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2018-05-01T01:30:49Z ealfonso: the hunchentoot problem I was having earlier was not a hunchentoot problem. I forgot to use (return ...) in a loop finally clause
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2018-05-01T01:36:50Z pierpa: ah, yes, that one happens to me too
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2018-05-01T01:40:30Z Xach: hee
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2018-05-01T01:50:46Z pfdietz: I wonder if the compiler should warn on that.
2018-05-01T01:52:25Z Bike: probably... kind of nontrivial to determine that something has no side effects though.
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2018-05-01T02:05:25Z pfdietz: In the general case, yes.  In special cases, no.
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2018-05-01T02:34:36Z ealfonso: is there a package naming convention for cffi wrapper libraries?
2018-05-01T02:42:59Z k-hos: prefixing the c libraries name with cl- is pretty common
2018-05-01T02:43:43Z ealfonso: k-hos thanks
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2018-05-01T02:49:23Z aeth: k-hos: That works until there's more than two
2018-05-01T02:49:55Z aeth: first cl-foo, then cl-foo42 because cl-foo is stuck on version 35 and then if you need a different foo 42.x binding you're in trouble
2018-05-01T02:50:18Z aeth: so probably check for name conflicts on quicklisp and github first
2018-05-01T02:50:36Z k-hos: I didn't say don't do your research
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2018-05-01T03:18:04Z pfdietz: Package local nicknames.  Please please please.
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2018-05-01T03:19:59Z ealfonso: pfdietz Package local nicknames?
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2018-05-01T05:54:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-01T05:54:37Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-01T05:55:34Z blep-on-external: afternoon beach!
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2018-05-01T05:59:45Z makomo: morning!
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2018-05-01T07:04:44Z phoe: Morning
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2018-05-01T08:16:47Z ealfonso: what is the difference between (SYMBOL-VALUE (FIND-SYMBOL (SYMBOL-NAME 'MY-SYM))) and MY-SYM?
2018-05-01T08:17:39Z phoe: ealfonso: the first seems to be horribly wrong for some reason
2018-05-01T08:18:11Z phoe: MY-SYM evaluates to the value of the variable named by the symbol MY-SYM
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2018-05-01T08:18:34Z phoe: (SYMBOL-NAME 'MY-SYM) ;=> "MY-SYM"
2018-05-01T08:18:41Z phoe: (FIND-SYMBOL "MY-SYM") ;=> MY-SYM
2018-05-01T08:19:14Z phoe: (SYMBOL-VALUE 'MY-SYM) ;=> global value of the variable named by the symbol MY-SYM
2018-05-01T08:19:48Z phoe: also, the first is affected by the current package where the other is not
2018-05-01T08:21:25Z ealfonso: phoe can I access the let-bound value of my-sym instead of the global?
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2018-05-01T08:22:24Z phoe: ealfonso: is your variable a lexical one or a dynamic one?
2018-05-01T08:22:32Z phoe: clhs symbol-value
2018-05-01T08:22:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm
2018-05-01T08:22:35Z phoe: see the examples there
2018-05-01T08:24:46Z ealfonso: can I update a lexical binding given a string name
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2018-05-01T08:24:57Z phoe: ealfonso: no.
2018-05-01T08:25:40Z phoe: the lexical bindings disappear after the code is compiled, so a string would have nothing to refer to.
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2018-05-01T08:27:52Z ealfonso: that's right. not sure what I was thinking
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2018-05-01T10:30:44Z _death: Xach: since you mentioned tic-80, check out my fork https://github.com/death/TIC-80 ;)
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2018-05-01T10:44:39Z _death: too bad I didn't have time for this last game jam
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2018-05-01T12:14:07Z Xach: Wow!
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2018-05-01T13:05:28Z beach: In a Cartesian product S1 X S2 X ... X Sn, what is the name of n?
2018-05-01T13:05:47Z beach: Arity? Rank?
2018-05-01T13:07:00Z dlowe: upper bound
2018-05-01T13:07:09Z beach: Nah.
2018-05-01T13:07:11Z _death: wikipedia says n-fold
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2018-05-01T13:07:27Z beach: Hmm.
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2018-05-01T13:11:50Z TMA: beach: I would say dimension.
2018-05-01T13:12:12Z beach: That sounds better.
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2018-05-01T13:12:37Z TMA: But then, I am not a native speaker.
2018-05-01T13:13:43Z dlowe: "set count" :D
2018-05-01T13:14:46Z TMA: It is related to vector space dimension ... n-tuples of (real) numbers make a vector space of dimension n
2018-05-01T13:15:38Z beach: Not quite.  If you compare to Common Lisp arrays, then the number of dimensions is called the rank.
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2018-05-01T13:16:16Z beach: Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.
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2018-05-01T13:20:31Z TMA: rank is a higher level concept. a matrix is has rank 2, because it is a m-tuple of n-tuples, with tensors having even higher ranks; in Common Lisp a vector is a tuple (and vice versa) and a vector has rank one regardles of the dimension thereof
2018-05-01T13:20:51Z beach: Right.
2018-05-01T13:22:38Z _berke_: hi guys, I get a "This is probably a bug in SBCL itself." from maxima under imaxima, see https://pastebin.com/p7n7BSa2 - any tips?
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2018-05-01T13:26:15Z pfdietz: Stack trace would be useful.
2018-05-01T13:26:30Z pfdietz: Where is the maxima repo?
2018-05-01T13:26:33Z _berke_: how do I get that?
2018-05-01T13:26:34Z _berke_: gdb?
2018-05-01T13:26:43Z pfdietz: No, the lisp stack trace.
2018-05-01T13:26:51Z _berke_: sorry I'm a bit of a CL noob
2018-05-01T13:27:12Z pfdietz: If errors are not caught in SBCL, a stack trace gets printed showing where the error was signalled.
2018-05-01T13:27:25Z pfdietz: This helps nail down where the bug is happening.
2018-05-01T13:28:06Z pfdietz: The other thing to do is find the function it could not compile and prune off as much of it as you can while still getting the error.  Put a copy of it into its own file and edit that down.
2018-05-01T13:28:25Z _berke_: I setf'd *debugger-hook* to nil, now I'm in the debugger.  can I request a bt from there?
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2018-05-01T13:29:06Z _berke_: https://pastebin.com/k8BFRWSa
2018-05-01T13:29:47Z pfdietz: Then submit a bug at https://launchpad.net/sbcl or send it to sbcl-bugs@lists.sourceforge.net
2018-05-01T13:30:17Z _berke_: thanks, the thing is when I run maxima from the shell (ie not under imaxima from emacs) it works fine.
2018-05-01T13:31:20Z pfdietz: Not sure why you're not getting the stack track.  Try aborting to the top level REPL and manually loading that file with (load "/usr/local/share/maxima/5.41.0/share/pdiff/pdiff.lisp")
2018-05-01T13:31:30Z pfdietz: Or perhaps (compile-file <that string>)
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2018-05-01T13:33:43Z _berke_: I think the emacs maxima init file does things to catch debugger output
2018-05-01T13:33:48Z pfdietz: If you put that function in its own file, be sure to include a (in-package ...) form so it's read in the correct package.
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2018-05-01T13:34:15Z _berke_: done, I isolated the bit that causes the error
2018-05-01T13:35:05Z _berke_: https://pastebin.com/MrJbx1Ea
2018-05-01T13:35:06Z pfdietz: I assume this is the official source:  https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/master/tree/INSTALL
2018-05-01T13:35:44Z _berke_: pdfietz: I used apt-get source under debian (5.41.0-3-debian)
2018-05-01T13:36:12Z pfdietz: I have to head off, but I'll leave a note in #sbcl about this.
2018-05-01T13:36:17Z _berke_: reason is that I wanted maxima to run under SBCL.  much faster
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2018-05-01T13:36:36Z _berke_: thank
2018-05-01T13:39:36Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with crane? http://borretti.me/crane/
2018-05-01T13:39:44Z _berke_: is cat foo.lisp bar.lisp >baz.lisp and then (load "baz.lisp") equivalent to (load "foo.lisp") (load "bar.lisp") ?
2018-05-01T13:39:59Z jmercouris: _berke_: no
2018-05-01T13:40:33Z jmercouris: also you generally want to avoid manually loading lisp files, instead you should use a system
2018-05-01T13:40:52Z jmercouris: so the de-facto system is "ASDF" which stands for "another system definition facility"
2018-05-01T13:40:54Z _berke_: jmercouris: I understand but I'm chasing a bug that involves two files, is there a way to place them in a single file for an easier-to-use bug case?
2018-05-01T13:41:33Z jmercouris: _berke_: it will not be the same thing, but you might try what you are suggesting, and the bug might still appear
2018-05-01T13:41:41Z Bike: that's a pretty primitive way to do things, but i don't see why the concatenated file would be much different
2018-05-01T13:41:58Z Bike: it would only effect, like, *load-truename* and stuff, as far as i can think of
2018-05-01T13:42:15Z _berke_: jmercouris: it indeed did
2018-05-01T13:43:40Z jmercouris: I'd be pretty skeptical that it is a bug in SBCL
2018-05-01T13:43:45Z jmercouris: it's most likely a user bug
2018-05-01T13:43:57Z jmercouris: at least statistically speaking, but it is easy to blame the implementation
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2018-05-01T13:45:02Z ukari: i saw a code `(as:delay lambda time)`, i try to quickload 'as' but fail
2018-05-01T13:45:06Z _berke_: I hope so.  how can I check if any native code (e.g. shared libraries compiled from unsafe languages) were loaded?
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2018-05-01T13:48:11Z pjb: ukari: "AS" is the name of a package (probably a short nickname actually).  quickload loads systems. It expects a system name, not a package name.
2018-05-01T13:48:26Z pjb: System names may be unrelated to and very different from package names.
2018-05-01T13:49:38Z pjb: ukari: also, not all systems are on quicklisp, and not all packages are defined in systems.
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2018-05-01T13:51:36Z pjb: ukari: so you have 1- locate the name of the system where this package is defined.  Then you may try quickload on it. If it doesn't work: 2- locate the source of that system (perhaps a git repository, perhaps a tarball somewhere). Then you can clone it or untar it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and try quickload again.  If not a system, then locate the sources, download them, and either use a load script provided to compile and lo
2018-05-01T13:51:36Z pjb: sources, or write a asd system yourself.
2018-05-01T13:52:01Z pjb: Be sure to contribute the asd system if you write it, so it may eventually be integrated in quicklisp.
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2018-05-01T13:55:24Z _berke_: I reduced the bug as much as I could.  https://pastebin.com/pCsLJNrt
2018-05-01T13:55:41Z _berke_: it seems to be the combination of that style-warning-suppressor macro and the memq definition
2018-05-01T13:56:57Z _berke_: transcript: https://pastebin.com/92cSATWH - thanks for your help, gotta earn some money now
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2018-05-01T14:02:12Z ukari: thanks you, pjb. i found this package in system cl-async
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2018-05-01T14:17:34Z light2yellow: I was reading LISP 1.5 manual, appendix H ( https://books.google.com/books?id=68j6lEJjMQwC&pg=PA91 ) talks about recursion implementation. is this the first occurrence of a programming language implementing recursive functions? from what I can understand, it doesn't differ much from call stacks we have now
2018-05-01T14:20:53Z Bike: i believe so, yes.
2018-05-01T14:20:55Z tfb: light2yellow: that's interesting: it might be the first implementation
2018-05-01T14:21:23Z light2yellow: thanks, Bike
2018-05-01T14:21:48Z Bike: quick google suggests turing described it with return addresses https://www.quora.com/Who-invented-the-call-stack
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2018-05-01T14:22:07Z Bike: i think i've heard lisp was the first thing with a stack with local variables, but i dunno
2018-05-01T14:22:28Z Bike: might have been IPL something
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2018-05-01T14:25:41Z tfb: Bike: yes, I think IPL if that counts as not being just a special assembler
2018-05-01T14:26:22Z jmercouris: is Fernando Boretti ever on this channel?
2018-05-01T14:26:46Z jackdaniel: yes, he comes with nick eudoxia
2018-05-01T14:27:13Z jmercouris: I thought the name looked familiar, thanks
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2018-05-01T14:29:33Z Xach got eudoxia and eugenia confused :(
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2018-05-01T14:32:18Z light2yellow: right, so, a paper called "A brief history of stack" says that IPL had the stack, but "its usage had to be explicitly described when a subroutine was called". McCarthy made it being handled automatically. at this point the paper references his "History of LISP" which says a few sentences about SAVE and UNSAVE, on which the manual elaborates
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2018-05-01T14:39:34Z equwal: Hello, I have a question: Is ther a way to have a generic function with polyarity without hand-writing dispatching code? I want to have a function like (x 1) do something, while (x 1 1) does something else. Defgeneric doesn't really seem to do the job. I was able to hand-write some dispatching code, but I feel like this is already a feature somewhere that I am not aware of.
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2018-05-01T14:40:39Z Xach: equwal: no, it is a feature not to have variable arity. the name and argument count & names are the interface. if the argument count & names are different, it must be a new function with different behavior.
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2018-05-01T14:41:19Z Xach: equwal: i can imagine some ways you might reach your desire - what is your specific circumstance?
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2018-05-01T14:42:45Z equwal: My ad-hoc way of doing this was to define a hash table with (make-hash-table :test #'equalp) which is searched for by a list of the function name and the arguments, like (gethash (list func spec-list)). I used some macros to abstract this away a bit.
2018-05-01T14:43:14Z Xach: equwal: i mean, why do you want what you want? what is the operation you want to perform on a variable number of arguments?
2018-05-01T14:43:38Z equwal: I can't use &optional in this case either. My circumstance is I want apl functions like RHO ⍴ to accept one argument (⍴ 2) which is an empty array, or (⍴ 2 2) which is the array #(2 2) for example.
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2018-05-01T14:43:58Z tfb: equwal: a terrible solution I used was to write a wrapper which has an &rest arg, which calls into an implementation GF passing the length of the &rest arg as the first argument which is dispatched on with eql methods.
2018-05-01T14:44:06Z tfb: (I told you it was terrible)
2018-05-01T14:44:50Z Xach: at any rate, no, CLOS does not work like that.
2018-05-01T14:45:00Z Xach: there is no hidden thing you are missing
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2018-05-01T14:46:07Z equwal: Okay thank you, I will keep hand-writing the dispatch code so I can this.
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2018-05-01T15:01:59Z Xach: Hmm, I don't think I've seen this error in SBCL before: "<variable> is read-only in this environment"
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2018-05-01T15:28:16Z ealfonso: is there a good way to turn an alist into the arguments of a function whose argument list only defines a proper subset of the alist keys as &key arguments, without writing a macro myself? e.g alist: ((:var1 val1) (:var2 val2) (:var3 val3)) function: (defun my-fun (&rest args &key var1 var2) ...)
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2018-05-01T15:29:09Z beach: clhs :allow-other-keys
2018-05-01T15:29:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for :allow-other-keys.
2018-05-01T15:29:13Z beach: Bah.
2018-05-01T15:29:18Z mfiano: add &allow-other-keys and apply the converted plist?
2018-05-01T15:30:36Z beach: ealfonso: You can pass :allow-other-keys t in addition to your keyword arguments.
2018-05-01T15:30:49Z beach: ealfonso: That will suppress the check for valid keyword arguments.
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2018-05-01T15:34:24Z beach: I.e. (apply #'my-fun (list* :allow-other-keys t (reduce #'append alist :from-end t)))
2018-05-01T15:34:53Z ealfonso: beach thanks
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2018-05-01T15:36:06Z pfdietz2: Failed AVER in the sbcl compiler is always a sbcl bug, even if the user code is bad.
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2018-05-01T15:43:27Z beach: ealfonso: Anytime.
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2018-05-01T15:44:52Z ealfonso: beach how about binding only unknown keys instead of all keys? I'm using (progn (defun my-fun (&rest args &key var1 var2 &allow-other-keys) ...) (my-fun :var1 1 :var3 3)) but this binds all args. I guess I would need to do this myself?
2018-05-01T15:45:29Z beach: ealfonso: You didn't tell us that you were allowed to modify my-fun.
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2018-05-01T15:47:36Z ealfonso: beach I see, you meant I could add :allow-other-keys t from the caller, which I didn't know about. but I had forgotten about &allow-other-keys, which I can use since I'm defining the function
2018-05-01T15:48:08Z beach: I see.
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2018-05-01T15:51:35Z beach: Then, instead of &rest args, why don't you just build the list of the explicit keyword parameters, i.e. (list :var1 val1 var2 val2).
2018-05-01T15:53:32Z ealfonso: beach I'm basically trying to extract a command-line argument list, by cherry picking some and handling them in functoin A, then proxy all other arguments to another function B. this way, if I add more arguments to function B, I can simply pass them from the command line without the overhead of defining it explictly as a keyword argument in A
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2018-05-01T15:53:58Z ealfonso: s/it/them
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2018-05-01T15:54:30Z beach: Sure, that's a standard trick.
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2018-05-01T15:55:57Z ealfonso: beach but function B will crash if it gets unexpected keyword arguments... I guess I can just add :allow-other-keys t to the call to B
2018-05-01T15:56:13Z beach: Yes.
2018-05-01T15:57:40Z ealfonso: beach mfiano that worked. thanks
2018-05-01T15:57:58Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-05-01T17:43:21Z _berke_: how can I get a summary description of what a system is in quicklisp? ql:system-apropos gives a list but only with the names
2018-05-01T17:43:39Z Xach: _berke_: Unfortunately there isn't a good way right now, aside from googling the name and "lisp"
2018-05-01T17:43:47Z Xach: _berke_: quickdocs.org helps a bit
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2018-05-01T17:44:48Z _berke_: thanks.  any recommendations for a system providing a set data structure? (eg tree-based)
2018-05-01T17:45:19Z _berke_: I see there is map-set
2018-05-01T17:46:35Z p_l: _berke_: check out cl-ds?
2018-05-01T17:47:35Z _berke_: p_l: where is that?  I don't see it in quicklisp
2018-05-01T17:48:17Z _berke_: looks like fset is what I want
2018-05-01T17:48:23Z p_l: _berke_: checking, I know the devs but forgot where the library was ;)
2018-05-01T17:48:30Z p_l: and yes, for sets FSet is quite good
2018-05-01T17:50:39Z ukari: is there any way to detect if a expersion is in a lambda-list when it comes from defmacro's form?
2018-05-01T17:51:42Z ukari: www.heypasteit.com/clip/0IJK0X
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2018-05-01T18:06:28Z p_l: _berke_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
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2018-05-01T18:17:11Z shka: sadly, as for now there is no reasonable set in cl-ds
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2018-05-01T18:17:49Z shka: just functional vector (radix tree), functional dictionary (hamt) and metric space set (egnat)
2018-05-01T18:18:03Z jsjolen`: Hi, just out of curiosity: Why can't SBCL compile (let ((x 0)) (dotimes (i 1000) (incf x))) this down to (setf x 1000) (off-by-1 mistakes excluded)?
2018-05-01T18:18:05Z shka: plus bunch of algorithms, ranges and stuff
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2018-05-01T18:20:11Z shka: jsjolen`: because nobody implemented such optimization in compiler i guess!
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2018-05-01T18:21:19Z jsjolen`: shka: Meh :-).
2018-05-01T18:22:18Z MichaelRaskin: If you need that optimisation, maybe you should use Maxima first to simplify your calculations, then write Lisp code for SBCL…
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2018-05-01T18:23:27Z shka: jsjolen`: honestly though, code for that needs to be maintained and feature does not look whole lot useful
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2018-05-01T18:23:44Z shka: anyway, do we have recordings from esl somewhere already?
2018-05-01T18:24:00Z White_Flame: well, you never know what macros might generate in terms of degenerately collapsable code
2018-05-01T18:24:20Z jsjolen`: I don't need it, I'm just legit curious as to why it doesn't do that. Whether it's because it's actually deviously difficult to solve for the general case (heck, what would the general case be tehre?) for all languages or for CL in particular
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2018-05-01T18:25:37Z jsjolen`: Also nah, no ESL vids soon as far as I know shka  :-/
2018-05-01T18:25:50Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if you have macros known to generate arithmetic expressions, feeding the output to Maxima is feasible… Maintaining a computer algebra system inside compiler sounds like a duplication of work.
2018-05-01T18:26:02Z White_Flame: an incf loop isn't an arithmetic expression
2018-05-01T18:26:04Z MichaelRaskin: Although cycles are even worse…
2018-05-01T18:26:38Z Bike: people don't usually write code like that
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2018-05-01T18:27:13Z jsjolen`: White_Flame: Looks like \sum_{i=1}^{1000} 1 to me :-P
2018-05-01T18:27:50Z White_Flame: while it's functionally equivalent, it's not actually that formula
2018-05-01T18:28:13Z White_Flame: as there's no 'sum' operation concept in lisp, besides (+ ,@rest)
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2018-05-01T18:28:45Z jsjolen`: Sure. Also, if you do think of it as 'that formula' then it's easy to see that it's a bit silly to implement that specific kind of optimization in the compiler, it'd be more apt to fit it into a sum-function along with compiler macros (for example)
2018-05-01T18:29:12Z White_Flame: ah, I guess LOOP does have sum
2018-05-01T18:30:34Z White_Flame: and that compiles down to an iteration still
2018-05-01T18:30:53Z Bike: intuitively i'd say it's rare for people to write code like "do this n times" if it could be "do this once, n times as much"
2018-05-01T18:30:56Z White_Flame: in any case, SBCL's most effective optimizations are around type inference
2018-05-01T18:31:29Z White_Flame: they're quite aware that there are many other optimizations not implemented
2018-05-01T18:32:04Z White_Flame: the difficulty in this particular case is proving the scope of the variable being mutated, as being fully owned by the loop
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2018-05-01T18:32:15Z White_Flame: although this should be a lot easier in Lisp than something like C
2018-05-01T18:32:30Z Bike: you'd also have to reconstruct that it's "do this n times" from the macroexpansion.
2018-05-01T18:32:37Z White_Flame: as well has knowing which operations have which side effects, and being able to execute them safely at compile-time
2018-05-01T18:32:48Z White_Flame: Bike: yes
2018-05-01T18:32:50Z aeth: Bike: But the more optimizations the compiler has, the more people's idiomatic styles can change.
2018-05-01T18:33:11Z Bike: i don't think that general idea is applicable here
2018-05-01T18:33:19Z aeth: e.g. if you're writing very fast CL, you're probably only going to use type declarations for sequences and numbers because the type inference is probably going to solve the rest.
2018-05-01T18:33:33Z Bike: okay but i'm talking about this particular optimization
2018-05-01T18:33:34Z aeth: But if the compiler didn't do any of that you'd say that idiomatic high-performance CL types everything
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2018-05-01T18:44:03Z Xach: 762222
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2018-05-01T18:44:55Z MichaelRaskin: Short numeric PINs for online banking are bad, and someone should feel bad
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2018-05-01T18:45:56Z Xach: TOTP
2018-05-01T18:46:25Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: but then someone would have to update the size and type of a field in an old COBOL or mainframe assembly program from the 1980s or earlier.
2018-05-01T18:46:29Z MichaelRaskin: Ah OK then.
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2018-05-01T18:47:19Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: 6-digit PINs in 1980s? What were they used for? I thought card PINs are 4-digit (for physical presence case)
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2018-05-01T18:48:07Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: 6-digit would be extra secure, I guess
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2018-05-01T18:53:32Z Xof: Bike: would you like to see something horrible?
2018-05-01T18:54:51Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/
2018-05-01T18:54:57Z Xof: oops, well, that is horrible, but
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2018-05-01T18:55:07Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/fsm.lisp
2018-05-01T18:56:25Z jackdaniel: I like the text style of "Department of Computing" - reminds me of MS Word
2018-05-01T18:56:47Z White_Flame: I find it odd that the image isn't a CG render
2018-05-01T18:56:48Z p_l: IBM Mainframes used to have 8 character password size maximum
2018-05-01T18:58:10Z Bike: yes, i love horrible things
2018-05-01T18:58:48Z Xof: (a) a valid (I think) use of method-combination :arguments
2018-05-01T18:58:49Z MichaelRaskin: So, did the talk launch a new round of «how many turing complete facilities does CL have»?
2018-05-01T18:59:10Z Bike: yes, this is pretty horrible
2018-05-01T18:59:22Z Xof: (b) a chance to use my pet favourite feature: dynamically scoped named-by-symbol functions
2018-05-01T18:59:31Z Bike: the restart-bind part is confusing me more than the :arguments, yes
2018-05-01T18:59:58Z Bike: oh, there's a loop. ok.
2018-05-01T19:01:12Z Xof: hm, it's possible I don't need it
2018-05-01T19:01:24Z Xof: are the restarts still active while executing the body of the restart function, I wonder?
2018-05-01T19:01:29Z Xof: wouldn't that be neat?
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2018-05-01T19:07:13Z Xof: Bike: you're quite right, the loop is unnecessary
2018-05-01T19:07:20Z Bike: what have i wrought
2018-05-01T19:07:47Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/fsm2.lisp
2018-05-01T19:08:24Z Xof: I think I might have a winner for the next obfuscated lisp code competition
2018-05-01T19:13:17Z pjb: method-qualifiers is a symbol exported by CL! There's no need to make this code SBCL-specific!
2018-05-01T19:13:40Z Xof: so it is
2018-05-01T19:15:36Z Bike: method-qualifiers and function-keywords are the functions where you're like, why is this in cl instead of mop
2018-05-01T19:17:10Z Bike: i don't think you need the block
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2018-05-01T19:18:40Z Bike: also, (restart-case (find-restart 'x) (x ())) => "Unhandled memory fault" in sbcl, that's nice
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2018-05-01T19:25:17Z Xof: Bike: restarts have dynamic extent; don't return them
2018-05-01T19:25:36Z Bike: sure, i'm just not used to getting faults
2018-05-01T19:25:43Z Xof: I (think I) need the block because I need some way to do a non-local transfer
2018-05-01T19:25:53Z Xof: restart functions in restart-bind don't do a non-local transfer automatically
2018-05-01T19:26:02Z Bike: but you don't need to do a non local transfer
2018-05-01T19:26:20Z Xof: oh, you're right
2018-05-01T19:26:25Z Xof: I needed it earlier when I had a loop
2018-05-01T19:26:31Z Xof: this code gets simpler and simpler
2018-05-01T19:26:37Z Bike: very elegant
2018-05-01T19:27:29Z _death: so restarts as a poor man's computed goto?
2018-05-01T19:27:51Z Xof: yes
2018-05-01T19:28:04Z Bike: you don't need state to be shared either, so just `(restart-bind ... (lambda () (let ((state (call-method ...)))...))
2018-05-01T19:28:24Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/even-as.lisp
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2018-05-01T19:28:58Z Bike: haha
2018-05-01T19:29:07Z Xof: the new non-loopy version uses stack, sadly
2018-05-01T19:29:29Z Bike: yeah, no tail calls
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2018-05-01T19:31:05Z Xof: needs a typep check for (and symbol (not null))
2018-05-01T19:31:21Z Xof: ok, this is clearly the way forward
2018-05-01T19:31:30Z Xof: all my lisp programming from now on will be done in method combinations
2018-05-01T19:32:06Z pjb: Method combinations are monads.  You're switching to functional programming :-)
2018-05-01T19:33:43Z Xach: i think there's a galaxy brain to be made here
2018-05-01T19:34:31Z random-nick: Xof: needs more change-class
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2018-05-01T19:44:21Z Xof: haha
2018-05-01T19:44:35Z Xof: googling for method combination uses, what do I find?
2018-05-01T19:44:52Z Xof: I find an article from 2014 about a fancy method combination for HTTP requests
2018-05-01T19:44:55Z Xof: punchline: I wrote it
2018-05-01T19:45:05Z Xof: extra punchline: it uses :arguments
2018-05-01T19:45:42Z MichaelRaskin: Here we expect third punchline: methods combined are PUT and GET
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2018-05-01T19:55:24Z White_Flame: methods are overdoses on meth
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2018-05-01T19:57:34Z _death: Xof: I remember Costanza's BETA method combination
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2018-05-01T20:05:38Z random-nick: hm, why is the standard method combination called STANDARD and not CAR?
2018-05-01T20:07:34Z Bike: why would it be called car
2018-05-01T20:08:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: better question
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2018-05-01T20:08:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: why is #'car called #'car?
2018-05-01T20:08:55Z Bike: some old machine's instruction mnemonics
2018-05-01T20:09:21Z LiamH: "contents of the address register" IIRC
2018-05-01T20:09:24Z White_Flame: a register had 2 fields it could be broken up into, the "address" part, and "decrement" part
2018-05-01T20:09:32Z White_Flame: so they used that for the cons cell
2018-05-01T20:09:45Z p_l: it was a bit more than that ;)
2018-05-01T20:10:04Z p_l: but IIRC it wasn't instruction mnemonics, but standard macros in assembler
2018-05-01T20:10:06Z White_Flame: yeah, more bits than that ;)
2018-05-01T20:10:23Z p_l: CPR, CAR, CDR, CTR
2018-05-01T20:10:33Z p_l: for total of 36bits
2018-05-01T20:10:39Z _death: what if HUNKs replaced CONSes
2018-05-01T20:10:53Z White_Flame: then you get an Amiga
2018-05-01T20:11:09Z p_l: _death: then the language would be probably much less usable
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2018-05-01T20:11:20Z p_l: what do you put into a HUNK when programming, for example?
2018-05-01T20:11:31Z p_l: White_Flame: MACLISP had HUNK data type, iirc
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2018-05-01T20:12:09Z White_Flame: yeah, sort of like a fixed-length tuple
2018-05-01T20:14:24Z _death: p_l: not sure what you mean..
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2018-05-01T20:20:22Z p_l: _death: CONS cells build source of Lisp programs
2018-05-01T20:24:14Z jmercouris: Petit_Dejeuner: Nobody knows the origin of car, it has been lost to time
2018-05-01T20:24:17Z _death: and what is the big difference between CONS and HUNK2?
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2018-05-01T20:33:19Z p_l: _death: I'd say the built-in semantics of list handling
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2018-05-01T20:44:03Z phoe: Xof: what in the holy hell
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2018-05-01T20:44:39Z phoe: is this a method combination that sets state based on method calls and then uses restarts to find its next state?
2018-05-01T20:45:42Z jasom: phoe: that's the obvious way to implement a state machine in common lisp, isn't it?
2018-05-01T20:46:12Z p_l: :D
2018-05-01T20:46:39Z rme: "First – and understand this, Harry, 'cause it's very important – not all wizards are good."
2018-05-01T20:47:04Z jasom: restarts are *so* close to being continuations :(
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2018-05-01T20:47:48Z MichaelRaskin: Close enough for an ELS lightning talk about that
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2018-05-01T20:48:09Z phoe: hint: there already was one
2018-05-01T20:48:22Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, that's what I meant
2018-05-01T20:48:40Z MichaelRaskin: Thanks
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2018-05-01T20:49:49Z jasom: I happen to like cooperatively scheduled lightweight threads as a programming model, so the lack of them (or continuations which are nearly isomorphic to that) in CL has always bothered me a bit. cl-cont works, but code walkers tend to bitrot.
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2018-05-01T20:50:23Z phoe: ...I still cannot understand this code after staring at it for ten minutes
2018-05-01T20:50:30Z White_Flame: yeah, I'd love to have lightweight threads that share the dynamic bindings of their launchers
2018-05-01T20:50:54Z MichaelRaskin: Trust the Lizard: Agnostic Lizard is a codewalker written in a way that has a chance not to bitrot
2018-05-01T20:50:56Z White_Flame: as in sharing the actual bindings, not just the current value at launch
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2018-05-01T20:55:02Z Bike: cooperative green threads sounds easier than continuations
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2018-05-01T20:55:25Z Bike: phoe: like xof said, you can just think of restart-bind as dynamic function bindings.
2018-05-01T20:55:42Z shrdlu68 thinks he has seen this exact discussion here before
2018-05-01T20:55:52Z Bike: nothing is new under the sun
2018-05-01T20:56:04Z phoe: Bike: yes, I know that one
2018-05-01T20:56:19Z phoe: I'm just munching on the mapcar lambda now
2018-05-01T20:56:21Z Bike: so what don't you get then
2018-05-01T20:56:26Z Bike: "it's pretty straightforward"
2018-05-01T20:57:14Z phoe: well shit, three years of doing Lisp and I can't understand a simple d-m-c
2018-05-01T20:57:22Z phoe: time to retire
2018-05-01T20:58:14Z shrdlu68: phoe: What's d-m-c?
2018-05-01T20:58:20Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: have you heard that one song "it's all just a bunch of history repeating" I want to say it is by propellerheads
2018-05-01T20:58:20Z phoe: shrdlu68: define-method-combination
2018-05-01T20:58:35Z Bike: define method combination, the lisp operator with the highest complication/usedness ratio
2018-05-01T20:59:30Z Bike: phoe: you can always compute-effective-method to look at the expansion
2018-05-01T20:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: green threads have to be integrated deeply with the runtime for them to be efficient
2018-05-01T20:59:59Z phoe: Bike: thanks, I'll do that tomorrow
2018-05-01T21:00:21Z phoe goes to sleep for now
2018-05-01T21:00:38Z Xof: now, I hope that all implementors use this as a challenge to implement invoke-restart efficiently
2018-05-01T21:00:40Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: and the efficiency considerations end up affecting the language semantics, as in Erlang and Go
2018-05-01T21:00:54Z Xof: wouldn't do to do a linear search over restart bindings now
2018-05-01T21:01:46Z MichaelRaskin: Xof: extrapolating from the fact that remove-duplicates is sometimes quadratic…
2018-05-01T21:01:46Z Bike: so, what, a hash table?
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2018-05-01T21:05:59Z phoe: a hash table from restart names to restarts? sounds much better
2018-05-01T21:06:04Z phoe goes to sleep, take two
2018-05-01T21:06:12Z jmercouris: can we go deeper?
2018-05-01T21:06:13Z Xof: we should be able to build a perfect hash
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2018-05-01T21:06:44Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I had never, but it's the glorious 21st century so now it's playing.
2018-05-01T21:06:50Z Xof: or stuff things onto the symbol-plists
2018-05-01T21:06:52Z Xof: so many choices
2018-05-01T21:07:07Z jmercouris: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should
2018-05-01T21:08:07Z Xof: shrdlu68: I apologise for your déja vu.  I've been here, on and off, for ~18 years; there's a decent chance I've said the same things once or twice
2018-05-01T21:08:31Z Bike: well, i mean, it's dynamic
2018-05-01T21:08:38Z Bike: guess you could have like a sequence of hash tables
2018-05-01T21:09:10Z jmercouris: perhaps you could just jump the pc to a random location and begin execution, hope that you are in the right place, I mean, sometimes you will be
2018-05-01T21:09:32Z Mutex7: 18 years? D:
2018-05-01T21:09:33Z jmercouris: with that, I'm done :D
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2018-05-01T21:11:10Z shrdlu68: Almost as long as the standard itself.
2018-05-01T21:11:32Z Xof: now I feel properly old
2018-05-01T21:11:41Z jmercouris: age is just a number :)
2018-05-01T21:11:57Z jmercouris: there's that whole business with the telomeres, but try not to think about that ;)
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2018-05-01T21:12:35Z p_l: ... I think I've been here ... 10~13 years?
2018-05-01T21:12:50Z Mutex7: Sounds like forever to me. Am only a recent CS grad. New to lispy things as well. Kinda hard to imagine coding for that long.
2018-05-01T21:13:28Z shrdlu68: p_l: Half as long as the lifetime of a queen in an anthill.
2018-05-01T21:14:36Z Bike: depends on the species
2018-05-01T21:14:52Z Xof: luckily I have been coding for 0 of those 18 years
2018-05-01T21:15:17Z Xof: maybe some day I will get a programming job
2018-05-01T21:15:22Z jmercouris: Xof: are you only involved in language design?
2018-05-01T21:15:27Z jmercouris: theoretical computer science?
2018-05-01T21:15:50Z Xof: no, mostly I do music computing / machine listening / teaching
2018-05-01T21:16:00Z Xof: lisp is a hobby
2018-05-01T21:16:02Z Xof: sort of
2018-05-01T21:17:59Z Mutex7: Even if you get a job programming, it's really hard to convince people to use lisp :(
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2018-05-01T21:18:14Z Mutex7: People seem allergic to it for some odd reason.
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2018-05-01T21:20:04Z shrdlu68: Heh, "Odd reason".
2018-05-01T21:21:12Z jmercouris: people are afraid of it, foreign syntax, lots of industry promises in AI, none fulfilled
2018-05-01T21:21:16Z jmercouris: it just fell out of fashion
2018-05-01T21:21:22Z jmercouris: people do what they know, and most do not know lisp
2018-05-01T21:21:47Z _death: speaking of déja vu..
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2018-05-01T21:22:07Z jmercouris: yes, sorry for beating the dead horse
2018-05-01T21:22:15Z jmercouris: I am going to sleep now, goodnight everyone!
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2018-05-01T22:03:44Z White_Flame: Xach: if I deploy an image, built with quicklisp, then at runtime on another box I want to dynamically load through QL more stuff.. is the ability to install QL only in the  quicklisp:quickstart stuff from the initial file, or can I test & install from inside the "normal" ql package running on a foreign machine?
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2018-05-01T22:14:41Z White_Flame: (I know I asked something similar a long time ago, but given the complexity we never went down that path.  It's become more necessary now)
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2018-05-01T22:49:30Z pillton: minion: memo for equwal: Specialization store can dispatch on arity. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-2:-Optional,-Keyword-and-Rest-Arguments#rest-arguments
2018-05-01T22:49:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell equwal when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-05-01T22:49:32Z jasom: Mutex7: all you have to do to become an old programmer is not quit programming :D
2018-05-01T22:50:27Z Mutex7: Yeah, I'll probably get there one day.
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2018-05-01T23:03:34Z White_Flame: how fun to try to debug: A function with declared result type NIL returned:  BORDEAUX-THREADS:CONDITION-WAIT
2018-05-01T23:04:41Z White_Flame: oh wait, is that returning a symbol?  thanks, rubber duck
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2018-05-02T00:00:02Z mathZ: 666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
2018-05-02T00:00:16Z mathZ: sorry, keyboard problem
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2018-05-02T00:08:35Z Lord_Nightmare: not cat?
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2018-05-02T00:17:16Z MichaelRaskin: Obviously too consistent for a cat
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2018-05-02T00:39:39Z vsync peeks his head up
2018-05-02T00:39:41Z vsync: so who went to ELS and was it fun?
2018-05-02T00:40:16Z Bike: yeah
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2018-05-02T00:41:37Z rme: I think it was a great success.
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2018-05-02T00:44:17Z p_l: it was great fun
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2018-05-02T00:48:33Z vsync wanted to go so bad
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2018-05-02T00:50:31Z vsync: almost grabbed a plane ticket at the last minute even but just work craziness
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2018-05-02T01:02:18Z White_Flame: hmm, when I re-evaluate my dying function without changes, it stops crashing
2018-05-02T01:02:20Z White_Flame: fun
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2018-05-02T01:23:13Z p_l: vsync: if you want to go, best is to make reservations *now*, or ASAP, so you have ready-made excuse for a whole year of planning meetings
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2018-05-02T01:23:49Z p_l: The only reason I ended up going was that someone bothered me about tickets for so long that I ended up buying the plane tickets in january
2018-05-02T01:23:53Z vsync: haha
2018-05-02T01:24:10Z vsync does not need to be on more committees
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2018-05-02T01:25:28Z rme: April 1st and 2nd, 2019, Genoa, Italy.  Put it on your calendar.
2018-05-02T01:26:09Z p_l: rme: I might have verified that free PPC VMs for CCL might be still available... :D
2018-05-02T01:26:33Z p_l: vsync: well, you don't have to be on any committee, just saying that it gives you a pre-baked reason to go :P
2018-05-02T01:28:22Z rme: p_l: I'll be interested to know.  I'm sure there's a fair amount of PPC bitrot, but maybe resurrecting the port wouldn't be too terribly difficult.
2018-05-02T01:30:25Z rme: holy smokes, that conference hotel is expensive!
2018-05-02T01:31:13Z p_l: rme: Raptor Computing Systems is getting more and more hardware free, and VMs are something they can provide quite easily (they are even building their own cloud/VPS setup)
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2018-05-02T01:52:13Z p_l: rme: right people to talk with would tpearson on #talos-workstation, here on freenode
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2018-05-02T03:22:21Z pierpa: btw, who are the hosts in Genoa?  I don't know of any lispers up there
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2018-05-02T03:24:51Z rme: It's being co-located with the conference <Programming> 2019.
2018-05-02T03:25:07Z pierpa: ah. Let me check...
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2018-05-02T03:27:12Z vtomole: clhs *print-circle*
2018-05-02T03:27:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
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2018-05-02T03:30:22Z defunkydrummer: will next year's Lisp conference be in Genova, Italy?
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2018-05-02T03:34:15Z pierpa: yes
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2018-05-02T03:35:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-02T03:36:34Z pierpa: 'morning
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2018-05-02T03:39:23Z ealfonso: I'm on a relatively old debian and I'm getting this quicklisp error when loading a dependency cffi-toolchain https://pastebin.com/HTyd7PfS my ql is recent: "2017-03-06", installed directly and not via apt-get. this doesn't happen on a newer system. any idea why or what I may need to update?
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2018-05-02T03:40:10Z defunkydrummer: good morning dear RS
2018-05-02T03:42:25Z defunkydrummer: ealfonso: if the error is on UIOP then perhaps the ASDF version you have is old... ?
2018-05-02T03:42:30Z defunkydrummer: UIOP is part of ASDF
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2018-05-02T03:44:19Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: did you install sbcl using apt-get?
2018-05-02T03:44:37Z defunkydrummer: holy shit, it's PuercoPop online, this is my lucky day
2018-05-02T03:44:54Z loke: Hello PuercoPop
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2018-05-02T03:45:26Z PuercoPop: Oi defunkydrummer, yeah I fixed my irc bouncer last week ^_^
2018-05-02T03:45:29Z PuercoPop: hi loke
2018-05-02T03:46:13Z ealfonso: PuercoPop yes, SBCL 1.2.4.debian. This doesn't seem to happen on SBCL 1.3.14.debian. I'll try upgrading
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2018-05-02T03:47:49Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: don't install from debian. It is really old. Use whatever SBCL apt-get installed to bootstrap SBCL from source. You just have to run sh make.sh --prefix=/usr/local --fancy and uninstall the APT version before you do the sudo make install
2018-05-02T03:48:21Z PuercoPop: also make sure that you haven't pulled any libraries with apt-get. They are bound to give you unnecessary trouble
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2018-05-02T03:54:40Z defunkydrummer: ealfonso: Or, if you are a lazy noobie as me, you can just download and install Portacle, and everything will work smoothly from the get go
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2018-05-02T04:01:59Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer thanks. it takes a while to compile
2018-05-02T04:02:20Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer especially on my cheap slow VPS
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2018-05-02T04:04:04Z pfdietz: ealfonso: you asked what package local nicknames were.
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2018-05-02T04:04:31Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: i want to know too; i thought package nicknames applied over the whole system
2018-05-02T04:05:00Z pfdietz: Package local nicknames are an extension to Common Lisp that help solve the package name & nickname collision problem.
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2018-05-02T04:05:36Z pfdietz: Package names are a global space, and if you look at quicklisp (for example) there are lots of systems there that are incompatible because of name collisions.
2018-05-02T04:05:56Z pfdietz: What package local nicknames do is provide a separate namespace within each package.
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2018-05-02T04:06:21Z pfdietz: These names are active only when *PACKAGE* is bound to that particular package.
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2018-05-02T04:07:45Z pfdietz: (defpackage "FOO" (:local-nicknames ("B" "BAR")) ...) means that when *PACKAGE* is bound to the FOO package, one can use B as a nickname for BAR.
2018-05-02T04:08:21Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: allright, but how portable is that? I know Allegro CL practically solves all package problems, but what about the other impls ?
2018-05-02T04:08:28Z pfdietz: Those short nicknames no longer pollute the global package namespace.  The global package names can be made large and unlikely to collide.
2018-05-02T04:08:57Z pfdietz: Several implementations support PLNs:  SBCL, ECL, ABCL.   CCL needs to add them.  I don't know about the commercial lisps.
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2018-05-02T04:10:25Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: thanks for this info, i think it will help me for what i'm writing right now, my package names are loooooooong
2018-05-02T04:11:04Z pfdietz: I may have gotten the exact syntax in the defpackage there wrong; look at the sbcl manual.
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2018-05-02T04:18:30Z defunkydrummer: will do.
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2018-05-02T04:47:20Z ealfonso: PuercoPop btw, thanks, it worked. for some reason sudo make install didn't provide an executable in my PATH, so I had to manually link run-sbcl.sh I also used apt-get to install buildapp, it also pulled sbcl again, which I manually removed
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2018-05-02T04:48:41Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop went to sleep, it's 11:48pm in our country
2018-05-02T04:49:07Z defunkydrummer: glad to see you got it working
2018-05-02T04:49:38Z ealfonso: pfdietz thanks. I didn't remember I had asked about it. I will probably remember it once I run into a naming conflict.
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2018-05-02T04:53:16Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer (thanks)
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2018-05-02T05:39:16Z kqr: not sure if this is the right place to ask but I'll go: does anyone know to what extend CLX supports Xinput 2? specifically, I'm interested in the ability to grab keys on only a specific device
2018-05-02T05:39:23Z kqr: haven't seen this mentioned yet
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2018-05-02T05:40:48Z beach: kqr: You can ask in #clim.  jackdaniel is one of the CLX maintainers, and he hangs out there.
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2018-05-02T05:42:16Z kqr: beach, thanks, will do!
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2018-05-02T05:42:54Z beach: kqr: It might be a bit early for him though.
2018-05-02T05:43:18Z kqr: oh don't worry, it's a bit early for me too :)
2018-05-02T05:43:28Z beach: Heh.
2018-05-02T05:43:32Z kqr: by the way, what's the take on picolisp? I read about it last night and it seems a little like "the C of lisps" in that it is aimed at being simple to implement, reasonably high performance, and with virtually no safety checks
2018-05-02T05:43:58Z beach: Is picolisp an implementation of Common Lisp?
2018-05-02T05:44:04Z beach: As I recall, it is not.
2018-05-02T05:44:09Z beach: But my memory is not great.
2018-05-02T05:44:49Z kqr: picolisp is not an implementation of common lisp
2018-05-02T05:44:53Z kqr: it's quite different in many ways
2018-05-02T05:45:01Z beach: Then it's off topic.
2018-05-02T05:45:12Z kqr: oh sorry. didn't read the topic, only the channel name
2018-05-02T05:45:24Z kqr: well, I did read the topic at some point, but that was some time ago
2018-05-02T05:45:38Z beach: Yea, you are not the only one.  Don't worry about it.
2018-05-02T05:45:53Z beach: Just saying.
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2018-05-02T05:49:12Z White_Flame: kqr: ##lisp (as opposed to #lisp) is for the general Lisp family
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2018-05-02T05:49:34Z beach: Oh, right.  I forgot to mention that.
2018-05-02T05:49:43Z kqr: ah, that makes sense given how freenode namespaces things
2018-05-02T05:49:47Z kqr: which I always forget..
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2018-05-02T06:40:37Z knobo: machine-instance is not enough for me to make slime-create-filename-translator do what I want.
2018-05-02T06:40:47Z knobo: I'd like the full path too.
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2018-05-02T08:03:47Z xificurC: how can I match t in a typecase? The symbol t http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_t.htm specifies the supertype of every type
2018-05-02T08:04:34Z blep-on-external: the other case uses the symbol `otherwise`
2018-05-02T08:05:00Z phoe: xificurC: (member t)?
2018-05-02T08:05:30Z phoe: if you want a type that that is matched only by the symbol T then it should do
2018-05-02T08:05:58Z xificurC: phoe: yeah, closest I got is (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:09Z phoe: or rather (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:21Z phoe: yes, that's the proper one here since (member t) is equivalent to (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:33Z xificurC: ok, thanks
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2018-05-02T08:54:04Z dim: hi there!
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2018-05-02T08:55:10Z blep-on-external: hi
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2018-05-02T10:04:36Z Younder: I'd forgotten what a pin it is to move..
2018-05-02T10:04:40Z Younder: pain
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2018-05-02T11:00:06Z Xach: if you pin it, it does not move
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2018-05-02T12:40:43Z beach: In case someone is interested, I have improved the slides for my talk on choosing a programming language: http://metamodular.com/choosing-a-language.pdf  In particular, I now have several pairs of slides where the first one asks the audience for examples of languages and the second gives a list of examples.  If anyone has the time to verify that I am not making incorrect claims, I would appreciate it.
2018-05-02T12:41:42Z beach: It is a bit related to Common Lisp, because I try to inform the audience about some misconceptions with respect to dynamic languages in general and Common Lisp in particular.
2018-05-02T12:41:57Z beach: And, of course, I mention Common Lisp many times.
2018-05-02T12:42:33Z beach: In particular, I advise the use of a single dynamic language for an application, rather than the combination of a static language and a "scripting language".
2018-05-02T12:43:10Z beach: The talk will be given to a consulting company on May 15, so there is still time for more improvements.
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2018-05-02T12:52:23Z fe[nl]ix: beach: Forth is untyped as well, if you like
2018-05-02T12:52:33Z beach: Yes, good, thanks.
2018-05-02T12:52:39Z jmercouris: I have some critique, not related to the validity of the topic if you are interested
2018-05-02T12:52:46Z jmercouris: but rather than what makes a good presentation
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2018-05-02T12:53:31Z beach: Go ahead.
2018-05-02T12:53:39Z jmercouris: 1. Too much text on several slides
2018-05-02T12:53:46Z beach: Yeah, I know. :(
2018-05-02T12:54:02Z jmercouris: 2. Color scheme is terrible and distracting, simple black and white would be fine
2018-05-02T12:54:03Z beach: I'll try to fix it.
2018-05-02T12:54:10Z beach: OK.
2018-05-02T12:54:23Z jmercouris: 3. The speech overview is not adhered to within the slides
2018-05-02T12:54:41Z jmercouris: overview says that "Programming language characteristics" will be first
2018-05-02T12:54:48Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-05-02T12:54:52Z jmercouris: yet, the slide immediately thereafter is "How the choice is often made"
2018-05-02T12:55:15Z jmercouris: secondly, the audience has no reason to care about the topic
2018-05-02T12:55:26Z jmercouris: really, the first thing you should introduce to them is a reason why they should listen to you
2018-05-02T12:55:30Z jmercouris: what will you give them in this presentation
2018-05-02T12:55:45Z beach: All good points.  I'll try to fix as many as possible before the talk.
2018-05-02T12:55:47Z beach: Thanks.
2018-05-02T12:56:05Z jmercouris: maybe a better title might be "Choosing a better language for better results"
2018-05-02T12:56:08Z jmercouris: or something like that
2018-05-02T12:56:31Z jmercouris: and then you must make it extremely concrete and describe to them exactly *HOW* the choice in language will result in the purported benefits
2018-05-02T12:56:33Z beach: The title has been announced, so I don't think I'll change that for this particular event.
2018-05-02T12:56:49Z jmercouris: Well, you may still have a "Motivation" slide after the title slide with this information
2018-05-02T12:56:58Z jdz: beach: You don't mention JavaScript anywhere, but I think it is a good example for many categories (dynamic typing, automatic memory manager, has a standard (a few), very good runtimes from many vendors (Google, Apple, Mozilla)).
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2018-05-02T12:57:23Z beach: jdz: yes, good point.  Especially since it is so popular now.
2018-05-02T12:57:32Z jmercouris: I think there's a lot of good stuff in here
2018-05-02T12:57:32Z jdz: Exactly.
2018-05-02T12:57:44Z beach: I goto run, but I'll be back later, and I'll read the logs.
2018-05-02T12:57:49Z jmercouris: best of luck with the presentation :)
2018-05-02T12:57:51Z beach: Thanks again to everyone.
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2018-05-02T13:02:29Z shka: beach: why won't you add Atom/RSS feed to your webpage? :-(
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2018-05-02T13:05:42Z fe[nl]ix: beach: there's at least one static language where you can add type checks or asserts which will can be elided by the compiler, or end up being executed at runtime: Ada
2018-05-02T13:06:10Z fe[nl]ix: I suspect that other languages that have design-by-contract features behave the same, e.g. Eiffel
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2018-05-02T13:09:25Z Bike: is there any chance we can put a space in the topic between the log links? both clients i use don't treat the link correctly
2018-05-02T13:10:53Z dim: beach: you're not mentioning (void) and (void *) in C when assigning it to the different dimensions you're choosing (static, dynamic, strong/weak, etc) for the typing system, and I think it's quite an important notion that blurries everything there
2018-05-02T13:12:26Z dim: beach: more general comment about your presentation, your slides look like very good presenter notes, and require way too much thinking from the audience, I guess you're used to having the responsibity to make students/audience think by themselves rather than delivering an opinionated view of the world
2018-05-02T13:14:15Z fe[nl]ix: :D
2018-05-02T13:14:52Z phoe: beach: for slide 7, you could perhaps mention different implementations of the C standard library.
2018-05-02T13:14:59Z dim: beach: in my opinion each of your slide should have a single notion/concept written on it, big font, center (vertical&horizontal) of the screen, and your presentation is missing “recap” points with like a matrix or at least 2-column arrays to summarize your points
2018-05-02T13:16:42Z fe[nl]ix: slide 32: one problem is that the only CL that has a runtime with a modern GC is ABCL/JVM
2018-05-02T13:18:01Z dim: beach: a latex-beamer example that uses many tricks is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgconfs/tree/master/nordic_pgday_2018/normalization ; unfortunately it fails to follow my own piece of advice here :/
2018-05-02T13:18:17Z Xach: Hmm
2018-05-02T13:19:20Z Xach: Would you consider the result of (union '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) to be constant data on which SORT should not be called?
2018-05-02T13:19:51Z Xach: My perhaps unfounded expectation was that UNION would return a fresh list in that circumstance.
2018-05-02T13:20:03Z phoe: Xach: it does not say that it returns a fresh list.
2018-05-02T13:20:20Z Xach: Indeed it doesn't.
2018-05-02T13:20:40Z phoe: only NUNION kinda does, because it is destructive anyway.
2018-05-02T13:21:24Z Bike: union says the result could be eq to one of the arguments in the trivial case, so i guess constant folding isn't a completely absurd proposition
2018-05-02T13:21:42Z phoe: Xach: SBCL here, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/775#775
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2018-05-02T13:22:12Z phoe: so the result shares structure with the arguments
2018-05-02T13:22:32Z Bike: oh, like that. right.
2018-05-02T13:22:55Z Xach: phoe: i find that even more surprising
2018-05-02T13:23:00Z phoe: Xach: why?
2018-05-02T13:23:23Z Xach: I would not expect UNION to clobber the cdr chain of its arguments.
2018-05-02T13:23:33Z Xach: Oh, but it doesn't.
2018-05-02T13:23:41Z Bike: yeah it just throws the whole thing in.
2018-05-02T13:24:41Z phoe: copying the whole list doesn't make sense to me for an union operation, either
2018-05-02T13:25:36Z Xach: Ok, the fact that the tail could be a constant makes the behavior more intuitive to me.
2018-05-02T13:25:53Z phoe: Xach: either LIST-1 or LIST-2 may be constant
2018-05-02T13:26:02Z phoe: or both can be
2018-05-02T13:28:08Z Xach: phoe: it's the "tainting" of the result with respect to "don't modify it" that puzzled me, but I'm not puzzled any more.
2018-05-02T13:28:41Z phoe: Xach: thou hast now gained insight into the ways of the union
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2018-05-02T13:36:34Z Xach: My next thought was that having duplicate elements would make it modify the lists to remove duplicates, hence making a fresh tail. But: If either list-1 or list-2 has duplicate entries within it, the redundant entries might or might not appear in the result.
2018-05-02T13:36:48Z Xach: only duplicates across lists are considered
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2018-05-02T13:40:26Z Xach: I can feel myself inspired to create a LispTip!!
2018-05-02T13:41:13Z Xach: It feels justified in hindsight, but I really did not expect that you should not modify the results of UNION.
2018-05-02T13:42:05Z Xach: Maybe I made too many assumptions based on the presence of nunion.
2018-05-02T13:43:07Z phoe: Xach: you are always permitted to modify the result of NUNION
2018-05-02T13:43:29Z phoe: because either you gave non-constant arguments to NUNION and everything is correct or you are already in undefined behaviour so you can do anything anyway
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2018-05-02T13:44:13Z Xach: anything!
2018-05-02T13:45:02Z phoe: Xach: anything, yes!
2018-05-02T13:46:45Z Xach goes mad with possibility
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2018-05-02T14:50:52Z Xof: you go mad over nunion and not over our awesome finite state machine method combination?
2018-05-02T14:51:51Z addsub: https://github.com/google/netstack
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2018-05-02T14:52:02Z addsub: is there such stack in lisp?
2018-05-02T14:53:18Z shka: addsub: i don't know any
2018-05-02T14:53:34Z shka: also, not sure how usefull it would be
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2018-05-02T14:54:51Z addsub: how so?
2018-05-02T14:55:46Z shka: just have problem figuring out what can i use it for that usocket won't cut
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2018-05-02T14:56:13Z jdz: There's also this one: https://github.com/secdev/scapy.
2018-05-02T14:56:38Z Xach: addsub: there's slitch, but it is a little old now
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2018-05-02T14:56:46Z Xach: it is ipv4 for cmucl, i think.
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2018-05-02T14:59:45Z jdz: shka: usocket allows one to send packets, but these libraries are for use with raw sockets, and for composing the contents under user control.
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2018-05-02T15:00:30Z Xach: the author of slitch has done a few more things with networking since then
2018-05-02T15:00:37Z jdz: shka: one use case is to generate semi-random-valid packets and test network devices.
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2018-05-02T15:09:50Z shka: well, ok you can construct PACKET OF DOOM
2018-05-02T15:10:32Z shka: that is legitimate reason to use such stack, i must admit
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2018-05-02T15:20:42Z beach: shka: I am not adding Atom/RSS because I don't know how to, and I don't know what it is useful for.
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2018-05-02T15:22:17Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-02T15:22:19Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Thanks for the Ada suggestion.
2018-05-02T15:22:26Z beach: Hello DemolitionMan.
2018-05-02T15:22:31Z shka: beach: Atom or RSS is basicly automatic notification stream for web
2018-05-02T15:22:46Z beach: shka: Thanks.
2018-05-02T15:22:52Z DemolitionMan: is there any cl-prometheus user? I need to understand how to render sensors data with timestamp
2018-05-02T15:23:07Z shka: so user can subscribe and they can be notified when there is new post on blog or some sort of update
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2018-05-02T15:23:44Z beach: dim: void and void* are good suggestions.  Thanks.  I'll try to work them in.
2018-05-02T15:23:54Z shka: majority of web frameworks have some sort of support for that, but you webpage seems to static and hand written html
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2018-05-02T15:24:39Z beach: shka: Web stuff is one area I have not had the patience to dig into.
2018-05-02T15:25:40Z shka: well, that's ok
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2018-05-02T15:27:28Z beach: dim: I think part of why I was welcomed back is that I make them think.  They especially told me last time that they were surprised (in a positive way) that I was not trying to sell them a particular tool or technique.
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2018-05-02T15:29:20Z shka: heh, guy on stackoverflow suggest generating webpage out of RSS stream instead of other way around
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2018-05-02T15:29:44Z shka: this is actually kinda neat idea
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2018-05-02T15:30:23Z phoe: shka: you just reinvented the RSS reader
2018-05-02T15:30:23Z beach: phoe: Why is the C library a good example?
2018-05-02T15:31:01Z shka: phoe: well, people expect to see webpage
2018-05-02T15:31:03Z phoe: beach: I thought that the functions exported by the standard C library are standardized, but each C standard library implements it in its own way.
2018-05-02T15:31:19Z phoe: So there's the difference between the standard and the implementation.
2018-05-02T15:31:45Z shka: hm
2018-05-02T15:31:47Z phoe: Same goes for the compiler; the C that is the source code is standardized, but each C compiler implements turning that source code into machine formats differently.
2018-05-02T15:32:39Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Yes, that is definitely a problem.  But since I am not mentioning Common Lisp explicitly, I don't think it is a problem.
2018-05-02T15:32:54Z beach: This crowd is very likely programming in C# or Java.  Perhaps some in C++.
2018-05-02T15:33:48Z phoe: beach: this is also why I thought that using C compiler/stdlib as an example would be a good idea.
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2018-05-02T15:34:28Z shka: well, C++ or C at least have portable standard
2018-05-02T15:34:43Z shka: some parts are implementation dependent, true
2018-05-02T15:35:06Z shka: but I still prefer this over something like python
2018-05-02T15:35:07Z beach: dim: Thanks for the Beamer example.  I don't think I have time to study it in depth right now.
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2018-05-02T15:35:39Z beach: phoe: Yes, sure.  I can mention those examples.
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2018-05-02T15:37:59Z phoe: beach: good! I'm glad I can help.
2018-05-02T15:38:45Z shka: it is funny how easy is to shoot yourself with C and C++
2018-05-02T15:39:13Z shka: messing memory alignment is one example of that
2018-05-02T15:39:18Z phoe: shka: C++ gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. The mixed metaphor is important.
2018-05-02T15:39:29Z phoe goes to #lispcafe then
2018-05-02T15:39:31Z beach: shka: Funny for you perhaps.  Very sad for someone like me, partly responsible for trying to make the software industry more productive by teaching better ways to do it.
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2018-05-02T15:40:28Z jackdaniel: well, it's not that Lisp doesn't give you enough rope to hang yourself
2018-05-02T15:40:29Z shka: reality is funny ;-)
2018-05-02T15:40:54Z shka likes rope
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2018-05-02T15:42:40Z phoe: (let (x) (loop (setf x (cons x x)))) is a pretty fun way to be stupid
2018-05-02T15:44:45Z beach: phoe: Why are you looking for ways to be stupid?
2018-05-02T15:45:03Z orestarod: that's actually an expression of intelligence
2018-05-02T15:45:20Z orestarod: actively using your intellect to find funny ways to be stupid
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2018-05-02T15:46:22Z beach: I should have known that this point would be debatable.
2018-05-02T15:46:31Z beach: Everything in #lisp seems to be.
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2018-05-02T15:58:36Z phoe: beach: the discussion suddenly took a turn towards shooting oneself in the foot. I decided to contribute.
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2018-05-02T16:56:14Z p_l: Sometimes I feel like the humourous anecdotes and aphorisms stick better in minds of new programmers than all the "dull" ones
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2018-05-02T16:56:40Z p_l: but then you have "GOTO Considered Harmful"
2018-05-02T16:56:42Z ioa: hi
2018-05-02T16:56:49Z p_l: ioa: hi
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2018-05-02T19:27:09Z rme: phoe: The badge you made me at the ELS makes a good Twitter/GitHub profile picture.  Thank you.
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2018-05-02T19:31:17Z puchacz: hi, is there a library that would allow lisp-to-lisp interactive communication?
2018-05-02T19:31:46Z puchacz: e.g. in my "local" lisp I would write in repl: (with-remote-lisp (*server1*) (compute-something))
2018-05-02T19:31:54Z puchacz: and it would compute it on remote lisp
2018-05-02T19:32:11Z puchacz: the reason I want it is to aggregate data from many lisp images
2018-05-02T19:32:25Z puchacz: so I would for example (reduce #'append ..... ) incoming lists
2018-05-02T19:32:41Z puchacz: it does not have to be fast or optimizing or anything like this
2018-05-02T19:32:56Z puchacz: it is for interactive investigations
2018-05-02T19:33:21Z phoe: rme: <3
2018-05-02T19:33:47Z phoe: puchacz: yes
2018-05-02T19:33:57Z phoe: one sec
2018-05-02T19:34:11Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/lfarm
2018-05-02T19:34:15Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/swank-crew
2018-05-02T19:34:37Z puchacz: phoe: isn't lfarm tied to lparallel?
2018-05-02T19:34:44Z phoe: the former uses lparallel interface, the latter does not
2018-05-02T19:34:45Z Younder: Quants waging Haskell. What is the world coming to.
2018-05-02T19:34:45Z puchacz: I know the name, but I haven't used it
2018-05-02T19:34:47Z phoe: puchacz: correct
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2018-05-02T19:35:11Z puchacz: phoe: okay, thanks. swank-crew then for me
2018-05-02T19:35:35Z Younder: crank-screw it is
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2018-05-02T19:36:12Z puchacz: also, somebody here (maybe Xach?) mentioned that I can have local copy of the whole quicklisp
2018-05-02T19:36:22Z Xach: it is not too tricky
2018-05-02T19:36:22Z puchacz: so I can avoid corporate authenticating proxy problem
2018-05-02T19:36:46Z Xach: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems (dist "quicklisp")))))))
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2018-05-02T19:37:28Z puchacz: Xach: right, thanks :-)
2018-05-02T19:37:30Z phoe: Xach: 'ql:ensure-installed?
2018-05-02T19:37:33Z phoe: or any symbol will do?
2018-05-02T19:37:37Z phoe: oh wait
2018-05-02T19:37:38Z phoe: I see
2018-05-02T19:37:45Z phoe: you're using this fancy syntax
2018-05-02T19:39:09Z Xach: so fancy
2018-05-02T19:39:50Z Younder: lets PRETTY-PRINT it
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2018-05-02T19:44:28Z cgay: Lisp has no syntax. I heard it on the internet.
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2018-05-02T19:45:07Z phoe: cgay: then you heard wrong
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2018-05-02T19:46:34Z cgay: That was kinda the implication.
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2018-05-02T19:46:54Z fe[nl]ix: fake news !
2018-05-02T19:46:59Z phoe: cgay: the Internet has a lot of ideas about Lisp, a lot of which are plain bull dung.
2018-05-02T19:46:59Z Younder: Yeah JSON is a wierd Lisp dialect
2018-05-02T19:47:00Z iqubic: the main building block of lisp is the paren
2018-05-02T19:47:08Z phoe: Younder: oh the burn
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2018-05-02T19:49:42Z jmercouris: iqubic: is that so? or is it the atom?
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2018-05-02T19:52:43Z phoe: jmercouris: no, you can express *all* of lisp using only The Holy Paren
2018-05-02T19:52:46Z phoe: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
2018-05-02T19:53:57Z jmercouris: lol
2018-05-02T19:53:58Z jmercouris: well
2018-05-02T19:54:26Z jmercouris: the quine is very interesting
2018-05-02T19:54:33Z jmercouris: I think that's the most succinct looking version I've ever seen
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2018-05-02T19:56:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe: make it stop
2018-05-02T19:58:59Z warweasle: Reminds me of the Lambda Calculus.
2018-05-02T19:59:25Z warweasle: By concating functions you can make numbers! And go blind if you actually try and use that.
2018-05-02T20:00:14Z warweasle: It's clever. But I have to imagine someone went to the loony bin after thinking that one up.
2018-05-02T20:00:42Z Petit_Dejeuner has been playing around with a hardware design optimized for church numerals.
2018-05-02T20:01:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Just think, instead of having a seperate ALU, you could just do everything through ()()())))((()()()
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2018-05-02T20:01:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Every numeric transformation you optimized would also optimize every similar expression.
2018-05-02T20:02:28Z warweasle: My brain can't even comprehend what you are saying.
2018-05-02T20:02:47Z Younder: You would LOVE brainfuck
2018-05-02T20:02:55Z warweasle: It has something to do with computers, right?
2018-05-02T20:02:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes.
2018-05-02T20:03:30Z warweasle: Younder: I prefer Whitespace. But it's easiest just to put BF and WS in the same file and compile it twice.
2018-05-02T20:03:50Z Younder: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
2018-05-02T20:04:18Z warweasle: Really the best way to program BF is to use lisp to compile to it.
2018-05-02T20:04:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Create a lambda calc machine and optimize some of the evaluations with hardware lookup tables (arrays of multiplexers). The hard part is coming up with a way to represent values and to chunk them in case a single evaluation isn't possible with one lookup.
2018-05-02T20:04:57Z random-nick: we all know that malbolge is superior to bf
2018-05-02T20:05:10Z warweasle: The bad guy from Spawn?
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2018-05-02T20:06:17Z Younder: brainfuck is a joke from some guy's from MIT who wrote the 'anti' perfect programming language
2018-05-02T20:06:21Z random-nick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
2018-05-02T20:07:13Z Younder: Take everything you ever learned and then break every rule.
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2018-05-02T20:10:29Z Younder: random-nick, thx, I believe you have it beat
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2018-05-02T20:11:19Z Younder: random-nick, I love the bit about a search algorithm to find a legal program
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2018-05-02T20:15:29Z jmercouris: this is the kind of stuff _death would enjoy
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2018-05-02T21:16:16Z TMA: hunchentoot keeps idle looping consuming one full core of CPU time after the first request. The I am not aware of anything special I have done to make it so. Even a request for static content is enough to triger this behavior.
2018-05-02T21:16:46Z TMA: I have no idea, what might cause that. Have you encountered something similar?
2018-05-02T21:16:54Z phoe:  TMA: which hunchentoot version? are you able to interrupt that thread and force it to print a stacktrace?
2018-05-02T21:17:22Z TMA: phoe: I am able to suspend the thread from the outside
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2018-05-02T21:18:09Z phoe: TMA: no need to suspend that particular thread; find it within your Lisp image and try (interrupt-thread thread #'break)
2018-05-02T21:18:29Z phoe: that'll hopefully force it to enter the debugger and print its stack inside it.
2018-05-02T21:18:29Z TMA: 1.2.38
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2018-05-02T21:28:02Z TMA: http://lpaste.net/8619932988647407616 I do not see anything peculiar there
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2018-05-02T21:34:04Z TMA: http://lpaste.net/3814866385545199616 it is different at different times
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2018-05-02T21:47:28Z phoe: well, shit
2018-05-02T21:47:55Z phoe: TMA: try recompiling hunchentoot with (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3) and see if the problem persists
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2018-05-02T21:56:41Z TMA: phoe: I suspect #+(and win32 sbcl x86-64) just uses busy loop wait for some reasons
2018-05-02T21:57:10Z phoe: TMA: does the worker respond normally to requests, or are other workers spun up?
2018-05-02T21:59:17Z TMA: phoe: it is functionally OK, this is the hunchentoot-listener-*:8443 thread that spins up the workers. it is just annoying that the CPU gets hot and the fan speeds up and makes noise, which distract me
2018-05-02T21:59:40Z phoe: TMA: I see. Weird.
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2018-05-03T01:40:22Z White_Flame: FBOUNDP Pronunciation:  [,ef'bandpee] .  Who pronounces "bound" as "band"?
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2018-05-03T01:58:57Z Xach: bahhhnd
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2018-05-03T02:29:47Z pfdietz: flet is pronounced "flay", right?
2018-05-03T02:31:09Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-03T02:31:42Z PuercoPop: I pronounce it f-let
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2018-05-03T02:33:27Z PuercoPop: Then again I was surprised when I learned some lispers pronounce CLOS as 'see-los' instead of 'klos' (same as clause)
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2018-05-03T02:37:35Z rme: The joke is that you pronounce "flet" in order to rhyme with "macrolet", which itself is pronounced to rhyme with "Chevrolet".
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2018-05-03T02:40:07Z rme: Most people I talk to say "see-loss", but I also hear "kloss".
2018-05-03T02:40:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: I say kloss
2018-05-03T02:41:56Z mfiano: kloss for me
2018-05-03T02:42:46Z mfiano: and f-let, macro-let, and i also use mvlet from serapeum for nested multiple value binding
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2018-05-03T02:54:42Z Josh_2: kloss
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2018-05-03T03:20:49Z iqubic: I say kloss.
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2018-05-03T03:22:30Z rme: barbarians :-)
2018-05-03T03:25:05Z mfiano: Anyone with access to CCL, does static-vectors of the latest QL dist quickload for you?
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2018-05-03T03:27:17Z rme: it loaded for me on darwin/x8664
2018-05-03T03:27:44Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/1a558fe12177299f3ba4fd7efdfcadeb
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2018-05-03T03:28:23Z mfiano: Works just fine on SBCL. Went to test my project on CCL and nope :/
2018-05-03T03:29:03Z defunkydrummer: buon giorno amici
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2018-05-03T03:29:43Z cgay: haha, now I will always say "macrolay" and "flay". There's just no going back.
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2018-05-03T03:30:42Z rme: how did you install ccl? it looks like it can't find the interface db (used by the #_ reader macro).
2018-05-03T03:31:40Z mfiano: I compiled it from the svn repo
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2018-05-03T03:32:01Z defunkydrummer: cgay: macrolay, flay, flay-star, and also frito-lay
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2018-05-03T03:33:44Z rme: mfiano: "offical" ccl has been on github for a while now (https://github.com/Clozure/ccl). If you start your ccl and evaluate (#_getpid) does it work?
2018-05-03T03:34:10Z mfiano: no
2018-05-03T03:34:41Z rme: I suggest that you grab a release from https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/tag/v1.11.5
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2018-05-03T03:35:52Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: static-vectors quickloads fine for me, i'm on SBCL 1.3.10 on windows 64bit
2018-05-03T03:36:00Z mfiano: I took the lazy way and just installed ccl-git from the Arch AUR. I also think I should reboot this machine...it might have had a few linux kernel installs that diverge from the booted one :)
2018-05-03T03:36:12Z mfiano: I'll check on all that
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2018-05-03T03:36:20Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: i'm really pending to try CCL since long ago, i'll see if there is a binary for lazy-ass guys like me
2018-05-03T03:36:24Z mfiano: defunkydrummer: Yeah it has always worked on SBCL for me
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2018-05-03T03:37:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-03T03:37:35Z cgay: I think even back in the 80s there were both the c-loss and kloss pronunciations. I distinctly remember switching from the former to the latter because it seemed more dominant.
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2018-05-03T03:37:48Z defunkydrummer: oh yeah, CCL has a binary for lazy flakes like me... Downnnloaaadinggggggg my entry to the fantastic world of CCL
2018-05-03T03:37:51Z rme: defunkydrummer: Please see above release link. Download and unpack one file, and you'll have a running ccl (binaries and sources).
2018-05-03T03:38:06Z defunkydrummer: CloZure, which sounds so mmmuch better than Clojure !!
2018-05-03T03:38:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any way to close sockets in sbcl that you've accidentally leaked?
2018-05-03T03:38:35Z defunkydrummer: Clo-zu-re! yay! flay! macrolay!
2018-05-03T03:38:57Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: (sb-ext:quit)
2018-05-03T03:39:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: :(
2018-05-03T03:39:16Z cgay: Who have you leaked sbcl to?
2018-05-03T03:39:18Z defunkydrummer: bonjour Beach
2018-05-03T03:39:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was running drakma:http-request in a loop with want-stream t, and I didn't think about how leaving the stream open means leaking sockets
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2018-05-03T03:40:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I'd rather not lose my repl state
2018-05-03T03:40:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it's just exiting
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2018-05-03T03:51:22Z PuercoPop: TIL that I've been pronouncing Chevrolet wrong all my life!
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2018-05-03T03:53:52Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop: CHE-BRO-LET : che (argentinian for "bro"), bro (american for "che"), let (binding operator)
2018-05-03T03:54:11Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop also there's chevrolet* and fchevrolet
2018-05-03T03:54:37Z defunkydrummer: rme: i just got the CCL REPL running. Thanks !
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2018-05-03T03:56:01Z cgay: no chevrolabels?
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2018-05-03T03:57:48Z defunkydrummer: yes, like a chevrolet but with a large scope. The scope allows you to see further into the road, particularly at night, and more particularly when you have (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3)))
2018-05-03T03:58:05Z defunkydrummer: sorry for so much nonsense
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2018-05-03T04:12:54Z ukari: how to define a anonymous macro
2018-05-03T04:13:35Z PuercoPop: ukari: macrolet to a gensym?
2018-05-03T04:14:37Z PuercoPop: What  do you want to accomplish?
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2018-05-03T04:17:23Z ukari: i want to make a yield generator, if keyword yield (a macro) could be local scope it should be better
2018-05-03T04:20:30Z PuercoPop: Then yeah, macrolet sounds what you are lookingfor
2018-05-03T04:22:29Z ukari: thanks you,  PuercoPop
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2018-05-03T04:36:02Z defunkydrummer: oh, i've installed CCL for the first time and already installed swank... so excited, because SBCL is so mainstream for a hipster.
2018-05-03T04:36:34Z defunkydrummer: does anybody know if CCL will someday support package local nicknames? is CCL actively mantained ?
2018-05-03T04:37:55Z rme: maybe.  yes.
2018-05-03T04:39:09Z rme: I talked to Xach a little bit at the ELS about the package local nickname issue.  I'm willing to consider adding it to CCL.
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2018-05-03T04:40:23Z defunkydrummer: rme: you are the maintainer? i'm not worthy! PS: You gained (1+ ) user today. Can't wait to load now my project under CCL
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2018-05-03T04:40:45Z rme: well, you might hate it, so don't thank me yet.
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2018-05-03T04:41:08Z rme: But I like it.
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2018-05-03T04:54:03Z defunkydrummer: rme: so far everything is loading fine and fast :)
2018-05-03T04:55:01Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: now loading static-vectors on CCL...
2018-05-03T04:55:18Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: "Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5  (WindowsX8664)"
2018-05-03T04:56:09Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: loaded fine. On windows in this case.
2018-05-03T04:56:57Z rme: Note that there is an odd bug where, on Windows, sometimes (ccl:quit) will hang instead of existing the lisp.  I don't know why.
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2018-05-03T04:59:45Z defunkydrummer: rme: why would I want to quit the REPL? the repl is the only true home
2018-05-03T04:59:54Z defunkydrummer: it would be suicide.
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2018-05-03T05:09:02Z flip214: rme: other threads still running, or even locked in a syscall?
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2018-05-03T05:22:38Z rme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/24 is all I know
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2018-05-03T07:18:31Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: when that happened to me and all descriptors were taken I just did (sb-posix:close 1234)
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2018-05-03T09:37:23Z Xof: in (let ((z 'bar)) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination bar z))), what do you expect the method combination to receive as an argument?
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2018-05-03T09:40:31Z beach: I take it it is unspecified whether the argument is evaluated?
2018-05-03T09:43:16Z Xof: I can't see it specified
2018-05-03T09:43:22Z Xof: I might have missed something.  (I hope I have)
2018-05-03T09:46:50Z beach: Don't count on it.
2018-05-03T09:47:18Z beach: I would help you, but my computer has some hardware problem I think, and it keeps crashing if I do too many things.
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2018-05-03T09:50:49Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/the-defgeneric-macro.html
2018-05-03T09:51:06Z beach: "The handling of the :method-combination option is not specified."
2018-05-03T09:53:01Z beach: Note to self: In WSCL, specify how the :METHOD-COMBINATION option of DEFGENERIC is handled, in particular, whether the method-combination-arguments are evaluated.
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2018-05-03T09:58:58Z meh: beach: From your slides, what does "obtaining a pointer outside of an array" mean?
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2018-05-03T10:29:24Z akr: hello, anyone knowledgeable about postmodern? I'm trying to put together a simple query: http://lpaste.net/3943544928583286784
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2018-05-03T10:30:07Z akr: when track is nil, the query should require that track is nil, otherwise it should require that it is equal to the id
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2018-05-03T10:30:19Z akr: not sure how to write this, though
2018-05-03T10:31:29Z akr: I guess that the whole (:select …) form is quoted by pomo:query, but I can't use backtick inside it on my own
2018-05-03T10:31:37Z shka: akr: this maps directly into sql semantics
2018-05-03T10:32:15Z shka: you can simply construct list on your own though, compile it and then query it
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2018-05-03T10:35:17Z akr: how do I compile it?
2018-05-03T10:35:35Z akr: oh, pomo:sql-compile?
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2018-05-03T10:38:19Z akr: yeah ok looks like that's it
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2018-05-03T10:44:00Z akr: thanks, looks like it works
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2018-05-03T11:29:52Z meh: Is there a word that refers to the property of a system and processes on that system such that any effect on the system can be undone?
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2018-05-03T11:47:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: Non-destructive?*
2018-05-03T11:48:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: *however this is like saying pure (in FP) I suppose
2018-05-03T11:48:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: Reversible works better.
2018-05-03T11:49:30Z ukari: i found that it seems common to add (in-package :cl-user), is thete any benefit to it?
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2018-05-03T11:51:10Z ukari: or just for ensure move into cl-user?
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2018-05-03T11:53:59Z Xach: it can be nice to know where you are
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2018-05-03T11:54:47Z shka: better safe then sorry!
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2018-05-03T11:56:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: meh: if I were selling a product I'd say non-destructive. Users don't really mind how you allocate data in their software. If I were describing processes in Lisp, reversible hopefully will confuse people less.
2018-05-03T11:56:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: nconc is destructive, append is not destructive. Neither is very reversible.
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2018-05-03T12:04:38Z dim: meh: transactional, I guess, see also ROLLBACK
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2018-05-03T12:11:48Z jdz: There's whole branch of since about "reversible computing", so I'd bet it has quite a specific meaning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
2018-05-03T12:12:07Z jdz: s/since/science
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2018-05-03T12:16:18Z meh: Noted, thanks for the suggestions.
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2018-05-03T13:13:23Z pfdietz: "Persistent"?
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2018-05-03T16:18:57Z capitaomorte: what's the easiest way to pairwise-merge two lists of the same size?
2018-05-03T16:20:00Z capitaomorte: i can think of loop, but isn't there something more concise?
2018-05-03T16:20:00Z Bike: so (1 2 3) and (4 5 6) become ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)), or what?
2018-05-03T16:20:09Z capitaomorte: Bike: yes
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2018-05-03T16:20:16Z Bike: (mapcar #'list list1 list2)
2018-05-03T16:20:38Z capitaomorte: right :-) only problem is elisp doesn't have multiarg mapcar
2018-05-03T16:20:47Z capitaomorte: and this is an elisp problem (forgot to mention thath)
2018-05-03T16:20:54Z capitaomorte: it does have map, tho
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2018-05-03T16:21:24Z Bike: you're in the wrong channel then, i believe there is #emacs
2018-05-03T16:21:28Z beach: capitaomorte: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-05-03T16:21:47Z capitaomorte: beach: I know, but it's not that different
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2018-05-03T16:21:53Z cgay: oh oh
2018-05-03T16:22:06Z beach: capitaomorte: It is though.  Emacs Lisp does not have multiarg mapcar, apparently.
2018-05-03T16:22:07Z sjl: I mean, it's different in exactly this particular case you care about
2018-05-03T16:22:11Z capitaomorte: would it help if i restate my question to require MAP?
2018-05-03T16:22:34Z shka: (map 'list #'list list1 list2)
2018-05-03T16:22:35Z sjl: no, because MAP also takes multiple sequences
2018-05-03T16:22:42Z shka: ;-)
2018-05-03T16:22:52Z Xach: PAIRLIS is almost it!
2018-05-03T16:22:54Z Bike: i don't know how emacs map works
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2018-05-03T16:23:10Z capitaomorte: shka: thanks!
2018-05-03T16:23:30Z capitaomorte: everyone else: sorry to offend the channel's rules
2018-05-03T16:23:39Z Xach: (pairlis list1 (mapcar 'list list2))
2018-05-03T16:23:51Z _death: elisp's map can take multiple sequences
2018-05-03T16:23:52Z sjl: I always forget about pairlis
2018-05-03T16:24:05Z cgay: I personally usually find LOOP more readable.
2018-05-03T16:24:18Z cgay prepares for battle
2018-05-03T16:24:21Z Bike: it's not a matter of offense, it's just that we can't offer as good help as the emacs people
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2018-05-03T16:24:36Z sjl: Ah, though PAIRLIS can return the results in either forward or reverse order
2018-05-03T16:24:43Z shka: more emacs people
2018-05-03T16:24:47Z Xach: I never forget Pairlis's epigrams regarding lisp
2018-05-03T16:25:13Z rme: haha
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2018-05-03T16:25:53Z _death: he was a famous Lispair
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2018-05-03T16:26:48Z capitaomorte: Bike: just thought it would be a fun question
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2018-05-03T16:27:12Z capitaomorte: I don't hang out in #emacs much, neither here for that matter
2018-05-03T16:27:37Z capitaomorte: well thanks, and bye
2018-05-03T16:27:37Z Younder: I started out with learning elisp, as I am sure many others did
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2018-05-03T16:28:27Z Younder: 1994 or something like that
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2018-05-03T16:32:41Z cgay: Funny that this timeline of Lisps is on the Lisp Machine Lisp page, not something more general... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_Machine_Lisp  I started with Zetalisp.
2018-05-03T16:33:51Z cgay: oh, I see, it's included in many of the lisp pages.
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2018-05-03T17:06:37Z ukari: is it possible to pull a macrolet variable to outside? sth like this, (funcall (lambda () (macrolet ((fn (&body body) `(lambda () ,@body))) fn)))
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2018-05-03T17:07:22Z Bike: macrolet defines a macro. there is no variable to begin with.
2018-05-03T17:07:34Z Bike: so i don't know what you're trying to do here.
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2018-05-03T17:08:09Z ukari: i want to get macro 'fn' out as an anonymous macro
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2018-05-03T17:08:20Z phoe: ukari: you can't really do that.
2018-05-03T17:08:39Z Bike: what is the point of an anonymous macro?
2018-05-03T17:09:08Z ukari: something anonymous like lambda
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2018-05-03T17:09:36Z phoe: in the base case, you can define an anonymous function that accepts two arguments, WHOLE and ENV, and funcall this on your forms, then eval that code.
2018-05-03T17:09:38Z Bike: that doesn't answer my question. you can use an anonymous function. you can funcall or apply it. an anonymous macro does not have a similar use.
2018-05-03T17:09:41Z phoe: but that's a very workaround.
2018-05-03T17:10:12Z ukari: (macro lambda-list &body)
2018-05-03T17:10:28Z Bike: But what would it be good for. What are you doing with it.
2018-05-03T17:10:45Z ukari: a function would eval arguements but macro not
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2018-05-03T17:11:13Z Bike: Eval arguments when? how are you using this? What is example code? You can use an anonymous function like (funcall (lambda (x) x) 4) => 4.
2018-05-03T17:11:18Z Bike: what are you doing with an anonymous macro?
2018-05-03T17:12:04Z ukari: Bike, i dont know, i thought an anonymous macro might be exist
2018-05-03T17:12:24Z Bike: it doesn't.
2018-05-03T17:12:33Z Bike: here's the trick: macros are gone once the compiler is finished.
2018-05-03T17:12:46Z Bike: macrolets disappear after compile time. they don't leave behind macros as values or anything.
2018-05-03T17:13:00Z Bike: so passing macros around as values is a difficult proposition.
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2018-05-03T17:15:12Z ukari: i get it
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2018-05-03T17:39:20Z flip214: the even bigger problem is that the compiler will already have computed all the _inputs_ as _values_, so splicing a macro in and expecting the source forms to be available is even harder.
2018-05-03T17:39:36Z drastik: .ud powry
2018-05-03T17:39:42Z drastik: wrong channel
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2018-05-03T18:32:22Z foojin: What is the purpose of lambda as a symbol? I know that lambda as a macro inserts a (function ...) around an inner lambda, but is the inner one a mere symbol that doesn't "do" anything unless handed to "function"?
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2018-05-03T18:35:32Z jackdaniel: symbol lambda denotes a lambda expression
2018-05-03T18:35:41Z jackdaniel: and lambda expression may be used when normally you'd use a function name
2018-05-03T18:35:53Z jackdaniel: so it is a literate function structure
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2018-05-03T18:37:47Z edgar-rft: foojin: how can om
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2018-05-03T18:38:32Z edgar-rft: foojin: how can one write a LAMBDA macro without LAMBDA being a symbol?
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2018-05-03T18:39:33Z cgay: foojin, you seem to have some specific code in mind. Paste it somewhere so we can see?
2018-05-03T18:39:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: edgar-rft: Maybe flet and return a function in the body?
2018-05-03T18:40:36Z MichaelRaskin: edgar-rft: I think they mean that CLHS has «Symbol LAMBDA» separately from «Macro LAMBDA»
2018-05-03T18:40:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess it wouldn't work for ((lambda (a b c) (list a b c)) 1 2 3) code though
2018-05-03T18:40:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: need that #'funcall
2018-05-03T18:41:22Z foojin: cgay: Actually I don't. I just want to understand if there's something like "function" which handles 'lambda in a special way.
2018-05-03T18:41:55Z MichaelRaskin: I think that moth LAMBDA and SETF are just for FUNCTION
2018-05-03T18:42:01Z MichaelRaskin: (as symbols)
2018-05-03T18:42:23Z foojin: That is, is 'LAMBDA something more that just a syntax convention for invoking FUNCTION?
2018-05-03T18:42:33Z MichaelRaskin: Well, SETF can be also used in a DEFUN
2018-05-03T18:42:54Z Bike: (function (lambda ...)) means a function, yes. That's what the "Symbol LAMBDA" entry in the CLHS is about.
2018-05-03T18:43:39Z phoe: foojin: there's no function that handles "symbol LAMBDA" differently. It's the evaluator that handles it differently.
2018-05-03T18:43:53Z phoe: The CAR of each function call may be either a symbol that names a function, or a LAMBDA form.
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2018-05-03T18:44:16Z phoe: If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like (foo ...) then it calls the function FOO.
2018-05-03T18:44:23Z Bike: yeah, it's treated specially in lambda forms,and (function ...) does as well.
2018-05-03T18:44:34Z phoe: If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like ((lambda (...) ...) ...) then it calls the anonymous function denoted by the lambda form.
2018-05-03T18:44:36Z Bike: that's what the "symbol LAMBDA" entry is about.
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2018-05-03T18:45:33Z foojin: phoe: But isn't it expanded to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) in that case too?
2018-05-03T18:45:49Z Bike: no.
2018-05-03T18:45:57Z Bike: it is a special case of the evaluator, not a macroexpansion.
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2018-05-03T18:46:23Z Bike: the CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally. That's why it can only be a symbol or a lambda expression.
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2018-05-03T18:47:28Z foojin: Bike: So when it sees a form like this, it skips expansion for the (LAMBDA ...) and handles it directly?
2018-05-03T18:47:53Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-03T18:48:16Z Bike: Do you understand that, say, ((foo bar) baz) is not a valid lisp form?
2018-05-03T18:48:23Z Bike: The CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally.
2018-05-03T18:49:22Z foojin: Yes, but I thougnt that it doesn't inhibit macro expansion.
2018-05-03T18:50:06Z cgay: foojin, there are no macros involved here.
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2018-05-03T18:52:18Z phoe: foojin: that is not a macro
2018-05-03T18:52:24Z Bike: why would it do macroexpansion?
2018-05-03T18:52:41Z Bike: (<symbol> ...) is valid. ((lambda ...) ...) is valid. everything else is invalid, so there's no need to macroexpand the car
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2018-05-03T18:54:15Z foojin: I see. So, except for that and lambda-as-a-macro case, LAMBDA doesn't have any other special meaning, right?
2018-05-03T18:54:22Z phoe: correct
2018-05-03T18:55:15Z phoe: it has two special uses: as a standard macro, and as a symbol naming an anonymous function in forms that are evaluated
2018-05-03T18:55:22Z phoe: other than that, it's just a symbol
2018-05-03T18:55:50Z Bike: and in FUNCTION.
2018-05-03T18:56:03Z phoe: oh right, this as well - sorry, I keep on forgetting about this
2018-05-03T18:57:12Z foojin: That's been bugging me for a while, and now I finally get it. Thanks a lot.
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2018-05-03T18:59:07Z edgar-rft: Is LAMBDA allowed to be used a s a variable name?
2018-05-03T18:59:18Z Bike: sure.
2018-05-03T18:59:23Z phoe: edgar-rft: (let ((lambda 42)) (+ lambda 100))
2018-05-03T19:00:10Z phoe: edgar-rft: all symbols can be used as variable names, except 1) constants cannot be shadowed, 2) things get weird with symbols naming special variables and symbol macros
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2018-05-03T19:00:33Z edgar-rft: okay, but (defvar lambda ...) gives here: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated
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2018-05-03T19:01:08Z phoe: edgar-rft: ha, you can't do that.
2018-05-03T19:01:14Z phoe: it only applies to local variables.
2018-05-03T19:01:32Z phoe: globally proclaiming any symbol from the COMMON-LISP package special is undefined.
2018-05-03T19:01:48Z p_l: but you can use LAMBDA in different symbol, of course
2018-05-03T19:01:56Z phoe: edgar-rft:
2018-05-03T19:01:58Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2018-05-03T19:01:58Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2018-05-03T19:02:29Z edgar-rft: phoe: thanks for CLHS link!
2018-05-03T19:02:47Z phoe: gosh, these chapter names are really weird sometimes
2018-05-03T19:02:53Z phoe: "Some Exceptions to Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs"
2018-05-03T19:03:02Z phoe: I mean, it makes sense
2018-05-03T19:03:06Z phoe: but is kinda long
2018-05-03T19:03:36Z edgar-rft: that's why I couldn't remember the CLHS chapter :-)
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2018-05-03T19:07:35Z phoe: "Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code"
2018-05-03T19:07:43Z phoe: 11.1.2.1.2.1.1.3.1.42
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2018-05-03T19:08:47Z edgar-rft: is this the longest?
2018-05-03T19:09:13Z phoe: edgar-rft: no, it actually doesn't exist.
2018-05-03T19:09:31Z edgar-rft: then I can use it as a variable name?
2018-05-03T19:09:36Z phoe: ...but, judging by your confusion, it certainly could.
2018-05-03T19:09:42Z phoe: edgar-rft: ...what as a variable name
2018-05-03T19:10:08Z phoe: because I just imagined (defvar *some-exceptions-to-constraints-to-...-safe-code* ..)
2018-05-03T19:10:11Z p_l: (defun |Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code| () 'dafuq )
2018-05-03T19:10:23Z phoe: just no
2018-05-03T19:10:37Z p_l: JUST YES
2018-05-03T19:10:49Z edgar-rft: SOME-EXCEPTIONS-TO-CONSTRAINTS-TO-ABRIDGED-COLLECTION-OF-RULES-ABOUT-THE-COMMON-LISP-PACKAGE-FOR-CONFORMING-PORTABLE-PROGRAMS-ADHERING-TO-THE-DEFINITION-OF-THE-STANDARD-FOR-SAFE-CODE
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2018-05-03T19:11:22Z phoe: edgar-rft: quick, get this on quicklisp before Xach notices that it makes completely no sense
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2018-05-03T19:12:14Z edgar-rft: if you look at PJB's code long enough, I'm sure it's already there
2018-05-03T19:12:29Z phoe: ...touché
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2018-05-03T19:19:48Z ealfonso: I wonder if it's very hard to get into a running lisp to change a value. or to force execution of a save-lisp-and-die, change something, and restart
2018-05-03T19:20:17Z phoe: ealfonso: um, wait - get into a running lisp to change a value?
2018-05-03T19:20:50Z phoe: what do you mean?
2018-05-03T19:21:34Z ealfonso: phoe I have a long-running service where I would like to change something that isn't configurable except by changing a variable's value
2018-05-03T19:22:14Z ealfonso: phoe probably a silly question and not too important. but I know using gdb it is possible to attach to a running process and change things around
2018-05-03T19:22:36Z MichaelRaskin: For Lisp you could want to use SLIME
2018-05-03T19:23:03Z MichaelRaskin: Or just run the service inside a normal SBCL instance inside screen/tmux, connect and issue the (setf …)
2018-05-03T19:24:01Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin can I use SLIME to connect to something that doesn't expose a swank server? how do I 'connect' to issue the (setf ...)?
2018-05-03T19:24:11Z phoe: ealfonso: make it run a swank server
2018-05-03T19:24:26Z phoe: you usually want these on long-running services anyway in order to introspect and debug the image
2018-05-03T19:24:26Z MichaelRaskin: What kind of control do you have over the service?
2018-05-03T19:24:38Z MichaelRaskin: Meh. REPL for the win.
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2018-05-03T19:25:04Z ealfonso: phoe that's a good point
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2018-05-03T19:25:19Z MichaelRaskin: But in any case, it is reasonable to have _some_ way to interact with the servuce
2018-05-03T19:25:59Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin yeah. I was curious if it could be done without a swank server, I have root access to the system where the process is running
2018-05-03T19:26:21Z MichaelRaskin: Is I/O redirected to /dev/null?
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2018-05-03T19:26:50Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin no. I can probably get into ldb by issuing ^C
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2018-05-03T19:27:08Z phoe: ealfonso: theoretically you could open up a tmux session, make it run SBCL, run your service from it, and still have access to stdio
2018-05-03T19:27:22Z phoe: you can connect to the tmux and have the default REPL available.
2018-05-03T19:27:55Z ealfonso: phoe actually the process is compiled to an executable using buildapp, so it's not an interactive repl
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2018-05-03T19:28:54Z ealfonso: phoe anyway, I think the suggestion to add a swank server is probably a good idea
2018-05-03T19:29:19Z phoe: ealfonso: in this case, make it use swank and add a start-server call as a part of its execution hooks.
2018-05-03T19:30:10Z ealfonso: phoe yeah, I can do this if I'm willing to kill the currently running process. which I am
2018-05-03T19:31:20Z ealfonso: I guess I could also attach to the process using gdb. but I would probably have no idea what to do
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2018-05-03T19:31:53Z MichaelRaskin: gdb + moving GC sounds like a recipe for pain
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2018-05-03T20:12:56Z zxcvz: ERROR: invalid number of arguments: 2. Anyone know how to tell SBCL to tell me where the error actually is?
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2018-05-03T20:15:29Z ealfonso: zxcvz do you see a stack trace, are you using SLIME or plain repl?
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2018-05-03T20:15:56Z zxcvz: I don't get any stack trace. Using repl through Sublime.
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2018-05-03T20:18:25Z Xach: zxcvz: that will land you in the debugger, which starts out with "0]". :backtrace will show the backtrace.
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2018-05-03T20:19:59Z zxcvz: Xach: I just get the error message. I never enter the debugger.
2018-05-03T20:20:45Z Xach: zxcvz: oh. i haven't used Sublime, so I'm not sure what it might be doing, but if you are using the sbcl repl directly it will enter the debugger on error. I'm not sure how to get help with what sublime is doing, sorry.
2018-05-03T20:21:01Z Xach: with emacs and slime, "v" will jump from the frame to the error location. it is handy.
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2018-05-03T20:22:22Z ealfonso: zxcvz I also use emacs and slime and it makes for a good debugging experience
2018-05-03T20:22:30Z zxcvz: xach: I get the same result using sbcl directly.
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2018-05-03T20:23:03Z zxcvz: ealfonso: never fancied emacs unfortunately.
2018-05-03T20:23:06Z Xach: zxcvz: Interesting! What do you type that shows that error message?
2018-05-03T20:23:10Z ealfonso: zxcvz maybe something is trapping your error? are you using a framework or library?
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2018-05-03T20:25:52Z zxcvz: Xach: Running a program. Apparently I've made some change some where. A bit irritating with just an error message without the debugger.
2018-05-03T20:26:15Z Xach: zxcvz: yeah, definitely. what program, if you don't mind sharing?
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2018-05-03T20:35:43Z zxcvz: Xach: clisp managed to give me better feedback. Found the error.
2018-05-03T20:35:53Z zxcvz: ealfonso: solved it with clisp
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2018-05-03T20:38:40Z rme: it's nice to have multiple CL implementations
2018-05-03T20:39:22Z aeth: In, practice, though, if you use enough libraries you're only going to get it to run on SBCL, CCL, and maybe ECL. At least, the libraries I've happened to use.
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2018-05-03T20:43:09Z Xof: well, all CL implementations that I've found to play with today have the opposite behaviour for (:method-combination foo x) than I sort-of want
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2018-05-03T20:43:26Z Xof: I wonder how much code breaks if I make sbcl behave my way
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2018-05-03T20:44:18Z Xof: (probably very little: see previous discussions about no-one using long-form method combination)
2018-05-03T20:45:48Z Bike: you want it to evaluate?
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2018-05-03T20:46:05Z Bike: i'll tell you what you're breaking. my beautiful machine method combo
2018-05-03T20:47:04Z Xof: here, have one of these: '
2018-05-03T20:48:52Z Xof: I am imagining code a bit like (let ((shared (cons nil nil))) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method foo (x) (car shared))) (defgeneric bar (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method bar (x) (cdr shared))))
2018-05-03T20:49:03Z Xof: where the method combination does stuff to shared
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2018-05-03T20:49:24Z Xof: I don't yet know if this is a good idea
2018-05-03T20:49:54Z Xof: but I know that it's not possible if you don't evaluate method combination args, whereas you can get the current de-facto standard behaviour by quoting everything
2018-05-03T20:50:15Z Xof: or choosing self-evaluating things for your mc arguments
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2018-05-03T20:52:48Z Xof: I don't know.  This is probably not the hill I should be trying to climb, let alone making my last stand on
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2018-05-03T20:54:09Z Bike: yeah, i don't see any reason not to evaluate really
2018-05-03T20:54:24Z Bike: i did the same thing a while back trying to figure out if the options returned by make-method-lambda are evaluated
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2018-05-04T00:11:06Z White_Flame: If I have a macro which should build up a hash table in a lexical scope for runtime code to use, what's the best way to do that?  (let ((table ,populated-table)) ...) doesn't seem to be valid source code
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2018-05-04T00:23:24Z Bike: what do you mean
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2018-05-04T00:30:20Z pfdietz: You want the code generated from the macro to refer to the same hash table everywhere?
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2018-05-04T00:45:33Z White_Flame: sorry, was afk for a bit.  I run a compiler at compile-time, contained to a lexical scope.  Some of its output should be exposed to the runtime as a hashtable.  This generated function body should be able to run multiple times, seeing the same (read-only) hashtable which was populated at compile-time
2018-05-04T00:46:31Z White_Flame: so it's not the same hash table everywhere; each instance of it should have its own table it sees
2018-05-04T00:47:47Z Bike: well, your code seems fine, so i'm missing something
2018-05-04T00:48:23Z White_Flame: I'm cleaning up old hacks, as well as fixing up code isn't working on new SBCL releases
2018-05-04T00:48:58Z White_Flame: so code isn't fine, but I'm also not sure that the crashes I'm hitting are related to this setup step
2018-05-04T00:49:12Z Bike: i mean, having a literal hash table there is valid.
2018-05-04T00:49:12Z White_Flame: however, it's a hack I wish to eliminate, so gathering thoughts on a way this could be done
2018-05-04T00:49:37Z White_Flame: hmm, interesting
2018-05-04T00:51:24Z White_Flame: that wasn't working years ago, hence lots of workarounds.  Might have been various pebcak problems
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2018-05-04T02:04:03Z aeth: White_Flame: I don't see it as a hack, I see it as a valuable feature... that you can trivially make custom classes/structs also be able to do.
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2018-05-04T02:05:55Z aeth: Trivial compile time evaluation is one of the last major remaining secret weapons CL has.
2018-05-04T02:07:22Z pfdietz: You could have multiple files using the macro, compiled at different times.  How do you resolve the hash table differences?
2018-05-04T02:08:49Z pfdietz: Ah wait, different hash tables in different places...
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2018-05-04T02:10:09Z pfdietz: One trick is to propagate values in the macroexpansion environment.  I've used that for compile time lexical information.
2018-05-04T02:10:34Z pfdietz: But that's for propagating information to other macros.
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2018-05-04T02:23:49Z White_Flame: aeth: the hack in place is to have a single global hashtable of hashtables, with gensyms per location doing a looup on invocation
2018-05-04T02:23:56Z White_Flame: *lookup
2018-05-04T02:24:54Z White_Flame: ie, the code tested originally which tried to place hashtables in source code blew up.  Now, I dont' recall if that was because of fasl loading or whatnot.  Almost every problem we hit seems to be because we do appliation servers that are deployed as executable images, which then load up more code at the deployment site
2018-05-04T02:25:32Z White_Flame: and the whole "just snapshot an image and resume" plays havoc with that model
2018-05-04T02:26:05Z Bike: well to dump a hash table all the keys and values need to be dumpable
2018-05-04T02:26:16Z Bike: so if the values are, say, functions, which can't be dumped, that's a problem
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2018-05-04T02:26:56Z White_Flame: um, yeah, the hashtable values contain functions
2018-05-04T02:27:44Z Bike: alright, so it won't work
2018-05-04T02:27:47Z Bike: my mistake
2018-05-04T02:27:51Z Bike: functions are not externalizable
2018-05-04T02:28:15Z White_Flame: ah, ok.  Then it makes sense that it didn't work
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2018-05-04T02:59:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-04T03:01:04Z clintm: Good morning, beach!
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2018-05-04T03:18:19Z aeth: White_Flame: What kind of functions? If they're 'foo instead of #'foo or lambda it should afaik be OK to funcall because it will look it up at runtime
2018-05-04T03:18:32Z White_Flame: they're functions generated by the compiler
2018-05-04T03:18:42Z aeth: You'd just need to make sure the symbol name is valid at runtime
2018-05-04T03:18:49Z Bike: 'foo instead of #'foo, known as "not functions"
2018-05-04T03:18:56Z aeth: Well funcalling a symbol
2018-05-04T03:19:02Z White_Flame: function objects
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2018-05-04T03:21:57Z _berke_: hi.  I recall reading that there was something like a with-symbols macro but I can't find it
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2018-05-04T03:22:33Z beach: WITH-GENSYMS is a popular one.
2018-05-04T03:22:49Z _berke_: oh that's what it was.  thanks
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2018-05-04T03:23:20Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-05-04T03:26:16Z jack_rabbit: Woo! My cl-gopher library is now in quicklisp!
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2018-05-04T03:28:26Z _berke_: now slime question.  when you have erroneous code and hit C-c C-k slime asks you if you want to load the fasl.  I don't, how can I get slime to STFU in that situation.
2018-05-04T03:29:57Z _berke_: oh wait I found it, slime load failed fasl in customization group
2018-05-04T03:30:04Z _berke_: they thought of everything
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2018-05-04T03:45:55Z jack_rabbit: How do I get the documentation string from a defpackage?
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2018-05-04T03:52:00Z beach: clhs documentation
2018-05-04T03:52:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-05-04T03:52:25Z beach: jack_rabbit: Look at that page under "Packages:"
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2018-05-04T03:53:25Z jack_rabbit: lispworks has been down for me. :( That's why I'm asking here.
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2018-05-04T03:53:39Z jack_rabbit: my usual clhs site seems to be down as well.
2018-05-04T03:53:50Z beach: Why don't you have it locally?
2018-05-04T03:54:11Z jack_rabbit: because I'm an idiot.
2018-05-04T03:54:17Z beach: I just accessed that page on LispWorks, so it is up again.
2018-05-04T03:54:25Z jack_rabbit: hmmmm...
2018-05-04T03:54:54Z aeth: Personally, I use the online quicklisp because I can search it through !l1sp on DuckDuckGo (that's actually one of several supported sites), and I have a local copy as a backup for when the website is down or I am offline.
2018-05-04T03:55:00Z aeth: It's nice to have the backup, though.
2018-05-04T03:55:03Z clintm: I swear there is, or used to be, a ql-installable package that starts a server in whatever image you load it on that has it.
2018-05-04T03:56:22Z clintm: huh, I guess not.
2018-05-04T03:57:44Z jack_rabbit: hmmmm. (documentation 'package-name t) does not return my docstring... I must be doing something wrong in the defpackage.
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2018-05-04T03:58:05Z Bike: (documentation (find-package package-name) t)
2018-05-04T03:58:06Z jack_rabbit: ahh, wait.
2018-05-04T03:58:07Z beach: Yes, it says explicitly that it has to be a package object.
2018-05-04T03:58:07Z jack_rabbit: Yes.
2018-05-04T03:58:22Z jack_rabbit: Bike, beach, just figured it out. Thanks.
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2018-05-04T03:59:21Z beach: jack_rabbit: In the long run, you will save a lot of time by learning how to interpret the (sometimes a bit cryptic) dictionary pages of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2018-05-04T04:00:00Z jack_rabbit: beach, Yes, I need to get better at that. I realized my mistake, but not quick enough.
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2018-05-04T04:00:50Z beach: Sure.  You are right to ask.  I am just giving you hints for future activities. :)
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2018-05-04T04:10:13Z jack_rabbit: beach, Thanks. :)
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2018-05-04T04:22:28Z _berke_: I'm trying some cl-cuda examples and I wrote a simple macro, but as soon as I use quasiquotations I get a ton of SBCL warnings.  https://pastebin.com/FMpVhysG  (test1 totoro) is fine, (test2 totoro) gives warnings
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2018-05-04T04:24:01Z _berke_: the warnings: https://pastebin.com/NhDRHwVL
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2018-05-04T04:32:41Z _berke_: interestingly if I use (intern (symbol-name (gensym))) instead of straight up (gensym) it works, but I have no idea why or if this is correct
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2018-05-04T04:59:20Z Bike: use (gensym) where? is with-gensyms your own macro?
2018-05-04T05:00:32Z beach: _berke_: It is not.  You would get all kinds of conflicts in nested macro calls.
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2018-05-04T06:19:26Z shka: hey folks
2018-05-04T06:19:55Z shka: what is your opinion on check-type versus signaling your own condition?
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2018-05-04T06:47:36Z pillton: shka: I usually do (assert (typep x type)) to avoid the use-value restart messing with type inference.
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2018-05-04T06:56:56Z _death: won't the new value be checked as well?
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2018-05-04T07:03:05Z pillton: It appears not.
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2018-05-04T07:04:43Z pillton: Oh it is checked. The fact that an arbitrary value can be stored in the variable is probably the problem.
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2018-05-04T07:14:30Z _death: seems sbcl has no issue with it?
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2018-05-04T07:36:10Z pillton: Hmm.. I'd have to find the problem I thought it was an issue for.
2018-05-04T07:38:02Z pillton: This is the best I can do at the moment: https://hastebin.com/xuriqocopa.lisp
2018-05-04T07:39:04Z pillton: I have to run. I'll check in later.
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2018-05-04T11:25:58Z jeosol: jmercouris?
2018-05-04T11:26:35Z jeosol: I tried to get you here for a while. been away from here.
2018-05-04T11:27:13Z jeosol: I did not hear back from Mike Maul yet, and it seems I will proceed with the ML examples later, just start and out and change things based on reviews later.
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2018-05-04T11:40:38Z capitaomorte: Hi there. Is there a MAP* function in CL that APPLYies the function to each element instead of FUNCALLing it?
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2018-05-04T11:42:46Z flip214: capitaomorte: not in CL, no. but it's very easy to do, right?
2018-05-04T11:43:18Z capitaomorte: yeah, of course. I was looking for a concise idiom
2018-05-04T11:44:16Z capitaomorte: the goal is to process an array of JSON objects (converted to plists) using a destructuring lambda spec.
2018-05-04T11:44:42Z xificurC: you mean like (defun mapap (f x) (mapcar (lambda (y) (apply f y)) x))
2018-05-04T11:45:06Z capitaomorte: xificurC: yes
2018-05-04T11:45:55Z xificurC: capitaomorte: seems pretty concise to me
2018-05-04T11:46:35Z capitaomorte: yeah, consice isn't the right word, I meant built-in
2018-05-04T11:50:08Z shka: capitaomorte: (map nil (alexandria:curry #'apply function) sequence)
2018-05-04T11:50:20Z shka: something like that would do i think
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2018-05-04T11:51:44Z capitaomorte: yeah, that's not bad, and you use mapcar if you coerce sequence
2018-05-04T11:52:19Z shka: mapcar won't work on vectors, though
2018-05-04T11:52:31Z capitaomorte: you coerce them
2018-05-04T11:52:55Z capitaomorte: (mapcar (alexandria:curry #'apply function) (coerce sequence 'list)) should work
2018-05-04T11:53:18Z shka: not a huge fan of that, but yeah, it will work
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2018-05-04T11:53:42Z capitaomorte: who knows what MAP is doing under the hood... :-)
2018-05-04T11:54:14Z shka: hopefully it does not do that
2018-05-04T11:54:33Z shka: beacuse memory and stuff
2018-05-04T11:54:47Z capitaomorte: why do you think it's bad? For short sequences its OK i think
2018-05-04T11:55:19Z capitaomorte: shka: I see what you mean
2018-05-04T11:55:26Z shka: because out of the sudden algorithm that is O(1) for memory becomes O(n)
2018-05-04T11:55:34Z shka: and that's baaaaaaaaaaad
2018-05-04T11:55:50Z capitaomorte: I don't think your map solution is O(1), is it?
2018-05-04T11:56:07Z shka: especially since large lists can require huge ammounts of memory
2018-05-04T11:56:15Z shka: damn, even iteration on lists is slower
2018-05-04T11:56:27Z shka: capitaomorte: for memory? sure it is
2018-05-04T11:56:32Z shka: obviously not for the runtime
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2018-05-04T11:57:26Z capitaomorte: then use a compiler macro to coerce away the coerce
2018-05-04T11:57:30Z capitaomorte: :-)
2018-05-04T11:58:00Z shka: capitaomorte: that works just for literals
2018-05-04T11:59:19Z flip214: shka: yeah, well, an explizit LOOP seems to be faster than the (MAP (COERCE)).... naturally.
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2018-05-04T11:59:27Z capitaomorte: I don't know. I never tried it, I don't see why it couldn't recognize the MAPCAR/COERCE pattern and turn it into your MAP
2018-05-04T11:59:50Z flip214: although I'd hoped that this would be simply dispatched to a different MAPCAR function that takes a simple-vector as input.
2018-05-04T12:00:17Z capitaomorte: but anyway, you're probably right for large seqs it's a bad ideia
2018-05-04T12:00:49Z shka: capitaomorte: well, in theory it could, but why would you implement something like that for such trivial case that can be fixed by writting code properly?
2018-05-04T12:00:50Z flip214: a (MAP 'LIST ...) becomes just a call to SB-KERNEL:%MAP-TO-LIST-ARITY-1 on SBCL
2018-05-04T12:01:33Z capitaomorte: shka: because OCD, obviously
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2018-05-04T12:01:43Z flip214: shka: because it might be easy to detect and optimize in the compiler, too?
2018-05-04T12:01:52Z flip214: and that would help for macro-generated code as well
2018-05-04T12:02:16Z flip214: think a macro that did MAPCAR and the input was a COERCE, because the macro "needs" a list...
2018-05-04T12:02:24Z capitaomorte: anyway, making garbage is not as bad as people often assume, at least on Allegro
2018-05-04T12:02:28Z shka: flip214: well, you can simply stick to map 'list in your macro code
2018-05-04T12:03:11Z shka: fancyness is not required here
2018-05-04T12:03:23Z capitaomorte: it's sometimes worse to let objects go into its "oldspace" where the GC has a much harder time finding them.
2018-05-04T12:03:59Z capitaomorte: but this is a detail of some optimization workshop I mostly forgot about
2018-05-04T12:04:31Z shka: capitaomorte: it is ok as long as your objects won't simply exhaust whole heap
2018-05-04T12:04:44Z shka: and coercing very large vector to list can do do that
2018-05-04T12:04:52Z flip214: shka: that would be slower if the input cannot be proven to be a list, I guess. not sure if there are other drawbacks.
2018-05-04T12:05:00Z capitaomorte: yep, agree exhausting heap is not good :-)
2018-05-04T12:05:07Z flip214: shka: but basically you're right.
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2018-05-04T12:08:00Z jmercouris: jeosol: Ok, sounds good, too bad you didn't get a response
2018-05-04T12:08:17Z shka: besides, triggering GC hurts those who aim to obtain real time
2018-05-04T12:10:08Z capitaomorte: know anyone who's trying to obtain real time in CL? (asking honestly)
2018-05-04T12:10:37Z shka: capitaomorte: hard real time? nope. But take a look at #lispgames
2018-05-04T12:10:56Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
2018-05-04T12:11:05Z shka: theemacsshibe[m]: greetings!
2018-05-04T12:11:17Z phoe: heyy
2018-05-04T12:11:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: Good evening shka
2018-05-04T12:11:56Z capitaomorte: shka: yeah, but "triggering GC" is more than just a binary thing. In many situations, if i remember that lecture, it's better to trigger it very often.
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2018-05-04T12:12:41Z capitaomorte: shka: and actually better to use non-destructive, garbage-making, list-processing, for example
2018-05-04T12:12:46Z jmercouris: capitaomorte: yes, there is someone aeth I believe
2018-05-04T12:12:52Z jmercouris: he is working on a "no-consing" main game loop
2018-05-04T12:13:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: I suppose doing it more gives you less crap to collect per GC cycle
2018-05-04T12:13:25Z shka: capitaomorte: on average, you are right!
2018-05-04T12:13:36Z capitaomorte: theemacsshibe[m]: more or less
2018-05-04T12:13:39Z jmercouris: is he though? isn't that largely GC implementation dependent
2018-05-04T12:13:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: Although we're passed mark and sweep collectors my knowledge resides in, wouldn't there be some constant factor in marking or grouping used data?
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2018-05-04T12:13:54Z jmercouris: I bet the number of objects in the universe is more important than how many need to be cleaned up
2018-05-04T12:13:55Z shka: jmercouris: large heaps is problem on it's own
2018-05-04T12:14:02Z capitaomorte: jmercouris: yes, for sure. The lecture compared Allegro with SBCL and results were quite different
2018-05-04T12:14:39Z flip214: if you manage to work with a fixed amount of memory (preallocated everything), the GC won't be triggered later on
2018-05-04T12:14:42Z jmercouris: there's a reason why no games do free /malloc in c++ during gametime
2018-05-04T12:14:48Z shka: well, we have to distinguish average performance and variance in expected time to finish
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2018-05-04T12:15:06Z shka: if you are going real time, you are looking at the second parameter
2018-05-04T12:15:17Z jmercouris: I think the key is to keep the performance as constant as possible
2018-05-04T12:15:29Z jmercouris: what would you prefer, a game that ran at 200fps but dropped to 5 every 10 seconds, or a game that runs at 20 fps?
2018-05-04T12:15:37Z shka: for real time, yes
2018-05-04T12:15:49Z shka: for anything else? meh
2018-05-04T12:15:54Z shka: nobody cares
2018-05-04T12:15:57Z jmercouris: I care
2018-05-04T12:16:10Z jmercouris: I'm just kidding, btw :P
2018-05-04T12:16:16Z shka: well, right now i am running clustering algorithm
2018-05-04T12:16:22Z jmercouris: Ah, yes, good times, which one?
2018-05-04T12:16:36Z shka: it will take like 10 minutes to chew data
2018-05-04T12:16:43Z jmercouris: you must have a very small dataset
2018-05-04T12:16:45Z shka: i don't care if it is real time :P
2018-05-04T12:17:01Z shka: around 418 thousand samples
2018-05-04T12:17:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: Idea: replace GC algorithms with prediction if the user cares about response time
2018-05-04T12:17:34Z shka: but it is CLARA so it does not care about data set size
2018-05-04T12:17:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: Bad times: when you're about to blow someone's head out.
2018-05-04T12:17:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: Good times: when you're figuring out how to deal with the cave spiders about to kill you next turn.
2018-05-04T12:17:49Z jmercouris: theemacsshibe[m]: games already do this
2018-05-04T12:17:56Z jmercouris: loading screens in between levels, stuff like that
2018-05-04T12:18:03Z jmercouris: deallocation and reallocating new assets
2018-05-04T12:18:33Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's it, I'm suing them for taking my idea before I knew I had it!
2018-05-04T12:18:49Z jmercouris: best of luck :)
2018-05-04T12:19:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: Not even, I'm saying when the game is quiet a clever engine could GC or reallocate without problems
2018-05-04T12:19:16Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: "Dynamic Optimizations for SBCL Garbage Collection"
2018-05-04T12:19:19Z flip214: was a talk at ELS 2018
2018-05-04T12:19:21Z jmercouris: theemacsshibe[m]: that is also already done
2018-05-04T12:19:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: For example, if I'm waiting at site A and everyone's at B, might as well collect since no one's going to rush in and blow me up.
2018-05-04T12:19:48Z theemacsshibe[m]: Wow, nice.
2018-05-04T12:19:50Z flip214: but it seems that the paper is not online
2018-05-04T12:19:56Z shka: oh, i really can't wait for els videos to go online!
2018-05-04T12:19:56Z phoe: flip214: huh? it ought to be
2018-05-04T12:20:01Z phoe: the whole proceedings should be online
2018-05-04T12:20:16Z phoe: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/static/proceedings/2018.pdf
2018-05-04T12:20:33Z phoe: page 12
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2018-05-04T12:21:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: It could also be argued using digital bombs to destroy digital models of nice maps could also be a form of GC.
2018-05-04T12:21:38Z flip214: phoe: sorry, I didn't find the presentation. yeah, the paper is in the PDF as well.
2018-05-04T12:22:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: Okay I have a new game, I'm selling it for (sqrt -1) dollars on Steam with vim keybinds
2018-05-04T12:22:16Z phoe: flip214: oh, correct.
2018-05-04T12:22:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: You have two teams and a heap of thingamabobs between them
2018-05-04T12:22:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: One team tries to save the thingamabobs and the other tries to break them somehow. Broken thingamabobs are freed on the server.
2018-05-04T12:23:17Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: http://psdoom.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
2018-05-04T12:23:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: This is like that Doom thing where monsters are Unix processes but more dangerous
2018-05-04T12:24:59Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: so you're thinking about the "all instances" thing[1] and doing randomized CHANGE-CLASS on them on a production system?
2018-05-04T12:25:02Z flip214: Ad 1: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3202586082692327@naggum.net.html
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2018-05-04T12:26:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: It's 10:30 pm here.
2018-05-04T12:26:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hi Cal
2018-05-04T12:26:46Z calher: I'm lucky I saw you in another channel and found your freenode nick.
2018-05-04T12:27:22Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: Melbourne?
2018-05-04T12:27:24Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm saying we get rid of the GC and let players decide what should be freed by shooting representations of them.
2018-05-04T12:27:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: How'd ya know?
2018-05-04T12:28:15Z flip214: guessed from your time zone
2018-05-04T12:28:30Z flip214: No worries, mate ;)
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2018-05-04T12:30:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: I have plans to use emus with WD40 to take out rust users
2018-05-04T12:32:20Z flip214: what about the go people?
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2018-05-04T12:33:29Z shka: flip214: large force of gophers with automatic weaponry
2018-05-04T12:34:23Z theemacsshibe[m]: Kangaroos.
2018-05-04T12:34:57Z shka: yes, they will never see it coming
2018-05-04T12:34:57Z beach: DeepMind.
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2018-05-04T12:37:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: This is Australia, we couldn't do anything with our copper tin can networks.
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2018-05-04T12:43:00Z theemacsshibe[m] gives magic GNU🦄PONUT a vegetable burger she got from the barbeque
2018-05-04T12:43:49Z GNUPONUT[m] eats the Burger and licks no-defun-allowed
2018-05-04T12:44:15Z theemacsshibe[m]: :3
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2018-05-04T12:47:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: Alright, back to Lisp.
2018-05-04T12:50:02Z calher speaks with lithp
2018-05-04T12:50:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: Why isn't tail recursion something we do a lot in Lisp? (Scheme is pretty much built on it, having no imperative style loops, but CL isn't very good at them.)
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2018-05-04T12:50:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: If I wanted to write some function as a normal maths thing, I'd probably use tail recursion.
2018-05-04T12:50:49Z calher: Because Lisp is a bastard.
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2018-05-04T12:51:23Z theemacsshibe[m] sp eak si nto ngu es
2018-05-04T12:51:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: :|
2018-05-04T12:52:25Z theemacsshibe[m]: | ;; in case anyone is reading symbols today
2018-05-04T12:53:56Z p_l: theemacsshibe[m]: it's a matter of style - some code depends a lot on tail calls, especially when wirtten for implementations that do TCO, but generally we enjoy having powerful iteration constructs
2018-05-04T12:54:23Z p_l: some of the code normally enabled by TCO resurfaces in CL in much, much weirder forms...
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2018-05-04T13:02:12Z shka: p_l: ha! let me show ya! https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/ee8c3d07e1e2b636b04eaa76abb28ec7e33dfb18/src/utils/macros.lisp#L182
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2018-05-04T15:06:55Z jeosol: jmercouris: I will work start working the machine learning example applications and update them over time. What I mean is, could start with simple data structures, and eventually replace with libraries after I make additional research
2018-05-04T15:08:35Z jeosol: I will find some domain to put the examples over time. I think I saw some blas related info in the array chapter on CL cookbook.
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2018-05-04T16:13:35Z jmercouris: jeosol: what is "blas"?
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2018-05-04T16:16:06Z jeosol: jmercouris: BLAS and LAPACK and algebra libraries for solving things like eigen-value problems, solving for x in Ax=b type of problems.
2018-05-04T16:17:07Z jmercouris: ah very cool, I did not know about these
2018-05-04T16:17:15Z jeosol: For instance, if I do, linear regression problem, I could solve the problem with matrix inversion (small problems) or go with conjugate gradient descent.
2018-05-04T16:17:56Z jeosol: My plan is to start raw, e.g., use loop for the conjugate gradient descent calculations
2018-05-04T16:18:26Z jeosol: and then later, I can replace functionalities with existing libraries like CLML and MGL
2018-05-04T16:18:59Z jmercouris: I assume this is only one problem space you have in mind right?
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2018-05-04T16:19:26Z jmercouris: You are probably thinking about other data sets / models as well, or are you only interested in linear regressions?
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2018-05-04T16:27:58Z jeosol: jmercouris: No, it is general, I am trying to show that CL can be use for these ML problems.
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2018-05-04T16:28:13Z jeosol: problem is that it could be painful given the tons of resources in python and R,
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2018-05-04T16:28:40Z jeosol: my plan is to reproduce the problems in the cousera machine learning course for instance. It is lot of problems, but I could do it over time.
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2018-05-04T16:29:37Z jeosol: the problems conver different algorithms linear regression, logsitic regression, neural nets, SVM's, PCA, etc. With such effort, we can start aggregating CL resources for these applications.
2018-05-04T16:29:51Z obi-cons-cdrobi: jeosol: more traditional algorithms (like decision tree, etc.) have very nice Lisp implementations. I've been thinking about throwing together some NN library, but haven't had time. I hacked together a decision tree implementation that I wouldn't mind sharing, if you're interested
2018-05-04T16:29:55Z jeosol: My quick check of CLML shows they have some tools for these
2018-05-04T16:30:17Z jeosol: oh sure, obi-cons-cdrobi
2018-05-04T16:30:25Z jeosol: and I forgot to mention NNs
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2018-05-04T16:31:16Z jeosol: I recently looked at Gabor Melis code for the Higgs Boson project, I was able to bring to compile with latest SBCL, but lack of GPU makes the training take more than 24 hours Gabor mentioned
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2018-05-04T16:32:29Z jeosol: I used C4.5 decision tree algorithm through lisp via system call for a project a while ago.
2018-05-04T16:34:19Z obi-cons-cdrobi: jeosol: https://github.com/obicons/decision-tree. It's a little rough, I hacked it together for a uni project a year ago or so. But it does work and adequately demonstrates why symbolic computation is good for solving a specific subset of AI problems
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2018-05-04T16:34:46Z obi-cons-cdrobi: It needs some small modifications to support continuous data types, but as-is supports discrete values quite well
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2018-05-04T16:35:46Z jeosol: Great thanks for the link. I see you used ID3 algorithm
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2018-05-04T16:37:36Z obi-cons-cdrobi: yep. I played around with this a lot in SBCL to get it to generate somewhat efficient machine-code (hence the generous usage of symbolic identifiers). By the time that I was done, the disassembled code was actually informative.
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2018-05-04T16:39:17Z jmercouris: jeosol: interesting goal, have you set-up an organization yet?
2018-05-04T16:39:35Z jeosol: what do you mean by organization?
2018-05-04T16:39:54Z jmercouris: well, an organization to work on the code, maybe a github organization, or some gitlab page
2018-05-04T16:39:58Z jmercouris: maybe it's not so important early on
2018-05-04T16:40:04Z jeosol: That is what I thought but I didn't want to assume
2018-05-04T16:40:11Z jmercouris: but if you'd like to collaborate/merge resources from several places, might become uesful
2018-05-04T16:40:15Z jmercouris: s/uesful/useful
2018-05-04T16:40:16Z jeosol: No, I have not, but I do have a github and gitlab account
2018-05-04T16:40:33Z jeosol: Yes, this was why I reached out to the CLML guys.
2018-05-04T16:40:47Z jeosol: Like work the examples using that library as much as possible.
2018-05-04T16:40:51Z jmercouris: well, since they are unresponsive, you know what to do, make a new standard :D
2018-05-04T16:40:56Z jeosol: They do have a nice wine dataset example.
2018-05-04T16:41:38Z jeosol: I can work through those examples, I want to make sure it is clear and logical. The course goes through different realistic applications. Eventually, I will have to pull a lot of resources, change libraries, functionalities, etc
2018-05-04T16:42:01Z jeosol: this was why I wanted reviewers, that will look at things, make suggestions, etc. Seems I got two so far.
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2018-05-04T16:43:25Z jeosol: I also sent an email to Gabor about using his code, didn't get any reply. I assume his was busy. Since he put it in public domain, may be he didn't matter, but I wanted to pick his brain on where he thinks work needs to be done
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2018-05-04T16:45:35Z jeosol: jmercouris: I think the organization part is important. I will think of where to make the posts for instance. I will also need to know that people use when they intersperse code and write up. I have seen some CL-jupyter or notebook
2018-05-04T16:45:41Z jeosol: but I have not used any of those
2018-05-04T16:46:11Z jmercouris: probably mostly org mode with babel
2018-05-04T16:48:48Z jeosol: ok, cool. I have used org mode, will check for the latest tools.
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2018-05-04T16:50:15Z jeosol: http://mmaul.github.io/clml/
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2018-05-04T16:50:50Z jeosol: That is Mike Maul's github clml link
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2018-05-04T16:52:34Z jmercouris: jeosol: maybe a good start would be to take his project, and finish documenting it
2018-05-04T16:52:38Z jeosol: there is a lot of algorithms there already, blas/lapack wrappers, pca, etc. I will reach out again, possibly another avenue.
2018-05-04T16:52:50Z jmercouris: there is just so much documentation missing
2018-05-04T16:53:01Z jeosol: jmercouris: I agree
2018-05-04T16:53:21Z jmercouris: my only real issue is the LGPL license, so very limiting
2018-05-04T16:53:24Z jeosol: They have good starting base already, and it will make sense to work off that and collaborate with them.
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2018-05-04T16:53:31Z jeosol: Oh, I didn't see that
2018-05-04T16:53:55Z jmercouris: I don't want to start a holy war, but I feel like lisp should always be BSD
2018-05-04T16:54:14Z jeosol: hmm, interesting
2018-05-04T16:54:21Z jmercouris: especially due to the "library" nature of the language
2018-05-04T16:54:24Z random-nick: jmercouris: why?
2018-05-04T16:54:46Z jmercouris: random-nick: because it's so easy to build off of another package compared to other languages, and license restrictions incompatibilties can be a huge mess
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2018-05-04T16:55:32Z jeosol: gabor's mgl is MIT licence but mostly NN
2018-05-04T16:55:36Z random-nick: just have it all GPL
2018-05-04T16:55:36Z jmercouris: when developing applications, GPL is okay, but when developing libs, I learn towards BSD
2018-05-04T16:55:50Z jmercouris: s/learn/lean
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2018-05-04T16:56:08Z jmercouris: random-nick: what if somebody wishes to use the lib in a commercial product?
2018-05-04T16:56:35Z random-nick: commercial does not always imply proprietary
2018-05-04T16:57:06Z jmercouris: random-nick: what if somebody wishes to use the lib in a *viable commercial product?
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2018-05-04T16:57:27Z jmercouris: I can count the amount of succesful open source companies on one hand, but anyways, this is off-topic and the war I did not wish to start
2018-05-04T16:57:36Z jeosol: I didn't even see this part when I initially reached out to Mike
2018-05-04T16:58:14Z jeosol: hopefully, this doesn't add a big kink, i.e., they may be willing to relax things.
2018-05-04T16:59:01Z jeosol: My plan is to document the examples and put it in public domain, and since they have stuff going, it seem reasonable to align with them
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2018-05-04T16:59:22Z jmercouris: yeah, you can even license your own changes in a different way
2018-05-04T16:59:31Z jmercouris: maybe the lib could be frozen and used as a dependency
2018-05-04T16:59:39Z jmercouris: and then you just build on top of it, override it, document it, whatever
2018-05-04T16:59:52Z jmercouris: still a little restrictive, but less so
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2018-05-04T17:02:05Z jeosol: good points jmercouris
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2018-05-04T17:02:38Z jeosol: Well, if it is frozen, and they want to hand it over to another maintainer or sth, that will be fine.
2018-05-04T17:03:03Z jmercouris: yeah, just won't be able to necessarily merge things upstream, which is fine, since development has ceased
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2018-05-04T17:03:34Z jeosol: eventually have a way to merge it with gabor's mgl library and viola, we have one big ML lib
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2018-05-04T17:04:03Z jmercouris: yeah, could be pretty cool
2018-05-04T17:04:26Z jmercouris: probably isn't too hard to put the two systems into one, the harder part will be making the API uniform
2018-05-04T17:05:57Z jeosol: I agree, I take that back
2018-05-04T17:06:04Z jeosol: it will be better to leave them separate
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2018-05-04T17:06:38Z jeosol: I looked at Gabor's code in some a bit of detail. Excellent features with flexibility to take advantage of CUDA if available
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2018-05-04T17:07:34Z jeosol: btw, pardon guys, I think Mike Maul was a maintainer for that code and his activity is frozen. The library was forked from a company in Japan. Mathematical Systems Inc. mathematical-systems
2018-05-04T17:07:48Z jeosol: They are the once I should contact I guess see any library issues.
2018-05-04T17:07:59Z jmercouris: I was wondering what "MSI" stood for
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2018-05-04T17:08:30Z jmercouris: I wish I knew someone who spoke Japanese to refer you to a translator
2018-05-04T17:09:17Z jeosol: however, Mike's branch is more recent so it is better to pick it up from him
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2018-05-04T17:09:24Z jeosol: hahaha
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2018-05-04T17:10:37Z jeosol: So I am back to Mike again. I will contact him, ask about the license issue and get back.
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2018-05-04T17:17:24Z jeosol: jmercouris: I sent an email to one of the Asian guys. Hopefully, I hear back, if not, I will just go ahead like you suggested. Hopefully, it doesn't bring any issues.
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2018-05-04T17:22:13Z jmercouris: jeosol: fingers crossed!
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2018-05-04T17:24:45Z Fade:           
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2018-05-04T17:30:09Z phoe: Fade: interesting
2018-05-04T17:30:56Z Fade: my DSL line driver puked, and seemed to send an errant newline. sorry.
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2018-05-04T17:32:10Z phoe: hah, no problem. (: Happened to me a few times as well.
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2018-05-04T17:32:41Z Fade: it's really quite amazing that anything ever works.
2018-05-04T17:33:13Z dlowe: an optimist I see
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2018-05-04T17:33:40Z jeosol: jmercouris: Hope so. I will wait, see if he replies, before starting to work on the examples.
2018-05-04T17:34:37Z Fade: :)
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2018-05-05T04:31:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-05T06:07:13Z phoe: Hey beach!
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2018-05-05T07:10:57Z beach: scymtym: For Second Climacs, I want the reader to return parse-results, or as I call them in Second Climacs "wad"s.  A wad is a nested data structure that contains source positions corresponding to the start and the end of the thing that was read, and also a list of children, which are also wads.  And the children are represented as a list of wads in the order that they were read.
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2018-05-05T07:12:05Z beach: Furthermore, non-expressions are included, so that there are comment wads, etc.
2018-05-05T07:12:35Z beach: I need to program Eclector to return wads.
2018-05-05T07:12:43Z beach: I have several options:
2018-05-05T07:13:00Z beach: 1. Just do it.
2018-05-05T07:13:29Z beach: 2. Add the possibility for Eclector to return wads, just the way it can now return CSTs.
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2018-05-05T07:14:13Z beach: The thing is complicated by the fact that in Second Climacs I ultimately want CSTs as well.
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2018-05-05T07:15:03Z beach: So then, for solution 1 I can convert wads to CSTs.  Just drop the non-expressions and apply a similar technique that Eclector itself uses to construct a CST from a bunch of children.
2018-05-05T07:15:27Z beach: With solution 2, there are two sub-options:
2018-05-05T07:15:58Z beach: 2.1 Use solution 1, but include it in the Eclector repository.
2018-05-05T07:16:34Z beach: 2.2 Use solution 2, and factor the code so that there is no duplication, i.e. build the CSTs from the wads.
2018-05-05T07:17:05Z beach: scymtym: Any suggestions?
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2018-05-05T07:19:07Z beach: The thing is complicated by the fact that, for Second Climacs, I want to make the parser incremental.  I guess I need to think about the interaction between the cache manager and the reader.  It is entirely possible that it can not be turned incremental with solution 2.
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2018-05-05T07:20:30Z phoe: beach: for an incomplete expression, is it possible that you return a "special" wad at the end of each list of children that is used as a mark that this expression is incomplete?
2018-05-05T07:21:10Z phoe: I imagine that for an incomplete expression "(1 2 3" it could be a list resembling (#<WAD 1> #<WAD 2> #<WAD 3> #<EOF-WAD>) or something similar.
2018-05-05T07:21:31Z beach: I do that.  It is called EOF-WAD.
2018-05-05T07:21:34Z phoe: If a list contains an EOF-WAD, then the expression is incomplete, but you can nonetheless return the parse result.
2018-05-05T07:21:38Z phoe: Hah!
2018-05-05T07:22:01Z beach: Yes, I do need to improve it so that there are several types of EOF-WADs
2018-05-05T07:22:03Z phoe: And if you can return a parse result, then you should be able to make your parser incremental nonetheless.
2018-05-05T07:22:24Z beach: One would be an incomplete list, one and incomplete token, etc.
2018-05-05T07:22:45Z beach: It's not clear...
2018-05-05T07:23:17Z beach: The wad-reader would need to be a generic function.
2018-05-05T07:23:35Z beach: That way, I can define and :AROUND method that consults the cache.
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2018-05-05T07:23:51Z beach: It would not call CALL-NEXT-METHOD if there is a wad in the cache.
2018-05-05T07:24:03Z beach: I guess it can work.
2018-05-05T07:24:08Z phoe: Oh, right.
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2018-05-05T07:25:39Z beach: The reason I am asking all this is that such a wad reader could be useful in situations other than Second Climacs, and if so, it ought to be in a separate system.
2018-05-05T07:31:04Z beach: Anyway, time to go do something else.
2018-05-05T07:31:33Z beach: I'll read any remarks when I get back.
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2018-05-05T07:37:14Z flip214: beach: for me "wad" is a datafile for Doom ;)
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2018-05-05T07:45:36Z beach: I see.  Well, PARSE-RESULT turned out to be too long, so I had to choose something shorter.
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2018-05-05T10:51:47Z jmercouris: anyone know where Shinmera has been? He's active on github but not on IRC
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2018-05-05T10:56:26Z scymtym: beach: i will have to think about this more, but i have an initial impression. i mentioned before that i would like to turn the eclector-concrete-syntax-tree code into two parts: 1) a protocol for constructing parse results 2) a client of that protocol that constructs CSTs. my impression is that such a protocol (modulo omissions that become apparent when it is used) would be sufficient for the three clients i am aware of: 1) the CST
2018-05-05T10:56:26Z scymtym: client 2) the second climacs client 3) my toy-lisp client
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2018-05-05T10:59:46Z pjb: jmercouris: you mean, Shinmera has been programming, instead of chatting?  Anathema!
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2018-05-05T11:18:27Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: he is on irc, ust gave up on #lisp (at least temporarily)
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2018-05-05T11:31:03Z edgar-rft always thought that chatting is like literate programming
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2018-05-05T12:25:10Z beach: scymtym: OK, sounds good.  Let's discuss this at some point.
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2018-05-05T15:10:38Z Ukari: is there any consensus or principle about function api design? There are two ways and which is better ? multiple returned values, or (list (cons :key1 xx) (cons :key2 xx) (cons: key3 xx))
2018-05-05T15:11:09Z White_Flame: multiple values are very common
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2018-05-05T15:11:24Z White_Flame: now, if those keys are optional, then you  might want to return that and descructure
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2018-05-05T15:19:02Z pfdietz: I suggest a preference for :key arguments.
2018-05-05T15:20:49Z phoe: Ukari: it depends™
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2018-05-05T15:21:10Z phoe: what is your function going to return?
2018-05-05T15:21:29Z phoe: I mean, what is its purpose?
2018-05-05T15:22:23Z Ukari: I am used to use closure as a simple object system
2018-05-05T15:22:37Z jackdaniel: if function returns multiple values use multiple values, that way you don't cons unnecessarily
2018-05-05T15:22:48Z Ukari: like this https://github.com/ukari/lmdb/blob/master/database.lisp
2018-05-05T15:22:50Z jackdaniel: (my opinion™)
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2018-05-05T15:23:46Z Bike: i wonder if implementations cons in (multiple-value-call (lambda (&key ...) ...) ...)
2018-05-05T15:23:47Z jackdaniel: you don't need the lambda there
2018-05-05T15:24:15Z jackdaniel: because you return the result of calling it (when you cal lthe function)
2018-05-05T15:24:19Z jackdaniel: just saying
2018-05-05T15:24:24Z Bike: what?
2018-05-05T15:24:24Z jackdaniel: also progn is implicit in defun
2018-05-05T15:24:31Z Bike: oh not me
2018-05-05T15:24:46Z jackdaniel: Ukari: ↑ (not Bike :)
2018-05-05T15:25:21Z Ukari: what is calling it? the lambda it returned is what need to call
2018-05-05T15:25:28Z Bike: it's called immediately
2018-05-05T15:25:30Z Bike: so it's pointless
2018-05-05T15:25:40Z jackdaniel: (defun hash () ((lambda () 3))) is the same as (defun hash () 3)
2018-05-05T15:25:41Z Xof: speaking of consing
2018-05-05T15:25:43Z Bike: (defun hash () (let ((storage)) ...)) would work the same
2018-05-05T15:25:56Z jackdaniel: compiler may even strip the lambda
2018-05-05T15:25:58Z Bike: also, if you want an object i recommend actually construting an object
2018-05-05T15:26:07Z Bike: no need to be coy
2018-05-05T15:26:16Z jackdaniel: yup
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2018-05-05T15:26:34Z jackdaniel: and an opinionated advice: use #'(lambda …) to return lambda
2018-05-05T15:26:43Z Ukari: you are right
2018-05-05T15:26:47Z jackdaniel: though it is semantically the same (because lambda is a macro)
2018-05-05T15:26:53Z Bike: this isn't even more efficient, you cons up three closures, whereas you only need zero closures
2018-05-05T15:27:05Z Ukari: I thought you were talking about lambdas in return
2018-05-05T15:27:55Z jackdaniel: well, in your situation (if you really need these lambdas inside), just do (defun hash () (let (storage) (values #'(…) #'(…) #'(…))))
2018-05-05T15:28:23Z Xof: I am having difficulty building an implementation of case using a jump table without consing at runtime (and, worse, doing O(n) initialization at runtime).  I wonder if I'm missing something or if that is indeed the best I can do
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2018-05-05T15:29:02Z Bike: what do you have to cons at runtime?
2018-05-05T15:29:05Z Ukari: in values #'(...)... way, if i want to call :set or :get, the code need to provide a exact position
2018-05-05T15:29:07Z Xof: Bike: closures
2018-05-05T15:29:14Z Bike: for what?
2018-05-05T15:29:30Z Xof: (let ((x 1)) (case y (:foo (1+ x)) (:bar (+ x 2))))
2018-05-05T15:29:59Z jackdaniel: Ukari: whenever you remember that first is init, second is set and third is get, or that you remember that there is assoc :init, assoc :set and assoc :get still makes you remember *things* as a programmer
2018-05-05T15:30:03Z Xof: if I rewrite that to (funcall (aref table (lookup y))) ; approximately
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2018-05-05T15:30:21Z Xof: then my table functions are in general closures
2018-05-05T15:30:25Z Bike: oh i thought you meant an actual jump table
2018-05-05T15:30:34Z Xof: (defun foo (x) (case y (:foo (1+ x)) (:bar (+ x 2))))
2018-05-05T15:31:03Z Xof: yeah, fair enough
2018-05-05T15:31:05Z Bike: which obviously you can't do without special support
2018-05-05T15:31:09Z Ukari: jackdaniel, but if i need to add another :setFoo, i must add it to the last position or it will mess up the code before
2018-05-05T15:31:14Z Xof: ok, that's the "obviously" I was looking for, thanks
2018-05-05T15:31:50Z jackdaniel: Ukari: for me thsi programming style is unreadable anyway, when I want functions I define them with names and provide argument to them
2018-05-05T15:31:58Z Bike: i mean, an "actual" jump table is like having a GO special operator that evaluates its argument
2018-05-05T15:32:03Z Bike: but that doesn't exist in lisp
2018-05-05T15:32:24Z Xof: the good news is that means I can forget about my case-using-perfect-hashes, at least for now, and move on to find-restart-using-perfect-hashes
2018-05-05T15:32:32Z Xof: since restart-bind does O(n) initialization anyway
2018-05-05T15:32:47Z Bike: well you could still get implementation support and do it
2018-05-05T15:32:59Z Bike: i think phkuong played with computed goto in sbcl
2018-05-05T15:33:00Z jackdaniel: Ukari: eventually (if I really must) I can always define dynamic variable and create dynamic context for these functiosn with let, that way I have only one thing to carry in the application instead of n functions
2018-05-05T15:33:22Z Xof: it certainly sounds like the kind of thing he would have played with
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2018-05-05T15:33:48Z jackdaniel: Ukari: I admit that these advices are very opinionated, but you have asked about opinions ;)
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2018-05-05T15:34:54Z Ukari: show me the example about `define dynamic variable and create dynamic context for these functiosn with let`, it sounds interesting
2018-05-05T15:35:54Z phoe: (let ((*some-sorta-thing* 42)) (foo))
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2018-05-05T15:36:07Z phoe: where (defun foo () (frobnicate *some-sorta-thing*))
2018-05-05T15:37:09Z jackdaniel: (defvar *foo*) (defun init () (setf *foo* (make-hash-table))) (defun ukari-get () (gethash …)) (ukari-set () (setf (gethash …)))
2018-05-05T15:37:30Z jackdaniel: now (let ((*foo* nil)) (init) (ukari-set …) (ukari-get …))
2018-05-05T15:37:53Z jackdaniel: in body of this let form *foo* is bound to nil, outside this let form *foo* is not bound at all
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2018-05-05T15:42:25Z Ukari: it seems not work well if I need two or more instance
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2018-05-05T15:43:33Z jackdaniel: we could go on with improving your hack, but readable solution is to have argument to your set/get functions
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2018-05-05T15:43:54Z jackdaniel: and as many variables as many instances you need (and work from there)
2018-05-05T15:44:05Z pjb: Ukari: I would distinguish inner-loop functions from public API functions. The later, notably if they're intended to be invoked from the REPL, as commands, can have all kinds of sophisticated argument parsing, including &key and others (eg. catching additionnal arguments or list of arguments after the last &key, which is not parsed by default).  But for internal functions, it may be better to use more plain lambda-lists, with only
2018-05-05T15:44:05Z pjb: mandatory arguments.  Avoiding notably &rest.
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2018-05-05T15:44:25Z jackdaniel: having dynamic context, or even worse – floating anonymous functions, makes your program hard to analyze
2018-05-05T15:44:40Z pjb: Ukari: and for results, multiple-values are probably the fastest way to return multiple values, even if you put a lot of NILs there for optional results.
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2018-05-05T15:49:05Z Ukari: pjb, thank you for advice
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2018-05-05T16:47:56Z Ukari: (iterate (for i in '(1 2 3 4)) (print i)), why this code tells 'The variable I is unbound'
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2018-05-05T16:53:03Z phoe: Ukari: (ql:quickload :iterate) (use-package :iterate)
2018-05-05T16:53:12Z phoe: ITERATE is not a part of standard Common Lisp.
2018-05-05T16:54:02Z Ukari: oh, : p
2018-05-05T16:55:09Z Josh_2: Don't iterate, loop.
2018-05-05T16:55:18Z phoe: Don't loop, do.
2018-05-05T16:55:24Z Josh_2: Yeh :D
2018-05-05T16:55:41Z phoe: Don't do, TAGBODY+GO. Don't TAGBODY+GO, recur. Don't recur, iterate.
2018-05-05T16:56:05Z Josh_2: Don't do, do*
2018-05-05T16:58:04Z phoe: (defmacro don (thing &rest forms) (declare (ignore thing)) `(do ,@forms))
2018-05-05T16:58:11Z phoe: (don't ((x 0 (1+ x))) ((> x 10)) (print x))
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2018-05-05T17:08:58Z foojin: jackdaniel: In your answer to Ukari, what did you mean by "floating anonymous functions"?
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2018-05-05T17:09:23Z phoe: a (lambda (...) ...) somewhere in code
2018-05-05T17:09:58Z phoe: nothing worse in a stacktrace than a nameless lambda
2018-05-05T17:10:29Z jackdaniel: foojin: he had "function factory", so I assume he were going to use them
2018-05-05T17:11:01Z jackdaniel: exactly 3x number of instances of his "hash"
2018-05-05T17:11:02Z Ukari: phoe, why, for efficiency or debug info?
2018-05-05T17:11:10Z phoe: Ukari: debuggability
2018-05-05T17:11:14Z jackdaniel: each of them was not named, and I assume he would want to store them *somewhere*
2018-05-05T17:11:22Z phoe: efficiency-wise there should be no difference
2018-05-05T17:11:29Z jackdaniel: so there is a lot of variables storing functions without a name
2018-05-05T17:11:45Z jackdaniel: generally I meant this
2018-05-05T17:12:43Z Ukari: nameless lambda don't make global name confit but defun does, or it needs package name provided
2018-05-05T17:12:45Z foojin: jackdaniel: Ah, so it's just about passing them around so that it becomes difficult to know where did they come from.
2018-05-05T17:13:45Z phoe: Ukari: do you really need to generate code for each single hash element that you have?
2018-05-05T17:13:56Z jackdaniel: Ukari: I suspect you are a beginning CL programmer. I may be wrong, but if it is a case, you may learn a lot by following simple advices
2018-05-05T17:14:13Z phoe: and each single hash value is going to have a completely separate function that is going to be called?
2018-05-05T17:15:08Z jackdaniel: it is easier to maintain N variables with your "instances" and use directly gethash/setf gethash, then to maintain 3xN functions doing that for you
2018-05-05T17:15:30Z jackdaniel: if you have more complicated behavior, you maintain objects in variables and you specilize generic functions on their classes
2018-05-05T17:15:45Z Ukari: maybe i could store nameless lambda in a static way and pass varibale into it, like (let ((set (lambda (store) (lambda () ...)))) (defun hash () (list (cons :set (funcall set store)))))
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2018-05-05T17:15:48Z jackdaniel: etc, that is something what people do, because it works and it provides easy structure of your program to follow
2018-05-05T17:16:24Z jackdaniel: but I think you are not interested in following this "nonsense", so I'm getting back to my Saturday ;-) see you \o
2018-05-05T17:17:43Z phoe: Ukari: grab a CLOS tutorial, read it and use it. You're going in a direction that is rarely used (because better mechanisms exist) and insanely hard to debug.
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2018-05-05T17:19:48Z phoe: Your "closures as a simple object system" slowly stops being simple.
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2018-05-05T17:27:57Z Ukari: i find a not-independent generator in this code, (iterate (for el in '(1 2 3 4)) (generate i from 1) (print (next i))). is there any standrad about independent generator?
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2018-05-05T17:30:12Z Ukari: sth might works like (iterate (for i in generator) (print i))
2018-05-05T17:30:21Z phoe: Ukari: I think the only piece of manual for ITERATE is https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/index.html
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2018-05-05T17:41:15Z Fare: Ukari: if you're heavy into functional style and going below the object system, Scheme might be more for you than CL.
2018-05-05T17:42:54Z phoe: ^
2018-05-05T17:45:56Z python476: hey there
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2018-05-05T17:46:04Z python476: any of you ever seen a PCB lisp DSL ?
2018-05-05T17:46:13Z python476: even primitive
2018-05-05T17:46:26Z python476: PCB as in electronics layout
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2018-05-05T17:52:17Z fourier: not exacly lisp question but rather slime/sly, but how to get the last value returned in repl? like (sly-inspect "*") always inspects nil
2018-05-05T17:56:00Z p_l: python476: I have only seen complete GUI design programs
2018-05-05T17:58:55Z Fare: fourier: you need * in the thread of the REPL ?
2018-05-05T18:00:17Z fourier: Fare: yes apparently
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2018-05-05T18:01:38Z fourier: what I want is to call sly's graphical inspector on *. but it always inspects nil :(
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2018-05-05T18:02:46Z rme: (defparameter *foo* *), then inspect *foo*
2018-05-05T18:03:54Z fourier: yes this works, but kinda ugly
2018-05-05T18:04:15Z rme: (swank:inspect-in-emacs *)
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2018-05-05T18:05:01Z rme: there's always a way
2018-05-05T18:05:06Z python476: p_l: danke
2018-05-05T18:05:22Z python476: I think it's time for a lisp pcb compiler
2018-05-05T18:05:28Z python476: after all SICP has a circuit DSL
2018-05-05T18:06:00Z python476: we just need a SICP-circuit-to-plane dsl, wish dsssl support for fanciness
2018-05-05T18:06:01Z python476: :cough:
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2018-05-05T18:06:44Z Fare: rme: what's the funding situation of CCL?
2018-05-05T18:06:48Z p_l: python476: pretty sure Cadence SKILL can be used like DSL
2018-05-05T18:10:00Z rme: Fare: The funding situation is not good. I have done a little paying work for about 1.5 clients.
2018-05-05T18:11:10Z rme: I can self-fund some work on it, but not forever.
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2018-05-05T18:14:36Z Fare: :-/
2018-05-05T18:15:34Z phoe: rme: do you have any kind of patreonfundme website set up?
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2018-05-05T18:15:49Z Josh_2: ^^
2018-05-05T18:16:39Z Ukari: http://rextester.com/LNBE19355
2018-05-05T18:17:09Z Ukari: how to parse a syntax keyword in defmacro?
2018-05-05T18:17:28Z edgar-rft: python476, is this what you're looking for? <https://www.cliki.net/ICanCAD>
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2018-05-05T18:19:02Z Ukari: oh, i know
2018-05-05T18:19:08Z rme: phoe: No, I haven't set up anything like that.
2018-05-05T18:19:50Z phoe: rme: please do! I believe I'm not the only person who'd want to chip in.
2018-05-05T18:21:22Z rme: Thank you, phoe.  I know there are generous people out there like you, but I have some doubts about whether crowdfunding is suitable for sustaining funding for a software system like CCL.
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2018-05-05T18:24:11Z Fare: I have fond memories of working with CCL. A few issues, too, but overall minor. Not sure how things changed since Gary retired (how is he?)
2018-05-05T18:24:56Z phoe: rme: I honestly don't think it's going to sustain CCL but I nonetheless want to throw my two cents at it the moment I have a chance.
2018-05-05T18:25:07Z phoe: Other than hacking at it, that is.
2018-05-05T18:25:24Z rme: Fare: Gary sent me email the day before the ELS started to wish me luck on me talk.
2018-05-05T18:25:59Z fourier: that was extremely energetic and inspiring talk though
2018-05-05T18:26:04Z rme: He's mentioned to me before that he thinks about getting back on the net, but I don't know much more than that.
2018-05-05T18:26:18Z phoe: fourier: +1
2018-05-05T18:26:19Z rme: fourier: Thanks.  I believe every word I said.
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2018-05-05T18:27:10Z Fare: (I still believe ITA did the wrong call on dividing its attention between SBCL and CCL, but that is one of the least mistakes made there)
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2018-05-05T18:28:08Z Fare: I miss working in Lisp --- and most importantly, with Lispers.
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2018-05-05T18:30:49Z Fare: Happily, I am working with a Lisper now, though not in Lisp.
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2018-05-05T18:31:59Z mfiano: Fare: What are you working in if not Gerbil?
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2018-05-05T18:42:04Z Fare: mfiano: at Legicash, we use OCaml.
2018-05-05T18:42:31Z Fare: other project (still ongoing, but I am less involved) is still in Gerbil Scheme.
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2018-05-05T18:52:26Z fourier: what is your opinion on ocaml ?
2018-05-05T18:52:51Z Fare: Well, I was raised on OCaml back at $almamater
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2018-05-05T18:54:24Z Fare: coming back to it, I find I enjoy having decent type inference to help me. The syntax is annoying. The build system story is in disarray though with a good solution in sight (jbuilder / dune); the metaprogramming story is well, quite unsatisfying though not quite as bad as Java.
2018-05-05T18:55:06Z jmercouris: Fare: I think you managed to find one of the only OCaml jobs in existence
2018-05-05T18:55:26Z Fare: I made it.
2018-05-05T18:55:49Z Fare: I'm the technical co-founder.
2018-05-05T18:55:52Z jmercouris: Ah, then you could have just as easily made it Lisp
2018-05-05T18:55:55Z jmercouris: what drove your decision?
2018-05-05T18:56:00Z Fare: No, we really needed types.
2018-05-05T18:56:13Z jmercouris: Do you care to elaborate?
2018-05-05T18:56:17Z Fare: working with cryptocurrencies, with our claim being that we use formal methods.
2018-05-05T18:56:22Z jmercouris: Ah, well
2018-05-05T18:56:30Z Fare: There is a Scheme backend to Coq, though.
2018-05-05T18:56:45Z Fare: So that's the fallback plan to me if OCaml gets too messy / stunted.
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2018-05-05T18:57:34Z Fare: Types do help a lot with prototyping. And library support for pure functional programming.
2018-05-05T18:57:45Z jmercouris: Do they? I'm not so sure
2018-05-05T18:57:51Z rme: I've always sort of been interested in ML and OCaml, but I've never used either for anything real.
2018-05-05T18:58:02Z jmercouris: you are a much more experienced developer than me though, so maybe with time I'll achieve some level of enlightenment in this regard
2018-05-05T18:59:05Z fourier: why ocaml and not haskell ?
2018-05-05T18:59:23Z Fare: I do find that OCaml is a bit awkward in that anything serious requires using modules which require one more level of complexity compared to other things. I miss the seamless ad hoc polymorphism of Scala or Haskell.
2018-05-05T18:59:36Z Fare: The object system of OCaml is not very well integrated.
2018-05-05T19:00:14Z Fare: fourier, because we wanted to work with Tezos (shelved for now) which uses OCaml, and we still want to use with Coq, which has much better OCaml than Haskell support.
2018-05-05T19:00:22Z fourier: ah I see
2018-05-05T19:00:38Z jmercouris: Fare: so, what does yoru company do exactly?
2018-05-05T19:00:42Z jmercouris: are you at liberty to say?
2018-05-05T19:00:50Z jmercouris: s/yoru/your
2018-05-05T19:01:41Z Fare: Also, unless I had an expert Haskell partner, I wouldn't feel comfortable using Haskell. OCaml lets you easily escape to plain old imperative style, so I know I can fallback to the bad old ways if needed.
2018-05-05T19:01:49Z Fare: https://legi.cash/
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2018-05-05T19:02:25Z jmercouris: imperative is the bad old ways? what are you some prolog master :D?
2018-05-05T19:04:27Z Fare: prolog is way too imperative for me. Did you mean Mercury?
2018-05-05T19:04:41Z Fare: (Does Mercury still exist?)
2018-05-05T19:06:06Z jmercouris: prolog is way too imperative, that's a statement I never thought I would hear :D
2018-05-05T19:06:36Z jmercouris: interesting business you have there
2018-05-05T19:06:47Z jmercouris: I take it you are funded because you have some advisors
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2018-05-05T19:07:54Z Fare: jmercouris, the two are not synonymous.
2018-05-05T19:08:02Z Fare: Although they are correlated.
2018-05-05T19:09:24Z p_l: Fare: Mercury still exists
2018-05-05T19:09:35Z Fare: yup, mercurylang.org
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2018-05-05T19:10:31Z jmercouris: sure, anyone that's serious about a business is usually using an advisor as an avenue to investment
2018-05-05T19:10:42Z jmercouris: at least serious about a "startup", whatever that means
2018-05-05T19:11:32Z jmercouris: Fare: how long do you anticipate until your product is operational?
2018-05-05T19:11:57Z Fare: about a year.
2018-05-05T19:12:04Z Fare: if fully funded
2018-05-05T19:12:11Z Fare: that would be beta net.
2018-05-05T19:12:17Z jmercouris: So what's the majority of that time?
2018-05-05T19:12:30Z jmercouris: what do you need the funding for?
2018-05-05T19:12:43Z Fare: building the software and proof infrastructure.
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2018-05-05T19:13:21Z jmercouris: how many developers do you want to hire?
2018-05-05T19:13:40Z jmercouris: if you don't want to talk about it, feel free to stop me at any time
2018-05-05T19:13:55Z jmercouris: or if anyone is annoyed by this being off-topic as well...
2018-05-05T19:13:55Z jackdaniel: --> #lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:14:09Z jmercouris: I first looked for Fare's username in lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:14:30Z jackdaniel: ask him to join, maybe he is interested in non-lisp discussion ;-)
2018-05-05T19:16:52Z Fare joins #lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:17:09Z loginoob: I am a beginner, have only read 6 chapters of CL:a gentle introduction. Should i also learn to write tests to my programs or that should be learned later?
2018-05-05T19:17:20Z Fare: ocaml is just lisp with a bad syntax and a semi-usable type system.
2018-05-05T19:17:35Z jmercouris: loginoob: Tests aren't super critical, plus there is no "de-facto" testing framework in CL
2018-05-05T19:17:38Z Fare: actually, the original CAML was written in Lisp. LeLisp.
2018-05-05T19:18:16Z jmercouris: loginoob: something cool to do might be to write your own testing suite
2018-05-05T19:18:21Z jackdaniel: loginoob: desiging tests for your application is essential, but not so important for learning excercises
2018-05-05T19:18:23Z jmercouris: loginoob: there's a chapter about it in practical common lisp
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2018-05-05T19:18:53Z jmercouris: loginoob: You can find it here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html
2018-05-05T19:19:04Z jmercouris: it could be a cool way to learn, and write some very basic tests
2018-05-05T19:19:09Z jackdaniel: loginoob: tool you use to write tests is a secondary choice, we have multitude of testing frameworks but a little number of tests written
2018-05-05T19:19:11Z Fare: even cooler than designing your own test suite, is not doing it and helping cleanup the test library situation.
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2018-05-05T19:19:35Z jmercouris: well, a standard will not emerge unless a leader emerges
2018-05-05T19:19:54Z phoe: loginoob: I suggest that you try reading the code for 1AM and trying to use it for your first tests.
2018-05-05T19:19:56Z jackdaniel: creating new test framework won't help picking the leader ,) I fully agree with Fare
2018-05-05T19:20:12Z phoe: it's a test framework that fits on a single page of paper and is therefore dead simple to understand.
2018-05-05T19:20:24Z phoe: though, honestly, you don't need no test framework to write tests in Lisp
2018-05-05T19:20:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: it's not about picking the leader, it's about learning CL...
2018-05-05T19:20:54Z phoe: (defun test-simple-math () (assert (= 4 (+ 2 2))) (assert (= 9 (* 3 3))) ...)
2018-05-05T19:20:59Z jackdaniel: then why did you mention that? :)
2018-05-05T19:21:09Z jmercouris: I thought it would combine both of the user's goals
2018-05-05T19:21:16Z jmercouris: 1. learning how to write tests, 2. learning common lisp
2018-05-05T19:21:39Z phoe: because 1AM is a fun wrapper around DEFUN that also takes case of collecting all tests for the purpose of running them together.
2018-05-05T19:21:52Z jackdaniel: I fail to comprehend this logic, but whatever ;] /me departs
2018-05-05T19:22:01Z phoe: so I can call (RUN) and boom, they all get run.
2018-05-05T19:22:08Z jmercouris: just like that :)
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2018-05-05T19:22:10Z phoe: just a matter of convenience and my silly customs.
2018-05-05T19:24:08Z loginoob: I guess i should focus on learning CL and worry about tests after i become intermediate
2018-05-05T19:24:35Z loginoob: otherwise i would be lost
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2018-05-05T19:24:54Z MichaelRaskin: A long file with assert's and comments can go a long way
2018-05-05T19:24:58Z jmercouris: loginoob: that's a good idea
2018-05-05T19:25:31Z loginoob: will try to do some simple asserts
2018-05-05T19:25:35Z loginoob: thank you
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2018-05-05T19:26:35Z phoe: loginoob: simple asserts should do for now
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2018-05-05T19:27:22Z loginoob: will do surely
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2018-05-05T19:44:50Z fourier: first learn the language, tests you will need then you are about to write some library/app in it
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2018-05-05T20:18:50Z foojin: How can variable capture occur in the following example macro from "On Lisp": (defmacro cap2 (var) ‘(let ((x ...) (,var ...)) ...)) ?
2018-05-05T20:18:54Z foojin: Is it incorrect just because passing x to it would be a LET error?
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2018-05-05T20:19:18Z Bike: what's in the dots
2018-05-05T20:20:38Z foojin: It's not specified. I suppose that whatever's in there, it contains instances of ",var".
2018-05-05T20:21:34Z phoe: foojin: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x)) is an error
2018-05-05T20:21:43Z phoe: because you have multiple LET bindings for the same variable
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2018-05-05T20:25:20Z foojin: phoe: Wouldn't your example expand to nested LETs? BTW that's what I meant when I wrote about a "LET error".
2018-05-05T20:26:12Z foojin: phoe: Ah, I see. Even if they're nested, the inner one is incorrect.
2018-05-05T20:26:29Z phoe: foojin: exactly.
2018-05-05T20:26:40Z phoe: Nested LETs, second of which is malformed.
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2018-05-05T20:29:29Z phoe goes to get his nightly garbage collection
2018-05-05T20:30:03Z foojin: So, if one were to suppose that only correct (non-malformed) expansions will occur, there's no way for x to be captured, is it?
2018-05-05T20:30:08Z clintm: phoe: (sb-ext:gc :full t)?
2018-05-05T20:30:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: More like indexing.
2018-05-05T20:30:52Z p_l: shrdlu68: well, it's GC, compression, reindexing
2018-05-05T20:31:12Z edgar-rft: clintm, is this the same as (sb-ext:gv :empty nil) ?
2018-05-05T20:31:33Z edgar-rft: *(sb-ext:gc :empty nil)
2018-05-05T20:32:03Z edgar-rft: damn, jokes with typos suck :-(
2018-05-05T20:32:13Z clintm: edgar-rft: I'm not sure, but I know where to find out.
2018-05-05T20:32:13Z clintm: hehe
2018-05-05T20:32:24Z shrdlu68: p_l: I've been thinking about the language-agnostic-syscalls thing, reading up on kernel hacking, procf, etc.
2018-05-05T20:32:35Z shrdlu68: Hit a snag when I considered threading.
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2018-05-05T20:35:33Z phoe: foojin: also depends
2018-05-05T20:35:39Z phoe: you might hit a reverse capture
2018-05-05T20:36:11Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 y (+ x 100))) may return something else than 142
2018-05-05T20:36:39Z phoe: because this might expand to (let ((x 42)) (let ((x 8080) (y 3)) (+ x 100)))
2018-05-05T20:36:46Z phoe: and therefore ;=> 8180
2018-05-05T20:36:55Z shrdlu68: How do I know which packages are being :used in current package?
2018-05-05T20:37:10Z phoe: shrdlu68: programmatically or interactively?
2018-05-05T20:37:16Z shrdlu68: Either.
2018-05-05T20:37:27Z phoe: shrdlu68: inspect the package object, it should have a use list
2018-05-05T20:37:38Z phoe: oh wait
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2018-05-05T20:37:40Z phoe: clhs package-use-list
2018-05-05T20:37:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pkg_us.htm
2018-05-05T20:38:30Z shrdlu68: Ah, so :cl-user :uses :sb-ext, which is why I've always been able to call gc without the sb-ext: prefix.
2018-05-05T20:38:49Z phoe: shrdlu68: yes, the use list for CL-USER is implementation-defined.
2018-05-05T20:39:05Z phoe: on CCL, it also uses the :CCL package methinks, and so on.
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2018-05-05T20:44:23Z pjb: foojin: more precisely, it's because in (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x))  we want the x in (cap2 x) to refer to the x bound by let. but the macro cap2 could expand to (let ((x 33 #|for example|#)) '(list x)) #| --> (list 33) |#  where is bound in the inner let.  This is not inherently wrong.  It's just a matter of specifications of the cap2 macro, and of general expectations ("style") in CL.
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2018-05-05T20:45:03Z foojin: phoe: The question was somewhat ambiguous, with dots instead of actual code, so I assumed there were no comma substitutions there. Otherwise that situation would surely be possible.
2018-05-05T20:45:44Z pjb: foojin: If you are defining a specific DSL, perhaps it's meaningful for the x in (cap2 x) to be refering something else than outside bindings.  But if not in this case, it's generally expected that the in a form such as (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x)) the x in (cap2 x) be a lexical reference to the lexical binding.
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2018-05-05T20:47:13Z pjb: It's often better to let the user specify the name of the inner variables, when he can also provide bodies or expressions refering them: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 (x) x)) would then read similarly to (let ((x 42)) (let ((x 33)) x)) and there would be no contraried expectation: it would be clear, lexically, that cap2 establishes a new binding for x.
2018-05-05T20:47:42Z pjb: And if the user wants to use the outer x, this allows him to write (let ((x 42)) (cap2 (y) (+ x y))).
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2018-05-05T20:48:25Z puchacz: hi, how to read file to array of octets pls?
2018-05-05T20:49:14Z phoe: puchacz: alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector
2018-05-05T20:49:23Z pjb: shrdlu68: I have this in my common.lisp rc file: (mapc (lambda (package) (unuse-package package "COMMON-LISP-USER")) (delete (find-package "COMMON-LISP") (copy-seq (package-use-list "COMMON-LISP-USER"))))
2018-05-05T20:49:25Z puchacz: phoe:  thanks
2018-05-05T20:49:41Z pjb: shrdlu68: so my CL-USER is the same in all implementations, and I can write conforming code even in CL-USER.
2018-05-05T20:49:49Z shrdlu68: puchacz: Alexandria has a function for that.
2018-05-05T20:50:18Z foojin: pjb: I totally forgot about the "expectations" thing. It would indeed be quite strange for an inserted binding to get in the way (as shown in your first example).
2018-05-05T20:50:33Z pjb: puchacz: (subseq (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents "/etc/passwd") 0 10)  #| --> #(35 35 10 35 32 85 115 101 114 32) |#
2018-05-05T20:51:03Z shrdlu68: puchacz: alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector
2018-05-05T20:51:35Z phoe: shrdlu68: ha! I was first
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2018-05-05T20:51:42Z puchacz: :)
2018-05-05T20:51:56Z shrdlu68: puchacz: Or just open the file with :elment-type (unsigned-byte 8)
2018-05-05T20:51:57Z pjb: foojin: this is why it's not wrong per-se. It all depends on the specification of the macro. For example, anaphoric macros establish an implicit binding to IT.
2018-05-05T20:52:07Z shrdlu68: phoe: Didn't see that :(
2018-05-05T20:52:11Z phoe: shrdlu68: <3
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2018-05-05T20:52:23Z puchacz: shrdlu68: nah, I prefer to have it wrapped as a function
2018-05-05T20:52:25Z pjb: the type is evaluated, so it must be quoted: :elment-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2018-05-05T20:52:38Z shrdlu68: Yep.
2018-05-05T20:52:48Z pjb: And since unsigned-byte is exported from CL, you cannot fbind it.
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2018-05-05T20:53:01Z phoe: wait, fbind?
2018-05-05T20:53:07Z phoe: you can put it in a flet
2018-05-05T20:53:12Z pjb: define a function or macro with the same name.
2018-05-05T20:53:21Z pjb: Nope, definitely not in flet or labels!
2018-05-05T20:53:33Z pjb: Because CL operators can be open-coded.
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2018-05-05T20:53:44Z phoe: (flet ((unsigned-byte (x) `(unsigned-byte ,x))) (unsigned-byte 8))
2018-05-05T20:53:48Z pjb: flet-ing or labels-ing them would be ineffective.
2018-05-05T20:53:51Z pjb: This is not conforming.
2018-05-05T20:54:06Z phoe: yes it is
2018-05-05T20:54:06Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_ababa.htm
2018-05-05T20:54:15Z phoe: If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not defined as a standardized function, macro, or special operator, it is allowed to lexically bind it as a function (e.g., with flet), to declare the ftype of that binding, and (in implementations which provide the ability to do so) to trace that binding.
2018-05-05T20:54:21Z shrdlu68: pjb: That's cool.
2018-05-05T20:54:37Z phoe: The fact that the above is completely pointless is a different thing
2018-05-05T20:55:12Z pjb: phoe: Oh, right, in the exceptions.
2018-05-05T20:55:19Z pjb: That's funny.
2018-05-05T20:55:23Z phoe: pjb: I know, right?
2018-05-05T20:55:32Z phoe: But this is why we can (let ((function ...)) ...), too.
2018-05-05T20:57:30Z pjb: This is a strong exception for the implementations, because the default rule is that implementations can define functions for those symbols.  But then they cannot use directly those functions in macroexpansions, because that could be wrapped in a flet/labels that would shadow them…
2018-05-05T20:58:22Z phoe: pjb: sure thing that they can define functions on them, BUT
2018-05-05T20:58:31Z phoe: these functions cannot be in form (defun unsigned-byte ...)
2018-05-05T20:58:41Z pjb: why not?
2018-05-05T20:58:53Z phoe: because with the symbol UNSIGNED-BYTE being exported, that would mean that the symbol UNSIGNED-BYTE is now globally fbound.
2018-05-05T20:59:15Z phoe: And it must NOT be globally fbound because there is no standard function CL:UNSIGNED-BYTE in the standard.
2018-05-05T20:59:21Z phoe: clhs unsigned-byte
2018-05-05T20:59:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm
2018-05-05T21:00:17Z pjb: but 11.1.2.1.2  pt. 2 is generally explained saying that implementations may do just that.
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2018-05-05T21:00:34Z varjag: anyone here uses hyperspec-lookup with safari?
2018-05-05T21:00:53Z pjb: Notice that in the exception it's not said "if the exported symbol is fbound or not" but "if the expected symbol is DEFINED by the standard as a function."
2018-05-05T21:01:05Z varjag: browse-url doesn't seem to open file:// urls for me
2018-05-05T21:01:07Z phoe: Hmmm.
2018-05-05T21:01:08Z varjag: http works fine
2018-05-05T21:01:13Z pjb: varjag: I use Safari as navigator when working on MacOS.
2018-05-05T21:01:37Z pjb: file:// works too, such as file:///opt/local/share/doc/lisp/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm
2018-05-05T21:01:51Z varjag: yeah they do work in broswer
2018-05-05T21:01:52Z phoe: pjb: I see.
2018-05-05T21:02:10Z varjag: but emacs' browse-url drops them shomehow
2018-05-05T21:02:13Z pjb: (after: sudo port install lisp-hyperspec)
2018-05-05T21:02:14Z phoe: It's nonetheless weird for me that the standard would permit a thing like #'UNSIGNED-BYTE.
2018-05-05T21:02:19Z phoe: Since that's obviously non-portable code.
2018-05-05T21:02:46Z pjb: phoe:  not really. This allows implementations to use functions to represent things such as types.
2018-05-05T21:03:12Z pjb: Perhaps we should be happy that no implementation use such trick.
2018-05-05T21:03:20Z phoe: pjb: sure, but that's non-portable.
2018-05-05T21:03:36Z varjag: so M-x hyperspec-lookup works for me if i set the root to a web adress, but not with the local hyperspec repo
2018-05-05T21:03:36Z pjb: It's hidden, it's an implementation detaila.
2018-05-05T21:03:49Z phoe: Well. As long as it's inside the implementation, I don't care.
2018-05-05T21:04:11Z phoe: But if it leaks outwards, it's just weird to me.
2018-05-05T21:04:12Z pjb: varjag: works for me. You'll have to debug it.
2018-05-05T21:04:22Z pjb: phoe: Yes.
2018-05-05T21:04:31Z phoe: The standard lists all symbols that are exported from the CL package.
2018-05-05T21:05:02Z phoe: I wonder if it has any constrains about whether some of these symbols must/must not be bound/fbound/macrobound.
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2018-05-05T21:05:25Z phoe: I mean, if the list of all fbound external CL symbols is not permitted to be extended by the implementation above the bare minimum.
2018-05-05T21:07:14Z phoe: That's an interesting thing to check... tomorrow.
2018-05-05T21:07:22Z phoe exhausts his heap, game over.
2018-05-05T21:08:54Z pjb: Good night. (you may have some surprise checking that).
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2018-05-05T21:54:07Z ebrasca: Can I get negative number in 2's complement and in binary?
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2018-05-05T21:56:41Z Ukari: is (defstruct ship ..) must use a 'make-ship' to make a instance? Is there anything like (make-instance 'ship ) also works ?
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2018-05-05T21:58:45Z Josh_2: Hmm I wonder when Fare is gonna come back, there is some questionable English on his site
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2018-05-05T22:03:22Z nirved: ebrasca: use ldb
2018-05-05T22:03:36Z White_Flame: or logand
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2018-05-05T22:05:31Z White_Flame: Ukari: there's an option to defstruct as to what to name the constructor
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2018-05-05T22:05:54Z White_Flame: so you can dispatch through your own tools if you want
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2018-05-05T22:09:42Z pjb: ebrasca: it's not clear what you're asking.
2018-05-05T22:10:14Z pjb: ebrasca: the answer is definitely: YES.  But we don't know what you want.
2018-05-05T22:10:22Z ebrasca: I like to have binary of negative number.
2018-05-05T22:10:33Z ebrasca: For b instruction of power9.
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2018-05-05T22:10:48Z ebrasca: I am porting mezzano to talos II.
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2018-05-05T22:11:00Z pjb: What about: (ldb (byte 32 0) -1) #| --> 4294967295 |#
2018-05-05T22:11:04Z White_Flame: (logand -1 #xffff) => 65535.  not sure what else you want
2018-05-05T22:11:30Z White_Flame: (also not sure which compiles faster, check the disassembly ;) )
2018-05-05T22:11:32Z ebrasca: It is 24 bits relative address
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2018-05-05T22:12:04Z pjb: Notice that since you're asking for number: (ldb (byte 32 0) (round (realpart #c(-3.0 0.0)))) #| --> 4294967293 |#
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2018-05-05T22:33:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
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2018-05-06T02:00:41Z sunshavi: Hi. How should i install commonQt on archlinux?
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2018-05-06T03:40:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-06T04:26:03Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: try installing qt4 and then install commonqt using quicklisp
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2018-05-06T04:26:45Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: Hi. thanks for your answer
2018-05-06T04:26:52Z sunshavi: it have been more than that
2018-05-06T04:27:16Z sunshavi: smoke-gen and smokeqt are required also
2018-05-06T04:27:39Z jackdaniel: ah, so you have succeeded?
2018-05-06T04:27:45Z jackdaniel: grats
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2018-05-06T04:28:35Z sunshavi: when the error happens when doing (ql:quickload :qt), in place on qmake You should do qmake-qt4
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2018-05-06T04:29:08Z sunshavi: also qimageblitz-svn
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2018-05-06T04:29:40Z sunshavi: yes jackdaniel i am doing now my hello world with CommonQt :)
2018-05-06T04:30:07Z jackdaniel: o, thanks for sharing
2018-05-06T04:30:18Z jackdaniel: this is somewhat similar with default python etc
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2018-05-06T04:30:28Z jackdaniel: can't you configure it with (say): https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Qt#Default_Qt_toolkit
2018-05-06T04:30:28Z sunshavi: nice catch about qt4, no info on the CommonQt wiki about it
2018-05-06T04:30:35Z beach: sunshavi: I strongly recommend you use McCLIM instead. :)
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2018-05-06T04:31:51Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: i did not realized about Default_Qt_toolkit
2018-05-06T04:32:33Z sunshavi: beach: McCLIM is available on arch?. Let me check. Which are the differences with sbcl?
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2018-05-06T04:32:53Z jackdaniel: if you are in exploratory mood you may try also McCLIM (which doesn't rely on FFI). It is far less polished than Qt, but is something fun to learn
2018-05-06T04:33:01Z jackdaniel: you can download McClIM directly from Qt
2018-05-06T04:33:10Z jackdaniel: s/from Qt/from Quicklisp/
2018-05-06T04:33:28Z jackdaniel: the bright side is that McCLIM is surely capable of having hello world
2018-05-06T04:33:31Z beach: sunshavi: I don't see how availability of McCLIM would depend on the OS.
2018-05-06T04:34:22Z sunshavi: well. This is my first day on common-lisp. I am here trying to do a replacement for dbdesigner wich is not available for armv7 arch
2018-05-06T04:34:49Z jackdaniel: here are my two screencasts of McCLIM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfBmRsPRdGg ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOrllTA-yc
2018-05-06T04:34:57Z jackdaniel: and generally: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo0SIc8er5gBWZsq64n0dxeIa63jU6XTX
2018-05-06T04:35:05Z jackdaniel: that said I've got to go (breakfast :-) later
2018-05-06T04:35:27Z sunshavi: beach: bear with me i'm a newbie on CL
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2018-05-06T04:35:49Z beach: sunshavi: OK, understood.
2018-05-06T04:36:35Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: enjoy the breakfast. here GMT-005
2018-05-06T04:36:41Z sunshavi: almost midnight
2018-05-06T04:36:59Z sunshavi: i am going to watch some videos on webmacs
2018-05-06T04:37:39Z beach: sunshavi: If you go McCLIM, you will have way fewer problems with the Qt maintainers making incompatible changes, and you will be programming in Common Lisp as opposed to some strange combination of Common Lisp and some lesser programming language.
2018-05-06T04:38:13Z sunshavi: beach: nice. That sounds promissing
2018-05-06T04:39:13Z sunshavi: i have done some gtk, some wxwidgets, vlc moved from wxwidgets to Qt. Then I though Qt is the way to go. But I could be wrong
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2018-05-06T04:39:47Z beach: sunshavi: On the other hand, as jackdaniel pointed out, McCLIM is less polished than Qt.  But then, you will have jackdaniel to help you with McCLIM and to help fix possible problems in McCLIM.
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2018-05-06T04:40:35Z hjek: sunshavi: depends what you're doing, I guess. CLIM is pretty cool in that it's extremely lispy, but it does require an X server so for cross-building it's not super nice. Then something like LTK is really neat. Or perhaps Qt.
2018-05-06T04:40:40Z beach: sunshavi: I am very biased.  I am totally in favor of programming in Common Lisp as opposed to other languages.
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2018-05-06T04:41:34Z sunshavi: well. I just have learn some basic emacs-lisp. On my more than 10 years tour using emacs. But never tried cL
2018-05-06T04:42:00Z beach: sunshavi: Looks like you are in for some journey.
2018-05-06T04:42:09Z beach: sunshavi: We'll be there for you if you want.
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2018-05-06T04:42:54Z sunshavi: hjek: hi
2018-05-06T04:43:03Z beach: sunshavi: Lucky for you, as I understand it, #lisp is one of the friendliest channels around.
2018-05-06T04:43:27Z hjek: hi
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2018-05-06T04:43:53Z sunshavi: beach: I am hanging around on #linux-sunxi, #armbian, #maemo-leste
2018-05-06T04:44:09Z beach: Good for you.
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2018-05-06T04:45:46Z sunshavi: but today I needed dbdesigner on my arm-workstation. when not available i turned on my x220. But I would like to start creating something like dbdesigner on lisp.
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2018-05-06T04:49:02Z sunshavi: hjek: LTK is related to FLTK?
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2018-05-06T04:49:16Z hjek: no, tcl/tk
2018-05-06T04:49:59Z hjek: so, probably alright for something about databases. (and probably not alright if it's something that needs to look native, or graphics heavy)
2018-05-06T04:51:01Z sunshavi: hjek: creating tables and relations and drag and drop does not seem graphics heavy
2018-05-06T04:51:40Z hjek: exactly
2018-05-06T04:51:44Z sunshavi: dbdesigner was done 15 years ago on kylix (delphi 4 linux)
2018-05-06T04:51:59Z sunshavi: and it works until today
2018-05-06T04:52:48Z sunshavi: McCLIM frames looks like emacs wit the lucid toolkit
2018-05-06T04:58:43Z sunshavi: McCLIM is based or modelled on gtk (top_level_window)?
2018-05-06T05:01:11Z hjek: sunshavi: no gtk in mcclim. i think it's pure X. but also there is supposedly a Cocoa back end for OS X
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2018-05-06T05:03:36Z sunshavi: nice
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2018-05-06T05:12:00Z sunshavi: McCLIM should work on wayland?
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2018-05-06T05:13:02Z jackdaniel: wayland has X-compatibility layer
2018-05-06T05:13:05Z jackdaniel: and it worked fine for me
2018-05-06T05:13:19Z jackdaniel: but native wayland wire protocol is not supported
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2018-05-06T05:27:07Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: nice
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2018-05-06T05:30:09Z sunshavi: i have done a couple of tutorials on CommonQt. a simple frame with just a title, and a frame with three widgets label, text, button
2018-05-06T05:32:01Z LdBeth: What dose the postscript backend do for CLIM?
2018-05-06T05:33:58Z jackdaniel: LdBeth: it produces postscript documents
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2018-05-06T05:36:46Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: just ps files or also pdf's?
2018-05-06T05:37:52Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: there is another backend called pdf
2018-05-06T05:38:01Z jackdaniel: it is fairly new, so I can't guarantee it works as expected
2018-05-06T05:38:03Z sunshavi: ok
2018-05-06T05:38:19Z jackdaniel: but you may load clim-examples, go to drawing examples and you'll have a button to generate from drawings ps / pdf
2018-05-06T05:38:27Z jackdaniel: and see what works and what doesn't
2018-05-06T05:39:33Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: I am installing McCLIM now it is on package drei-user now
2018-05-06T05:41:42Z LdBeth: jackdaniel: drawing frames in PostScript for document use?
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2018-05-06T05:43:49Z LdBeth: Or it can do more generalized drawings?
2018-05-06T05:44:38Z jackdaniel: afaik only generalized drawings
2018-05-06T05:44:55Z jackdaniel: application-frame doesn't make much sense on PS document
2018-05-06T05:45:24Z beach: LdBeth: It turns a McCLIM GUI into a PostScript document.
2018-05-06T05:46:36Z LdBeth: beach: Ok, that seems make sense
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2018-05-06T06:11:53Z sunshavi: I have an error on clim-demo
2018-05-06T06:11:55Z sunshavi: ; Evaluation aborted on #<BORDEAUX-THREADS::BORDEAUX-MP-CONDITION {54DFC5C1}>.
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2018-05-06T06:38:07Z sunshavi: also the default example is not working properly
2018-05-06T06:41:56Z phoe: sunshavi: #clim should be able to help you the best
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2018-05-06T06:56:48Z beach: sunshavi: What Common Lisp implementation are you using?
2018-05-06T06:57:32Z sunshavi: beach: sbcl
2018-05-06T06:57:34Z beach: sunshavi: And, was it compiled with threads enabled?  (I am just guessing here.  Normally, those examples work)
2018-05-06T06:58:11Z sunshavi: no idea. I just installed it "sudo pacman -S sbcl"
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2018-05-06T07:01:16Z beach: I don't know that installation source.  Sorry.
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2018-05-06T07:16:20Z hjek: jackdaniel: application-frame could make sense in postscript though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript
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2018-05-06T07:18:54Z beach: sunshavi: I am way outside my comfort zone here, but you could check whether :sb-thread is a member of the *features* list.
2018-05-06T07:21:12Z beach: hjek: A typical application for the PostScript backend (and for the PDF backend as well) would be if you have something like Gsharp (and editor for music scores).  The saved PostScript document should then be a printed version of the score.  The document should not contain the buttons, the interactor pane, the scroll bars, etc.
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2018-05-06T07:29:22Z Ukari: how to export a struct in defpackage?
2018-05-06T07:29:43Z beach: Ukari: structs and functions are not exported.  Symbols are.
2018-05-06T07:30:31Z Ukari: so i need to export symbols relates to the struct?
2018-05-06T07:30:34Z sunshavi: beach: sbcl on arm does not support threading :()
2018-05-06T07:30:44Z beach: sunshavi: Ouch!
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2018-05-06T07:31:08Z sunshavi: so: probably mcclim not possible just commonQt
2018-05-06T07:31:23Z beach: Or choose an implementation other than SBCL for that processor.
2018-05-06T07:31:42Z sunshavi: which one?
2018-05-06T07:32:11Z beach: Good question.  I am not the right person to ask.
2018-05-06T07:32:23Z sunshavi: no prob
2018-05-06T07:32:33Z beach: Ukari: You export whatever names you want to use from a different package, whether they be the name of the struct, the accessors, the constructors, whatever.
2018-05-06T07:32:40Z sunshavi: i'm going to the archwiki
2018-05-06T07:32:47Z shrdlu68: sunshavi: Try out ECL.
2018-05-06T07:34:24Z beach: sunshavi: Check with jackdaniel first.  He is the maintainer of ECL, and of McCLIM, so he would know whether that is good advice or not.
2018-05-06T07:35:15Z sunshavi: mmm. this machine is an arm machine
2018-05-06T07:35:19Z Ukari: i defstruct a (defstruct iterable-object (value nil) (next nil :type function)), and export by  (:export #:make-iterable-object #:iterable-object-next #:iterable-object-value)
2018-05-06T07:35:32Z Ukari: it works, but seems need to write too much details
2018-05-06T07:35:37Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: ECL supports threading on arm
2018-05-06T07:35:43Z beach: Ukari: No, that is normal.
2018-05-06T07:36:07Z beach: Ukari: The Common Lisp implementation can not decide for you what functionality you want to make available to client code.
2018-05-06T07:36:19Z Ukari: if my struct have n slots, i need write n more detial in defpackage
2018-05-06T07:36:26Z fourier: Ukari: have a look at cl-annot, they have @export-struct annotation or something
2018-05-06T07:37:20Z beach: Ukari: Like I told you, in a typical application you definitely do not want to export the names of the accessors of all the slots.  That would be contrary to good software-engineering practice.  And, again, the Common Lisp implementation can not decide what kind of protocol you want to suggest to client code.
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2018-05-06T07:38:12Z beach: Ukari: If it so happens that you are not applying any particular modularity concerns in this case, then unfortunately, you are the exception, and you then need to export everything.
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2018-05-06T07:39:43Z fourier: its a valid concern too actually, same with defclass and its readers/accessors
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2018-05-06T07:40:12Z beach: fourier: What concern is valid according to you?
2018-05-06T07:40:32Z fourier: about having to write a lot of manual "exports" for automatically generated functions
2018-05-06T07:40:47Z beach: fourier: So what I just said does not make sense to you?
2018-05-06T07:41:10Z beach: I guess I need to work on my skills for explaining things.
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2018-05-06T07:42:12Z beach: fourier: Only in applications that do not respect the slightest software-engineering technique would one want to export the names of all the accessors, and even less so of the slot names.
2018-05-06T07:42:17Z fourier: yes it makes sense. "I want to export all readers of this class/struct" - it is the applied modularity.
2018-05-06T07:42:34Z beach: fourier: Common Lisp was not made for people that have absolutely no concern for basic modularity.
2018-05-06T07:43:19Z beach: fourier: If you find yourself wanting to export the names of all the readers of some class, then there is very likely something wrong with your abstraction.
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2018-05-06T07:43:40Z fourier: why so? its a typicall pattern for plain data storage structs
2018-05-06T07:44:13Z beach: But then you probably would not put your struct in a separate package.
2018-05-06T07:44:24Z beach: So no need to discuss whether to export or not.
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2018-05-06T07:46:16Z beach: There could *occasionally* be a need for that, but not often.  Therefore, having to export everything is an exceptional situation.  For exceptional situations, you then have to deal with the additional work of manually exporting everything.  It would not make sense to have a special mechanism in the language for that, because it is, well, exceptional.
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2018-05-06T07:46:45Z fourier: you put it to separate package to avoid name collisions for trivial accessors like "name" "age" etc
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2018-05-06T07:49:34Z fourier: but anyway we have macros to do it for us so its not a big deal
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2018-05-06T07:49:45Z beach: Of course.  But if the struct is only used as an aggregation of stuff, it would typically be in the same package as the client code.  The package boundary is more likely used to define an abstract protocol that is not concerned with how things are stored.
2018-05-06T07:50:13Z beach: Again, I agree, there might be exceptional cases.
2018-05-06T07:50:32Z beach: And, again, because they are exceptional, there is no need for a specific mechanism for exporting everything.
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2018-05-06T07:51:11Z beach: So, again, yes, you would then have to manually include all the names in the package definition.  Big deal.
2018-05-06T07:51:39Z shrdlu68: Isn't there a way to iterate?
2018-05-06T07:51:54Z beach: For structs, not sure.
2018-05-06T07:52:06Z beach: For standard classes, you could use the MOP.
2018-05-06T07:52:17Z beach: mop class-slots
2018-05-06T07:52:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2018-05-06T07:52:50Z Ukari: I tried cl-annot.class export-defstructure but get a compile error...
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2018-05-06T07:58:07Z Ukari: beach's option is acceptable if treat defstruct into constructors-function and slot-function. but if treat defstruct as static defination of a struct and it need to be use somewhere just like class in java or struct in c header, i thought defstruct should be more combined than spearated into divided functions
2018-05-06T07:58:27Z Ukari: how about use a defmacro to defstruct and export the defmacro
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2018-05-06T08:04:40Z puchacz: hi, can salza2:deflate-compressor be passed an argument so it uses "no compression"?
2018-05-06T08:05:35Z puchacz: I want to let a user download a bunch of media files bundled together, and they are compressed already, so there is no point of wasting CPU (if there is any significant waste) on trying to compress them
2018-05-06T08:05:51Z puchacz: but I need to send them as a single file, so zip file format makes a good container
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2018-05-06T08:11:30Z Ukari: i use '(make-iterable-object :value nil :next nil)' with the defination '(defstruct iterable-object (value nil) (next nil :type function))', but it tells me :next is a function type and couldn't be nil
2018-05-06T08:12:10Z Ukari: Is there anyway to make nil and :type function coexist?
2018-05-06T08:13:32Z TMA: Ukari: you can use (or null function) as the type
2018-05-06T08:14:34Z Ukari: thanks, TMA
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2018-05-06T08:19:04Z Ukari: if there is a system foo, with some packages syntax, util, which naming style is suitable. 'cl-foo-syntax, cl-foo-util' or 'cl-foo.syntax, cl-foo.util'
2018-05-06T08:19:24Z Ukari: i found both of styles in some project
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2018-05-06T09:15:05Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: yes, ecl supports theads on armv7h
2018-05-06T09:15:09Z jackdaniel: same goes for ccl
2018-05-06T09:15:29Z jackdaniel: you may prefer ccl for development though (it produces more performant code)
2018-05-06T09:16:47Z jackdaniel: on the other hand I will be able to debug problems on McCLIM <-> ECL line (because I know both considerably well)
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2018-05-06T13:13:49Z oleo: try (next (lambda ()) :type function) ?
2018-05-06T13:14:17Z oleo: a noop
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2018-05-06T13:15:19Z oleo: or like TMA told (next nil :type (or null function))
2018-05-06T13:15:21Z oleo: hmmmm
2018-05-06T13:15:38Z oleo: second is better i think
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2018-05-06T13:18:29Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: thanks. then i am going to install ccl for trying McCLIM
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2018-05-06T13:56:22Z jmercouris: ArchLinux?
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2018-05-06T16:49:03Z Ukari: is cl-cont open source? i meet a wired warning which seems to tell that a argument's type is different from declared in cl-cont::lookup
2018-05-06T16:49:26Z Ukari: the message: "Derived type of CL-CONT::LOOKUP is (VALUES CONS &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)"
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2018-05-06T16:51:59Z Bike: uh, probably. did you get it from quicklisp? quicklisp distributes source.
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2018-05-06T16:54:55Z Fare: Ukari, the license says LLGPL
2018-05-06T16:55:46Z Fare: Ukari, smells like a bug. Can you fix it?
2018-05-06T16:56:17Z Ukari: let me find and try
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2018-05-06T17:50:32Z foojin: For some strange reason, I feel obliged to fix every bug I want to report.
2018-05-06T17:50:33Z foojin: Maybe it's about "having something to show instead of simply complaining", but in the end I find the submission/review process itself too difficult and apply the fix locally.
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2018-05-06T17:51:33Z shka_: lol
2018-05-06T17:51:39Z shka_: feel free to train on cl-ds :P
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2018-05-06T17:52:30Z phoe: foojin: what do you mean by too difficult?
2018-05-06T17:53:39Z phoe: also, which projects have you found bugs in?
2018-05-06T17:53:52Z phoe: are they on some public git host somewhere?
2018-05-06T17:54:16Z foojin: shka_: Right now I don't know enough Lisp to do so.
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2018-05-06T17:55:25Z foojin: phoe: For example vim, tmux, giflib and texinfo.
2018-05-06T17:56:18Z foojin: I've left out some of the more obscure ones.
2018-05-06T17:56:57Z jmercouris: You've found patches for Vim? tmux? I'm a little bit skeptical
2018-05-06T17:56:57Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: are you a student ?
2018-05-06T17:57:01Z phoe: foojin: ouch. these may have complicated contribution processes.
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2018-05-06T17:59:07Z foojin: Sometimes I just think I don't understand the codebase well enough to consider my solutions anything but hacks.
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2018-05-06T18:02:34Z foojin: THe giflib one is most likely fixed by now, because it's about long filenames messing with an uninitialized structure field, which breaks the whole thing randomly.
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2018-05-06T18:04:59Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: I was a student, but then some stuff happened, and now I'm no longer one.
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2018-05-06T18:08:01Z pjb: foojin: you're always a student, life-long student.
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2018-05-06T18:08:17Z foojin: The thing is, I'm not proud of what I do. Seeing how everything is so brittle and poorly understood even by its creators makes it hard to be proud of my small contributions.
2018-05-06T18:08:20Z pjb: foojin: it's not the little student card a university temporarily gives you that makes you a student.
2018-05-06T18:09:18Z pjb: foojin: perhaps you would want to study some formal verification?
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2018-05-06T18:17:43Z foojin: pjb: Yes, that way I could hopefully understand the issue from a mathematical perspective.
2018-05-06T18:17:46Z foojin: I'm also interested in learning type theory to gain some insight into what I (for a long time) thought is true: that all of mathematics has a computational content to it.
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2018-05-06T18:19:51Z Bike: yeah they're all about curry howard
2018-05-06T18:21:19Z foojin: Come to think of it, mathematics has already reached a level of complexity which can only be tackled by clever abstraction, so people _have to_ be clever about adding more to it.
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2018-05-06T18:24:00Z Bike: https://i.redd.it/lu6wqi8tv9w01.jpg
2018-05-06T18:24:27Z foojin: But it doesn't help to harness the power of computers, to save oneself from mediocrity of not being able to intervene in, say, the process of interpreting someone's minified Javascript.
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2018-05-06T18:29:41Z foojin: So I don't really know what to do in such a situation. BTW sorry for being off-topic and (possibly) being a nuisance.
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2018-05-06T18:31:00Z shka_: no human being should be in position of trying to figure out JS code
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2018-05-06T18:33:12Z foojin: The point is, even after learning enough to be able to fix broken stuff around me, it still feels like I'm not flying above the surface, but merely crawling out of an underground cave. It takes time just to stay afloat.
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2018-05-06T18:35:49Z foojin: shka_: Yes, for a long time I thought that JS is actually a decent language. Not anymore, not after reading about its coercion rules and having stuff break silently because of _syntax errors_.
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2018-05-06T18:40:56Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: I used to do that back when I used Gentoo
2018-05-06T18:41:28Z fe[nl]ix: had local patches for 30-40 packages on average, most of which I sent upstream
2018-05-06T18:41:37Z fe[nl]ix: now I dream of having that much free time
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2018-05-06T18:55:15Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: I'm going to install Gentoo for that very reason, but the last time I tried to switch I couldn't find a way to make emerge print dependencies in a sane way.
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2018-05-06T18:57:23Z fe[nl]ix: Gentoo definitely makes it easy to carry local patches
2018-05-06T18:59:22Z fe[nl]ix: although you can do it almost as easily using OBS (build.opensuse.org)
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2018-05-06T19:01:14Z Josh_2: Gentoo is lit
2018-05-06T19:01:45Z foojin: Digging around in ebuilds just to understand why it installs X along with Y isn't fun. I think a package manager should do it for me, so I'll try it for real when I get around to patching it.
2018-05-06T19:02:16Z Josh_2: There are other tools for that
2018-05-06T19:03:19Z Josh_2: equery does what you want
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2018-05-06T19:04:52Z foojin: By the way, what do you guys think about Guix? It looks like someone finally tries to make a "uniform" (configuration language-wise) distro for people who aren't afraid of programming.
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2018-05-06T19:06:03Z foojin: Josh_2: Like for every dependency, print a USE flag that pulls it in?
2018-05-06T19:06:34Z foojin: Josh_2: Assuming I haven't installed the package yet.
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2018-05-06T19:08:28Z Josh_2: Best ask in #gentoo they will certainly know
2018-05-06T19:08:41Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: Guix is also for people with lots of free time. you might like it
2018-05-06T19:08:43Z Josh_2: Equery is how you see all the dependencies and descriptions of use flags etc
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2018-05-06T19:11:08Z foojin: Josh_2: Then I'll try asking there when I get around to installing it again.
2018-05-06T19:14:12Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: The worst thing is that it's most likely true. "A distro for people with an \"optimal\" amount of free time to make it work like they want" looks like an unattainable ideal.
2018-05-06T19:14:51Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: Your milage about the amount of free time may also vary.
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2018-05-06T19:15:56Z foojin: *mileage*
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2018-05-06T19:23:19Z foojin: And that brings me to the main question: how to balance mediocrity (lack of control) and theoretical enlightment with perfect tuning and doing boring stuff like reading someone's C code / autoconf output / minified JS?
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2018-05-06T19:39:55Z foojin: TLDR: being proud of one's creations vs. making life easier and solving problems.
2018-05-06T19:41:05Z fe[nl]ix: adjust your expectations and learn to be proud of imperfect solutions
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2018-05-06T19:59:35Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: Seems like the way to go. The question of having the right to do so is best asked somewhere else anyways.
2018-05-06T19:59:39Z foojin: Sorry for exploding all over the place with something completely unrelated to the topic.
2018-05-06T20:01:23Z foojin: If I didn't make everyone sick already, I have a programming language-related question that I've been pondering for a while.
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2018-05-06T20:02:13Z foojin: (this time I *will* get that patch upstream for sure)
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2018-05-06T20:47:30Z phoe: foojin: well, ask it
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2018-05-06T21:03:31Z foojin: I was AFK for a bit. Trying to make it shorter at the moment.
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2018-05-06T21:17:00Z foojin: What features can make programs written in a (hopefully not hypothetical) language easier to extend, given that
2018-05-06T21:17:06Z foojin: (1) the authors don't know in advance what would need to be extended,
2018-05-06T21:17:12Z foojin: (2) the user is able to run his own scripts (think Emacs)
2018-05-06T21:17:16Z foojin: (3) the extensions should take advantage of further upstream improvements by augmenting existing things, not reimplementing them.
2018-05-06T21:18:29Z foojin: According to the history of Emacs, Stallman admitted to having used dynamic scoping for this very reason.
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2018-05-06T21:21:49Z TMA: foojin: treat every interaction between parts of a system as an extension point; do not use the extension points internally
2018-05-06T21:22:08Z foojin: Lexical scoping is immensely useful, but anyone, who "fixed" a chunk of closure-heavy JS with a so-called "userscript", would surely admit to having had a hard time working around them.
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2018-05-06T21:23:00Z phoe: foojin: use CLOS wherever possible for your basic functionality
2018-05-06T21:23:35Z phoe: CLOS itself is insanely extensible with its BEFORE/AROUND/AFTER methods and ability to define subclasses and new methods on same generics
2018-05-06T21:23:45Z phoe: and other, more complicated parts.
2018-05-06T21:24:29Z TMA: foojin: a concrete representation of my advice is: use CLOS, but do not use :before, :around or :after methods yourself to let them be available as the extension points
2018-05-06T21:24:55Z phoe: ^
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2018-05-06T21:33:06Z foojin: phoe, TMA: I've heard a lot about CLOS and MOP, they're the main reasons (besides Scheme's lack of libraries) I once again picked up "On Lisp". But what about a more "fundamental" data type, functions?
2018-05-06T21:33:59Z foojin: What do you think about an operator that creates a function F as if it was defined where another function G (given as a value) is (yes, it will impede compilation and possibly hold onto objects that no one will ever use).
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2018-05-06T21:35:48Z foojin: That could solve the problem of people stashing too much stuff inside closures, making their functions "unwrappable".
2018-05-06T21:38:15Z Bike: what? 'where' it's defined?
2018-05-06T21:39:18Z foojin: Bike: That is, in the same lexical context, to make it possible to replicate any closure.
2018-05-06T21:40:06Z Bike: so it would require having the point at which any function is defined have its entire lexical environment saved along with the function?
2018-05-06T21:40:13Z Bike: and what does that even have to do with CLOS
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2018-05-06T21:40:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
2018-05-06T21:41:38Z foojin: Nothing. I do think that CLOS is a more proncipled and general solution, so the last question isn't related to that.
2018-05-06T21:41:45Z foojin: *principled
2018-05-06T21:41:49Z phoe: instead of saving all the state in a lexical closure, save that state in a CLOS instance and use methods instead of functions
2018-05-06T21:42:16Z phoe: the "fundamental" data type that you describe will give you more PITA than a CLOS-oriented approach.
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2018-05-06T21:50:33Z foojin: phoe: I see. That seems to even take care of what's in scope, so that whatever the original author used would still be available for the extension code.
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2018-05-06T21:52:18Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-06T21:52:44Z MichaelRaskin: foojin: well, if you are ready to do partial recompilation, and to use a powerful enough code walker…
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2018-05-06T21:53:21Z DemolitionMan: any cl-influxdb user?
2018-05-06T21:53:44Z aeth: I personally see CLOS as *too* general and flexible of a solution
2018-05-06T21:54:07Z minion: aeth, memo from pjb: https://codeshare.io/5e8R97
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2018-05-06T21:54:14Z foojin: phoe: And the original author would have to deal with "undercomposition", if someone's extension requires their code to expose a particular point.
2018-05-06T21:54:16Z aeth: Nearly every time I started out with my own defgeneric/defmethod (as opposed to defining some method to fit someone else's API) I wound up converting it into a defun later.
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2018-05-06T21:55:39Z aeth: (I'm obviously excluding the methods that are generated automatically in defclass, of course)
2018-05-06T21:55:40Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: What's a code walker?
2018-05-06T21:56:11Z Bike: what does not using defgeneric have to do with being "too general"
2018-05-06T21:56:24Z Bike: i thought you were going to talk about method combinations or something, not the part everyone uses
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2018-05-06T21:56:46Z MichaelRaskin: A tool that allows to traverse the code after it has been written, and maybe even make some changes
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2018-05-06T22:00:36Z aeth: Bike: I think a lot of the time CLOS just offers flexibility where none is needed.
2018-05-06T22:00:39Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: sounds like Smalltalk rule-based refactoring
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2018-05-06T22:01:07Z Bike: i don't think "i thought i needed methods, but actually i didn't" is a very interesting story
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2018-05-06T22:01:26Z Bike: like if nothing else you should elaborate on the particular circumstances or something
2018-05-06T22:01:34Z Bike: object oriented programming is kind of big now
2018-05-06T22:01:54Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: So it's a interface which can be used by the program to modify itself, relying on the compiler to keep everything available?
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2018-05-06T22:02:20Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: Or did you mean a particular kind of editor that people use interactively?
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2018-05-06T22:02:51Z Bike: a code walker is a program that operates on code while understanding lisp semantics
2018-05-06T22:02:56Z Bike: a compiler can be understood as a kind of code walker
2018-05-06T22:03:04Z aeth: Bike: Idk, I think a lot of modern styles (some of which Lisp could do before CLOS even existed) could probably be described as "post-OOP" styles.
2018-05-06T22:03:30Z MichaelRaskin: Bike: full semantics is not really needed for a code walker, but understanding the general Lisp code structure is a must
2018-05-06T22:03:40Z Bike: yes, i mean like, special operator syntax and stuff
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2018-05-06T22:04:23Z aeth: Bike: If anything, I think we might be at the point where OOP is underused in places where it could be used, as a reaction to its earlier overuse.
2018-05-06T22:04:41Z aeth: (At least in new software.)
2018-05-06T22:04:46Z Bike: i thought i needed methods but i didn't, but also maybe we need more methods?
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2018-05-06T22:05:04Z aeth: I'm replying to "object oriented programming is kind of big now"
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2018-05-06T22:05:47Z aeth: Most of the "big" hype in languages these days seems to be people trying to copy and paste Haskell into JavaScript or the JVM.
2018-05-06T22:05:51Z Bike: in a way that directly contradicts what you seemed to be saying before?
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2018-05-06T22:06:12Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: With this definition in mind, would Emacs+Paredit qualify?
2018-05-06T22:06:18Z Bike: no
2018-05-06T22:06:39Z MichaelRaskin: Paredit doesn't understand let as something special
2018-05-06T22:06:55Z MichaelRaskin: I think
2018-05-06T22:07:02Z MichaelRaskin: And definitely not advanced macros
2018-05-06T22:07:07Z Bike: i mean, it balances parentheses
2018-05-06T22:07:11Z aeth: Bike: It's not a contradiction because I was talking about my own personal overuse of a CLOS feature before, and now I'm talking about what trends I've observed in programming language hype.
2018-05-06T22:07:13Z Bike: it doesn't know anything particular about lisp
2018-05-06T22:07:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: Why not rainbow parentheses?
2018-05-06T22:07:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: When you do )))))))))) it makes a rainbow.
2018-05-06T22:08:00Z MichaelRaskin: foojin: I would imagine — in Lisp terms — a custom readtable that leads to every form being wrapped in a macro that expands to what was originally written (by default)
2018-05-06T22:08:00Z aeth: theemacsshibe[m]: Why would I want to do manual parentheses matching?
2018-05-06T22:08:11Z aeth: Even with a visual aid?
2018-05-06T22:08:27Z MichaelRaskin: But then a user can request some override or ask to inject some code somewhere
2018-05-06T22:08:30Z theemacsshibe[m]: Fair enough
2018-05-06T22:08:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: I've just never got the hang of editors adding them for me.
2018-05-06T22:08:41Z MichaelRaskin: Because rainbows are pretty?
2018-05-06T22:09:07Z aeth: I prefer highlighting key words (not keywords!), not background noise, personally.
2018-05-06T22:09:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: Also that.
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2018-05-06T22:10:33Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: So it's not just a refactoring tool, it also works at runtime?
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2018-05-06T22:11:02Z MichaelRaskin: Compile-time, hopefully
2018-05-06T22:11:07Z Bike: maybe it would help to actually use one
2018-05-06T22:11:14Z Bike: i think you have a serious misperception
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2018-05-06T22:11:32Z MichaelRaskin: Or maybe it is better to say «load-time, doing some compiling»
2018-05-06T22:11:50Z foojin: Bike: I do, since it's the first time I've heard about it.
2018-05-06T22:12:05Z Bike: raskin wrote one, i forget what it's called though
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2018-05-06T22:12:54Z MichaelRaskin: Agnostic-Lizard
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2018-05-06T22:13:42Z MichaelRaskin: And in the repository, there is an example of the crazy wrap-everything trick
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2018-05-06T22:17:46Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: I'll check it out.
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2018-05-06T22:25:19Z foojin: I see. It basically allows one to run arbitrary queries against the source code, check assumptions ... like Coccinelle, which kernel folks use, but for Lisp?
2018-05-06T22:25:45Z Bike: "program matching and transformation engine" yeah sounds about right
2018-05-06T22:25:57Z Bike: i mean it's intended for basically arbitrary operations
2018-05-06T22:27:51Z foojin: BTW I wanted to learn Coccinelle to hack on tmux, but there's not much in the way of resources besides a language grammar and kernel-related checks.
2018-05-06T22:29:01Z foojin: I thought it would make reasoning about C easier, but it turned out to be a PITA in its own right.
2018-05-06T22:29:19Z MichaelRaskin: Agnostic Lizard is quite limited
2018-05-06T22:29:40Z MichaelRaskin: It just goes through the code and calls callbacks
2018-05-06T22:29:59Z Bike: well, that's pretty much whart code walkers do...
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2018-05-06T22:30:08Z MichaelRaskin: (in the process it macroexpands stuff)
2018-05-06T22:30:24Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it doesn't for example, come with a built-in variable renamer
2018-05-06T22:31:38Z foojin: Can it write out the transformed result with indentation intact?
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2018-05-06T22:32:31Z MichaelRaskin: It doesn't know the input indentation — it gets just the Lisp forms
2018-05-06T22:32:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: fun fact: symbolics went defunct 22 years ago
2018-05-06T22:32:52Z MichaelRaskin: (also, it expands most macros, so old indentation is not always even applicable)
2018-05-06T22:33:19Z Bike: the lisp printer can remake the indentation, but it shouts
2018-05-06T22:33:39Z Bike: foojin: in lisp we don't usually deal with source code as text/character sequences. metaiconicity and all that shit
2018-05-06T22:34:53Z MichaelRaskin: I guess some tools from SICL or Second Climacs (primarily by Robert Strandh) could be applied, those do care about text-code correspondence
2018-05-06T22:35:25Z Bike: homoiconicity. mixing up some shit
2018-05-06T22:37:20Z foojin: Bike: It would come in handy to automatically enforce guidelines, like those used in kernel development. Is it a good idea to make additional context information available for cases like this?
2018-05-06T22:37:35Z Bike: What kind of context information?
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2018-05-06T22:41:07Z foojin: Say, the indentation level and type, like ((spaces 2) (tabs 3) (spaces 1)). If it's too granular, provide functions to assemble a textual representation based on those cues.
2018-05-06T22:41:48Z Bike: syntax stuff? that's not really the point of a codewalker
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2018-05-06T22:43:44Z foojin: It would work just fine as-is, for checking code before trying to commit it, but large-scale refactoring would leave a mess instead of formatted code.
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2018-05-06T22:45:28Z Bike: you're thinking in terms of text. text is pretty much a separate question from what a code walker does.
2018-05-06T22:45:36Z MichaelRaskin: Well, for large-scale refactoring you could format from scratch
2018-05-06T22:45:44Z aeth: Comments are the real problem. Most CL code can be restored with *print-case* set to :downcase
2018-05-06T22:46:53Z aeth: And if you use fancier features so that isn't true then you probably already violate good style
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2018-05-06T22:49:59Z foojin: aeth: In other words it's not a problem, since there is such a thing as _the style_, which this *print-case* is aware of and everyone is encouraged to use?
2018-05-06T22:50:31Z Bike: not so much as there's a "the style", as that you can write a program that prints code as text in whatever style you want
2018-05-06T22:51:16Z aeth: Well, my original point is that you can theoretically restore everything but comments easily
2018-05-06T22:51:36Z aeth: Assuming you lower-case all of your symbols, as is usual
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2018-05-06T22:54:48Z foojin: Bike: Which in turn could make use of the code walker to distinguish forms based on their meaning. I didn't think of that.
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2018-05-06T22:55:25Z Bike: you could. i think emacs is dumber, but still usually works
2018-05-06T22:55:37Z Bike: beach has a lot of stuff in mind for a really smart editor that uses that kind of knowhow
2018-05-06T22:55:44Z Bike: er, robert strandh.
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2018-05-06T23:00:27Z foojin: Come to think of it, there are actually people out there who make Emacs parse all those programming languages, probably reimplementing sizable chunks of existing parsers.
2018-05-06T23:01:07Z foojin: I'm still uncomfortable with paredit just reindenting the whole thing after an operation. The author even admits to the shortcomings of this approach in a comment before paredit-convolute-sexp.
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2018-05-06T23:14:35Z foojin: By the way, why do Lispers use ^L in their programs, if not to take advantage of Emacs' narowing/moving functions?
2018-05-06T23:17:17Z p_l: foojin: it's not narrowing, it's page breaks
2018-05-06T23:17:35Z p_l: so you'll find it in some really old code
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2018-05-06T23:28:43Z foojin: p_l: I almost thought the reason would be to use it with some kind of tool that expects it. Maybe in Elisp world this is about consistency, seeing as it's used in Paredit, which doesn't seem too old.
2018-05-06T23:29:29Z p_l: foojin: ^L predates GNU Emacs, and afaik by itself gets hooked into "next/prev-page" commands
2018-05-06T23:29:58Z p_l: so in a sense, poor man's micro outliner for source code?
2018-05-06T23:30:19Z p_l: Whether the general idea happened first in Emacs is hard to say
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2018-05-07T00:00:34Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-07T00:01:02Z DemolitionMan: please how can I encode rfc3339 date time into nanoseconds integer 64? hanks for helo
2018-05-07T00:01:05Z DemolitionMan: help
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2018-05-07T00:18:07Z MichaelRaskin: Does this format even contain anything below seconds?
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2018-05-07T00:43:00Z Bike: doesn't look like it. so nanoseconds just gives it a scaling factor, easy
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2018-05-07T00:44:18Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, nanoseconds eat quite a bit of bits. But 64-bit number should still be able to represent entire 21st century. And 22nd too, if unsigned
2018-05-07T00:44:32Z Bike: that's enough centuries for anybody.
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2018-05-07T00:47:32Z MichaelRaskin: So said Mayas; look at all the panic when their notation ran out.
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2018-05-07T00:52:50Z Bike: it didn't run out, just had to go to the next highest digit
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2018-05-07T00:53:30Z MichaelRaskin: That's true, but that digits seems to be underspecified enough
2018-05-07T00:54:07Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, Unix time also doesn't run out in 2038, it's just that some systems store it in a way with not enough space for the next digit
2018-05-07T00:56:24Z Bike: well, they should have more bits for the next b'ak'tun
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2018-05-07T01:22:53Z Fare: MichaelRaskin, the problem with nanosecond encoding of something defined up to one-second adjustments is... what happen at leap seconds?
2018-05-07T01:24:01Z Fare: (That said... it's the time encoding I use in Gerbil's clan/utils/date.ss so who am I to cast any stone?)
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2018-05-07T03:26:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-07T03:26:47Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-07T03:30:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: afternoon, beach
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2018-05-07T04:46:06Z phoe: Morning
2018-05-07T04:46:39Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2018-05-07T05:51:06Z loke: I'm looking at the Maxima code, and I see this.
2018-05-07T05:51:22Z loke: Am I stupid, or is this just equivalent to (unless point-lists ...)?
2018-05-07T05:51:32Z loke: (when (= (count-if #'(lambda (x) x) points-lists) 0) ...)
2018-05-07T05:52:08Z loke: Hmm... I guess it also handles arrays...
2018-05-07T05:52:40Z White_Flame: the WHEN passes if there are no NILs in the lisp
2018-05-07T05:52:41Z White_Flame: *list
2018-05-07T05:52:48Z loke: Ah yes. of course.
2018-05-07T05:52:53Z White_Flame: so '(1 2 3 4 5) will pass, '(1 2 nil 4 5) will fail
2018-05-07T05:52:59Z loke: If all elements in the list are empty sequences.
2018-05-07T05:53:27Z White_Flame: of course, there would be a few ways to collapse that lambda to make it shorter
2018-05-07T05:53:41Z loke: No wait... it counts if _any_ elements are nil
2018-05-07T05:53:49Z White_Flame: and instead of count, do a simpler exists check
2018-05-07T05:54:10Z loke: so it's equivalent to (some #'null X)
2018-05-07T05:54:17Z White_Flame: ah, right
2018-05-07T05:54:30Z loke: No wait
2018-05-07T05:54:33Z White_Flame: it's still not a simple UNLESS
2018-05-07T05:54:35Z loke: the opposite
2018-05-07T05:54:58Z White_Flame: can you tell from the context what it's trying to do semantically?
2018-05-07T05:55:28Z loke: It contains a list of lists of poitns to be plotted in a graph
2018-05-07T05:55:38Z loke:  ;; Compute points to plot for each element of FUN.    ;; If no plottable points are found, return immediately from $PLOT2D.
2018-05-07T05:55:54Z White_Flame: ok, so the WHEN is an abort clause
2018-05-07T05:56:08Z White_Flame: if it's a list of NILs, or empty, bail
2018-05-07T05:56:38Z White_Flame: well, if it's a list of generalize boolean falses, or empty :-P
2018-05-07T05:58:27Z loke: Ok, so it's (every #'null LISTS)
2018-05-07T06:00:20Z loke: Maxima is really old code, and it's still maintained to support every Lis under the sun. They still maintain GCL compatibility.
2018-05-07T06:00:34Z loke: Perhaps some implementation doesn't support #'IDENTITY
2018-05-07T06:01:33Z aeth: seems like you could make that more efficient
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2018-05-07T06:33:32Z blep-on-external: i've finally hit the point where i can write cl-who macros without making mistakes c:
2018-05-07T06:33:56Z blep-on-external: maybe i should generalise my macros now
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2018-05-07T06:34:08Z MichaelRaskin: Fare: trust me, the problem also exists when you just use the number of seconds
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2018-05-07T06:35:23Z ealfonso: I was told by someone here that by using cl-json instead of jonathan, I could avoid the hack of adding '("application" "json") to drakma:*text-content-types*... does that person know what cl-json method I should be using?
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2018-05-07T06:37:42Z loke: ealfonso: why would you do that?
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2018-05-07T06:39:08Z loke: ealfonso: you do somehting like this: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/xkcd-processor.lisp#L17
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2018-05-07T06:40:45Z ealfonso: so body seems to be some kind of byte array, which jonathan doesn't understand
2018-05-07T06:41:19Z loke: I don't know what jonathan is.
2018-05-07T06:41:35Z loke: But what I do in the code I linked should be similar with any JSON library.
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2018-05-07T06:42:13Z loke: If the remote server doesn't use the correct content-type, you can always parse it yourself like this:
2018-05-07T06:42:30Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/youtube-processor.lisp#L40
2018-05-07T06:42:52Z DemolitionMan: hi
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2018-05-07T06:44:39Z ealfonso: loke https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries this website suggests the hack I've been using. body appears to be some kind of byte array, which "no JSON library knows what to do with it."
2018-05-07T06:44:57Z ealfonso: but then someone here mentioned cl-json does handle it
2018-05-07T06:45:17Z loke: ealfonso: You convert the byte arraqy to a string using UTF-8 encoding
2018-05-07T06:45:32Z loke: (babel:octets-to-string THE-BYTE-ARRAY :encoding :utf-8)
2018-05-07T06:46:44Z LdBeth: Is there a lib auto detect encoding?
2018-05-07T06:47:08Z blep-on-external: on the topic of json, are there any libraries which decode to hash-maps? cl-json only encodes from hashmaps
2018-05-07T06:47:24Z ealfonso: loke thanks, I guess that worked
2018-05-07T06:47:59Z ealfonso: blep-on-external I'm using jonathan, but cl-json has cl-json:custom-decoder
2018-05-07T06:48:06Z jdz: blep-on-external: pretty sure cl-yason uses hash-tables.
2018-05-07T06:48:08Z DemolitionMan: please help: https://pastebin.com/BFuq4gGW
2018-05-07T06:48:10Z DemolitionMan: :)
2018-05-07T06:48:37Z ealfonso: blep-on-external no idea if that will do what you ant
2018-05-07T06:48:49Z LdBeth: blep-on-external-blep: cl-yaml probably could do that
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2018-05-07T06:49:33Z LdBeth: Is JSON really a subset of YAML?
2018-05-07T06:49:37Z blep-on-external: well, anything with a "symmetrical" read/write
2018-05-07T06:49:47Z blep-on-external: like i can use assoc for read but for write i get duplicates
2018-05-07T06:50:00Z blep-on-external: getf seems to have (setf (get ...)) which is interesting
2018-05-07T06:50:42Z ealfonso: loke it is curious that I'm precisely writing a youtube-api client
2018-05-07T06:52:07Z blep-on-external: given that getf is symmetrical i'll just use that. thanks for the reccomendation though
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2018-05-07T07:10:04Z hajovonta: hello
2018-05-07T07:10:46Z LdBeth: sup
2018-05-07T07:10:54Z hajovonta: nada :)
2018-05-07T07:11:20Z hajovonta: working myself through a pile of emails
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2018-05-07T07:52:51Z beach: DemolitionMan: There are several stylistic problems with your code.
2018-05-07T07:53:57Z beach: DemolitionMan: I find it hard to concentrate on the logic, because I am distracted by the unconventional style.
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2018-05-07T07:56:19Z beach: DemolitionMan: But if you want to, I can give you feedback on the style issues.
2018-05-07T07:58:20Z dim: beach: do you have an opinion on the https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf document?
2018-05-07T07:59:16Z beach: dim: Yes, I follow it pretty closely.  Especially page 13 where they explain how the expectations are violated in various situations.
2018-05-07T08:01:13Z beach: dim: The authors are very experience programmers and very experienced Lispers.  I find it insulting when some much less experienced person claims that their advice is without merit.
2018-05-07T08:01:58Z DemolitionMan: beach: stylistic? is that a matter of fashion ?
2018-05-07T08:02:19Z dim: beach: +1
2018-05-07T08:02:23Z beach: DemolitionMan: Are you trying to be witty?
2018-05-07T08:02:41Z dim: DemolitionMan: read the document I've linked and then decide for yourself, the paper is very good at explaining why it's important
2018-05-07T08:03:13Z DemolitionMan: dim: I read it long ago
2018-05-07T08:04:15Z shka: i like beach style guide
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2018-05-07T08:05:00Z beach: DemolitionMan: Anyway, I take your remark to mean that you do not want such feedback.
2018-05-07T08:05:05Z shka: it is reasonable short, at least
2018-05-07T08:05:21Z DemolitionMan: beach: thanks
2018-05-07T08:06:12Z dim: there was another document that I liked very much about programming style, from the Erlang community, which insisted on showing your intentions
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2018-05-07T08:06:55Z dim: in the example they gave they ended up with mostly one-line function bodies and very long function names, and reading the code, it was pretty obvious what they wanted to happen
2018-05-07T08:07:12Z beach: Sounds like good advice.
2018-05-07T08:07:18Z dim: so my main programming style focus is “make your intention obvious”
2018-05-07T08:07:58Z ealfonso: is it ok to use -> in CL?
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2018-05-07T08:08:14Z ealfonso: threading macro
2018-05-07T08:08:34Z dim: oh apparently there's a whole Wikipedia entry on the topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_programming
2018-05-07T08:09:45Z dim: oh and I wrote a Common Lisp related blog post about that in https://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/solving-every-sudoku-puzzle/ too ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:11:11Z beach: dim: Thanks for the information.
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2018-05-07T08:12:42Z jackdaniel: ealfonso: sure - if you use it consistently why not
2018-05-07T08:12:52Z jackdaniel: it is not that programming style does not evolve
2018-05-07T08:12:59Z jackdaniel: and evolution requires small deviations
2018-05-07T08:13:14Z dim: sorry about the self promotion... remembering and finding again writings of 6 years ago doesn't happen a lot to me
2018-05-07T08:13:26Z jackdaniel: (that said, Norvig's guide is excellent)
2018-05-07T08:14:04Z jackdaniel: dim: I think it is fine if the post is relevant and interesting
2018-05-07T08:15:18Z dim: it's not as relevant as Norvig's paper, but well
2018-05-07T08:15:44Z beach: dim: Your blog thingy could need some style improvements as well.
2018-05-07T08:15:49Z dim: anyway I'm having to get back to writing C code and SQL unit tests ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:16:25Z dim: beach: yeah, I like it that I've been able to make it all by myself, but it shows and in a bad way :/
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2018-05-07T08:16:53Z dim: beach: is it more about the English or the visuals?
2018-05-07T08:16:58Z beach: dim: Also, if you wrote this some time ago, your style has probably improved since.
2018-05-07T08:17:22Z dim: I think it has, in huge parts thanks to the pro reviewing I got when editing my book
2018-05-07T08:17:33Z beach: dim: Let me have a second look and I'll tell you...
2018-05-07T08:17:38Z jackdaniel: speaking of blogging, a very interesting use of JSCL: http://blog.klipse.tech/lisp/2018/05/07/blog-common-lisp.html
2018-05-07T08:17:54Z jackdaniel: you can embed executable CL (with some limitations, JSCL is incomplete) in your blogpost
2018-05-07T08:18:09Z beach: Anyway, I find it, let's say "interesting" when people ask for help with some code, i.e. they want others to read, understand, and help fix it.  But then they can't be bothered to respect even the most basic conventions about code layout and other stylistic rules.
2018-05-07T08:18:39Z jackdaniel: to be fair many newcomers fix the indentation and patiently wait for further advices
2018-05-07T08:20:13Z beach: dim: Several indentation problems: Body of MAKE-ARRAY in the first example. Argument of POSSIBLE-VALUES.
2018-05-07T08:20:19Z flip214: dim: find-position-with-fewest-possibilities: how about using (ITERATE ... (MINIMIZE ...)?) Not sure whether LOOP has MINIMIZE, too.
2018-05-07T08:20:37Z shka: hmmm, norvig guide is very informative
2018-05-07T08:20:40Z beach: dim: Useless newline after LOOP, probably because you weren't using SLIME-INDENTATION at the time.
2018-05-07T08:21:25Z beach: dim: The line starting with IN in the LOOP should be indented to show that it is not a separate clause.  SLIME-INDENTATION will do that.
2018-05-07T08:22:07Z beach: dim: Use of (+ ... 1) and (- ... 1) should be replaced by 1+ and 1-.  The rule is to use the most specific construct that will work.
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2018-05-07T08:22:34Z shka: redirecting trace-output to file looks like usefull trick
2018-05-07T08:22:47Z beach: dim: I personally never use WITH-SLOTS because I consider slots to be an implementation detail.  I use WITH-ACCESSORS instead.
2018-05-07T08:23:16Z beach: dim: I also don't put blank lines in the middle of function bodies.
2018-05-07T08:24:38Z beach: dim: The naming convention for predicates in Common Lisp is to end the name with `P' rather than `?' as in VALUE-IS-SET-P.
2018-05-07T08:25:37Z dim: beach: normally the indentation is all done with Emacs/SLIME, I rarely overrule it… in the case of the article, I wonder how much of it is a rendering issue
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2018-05-07T08:25:56Z beach: It could be, especially if you allow Emacs to use TABs.
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2018-05-07T08:26:17Z beach: dim: There is a flag you can set in Emacs so that it always uses spaces.
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2018-05-07T08:26:39Z beach: dim: The LOOP problem is very likely the lack of SLIME-INDENTATION though.
2018-05-07T08:26:53Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/tapoueh.org/blob/master/content/post/2012/07/solving-sudoku.md is the source, but well, I can't suppose you'll be interested that much, thanks already for having had a look; also I don't think I'm going to fix it anyway (too many other things to do)
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2018-05-07T08:27:09Z beach: Sure, just saying.
2018-05-07T08:27:21Z dim: thanks for spending time on my article by all means!
2018-05-07T08:27:34Z beach: Anytime.
2018-05-07T08:27:58Z dim: beach: using #'1-, I can't read that easily still, so I avoid it
2018-05-07T08:28:02Z beach: The argument to POSSIBLE-VALUES seems to be a TAB problem.
2018-05-07T08:28:19Z beach: dim: I see.  But here is the reason for those...
2018-05-07T08:28:27Z dim: I liked what pjb had to say about that, that 1+ and 1- are very good when used as function arguments, not so much for computation
2018-05-07T08:29:10Z dim: with-accessors, I'll have a look at that
2018-05-07T08:29:29Z dim: I seldom use with-slots in “real” code, but it sometimes comes in handy
2018-05-07T08:29:59Z beach: dim: If you have (- <very-long-expression> 1) you don't see that it is 1 that is subtracted until much later.  So the person reading the code must "push that on the stack" until the second argument of #'- is available.  If #'1- is used instead, no additional memory is needed on the part of the person reading the code.
2018-05-07T08:30:20Z dim: good point
2018-05-07T08:30:34Z dim: nowadays I've found myself writing (+ -1 ...) more and more often
2018-05-07T08:31:04Z beach: The same thing is true for many of the other instances of the rule "use the most specific construct that will work".
2018-05-07T08:31:11Z dim: I find it so much easier to then hack around when you have off-by-one bugs or other adjustments to make
2018-05-07T08:31:26Z beach: I can see that.
2018-05-07T08:32:05Z dim: I feel a little stupid each time I write (+ -1...), but I thank myself each time I have to revisit such written code
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2018-05-07T08:32:35Z beach: dim: Interestingly, that particular version has the same property that I just mentioned about #'1-.
2018-05-07T08:33:19Z beach: dim: I.e. once you get to the ... part, you already know that 1 is going to be subtracted.
2018-05-07T08:33:19Z dim: it does
2018-05-07T08:33:32Z dim: except that I'm never sure what happens with 1-
2018-05-07T08:33:45Z beach: You'll learn.
2018-05-07T08:33:48Z dim: like #'/, I find it hard to read, so I'd rather use truncate
2018-05-07T08:34:16Z beach: Many non-native speakers of English find the use of UNLESS problematic.  That was the case for me in the beginning.
2018-05-07T08:34:35Z beach: But it is well worth getting used to.
2018-05-07T08:35:35Z LdBeth: then you have #'COMPOSE to do tacit programming to avoid nesting
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2018-05-07T08:35:46Z dim: unless has a special place in my mind, because I used to despise those forms in perl and I really like them in lisp, and I did need some thinking to realize that Perl allowing them after the statement is what I don't like
2018-05-07T08:35:56Z dim: do stuff or die "trying";
2018-05-07T08:36:08Z dim: (unless ... (do ...)) ; that I can read easily ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:37:07Z beach: dim: Oh, yes, I understand completely.
2018-05-07T08:37:34Z dim: LdBeth: I don't much care about avoiding nesting, let's optimize for code READING, nesting is a good hint; and if you have too much nesting anyway then just split the code into more “units” (functions, usually)
2018-05-07T08:37:38Z beach: dim: That's making it hard to read BY DESIGN.
2018-05-07T08:38:28Z dim: yeah well that's Perl, what did you expect? ;-)
2018-05-07T08:39:27Z LdBeth: That’s why I think LOOP macro improves readability
2018-05-07T08:39:30Z shka: well, it is difficult to build style by solo programming
2018-05-07T08:39:57Z shka: and honestly, that's what i do in the lisp land
2018-05-07T08:40:31Z beach: shka: Bah, just do what I do; submit your code here for people to read.  You will get ample feedback that way.
2018-05-07T08:40:41Z dim: hehe
2018-05-07T08:40:54Z dim: it's easy to get reviews on code style on a 10 lines snippet
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2018-05-07T08:41:06Z dim: it's not as easy to get architecture feedback on complete systems
2018-05-07T08:41:13Z dim: which is fine
2018-05-07T08:41:14Z beach: True 'dat.
2018-05-07T08:41:20Z dim: I'm just more interested in the latter
2018-05-07T08:42:43Z dim: in the past by mentioning problems I had with some pgloader code I got enough incentive to rewrite subsystems entirely, which is good already
2018-05-07T08:44:43Z dim: the new code is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pg-copy/copy-format.lisp by the way, much better than before if you can believe that ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:45:20Z shka: beach: and get totally roasted :D
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2018-05-07T08:54:01Z beach: shka: Yes, that's part of the learning experience.  Same thing when learning a foreign language.  The most efficient way is to start talking and writing, being ridiculed, and then using that feedback to improve.
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2018-05-07T08:55:02Z beach: dim: Norvig and Pitman would disagree with (IF ROW...
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2018-05-07T08:55:25Z beach: dim: Same with (WHEN PG-VECTOR-ROW...
2018-05-07T08:55:58Z beach: dim: And you LOOP body is still badly indented, suggesting you are still not using SLIME-INDENTATION.
2018-05-07T08:57:32Z beach: dim: You can save one level of indentation by replacing (loop for ... (let ((<var> ...)) by (loop for ... for <var> ... ...
2018-05-07T08:58:12Z beach: dim: Useless PROGNs in COND clauses.  COND has an implicit PROGN in each clause.
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2018-05-07T09:00:03Z LdBeth: A static syntax checker would be helpful
2018-05-07T09:00:40Z beach: LdBeth: Sounds like you found yourself a good project.
2018-05-07T09:01:46Z _death: dim: my imagined ELIMINATE would closely follow Norvig's, something like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/779#779
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2018-05-07T09:12:34Z loke: I've started working on graphs in Climaxima: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XFUYNHbVyEcQKYiL7
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2018-05-07T09:14:33Z beach: Nice!
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2018-05-07T09:16:04Z dim: beach: I tend to use useless progn for indentation hints in Emacs :/
2018-05-07T09:17:16Z dim: I'll need to re-read the style's guide then
2018-05-07T09:17:24Z beach: dim: But you don't do it consistently.
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2018-05-07T09:18:18Z beach: dim: So that makes the person reading your code think that there is some subtle difference between different clauses.  Perhaps you grep for progn in some other tool, or perhaps you have a code walker that treats the PROGN clauses differently.
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2018-05-07T09:18:36Z dim: the pgloader project is old enough that my style changed in the way I guess
2018-05-07T09:18:56Z beach: Sure, but you see what I am saying, right?
2018-05-07T09:18:59Z dim: yeah
2018-05-07T09:19:35Z dim: I'm not sure I want to fix Emacs/SLIME display of cond clauses so that I don't have to use progn to get the visuals that help me though...
2018-05-07T09:20:29Z dim: in that case, progn doesn't bring anything on the table I'm afraid
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2018-05-07T09:22:43Z beach: dim: Also, I use #.(format nil ...) for documentation strings that span several lines.  That way I can use the ~@ FORMAT directive so that I can align all lines with the first.
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2018-05-07T09:23:19Z beach: dim: I find it very distracting to have documentation strings in column 0, and in fact, Emacs doesn't handle that situation very well either.
2018-05-07T09:25:24Z beach: dim: Oh, and you can save yet another level of indentation by replacing (LET ((LENGTH ...) (STRING ...)) (LOOP FOR... with (LOOP WITH LENGTH = WITH STRING = FOR.
2018-05-07T09:29:18Z loke: beach: That graph I shared really shows that we need xrender for drawing lines
2018-05-07T09:29:44Z loke: Another alternative is to write a new backend that uses Cairo
2018-05-07T09:30:48Z beach: loke: I think we should use xrender for everything, if possible.
2018-05-07T09:30:57Z loke: beach: Yeah
2018-05-07T09:31:15Z beach: That way, we will be closer to what other backends such as OpenGL would do.
2018-05-07T09:31:32Z loke: I have had a hard time finding an example (in C, even) how to draw a simple polygon using xrender
2018-05-07T09:31:46Z loke: It was easier to find one for text, which is where I started when I did the new text renderer.
2018-05-07T09:31:59Z beach: Yeah, it is very poorly documented.  Adding a CLX layer on top makes it even harder.
2018-05-07T09:32:14Z beach: Hell, I can't even understand the protocol specification, even though I have tried many times.
2018-05-07T09:32:17Z loke: That's fine for me acutally. I had to dig into that when I was doing text with xrender.
2018-05-07T09:32:21Z loke: It's not that complictaed.
2018-05-07T09:32:53Z beach: Good.  Then it would be great to make the CLX documentation independent of the xlib and protocol specifications.
2018-05-07T09:33:21Z loke: beach: We'd need to use Cairo for that then
2018-05-07T09:33:36Z beach: Why?
2018-05-07T09:33:37Z loke: beach: Goign to cairo pretty much means implementing a new backend.
2018-05-07T09:33:48Z beach: Why do we need Cairo?
2018-05-07T09:33:49Z loke: Because Xrender is still very much CLX level
2018-05-07T09:34:09Z beach: Sure.  I just meant the CLX documentation.
2018-05-07T09:34:09Z loke: So if you want to be independnt on CLX, we need a higher level API, and that's Cairo.
2018-05-07T09:34:15Z beach: No, no.
2018-05-07T09:34:18Z beach: Not independent of CLX.
2018-05-07T09:34:30Z beach: I want the CLX documentation to be self contained.
2018-05-07T09:34:56Z beach: Not requiring the reader to understand C xlib or the protocol specification.
2018-05-07T09:35:18Z loke: beach: Hmm...
2018-05-07T09:36:11Z beach: I totally hate documentation that requires the reader to read and understand some other documentation and to do some mental translation between them.
2018-05-07T09:36:21Z loke: I'd really prefer to see a cairo backend actually. Cairo has so much stuff that I'd like to be able to use, instead of having to rebuild it from scratch, poorly.
2018-05-07T09:37:08Z beach: That's a separate issue, though.
2018-05-07T09:37:34Z loke: Indeed
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2018-05-07T09:38:47Z loke: Looking at this paper now, which is what I need to implement the core operations using xrender: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/87_2-04.pdf
2018-05-07T09:41:48Z beach: loke: xrender can already do triangles.
2018-05-07T09:41:56Z beach: Just represent a line as two triangles.
2018-05-07T09:42:06Z loke: beach: Right, but you need to be able to do circles, ellipses, bezier curves
2018-05-07T09:42:26Z beach: Those are not too hard either.
2018-05-07T09:42:50Z loke: The paper addresses the issue of ensuring that the stroke width is consistent
2018-05-07T09:43:27Z beach: I see.
2018-05-07T09:43:32Z loke: That's not entirely trivial
2018-05-07T09:43:39Z beach: I can believe that.
2018-05-07T09:43:40Z loke: (at least if you want it to be fast)
2018-05-07T09:44:42Z loke: This is a problem for my graphs as well, since just drawing a thick line using a rectngle will create very ugly effects near the joins.
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2018-05-07T09:45:20Z loke: The algorithm in the paper seems to do the right thing.
2018-05-07T09:45:36Z beach: OK, good.  Keep reading, then!!! :)
2018-05-07T09:46:39Z loke: I am, but even though I do understand a bit of sthis stuff (having done grasterised graphics effects since the 80's) but I really would like to be able to leverage existing libraries. :-)
2018-05-07T09:47:13Z beach: I fully understand.
2018-05-07T09:47:51Z loke: beach: I'd really love it if someone else could implement this thing. :-)
2018-05-07T09:48:17Z DemolitionMan: beach: solved!
2018-05-07T09:49:23Z beach: loke: You may be out of luck.
2018-05-07T09:57:35Z beach: DemolitionMan: Congratulations.
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2018-05-07T09:57:48Z DemolitionMan: beach: not ar all
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2018-05-07T09:58:52Z DemolitionMan: beach: not at all, only an half joy due to poor style of my programs
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2018-05-07T10:00:21Z beach: DemolitionMan: The purpose was not to give you a hard time, but to give you a chance to improve.
2018-05-07T10:00:56Z DemolitionMan: beach: this wasn't a complain, I know, I know
2018-05-07T10:01:51Z DemolitionMan: beach: anyway, a lot of people that wrote common lisp code for packages (even in quicklisp repository) are worse than me
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2018-05-07T10:03:16Z beach: DemolitionMan: Sure, that is entirely possible.  But that's no excuse to rest on your laurels.
2018-05-07T10:03:50Z DemolitionMan: beach: yes, definitely - the problem is the time
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2018-05-07T10:04:22Z DemolitionMan: beach: you know, programs have to be ready before specifications, most of the times :)
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2018-05-07T10:05:43Z DemolitionMan: beach: having more time, it would be nice to talk with you about the code I posted... Seriously
2018-05-07T10:07:30Z beach: DemolitionMan: Whenever you want (or nearly so).
2018-05-07T10:07:37Z DemolitionMan: beach: ok
2018-05-07T10:08:42Z DemolitionMan: beach: do you think design patterns are useful? Can you suggest a common lisp book on patterns?
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2018-05-07T10:09:01Z beach: I am unaware of such a book.
2018-05-07T10:09:10Z DemolitionMan: ok
2018-05-07T10:09:23Z DemolitionMan: aren't them a sort of "standard"
2018-05-07T10:09:24Z DemolitionMan: ?
2018-05-07T10:10:45Z jdz: DemolitionMan: this might be relevant: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf
2018-05-07T10:11:37Z LdBeth: Any recommendations on plain text typesetting tools?
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2018-05-07T10:11:48Z schjetne: Maybe if there was a need to rapidly on-board a large number of Common Lisp developers there would be a market for such a book.
2018-05-07T10:12:56Z DemolitionMan: jdz: thanks!
2018-05-07T10:14:25Z DemolitionMan: jdz: are design patterns more suited for such programming languages that lacks some features?
2018-05-07T10:14:57Z DemolitionMan: jdz: like higher order functions?
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2018-05-07T10:17:29Z LdBeth: I can’t tell a few “modern” programming languages that doesn’t support higher old functions yet.
2018-05-07T10:17:52Z DemolitionMan: c
2018-05-07T10:18:53Z LdBeth: You have C++
2018-05-07T10:19:01Z DemolitionMan: which is not c
2018-05-07T10:19:15Z LdBeth: Which is usually considered as successor of C
2018-05-07T10:19:29Z aeth: tell that to Linus
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2018-05-07T10:21:00Z DemolitionMan: LdBeth: c++ is more than a monster of its own than a successor
2018-05-07T10:21:04Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp as a "programmable programming language" is a language to *write* programming languages. Therefore Common Lisp *has* no design patterns, instead you *write* design patterns with it. What kind of these design patterns that may be is *your* choice. That's a major difference to other programming languages.
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2018-05-07T10:21:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: > Any recommendations on plain text typesetting tools?
2018-05-07T10:21:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: TeX?
2018-05-07T10:21:55Z theemacsshibe[m]: Markdown? Restructured Text?
2018-05-07T10:22:27Z edgar-rft: cl:format
2018-05-07T10:22:31Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: I just wonder if I can have something other than troff
2018-05-07T10:22:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: edgar-rft makes a good point
2018-05-07T10:22:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'd go for TeX then.
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2018-05-07T10:23:16Z LdBeth: TeX doesn’t make plain text outputs
2018-05-07T10:23:34Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh, I see.
2018-05-07T10:23:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: cl:format doesn't sound too bad then.
2018-05-07T10:23:56Z shrdlu68: "c++ is to C as lung cancer is to lung" - from the Unix-haters handbook.
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2018-05-07T10:24:19Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: ehehe
2018-05-07T10:24:37Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: are you still involved with colored spheres, cones, cubes and so on?
2018-05-07T10:24:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: Rust is to C as JavaScript is to Java.
2018-05-07T10:25:43Z shrdlu68: DemolitionMan: I just picked the name coz I like that era of AI. Shoulda gone with LogicTheorist instead.
2018-05-07T10:26:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: Actually no, Java is already pretty bad.
2018-05-07T10:26:08Z LdBeth: Well, then, I admit C++ sucks and don’t want to spend much time talk about it. And it might be my fault to bring that into discussion since I had some sort of foreseeing the result.
2018-05-07T10:26:10Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: :) nice
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2018-05-07T10:26:45Z DemolitionMan: LdBeth: I programmed c++ for a long time :) don't worry
2018-05-07T10:26:49Z theemacsshibe[m] makes an AbstractLanguageComparisonJokeFactory
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2018-05-07T10:27:21Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: you mean the myAbstractLanguageComparisonJokeFactory
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2018-05-07T10:27:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: Of course. How could I forget?
2018-05-07T10:28:09Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: why do they use "my" on everything?
2018-05-07T10:28:40Z DemolitionMan: is that a sort of fetishism?
2018-05-07T10:28:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm gonna port that and make a Joke<Comparison<ProgrammingLanguage>> iterator now.
2018-05-07T10:28:50Z LdBeth: Both Java and JS are heavily inspired by lisp
2018-05-07T10:28:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: Cause the default implementation sucks probably.
2018-05-07T10:29:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: That doesn't mean they can't be bad.
2018-05-07T10:29:30Z LdBeth: And Lisp is not that perfect
2018-05-07T10:29:38Z shrdlu68: Blasphemy!
2018-05-07T10:29:44Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: fetishist!
2018-05-07T10:29:56Z LdBeth: GG
2018-05-07T10:30:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: Who's got more brackets now, DemolitionMan?
2018-05-07T10:31:03Z DemolitionMan: as doctor who's archenemies should say: "Do not blaspheme!"
2018-05-07T10:31:27Z DemolitionMan: sorry
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2018-05-07T10:31:32Z LdBeth: We can definitely change brackets into, emm, something like two lambda symbols in CL
2018-05-07T10:31:34Z DemolitionMan: as doctor who's archenemies should say: "Do not swear!"
2018-05-07T10:31:58Z theemacsshibe[m]: A friend made Ñ-expressions.
2018-05-07T10:32:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: ( is &, ) is #
2018-05-07T10:32:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: & and \ come to think of it
2018-05-07T10:32:35Z LdBeth: あ-expressions
2018-05-07T10:32:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: Stupid markdown. & and *
2018-05-07T10:32:50Z theemacsshibe[m]: =ω=expressions
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2018-05-07T10:33:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: The less bad Emojiscript.
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2018-05-07T10:37:53Z flip214: no need for all that. ASCII plus unicode has, what, about 20 kinds of parenthesis pairs? <> () [] {} «» ... enough to differentiate between LET and LAMBDA and PROGN and IF and COND and ...
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2018-05-07T10:52:08Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm gonna write some Rust. Here goes.
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2018-05-07T10:55:04Z edgar-rft: theemacsshibe[m], you could write some rust-converter in CL
2018-05-07T10:56:55Z theemacsshibe[m] sent a long message: theemacsshibe[m]_2018-05-07_10:56:54.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/jAkiWhpfZkDEgOaJTDLugnsw>
2018-05-07T10:57:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: My God, what have I done?
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2018-05-07T10:57:24Z theemacsshibe[m] waits for her payrise
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2018-05-07T10:59:16Z jackdaniel: please skip the offtopic (or move it to ##lisp which is better suited for lisp-in-spirit discussions)
2018-05-07T10:59:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm done with the joke. Sorry.
2018-05-07T10:59:57Z jackdaniel: sure, thanks
2018-05-07T11:00:17Z theemacsshibe[m] walks off the #lisp Bad Joke Night stage and sits back down blushing
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2018-05-07T11:01:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: How do implementations of CL make their hash-tables? Binary trees seem like a simple solution but I'm sure there's more magic in it.
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2018-05-07T11:03:42Z theemacsshibe[m]: I can't see much about IRC operators and stuff on Matrix, so what do you do around here jackdaniel? Just curious.
2018-05-07T11:04:05Z jackdaniel: it varies. I suspect ABCL uses whatever Java provides, SBCL has implementation written in Common Lisp, ECL has implementation written in C
2018-05-07T11:04:13Z jackdaniel: I don't know what Matrix is in this context
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2018-05-07T11:04:47Z jackdaniel: I'm CL programmer and I hang with kindred spirits
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2018-05-07T11:05:39Z jackdaniel: if you wonder whenever I'm channel operator it happens that I am (though I think I've never used the privilige)
2018-05-07T11:05:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh um, matrix is like an overengineered IRC clone
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2018-05-07T11:07:24Z jackdaniel: here is HT implementation used in ECL: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/c/hash.d
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2018-05-07T11:07:46Z jackdaniel: C code
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2018-05-07T11:15:02Z foojin: theemacsshibe[m]: Is there a bot which composes these "sent a long message" things?
2018-05-07T11:15:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: Probably anything more than the IRC limit is changed by the bridge.
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2018-05-07T11:16:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: Does it make some kind of link to the comment? Never been on the receiving end of one.
2018-05-07T11:16:52Z foojin: At least it's not a link to an empty page with a huge wad of minified JS. Even curl just prints out the contents.
2018-05-07T11:17:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: True.
2018-05-07T11:17:53Z foojin: It's visible to everyone on the channel, right above your "My God, what have I done?" message.
2018-05-07T11:18:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: I figured that much.
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2018-05-07T11:18:26Z jackdaniel: khm, still offtopic (sorry for repeating myself :)
2018-05-07T11:18:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm taking any meta discussion to lispcafe before ---- well, that.
2018-05-07T11:19:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: Please, repeat as much as you like. I'll remember some day. :p
2018-05-07T11:19:24Z foojin: theemacsshibe[m]: Ah, so there's a service that converts you messages made through that Matrix thing and posts them here?
2018-05-07T11:19:31Z foojin: *your
2018-05-07T11:20:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: Yes.
2018-05-07T11:20:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: I use it for a lot of channels. I don't want to feel the wrath of jack, so I'd rather talk about matrix some other place.
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2018-05-07T11:22:12Z foojin: Ok, I won't inquire further then. There are usually bots which do things like these, so that was my first guess.
2018-05-07T11:22:49Z pjb: DemolitionMan: design pattern are macros.  Lisp calls them macros.  cf. https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Object-Oriented-Programming
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2018-05-07T11:24:33Z pjb: DemolitionMan: said otherwise, lisp has had design patterns (done correctly) since 1964, while people working with other programming languages had to work 30 years (with teachers, students, "research", PhD, books, editors, and so on, a whole cottage industry, working to archieve… nothing (well, something that was known since 1964, good work guys!)).
2018-05-07T11:25:15Z pjb: DemolitionMan: of course, in our capitalistic system, all this increases the GDP, so everybody is happy.  In the meantime, we're still waitting on our flying "cars", and Moon and Mars bases…
2018-05-07T11:26:07Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: I notice that org-mode has better -to-pdf results (since it goes thru LaTeX, the output is nicer).
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2018-05-07T11:27:01Z schweers: pjb, theemacsshibe[m]: Org Mode can export to all sorts of formats.
2018-05-07T11:27:07Z DemolitionMan: pjb: :)
2018-05-07T11:27:08Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: I like reStructuredText, but when you write it to generate PDF, you have to add a lot of not-nice "tagging".  So I think I'm converting to org-mode.
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2018-05-07T11:29:17Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: myThing comes from perl (AFAICS). It's a convention used to denote local variables.
2018-05-07T11:29:41Z p_l: I have seen mThing in Java
2018-05-07T11:29:54Z p_l: for class member private variables
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2018-05-07T11:30:19Z pjb: yes, this comes from C++, where variable members are often prefix with m (or sometimes _).
2018-05-07T11:31:17Z pjb: This is to avoid shadowing the members by parameters foo(int p){ _p=p; } instead of this->p=p;
2018-05-07T11:31:53Z foojin: BTW does learning design patterns give one a sort of "architectural insight" into software design?
2018-05-07T11:31:54Z flip214: schweers: pjb: pandoc can convert RST <=> org <=> Markdown etc., good enough for most uses.
2018-05-07T11:32:02Z schweers: is there a proper (i.e. academic) term for this kind of scoping?
2018-05-07T11:32:11Z foojin: I often find myself unable to come up with ways everything should fit together, even though I'm quite capable of writing and refactoring functions. Maybe that's one of the reasons I'm still stuck with fixing someone else's code.
2018-05-07T11:32:37Z flip214: foojin: did you ever solve some middle-sized problem from start to end?
2018-05-07T11:32:48Z flip214: perhaps you're just lacking overview?
2018-05-07T11:32:55Z dim: pjb: yeah, thanks to pandoc I'm using Markdown for my PDF needs nowadays
2018-05-07T11:33:24Z pjb: foojin: yes, reading the GoF book is not a bad idea.  But as lisper, take it as a good exercise to write the macros corresponding to each design pattern.
2018-05-07T11:33:38Z schweers: to clarify, I mean the sort of scoping that OO languages often introduce by introducing member variables into the scope of methods.  Now that I’ve written this, I realize that this is nothing more than lexical scope.  So ignore my question ;)
2018-05-07T11:33:43Z pjb: dim: also, my point here is that org-mode doesn't need any external too :-)
2018-05-07T11:35:12Z pjb: schweers: well this is a good question. In CL it's solved with with-slots and with-accessors.  It doesn't need to be automatic.  So it probably has a name.
2018-05-07T11:36:18Z schweers: well it is basically lexical scope, but then again, OO languages often have ways to clarify which foo is meant.  If `foo' is a member variable, then foo may refer to something different than this.foo.  or this.that.something_other.foo
2018-05-07T11:36:32Z foojin: schweers: IMO in languages like Python, where you can just add members at runtime and have them visible, lexical scoping doesn't really cut it. I think it just uses a dict there.
2018-05-07T11:36:59Z schweers: python uses a dict, but that is supposedly(?) subject to change.
2018-05-07T11:38:24Z p_l: does python actually have a proper lexical scope?
2018-05-07T11:38:30Z foojin: flip214: I tried to do that several times but it always ends up with me finding the result too ugly to improve. Lisp macros seem like a nice solution to my problems, so I'll definitely try to write something with it.
2018-05-07T11:38:43Z schweers: p_l: as far as I know, it does, but didn’t always have it
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2018-05-07T11:39:05Z p_l always got the feel that for supposedly hating monkey patching, python is most full of it
2018-05-07T11:39:13Z foojin: schweers: The point is, it's neither lexical, nor dynamical.
2018-05-07T11:39:18Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-05-07T11:39:46Z foojin: *dynamic
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: ↻foo↺ ⇽foo⇾ ⎏foo⎐ ⟃foo⟄ ⦦foo⦧ ⦨foo⦩ ⫍foo⫎ there are a lot of left/right pairs in unicode:
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: "()[]{}«»ʿʾ˂˃˓˒˱˲̘̙̜̹͔͕͑͗܆܇᷾͐‘’“”‹›⁅⁆⁌⁍⁽⁾₍₎⃭⃬⃮⃯⃐⃑⃖⃗←→↚↛↜↝↞↠↢↣↤↦↩↪↫↬↰↱↲↳↼⇀↽⇁↿↾⇃⇂⇇⇉⇍⇏⇐⇒⇚⇛⇜⇝⇠⇢⇤⇥⇦⇨⇷⇸⇺⇻⇽⇾⊣⊢⋉⋊⋋⋌⌈⌉⌊⌋⌍⌌⌏⌎⌜⌝⌞⌟〈〉⌫⌦⍅⍆⍇⍈⎛⎞⎜⎟⎝⎠⎡⎤⎢⎥⎣⎦⎧⎫⎨⎬⎩⎭⎸⎹⏋⎾⏌⎿┐┌┑┍┒â
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: ⿸⿹〈〉《》「」『』【】〔〕〖〗〘〙〚〛㊧㊨﴾﴿︠︡︢︣︤︥︵︶︷︸︹︺︻︼︽︾︿﹀﹁﹂﹃﹄﹇﹈﹙﹚﹛﹜﹝﹞（）［］｛｝｟｠｢｣￩￫"
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2018-05-07T11:41:43Z pjb: It's CL-relevant ;-)  in clisp: (coerce (mapcan (lambda (ch) (let* ((name (char-name ch))(pos  (search "LEFT" name)) (right (concatenate 'string (subseq name 0 pos) "RIGHT" (subseq name (+ pos 4))))) (when (name-char right) (list ch (name-char right))))) (lschar :name "LEFT")) 'string)
2018-05-07T11:42:26Z pjb: It's funny how some fonts don't have symetrical glyphs. eg.: ⬱⇶
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2018-05-07T11:44:12Z edgar-rft wishes pjb back into the time of cuniform writing
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2018-05-07T11:51:22Z flip214: pjb: +1  ;)
2018-05-07T11:51:40Z flip214: thanks for the proof.
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2018-05-07T11:52:18Z flip214: and now, please do the same with UP and DOWN, so that multi-line forms like "(PROGN" and ")" can be properly framed ;)
2018-05-07T11:53:32Z pjb: flip214: notice already that there are the vertical left/right. I used them once in C programs (with compose in emacs, to substitute for {}).  ︠︡︢︣︤︥︵︶︷︸︹︺︻︼︽︾︿﹀﹁﹂﹃﹄﹇﹈
2018-05-07T11:54:01Z pjb: I mean, since a lot of C style put a single bracket on a line, using ︷ and ︸ made sense…
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2018-05-07T11:56:48Z flip214: don't you long for ⌌PROGN   (foo)⌟
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2018-05-07T11:57:43Z flip214: Or even ⏠PROGN (foo)⏡    (top|bottom TORTOISE SHELL BRACKET)
2018-05-07T11:59:06Z foojin: Given the complexity of Unicode, there should be special tools that check the source code for things like "invisible" characters.
2018-05-07T11:59:09Z foojin: It's only a matter of time before someone gets a nasty surprise past a code review.
2018-05-07T12:01:58Z pjb: foojin: you can have fun right away: https://www.voltage.com/technology/a-clever-use-for-u202e/
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2018-05-07T12:02:36Z pjb: and https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/04/faking_domain_n.html
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2018-05-07T12:05:03Z pjb: for example: https://pastebin.com/jJujcnFP
2018-05-07T12:05:43Z pjb: (eq 'innоcuous 'innocuous) --> nil
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2018-05-07T12:06:44Z foojin: pjb: People at least have bookmarks to defend against this. Someone who applies a patch sent to him doesn't.
2018-05-07T12:06:50Z foojin: Add an innocent unicode character in a comment and you even have a "reason" for using Unicode.
2018-05-07T12:07:17Z foojin: *innocent-looking
2018-05-07T12:07:41Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (s) (map 'list 'char-name (symbol-name s)))  '(innоcuous innocuous)) --> #|in clisp|# (("LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_I" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_C" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_S") ("LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_I" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O"
2018-05-07T12:07:41Z pjb: "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_C" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_S"))
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2018-05-07T12:09:12Z pjb: foojin: this is something you could write as a small extension to emacs.  Scan buffers for homographs.
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2018-05-07T12:12:39Z foojin: pjb: And try to convince people to use Unicode only in comments.
2018-05-07T12:13:16Z pjb: Not necessarily. The source can be written by russians in cyrillic, or japaneses, or chineses.
2018-05-07T12:13:29Z pjb: You just want to check for consistency.
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2018-05-07T12:17:05Z pjb: Perhaps innоcuous can be forbidden, but write-борщ should be ok.
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2018-05-07T12:24:59Z foojin: I still think that it has no place outside comments and string literals. It's only a small step from an agreed-upon programming language to an agreed-upon naming convention.
2018-05-07T12:25:14Z foojin: It boils down to "make it right" vs "make it work" in my opinion.
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2018-05-07T12:29:57Z schweers: I wonder whether russian and/or asian programmers use non-english names in programming.
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2018-05-07T12:33:47Z foojin: schweers: Of course. I tried to port an emulator written by someone like that from JS to C and found out that only clang is capable of compiling it.
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2018-05-07T12:34:09Z schweers: because of unicode names?
2018-05-07T12:34:41Z schweers: does C allow non-ascii characters outside of comments or string literals?
2018-05-07T12:34:54Z foojin: Yep. I still haven't really touched most of his code, save for operator substitutions, so it would take a while to make it build under GCC.
2018-05-07T12:35:11Z schweers: sounds fun
2018-05-07T12:35:51Z foojin: It taught me to compile with different compilers just to see the warnings produced though.
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2018-05-07T13:08:54Z pjb: schweers: even latin-based natural language writers may have difficulties mixing their language with english-based programming languages.
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2018-05-07T13:09:30Z schweers: which is why all my code has english identifiers
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2018-05-07T13:09:37Z pjb: schweers: as a French, I prefer in general using only English in my programs, to keep the consistency with the English keywords and the user identifiers.
2018-05-07T13:10:04Z schweers: same here, but german
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2018-05-07T13:10:09Z pjb: However, there are circumstances, where it would be preferable to use native language identifiers.
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2018-05-07T13:11:41Z schweers: although it can be problematic when people don’t know english well enough to give proper identifiers.  I saw a variable once, which was supposed to hold a current value (of a measurement) which was named actual_something.  In german the word „aktuell“ means „current“.
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2018-05-07T13:11:54Z schweers: so you’ve got yourself a false friend there
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2018-05-07T13:12:50Z pjb: schweers: yes, like "delicious" :-)
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2018-05-07T13:13:05Z schweers: how so?
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2018-05-07T13:13:40Z pjb: Macron said to the Austrian prime minister that his wife was delicious.  But that doesn't mean exactly the same in French and in English :-)
2018-05-07T13:13:51Z beach: Heh!
2018-05-07T13:13:54Z schweers: oops
2018-05-07T13:14:01Z schweers: what might he have intended?
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2018-05-07T13:14:24Z schweers doesn’t speak french beyond very few words.
2018-05-07T13:14:55Z pjb: https://static.ripostelaique.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/macron-le-putois.png
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2018-05-07T13:16:42Z pjb: literally, it means good, tasty.  But une "femme délicieuse" means a "delightful wife", while a "delicious wife" is more lewd.
2018-05-07T13:16:56Z schweers: ah, okay
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2018-05-07T13:17:26Z schweers: yeah, I got why it’s inappropriate to call his wife delicious.  just didn’t know what it would have meant in french
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2018-05-07T13:17:32Z schweers: thanks for sharing
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2018-05-07T13:18:56Z pjb: It wouldn't be bad, it could be excused, if it wasn't for the personality of Macron, the banksters' puppet.
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2018-05-07T13:20:11Z beach: Politicians should avoid speaking any language other than their native one.
2018-05-07T13:20:19Z beach: They sound terrible and they get it wrong.
2018-05-07T13:20:45Z schweers: they often shouldn’t even use their native language :-P
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2018-05-07T13:21:46Z phoe: beach: you just destroyed international politics. (#lispcafe)
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2018-05-07T13:22:04Z beach: Yes, off topic.  Sorry.
2018-05-07T13:25:13Z mejja: many youngsters prefer a tasty MILF..
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2018-05-07T13:49:25Z Ukari: is it possiable to get stacktrace with line information?
2018-05-07T13:50:30Z beach: Depends on your implementation.  Line information is not so great, you want position of the start and end of the expression being evaluated.
2018-05-07T13:50:50Z beach: Ukari: SLIME helps out by letting you type `v' on a stack frame.
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2018-05-07T14:01:09Z schweers: does anyone know why SLIME  sometimes indents a macro use correctly and sometimes does not?
2018-05-07T14:01:25Z beach: Example?
2018-05-07T14:01:41Z schweers: I defined a macro and used it at one point, indentation worked (oddly enough it did before I defined the macro).  Now it does not.
2018-05-07T14:01:50Z schweers: sec, pastebin
2018-05-07T14:02:12Z beach: Sounds like a package problem.
2018-05-07T14:02:18Z beach: Two different packages.
2018-05-07T14:02:37Z shka: or you are redefining macro as function
2018-05-07T14:02:42Z schweers: well, I have them in two packages, but I use the macro as (packagename::macroname arg1 body)
2018-05-07T14:02:56Z beach: is macroname exported?
2018-05-07T14:02:59Z schweers: this is my macro: https://pastebin.com/gKJY3rBv
2018-05-07T14:03:05Z schweers: no, which is why I use ::
2018-05-07T14:03:16Z beach: Oh, sorry, missed it.
2018-05-07T14:03:20Z schweers: np
2018-05-07T14:03:31Z schweers: nothing fancy, and it worked at first
2018-05-07T14:03:42Z schweers: oh, wait a second
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2018-05-07T14:04:07Z schweers: hm, I’m wondering if lispy is doing something weird
2018-05-07T14:04:18Z schweers: nope, not lispy
2018-05-07T14:05:49Z schweers: https://pastebin.com/Nq9CHQrC
2018-05-07T14:09:15Z schweers: weird.  I restarted the lisp image, same problem.  moved it to the same package and now it’s fine.
2018-05-07T14:09:33Z schweers: Which is okay in this case, as it actually belongs in the package where it is used, but still ...
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2018-05-07T14:10:11Z schweers: even works before the code is loaded, which I find weird
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2018-05-07T14:11:50Z jdz: schweers: before the code is loaded I bet indentation is based on the name (starts with "with-").
2018-05-07T14:12:15Z schweers: oh right, thanks
2018-05-07T14:12:24Z schweers: but still, why would it suddenly behave that way?
2018-05-07T14:12:50Z schweers: anyway, I was thinking it may be well known.  I guess it’s a little tricky to debug it now.
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2018-05-07T14:39:23Z Ukari: it is a good idea to use (make-symbol "name") instead of (gensym) in defmacro for a better debug experience?
2018-05-07T14:40:11Z Bike: i find it a bit confusing in the case of e.g. nested macroexpansions, where they'll have distinct symbols that look the same
2018-05-07T14:40:20Z Bike: i just pass gensym a string instead (you can do that btw)
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2018-05-07T14:42:29Z phoe: Ukari: (gensym "SOMETHING")
2018-05-07T14:42:40Z phoe: ;=> #:SOMETHING827
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2018-05-07T14:43:16Z Ukari: would it have a affect on efficiency?
2018-05-07T14:43:22Z Bike: no.
2018-05-07T14:43:33Z Ukari: like more memory used for store string
2018-05-07T14:43:37Z Bike: nope
2018-05-07T14:43:42Z Ukari: nice
2018-05-07T14:43:51Z Bike: the compiler is going to use way more memory than your puny little macro anyway
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2018-05-07T14:45:34Z shka: Ukari: with-gensyms my friend!
2018-05-07T14:47:00Z beach: I once had a student who used only one-letter variables, thinking it would take up too much memory otherwise.
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2018-05-07T14:48:46Z phoe: I once read about a Russian who defined a C macro `#define RETURN(x) return x; }` - including the closing brace, thinking all the closing brackets would take up too much hard disk space otherwise.
2018-05-07T14:49:09Z phoe: So his functions looked like `int foo() { RETURN(42)`
2018-05-07T14:49:25Z Bike: expensive ram is a hell of a drug
2018-05-07T14:49:51Z beach: phoe: Holy smoke!
2018-05-07T14:50:36Z phoe: Found it, https://stackoverflow.com/a/652945
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2018-05-07T14:50:41Z Bike: i wonder how much memory that would actually save
2018-05-07T14:50:48Z schweers: When I started programming (in C/C++), I used the built-in smaller integer types whenever I felt they would be enough.  So my code was riddled with 8 and 16 bit ints.  On the stack, no less!
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2018-05-07T14:50:54Z Bike: if you had a thousand functions, i guess like 2 KB
2018-05-07T14:50:59Z schweers: Err, I meant, a friend of mine did this ;)
2018-05-07T14:51:31Z Bike: the pushups thing might not be bad tho
2018-05-07T14:51:56Z phoe: Bike: I need to start doing this whenever I end up in the debugger.
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2018-05-07T14:53:55Z syncriix: Hey guys, am I alowed to ask for a small favor here?
2018-05-07T14:54:06Z phoe: syncriix: ask away
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2018-05-07T14:54:29Z phoe: the worst kind of answer you can get for asking is "no", no matter the question
2018-05-07T14:54:53Z syncriix: I have a lot of tasks to sort in emacs, like a few thousand... and I want to sort them by TODO state, Priority and alphabetic order
2018-05-07T14:55:06Z syncriix: I have found a working script on stackexchange
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2018-05-07T14:55:32Z phoe: syncriix: #emacs might be able to help you better if you're doing org-mode
2018-05-07T14:55:47Z schweers: isn’t there even a dedicated org mode channel?
2018-05-07T14:55:50Z phoe: elisp /= Common Lisp, and this topic is about the latter
2018-05-07T14:55:52Z phoe: schweers: I am not sure
2018-05-07T14:55:56Z beach: syncriix: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-05-07T14:56:01Z schweers: neither am I
2018-05-07T14:56:02Z phoe: oooh, #org-mode
2018-05-07T14:56:03Z phoe: TIL
2018-05-07T14:56:12Z syncriix: Aww, there goes my programming knowledge!
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2018-05-07T14:56:26Z phoe: syncriix: #org-mode is something I just found that should be able to help you
2018-05-07T14:56:27Z syncriix: I will hop over to the org channel then, thankyou guys!
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2018-05-07T15:32:12Z jeosol: bigos?
2018-05-07T15:32:20Z jeosol: morning guys
2018-05-07T15:32:52Z beach: Hello jeosol.
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2018-05-07T15:33:17Z jeosol: beach, I am doing ok. Finally was able to submit my challenge abstract, waiting for reply.
2018-05-07T15:33:30Z beach: Great.
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2018-05-07T15:33:46Z jeosol: you guys were great help in resolving a bunch of issues, code runs steady, clean, with a lot less problems.
2018-05-07T15:35:14Z jeosol: This question is probably for the web channel if there is one. I am trying to now add a front end interface. I delved into angular 4 last few days and I almost lost my mind with the unnecessary complexity. I would prefer to stay in lisp
2018-05-07T15:35:46Z jeosol: Anyone here using Shinmera's radiance
2018-05-07T15:37:37Z phoe: jeosol: I bet #shirakumo has some users
2018-05-07T15:37:47Z phoe: perhaps also Shinmera himself
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2018-05-07T15:40:54Z jeosol: phoe: thanks
2018-05-07T15:41:12Z jeosol: I will head there.
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2018-05-07T16:38:14Z Ukari: `(funcall (lambda () (or (values-list (list)) "hi")))` and `(funcall (lambda () (values-list (or (list) (list "hi")))))`
2018-05-07T16:38:37Z Ukari: is there something or that could return multiple values
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2018-05-07T16:39:21Z Ukari: or only get the first value
2018-05-07T16:40:55Z beach: I have no idea what that code is supposed to do.
2018-05-07T16:41:10Z beach: (LIST) evaluates to NIL.
2018-05-07T16:41:28Z beach: (values-list NIL) returns no values.
2018-05-07T16:41:30Z phoe: Ukari: (values 1 2 3)
2018-05-07T16:41:54Z beach: But since it is in a position of evaluation, it is the same as NIL.
2018-05-07T16:42:04Z beach: Now, (OR NIL ...) is the same as ...
2018-05-07T16:42:34Z beach: So (or (values-list (list)) "hi") is the same as "hi".
2018-05-07T16:43:03Z beach: So you have (funcall (lambda () "hi")) which returns "hi".
2018-05-07T16:43:18Z Ukari: i ask this because the condition that (funcall (lambda () (values))) returns no value while (funcall (lambda () )) returns a NIL
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2018-05-07T16:44:24Z beach: So you just want an example of something similar that would return more than one value?
2018-05-07T16:44:26Z beach: Is that it?
2018-05-07T16:44:32Z Ukari: so i want to  make  (funcall (lambda () (values))) also returns a "NIL" when I defstruct a NIL-struct instead of NIL
2018-05-07T16:44:58Z Bike: defstruct...?
2018-05-07T16:45:00Z beach: I think it is too late in the day for me to even understands what that means.
2018-05-07T16:45:15Z Bike: it's too middle of the day to understand what it means
2018-05-07T16:45:16Z beach goes to have dinner instead of trying to understand.
2018-05-07T16:45:21Z beach: heh.
2018-05-07T16:49:06Z phoe: Ukari: you're speaking nonsense
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2018-05-07T16:56:40Z Ukari: https://gist.github.com/ukari/6c3f012309d99bdd1e3c622dbd40f6f2
2018-05-07T16:57:49Z Ukari: just simply use values could not handle this condition
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2018-05-07T17:00:03Z Bike: what are you actually trying to accomplish here
2018-05-07T17:00:05Z Bike: this is a mess
2018-05-07T17:00:27Z Bike: what results do you expect? what do you get? something
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2018-05-07T17:01:07Z Ukari: the result of (test-wanna-1) is what i want to get
2018-05-07T17:01:58Z Ukari: test-bug-1 don't return a nil-ship, it returns no value
2018-05-07T17:02:58Z foojin: Ukari: So you want a list with a single ship when an empty one is returned?
2018-05-07T17:03:07Z Ukari: yes!
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2018-05-07T17:05:18Z foojin: Ukari: Do you have a special ship just for this? With nothing to map over, there's no way to create something sensible for a more complex definition of nil-ship.
2018-05-07T17:06:10Z foojin: Ukari: You just happen to have something which always turns out the same when constructed.
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2018-05-07T17:12:47Z foojin: Ukari: So I recommend describing the actual problem instead of oversimplifying to the point of the resulting example becoming useless even under its own constraints.
2018-05-07T17:13:56Z Ukari: it is my fault, i don't like the code style in test-wanna-1 due to it need to do one more step to make a single element list. so i use (or (values may-nil) single) instead and find that it don't return multiple values anymore in this code style
2018-05-07T17:14:30Z Ukari: and i want to find sth like `or` but which could returns multiple values
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2018-05-07T17:18:03Z foojin: brb
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2018-05-07T17:32:06Z shka_: yo  guys
2018-05-07T17:32:19Z shka_: is there some neat little package to handle lambda lists?
2018-05-07T17:33:02Z Bike: "handle"?
2018-05-07T17:33:31Z shka_: i want function that will, after accepting full lambda list return me list of optional arguments, key arguments, aux arguments…
2018-05-07T17:33:32Z foojin: Ukari: First of all, why do you even bother with returning values if you end up collecting them in a list anyways?
2018-05-07T17:33:34Z shka_: basic stuff
2018-05-07T17:34:11Z PuercoPop: shka_: there is parse-lambda-list in alexandria
2018-05-07T17:34:25Z shka_: oooh, cool, let me check it
2018-05-07T17:34:50Z PuercoPop: Bike also has a library IIRC but I've never used it
2018-05-07T17:35:10Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.lambda-list
2018-05-07T17:35:10Z shka_: Bike: care to comment on that, sir?
2018-05-07T17:35:21Z Bike: don't bother with mine
2018-05-07T17:35:34Z shka_: ok
2018-05-07T17:35:55Z Ukari: i am trying to make a generator which needs to transform "return values" in generator function to "iterator objects", something like `function* a() {return 1}; a().next()` in javascript
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2018-05-07T17:39:09Z shka_: Ukari: i did something like generators, simply made syntax like clojure loop, but i save arguments in closure on recur and instead simply jumping to begin i return value
2018-05-07T17:39:29Z shka_: then next funcall have previously saved arguments
2018-05-07T17:40:08Z shka_: after a lot of tinkering this seemed like the most elegant approach
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2018-05-07T17:44:28Z shka_: PuercoPop: alexandria did the trick, thanks!
2018-05-07T17:46:30Z Ukari: shka_, (setf gen (lambda () (funcall (lambda (store) (lambda () (incf store))) -1))) (setf next (funcall gen)) (funcall next) ?
2018-05-07T17:46:43Z Ukari: is that your way
2018-05-07T17:47:28Z shka_: in spirit, yes
2018-05-07T17:48:17Z shka_: first function establishes lexical binding for inner function, inner modifies bindings and returns value
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2018-05-07T17:50:14Z shka_: i have this enclosed in object so i have richer interface, but core idea is the same
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2018-05-07T17:50:38Z shka_: anyway, in use: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/df228a268e7ab3478cbf59b71ecdaead0e3edbe1/src/api/expression-tests.lisp#L34
2018-05-07T17:50:46Z foojin: Ukari: That doesn't look like what you can write in JS and Python (this probably can be done with macros), but if you don't care about keeping the style, it would do just fine.
2018-05-07T17:51:16Z shka_: cl-ds:xpr is such generator
2018-05-07T17:51:33Z shka_: it will walk over tree bound to data
2018-05-07T17:52:06Z shka_: stack is just stack, obviously
2018-05-07T17:52:38Z shka_: recur and send-recur are essentially keywords made to resembled recursive calls
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2018-05-07T17:53:30Z shka_: traverse will work like (map nil ...), to take just one value you can use cl-ds:consume-front
2018-05-07T17:53:59Z shka_: it is not perfect, obviously, but it works for me
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2018-05-07T17:57:21Z shka_: Ukari: any additional questions?
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2018-05-07T17:58:29Z Ukari: no
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2018-05-07T17:58:39Z shka_: ok, cool
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2018-05-07T18:48:15Z flip214: whoever had the idea for this symbol: hooray.
2018-05-07T18:48:18Z flip214: > asdf/backward-interface::*deprecated-function-style-warning-enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility-notified-p*
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2018-05-07T18:48:57Z shka_: :D
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2018-05-07T18:51:05Z edgar-rft: everybody-should-use-super-long-symbol-names-to-make-us-typing-even-more-letters
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2018-05-07T18:57:29Z dlowe: it's to punish those without the virtuousness of tab completion
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2018-05-07T19:01:19Z defunkydrummer: flip214: i prefer verbose names; and BTW deprecated-function-style-warning-enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility-notified-p is still short for Java standards, comparatively
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2018-05-07T19:02:09Z defunkydrummer: flip214: still much better than Java's InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState
2018-05-07T19:02:21Z defunkydrummer: flip214: For real. Take a look at:  https://github.com/zxlooong/jdk16045/blob/master/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState.java
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2018-05-07T19:07:47Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: an example near to this layout on McCLIM? https://i1.wp.com/qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/images/mainwindowlayout.png
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2018-05-07T19:10:46Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: use tabling in your layout
2018-05-07T19:10:52Z jackdaniel: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1619
2018-05-07T19:12:08Z jackdaniel: or, if you feel fancy, you may experiment with bbpane (black board pane) which is a "floating" layout (as in opposed to "tiling")
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2018-05-07T19:22:28Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: i am going to check
2018-05-07T19:22:55Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: wanna see the same layout on commonQt. I have found and example on the network?
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2018-05-07T19:29:25Z jackdaniel: sorry, I don't understand
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2018-05-07T19:34:45Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: see this if u have time (if commonQt installed): https://transfer.sh/dE0xc/holanombre.lisp
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2018-05-07T19:40:38Z jackdaniel: if commonQt works for you and McCLIM doesn't – go for it. I don't think there is much merit in picking wrong tools just for a sake of being lispy
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2018-05-07T19:44:29Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: actually I am trying to check both (commonQt, and McCLIM). commonQt seems quite fine for this kind of layout. I just want to invest a couple of hours and see if I could come with something similar to that with McCLIM.
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2018-05-07T20:20:53Z loginoob: What's the difference between (length (NIL)) and (length (cons NIL NIL))
2018-05-07T20:21:21Z loginoob: why the first gives error and second returns 1
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2018-05-07T20:24:16Z Josh_2: (nil) that's a function call
2018-05-07T20:24:18Z Bike: (nil) is a function call. it will try to call the function called nil.
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2018-05-07T20:24:46Z Bike: this is why you get an error that says something like "NIL is an undefined function"
2018-05-07T20:24:46Z Josh_2: (length '(nil)) is the same as (length (cons nil nil))
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2018-05-07T20:25:48Z loginoob: but NIL is also empty list and predefined in language
2018-05-07T20:26:24Z Bike: yes, and thus, not a function.
2018-05-07T20:26:26Z Bike: so you can't call it.
2018-05-07T20:26:59Z Bike: (cons nil nil) is a call to the function called CONS. (nil) is a call to the function called NIL. simple, yes?
2018-05-07T20:28:15Z loginoob: so length takes function as an argument
2018-05-07T20:29:38Z Bike: no!
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2018-05-07T20:29:49Z Bike: it takes a list as an argument.
2018-05-07T20:30:15Z Bike: (cons nil nil) calls the cons function. the cons function returns a list. that list is then passed to the length function.
2018-05-07T20:30:46Z Josh_2: Takes a sequence as an argument
2018-05-07T20:31:44Z loginoob: ok understood
2018-05-07T20:33:12Z loginoob: so anything inside a list like here (Something) will be considered a function call when not in quotes
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2018-05-07T20:35:04Z Bike: or another operation, if something is a macro or special operator. but that is the basic syntax, yes.
2018-05-07T20:35:34Z loginoob: ok, thank you.
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2018-05-07T20:42:23Z Xof: hi
2018-05-07T20:42:28Z Xof: not for very long, mind
2018-05-07T20:43:07Z dim: cool, then, hi
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2018-05-07T23:01:06Z cantor: I am getting really tired of all the downsides of Clojure, should I switch to Common Lisp? I am concerned about the enormity of the language and the situation around the build/packaging ecosystem
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2018-05-07T23:03:23Z cantor: I dismissed racket because of the GIL
2018-05-07T23:03:43Z cantor: Scheme and ilk cause of lack of traction/mature ecosystem
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2018-05-07T23:23:09Z sukaeto: cantor: you're in a channel about Common Lisp, so I imagine you'll get a very biased answer here
2018-05-07T23:23:29Z cantor: sukaeto: That's what I am hoping for :)
2018-05-07T23:23:42Z sukaeto: OK, then yes - you should switch to Common Lisp
2018-05-07T23:23:54Z cantor: i.e. people here use common lisp a lot, I want to see what they think of my concerns
2018-05-07T23:24:15Z cantor: sukaeto: reductive, doesn't address concerns elaborated post the question
2018-05-07T23:25:32Z sukaeto: a lot of us use Common Lisp professionally and are pretty happy with it, and neither the size of the language nor the tooling were deterrents for that
2018-05-07T23:25:56Z sukaeto: quicklisp makes packaging up an image pretty easy in most cases
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2018-05-07T23:26:22Z sukaeto: and as far as "language size", I've never understood what the concerns were there.
2018-05-07T23:26:57Z cantor: the C++ syndrome
2018-05-07T23:27:09Z cantor: where each programmer uses a weird subset of the language
2018-05-07T23:27:35Z cantor: Also, what companies use Common Lisp professionally? Is there a list compiled somewhere?
2018-05-07T23:28:38Z rme: RavenPack and Rigetti are currently looking for Common Lisp talent, to name two.
2018-05-07T23:29:16Z rme: But there are many more organizations looking for Clojure, I have to admit.
2018-05-07T23:30:28Z cantor: rme: I knew of Rigetti, but last time I looked they had that "internship-like" program and the regular job descriptions were out of my league
2018-05-07T23:30:34Z cantor: checking out RavenPack
2018-05-07T23:31:36Z cantor: rme: bummer, they need EU residency
2018-05-07T23:32:25Z cantor: found this https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2018-05-08T00:40:53Z ealfonso: I can't use (setf (slot-value obj sym) value), which complains that the first setf argument is not a symbol. is there a good way to get the accessor for a given slot?
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2018-05-08T00:42:20Z ealfonso: I guess I could generate the accessor's name. but not sure that is the best approach
2018-05-08T00:42:38Z Bike: what? no, that should be fine
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2018-05-08T00:43:52Z Bike: (setf (slot-value object slotname) value), that is
2018-05-08T00:44:40Z ealfonso: Bike you're right. I must have another problem with my macro
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2018-05-08T00:48:41Z ealfonso: I forgot to quote the symbol name in the 2nd arg to slot-value
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2018-05-08T01:24:40Z ealfonso: i have this ugly to-camel-case function that doesn't work because of overlapping ppcre matches: https://pastebin.com/0mjqfqDi any suggestions or should I just not use ppcre for this?
2018-05-08T01:26:04Z Bike: overlapping how?
2018-05-08T01:26:47Z Bike: you don't have kleene stars or nothing
2018-05-08T01:28:18Z Josh_2: Instead of replacing all of them all at once, couldn't you extract each match and remove the duplicates (if I'm understanding correct)
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2018-05-08T01:31:28Z ealfonso: Bike "nextPageToken" => "next-pageToken"
2018-05-08T01:32:01Z Bike: um, am i being extremely dumb? i thought this converted in the other direction.
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2018-05-08T01:32:24Z Josh_2: I thought the same
2018-05-08T01:32:37Z Josh_2: It's lack of a doc string ;)
2018-05-08T01:32:45Z Bike: that's not an overlap though. just means you need to do regex-replace-all
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2018-05-08T01:33:35Z ealfonso: sorry, "next-page-token" => "nextPage-token"
2018-05-08T01:33:47Z Bike: see previous message
2018-05-08T01:35:45Z ealfonso: Bike that's right. thanks
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2018-05-08T02:20:09Z Josh_2: THink am gonna go to the shop
2018-05-08T02:20:18Z Josh_2: am not tired at all but it's 3:20am :O'
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2018-05-08T04:50:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-08T06:52:05Z splittist: Good morning beach!
2018-05-08T06:54:45Z beach: Long time no see.  What's up?
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2018-05-08T07:34:46Z splittist: beach: the usual - overworked, underappreciated (:
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2018-05-08T08:31:15Z shka: did anybody made something like slime inspector, but in clim?
2018-05-08T08:31:28Z shka: so it is sligthly nicer to use
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2018-05-08T08:33:26Z beach: shka: Yes, there is Clouseau.
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2018-05-08T08:34:41Z shka: beach: heh, now i don't know if you are kidding or you are serious
2018-05-08T08:34:57Z shka: because Clouseau seems like legit name
2018-05-08T08:35:08Z beach: I am not joking.
2018-05-08T08:35:22Z beach: moore33 came up with the name, as I recall.
2018-05-08T08:35:37Z shka: fenomenal name
2018-05-08T08:35:48Z shka: puts smile on my face
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2018-05-08T08:38:47Z ldb: holly, so i can use a graphic inspector
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2018-05-08T08:39:04Z beach: Yes.
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2018-05-08T08:41:02Z shka: well, time to check how it works
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2018-05-08T08:43:57Z shka: heh, i forgot that i am connected to a remote machine via ssh tunnel
2018-05-08T08:48:29Z ldb: emmm, doesn't work that satisfiying
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2018-05-08T12:00:54Z trocado: Hi! Why calling elt on a list (vs nth) gives array-like performance?
2018-05-08T12:01:00Z trocado: Check this out: https://pastebin.com/TNvsW9L5
2018-05-08T12:04:11Z beach: trocado: Since you are not using the value of a call to a pure function, SBCL likely removes the call altogether.
2018-05-08T12:04:33Z beach: trocado: Benchmarks are hard to construct.
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2018-05-08T12:07:52Z shka: heh, don't call on those 148.006 cycles ;-)
2018-05-08T12:08:13Z shka: sometimes it is useful to even dissasemble
2018-05-08T12:08:34Z trocado: beach: I guess that's it! I changed "do" to "sum" in the loop and now the results are as expected.
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2018-05-08T12:16:59Z scymtym: beach: this looks like a bug in SBCL to me since ELT is supposed to signal an error for invalid indices
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2018-05-08T12:17:47Z beach: That's possible.
2018-05-08T12:17:58Z beach: I didn't look very carefully.
2018-05-08T12:20:00Z scymtym: (and reading a special variable in the inner loop of a microbenchmark can easily ruin the benchmark)
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2018-05-08T12:31:11Z Xof: "should signal an error" mandates an error only in safety 3 code
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2018-05-08T15:00:10Z shka: hey folks
2018-05-08T15:00:24Z shka: i'm looking for real examples of series package usage
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2018-05-08T15:10:33Z oleo: https://github.com/tokenrove/series/blob/master/s-doc.txt
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2018-05-08T21:18:08Z papachan: this is nice: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/commit/466284f3ab2b3a76141e83641df9487843b04d9e
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2018-05-09T04:26:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-09T05:52:29Z beach: Hmm, I wonder whether I stumbled upon something really good by having a two-word header for every general instance in SICL, thereby making it possible to have a fairly simple, concurrent garbage collector for the global heap.
2018-05-09T05:55:16Z beach: Garbage collection is a strange domain, though.  Only real code and real benchmarks can determine whether it is a good idea.
2018-05-09T05:55:51Z White_Flame: is the goal of SICL to be a functional reference implementation, or to have good performance as well?
2018-05-09T05:56:22Z beach: Performance is definitely an important goal.
2018-05-09T05:57:11Z White_Flame: well, I would suggest since you know it intimately, to go wild with GC ideas.  It's harder to explore on more mature platforms
2018-05-09T05:57:24Z pillton: beach: What do you mean by "general instance"?
2018-05-09T05:57:24Z White_Flame: and as you mention, GC is something that needs banging at
2018-05-09T05:57:46Z beach: pillton: A heap-allocate object that is not a CONS cell.
2018-05-09T05:57:47Z White_Flame: i would love to see good concurrent collector ideas
2018-05-09T05:58:30Z beach: White_Flame: Yeah, I agree with you.  So I need to finish the x86-64 backend.
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2018-05-09T06:46:39Z flip214: I'm wondering whether it might be worth the effort to have 1 or 2 per-thread generations, and then some extension like (sicl-ext:in-generation 4 (make-instance ...)) to specify long-lived allocations
2018-05-09T06:46:51Z flip214: but I guess that was already done at some point
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2018-05-09T06:57:58Z pillton: Isn't having a concurrent collector AND threads two separate decisions?
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2018-05-09T07:31:28Z beach: flip214: My bet is that it's not going to be worth the effort.
2018-05-09T07:31:45Z beach: Already, my per-thread GC is more precise than a traditional copying collector.
2018-05-09T07:32:38Z beach: flip214: In fact, you can consider it to have a very large number of generations, because the allocation order is preserved, so that objects are always sorted in order of age.
2018-05-09T07:33:18Z beach: I need to run some errands, but I'll be back later to read any remarks.
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2018-05-09T07:59:56Z beach: Hmm, no remarks.  My plan must be perfect, then. :)
2018-05-09T08:00:45Z jmercouris: absolutely!
2018-05-09T08:01:06Z jackdaniel: maybe you fall into "it's easier to pass a quantum processor design than improve a single function – co-ops doesn't understand the former so they'll have no objections" trap
2018-05-09T08:01:30Z beach: There is always that possibility.
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2018-05-09T08:01:38Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you saying?
2018-05-09T08:02:12Z beach: jmercouris: That not many people understand my design fully, so they don't know what to tell me.
2018-05-09T08:02:22Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: "maybe you fall into "it's easier to pass a quantum processor design than improve a single function – co-ops doesn't understand the former so they'll have no objections" trap"
2018-05-09T08:02:26Z beach: jmercouris: And that, of course, does NOT imply that my design is perfect.
2018-05-09T08:02:40Z beach: jackdaniel: :)
2018-05-09T08:02:44Z jmercouris: well, my comment was meant tongue in cheek
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2018-05-09T08:06:53Z jmercouris: can anyone explain to me why anyone would use this: https://github.com/objecthub/swift-lispkit#swift-lispkit?
2018-05-09T08:08:10Z jackdaniel: seems pretty obvious: to be able to use scheme with swift
2018-05-09T08:08:28Z jackdaniel: as a dynamic "scripting language"
2018-05-09T08:08:59Z jackdaniel: like when you hook lua into something C-ish
2018-05-09T08:09:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yes, that much is clear. I asked *why*, not what
2018-05-09T08:09:54Z jackdaniel: why someone would like to use scripting language which is scheme? probably because he wants scheme in his application as a scripting language ;-)
2018-05-09T08:09:58Z jmercouris: I also don't understand why in general, the scripting languages that extend systems would be in a different language than the system itself
2018-05-09T08:10:00Z jackdaniel: I don't really understand the question
2018-05-09T08:10:15Z jmercouris: that is the question, why would your extension language be a different language
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2018-05-09T08:10:23Z beach: jmercouris: I can explain that.
2018-05-09T08:10:46Z jackdaniel: well, you have swift (as a platform tool with libraries etc) and you want to use a language of your choice (in this case scheme)
2018-05-09T08:11:02Z jackdaniel: it is easier to add scheme to swift, then to rewrite whole ecosystem and convince apple to switch to your own scheme-like language
2018-05-09T08:11:09Z jackdaniel: than*
2018-05-09T08:11:40Z beach: jmercouris: People start by wanting "all the speed they can get".  That desire incorrectly leads to a decision to use a static programming language such as C++.  Then they feel the need for extensions at run-time.  But that can only be done in a very primitive way with the language they chose for the implementation.
2018-05-09T08:11:55Z beach: jmercouris: So then they need a dynamic language for "scripting".
2018-05-09T08:12:03Z jackdaniel: people often work with limitations they have (some try to break through the ceiling by writing anew big projects)
2018-05-09T08:12:33Z jmercouris: interesting answers, I don't really see the ecosystem argument so much because there are ways to do FFI
2018-05-09T08:12:41Z beach: jmercouris: Now, you have the typical situation.  Furthermore, advanced users will then start writing serious code using the scripting language.  Now you have a combination that is slow, unsafe, hard to debug, and ugly.
2018-05-09T08:12:42Z jmercouris: but the one about speed makes sense, and legacy projects as well
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2018-05-09T08:12:54Z jackdaniel: beach: I think that in this particular situation it is a limitation imposed by the platform vendor
2018-05-09T08:13:03Z beach: Sure.
2018-05-09T08:13:21Z jmercouris: thanks for the perpsectives
2018-05-09T08:13:31Z jmercouris: I've never been in the position where I've had to make a decision, so I was always wondering why
2018-05-09T08:13:39Z jmercouris: why are these people introducing some random language into their project
2018-05-09T08:13:46Z jmercouris: but, I can now see a few scenarios in which it could happen
2018-05-09T08:13:58Z jmercouris: not that I agree with it anymore, but at least I believe I understand
2018-05-09T08:14:04Z jmercouris: s/anymore/any more
2018-05-09T08:14:06Z beach: jmercouris: That's the subject of the talk I will give on Tuesday to a company in Sweden.
2018-05-09T08:14:14Z jackdaniel: sometimes you want to extend software which already exists (without rewriting it) and you don't want to use its native language
2018-05-09T08:14:25Z jmercouris: Yes, I read your slides :)
2018-05-09T08:14:28Z makomo: hello \o
2018-05-09T08:14:37Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2018-05-09T08:14:38Z jackdaniel: (because you don't like, say, Java)
2018-05-09T08:15:31Z makomo: beach: sounds like an interesting talk. i assume the slides are available somewhere? can i have a look? :-)
2018-05-09T08:15:52Z beach: Latest version: http://metamodular.com/capl.pdf
2018-05-09T08:16:14Z beach: jmercouris: Oh, right, and I fixed many thing according to your suggestions.
2018-05-09T08:16:18Z beach: Not the color scheme though.
2018-05-09T08:16:20Z jmercouris: Nice!
2018-05-09T08:16:33Z jmercouris: well, the color scheme is a question of taste anyway
2018-05-09T08:16:33Z makomo: beach: awesome, thanks
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2018-05-09T08:17:14Z beach: makomo: Sure.  I am not expensive.  As long as the travel and hotel expenses are paid for, I'll come give a talk anywhere (almost).
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2018-05-09T08:17:28Z makomo: haha :-)
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2018-05-09T08:32:39Z LdBeth: Sup
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2018-05-09T08:40:51Z jmercouris: what's the channel for new lisp users called again?
2018-05-09T08:41:11Z makomo: #clnoobs?
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2018-05-09T08:41:23Z jmercouris: right, yes
2018-05-09T08:41:25Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-05-09T08:41:35Z makomo: :-)
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2018-05-09T09:13:17Z p0a: Hello! Trying to use html5-parser, I'm not sure what to do with the tree that it returns
2018-05-09T09:13:33Z p0a: I could manually transverse it but are there any tools that let me do it?
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2018-05-09T09:14:48Z p0a: i.e. (parse-html5-fragment "<p class=\"x\">y</p>" :dom :xmls) will return (("p" (("class" "x")) "y"))
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2018-05-09T09:15:32Z _death: you can use css-selectors (more specifically css-selectors-simple-tree)
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2018-05-09T09:16:37Z p0a: oh that's nice
2018-05-09T09:17:51Z p0a: thanks
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2018-05-09T09:24:50Z p0a: _death: how do I use css-selectors? I'm having trouble figuring it out
2018-05-09T09:30:09Z p0a: I think I might be able to do this quicker by searching for the pattern myself instead of figuring out css-selectors, but who knows
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2018-05-09T09:33:50Z _death: (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5 "<a><b><p class=\"x\">y</p></b></a>"))
2018-05-09T09:34:04Z _death: what did you try
2018-05-09T09:34:12Z p0a: I tried something like that with what I had
2018-05-09T09:34:16Z p0a: but let me see if that works
2018-05-09T09:35:11Z p0a: _death: (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5-fragment "<p>hi</p>" :dom :xmls))
2018-05-09T09:35:43Z _death: you need to use the simple-tree representation, not the xmls one
2018-05-09T09:35:48Z p0a: _death: There is no applicable method for the generic function #<.. CSS-SELECTORS::%DO-QUERY (1)> etc
2018-05-09T09:35:55Z p0a: ah
2018-05-09T09:36:39Z p0a: simple-tree? is that hte default? (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5 "<p>hi</p>")) doesn't work either
2018-05-09T09:37:37Z p0a: maybe there's examples onbline
2018-05-09T09:37:43Z _death: you need to load css-selectors-simple-tree
2018-05-09T09:39:04Z p0a: _death: ah nice! you are the developer
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2018-05-09T09:39:20Z p0a: (I just noticed on github bcuz I )
2018-05-09T09:39:32Z p0a: because I searched for css-selectors-simple-tree
2018-05-09T09:40:19Z _death: yeah, I added it some time ago ;)
2018-05-09T09:41:26Z _death: you could also try plump/lquery, I think they're more actively maintained
2018-05-09T09:43:19Z p0a: those look good too! thanks
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2018-05-09T09:43:34Z p0a: I'm trying to write my own news reader
2018-05-09T09:43:58Z p0a: so that I waste less time reading the news, so that I can have more time to waste reading them
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2018-05-09T09:44:48Z p0a: so yeah this is a very important application I'm trying to code :P thanks again
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2018-05-09T09:46:18Z _death: best news is lisp news
2018-05-09T09:46:46Z _death: and if you write something in lisp, you can blog about it and make news
2018-05-09T09:47:33Z shrdlu68: News? What news? Is the war over?
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2018-05-09T09:49:50Z jmercouris: which one?
2018-05-09T09:51:42Z shrdlu68: "The war to end all wars"
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2018-05-09T09:59:16Z antoszka: Guys, kind of remember there was a direct-regex reader macro for cl-ppcre. I googled a little and found one in Hoyte's LoL, but wasn't there a quicklispable one, too?
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2018-05-09T10:00:07Z Xach: antoszka: cl-interpol maybe?
2018-05-09T10:00:14Z antoszka: let me see
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2018-05-09T10:03:25Z loke: Something that converts #/foo/ ⇒ (cl-ppcre:create-scanner "foo") ?
2018-05-09T10:03:38Z loke: Seems trivial to implement?
2018-05-09T10:03:53Z antoszka: http://edicl.github.io/cl-interpol/#regular ← yeah, that should do the job, thx Xach
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2018-05-09T10:04:22Z Xach: so trivial
2018-05-09T10:04:24Z Xach: antoszka: cool
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2018-05-09T10:38:09Z pfdietz: I distrust hacking the reader.  That's a good way to get libraries that don't play well together.
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2018-05-09T10:52:55Z jmercouris: +1 on that
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2018-05-09T10:54:22Z mercourisj: it's somehow a shared state in the interaction of packages that breaks the namespace boundary
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2018-05-09T10:57:42Z jackdaniel: named-readtables are a very good extension to mitigate the problem
2018-05-09T10:59:44Z pjb: Instead, provide functions to set up reader macros (to any character or dispatching character), and let the end-user choose what reader macro to set up.
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2018-05-09T11:59:35Z flip214: beach: sorry, I wasn't so quick. The idea mostly stems from the apache allocation framework, where you pass one or more pools for allocation around (short-lived vs. long-lived), and can (recursively) create and delete pools.
2018-05-09T11:59:58Z flip214: That is quite a nice model for programming if you're bound to something as low-level as C.
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2018-05-09T12:19:52Z White_Flame: genera had that idea, of local heaps to use
2018-05-09T12:20:06Z White_Flame: obviously erlang takes it to the extreme
2018-05-09T12:20:27Z White_Flame: but even erlang doesn't let you actively manage & swap between which heap to currently allocate in
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2018-05-09T12:21:37Z White_Flame: o fcourse, the 2 big advantages are the ability to throw away an entire RAM section quickly, and to perform local GCs.  The former is a lot easier than managing the latter
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2018-05-09T12:22:36Z White_Flame: (depending on the visibility between heaps)
2018-05-09T12:25:52Z pjb: White_Flame: in C++ you have those allocator parameters, and in Cocoa, you can also specify the NSZone class (but "Zones are deprecated and ignored by most classes that have it as a parameter.")
2018-05-09T12:26:20Z White_Flame: well, C++ doesnt' deal with a GC, so it's kind of moot
2018-05-09T12:26:30Z pjb: Really without a garbage collector to move your objects from one heap to the other, it's not really useful indeed.
2018-05-09T12:26:54Z pjb: Ideally, you would make a zone per document, but it's too hard to track all the allocations.
2018-05-09T12:26:55Z White_Flame: Amiga also had allocation type flags, but again no GC
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2018-05-09T13:18:16Z shka: clasp uses MPS (memory pool system) as well
2018-05-09T13:18:27Z shka: same idea
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2018-05-09T13:30:33Z beach: flip214: I see.  But I am willing to try my idea first.
2018-05-09T13:33:36Z White_Flame: well, your idea can expand outward to heaps taht are decoupled from threads
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2018-05-09T13:34:31Z White_Flame: it'd be nice to be forward compatible to that, instead of tightly complecting threads & heaps together early on
2018-05-09T13:35:44Z beach: Well, using per-thread heaps is a central idea, actually, because then each thread can trigger a GC without getting any other threads, nor the global GC involved.
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2018-05-09T13:38:05Z White_Flame: what's your plan for cross-thread references?
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2018-05-09T13:38:25Z beach: There won't be any.
2018-05-09T13:38:50Z White_Flame: so full-on erlang style private heaps?
2018-05-09T13:38:54Z White_Flame: with message passing?
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2018-05-09T13:38:58Z beach: Nope.
2018-05-09T13:39:21Z beach: A write barrier traps an attempt to put a reference to a local object in a shared object.
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2018-05-09T13:39:53Z beach: The local object and its transitive closure is then promoted, thereby preserving the invariant that there are no references from shared objects to local objects.
2018-05-09T13:40:07Z fe[nl]ix: ooh, clever
2018-05-09T13:40:16Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-05-09T13:40:46Z fe[nl]ix: bonus, can you do that concurrently without stopping the world ?
2018-05-09T13:40:54Z beach: Yes, I can.
2018-05-09T13:41:36Z White_Flame: so lots of inter-thread comm will still drive a lot of global gc
2018-05-09T13:41:44Z fe[nl]ix: that would be so cool
2018-05-09T13:41:50Z White_Flame: but still, would be interesting to see how it plays out
2018-05-09T13:42:08Z beach: Yeah, that's why I am saying I am willing to test it.
2018-05-09T13:42:27Z beach: If it is not working, I would like to know why.
2018-05-09T13:42:47Z White_Flame: oh, I'm sure it would work.  The question is on its performance scaling
2018-05-09T13:43:13Z beach: Sure.  I kind of included performance in "working".
2018-05-09T13:43:19Z White_Flame: heh
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2018-05-09T13:46:39Z beach: Furthermore, objects in the global heap don't move, so nothing needs to be done by the mutator threads as a result of a global collection.
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2018-05-09T14:09:49Z flip214: beach: and you should, because all I have is some papers that I've read and a few frameworks I've used, whereas you're trying new things!
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2018-05-09T14:26:25Z kolb: beach: might be worth to take a look at poly lang, they do some pretty weird concurrent GC things that might be suitable for inspiration. What you are doing sounds really cool btw!
2018-05-09T14:26:41Z kolb: s/poly/pony
2018-05-09T14:28:40Z dlowe: <3 pony
2018-05-09T14:29:01Z dlowe: "for people who think rust is too simplified"
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2018-05-09T14:39:35Z shka: hmmm
2018-05-09T14:41:10Z shka: this can be excelent, if only there is a way to build efficient synchronization channel
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2018-05-09T14:42:10Z shka: but in lisp variables often are dragged around in closures
2018-05-09T14:42:58Z shka: it is like you are supposed to move whole lexical env into separate memory pool
2018-05-09T14:43:27Z shka: beach: do you happen to have paper on this? Sounds fascinating!
2018-05-09T14:44:24Z Bike: closures usually only refer to small parts of the lexical environment
2018-05-09T14:45:37Z shka: Bike: that's true
2018-05-09T14:45:49Z shka: not counting dynamic-variables
2018-05-09T14:46:00Z Bike: those aren't part of the lexical environment anyway
2018-05-09T14:46:18Z shka: and probabbly should be in the shared pool to begin with
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2018-05-09T14:52:05Z beach: kolb: Sure, if there is documentation, I am always willing to look at it.
2018-05-09T14:53:06Z beach: shka: What I should do is to improve the description of it in the SICL specification so that it is very detailed.
2018-05-09T14:53:40Z beach: shka: Dynamic variables may be shared, yes, but the dynamic bindings are often per-thread.
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2018-05-09T14:59:42Z shka: beach: right
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2018-05-09T15:13:26Z schweers: Before I conduct any testing on this, which I’ll probably not do correctly anyway, I’ll just ask: should I expect a performance difference between a regular function and a generic function which has exactly one method?
2018-05-09T15:14:28Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-09T15:14:57Z Bike: the generic function can have methods added or removed whenever, so the compiler can't make really any assumptions about it that it can with functions.
2018-05-09T15:14:58Z schweers: should I expect a difference between having one method and more than one?
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2018-05-09T15:15:39Z beach: schweers: Not very much, no.
2018-05-09T15:15:43Z Bike: maybe a little bit. it's probably not important comparatively
2018-05-09T15:16:06Z schweers: beach, Bike: not much difference between one and more than one method?
2018-05-09T15:16:15Z beach: Right.
2018-05-09T15:16:34Z Bike: yeah.
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2018-05-09T15:17:49Z Bike: the gf has to determine what methods to use at runtime in some fashion either way.
2018-05-09T15:17:54Z schweers: I’m asking because I want to know how to properly test code in isolation.  I.e. how do I write a test for a function which uses other functions, without depending on these other functions to work properly?  I think I’d want to insert mock variants of these functions, yet I worry that this might have a penalty in production.
2018-05-09T15:18:29Z schweers: My first thought on how to do this in the first place was to no longer use DEFUN at all, but to use generic functions instead.
2018-05-09T15:18:39Z schweers: But I’m not really happy with that idea.
2018-05-09T15:18:48Z jackdaniel: using generic functions has penalty
2018-05-09T15:19:00Z beach: schweers: Why not?  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
2018-05-09T15:19:07Z jackdaniel: for instance ECL does not compile generic functions to native code at all at this point of time
2018-05-09T15:19:15Z Bike: testing a function that uses other functions without relying on those functions to work... i mean, that's a dependency
2018-05-09T15:19:27Z Bike: jackdaniel: eh? what about the method functions?
2018-05-09T15:19:36Z jackdaniel: method functions are compiled, yes
2018-05-09T15:19:47Z Bike: right, yeah ok.
2018-05-09T15:19:51Z schweers: beach: why shouldn’t I worry?  because methods are not much slower than defuns?
2018-05-09T15:19:55Z shka: don't be afraid of GF slowness
2018-05-09T15:20:09Z Bike: because they're not much slower, and... also you're testing?
2018-05-09T15:20:16Z Bike: i don't really see how that part is related, honestly.
2018-05-09T15:20:24Z shka: exactly
2018-05-09T15:20:35Z schweers: Bike: I don’t worry about the penalty during testing, I worry about the penalty in production
2018-05-09T15:21:06Z Bike: it's worth being conscious of, but it's not like it's severe enough that you should just decide never to use generic functions ever
2018-05-09T15:21:13Z beach: schweers: Generic functions are CURRENTLY SOMEWHAT slower than normal functions.  But generic function dispatch may become faster in the future, and it is also not clear that your code would depend a lot on the performance of function calls, as opposed to of what the functions actually do.
2018-05-09T15:21:15Z jackdaniel: schweers: you may always create macro define-function which expands to a generic function or normal function (depends on some compilation-time parameter)
2018-05-09T15:21:15Z shka: basicly GF expected speed is not that bad at all, it is just very dependent on cache and stuff
2018-05-09T15:21:20Z schweers: I don’t mock dependencies right now, I was just thinking about whether or not it’s a good idea to do so.
2018-05-09T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: of course if you'll use clos heavily, it won't be possible to map it
2018-05-09T15:21:35Z jackdaniel: I'm talking about simple scenarios
2018-05-09T15:21:55Z pjb: Methods are not slow, when dispatching is implemented with a cache.  In the case of Objective-C, a message sending is asymptotically 2 function calls.  I would expect the generic functions to be not much slower. (I'd say 3 function calls at most).
2018-05-09T15:22:33Z shka: yup
2018-05-09T15:22:43Z schweers: I hardly use CLOS at the moment
2018-05-09T15:22:53Z beach: schweers: Sorry to hear that.
2018-05-09T15:22:55Z Bike: it's like how optimization usually goes, where it makes sense to understand the differences in timing deeply, but programmers tend to simplify it to "X is slow" so they can program faster
2018-05-09T15:23:06Z schweers: beach: about what?  not really using CLOS?
2018-05-09T15:23:26Z beach: Yes.
2018-05-09T15:23:29Z schweers: Bike: I didn’t want to fall into this trap, which is why I am asking ;)
2018-05-09T15:23:38Z schweers: Instead of just assuming
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2018-05-09T15:23:44Z pjb: a quick benchmark in ccl repl gives a ratio of less than 2.
2018-05-09T15:23:46Z Bike: yep, good work
2018-05-09T15:23:50Z shka: schweers: CLOS is both useful tool and excelent example of software engineering
2018-05-09T15:24:16Z shka: it is worth learning for both reasons :)
2018-05-09T15:24:22Z pjb: You may also want to perform a comparison generic function vs. function+typecase.
2018-05-09T15:24:24Z schweers: beach: I’m really glad to have CLOS and all it entails at my disposal, but to be honest, I really don’t need it in most places.  At least at the moment.
2018-05-09T15:24:28Z Bike: This is why I tried to start with what I think could cause real slowness, the inability of the compiler to work with GFs
2018-05-09T15:24:42Z Bike: dispatch itself is going to be somewhere between fast and fast enough almost all of the time
2018-05-09T15:25:30Z schweers: But do you folks use gfs for everything?  i.e. not ever using defun any more?
2018-05-09T15:25:44Z Bike: nah.
2018-05-09T15:26:12Z beach: schweers: No, not for everything.
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2018-05-09T15:26:18Z jackdaniel: using CLOS everywhere does not make much sense
2018-05-09T15:27:16Z Bike: they're good when you want to allow extensions and redefinition later very easily, and/or when you have something that needs to work differently on its arguments depending on its classes.
2018-05-09T15:27:18Z Bike: i'd say.
2018-05-09T15:27:19Z jackdaniel: when I write software I usually start with functions and objects. when I need more, I simply promote function to generic function and benefit from CLOS
2018-05-09T15:27:57Z jackdaniel: by objects I mean hash tables and such
2018-05-09T15:28:24Z jackdaniel: and they also with time get sometimes promoted to class instances
2018-05-09T15:28:29Z schweers: jackdaniel: you mean you use classes instead of hashtables?
2018-05-09T15:29:01Z jackdaniel: no, I mean: I start with defun and make-hash-table
2018-05-09T15:29:11Z jackdaniel: but when I need more extensibility and/or control
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2018-05-09T15:29:38Z jackdaniel: functions become generic functions and hash tables become slots in class instances
2018-05-09T15:30:18Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, when you think about a specification for your software (you design it), arranging it around protocols makes more sense
2018-05-09T15:30:28Z jackdaniel: then you could start with CLOS from the very beginning
2018-05-09T15:30:29Z beach: GAH, can we please keep the terminology straight.
2018-05-09T15:30:40Z beach: You can't NOT use CLOS.
2018-05-09T15:30:53Z beach: A hash table is a class instance (of the class HASH-TABLE).
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2018-05-09T15:31:44Z jmercouris: almost never does a project have an architecture in the beginning that resembles the final architecture
2018-05-09T15:31:50Z jmercouris: therefore, I think jackdaniel's approach is a good one
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2018-05-09T15:32:18Z jmercouris: let the software naturally grow, as the need arises for more flexibility, manipulation, specificity, whatever ,then introduce custom classes
2018-05-09T15:32:21Z jackdaniel: beach: I don't know how to phrase the difference clearly if we insist of having terminology technically straight
2018-05-09T15:32:54Z beach: jackdaniel: Use STANDARD-OBJECT and STANDARD-CLASS when you want to refer to those.
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2018-05-09T15:35:05Z jackdaniel: I don't think it would be clear to the person I talk to (it doesn't seem clear when I try to imagine how the sentence would look like). but let's drop it, I'm getting back to other tasks
2018-05-09T15:36:18Z beach: "ordinary functions become generic functions and hash tables become slots of standard objects".
2018-05-09T15:36:57Z schweers: Anyway, thanks for the input.  I’m off for a long weekend \o/
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2018-05-09T15:37:40Z beach: Take care.
2018-05-09T15:37:49Z schweers: Thanks, you too.
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2018-05-09T16:11:02Z jcowan: I'm wondering if anyone has implemented Beta-style methods for CL (it should be possible with a MOP)
2018-05-09T16:11:29Z beach: What are "Beta-style methods"?
2018-05-09T16:11:44Z jcowan: the least-specific method is called, and then call-next-method invokes the next least-specific method, and so on
2018-05-09T16:11:56Z jcowan: (Beta is a programming language that works like this)
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2018-05-09T16:12:16Z beach: Oh.
2018-05-09T16:12:39Z jcowan: the idea is that more general methods control when and how specialization is done by subordinate methods, rather than subordinate methods deciding when and how to invoke superior methods
2018-05-09T16:12:41Z beach: You can already do that with some of the existing method combinations.
2018-05-09T16:13:18Z jmercouris: jcowan: that's really cool
2018-05-09T16:13:27Z jmercouris: I wonder if you could build a new dispach on-top of CL to do that
2018-05-09T16:13:30Z jcowan: ah, I see, :most-specific-last
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2018-05-09T16:14:34Z jcowan: but it is not applicable to standard method combination
2018-05-09T16:14:43Z beach: Correct.
2018-05-09T16:15:05Z beach: So you would need to define a custom method combination.
2018-05-09T16:15:16Z jcowan nods
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2018-05-09T16:18:32Z jcowan: https://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/oopsla04-gff.pdf <-- shows how to do standard ("java") and reversed ("beta") method combination on a per-method basis
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2018-05-09T16:21:08Z jmercouris: beach: do you teach in French?
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2018-05-09T16:31:02Z beach: jmercouris: Usually.  Sometimes in English.
2018-05-09T16:31:05Z beach: jmercouris: Why?
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2018-05-09T16:35:09Z comborico1611: Is there something wrong with Portacle on Ubuntu 18, or more specifically Kubuntu 18?
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2018-05-09T16:35:50Z beach: comborico1611: You need to ask Shinmera.
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2018-05-09T16:46:12Z comborico1611: beach: Thanks!
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2018-05-09T16:47:40Z beach: comborico1611: Sure.  I am afraid he is not here right now, but he has his own channel.  I can't remember the name though.
2018-05-09T16:48:07Z sjl: #shirakumo
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2018-05-09T16:48:15Z beach: Thanks.
2018-05-09T16:49:50Z comborico1611: Thanks!
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2018-05-09T16:59:18Z jmercouris: beach: just wondering because your research papers are always in english
2018-05-09T17:00:35Z Bike: academia's pretty anglophone
2018-05-09T17:00:45Z Bike: go back a few years and it'll be french or german, and then earlier latin
2018-05-09T17:00:51Z Bike: depends on the field too
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2018-05-09T17:34:33Z _death: jcowan: Pascal Costanza has implemented a beta method combination
2018-05-09T17:34:42Z jcowan: neato.  Pointer?
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2018-05-09T17:35:28Z _death: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/60353ea473b7493e
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2018-05-09T18:46:47Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-09T19:37:21Z defunkydrummer: minion: memo for rme: hey, using CCL for the first time with my project. excellent implementation, keep up the good work!
2018-05-09T19:37:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rme when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-05-09T19:41:56Z rme: defunkydrummer: Glad to hear it. Thank you.
2018-05-09T19:41:56Z minion: rme, memo from defunkydrummer: hey, using CCL for the first time with my project. excellent implementation, keep up the good work!
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2018-05-09T19:43:59Z fe[nl]ix: rme: can you remove the slash from the lisp-implementation-version ? it breaks ASDF
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2018-05-09T19:46:22Z fe[nl]ix: rme: also it's a bit redundant to have "1.11.5/v1.11.5-7-gb03cb8eecf28" in there
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2018-05-09T19:49:27Z Xach: asdf had it comin'
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2018-05-09T19:53:22Z fe[nl]ix: :D
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2018-05-09T20:15:24Z rme: Hm.  I wanted to have a version and also show version control information (git describe output, in this case).
2018-05-09T20:15:28Z rme: What is ASDF's problem?
2018-05-09T20:16:11Z rme: In this case only, I mean. I'm not inviting a general critique.
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2018-05-09T20:23:38Z asdfgh: Are there any advantages to dynamic typing over static typing besides macrology (which I think has been fixed with the "Type Systems As Macros" paper)?
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2018-05-09T20:31:18Z akkad: ccl is pretty damn nice
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2018-05-09T20:46:25Z _death: asdfgh: may want to read http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf
2018-05-09T20:48:24Z fe[nl]ix: rme: https://pastebin.ca/4024132
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2018-05-09T20:50:26Z asdfgh: _death: Thanks, I'll check it out.
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2018-05-09T21:00:10Z asdfgh: _death: I'm not terribly convinced. It only mentions static types 3 times and makes poor assumptions ("all static typing is like Pascal", etc).
2018-05-09T21:02:33Z _death: I see.. since you're not interested in reading it, I'm not interested in further discussing it with you
2018-05-09T21:03:10Z _death: it is also offtopic to this channel
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2018-05-09T21:05:32Z rme: fe[nl]ix: I
2018-05-09T21:05:40Z rme: That is, I'll change it.
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2018-05-09T21:24:29Z theemacsshibe[m]:  > Are there any advantages to dynamic typing over static typing besides macrology (which I think has been fixed with the "Type Systems As Macros" paper)?
2018-05-09T21:24:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's much easier to leave types to the compiler, so that the functions you use define your inputs/outputs and not you tbh
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2018-05-09T21:25:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: here SBCL has identified `(lambda (x) (+ x 2))` as returning `((FUNCTION (T) (VALUES NUMBER &OPTIONAL)))`
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2018-05-09T21:33:55Z Bike: probably "static typing" here is meant to include things without manifest typing, like ML
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2018-05-09T21:54:47Z rme: fe[nl]ix: Current CCL sources (1.11.5 and 1.12-dev) no longer have a #\/ in lisp-implementation-version.  Thanks for telling me about the problem that caused.
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2018-05-09T22:14:16Z fe[nl]ix: rme: thanks
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2018-05-09T22:23:00Z jasom: variadic and as a function; how would you implement it? (every #'identity X) (not (position nil X))? somethign else?
2018-05-09T22:24:40Z pillton: jasom: pardon?
2018-05-09T22:25:28Z _death: jasom: I'd think (every #'funcall conjuncts) but given your examples, the former..
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2018-05-09T22:26:12Z jasom: sorry I'm feeling off today.  I have a list X.  I want to test if there are no NILs in the list.  What's a clear way of writing that?
2018-05-09T22:26:57Z _death: your every, or notany..
2018-05-09T22:27:50Z Josh_2: some?
2018-05-09T22:28:27Z jasom: roughly the same effect that (apply #'and X) would have if cl:and were a function.
2018-05-09T22:29:10Z jcowan: _death: Most of the discussion is over my head, but I gather that there are some problems with compiling beta methods.
2018-05-09T22:29:41Z Xach: jasom: i use (notany #'null list) for that sometimes.
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2018-05-09T22:31:16Z _death: jcowan: I've read the discussion some years ago.. will have to read it again to reach a conclusion
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2018-05-09T22:32:51Z _death: jcowan: but do you think these problems are clisp-specific or apply to other implementations as well
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2018-05-09T22:50:08Z jcowan: From what I gather they are because the MOP doesn't have anything to say about what happens at compile time.
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2018-05-09T22:55:31Z _death: that may be.. the code presented, modified to make use of closer-mop, also has an issue.. I may look at it this weekend
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2018-05-09T22:56:33Z Bike: where was the code again?
2018-05-09T22:56:50Z _death: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/60353ea473b7493e
2018-05-09T22:56:51Z _death:  
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2018-05-09T22:58:04Z Bike: thanks
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2018-05-09T23:00:03Z _death: also clisp wasn't the implementation discussed, sbcl was.. but that was 13 years ago
2018-05-09T23:01:10Z Bike: defmethod make-method-lambda <-- oh, i see the problem
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2018-05-10T00:27:36Z _death: ok.. closette has method functions taking 2 params (args and next-methods), code in post has them taking 3 ("inner-blobs"), and closer-mop expects them to take keyword args for gf and method
2018-05-10T00:30:09Z Bike: yeah, mop is kind of ambiguous on this point. keyword arguments is costanza's proposal (in "make-method-lambda considered harmful")
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2018-05-10T00:33:32Z Bike: i have my own idea for it, but he's like the only person who actually writes make-method-lambda methods, sooooo
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2018-05-10T00:34:01Z _death: hehe
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2018-05-10T00:34:57Z _death: but given that I remove the silly ,gf from the expansion, I can compile and load the beta method combination implementation and user code, and running it gives expected results
2018-05-10T00:35:31Z Bike: the... oh, because functions aren't dumpable
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2018-05-10T00:37:18Z _death: but now I have this paper to read on the weekend I guess ;)
2018-05-10T00:38:09Z Bike: if closer mop does keywords you've already got the gist of it
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2018-05-10T00:39:31Z _death: but it contains the rationale, which is not obvious to me
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2018-05-10T01:13:08Z jcowan: clearly that paper was inspired directly or indirectly by the beta efforot
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2018-05-10T01:23:16Z Lord_Nightmare: the PCL book talks about 'lisp in a box' from allegro, I assume that offer expired, and the current 'lisp in a box' is CCL based?
2018-05-10T01:24:01Z Lord_Nightmare: or is there no specific lisp implementation given, and you choose your own?
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2018-05-10T01:26:04Z _death: Lord_Nightmare: nowadays you can check out https://portacle.github.io
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2018-05-10T01:28:03Z _death: jcowan: right.. it also explains the compilation-related issue.. doesn't talk about the particular keyword args used by closer-mop, but I guess they make sense as "default good-to-haves"
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2018-05-10T03:58:44Z White_Flame: What's the way best to permanently set a new readtable at compile time, for the reset of the project?  Are changes to a readtable scoped under the current LOAD?
2018-05-10T03:58:52Z White_Flame: s/reset/rest/
2018-05-10T03:59:38Z White_Flame: trying to use fare-quasiquote (with named-readtables) to make simple list-based codewalkers see comma terms
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2018-05-10T04:00:41Z Bike: load does rebind *readtable*, but that doesn't matter for compile time obviously.
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2018-05-10T04:00:57Z Bike: compile-file rebinds them too, so there's your issue.
2018-05-10T04:01:52Z White_Flame: ok, that ended up being my suspicion
2018-05-10T04:02:00Z White_Flame: I'll have to inject that way high up the build script
2018-05-10T04:02:18Z White_Flame: right now the readtable change is nested inside a LOADed file
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2018-05-10T04:04:38Z Bike: i t hink asdf has like, around hooks, to use? dunno
2018-05-10T04:04:52Z White_Flame: I do have an (eval (read-from-string field-from-init-file)) that should serve the purpose
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2018-05-10T04:07:28Z White_Flame: our build stuff is many years old by now.  I define a single init file, and can use it either interactively in SLIME to set up the environment, or to build an executable image.  Are there other tools out there that are more common for such a purpose?
2018-05-10T04:08:04Z White_Flame: (still haven't replaced our simple-utils package with alexandria either, and those serve highly overlapping purposes)
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2018-05-10T04:55:23Z jasom: hmm, I'm testing a program and sbcl just exits without entering the debugger, printing only this: ; compilation unit aborted\n;   caught 1 fatal ERROR condition
2018-05-10T04:57:11Z jasom: okay, I'm actually calling uiop:quit which explains the exiting without entering the debugger.  Not sure where that compilation unit aborted is coming from though.
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2018-05-10T05:31:52Z jcrowgey1: lets say i'm a long time vim user interested in lisp.  i can apt-get install sbcl on debian and get to a repl
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2018-05-10T05:32:25Z jasom: jcrowgey1: 1) use emacs with evil-mode 2) try out slimv 3) use emacs just as your REPL.
2018-05-10T05:32:26Z jcrowgey1: but i've got no readline, no up arrow for history, nothing like thiat.  i understand that this is where people link into emacs, but surely there's a way to get some basic features without having to learn emacs
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2018-05-10T05:33:10Z jasom: jcrowgey1: you *can* rlwrap sbcl, but it sucks so much compared to an actual full-featured REPL.
2018-05-10T05:33:38Z jcrowgey1: jasom: thanks for the suggestions, i'll try them out!
2018-05-10T05:34:10Z jasom: jcrowgey1: somewhere around here I have my workflow I used to use when slimv was immature and evil-mode didn't exist.  I'll see if I can find it.
2018-05-10T05:34:36Z jasom has used some form of VI for 25 years and vim for 20, so I get where you're coming from
2018-05-10T05:34:52Z jasom does not know why he capitalized vi there
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2018-05-10T05:35:14Z jcrowgey1: lol :)
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2018-05-10T07:09:57Z jdz: jasom: it's like capitalizing LISP, to show your age.
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2018-05-10T07:21:48Z edgar-rft: yeah, we are little kids at school I learning uppercase letters first
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2018-05-10T07:25:23Z akkad: jdz: or to hide the fact that you're tone deaf from having used real lisp :P
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2018-05-10T07:35:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-10T07:59:42Z shrdlu68: Morning beach!
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2018-05-10T08:01:14Z p_l: beach: 'morning
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2018-05-10T09:13:57Z shka: yo all
2018-05-10T09:14:13Z shka: what is the best way to visualize sb-sprof output?
2018-05-10T09:16:24Z jackdaniel: scymtym wrote a CLIM application for flamegraphs
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2018-05-10T09:16:46Z shka: jackdaniel: sounds quite awesome
2018-05-10T09:18:05Z shka: but it looks like it won't work with current sbcl
2018-05-10T09:18:13Z jackdaniel: not sure if it is available somewhere yet, but we plan to include it in clim-examples
2018-05-10T09:18:24Z jackdaniel: why?
2018-05-10T09:18:46Z shka: well, i found file https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clim-flamechart.lisp
2018-05-10T09:19:58Z shka: iirc scymtym mentioned that proper API in sbcl's sprof is missing at the moment
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2018-05-10T12:21:36Z LdBeth: There is a CL native linedit lib to provide a fancy REPL
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2018-05-10T12:22:48Z beach: You can use the CLIM listener.
2018-05-10T12:22:56Z beach: That's native CL, and it is fancy.
2018-05-10T12:23:22Z LdBeth: It’s pretty configurable compared to rlwrap
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2018-05-10T12:27:10Z MichaelRaskin: With rlwrap I know that input outside of ASCII will work normally, though
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2018-05-10T13:18:16Z carmack: How to write on Common Lisp and not go insane?
2018-05-10T13:18:52Z carmack: After all, most of the time I'm writing programs in PHP.
2018-05-10T13:19:08Z jdz: carmack: mental health issues are off-topic here.
2018-05-10T13:19:31Z jackdaniel: but since you write in PHP, if you had to go anywhere it would be sanity ;-)
2018-05-10T13:19:43Z _death: write a program to write php
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2018-05-10T13:21:30Z carmack: You don't give the right answers. It makes me sad.
2018-05-10T13:22:41Z carmack: The correct answer is "M-x doctor"
2018-05-10T13:23:43Z carmack: Or "(doctor) C-x C-e"
2018-05-10T13:23:49Z jdz: carmack: you have been typing into the wrong buffer all along.
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2018-05-10T14:16:52Z carmack: Who is Erik Naggum?
2018-05-10T14:17:13Z Bike: an opinionated lisp programmer who wrote a lot on usenet.
2018-05-10T14:17:17Z carmack: Isn't he dead?
2018-05-10T14:17:24Z Bike: he is dead.
2018-05-10T14:17:27Z carmack: :^(
2018-05-10T14:17:41Z carmack: Was he a good man?
2018-05-10T14:18:02Z Bike: I couldn't say. He wrote interesting things, though.
2018-05-10T14:18:21Z carmack: Was ha a troll?
2018-05-10T14:18:26Z carmack: Like a Xah Lee?
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2018-05-10T14:18:58Z Bike: You can flip through his writing yourself https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/
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2018-05-10T14:20:08Z carmack: Bike: thank you
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2018-05-10T15:36:56Z drmeister: A good discussion thread on Common Lisp on Hacker news:
2018-05-10T15:36:56Z drmeister: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17036497#17038521
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2018-05-10T15:40:51Z _death: sbcl is poisoning the ecosystem.. that reminds me of a similar statement from the past
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2018-05-10T15:48:38Z Xof: said someone calling themselves "_death"
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2018-05-10T15:49:55Z _death: sbcl took my kitten
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2018-05-10T15:50:25Z Xof: and gave it out in pieces to windows users
2018-05-10T15:50:29Z Xof: I'm not sure I see the problem
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2018-05-10T16:04:46Z _death: it ran out of pieces
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2018-05-10T17:08:28Z phoe: drmeister: woah
2018-05-10T17:08:59Z phoe: I just noticed that on HN frontpage, came in, and "woah, it's drmeister"
2018-05-10T17:09:10Z phoe: Then I scrolled down a few pages and "woah, it's still drmeister"
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2018-05-10T17:10:52Z jackdaniel: I open IRC, and last three lines on #lisp are "drmesiter", woah ;-) [four lines, if we count this one]
2018-05-10T17:11:46Z phoe: well, now that's five lines of drmeister
2018-05-10T17:12:36Z nirved: clhs member
2018-05-10T17:12:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
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2018-05-10T17:13:14Z nirved: where does it say the default test function for member?
2018-05-10T17:13:24Z nirved: up to now i assumed it's eql
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2018-05-10T17:16:57Z Bike: clhs 17.2.1
2018-05-10T17:16:58Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2018-05-10T17:17:05Z Bike: it would be nice if this was linked from the member page.
2018-05-10T17:17:35Z jackdaniel: heh
2018-05-10T17:17:42Z jackdaniel: I was about to paste it
2018-05-10T17:17:54Z jackdaniel: it *is* linked from description of find
2018-05-10T17:18:00Z jackdaniel: so it is most likely an ommision
2018-05-10T17:18:05Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-10T17:18:10Z jackdaniel: omission*
2018-05-10T17:18:32Z nirved: member is not a sequence function
2018-05-10T17:18:47Z Bike: And yet, it uses the same rules
2018-05-10T17:18:50Z Bike: it's even in the table
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2018-05-10T18:50:36Z drmeister: I do get around.
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2018-05-10T20:13:11Z ealfonso: when I search "swagger common lisp" in duck-duck-go, first search result: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100406095801AAmvxdx
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2018-05-10T20:16:03Z dlowe: when I search "red herring ealfonso" I get pictures of fish.  Probably not a conincidence, either.
2018-05-10T20:20:13Z himmAllRight: Does anyone know how I can write to the windows CMD in an allegro common lisp application, instead of to the debug consel?
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2018-05-10T20:39:59Z Xach: himmAllRight: in my experience franz support is very helpful with questions like that
2018-05-10T20:40:38Z himmAllRight: Xach: lol mine too (for the most part :P) Just though I'd ask in here first ;)
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2018-05-10T20:42:47Z Xach: himmAllRight: windows and allegro cl is a rare combination here
2018-05-10T20:45:04Z himmAllRight: yea.... L(
2018-05-10T20:45:06Z himmAllRight: :( *
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2018-05-10T21:47:27Z chewzerita: @(+ 1 1)
2018-05-10T21:47:32Z chewzerita: nope, ok
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2018-05-10T21:55:09Z dasdas: hi
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2018-05-10T22:06:30Z cgay: hi
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2018-05-10T23:04:25Z fraktor: I'm trying to learn lisp, and one of the hardest things is writing idiomatically. I can write things that work and that compile, but they don't really "feel" like lisp. If I post some small code in a paste, will someone be willing to help me make it more lispy?
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2018-05-10T23:15:53Z _death: go ahead
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2018-05-10T23:18:21Z makomo: fraktor: i guess that's one of the hardest things when learning a new language (both a human one and a computer one) :-)
2018-05-10T23:21:21Z aeth: Idiomatic Lisp prefers tiny helper functions with descriptive names and expressions returning values instead of setting values where possible.
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2018-05-10T23:22:48Z aeth: So e.g. setting some value as the result of some conditional? See if you can instead have that conditional return values.
2018-05-10T23:23:33Z aeth: And extra bonus points if you can then spin tha conditional off into its own function, whose return value(s) (use multiple-value-bind if necessary) set the thing you want to set.
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2018-05-10T23:24:59Z aeth: So for a trivial, useless example: Instead of (if (zerop x) (setf y 42) (setf y 1)) do (setf y (if (zerop x) 42 1)) or, even better: (let ((y (if (zerop x) 42 1))) ...)
2018-05-10T23:25:49Z MichaelRaskin: Then notice you don't need a setf because let would serve you just as well
2018-05-10T23:26:21Z aeth: You usually have finer control over the scope of variables in Lisp because you're mostly working with return values feeding into let or multiple-value-bind instead of setting variables.
2018-05-10T23:26:59Z aeth: This is just an example. In general, the goal is expression-oriented programming.
2018-05-10T23:27:22Z aeth: Nearly everything returns something in the standard. Nearly everything you write should return something. Take advantage of that.
2018-05-10T23:27:45Z MichaelRaskin: And note the «nearly»
2018-05-10T23:29:16Z MichaelRaskin: If you hit something that is definitely clearer if expressed via imperative assignments, you go ahead and use imperative assignments. This happens rarely, but it does happen, and Lisp is multi-paradigm: you write each piece of code in the style that best suits it.
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2018-05-10T23:30:20Z aeth: One example is a game loop. You're going to be updating state. You're probably going to be updating state through lots of helper functions to keep things tidy. These functions will be mutating things each step of the loop, and probably won't have any useful return value, since you're just calling them for their side effects.
2018-05-10T23:30:59Z aeth: You really have to have an ultra-imperative domain for these things to show up, though. And you're still going to be using lots of return values, just not in the game loop function.
2018-05-10T23:32:21Z aeth: I guess they'll probably always show up as when you are mutating some data structure passed in to the function.
2018-05-10T23:34:09Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: most complicated algorithms are easier to implement with mutation, though. Even some persistent data structures (immutable for the world) are better than corresponding purely functional (immutable-throughout) data structures.
2018-05-10T23:35:03Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, there are many programs that can find all the necessary algorithms in libraries.
2018-05-10T23:35:54Z aeth: What I find that works is "mostly functional" style of pure functions feeding into mutable data structures. e.g. (setf (aref foo 42) (1+ x))
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2018-05-10T23:36:09Z aeth: 1+ is easy to reason about, small, trivial, inline.
2018-05-10T23:36:33Z aeth: There are plenty of opportunities for your own 1+es
2018-05-10T23:36:46Z aeth: Even if your domain is very mutable
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2018-05-10T23:50:41Z pierpa: you have scared them away :)
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2018-05-10T23:51:46Z Beepy: How do I compile a form only if a certain safety or optimization level is set?
2018-05-10T23:52:33Z pierpa: you can't do this in portable CL, so check your implementation docs
2018-05-10T23:52:56Z Beepy: Okay
2018-05-10T23:53:28Z pierpa: (or, if non portble code is ok for you, then say which implementation you are interested in)
2018-05-10T23:54:08Z Beepy: sbcl
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2018-05-10T23:54:35Z pierpa: then someone will know surely. Not me though.
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2018-05-10T23:57:30Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean, but you can examine the optimization levels with sb-cltl2
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2018-05-11T00:06:05Z aeth: Would be useful if you can do that non-portably in SBCL. Force back in bounds checks if safety is 0. Mwahahah.
2018-05-11T00:06:54Z Bike: odes that really constitute usefulness
2018-05-11T00:07:04Z pierpa: looks like the incipit of a nightmare :)
2018-05-11T00:07:17Z Beepy: I'm looking to do that exact opposite of that
2018-05-11T00:08:18Z pierpa: so that you can have different code according to optimization settings. Good luck :)
2018-05-11T00:09:17Z Bike: you want it to be unsafe at safety 3?
2018-05-11T00:09:32Z Beepy: I'm adding bounds checking only at safety 3
2018-05-11T00:09:36Z pierpa: I don't know the details of sbcl, but maybe there is a finer mechanism for controlling single optimizations, like there is in other implementations.
2018-05-11T00:09:54Z Bike: there is, but it's not intended for users
2018-05-11T00:10:36Z pierpa: probably for good reasons
2018-05-11T00:10:42Z Beepy: I'm working on trying to fix one of the easy bugs in sbcl
2018-05-11T00:10:47Z Beepy: so I could probably use it
2018-05-11T00:10:52Z pierpa: ok
2018-05-11T00:10:53Z Bike: wait, this is for internal code?
2018-05-11T00:10:59Z Bike: i think they have their own accessors, then
2018-05-11T00:11:27Z Beepy: I'll jump on over to #sbcl and see what they have to say then
2018-05-11T00:14:01Z aeth: Not necssarily Lisp-specific, but does anyone know a good way to fill a region enclosed by Bézier curves? I guess I should just do the outline and use a generic flood-fill algorithm? Although I'm not sure how I'd determine the initial inside of a letter.
2018-05-11T00:15:48Z White_Flame: well, there's tons and tons of work put into stuff like that, for font renderers & vector graphics
2018-05-11T00:16:03Z aeth: The main problem with a more naive way to fill a letter is horizontal lines at the top or bottom of a shape. There's also some issues with odd corners like K
2018-05-11T00:16:17Z White_Flame: I believe that one of the basic strategies is to search the bezier curve for where it crosses raster lines, and draw horizontal segments
2018-05-11T00:17:13Z White_Flame: of course, if the curvature is low during one segment of the search, you can approximate it with a line
2018-05-11T00:17:49Z White_Flame: you need to very carefully define what it means for a pixel to be "inside" the shape, and stick to that definition
2018-05-11T00:17:49Z aeth: At the moment, I draw the points where the bezier curve intersects with horizontal lines. This has two special cases: (1) Bezier lines that are horizontal lines and (2) curves that are pretty close to a horizontal line. To handle the 2nd, I just run the same code, except on columns. Now I have a complete outline.
2018-05-11T00:19:09Z White_Flame: that's just a line, not an area
2018-05-11T00:19:12Z pierpa: if the bezier curve does not add the information of which side is the interior one, how can you tell which side is the one to fill?
2018-05-11T00:19:16Z aeth: White_Flame: yes, I have lines
2018-05-11T00:19:22Z aeth: s/lines/outlines/
2018-05-11T00:19:38Z aeth: pierpa: I have no idea if there's some convention to either TTF or zpb-ttf
2018-05-11T00:19:46Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-11T00:19:51Z White_Flame: outlines have zero width and are generally invisible :)
2018-05-11T00:19:55Z aeth: Unfortunately, one of my most reliable sources *does* have a convention, always fill to the right.
2018-05-11T00:20:02Z pierpa: k
2018-05-11T00:20:08Z White_Flame: unless you specifically define the width of the outline and determine which pixels that actual-width outline shape area overlaps
2018-05-11T00:20:21Z aeth: White_Flame: I use round to make the width larger than 0
2018-05-11T00:21:00Z aeth: Although I guess even without round, a lucky pixel here or there would land exactly on a whole number and be drawn :-p
2018-05-11T00:21:08Z aeth: s/lucky pixel/lucky solution/
2018-05-11T00:21:33Z White_Flame: I think you're going to end up with pretty ugly beziers that way
2018-05-11T00:21:41Z aeth: It's possible that I can just fill in the outline, if there's no way in TTF or zpb-ttf to figure out the inside of a shpe
2018-05-11T00:21:45Z White_Flame: don't do outlines, do spans of pixels that are "inside" the area
2018-05-11T00:22:16Z aeth: White_Flame: I can replace round with a more sophistacted method later.
2018-05-11T00:22:20Z White_Flame: for each raster line, there are N crossings of the bezier path.  That determines the spans
2018-05-11T00:22:30Z aeth: What's more important is that I fill the glyphs that are drawn
2018-05-11T00:23:34Z aeth: This is a large project, anything that can be procrastinated will be procrastinated.
2018-05-11T00:25:54Z aeth: It does look like there are still some edge cases that round doesn't handle effectively, especially at smaller sizes.
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2018-05-11T00:35:05Z White_Flame: right, it's the mathematical crossing locations, not the pixels, that matter
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2018-05-11T00:35:17Z White_Flame: convert to pixel locations as the very last step
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2018-05-11T01:12:35Z Xach: aeth: have you seen cl-vectors? it does all the work.
2018-05-11T01:13:00Z Xach: i like it very much
2018-05-11T01:13:36Z Xach: it closed the gap for me for drawing nice shapes into pngs and pdfs
2018-05-11T01:13:41Z Xach: well pngs anyway
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2018-05-11T01:16:39Z aeth: Xach: I have to do my own implementation because I'm, at the moment, planning on moving this to the GPU at some point.
2018-05-11T01:16:57Z aeth: I can use libraries like zpb-ttf because I can just convert that to whatever format the GPU will expect
2018-05-11T01:17:48Z aeth: (It wouldn't be run every frame, it would just be run on the GPU because it's one of those very parallel things that GPU compute should do well.)
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2018-05-11T01:29:30Z Xach: ok, well, cl-vectors is cool and explains & implements the math for pixel coverage of closed bezier curve paths
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2018-05-11T01:33:54Z aeth: I think I have an algorithm. I now color the outline red for entering the shape and blue for exiting the shape.
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2018-05-11T01:40:12Z aeth: (if both, i.e. purple, then it's ignored altogether afaik)
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2018-05-11T01:48:27Z ealfonso: is there an API documentation tool in CL?
2018-05-11T01:49:14Z pierpa: yes, emacs
2018-05-11T01:51:03Z Xach: ealfonso: there are a few. there is not one consensus tool.
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2018-05-11T01:52:43Z ealfonso: Xach is there one or a few you might recommend?
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2018-05-11T01:57:22Z Xach: ealfonso: hmm, no, sorry.
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2018-05-11T02:00:21Z ealfonso: https://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool it would be great if those were sorted by last active development date, or by popularity, or something more useful than alphabetical
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2018-05-11T02:08:54Z ealfonso: s/great/better
2018-05-11T02:09:47Z ealfonso: trying out clod, which works by introspection and generates emacs org mode files, which can then be exported to whatever. seems interesting
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2018-05-11T03:33:56Z drmeister: ::notify eudoxia If you designed this (http://lisp-lang.org) - great job!  It's really nice.  One critical comment about it that I read on Hacker news that made a good point was that there is no indication that one must scroll up to see more.
2018-05-11T03:33:56Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let eudoxia know as soon as possible.
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2018-05-11T03:38:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-11T03:45:06Z jasom: carmack: a late lisper who was both highly opinionated and active on the c.l.l newsgroup
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2018-05-11T03:45:24Z jasom: whoops, I was scrolled up ~12 hours
2018-05-11T03:45:55Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2018-05-11T03:58:08Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi beach
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2018-05-11T05:43:49Z akkad: drmeister: nice "fluff"
2018-05-11T05:43:50Z akkad: haha
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2018-05-11T06:26:20Z carmack: jasom: ok, thank you
2018-05-11T06:26:40Z carmack: jasom: i read Xah Lee article about this guy
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2018-05-11T06:49:43Z loke: carmack: About whom?
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2018-05-11T06:56:29Z beach: Erik Naggum, I would guess.
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2018-05-11T07:05:59Z carmack: loke: Erik Naggum
2018-05-11T07:06:09Z loke: carmack: I see.
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2018-05-11T07:06:20Z loke: Well, I wouldn't trust anything I see Xah say
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2018-05-11T07:06:39Z loke: I don't know what he said about Naggum, but knowing Xah you can assume it's wrong. Or at least misguided.
2018-05-11T07:06:54Z beach: I second that.
2018-05-11T07:06:56Z akkad: does Xah still charge for his emacs notes?
2018-05-11T07:07:58Z carmack: akkad: yes :^)
2018-05-11T07:08:07Z carmack: akkad: he always want money
2018-05-11T07:08:35Z akkad: learning "How to find a job the hardway." by Zed Shaw
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2018-05-11T07:18:41Z carmack: Xah Lee once wrote to me asking me to send him money in exchange for some of his book
2018-05-11T07:18:56Z carmack: :D
2018-05-11T07:19:22Z carmack: I wanted to be friends with him, and he wants money. It makes me sad.
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2018-05-11T07:21:35Z Zhivago: What did Xah write a book on? :)
2018-05-11T07:22:21Z carmack: Zhivago: about Javascript
2018-05-11T07:22:27Z carmack: Zhivago: nothing special
2018-05-11T07:22:56Z carmack: I imprecise put it, this is not a book, but a reference material
2018-05-11T07:23:16Z Zhivago: Ah, I was hoping it might have cult potential.
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2018-05-11T07:27:02Z Zhivago: Hmm, speaking of Xah, is he dead or something? He seemed to be planning for it a while back.
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2018-05-11T07:28:45Z carmack: Zhivago: i don't know
2018-05-11T07:29:15Z carmack: I talk about Erik Naggum
2018-05-11T07:29:39Z carmack: But Xah Lee epic guy, lol
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2018-05-11T07:33:11Z Zhivago: Well, I'm pretty sure Erik is dead.
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2018-05-11T07:36:00Z Zhivago: Maybe there would be a market for a dead lisper app. Perhaps with a betting pool.
2018-05-11T07:36:47Z carmack: Zhivago: Erik is dead
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2018-05-11T07:38:15Z carmack: I dream of lisp becoming a popular programming language with a decent salary again. And all hipster programming languages are gone into oblivion.
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2018-05-11T07:48:10Z Zhivago: Become rich and pay people to program in lisp and realize your gream.
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2018-05-11T07:55:24Z scymtym: shka: regarding the flamegraph thing. 1) starting with SBCL 1.4.6, sb-sprof exports the required interface 2) the file you found is obsolete and i'm going to delete it. i'm cleaning up a bit and pushing a version to github now. please consider it nothing more than a proof-of-concept nevertheless
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2018-05-11T08:04:31Z adlai: all you need for a "dead lisper app" is to feed entropy into reverse-sxhash, and then anneal
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2018-05-11T08:06:08Z shka: scymtym: awesome! thanks, i am looking forward for it
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2018-05-11T08:27:58Z loke: Zhivago: Can you realise by GREAM?
2018-05-11T08:28:01Z loke: s/by/my/
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2018-05-11T09:28:42Z devn: carmack: just do clojure. done deal.
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2018-05-11T10:02:51Z scymtym: shka: https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph/tree/future
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2018-05-11T10:10:25Z shka: scymtym: ooh, awesome, I will try it out at home
2018-05-11T10:10:36Z shka: i have newest sbcl there
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2018-05-11T10:20:34Z jmercouris: Hi everyone, I'm trying to solve a difficult type of problem involving cominbatorials
2018-05-11T10:20:46Z jmercouris: imagine this, you have a set of rules
2018-05-11T10:21:00Z jmercouris: these rules are irrelevant to the problem
2018-05-11T10:21:09Z jmercouris: or rather, the nature of these rules are irrelevant
2018-05-11T10:21:27Z jmercouris: you have a set of data, and you must selectively apply different rules to different pieces of the data to maximize some variable
2018-05-11T10:21:50Z jmercouris: so imagine this, I have ten pieces of data, and five rules
2018-05-11T10:22:05Z jmercouris: I can say something like data piece one + rule 1 = some value
2018-05-11T10:22:12Z jmercouris: data piece one + rule 2 = some different value
2018-05-11T10:22:16Z White_Flame: genetic algorithm
2018-05-11T10:22:24Z jmercouris: wait a second
2018-05-11T10:22:33Z jmercouris: that might be an approach, I hadn't thought about that
2018-05-11T10:22:50Z White_Flame: the nice thing is that it sounds like you have a very easy to compute fitness function
2018-05-11T10:22:57Z jmercouris: yes, I do
2018-05-11T10:23:08Z jmercouris: the problem is, the amount of permutations is astronomical
2018-05-11T10:23:26Z White_Flame: hence genetic algorithm ;)
2018-05-11T10:23:45Z White_Flame: now, if you want to guarantee the maximum across all possibilities, then you might be in a bit more of a pickle
2018-05-11T10:24:08Z jmercouris: well, the challenge is that, I would have to train a genetic algorithm for each data set
2018-05-11T10:24:12Z jmercouris: and each rule set
2018-05-11T10:24:17Z jmercouris: and there are many sets of rules, unfortunately
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2018-05-11T10:24:45Z jmercouris: maybe I should just start with a small subset
2018-05-11T10:25:09Z White_Flame: oh, so it's not combine N rules together, but you have a bag of x and a bag of y, and need to find a singular pairing from X and Y that maximizes fitness?
2018-05-11T10:25:27Z jmercouris: yes, it is like that
2018-05-11T10:25:42Z jmercouris: let me make it more concrete for you, and tell you exactly what the problem I'm trying to solve is
2018-05-11T10:25:53Z jmercouris: you have a set of parcels that you want to ship somewhere
2018-05-11T10:26:01Z jmercouris: which shipping products can you combine from which carriers to get the cheapest possible shipping
2018-05-11T10:26:15Z jmercouris: the thing is, they all have different rules, and prices for a different product may vary based on weight, or other strange factors
2018-05-11T10:26:26Z White_Flame: then maybe just monte carlo and see what averages out
2018-05-11T10:26:32Z jmercouris: so, you might think, lump them all in a box, and get the carrier with the cheapest quote
2018-05-11T10:26:43Z jmercouris: the problem is, that is *not* the cheapest way to ship all the items
2018-05-11T10:27:28Z White_Flame: what do you want the result to be?
2018-05-11T10:27:56Z White_Flame: a function that you feed in the situation, and it spits out how many packages and to which carriers?
2018-05-11T10:28:00Z jmercouris: a set of products (aka USPS first class mail, priority mail) that one should buy to ship a set of packages somewhere for the cheapest price
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2018-05-11T10:28:05Z jmercouris: correct
2018-05-11T10:28:38Z White_Flame: well, GAs do build up functions
2018-05-11T10:28:58Z White_Flame: or at least, can
2018-05-11T10:29:17Z jmercouris: but they'll only be able to respond to sort of "known" set of packages, no?
2018-05-11T10:29:22Z White_Flame: so given a set of products, the search space is still too big?
2018-05-11T10:29:30Z jmercouris: if you give them a piece of data they haven't been trained against, they'll fail
2018-05-11T10:30:05Z jmercouris: given a set of products, the search space is not too big, the issue is the variety of parcels and ways the parcels can be combined together
2018-05-11T10:30:34Z jmercouris: even just think about this, you have 3d models of products, even just the challenge of knowing how products could fit together in a box
2018-05-11T10:30:48Z jmercouris: we don't have to get into that, but yeah, I've been thinking about this problem for days
2018-05-11T10:30:56Z White_Flame: I'm basically asking if the "real" search could be done for each concrete example, instead of trying to conceive of a meta-maximum
2018-05-11T10:31:08Z jmercouris: can you please clarify what you mean?
2018-05-11T10:31:16Z jmercouris: could someone sit down by hand, and calculate the ideal?
2018-05-11T10:31:42Z White_Flame: since you want a function to be generated, you want code which can generate the code which can solve problems
2018-05-11T10:31:47Z White_Flame: that's a sort of meta solution
2018-05-11T10:31:58Z jmercouris: yes, that is what I would like to do
2018-05-11T10:32:06Z jmercouris: so that as the rules change, I can rerun my program
2018-05-11T10:32:43Z White_Flame: what I'm asking is that instead of lookign at the entire space, if you just look at "Here's the things I need to ship now", can a reasonable search be done at that instance instead of trying to tackle the meta-problem?
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2018-05-11T10:32:59Z jmercouris: yes, I believe so
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2018-05-11T10:33:44Z White_Flame: "solving" the meta problem wil leave you with a reasonable guess as to a policy which will generate a decision.  Doing the real search in every instance will give you optimal results
2018-05-11T10:34:12Z jmercouris: I guess what will determine which approach to use would be the compute time cost
2018-05-11T10:34:35Z White_Flame: which is why I asked how feasible the search is per instance
2018-05-11T10:34:57Z jmercouris: I would say, the cost is very high
2018-05-11T10:35:07Z jmercouris: because I can see so many permutations of grouping together parcels and carriers
2018-05-11T10:35:19Z White_Flame: this is also a field where expert systems could be used, throwing human-generated preference rules for evaluating the situation
2018-05-11T10:35:36Z White_Flame: togehter into a pot and seeing what emerges
2018-05-11T10:36:19Z jmercouris: there are no humans in this space, unfortunately
2018-05-11T10:36:29Z jmercouris: and giving some supervised learning would be extraordinarly laborious
2018-05-11T10:37:46Z White_Flame: your inputs, for each problem run, is a set of items with their weight & dimensions, a set of available containers/dimensions/cost, and the output is a list of containers each of which hold some items?
2018-05-11T10:38:04Z jmercouris: yes, correct
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2018-05-11T10:38:56Z White_Flame: and of course the set of items changes constantly, but the available shipping methods also can change
2018-05-11T10:39:15Z jmercouris: yes, the set of available shipping methods can change depending on the locale, offers, etc
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2018-05-11T10:39:59Z jmercouris: also important to note, the set of available containers/dimensions/cost is not discrete. That is, the price of a parcel will increase by weight, for some products, therefore, there are an infinite number of prices available
2018-05-11T10:40:13Z White_Flame: right
2018-05-11T10:40:30Z White_Flame: really, it's a pricing algorihm per parcel, not price
2018-05-11T10:40:51Z jmercouris: no, it isn't because multiple parcels may be grouped into a bigger parcel to save on overall price
2018-05-11T10:40:58Z White_Flame: but presumably those algorithms are from a small set, usually base + N * weight over threshold
2018-05-11T10:41:18Z White_Flame: "parcel" as in packed shipping box
2018-05-11T10:41:27Z jmercouris: it's not about reducing the total cost per parcel, because parcels may be merged into "meta" parcels
2018-05-11T10:41:44Z jmercouris: a packed shipping box may be put into another box with another box
2018-05-11T10:41:48Z jmercouris: and that *MAY* be cheaper
2018-05-11T10:42:09Z jmercouris: think about when you get items from amazon, and sometimes there are multiple boxes in the box
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2018-05-11T10:42:24Z White_Flame: I don't think I've ever received nested amazon boxes
2018-05-11T10:42:28Z jmercouris: it's about reducing the total cost for the whole shipment (a set of parcels)
2018-05-11T10:42:38Z jmercouris: White_Flame: I have
2018-05-11T10:42:59Z jmercouris: anyways, the probem is pretty complex
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2018-05-11T10:43:04Z jmercouris: I'm looking into genetic algorithms now
2018-05-11T10:43:09Z White_Flame: I do think this is probably an expert system solution
2018-05-11T10:43:32Z White_Flame: because there's a lot of human understanding factors of what's possible, as well as rote math to determine weight and if dimensions can fit within each other
2018-05-11T10:43:57Z jmercouris: I think maybe I'll decompose the problem into a smaller set of problems and just solve one at a time
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2018-05-11T10:44:17Z jmercouris: for example, I'll make a program that given a set of parcels calculates the ways that they may be combined into larger, meta parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:20Z jmercouris: with some reasonble constraints
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2018-05-11T10:44:42Z jmercouris: and then it returns a set of these parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:59Z jmercouris: then maybe another program that generates a set of prices given a set of parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:59Z White_Flame: I once ordered 10 smal items from amazon, and each came in their own separate shipping box.  I'ts hard to understand how that would have been cheaper
2018-05-11T10:45:15Z jmercouris: Well, yeah, maybe the should have combined them in a couple of different ways
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2018-05-11T10:45:31Z jmercouris: but the other thing that you don't understand about amazon fulfillment is that it isn't all necessarily coming from the same warehouse
2018-05-11T10:45:47Z White_Flame: well, those are all components, but they all need to be integrated functions of the problem solver, not necessarily separated steps
2018-05-11T10:46:04Z jmercouris: yes, but they are I think simpler to solve as separate steps
2018-05-11T10:46:12Z jmercouris: I'm not a genius :D
2018-05-11T10:46:17Z jmercouris: I can't keep it all in my head
2018-05-11T10:46:18Z White_Flame: well, they're necessarily sub-problems
2018-05-11T10:46:25Z jmercouris: so in my mind they are like mini programs
2018-05-11T10:46:41Z White_Flame: it's not making the problem easier, because that's not actually decomposing it
2018-05-11T10:46:41Z jmercouris: I'm always thinking of programs in my head as sets of computers and functions with their own APIs
2018-05-11T10:47:12Z jmercouris: how would you make the problem easier? and how is breaking apart the problem into sub-problems not decomoposing it?
2018-05-11T10:47:43Z White_Flame: you're not transforming the problem into another representation
2018-05-11T10:47:48Z White_Flame: it's still the same problem
2018-05-11T10:48:05Z jmercouris: well, it is a set of problems, where we pipe information from one step to the next
2018-05-11T10:48:11Z jmercouris: true, it is the same set of operations
2018-05-11T10:48:23Z White_Flame: like, if you want to figure out how to efficiently mow a yard, you need to figure out how to start the lawnmower.  That doesn't actually decompose the difficulty of the problem, to figure out how to operate it
2018-05-11T10:48:23Z jmercouris: but by separating the problems with some sort of API, it feels easier to manage for me
2018-05-11T10:49:22Z jmercouris: talking with you has been very helpful in helping me sort out my thoughts
2018-05-11T10:49:24Z jmercouris: thanks for your time
2018-05-11T10:49:27Z White_Flame: sure
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2018-05-11T13:14:14Z beli: hi there. i am trying to install turtle (https://turtlapp.com/docs/server/) and while calling "cl '(load "start")' i get error message that package QL does not exists. it should be loaded due to (ql:quickload :turtl) and quickload is installed on my system. any ideas why it is not found?
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2018-05-11T13:43:28Z nirved: beli: load quicklisp first
2018-05-11T13:43:58Z beli: nirved: got it....no ql error anymore, but it doesn't find TURTL now
2018-05-11T13:44:40Z beli: nirved: debian package did install ql, but not configure/load it automagically
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2018-05-11T13:47:17Z nirved: beli: check *default-pathname-defaults*, maybe use full path in (load "/..../api/start")
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2018-05-11T14:07:51Z beli: nirved: its using relative paths, but giving fullpath worked though. now i run in a problem with ql again. i need to read more about how it works i guess...but enough for today. thanks for your help
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2018-05-11T14:38:55Z mercourisj: any work on compiling lisp to wasm?
2018-05-11T14:40:37Z Xach: mercourisj: doug crosher looked into it a while ago but i haven't heard anything recent.
2018-05-11T14:40:55Z mercourisj: Xach: I see, thanks
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2018-05-11T15:03:08Z _death: may want to check out https://github.com/Arboreta/arboreta-wasm/
2018-05-11T15:03:37Z mercourisj: _death: thanks
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2018-05-11T15:56:27Z Oladon_work: drmeister: You are a most eloquent apologist for Lisp — well done! (re: your recent HN comments0
2018-05-11T15:56:29Z Oladon_work: )
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2018-05-11T15:58:14Z easye: Oladon_work: which HN comments?
2018-05-11T15:58:28Z Oladon_work: easye: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17036497
2018-05-11T16:01:58Z Xach: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=drmeister is another way to find things
2018-05-11T16:03:57Z easye: Thanks Oladon_work, Xach
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2018-05-11T16:35:19Z akkad: when the background images are bigger in size than the clhs.
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2018-05-11T17:11:33Z drmeister: Thankew.
2018-05-11T17:12:34Z Oladon_work: Certainly! Your explication of Lisp's virtues is quite masterful, unlike many of our contemporaries :)
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2018-05-11T17:19:38Z drmeister: Good with words - some say I am. When I have time to think of them.
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2018-05-11T17:21:47Z Oladon_work: drmeister: I hear you!
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2018-05-11T18:37:25Z varjag: so people, what's the recommended cl web stack/framework in 2018?
2018-05-11T18:37:30Z varjag: caveman?
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2018-05-11T19:15:24Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-11T19:18:26Z cgay: hi
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2018-05-11T19:47:45Z aeth: Is there some intermediate step between :build-operation asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op and leaving things in a million little files? In particular, I *want* that monolithicness build step, but only in my code because I can't reasonably expect other people's libraries to not break when put in one big file.
2018-05-11T19:48:16Z aeth: Searching around ASDF, there appears to be a per-system version, but (1) I couldn't get it to work and (2) I still have many systems.
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2018-05-11T19:50:16Z aeth: I basically want the performance and safety benefits of everything being in one file in the final build step of my game engine (not for development, but for end users) without having to put up with everything *actually* being in one file.
2018-05-11T19:51:00Z flip214: aeth: at least for SBCL you can simply "cat" files together.
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2018-05-11T19:52:23Z aeth: In case anyone's wondering: for performance, SBCL appears to do a limited form of inlining within a compilation unit. Not as good as declaring a function inline, though. It appears to be one pass, so its inlining of (foo 42) where foo is (defun foo (x) (1+ x)) won't simplify it to 43 but to (1+ 42), unlike with declaring foo inline.
2018-05-11T19:53:00Z aeth: And for safety, SBCL can do some degree of static type checking when the functions are in the same compilation unit (possibly because of the former step)! (I think they're compilation warnings rather than errors, though.)
2018-05-11T19:53:35Z Bike: with-compilation-unit?
2018-05-11T19:53:44Z aeth: I test these with with-compilation-unit
2018-05-11T19:54:15Z Xof: Bike: there's a special case for file scope in 3.2.2.3
2018-05-11T19:54:31Z Xof: it's actually not related to compilation unit, or shouldn't be...
2018-05-11T19:54:32Z aeth: And I definitely want the end user to get the version where everything that can be in a compilation unit is. It might need to be more sophisticated than that. There might need to be a separation of utils and everything else, for instance, to prevent having to write eval-whens for functions used in macros
2018-05-11T19:54:37Z Bike: clhs 3.2.2.3
2018-05-11T19:54:37Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2018-05-11T19:54:47Z Xof: it's the same thing that caused the bordeaux-threads bug
2018-05-11T19:54:50Z Bike: well that's annoying
2018-05-11T19:54:56Z aeth: oh, hmm
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2018-05-11T19:57:32Z Xof: I can't remember if we expand our treatment to compilation-unit
2018-05-11T19:57:37Z Xof: I can't even remember where this code is
2018-05-11T19:59:38Z aeth: I'm guessing I'll have to write my own build-operation for ASDF that produces the desired result, at least in my three supported implementations of SBCL, CCL, and ECL. (Although I have issues with ECL at the moment. I think it's because I have two different versions of ECL installed with the exact same name in ~/.cache/common-lisp/, one from roswell and one from my distro's package manager, and the caches are probably fighting)
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2018-05-11T20:01:33Z aeth: (I don't know why my distro's ECL doesn't use the full distro-specific version name in .cache like SBCL does)
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2018-05-11T20:09:27Z aeth: flip214: Is catting files built into SBCL or do you mean use cat?
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2018-05-11T20:19:18Z aeth: Is there some Emacs/SLIME plugin to detect SBCL-detectable errors before compilation?
2018-05-11T20:19:46Z aeth: e.g. consider this file that won't compile in SBCL: (defun foo (x y) (declare (number x y)) (+ x y)) (defun bar () (foo 4 "hi"))
2018-05-11T20:21:09Z aeth: In theory, shouldn't that be catchable before the file is compiled? It'd be useful because often I just compile the function, and that's only catchable if the *file* is being compiled.
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2018-05-11T20:22:15Z flip214: aeth: "cat" as in the command-line utility, /bin/cat.
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2018-05-11T20:22:50Z flip214: aeth: does it matter whether Emacs/SLIME do the compilation+warning step, or your Common Lisp?
2018-05-11T20:23:12Z flip214: the warning should be given in any case.
2018-05-11T20:23:37Z flip214: you could also try
2018-05-11T20:23:39Z flip214:    (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t)
2018-05-11T20:23:41Z aeth: flip214: The compiler error is only given when the file is compiled, via C-c C-k. If bar is compiled alone with C-c C-c then it's not caught.
2018-05-11T20:23:48Z flip214: but that's another can of worms....
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2018-05-11T20:24:57Z aeth: Oh, and it's also only caught at the file level, but in the editor you could probably catch it at any level.
2018-05-11T20:25:06Z aeth: i.e. check using the function type that's currently in the environment
2018-05-11T20:25:28Z aeth: afaik only SBCL does the whole function type thing, though, so it'd be very specific to SBCL
2018-05-11T20:28:06Z aeth: flip214: I guess sb-ext:*derive-function-types* set to T would make the number declaration in foo unnecessary?
2018-05-11T20:28:50Z flip214: aeth: yes. and (defun bar ...) should then see that a string is unacceptable.
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2018-05-11T20:28:51Z aeth: It would be interesting to turn that on and then run a full application static check (not sure how, SBCL only checks within files/compilation-units) to see if I have any uncaught bugs.
2018-05-11T20:29:06Z aeth: Probably not useful outside of a test like that.
2018-05-11T20:29:18Z flip214: aeth: this setting just makes SBCL automatically define the function types.
2018-05-11T20:29:22Z aeth: Could be interesting to actually make that a CI test.
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2018-05-11T20:29:48Z aeth: (1) turn on function type derivation, (2) do a full application static check
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2018-05-11T20:30:45Z aeth: If the only way to do the latter is to concatenate files, though, then it wouldn't be general purpose because people use separate files to get around having to do eval-whens.
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2018-05-11T20:33:09Z mercourisj: White_Flame: any resources on tree based GA in Lisp?
2018-05-11T20:34:46Z flip214: aeth: hmmm, it doesn't warn me even if in the same file.... perhaps that's broken in my version?!
2018-05-11T20:34:53Z aeth: Oh, in case anyone's wondering, the reason I'm thinking about all of this is because the 3rd or 4th Python type checker is on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17048446
2018-05-11T20:34:58Z flip214: I think I've seen warnings even across files.
2018-05-11T20:35:03Z aeth: But SBCL is like 90% of the way there.
2018-05-11T20:35:15Z aeth: flip214: Well, the warnings are there for stuff in the CL package like (+ 3 "hi") directly.
2018-05-11T20:36:15Z flip214: aeth: hmmm, I'm fairly sure it did derive function arguments as well
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2018-05-11T20:39:13Z aeth: Oh, and looking into all of this, there's apparently something called 'flycheck' in Emacs (like 'flyspell', I guess), but it doesn't look like it has SLIME/CL integration even though there are dozens of languages for it in M-x package-list-packages.
2018-05-11T20:40:32Z mercourisj: aeth: you've never heard of flycheck? are you not an emacs user?
2018-05-11T20:40:46Z aeth: mercourisj: I use Emacs for CL
2018-05-11T20:41:05Z mercourisj: aeth: Huh, I thought you were a full time emacs user, my bad
2018-05-11T20:42:04Z aeth: Does SBCL's linter-like functionality have any integration with flycheck or something like it?
2018-05-11T20:42:14Z mercourisj: yeah, it definitely does
2018-05-11T20:42:24Z mercourisj: when you type in lisp that has errors, it will tell you
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2018-05-11T20:42:54Z mercourisj: not like flycheck, but upon compilation
2018-05-11T20:43:00Z mercourisj: you can also then jump to different errors
2018-05-11T20:43:07Z aeth: yes, I'm aware of that
2018-05-11T20:43:18Z mercourisj: are you looking sort of for like "live" checking?
2018-05-11T20:43:18Z aeth: And compilation is so fast I guess it's normally not an issue
2018-05-11T20:43:46Z aeth: mercourisj: Yes because a lot of the checking only works on C-c C-k, not C-c C-c, and I am just too muscle memoried into doing the latter.
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2018-05-11T20:44:30Z mercourisj: here's a list of supported flycheck languages: http://www.flycheck.org/en/latest/languages.html#flycheck-languages
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2018-05-11T20:44:49Z mercourisj: Common Lisp does not appear to be in that list
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2018-05-11T20:45:31Z mercourisj: here is an issue about it: https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/issues/1369
2018-05-11T20:47:17Z aeth: I wonder if the recommended sblint does what I speculated about earlier here, which is turning on sb-ext:*derive-function-types* and then doing some full-application static type check (if that's even possible without combining them in one file) with that on.
2018-05-11T20:47:35Z aeth: Because I think something like that is the only static checking anyone would need in CL
2018-05-11T20:47:45Z aeth: And it's almost entirely built into SBCL
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2018-05-11T20:48:35Z mercourisj: well, one might want some other static checking
2018-05-11T20:48:39Z dlowe: I'd be happy with something like that which ran on the whole image
2018-05-11T20:48:43Z mercourisj: like for example, malformed parenthesis
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2018-05-11T20:48:59Z mercourisj: I know you can use smartparens, but it would be interesting to have it built into a linter
2018-05-11T20:49:14Z mercourisj: maybe some stylistic rules as well
2018-05-11T20:49:24Z aeth: or unreachable code, which 95% of the time means there's a logic error somewhere that makes some branch unreachable that should be reachable
2018-05-11T20:49:43Z mercourisj: yeah, that would be also cool to have
2018-05-11T20:49:47Z mercourisj: bottom line would be, it would be cool to have
2018-05-11T20:49:51Z aeth: (...and 5% of the time is a typecase on floats in the order of single-float double-float short-float long-float)
2018-05-11T20:49:53Z mercourisj: it would make lisp feel just a little bit more dynamic
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2018-05-11T20:53:15Z aeth: and it's definitely possible to unbalance parens even with something like paredit if you do commenting/uncommenting of regions of code, or other actions on selections of regions
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2018-05-11T21:12:30Z aeth: Oh, this is a bit entertaining. It seems like sb-ext:*derive-function-types* derives a function type to be t if you use check-type in the function... because the program will be valid for any input at runtime after you provide it with the correct type if there's a runtime type error!
2018-05-11T21:14:07Z mercourisj: that makes sense
2018-05-11T21:14:08Z aeth: This makes some sense because iirc check-type and type declarations are mutually exclusive in SBCL. If you declare a type, it will delete the check-type (or at least the part of it that runs for invalid types) as unreachable.
2018-05-11T21:15:15Z aeth: s/derives a function type to be t if you use check-type in the function/derives a function variable foo's type to be t if you use check-type on foo in the function/
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2018-05-11T21:22:41Z aeth: Oh, there's at least one common thing that SBCL does not afaik detect: unused imports. Possibly because one-package-per-file is an uncommon style and most things are done on a per-file basis.
2018-05-11T21:24:18Z Bike: how could it detect that? it's not like the package is over after the file
2018-05-11T21:26:28Z aeth: It could maybe be an optional (turn-off-able) warning if a symbol that is explicitly imported via :import-from or a package is not used in any files of a given package, though. Technically, could be valid anyway, but in practice, someone probably forgot to remove it
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2018-05-11T22:06:18Z stara: Hi, how compute x^3-2x^2-9x+18=0 Cardano's formula?
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2018-05-11T22:14:48Z aeth: stara: Solve for x in a given cubic function? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_function#General_formula
2018-05-11T22:16:07Z aeth: It's fairly straightforward to solve things given a formula (although I've only done this for quadratic, not cubic). There's probably a fancy, more-correct way to implement it because of how floating point works, though.
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2018-05-11T22:17:31Z stara: aeth, my result is: p=-31/3 and q=308 ; Did I good compute this?
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2018-05-11T22:19:20Z aeth: stara: It's probably a good idea to use Wolfram-Alpha to check your program with some test inputs when you're working with equations that it can solve. https://www.wolframalpha.com/
2018-05-11T22:19:27Z aeth: Or some other independent implementation
2018-05-11T22:20:16Z stara: OK, but I can't compute this, get out wrong result.
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2018-05-11T22:22:30Z stara: I substitute data for this formula: https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/4d91448198219ff6936ccd3063cc9cb4bb3740fe , but wrong result.
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2018-05-11T22:24:08Z aeth: Ah, I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_function#Cardano's_method
2018-05-11T22:24:18Z aeth: stara: You should probably post your source somewhere and someone here can find the mistake
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2018-05-11T22:27:07Z aeth: (a pastebin service somewhere)
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2018-05-11T22:29:15Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/nhHNQd/wrongprobably.png
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2018-05-12T02:01:43Z Beepy: Is a dotted pair considered a valid list?
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2018-05-12T02:02:55Z White_Flame: it will pass LISTP
2018-05-12T02:03:13Z White_Flame: but I don't think "valid list" is a specific term in the spec
2018-05-12T02:03:49Z White_Flame: whereas it wouldn't be a "proper list", because it's dotted.  (unless the cdr of the dotted pair was NIL or another list)
2018-05-12T02:04:18Z Beepy: Would you consider it a sequence?
2018-05-12T02:04:24Z Bike: it is not a sequence.
2018-05-12T02:04:33Z Bike: though it's of type sequence, i t hink
2018-05-12T02:04:34Z Bike: confusing, yes
2018-05-12T02:05:02Z White_Flame: the type LIST only really tests for consp or null, regardless of what the tail of the cons chains into
2018-05-12T02:05:20Z White_Flame: but that doesn't mean that it'll fly regarding sequence operations, if it's improper
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2018-05-12T02:05:56Z Bike: ah, there's "sequence" and "proper sequence", makes sense
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2018-05-12T02:06:20Z White_Flame: "In general, lists (including association lists and property lists) that are treated as sequences must be proper lists. "
2018-05-12T02:06:32Z White_Flame: from 17.1.1
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2018-05-12T02:07:23Z White_Flame: and yeah, going through the sequences dictionary, the sequence arguments are always "a proper sequence"
2018-05-12T02:07:38Z White_Flame: "proper sequence n. a sequence which is not an improper list; that is, a vector or a proper list. "
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2018-05-12T02:08:32Z White_Flame: of course, there are some sequence operations like MEMBER that will stop when they find an element, so they won't break if the ending is improper
2018-05-12T02:08:49Z White_Flame: that is, if they do early-exit
2018-05-12T02:09:46Z Beepy: Would you consider that a bug?
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2018-05-12T02:10:25Z White_Flame: no, I'd say that you're hiding your own bug if you go down those code paths
2018-05-12T02:10:26Z Bike: not erring? no
2018-05-12T02:10:52Z Bike: it's actually a specifically mentioned possibility
2018-05-12T02:10:55Z Bike: clhs 1.4.2
2018-05-12T02:10:55Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2018-05-12T02:11:05Z Bike: under "should be prepared"
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2018-05-12T03:37:54Z aeth: In SBCL, I get a style warning, but it works (i.e. prints the elements)... until it gets to the end and then it errors: (dolist (foo '(1 2 3 4 . 5)) (format t "~A " foo))
2018-05-12T03:38:28Z aeth: same here: (map nil (lambda (foo) (format t "~A " foo)) '(1 2 3 4 . 5))
2018-05-12T03:38:35Z aeth: i.e. 1 2 3 4 ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: LIST datum: 5>.
2018-05-12T03:39:22Z aeth: Except in the second one it doesn't print a style warning to the REPL
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2018-05-12T03:44:04Z aeth: That's what you would expect if you want performance, by the way.
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2018-05-12T05:51:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-12T06:04:05Z p0a: Hello
2018-05-12T06:04:15Z p0a: I am trying to write some news software that makes reading news from reddit quicker
2018-05-12T06:04:24Z p0a: I want also want it to have archiving capabilities
2018-05-12T06:04:47Z p0a: so far I wrote something using drakma and plump. Drakma retrieves the pages and plump is used to find the news titles
2018-05-12T06:05:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-05-12T06:05:27Z p0a: my issue is that reddit has everything in 1 line, making it hard to read the HTML to track down the relevant information. What should I do?
2018-05-12T06:07:53Z Beepy: p0a, maybe pipe the 1 line into an HTML formatter so you can read it.
2018-05-12T06:09:35Z Beepy: Anyone know where to submit a patch for SBCL?
2018-05-12T06:10:36Z p0a: Beepy: another issue is that I am not sure how to extract the important information
2018-05-12T06:11:04Z p0a: For example, I've noticed that the news articles have an attribute in <a> that other links don't have, but in general it is pretty cumbersome to extract exactly what I need every time
2018-05-12T06:11:09Z p0a: is that simply unavoidable?
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2018-05-12T06:12:41Z Beepy: I'm not sure. I don't touch HTML at all.
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2018-05-12T06:13:00Z p0a: hehe
2018-05-12T06:13:14Z p0a: yeah it's pretty horrible
2018-05-12T06:13:32Z p0a: Do you want to see the code I have so far? it's nifty
2018-05-12T06:14:10Z Beepy: Sure
2018-05-12T06:17:45Z p0a: https://pastebin.com/t7YNsDyq
2018-05-12T06:18:40Z Beepy: You can throw all of the quickload stuff into a list '(:drakma :plump ...)
2018-05-12T06:18:40Z p0a: so it's pretty silly in what it does but the use is... you type (news) to get the frontpage news for the subreddits in the global var, and then you type (myread "worldnews") to read the titles of worldnews
2018-05-12T06:18:54Z p0a: oh that's nic e
2018-05-12T06:19:31Z Beepy: In get-sub, you use let*. Use a let there.
2018-05-12T06:19:43Z p0a: but p uses s?
2018-05-12T06:19:52Z Beepy: Oh yeah,
2018-05-12T06:19:57Z Beepy: the indentation got me off
2018-05-12T06:20:02Z Beepy: are you using spaces?
2018-05-12T06:20:17Z p0a: I think it's out-of-the-box emacs lisp-mode
2018-05-12T06:20:24Z p0a: I don't know what pastebin.com did
2018-05-12T06:20:39Z p0a: looks like I'm using tabs
2018-05-12T06:22:53Z p0a: well anyhow, thanks for the advice! I'll keep working on this some other time
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2018-05-12T06:25:14Z MichaelRaskin: p0a: maybe look whether something like closure-css could be useful — you might be able to find someone who has written CSS selectors for that, and also Reddit's own CSS might be a hint. In general, data extraction from HTML has some amount of inherent (unless you control the other side…) complexity.
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2018-05-12T06:54:35Z beizhia: Anyone have any recommendations for a tool to set up a common lisp project?
2018-05-12T06:55:09Z beizhia: I see cl-project, quickproject, and eazy-project on quicklisp
2018-05-12T06:55:35Z akkad: asdf
2018-05-12T06:56:30Z beizhia: that's what I'm trying to use, but failing somewhat >_<
2018-05-12T06:57:23Z beizhia: just trying to rig a single file and a some unit tests for it
2018-05-12T06:59:46Z Beepy: beizhia, what problem are you running into?
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2018-05-12T07:02:00Z beizhia: well tbh, I dont really know where to begin. Should I make a separate asdf package for my tests? And do I need to symlink my project's dir in ~/common_lisp so asdf will find it?
2018-05-12T07:03:13Z beizhia: I think I might just be a bit spoiled by languages that set up the project structure for you, somewhat new to non-emacs lisp too. I just cant figure out what the normal thing to do it.
2018-05-12T07:03:31Z Beepy: So you use defsystem
2018-05-12T07:03:41Z Beepy: Let me find an example for you
2018-05-12T07:03:58Z beizhia: an example would be sweet
2018-05-12T07:04:33Z beizhia: been trying to find some on github
2018-05-12T07:04:45Z Beepy: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md
2018-05-12T07:05:34Z beizhia: ooooh asdf knows about tests, I missed that
2018-05-12T07:07:06Z beizhia: I think this is just what I needed Beepy, thanks!
2018-05-12T07:07:15Z Beepy: Yep
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2018-05-12T10:09:10Z jmercouris: White_Flame: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp?
2018-05-12T10:10:29Z jmercouris: minion: memo for White_Flame: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp that you can point me to?
2018-05-12T10:10:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell White_Flame when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-05-12T10:10:44Z jmercouris: what happens if you make a memo for minion itself?
2018-05-12T10:10:57Z jmercouris: and the content of your memo was "memo for minion"
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2018-05-12T10:20:47Z _death: see: genetic programming
2018-05-12T10:22:11Z _death: in particular http://www.genetic-programming.org/gplittlelisp.html and https://jorgetavares.com/2017/05/03/gp-code-on-github/
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2018-05-12T11:09:13Z jmercouris: _death: I saw the first source before but was put off from the lack of indentation
2018-05-12T11:09:24Z jmercouris: I'll load it into emacs and indent it so I can have a proper read
2018-05-12T11:09:53Z jmercouris: This is pretty cool (https://github.com/jorgetavares/mini-gp) thanks
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2018-05-12T20:39:28Z Xof: in years gone by, this channel would be a hotbed of eurovision discussion
2018-05-12T20:39:29Z Xof: I feel old
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2018-05-12T20:45:28Z pjb: Xof: nowadays, there's #lispcafe for that.
2018-05-12T20:45:54Z aeth: There was a huge push to keep this channel on topic a few years ago.
2018-05-12T20:45:57Z aeth: iirc.
2018-05-12T20:46:07Z aeth: It is now very on-topic.
2018-05-12T20:46:52Z aeth: Every now and then there's an extensive off-topic discussion that ends abruptly with "go to #lispcafe" and then I check #lispcafe for the continuation and it was not continued there.
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2018-05-12T20:48:03Z pjb: Of course, the "go to #lispcafe" instruction arrives too late, and not everybody is there too.
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2018-05-12T20:51:52Z on_ion: heh its basically "we dont want your kind here"
2018-05-12T20:52:23Z pjb: No, it's really the want to stay on topic here.
2018-05-12T20:52:24Z on_ion: anyone currently active in a convo can see the suggestion to 'go to #lc' , but most of us kind gentleman take that as a hint that we are Wrong.
2018-05-12T20:52:28Z on_ion: or in the wrong place
2018-05-12T20:52:30Z pjb: We've got a very bad example with #emacs.
2018-05-12T20:52:55Z pjb: There it's almost impossible to have an emacs question answered, it's drown into off topic talk, almost all the time.
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2018-05-12T20:53:07Z on_ion: we could say something like "lets filter all the non-lisp stuff out into #lispcafe, but please, for heaven's sake, let the lisp things remain here as well"
2018-05-12T20:53:26Z pjb: Yes, of course, the worst, is when people talk CL in #lispcafe…
2018-05-12T20:53:30Z on_ion: hm i find #emacs hardly noisy enough to miss anything \
2018-05-12T20:53:34Z on_ion: heh
2018-05-12T20:54:23Z on_ion: on another facet, i feel kind of powerful or important or special to have 4 lisp channels , actually 7, and at most one for anything else
2018-05-12T20:54:58Z pjb: :-)
2018-05-12T20:55:10Z on_ion: #lisp ##lisp #lispcafe #lispgames #ecl #sbcl ; aside from the last three which have their own cliques and themes, sometimes its hard to tell what comes from where or what goes to where. and to who and etc..
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2018-05-12T21:02:56Z aeth: I was in ##lisp and #lispweb but left them years ago because they're kinda dead and I'm in too many channels (20ish)
2018-05-12T21:03:29Z aeth: I am also in #clnoobs which very often is a bunch of Lisp veterans talking about deep details of the language.
2018-05-12T21:06:17Z pjb: ok, perhaps we could keep a single room, but it would have to be a bigger room, so that each conversation could occur independenty, in a different corner of the window.
2018-05-12T21:06:29Z pjb: We'd need a new irc client.
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2018-05-12T21:07:41Z pjb: Somebody invented Second Life for this…
2018-05-12T21:07:57Z pjb: Perhaps we should open a Second Life lisp room?
2018-05-12T21:08:05Z aeth: no
2018-05-12T21:08:11Z aeth: recreate the concept in Lisp
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2018-05-12T21:08:24Z aeth: Except people still won't use it because it won't be pure Lisp because it will have to FFI into OpenGL and something like SDL
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2018-05-12T21:18:51Z ebrasca: whe can implement someting like OpenGL in pure common lisp.
2018-05-12T21:19:38Z aeth: The best bet would be Mezzano and the author, when questioned here a while back, said something along the lines that Vulkan is possible but OpenGL is basically too complicated.
2018-05-12T21:20:24Z ebrasca: Yea he have said that.
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2018-05-12T21:28:52Z edgar-rft: Let's wait a while until Vulkan becomes more complicated than OpenGL
2018-05-12T21:29:26Z on_ion: and then one of those things change, now CL is out dated
2018-05-12T21:29:49Z on_ion: one cannot simply ask nvidia for lisp opengl drivers for legacy chipsets for eg.
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2018-05-12T21:32:30Z pjb: there's cl-cuda.
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2018-05-12T21:40:35Z ebrasca: You can allways ask for someting.
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2018-05-12T21:46:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: But what about what Mr Penguin said?
2018-05-12T21:46:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: OpenCL would be more usable.
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2018-05-12T22:48:19Z fittestbits: Hi, is there a preferred common lisp library for generating UUIDs?
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2018-05-12T23:28:34Z bugrum: Hi, I'm interested in making a Quicklisp private repository and I haven't seen much documentation related to doing this. After some googling I have found a project called Quickdist that seems to do it, but I don't know if it follows the exact structure of what would be considered a proper Quicklisp private repo (i.e something that someone can use the ql client to just point to grab the projects). is the Quicklisp-controller pro
2018-05-12T23:28:34Z bugrum: ject a good starting point to look into this?
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2018-05-13T02:35:50Z fraktor: I'm writing a program that, depending on an argument, should switch either the x or y component of a vector that I'm storing in a cons cell. What's the best way to do this? Could I pass in an atom like 'x or 'y?
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2018-05-13T02:37:25Z White_Flame: it could be a boolean, too
2018-05-13T02:37:25Z minion: White_Flame, memo from jmercouris: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp that you can point me to?
2018-05-13T02:38:09Z fraktor: If I wanted to pass in an atom like 'x or 'y, how would I do that? I tried using an if and eq, but that didn't work.
2018-05-13T02:38:30Z White_Flame: that's not a sufficient enough explanation of what didn't work
2018-05-13T02:39:01Z fraktor: Fair enough. I'll post a paste.
2018-05-13T02:39:06Z White_Flame: (defun foo (var) ...)  if you call it via (foo 'x), then a (if (eq var 'x) ...) should work
2018-05-13T02:39:15Z White_Flame: inside the body of foo
2018-05-13T02:39:24Z fraktor: Interesting... that's what I did.
2018-05-13T02:39:50Z White_Flame: you also need to be aware of packages
2018-05-13T02:40:06Z White_Flame: if your 'x in the caller is cl-user::x, and your 'x in FOO's source code is my-project::x or something
2018-05-13T02:40:32Z fraktor: No packages. I'm still learning basic lisp.
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2018-05-13T02:45:11Z White_Flame: minion: memo for jmercouris: there are little examples via google, but you'd have to customize and figure out what sort of code mutations you want
2018-05-13T02:45:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-05-13T02:47:02Z fraktor: So I've got my program working, but it's ugly as sin.
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2018-05-13T02:47:29Z fraktor: I've got one recursive function, and I can't really think of a good way to break it down.
2018-05-13T02:48:21Z fraktor: If I posted a paste, would you be willing to help me figure it out?
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2018-05-13T02:59:40Z White_Flame: sure, but recursive functions are usually fine
2018-05-13T03:00:01Z White_Flame: often times, I end up having a recursive function inside a toplevel funcction for my loop, via LABELS
2018-05-13T03:00:11Z White_Flame: also, probably better to post in #clnoobs than here
2018-05-13T03:00:44Z fraktor: Perfect! I didn't know there was such a channel.
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2018-05-13T03:51:00Z pierpa: fraktor: in this case I would use keywords, such as :x :y and an ECASE for discrimintating between them.
2018-05-13T03:51:23Z pierpa: discriminating, even
2018-05-13T03:52:53Z clintm: If I have a class that uses a metaclass and I want to make a subclass of it, is it correct to also set the metaclass of the subclass?  Have I missed something about mop and there's a way for the metaclass to follow into subclasses?
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2018-05-13T03:53:48Z clintm: I guess a code example would be 100% better than that question.
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2018-05-13T03:53:58Z Bike: you have to specify the metaclass, yes.
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2018-05-13T03:54:11Z clintm: ok, awesome.
2018-05-13T03:54:15Z clintm: thanks, Bike
2018-05-13T03:54:16Z Bike: this is because you can have a class with one metaclass be a subclass of a class of a different metaclass.
2018-05-13T03:54:30Z clintm: oh, of course.
2018-05-13T03:55:57Z pierpa: fraktor: also, I would represent vectors with vectors (duh). and then use an integer index instead of :x and :y
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2018-05-13T04:44:44Z loke: Hello
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2018-05-13T04:45:11Z loke: I have a design conundrum
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2018-05-13T05:43:45Z phoe: loke: hm?
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2018-05-13T06:26:18Z loke: phoe: Oh hello phoe
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2018-05-13T06:31:35Z phoe: hey loke
2018-05-13T06:32:36Z loke: My problem was that I am building a generalised configuration system, and I need a way to configure the system (like what backend provider to use, etc) before the packages have been loaded. This is because the configuration needs to go in .sbclrc for example
2018-05-13T06:33:06Z loke: So, I see two solutions: One is to set variables in CL-USER that the config system can access once it's loaded
2018-05-13T06:33:19Z loke: Or, I can use symbol-plists on some specific keywords
2018-05-13T06:33:27Z loke: I am exploring the second option right now.
2018-05-13T06:34:10Z loke: It's a bit ugly though, because in order to specify the class to use for the backend storage engine, I have to give th eclass name as two strings; package and symbol name of the class
2018-05-13T06:34:19Z loke: It's ugly, but I can't think of a better solution.
2018-05-13T06:34:50Z White_Flame: I have functions in my .sbclrc which set up config for my interactive environment
2018-05-13T06:34:59Z White_Flame: specifically via defun that I can call in slime
2018-05-13T06:35:37Z White_Flame: I also have a simple image-builder, which those scripts tend to use, which performs toplevel mutating steps (like loading in libs and changing readtables before loading more) that I can either use in SLIME or to build executable images
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2018-05-13T06:36:01Z loke: White_Flame: This is a generic system though, and I don't want to load packages unless you run an application that needs them.
2018-05-13T06:36:22Z White_Flame: yeah, this system is generic.  It's based on a propfile which basically lists what commands to run when
2018-05-13T06:36:31Z loke: So Climaxima for example needs a way to find out what font size to use. This value should be provided by the config system.
2018-05-13T06:37:00Z White_Flame: and I specifically do not LOAD it, because that would scope some of the mutations, and I read/eval forms one by one so taht changes to the reader (like available packages) can happen between lines, allowing plain package:symbol references to work later in the file
2018-05-13T06:37:30Z loke: So somehow, in my .sbclrc I need to tell the config system what storage engine to use (i.e. plain files) and also tell that storage engine its configuration (i.e. the path where the prfs should be saved). I need to provide this configuration _before_ the pref system has been loaded
2018-05-13T06:38:08Z White_Flame: can't you just load the system and then configure it?
2018-05-13T06:38:32Z loke: White_Flame: No. You need to be able to set the configurations, but the system itself may never ben loaded.
2018-05-13T06:38:41Z loke: If it's not loaded, those values are not used of course.
2018-05-13T06:38:43Z White_Flame: what drives that requirement?
2018-05-13T06:39:18Z loke: White_Flame: The goal to make it generic. I can't force people to force load a system in their .sbclrc file just so that Climaxima can save its config.
2018-05-13T06:40:05Z White_Flame: well, I don't understand Climaxima's needs specifically
2018-05-13T06:40:21Z loke: with my current solution, all you have to put in your .sbclsrc file is this: (setf (get :lisp-pref :provider) '(:file "/foo/bar/blah")) in order to configure the system
2018-05-13T06:40:32Z White_Flame: but a (ql:quickload "climaxima") (climaxima:set-config :foo :bar) to be runnable in some init file seems to make sense to me
2018-05-13T06:41:00Z loke: White_Flame: That's the thing, ther eis no init file. The phone purpose of the prefences sytsem is to make _everything_ configurable, even the init file location
2018-05-13T06:41:01Z White_Flame: you could probably also create a custom .asd for it, which depends on climaxima and then configures it
2018-05-13T06:41:21Z loke: White_Flame: Other applications, like Second Climacs would also use the same system
2018-05-13T06:41:30Z loke: So the prefs system can't depend on climaxima
2018-05-13T06:41:31Z White_Flame: the init file doesn't have to be in any special location.  You invoke it to set up your config
2018-05-13T06:41:42Z loke: White_Flame: RIght, and where do you put th eocnfig?
2018-05-13T06:41:46Z loke: "the config"
2018-05-13T06:41:51Z loke: That's my issue.
2018-05-13T06:41:52Z White_Flame: wherever you want.  It defines "holding teh config"
2018-05-13T06:42:10Z White_Flame: you point your config system at that file, and it loads & configures climaxima or whatever else you need
2018-05-13T06:42:14Z loke: White_Flame: WHo is "you"? In my case, the "you" is the user, not the author of the application.
2018-05-13T06:42:26Z White_Flame: sure
2018-05-13T06:42:35Z loke: White_Flame: The config system doesn't know where the file is. There may not even be a file.
2018-05-13T06:42:41Z White_Flame: I as the user set up an image definition file, which would load & configure stuff
2018-05-13T06:42:51Z loke: I can't rely on having a single config file
2018-05-13T06:42:57Z White_Flame: not a problem
2018-05-13T06:43:00Z loke: All I can rely on is things available in the image.
2018-05-13T06:43:08Z loke: So where in the image do I store this?
2018-05-13T06:43:11Z White_Flame: I guess I don't understand the specifics of your requirements and why a simple system wouldn't suffice
2018-05-13T06:43:31Z loke: White_Flame: The requirement is this:
2018-05-13T06:43:59Z loke: You need to be able to put the basic configration (like, config file locations, etc...) in the image
2018-05-13T06:44:02Z loke: Seocnd:
2018-05-13T06:44:17Z loke: This config should not cause issues if the config system is not available
2018-05-13T06:44:30Z White_Flame: what does the "image" entail here?
2018-05-13T06:44:34Z phoe: what do you mean, "if the config system is not available"?
2018-05-13T06:44:35Z loke: Third: Whatever config has been given should used when (and if) the config system is loaded
2018-05-13T06:44:45Z White_Flame: if you have an image, that image would contain the config system, right?
2018-05-13T06:44:57Z loke: phoe: Not available, meaning it's not there. Like in a plain instalaltion of SBCL
2018-05-13T06:45:10Z loke: White_Flame: No. this needs to work without a custom image.
2018-05-13T06:45:14Z loke: So, use case:
2018-05-13T06:45:22Z loke: 1) User downloads SBCL onto a blank system
2018-05-13T06:45:33Z loke: 2) Upser copies his old .sbclrc from some other system
2018-05-13T06:45:37Z loke: 3) User starts sbcl
2018-05-13T06:45:46Z loke: 4) This should not cause a crash
2018-05-13T06:46:02Z loke: 5) User loads climaxima, which has a dependency on lisp-pref
2018-05-13T06:46:18Z phoe: how do they load climaxima?
2018-05-13T06:46:21Z loke: 6) Lisp-pref initialises, and uses __only_ the information in the image to load all the other config
2018-05-13T06:46:29Z loke: phoe: (ql:quickload "climaxima")
2018-05-13T06:46:39Z phoe: so they have quicklisp installed, okay
2018-05-13T06:46:45Z loke: phoe: Not necessarily
2018-05-13T06:46:56Z loke: They may have downloaded it (and lisp-pref).
2018-05-13T06:47:04Z loke: So yes, after climaxima is loaded, lisp-pref is available.
2018-05-13T06:47:07Z phoe: loke: yes, they do, because otherwise there's no packagge QL to speak of
2018-05-13T06:48:01Z loke: phoe: Sure, but you can load climaxima using asdf:load-system as well. But I that what you're getting at is that lisp-pref is available after loading climaxima, and that is a correct assessment.
2018-05-13T06:48:18Z phoe: yep, I see.
2018-05-13T06:48:37Z White_Flame: in my .sbclrc, I have (defun project () (setf *load-image-interactively* #P"....") (load #P".../image-builder.lisp"))
2018-05-13T06:48:37Z loke: The core of my issue is that you need to provide basic configuration for the system before the system is available.
2018-05-13T06:48:55Z phoe: in your .sbclrc, create a new package called CLIMAXIMA/CONFIG that exports a single DEFVAR'd symbol.
2018-05-13T06:49:00Z loke: White_Flame: And in what package does the PROJECT function live?
2018-05-13T06:49:06Z White_Flame: cl-user
2018-05-13T06:49:19Z phoe: That symbol contains a plist or alist containing your basic config.
2018-05-13T06:49:33Z White_Flame: but, what to load & config is in the interacticaly loaded prop file, which can also be used from teh cmdline to create an executable image
2018-05-13T06:49:40Z loke: White_Flame: OK, so you are basically using what I proposed to be option 1 above: To have magic stuff in CL-USER
2018-05-13T06:49:52Z White_Flame: well, everything is in the prop file
2018-05-13T06:49:57Z loke: phoe: you are proposing a third option, to create a package in .sbclrc
2018-05-13T06:50:20Z White_Flame: when the image-builder is loaded, if the interactive var is set, it assumes it's in SLIME.  Else, it builds an executable image
2018-05-13T06:50:25Z loke: White_Flame: Of course, but this is about bootstrapping the system; to be able to tell it where that prop file is
2018-05-13T06:50:32Z phoe: loke: yep. that package can then be probed by CLIMAXIMA; if it does not exist yet, it is created and initialized with default values, otherwise the config is loaded from that package.
2018-05-13T06:50:33Z White_Flame: it's a parameter...
2018-05-13T06:50:45Z White_Flame: the location of the file is passed into the prop handling system
2018-05-13T06:50:58Z loke: phoe: Right. So it all comes down to having well-known information available to lisp-pref. Now we have three options:
2018-05-13T06:51:02Z loke: 1) Magic stuff in CL-USER
2018-05-13T06:51:10Z loke: 2) Magic stuff in keywords plists
2018-05-13T06:51:17Z loke: 3) Magic stuff in a new package
2018-05-13T06:51:27Z loke: My question is:
2018-05-13T06:51:34Z loke: Out of these three options, which one is the best?
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2018-05-13T06:51:38Z phoe: 1) sounds wrong for me because we do not want to pollute CL-USER with anything; it is a package available to the user.
2018-05-13T06:51:45Z phoe: 2) symbol plists should die.
2018-05-13T06:52:02Z loke: phoe: I agree with this two assememts
2018-05-13T06:52:15Z phoe: so, well, um
2018-05-13T06:52:24Z loke: Perhaps the magic package is the best...
2018-05-13T06:52:28Z loke: I never thought of that one.
2018-05-13T06:52:33Z phoe: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2018-05-13T06:52:48Z loke: Can you think of any other way to provide information to a nonexistent system?
2018-05-13T06:52:57Z White_Flame: magic files
2018-05-13T06:53:15Z phoe: you need a well-defined place from which that nonexistent system pulls data
2018-05-13T06:53:17Z phoe: no matter where it is, you must know where it is.
2018-05-13T06:53:18Z loke: (I guess I was thinking in terms of symbol plists because both Maxima and CLIM uses them so heavily)
2018-05-13T06:53:30Z loke: White_Flame: True... that is indeed a fourth option
2018-05-13T06:53:52Z phoe: or that
2018-05-13T06:53:56Z loke: White_Flame: It might not be a terrible one, but where wold you put it? It needs to do the right think on all OS'es
2018-05-13T06:54:11Z phoe: you could use a ~/.climaxima/ directory
2018-05-13T06:54:17Z loke: And if you want to make the file location configurable, you're back to the original question again when you decide how to confige it)
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2018-05-13T06:54:28Z phoe: clhs user-homedir-pathname
2018-05-13T06:54:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm
2018-05-13T06:54:30Z loke: phoe: That directly would not be popular on Windows.
2018-05-13T06:54:47Z White_Flame: there's also environment variables
2018-05-13T06:55:08Z loke: I guess some servings on #+windows, etc... one could build something that puts the config file in a reasonable lcoation on most environments.
2018-05-13T06:55:18Z loke: White_Flame: But there is no standard way to access those?
2018-05-13T06:55:29Z loke: There is commandline parameters as well
2018-05-13T06:55:30Z White_Flame: should be simple enough to support popular lisps
2018-05-13T06:55:38Z White_Flame: there aren't cmdline parameters if you're loading from slime
2018-05-13T06:55:41Z loke: White_Flame: Mmm... you have a point
2018-05-13T06:56:10Z loke: White_Flame: You are right
2018-05-13T06:56:12Z White_Flame: (well, I don't know if slime supports passing things to the inferior lisp.  I'm assuming you're loading your project from an already running SLIME connection)
2018-05-13T06:56:24Z loke: I mentioned commandline paramets because jackdaniel was very fond of th eidea.
2018-05-13T06:56:35Z loke: White_Flame: Correct.
2018-05-13T06:56:47Z loke: I wanted to be able to bootstrap everything from .sbclrc
2018-05-13T06:56:54Z White_Flame: I seem to be the only one left in the universe building executable images for deployment ;)
2018-05-13T06:57:02Z loke: White_Flame: I do.
2018-05-13T06:57:06Z White_Flame: \:D/
2018-05-13T06:57:08Z loke: White_Flame: Well, for one specific project
2018-05-13T06:57:34Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/tools/build_binary.sh
2018-05-13T06:57:41Z White_Flame: and of course, as an application server, it wants to continue building after the image has moved to another machine, which confuses the heck out of quicklisp and such
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2018-05-13T06:58:07Z loke: White_Flame: Oh, I never do that. I always build the binary on the system where it'll be running.
2018-05-13T06:58:13Z loke: Or, as part of a Docker container.
2018-05-13T06:58:26Z White_Flame: yeah, we're starting to get into docker
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2018-05-13T06:59:06Z loke: OK, I have to leave for a bit. back soon
2018-05-13T07:00:02Z White_Flame: sbcl --script lisp/image-builder.lisp lisp/image.prop || error "LISP BUILD FAILED"
2018-05-13T07:00:18Z White_Flame: so our system is generic, same image-builder and prop file loaded from slime to set up the environment
2018-05-13T07:01:06Z White_Flame: the image.prop does things like adds asdf dirs relative to the project, loads systems, evals toplevel stuff, etc
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2018-05-13T07:03:18Z White_Flame: I would still recommend that your system not pull from some generic config, but that your generic config stuff pulls in systems and configures them.  That way the systems don't need to be modified to benefit from the config
2018-05-13T07:03:43Z flip214: sjl: I've got a VLIME fix for you: github.com:phmarek/vlime
2018-05-13T07:04:11Z flip214: And I'm trying to accumulate all VLIME related things - if you know of other goodies in other repositories, please tell me.
2018-05-13T07:06:39Z loke: White_Flame and phoe: thanks for your insight
2018-05-13T07:07:12Z otwieracz: 4
2018-05-13T07:07:16Z otwieracz: SIvtXopseYBZZg
2018-05-13T07:07:36Z loke: I think I'll go for the config file approach, and store it in a logical location based on platform. I will them provide multiple ways to override the config file location, including both a commandline option and perhaps the plist
2018-05-13T07:07:47Z loke: So in 99% of cases, you never have to provide any bootstrap information
2018-05-13T07:08:15Z otwieracz: NOPASSWD: 
2018-05-13T07:08:19Z otwieracz: gpasswd -a sudo debian
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2018-05-13T07:11:26Z phoe: otwieracz: I think you did something that you did not want to
2018-05-13T07:11:47Z otwieracz: Pro tip: do not use „terminator” terminal emulator.
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2018-05-13T07:12:20Z otwieracz: Suddenly, everything I have typed in one instance ended up being typed in *every single running instance*.
2018-05-13T07:12:55Z phoe: holy cow, that's a pretty big bug
2018-05-13T07:13:46Z otwieracz: I was pretty surprised, looking into chat log with my friend „when did I typed „sudo -i” here…”… however, I apologized him, switched channels and WAT
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2018-05-13T07:19:55Z otwieracz: I believe this is a feature.
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2018-05-13T07:20:21Z otwieracz: Maybe I've enabled it with some weird keystroke.
2018-05-13T07:20:25Z otwieracz: but this is ridiculous…
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2018-05-13T07:52:46Z shka_: scymtym: just using you flamegraphs package
2018-05-13T07:52:57Z shka_: i can't emphasis enough on how cool it is
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2018-05-13T10:38:48Z LdBeth: otwieracz (IRC):  where does the „” thing come out
2018-05-13T10:39:39Z pjb: LdBeth: German typography.
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2018-05-13T10:53:44Z LdBeth: Get ✔️
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2018-05-13T12:16:41Z stara: Hi, how compute x^3-2x^2-9x+18=0 Cardano's method?
2018-05-13T12:17:25Z stara: I computed depressed cubic, my result: t^3-31t/3+308/27=0, good?
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2018-05-13T12:20:38Z phoe: stara: are you sure this is a #lisp question?
2018-05-13T12:22:38Z stara: phoe, not; but maybe somehow someo reply (will answer).
2018-05-13T12:23:38Z phoe: stara: this is off-topic. You'll have better luck asking on a math-oriented channel.
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2018-05-13T12:38:42Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2018-05-13T12:38:59Z LdBeth: Heya
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2018-05-13T12:41:21Z phoe: Hey beach
2018-05-13T12:43:00Z loke: Hello beach and phoe
2018-05-13T12:43:14Z loke: beach: I've been writing your document you wanted :-)
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2018-05-13T12:54:14Z phoe: Is the following valid Common Lisp?
2018-05-13T12:54:16Z phoe: (progn (defgeneric foo (bar)) (declaim (ftype (function (number) boolean) foo)))
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2018-05-13T12:55:45Z pjb: stara: (cardano 1 -2 -9 18) --> (#C(3.0 0.0) #C(-3.0 0.0) #C(2.0 -0.0))
2018-05-13T12:56:04Z random-nick: phoe: isn't progn on the toplevel handled specially?
2018-05-13T12:56:35Z phoe: random-nick: it is, all forms in a toplevel PROGN are toplevel as well.
2018-05-13T12:56:39Z pjb: stara: https://codeshare.io/GLA4R7
2018-05-13T12:57:24Z stara: pjb, thanks.
2018-05-13T12:57:25Z phoe: But my question maybe can be better worded as, can I DECLAIM FTYPE of a generic function?
2018-05-13T12:57:50Z Bike: sure.
2018-05-13T12:59:05Z phoe: then I guess I have found a minor annoyance in SBCL, unless I am wrong somewhere again. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/784#784
2018-05-13T13:00:54Z loke: phoe: Aren't you supposed to put the ftype proclaimation before defining the function?
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2018-05-13T13:01:56Z phoe: hm.
2018-05-13T13:02:13Z phoe: loke: same warning.
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2018-05-13T13:38:10Z Bike: there's a fixme in the source
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2018-05-13T13:42:33Z phoe: Bike: which file and line?
2018-05-13T13:42:49Z Bike: uh, pcl/boot.lisp 2320
2018-05-13T13:42:54Z Bike: my sources might be a little old though
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2018-05-13T13:45:45Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/pcl/boot.lisp#L2430 found it.
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2018-05-13T14:06:53Z beach: loke: Excellent!
2018-05-13T14:07:06Z loke: beach: I'll send you a draft
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2018-05-13T14:08:09Z beach: OK.  I am a bit busy at the moment.  Visiting family and such.
2018-05-13T14:08:31Z loke: OK, no need to read it now.
2018-05-13T14:08:42Z loke: A lot of things are still in flux.
2018-05-13T14:08:55Z loke: The separation between types and variables is still a bit fuzzy
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2018-05-13T14:22:10Z loke: beach: This is the current brain dump: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aaVZmegLT42ur17j7Vbtdh7auco7pmYN/view?usp=sharing
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2018-05-13T14:22:37Z loke: Here's the repository, but there isn't much in it: https://github.com/lokedhs/lisp-pref
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2018-05-13T14:25:07Z phoe: loke: your work partially overlaps with my PROTEST way of declaring configuration categories and configuration options.
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2018-05-13T14:26:49Z phoe: DEFINE-TYPE is not the best name because it directly clashes with CL:DEFTYPE. Maybe something more verbose like DEFINE-CONFIGURATION-TYPE?
2018-05-13T14:27:32Z phoe: :STRUCTURE :STRING is unclear to me. I don't yet get what it does, and also you missed a closing paren. (:
2018-05-13T14:28:56Z phoe: Using hash-tables is a better idea. Any list of non-null lists is a valid alist, and therefore you might avoid type confusion by using hashtables.
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2018-05-13T14:31:26Z phoe: So it is obvious that you don't want just a mere tree of valid lists, and instead you want an actual map from keys to values.
2018-05-13T14:31:39Z phoe: That's the stuff I've thought of so far.
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2018-05-13T15:19:36Z shka_: soooo, there is this successor to prove called rove
2018-05-13T15:20:04Z shka_: is it worth switching?
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2018-05-13T15:21:38Z comborico1611: Which word would you use to describe the difference between a Lisp REPL to that of all the other programming language REPLs?  I was thinking "memory".
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2018-05-13T15:26:37Z shka_: comborico1611: reader part
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2018-05-13T15:30:18Z comborico1611: shka_:  Hmm.  There may be more than one difference then.  I was thinking on the ability to load a function onto the REPL and then call it again.
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2018-05-13T15:33:46Z shka_: you can do it in python if you want
2018-05-13T15:33:52Z shka_: at least i think you can
2018-05-13T15:34:24Z shka_: but huge difference is that so called REPLs are not really read eval print loop
2018-05-13T15:35:23Z shka_: more like do-some-opaque-magic, eval-or-not, print, loops i think
2018-05-13T15:38:36Z comborico1611: Hmm.  What word would you use instead of "do some opaque magic"?
2018-05-13T15:38:50Z comborico1611: I'm just trying to solidify this difference with a word.
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2018-05-13T15:40:42Z shka_: comborico1611: i don't know, it just not read
2018-05-13T15:40:55Z phoe: comborico1611: integration of the REPL with the inspector, debugger, stepper and so on
2018-05-13T15:41:09Z shka_: there is no read in non-lispy languages
2018-05-13T15:41:09Z phoe: nowadays it isn't about the REPL itself, it's about how it integrates with everything else
2018-05-13T15:41:13Z phoe: ^
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2018-05-13T15:43:39Z shka_: anyway
2018-05-13T15:43:48Z shka_: comborico1611: try to implement REPL on your own
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2018-05-13T15:44:12Z shka_: in lisp it is literally read -> eval -> print and loop over it
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2018-05-13T15:44:35Z shka_: single line of code
2018-05-13T15:45:10Z shka_: in python or php, as i said, there is no read
2018-05-13T15:45:18Z shka_: i think you are supposed to eval strings
2018-05-13T15:45:49Z shka_: but in lisp, you are evaling lists
2018-05-13T15:46:04Z comborico1611: I see.  Thanks for the feedback!
2018-05-13T15:46:25Z shka_: well, more like symbolic expressions
2018-05-13T15:46:30Z Beepy: shka_, it looks like Rove is still by Eitaro Fukamachi, so it will probably replace Prove at some point.
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2018-05-13T15:47:01Z shka_: comborico1611: glad i could help
2018-05-13T15:47:30Z shka_: anyway, this is important characteristic of lisp
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2018-05-13T15:47:51Z shka_: homoiconicity starts here, really
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2018-05-13T15:50:08Z comborico1611: Hmm.
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2018-05-13T16:17:51Z phoe: Hah
2018-05-13T16:18:10Z phoe: I've only started to rewrite my old code using my new version of PROTEST and I'm already uncovering things that I should have done better back in the day
2018-05-13T16:18:32Z phoe: such as discovering that I have duplicated DEFGENERICs and I should instead create a new mixin
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2018-05-13T16:38:52Z shka_: hmmm
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2018-05-13T16:39:33Z shka_: phoe: yes, it is hard
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2018-05-13T16:42:23Z on_ion: protest? pro+test? mixin.. ?
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2018-05-13T16:43:54Z phoe: shka_: what is?
2018-05-13T16:44:08Z phoe: on_ion: PROTEST, my not-so-WIP-anymore library for defining protocols and test cases
2018-05-13T16:44:23Z on_ion: ah cool, figured =)
2018-05-13T16:44:30Z on_ion: i mean that is what i assumed about what it could be
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2018-05-13T16:46:31Z shka_: phoe: designing!
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2018-05-13T16:47:12Z phoe: shka_: yep, exactly
2018-05-13T16:47:27Z phoe: now the number is up to three mixins
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2018-05-13T16:47:42Z phoe: on_ion: a mixin is a superclass that is meant to be "mixed in" with other superclasses.
2018-05-13T16:48:14Z phoe: Geez, the Quicklisp version of BORDEAUX-THREADS is old.
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2018-05-13T16:59:53Z phoe: (IN-PACKAGE #:FOO) or (IN-PACKAGE :FOO)?
2018-05-13T17:02:03Z shka_: in-package #:foo
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2018-05-13T17:20:55Z loke: phoe: thanks for your comments.
2018-05-13T17:21:04Z loke: phoe: Do you have a link to your work?
2018-05-13T17:21:51Z phoe: loke: https://github.com/phoe/protest
2018-05-13T17:22:08Z phoe: We only overlap when it comes to configuration categories/entries.
2018-05-13T17:22:29Z loke: phoe: Got it
2018-05-13T17:22:41Z loke: phoe: I'll check it out
2018-05-13T17:22:50Z phoe: In PROTEST, a category is not particularly interesting - the category only really exists to be a reference for the programmer, and for having a docstring.
2018-05-13T17:22:59Z loke: (besides, protest is definitely somehting I need. Potato has already changed test frameworks once)
2018-05-13T17:23:11Z phoe: And a configuration entry is essentially what you describe - a value, accessed by a list of keywords.
2018-05-13T17:23:19Z loke: (or was it twice? :-)
2018-05-13T17:23:52Z loke: I have to go to sleep now. I'll check it later.
2018-05-13T17:24:47Z phoe: loke: PROTEST isn't an abstraction over different testing libraries. It still forces you to write tests in a given test library, but it provides mechanisms for generating test cases that are textual descriptions of tests, and therefore independent of given test implementations.
2018-05-13T17:24:51Z phoe: loke: sleep well!
2018-05-13T17:25:02Z loke: phoe: Oh i see :-)
2018-05-13T17:26:09Z phoe: loke: a library abstracting over multiple different testing framework would be a testing framework itself. And we already have enough of these.
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2018-05-13T17:56:58Z vtomole: chls comtran
2018-05-13T17:57:21Z vtomole: clhs comtran
2018-05-13T17:57:22Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for comtran.
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2018-05-13T18:03:28Z vtomole: clhs setg
2018-05-13T18:03:28Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for setg.
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2018-05-13T18:27:59Z vtomole: clhs truncate
2018-05-13T18:27:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
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2018-05-13T18:33:52Z Beepy: clhs nsubstitute
2018-05-13T18:33:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
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2018-05-13T18:49:58Z vtomole: Why does "(defparameter 1st '(a b c))  (nreverse 1st) (C B A)  1st " return "(A)" and not the reversed list?
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2018-05-13T18:51:08Z Bike: nreverse's side effects aren't particularly defined. it returns the reversed list.
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2018-05-13T18:59:42Z sjl: flip214: nice.  haven't seen anyone else using it that I know of
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2018-05-13T19:49:40Z White_Flame: comborico1611: the Lisp REPL has the full power of source code files.  Many other languages don't have that ability
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2018-05-13T20:14:25Z pjb: vtomole: it depends on the implementation.
2018-05-13T20:15:02Z pjb: vtomole: in any case, your code is not conforming twice!
2018-05-13T20:15:30Z pjb: vtomole: (defparameter 1st '(a b c))  (nreverse 1st)  (equalp 1st '(c b a))
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2018-05-13T20:16:05Z pjb: first (nreverse 1st) is not defined, because nreverse will try to mutate the literal (a b c) returned by quote.
2018-05-13T20:16:49Z pjb: then the mutation itself is not defined, so you can obtain any result for the third expression.
2018-05-13T20:17:22Z pjb: more precisely 1st will still be bound to the same cons cell, but the following cons cells (in the cdr chain), and the elements (in the cars) can be anything.
2018-05-13T20:18:10Z pjb: Notice that in clisp, (equalp 1st '(c b a)) returns true.
2018-05-13T20:19:41Z pjb: vtomole: the correct way to do something like that, if that's what you want to do, would be:
2018-05-13T20:19:41Z pjb: (defparameter *1st* (list 'a 'b 'c))  (setf *1st* (nreverse *1st*))  (equalp *1st* '(c b a))
2018-05-13T20:20:00Z pjb: 1- follow the earmuff conventions ALWAYS!
2018-05-13T20:20:08Z pjb: 2- don't mutate literal objects.
2018-05-13T20:20:19Z pjb: 3- use the result of mutating functions ALWAYS!
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2018-05-13T20:25:30Z vtomole: pjb: I could use setf with reverse instead. When would i ever need nreverse?
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2018-05-13T20:26:55Z Bike: i think you're confused about what nreverse does
2018-05-13T20:27:04Z Bike: it's just reverse, but also it's allowed to destroy the list
2018-05-13T20:27:13Z Bike: you use it in the same way, like (setf x (nreverse x))
2018-05-13T20:27:18Z Bike: you don't use it for its side effects
2018-05-13T20:27:37Z Bike: allowing it to destroy the list means it can be more efficient, is all
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2018-05-13T20:28:45Z pjb: vtomole: you would use nreverse when you don't need the original cons cells anymore.
2018-05-13T20:29:08Z pjb: (let ((direct (list 1 2 3))) (let ((rev (reverse direct)))  (list direct rev))) #| --> ((1 2 3) (3 2 1)) |#
2018-05-13T20:29:45Z pjb: (let ((rev (let ((direct (list 1 2 3))) (nreverse direct)))) rev) #| --> (3 2 1) |#
2018-05-13T20:30:23Z pjb: Using nreverse then may save allocating new cons cells.
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2018-05-13T20:31:50Z vtomole: Ah "more efficient". pjb Bike: Thanks
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2018-05-13T20:32:51Z pjb: vtomole: not more efficient.  If you use them when you should not, you will spend more time debugging your code than you will be able to recover ever in processing time.
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2018-05-13T20:38:00Z pjb: vtomole: basically, the only safe circumstances, is when you're mutating a list that you've just constructed, so you're sure there's no other references to these cons cells.  If you use it on function parameters, expect pain.
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2018-05-13T21:05:28Z Kundry_Wag: Hey, this question uses Clojure but I'm posting it here since it's actually applicable to any Lisp
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2018-05-13T21:05:34Z Kundry_Wag: I have a question about simulating certain aspects of a type system. There's a Clojure library called Schema that can (among other things) check the inputs of functions. For example, using Schema, one could define a Foo model - basically, a map that has some mandatory keys such as Bar and Baz. So if you define a function to have Foo as input, as in
2018-05-13T21:05:43Z Kundry_Wag: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo]
2018-05-13T21:05:43Z Kundry_Wag:   (do stuff))
2018-05-13T21:05:50Z Kundry_Wag: then when a-function is called, it'll check if the input matches the declared type.
2018-05-13T21:05:51Z Kundry_Wag: So far, so good.
2018-05-13T21:05:51Z Kundry_Wag: The thing is that if you get `obj` and, say, add other key and value to it with `assoc`, Schema won't complain, as it just checks `a-function` input:
2018-05-13T21:05:52Z Kundry_Wag: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo]
2018-05-13T21:05:54Z Kundry_Wag:   ;; won't complain
2018-05-13T21:05:56Z Kundry_Wag:   (assoc obj :not-allowed-key :some-value))
2018-05-13T21:05:58Z Kundry_Wag: That's because Schema can't just guess that the thing we are adding a key/value must remain a Foo (if that's our goal).
2018-05-13T21:06:00Z Kundry_Wag: My question is: is that assumption true? Is technically possible to create a library that if a modified obj is always a Foo inside the function? Perhaps using some magic macrology?
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2018-05-13T21:08:59Z Kundry_Wag: (sure such library could define a (typed-assoc), but that would be cheating :)
2018-05-13T21:09:14Z Kundry_Wag: (assoc is a Clojure function for adding key/value to a map)
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2018-05-13T21:13:35Z Bike: assoc /adds/ an association? that's confusing
2018-05-13T21:14:26Z Bike: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo] ...) means it takes one argument called obj, which is a Foo?
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2018-05-13T21:14:42Z Bike: you'd have to do some pretty fancy stuff, yeah, to essentially use a different function also named 'assoc'
2018-05-13T21:15:45Z Bike: given that you could use a nonconstant key, something would have to be prepared to check validity at runtime.
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2018-05-13T21:17:52Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: From the Clojure docs: `When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s).`. So if a-map is {:key1 :value1}, then (assoc a-map :other-key :other-value) would result in {:key1 :value1 :other-key :other-value}
2018-05-13T21:18:16Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Yeap, one argument obj, which is a Foo
2018-05-13T21:18:16Z Bike: i believe you, that's just not what it's like in lisp, and probably historically.
2018-05-13T21:18:53Z Kundry_Wag: Oh, sure, I was just curious if that would be technically possible
2018-05-13T21:20:24Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Oh, I see. If I understand correctly, the function definition (defn) could be a macro that would replace the built-in `assoc` to a different version of it
2018-05-13T21:20:40Z Bike: something along those lines.
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2018-05-13T21:21:13Z Bike: the trick is you'd have to do that for every possible way to make a new map
2018-05-13T21:21:38Z Bike: relatedly, given that clojure is actually making a new map, the assoc call isn't actually violating the restriction
2018-05-13T21:23:13Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Yeah, that makes sense
2018-05-13T21:23:44Z Bike: you'd want to define a-function's return type, or use something like lisp's THE to type the value
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2018-05-13T21:30:24Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: That's covered by Schema (in Clojure). I didn't know CL had a built-in way to do that, though
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2018-05-13T21:33:35Z Bike: and to be quite honest, rather than having 'alist but restricted to using these keys', i'd probably rather have a class
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2018-05-13T21:34:59Z on_ion: Classy Lisp
2018-05-13T21:35:03Z Bike: type stuff gets much easier if you restrict the possible restrictions to be easy stuff like that
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2018-05-13T21:42:20Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Sure. But it think that would be possible in CL because it can mutate the object from the class. Not sure how that would work in Clojure, where you usually apply a pure function and get a new obj, as you noted
2018-05-13T21:43:01Z Bike: does clojure not have structures or classes or something?
2018-05-13T21:44:52Z Kundry_Wag: It has records, which are somewhat analogous to classes: https://clojure.org/reference/datatypes#_deftype_and_defrecord
2018-05-13T21:45:00Z Bike: record type, sure.
2018-05-13T21:46:25Z p_l: isn't clojure's record type limited by Java OO model?
2018-05-13T21:46:58Z Bike: i'm not sure it has a predicate from skimming this
2018-05-13T21:48:35Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Good question. I don't know
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2018-05-13T23:28:43Z comborico1611: I'm trying to find the connection to the word apropos, and its namesake function.  Any ideas?
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2018-05-13T23:29:46Z Bike: "pertinent"
2018-05-13T23:30:03Z Bike: it collects symbols that are, in a very simple sense, pertinent to your search strnig
2018-05-13T23:30:46Z comborico1611: Thanks!
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2018-05-14T01:24:36Z karlosz: anybody get slime working on clisp?
2018-05-14T01:24:50Z karlosz: it seems to want a newer asdf version
2018-05-14T01:25:00Z karlosz: (require "asdf") doesnt even work
2018-05-14T01:26:14Z akkad: did you download a newer asdf?
2018-05-14T01:26:25Z karlosz: ah, i got it working the moment i asked
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2018-05-14T01:26:43Z karlosz: i just needed to load uiop beforehand
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2018-05-14T01:31:22Z karlosz: okay, now quicklisp doesn't work on clisp :(
2018-05-14T01:31:47Z karlosz: something about QL-CLISP not existing
2018-05-14T01:32:22Z akkad: any reason for chosing clisp over sbcl?
2018-05-14T01:32:41Z Beepy: ^
2018-05-14T01:33:42Z karlosz: well, i'm going to work on clisp, first of all
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2018-05-14T01:34:15Z akkad: then perhaps some assembly might be required
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2018-05-14T01:34:53Z karlosz: nope
2018-05-14T01:35:14Z akkad: so it all works?
2018-05-14T01:35:23Z Bike: i think clisp ships a really old asdf
2018-05-14T01:35:33Z Bike: i remember people coming here asking about it
2018-05-14T01:35:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: clisp is just really old
2018-05-14T01:35:41Z Beepy: Its website says 2010 was the last update
2018-05-14T01:35:58Z karlosz: well, it looks like this particular issue was fixed in the latest commit to quicklisp
2018-05-14T01:36:15Z karlosz: clisp master was updated 2 weeks ago
2018-05-14T01:36:26Z karlosz: except a quicklisp release hasnt been made yet
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2018-05-14T01:40:47Z Beepy: karlosz, where are you seeing that it was updated?
2018-05-14T01:41:11Z karlosz: their version control
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2018-05-14T01:50:09Z clintm: Is clisp the one that gets updated by loading new code into a previous revs image?  I remember reading about a CL that did that as opposed to building a new image like sbcl.
2018-05-14T01:50:54Z Zhivago: You can build an image from a system built from an imace in sbcl.
2018-05-14T01:51:29Z Zhivago: I wouldn't recommend it these days. Image building is pretty much something that was useful until dynamic linkage became available.
2018-05-14T01:51:31Z Plazma: oh Zhivago you hang out in here too eh?
2018-05-14T01:52:12Z theemacsshibe[m]: image making is nice tbh, i use it to distribute lisp programs to non-lisp users
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2018-05-14T01:53:06Z Plazma: while not the same, smalltalk also uses images (that are pretty easy to build/strip down) which is a cool concept I think still, even if it's a bit dated
2018-05-14T01:53:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: ehh, it's like having a compiled binary from C IMO
2018-05-14T01:54:12Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's possible to mess (especially with -g) with but not as good as having sources
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2018-05-14T01:57:08Z Plazma: in a sense it reminds me also of the .app binaries mac uses
2018-05-14T01:57:18Z Plazma: mostly self contained
2018-05-14T01:57:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: fair enough
2018-05-14T01:57:34Z Plazma: well partially, guess it depends
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2018-05-14T02:08:50Z karlosz: clintm: clisp doesn't
2018-05-14T02:09:07Z karlosz: pretty much all the other common lisp in common lisps are though
2018-05-14T02:09:11Z karlosz: like CCL, CMUCL...
2018-05-14T02:09:17Z karlosz: sbcl is actually the exceotion
2018-05-14T02:09:39Z karlosz: its whole existence was ttying to move away from the CMUCL style build to the reproducible build we all know and love
2018-05-14T02:10:02Z clintm: ah, right, I must have been thinking of cmucl.  thank you, karlosz
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2018-05-14T02:22:49Z Ober: how far is Clasp from being usable as a primary implementation?
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2018-05-14T02:26:58Z Beepy: that's probably something to direct at drmeister
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2018-05-14T02:27:39Z Bike: depends on what you want ot do, i guess
2018-05-14T02:28:01Z akkad: "lisp stuff" haha
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2018-05-14T02:43:26Z Ober: will use QL to figure it out
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2018-05-14T03:03:08Z loke: Ober: I don't think QL qorks with Clasp.
2018-05-14T03:03:38Z Bike: sure it does
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2018-05-14T03:04:14Z loke: Bike: Oh it does? I tried it a few moenths ago, and back then Drmeister said it was planned but not working yet.
2018-05-14T03:04:40Z Bike: yeah, pretty sure it's fine
2018-05-14T03:04:44Z Bike: asdf works and network works
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2018-05-14T03:06:17Z Ober: it dies doing the install here
2018-05-14T03:06:40Z Bike: building clasp?
2018-05-14T03:07:20Z Ober: no, on the quicklisp-quickstart:install step
2018-05-14T03:07:35Z Ober: process ends, and with it any logs
2018-05-14T03:07:43Z Bike: it might not know about clasp's initfile, i guess
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2018-05-14T03:08:32Z Bike: guess i'll take a look tomorrow
2018-05-14T03:08:35Z Bike: i've never had any problems
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2018-05-14T03:08:53Z Ober: trying setup.lisp with an existing copy. using drmeisters docker image
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2018-05-14T03:12:44Z Ober: cool. that works
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2018-05-14T04:24:13Z aeth: Does anyone else use a macro as the way to access things to avoid potentially dozens of exports in a package? What I've been doing is a with-foo-accessors that places the accessor symbols in the package specified at the definition of that macro and also can add a prefix (for the case of structs with conc-name not set to nil).
2018-05-14T04:25:03Z aeth: I find that this greatly simplifies things because then I only need to export the with-foo-accessors macro and/or a macro that indirectly uses that macro.
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2018-05-14T04:26:59Z aeth: e.g. (with-foo-accessors ((foo foo)) foobar ...) would macroexpand to (with-accessors ((foo the-package-containing-foobar::foobar-foo)) foobar ...) in the most complicated case (where it's a struct with prefixed accessors)
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2018-05-14T04:39:31Z on_ion: aeth: neat =)
2018-05-14T04:40:31Z pillton: aeth: Yes, but not to avoid the number of symbols that are exported.
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2018-05-14T04:44:08Z aeth: My macro, in case anyone's curious: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/ec47910d88254d0c6a0e8c0a33aa33c7d4037513/util/util.lisp#L247-260
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2018-05-14T04:44:36Z aeth: destructuring-lambda is just a lambda that does a destructuring bind on its one argument. It's surprisingly common. In fact, I just now noticed the pattern in define-accessor-macro
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2018-05-14T05:02:31Z loke: aeth: What's with the INTERN calls in the macro?
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2018-05-14T05:09:43Z aeth: loke: Otherwise the macro will produce something whose API is (zombie-raptor/util/util::foo)
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2018-05-14T05:09:56Z aeth: (well, something along those lines)
2018-05-14T05:10:28Z loke: aeth: Can't you just use &environment ?
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2018-05-14T05:21:22Z aeth: How?
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2018-05-14T05:28:01Z loke: aeth: instead of your reader macro dance, just use (intern "FOO" env)
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2018-05-14T05:33:15Z aeth: loke: I use #.(symbol-name ...) pretty much everywhere instead of hardcoding the symbol as a string of upper case characters
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2018-05-14T05:38:49Z aeth: I know it's essentially pointless, but at least to me it feels better to not hardcode the assumption about the reader that will almost certainly be valid. Perhaps this could be turned into something more concise?
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2018-05-14T05:42:32Z aeth: But... I suppose I should be using &environment env instead of assuming intern without that argument would work correctly
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2018-05-14T06:23:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-14T06:28:00Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
2018-05-14T06:28:31Z clintm: Good morning, Beach!
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2018-05-14T06:29:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi beach
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2018-05-14T06:31:14Z loke: Yes?
2018-05-14T06:31:16Z loke: Oops
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2018-05-14T07:17:36Z hajovonta: hi
2018-05-14T07:17:41Z iqubic: Hey.
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2018-05-14T08:00:01Z scymtym: shka: glad you like it. but i have to learn more CLIM or get somebody to help out to make it less horrible to use
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2018-05-14T09:09:50Z shka: scymtym: yes, it is quite horrible to use, but again, It is exactly what i needed
2018-05-14T09:09:58Z shka: even if it could be done better
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2018-05-14T14:20:16Z loginoob: how come NIL is a list and also an Atom?
2018-05-14T14:20:30Z Xach: loginoob: history
2018-05-14T14:20:40Z loginoob: ok
2018-05-14T14:21:15Z jmercouris: it also makes sense intuitively, at least to me
2018-05-14T14:21:38Z jmercouris: an empty list has a value of NIL, but it is also sort of "indivisible", a smallest part, and therefore NIL
2018-05-14T14:21:45Z jmercouris: that's how I think of it mentally
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2018-05-14T14:22:48Z jmercouris: s/and therefore NIL/ and therfore an atom
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2018-05-14T14:24:18Z loginoob: jmercouris: so NIL does not consists cons cell
2018-05-14T14:24:47Z jmercouris: is that a question or a statement?
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2018-05-14T14:24:57Z loginoob: i am asking
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2018-05-14T14:25:39Z Bike: nil is not a cons.
2018-05-14T14:26:02Z loginoob: ok
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2018-05-14T14:32:12Z jmercouris: other than quickproject, is there something built into asdf to just dump a sample file?
2018-05-14T14:32:15Z jmercouris: like a default file?
2018-05-14T14:32:38Z Xach: jmercouris: I don't think so.
2018-05-14T14:32:52Z Xach: there are several projects that do things like quickproject
2018-05-14T14:32:55Z Xach: but nothing built into asdf
2018-05-14T14:33:08Z jmercouris: feels like a glaring omission
2018-05-14T14:33:35Z jmercouris: maybe too outside of the scope of asdf
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2018-05-14T14:36:44Z Xach: Some things are only glaring from specific perspective
2018-05-14T14:37:53Z jmercouris: yeah
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2018-05-14T14:51:29Z Beepy: Was clhs 17.1.1 added to address the sequence functions that don't require proper sequences?
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2018-05-14T14:54:23Z Bike: clhs 17.1.1
2018-05-14T14:54:23Z specbot: General Restrictions on Parameters that must be Sequences: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_aa.htm
2018-05-14T14:54:39Z Bike: i guess?
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2018-05-14T14:55:14Z Beepy: I wasn't sure becuase most sequence functions specify that they need a proper sequence while a small few just say sequence
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2018-05-14T20:55:57Z RebelCoderRU: Hi. Can anyone please help with installing/running lisp on Debian ? I have installed it on my Py and I need it to run a server wit the following command:
2018-05-14T20:55:58Z RebelCoderRU: (load "start")
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2018-05-14T20:56:17Z RebelCoderRU: But I get an error: pi@raspberrypi:~/gits/api $ (load "start")
2018-05-14T20:56:17Z RebelCoderRU: -bash: load: command not found
2018-05-14T20:56:37Z RebelCoderRU: Any help would be much appropriated
2018-05-14T20:57:04Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: ccl runs on RaspberryPi.
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2018-05-14T20:57:25Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2018-05-14T20:57:34Z pjb: (Linux ARM)
2018-05-14T20:57:50Z RebelCoderRU: I think it is in main reopos
2018-05-14T20:57:58Z RebelCoderRU: on the Pi
2018-05-14T20:58:14Z pjb: No, it cannot.  Because ccl can only be compiled by ccl, it cannot be included in debian distributions.
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2018-05-14T20:58:34Z RebelCoderRU: I have the ARM tar unzipped...
2018-05-14T20:58:55Z pjb: Then you have sbcl, clisp and ecl that should be able to run on Raspberry Pi.  Perhaps one of them might be in the distribution.  But I would download the sources and compile it myself anyways…
2018-05-14T20:59:39Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: then, you would have to run the CL implementation first, and give it expressions to evaluate once it's launched. You cannot do that at the bash REPL, you have to do it at the CL REPL!
2018-05-14T21:00:15Z RebelCoderRU: Hmm... never did this before....
2018-05-14T21:00:21Z RebelCoderRU: A bit confusing...
2018-05-14T21:00:36Z pjb: Something like: https://pastebin.com/CT4JccTL
2018-05-14T21:00:36Z RebelCoderRU: I will keep trying
2018-05-14T21:01:07Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: it's the same principle as with Python, ruby (irb), perl, or even bash.
2018-05-14T21:01:39Z RebelCoderRU: OK. Just need to find the way to install CLL now
2018-05-14T21:01:51Z pjb: ccl = Clozure CL, not CLL.
2018-05-14T21:02:19Z RebelCoderRU: Sorry, CCL , yes
2018-05-14T21:03:04Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: Whatever you do, you need to get your Lisp REPL first (the "prompt") rather than typing Lisp code directly in the shell :)
2018-05-14T21:03:11Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: you may also have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started for installation beyond the CL implementation. Ie. you may want to install quicklisp (the CL librarian), and a good editor for lisp such as emacs with slime and paredit.
2018-05-14T21:04:48Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: You might also want to join #clnoobs if you require a bit more handholding :)
2018-05-14T21:05:02Z RebelCoderRU: A-ha !
2018-05-14T21:05:09Z RebelCoderRU: Doing the quicklisp now....
2018-05-14T21:05:11Z RebelCoderRU: Thanks
2018-05-14T21:05:15Z antoszka: Cool.
2018-05-14T21:05:26Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: What is the project you're trying to get running?
2018-05-14T21:05:45Z RebelCoderRU: I think I can do it without joining noobs...
2018-05-14T21:05:47Z RebelCoderRU: =))))
2018-05-14T21:06:03Z RebelCoderRU: A server for Turtl App
2018-05-14T21:06:16Z RebelCoderRU: Encrypted notes and stotrage...
2018-05-14T21:06:22Z RebelCoderRU: *storage
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2018-05-14T21:06:37Z antoszka: Oh cool, I didn't know there's something like that.
2018-05-14T21:06:46Z antoszka: Will probably run one myself too.
2018-05-14T21:07:57Z RebelCoderRU: Yeah. I was on Laverna, but devs dropped it. Found Turtl 2 days ago... Tried it on my Linux Box and Android - Amazing stuff.
2018-05-14T21:08:05Z RebelCoderRU: Looked at the source - defo good stuff.
2018-05-14T21:08:12Z RebelCoderRU: About to run my server on the Pi.
2018-05-14T21:08:46Z RebelCoderRU: RethinkDB was a bit of a pain to compile on the Pi though...
2018-05-14T21:09:04Z antoszka: I'll probably have more typical hardware to run it on.
2018-05-14T21:09:08Z RebelCoderRU: You have to get THE latest git branch and use clang compiler flag (info on the Git page)
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2018-05-14T21:09:38Z antoszka: k, thx
2018-05-14T21:09:47Z RebelCoderRU: I am OK with the Pi for now. But I feel I will need to move to a proper X86 mini server like a Dell/Lenovo Mini PCs
2018-05-14T21:09:54Z TMA: have you managed to (ql:quickload "cffi-libffi") on sbcl/windows? what arcane magicks are needed?
2018-05-14T21:10:43Z RebelCoderRU: TMA ? Who is this for ? We are talking Linux here..
2018-05-14T21:10:50Z RebelCoderRU: Who is your question for ?
2018-05-14T21:17:50Z TMA: RebelCoderRU: that's not in contect of the current conversation.
2018-05-14T21:18:13Z TMA: better put would be "has anyone managed ..."
2018-05-14T21:19:21Z TMA: or "anyone: have you managed..."
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2018-05-15T02:19:55Z ircquestion: Is lisp a religon?
2018-05-15T02:19:59Z ircquestion: Like that emacs?
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2018-05-15T02:21:57Z Bike: no, it's just that we computer people only dimly realize we get worked up about things that aren't really worth it, and compare it to religion to make ourselves feel smart
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2018-05-15T02:38:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: if you say it's a religion, it's a religion
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2018-05-15T04:24:19Z vtomole_: What is the machine codethat is generated by disassemble in SBCL?
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2018-05-15T04:26:26Z karlosz: your cpu's native instruction set
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2018-05-15T04:29:53Z vtomole: Oh i see I was just confused cause the 'Break' instruction is not in x86_64.. i don't think?  "(disassemble '(lambda (x) (* x x)))"  generates "BREAK 16" as the last instruction.
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2018-05-15T04:35:17Z karlosz: pretty sure its supposed to be BRK
2018-05-15T04:39:22Z vtomole: Yeah but that's not what i get: https://pastebin.com/s2cz94ik
2018-05-15T04:39:48Z aeth: They don't feed it into nasm or something. So they might have some syntax differences from what you're used to.
2018-05-15T04:42:13Z vtomole: Ah. SBCL has it's own assembler.
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2018-05-15T04:44:48Z aeth: Afaik, yes. I asked that question a while back.
2018-05-15T04:44:56Z vtomole: If x86 has "brk" but the compiler generates "break", does the compiler really generate x86 code?
2018-05-15T04:45:08Z aeth: I think ccl is similar. Its assembly is parenthesized and looks very Lispy.
2018-05-15T04:46:01Z aeth: vtomole: Do compilers that use AT&T syntax really generate x86 code? Because they're a lot further than SBCL's disassemble syntax.
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2018-05-15T04:46:46Z vtomole: Good point.
2018-05-15T04:46:52Z aeth: vtomole: It would be interesting to know if the differences were defined somewhere, though
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2018-05-15T08:11:54Z shrdlu68: Is there a one-stop-shop guide to creating FFI to C?
2018-05-15T08:12:12Z shrdlu68: I'm thinking of creating bindings to libselinux.
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2018-05-15T08:37:17Z p_l: shrdlu68: CFFI?
2018-05-15T08:37:26Z p_l: SWIG can generate CFFI code too
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2018-05-15T08:49:34Z TMA: SWIG CFFI generation is not that good unfortunately
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2018-05-15T08:53:31Z p_l: good enough to start
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2018-05-15T11:56:52Z jmercouris: So, I'm trying to write a survey collection programmer, trying to think of how to persist the data
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2018-05-15T11:56:59Z jmercouris: s/programmer/program
2018-05-15T11:57:09Z jmercouris: should I write to CSV? should I write to a database?
2018-05-15T11:57:36Z jmercouris: I am thinking of collect three types of data, boolean, string, and integer
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2018-05-15T12:03:57Z _death: sqlite..
2018-05-15T12:05:38Z jmercouris: yeah, sure sqlite is fine, but what would the table structure look like
2018-05-15T12:05:41Z jmercouris: I can't imagine a generalizable scheme
2018-05-15T12:06:09Z jmercouris: at least not without using a central table called like "survey" and it has some ID then another table related to it which has responsees
2018-05-15T12:06:19Z jmercouris: but then the only good way to actually view the data is to export it anyway
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2018-05-15T12:43:15Z schweers: jmercouris: Does your data fit in ram?  if so, you can just write sexps to a file.
2018-05-15T12:43:43Z jmercouris: schweers: data fits in ram yes, but it is part of a webapp, so I don't want to keep things in memory / connect to a repl
2018-05-15T12:43:46Z jmercouris: I'd prefer to persist to disk
2018-05-15T12:44:00Z jmercouris: of course I could always re-persist all the sexp on every write
2018-05-15T12:44:06Z schweers: which is why I said write sexps to a file.
2018-05-15T12:44:09Z jmercouris: when I say write I mean pushing to a list of survey responses or something
2018-05-15T12:44:17Z schweers: ah, okay, now I understand
2018-05-15T12:44:38Z schweers: well, then why not sqlite?
2018-05-15T12:44:56Z schweers: seems to be a reasonable way to deal with this sort of problem
2018-05-15T12:45:08Z jmercouris: yeah, but I like your SEXP idea more actually
2018-05-15T12:45:17Z jmercouris: I don't think it would be so unbelievably painful to just keep writing to disk
2018-05-15T12:45:23Z jmercouris: I don't expect more than 10 survey responses anyway
2018-05-15T12:45:31Z schweers: in total?
2018-05-15T12:45:37Z jmercouris: in a day
2018-05-15T12:45:49Z jmercouris: I hope to collect around 100 survey responses
2018-05-15T12:45:53Z jmercouris: so the data will not be large at all
2018-05-15T12:45:53Z schweers: sounds like an elisp macro may be fast enough :D
2018-05-15T12:46:20Z schweers: seems like it fits in a block per survey ;)
2018-05-15T12:46:24Z jmercouris: it would be, if I could just email the survey out to people, but I would like a website for them to be able to anonymously respond
2018-05-15T12:46:32Z schweers: err, per response
2018-05-15T12:47:49Z schweers: or just mmap a file and write directly to memory via CFFI :-P
2018-05-15T12:48:03Z jmercouris: sure, why not :D
2018-05-15T12:48:52Z schweers: one of the reasons I like lisp and its modern implementations so much: you can program at really high levels, but also muck about with stuff like that :)
2018-05-15T12:50:17Z pierpal: looks like a good case for a prevalence db. there's at least one implementation in cl, which I never tried, though
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2018-05-15T12:50:54Z schweers: Just for the record: there are also kyotocabinet bindings for lisp
2018-05-15T12:51:24Z schweers: but they are broken in some ways: getting the size of the store is not implemented, for instance
2018-05-15T12:52:34Z jmercouris: kyotocabinet?
2018-05-15T12:53:02Z schweers: http://fallabs.com/kyotocabinet/
2018-05-15T12:53:06Z schweers: basically a key value store
2018-05-15T12:53:21Z schweers: keys and values are both byte sequences
2018-05-15T12:53:26Z jmercouris: interesting, I would rather use neo4j for something like that
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2018-05-15T12:53:41Z jmercouris: mostly because of cypher
2018-05-15T12:53:46Z pierpal: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/
2018-05-15T12:54:22Z schweers: I’m looking at this right now: https://neo4j.com/
2018-05-15T12:54:35Z schweers: Seems like a horrible way to present a product
2018-05-15T12:54:54Z jmercouris: Don't worry about the presentation, that's irrelevant
2018-05-15T12:55:19Z schweers: also the “4j” part in the name gives me the willies.
2018-05-15T12:55:24Z jmercouris: also irrelevant
2018-05-15T12:55:29Z schweers: but maybe that’s just me
2018-05-15T12:55:41Z jmercouris: here is what makes neo4j great: https://neo4j.com/developer/cypher-query-language/
2018-05-15T12:55:56Z jmercouris: that and the performance
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2018-05-15T12:56:40Z schweers: hm, interesting
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2018-05-15T12:56:45Z schweers: looks a bit like sql for graphs
2018-05-15T12:57:50Z schweers: you convinced me: it may be worth looking at, should the need arise
2018-05-15T12:58:07Z schweers: but I don’t see how it relates to your question and kyotocabinet
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2018-05-15T12:58:31Z jmercouris: well, it's a really good key/value store
2018-05-15T12:58:43Z jmercouris: it's not purely a graph database
2018-05-15T12:59:58Z schweers: I assume that using it from a non-jvm process involves IPC of some sorts
2018-05-15T13:00:12Z schweers: which can be bad for performance, depending on what you do
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2018-05-15T13:01:00Z jmercouris: it's not so bad
2018-05-15T13:01:12Z jmercouris: I've used it from python with pretty good success
2018-05-15T13:01:21Z jmercouris: most of the time cost is in the actual database operations rather than the IPC
2018-05-15T13:01:33Z jmercouris: you do most of your logic in Cypher rather than handling it piecemeal and processing it in another language
2018-05-15T13:02:07Z jmercouris: so that reduces the overhead of information flow between the database and the program
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2018-05-15T13:11:26Z schweers: jmercouris: I guess you’re right, if you use that part of it.  I was concerned about using it as a plain old key/value store.
2018-05-15T13:12:09Z schweers: And if the only thing you do is put values in and retrieve them and do that alot, you may run into performance issues.  The question is of course: are you using the right tool for the job, if that is all you need?
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2018-05-15T13:14:08Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2018-05-15T13:14:30Z Bike: heyo.
2018-05-15T13:15:04Z beach: Great, when I am not on #lisp all the time, this is also when the tunes.org logs seem to be having problems.
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2018-05-15T13:20:32Z Murii: Can I delete an index from a vector?
2018-05-15T13:20:47Z loke: Murii: No.
2018-05-15T13:20:48Z beach: No.
2018-05-15T13:20:54Z loke: Well, you can manually rearrange it.
2018-05-15T13:20:58Z Murii: right
2018-05-15T13:21:00Z Murii: okay :)
2018-05-15T13:21:14Z beach: Murii: Then it would not be a vector.  It would be an "editable sequence".
2018-05-15T13:21:29Z beach: Or at least that's what I call it in my book.
2018-05-15T13:21:29Z Murii: thought so too but wanted to be 100% sure
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2018-05-15T13:22:10Z beach: Murii: But you can use Flexichain, a library that implements a version of editable sequences.
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2018-05-15T13:23:31Z Murii: beach-  what about hashmaps?
2018-05-15T13:23:44Z Murii: there it  makes sense to be able to remove a key,right?
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2018-05-15T13:24:15Z beach: Sure.
2018-05-15T13:24:51Z beach: But that is non a sequence like a vector is.  But maybe you don't need that.
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2018-05-15T13:25:09Z Murii: yes, I know that
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2018-05-15T13:33:44Z shka: well, you kinda can, but that would be linear time depending on size of the vector
2018-05-15T13:34:00Z shka: and vector would need to have fill-pointer
2018-05-15T13:34:06Z shka: or else you have to copy
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2018-05-15T13:44:07Z beach: Well, if it doesn't matter whether it is a sequence, you can do it in constant time, at least amortized.  You can copy the last element to the place you want to delete, and then "shorten" the vector by moving the fill pointer.
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2018-05-15T13:45:17Z shka: yes
2018-05-15T13:45:36Z shka: but you will not have order
2018-05-15T13:46:24Z beach: That's what I meant by it not being a sequence.  Something that Murii seemed to suggest by asking about the hash map.
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2018-05-15T13:48:49Z shka: ah, ok
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2018-05-15T14:49:25Z jmercouris: schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
2018-05-15T14:49:28Z jmercouris: schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
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2018-05-15T15:08:02Z pjb: Murii: you can do: (let ((v (vector 1 2 3 4 5)) (i 2)) (vector-delete (aref v i) v :start i :end (1+ i))) #| --> #(1 2 4 5) |#
2018-05-15T15:08:22Z pjb: it's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:vector-delete
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2018-05-15T15:38:07Z jmercouris: So, I had this issue I was fighting for about 10 minutes, apparently capitalized system names cause all sorts of issues
2018-05-15T15:38:15Z jmercouris: this appears to be true at least on OSX
2018-05-15T15:38:17Z jmercouris: is this known behavior?
2018-05-15T15:38:22Z jmercouris: or is something misconfigured on my end?
2018-05-15T15:40:41Z pjb: OSX file systems by defaults are case insensitive.
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2018-05-15T15:40:51Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'm aware of that
2018-05-15T15:40:57Z jmercouris: I am talking about the system name inside the file
2018-05-15T15:41:21Z jmercouris: It seemed to work with System.asd containing a definition like `(defsystem :system` but not `(defsystem :System`
2018-05-15T15:41:31Z pjb: The problem might come from quicklisp.  Since it accepts both :foo and "foo" as system name, it's better to avoid capitalized system names.
2018-05-15T15:41:38Z pjb: (eq :System  :system) #| --> t |#
2018-05-15T15:42:20Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if I am on AFS yet, I think I'm still on HFS+
2018-05-15T15:42:21Z pjb: and if not, then remember that most people actively write code that breaks when the readtable-case is not :upcase.
2018-05-15T15:42:52Z jmercouris: seems I am indeed on APFS, but case sensitive still disabled
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2018-05-15T15:43:03Z sjl: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Loading-a-system.html#Loading-a-system
2018-05-15T15:43:11Z sjl: Note that the canonical name of a system is a string, conventionally lowercase. A system name can also be specified as a symbol (including a keyword), in which case its symbol-name is taken and lowercased. The name must be a suitable value for the :name initarg to make-pathname in whatever filesystem the system is to be found.
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2018-05-15T15:43:42Z jmercouris: Right, seems like it should give at least a warning when an uppercase system name is used
2018-05-15T15:43:56Z pjb: So the short answer is don't name the file with mixed case. Rename it System.asd. Also, note how funny Apple developers are: you cannot mv System.asd system.asd because there's already a file named system.asd (it's System.asd).
2018-05-15T15:44:06Z pjb: So: mv System.asd s && mv s system.asd
2018-05-15T15:44:17Z sjl: jmercouris: ASDF can't know whether you uppercase the symbol by the time the reader gets done with it
2018-05-15T15:44:28Z jmercouris: yeah, I've noted that, it is a little annoying having to rename the file twice
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2018-05-15T15:44:51Z sjl: (assuming you're using the default readtable-case)
2018-05-15T15:44:54Z jmercouris: fair enough
2018-05-15T15:45:14Z jmercouris: are there any linter tools in lisp? as standalone tools to statitically inspect lisp?
2018-05-15T15:45:44Z jmercouris: without necessarily loading the code into a lisp image, but just studying it as an intermediate representation, an AST or something
2018-05-15T15:45:57Z jmercouris: not sure if I am explaining what I am thinking correctly
2018-05-15T15:46:11Z pjb: There's an old linter tool, yes.
2018-05-15T15:46:20Z Xach: lisp-critic does some simple analysis
2018-05-15T15:46:28Z sjl: jmercouris: basically: ASDF gets a system name of :SYSTEM, says "this is a symbol, but system names are strings, so I'll (string-downcase (symbol-name ...)) it, and look up `system.asd`"
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2018-05-15T15:46:58Z pjb: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/util/lang/lisp/code/tools/lint/0.html
2018-05-15T15:47:14Z pjb: There's also a sbcl linter: https://github.com/fukamachi/sblint
2018-05-15T15:47:23Z pjb: How silly…
2018-05-15T15:48:02Z phoe: jmercouris: the best linter for Common Lisp code is your compiler. Read all the warnings and notes it produces for you.
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2018-05-15T15:49:02Z pjb: (incf phoe)
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2018-05-15T15:49:27Z sjl: Yeah, that gets you pretty far
2018-05-15T15:49:42Z jmercouris: I'm not saying I just ignore warnings and notes :D
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2018-05-15T15:53:07Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, but you mean static analysis. It isn't really something done often in Lisp except for debugging purposes (when you have code walkers and such).
2018-05-15T15:53:58Z phoe: The most advanced Common Lisp code analysis tool that is able to produce the most useful information about your code is your compiler. No other CL tool will be as complete as it is.
2018-05-15T15:54:07Z phoe: s/it is/the compilers are
2018-05-15T15:55:54Z phoe: Generally, you can't static-analyze Lisp code without doing all the work that a compiler does, because we have a Turing-complete reader, a Turing-complete macroexpander, and a Turing-complete compiler.
2018-05-15T15:56:16Z phoe: That you can program using reader macros, (usual) macros, and compiler macros.
2018-05-15T15:56:41Z phoe: And once your static analysis tool does all of that work, it's not a static analysis tool anymore. It's a compiler.
2018-05-15T15:57:03Z knobo: One thing that is frustrating with local-time, is day-of-week starts from 0 which means sunday.
2018-05-15T15:57:52Z phoe: knobo: the only more frustrating thing I could imagine is 0 meaning Monday.
2018-05-15T15:58:59Z flip214: knobo: but that's okay, because day 1 is monday - and day 7 would be sunday again....
2018-05-15T15:59:26Z _death: week starts on Sunday here ;)
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2018-05-15T16:01:37Z flip214: "Monday begin on Saturday" - a great book!
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2018-05-15T16:03:44Z knobo: if you (adjust-timestamp some-tuesday (offset :day-of-week) day) where day is :monday or :sunday, then  you get two different week numbers.
2018-05-15T16:04:12Z knobo: If you adjust :day-of-week, then week number should be the same. not different.
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2018-05-15T16:04:38Z knobo: I mean (adjust-timestamp some-tuesday (offset :day-of-week day))
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2018-05-15T16:05:28Z knobo: Help me understand how that is a great idea, please.
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2018-05-15T16:11:22Z flip214: knobo: see also the week-number confusion.  http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/04/20/iso/
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2018-05-15T16:22:00Z _death: flip214: the point (alphabetical order instead of likelihood-of-use order) is ok, but the consequence seems a bit theoretical.. I don't remember ever seeing use of %G in the wild
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2018-05-15T16:27:04Z _death: and of course alphabetical order is useful for reference and when the manpage comes in print..
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2018-05-15T16:43:49Z sjl: _death: %G instead of %Y took down twitter's API a while back https://twitter.com/mattklein123/status/984587432833069056
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2018-05-15T16:45:37Z Beepy: clhs logcount
2018-05-15T16:45:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logcou.htm
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2018-05-15T16:48:59Z _death: sjl: heh, thanks..
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2018-05-15T16:51:37Z _death: sjl: interesting that both posts are so close in time
2018-05-15T16:51:43Z Bike: sms debugging... oh no.
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2018-05-15T16:52:47Z sjl: _death: are you sure one's not a week later than you think ;)
2018-05-15T16:55:48Z _death: seems twitter doesn't bother displaying the year by default..
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2018-05-15T17:17:36Z shka_: how do i prevent with-output-to-file to remove file in case of error?
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2018-05-15T17:19:32Z _death: handle the error
2018-05-15T17:21:00Z _death: or have your own operator that doesn't pass :abort t to close in that case..
2018-05-15T17:21:24Z Beepy: shka_, are you working with racket?
2018-05-15T17:21:44Z shka_: Beepy: not at the moment
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2018-05-15T17:22:03Z Beepy: clhs with-output-to-file
2018-05-15T17:22:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for with-output-to-file.
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2018-05-15T17:22:38Z _death: likely alexandria's
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2018-05-15T17:32:51Z Beepy: Which XML library is generally used?
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2018-05-15T17:33:34Z pjb: depends.
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2018-05-15T17:33:57Z pjb: For little things, I use sxml.  For bigger stuff, cxml.  Others are possible too.
2018-05-15T17:35:42Z pjb: This is why cliki.net is handy. https://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=xml
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2018-05-15T17:41:24Z Xach: Beepy: i like to use cxml.
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2018-05-15T17:45:45Z Beepy: thanks for the input, Xach and pjb.
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2018-05-15T19:23:39Z comborico1611: MAPCAR is short for what?
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2018-05-15T19:23:50Z Bike: map cars
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2018-05-15T19:24:54Z pfdietz: Those map names are largely historical.
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2018-05-15T19:31:24Z comborico1611: I see.  "Map" as in apply.
2018-05-15T19:31:26Z comborico1611: Thanks!
2018-05-15T19:31:27Z jmercouris: oh, I just realized it is referring to (car), that makes a lot of sense
2018-05-15T19:31:42Z jmercouris: I just always accepted the functionality without thinking too hard about the name
2018-05-15T19:31:44Z Bike: map as in map
2018-05-15T19:31:50Z comborico1611: Yeah, I was confused by teh "car" part, too.
2018-05-15T19:32:02Z edgar-rft: google finds mapcar: <https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P1V8EqdesHM/maxresdefault.jpg>
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2018-05-15T19:32:29Z jmercouris: edgar-rft: lol, that's great
2018-05-15T19:32:32Z comborico1611: Bike: I must not be familiar with "map" term.
2018-05-15T19:32:48Z jmercouris: comborico1611: It's a common cs term, usually means to apply across a set
2018-05-15T19:33:17Z comborico1611: jmercouris: I see.  Thanks!
2018-05-15T19:33:17Z jmercouris: at least when considered as a function
2018-05-15T19:33:28Z Bike: '(mathematics, transitive, followed by a "to" phrase) To act as a function on something, taking it to something else.'
2018-05-15T19:33:33Z Bike: not the most comprehensible, unfortunately
2018-05-15T19:33:35Z comborico1611: Yeah, when I hear "map, I think hash table.
2018-05-15T19:33:45Z jmercouris: map does have the other meaning as well, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative_array
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2018-05-15T19:34:48Z Bike: well, it's like a hash table too
2018-05-15T19:34:55Z Bike: a hash table "maps" the set of keys to the set of values
2018-05-15T19:35:08Z jmercouris: Bike: You just blew my mind
2018-05-15T19:35:20Z jmercouris: so many years, and that never ocurred to me
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2018-05-15T19:35:31Z Bike: wait until you hear about cartography
2018-05-15T19:37:03Z jmercouris: comborico1611: when pfdietz said "Those names are largely historical", they were referring to car, cdr, caar, cadr etc
2018-05-15T19:37:16Z jmercouris: comborico1611: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_car_c.htm
2018-05-15T19:37:52Z jmercouris: please see the examples at the bottom of the link
2018-05-15T19:37:58Z jmercouris: you can play around with them to get a feel
2018-05-15T19:38:59Z comborico1611: jmercouris: Oh yes,  I'm familiar with those tree-walking terms.
2018-05-15T19:39:05Z comborico1611: Thanks, though!
2018-05-15T19:41:31Z jmercouris: Seems like you are progressing well then, awesome!
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2018-05-15T19:44:09Z pjb: comborico1611: the other names are more interesting: mapc mapcar mapcan mapl maplist mapcon; mapc and mapl are like mapcar and maplist, but they return the first list argument, not consing a new list.  mapcan and mapcon concatenate resulting lists (using nconc, thus mutating those result lists, stitching them together).  Of course, the difference between the first set and the second set is that the first set works on the elements 
2018-05-15T19:44:09Z pjb: lists, while the second set works on the lists and successive rest*.
2018-05-15T19:46:08Z pjb: comborico1611: of course, the mere MAP function is also nice, since it can work on sequences in general: (map 'vector (function list) '(a b c) #(1 2 3) "!:.") #| --> #((a 1 #\!) (b 2 #\:) (c 3 #\.)) |#
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2018-05-15T19:48:00Z pjb: (map 'vector (lambda (&rest chars) (format nil "~{~C~}" chars)) "hello" "world" "keybd" "avian") #| --> #("hwka" "eoev" "lryi" "llba" "oddn") |#
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2018-05-15T20:52:06Z jmercouris: outside of the template language within caveman, what's the preferred way of generating HTML?
2018-05-15T20:52:24Z jmercouris: I'm looking for something like weblocks with-html
2018-05-15T20:54:23Z jmercouris: I see cl-who within the readme...
2018-05-15T20:54:35Z jmercouris: maybe I'm overthinking it, perhaps I should just use that to serialize
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2018-05-15T20:57:59Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: check out spinneret from ruricolist
2018-05-15T20:58:13Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: there's no "preferred way" really, but spinneret I liked
2018-05-15T20:59:08Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: what do you mean "serialize"? if you want to create JSON you can use "jonathan" (or other JSON libs); if you want to "serialize" in the strict sense, that is, convert lisp objects to byte arrays, take a look at "conspack" (cl-conspack)
2018-05-15T20:59:34Z jmercouris: defunkydrummer: I mean that the lisp objects should have a standard html presentation
2018-05-15T20:59:43Z jmercouris: and that when outputting them to html, they should conform to this presentation
2018-05-15T21:00:26Z jmercouris: like a generic function could be (serialize-to-html) and it could specialize on the type of element
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2018-05-15T21:00:32Z jmercouris: does that make sense?
2018-05-15T21:02:21Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: do you mean you want to convert certain lisp objects to html form, so they can be displayed?
2018-05-15T21:03:05Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: if they are CLOS objects, you can perhaps define a generic function to-html(o), and implement it for all the classes you want to convert to HTML; the actual HTML creation can be done with spinneret
2018-05-15T21:03:12Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: etc (there are many many ways of course)
2018-05-15T21:03:48Z jmercouris: defunkydrummer: Yes, I mean that, and I was also thinking about what you are describing
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2018-05-15T21:04:09Z jmercouris: each widget should be responsible for serializing itself
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2018-05-15T21:17:18Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: take a look at the documentation of spinneret, it's really easy to use
2018-05-15T21:18:37Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: also note that caveman is only one in many web frameworks for CL, there's also UCW (uncommon web), reblocks (rewrite of weblocks), lucerne, etc
2018-05-15T21:19:20Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: or you can just shun frameworks altogether and write directly for an HTTP server lib like hunchentoot, Woo, teepeedee2, etc
2018-05-15T21:19:34Z jmercouris: defunkydrummer: I did spend a lot of time looking for Cl web frameworks and didn't come up with those, thanks for the info
2018-05-15T21:19:44Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: or you can use Clack and Lack which are abstraction layers on top of web servers, so your application can run over any of the aforementioned servers
2018-05-15T21:20:05Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'm not trying to do anything super crazy
2018-05-15T21:20:14Z jmercouris: just trying to make some server software, so having a framework can save a lot of time
2018-05-15T21:20:18Z jmercouris: s/server/survey
2018-05-15T21:20:23Z defunkydrummer: jmercouris: and if what you are doing is just a minimal proof of concept, take a look at my own mini-framework "ninglex" which is basically fukamachi's "ningle" with some missing pieces on top
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2018-05-15T21:22:03Z jmercouris: defunkydrummer: it's tricky designing a web framework isn't it, balancing which features and opinions to make something usable
2018-05-15T21:22:11Z |||||||||||||||| is now known as bitch
2018-05-15T21:22:31Z jmercouris: anyways, cool stuff, I've starred your repository to take a deeper look later, thanks
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2018-05-16T01:31:40Z dtornabene: so am I correct in thinking that Clack only uses roswell for the commandline launching script(s)?
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2018-05-16T01:37:36Z PuercoPop: dtornabene: if you are wondering that if you need to use roswell to use clack, then the answer is no
2018-05-16T01:39:48Z dtornabene: sweet! that was indeed that implicit question, thanks for answering!
2018-05-16T01:40:00Z dtornabene: PuercoPop:
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2018-05-16T02:45:09Z aeth: (not (mismatch #(1 2 3) #(4 5 6 1 2 3) :start2 3 :end2 6)) will generally be more efficient than this, right? (equalp #(1 2 3) (subseq #(4 5 6 1 2 3) 3 6))
2018-05-16T02:45:43Z aeth: Is there another way that's even better?
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2018-05-16T02:47:36Z Bike: loop over the elements yourself
2018-05-16T02:48:16Z White_Flame: hold these digits as a fixnum and mask
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2018-05-16T02:54:38Z Bike: parallelize it
2018-05-16T02:56:57Z aeth: I guess I could use define-vop to SIMD it.
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2018-05-16T03:04:16Z defunkydrummer: aeth: equalp is overkill here, if they are fixnums i think eq would do the job. Also, i'd rather explicitely create simple-vectors of type fixnum, instead of using the #() reader macro.
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2018-05-16T03:05:35Z defunkydrummer: aeth: (eq if you want to loop over the elements yourself.) I might be wrong, though.
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2018-05-16T07:03:03Z xificurC: does anyone know how to see the contents of a Lisp_Object in gdb?
2018-05-16T07:03:44Z xificurC: I'm fighting a weird emacs crash, it just stops with exit code 15. A fresh install on a freshly installed ubuntu 18.04. Pure emacs runs fine but adding spacemacs to it crashes with this weird error. I'm surfing the stacktrace in gdb to find out what's causing it. http://ix.io/1aoa
2018-05-16T07:04:39Z xificurC: there's a call to call_process and I'm trying to find out what the arguments are
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2018-05-16T07:27:01Z edgar-rft: xificurC, in #emacs you might have better chances for an answer than here
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2018-05-16T07:27:48Z xificurC: edgar-rft: hehe, autopilot made me join here. Excuse the mistake
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2018-05-16T09:22:52Z jmercouris: how can I hash a string in common-lisp?
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2018-05-16T09:24:29Z jmercouris: I'd really rather not write my own hashing function
2018-05-16T09:24:46Z _death: why? it's xb
2018-05-16T09:24:54Z _death: er, around 5 lines
2018-05-16T09:25:08Z jmercouris: I prefer to use something in the standard lib more often than inventing something
2018-05-16T09:25:29Z jmercouris: I guess I could write a hashing function, but then I'll have to consider collisions, etc
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2018-05-16T09:26:12Z _death: it depends on what you need the hash for
2018-05-16T09:26:30Z jmercouris: I need the hash to serve as a unique identifier for elements in a survey
2018-05-16T09:26:44Z jmercouris: so each survey question has a description, I would like to hash this description and treat it as an ID
2018-05-16T09:27:10Z jmercouris: the survey is served on a web page, so I can't just use a hashmap
2018-05-16T09:27:19Z jmercouris: I have to hash myself and then reassociate the values later
2018-05-16T09:28:16Z _death: so ironclad..
2018-05-16T09:28:44Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/f_sxhash.htm maybe
2018-05-16T09:28:52Z jmercouris: seems quite a dependency to bring in
2018-05-16T09:29:19Z dim: (sxhash "string") is 3782781368
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2018-05-16T09:29:29Z jmercouris: Yeah, seems to work in SBCL
2018-05-16T09:29:32Z jmercouris: even if I make new strings
2018-05-16T09:29:33Z dim: that's the function used internally by hash-table IIRC
2018-05-16T09:29:45Z jmercouris: thanks for the tip
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2018-05-16T09:30:40Z _death: there's no guarantee of a unique value for each string.. in fact it's quite the opposite, unless you have a bounded set of strings so you can build a perfect hash function for them
2018-05-16T09:31:01Z jmercouris: agreed, but it's probably good enough for my case
2018-05-16T09:31:19Z jmercouris: I will only have about 10 questions at a time per survey, the liklihood of collision is very low
2018-05-16T09:31:20Z _death: sxhash is not a good idea for this case, because it's implementation dependent
2018-05-16T09:31:37Z jmercouris: it is for my own application that I will deploy though
2018-05-16T09:31:46Z jmercouris: though I guess others could use it with mixed results on other implementations
2018-05-16T09:31:50Z _death: so what's the point of hashing them instead of just using some autoincrement
2018-05-16T09:31:50Z jmercouris: damnit, maybe I should use ironclad
2018-05-16T09:32:15Z jmercouris: autoincrement would require me to keep state in between the rendering and receipt of a request
2018-05-16T09:32:28Z jmercouris: sorry, I don't mean receipt of a request, I mean submission of a survey
2018-05-16T09:32:47Z jmercouris: though that could be fixed with some routing so that the submit button contains information about which survey the user is submitting
2018-05-16T09:32:55Z jmercouris: so yeah, autoincrement could also work
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2018-05-16T09:34:10Z _death: how would you go from hash to question without state?
2018-05-16T09:34:37Z jmercouris: I was planning on doing a search
2018-05-16T09:34:52Z jmercouris: it wasn't well thought out in hindsight
2018-05-16T09:35:04Z jmercouris: I just got tunnel vision, should have spent more time thinking about it instead of x-ying myself
2018-05-16T09:35:48Z _death: if your questions are kept in order, an index into them would make an ID as well.. if you only append questions it could be ok
2018-05-16T09:36:55Z jmercouris: that could work as well
2018-05-16T09:37:19Z jmercouris: let me first do a really basic implementation that works for me, and if anyone else ever uses the software, I'll consider making it more robust
2018-05-16T09:39:02Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: sxhash
2018-05-16T09:40:05Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: Indeed, but I'll be pursuing a different solution, I hadn't thought about my problem well at all, thanks anyway!
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2018-05-16T09:53:36Z loke: jmercouris: "unique" and "hash" are not compatible.
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2018-05-16T09:54:37Z jmercouris: loke: yes, when reducing the amount of data, it is not possible to be unique
2018-05-16T09:54:55Z loke: jmercouris: When _increasing_ you mean?
2018-05-16T09:54:56Z jmercouris: because the "hash space" is smaller than the "data space"
2018-05-16T09:55:05Z jmercouris: No, I mean decreasing
2018-05-16T09:55:12Z loke: I mean, for a 64-bit integer, the hash (the integer itself) is unique :-)
2018-05-16T09:55:23Z loke: Expand that to arbitrary sized integers and the hashes are no longer unique.
2018-05-16T09:55:48Z jmercouris: Imagine this, every hash should ideally return a unique item with no collisions
2018-05-16T09:56:03Z jmercouris: if the sequence of possible hashes is less than the amount of possible items, it is impossible
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2018-05-16T09:56:07Z _death: the pigeonhole principle
2018-05-16T09:56:15Z shrdlu68: Principle of bijection.
2018-05-16T09:56:16Z loke: jmercouris: Exactly.
2018-05-16T09:56:35Z loke: jmercouris: Which means as you _increase_ the amount of data, the likelyhood of collisions goes up
2018-05-16T09:56:39Z jmercouris: anyways, I think we could count on no collisions for around 10 items
2018-05-16T09:56:50Z jmercouris: loke: I am talking about the LOSS of information when hashing
2018-05-16T09:56:52Z loke: jmercouris: I wouldn't.
2018-05-16T09:57:07Z jmercouris: so, I said, if we have some large piece of data, the more we reduce it during hashing, the more likely a collision
2018-05-16T09:57:09Z loke: jmercouris: So terminologyu configusion then. I kinda suspected tha.
2018-05-16T09:57:38Z jmercouris: yeah, abstract conversations can be difficult
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2018-05-16T10:04:08Z loke: If SXHASH returns a 32-bit number, you're going to have a roughly one-in-3000 chance of collision on a 4-element list.
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2018-05-16T10:05:40Z jmercouris: I think that's acceptable
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2018-05-16T10:11:38Z _death: I don't understand that statement.. what is a "chance of collision on a 4-element list"
2018-05-16T10:12:17Z jmercouris: Imagine (list "abc" "def" "hij" "klm")
2018-05-16T10:12:23Z jmercouris: now imagine hashing each of those values in the list
2018-05-16T10:12:23Z _death: if there are more than 2^32 possible 4-element lists, the probability of a collision is 1
2018-05-16T10:12:38Z jmercouris: Oh I see your question now
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2018-05-16T10:13:28Z jmercouris: _death: no, because the lists may all be duplicates
2018-05-16T10:13:56Z jmercouris: I am referring to a collision within the list, that is, of the elements in the list, will there be a collision amongst themselves, not amongst all members of all lists
2018-05-16T10:14:29Z jmercouris: so if I have 2^32 lists that are all (list "a" "b" "c" "d"), and it is known that the set "a" "b" "c" "d" does not produce a collision, then it would be fine
2018-05-16T10:14:38Z _death: jmercouris: next time I will M-x pedantic-mode
2018-05-16T10:14:53Z jmercouris: _death: are you calling me pedantic?
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2018-05-16T10:15:06Z _death: jmercouris: I think it's reasonable to assume that I meant distinct lists..
2018-05-16T10:15:23Z jmercouris: That's fine, but my problem spaces does not involve this many distinct lists
2018-05-16T10:15:28Z jmercouris: s/spaces/space
2018-05-16T10:15:40Z jmercouris: so, within the context of my problem, what are you suggesting, is *not* an issue
2018-05-16T10:15:56Z _death: jmercouris: at this point we're not talking about your problem?.. I guess we've reached offtopicness
2018-05-16T10:16:09Z jmercouris: If we are talking about a generalized problem, then your response make sense
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2018-05-16T10:16:22Z jmercouris: if we were talking about my actual problem, we can assume that no survey list will ever reach 2^32 questions long
2018-05-16T10:16:37Z jmercouris: which was my whole point
2018-05-16T10:17:21Z _death: jmercouris: but that's only for the best-case scenario where SXHASH is does its best to be a uniform hash
2018-05-16T10:17:37Z jmercouris: Still, do you think any reasonable survey will be over 100 elements?
2018-05-16T10:18:08Z _death: jmercouris: well, I already explained the issue with sxhash
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2018-05-16T10:19:41Z shka: jmercouris: benchmark on real data
2018-05-16T10:19:51Z _death: better off using crc32 or something :)
2018-05-16T10:19:52Z jmercouris: I don't need to benchmark, I'm not going to use any hashing
2018-05-16T10:20:01Z jmercouris: I'm going to use _death's later suggestion, incrementing
2018-05-16T10:20:15Z shka: ah, good
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2018-05-16T10:29:00Z loke: jmercouris: Actrually, accroding to the birthday paradox, the probability of two elements colliding is arougly sqrt(N). And remember that if you have more than two elements, you have to didivde that by (N-1)!
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2018-05-16T10:31:12Z loke: so for a 10-element list you have an overwhelming chance of collision
2018-05-16T10:31:23Z loke: oops.I I'm getting the numbers wrong
2018-05-16T10:31:28Z jmercouris: Yes, you definitely are
2018-05-16T10:31:29Z loke: but the chanche is still high
2018-05-16T10:31:35Z jmercouris: otherwise hashmaps would be useless over 10 elements
2018-05-16T10:31:44Z jmercouris: they would constantly be cherry picking or whatever to deal with that
2018-05-16T10:31:52Z jmercouris: nobody would ever use them and just stick to arrays
2018-05-16T10:32:16Z jmercouris: is it called cherry picking? I can't remember the strategies for dealing with collisions, it's been so long
2018-05-16T10:32:20Z loke: jmercouris: The probability of a collision for _two_ elements is definititely on the order of sqrt(2^32) for a 32-bit hash
2018-05-16T10:32:40Z loke: where I got it wrong was how this changes for more elemnts.
2018-05-16T10:33:08Z loke: ah
2018-05-16T10:33:34Z loke: exp((-k*(k-1)) / (2*N))
2018-05-16T10:33:39Z loke: http://preshing.com/20110504/hash-collision-probabilities/
2018-05-16T10:33:55Z loke: That page even has a graph for 32-bit hashes
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2018-05-16T10:34:46Z loke: jmercouris: Plug your numbers in there, and you'll see that the chance of collision is much higher than you might think.
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2018-05-16T10:36:51Z jmercouris: seems to be 1 in 100 million
2018-05-16T10:36:53Z jmercouris: I should be okay
2018-05-16T10:37:16Z jmercouris: at any rate, I'm not using a hash
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2018-05-16T10:38:08Z loke: jmercouris: Isn't that the probability that it's _unique_?
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2018-05-16T10:40:04Z jmercouris: I probably read the table wrong :\
2018-05-16T10:40:09Z jmercouris: I'm sorry I'm distracted with something else
2018-05-16T10:40:46Z jmercouris: No, it seems I've read the table correctly
2018-05-16T10:41:15Z jmercouris: http://preshing.com/images/small-probabilities.png
2018-05-16T10:41:42Z jmercouris: if you have 10 32 bit hash values, your probability of collision is 1 in 100 million
2018-05-16T10:42:14Z jmercouris: if I had 77163, in a 32 bit space, it is 1/2
2018-05-16T10:42:29Z jmercouris: assuming even distribution
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2018-05-16T10:46:57Z _death: wouldn't use the term "odds" there
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2018-05-16T10:56:20Z flip214: jmercouris: I#
2018-05-16T10:56:39Z flip214: jmercouris: I'm not sure that SXHASH stays constant when the lisp is restarted...
2018-05-16T10:56:54Z jmercouris: It's fine, it doesn't matter, I am not using SXHASH
2018-05-16T10:57:00Z flip214: so you're giving out some HTML, restart the server, and the clients' values can't be associated any more
2018-05-16T10:57:03Z flip214: oh, okay
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2018-05-16T10:57:31Z _death: clhs sxhash
2018-05-16T10:57:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm
2018-05-16T10:59:11Z dim: does that ring a bell to anyone here: The symbol "*SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCH-FUNCTIONS*" is not external in the ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM package.
2018-05-16T10:59:25Z dim: asdf 3.3.2 and sbcl 1.4.7
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2018-05-16T12:38:14Z Ukari: I have a 'funcallable/cc' and check it with (eq (type-of x) 'funcallable/cc). Then I use a lambda to wrap funcallable/cc, how could i check type of stuff inner the lambda eq funcallable/cc now?
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2018-05-16T12:39:25Z Ukari: could i define sth like the struct funcallable/cc that could called by (funcall x) directly
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2018-05-16T12:46:13Z Ukari: oh i get it, it is a class..
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2018-05-16T12:52:18Z dim: mmm, ql:bundle-systems isn't using the .asd version I want it to
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2018-05-16T12:57:53Z Xach: dim: how can you tell?
2018-05-16T13:00:37Z dim: because the list of :depends-on did change, and the newer items are not taken into account
2018-05-16T13:00:59Z dim: basically I'm makeing a bundle where I want to deal with what's in PWD, not what's in QL
2018-05-16T13:01:25Z dim: (let ((pkgs (append '("pgloader" "buildapp") (getf (read-from-string (uiop:read-file-string (uiop:merge-pathnames* "pgloader.asd" *pwd*))) :depends-on)))) ... (ql:bundle-systems pkgs ...))
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2018-05-16T13:01:40Z dim: that's what I want to do, not sure it should be the default, now that I think about it
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2018-05-16T13:04:31Z dim: FATAL error: system pgloader is out of date
2018-05-16T13:04:39Z dim: oh. that's news to me, never had that before.
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2018-05-16T13:06:32Z dim: it's ASDF/SESSION:CONSULT-ASDF-CACHE complaining now, in a call to ASDF/SYSTEM:SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME, interesting
2018-05-16T13:06:39Z dim: (I'm using that for regression tests)
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2018-05-16T14:35:18Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2018-05-16T14:39:12Z oleo: heya beach o/
2018-05-16T14:39:51Z schweers: Hi beach
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2018-05-16T14:47:43Z kqr: may or may not be the right place to ask: I use Emacs and SLIME, and evaluate things in SLIME with C-c C-c. this works for pretty much everything except (in-package :foo) declarations. is there a way to get it to work even with those?
2018-05-16T14:48:35Z Bike: what do you mean by it not working?
2018-05-16T14:49:06Z kqr: it does not change which package SLIME is in. I have to go over to that buffer and manually enter (in-package :foo) for the change to take effect
2018-05-16T14:50:16Z Xach: kqr: I use C-c ~ for that.
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2018-05-16T14:50:34Z Xach: It syncs the repl package with the file package
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2018-05-16T14:51:46Z kqr: hm. that's good. one problem down! but I have been dishonest with you. the full problem does not involve interactive use of SLIME. rather, it's an automated Org document export where Babel evaluates common lisp code and – apparently – does not respect (in-package :foo) either
2018-05-16T14:52:04Z Xach: I can't help with that one
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2018-05-16T14:54:31Z kqr: i think I solved it, though. apparently there's a parallel to C-c ~ in the Org export – a :package header argument
2018-05-16T14:54:42Z Xach: Cool
2018-05-16T14:54:43Z kqr: thanks for the useful tip, though, I have been missing something like C-c ~ but not bothered enough to find it!
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2018-05-16T14:55:12Z Xach: I have to say I use ,ch-p in the repl a lot more than C-c ~. But when I think of it I use it.
2018-05-16T14:55:15Z schweers: Xach: thank you for the tip with C-c ~.  I did not know that, I always did C-c M-p, which can be annoying if one has packages foo and foo-test or foo and foo/test
2018-05-16T14:55:30Z Xach lives to serve
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2018-05-16T14:57:11Z schweers: I never used a comma command in the repl.  does this make me a bad person/lisper?
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2018-05-16T14:58:21Z Xach: schweers: inefficient maybe? i find them very handy and use them 1000000 times per day
2018-05-16T14:59:37Z schweers: Xach: they are slime specific, right?
2018-05-16T14:59:52Z Xach: schweers: yes, but most repls have shortcuts like them
2018-05-16T15:00:07Z schweers: I’m asking because I want to find documentation on those
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2018-05-16T15:00:50Z Xach: it is part of slime, yes
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2018-05-16T15:02:57Z schweers: push-package looks funny.  I don’t know if I’ll ever use it, but I’ll try to keep an eye out for when it may be useful
2018-05-16T15:04:16Z schweers: anyway, thanks for reminding me to look into this feature :)
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2018-05-16T15:06:09Z antoszka: I keep wanting to read *all* the current SLIME manual one day.
2018-05-16T15:06:12Z antoszka: I never did that :)
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2018-05-16T15:09:25Z rumbler31: antoszka: it doesn't take that long
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2018-05-16T15:09:52Z ecraven: you can even read all the source in a day, I think
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2018-05-16T15:10:44Z ecraven: sloccount says it's 18k lines of lisp code (though I don't know how many of those might be auto-generated)
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2018-05-16T15:30:58Z mfiano: Or, if you use Sly, sly-mrepl-sync
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2018-05-16T15:37:51Z ealfonso`: does anyone have any experience with websockets on CL? I've heard about hunchensockets and clws. any recommendation between the two?
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2018-05-16T15:40:36Z loke: ealfonso`: Yes.
2018-05-16T15:40:41Z loke: ealfonso`: Potato uses it.
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2018-05-16T15:42:23Z ealfonso`: loke which one?
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2018-05-16T15:43:09Z loke: ealfonso`: hunchsocket
2018-05-16T15:43:47Z loke: The implementation is here: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/ws-server.lisp
2018-05-16T15:44:57Z ealfonso`: loke thanks. I've heard that hunchensocket "is not recommended for production use" https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23855626/websockets-from-common-lisp do you know why someone might think this?
2018-05-16T15:46:08Z loke: ealfonso`: I never heard that. I've used hunchensocket for production for years
2018-05-16T15:46:25Z loke: I don't know if there is an issue with lots of connections though, I've only tested with a few hundred on a single process.
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2018-05-16T15:48:18Z ealfonso`: loke sounds good. thanks
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2018-05-16T15:49:05Z loke: I think I've started 1000 clients on one process. That worked.
2018-05-16T15:49:20Z loke: But it was running off a laptop and I wasn't able to saturate the connections. But the system worked.
2018-05-16T15:49:33Z loke: I'm using it for a web-chat application.
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2018-05-16T15:50:41Z ealfonso`: loke thanks, I'll give it a try.
2018-05-16T15:51:17Z loke: Good luch
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2018-05-16T15:51:25Z loke: hunchensocket is really easy to use
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2018-05-16T16:09:27Z Xach: I think people define "production" in curious ways sometimes
2018-05-16T16:09:31Z Xach: Like the word "professional"
2018-05-16T16:09:46Z Xach: Different things to different people and some are less flexible about needs and context.
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2018-05-16T16:24:39Z drmeister: What are the best resources for teaching a couple of undergraduates with little to no programming experience Common Lisp?
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2018-05-16T16:26:28Z drmeister: They are committed for the summer - they already have a working Common Lisp environment (Cando/Clasp in a jupyter notebook).   Emacs is being installed today.
2018-05-16T16:26:53Z Xach: drmeister: I like Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming very much. The latter is dense but rewarding.
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2018-05-16T16:27:42Z Josh_2: drmeister: if programming noobs then gentle introduction to symbolic computation
2018-05-16T16:27:43Z drmeister: We've started with Practical Common Lisp and we have a copy of Land of Lisp - we have found a couple of web tutorials and we are running a boot camp.
2018-05-16T16:27:55Z drmeister: I'm casting about for other resources that I'm not aware of.
2018-05-16T16:28:48Z drmeister: Two of them are programming noobs, the other two have Python and C experience.
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2018-05-16T16:31:01Z Josh_2: When I was a nub I found PCL too hard, but Gentle introduction to symbolic computation was perfect when I had no programming experience
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2018-05-16T16:33:49Z sjl: I also recommend Gentle first, then Practical, then go make things for a while, then maybe PAIP or CLR
2018-05-16T16:34:21Z ealfonso`: I never read any Common Lisp book. I started with emacs lisp and the emacs lisp manual, which is very user and beginer friendly. It wasn't hard to transition to CL. I may still be a noob though
2018-05-16T16:34:52Z Xach: ealfonso`: i think it would be helpful to read common lisp books and code in that case.
2018-05-16T16:35:14Z sjl: also throw "watch the SICP lectures" somewhere in there.  not strictly about CL, but still really helpful
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2018-05-16T16:36:19Z Xach: i wouldn't recommend being too awful literal in translating its lessons
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2018-05-16T16:37:51Z antoszka: From what I know now, I'd recommend starting with PAIP. Then using PCL (and Edi's excellent recipes) as a *practical* guide/reference.
2018-05-16T16:38:08Z antoszka: Gentle might be a little too gentle for some.
2018-05-16T16:38:44Z antoszka: Scheme related stuff (PAIP lectures, * Schemer books) is good, too, but doesn't pertain to Common Lisp that much.
2018-05-16T16:38:54Z antoszka: The similarity is very superficial.
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2018-05-16T16:39:20Z Xach: I think it can be helpful to learn about new ways of thinking about problems and solutions
2018-05-16T16:39:43Z phoe: +1 for PCL and Book of Edi
2018-05-16T16:39:51Z phoe: Also be sure to throw them at #lisp and #clnoobs
2018-05-16T16:39:58Z antoszka: Oh yes.
2018-05-16T16:40:08Z antoszka: They might have to learn IRC first ;)
2018-05-16T16:40:13Z phoe: IRC is simple
2018-05-16T16:40:16Z phoe: It's just a multiplayer notepad
2018-05-16T16:40:20Z antoszka: But it's not hipchat.
2018-05-16T16:40:26Z antoszka: Nor Slack.
2018-05-16T16:40:32Z jmercouris: they can use IRC via the web client
2018-05-16T16:40:46Z jmercouris: it's not challenging to learn IRC, if they can't learn it, they won't have much luck with CL
2018-05-16T16:40:53Z phoe: ^
2018-05-16T16:41:04Z phoe: I giggled reading this
2018-05-16T16:41:22Z phoe: no, seriously, freenode's webchat is good enough for starters
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2018-05-16T16:53:11Z ealfonso`: Xach what if you look at a random sample of my code https://pastebin.com/GCKGpn2B and tell me how bad you think it is and whether I still need to read common lisp books?
2018-05-16T16:54:16Z jmercouris: ealfonso`: That's not a measure of "skill"
2018-05-16T16:54:32Z jmercouris: a measure of skill would be simple, are you able to do anything you'd like to do with the language in a timely manner?
2018-05-16T16:54:36Z Josh_2: ealfonso`: dropping )) onto the next line EEEEEW
2018-05-16T16:56:13Z Xach: ealfonso`: I think reading books and code would helpl
2018-05-16T16:56:16Z Xach: help, rather.
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2018-05-16T16:58:49Z ealfonso`: Josh_2 yeah, I did that while making lots of changes to a defstruct, I wanted git commits to be one-line changes, then forgot to close it.
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2018-05-16T17:01:03Z ealfonso`: jmercouris I was able to write this restful front-end to my C library in about a week: http://ec2-54-213-11-217.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com/
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2018-05-16T17:01:54Z jmercouris: I have no way of judging that, nor is it my place to, I'm not an employer considering you nor am I condeming
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2018-05-16T17:02:00Z jmercouris: I think if you are happy, that is the best reward
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2018-05-16T17:02:10Z ealfonso`: jmercouris I'm happy
2018-05-16T17:02:15Z jmercouris: then you are doing just fine :)
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2018-05-16T17:02:37Z jmercouris: don't worry about whether you are "pro" or not, when it comes time, and you need to learn more to get something done, you will learn it
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2018-05-16T17:03:53Z ealfonso`: jmercouris I just don't think reading dense programming books is necessarily always the best approach. some people might learn more quickly by doing
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2018-05-16T17:04:17Z jmercouris: I wouldn't describe the books on Lisp as dense, but they aren't really engaging
2018-05-16T17:04:29Z jmercouris: I find the literature on programming books in general to be rather dry
2018-05-16T17:05:10Z comborico1611: As long as I don't get lost, I consider the programming book a win.  :-)  Going to lunch!
2018-05-16T17:05:16Z Xach: If you rely only on learning by doing and teaching yourself, you will have gaps. It is possible to learn on your own and accomplish many great things. But I think you can do greater things by reading some other stuff.
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2018-05-16T17:05:52Z comborico1611: (That is very true for playing guitar, too.)
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2018-05-16T17:06:02Z jmercouris: there will be gaps in your knowledge only if you learn *just enough* to accomplish what you set out to do. If you explore the topics of things that you use, you shouldn't have many gaps
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2018-05-16T17:57:39Z araly: hello everyone, I'm having a question about CLOS, using the lispcord library if that helps. There's a class called guild which has a id slot, and I have instances of a class called available-guild, which inherits from the guild class. I'm trying to access the id slot of my object, but it says that the slot is missing from the object
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2018-05-16T17:58:25Z Bike: sounds like it shouldn't happen. maybe paste a bit of code?
2018-05-16T17:58:27Z araly: all inherited slots are accessible from the same accessor right ?
2018-05-16T17:58:33Z jmercouris: Yes
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2018-05-16T17:59:40Z araly: (slot-value (lc:guild msg) 'id) is my bit of code, (lc:guild msg) returns an instance of available-guild
2018-05-16T18:00:34Z Bike: are you sure id is in the right package?
2018-05-16T18:00:35Z White_Flame: are you sure 'id is from the right package?
2018-05-16T18:00:51Z araly: the class available-guild inherits from the class guild, and the class guild has a (id :initarg :id :type snowflake :accessor id) slot
2018-05-16T18:00:58Z sjl: araly: what they said.  you should be using the accessor function though, not calling `slot-value` directly
2018-05-16T18:01:11Z sjl: (lc:id (lc:guild msg))
2018-05-16T18:01:20Z araly: I'm calling 'id because that's what I see in the :accessor value
2018-05-16T18:01:22Z jmercouris: is there an echo in here?
2018-05-16T18:01:23Z araly: okay I'll try that
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2018-05-16T18:02:02Z sjl: araly: if you're not importing the `id` symbol from that package, then you're trying to effectively do (slot-value ... 'some-other-package:id) instead of (slot-value ... 'lc:id)
2018-05-16T18:02:03Z araly: there's no (lc:id)
2018-05-16T18:02:08Z Bike: :accessor makes a reader and writer function. you're not using those, you're using slot-value
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2018-05-16T18:02:37Z araly: okay, I thought slot-value could get the value from the reader accesso
2018-05-16T18:02:42Z araly: accessor*
2018-05-16T18:03:07Z sjl: slot-value is a low-level function.  if there's an accessor, you should generally prefer using that.
2018-05-16T18:03:18Z Bike: the only "reader accessor" is a function
2018-05-16T18:04:00Z araly: which function is that, something from CLOS or something that should exist in the package ?
2018-05-16T18:04:08Z jmercouris: araly: it's usually defined in the defclass
2018-05-16T18:04:17Z Bike: the function would be called id
2018-05-16T18:04:19Z jmercouris: if you look at the definition there should be :accessor attribute
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2018-05-16T18:04:22Z Bike: that's what :accessor id means
2018-05-16T18:04:23Z nirved: if it's really needed (slot-value (lc:guild msg) 'lc::id)
2018-05-16T18:04:29Z Bike: slot-value uses the slot name instead
2018-05-16T18:04:33Z jmercouris: so you'd do something like (id some-object)
2018-05-16T18:04:35Z sjl: araly: I don't know what the lc package is.  Is it a nickname you're defining for one of the lispcord packages?
2018-05-16T18:04:41Z jmercouris: to retrieve some-object's id
2018-05-16T18:04:52Z araly: lc is a shortcut for the lispcord package I think
2018-05-16T18:05:05Z jmercouris: you think? whose code is this? someone elses?
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2018-05-16T18:05:18Z sjl: araly: okay, so here's where guild is defined: https://github.com/lispcord/lispcord/blob/master/src/classes/guild.lisp
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2018-05-16T18:05:59Z araly: yeah I see that, that's where I looked the accessor up, but there isn't anything more in the defclass guild
2018-05-16T18:06:09Z sjl: that's in the lispcord.classes package.  it defines the guild class with a slot with name `id` in that package, and accessor named `id` in that package
2018-05-16T18:06:37Z sjl: Defining that accessor means there will be a function called `id` in the `lispcord.classes` package that will take a guild and give you its id
2018-05-16T18:07:12Z sjl: if we look in the packages.lisp file in that directory https://github.com/lispcord/lispcord/blob/master/src/classes/package.lisp we can see that the package exports that `id` name
2018-05-16T18:07:34Z araly: okay, so the accessor itself doesn't do anything, it just says that there will be a function
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2018-05-16T18:08:02Z sjl: No, it will also define that function automatically
2018-05-16T18:08:19Z sjl: aha, here's where the magic name lc comes from: https://github.com/lispcord/lispcord/blob/master/src/classes/package.lisp#L170-L172
2018-05-16T18:08:54Z Bike: the :accessor specifies that there should be reader and writer functions, and that they should use the given symbol in their names
2018-05-16T18:09:18Z araly: hum
2018-05-16T18:09:19Z sjl: by "should be" Bike means "it will ensure there are" not "you need to define manually"
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2018-05-16T18:09:48Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-16T18:09:57Z sjl: (lc:id (lc:guild msg)) should work.  does it not?  can you paste the error?
2018-05-16T18:11:17Z sjl: also wow this code is hard to read because of tabs instead of spaces
2018-05-16T18:11:50Z araly: okay, it worked, I don't really understand why though, is the lc:id a function that exists because of the :accessor, and it knows that it's has to be the id from an available-guild instance, because it has that in parameters ?
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2018-05-16T18:13:24Z jmercouris: sjl: C-x h - C-i
2018-05-16T18:13:25Z araly: so what is the slot-value for, because it works for a class I have created, but where I don't accessors. Should I write accessors and use this instead ?
2018-05-16T18:13:58Z jmercouris: araly: Yes, you should write with accessors
2018-05-16T18:14:00Z sjl: when you say (defclass foo () ((some-slot :accessor some-accessor))) lisp will create the class with a slot named some-slot.  It will also create (if it doesn't already exist) a generic function called some-accessor, and will define a method on some-accessor for members of class foo
2018-05-16T18:14:23Z sjl: by convention, a lot of people use the same symbol to name the slot and the accessor function
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2018-05-16T18:14:28Z jmercouris: araly: I think it would be a good idea to stop what you are doing, and read about CLOS
2018-05-16T18:14:29Z araly: okay, is there a naming convention for accessors ?
2018-05-16T18:14:38Z araly: okay
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2018-05-16T18:15:24Z jmercouris: araly: start here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ on section 16, and then 17
2018-05-16T18:15:34Z jmercouris: that should give you a basic understanding
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2018-05-16T18:15:58Z araly: thanks people, I've been blocked on this for a little while now ^^
2018-05-16T18:16:01Z sjl: If you want a really good intro to CLOS, Keene's book is a good resource.  It's worth spending a while getting the basics down.
2018-05-16T18:16:13Z araly: roger
2018-05-16T18:16:17Z sjl: (Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS)
2018-05-16T18:16:31Z sjl: It's a pretty short book, well written too.
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2018-05-16T18:18:20Z sjl: There are PDFs floating around of it, unsure how legal they are.  I own two paper copies because I bought a second while I was in grad school rather than shipping my copy I left at home across the ocean.
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2018-05-16T18:18:52Z sjl: jmercouris: whatever those letters are, github dot com doesn't support them
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2018-05-16T18:20:28Z araly: lisp is a language I learn on my own for fun, so I have a more try and read when you can't approach, I think it's time to read a bit further than just to be able to keep going ^^
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2018-05-16T18:20:53Z jmercouris: sjl: copy/paste into a local buffer. select all, c-x h, c-i indent
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2018-05-16T18:21:29Z sjl: jmercouris: those keystrokes also don't work in vim
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2018-05-16T18:21:52Z jmercouris: sjl: sure, type :q, then when you drop back into the terminal, type in emacs to get a sensible environment
2018-05-16T18:22:02Z sjl: I could pipe to lispindent but it's just less effort to read the weird indentation
2018-05-16T18:22:08Z sjl: jmercouris: you forgot the <cr> there bud
2018-05-16T18:22:16Z jmercouris: Ah, yes :P
2018-05-16T18:22:24Z jmercouris: you mean <RET>
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2018-05-16T18:36:58Z White_Flame: is this the most compatible/safe way of getting the directory of a file?  (make-pathname :defaults filename :name nil :type nil)
2018-05-16T18:37:43Z jmercouris: that's how I do it
2018-05-16T18:38:18Z White_Flame: took me a while to converge on that, still seems kind of indirect
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2018-05-16T18:44:20Z jmercouris: I didn't think of it myself, I saw someone else do it, and just copied them
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2018-05-16T18:49:12Z White_Flame: I have some old cygwin path support in my lisp build tools.  With the various linux subsystems in newer windows, and VMs being more popular, do you think cygwin usage is going to drop away?
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2018-05-16T18:50:52Z jmercouris: I would agree with that statement
2018-05-16T18:51:09Z jmercouris: you could look at google trends to get an idea
2018-05-16T18:51:28Z jmercouris: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=cygwin
2018-05-16T18:51:50Z jmercouris: if you expand the graph date range, the trend is very clear
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2018-05-16T19:05:42Z ZigPaw: for me WSL superseded Cygwin on all windows machines I use. It is just plainly easier to use as I can leverage all of the software packaged in ubuntu and not to worry if something will compile under cygwin.
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2018-05-16T19:06:22Z ZigPaw: and Emacs (latest snapshot) works really good under it.
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2018-05-16T19:21:08Z aeth: I thought WSL isn't graphical? I know Emacs outside of the terminal has more features, like more colors available for better syntax highlighting, and PDF reading.
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2018-05-16T19:25:00Z jasom: White_Flame: (uiop:pathname-directory-pathname "/foo")
2018-05-16T19:25:36Z White_Flame: I'm doing build scripts from a very raw environment, can't depend on libs being loaded yet
2018-05-16T19:25:59Z jasom: White_Flame: well you can copy the source-code for that then.  It's a single .lisp file to load it as well.
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2018-05-16T20:23:23Z dtornabene: so I've got a library (cl-async) with a bugfix that doesn't seem to have migrated up to a new package yet, i.e. the fixed library isn't available on quicklisp yet
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2018-05-16T20:23:50Z dtornabene: my question is: should I download the fixed library from github and just install it via the local-projects mechanism?
2018-05-16T20:24:49Z sjl: that's generally what I do
2018-05-16T20:25:09Z dtornabene: cool
2018-05-16T20:25:16Z sjl: don't forget step 2: forget you did this until six months later when it breaks something because you're running an old version
2018-05-16T20:25:21Z dtornabene: ha
2018-05-16T20:25:49Z sjl: I should clean out my local-projects every time I update the quicklisp dist, but I forget
2018-05-16T20:25:51Z dtornabene: its like the third thing to go wrong loading another library and I'm getting perilously close to saying "yeah, nah....."
2018-05-16T20:26:07Z dtornabene: i forget as well
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2018-05-16T20:52:36Z Xach uses ql:where-is-system a lot as a result
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2018-05-16T20:57:22Z Xach: It would be interesting (and easy to implement) to have an easy way to see local projects that shadow quicklisp projects.
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2018-05-16T21:00:04Z dtornabene: that would be interestin
2018-05-16T21:00:38Z dtornabene: i didn't even know about that command, super cool
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2018-05-16T21:02:33Z dtornabene: irony of it is that I had the quicklisp source queued up in another window to do some reading specifically to see what other commands there were that I haven't learned yet and I had to spend time trying to get another library to load
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2018-05-16T22:05:07Z vtomole: stylewarning: Congrats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI&t=2s
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2018-05-16T22:28:31Z ZigPaw: aeth you can run X Server on windows and have WSL apps using this (MobaXTerm works best with latest emacs snapshot).
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2018-05-16T22:53:02Z drunk_foxx[m]: Lisp and Rigetti Computing on computerfile, wow
2018-05-16T22:53:08Z drunk_foxx[m]: And it seems to be a series
2018-05-16T22:53:42Z drunk_foxx[m]: Parenthesis to the masses!
2018-05-16T22:54:20Z drunk_foxx[m]: But honestly this intro video tells almost nothing about the language, I bet it could have been done better. But whatever
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2018-05-16T23:35:20Z didi: Heh, I'm having a brain fart. So (loop for fn in (loop for i to 3 collect (lambda () i)) collect (funcall fn)) evals to (4 4 4 4), but I want (0 1 2 3), i.e. I want the thunk to have the value of 'i' when it was created, not a reference to 'i'. What to do?
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2018-05-16T23:37:18Z Bike: (let ((x i)) (lambda () x))
2018-05-16T23:37:37Z Bike: it's a pretty obscure and ambiguous point about what closures actually allocate
2018-05-16T23:38:34Z didi: Bike: Ah. I tried (lambda () (let ((x i)) x)) and I failed.
2018-05-16T23:38:40Z didi: This is interesting.
2018-05-16T23:38:53Z Bike: the basic idea is that LOOP will create just one binding, and repeatedly modify it
2018-05-16T23:39:43Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
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2018-05-17T00:28:05Z stylewarning: drunk_foxx[m]: the first take of the video did everything from defining the syntax of S-expressions and etc etc
2018-05-17T00:28:21Z stylewarning: The history since Lisp 1.5
2018-05-17T00:28:33Z stylewarning: But it’s too much
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2018-05-17T00:51:08Z Xach: Wow, cool
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2018-05-17T00:52:03Z didi: What, what? A new lisp video? Linky?
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2018-05-17T00:54:40Z Xach: didi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI - i'm not familiar with the channel but it has a big audience
2018-05-17T00:55:39Z vtomole: That channel has a lot of great interviews.
2018-05-17T00:55:50Z didi: Xach: Thank you.
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2018-05-17T01:14:46Z clintm: I particularly like the episode on the CERN data center.
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2018-05-17T02:40:51Z ealfonso: is there something better than: (format log-fh "~A~A~A~A~A~A~A~%" ip #\tab date #\tab user-agent #\tab path)
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2018-05-17T02:42:59Z ealfonso: also, is there a good tool to profile hunchentoot on sbcl?
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2018-05-17T02:49:10Z ealfonso: I heard of this http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html which gives me 404
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2018-05-17T03:02:03Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Statistical-Profiler
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2018-05-17T03:03:04Z PuercoPop: additionally when you install SBCL you can build the docs as texinfo, which can be read from inside Emacs (C-h i)
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2018-05-17T03:09:58Z pierpa: ealfonso: you could abstract and give a name to the action "print a few things separated by tabs and then swithch to a new line"
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2018-05-17T03:11:00Z pierpa: it would be a trivial function to write and would be much more readable
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2018-05-17T03:16:58Z ealfonso: pierpa yeah, I was just wondering if there's a built-in way with format or another standard way
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2018-05-17T03:18:08Z pierpa: hmmm
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2018-05-17T03:20:19Z ealfonso: ,(format t (format nil "~~{~~A~~^~C~~}" #\tab) (list 1 2 3))
2018-05-17T03:20:28Z ealfonso: I guess I can use that
2018-05-17T03:20:58Z pierpa: Not sure if there's a format trick for doing it in an obfuscated way saving one or two keystrokes. But even if, don't.  :)
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2018-05-17T03:23:25Z pierpa: you surely won't like it, but FWIW, here's how I would do it: (defun print-line-tab-separated (where &rest what) (princ (first what) where) (loop for item in (rest what) do (princ #\tab where) (princ item where)) (terpri))
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2018-05-17T03:28:24Z ealfonso: pierpa thanks. I think the double format works for now
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2018-05-17T03:29:19Z pierpa: Sure. It's even shorter!
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2018-05-17T03:34:04Z mange: ealfonso: Would (format log-fh "~@{~a~^	~}" ip date user-agent path) do what you want? (Note the literal tab in the format string.)
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2018-05-17T03:43:50Z ealfonso: mange yes, that works
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2018-05-17T04:36:37Z on_ion: can CLOS be written in pure CL ?
2018-05-17T04:37:56Z mange: From a brief search: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/lisp/oop/clos/pcl/0.html
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2018-05-17T04:53:50Z jasom: mange: closette as well
2018-05-17T04:55:30Z jasom: on_ion: Other than initialization and garbage collection, all of sbcl is written in CL.
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2018-05-17T05:09:40Z pillton: I think it would be difficult to integrate an independent implementation of CLOS with the host's implementation of typep; assuming the host doesn't have CLOS already.
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2018-05-17T05:15:33Z jackdaniel: pillton: CLOS is integral part of ECL now, but years ago (before I even knew about the project) it had option to build it without CLOS – type implementation there is independent
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2018-05-17T05:25:46Z pillton: Right.
2018-05-17T05:31:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'd like some help refactoring a pattern matcher i wrote
2018-05-17T05:31:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: https://pastebin.com/ZG0mRJXF
2018-05-17T05:32:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's all good but to handle improper lists like `(x . xs)` i need to add a conditional setf which i don't like very much
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2018-05-17T05:38:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-17T05:38:30Z theemacsshibe[m]: morning beach
2018-05-17T05:38:43Z mange: theemacsshibe[m]: At the moment if you call (p-match 'a 10) you get back '(a . 10), but if you call (p-match '(a) '(10)) you get '((a . 10)). That's surprising to me.
2018-05-17T05:38:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: good point
2018-05-17T05:39:07Z mange: If you make it so p-match always returns a list of matches, I think you can also clean up your conditional setf, and the conditional after it.
2018-05-17T05:39:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: using nconc makes it less bad
2018-05-17T05:39:34Z theemacsshibe[m]: https://pastebin.com/7nZFaK6X
2018-05-17T05:39:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'm not sure about appending either.
2018-05-17T05:40:27Z pierpal: you want back a list of bindings?
2018-05-17T05:40:31Z mange: nconc is the same as append, except it can also mutate, right?
2018-05-17T05:40:48Z pierpal: yes
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2018-05-17T05:41:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'm trying to return an assoc list
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2018-05-17T05:41:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: aaaaactually given i want to put this on an environment alist there could be a better solution
2018-05-17T05:41:27Z pierpal: then the last cons is not correct
2018-05-17T05:41:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: i realised as much
2018-05-17T05:42:20Z pierpal: append would be the quick & dirty patch
2018-05-17T05:42:24Z theemacsshibe[m]: (also the indentation is funny cause i'm entering it into SLIME)
2018-05-17T05:43:28Z pierpal: you can make it linear time, instead of quadratic, by using an extra parameter
2018-05-17T05:43:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: yeah i'm trying that now
2018-05-17T05:43:51Z pierpal: working as an accumulator
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2018-05-17T05:44:51Z loli: well, the append is essentially O(1) since the biggest list is of size 1
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2018-05-17T05:45:00Z pierpal: I'm sorry I can't show the code now as I'm not typing from a real comp
2018-05-17T05:45:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: all good, i want to figure out that myself then
2018-05-17T05:45:23Z pierpal: it's not of size 1
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2018-05-17T05:45:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: i got it
2018-05-17T05:46:06Z pierpal: each call returns a list of bindings
2018-05-17T05:46:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: https://pastebin.com/ViTiLNvC
2018-05-17T05:47:21Z pierpal: good
2018-05-17T05:47:38Z pierpal: so you knew how to do it!
2018-05-17T05:47:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: yeah i just didn't think of using an accumulator
2018-05-17T05:48:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: my end goal is to port it to cee to get it working in my interpreter for lambdas
2018-05-17T05:48:32Z pierpal: ah!
2018-05-17T05:49:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: c:
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2018-05-17T09:17:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: i've ported it to cee now
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2018-05-17T11:16:45Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI
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2018-05-17T11:34:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: >recommends me a video on FP and Haskell
2018-05-17T11:36:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm gonna go do some stuff, totally not murdering that scientist board that liked Mr Curry, with the time machine I built.
2018-05-17T11:38:04Z theemacsshibe[m]: (let ((time (- time (years 30))) (loop for person in (getf haskell :design-group) do (murder person) collect (scalp-of person)))
2018-05-17T11:38:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: I...missed a paren.
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2018-05-17T11:43:07Z pierpal: oh no! now the universe will implode!
2018-05-17T11:43:44Z antoszka: oh well, high time it did
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2018-05-17T11:53:43Z BernhardPosselt: hi, what features should I look into for expanding my horizon? I know the usual web stack, Java, Rust and a bit of Haskell
2018-05-17T11:54:21Z BernhardPosselt: shouldnt knowing macros or compiler plugins cover most of the power of Lisp already?
2018-05-17T11:55:34Z BernhardPosselt: my view of lisp is that it's a language with a nice macro system
2018-05-17T11:55:42Z BernhardPosselt: s/view/understanding
2018-05-17T11:55:59Z smurfrobot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-05-17T11:56:01Z Xach: It will be hard to learn new things if you decide in advance what you'll get out of it.
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2018-05-17T11:56:49Z ecraven: BernhardPosselt: to me, lisp is about much more than macros
2018-05-17T11:56:50Z Xach: https://medium.com/@MartinCracauer/a-gentle-introduction-to-compile-time-computing-part-1-d4d96099cea0 is the start of a nice series on a Common Lisp advantage
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2018-05-17T11:57:49Z ecraven: Xach: thanks for that link!
2018-05-17T11:58:05Z BernhardPosselt: syntax for me is off putting but I've heard from so many places that you should learn a Lisp language because it's powerful
2018-05-17T11:58:36Z ecraven: BernhardPosselt: to me, the syntax is one of the strongest points in favour of lisp ;)
2018-05-17T11:58:48Z BernhardPosselt: so I'm finally up for trying it (probably going with Clojure)
2018-05-17T11:58:59Z ecraven: clojure has the least nice syntax of the lisps, imho :P
2018-05-17T11:59:11Z Xach: This is a channel for Common Lisp and can provide help with it.
2018-05-17T11:59:12Z BernhardPosselt: ecraven: syntax as in? looks all the same to me
2018-05-17T11:59:25Z Xach:  https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_cloj
2018-05-17T11:59:25Z Xach: ure_programmer/d4eec68/
2018-05-17T11:59:27Z Xach: darn it
2018-05-17T11:59:46Z Xach: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_clojure_programmer/d4eec68/ is a nice post about what it's like to use lisp
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2018-05-17T11:59:53Z BernhardPosselt: thank you
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2018-05-17T12:45:06Z ecraven: Xach: ah, there's only two parts so far? This seems like a book I would gladly pay for, but it hasn't been written yet :-/
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2018-05-17T13:02:06Z Xach: ecraven: encourage martin to keep going!
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2018-05-17T13:03:28Z ecraven: Xach: is he ever here?
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2018-05-17T13:05:28Z Xach: I think he does not use IRC
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2018-05-17T13:09:27Z loke: Hello Lisp
2018-05-17T13:09:27Z Colleen: loke: drmeister said 8 hours, 52 minutes ago: The dev branch built - I pushed it to the master branch
2018-05-17T13:10:21Z drmeister: Hi loke
2018-05-17T13:10:41Z loke: Hello drmeister
2018-05-17T13:10:46Z drmeister: Clasp is now building using all available cores for compile-file.
2018-05-17T13:10:51Z loke: thanks for updating me. So I'll just build from master now, yes?
2018-05-17T13:11:17Z drmeister: You may want to try it out - but it needs a special build of boehm and a little more setup than usual.
2018-05-17T13:11:37Z loke: OK, and those are things I would have to do manually?
2018-05-17T13:12:26Z drmeister: Yes - we have not integrated the boehm build system into clasp - it's a bit of a PITA
2018-05-17T13:12:28Z drmeister: https://github.com/clasp-developers/forkable-boehm
2018-05-17T13:12:40Z drmeister: And then add this to the clasp wscript.config...
2018-05-17T13:12:55Z drmeister: USE_PARALLEL_BUILD = True
2018-05-17T13:13:19Z drmeister: It's still "experimental" - but it's been working for weeks in several peoples hands.
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2018-05-17T13:14:19Z loke: drmeister: Thanks.
2018-05-17T13:14:19Z drmeister: If you have more than ~8 cores the build becomes dominated by other linear processes.
2018-05-17T13:14:22Z loke: I'll try it tomorrow.
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2018-05-17T13:15:07Z drmeister: Cool - just check in with us in #clasp if you run into any trouble.
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2018-05-17T13:16:10Z _death: ecraven: I think a very strong point for lisp is that it's not just a language, but also a "living" system.. when developing you simultaneously evolve the lisp language and the lisp process
2018-05-17T13:16:56Z ecraven: _death: I've been working with SLIME a lot with different Schemes (implementing an r7rs swank), and I've come to found out that while I prefer the *language* Scheme, it just cannot compare in any way to the *system* Common Lisp
2018-05-17T13:17:24Z ecraven: I haven't found any Scheme that comes even remotely close to debugging, introspection and mutation of running systems in common lisp
2018-05-17T13:17:50Z ecraven: I am very much a fan of "world" systems, and it seems every Scheme implementation has mostly just given up on that :-/
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2018-05-17T13:18:10Z ecraven: so if you want what CL has here, you really have to use CL :-)
2018-05-17T13:18:23Z loke: ecraven: Have you tried Smalltalk?
2018-05-17T13:18:38Z _death: just today I put back a screencast I made a while ago.. it's a bit long, but may be entertaining to "advanced" lispers.. https://adeht.org/casts/new-project.html
2018-05-17T13:18:53Z ecraven: loke: years ago, I find it interesting, but not something I would want to actually use the way I use lisp now
2018-05-17T13:19:00Z ecraven: loke: I also like prolog, APL and forth :D
2018-05-17T13:19:01Z loke: ecraven: Smalltalk is nothing like Lisp, but has the same system-based development model. If you try it, and you like the model there, ten that suggests that that is indeed the aspect you like.
2018-05-17T13:19:20Z ecraven: loke: oh, I like that aspect of smalltalk, I don't like all the visual things it necessitates
2018-05-17T13:19:24Z loke: ecraven: All of those languages are more or less system-based in the way you described.
2018-05-17T13:19:44Z ecraven: yea, I've noticed that
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2018-05-17T13:20:56Z ecraven: erlang might be similar, in that you can connect to a running world, modify things, and it keeps working
2018-05-17T13:22:32Z loke: ecraven: Yes, but it's more limited. You have to rebuild one module at a time. You can't just recompile a function.
2018-05-17T13:22:54Z loke: and the tooling is less advanced than SLIME.
2018-05-17T13:24:16Z ecraven: in a way, it is a bit dismaying to find that *no* other language can compare with CL in this aspect :-/
2018-05-17T13:24:40Z ecraven: I love *writing* Scheme code, but actually *maintaining* it is not so much fun :-/
2018-05-17T13:24:57Z ecraven: I guess that is the reason that so much decades-old CL code still runs fine ;)
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2018-05-17T13:45:05Z on_ion: ecraven: Prolog
2018-05-17T13:45:07Z on_ion: Smalltalk
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2018-05-17T15:29:34Z flip214: Forth
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2018-05-17T16:15:00Z shka: hy
2018-05-17T16:15:26Z shka: i need compact objects with slots that can be missing
2018-05-17T16:15:56Z shka: i can cook my own solution, but perhaps there is something already
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2018-05-17T16:18:36Z cgay: protocol buffers
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2018-05-17T16:57:09Z makomo: hello
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2018-05-17T17:08:56Z phoe: heyyy
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2018-05-17T17:13:29Z cgay: hi
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2018-05-17T17:48:48Z flip214: shka: a hash-table, a plist, an alist, ...
2018-05-17T17:49:04Z flip214: depends on the access patterns and number of slots (average/max/...)
2018-05-17T17:49:32Z phoe: shka: define "missing"
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2018-05-17T17:53:33Z phoe: unbound? not defined?
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2018-05-17T17:59:38Z flip214: my guess is "not used" and so should be omitted to conserve memory
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2018-05-17T17:59:56Z phoe: then an alist/plist if there's less than 20 cells, otherwise a hashtable
2018-05-17T18:00:07Z phoe: s/cells/key-value pairs
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2018-05-17T18:05:40Z _death: one exemplary use case of the MOP is dynamic slots
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2018-05-17T18:08:08Z flip214: _death: but that's only a good idea for a few common sets of slots, and not 30 slots with 50% chance of existance... too many combinations
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2018-05-17T18:12:13Z _death: still it provides a way to use your own storage representation
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2018-05-17T18:30:44Z aeth: For me, I pretty much always use a hash table when I want a hash table. Using a(n) alist/plist for a small number of elements is implementation-specific premature optimization. However, a plist can still be a good choice with lots of elements, if you're iterating over it (e.g. alexandria:doplist)
2018-05-17T18:31:13Z aeth: _death: Why would you want dynamic slots?
2018-05-17T18:33:03Z _death: I never used them, but AMOP claims they're useful in knowledge representation systems
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2018-05-17T20:29:06Z aindilis: what is the recommended reading path for someone who knows some lisp who wants to get good at Common Lisp for AI?
2018-05-17T20:29:37Z Bike: books on AI
2018-05-17T20:30:09Z Bike: what kind of thing are you interested in? machine learning is the big one right now. i thought probably approximately correct was neat, but probably wrong about biology
2018-05-17T20:30:22Z Bike: but thought it was*
2018-05-17T20:30:31Z aindilis: well I am interested in Knowledge Based Systems and Automated Theorem Proving, CYC etc
2018-05-17T20:30:39Z aindilis: Building Problem Solvers
2018-05-17T20:30:51Z aindilis: Program Synthesis
2018-05-17T20:30:58Z aindilis: Eurisko
2018-05-17T20:31:04Z aindilis: Prolog
2018-05-17T20:31:30Z Bike: well, read about those then
2018-05-17T20:31:45Z Bike: nothing about it is very lisp specific
2018-05-17T20:31:54Z aindilis: well how would I master Common Lisp
2018-05-17T20:31:54Z sjl: you might like Paradigms of AI Programming by Norvig (recently made freely available by him)
2018-05-17T20:32:20Z Bike: using a programming language is a good way to learn it. it sounds like you have a goal that motivates you to write code, so you're set
2018-05-17T20:32:37Z aindilis: k
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2018-05-17T20:37:05Z pfdietz: CL could use a good sat solver.
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2018-05-17T20:38:23Z aindilis: what comes after AMOP?
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2018-05-17T20:38:51Z antoszka: aindilis: Let over Lambda
2018-05-17T20:38:56Z aindilis: ty
2018-05-17T20:39:22Z rme: I recently learned that there are SAT solving competitions.
2018-05-17T20:39:28Z antoszka: Actually, I'd say it's more interesting (intellectually) than AMOP
2018-05-17T20:40:19Z MichaelRaskin: Not only SAT! There is also, say CASC.
2018-05-17T20:40:48Z rme: The ACL2 people told me about them.
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2018-05-17T20:45:16Z p_l: http://troubles.md/posts/i-triple-equals/ fun things CPUs do to your code
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2018-05-17T20:50:35Z MichaelRaskin: Well, to your data
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2018-05-17T20:51:03Z MichaelRaskin: flds is emitted by LLVM, after all
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2018-05-17T21:27:35Z pfdietz: I've called Z3 from sbcl, but it would be nice to have a solver with more accessible innards.
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2018-05-17T21:44:59Z makomo: aindilis: antoszka: i read (actually, am still reading) LoL before AMOP (haven't yet begun reading)
2018-05-17T21:45:42Z pfdietz: Applying machine learning to theorem proving is a hot topic now.  https://www.floc2018.org/summit-on-machine-learning/
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2018-05-17T22:21:15Z p_l: pfdietz: the summary from that link sounds more like applying formal methods to machine learning
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2018-05-17T22:26:13Z antoszka: makomo: good ;)
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2018-05-17T23:00:30Z on_ion: aindilis: what are you doing? arent you using prolog already for those things..??
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2018-05-17T23:45:51Z granttrec: how to pick a lisp implementation?
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2018-05-17T23:47:13Z White_Flame: what OS are you on?
2018-05-17T23:48:54Z White_Flame: if linux, then SBCL is great.  It runs on Windows, and while it's been a bit immature there, I think it's solid at this point
2018-05-17T23:49:21Z White_Flame: ccl (clozure common lisp) has been solid on windows & mac for a long time
2018-05-17T23:49:23Z White_Flame: most people use sbcl here
2018-05-17T23:50:02Z White_Flame: there's also ECL which can interoperate in a C environment, CLASP for C++, ABCL for Java
2018-05-17T23:50:15Z rme: CCL's solid Linux too, if I may say so.
2018-05-17T23:50:45Z White_Flame: yep
2018-05-17T23:51:19Z edgar-rft: <https://www.cliki.net/Common+Lisp+implementation>
2018-05-17T23:52:01Z edgar-rft: granttrec, we need more information to help you
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2018-05-17T23:54:51Z granttrec1: sorry my computer just froze for some reason, i'm on linux
2018-05-17T23:55:31Z granttrec1: I'm interested in learning lisp but not sure which to pick since there are many
2018-05-17T23:56:14Z granttrec1: edgar-rft: the link is broken
2018-05-17T23:56:21Z White_Flame: just grab SBCL
2018-05-17T23:56:35Z White_Flame: it's basically the fastest, and best supported by libraries
2018-05-17T23:57:12Z edgar-rft: granttrec1, the link works here - no idea why not for you
2018-05-17T23:57:15Z granttrec1: White_Flame: thanks
2018-05-17T23:58:21Z granttrec1: edgar-rft: https://imgur.com/a/Yjk7Qn4
2018-05-17T23:58:30Z edgar-rft: CLISP is newbie-friendly but somewhat semi-maintained at the moment, most people here are SBCL users
2018-05-17T23:58:42Z White_Flame: install SBCL and emacs.  Then install https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and quicklisp-slime-helper
2018-05-17T23:59:13Z White_Flame: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
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2018-05-17T23:59:31Z granttrec1: already got emacs :)
2018-05-17T23:59:33Z White_Flame: from there, you should be able to run M-x slime (alt-x slime on most keyboards/setups)
2018-05-17T23:59:42Z White_Flame: and that'll give you your interactive environment
2018-05-18T00:00:13Z White_Flame: also, there's #clnoobs which is probably the better place for learning language stuff
2018-05-18T00:00:32Z granttrec1: thanks for your help guys
2018-05-18T00:01:46Z edgar-rft: granttrec1, remove the trailing angled bracket in the headline of your browser and it probably works
2018-05-18T00:02:26Z White_Flame: edgar-rft: don't post links surrounded in angle brackets ;)
2018-05-18T00:02:26Z granttrec1: yup its good now
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2018-05-18T00:03:17Z edgar-rft: White_Flame, why not? angled brackeds are commonly used to separate links from surrounding text
2018-05-18T00:03:50Z White_Flame: irc clients have different assumptions as to what the boundaries of pasted links are
2018-05-18T00:04:14Z White_Flame: I tend to put white space around them just in case.  (e.g. "Go to http://my.thing.com/foo.link .")
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2018-05-18T00:05:05Z edgar-rft: White_Flame, but then links don't work if a comma directly follows the link
2018-05-18T00:05:21Z White_Flame: This link, http://www.google.com/ , should work
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2018-05-18T00:06:14Z cgay: Whitespace works. > or , may or may not work. Hence use whitespace.
2018-05-18T00:06:38Z edgar-rft: that forces me to type blanks after every link, what is idiotic. I'm not responsible to fiy bugs in broken IRC clients
2018-05-18T00:07:40Z cgay: What you say is correct.
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2018-05-18T00:30:03Z on_ion: ive been adding spaces after complete URLs for decades. web browsers like to reload from cache if next_url == current_url by string compare so it became habit to get a nice full reload.
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2018-05-18T00:35:53Z edgar-rft: That's not the point. A comma *can* be part of a valid URL, an angled bracket *never* can be part of an URL. An IRC client that recognizes angled brackets as part of an URL is undoubtfully broken. Don't use shitty software.
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2018-05-18T00:53:49Z Bike: does this concern for commas in links mean the topic will be spaced out more
2018-05-18T00:54:42Z p_l: Bike: the topic is stretched thin already, so no
2018-05-18T00:55:10Z Bike: aww
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2018-05-18T00:55:41Z edgar-rft: Bike: <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> is invalid URL syntax
2018-05-18T00:56:01Z pillton: Ok. Ok. We get it.
2018-05-18T00:56:08Z edgar-rft:  <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp>,<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> would be correct
2018-05-18T00:56:21Z on_ion: SBCL is 1.4.7 if we are on the topic of the topic
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2018-05-18T00:59:06Z on_ion: or why leave room for something out of date, listing the versions of implementations ? i would myself have more lisp in it like the #1=() part.
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2018-05-18T01:24:05Z White_Flame: "#lisp, pedantry with occasional Common Lisp sprinkled in"
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2018-05-18T04:16:48Z emaczen: What are common causes for the SBCL error: no more immobile pages?
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2018-05-18T04:26:24Z alandipert: _death thanks for sharing that screencast. epic format string at the end
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2018-05-18T05:54:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-18T05:54:27Z clintm: good morning, beach!
2018-05-18T05:54:42Z beach: emaczen: I don't know the answer, but I am guessing the use of FFI.
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2018-05-18T05:55:34Z phoe: emaczen: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/338faa43a1fa7931ac61adf24ac31793888287ef/src/runtime/immobile-space.c#L267
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2018-05-18T05:56:48Z clintm: I've been looking around for options other than using a database (again) for a project, and I'm curious if any of you have suggestions.  I've been reading through cl-prevalence and it seems like one reasonable alternative.
2018-05-18T05:58:17Z beach: I have a suggestion.  Give me one minute...
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2018-05-18T05:58:29Z clintm: There's also lambdalite from mocl as a possible option too.
2018-05-18T05:58:50Z clintm: beach: okie dokie.  Gonna walk the dog while you do your thing.
2018-05-18T05:59:38Z phoe: clintm: what do you want to store in your database? you could try a Lisp object store. beach has a very simple and customizable https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber while I used BKNR.DATASTORE in the past
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2018-05-18T06:01:14Z beach: clintm: It's Clobber as phoe hinted.
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2018-05-18T06:03:02Z Ober: manardb is pretty nice
2018-05-18T06:03:24Z Ober: although with leveldb bindings that should be a choice too
2018-05-18T06:03:26Z phoe: oh, I never used it
2018-05-18T06:04:22Z Ober: leveldb obviously requires the external libs, but manardb does not
2018-05-18T06:04:35Z Ober: except for libposix
2018-05-18T06:04:39Z Ober: osicat rather
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2018-05-18T06:06:09Z clintm: At first glance, it looks like manardb is linux only?  At least that's the impression that I get from the project page, and trying to load it in sbcl seems to confirm that.
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2018-05-18T06:07:56Z _death: alandipert: glad you enjoyed it ;)
2018-05-18T06:08:34Z beach: Ober: In what way manardb and leveldb nice?  It is an honest question.  I don't know them.
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2018-05-18T06:09:11Z clintm: _death: what did you use to record the video?  I enjoyed the screencast as well!
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2018-05-18T06:09:49Z _death: https://asciinema.org/
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2018-05-18T06:22:36Z _death: clintm: may want to check out https://github.com/inaimathi/fact-base
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2018-05-18T06:28:13Z beach: Ober: In other words, what is it about those two alternatives that made you recommend them to clintm?
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2018-05-18T06:39:52Z beach: Oh, well.
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2018-05-18T06:40:55Z clintm: Thanks for all of the suggestions, everyone.  I'm working my way through them now.
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2018-05-18T07:17:53Z Ober: beach: manardb is pure cl and it's fast as hell. full clos layer on it. leveldb is just a hotness in k/v stores. and the binding in cl is pretty good
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2018-05-18T08:35:55Z dim: hi! I think I will need to upload files to Amazon S3 in a streaming fashion (keeping only a chunk of the file content in memory at a time), and I wonder if cl-s3 or sz3 know how to do that... docs aren't that clear... anyone done that before?
2018-05-18T08:38:40Z dim: maybe put-stream from sz3 is what I need
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2018-05-18T08:46:32Z Ober: hmm good question
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2018-05-18T10:17:33Z shka: manadb has interesing source code
2018-05-18T10:17:35Z shka: worth reading
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2018-05-18T10:39:03Z jmercouris: I'm relatively new to working with alists, and I see that getf only returns the first instance matching
2018-05-18T10:39:09Z jmercouris: how do I get subsequent elements?
2018-05-18T10:39:18Z jmercouris: (getf (list :a 1 2 3) :a) --> 1
2018-05-18T10:39:21Z jmercouris: how might I get 2?
2018-05-18T10:39:39Z jmercouris: other than (nth)
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2018-05-18T10:40:17Z jmercouris: or does 2, not belong to :a?
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2018-05-18T10:43:27Z jdz: jmercouris: the latter.  Also, that's a plist, not an alist.
2018-05-18T10:43:35Z jmercouris: yes, sorry, plist
2018-05-18T10:43:57Z jmercouris: here's the data that I am trying to traverse: https://gist.github.com/0d224cebaf779802a099938e7726b253
2018-05-18T10:43:59Z TMA: jmercouris: 2 is the key in the plist
2018-05-18T10:44:04Z jdz: jmercouris: did you mean (getf (list :a '(1 2 3)) :a)?
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2018-05-18T10:44:17Z jmercouris: jdz: I did not mean that
2018-05-18T10:44:26Z jmercouris: I just posted a link to what my actual data looks like, and as you acn see
2018-05-18T10:44:30Z jmercouris: s/acn/can
2018-05-18T10:44:52Z jmercouris: survey has several elements in it
2018-05-18T10:44:55Z jdz: Well, that looks like an alist, not a plist.
2018-05-18T10:44:59Z jmercouris: or rather :|survey|
2018-05-18T10:45:17Z jdz: So you'd use ASSOC.
2018-05-18T10:45:19Z jmercouris: where might I read up more on how to traverse such a list?
2018-05-18T10:45:45Z jdz: It's a tree, so you traverse it as any other cons structure.
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2018-05-18T10:46:51Z jdz: jmercouris: have you considered using classes instead?
2018-05-18T10:47:05Z jmercouris: I've never traversed a tree composed of lists
2018-05-18T10:47:12Z jmercouris: In my own source code I use classes to generate a tree
2018-05-18T10:47:26Z jmercouris: this is the result of an API I am using to parse XML
2018-05-18T10:47:34Z jdz: A survey has a name, description and fields.  Each field would be a subclass of a generic field class that has at least a description field, etc.
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2018-05-18T11:23:40Z _death: jmercouris: there are many ways to skin that cat.. for example http://paste.lisp.org/display/139074 or https://gist.github.com/death/4ae8de1d11202faecd2d634190e53d8c
2018-05-18T11:26:54Z _death: but.. if you "never traversed a tree composed of lists".. then you should do just that, since it's a very useful skill in lisp
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2018-05-18T11:51:49Z jmercouris: _death: yeah, I'm learning it right now, thanks for the links
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2018-05-18T13:27:50Z drunk_foxx[m]: A follow-up video about Lisp from Robert Smith on Comouterphile:
2018-05-18T13:27:50Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw-y3vNDRWk
2018-05-18T13:28:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: It's the second one
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2018-05-18T13:37:39Z antoszka: drunk_foxx[m]: What's the first one?
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2018-05-18T13:43:59Z drunk_foxx[m]: Here:
2018-05-18T13:43:59Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI&t=1s
2018-05-18T13:45:39Z klm2is: Are these equivalent? `(("name" . ,name) ("and" . "more") and (list (cons "name" name) (cons "and" "more"))
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2018-05-18T13:46:45Z klm2is: I'm worried the first might not always return a totally new list. Is that possible?
2018-05-18T13:47:03Z klm2is: I missed a paren above...
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2018-05-18T13:47:58Z Bike: yes, the result of ` shouldn't be modified
2018-05-18T13:48:27Z Bike: which is to say, no, they're not equivalent
2018-05-18T13:48:42Z klm2is: thanks!
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2018-05-18T14:01:32Z antoszka: drunk_foxx[m]: Thank you.
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2018-05-18T14:08:53Z White_Flame: klm2is: to be more specific, the 2 resulting shapes are structured exactly the same.  The `-based one is tied to source code literals, which make them dangerous/unspecified to mutate later
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2018-05-18T14:10:24Z White_Flame: even though the first cons in the list is most likely going to be new on each invocation
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2018-05-18T14:12:41Z klm2is: thanks.
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2018-05-18T14:14:10Z klm2is: I had a macro working like (define-my-call url :query ...query alist...)
2018-05-18T14:14:53Z klm2is: well not exactly, I guess it was more complicated than that.
2018-05-18T14:15:18Z klm2is: but the point is, I was using this in two places and seeing some odd cross-contamination in backquoted forms
2018-05-18T14:15:29Z klm2is: I think I have it now though, thank you
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2018-05-18T15:06:56Z remix2000[m]: Hello! Is that true that CL code is fully portable across implementations?
2018-05-18T15:08:02Z jackdaniel: if you write a conforming Common Lisp program then yes
2018-05-18T15:08:10Z jackdaniel: if you use implementation-specific extensions - then no
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2018-05-18T15:10:35Z remix2000[m]: How about C FFI? Is it compatible across major implementations?
2018-05-18T15:10:47Z Bike: it's pretty portable, yeah.
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2018-05-18T15:38:14Z White_Flame: remix2000[m]: there are a lot of libraries called "trivial-<x>" which are small portability shims for accessing non-standard but common features
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2018-05-18T15:39:00Z White_Flame: but CL itself is a standard that hasn't changed since its inception, so conformance means strong compatibility within its scope
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2018-05-18T15:41:02Z remix2000[m]: Are C bindings cross-platform?
2018-05-18T15:41:34Z White_Flame: that could be taken multiple ways, but the CFFI library works across implementations
2018-05-18T15:41:54Z on_ion: is there a way to ask a particular CL implementation to check conformity to CL for some code ?
2018-05-18T15:41:58Z White_Flame: when you cross platforms, that all depends on how the C library works per platform, regardless of Lisp
2018-05-18T15:42:07Z Bike: on_ion: compile it
2018-05-18T15:42:15Z Bike: none of them are completely strict, though
2018-05-18T15:42:32Z on_ion: Bike: sbcl will compile with sbcl extensions would it not
2018-05-18T15:42:36Z on_ion: ...
2018-05-18T15:42:54Z rumbler31: on_ion: is there some particular feature you're curious about?
2018-05-18T15:43:01Z Bike: including extension code doesn't make it nonconforming
2018-05-18T15:43:14Z rumbler31: the "not that hard to test" case is to simple compile the concerned code on all available implementations
2018-05-18T15:43:45Z on_ion: rumbler31: nope im just following the conversation.  "jackdaniel | if you write a conforming Common Lisp program then yes"  <-- ok so how does one know if their progrm is comforming to Common Lisp? obvious question no ?
2018-05-18T15:44:20Z on_ion: ok, extension code... sigh
2018-05-18T15:44:36Z rumbler31: I think the word "comforming" is misused here
2018-05-18T15:45:13Z White_Flame: some sort of automated test for conformance would get into halting problem territory
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2018-05-18T15:45:35Z on_ion: tht would make sense rumb
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2018-05-18T15:45:49Z rumbler31: implementations conform to the standard.  code is simply compiled by the implementation.  If you write code where the standard says "the behavior is undefined" then you should expect different behavior on different implementations
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2018-05-18T15:45:59Z Bike: probably not halting problem, except for a few such requirements, like that macroexpansion always terminates
2018-05-18T15:46:03Z schweers: on_ion: It is not always straightforward to know if you’re writing strictly conforming code, although with time you can gain some experience.  For this reason I run my code on at least one other implementation from time to time (mostly running the test cases).  Normally I use sbcl, but use CCL for this reason.  This has triggered some bugs in my code and made me more aware of what can be non-portable.
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2018-05-18T15:47:02Z rumbler31: I think a better way to phrase the discussion is "how to know how portable your code is across implementations"
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2018-05-18T15:47:08Z White_Flame: Bike: the territory includes "figure out what the range of dynamic behavior is, by looking at the code".  Same thing for C, try to write a program to scan code to see if it invokes undefined behavior
2018-05-18T15:47:19Z White_Flame: (joke answer:  always return true)
2018-05-18T15:47:21Z emaczen: phoe: I just saw your response
2018-05-18T15:47:24Z on_ion: "different behavior on different implementations" that already sounds like dangerous territory.
2018-05-18T15:47:36Z rumbler31: obviously, impl specific extensions aren't, and relying on undefined behavior also is a likely source of inspection
2018-05-18T15:47:51Z emaczen: I'm not using any FFI at the moment...
2018-05-18T15:47:53Z sjl: I do something similar to schweers -- develop primarily in SBCL but run my test suites in sbcl+ccl+ecl+abcl
2018-05-18T15:47:53Z on_ion: schweers: ah i see, ive seen others do that as well, that seems practical
2018-05-18T15:48:39Z jackdaniel: Bike: I think that clisp has a mode enforcing strict ANSI, but I may be wrong
2018-05-18T15:48:47Z rumbler31: on_ion: yes dangerous territory I suppose
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2018-05-18T15:48:53Z emaczen: are immobile pages, like pages in RAM?
2018-05-18T15:49:39Z Bike: jackdaniel: i think that's more of a "turn off nonconformant behavior we have by default" flag
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2018-05-18T15:50:25Z schweers: on_ion: one example I ran into the other day: I use a third party library which exposes some classes.  The slots of the objects of these classes are filled by reading input files.  One of the fields I frequently access in a random order is a list.  I replaced it with a simple-array and it was fine.  Until I ran the tests on CCL.  Turns out, the slot had a type specifier of LIST, and CCL checks for that.
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2018-05-18T16:52:57Z jfrancis: I have a bunch of code that reads and processes files produced by a third party (the FAA, specifically). About a week ago, they started adding a BOM (unicode byte order mark, 0xef 0xbb 0xbf) to the front of every file. I'm pulling my hair out, tried everything I can possibly think of to skip past those first three bytes and read the rest of the file (which is just plain old ASCII). No luck. Anyone dealt with this? Any thoughts? 64-bit SBCL 1.4.5.38-9ee5e08 
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2018-05-18T16:54:17Z Bike: if it's ascii can't you just read it as unicode?
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2018-05-18T16:56:04Z jfrancis: Perhaps, but if I can, I haven't figured out how. Adding ":foreign-encoding :utf-8" to with-open-file didn't hack it. Although at least the errors changed.
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2018-05-18T17:00:40Z Xach: jfrancis: latin-1/iso8859-1 is one option that springs to mind
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2018-05-18T17:04:56Z jfrancis: Oops, obviously, I mean :external-format, not :foreign-encoding. Confusing my languages. Using either :latin-1 or :iso8859-1 gives me the error "The bounding indices 40 and 45 are bad for a sequence of length 42."
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2018-05-18T17:05:46Z jfrancis: I could strip the first three characters from each file as a pre-processing step before I feed them to my code, but that's precisely what I'm trying to avoid.
2018-05-18T17:05:55Z jfrancis: first three bytes, rather
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2018-05-18T17:06:42Z jfrancis: Or I could send a letter to the FAA and ask them to go back to publishing the files the way they've been doing it for ten years up until this Monday. But I doubt that will get much traction.
2018-05-18T17:06:45Z on_ion: index of 40 bad for sequence of 42? hmmm
2018-05-18T17:06:50Z on_ion: length+
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2018-05-18T17:30:44Z _death: jfrancis: what happens if you just (read-char stream) after opening the file to skip the BOM
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2018-05-18T17:36:07Z jfrancis: I get "the octet sequence #(239) cannot be decoded."
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2018-05-18T17:38:56Z _death: hmm, seems to work here with "latest" sbcl and default external format etc.
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2018-05-18T17:39:52Z _death: you can also try a bivalent stream and read the first 3 octets..
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2018-05-18T17:43:38Z _death: and the sbcl manual mentions a :replacement option that can be supplied to external-format, so that may also work
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2018-05-18T17:49:19Z jfrancis: Sigh. It just seems horribly broken that I can't read a fairly common (though horribly broken) file format without ridiculous gyrations. Sticking a Byte-Order-Marker on the front of a file, despite the inherent evil of it, is common.
2018-05-18T17:50:00Z _death: well, sbcl TODO specifically mentions it..
2018-05-18T17:51:48Z ZombieChicken: jfrancis: If it breaks a standard or you can explain how it's broken, then maybe the email makes more sense. Perhaps whoever made that change was just ignorant
2018-05-18T17:51:53Z _death: though it seems like a place to stick things that won't ever get done ;)
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2018-05-18T17:53:49Z jfrancis: ZombieChicken: Here's the problem boiled down to it's essence: How can I read an ASCII file in a portable way in CL that has a BOM on the front of it. Assuming, of course, that I can't mercilessly flog the person who put the BOM there in the first place.
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2018-05-18T17:55:06Z ZombieChicken: jfrancis: I'm aware. I'm also not well acquanted with CL, so I can't offer any real help
2018-05-18T17:56:39Z _death: if it has a BOM, it's not ASCII.. and if you want to do it portably, you need to use a binary stream and do the decoding yourself
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2018-05-18T17:57:20Z ZombieChicken: But if that appended data is nonstandard, an email and a prayer you get to someone who isn't stupid would be the best option; working around and excepting a broken file format doesn't help anyone
2018-05-18T17:57:28Z ZombieChicken: s/appended/prepended
2018-05-18T17:57:40Z ZombieChicken: grr
2018-05-18T17:57:45Z ZombieChicken: s/exepting/accepting
2018-05-18T17:57:48Z ZombieChicken: need more coffee
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2018-05-18T17:58:36Z ZombieChicken: _death: Possible to grab a binary stream, read a few bytes, then convert the rest to an ASCII stream?
2018-05-18T17:58:38Z jfrancis: ZombieChicken: You're not seriously thinking an email to a US Gov't Federal Agency will get them to change a file format, are you? :D
2018-05-18T17:58:49Z pfdietz: Does sbcl provide restarts for that reader error?   Maybe ask for one that would help here.
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2018-05-18T17:59:29Z ZombieChicken: jfrancis: No, I don't expect it to do anything useful unless you're bribing people, but you might get lucky
2018-05-18T17:59:35Z jfrancis: Yeah, that's what I've resorted to. Opening the file as binary, discarding the first three bytes, then reading in the rest and converting it back to a string. It's unspeakably inefficient. Then again, it only ever has to be done once per file.
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2018-05-18T18:00:57Z _death: ZombieChicken: yes, you can do precisely that with a bivalent stream.. in sbcl you can open a bivalent stream by providing :element-type :default
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2018-05-18T18:02:38Z jfrancis: So I can open a stream, do three (read-byte ), then read the rest as strings? If so, is that portable, or is that an SBCL-ism?
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2018-05-18T18:03:13Z _death: jfrancis: it's sbcl-specific.. there are portable libraries like flexi-streams
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2018-05-18T18:04:21Z jfrancis: Hmm. Ok. I just got my other code working (that reads it as binary, then converts the byte vector to ASCII). But that code is so embarrassingly bad, I'll go look at flexi-streams. Thanks!
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2018-05-18T18:15:18Z jfrancis: Heh, it runs out of heap when loading the 182meg input file. Guess I need to go figure out the "right" way.
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2018-05-18T18:28:19Z pierpal: 182MB is very little data, my toaster has more than that ram. How are you reading those files?
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2018-05-18T18:30:46Z edgar-rft: let's toast our bread with overheated RAM
2018-05-18T18:30:58Z antoszka: I think UIOP has some useful SLURP-STREAM implementation these days.
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2018-05-18T18:38:47Z shka_: haha
2018-05-18T18:38:49Z shka_: https://youtu.be/ecIWPzGEbFc?t=33m14s
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2018-05-18T18:39:03Z shka_: "We tried to kill it, but it just keeps coming back" xD
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2018-05-18T18:40:29Z antoszka: shka_: That talk is really depressing. I've seen it a few years ago, it shows how we've been pretty much running circles since the 60's.
2018-05-18T18:40:38Z shka_: jest
2018-05-18T18:40:51Z antoszka: We're on #lisp :)
2018-05-18T18:40:57Z shka_: oooh
2018-05-18T18:41:04Z shka_: wrong channel
2018-05-18T18:41:10Z antoszka: Well, not really :)
2018-05-18T18:41:16Z shka_: well, yes
2018-05-18T18:41:26Z shka_: it was just funny to me
2018-05-18T18:41:38Z shka_: Lisp: terminator of languages
2018-05-18T18:41:42Z shka_: it will be back
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2018-05-18T18:42:32Z antoszka: :)
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2018-05-18T19:00:25Z loli: trying to kill lisp with something better is a noble goal
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2018-05-18T19:02:17Z shka_: it reminds me "The Metal" by Tenacious D
2018-05-18T19:02:50Z White_Flame kills Lisp softly with his song
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2018-05-18T19:21:15Z cgay: Claiming that people are *trying to kill lisp* seems a little self-important to me. :)
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2018-05-18T19:44:48Z rumbler31: shka_: +1
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2018-05-18T19:51:14Z phoe: emaczen: hm? which response?
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2018-05-18T20:23:49Z emaczen: phoe: About the immobile pages
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2018-05-18T20:34:47Z makomo: robert smith did a video on lisp with computerphile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw-y3vNDRWk
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2018-05-18T20:35:18Z aeth: oh no
2018-05-18T20:35:27Z makomo: heh
2018-05-18T20:35:32Z aeth: probably not accurate
2018-05-18T20:35:40Z makomo: tbh i can't really say i'm satisfied with his explanations :^(
2018-05-18T20:36:18Z aeth: Having spent a *LOT* of time with Common Lisp, there's nothing magical or special about it.
2018-05-18T20:36:35Z aeth: What it has is the lack of a misfeature that virtually every other programming language has: elaborate syntax.
2018-05-18T20:37:06Z makomo: well the key point is your *LOT* :-)
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2018-05-18T20:37:16Z makomo: if everyone else did the same, people wouldn't be so "confused" about lisp
2018-05-18T20:37:45Z makomo: in the second part, i think robert mentioned EVAL way too many times, and gave everyone the impression that somehow it's about EVAL
2018-05-18T20:37:53Z makomo: so people are saying things like "so what? lots of languages have EVAL"
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2018-05-18T20:40:12Z aeth: There are three advantages to the simple syntax. Lisp gives your source code a level of polish you literally cannot get anywhere else (okay, there's probably a few other places) without writing your own programming language. And doing things at compile time is just about as easy as doing things at runtime, which is rare. (Similar levels of polish to point #1 are probably at a runtime cost, not at compile time.)
2018-05-18T20:40:45Z aeth: And you don't have to revise its standard every 4 years to give something new a convenient form in your language's syntax.
2018-05-18T20:41:41Z aeth: (Even CLOS could have been optional.)
2018-05-18T20:41:57Z phoe: emaczen: oh, okay
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2018-05-18T20:42:26Z aeth: I don't think Lisp popularizers generally hit on my points because... they're not magical.
2018-05-18T20:42:51Z makomo: aeth: well i agree, but that sort of thing comes after a certain amount of time/experience, and i don't think it applies just to lisp
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2018-05-18T20:44:10Z pjb: makomo: https://dspace.library.colostate.edu/bitstream/handle/10976/166750/Kilaru_uccs_0892N_10293.pdf?sequence=1
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2018-05-18T20:45:01Z pjb: makomo: with sexps, code injection are not possible.  with text, they're common occurences.
2018-05-18T20:45:17Z makomo: aeth: in general i think experienced people tend to forget the little things that bothered them when they were just starting out
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2018-05-18T20:45:40Z makomo: and then instead of emphasising certain stuff (that they found confusing early on), they just gloss over it or assume it should be clear to everyone
2018-05-18T20:45:58Z pjb: makomo: lisp invented in 1959, would prevent thousands of students getting PhDs, tens or hundreds of thousands of companies having contracts to "prevent" or correct the problem, that wouldn't exist in the first place.
2018-05-18T20:46:36Z makomo: pjb: i've already been sold on lisp :-). i'm mainly referring to the comments on the video
2018-05-18T20:46:45Z emaczen: will anyone inform me about SBCLs "immobile pages"?
2018-05-18T20:47:03Z pjb: makomo: it's the same thing with OSes. Without unix and C, (ie. if you used controlled execution programming languages such as lisp (without FFI), and capability-based OSes, you wouldn't have jobs for millions of programmers and computer security engineers.
2018-05-18T20:47:10Z emaczen: or point me somewhere? There isn't anything in the SBCL manual that I have
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2018-05-18T20:47:41Z pjb: makomo: basically, you'd halfe the computing GDP, and you'd have to make all those people work on solar system and galaxy colonization instead…
2018-05-18T20:47:46Z makomo: pjb: sometimes i wonder where would lisp be today if all of the effort that went into other languages went into *just* lisp
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2018-05-18T20:48:05Z pjb: makomo: that's the less.  wonder where would humanity be!
2018-05-18T20:48:15Z ZombieChicken: pjb: or they would be working on more useful and interesting problems than trying to (re)fix problems
2018-05-18T20:48:19Z makomo: haha :-)
2018-05-18T20:48:21Z aeth: makomo: Imo, Lisp was hard for me to learn initially because all of the material was treating it as this special magical thing (which is probably more accurate for Haskell than for Lisp). I picked it up at a much more rapid pace once I realized it was basically like any other language, with some key style differences, like relying on return values from everything being an expression rather than on setting variables. (e.g. use a cond to retu
2018-05-18T20:48:29Z makomo: perhaps it was a necessary evil :D
2018-05-18T20:48:53Z aeth: (e.g. use a cond to return one of several possible values, not an if/then/else block to set a variable)
2018-05-18T20:49:57Z makomo: aeth: mhm. i feel like that's a pretty common thing. reminds me of monads and burritos a little bit :-)
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2018-05-18T20:54:13Z nirved: emaczen: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sbcl-help-archive/_8oA5K0l0xw
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2018-05-18T20:56:30Z nirved: emaczen: and better explanation here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sbcl-help-archive/6vvc1qIc8vU
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2018-05-18T20:59:02Z emaczen: I'm interning a ton of symbols...
2018-05-18T20:59:10Z emaczen: Perhaps, I should just disable it
2018-05-18T20:59:11Z emaczen: ?
2018-05-18T21:01:24Z emaczen: nirved: Thanks
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2018-05-18T21:10:11Z emaczen: does this mean I have to build SBCL from sourcE?
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2018-05-18T21:35:35Z makomo: assuming a compiling lisp implementation (is it even possible for a cl implementation to not be compiling, since stuff like COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE are required?), what is the difference between lisp's "on the fly" compilation and JIT compilation?
2018-05-18T21:36:22Z makomo: is JIT just a subset of "on the fly" compilation? i.e. the moment when the code is compiled is (drum roll) just before running the code? while in lisp i can compile whenever i want?
2018-05-18T21:36:38Z White_Flame: JIT recompiles after first run
2018-05-18T21:36:46Z White_Flame: lisp is technically ahead-of-time compilation
2018-05-18T21:36:59Z White_Flame: the machine code is generated when the source code is introduced to the system
2018-05-18T21:37:31Z White_Flame: (in most circumstances; having a separate COMPILE call might do different things, but in practice, defining the function puts it in its final state that the implementation supports)
2018-05-18T21:38:02Z makomo: you say "recompiles", probably because you're assuming something like bytecode or?
2018-05-18T21:38:26Z White_Flame: most JIT systems look at collected heuristics durign runtime, then recompiles that same original source with different optimization assumptions
2018-05-18T21:38:34Z White_Flame: like which type is most often seen, etc
2018-05-18T21:38:58Z White_Flame: so it can generate native machine code multiple times for the same source code, as it learns more
2018-05-18T21:39:53Z White_Flame: deciding which calls to inline is also a decision that can be made after first run, depending on the sorts of call overhead it's measured
2018-05-18T21:40:10Z makomo: i see, but none of that is inherent to "*just* in time" compilation right? i.e. couldn't you do the same thing with ahead-of-time compilation?
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2018-05-18T21:40:35Z makomo: i mean, you learn something about the code, and then recompile parts of the code, but not *just* in time, rather *ahead* of time, just to be run later
2018-05-18T21:40:46Z White_Flame: right, the term has drifted in meaning from the literal wording
2018-05-18T21:40:51Z makomo: yeah, that's what bothers me
2018-05-18T21:41:20Z makomo: so let's say you're not defining a function but evaluating a form like (+ 1 2) at a lisp REPL
2018-05-18T21:41:24Z White_Flame: "just in time" can also imply the time that it's needed to be faster, as you notice where the timne is being spent
2018-05-18T21:41:29Z makomo: doesn't that technically do *just* in time compilation (and evaluation)?
2018-05-18T21:41:38Z makomo: because it compiles it and evaluates it right away?
2018-05-18T21:41:45Z White_Flame: yep
2018-05-18T21:42:11Z makomo: so then really the key point about lisp's compiler is its availability at runtime and the interface for the user
2018-05-18T21:42:35Z White_Flame: right.  But each individual function is only usually compiled once
2018-05-18T21:42:37Z makomo: i.e. it's not part of some runtime system you can't touch/see, but you can actually invoke it yourself, as the user
2018-05-18T21:42:41Z makomo: mhm
2018-05-18T21:42:51Z White_Flame: so if you have something declared inline, or redefine a macro, those effects won't get recompiled into prior-compiled functions
2018-05-18T21:43:05Z makomo: yup
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2018-05-18T21:45:28Z makomo: would you know how usual lisp compiling implementations work? i mean i get that generating machine code and executing it at run-time is not really any different than producing an executable and then executing that (ala C/C++/etc., but still)
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2018-05-18T21:46:01Z makomo: so when something gets compiled, the machine code gets placed somewhere in memory and the control is transfered to that machine code whenever the function is invoked for example?
2018-05-18T21:46:03Z makomo: something like that?
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2018-05-18T21:46:29Z White_Flame: yep.  Function objects are created which contain a block of machine code
2018-05-18T21:46:32Z makomo: so the machine code is sort of spread around in memory?
2018-05-18T21:46:42Z White_Flame: and those objects can be garbage collected
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2018-05-18T21:46:50Z makomo: it's not the classical "here's a bunch of machine code in an executable"
2018-05-18T21:47:05Z makomo: like an .exe file with all of its code sections and the like
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2018-05-18T21:48:23Z makomo: that's pretty cool, because that sort of "runtime code generation" is something you get to see while reverse engineering malware or self-modifying code, etc.
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2018-05-18T22:26:24Z aeth: I think that AOT Lisps have everything you need to make a JIT language within one
2018-05-18T22:27:37Z aeth: e.g. if a type is observed through some runtime to be common you could replace some running-in-Lisp language's function with a function that has a typecasw where the first argument is a faster function written for that type
2018-05-18T22:28:09Z aeth: s/first argument/first case/
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2018-05-18T22:34:51Z stylewarning: Here was round 2 of Computerphile and Lisp. Pardon the few gaffes you Lisp experts! https://youtu.be/dw-y3vNDRWk
2018-05-18T22:35:14Z stylewarning: Oh I see it was already discussed. :)
2018-05-18T22:38:04Z stylewarning: makomo: thanks for the feedback. I think you raise a lot of great points. It seems people got stuck on EVAL, which is a necessary component of the process, but maybe should have been buried a bit deeper. But if I said “macro”, people would likewise get up in arms.
2018-05-18T22:38:48Z makomo: stylewarning: oh wow, hi! :-)
2018-05-18T22:39:01Z makomo: i wasn't aware you went under this name, cool to know :)
2018-05-18T22:39:01Z stylewarning: In the numerous times I’ve tried to explain these concepts to people in less than 10 minutes, I’ve come to the conclusion that either the concept is somewhat intrinsically difficult to install in your brain, or I’m not a very good teacher. :)
2018-05-18T22:40:13Z makomo: yeah, i think a lot of people failed to see past the "woooow, what's so great about EVAL"
2018-05-18T22:40:18Z rme: It takes a lot of courage to agree to be in a video like that.
2018-05-18T22:40:32Z rme: So, nice job, stylewarning/
2018-05-18T22:40:47Z makomo: indeed :-)
2018-05-18T22:40:58Z stylewarning: The prompt was: “explain something well enough so a videographer could learn at least one new thing” :)
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2018-05-18T22:41:27Z makomo: the comments on the first video aren't too promising either
2018-05-18T22:41:45Z makomo: most of them are "all we hear is how good lisp is, where are the examples"
2018-05-18T22:41:55Z makomo: but most didn't realize there was a second video coming up
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2018-05-18T22:43:14Z makomo: one of the comments brought up something like "how is this different from C's (or C#'s, i'm not sure?) #define", which is an okay question imo
2018-05-18T22:43:34Z stylewarning: The first take of both videos was a bottom up description of the syntax of an S-expression followed by the semantics of EVAL, a la Allen
2018-05-18T22:43:45Z stylewarning: That was way, way too much.
2018-05-18T22:45:38Z makomo: (yeah, it was C. i somehow duplicated and merged the # with C and got C#)
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2018-05-18T22:49:13Z makomo: stylewarning: is there a third part coming up?
2018-05-18T22:49:30Z makomo: about QC?
2018-05-18T22:49:52Z drunk_foxx[m]: There is a preview at the end of the video, tends to be about quantum computing
2018-05-18T22:50:13Z stylewarning: makomo: about QC, but not Lisp
2018-05-18T22:50:20Z makomo: mhm
2018-05-18T22:50:37Z stylewarning: I also wrote a tutorial on how to write a quantum interpreter in Lisp that I’d love feedback on before wider publication
2018-05-18T22:51:04Z drunk_foxx[m]: Couldn't these topics be merged? Rigetti is known to use CL, don't they?
2018-05-18T22:51:09Z drunk_foxx[m]: Oh, great
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2018-05-18T22:54:30Z makomo: stylewarning: btw, i loved your "Excursions In Mathematics Using Lisp" video
2018-05-18T22:54:33Z makomo: really great
2018-05-18T22:54:59Z stylewarning: Two hours of examples there, haha
2018-05-18T22:55:16Z makomo: i wish that your rigetti talk had better audio, but i did watch it anyway, although it wasn't very pleasant :-)
2018-05-18T22:55:41Z makomo: hah yeah, should have been linked in the description of your computerphile video :D
2018-05-18T22:57:02Z stylewarning: makomo: drunk_foxx[m]: here’s the DRAFT of the tutorial. Feedback to robert@stylewarning.com would be appreciated! https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5k9pikkcx5besa/QUANTUM_INTERPRETER_DRAFT_STATUS.pdf?dl=0
2018-05-18T22:57:39Z makomo: this'll be good :-)
2018-05-18T22:58:42Z makomo: stylewarning: a quick question, is your old blog done for good? i.e. the only way to access is through archive.org?
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2018-05-18T23:02:14Z stylewarning: It’s done for good. It’s been on the back burner to get that content back up on stylewarning, but the db was hosed, so I have to copy manually
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2018-05-18T23:04:07Z aeth: The for loop example is a good one
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2018-05-18T23:05:59Z stylewarning: aeth: but it’s considered contrived to many because everybody already knows what a for-loop is (:
2018-05-18T23:06:33Z aeth: But I think many programmers can read between the lines and think about what loop construct they'd like to write as a macro.
2018-05-18T23:07:02Z stylewarning: I hope so.
2018-05-18T23:07:21Z aeth: e.g. It'd be trivial to write a foreach on top of map nil or loop, even though CL doesn't actually have one.
2018-05-18T23:07:26Z makomo: stylewarning: yeah, that's what i read out of the comments too. people are so accustomed to for loops that they take them for granted, but i do hope they could see the point
2018-05-18T23:07:38Z makomo: an example i really liked was about sorting networks in Let Over Lambda
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2018-05-18T23:08:52Z aeth: e.g. (foreach (foo foos) (whatever foo)) could just be macroexpanded into (map nil (lambda (foo) (whatever foo)) foos)
2018-05-18T23:09:10Z aeth: (loop doesn't quite do the same thing as that map nil, at least portably.)
2018-05-18T23:09:52Z stylewarning: I also thought about showing a truth table macro
2018-05-18T23:09:57Z stylewarning: That generates an optimal Boolean function
2018-05-18T23:10:13Z aeth: I think that's the problem with a video format like that.
2018-05-18T23:10:24Z aeth: A tutorial (video or otherwise) could go into more practical examples and build up
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2018-05-18T23:12:47Z aeth: for (ending with oh, hey, it's in the language as dotimes) -> foreach (trivial on top of map nil) -> something more elaborate, maybe
2018-05-18T23:13:13Z aeth: stylewarning: Were you interviewed for that channel or is that your channel?
2018-05-18T23:13:50Z stylewarning: Interviewed while I was in England to do a whole different thing (explain how to program a quantum computer)
2018-05-18T23:13:56Z aeth: ah
2018-05-18T23:14:02Z stylewarning: It was just happenstance and on-the-spot
2018-05-18T23:14:07Z stylewarning: The lack of prep shows :)
2018-05-18T23:14:25Z aeth: Well, you could always start a YouTube channel (if you don't already have one) and take advantage of the YouTube related algorithm that would hopefully pick up a more in depth (20-30 minute?) video
2018-05-18T23:14:42Z aeth: And, yes, I did notice lots of little nitpicky things that would be rude to pick. :-p
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2018-05-18T23:17:01Z aeth: (And in case anyone didn't pick it up, the difference between a foreach implemented via map nil and a foreach implemented via a portable usage of loop is that map nil is generic to all sequences, and the loop-based foreach would have to choose between lists or vectors.)
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2018-05-19T00:03:03Z emaczen: I think I failed to build SBCL from source correctly, how should I retry?
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2018-05-19T00:03:39Z emaczen: I think it failed because it keeps failing to load quicklisp
2018-05-19T00:03:49Z Bike: fails how
2018-05-19T00:04:33Z emaczen: I cross compiled with CCL, and it completed and then I ran the install.sh script
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2018-05-19T00:05:13Z emaczen: Then I started SBCL and I get a TYPE-ERROR "QL-UTIL" is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL) in quicklisp/setup.lisp
2018-05-19T00:05:43Z Bike: huh. no idea what that could be about
2018-05-19T00:06:02Z Bike: but if you built sbcl wrong that usually manifests as more like, lacking an extension, or just outrifhg failure
2018-05-19T00:06:09Z Bike: not... getting something that only kind of works
2018-05-19T00:06:39Z emaczen: I ran make.sh with the flags to remove immobile-code if that is relevant
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2018-05-19T00:16:35Z emaczen: should I uninstall? or how do I uninstall?
2018-05-19T00:16:41Z emaczen: Do I just run make.sh again?
2018-05-19T00:18:20Z jfrancis: In case anyone is still around from when I asked this morning about how to strip the Unicode Byte-Order-Mark from the beginning of an otherwise-clean 8-bit ASCII file, the suggestion of flexi-streams worked wonderfully. And is even portable. Thank you.
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2018-05-19T00:38:46Z emaczen: why does SBCL keep failing to load quicklisp.lisp? I get the error: QL-UTIL is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)?
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2018-05-19T00:43:55Z rumbler31: what happens if you load sbcl with no init file
2018-05-19T00:44:26Z rumbler31: although I feel like i've heard this one before
2018-05-19T00:44:36Z emaczen: nothing changes
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2018-05-19T00:45:03Z emaczen: you run sbcl --no-init right?
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2018-05-19T00:47:13Z emaczen: Ok, I just commented out my .sbclrc and SBCL will start, but then I just tried starting it in emacs, and it is telling me "The value SWANK/BACKEND is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)"
2018-05-19T00:47:58Z Bike: there a backtrace or anything
2018-05-19T00:48:29Z emaczen: no
2018-05-19T00:49:20Z emaczen: I'm going to try rebuilding from source, but removing the immobile-code flags
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2018-05-19T00:54:04Z mrcom: Are there any freenode archives (in particular, #lisp) which allow search over an entire year's IRC?
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2018-05-19T00:58:00Z mrcom: Xach: , or anyone, any thoughts on updates to "Go-to libraries"? (Zach's 2015-04-06 blog post)
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2018-05-19T01:09:23Z rumbler31: emaczen: I swear i've heard this before and it is some mundane thing
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2018-05-19T01:10:30Z rumbler31: oh. can you load sbcl without init, then manually load and start swank, then use slime-connect manually?
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2018-05-19T02:26:50Z emaczen: rumbler31: Nothing is working...
2018-05-19T02:27:15Z emaczen: There is no QL-UTIL symbol in quicklisp/setup.lisp either...
2018-05-19T02:27:46Z emaczen: Is there any way to uninstall SBCL? It would be nice if I could just start over
2018-05-19T02:29:44Z Bike: rm everything
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2018-05-19T02:33:25Z emaczen: Bike: where?
2018-05-19T02:33:36Z emaczen: I know SBCL is at /usr/local/bin/sbcl
2018-05-19T02:33:43Z Bike: where it installed to, assume you installed
2018-05-19T02:33:55Z rumbler31: did you use apt to install sbcl or slime?  if so, uninstall all that
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2018-05-19T02:34:58Z emaczen: I built from source...
2018-05-19T02:35:59Z emaczen: I'm trying to remove immobile-code
2018-05-19T02:39:12Z rumbler31: after you do that, start with an empty sbclrc, and follow the quicklisp setup steps
2018-05-19T02:39:40Z emaczen: Can you add flags with hoembrew (I'm running OS X)
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2018-05-19T02:42:39Z emaczen: Now, SBCL is telling me that it doensn't know how to require BSD-SOCKETS?
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2018-05-19T02:42:57Z rumbler31: what do you need homebrew for at the moment?
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2018-05-19T02:43:32Z emaczen: rumbler31: When I install stuff from homebrew it just seems to work, and this problem got started since I tried to build SBCL from source myself
2018-05-19T02:44:07Z rumbler31: do you install lisp stuff from homebrew?
2018-05-19T02:45:02Z emaczen: I have installed SBCL with homebrew
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2018-05-19T02:45:19Z on_ion: did you google
2018-05-19T02:45:21Z on_ion: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/35497099/
2018-05-19T02:45:32Z rumbler31: in order to bootstrap the sbcl compile I assume?
2018-05-19T02:46:27Z emaczen: on_ion: Yes, what I just followed similar advice using those immobile-code flags when you build SBCL from source with "sh make.sh"
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2018-05-19T02:48:29Z rumbler31: i would disable the sbcl homebrew package and get a recent binary instead
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2018-05-19T02:52:13Z emaczen: rumbler31: Ok I did that, but I still have the same issue now
2018-05-19T02:52:29Z emaczen: How do I uninstall everything that I built from source? This is no uninstall script.
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2018-05-19T02:52:53Z rumbler31: if you didn't place the installation andywere, just blow away the folders you're compiling in
2018-05-19T02:53:01Z rumbler31: also, look for fasl casche files
2018-05-19T02:53:56Z emaczen: where?
2018-05-19T02:55:53Z rumbler31: find / -type f -iname "*.fasl" or whatever the file ending sbcl fasls are
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2018-05-19T02:58:12Z rumbler31: i don't know if that is pertinent to the compilation of sbcl itself
2018-05-19T02:58:25Z rumbler31: but its the only other thing I can think of about "persistent files" that might need to be cleaned up
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2018-05-19T03:00:16Z on_ion: emaczen: hmm, is it full build? i just built from git yesterday with --fancy and worked great (debian)
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2018-05-19T03:00:47Z emaczen: on_ion: I downloaded a tar archive from sourceforge
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2018-05-19T03:01:22Z on_ion: hmm
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2018-05-19T03:07:28Z emaczen: on_ion: I finally got a restart, but now I'm back to an SBCL with immobile-code!
2018-05-19T03:08:01Z on_ion: i wish i could help
2018-05-19T03:08:49Z rumbler31: so you have a most recent build
2018-05-19T03:09:16Z emaczen: 1.4.7
2018-05-19T03:09:43Z rumbler31: how recent is that
2018-05-19T03:10:56Z on_ion: current
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2018-05-19T03:11:52Z emaczen: What versionare you using? I think it is the latest stable build? It was what was linked on sbcl.org
2018-05-19T03:12:16Z emaczen: according to sbcl.org April 29th
2018-05-19T03:12:45Z rumbler31: me? none, I usually use ccl
2018-05-19T03:13:12Z rumbler31: use that version you just made, to compile a source tree that includes your patch, or the removal of immoblie-code
2018-05-19T03:13:44Z emaczen: rumbler31: I mostly use SBCL and CCL, but I don't know how to get CCL fast enough for some programs I write that need speed
2018-05-19T03:14:04Z emaczen: rumbler31: Yep, I'm trying sh make.sh --without-immobile-code etc...
2018-05-19T03:14:37Z rumbler31: so are you also specifically passing in the lisp to use for compilation? I think you need to specify that to make.sh as well
2018-05-19T03:14:58Z emaczen: I'm using the SBCL I just got to work
2018-05-19T03:15:06Z emaczen: I was using CCL earlier and did have to specify
2018-05-19T03:15:47Z rumbler31: if you don't specify I think it uses whatever sbcl is in the path, if that isn't he one you just made then you might run into trouble
2018-05-19T03:15:54Z rumbler31: like... it would use the one you installed with homebrew
2018-05-19T03:16:14Z rumbler31: unless you're using the same source tree
2018-05-19T03:17:11Z rumbler31: but even then I don't know if make.sh knows to use the sbcl binary that you just built, it probably still looks in the path
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2018-05-19T03:26:48Z emaczen: I'm going to try removing all SBCL stuff I can find, and then building with CCL
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2018-05-19T03:36:29Z emaczen: fail...
2018-05-19T03:36:35Z emaczen: I'll try again in a little bit...
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2018-05-19T04:02:19Z ludston: Are there any good books out there for best practices for optimising for sbcl?
2018-05-19T04:02:56Z ludston: Ignoring the obvious answer, "just profile it and make it faster"
2018-05-19T04:04:07Z Bike: declare types, compile with high speed so it gives you a million optimization notes
2018-05-19T04:04:30Z emaczen: Is there anything special I need to know for installing SBCL from source with OSX?
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2018-05-19T04:12:32Z Bike: don't think so
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2018-05-19T04:37:23Z emaczen: shouldn't this be as simple as just evaluating: sh make.sh "path-to-ccl" --without-immobile-space --without-immobile-code --without-compact-instance-header?
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2018-05-19T04:39:05Z Bike: sounds about right.
2018-05-19T04:39:32Z emaczen: I'm trying that without the flags to see if I can even build SBCL correctly from source...
2018-05-19T04:39:34Z esthlos: could someone kindly tell me what I'm missing?: https://pastebin.com/Vv4p6s1H
2018-05-19T04:40:01Z Bike: esthlos: the push only affects the local variable, x
2018-05-19T04:40:29Z Bike: the function "e" is only passed the value of *global*, and doesn't know anything about that variable itself, per the basic evaluation rules
2018-05-19T04:41:39Z esthlos: aha, x is a lexical binding, I see
2018-05-19T04:42:34Z esthlos: thanks
2018-05-19T04:42:42Z Bike: no prob
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2018-05-19T04:43:31Z pierpal: wouldn't work even if x was special. that's not the point
2018-05-19T04:44:44Z ludston: ^ Thanks Bike
2018-05-19T04:45:42Z esthlos: x is lexical in the scope of the environment pointed to by the procedure; that's what I mean
2018-05-19T04:46:20Z Bike: well the lexical part isn't important. the fact is that there is a binding, and that's what push alters.
2018-05-19T04:46:23Z pierpal: that's not the explanation why it does not work
2018-05-19T04:46:45Z ludston: It's altering the value of the variable x, and not the value of *global*
2018-05-19T04:47:39Z esthlos: good to know
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2018-05-19T04:48:47Z emaczen: So I can build SBCL fine from source, It just fails with that strange QL-UTIL type error when I add the immobile-code flags
2018-05-19T04:49:06Z ludston: This is probably not how it actually works, but I always think of it as, (defmacro push (x y) `(setf ,y (cons ,x ,y)))
2018-05-19T04:49:36Z Bike: no, other than some boring details that's push
2018-05-19T04:50:09Z on_ion: emaczen: what are you actually doing? =)
2018-05-19T04:51:19Z emaczen: Just trying to build SBCL with immobile-pages since I keep getting an error that says no more immobile pages.
2018-05-19T04:52:03Z emaczen: maybe I should just download an older version of SBCL...
2018-05-19T04:52:17Z emaczen: How good is CMUCL?
2018-05-19T04:52:42Z on_ion: if you got sbcl compiled new, just try what you were doing again ?
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2018-05-19T04:53:00Z on_ion: maybe you dont need to worry about immobile page[s] if that is not the source/root/cause of the problem
2018-05-19T04:53:14Z on_ion: though, so you know, this is my first time hearing about "immobile pages" =)
2018-05-19T04:53:41Z esthlos: what I still don't fully understand, which is embarassing at this point, is that if we replace *global* with, say, an instance of a CLOS object (with appropriate push method, etc.), then *global* is mutated
2018-05-19T04:54:01Z Bike: "with appropriate push method" means you're doing something completely different.
2018-05-19T04:54:22Z Bike: (push x y) alters a variable binding. (push x (slot-value ...)) modifies an object. they are pretty distinct things to do.
2018-05-19T04:54:51Z emaczen: on_ion: Some others here linked me to some mailing lists where people got the same error I did, and emailed SBCL devs
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2018-05-19T04:55:13Z ludston: It's like this: *global* has a memory dress, and x in (let ((x '()))) has a memory address
2018-05-19T04:55:21Z emaczen: The devs said that if your program uses a lot of symbols, then immobile pages can be exhausted
2018-05-19T04:55:24Z emaczen: I am using a lot of symbols
2018-05-19T04:55:32Z ludston: (push 5 x) modifies x, and (push 5 *global*) modifies global
2018-05-19T04:55:42Z ludston: Because they are different adresses
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2018-05-19T04:56:48Z ludston: The fact that x, and *global*'s memory addesses happen to have the same value at first is just a coincidence, since you passed the value of *global* into the address of x
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2018-05-19T04:57:07Z Bike: i don't think adding a concept of "addresses" is really going to make it clearer...
2018-05-19T04:58:06Z ludston: Doesn't it? Maybe I am spending too much time with low-level languages
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2018-05-19T05:00:55Z ludston: What are you using so many symbols for emaczen?
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2018-05-19T05:01:16Z esthlos: ok, I will think those explanations over
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2018-05-19T05:02:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-19T05:02:27Z ludston: Good afternoon
2018-05-19T05:02:41Z emaczen: Bike: Nope, I get the QL-UTIL type error again
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2018-05-19T05:05:36Z on_ion: what is a lot of symbols? can they be interned selectively ?
2018-05-19T05:05:50Z emaczen: What do you mean by selectively?
2018-05-19T05:05:58Z on_ion: or established in some other way, such as using symbol plist ?
2018-05-19T05:06:06Z on_ion: emaczen: just the ones you need. by selection.
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2018-05-19T05:07:42Z emaczen: on_ion: I could probably use strings instead, would that be recommended?
2018-05-19T05:08:49Z on_ion: well.  it is starting to feel like a different approach could be considered if you are maxing out some runtime limits
2018-05-19T05:10:40Z emaczen: Wow, I finally got rid of that QL-UTIL error
2018-05-19T05:10:53Z emaczen: I had to track down a bunch of fasl directories and delete them
2018-05-19T05:11:14Z emaczen: Although, I did try deleting /.cache/common-lisp previously
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2018-05-19T05:12:37Z emaczen: on_ion: I'm probably going to re-write my main code at some point using structs and defuns but until then, I'm just going to do what I go to do!
2018-05-19T05:13:13Z on_ion: okay, sounds good =)
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2018-05-19T05:14:58Z ludston: emaczen: As a test, I interned an entire english dictionary into sbcl and it worked fine. You must have a LOT of symbols.
2018-05-19T05:15:23Z emaczen: ludston: Yep! I've done that too
2018-05-19T05:15:36Z on_ion: hah
2018-05-19T05:16:10Z emaczen: I probably need to learn more about efficiency and trade some for style/convenience
2018-05-19T05:16:15Z emaczen: but until then..
2018-05-19T05:16:16Z emaczen: ha
2018-05-19T05:18:18Z beizhia: hope I'm not interrupting, but could someone give me a sanity check on this hello-world I'm trying to do?
2018-05-19T05:18:21Z ludston: Looks like its using a casual 1.3Gb of ram to do it. I'd stick with strings.
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2018-05-19T05:18:39Z beizhia: I'm not able to require my asdf system, but its the same config I have for another project and that one works fine
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2018-05-19T05:20:19Z beizhia: is it ok to post links here? Just a gist of about 30 lines
2018-05-19T05:21:35Z beach: beizhia: Yes, a link to the code is fine.
2018-05-19T05:22:35Z beizhia: sweet! https://gist.github.com/jasonrobot/17d2edcc369b2beafc4dbbcad9cd0db4
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2018-05-19T05:23:34Z beizhia: I've got basically the same config for another project, and I'm able to build an executable with asdf:make, but I can't even (require :hello-world) for some reason
2018-05-19T05:25:56Z ludston: beizhia: How does sbcl know where to load hello.asd from?
2018-05-19T05:27:11Z beizhia: I have a symlink to my code in  ~/quicklisp/local-projects/hello-world/
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2018-05-19T05:29:28Z beach: beizhia: You need to have the same name of the file and the system.
2018-05-19T05:30:33Z beach: beizhia: ASDF does not search all your available .asd files for a system with the right name.  It turns the system name into a file name and looks for that file name.
2018-05-19T05:30:49Z beizhia: ahhhh that would make sense
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2018-05-19T05:34:30Z beizhia: still saying "dont know how to REQUIRE HELLO-WORLD"
2018-05-19T05:36:13Z beizhia: changed the filenames to hello-world.asd and hello-world.lisp, updated the system def to have ((:file "hello-world")) in the components
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2018-05-19T05:37:20Z on_ion: i link my .asd-containing folders in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2018-05-19T05:37:27Z on_ion: then i (ql:quickload :...)
2018-05-19T05:38:51Z beizhia: ql:quickload is also giving me: System "hello-world" not found
2018-05-19T05:38:51Z beizhia:  
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2018-05-19T05:42:15Z ludston: beizhia
2018-05-19T05:42:29Z ludston: Change the directory that it is in from hello-world to hello_world
2018-05-19T05:47:56Z beizhia: ludston: I think that has done it!
2018-05-19T05:48:20Z ludston: It's a mystery.
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2018-05-19T05:49:40Z beizhia: ya... expecially since my other is called "bulk-rename", and that's what I copied all this from
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2018-05-19T05:49:59Z ludston: beizhia: Then you can change it back. Looks like asdf does some caching
2018-05-19T05:50:12Z beizhia: I was afraid it might have been caching
2018-05-19T05:51:47Z beizhia: yes, you were correct. After renaming back to hello-world, it builds again
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2018-05-19T05:52:21Z beizhia: ok, thanks so much for the help everyone!
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2018-05-19T06:42:41Z on_ion: does SBCL have a shared library to link to? like ECL
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2018-05-19T06:43:05Z phoe: on_ion: no.
2018-05-19T06:43:27Z phoe: you can't easily link against SBCL from C. You'll need to link against C from SBCL.
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2018-05-19T06:56:55Z on_ion: phoe: okay
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2018-05-19T07:46:11Z on_ion: whoa, cant do underscores in function/symbol names? (defcfun "XT_Alpha" :void) => XT-ALPHA
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2018-05-19T07:56:04Z edgar-rft: on_ion: yes, you can, but defcfun is not part of the ANSI standard, so its behaviour is implementation-dependent
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2018-05-19T07:59:34Z on_ion: oops, i got it, https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcfun.html
2018-05-19T07:59:45Z on_ion: wasnt sure if underscore was allowed in basic symbols for some reason =)
2018-05-19T08:00:36Z on_ion: i dont understand this, however: name ::= lisp-name [foreign-name] | foreign-name [lisp-name]
2018-05-19T08:02:48Z edgar-rft: that means you must at least specify one of both
2018-05-19T08:03:10Z edgar-rft: google for "BNF syntax"
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2018-05-19T08:09:59Z on_ion: ohh i see it, lisp-name is symbol, foreign-name is a string. =)
2018-05-19T08:10:11Z on_ion: i wasnt sure how defcfun could tell those two things apart otherwise
2018-05-19T08:10:58Z beach: on_ion: I strongly recommend you program in Common Lisp rather than in some other language.
2018-05-19T08:11:33Z on_ion: beach: doing so! i really have to, and i totally agree
2018-05-19T08:11:49Z on_ion: i am only going to put some guts into a C file so i dont have to touch it ever again
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2018-05-19T08:12:12Z on_ion: just because the libraries i am interfacing are trying to be their own utopian api system platform environment
2018-05-19T08:12:18Z on_ion: (SDL)
2018-05-19T08:13:59Z on_ion: like that => https://github.com/quakerquickoats/hoovy/blob/master/nova/nova.lisp
2018-05-19T08:14:36Z on_ion: i have been having troubles with SDL and the REPL, SDL wants to take over the world and be its own exclusive thing, and i just want to lisp
2018-05-19T08:15:08Z beach: Yes, more often than not, using foreign code creates problems rather than solving them.
2018-05-19T08:15:52Z on_ion: yea.. and its driving me bonkers. just decided today to stuff everything ugly into C because i need lisp
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2018-05-19T08:16:09Z on_ion: well just a few functions basically, init, shutdown, print, update
2018-05-19T08:17:01Z on_ion: SDL has its own thread stuff and whatnot, ive seen countless ways of dealing with it in CL, amongst the various SDL1/2 bindings for CL, and i'm accustomed to doing SDL/opengl by hand and C anyhow. it feels really good also, which is the most important to me
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2018-05-19T08:54:30Z on_ion: all problems solved in one hours time =)
2018-05-19T08:54:38Z on_ion: hours'*/hour's*
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2018-05-19T09:27:43Z ludston: on_ion: I have played with sdl2 + lisp before
2018-05-19T09:27:57Z on_ion: i feel for ya
2018-05-19T09:28:23Z ludston: It's working pretty great for me though. I wound up hacking on slime a little though
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2018-05-19T09:29:05Z ludston: Step one, pop (sdl2:make-this-main-thread) around your main thread
2018-05-19T09:30:11Z ludston: Step two, pop (swank:handle-requests swank:*emacs-connection* t) somewhere in your (:idle) so that you can still use the emacs repl
2018-05-19T09:30:35Z on_ion: ah yep! i got those done
2018-05-19T09:30:46Z on_ion: in my lisp/sdl testing
2018-05-19T09:31:22Z ludston: Got any more tips then?
2018-05-19T09:31:28Z on_ion: there were threading quirks and input event handling anomolies , works good right now though by using a C lib
2018-05-19T09:31:46Z on_ion: yea, an alternative to sdl
2018-05-19T09:31:58Z ludston: There shouldn't be threading quirks if you are only using one thread
2018-05-19T09:32:16Z ludston: I mean, I haven't experienced any threading problems
2018-05-19T09:32:39Z on_ion: with slime,one thread isnt really possible
2018-05-19T09:32:57Z on_ion: i want to evaluate code and type stuff in repl while the SDL window is rendering its loop
2018-05-19T09:33:18Z ludston: Yes, I don't think you understood what I mean by pop (swank:handle-requests swank:*emacs-connection* t) somewhere in your event loop
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2018-05-19T09:33:44Z ludston: This is the part of slime that handles incoming requests from emacs
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2018-05-19T09:34:13Z ludston: Thus the slime repl will still work whilst sdl2 is running
2018-05-19T09:34:35Z ludston: And also, any changes that you make via slime will be evaluated at a safe time during the event loop
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2018-05-19T09:37:38Z on_ion: i had all the stuff working, but sdl2:with-event-loop didnt work at all
2018-05-19T09:38:25Z on_ion: https://github.com/quakerquickoats/hoovy/blob/master/nova-cl/nova.lisp  <-- stuff on the bottom here
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2018-05-19T09:39:09Z ludston: Hmm. I have everything working, plus cairo integration
2018-05-19T09:39:42Z on_ion: ohh? interesting, cairo would be nice
2018-05-19T09:40:11Z ludston: I can probably hack a cut down version without all of my cruft
2018-05-19T09:40:28Z ludston: But I'll need to fork all of the dependencies that I've been hacking on too :P
2018-05-19T09:40:55Z on_ion: hmm =) i wonder if its similar to that lisp file there, or how a simple "thing" could be distributed for anyone to use
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2018-05-19T09:42:01Z on_ion: i am not even sure if i could even have SDL running in a loop in the background with C, hrm
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2018-05-19T10:13:22Z ludston: on_ion: Like this
2018-05-19T10:13:23Z ludston: https://youtu.be/KAp7LFGcPfQ
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2018-05-19T13:28:20Z nowhere_man: Hi all
2018-05-19T13:28:30Z nowhere_man: I think I'm understanding shadowing wrong
2018-05-19T13:28:39Z nowhere_man: I'm writing a package where I define a function EVAL
2018-05-19T13:29:10Z nowhere_man: So I do (uiop:define-package :foo (:shadow #:eval) (:use :cl))
2018-05-19T13:29:50Z nowhere_man: But still, when I do my (defun eval () ...), I get the error about SBCL's package lock on CL
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2018-05-19T13:35:10Z Bike: are you actually in the foo package?
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2018-05-19T13:40:44Z nowhere_man: Haha, funny thing, I am in my code, but wasn't in my small test code
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2018-05-19T13:45:08Z nowhere_man: This works: https://pastebin.com/2bJ006aC
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2018-05-19T13:46:31Z nowhere_man: damnit, my shadow was before use in my real code and that was it
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2018-05-19T15:02:42Z on_ion: ludston: sorry i went to rest. checking that now
2018-05-19T15:03:13Z on_ion: ahh i cannot see youtube from eww =)
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2018-05-19T18:15:20Z puchacz: hi, when starting a new thread, what happens to special variables (I think it is the correct term) in the new thread please?
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2018-05-19T18:16:17Z puchacz: by special variables I mean declaring something first in source code with (defparameter *foo* nil) and then binding them dynamically with (let ((*foo* :new-value)) .... (bt:make-thread (lambda ())))
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2018-05-19T18:17:01Z puchacz: so 2 questions really, (1) am I using the term "special variables" correctly and (2) what will new thread see and is it guaranteed or implementation specific?
2018-05-19T18:18:22Z puchacz: the docs mentions *default-special-bindings*
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2018-05-19T18:25:08Z aeth: I think that's implementation-specific
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2018-05-19T18:25:48Z Bike: yes, but there's a basic standard.
2018-05-19T18:25:58Z Bike: puchacz: https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation see make-thread documentation
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2018-05-19T18:29:12Z puchacz: Bike - "Local bindings are local to the thread they are introduced in," - does it mean that if I want to "copy" a special variable, I need to create a local variable with let first (i.e. normal lexical scope, not rebinding global variable) and then use these variable values in new thread to rebind global variable in the new thread?
2018-05-19T18:29:51Z Bike: you could do that, but default-special-bindings is there too.
2018-05-19T18:30:12Z puchacz: (defparameter *foo* nil) (let ((*foo* :value)) .... and then (let ((my-foo *foo*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* my-foo)) ... ?
2018-05-19T18:30:25Z Bike: perhaps, but i'd use default-special-bindings.
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2018-05-19T18:30:47Z puchacz: Bike: what would it look like in my case pls?
2018-05-19T18:31:33Z Bike: (let ((*default-special-bindings* `((*foo* ',*foo*))))) ...) or something i think
2018-05-19T18:31:52Z puchacz: aeth, Bike: ok, thanks
2018-05-19T18:32:19Z jackdaniel: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (break "~s" *foo*)) :initial-bindings (list (cons '*foo* 3))) ;is an alternative
2018-05-19T18:32:46Z jackdaniel: `((*foo* . ,3)) ; for being brief
2018-05-19T18:33:17Z puchacz: jackdaniel: ok, looks good, tks
2018-05-19T18:34:11Z puchacz: btw, what I called "special variables" are really called special variables, aren't they?
2018-05-19T18:34:19Z aeth: Interesting. I've always just done (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* 3)) ...)))
2018-05-19T18:34:40Z puchacz: global first, then rebind with let to change to new value in dynamic scope only
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2018-05-19T18:35:56Z jackdaniel: special bindings
2018-05-19T18:36:08Z jackdaniel: variable "just is" :-)
2018-05-19T18:36:14Z puchacz: ok :)
2018-05-19T18:36:39Z jackdaniel: hm, I'm apparently wrong
2018-05-19T18:36:53Z jackdaniel: according to glossary, variable is special
2018-05-19T18:37:18Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#dynamic_variable ; http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#special_variable
2018-05-19T18:37:41Z puchacz: okidoki
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2018-05-19T18:38:17Z jackdaniel: but you may also mean `dynamic binding' (as an excuse, that was not 100% wrong)
2018-05-19T18:38:25Z jackdaniel: s/that was/that I was/
2018-05-19T18:39:04Z puchacz: well, I am trying to use standard vocabulary to be understood
2018-05-19T18:39:14Z jackdaniel: understandable
2018-05-19T18:39:30Z puchacz: the key thing for me that "special" really refers to the sequence of defparameter/defvar and let rebinding
2018-05-19T18:39:54Z puchacz: which shadows global value with dynamically scoped value from "let"
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2018-05-19T18:43:26Z Bike: you can do dynamic bindings without there being a global
2018-05-19T18:43:55Z puchacz: Bike: there is a property or something stored under the symbol naming the variable, isn't it?
2018-05-19T18:44:02Z Bike: the symbol-value, yes.
2018-05-19T18:44:11Z Bike: but i mean, you don't need to use defparameter or defvar.
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2018-05-19T18:44:44Z Bike: also you shouldn't think of the symbol-value as being an intrinsic part of the symbol. you're worried about threads, well, generally each thread has its own storage of symbol values
2018-05-19T18:44:45Z puchacz: Bike: declare special something? I think I have seen it but
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2018-05-19T18:44:49Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-19T18:44:51Z Bike: it's pretty rare.
2018-05-19T18:45:11Z puchacz: can you remind me pls?
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2018-05-19T18:46:14Z aeth: Bike: What about functions? If I recompile a function in one thread it eventually shows up on the other in its redefined state when the part of that loop comes around. It might not be immediate though, I'm not sure.
2018-05-19T18:46:16Z Bike: it's symbol. if you (declare (special whatever)) in a scope, whatever will be a special variable in that scope.
2018-05-19T18:46:44Z puchacz: ok, tks
2018-05-19T18:46:54Z Bike: aeth: there are no dynamic function bindings, obviously.
2018-05-19T18:47:11Z aeth: Yes, but how do function globals differ from dynamic globals?
2018-05-19T18:47:33Z Bike: there are no dynamic bindings, so there's no need for thread local bindings
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2018-05-19T18:53:28Z puchacz: sometimes I feel Lisp is too complex, but then I remind myself that other languages usually leave these problems as "gray areas" :-)
2018-05-19T18:54:09Z puchacz: or make things very simple by disallowing things
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2018-05-19T19:00:18Z aeth: Or are one implementation.
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2018-05-19T19:00:36Z aeth: What languages have healthy multi-implementation communities? C and C++ and JavaScript immediately come to mind.
2018-05-19T19:01:12Z aeth: Languages like Python have multiple implementations but there's one true implementation above the rest.
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2018-05-19T19:02:05Z MichaelRaskin: Lua? They have a split which side is One True Implementation…
2018-05-19T19:02:20Z aeth: Schemes might as well all be one-implementation languages. Lua is an interesting case in that LuaJIT might have replaced the one true implementation in most places because of performance.
2018-05-19T19:03:01Z aeth: Java afaik has several implementations, but Oracle would like that to stop.
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2018-05-19T19:06:39Z aeth: SQL might be like Scheme, I don't know enough about it. And I think that's literally it, unless including old languages with competing commercial implementations (Fortran, COBOL, Pascal, etc.)
2018-05-19T19:07:20Z aeth: (I think each of those only has one major FOSS implementation)
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2018-05-19T19:08:46Z MichaelRaskin: Pascal: gpc/fpc, and no one uses gpc, right?
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2018-05-19T19:09:38Z MichaelRaskin: Haskell
2018-05-19T19:09:55Z aeth: I thought ghc was the one true Haskell implementation?
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2018-05-19T19:10:52Z MichaelRaskin: Well, next you will say SBCL is one true open source Common Lisp?
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2018-05-19T19:11:14Z Bike: i think other lisp implementations are used more than hugs or whatever
2018-05-19T19:11:16Z q1999: anyone developing in sbcl on emacs using slime who is willing to help with a (probably setup) problem?
2018-05-19T19:11:33Z aeth: If you went into #haskell how many people are using the GHC vs. other implementations? Here, the CCLers are a vocal minority and pretty much every SBCLer who writes libraries tests on at least CCL
2018-05-19T19:12:06Z puchacz: people use lispworks too, although commercial
2018-05-19T19:12:31Z puchacz: not sure if people really use franz these days
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2018-05-19T19:12:50Z Bike: q1999: you should go ahead and describe the problem
2018-05-19T19:13:04Z aeth: I think ECL is #3 here. It might not be #3 in the Lisp community in general. It's probably really hard to determine a #3
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2018-05-19T19:17:26Z q1999: ok. installed sbcl, using emacs 24.5.1 on windows 7, using slime from elpa. when I create a new package using quicklisp, I can quickload the package and use in-package to move the reple from cl-user to package. but when I close emacse, go to the root, start slime and try to quickload the same package, all I get is SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND. It is driving me up the wall. uninstalled and reinstalled everything except emacs, but still no go.
2018-05-19T19:18:18Z Xach: not too hard, do not fret
2018-05-19T19:18:29Z Xach: q1999: where is the new thing you created located?
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2018-05-19T19:20:38Z q1999: I start slime from dired buffer or test.lisp buffer, the package asd and lisp are one folder (named after the package) down. starting slime from within that folder results in the same pesky SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND.
2018-05-19T19:21:15Z Xach: Like, quite literally, what is the path to the thing?
2018-05-19T19:21:28Z Xach: c:\my-cool-stuff\blah\test.lisp?
2018-05-19T19:22:10Z q1999: ah. "c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map/bit-stream"
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2018-05-19T19:22:19Z q1999: too deep?
2018-05-19T19:22:36Z Xach: q1999: not at all. you can put stuff anywhere. but you do have to teach asdf how to find it (or put it in a place asdf already knows about).
2018-05-19T19:23:03Z q1999: how would I do that?
2018-05-19T19:23:07Z Xach: q1999: one easy way to teach asdf is (push "c:/Users/.../path/to/project/" asdf:*central-registry*)
2018-05-19T19:23:32Z Xach: q1999: quicklisp also extends asdf by making it search <quicklisp-directory>/local-projects/ specially.
2018-05-19T19:23:44Z Xach: I usually put my projects in local-projects like that.
2018-05-19T19:24:05Z Xach: there are ways to teach asdf to scan directory trees. i find the asdf config syntax too complicated to remember so i don't use it much.
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2018-05-19T19:25:20Z q1999: ok. I'll first try the push. (I was following Baggers on youtube and there was no mention of this. probably should have rtfm, right?)
2018-05-19T19:27:08Z Xach: q1999: I'm not sure - it's something that you internalize fairly early, so maybe it wasn't on his mind to explain
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2018-05-19T19:31:36Z q1999: I tried a quick and dirty, but for now no success with the push. think I need to mess about a bit, read about the manual about push.
2018-05-19T19:32:55Z Xach: q1999: I'd love to help further, if you're up for it.
2018-05-19T19:33:04Z Xach: q1999: what did you type as the push command?
2018-05-19T19:34:11Z q1999: "(push "c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/" asdf:*central-registry*)"
2018-05-19T19:34:38Z Xach: q1999: what is the name of your .asd file?
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2018-05-19T19:35:30Z pjb: q1999: don't quote sexps.
2018-05-19T19:35:35Z q1999: it's "bit-stream.asd"
2018-05-19T19:35:54Z q1999: no, I do this just in erc. not good?
2018-05-19T19:36:02Z Xach: Do what in ERC?
2018-05-19T19:36:08Z q1999: irc
2018-05-19T19:36:13Z pjb: q1999:  in general, I would advise to use #P"" instead of strings for paths, notably if they contain system specific notations (eg. ~/ on unix, C: on ms-dos).
2018-05-19T19:36:19Z Xach: I must be missing some context, sorry.
2018-05-19T19:36:43Z pjb: q1999: erc is in emacs, it's easier without quotes to evaluate the sexp locally.
2018-05-19T19:36:43Z Xach: q1999: what do you get if you try (probe-file "c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/bit-stream.asd")?
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2018-05-19T19:37:05Z pjb: q1999: but foremore, it introduces an ambiguity, since a string is also a sexp!
2018-05-19T19:37:30Z pjb: "(+ 1 2)"  #| --> "(+ 1 2)" |#  (+ 1 2) #| --> 3 |#
2018-05-19T19:37:59Z pjb: q1999: also, you didn't quote it correctly, you forgot to escape the double quotes!
2018-05-19T19:38:09Z pjb: "(push \"c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/\" asdf:*central-registry*)"
2018-05-19T19:38:47Z q1999: the probe gives me NIL
2018-05-19T19:38:57Z pjb: Now, with *central-registry*, you may want to use pushnew: (pushnew #P"c:/Users/SENNAC/Desktop/Fotos/Nieuwe map (5)/" asdf:*central-registry* :test (function equalp))
2018-05-19T19:39:23Z pjb: q1999: probe, like open, merges the path with *default-pathname-defaults*, not with the paths in asdf:*central-registry*.
2018-05-19T19:39:37Z Xach: q1999: is there no bit-stream.asd file in that directory?
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2018-05-19T19:40:13Z pjb: (find-if (lambda (*default-pathname-defaults*) (probe-file #P"bit-stream.asd")) asdf:*central-registry*)
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2018-05-19T19:46:10Z q1999: tried the pushnew but am now on a merry go round, lol. there is a bit-stream.asd in the dir.
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2018-05-19T19:46:55Z q1999: pff, I'm back at the prompt cl-user>
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2018-05-19T19:48:12Z q1999: after the pushnew and a ql:quickload :bit-stream, slime came back with: (ql:quickload :bit-stream)
2018-05-19T19:48:12Z q1999: To load "bit-stream":
2018-05-19T19:48:12Z q1999:   Load 1 ASDF system:
2018-05-19T19:48:12Z q1999:     bit-stream
2018-05-19T19:48:15Z q1999: ; Loading "bit-stream"
2018-05-19T19:48:18Z q1999: [package bit-stream];
2018-05-19T19:48:22Z q1999:                     ; compilation unit aborted
2018-05-19T19:48:25Z q1999:                     ;   caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
2018-05-19T19:48:27Z q1999: ..............................
2018-05-19T19:48:30Z q1999: [package bit-stream];
2018-05-19T19:48:33Z q1999:                     ; compilation unit aborted
2018-05-19T19:48:36Z q1999:                     ;   caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
2018-05-19T19:48:40Z q1999: ..............................
2018-05-19T19:48:43Z q1999: [package bit-stream];
2018-05-19T19:48:46Z q1999:                     ; compilation unit aborted
2018-05-19T19:48:49Z q1999:                     ;   caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
2018-05-19T19:48:52Z q1999: ..............................
2018-05-19T19:48:56Z q1999: [package bit-stream];
2018-05-19T19:48:57Z q1999:                     ; compilation unit aborted
2018-05-19T19:49:00Z q1999:                     ;   caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
2018-05-19T19:49:03Z q1999: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-PCL::NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD-ERROR {25107721}>.
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2018-05-19T19:58:59Z q1999: thanks for now Xach and pjb. I'm parting to have a closer look at asdf registry docs and your feedback. If you don't see me back soon, your input helped to solve my problem.
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2018-05-19T20:03:35Z aeth: Is there a way to print a CLOS object and all of its slots? The debugger is not a good solution because there are just so many objects. I have to dissect them programatically.
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2018-05-19T20:04:29Z Bike: inspect, describe
2018-05-19T20:04:36Z Bike: if you want something else, use mop
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2018-05-19T20:10:43Z Bike: or just do something specific to whatever class you're actually concerned with
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2018-05-20T00:12:15Z on_ion: is there a temp setting of a symbol? ie (while-set (abc 5) ...) where abc is returned to original value? probably LET ?
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2018-05-20T00:19:20Z Bike: well, let is a binding rather than a setting, but it's pretty much the same
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2018-05-20T00:22:06Z on_ion: ah yeah =)
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2018-05-20T00:40:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: are there any resources for learning McCLIM?
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2018-05-20T00:42:41Z aeth: theemacsshibe[m]: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2018-05-20T00:43:23Z theemacsshibe[m]: i should've seen that coming
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2018-05-20T00:47:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'll just look through the examples
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2018-05-20T00:48:14Z edgar-rft: theemacsshibe[m], a few more documents are linked in the "Reference" section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager
2018-05-20T00:48:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: um thanks
2018-05-20T00:49:33Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'm just trying to write some simple GUI applications and honestly most of the background crap goes over my head
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2018-05-20T00:59:56Z drmeister: What is the point of (documentation something t) ?
2018-05-20T01:00:23Z drmeister: clhs documentation
2018-05-20T01:00:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-05-20T01:00:36Z drmeister: It says when the second argument is t:   Returns a documentation string specialized on the class of the argument x itself. For example, if x is a function, the documentation string associated with the function x is returned.
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2018-05-20T01:01:20Z Bike: the second argument of documentation is only not t when the first argument is a name rather than a thing
2018-05-20T01:01:24Z drmeister: ECL does this...
2018-05-20T01:01:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lYWWd0FT/
2018-05-20T01:01:28Z Bike: so you do (documentation 'name 'function) but (documentation #'name t)
2018-05-20T01:01:29Z drmeister: As does Clasp
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2018-05-20T01:03:34Z Bike: in clasp functions don't actually have docstrings, so if you have like (lambda () "docstring" nil) there's no way to get at the string, as it's destroyed during compilation
2018-05-20T01:03:34Z drmeister: Peter Seibel's "manifest" system doesn't work on Clasp - but parts of it - most importantly "toot" does.
2018-05-20T01:03:37Z Bike: which is kind of unfortunate
2018-05-20T01:05:34Z drmeister: They could have docstrings   BuiltinClosure_O has a docstring slot.
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2018-05-20T01:05:51Z drmeister: Who destroys it during compilation?
2018-05-20T01:06:21Z Bike: we do. we don't use it. it's ignored
2018-05-20T01:06:31Z Bike: the lambda list too
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2018-05-20T01:07:38Z drmeister: fixable?
2018-05-20T01:07:55Z Bike: sure
2018-05-20T01:08:01Z Bike: just have to save it like the name
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2018-05-20T01:49:51Z drmeister: Bike: I hit this problem...
2018-05-20T01:49:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/4rbUEIq1/
2018-05-20T01:50:13Z drmeister: It's in kildall
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2018-05-20T05:05:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-20T05:05:26Z stylewarning: Hello
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2018-05-20T05:10:04Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi beach
2018-05-20T05:10:19Z beach: stylewarning: Great videos.  Are there more coming?  I have seen 2 so far.
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2018-05-20T05:10:53Z stylewarning: beach: only had time for two Lispy ones
2018-05-20T05:11:00Z beach: OK.
2018-05-20T05:11:01Z stylewarning: One about quantum computation will come out too
2018-05-20T05:11:09Z stylewarning: I hope to make more when I make it back to England
2018-05-20T05:11:21Z stylewarning: Some with more code in particular
2018-05-20T05:11:22Z beach: That would be good.
2018-05-20T05:12:20Z stylewarning: Lisp is a fun thing to talk about
2018-05-20T05:12:26Z beach: It is.
2018-05-20T05:12:27Z stylewarning: But it’s hard to be comprehensible :D
2018-05-20T05:12:37Z beach: That too.
2018-05-20T05:12:47Z on_ion: easier in s-exps
2018-05-20T05:12:51Z beach: But a lot has to do with the enthusiasm of the speaker.
2018-05-20T05:13:01Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: The #clim channel will answer questions about CLIM and McCLIM.  I usually hang out there, but I am traveling at the moment.  I'll be back online on Wednesday.
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2018-05-20T05:14:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: fancy
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2018-05-20T05:17:07Z vtomole: Hey beach, how is SICL coming along?
2018-05-20T05:17:54Z beach: I don't know. :)
2018-05-20T05:17:55Z beach: Bike is doing most of the work at the moment.
2018-05-20T05:18:17Z beach: I also haven't been hanging out in #clasp while traveling.
2018-05-20T05:18:32Z beach: That's where most of the activity takes place.
2018-05-20T05:20:01Z vtomole: With respect to Cleavir?
2018-05-20T05:20:07Z beach: Yeah.
2018-05-20T05:20:39Z beach: Also, scymtym is working on the reader (called Eclector) which used to be part of SICL, but that is now in a separate repository.
2018-05-20T05:21:10Z vtomole: How many readers does SICL have?
2018-05-20T05:21:40Z beach: It will have zero very soon.  Instead it will use Eclector.
2018-05-20T05:22:25Z beach: I am trying to extract "modules" from SICL into separate repositories as much as is reasonable.
2018-05-20T05:23:35Z vtomole: Good idea.
2018-05-20T05:23:51Z beach: Thanks.
2018-05-20T05:26:15Z stylewarning: Then you need to version it all :D
2018-05-20T05:27:11Z beach: What do you mean?
2018-05-20T05:27:38Z stylewarning: Cross-repository compatibility is something that needs to be maintained
2018-05-20T05:27:51Z beach: Oh, sure, yes.
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2018-05-20T05:31:18Z vtomole: As long as it's not split up too much. I think this stays true to SICL's goal of separating a CL implementation into modules. An implementer will clone the sub-components he/she wants.
2018-05-20T05:31:31Z beach: stylewarning: Since the basic specification (i.e. the Common Lisp HyperSpec) is stable, I don't think it will be a big problem.
2018-05-20T05:33:29Z beach: vtomole: It is still non-trivial to use those modules though.  For Eclector, either an implementation uses it as a second reader (it has to have a reader in order to read the Eclector source code) or the implementation must cross compile on a different implementation the way SICl does.
2018-05-20T05:33:39Z stylewarning: beach: I guess if you expose CL-compatible symbols that’s good
2018-05-20T05:37:01Z beach: Right.  But you are right.  Take Eclector again.  It has functionality that extends the Common Lisp HyperSpec, and that functionality is essential for client code, in particular source tracking.  And it is important not to break client code that uses it.
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2018-05-20T05:39:37Z vtomole: beach: To me, Common Lisp implementations are overwhelming. How is the back-end of SICL going? Are you still planning on compiling to x86_64? How much resources (time) does it take to write a "good" optimizing compiler?
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2018-05-20T05:42:52Z beach: vtomole: The back-end is almost done.  I have a separate repository containing an assembler for x86-64.
2018-05-20T05:43:11Z beach: vtomole: So, what's left is bootstrapping.
2018-05-20T05:43:40Z beach: vtomole: Also optimizations both at the HIR and at the MIR level must be improved.
2018-05-20T05:44:25Z beach: vtomole: Hard to say how long it takes.  I am not working on it full time, so it is taking longer.
2018-05-20T05:46:15Z vtomole: For sure, a lot of implementors compile their languages to LLVM because they don't want to deal with writing optimizers. But you are not worried about performance being equal to SBCL are you?
2018-05-20T05:46:33Z beach: Oh, that's definitely the goal.
2018-05-20T05:47:20Z beach: I am not afraid of writing optimizers.  There are plenty of published algorithms.
2018-05-20T05:47:32Z beach: But they have to be adapted to the specific case of Common Lisp.
2018-05-20T05:47:48Z beach: I don't think it is going to work to rely on LLVM for optimizations.
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2018-05-20T05:48:29Z beach: It doesn't know how to do things like type inference, path replication, escape analysis and other things that are crucial to Common Lisp performance.
2018-05-20T05:48:59Z beach: Things like that have to be done before low-level code is generated.
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2018-05-20T05:50:15Z beach: I'm off to have breakfast.  I'll be back in a little while.
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2018-05-20T05:52:38Z vtomole: Sure. Later beach.
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2018-05-20T06:35:12Z vtomole: clhs integer-length
2018-05-20T06:35:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
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2018-05-20T06:41:34Z vtomole: clhs array-dimension
2018-05-20T06:41:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_dim.htm
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2018-05-20T11:55:22Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-20T11:59:52Z oleo: sup sup
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2018-05-20T12:16:50Z makomo: how do i leave a note to someone using Colleen again?
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2018-05-20T12:17:09Z pjb: makomo: /msg minion help
2018-05-20T12:17:22Z pjb: Oh, colleen, another bot I didn't know.
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2018-05-20T12:17:44Z makomo: i wasn't aware of minion :-)
2018-05-20T12:17:54Z makomo: i'll check their help
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2018-05-20T12:18:37Z pjb: Colleen is not particularly helpful…
2018-05-20T12:18:37Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, hello, grant, time, tell, roll,
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2018-05-20T12:19:04Z makomo: yeah :/
2018-05-20T12:19:08Z makomo: was it tell maybe?
2018-05-20T12:19:25Z makomo: ::tell pjb test!
2018-05-20T12:19:25Z Colleen: pjb: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, tell, set, get, time, help, deny, say, mop, test url,
2018-05-20T12:19:59Z makomo: oh, "test!" must be a command, can't be an arbitrary string
2018-05-20T12:20:20Z makomo: ah, here it is, ::notify
2018-05-20T12:20:51Z pjb: You have to prefix all commends with ::tell?  /msg  Colleen ::tell help
2018-05-20T12:21:53Z makomo: no, the syntax is "::<command-name> <args>"
2018-05-20T12:22:33Z makomo: ::tell runs another Colleen command and shows/tells it to someone else
2018-05-20T12:22:33Z Colleen: runs: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, weather, set, say, mop, get, notify, grant, block, award,
2018-05-20T12:22:39Z makomo: err, lol
2018-05-20T12:22:51Z makomo: and ::notify just sends someone a message the first time they speak again
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2018-05-20T12:58:08Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-20T13:15:06Z ebzzry: Is usocket *the* cross platform TCP/IP solution? I want to port a LispWorks library to use it.
2018-05-20T13:18:47Z White_Flame: it's quite high in use: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/03/download-stats-for-february-2018.html
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2018-05-20T13:29:35Z ebzzry: great
2018-05-20T13:29:59Z ebzzry: the next question for myself, is what are the equivalent function from lispworks.
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2018-05-20T13:42:13Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/22F1R3C
2018-05-20T13:42:23Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/1QRCND6
2018-05-20T13:43:52Z White_Flame: ebzzry: looking at usocket's lispworks backend, it looks like they're all in the comm: package https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/lispworks.lisp
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2018-05-20T13:48:01Z oleo: does anyone know the error relating to the last link i provided
2018-05-20T13:48:12Z oleo: the former link is one where i dump an image from sbcl
2018-05-20T13:48:48Z oleo: it all goes ok, the image gets dumped but on start i get library error
2018-05-20T13:49:31Z oleo: the whole asdf mockery is because i have two copies of mcclim
2018-05-20T13:49:49Z oleo: mcclim-master and mcclim-freetype2, and the error is related to freetype2 library
2018-05-20T13:50:15Z oleo: i basically am dumping the image while ignoring the master
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2018-05-20T14:09:44Z ebzzry: thanks
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2018-05-20T14:18:09Z drmeister: Should (find-class '(setf foo) nil) return NIL or signal an error?
2018-05-20T14:18:13Z drmeister: sbcl returns NIL
2018-05-20T14:18:30Z Bike: it's undefined, but an error would be nice
2018-05-20T14:18:32Z drmeister: As does ECL
2018-05-20T14:18:49Z drmeister: An error breaks manifest.
2018-05-20T14:19:13Z drmeister: Clasp signals an error and that breaks manifest
2018-05-20T14:19:27Z Bike: i'd say that's unfortunate on manifest's part
2018-05-20T14:20:39Z drmeister: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/dists/quicklisp/software/manifest-20120208-git/manifest.lisp#L274
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2018-05-20T14:21:03Z drmeister: It doesn't test that **symbol** is a symbol.
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2018-05-20T14:25:16Z phoe: clhs find-class
2018-05-20T14:25:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm
2018-05-20T14:25:39Z phoe: should always return an error
2018-05-20T14:26:02Z phoe: the variable "symbol" is meant to be a symbol and therefore calling FIND-CLASS with a non-symbol invokes undefined behavior
2018-05-20T14:26:08Z phoe: s/return/signal
2018-05-20T14:26:34Z phoe: I mean, the spec says that it may return an unicorn because the behavior is undefined in such a case
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2018-05-20T14:27:37Z phoe: drmeister: also, your link gives me 404
2018-05-20T14:28:12Z drmeister: Of course it does.
2018-05-20T14:28:35Z drmeister: I've never figured out how to get those links to work with quicklisp packages.
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2018-05-20T14:32:32Z phoe: drmeister: https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest/blob/master/manifest.lisp#L274
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2018-05-20T14:34:11Z phoe: drmeister: how come that you end up calling FIND-CLASS with a non-symbol though?
2018-05-20T14:34:40Z Bike: because manifest just iterates over all symbols and all (setf symbol)s, probably./
2018-05-20T14:35:28Z phoe: I see. Then it's manifest's fault for invoking UB in the first place if it calls FIND-CLASS on non-symbols.
2018-05-20T14:37:11Z drmeister: That's what appears to be happening - calling find-class on non-symbols
2018-05-20T14:37:36Z drmeister: Forking and fixing
2018-05-20T14:38:36Z drmeister: https://github.com/clasp-developers/manifest/blob/master/manifest.lisp#L274
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2018-05-20T14:39:35Z phoe: (and (symbolp symbol) ...) should do it if I read this macro correctly
2018-05-20T14:40:05Z phoe: the :IS form seems like a filtering predicate that checks whether a thing falls into a category
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2018-05-20T14:51:57Z drmeister: Yes - and it needs to be added to the :is test for :condition as well
2018-05-20T14:52:16Z phoe: Yep, since condition types are found the same way.
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2018-05-20T14:54:44Z drmeister: Now manifest works with clasp
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2018-05-20T15:03:05Z phoe: drmeister: remember to make a PR to the mainstream repo!
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2018-05-20T15:03:24Z optikalmouse: ,o/
2018-05-20T15:03:29Z optikalmouse: bongiorno
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2018-05-20T15:04:43Z drmeister: Already done
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2018-05-20T15:36:50Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2018-05-20T15:37:34Z pjb: Hi!
2018-05-20T15:41:10Z oleo: sup sup
2018-05-20T15:41:12Z oleo: hey pjb
2018-05-20T15:41:15Z oleo: how are you ?
2018-05-20T15:41:19Z pjb: fine.
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2018-05-20T15:42:41Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/22F1R3C http://dpaste.com/1QRCND6, i did a backtrace for the last one but have still no clue what's wrong
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2018-05-20T15:45:16Z pjb: oleo: typing v on the line 0: in the backtrace should jump to the source line, and you should see where the library value comes from. It's probably the variable that's bad, according to the error message.
2018-05-20T15:46:09Z pjb: oleo: IIRC, typing RET on that line should show the frame with the bindings too.
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2018-05-20T15:47:37Z beach: oleo: Do you have the right values for your OPTIMIZE qualities?
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2018-05-20T15:54:15Z oleo: beach: no idea beach, do you think it's related to that ?
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2018-05-20T15:56:00Z beach: No.
2018-05-20T15:56:15Z beach: I just think you need the right values to debug the problem properly.
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2018-05-20T16:10:47Z oleo: and #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 0))) is not good enough ?
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2018-05-20T16:19:25Z beach: Should be.
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2018-05-20T16:30:57Z oleo: oh
2018-05-20T16:31:09Z oleo: cl-freetype2-tests fails
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2018-05-20T16:31:20Z oleo: some indexes are off
2018-05-20T16:31:43Z oleo: that's maybe why
2018-05-20T16:32:58Z beach: Another FFI-based system, I guess?
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2018-05-20T16:33:45Z oleo: yes
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2018-05-20T16:39:59Z on_ion: well freetype2 is a C lib..
2018-05-20T16:41:42Z oleo: and 5am gives some results like
2018-05-20T16:41:43Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/2GG36NT
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2018-05-20T16:56:31Z oleo: err i have no idea
2018-05-20T16:57:20Z oleo: but if i were to speculate, it either is some loop gone wrong, types not fitting or some conversion stuff in between.....
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2018-05-20T16:57:32Z oleo: that's ffi for me
2018-05-20T16:57:33Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-20T17:10:12Z on_ion: oleo: who ..?
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2018-05-20T17:58:12Z makomo: ::notify Shinmera please take a look at the PR i've made for 3d-matrices. i think MLOOKAT is incorrect, hopefully i got it right (i've been at it for the whole day ;_;)
2018-05-20T17:58:12Z Colleen: makomo: Got it. I'll let Shinmera know as soon as possible.
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2018-05-20T18:12:45Z sjl: makomo: Shinmera generally hangs out in #shirakumo, not here, so if you want to get ahold of him it's best to try there
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2018-05-20T18:14:57Z makomo: sjl: ah right, i forgot about that
2018-05-20T18:14:57Z Colleen: makomo: Shinmera said 13 minutes, 36 seconds ago: Yeah as I mentioned in the reply, I've been at that for fucking ever before as well. If you really got it right now that's fantastic.
2018-05-20T18:15:08Z makomo: hah!
2018-05-20T18:15:50Z oleo: hehe
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2018-05-20T18:20:15Z phoe: are you really chatting via Colleen now despite you guys being in two different channels
2018-05-20T18:20:31Z phoe: I am getting too old for this
2018-05-20T18:20:36Z phoe goes to take a drink in #lispcafe
2018-05-20T18:22:00Z oleo: ::notify phoe what are you drinking ?
2018-05-20T18:22:01Z Colleen: oleo: Got it. I'll let phoe know as soon as possible.
2018-05-20T18:22:12Z makomo: phoe: yeah :D, haha. i thought Colleen wouldn't work cross-channels, but it does
2018-05-20T18:22:24Z makomo: so it's like a VPN of sorts, it groups all the channels Colleen is in
2018-05-20T18:22:27Z makomo: awesome
2018-05-20T18:22:46Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-20T18:23:57Z phoe: it's a bridge
2018-05-20T18:23:57Z Colleen: phoe: oleo said 1 minute, 57 seconds ago: what are you drinking ?
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2018-05-20T19:08:29Z mfiano: Is there a way to reset the reader/printer control variables to the _default_? WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX seems to define it's own standard behavior, going against the defaults. For example, *print-readably* is defined to have an initial value of NIL, whereas WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX uses T
2018-05-20T19:09:25Z phoe: mfiano: what do you mean by "default"?
2018-05-20T19:09:30Z phoe: clhs with-standard-io-syntax
2018-05-20T19:09:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm
2018-05-20T19:09:46Z mfiano: phoe: I mean for things like *print-readably*, the standard defines it's initial-value to be NIL
2018-05-20T19:09:53Z phoe: oooh, right.
2018-05-20T19:09:59Z mfiano: I want to reset all these initial values
2018-05-20T19:10:17Z phoe: hm. sounds like something worthy of a WITH-DEFAULT-IO-SYNTAX macro.
2018-05-20T19:10:39Z phoe: I could bet $2 that it's already defined in some library.
2018-05-20T19:10:43Z mfiano: Well some of them are undefined and up to impls
2018-05-20T19:10:58Z mfiano: But yeah...I want to ensure the ones with actual defaults, are reset
2018-05-20T19:11:55Z phoe: serapeum seems not to have it.
2018-05-20T19:12:16Z phoe: You could try defining your own macro for that - I can't see it around from a very brief glance.
2018-05-20T19:12:33Z phoe: And perhaps later you can switch to a more "mainstream" version of this.
2018-05-20T19:14:03Z mfiano: Ok. I just spent a while debugging why i could not print CLOS objects, and *print-readably* was bound to T everywhere in a huge project. Turns out, I wrapped another library that calls this one in `with-standard-io-syntax`, in order to ensure things like floats being read correctly...i didn't realize *print-readably* is different than the defaults. I understand why it is though; it's really meant to make
2018-05-20T19:14:05Z mfiano: printing objects to file and reading them again work properly.
2018-05-20T19:14:32Z mfiano: Thanks though
2018-05-20T19:15:03Z phoe: mfiano: what kind of CLOS objects are you printing and how are you printing them?
2018-05-20T19:15:41Z phoe: plain #<FOO 01234>-style?
2018-05-20T19:15:52Z mfiano: Correct.
2018-05-20T19:16:04Z mfiano: I know how I can print them readably, and that phoe-toolboxz has a way
2018-05-20T19:16:09Z mfiano: But I'm speaking generally
2018-05-20T19:16:29Z phoe: for very dumb objects phoe-toolbox's way of printing them will work, yes
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2018-05-20T19:22:33Z mfiano: It seems the only one that differs from the defaults, aside possibly some implementation-specific ones, _is_ *print-readably*
2018-05-20T19:23:10Z mfiano: Well you learn something new everyday I suppose.
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2018-05-20T22:13:24Z jmercouris: is there a way to do (loop for item in list collect ...) and have the index of "item"?
2018-05-20T22:14:29Z phoe: jmercouris: (loop for i from 0 for item in list ...)
2018-05-20T22:15:39Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks
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2018-05-20T22:16:02Z jmercouris: I was thinking about having multiple "do" clauses to increment some integer
2018-05-20T22:16:08Z jmercouris: seems I was on the completely wrong track of thinking
2018-05-20T22:16:40Z phoe: jmercouris: you don't want an index of "item"
2018-05-20T22:16:51Z phoe: you want a number that is initially 0 and then increases by 1 on each iteration
2018-05-20T22:17:03Z jmercouris: I realize that's what your soultion is doing yes
2018-05-20T22:17:04Z phoe: that also happens to be the index of "item"
2018-05-20T22:17:32Z jmercouris: I visualized (loop for item in list do .... do incf i)
2018-05-20T22:18:07Z jmercouris: I still barely understand the loop macro
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2018-05-20T22:21:32Z comborico1611: Where has stacksmith gone?
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2018-05-20T22:28:28Z pjb: phoe: no, that's the point, there is no "the" index of item!  There are several indices of item!
2018-05-20T22:28:57Z pjb: (loop with list = '(1 2 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4) for item in list collect (positions item list)) #| --> ((0 2 6) (1 3 7) (0 2 6) (1 3 7) (4 8) (5 9) (0 2 6) (1 3 7) (4 8) (5 9)) |#
2018-05-20T22:30:13Z pjb: jmercouris: you can do (loop with i = -1 for item in list do (incf i) do …)
2018-05-20T22:30:22Z pjb: but this is exactly what for i from 0 does.
2018-05-20T22:30:42Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah, that's what I had in mind, it just didn't seem that smart
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2018-05-20T22:30:49Z jmercouris: I figured there must be a better way
2018-05-20T22:31:07Z pjb: the most probable, is that it wouldn't make any difference in the generated code.
2018-05-20T22:31:17Z jmercouris: yeah, but it would look dumb
2018-05-20T22:31:23Z jmercouris: and that's enough for me :d
2018-05-20T22:31:35Z jmercouris: s/:d/:D - sorry sticky shift key
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2018-05-21T02:34:20Z vtomole: stylewarning: Hey, you online?
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2018-05-21T02:42:33Z stylewarning: vtomole: a bit!
2018-05-21T02:42:42Z stylewarning: Finishing a nice Italian meal
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2018-05-21T02:44:57Z vtomole: Good :). I really enjoyed the paper, will have to study the code a bit longer though specifically %apply-nQ-gate
2018-05-21T02:45:05Z stylewarning: Awesome!
2018-05-21T02:45:17Z stylewarning: That’s the hardest part.
2018-05-21T02:46:19Z vtomole: From the paper "Since qubits live in a two-dimensional space " should it be "Since a qubit lives in a two-dimensional space"?
2018-05-21T02:47:03Z vtomole: Actually, that sentence is fine. It says the same thing i think..
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2018-05-21T02:52:14Z vtomole: What is the performance comparison of implementing linear alg operations instead of handing them over to BLAS?
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2018-05-21T02:59:05Z stylewarning: Thanks! :)
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2018-05-21T02:59:37Z stylewarning: vtomole: it depends on a lot of factors
2018-05-21T03:02:04Z vtomole: BLAS is generally preferred in production. Right?
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2018-05-21T03:47:03Z vtomole: stylewarning: Looking for feedback on the new pull request: https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/quantum-interpreter/pull/1/commits
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2018-05-21T05:20:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-21T07:31:58Z ebzzry: What is a good MP library?
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2018-05-21T08:03:05Z beach: minion: What does MP stand for?
2018-05-21T08:03:05Z minion: Megatheroid Parceling
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2018-05-21T08:11:18Z edgar-rft: Mount Prospect LIbrary <https://mppl.org/>
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2018-05-21T09:50:44Z makomo: say i have a CASE form and i want to run a bit of code before/after the CASE form, depending on whether any of the cases within the CASE was actually hit
2018-05-21T09:51:06Z makomo: s/was/were
2018-05-21T09:51:31Z makomo: i could do it by adding WHENs before/after the case and then checking for all of the symbols within the case, but this duplicates all of those symbols
2018-05-21T09:51:42Z makomo: so i made a macro that does it. how would you name this macro?
2018-05-21T09:52:06Z makomo: i named it `wrap-case` but i'm wondering if someone can come up with a better name
2018-05-21T09:53:33Z ludston: Alternatively, you could yield a non-null value from all of your cases and wrap it in an if or when expression
2018-05-21T09:53:50Z ludston: Non-nil, pardon.
2018-05-21T09:53:56Z makomo: ludston: that would only work for after-forms though, right?
2018-05-21T09:54:35Z ludston: Oh, I see what you mean
2018-05-21T09:54:38Z makomo: plus, it requires me to save that value then somewhere, which means the whole CASE needs to be wrapped within a LET, producing "ugly" indentation
2018-05-21T09:54:52Z makomo: if i opt for (setf) instead of returning, then i'm again duplicating code within the clauses
2018-05-21T09:56:12Z ludston: In that case, whether or not this is a better way to do this, I would have the case return a lambda and then wrap the clauses around that
2018-05-21T09:56:26Z makomo: another style/philosophy issue: where do you draw the line between "i'll just write a macro for it and introduce my own control structure" and "i should probably just let this bit of duplication be, it's not worth the reader's effort to decipher what i meant"
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2018-05-21T09:56:45Z shrdlu68: In effect, you have 3 different CASEs.
2018-05-21T09:57:01Z makomo: yep, that's how i expanded it :-)
2018-05-21T09:57:03Z ludston: I'd probably call it, "case-with" or "case-using"
2018-05-21T09:57:47Z makomo: ludston: hmm how would the CASE return a lambda? i didn't get what you mean
2018-05-21T09:57:50Z shrdlu68: makomo: That just sounds wrong.
2018-05-21T09:58:02Z makomo: shrdlu68: why?
2018-05-21T09:58:20Z makomo: you want to run some common code, then special code for every clause, then again common code
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2018-05-21T09:58:27Z shrdlu68: It's too verbose, seems like a simpler and more elegant solution is possible.
2018-05-21T09:58:46Z makomo: well, i did use a WHEN at first, but since there could be multiple symbols
2018-05-21T09:58:53Z shrdlu68: Why not do the check once?
2018-05-21T09:59:17Z makomo: i also thought about that, and that's an upcoming optimization, but isn't *that* important
2018-05-21T09:59:39Z shrdlu68 squirms uncomfortably
2018-05-21T09:59:47Z makomo: haha :D
2018-05-21T09:59:48Z ludston: (let ((c (case "jobbo" ("jobbo" (lambda () (something)))))) (when c (setup) (funcall c) (cleanup)))
2018-05-21T09:59:59Z makomo: it's tricky because either one or both of the before/afters could be missing
2018-05-21T10:00:21Z makomo: so for example, you can't rely on the check being saved in the after body, if the before body never existed
2018-05-21T10:00:38Z makomo: in the after body, you can't rely on ...*
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2018-05-21T10:01:23Z makomo: in the after body, you can't rely on the check being saved/done already, if the tbefore body never existed**
2018-05-21T10:02:10Z makomo: ludston: oh hmm, that might be a good idea for a better (?) macroexpansion
2018-05-21T10:02:26Z makomo: inject (setup) and (cleanup) into the body of all of the clauses
2018-05-21T10:02:48Z makomo: that also gets rid of the lookup issue
2018-05-21T10:04:19Z ludston: makomo: I've found that if you have conditional behaviour, it's often better to delay executing that behaviour by passing it around in higher order functions, since then it is trivial to add logging later
2018-05-21T10:05:05Z makomo: mhm
2018-05-21T10:05:40Z ludston: makomo: Often, conditional behaviour is going to be triggered by some user-input, and the user will input data outside of the range that you predicted, so you will want to anticipate this
2018-05-21T10:06:40Z ludston: makomo: And by that I mean, anticipate that you will screw up your code, not "try and make sure that all of the inputs are santized"
2018-05-21T10:10:23Z makomo: i think i see what you mean. so you're referring to the process of actually writing the code, not the runtime behavior of the program
2018-05-21T10:10:38Z shrdlu68: (let ((which-case (case...)))...
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2018-05-21T10:12:11Z puchacz: by the way, is there "case" with different test instead of default "eql"? or I would have to write a macro (or use one of the libraries)?
2018-05-21T10:12:22Z loke: puchacz: Yes.
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2018-05-21T10:12:56Z puchacz: loke: yes to what part?
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2018-05-21T10:13:47Z makomo: probably the latter
2018-05-21T10:13:55Z siraben`: Just bought Practical Common Lisp :)
2018-05-21T10:13:55Z loke: puchacz: To your question. You asked if there is such a macro, or if you have to write it yourself. The answer to that question is “yes”.
2018-05-21T10:14:04Z makomo: i wrote my own string-case also, which uses STRING-EQUAL
2018-05-21T10:14:10Z puchacz: ok
2018-05-21T10:14:16Z loke: (OR it-exists need-to-write-it) ⇒ T
2018-05-21T10:14:25Z siraben`: What should I be wary about when following PCL?
2018-05-21T10:14:43Z ludston: loke: classic
2018-05-21T10:14:46Z loke: siraben`: The fact that it's old, so it doesn't mention Quicklisp.
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2018-05-21T10:15:16Z siraben`: loke: I see.
2018-05-21T10:15:20Z loke: siraben`: Also, I believe it mentions lispbox or some other similar package which are no longer devloped. You should be looking at Portacle.
2018-05-21T10:15:23Z makomo: siraben`: skip the part about "lispbox" in the beginning and use something like Portacle instead
2018-05-21T10:15:28Z makomo: yup :-)
2018-05-21T10:15:38Z siraben`: Fortunately I know how to use Emacs, so I'll find a way to customize my current configuration to work better with CL
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2018-05-21T10:15:48Z makomo: then you're good to go
2018-05-21T10:15:51Z siraben`: Yay :)
2018-05-21T10:16:13Z loke: makomo: There is a STRING-CASE in Quicklisp which is likely much faster than what you'll be able to write.
2018-05-21T10:16:39Z loke: siraben`: There are two packages you need to learn: SLIME and Paredit.
2018-05-21T10:16:40Z makomo: loke: probably, i had no idea though. i expanded it into a COND which uses STRING-EQUAL lol
2018-05-21T10:16:45Z makomo: Smartparens!
2018-05-21T10:17:07Z makomo: loke: what kind of optimization could it do. hash the strings and compare the hashes perhaps?
2018-05-21T10:17:16Z loke: makomo: smartparens was less efficient last i looked. That said, it also seemed to be easier to learn, so perhaps it's a good idea for beginners.
2018-05-21T10:17:23Z makomo: i.e. hash them at compile-time and then just use a CASE with the hashes
2018-05-21T10:17:38Z ludston: Does anyone else use evil mode just for "da("?
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2018-05-21T10:18:31Z makomo: ludston: i just learned something :D. i use spacemacs's lisp-state for my sexp operations though
2018-05-21T10:18:50Z makomo: the keybinds aren't the shortest, `SPC k <something>` and then just `k <something>` once you're in the state
2018-05-21T10:18:58Z loke: makomo: it finds common prefixes and constructs a tree based on that. Then it compares multiple characters by OR-ing the differences and comparing to zero. It has hand-optimised assembly for SBCL so that it only does a comditional jump every four characters (if I remember correctly)
2018-05-21T10:19:01Z makomo: but i have to customize that
2018-05-21T10:19:15Z makomo: loke: oh dear
2018-05-21T10:19:20Z loke: makomo: There is a paper weitten on the algorithm ph Pkuhong.
2018-05-21T10:19:35Z makomo: ah, i think i know who that is
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2018-05-21T10:20:05Z makomo: loke: all of the strings must be known ta compile-time right?
2018-05-21T10:20:12Z loke: makomo: Yes.
2018-05-21T10:20:18Z loke: Obviously :-)
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2018-05-21T10:20:40Z makomo: :-)
2018-05-21T10:22:04Z makomo: loke: wow, lispy assembly, awesome
2018-05-21T10:22:16Z loke: teh code contains this comment, showing the output: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/beddab3cdfbc72ebcad9df72939efd80
2018-05-21T10:22:20Z siraben`: loke: Yes, I use Paredit all the time with Scheme
2018-05-21T10:22:38Z siraben`: Also use rainbow-delimiters, aggressive indent
2018-05-21T10:24:32Z makomo: loke: this is very cool, i'll have to study it
2018-05-21T10:24:44Z ludston: http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp
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2018-05-21T10:26:15Z loke: makomo: Please do, because last I looked at it, changes in recent SBCL has reduced the performace of it. It's still faster than your typical macro, but the hand-optimised version of NUMERIC-CHAR= doesn't seem to be applied correctly, causing more conditional jumps than it used it.
2018-05-21T10:26:24Z loke: “than it used to”
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2018-05-21T10:26:44Z makomo: ah
2018-05-21T10:26:51Z ludston: That's pretty neat. I wonder if it could be generalised to deal with other lists, or even trees.
2018-05-21T10:27:03Z loke: I think it's because some of the internals that he was using have changed. If you can fix that, you'll be a hero :-)
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2018-05-21T10:29:33Z loke: I think this STRING-CASE is a very good example of where Lisp shines.
2018-05-21T10:31:23Z ludston: It's a bit complex. I wonder how close the output is to something like (case (aref input 0) (#\f (when (eq (aref input 1) #o) (case (aref input 2) (insert rest of tree here)))))
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2018-05-21T10:34:29Z makomo: loke: i doubt it, but one can dream :-)
2018-05-21T10:34:38Z makomo: loke: yeah, this is an excellent example IMO
2018-05-21T10:34:48Z makomo: beautiful
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2018-05-21T10:36:52Z ludston: Oh you can see the macro output just aboe  the assembler output. I can answer my own question. Yes it is pretty much identical to that, but for some reason he's gone with numeric-char= instead of doing a lookup
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2018-05-21T10:41:36Z ludston: Because he thinks that doing 6 separate char= comparisons is going to be faster than #'equal?
2018-05-21T10:43:42Z ludston: I don't understand lol. Why be like, "I know how to compare strings faster than the people writing the compiler"?
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2018-05-21T10:49:17Z jmercouris: I'm trying to understand how to use the default database configuration in Caveman2: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman#database
2018-05-21T10:49:38Z jmercouris: I've edited my config.lisp file to have a database: https://gist.github.com/bd40654c9256e2556554a37a8ee7a98a
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2018-05-21T10:50:12Z jmercouris: the thing I don't understand is this sentence: "db in a package myapp.db is a function for connecting to each databases configured the above."
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2018-05-21T10:50:25Z jmercouris: and then it shows the following snippet below: "(use-package '(:myapp.db :sxql :datafly))"
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2018-05-21T10:50:40Z jmercouris: but, if I look in my skeleton project, I find no function named "db"
2018-05-21T10:51:08Z jmercouris: I just answered my own question, nvm everyone
2018-05-21T10:51:53Z jmercouris: seems the function does exist, just wasn't being picked up by company, had to look for it in the source
2018-05-21T10:51:57Z jmercouris: lesson learned- don't trust company
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2018-05-21T11:05:51Z jmercouris: so, I have an environment variable that I would like to set for uiop:getenv
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2018-05-21T11:05:58Z jmercouris: I am launching my program via slime
2018-05-21T11:06:08Z jmercouris: how can I set this environment variable in this case?
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2018-05-21T11:21:29Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: "Launching it via slime"?
2018-05-21T11:21:52Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: Well, I'm in a slime repl, and then calling the function to launch my application
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2018-05-21T11:23:28Z shrdlu68: As far as I know, the application shares the same env as slime.
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2018-05-21T11:24:21Z jmercouris: when I say env, I mean environment variables, like `set --export some-var some-value` in a normal shell
2018-05-21T11:24:32Z jmercouris: which is what uiop:getenv is doing
2018-05-21T11:24:34Z shrdlu68: Me too.
2018-05-21T11:24:44Z jmercouris: the problem with this is that I am within emacs
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2018-05-21T11:24:55Z jmercouris: so I can't just set some environment variable in my .bashrc .profile or whatever
2018-05-21T11:25:06Z jmercouris: I am launching a standalone GUI emacs
2018-05-21T11:25:22Z jmercouris: that would be fine if I had launched emacs -nw in a terminal
2018-05-21T11:25:36Z shrdlu68: I don't think you share the same env as emacs, since your implementation is exec'd.
2018-05-21T11:26:02Z jmercouris: what do you mean by that?
2018-05-21T11:26:14Z shrdlu68: One way would be to launch your implementation with the variables, like "FOO=BAR /usr/bin/sbcl"
2018-05-21T11:26:30Z jmercouris: I would like to start my application within slime though
2018-05-21T11:26:36Z jmercouris: within my already running repl
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2018-05-21T11:27:01Z jmercouris: I could hard-code/override the environment lookup, but that doesn't seem right
2018-05-21T11:27:27Z shrdlu68: I don't think it's possible to "inject" environmental variables, except by manipulating the data structure that holds the environmental variables.
2018-05-21T11:27:53Z shrdlu68: Which is implementation-specific.
2018-05-21T11:28:06Z jmercouris: it's not about injecting environmental varialbes
2018-05-21T11:28:10Z jmercouris: s/varialbes/variables
2018-05-21T11:28:23Z jmercouris: it's about setting them within a context
2018-05-21T11:28:34Z jmercouris: at any rate, it seems impossible
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2018-05-21T11:32:33Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I'm curious - why use environmental variables?
2018-05-21T11:32:37Z jmercouris: It's not my choice
2018-05-21T11:32:42Z jmercouris: it is part of envy, which is part of caveman
2018-05-21T11:33:02Z jmercouris: I would have used a plist file or something
2018-05-21T11:33:19Z jmercouris: see here: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman#configuration
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2018-05-21T11:34:31Z jmercouris: interesting, seems there is a way to set it manually, looking at it again
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2018-05-21T11:35:38Z jmercouris: he uses osciat within the repl
2018-05-21T11:35:42Z jmercouris: never thought about that
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2018-05-21T12:23:10Z dim: Xach: hi! do you know off-hand how to implement streaming uploads with zs3? by that I mean that you only ever have a small part of the content to upload in the client's memory...
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2018-05-21T12:38:47Z Xach: dim: Hmm, I don't know, sorry. I'd have to look at what drakma provides and how zs3 uses it.
2018-05-21T12:39:11Z Xach: dim: i know there are chunking upload APIs that could be used regardless of what drakma provides, but i also know that is not in ZS3 right now.
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2018-05-21T12:43:45Z dim: yeah I was thinking about https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/dev/mpuoverview.html “Multipart Upload Overview” specifically
2018-05-21T12:44:34Z dim: I don't think I can use drakma level facilities here, the whole point is that I don't know the size of the content I am uploading until the end, because I am already receiving the content in a streaming fashion
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2018-05-21T12:45:36Z dim: I could always use my already existing batch facility and create multiple S3 files, one per batch, and manually consider them as a multiple upload thing, though
2018-05-21T12:46:04Z Xach: dim: Interesting. I haven't thought about how S3 supports incoming objects of unknown size.
2018-05-21T12:46:48Z Xach: I don't think drakma would inherently have a problem with it, but I haven't checked.
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2018-05-21T12:47:25Z dim: apparently you can upload up to 10_000 chunks of 5MB content, and the last chunk “closes” the multi-part upload, and it can even be done in parallel
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2018-05-21T12:49:25Z dim: my use case is (of course) pgloader related: a customer needs support for AWS Redshift as a target; and I just discovered that Redshift (a fork of PostgreSQL 8.0) doesn't have the COPY FROM STDIN feature, instead you need to COPY FROM S3://, basically
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2018-05-21T12:50:00Z dim: so I'm going to do MySQL | S3 | Redshift, all in streaming, and without having to load the full contents of a MySQL table in pgloader memory if I can avoid it, of course
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2018-05-21T12:50:24Z Xach: dang!
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2018-05-21T12:52:51Z dim: well it's a SMOP as they say, and if using the S3 multipart upload protocol isn't possible with current zs3, I think it's going to be easier for me to do something that looks like it with plenty of "small" objects that are manually managed in pgloader, I don't actually need any other tool to see that as a single file per source table anyway, and also I will be able to have more concurrent processing
2018-05-21T12:53:01Z dim: thanks for your answer, I think I know what code to write now ;-)
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2018-05-21T13:37:22Z shka: hello
2018-05-21T13:37:29Z shka: i need opinion
2018-05-21T13:37:56Z shka: how would you react for (defun bhattacharyya (a b) ...)
2018-05-21T13:38:14Z pjb: I'd reach for my sanskit dictionary ?
2018-05-21T13:38:35Z shka: well, that is distance
2018-05-21T13:38:48Z shka: used to compare distributions
2018-05-21T13:38:51Z pjb: distance functions are good.
2018-05-21T13:38:56Z shka: and that's how it is called
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2018-05-21T13:39:13Z shka: but i don't know if i should put full name in code
2018-05-21T13:39:23Z shka: becaues it is slightly long
2018-05-21T13:39:24Z pjb: Yes, full name is better.
2018-05-21T13:39:40Z shrdlu68: pjb: Sanskrit?
2018-05-21T13:39:42Z shka: oh, so you are fine with it?
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2018-05-21T13:39:57Z shka: shrdlu68: guy was from India
2018-05-21T13:39:59Z pjb: Full name is better than abbreviation, because full names can be found in dictionaries.
2018-05-21T13:40:34Z shrdlu68: Oh yeah, it's sanskrit, not sanskit.
2018-05-21T13:40:41Z pjb: just google for dist and for distance and see what I mean.
2018-05-21T13:40:42Z shka: yes, that's why i prefer full names as well
2018-05-21T13:40:55Z pjb: Yes, I meant +r
2018-05-21T13:41:21Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe it should be called bhattacharyya-statistical-distance?
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2018-05-21T13:41:32Z shka: pjb: thanks, i think i will stick to full name
2018-05-21T13:41:32Z MichaelRaskin: (question mark not part of the name)
2018-05-21T13:41:50Z shka: MichaelRaskin: bhattacharyya-distance is enough
2018-05-21T13:42:03Z pjb: google for bhattacharyya and you find it directly. Google for bhat, bhat-dist, anything and you're lost.
2018-05-21T13:42:26Z pjb: shka: so indeed, you could even name it bhattacharyya-distance since bhattacharyya is a proper name actually.
2018-05-21T13:43:02Z shka: cool
2018-05-21T13:43:02Z shrdlu68: As long as we stick to "Hamming distance" and "Levenshtein distance"...
2018-05-21T13:43:08Z pjb: exactly.
2018-05-21T13:43:20Z shka: well, I am fun with that
2018-05-21T13:43:32Z shka: *fine
2018-05-21T13:43:44Z shka: it is just bhattacharyya is rather complex string
2018-05-21T13:44:06Z shka: but if you are using slime, it matters not
2018-05-21T13:44:07Z MichaelRaskin: shrdlu68: those who try to cut distance out of Hamming distance will be punished by coding FFT with Hamming window
2018-05-21T13:44:09Z pjb: Not for everybody.  Latin-derived language speaker will find it easy to type.
2018-05-21T13:44:20Z pjb: The syllabic structure is simple.
2018-05-21T13:44:42Z shka: i guess...
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2018-05-21T13:45:00Z shka: anyway, thanks, we think pretty much alike
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2018-05-21T13:46:30Z pjb: Modern editors and IDEs have a lookup function that will search in dictionaries, wikipedia, google the current selection (or symbol-at-point).
2018-05-21T13:48:14Z MichaelRaskin: Without even requiring any user interaction to start the search!
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2018-05-21T15:07:30Z makomo: do you guys think there will ever be an effort to create a new/revised CL standard? how realistic is that?
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2018-05-21T15:08:00Z shka: makomo: there will be no new official standard
2018-05-21T15:08:20Z Bike: there are several efforts. it's pretty unlikely they'll be at the level of an ANSI standard, though.
2018-05-21T15:08:23Z makomo: how can you know for certain?
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2018-05-21T15:08:37Z shka: makomo: not enough money
2018-05-21T15:08:46Z makomo: Bike: oh, i didn't know. like?
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2018-05-21T15:10:13Z beach: makomo: Like WSCL.
2018-05-21T15:10:57Z makomo: beach: oh, i hadn't thought/forgot that WSCL fits that purpose. so WSCL is definitely not "just another Lisp implementation"?
2018-05-21T15:11:17Z beach: makomo: You are thinking of SICL.  That's just another implementation.
2018-05-21T15:11:36Z makomo: hm, you're right, i've confused the two
2018-05-21T15:11:50Z sjl__ is now known as sjl
2018-05-21T15:13:09Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
2018-05-21T15:13:17Z makomo: mhm, taking a look already :-)
2018-05-21T15:13:27Z makomo: beach: what are the most important things that will be added to WSCL?
2018-05-21T15:13:39Z makomo: or are planned to be added
2018-05-21T15:13:51Z beach: No functionality will be added, or very very little.
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2018-05-21T15:14:10Z shka: makomo: it is a cleanup project
2018-05-21T15:14:20Z beach: Maybe package-local nicknames.
2018-05-21T15:14:59Z dim: things like bordeaux-threads and sockets maybe?
2018-05-21T15:15:07Z makomo: oh i see, and stuff like threads and sockets?
2018-05-21T15:15:10Z makomo: what dim  said
2018-05-21T15:15:12Z makomo: that's out of scope?
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2018-05-21T15:16:30Z dim: maybe even a run-program facility as in uiop, and something to access the environment variables... basically I was pretty happy about what https://libcork.io provides for C, and including that scope into a CL “standard” of sorts strikes me as a good idea…
2018-05-21T15:16:34Z sjl: Would a new CL that included all the commonly-used things (bt, usocket, gray streams, etc) be a Common Common Lisp?
2018-05-21T15:16:54Z dim: (of course half of libcork, or maybe more, are already part of CL)
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2018-05-21T15:17:39Z dim: sjl: Third Millenium Common Lisp? (there's already a 21st century attempt after all)
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2018-05-21T15:19:32Z sjl: Common² Lisp, asciified as C2L similar to I²C->I2C
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2018-05-21T15:20:27Z makomo: are there any other efforts besides WSCL?
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2018-05-21T15:21:14Z dim: sjl: then we would have C2L and CLTL2...
2018-05-21T15:21:27Z dim: maybe WSCL is just the right name ;-)
2018-05-21T15:21:45Z sjl: dim: and clearly we'd need a C2LTL (and possibly a C2LTL2!)
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2018-05-21T15:26:32Z MichaelRaskin: CTLTL2TL
2018-05-21T15:26:38Z MichaelRaskin: Oops
2018-05-21T15:26:42Z MichaelRaskin: CLTL2TL
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2018-05-21T15:44:05Z sjl: is it possible that every combination of c/2/t/l is meaningful, much like the c(ad)+r family?
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2018-05-21T16:15:52Z Xach: it is not possible.
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2018-05-21T16:24:11Z defunkydrummer: sjr: in truth today we are at ctlt3 level: most implementations implement cltl2 and a lot of extras that are almost portable thanks to portability libs. I don't think the state of the language is a problem at all.
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2018-05-21T16:37:09Z defunkydrummer: sjl: sorry, i wrote "sjr"
2018-05-21T16:37:35Z sjl: ah, I do ping on slj, but sjr is a typo I haven't added to my ping list :)
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2018-05-21T16:49:45Z phoe: there's a de facto standard that all modern implementations comply to; it's implemented by c2mop, usocket, bordeaux-threads, lparallel, trivial-gray-streams, trivial-garbage, ASDF, UIOP et cetera
2018-05-21T16:53:44Z katco[m]: i'd like a solid standardized way of doing continuations
2018-05-21T16:54:54Z oleo: inhale, exhale, inhale.....
2018-05-21T16:55:10Z oleo: lol
2018-05-21T16:55:38Z katco[m]: uh oh... people have strong opinions about this?
2018-05-21T16:56:22Z vtomole: How would  that work? Is it "If your implementation implements the standard, you can pretty much add anything else you want to it"?
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2018-05-21T16:59:54Z Bike: that's how the standard already works
2018-05-21T17:00:11Z Bike: as long as the extensions follow certain limits, like not putting extra symbols in the CL package
2018-05-21T17:04:11Z warweasle: Luckily, the CL spec uses every possible combination of letters and numbers.
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2018-05-21T17:12:03Z aeth: Well, it's finite, isn't it? A symbol is produced from a string so the maximum length is probably array-total-size-limit. In SBCL, that's 4611686018427387901, which is probably the maximum possible in 64-bit systems
2018-05-21T17:13:17Z aeth: Or close to it. most-positve-fixnum is 4611686018427387903 in SBCL and SBCL uses (signed-byte 63)
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2018-05-21T17:14:52Z aeth: If you wanted to define all of them, though, the real problem is char-code-limit, which is a lot less straightforward.
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2018-05-21T17:17:49Z warweasle: aeth: I actually like the kitchen sink approach. I usually have to include a ton of libraries to get anything done in other langauges. With lisp, it's just there.
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2018-05-21T17:32:22Z katco: me too
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2018-05-21T18:11:56Z phoe: warweasle: kinda disagreeing with you on that point
2018-05-21T18:12:13Z phoe: pulling a system on Quicklisp tends to also pull multiple tens of its dependencies
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2018-05-21T18:44:36Z comborico1611: What is predicate function like SYMBOLP but returns false for "symbolp ()"
2018-05-21T18:45:04Z oleo: ??
2018-05-21T18:45:20Z oleo: nil is both a list and an atom
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2018-05-21T18:45:59Z Bike: there is no such function built in. nil is a symbol.
2018-05-21T18:46:16Z comborico1611: Bike: I see.  Thank you.
2018-05-21T18:46:21Z oleo: yah
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2018-05-21T18:50:39Z phoe: comborico1611: (and thing (symbolp thing))
2018-05-21T18:50:56Z phoe: or more verbosely (and (symbolp thing) (not (null thing)))
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2018-05-21T18:52:39Z comborico1611: phoe: I was just trying to figure this out.  Thanks!  I needed the verbose to understand.
2018-05-21T18:53:37Z phoe: you want something that is a symbol AND that is not null
2018-05-21T18:55:11Z comborico1611: Ahh, yes.  Very good.
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2018-05-21T18:56:41Z aeth: Depending on what you're doing you could also use types. e.g. (let ((x 'foo)) (check-type x (and symbol (not null))) x)
2018-05-21T18:57:24Z aeth: That would be if you wanted a correctable-at-runtime error if it's not a non-nil symbol
2018-05-21T18:57:41Z comborico1611: aeth: Seems too advanced for me, or my brain is tired.
2018-05-21T18:57:51Z comborico1611: phoe: This is what I'm up to https://hastebin.com/timocogele.pl
2018-05-21T18:58:04Z on_ion: pl..
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2018-05-21T18:58:44Z aeth: then you don't want an error!
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2018-05-21T19:01:40Z stylewarning: phoe: (conjoin #'symbolp (complement #'null))
2018-05-21T19:01:41Z stylewarning: :D
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2018-05-21T19:02:43Z Bike: (typecase list (null 0) (symbol 1) (t ...)) is how id write that
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2018-05-21T19:03:02Z Bike: with cond you just need to check null before you check symbolp
2018-05-21T19:03:26Z comborico1611: Ohh, right
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2018-05-21T19:03:42Z comborico1611: I don't know TYPECASE yet.
2018-05-21T19:03:57Z vtomole_: clhs symbol
2018-05-21T19:03:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm
2018-05-21T19:04:12Z pjb: (etypecase list (null 0) (cons 1))
2018-05-21T19:04:23Z pjb: if it must be a proper-list.
2018-05-21T19:04:26Z aeth: stylewarning: (multiple-value-bind (value value-present-p) (gethash symbol hash-table-of-all-possible-symbols-except-nil) (declare (ignore value)) value-present-p)
2018-05-21T19:05:41Z phoe: stylewarning: (conjoin #'symbolp #'identity)
2018-05-21T19:06:02Z comborico1611: Thanks, guys.
2018-05-21T19:06:02Z phoe: comborico1611: geeez why the dollar sign
2018-05-21T19:06:06Z comborico1611: Hahah
2018-05-21T19:06:06Z stylewarning: (let ((tbl (make-hash-table))) (do-all-symbols (x tbl) (when x (setf (gethash x tbl) t))))
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2018-05-21T19:06:44Z comborico1611: phoe: Too much Perl lately.
2018-05-21T19:07:27Z comborico1611: Actually, I'm experimenting with sigils inside of Lisp.
2018-05-21T19:07:59Z phoe: comborico1611: please don't
2018-05-21T19:08:09Z phoe: or rather, sure thing you can, just don't tell other lispers to view your code
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2018-05-21T19:09:16Z comborico1611: Yeah, I know.
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2018-05-21T19:10:12Z aeth: stylewarning: now we just need a way to not have to regenerate the hash table each time the function is called (what if someone adds a symbol?)
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2018-05-21T19:32:50Z phoe: wait a second
2018-05-21T19:32:53Z phoe: comborico1611: what are you trying to do?
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2018-05-21T19:34:32Z potatonomicon: is there a way to make sbcl yell at me if it can't do tail recursion optimization? or does it do this by default and I just haven't seen it?
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2018-05-21T19:36:21Z aeth: If it's just SBCL you could parse disassemble (keep in mind that the case of its output depends on the value of *print-case*)
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2018-05-21T19:37:35Z potatonomicon: don't really want to manually check the asm, since I will have a lot of functions that need this
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2018-05-21T19:37:45Z cgay: You could test your function with something that would cause extremely deep recursion. :)
2018-05-21T19:38:10Z Bike: potatonomicon: if you pump up SPEED optimization it might print notes
2018-05-21T19:38:15Z Bike: or maybe space
2018-05-21T19:38:55Z potatonomicon: alternatively, can I set the stack size larger?
2018-05-21T19:39:10Z aeth: potatonomicon: well if it's tail on itself you'd just have to look for something like this: ; 9A:       B8B84C5120       MOV EAX, #x20514CB8              ; #<FDEFN FOO>
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2018-05-21T19:39:45Z aeth: That's present in this unless I (declare (optimize (speed 3))) in the function: (defun foo (x) (unless (<= x 0) (foo (1- x))))
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2018-05-21T19:40:43Z aeth: so you'd just look for a line with FOO or foo
2018-05-21T19:40:53Z aeth: (it will be foo if *print-case* is :downcase)
2018-05-21T19:40:55Z potatonomicon: alright
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2018-05-21T19:45:01Z vtomole_: clhs defparameter
2018-05-21T19:45:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2018-05-21T19:45:45Z phoe: potatonomicon: note that the CL standard does not promise you that your code will be tail-optimized. An implementation may decide not to do TCO for any reason, such as (declaim (optimize (debug 3))).
2018-05-21T19:45:53Z phoe: And that is surprisingly common on developer machines.
2018-05-21T19:46:04Z potatonomicon: thats why I asked specifically for sbcl
2018-05-21T19:46:55Z phoe: Okiedokie. Just keep in mind that your code might blow stacks if you ever use tail calls in CL in places that might be called thousands+ of times.
2018-05-21T19:47:30Z eschulte_: Does anyone know of a way to read a lisp source file to a mix of S-exprs and say strings which would include enough information to rebuild the original source (including whitespace and comments)?
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2018-05-21T19:48:47Z potatonomicon: yeah I will probably just redesign things a bit to not use it that much
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2018-05-21T19:49:56Z comborico1611: phoe: It's working correctly now: https://hastebin.com/beniruwima.lisp
2018-05-21T19:50:24Z comborico1611: Thanks!
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2018-05-21T19:53:06Z beach: eschulte_: You might want to look into Eclector.
2018-05-21T19:53:29Z beach: It does exactly that.
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2018-05-21T19:53:46Z Xach: The power supply on the Quicklisp build server has failed. Boo!
2018-05-21T19:54:18Z eschulte_: beach: Thanks!  Looking at it now
2018-05-21T19:54:23Z beach: eschulte_: It can wrap the S expressions in the file in standard objects that contain information about the source.
2018-05-21T19:55:05Z beach: eschulte_: And if you have questions, you can ask scymtym, who is the maintainer.
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2018-05-21T19:55:40Z eschulte_: beach: awesome, noted
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2018-05-21T20:06:47Z jmercouris: I'm trying to convert the following sql https://gist.github.com/b2259281e4c470a3930c05166c7cb2c0 to sxql
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2018-05-21T20:08:20Z jmercouris: I've got the following: https://gist.github.com/c9c50d181cccea43b26c5388af2ba2d4
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2018-05-21T20:08:38Z jmercouris: not sure what to put after :references
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2018-05-21T20:10:21Z jmercouris: also, references is not an accepted key
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2018-05-21T20:18:09Z jmercouris: looking at the source, seems no way to create a column with a foreign key
2018-05-21T20:18:21Z jmercouris: keyword args are only: type not-null default auto-increment autoincrement unique primary-key
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2018-05-21T20:18:55Z jmercouris: oh well
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2018-05-21T20:56:08Z jeosol: jmercouris?
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2018-05-21T20:56:30Z jmercouris: jeosol: yes?
2018-05-21T20:56:45Z jeosol: I was able to reach some of the Asian folks who started the dev of the CLML library
2018-05-21T20:56:55Z jmercouris: no way? that's awesome
2018-05-21T20:57:14Z jeosol: One of them said he is no longer associated with it, referred me to another dude, who said he does not know how to reach the maintainer
2018-05-21T20:57:24Z jmercouris: lol, well, it is some progress
2018-05-21T20:57:24Z jeosol: Oh, sorry,
2018-05-21T20:57:39Z jmercouris: even if it is a dead end, at least it is knowledge of it being a dead end
2018-05-21T20:57:42Z jeosol: It is seems it is round and round so far. But I may just pick it up and proceed as discussed
2018-05-21T20:57:59Z jmercouris: yeah, the plan B wasn't too bad
2018-05-21T20:58:12Z jeosol: I can pick it up, I just don't want to have issues with that maintainer who I can't reach so far
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2018-05-21T20:58:25Z jeosol: Especially, since there are license issues involved
2018-05-21T20:58:36Z jeosol: plan B?
2018-05-21T20:58:43Z jmercouris: well, treating it as a dependency
2018-05-21T20:58:59Z jmercouris: and licensing new code built on top of it in a different way, freezing it
2018-05-21T20:59:07Z jmercouris: no need to bring things back upstream, basically what we discussed
2018-05-21T20:59:14Z jeosol: Oh I see.
2018-05-21T20:59:47Z jmercouris: or even just comitting to the same license... as unfavorable as it is
2018-05-21T20:59:58Z jeosol: Makes sense. That's one option. Freeze it
2018-05-21T21:00:03Z jmercouris: I guess since you will be the author, you may package and license it in different ways
2018-05-21T21:00:20Z jeosol: that was the plan, as long as they are willing to relax or work around it. One of the dudes said it was possible, but he is not longer involved
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2018-05-21T21:00:51Z jmercouris: I see
2018-05-21T21:01:12Z jmercouris: a clean room implementation may also be quite fun
2018-05-21T21:01:21Z jmercouris: it really depends on what you are going for, whether you want to actually get something done or not
2018-05-21T21:01:28Z jmercouris: or it is more about the fun of doing it
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2018-05-21T21:03:46Z jeosol: I actually want to get something done. I have a huge code base in lisp, and have written small codes for KNN, fuzzy clustering, etc. For some other applications, I make calls to Python
2018-05-21T21:03:55Z jeosol: I would prefer things to be in lisp if at all possible.
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2018-05-21T21:04:19Z jeosol: From the look of the library, they seem to cover a lot of applications already and I would want to start by using it in purely application mode
2018-05-21T21:04:24Z jmercouris: jeosol: how do you ffi to python?
2018-05-21T21:04:39Z jeosol: run several open source examples using it.
2018-05-21T21:04:59Z jeosol: haha, no I am not ffi/cffi expert. It is just system call.
2018-05-21T21:05:05Z jmercouris: oh, I see
2018-05-21T21:05:28Z jmercouris: jeosol: have you published any of your existing code online?
2018-05-21T21:05:30Z jeosol: I wrote a python script that does everything writes a file. I do a system call to that script (via run-program ) and read the output file from the lisp side
2018-05-21T21:05:47Z jmercouris: so you're basically piping via the file system
2018-05-21T21:06:07Z jmercouris: seems pretty simple, lot less work than maintaining a server
2018-05-21T21:06:25Z jmercouris: I wish IPC in lisp was more straightforward, especially for unix domain sockets
2018-05-21T21:06:47Z jeosol: Oh, yeah. For my case, I wanted to use some specially tools in scikit-learn lib
2018-05-21T21:07:01Z jeosol: I am no socket expert, this is how I have done the interactions so far.
2018-05-21T21:08:17Z jeosol: btw, I sent out one last email to the Jap contact explicitly discussing the licensing issue and what I plan to do, and that he should direct me to who has the authority to make decisions.
2018-05-21T21:08:21Z jmercouris: the http socket support/libs are "ok", they are also not so good compared to other languages (from my perspective of learning them), but they are certainly much better than the unix domain socket support
2018-05-21T21:08:30Z jmercouris: s/http socket/bsd socket
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2018-05-21T21:09:12Z jmercouris: jeosol: I know you weren't trying to be offensive, but jfyi, in the US "Jap" is considered derogatory, mostly because of it's usage as slang during WW2
2018-05-21T21:09:29Z jeosol: I am sorry,
2018-05-21T21:09:35Z jeosol: It was not my intent at all.
2018-05-21T21:09:52Z jeosol: TIL sth
2018-05-21T21:09:56Z jmercouris: No, I gotcha, just pointing it out in case you ever meet a Japanese American :D
2018-05-21T21:10:07Z jeosol: Thanks for the info.
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2018-05-21T21:10:34Z jmercouris: also sounds good, hopefully they'll reply back with some sort of acknowledgement or even a new license..
2018-05-21T21:10:51Z jeosol: To avoid future issues, I would like to pick the library up, clean up any issues and make it open for people to use and contribute
2018-05-21T21:10:55Z jmercouris: s/it's/its
2018-05-21T21:11:19Z jmercouris: yeah, otherwise, it is like many other efforts in lisp, fragemented into its own ecosystem
2018-05-21T21:11:33Z jeosol: yeah, I am trying to avoid that
2018-05-21T21:11:49Z jmercouris: that's something that I think may be a pattern, the nature of lisp, the nature of macros, the strong customizability means that people get stuck in their own little silos and ecosystems, they end up wanting to make their own exact libraries
2018-05-21T21:11:51Z jeosol: Which is why I said, we can have a small committee going forward regarding this
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2018-05-21T21:12:25Z jmercouris: Yeah, definitely
2018-05-21T21:13:04Z jeosol: I did try to run Gabor Meli's code in the past, but I didn't have GPU so the training of the NN was taking too many days.
2018-05-21T21:13:28Z jeosol: I will try to pick of up again, modify the code to run a small problem instance
2018-05-21T21:13:38Z jeosol: I did send him an email, but no response at all.
2018-05-21T21:14:12Z jmercouris: the problem space I am most interested in, is one what White_Flame was telling me about, genetic algorithms
2018-05-21T21:14:39Z jmercouris: I didn't know anything about them really until about a week ago, fascinating stuff, seems like a specialty for Lisp
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2018-05-21T21:14:47Z jmercouris: at least, for one particular type of genetic algorithm
2018-05-21T21:15:40Z jmercouris: jeosol: why no GPU? were you running it on a server?
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2018-05-21T21:16:14Z jeosol: I have worked on genetic algorithms
2018-05-21T21:16:21Z jmercouris: jeosol: in lisp?
2018-05-21T21:16:22Z jeosol: and particle swarm optimization
2018-05-21T21:16:30Z jeosol: these are the two algorithms I have used mostly
2018-05-21T21:16:51Z jeosol: There is actually a code I am trying to clean up that looks into advanced forms of the GA
2018-05-21T21:18:15Z jeosol: jmercouris: for the GPU part, I mean, I took his problem, and ran it on my linux box. Gabor said with GPU (don't remember the spec) it took 1 day to train
2018-05-21T21:18:38Z jeosol: After my case took two days, I decide to kill it. It was not a dedicated server.
2018-05-21T21:19:07Z jmercouris: Oh, I see, so just your main machine just has onboard graphics or something
2018-05-21T21:19:36Z jeosol: Yeah, nothing fancy. I will go back to this blog again and look at the specs. But I should be able to run a small case
2018-05-21T21:19:49Z jeosol: which GA type are you interested in for which problem area?
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2018-05-21T21:21:12Z jmercouris: jeosol: I'm trying to develop an algorithm that optimizes the packing and shipping of boxes
2018-05-21T21:21:35Z jmercouris: I've thought about what kinds of things to mutate against, and a couple of things I thought would be good would be packing strategies
2018-05-21T21:21:43Z jeosol: Cool application.
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2018-05-21T21:22:19Z jmercouris: of course the packing strategies will be functions, so to be able to mutate them with each other (as code), would be interesting, instead of just tweaking the args passed to some function
2018-05-21T21:22:22Z jeosol: Ok, you may also thinking about GP -- genetic programming, it is one form that can evolve strategies and new insights
2018-05-21T21:23:14Z jmercouris: actually yes, I am thinking of genetic programming
2018-05-21T21:23:34Z jeosol: That makes sense, it more applicable than the conventional GA
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2018-05-21T21:23:50Z jeosol: and yes, lisp is more applicable, convenient facilities
2018-05-21T21:23:52Z jmercouris: I just read the wiki article, seems I was confusing the terms while reading
2018-05-21T21:24:05Z jmercouris: as you can see, my understanding is still very poor
2018-05-21T21:24:25Z jeosol: do you have any base code?
2018-05-21T21:24:33Z jmercouris: base code?
2018-05-21T21:24:45Z jmercouris: the code to evolve?
2018-05-21T21:24:52Z jeosol: I meant starting code to work it
2018-05-21T21:24:57Z jmercouris: No, not yet
2018-05-21T21:25:10Z jmercouris: I am writing survey software first, to determine if anyone actually would want this product
2018-05-21T21:25:16Z jmercouris: I'm almost done with my survey software
2018-05-21T21:25:26Z jeosol: I came to lisp the first time because of GA I was trying to convert to C++ at the time.
2018-05-21T21:25:28Z jmercouris: It's been a much harder task than I imagined it would be
2018-05-21T21:25:32Z jeosol: Nice, I think they would
2018-05-21T21:25:49Z jeosol: GP is not straightforward, encoding is the main issue
2018-05-21T21:26:05Z jmercouris: as with all of these silver bullets, it is a lot of "art" still
2018-05-21T21:26:12Z jmercouris: feature selection, how we normalize our data, etc
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2018-05-21T21:26:32Z jmercouris: people treat it like a crystal ball though...
2018-05-21T21:26:40Z jeosol: the solutions for GP problems are not always clear but when you see the results, you will have the aha moment, like yeah, that makes sense
2018-05-21T21:27:06Z jmercouris: Yeah, I have no illusions that it will just magically work, I just thought this might be an interesting way to iterate an algorithm
2018-05-21T21:27:35Z jeosol: Yes, the keys are the objective function and how the variables/features are parameterized
2018-05-21T21:27:37Z jmercouris: well, I didn't think of it, White_Flame did, after I described the problem
2018-05-21T21:27:55Z jeosol: Oh I see, he works in that space too?
2018-05-21T21:27:59Z jmercouris: not exactly
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2018-05-21T21:28:17Z jmercouris: he is an expert in that space though
2018-05-21T21:28:30Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if he would like me to share what he does, you may ask him yourself
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2018-05-21T21:28:54Z jeosol: No problem, I am just asking
2018-05-21T21:29:15Z jeosol: as in getting people with similar background for the ML lib work
2018-05-21T21:29:26Z jmercouris: Yeah, he might be interested
2018-05-21T21:29:32Z jmercouris: if I had to guess
2018-05-21T21:29:47Z jeosol: White_Flame?
2018-05-21T21:29:52Z jeosol: not sure he is still here
2018-05-21T21:30:01Z jmercouris: he is on at different hours every day
2018-05-21T21:30:04Z jeosol: anyway, we can discuss more if possible
2018-05-21T21:30:24Z jeosol: But it is very interesting problem
2018-05-21T21:30:38Z jmercouris: yeah, it is quite challenging
2018-05-21T21:30:46Z jmercouris: when I first started I thought "huh, can't be that hard"
2018-05-21T21:30:57Z jmercouris: but when I started trying to write an algorithm I realized the amount of permutations I would have to test
2018-05-21T21:31:08Z jmercouris: so I started thinking about greedy algorithms, and even those were way too heavy
2018-05-21T21:32:11Z jeosol: permutations?
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2018-05-21T21:34:21Z jeosol: I will have to get more info regarding your problem, otherwise, a straightforward GA may get you sth albeit limited and can be used to glean more insights
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2018-05-21T21:34:38Z jeosol: will depending on how the solutions are encoded.
2018-05-21T21:34:39Z jmercouris: permutations, I mean combinations of ways one might stack boxes
2018-05-21T21:35:32Z jeosol: I wanted to see that you meant by permutations. For a greedy method, you will need to test many combinations.
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2018-05-21T21:37:09Z jmercouris: yes, indeed
2018-05-21T21:37:11Z jeosol: they are global algorithms and you won't need to test many combinations. As long as each feature's limits are known, e.g., (bounds for continuous variables, number of possibilities for discrete values, ...) it's fine
2018-05-21T21:37:35Z jmercouris: yeah, of course, there is a maximum package size, things like tha
2018-05-21T21:38:00Z jmercouris: the complete domain space is this: what is the cheapest way to combine shipping products, and parcels to deliver them somewhere
2018-05-21T21:38:22Z jmercouris: e.g. if I have 3 parcels to ship, perhaps I should ship two of them grouped together with some USPS product, and the last one with some UPS product to ship it most cheaply somewhere
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2018-05-21T21:38:41Z jeosol: I see.
2018-05-21T21:38:46Z jmercouris: so I have to solve several problems,how to combine packages together, and how to combine products together
2018-05-21T21:38:58Z jmercouris: there is an explosion of permutations
2018-05-21T21:39:19Z jmercouris: furthermore, for many products, the prices are not discrete, but rather continuous
2018-05-21T21:40:06Z jeosol: hahaha. But the products are bounded, those are discrete or integer. prices can be encoded as continuous to say 2 decimal places (cents)
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2018-05-21T21:40:30Z jeosol: The algorithm will figure out that combination and permutations, that is what it does.
2018-05-21T21:40:32Z jmercouris: yeah, that makes it a little bit better
2018-05-21T21:40:48Z jmercouris: anyways, coding something like that by hand, is unbelievably difficult
2018-05-21T21:40:56Z jmercouris: especially when the products and rules surrounding products are chaning all the time
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2018-05-21T21:41:07Z jmercouris: which is why I was thinking about some generalized solution that can be more easily adapted and understood
2018-05-21T21:41:52Z jeosol: I think you will have to solve the problem with fixed static inputs, and later make the interface general enough to actually run the GA runs in parallel given new instance values
2018-05-21T21:42:15Z jmercouris: what do you mean by "fixed static inputs"?
2018-05-21T21:42:19Z jeosol: in essence, you wrap the GA engine with something that feeds input as a stream
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2018-05-21T21:43:33Z jeosol: What I mean is that for the GA to run effectively F(X) must not be stochastic for the same X (it can still perform well if things change though).
2018-05-21T21:44:02Z jmercouris: Ah, I see
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2018-05-21T21:44:28Z jeosol: so I mean, first ignore the fact that things are changing, then solve a fixed instance (products and prices), then generalize
2018-05-21T21:44:39Z jmercouris: yes, that was the plan actually
2018-05-21T21:44:45Z jmercouris: work with a very small, and artifical subset of rules
2018-05-21T21:44:54Z jeosol: You problem can be very fast, my F(X) takes 5 hours
2018-05-21T21:45:00Z jmercouris: and see if I can select some good genes/encodings, and then scale things up
2018-05-21T21:45:16Z jeosol: yeah, that is correct.
2018-05-21T21:45:36Z jeosol: So what you are maximizing or minimizing, shipping cost, travel times?
2018-05-21T21:45:51Z jmercouris: Shipping cost
2018-05-21T21:46:00Z jeosol: You said so before, my bad
2018-05-21T21:46:02Z jmercouris: though, depending on the results of my survey, maybe nobody cares about shipping cost
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2018-05-21T21:46:16Z jmercouris: maybe they care about box inventory, how many boxes of what types they need to keep
2018-05-21T21:46:33Z jmercouris: I'm not really sure what people care about, so I'll collect data first
2018-05-21T21:46:38Z jmercouris: my survey software is so close to being done
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2018-05-21T21:47:30Z jeosol: cool, will be interested to see what the survey says, but the problem is actually multiobjective, then we are heading into the territory of pareto solutions,
2018-05-21T21:47:49Z jeosol: but a first step, focus on shipping cost, and worry about what the client may need.
2018-05-21T21:48:27Z jmercouris: yeah, it is also a way to actually collect interest/potential customers
2018-05-21T21:49:57Z jeosol: That's good actually. You are in the US right?
2018-05-21T21:50:18Z jmercouris: I am a dual EU/US citizen, I spend my time about half/half
2018-05-21T21:50:32Z jeosol: I think you will get customers ...
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2018-05-21T21:50:41Z jeosol: people ship things all the time
2018-05-21T21:50:47Z jmercouris: sure, but many questions remain
2018-05-21T21:50:54Z jmercouris: are they usually shipping one or two items?
2018-05-21T21:51:10Z jmercouris: if they are shipping more than one item, perhaps it is only large companies like amazon, in which case, their integration costs would be astronomical
2018-05-21T21:51:41Z jmercouris: anyways, these are business questions, and don't really belong on #lisp
2018-05-21T21:51:42Z jeosol: Amazon has the option to package items depending on user preference.
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2018-05-21T21:51:50Z jeosol: Not sure what scale you are looking at,
2018-05-21T21:51:58Z jmercouris: we can move to #lispcafe
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2018-05-21T21:53:12Z jeosol: I was worried we are not discussing lisp specific stuff
2018-05-21T21:53:15Z jeosol: :-)
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2018-05-21T23:06:02Z iqubic: Looks like quantum computer programmers are turning to lisp.
2018-05-21T23:06:04Z iqubic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI
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2018-05-22T00:24:39Z jason_m: I am working on a system and had a compile time error in one of my source files.  When I quickload (asdf load) the system, I land in the debugger with a condition of type UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR.
2018-05-22T00:24:41Z jason_m: I know I can look at the error in the inspector, but I don't see the actual underlying compile error.
2018-05-22T00:24:50Z jason_m: Can I get to that in the debugger/inspector?
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2018-05-22T00:27:55Z jason_m: If I compile and load the particular file, I get a SB-INT:COMPILED-PROGRAM-ERROR which better directs me to the problem, but to get it, I abort from the debugger, open the file, and load that (or sometimes C-c C-c form by form) to get the more specific message.
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2018-05-22T02:48:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-22T02:58:52Z vtomole: Morning beach
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2018-05-22T03:21:29Z vtomole: clhs check-type
2018-05-22T03:21:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm
2018-05-22T03:22:24Z beach: vtomole: You can communicate with specbot like this: /msg specbot clhs check-type
2018-05-22T03:22:47Z vtomole: Thanks!
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2018-05-22T03:23:34Z beach: Showing specbot replies publicly is useful mostly to tell other people where to look, or to ask people for help on an entry.
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2018-05-22T04:37:30Z vtomole: Is there a CL procedure that does "'(1 2 3 4) -> '((1) (2) (3) (4))"?
2018-05-22T04:40:10Z rme: you could use (mapcar 'list '(1 2 3 4))
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2018-05-22T04:40:59Z vtomole: rme: Ok thanks
2018-05-22T04:41:24Z oleo: (defun push-in (list) (let ((result))(dolist (x list (nreverse result)) (cond (t (push (list x) result))))))
2018-05-22T04:42:29Z on_ion: ?
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2018-05-22T06:15:39Z flip214: jasom: don't you see the error message in the REPL output, along with the QL output?
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2018-05-22T08:30:04Z akr: Hello, I'm printing out an argument to my function to figure out what it is, and all I'm getting is "[object Object]"
2018-05-22T08:30:17Z akr: how do I examine this further?
2018-05-22T08:31:36Z jackdaniel: sjl: are you aware of the collect macro from cmuutils?
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2018-05-22T08:33:00Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/9aafd32b (implementation curbed for my local utils)
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2018-05-22T08:54:29Z jdz: akr: that looks like JavaScript.
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2018-05-22T08:56:34Z akr: jdz: you mean json?
2018-05-22T08:58:33Z jdz: akr: no, I mean something that a JavaScript implementation (e.g., browser) would write to the console when an object is converted to a string instead of writing the object itself.
2018-05-22T08:58:53Z jdz: akr: this is #lisp, btw.
2018-05-22T08:58:57Z shrdlu68: akr: type-of
2018-05-22T08:59:40Z akr: jdz: well, it's what (format nil "~a" arg) literally returns
2018-05-22T08:59:54Z shrdlu68: akr: You want ~S
2018-05-22T09:00:17Z jdz: akr: what implementation?
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2018-05-22T09:00:53Z akr: SBCL
2018-05-22T09:01:35Z jdz: akr: also, instead of printing the value, you can use BREAK, and the inspector to inspect it.
2018-05-22T09:02:18Z jdz: I still wonder which library has customised the printing to print objects like that...
2018-05-22T09:02:36Z akr: oh, cool, didn't know about break
2018-05-22T09:02:43Z akr: shrdlu68: thanks, that helps me a bit
2018-05-22T09:03:50Z shrdlu68: Very unhelpful print-object method.
2018-05-22T09:04:58Z akr: okay I see there is an issue on the frontend javascript, jdz was right all along
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2018-05-22T09:13:01Z akr: thank you for the help
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2018-05-22T10:17:14Z jack_rabbit: Is it good or practice to (declaim (optimize ...)) inside library packages?
2018-05-22T10:17:20Z jack_rabbit: good or bad*
2018-05-22T10:18:45Z loke: jackdaniel: Bad
2018-05-22T10:19:15Z loke: Well, it's acceptable as long as SAFETY isn't reduced
2018-05-22T10:19:18Z loke: (to 0)
2018-05-22T10:19:54Z jack_rabbit: If I declaim it in my repl, will that apply to packages I load with quicklisp and asdf?
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2018-05-22T10:23:46Z loke: jack_rabbit: Hmm.. I don't think so.
2018-05-22T10:24:25Z jack_rabbit: hmm. :(
2018-05-22T10:24:33Z jack_rabbit: I didn't think so either.
2018-05-22T10:24:58Z jack_rabbit: It would be nice for a user to be able to specify that, so the library writer doesn't have to.
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2018-05-22T10:26:31Z loke: jack_rabbit: You can, but it's an implementation-specific extension
2018-05-22T10:26:41Z jack_rabbit: mmm
2018-05-22T10:27:07Z loke: For SBCL, look up SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY
2018-05-22T10:28:33Z jack_rabbit: Sweet, thanks!
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2018-05-22T10:38:55Z antoszka: Guys, would you be able to point me towards Peter Norvig's note about his PAIP book being not anymore very useful for AI but still considered a very good CL book?
2018-05-22T10:39:27Z antoszka: I need to link this to a friend. (https://xkcd.com/386/ :))
2018-05-22T10:42:08Z Xach: https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2005/06/12/lessons-from-paip
2018-05-22T10:42:24Z antoszka: thx
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2018-05-22T11:09:19Z malgrand: hey this is my first time using irc and this just seemed to ask lisp related questions. I was looking to learn a new language and make a text-adventure for fun in that language. Do you guys think that would be a good idea in lisp?
2018-05-22T11:11:53Z edgar-rft: malgrand, there's a book for learning lisp with lots of games: <http://landoflisp.com/>
2018-05-22T11:12:35Z edgar-rft: and there's a #lispgames channel full of lisp game programmers :-)
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2018-05-22T11:13:01Z lukego: Hello bastards. ;-)
2018-05-22T11:14:51Z malgrand: edgar-rft, oh thanks! I'll look into it
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2018-05-22T11:15:56Z edgar-rft: lukego: tell us more from your family
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2018-05-22T11:23:16Z lukego: edgar-rft: How appropriate, you fight like a cow!
2018-05-22T11:24:30Z flip214: people, calm down -- and talk lisp.
2018-05-22T11:25:19Z lukego: Hey I'm looking at USOCKETS and wondering whether people have already been running this with lots of sockets and e.g. adopting the more hardcore platform-specific select()-like system calls. Anybody been up to such mischief already?
2018-05-22T11:26:11Z jdz: lukego: what brings you to lisp this fine day?
2018-05-22T11:26:32Z jdz: lukego: such thing is on my todo-list.
2018-05-22T11:26:56Z lukego: I'm actually hacking Lisp on a fun project. Story for another time :). But it's jolly pleasant.
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2018-05-22T11:28:53Z shrdlu68: There's IOLib: https://www.cliki.net/IOlib
2018-05-22T11:29:05Z jdz: lukego: I seem to remember Fukamachi's webserver (woo?) used libevent at some point.
2018-05-22T11:29:26Z lukego: I'm peeking in the USOCKETS code (do we still capitalize symbol names like that? :-)) and I see that on LispWorks Linux it's delegating to a builtin mechanism (MP:NOTICE-FD, MP:UNNOTICE-FD), and on LispWorks Windows it's doing scary Win32 API calls, and on CCL it's calling select() via FFI. Seems quite nice that there is a backend for each platform that provides an easy point to hack. Just vaguely wondering if there are git branches aro
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2018-05-22T11:31:07Z jdz: Could be lev: https://github.com/fukamachi/lev
2018-05-22T11:31:54Z jdz: It probably does not integrate too well with implementation's streams.
2018-05-22T11:36:19Z lukego: I've looked briefly at lev. Seems like USOCKET would be the simplest integration point for that? Since you can already access things like file descriptors there to bridge the domain between streams and system calls.
2018-05-22T11:37:11Z jdz: Yes, I totally agree.  Just mentioning as another option.
2018-05-22T11:37:24Z jdz: I don't like extra dependencies, especially foreign ones.
2018-05-22T11:38:47Z jdz: But everybody was happy to see the Woo performance graph (https://github.com/fukamachi/woo) at ELS 2014.
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2018-05-22T11:40:58Z lukego: I wonder what Woo does for its sockets layer...
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2018-05-22T11:41:17Z jdz: I'd bet on lots of FFI.
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2018-05-22T11:42:39Z jdz: lukego: This confirms it: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/blob/master/src/ev/socket.lisp
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2018-05-22T11:44:32Z lukego: That doesn't suit me because I want something portable. So the best option so far sounds like starting with usocket and hacking one or more backends to use libev.
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2018-05-22T11:44:52Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2018-05-22T11:45:44Z jdz: lukego: Sure, distracting you from your plan was not my intention.  Sorry for all the noise.
2018-05-22T11:45:51Z beach: lukego: Long time no see.
2018-05-22T11:46:09Z lukego: jdz: no this has been very helpful, thank you :)
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2018-05-22T11:46:20Z lukego: Hello beach!
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2018-05-22T11:48:37Z lukego: beach: are you still in Bordeaux or did you end up sticking around in Vietnam? :)
2018-05-22T11:49:20Z beach: I am still in Bordeaux.  Though, right now, I am in the airport in Amsterdam waiting for a flight home.  What about you?  Where are you these days?
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2018-05-22T11:52:56Z lukego: I'm nowadays in a little dairy farming village in the Swiss Alps with a wife, two small boys, and a jack russell. Change of pace :).
2018-05-22T11:53:47Z beach: Indeed.  Congratulations!
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2018-05-22T11:55:58Z theemacsshibe[m]: I somehow slipped into using closures a lot and it's great.
2018-05-22T11:56:35Z lukego: Thanks :).
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2018-05-22T12:13:49Z beach: Crap!  My flight home is delayed (at least) 1.5 hours.
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2018-05-22T12:16:36Z fe[nl]ix: hi lukego :)
2018-05-22T12:19:12Z sjl: jackdaniel: wasn't aware of that particular one.  serapeum has something similar, apparently so does arc
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2018-05-22T12:20:43Z shrdlu68: beach: The trials and tribulations of the 21st-century hominid.
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2018-05-22T12:21:22Z beach: Yeah.  Also known as first-world problems.
2018-05-22T12:21:52Z shrdlu68: At least we don't have to deal with predation risk, most of the time.
2018-05-22T12:22:03Z beach: Indeed.
2018-05-22T12:23:38Z lukego: Howdy fe[nl]ix! I was just thinking it would be awfully nice to use IOLib if I were a little less sensitive to portability at the moment :)
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2018-05-22T12:41:38Z Xach: just a bit more polish and you can use slitch?
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2018-05-22T12:45:03Z jackdaniel has in mind some jokes about polish-polish homonyms, probably bad ones though
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2018-05-22T13:38:13Z makomo: any recommendations for stuff i might read to get an idea/understanding of environment objects?
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2018-05-22T13:41:06Z nowhere_man: Hi all
2018-05-22T13:41:51Z nowhere_man: I recently published a new draft of BULK, a binary format inspired by Erik Narggum's rant on XML
2018-05-22T13:41:52Z nowhere_man: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thierry-bulk/
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2018-05-22T13:42:31Z Bike: makomo: they're pretty undefined. you can pass them to functions that accept them and that's it. no accessors or anything.
2018-05-22T13:42:32Z Colleen: Bike: Kevslinger said 35 minutes, 21 seconds ago: Kevin has a linux question
2018-05-22T13:42:49Z nowhere_man: I'm wondering if the way I deal with definition is sensible, so anyone with an interest in PL theory and lexical scoping would be very welcome to criticize my work :-)
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2018-05-22T13:43:36Z makomo: Bike: so the thing that CLTL2 says about them is just a proposed interface
2018-05-22T13:43:53Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-22T13:44:07Z Bike: some implementations kind of support it, but not entirely
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2018-05-22T14:10:06Z shrdlu68: nowhere_man: How does this compare with ASN?
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2018-05-22T14:14:20Z nowhere_man: I I understand ASN right, with ASN you define an inflexible ad hoc binary format with it
2018-05-22T14:14:31Z nowhere_man: no two ASN-defined formats are mutually-compatible
2018-05-22T14:14:52Z nowhere_man: BULK formats all are
2018-05-22T14:16:06Z nowhere_man: (which makes it possible for ASN to create a more compact format, I guess)
2018-05-22T14:16:31Z shrdlu68: What do you mean "inflexible"?
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2018-05-22T14:17:12Z shrdlu68: I don't understand the mutual compatibility thing either.
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2018-05-22T15:05:05Z kami: Hello #lisp
2018-05-22T15:05:41Z oleo: sup sup
2018-05-22T15:06:41Z makomo: hi
2018-05-22T15:13:03Z dlowe: how does BULK compare with protobufs and thrift?
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2018-05-22T15:14:48Z nowhere_man: dlowe: IIUC, like ASN, they define ad hoc formats, not mutually-compatible formats
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2018-05-22T15:16:48Z oleo: hello
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2018-05-22T15:17:10Z oleo: how would i be able to tell what the current output-translations are ?
2018-05-22T15:17:16Z oleo: for asdf ?
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2018-05-22T15:21:31Z oleo: ah got it
2018-05-22T15:21:39Z oleo: asdf:*output-translation-parameter*
2018-05-22T15:21:46Z oleo: asdf:*output-translations-parameter*
2018-05-22T15:22:21Z oleo: and asdf:*user-cache*
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2018-05-22T15:34:51Z White_Flame: nowhere_man: what's the actual use case for BULK?  it seems awfully generic, and might not be much smaller in practice than a "minified" plain sexpr representation
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2018-05-22T15:37:27Z White_Flame: we have a generic binary protocol, which does lists, maps, numbers, UTF-8 strings, and a few other bits & bobs, that we use for encoding messages in a distributed system.  We considered having a JSON serializer instead of dealing with our own.  But converting our types to a JSON type, eg ["map", "key", "val", 123, "val", "123", "val"]  or something of the like means that we first convert from our objects to JSON style lists/objects,
2018-05-22T15:37:27Z White_Flame: then from JSON to byte stream.  That's much more cruft to drag around than just serializing to binary in the first place
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2018-05-22T15:39:13Z White_Flame: also, generic formats aren't ever really "mutually compatible".  The only thing you can do with XML and its ilk is to deserialize it.  Your code has no idea how to work with it if it isn't of the node shapes that it expects
2018-05-22T15:40:06Z White_Flame: and in modern usage, XML/JSON/etc are bringing such immense loads of fine-grained details that they're not effectively human readable anyway
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2018-05-22T15:47:43Z phoe: White_Flame: take into account that "human-readable" does not mean "not complex"
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2018-05-22T15:48:41Z phoe: theoretically all macroexpansions are human-readable, even in case of LOOP or TRIVIA/OPTIMA patternmatching stuff.
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2018-05-22T15:55:03Z nowhere_man: White_Flame: the goal is to provide a framework for formats like file archives, images, XML documents, with compactness and decentralization
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2018-05-22T15:55:38Z nowhere_man: the decentralization part needs some semantics that do beyong just binary sexpr
2018-05-22T15:56:53Z White_Flame: phoe: right, same thing.  The _use_ of data formats means they're no longer effectively human friendly anymore
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2018-05-22T16:04:02Z White_Flame: nowhere_man: effectively, would you say that it basically allows you to build an ASN-style packed binary format with a format declaration specifier included?
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2018-05-22T16:18:40Z nowhere_man: White_Flame: somewhat, yes
2018-05-22T16:19:03Z nowhere_man: you can always parse a BULK stream without prior knowledge
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2018-05-22T16:20:07Z nowhere_man: and if you know a BULK image vocabulary and you parse a BULK stream that is such an image with a metadata vocabulary in it that you don't know, you'll still get the image
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2018-05-22T16:30:14Z dlowe: it seems like the primary innovation here is the namespace with a guid. Is that reasonable?
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2018-05-22T16:30:55Z dlowe: from my experience with protobufs, there are rather huge wins involved if you have a partially-parseable format that is uniformly used everywhere
2018-05-22T16:31:15Z oleo: what happens when you unbind a binding in a lexical env say let
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2018-05-22T16:31:56Z oleo: (let ((blah something)) (makunbound blah) .....)
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2018-05-22T16:32:32Z dlowe: oleo: It only affects the symbol-value
2018-05-22T16:32:35Z dlowe: so nothing happens
2018-05-22T16:32:51Z oleo: hmm
2018-05-22T16:33:09Z White_Flame: nothing happens to the lexical binding, you mean.  Certainly something can happen to the toplevel binding ;)
2018-05-22T16:33:23Z dlowe: well, yah
2018-05-22T16:33:29Z oleo: toplevel ?
2018-05-22T16:33:45Z White_Flame: hmm, actually
2018-05-22T16:33:50Z dlowe: global environment
2018-05-22T16:34:04Z White_Flame: if BLAH is declared special via defvar or whatever, then the LET is a dynamic binding
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2018-05-22T16:34:13Z oleo: yah
2018-05-22T16:34:19Z dlowe: but not one in the global environment
2018-05-22T16:34:28Z oleo: so what does that mean ?
2018-05-22T16:34:30Z White_Flame: but if it's only ever been setf'd and not declared special, then we would get this split situation
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2018-05-22T16:35:07Z White_Flame: ...where (makunbound blah) does not refer to the lexical variable blah
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2018-05-22T16:35:42Z White_Flame: (makunbound 'blah) actually
2018-05-22T16:35:46Z White_Flame: if you mean the symbol blah
2018-05-22T16:35:58Z oleo: say i want to ensure a global variable retains it's original value outside of some some other program unbinding it
2018-05-22T16:36:24Z White_Flame: first google hit for me: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/WtsTkRdqOWg
2018-05-22T16:36:51Z oleo: global-variable here -> subscope-where-it-gets-unbound-> reswitch to the surrounding env
2018-05-22T16:37:02Z White_Flame: (let ((*global-var* nil)) ..call stuff that has use of that var scoped)
2018-05-22T16:37:03Z oleo: s/env/scope/
2018-05-22T16:37:27Z White_Flame: or (let ((*global-var* *global-var*)) ...) if you want to pass through the existing value
2018-05-22T16:37:57Z White_Flame: I do a lot of this sort of thing in thread pooling.  Load up a bunch of dynamic bindings like that for the current context, and let some job rip
2018-05-22T16:38:03Z oleo: well i have a problem with maxima
2018-05-22T16:38:21Z oleo: i looked at the code today and was wondering why output-translations were deleted for it
2018-05-22T16:38:52Z oleo: and it seems it does that for some reason only for sbcl and asdf version 2
2018-05-22T16:39:20Z oleo: what is done there is (push 'asdf:clear-configuration *save-hooks*)
2018-05-22T16:39:58Z oleo: that means while maxima gets built my output-translations are gone, that's fine so far
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2018-05-22T16:41:06Z oleo: but i'm loading an asdf system which calls the maxima compilation, and after maxima compiles it looses cause the output-translations are gone
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2018-05-22T16:44:48Z oleo: and it doesn't matter obviously if i upgraded to version 3 of asdf on the go....
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2018-05-22T16:49:39Z oleo: so thread1->thread2->thread1
2018-05-22T16:50:16Z oleo: thread2 is maxima compilation, but that phase deletes a global needed value, afaiu
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2018-05-22T16:53:39Z oleo: i have to think more about that somehow......
2018-05-22T16:53:56Z oleo: not sure how to proceed
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2018-05-22T16:56:23Z oleo: having saved the output-translations to *init-hooks* wouldn't work either in that case i think
2018-05-22T16:56:57Z oleo: cause it's not restarting a new instance of sbcl upon return from thread2
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2018-05-22T16:58:27Z oleo: that stuff was thought for pure maxima toplevel compilation, not some environment around it
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2018-05-22T17:11:11Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I made some really simple survey software in Lisp if anyone is interested in using it /building off of it: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/survey
2018-05-22T17:11:41Z jmercouris: it is pretty cool because you can make http requests with XML bodies to the service to dynamically create surveys
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2018-05-22T17:14:35Z White_Flame: why XML and not sexpr?
2018-05-22T17:14:43Z oleo: survey question numero un: "do you think you are you?!"
2018-05-22T17:14:45Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-22T17:18:10Z jmercouris: White_Flame: I figured XML is more universal
2018-05-22T17:18:46Z jmercouris: White_Flame: I'm toying with the idea of expanding this into a platform like DISQUS where it is open source, and you can run your own service, or you can use mine
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2018-05-22T17:19:24Z jmercouris: White_Flame: anyways, this software was actually developed to answer the question that we talked about earlier, is there a demand for a service to group the packages/ship them cheaper
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2018-05-22T17:19:46Z White_Flame: that would be good to know
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2018-05-22T17:21:23Z jmercouris: having said all of this, making it work with sexpr wouldn't be a huge leap in logic, the xml is already transformed via s-xml:parse-xml-string
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2018-05-22T17:21:35Z jmercouris: s/transformed/interpreted
2018-05-22T17:22:02Z White_Flame: or JSON-in, JSON-out
2018-05-22T17:22:24Z jmercouris: yeah or that, I guess the input data can be abstracted
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2018-05-22T17:24:08Z jmercouris: anyways, not a super huge priority right now, for now I just plan to use the tool
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2018-05-22T18:00:58Z aeth: White_Flame: I've brought this up in the past, but I don't like any current JSON library that I'm aware of
2018-05-22T18:01:24Z aeth: They mostly seem to be designed to make lisp <-> json hard.
2018-05-22T18:03:00Z aeth: I think XML is probably a better choice from a Lisp perspective.
2018-05-22T18:08:30Z aeth: I guess JSON and YAML support are probably on the weaker side for Lisp compared to comparable languages because with a lot of the use cases people just use s-expressions as data
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2018-05-22T18:17:10Z White_Flame: aeth: one of the biggest problems is true/false/null/[]
2018-05-22T18:17:27Z White_Flame: and that muddles with lisp-side representation choices
2018-05-22T18:19:20Z aeth: White_Flame: You can solve that by not allowing bare lists. When decoding, simply tag it with an extra cons like e.g. [] => '(json-array)
2018-05-22T18:19:34Z flip214: I'd like to have a set of functions give the caller notice of some conditions, and thought I'd just (THROW :no-filter-found nil) and CATCH that (as NIL already means "no data").
2018-05-22T18:19:40Z aeth: And require the same thing when encoding because otherwise you can't disambiguate between lists-as-sequences and lists-as-alists/plists
2018-05-22T18:19:43Z White_Flame: right, and that goes down the territory of "seem to be designed to make lisp <-> json hard" ;)
2018-05-22T18:20:10Z flip214: but a simple (CATCH ...) doesn't allow me to return something different, does it?
2018-05-22T18:21:32Z White_Flame: CATCH will act like a PROGN on normal return, and return the respective THROWn value otherwise
2018-05-22T18:21:57Z flip214: I'd have to (BLOCK nil (CATCH :no-filter-found (return (some-function))) (code-for-no-filter))
2018-05-22T18:22:12Z aeth: (list 1 2 3) => error; (list 'json-array 1 2 3) => [1, 2, 3]; (list 'plist :foo 42) => {"foo" : 42} or {"FOO" : 42} depending on settings and/or print-case. Default for symbols to JSON strings probably should be to :upcase into CL and :downcase into JSON strings, although obviously that won't work for arbitrary JSON, where case sensitivity might matter.
2018-05-22T18:22:23Z flip214: and that RETURN in there hurts my aesthetics...
2018-05-22T18:22:29Z aeth: Probably should allow any arbitrary function, e.g. cffi:translate-camelcase-name
2018-05-22T18:23:00Z flip214: White_Flame: so I'd still have to bind the result and check that against EQuality of some keywords?
2018-05-22T18:23:13Z White_Flame: depends on what you're throwing
2018-05-22T18:23:17Z flip214: currently I just return :no-filter-found and check for that - once.
2018-05-22T18:23:18Z White_Flame: and what the normal return case is
2018-05-22T18:23:29Z White_Flame: would nil/non-nill suffice?
2018-05-22T18:23:37Z flip214: White_Flame: no. NIL means "no data".
2018-05-22T18:23:55Z aeth: White_Flame: But lisp <-> json can't be perfect because you'd have to decide on the default for json -> lisp. I'd choose json array to Lisp vector (not list!) and json object to hash table (not plist or alist!) as the default, personally. Closest semantic match. But json objects are also equally valid as plists, alists, structs, and CLOS objects and json arrays could also be lists.
2018-05-22T18:24:03Z White_Flame: (case (catch ...) (:no-filter-found ...))
2018-05-22T18:24:33Z flip214: White_Flame: that means that I have to pass :no-filter-found at least three times - in the THROW, in the CATCH, and in a CASE clause. that doesn't feel so nice.
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2018-05-22T18:24:42Z aeth: flip214: macro
2018-05-22T18:24:52Z White_Flame: aeth: yeah, I know.  I've dealt with a lot of that.  I was just reinforcing that anything you come up with equals your assessment of "seems to be designed to make lisp <-> json hard"
2018-05-22T18:25:14Z White_Flame: flip214: what other values are there?
2018-05-22T18:25:37Z flip214: White_Flame: currently the "main" return value is a list of records - or NIL for "no records".
2018-05-22T18:25:41Z White_Flame: also, the catch doesn't need the value thrown, only the tag
2018-05-22T18:25:48Z White_Flame: so the tag is in throw/catch, the value is in throw/case
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2018-05-22T18:26:31Z flip214: White_Flame: you've had :no-filter-found in the CASE as well!
2018-05-22T18:26:38Z flip214: as I said, 3 times.
2018-05-22T18:26:40Z White_Flame: that's because I thought it was the value you wanted to return
2018-05-22T18:27:28Z White_Flame: maybe you'd be better served with handler-case
2018-05-22T18:27:30Z flip214: from the inner function - yes. the outer one needs to catch that [sic ;] and replace with another data set.
2018-05-22T18:27:43Z aeth: White_Flame: I guess the solution is probably more JSON (no comments!) as metadata that could be used to override (library or program) default choices and allow for a round trip even when e.g. a struct and a CLOS object are both serialized.
2018-05-22T18:28:02Z flip214: well, currently I'm just _directly_ returning :no-filter-found - and check for that, so the keywords is only used two times.
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2018-05-22T18:28:20Z White_Flame: or the inner function should just return the replacement set instead of a tag indicating the replacement set should be used
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2018-05-22T18:28:28Z flip214: but it felt so clean to THROW the special CONDITION...
2018-05-22T18:28:36Z White_Flame: or use multiple values like GETHASH
2018-05-22T18:28:56Z flip214: White_Flame: the thing is, there is not _one_ inner function - it's a set of methods, and I don't want each to have to know the default.
2018-05-22T18:29:07Z flip214: yeah, I was pondering that too
2018-05-22T18:29:24Z flip214: perhaps that would be better still - either return data, or (values NIL :no-filter-found) etc.
2018-05-22T18:29:50Z White_Flame: (values nil t) would suffice.  It's a boolean, right?
2018-05-22T18:29:58Z White_Flame: are there other values for that flag?
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2018-05-22T18:30:57Z White_Flame: the value is only special if it's intermixed with other things.  If you have a set-aside value slot for it, it need only be boolean
2018-05-22T18:31:04Z flip214: White_Flame: there may be, in the future.
2018-05-22T18:31:17Z flip214: don't know yet.
2018-05-22T18:31:33Z flip214: so right now I could simply pass :no-filter-found and treat that as a generalized boolean.
2018-05-22T18:31:44Z White_Flame: also, why CATCH instead of just returning a keyword in the first place?
2018-05-22T18:31:57Z White_Flame: does it need to abort from inside the body?
2018-05-22T18:32:26Z White_Flame: then (if (listp ...) ...) would distinguish your return values
2018-05-22T18:32:39Z flip214: White_Flame: yeah, that's about what I'm doing right now.
2018-05-22T18:33:04Z flip214: as I said, THROWing a special CONDITION seemed like an appropriate use -- I don't use them that often ;)
2018-05-22T18:33:17Z flip214: thanks for all the help, anyway!
2018-05-22T18:33:24Z White_Flame: you're not throwing a "condition" in CL-speak though
2018-05-22T18:33:40Z White_Flame: unless you're actually manifesting a condition object
2018-05-22T18:33:42Z flip214: but I might!
2018-05-22T18:33:56Z White_Flame: code doesn't "might".  code executes pretty explicitly ;)
2018-05-22T18:35:36Z eschulte_: is there an easy way to search quicklisp for all packages which use a particular package?
2018-05-22T18:35:37Z flip214: well, it's a nonlocal transfer of the control flow - I put that in the same box as conditions.
2018-05-22T18:35:45Z aeth: White_Flame: except with undefined behavior
2018-05-22T18:35:55Z White_Flame undefines aeth ;)
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2018-05-22T18:36:17Z flip214: eschulte_: does (defgeneric dependency-tree (system)) help?
2018-05-22T18:36:39Z flip214: eschulte_: or you want (who-depends-on)
2018-05-22T18:37:07Z flip214: not sure whether that works recursively, though
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2018-05-22T18:38:24Z flip214: thank you!
2018-05-22T18:38:25Z eschulte_: I'd like to supply a system name and get back a list of every system in quicklisp which :depends-on that system.  Just first-level (non-transitive) dependencies would be fine.
2018-05-22T18:39:32Z flip214: eschulte_: try (who-depends-on)
2018-05-22T18:40:12Z eschulte_: flip214: oh, perfect, thanks
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2018-05-22T19:25:26Z oleo: (defparameter *x* 0) (let ((*x* 1)) (sb-thread:join-thread (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*x* *x*)) *x*))))) -> 0
2018-05-22T19:25:36Z oleo: (defparameter *x* 0) (let ((*x* 1)) (sb-thread:join-thread (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*x* 1)) *x*))))) -> 1
2018-05-22T19:25:41Z oleo: hahahaa
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2018-05-22T19:26:41Z oleo: oh man
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2018-05-22T19:32:23Z oleo: (let ((*x* 1)) (sb-thread:join-thread (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*x* *x*)) (setf *x* "abc")))))) -> "abc"
2018-05-22T19:32:27Z oleo: *x* -> 0
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2018-05-22T19:33:29Z oleo: so read the global value eventually, if you don't bind it, but write only to your own version
2018-05-22T19:33:50Z oleo: that's called dynamic ya ?
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2018-05-22T19:38:20Z oleo: (let ((*x* 1)) (sb-thread:join-thread (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (setf *x* "abc")))) -> "abc"
2018-05-22T19:38:26Z oleo: *x* -> "abc"
2018-05-22T19:38:27Z oleo: oO
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2018-05-22T19:39:14Z oleo: so to be thread-local one has to create the bindings....
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2018-05-22T19:42:52Z mfiano: Considering threads are not part of the standard, it is undefined behavior whether they will be thread-local or not.
2018-05-22T19:43:26Z oleo: will there be a new spec soon ?
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2018-05-22T19:48:04Z pierpal: no
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2018-05-22T19:48:15Z aeth: You'd not only need to pay for it, you'd first have to convince the majority of the community decision makers that it's necessary. The easiest way would probably be to hire as many as possible.
2018-05-22T19:48:43Z aeth: You could probably get away with just getting the developers of SBCL, CCL, and ECL on board.
2018-05-22T19:49:27Z Bike: it's not undefined, it's just defined by bt
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2018-05-22T19:49:30Z aeth: But you'd probably also want the Clasp and SICL developers, too.
2018-05-22T19:49:32Z oleo: err, the previous spec makers didn't gather together because of payment i suppose
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2018-05-22T19:49:57Z oleo: or ?
2018-05-22T19:49:59Z oleo: lol
2018-05-22T19:50:32Z aeth: oleo: How many of the people involved in the CL spec were employed by companies that used CL commercially? How many such companies exist today?
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2018-05-22T19:55:45Z jmercouris: I wish the spec would advance in backwards compatible ways
2018-05-22T19:56:00Z jmercouris: like it would be nice if threads were considered part of it
2018-05-22T19:56:10Z jmercouris: I guess it doesn't really matter so much since bt threads exists
2018-05-22T19:56:47Z aeth: The main thing that would have to be worked on in a spec would probably be the type system.
2018-05-22T19:56:58Z jmercouris: yeah, probably
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2018-05-22T19:57:12Z jmercouris: I see a lot of complaints about that
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2018-05-22T19:57:41Z aeth: One simple example: make SBCL's gradual-typing-via-declare the standard, expected behavior. It's already assumed in a bunch of places. No need for syntax changes. Macros can create more convenient syntax.
2018-05-22T19:57:42Z dlowe: it'd also be nice if there were a standard scheduler
2018-05-22T19:58:04Z jmercouris: has anyone else noticed a downturn in activity since ELS? did something happen?
2018-05-22T20:01:49Z jackdaniel: yes, we have moved to #lisp-secret-channel  ;-)
2018-05-22T20:02:30Z aeth: all of the people involved in CL implementations go to #anti-standards-committee where they plot about ways to prevent CL's standard from getting an update
2018-05-22T20:02:47Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you being serious?
2018-05-22T20:02:56Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: why didn't you call it #lisp-cabal?
2018-05-22T20:03:01Z White_Flame: there's CL2.1.  all it takes for there to be a standard is for somebody to write it up, and others to use it
2018-05-22T20:03:33Z White_Flame: so obviously it's best when there's concensus, like the lisp industry getting together to create Common Lisp
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2018-05-22T20:03:55Z jmercouris: True, but standards without some powerful leader behind them are just documents
2018-05-22T20:04:02Z aeth: White_Flame: All it takes for there to be a standard is SBCL, CCL, and ECL agreeing on something.
2018-05-22T20:04:13Z aeth: At least until there's another popular FOSS implementation.
2018-05-22T20:04:24Z jmercouris: getting lisp programmers to agree on anything is like herding cats
2018-05-22T20:04:59Z White_Flame: yep, and in many ways that's how CL formed in the first place: consolidating existing "ad hoc" features that were popular
2018-05-22T20:05:01Z jackdaniel: to agree and to have time to implement agreed *thingey* are two different things
2018-05-22T20:05:30Z jmercouris: I think what would be best would be an extension of the language in the form of macros
2018-05-22T20:05:36Z jmercouris: these things wouldn't require duplicated implementation efforts
2018-05-22T20:05:40Z dlowe: standards without government, corporate, or academic support are just paper.
2018-05-22T20:05:45Z MichaelRaskin: Well, there is a reserve of implemented things where agreeing on naming is almost equal to implementing
2018-05-22T20:05:45Z jmercouris: so it's just increasing the standard lib, so to speak
2018-05-22T20:06:05Z jackdaniel: things which doesn't require implementation support (as in: writing macros) would be hard to justify as part of the standard
2018-05-22T20:06:10Z jackdaniel: since they may be implemented as a library
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2018-05-22T20:06:42Z jackdaniel: consolidating some features is another story: i.e agree on common interface to semaphores, or threads (in fact: agree on something what portability layers try to unify)
2018-05-22T20:06:43Z White_Flame: jmercouris: well, the "standard lib" is defined by the cl spec
2018-05-22T20:07:06Z White_Flame: I often liken this part to C (at least pre modern updates), where the language is small, but the industry has standardized on popular libraries
2018-05-22T20:07:59Z aeth: One easy thing to do in an upcoming spec would be to bump the minimums. Some docstrings are probably non-portable because array-total-size-limit (the maximum size of an array, including a string) has a minimum at 1024
2018-05-22T20:08:31Z aeth: Probably the way to do it would be to define minimums for 32-bit implementations and minimums for 64-bit implementations, and a way to detect which minimum the implementation is following.
2018-05-22T20:09:16Z White_Flame: one would think that a way to detect the limits would be... array-total-size-limit
2018-05-22T20:09:38Z White_Flame: not sure detecting the minimum would be super useful
2018-05-22T20:09:40Z aeth: A harder, but related, thing would be to *lower* a minimum. short-float cannot be IEEE half-precision floating point. The minimum precision is too high (13 instead of 11).
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2018-05-22T20:11:24Z aeth: long float is probably still too uncommon to specify concretely. Do people want it to be quad float? 80-bit extended-precision? arbitrary precision?
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2018-05-22T20:11:40Z aeth: or just double?
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2018-05-22T20:12:29Z aeth: (I'm sure some people's code would break if SBCL added a long-float because pi is long-float, not double-float!)
2018-05-22T20:12:51Z White_Flame: we need infinite-float for pi
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2018-05-22T20:14:41Z Xach: The new power supply in the quicklisp build hardware did not help :(
2018-05-22T20:15:50Z White_Flame: it would be nice to compile all the complaints people have about the current lisp spec
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2018-05-22T20:16:05Z White_Flame: obviously there are issues raised & recorded in the spec itself
2018-05-22T20:16:16Z White_Flame: but there's been 30+ years of history since then
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2018-05-22T20:18:09Z dlowe: That's kinda what the CDR was supposed to be.
2018-05-22T20:18:12Z aeth: Characters (we can be more specific these days), paths (same thing), type system, more sequences (extensible sequences?), threads, maybe networking, possibly typed arrays/hash-tables/lists/etc. (lists are the only trivial one to implement yourself, but even then only your code would know your way)
2018-05-22T20:18:23Z dlowe: all you have to do is get implementations to follow it and you win
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2018-05-22T20:20:07Z aeth: Oh, and various functional programming things that you could technically do by writing a language in Lisp that compiles to Lisp and isn't compatible with anything anyone else uses either.
2018-05-22T20:21:13Z aeth: Lisp isn't particularly FP by today's standards even though it was by the standards of 25+ years ago.
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2018-05-22T20:23:09Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: lots of things in the standard are macros though
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2018-05-22T20:25:01Z aeth: jmercouris: If the standard were written today, dotimes wouldn't make it
2018-05-22T20:25:04Z jackdaniel: you miss the point, but I'm too busy with talking on #lisp-secret-room to explain myself :p time for sleep, good night
2018-05-22T20:25:30Z edgar-rft: let's include in the new standard infinite hardware power for Xach
2018-05-22T20:25:43Z aeth: Make Quicklisp part of the standard!
2018-05-22T20:26:00Z White_Flame: should a new CL deprecate symbol property lists?
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2018-05-22T20:26:28Z aeth: Considering a new standard would be a once-every-30-year event, I don't think deprecation would mean much
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2018-05-22T20:26:42Z White_Flame: fine, then should it eliminate them? ;)
2018-05-22T20:27:04Z aeth: Can't remove anything, not even the currently-deprecated stuff, since people used them assuming they wouldn't be removed
2018-05-22T20:27:08Z White_Flame: I've only ever seen them used in ancient lisp code
2018-05-22T20:27:13Z edgar-rft is deprecated since birth
2018-05-22T20:27:50Z aeth: I've only seen prog in ancient lisp code but someone probably generates it with a macro somewhere in Quicklisp instead of using tagbody for some reason.
2018-05-22T20:31:31Z mfiano: I'd be happy with just threads, Unicode, PLN, and extensible sequences being added
2018-05-22T20:32:04Z White_Flame: PLN?
2018-05-22T20:32:11Z mfiano: package-local nicknames
2018-05-22T20:32:12Z White_Flame: oh, package local nicknames?  yeah
2018-05-22T20:32:19Z aeth: White_Flame: symbol-plist is in the book. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-lists-other-uses-for-cons-cells.html
2018-05-22T20:32:33Z aeth: it thus cannot be removed
2018-05-22T20:33:02Z aeth: mfiano: definitely unicode because there isn't even (afaik) a major unicode portability library
2018-05-22T20:34:41Z mfiano: PLN is the big one in my opinion. As the CL ecosystem grows, and in certain cases where it makes sense to have short package names/nicknames, transitive dependencies colliding out of a user's control except only their choice of direct dependencies is a huge problem.
2018-05-22T20:34:51Z White_Flame: yeah, I fully agree
2018-05-22T20:35:13Z White_Flame: the flat package namespace isn't scalable
2018-05-22T20:35:32Z aeth: White_Flame: The solution is... metapackages
2018-05-22T20:35:34Z aeth: Packages for packages.
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2018-05-22T20:36:25Z White_Flame: well, with PLN, in theory nesting comes for free
2018-05-22T20:36:37Z White_Flame: as long as reader syntax is extended to support it
2018-05-22T20:37:06Z White_Flame: not actually technically nesting, but traversal along locally named links
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2018-05-22T20:37:51Z aeth: Oh, forcing specific optimizations would be nice. (declare (optimize (tco t))) and if the compiler recognizes tco it's enabled.
2018-05-22T20:38:04Z aeth: I have a feeling that a lot of people want that. Just for TCO.
2018-05-22T20:38:27Z aeth: You'd probably need some extra debug thing to override it, though.
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2018-05-22T20:38:39Z White_Flame: yeah, I've fiddled with SBCL internals to enable it while debug & safety are high, so the stack doesn't blow during testing
2018-05-22T20:39:16Z mfiano: defpackage-plus has in my opinion a very bad hack to support package-local nicknames in a way that gracefully falls back to global nicknames if an implementation doesn't support it. This is very wrong. At best, which an implementation supports them, you have non-portable code. At worst, you silently have global nicknames. It's not a "pure" solution.
2018-05-22T20:39:50Z mfiano: s/non-portable/non-conforming/
2018-05-22T20:42:08Z aeth: Oh, I almost forgot. The next CL standard should sneak in a full implementation of Prolog as well. Put it in an appendix as a mandatory thing. Or maybe a long footnote.
2018-05-22T20:42:23Z mfiano: I consider that worse than just using global nicknames, because you don't know how it will behave from a user standpoint.
2018-05-22T20:42:49Z nirved: isn't it easier to put a layer on top of CL instead of redefining the language?
2018-05-22T20:43:09Z mfiano: You just described every implementation
2018-05-22T20:43:22Z aeth: nirved: I'm trying to specifically talk about things where a layer wouldn't be too useful.
2018-05-22T20:43:46Z aeth: You can implement anything in any turing complete language, but not necessarily efficiently.
2018-05-22T20:45:04Z nirved: imo implementing a custom language on top of CL is quite easy and efficient
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2018-05-22T20:46:57Z aeth: yes, the Prolog was a joke, but actually apparently there are some things an implementation must do in order to coexist with Prolog. iirc dmiles was talking about that a while ago
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2018-05-22T20:47:33Z aeth: the latter would be more of an idea to specify as an extension or something, not actually all of Prolog
2018-05-22T20:48:29Z aeth: Perhaps the future of a CL environment is as a runtime for many languages. Then there'd be lots of interesting things that could be added.
2018-05-22T20:48:35Z nirved: if necessary CL can spit out machine code as well, and with CL writing a compiler is relatively easy
2018-05-22T20:51:09Z White_Flame: nirved: that would be more in the realm of creating a new language separate from CL, not necessarily modifying/extending CL itself
2018-05-22T20:51:35Z White_Flame: as at that level, you're working with individual implementation specifics, not anything CL-specified
2018-05-22T20:51:52Z aeth: nirved: afaik the define-vop thing is just SBCL
2018-05-22T20:52:12Z aeth: But there are already lots of constructs in CL that don't really make sense to directly use, like tagbody
2018-05-22T20:52:43Z White_Flame: and if CL wants to be a modern runtime, it really needs feedback-based recompilation in my opinion
2018-05-22T20:52:43Z aeth: Lisp is a language for languages.
2018-05-22T20:52:52Z aeth: White_Flame: you might be able to do that
2018-05-22T20:53:16Z White_Flame: yes, a new CL implementation could do that and stay in spec
2018-05-22T20:53:22Z White_Flame: just nothing has done so so far
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2018-05-22T20:53:28Z aeth: You might be able to get enough meaningful feedback in a DSL to recompile those DSL functions at runtime, if that's what you mean.
2018-05-22T20:53:40Z aeth: Obviously not CL itself, though
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2018-05-22T20:54:59Z White_Flame: I mean CL itself
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2018-05-22T20:55:11Z aeth: It would be interesting to do that only for generics
2018-05-22T20:55:41Z White_Flame: right, that sort of architecture would allow making the base langauge more generic, while still finding location-specific speed decisions
2018-05-22T20:55:58Z White_Flame: and "generics" also include things like #'+
2018-05-22T20:56:13Z White_Flame: and sequence operations
2018-05-22T20:56:24Z aeth: not sure how you'd do this without first (1) making the MOP standard and then (2) also making what you're talking about standard
2018-05-22T20:56:37Z aeth: Sequence and numeric generics are... special
2018-05-22T20:56:48Z White_Flame: it would have to be a fully new implementation
2018-05-22T20:57:22Z mfiano: Sounds like Julia
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2018-05-22T20:58:33Z aeth: It would be nice if something like specialization-store wasn't necessary for when you wanted generics for e.g. (simple-array single-float (3))s
2018-05-22T20:59:13Z jmercouris: White_Flame: what is feedback based recompilation?
2018-05-22T20:59:44Z White_Flame: it's how the JVM and javascript can run code so fast
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2018-05-22T21:00:01Z jmercouris: yeah, but what is it?
2018-05-22T21:00:01Z White_Flame: track how many times various types run through the code paths
2018-05-22T21:00:07Z jmercouris: Oh I see
2018-05-22T21:00:15Z jmercouris: and then so like "run-time" optimization?
2018-05-22T21:00:18Z White_Flame: recompile your code to inline the type decisions that actually occurred the most
2018-05-22T21:00:29Z jmercouris: sounds extremely complex
2018-05-22T21:00:31Z White_Flame: including the ability to inline virtual function calls
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2018-05-22T21:01:32Z White_Flame: for instance, (mapc (lambda (x) ...) list) is unrolled in SBCL to a plain loop, instead of literally calling that function every iteration
2018-05-22T21:01:38Z White_Flame: because that's all known at compile time
2018-05-22T21:02:00Z White_Flame: but (mapc #'some-other-function list) couldn't be inlined, because that function might be redefined, or be passed in as a variable, or whatever
2018-05-22T21:02:19Z White_Flame: in theory, if the code notices that the same function is always given to that mapc, it could be recompiled to a loop with that function inlined
2018-05-22T21:02:41Z jmercouris: but could you depend on that?
2018-05-22T21:02:56Z jmercouris: you just said it above yourself
2018-05-22T21:02:59Z jmercouris: that function might be redfined
2018-05-22T21:03:00Z White_Flame: such languages tend to have a "warm up" period
2018-05-22T21:03:12Z White_Flame: as the system discovers where it's slow and tries to work on those places
2018-05-22T21:03:17Z White_Flame: s/languages/environments/
2018-05-22T21:03:41Z White_Flame: the functionality should be maintained throughout its optimization; only the speed should be affected
2018-05-22T21:03:45Z White_Flame: (else it's a bug)
2018-05-22T21:04:37Z White_Flame: also, if the invariant that was optimized is violate (ie, you pass in a different function than what was inlined) then it either undoes that optimization or run a separate fallback "slow path" for the more generic case
2018-05-22T21:04:43Z White_Flame: *violated
2018-05-22T21:05:38Z White_Flame: you can see how it would increase the speed of math operations, and do things like flip from baked-in fixnum to bignum processing automagically
2018-05-22T21:05:59Z White_Flame: without declaring any types ahead of time
2018-05-22T21:06:23Z White_Flame: I'm not a fan of Java, and only somewhat of JavaScript, but man I respect the tech they've put in those VMs
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2018-05-22T21:35:26Z comborico1611: I just learned what setf stands for.
2018-05-22T21:38:41Z comborico1611: Why is "form" also used, and not just "expression".  "Expression" does predate "form", correct?
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2018-05-22T21:41:14Z White_Flame: (setf (car foo) 3)
2018-05-22T21:41:43Z White_Flame: it doesn't evaluate (car foo) first as an expression, it dispatches on the form (car ???)
2018-05-22T21:42:11Z White_Flame: if foo was (1 . 2), then evaluating the experession would yield (setf 1 3) which doesn't make sense
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2018-05-22T21:52:24Z aeth: I want a lisp where (setf 1 3) makes sense.
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2018-05-22T21:57:04Z __rumbler31: do you really?
2018-05-22T21:58:27Z White_Flame: some languages actually allow you to redefine numbers
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2018-05-22T22:48:59Z nowhere_man: aeth: beware what you wish for! :-)
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2018-05-22T22:57:54Z edgar-rft: aeth: I want a life that makes sense
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2018-05-22T23:05:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: be like david byrne! stop making sense!
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2018-05-22T23:05:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: White_Flame: setf doesn't evaluate its first argument.
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2018-05-22T23:09:13Z Bike: that is what white flame said
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2018-05-22T23:17:13Z edgar-rft: comborico1611, the best explanation of Lisp forms vs. s-expressions I found so far is <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2877371/definition-of-lisp-form>
2018-05-22T23:18:07Z edgar-rft: In short, Lisp forms can also be self-evaluating atoms like numbers, strings, arrays, etc.
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2018-05-22T23:21:48Z comborico1611: edgar-rft: Much obliged!
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2018-05-23T03:43:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-23T04:20:40Z beach: Did other people here get email from Concordia University about API-breaking changes?
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2018-05-23T04:33:58Z loke: beach: Changes to what?
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2018-05-23T04:41:59Z jeosol: Morning beach
2018-05-23T04:42:13Z jeosol: Didn't get email
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2018-05-23T05:01:19Z beach: It was for people who have GitHub repositories.  They are doing a survey on how API-breaking changes impact the work, and on to what degree those people introduce API-breaking changes.
2018-05-23T05:01:40Z beach: I took the survey because it was an opportunity to mention Common Lisp.
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2018-05-23T05:12:36Z loke: beach: I have lots of such repositories and I got no such email.
2018-05-23T05:12:49Z beach: OK.  Strange.
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2018-05-23T05:17:37Z jackdaniel:  I didn't receive such email too
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2018-05-23T05:30:04Z rme: I've received messages like that before (where someone is doing research based on GitHub repositories);  I am afraid that I tend to ignore them.
2018-05-23T05:30:40Z beach: I do too.  But this was an opportunity to mention that 1. I use Common Lisp and 2. There are very few problems of this type with Common Lisp.
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2018-05-23T05:35:46Z loke: OK, I have the seirdest behaviur
2018-05-23T05:36:09Z loke: all of a sudden the SLIME Debugger starts displaying all symbols in lower case.
2018-05-23T05:36:32Z loke: The REPL still behaves normally.
2018-05-23T05:36:54Z loke: What could have happened? (it is triggered some time after loading one of the McCLIM files and an error happens)
2018-05-23T05:37:16Z beach: The readtable case might have changed.
2018-05-23T05:37:39Z loke: beach: Right, but which one? The one in my REPL (both SLIME repl and *inferior-lisp*) are still normal.
2018-05-23T05:37:51Z loke: Does the SLIME debugger have its own readtable?
2018-05-23T05:38:13Z beach: Don't know.  Sorry.
2018-05-23T05:38:23Z loke: Thanks anyway :-)
2018-05-23T05:38:44Z loke: It's not really a problem, I actually prefer lower case. It's just unsettling that I have no idea why it happens.
2018-05-23T05:39:39Z loke: aaaah. wait a second. It only happens for stack traces generated from the CLIM Command Reader.
2018-05-23T05:39:59Z loke: So I'd guess somewhere in there, *READTABLE-CASE* is dynamically rebound.
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2018-05-23T07:04:23Z shrdlu68: Hey, I'm reading online and some guy says that Lisp has two fundamental features: 1. Programs and data being the same 2. nil eq () eq false.
2018-05-23T07:05:10Z shrdlu68: He says without either of these, a language is not a lisp. In what qay is 2. a fundamental lisp feature?
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2018-05-23T07:06:26Z schweers: shrdlu68: maybe in order to disqualify scheme from being a lisp?
2018-05-23T07:07:12Z shrdlu68: schweers: Yes he does say "Scheme screwed up when the broke"
2018-05-23T07:07:15Z shrdlu68: the second feature."
2018-05-23T07:07:47Z schweers: I like nil punning and the like, but I don’t think it’s /that/ essential.  But hey, maybe
2018-05-23T07:07:54Z schweers: I’m missing something.
2018-05-23T07:08:12Z shrdlu68: Yeah, I don't get why he considers 2. a defining feature of lisp.
2018-05-23T07:08:45Z schweers: where did you get this from?  do you have a link handy?
2018-05-23T07:09:39Z flip214: shrdlu68: having one, and only one false value is a really welcome fact about CL.
2018-05-23T07:09:51Z flip214: like the integer 0 in C.
2018-05-23T07:10:00Z shrdlu68: schweers: In the comments here: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.co.ke/2008/02/ooh-ooh-my-turn-why-lisp.html
2018-05-23T07:10:04Z flip214: (with various names like FALSE, false, NULL)
2018-05-23T07:10:45Z flip214: consider all the problems with eg python, perl, etc, where you have multiple "false"s: "", "0", false, 0, []
2018-05-23T07:11:13Z schweers: flip214: it is a nice feature, but I don’t think that it is necessary to be a lisp
2018-05-23T07:11:31Z schweers: although I’m not so sure anymore if I regard scheme to be a lisp, albeit for different reasons.
2018-05-23T07:11:53Z flip214: schweers: well, python is called "a lisp without the parenthesis" - I don't understand why. so how many parts of lisp are needed to _get_ a lisp?
2018-05-23T07:12:08Z schweers: python does not have data as code
2018-05-23T07:12:39Z schweers: as far as I know, only false and None are non-true in python.  Am I wrong?  (Not that it matters)
2018-05-23T07:13:41Z flip214: $ python -c 'print bool(1), bool(0), bool("")'
2018-05-23T07:13:41Z flip214: True False False
2018-05-23T07:13:54Z schweers: oh.  I stand corrected then
2018-05-23T07:14:17Z flip214: that's 2.7.15, though... perhaps python 4 changes all that again?!
2018-05-23T07:14:52Z ecraven: at least it's the same in python2 and python3
2018-05-23T07:15:31Z schweers: ugh, I hate python.  this indentation stuff really is stupid.  And not for the reason most python newbies have.
2018-05-23T07:15:37Z schweers: python 4?
2018-05-23T07:15:51Z flip214: just hyperbole
2018-05-23T07:15:54Z schweers: I really have not been paying attention to python.  I was to busy using lisp
2018-05-23T07:16:10Z schweers: k, but still.  The fact that I couldn’t tell says it all :D
2018-05-23T07:17:08Z beach: shrdlu68: There is no widespread agreement about the definition of "Lisp".  That's why this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is well defined.
2018-05-23T07:17:31Z schweers: and python is no not Common lisp :-P
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2018-05-23T07:18:29Z shrdlu68: beach: Ah, so there's no way to validate this gentleman's claim, there being no standard definition.
2018-05-23T07:18:47Z beach: shrdlu68: Correct.  So it depends on the person's agenda.
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2018-05-23T07:19:21Z schweers: s/no/so/
2018-05-23T07:19:26Z beach: Therefore it leads to pointless discussions, since every person has his or her prerequisites for some language being "a Lisp".
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2018-05-23T07:27:56Z phoe: somewhat related, http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
2018-05-23T07:29:26Z schweers: I actually like most of his writings, but I have to say, what he says about lisp not being an acceptable lisp ... does not seem to be true to me.  Just the other day, I thought that this constant talk, that Common Lisp is supposedly some ugly beast ... I don’t get it, and it has stopped me from getting earnest with Common Lisp earlier in my life.
2018-05-23T07:30:12Z flip214: schweers: some details show their age... like CDR and CAR.
2018-05-23T07:30:48Z schweers: I don’t get what’s so bad about having CAR and CDR, especially given that there is also FIRST and REST.
2018-05-23T07:31:05Z schweers: I use all of them, depending on the context of how I’m using the cons in question.
2018-05-23T07:33:01Z loli: car and cdr are nice if one doesn't match away all their problems
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2018-05-23T07:34:36Z flip214: schweers: they are _not_ bad. they just show Lisp's age.
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2018-05-23T07:35:37Z flip214: for some more criticism, see also CL21. For example, the argument order differs between AREF and PUSH - container first resp. last argument.
2018-05-23T07:35:39Z schweers: okay, then I may have misunderstood you, but my question is still: how is CL so ugly as some people claim?  I just don’t see it.  Yes, you can write horrendous code in a lisp which uses cons cells as its only data-structure, but that style of programming is not tied to lisp.
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2018-05-23T07:36:02Z flip214: schweers: "some" people just don't get over the parenthesis, I guess.
2018-05-23T07:36:23Z schweers: okay, now that is something I understand, but still doesn’t disqualify it, especially given that I can see the signature at the bottom of the screen.
2018-05-23T07:36:35Z flip214: If you use a Lisp for longer, then you don't mind them any more (or even welcome them) - but then you get to see other parts that are not that nice.
2018-05-23T07:36:59Z flip214: schweers: the function signature in the UI is just a kind of workaround.
2018-05-23T07:37:03Z schweers: yes, but these “some” people are not those I’m concerned about at the moment.  I’m talking about the people who think that LISP is a great idea, but that all current lisps suck
2018-05-23T07:37:34Z schweers: flip214: I don’t see that as a workaround.  I want that, no matter how well the standard library is designed.
2018-05-23T07:37:37Z flip214: PHP is famous for all the inconsistencies re argument order - so why should be just say "I _LIKE_ that inconsistencies!" when it comes to CL?
2018-05-23T07:38:08Z flip214: schweers: true. I like these hints too!
2018-05-23T07:38:21Z schweers: I didn’t say I /like/ them, just that a few inconsistencies in the standard library are not bad enough for me to say that CL as a whole is ugly.
2018-05-23T07:38:31Z schweers: Especially given that I can fix that if I really care.
2018-05-23T07:38:34Z shrdlu68: schweers: I don't see any unpleasantness at all either, in fact I find the uniformity, symmetry, and simplicity very endearing, but I guess it may not seem so at first.
2018-05-23T07:38:55Z flip214: well, I didn't say that CL is ugly - just that there are not-so-fine parts in that town ;)
2018-05-23T07:39:12Z flip214: schweers: fixing that is what CL21 is all about.
2018-05-23T07:39:13Z schweers: I know that you didn’t say that, just that other people might say that.
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2018-05-23T07:40:16Z schweers: hmmm ... package local nicknames ... that is indeed something I miss in lisp.  At least, if they mean the same thing as I do.
2018-05-23T07:41:09Z flip214: there's a library for that ;)
2018-05-23T07:41:17Z jack_rabbit: Are there any libraries you guys know about with implementations of interesting data structures?
2018-05-23T07:41:18Z flip214: (for some implementations, at least)
2018-05-23T07:41:35Z flip214: jack_rabbit: https://cliki.net/Data%20structure
2018-05-23T07:41:37Z loli: jack_rabbit: fset is nice
2018-05-23T07:41:38Z shka: jack_rabbit: mine!
2018-05-23T07:41:48Z loli: jack_rabbit: I've also implemented a finger tree in CL if you care to read that
2018-05-23T07:41:50Z shka: but yeah, fset is cool
2018-05-23T07:41:58Z loli: never polished it enough to upload it to quicklisp
2018-05-23T07:42:05Z jack_rabbit: Sweet. :)
2018-05-23T07:42:12Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
2018-05-23T07:42:32Z shka: rrb style vector, hamt style hash table, something like M-tree as well
2018-05-23T07:42:37Z jack_rabbit: I built a lazily sorted sequence. I was wondering what others have done. :)
2018-05-23T07:42:50Z loli: as for my shilling
2018-05-23T07:42:52Z loli: https://github.com/mariari/Misc-Lisp-Scripts/blob/master/data-structures/finger-trees.lisp
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2018-05-23T07:43:11Z shka: btw, I accept contributions :P
2018-05-23T07:43:18Z loli: it's fun to steal structures from purely functional datastructures
2018-05-23T07:43:35Z loli: shka: I might take you up on that some time
2018-05-23T07:43:53Z shka: cool,
2018-05-23T07:44:02Z shka: cl-data-structures is kinda cool
2018-05-23T07:44:17Z shka: rough edges and poor documentation, though
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2018-05-23T07:44:31Z loli: is this the library with interface style passing?
2018-05-23T07:44:37Z schweers: okay, I think there may be another thing some people find ugly:  that not all sequence functions work on all sequence types.  For instance the map family of functions, nth vs elt vs aref, etc.
2018-05-23T07:44:43Z loli: I tried using that one, but it was very underdocumented, so I put it on hold
2018-05-23T07:44:51Z jack_rabbit: shka, is this something you'd be interested in? https://github.com/knusbaum/cl-sort-seq
2018-05-23T07:45:24Z shka: but it has proper ranges and some higher order functions
2018-05-23T07:46:52Z shka: so you can write stuff like this if you want: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/1a5b837593d9f35cf677b45e7ae08822c9092736/src/dicts/hamt/range-test.lisp#L56
2018-05-23T07:47:17Z shka: loli: i gave up on LIL
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2018-05-23T07:47:23Z loli: laziness and dynamic variables can interact in odd ways
2018-05-23T07:47:33Z shka: but it gave me some ideas
2018-05-23T07:47:55Z loli: it's a neat idea
2018-05-23T07:48:23Z shka: jack_rabbit: not sure
2018-05-23T07:48:40Z loli: it would be nice to get more generic functions, outside of creating defgenerics, and then implementing them on ones struct
2018-05-23T07:49:15Z shka: yeah, i guess
2018-05-23T07:50:07Z shka: but honestly, i figured that what i really need is just protocol for performing modifications of data structures and separate protocol to perform iteration
2018-05-23T07:50:08Z flip214: schweers: true
2018-05-23T07:51:05Z shka: composing data structures is cool for sure, but not that useful
2018-05-23T07:51:32Z shka: so i just went with those two things
2018-05-23T07:52:22Z shka: besides: i think that i may have proper composition in the near future
2018-05-23T07:53:24Z shka: i need to stop adding features, and start writing better docs anyway...
2018-05-23T07:53:35Z shka: because the state of docs is not optimal
2018-05-23T07:53:46Z shka: not even close
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2018-05-23T07:57:21Z loli: I see your library has a HAMT, is there a vector/array specialization of it in your library.
2018-05-23T07:57:37Z loli: An array/vector is one of the few structures I haven't found a functional counterpart in CL yet
2018-05-23T07:57:45Z loli: well found or have made
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2018-05-23T08:00:43Z shka: loli: yup
2018-05-23T08:00:49Z shka: i have RRB vector
2018-05-23T08:02:37Z loli: perfect, next time I need a vector, I'll grab this library
2018-05-23T08:02:40Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/sequences/rrb/tests.lisp
2018-05-23T08:02:46Z shka: it MAY be buggy
2018-05-23T08:02:53Z loli: in what way?
2018-05-23T08:03:00Z shka: in the wrong way :-)
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2018-05-23T08:03:20Z shka: i tested HAMT well, but RRB not so
2018-05-23T08:04:12Z shka: so it is for brave people ;-)
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2018-05-23T08:06:24Z shka: loli: but worry not, i may fix your issues rather quickly ;-)
2018-05-23T08:07:10Z loli: okay, sweet, It'll probably be a few months until I reach out for some common lisp. it seems I might be using clojure for the next little while
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2018-05-23T08:08:56Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2018-05-23T08:11:20Z schweers: does anyone have any experience with calling lisp from C in sbcl?
2018-05-23T08:11:38Z shka: schweers: yes
2018-05-23T08:11:50Z shka: schweers: nothing fancy, really
2018-05-23T08:11:52Z schweers: how did it go?  the manual is not exactly reassuring
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2018-05-23T08:12:16Z shka: well, you define callback, and inject it into C
2018-05-23T08:12:35Z schweers: Did you use CFFI?
2018-05-23T08:12:51Z beach: I strongly recommend that people program in Common Lisp, rather than in C.
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2018-05-23T08:13:14Z schweers: beach: I prefer using lisp, obviously, but sometimes you have to use a C library and pass in a function
2018-05-23T08:13:30Z shka: schweers: yes
2018-05-23T08:13:43Z beach: schweers: "have to".  I doubt it.
2018-05-23T08:13:44Z shka: give me a second, i may find you any example
2018-05-23T08:13:52Z schweers: Also, that’s the reason I asked: I’d rather write my code in lisp and pass it to C, than to write in C directly
2018-05-23T08:13:58Z beach: It is just a matter of how much work and what kind of work you are willing to put in.
2018-05-23T08:14:22Z schweers: true
2018-05-23T08:14:35Z schweers: and how much work one is willing to duplicate
2018-05-23T08:14:42Z shka: schweers: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html
2018-05-23T08:15:12Z shka: so th etrick is to pass (callback easy-write) into your C
2018-05-23T08:15:16Z beach: schweers: yes, but look, this is freenode.  We are into free software.  When you "duplicate" some existing C code in Common Lisp, you make it safer, and more available to other Lispers.
2018-05-23T08:16:14Z shka: anyway: simple in concept but interacting with other languages is always PITA
2018-05-23T08:16:36Z beach: Of course.  The semantics can be very different from one language to another.
2018-05-23T08:16:40Z ZombieChicken: I doubt it will always be 'safer'. Well-tested encryption algorithms in C would be preferable to a relatively untested version in CL
2018-05-23T08:16:55Z schweers: beach: I’m not sure how things will turn out exactly, but I might need a library callable from lisp and other languages, possibly gauche scheme (written in C, can call C functions)
2018-05-23T08:17:48Z beach: ZombieChicken: So you are saying, we should just throw in the towel for every case, and abandon the goal of writing Common Lisp code?
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2018-05-23T08:18:20Z ZombieChicken: Ah, troll. Got ya
2018-05-23T08:19:15Z shka: ZombieChicken: beach is not a troll
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2018-05-23T08:19:43Z shka: schweers: writing bindings sucks for everything that was not designed explicitly to support bindings
2018-05-23T08:20:04Z ZombieChicken: Hard to believe that when they make such a sweeping generalization
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2018-05-23T08:20:23Z beach: ZombieChicken: I am genuinely concerned about the way software is produced today.  I think many people, including most of the industry, is doing the wrong thing, wasting a lot of effort using the wrong language, and producing unreliable code.
2018-05-23T08:20:36Z beach: s/is/are/
2018-05-23T08:20:49Z ecraven: beach: many would agree with you, but start arguing on what actually *is* the right language
2018-05-23T08:20:55Z shka: for instance, zeromq is ok because of simple api
2018-05-23T08:21:07Z edgar-rft: We could write a new earth in Commom Lisp, we'd only be willing to invest 4.5 billion years of work.
2018-05-23T08:21:13Z loke: shka: But at the saem time, zeomq is kinda toss
2018-05-23T08:21:28Z loke: shka: Before long, you'll fiond yourself looking for something better.
2018-05-23T08:21:49Z loke: Thankfully, RabbitMQ exists, and it's very good, and arguably written in a safe, acceptable language
2018-05-23T08:22:03Z beach: ecraven: I am totally convinced that Common Lisp, while perhaps not THE RIGHT language (especially not for EVERY situation), is a huge step in the right direction compared to most commonly used languages.  And that includes using C or C++ for applications.
2018-05-23T08:22:18Z shrdlu68: beach: For an industry/profession/trade that automates things, we're doing a poor job of automating ourselves away. That, for me, is the first sign that something is wrong with the way software is produced today.
2018-05-23T08:22:32Z loke: beach: I would suspect that you are also in favour of Erlang?
2018-05-23T08:22:34Z beach: shrdlu68: I can't agree more.
2018-05-23T08:22:54Z ecraven: not disputing this, just saying that *that* is where people'so opinions probably differ ;)
2018-05-23T08:22:56Z schweers: beach: I share your sentiment, and in general agree with what you told me earlier, that I should rather be writing in lisp than in C.  That being said, I may be forced to have parts of the code in a way that accepts a C function.  I hope I can avoid this, but I wanted to know the state of things beforehand.
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2018-05-23T08:23:02Z beach: loke: Sure.  Not that I know it, but it seems adapted to some cases.
2018-05-23T08:23:31Z loke: beach: I've used it a bit (mostly using Elixir), and it does have many of the same benefits as Lisp.
2018-05-23T08:23:34Z ZombieChicken: beach: Perhaps, but there are practical concerns in the mean time. I'd rather see someone call known good C in some cases (mainly encryption) than reimplement the code in CL and potentially break something important. Of course, this doesn't apply to people who do know how to write such code and verify that it is indeed right.
2018-05-23T08:23:48Z shka: loke: you can build better things with zeromq
2018-05-23T08:23:56Z shka: it is just low level
2018-05-23T08:23:56Z loke: shka: I tried. I had to give up.
2018-05-23T08:24:04Z loke: I went to Rabbit and haven't looked back.
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2018-05-23T08:24:15Z beach: schweers: I understand.  Though I am always skeptical when it comes to phrases such as "have to", or "forced to".  It is a choice after all.  In fact it's a choice to even write software in the first place.
2018-05-23T08:24:28Z shrdlu68: ZombieChicken: No such persons exist.
2018-05-23T08:24:37Z shka: loke: well, if it works, it works
2018-05-23T08:24:44Z shka: personally, i really like zmq
2018-05-23T08:25:10Z shrdlu68: It's a myth - an illusion -  that there are some wizards out there who know how to implement crypto correctly.
2018-05-23T08:25:45Z loke: shka: I'm curious as to what your use case is? For me, as soon as I wanted to do anything beyond the absolute simplest use-case where I was sending simple messages from one place to another, it simply wasn't able to provide the necessary functionality.
2018-05-23T08:25:51Z jdz: cyber is hard.
2018-05-23T08:26:08Z loke cyber jdz
2018-05-23T08:26:18Z beach: ZombieChicken: Sure.  I am merely pointing out that we are in #lisp and that I feel that I should encourage people to put in a little extra effort so that we can increase the collectively available amount of Common Lisp code, rather than to solve their own problem that is much harder to share.
2018-05-23T08:27:30Z loke: beach: You have no idea how many poeople in the Maxima community have adviced me to “just use qxmaxima” or “put your effort in jyupiter for Maxima instead”. Luckily, I'm stubborn and refuse. :-)
2018-05-23T08:27:44Z loke: I meant wxmaxima
2018-05-23T08:27:44Z beach: loke: Good!  We agree!
2018-05-23T08:28:02Z loke: beach: In that respect we do :-)
2018-05-23T08:28:17Z schweers: loke: what’s wrong with wxmaxima?
2018-05-23T08:28:17Z beach: ZombieChicken: I am also saddened by the proportion of the traffic in this channel that is dedicated to questions, answers, and discussions about how to use other languages that Common Lisp.
2018-05-23T08:28:31Z beach: s/that/than/
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2018-05-23T08:28:39Z shka: loke: i built distributed system with it, i used zeromq for messeging between machines, monitoring processes and so one
2018-05-23T08:28:41Z loke: beach: At some point I resign myself to the fact that all needed software won't ever be rewritten in Lisp. Hence by choice to use CFFI to call out to Freetype and Harfbuzz. (I know JD doesn't like that)
2018-05-23T08:28:55Z beach: loke: Nor do I.
2018-05-23T08:29:05Z loke: shka: My biggest issue with zeromq was that it has no subscription or selection features.
2018-05-23T08:29:15Z shka: it has?
2018-05-23T08:29:27Z loke: beach: I know, but I have a hard time thinking of an alternative.
2018-05-23T08:29:41Z beach: loke: Fair enough.
2018-05-23T08:30:03Z loke: beach: I think that's as close as we're going to get to the proverbial “I hust/have to use C code”.
2018-05-23T08:30:20Z beach: loke: Maybe propose another project here: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-05-23T08:30:24Z loke: I _technically_ don't need to, but there are no practical alternatives.
2018-05-23T08:30:53Z loke: beach: Possibly.
2018-05-23T08:31:33Z beach: There are often people coming here asking for a project to work on.
2018-05-23T08:31:41Z loke: beach: And at some point I may actually tackle such a project.
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2018-05-23T08:32:05Z loke: beach: I think reimplementing harfbuzz is going to be a very complicated project, and also a very tankless one.
2018-05-23T08:32:08Z loke: thankless
2018-05-23T08:32:15Z beach: Sure.  It would be good to have a mini-spec written down then.
2018-05-23T08:32:30Z beach: I believe you.
2018-05-23T08:32:40Z loke: And freetype is even harder. It's ridiculously complex.
2018-05-23T08:33:00Z ecraven: loke: I'd love to implement harfbuzz, but I don't think a single person can usefully do that :-/
2018-05-23T08:33:15Z beach: loke: Oh?  Even if you ignore their silly hinting language?
2018-05-23T08:33:41Z ecraven: opentype is a very complex specification
2018-05-23T08:33:48Z loke: beach: I don't know how much of the complexity is in the hinting languiage
2018-05-23T08:33:50Z ecraven: lots of embedded state machines and custom "languages"
2018-05-23T08:34:12Z ecraven: also, it has to be rather performant too, there's a lot of hot paths in the font engine
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2018-05-23T08:34:30Z ZombieChicken: Perhaps a silly question, but if it's more complicated than it needs to be, why reimplement it in any language?
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2018-05-23T08:34:47Z shka: loke: i can't find example in acceptable language, but just use pub-sub and setsockopt to subscribe
2018-05-23T08:35:19Z ecraven: ZombieChicken: I don't think it is more complicated than it needs to be, writing systems are just amazingly complex
2018-05-23T08:36:30Z loke: shka: I don't think that's enough... My requirements (what I use in Rabbit, and what made me switch) is that I need to be able to include metadata to messages which are broadcast to various channels. The listeners use selectors to pick messages based this metadata (Rabbit calls them “routing keys”)
2018-05-23T08:36:43Z beach: ecraven: That's the kind of wisdom I make my living questioning.
2018-05-23T08:36:59Z loke: Another thing I need is the ability to have expiring messgaes, that disappear if they are not picked up in a certain amopunt of time.
2018-05-23T08:37:22Z ecraven: beach: I understand that, but writing systems are kind of a hobby of mine, and I really do think that people vastly underestimate the complexity to deal with *any* writing system (not just a few specific ones)
2018-05-23T08:37:27Z shka: loke: well, that's how ZMQ works
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2018-05-23T08:37:42Z shka: as for disappearing messages, i don't think you can do that in ZMQ
2018-05-23T08:37:46Z shka: at least not easily
2018-05-23T08:37:49Z beach: ecraven: I am not sure what you mean by a "writing system".
2018-05-23T08:37:59Z loke: shka: Another feature I use is queue timeouts, where a receiver queue (bound to a broadcast source) times out if a client hasn't touched it in some amouint of time.
2018-05-23T08:38:39Z loke: shka: There is also the concept of a “dead letter” queue where unprocessed messages are routed.
2018-05-23T08:38:41Z ecraven: beach: latin letters, devanagari, kanji/kana, that sort of stuff
2018-05-23T08:38:46Z loke: I don't think any of that exists in zeromq
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2018-05-23T08:39:08Z beach: ecraven: With respect to rendering text in those systems, you mean?
2018-05-23T08:39:09Z loke: shka: Also, transactional support.
2018-05-23T08:39:25Z beach: ecraven: The intrinsic complexity, I mean.
2018-05-23T08:39:32Z shka: loke: so ok: zmq has subscriptions, but as for the rest of the stuff: it is socket library
2018-05-23T08:39:42Z ecraven: beach: yes, converting a sequence of unicode codepoints to an image, in essence
2018-05-23T08:39:51Z shka: so features like those are out of scope
2018-05-23T08:39:56Z beach: ecraven: Got it.
2018-05-23T08:40:07Z loke: shka: Right. That was my point really. I discovered that while it had “MQ” in its name, it's not really a message queue. It's a fancy socket library.
2018-05-23T08:40:27Z loke: I would have much less issue with it if it was called something without mq in the name :-)
2018-05-23T08:40:38Z shka: well, yes
2018-05-23T08:40:46Z shka: but it is a GOOD socket library
2018-05-23T08:40:47Z ecraven: beach: I'm no expert on opentype, but there as a reason for most of the complexity. not saying it couldn't be done better, but it is the de-facto standard font format, it would be hard to replace it
2018-05-23T08:41:00Z ecraven: same for unicode, some very bad decisions were made, but there's no easy way to remedy that
2018-05-23T08:41:08Z loke: shka: didn't the author of it decide to rewrite it or something?
2018-05-23T08:41:22Z shka: i think yes
2018-05-23T08:41:24Z shka: because C++
2018-05-23T08:41:34Z beach: ecraven: I am willing to believe you.
2018-05-23T08:41:46Z loke: C++ is always a good reason for rewriting something. Unfortiunately he went to something that is only marginally batter, no? (C)
2018-05-23T08:41:51Z loke: better
2018-05-23T08:43:15Z shka: well, if you need to expose C bindings, you may as well write in C
2018-05-23T08:43:23Z shka: sadly
2018-05-23T08:43:43Z loke: shka: What's the closest equivalent to zeromq in Lisp?
2018-05-23T08:43:51Z shka: i don't know
2018-05-23T08:44:04Z shka: i would simply use zeromq from lisp
2018-05-23T08:44:14Z shka: though beach would disaprove
2018-05-23T08:44:38Z ZombieChicken: beach: Out of curiosity, what do you think of Prolog?
2018-05-23T08:44:44Z beach: shka: Not many people care what I approve or disapprove of.
2018-05-23T08:44:45Z shka: ZMQ is easy to use from other languages
2018-05-23T08:44:51Z shka: beach: I do :-)
2018-05-23T08:44:55Z loke: shka: for your next project, why don't you give Rabbit a try? If you need anything slightly more capable. It's really a wonderlfy system. :-)
2018-05-23T08:44:57Z loke: wonderful
2018-05-23T08:45:10Z loke cares very much what beach cares about.
2018-05-23T08:45:19Z beach: ZombieChicken: Seems like a good fit for some problems.  I have also seen people use it as a general-purpose language, but I am more doubtful about that kind of use.
2018-05-23T08:45:23Z shka: beach: we care because you do
2018-05-23T08:45:32Z loke: I think the main reason I'm working on Climaxima is beach :-)
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2018-05-23T08:45:40Z shka: loke: maybe, right now i'm kinda stuck in the cl-data-structures
2018-05-23T08:45:49Z loke: shka: What is that?
2018-05-23T08:45:52Z beach: That makes 2.  :)  So "not many" is still a valid estimate. :)
2018-05-23T08:46:08Z shka: library for data structers and some semi-random selection of algorithms
2018-05-23T08:46:25Z loke: beach: But we are really important, or something :-)
2018-05-23T08:46:27Z shka: nothing that talks over network
2018-05-23T08:46:34Z beach: loke: Totally!
2018-05-23T08:46:39Z loke: You might know about me. I'm kind of a big deal.
2018-05-23T08:46:46Z beach: Of course.
2018-05-23T08:46:50Z loke: Of course :-)
2018-05-23T08:46:59Z shka: i was thinking about building basic distributed hash-table storage
2018-05-23T08:47:16Z shka: ZMQ is well suited for this, rabbit may be to much
2018-05-23T08:47:44Z loke stares at his rendering of square roopts... That line... Tha aliasing. it makes my eyes hurt.
2018-05-23T08:47:45Z shka: but i am not getting paid for this crap so it will take forever anyway
2018-05-23T08:48:05Z dmiles uses Prolog for general perpose language.. Though many times i'll use it as a glue to FFI
2018-05-23T08:48:12Z loke: I may have to implement that line-join algorithm I found just so that I can make line-drawing use Xrender.
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2018-05-23T08:48:34Z loke: the number of rabbit-holes I've dub myself into...
2018-05-23T08:48:38Z loke: s/dub/dug/
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2018-05-23T08:59:32Z fm4d_: Hello, is there any way to have a string that spans across multiple lines (most programming language supports it via \ etc.) in common lisp? I've only found a way to do it in format control string. Thanks :)
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2018-05-23T09:00:22Z schweers: stupid question: how do you do it in a format string?
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2018-05-23T09:03:29Z loke: fm4d_: Yes. Just press newline in the middle fo a string
2018-05-23T09:03:42Z loke: fm4d_: In Lisp, strings can contain newlines.
2018-05-23T09:05:05Z fm4d_: Sorry, I've forgot to add that I would like that multiline string to be without newlines.
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2018-05-23T09:05:43Z fm4d_: Like if I used "foo" \ "bar" or ("foo" "bar") in python
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2018-05-23T09:06:41Z fm4d_: I can of course concatenate the two strings or remove the newline afterwards, but that feels dirty
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2018-05-23T09:07:16Z loke: fm4d_: I can think of two ways:
2018-05-23T09:07:37Z loke: first way: (concatenate string "first line" "second line")
2018-05-23T09:07:49Z loke: (and newline between thestrings of course)
2018-05-23T09:07:51Z loke: the second way:
2018-05-23T09:07:58Z loke: (format nil "first line%
2018-05-23T09:08:02Z loke: second line")
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2018-05-23T09:08:31Z schweers: you could wrap it around a #. read macro
2018-05-23T09:08:36Z loke: Yes
2018-05-23T09:08:47Z flip214: fm4d_: CL-WHO supports that and other string-niceties
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2018-05-23T09:09:48Z loke: fm4d_: With the FORMAT trick, you can even have space at the beginning of the second line to line things up, FORMAT will strip those off. If you don't like that behaviour you can terminate each line with ~: instead of ~
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2018-05-23T09:10:07Z loke: (I made a typo in my example by the way, the character to use is ~, not %)
2018-05-23T09:10:17Z loke has been doing too much Elisp lately.
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2018-05-23T09:10:41Z ecraven: loke: any idea why elisp chose % instead of ~? doesn't ~ have precedent in earlier lisps?
2018-05-23T09:10:56Z loke: ecraven: Because Elisp's format is more like C's format than CL.
2018-05-23T09:11:00Z loke: Also, Emacs is older than CL.
2018-05-23T09:11:13Z ecraven: loke: I know, but doesn't ~ have precedent in lisps older than CL?
2018-05-23T09:11:22Z loke: That said, Maclisp had FORMAT with pretty much the same syntax as CL and it is contemporary with Emacs.
2018-05-23T09:11:32Z loke: ecraven: ~ comes from FORTRAN, I think.
2018-05-23T09:11:41Z ecraven: ah, never knew that, thanks!
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2018-05-23T09:12:05Z fm4d_: loke thanks, ~ at the end is neat, I will stick to that :)
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2018-05-23T09:12:43Z loke: fm4d_: If you want to be really fancy, you could create a reader macro to provide custom syntax for that. :-)
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2018-05-23T09:15:44Z fm4d_: For now I am happy to be able to solve some real world problems in clisp without constantly searching in books and frantically googling :D
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2018-05-23T09:16:07Z loke: fm4d_: It's a great feeling when you reach that point.
2018-05-23T09:16:17Z loke: After that things tend to be smooth :-)
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2018-05-23T09:30:35Z ym: Hi. How do I send Elisp code from slime to Emacs? Like with M-:, but with slime/swank.
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2018-05-23T09:32:50Z loke: ym: you want to type CL code in emacs and have it run in the CL? Or you want to run a CL comamnd from within Lisp and have it pass Emlisp code for execution in Emacs?
2018-05-23T09:35:25Z ym: Second.
2018-05-23T09:35:49Z ecraven: I don't think there's a message for that
2018-05-23T09:36:47Z ecraven: look in contrib/slime-repl.el, around line 1710 (defun slime-repl-event-hook-function ..)
2018-05-23T09:36:59Z ecraven: I *think* that is what you can send to slime from swank
2018-05-23T09:39:01Z ym: I want to use emacs as UI-frontend to my CL program, but everything points me out that it isn't the way.
2018-05-23T09:39:14Z ym: Will probably look at climacs.
2018-05-23T09:39:17Z ym: Thanks
2018-05-23T09:40:20Z ecraven: ym: you can do that without using slime
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2018-05-23T09:40:39Z ecraven: just pass s-expressions back and forth, like notmuch does, for example
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2018-05-23T09:58:47Z ym: Like slime does.
2018-05-23T09:58:52Z ym: That's interesting.
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2018-05-23T09:59:35Z shka: you can literally use slime/swank for that
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2018-05-23T09:59:57Z ecraven: shka: depending on what you want to interface with, slime/swank might get in the way more than it helps
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2018-05-23T10:07:05Z shka: there is a project for nvim that allows you to write extensions with lisp code
2018-05-23T10:07:13Z shka: perhaps you can try to look at that
2018-05-23T10:07:19Z shka: because you are doing the same thing
2018-05-23T10:07:22Z shka: just for emacs
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2018-05-23T10:14:44Z ym: I'd be fine with CL-implementation-independent Emacs-frontend, and seems like just digging into slime/swank is exactly what I need. Reading it's docs. Thanks for help.
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2018-05-23T10:31:42Z dim: mm, I just discovered today that in SLIME C-c C-c is more like C-M-x than like C-c C-e, and that I like C-c C-c a lot, when I used to only use C-M-x
2018-05-23T10:34:35Z shka: what C-M-x does?
2018-05-23T10:36:30Z loke: shka: eval-devun I think
2018-05-23T10:36:33Z loke: eval-defun
2018-05-23T10:37:10Z shka: never ever used it
2018-05-23T10:37:57Z loke: ‘slime-eval-defun’ to be precise
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2018-05-23T10:53:52Z dim: shka: C-M-x runs the command slime-eval-defun
2018-05-23T10:54:19Z dim: so about the same as C-c C-c runs the command slime-compile-defun
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2018-05-23T11:06:24Z loke: On SBCL they should be pretty much idental, no?
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2018-05-23T11:11:51Z dim: I guess I just got used to using C-M-x for no reason really
2018-05-23T11:12:33Z dim: I know I prefer C-c C-l to C-c C-k for whole files, in order to avoid having fasl files around, but for defun forms it seems not to do that
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2018-05-23T11:15:01Z dim: oh, C-c C-c annotate the sources, which C-M-x does not
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2018-05-23T12:54:43Z dim: Heap exhausted during garbage collection
2018-05-23T12:55:05Z dim: mmm, not quite there yet with taming SBCL, or rather understanding what parts of the code are consing, I guess
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2018-05-23T13:23:42Z Xof: you could use dougk's new allocation profiler!
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2018-05-23T13:45:32Z dim: that sounds interesting indeed
2018-05-23T13:45:58Z dim: in that case though I think I can use a streaming API instead of packing things in-memory in a batch, with the ZS3 stream support
2018-05-23T13:46:23Z dim: that might improve performances and reduce consing at once
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2018-05-23T13:49:21Z dim: oh no, right, sz3:put-stream doesn't do what I keep thinking it does
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2018-05-23T13:52:22Z dim: the code already does (sb-ext:gc :full t) each time it gets rid of a batch, to hint SBCL
2018-05-23T13:52:29Z dim: is it a good idea to do so?
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2018-05-23T13:54:58Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pg-copy/copy-batch.lisp#L79
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2018-05-23T14:01:26Z shka: dim: usually not...
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2018-05-23T14:02:16Z shka: dim: i can't figure out what can be wrong, but profiler should help
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2018-05-23T14:06:36Z dim: will play with that then, is there a simple doc about how to use it?
2018-05-23T14:06:55Z shka: sbcl manual contains example
2018-05-23T14:07:10Z shka: i am pretty sure you may find blog describing it in detail
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2018-05-23T14:20:33Z Ukari: (defun test (x) (print (multiple-value-list x)))(test (list 1 2 3))
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2018-05-23T14:21:08Z Ukari: is it possible to make `test` print the whole list '(1 2 3)
2018-05-23T14:21:30Z jackdaniel: (defun test (x) (print x))  ;; (test (list 1 2 3))
2018-05-23T14:21:30Z Xach: Ukari: (print x) is one option.
2018-05-23T14:22:08Z Ukari: not the print x, i need multiple-value-list due to a third library
2018-05-23T14:22:50Z Xach: no
2018-05-23T14:23:46Z Ukari: ok..
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2018-05-23T15:16:13Z Ukari: my generator is finished, https://github.com/ukari/cl-generator
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2018-05-23T15:18:42Z warweasle: I got to use lisp at work today. Data processing, slice and dicing.
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2018-05-23T15:20:08Z warweasle: Oh how I've missed the parentheses.
2018-05-23T15:22:08Z Ukari: I am confident about that api design, is anyone try it
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2018-05-23T15:44:00Z oleo: is there an #asdf channel ?
2018-05-23T15:44:01Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-23T15:52:09Z oleo: wow
2018-05-23T15:52:12Z oleo: i got it working
2018-05-23T15:52:17Z oleo: wooohoooooo
2018-05-23T15:52:19Z oleo: lol
2018-05-23T15:52:58Z oleo: (asdf:initialize-output-translations
2018-05-23T15:52:58Z oleo:  `(:output-translations
2018-05-23T15:52:58Z oleo:    #.(let ((wild-subdir
2018-05-23T15:52:58Z oleo:             (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :wild-inferiors)))
2018-05-23T15:52:58Z oleo:            (wild-file
2018-05-23T15:52:59Z oleo:             (make-pathname :name :wild :version :wild :type :wild)))
2018-05-23T15:53:01Z oleo:        `((:root ,wild-subdir ,wild-file)
2018-05-23T15:53:03Z oleo:          (:user-cache ,wild-subdir ,wild-file)))
2018-05-23T15:53:05Z oleo:    :inherit-configuration))
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2018-05-23T15:53:10Z oleo: that did it
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2018-05-23T15:53:22Z oleo: now i can (ql:quickload :maxima-client) and it loads
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2018-05-23T16:08:16Z oleo: loke: and it works
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2018-05-23T16:09:02Z oleo: loke: i just used :plot 2d (expression) sin(x) (variable) x (lower bound) -5 (upper bound) 5 to get a plot
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2018-05-23T16:15:49Z oleo: oh sorry
2018-05-23T16:15:51Z oleo: wrong chan
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2018-05-23T16:23:59Z oleo: just not sure why output-translations are not defined in quicklisp for the local-projects stuff by default....
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2018-05-23T19:18:10Z dim:    1    593   9.8    593   9.8    593   9.8        -  SB-REGALLOC::INIT-SB-VECTORS
2018-05-23T19:18:10Z dim:    2    354   5.8    354   5.8    947  15.6        -  SB-C::MAKE-TN
2018-05-23T19:18:10Z dim:    3    296   4.9    393   6.5   1243  20.5        -  MAKE-HASH-TABLE
2018-05-23T19:19:05Z dim: so 6% of the funcalls saw by the sprof are calls to make-hash-table?
2018-05-23T19:19:24Z aeth: What for?
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2018-05-23T19:20:02Z dim: I don't think I'm doing that :/
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2018-05-23T19:21:50Z Bike: what exactly are you profiling? that looks like it's in the compiler
2018-05-23T19:21:58Z scymtym: dim: are you benchmarking with cold CLOS caches?
2018-05-23T19:22:30Z scymtym: (or PCL caches, technically)
2018-05-23T19:23:14Z dim: Bike: a pgloader run
2018-05-23T19:23:43Z dim: the run includes parsing a command language, which returns a lambda form, that is then compiled
2018-05-23T19:23:49Z dim: and then funcalled
2018-05-23T19:26:06Z _death: maybe try sbcl's evaluator(s)
2018-05-23T19:26:25Z scymtym: if you call COMPILE at runtime, some amount of compiler stuff is going to be in the profile (disregarding what PCL might add)
2018-05-23T19:26:40Z dim: pgloader in that profiled run loaded 121746 rows (36.3 MB) in 2m23.802s, so the compiling shouldn't be leading the profile, that said it's a multi-threaded program, does the profiler knows how to profile multiple threads?
2018-05-23T19:28:23Z dim: retrying with options (:max-samples 10000 :mode :alloc :report :flat :threads :all :reset t), that should help, maybe
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2018-05-23T19:28:49Z scymtym: dim: it samples all running threads by default, iirc
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2018-05-23T19:30:57Z scymtym: dim: if you are adventurous (and your SBCL version is recent enough), you could try https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph/tree/future to get a more nuanced view
2018-05-23T19:31:05Z aeth: (setf *print-case* :downcase) makes the output a lot more readable
2018-05-23T19:33:27Z aeth: I notice a lot of things in sprof not directly related to my program. sb-profile seems a lot more useful
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2018-05-23T19:35:45Z dim: Sampled threads: #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "repl-thread" RUNNING {1004CB0033}>
2018-05-23T19:35:56Z dim: that's not interesting, and it was with :threads :all
2018-05-23T19:37:03Z dim: though I see calls in the trace that don't seem to belong to the pgloader main thread at all, so I'm quite confused
2018-05-23T19:37:21Z dim: yeah it's too confusing for this evening, I'm going to do something else I guess
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2018-05-23T20:13:46Z jeosol: dim: sometimes it pays to leave it for a while and come back, allowing the brain to relax
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2018-05-23T20:19:04Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2018-05-23T20:21:38Z comborico1611: raynold: Yeah, I'm having a decent day, as well.  I think it's because the school children are getting out.
2018-05-23T20:26:06Z raynold: hehe greate
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2018-05-23T21:47:47Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/0K969GG http://dpaste.com/3P713VV http://dpaste.com/2MK678B http://dpaste.com/1F5S302
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2018-05-23T23:55:54Z aeth: I just finished moving nearly everything into with-accessors* and my custom prefixed versions (with-foo-accessors*) in my quest to reduce repetition in Lispy ways. Essentially, it's just with-accessors, but if it's a symbol instead of a list, then it assumes the binding and the accessor are the same name. No more (with-accessors ((width width) (height height)) foo ...)
2018-05-23T23:56:04Z aeth: Now it's just (with-accessors* (width height) foo ...)
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2018-05-23T23:57:21Z aeth: I wonder why they didn't do that in the standard. It's a pretty trivial change and I'd assume most uses of with-accessors use the same variable name as the accessor name unless the accessor name is prefixed (and I deal with uniform-for-an-object prefix elimination my own way, with a define-accessor-macro that essentially defines a with-foo-accessors that automatically applies the prefix)
2018-05-23T23:59:09Z aeth: (I suppose you could also do with-prefixed-accessor as an alternate solution)
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2018-05-24T01:02:30Z jeosol: aeth: that's handy and can reduce code size further, yeah I see the need.
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2018-05-24T02:35:49Z Xach: My broken build server is causing me Irritations
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2018-05-24T02:57:44Z loke: Xach: what's wrong with it?
2018-05-24T02:58:15Z Xach: loke: had a power outage, now it does not react to power switch. replaced the power supply, still doesn't power on. haven't fully troubleshot.
2018-05-24T02:58:35Z Xach: something off-kilter. hope it's not fried in some way.
2018-05-24T02:58:45Z loke: Xach: need a new motherboard?
2018-05-24T02:59:04Z loke: If so, I'
2018-05-24T02:59:17Z loke: I'll be happy to make another Qicklisp donation to cover it
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2018-05-24T03:00:55Z skeuomorf: How do I start new common lisp projects? i.e. how to structure projects? FWIW I am going to use SBCL
2018-05-24T03:01:09Z Xach: I appreciate the offer, contributions will already more than cover replacement hardware. It's the time suck that is the main hassle.
2018-05-24T03:01:47Z Xach: skeuomorf: https://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html is something i wrote a while ago. there are other guides out there.
2018-05-24T03:02:27Z skeuomorf: Xach: Will give it a look, thanks!
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2018-05-24T03:48:47Z skeuomorf: where are things like using #P for defining file paths documented?
2018-05-24T03:49:54Z aeth: http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23
2018-05-24T03:50:03Z aeth: good luck searching for # on most other sites
2018-05-24T03:50:10Z aeth: In this case: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhn.htm
2018-05-24T03:50:40Z aeth: And in general, just follow the link to # instead of #p http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
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2018-05-24T03:51:37Z skeuomorf: aeth: Cool, thank you
2018-05-24T03:51:49Z skeuomorf: Is there anything like Hoogle for CL?
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2018-05-24T03:57:05Z skeuomorf: Stupid question
2018-05-24T03:57:22Z skeuomorf: didn't notice that l1sp.org had a search field at the top :|
2018-05-24T04:00:55Z aeth: There's also http://lispdoc.com/ but it appears to be down right now
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2018-05-24T04:01:25Z aeth: And there are probably 3 more I don't know about
2018-05-24T04:05:41Z skeuomorf: :) Awesome
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2018-05-24T04:41:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-24T06:25:18Z skeuomorf: Good morning beach
2018-05-24T06:25:59Z iqubic: Good morning beach.
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2018-05-24T06:30:09Z beach: skeuomorf: What project are you planning to start?
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2018-05-24T06:38:33Z skeuomorf: beach: Was gonna do a pseudo-"static site generator" to replace my current setup "Hakyll" but decided to discard the idea for the moment
2018-05-24T06:39:45Z jackdaniel: skeuomorf: regarding static site generator there is coleslaw for CL
2018-05-24T06:39:54Z beach: I see.  Did you decide on something else instead?
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2018-05-24T06:41:53Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: Yeah, I saw that earlier but it doesn't really fit my needs, has a lot of things that I don't need (e.g. colorize, tweeting, gfycats, ..etc) and doesn't have stuff I need (I sometimes write in rst, org-mode, LaTeX)
2018-05-24T06:42:02Z skeuomorf: beach: Nope, not yet
2018-05-24T06:43:08Z skeuomorf: Maybe I will change my mind tomorrow and go with coleslaw :D
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2018-05-24T06:44:22Z jackdaniel: skeuomorf: these unnecessary things are optional
2018-05-24T06:44:32Z jackdaniel: McCLIM, ECL and my personal website are all powered by coleslaw
2018-05-24T06:44:59Z jackdaniel: (ftr) https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/ ; https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/ ; turtleware.eu
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2018-05-24T06:45:09Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: Yes, I am aware. I meant in regards to the codebase, I haven't looked at it yet though
2018-05-24T06:45:58Z jackdaniel: OK
2018-05-24T06:46:13Z skeuomorf: Will give it a look tomorrow though
2018-05-24T06:46:36Z skeuomorf: Gonna have to stick to markdown but whatevs
2018-05-24T06:47:12Z jackdaniel: afair coleslaw is pretty extensible, so if you find rst->html converter adding a plugin should be straightforward
2018-05-24T06:47:25Z jackdaniel: I've added cl-who plugin at some point of time because I needed control over tables
2018-05-24T06:47:26Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: Took a glance, code looks cool
2018-05-24T06:47:38Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: nice
2018-05-24T06:47:44Z jackdaniel: (cl-who is sexp->html)
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2018-05-24T06:48:03Z skeuomorf: The main reason I'm moving away from Hakyll is that it's the embodiment of the Turing Tarpit
2018-05-24T06:48:28Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: Yeah, I've used similar EDSLs in Haskell and more closely to CL in Clojure e.g. Hiccup
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2018-05-24T06:55:35Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: It seems it already has support for rst https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/blob/master/docs/plugin-use.md#restructuredtext
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2018-05-24T06:56:48Z jackdaniel: good for you :)
2018-05-24T06:57:08Z skeuomorf: yeah :)
2018-05-24T06:57:49Z jackdaniel: (just to be clear – I'm not affiliated with the project, I just happen to use this software)
2018-05-24T06:59:20Z skeuomorf: Yupe, all good
2018-05-24T06:59:55Z skeuomorf: 👍️
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2018-05-24T07:03:43Z skeuomorf is off to bed
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2018-05-24T08:32:28Z nowhere_man: two times in a row, I managed to corrupt somehow a FASL file in my SBCL, while doing something that nothing to do with it
2018-05-24T08:32:32Z nowhere_man: (but it was loaded)
2018-05-24T08:32:48Z nowhere_man: the first one, I tried calculating a googolplex
2018-05-24T08:33:25Z nowhere_man: killed SBCL, started it again, loaded the system I'm working on, then I get "The variable BULK/CORE::+CORE+ is unbound."
2018-05-24T08:33:39Z nowhere_man: The TRY-RECOMPILING restart works perfectly
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2018-05-24T08:33:51Z nowhere_man: If I stop SBCL and try again, same thing.
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2018-05-24T08:34:04Z nowhere_man: I delete the FASL and recompile, everything works perfectly again.
2018-05-24T08:34:06Z xificurC: (let ((x :x)) (trivia::match '(:x :y :z) ((list* ??? rest) rest)))
2018-05-24T08:34:22Z xificurC: how can I insert the value of x into the matcher?
2018-05-24T08:34:25Z nowhere_man: Second time, I did something with the SLIME REPL, had to kill SBCL, same issue.
2018-05-24T08:34:28Z xificurC: couldn't find it in the docs
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2018-05-24T08:35:45Z nowhere_man: xificurC: you want your first list to be (list x :y :z) ?
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2018-05-24T08:36:49Z xificurC: nowhere_man: which first list? (list x :y :z) == '(:x :y :z) in this case. I'm asking how can I inject a symbol's value into trivia's pattern matcher
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2018-05-24T08:38:48Z xificurC: imagine you're trying to rewrite this into trivia::match (let ((x :x) (to-match '(:x :y :z))) (cond ((eq x (car to-match)) (cdr to-match))))
2018-05-24T08:39:14Z scymtym: xificurC: not directly afaik, but you can do (let ((x :x)) (optima:match '(:x :y :z) ((list* (optima:guard first (eq first x)) rest) (list :first first :rest rest)))) (which should work in trivia as well)
2018-05-24T08:40:16Z jackdaniel: I had problems with trivia not evaluating first match argument (so not being really compatible with optima)
2018-05-24T08:41:05Z xificurC: scymtym: I see, thanks. A bit too verbose for my taste
2018-05-24T08:41:15Z xificurC: jackdaniel: care to give an example?
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2018-05-24T08:43:37Z loli: xificurC: you can use ` syntax in trivia
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2018-05-24T08:44:06Z jackdaniel: xificurC: no, I don't remember the exact problem
2018-05-24T08:44:37Z xificurC: I looked over the pattern matching libraries on cliki, which is always fun to do after ~2 years. I also really liked cl-unification (except for find-variable-value) and screamer. Is anyone here using any of these? Would love some feedback from first hand experience
2018-05-24T08:44:39Z jackdaniel: I remember having optima match expression used in trivia what lead to compilation error
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2018-05-24T08:46:13Z loli: (named-readtables:in-readtable :fare-quasiquote)
2018-05-24T08:46:16Z loli: (match '(a b c d) (`(a b ,@x) x))
2018-05-24T08:46:22Z loli: this should work
2018-05-24T08:46:44Z loli: oh nevermind SBCL seems to have aborted on compilation
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2018-05-24T08:49:23Z loli: MATCH> (match '(x :y :z) (`(x :y ,@z) z))
2018-05-24T08:49:25Z loli: (:Z)
2018-05-24T08:49:30Z loli: this is using trivia
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2018-05-24T08:50:29Z xificurC: loli: ok, now rewrite this to trivia::match (let ((x :x) (to-match '(:x :y :z))) (cond ((eq x (car to-match)) (cdr to-match))))
2018-05-24T08:51:01Z xificurC: i.e. use x to match :x
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2018-05-24T08:57:32Z loli: I'm not sure that ` allows that
2018-05-24T08:57:36Z loli: but this works as your cond
2018-05-24T08:57:37Z loli: (let ((x :x)) (match (list :x :y :z) ((guard (list* a y) (eq x a)) y)))
2018-05-24T08:57:41Z loli: let me play with it some more
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2018-05-24T08:58:18Z scymtym: xificurC: optima has a shortcut for the guard thing: (let ((x :x)) (optima:match '(:x :y :z) ((list* (eq x) rest) (list :rest rest))))
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2018-05-24T08:58:39Z loli: that reminds me of rackets pattern matcher
2018-05-24T08:58:58Z loli: yeah that works in trivia as well
2018-05-24T08:59:05Z loli: (let ((x :x)) (match (list :x :y :z) ((list* (eq x) y) y)))
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2018-05-24T09:00:16Z xificurC: that's missing from the wiki then I guess. Is only eq allowed? Or any function?
2018-05-24T09:00:32Z loli: should be any 1 argument function
2018-05-24T09:00:47Z loli: (let ((x :x)) (match '(:x :y :z) (`(,(equal x) ,@y) y)))
2018-05-24T09:00:48Z loli: works
2018-05-24T09:00:54Z xificurC: 2 argument you mean
2018-05-24T09:01:35Z loli: well no
2018-05-24T09:01:39Z loli: something that takes 1 argument
2018-05-24T09:01:41Z loli: since
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2018-05-24T09:01:43Z loli: (let ((x :x)) (match '(:x :y :z) (`(,(even) ,@y) y)))
2018-05-24T09:01:45Z loli: is also valid if x is a number
2018-05-24T09:05:28Z loli: that's quite odd
2018-05-24T09:05:34Z loli: notice how I wrote even instead of evenp
2018-05-24T09:05:43Z loli: in the macro expansion that gets changed to evenp
2018-05-24T09:05:57Z xificurC: magic
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2018-05-24T09:09:30Z loli: I would suggest consulting the wiki, as it has information on special-patterns and what not
2018-05-24T09:09:49Z loli: also I would recommend looking into let-match if you only have 1 form inside of a match
2018-05-24T09:10:25Z xificurC: common-lisp.net down
2018-05-24T09:10:31Z loli: not those docs
2018-05-24T09:10:34Z loli: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivia/wiki/Type-Based-Destructuring-Patterns
2018-05-24T09:10:51Z xificurC: loli: I know, I was looking at cl-unification on common-lisp.net
2018-05-24T09:11:21Z loli: also
2018-05-24T09:11:23Z loli: (let-match* ((x :x)
2018-05-24T09:11:25Z loli:              ((list* (eq x) y) '(:x :y :z)))
2018-05-24T09:11:27Z loli:   y)
2018-05-24T09:12:01Z xificurC: I havent' found this (eq x) trick in the wiki, have you?
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2018-05-24T09:15:35Z loli: no I have not
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2018-05-24T09:18:14Z loli: it seems forms like equal are implemented with defpattern, and they are a macro ontop of guard
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2018-05-24T09:19:03Z loli: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivia/blob/master/level2/derived.lisp#L177
2018-05-24T09:20:04Z loli: with defpattern, it seems pretty easy to implement rackets ?, thus giving you any predicate
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2018-05-24T09:30:42Z loli: xificurC:satisfies is what you want "(list* (satisfies (lambda (y) (equalp x y))) y)"
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2018-05-24T10:47:30Z contrapunctus: o/
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2018-05-24T11:09:53Z dim: hi
2018-05-24T11:10:09Z dim: with sbcl 1.4.7 and asdf 3.3.2 under debian I get The symbol "*SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCH-FUNCTIONS*" is not external in the ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM package.
2018-05-24T11:10:11Z dim: any ideas?
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2018-05-24T11:27:26Z shrdlu68: clear
2018-05-24T11:27:40Z shrdlu68 oops
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2018-05-24T13:28:33Z shka: hello
2018-05-24T13:28:48Z shka: what binary serialization package you would recommend guys?
2018-05-24T13:29:04Z shka: cl-store requires to much RAM when serializing large objects
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2018-05-24T13:31:17Z dlowe: can it write its serialization directly to a stream?
2018-05-24T13:31:38Z dlowe: Serializing large objects seems like something that would require a lot of memory if you stored the serialization.
2018-05-24T13:32:15Z shrdlu68: shka: https://www.cliki.net/serialization
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2018-05-24T13:34:31Z xificurC: anyone has hands-on experience with cl-unification and screamer?
2018-05-24T13:34:46Z shka: dlowe: i am doing it, but cl-store requires large ammount of memory anyway
2018-05-24T13:34:59Z shka: shrdlu68: not helpful
2018-05-24T13:35:07Z shka: i have around 40 gigabyte to store
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2018-05-24T13:35:34Z shka: i will not try each one of those because it would take to much time
2018-05-24T13:36:09Z shrdlu68: shka: Sorry, not sure exactly what you need. Also haven't used any of those libs myself.
2018-05-24T13:36:55Z shka: in that case, please abstain from posting this oblivious link
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2018-05-24T13:40:36Z shrdlu68: Well, some of those mention that they serialize to streams, so they might not require as much memory.
2018-05-24T13:41:13Z shka: shrdlu68: for instance, cl-store, but in pratice it is not ideal
2018-05-24T13:42:44Z shrdlu68: What kind of data are you serializing?
2018-05-24T13:43:27Z shka: vector of vectors
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2018-05-24T13:58:48Z schweers: I have a quesion regarding macros, environments and expansion.  I’d like to gather pieces of code from various places and splice them together in another place, which happens later.  I’m thinking of having a macro (lets call it on-way), which accepts code and stores it somehow.  In addition, I’d need another macro, which takes this stored code and generates new code from it.  I was thinking of storing not just the c
2018-05-24T13:58:48Z schweers: environment, so I could macroexpand while piecing things together.  So far I’m not sure if I misunderstood something completely.  The question which really bugs me though is: what about closures?  What if the code I’m storing away refers to some lexical variable which will be long gone by the time the final code is assembled?
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2018-05-24T14:00:35Z scymtym_: shka: if your data has no circularities, maybe binding CL-STORE:*CHECK-FOR-CIRCS* to NIL could help
2018-05-24T14:00:40Z shka: schweers: you can't
2018-05-24T14:00:48Z shka: scymtym_: aaah! thanks!
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2018-05-24T14:01:04Z schweers: so if I want that, I’ll have to create lambdas and insert calls to them?
2018-05-24T14:01:06Z jdz: schweers: You can have your storing macros expand into code that store lambdas.
2018-05-24T14:01:23Z shka: or just use methods
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2018-05-24T14:01:33Z schweers: sorry, methods?
2018-05-24T14:01:33Z shka: that's what i do for extendable macros
2018-05-24T14:01:40Z shka: sure, why not?
2018-05-24T14:02:06Z shka: (defmethod funny-method ((symbol (eql 'something)) ...)
2018-05-24T14:02:15Z jdz: schweers: It seems you're mixing compilation and runtime environments.
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2018-05-24T14:02:53Z beach: schweers: I for one have absolutely no idea what the purpose of your code gathering would be, nor of the use case you are thinking of.
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2018-05-24T14:03:17Z beach: schweers: So you don't control where your code gathering takes place?  Otherwise, just don't gather code that refers to lexical variables in parent functions.
2018-05-24T14:03:18Z schweers: jdz: not exactly mixing, but I know that my understanding is yet a little unclear.  Hence my question.  I already suspected that I could not have the code I collect refer to lexical variables
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2018-05-24T14:04:51Z schweers: sorry, I should expand a little: I want to walk an OSM (openstreetmap) file, and would like to register handlers for when a node, a way, or a relation object is encountered.  I already do this with functions, and it works.  But, as a thought experiment, I wanted to know if I could gather the code at compile-time and paste it together to have one big blob of code in the end.
2018-05-24T14:05:10Z schweers: is seems that this would not work.  So I have already learned something from the answers given here
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2018-05-24T14:06:23Z shka: schweers: don't use macro for that
2018-05-24T14:06:33Z schweers: ignoring the issue of refering to the lexical environment: is it at all considered sane to gather code from various places (together with the &environment) and splice them together somewhere else?
2018-05-24T14:07:16Z shka: in concept, yes
2018-05-24T14:07:32Z shka: but implementation needs to be conservative
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2018-05-24T14:07:36Z beach: schweers: Not really.  In Cleavir, we convert the code to ASTs (which no longer refers to the environment), and those ASTs are more easily combined.
2018-05-24T14:07:39Z schweers: I think do+ does this on a smaller scale
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2018-05-24T14:07:45Z schweers: which is where I got the idea
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2018-05-24T14:07:58Z shka: schweers: i don't think it really do that
2018-05-24T14:08:01Z schweers: beach: how do you convert the code?
2018-05-24T14:08:14Z schweers: then maybe I misunderstood the code
2018-05-24T14:08:30Z schweers: beach: I guess its more than just calling macroexpand, right?
2018-05-24T14:08:41Z shka: schweers: take a look at the metabang-bind source code to see reasonable way to handle this kind of stuff
2018-05-24T14:08:55Z schweers: shka: thanks for the hint, I will
2018-05-24T14:09:06Z beach: schweers: By interrogating the environment to see what the code means, and as a result, creating the AST that the code stands for.  Macros and compiler macros are expanded so that no such expansion is required by further processing.
2018-05-24T14:09:33Z schweers: that’s not something that I can do with standard common lisp tools, right?
2018-05-24T14:09:42Z beach: Right.
2018-05-24T14:10:10Z schweers: thanks for all the answers, you really helped me.
2018-05-24T14:10:11Z shka: it is not really required, unless you are implementing compiler
2018-05-24T14:10:51Z shka: anyway, don't try to generate huge ammounts of code by scanning open street map
2018-05-24T14:10:59Z shka: it does not sound like reasonable approach
2018-05-24T14:11:02Z beach: shka: It is, though.  If different code snippets are in different environment, you can't gather them without first removing the environment information.
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2018-05-24T14:12:03Z shka: beach: yeah, but why you would want to gather code snippets from different envs if you are not trying to build something that is basicly a compiler?
2018-05-24T14:12:23Z schweers: shka: the amount of code would not depend on the size of the openstreetmap input.  I just want to gather the pieces of code on what to do with a node (for instance).   But, the more I think about it, the less feasable it seems, for various reasons
2018-05-24T14:12:24Z beach: Don't ask me.  Like I said, I don't understand the use case.
2018-05-24T14:12:37Z shka: beach: right
2018-05-24T14:13:03Z beach: shka: Clearly if code can refer to lexical variables in a parent, then the environment will be different for that code.
2018-05-24T14:13:41Z shka: schweers: all you need is to pass list of operations applicables when scanning graph
2018-05-24T14:13:57Z shka: and operations, well, you can use just functions
2018-05-24T14:14:03Z shka: no need to get fancy
2018-05-24T14:14:12Z schweers: that is what I am doing at the time
2018-05-24T14:14:24Z shka: it works, yes?
2018-05-24T14:14:36Z schweers: I know there is no /need/.  I just wanted to know if it could be done, and what it would take.
2018-05-24T14:14:41Z schweers: you know, curiosity
2018-05-24T14:14:45Z shka: right
2018-05-24T14:14:59Z shka: well, it can be done, technically
2018-05-24T14:15:01Z schweers: And yes, it works perfectly fine.
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2018-05-24T14:15:16Z shka: but that would be close to the compiler for open stree map
2018-05-24T14:15:27Z shka: which sounds weird if you think about it
2018-05-24T14:15:31Z schweers: indeed
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2018-05-24T14:16:03Z schweers: so again, thanks alot for all your answers.  you’ve helped me understand some things a little better.
2018-05-24T14:16:31Z shka: glad i could help somehow
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2018-05-24T14:23:14Z steven___: i have a question about commonqt, this is mycode (:qt-superclass "QGraphicsEllipseItem"), but it running with error, how can i resolve it
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2018-05-24T14:39:17Z steven___: Is someone using commonqt here?
2018-05-24T14:39:54Z Xach: steven___: I don't think many here use it, but there are a few from time to time
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2018-05-24T14:44:08Z scymtym_: Xach: i have fixed versions of cxml and xpath (bug fixes, fewer warnings) which i would like to push into sharplispers repositories. any objections or suggestions?
2018-05-24T14:44:11Z steven___: thank you very much, i think i shoul look for it in stackoverflow
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2018-05-24T14:57:39Z beach: ecraven: I am reading the OpenType specification from Microsoft, and I see what you mean by the complexity being intrinsic.
2018-05-24T14:58:24Z beach: It would be a great project to implement the different modules (APIs) in Common Lisp, though.  I suspect it could be done incrementally.
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2018-05-24T14:59:40Z asarch: Isn't CLisp *SO* beautiful?: (defun こんにちは() (format t "Good afternoon!")) (こんにちは)
2018-05-24T15:00:41Z beach: asarch: I would think that implementations other than CLISP would be able to do that.
2018-05-24T15:00:51Z beach: asarch: What is your reason for using CLISP, by the way?
2018-05-24T15:00:54Z shka: sbcl
2018-05-24T15:01:26Z shka: (-> A (τ (m n) (n m)))
2018-05-24T15:01:30Z shka: petalisp :/
2018-05-24T15:01:51Z Bronsa: I mean, even java can do unicode names
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2018-05-24T15:02:06Z beach: asarch: Oh, perhaps you mean Common Lisp?  Then please do not use the abbreviation "Clisp", since it is the name of an implementation of Common Lisp.  If you have to abbreviate Common Lisp, then use "CL".
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2018-05-24T15:03:00Z asarch: Hi beach, nice to see you again. The main reason is actually to replace my TCSH scripts with some OOP-capable programming language and to learn how AI works :-)
2018-05-24T15:03:17Z asarch: Sorry for "CLisp"
2018-05-24T15:05:04Z schweers: lisp really does still seem to have this association with AI for many people
2018-05-24T15:05:15Z beach: asarch: Sure.  Then you should know that using those characters is not portable.  They may not be part of the character set of every implementation.
2018-05-24T15:05:43Z asarch: Watashi wa nihongo o manande imasu
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2018-05-24T15:07:00Z asarch: I just was testing if I could use other characters than the Latin alphabet to name functions
2018-05-24T15:07:14Z beach: asarch: You can in certain implementations.
2018-05-24T15:07:20Z beach: asarch: But not in all.
2018-05-24T15:07:28Z asarch: Py2 actually can't (although Py3 is fine)
2018-05-24T15:07:38Z beach: asarch: Which is why I thought you specifically referred to CLISP.
2018-05-24T15:07:48Z asarch: Sorry, sorry. My mistake
2018-05-24T15:07:57Z asarch feels miserable... :'-(
2018-05-24T15:08:06Z shka: you should! :P
2018-05-24T15:08:08Z Bike: most implementations have unicode support tho.
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2018-05-24T15:09:00Z schweers: asarch: out of curiosity, what language was that?
2018-05-24T15:09:17Z shka: using anything other then ascii for function name is bad idea
2018-05-24T15:09:36Z beach: schweers: Japanese.
2018-05-24T15:09:45Z schweers: shka: I think it’s a bad idea to use non-ascii outside of a comment or docstring
2018-05-24T15:09:54Z schweers: s/docstring/string/
2018-05-24T15:10:05Z schweers: and maybe even there
2018-05-24T15:10:39Z Bike: it's the glorious future, i don't want to be stuck with what a bunch of cold war engineers thought language was
2018-05-24T15:10:42Z shka: for any symbol, really
2018-05-24T15:11:01Z shka: Bike: future was canceled
2018-05-24T15:11:22Z schweers: shka: when?  the moment that the industry decided that lisp was of the devil? :-P
2018-05-24T15:11:24Z shka: we have capitalist realism for now and forever
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2018-05-24T15:12:26Z shka: schweers: hard to tell, but we are stuck with pre-80s technology and primitive economic model to back it
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2018-05-24T15:12:48Z dim: Unicode for function and variable names is debatable, because in many cases there is more than one possible binary encoding for the same visual output, even without mentionning invisible space
2018-05-24T15:12:52Z shka: and majority consensus seems to be that it is fine
2018-05-24T15:13:08Z dim: ​
2018-05-24T15:13:18Z dim: Here, the line just contains the https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/200B/index.htm
2018-05-24T15:13:27Z dim: Unicode Character 'ZERO WIDTH SPACE' (U+200B)
2018-05-24T15:13:34Z dim: always fun to use in function identifiers, right? ;-)
2018-05-24T15:13:39Z shka: dim: that is the evilist thing i can imagine
2018-05-24T15:13:40Z schweers: lol
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2018-05-24T15:13:59Z dim: well when you have unicode support for symbol names, you have to deal with that, I suppose
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2018-05-24T15:14:32Z dim: then of course there are the multiple ways to write é, and that's a very simple one
2018-05-24T15:14:39Z schweers: maybe I need to configure emacs in a way that any non ascii is highlighted, just in case
2018-05-24T15:14:44Z francogrex: Hi I have this, I put a break, optimize  debug 3 yet no way to single step into the internal code... https://pastebin.com/EFLzz0be
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2018-05-24T15:15:02Z schweers: francogrex: what implementation are you using?
2018-05-24T15:15:07Z francogrex: using sbcl, clisp, both stepper remains in the
2018-05-24T15:15:15Z TCZ: omg why they banned me on lisp-pl
2018-05-24T15:15:18Z francogrex: very outer loo
2018-05-24T15:15:20Z francogrex: loop
2018-05-24T15:15:21Z TCZ: i did nothing wrong
2018-05-24T15:15:45Z TCZ: i think it was this evil jackdaniel
2018-05-24T15:15:47Z shka: TCZ: i can't tell, i put you into ignore list way back
2018-05-24T15:16:11Z TCZ: : |
2018-05-24T15:16:21Z shka: francogrex: why such a long form?
2018-05-24T15:16:30Z oleo: francogrex: not only optimize make sure the others are 0 too
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2018-05-24T15:17:22Z schweers: francogrex: Are you sure the breakpoint is reached?
2018-05-24T15:17:46Z oleo: francogrex: s/optimize/debug/
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2018-05-24T15:17:56Z francogrex: yes, but even without break, just single stepping
2018-05-24T15:18:21Z oleo: sbcl ? where ?
2018-05-24T15:19:14Z francogrex: oleo the debug level is 3
2018-05-24T15:19:27Z francogrex: regardless of whether the code is crappy that's not the point
2018-05-24T15:19:32Z asarch: schweers, Japanese :-)
2018-05-24T15:19:40Z francogrex: i expect a stepper to take me through the whole lot
2018-05-24T15:19:47Z oleo: ja
2018-05-24T15:19:52Z oleo: some steppers are broke out there
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2018-05-24T15:20:58Z francogrex: completely inefficient, it's sad
2018-05-24T15:21:01Z schweers: sbcl should work fine
2018-05-24T15:21:10Z francogrex: sbcl doesn't work fine at all
2018-05-24T15:21:35Z schweers: francogrex: have you set speed and space optimizations?
2018-05-24T15:21:47Z schweers: if you set all three to 3, you may not be able to single step
2018-05-24T15:22:08Z oleo: those are interdependent
2018-05-24T15:22:35Z oleo: so when you say you want to have the most verbose debug level then you set it to 3 and the others to 0 in order to get that
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2018-05-24T15:23:02Z oleo: otherwise stuff is not guaranteed
2018-05-24T15:23:30Z oleo: and if it then still denies you single stepping you may ask over in
2018-05-24T15:23:35Z oleo: #sbcl
2018-05-24T15:24:03Z francogrex: ok, lmaybe it's that. no i have only set debug to 3
2018-05-24T15:24:11Z francogrex: let's try what you suggest
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2018-05-24T15:24:21Z oleo: it's the same vice versa for speed
2018-05-24T15:24:30Z schweers: remember to recompile after changing those
2018-05-24T15:24:46Z oleo: if you want as fast as possible speed then you have todo that on the expense of safety and debug and space
2018-05-24T15:24:51Z schweers: how do you set these qualities?
2018-05-24T15:25:03Z oleo: make it a read-time form
2018-05-24T15:25:07Z schweers: yeah, safety of 0 sure is fun :/
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2018-05-24T15:25:36Z schweers: oleo: what should he make a read time form?
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2018-05-24T15:26:07Z oleo: #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 0))
2018-05-24T15:26:20Z schweers: um … am I missing something?  why at read time?
2018-05-24T15:26:43Z oleo: cause read-time is the firs thing the reader does
2018-05-24T15:27:03Z schweers: is this a widespread idiom?
2018-05-24T15:27:23Z oleo: not only that it's required sometimes even
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2018-05-24T15:27:38Z schweers: huh.  I didn’t know that
2018-05-24T15:27:56Z oleo: depending on your sofistication level of your code....
2018-05-24T15:28:58Z oleo: when you input a form to your interpreter/compiler the reader is ineffect
2018-05-24T15:29:12Z oleo: and it does slurp all at once not piece by piece
2018-05-24T15:29:31Z oleo: so not like (defun blah -> ( then defun then blah....
2018-05-24T15:29:36Z schweers: I know, I just never thought that optimizations should be set at that stage.  This thought simply never crossed my mind.
2018-05-24T15:30:00Z oleo: a declaration is a hint to the compiler
2018-05-24T15:30:02Z oleo: that's why
2018-05-24T15:30:16Z oleo: so it might not take effect
2018-05-24T15:30:21Z oleo: not immediately at least
2018-05-24T15:30:28Z schweers: exactly, the compiler, not the reader.  But then again, one can compile at read time
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2018-05-24T15:30:42Z oleo: yes
2018-05-24T15:31:55Z francogrex: no unfortunately nothing works, even with optimization codes, can't go beyond the first few lines of the loop
2018-05-24T15:32:08Z oleo: that's where i end of thinking further cause i don't have experinece much with that level
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2018-05-24T15:32:56Z oleo: ok then ask in #sbcl really
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2018-05-24T15:34:35Z oleo: maybe you have to switch to interpreter mode
2018-05-24T15:34:54Z oleo: i have no idea really
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2018-05-24T15:37:05Z francogrex: oleo, no sbcl is by default compiler mode
2018-05-24T15:37:09Z francogrex: but good news
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2018-05-24T15:39:36Z oleo: yah i know
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2018-05-24T15:40:44Z francogrex: with optimization it's much better in clisp (the same optim line u sent me)
2018-05-24T15:41:13Z francogrex: i can step into the inner parts of the code - if it can be said like that
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2018-05-24T15:47:47Z oleo: ya i believe you
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2018-05-24T15:56:37Z francogrex: ok thanks. have a good day. bye
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2018-05-24T16:10:49Z contrapunctus: Has anyone tried making Android apps using EQL5-Android?
2018-05-24T16:11:20Z contrapunctus: I'm curious about development and deployment experiences.
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2018-05-24T16:15:44Z makomo: contrapunctus: not me, but there's also this project/product which seems interesting https://wukix.com/mocl
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2018-05-24T16:24:44Z jackdaniel: mocl is not conforming common lisp (but they work towards this goal)
2018-05-24T16:25:09Z jackdaniel: eql5-android worked fine for me when I was playing with it, there are quite a few examples in the source tree
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2018-05-24T16:27:13Z jackdaniel: lispworks works on android from commercial implementations
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2018-05-24T16:37:47Z warweasle: I think dto got ecl to work on android.
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2018-05-24T16:43:12Z jackdaniel: ecl works fine on android, eql5 is based on ecl and on qt5
2018-05-24T16:43:23Z jackdaniel: there is eql5 repl application in google play afaik
2018-05-24T16:43:39Z jackdaniel: so you can dig into it right away (it is swank-enabled)
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2018-05-24T16:44:22Z jackdaniel: dto's games worked with sdl on the other hand. there is ecl's performance bottleneck with clos dispatch we plan to address *after* the upcoming release
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2018-05-24T16:45:05Z jackdaniel: (we plan to follow clasp and implement beach's fast dispatch method)
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2018-05-24T17:18:29Z contrapunctus: makomo: MOCL has been around for a while now, I think :)
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2018-05-24T19:29:13Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: Do you have any idea whether I can have a post as an HTML file that will be rendered as-is? Using coleslaw I mean
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2018-05-24T19:30:25Z jackdaniel: skeuomorf: maybe `format: html' ?
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2018-05-24T19:33:02Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: hmm https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/blob/master/src/content.lisp#L114
2018-05-24T19:33:16Z skeuomorf: I think this will apply the templates though, not sure yet
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2018-05-24T19:33:48Z jackdaniel: I don't know/remember either
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2018-05-24T19:33:55Z jackdaniel: tias (try it and see)
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2018-05-24T19:34:08Z skeuomorf: thanks
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2018-05-24T19:58:16Z papachan: hello
2018-05-24T19:58:39Z papachan: when i write (asdf:asdf-version) inside sbcl repl it give me 3.3.1
2018-05-24T19:58:54Z papachan: but i just build the latest version which is 3.3.2
2018-05-24T19:59:09Z papachan: i also rmeoved all ~/quicklisp/cache/ files
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2018-05-24T20:33:59Z Xach: papachan: you built asdf?
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2018-05-24T20:43:39Z oleo: papachan: put the asdf source into /common-lisp/source build there and then try (require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :asdf)
2018-05-24T20:44:05Z oleo: papachan: sorry i meant into ~/common-lisp/source
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2018-05-24T20:46:49Z papachan: Xach: yeah i built asdf from source
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2018-05-24T20:50:15Z oleo: oh man
2018-05-24T20:50:24Z papachan: ?
2018-05-24T20:50:33Z oleo: i had tried previously the output-translations example from asdf manual
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2018-05-24T20:50:41Z oleo: with the mapping to subdirs
2018-05-24T20:51:21Z oleo: and all my stuff landed in subdirs whereever i have system/package directories
2018-05-24T20:51:26Z oleo: lol
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2018-05-24T20:52:19Z oleo: had to find them all via find . type d -name sbcl-1.4.7-x64 -exec rm -rf {} \; and delete
2018-05-24T20:52:31Z oleo: anyway now it's all clean
2018-05-24T20:52:39Z oleo: and i have the right mapping
2018-05-24T20:53:02Z oleo: bah
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2018-05-24T20:53:40Z oleo: asdf expert over night is hard.....
2018-05-24T20:53:44Z oleo: hahahaaha
2018-05-24T20:53:52Z oleo: :)
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2018-05-24T21:57:40Z skeuomorf: Wooh, finally ported my template to Coleslaw
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2018-05-24T21:59:32Z skeuomorf: Shoo, coleslaw doesn't support relative paths :|
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2018-05-24T22:19:28Z skeuomorf: jackdaniel: do you happen to use the gh-pages plugin?
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2018-05-25T00:52:17Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: hi, let me know if I can help you with Coleslaw
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2018-05-25T01:37:16Z skeuomorf: Hi PuercoPop
2018-05-25T01:37:23Z skeuomorf: Awesome, I have a couple of questions
2018-05-25T01:37:55Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Is there currently support for relative links?
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2018-05-25T01:38:32Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: It would be cool if the links to CSS files, images, ...etc are relative to the root instead of being tied directly to the domain
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2018-05-25T02:00:50Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: You mean CSS in the themes?
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2018-05-25T02:01:21Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Yeah, and also in posts
2018-05-25T02:02:57Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-3.2.7.1/docs/Hakyll-Web-Urls-Relativize.html
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2018-05-25T02:03:53Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: The themes are hardcoding the ${config.domain} as the prefix. You could set the domain in the .coleslawrc as the root URL of your blog
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2018-05-25T02:04:49Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: That's what I do, but it makes all the links tied to my domain name
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2018-05-25T02:05:40Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: put another way, given index, I want to be able to navigate to everywhere else from it without being tied to the domain name, so that all the URLs are relative to index
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2018-05-25T02:07:24Z jason_m: Hello, I recently discovered snooze (https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze). This is a small issue, but the defroute indentation does not work for me as shown in the readme. Can I change how that works? (emacs / slime)
2018-05-25T02:07:48Z PuercoPop: For the posts content you can use the relative URL, or are you asking for something else?
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2018-05-25T02:08:00Z jason_m: The body forms are being lined up under the route name.
2018-05-25T02:09:10Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: let me give an example
2018-05-25T02:09:37Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: I'm guessing the the easiest way is to just copy the theme to a new dir a modify the templates directly. I know there is PAGE-URL but I'm not seeing a way to achieve what you want easily. Then again I haven't read the codebase in quite a while. I still have to incorporate the docs on using Roswell
2018-05-25T02:11:09Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: say I have a .coleslawrc with domain name as "http://example.com", and I have 2 posts, post1.md and post2.md, when I open index.html locally and try to navigate to post1, i get redirected to "example.com/post1" instead of "/root/post1"
2018-05-25T02:11:58Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I have a custom theme already, but this behavior is the same across my theme and hyde
2018-05-25T02:12:10Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I think this last example should make it clear
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2018-05-25T02:16:41Z PuercoPop: COMPUTE-URL is a function unfortunately. Maybe if we change it to a generic function you could specialize the method according the 'content-type' you wish?
2018-05-25T02:18:26Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Sorry, I don't think I understand what this has to do with content types
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2018-05-25T02:20:13Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: If I'm understanding you correctly you want to change the URL of Posts. Or do you want to change the URL of Post in a particular page?
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2018-05-25T02:22:02Z PuercoPop: So URLs belong to the content itself and they are determined by COMPUTE-URL :after initializing the instance of the content (tag/post/etc). So you'd have to modify that if you want to change the URL of a content-type, like POSTS.
2018-05-25T02:22:34Z PuercoPop: Sorry if I'm being thick and misunderstanding your goals
2018-05-25T02:23:39Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: No no, I think I maybe miscommunicating :)
2018-05-25T02:23:51Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Have you read the first paragraph here?
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2018-05-25T02:23:58Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-3.2.7.1/docs/Hakyll-Web-Urls-Relativize.html
2018-05-25T02:24:15Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I think this is the simplest way to illustrate what I mean
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2018-05-25T02:29:29Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: Ah ok. Yeah no, that is not something that Coleslaw can easily do. URLs are property of the content itself not something that is dynamically computed in relation to the 'current' content
2018-05-25T02:30:27Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I see, what would need to be done to make this work?
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2018-05-25T02:36:41Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: I don't really have a good answer short of come up with a 'URL protocol' similar to the 'Document Protocol' and replace the URL reader of content with it? The post templates are receive the currently post as an argument so in theory you should be able to to use that as the current 'context/base'
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2018-05-25T02:38:14Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Hmm, seems complicated, will probably revisit this later
2018-05-25T02:38:20Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I have more questions though :D
2018-05-25T02:39:20Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: The gh-pages plugin doesn't seem to work, neither when using (gh-pages :cname t) nor (gh-pages :cname "http://example.com")
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2018-05-25T02:40:33Z skeuomorf: It errors out on me "Not a valid CNAME: ~A"
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2018-05-25T02:45:12Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: Weird the last one should work. In fact Im not sure how the otherwise clause should be reachable because t should catch everything. Including nil
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2018-05-25T02:46:16Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Feels like I am the only one who tried using the plugin :)
2018-05-25T02:46:52Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: Yeah, and it was written before the 'new gh-pages'. Let me try to run use it locally
2018-05-25T02:47:04Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: great, tyt
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2018-05-25T02:47:26Z PuercoPop: (compiling the plugin warns that the otherwise is unreachable code as expected)
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2018-05-25T02:49:55Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: cool, what about using it via .coleslawrc? did it work for you?
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2018-05-25T02:55:39Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: it does, after I remove the truename call in the initial (let ((blog (truename ..)))
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2018-05-25T02:57:03Z PuercoPop: with my RC file having :plugins ((gh-pages :cname t))
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2018-05-25T02:59:26Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Awesome, trying to find out where quicklisp installs packages so that I can edit my Coleslaw and not have to wait for a release :)
2018-05-25T02:59:55Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: just clone coleslaw in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2018-05-25T03:00:10Z PuercoPop: you can always ask with (ql:where-is "coleslaw")
2018-05-25T03:01:42Z PuercoPop: But it looks like the otherwise clause should instead be a wrapping unless
2018-05-25T03:02:23Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Nice on the `where-is`, it's actually `where-is-system`, still new to Common Lisp
2018-05-25T03:03:09Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: What did you replace the truename call with?
2018-05-25T03:03:27Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: just remove it
2018-05-25T03:03:49Z skeuomorf: aight
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2018-05-25T03:04:20Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: and leave the (rel-path ...) stuff?
2018-05-25T03:04:25Z PuercoPop: yeah
2018-05-25T03:04:32Z skeuomorf: awesome, thanks
2018-05-25T03:05:21Z PuercoPop: np. Let me know if it works out (and don't forget to add your blog to the wiki)
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2018-05-25T03:06:55Z skeuomorf: Cool cool
2018-05-25T03:07:26Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Do I need to do anything after editing the file other than reloading coleslaw?
2018-05-25T03:08:27Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: no, you don't even need to reload coleslaw, just C-c C-c over the function to compile it again
2018-05-25T03:08:51Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: pfft, same error
2018-05-25T03:09:23Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: what is your (domain *config*)
2018-05-25T03:09:39Z PuercoPop: and what is the result of (parse-uri (domain *config*))
2018-05-25T03:09:43Z skeuomorf: sorry, hold on a sec. I think I made a mistake
2018-05-25T03:11:06Z skeuomorf: yupe, made a mistake, removed ".curr" when I was removing truename
2018-05-25T03:11:10Z skeuomorf: Works now!
2018-05-25T03:11:12Z skeuomorf: Thank you
2018-05-25T03:11:38Z skeuomorf: What is the 1.html file that gets generated?
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2018-05-25T03:12:23Z skeuomorf: I know it's a link to index.html, but why?
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2018-05-25T03:16:09Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: IDK, You'd have to ask KingCons that.
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2018-05-25T03:16:43Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: hmm, KingCons is not irc I presume :)
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2018-05-25T03:17:48Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: yeah. I haven't seen them in quite a while. You could @ them at twitter or shoot them an email
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2018-05-25T03:19:51Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: aha
2018-05-25T03:20:00Z skeuomorf: weird, sitemap.xml is not generated
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2018-05-25T03:21:01Z PuercoPop: is it in your plugins?
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2018-05-25T03:22:52Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: yupe
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2018-05-25T03:23:11Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Found these though, where you commented https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/issues/84 and https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/issues/142
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2018-05-25T03:26:54Z PuercoPop: So its been broken for years U_U'
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2018-05-25T03:27:12Z skeuomorf: hehe
2018-05-25T03:27:23Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: What does it need to be fixed?
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2018-05-25T03:27:52Z skeuomorf: I noticed that a user had sent a patch but you objected to it for some reason, do you have an idea of how we can fix it properly?
2018-05-25T03:28:01Z skeuomorf: a sitemap is kinda essential for SEO purposes
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2018-05-25T03:30:17Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: do you have the link handy? I only remember rejecting the djula plugin but only because I could come up with a way to handle both the render from the 'outside to the inside' of closure-templates and djul'as from the 'inside to the outside'
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2018-05-25T03:30:58Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: oh, I meant your comment here https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/issues/142#issuecomment-335061002
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2018-05-25T03:33:00Z PuercoPop: I meant that the sitemap is conceptually an index and not content (and the link at the end should be https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/commit/78f1fc9fa05c4134e8fe9cd2069350da8ebf6458)
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2018-05-25T03:35:13Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: and in compile-blog indexes are generated last
2018-05-25T03:35:20Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: I see, so their patch could work by changing content to index?
2018-05-25T03:35:36Z PuercoPop: yeah, that is my impression
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2018-05-25T03:36:27Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Ok, I will get back to that in a bit, but
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2018-05-25T03:37:23Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: when I generate a blog to a deploy-dir, it overwrites the .git repo, is there a way currently to preserve this?
2018-05-25T03:37:39Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: or should I stick to deploying to dir1 then copying to dir2?
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2018-05-25T03:41:33Z PuercoPop: you should push to a repo which deploys to dir-2
2018-05-25T03:41:51Z PuercoPop: skeuomorf: sorry gtg to sleep
2018-05-25T03:42:08Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: No worries, thanks a bunch for the help :)
2018-05-25T03:42:12Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: sleep tight!
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2018-05-25T04:05:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-25T04:09:53Z skeuomorf: Morning beach :)
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2018-05-25T04:53:41Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-25T05:13:16Z makomo: morning :-)
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2018-05-25T09:03:54Z dim: I think I solved my SBCL heap exhausted problem... I'm now using CCL
2018-05-25T09:04:03Z dim: it's a very good trick that I recommend
2018-05-25T09:04:06Z beach: Heh.
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2018-05-25T09:05:39Z dim: sometimes I wish I had the time and skills to have a look at the SBCL GC, more often I'm just so grateful that we have CCL around
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2018-05-25T09:16:42Z shka: i have absolutly no idea why sbcl's GC is subpar
2018-05-25T09:18:27Z jackdaniel: it might be very well allocation technique which requires cleverer gc, or sbcl simply allocates more (in order to have faster code for example) etc etc
2018-05-25T09:20:00Z beach: shka: I suppose it was written a few decades ago, and then it has been patched to allow for non-moving objects and such.
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2018-05-25T09:20:36Z shka: it all may be very well true, i guess
2018-05-25T09:22:11Z beach: shka: For one thing, it requires a fixed-size heap that can't be expanded as needed.
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2018-05-25T09:24:17Z fe[nl]ix:  dim: you can start SBCL with a 512G heap like CCL does
2018-05-25T09:24:38Z shka: i tried to do that
2018-05-25T09:24:52Z shka: but i got heap corruption
2018-05-25T09:24:57Z beach: shka: I would like to turn your remark around like this: There is no reason to believe that ANY free Common Lisp implementation uses modern GC technology, simply because they were all initially created several decades ago.
2018-05-25T09:25:08Z dim: fe[nl]ix: I can always try, but well, SBCL actually uses way more memory than CCL at the same task with pgloader
2018-05-25T09:26:06Z shka: beach: well, that's sad
2018-05-25T09:26:09Z dim: beach: is there some theory behind precise vs generational GC that might explain?
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2018-05-25T09:26:47Z beach: shka: On the contrary, I make my living because of this situation. :)
2018-05-25T09:27:03Z beach: dim: Yes, I can do that.
2018-05-25T09:27:33Z beach: Actually, those two are orthogonal concepts.
2018-05-25T09:27:53Z beach: There is a distinction between "precise" and "conservative".
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2018-05-25T09:28:27Z beach: A precise collector requires help from the compiler to know what is in all registers and stack locations in every stack frame.
2018-05-25T09:29:10Z beach: One way to make sure that is trues, is to divide the registers into two sets, registers containing Common Lisp objects and registers that contain binary stuff not to be traced.
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2018-05-25T09:29:33Z beach: On x86-64 that leaves to few registers for either purpose.
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2018-05-25T09:29:48Z beach: So SBCL doesn't do that.
2018-05-25T09:30:11Z beach: Another way is to make sure the compiler emits information for each value of the program counter, stating what register contains what.
2018-05-25T09:30:15Z beach: SBCL doesn't do that either.
2018-05-25T09:30:24Z beach: So SBCL scans the stack conservatively.
2018-05-25T09:30:37Z beach: Anything that looks like a pointer is assumed to be one.
2018-05-25T09:31:35Z beach: But, this technique has some restrictions.  You can't move objects around arbitrarily, because if was really a raw integer, you will modify it, violating the semantics of your code.
2018-05-25T09:31:41Z beach: dim: Makes sense?
2018-05-25T09:31:43Z dim: also let's note that SBCL is *way* faster than CCL, but only until it crashes because of heap exhaustion
2018-05-25T09:32:12Z beach: Sure.
2018-05-25T09:33:03Z dim: makes sense
2018-05-25T09:33:05Z beach: dim: Generational collectors depend on the generational hypothesis: Most objects die young, and the longer an object is live, the more likely it is to stay that way.
2018-05-25T09:33:09Z dim: thanks for the explaining
2018-05-25T09:33:47Z dim: we have a buffer eviction policy done that way in PostgreSQL, with a kind of a generation increment from 1 to 5, and 5 means forever, basically
2018-05-25T09:33:48Z beach: dim: So objects are divided into generations.  It is typically done by splitting the heap into independent generations, but there are other techniques.
2018-05-25T09:34:23Z beach: Objects that have been live for a long time are promoted to an older generation.
2018-05-25T09:34:38Z dim: as a mere CL programmer/user, how can you hint SBCL GC into doing a better job? or as a general approach, how to track what conses and how to cons less?
2018-05-25T09:34:51Z beach: Typically, the age is measured by the fact that they survived a collection of their generation.
2018-05-25T09:35:24Z dim: sometimes I'm thinking I should get myself a personal training on CL consing avoidance techniques which would include a review and improvement of the pgloader code
2018-05-25T09:35:34Z beach: dim: That's to SBCL-specific for me to know.  Maybe #sbcl would be a better place for that question.
2018-05-25T09:36:04Z dim: well consing in general I'm quite sure you know lots about it
2018-05-25T09:36:17Z dim: but it might be too general to address in a chat that way
2018-05-25T09:37:58Z beach: dim: It is not clear that avoiding consing is going to make performance better, nor is it clear that it will solve the heap-exhaustion problem.
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2018-05-25T09:39:11Z beach: dim: Just to give you some idea of how complex this stuff is:...
2018-05-25T09:40:14Z beach: If you reuse CONS cells, you might create pointers from older objects to younger objects.  Then the memory manager may have to record those pointers specially when a GC of a young generation is performed.
2018-05-25T09:40:25Z dim: that would explain why I can't seem to be able to fix that problem, no matter how much time and energy I've spent on trying to have pgloader cons less
2018-05-25T09:40:30Z beach: Such pointers are assumed to be rare, and of you have a lot of them, performance may suffer.
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2018-05-25T09:40:50Z beach: Yeah, it is not that simple.
2018-05-25T09:40:54Z dim: I don't think I'm reusing cons cells much in pgloader
2018-05-25T09:41:14Z beach: I am just telling you one particular issue.
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2018-05-25T09:41:54Z beach: Just so you know that you need to know the details of the GC in order to know how to optimize for it.
2018-05-25T09:42:44Z dim: the main thing I do is receive bytes from the network (typically a database driver gets that for me), then I push the data (vector of strings) into a lparallel queue (pointers, no copy), then another thread pops from the queue and transform the data into another vector of (unsigned-byte 8) this time (utf-8 representation ready for pg copy protocol), and then we send that up the network again to pg
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2018-05-25T09:43:35Z dim: I also have a “batch” notion that happens after the transform and before pushing in the network to pg, where I keep around everything that is going to be sent in vectors of 25000 elements, so that in case of error I can replay the vector and skip erroneous lines
2018-05-25T09:43:50Z beach: dim: Maybe the SBCL maintainers can draw some conclusion from that use case.  I certainly can't.
2018-05-25T09:43:53Z dim: without having to transform again, to keep replay not too costly
2018-05-25T09:44:00Z dim: beach: fair enough
2018-05-25T09:44:11Z dim: just though being too generic wouldn't help much ;-)
2018-05-25T09:44:19Z beach: That's true too. :)
2018-05-25T09:44:23Z beach: Anyway, lunch time.
2018-05-25T09:44:26Z beach: I'll be back later.
2018-05-25T09:44:31Z dim: have a good break!
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2018-05-25T09:55:10Z nirved: dim: does (sb-ext:gc :full t) help?
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2018-05-25T09:59:14Z xificurC: we're trying out ABCL in a java app, planning to use it as a scripting language. My problem is with multithreading. If 2 threads are creating a new package will they clobber each other or can I ensure thread safety for them
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2018-05-25T10:00:48Z dim: nirved: I do that after each batch, and it doesn't in that case, no
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2018-05-25T12:43:21Z xificurC: anyone knows an equivalent of `dirname $0`? I.e. finding the directory of the lisp file that is being loaded
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2018-05-25T12:45:57Z flip214: xificurC: https://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html
2018-05-25T12:48:57Z xificurC: flip214: thank you
2018-05-25T12:49:40Z flip214: xificurC: you're welcome... I hope that helps a bit
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2018-05-25T14:15:44Z klm2is: When I define a method in allegro cl with (defmethod foo ((x string)) (declare (ignore x)) (values)), I get a compiler warning for the variable x being used although it was declared ignored. Is this true of other implementations? Should it work this way?
2018-05-25T14:16:09Z beach: Yes, it is used in the dispatch.
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2018-05-25T14:17:08Z Bike: "The expansion of the defmethod macro ``refers to'' each specialized parameter (see the description of ignore within the description of declare)." says clhs defmethod
2018-05-25T14:17:10Z klm2is: Makes sense. I was trying out cl-mustache and noticed that it has code like this in some places. I didn't know if that was an implementation thing.
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2018-05-25T14:19:01Z klm2is: Thank you both.
2018-05-25T14:19:12Z beach: Anytime.
2018-05-25T14:19:14Z klm2is: @Bike I read that, but I didn't know whether it's then required for the implementation to provide a warning.
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2018-05-25T14:20:28Z sjl_: SBCL doesn't have that behavior
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2018-05-25T14:21:06Z Bike: it's not required to, but it's certainly allowed to, which is what you're concerned with, no?
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2018-05-25T14:21:36Z dlowe: klm2is: use "ignorable" instead of "ignore" and you won't get the warning
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2018-05-25T14:22:08Z klm2is: Thanks
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2018-05-25T17:55:39Z slyrus: scymtym, I'd be interested in a sharplispers github cxml/xpath/etc...
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2018-05-25T18:07:23Z scymtym: slyrus: ok, i'm going to create repositories and push what i have
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2018-05-25T18:13:03Z pjb`: Good idea.
2018-05-25T18:13:25Z pjb`: creating git repository should always be the first thing to do in a project (well just after ordering the t-shirts).
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2018-05-25T20:00:01Z araly: hey everyone, I have a question, if I have a function like (parse-integer) which returns two values, the number parsed and the size of the string understood, how can I use both ?
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2018-05-25T20:00:39Z ecraven: araly: (values foo bar)
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2018-05-25T20:01:00Z ecraven: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node94.html
2018-05-25T20:01:37Z makomo: araly: you probably want multiple-value-bind, but check out the link above ^
2018-05-25T20:01:56Z araly: okay
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2018-05-25T20:29:24Z aeth: That's not actually an exhaustive list. There's also (setf (values ...) ...) which is probably built on multiple-value-setq
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2018-05-25T20:34:29Z araly: is there a way to only use the second value returned from a function ?
2018-05-25T20:34:46Z sjl: clhs nth-value
2018-05-25T20:34:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2018-05-25T20:35:10Z sjl: (nth-value 1 ...) (1 because the values are numbered 0, 1, ...)
2018-05-25T20:37:00Z araly: oh nice, that's what I was searching for thanks
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2018-05-25T20:37:06Z aeth: I usually use (multiple-value-bind (foo bar) (whatever) (declare (ignore foo)) ...)
2018-05-25T20:37:10Z aeth: Verbose but very explicit.
2018-05-25T20:37:44Z aeth: If I used nth-value I'd probably wrap it in a trivial function just to make it more readable.
2018-05-25T20:37:45Z araly: how does that work ?
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2018-05-25T20:38:16Z aeth: I bind all of the values and then discard the one(s) I don't use. Ideally, the compiler will optimize it to be the same as nth-value
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2018-05-25T20:39:00Z araly: so where would I put my function that returns two values, at the place of "whatever" ?
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2018-05-25T20:39:14Z aeth: yes
2018-05-25T20:39:18Z araly: okay
2018-05-25T20:40:22Z aeth: It depends on what you're going for, though. If it's common enough just defining a trivial function is probably the way to go. e.g. (defun hash-table-value-exists-p (key hash-table) (nth-value 1 (gethash key hash-table)))
2018-05-25T20:40:32Z aeth: That's common enough that it's probably best as its own function.
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2018-05-25T20:41:33Z aeth: In fact, I should probably use that in my own code.
2018-05-25T20:41:56Z aeth: But imo you should either do a function wrapping nth-value or a multiple-value-bind that ignores the values you don't need because either will be more self-documenting than just using nth-value.
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2018-05-25T20:43:49Z araly: okay
2018-05-25T20:44:26Z araly: well for this time I'm just using the second value of a function once, but I will turn it into a function if it turns out I use it again after
2018-05-25T20:44:38Z aeth: Seems reasonable.
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2018-05-25T20:45:51Z aeth: For very trivial functions that are small and probably will never change, you can declare them inline above the function definition, e.g.: (declaim (inline hash-table-value-exists-p))\n(defun hash-table-value-exists-p (key hash-table)\n...
2018-05-25T20:46:11Z aeth: So there's basically no reason not to use trivial functions when it makes the code better. It's very idiomatic.
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2018-05-25T21:04:21Z stylewarning: Has anybody worked on or thought about being able to write small snippets of inline C code in Lisp?
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2018-05-25T21:04:29Z stylewarning: That's friendly with the build process?
2018-05-25T21:05:35Z oleo: you mean as a templating engine ?
2018-05-25T21:05:58Z oleo: so you don't compile C in lisp, just use it to generate your C code ?
2018-05-25T21:06:46Z oleo: i think that can be done yes
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2018-05-25T21:11:13Z MichaelRaskin: Cmera (or how is it even written) would even allow you to generate C from Lispy syntax
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2018-05-25T21:19:14Z aeth: I generate a limited subset of GLSL from s-expressions. Nothing really stops me from finishing GLSL and then also adding what syntax C has on top of that.
2018-05-25T21:20:15Z aeth: going s-expressions->strings isn't too challenging of a task
2018-05-25T21:20:53Z aeth: The strings can even be made at compile time from the expressions. It would greatly complicate your build process, though.
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2018-05-25T21:23:36Z aeth: It wouldn't be truly "inline" because the C compiler wouldn't be cooperating, unless you built the C compiler yourself, which is totally doable non-portably in SBCL.
2018-05-25T21:24:22Z stylewarning: I mean, sometimes it's annoying to write Lisp code that looks identical to C, except it's 10x more verbose and still less performant.
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2018-05-25T21:24:45Z stylewarning: Maybe it would be nice to just compile a C function to some anonymous library and dynamically load it or something, I don't know.
2018-05-25T21:25:09Z aeth: Are the internals exposed by SBCL (e.g. define-vop) sufficient to write a C compiler with?
2018-05-25T21:25:59Z stylewarning: Almost surely.
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2018-05-25T21:26:31Z aeth: That would be an interesting alternative to relying on foreign C, although it wouldn't be portable.
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2018-05-25T21:28:06Z stylewarning: When you're writing high-performance code, it's rarely portable.
2018-05-25T21:28:25Z aeth: I don't really have issues with verbose low-level CL, though. The thing that's the most verbose compared to C-style-syntax is probably aref, but I even have a with-accessors equivalent for that now in with-2D-array-accessors. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/184e235be3974ebc3b062b3fb94559c2e15797f9/util/array.lisp#L106-144
2018-05-25T21:28:32Z aeth: Despite the name, it supports 2D and 1D arrays.
2018-05-25T21:28:59Z aeth: The result is something that's more verbose than using aref directly, but probably still more readable.
2018-05-25T21:29:30Z aeth: e.g. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/184e235be3974ebc3b062b3fb94559c2e15797f9/render/gl.lisp#L180-197
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2018-05-25T21:30:04Z stylewarning: aeth: how about the verbosity of 0xFFFFFFFF & *(uint64_t*)(&f) in CL?
2018-05-25T21:30:22Z aeth: I greatly prefer the verbosity of bit operations in CL to the crypticness in C-style
2018-05-25T21:30:40Z aeth: It encourages trivial inline helper functions that make the code self-documenting imo
2018-05-25T21:30:47Z stylewarning: aeth: maybe because you don't read enough bitwise arithmetic and prefer things spelled out because a DSL doesn't make sense for you
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2018-05-25T21:31:14Z MichaelRaskin: Are you bitop-ping a pointer?
2018-05-25T21:31:32Z MichaelRaskin: because GC us allowed to move things…
2018-05-25T21:31:33Z stylewarning: MichaelRaskin: no, reinterpreting a float as a collection of bits
2018-05-25T21:31:47Z aeth: stylewarning: well e.g. I prefer something like this for a common use case of bit operations: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/184e235be3974ebc3b062b3fb94559c2e15797f9/math/boolean-set.lisp
2018-05-25T21:31:50Z stylewarning: MichaelRaskin: something like #'IEEE-FLOATS:ENCODE-FLOAT64
2018-05-25T21:32:17Z stylewarning: aeth: makes sense if the bits represent a set
2018-05-25T21:32:22Z stylewarning: aeth: i agree with that
2018-05-25T21:32:32Z aeth: I try to find out what I'm doing with the bits and turn those into trivial functions
2018-05-25T21:32:36Z aeth: I would never do that in C!
2018-05-25T21:32:37Z MichaelRaskin: Ah right, lost practice in counting stars
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2018-05-25T21:41:25Z pjb`: stylewarning: what about the verbosity of (logbitp b n) in C?
2018-05-25T21:41:35Z stylewarning: pjb`: what about it?
2018-05-25T21:41:43Z pjb`: write it in C!
2018-05-25T21:41:53Z aeth: Write a function that returns multiple values in C.
2018-05-25T21:42:02Z stylewarning: this isn't a competition
2018-05-25T21:42:09Z aeth: (My low-level CL is filled with multiple values.)
2018-05-25T21:42:09Z pjb`: or (setf (ldb (byte s p) n) f)
2018-05-25T21:42:25Z stylewarning: the fact of the matter is that C has a good DSL for many kinds of bitwise operations, and you can trust a C compiler to produce good code for those
2018-05-25T21:42:39Z pjb`: stylewarning: it's a comparison: CL is lower level a programming language than C
2018-05-25T21:42:41Z stylewarning: this is also not to say that you can't write such in Lisp, which was what I was originally suggesting
2018-05-25T21:42:54Z aeth: pjb`: With the exception of GC.
2018-05-25T21:42:55Z stylewarning: pjb`: i'll believe you when CL isn't tagging bits and boxing things
2018-05-25T21:43:00Z pjb`: the fact of the matter is that CL has a much better DSL for bitwise operations!
2018-05-25T21:43:10Z pjb`: and actually it has 4 different ways to do it!
2018-05-25T21:43:13Z aeth: pjb`: Depends.
2018-05-25T21:43:21Z stylewarning: pjb`: lisp is more mathematical, and hides the machine representation of data pretty well.
2018-05-25T21:43:38Z stylewarning: pjb`: C is consequently not very mathematical, and lets you interpret bits however you'd like
2018-05-25T21:43:51Z aeth: CL has a type system. C is a bunch of bits.
2018-05-25T21:44:14Z stylewarning: anyway, this is non-interesting, because it's a usual rehash of what everybody already knows
2018-05-25T21:44:41Z pjb`: Then don't ask about the verbosity of 0xFFFFFFFF & *(uint64_t*)(&f) in CL?
2018-05-25T21:45:22Z aeth: pjb`: There would be advantages to writing either C strings or s-expressions that trivially map to C-strings directly in CL source, which was the original point.
2018-05-25T21:45:39Z stylewarning: pjb`: Did I ask about the verbosity? I think I asked about C in Lisp.
2018-05-25T21:45:50Z aeth: ("C strings" as in strings of C, not the hideous representation of strings that C has.)
2018-05-25T21:47:05Z pjb`: ok. This is another thing.   There's Vacietis https://www.cliki.net/Vacietis
2018-05-25T21:47:23Z pjb`: The sources of Zeta-C are available also (if you wanted to port/rewrite it in CL).
2018-05-25T21:47:39Z pjb`: And I started a C compiler written in CL (only the pre-processor so far).
2018-05-25T21:47:56Z pjb`: As you can see, there are several ways to embed C code in CL.
2018-05-25T21:48:07Z pjb`: You might be interested in having a closer look at vacietis.
2018-05-25T21:48:13Z aeth: pjb`: I wonder if it would be better to back the C memory in an emulated C by CFFI's C array representation or by static-vectors rather than CL arrays. Then you get interoperability with C libraries, too.
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2018-05-25T21:48:29Z pjb`: It's an idea.
2018-05-25T21:48:43Z MichaelRaskin: ECL does have some inline C support, as it goes through C compiler anyway
2018-05-25T21:48:44Z pjb`: It depends on what you want. If you want speed, it might be a way to do it.
2018-05-25T21:48:51Z pjb`: If you want safetly, I would avoid FFI.
2018-05-25T21:49:09Z pjb`: s/tly/ty/
2018-05-25T21:49:15Z aeth: static-vectors would work best, then, because you could trivally substitute normal CL arrays instead of using static-vectors, but share most of the code.
2018-05-25T21:49:31Z MichaelRaskin: Also, it has a good idea how to interpret values in C (because it has to)
2018-05-25T21:49:45Z pjb`: Only if you need interoperability.
2018-05-25T21:50:05Z aeth: We'll need C interoperability for the forseeable future, unfortunately.
2018-05-25T21:50:08Z pjb`: My take is to shift the C environment into the lisp environment (and therefore uplift it to the same safety level as lisp).
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2018-05-25T21:50:27Z pjb`: So you wouldn't do FFI, you would just compile the foreign C library with my future compiler and obtain lisp object code.
2018-05-25T21:50:50Z aeth: The issue is APIs. CLX is a rare exception to this.
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2018-05-25T21:51:03Z pjb`: aeth: what is C interoperability?  As long as you have the C sources (which is the case most of the time), you could just recompile them in lisp.
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2018-05-25T21:52:17Z aeth: One example is 3D graphics APIs as well as input/window/sound/etc. A lot of graphical CL apps use cl-opengl with cl-sdl2 for this reason, although in theory you could probably write directly to the OS APIs and bypass the need for something like SDL2 as a dependency.
2018-05-25T21:53:10Z aeth: A graphics toolkit ported to cl-opengl or (in the future) cl-vulkan could, if you don't care about not feeling native (and only macOS users seem to care about that), bypass most, but not all C.
2018-05-25T21:54:13Z stylewarning: pjb`: out of curiosity, have you written much code that has to process terabytes of numerical data in Lisp?
2018-05-25T21:54:16Z aeth: Alternatively, a future revision to the CL standard could include all of these OS APIs into the standard itself. Then the implementors would deal with it and anything written in CL itself would technically be pure CL without touching C APIs.
2018-05-25T21:54:26Z aeth: Sounds unnecessary just for purism, though
2018-05-25T21:55:05Z pjb`: stylewarning: obviously, I'm not in that hurry, or I'd use cuda!
2018-05-25T21:55:14Z aeth: (Some things that require OS C APIs probably could be moved into the language, though.)
2018-05-25T21:55:20Z pjb`: And notice how with cuda, you send SOURCE code to the nvidia GPU!
2018-05-25T21:55:35Z stylewarning: ok
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2018-05-25T21:56:18Z aeth: pjb`: In the near future you could compile, via a written-in-Lisp compiler, a Lisp-like language to SPIR-V and send that to the GPU. You'd still have to deal with the OpenCL/OpenGL/Vulkan/whatever API, though.
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2018-05-25T21:56:43Z aeth: There does seem to be a bare minimum of foreign code necessary
2018-05-25T21:56:56Z pjb`: what if you compile opengl in CL? and use the cuda backend?
2018-05-25T21:57:13Z aeth: OpenGL as in libmesa or something?
2018-05-25T21:57:19Z pjb`: yes.
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2018-05-25T21:57:26Z aeth: Then you'd have to interface with the Linux kernel
2018-05-25T21:57:35Z aeth: At some point, C comes up unless it's a Lisp OS
2018-05-25T21:57:47Z pjb`: Yes, the syscalls are the only FFI required.
2018-05-25T21:57:59Z pjb`: and syscalls are NOT C FFI.
2018-05-25T21:58:10Z pjb`: Well, they're C data structures, but not C function calls.
2018-05-25T21:58:37Z pjb`: We've also discussed in defining a syscall API using CL data types instead of C type.
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2018-05-25T21:59:03Z pjb`: Kind of like X11 has actual lisp symbols (29-bit + tag bits).
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2018-05-25T21:59:23Z pjb`: Yes, X was once written in lisp…
2018-05-25T21:59:39Z pjb`: Like Postgres, like javascript, like everything… :-(
2018-05-25T21:59:44Z aeth: For the forseeable future, though, you'll want: access to some POSIX things not in the CL standard, access to the GPU, windowing/input, sound, and a few other things.
2018-05-25T22:00:20Z aeth: And if you want portability, on Windows you can't use the syscalls and expect them not to break. You'd have to use CFFI there.
2018-05-25T22:00:27Z aeth: iirc.
2018-05-25T22:00:30Z pjb`: aeth: the only argument is proprietary binary libraries.  The key word above was SOURCE.
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2018-05-25T22:01:56Z pjb`: aeth: yes, but on MS-Windows, you use different CL implementations anyways. You don't run the same CL executable both on MS-Windows and on Linux (unless you use the Linux-in-Windows-10 thingy.
2018-05-25T22:02:07Z pjb`: )
2018-05-25T22:02:28Z White_Flame: pjb`: I, too, have a dream of C-in-Lisp compilation & native API access.  Have you done any work on it so far?
2018-05-25T22:02:33Z pjb`: aeth: the idea here is that a CL implementation could provide a native access to syscalls, without calling libc.
2018-05-25T22:02:51Z pjb`: White_Flame: so far, only the pre-processor is implemented, and I started working on the parser.
2018-05-25T22:03:04Z aeth: pjb`: which can be done, for the Linux kernel
2018-05-25T22:03:06Z pjb`: But I've not been able to work on it for 2.5 years at least…
2018-05-25T22:03:57Z pjb`: And since I'm launching a start up now, I won't have any time soon.
2018-05-25T22:04:31Z pjb`: If we become billionnaire, I promise to fork some of it to complete this C to CL compiler :-)
2018-05-25T22:04:40Z aeth: pjb`: GPU, windowing, input, and sound will probably not be pure-CL, however.
2018-05-25T22:04:50Z aeth: In fact, I'd argue that it's basically a waste of time for now.
2018-05-25T22:04:58Z pjb`: aeth: it is in Mezzano, so why not on Linux?
2018-05-25T22:05:01Z Bike: can we stop arguing about this crap
2018-05-25T22:05:02Z aeth: Top down. Start with user-facing things. Replace the middle layers later.
2018-05-25T22:05:05Z edgar-rft donates a billion conses to pjb
2018-05-25T22:05:17Z pjb`: Thanks for the conses!
2018-05-25T22:05:17Z aeth: People will want Lisp middle layers if they have Lisp top layers.
2018-05-25T22:05:34Z aeth optimizes edgar-rft to be non-consing
2018-05-25T22:05:41Z edgar-rft: pjb`, sorry, but it's all garbage
2018-05-25T22:06:19Z aeth: edgar-rft: Does that make pjb` a garbage collector?
2018-05-25T22:07:03Z edgar-rft: he already was before
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2018-05-25T22:07:44Z pjb`: You know he's the most powerful character in Dilbert?
2018-05-25T22:11:27Z edgar-rft: after the nuclear war garbage collectors will be the kings of earth
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2018-05-25T22:14:40Z aeth: The way I'd see graphical Lisp in the near future is: write to SDL and OpenGL, but be flexible about the SDL part. Eventually, the input/windowing part could be replaced with a more Lispy solution. I suppose OpenGL is just so complex that pjb's solution would be necessary for Lisp purists, although eventually migrating over to the simpler Vulkan might present a simpler future solution.
2018-05-25T22:16:03Z aeth: What will probably happen is either SDL will still be in use on non-Linux platforms or there will be an SDL-replacement that uses the native APIs and some OSes will need CFFI for those (but there wouldn't be any C *dependencies* that need to be shipped)
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2018-05-25T22:16:51Z aeth: All of this is still quite low level. If you wanted McCLIM or whatever, there'd probably be a new OpenGL backend to it eventually.
2018-05-25T22:16:54Z pjb: Intel is creating its own GPUs.  There will be some competition in the backends. So perhaps libraries like OpenGL will strive.
2018-05-25T22:17:33Z White_Flame: is there any software out there that doesn't use opengl/d3d/etc types of libraries?
2018-05-25T22:17:42Z pjb: But for computing jobs, I guess people will choose to use the native SDKs. (ie. program directly in cuda). In that case, OpenGL is irrelevant.
2018-05-25T22:18:06Z White_Flame: I guess I mean graphical software specifically
2018-05-25T22:18:23Z pjb: Games?
2018-05-25T22:18:29Z aeth: White_Flame: There are three ways to do a GUI. Browser (or electron), 3D APIs, or directly using the 2D APIs. Unless you're doing very simple things, you want the 3D APIs.
2018-05-25T22:18:39Z White_Flame: pjb: or visualization/modeling.  or just plain GUIs
2018-05-25T22:18:41Z aeth: The old 2D APIs are not designed with performance on modern hardware in mind
2018-05-25T22:18:59Z aeth: e.g. You can do 2D stuff in X directly. You shouldn't.
2018-05-25T22:19:44Z White_Flame: pjb: for compute, is cuda winning out over opencl?
2018-05-25T22:20:01Z aeth: White_Flame: Only because Nvidia is winning over AMD/Intel.
2018-05-25T22:20:07Z pjb: In Deep Learning etc, I would say yes.
2018-05-25T22:20:37Z aeth: White_Flame: The future is (hopefully) any language you want compiled to SPIR-V and run in OpenCL or Vulkan compute (they're both from Khronos, so there'd be a heavy overlap in features)
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2018-05-25T22:21:10Z aeth: You'd still have the OpenCL or Vulkan API, but a lot of the toolchain could be pure Lisp, such as your own compiler to SPIR-V.
2018-05-25T22:21:34Z aeth: (OpenGL can also now use SPIR-V and also has compute functionality.)
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2018-05-25T22:22:05Z White_Flame: there seemed to be an implication of running graphics without libs like ogl, which read strangely
2018-05-25T22:22:22Z White_Flame: which prompted my initial question
2018-05-25T22:22:47Z White_Flame: specifically higher performance libs, not just dumb framebuffers
2018-05-25T22:23:12Z aeth: White_Flame: pjb was talking about potentially compiling stuff like libmesa in a C-on-CL compatibility layer.
2018-05-25T22:23:46Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_(computer_graphics)
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2018-05-25T22:24:12Z aeth: That would work for non-nvidia GPUs
2018-05-25T22:24:29Z aeth: (And some old nvidia GPUs if you can handle the performance loss)
2018-05-25T22:25:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: Speaking of JS, are there any JavaScript interpeters/compilers for Common Lisp?
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2018-05-25T22:26:15Z theemacsshibe[m]: I had a nice bot for a thing but cloudflare got in the way some time last night.
2018-05-25T22:26:17Z aeth: Yes, there is at least one, but it doesn't keep up with modern JS in features or performance.
2018-05-25T22:26:34Z White_Flame: aeth: well, mesa _is_ an OpenGL etc library itself ;)
2018-05-25T22:26:51Z aeth: JS is a language that cannot be fast without JIT. I guess you could "JIT" a language that is transpiled to CL because CL can recompile functions at runtime, though.
2018-05-25T22:27:22Z aeth: I'd be interested to know if anyone has attempted this.
2018-05-25T22:27:45Z White_Flame: I talk about it relatively frequently.  The usual target for runtime recompilation has been CLOS dispatch
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2018-05-25T22:28:29Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: deep in the old sources of firefox/mozillay, there's the sources of an implementation of an old JavaScript in CL.
2018-05-25T22:28:33Z aeth: White_Flame: I think you talk about JITing a CL implementation. I'm talking about using runtime recompilation in an existing AOT CL to emulate JIT in a language like JS or Lua that is being compiled to CL.
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2018-05-25T22:28:54Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: probably you'll have to locate an old version, because I guess they've pruned it.
2018-05-25T22:29:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: I couldn't navigate their version control thing.
2018-05-25T22:29:17Z White_Flame: aeth: there's actually little difference, and CLOS dispatch is an example of what you describe
2018-05-25T22:29:29Z White_Flame: (though it's not a _langauge_ it's jitting)
2018-05-25T22:29:37Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: it would be a nice project to take the latest javascript standard, and write an implementatio of it in CL targetting CL.
2018-05-25T22:30:14Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: an alternative project would be to write a LLVM backend in CL, and use the Javascript -> LLVM compiler.
2018-05-25T22:30:14Z aeth: Assuming the JIT emulation idea works
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2018-05-25T22:30:57Z aeth: pjb: If you wrote an LLVM backend in CL, you get way more than just JS. You also get Clasp.
2018-05-25T22:31:16Z pjb: of course.
2018-05-25T22:31:34Z pjb: and clang.  Does GNU emacs compile with clang?
2018-05-25T22:31:44Z pjb: IIRC, it uses a few GNU C extensions.
2018-05-25T22:31:59Z pjb: and my original purpose was to compile GNU emacs to CL…
2018-05-25T22:32:15Z aeth: Unfortunately, the Linux kernel doesn't quite compile with clang. If it did, you could have Linux-on-CL
2018-05-25T22:32:26Z aeth: Two things need to be ported to everything: Doom and Linux
2018-05-25T22:32:48Z pjb: There's an easier way: implement X86 in CL! Like https://bellard.org/jslinux/
2018-05-25T22:33:09Z White_Flame: yes, implementing x86 sounds reaaaaaally easy!
2018-05-25T22:33:22Z pjb: it's not too hard.
2018-05-25T22:33:31Z aeth: You could implement physics in CL
2018-05-25T22:33:35Z pjb: I wrote one in 68000 on Mac in 1985…
2018-05-25T22:33:51Z pjb: The problem was more the bugs in the IBM-PC BIOS…
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2018-05-25T22:34:12Z White_Flame: x86 is a goofball pile of hodgepodge
2018-05-25T22:34:15Z pjb: Of course, you'd want at least 486 for linux…
2018-05-25T22:35:05Z White_Flame: 68k is clean as a congressman's official criminal background
2018-05-25T22:35:52Z White_Flame: but yeah, you can always pick a subset that something happens to use, instead of trying to reimplement all of it
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2018-05-25T22:37:10Z White_Flame: I also shudder to imagine implementing an interface from CL through x86 interpreter through JSLinux through node.js
2018-05-25T22:37:16Z pjb: the only problem with the 68000 is that it loses information on some traps, so you cannot write a multitasking OS on it.  There was a unix workstation using 2 68000 with one running one clock late to kludge this bug.
2018-05-25T22:37:38Z White_Flame: is that 68000 only, not 68020+?
2018-05-25T22:38:09Z White_Flame: (also, Amiga scoffs your assessment)
2018-05-25T22:38:18Z White_Flame: (as it guru meditates)
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2018-05-25T22:40:03Z pjb: it's possible, I don't remember well enough.
2018-05-25T22:40:28Z pjb: But IIRC, this 2-68000 system was before the 68020, so…
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2018-05-26T03:10:31Z White_Flame: do any of the lisp webservers do protocol sharing on their port?  ie, if the first line isn't valid http, then pass it off to another protocol handler?
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2018-05-26T04:52:16Z vtomole: Anyone here familiar with cl-graph?
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2018-05-26T06:08:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-26T06:35:42Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:49Z eyNoriusNotorius: THIS IS AN EMERGENCY NOTICE THIS IS NOT SPAM: THIS NOTICE IS CURRENTLY GOING OUT TO ALL CHANNELS THROUGH THE FREENODE EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION SYSTEM: GRUMBLE HAS INADVERTENTLY NOT RESET THE FREENODE SECURITY PASSWORD CAUSING A BREAK IN FREENODE SECURITY WHERE ALL PASSWORDS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. PLEASE SEE GRUMLE IN #FREENODE FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO SECURE YOUR ACCOUNT!!
2018-05-26T08:53:53Z eyNoriusNotorius: xh4 lumm fikka vap1 jdz damke dddddd random-nick Tristam Patzy siraben Lord_Nightmare shka_ jfrancis vlatkoB octobanana karlosz johnvonneumann_ nika rippa Oddity emaczen FreeBirdLjj sauvin schoppenhauer earl-ducaine iqubic Khisanth noffle d4ryus2 terpri dmiles karswell msb kajo sjl Blkt fe[nl]ix nirved scymtym MichaelRaskin thinkpad jeosol raynold easye makomo AntiSpamMeta eschatologist gigetoo myrkraverk oleo zooey Kevslinger Younder drot sellout 
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2018-05-26T08:59:16Z makomo: late morning!
2018-05-26T08:59:34Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2018-05-26T09:00:34Z makomo: beach: it seems i won't have enough time to do my lab thingy in CLIM, but i might try it later on just to learn CLIM
2018-05-26T09:00:57Z beach: Sure.
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2018-05-26T09:01:20Z serichsen: Moin
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2018-05-26T09:01:29Z beach: Hello serichsen.
2018-05-26T09:01:31Z makomo: Hi
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2018-05-26T09:06:54Z johnvonneumann_: 12am mornin
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2018-05-26T14:47:53Z jjkola: hi
2018-05-26T14:48:06Z on_ion: hi
2018-05-26T14:48:25Z oleo: sup sup
2018-05-26T14:49:06Z on_ion: feeling productive!
2018-05-26T14:50:10Z oleo: then produce
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2018-05-26T14:51:44Z on_ion: after coffee and breakfast =)
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2018-05-26T15:23:00Z beach: Xach: What support do we currently have for OpenType in Common Lisp?
2018-05-26T15:23:40Z beach: Xach: Do we have code for reading an OpenType file into some data structure with a well-defined protocol, for instance?
2018-05-26T15:26:42Z oleo: ahha
2018-05-26T15:27:00Z oleo: nope it's not because of no applicable method
2018-05-26T15:27:56Z beach: So what is it?
2018-05-26T15:28:27Z beach: oleo: You began in #clim and you are now in #lisp.  Some people might not see the connection.
2018-05-26T15:28:58Z oleo: yah sorry
2018-05-26T15:29:05Z oleo: i'll try once more
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2018-05-26T15:29:23Z oleo: i see i changed some additional args....
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2018-05-26T15:32:38Z oleo: reverting back and trying again, and then i'll see if it's really about synonym streams or some other thing
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2018-05-26T17:59:29Z aeth: Where in the standard is this made into valid behavior? (let ((foobar 42)) (destructuring-bind (&rest foo) foobar foo)) => 42
2018-05-26T18:00:21Z aeth: I think every other time it expects a list.
2018-05-26T18:01:14Z aeth: (Except, of course, &body behaves the same way)
2018-05-26T18:02:08Z oleo: &rest foo is like optional list ?
2018-05-26T18:02:48Z oleo: depending on if foo is a singular value or multiple values
2018-05-26T18:02:51Z oleo: ?
2018-05-26T18:02:55Z aeth: (let ((foobar (list 42 43 44))) (destructuring-bind (&rest foo) foobar foo)) => (42 43 44)
2018-05-26T18:03:02Z oleo: yah
2018-05-26T18:03:06Z oleo: so......
2018-05-26T18:03:14Z aeth: The latter example is expected behavior.
2018-05-26T18:03:34Z Bike: the page on destructuring lambda lists says they're like macro lambda lists
2018-05-26T18:03:49Z Bike: and the page on macro lambda lists says "It is permissible for a macro form (or a subexpression of a macro form) to be a dotted list only when (... &rest var) or (... . var) is used to match it"
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2018-05-26T18:08:56Z oleo: so it gets to see (42 43 44 . foo) ?
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2018-05-26T18:28:22Z xeLunatrius: Global Notice] Hello freenode, you may have noticed 2 days ago many users got logged out of their NickServ accounts. After our investigation, we have come to the conclusion one or more of our sponsored servers have been compromised. Please change your password IMMEDIATELY. More details are available in #freenode with the command !help
2018-05-26T18:28:22Z xeLunatrius: Global Notice] Hello freenode, you may have noticed 2 days ago many users got logged out of their NickServ accounts. After our investigation, we have come to the conclusion one or more of our sponsored servers have been compromised. Please change your password IMMEDIATELY. More details are available in #freenode with the command !help
2018-05-26T18:28:22Z xeLunatrius: Global Notice] Hello freenode, you may have noticed 2 days ago many users got logged out of their NickServ accounts. After our investigation, we have come to the conclusion one or more of our sponsored servers have been compromised. Please change your password IMMEDIATELY. More details are available in #freenode with the command !help
2018-05-26T18:28:22Z xeLunatrius: Global Notice] Hello freenode, you may have noticed 2 days ago many users got logged out of their NickServ accounts. After our investigation, we have come to the conclusion one or more of our sponsored servers have been compromised. Please change your password IMMEDIATELY. More details are available in #freenode with the command !help
2018-05-26T18:28:22Z xeLunatrius: Global Notice] Hello freenode, you may have noticed 2 days ago many users got logged out of their NickServ accounts. After our investigation, we have come to the conclusion one or more of our sponsored servers have been compromised. Please change your password IMMEDIATELY. More details are available in #freenode with the command !help
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2018-05-26T21:47:04Z aeth: When is the spec going to be updated to have FORMAT add support for this? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Localization/Localization_and_Plurals
2018-05-26T21:48:03Z aeth: https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/33/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html
2018-05-26T21:48:41Z Bike: never
2018-05-26T21:49:13Z aeth: :o
2018-05-26T21:49:34Z on_ion: CL spec? =)
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2018-05-26T21:53:13Z antoszka: aeth: feel free to write code implementing such pluralization (but keep in mind it's different to what FORMAT attempts).
2018-05-26T21:54:00Z antoszka: aeth: I think I discussed that with beach 2 or 3 ELS-es ago with regards to his ongoing implementation efforts.
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2018-05-26T21:56:30Z aeth: My backlog is constantly at "at least two years" and format++ would be constantly located at the end of such a backlog, so I'd always be at least two years away from starting it.
2018-05-26T21:56:32Z antoszka: The mozilla library just keeps rules + forms of a limited number of words (like seconds/minutes/hours/days/months/years + numeric quantifier), FORMAT attempts to make a general prural, which can be totally irregular and would require keeping dictionary tables at hand for a given language.
2018-05-26T21:57:48Z antoszka: So it's probably a fun effort, but doesn't seem that useful in the long run (given the necessary baggage that'd have to accompany it)
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2018-05-26T21:58:00Z aeth: You'd probably have to mix it with a translation library not unlike gettext.
2018-05-26T21:58:48Z aeth: What's fun about such a library in CL is that you could do it entirely at compile time. (Although if you made that decision then string-using functions might need recompilation if the language was changed at runtime.)
2018-05-26T21:58:50Z antoszka: Yep.
2018-05-26T21:58:52Z jmercouris: anyone know how to get the IP of a request in caveman2?
2018-05-26T22:01:50Z aeth: I wonder what the best way to do translations in CL would be. Something like a hash table probably doesn't give enough guarantees. Putting all of the strings that represent a translation into one big string and working with start/end indices would probably be the best way to do it. Light scripts using the library could then just use subseq and more elaborate UIs could be aware of substrings and potentially be non-consing there.
2018-05-26T22:02:29Z aeth: That might be too large in memory, though.
2018-05-26T22:02:32Z White_Flame: it's not really a language-specific problem
2018-05-26T22:02:59Z nirved: some words have multiple plural forms
2018-05-26T22:03:03Z White_Flame: it's a big undertaking in any language, and any project itself probably has a subset of such translations it's really interested in
2018-05-26T22:03:11Z White_Flame: *programming langauge
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2018-05-26T22:06:48Z splendide-mendax: hello i did (inspect *foo*) and now inside a different(?) repl ... how do i quickly get back? i am on slime/sbcl
2018-05-26T22:08:09Z nirved: jmercouris: maybe lack.request:request-remote-addr
2018-05-26T22:08:31Z jmercouris: yeah, I just got to that :D
2018-05-26T22:08:40Z jmercouris: https://github.com/fukamachi/lack/blob/master/src/request.lisp#L23
2018-05-26T22:08:44Z jmercouris: nirved: let me give it a try, thanks
2018-05-26T22:09:40Z jmercouris: splendide-mendax: "q" RET
2018-05-26T22:10:29Z splendide-mendax: jmercouris: ah i should have tried that first .. thanks!
2018-05-26T22:10:48Z jmercouris: splendide-mendax: no problem! it works in a lot of programs, always worth a try, that and ESC
2018-05-26T22:11:09Z jmercouris: nirved: that seems to be it
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2018-05-26T22:29:07Z p_l: aeth: I believe best option would be to provide hooks into various things like format routines for pluralization etc., and possibly a gettext-like macro that has local cache so there's one lookup and it's done
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2018-05-26T22:41:53Z aeth: p_l: The current design I'm thinking of for the macro is that each language's translation for the application gets compiled into one string. The gettext-like string is used as the key, like in gettext, and at either read time or compile time is turned into the real "key", which is the substring range for the given language's giant string. So e.g. 427 and 483.
2018-05-26T22:42:27Z aeth: With this design, it's not yet determined how to fill in "hello my name is FOO" and saying "you have 3 unread FOOS"
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2018-05-26T22:45:35Z jmercouris: so, I'm trying to use https://github.com/KDr2/cl-fastcgi
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2018-05-26T22:45:48Z jmercouris: but it seems they aren't searching for my dylib in the location in which it is installed on my machine
2018-05-26T22:45:58Z jmercouris: in this case, what are my options? do I have to make my own fork?
2018-05-26T22:46:05Z aeth: p_l: And it would be best if the user of the function decides what to do with it. e.g. give it the values latin-translation-string, 427, and 483. Naively, it could subseq. Or the UI could be more sophisticated and go over the range in a non-consing way. Perhaps your hook idea is the best and a fourth value can be given, the formatting-rules function or something.
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2018-05-26T22:47:41Z aeth: And since latin-translation-string would be generated at compile time, it could be given a type. Optimizing implementations like SBCL thus wouldn't need to bounds check if the user function mentions that type because it would know it's something like (simple-array character (1234))
2018-05-26T22:49:53Z aeth: I guess this last part would require recompilation if the language was switched unless they were all padded to be as long as the longest translation.
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2018-05-26T22:51:24Z aeth: (Alternatively, put everything in one big string.)
2018-05-26T22:54:55Z on_ion: jmercouris: +pull request ?
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2018-05-26T22:56:27Z jmercouris: on_ion: always a possibility...
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2018-05-27T03:13:15Z potatonomicon: how could I go about writing a macro that takes its arguments like let does? that is, taking an s-expression and splitting it up so the elements can be used independently
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2018-05-27T03:15:13Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: good question
2018-05-27T03:15:24Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: the macro would just take in a list, and you'd compute how it gets split up
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2018-05-27T03:16:29Z potatonomicon: what would I use to do the splitting?
2018-05-27T03:16:43Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: look at this example implementation of LET:
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning: CL-USER> (defmacro my-let (bindings &body body)
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning:            `(funcall (lambda ,(mapcar #'first bindings) ,@body)
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning:                      ,@(mapcar #'second bindings)))
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning: MY-LET
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning: CL-USER> (my-let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y))
2018-05-27T03:16:44Z stylewarning: 3
2018-05-27T03:16:58Z stylewarning: Here, I took BINDINGS as an argument to the macro, and I split it up using FIRST and SECOND.
2018-05-27T03:17:27Z stylewarning: BINDINGS I expect to be a list of two-element lists from the user, like ((x 1) (y 2))
2018-05-27T03:18:14Z potatonomicon: alright
2018-05-27T03:18:50Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: does that make sense? The macro MY-LET takes an argument called BINDINGS which is the list ((x 1) (y 2))
2018-05-27T03:18:56Z potatonomicon: why are first and second uninterned?
2018-05-27T03:19:08Z potatonomicon: it makes sense for the most part
2018-05-27T03:19:09Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: they're not, #'X means "the function X"
2018-05-27T03:19:15Z potatonomicon: oh right
2018-05-27T03:19:21Z stylewarning: #'first means "the function FIRST"
2018-05-27T03:19:46Z stylewarning: try (macroexpand-1 '(my-let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y)))
2018-05-27T03:20:00Z potatonomicon: ... are first and second buit in cl functions?
2018-05-27T03:20:04Z stylewarning: Yep!
2018-05-27T03:20:15Z potatonomicon: ok that makes more sense then :p
2018-05-27T03:20:23Z stylewarning: CL-USER> (first '(x 1))
2018-05-27T03:20:23Z stylewarning: X
2018-05-27T03:20:23Z stylewarning: CL-USER> (second '(x 1))
2018-05-27T03:20:23Z stylewarning: 1
2018-05-27T03:20:31Z potatonomicon: cool thanks
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2018-05-27T03:21:02Z stylewarning: (here, I'm faking LET by making a LAMBDA function and calling it on the values of the MY-LET-bindings)
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2018-05-27T03:23:22Z potatonomicon: I am trying to make something that works like let and when together, though there is probably something that does this already
2018-05-27T03:26:18Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: what kind of thing are you interested in writing?
2018-05-27T03:26:24Z stylewarning: what should this let/when look like
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2018-05-27T03:26:59Z potatonomicon: same as let for the most part but will test the bindings before executing the body
2018-05-27T03:27:25Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: so like:  (when-let ((x ...) (y ...)) ...)?
2018-05-27T03:27:31Z potatonomicon: yeah
2018-05-27T03:27:46Z stylewarning: and it tests if X is true, binds it, if Y is true, binds it, etc before executing the body?
2018-05-27T03:27:54Z potatonomicon: yeah
2018-05-27T03:28:00Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: then what might the expansion of that look like?
2018-05-27T03:28:27Z stylewarning: How about:  (let ((x ...)) (when x (let ((y ...)) (when y <body>))))
2018-05-27T03:28:35Z potatonomicon: well really i was planning on binding everything and then testing
2018-05-27T03:28:42Z stylewarning: ah, you could do that
2018-05-27T03:29:07Z stylewarning: what would that look like?  (let ((x ...) (y ...)) (when (and x y) <body>)) ?
2018-05-27T03:29:17Z potatonomicon: yeah probably
2018-05-27T03:29:29Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: sounds simple enough!
2018-05-27T03:29:55Z stylewarning: (defmacro when-let (bindings &body body) ???)
2018-05-27T03:30:10Z potatonomicon: though your first suggestion may be better, since that would do proper short circuiting, which may or may not be expected?
2018-05-27T03:30:26Z stylewarning: I'd probably expect short-circuiting myself
2018-05-27T03:30:34Z stylewarning: but the second version is easier to implement
2018-05-27T03:30:54Z potatonomicon: I think I'll go for that to start with
2018-05-27T03:31:26Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: well BINDINGS is the same as LET bindings
2018-05-27T03:31:39Z stylewarning: so we might start with `(let ,bindings (when ??? ,@body))
2018-05-27T03:31:42Z stylewarning: what would ??? be?
2018-05-27T03:32:21Z potatonomicon: the identifier part of the bindings if I am not mistaken
2018-05-27T03:32:34Z stylewarning: yep, if we have a list of pairs, how do we get the first element of each pair?
2018-05-27T03:33:21Z potatonomicon: (mapcar #'first bindings) like you said wouldn't it
2018-05-27T03:33:29Z stylewarning: yep
2018-05-27T03:33:33Z stylewarning: so that's it, you're done
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2018-05-27T03:34:16Z potatonomicon: that wouldn't work with multiple bindings right
2018-05-27T03:34:16Z stylewarning: (defmacro when-let (bindings &body body) `(let ,bindings (when (and ,@(mapcar #'first bindings)) ,@body)))
2018-05-27T03:36:54Z potatonomicon: oh, wait, I see the @ infront of mapcar
2018-05-27T03:37:04Z stylewarning: yes, we need to embed it in an (and ...)
2018-05-27T03:37:20Z stylewarning: we have a list of variable names like (X Y Z ...), and we want (AND X Y Z ...)
2018-05-27T03:37:25Z stylewarning: we don't want (AND (X Y Z ...))
2018-05-27T03:37:40Z stylewarning: so we have to embed with the ,@ (comma splice) operator
2018-05-27T03:37:47Z potatonomicon: ohhh ok, so mapcar is returning each, not just one, right
2018-05-27T03:37:57Z stylewarning: correct
2018-05-27T03:38:00Z potatonomicon: or a list, whatever
2018-05-27T03:38:06Z stylewarning: (mapcar #'first '((a 1) (b 2)) ==> (A B)
2018-05-27T03:38:17Z potatonomicon: yeah
2018-05-27T03:38:17Z stylewarning: with enough parentheses :)
2018-05-27T03:38:35Z potatonomicon: thats pretty handy
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2018-05-27T03:38:46Z stylewarning: MAPCAR is pretty useful, so is ,@
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2018-05-27T03:39:08Z potatonomicon: Yeah I have used @ in other macros
2018-05-27T03:39:15Z stylewarning: ,@ not @!
2018-05-27T03:39:16Z stylewarning: :)
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2018-05-27T03:39:46Z potatonomicon: well, isn't it two different operations happening
2018-05-27T03:39:54Z stylewarning: nope, just one
2018-05-27T03:40:02Z potatonomicon: expansion and unquoting
2018-05-27T03:40:32Z stylewarning: It's really one operator
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2018-05-27T03:41:45Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: but that thinking won't be harmful :)
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2018-05-27T03:45:51Z potatonomicon: Well, thanks for the help :>
2018-05-27T03:46:43Z stylewarning: potatonomicon: lmk if you have more questions
2018-05-27T03:47:58Z potatonomicon: I have quite a few functions that will use this so it sould make things a little more concise :q
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2018-05-27T04:20:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-27T04:37:52Z potatonomicon: hoy
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2018-05-27T04:41:47Z aeth: Heh. It's actually more efficient in SBCL to pass in a struct and have to redo a few things than to pass in various parts of a struct to a function. Of course it is.
2018-05-27T04:42:50Z aeth: 877 bytes vs. 864 bytes in disassemble, but disassemble doesn't tell the whole story. sb-disassem:dissassemble-code-component does. 1029 vs. 1530 bytes.
2018-05-27T04:42:58Z potatonomicon: one pointer vs a lot of pointers? or does it copy
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2018-05-27T04:43:15Z aeth: If you pass a struct, it typechecks the struct. If you pass a bunch of fields from the struct, it type checks *each one you pass in*
2018-05-27T04:43:41Z potatonomicon: makes sense
2018-05-27T04:43:56Z aeth: 8 parameters having to be type checked vs. 4 in this case. Making the API a lot more complicated while also making it slower.
2018-05-27T04:44:01Z beach: potatonomicon: In Common Lisp, nothing is implicitly copied.
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2018-05-27T05:35:23Z jjkola: hi
2018-05-27T05:36:06Z jjkola: is planet.lisp.org being down a known issue?
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2018-05-27T08:11:07Z bendersteed: hi everyone, I'm learning lisp and try to create a simple web app with hunchentoot
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2018-05-27T08:11:48Z bendersteed: is there a way to create handlers with the (define-easy-handler) macro for a list of objects
2018-05-27T08:13:31Z beach: Hello bendersteed.  Weekends are a bit slow here.  It is possible that the people with knowledge of Hunchentoot are doing other things.
2018-05-27T08:13:57Z bendersteed: it's ok, thanks for your response
2018-05-27T08:15:04Z bendersteed: in general treating macros in loop is kind of sketchy
2018-05-27T08:15:16Z beach: How so?
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2018-05-27T08:19:32Z _death: bendersteed: if the list is known prior to "run time", you can have a macro that expands to `(progn ,@list-of-define-easy-handler-forms) .. otherwise, it may be better to create your own dispatcher
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2018-05-27T08:29:32Z beach: bendersteed: In what way is "treating" macros in loop "sketchy"?
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2018-05-27T08:30:15Z bendersteed: beach: i'm not really familiar with how to treat variables etc
2018-05-27T08:30:54Z beach: If you are uncertain, just ask.
2018-05-27T08:31:54Z bendersteed: thanks, I'll try to clear a bit things by playing so that I have on-point questions
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2018-05-27T08:32:19Z beach: OK.
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2018-05-27T08:40:41Z beach: What is the state of CL-UNICODE with respect to recent versions of the Unicode standard?
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2018-05-27T10:37:02Z Xach: beach: none that i know of.
2018-05-27T10:37:26Z Xach: beach: but some portion of OTF files are TTF files with a thin wrapper, and I don't think that wrapper is difficult
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2018-05-27T10:37:56Z beach: Got it.  Thanks.
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2018-05-27T10:55:29Z beach: Xach: Would you consider that to be a valid project for someone?  I.e. define a protocol for accessing the information in an OpenType font by first reading the contents into memory and then calling various functions to retrieve that information?
2018-05-27T10:59:24Z Xach: beach: yes, though for my own project, i loaded only (some) metadata in memory and loaded other things on demand (with caching)
2018-05-27T10:59:37Z beach: I understand.
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2018-05-27T11:00:15Z Xach: some font files are many megabytes of raw, lightly compressed data, and loading them in memory to access only a few glyphs would be costly up front.
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2018-05-27T11:03:16Z beach: I typically ignore such issues, counting on the virtual-memory system to do a good job, on RAM being sufficiently inexpensive, and on the Common Lisp system to have a good memory allocator.  This is not necessarily true for all combinations of operating system and Common Lisp implementations, but it may well be by the time such a project is finished.
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2018-05-27T11:07:49Z MichaelRaskin: I think for the OS allocator to manage caching the data from HDD well, you need to mmap the file, not just read it.
2018-05-27T11:08:59Z beach: That might be true.  But that would be messy from a programming point of view.  I prefer to parse the entire thing into a native data structure.
2018-05-27T11:10:52Z shka_: hello all
2018-05-27T11:10:54Z beach: On the other hand, RAM is around 10€ per GigaByte.  So "many megabytes" may add up to say 0.05€.
2018-05-27T11:11:06Z beach: Hell shka.
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2018-05-27T11:12:14Z beach: For that saving to be worth the time spent on improving the memory use, There would have to be thousands of simultaneous users using several fonts that each contains "many megabytes" of data.
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2018-05-27T11:13:36Z Xach: For my use case it was worth the time savings.
2018-05-27T11:13:46Z beach: I believe you.
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2018-05-27T11:37:13Z kolb: I would chime in and say I know very well which applications are an issue on RAM.
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2018-05-27T11:40:06Z kolb: Years ago I had to retire my 900mhz 2gig ram arm notebook because I had a clojure gig and I couldn’t start the JVM. Today (4gigs) I get into swapping because of Firefox + R with a big-ish dataset + Pharo running a rather hungry app
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2018-05-27T12:17:53Z pjb: kolb: that said, you can still use lynx…
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2018-05-27T12:46:29Z python476: hey lispers
2018-05-27T12:46:48Z python476: I have a generic question regarding programming semantics (-ish)
2018-05-27T12:47:33Z python476: i was wondering if there was a language that accepted mutable anything for local scope, but by default considered everything from outer scopes immutable
2018-05-27T12:47:58Z python476: as a safety yet speed friendly mechanism
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2018-05-27T12:48:09Z python476: (this comes from reading about rustlang a bit)
2018-05-27T12:48:47Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's a lot of languages in one question.
2018-05-27T12:49:51Z python476: so it's been tried and used a lot already ?
2018-05-27T12:50:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: I don't think immutable outer structures would speed things up a lot. Typically you pass pointers around with objects and mutating one would be just as fast as reading.
2018-05-27T12:50:36Z python476: but it's always useful to assume these aren't mutable
2018-05-27T12:50:48Z python476: you can freeze, isolate, copy, do whatever you want on the side
2018-05-27T12:50:59Z python476: (at least that's my fuzzy understanding)
2018-05-27T12:50:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: I was referencing mentioning rust, asking lispers and having python in your username.
2018-05-27T12:51:03Z pjb: python476: indeed, this is how you should consider things, when you are writing code yourself.
2018-05-27T12:51:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: Yes, sometimes you will just rebind the variable and not mutate it.
2018-05-27T12:51:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: Sometimes there's an edge case where you do need mutation, which is where you need it and why languages may not pick it up.
2018-05-27T12:51:45Z python476: theemacsshibe[m]: oh hehe, I couldn't find rustlang channel, and lisp being used so often for semantic exploration .. I allowed myself to ask here :)
2018-05-27T12:51:47Z pjb: python476: there's no language that ensure it, but you could write a lambda macro that would signal a warning or an error if you tried to mutate a parameter or a free variable.
2018-05-27T12:52:07Z python476: (and my nick is an unfortunate accident, cons-ider me a lisper first :)
2018-05-27T12:52:29Z python476: pjb: thanks
2018-05-27T12:53:03Z python476: i thought there would be a nickname for this kind of hygiene, something I could lookup on springer, google scholar or similar
2018-05-27T12:53:05Z pjb: in fact, since the implementation defun defmacro defmethod defgeneric probably use cl:lambda, you will have to define your own version of them too.
2018-05-27T12:53:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: Maybe if you use one of those wanky pure functional languages you can get immutability.
2018-05-27T12:53:49Z pjb: you may have a look at cl-stepper for an example.
2018-05-27T12:54:54Z python476: theemacsshibe[m]: common, purely functional is nice
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2018-05-27T13:03:41Z drmeister: clhs documentation
2018-05-27T13:03:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
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2018-05-27T13:03:47Z drmeister: Hello everyone
2018-05-27T13:03:56Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2018-05-27T13:03:56Z shka_: drmeister: hello!
2018-05-27T13:04:03Z TMA: hello, drmeister
2018-05-27T13:04:09Z shka_: beach: i have question regarding flexichains
2018-05-27T13:04:16Z drmeister: Does anyone have a clear description of the difference between (documentation #'list t) and (documentation #'list 'function) ?
2018-05-27T13:04:20Z beach: shka_: Go ahead.
2018-05-27T13:04:23Z drmeister: In sbcl they return the same thing.
2018-05-27T13:04:35Z shka_: is there a way to sort it's content?
2018-05-27T13:04:55Z beach: shka_: Not easily, no.
2018-05-27T13:04:58Z drmeister: In ecl and clasp (documentation #'list t) returns NIL and (documentation #'list 'function) returns a string of documentation.
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2018-05-27T13:05:15Z shka_: drmeister: (defun something ()) (defclass something ())
2018-05-27T13:05:16Z beach: drmeister: That doesn't look right.
2018-05-27T13:05:40Z shka_: oh, i see
2018-05-27T13:05:41Z drmeister: The ECL/Clasp response?   I didn't think so.   That's part of what has been confusing me.
2018-05-27T13:06:24Z beach: drmeister: The second parameter being something like 'function is used only when the first parameter is a name, and not an object.
2018-05-27T13:07:05Z drmeister: beach: Is that so that if there is a function and say a compiler macro with the same name - you can get the function docstring?
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2018-05-27T13:07:51Z beach: drmeister: More generally, if the first thing is a name, you need to say whether you want its definition as a function, as a class, as a variable, etc.
2018-05-27T13:08:04Z drmeister: Ok, that makes perfect sense.
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2018-05-27T13:09:30Z beach: clhs documentation
2018-05-27T13:09:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-05-27T13:09:48Z beach: drmeister: Look at the second method signature.
2018-05-27T13:10:19Z beach: drmeister: If the first argument is a function and the second argument is the symbol FUNCTION, then this method applies.
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2018-05-27T13:11:13Z beach: Now, it doesn't say that the same thing will be returned by this method as what is returned by the first one, but that seems a reasonable thing to do.
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2018-05-27T13:16:17Z drmeister: Ok.
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2018-05-27T13:20:17Z python476: drmeister: are you the spirolygomer researcher
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2018-05-27T13:20:36Z drmeister: Indeed I am
2018-05-27T13:20:43Z python476: well hello
2018-05-27T13:21:00Z python476: enjoyed your talks (more for the biochem side than the lisp one even though it was cool too)
2018-05-27T13:21:11Z python476: happy to see you
2018-05-27T13:21:22Z python476: I hope you'll make more talks
2018-05-27T13:21:49Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8RPdY3c5/1527427299.JPG
2018-05-27T13:22:10Z python476: seconded
2018-05-27T13:22:11Z drmeister: As of a few weeks ago it's official - I'm a "Molecular LEGO" researcher.
2018-05-27T13:22:35Z drmeister: On the right is Sir Fraser Stoddard, 2016 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry.
2018-05-27T13:22:38Z python476: completely off the cool-title chart
2018-05-27T13:22:58Z python476: thanks, I have zero knowledge about people in chemistry
2018-05-27T13:23:10Z python476: (even though the name kinda rings a bell)
2018-05-27T13:23:18Z drmeister: He coined the term in the '80s and almost got sued by Lego Corp.
2018-05-27T13:24:06Z drmeister: Rather he got threatened by them in the '80s.
2018-05-27T13:24:08Z python476: a clear marketing team error
2018-05-27T13:24:20Z drmeister: Yeah - hopefully they are more enlightened these days.
2018-05-27T13:25:06Z drmeister: Anyway - I'm glad you enjoyed the presentation.
2018-05-27T13:25:36Z python476: a protein ~repl, hard not to be
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2018-05-27T13:27:05Z drmeister: I'd expand that to - any molecule repl.
2018-05-27T13:27:27Z python476: hehe indeed
2018-05-27T13:28:04Z drmeister: Things are taking off - we got a lot of grant funding in the last couple of months and I'm starting a company.
2018-05-27T13:28:14Z drmeister: I'll need Common Lisp programmers with chemistry knowlege.
2018-05-27T13:28:27Z drmeister: knowledge
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2018-05-27T13:28:56Z python476: I don't want to divert #lisp much more, but just in case https://www.irif.fr/users/nschaban/index <= makes dna folding computation, when I saw a tiny conf with him, couldn't stop thinking about you
2018-05-27T13:29:10Z python476: drmeister: where are you based ? US ?
2018-05-27T13:29:23Z drmeister: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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2018-05-27T13:29:44Z python476: after quantum computer, protein scaffolds.. lisp is coming back by the deep end
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2018-05-27T13:30:58Z drmeister: Chemistry is fundamental and universal - the language that works with it should be as fundamental.
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2018-05-27T13:31:56Z python476: warning, lambda calculist may come and rant
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2018-05-27T17:07:50Z shka_: so, I have set's of aggregation operations, groupping operations and so one, ala SQL
2018-05-27T17:08:22Z shka_: i can do stuff like (average (group-by data #'first))
2018-05-27T17:08:32Z shka_: and it is lazy evaluated and stuff
2018-05-27T17:08:39Z shka_: it works
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2018-05-27T17:08:59Z shka_: but my implementation seems to be more complicated then it should be
2018-05-27T17:09:49Z shka_: i construct graph of 'aggregator' objects and each element in range flows trough it
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2018-05-27T17:10:18Z shka_: sometimes multiple iterations are required to finish the job
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2018-05-27T17:10:56Z shka_: i was wondering if anyone here worked on something like this, and how he approached this problem
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2018-05-27T17:55:23Z drmeister: How does one determine if a lisp stream (that is the reading end of a pipe) has data available for reading?
2018-05-27T17:55:55Z drmeister: Is it cl:peek?
2018-05-27T17:56:13Z drmeister: peek-char
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2018-05-27T17:57:56Z jackdaniel: drmeister: not so easy
2018-05-27T17:58:19Z jackdaniel: if you open pipe with blocking (default), if there is nothing in the pipe your thread will hang waiting for io
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2018-05-27T17:58:41Z jackdaniel: if you open pipe without blocking (among other gothas) if there is no input you'll have EOF
2018-05-27T17:59:26Z jackdaniel: I was working on that lately in ECL, you may check out these last changes (in C code)
2018-05-27T17:59:37Z jackdaniel: I've resigned of using peek-char in listen for that very reason
2018-05-27T17:59:40Z drmeister: Ok - I have a parent process and I forked a child.   The child is writing output to a stream that the parent has the other end to - I'd like to know when characters are available so that I can have the parent read those characters and keep the pipe buffer from overfilling.    This can't be blocking because I have many children to deal with.
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2018-05-27T18:00:14Z jackdaniel: no, for different reason – you have to use peek-byte
2018-05-27T18:00:43Z drmeister: peek-byte?  Is that an ECL thing?
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2018-05-27T18:00:54Z jackdaniel: no, ECL doesn't have it implemented at all
2018-05-27T18:01:01Z jackdaniel: it is rather an ommision in the spec
2018-05-27T18:01:07Z jackdaniel: omission* ?
2018-05-27T18:01:52Z jackdaniel: I'm just saying, that working with fifo pipes has some gotchas.
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2018-05-27T18:08:26Z jeosol: morning guys
2018-05-27T18:08:57Z beach: Hello jeosol.
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2018-05-27T18:11:45Z jeosol: what CL db ORM do you guys use?
2018-05-27T18:12:46Z jackdaniel: many people will tell you, that whole ORM concept is a misunderstanding :-)
2018-05-27T18:13:20Z jeosol: I recently started looking at mito for the postgresql example (movie database). I have a table actor which has a column actor-id in the imported table; naturally this should the pk. I have a mismatch of columns on the lisp side and actual table. how to deal with this?
2018-05-27T18:13:30Z jeosol: jackdaniel? Really?
2018-05-27T18:14:00Z jackdaniel: jeosol: sure, it is nothing else but transpilation. usually database languages are declarative, while oop is a different paradigm
2018-05-27T18:14:14Z jackdaniel: transpiling between languages of different paradigm may lead to a disaster
2018-05-27T18:14:29Z jackdaniel: (as in: software which has a terrible performance and bugs)
2018-05-27T18:15:00Z jeosol: Oh, I have used clsql in the past but I have heard complaints against it. The thing is I am using a 'defmodel' type macro that given creates a bunch of functions to access columns, search query, etc for a given table, as in django tables
2018-05-27T18:15:07Z jeosol: jackdaniel: ok, I see your point
2018-05-27T18:15:31Z jeosol: I am hoping it is not too much headache overall, and want something, some model, that is manageable
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2018-05-27T18:16:21Z MichaelRaskin: Defining a cross-cutting data schema and generating some parts of CLSQL FDML code (and hand-writing some parts) worked well for me.
2018-05-27T18:17:44Z jeosol: MichaelRaskin: So you use clsql more often?
2018-05-27T18:18:29Z MichaelRaskin: Just not its OODDL/OODML
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2018-05-27T18:18:40Z jeosol: I did like and enjoy using CLSQL, but have seen complaints about bit-rot, security, etc
2018-05-27T18:18:43Z MichaelRaskin: CLSQL FDML/FDDL — yes
2018-05-27T18:19:12Z jeosol: ok, I see.
2018-05-27T18:19:14Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I only used it with CLSQL and PostgreSQL
2018-05-27T18:19:19Z MichaelRaskin: Oops
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2018-05-27T18:19:24Z MichaelRaskin: SQLite and PostgreSQL
2018-05-27T18:19:41Z MichaelRaskin: I guess bitrot might be worse for other backends…
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2018-05-27T18:20:03Z jeosol: I use mostly Postgresql
2018-05-27T18:20:23Z MichaelRaskin: Security… well, I think CLSQL has sane enough escaping.
2018-05-27T18:21:16Z pfdietz: Downloaded Allegro CL 10.1 free version.  Haven't run the random tester on Allegro in years.
2018-05-27T18:21:22Z MichaelRaskin: You might need to define your own query fragments for advanced queries, and there you'd better make sure you do use CLSQL escaping facilities for input parameters
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2018-05-27T18:22:43Z jeosol: MichaelRaskin: thanks for the info. May need to return back. Yes, I do use other advanced queries.
2018-05-27T18:23:32Z jeosol: MichaelRaskin: But recently, because I can have many tables, I am trying to use some macro to automatically define a bunch of functions that I'll normally need for each table.
2018-05-27T18:23:55Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, that sounds natural
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2018-05-27T18:24:52Z jeosol: MichaelRaskin: Thanks Mike
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2018-05-27T18:28:02Z jeosol: anyone working with machine learning/ai type problems in lisp? I have discussed on here about picking up CLML library but still resolving licence related issues with former maintainers/owners. May also need to set up a small task force, not like a committee through
2018-05-27T18:28:44Z jeosol: I have one potential member in jmercoursis(?)
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2018-05-27T18:44:46Z comborico1611: jeosol: I'm just a newb, but well wishes for you AI pursuits.
2018-05-27T18:45:23Z jeosol: what do you mean?
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2018-05-27T20:49:55Z jeosol: CLOS question here: I am writing defmethods that prints object based on a query from a db table, e.g., (defmethod print-actor ((obj actor)) ...) (defmethod print-actor ((objs list)) ..) Somethings, a query returns nil, and I get an error, is there is way to cater for the latter case
2018-05-27T20:50:20Z jeosol: somethings ->sometimes
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2018-05-27T20:51:43Z sjl: (defmethod print-actor ((object (eql 'nil))) ...) maybe?
2018-05-27T20:52:02Z sjl: don't even need the '
2018-05-27T20:52:41Z jeosol: sjl: nice, it work
2018-05-27T20:52:51Z jeosol: merci
2018-05-27T20:53:30Z jeosol: I just return nil for that case.
2018-05-27T20:55:01Z _death: "null" is also a class name
2018-05-27T20:55:04Z pjb: jeosol: (if result (do-something result) (do-something-else))
2018-05-27T20:55:45Z jeosol: pjb: I was asking in the context of different defmethods ...
2018-05-27T20:56:25Z sjl: _death: huh, TIL.  I thought it was just a type, not a full class.  neat.
2018-05-27T20:56:30Z pjb: I assumeL (defmethod print-actor ((obj list)) (let ((result (query-list obj))) (if result (do-something result) (do-something-else))))
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2018-05-27T20:57:15Z pjb: But if you want to call print-actor with NIL and not call query-list in that case, then (if obj (query-non-empty-list obj) (query-nil))
2018-05-27T20:57:46Z pjb: I mean, why would NIL be not something to be queried from the database too?
2018-05-27T20:57:47Z jeosol: _death: defining a method on null also worked
2018-05-27T20:57:56Z jeosol: _death: domo arigato
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2018-05-27T20:58:37Z jeosol: pjb: sorryI didn't method it, for the correct case, the query return as list of objects (I am using some ORM)
2018-05-27T20:58:51Z pjb: Notice that if you specialize a generic function on NULL, then specialize it also on CONS, otherwise call-next-method may call the method on LIST!
2018-05-27T20:58:59Z pjb: Call Precedent List: null, symbol, list, sequence, t
2018-05-27T20:59:26Z jeosol: so I am calling the print-actor defmethod on the out from the query
2018-05-27T20:59:47Z jeosol: pjb: thanks for that info
2018-05-27T21:00:45Z pjb: ok.
2018-05-27T21:01:04Z jeosol: *out -> results
2018-05-27T21:01:25Z pjb: In those cases I like to use defgeneric to keep all the methods together: (defgeneric print-actor (obj) (:method ((obj null)) 'foo) (:method ((obj cons)) 'bar))
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2018-05-27T21:07:37Z jeosol: pjb: thanks.
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2018-05-27T21:08:17Z jeosol: I guess that is one approach to organizing the defmethods, I wrote them separately initially.
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2018-05-27T21:20:55Z comborico: What is efun? https://hastebin.com/xukitekodo.http
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2018-05-27T21:24:02Z comborico: lol. Oops.  Nevermind.
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2018-05-27T22:43:42Z aeth: Any chance to get custom values for optimize? This is permited by the standard. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
2018-05-27T22:44:50Z aeth: I would love to be able to force TCO and fast trig functions via (declare (optimize ...)). There are probably a few more legit optimizations that probably should be done that way.
2018-05-27T22:45:38Z on_ion: hmm
2018-05-27T22:45:46Z aeth: We were talking about this in the context of things that would be nice in a new revision of the spec a couple of days ago but I just realized that (declare (optimize (whatever ...))) doesn't have the issues of (declare (whatever ...)), i.e. the latter could conflict with user-defined types so adding them isn't a good idea
2018-05-27T22:47:18Z aeth: On the subject of fast trig: Lots of people probably hate my code because I do (speed 3) anywhere where there is trig because I want fast trig rather than coerce-to-double-first trig that (iirc) SBCL does below speed 3. And forcing TCO is kinda obvious. For one, I could get rid of most of the cl-scheme runtime right there.
2018-05-27T22:48:01Z on_ion: but (safe 3) == safety
2018-05-27T22:48:37Z on_ion: i dont see how forcing speed for code that requires speed could inspire hate from another programmer
2018-05-27T22:48:56Z on_ion: i dont see a way to retrieve the currently enforced value of declare =)
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2018-05-27T22:49:07Z aeth: Well, the problem is that there are certain desirable optimizations, particularly around numbers where you want to keep things running the same everywhere if possible.
2018-05-27T22:49:26Z aeth: And, also, of course, the whole TCO thing.
2018-05-27T22:49:32Z aeth: There are probably a few more than I'm not aware of.
2018-05-27T22:50:22Z aeth: You could go the opposite extreme or something and want the compiler to turn (* 0f0 some-float) into 0f0 even though that's not totally accurate.
2018-05-27T22:50:35Z on_ion: hmm. implementations are free to define their own. perhaps you could add or modify things, to allow something like (declare (speed aeth_numbers)) ^_
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2018-05-27T22:54:50Z aeth: on_ion: Implementations are absolutely free to define their own, but without SBCL and CCL at a minimum buying into the idea, nothing will happen
2018-05-27T22:55:02Z on_ion: no i mean make your own.
2018-05-27T22:55:17Z on_ion: "implementations are free to... " --> so are users also free to ...
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2018-05-27T23:06:16Z aeth: How would you define your own without modifying the implementation?
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2018-05-27T23:08:30Z aeth: Also, it looks like it's mandated to have 0-3 there. So even for things that could just be a t/nil flag, you'd have to do something with various number levels
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2018-05-27T23:18:41Z on_ion: aeth: i thought CL implementations are fully-modifyable ?
2018-05-27T23:19:01Z on_ion: the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language
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2018-05-28T00:35:35Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:35Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:35Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:35Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:35Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:36Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:36Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:37Z wwtrmc: IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL MEMORIAL DAY PARTY PLEASE NO NIGGERS
2018-05-28T00:35:39Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:39Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:39Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:39Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:39Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:40Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:40Z wwtrmc: NO NOIGGAS NO CHNIGGERS BNIGGGASBERE   DMONKEYS
2018-05-28T00:35:52Z wwtrmc: YOUCAN'TEVENDDOS LOLLOLLOLLOL FUCK ON THIS
2018-05-28T00:35:52Z wwtrmc: YOUCAN'TEVENDDOS LOLLOLLOLLOL FUCK ON THIS
2018-05-28T00:35:53Z wwtrmc: YOUCAN'TEVENDDOS LOLLOLLOLLOL FUCK ON THIS
2018-05-28T00:35:53Z wwtrmc: YOUCAN'TEVENDDOS LOLLOLLOLLOL FUCK ON THIS
2018-05-28T00:35:54Z wwtrmc: YOUCAN'TEVENDDOS LOLLOLLOLLOL FUCK ON THIS
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2018-05-28T00:43:43Z jeosol: I hope I am not the only one seeing the crap posted by wwtrmc
2018-05-28T00:45:55Z SlashLife: jeosol: Vice versa I'd hope I was the only one, because at least I know that I can ignore stuff like that. :)
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2018-05-28T01:04:41Z aeth: pillton: I have an idea for an option for defspecialization. :default-type foo. Saves repetition if everything or almost everything is of the same type. So it will interpret "defspecialization (foo :default-type vec3) (x y z (u single-float))" as "defspecialization foo ((x vec3) (y vec3) (z vec3) (u single-float))"
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2018-05-28T01:05:41Z aeth: I just added that to my typed variant of defun so I wouldn't make my code more verbose by switching functions to the typed variant of defun.
2018-05-28T01:07:53Z aeth: (I can also refactor a simple define-function into a defspecialization just by switching the name of the macro and adding a defspecialization return type, at least for trivial cases. I currently do not handle typed keywords/rest/optional and the actual options passed in are mostly different.)
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2018-05-28T01:10:30Z aeth: (Actually, I could probably add an option to my define-function that could switch what's being defined to a defspecialization or a defgeneric, giving it a unified syntax and making refactoring between the three even simpler.)
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2018-05-28T01:23:41Z on_ion: OH IRC GRAPHICS !! one hour later, no mods ? =P
2018-05-28T01:24:55Z aeth: IRC is like email. Once written, it cannot be undone
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2018-05-28T01:27:35Z on_ion: maybe i should have reversed the caps. because its still on screen, and the perp is still in the channel ?
2018-05-28T01:28:07Z on_ion: "xyz is like life", one done, cannot be undone
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2018-05-28T01:55:20Z Lord_Nightmare: on_ion: we need a bot with ops which autobans anyone who uses the term "#SUPERBOWL" or "#L0D3", iirc its all russian botnet related, possibly an extenstion of the old russian botnet seen back in the obama election days
2018-05-28T01:55:36Z Lord_Nightmare: er, i THINK its russian botnet related at least
2018-05-28T01:56:01Z jeosol: hmm, is that so?
2018-05-28T01:57:15Z jeosol: hopefully this site doesn't get messed up like comp.lang.lisp. I used to frequent there a lot and gotten a lot of help early on, till I started seeing hateful, racist stuff, and had to pack it ...
2018-05-28T01:58:13Z on_ion: Lord_Nightmare: also the Nword
2018-05-28T01:58:24Z Lord_Nightmare: I'm pretty sure the irc text spam (which is all over freenode) is russian botnet related and used the n-word to incite people
2018-05-28T01:58:39Z on_ion: jeosol: racist stuff in a lisp place ? was it spam as well?
2018-05-28T01:58:56Z jeosol: I meant at comp.lang.lisp, not here
2018-05-28T01:59:22Z on_ion: jeosol: yes i know. i said "lisp place". answer Q?
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2018-05-28T01:59:30Z jeosol: yes
2018-05-28T01:59:32Z jeosol: lisp place
2018-05-28T02:00:17Z on_ion: why do you render my question invalid or unapplicable , i was just asking if that hateful racist stuff you mentioned, was spam, or actual lisp stuff in a lisp place. dont worry if cant process
2018-05-28T02:00:46Z jeosol: lol. sorry about that. it is probably a mixture of both
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2018-05-28T02:01:43Z jeosol: in comp.lang.lisp, sometimes, a bunch of arabic stuff, drugs for sale, and some posters have footers that have controversal statements. That said, some lispers there have called them out for it
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2018-05-28T02:02:39Z on_ion: ahh, i see. i havent seen much newsgroups for quite a while =)
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2018-05-28T02:21:48Z jeosol: I have a google alert, so I was getting daily updates, but the negativity somethings is just distracting
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2018-05-28T03:01:48Z akkad: Long history of them using that subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
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2018-05-28T03:04:24Z on_ion: down with negativity
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2018-05-28T03:55:25Z loke: Is it just me, or is this code snippet from Maxima particularly ugly?
2018-05-28T03:55:27Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/0fd25a6069f9242e5341ec5c91ed4ce6
2018-05-28T03:55:34Z loke: Look at the PROG2 invocation.
2018-05-28T03:56:26Z loke: Basically they use PROG2 to invoke a side-effect used for the next COND clause
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2018-05-28T03:59:45Z pillton: It made perfect sense at the time.
2018-05-28T03:59:56Z pillton: ...probably
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2018-05-28T04:01:00Z loke: pillton: Well, it's not _illegal_. It's just very... 1970's :-)
2018-05-28T04:01:12Z pillton: The indentation is pretty weird, so it is hard to evaluate the entire block.
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2018-05-28T04:01:57Z pillton: Who invented the tab character?
2018-05-28T04:02:25Z on_ion: george washington
2018-05-28T04:03:11Z loke: pillton: I reindented it, try reloading
2018-05-28T04:03:59Z aeth: loke: If it was written in any way like how I write CL it probably went like this: "This is ugly but I'll write it in a fairly straightforward way so I can refactor it, perhaps with a nice macro, later." Except the next day, it turns out it wasn't very straightforward at all and it was probably written at the very end of the day or something. And "the next day" might be two years later because big applications are big.
2018-05-28T04:04:00Z pillton: loke: Thank you.
2018-05-28T04:04:01Z loke: Not much different hough
2018-05-28T04:04:02Z on_ion: reinventation
2018-05-28T04:04:40Z pillton: loke: The use of setq in the test forms is pretty harsh.
2018-05-28T04:04:53Z loke: aeth: Possibly. But also remember that the Maxima was started in the 60's, and this is part of the function definition code which is likely that old.
2018-05-28T04:05:07Z loke: pillton: Indeed
2018-05-28T04:05:09Z aeth: pillton: Efficiency! We're competing with Fortran here!
2018-05-28T04:05:29Z aeth: (Of course, today's compilers probably would be more efficient if you wrote it in a more straightforward way.)
2018-05-28T04:06:42Z aeth: loke: Assuming defmacro dates to the 1960s, the thought process was probably very similar. If anything, they probably relied more on macros in old Lisp than today's Lisp.
2018-05-28T04:07:11Z loke: For even more interesting stuff, look at this... In particular the top comment:
2018-05-28T04:07:12Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/bbf8a904748033c144e30ccffee2fb23
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2018-05-28T04:08:03Z aeth: (defmvar $use_fast_arrays nil)
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2018-05-28T04:08:09Z aeth: Perl?
2018-05-28T04:08:27Z loke: aeth: Oh you haven't seen the half of it:
2018-05-28T04:08:36Z pillton: loke: Damn. A paper must have been due.
2018-05-28T04:08:44Z aeth: Looks like it's a "function visible from Macsyma". https://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2018-05-28T04:08:49Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/531ac436c509b345aeb60fd7ee96c4f1
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2018-05-28T04:09:09Z aeth: loke: Are you cleaning up Macsyma's code?
2018-05-28T04:09:09Z loke: aeth: Yes. Variables that start with $ as maxima variables.
2018-05-28T04:09:20Z loke: They're not using packages (didn't exist in Maclisp I think)
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2018-05-28T04:14:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-28T04:15:06Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2018-05-28T05:27:14Z jeosol: morning beach
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2018-05-28T06:49:46Z hajovonta: hi
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2018-05-28T06:57:25Z on_ion: hi
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2018-05-28T09:35:36Z scymtym: slyrus: i pushed an initial version of cxml with a few improvements to https://github.com/sharplispers/cxml
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2018-05-28T10:56:33Z phenoble: Hi everyone,
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2018-05-28T10:57:07Z beach: Hello phenoble.
2018-05-28T10:57:16Z akkad: re
2018-05-28T10:57:46Z phenoble: I am working through Seibel's `Practical Common Lisp`, and just encountered behaviour using SBCL different from the book. I wonder why this is.
2018-05-28T10:57:57Z beach: Let's hear it.
2018-05-28T10:58:31Z phenoble: So, Seibel explains that appending lists using append does not append copies of the passed lists, but essentially re-uses their memory.
2018-05-28T10:58:43Z beach: Only the last one.
2018-05-28T10:58:46Z phenoble: Such that, if any of those lists is changed afterwards using e.g. setf, the appended ...
2018-05-28T10:58:48Z beach: The other ones are copied.
2018-05-28T10:58:54Z phenoble: - only the last one...
2018-05-28T10:59:25Z beach: clhs append
2018-05-28T10:59:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2018-05-28T10:59:27Z phenoble: ok, then the behaviour as observed in sbcl is still not as described in the book.
2018-05-28T10:59:39Z beach: OK, show us some code.
2018-05-28T10:59:40Z phenoble: Here's what he's doing:
2018-05-28T10:59:49Z beach: If it is long, use a paste service.
2018-05-28T11:00:22Z phenoble: (progn (defparameter x (list 1 2)) (defparameter y (list 3 4)) (defparameter z (append x y)) (setf (first y) 20) z)
2018-05-28T11:00:33Z phenoble: (essentially)
2018-05-28T11:00:54Z phenoble: He claims that z would now be (1 2 20 4)
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2018-05-28T11:01:03Z phenoble: Though, when I do that in sbcl, I get (1 2 3 4
2018-05-28T11:01:05Z phenoble: )
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2018-05-28T11:02:01Z TMA: phenoble: When I do it, I get (1 2 20 4)
2018-05-28T11:02:01Z beach: Let me check...
2018-05-28T11:02:46Z phenoble: hey, when I enter that exact code, I do now, too
2018-05-28T11:02:57Z phenoble: ...why didn't I before, when entering these statements one after the other?!
2018-05-28T11:03:33Z beach: phenoble: Well, obviously, if you re-evaluate the first defparameters, then you get new values of x and y.
2018-05-28T11:04:04Z beach: phenoble: You would have to tell us exactly what you did and in what order.
2018-05-28T11:05:04Z phenoble: beach: yes, I am trying to recreate what I did before... entering these commands one after the other, does infact also lead to (1 2 20 4).
2018-05-28T11:05:16Z phenoble: Is defparameter, in these regards, somehow different from defvar?
2018-05-28T11:05:30Z beach: Yes.
2018-05-28T11:05:47Z beach: DEFPARAMETER always gives a new value to the variable.
2018-05-28T11:05:56Z beach: DEFVAR only if it doesn't already have a value.
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2018-05-28T11:06:25Z beach: clhs defvar
2018-05-28T11:06:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2018-05-28T11:06:47Z phenoble: That effect must've been responsible for my observation then.
2018-05-28T11:06:59Z phenoble: beach: thank you for clearing that up, sorry for the confusion!
2018-05-28T11:07:06Z beach: No problem.
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2018-05-28T11:16:23Z phenoble: Related question:  is the rationale for having append behave in this way performance considerations that come to play in scenarios where the last element contains another cons cell (that links to another cons cell, ..and so on)?
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2018-05-28T11:17:05Z phenoble: Because why else would one construct append to behave in this (otherwise odd?) way, I suppose?
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2018-05-28T11:17:29Z phenoble: Asking because I am still a little uncertain regarding these list structures lisps use internally..
2018-05-28T11:18:06Z TMA: phenoble: APPEND is very old. by sharing as much as possible, you conserve memory (which was neither plentiful nor cheap those days)
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2018-05-28T11:20:05Z TMA: phenoble: absent mutation, there is no natural way to tell, whether the last list is shared or not.
2018-05-28T11:20:11Z phenoble: Yes, but apparently things are shared only then, when dealing with "cons cells lists" I suppose (the way I use that term might reveal my lack of knowledge, sorry). Because in a scenario of e.g. (append (list ..) (list ..) (list ..)), only the last element is shared - which does not seem efficient.
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2018-05-28T11:20:33Z phenoble: TMA: noted, thanks
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2018-05-28T11:21:44Z TMA: phenoble: [[well, I am lying a bit. you can compare the conses for EQ, but from the point of what the list _contains_ there is no difference]]
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2018-05-28T11:22:57Z TMA: phenoble: in general, you cannot share the non-last lists, because that would entail modyfying them
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2018-05-28T11:24:37Z TMA: phenoble: NCONC does the modification. given your definitions of X Y, try (progn (defparameter q (nconc x y)) (values x y q))
2018-05-28T11:25:43Z phenoble: TMA:  yes, I am starting to understand the details I think. This is essentially about how to deal with linked lists in different ways.
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2018-05-28T11:29:20Z TMA: phenoble: drawing boxes helped me; this kind of boxes: http://d2vlcm61l7u1fs.cloudfront.net/media%2Ffda%2Ffda36e53-c6d1-47c8-88b7-9a418d0f7e84%2FphpFNhftT.png
2018-05-28T11:30:02Z TMA: the / is a shortcut notation for an arrow pointing to NIL
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2018-05-28T11:31:55Z TMA: phenoble: http://gajon.org/trees-linked-lists-common-lisp/
2018-05-28T11:33:47Z phenoble: This is excellent.
2018-05-28T11:34:10Z phenoble: thanks
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2018-05-28T11:38:17Z phenoble: hmm, when I pass a "list" as an argument to a function, I'd assume that only the first cons-cell is copied. Is that correct?
2018-05-28T11:39:02Z phenoble: ...but, if that was true, why can I not change a list inside functions, I wonder.
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2018-05-28T11:39:42Z phenoble: Though I would be surprised if that was not true, because from that it'd follow that the whole list is copied, would it not?
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2018-05-28T11:41:11Z phenoble: mhn, I miss C++'s verbosity concerning these matters (pointers,references,lvalues,rvalues) - its explicit use of these concepts does make it explicit what is happening
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2018-05-28T11:46:55Z TMA: phenoble: only the pointer to the first cell is passed to the function
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2018-05-28T11:49:34Z phenoble: TMA: yes, and hence you can actually change a list in a function.
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2018-05-28T11:50:50Z TMA: phenoble: there is no pass-by-value -- everything is passed by reference (well, the implementation is free to do as it pleases, as always)
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2018-05-28T11:54:48Z phenoble: TMA: I am starting to see why lisp is referred to as much as it in the context of functional programming. It's a good fit for it w.r.t. performance.
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2018-05-28T12:49:16Z beach: phenoble: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics" which means that every object is manipulated through a reference to it.  The calling convention uses call-by-value uniformly, in that arguments are evaluated before they are passed to a function, but the value obtained is a reference.
2018-05-28T12:50:02Z beach: phenoble: Nothing in Common Lisp is ever implicitly copied.
2018-05-28T12:50:57Z beach: This convention turns out to be the only sane one in a language with automatic memory management.  It is much faster than what is possible in a language such as C++, which is why I frequently say that "it is possible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular".
2018-05-28T12:51:11Z beach: Er,
2018-05-28T12:51:18Z beach: "it is NOT possible"
2018-05-28T12:51:58Z jackdaniel halts typing in the terminal `c++-ide' halfway through
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2018-05-28T12:54:09Z beach: To quote Paul Wilson: "liveness is a global property".  So, in a C++ program, to make sure that you know the number of references to an object, you must either 1. break modularity so that you know it that way 2. introduce reference counters which makes things orders of magnitude slower, or 3. always copy objects so that you know that each one has a single reference, which is also disastrous for performance.
2018-05-28T12:55:04Z beach: jackdaniel: Er, what?
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2018-05-28T12:56:52Z jackdaniel: beach: that was a joke. A: XXX *is* good. B: <hurrs with preparations to use XXX>. A: is NOT*. B: <halts the preparations>.
2018-05-28T12:57:16Z beach: Ah, got it.
2018-05-28T12:57:23Z beach: I guess I must be tired.  Sorry about that.
2018-05-28T12:57:30Z jackdaniel: no worrie
2018-05-28T12:57:33Z jackdaniel: worries*
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2018-05-28T13:00:37Z LdBeth lol
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2018-05-28T13:04:45Z LdBeth: Want some help with cl-pdf
2018-05-28T13:05:46Z LdBeth: How does it determine the font name? Seems it’s neither by postscript name nor file name of TTF/OTF font.
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2018-05-28T13:07:32Z shka: well, numbers probabbly are copied, but since they are inmutable anyway it makes zero difference
2018-05-28T13:08:17Z Bike: nothing is explicitly copied with respect to eql, which is all you care about most of the time
2018-05-28T13:08:31Z shka: yeah
2018-05-28T13:08:59Z jackdaniel: implicitly?
2018-05-28T13:09:06Z Bike: yes
2018-05-28T13:09:38Z shka: anyway, manual memory managment is difficult, boring and basicly: https://dannydainton.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/angtft.jpg?w=636
2018-05-28T13:10:33Z shka: unless you really must to do that
2018-05-28T13:10:49Z shka: because you are implementing garbage collector
2018-05-28T13:10:59Z shka: or something
2018-05-28T13:11:31Z jackdaniel: how is this related to the implicit copying in some languages?
2018-05-28T13:12:07Z Bike: well, C++ copies a lot because it puts things on the stack, so like if you return a complicated object from a function, it has to be copied
2018-05-28T13:12:21Z shka: usually copied
2018-05-28T13:12:22Z Bike: and it puts things on the stack because there's no way for it to put them on the heap itself
2018-05-28T13:12:28Z shka: it is even more complicated
2018-05-28T13:13:23Z shka: i think that implicit copying in CL is essentially invisible
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2018-05-28T13:13:32Z Bike: pretty much.
2018-05-28T13:14:17Z shka: as long as you don't use eq, only compiler programmers need to worry about it
2018-05-28T13:14:37Z Bike: eq is in kind of a weird semantic place because it can distinguish objects that nothing else in the language does, in implementation dependent ways
2018-05-28T13:14:41Z LdBeth: shka: probably you can print objects out to look up address
2018-05-28T13:14:53Z beach: shka: "Nothing is ever implicitly copied" is what is known as a "pedagogical lie".  And "Uniform reference semantics" has an emphasis on "semantics", i.e. it is AS IF every object is manipulated through a reference, simply because there is no portable way a programmer can determine whether it is true or not.
2018-05-28T13:15:16Z beach: ... other than EQ, I guess.
2018-05-28T13:15:40Z shka: i consider this to be not-a-problem in CL, really
2018-05-28T13:15:57Z beach: Yet, you brought it up.
2018-05-28T13:16:11Z shka: i regret this action
2018-05-28T13:16:16Z beach: Fair enough.
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2018-05-28T13:18:11Z shka: anyway, I was looking for small forth interpreter of FORTH written in easy to understand CL code
2018-05-28T13:18:35Z shka: something to recomend?
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2018-05-28T13:20:00Z LdBeth: Doesn’t Let Over Lambda have one
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2018-05-28T13:26:53Z shka: LdBeth: i will check
2018-05-28T13:27:01Z splittist: LdBeth: kinda sorta.
2018-05-28T13:28:21Z LdBeth: Just out of curiosity, but why FORTH
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2018-05-28T14:13:57Z phenoble: beach: Just reading your comments on our earlier discussion - thanks. I'll definitely keep your reference to memory management in mind in further study.
2018-05-28T14:15:17Z phenoble: beach:  About C++ performance and modularity, though, I'm not sure I see the connection. I see C++ to be so flexible that you can essentially do everything you want - but at the price of complexity in using that... let's say, well-performing and modular thing, you've created.
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2018-05-28T14:16:50Z beach: phoe: The problem with any language without automatic memory management is that you can't know what module is keeping references to your objects when you pass an object to such a module.
2018-05-28T14:16:59Z beach: Er, phenoble, I mean.
2018-05-28T14:17:04Z phenoble: beach:   using smart-pointers that introduce some book-keeping logic via reference-counting mechanisms is not per-se slow
2018-05-28T14:17:13Z beach: Oh, yes it is.
2018-05-28T14:17:34Z beach: phenoble: Consider something like (setf x y) or x = y in some other language.
2018-05-28T14:17:45Z beach: In Common Lisp, it is a half-cycle register operation.
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2018-05-28T14:17:55Z beach: With reference counters, you have to do the following:
2018-05-28T14:18:11Z beach: 1. Decrement the reference counter of the object referred to by x.
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2018-05-28T14:18:24Z beach: That involves a memory reference, some 10 times slower than a register operation.
2018-05-28T14:18:27Z phenoble: beach:  ah, you're discussing this still in the context of automatic memory management
2018-05-28T14:18:38Z phenoble: beach:  ok, sorry, that was not clear to me
2018-05-28T14:18:39Z beach: Then you have to test whether the reference counter is 0.
2018-05-28T14:18:49Z beach: That is a test that may defeat branch prediction.
2018-05-28T14:19:01Z beach: Then you have to increment the reference counter of the object pointed to by y.
2018-05-28T14:19:08Z beach: Now you have a second memory reference.
2018-05-28T14:19:14Z beach: Finally, you do the assignment.
2018-05-28T14:19:42Z beach: phenoble: My point is that those operations are intrinsically slow.
2018-05-28T14:20:00Z beach: phenoble: But you have no choice if you don't have automatic memory management.
2018-05-28T14:20:20Z beach: Or rather, you do have a choice, which is to break all modularity so that you know whether a module keeps a reference to your object.
2018-05-28T14:20:27Z phenoble: beach: Well, you could devise your own scheme of making sure that memory gets deallocated at the appropriate times I suppose.
2018-05-28T14:20:36Z beach: No you can't.
2018-05-28T14:20:37Z phenoble: beach:  manually
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2018-05-28T14:20:41Z beach: Not while preserving modularity.
2018-05-28T14:20:53Z beach: Hence: "it is not possible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast".
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2018-05-28T14:22:09Z phenoble: beach:  ok, I'm not all that deep into language design under these aspects (modularity?). I can neither speak nor think with authority on this. You win :-).
2018-05-28T14:22:13Z beach: phenoble: But apparently C++ programmers are being lied to.  They think they now have garbage collection in their language, and they think the compiler can generate fast code.  Since they don't compare with anything else, they believe it.
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2018-05-28T14:28:05Z TMA: beach: to be fair, there is a sentence in the standard, that says basically 'if you do this, you will probably break garbage collector (if you happen to use a implementation that provides it)'
2018-05-28T14:28:28Z Bike: where's that?
2018-05-28T14:28:42Z beach: TMA: What standard?
2018-05-28T14:28:50Z TMA: C++17 iirc
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2018-05-28T14:29:31Z beach: TMA: Yes, I hear that they are preparing C++ for automatic memory management.
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2018-05-28T14:29:57Z Bike: oh, in C++ you meant
2018-05-28T14:30:15Z TMA: (it is worded in a manner to be able to use "portably" BDW GC)
2018-05-28T14:30:33Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-05-28T14:32:13Z oleo: minion: help
2018-05-28T14:32:15Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2018-05-28T14:36:52Z beach: phenoble: So let me just say one more thing.  When I program an application in C or C++ (which I haven't done for some time), I use pointers for everything, so that I get uniform reference semantics, and I stick in the Boehm etc. garbage collector so that I don't have to worry about freeing objects that are dead.
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2018-05-28T15:42:12Z phenoble: beach:   ok, I was not aware that the question on which data primitive to use for keeping reference to dynamically allocated memory is something to consider in the context of performance. In my day-to-day dealing with a large C++ codebase many other considerations took precedence (so far).
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2018-05-28T15:49:45Z beach: phenoble: Yet, people often cite performance as the main reason to use C++.  But then apparently, they don't care so much about it after all.
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2018-05-28T15:50:27Z on_ion: beach: also, large codebases that are already in C++.
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2018-05-28T15:51:16Z beach: on_ion: Yes, it's very sad.
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2018-05-28T15:52:12Z phenoble: beach:  The performance bottlenecks have, so far, been elsewhere. Besides - performance is rarely a topic. There's many other considerations to take into account when deciding on which programming language to use.
2018-05-28T15:52:36Z phenoble: beach:  I'm not sure that attributing a "do-not-care-attitude" to anyone, is part of it.
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2018-05-28T15:52:43Z beach: I know.  I just gave a talk to industry entitled "Choosing a programming language".
2018-05-28T15:52:56Z beach: So I know for a fact that many wrong decisions are made.
2018-05-28T15:53:00Z on_ion: beach: interesting, is it live ?
2018-05-28T15:53:03Z on_ion: online*
2018-05-28T15:53:04Z phenoble: beach: But I'm sure all those questions are highly dependent on context.
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2018-05-28T15:53:26Z beach: The slides are available: http://metamodular.com/capl.pdf
2018-05-28T15:53:32Z on_ion: giving a talk to industry does not make one an expert =) else trolling irc i would have big points
2018-05-28T15:53:34Z jeosol: any links beach
2018-05-28T15:53:39Z on_ion: beach: ty
2018-05-28T15:53:43Z jeosol: ok, cool, you did that already.
2018-05-28T15:54:10Z beach: phenoble: Yes, but in general, decisions are made by incompetent decision makers, as the talk explains.
2018-05-28T15:54:33Z jeosol: a couple of my buddies, who program in other langs, keep questioning my choice of CL for a project I started
2018-05-28T15:54:42Z phenoble: beach:  sounds plausible, but if it's true I cannot say :-)
2018-05-28T15:54:51Z on_ion: jeosol how come
2018-05-28T15:54:58Z beach: on_ion: No, but (as my "bio" says), I have a life-long experience from academia and industry in 5 countries on 4 continents.
2018-05-28T15:55:20Z beach: on_ion: Does that count a bit?
2018-05-28T15:56:00Z jeosol: on_ion: good question, first they see my screen (emacs) and kept wanting to know what strange language I was using
2018-05-28T15:56:51Z on_ion: (ps.ocaml and erlang are also good examples for dominating implementations)
2018-05-28T15:56:54Z jeosol: beach: "programmer productivity is highly influenced by the language" very true.
2018-05-28T15:57:38Z beach: jeosol: Yes, and I often cite the article by Hudak and Jones for that.
2018-05-28T15:57:51Z beach: In fact, that's another talk I often give to industry.
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2018-05-28T15:58:55Z on_ion: beach: yea =)
2018-05-28T15:58:57Z beach: jeosol: Yes, there is a very significant psychological barrier to admit that someone else made a good choice when choosing a programming language.
2018-05-28T15:59:24Z on_ion: jeosol: perhaps they do not know much of 'other' languages. xml \
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2018-05-28T16:00:02Z beach: jeosol: This essay explains the main such barrier: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html
2018-05-28T16:00:50Z beach: on_ion: That is part of it, but, as my essay explains, there is a great psychological barrier to even learning more languages than they already know.
2018-05-28T16:01:55Z jeosol: on_ion & beach:  thanks for the reference and info
2018-05-28T16:02:06Z beach: jeosol: Anytime.  Hope it helps.
2018-05-28T16:02:07Z jeosol: this is something I will have to deal with more and more
2018-05-28T16:02:28Z jeosol: having to convince potential partners, about my strange choice of languages
2018-05-28T16:02:29Z easye: beach: Hmm <http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html> is returning "An error has occurred." page for me.
2018-05-28T16:02:49Z beach: Works for me.
2018-05-28T16:03:05Z beach: Oh, not anymore.
2018-05-28T16:03:23Z jeosol: I feel working with CL, when you start out, you are productive, but that productivity, if you will, delta(productivity)/delta(time) actually increases, because of prior knowledge, prior building blocks etc
2018-05-28T16:03:39Z jeosol: you keep getting more done in less time.
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2018-05-28T16:04:23Z phenoble: jeosol:  Is this different with other languages, for you?
2018-05-28T16:04:31Z jeosol: need to save those resources
2018-05-28T16:04:32Z beach: easye: I have no explanation for it, other than my service provider messing up.
2018-05-28T16:05:06Z easye: beach:  Fair enough.  Just keeping ya informed.  Glad you can at least reproduce.
2018-05-28T16:05:10Z beach: jeosol: You are going to have a hard time convincing them.
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2018-05-28T16:05:19Z jeosol: phenoble: good question: my language history: fortran77, f90, then grad school (matlab, C/C++), upon graduating pick up CL,
2018-05-28T16:05:23Z beach: jeosol: Worse, you are putting yourself in a very bad position.
2018-05-28T16:05:39Z beach: jeosol: Let's say you manage to convince them to use (say) Common Lisp.
2018-05-28T16:05:42Z jeosol: when working some Perl, but eventually converted C/C++ code to Cl
2018-05-28T16:05:48Z beach: jeosol: Now suppose ANYTHING goes wrong.
2018-05-28T16:06:01Z beach: jeosol: They are going to blame both you and Common Lisp.
2018-05-28T16:06:08Z jeosol: beach: I am not sure convincing is the right word or good approach
2018-05-28T16:06:21Z phenoble: jeosol:  interesting. I find that I get better at anything I seriously work with for a while - no matter the language :).
2018-05-28T16:06:24Z beach: jeosol: Exactly.  I recommend not doing it.
2018-05-28T16:06:34Z jeosol: I agree, it is probably sth that you have to experience. The code base is large now
2018-05-28T16:07:26Z phenoble: beach:  I'm not sure I understood the context the causality you predict.
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2018-05-28T16:07:36Z jeosol: phenoble: my programs are usually written in layers (mostly CLOS), what I meant by increasing productivity is that, adding new functionality or feature is much easier as I pickup previous layers or module
2018-05-28T16:07:51Z beginner_supreme: I'm a bit of a beginner at CL (lot of ways of doing things -> hard to determine best way) but I feel it's probably the best language to use for the majority of applications one can think of
2018-05-28T16:07:57Z beach: phenoble: I said a lot of things. :) what are you referring to?
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2018-05-28T16:08:12Z on_ion: beach: i think there may be a contrasting anti-barrier as well, for those knowing too many languages
2018-05-28T16:08:37Z _death: beginner_supreme: that just means you need to think of more applications..
2018-05-28T16:08:48Z jeosol: beach: so what is the way, not convince at all? In the case of investors what to do
2018-05-28T16:09:14Z jeosol: if you had to lead a project and had a free choice, you probably will have to explain, if not defend your choice right?
2018-05-28T16:09:27Z phenoble: beach:  I just meant to say that I do not know in which context the causal relationships you describe ("They are going to blame you") .. happens.
2018-05-28T16:09:35Z jeosol: I mean lead an entirely new project.
2018-05-28T16:09:40Z beach: jeosol: The only way I have found to work is to show that you can do work better and faster than others.  Then, eventually, initiative will come from others and whey will want to know what you are doing.
2018-05-28T16:09:50Z xristos: beginner_supreme: it's not the best language if you treat engineers like cogs in a machine (commoditization)
2018-05-28T16:10:02Z jeosol: ok, that's fair. I agree
2018-05-28T16:10:04Z on_ion: beach: 404 on psych.html
2018-05-28T16:10:08Z on_ion: *\
2018-05-28T16:10:09Z xristos: which is what i've observed in industry at large
2018-05-28T16:10:21Z beginner_supreme: xristos: completely agree
2018-05-28T16:10:35Z beach: on_ion: apparently, yes.  I don't know what the problem is.   It worked for me a few minutes ago.  And I haven't changed anything since.
2018-05-28T16:10:38Z jeosol: beach: confirm error too
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2018-05-28T16:10:51Z on_ion: okay. its alright =)
2018-05-28T16:12:01Z phenoble: xristos:  interesting. What inherent quality of lisp makes you think that engineers using it are harder to treat like cogs in a machine, than, say, engineers using C++?
2018-05-28T16:12:14Z beach: jeosol: My talk emphasizes establishing a risk analysis to make the choices.  In particular, if you include programmer productivity in that analysis, you can compare the gain to the cost of training staff, etc.  But it is entirely possible that the decision makers do not accept that there is a productivity difference between different languages.
2018-05-28T16:12:17Z xristos: phenoble: well there's drastically less of them, to begin with
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2018-05-28T16:13:00Z jeosol: beach: good point. I was actually at the point of starting to teach CL or at least introduce them gradually
2018-05-28T16:13:18Z beach: jeosol: That can be a good strategy.
2018-05-28T16:13:19Z phenoble: xristos:  I'm not sure I understand this argument.
2018-05-28T16:13:19Z jeosol: but to train, they have to be willing to pick it up right.
2018-05-28T16:13:37Z beginner_supreme: There is an observation called "zipf's law" where the 2nd most common thing is about half as common as the first, the 3rd 1/3, etc... So you get an 20% of items cover 80% of the area.
2018-05-28T16:13:42Z beginner_supreme: This applies to languages as well.
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2018-05-28T16:13:56Z jeosol: parentheses complaints was not a big issue for me when I started, because I was coding C/C++ in emacs then.
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2018-05-28T16:14:00Z beach: phenoble: If you want to be able to hire and fire programmers at will, you need to use a programming language that every programmer knows.
2018-05-28T16:14:23Z beach: phenoble: If you use Common Lisp, you have to invest in training and keeping your programmers.
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2018-05-28T16:14:55Z jeosol: very true beach. essentially, your programmers are key to the project
2018-05-28T16:14:57Z xristos: phenoble: trying to find ron garret's post about the attitudes he encountered at Google
2018-05-28T16:14:59Z beach: phenoble: But since decision makers don't know that there might be a productivity difference between different languages, they can't justify the additional investment.
2018-05-28T16:15:08Z _death: the simple fact is that a huge amount of effort went into writing and supporting performant libraries in C and C++.. and Lisp is not on the radar for many performance-critical applications..
2018-05-28T16:15:18Z beach: jeosol: Yes, if they would just understand that. :)
2018-05-28T16:15:31Z phenoble: beach:  good plausible point
2018-05-28T16:16:07Z xristos: phenoble: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2018-05-28T16:16:49Z jeosol: JPL as in jet propulsion lab?
2018-05-28T16:17:07Z xristos: nod
2018-05-28T16:17:42Z jeosol: xristos: thanks for that link. Should be interesting to read
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2018-05-28T16:18:45Z jeosol: once spoke to guy at 21s inc, some company in the east coast, US, using mostly allegro, you guys may have heard of the company. He did say they use CL actively for defense projects
2018-05-28T16:19:06Z beach: _death: When I hear expressions such as "on the radar", I think of failure to do a real cost and risk analysis, and I think of incompetent decision makers making decisions based on "gut feeling", even though they have neither training nor experience with the alternatives.
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2018-05-28T16:20:46Z beach: _death: Slide 37 of my talk contains phrases that I hear over and over again.
2018-05-28T16:20:47Z _death: beach: ok.. when I used this expression, I meant that I recognize that it's off the radar given the current state of the world.. so in this case I would be the decision maker
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2018-05-28T16:21:21Z beach: _death: Sure, I can admit that there are restrictions when you are faced with an existing code base.
2018-05-28T16:22:41Z beach: I explain that "We need all the speed we can get... so we choose C++" really means "No matter how minuscule the additional performance turns out to be with C++, we want it, and we are willing to spend any amount of money and any amount of time to get it."
2018-05-28T16:22:44Z phenoble: xristos:  thanks for the anecdotal read.
2018-05-28T16:22:53Z _death: I use lisp (incl. ffi to said libraries) when I can get away with it, and when I know it'll give me a good advantage.. but otherwise, it really depends on what you're doing, and I'd be wary of generalization
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2018-05-28T16:23:46Z phenoble: _death: I very much agree with the generalization bit.
2018-05-28T16:23:54Z beach: I explain that "All our programmers already know Java, so we choose Java" really means "I know for a fact that there is no other language out there that would be so much more productive for this project that it could compensate for the investment in training our programmers".
2018-05-28T16:24:00Z beach: etc. etc.
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2018-05-28T16:24:45Z beach: _death: Totally agree.  Hence my emphasis on risk analysis (which is most often not even considered).
2018-05-28T16:25:31Z phenoble: beach:  But that argument does sound very reasonable to me, in a real-world scenario.
2018-05-28T16:26:05Z phenoble: beach:  Or put another way:  it's not an argument of which it'd be immediately obvious to me that it'd be blatantly wrong. Always. Everywhere. All the time.
2018-05-28T16:26:21Z phenoble: s/it'd/it's/
2018-05-28T16:26:28Z phenoble: s/be//
2018-05-28T16:26:38Z beach: phenoble: So you are against making an informed comparison between alternatives?
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2018-05-28T16:26:47Z phenoble: beach:  I did not say that.
2018-05-28T16:27:10Z beach: Sorry, misread what you wronte.
2018-05-28T16:27:12Z beach: wrote
2018-05-28T16:27:23Z beach: Er, no I didn't.
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2018-05-28T16:27:57Z beach: Yes, it sounds plausible, but that is also why decision makers have to force themselves to establish a real budget.
2018-05-28T16:28:00Z phenoble: beach:  I said that it is not obvious to me that the decision against using Java in favour of e.g. CL (disclaimer: I hate Java), in a business context, is obvious in favour of CL. All the time. Everywhere.
2018-05-28T16:28:52Z beach: phenoble: Of course.  All I am saying is that, in order to make an informed decision, you cant rely on "gut feeling", because it is often totally wrong.
2018-05-28T16:29:22Z beach: phenoble: It is plausible that Java or C++ comes out as the right answer, but then it should be the result of a real cost and risk analysis.
2018-05-28T16:29:25Z phenoble: beach:  Yes. But if that is the take-away message, the take-away message seems a little thin to me.
2018-05-28T16:29:32Z phenoble: beach: isn't that obvious?
2018-05-28T16:29:49Z phoe: phenoble: not really
2018-05-28T16:29:52Z _death: in many applications, it may also be the case that Lisp would only need a little help.. and if that is done then it's awesome.. but then it also depends on the people you work with and their background..
2018-05-28T16:30:03Z beach: Not to me.  It means that the software industry is making hugely incorrect decisions because they don't know how to make such analyses.
2018-05-28T16:30:46Z beach: _death: And in my talk, I also introduce the possibility of hiring different people for a new project.  That is another item in the cost analysis.
2018-05-28T16:31:05Z jeosol: from the link xristos provided, the VP shut down the use of lisp, from the write out, without much discussion, hmmm.
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2018-05-28T16:31:39Z beginner_supreme: Maybe people aren't exposed to more languages, so they learn the ol' java and ye ol' c++ and stick to those forever because they're "good enough"
2018-05-28T16:31:41Z jeosol: so you don't get a chance to explain any merits
2018-05-28T16:32:10Z beach: beginner_supreme: And then those people are promoted to decision makers.  Go figure!
2018-05-28T16:32:30Z jackdaniel: doesn't same problem of ignorance apply to any language (Lisp included)?
2018-05-28T16:32:46Z beach: It applies to people.
2018-05-28T16:32:48Z phenoble: jeosol:  yes, I found the reasoning to be a little on the light side as well.
2018-05-28T16:33:04Z _death: beach: I see.. that may work in some fields.. some are quite specialized though and an informed analysis would likely still result in the "status quo" language of that the ecosystem
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2018-05-28T16:33:20Z beginner_supreme: True but I for example enjoy reading about languages so I go looking for things like CL, Forth, and tcl.
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2018-05-28T16:33:21Z jeosol: phenoble: yeah.
2018-05-28T16:33:26Z beginner_supreme: You need a genuine curiosity
2018-05-28T16:33:49Z beach: _death: Again, I agree.  And in such fields, the cost of a different language choice would show up as a huge negative budget item.
2018-05-28T16:33:50Z beginner_supreme: That most people don't really have, they just consume languages and compilers
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2018-05-28T16:34:35Z jackdaniel: good for you that you have a) time for learning new things; b) you are genuinely curious
2018-05-28T16:34:40Z phenoble: beginner_supreme, anecdotically:   "good enough" is often a goal in life you very much hope to achieve
2018-05-28T16:35:51Z beginner_supreme: I should write that down, there is wisdom in the quote
2018-05-28T16:35:57Z jackdaniel: but it all comes to what you consider your goal. If you treat programming languages as a vehicle to carry your thought, then finding "good enough" language is an acceptable heuristic
2018-05-28T16:36:19Z jackdaniel: spending considerable amount of life on studying programming languages - arguably is not (given stated constraints)
2018-05-28T16:36:49Z jackdaniel: but I'm getting offtopic, sorry :-)
2018-05-28T16:37:48Z beginner_supreme: Perhaps selecting [close to] all-encompassing language would allow one to do both. In this case CL is a good choice, at least in my limited learning experience.
2018-05-28T16:37:48Z phenoble: jackdaniel:  oh, we've ventured off discussing lisp in particular a while ago. I do find the discussion still relevant though.
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2018-05-28T16:38:19Z _death: beach: maybe your talk is aimed towards a target audience that does not consist of Lispers, so the intention is just to make possible a different train of thought with such considerations..
2018-05-28T16:38:59Z beach: Totally true.
2018-05-28T16:39:16Z jeosol: saw an aws talk on microservices where they stressed multi-language, i.e., used the best language for each service and make services talk to others. Is this really viable?
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2018-05-28T16:39:44Z beginner_supreme: I was just sitting here pondering this question and saw your message when I looked up
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2018-05-28T16:40:48Z phenoble: jeosol:  good question. I've been learning haskell,elisp,CL and brushed up on some serious Python programming in the past 12 months, next to a day-job doing C++. I'm doing fine, but I suppose it's not for everyone.
2018-05-28T16:41:38Z jeosol: I didn't mean it not doable, I was coming from the point of building, maintaining a team
2018-05-28T16:42:07Z _death: today polyglot programming is much more widely practiced, I would think
2018-05-28T16:42:18Z jeosol: if each person in each of a microservice decides to use a different language, or have a small set of languagges, e.g., python for ML tasks, C/C++ for critical tasks, etc
2018-05-28T16:42:24Z _death: with both the good and the bad..
2018-05-28T16:42:27Z beginner_supreme: Maybe multi-language is viable when there are many people involved, but I would imagine that a single language (CL) that can absorb different features via macros/read-macros is better for smaller teams?
2018-05-28T16:43:03Z phenoble: jeosol:  I didn't mean to comment on possibility, just that I can very much relate to that question :).   I'd also guess it be pretty hard to manage (a) dev team(s) in such a "context".
2018-05-28T16:43:04Z jeosol: beginner_supreme: yeah, I think the mult-language is more amenable to large teams,
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2018-05-28T16:44:02Z phenoble: jeosol:  this could be a fine read for some in that context:   https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/
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2018-05-28T16:44:49Z phenoble: (apologies for slight off-topicness, though author makes case against using too many languages in single company)
2018-05-28T16:45:32Z jeosol: phenoble: thx. Will read.
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2018-05-28T16:45:41Z beginner_supreme: Anyways - may I work as a lisp developer, amen.
2018-05-28T16:46:08Z beginner_supreme: Was a great talk guys! Bye
2018-05-28T16:46:14Z jeosol: maybe have a small set of languages, each focused on certain strengths.
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2018-05-28T16:46:48Z phenoble: jeosol:   actually, that's not the article. I was looking for his telling of his personal story. -Very- good read. Somewhere on that page...
2018-05-28T16:46:50Z phenoble: (sorry)
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2018-05-28T16:51:19Z jeosol: phenoble: ok, no worries,
2018-05-28T16:52:00Z jeosol: this was good discussion overall, some good points. may be no need to explain my choice of CL
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2018-05-28T16:53:49Z jeosol: phenoble: do you ML stuff with python yet?
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2018-05-28T17:01:15Z phenoble: jeosol:  funny of you to ask, I'm planning on working on my machine-learning skills, and given the available tools and resources out there, Python will indeed be my choice for that.
2018-05-28T17:01:53Z phenoble: jeosol:  but I am about to have a look at Racket for Scientific Programming soon, too.
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2018-05-28T17:02:36Z phenoble: jeosol:  ...just got to finally finish works on my every-growing (but also every-improving) emacs configuration in elisp :)
2018-05-28T17:02:49Z phenoble: s/every/ever/
2018-05-28T17:03:59Z _death: write a burgled-batteries-like thing for Lua and use Torch in Lisp..
2018-05-28T17:04:43Z jeosol: cool.
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2018-05-28T17:05:39Z jeosol: with more players in that space, we can add stuff to ML libs in CL.
2018-05-28T17:07:31Z phenoble: interesting.
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2018-05-28T17:56:51Z vtomole: Xach: You work for Rigetti?
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2018-05-28T19:14:47Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/2P03YKX
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2018-05-28T19:16:56Z _death: are the read-time evaluations really necessary?
2018-05-28T19:18:59Z oleo: where ?
2018-05-28T19:19:12Z _death: your paste
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2018-05-28T19:20:04Z oleo: it's not only in my own paste it's also in it's own source that way.........
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2018-05-28T19:20:13Z oleo: if you know what i mean
2018-05-28T19:20:51Z _death: all too well
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2018-05-28T19:22:04Z oleo: without the text-margin stuff the frame-header gets too broad to the right
2018-05-28T19:22:23Z oleo: and i really don't need a horizontal scroller
2018-05-28T19:22:54Z oleo: when it's all arranged to be wrapped around the text-margin
2018-05-28T19:23:11Z oleo: :end-of-line :end-of-page etc...
2018-05-28T19:23:40Z oleo: so horizintal scrolling gets unnecessary in this case
2018-05-28T19:23:48Z oleo: and horizontal scrolling is a bummer anyway
2018-05-28T19:23:59Z oleo: i mean i don't like it
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2018-05-28T19:29:33Z Josh_2: Is there a library for the Instagram API?
2018-05-28T19:29:50Z oleo: oO
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2018-05-28T19:32:00Z Josh_2: Guess I'll have to use Python :O
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2018-05-28T19:32:47Z oleo: did you look in cliki ?
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2018-05-28T19:32:54Z oleo: and common-lisp.net ?
2018-05-28T19:33:39Z Josh_2: Nothing on Clik8i
2018-05-28T19:33:44Z oleo: ok
2018-05-28T19:34:09Z oleo: well then you have to write one
2018-05-28T19:34:12Z oleo: lol
2018-05-28T19:34:15Z oleo: congrats!
2018-05-28T19:34:17Z oleo: hahahahaa
2018-05-28T19:34:17Z Josh_2: Hopefully gonna have my first paid dev work over the summer because of my Uni project that I wrote in common lisp :)
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2018-05-28T19:35:38Z Josh_2: Nothing on Common-lisp.net either so yeh I suppose one day I'll have to write one
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2018-05-28T19:39:50Z oleo: i'm far away from writing libs.....
2018-05-28T19:40:23Z oleo: just coping with getting my text-editor run correctly ....
2018-05-28T19:41:58Z comborico1611: I'm right there with you.
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2018-05-28T19:42:57Z oleo: and learn further etc....
2018-05-28T19:42:58Z oleo: meh
2018-05-28T19:43:00Z oleo: :)
2018-05-28T19:43:16Z beginner_supreme: Same, learning vim to use vlime
2018-05-28T19:43:32Z oleo: vlime ?
2018-05-28T19:43:34Z oleo: wth
2018-05-28T19:43:38Z oleo: you mean slime ?
2018-05-28T19:43:49Z oleo: or is that a thing ?
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2018-05-28T19:44:30Z beginner_supreme: I mean vlime, it's like slime but for vim. Similar to the slimv project except slimv is written in python, while vlime is a mix of CL and C
2018-05-28T19:44:37Z Josh_2: Why would you learn vim to use vlime?
2018-05-28T19:44:51Z beginner_supreme: emacs frightens me
2018-05-28T19:44:56Z _death: what's the "e" in "vlime"?
2018-05-28T19:45:03Z Josh_2: And not just learn Emacs (the superior editor) and Slime :O
2018-05-28T19:45:30Z oleo: hmmm
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2018-05-28T19:45:53Z oleo: no idea but i'll definitely use stumpwm again some time in the future.....
2018-05-28T19:45:59Z beginner_supreme: I'd love to but I saw C-c C-x C-h C-<insert letters> and my brain cache had a few misses
2018-05-28T19:46:10Z _death: beginner_supreme: did you try portacle
2018-05-28T19:46:23Z oleo: if i need an all lisp, minimal DE
2018-05-28T19:46:23Z beginner_supreme: No
2018-05-28T19:46:29Z oleo: eheh
2018-05-28T19:46:50Z Josh_2: You don't have to repeatadly push control
2018-05-28T19:47:52Z _death: beginner_supreme: it has emacs already configured and you drop straight into a CL repl
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2018-05-28T19:48:22Z oleo: welp, i'm trying to not use emacs
2018-05-28T19:48:27Z beginner_supreme: I'll check it out then.
2018-05-28T19:48:43Z oleo: i try to use climacs as much as i can
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2018-05-28T19:49:07Z oleo: tho from the commandline i'm using emacs as a vim of sorts
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2018-05-28T19:49:56Z oleo: maybe someone will write a ncurses backend too....
2018-05-28T19:50:02Z beginner_supreme: There's also something similar to slime called Lem editor
2018-05-28T19:50:06Z beginner_supreme: Apparently
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2018-05-28T19:50:36Z beginner_supreme: So far I've been using a regular editor without the repl server connection.
2018-05-28T19:50:53Z beginner_supreme: And using macros to reduce the need for repetition
2018-05-28T19:50:59Z phenoble: beginner_supreme:  you should try spacemacs (an emacs distribution) with evil (a vim emulation). Both together do away with what many would consider, Emacs' unintuitive keybindings.
2018-05-28T19:51:07Z _death: I would say this approach misses out very important aspects of Lisp
2018-05-28T19:51:37Z beginner_supreme: Yes =\
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2018-05-28T19:53:30Z beginner_supreme: I'll look into portacle and spacemacs (disclaimer: I don't use vim either - it just seemed less steep a learning curve)
2018-05-28T19:54:08Z phenoble: beginner_supreme:  oh, any rabbit hole you go down into, you'll go down deep =)
2018-05-28T19:54:16Z phenoble: be it vim or emacs
2018-05-28T19:55:29Z phenoble: but it's worth it - consider it an investment that'll net returns many years on
2018-05-28T19:55:38Z _death: I don't know if the curve is that steep... especially if you're going to learn Lisp anyway
2018-05-28T19:55:49Z oleo:  http://dpaste.com/1T2EEKY my startup file for default branch mcclim-master
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2018-05-28T19:55:53Z Josh_2: I can't say I'm an expert in Emacs, and it wasn't difficult to pick up
2018-05-28T19:56:04Z oleo:  http://dpaste.com/2RH15GA my startup file for branch mcclim-freetype2
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2018-05-28T19:57:49Z beginner_supreme: Thanks for the suggestions and the conversation!
2018-05-28T19:57:51Z phenoble: _death, beginner_supreme:  The steepness might also depend on how satisfied you are with the default configurations of vim and emacs. I know that I wasn't, so,... 2 years later I'm on freenode in #lisp.
2018-05-28T19:58:28Z oleo: i'm not sure why an explicit upgrade of asdf after loading quicklisp makes so much problems
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2018-05-28T19:59:02Z oleo: but this way quicklisp can decide if it wants to upgrade stuff from the asdf in common-lisp/source/asdf
2018-05-28T19:59:02Z beginner_supreme: phenoble: Haha
2018-05-28T19:59:14Z oleo: so ......
2018-05-28T19:59:58Z beginner_supreme: Anyways, thanks for the great conversation everyone, till next time [possibly with other nicknames, don't feel like registering yet]
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2018-05-28T20:04:50Z aeth: Imagine if beginner_supreme registered and continued using that name for decades, while becoming one of the biggest experts in Lisp.
2018-05-28T20:06:27Z Bike: all socrateasing it up
2018-05-28T20:06:44Z _death: next time we should suggest expert_sovereign
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2018-05-28T20:39:37Z pjb: aeth: well it would be a major inconvenience, since he used _ instead of - in his name…
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2018-05-28T20:47:43Z aeth: pjb: well the lisp community is the only community I know of in Freenode not to use -'s in channel names
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2018-05-28T20:47:49Z aeth: #lispweb #lispcafe #lispgames etc.
2018-05-28T20:48:22Z aeth: I know it's because - is something like a namespace in Freenode and they're all (afaik) independent, but it's still kind of funny
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2018-05-28T22:07:05Z aeth: I wonder if a normally AOT Lisp could JIT FFI to increase CFFI performance. Apparently JIT CFFI function calls have lower overhead than equivalent C function calls. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17171252
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2018-05-28T22:39:45Z ZigPaw: but the difference is probably insignificant (like few cycles). If you need to gain so few cycles, you are probably better off inlining the function (and it might be done by JIT I think). But I'm not an expert.
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2018-05-28T23:27:17Z LdBeth: oleo (IRC): there is a ncurses IDE largely based on climacs, https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
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2018-05-28T23:28:48Z p_l: aeth: quite probably the "optimization" involved is already done by most lisps :)
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2018-05-28T23:29:18Z p_l: (tl;dr one level of indirection less due to not using relocation/PLT and instead dynamically loading addresses into known space)
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2018-05-28T23:42:16Z aeth: It would be interesting to benchmark. SBCL was not included in any of these benchmarks for some reason even though that's what everyone's interested in.
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2018-05-29T01:09:33Z black_13: as anyone here used ECL with C++
2018-05-29T01:09:43Z black_13: or embedded lisp in C++
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2018-05-29T01:23:02Z White_Flame: black_13: Clasp is a CL implementation integrated with C++ and LLVM
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2018-05-29T01:23:45Z black_13: that is good but I interest in ECL
2018-05-29T01:23:49Z black_13: i am
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2018-05-29T01:25:03Z White_Flame: I'm not sure, but Clasp might have initially forked off of ECL
2018-05-29T01:25:09Z Bike: it did.
2018-05-29T01:25:14Z black_13: oh
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2018-05-29T01:26:30Z black_13: I have to work on Windows
2018-05-29T01:28:08Z black_13: and clasp does not seem to work on Windows/Visual Studio
2018-05-29T01:28:19Z Bike: it doesn't, no.
2018-05-29T01:29:21Z black_13: and ECL does
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2018-05-29T04:04:52Z black_13: is there lisp that can be embedded that does work with visual c++
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2018-05-29T04:06:53Z Zhivago: Perhaps ECLS?
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2018-05-29T04:35:08Z black_13: Zhivago: its what i have tried
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2018-05-29T04:43:36Z black_13: jackdaniel: how do I call foreign in a dll from ecl
2018-05-29T04:44:12Z Zhivago: Why windows?
2018-05-29T04:45:02Z pillton: black_13: CFFI can be used to foreign calls. https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/
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2018-05-29T04:46:15Z black_13: because I want to write for customer who use windows
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2018-05-29T04:50:12Z black_13: pillton: why do people like you do what you do?
2018-05-29T04:50:42Z pillton: What did I do?
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2018-05-29T04:51:38Z black_13: i say i need x and you say why not abandon x and you choose y
2018-05-29T04:52:03Z black_13: i like linux but ...
2018-05-29T04:52:28Z pillton: CFFI works from ECL. CFFI allows you to load a shared object library and invoke functions inside it.
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2018-05-29T04:52:46Z black_13: in windows
2018-05-29T04:52:49Z black_13: ?
2018-05-29T04:52:54Z pillton: Which, in my opinion, satisfies "foreign in a dll from ecl".
2018-05-29T04:53:09Z black_13: excelsior
2018-05-29T04:54:20Z pillton: What does "excelsior" mean?
2018-05-29T04:56:20Z pillton: black_13: I have used CFFI on windows to invoke foreign functions. The only thing that I haven't done is tried cffi:load-foreign-library on windows.
2018-05-29T04:56:47Z black_13: ah
2018-05-29T04:57:02Z black_13: how did you use on windows
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2018-05-29T05:00:48Z pillton: The user manual is there. Start here https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcfun.html#defcfun
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2018-05-29T05:31:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-29T05:36:34Z duncan_bayne: Possibly stupid question: is there an idiomatic way of accessing data in lists that are neither alists nor plists?  Specifically, in the form: '(("Name" ("first" "Duncan" "last" "Bayne")) ("Phone" ("area" "01" "number" "123456")))
2018-05-29T05:37:11Z beach: Looks like an alist to me.
2018-05-29T05:39:13Z Zhivago: duncan: destructuring-bind ?
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2018-05-29T05:41:11Z beach: duncan_bayne: (assoc "Name" <the-list> :key #'string-equal)
2018-05-29T05:42:18Z White_Flame: you can generally use FIND for custom cases, but many of these functions have :key or :test style optional parameters to configure what you want
2018-05-29T05:43:03Z White_Flame: of course, each nested layer will require another application of FIND
2018-05-29T05:43:12Z White_Flame: (or whichever function you use)
2018-05-29T05:43:22Z White_Flame: there generally isn't a single function for deep traversal using multiple keys
2018-05-29T05:43:38Z White_Flame: but that's what DEFUN is for ;)
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2018-05-29T05:45:50Z White_Flame: the Alexandria library has WHEN-LET* which allows you to cascade multiple forms, continuing if each step yields non-NIL
2018-05-29T05:45:58Z White_Flame: that's often handy for writing deep traversals
2018-05-29T05:46:20Z duncan_bayne: White_Flame: thanks - that was the sanity-check I needed, I'm new to CL and was afraid I was missing something.  Happy to roll my own here
2018-05-29T05:46:37Z duncan_bayne: Just didn't want to reinvent the wheel :)
2018-05-29T05:46:47Z beach: duncan_bayne: It *IS* an alist.
2018-05-29T05:46:54Z beach: No need to roll your own.
2018-05-29T05:47:32Z White_Flame: yes, for ("Name" ("first" "Duncan" "last" "Bayne")), the CAR is "Name" and the CDR is (("first" "Duncan" "last" "Bayne"))
2018-05-29T05:47:46Z White_Flame: so it's fully compatible with a-list functions
2018-05-29T05:48:10Z White_Flame: also, to be more idiomatic, you should probably use symbols, like (:first "Duncan" :last "Bayne") or something
2018-05-29T05:48:34Z White_Flame: also also, there's #clnoobs which is more appropriate for learning the basics
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2018-05-29T05:51:11Z duncan_bayne: Right I'll head off to #clnoobs, because my attempts to use a-list functions on that structure have so far been failures
2018-05-29T05:51:14Z duncan_bayne: Thanks :)
2018-05-29T05:51:38Z beach: duncan_bayne: Probably because you didn't supply the :test keyword argument.
2018-05-29T05:51:49Z beach: duncan_bayne: But I showed it to you in my example.
2018-05-29T05:52:39Z pillton: What is the difference between #lisp and #clnoobs?
2018-05-29T05:52:50Z White_Flame: #lisp is easier to find/guess
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2018-05-29T05:54:44Z beach is not sure why he is ignored by duncan_bayne.
2018-05-29T05:55:13Z pillton: You are too nice.
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2018-05-29T05:55:33Z beach: Hmm.
2018-05-29T05:55:53Z duncan_bayne: beach: Sorry, didn't mean to be ignoring you, have been looking into your example
2018-05-29T05:56:10Z pillton: Maybe lisp is like coffee baristas. You need to find the really old and grumpy baristas to get a good coffee.
2018-05-29T05:57:18Z jackdaniel: black_13: like any other foreign function. I'd use cffi, but ffi interfaces are documented too (ECL's FFI has an API defined in UFFI)
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2018-05-29T05:58:58Z jackdaniel: black_13: if you have doubts, you may want to see examples/ directory
2018-05-29T05:59:20Z jackdaniel: fyi all examples are BSD-licensed, so you may freely use them
2018-05-29T05:59:28Z jackdaniel: without any serious license implications
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2018-05-29T05:59:49Z jackdaniel: (rest of the ECL is licensed under LGPL-2.1+0
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2018-05-29T06:06:18Z duncan_bayne: beach: Yep, (assoc "Phone" the-list :test #'string-equal) => ("Phone" ("area" "01" "number" "123456"))
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2018-05-29T06:08:57Z White_Flame: if your keys were symbols, then you wouldn't need to override :test
2018-05-29T06:09:26Z duncan_bayne: White_Flame: yes; this list is being returned by a library that is deserializing it from JSON
2018-05-29T06:09:32Z White_Flame: ah
2018-05-29T06:10:20Z White_Flame: the library might also have transforms that it can apply to object keys, where you could intern the strings into symbols, preferrably changing their case to Lisp default
2018-05-29T06:10:45Z flip214: so it should be (:phone (:area "01" :number "123456"))
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2018-05-29T06:12:17Z duncan_bayne: flip214: yes, because the assoc example provided by beach returns a list of strings, which doesn't play nice with getf
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2018-05-29T06:12:52Z jackdaniel: s/0/)/
2018-05-29T06:13:16Z beach: clhs getf
2018-05-29T06:13:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
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2018-05-29T06:22:53Z duncan_bayne: Yeah, that's what I mean; getf is no help with the data structure returned by the library, because (eq "foo" "foo") => NIL
2018-05-29T06:23:05Z beach: Indeed.
2018-05-29T06:23:45Z beach: But you don't have to use GETF.
2018-05-29T06:26:08Z White_Flame: MEMBER is handy for those sorts of situations
2018-05-29T06:26:27Z White_Flame: clhs member
2018-05-29T06:26:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
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2018-05-29T06:28:10Z makomo: morning
2018-05-29T06:28:40Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2018-05-29T06:31:19Z makomo: hi :-)
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2018-05-29T07:16:42Z flip214: If I have a JAR file created via ABCL, is there already something to decompile that back to CL sources?
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2018-05-29T07:29:07Z White_Flame: I'm not sure any compiling CL has any tool to decompile back to CL
2018-05-29T07:29:33Z White_Flame: unless the source code is literally included, reversing the process is not really programmatically reliable
2018-05-29T07:30:26Z flip214: well, there are decompilers to C, too... so I thought I'd ask
2018-05-29T07:30:53Z flip214: I also have a few __loader__._ files -- these include the function names and docstrings in many (SYSTEM:FSET ...) calls
2018-05-29T07:31:22Z easye: flip214: How'd you create the JAR?  If via ASDF-JAR there should still be Lisp source along with the fasls.
2018-05-29T07:32:17Z easye: But no, there is no way back from the .cls files compiled via ABCL from Lisp source.
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2018-05-29T07:34:33Z knobo: Could I get some feedback on my first package using cffi, please? https://github.com/knobo/cl-sysinfo
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2018-05-29T07:35:54Z flip214: easye: I didn't ;)
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2018-05-29T07:42:41Z knobo: Maybe I could sumit it to quicklisp
2018-05-29T07:43:49Z shka: knobo: api is like 3 times larger it should be
2018-05-29T07:44:15Z knobo: shka: ok, explain
2018-05-29T07:44:38Z knobo: Should not be alist and list version?
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2018-05-29T07:44:53Z shka: i would probabbly stick to the alist
2018-05-29T07:45:11Z shka: but point is: any of those do the same thing in the essence
2018-05-29T07:45:22Z knobo: I just thought it would be convenient.
2018-05-29T07:45:56Z shka: convient devolvs into bloated rather quickly
2018-05-29T07:47:13Z shka: (>= (c-sysinfo info) 0)
2018-05-29T07:47:21Z shka: 79 line
2018-05-29T07:48:02Z shka: usually, i would suggest to signal error instead of returning nil in scenarios like this
2018-05-29T07:48:33Z shka: also, i suggest to add docstrings
2018-05-29T07:49:03Z shka: if you remove redundant functions, you will be left with just one function to document :-)
2018-05-29T07:51:19Z knobo: shka: unless I also keep the decode-loads funtion. But maybe I should not decode the loads.
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2018-05-29T07:52:06Z shka: decode-loads was not in the readme so i just ignored it
2018-05-29T07:52:39Z shka: but i think it is kinda useful
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2018-05-29T08:08:58Z knobo: shka: Thank you for the feedback :)
2018-05-29T08:10:22Z knobo: Maybe I could define a variable that keeps a c-sysinfo struc, and reuse it in the function call.
2018-05-29T08:11:00Z shka: what for?
2018-05-29T08:11:17Z shka: keep it simple
2018-05-29T08:11:51Z shka: use simple means to accomplish simple tasks
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2018-05-29T08:24:38Z knobo: So, just one function then: sysinfo, which returns an alist.
2018-05-29T08:25:31Z shka: for instance
2018-05-29T08:25:58Z shka: there are multiple ways to do it, none is objectivly better
2018-05-29T08:26:11Z shka: but i would stick to either alist or plist
2018-05-29T08:26:33Z knobo: hmmm.. my alist is actually a plist :O
2018-05-29T08:26:47Z shka: lol, ok
2018-05-29T08:26:51Z shka: correct docs
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2018-05-29T09:07:32Z knobo: so, is it usefull enough now, that I should see if quicklisp wants it?
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2018-05-29T12:12:36Z black_13: jackdaniel: you had said about ffi sorry i had to restart my computer
2018-05-29T12:14:07Z jackdaniel: I said that I recommend using CFFI
2018-05-29T12:14:18Z jackdaniel: your dll libraries should work with most CL implementations, not only with ECL
2018-05-29T12:15:01Z jackdaniel: if you are curious about ECL's FFI implementation, then you can read about it here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/ecldoc/Extensions.html#Foreign-Function-Interface
2018-05-29T12:15:46Z jackdaniel: generally it follows UFFI API, which reference manual is included here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/pt04.html
2018-05-29T12:17:58Z black_13: if had a function "void foo(void);" defined in a .dll and had normal exports and this was built using visual studio how would i call
2018-05-29T12:18:57Z jackdaniel: do you expect me to read the documentation for you?
2018-05-29T12:19:21Z jackdaniel: first you load the library (see cffi's doc) then you call defcfun (see cffi doc)
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2018-05-29T12:19:48Z jackdaniel: (defcfun "foo" :void) ; should create function foo which could be called like CL-REPL> (foo)
2018-05-29T12:20:13Z black_13: thanks
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2018-05-29T12:21:29Z black_13: the docs are terse and opaque when first look a them
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2018-05-29T12:22:41Z jackdaniel: often another good resource on how to use things is reading tests/ or examples/
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2018-05-29T12:23:33Z black_13: you mean in the ecl sources
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2018-05-29T12:24:00Z black_13: how do you compile the these from msvc
2018-05-29T12:24:08Z black_13: these from msvc
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2018-05-29T12:27:29Z jackdaniel: I mean cffi sources or any library you want to use
2018-05-29T12:27:37Z jackdaniel: compilation from msvc is covered in documentation
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2018-05-29T12:28:31Z jackdaniel: while I understand that reading documentation may be a demanding task for various reason, that's why documentation is written - so a person who wrote it doesn't have to explain things over and over again
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2018-05-29T12:35:48Z black_13: its funny a couple days ago I though what great guy who did ecl
2018-05-29T12:35:55Z black_13: but your really a jerk
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2018-05-29T12:46:40Z jackdaniel: it's not a nice thing to say
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2018-05-29T12:48:11Z jackdaniel: but at least someone *thought* I'm a nice guy :)
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2018-05-29T12:51:34Z heisig: black_13: You are not being polite.  jackdaniel is actually a great guy.
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2018-05-29T12:52:24Z dlowe: people come to help on IRC because a) they want to know something they can't find in the manual, b) they don't want to read the manual, c) they need emotional support while trying to use your thing
2018-05-29T12:53:35Z jackdaniel: thanks heisig :)
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2018-05-29T12:58:53Z TMA: If insults are to be meted out, it shall be done with dignity, style and proper grammar.
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2018-05-29T18:28:20Z beginner_supreme: Hey all, curious if high-performance compilers create contiguous objects when given element-type, so for (make-array n :element-type some-object/struct), the rough equivalent in C would be: malloc(n * sizeof(some-object/struct));
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2018-05-29T18:29:47Z beginner_supreme: Is this sort of contiguous allocation done at all for these types of expressions (not just for arrays) or are only pointers contiguous, having an extra indirection
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2018-05-29T18:37:20Z copec: I'm not sure if all compilers do, but the presumption is that you are giving it sufficient information so that it can.
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2018-05-29T18:40:37Z beginner_supreme: I read one opinion of it on stack overflow, and the idea is that it would stress the garbage collector out if such an optimization were done. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29008545/any-ways-to-allocate-flattened-array-of-structure-as-c-in-common-lisp
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2018-05-29T18:42:12Z stylewarning: beginner_supreme: in Common Lisp, usually will not be allocated necessarily like that
2018-05-29T18:42:13Z beginner_supreme: But I wonder how it is in real implementations...
2018-05-29T18:42:19Z copec: If you have reached a point that that is important enough, I would consult the specific implementation docs and/or source
2018-05-29T18:42:19Z beginner_supreme: Oh I see
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2018-05-29T18:42:44Z stylewarning: beginner_supreme: it'll be more like:   void **array = malloc(n * sizeof (void *))
2018-05-29T18:43:01Z stylewarning: beginner_supreme: followed by n allocations of the objects, which will inadvertently be contiguous
2018-05-29T18:43:09Z stylewarning: (but they may not remain contiguous
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2018-05-29T18:44:26Z beginner_supreme: I see, alright then
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2018-05-29T18:46:55Z beginner_supreme: For the future, are such inquiries suitable for this channel or must I refer them to #clnoobs?
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2018-05-29T18:48:30Z copec: I think you're okay either way beginner_supreme
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2018-05-29T18:48:44Z beginner_supreme: Okay cool
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2018-05-29T18:50:11Z copec: I tend to ask in clnoobs first, and reflect the question in here or one of the other CL channels if I can't get an answer.  There are some pretty knowledgable people in there though, it's not newb on newb action
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2018-05-29T19:20:16Z White_Flame: beginner_supreme: garbage collectors can clump together data references by their nature.  you can stack-allocate in CL (dynamic-extent).  and of course, type-specified vectors as you mentioned
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2018-05-29T19:22:08Z beginner_supreme: So the allocated objects themselves would be contiguous, but would the vector would still contain pointers to those objects, not the objects themselves. Right?
2018-05-29T19:22:27Z beginner_supreme: I mean that is good enough, if the gc places objects together this way.
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2018-05-29T19:23:05Z beginner_supreme: Understood!
2018-05-29T19:23:11Z White_Flame: vectors of numbers, characters, etc, can often be packed together.  Vectors of structs and such might not
2018-05-29T19:23:26Z White_Flame: vectors of cons lists pretty much won't
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2018-05-29T19:24:19Z White_Flame: of course, you need to specialize its type as you create it to try to gain such advantages
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2018-05-29T19:25:00Z dlowe: even if you have a vector of structs, they're not going to be laid out in memory like they would in C
2018-05-29T19:26:34Z White_Flame: you might get the struct slots themselves, but structs themselves don't use special packed representations.  If the slot value fits in a machine word, it'll be in the struct.  Else it'll be a pointer
2018-05-29T19:26:54Z White_Flame: erm, you might get a typed vector to hold a linear array of the struct slots themselves...
2018-05-29T19:27:08Z makomo: dlowe: is that guaranteed or just something that's not really done by compilers or something else?
2018-05-29T19:27:16Z White_Flame: no guarantees
2018-05-29T19:27:32Z White_Flame: the vast majority of this sort of thing is left up to the implementation
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2018-05-29T19:27:45Z White_Flame: so no, CLHS doesn't bar optimizations like this
2018-05-29T19:27:50Z makomo: so hypothetically, you *could* have a vector in which the structs are laid out contigiously without any indirection
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2018-05-29T19:27:56Z makomo: contiguously*
2018-05-29T19:27:56Z White_Flame: yes
2018-05-29T19:27:59Z makomo: right
2018-05-29T19:28:12Z makomo: and what happens to this vector if you redefine the struct?
2018-05-29T19:28:32Z White_Flame: but since dereferencing is though standard functions, as the number of types of backends to those functions increases, so does the amount of type testing & dispatch
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2018-05-29T19:28:45Z White_Flame: redefining structs generally yells at you in any case
2018-05-29T19:29:09Z makomo: as in, it's undefined/impl-def by the standard or?
2018-05-29T19:29:39Z Bike: redefinition is undefined
2018-05-29T19:29:39Z White_Flame: CLOS objects can be defined to migrate to new versions of their class.  instantiated structs keep their old structure around if you re-defstruct
2018-05-29T19:29:44Z White_Flame: (in practice)
2018-05-29T19:29:54Z stylewarning: the real problem imo is the meaning of (setf (aref packed-array i) new-struct)
2018-05-29T19:30:17Z makomo: Bike: and redefinition of CLOS classes is defined i guess?
2018-05-29T19:30:17Z stylewarning: how referencing/pointers/etc work. You would need typed pointers into typed arrays
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2018-05-29T19:30:34Z Bike: It is, yes
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2018-05-29T19:31:02Z White_Flame: makomo: and this is why C-style optimizations are very warily handled in CL
2018-05-29T19:31:07Z White_Flame: at least, memory/layout optimizations
2018-05-29T19:31:10Z White_Flame: because things can change
2018-05-29T19:31:43Z stylewarning: array-of-structs has always been on my CL wishlist though!
2018-05-29T19:31:57Z stylewarning: it would be so cool if (UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE S) == S for a structure type S
2018-05-29T19:31:58Z makomo: White_Flame: mhm, i see
2018-05-29T19:32:05Z Bike: array of structs messes with eq semantics
2018-05-29T19:32:08Z Bike: but it would be nice, yes
2018-05-29T19:32:14Z White_Flame: stylewarning: I'm sure you could use FFI stuff to do custom memory management
2018-05-29T19:32:19Z White_Flame: even without talking to foreign code
2018-05-29T19:32:21Z Bike: that would be less nice
2018-05-29T19:32:38Z stylewarning: White_Flame: gr0ss :)
2018-05-29T19:32:45Z White_Flame: you asked for it ;)
2018-05-29T19:33:03Z stylewarning: I'd even be happy with a super special struct type, like array of packed words or something
2018-05-29T19:33:13Z stylewarning: I want to make types like RGB triples
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2018-05-29T19:34:13Z White_Flame: yeah, an extended cons cell with >2 slots is something I've mused about on occasion
2018-05-29T19:34:19Z aeth: arrays of structs, typed lists (this is trivial to do yourself from structs, but it won't be as efficient), and typed hash tables are on my wish list, as well as type declarations behaving everywhere like in SBCL (permits gradual typing) and being able to declare specific optimizations (like TCO or fast floating point) rather than general categories
2018-05-29T19:34:25Z Bike: i think maclisp called that a hunk.
2018-05-29T19:34:39Z aeth: Add all of the stuff on the list I just gave and CL is a good competitor for something like C# or Java
2018-05-29T19:35:02Z aeth: In fact, it's probably capable of superior performance to Java at that point.
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2018-05-29T19:35:52Z aeth: I think all of this can be added without changing the spec
2018-05-29T19:35:53Z Bike: if it's a structure of uniformly typed slots you could probably fake it with some special functions or macros
2018-05-29T19:36:26Z aeth: stylewarning: If they're of the same type, I fake it with 2D arrays.
2018-05-29T19:36:28Z Bike: if all you do with them is access the elements and read/write to arrays
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2018-05-29T19:36:54Z aeth: e.g. no need to put a struct of (x, y, z) single-floats in an array when I can just have a 2D array
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2018-05-29T19:37:43Z aeth: I then cover this up with my array macros, which are fairly elaborate. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/18db1a4e34892adf4f2f4c20d52df416a3a340a9/util/array.lisp
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2018-05-29T19:38:56Z aeth: e.g. (setf (array-row-of-4 foo 32) (array-of-4 some-array)) ; essentially copies the first four elements of an array (no checking, so it's faster) into the first four elements of the array row 32
2018-05-29T19:39:20Z aeth: It does this by essentially decomposing things into multiple values.
2018-05-29T19:40:06Z aeth: Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect substitute for arrays-of-structs because all items have to be of the same type (which could be T, I guess)
2018-05-29T19:41:03Z aeth: (It's not really copying, either, but if you're doing specialized arrays (numbers or characters) you don't really notice.)
2018-05-29T19:41:39Z stylewarning: aeth: I've faked it by defining things like (define-struct-array <defstruct options>) which just creates a struct-of-arrays
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2018-05-29T19:42:18Z stylewarning: aeth: It at least makes things a bit more efficient, even if you're not reaping all of the rewards of having a single object or having a lot of memory locality.
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2018-05-29T19:43:02Z aeth: I have a define-struct-of-arrays, too
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2018-05-29T19:47:08Z beginner_supreme: The point made about how avoiding indirection by not having an vector of pointers would require typed pointers for pointer arithmetic is a nice point..
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2018-05-29T19:54:18Z copec: Have you used clasp much aeth?
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2018-05-29T19:54:39Z beginner_supreme: Thanks again guys. Till next time
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2018-05-29T19:58:37Z aeth: copec: I tried 2-3 times to get it through roswell, which I use to test in various implementations, but after failing 2-3 times (and it's a long, C++ compile) I don't want to try again via roswell
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2018-05-29T20:35:37Z copec: Is there a list of modern CL tools everybody should know about?
2018-05-29T20:35:52Z copec: because TIL ros
2018-05-29T20:36:14Z pjb: copec: http://cliki.net/
2018-05-29T20:36:17Z copec: or I should idle less
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2018-05-29T20:44:00Z antoszka: copec: https://common-lisp.net/ <- that might be another starting point, probably also worth idling less here and on #clnoobs and #lispgames
2018-05-29T20:48:06Z copec: thanks!
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2018-05-29T21:45:39Z akkad: copec: awesome lisp claims to be that
2018-05-29T21:45:52Z akkad: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2018-05-29T21:46:02Z akkad: however, a lot of things get added without having been vetted
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2018-05-29T23:43:01Z aeth: awesome-cl isn't. as akkad hinted, it's not selective enough
2018-05-29T23:43:18Z aeth: e.g. it lists GCL (literally dead) and CLISP (practically dead) under implementations
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2018-05-29T23:46:35Z aeth: If you had a way to sort https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html by category you'd get basically the same result. A list of everything, but with no way of telling if it's actually up to date, worth using, etc.
2018-05-29T23:48:29Z akkad: aeth: you must be old, this is AWESOME cl!
2018-05-29T23:48:38Z akkad: hip lisp was already taken.
2018-05-29T23:48:44Z akkad is old, and agrees 100%
2018-05-29T23:48:58Z akkad: "does it load under the big 4?"
2018-05-29T23:50:11Z akkad would recommend Common Lisp Recipes as a much better vetted list of libraries
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2018-05-29T23:54:13Z aeth: Library selection is a tricky thing. There isn't really one Common Lisp. It's a very multi-paradigm language. Sure, you can definitely write code that's not "Lispy", but even if the code is "Lispy" there's many different valid styles.
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2018-05-29T23:57:34Z aeth: Lisp is not even necessarily a dynamically typed language! SBCL did gradual typing years before it was cool.
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2018-05-30T01:34:26Z Prof_Birch: Is lisp good for rapid prototyping an application before you are sure of exactly how you want to approach the problem?
2018-05-30T01:34:41Z akkad: Prof_Birch: sure.
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2018-05-30T01:35:21Z Prof_Birch: I am hearing it's good for prototyping in a DSL kind of way, but I wasn't sure if it is actually good for prototyping in a general use of the word
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2018-05-30T01:36:12Z akkad: yeah, prototyping in a flexible language, then rewriting in a limited one.
2018-05-30T01:37:07Z Prof_Birch: Yeah that was my plan
2018-05-30T01:37:31Z Prof_Birch: I have ADHD, so it can be a bit hard for me to lay out exactly what I intend to do before hand, even if I have a general or somewhat planned idea
2018-05-30T01:38:02Z Prof_Birch: I *think* lisp could be a good choice for me to lay my ideas out, and play with them to express what I mean before I code it in something like Java
2018-05-30T01:38:25Z akkad: bottom up programming
2018-05-30T01:38:30Z Prof_Birch: Yeah
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2018-05-30T02:10:15Z pierpa: why do you think you have to recode your prototype in some other language?
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2018-05-30T02:10:56Z pierpa: unless there's a customer paying you to deliver something in some other language, I mean.
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2018-05-30T02:13:42Z Prof_Birch: I don't think I need to. I've just read its kind of the norm
2018-05-30T02:14:04Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-30T02:14:05Z Prof_Birch: I guess I could outright package program
2018-05-30T02:14:33Z Prof_Birch: Hey, I'm here to ask questions and break stereotypes I read online. So feel free to enlighten me
2018-05-30T02:14:53Z pierpa: ok. You don't have to rewrite your lisp program :)
2018-05-30T02:15:27Z Prof_Birch: I assume the answer will be yes, since I'm on the lisp channel, but is it really all that? I hear whispers online, but nobody I know uses it
2018-05-30T02:15:55Z pierpa: nobody you know uses it because it's a niche language
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2018-05-30T02:16:23Z Prof_Birch: Any particular reason?
2018-05-30T02:16:26Z akkad: this is true for CL
2018-05-30T02:16:49Z pierpa: nobody knows the reasons, unfortunately
2018-05-30T02:16:54Z Prof_Birch: I'm reading a book on CL now. I figured I'd learn Elisp later
2018-05-30T02:17:05Z pierpa: which book?
2018-05-30T02:17:08Z Prof_Birch: Is it really all that magical of a language? Seems kind of mythical
2018-05-30T02:17:17Z Prof_Birch: Practical Common Lisp
2018-05-30T02:17:23Z pierpa: you shouldn't believe *all* the hype
2018-05-30T02:17:32Z clintm: just most of it.
2018-05-30T02:17:34Z pierpa: believe at most 80% of it
2018-05-30T02:17:34Z clintm: lawl
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2018-05-30T02:17:41Z Prof_Birch: lol
2018-05-30T02:17:46Z akkad:  yeah, it's a language. if you put the features into context of when they were made. it's magial
2018-05-30T02:18:03Z clintm: If you compare it to Rust, it's still magical.
2018-05-30T02:18:04Z Prof_Birch: Well yeah. It's been around for a minute
2018-05-30T02:18:06Z akkad: otherwise, it's a consistent technology
2018-05-30T02:18:18Z akkad: Rust is just good at making me cry to make the compiler happy
2018-05-30T02:18:58Z akkad: seems like a nice target for a compiler backend, but.
2018-05-30T02:19:14Z Prof_Birch: What do you think its lisps best use case is
2018-05-30T02:19:22Z akkad: fun
2018-05-30T02:20:22Z akkad: if you mean as a family of languages. CL might be seen as a little more strictly limited wrt innovation.
2018-05-30T02:20:52Z Prof_Birch: I don't know enough about Lisp to pick a flavor, and elisp didn't seem suited for general programming
2018-05-30T02:21:09Z Prof_Birch: I figured learning the basic syntax would be the place to start, and CL was the dominant one as far as I could tell
2018-05-30T02:21:25Z akkad: don't feel like you need to limit yourself. once you get a lisp down, the rest are much easier to grok typically.
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2018-05-30T02:21:47Z Prof_Birch: People seem to be pretty die hard about the language though
2018-05-30T02:22:08Z beginner_supreme: I sort of like to look at (and validate my desire to study CL) as being a very very fast python with the freedom to extend it as I want/need.
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2018-05-30T02:22:24Z Prof_Birch: I'm just searching for a language that can help me build programs that are just on the edge of my mind, I can't seem to pin it down but I'll know what it is when I see it
2018-05-30T02:22:41Z Prof_Birch: Although I know that's kind of abstract
2018-05-30T02:22:53Z beginner_supreme: You could do that with any language you are comfortable with
2018-05-30T02:22:57Z akkad: and many lisps can do that.
2018-05-30T02:23:04Z Prof_Birch: It's a bitch in Java
2018-05-30T02:23:14Z akkad: "help me pick a religion" is easier to answer :P
2018-05-30T02:23:14Z Prof_Birch: which is my most comfortable language
2018-05-30T02:23:21Z beginner_supreme: I too dislike java.
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2018-05-30T02:23:27Z aeth: Prof_Birch: SBCL is gradually typed, if you don't mind relying on the not-entirely-portable behavior of type declarations.
2018-05-30T02:23:31Z akkad: do you get paid for what you dislike?
2018-05-30T02:23:46Z Prof_Birch: I'm not worried about portable. and I barely get paid at all. I'm a bit of a hobby programmer
2018-05-30T02:23:51Z akkad: "Minimum of 15 years of hating java required"
2018-05-30T02:23:54Z aeth: You can prototype in dynamically typed CL and then just add types later.
2018-05-30T02:24:03Z akkad: ^^
2018-05-30T02:24:18Z akkad: CL is pretty userfriendly. depending if you know emacs or not
2018-05-30T02:24:22Z Prof_Birch: That's kind of what I've heard in the "prototype in Lisp, rewerite in X" vein
2018-05-30T02:24:37Z Prof_Birch: I know emacs OK, enough to use it as my preferred OS
2018-05-30T02:24:37Z beginner_supreme: Someone in the #clnoobs room showed me how type declarations are not even necessary most of the time. Compilers like SBCL have great type inference.
2018-05-30T02:24:59Z beginner_supreme: It's really amazing when you think about it
2018-05-30T02:25:21Z aeth: beginner_supreme: There are two places where the lack of type inference will hurt your performance: numbers and sequences. This is because there's a kind of generic function (but not defgeneric generic) for numbers and sequences, like + and map
2018-05-30T02:25:36Z aeth: Otherwise the compiler can usually assume that the variable is foo or type error
2018-05-30T02:27:06Z beginner_supreme: Right, but for things like using (elt) instead of (aref) - these are inconsequential as far as I'm aware. elt would just be expanded to an aref if the type is inferred to be an array
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2018-05-30T02:27:39Z aeth: But it probably won't infer the type is an array if you use sequence operations on it and the array is passed in as a variable instead of created within the same function
2018-05-30T02:27:55Z beginner_supreme: Oh I see
2018-05-30T02:28:16Z aeth: Arrays have the added overhead of bounds checking when the dimensions are unknown, but the dimensions can be encoded within the type.
2018-05-30T02:28:40Z beginner_supreme: Thus requiring a type specifier right?
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2018-05-30T02:28:51Z aeth: Only if you need performance.
2018-05-30T02:29:06Z beginner_supreme: I'll keep it in mind the day I need the performance. ;]
2018-05-30T02:31:24Z Prof_Birch: someone is telling me to look into haskell instead
2018-05-30T02:32:03Z aeth: It depends on what you want.
2018-05-30T02:32:08Z beginner_supreme: I had that internal debate before too, but decided to stick to CL. It's just easier to work with in my opinion
2018-05-30T02:32:21Z Prof_Birch: I want to take whats on my brain, and put it on my computer
2018-05-30T02:32:22Z beginner_supreme: But everyone has their own style/preferences
2018-05-30T02:32:36Z beginner_supreme: No one knows what's in your brain though
2018-05-30T02:32:41Z beginner_supreme: Only you do
2018-05-30T02:32:45Z Prof_Birch: I'm use to the vim/emacs, perl/python, kde/gnome, wars
2018-05-30T02:32:52Z Prof_Birch: not haskell/lisp
2018-05-30T02:32:56Z aeth: The problem with Haskell is that you have to be inventive to keep purity. CL doesn't care about mutability so you can take your mutable algorithms and data structures with you into CL.
2018-05-30T02:33:09Z Prof_Birch: I know, the problem is I don't always know what I am thinking clearly (Hence ADHD)
2018-05-30T02:33:22Z Prof_Birch: So I need a language equal parts art and function
2018-05-30T02:33:34Z beginner_supreme: Haskell requires placing all your mutability and imperative style into constructs called Monads, which are a bit difficult for most to grok
2018-05-30T02:33:41Z beginner_supreme: But obviosly not impossible
2018-05-30T02:33:52Z Prof_Birch: that I can put down what I am thinking, and tinker. Java and python didn't do that so well. It always ended up with me rewriting my program and making no progress
2018-05-30T02:34:26Z Prof_Birch: I like the idea of perl, but I would also like to go back and read what I wrote at some point
2018-05-30T02:34:34Z Prof_Birch: so I'm keeping that away for now
2018-05-30T02:35:37Z beginner_supreme: In CL, when you are writing something in a spaghetti or repetitive way, you might realize "Oh this... I can write a macro for this... to keep the code size down... and focused on what I want to write."
2018-05-30T02:35:46Z pierpa: you should learn a bit of CL and a bit of haskell, then you decide
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2018-05-30T02:35:58Z aeth: Perl is for text processing, it doesn't really compete with CL directly.
2018-05-30T02:36:08Z Prof_Birch: I know. I was comparing perl to python
2018-05-30T02:36:13Z beginner_supreme: The unit testing chapter in Practical Common Lisp is an excellent example
2018-05-30T02:36:19Z Prof_Birch: I am working on a Natural language context
2018-05-30T02:37:02Z beginner_supreme: Prolog is also quite good in that context then
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2018-05-30T02:37:46Z beginner_supreme: Anyways, I need to go. Thanks for the conversation! Till next time.
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2018-05-30T04:13:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-30T04:18:50Z jeosol: Morning beach.
2018-05-30T04:18:53Z jeosol: beach in the house
2018-05-30T04:19:23Z jeosol: I take it you are in Europe (further east?). We on the side are packing it up
2018-05-30T04:19:58Z beach: Right.
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2018-05-30T04:28:43Z jeosol: Nice.
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2018-05-30T04:30:20Z beach: jeosol: I strongly encourage you to come to ELS next year.
2018-05-30T04:30:31Z beach: Genoa, April 1 and 2.
2018-05-30T04:30:44Z beach: Some people have already booked hotel room it seems.
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2018-05-30T04:33:18Z beach: jeosol: It is not reserved for Europeans.  We have many participants from all over the world.  US in particular, but also Japan and some other places.
2018-05-30T04:33:56Z jeosol: I definitely would.
2018-05-30T04:34:06Z jeosol: You mean people have book rooms for that.
2018-05-30T04:34:48Z jeosol: I have finished my challenge code so I am fully in invested in CL for now. I am planning to start presenting my work soon.
2018-05-30T04:34:50Z beach: Usually, you can wait until much later, but this time ELS is held jointly with the <programming> conference, so there will be many people who need rooms.
2018-05-30T04:36:04Z jeosol: I would never have been able to do it without CL. For example, the macro facility was exception and of CLOS which my codes uses a lot.
2018-05-30T04:36:05Z beach: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2019/index.html
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2018-05-30T04:36:40Z beach: Oh, it's held in a hotel.  I should book a room in that hotel.
2018-05-30T04:36:47Z jeosol: also look forward to get jobs where I can hack CL. I almost got one with some US defense guys, but security clearance issues.
2018-05-30T04:37:03Z jeosol: thanks for the link. I will look it up and start making plans. These things go by quickly.
2018-05-30T04:37:06Z beach: I suggest you go work for Ravenpack in Marbella.
2018-05-30T04:37:15Z beach: They are hiring, and Marbella is a great place anyway.
2018-05-30T04:37:37Z jeosol: But then, I will need EU work visa right? I will be in Barcelona for the Challenge conference, so I may try to see if I can visit them.
2018-05-30T04:37:43Z beach: Plus, it's in the EU, so life is much better than in the US.
2018-05-30T04:38:02Z beach: There is no problem getting a work visa for the EU.
2018-05-30T04:38:20Z beach: Yes, go visit them.  That's a good idea.
2018-05-30T04:39:41Z jeosol: Really, no problem for work visas for foreigners?
2018-05-30T04:40:11Z beach: Not if you have a job offer.  In fact, most companies will do the paper work for you.
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2018-05-30T04:40:58Z jeosol: That's actually very nice
2018-05-30T04:42:03Z rme: I understand that Spain can be rather troublesome, but why not talk to RavenPack anyway?
2018-05-30T04:42:09Z beach: jeosol: I know of at least 5 US-of-Asians who, once installed in the EU never looked back.
2018-05-30T04:42:28Z beach: rme: Troublesome how?
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2018-05-30T04:42:51Z rme: In the visa and immigration area, I mean.
2018-05-30T04:42:54Z beach: jeosol: Actually, many more than that, now that I think about it.
2018-05-30T04:43:59Z beach: rme: Oh?  That would be very surprising.  Sure, if you are an unskilled person from Africa, I can imagine a few obstacles, but if you have an offer of a skilled job, I don't see the problem.  But maybe you know better than I do.
2018-05-30T04:44:03Z jeosol: This is why I was suprised. Over here it's a nightmare.
2018-05-30T04:44:34Z beach: jeosol: Well, I suggest you follow rme's advice and go talk to them.
2018-05-30T04:46:01Z jeosol: If I get there for the conference, I will definitely visit them.
2018-05-30T04:46:12Z jeosol: thanks beach, rme
2018-05-30T04:46:19Z beach: Anytime.
2018-05-30T04:47:15Z beach: rme: Speaking of which, did you ever make a final decision?
2018-05-30T04:47:18Z rme: Their recruiter is @MMonteroZ on Twitter if you want an initial point of contact.
2018-05-30T04:47:30Z jeosol: I normally joke that "blessed is S/he who hacks lisp for a living ...". There are a few companies there have adverstise and look for CL as part of their stack, but then they want other languages too JS, Java,...
2018-05-30T04:47:55Z jeosol: that's good actually. I will start developing some contact. Conference is in September
2018-05-30T04:48:18Z aeth: jeosol: If you have European ancestors you might actually be able to get European citizenship. Depends on the country. Italy is the easiest.
2018-05-30T04:48:54Z jeosol: How far back are we talking, time of Adam and Eve, lol
2018-05-30T04:48:56Z rme: beach: I can't quite make a move to Bordeaux (or anywhere in France) work out just on my own.  I'm talking to some potential employers, though.
2018-05-30T04:49:59Z beach: rme: What about the job offer that would make you stay?  Did it happen?
2018-05-30T04:50:51Z beach: jeosol: The great advantage of going to ELS is that you will be able to put a face on many of the #lisp participants.
2018-05-30T04:51:13Z aeth: Personally, I think I could get Italian (1/4) or Hungarian (1/16??) citizenship if I tried. For the latter I would have to learn Hungarian, though.
2018-05-30T04:51:23Z beach: jeosol: There are usually nearly 100 people coming to ELS every year.
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2018-05-30T04:52:06Z rme: beach: No, she didn't pursue the full-time faculty position after all.
2018-05-30T04:52:23Z beach: rme: Great! (so to speak)
2018-05-30T04:52:34Z rme: :-)
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2018-05-30T04:53:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is anyone else having issues with slime on emacs 26?
2018-05-30T04:55:26Z jeosol: beach: yes, good point. Nothing like meeting people and discussing in person and finding common grounds and collaborative projects.
2018-05-30T04:55:42Z beach: jeosol: Exactly!
2018-05-30T04:56:24Z jeosol: I did plan to come this here, write my paper on building a very large project/application with CL.
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2018-05-30T04:57:17Z jeosol: when I started, my code was barely running stable, issues, but after questions here and comp.lang.lisp, it is running smoothly, and runs for days and weeks without issues now.
2018-05-30T04:58:31Z jeosol: beach: on the conference bit, I think the collaboration is something that would be useful. For example, I have talked about picking up CLML for machine learning/AI but waiting to sort out the licence issues and get a go-ahead
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2018-05-30T04:59:17Z aeth: jeosol: what kind of large application?
2018-05-30T04:59:23Z aeth: And how many LoC?
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2018-05-30T04:59:48Z beach: jeosol: Sure, you can give a few lightning talks and see if someone is interested.
2018-05-30T05:00:07Z jeosol: Last time I check, around january, 210k
2018-05-30T05:00:22Z aeth: wow
2018-05-30T05:01:05Z aeth: I cannot easily break 10k. Every time it looks like I might get close, a new macro pops up.
2018-05-30T05:01:59Z jeosol: There are a few reasons for the productivity, lisp being one of them. I type fast, and because I can reach any file and function from within emacs, all those things help. Also, my code is essentially a document because I use long
2018-05-30T05:02:49Z jeosol: variable names which my be hard for many. The variable names and function names convey meanings. So with the code reading like a document, it was much easier to write along.
2018-05-30T05:04:01Z jeosol: I won't recommend writing it the way I did, I was also writing to code as a hobby (April 2016), then a challenge came up Feb 2017, so I decided to make the code be able to solve that challenge. Deadling was a month ago.
2018-05-30T05:05:01Z jeosol: But I must say, I have enjoyed working on the project and can't imagine if I can get to code CL and get paid for it. hmmm
2018-05-30T05:05:45Z jeosol: There are some defence projects here with the companies using CL
2018-05-30T05:06:46Z jeosol: but one thing I would say is that, my code quality gets better with time. When I learnt the basic things I needed, I just started writing and replacing code as I go forward and using better idioms, or techniques to improve efficiency. But my focus was
2018-05-30T05:06:53Z jeosol: on the application side mostly.
2018-05-30T05:07:05Z aeth: What is the application?
2018-05-30T05:07:27Z jeosol: aeth: very good question.
2018-05-30T05:09:18Z jeosol: I would say it is a platform because the code base contains optimization engine, statistics, proxies. So application area is for optimization problems where scare resource have to be allocated to maximize some objective function.
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2018-05-30T05:15:05Z jeosol: A presentation may be able to help explain things better. Hence beach suggestion to come to ELS
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2018-05-30T05:15:52Z jeosol: beach: jmercoursis here did say he is interested in the machine learning work.
2018-05-30T05:16:43Z jeosol: I was hoping to reproduce some examples using CLML library and make changes to the code if necessary. I am trying to resolve with the library owners to avoid any issues.
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2018-05-30T05:19:32Z shachaf: Is there something in Lisp which is like progn, but where each statement can be a sort of macro that acts on the rest of the block?
2018-05-30T05:20:20Z aeth: what are you trying to do?
2018-05-30T05:20:21Z makomo: morning
2018-05-30T05:20:28Z makomo: shachaf: something to avoid nesting?
2018-05-30T05:21:03Z shachaf: I'm thinking about a language feature for a different language. But I thought maybe Lisp people would've thought about something like this.
2018-05-30T05:21:22Z makomo: what does it mean "but where each statement ... acts on the rest of the block" though
2018-05-30T05:21:27Z shachaf: Yes, roughly. This is kind of like continuation-passing style, I suppose.
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2018-05-30T05:22:05Z makomo: maybe something along the lines of this, but i don't know if that's what you're looking for: https://fare.livejournal.com/189741.html
2018-05-30T05:22:22Z shachaf: I guess it would mean that (progn (a) (b) (c)) can turn into something like (a '(progn (b) (c))) if a is a particular type of macro.
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2018-05-30T05:23:55Z shachaf: OK, that looks similar. Though I'm thinking that in the common case the things in the progn block are just evaluated as regular expressions.
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2018-05-30T05:25:15Z makomo: i'm not sure if it's possible to do what you want, i.e. for A to act on the whole progn
2018-05-30T05:25:42Z makomo: you could for example invent your own PROGN-like thing that will be a macro that will codewalk the body and looks for A's :D
2018-05-30T05:25:46Z shachaf: Probably not for progn but for something else made for this purpose.
2018-05-30T05:26:12Z shachaf: Right, that's what I was thinking. I was wondering whether something like that existed.
2018-05-30T05:26:51Z shachaf: It's also similar to https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm (or Haskell's do notation)
2018-05-30T05:28:02Z shachaf: And I suppose also to continuation-passing style, or first-class continuations in languages that have them.
2018-05-30T05:29:38Z makomo: shachaf: you might want to look at the implementation of contiuations in On Lisp. i don't know how complete it is, but it could come in handy as an example
2018-05-30T05:29:48Z makomo: continuations*
2018-05-30T05:30:18Z makomo: shachaf: these monad macros are interesting, cool
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2018-05-30T05:32:10Z shachaf: But continuations are opaque functions and I'm curious about applications that do more syntactical macro-style things.
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2018-05-30T05:39:30Z aeth: You could try looking at various utility libraries to see if any do something similar to what you're talking about
2018-05-30T05:39:58Z shachaf: (And also I'm thinking about this in the context of some sort of low-level language that doesn't have closures.)
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2018-05-30T05:53:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: shachaf: you might look at f-exprs in the kernel language, among other places
2018-05-30T05:55:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if they are directly relevant :)
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2018-05-30T06:01:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, has anyone used SLIME with emacs 26?
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2018-05-30T06:22:56Z jlarocco: no, but that reminds me that I was going to upgrade emacs today
2018-05-30T06:23:13Z shka_: linedit finally is not slow
2018-05-30T06:23:18Z shka_: which is nice
2018-05-30T06:23:20Z shka_: ;-)
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2018-05-30T06:35:52Z MichaelRaskin: shachaf: I think this is sometimes implemented under names like nest or something like that
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2018-05-30T06:36:31Z MichaelRaskin: shka: does it now work reasonably with Unicode, though?
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2018-05-30T08:05:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I discovered the issue I was having with slime
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2018-05-30T08:06:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: You need to use the git version of slime, because emacs changed the signatures of some functions
2018-05-30T08:07:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: And there is no released version of slime with the relevant changes
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2018-05-30T08:33:21Z xificurC: I'm reading LOL and gained a yet again little bit better understanding of lexical and dynamic bindings and closures. However I'm failing to understand one example the author gives: he says this doesn't create a new lexical closure: (let ((temp-special 'whatever)) (lambda () temp-special)). Note that temp-special was defvar'd before, i.e. made speci
2018-05-30T08:33:21Z xificurC: al
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2018-05-30T08:34:19Z xificurC: so if it doesn't create a lexical closure I would expect this to clobber the variable: (defvar *x* 1) (loop for i from 1 to 10000 do (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*x* 10)) (incf *x*)))))
2018-05-30T08:34:32Z jmercouris: I'm having a weird error says "COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while coming "cffi-toolchain" https://gist.github.com/284f9800691c84683301e12d68256b06
2018-05-30T08:34:34Z xificurC: yet *x* remains 1
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2018-05-30T08:35:24Z jmercouris: xificurC: within the let bending temp-special shadows the defvar
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2018-05-30T08:35:53Z xificurC: jmercouris: if it's not a lexical binding where does it shadow it though?
2018-05-30T08:36:19Z jmercouris: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2018-05-30T08:36:22Z xificurC: I'm imagining *x* to be on the heap and all threads changing the value temporarily
2018-05-30T08:36:39Z jmercouris: "each binding is lexical unless there is a special declaration to the contrary"
2018-05-30T08:36:58Z jmercouris: do not try to imagine what is happening in machine code, that will make you wrong a lot
2018-05-30T08:37:24Z xificurC: jmercouris: yes I read that and the sentence is ambiguous (to me at least). A special declaration in the let's scope or in toplevel?
2018-05-30T08:38:07Z xificurC: jmercouris: actually I do want to understand what's happening in machine code
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2018-05-30T08:39:09Z jmercouris: you should suspend your belief about what is happening in the machine code
2018-05-30T08:39:14Z jmercouris: the implementation could be working in a completely random way
2018-05-30T08:39:27Z jmercouris: and if you try to guess what it is doing, you are only going to confuse yourself and cause problems when you try to optimize "cleverly"
2018-05-30T08:40:30Z xificurC: jmercouris: ok forget the machine code then. In the example above, is the leted *x* dynamic or lexical?
2018-05-30T08:41:12Z jmercouris: you mean the second example you posted?
2018-05-30T08:41:28Z xificurC: jmercouris: yes the one with *x* and threads
2018-05-30T08:42:09Z jmercouris: that I am not sure about, sb-thread is not part of the standard
2018-05-30T08:42:16Z jmercouris: so I don't know how to does things with threads
2018-05-30T08:42:27Z jmercouris: where the memory goes and so on and so forth with state
2018-05-30T08:42:30Z jmercouris: so I am afraid I can't help you
2018-05-30T08:42:42Z xificurC: jmercouris: ok, (defvar *x* 1) (let ((*x* 10)) (incf *x*))
2018-05-30T08:42:46Z White_Flame: the standard says that dynamic bindings are scoped to a function and everything it calls, which is necessarily thread-local on all implementations I've seen
2018-05-30T08:42:59Z beach: jmercouris: LET does not shadow a special variable.  It binds it.
2018-05-30T08:43:04Z White_Flame: erm, scoped to a lexical scope and everything it calls
2018-05-30T08:43:18Z jmercouris: beach: whoops :D
2018-05-30T08:43:32Z xificurC: LOL says a let that captures a special variable doesn't create a lexical closure
2018-05-30T08:43:46Z beach: xificurC: It doesn't clobber the global value of the variable, because you bind it before incrementing it.
2018-05-30T08:43:49Z White_Flame: LET can do either
2018-05-30T08:44:00Z xificurC: doesn't say what does it create though, or I didn't get it from what is written
2018-05-30T08:44:15Z White_Flame: (defvar *a* 1)  (let ((*a* 'dynamic-binding) (b 'lexical-binding)) ...)
2018-05-30T08:44:28Z xificurC: beach: yes the non-clobbering in the non-thread example I get
2018-05-30T08:44:40Z xificurC: but the leted *x* is dynamic or lexically scoped
2018-05-30T08:44:53Z White_Flame: it's a compile-time decision on whether or not the variable is declared special, that determines what LET does
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2018-05-30T08:45:09Z beach: xificurC: It is still a special variable, so it is dynamically bound.
2018-05-30T08:45:20Z White_Flame: if it's not declared special, then it's a plain local lexical binding
2018-05-30T08:45:27Z xificurC: White_Flame: so each function has it's own dynamic environment
2018-05-30T08:45:32Z beach: xificurC: The tradition is also that each thread gets its own binding, and that they share the global value.
2018-05-30T08:45:40Z beach: xificurC: No.
2018-05-30T08:45:48Z beach: The dynamic environment is per thread.
2018-05-30T08:45:52Z White_Flame: xificurC: dynamic bindings via LET are thread-local
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2018-05-30T08:46:19Z White_Flame: they can also be done via (defun foo (*x*) ...) which also establishes a dynamic binding for *x* using what's passed in
2018-05-30T08:46:42Z White_Flame: or LAMBDA, or probably a few other ways, too
2018-05-30T08:46:46Z beach: xificurC: (defparameter *x* 0) (defun ff () (print *x*)) (defun gg () (let ((*x* 1)) (ff)))
2018-05-30T08:47:20Z beach: xificurC: ff will print 1, proving that the binding of *x* is not specific to gg.
2018-05-30T08:49:03Z White_Flame: a common machine code implementation is that when looking up the value of a special variable, first it checks the threadlocal table.  If there's no binding there, it checks the global symbol-value of the symbol
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2018-05-30T08:50:21Z White_Flame: and again, that choice is compile-time, depending on whether or not the referred variable is/was declared special or not
2018-05-30T08:51:25Z xificurC: ok, so in (defparameter *x* 0) (let ((*x* 100)) CODE-HERE) everyone using *x* at runtime will see the leted value, which is what dynamic binding is all about. The threading version works because specials can also be in a thread-local storage
2018-05-30T08:51:59Z beach: xificurC: No, not everyone.  Only the functions that are called by CODE-HERE.
2018-05-30T08:52:11Z beach: xificurC: Not functions running in a different thread.
2018-05-30T08:52:13Z xificurC: beach: that's what I meant to write
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2018-05-30T08:52:48Z xificurC: I still don't understand the sentence "the standard says that dynamic bindings are scoped to a function and everything it calls" though
2018-05-30T08:53:14Z White_Flame: (progn (let ((*x* 100)) ...*x*  is seen as 100 here and in called functions...) ...*x* is back to normal)
2018-05-30T08:53:32Z White_Flame: I corrected myself
2018-05-30T08:53:53Z White_Flame: they're scoped to the lexical scope of the binding, and anything it calls
2018-05-30T08:55:41Z White_Flame: (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (format t ...)) will cause FORMAT to see a new value of *print-circle*, for instance, but any other thread won't, nor will anything in the current thread outside the LET
2018-05-30T08:56:08Z White_Flame: specifically, outside the dynamic extend of LET, ie when it's active on the call stack and hasn't exited yet
2018-05-30T08:56:15Z xificurC: White_Flame: so the standard requires specials to be thread safe this way
2018-05-30T08:56:24Z White_Flame: it doesn't mention threads
2018-05-30T08:56:36Z White_Flame: but the implication pretty much requires thread locality
2018-05-30T08:57:34Z xificurC: White_Flame: ah so I can imagine "if it's not on your call stack you can't see it"?
2018-05-30T08:57:47Z White_Flame: a binding is basically entered & exited
2018-05-30T08:57:56Z beach: xificurC: Yes, you can say that.
2018-05-30T08:58:18Z White_Flame: if a special binding has entered, then everything in the thread will see that new binding (unless another inner binding overrode it)
2018-05-30T08:58:25Z White_Flame: once it exits, it's gone
2018-05-30T08:58:28Z xificurC: that makes me click
2018-05-30T08:59:59Z xificurC: thanks beach and White_Flame
2018-05-30T09:00:05Z beach: Anytime.
2018-05-30T09:00:09Z White_Flame: np
2018-05-30T09:00:30Z xificurC: so I can expect e.g. ABCL to supply the same guarantees on the JVM
2018-05-30T09:00:46Z White_Flame: I'm trying to find the CLHS page that describes dynamic bindings
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2018-05-30T09:01:08Z beach: xificurC: I know of no Common Lisp implementation that does it differently with respect to threads.  Without threads, it is standardized behavior.
2018-05-30T09:02:06Z shka: honestly, what else reasonable man can do?
2018-05-30T09:02:09Z xificurC: beach: what other implications are there from this requirement? You're saying threads aren't mentioned but I don't see what else benefits from this behavior
2018-05-30T09:02:47Z beach: xificurC: As White_Flame pointed out, you can alter the behavior of things like FORMAT without passing an argument to them.
2018-05-30T09:03:19Z shka: standard output has dynamic binding
2018-05-30T09:03:21Z xificurC: beach: yes but if the binding wasn't thread-local it would still apply the same way
2018-05-30T09:03:24Z shka: same as trace binding
2018-05-30T09:03:45Z beach: xificurC: yes, but if the binding were a lexical binding, it would not behave that way.
2018-05-30T09:03:46Z shka: xificurC: thing is, new thread is a new stack
2018-05-30T09:03:59Z shka: and dynamic binding is connected to stack
2018-05-30T09:03:59Z White_Flame: " The effect of binding a dynamic variable is to create a new binding to which all references to that dynamic variable in any program refer for the duration of the evaluation of the form that creates the dynamic binding. "
2018-05-30T09:04:25Z shka: White_Flame: lol, very helpful
2018-05-30T09:04:46Z White_Flame: that sentence might imply trampling across threads, though
2018-05-30T09:04:47Z White_Flame: :)
2018-05-30T09:04:51Z xificurC: beach: yes that's the point of dynamic binding, I get that. I'm asking what other benefits are there from the fact that the binding is connected to the stack
2018-05-30T09:05:39Z shka: xificurC: it is very convinient when you want, for instance, redirect trace to file
2018-05-30T09:05:46Z xificurC: if it was altered in a global table that is shared across threads you would still have the same behavior with the FORMAT example
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2018-05-30T09:06:05Z White_Flame: xificurC: and in non-threaded implementations, that's exactly what happens
2018-05-30T09:06:07Z shka: so let's assume that you have this one function that you find interesting
2018-05-30T09:06:43Z shka: you can wrap call to it with let to establish new binding for trace output
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2018-05-30T09:07:11Z xificurC: White_Flame: so the standard doesn't mention threads but the requirements it imposes necessitate thread locality. And I don't see what other benefits are there from those requirements, i.e. why aren't threads mentioned
2018-05-30T09:07:12Z shka: then you can call your top level function, but part of trace will land in your file
2018-05-30T09:07:23Z shka: and you don't have to pass extra arguments or anything
2018-05-30T09:07:25Z White_Flame: what do you mean by "benefits"?
2018-05-30T09:07:49Z White_Flame: and threads aren't mentioned because they basically weren't invented at the time that the tech they were consolidating was created.
2018-05-30T09:07:50Z shka: xificurC: because there are no threads in CL standard
2018-05-30T09:07:57Z beach: xificurC: You are right.  There are no other benefits to special variables than the fact that they allow dynamic bindings and that this is a unique property of Common Lisp.
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2018-05-30T09:08:17Z xificurC: White_Flame: thread locality
2018-05-30T09:08:37Z beach: xificurC: A few minutes ago, you did not understand the mechanism of dynamic binding, so it is natural that we try to check that you now do.
2018-05-30T09:09:19Z White_Flame: the main benefit of special variables is side-band context, either global or scoped
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2018-05-30T09:09:25Z xificurC: beach: I imagined it to work *not* thread safe, e.g. with a shared global table. But my test in sbcl proved me wrong
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2018-05-30T09:10:00Z xificurC: and the book didn't explain where is the leted binding kept
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2018-05-30T09:10:14Z xificurC: if the answer is "in a thread local table" then I understand
2018-05-30T09:10:15Z White_Flame: well, there are multiple implementation strategies
2018-05-30T09:10:18Z beach: xificurC: You also imagined something else, i.e. that (let ((*x* 1)) (incf x)) would alter the global value of *x*, which is not the case.
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2018-05-30T09:10:39Z beach: er, (incf *x*)
2018-05-30T09:10:51Z xificurC: beach: no, I knew that doesn't clobber
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2018-05-30T09:11:00Z beach: Now you do, but before you said you didn't.
2018-05-30T09:11:26Z beach: So we are just making sure that you understand the benefits of special variables, even when there are no threads involved.
2018-05-30T09:11:47Z xificurC: I just imagined it to be something like (setf tmp *x*) (setf *x* 1) (incf *x*) (setf *x* tmp)
2018-05-30T09:11:49Z beach: But yes, those benefits are the only ones if there are no threads involved.
2018-05-30T09:12:01Z xificurC: pardon the stupid pseudo code :)
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2018-05-30T09:12:30Z White_Flame: or (let ((old-x *x*)) (setf *x* 1) (incf *x*) (setf *x* old-x)) to be a little more idiomatic
2018-05-30T09:12:42Z xificurC: I think I still didn't make the last question clear
2018-05-30T09:12:44Z shka: xificurC: essentially, each new binding to special variable shadows old binding for everything that comes after it on stack
2018-05-30T09:12:45Z White_Flame: it's good style to only have variables exist for the scope where they're used
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2018-05-30T09:12:58Z beach: xificurC: Yes, and that won't work if there is an error and a non-local transfer between the save and restore.
2018-05-30T09:13:21Z beach: xificurC: Dynamic bindings are guaranteed to be undone in case of a non-local transfer of control out of the dynamic scope.
2018-05-30T09:14:34Z xificurC: I already understood and used the benefits of specials. I didn't understand why a let over it is thread safe.
2018-05-30T09:14:56Z xificurC: You guys said the standard requires it to behave in a way which is basically always implemented in a thread safe manner.
2018-05-30T09:14:57Z beach: Fine.
2018-05-30T09:15:19Z White_Flame: because "for the duration of the evaluation of the form that creates the dynamic binding" is interpreted that way
2018-05-30T09:15:21Z xificurC: I was asking if there are other benefits from those requirements
2018-05-30T09:15:33Z beach: No, none.
2018-05-30T09:15:38Z xificurC: just from those that are actually making it thread safe
2018-05-30T09:15:44Z beach: None whatsoever.
2018-05-30T09:15:47Z xificurC: :(
2018-05-30T09:15:50Z xificurC: was hoping for more :)
2018-05-30T09:15:55Z White_Flame: the benefit is side-band contextual data, either global or scoped
2018-05-30T09:15:56Z shka: xificurC: it is just the only reasonable way to do it
2018-05-30T09:15:57Z beach: I can tell, yes.
2018-05-30T09:16:19Z White_Flame: and scopes happen to be thread-local, by interpretation of that "during" description
2018-05-30T09:16:36Z beach: White_Flame: xificurC is looking for MORE benefits.
2018-05-30T09:16:41Z beach: There are none. Zip, nada.
2018-05-30T09:16:50Z White_Flame: right, and that wording puzzles me
2018-05-30T09:16:55Z White_Flame: it's a spec, it defines a particular tool
2018-05-30T09:16:58Z xificurC: CL has many benefits, give me MORE
2018-05-30T09:17:03Z beach: As usual, the Common Lisp HyperSpec falls short of people's expectations.
2018-05-30T09:17:12Z White_Flame: it has tools
2018-05-30T09:17:21Z White_Flame: tricks & techniques turn tools into benefits
2018-05-30T09:17:27Z White_Flame: that's what hacking is
2018-05-30T09:17:35Z White_Flame: and to a lesser extent, that's what engineering is
2018-05-30T09:18:00Z xificurC: ah, "for the duration" means it has to be true when exiting as well
2018-05-30T09:18:03Z shka: xificurC: simple concepts have often profound consequences
2018-05-30T09:18:09Z xificurC: more clicks
2018-05-30T09:18:20Z beach: xificurC: I thought you understood that already.
2018-05-30T09:18:39Z xificurC: beach: I did, just not the spec's wording
2018-05-30T09:19:17Z xificurC: I was thinking "if I were to implement CL and read that line would the thread-safetiness be clear to me from that sentence?"
2018-05-30T09:19:34Z White_Flame: I think it could be done either way and technically comply
2018-05-30T09:19:37Z White_Flame: but thread-local is more useful
2018-05-30T09:19:57Z beach: xificurC: It's the only sane way of doing it.  Otherwise, a thread could not count on the value of its own variables.
2018-05-30T09:20:09Z White_Flame: because the actual "time during which ... a binding ... is defined" is technically global, but unpredictable outside a thread
2018-05-30T09:20:32Z White_Flame: (that's from the definition of "extent")
2018-05-30T09:20:32Z beach: xificurC: (let ((*x* 1)) <no guarantee what *x* is here>
2018-05-30T09:20:35Z xificurC: do you guys like LOL? Do you agree with it?
2018-05-30T09:20:41Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-05-30T09:20:48Z White_Flame: Land of Lisp, or Let Over Lambda?
2018-05-30T09:20:54Z xificurC: let over lambda
2018-05-30T09:20:56Z beach: xificurC: (let ((*x* 1)) <no guarantee what *x* is here>) I mean.
2018-05-30T09:21:06Z beach: xificurC: That would be surprising, now wouldn't it?
2018-05-30T09:21:17Z White_Flame: I think LOL is an interesting exercise, but I don't like the data-hiding of the way it uses closures
2018-05-30T09:21:35Z White_Flame: it's certainly full of concepts you should learn & comprehend well
2018-05-30T09:22:02Z xificurC: beach: yes but you really have to think of threads to get a surprising effect from it when keeping it in a global table
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2018-05-30T09:22:54Z White_Flame: a dynamic binding in a single threaded environment has well-defined boundaries.  a global-trampling dynamic binding in a multithreaded environment loses those well-defined boundaries, while thread-local retains them
2018-05-30T09:23:05Z xificurC: White_Flame: isn't the way he uses closures the most important thing to him? :)
2018-05-30T09:23:18Z White_Flame: yes, but it also means you can't change them at runtime easily, which is very non-lispy
2018-05-30T09:24:20Z White_Flame: ie, if you create an object whose implementations are lambdas floating in hidden closure variables, then redefine the functions in the source code, the existing objects will nto be updated.  If they were plain DEFUNs or DEFMETHODs, then the source code could change the behavior dynamically
2018-05-30T09:24:24Z xificurC: depends on the hooks you leave, right
2018-05-30T09:24:30Z beach: xificurC: In many respects, standard objects are strictly more general that closures, at least for SICP-style data hiding.
2018-05-30T09:25:23Z jmercouris: beach: SICP?
2018-05-30T09:25:36Z beach: xificurC: Since CLOS is so powerful, it is usually better to use standard objects than closures for data hiding.
2018-05-30T09:25:49Z beach: jmercouris: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs.
2018-05-30T09:25:53Z beach: A book.
2018-05-30T09:25:59Z White_Flame: it's usually better not to do data hiding, too :-P
2018-05-30T09:26:04Z jmercouris: I googled it, but I still don't understand what you mean
2018-05-30T09:26:16Z jmercouris: White_Flame: isn't data hiding the whole premise of OOP?
2018-05-30T09:26:22Z White_Flame: yes, and it's a bad one ;)
2018-05-30T09:26:25Z beach: jmercouris: They use closures to emulate object-oriented programming.
2018-05-30T09:26:25Z shka: nooooooooo
2018-05-30T09:26:40Z shka: jmercouris: OOP is about messaging
2018-05-30T09:26:41Z jmercouris: beach: that sounds like a terrible idea, but I haven't done it, so I can't be sure
2018-05-30T09:26:52Z jmercouris: shka: messaging for the purpose of...? encapsulation!
2018-05-30T09:26:54Z beach: shka: It is not.  Only in single-dispatch languages.
2018-05-30T09:26:55Z White_Flame: bad for debugging & development, in particular.  You should still use well-defined interfaces and not just directly trample data, but explicitly barring ALL access is counterproductive in an interactive environment
2018-05-30T09:27:17Z beach: White_Flame: I totally agree.
2018-05-30T09:28:24Z White_Flame: having to pollute all your objects with logging functions, for instance, is a massive ugly nuisance, as opposed to letting your logger peek in as deeply as it needs to
2018-05-30T09:28:59Z jmercouris: even in OOP languages that have private members, they usually allow introspection and reflection
2018-05-30T09:29:05Z jmercouris: so it not generally a problem what you are saying
2018-05-30T09:29:06Z shka: beach: so data hiding?
2018-05-30T09:29:06Z xificurC: but the world is a hostile place and the devs will try to kill your objects, you have to encapsulate!!! /s
2018-05-30T09:29:29Z White_Flame: if you're using C++, then language itself is trying to kill your objects!
2018-05-30T09:29:43Z shka: White_Flame: actually, not
2018-05-30T09:29:59Z White_Flame ROPs shka into saying what I want
2018-05-30T09:30:05Z shka: if you are using C++, language is trying to kill YOU
2018-05-30T09:30:15Z shka: by triggering heart attack
2018-05-30T09:30:19Z jmercouris: shka: what are you talking about?
2018-05-30T09:30:20Z makomo: it only blows your foot off :^)
2018-05-30T09:30:24Z White_Flame: death by template error report
2018-05-30T09:30:56Z shka: templates: not worth it(tm)
2018-05-30T09:32:46Z xificurC: I always imagine the CL mascot from land of lisp just watching the programmers, year after year, implementing half-assed versions of what already exists for 50 years, scratching its head thinking just wtf is going on in other people's minds
2018-05-30T09:33:37Z White_Flame: is the mascot now named Greenspun? ;)
2018-05-30T09:33:49Z jmercouris: xificurC: please, let us not take a stroll down eltisim lane
2018-05-30T09:34:00Z makomo: White_Flame: i see your point about LoL. how would you for example "solve" the following problem: i had an object that you could (un)register callbacks with, and it would call these functions when a particular thing happened. the callbacks were taken as function objects.
2018-05-30T09:34:24Z xificurC: jmercouris: can the mascot at least be elitist?
2018-05-30T09:34:27Z White_Flame: makomo: that's explicitly managed state, which is fine to store somewhere
2018-05-30T09:34:45Z jmercouris: xificurC: I think it already is, it is this alien eye guy, at least unofficially
2018-05-30T09:34:46Z makomo: White_Flame: now, when you pass in a function into this registration, such as #'SOMETHING, and later on redefine SOMETHING, you're still left with the old version of SOMETHING attached to your object
2018-05-30T09:35:01Z shka: lisp alien should have name, btw
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2018-05-30T09:35:05Z White_Flame: makomo: but I woudl probably define a struct or defvar to hold it (depending on scope) instead of just closuring it
2018-05-30T09:35:52Z makomo: White_Flame: since i wanted the benefit of interactivity/redefinition, i went with storing a symbol and then looking up it's symbol-function :D
2018-05-30T09:35:54Z White_Flame: makomo: right, because that's a _configured data object_, not just default class-style code
2018-05-30T09:35:59Z makomo: but i don't think that's pretty at all
2018-05-30T09:36:18Z White_Flame: and yeah, symbols are the right way to do it if you want global redefinition of all instances to be possible
2018-05-30T09:36:23Z makomo: White_Flame: hm right, so it's not really a problem then, because you explictily did it that way
2018-05-30T09:36:41Z makomo: White_Flame: ah ok then, i feel a bit better :D
2018-05-30T09:36:53Z jmercouris: is there a way for quicklisp to show non-lisp dependencies?
2018-05-30T09:36:57Z xificurC: White_Flame spreading sunshine
2018-05-30T09:37:02Z jmercouris: e.g. if a particular lib depends on gcc, is there a way to show that?
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2018-05-30T09:37:09Z jmercouris: when I say lib, I mean system
2018-05-30T09:37:22Z White_Flame: xificurC: /me stamping out wrongness, more like ;)
2018-05-30T09:37:26Z makomo: but i think LoL is a great book. it's an awesome lesson in macrology and a good brain strecher :-)
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2018-05-30T09:38:10Z makomo: xificurC: did you read the whole book?
2018-05-30T09:38:21Z White_Flame goes afk
2018-05-30T09:38:24Z xificurC: I didn't know e.g. that lambda isn't a special form
2018-05-30T09:39:02Z shka: LOL is not good introduction to lisp
2018-05-30T09:39:05Z xificurC: makomo: I did a few years back but I didn't understand all of it. Reading it now (1/3 in maybe) and getting more from it
2018-05-30T09:39:29Z xificurC: shka: LOL is also *extremely* elitist :)
2018-05-30T09:39:32Z makomo: shka: well of course
2018-05-30T09:39:35Z makomo: xificurC: also true :-)
2018-05-30T09:39:39Z makomo: but it's fun to read hah
2018-05-30T09:39:45Z shka: that is it's flaw
2018-05-30T09:39:59Z shka: elitism is stupid
2018-05-30T09:40:19Z xificurC: the whole book reeks of it
2018-05-30T09:40:32Z xificurC: I don't enjoy that either, but I guess I can still learn something from it
2018-05-30T09:41:18Z uberman quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-05-30T09:41:20Z jmercouris: you can learn how not to be
2018-05-30T09:41:23Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca
2018-05-30T09:41:23Z xificurC: I remember when I was reading it the first time someone here complained that defmacro! isn't safe when called in a nested fashion
2018-05-30T09:41:35Z makomo: xificurC: yeah, it's not portable
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2018-05-30T09:41:40Z makomo: since it does codewalking
2018-05-30T09:41:53Z makomo: which breaks on, for example, sbcl's backquote implementation
2018-05-30T09:41:59Z xificurC: codewalking isn't portable?
2018-05-30T09:42:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-05-30T09:42:03Z makomo: nope :^(
2018-05-30T09:42:09Z xificurC: example?
2018-05-30T09:42:15Z makomo: really sad imo, but there's a project called Agnostic Lizard by Michael Rasking
2018-05-30T09:42:17Z shka: xificurC: code walking is just something you should avoid
2018-05-30T09:42:21Z makomo: there's a talk and a gitlab repo
2018-05-30T09:42:34Z makomo: xificurC: for example, sbcl processes the comma inside a backquote as a STRUCT i think
2018-05-30T09:42:45Z makomo: it's a special STRUCT coming from the internals of SBCL
2018-05-30T09:42:55Z makomo: the expression the comma is evaluating in embedded into this struct
2018-05-30T09:43:08Z makomo: so codewalking the thing will give you a struct which is an atom (and also not a symbol)
2018-05-30T09:43:17Z makomo: instead of giving you something like a list of the form (COMMA ...expr...)
2018-05-30T09:43:50Z makomo: so the definition of defmacro! and defmacro!/g just skip over the atom
2018-05-30T09:43:55Z makomo: i.e. over the struct
2018-05-30T09:44:16Z makomo: and don't take into consideration the symbols within the comma struct
2018-05-30T09:44:29Z makomo: xificurC: Michael Raskin*
2018-05-30T09:44:53Z jmercouris: cffi not working on freebsd, I installed gcc via pkg, any suggestions?
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2018-05-30T09:44:56Z makomo: the project aims towards a portable codewalker, but "portable" in the sense of using heuristics/specializing for different implementations, i think
2018-05-30T09:45:23Z makomo: shka: why though?
2018-05-30T09:45:29Z makomo: WITH-SLOTS also does codewalking
2018-05-30T09:45:48Z shka: makomo: it does not
2018-05-30T09:45:56Z makomo: i'm pretty sure it does
2018-05-30T09:46:03Z shka: well, you are wrong
2018-05-30T09:46:07Z makomo: aside from using a symbol-macrolet, it also changes every SETQ to a SETF
2018-05-30T09:46:24Z shka: setf expands to setq on it's own
2018-05-30T09:46:34Z makomo: no, i mean something like this
2018-05-30T09:46:44Z makomo: (with-slots (a b c) obj (setq a 12))
2018-05-30T09:46:53Z makomo: this will set the slot A of the object
2018-05-30T09:47:01Z makomo: but you used SETQ instead of SETF
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2018-05-30T09:47:39Z makomo: it needs to use a coderwalker to do this
2018-05-30T09:47:43Z makomo: codewalker*
2018-05-30T09:48:06Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with using fastcgi and caveman2?
2018-05-30T09:48:40Z makomo: xificurC: the stuff on anaphoric and pandoric macros was amazing as well
2018-05-30T09:48:50Z makomo: and also the sorting networks chapter, that was also beautiful :-)
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2018-05-30T09:53:08Z makomo: shka: https://i.imgur.com/S6pXcw2.png, from On Lisp, 18.3, page 237
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2018-05-30T09:58:57Z jmercouris: trying to load fast-io and I get "Package STATIC-VECTORS does not exist."
2018-05-30T09:59:26Z jmercouris: I have no idea which system is defining this package, so I can't imagine how to fix it
2018-05-30T09:59:37Z jmercouris: it is apparently part of "fast-io"
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2018-05-30T10:00:58Z jmercouris: seems to be a package that refuses to compile on my system
2018-05-30T10:01:27Z TMA: jmercouris: (ql:quickload "static-vectors")
2018-05-30T10:01:47Z jmercouris: TMA: thanks
2018-05-30T10:02:13Z jmercouris: when dropped into the restarts screen, is it possible to execute any arbitrary lisp in the image?
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2018-05-30T10:02:20Z jmercouris: e.g. could I quickload something from the restarts screen?
2018-05-30T10:02:36Z jmercouris: huh, seems to be possible
2018-05-30T10:02:39Z makomo: jmercouris: you can execute lisp code within any of the frames. press "e" in the slime window
2018-05-30T10:02:39Z TMA: jmercouris: it should be possible, yes
2018-05-30T10:02:46Z makomo: assuming default keybinds ofc
2018-05-30T10:02:51Z makomo: in the debugger window*
2018-05-30T10:02:54Z jmercouris: I was using it in a terminal instead of slime for the first time
2018-05-30T10:02:57Z jmercouris: I didn't know how it would react
2018-05-30T10:03:24Z z3t0: hi
2018-05-30T10:03:42Z z3t0: I am having issues with trivial-gray-streams not compiling on sbcl, any ideas?
2018-05-30T10:03:56Z jmercouris: TMA: still no luck: https://gist.github.com/7eeab57d9e128fc0e56defe12d5d5eaf
2018-05-30T10:03:58Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2018-05-30T10:03:59Z z3t0: It is a dependency for cserial-port which I am trying to use
2018-05-30T10:04:44Z jmercouris: this is so unbelievably annoying, surely caveman2 works on freebsd
2018-05-30T10:04:54Z jmercouris: I must be missing something or misconfigured my install
2018-05-30T10:06:48Z TMA: jmercouris: try 3: [CLEAR-CONFIGURATION-AND-RETRY]
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2018-05-30T10:07:41Z TMA: jmercouris: but (find-package '#:static-vectors) returns #<PACKAGE "STATIC-VECTORS"> after (ql:quickload "static-vectors")
2018-05-30T10:08:00Z TMA: jmercouris: try (find-package '#:static-vectors)
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2018-05-30T10:08:31Z jmercouris: ok, let me give it a shot one second
2018-05-30T10:09:43Z TMA: z3t0: no idea. I have tried it and it compiles and loads fine
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2018-05-30T10:22:39Z jmercouris: TMA: returns nil
2018-05-30T10:24:04Z TMA: jmercouris: there is a problem with "static-vectors" on sbcl/freebsd then. I cannot help you further, I do not use freebsd. Sorry.
2018-05-30T10:24:12Z vsync quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2018-05-30T10:24:42Z jmercouris: oh well, thanks anyway!
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2018-05-30T10:25:22Z makomo: jmercouris: what's the compilation error anyway?
2018-05-30T10:25:42Z terpri joined #lisp
2018-05-30T10:28:01Z jmercouris: makomo: let me make a fresh session and show you, one second
2018-05-30T10:28:40Z jmercouris: makomo: https://gist.github.com/682059fa2e208e3f0a36132535127721
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2018-05-30T10:29:59Z makomo: so it fails somewhere in cffi?
2018-05-30T10:30:30Z jmercouris: yeah,
2018-05-30T10:30:35Z jmercouris: I already installed gcc via pkg
2018-05-30T10:30:39Z jmercouris: thinking about installing it via ports
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2018-05-30T10:34:47Z makomo: jmercouris: this seems to be the code https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/toolchain/bundle.lisp#L213
2018-05-30T10:34:51Z makomo: the os-cond bit is where it fails
2018-05-30T10:35:09Z makomo: are you sure os-cond is defined? can you M-. on it?
2018-05-30T10:36:40Z jmercouris: I'm not in emacs
2018-05-30T10:38:36Z TCZ joined #lisp
2018-05-30T10:39:14Z jmercouris: maybe this is actually an asdf issue then
2018-05-30T10:40:18Z makomo: my idea was that the errors you got are because OS-COND wasn't defined as a macro or something
2018-05-30T10:40:26Z makomo: i.e. it's trynig to evaluate its arguments
2018-05-30T10:40:37Z makomo: or maybe the OS-COND expansion is wrong, but somehow i doubt that
2018-05-30T10:40:57Z makomo: trying*
2018-05-30T10:41:27Z jmercouris: right, I see
2018-05-30T10:41:35Z jmercouris: let me first finish the reinstall of GCC, just because
2018-05-30T10:41:39Z jmercouris: and then I'll investigate that
2018-05-30T10:41:47Z jmercouris: and then finally I'll give up and use Linux on the server..
2018-05-30T10:41:53Z makomo: haha
2018-05-30T10:42:03Z TMA: jmercouris: sbcl 1.2.7's asdf is probably too old
2018-05-30T10:42:22Z jmercouris: TMA: how does one upgrade asdf? can you quickload it?
2018-05-30T10:43:44Z AetherWind quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-05-30T10:44:32Z jackdaniel: first you load asdf, then you load quicklisp
2018-05-30T10:45:12Z jackdaniel: downlaod prefered asdf (if you use sources, make will produce asdf.lisp file), and call (load (compile-file "asdf.lisp"))  before quicklisp/setup.lisp is called
2018-05-30T10:45:39Z shka: sbcl specific question
2018-05-30T10:46:02Z shka: let's say i want to ensure that instance of class has slots of the right types
2018-05-30T10:46:21Z jackdaniel: QL first checks, if ASDF is already loaded (if so, it does nothing), after that it calls (require 'asdf) (that gives you asdf bundled with implementation). if this yields nothing (errors that module is not found), it loads asdf 2.26 which is bundled with quicklisp as a fallback
2018-05-30T10:46:25Z shka: sbcl can check that if i set safety to 2 or 3
2018-05-30T10:47:15Z shka: is it sufficient to wrap defclass in optimize for safety 3 in order to ensure that i won't get the wrong type?
2018-05-30T10:48:29Z jackdaniel: did you try it? (it is sufficient for sbcl, yes)
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2018-05-30T10:49:54Z White_Flame: I would think it is highly dependent on when/where CLOS dispatch is recompiled, and if slot accessors are inlined somehow
2018-05-30T10:49:58Z White_Flame: but in practice, yeah
2018-05-30T10:50:04Z jameser quit (Client Quit)
2018-05-30T10:50:10Z shka: ok, thanks guys
2018-05-30T10:50:14Z shka: one more question though
2018-05-30T10:50:51Z shka: i am doing it right now by (let () (declare...) (defclass...))
2018-05-30T10:50:59Z jackdaniel: use operator locally
2018-05-30T10:51:05Z White_Flame: (let () (locally ...) (defclass...))
2018-05-30T10:51:14Z Xach: NO
2018-05-30T10:51:23Z jackdaniel: OK, don't use operator locally
2018-05-30T10:51:25Z jackdaniel: why? ;)
2018-05-30T10:51:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: one has to load asdf before loading quicklisp?
2018-05-30T10:51:28Z jmercouris: manually?
2018-05-30T10:51:33Z jmercouris: really?
2018-05-30T10:51:45Z shka: reading locally
2018-05-30T10:52:09Z shka: Xach: i should not use locally or my code is so horrible that you had to say NO?
2018-05-30T10:52:11Z jackdaniel: if you really want to load custom ASDF - I think yes. but maybe I have confused things (as Xach's veto would suggest)
2018-05-30T10:52:30Z White_Flame: shka: NO as in I nested it incorrectly
2018-05-30T10:52:37Z jackdaniel: shka: I think he was referring to my sloppy explanation of ql algorithm of ensuring ASDF
2018-05-30T10:52:42Z White_Flame: the locally is a scope itself
2018-05-30T10:53:01Z Xach: (let () (locally ...) ...) is not how it works
2018-05-30T10:53:03Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-05-30T10:53:03Z shka: ah, so i don't need let
2018-05-30T10:53:09Z shka: i see
2018-05-30T10:53:14Z shka: makes sense!
2018-05-30T10:53:17Z jackdaniel: ah, jmercouris – then yes, that's what I'm saying ;)
2018-05-30T10:53:18Z shka: thank you
2018-05-30T10:53:43Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I was under the impression that sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp will already handle this?
2018-05-30T10:53:49Z jmercouris: is that what are you saying in your later message?
2018-05-30T10:54:04Z jackdaniel: well, if you want *custom* asdf version, then it won't handle this
2018-05-30T10:54:23Z jackdaniel: because QL calls require for asdf module, which is bunded with the implementation (if no asdf is loaded beforehand)
2018-05-30T10:54:33Z jackdaniel: just as I described a few pages earlier
2018-05-30T10:55:01Z jmercouris: right, but I'm not interested in a custom version
2018-05-30T10:55:07Z jmercouris: I just would like to UPGRADE asdf
2018-05-30T10:55:19Z jmercouris: is the one that comes bundled with the SBCL release non-upgradable?
2018-05-30T10:55:25Z jmercouris: and the only path is to install something custom?
2018-05-30T10:55:27Z jmercouris: is this what you are saying?
2018-05-30T10:55:51Z jackdaniel: you have to load it from somewhere (this upgraded version), no?
2018-05-30T10:56:06Z jmercouris: well, when sbcl starts, is asdf not always there?
2018-05-30T10:56:11Z jmercouris: I don't recall ever having to do (require asdf)
2018-05-30T10:56:13Z jackdaniel: I have a trust issues with ASDF upgrade mechanism, but in principle you should be able to load ASDF on top of existing ASDF
2018-05-30T10:56:29Z jackdaniel: because Quicklisp does call require ASDF for you (as I have pointed out *twice* already)
2018-05-30T10:56:39Z jmercouris: there's no confusion about that
2018-05-30T10:56:46Z jmercouris: I am maybe not being clearn in my quesiton :\
2018-05-30T10:56:51Z jmercouris: s/quesiton/question
2018-05-30T10:56:59Z jmercouris: s/clearn/clear
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2018-05-30T10:57:20Z jmercouris: anyways, one step at a time, for now I'll build GCC
2018-05-30T10:58:19Z jmercouris: what OS/Distro do you guys use to deploy Lisp web applications?
2018-05-30T10:59:49Z White_Flame: usually not much attention is paid there ;)
2018-05-30T11:00:06Z White_Flame: but we are shifting over to docker, which makes it even less relevant
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2018-05-30T11:00:47Z jmercouris: so linux then
2018-05-30T11:02:29Z varjag: anyone here has production experience with mocl/ios?
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2018-05-30T11:47:17Z jmercouris: GCC has been compiling for almost an hour straight
2018-05-30T11:47:19Z jmercouris: this is unbeleivable
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2018-05-30T11:48:28Z jackdaniel: try compiling gcc on some low armv5 board snh
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2018-05-30T11:49:23Z shka: jackdaniel: very beleivable sadly
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2018-05-30T11:50:45Z jmercouris: I'm good, I'll stick to my computer :D
2018-05-30T11:51:09Z shka: c programs can take long time to build
2018-05-30T11:51:21Z shka: and C++ is in the class of it's own
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2018-05-30T11:54:41Z shka: jmercouris: when i started programming in C++ i had this very old machine with athlon 3200+ and 2GB of RAM
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2018-05-30T11:54:59Z shka: i contributed to medium sized open source project
2018-05-30T11:55:13Z shka: full rebuild takes 1 hour
2018-05-30T11:55:45Z shka: my workflow was to literally code, launch compilation and go jogging
2018-05-30T11:56:55Z shka: needless to say i was lean back then
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2018-05-30T11:58:27Z jackdaniel: I hope you did some thinking during the jogging? ;-)
2018-05-30T11:59:07Z shka: thinking? No. Shower is for thinking.
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2018-05-30T12:00:04Z jackdaniel: you haven't mentioned shower in your workflow loop
2018-05-30T12:00:43Z shka: :-)
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2018-05-30T13:06:43Z shrdlu68: https://imgur.com/a/hy7tRe4, screenshot from https://youtu.be/Z4oYSByyRak?t=11m40s
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2018-05-30T13:07:38Z shrdlu68: His assertion is that it is not possible to handle heap exhaustion in Lisp, among other languages he mentions, and thus "it is impossible to write perfect software in these languages">
2018-05-30T13:08:07Z jmercouris: what does it mean to write "perfect software"? of course it is possible to prove lisp programs
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2018-05-30T13:08:58Z shrdlu68: He's wrong, right? One can handle memory errors in Lisp?
2018-05-30T13:09:07Z jackdaniel: perfect software is the software which meets criteria subjectively chosen by the person who presents the topic ;)
2018-05-30T13:09:21Z jmercouris: He is wrong, yes
2018-05-30T13:09:34Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: in principle yes, implementation may raise a condition (and they often do)
2018-05-30T13:09:58Z jackdaniel: it may be a serious-condition which you may handle in handler-case
2018-05-30T13:11:32Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: His example of perfect software: https://imgur.com/a/ws1VDeU
2018-05-30T13:11:55Z jmercouris: Lol what
2018-05-30T13:11:58Z varjag: hwat
2018-05-30T13:12:03Z jmercouris: don't waste your time watching this person's video
2018-05-30T13:13:05Z jmercouris: better usage of your time might be reading about how to prove programs, and the set of languages that exist for proving programs/algorithms
2018-05-30T13:13:17Z jmercouris: of course, they have not lived up to the hype, but they are still interesting ideas
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2018-05-30T13:13:32Z shrdlu68: His argument is, that function will always return the correct output for the correct input - there won't be malloc errors, etc.
2018-05-30T13:13:51Z jmercouris: that argument has absolutely no merit
2018-05-30T13:14:06Z jmercouris: just because a program has state or memory does not mean that it cannot be proven
2018-05-30T13:14:55Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: He hasn't mentioned formal verification thus far.
2018-05-30T13:15:11Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I'm afraid I'm not quite presenting his arguments well.
2018-05-30T13:15:18Z jackdaniel: that reminds me a discussion whenever CL allows arbitrary big integers or the physical computer limitation counts here and CL can't have arbitrary big integers
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2018-05-30T13:16:30Z shrdlu68: If one attempted to add two large bignums on a system that's running out of memory, what exception would a lisp implementation raise?
2018-05-30T13:16:43Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: you might find this very interesting: http://uppaal.org
2018-05-30T13:16:52Z _death: it's like saying 1+1=2 is false because some gamma ray flipped a bit.. different levels of reality
2018-05-30T13:17:24Z shrdlu68: _death: He does say cosmis rays and hardware errors are out of scope...
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2018-05-30T13:17:53Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: ECL will report ext:storage-exhausted
2018-05-30T13:18:01Z jmercouris: well, that settles it
2018-05-30T13:18:07Z jmercouris: ECL is perfect, let's pack up boys
2018-05-30T13:18:12Z jmercouris: :D
2018-05-30T13:18:16Z jackdaniel: which is a condition inheriting from storage-condition, which inherits from serious-condition
2018-05-30T13:18:18Z _death: what about wetware errors
2018-05-30T13:18:28Z jackdaniel: (which does not inherit from error btw)
2018-05-30T13:18:36Z jackdaniel: my point is that it is implementation-dependent
2018-05-30T13:18:46Z jackdaniel: but you will probably get a condition on such situation
2018-05-30T13:19:13Z jmercouris: ah, but since it is not in the CLHS, may we say that CL is "non-perfect"?
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2018-05-30T13:20:56Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: you may say whatever you want – that doesn't mean people will understand you
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2018-05-30T13:22:48Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I am asking, IF we can agree that this condition is not defined in the CLHS and it results in undefined behavior, based on that youtuber's definition, can we say that CL is "non-perfect"?
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2018-05-30T13:27:28Z jackdaniel: even without that we may say that
2018-05-30T13:27:35Z jackdaniel: give me "perfection" criteria
2018-05-30T13:28:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yeah, the perfection crtieria is that one guy's perfection criteria, not myo wn
2018-05-30T13:28:34Z jmercouris: s/myo wn/my own
2018-05-30T13:29:15Z jmercouris: I think my sentence is pretty clear, though I also understand the point your making, "what is perfection"
2018-05-30T13:29:23Z jmercouris: s/your/you're
2018-05-30T13:29:54Z shka: is it correct? http://www.crategus.com/books/closer-mop/pages/sb-mop_fun_slot-definition-type.html
2018-05-30T13:29:54Z jackdaniel: if it is: doesn't have threads in the specification, CL is not perfect. if it is: doesn't have defined behavior for memory exhaustion in the spec, CL is not perfect. ;) fwiw he was talking about a perfect software, not a perfect language (judging from the screenshot)
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2018-05-30T13:30:22Z shka: 'allocation of slot'  does not sound like value of slot-definition-type
2018-05-30T13:31:19Z jackdaniel: copy-paste from http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-allocation.html ?
2018-05-30T13:31:43Z p_l: jackdaniel: Surprisingly little software deals well with memory exhaustion
2018-05-30T13:31:43Z jackdaniel: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-type.html
2018-05-30T13:31:53Z jackdaniel: shka: ↑ here you don't have this typo
2018-05-30T13:31:57Z p_l: sometimes it's in the spec, but not practically implemented (C on Linux)
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2018-05-30T13:32:45Z jackdaniel: having elaborate condition system certainly helps to get it "right"
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2018-05-30T13:34:00Z p_l: until it's pulled from under you externally, like typical case for C program on Linux, or the essentially equivalent case of people disabling GC on early LispMs
2018-05-30T13:34:24Z shka: jackdaniel: thanks, it got me confused
2018-05-30T13:34:55Z jackdaniel: p_l: I don't know about other implementations, but ECL has preallocated memory for reporting memory conditions
2018-05-30T13:35:10Z jackdaniel: so it does not allocate anything in order to signal them
2018-05-30T13:35:46Z p_l: jackdaniel: well, it's *ECL*, not "le random C/C++ crap written on and tested on only on Linux" ;)
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2018-05-30T13:59:07Z kami: Hello #lisp
2018-05-30T13:59:31Z skeuomorf: hello kami
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2018-05-30T14:12:27Z Younder: p_l: le random C++ crap ;)
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2018-05-30T14:37:32Z vindarel: Hello (common) lispers, little question on capturing standard output. I know with-output-to-string, but this doesn't suit my need because I'd like to return the string immediately, to not break the printing of the application. I'd like something like a defadvice, but this doesn't exist in SBCL. Do you think of something ? thx
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2018-05-30T14:38:40Z Bike: do you mean that you want to print to standard output but also capture it in a string?
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2018-05-30T14:40:04Z vindarel: Actually I don't care to capture to a string, I'd like to change it before it is printed (to highlight stuff).
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2018-05-30T14:40:48Z Younder: a read macro then
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2018-05-30T14:42:50Z vindarel: A reader macro ? I'd like to change output from third party code, that won't use the reader macro.
2018-05-30T14:43:12Z dlowe: vindarel: there's no simple mechanism for doing what you want to do.
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2018-05-30T14:44:35Z dlowe: You could set *standard-output* to an echo-stream, then use a thread for reading from that echo-stream and writing your changed version to standard output.
2018-05-30T14:44:48Z vindarel: Well ok thanks, this is what I needed to know. I'll re-think my programmatic interface then.
2018-05-30T14:44:54Z vindarel: thanks for the pointers.
2018-05-30T14:45:02Z dlowe: You could also use the gray streams extension, which would allow you to make a different kind of stream
2018-05-30T14:45:25Z dlowe: one that highlights and passes through to a wrapped stream
2018-05-30T14:45:46Z dlowe: http://www.crategus.com/books/trivial-gray-streams/
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2018-05-30T14:46:16Z dlowe: It's technically not portable, but it's practically mostly supported
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2018-05-30T14:47:13Z dlowe: Typically, though, you want to keep your data as structured as you can until just before you display it, to avoid munging text like this.
2018-05-30T14:47:20Z dlowe: It will be more reliable and easier to extend.
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2018-05-30T14:48:02Z vindarel: looking at gray-streams can be a good exercise. Still, I imagine it'd have been easy with a defadvice… maybe.
2018-05-30T14:49:08Z Younder: defadvice? whasn't that symbolics?
2018-05-30T14:49:16Z dlowe: it's in elisp
2018-05-30T14:49:23Z Younder: ahh
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2018-05-30T14:49:36Z dlowe: You will find that Younder actually has not written any lisp at all and is a poor source of information.
2018-05-30T14:50:26Z Younder: dlowe, Me thinks you exaggerate. Besides that was a question.
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2018-05-30T14:50:58Z dlowe: Younder: no, I think suggesting a read macro pretty much disqualifies you here.
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2018-05-30T14:52:09Z vindarel: elisp and Allegro I heard (or Lispworks)
2018-05-30T14:52:20Z Younder: oh, I see. I should have read the context better. I have however worked with read macro's.
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2018-05-30T16:11:11Z black_13: .
2018-05-30T16:11:28Z black_13: Bike: do you undstand the cffi system
2018-05-30T16:11:37Z black_13: or cffi in linux
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2018-05-30T16:14:15Z Bike: somewhat
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2018-05-30T16:16:50Z beach: black_13: I strongly recommend you program in Common Lisp instead.
2018-05-30T16:17:20Z black_13: can common be embedded in a windows application
2018-05-30T16:17:55Z Fare: black_13, using ecl, yes
2018-05-30T16:18:01Z Fare: black_13, or mkcl
2018-05-30T16:18:22Z black_13: I've not here of mkcl
2018-05-30T16:18:26Z jackdaniel: you need to keep things straight – if you want to call C (or C++) from CL, then you use FFI (scenario when your application is written in CL and you want to use C library)
2018-05-30T16:18:27Z black_13: heard
2018-05-30T16:18:51Z jackdaniel: MKCL is ECL's fork (with unclear goals is you ask me)
2018-05-30T16:19:14Z Fare: Does ECL have clear goals?
2018-05-30T16:19:30Z jackdaniel: if you want to call Common Lisp (and use it) from C application, you probably need ECL (or MKCL)
2018-05-30T16:19:31Z Fare: Does an implementation need goals?
2018-05-30T16:20:00Z Fare: People have written Windows applications using CCL, Allegro, LispWorks, etc.
2018-05-30T16:20:03Z Fare: without C
2018-05-30T16:20:10Z jackdaniel: Fare: well, usually when I see someone forking software something tells me, that there ought be a reason
2018-05-30T16:20:25Z jackdaniel: but I've failed to learn one in this case
2018-05-30T16:21:02Z Fare: I believe Jean-Claude had ideas on how to handle interrupts and other low-level details in C++
2018-05-30T16:21:16Z Fare: and JuanJo didn't want to go that way.
2018-05-30T16:21:43Z jackdaniel: from my reading of the old mailing lists it is not the case, but I was not around to argue about that
2018-05-30T16:22:05Z Fare: These are bad memories of second-hand accounts of a dispute I didn't myself read.
2018-05-30T16:23:46Z jackdaniel: black_13: either way, if you want to call C/C++ from Common Lisp – use FFI, if you want to call Common Lisp from C/C++ use one of the mentioned implementations. If you simply want to write application, you may use Common Lisp all the way down
2018-05-30T16:24:05Z Fare: As far as porting ASDF goes, it looks like MKCL fixed some of the bundle issues that I had with ECL (I believe that ECL fixed them since, but I've lost track.)
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2018-05-30T16:25:11Z Fare: I admit I never tried to build either MKCL or ECL on Windows.
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2018-05-30T16:33:58Z black_13: I want to call common lisp from c/c++ but that lisp will use exported c functions
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2018-05-30T16:34:54Z akkad: Fare: hey
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2018-05-30T16:36:05Z jmercouris: quick update, my issues were most definitely related to the version of asdf that I had
2018-05-30T16:36:12Z jmercouris: it seems on freebsd it makes sense to build SBCL from source
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2018-05-30T16:36:18Z jmercouris: otherwise you'll have too old a version
2018-05-30T16:36:34Z akkad: ports entry old?
2018-05-30T16:36:42Z jmercouris: I didn't check the ports entry
2018-05-30T16:36:45Z jmercouris: I only had it installed via pkg
2018-05-30T16:36:51Z jmercouris: and then I went to the SBCL site
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2018-05-30T17:14:25Z black_13: Fare: have you used mkcl
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2018-05-30T20:18:18Z White_Flame: to add to the discussion around https://imgur.com/a/ws1VDeU , his own thesis completely fails, because calling that function might cause a stack overflow in trying to push the return address & parameter.  It's still a "hidden allocation"
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2018-05-30T20:25:00Z __rumbler31: ...wat.
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2018-05-30T20:29:39Z pjb: White_Flame: indeed. The C standard defines a not-turing complete programming language, since it's not guaranteed that you can call functions.
2018-05-30T20:30:13Z White_Flame: ( https://imgur.com/a/hy7tRe4 if you missed the conversation above )
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2018-05-30T20:30:43Z jackdaniel: loosely related: http://www.yodaiken.com/2018/05/20/depressing-and-faintly-terrifying-days-for-the-c-standard/
2018-05-30T20:30:55Z pjb: The problem is not the C programming language, it's the "C" programmers.
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2018-05-30T20:31:11Z pjb: They don't know their language, and they don't know how to program.
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2018-05-30T20:32:55Z jackdaniel: I'm sure there is fairly large base of C programmers who do know how to program
2018-05-30T20:33:19Z pjb: I've not witnessed a large C code base to sustain this affirmation.
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2018-05-30T20:33:43Z jackdaniel: (did you witness a large CL code base which did?)
2018-05-30T20:33:44Z pjb: All the C code you see is crap, be it free software, or commercial proprietary code.
2018-05-30T20:33:55Z pjb: Yes, CL code is better.
2018-05-30T20:34:13Z p_l: C code actively pursues certain level of brokennes due to hacks done in name of speed
2018-05-30T20:34:27Z pjb: There is newbie lisp code around, but there's also a lot of good CL code, and even very nice CL code.
2018-05-30T20:34:41Z p_l: recent brouhahaha with Mono developers finding out that XLc maps page 0 as read-only page full of zeroes is a nice example
2018-05-30T20:34:54Z pjb: :-)
2018-05-30T20:35:10Z pjb: Yeah, they don't know anything.
2018-05-30T20:35:12Z White_Flame: wow, this guy just basically reinvented java-style explicitly required exception handlers
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2018-05-30T20:42:18Z rpg: Is there some way to use conditional compilation (#+) to include code that is dependent on SBCL version?
2018-05-30T20:44:32Z rpg: allegro has #+allegro-version<, for example
2018-05-30T20:46:23Z rpg: ASDF relies on some internal code that has just changed in SBCL.
2018-05-30T20:47:05Z TMA: rpg: #+sbcl (pushnew (intern (lisp-implementation-version) :keyword) *features*) and then you can #+(and sbcl 1.3.18) for example
2018-05-30T20:47:14Z White_Flame: "Recursion is one of the enemies of perfect software" - zig guy
2018-05-30T20:48:06Z aeth: p_l: Well... there's always (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) for when you want to pursue a level of brokenness due to hacks done in the name of speed.
2018-05-30T20:48:16Z aeth: (And, conversely, there are safe subsets of C.)
2018-05-30T20:48:26Z p_l: aeth: even then there's less UB
2018-05-30T20:48:28Z rpg: TMA: that *almost* works, but I need a comparison ("older than 1.4.7," for example).  I can do this with version< but am running into nightmarish issues with when exactly bits of ASDF are read....
2018-05-30T20:48:56Z p_l: aeth: and any safe subset of C is pretty much a forked language, like the language used to write Linux kernel is a fork of C (it's neither standard nor GNU C)
2018-05-30T20:50:29Z golden_rule: hummmm
2018-05-30T20:51:21Z p_l: (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)), even when it let me overwrite function object metadata by mistaken SETF, I think still gives safer code than C does under normal rules
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2018-05-30T20:57:20Z rpg: TMA: the problem for me is that all of ASDF is read so I need to get something into the *features* at the start, before anything additional is read....
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2018-05-30T21:00:49Z Bike: you can do #+#. stuff
2018-05-30T21:00:54Z Bike: it is Nasty though
2018-05-30T21:02:49Z TMA: rpg: older than can be expressed by listing all previous version numbers in an #+(and sbcl (or 1.0.0 1.0.1 ...)) ... it gets unwieldy rather quickly, but it can be done in principle
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2018-05-30T21:03:55Z rpg: TMA: No, that really won't work adequately well
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2018-05-30T21:04:48Z rpg: This really doesn't seem like a big ask.  Don't people have code that uses SBCL APIs that have changed?  I'm boggled that this isn't supported.
2018-05-30T21:06:45Z TMA: rpg: you can intern not just 1.2.3 but 1.2 and 1 too ... that would cut the list down considerably
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2018-05-30T21:08:02Z Bike: the one time i had to do that i did it specifically with the features
2018-05-30T21:08:21Z Bike: something like #+#.(find-symbol "SOME-INTERFACE" "SB-WHATEVER")
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2018-05-30T21:08:55Z rpg: Bike: My problem is that the COMPILER-ERROR-CONTEXT structure has changed in 1.4.7, which is causing extreme pain in ASDF's deferred warnings code.
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2018-05-30T21:13:25Z TMA: #+(and sbcl (or sbcl-0 sbcl-1.0 sbcl-1.1 sbcl-1.2 sbcl-1.3 sbcl-1.4.0 sbcl-1.4.1 sbcl-1.4.2 sbcl-1.4.3 sbcl-1.4.4 sbcl-1.4.5 sbcl-1.4.6)) old code
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2018-05-30T21:17:24Z TMA: rpg: the alternative: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load :execute) (when (version< (lisp-implementation-version) "1.4.7") (pushnew :sbcl-old-compiler-error-context *features*)))
2018-05-30T21:18:19Z rpg: TMA: That would work if I wasn't fixing ASDF -- until ASDF is successfully loaded, VERSION< isn't available.  And... VERSION< has a big dependency tail throughout ASDF.  So there's a chicken-and-egg problem there.
2018-05-30T21:19:40Z TMA: maybe you will need to implement trivial-version< for this in the very same eval-when, then
2018-05-30T21:20:19Z nirved: rpg: an easier check would be (cl:find-symbol "COMPILER-ERROR-CONTEXT-ORIGINAL-FORM" "SB-C")
2018-05-30T21:20:28Z rpg: TMA: I tried copying hunks of ASDF and UIOP into LABELS for that, but the hunks got very big, very fast (parsing the version string, splitting the version string, lexicographic sort...)
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2018-05-30T21:20:38Z rpg: nirved: Yes, that's what I'm doing now, thanks.
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2018-05-30T21:21:07Z rpg: Still, swiping Franz's :version< reader magic seems like it would be a Very Good Thing
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2018-05-30T21:24:31Z rpg: Checking for a minimum SBCL version seems like it should not be so painful.
2018-05-30T21:24:49Z rpg: OTOH, I guess that's just the kind of pain that ASDF saves the user.
2018-05-30T21:25:58Z pjb: I use: #+(COM.INFORMATIMAGO.SBCL.VERSION:RT-VERSION< "1.5" (cl:lisp-implementation-version))
2018-05-30T21:26:50Z rpg: pjb: Right, but that relies on loading ASDF to load COM.INFORMATIONIMAGO which.... I can't do because I'm compiling ASDF!
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2018-05-30T21:27:59Z pjb: Oops.
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2018-05-30T21:28:12Z pjb: You will have to copy-and-paste the source.
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2018-05-30T21:29:25Z rpg appreciates the irony: stassats broke the legacy ASDF on SBCL, and it's stassats who refuses to update the ASDF version in SBCL.
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2018-05-30T21:31:05Z akkad: but stas is such a easy person to work with :P
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2018-05-30T21:52:16Z rpg: I wish I knew if anyone *used* the deferred warnings in ASDF...  It seems to be disabled by default.  Maybe maintaining it is just a waste of my time...
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2018-05-30T21:56:17Z devon: What's different about deferred warnings?
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2018-05-30T21:57:34Z MichaelRaskin: Is it about :warnings-file ?
2018-05-30T21:58:06Z rpg: It slurps up warnings -- especially undefined function warnings -- over the course of an ASDF operation, and then squelches ones that aren't relevant.  I suspect that this was introduced in the hopes of later parallelizing compilations and dispensing with the outer WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT.
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2018-05-30T22:02:09Z aeth: What's the barrier to parallelizing compilations?
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2018-05-30T22:03:43Z rpg: aeth: all ASDF operations are wrapped in a single WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT
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2018-05-30T22:04:47Z rpg: aeth: gotta go, sorry -- leave me a note (or post to asdf-devel) if you have more questions!
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2018-05-30T22:30:22Z skeuomorf: What I'd give for coleslaw to do what I want for once
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2018-05-30T22:31:48Z White_Flame: aeth: compile-time side effects
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2018-05-30T22:35:31Z aeth: White_Flame: compile-time side effects are great
2018-05-30T22:36:07Z jmercouris: nothing better!
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2018-05-30T22:36:40Z aeth: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)
2018-05-30T22:36:43Z aeth: oops
2018-05-30T22:36:50Z jmercouris: you dropped this ")"
2018-05-30T22:37:17Z aeth: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (zr:launch-example-window)) ; run compile time games!
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2018-05-30T22:43:16Z aeth: The future of programming is source code that compiles one of two things depending on whether or not the human at the computer managed to win a game of chess at compile time.
2018-05-30T22:43:41Z jmercouris: (defun make-thread (bt:make-thread (lambda () (make-thread)))) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (make-thread)) ; do you want to play a game?
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2018-05-31T00:58:59Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Is there a way to get the generated page title in coleslaw to be == post title?
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2018-05-31T01:02:31Z grand-beginner-t: I've been pondering lisp OS's (and smalltalk/forth, et al.). I suppose the biggest issue in writing one would be the drivers and interrupt mechanics (maybe GC doesn't mix too well with these things, I'm not qualified to make an assertion). Any thoughts or comments? Thought it might be an interesting discussion.
2018-05-31T01:03:00Z Fare: grand-beginner-t, Rust
2018-05-31T01:03:31Z Fare: With a proper type system (see also prescheme), you can write the low-level parts in Lisp.
2018-05-31T01:05:06Z skeuomorf: grand-beginner-t: I remember hearing Gerry Sussman a while back complaining explicitly about writing drivers in functional languages and how much of a challenge it is :)
2018-05-31T01:05:21Z grand-beginner-t: I understand that a DSL could be written that acts similarly to C or Rust, but I'm referring to the nature of the OS itself - being object-based and similar to a smalltalk environment
2018-05-31T01:05:37Z grand-beginner-t: or emacs-based, etc.
2018-05-31T01:07:07Z skeuomorf: Hey jackdaniel, do you happen to know if there is a way to get the generated
2018-05-31T01:07:07Z skeuomorf:                   page title in coleslaw to be == post title?
2018-05-31T01:07:07Z skeuomorf: 03:02 *** TCZ JOIN
2018-05-31T01:07:21Z skeuomorf: Gee, thanks emacs!
2018-05-31T01:07:29Z TCZ:  yes i join its true
2018-05-31T01:07:32Z TCZ: o.O
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2018-05-31T01:07:53Z grand-beginner-t: I think my question (and the direction of my thought) may not actually make proper sense.
2018-05-31T01:07:58Z skeuomorf: Hey jackdaniel, do you happen to know if there is a way to get the generated page title in Coleslaw to be == post title?
2018-05-31T01:08:03Z TCZ: i used irc in emacs once and i spammed channel with some stupid shortcut
2018-05-31T01:08:15Z skeuomorf: TCZ: haha
2018-05-31T01:11:05Z eschatologist: grand-beginner-t: if you’re thinking about Lisp operating systems, first look at Mezzano and read the Symbolics Genera and TI Explorer documentation
2018-05-31T01:11:41Z grand-beginner-t: Ah I've heard of mezzano, I'll read up on the latters though
2018-05-31T01:11:46Z eschatologist: You can also read the code for Smalltalk-80 and its successors, which run on a variety of hardware.
2018-05-31T01:12:05Z eschatologist: Do not expect to find a UNIX-like OS model.
2018-05-31T01:12:18Z grand-beginner-t: I won't
2018-05-31T01:12:25Z eschatologist: And GC isn’t nearly the big deal people seem to think it is.
2018-05-31T01:12:47Z eschatologist: Oh no, there has to be some wiring of memory and locking of accesses in drivers, just like in every operating system!
2018-05-31T01:12:51Z grand-beginner-t: I think technically unix does "gc" as well when processes are destroyed.
2018-05-31T01:13:25Z eschatologist: Not all that similar except at the very highest levels.
2018-05-31T01:13:26Z grand-beginner-t: From a high-level perspective lol.
2018-05-31T01:13:32Z grand-beginner-t: Yes
2018-05-31T01:14:42Z grand-beginner-t: This isn't entirely lisp oriented but has anyone read of COS? It's an object system with dynamic, multiple dispatch copying CLOS but for C.
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2018-05-31T01:17:21Z skeuomorf: When using slime, it keeps idling showing me
2018-05-31T01:17:22Z skeuomorf:                   "error in process filter: Wrong number of
2018-05-31T01:17:22Z skeuomorf:                   arguments: (0 . 1), 2" in the minibuffer then
2018-05-31T01:17:22Z skeuomorf:                   continuing to work, repeatedly, what's up?
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2018-05-31T01:17:38Z skeuomorf: jeez
2018-05-31T01:18:27Z skeuomorf: When using slime, it keeps idling show me "error in process filter: wrong number of arguments: (0 . 1), 2" in the minibuffer then continuing to work repeatedly, what's up with that?
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2018-05-31T01:19:48Z White_Flame: do you have a slime version mismatch on startup?
2018-05-31T01:20:21Z White_Flame: the emacs-loaded slime code and the lisp-loaded swank server can get out of date with each other depending on what you update when
2018-05-31T01:22:17Z skeuomorf: White_Flame: nope, I don't get mismatch on startup
2018-05-31T01:23:20Z Bike: you could try toggle-debug-on-error and have a fun time debugging
2018-05-31T01:26:36Z skeuomorf: Bike: It doesn't error out, it's just a message that appears in the minibuffer while causing slime to idle for a bit
2018-05-31T01:27:08Z Bike: yeah, it should just print a backtrace and stuff when the error's signaled, even if it's handled later
2018-05-31T01:27:16Z Bike: worked when i hit a different error in process filter
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2018-05-31T01:32:14Z skeuomorf: Bike: Well, I tried, I enabled `slime-toggle-debug-on-swank-error`, didn't do anything
2018-05-31T01:32:23Z Bike: weird
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2018-05-31T02:08:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: skeuomorf: you have to have the git version of slime for that error
2018-05-31T02:08:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you using emacs 26? some of emacs's apis changed and the relevant slime changes are not released yet.
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2018-05-31T02:59:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-31T03:01:02Z Fare: Bonjour!
2018-05-31T03:01:17Z Fare: are you in France? It's very early there!
2018-05-31T03:01:35Z beach: Not that early.  5am.
2018-05-31T03:02:07Z beach: Waking up early is a genetic defect in my family.
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2018-05-31T04:48:03Z epony: I would consider it a lucky gene.
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2018-05-31T04:52:25Z beach: I do to, actually.
2018-05-31T04:52:30Z beach: too
2018-05-31T04:52:38Z epony: yes
2018-05-31T04:53:34Z epony: And, most wonderful sunrises these days here too with a full moon on the opposite side of the sky at the same time..
2018-05-31T04:54:23Z beach: Nice.
2018-05-31T04:54:38Z White_Flame: sunrise is best experienced before finally going to sleep
2018-05-31T04:54:42Z epony: Plus, lime tree blossom nightly scent..
2018-05-31T04:54:56Z White_Flame: the sign of a productive night
2018-05-31T04:55:01Z epony: :-)
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2018-05-31T06:49:42Z merskiasa: Anyone here able to write an IRC bot like this: http://www.omnimaga.org/computer-projects-and-ideas/haroldbot-%28theorem-prover-solver%29
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2018-05-31T06:55:11Z beach: merskiasa: Are you planning to offer such a person some money?
2018-05-31T06:55:26Z merskiasa: beach, yes
2018-05-31T06:55:47Z merskiasa: The thing has four modes: 1) solve, 2) quantified solve, 3) calculation and 4) prove.
2018-05-31T06:56:10Z merskiasa: 1) solve and 4) prove are basically identical, because they differ only in predicate to prove (equality for solve and arbitrary comparison for prove). Prove needs a way to interpret results
2018-05-31T06:56:35Z merskiasa: I know how to formulate problem in CNF/BDD form. I also know how to use SAT solver. I haven't implemented interpretation of unsatisfability results.
2018-05-31T06:56:53Z merskiasa: beach, you interested in the project?
2018-05-31T06:57:03Z beach: Nope.  Sorry.
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2018-05-31T07:00:59Z siraben: brb restarting erc
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2018-05-31T07:29:36Z merskiasa: Anyone want to work on the project with me?
2018-05-31T07:32:26Z beach: merskiasa: It's a bit far from the interests of most #lisp participants.
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2018-05-31T07:35:18Z shka_: not enough detail
2018-05-31T07:35:20Z shka_: s
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2018-05-31T07:37:05Z merskiasa: shka_, How so? What would you like to know?
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2018-05-31T08:06:41Z merskiasa: shka_, ??
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2018-05-31T08:17:52Z beach: merskiasa: I suspect shka_ would not be interested anyway, but I might be wrong.
2018-05-31T08:19:24Z shka_: beach: busy with my own stuff, but merskiasa didn't even said what the heck he is doing
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2018-05-31T08:34:40Z skeuomorf: PuercoPop: Here?
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2018-05-31T09:00:04Z addsub: greets, I can't find lisp games channel
2018-05-31T09:00:16Z addsub: anybody happen to know whereis at.
2018-05-31T09:01:01Z White_Flame: it's hidden in the cryptically named #lispgames
2018-05-31T09:01:30Z xificurC: White_Flame: a good lisper writes lisp-games
2018-05-31T09:02:37Z addsub: :D
2018-05-31T09:02:56Z p_l: an old lisper writes lspgms
2018-05-31T09:03:18Z shrdlu68: sacrilege
2018-05-31T09:03:37Z White_Flame: and older lisper writes LISP games
2018-05-31T09:04:02Z p_l: no, no, you see, the symbol had to fit in 36bits, so case is irrelevant but only 6 letters ;)
2018-05-31T09:04:21Z p_l: how do you think RPLACA happened? :D
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2018-05-31T09:06:24Z TMA: it is for similar reasons the unix syscall is called creat
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2018-05-31T09:06:35Z p_l: think so
2018-05-31T09:06:50Z p_l: it's definitely the reason for Pascal function names
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2018-05-31T09:07:03Z p_l: (and case insensitivity - 60bit symbols in Pascals case)
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2018-05-31T09:08:36Z shrdlu68: TMA: Apparently they had a choice on that one: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson
2018-05-31T09:11:03Z merskiasa: Is anyone interested in helping me with my project?
2018-05-31T09:12:46Z skeuomorf: bah, who else uses coleslaw?
2018-05-31T09:13:26Z shka_: merskiasa: you didn't even said what your project is you blockhead
2018-05-31T09:13:50Z beach: shka_: Actually, merskiasa provided a link.
2018-05-31T09:14:03Z shka_: oh, that's new
2018-05-31T09:14:24Z shrdlu68: What's the link?
2018-05-31T09:14:29Z beach: *sigh*
2018-05-31T09:14:40Z merskiasa: <merskiasa> Anyone here able to write an IRC bot like this: http://www.omnimaga.org/computer-projects-and-ideas/haroldbot-%28theorem-prover-solver%29
2018-05-31T09:14:49Z merskiasa: <merskiasa> The thing has four modes: 1) solve, 2) quantified solve, 3) calculation and 4) prove.
2018-05-31T09:14:49Z merskiasa: <merskiasa> 1) solve and 4) prove are basically identical, because they differ only in predicate to prove (equality for solve and arbitrary comparison for prove). Prove needs a way to interpret results
2018-05-31T09:14:49Z merskiasa: <merskiasa> I know how to formulate problem in CNF/BDD form. I also know how to use SAT solver. I haven't implemented interpretation of unsatisfability results.
2018-05-31T09:15:05Z merskiasa: http://haroldbot.nl/how.html
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2018-05-31T09:17:57Z shka_: sounds boring
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2018-05-31T09:18:56Z beach: shka_: Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
2018-05-31T09:19:26Z shka_: eh, kinda
2018-05-31T09:20:17Z shka_: i have a bit of personal issues at the moment
2018-05-31T09:20:25Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2018-05-31T09:20:43Z shka_: no worries, i shouldn't be a asshole for sure
2018-05-31T09:20:50Z merskiasa: :/
2018-05-31T09:21:07Z shrdlu68: Sounds interesting, but a little too involved to just casually waddle into for me.
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2018-05-31T09:22:02Z shka_: merskiasa: maybe you can simplify the problem by using prolog?
2018-05-31T09:23:06Z shka_: sorry, i need to restart my machine
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2018-05-31T09:40:47Z merskiasa: shka_, That could be possible, how exactly?
2018-05-31T09:40:58Z merskiasa: What were you thinking
2018-05-31T09:41:08Z shka_: well, you can use paip prolog
2018-05-31T09:41:15Z shka_: there is one in quicklisp already
2018-05-31T09:42:05Z shka_: it is rather messy and if i would have more time i would write my own (with thread safety and perhaps even parallel unification built in) but it should be enough for you
2018-05-31T09:47:15Z shka_: anyway
2018-05-31T09:47:40Z shka_: i have issue with (locally (defclass
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2018-05-31T09:48:24Z shka_: namely: defmethods complain about class not existing
2018-05-31T09:49:22Z shka_: i think i know what may be wrong
2018-05-31T09:49:43Z beach: Why would you want to wrap DEFCLASS in LOCALLY?
2018-05-31T09:50:51Z shka_: beach: to add (declare (optimize (safety 3)))
2018-05-31T09:51:04Z beach: I see.
2018-05-31T09:51:23Z shka_: well, i have no idea what is going on here
2018-05-31T09:51:52Z shka_: if i compile defclass forms independly it works
2018-05-31T09:52:12Z shka_: but when loading asdf, it starts to be problematic
2018-05-31T09:52:52Z shka_: it is almost like locally forms are skipped, and loaded at the end
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2018-05-31T09:53:52Z shka_: beach: maybe i should simply declaim instead?
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2018-05-31T09:54:35Z beach: It ought to work, I think.  What are the symptoms of the problem?
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2018-05-31T09:55:11Z shka_: well, i have file with few locally defclass and few methods (initialize-instance)
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2018-05-31T09:56:21Z shka_: when i attempt to load with quicklisp (which just calls asdf i think) it won't load because of unkown class
2018-05-31T09:56:28Z shka_: but when i load file on my own, it just works
2018-05-31T09:56:31Z beach: Yes, I think that's correct.
2018-05-31T09:56:54Z beach: The body of LOCALLY is not treated as top-level forms.
2018-05-31T09:57:35Z beach: Nope, sorry, I was wrong.
2018-05-31T09:57:53Z beach: So it should work.
2018-05-31T09:58:07Z lieven: yeah the last sentence of LOCALLY says: If a locally form is a top level form, the body forms are also processed as top level forms.
2018-05-31T09:58:17Z beach: Indeed.  Just checked.
2018-05-31T09:58:23Z beach: Now, what about DEFCLASS.
2018-05-31T09:58:30Z shka_: i wonder what about (let () instead
2018-05-31T09:58:45Z beach: That's definitely not going to be top-level then.
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2018-05-31T09:59:09Z beach: clhs defclass.
2018-05-31T09:59:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for defclass..
2018-05-31T09:59:13Z beach: clhs defclass
2018-05-31T09:59:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2018-05-31T10:00:27Z beach: You are not trying to instantiate the class at compile time, are you?
2018-05-31T10:00:30Z lieven: defclass is used as an example in the ISSUE about locally and I see no reason why it shouldn't work
2018-05-31T10:00:50Z lieven: also 3.2.3.1.1 mentions it
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2018-05-31T10:02:27Z shka_: beach: actually i do, but it looks like separate problem
2018-05-31T10:02:54Z shka_: or not
2018-05-31T10:03:11Z shka_: added eval-always and it works?
2018-05-31T10:03:15Z shka_: what the heck
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2018-05-31T10:04:23Z shka_: maybe i misread error message
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2018-05-31T10:05:30Z shka_: yes
2018-05-31T10:05:47Z shka_: beach: ok, got it
2018-05-31T10:05:53Z shka_: thanks for help
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2018-05-31T10:17:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: How
2018-05-31T10:17:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: Phone messed up. Hi.
2018-05-31T10:19:34Z shka_: theemacsshibe[m]: hello
2018-05-31T10:20:10Z shka_: beach: fixed, i wanted to clever and extracted list of slots during macroexpand
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2018-05-31T10:20:28Z shka_: not a great idea i gess
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2018-05-31T10:23:28Z p_l: hmm, is there a list somewhere of what is included in Allegro Free Edition and what isn't?
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2018-05-31T10:25:38Z beach: shka_: Yeah, that is problematic.
2018-05-31T10:25:54Z shka_: well, fixed
2018-05-31T10:26:03Z beach: Congratulations!
2018-05-31T10:26:24Z shka_: but i will have to give accessors manually
2018-05-31T10:26:40Z shka_: which is semi-annoying
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2018-05-31T14:14:16Z BepBep: Anyone have an opinion on using TXR or Guile for scripting?
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2018-05-31T14:23:59Z edgar-rft: BepBep, we of course suggest using Common Lisp instead :-)
2018-05-31T14:24:19Z dlowe: The "any lisp goes" channel is ##lisp
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2018-05-31T14:29:21Z beach: BepBep: In other words, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-05-31T14:30:34Z beach: BepBep: Choice 1: Write your entire application in Common Lisp.  Choice 2 (if you already have an application written in some static language): Use ECL.
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2018-05-31T14:32:20Z Xach: I have a long-running interest in exposing cl-js as a scripting system for a Common Lisp application
2018-05-31T14:33:05Z beach: Xach: What makes you need anything other than Common Lisp itself?
2018-05-31T14:35:14Z shka_: that's… weird
2018-05-31T14:35:25Z BepBep: beach: I'm looking to run one-liners in the shell mostly. Do you think that's do-able with any implementations?
2018-05-31T14:35:59Z shka_: only issue i see is that it is difficult to sandbox lisp code in existing implementations
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2018-05-31T14:38:14Z beach: BepBep: Oh, so you don't mean adding a dynamic language to an existing application written in some static language?  In that case, I have no advice for you.  Maybe someone else knows more.  But again, this is a Common Lisp channel, so you will get biased answers.
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2018-05-31T14:39:31Z BepBep: beach: all my static applications are already written in Common Lisp. I'd just script it with it like a sane person if that were the case.
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2018-05-31T14:40:42Z beach: BepBep: I think we must be talking past each other.
2018-05-31T14:41:18Z dlowe: BepBep: sbcl has a --script option that can be used with #!
2018-05-31T14:41:30Z dlowe: and it will behave sensibly in a unix environment
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2018-05-31T14:46:29Z Fare: or #!/usr/bin/cl-launch keeps it portable.
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2018-05-31T14:47:07Z dlowe: portable to computers with cl-launch installed
2018-05-31T14:47:30Z Fare: some computers have cl-launch but no sbcl
2018-05-31T14:47:50Z Fare: and/or you may prefer a different implementation
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2018-05-31T14:48:17Z Fare: or may want to switch implementation depending on being on one platform or the other.
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2018-05-31T15:06:19Z beach: So I guess I have the wrong idea about what "scripting" means?
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2018-05-31T15:10:00Z dlowe: For me, scripting means "simulating the actions that a user would take"
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2018-05-31T15:10:16Z beach: Oh!
2018-05-31T15:11:38Z dlowe: It's a fuzzy term, and my definition is obviously not authoritative, but it seems to cover most of the de facto uses
2018-05-31T15:11:51Z beach: I thought it meant "a user adding functionality to an existing application through the use of some dynamic language"
2018-05-31T15:12:37Z dlowe: well, if you are performing actions with this dynamic language that a user could perform through the ui, that's scripting
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2018-05-31T15:12:55Z dlowe: if you are adding capabilities that are not available through the ui, that's usually called a plugin
2018-05-31T15:13:57Z dlowe: "scripting" is also short for "shell scripting" though
2018-05-31T15:14:20Z beach: I see.
2018-05-31T15:15:35Z beach: Wikipedia seems to be using "extension language" for what I was describing.
2018-05-31T15:16:31Z jmercouris: I think scripting language is ambiguous
2018-05-31T15:16:45Z jmercouris: but basically people just use it as a way to allow users to extend an application
2018-05-31T15:16:55Z jmercouris: it's like an API/language for the end user of an application
2018-05-31T15:16:57Z jmercouris: that is how I think of them
2018-05-31T15:17:05Z beach: The way I have seen "plugin" used is for modules that are written in the same (static) language as the main language of the application, but that are compiled and then loaded through some dynamic-linking mechanism.  I guess I need to get my terminology right, or at least clear.
2018-05-31T15:17:23Z beach: jmercouris: yes, that's how I have been using it.
2018-05-31T15:17:29Z jmercouris: It's not that you need to get your terminology right, it is rather that there is no terminology
2018-05-31T15:17:33Z jmercouris: at least no consistent application of it
2018-05-31T15:17:51Z jmercouris: beach: I think you are right in thinking of it that way
2018-05-31T15:18:02Z jmercouris: the problem is when people start to say stuff like "javascript is a scripting language"
2018-05-31T15:18:05Z beach: Then I must make sure I express my self in a way that it unambiguous to my audience.
2018-05-31T15:18:07Z jmercouris: what would that even mean??
2018-05-31T15:18:19Z jmercouris: what makes a language a scripting language vs a non-scripting language?
2018-05-31T15:18:27Z beach: Right, as my slides explain, "scripting language" does not mean much.
2018-05-31T15:18:30Z jmercouris: javascript outside of the browser, aka node.js is a full blow language
2018-05-31T15:18:35Z jmercouris: s/blow/blown
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2018-05-31T15:19:09Z jmercouris: yeah, I think best to avoid these terms, as they mean many things to different people
2018-05-31T15:20:07Z beach: Anyway, thanks.  I should be more careful.
2018-05-31T15:20:23Z dlowe: yeah, there's no consistent terminology
2018-05-31T15:20:46Z dlowe: but as long as everyone knows it, I think it's okay to be vaguely hand-wavey
2018-05-31T15:21:18Z beach: True.  But when I give a talk to industry, there is little feedback, so it is best to be clear.
2018-05-31T15:21:22Z Fare: I argued at some previous ELS that the important part of "scripting language" was "low overhead computing".
2018-05-31T15:21:25Z dlowe: a "scripting language" is a language that is good for, or often used to, simulate a user's actions
2018-05-31T15:21:54Z Fare: i.e. with minimal overhead (e.g. #!/usr/bin/cl ) you can write code that will run and do what you want.
2018-05-31T15:22:02Z dlowe: clearly there's transition between doing things to 10 things and doing things to 1,000,000
2018-05-31T15:22:18Z jmercouris: Fare: you have something like /usr/bin/cl on your machine?
2018-05-31T15:22:44Z beach: Fare: So you assume an environment that is basically hostile to Common Lisp?
2018-05-31T15:22:50Z Fare: as opposed to the complex ceremony you need to get anything to run with a C program
2018-05-31T15:22:57Z Fare: jmercouris, apt install cl-launch
2018-05-31T15:22:57Z beach: Fare: Otherwise, just typing the Common Lisp form would be low overhead.
2018-05-31T15:23:07Z jmercouris: Fare: I'm not running Ubuntu/Debian
2018-05-31T15:23:26Z Fare: beach: cl -iw '(+ 1 1)'
2018-05-31T15:23:37Z Fare: jmercouris, what are you using?
2018-05-31T15:23:39Z jmercouris: I guess I could do /opt/local/bin/sbcl...
2018-05-31T15:23:45Z jmercouris: Fare: I am using MacOS and FreeBSD
2018-05-31T15:23:54Z jmercouris: I use Mac for my Laptop, and FreeBSD for deployment
2018-05-31T15:24:09Z Fare: I'm not sure whether cl-launch has been packaged for either, but it will run.
2018-05-31T15:24:28Z jmercouris: Fare: https://github.com/fare/cl-launch?
2018-05-31T15:24:41Z Fare: I believe that's a valid mirror indeed
2018-05-31T15:25:09Z jmercouris: Fare: does a repository of useful scripts exist?
2018-05-31T15:25:19Z jmercouris: aka scripts written with cl-launch in mind?
2018-05-31T15:25:40Z Fare: jmercouris, fare-scripts, maybe
2018-05-31T15:26:41Z jmercouris: link for the curious: https://github.com/fare/fare-scripts
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2018-05-31T15:47:17Z Xach: beach: for other people, not me
2018-05-31T15:48:02Z beach: I see.
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2018-05-31T16:51:17Z p_l: beach: well, environment that is accessible... For LispM the equivalent would be to write some utility functions and (on symbolics only) a Command Processor applet
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2018-05-31T17:10:26Z edgar-rft: AFAK in the old times "scripting" had something to do with a chisel and stone
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2018-05-31T17:10:56Z aeth: I think a lot of people think that there are two kinds of languages, "systems languages" and "scripting languages", and that there is a clear line between the languages, even though these terms describe roles not languages. For instance, CL can do both. And this division makes it unclear where to place languages like Java and C#. And, of course, Wikipedia lists 5 different kinds of "scripting". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_langua
2018-05-31T17:11:59Z makomo: the hardest thing in CS is naming things, that is for sure
2018-05-31T17:12:00Z dlowe: It's not a very good distinction.
2018-05-31T17:12:18Z makomo: people abuse terminology *ALL* the time, and it sucks
2018-05-31T17:12:38Z makomo: the term "interpreter" has been overloaded over a billion times
2018-05-31T17:13:46Z makomo: imo it has the same status as the term "scripting language"
2018-05-31T17:14:01Z makomo: i.e. "scripting languages use interpreters, system languages use compilers"
2018-05-31T17:14:04Z makomo: along those lines
2018-05-31T17:14:14Z makomo: systems*
2018-05-31T17:14:17Z aeth: Imo, the only reason some general purpose languages are called "scripting languages" is because their current implementations are too slow. You can obviously use any general purpose language for anything, but performance requirements might restrict your choices.
2018-05-31T17:14:43Z aeth: makomo: And, yes, I was as vague as possible but the more you add to it (and it's often things like you said), the less accurate it is.
2018-05-31T17:14:56Z aeth: The worst part is that a lot of intro textbooks have stuff like that.
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2018-05-31T17:15:12Z makomo: yup, endless confusion :^(
2018-05-31T17:15:28Z aeth: Or they'll talk about the interpreted vs. compiled benefits and drawbacks and literally all of the benefits of "interpreted" would also apply to SBCL, which is AOT compiled.
2018-05-31T17:15:35Z aeth: In fact, SBCL does it better.
2018-05-31T17:15:49Z aeth: So if those sources are authoritative, then SBCL obsoletes all interpreters.
2018-05-31T17:15:54Z dlowe: The main benefit of "intrepreted" is that it's easy to code
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2018-05-31T17:16:01Z TMA: there are several layers of meaning to 'scripting language'. without a proper clarification the term is almost but not quite useless
2018-05-31T17:16:04Z dlowe: and I'm pretty sure sbcl doesn't fall under that category
2018-05-31T17:16:15Z aeth: dlowe: Okay, you're right about that. And another one that doesn't apply to SBCL is "sandboxing".
2018-05-31T17:16:28Z aeth: dlowe: But if it's a list of 20 only those 2 won't apply to SBCL and thus are actually inherent of interpreters.
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2018-05-31T17:16:50Z dlowe: Lack of sandboxing is more a limit of the CL design.
2018-05-31T17:16:55Z aeth: (And if you want sandboxed interpreters, you're stuck with Lua or JS)
2018-05-31T17:17:15Z dlowe: It could be done.
2018-05-31T17:17:29Z aeth: cl-cl is the language of the future.
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2018-05-31T17:18:37Z akkad: as a system it's fantastic, as a lisp, meh
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2018-05-31T17:28:48Z shka_: beach has wonderful idea regarding first class environments
2018-05-31T17:29:23Z dlowe: first class environments + capabilities would be lovely
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2018-05-31T17:30:18Z shka_: yes, after beach explained it to me it starts to look like something truly awesome
2018-05-31T17:30:49Z shka_: not sure if it will be only in sicl or also in clasp though
2018-05-31T17:33:23Z Bike: eventually, hopefully.
2018-05-31T17:33:40Z Bike: but it has a few holes as far as sandboxing goes. that's not what beach came up with them for.
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2018-05-31T17:35:42Z jmercouris: makomo: surely you recognize teh difference between an interpreter and a compiler right?
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2018-05-31T17:36:02Z jmercouris: a compiler produces machine code! an interpreter does not!
2018-05-31T17:36:12Z dlowe: these days even machine code is interpreted
2018-05-31T17:36:18Z makomo: well i'd like to think so, but "interpreter" is a VERY fuzzy term
2018-05-31T17:36:23Z jmercouris: yeah, on a processor level
2018-05-31T17:36:34Z dlowe: VMs too
2018-05-31T17:36:39Z jmercouris: okay fine, on a VM level
2018-05-31T17:37:02Z scymtym: Fare: speaking of cl-launch (hours ago, admittedly), could you clarify the license? (see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/xcvb/cl-launch/issues/6 )
2018-05-31T17:37:07Z dlowe: compiler is just a transformation between one code to another code.
2018-05-31T17:37:12Z dlowe: *compilation
2018-05-31T17:37:19Z makomo: part of the problem imo is treating "machine code" as a special kind of code
2018-05-31T17:37:20Z scymtym: Fare: and thank you for cl-launch. it is really handy
2018-05-31T17:37:31Z makomo: i.e. people make a difference between a "compiler" and a """transpiler"""
2018-05-31T17:37:39Z shka_: Bike: well, being able to actually use SICL as your lisp implementation would be cool
2018-05-31T17:37:47Z shka_: for start
2018-05-31T17:37:47Z pjb: dlowe: it's not because it's an interpreter that: 1- the language is easy to understand and program with, 2- the system provides you with a REPL and a good interactive debugger.
2018-05-31T17:37:58Z makomo: because somehow for them, a compiler between two languages, of which neither is machine code, is not a real compiler
2018-05-31T17:38:01Z aeth: makomo: "transpiler" is shorter than "source-to-source compiler" and everyone still knows what you mean
2018-05-31T17:38:06Z jmercouris: there could as well have existed an interpreter for C code...
2018-05-31T17:38:12Z dlowe: there is such a thing
2018-05-31T17:38:14Z Bike: shka_: yes
2018-05-31T17:38:19Z jmercouris: right, those REPLs right?
2018-05-31T17:38:19Z makomo: aeth: but it's not a real thing, formally it's just a compiler
2018-05-31T17:38:38Z aeth: A duck's a bird. A transpiler's a compiler.
2018-05-31T17:38:40Z makomo: what makes machine code not source code? absolutely nothing
2018-05-31T17:38:41Z dlowe: but an interpreter is also a very definite thing too
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2018-05-31T17:39:10Z nirved: makomo: you make it
2018-05-31T17:39:21Z aeth: makomo: You target machine code in a different way than you target source code.
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2018-05-31T17:39:31Z jmercouris: I think the distinction here is that a transpiler is not intended to produce machine code
2018-05-31T17:39:45Z pjb: makomo: Once you have an implementation of a language, (be it a compiler or an interpreter or anything else), you have a machine for that language, so programs written in that language are machine code (for that "virtual" machine).
2018-05-31T17:39:47Z makomo: jmercouris: well exactly, and from that lots of other terminology ensues
2018-05-31T17:39:52Z jmercouris: whereas a compiler is usually intended, or at least connotated with producing machine code
2018-05-31T17:40:07Z makomo: jmercouris: yes, exactly, it has the implication of producing "machine code"
2018-05-31T17:40:16Z makomo: i.e. code for a processor, a hardware device
2018-05-31T17:40:19Z pjb: Just have a look at cuda!
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2018-05-31T17:40:27Z jmercouris: well, we have to use abstractions as programmers
2018-05-31T17:40:36Z jmercouris: we should pretend that anything below the hardware level does not exist :D
2018-05-31T17:40:42Z jmercouris: at least for our sanity...
2018-05-31T17:40:51Z makomo: true, but that's how the terminology becomes fuzzy, because people use "compiler" and "interpreter" to mean a lot of things
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2018-05-31T17:41:03Z pjb: the abstraction is the T forms for compilers, the V forms for machines and the I form for interpreters.
2018-05-31T17:41:51Z edgar-rft interpretes everything much different than all of you
2018-05-31T17:41:53Z makomo: but formally, the processor is an interpreter for machine code, although it's implemented in hardware
2018-05-31T17:42:12Z pjb: and sometimes in "firmware".
2018-05-31T17:42:23Z aeth: makomo: Because over time interpreters look more like compilers and compilers look more like interpreters. Just like any other division in languages. Although some divisions are going away faster, like static vs. dynamic typing.
2018-05-31T17:42:25Z makomo: i guess you're referring to stuff such as microcode by that?
2018-05-31T17:42:37Z nirved: it's very simple - compiler compiles, interpreter interprets
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2018-05-31T17:42:58Z nirved: compiler outputs transformed code
2018-05-31T17:43:07Z nirved: interpreter executes code
2018-05-31T17:43:12Z makomo: the difference between the two is fine, but the meaning of "interpreter" itself is fuzzy
2018-05-31T17:43:21Z jmercouris: nirved: Damn! why didn't we think of it!
2018-05-31T17:43:27Z jmercouris: Luckily we have you to tell us about how simple it is!
2018-05-31T17:43:29Z makomo: people call main python program an interpreter, even though it does the exact same thing as java
2018-05-31T17:43:32Z makomo: it has a bytecode compiler
2018-05-31T17:43:37Z makomo: the main*
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2018-05-31T17:43:48Z makomo: and then an interpreter which interprets the bytecode
2018-05-31T17:43:49Z shka_: you guys have way to much time :-)
2018-05-31T17:43:55Z makomo: they call the whole package "an interpreter"
2018-05-31T17:44:02Z jmercouris: makomo: could just be legacy
2018-05-31T17:44:08Z makomo: whatever it is, it's annoying
2018-05-31T17:44:09Z nirved: after compiling to bytecode, it is interpreted
2018-05-31T17:44:13Z makomo: same thing goes with the term "JIT"
2018-05-31T17:44:14Z jmercouris: at any rate, I'd prefer to call the JVM an interpreter
2018-05-31T17:44:28Z nirved: bytecode is not executed
2018-05-31T17:44:28Z jmercouris: rather than calling the python interpreter a PVM
2018-05-31T17:44:32Z makomo: jmercouris: JIT would like to have a word with you :-)
2018-05-31T17:44:55Z jmercouris: Well, since we are making up definitions willy nilly, anything is possible :P
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2018-05-31T17:45:34Z makomo: i also think of it as an interpreter, because it reads the java bytecode and "executes" it
2018-05-31T17:45:41Z aeth: jmercouris: There is only one meaningful distinction in programming language design. "blub" and "Lisp"
2018-05-31T17:46:15Z makomo: i always wondered about the Blub thing, how do we know, as lispers, that lisp isn't just another blub that we can't see past :D
2018-05-31T17:46:25Z aeth: Defining Lisp is actually a pretty hard thing.
2018-05-31T17:46:26Z jmercouris: aeth: Ah yes, blubcode
2018-05-31T17:46:35Z dlowe: makomo: I think that was one of the points of the essay
2018-05-31T17:46:40Z nirved: any blub is subset of lisp
2018-05-31T17:46:55Z makomo: dlowe: i never read that out of it
2018-05-31T17:46:57Z dlowe: any actual implementation is blub compared to the platonic lisp ideal
2018-05-31T17:46:58Z aeth: dlowe: Obviously the point was that Common Lisp is yet another blub and Arc is the way forward.
2018-05-31T17:47:06Z aeth: We'll still be using Arc in 100 years.
2018-05-31T17:47:07Z nirved: since lisp is indefinitely extensible, anything else than lisp is blub
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2018-05-31T17:47:08Z makomo: dlowe: actual implementation of lisp?
2018-05-31T17:47:09Z dlowe: aeth: I believe that was one of the points
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2018-05-31T17:47:22Z jmercouris: I believe we should be programming in assembly, it places no limits on the programmer
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2018-05-31T17:47:32Z jmercouris: Alright, I'm done :D
2018-05-31T17:47:39Z aeth: jmercouris: (1) express assembly in s-expression form, (2) enjoy your real macros
2018-05-31T17:47:43Z makomo: lol
2018-05-31T17:47:47Z aeth: You can probably build the rest as needed
2018-05-31T17:47:57Z jmercouris: aeth: I mean, I don't see why not
2018-05-31T17:48:06Z dlowe: I had that idea and it turns out that assemblers are actually annoyingly large and complicated.
2018-05-31T17:48:08Z makomo: well, it's interesting to note that machine code is homoiconic as well
2018-05-31T17:48:16Z jmercouris: I guess we could right our own assembly language
2018-05-31T17:48:16Z aeth: Imagine a language that was literally just Lisp macros on asm.
2018-05-31T17:48:23Z jmercouris: s/right/write
2018-05-31T17:48:25Z jmercouris: man I am tired
2018-05-31T17:48:27Z dlowe: aeth: ^
2018-05-31T17:48:33Z aeth: dlowe: Then get some sleep
2018-05-31T17:48:47Z jmercouris: yeah dlowe, get some sleep :P
2018-05-31T17:48:53Z dlowe: har har
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2018-05-31T17:52:03Z Xach: aeth: RPW used to go on and on about BLISS-II
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2018-05-31T17:54:10Z aeth: I think the biggest confusion in language categorization is probably dynamic vs. static typing. e.g. CL is not dynamically typed. Some implementations might be. SBCL is gradually typed, but afaik most of the error-catching benefits of static types stay within one file.
2018-05-31T17:56:02Z shka_: uhm
2018-05-31T17:56:20Z shka_: aeth: you have access to the type information in the runtime = dynamic typing
2018-05-31T17:57:16Z makomo: aeth: how is CL not dynamically typed though?
2018-05-31T17:57:25Z pjb: You cannot really say lisp is dynamically typed, opposing that with static typing, because this is not the most meaningful distinction of the lisp type system.
2018-05-31T17:57:28Z aeth: makomo: Gradual typing is combining static and dynamic typing. SBCL does this.
2018-05-31T17:57:51Z pjb: What lisp does, is to assign types to values, instead of assigning it to variables like it's done in "statically" typed languages.
2018-05-31T17:57:52Z aeth: I suppose you could say that it's *both*, though.
2018-05-31T17:57:53Z shka_: this is incorrect
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2018-05-31T17:59:28Z Bike: the type system does a bunch of different things that don't always cohere together. values being typed instead of variables is a pretty good start though.
2018-05-31T17:59:30Z aeth: In SBCL if you use type declarations, it does static type checking within one file or compilation unit. It then also does dynamic, runtime type checking on those type declarations unless (safety 0)
2018-05-31T17:59:49Z pjb: When you have values lost in memory, in lisp, they still have their type.  The garbage collector can find them, and call their finaliser function.  But in usual C implementations, if there's no variable to refer to the value, then the value is just bits, without a type, and nothing can be done with them.
2018-05-31T18:00:53Z aeth: At the very least, if you view it as dynamic xor static typing, SBCL does blur the lines, and other languages are finally catching up there, too
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2018-05-31T18:03:01Z pjb: I would just say that there are compilation-time analysis, local or global analysis, and there are run-time ("JIT") statistics and checks, and that you can use both to optimize the processing.
2018-05-31T18:03:32Z shka_: 1+ pjb
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2018-05-31T18:19:52Z aeth: Lisp has a different view of compilation time than most compilers. (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (uiop:launch-program "ksudoku"))
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2018-05-31T18:31:01Z edgar-rft charges his Lisp to make some static types
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2018-05-31T18:38:50Z pjb: Write a lisp program using midi to generate this static: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgll-XTqcS4
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2018-05-31T18:50:37Z edgar-rft: pjb: I played music with *much* bigger sparks when I created earth...
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2018-05-31T18:57:46Z whartung: wait … you write lisp with midi? Keying in lambdas and defun from a DX-7?
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2018-05-31T19:08:25Z edgar-rft: whartung, there indeed are/were several programs for midi recording by turning midi-events plus their timestamps into Lisp code
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2018-05-31T19:58:33Z Spaceman7: Hello
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2018-05-31T19:59:59Z pjb: Hiyowwww… gone.
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2018-05-31T20:50:37Z mgsk: Were the ELS talks filmed this year / slash will they be available eventually?
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2018-05-31T20:54:50Z Xof: yes
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2018-05-31T20:55:24Z mgsk: Xof: lovely. Any idea on ETA?
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2018-05-31T20:59:55Z p_l: makomo: the problem with dynamic/static is that people mistake it for weak/strong :)
2018-05-31T21:00:17Z makomo: p_l: true, but that's an even fuzzier term :-)
2018-05-31T21:01:25Z p_l: CL is dynamic/strongly typed language. The former because of runtime type checks (with gradual static support as optimizations in compilers), the latter because it has a very strong notion of what a type is etc. (a bit too strong, in a sense, with satisfies)
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2018-05-31T21:18:48Z Xof: mgsk: none at all.  (I was only a speaker, not the poor victim who has to edit the videos)
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2018-05-31T21:20:02Z aeth: p_l: Calling CL dynamic is misleading when some compilers, perfectly permitted by the standard, do both static and dynamic, making "gradual typing" a more accurate descriptor.
2018-05-31T21:22:32Z White_Flame: "gradual" never seems right to me.  Each instance is a boolean, either assuming or checking the type
2018-05-31T21:22:33Z aeth: Calling it "dynamic" implies that you can't (defun foo (x) (declare (single-float x)) ...) although, yes, that isn't entirely portable behavior because in theory some non-existent (afaik) implementation could assume types instead of either statically typing (SBCL) or ignoring the declaration (most implementations).
2018-05-31T21:23:10Z aeth: SBCL at safety 0 is a bit tricky. It assumes the types at runtime, but probably still does its limited static type checking at compile time.
2018-05-31T21:24:08Z White_Flame: why would safety 0 decrease the amount of type inference applied?
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2018-05-31T21:24:52Z aeth: I said probably because I'm not going to write a test case right now, but I'd be surprised if it removed the limited static type checking.
2018-05-31T21:25:16Z White_Flame: ah, miserad
2018-05-31T21:25:20Z White_Flame: *misread
2018-05-31T21:27:35Z aeth: White_Flame: "gradual typing" implies that you're going to start out dynamic and then gradually add static typing as your program advances. I think "mixed typing" would probably be a better name, but since dynamic/static is often confused with strong/weak, I'm sure "mixed typing" could confuse people into thinking that the language is both strongly typed in places and weakly typed in places or something.
2018-05-31T21:27:52Z White_Flame: "optional" is probably what I'd use
2018-05-31T21:28:21Z White_Flame: but again, the doesn't distinguish itself as being part of the strong/weak or static/dynamic spectrum
2018-05-31T21:28:27Z p_l: aeth: dynamic is perfectly fine with (defun foo (x) (declare (single-float x)) ...) - it just means that type check will be done at runtime
2018-05-31T21:28:33Z copec: Are there any good type abusing examples?
2018-05-31T21:28:40Z aeth: One problem with CL, though, is that :type in CLOS isn't really respected. Only CCL seems to respect it by default, although SBCL respects it with high debug values, implying that it's only useful for debugging.
2018-05-31T21:28:43Z copec: with the weak corners
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2018-05-31T21:29:28Z aeth: Another problem with static-typing-in-CL is that there aren't typed lists (trivial to write your own with structs if you can accept a performance loss) or hash tables, and non-T arrays are very limited in what types that they can have.
2018-05-31T21:30:12Z p_l: that's so long as you keep to portable standard, yes (though lists I believe are untyped in all implementations)
2018-05-31T21:31:04Z aeth: p_l: You're incorrect about type declarations. SBCL will do the type check at compile time as well, as long as it's within the same compilation-unit. SBCL actually has typed functions, with typed parameters and a typed return value (although the latter is rarely seen).
2018-05-31T21:31:43Z aeth: It's limited, though, because the function can be recompiled at any moment to have a completely different function type so SBCL will only trust it in limited cases, most commonly when it's in the same file.
2018-05-31T21:31:56Z p_l: aeth: I'm trying to stick to what the standard says, and even on SBCL you can end up with uncompiled code trying to call the functions so unless you do (safety 0) the type check will happen
2018-05-31T21:32:16Z copec: arbitrary find from type converstation:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njfyWgqZmkI
2018-05-31T21:32:45Z aeth: p_l: Yes, in SBCL it's both statically and dynamically typed when you use type declarations, unless it's safety 0. Although I would assume most gradually typed languages that come at the problem from the dynamically-typed side would behave similarly.
2018-05-31T21:33:00Z White_Flame: I'm always amused when SBCL compiles an expression it warns about to a simple call to raise an error
2018-05-31T21:33:18Z pjb: aeth: non typed lists is a good thing, trust me!
2018-05-31T21:33:37Z pjb: You'd have to see what they do in C!
2018-05-31T21:33:39Z copec: eww, typed lists
2018-05-31T21:33:52Z p_l: aeth: that's what I'm getting at. By default we get dynamic, but compilers are free to go further where possible. Meanwhile with many "statically" typed you need to write your own type checks and variant code
2018-05-31T21:34:24Z aeth: pjb: Typed collections are wonderful. You type-check on setting or initialization and you can trust the type on access, providing more information to the compiler's type inference, without having to have a fancy macro inserting THEs all over the place (which SBCL won't even trust, so you'd need truly-the for SBCL)
2018-05-31T21:34:36Z aeth: pjb: For things set rarely and accessed often, that's a major win.
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2018-05-31T21:35:25Z White_Flame: there's always Haskell, if you want to program in types as your primary feature
2018-05-31T21:35:27Z aeth: And you couldn't even trust a the/truly-the macro because the user somewhere else could just bypass it.
2018-05-31T21:36:10Z pjb: aeth: it's ludicruous: all the reference types, and most integer types are compiled into the same binary!
2018-05-31T21:36:43Z pjb: aeth: in anycase, you can always use libecl, or greenspun like crazy, of course.  But this is not what C programmers do.
2018-05-31T21:36:54Z copec: imo going into experimental programming thinking about type is like going in thinking about optimization before you've even flushed out your idea
2018-05-31T21:37:14Z pjb: C programmers are just crazy.
2018-05-31T21:38:06Z aeth: White_Flame: I'm not sure why you'd recommend Haskell when I said "set rarely and accessed often". I think Haskell wouldn't be the ideal language for setting (i.e. mutation) because it's discouraged.
2018-05-31T21:38:33Z White_Flame: no, but it's focused on programming in types first, then adding a bit of implementation glue
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2018-05-31T21:38:46Z copec: ^^
2018-05-31T21:38:57Z White_Flame: so it might be a good example to glean ideas form
2018-05-31T21:38:59Z White_Flame: *from
2018-05-31T21:39:00Z copec: "I don't know how the hell I'm going to do something, but heres the type?"
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2018-05-31T21:40:05Z White_Flame: also, very few people here are as obsessed with C-style micro-optimizations
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2018-05-31T21:40:31Z White_Flame: in terms of avoiding typechecks and compiling down to exactly 1 working case
2018-05-31T21:40:34Z copec: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVNHcob3oJg <-- copec is Chester
2018-05-31T21:40:40Z p_l: excuse me, we are very obsessed with optimizations, we just do it without creating crazy UB in compiler
2018-05-31T21:41:21Z aeth: p_l: You could write an entirely statically typed program in CL. Sure, the staticness wouldn't be portable, but you could probably write a portable static checker like people do for various languages that don't even have an implementation like SBCL. The define syntax would be inconvenient, but a wrapper macro on top of defun is so trivial I've probably done at least a dozen such define-foos in one program.
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2018-05-31T21:41:44Z p_l: aeth: yep
2018-05-31T21:41:56Z aeth: You don't need something like TypeScript in CL.
2018-05-31T21:41:59Z Fare: scymtym: thanks for noticing. Why didn't gitlab.common-lisp.net warn me that the issue was open???
2018-05-31T21:42:14Z p_l: aeth: I'm actually tempted to branch out further from "keep to very simple CL" and do a lot of macrology this time, because I'm trying to write a performant Lisp Machine emulator :)
2018-05-31T21:42:17Z White_Flame: what would happen when you need to redefine something?
2018-05-31T21:42:29Z aeth: p_l: And assuming type T when no type is specified is actually the reasonable default. Why do otherwise?
2018-05-31T21:42:39Z aeth: Even statically typed languages should behave like that!
2018-05-31T21:43:02Z p_l: White_Flame: it's something I'm actually tackling recently, where I have a function that recompiles a bunch of very statically controlled stuff when I need to
2018-05-31T21:43:27Z p_l: (in my case, it involves a lot of macros iterating over objects and constructing a function from them)
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2018-05-31T21:44:56Z White_Flame: p_l: yeah, CL needs to move into the JIT world if further gains on speed are going to be introduced
2018-05-31T21:45:10Z p_l: White_Flame: ... umm... nope?
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2018-05-31T21:45:28Z p_l: the biggest JIT tricks are included in code generated by compilers
2018-05-31T21:45:32Z White_Flame: well, that's what you're talking about, isn't it?  recompiling things if the assumptions change?
2018-05-31T21:46:30Z White_Flame: but yeah, the literal acronym "JIT" isn't sufficient to describe such optimizations.  I guess "dynamic recompilation" would be a better fit
2018-05-31T21:46:32Z p_l: White_Flame: I'm essentially making macros that build functions that are then processed by macros to build an uber-function that implements the dispatch unit of a Symbolics Ivory chip
2018-05-31T21:46:49Z White_Flame: (even though that term is already taken up by emulators)
2018-05-31T21:47:04Z p_l: the function to rebuild this is going to be called manually, when I change something like adding new instruction or modifying the macros that help me build the instruction-functions
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2018-05-31T21:47:31Z scymtym: Fare: thank you
2018-05-31T21:47:35Z p_l: that... won't be helped by "JIT" stuff
2018-05-31T21:47:39Z aeth: White_Flame: You only need JIT if you can't directly specify what you mean. That's probably why LuaJIT is such a performance win over Lua. When everything is a table, you need JIT magic to magic things into more appropriate representations.
2018-05-31T21:47:48Z White_Flame: p_l: right, you're manually triggering rebuilds
2018-05-31T21:47:51Z aeth: It's often quite easy to say what you mean in CL.
2018-05-31T21:48:12Z aeth: I'm not sure a JIT could beat SBCL in performance because of all of the engineering effort put into SBCL
2018-05-31T21:48:14Z White_Flame: aeth: specifications are burdensome, and heuristics can find specs that you might not be able to
2018-05-31T21:48:27Z p_l: most CL implementations already include the kind of dynamic programming that JIT optimizers do, btw
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2018-05-31T21:48:34Z White_Flame: (burdensome to the programmer)
2018-05-31T21:48:51Z aeth: White_Flame: But once you know what you're doing, you can make a macro out of it and get rid of almost all of the boilerplate.
2018-05-31T21:49:00Z White_Flame: p_l: the biggest one I would find advantage from would be dynamic inlining
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2018-05-31T21:50:14Z copec: I would like to do some investigation into CL performance as it relates to the graph on https://julialang.org/ starting from here: https://github.com/JuliaLang/Microbenchmarks/
2018-05-31T21:50:40Z p_l: White_Flame: inlining is partially what I'm going for with my crazy macros
2018-05-31T21:50:47Z p_l: but I want actual control over what's happening
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2018-05-31T21:51:01Z White_Flame: yeah, that's what I'm breaking away from
2018-05-31T21:51:11Z White_Flame: "hand-holding the CPU through what it needs to do" has become my bane
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2018-05-31T21:52:16Z p_l: in my case I strongly suspect I might hit timing bugs
2018-05-31T21:52:17Z aeth: White_Flame: Imo what CL's best at is this: Specify exactly what to do, in a macro, and give a high-level declarative interface. Most languages that give you the opportunity to do the latter don't give you enough control over the former.
2018-05-31T21:52:47Z Fare: scymtym, thank YOU
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2018-05-31T21:53:21Z White_Flame: I want to teach it how to get things done, and how to figure out how to gain performance on its own.  I've spent decades doing all that by hand, and it's a repetitive waste of time
2018-05-31T21:53:37Z White_Flame: sure, it's a fun puzzle in the beginning
2018-05-31T21:53:47Z White_Flame: but srsly, gotta actually get things done at some point
2018-05-31T21:53:52Z Fare: I see there are 5 more issues open against cl-launch :-(
2018-05-31T21:54:06Z Fare: That I didn't know about because of faulty email relay
2018-05-31T21:54:41Z aeth: White_Flame: That's what frameworks are for imo.
2018-05-31T21:54:43Z White_Flame: especially for large, complex projects, hand-tuning everything gets superlinearly burdensome
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2018-05-31T21:54:59Z Fare: If you have an account on gitlab.common-lisp.net, you may want to check your email setting
2018-05-31T21:55:21Z White_Flame: and that includes creating simple macros and such to help manually declare the hand-tuning
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2018-05-31T21:56:19Z White_Flame: we're supposed to be meta-programmers, just programmers!
2018-05-31T21:56:25Z White_Flame: *not just programmers!
2018-05-31T21:56:49Z aeth: White_Flame: I find it more convenient to use a define-function macro as a target for my macros, rather than directly using defun. It'll handle things like (declaim (inline foo)), type declarations, etc., and since I directly control it I can add whatever else I need.
2018-05-31T21:57:44Z aeth: I originally intended only for the highest level to use fancy macros that hide most things, but it seems to work well at most middle levels, too.
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2018-05-31T21:58:54Z White_Flame: "since I directly control it", ie, you put yourself & manual effort in the critical path ;)
2018-05-31T21:59:05Z aeth: I've been aggressively reducing reptition. e.g. I wrote a with-accessors* that is just like with-accessors except (foo bar (quux baz)) becomes ((foo foo) (bar bar) (quux baz)) because it's very common for me to just name the symbol macro created by with-accessors after the accessor.
2018-05-31T21:59:15Z White_Flame: anyway, that's my personal soapbox to yell from
2018-05-31T21:59:19Z aeth: And, sure, I directly control most of these convenience macros, but most of them are trivial.
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2018-05-31T21:59:30Z aeth: I compose quite a few trivial macros to do more elaborate things and simplify the more advanced macros.
2018-05-31T22:00:27Z aeth: Using define-function and with-accessors* gets rid of a lot of repetition in the macros. Combine the two in one macro and now I no longer have to handle type declarations directly in that macro and I don't have to have the (lambda (x) `(,x ,x)) all over my code that with-accessors (and similar interfaces) would produce
2018-05-31T22:00:39Z White_Flame: it's not about reducing repetition
2018-05-31T22:00:57Z White_Flame: it's about offloading actual autonomous programming & optimization work to the environment
2018-05-31T22:01:13Z White_Flame: ie, the machine itself makes decisions without you telling it to
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2018-05-31T22:01:40Z White_Flame: obviously, compiler work really pushes those fields
2018-05-31T22:01:41Z aeth: That's the thing, though. This work only has to be done once, then it's a framework for someone else to use.
2018-05-31T22:01:54Z White_Flame: I'm not talking about frameworks
2018-05-31T22:02:00Z aeth: The CL community is small. That's the only reason why "doing it once" is often you doing it, and not finding a framework
2018-05-31T22:02:27Z aeth: Very few things have to be done at the implementation level.
2018-05-31T22:02:28Z White_Flame: but again, as I said, this is my soapbox.  People who are working on different problems don't necessarily see the need for other people's desired solutions
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2018-05-31T22:04:45Z aeth: White_Flame: I guess my point is that you don't have to worry about performance in CL if someone else has done that worry for you in the domain you're in. It's just that the small community means that that is unlikely.
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2018-05-31T22:07:19Z p_l: White_Flame: you might want to search for information about "Programmer's Apprentice", I believe that was the name
2018-05-31T22:07:27Z White_Flame: the domain is highly dynamic, changing assumptions that should be reflected in compiled code
2018-05-31T22:07:29Z p_l: it was interesting approach to augmenting programmer
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2018-05-31T22:08:32Z p_l: White_Flame: also, look for Marko Heisig (iirc) presentation at ELS2015 (I think it was 2015) where he describes dynamic programming (i.e. auto-adapting) on a supercomputer :)
2018-05-31T22:08:44Z White_Flame: as such, the entire body of work for statically arriving at an optimal static compilation is a red herring
2018-05-31T22:08:57Z White_Flame: at least, in terms of practical envrionmental effect
2018-05-31T22:09:17Z White_Flame: p_l: that certainly sounds interesting :)
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2018-05-31T22:10:53Z rpg: Oddball question: if I have a structure of class node, and there's an extension of node, counter-node, that adds a slot, is there some way to copy a node instance to a fresh counter-node instance?  I was trying to copy-node my node instance, and then change-class the fresh node into a counter-node, but change-class doesn't work on structure-class objects...
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2018-05-31T22:11:39Z rpg: possibly the right thing is to simply replace my structure class with an object class, but that's at least a mild pain.
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2018-05-31T22:54:01Z zazzerino: Is `eq` the correct equality function to compare keywords? (It works on sbcl, but I'm wondering if this is portable...)
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2018-05-31T23:00:07Z aeth: From looking at the spec: eq, eql, equal, and equalp should be identical for symbols (including keywords) and there is no symbol= in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_symbol.htm
2018-05-31T23:00:49Z aeth: eq will be slightly faster if the type is unknown because eql will use = on numbers and char= on characters, but I think most people would use eql in their style
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2018-05-31T23:01:21Z zazzerino: aeth: thank you
2018-05-31T23:01:47Z aeth: the spec will describe how they all differ, e.g. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eql.htm
2018-05-31T23:02:43Z aeth: oh, actually eql doesn't use =, I misread it
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2018-05-31T23:03:03Z aeth: It uses = on the same type of number
2018-05-31T23:04:10Z pierpa: EQL means equivalent. The two objects must act identically on every possible operation, with the only possible exception of EQ.
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2018-05-31T23:06:03Z aeth: I wonder if (eql -0f0 0f0) => nil is correct because "If x and y are both numbers of the same type and the same value" seemed to give me the impression that (eql -0f0 0f0) => t
2018-05-31T23:06:34Z aeth: oops, it clarifies in the spec
2018-05-31T23:06:42Z aeth: I was looking at the examples, not in the text.
2018-05-31T23:07:33Z aeth: Confusingly worded then if they had to add that clarification.
2018-05-31T23:07:37Z White_Flame: zazzerino: symbols are usually interned.  So :foo and :foo will always be the exact same object in memory, so you can use the most specific comparator
2018-05-31T23:07:48Z White_Flame: (if you want a non-interned symbol, you have to do extra things)
2018-05-31T23:08:02Z zazzerino: White_Flame: most specific being `eq`, right?
2018-05-31T23:08:11Z White_Flame: yes
2018-05-31T23:08:17Z zazzerino: Cool, thank you all
2018-05-31T23:08:20Z edgar-rft: aeth: In a spec it's sufficient to look at the pictures, you don't need to read the text.
2018-05-31T23:08:25Z White_Flame: at a practical leve, you can consider eq to be a CPU register equality comparison
2018-05-31T23:08:39Z aeth: edgar-rft: well, you'd think that they'd put the edge cases in the examples in addition to the text
2018-05-31T23:08:47Z White_Flame: eql will also compare larger numbers and characters, which might be boxed (ie, larger than 1 machine register, living on the heap somewher)
2018-05-31T23:08:50Z aeth: Someone needs to make a version of the spec with better examples
2018-05-31T23:09:10Z White_Flame: then equal and equalp traverse through larger composites
2018-05-31T23:09:54Z White_Flame: and there are more type specialized comparisons, like = for numbers specifically, string=, etc
2018-05-31T23:09:55Z aeth: equalp uses = for numbers, equal uses eql for numbers. eql, I guess, can be thought of as using = on numbers of the same type except for the -0 vs +0 issue on floats if the float representation has them as distinct values.
2018-05-31T23:12:16Z aeth: I guess there's no concise way of explaining eql's behavior there, especially because of bignums and boxed floating point representations.
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2018-05-31T23:14:41Z White_Flame: I really dislike that equalp ignores string case
2018-05-31T23:14:49Z White_Flame: I wonder what the original idea behind that was
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2018-05-31T23:18:08Z aeth: White_Flame: time for an equal? that ignores string case including unicode string case
2018-05-31T23:18:21Z White_Flame: but it doesn't traverse structures
2018-05-31T23:18:30Z aeth: of course not
2018-05-31T23:19:04Z White_Flame: so if you want to value-compare composite data structures, you either do it case-insensitively, or write your own descender (or override EQUALP to a custom function)
2018-05-31T23:19:20Z White_Flame: it seems awfully odd to default that way
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2018-05-31T23:22:30Z pillton: White_Flame: It is possible that equalp was defined in accordance to principles of the "Common" in Common Lisp.
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2018-05-31T23:24:21Z aeth: On the one hand you get an ugly, inelegant language that is compatible with things no one uses anymore. On the other hand, attempts to start a Lisp from scratch miss very obvious features that large applications need.
2018-05-31T23:24:43Z White_Flame: pillton: certainly, I"m curious what that history is, for that particular issue
2018-05-31T23:24:57Z aeth: White_Flame: check old manuals
2018-05-31T23:25:13Z aeth: old manuals are basically the hyperspec in PDF form for historic Lisps
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2018-05-31T23:25:39Z White_Flame: I've gone through pretty much all the genera manuals, but I think that was probably too recent
2018-05-31T23:25:57Z aeth: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
2018-05-31T23:26:09Z aeth: probably not the only place
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2018-05-31T23:27:41Z aeth: to save you a bit of time, the 1979 one only has eq and equal in its index
2018-05-31T23:29:26Z aeth: Its equal uses = on numbers!
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2018-05-31T23:31:47Z White_Flame: aeth: probably because it doesn't have eql ;)
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2018-05-31T23:32:45Z aeth: "Note: Every time you use EQUAL on a number, you will get a warning that the function EQL is undefined. Don't worry. This will be fixed later."
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2018-05-31T23:40:48Z rme: Xach: FYI, I finally found and committed a fix for the call-next-method problem that you ran into in the 1.12-dev branch of ccl.
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