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2018-05-01T01:30:49Z ealfonso: the hunchentoot problem I was having earlier was not a hunchentoot problem. I forgot to use (return ...) in a loop finally clause
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2018-05-01T01:36:50Z pierpa: ah, yes, that one happens to me too
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2018-05-01T01:40:30Z Xach: hee
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2018-05-01T01:50:46Z pfdietz: I wonder if the compiler should warn on that.
2018-05-01T01:52:25Z Bike: probably... kind of nontrivial to determine that something has no side effects though.
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2018-05-01T02:05:25Z pfdietz: In the general case, yes.  In special cases, no.
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2018-05-01T02:34:36Z ealfonso: is there a package naming convention for cffi wrapper libraries?
2018-05-01T02:42:59Z k-hos: prefixing the c libraries name with cl- is pretty common
2018-05-01T02:43:43Z ealfonso: k-hos thanks
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2018-05-01T02:49:23Z aeth: k-hos: That works until there's more than two
2018-05-01T02:49:55Z aeth: first cl-foo, then cl-foo42 because cl-foo is stuck on version 35 and then if you need a different foo 42.x binding you're in trouble
2018-05-01T02:50:18Z aeth: so probably check for name conflicts on quicklisp and github first
2018-05-01T02:50:36Z k-hos: I didn't say don't do your research
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2018-05-01T03:18:04Z pfdietz: Package local nicknames.  Please please please.
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2018-05-01T03:19:59Z ealfonso: pfdietz Package local nicknames?
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2018-05-01T05:54:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-01T05:54:37Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-01T05:55:34Z blep-on-external: afternoon beach!
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2018-05-01T05:59:45Z makomo: morning!
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2018-05-01T07:04:44Z phoe: Morning
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2018-05-01T08:16:47Z ealfonso: what is the difference between (SYMBOL-VALUE (FIND-SYMBOL (SYMBOL-NAME 'MY-SYM))) and MY-SYM?
2018-05-01T08:17:39Z phoe: ealfonso: the first seems to be horribly wrong for some reason
2018-05-01T08:18:11Z phoe: MY-SYM evaluates to the value of the variable named by the symbol MY-SYM
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2018-05-01T08:18:34Z phoe: (SYMBOL-NAME 'MY-SYM) ;=> "MY-SYM"
2018-05-01T08:18:41Z phoe: (FIND-SYMBOL "MY-SYM") ;=> MY-SYM
2018-05-01T08:19:14Z phoe: (SYMBOL-VALUE 'MY-SYM) ;=> global value of the variable named by the symbol MY-SYM
2018-05-01T08:19:48Z phoe: also, the first is affected by the current package where the other is not
2018-05-01T08:21:25Z ealfonso: phoe can I access the let-bound value of my-sym instead of the global?
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2018-05-01T08:22:24Z phoe: ealfonso: is your variable a lexical one or a dynamic one?
2018-05-01T08:22:32Z phoe: clhs symbol-value
2018-05-01T08:22:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm
2018-05-01T08:22:35Z phoe: see the examples there
2018-05-01T08:24:46Z ealfonso: can I update a lexical binding given a string name
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2018-05-01T08:24:57Z phoe: ealfonso: no.
2018-05-01T08:25:40Z phoe: the lexical bindings disappear after the code is compiled, so a string would have nothing to refer to.
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2018-05-01T08:27:52Z ealfonso: that's right. not sure what I was thinking
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2018-05-01T10:30:44Z _death: Xach: since you mentioned tic-80, check out my fork https://github.com/death/TIC-80 ;)
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2018-05-01T10:44:39Z _death: too bad I didn't have time for this last game jam
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2018-05-01T12:14:07Z Xach: Wow!
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2018-05-01T13:05:28Z beach: In a Cartesian product S1 X S2 X ... X Sn, what is the name of n?
2018-05-01T13:05:47Z beach: Arity? Rank?
2018-05-01T13:07:00Z dlowe: upper bound
2018-05-01T13:07:09Z beach: Nah.
2018-05-01T13:07:11Z _death: wikipedia says n-fold
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2018-05-01T13:07:27Z beach: Hmm.
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2018-05-01T13:11:50Z TMA: beach: I would say dimension.
2018-05-01T13:12:12Z beach: That sounds better.
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2018-05-01T13:12:37Z TMA: But then, I am not a native speaker.
2018-05-01T13:13:43Z dlowe: "set count" :D
2018-05-01T13:14:46Z TMA: It is related to vector space dimension ... n-tuples of (real) numbers make a vector space of dimension n
2018-05-01T13:15:38Z beach: Not quite.  If you compare to Common Lisp arrays, then the number of dimensions is called the rank.
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2018-05-01T13:16:16Z beach: Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.
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2018-05-01T13:20:31Z TMA: rank is a higher level concept. a matrix is has rank 2, because it is a m-tuple of n-tuples, with tensors having even higher ranks; in Common Lisp a vector is a tuple (and vice versa) and a vector has rank one regardles of the dimension thereof
2018-05-01T13:20:51Z beach: Right.
2018-05-01T13:22:38Z _berke_: hi guys, I get a "This is probably a bug in SBCL itself." from maxima under imaxima, see https://pastebin.com/p7n7BSa2 - any tips?
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2018-05-01T13:26:15Z pfdietz: Stack trace would be useful.
2018-05-01T13:26:30Z pfdietz: Where is the maxima repo?
2018-05-01T13:26:33Z _berke_: how do I get that?
2018-05-01T13:26:34Z _berke_: gdb?
2018-05-01T13:26:43Z pfdietz: No, the lisp stack trace.
2018-05-01T13:26:51Z _berke_: sorry I'm a bit of a CL noob
2018-05-01T13:27:12Z pfdietz: If errors are not caught in SBCL, a stack trace gets printed showing where the error was signalled.
2018-05-01T13:27:25Z pfdietz: This helps nail down where the bug is happening.
2018-05-01T13:28:06Z pfdietz: The other thing to do is find the function it could not compile and prune off as much of it as you can while still getting the error.  Put a copy of it into its own file and edit that down.
2018-05-01T13:28:25Z _berke_: I setf'd *debugger-hook* to nil, now I'm in the debugger.  can I request a bt from there?
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2018-05-01T13:29:06Z _berke_: https://pastebin.com/k8BFRWSa
2018-05-01T13:29:47Z pfdietz: Then submit a bug at https://launchpad.net/sbcl or send it to sbcl-bugs@lists.sourceforge.net
2018-05-01T13:30:17Z _berke_: thanks, the thing is when I run maxima from the shell (ie not under imaxima from emacs) it works fine.
2018-05-01T13:31:20Z pfdietz: Not sure why you're not getting the stack track.  Try aborting to the top level REPL and manually loading that file with (load "/usr/local/share/maxima/5.41.0/share/pdiff/pdiff.lisp")
2018-05-01T13:31:30Z pfdietz: Or perhaps (compile-file <that string>)
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2018-05-01T13:33:43Z _berke_: I think the emacs maxima init file does things to catch debugger output
2018-05-01T13:33:48Z pfdietz: If you put that function in its own file, be sure to include a (in-package ...) form so it's read in the correct package.
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2018-05-01T13:34:15Z _berke_: done, I isolated the bit that causes the error
2018-05-01T13:35:05Z _berke_: https://pastebin.com/MrJbx1Ea
2018-05-01T13:35:06Z pfdietz: I assume this is the official source:  https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/master/tree/INSTALL
2018-05-01T13:35:44Z _berke_: pdfietz: I used apt-get source under debian (5.41.0-3-debian)
2018-05-01T13:36:12Z pfdietz: I have to head off, but I'll leave a note in #sbcl about this.
2018-05-01T13:36:17Z _berke_: reason is that I wanted maxima to run under SBCL.  much faster
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2018-05-01T13:36:36Z _berke_: thank
2018-05-01T13:39:36Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with crane? http://borretti.me/crane/
2018-05-01T13:39:44Z _berke_: is cat foo.lisp bar.lisp >baz.lisp and then (load "baz.lisp") equivalent to (load "foo.lisp") (load "bar.lisp") ?
2018-05-01T13:39:59Z jmercouris: _berke_: no
2018-05-01T13:40:33Z jmercouris: also you generally want to avoid manually loading lisp files, instead you should use a system
2018-05-01T13:40:52Z jmercouris: so the de-facto system is "ASDF" which stands for "another system definition facility"
2018-05-01T13:40:54Z _berke_: jmercouris: I understand but I'm chasing a bug that involves two files, is there a way to place them in a single file for an easier-to-use bug case?
2018-05-01T13:41:33Z jmercouris: _berke_: it will not be the same thing, but you might try what you are suggesting, and the bug might still appear
2018-05-01T13:41:41Z Bike: that's a pretty primitive way to do things, but i don't see why the concatenated file would be much different
2018-05-01T13:41:58Z Bike: it would only effect, like, *load-truename* and stuff, as far as i can think of
2018-05-01T13:42:15Z _berke_: jmercouris: it indeed did
2018-05-01T13:43:40Z jmercouris: I'd be pretty skeptical that it is a bug in SBCL
2018-05-01T13:43:45Z jmercouris: it's most likely a user bug
2018-05-01T13:43:57Z jmercouris: at least statistically speaking, but it is easy to blame the implementation
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2018-05-01T13:45:02Z ukari: i saw a code `(as:delay lambda time)`, i try to quickload 'as' but fail
2018-05-01T13:45:06Z _berke_: I hope so.  how can I check if any native code (e.g. shared libraries compiled from unsafe languages) were loaded?
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2018-05-01T13:48:11Z pjb: ukari: "AS" is the name of a package (probably a short nickname actually).  quickload loads systems. It expects a system name, not a package name.
2018-05-01T13:48:26Z pjb: System names may be unrelated to and very different from package names.
2018-05-01T13:49:38Z pjb: ukari: also, not all systems are on quicklisp, and not all packages are defined in systems.
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2018-05-01T13:51:36Z pjb: ukari: so you have 1- locate the name of the system where this package is defined.  Then you may try quickload on it. If it doesn't work: 2- locate the source of that system (perhaps a git repository, perhaps a tarball somewhere). Then you can clone it or untar it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and try quickload again.  If not a system, then locate the sources, download them, and either use a load script provided to compile and lo
2018-05-01T13:51:36Z pjb: sources, or write a asd system yourself.
2018-05-01T13:52:01Z pjb: Be sure to contribute the asd system if you write it, so it may eventually be integrated in quicklisp.
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2018-05-01T13:55:24Z _berke_: I reduced the bug as much as I could.  https://pastebin.com/pCsLJNrt
2018-05-01T13:55:41Z _berke_: it seems to be the combination of that style-warning-suppressor macro and the memq definition
2018-05-01T13:56:57Z _berke_: transcript: https://pastebin.com/92cSATWH - thanks for your help, gotta earn some money now
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2018-05-01T14:02:12Z ukari: thanks you, pjb. i found this package in system cl-async
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2018-05-01T14:17:34Z light2yellow: I was reading LISP 1.5 manual, appendix H ( https://books.google.com/books?id=68j6lEJjMQwC&pg=PA91 ) talks about recursion implementation. is this the first occurrence of a programming language implementing recursive functions? from what I can understand, it doesn't differ much from call stacks we have now
2018-05-01T14:20:53Z Bike: i believe so, yes.
2018-05-01T14:20:55Z tfb: light2yellow: that's interesting: it might be the first implementation
2018-05-01T14:21:23Z light2yellow: thanks, Bike
2018-05-01T14:21:48Z Bike: quick google suggests turing described it with return addresses https://www.quora.com/Who-invented-the-call-stack
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2018-05-01T14:22:07Z Bike: i think i've heard lisp was the first thing with a stack with local variables, but i dunno
2018-05-01T14:22:28Z Bike: might have been IPL something
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2018-05-01T14:25:41Z tfb: Bike: yes, I think IPL if that counts as not being just a special assembler
2018-05-01T14:26:22Z jmercouris: is Fernando Boretti ever on this channel?
2018-05-01T14:26:46Z jackdaniel: yes, he comes with nick eudoxia
2018-05-01T14:27:13Z jmercouris: I thought the name looked familiar, thanks
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2018-05-01T14:29:33Z Xach got eudoxia and eugenia confused :(
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2018-05-01T14:32:18Z light2yellow: right, so, a paper called "A brief history of stack" says that IPL had the stack, but "its usage had to be explicitly described when a subroutine was called". McCarthy made it being handled automatically. at this point the paper references his "History of LISP" which says a few sentences about SAVE and UNSAVE, on which the manual elaborates
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2018-05-01T14:39:34Z equwal: Hello, I have a question: Is ther a way to have a generic function with polyarity without hand-writing dispatching code? I want to have a function like (x 1) do something, while (x 1 1) does something else. Defgeneric doesn't really seem to do the job. I was able to hand-write some dispatching code, but I feel like this is already a feature somewhere that I am not aware of.
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2018-05-01T14:40:39Z Xach: equwal: no, it is a feature not to have variable arity. the name and argument count & names are the interface. if the argument count & names are different, it must be a new function with different behavior.
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2018-05-01T14:41:19Z Xach: equwal: i can imagine some ways you might reach your desire - what is your specific circumstance?
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2018-05-01T14:42:45Z equwal: My ad-hoc way of doing this was to define a hash table with (make-hash-table :test #'equalp) which is searched for by a list of the function name and the arguments, like (gethash (list func spec-list)). I used some macros to abstract this away a bit.
2018-05-01T14:43:14Z Xach: equwal: i mean, why do you want what you want? what is the operation you want to perform on a variable number of arguments?
2018-05-01T14:43:38Z equwal: I can't use &optional in this case either. My circumstance is I want apl functions like RHO ⍴ to accept one argument (⍴ 2) which is an empty array, or (⍴ 2 2) which is the array #(2 2) for example.
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2018-05-01T14:43:58Z tfb: equwal: a terrible solution I used was to write a wrapper which has an &rest arg, which calls into an implementation GF passing the length of the &rest arg as the first argument which is dispatched on with eql methods.
2018-05-01T14:44:06Z tfb: (I told you it was terrible)
2018-05-01T14:44:50Z Xach: at any rate, no, CLOS does not work like that.
2018-05-01T14:45:00Z Xach: there is no hidden thing you are missing
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2018-05-01T14:46:07Z equwal: Okay thank you, I will keep hand-writing the dispatch code so I can this.
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2018-05-01T15:01:59Z Xach: Hmm, I don't think I've seen this error in SBCL before: "<variable> is read-only in this environment"
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2018-05-01T15:28:16Z ealfonso: is there a good way to turn an alist into the arguments of a function whose argument list only defines a proper subset of the alist keys as &key arguments, without writing a macro myself? e.g alist: ((:var1 val1) (:var2 val2) (:var3 val3)) function: (defun my-fun (&rest args &key var1 var2) ...)
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2018-05-01T15:29:09Z beach: clhs :allow-other-keys
2018-05-01T15:29:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for :allow-other-keys.
2018-05-01T15:29:13Z beach: Bah.
2018-05-01T15:29:18Z mfiano: add &allow-other-keys and apply the converted plist?
2018-05-01T15:30:36Z beach: ealfonso: You can pass :allow-other-keys t in addition to your keyword arguments.
2018-05-01T15:30:49Z beach: ealfonso: That will suppress the check for valid keyword arguments.
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2018-05-01T15:34:24Z beach: I.e. (apply #'my-fun (list* :allow-other-keys t (reduce #'append alist :from-end t)))
2018-05-01T15:34:53Z ealfonso: beach thanks
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2018-05-01T15:36:06Z pfdietz2: Failed AVER in the sbcl compiler is always a sbcl bug, even if the user code is bad.
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2018-05-01T15:43:27Z beach: ealfonso: Anytime.
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2018-05-01T15:44:52Z ealfonso: beach how about binding only unknown keys instead of all keys? I'm using (progn (defun my-fun (&rest args &key var1 var2 &allow-other-keys) ...) (my-fun :var1 1 :var3 3)) but this binds all args. I guess I would need to do this myself?
2018-05-01T15:45:29Z beach: ealfonso: You didn't tell us that you were allowed to modify my-fun.
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2018-05-01T15:47:36Z ealfonso: beach I see, you meant I could add :allow-other-keys t from the caller, which I didn't know about. but I had forgotten about &allow-other-keys, which I can use since I'm defining the function
2018-05-01T15:48:08Z beach: I see.
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2018-05-01T15:51:35Z beach: Then, instead of &rest args, why don't you just build the list of the explicit keyword parameters, i.e. (list :var1 val1 var2 val2).
2018-05-01T15:53:32Z ealfonso: beach I'm basically trying to extract a command-line argument list, by cherry picking some and handling them in functoin A, then proxy all other arguments to another function B. this way, if I add more arguments to function B, I can simply pass them from the command line without the overhead of defining it explictly as a keyword argument in A
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2018-05-01T15:53:58Z ealfonso: s/it/them
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2018-05-01T15:54:30Z beach: Sure, that's a standard trick.
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2018-05-01T15:55:57Z ealfonso: beach but function B will crash if it gets unexpected keyword arguments... I guess I can just add :allow-other-keys t to the call to B
2018-05-01T15:56:13Z beach: Yes.
2018-05-01T15:57:40Z ealfonso: beach mfiano that worked. thanks
2018-05-01T15:57:58Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-05-01T17:43:21Z _berke_: how can I get a summary description of what a system is in quicklisp? ql:system-apropos gives a list but only with the names
2018-05-01T17:43:39Z Xach: _berke_: Unfortunately there isn't a good way right now, aside from googling the name and "lisp"
2018-05-01T17:43:47Z Xach: _berke_: quickdocs.org helps a bit
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2018-05-01T17:44:48Z _berke_: thanks.  any recommendations for a system providing a set data structure? (eg tree-based)
2018-05-01T17:45:19Z _berke_: I see there is map-set
2018-05-01T17:46:35Z p_l: _berke_: check out cl-ds?
2018-05-01T17:47:35Z _berke_: p_l: where is that?  I don't see it in quicklisp
2018-05-01T17:48:17Z _berke_: looks like fset is what I want
2018-05-01T17:48:23Z p_l: _berke_: checking, I know the devs but forgot where the library was ;)
2018-05-01T17:48:30Z p_l: and yes, for sets FSet is quite good
2018-05-01T17:50:39Z ukari: is there any way to detect if a expersion is in a lambda-list when it comes from defmacro's form?
2018-05-01T17:51:42Z ukari: www.heypasteit.com/clip/0IJK0X
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2018-05-01T18:06:28Z p_l: _berke_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
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2018-05-01T18:17:11Z shka: sadly, as for now there is no reasonable set in cl-ds
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2018-05-01T18:17:49Z shka: just functional vector (radix tree), functional dictionary (hamt) and metric space set (egnat)
2018-05-01T18:18:03Z jsjolen`: Hi, just out of curiosity: Why can't SBCL compile (let ((x 0)) (dotimes (i 1000) (incf x))) this down to (setf x 1000) (off-by-1 mistakes excluded)?
2018-05-01T18:18:05Z shka: plus bunch of algorithms, ranges and stuff
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2018-05-01T18:20:11Z shka: jsjolen`: because nobody implemented such optimization in compiler i guess!
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2018-05-01T18:21:19Z jsjolen`: shka: Meh :-).
2018-05-01T18:22:18Z MichaelRaskin: If you need that optimisation, maybe you should use Maxima first to simplify your calculations, then write Lisp code for SBCL…
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2018-05-01T18:23:27Z shka: jsjolen`: honestly though, code for that needs to be maintained and feature does not look whole lot useful
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2018-05-01T18:23:44Z shka: anyway, do we have recordings from esl somewhere already?
2018-05-01T18:24:00Z White_Flame: well, you never know what macros might generate in terms of degenerately collapsable code
2018-05-01T18:24:20Z jsjolen`: I don't need it, I'm just legit curious as to why it doesn't do that. Whether it's because it's actually deviously difficult to solve for the general case (heck, what would the general case be tehre?) for all languages or for CL in particular
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2018-05-01T18:25:37Z jsjolen`: Also nah, no ESL vids soon as far as I know shka  :-/
2018-05-01T18:25:50Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if you have macros known to generate arithmetic expressions, feeding the output to Maxima is feasible… Maintaining a computer algebra system inside compiler sounds like a duplication of work.
2018-05-01T18:26:02Z White_Flame: an incf loop isn't an arithmetic expression
2018-05-01T18:26:04Z MichaelRaskin: Although cycles are even worse…
2018-05-01T18:26:38Z Bike: people don't usually write code like that
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2018-05-01T18:27:13Z jsjolen`: White_Flame: Looks like \sum_{i=1}^{1000} 1 to me :-P
2018-05-01T18:27:50Z White_Flame: while it's functionally equivalent, it's not actually that formula
2018-05-01T18:28:13Z White_Flame: as there's no 'sum' operation concept in lisp, besides (+ ,@rest)
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2018-05-01T18:28:45Z jsjolen`: Sure. Also, if you do think of it as 'that formula' then it's easy to see that it's a bit silly to implement that specific kind of optimization in the compiler, it'd be more apt to fit it into a sum-function along with compiler macros (for example)
2018-05-01T18:29:12Z White_Flame: ah, I guess LOOP does have sum
2018-05-01T18:30:34Z White_Flame: and that compiles down to an iteration still
2018-05-01T18:30:53Z Bike: intuitively i'd say it's rare for people to write code like "do this n times" if it could be "do this once, n times as much"
2018-05-01T18:30:56Z White_Flame: in any case, SBCL's most effective optimizations are around type inference
2018-05-01T18:31:29Z White_Flame: they're quite aware that there are many other optimizations not implemented
2018-05-01T18:32:04Z White_Flame: the difficulty in this particular case is proving the scope of the variable being mutated, as being fully owned by the loop
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2018-05-01T18:32:15Z White_Flame: although this should be a lot easier in Lisp than something like C
2018-05-01T18:32:30Z Bike: you'd also have to reconstruct that it's "do this n times" from the macroexpansion.
2018-05-01T18:32:37Z White_Flame: as well has knowing which operations have which side effects, and being able to execute them safely at compile-time
2018-05-01T18:32:48Z White_Flame: Bike: yes
2018-05-01T18:32:50Z aeth: Bike: But the more optimizations the compiler has, the more people's idiomatic styles can change.
2018-05-01T18:33:11Z Bike: i don't think that general idea is applicable here
2018-05-01T18:33:19Z aeth: e.g. if you're writing very fast CL, you're probably only going to use type declarations for sequences and numbers because the type inference is probably going to solve the rest.
2018-05-01T18:33:33Z Bike: okay but i'm talking about this particular optimization
2018-05-01T18:33:34Z aeth: But if the compiler didn't do any of that you'd say that idiomatic high-performance CL types everything
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2018-05-01T18:44:03Z Xach: 762222
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2018-05-01T18:44:55Z MichaelRaskin: Short numeric PINs for online banking are bad, and someone should feel bad
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2018-05-01T18:45:56Z Xach: TOTP
2018-05-01T18:46:25Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: but then someone would have to update the size and type of a field in an old COBOL or mainframe assembly program from the 1980s or earlier.
2018-05-01T18:46:29Z MichaelRaskin: Ah OK then.
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2018-05-01T18:47:19Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: 6-digit PINs in 1980s? What were they used for? I thought card PINs are 4-digit (for physical presence case)
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2018-05-01T18:48:07Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: 6-digit would be extra secure, I guess
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2018-05-01T18:53:32Z Xof: Bike: would you like to see something horrible?
2018-05-01T18:54:51Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/
2018-05-01T18:54:57Z Xof: oops, well, that is horrible, but
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2018-05-01T18:55:07Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/fsm.lisp
2018-05-01T18:56:25Z jackdaniel: I like the text style of "Department of Computing" - reminds me of MS Word
2018-05-01T18:56:47Z White_Flame: I find it odd that the image isn't a CG render
2018-05-01T18:56:48Z p_l: IBM Mainframes used to have 8 character password size maximum
2018-05-01T18:58:10Z Bike: yes, i love horrible things
2018-05-01T18:58:48Z Xof: (a) a valid (I think) use of method-combination :arguments
2018-05-01T18:58:49Z MichaelRaskin: So, did the talk launch a new round of «how many turing complete facilities does CL have»?
2018-05-01T18:59:10Z Bike: yes, this is pretty horrible
2018-05-01T18:59:22Z Xof: (b) a chance to use my pet favourite feature: dynamically scoped named-by-symbol functions
2018-05-01T18:59:31Z Bike: the restart-bind part is confusing me more than the :arguments, yes
2018-05-01T18:59:58Z Bike: oh, there's a loop. ok.
2018-05-01T19:01:12Z Xof: hm, it's possible I don't need it
2018-05-01T19:01:24Z Xof: are the restarts still active while executing the body of the restart function, I wonder?
2018-05-01T19:01:29Z Xof: wouldn't that be neat?
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2018-05-01T19:07:13Z Xof: Bike: you're quite right, the loop is unnecessary
2018-05-01T19:07:20Z Bike: what have i wrought
2018-05-01T19:07:47Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/fsm2.lisp
2018-05-01T19:08:24Z Xof: I think I might have a winner for the next obfuscated lisp code competition
2018-05-01T19:13:17Z pjb: method-qualifiers is a symbol exported by CL! There's no need to make this code SBCL-specific!
2018-05-01T19:13:40Z Xof: so it is
2018-05-01T19:15:36Z Bike: method-qualifiers and function-keywords are the functions where you're like, why is this in cl instead of mop
2018-05-01T19:17:10Z Bike: i don't think you need the block
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2018-05-01T19:18:40Z Bike: also, (restart-case (find-restart 'x) (x ())) => "Unhandled memory fault" in sbcl, that's nice
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2018-05-01T19:25:17Z Xof: Bike: restarts have dynamic extent; don't return them
2018-05-01T19:25:36Z Bike: sure, i'm just not used to getting faults
2018-05-01T19:25:43Z Xof: I (think I) need the block because I need some way to do a non-local transfer
2018-05-01T19:25:53Z Xof: restart functions in restart-bind don't do a non-local transfer automatically
2018-05-01T19:26:02Z Bike: but you don't need to do a non local transfer
2018-05-01T19:26:20Z Xof: oh, you're right
2018-05-01T19:26:25Z Xof: I needed it earlier when I had a loop
2018-05-01T19:26:31Z Xof: this code gets simpler and simpler
2018-05-01T19:26:37Z Bike: very elegant
2018-05-01T19:27:29Z _death: so restarts as a poor man's computed goto?
2018-05-01T19:27:51Z Xof: yes
2018-05-01T19:28:04Z Bike: you don't need state to be shared either, so just `(restart-bind ... (lambda () (let ((state (call-method ...)))...))
2018-05-01T19:28:24Z Xof: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/even-as.lisp
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2018-05-01T19:28:58Z Bike: haha
2018-05-01T19:29:07Z Xof: the new non-loopy version uses stack, sadly
2018-05-01T19:29:29Z Bike: yeah, no tail calls
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2018-05-01T19:31:05Z Xof: needs a typep check for (and symbol (not null))
2018-05-01T19:31:21Z Xof: ok, this is clearly the way forward
2018-05-01T19:31:30Z Xof: all my lisp programming from now on will be done in method combinations
2018-05-01T19:32:06Z pjb: Method combinations are monads.  You're switching to functional programming :-)
2018-05-01T19:33:43Z Xach: i think there's a galaxy brain to be made here
2018-05-01T19:34:31Z random-nick: Xof: needs more change-class
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2018-05-01T19:44:21Z Xof: haha
2018-05-01T19:44:35Z Xof: googling for method combination uses, what do I find?
2018-05-01T19:44:52Z Xof: I find an article from 2014 about a fancy method combination for HTTP requests
2018-05-01T19:44:55Z Xof: punchline: I wrote it
2018-05-01T19:45:05Z Xof: extra punchline: it uses :arguments
2018-05-01T19:45:42Z MichaelRaskin: Here we expect third punchline: methods combined are PUT and GET
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2018-05-01T19:55:24Z White_Flame: methods are overdoses on meth
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2018-05-01T19:57:34Z _death: Xof: I remember Costanza's BETA method combination
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2018-05-01T20:05:38Z random-nick: hm, why is the standard method combination called STANDARD and not CAR?
2018-05-01T20:07:34Z Bike: why would it be called car
2018-05-01T20:08:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: better question
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2018-05-01T20:08:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: why is #'car called #'car?
2018-05-01T20:08:55Z Bike: some old machine's instruction mnemonics
2018-05-01T20:09:21Z LiamH: "contents of the address register" IIRC
2018-05-01T20:09:24Z White_Flame: a register had 2 fields it could be broken up into, the "address" part, and "decrement" part
2018-05-01T20:09:32Z White_Flame: so they used that for the cons cell
2018-05-01T20:09:45Z p_l: it was a bit more than that ;)
2018-05-01T20:10:04Z p_l: but IIRC it wasn't instruction mnemonics, but standard macros in assembler
2018-05-01T20:10:06Z White_Flame: yeah, more bits than that ;)
2018-05-01T20:10:23Z p_l: CPR, CAR, CDR, CTR
2018-05-01T20:10:33Z p_l: for total of 36bits
2018-05-01T20:10:39Z _death: what if HUNKs replaced CONSes
2018-05-01T20:10:53Z White_Flame: then you get an Amiga
2018-05-01T20:11:09Z p_l: _death: then the language would be probably much less usable
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2018-05-01T20:11:20Z p_l: what do you put into a HUNK when programming, for example?
2018-05-01T20:11:31Z p_l: White_Flame: MACLISP had HUNK data type, iirc
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2018-05-01T20:12:09Z White_Flame: yeah, sort of like a fixed-length tuple
2018-05-01T20:14:24Z _death: p_l: not sure what you mean..
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2018-05-01T20:20:22Z p_l: _death: CONS cells build source of Lisp programs
2018-05-01T20:24:14Z jmercouris: Petit_Dejeuner: Nobody knows the origin of car, it has been lost to time
2018-05-01T20:24:17Z _death: and what is the big difference between CONS and HUNK2?
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2018-05-01T20:33:19Z p_l: _death: I'd say the built-in semantics of list handling
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2018-05-01T20:44:03Z phoe: Xof: what in the holy hell
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2018-05-01T20:44:39Z phoe: is this a method combination that sets state based on method calls and then uses restarts to find its next state?
2018-05-01T20:45:42Z jasom: phoe: that's the obvious way to implement a state machine in common lisp, isn't it?
2018-05-01T20:46:12Z p_l: :D
2018-05-01T20:46:39Z rme: "First – and understand this, Harry, 'cause it's very important – not all wizards are good."
2018-05-01T20:47:04Z jasom: restarts are *so* close to being continuations :(
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2018-05-01T20:47:48Z MichaelRaskin: Close enough for an ELS lightning talk about that
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2018-05-01T20:48:09Z phoe: hint: there already was one
2018-05-01T20:48:22Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, that's what I meant
2018-05-01T20:48:40Z MichaelRaskin: Thanks
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2018-05-01T20:49:49Z jasom: I happen to like cooperatively scheduled lightweight threads as a programming model, so the lack of them (or continuations which are nearly isomorphic to that) in CL has always bothered me a bit. cl-cont works, but code walkers tend to bitrot.
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2018-05-01T20:50:23Z phoe: ...I still cannot understand this code after staring at it for ten minutes
2018-05-01T20:50:30Z White_Flame: yeah, I'd love to have lightweight threads that share the dynamic bindings of their launchers
2018-05-01T20:50:54Z MichaelRaskin: Trust the Lizard: Agnostic Lizard is a codewalker written in a way that has a chance not to bitrot
2018-05-01T20:50:56Z White_Flame: as in sharing the actual bindings, not just the current value at launch
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2018-05-01T20:55:02Z Bike: cooperative green threads sounds easier than continuations
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2018-05-01T20:55:25Z Bike: phoe: like xof said, you can just think of restart-bind as dynamic function bindings.
2018-05-01T20:55:42Z shrdlu68 thinks he has seen this exact discussion here before
2018-05-01T20:55:52Z Bike: nothing is new under the sun
2018-05-01T20:56:04Z phoe: Bike: yes, I know that one
2018-05-01T20:56:19Z phoe: I'm just munching on the mapcar lambda now
2018-05-01T20:56:21Z Bike: so what don't you get then
2018-05-01T20:56:26Z Bike: "it's pretty straightforward"
2018-05-01T20:57:14Z phoe: well shit, three years of doing Lisp and I can't understand a simple d-m-c
2018-05-01T20:57:22Z phoe: time to retire
2018-05-01T20:58:14Z shrdlu68: phoe: What's d-m-c?
2018-05-01T20:58:20Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: have you heard that one song "it's all just a bunch of history repeating" I want to say it is by propellerheads
2018-05-01T20:58:20Z phoe: shrdlu68: define-method-combination
2018-05-01T20:58:35Z Bike: define method combination, the lisp operator with the highest complication/usedness ratio
2018-05-01T20:59:30Z Bike: phoe: you can always compute-effective-method to look at the expansion
2018-05-01T20:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: green threads have to be integrated deeply with the runtime for them to be efficient
2018-05-01T20:59:59Z phoe: Bike: thanks, I'll do that tomorrow
2018-05-01T21:00:21Z phoe goes to sleep for now
2018-05-01T21:00:38Z Xof: now, I hope that all implementors use this as a challenge to implement invoke-restart efficiently
2018-05-01T21:00:40Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: and the efficiency considerations end up affecting the language semantics, as in Erlang and Go
2018-05-01T21:00:54Z Xof: wouldn't do to do a linear search over restart bindings now
2018-05-01T21:01:46Z MichaelRaskin: Xof: extrapolating from the fact that remove-duplicates is sometimes quadratic…
2018-05-01T21:01:46Z Bike: so, what, a hash table?
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2018-05-01T21:05:59Z phoe: a hash table from restart names to restarts? sounds much better
2018-05-01T21:06:04Z phoe goes to sleep, take two
2018-05-01T21:06:12Z jmercouris: can we go deeper?
2018-05-01T21:06:13Z Xof: we should be able to build a perfect hash
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2018-05-01T21:06:44Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I had never, but it's the glorious 21st century so now it's playing.
2018-05-01T21:06:50Z Xof: or stuff things onto the symbol-plists
2018-05-01T21:06:52Z Xof: so many choices
2018-05-01T21:07:07Z jmercouris: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should
2018-05-01T21:08:07Z Xof: shrdlu68: I apologise for your déja vu.  I've been here, on and off, for ~18 years; there's a decent chance I've said the same things once or twice
2018-05-01T21:08:31Z Bike: well, i mean, it's dynamic
2018-05-01T21:08:38Z Bike: guess you could have like a sequence of hash tables
2018-05-01T21:09:10Z jmercouris: perhaps you could just jump the pc to a random location and begin execution, hope that you are in the right place, I mean, sometimes you will be
2018-05-01T21:09:32Z Mutex7: 18 years? D:
2018-05-01T21:09:33Z jmercouris: with that, I'm done :D
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2018-05-01T21:11:10Z shrdlu68: Almost as long as the standard itself.
2018-05-01T21:11:32Z Xof: now I feel properly old
2018-05-01T21:11:41Z jmercouris: age is just a number :)
2018-05-01T21:11:57Z jmercouris: there's that whole business with the telomeres, but try not to think about that ;)
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2018-05-01T21:12:35Z p_l: ... I think I've been here ... 10~13 years?
2018-05-01T21:12:50Z Mutex7: Sounds like forever to me. Am only a recent CS grad. New to lispy things as well. Kinda hard to imagine coding for that long.
2018-05-01T21:13:28Z shrdlu68: p_l: Half as long as the lifetime of a queen in an anthill.
2018-05-01T21:14:36Z Bike: depends on the species
2018-05-01T21:14:52Z Xof: luckily I have been coding for 0 of those 18 years
2018-05-01T21:15:17Z Xof: maybe some day I will get a programming job
2018-05-01T21:15:22Z jmercouris: Xof: are you only involved in language design?
2018-05-01T21:15:27Z jmercouris: theoretical computer science?
2018-05-01T21:15:50Z Xof: no, mostly I do music computing / machine listening / teaching
2018-05-01T21:16:00Z Xof: lisp is a hobby
2018-05-01T21:16:02Z Xof: sort of
2018-05-01T21:17:59Z Mutex7: Even if you get a job programming, it's really hard to convince people to use lisp :(
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2018-05-01T21:18:14Z Mutex7: People seem allergic to it for some odd reason.
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2018-05-01T21:20:04Z shrdlu68: Heh, "Odd reason".
2018-05-01T21:21:12Z jmercouris: people are afraid of it, foreign syntax, lots of industry promises in AI, none fulfilled
2018-05-01T21:21:16Z jmercouris: it just fell out of fashion
2018-05-01T21:21:22Z jmercouris: people do what they know, and most do not know lisp
2018-05-01T21:21:47Z _death: speaking of déja vu..
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2018-05-01T21:22:07Z jmercouris: yes, sorry for beating the dead horse
2018-05-01T21:22:15Z jmercouris: I am going to sleep now, goodnight everyone!
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2018-05-01T22:03:44Z White_Flame: Xach: if I deploy an image, built with quicklisp, then at runtime on another box I want to dynamically load through QL more stuff.. is the ability to install QL only in the  quicklisp:quickstart stuff from the initial file, or can I test & install from inside the "normal" ql package running on a foreign machine?
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2018-05-01T22:14:41Z White_Flame: (I know I asked something similar a long time ago, but given the complexity we never went down that path.  It's become more necessary now)
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2018-05-01T22:49:30Z pillton: minion: memo for equwal: Specialization store can dispatch on arity. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-2:-Optional,-Keyword-and-Rest-Arguments#rest-arguments
2018-05-01T22:49:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell equwal when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-05-01T22:49:32Z jasom: Mutex7: all you have to do to become an old programmer is not quit programming :D
2018-05-01T22:50:27Z Mutex7: Yeah, I'll probably get there one day.
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2018-05-01T23:03:34Z White_Flame: how fun to try to debug: A function with declared result type NIL returned:  BORDEAUX-THREADS:CONDITION-WAIT
2018-05-01T23:04:41Z White_Flame: oh wait, is that returning a symbol?  thanks, rubber duck
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2018-05-02T00:00:02Z mathZ: 666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
2018-05-02T00:00:16Z mathZ: sorry, keyboard problem
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2018-05-02T00:08:35Z Lord_Nightmare: not cat?
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2018-05-02T00:17:16Z MichaelRaskin: Obviously too consistent for a cat
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2018-05-02T00:39:39Z vsync peeks his head up
2018-05-02T00:39:41Z vsync: so who went to ELS and was it fun?
2018-05-02T00:40:16Z Bike: yeah
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2018-05-02T00:41:37Z rme: I think it was a great success.
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2018-05-02T00:44:17Z p_l: it was great fun
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2018-05-02T00:48:33Z vsync wanted to go so bad
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2018-05-02T00:50:31Z vsync: almost grabbed a plane ticket at the last minute even but just work craziness
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2018-05-02T01:02:18Z White_Flame: hmm, when I re-evaluate my dying function without changes, it stops crashing
2018-05-02T01:02:20Z White_Flame: fun
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2018-05-02T01:23:13Z p_l: vsync: if you want to go, best is to make reservations *now*, or ASAP, so you have ready-made excuse for a whole year of planning meetings
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2018-05-02T01:23:49Z p_l: The only reason I ended up going was that someone bothered me about tickets for so long that I ended up buying the plane tickets in january
2018-05-02T01:23:53Z vsync: haha
2018-05-02T01:24:10Z vsync does not need to be on more committees
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2018-05-02T01:25:28Z rme: April 1st and 2nd, 2019, Genoa, Italy.  Put it on your calendar.
2018-05-02T01:26:09Z p_l: rme: I might have verified that free PPC VMs for CCL might be still available... :D
2018-05-02T01:26:33Z p_l: vsync: well, you don't have to be on any committee, just saying that it gives you a pre-baked reason to go :P
2018-05-02T01:28:22Z rme: p_l: I'll be interested to know.  I'm sure there's a fair amount of PPC bitrot, but maybe resurrecting the port wouldn't be too terribly difficult.
2018-05-02T01:30:25Z rme: holy smokes, that conference hotel is expensive!
2018-05-02T01:31:13Z p_l: rme: Raptor Computing Systems is getting more and more hardware free, and VMs are something they can provide quite easily (they are even building their own cloud/VPS setup)
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2018-05-02T01:52:13Z p_l: rme: right people to talk with would tpearson on #talos-workstation, here on freenode
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2018-05-02T03:22:21Z pierpa: btw, who are the hosts in Genoa?  I don't know of any lispers up there
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2018-05-02T03:24:51Z rme: It's being co-located with the conference <Programming> 2019.
2018-05-02T03:25:07Z pierpa: ah. Let me check...
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2018-05-02T03:27:12Z vtomole: clhs *print-circle*
2018-05-02T03:27:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
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2018-05-02T03:30:22Z defunkydrummer: will next year's Lisp conference be in Genova, Italy?
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2018-05-02T03:34:15Z pierpa: yes
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2018-05-02T03:35:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-02T03:36:34Z pierpa: 'morning
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2018-05-02T03:39:23Z ealfonso: I'm on a relatively old debian and I'm getting this quicklisp error when loading a dependency cffi-toolchain https://pastebin.com/HTyd7PfS my ql is recent: "2017-03-06", installed directly and not via apt-get. this doesn't happen on a newer system. any idea why or what I may need to update?
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2018-05-02T03:40:10Z defunkydrummer: good morning dear RS
2018-05-02T03:42:25Z defunkydrummer: ealfonso: if the error is on UIOP then perhaps the ASDF version you have is old... ?
2018-05-02T03:42:30Z defunkydrummer: UIOP is part of ASDF
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2018-05-02T03:44:19Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: did you install sbcl using apt-get?
2018-05-02T03:44:37Z defunkydrummer: holy shit, it's PuercoPop online, this is my lucky day
2018-05-02T03:44:54Z loke: Hello PuercoPop
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2018-05-02T03:45:26Z PuercoPop: Oi defunkydrummer, yeah I fixed my irc bouncer last week ^_^
2018-05-02T03:45:29Z PuercoPop: hi loke
2018-05-02T03:46:13Z ealfonso: PuercoPop yes, SBCL 1.2.4.debian. This doesn't seem to happen on SBCL 1.3.14.debian. I'll try upgrading
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2018-05-02T03:47:49Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: don't install from debian. It is really old. Use whatever SBCL apt-get installed to bootstrap SBCL from source. You just have to run sh make.sh --prefix=/usr/local --fancy and uninstall the APT version before you do the sudo make install
2018-05-02T03:48:21Z PuercoPop: also make sure that you haven't pulled any libraries with apt-get. They are bound to give you unnecessary trouble
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2018-05-02T03:54:40Z defunkydrummer: ealfonso: Or, if you are a lazy noobie as me, you can just download and install Portacle, and everything will work smoothly from the get go
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2018-05-02T04:01:59Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer thanks. it takes a while to compile
2018-05-02T04:02:20Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer especially on my cheap slow VPS
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2018-05-02T04:04:04Z pfdietz: ealfonso: you asked what package local nicknames were.
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2018-05-02T04:04:31Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: i want to know too; i thought package nicknames applied over the whole system
2018-05-02T04:05:00Z pfdietz: Package local nicknames are an extension to Common Lisp that help solve the package name & nickname collision problem.
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2018-05-02T04:05:36Z pfdietz: Package names are a global space, and if you look at quicklisp (for example) there are lots of systems there that are incompatible because of name collisions.
2018-05-02T04:05:56Z pfdietz: What package local nicknames do is provide a separate namespace within each package.
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2018-05-02T04:06:21Z pfdietz: These names are active only when *PACKAGE* is bound to that particular package.
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2018-05-02T04:07:45Z pfdietz: (defpackage "FOO" (:local-nicknames ("B" "BAR")) ...) means that when *PACKAGE* is bound to the FOO package, one can use B as a nickname for BAR.
2018-05-02T04:08:21Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: allright, but how portable is that? I know Allegro CL practically solves all package problems, but what about the other impls ?
2018-05-02T04:08:28Z pfdietz: Those short nicknames no longer pollute the global package namespace.  The global package names can be made large and unlikely to collide.
2018-05-02T04:08:57Z pfdietz: Several implementations support PLNs:  SBCL, ECL, ABCL.   CCL needs to add them.  I don't know about the commercial lisps.
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2018-05-02T04:10:25Z defunkydrummer: pfdietz: thanks for this info, i think it will help me for what i'm writing right now, my package names are loooooooong
2018-05-02T04:11:04Z pfdietz: I may have gotten the exact syntax in the defpackage there wrong; look at the sbcl manual.
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2018-05-02T04:18:30Z defunkydrummer: will do.
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2018-05-02T04:47:20Z ealfonso: PuercoPop btw, thanks, it worked. for some reason sudo make install didn't provide an executable in my PATH, so I had to manually link run-sbcl.sh I also used apt-get to install buildapp, it also pulled sbcl again, which I manually removed
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2018-05-02T04:48:41Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop went to sleep, it's 11:48pm in our country
2018-05-02T04:49:07Z defunkydrummer: glad to see you got it working
2018-05-02T04:49:38Z ealfonso: pfdietz thanks. I didn't remember I had asked about it. I will probably remember it once I run into a naming conflict.
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2018-05-02T04:53:16Z ealfonso: defunkydrummer (thanks)
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2018-05-02T05:39:16Z kqr: not sure if this is the right place to ask but I'll go: does anyone know to what extend CLX supports Xinput 2? specifically, I'm interested in the ability to grab keys on only a specific device
2018-05-02T05:39:23Z kqr: haven't seen this mentioned yet
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2018-05-02T05:40:48Z beach: kqr: You can ask in #clim.  jackdaniel is one of the CLX maintainers, and he hangs out there.
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2018-05-02T05:42:16Z kqr: beach, thanks, will do!
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2018-05-02T05:42:54Z beach: kqr: It might be a bit early for him though.
2018-05-02T05:43:18Z kqr: oh don't worry, it's a bit early for me too :)
2018-05-02T05:43:28Z beach: Heh.
2018-05-02T05:43:32Z kqr: by the way, what's the take on picolisp? I read about it last night and it seems a little like "the C of lisps" in that it is aimed at being simple to implement, reasonably high performance, and with virtually no safety checks
2018-05-02T05:43:58Z beach: Is picolisp an implementation of Common Lisp?
2018-05-02T05:44:04Z beach: As I recall, it is not.
2018-05-02T05:44:09Z beach: But my memory is not great.
2018-05-02T05:44:49Z kqr: picolisp is not an implementation of common lisp
2018-05-02T05:44:53Z kqr: it's quite different in many ways
2018-05-02T05:45:01Z beach: Then it's off topic.
2018-05-02T05:45:12Z kqr: oh sorry. didn't read the topic, only the channel name
2018-05-02T05:45:24Z kqr: well, I did read the topic at some point, but that was some time ago
2018-05-02T05:45:38Z beach: Yea, you are not the only one.  Don't worry about it.
2018-05-02T05:45:53Z beach: Just saying.
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2018-05-02T05:49:12Z White_Flame: kqr: ##lisp (as opposed to #lisp) is for the general Lisp family
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2018-05-02T05:49:34Z beach: Oh, right.  I forgot to mention that.
2018-05-02T05:49:43Z kqr: ah, that makes sense given how freenode namespaces things
2018-05-02T05:49:47Z kqr: which I always forget..
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2018-05-02T06:40:37Z knobo: machine-instance is not enough for me to make slime-create-filename-translator do what I want.
2018-05-02T06:40:47Z knobo: I'd like the full path too.
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2018-05-02T08:03:47Z xificurC: how can I match t in a typecase? The symbol t http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_t.htm specifies the supertype of every type
2018-05-02T08:04:34Z blep-on-external: the other case uses the symbol `otherwise`
2018-05-02T08:05:00Z phoe: xificurC: (member t)?
2018-05-02T08:05:30Z phoe: if you want a type that that is matched only by the symbol T then it should do
2018-05-02T08:05:58Z xificurC: phoe: yeah, closest I got is (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:09Z phoe: or rather (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:21Z phoe: yes, that's the proper one here since (member t) is equivalent to (eql t)
2018-05-02T08:06:33Z xificurC: ok, thanks
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2018-05-02T08:54:04Z dim: hi there!
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2018-05-02T08:55:10Z blep-on-external: hi
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2018-05-02T10:04:36Z Younder: I'd forgotten what a pin it is to move..
2018-05-02T10:04:40Z Younder: pain
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2018-05-02T11:00:06Z Xach: if you pin it, it does not move
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2018-05-02T12:40:43Z beach: In case someone is interested, I have improved the slides for my talk on choosing a programming language: http://metamodular.com/choosing-a-language.pdf  In particular, I now have several pairs of slides where the first one asks the audience for examples of languages and the second gives a list of examples.  If anyone has the time to verify that I am not making incorrect claims, I would appreciate it.
2018-05-02T12:41:42Z beach: It is a bit related to Common Lisp, because I try to inform the audience about some misconceptions with respect to dynamic languages in general and Common Lisp in particular.
2018-05-02T12:41:57Z beach: And, of course, I mention Common Lisp many times.
2018-05-02T12:42:33Z beach: In particular, I advise the use of a single dynamic language for an application, rather than the combination of a static language and a "scripting language".
2018-05-02T12:43:10Z beach: The talk will be given to a consulting company on May 15, so there is still time for more improvements.
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2018-05-02T12:52:23Z fe[nl]ix: beach: Forth is untyped as well, if you like
2018-05-02T12:52:33Z beach: Yes, good, thanks.
2018-05-02T12:52:39Z jmercouris: I have some critique, not related to the validity of the topic if you are interested
2018-05-02T12:52:46Z jmercouris: but rather than what makes a good presentation
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2018-05-02T12:53:31Z beach: Go ahead.
2018-05-02T12:53:39Z jmercouris: 1. Too much text on several slides
2018-05-02T12:53:46Z beach: Yeah, I know. :(
2018-05-02T12:54:02Z jmercouris: 2. Color scheme is terrible and distracting, simple black and white would be fine
2018-05-02T12:54:03Z beach: I'll try to fix it.
2018-05-02T12:54:10Z beach: OK.
2018-05-02T12:54:23Z jmercouris: 3. The speech overview is not adhered to within the slides
2018-05-02T12:54:41Z jmercouris: overview says that "Programming language characteristics" will be first
2018-05-02T12:54:48Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-05-02T12:54:52Z jmercouris: yet, the slide immediately thereafter is "How the choice is often made"
2018-05-02T12:55:15Z jmercouris: secondly, the audience has no reason to care about the topic
2018-05-02T12:55:26Z jmercouris: really, the first thing you should introduce to them is a reason why they should listen to you
2018-05-02T12:55:30Z jmercouris: what will you give them in this presentation
2018-05-02T12:55:45Z beach: All good points.  I'll try to fix as many as possible before the talk.
2018-05-02T12:55:47Z beach: Thanks.
2018-05-02T12:56:05Z jmercouris: maybe a better title might be "Choosing a better language for better results"
2018-05-02T12:56:08Z jmercouris: or something like that
2018-05-02T12:56:31Z jmercouris: and then you must make it extremely concrete and describe to them exactly *HOW* the choice in language will result in the purported benefits
2018-05-02T12:56:33Z beach: The title has been announced, so I don't think I'll change that for this particular event.
2018-05-02T12:56:49Z jmercouris: Well, you may still have a "Motivation" slide after the title slide with this information
2018-05-02T12:56:58Z jdz: beach: You don't mention JavaScript anywhere, but I think it is a good example for many categories (dynamic typing, automatic memory manager, has a standard (a few), very good runtimes from many vendors (Google, Apple, Mozilla)).
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2018-05-02T12:57:23Z beach: jdz: yes, good point.  Especially since it is so popular now.
2018-05-02T12:57:32Z jmercouris: I think there's a lot of good stuff in here
2018-05-02T12:57:32Z jdz: Exactly.
2018-05-02T12:57:44Z beach: I goto run, but I'll be back later, and I'll read the logs.
2018-05-02T12:57:49Z jmercouris: best of luck with the presentation :)
2018-05-02T12:57:51Z beach: Thanks again to everyone.
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2018-05-02T13:02:29Z shka: beach: why won't you add Atom/RSS feed to your webpage? :-(
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2018-05-02T13:05:42Z fe[nl]ix: beach: there's at least one static language where you can add type checks or asserts which will can be elided by the compiler, or end up being executed at runtime: Ada
2018-05-02T13:06:10Z fe[nl]ix: I suspect that other languages that have design-by-contract features behave the same, e.g. Eiffel
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2018-05-02T13:09:25Z Bike: is there any chance we can put a space in the topic between the log links? both clients i use don't treat the link correctly
2018-05-02T13:10:53Z dim: beach: you're not mentioning (void) and (void *) in C when assigning it to the different dimensions you're choosing (static, dynamic, strong/weak, etc) for the typing system, and I think it's quite an important notion that blurries everything there
2018-05-02T13:12:26Z dim: beach: more general comment about your presentation, your slides look like very good presenter notes, and require way too much thinking from the audience, I guess you're used to having the responsibity to make students/audience think by themselves rather than delivering an opinionated view of the world
2018-05-02T13:14:15Z fe[nl]ix: :D
2018-05-02T13:14:52Z phoe: beach: for slide 7, you could perhaps mention different implementations of the C standard library.
2018-05-02T13:14:59Z dim: beach: in my opinion each of your slide should have a single notion/concept written on it, big font, center (vertical&horizontal) of the screen, and your presentation is missing “recap” points with like a matrix or at least 2-column arrays to summarize your points
2018-05-02T13:16:42Z fe[nl]ix: slide 32: one problem is that the only CL that has a runtime with a modern GC is ABCL/JVM
2018-05-02T13:18:01Z dim: beach: a latex-beamer example that uses many tricks is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgconfs/tree/master/nordic_pgday_2018/normalization ; unfortunately it fails to follow my own piece of advice here :/
2018-05-02T13:18:17Z Xach: Hmm
2018-05-02T13:19:20Z Xach: Would you consider the result of (union '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) to be constant data on which SORT should not be called?
2018-05-02T13:19:51Z Xach: My perhaps unfounded expectation was that UNION would return a fresh list in that circumstance.
2018-05-02T13:20:03Z phoe: Xach: it does not say that it returns a fresh list.
2018-05-02T13:20:20Z Xach: Indeed it doesn't.
2018-05-02T13:20:40Z phoe: only NUNION kinda does, because it is destructive anyway.
2018-05-02T13:21:24Z Bike: union says the result could be eq to one of the arguments in the trivial case, so i guess constant folding isn't a completely absurd proposition
2018-05-02T13:21:42Z phoe: Xach: SBCL here, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/775#775
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2018-05-02T13:22:12Z phoe: so the result shares structure with the arguments
2018-05-02T13:22:32Z Bike: oh, like that. right.
2018-05-02T13:22:55Z Xach: phoe: i find that even more surprising
2018-05-02T13:23:00Z phoe: Xach: why?
2018-05-02T13:23:23Z Xach: I would not expect UNION to clobber the cdr chain of its arguments.
2018-05-02T13:23:33Z Xach: Oh, but it doesn't.
2018-05-02T13:23:41Z Bike: yeah it just throws the whole thing in.
2018-05-02T13:24:41Z phoe: copying the whole list doesn't make sense to me for an union operation, either
2018-05-02T13:25:36Z Xach: Ok, the fact that the tail could be a constant makes the behavior more intuitive to me.
2018-05-02T13:25:53Z phoe: Xach: either LIST-1 or LIST-2 may be constant
2018-05-02T13:26:02Z phoe: or both can be
2018-05-02T13:28:08Z Xach: phoe: it's the "tainting" of the result with respect to "don't modify it" that puzzled me, but I'm not puzzled any more.
2018-05-02T13:28:41Z phoe: Xach: thou hast now gained insight into the ways of the union
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2018-05-02T13:36:34Z Xach: My next thought was that having duplicate elements would make it modify the lists to remove duplicates, hence making a fresh tail. But: If either list-1 or list-2 has duplicate entries within it, the redundant entries might or might not appear in the result.
2018-05-02T13:36:48Z Xach: only duplicates across lists are considered
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2018-05-02T13:40:26Z Xach: I can feel myself inspired to create a LispTip!!
2018-05-02T13:41:13Z Xach: It feels justified in hindsight, but I really did not expect that you should not modify the results of UNION.
2018-05-02T13:42:05Z Xach: Maybe I made too many assumptions based on the presence of nunion.
2018-05-02T13:43:07Z phoe: Xach: you are always permitted to modify the result of NUNION
2018-05-02T13:43:29Z phoe: because either you gave non-constant arguments to NUNION and everything is correct or you are already in undefined behaviour so you can do anything anyway
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2018-05-02T13:44:13Z Xach: anything!
2018-05-02T13:45:02Z phoe: Xach: anything, yes!
2018-05-02T13:46:45Z Xach goes mad with possibility
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2018-05-02T14:50:52Z Xof: you go mad over nunion and not over our awesome finite state machine method combination?
2018-05-02T14:51:51Z addsub: https://github.com/google/netstack
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2018-05-02T14:52:02Z addsub: is there such stack in lisp?
2018-05-02T14:53:18Z shka: addsub: i don't know any
2018-05-02T14:53:34Z shka: also, not sure how usefull it would be
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2018-05-02T14:54:51Z addsub: how so?
2018-05-02T14:55:46Z shka: just have problem figuring out what can i use it for that usocket won't cut
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2018-05-02T14:56:13Z jdz: There's also this one: https://github.com/secdev/scapy.
2018-05-02T14:56:38Z Xach: addsub: there's slitch, but it is a little old now
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2018-05-02T14:56:46Z Xach: it is ipv4 for cmucl, i think.
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2018-05-02T14:59:45Z jdz: shka: usocket allows one to send packets, but these libraries are for use with raw sockets, and for composing the contents under user control.
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2018-05-02T15:00:30Z Xach: the author of slitch has done a few more things with networking since then
2018-05-02T15:00:37Z jdz: shka: one use case is to generate semi-random-valid packets and test network devices.
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2018-05-02T15:09:50Z shka: well, ok you can construct PACKET OF DOOM
2018-05-02T15:10:32Z shka: that is legitimate reason to use such stack, i must admit
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2018-05-02T15:20:42Z beach: shka: I am not adding Atom/RSS because I don't know how to, and I don't know what it is useful for.
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2018-05-02T15:22:17Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-02T15:22:19Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Thanks for the Ada suggestion.
2018-05-02T15:22:26Z beach: Hello DemolitionMan.
2018-05-02T15:22:31Z shka: beach: Atom or RSS is basicly automatic notification stream for web
2018-05-02T15:22:46Z beach: shka: Thanks.
2018-05-02T15:22:52Z DemolitionMan: is there any cl-prometheus user? I need to understand how to render sensors data with timestamp
2018-05-02T15:23:07Z shka: so user can subscribe and they can be notified when there is new post on blog or some sort of update
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2018-05-02T15:23:44Z beach: dim: void and void* are good suggestions.  Thanks.  I'll try to work them in.
2018-05-02T15:23:54Z shka: majority of web frameworks have some sort of support for that, but you webpage seems to static and hand written html
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2018-05-02T15:24:39Z beach: shka: Web stuff is one area I have not had the patience to dig into.
2018-05-02T15:25:40Z shka: well, that's ok
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2018-05-02T15:27:28Z beach: dim: I think part of why I was welcomed back is that I make them think.  They especially told me last time that they were surprised (in a positive way) that I was not trying to sell them a particular tool or technique.
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2018-05-02T15:29:20Z shka: heh, guy on stackoverflow suggest generating webpage out of RSS stream instead of other way around
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2018-05-02T15:29:44Z shka: this is actually kinda neat idea
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2018-05-02T15:30:23Z phoe: shka: you just reinvented the RSS reader
2018-05-02T15:30:23Z beach: phoe: Why is the C library a good example?
2018-05-02T15:31:01Z shka: phoe: well, people expect to see webpage
2018-05-02T15:31:03Z phoe: beach: I thought that the functions exported by the standard C library are standardized, but each C standard library implements it in its own way.
2018-05-02T15:31:19Z phoe: So there's the difference between the standard and the implementation.
2018-05-02T15:31:45Z shka: hm
2018-05-02T15:31:47Z phoe: Same goes for the compiler; the C that is the source code is standardized, but each C compiler implements turning that source code into machine formats differently.
2018-05-02T15:32:39Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Yes, that is definitely a problem.  But since I am not mentioning Common Lisp explicitly, I don't think it is a problem.
2018-05-02T15:32:54Z beach: This crowd is very likely programming in C# or Java.  Perhaps some in C++.
2018-05-02T15:33:48Z phoe: beach: this is also why I thought that using C compiler/stdlib as an example would be a good idea.
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2018-05-02T15:34:28Z shka: well, C++ or C at least have portable standard
2018-05-02T15:34:43Z shka: some parts are implementation dependent, true
2018-05-02T15:35:06Z shka: but I still prefer this over something like python
2018-05-02T15:35:07Z beach: dim: Thanks for the Beamer example.  I don't think I have time to study it in depth right now.
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2018-05-02T15:35:39Z beach: phoe: Yes, sure.  I can mention those examples.
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2018-05-02T15:37:59Z phoe: beach: good! I'm glad I can help.
2018-05-02T15:38:45Z shka: it is funny how easy is to shoot yourself with C and C++
2018-05-02T15:39:13Z shka: messing memory alignment is one example of that
2018-05-02T15:39:18Z phoe: shka: C++ gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. The mixed metaphor is important.
2018-05-02T15:39:29Z phoe goes to #lispcafe then
2018-05-02T15:39:31Z beach: shka: Funny for you perhaps.  Very sad for someone like me, partly responsible for trying to make the software industry more productive by teaching better ways to do it.
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2018-05-02T15:40:28Z jackdaniel: well, it's not that Lisp doesn't give you enough rope to hang yourself
2018-05-02T15:40:29Z shka: reality is funny ;-)
2018-05-02T15:40:54Z shka likes rope
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2018-05-02T15:42:40Z phoe: (let (x) (loop (setf x (cons x x)))) is a pretty fun way to be stupid
2018-05-02T15:44:45Z beach: phoe: Why are you looking for ways to be stupid?
2018-05-02T15:45:03Z orestarod: that's actually an expression of intelligence
2018-05-02T15:45:20Z orestarod: actively using your intellect to find funny ways to be stupid
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2018-05-02T15:46:22Z beach: I should have known that this point would be debatable.
2018-05-02T15:46:31Z beach: Everything in #lisp seems to be.
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2018-05-02T15:58:36Z phoe: beach: the discussion suddenly took a turn towards shooting oneself in the foot. I decided to contribute.
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2018-05-02T16:56:14Z p_l: Sometimes I feel like the humourous anecdotes and aphorisms stick better in minds of new programmers than all the "dull" ones
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2018-05-02T16:56:40Z p_l: but then you have "GOTO Considered Harmful"
2018-05-02T16:56:42Z ioa: hi
2018-05-02T16:56:49Z p_l: ioa: hi
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2018-05-02T19:27:09Z rme: phoe: The badge you made me at the ELS makes a good Twitter/GitHub profile picture.  Thank you.
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2018-05-02T19:31:17Z puchacz: hi, is there a library that would allow lisp-to-lisp interactive communication?
2018-05-02T19:31:46Z puchacz: e.g. in my "local" lisp I would write in repl: (with-remote-lisp (*server1*) (compute-something))
2018-05-02T19:31:54Z puchacz: and it would compute it on remote lisp
2018-05-02T19:32:11Z puchacz: the reason I want it is to aggregate data from many lisp images
2018-05-02T19:32:25Z puchacz: so I would for example (reduce #'append ..... ) incoming lists
2018-05-02T19:32:41Z puchacz: it does not have to be fast or optimizing or anything like this
2018-05-02T19:32:56Z puchacz: it is for interactive investigations
2018-05-02T19:33:21Z phoe: rme: <3
2018-05-02T19:33:47Z phoe: puchacz: yes
2018-05-02T19:33:57Z phoe: one sec
2018-05-02T19:34:11Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/lfarm
2018-05-02T19:34:15Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/swank-crew
2018-05-02T19:34:37Z puchacz: phoe: isn't lfarm tied to lparallel?
2018-05-02T19:34:44Z phoe: the former uses lparallel interface, the latter does not
2018-05-02T19:34:45Z Younder: Quants waging Haskell. What is the world coming to.
2018-05-02T19:34:45Z puchacz: I know the name, but I haven't used it
2018-05-02T19:34:47Z phoe: puchacz: correct
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2018-05-02T19:35:11Z puchacz: phoe: okay, thanks. swank-crew then for me
2018-05-02T19:35:35Z Younder: crank-screw it is
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2018-05-02T19:36:12Z puchacz: also, somebody here (maybe Xach?) mentioned that I can have local copy of the whole quicklisp
2018-05-02T19:36:22Z Xach: it is not too tricky
2018-05-02T19:36:22Z puchacz: so I can avoid corporate authenticating proxy problem
2018-05-02T19:36:46Z Xach: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems (dist "quicklisp")))))))
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2018-05-02T19:37:28Z puchacz: Xach: right, thanks :-)
2018-05-02T19:37:30Z phoe: Xach: 'ql:ensure-installed?
2018-05-02T19:37:33Z phoe: or any symbol will do?
2018-05-02T19:37:37Z phoe: oh wait
2018-05-02T19:37:38Z phoe: I see
2018-05-02T19:37:45Z phoe: you're using this fancy syntax
2018-05-02T19:39:09Z Xach: so fancy
2018-05-02T19:39:50Z Younder: lets PRETTY-PRINT it
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2018-05-02T19:44:28Z cgay: Lisp has no syntax. I heard it on the internet.
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2018-05-02T19:45:07Z phoe: cgay: then you heard wrong
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2018-05-02T19:46:34Z cgay: That was kinda the implication.
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2018-05-02T19:46:54Z fe[nl]ix: fake news !
2018-05-02T19:46:59Z phoe: cgay: the Internet has a lot of ideas about Lisp, a lot of which are plain bull dung.
2018-05-02T19:46:59Z Younder: Yeah JSON is a wierd Lisp dialect
2018-05-02T19:47:00Z iqubic: the main building block of lisp is the paren
2018-05-02T19:47:08Z phoe: Younder: oh the burn
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2018-05-02T19:49:42Z jmercouris: iqubic: is that so? or is it the atom?
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2018-05-02T19:52:43Z phoe: jmercouris: no, you can express *all* of lisp using only The Holy Paren
2018-05-02T19:52:46Z phoe: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
2018-05-02T19:53:57Z jmercouris: lol
2018-05-02T19:53:58Z jmercouris: well
2018-05-02T19:54:26Z jmercouris: the quine is very interesting
2018-05-02T19:54:33Z jmercouris: I think that's the most succinct looking version I've ever seen
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2018-05-02T19:56:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe: make it stop
2018-05-02T19:58:59Z warweasle: Reminds me of the Lambda Calculus.
2018-05-02T19:59:25Z warweasle: By concating functions you can make numbers! And go blind if you actually try and use that.
2018-05-02T20:00:14Z warweasle: It's clever. But I have to imagine someone went to the loony bin after thinking that one up.
2018-05-02T20:00:42Z Petit_Dejeuner has been playing around with a hardware design optimized for church numerals.
2018-05-02T20:01:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Just think, instead of having a seperate ALU, you could just do everything through ()()())))((()()()
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2018-05-02T20:01:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Every numeric transformation you optimized would also optimize every similar expression.
2018-05-02T20:02:28Z warweasle: My brain can't even comprehend what you are saying.
2018-05-02T20:02:47Z Younder: You would LOVE brainfuck
2018-05-02T20:02:55Z warweasle: It has something to do with computers, right?
2018-05-02T20:02:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes.
2018-05-02T20:03:30Z warweasle: Younder: I prefer Whitespace. But it's easiest just to put BF and WS in the same file and compile it twice.
2018-05-02T20:03:50Z Younder: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
2018-05-02T20:04:18Z warweasle: Really the best way to program BF is to use lisp to compile to it.
2018-05-02T20:04:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Create a lambda calc machine and optimize some of the evaluations with hardware lookup tables (arrays of multiplexers). The hard part is coming up with a way to represent values and to chunk them in case a single evaluation isn't possible with one lookup.
2018-05-02T20:04:57Z random-nick: we all know that malbolge is superior to bf
2018-05-02T20:05:10Z warweasle: The bad guy from Spawn?
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2018-05-02T20:06:17Z Younder: brainfuck is a joke from some guy's from MIT who wrote the 'anti' perfect programming language
2018-05-02T20:06:21Z random-nick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
2018-05-02T20:07:13Z Younder: Take everything you ever learned and then break every rule.
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2018-05-02T20:10:29Z Younder: random-nick, thx, I believe you have it beat
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2018-05-02T20:11:19Z Younder: random-nick, I love the bit about a search algorithm to find a legal program
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2018-05-02T20:15:29Z jmercouris: this is the kind of stuff _death would enjoy
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2018-05-02T21:16:16Z TMA: hunchentoot keeps idle looping consuming one full core of CPU time after the first request. The I am not aware of anything special I have done to make it so. Even a request for static content is enough to triger this behavior.
2018-05-02T21:16:46Z TMA: I have no idea, what might cause that. Have you encountered something similar?
2018-05-02T21:16:54Z phoe:  TMA: which hunchentoot version? are you able to interrupt that thread and force it to print a stacktrace?
2018-05-02T21:17:22Z TMA: phoe: I am able to suspend the thread from the outside
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2018-05-02T21:18:09Z phoe: TMA: no need to suspend that particular thread; find it within your Lisp image and try (interrupt-thread thread #'break)
2018-05-02T21:18:29Z phoe: that'll hopefully force it to enter the debugger and print its stack inside it.
2018-05-02T21:18:29Z TMA: 1.2.38
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2018-05-02T21:28:02Z TMA: http://lpaste.net/8619932988647407616 I do not see anything peculiar there
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2018-05-02T21:34:04Z TMA: http://lpaste.net/3814866385545199616 it is different at different times
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2018-05-02T21:47:28Z phoe: well, shit
2018-05-02T21:47:55Z phoe: TMA: try recompiling hunchentoot with (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3) and see if the problem persists
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2018-05-02T21:56:41Z TMA: phoe: I suspect #+(and win32 sbcl x86-64) just uses busy loop wait for some reasons
2018-05-02T21:57:10Z phoe: TMA: does the worker respond normally to requests, or are other workers spun up?
2018-05-02T21:59:17Z TMA: phoe: it is functionally OK, this is the hunchentoot-listener-*:8443 thread that spins up the workers. it is just annoying that the CPU gets hot and the fan speeds up and makes noise, which distract me
2018-05-02T21:59:40Z phoe: TMA: I see. Weird.
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2018-05-03T01:40:22Z White_Flame: FBOUNDP Pronunciation:  [,ef'bandpee] .  Who pronounces "bound" as "band"?
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2018-05-03T01:58:57Z Xach: bahhhnd
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2018-05-03T02:29:47Z pfdietz: flet is pronounced "flay", right?
2018-05-03T02:31:09Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-03T02:31:42Z PuercoPop: I pronounce it f-let
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2018-05-03T02:33:27Z PuercoPop: Then again I was surprised when I learned some lispers pronounce CLOS as 'see-los' instead of 'klos' (same as clause)
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2018-05-03T02:37:35Z rme: The joke is that you pronounce "flet" in order to rhyme with "macrolet", which itself is pronounced to rhyme with "Chevrolet".
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2018-05-03T02:40:07Z rme: Most people I talk to say "see-loss", but I also hear "kloss".
2018-05-03T02:40:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: I say kloss
2018-05-03T02:41:56Z mfiano: kloss for me
2018-05-03T02:42:46Z mfiano: and f-let, macro-let, and i also use mvlet from serapeum for nested multiple value binding
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2018-05-03T02:54:42Z Josh_2: kloss
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2018-05-03T03:20:49Z iqubic: I say kloss.
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2018-05-03T03:22:30Z rme: barbarians :-)
2018-05-03T03:25:05Z mfiano: Anyone with access to CCL, does static-vectors of the latest QL dist quickload for you?
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2018-05-03T03:27:17Z rme: it loaded for me on darwin/x8664
2018-05-03T03:27:44Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/1a558fe12177299f3ba4fd7efdfcadeb
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2018-05-03T03:28:23Z mfiano: Works just fine on SBCL. Went to test my project on CCL and nope :/
2018-05-03T03:29:03Z defunkydrummer: buon giorno amici
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2018-05-03T03:29:43Z cgay: haha, now I will always say "macrolay" and "flay". There's just no going back.
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2018-05-03T03:30:42Z rme: how did you install ccl? it looks like it can't find the interface db (used by the #_ reader macro).
2018-05-03T03:31:40Z mfiano: I compiled it from the svn repo
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2018-05-03T03:32:01Z defunkydrummer: cgay: macrolay, flay, flay-star, and also frito-lay
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2018-05-03T03:33:44Z rme: mfiano: "offical" ccl has been on github for a while now (https://github.com/Clozure/ccl). If you start your ccl and evaluate (#_getpid) does it work?
2018-05-03T03:34:10Z mfiano: no
2018-05-03T03:34:41Z rme: I suggest that you grab a release from https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/tag/v1.11.5
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2018-05-03T03:35:52Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: static-vectors quickloads fine for me, i'm on SBCL 1.3.10 on windows 64bit
2018-05-03T03:36:00Z mfiano: I took the lazy way and just installed ccl-git from the Arch AUR. I also think I should reboot this machine...it might have had a few linux kernel installs that diverge from the booted one :)
2018-05-03T03:36:12Z mfiano: I'll check on all that
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2018-05-03T03:36:20Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: i'm really pending to try CCL since long ago, i'll see if there is a binary for lazy-ass guys like me
2018-05-03T03:36:24Z mfiano: defunkydrummer: Yeah it has always worked on SBCL for me
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2018-05-03T03:37:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-05-03T03:37:35Z cgay: I think even back in the 80s there were both the c-loss and kloss pronunciations. I distinctly remember switching from the former to the latter because it seemed more dominant.
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2018-05-03T03:37:48Z defunkydrummer: oh yeah, CCL has a binary for lazy flakes like me... Downnnloaaadinggggggg my entry to the fantastic world of CCL
2018-05-03T03:37:51Z rme: defunkydrummer: Please see above release link. Download and unpack one file, and you'll have a running ccl (binaries and sources).
2018-05-03T03:38:06Z defunkydrummer: CloZure, which sounds so mmmuch better than Clojure !!
2018-05-03T03:38:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any way to close sockets in sbcl that you've accidentally leaked?
2018-05-03T03:38:35Z defunkydrummer: Clo-zu-re! yay! flay! macrolay!
2018-05-03T03:38:57Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: (sb-ext:quit)
2018-05-03T03:39:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: :(
2018-05-03T03:39:16Z cgay: Who have you leaked sbcl to?
2018-05-03T03:39:18Z defunkydrummer: bonjour Beach
2018-05-03T03:39:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was running drakma:http-request in a loop with want-stream t, and I didn't think about how leaving the stream open means leaking sockets
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2018-05-03T03:40:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I'd rather not lose my repl state
2018-05-03T03:40:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it's just exiting
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2018-05-03T03:51:22Z PuercoPop: TIL that I've been pronouncing Chevrolet wrong all my life!
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2018-05-03T03:53:52Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop: CHE-BRO-LET : che (argentinian for "bro"), bro (american for "che"), let (binding operator)
2018-05-03T03:54:11Z defunkydrummer: PuercoPop also there's chevrolet* and fchevrolet
2018-05-03T03:54:37Z defunkydrummer: rme: i just got the CCL REPL running. Thanks !
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2018-05-03T03:56:01Z cgay: no chevrolabels?
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2018-05-03T03:57:48Z defunkydrummer: yes, like a chevrolet but with a large scope. The scope allows you to see further into the road, particularly at night, and more particularly when you have (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3)))
2018-05-03T03:58:05Z defunkydrummer: sorry for so much nonsense
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2018-05-03T04:12:54Z ukari: how to define a anonymous macro
2018-05-03T04:13:35Z PuercoPop: ukari: macrolet to a gensym?
2018-05-03T04:14:37Z PuercoPop: What  do you want to accomplish?
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2018-05-03T04:17:23Z ukari: i want to make a yield generator, if keyword yield (a macro) could be local scope it should be better
2018-05-03T04:20:30Z PuercoPop: Then yeah, macrolet sounds what you are lookingfor
2018-05-03T04:22:29Z ukari: thanks you,  PuercoPop
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2018-05-03T04:36:02Z defunkydrummer: oh, i've installed CCL for the first time and already installed swank... so excited, because SBCL is so mainstream for a hipster.
2018-05-03T04:36:34Z defunkydrummer: does anybody know if CCL will someday support package local nicknames? is CCL actively mantained ?
2018-05-03T04:37:55Z rme: maybe.  yes.
2018-05-03T04:39:09Z rme: I talked to Xach a little bit at the ELS about the package local nickname issue.  I'm willing to consider adding it to CCL.
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2018-05-03T04:40:23Z defunkydrummer: rme: you are the maintainer? i'm not worthy! PS: You gained (1+ ) user today. Can't wait to load now my project under CCL
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2018-05-03T04:40:45Z rme: well, you might hate it, so don't thank me yet.
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2018-05-03T04:41:08Z rme: But I like it.
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2018-05-03T04:54:03Z defunkydrummer: rme: so far everything is loading fine and fast :)
2018-05-03T04:55:01Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: now loading static-vectors on CCL...
2018-05-03T04:55:18Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: "Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5  (WindowsX8664)"
2018-05-03T04:56:09Z defunkydrummer: mfiano: loaded fine. On windows in this case.
2018-05-03T04:56:57Z rme: Note that there is an odd bug where, on Windows, sometimes (ccl:quit) will hang instead of existing the lisp.  I don't know why.
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2018-05-03T04:59:45Z defunkydrummer: rme: why would I want to quit the REPL? the repl is the only true home
2018-05-03T04:59:54Z defunkydrummer: it would be suicide.
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2018-05-03T05:09:02Z flip214: rme: other threads still running, or even locked in a syscall?
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2018-05-03T05:22:38Z rme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/24 is all I know
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2018-05-03T07:18:31Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: when that happened to me and all descriptors were taken I just did (sb-posix:close 1234)
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2018-05-03T09:37:23Z Xof: in (let ((z 'bar)) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination bar z))), what do you expect the method combination to receive as an argument?
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2018-05-03T09:40:31Z beach: I take it it is unspecified whether the argument is evaluated?
2018-05-03T09:43:16Z Xof: I can't see it specified
2018-05-03T09:43:22Z Xof: I might have missed something.  (I hope I have)
2018-05-03T09:46:50Z beach: Don't count on it.
2018-05-03T09:47:18Z beach: I would help you, but my computer has some hardware problem I think, and it keeps crashing if I do too many things.
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2018-05-03T09:50:49Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/the-defgeneric-macro.html
2018-05-03T09:51:06Z beach: "The handling of the :method-combination option is not specified."
2018-05-03T09:53:01Z beach: Note to self: In WSCL, specify how the :METHOD-COMBINATION option of DEFGENERIC is handled, in particular, whether the method-combination-arguments are evaluated.
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2018-05-03T09:58:58Z meh: beach: From your slides, what does "obtaining a pointer outside of an array" mean?
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2018-05-03T10:29:24Z akr: hello, anyone knowledgeable about postmodern? I'm trying to put together a simple query: http://lpaste.net/3943544928583286784
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2018-05-03T10:30:07Z akr: when track is nil, the query should require that track is nil, otherwise it should require that it is equal to the id
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2018-05-03T10:30:19Z akr: not sure how to write this, though
2018-05-03T10:31:29Z akr: I guess that the whole (:select …) form is quoted by pomo:query, but I can't use backtick inside it on my own
2018-05-03T10:31:37Z shka: akr: this maps directly into sql semantics
2018-05-03T10:32:15Z shka: you can simply construct list on your own though, compile it and then query it
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2018-05-03T10:35:17Z akr: how do I compile it?
2018-05-03T10:35:35Z akr: oh, pomo:sql-compile?
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2018-05-03T10:38:19Z akr: yeah ok looks like that's it
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2018-05-03T10:44:00Z akr: thanks, looks like it works
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2018-05-03T11:29:52Z meh: Is there a word that refers to the property of a system and processes on that system such that any effect on the system can be undone?
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2018-05-03T11:47:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: Non-destructive?*
2018-05-03T11:48:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: *however this is like saying pure (in FP) I suppose
2018-05-03T11:48:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: Reversible works better.
2018-05-03T11:49:30Z ukari: i found that it seems common to add (in-package :cl-user), is thete any benefit to it?
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2018-05-03T11:51:10Z ukari: or just for ensure move into cl-user?
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2018-05-03T11:53:59Z Xach: it can be nice to know where you are
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2018-05-03T11:54:47Z shka: better safe then sorry!
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2018-05-03T11:56:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: meh: if I were selling a product I'd say non-destructive. Users don't really mind how you allocate data in their software. If I were describing processes in Lisp, reversible hopefully will confuse people less.
2018-05-03T11:56:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: nconc is destructive, append is not destructive. Neither is very reversible.
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2018-05-03T12:04:38Z dim: meh: transactional, I guess, see also ROLLBACK
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2018-05-03T12:11:48Z jdz: There's whole branch of since about "reversible computing", so I'd bet it has quite a specific meaning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
2018-05-03T12:12:07Z jdz: s/since/science
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2018-05-03T12:16:18Z meh: Noted, thanks for the suggestions.
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2018-05-03T13:13:23Z pfdietz: "Persistent"?
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2018-05-03T16:18:57Z capitaomorte: what's the easiest way to pairwise-merge two lists of the same size?
2018-05-03T16:20:00Z capitaomorte: i can think of loop, but isn't there something more concise?
2018-05-03T16:20:00Z Bike: so (1 2 3) and (4 5 6) become ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)), or what?
2018-05-03T16:20:09Z capitaomorte: Bike: yes
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2018-05-03T16:20:16Z Bike: (mapcar #'list list1 list2)
2018-05-03T16:20:38Z capitaomorte: right :-) only problem is elisp doesn't have multiarg mapcar
2018-05-03T16:20:47Z capitaomorte: and this is an elisp problem (forgot to mention thath)
2018-05-03T16:20:54Z capitaomorte: it does have map, tho
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2018-05-03T16:21:24Z Bike: you're in the wrong channel then, i believe there is #emacs
2018-05-03T16:21:28Z beach: capitaomorte: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-05-03T16:21:47Z capitaomorte: beach: I know, but it's not that different
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2018-05-03T16:21:53Z cgay: oh oh
2018-05-03T16:22:06Z beach: capitaomorte: It is though.  Emacs Lisp does not have multiarg mapcar, apparently.
2018-05-03T16:22:07Z sjl: I mean, it's different in exactly this particular case you care about
2018-05-03T16:22:11Z capitaomorte: would it help if i restate my question to require MAP?
2018-05-03T16:22:34Z shka: (map 'list #'list list1 list2)
2018-05-03T16:22:35Z sjl: no, because MAP also takes multiple sequences
2018-05-03T16:22:42Z shka: ;-)
2018-05-03T16:22:52Z Xach: PAIRLIS is almost it!
2018-05-03T16:22:54Z Bike: i don't know how emacs map works
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2018-05-03T16:23:10Z capitaomorte: shka: thanks!
2018-05-03T16:23:30Z capitaomorte: everyone else: sorry to offend the channel's rules
2018-05-03T16:23:39Z Xach: (pairlis list1 (mapcar 'list list2))
2018-05-03T16:23:51Z _death: elisp's map can take multiple sequences
2018-05-03T16:23:52Z sjl: I always forget about pairlis
2018-05-03T16:24:05Z cgay: I personally usually find LOOP more readable.
2018-05-03T16:24:18Z cgay prepares for battle
2018-05-03T16:24:21Z Bike: it's not a matter of offense, it's just that we can't offer as good help as the emacs people
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2018-05-03T16:24:36Z sjl: Ah, though PAIRLIS can return the results in either forward or reverse order
2018-05-03T16:24:43Z shka: more emacs people
2018-05-03T16:24:47Z Xach: I never forget Pairlis's epigrams regarding lisp
2018-05-03T16:25:13Z rme: haha
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2018-05-03T16:25:53Z _death: he was a famous Lispair
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2018-05-03T16:26:48Z capitaomorte: Bike: just thought it would be a fun question
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2018-05-03T16:27:12Z capitaomorte: I don't hang out in #emacs much, neither here for that matter
2018-05-03T16:27:37Z capitaomorte: well thanks, and bye
2018-05-03T16:27:37Z Younder: I started out with learning elisp, as I am sure many others did
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2018-05-03T16:28:27Z Younder: 1994 or something like that
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2018-05-03T16:32:41Z cgay: Funny that this timeline of Lisps is on the Lisp Machine Lisp page, not something more general... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_Machine_Lisp  I started with Zetalisp.
2018-05-03T16:33:51Z cgay: oh, I see, it's included in many of the lisp pages.
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2018-05-03T17:06:37Z ukari: is it possible to pull a macrolet variable to outside? sth like this, (funcall (lambda () (macrolet ((fn (&body body) `(lambda () ,@body))) fn)))
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2018-05-03T17:07:22Z Bike: macrolet defines a macro. there is no variable to begin with.
2018-05-03T17:07:34Z Bike: so i don't know what you're trying to do here.
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2018-05-03T17:08:09Z ukari: i want to get macro 'fn' out as an anonymous macro
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2018-05-03T17:08:20Z phoe: ukari: you can't really do that.
2018-05-03T17:08:39Z Bike: what is the point of an anonymous macro?
2018-05-03T17:09:08Z ukari: something anonymous like lambda
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2018-05-03T17:09:36Z phoe: in the base case, you can define an anonymous function that accepts two arguments, WHOLE and ENV, and funcall this on your forms, then eval that code.
2018-05-03T17:09:38Z Bike: that doesn't answer my question. you can use an anonymous function. you can funcall or apply it. an anonymous macro does not have a similar use.
2018-05-03T17:09:41Z phoe: but that's a very workaround.
2018-05-03T17:10:12Z ukari: (macro lambda-list &body)
2018-05-03T17:10:28Z Bike: But what would it be good for. What are you doing with it.
2018-05-03T17:10:45Z ukari: a function would eval arguements but macro not
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2018-05-03T17:11:13Z Bike: Eval arguments when? how are you using this? What is example code? You can use an anonymous function like (funcall (lambda (x) x) 4) => 4.
2018-05-03T17:11:18Z Bike: what are you doing with an anonymous macro?
2018-05-03T17:12:04Z ukari: Bike, i dont know, i thought an anonymous macro might be exist
2018-05-03T17:12:24Z Bike: it doesn't.
2018-05-03T17:12:33Z Bike: here's the trick: macros are gone once the compiler is finished.
2018-05-03T17:12:46Z Bike: macrolets disappear after compile time. they don't leave behind macros as values or anything.
2018-05-03T17:13:00Z Bike: so passing macros around as values is a difficult proposition.
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2018-05-03T17:15:12Z ukari: i get it
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2018-05-03T17:39:20Z flip214: the even bigger problem is that the compiler will already have computed all the _inputs_ as _values_, so splicing a macro in and expecting the source forms to be available is even harder.
2018-05-03T17:39:36Z drastik: .ud powry
2018-05-03T17:39:42Z drastik: wrong channel
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2018-05-03T18:32:22Z foojin: What is the purpose of lambda as a symbol? I know that lambda as a macro inserts a (function ...) around an inner lambda, but is the inner one a mere symbol that doesn't "do" anything unless handed to "function"?
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2018-05-03T18:35:32Z jackdaniel: symbol lambda denotes a lambda expression
2018-05-03T18:35:41Z jackdaniel: and lambda expression may be used when normally you'd use a function name
2018-05-03T18:35:53Z jackdaniel: so it is a literate function structure
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2018-05-03T18:37:47Z edgar-rft: foojin: how can om
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2018-05-03T18:38:32Z edgar-rft: foojin: how can one write a LAMBDA macro without LAMBDA being a symbol?
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2018-05-03T18:39:33Z cgay: foojin, you seem to have some specific code in mind. Paste it somewhere so we can see?
2018-05-03T18:39:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: edgar-rft: Maybe flet and return a function in the body?
2018-05-03T18:40:36Z MichaelRaskin: edgar-rft: I think they mean that CLHS has «Symbol LAMBDA» separately from «Macro LAMBDA»
2018-05-03T18:40:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess it wouldn't work for ((lambda (a b c) (list a b c)) 1 2 3) code though
2018-05-03T18:40:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: need that #'funcall
2018-05-03T18:41:22Z foojin: cgay: Actually I don't. I just want to understand if there's something like "function" which handles 'lambda in a special way.
2018-05-03T18:41:55Z MichaelRaskin: I think that moth LAMBDA and SETF are just for FUNCTION
2018-05-03T18:42:01Z MichaelRaskin: (as symbols)
2018-05-03T18:42:23Z foojin: That is, is 'LAMBDA something more that just a syntax convention for invoking FUNCTION?
2018-05-03T18:42:33Z MichaelRaskin: Well, SETF can be also used in a DEFUN
2018-05-03T18:42:54Z Bike: (function (lambda ...)) means a function, yes. That's what the "Symbol LAMBDA" entry in the CLHS is about.
2018-05-03T18:43:39Z phoe: foojin: there's no function that handles "symbol LAMBDA" differently. It's the evaluator that handles it differently.
2018-05-03T18:43:53Z phoe: The CAR of each function call may be either a symbol that names a function, or a LAMBDA form.
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2018-05-03T18:44:16Z phoe: If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like (foo ...) then it calls the function FOO.
2018-05-03T18:44:23Z Bike: yeah, it's treated specially in lambda forms,and (function ...) does as well.
2018-05-03T18:44:34Z phoe: If the evaluator wants to evaluate a list that looks like ((lambda (...) ...) ...) then it calls the anonymous function denoted by the lambda form.
2018-05-03T18:44:36Z Bike: that's what the "symbol LAMBDA" entry is about.
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2018-05-03T18:45:33Z foojin: phoe: But isn't it expanded to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) in that case too?
2018-05-03T18:45:49Z Bike: no.
2018-05-03T18:45:57Z Bike: it is a special case of the evaluator, not a macroexpansion.
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2018-05-03T18:46:23Z Bike: the CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally. That's why it can only be a symbol or a lambda expression.
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2018-05-03T18:47:28Z foojin: Bike: So when it sees a form like this, it skips expansion for the (LAMBDA ...) and handles it directly?
2018-05-03T18:47:53Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-03T18:48:16Z Bike: Do you understand that, say, ((foo bar) baz) is not a valid lisp form?
2018-05-03T18:48:23Z Bike: The CAR of a cons being evaluated is not evaluated normally.
2018-05-03T18:49:22Z foojin: Yes, but I thougnt that it doesn't inhibit macro expansion.
2018-05-03T18:50:06Z cgay: foojin, there are no macros involved here.
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2018-05-03T18:52:18Z phoe: foojin: that is not a macro
2018-05-03T18:52:24Z Bike: why would it do macroexpansion?
2018-05-03T18:52:41Z Bike: (<symbol> ...) is valid. ((lambda ...) ...) is valid. everything else is invalid, so there's no need to macroexpand the car
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2018-05-03T18:54:15Z foojin: I see. So, except for that and lambda-as-a-macro case, LAMBDA doesn't have any other special meaning, right?
2018-05-03T18:54:22Z phoe: correct
2018-05-03T18:55:15Z phoe: it has two special uses: as a standard macro, and as a symbol naming an anonymous function in forms that are evaluated
2018-05-03T18:55:22Z phoe: other than that, it's just a symbol
2018-05-03T18:55:50Z Bike: and in FUNCTION.
2018-05-03T18:56:03Z phoe: oh right, this as well - sorry, I keep on forgetting about this
2018-05-03T18:57:12Z foojin: That's been bugging me for a while, and now I finally get it. Thanks a lot.
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2018-05-03T18:59:07Z edgar-rft: Is LAMBDA allowed to be used a s a variable name?
2018-05-03T18:59:18Z Bike: sure.
2018-05-03T18:59:23Z phoe: edgar-rft: (let ((lambda 42)) (+ lambda 100))
2018-05-03T19:00:10Z phoe: edgar-rft: all symbols can be used as variable names, except 1) constants cannot be shadowed, 2) things get weird with symbols naming special variables and symbol macros
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2018-05-03T19:00:33Z edgar-rft: okay, but (defvar lambda ...) gives here: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated
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2018-05-03T19:01:08Z phoe: edgar-rft: ha, you can't do that.
2018-05-03T19:01:14Z phoe: it only applies to local variables.
2018-05-03T19:01:32Z phoe: globally proclaiming any symbol from the COMMON-LISP package special is undefined.
2018-05-03T19:01:48Z p_l: but you can use LAMBDA in different symbol, of course
2018-05-03T19:01:56Z phoe: edgar-rft:
2018-05-03T19:01:58Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2018-05-03T19:01:58Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2018-05-03T19:02:29Z edgar-rft: phoe: thanks for CLHS link!
2018-05-03T19:02:47Z phoe: gosh, these chapter names are really weird sometimes
2018-05-03T19:02:53Z phoe: "Some Exceptions to Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs"
2018-05-03T19:03:02Z phoe: I mean, it makes sense
2018-05-03T19:03:06Z phoe: but is kinda long
2018-05-03T19:03:36Z edgar-rft: that's why I couldn't remember the CLHS chapter :-)
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2018-05-03T19:07:35Z phoe: "Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code"
2018-05-03T19:07:43Z phoe: 11.1.2.1.2.1.1.3.1.42
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2018-05-03T19:08:47Z edgar-rft: is this the longest?
2018-05-03T19:09:13Z phoe: edgar-rft: no, it actually doesn't exist.
2018-05-03T19:09:31Z edgar-rft: then I can use it as a variable name?
2018-05-03T19:09:36Z phoe: ...but, judging by your confusion, it certainly could.
2018-05-03T19:09:42Z phoe: edgar-rft: ...what as a variable name
2018-05-03T19:10:08Z phoe: because I just imagined (defvar *some-exceptions-to-constraints-to-...-safe-code* ..)
2018-05-03T19:10:11Z p_l: (defun |Some Exceptions to Constraints to Abridged Collection of Rules about the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Portable Programs Adhering to the Definition of the Standard for Safe Code| () 'dafuq )
2018-05-03T19:10:23Z phoe: just no
2018-05-03T19:10:37Z p_l: JUST YES
2018-05-03T19:10:49Z edgar-rft: SOME-EXCEPTIONS-TO-CONSTRAINTS-TO-ABRIDGED-COLLECTION-OF-RULES-ABOUT-THE-COMMON-LISP-PACKAGE-FOR-CONFORMING-PORTABLE-PROGRAMS-ADHERING-TO-THE-DEFINITION-OF-THE-STANDARD-FOR-SAFE-CODE
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2018-05-03T19:11:22Z phoe: edgar-rft: quick, get this on quicklisp before Xach notices that it makes completely no sense
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2018-05-03T19:12:14Z edgar-rft: if you look at PJB's code long enough, I'm sure it's already there
2018-05-03T19:12:29Z phoe: ...touché
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2018-05-03T19:19:48Z ealfonso: I wonder if it's very hard to get into a running lisp to change a value. or to force execution of a save-lisp-and-die, change something, and restart
2018-05-03T19:20:17Z phoe: ealfonso: um, wait - get into a running lisp to change a value?
2018-05-03T19:20:50Z phoe: what do you mean?
2018-05-03T19:21:34Z ealfonso: phoe I have a long-running service where I would like to change something that isn't configurable except by changing a variable's value
2018-05-03T19:22:14Z ealfonso: phoe probably a silly question and not too important. but I know using gdb it is possible to attach to a running process and change things around
2018-05-03T19:22:36Z MichaelRaskin: For Lisp you could want to use SLIME
2018-05-03T19:23:03Z MichaelRaskin: Or just run the service inside a normal SBCL instance inside screen/tmux, connect and issue the (setf …)
2018-05-03T19:24:01Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin can I use SLIME to connect to something that doesn't expose a swank server? how do I 'connect' to issue the (setf ...)?
2018-05-03T19:24:11Z phoe: ealfonso: make it run a swank server
2018-05-03T19:24:26Z phoe: you usually want these on long-running services anyway in order to introspect and debug the image
2018-05-03T19:24:26Z MichaelRaskin: What kind of control do you have over the service?
2018-05-03T19:24:38Z MichaelRaskin: Meh. REPL for the win.
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2018-05-03T19:25:04Z ealfonso: phoe that's a good point
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2018-05-03T19:25:19Z MichaelRaskin: But in any case, it is reasonable to have _some_ way to interact with the servuce
2018-05-03T19:25:59Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin yeah. I was curious if it could be done without a swank server, I have root access to the system where the process is running
2018-05-03T19:26:21Z MichaelRaskin: Is I/O redirected to /dev/null?
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2018-05-03T19:26:50Z ealfonso: MichaelRaskin no. I can probably get into ldb by issuing ^C
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2018-05-03T19:27:08Z phoe: ealfonso: theoretically you could open up a tmux session, make it run SBCL, run your service from it, and still have access to stdio
2018-05-03T19:27:22Z phoe: you can connect to the tmux and have the default REPL available.
2018-05-03T19:27:55Z ealfonso: phoe actually the process is compiled to an executable using buildapp, so it's not an interactive repl
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2018-05-03T19:28:54Z ealfonso: phoe anyway, I think the suggestion to add a swank server is probably a good idea
2018-05-03T19:29:19Z phoe: ealfonso: in this case, make it use swank and add a start-server call as a part of its execution hooks.
2018-05-03T19:30:10Z ealfonso: phoe yeah, I can do this if I'm willing to kill the currently running process. which I am
2018-05-03T19:31:20Z ealfonso: I guess I could also attach to the process using gdb. but I would probably have no idea what to do
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2018-05-03T19:31:53Z MichaelRaskin: gdb + moving GC sounds like a recipe for pain
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2018-05-03T20:12:56Z zxcvz: ERROR: invalid number of arguments: 2. Anyone know how to tell SBCL to tell me where the error actually is?
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2018-05-03T20:15:29Z ealfonso: zxcvz do you see a stack trace, are you using SLIME or plain repl?
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2018-05-03T20:15:56Z zxcvz: I don't get any stack trace. Using repl through Sublime.
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2018-05-03T20:18:25Z Xach: zxcvz: that will land you in the debugger, which starts out with "0]". :backtrace will show the backtrace.
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2018-05-03T20:19:59Z zxcvz: Xach: I just get the error message. I never enter the debugger.
2018-05-03T20:20:45Z Xach: zxcvz: oh. i haven't used Sublime, so I'm not sure what it might be doing, but if you are using the sbcl repl directly it will enter the debugger on error. I'm not sure how to get help with what sublime is doing, sorry.
2018-05-03T20:21:01Z Xach: with emacs and slime, "v" will jump from the frame to the error location. it is handy.
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2018-05-03T20:22:22Z ealfonso: zxcvz I also use emacs and slime and it makes for a good debugging experience
2018-05-03T20:22:30Z zxcvz: xach: I get the same result using sbcl directly.
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2018-05-03T20:23:03Z zxcvz: ealfonso: never fancied emacs unfortunately.
2018-05-03T20:23:06Z Xach: zxcvz: Interesting! What do you type that shows that error message?
2018-05-03T20:23:10Z ealfonso: zxcvz maybe something is trapping your error? are you using a framework or library?
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2018-05-03T20:25:52Z zxcvz: Xach: Running a program. Apparently I've made some change some where. A bit irritating with just an error message without the debugger.
2018-05-03T20:26:15Z Xach: zxcvz: yeah, definitely. what program, if you don't mind sharing?
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2018-05-03T20:35:43Z zxcvz: Xach: clisp managed to give me better feedback. Found the error.
2018-05-03T20:35:53Z zxcvz: ealfonso: solved it with clisp
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2018-05-03T20:38:40Z rme: it's nice to have multiple CL implementations
2018-05-03T20:39:22Z aeth: In, practice, though, if you use enough libraries you're only going to get it to run on SBCL, CCL, and maybe ECL. At least, the libraries I've happened to use.
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2018-05-03T20:43:09Z Xof: well, all CL implementations that I've found to play with today have the opposite behaviour for (:method-combination foo x) than I sort-of want
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2018-05-03T20:43:26Z Xof: I wonder how much code breaks if I make sbcl behave my way
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2018-05-03T20:44:18Z Xof: (probably very little: see previous discussions about no-one using long-form method combination)
2018-05-03T20:45:48Z Bike: you want it to evaluate?
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2018-05-03T20:46:05Z Bike: i'll tell you what you're breaking. my beautiful machine method combo
2018-05-03T20:47:04Z Xof: here, have one of these: '
2018-05-03T20:48:52Z Xof: I am imagining code a bit like (let ((shared (cons nil nil))) (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method foo (x) (car shared))) (defgeneric bar (x) (:method-combination weird shared) (:method bar (x) (cdr shared))))
2018-05-03T20:49:03Z Xof: where the method combination does stuff to shared
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2018-05-03T20:49:24Z Xof: I don't yet know if this is a good idea
2018-05-03T20:49:54Z Xof: but I know that it's not possible if you don't evaluate method combination args, whereas you can get the current de-facto standard behaviour by quoting everything
2018-05-03T20:50:15Z Xof: or choosing self-evaluating things for your mc arguments
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2018-05-03T20:52:48Z Xof: I don't know.  This is probably not the hill I should be trying to climb, let alone making my last stand on
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2018-05-03T20:54:09Z Bike: yeah, i don't see any reason not to evaluate really
2018-05-03T20:54:24Z Bike: i did the same thing a while back trying to figure out if the options returned by make-method-lambda are evaluated
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2018-05-04T00:11:06Z White_Flame: If I have a macro which should build up a hash table in a lexical scope for runtime code to use, what's the best way to do that?  (let ((table ,populated-table)) ...) doesn't seem to be valid source code
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2018-05-04T00:23:24Z Bike: what do you mean
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2018-05-04T00:30:20Z pfdietz: You want the code generated from the macro to refer to the same hash table everywhere?
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2018-05-04T00:45:33Z White_Flame: sorry, was afk for a bit.  I run a compiler at compile-time, contained to a lexical scope.  Some of its output should be exposed to the runtime as a hashtable.  This generated function body should be able to run multiple times, seeing the same (read-only) hashtable which was populated at compile-time
2018-05-04T00:46:31Z White_Flame: so it's not the same hash table everywhere; each instance of it should have its own table it sees
2018-05-04T00:47:47Z Bike: well, your code seems fine, so i'm missing something
2018-05-04T00:48:23Z White_Flame: I'm cleaning up old hacks, as well as fixing up code isn't working on new SBCL releases
2018-05-04T00:48:58Z White_Flame: so code isn't fine, but I'm also not sure that the crashes I'm hitting are related to this setup step
2018-05-04T00:49:12Z Bike: i mean, having a literal hash table there is valid.
2018-05-04T00:49:12Z White_Flame: however, it's a hack I wish to eliminate, so gathering thoughts on a way this could be done
2018-05-04T00:49:37Z White_Flame: hmm, interesting
2018-05-04T00:51:24Z White_Flame: that wasn't working years ago, hence lots of workarounds.  Might have been various pebcak problems
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2018-05-04T02:04:03Z aeth: White_Flame: I don't see it as a hack, I see it as a valuable feature... that you can trivially make custom classes/structs also be able to do.
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2018-05-04T02:05:55Z aeth: Trivial compile time evaluation is one of the last major remaining secret weapons CL has.
2018-05-04T02:07:22Z pfdietz: You could have multiple files using the macro, compiled at different times.  How do you resolve the hash table differences?
2018-05-04T02:08:49Z pfdietz: Ah wait, different hash tables in different places...
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2018-05-04T02:10:09Z pfdietz: One trick is to propagate values in the macroexpansion environment.  I've used that for compile time lexical information.
2018-05-04T02:10:34Z pfdietz: But that's for propagating information to other macros.
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2018-05-04T02:23:49Z White_Flame: aeth: the hack in place is to have a single global hashtable of hashtables, with gensyms per location doing a looup on invocation
2018-05-04T02:23:56Z White_Flame: *lookup
2018-05-04T02:24:54Z White_Flame: ie, the code tested originally which tried to place hashtables in source code blew up.  Now, I dont' recall if that was because of fasl loading or whatnot.  Almost every problem we hit seems to be because we do appliation servers that are deployed as executable images, which then load up more code at the deployment site
2018-05-04T02:25:32Z White_Flame: and the whole "just snapshot an image and resume" plays havoc with that model
2018-05-04T02:26:05Z Bike: well to dump a hash table all the keys and values need to be dumpable
2018-05-04T02:26:16Z Bike: so if the values are, say, functions, which can't be dumped, that's a problem
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2018-05-04T02:26:56Z White_Flame: um, yeah, the hashtable values contain functions
2018-05-04T02:27:44Z Bike: alright, so it won't work
2018-05-04T02:27:47Z Bike: my mistake
2018-05-04T02:27:51Z Bike: functions are not externalizable
2018-05-04T02:28:15Z White_Flame: ah, ok.  Then it makes sense that it didn't work
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2018-05-04T02:59:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-04T03:01:04Z clintm: Good morning, beach!
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2018-05-04T03:18:19Z aeth: White_Flame: What kind of functions? If they're 'foo instead of #'foo or lambda it should afaik be OK to funcall because it will look it up at runtime
2018-05-04T03:18:32Z White_Flame: they're functions generated by the compiler
2018-05-04T03:18:42Z aeth: You'd just need to make sure the symbol name is valid at runtime
2018-05-04T03:18:49Z Bike: 'foo instead of #'foo, known as "not functions"
2018-05-04T03:18:56Z aeth: Well funcalling a symbol
2018-05-04T03:19:02Z White_Flame: function objects
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2018-05-04T03:21:57Z _berke_: hi.  I recall reading that there was something like a with-symbols macro but I can't find it
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2018-05-04T03:22:33Z beach: WITH-GENSYMS is a popular one.
2018-05-04T03:22:49Z _berke_: oh that's what it was.  thanks
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2018-05-04T03:23:20Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-05-04T03:26:16Z jack_rabbit: Woo! My cl-gopher library is now in quicklisp!
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2018-05-04T03:28:26Z _berke_: now slime question.  when you have erroneous code and hit C-c C-k slime asks you if you want to load the fasl.  I don't, how can I get slime to STFU in that situation.
2018-05-04T03:29:57Z _berke_: oh wait I found it, slime load failed fasl in customization group
2018-05-04T03:30:04Z _berke_: they thought of everything
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2018-05-04T03:45:55Z jack_rabbit: How do I get the documentation string from a defpackage?
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2018-05-04T03:52:00Z beach: clhs documentation
2018-05-04T03:52:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-05-04T03:52:25Z beach: jack_rabbit: Look at that page under "Packages:"
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2018-05-04T03:53:25Z jack_rabbit: lispworks has been down for me. :( That's why I'm asking here.
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2018-05-04T03:53:39Z jack_rabbit: my usual clhs site seems to be down as well.
2018-05-04T03:53:50Z beach: Why don't you have it locally?
2018-05-04T03:54:11Z jack_rabbit: because I'm an idiot.
2018-05-04T03:54:17Z beach: I just accessed that page on LispWorks, so it is up again.
2018-05-04T03:54:25Z jack_rabbit: hmmmm...
2018-05-04T03:54:54Z aeth: Personally, I use the online quicklisp because I can search it through !l1sp on DuckDuckGo (that's actually one of several supported sites), and I have a local copy as a backup for when the website is down or I am offline.
2018-05-04T03:55:00Z aeth: It's nice to have the backup, though.
2018-05-04T03:55:03Z clintm: I swear there is, or used to be, a ql-installable package that starts a server in whatever image you load it on that has it.
2018-05-04T03:56:22Z clintm: huh, I guess not.
2018-05-04T03:57:44Z jack_rabbit: hmmmm. (documentation 'package-name t) does not return my docstring... I must be doing something wrong in the defpackage.
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2018-05-04T03:58:05Z Bike: (documentation (find-package package-name) t)
2018-05-04T03:58:06Z jack_rabbit: ahh, wait.
2018-05-04T03:58:07Z beach: Yes, it says explicitly that it has to be a package object.
2018-05-04T03:58:07Z jack_rabbit: Yes.
2018-05-04T03:58:22Z jack_rabbit: Bike, beach, just figured it out. Thanks.
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2018-05-04T03:59:21Z beach: jack_rabbit: In the long run, you will save a lot of time by learning how to interpret the (sometimes a bit cryptic) dictionary pages of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2018-05-04T04:00:00Z jack_rabbit: beach, Yes, I need to get better at that. I realized my mistake, but not quick enough.
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2018-05-04T04:00:50Z beach: Sure.  You are right to ask.  I am just giving you hints for future activities. :)
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2018-05-04T04:10:13Z jack_rabbit: beach, Thanks. :)
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2018-05-04T04:22:28Z _berke_: I'm trying some cl-cuda examples and I wrote a simple macro, but as soon as I use quasiquotations I get a ton of SBCL warnings.  https://pastebin.com/FMpVhysG  (test1 totoro) is fine, (test2 totoro) gives warnings
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2018-05-04T04:24:01Z _berke_: the warnings: https://pastebin.com/NhDRHwVL
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2018-05-04T04:32:41Z _berke_: interestingly if I use (intern (symbol-name (gensym))) instead of straight up (gensym) it works, but I have no idea why or if this is correct
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2018-05-04T04:59:20Z Bike: use (gensym) where? is with-gensyms your own macro?
2018-05-04T05:00:32Z beach: _berke_: It is not.  You would get all kinds of conflicts in nested macro calls.
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2018-05-04T06:19:26Z shka: hey folks
2018-05-04T06:19:55Z shka: what is your opinion on check-type versus signaling your own condition?
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2018-05-04T06:47:36Z pillton: shka: I usually do (assert (typep x type)) to avoid the use-value restart messing with type inference.
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2018-05-04T06:56:56Z _death: won't the new value be checked as well?
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2018-05-04T07:03:05Z pillton: It appears not.
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2018-05-04T07:04:43Z pillton: Oh it is checked. The fact that an arbitrary value can be stored in the variable is probably the problem.
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2018-05-04T07:14:30Z _death: seems sbcl has no issue with it?
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2018-05-04T07:36:10Z pillton: Hmm.. I'd have to find the problem I thought it was an issue for.
2018-05-04T07:38:02Z pillton: This is the best I can do at the moment: https://hastebin.com/xuriqocopa.lisp
2018-05-04T07:39:04Z pillton: I have to run. I'll check in later.
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2018-05-04T11:25:58Z jeosol: jmercouris?
2018-05-04T11:26:35Z jeosol: I tried to get you here for a while. been away from here.
2018-05-04T11:27:13Z jeosol: I did not hear back from Mike Maul yet, and it seems I will proceed with the ML examples later, just start and out and change things based on reviews later.
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2018-05-04T11:40:38Z capitaomorte: Hi there. Is there a MAP* function in CL that APPLYies the function to each element instead of FUNCALLing it?
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2018-05-04T11:42:46Z flip214: capitaomorte: not in CL, no. but it's very easy to do, right?
2018-05-04T11:43:18Z capitaomorte: yeah, of course. I was looking for a concise idiom
2018-05-04T11:44:16Z capitaomorte: the goal is to process an array of JSON objects (converted to plists) using a destructuring lambda spec.
2018-05-04T11:44:42Z xificurC: you mean like (defun mapap (f x) (mapcar (lambda (y) (apply f y)) x))
2018-05-04T11:45:06Z capitaomorte: xificurC: yes
2018-05-04T11:45:55Z xificurC: capitaomorte: seems pretty concise to me
2018-05-04T11:46:35Z capitaomorte: yeah, consice isn't the right word, I meant built-in
2018-05-04T11:50:08Z shka: capitaomorte: (map nil (alexandria:curry #'apply function) sequence)
2018-05-04T11:50:20Z shka: something like that would do i think
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2018-05-04T11:51:44Z capitaomorte: yeah, that's not bad, and you use mapcar if you coerce sequence
2018-05-04T11:52:19Z shka: mapcar won't work on vectors, though
2018-05-04T11:52:31Z capitaomorte: you coerce them
2018-05-04T11:52:55Z capitaomorte: (mapcar (alexandria:curry #'apply function) (coerce sequence 'list)) should work
2018-05-04T11:53:18Z shka: not a huge fan of that, but yeah, it will work
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2018-05-04T11:53:42Z capitaomorte: who knows what MAP is doing under the hood... :-)
2018-05-04T11:54:14Z shka: hopefully it does not do that
2018-05-04T11:54:33Z shka: beacuse memory and stuff
2018-05-04T11:54:47Z capitaomorte: why do you think it's bad? For short sequences its OK i think
2018-05-04T11:55:19Z capitaomorte: shka: I see what you mean
2018-05-04T11:55:26Z shka: because out of the sudden algorithm that is O(1) for memory becomes O(n)
2018-05-04T11:55:34Z shka: and that's baaaaaaaaaaad
2018-05-04T11:55:50Z capitaomorte: I don't think your map solution is O(1), is it?
2018-05-04T11:56:07Z shka: especially since large lists can require huge ammounts of memory
2018-05-04T11:56:15Z shka: damn, even iteration on lists is slower
2018-05-04T11:56:27Z shka: capitaomorte: for memory? sure it is
2018-05-04T11:56:32Z shka: obviously not for the runtime
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2018-05-04T11:57:26Z capitaomorte: then use a compiler macro to coerce away the coerce
2018-05-04T11:57:30Z capitaomorte: :-)
2018-05-04T11:58:00Z shka: capitaomorte: that works just for literals
2018-05-04T11:59:19Z flip214: shka: yeah, well, an explizit LOOP seems to be faster than the (MAP (COERCE)).... naturally.
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2018-05-04T11:59:27Z capitaomorte: I don't know. I never tried it, I don't see why it couldn't recognize the MAPCAR/COERCE pattern and turn it into your MAP
2018-05-04T11:59:50Z flip214: although I'd hoped that this would be simply dispatched to a different MAPCAR function that takes a simple-vector as input.
2018-05-04T12:00:17Z capitaomorte: but anyway, you're probably right for large seqs it's a bad ideia
2018-05-04T12:00:49Z shka: capitaomorte: well, in theory it could, but why would you implement something like that for such trivial case that can be fixed by writting code properly?
2018-05-04T12:00:50Z flip214: a (MAP 'LIST ...) becomes just a call to SB-KERNEL:%MAP-TO-LIST-ARITY-1 on SBCL
2018-05-04T12:01:33Z capitaomorte: shka: because OCD, obviously
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2018-05-04T12:01:43Z flip214: shka: because it might be easy to detect and optimize in the compiler, too?
2018-05-04T12:01:52Z flip214: and that would help for macro-generated code as well
2018-05-04T12:02:16Z flip214: think a macro that did MAPCAR and the input was a COERCE, because the macro "needs" a list...
2018-05-04T12:02:24Z capitaomorte: anyway, making garbage is not as bad as people often assume, at least on Allegro
2018-05-04T12:02:28Z shka: flip214: well, you can simply stick to map 'list in your macro code
2018-05-04T12:03:11Z shka: fancyness is not required here
2018-05-04T12:03:23Z capitaomorte: it's sometimes worse to let objects go into its "oldspace" where the GC has a much harder time finding them.
2018-05-04T12:03:59Z capitaomorte: but this is a detail of some optimization workshop I mostly forgot about
2018-05-04T12:04:31Z shka: capitaomorte: it is ok as long as your objects won't simply exhaust whole heap
2018-05-04T12:04:44Z shka: and coercing very large vector to list can do do that
2018-05-04T12:04:52Z flip214: shka: that would be slower if the input cannot be proven to be a list, I guess. not sure if there are other drawbacks.
2018-05-04T12:05:00Z capitaomorte: yep, agree exhausting heap is not good :-)
2018-05-04T12:05:07Z flip214: shka: but basically you're right.
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2018-05-04T12:08:00Z jmercouris: jeosol: Ok, sounds good, too bad you didn't get a response
2018-05-04T12:08:17Z shka: besides, triggering GC hurts those who aim to obtain real time
2018-05-04T12:10:08Z capitaomorte: know anyone who's trying to obtain real time in CL? (asking honestly)
2018-05-04T12:10:37Z shka: capitaomorte: hard real time? nope. But take a look at #lispgames
2018-05-04T12:10:56Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
2018-05-04T12:11:05Z shka: theemacsshibe[m]: greetings!
2018-05-04T12:11:17Z phoe: heyy
2018-05-04T12:11:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: Good evening shka
2018-05-04T12:11:56Z capitaomorte: shka: yeah, but "triggering GC" is more than just a binary thing. In many situations, if i remember that lecture, it's better to trigger it very often.
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2018-05-04T12:12:41Z capitaomorte: shka: and actually better to use non-destructive, garbage-making, list-processing, for example
2018-05-04T12:12:46Z jmercouris: capitaomorte: yes, there is someone aeth I believe
2018-05-04T12:12:52Z jmercouris: he is working on a "no-consing" main game loop
2018-05-04T12:13:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: I suppose doing it more gives you less crap to collect per GC cycle
2018-05-04T12:13:25Z shka: capitaomorte: on average, you are right!
2018-05-04T12:13:36Z capitaomorte: theemacsshibe[m]: more or less
2018-05-04T12:13:39Z jmercouris: is he though? isn't that largely GC implementation dependent
2018-05-04T12:13:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: Although we're passed mark and sweep collectors my knowledge resides in, wouldn't there be some constant factor in marking or grouping used data?
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2018-05-04T12:13:54Z jmercouris: I bet the number of objects in the universe is more important than how many need to be cleaned up
2018-05-04T12:13:55Z shka: jmercouris: large heaps is problem on it's own
2018-05-04T12:14:02Z capitaomorte: jmercouris: yes, for sure. The lecture compared Allegro with SBCL and results were quite different
2018-05-04T12:14:39Z flip214: if you manage to work with a fixed amount of memory (preallocated everything), the GC won't be triggered later on
2018-05-04T12:14:42Z jmercouris: there's a reason why no games do free /malloc in c++ during gametime
2018-05-04T12:14:48Z shka: well, we have to distinguish average performance and variance in expected time to finish
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2018-05-04T12:15:06Z shka: if you are going real time, you are looking at the second parameter
2018-05-04T12:15:17Z jmercouris: I think the key is to keep the performance as constant as possible
2018-05-04T12:15:29Z jmercouris: what would you prefer, a game that ran at 200fps but dropped to 5 every 10 seconds, or a game that runs at 20 fps?
2018-05-04T12:15:37Z shka: for real time, yes
2018-05-04T12:15:49Z shka: for anything else? meh
2018-05-04T12:15:54Z shka: nobody cares
2018-05-04T12:15:57Z jmercouris: I care
2018-05-04T12:16:10Z jmercouris: I'm just kidding, btw :P
2018-05-04T12:16:16Z shka: well, right now i am running clustering algorithm
2018-05-04T12:16:22Z jmercouris: Ah, yes, good times, which one?
2018-05-04T12:16:36Z shka: it will take like 10 minutes to chew data
2018-05-04T12:16:43Z jmercouris: you must have a very small dataset
2018-05-04T12:16:45Z shka: i don't care if it is real time :P
2018-05-04T12:17:01Z shka: around 418 thousand samples
2018-05-04T12:17:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: Idea: replace GC algorithms with prediction if the user cares about response time
2018-05-04T12:17:34Z shka: but it is CLARA so it does not care about data set size
2018-05-04T12:17:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: Bad times: when you're about to blow someone's head out.
2018-05-04T12:17:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: Good times: when you're figuring out how to deal with the cave spiders about to kill you next turn.
2018-05-04T12:17:49Z jmercouris: theemacsshibe[m]: games already do this
2018-05-04T12:17:56Z jmercouris: loading screens in between levels, stuff like that
2018-05-04T12:18:03Z jmercouris: deallocation and reallocating new assets
2018-05-04T12:18:33Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's it, I'm suing them for taking my idea before I knew I had it!
2018-05-04T12:18:49Z jmercouris: best of luck :)
2018-05-04T12:19:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: Not even, I'm saying when the game is quiet a clever engine could GC or reallocate without problems
2018-05-04T12:19:16Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: "Dynamic Optimizations for SBCL Garbage Collection"
2018-05-04T12:19:19Z flip214: was a talk at ELS 2018
2018-05-04T12:19:21Z jmercouris: theemacsshibe[m]: that is also already done
2018-05-04T12:19:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: For example, if I'm waiting at site A and everyone's at B, might as well collect since no one's going to rush in and blow me up.
2018-05-04T12:19:48Z theemacsshibe[m]: Wow, nice.
2018-05-04T12:19:50Z flip214: but it seems that the paper is not online
2018-05-04T12:19:56Z shka: oh, i really can't wait for els videos to go online!
2018-05-04T12:19:56Z phoe: flip214: huh? it ought to be
2018-05-04T12:20:01Z phoe: the whole proceedings should be online
2018-05-04T12:20:16Z phoe: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/static/proceedings/2018.pdf
2018-05-04T12:20:33Z phoe: page 12
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2018-05-04T12:21:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: It could also be argued using digital bombs to destroy digital models of nice maps could also be a form of GC.
2018-05-04T12:21:38Z flip214: phoe: sorry, I didn't find the presentation. yeah, the paper is in the PDF as well.
2018-05-04T12:22:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: Okay I have a new game, I'm selling it for (sqrt -1) dollars on Steam with vim keybinds
2018-05-04T12:22:16Z phoe: flip214: oh, correct.
2018-05-04T12:22:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: You have two teams and a heap of thingamabobs between them
2018-05-04T12:22:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: One team tries to save the thingamabobs and the other tries to break them somehow. Broken thingamabobs are freed on the server.
2018-05-04T12:23:17Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: http://psdoom.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
2018-05-04T12:23:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: This is like that Doom thing where monsters are Unix processes but more dangerous
2018-05-04T12:24:59Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: so you're thinking about the "all instances" thing[1] and doing randomized CHANGE-CLASS on them on a production system?
2018-05-04T12:25:02Z flip214: Ad 1: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3202586082692327@naggum.net.html
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2018-05-04T12:26:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: It's 10:30 pm here.
2018-05-04T12:26:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hi Cal
2018-05-04T12:26:46Z calher: I'm lucky I saw you in another channel and found your freenode nick.
2018-05-04T12:27:22Z flip214: theemacsshibe[m]: Melbourne?
2018-05-04T12:27:24Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm saying we get rid of the GC and let players decide what should be freed by shooting representations of them.
2018-05-04T12:27:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: How'd ya know?
2018-05-04T12:28:15Z flip214: guessed from your time zone
2018-05-04T12:28:30Z flip214: No worries, mate ;)
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2018-05-04T12:30:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: I have plans to use emus with WD40 to take out rust users
2018-05-04T12:32:20Z flip214: what about the go people?
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2018-05-04T12:33:29Z shka: flip214: large force of gophers with automatic weaponry
2018-05-04T12:34:23Z theemacsshibe[m]: Kangaroos.
2018-05-04T12:34:57Z shka: yes, they will never see it coming
2018-05-04T12:34:57Z beach: DeepMind.
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2018-05-04T12:37:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: This is Australia, we couldn't do anything with our copper tin can networks.
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2018-05-04T12:43:00Z theemacsshibe[m] gives magic GNU🦄PONUT a vegetable burger she got from the barbeque
2018-05-04T12:43:49Z GNUPONUT[m] eats the Burger and licks no-defun-allowed
2018-05-04T12:44:15Z theemacsshibe[m]: :3
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2018-05-04T12:47:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: Alright, back to Lisp.
2018-05-04T12:50:02Z calher speaks with lithp
2018-05-04T12:50:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: Why isn't tail recursion something we do a lot in Lisp? (Scheme is pretty much built on it, having no imperative style loops, but CL isn't very good at them.)
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2018-05-04T12:50:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: If I wanted to write some function as a normal maths thing, I'd probably use tail recursion.
2018-05-04T12:50:49Z calher: Because Lisp is a bastard.
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2018-05-04T12:51:23Z theemacsshibe[m] sp eak si nto ngu es
2018-05-04T12:51:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: :|
2018-05-04T12:52:25Z theemacsshibe[m]: | ;; in case anyone is reading symbols today
2018-05-04T12:53:56Z p_l: theemacsshibe[m]: it's a matter of style - some code depends a lot on tail calls, especially when wirtten for implementations that do TCO, but generally we enjoy having powerful iteration constructs
2018-05-04T12:54:23Z p_l: some of the code normally enabled by TCO resurfaces in CL in much, much weirder forms...
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2018-05-04T13:02:12Z shka: p_l: ha! let me show ya! https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/ee8c3d07e1e2b636b04eaa76abb28ec7e33dfb18/src/utils/macros.lisp#L182
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2018-05-04T15:06:55Z jeosol: jmercouris: I will work start working the machine learning example applications and update them over time. What I mean is, could start with simple data structures, and eventually replace with libraries after I make additional research
2018-05-04T15:08:35Z jeosol: I will find some domain to put the examples over time. I think I saw some blas related info in the array chapter on CL cookbook.
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2018-05-04T16:13:35Z jmercouris: jeosol: what is "blas"?
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2018-05-04T16:16:06Z jeosol: jmercouris: BLAS and LAPACK and algebra libraries for solving things like eigen-value problems, solving for x in Ax=b type of problems.
2018-05-04T16:17:07Z jmercouris: ah very cool, I did not know about these
2018-05-04T16:17:15Z jeosol: For instance, if I do, linear regression problem, I could solve the problem with matrix inversion (small problems) or go with conjugate gradient descent.
2018-05-04T16:17:56Z jeosol: My plan is to start raw, e.g., use loop for the conjugate gradient descent calculations
2018-05-04T16:18:26Z jeosol: and then later, I can replace functionalities with existing libraries like CLML and MGL
2018-05-04T16:18:59Z jmercouris: I assume this is only one problem space you have in mind right?
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2018-05-04T16:19:26Z jmercouris: You are probably thinking about other data sets / models as well, or are you only interested in linear regressions?
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2018-05-04T16:27:58Z jeosol: jmercouris: No, it is general, I am trying to show that CL can be use for these ML problems.
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2018-05-04T16:28:13Z jeosol: problem is that it could be painful given the tons of resources in python and R,
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2018-05-04T16:28:40Z jeosol: my plan is to reproduce the problems in the cousera machine learning course for instance. It is lot of problems, but I could do it over time.
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2018-05-04T16:29:37Z jeosol: the problems conver different algorithms linear regression, logsitic regression, neural nets, SVM's, PCA, etc. With such effort, we can start aggregating CL resources for these applications.
2018-05-04T16:29:51Z obi-cons-cdrobi: jeosol: more traditional algorithms (like decision tree, etc.) have very nice Lisp implementations. I've been thinking about throwing together some NN library, but haven't had time. I hacked together a decision tree implementation that I wouldn't mind sharing, if you're interested
2018-05-04T16:29:55Z jeosol: My quick check of CLML shows they have some tools for these
2018-05-04T16:30:17Z jeosol: oh sure, obi-cons-cdrobi
2018-05-04T16:30:25Z jeosol: and I forgot to mention NNs
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2018-05-04T16:31:16Z jeosol: I recently looked at Gabor Melis code for the Higgs Boson project, I was able to bring to compile with latest SBCL, but lack of GPU makes the training take more than 24 hours Gabor mentioned
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2018-05-04T16:32:29Z jeosol: I used C4.5 decision tree algorithm through lisp via system call for a project a while ago.
2018-05-04T16:34:19Z obi-cons-cdrobi: jeosol: https://github.com/obicons/decision-tree. It's a little rough, I hacked it together for a uni project a year ago or so. But it does work and adequately demonstrates why symbolic computation is good for solving a specific subset of AI problems
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2018-05-04T16:34:46Z obi-cons-cdrobi: It needs some small modifications to support continuous data types, but as-is supports discrete values quite well
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2018-05-04T16:35:46Z jeosol: Great thanks for the link. I see you used ID3 algorithm
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2018-05-04T16:37:36Z obi-cons-cdrobi: yep. I played around with this a lot in SBCL to get it to generate somewhat efficient machine-code (hence the generous usage of symbolic identifiers). By the time that I was done, the disassembled code was actually informative.
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2018-05-04T16:39:17Z jmercouris: jeosol: interesting goal, have you set-up an organization yet?
2018-05-04T16:39:35Z jeosol: what do you mean by organization?
2018-05-04T16:39:54Z jmercouris: well, an organization to work on the code, maybe a github organization, or some gitlab page
2018-05-04T16:39:58Z jmercouris: maybe it's not so important early on
2018-05-04T16:40:04Z jeosol: That is what I thought but I didn't want to assume
2018-05-04T16:40:11Z jmercouris: but if you'd like to collaborate/merge resources from several places, might become uesful
2018-05-04T16:40:15Z jmercouris: s/uesful/useful
2018-05-04T16:40:16Z jeosol: No, I have not, but I do have a github and gitlab account
2018-05-04T16:40:33Z jeosol: Yes, this was why I reached out to the CLML guys.
2018-05-04T16:40:47Z jeosol: Like work the examples using that library as much as possible.
2018-05-04T16:40:51Z jmercouris: well, since they are unresponsive, you know what to do, make a new standard :D
2018-05-04T16:40:56Z jeosol: They do have a nice wine dataset example.
2018-05-04T16:41:38Z jeosol: I can work through those examples, I want to make sure it is clear and logical. The course goes through different realistic applications. Eventually, I will have to pull a lot of resources, change libraries, functionalities, etc
2018-05-04T16:42:01Z jeosol: this was why I wanted reviewers, that will look at things, make suggestions, etc. Seems I got two so far.
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2018-05-04T16:43:25Z jeosol: I also sent an email to Gabor about using his code, didn't get any reply. I assume his was busy. Since he put it in public domain, may be he didn't matter, but I wanted to pick his brain on where he thinks work needs to be done
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2018-05-04T16:45:35Z jeosol: jmercouris: I think the organization part is important. I will think of where to make the posts for instance. I will also need to know that people use when they intersperse code and write up. I have seen some CL-jupyter or notebook
2018-05-04T16:45:41Z jeosol: but I have not used any of those
2018-05-04T16:46:11Z jmercouris: probably mostly org mode with babel
2018-05-04T16:48:48Z jeosol: ok, cool. I have used org mode, will check for the latest tools.
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2018-05-04T16:50:15Z jeosol: http://mmaul.github.io/clml/
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2018-05-04T16:50:50Z jeosol: That is Mike Maul's github clml link
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2018-05-04T16:52:34Z jmercouris: jeosol: maybe a good start would be to take his project, and finish documenting it
2018-05-04T16:52:38Z jeosol: there is a lot of algorithms there already, blas/lapack wrappers, pca, etc. I will reach out again, possibly another avenue.
2018-05-04T16:52:50Z jmercouris: there is just so much documentation missing
2018-05-04T16:53:01Z jeosol: jmercouris: I agree
2018-05-04T16:53:21Z jmercouris: my only real issue is the LGPL license, so very limiting
2018-05-04T16:53:24Z jeosol: They have good starting base already, and it will make sense to work off that and collaborate with them.
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2018-05-04T16:53:31Z jeosol: Oh, I didn't see that
2018-05-04T16:53:55Z jmercouris: I don't want to start a holy war, but I feel like lisp should always be BSD
2018-05-04T16:54:14Z jeosol: hmm, interesting
2018-05-04T16:54:21Z jmercouris: especially due to the "library" nature of the language
2018-05-04T16:54:24Z random-nick: jmercouris: why?
2018-05-04T16:54:46Z jmercouris: random-nick: because it's so easy to build off of another package compared to other languages, and license restrictions incompatibilties can be a huge mess
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2018-05-04T16:55:32Z jeosol: gabor's mgl is MIT licence but mostly NN
2018-05-04T16:55:36Z random-nick: just have it all GPL
2018-05-04T16:55:36Z jmercouris: when developing applications, GPL is okay, but when developing libs, I learn towards BSD
2018-05-04T16:55:50Z jmercouris: s/learn/lean
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2018-05-04T16:56:08Z jmercouris: random-nick: what if somebody wishes to use the lib in a commercial product?
2018-05-04T16:56:35Z random-nick: commercial does not always imply proprietary
2018-05-04T16:57:06Z jmercouris: random-nick: what if somebody wishes to use the lib in a *viable commercial product?
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2018-05-04T16:57:27Z jmercouris: I can count the amount of succesful open source companies on one hand, but anyways, this is off-topic and the war I did not wish to start
2018-05-04T16:57:36Z jeosol: I didn't even see this part when I initially reached out to Mike
2018-05-04T16:58:14Z jeosol: hopefully, this doesn't add a big kink, i.e., they may be willing to relax things.
2018-05-04T16:59:01Z jeosol: My plan is to document the examples and put it in public domain, and since they have stuff going, it seem reasonable to align with them
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2018-05-04T16:59:22Z jmercouris: yeah, you can even license your own changes in a different way
2018-05-04T16:59:31Z jmercouris: maybe the lib could be frozen and used as a dependency
2018-05-04T16:59:39Z jmercouris: and then you just build on top of it, override it, document it, whatever
2018-05-04T16:59:52Z jmercouris: still a little restrictive, but less so
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2018-05-04T17:02:05Z jeosol: good points jmercouris
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2018-05-04T17:02:38Z jeosol: Well, if it is frozen, and they want to hand it over to another maintainer or sth, that will be fine.
2018-05-04T17:03:03Z jmercouris: yeah, just won't be able to necessarily merge things upstream, which is fine, since development has ceased
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2018-05-04T17:03:34Z jeosol: eventually have a way to merge it with gabor's mgl library and viola, we have one big ML lib
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2018-05-04T17:04:03Z jmercouris: yeah, could be pretty cool
2018-05-04T17:04:26Z jmercouris: probably isn't too hard to put the two systems into one, the harder part will be making the API uniform
2018-05-04T17:05:57Z jeosol: I agree, I take that back
2018-05-04T17:06:04Z jeosol: it will be better to leave them separate
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2018-05-04T17:06:38Z jeosol: I looked at Gabor's code in some a bit of detail. Excellent features with flexibility to take advantage of CUDA if available
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2018-05-04T17:07:34Z jeosol: btw, pardon guys, I think Mike Maul was a maintainer for that code and his activity is frozen. The library was forked from a company in Japan. Mathematical Systems Inc. mathematical-systems
2018-05-04T17:07:48Z jeosol: They are the once I should contact I guess see any library issues.
2018-05-04T17:07:59Z jmercouris: I was wondering what "MSI" stood for
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2018-05-04T17:08:30Z jmercouris: I wish I knew someone who spoke Japanese to refer you to a translator
2018-05-04T17:09:17Z jeosol: however, Mike's branch is more recent so it is better to pick it up from him
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2018-05-04T17:09:24Z jeosol: hahaha
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2018-05-04T17:10:37Z jeosol: So I am back to Mike again. I will contact him, ask about the license issue and get back.
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2018-05-04T17:17:24Z jeosol: jmercouris: I sent an email to one of the Asian guys. Hopefully, I hear back, if not, I will just go ahead like you suggested. Hopefully, it doesn't bring any issues.
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2018-05-04T17:22:13Z jmercouris: jeosol: fingers crossed!
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2018-05-04T17:24:45Z Fade:           
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2018-05-04T17:30:09Z phoe: Fade: interesting
2018-05-04T17:30:56Z Fade: my DSL line driver puked, and seemed to send an errant newline. sorry.
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2018-05-04T17:32:10Z phoe: hah, no problem. (: Happened to me a few times as well.
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2018-05-04T17:32:41Z Fade: it's really quite amazing that anything ever works.
2018-05-04T17:33:13Z dlowe: an optimist I see
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2018-05-04T17:33:40Z jeosol: jmercouris: Hope so. I will wait, see if he replies, before starting to work on the examples.
2018-05-04T17:34:37Z Fade: :)
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2018-05-05T04:31:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-05T06:07:13Z phoe: Hey beach!
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2018-05-05T07:10:57Z beach: scymtym: For Second Climacs, I want the reader to return parse-results, or as I call them in Second Climacs "wad"s.  A wad is a nested data structure that contains source positions corresponding to the start and the end of the thing that was read, and also a list of children, which are also wads.  And the children are represented as a list of wads in the order that they were read.
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2018-05-05T07:12:05Z beach: Furthermore, non-expressions are included, so that there are comment wads, etc.
2018-05-05T07:12:35Z beach: I need to program Eclector to return wads.
2018-05-05T07:12:43Z beach: I have several options:
2018-05-05T07:13:00Z beach: 1. Just do it.
2018-05-05T07:13:29Z beach: 2. Add the possibility for Eclector to return wads, just the way it can now return CSTs.
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2018-05-05T07:14:13Z beach: The thing is complicated by the fact that in Second Climacs I ultimately want CSTs as well.
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2018-05-05T07:15:03Z beach: So then, for solution 1 I can convert wads to CSTs.  Just drop the non-expressions and apply a similar technique that Eclector itself uses to construct a CST from a bunch of children.
2018-05-05T07:15:27Z beach: With solution 2, there are two sub-options:
2018-05-05T07:15:58Z beach: 2.1 Use solution 1, but include it in the Eclector repository.
2018-05-05T07:16:34Z beach: 2.2 Use solution 2, and factor the code so that there is no duplication, i.e. build the CSTs from the wads.
2018-05-05T07:17:05Z beach: scymtym: Any suggestions?
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2018-05-05T07:19:07Z beach: The thing is complicated by the fact that, for Second Climacs, I want to make the parser incremental.  I guess I need to think about the interaction between the cache manager and the reader.  It is entirely possible that it can not be turned incremental with solution 2.
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2018-05-05T07:20:30Z phoe: beach: for an incomplete expression, is it possible that you return a "special" wad at the end of each list of children that is used as a mark that this expression is incomplete?
2018-05-05T07:21:10Z phoe: I imagine that for an incomplete expression "(1 2 3" it could be a list resembling (#<WAD 1> #<WAD 2> #<WAD 3> #<EOF-WAD>) or something similar.
2018-05-05T07:21:31Z beach: I do that.  It is called EOF-WAD.
2018-05-05T07:21:34Z phoe: If a list contains an EOF-WAD, then the expression is incomplete, but you can nonetheless return the parse result.
2018-05-05T07:21:38Z phoe: Hah!
2018-05-05T07:22:01Z beach: Yes, I do need to improve it so that there are several types of EOF-WADs
2018-05-05T07:22:03Z phoe: And if you can return a parse result, then you should be able to make your parser incremental nonetheless.
2018-05-05T07:22:24Z beach: One would be an incomplete list, one and incomplete token, etc.
2018-05-05T07:22:45Z beach: It's not clear...
2018-05-05T07:23:17Z beach: The wad-reader would need to be a generic function.
2018-05-05T07:23:35Z beach: That way, I can define and :AROUND method that consults the cache.
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2018-05-05T07:23:51Z beach: It would not call CALL-NEXT-METHOD if there is a wad in the cache.
2018-05-05T07:24:03Z beach: I guess it can work.
2018-05-05T07:24:08Z phoe: Oh, right.
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2018-05-05T07:25:39Z beach: The reason I am asking all this is that such a wad reader could be useful in situations other than Second Climacs, and if so, it ought to be in a separate system.
2018-05-05T07:31:04Z beach: Anyway, time to go do something else.
2018-05-05T07:31:33Z beach: I'll read any remarks when I get back.
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2018-05-05T07:37:14Z flip214: beach: for me "wad" is a datafile for Doom ;)
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2018-05-05T07:45:36Z beach: I see.  Well, PARSE-RESULT turned out to be too long, so I had to choose something shorter.
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2018-05-05T10:51:47Z jmercouris: anyone know where Shinmera has been? He's active on github but not on IRC
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2018-05-05T10:56:26Z scymtym: beach: i will have to think about this more, but i have an initial impression. i mentioned before that i would like to turn the eclector-concrete-syntax-tree code into two parts: 1) a protocol for constructing parse results 2) a client of that protocol that constructs CSTs. my impression is that such a protocol (modulo omissions that become apparent when it is used) would be sufficient for the three clients i am aware of: 1) the CST
2018-05-05T10:56:26Z scymtym: client 2) the second climacs client 3) my toy-lisp client
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2018-05-05T10:59:46Z pjb: jmercouris: you mean, Shinmera has been programming, instead of chatting?  Anathema!
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2018-05-05T11:18:27Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: he is on irc, ust gave up on #lisp (at least temporarily)
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2018-05-05T11:31:03Z edgar-rft always thought that chatting is like literate programming
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2018-05-05T12:25:10Z beach: scymtym: OK, sounds good.  Let's discuss this at some point.
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2018-05-05T15:10:38Z Ukari: is there any consensus or principle about function api design? There are two ways and which is better ? multiple returned values, or (list (cons :key1 xx) (cons :key2 xx) (cons: key3 xx))
2018-05-05T15:11:09Z White_Flame: multiple values are very common
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2018-05-05T15:11:24Z White_Flame: now, if those keys are optional, then you  might want to return that and descructure
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2018-05-05T15:19:02Z pfdietz: I suggest a preference for :key arguments.
2018-05-05T15:20:49Z phoe: Ukari: it depends™
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2018-05-05T15:21:10Z phoe: what is your function going to return?
2018-05-05T15:21:29Z phoe: I mean, what is its purpose?
2018-05-05T15:22:23Z Ukari: I am used to use closure as a simple object system
2018-05-05T15:22:37Z jackdaniel: if function returns multiple values use multiple values, that way you don't cons unnecessarily
2018-05-05T15:22:48Z Ukari: like this https://github.com/ukari/lmdb/blob/master/database.lisp
2018-05-05T15:22:50Z jackdaniel: (my opinion™)
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2018-05-05T15:23:46Z Bike: i wonder if implementations cons in (multiple-value-call (lambda (&key ...) ...) ...)
2018-05-05T15:23:47Z jackdaniel: you don't need the lambda there
2018-05-05T15:24:15Z jackdaniel: because you return the result of calling it (when you cal lthe function)
2018-05-05T15:24:19Z jackdaniel: just saying
2018-05-05T15:24:24Z Bike: what?
2018-05-05T15:24:24Z jackdaniel: also progn is implicit in defun
2018-05-05T15:24:31Z Bike: oh not me
2018-05-05T15:24:46Z jackdaniel: Ukari: ↑ (not Bike :)
2018-05-05T15:25:21Z Ukari: what is calling it? the lambda it returned is what need to call
2018-05-05T15:25:28Z Bike: it's called immediately
2018-05-05T15:25:30Z Bike: so it's pointless
2018-05-05T15:25:40Z jackdaniel: (defun hash () ((lambda () 3))) is the same as (defun hash () 3)
2018-05-05T15:25:41Z Xof: speaking of consing
2018-05-05T15:25:43Z Bike: (defun hash () (let ((storage)) ...)) would work the same
2018-05-05T15:25:56Z jackdaniel: compiler may even strip the lambda
2018-05-05T15:25:58Z Bike: also, if you want an object i recommend actually construting an object
2018-05-05T15:26:07Z Bike: no need to be coy
2018-05-05T15:26:16Z jackdaniel: yup
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2018-05-05T15:26:34Z jackdaniel: and an opinionated advice: use #'(lambda …) to return lambda
2018-05-05T15:26:43Z Ukari: you are right
2018-05-05T15:26:47Z jackdaniel: though it is semantically the same (because lambda is a macro)
2018-05-05T15:26:53Z Bike: this isn't even more efficient, you cons up three closures, whereas you only need zero closures
2018-05-05T15:27:05Z Ukari: I thought you were talking about lambdas in return
2018-05-05T15:27:55Z jackdaniel: well, in your situation (if you really need these lambdas inside), just do (defun hash () (let (storage) (values #'(…) #'(…) #'(…))))
2018-05-05T15:28:23Z Xof: I am having difficulty building an implementation of case using a jump table without consing at runtime (and, worse, doing O(n) initialization at runtime).  I wonder if I'm missing something or if that is indeed the best I can do
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2018-05-05T15:29:02Z Bike: what do you have to cons at runtime?
2018-05-05T15:29:05Z Ukari: in values #'(...)... way, if i want to call :set or :get, the code need to provide a exact position
2018-05-05T15:29:07Z Xof: Bike: closures
2018-05-05T15:29:14Z Bike: for what?
2018-05-05T15:29:30Z Xof: (let ((x 1)) (case y (:foo (1+ x)) (:bar (+ x 2))))
2018-05-05T15:29:59Z jackdaniel: Ukari: whenever you remember that first is init, second is set and third is get, or that you remember that there is assoc :init, assoc :set and assoc :get still makes you remember *things* as a programmer
2018-05-05T15:30:03Z Xof: if I rewrite that to (funcall (aref table (lookup y))) ; approximately
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2018-05-05T15:30:21Z Xof: then my table functions are in general closures
2018-05-05T15:30:25Z Bike: oh i thought you meant an actual jump table
2018-05-05T15:30:34Z Xof: (defun foo (x) (case y (:foo (1+ x)) (:bar (+ x 2))))
2018-05-05T15:31:03Z Xof: yeah, fair enough
2018-05-05T15:31:05Z Bike: which obviously you can't do without special support
2018-05-05T15:31:09Z Ukari: jackdaniel, but if i need to add another :setFoo, i must add it to the last position or it will mess up the code before
2018-05-05T15:31:14Z Xof: ok, that's the "obviously" I was looking for, thanks
2018-05-05T15:31:50Z jackdaniel: Ukari: for me thsi programming style is unreadable anyway, when I want functions I define them with names and provide argument to them
2018-05-05T15:31:58Z Bike: i mean, an "actual" jump table is like having a GO special operator that evaluates its argument
2018-05-05T15:32:03Z Bike: but that doesn't exist in lisp
2018-05-05T15:32:24Z Xof: the good news is that means I can forget about my case-using-perfect-hashes, at least for now, and move on to find-restart-using-perfect-hashes
2018-05-05T15:32:32Z Xof: since restart-bind does O(n) initialization anyway
2018-05-05T15:32:47Z Bike: well you could still get implementation support and do it
2018-05-05T15:32:59Z Bike: i think phkuong played with computed goto in sbcl
2018-05-05T15:33:00Z jackdaniel: Ukari: eventually (if I really must) I can always define dynamic variable and create dynamic context for these functiosn with let, that way I have only one thing to carry in the application instead of n functions
2018-05-05T15:33:22Z Xof: it certainly sounds like the kind of thing he would have played with
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2018-05-05T15:33:48Z jackdaniel: Ukari: I admit that these advices are very opinionated, but you have asked about opinions ;)
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2018-05-05T15:34:54Z Ukari: show me the example about `define dynamic variable and create dynamic context for these functiosn with let`, it sounds interesting
2018-05-05T15:35:54Z phoe: (let ((*some-sorta-thing* 42)) (foo))
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2018-05-05T15:36:07Z phoe: where (defun foo () (frobnicate *some-sorta-thing*))
2018-05-05T15:37:09Z jackdaniel: (defvar *foo*) (defun init () (setf *foo* (make-hash-table))) (defun ukari-get () (gethash …)) (ukari-set () (setf (gethash …)))
2018-05-05T15:37:30Z jackdaniel: now (let ((*foo* nil)) (init) (ukari-set …) (ukari-get …))
2018-05-05T15:37:53Z jackdaniel: in body of this let form *foo* is bound to nil, outside this let form *foo* is not bound at all
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2018-05-05T15:42:25Z Ukari: it seems not work well if I need two or more instance
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2018-05-05T15:43:33Z jackdaniel: we could go on with improving your hack, but readable solution is to have argument to your set/get functions
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2018-05-05T15:43:54Z jackdaniel: and as many variables as many instances you need (and work from there)
2018-05-05T15:44:05Z pjb: Ukari: I would distinguish inner-loop functions from public API functions. The later, notably if they're intended to be invoked from the REPL, as commands, can have all kinds of sophisticated argument parsing, including &key and others (eg. catching additionnal arguments or list of arguments after the last &key, which is not parsed by default).  But for internal functions, it may be better to use more plain lambda-lists, with only
2018-05-05T15:44:05Z pjb: mandatory arguments.  Avoiding notably &rest.
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2018-05-05T15:44:25Z jackdaniel: having dynamic context, or even worse – floating anonymous functions, makes your program hard to analyze
2018-05-05T15:44:40Z pjb: Ukari: and for results, multiple-values are probably the fastest way to return multiple values, even if you put a lot of NILs there for optional results.
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2018-05-05T15:49:05Z Ukari: pjb, thank you for advice
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2018-05-05T16:47:56Z Ukari: (iterate (for i in '(1 2 3 4)) (print i)), why this code tells 'The variable I is unbound'
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2018-05-05T16:53:03Z phoe: Ukari: (ql:quickload :iterate) (use-package :iterate)
2018-05-05T16:53:12Z phoe: ITERATE is not a part of standard Common Lisp.
2018-05-05T16:54:02Z Ukari: oh, : p
2018-05-05T16:55:09Z Josh_2: Don't iterate, loop.
2018-05-05T16:55:18Z phoe: Don't loop, do.
2018-05-05T16:55:24Z Josh_2: Yeh :D
2018-05-05T16:55:41Z phoe: Don't do, TAGBODY+GO. Don't TAGBODY+GO, recur. Don't recur, iterate.
2018-05-05T16:56:05Z Josh_2: Don't do, do*
2018-05-05T16:58:04Z phoe: (defmacro don (thing &rest forms) (declare (ignore thing)) `(do ,@forms))
2018-05-05T16:58:11Z phoe: (don't ((x 0 (1+ x))) ((> x 10)) (print x))
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2018-05-05T17:08:58Z foojin: jackdaniel: In your answer to Ukari, what did you mean by "floating anonymous functions"?
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2018-05-05T17:09:23Z phoe: a (lambda (...) ...) somewhere in code
2018-05-05T17:09:58Z phoe: nothing worse in a stacktrace than a nameless lambda
2018-05-05T17:10:29Z jackdaniel: foojin: he had "function factory", so I assume he were going to use them
2018-05-05T17:11:01Z jackdaniel: exactly 3x number of instances of his "hash"
2018-05-05T17:11:02Z Ukari: phoe, why, for efficiency or debug info?
2018-05-05T17:11:10Z phoe: Ukari: debuggability
2018-05-05T17:11:14Z jackdaniel: each of them was not named, and I assume he would want to store them *somewhere*
2018-05-05T17:11:22Z phoe: efficiency-wise there should be no difference
2018-05-05T17:11:29Z jackdaniel: so there is a lot of variables storing functions without a name
2018-05-05T17:11:45Z jackdaniel: generally I meant this
2018-05-05T17:12:43Z Ukari: nameless lambda don't make global name confit but defun does, or it needs package name provided
2018-05-05T17:12:45Z foojin: jackdaniel: Ah, so it's just about passing them around so that it becomes difficult to know where did they come from.
2018-05-05T17:13:45Z phoe: Ukari: do you really need to generate code for each single hash element that you have?
2018-05-05T17:13:56Z jackdaniel: Ukari: I suspect you are a beginning CL programmer. I may be wrong, but if it is a case, you may learn a lot by following simple advices
2018-05-05T17:14:13Z phoe: and each single hash value is going to have a completely separate function that is going to be called?
2018-05-05T17:15:08Z jackdaniel: it is easier to maintain N variables with your "instances" and use directly gethash/setf gethash, then to maintain 3xN functions doing that for you
2018-05-05T17:15:30Z jackdaniel: if you have more complicated behavior, you maintain objects in variables and you specilize generic functions on their classes
2018-05-05T17:15:45Z Ukari: maybe i could store nameless lambda in a static way and pass varibale into it, like (let ((set (lambda (store) (lambda () ...)))) (defun hash () (list (cons :set (funcall set store)))))
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2018-05-05T17:15:48Z jackdaniel: etc, that is something what people do, because it works and it provides easy structure of your program to follow
2018-05-05T17:16:24Z jackdaniel: but I think you are not interested in following this "nonsense", so I'm getting back to my Saturday ;-) see you \o
2018-05-05T17:17:43Z phoe: Ukari: grab a CLOS tutorial, read it and use it. You're going in a direction that is rarely used (because better mechanisms exist) and insanely hard to debug.
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2018-05-05T17:19:48Z phoe: Your "closures as a simple object system" slowly stops being simple.
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2018-05-05T17:27:57Z Ukari: i find a not-independent generator in this code, (iterate (for el in '(1 2 3 4)) (generate i from 1) (print (next i))). is there any standrad about independent generator?
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2018-05-05T17:30:12Z Ukari: sth might works like (iterate (for i in generator) (print i))
2018-05-05T17:30:21Z phoe: Ukari: I think the only piece of manual for ITERATE is https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/index.html
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2018-05-05T17:41:15Z Fare: Ukari: if you're heavy into functional style and going below the object system, Scheme might be more for you than CL.
2018-05-05T17:42:54Z phoe: ^
2018-05-05T17:45:56Z python476: hey there
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2018-05-05T17:46:04Z python476: any of you ever seen a PCB lisp DSL ?
2018-05-05T17:46:13Z python476: even primitive
2018-05-05T17:46:26Z python476: PCB as in electronics layout
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2018-05-05T17:52:17Z fourier: not exacly lisp question but rather slime/sly, but how to get the last value returned in repl? like (sly-inspect "*") always inspects nil
2018-05-05T17:56:00Z p_l: python476: I have only seen complete GUI design programs
2018-05-05T17:58:55Z Fare: fourier: you need * in the thread of the REPL ?
2018-05-05T18:00:17Z fourier: Fare: yes apparently
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2018-05-05T18:01:38Z fourier: what I want is to call sly's graphical inspector on *. but it always inspects nil :(
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2018-05-05T18:02:46Z rme: (defparameter *foo* *), then inspect *foo*
2018-05-05T18:03:54Z fourier: yes this works, but kinda ugly
2018-05-05T18:04:15Z rme: (swank:inspect-in-emacs *)
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2018-05-05T18:05:01Z rme: there's always a way
2018-05-05T18:05:06Z python476: p_l: danke
2018-05-05T18:05:22Z python476: I think it's time for a lisp pcb compiler
2018-05-05T18:05:28Z python476: after all SICP has a circuit DSL
2018-05-05T18:06:00Z python476: we just need a SICP-circuit-to-plane dsl, wish dsssl support for fanciness
2018-05-05T18:06:01Z python476: :cough:
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2018-05-05T18:06:44Z Fare: rme: what's the funding situation of CCL?
2018-05-05T18:06:48Z p_l: python476: pretty sure Cadence SKILL can be used like DSL
2018-05-05T18:10:00Z rme: Fare: The funding situation is not good. I have done a little paying work for about 1.5 clients.
2018-05-05T18:11:10Z rme: I can self-fund some work on it, but not forever.
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2018-05-05T18:14:36Z Fare: :-/
2018-05-05T18:15:34Z phoe: rme: do you have any kind of patreonfundme website set up?
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2018-05-05T18:15:49Z Josh_2: ^^
2018-05-05T18:16:39Z Ukari: http://rextester.com/LNBE19355
2018-05-05T18:17:09Z Ukari: how to parse a syntax keyword in defmacro?
2018-05-05T18:17:28Z edgar-rft: python476, is this what you're looking for? <https://www.cliki.net/ICanCAD>
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2018-05-05T18:19:02Z Ukari: oh, i know
2018-05-05T18:19:08Z rme: phoe: No, I haven't set up anything like that.
2018-05-05T18:19:50Z phoe: rme: please do! I believe I'm not the only person who'd want to chip in.
2018-05-05T18:21:22Z rme: Thank you, phoe.  I know there are generous people out there like you, but I have some doubts about whether crowdfunding is suitable for sustaining funding for a software system like CCL.
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2018-05-05T18:24:11Z Fare: I have fond memories of working with CCL. A few issues, too, but overall minor. Not sure how things changed since Gary retired (how is he?)
2018-05-05T18:24:56Z phoe: rme: I honestly don't think it's going to sustain CCL but I nonetheless want to throw my two cents at it the moment I have a chance.
2018-05-05T18:25:07Z phoe: Other than hacking at it, that is.
2018-05-05T18:25:24Z rme: Fare: Gary sent me email the day before the ELS started to wish me luck on me talk.
2018-05-05T18:25:59Z fourier: that was extremely energetic and inspiring talk though
2018-05-05T18:26:04Z rme: He's mentioned to me before that he thinks about getting back on the net, but I don't know much more than that.
2018-05-05T18:26:18Z phoe: fourier: +1
2018-05-05T18:26:19Z rme: fourier: Thanks.  I believe every word I said.
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2018-05-05T18:27:10Z Fare: (I still believe ITA did the wrong call on dividing its attention between SBCL and CCL, but that is one of the least mistakes made there)
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2018-05-05T18:28:08Z Fare: I miss working in Lisp --- and most importantly, with Lispers.
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2018-05-05T18:30:49Z Fare: Happily, I am working with a Lisper now, though not in Lisp.
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2018-05-05T18:31:59Z mfiano: Fare: What are you working in if not Gerbil?
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2018-05-05T18:42:04Z Fare: mfiano: at Legicash, we use OCaml.
2018-05-05T18:42:31Z Fare: other project (still ongoing, but I am less involved) is still in Gerbil Scheme.
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2018-05-05T18:52:26Z fourier: what is your opinion on ocaml ?
2018-05-05T18:52:51Z Fare: Well, I was raised on OCaml back at $almamater
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2018-05-05T18:54:24Z Fare: coming back to it, I find I enjoy having decent type inference to help me. The syntax is annoying. The build system story is in disarray though with a good solution in sight (jbuilder / dune); the metaprogramming story is well, quite unsatisfying though not quite as bad as Java.
2018-05-05T18:55:06Z jmercouris: Fare: I think you managed to find one of the only OCaml jobs in existence
2018-05-05T18:55:26Z Fare: I made it.
2018-05-05T18:55:49Z Fare: I'm the technical co-founder.
2018-05-05T18:55:52Z jmercouris: Ah, then you could have just as easily made it Lisp
2018-05-05T18:55:55Z jmercouris: what drove your decision?
2018-05-05T18:56:00Z Fare: No, we really needed types.
2018-05-05T18:56:13Z jmercouris: Do you care to elaborate?
2018-05-05T18:56:17Z Fare: working with cryptocurrencies, with our claim being that we use formal methods.
2018-05-05T18:56:22Z jmercouris: Ah, well
2018-05-05T18:56:30Z Fare: There is a Scheme backend to Coq, though.
2018-05-05T18:56:45Z Fare: So that's the fallback plan to me if OCaml gets too messy / stunted.
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2018-05-05T18:57:34Z Fare: Types do help a lot with prototyping. And library support for pure functional programming.
2018-05-05T18:57:45Z jmercouris: Do they? I'm not so sure
2018-05-05T18:57:51Z rme: I've always sort of been interested in ML and OCaml, but I've never used either for anything real.
2018-05-05T18:58:02Z jmercouris: you are a much more experienced developer than me though, so maybe with time I'll achieve some level of enlightenment in this regard
2018-05-05T18:59:05Z fourier: why ocaml and not haskell ?
2018-05-05T18:59:23Z Fare: I do find that OCaml is a bit awkward in that anything serious requires using modules which require one more level of complexity compared to other things. I miss the seamless ad hoc polymorphism of Scala or Haskell.
2018-05-05T18:59:36Z Fare: The object system of OCaml is not very well integrated.
2018-05-05T19:00:14Z Fare: fourier, because we wanted to work with Tezos (shelved for now) which uses OCaml, and we still want to use with Coq, which has much better OCaml than Haskell support.
2018-05-05T19:00:22Z fourier: ah I see
2018-05-05T19:00:38Z jmercouris: Fare: so, what does yoru company do exactly?
2018-05-05T19:00:42Z jmercouris: are you at liberty to say?
2018-05-05T19:00:50Z jmercouris: s/yoru/your
2018-05-05T19:01:41Z Fare: Also, unless I had an expert Haskell partner, I wouldn't feel comfortable using Haskell. OCaml lets you easily escape to plain old imperative style, so I know I can fallback to the bad old ways if needed.
2018-05-05T19:01:49Z Fare: https://legi.cash/
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2018-05-05T19:02:25Z jmercouris: imperative is the bad old ways? what are you some prolog master :D?
2018-05-05T19:04:27Z Fare: prolog is way too imperative for me. Did you mean Mercury?
2018-05-05T19:04:41Z Fare: (Does Mercury still exist?)
2018-05-05T19:06:06Z jmercouris: prolog is way too imperative, that's a statement I never thought I would hear :D
2018-05-05T19:06:36Z jmercouris: interesting business you have there
2018-05-05T19:06:47Z jmercouris: I take it you are funded because you have some advisors
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2018-05-05T19:07:54Z Fare: jmercouris, the two are not synonymous.
2018-05-05T19:08:02Z Fare: Although they are correlated.
2018-05-05T19:09:24Z p_l: Fare: Mercury still exists
2018-05-05T19:09:35Z Fare: yup, mercurylang.org
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2018-05-05T19:10:31Z jmercouris: sure, anyone that's serious about a business is usually using an advisor as an avenue to investment
2018-05-05T19:10:42Z jmercouris: at least serious about a "startup", whatever that means
2018-05-05T19:11:32Z jmercouris: Fare: how long do you anticipate until your product is operational?
2018-05-05T19:11:57Z Fare: about a year.
2018-05-05T19:12:04Z Fare: if fully funded
2018-05-05T19:12:11Z Fare: that would be beta net.
2018-05-05T19:12:17Z jmercouris: So what's the majority of that time?
2018-05-05T19:12:30Z jmercouris: what do you need the funding for?
2018-05-05T19:12:43Z Fare: building the software and proof infrastructure.
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2018-05-05T19:13:21Z jmercouris: how many developers do you want to hire?
2018-05-05T19:13:40Z jmercouris: if you don't want to talk about it, feel free to stop me at any time
2018-05-05T19:13:55Z jmercouris: or if anyone is annoyed by this being off-topic as well...
2018-05-05T19:13:55Z jackdaniel: --> #lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:14:09Z jmercouris: I first looked for Fare's username in lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:14:30Z jackdaniel: ask him to join, maybe he is interested in non-lisp discussion ;-)
2018-05-05T19:16:52Z Fare joins #lispcafe
2018-05-05T19:17:09Z loginoob: I am a beginner, have only read 6 chapters of CL:a gentle introduction. Should i also learn to write tests to my programs or that should be learned later?
2018-05-05T19:17:20Z Fare: ocaml is just lisp with a bad syntax and a semi-usable type system.
2018-05-05T19:17:35Z jmercouris: loginoob: Tests aren't super critical, plus there is no "de-facto" testing framework in CL
2018-05-05T19:17:38Z Fare: actually, the original CAML was written in Lisp. LeLisp.
2018-05-05T19:18:16Z jmercouris: loginoob: something cool to do might be to write your own testing suite
2018-05-05T19:18:21Z jackdaniel: loginoob: desiging tests for your application is essential, but not so important for learning excercises
2018-05-05T19:18:23Z jmercouris: loginoob: there's a chapter about it in practical common lisp
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2018-05-05T19:18:53Z jmercouris: loginoob: You can find it here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html
2018-05-05T19:19:04Z jmercouris: it could be a cool way to learn, and write some very basic tests
2018-05-05T19:19:09Z jackdaniel: loginoob: tool you use to write tests is a secondary choice, we have multitude of testing frameworks but a little number of tests written
2018-05-05T19:19:11Z Fare: even cooler than designing your own test suite, is not doing it and helping cleanup the test library situation.
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2018-05-05T19:19:35Z jmercouris: well, a standard will not emerge unless a leader emerges
2018-05-05T19:19:54Z phoe: loginoob: I suggest that you try reading the code for 1AM and trying to use it for your first tests.
2018-05-05T19:19:56Z jackdaniel: creating new test framework won't help picking the leader ,) I fully agree with Fare
2018-05-05T19:20:12Z phoe: it's a test framework that fits on a single page of paper and is therefore dead simple to understand.
2018-05-05T19:20:24Z phoe: though, honestly, you don't need no test framework to write tests in Lisp
2018-05-05T19:20:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: it's not about picking the leader, it's about learning CL...
2018-05-05T19:20:54Z phoe: (defun test-simple-math () (assert (= 4 (+ 2 2))) (assert (= 9 (* 3 3))) ...)
2018-05-05T19:20:59Z jackdaniel: then why did you mention that? :)
2018-05-05T19:21:09Z jmercouris: I thought it would combine both of the user's goals
2018-05-05T19:21:16Z jmercouris: 1. learning how to write tests, 2. learning common lisp
2018-05-05T19:21:39Z phoe: because 1AM is a fun wrapper around DEFUN that also takes case of collecting all tests for the purpose of running them together.
2018-05-05T19:21:52Z jackdaniel: I fail to comprehend this logic, but whatever ;] /me departs
2018-05-05T19:22:01Z phoe: so I can call (RUN) and boom, they all get run.
2018-05-05T19:22:08Z jmercouris: just like that :)
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2018-05-05T19:22:10Z phoe: just a matter of convenience and my silly customs.
2018-05-05T19:24:08Z loginoob: I guess i should focus on learning CL and worry about tests after i become intermediate
2018-05-05T19:24:35Z loginoob: otherwise i would be lost
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2018-05-05T19:24:54Z MichaelRaskin: A long file with assert's and comments can go a long way
2018-05-05T19:24:58Z jmercouris: loginoob: that's a good idea
2018-05-05T19:25:31Z loginoob: will try to do some simple asserts
2018-05-05T19:25:35Z loginoob: thank you
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2018-05-05T19:26:35Z phoe: loginoob: simple asserts should do for now
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2018-05-05T19:27:22Z loginoob: will do surely
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2018-05-05T19:44:50Z fourier: first learn the language, tests you will need then you are about to write some library/app in it
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2018-05-05T20:18:50Z foojin: How can variable capture occur in the following example macro from "On Lisp": (defmacro cap2 (var) ‘(let ((x ...) (,var ...)) ...)) ?
2018-05-05T20:18:54Z foojin: Is it incorrect just because passing x to it would be a LET error?
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2018-05-05T20:19:18Z Bike: what's in the dots
2018-05-05T20:20:38Z foojin: It's not specified. I suppose that whatever's in there, it contains instances of ",var".
2018-05-05T20:21:34Z phoe: foojin: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x)) is an error
2018-05-05T20:21:43Z phoe: because you have multiple LET bindings for the same variable
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2018-05-05T20:25:20Z foojin: phoe: Wouldn't your example expand to nested LETs? BTW that's what I meant when I wrote about a "LET error".
2018-05-05T20:26:12Z foojin: phoe: Ah, I see. Even if they're nested, the inner one is incorrect.
2018-05-05T20:26:29Z phoe: foojin: exactly.
2018-05-05T20:26:40Z phoe: Nested LETs, second of which is malformed.
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2018-05-05T20:29:29Z phoe goes to get his nightly garbage collection
2018-05-05T20:30:03Z foojin: So, if one were to suppose that only correct (non-malformed) expansions will occur, there's no way for x to be captured, is it?
2018-05-05T20:30:08Z clintm: phoe: (sb-ext:gc :full t)?
2018-05-05T20:30:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: More like indexing.
2018-05-05T20:30:52Z p_l: shrdlu68: well, it's GC, compression, reindexing
2018-05-05T20:31:12Z edgar-rft: clintm, is this the same as (sb-ext:gv :empty nil) ?
2018-05-05T20:31:33Z edgar-rft: *(sb-ext:gc :empty nil)
2018-05-05T20:32:03Z edgar-rft: damn, jokes with typos suck :-(
2018-05-05T20:32:13Z clintm: edgar-rft: I'm not sure, but I know where to find out.
2018-05-05T20:32:13Z clintm: hehe
2018-05-05T20:32:24Z shrdlu68: p_l: I've been thinking about the language-agnostic-syscalls thing, reading up on kernel hacking, procf, etc.
2018-05-05T20:32:35Z shrdlu68: Hit a snag when I considered threading.
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2018-05-05T20:35:33Z phoe: foojin: also depends
2018-05-05T20:35:39Z phoe: you might hit a reverse capture
2018-05-05T20:36:11Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 y (+ x 100))) may return something else than 142
2018-05-05T20:36:39Z phoe: because this might expand to (let ((x 42)) (let ((x 8080) (y 3)) (+ x 100)))
2018-05-05T20:36:46Z phoe: and therefore ;=> 8180
2018-05-05T20:36:55Z shrdlu68: How do I know which packages are being :used in current package?
2018-05-05T20:37:10Z phoe: shrdlu68: programmatically or interactively?
2018-05-05T20:37:16Z shrdlu68: Either.
2018-05-05T20:37:27Z phoe: shrdlu68: inspect the package object, it should have a use list
2018-05-05T20:37:38Z phoe: oh wait
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2018-05-05T20:37:40Z phoe: clhs package-use-list
2018-05-05T20:37:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pkg_us.htm
2018-05-05T20:38:30Z shrdlu68: Ah, so :cl-user :uses :sb-ext, which is why I've always been able to call gc without the sb-ext: prefix.
2018-05-05T20:38:49Z phoe: shrdlu68: yes, the use list for CL-USER is implementation-defined.
2018-05-05T20:39:05Z phoe: on CCL, it also uses the :CCL package methinks, and so on.
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2018-05-05T20:44:23Z pjb: foojin: more precisely, it's because in (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x))  we want the x in (cap2 x) to refer to the x bound by let. but the macro cap2 could expand to (let ((x 33 #|for example|#)) '(list x)) #| --> (list 33) |#  where is bound in the inner let.  This is not inherently wrong.  It's just a matter of specifications of the cap2 macro, and of general expectations ("style") in CL.
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2018-05-05T20:45:03Z foojin: phoe: The question was somewhat ambiguous, with dots instead of actual code, so I assumed there were no comma substitutions there. Otherwise that situation would surely be possible.
2018-05-05T20:45:44Z pjb: foojin: If you are defining a specific DSL, perhaps it's meaningful for the x in (cap2 x) to be refering something else than outside bindings.  But if not in this case, it's generally expected that the in a form such as (let ((x 42)) (cap2 x)) the x in (cap2 x) be a lexical reference to the lexical binding.
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2018-05-05T20:47:13Z pjb: It's often better to let the user specify the name of the inner variables, when he can also provide bodies or expressions refering them: (let ((x 42)) (cap2 (x) x)) would then read similarly to (let ((x 42)) (let ((x 33)) x)) and there would be no contraried expectation: it would be clear, lexically, that cap2 establishes a new binding for x.
2018-05-05T20:47:42Z pjb: And if the user wants to use the outer x, this allows him to write (let ((x 42)) (cap2 (y) (+ x y))).
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2018-05-05T20:48:25Z puchacz: hi, how to read file to array of octets pls?
2018-05-05T20:49:14Z phoe: puchacz: alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector
2018-05-05T20:49:23Z pjb: shrdlu68: I have this in my common.lisp rc file: (mapc (lambda (package) (unuse-package package "COMMON-LISP-USER")) (delete (find-package "COMMON-LISP") (copy-seq (package-use-list "COMMON-LISP-USER"))))
2018-05-05T20:49:25Z puchacz: phoe:  thanks
2018-05-05T20:49:41Z pjb: shrdlu68: so my CL-USER is the same in all implementations, and I can write conforming code even in CL-USER.
2018-05-05T20:49:49Z shrdlu68: puchacz: Alexandria has a function for that.
2018-05-05T20:50:18Z foojin: pjb: I totally forgot about the "expectations" thing. It would indeed be quite strange for an inserted binding to get in the way (as shown in your first example).
2018-05-05T20:50:33Z pjb: puchacz: (subseq (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents "/etc/passwd") 0 10)  #| --> #(35 35 10 35 32 85 115 101 114 32) |#
2018-05-05T20:51:03Z shrdlu68: puchacz: alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector
2018-05-05T20:51:35Z phoe: shrdlu68: ha! I was first
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2018-05-05T20:51:42Z puchacz: :)
2018-05-05T20:51:56Z shrdlu68: puchacz: Or just open the file with :elment-type (unsigned-byte 8)
2018-05-05T20:51:57Z pjb: foojin: this is why it's not wrong per-se. It all depends on the specification of the macro. For example, anaphoric macros establish an implicit binding to IT.
2018-05-05T20:52:07Z shrdlu68: phoe: Didn't see that :(
2018-05-05T20:52:11Z phoe: shrdlu68: <3
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2018-05-05T20:52:23Z puchacz: shrdlu68: nah, I prefer to have it wrapped as a function
2018-05-05T20:52:25Z pjb: the type is evaluated, so it must be quoted: :elment-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2018-05-05T20:52:38Z shrdlu68: Yep.
2018-05-05T20:52:48Z pjb: And since unsigned-byte is exported from CL, you cannot fbind it.
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2018-05-05T20:53:01Z phoe: wait, fbind?
2018-05-05T20:53:07Z phoe: you can put it in a flet
2018-05-05T20:53:12Z pjb: define a function or macro with the same name.
2018-05-05T20:53:21Z pjb: Nope, definitely not in flet or labels!
2018-05-05T20:53:33Z pjb: Because CL operators can be open-coded.
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2018-05-05T20:53:44Z phoe: (flet ((unsigned-byte (x) `(unsigned-byte ,x))) (unsigned-byte 8))
2018-05-05T20:53:48Z pjb: flet-ing or labels-ing them would be ineffective.
2018-05-05T20:53:51Z pjb: This is not conforming.
2018-05-05T20:54:06Z phoe: yes it is
2018-05-05T20:54:06Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_ababa.htm
2018-05-05T20:54:15Z phoe: If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not defined as a standardized function, macro, or special operator, it is allowed to lexically bind it as a function (e.g., with flet), to declare the ftype of that binding, and (in implementations which provide the ability to do so) to trace that binding.
2018-05-05T20:54:21Z shrdlu68: pjb: That's cool.
2018-05-05T20:54:37Z phoe: The fact that the above is completely pointless is a different thing
2018-05-05T20:55:12Z pjb: phoe: Oh, right, in the exceptions.
2018-05-05T20:55:19Z pjb: That's funny.
2018-05-05T20:55:23Z phoe: pjb: I know, right?
2018-05-05T20:55:32Z phoe: But this is why we can (let ((function ...)) ...), too.
2018-05-05T20:57:30Z pjb: This is a strong exception for the implementations, because the default rule is that implementations can define functions for those symbols.  But then they cannot use directly those functions in macroexpansions, because that could be wrapped in a flet/labels that would shadow them…
2018-05-05T20:58:22Z phoe: pjb: sure thing that they can define functions on them, BUT
2018-05-05T20:58:31Z phoe: these functions cannot be in form (defun unsigned-byte ...)
2018-05-05T20:58:41Z pjb: why not?
2018-05-05T20:58:53Z phoe: because with the symbol UNSIGNED-BYTE being exported, that would mean that the symbol UNSIGNED-BYTE is now globally fbound.
2018-05-05T20:59:15Z phoe: And it must NOT be globally fbound because there is no standard function CL:UNSIGNED-BYTE in the standard.
2018-05-05T20:59:21Z phoe: clhs unsigned-byte
2018-05-05T20:59:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm
2018-05-05T21:00:17Z pjb: but 11.1.2.1.2  pt. 2 is generally explained saying that implementations may do just that.
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2018-05-05T21:00:34Z varjag: anyone here uses hyperspec-lookup with safari?
2018-05-05T21:00:53Z pjb: Notice that in the exception it's not said "if the exported symbol is fbound or not" but "if the expected symbol is DEFINED by the standard as a function."
2018-05-05T21:01:05Z varjag: browse-url doesn't seem to open file:// urls for me
2018-05-05T21:01:07Z phoe: Hmmm.
2018-05-05T21:01:08Z varjag: http works fine
2018-05-05T21:01:13Z pjb: varjag: I use Safari as navigator when working on MacOS.
2018-05-05T21:01:37Z pjb: file:// works too, such as file:///opt/local/share/doc/lisp/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm
2018-05-05T21:01:51Z varjag: yeah they do work in broswer
2018-05-05T21:01:52Z phoe: pjb: I see.
2018-05-05T21:02:10Z varjag: but emacs' browse-url drops them shomehow
2018-05-05T21:02:13Z pjb: (after: sudo port install lisp-hyperspec)
2018-05-05T21:02:14Z phoe: It's nonetheless weird for me that the standard would permit a thing like #'UNSIGNED-BYTE.
2018-05-05T21:02:19Z phoe: Since that's obviously non-portable code.
2018-05-05T21:02:46Z pjb: phoe:  not really. This allows implementations to use functions to represent things such as types.
2018-05-05T21:03:12Z pjb: Perhaps we should be happy that no implementation use such trick.
2018-05-05T21:03:20Z phoe: pjb: sure, but that's non-portable.
2018-05-05T21:03:36Z varjag: so M-x hyperspec-lookup works for me if i set the root to a web adress, but not with the local hyperspec repo
2018-05-05T21:03:36Z pjb: It's hidden, it's an implementation detaila.
2018-05-05T21:03:49Z phoe: Well. As long as it's inside the implementation, I don't care.
2018-05-05T21:04:11Z phoe: But if it leaks outwards, it's just weird to me.
2018-05-05T21:04:12Z pjb: varjag: works for me. You'll have to debug it.
2018-05-05T21:04:22Z pjb: phoe: Yes.
2018-05-05T21:04:31Z phoe: The standard lists all symbols that are exported from the CL package.
2018-05-05T21:05:02Z phoe: I wonder if it has any constrains about whether some of these symbols must/must not be bound/fbound/macrobound.
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2018-05-05T21:05:25Z phoe: I mean, if the list of all fbound external CL symbols is not permitted to be extended by the implementation above the bare minimum.
2018-05-05T21:07:14Z phoe: That's an interesting thing to check... tomorrow.
2018-05-05T21:07:22Z phoe exhausts his heap, game over.
2018-05-05T21:08:54Z pjb: Good night. (you may have some surprise checking that).
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2018-05-05T21:54:07Z ebrasca: Can I get negative number in 2's complement and in binary?
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2018-05-05T21:56:41Z Ukari: is (defstruct ship ..) must use a 'make-ship' to make a instance? Is there anything like (make-instance 'ship ) also works ?
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2018-05-05T21:58:45Z Josh_2: Hmm I wonder when Fare is gonna come back, there is some questionable English on his site
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2018-05-05T22:03:22Z nirved: ebrasca: use ldb
2018-05-05T22:03:36Z White_Flame: or logand
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2018-05-05T22:05:31Z White_Flame: Ukari: there's an option to defstruct as to what to name the constructor
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2018-05-05T22:05:54Z White_Flame: so you can dispatch through your own tools if you want
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2018-05-05T22:09:42Z pjb: ebrasca: it's not clear what you're asking.
2018-05-05T22:10:14Z pjb: ebrasca: the answer is definitely: YES.  But we don't know what you want.
2018-05-05T22:10:22Z ebrasca: I like to have binary of negative number.
2018-05-05T22:10:33Z ebrasca: For b instruction of power9.
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2018-05-05T22:10:48Z ebrasca: I am porting mezzano to talos II.
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2018-05-05T22:11:00Z pjb: What about: (ldb (byte 32 0) -1) #| --> 4294967295 |#
2018-05-05T22:11:04Z White_Flame: (logand -1 #xffff) => 65535.  not sure what else you want
2018-05-05T22:11:30Z White_Flame: (also not sure which compiles faster, check the disassembly ;) )
2018-05-05T22:11:32Z ebrasca: It is 24 bits relative address
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2018-05-05T22:12:04Z pjb: Notice that since you're asking for number: (ldb (byte 32 0) (round (realpart #c(-3.0 0.0)))) #| --> 4294967293 |#
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2018-05-05T22:33:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
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2018-05-06T02:00:41Z sunshavi: Hi. How should i install commonQt on archlinux?
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2018-05-06T03:40:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-06T04:26:03Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: try installing qt4 and then install commonqt using quicklisp
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2018-05-06T04:26:45Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: Hi. thanks for your answer
2018-05-06T04:26:52Z sunshavi: it have been more than that
2018-05-06T04:27:16Z sunshavi: smoke-gen and smokeqt are required also
2018-05-06T04:27:39Z jackdaniel: ah, so you have succeeded?
2018-05-06T04:27:45Z jackdaniel: grats
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2018-05-06T04:28:35Z sunshavi: when the error happens when doing (ql:quickload :qt), in place on qmake You should do qmake-qt4
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2018-05-06T04:29:08Z sunshavi: also qimageblitz-svn
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2018-05-06T04:29:40Z sunshavi: yes jackdaniel i am doing now my hello world with CommonQt :)
2018-05-06T04:30:07Z jackdaniel: o, thanks for sharing
2018-05-06T04:30:18Z jackdaniel: this is somewhat similar with default python etc
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2018-05-06T04:30:28Z jackdaniel: can't you configure it with (say): https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Qt#Default_Qt_toolkit
2018-05-06T04:30:28Z sunshavi: nice catch about qt4, no info on the CommonQt wiki about it
2018-05-06T04:30:35Z beach: sunshavi: I strongly recommend you use McCLIM instead. :)
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2018-05-06T04:31:51Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: i did not realized about Default_Qt_toolkit
2018-05-06T04:32:33Z sunshavi: beach: McCLIM is available on arch?. Let me check. Which are the differences with sbcl?
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2018-05-06T04:32:53Z jackdaniel: if you are in exploratory mood you may try also McCLIM (which doesn't rely on FFI). It is far less polished than Qt, but is something fun to learn
2018-05-06T04:33:01Z jackdaniel: you can download McClIM directly from Qt
2018-05-06T04:33:10Z jackdaniel: s/from Qt/from Quicklisp/
2018-05-06T04:33:28Z jackdaniel: the bright side is that McCLIM is surely capable of having hello world
2018-05-06T04:33:31Z beach: sunshavi: I don't see how availability of McCLIM would depend on the OS.
2018-05-06T04:34:22Z sunshavi: well. This is my first day on common-lisp. I am here trying to do a replacement for dbdesigner wich is not available for armv7 arch
2018-05-06T04:34:49Z jackdaniel: here are my two screencasts of McCLIM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfBmRsPRdGg ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOrllTA-yc
2018-05-06T04:34:57Z jackdaniel: and generally: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo0SIc8er5gBWZsq64n0dxeIa63jU6XTX
2018-05-06T04:35:05Z jackdaniel: that said I've got to go (breakfast :-) later
2018-05-06T04:35:27Z sunshavi: beach: bear with me i'm a newbie on CL
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2018-05-06T04:35:49Z beach: sunshavi: OK, understood.
2018-05-06T04:36:35Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: enjoy the breakfast. here GMT-005
2018-05-06T04:36:41Z sunshavi: almost midnight
2018-05-06T04:36:59Z sunshavi: i am going to watch some videos on webmacs
2018-05-06T04:37:39Z beach: sunshavi: If you go McCLIM, you will have way fewer problems with the Qt maintainers making incompatible changes, and you will be programming in Common Lisp as opposed to some strange combination of Common Lisp and some lesser programming language.
2018-05-06T04:38:13Z sunshavi: beach: nice. That sounds promissing
2018-05-06T04:39:13Z sunshavi: i have done some gtk, some wxwidgets, vlc moved from wxwidgets to Qt. Then I though Qt is the way to go. But I could be wrong
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2018-05-06T04:39:47Z beach: sunshavi: On the other hand, as jackdaniel pointed out, McCLIM is less polished than Qt.  But then, you will have jackdaniel to help you with McCLIM and to help fix possible problems in McCLIM.
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2018-05-06T04:40:35Z hjek: sunshavi: depends what you're doing, I guess. CLIM is pretty cool in that it's extremely lispy, but it does require an X server so for cross-building it's not super nice. Then something like LTK is really neat. Or perhaps Qt.
2018-05-06T04:40:40Z beach: sunshavi: I am very biased.  I am totally in favor of programming in Common Lisp as opposed to other languages.
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2018-05-06T04:41:34Z sunshavi: well. I just have learn some basic emacs-lisp. On my more than 10 years tour using emacs. But never tried cL
2018-05-06T04:42:00Z beach: sunshavi: Looks like you are in for some journey.
2018-05-06T04:42:09Z beach: sunshavi: We'll be there for you if you want.
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2018-05-06T04:42:54Z sunshavi: hjek: hi
2018-05-06T04:43:03Z beach: sunshavi: Lucky for you, as I understand it, #lisp is one of the friendliest channels around.
2018-05-06T04:43:27Z hjek: hi
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2018-05-06T04:43:53Z sunshavi: beach: I am hanging around on #linux-sunxi, #armbian, #maemo-leste
2018-05-06T04:44:09Z beach: Good for you.
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2018-05-06T04:45:46Z sunshavi: but today I needed dbdesigner on my arm-workstation. when not available i turned on my x220. But I would like to start creating something like dbdesigner on lisp.
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2018-05-06T04:49:02Z sunshavi: hjek: LTK is related to FLTK?
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2018-05-06T04:49:16Z hjek: no, tcl/tk
2018-05-06T04:49:59Z hjek: so, probably alright for something about databases. (and probably not alright if it's something that needs to look native, or graphics heavy)
2018-05-06T04:51:01Z sunshavi: hjek: creating tables and relations and drag and drop does not seem graphics heavy
2018-05-06T04:51:40Z hjek: exactly
2018-05-06T04:51:44Z sunshavi: dbdesigner was done 15 years ago on kylix (delphi 4 linux)
2018-05-06T04:51:59Z sunshavi: and it works until today
2018-05-06T04:52:48Z sunshavi: McCLIM frames looks like emacs wit the lucid toolkit
2018-05-06T04:58:43Z sunshavi: McCLIM is based or modelled on gtk (top_level_window)?
2018-05-06T05:01:11Z hjek: sunshavi: no gtk in mcclim. i think it's pure X. but also there is supposedly a Cocoa back end for OS X
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2018-05-06T05:03:36Z sunshavi: nice
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2018-05-06T05:12:00Z sunshavi: McCLIM should work on wayland?
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2018-05-06T05:13:02Z jackdaniel: wayland has X-compatibility layer
2018-05-06T05:13:05Z jackdaniel: and it worked fine for me
2018-05-06T05:13:19Z jackdaniel: but native wayland wire protocol is not supported
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2018-05-06T05:27:07Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: nice
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2018-05-06T05:30:09Z sunshavi: i have done a couple of tutorials on CommonQt. a simple frame with just a title, and a frame with three widgets label, text, button
2018-05-06T05:32:01Z LdBeth: What dose the postscript backend do for CLIM?
2018-05-06T05:33:58Z jackdaniel: LdBeth: it produces postscript documents
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2018-05-06T05:36:46Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: just ps files or also pdf's?
2018-05-06T05:37:52Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: there is another backend called pdf
2018-05-06T05:38:01Z jackdaniel: it is fairly new, so I can't guarantee it works as expected
2018-05-06T05:38:03Z sunshavi: ok
2018-05-06T05:38:19Z jackdaniel: but you may load clim-examples, go to drawing examples and you'll have a button to generate from drawings ps / pdf
2018-05-06T05:38:27Z jackdaniel: and see what works and what doesn't
2018-05-06T05:39:33Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: I am installing McCLIM now it is on package drei-user now
2018-05-06T05:41:42Z LdBeth: jackdaniel: drawing frames in PostScript for document use?
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2018-05-06T05:43:49Z LdBeth: Or it can do more generalized drawings?
2018-05-06T05:44:38Z jackdaniel: afaik only generalized drawings
2018-05-06T05:44:55Z jackdaniel: application-frame doesn't make much sense on PS document
2018-05-06T05:45:24Z beach: LdBeth: It turns a McCLIM GUI into a PostScript document.
2018-05-06T05:46:36Z LdBeth: beach: Ok, that seems make sense
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2018-05-06T06:11:53Z sunshavi: I have an error on clim-demo
2018-05-06T06:11:55Z sunshavi: ; Evaluation aborted on #<BORDEAUX-THREADS::BORDEAUX-MP-CONDITION {54DFC5C1}>.
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2018-05-06T06:38:07Z sunshavi: also the default example is not working properly
2018-05-06T06:41:56Z phoe: sunshavi: #clim should be able to help you the best
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2018-05-06T06:56:48Z beach: sunshavi: What Common Lisp implementation are you using?
2018-05-06T06:57:32Z sunshavi: beach: sbcl
2018-05-06T06:57:34Z beach: sunshavi: And, was it compiled with threads enabled?  (I am just guessing here.  Normally, those examples work)
2018-05-06T06:58:11Z sunshavi: no idea. I just installed it "sudo pacman -S sbcl"
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2018-05-06T07:01:16Z beach: I don't know that installation source.  Sorry.
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2018-05-06T07:16:20Z hjek: jackdaniel: application-frame could make sense in postscript though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript
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2018-05-06T07:18:54Z beach: sunshavi: I am way outside my comfort zone here, but you could check whether :sb-thread is a member of the *features* list.
2018-05-06T07:21:12Z beach: hjek: A typical application for the PostScript backend (and for the PDF backend as well) would be if you have something like Gsharp (and editor for music scores).  The saved PostScript document should then be a printed version of the score.  The document should not contain the buttons, the interactor pane, the scroll bars, etc.
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2018-05-06T07:29:22Z Ukari: how to export a struct in defpackage?
2018-05-06T07:29:43Z beach: Ukari: structs and functions are not exported.  Symbols are.
2018-05-06T07:30:31Z Ukari: so i need to export symbols relates to the struct?
2018-05-06T07:30:34Z sunshavi: beach: sbcl on arm does not support threading :()
2018-05-06T07:30:44Z beach: sunshavi: Ouch!
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2018-05-06T07:31:08Z sunshavi: so: probably mcclim not possible just commonQt
2018-05-06T07:31:23Z beach: Or choose an implementation other than SBCL for that processor.
2018-05-06T07:31:42Z sunshavi: which one?
2018-05-06T07:32:11Z beach: Good question.  I am not the right person to ask.
2018-05-06T07:32:23Z sunshavi: no prob
2018-05-06T07:32:33Z beach: Ukari: You export whatever names you want to use from a different package, whether they be the name of the struct, the accessors, the constructors, whatever.
2018-05-06T07:32:40Z sunshavi: i'm going to the archwiki
2018-05-06T07:32:47Z shrdlu68: sunshavi: Try out ECL.
2018-05-06T07:34:24Z beach: sunshavi: Check with jackdaniel first.  He is the maintainer of ECL, and of McCLIM, so he would know whether that is good advice or not.
2018-05-06T07:35:15Z sunshavi: mmm. this machine is an arm machine
2018-05-06T07:35:19Z Ukari: i defstruct a (defstruct iterable-object (value nil) (next nil :type function)), and export by  (:export #:make-iterable-object #:iterable-object-next #:iterable-object-value)
2018-05-06T07:35:32Z Ukari: it works, but seems need to write too much details
2018-05-06T07:35:37Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: ECL supports threading on arm
2018-05-06T07:35:43Z beach: Ukari: No, that is normal.
2018-05-06T07:36:07Z beach: Ukari: The Common Lisp implementation can not decide for you what functionality you want to make available to client code.
2018-05-06T07:36:19Z Ukari: if my struct have n slots, i need write n more detial in defpackage
2018-05-06T07:36:26Z fourier: Ukari: have a look at cl-annot, they have @export-struct annotation or something
2018-05-06T07:37:20Z beach: Ukari: Like I told you, in a typical application you definitely do not want to export the names of the accessors of all the slots.  That would be contrary to good software-engineering practice.  And, again, the Common Lisp implementation can not decide what kind of protocol you want to suggest to client code.
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2018-05-06T07:38:12Z beach: Ukari: If it so happens that you are not applying any particular modularity concerns in this case, then unfortunately, you are the exception, and you then need to export everything.
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2018-05-06T07:39:43Z fourier: its a valid concern too actually, same with defclass and its readers/accessors
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2018-05-06T07:40:12Z beach: fourier: What concern is valid according to you?
2018-05-06T07:40:32Z fourier: about having to write a lot of manual "exports" for automatically generated functions
2018-05-06T07:40:47Z beach: fourier: So what I just said does not make sense to you?
2018-05-06T07:41:10Z beach: I guess I need to work on my skills for explaining things.
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2018-05-06T07:42:12Z beach: fourier: Only in applications that do not respect the slightest software-engineering technique would one want to export the names of all the accessors, and even less so of the slot names.
2018-05-06T07:42:17Z fourier: yes it makes sense. "I want to export all readers of this class/struct" - it is the applied modularity.
2018-05-06T07:42:34Z beach: fourier: Common Lisp was not made for people that have absolutely no concern for basic modularity.
2018-05-06T07:43:19Z beach: fourier: If you find yourself wanting to export the names of all the readers of some class, then there is very likely something wrong with your abstraction.
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2018-05-06T07:43:40Z fourier: why so? its a typicall pattern for plain data storage structs
2018-05-06T07:44:13Z beach: But then you probably would not put your struct in a separate package.
2018-05-06T07:44:24Z beach: So no need to discuss whether to export or not.
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2018-05-06T07:46:16Z beach: There could *occasionally* be a need for that, but not often.  Therefore, having to export everything is an exceptional situation.  For exceptional situations, you then have to deal with the additional work of manually exporting everything.  It would not make sense to have a special mechanism in the language for that, because it is, well, exceptional.
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2018-05-06T07:46:45Z fourier: you put it to separate package to avoid name collisions for trivial accessors like "name" "age" etc
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2018-05-06T07:49:34Z fourier: but anyway we have macros to do it for us so its not a big deal
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2018-05-06T07:49:45Z beach: Of course.  But if the struct is only used as an aggregation of stuff, it would typically be in the same package as the client code.  The package boundary is more likely used to define an abstract protocol that is not concerned with how things are stored.
2018-05-06T07:50:13Z beach: Again, I agree, there might be exceptional cases.
2018-05-06T07:50:32Z beach: And, again, because they are exceptional, there is no need for a specific mechanism for exporting everything.
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2018-05-06T07:51:11Z beach: So, again, yes, you would then have to manually include all the names in the package definition.  Big deal.
2018-05-06T07:51:39Z shrdlu68: Isn't there a way to iterate?
2018-05-06T07:51:54Z beach: For structs, not sure.
2018-05-06T07:52:06Z beach: For standard classes, you could use the MOP.
2018-05-06T07:52:17Z beach: mop class-slots
2018-05-06T07:52:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2018-05-06T07:52:50Z Ukari: I tried cl-annot.class export-defstructure but get a compile error...
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2018-05-06T07:58:07Z Ukari: beach's option is acceptable if treat defstruct into constructors-function and slot-function. but if treat defstruct as static defination of a struct and it need to be use somewhere just like class in java or struct in c header, i thought defstruct should be more combined than spearated into divided functions
2018-05-06T07:58:27Z Ukari: how about use a defmacro to defstruct and export the defmacro
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2018-05-06T08:04:40Z puchacz: hi, can salza2:deflate-compressor be passed an argument so it uses "no compression"?
2018-05-06T08:05:35Z puchacz: I want to let a user download a bunch of media files bundled together, and they are compressed already, so there is no point of wasting CPU (if there is any significant waste) on trying to compress them
2018-05-06T08:05:51Z puchacz: but I need to send them as a single file, so zip file format makes a good container
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2018-05-06T08:11:30Z Ukari: i use '(make-iterable-object :value nil :next nil)' with the defination '(defstruct iterable-object (value nil) (next nil :type function))', but it tells me :next is a function type and couldn't be nil
2018-05-06T08:12:10Z Ukari: Is there anyway to make nil and :type function coexist?
2018-05-06T08:13:32Z TMA: Ukari: you can use (or null function) as the type
2018-05-06T08:14:34Z Ukari: thanks, TMA
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2018-05-06T08:19:04Z Ukari: if there is a system foo, with some packages syntax, util, which naming style is suitable. 'cl-foo-syntax, cl-foo-util' or 'cl-foo.syntax, cl-foo.util'
2018-05-06T08:19:24Z Ukari: i found both of styles in some project
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2018-05-06T09:15:05Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: yes, ecl supports theads on armv7h
2018-05-06T09:15:09Z jackdaniel: same goes for ccl
2018-05-06T09:15:29Z jackdaniel: you may prefer ccl for development though (it produces more performant code)
2018-05-06T09:16:47Z jackdaniel: on the other hand I will be able to debug problems on McCLIM <-> ECL line (because I know both considerably well)
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2018-05-06T13:13:49Z oleo: try (next (lambda ()) :type function) ?
2018-05-06T13:14:17Z oleo: a noop
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2018-05-06T13:15:19Z oleo: or like TMA told (next nil :type (or null function))
2018-05-06T13:15:21Z oleo: hmmmm
2018-05-06T13:15:38Z oleo: second is better i think
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2018-05-06T13:18:29Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: thanks. then i am going to install ccl for trying McCLIM
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2018-05-06T13:56:22Z jmercouris: ArchLinux?
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2018-05-06T16:49:03Z Ukari: is cl-cont open source? i meet a wired warning which seems to tell that a argument's type is different from declared in cl-cont::lookup
2018-05-06T16:49:26Z Ukari: the message: "Derived type of CL-CONT::LOOKUP is (VALUES CONS &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)"
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2018-05-06T16:51:59Z Bike: uh, probably. did you get it from quicklisp? quicklisp distributes source.
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2018-05-06T16:54:55Z Fare: Ukari, the license says LLGPL
2018-05-06T16:55:46Z Fare: Ukari, smells like a bug. Can you fix it?
2018-05-06T16:56:17Z Ukari: let me find and try
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2018-05-06T17:50:32Z foojin: For some strange reason, I feel obliged to fix every bug I want to report.
2018-05-06T17:50:33Z foojin: Maybe it's about "having something to show instead of simply complaining", but in the end I find the submission/review process itself too difficult and apply the fix locally.
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2018-05-06T17:51:33Z shka_: lol
2018-05-06T17:51:39Z shka_: feel free to train on cl-ds :P
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2018-05-06T17:52:30Z phoe: foojin: what do you mean by too difficult?
2018-05-06T17:53:39Z phoe: also, which projects have you found bugs in?
2018-05-06T17:53:52Z phoe: are they on some public git host somewhere?
2018-05-06T17:54:16Z foojin: shka_: Right now I don't know enough Lisp to do so.
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2018-05-06T17:55:25Z foojin: phoe: For example vim, tmux, giflib and texinfo.
2018-05-06T17:56:18Z foojin: I've left out some of the more obscure ones.
2018-05-06T17:56:57Z jmercouris: You've found patches for Vim? tmux? I'm a little bit skeptical
2018-05-06T17:56:57Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: are you a student ?
2018-05-06T17:57:01Z phoe: foojin: ouch. these may have complicated contribution processes.
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2018-05-06T17:59:07Z foojin: Sometimes I just think I don't understand the codebase well enough to consider my solutions anything but hacks.
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2018-05-06T18:02:34Z foojin: THe giflib one is most likely fixed by now, because it's about long filenames messing with an uninitialized structure field, which breaks the whole thing randomly.
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2018-05-06T18:04:59Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: I was a student, but then some stuff happened, and now I'm no longer one.
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2018-05-06T18:08:01Z pjb: foojin: you're always a student, life-long student.
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2018-05-06T18:08:17Z foojin: The thing is, I'm not proud of what I do. Seeing how everything is so brittle and poorly understood even by its creators makes it hard to be proud of my small contributions.
2018-05-06T18:08:20Z pjb: foojin: it's not the little student card a university temporarily gives you that makes you a student.
2018-05-06T18:09:18Z pjb: foojin: perhaps you would want to study some formal verification?
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2018-05-06T18:17:43Z foojin: pjb: Yes, that way I could hopefully understand the issue from a mathematical perspective.
2018-05-06T18:17:46Z foojin: I'm also interested in learning type theory to gain some insight into what I (for a long time) thought is true: that all of mathematics has a computational content to it.
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2018-05-06T18:19:51Z Bike: yeah they're all about curry howard
2018-05-06T18:21:19Z foojin: Come to think of it, mathematics has already reached a level of complexity which can only be tackled by clever abstraction, so people _have to_ be clever about adding more to it.
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2018-05-06T18:24:00Z Bike: https://i.redd.it/lu6wqi8tv9w01.jpg
2018-05-06T18:24:27Z foojin: But it doesn't help to harness the power of computers, to save oneself from mediocrity of not being able to intervene in, say, the process of interpreting someone's minified Javascript.
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2018-05-06T18:29:41Z foojin: So I don't really know what to do in such a situation. BTW sorry for being off-topic and (possibly) being a nuisance.
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2018-05-06T18:31:00Z shka_: no human being should be in position of trying to figure out JS code
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2018-05-06T18:33:12Z foojin: The point is, even after learning enough to be able to fix broken stuff around me, it still feels like I'm not flying above the surface, but merely crawling out of an underground cave. It takes time just to stay afloat.
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2018-05-06T18:35:49Z foojin: shka_: Yes, for a long time I thought that JS is actually a decent language. Not anymore, not after reading about its coercion rules and having stuff break silently because of _syntax errors_.
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2018-05-06T18:40:56Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: I used to do that back when I used Gentoo
2018-05-06T18:41:28Z fe[nl]ix: had local patches for 30-40 packages on average, most of which I sent upstream
2018-05-06T18:41:37Z fe[nl]ix: now I dream of having that much free time
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2018-05-06T18:55:15Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: I'm going to install Gentoo for that very reason, but the last time I tried to switch I couldn't find a way to make emerge print dependencies in a sane way.
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2018-05-06T18:57:23Z fe[nl]ix: Gentoo definitely makes it easy to carry local patches
2018-05-06T18:59:22Z fe[nl]ix: although you can do it almost as easily using OBS (build.opensuse.org)
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2018-05-06T19:01:14Z Josh_2: Gentoo is lit
2018-05-06T19:01:45Z foojin: Digging around in ebuilds just to understand why it installs X along with Y isn't fun. I think a package manager should do it for me, so I'll try it for real when I get around to patching it.
2018-05-06T19:02:16Z Josh_2: There are other tools for that
2018-05-06T19:03:19Z Josh_2: equery does what you want
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2018-05-06T19:04:52Z foojin: By the way, what do you guys think about Guix? It looks like someone finally tries to make a "uniform" (configuration language-wise) distro for people who aren't afraid of programming.
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2018-05-06T19:06:03Z foojin: Josh_2: Like for every dependency, print a USE flag that pulls it in?
2018-05-06T19:06:34Z foojin: Josh_2: Assuming I haven't installed the package yet.
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2018-05-06T19:08:28Z Josh_2: Best ask in #gentoo they will certainly know
2018-05-06T19:08:41Z fe[nl]ix: foojin: Guix is also for people with lots of free time. you might like it
2018-05-06T19:08:43Z Josh_2: Equery is how you see all the dependencies and descriptions of use flags etc
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2018-05-06T19:11:08Z foojin: Josh_2: Then I'll try asking there when I get around to installing it again.
2018-05-06T19:14:12Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: The worst thing is that it's most likely true. "A distro for people with an \"optimal\" amount of free time to make it work like they want" looks like an unattainable ideal.
2018-05-06T19:14:51Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: Your milage about the amount of free time may also vary.
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2018-05-06T19:15:56Z foojin: *mileage*
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2018-05-06T19:23:19Z foojin: And that brings me to the main question: how to balance mediocrity (lack of control) and theoretical enlightment with perfect tuning and doing boring stuff like reading someone's C code / autoconf output / minified JS?
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2018-05-06T19:39:55Z foojin: TLDR: being proud of one's creations vs. making life easier and solving problems.
2018-05-06T19:41:05Z fe[nl]ix: adjust your expectations and learn to be proud of imperfect solutions
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2018-05-06T19:59:35Z foojin: fe[nl]ix: Seems like the way to go. The question of having the right to do so is best asked somewhere else anyways.
2018-05-06T19:59:39Z foojin: Sorry for exploding all over the place with something completely unrelated to the topic.
2018-05-06T20:01:23Z foojin: If I didn't make everyone sick already, I have a programming language-related question that I've been pondering for a while.
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2018-05-06T20:02:13Z foojin: (this time I *will* get that patch upstream for sure)
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2018-05-06T20:47:30Z phoe: foojin: well, ask it
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2018-05-06T21:03:31Z foojin: I was AFK for a bit. Trying to make it shorter at the moment.
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2018-05-06T21:17:00Z foojin: What features can make programs written in a (hopefully not hypothetical) language easier to extend, given that
2018-05-06T21:17:06Z foojin: (1) the authors don't know in advance what would need to be extended,
2018-05-06T21:17:12Z foojin: (2) the user is able to run his own scripts (think Emacs)
2018-05-06T21:17:16Z foojin: (3) the extensions should take advantage of further upstream improvements by augmenting existing things, not reimplementing them.
2018-05-06T21:18:29Z foojin: According to the history of Emacs, Stallman admitted to having used dynamic scoping for this very reason.
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2018-05-06T21:21:49Z TMA: foojin: treat every interaction between parts of a system as an extension point; do not use the extension points internally
2018-05-06T21:22:08Z foojin: Lexical scoping is immensely useful, but anyone, who "fixed" a chunk of closure-heavy JS with a so-called "userscript", would surely admit to having had a hard time working around them.
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2018-05-06T21:23:00Z phoe: foojin: use CLOS wherever possible for your basic functionality
2018-05-06T21:23:35Z phoe: CLOS itself is insanely extensible with its BEFORE/AROUND/AFTER methods and ability to define subclasses and new methods on same generics
2018-05-06T21:23:45Z phoe: and other, more complicated parts.
2018-05-06T21:24:29Z TMA: foojin: a concrete representation of my advice is: use CLOS, but do not use :before, :around or :after methods yourself to let them be available as the extension points
2018-05-06T21:24:55Z phoe: ^
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2018-05-06T21:33:06Z foojin: phoe, TMA: I've heard a lot about CLOS and MOP, they're the main reasons (besides Scheme's lack of libraries) I once again picked up "On Lisp". But what about a more "fundamental" data type, functions?
2018-05-06T21:33:59Z foojin: What do you think about an operator that creates a function F as if it was defined where another function G (given as a value) is (yes, it will impede compilation and possibly hold onto objects that no one will ever use).
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2018-05-06T21:35:48Z foojin: That could solve the problem of people stashing too much stuff inside closures, making their functions "unwrappable".
2018-05-06T21:38:15Z Bike: what? 'where' it's defined?
2018-05-06T21:39:18Z foojin: Bike: That is, in the same lexical context, to make it possible to replicate any closure.
2018-05-06T21:40:06Z Bike: so it would require having the point at which any function is defined have its entire lexical environment saved along with the function?
2018-05-06T21:40:13Z Bike: and what does that even have to do with CLOS
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2018-05-06T21:40:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hello
2018-05-06T21:41:38Z foojin: Nothing. I do think that CLOS is a more proncipled and general solution, so the last question isn't related to that.
2018-05-06T21:41:45Z foojin: *principled
2018-05-06T21:41:49Z phoe: instead of saving all the state in a lexical closure, save that state in a CLOS instance and use methods instead of functions
2018-05-06T21:42:16Z phoe: the "fundamental" data type that you describe will give you more PITA than a CLOS-oriented approach.
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2018-05-06T21:50:33Z foojin: phoe: I see. That seems to even take care of what's in scope, so that whatever the original author used would still be available for the extension code.
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2018-05-06T21:52:18Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-06T21:52:44Z MichaelRaskin: foojin: well, if you are ready to do partial recompilation, and to use a powerful enough code walker…
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2018-05-06T21:53:21Z DemolitionMan: any cl-influxdb user?
2018-05-06T21:53:44Z aeth: I personally see CLOS as *too* general and flexible of a solution
2018-05-06T21:54:07Z minion: aeth, memo from pjb: https://codeshare.io/5e8R97
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2018-05-06T21:54:14Z foojin: phoe: And the original author would have to deal with "undercomposition", if someone's extension requires their code to expose a particular point.
2018-05-06T21:54:16Z aeth: Nearly every time I started out with my own defgeneric/defmethod (as opposed to defining some method to fit someone else's API) I wound up converting it into a defun later.
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2018-05-06T21:55:39Z aeth: (I'm obviously excluding the methods that are generated automatically in defclass, of course)
2018-05-06T21:55:40Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: What's a code walker?
2018-05-06T21:56:11Z Bike: what does not using defgeneric have to do with being "too general"
2018-05-06T21:56:24Z Bike: i thought you were going to talk about method combinations or something, not the part everyone uses
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2018-05-06T21:56:46Z MichaelRaskin: A tool that allows to traverse the code after it has been written, and maybe even make some changes
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2018-05-06T22:00:36Z aeth: Bike: I think a lot of the time CLOS just offers flexibility where none is needed.
2018-05-06T22:00:39Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: sounds like Smalltalk rule-based refactoring
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2018-05-06T22:01:07Z Bike: i don't think "i thought i needed methods, but actually i didn't" is a very interesting story
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2018-05-06T22:01:26Z Bike: like if nothing else you should elaborate on the particular circumstances or something
2018-05-06T22:01:34Z Bike: object oriented programming is kind of big now
2018-05-06T22:01:54Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: So it's a interface which can be used by the program to modify itself, relying on the compiler to keep everything available?
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2018-05-06T22:02:20Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: Or did you mean a particular kind of editor that people use interactively?
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2018-05-06T22:02:51Z Bike: a code walker is a program that operates on code while understanding lisp semantics
2018-05-06T22:02:56Z Bike: a compiler can be understood as a kind of code walker
2018-05-06T22:03:04Z aeth: Bike: Idk, I think a lot of modern styles (some of which Lisp could do before CLOS even existed) could probably be described as "post-OOP" styles.
2018-05-06T22:03:30Z MichaelRaskin: Bike: full semantics is not really needed for a code walker, but understanding the general Lisp code structure is a must
2018-05-06T22:03:40Z Bike: yes, i mean like, special operator syntax and stuff
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2018-05-06T22:04:23Z aeth: Bike: If anything, I think we might be at the point where OOP is underused in places where it could be used, as a reaction to its earlier overuse.
2018-05-06T22:04:41Z aeth: (At least in new software.)
2018-05-06T22:04:46Z Bike: i thought i needed methods but i didn't, but also maybe we need more methods?
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2018-05-06T22:05:04Z aeth: I'm replying to "object oriented programming is kind of big now"
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2018-05-06T22:05:47Z aeth: Most of the "big" hype in languages these days seems to be people trying to copy and paste Haskell into JavaScript or the JVM.
2018-05-06T22:05:51Z Bike: in a way that directly contradicts what you seemed to be saying before?
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2018-05-06T22:06:12Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: With this definition in mind, would Emacs+Paredit qualify?
2018-05-06T22:06:18Z Bike: no
2018-05-06T22:06:39Z MichaelRaskin: Paredit doesn't understand let as something special
2018-05-06T22:06:55Z MichaelRaskin: I think
2018-05-06T22:07:02Z MichaelRaskin: And definitely not advanced macros
2018-05-06T22:07:07Z Bike: i mean, it balances parentheses
2018-05-06T22:07:11Z aeth: Bike: It's not a contradiction because I was talking about my own personal overuse of a CLOS feature before, and now I'm talking about what trends I've observed in programming language hype.
2018-05-06T22:07:13Z Bike: it doesn't know anything particular about lisp
2018-05-06T22:07:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: Why not rainbow parentheses?
2018-05-06T22:07:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: When you do )))))))))) it makes a rainbow.
2018-05-06T22:08:00Z MichaelRaskin: foojin: I would imagine — in Lisp terms — a custom readtable that leads to every form being wrapped in a macro that expands to what was originally written (by default)
2018-05-06T22:08:00Z aeth: theemacsshibe[m]: Why would I want to do manual parentheses matching?
2018-05-06T22:08:11Z aeth: Even with a visual aid?
2018-05-06T22:08:27Z MichaelRaskin: But then a user can request some override or ask to inject some code somewhere
2018-05-06T22:08:30Z theemacsshibe[m]: Fair enough
2018-05-06T22:08:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: I've just never got the hang of editors adding them for me.
2018-05-06T22:08:41Z MichaelRaskin: Because rainbows are pretty?
2018-05-06T22:09:07Z aeth: I prefer highlighting key words (not keywords!), not background noise, personally.
2018-05-06T22:09:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: Also that.
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2018-05-06T22:10:33Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: So it's not just a refactoring tool, it also works at runtime?
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2018-05-06T22:11:02Z MichaelRaskin: Compile-time, hopefully
2018-05-06T22:11:07Z Bike: maybe it would help to actually use one
2018-05-06T22:11:14Z Bike: i think you have a serious misperception
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2018-05-06T22:11:32Z MichaelRaskin: Or maybe it is better to say «load-time, doing some compiling»
2018-05-06T22:11:50Z foojin: Bike: I do, since it's the first time I've heard about it.
2018-05-06T22:12:05Z Bike: raskin wrote one, i forget what it's called though
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2018-05-06T22:12:54Z MichaelRaskin: Agnostic-Lizard
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2018-05-06T22:13:42Z MichaelRaskin: And in the repository, there is an example of the crazy wrap-everything trick
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2018-05-06T22:17:46Z foojin: MichaelRaskin: I'll check it out.
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2018-05-06T22:25:19Z foojin: I see. It basically allows one to run arbitrary queries against the source code, check assumptions ... like Coccinelle, which kernel folks use, but for Lisp?
2018-05-06T22:25:45Z Bike: "program matching and transformation engine" yeah sounds about right
2018-05-06T22:25:57Z Bike: i mean it's intended for basically arbitrary operations
2018-05-06T22:27:51Z foojin: BTW I wanted to learn Coccinelle to hack on tmux, but there's not much in the way of resources besides a language grammar and kernel-related checks.
2018-05-06T22:29:01Z foojin: I thought it would make reasoning about C easier, but it turned out to be a PITA in its own right.
2018-05-06T22:29:19Z MichaelRaskin: Agnostic Lizard is quite limited
2018-05-06T22:29:40Z MichaelRaskin: It just goes through the code and calls callbacks
2018-05-06T22:29:59Z Bike: well, that's pretty much whart code walkers do...
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2018-05-06T22:30:08Z MichaelRaskin: (in the process it macroexpands stuff)
2018-05-06T22:30:24Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it doesn't for example, come with a built-in variable renamer
2018-05-06T22:31:38Z foojin: Can it write out the transformed result with indentation intact?
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2018-05-06T22:32:31Z MichaelRaskin: It doesn't know the input indentation — it gets just the Lisp forms
2018-05-06T22:32:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: fun fact: symbolics went defunct 22 years ago
2018-05-06T22:32:52Z MichaelRaskin: (also, it expands most macros, so old indentation is not always even applicable)
2018-05-06T22:33:19Z Bike: the lisp printer can remake the indentation, but it shouts
2018-05-06T22:33:39Z Bike: foojin: in lisp we don't usually deal with source code as text/character sequences. metaiconicity and all that shit
2018-05-06T22:34:53Z MichaelRaskin: I guess some tools from SICL or Second Climacs (primarily by Robert Strandh) could be applied, those do care about text-code correspondence
2018-05-06T22:35:25Z Bike: homoiconicity. mixing up some shit
2018-05-06T22:37:20Z foojin: Bike: It would come in handy to automatically enforce guidelines, like those used in kernel development. Is it a good idea to make additional context information available for cases like this?
2018-05-06T22:37:35Z Bike: What kind of context information?
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2018-05-06T22:41:07Z foojin: Say, the indentation level and type, like ((spaces 2) (tabs 3) (spaces 1)). If it's too granular, provide functions to assemble a textual representation based on those cues.
2018-05-06T22:41:48Z Bike: syntax stuff? that's not really the point of a codewalker
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2018-05-06T22:43:44Z foojin: It would work just fine as-is, for checking code before trying to commit it, but large-scale refactoring would leave a mess instead of formatted code.
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2018-05-06T22:45:28Z Bike: you're thinking in terms of text. text is pretty much a separate question from what a code walker does.
2018-05-06T22:45:36Z MichaelRaskin: Well, for large-scale refactoring you could format from scratch
2018-05-06T22:45:44Z aeth: Comments are the real problem. Most CL code can be restored with *print-case* set to :downcase
2018-05-06T22:46:53Z aeth: And if you use fancier features so that isn't true then you probably already violate good style
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2018-05-06T22:49:59Z foojin: aeth: In other words it's not a problem, since there is such a thing as _the style_, which this *print-case* is aware of and everyone is encouraged to use?
2018-05-06T22:50:31Z Bike: not so much as there's a "the style", as that you can write a program that prints code as text in whatever style you want
2018-05-06T22:51:16Z aeth: Well, my original point is that you can theoretically restore everything but comments easily
2018-05-06T22:51:36Z aeth: Assuming you lower-case all of your symbols, as is usual
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2018-05-06T22:54:48Z foojin: Bike: Which in turn could make use of the code walker to distinguish forms based on their meaning. I didn't think of that.
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2018-05-06T22:55:25Z Bike: you could. i think emacs is dumber, but still usually works
2018-05-06T22:55:37Z Bike: beach has a lot of stuff in mind for a really smart editor that uses that kind of knowhow
2018-05-06T22:55:44Z Bike: er, robert strandh.
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2018-05-06T23:00:27Z foojin: Come to think of it, there are actually people out there who make Emacs parse all those programming languages, probably reimplementing sizable chunks of existing parsers.
2018-05-06T23:01:07Z foojin: I'm still uncomfortable with paredit just reindenting the whole thing after an operation. The author even admits to the shortcomings of this approach in a comment before paredit-convolute-sexp.
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2018-05-06T23:14:35Z foojin: By the way, why do Lispers use ^L in their programs, if not to take advantage of Emacs' narowing/moving functions?
2018-05-06T23:17:17Z p_l: foojin: it's not narrowing, it's page breaks
2018-05-06T23:17:35Z p_l: so you'll find it in some really old code
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2018-05-06T23:28:43Z foojin: p_l: I almost thought the reason would be to use it with some kind of tool that expects it. Maybe in Elisp world this is about consistency, seeing as it's used in Paredit, which doesn't seem too old.
2018-05-06T23:29:29Z p_l: foojin: ^L predates GNU Emacs, and afaik by itself gets hooked into "next/prev-page" commands
2018-05-06T23:29:58Z p_l: so in a sense, poor man's micro outliner for source code?
2018-05-06T23:30:19Z p_l: Whether the general idea happened first in Emacs is hard to say
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2018-05-07T00:00:34Z DemolitionMan: hi
2018-05-07T00:01:02Z DemolitionMan: please how can I encode rfc3339 date time into nanoseconds integer 64? hanks for helo
2018-05-07T00:01:05Z DemolitionMan: help
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2018-05-07T00:18:07Z MichaelRaskin: Does this format even contain anything below seconds?
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2018-05-07T00:43:00Z Bike: doesn't look like it. so nanoseconds just gives it a scaling factor, easy
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2018-05-07T00:44:18Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, nanoseconds eat quite a bit of bits. But 64-bit number should still be able to represent entire 21st century. And 22nd too, if unsigned
2018-05-07T00:44:32Z Bike: that's enough centuries for anybody.
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2018-05-07T00:47:32Z MichaelRaskin: So said Mayas; look at all the panic when their notation ran out.
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2018-05-07T00:52:50Z Bike: it didn't run out, just had to go to the next highest digit
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2018-05-07T00:53:30Z MichaelRaskin: That's true, but that digits seems to be underspecified enough
2018-05-07T00:54:07Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, Unix time also doesn't run out in 2038, it's just that some systems store it in a way with not enough space for the next digit
2018-05-07T00:56:24Z Bike: well, they should have more bits for the next b'ak'tun
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2018-05-07T01:22:53Z Fare: MichaelRaskin, the problem with nanosecond encoding of something defined up to one-second adjustments is... what happen at leap seconds?
2018-05-07T01:24:01Z Fare: (That said... it's the time encoding I use in Gerbil's clan/utils/date.ss so who am I to cast any stone?)
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2018-05-07T03:26:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-07T03:26:47Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-05-07T03:30:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: afternoon, beach
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2018-05-07T04:46:06Z phoe: Morning
2018-05-07T04:46:39Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2018-05-07T05:51:06Z loke: I'm looking at the Maxima code, and I see this.
2018-05-07T05:51:22Z loke: Am I stupid, or is this just equivalent to (unless point-lists ...)?
2018-05-07T05:51:32Z loke: (when (= (count-if #'(lambda (x) x) points-lists) 0) ...)
2018-05-07T05:52:08Z loke: Hmm... I guess it also handles arrays...
2018-05-07T05:52:40Z White_Flame: the WHEN passes if there are no NILs in the lisp
2018-05-07T05:52:41Z White_Flame: *list
2018-05-07T05:52:48Z loke: Ah yes. of course.
2018-05-07T05:52:53Z White_Flame: so '(1 2 3 4 5) will pass, '(1 2 nil 4 5) will fail
2018-05-07T05:52:59Z loke: If all elements in the list are empty sequences.
2018-05-07T05:53:27Z White_Flame: of course, there would be a few ways to collapse that lambda to make it shorter
2018-05-07T05:53:41Z loke: No wait... it counts if _any_ elements are nil
2018-05-07T05:53:49Z White_Flame: and instead of count, do a simpler exists check
2018-05-07T05:54:10Z loke: so it's equivalent to (some #'null X)
2018-05-07T05:54:17Z White_Flame: ah, right
2018-05-07T05:54:30Z loke: No wait
2018-05-07T05:54:33Z White_Flame: it's still not a simple UNLESS
2018-05-07T05:54:35Z loke: the opposite
2018-05-07T05:54:58Z White_Flame: can you tell from the context what it's trying to do semantically?
2018-05-07T05:55:28Z loke: It contains a list of lists of poitns to be plotted in a graph
2018-05-07T05:55:38Z loke:  ;; Compute points to plot for each element of FUN.    ;; If no plottable points are found, return immediately from $PLOT2D.
2018-05-07T05:55:54Z White_Flame: ok, so the WHEN is an abort clause
2018-05-07T05:56:08Z White_Flame: if it's a list of NILs, or empty, bail
2018-05-07T05:56:38Z White_Flame: well, if it's a list of generalize boolean falses, or empty :-P
2018-05-07T05:58:27Z loke: Ok, so it's (every #'null LISTS)
2018-05-07T06:00:20Z loke: Maxima is really old code, and it's still maintained to support every Lis under the sun. They still maintain GCL compatibility.
2018-05-07T06:00:34Z loke: Perhaps some implementation doesn't support #'IDENTITY
2018-05-07T06:01:33Z aeth: seems like you could make that more efficient
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2018-05-07T06:33:32Z blep-on-external: i've finally hit the point where i can write cl-who macros without making mistakes c:
2018-05-07T06:33:56Z blep-on-external: maybe i should generalise my macros now
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2018-05-07T06:34:08Z MichaelRaskin: Fare: trust me, the problem also exists when you just use the number of seconds
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2018-05-07T06:35:23Z ealfonso: I was told by someone here that by using cl-json instead of jonathan, I could avoid the hack of adding '("application" "json") to drakma:*text-content-types*... does that person know what cl-json method I should be using?
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2018-05-07T06:37:42Z loke: ealfonso: why would you do that?
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2018-05-07T06:39:08Z loke: ealfonso: you do somehting like this: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/xkcd-processor.lisp#L17
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2018-05-07T06:40:45Z ealfonso: so body seems to be some kind of byte array, which jonathan doesn't understand
2018-05-07T06:41:19Z loke: I don't know what jonathan is.
2018-05-07T06:41:35Z loke: But what I do in the code I linked should be similar with any JSON library.
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2018-05-07T06:42:13Z loke: If the remote server doesn't use the correct content-type, you can always parse it yourself like this:
2018-05-07T06:42:30Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/youtube-processor.lisp#L40
2018-05-07T06:42:52Z DemolitionMan: hi
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2018-05-07T06:44:39Z ealfonso: loke https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries this website suggests the hack I've been using. body appears to be some kind of byte array, which "no JSON library knows what to do with it."
2018-05-07T06:44:57Z ealfonso: but then someone here mentioned cl-json does handle it
2018-05-07T06:45:17Z loke: ealfonso: You convert the byte arraqy to a string using UTF-8 encoding
2018-05-07T06:45:32Z loke: (babel:octets-to-string THE-BYTE-ARRAY :encoding :utf-8)
2018-05-07T06:46:44Z LdBeth: Is there a lib auto detect encoding?
2018-05-07T06:47:08Z blep-on-external: on the topic of json, are there any libraries which decode to hash-maps? cl-json only encodes from hashmaps
2018-05-07T06:47:24Z ealfonso: loke thanks, I guess that worked
2018-05-07T06:47:59Z ealfonso: blep-on-external I'm using jonathan, but cl-json has cl-json:custom-decoder
2018-05-07T06:48:06Z jdz: blep-on-external: pretty sure cl-yason uses hash-tables.
2018-05-07T06:48:08Z DemolitionMan: please help: https://pastebin.com/BFuq4gGW
2018-05-07T06:48:10Z DemolitionMan: :)
2018-05-07T06:48:37Z ealfonso: blep-on-external no idea if that will do what you ant
2018-05-07T06:48:49Z LdBeth: blep-on-external-blep: cl-yaml probably could do that
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2018-05-07T06:49:33Z LdBeth: Is JSON really a subset of YAML?
2018-05-07T06:49:37Z blep-on-external: well, anything with a "symmetrical" read/write
2018-05-07T06:49:47Z blep-on-external: like i can use assoc for read but for write i get duplicates
2018-05-07T06:50:00Z blep-on-external: getf seems to have (setf (get ...)) which is interesting
2018-05-07T06:50:42Z ealfonso: loke it is curious that I'm precisely writing a youtube-api client
2018-05-07T06:52:07Z blep-on-external: given that getf is symmetrical i'll just use that. thanks for the reccomendation though
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2018-05-07T07:10:04Z hajovonta: hello
2018-05-07T07:10:46Z LdBeth: sup
2018-05-07T07:10:54Z hajovonta: nada :)
2018-05-07T07:11:20Z hajovonta: working myself through a pile of emails
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2018-05-07T07:52:51Z beach: DemolitionMan: There are several stylistic problems with your code.
2018-05-07T07:53:57Z beach: DemolitionMan: I find it hard to concentrate on the logic, because I am distracted by the unconventional style.
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2018-05-07T07:56:19Z beach: DemolitionMan: But if you want to, I can give you feedback on the style issues.
2018-05-07T07:58:20Z dim: beach: do you have an opinion on the https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf document?
2018-05-07T07:59:16Z beach: dim: Yes, I follow it pretty closely.  Especially page 13 where they explain how the expectations are violated in various situations.
2018-05-07T08:01:13Z beach: dim: The authors are very experience programmers and very experienced Lispers.  I find it insulting when some much less experienced person claims that their advice is without merit.
2018-05-07T08:01:58Z DemolitionMan: beach: stylistic? is that a matter of fashion ?
2018-05-07T08:02:19Z dim: beach: +1
2018-05-07T08:02:23Z beach: DemolitionMan: Are you trying to be witty?
2018-05-07T08:02:41Z dim: DemolitionMan: read the document I've linked and then decide for yourself, the paper is very good at explaining why it's important
2018-05-07T08:03:13Z DemolitionMan: dim: I read it long ago
2018-05-07T08:04:15Z shka: i like beach style guide
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2018-05-07T08:05:00Z beach: DemolitionMan: Anyway, I take your remark to mean that you do not want such feedback.
2018-05-07T08:05:05Z shka: it is reasonable short, at least
2018-05-07T08:05:21Z DemolitionMan: beach: thanks
2018-05-07T08:06:12Z dim: there was another document that I liked very much about programming style, from the Erlang community, which insisted on showing your intentions
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2018-05-07T08:06:55Z dim: in the example they gave they ended up with mostly one-line function bodies and very long function names, and reading the code, it was pretty obvious what they wanted to happen
2018-05-07T08:07:12Z beach: Sounds like good advice.
2018-05-07T08:07:18Z dim: so my main programming style focus is “make your intention obvious”
2018-05-07T08:07:58Z ealfonso: is it ok to use -> in CL?
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2018-05-07T08:08:14Z ealfonso: threading macro
2018-05-07T08:08:34Z dim: oh apparently there's a whole Wikipedia entry on the topic at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_programming
2018-05-07T08:09:45Z dim: oh and I wrote a Common Lisp related blog post about that in https://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/solving-every-sudoku-puzzle/ too ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:11:11Z beach: dim: Thanks for the information.
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2018-05-07T08:12:42Z jackdaniel: ealfonso: sure - if you use it consistently why not
2018-05-07T08:12:52Z jackdaniel: it is not that programming style does not evolve
2018-05-07T08:12:59Z jackdaniel: and evolution requires small deviations
2018-05-07T08:13:14Z dim: sorry about the self promotion... remembering and finding again writings of 6 years ago doesn't happen a lot to me
2018-05-07T08:13:26Z jackdaniel: (that said, Norvig's guide is excellent)
2018-05-07T08:14:04Z jackdaniel: dim: I think it is fine if the post is relevant and interesting
2018-05-07T08:15:18Z dim: it's not as relevant as Norvig's paper, but well
2018-05-07T08:15:44Z beach: dim: Your blog thingy could need some style improvements as well.
2018-05-07T08:15:49Z dim: anyway I'm having to get back to writing C code and SQL unit tests ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:16:25Z dim: beach: yeah, I like it that I've been able to make it all by myself, but it shows and in a bad way :/
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2018-05-07T08:16:53Z dim: beach: is it more about the English or the visuals?
2018-05-07T08:16:58Z beach: dim: Also, if you wrote this some time ago, your style has probably improved since.
2018-05-07T08:17:22Z dim: I think it has, in huge parts thanks to the pro reviewing I got when editing my book
2018-05-07T08:17:33Z beach: dim: Let me have a second look and I'll tell you...
2018-05-07T08:17:38Z jackdaniel: speaking of blogging, a very interesting use of JSCL: http://blog.klipse.tech/lisp/2018/05/07/blog-common-lisp.html
2018-05-07T08:17:54Z jackdaniel: you can embed executable CL (with some limitations, JSCL is incomplete) in your blogpost
2018-05-07T08:18:09Z beach: Anyway, I find it, let's say "interesting" when people ask for help with some code, i.e. they want others to read, understand, and help fix it.  But then they can't be bothered to respect even the most basic conventions about code layout and other stylistic rules.
2018-05-07T08:18:39Z jackdaniel: to be fair many newcomers fix the indentation and patiently wait for further advices
2018-05-07T08:20:13Z beach: dim: Several indentation problems: Body of MAKE-ARRAY in the first example. Argument of POSSIBLE-VALUES.
2018-05-07T08:20:19Z flip214: dim: find-position-with-fewest-possibilities: how about using (ITERATE ... (MINIMIZE ...)?) Not sure whether LOOP has MINIMIZE, too.
2018-05-07T08:20:37Z shka: hmmm, norvig guide is very informative
2018-05-07T08:20:40Z beach: dim: Useless newline after LOOP, probably because you weren't using SLIME-INDENTATION at the time.
2018-05-07T08:21:25Z beach: dim: The line starting with IN in the LOOP should be indented to show that it is not a separate clause.  SLIME-INDENTATION will do that.
2018-05-07T08:22:07Z beach: dim: Use of (+ ... 1) and (- ... 1) should be replaced by 1+ and 1-.  The rule is to use the most specific construct that will work.
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2018-05-07T08:22:34Z shka: redirecting trace-output to file looks like usefull trick
2018-05-07T08:22:47Z beach: dim: I personally never use WITH-SLOTS because I consider slots to be an implementation detail.  I use WITH-ACCESSORS instead.
2018-05-07T08:23:16Z beach: dim: I also don't put blank lines in the middle of function bodies.
2018-05-07T08:24:38Z beach: dim: The naming convention for predicates in Common Lisp is to end the name with `P' rather than `?' as in VALUE-IS-SET-P.
2018-05-07T08:25:37Z dim: beach: normally the indentation is all done with Emacs/SLIME, I rarely overrule it… in the case of the article, I wonder how much of it is a rendering issue
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2018-05-07T08:25:56Z beach: It could be, especially if you allow Emacs to use TABs.
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2018-05-07T08:26:17Z beach: dim: There is a flag you can set in Emacs so that it always uses spaces.
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2018-05-07T08:26:39Z beach: dim: The LOOP problem is very likely the lack of SLIME-INDENTATION though.
2018-05-07T08:26:53Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/tapoueh.org/blob/master/content/post/2012/07/solving-sudoku.md is the source, but well, I can't suppose you'll be interested that much, thanks already for having had a look; also I don't think I'm going to fix it anyway (too many other things to do)
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2018-05-07T08:27:09Z beach: Sure, just saying.
2018-05-07T08:27:21Z dim: thanks for spending time on my article by all means!
2018-05-07T08:27:34Z beach: Anytime.
2018-05-07T08:27:58Z dim: beach: using #'1-, I can't read that easily still, so I avoid it
2018-05-07T08:28:02Z beach: The argument to POSSIBLE-VALUES seems to be a TAB problem.
2018-05-07T08:28:19Z beach: dim: I see.  But here is the reason for those...
2018-05-07T08:28:27Z dim: I liked what pjb had to say about that, that 1+ and 1- are very good when used as function arguments, not so much for computation
2018-05-07T08:29:10Z dim: with-accessors, I'll have a look at that
2018-05-07T08:29:29Z dim: I seldom use with-slots in “real” code, but it sometimes comes in handy
2018-05-07T08:29:59Z beach: dim: If you have (- <very-long-expression> 1) you don't see that it is 1 that is subtracted until much later.  So the person reading the code must "push that on the stack" until the second argument of #'- is available.  If #'1- is used instead, no additional memory is needed on the part of the person reading the code.
2018-05-07T08:30:20Z dim: good point
2018-05-07T08:30:34Z dim: nowadays I've found myself writing (+ -1 ...) more and more often
2018-05-07T08:31:04Z beach: The same thing is true for many of the other instances of the rule "use the most specific construct that will work".
2018-05-07T08:31:11Z dim: I find it so much easier to then hack around when you have off-by-one bugs or other adjustments to make
2018-05-07T08:31:26Z beach: I can see that.
2018-05-07T08:32:05Z dim: I feel a little stupid each time I write (+ -1...), but I thank myself each time I have to revisit such written code
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2018-05-07T08:32:35Z beach: dim: Interestingly, that particular version has the same property that I just mentioned about #'1-.
2018-05-07T08:33:19Z beach: dim: I.e. once you get to the ... part, you already know that 1 is going to be subtracted.
2018-05-07T08:33:19Z dim: it does
2018-05-07T08:33:32Z dim: except that I'm never sure what happens with 1-
2018-05-07T08:33:45Z beach: You'll learn.
2018-05-07T08:33:48Z dim: like #'/, I find it hard to read, so I'd rather use truncate
2018-05-07T08:34:16Z beach: Many non-native speakers of English find the use of UNLESS problematic.  That was the case for me in the beginning.
2018-05-07T08:34:35Z beach: But it is well worth getting used to.
2018-05-07T08:35:35Z LdBeth: then you have #'COMPOSE to do tacit programming to avoid nesting
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2018-05-07T08:35:46Z dim: unless has a special place in my mind, because I used to despise those forms in perl and I really like them in lisp, and I did need some thinking to realize that Perl allowing them after the statement is what I don't like
2018-05-07T08:35:56Z dim: do stuff or die "trying";
2018-05-07T08:36:08Z dim: (unless ... (do ...)) ; that I can read easily ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:37:07Z beach: dim: Oh, yes, I understand completely.
2018-05-07T08:37:34Z dim: LdBeth: I don't much care about avoiding nesting, let's optimize for code READING, nesting is a good hint; and if you have too much nesting anyway then just split the code into more “units” (functions, usually)
2018-05-07T08:37:38Z beach: dim: That's making it hard to read BY DESIGN.
2018-05-07T08:38:28Z dim: yeah well that's Perl, what did you expect? ;-)
2018-05-07T08:39:27Z LdBeth: That’s why I think LOOP macro improves readability
2018-05-07T08:39:30Z shka: well, it is difficult to build style by solo programming
2018-05-07T08:39:57Z shka: and honestly, that's what i do in the lisp land
2018-05-07T08:40:31Z beach: shka: Bah, just do what I do; submit your code here for people to read.  You will get ample feedback that way.
2018-05-07T08:40:41Z dim: hehe
2018-05-07T08:40:54Z dim: it's easy to get reviews on code style on a 10 lines snippet
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2018-05-07T08:41:06Z dim: it's not as easy to get architecture feedback on complete systems
2018-05-07T08:41:13Z dim: which is fine
2018-05-07T08:41:14Z beach: True 'dat.
2018-05-07T08:41:20Z dim: I'm just more interested in the latter
2018-05-07T08:42:43Z dim: in the past by mentioning problems I had with some pgloader code I got enough incentive to rewrite subsystems entirely, which is good already
2018-05-07T08:44:43Z dim: the new code is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pg-copy/copy-format.lisp by the way, much better than before if you can believe that ;-)
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2018-05-07T08:45:20Z shka: beach: and get totally roasted :D
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2018-05-07T08:54:01Z beach: shka: Yes, that's part of the learning experience.  Same thing when learning a foreign language.  The most efficient way is to start talking and writing, being ridiculed, and then using that feedback to improve.
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2018-05-07T08:55:02Z beach: dim: Norvig and Pitman would disagree with (IF ROW...
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2018-05-07T08:55:25Z beach: dim: Same with (WHEN PG-VECTOR-ROW...
2018-05-07T08:55:58Z beach: dim: And you LOOP body is still badly indented, suggesting you are still not using SLIME-INDENTATION.
2018-05-07T08:57:32Z beach: dim: You can save one level of indentation by replacing (loop for ... (let ((<var> ...)) by (loop for ... for <var> ... ...
2018-05-07T08:58:12Z beach: dim: Useless PROGNs in COND clauses.  COND has an implicit PROGN in each clause.
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2018-05-07T09:00:03Z LdBeth: A static syntax checker would be helpful
2018-05-07T09:00:40Z beach: LdBeth: Sounds like you found yourself a good project.
2018-05-07T09:01:46Z _death: dim: my imagined ELIMINATE would closely follow Norvig's, something like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/779#779
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2018-05-07T09:12:34Z loke: I've started working on graphs in Climaxima: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XFUYNHbVyEcQKYiL7
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2018-05-07T09:14:33Z beach: Nice!
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2018-05-07T09:16:04Z dim: beach: I tend to use useless progn for indentation hints in Emacs :/
2018-05-07T09:17:16Z dim: I'll need to re-read the style's guide then
2018-05-07T09:17:24Z beach: dim: But you don't do it consistently.
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2018-05-07T09:18:18Z beach: dim: So that makes the person reading your code think that there is some subtle difference between different clauses.  Perhaps you grep for progn in some other tool, or perhaps you have a code walker that treats the PROGN clauses differently.
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2018-05-07T09:18:36Z dim: the pgloader project is old enough that my style changed in the way I guess
2018-05-07T09:18:56Z beach: Sure, but you see what I am saying, right?
2018-05-07T09:18:59Z dim: yeah
2018-05-07T09:19:35Z dim: I'm not sure I want to fix Emacs/SLIME display of cond clauses so that I don't have to use progn to get the visuals that help me though...
2018-05-07T09:20:29Z dim: in that case, progn doesn't bring anything on the table I'm afraid
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2018-05-07T09:22:43Z beach: dim: Also, I use #.(format nil ...) for documentation strings that span several lines.  That way I can use the ~@ FORMAT directive so that I can align all lines with the first.
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2018-05-07T09:23:19Z beach: dim: I find it very distracting to have documentation strings in column 0, and in fact, Emacs doesn't handle that situation very well either.
2018-05-07T09:25:24Z beach: dim: Oh, and you can save yet another level of indentation by replacing (LET ((LENGTH ...) (STRING ...)) (LOOP FOR... with (LOOP WITH LENGTH = WITH STRING = FOR.
2018-05-07T09:29:18Z loke: beach: That graph I shared really shows that we need xrender for drawing lines
2018-05-07T09:29:44Z loke: Another alternative is to write a new backend that uses Cairo
2018-05-07T09:30:48Z beach: loke: I think we should use xrender for everything, if possible.
2018-05-07T09:30:57Z loke: beach: Yeah
2018-05-07T09:31:15Z beach: That way, we will be closer to what other backends such as OpenGL would do.
2018-05-07T09:31:32Z loke: I have had a hard time finding an example (in C, even) how to draw a simple polygon using xrender
2018-05-07T09:31:46Z loke: It was easier to find one for text, which is where I started when I did the new text renderer.
2018-05-07T09:31:59Z beach: Yeah, it is very poorly documented.  Adding a CLX layer on top makes it even harder.
2018-05-07T09:32:14Z beach: Hell, I can't even understand the protocol specification, even though I have tried many times.
2018-05-07T09:32:17Z loke: That's fine for me acutally. I had to dig into that when I was doing text with xrender.
2018-05-07T09:32:21Z loke: It's not that complictaed.
2018-05-07T09:32:53Z beach: Good.  Then it would be great to make the CLX documentation independent of the xlib and protocol specifications.
2018-05-07T09:33:21Z loke: beach: We'd need to use Cairo for that then
2018-05-07T09:33:36Z beach: Why?
2018-05-07T09:33:37Z loke: beach: Goign to cairo pretty much means implementing a new backend.
2018-05-07T09:33:48Z beach: Why do we need Cairo?
2018-05-07T09:33:49Z loke: Because Xrender is still very much CLX level
2018-05-07T09:34:09Z beach: Sure.  I just meant the CLX documentation.
2018-05-07T09:34:09Z loke: So if you want to be independnt on CLX, we need a higher level API, and that's Cairo.
2018-05-07T09:34:15Z beach: No, no.
2018-05-07T09:34:18Z beach: Not independent of CLX.
2018-05-07T09:34:30Z beach: I want the CLX documentation to be self contained.
2018-05-07T09:34:56Z beach: Not requiring the reader to understand C xlib or the protocol specification.
2018-05-07T09:35:18Z loke: beach: Hmm...
2018-05-07T09:36:11Z beach: I totally hate documentation that requires the reader to read and understand some other documentation and to do some mental translation between them.
2018-05-07T09:36:21Z loke: I'd really prefer to see a cairo backend actually. Cairo has so much stuff that I'd like to be able to use, instead of having to rebuild it from scratch, poorly.
2018-05-07T09:37:08Z beach: That's a separate issue, though.
2018-05-07T09:37:34Z loke: Indeed
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2018-05-07T09:38:47Z loke: Looking at this paper now, which is what I need to implement the core operations using xrender: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/87_2-04.pdf
2018-05-07T09:41:48Z beach: loke: xrender can already do triangles.
2018-05-07T09:41:56Z beach: Just represent a line as two triangles.
2018-05-07T09:42:06Z loke: beach: Right, but you need to be able to do circles, ellipses, bezier curves
2018-05-07T09:42:26Z beach: Those are not too hard either.
2018-05-07T09:42:50Z loke: The paper addresses the issue of ensuring that the stroke width is consistent
2018-05-07T09:43:27Z beach: I see.
2018-05-07T09:43:32Z loke: That's not entirely trivial
2018-05-07T09:43:39Z beach: I can believe that.
2018-05-07T09:43:40Z loke: (at least if you want it to be fast)
2018-05-07T09:44:42Z loke: This is a problem for my graphs as well, since just drawing a thick line using a rectngle will create very ugly effects near the joins.
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2018-05-07T09:45:20Z loke: The algorithm in the paper seems to do the right thing.
2018-05-07T09:45:36Z beach: OK, good.  Keep reading, then!!! :)
2018-05-07T09:46:39Z loke: I am, but even though I do understand a bit of sthis stuff (having done grasterised graphics effects since the 80's) but I really would like to be able to leverage existing libraries. :-)
2018-05-07T09:47:13Z beach: I fully understand.
2018-05-07T09:47:51Z loke: beach: I'd really love it if someone else could implement this thing. :-)
2018-05-07T09:48:17Z DemolitionMan: beach: solved!
2018-05-07T09:49:23Z beach: loke: You may be out of luck.
2018-05-07T09:57:35Z beach: DemolitionMan: Congratulations.
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2018-05-07T09:57:48Z DemolitionMan: beach: not ar all
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2018-05-07T09:58:52Z DemolitionMan: beach: not at all, only an half joy due to poor style of my programs
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2018-05-07T10:00:21Z beach: DemolitionMan: The purpose was not to give you a hard time, but to give you a chance to improve.
2018-05-07T10:00:56Z DemolitionMan: beach: this wasn't a complain, I know, I know
2018-05-07T10:01:51Z DemolitionMan: beach: anyway, a lot of people that wrote common lisp code for packages (even in quicklisp repository) are worse than me
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2018-05-07T10:03:16Z beach: DemolitionMan: Sure, that is entirely possible.  But that's no excuse to rest on your laurels.
2018-05-07T10:03:50Z DemolitionMan: beach: yes, definitely - the problem is the time
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2018-05-07T10:04:22Z DemolitionMan: beach: you know, programs have to be ready before specifications, most of the times :)
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2018-05-07T10:05:43Z DemolitionMan: beach: having more time, it would be nice to talk with you about the code I posted... Seriously
2018-05-07T10:07:30Z beach: DemolitionMan: Whenever you want (or nearly so).
2018-05-07T10:07:37Z DemolitionMan: beach: ok
2018-05-07T10:08:42Z DemolitionMan: beach: do you think design patterns are useful? Can you suggest a common lisp book on patterns?
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2018-05-07T10:09:01Z beach: I am unaware of such a book.
2018-05-07T10:09:10Z DemolitionMan: ok
2018-05-07T10:09:23Z DemolitionMan: aren't them a sort of "standard"
2018-05-07T10:09:24Z DemolitionMan: ?
2018-05-07T10:10:45Z jdz: DemolitionMan: this might be relevant: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf
2018-05-07T10:11:37Z LdBeth: Any recommendations on plain text typesetting tools?
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2018-05-07T10:11:48Z schjetne: Maybe if there was a need to rapidly on-board a large number of Common Lisp developers there would be a market for such a book.
2018-05-07T10:12:56Z DemolitionMan: jdz: thanks!
2018-05-07T10:14:25Z DemolitionMan: jdz: are design patterns more suited for such programming languages that lacks some features?
2018-05-07T10:14:57Z DemolitionMan: jdz: like higher order functions?
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2018-05-07T10:17:29Z LdBeth: I can’t tell a few “modern” programming languages that doesn’t support higher old functions yet.
2018-05-07T10:17:52Z DemolitionMan: c
2018-05-07T10:18:53Z LdBeth: You have C++
2018-05-07T10:19:01Z DemolitionMan: which is not c
2018-05-07T10:19:15Z LdBeth: Which is usually considered as successor of C
2018-05-07T10:19:29Z aeth: tell that to Linus
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2018-05-07T10:21:00Z DemolitionMan: LdBeth: c++ is more than a monster of its own than a successor
2018-05-07T10:21:04Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp as a "programmable programming language" is a language to *write* programming languages. Therefore Common Lisp *has* no design patterns, instead you *write* design patterns with it. What kind of these design patterns that may be is *your* choice. That's a major difference to other programming languages.
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2018-05-07T10:21:39Z theemacsshibe[m]: > Any recommendations on plain text typesetting tools?
2018-05-07T10:21:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: TeX?
2018-05-07T10:21:55Z theemacsshibe[m]: Markdown? Restructured Text?
2018-05-07T10:22:27Z edgar-rft: cl:format
2018-05-07T10:22:31Z LdBeth: no-defun-allowed: I just wonder if I can have something other than troff
2018-05-07T10:22:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: edgar-rft makes a good point
2018-05-07T10:22:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'd go for TeX then.
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2018-05-07T10:23:16Z LdBeth: TeX doesn’t make plain text outputs
2018-05-07T10:23:34Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh, I see.
2018-05-07T10:23:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: cl:format doesn't sound too bad then.
2018-05-07T10:23:56Z shrdlu68: "c++ is to C as lung cancer is to lung" - from the Unix-haters handbook.
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2018-05-07T10:24:19Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: ehehe
2018-05-07T10:24:37Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: are you still involved with colored spheres, cones, cubes and so on?
2018-05-07T10:24:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: Rust is to C as JavaScript is to Java.
2018-05-07T10:25:43Z shrdlu68: DemolitionMan: I just picked the name coz I like that era of AI. Shoulda gone with LogicTheorist instead.
2018-05-07T10:26:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: Actually no, Java is already pretty bad.
2018-05-07T10:26:08Z LdBeth: Well, then, I admit C++ sucks and don’t want to spend much time talk about it. And it might be my fault to bring that into discussion since I had some sort of foreseeing the result.
2018-05-07T10:26:10Z DemolitionMan: shrdlu68: :) nice
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2018-05-07T10:26:45Z DemolitionMan: LdBeth: I programmed c++ for a long time :) don't worry
2018-05-07T10:26:49Z theemacsshibe[m] makes an AbstractLanguageComparisonJokeFactory
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2018-05-07T10:27:21Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: you mean the myAbstractLanguageComparisonJokeFactory
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2018-05-07T10:27:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: Of course. How could I forget?
2018-05-07T10:28:09Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: why do they use "my" on everything?
2018-05-07T10:28:40Z DemolitionMan: is that a sort of fetishism?
2018-05-07T10:28:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm gonna port that and make a Joke<Comparison<ProgrammingLanguage>> iterator now.
2018-05-07T10:28:50Z LdBeth: Both Java and JS are heavily inspired by lisp
2018-05-07T10:28:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: Cause the default implementation sucks probably.
2018-05-07T10:29:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: That doesn't mean they can't be bad.
2018-05-07T10:29:30Z LdBeth: And Lisp is not that perfect
2018-05-07T10:29:38Z shrdlu68: Blasphemy!
2018-05-07T10:29:44Z DemolitionMan: theemacsshibe[m]: fetishist!
2018-05-07T10:29:56Z LdBeth: GG
2018-05-07T10:30:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: Who's got more brackets now, DemolitionMan?
2018-05-07T10:31:03Z DemolitionMan: as doctor who's archenemies should say: "Do not blaspheme!"
2018-05-07T10:31:27Z DemolitionMan: sorry
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2018-05-07T10:31:32Z LdBeth: We can definitely change brackets into, emm, something like two lambda symbols in CL
2018-05-07T10:31:34Z DemolitionMan: as doctor who's archenemies should say: "Do not swear!"
2018-05-07T10:31:58Z theemacsshibe[m]: A friend made Ñ-expressions.
2018-05-07T10:32:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: ( is &, ) is #
2018-05-07T10:32:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: & and \ come to think of it
2018-05-07T10:32:35Z LdBeth: あ-expressions
2018-05-07T10:32:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: Stupid markdown. & and *
2018-05-07T10:32:50Z theemacsshibe[m]: =ω=expressions
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2018-05-07T10:33:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: The less bad Emojiscript.
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2018-05-07T10:37:53Z flip214: no need for all that. ASCII plus unicode has, what, about 20 kinds of parenthesis pairs? <> () [] {} «» ... enough to differentiate between LET and LAMBDA and PROGN and IF and COND and ...
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2018-05-07T10:52:08Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm gonna write some Rust. Here goes.
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2018-05-07T10:55:04Z edgar-rft: theemacsshibe[m], you could write some rust-converter in CL
2018-05-07T10:56:55Z theemacsshibe[m] sent a long message: theemacsshibe[m]_2018-05-07_10:56:54.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/jAkiWhpfZkDEgOaJTDLugnsw>
2018-05-07T10:57:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: My God, what have I done?
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2018-05-07T10:57:24Z theemacsshibe[m] waits for her payrise
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2018-05-07T10:59:16Z jackdaniel: please skip the offtopic (or move it to ##lisp which is better suited for lisp-in-spirit discussions)
2018-05-07T10:59:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm done with the joke. Sorry.
2018-05-07T10:59:57Z jackdaniel: sure, thanks
2018-05-07T11:00:17Z theemacsshibe[m] walks off the #lisp Bad Joke Night stage and sits back down blushing
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2018-05-07T11:01:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: How do implementations of CL make their hash-tables? Binary trees seem like a simple solution but I'm sure there's more magic in it.
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2018-05-07T11:03:42Z theemacsshibe[m]: I can't see much about IRC operators and stuff on Matrix, so what do you do around here jackdaniel? Just curious.
2018-05-07T11:04:05Z jackdaniel: it varies. I suspect ABCL uses whatever Java provides, SBCL has implementation written in Common Lisp, ECL has implementation written in C
2018-05-07T11:04:13Z jackdaniel: I don't know what Matrix is in this context
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2018-05-07T11:04:47Z jackdaniel: I'm CL programmer and I hang with kindred spirits
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2018-05-07T11:05:39Z jackdaniel: if you wonder whenever I'm channel operator it happens that I am (though I think I've never used the privilige)
2018-05-07T11:05:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh um, matrix is like an overengineered IRC clone
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2018-05-07T11:07:24Z jackdaniel: here is HT implementation used in ECL: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/c/hash.d
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2018-05-07T11:07:46Z jackdaniel: C code
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2018-05-07T11:15:02Z foojin: theemacsshibe[m]: Is there a bot which composes these "sent a long message" things?
2018-05-07T11:15:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: Probably anything more than the IRC limit is changed by the bridge.
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2018-05-07T11:16:02Z theemacsshibe[m]: Does it make some kind of link to the comment? Never been on the receiving end of one.
2018-05-07T11:16:52Z foojin: At least it's not a link to an empty page with a huge wad of minified JS. Even curl just prints out the contents.
2018-05-07T11:17:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: True.
2018-05-07T11:17:53Z foojin: It's visible to everyone on the channel, right above your "My God, what have I done?" message.
2018-05-07T11:18:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: I figured that much.
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2018-05-07T11:18:26Z jackdaniel: khm, still offtopic (sorry for repeating myself :)
2018-05-07T11:18:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm taking any meta discussion to lispcafe before ---- well, that.
2018-05-07T11:19:10Z theemacsshibe[m]: Please, repeat as much as you like. I'll remember some day. :p
2018-05-07T11:19:24Z foojin: theemacsshibe[m]: Ah, so there's a service that converts you messages made through that Matrix thing and posts them here?
2018-05-07T11:19:31Z foojin: *your
2018-05-07T11:20:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: Yes.
2018-05-07T11:20:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: I use it for a lot of channels. I don't want to feel the wrath of jack, so I'd rather talk about matrix some other place.
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2018-05-07T11:22:12Z foojin: Ok, I won't inquire further then. There are usually bots which do things like these, so that was my first guess.
2018-05-07T11:22:49Z pjb: DemolitionMan: design pattern are macros.  Lisp calls them macros.  cf. https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Object-Oriented-Programming
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2018-05-07T11:24:33Z pjb: DemolitionMan: said otherwise, lisp has had design patterns (done correctly) since 1964, while people working with other programming languages had to work 30 years (with teachers, students, "research", PhD, books, editors, and so on, a whole cottage industry, working to archieve… nothing (well, something that was known since 1964, good work guys!)).
2018-05-07T11:25:15Z pjb: DemolitionMan: of course, in our capitalistic system, all this increases the GDP, so everybody is happy.  In the meantime, we're still waitting on our flying "cars", and Moon and Mars bases…
2018-05-07T11:26:07Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: I notice that org-mode has better -to-pdf results (since it goes thru LaTeX, the output is nicer).
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2018-05-07T11:27:01Z schweers: pjb, theemacsshibe[m]: Org Mode can export to all sorts of formats.
2018-05-07T11:27:07Z DemolitionMan: pjb: :)
2018-05-07T11:27:08Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: I like reStructuredText, but when you write it to generate PDF, you have to add a lot of not-nice "tagging".  So I think I'm converting to org-mode.
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2018-05-07T11:29:17Z pjb: theemacsshibe[m]: myThing comes from perl (AFAICS). It's a convention used to denote local variables.
2018-05-07T11:29:41Z p_l: I have seen mThing in Java
2018-05-07T11:29:54Z p_l: for class member private variables
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2018-05-07T11:30:19Z pjb: yes, this comes from C++, where variable members are often prefix with m (or sometimes _).
2018-05-07T11:31:17Z pjb: This is to avoid shadowing the members by parameters foo(int p){ _p=p; } instead of this->p=p;
2018-05-07T11:31:53Z foojin: BTW does learning design patterns give one a sort of "architectural insight" into software design?
2018-05-07T11:31:54Z flip214: schweers: pjb: pandoc can convert RST <=> org <=> Markdown etc., good enough for most uses.
2018-05-07T11:32:02Z schweers: is there a proper (i.e. academic) term for this kind of scoping?
2018-05-07T11:32:11Z foojin: I often find myself unable to come up with ways everything should fit together, even though I'm quite capable of writing and refactoring functions. Maybe that's one of the reasons I'm still stuck with fixing someone else's code.
2018-05-07T11:32:37Z flip214: foojin: did you ever solve some middle-sized problem from start to end?
2018-05-07T11:32:48Z flip214: perhaps you're just lacking overview?
2018-05-07T11:32:55Z dim: pjb: yeah, thanks to pandoc I'm using Markdown for my PDF needs nowadays
2018-05-07T11:33:24Z pjb: foojin: yes, reading the GoF book is not a bad idea.  But as lisper, take it as a good exercise to write the macros corresponding to each design pattern.
2018-05-07T11:33:38Z schweers: to clarify, I mean the sort of scoping that OO languages often introduce by introducing member variables into the scope of methods.  Now that I’ve written this, I realize that this is nothing more than lexical scope.  So ignore my question ;)
2018-05-07T11:33:43Z pjb: dim: also, my point here is that org-mode doesn't need any external too :-)
2018-05-07T11:35:12Z pjb: schweers: well this is a good question. In CL it's solved with with-slots and with-accessors.  It doesn't need to be automatic.  So it probably has a name.
2018-05-07T11:36:18Z schweers: well it is basically lexical scope, but then again, OO languages often have ways to clarify which foo is meant.  If `foo' is a member variable, then foo may refer to something different than this.foo.  or this.that.something_other.foo
2018-05-07T11:36:32Z foojin: schweers: IMO in languages like Python, where you can just add members at runtime and have them visible, lexical scoping doesn't really cut it. I think it just uses a dict there.
2018-05-07T11:36:59Z schweers: python uses a dict, but that is supposedly(?) subject to change.
2018-05-07T11:38:24Z p_l: does python actually have a proper lexical scope?
2018-05-07T11:38:30Z foojin: flip214: I tried to do that several times but it always ends up with me finding the result too ugly to improve. Lisp macros seem like a nice solution to my problems, so I'll definitely try to write something with it.
2018-05-07T11:38:43Z schweers: p_l: as far as I know, it does, but didn’t always have it
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2018-05-07T11:39:05Z p_l always got the feel that for supposedly hating monkey patching, python is most full of it
2018-05-07T11:39:13Z foojin: schweers: The point is, it's neither lexical, nor dynamical.
2018-05-07T11:39:18Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-05-07T11:39:46Z foojin: *dynamic
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: ↻foo↺ ⇽foo⇾ ⎏foo⎐ ⟃foo⟄ ⦦foo⦧ ⦨foo⦩ ⫍foo⫎ there are a lot of left/right pairs in unicode:
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: "()[]{}«»ʿʾ˂˃˓˒˱˲̘̙̜̹͔͕͑͗܆܇᷾͐‘’“”‹›⁅⁆⁌⁍⁽⁾₍₎⃭⃬⃮⃯⃐⃑⃖⃗←→↚↛↜↝↞↠↢↣↤↦↩↪↫↬↰↱↲↳↼⇀↽⇁↿↾⇃⇂⇇⇉⇍⇏⇐⇒⇚⇛⇜⇝⇠⇢⇤⇥⇦⇨⇷⇸⇺⇻⇽⇾⊣⊢⋉⋊⋋⋌⌈⌉⌊⌋⌍⌌⌏⌎⌜⌝⌞⌟〈〉⌫⌦⍅⍆⍇⍈⎛⎞⎜⎟⎝⎠⎡⎤⎢⎥⎣⎦⎧⎫⎨⎬⎩⎭⎸⎹⏋⎾⏌⎿┐┌┑┍┒â
2018-05-07T11:40:06Z pjb: ⿸⿹〈〉《》「」『』【】〔〕〖〗〘〙〚〛㊧㊨﴾﴿︠︡︢︣︤︥︵︶︷︸︹︺︻︼︽︾︿﹀﹁﹂﹃﹄﹇﹈﹙﹚﹛﹜﹝﹞（）［］｛｝｟｠｢｣￩￫"
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2018-05-07T11:41:43Z pjb: It's CL-relevant ;-)  in clisp: (coerce (mapcan (lambda (ch) (let* ((name (char-name ch))(pos  (search "LEFT" name)) (right (concatenate 'string (subseq name 0 pos) "RIGHT" (subseq name (+ pos 4))))) (when (name-char right) (list ch (name-char right))))) (lschar :name "LEFT")) 'string)
2018-05-07T11:42:26Z pjb: It's funny how some fonts don't have symetrical glyphs. eg.: ⬱⇶
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2018-05-07T11:44:12Z edgar-rft wishes pjb back into the time of cuniform writing
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2018-05-07T11:51:22Z flip214: pjb: +1  ;)
2018-05-07T11:51:40Z flip214: thanks for the proof.
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2018-05-07T11:52:18Z flip214: and now, please do the same with UP and DOWN, so that multi-line forms like "(PROGN" and ")" can be properly framed ;)
2018-05-07T11:53:32Z pjb: flip214: notice already that there are the vertical left/right. I used them once in C programs (with compose in emacs, to substitute for {}).  ︠︡︢︣︤︥︵︶︷︸︹︺︻︼︽︾︿﹀﹁﹂﹃﹄﹇﹈
2018-05-07T11:54:01Z pjb: I mean, since a lot of C style put a single bracket on a line, using ︷ and ︸ made sense…
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2018-05-07T11:56:48Z flip214: don't you long for ⌌PROGN   (foo)⌟
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2018-05-07T11:57:43Z flip214: Or even ⏠PROGN (foo)⏡    (top|bottom TORTOISE SHELL BRACKET)
2018-05-07T11:59:06Z foojin: Given the complexity of Unicode, there should be special tools that check the source code for things like "invisible" characters.
2018-05-07T11:59:09Z foojin: It's only a matter of time before someone gets a nasty surprise past a code review.
2018-05-07T12:01:58Z pjb: foojin: you can have fun right away: https://www.voltage.com/technology/a-clever-use-for-u202e/
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2018-05-07T12:02:36Z pjb: and https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/04/faking_domain_n.html
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2018-05-07T12:05:03Z pjb: for example: https://pastebin.com/jJujcnFP
2018-05-07T12:05:43Z pjb: (eq 'innоcuous 'innocuous) --> nil
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2018-05-07T12:06:44Z foojin: pjb: People at least have bookmarks to defend against this. Someone who applies a patch sent to him doesn't.
2018-05-07T12:06:50Z foojin: Add an innocent unicode character in a comment and you even have a "reason" for using Unicode.
2018-05-07T12:07:17Z foojin: *innocent-looking
2018-05-07T12:07:41Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (s) (map 'list 'char-name (symbol-name s)))  '(innоcuous innocuous)) --> #|in clisp|# (("LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_I" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_C" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_S") ("LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_I" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_N" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O"
2018-05-07T12:07:41Z pjb: "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_C" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_U" "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_S"))
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2018-05-07T12:09:12Z pjb: foojin: this is something you could write as a small extension to emacs.  Scan buffers for homographs.
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2018-05-07T12:12:39Z foojin: pjb: And try to convince people to use Unicode only in comments.
2018-05-07T12:13:16Z pjb: Not necessarily. The source can be written by russians in cyrillic, or japaneses, or chineses.
2018-05-07T12:13:29Z pjb: You just want to check for consistency.
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2018-05-07T12:17:05Z pjb: Perhaps innоcuous can be forbidden, but write-борщ should be ok.
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2018-05-07T12:24:59Z foojin: I still think that it has no place outside comments and string literals. It's only a small step from an agreed-upon programming language to an agreed-upon naming convention.
2018-05-07T12:25:14Z foojin: It boils down to "make it right" vs "make it work" in my opinion.
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2018-05-07T12:29:57Z schweers: I wonder whether russian and/or asian programmers use non-english names in programming.
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2018-05-07T12:33:47Z foojin: schweers: Of course. I tried to port an emulator written by someone like that from JS to C and found out that only clang is capable of compiling it.
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2018-05-07T12:34:09Z schweers: because of unicode names?
2018-05-07T12:34:41Z schweers: does C allow non-ascii characters outside of comments or string literals?
2018-05-07T12:34:54Z foojin: Yep. I still haven't really touched most of his code, save for operator substitutions, so it would take a while to make it build under GCC.
2018-05-07T12:35:11Z schweers: sounds fun
2018-05-07T12:35:51Z foojin: It taught me to compile with different compilers just to see the warnings produced though.
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2018-05-07T13:08:54Z pjb: schweers: even latin-based natural language writers may have difficulties mixing their language with english-based programming languages.
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2018-05-07T13:09:30Z schweers: which is why all my code has english identifiers
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2018-05-07T13:09:37Z pjb: schweers: as a French, I prefer in general using only English in my programs, to keep the consistency with the English keywords and the user identifiers.
2018-05-07T13:10:04Z schweers: same here, but german
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2018-05-07T13:10:09Z pjb: However, there are circumstances, where it would be preferable to use native language identifiers.
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2018-05-07T13:11:41Z schweers: although it can be problematic when people don’t know english well enough to give proper identifiers.  I saw a variable once, which was supposed to hold a current value (of a measurement) which was named actual_something.  In german the word „aktuell“ means „current“.
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2018-05-07T13:11:54Z schweers: so you’ve got yourself a false friend there
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2018-05-07T13:12:50Z pjb: schweers: yes, like "delicious" :-)
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2018-05-07T13:13:05Z schweers: how so?
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2018-05-07T13:13:40Z pjb: Macron said to the Austrian prime minister that his wife was delicious.  But that doesn't mean exactly the same in French and in English :-)
2018-05-07T13:13:51Z beach: Heh!
2018-05-07T13:13:54Z schweers: oops
2018-05-07T13:14:01Z schweers: what might he have intended?
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2018-05-07T13:14:24Z schweers doesn’t speak french beyond very few words.
2018-05-07T13:14:55Z pjb: https://static.ripostelaique.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/macron-le-putois.png
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2018-05-07T13:16:42Z pjb: literally, it means good, tasty.  But une "femme délicieuse" means a "delightful wife", while a "delicious wife" is more lewd.
2018-05-07T13:16:56Z schweers: ah, okay
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2018-05-07T13:17:26Z schweers: yeah, I got why it’s inappropriate to call his wife delicious.  just didn’t know what it would have meant in french
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2018-05-07T13:17:32Z schweers: thanks for sharing
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2018-05-07T13:18:56Z pjb: It wouldn't be bad, it could be excused, if it wasn't for the personality of Macron, the banksters' puppet.
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2018-05-07T13:20:11Z beach: Politicians should avoid speaking any language other than their native one.
2018-05-07T13:20:19Z beach: They sound terrible and they get it wrong.
2018-05-07T13:20:45Z schweers: they often shouldn’t even use their native language :-P
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2018-05-07T13:21:46Z phoe: beach: you just destroyed international politics. (#lispcafe)
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2018-05-07T13:22:04Z beach: Yes, off topic.  Sorry.
2018-05-07T13:25:13Z mejja: many youngsters prefer a tasty MILF..
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2018-05-07T13:49:25Z Ukari: is it possiable to get stacktrace with line information?
2018-05-07T13:50:30Z beach: Depends on your implementation.  Line information is not so great, you want position of the start and end of the expression being evaluated.
2018-05-07T13:50:50Z beach: Ukari: SLIME helps out by letting you type `v' on a stack frame.
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2018-05-07T14:01:09Z schweers: does anyone know why SLIME  sometimes indents a macro use correctly and sometimes does not?
2018-05-07T14:01:25Z beach: Example?
2018-05-07T14:01:41Z schweers: I defined a macro and used it at one point, indentation worked (oddly enough it did before I defined the macro).  Now it does not.
2018-05-07T14:01:50Z schweers: sec, pastebin
2018-05-07T14:02:12Z beach: Sounds like a package problem.
2018-05-07T14:02:18Z beach: Two different packages.
2018-05-07T14:02:37Z shka: or you are redefining macro as function
2018-05-07T14:02:42Z schweers: well, I have them in two packages, but I use the macro as (packagename::macroname arg1 body)
2018-05-07T14:02:56Z beach: is macroname exported?
2018-05-07T14:02:59Z schweers: this is my macro: https://pastebin.com/gKJY3rBv
2018-05-07T14:03:05Z schweers: no, which is why I use ::
2018-05-07T14:03:16Z beach: Oh, sorry, missed it.
2018-05-07T14:03:20Z schweers: np
2018-05-07T14:03:31Z schweers: nothing fancy, and it worked at first
2018-05-07T14:03:42Z schweers: oh, wait a second
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2018-05-07T14:04:07Z schweers: hm, I’m wondering if lispy is doing something weird
2018-05-07T14:04:18Z schweers: nope, not lispy
2018-05-07T14:05:49Z schweers: https://pastebin.com/Nq9CHQrC
2018-05-07T14:09:15Z schweers: weird.  I restarted the lisp image, same problem.  moved it to the same package and now it’s fine.
2018-05-07T14:09:33Z schweers: Which is okay in this case, as it actually belongs in the package where it is used, but still ...
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2018-05-07T14:10:11Z schweers: even works before the code is loaded, which I find weird
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2018-05-07T14:11:50Z jdz: schweers: before the code is loaded I bet indentation is based on the name (starts with "with-").
2018-05-07T14:12:15Z schweers: oh right, thanks
2018-05-07T14:12:24Z schweers: but still, why would it suddenly behave that way?
2018-05-07T14:12:50Z schweers: anyway, I was thinking it may be well known.  I guess it’s a little tricky to debug it now.
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2018-05-07T14:39:23Z Ukari: it is a good idea to use (make-symbol "name") instead of (gensym) in defmacro for a better debug experience?
2018-05-07T14:40:11Z Bike: i find it a bit confusing in the case of e.g. nested macroexpansions, where they'll have distinct symbols that look the same
2018-05-07T14:40:20Z Bike: i just pass gensym a string instead (you can do that btw)
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2018-05-07T14:42:29Z phoe: Ukari: (gensym "SOMETHING")
2018-05-07T14:42:40Z phoe: ;=> #:SOMETHING827
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2018-05-07T14:43:16Z Ukari: would it have a affect on efficiency?
2018-05-07T14:43:22Z Bike: no.
2018-05-07T14:43:33Z Ukari: like more memory used for store string
2018-05-07T14:43:37Z Bike: nope
2018-05-07T14:43:42Z Ukari: nice
2018-05-07T14:43:51Z Bike: the compiler is going to use way more memory than your puny little macro anyway
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2018-05-07T14:45:34Z shka: Ukari: with-gensyms my friend!
2018-05-07T14:47:00Z beach: I once had a student who used only one-letter variables, thinking it would take up too much memory otherwise.
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2018-05-07T14:48:46Z phoe: I once read about a Russian who defined a C macro `#define RETURN(x) return x; }` - including the closing brace, thinking all the closing brackets would take up too much hard disk space otherwise.
2018-05-07T14:49:09Z phoe: So his functions looked like `int foo() { RETURN(42)`
2018-05-07T14:49:25Z Bike: expensive ram is a hell of a drug
2018-05-07T14:49:51Z beach: phoe: Holy smoke!
2018-05-07T14:50:36Z phoe: Found it, https://stackoverflow.com/a/652945
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2018-05-07T14:50:41Z Bike: i wonder how much memory that would actually save
2018-05-07T14:50:48Z schweers: When I started programming (in C/C++), I used the built-in smaller integer types whenever I felt they would be enough.  So my code was riddled with 8 and 16 bit ints.  On the stack, no less!
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2018-05-07T14:50:54Z Bike: if you had a thousand functions, i guess like 2 KB
2018-05-07T14:50:59Z schweers: Err, I meant, a friend of mine did this ;)
2018-05-07T14:51:31Z Bike: the pushups thing might not be bad tho
2018-05-07T14:51:56Z phoe: Bike: I need to start doing this whenever I end up in the debugger.
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2018-05-07T14:53:55Z syncriix: Hey guys, am I alowed to ask for a small favor here?
2018-05-07T14:54:06Z phoe: syncriix: ask away
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2018-05-07T14:54:29Z phoe: the worst kind of answer you can get for asking is "no", no matter the question
2018-05-07T14:54:53Z syncriix: I have a lot of tasks to sort in emacs, like a few thousand... and I want to sort them by TODO state, Priority and alphabetic order
2018-05-07T14:55:06Z syncriix: I have found a working script on stackexchange
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2018-05-07T14:55:32Z phoe: syncriix: #emacs might be able to help you better if you're doing org-mode
2018-05-07T14:55:47Z schweers: isn’t there even a dedicated org mode channel?
2018-05-07T14:55:50Z phoe: elisp /= Common Lisp, and this topic is about the latter
2018-05-07T14:55:52Z phoe: schweers: I am not sure
2018-05-07T14:55:56Z beach: syncriix: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-05-07T14:56:01Z schweers: neither am I
2018-05-07T14:56:02Z phoe: oooh, #org-mode
2018-05-07T14:56:03Z phoe: TIL
2018-05-07T14:56:12Z syncriix: Aww, there goes my programming knowledge!
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2018-05-07T14:56:26Z phoe: syncriix: #org-mode is something I just found that should be able to help you
2018-05-07T14:56:27Z syncriix: I will hop over to the org channel then, thankyou guys!
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2018-05-07T15:32:12Z jeosol: bigos?
2018-05-07T15:32:20Z jeosol: morning guys
2018-05-07T15:32:52Z beach: Hello jeosol.
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2018-05-07T15:33:17Z jeosol: beach, I am doing ok. Finally was able to submit my challenge abstract, waiting for reply.
2018-05-07T15:33:30Z beach: Great.
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2018-05-07T15:33:46Z jeosol: you guys were great help in resolving a bunch of issues, code runs steady, clean, with a lot less problems.
2018-05-07T15:35:14Z jeosol: This question is probably for the web channel if there is one. I am trying to now add a front end interface. I delved into angular 4 last few days and I almost lost my mind with the unnecessary complexity. I would prefer to stay in lisp
2018-05-07T15:35:46Z jeosol: Anyone here using Shinmera's radiance
2018-05-07T15:37:37Z phoe: jeosol: I bet #shirakumo has some users
2018-05-07T15:37:47Z phoe: perhaps also Shinmera himself
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2018-05-07T15:40:54Z jeosol: phoe: thanks
2018-05-07T15:41:12Z jeosol: I will head there.
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2018-05-07T16:38:14Z Ukari: `(funcall (lambda () (or (values-list (list)) "hi")))` and `(funcall (lambda () (values-list (or (list) (list "hi")))))`
2018-05-07T16:38:37Z Ukari: is there something or that could return multiple values
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2018-05-07T16:39:21Z Ukari: or only get the first value
2018-05-07T16:40:55Z beach: I have no idea what that code is supposed to do.
2018-05-07T16:41:10Z beach: (LIST) evaluates to NIL.
2018-05-07T16:41:28Z beach: (values-list NIL) returns no values.
2018-05-07T16:41:30Z phoe: Ukari: (values 1 2 3)
2018-05-07T16:41:54Z beach: But since it is in a position of evaluation, it is the same as NIL.
2018-05-07T16:42:04Z beach: Now, (OR NIL ...) is the same as ...
2018-05-07T16:42:34Z beach: So (or (values-list (list)) "hi") is the same as "hi".
2018-05-07T16:43:03Z beach: So you have (funcall (lambda () "hi")) which returns "hi".
2018-05-07T16:43:18Z Ukari: i ask this because the condition that (funcall (lambda () (values))) returns no value while (funcall (lambda () )) returns a NIL
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2018-05-07T16:44:24Z beach: So you just want an example of something similar that would return more than one value?
2018-05-07T16:44:26Z beach: Is that it?
2018-05-07T16:44:32Z Ukari: so i want to  make  (funcall (lambda () (values))) also returns a "NIL" when I defstruct a NIL-struct instead of NIL
2018-05-07T16:44:58Z Bike: defstruct...?
2018-05-07T16:45:00Z beach: I think it is too late in the day for me to even understands what that means.
2018-05-07T16:45:15Z Bike: it's too middle of the day to understand what it means
2018-05-07T16:45:16Z beach goes to have dinner instead of trying to understand.
2018-05-07T16:45:21Z beach: heh.
2018-05-07T16:49:06Z phoe: Ukari: you're speaking nonsense
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2018-05-07T16:56:40Z Ukari: https://gist.github.com/ukari/6c3f012309d99bdd1e3c622dbd40f6f2
2018-05-07T16:57:49Z Ukari: just simply use values could not handle this condition
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2018-05-07T17:00:03Z Bike: what are you actually trying to accomplish here
2018-05-07T17:00:05Z Bike: this is a mess
2018-05-07T17:00:27Z Bike: what results do you expect? what do you get? something
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2018-05-07T17:01:07Z Ukari: the result of (test-wanna-1) is what i want to get
2018-05-07T17:01:58Z Ukari: test-bug-1 don't return a nil-ship, it returns no value
2018-05-07T17:02:58Z foojin: Ukari: So you want a list with a single ship when an empty one is returned?
2018-05-07T17:03:07Z Ukari: yes!
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2018-05-07T17:05:18Z foojin: Ukari: Do you have a special ship just for this? With nothing to map over, there's no way to create something sensible for a more complex definition of nil-ship.
2018-05-07T17:06:10Z foojin: Ukari: You just happen to have something which always turns out the same when constructed.
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2018-05-07T17:12:47Z foojin: Ukari: So I recommend describing the actual problem instead of oversimplifying to the point of the resulting example becoming useless even under its own constraints.
2018-05-07T17:13:56Z Ukari: it is my fault, i don't like the code style in test-wanna-1 due to it need to do one more step to make a single element list. so i use (or (values may-nil) single) instead and find that it don't return multiple values anymore in this code style
2018-05-07T17:14:30Z Ukari: and i want to find sth like `or` but which could returns multiple values
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2018-05-07T17:18:03Z foojin: brb
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2018-05-07T17:32:06Z shka_: yo  guys
2018-05-07T17:32:19Z shka_: is there some neat little package to handle lambda lists?
2018-05-07T17:33:02Z Bike: "handle"?
2018-05-07T17:33:31Z shka_: i want function that will, after accepting full lambda list return me list of optional arguments, key arguments, aux arguments…
2018-05-07T17:33:32Z foojin: Ukari: First of all, why do you even bother with returning values if you end up collecting them in a list anyways?
2018-05-07T17:33:34Z shka_: basic stuff
2018-05-07T17:34:11Z PuercoPop: shka_: there is parse-lambda-list in alexandria
2018-05-07T17:34:25Z shka_: oooh, cool, let me check it
2018-05-07T17:34:50Z PuercoPop: Bike also has a library IIRC but I've never used it
2018-05-07T17:35:10Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.lambda-list
2018-05-07T17:35:10Z shka_: Bike: care to comment on that, sir?
2018-05-07T17:35:21Z Bike: don't bother with mine
2018-05-07T17:35:34Z shka_: ok
2018-05-07T17:35:55Z Ukari: i am trying to make a generator which needs to transform "return values" in generator function to "iterator objects", something like `function* a() {return 1}; a().next()` in javascript
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2018-05-07T17:39:09Z shka_: Ukari: i did something like generators, simply made syntax like clojure loop, but i save arguments in closure on recur and instead simply jumping to begin i return value
2018-05-07T17:39:29Z shka_: then next funcall have previously saved arguments
2018-05-07T17:40:08Z shka_: after a lot of tinkering this seemed like the most elegant approach
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2018-05-07T17:44:28Z shka_: PuercoPop: alexandria did the trick, thanks!
2018-05-07T17:46:30Z Ukari: shka_, (setf gen (lambda () (funcall (lambda (store) (lambda () (incf store))) -1))) (setf next (funcall gen)) (funcall next) ?
2018-05-07T17:46:43Z Ukari: is that your way
2018-05-07T17:47:28Z shka_: in spirit, yes
2018-05-07T17:48:17Z shka_: first function establishes lexical binding for inner function, inner modifies bindings and returns value
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2018-05-07T17:50:14Z shka_: i have this enclosed in object so i have richer interface, but core idea is the same
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2018-05-07T17:50:38Z shka_: anyway, in use: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/df228a268e7ab3478cbf59b71ecdaead0e3edbe1/src/api/expression-tests.lisp#L34
2018-05-07T17:50:46Z foojin: Ukari: That doesn't look like what you can write in JS and Python (this probably can be done with macros), but if you don't care about keeping the style, it would do just fine.
2018-05-07T17:51:16Z shka_: cl-ds:xpr is such generator
2018-05-07T17:51:33Z shka_: it will walk over tree bound to data
2018-05-07T17:52:06Z shka_: stack is just stack, obviously
2018-05-07T17:52:38Z shka_: recur and send-recur are essentially keywords made to resembled recursive calls
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2018-05-07T17:53:30Z shka_: traverse will work like (map nil ...), to take just one value you can use cl-ds:consume-front
2018-05-07T17:53:59Z shka_: it is not perfect, obviously, but it works for me
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2018-05-07T17:57:21Z shka_: Ukari: any additional questions?
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2018-05-07T17:58:29Z Ukari: no
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2018-05-07T17:58:39Z shka_: ok, cool
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2018-05-07T18:48:15Z flip214: whoever had the idea for this symbol: hooray.
2018-05-07T18:48:18Z flip214: > asdf/backward-interface::*deprecated-function-style-warning-enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility-notified-p*
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2018-05-07T18:48:57Z shka_: :D
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2018-05-07T18:51:05Z edgar-rft: everybody-should-use-super-long-symbol-names-to-make-us-typing-even-more-letters
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2018-05-07T18:57:29Z dlowe: it's to punish those without the virtuousness of tab completion
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2018-05-07T19:01:19Z defunkydrummer: flip214: i prefer verbose names; and BTW deprecated-function-style-warning-enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility-notified-p is still short for Java standards, comparatively
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2018-05-07T19:02:09Z defunkydrummer: flip214: still much better than Java's InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState
2018-05-07T19:02:21Z defunkydrummer: flip214: For real. Take a look at:  https://github.com/zxlooong/jdk16045/blob/master/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState.java
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2018-05-07T19:07:47Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: an example near to this layout on McCLIM? https://i1.wp.com/qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/images/mainwindowlayout.png
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2018-05-07T19:10:46Z jackdaniel: sunshavi: use tabling in your layout
2018-05-07T19:10:52Z jackdaniel: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1619
2018-05-07T19:12:08Z jackdaniel: or, if you feel fancy, you may experiment with bbpane (black board pane) which is a "floating" layout (as in opposed to "tiling")
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2018-05-07T19:22:28Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: i am going to check
2018-05-07T19:22:55Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: wanna see the same layout on commonQt. I have found and example on the network?
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2018-05-07T19:29:25Z jackdaniel: sorry, I don't understand
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2018-05-07T19:34:45Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: see this if u have time (if commonQt installed): https://transfer.sh/dE0xc/holanombre.lisp
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2018-05-07T19:40:38Z jackdaniel: if commonQt works for you and McCLIM doesn't – go for it. I don't think there is much merit in picking wrong tools just for a sake of being lispy
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2018-05-07T19:44:29Z sunshavi: jackdaniel: actually I am trying to check both (commonQt, and McCLIM). commonQt seems quite fine for this kind of layout. I just want to invest a couple of hours and see if I could come with something similar to that with McCLIM.
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2018-05-07T20:20:53Z loginoob: What's the difference between (length (NIL)) and (length (cons NIL NIL))
2018-05-07T20:21:21Z loginoob: why the first gives error and second returns 1
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2018-05-07T20:24:16Z Josh_2: (nil) that's a function call
2018-05-07T20:24:18Z Bike: (nil) is a function call. it will try to call the function called nil.
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2018-05-07T20:24:46Z Bike: this is why you get an error that says something like "NIL is an undefined function"
2018-05-07T20:24:46Z Josh_2: (length '(nil)) is the same as (length (cons nil nil))
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2018-05-07T20:25:48Z loginoob: but NIL is also empty list and predefined in language
2018-05-07T20:26:24Z Bike: yes, and thus, not a function.
2018-05-07T20:26:26Z Bike: so you can't call it.
2018-05-07T20:26:59Z Bike: (cons nil nil) is a call to the function called CONS. (nil) is a call to the function called NIL. simple, yes?
2018-05-07T20:28:15Z loginoob: so length takes function as an argument
2018-05-07T20:29:38Z Bike: no!
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2018-05-07T20:29:49Z Bike: it takes a list as an argument.
2018-05-07T20:30:15Z Bike: (cons nil nil) calls the cons function. the cons function returns a list. that list is then passed to the length function.
2018-05-07T20:30:46Z Josh_2: Takes a sequence as an argument
2018-05-07T20:31:44Z loginoob: ok understood
2018-05-07T20:33:12Z loginoob: so anything inside a list like here (Something) will be considered a function call when not in quotes
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2018-05-07T20:35:04Z Bike: or another operation, if something is a macro or special operator. but that is the basic syntax, yes.
2018-05-07T20:35:34Z loginoob: ok, thank you.
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2018-05-07T20:42:23Z Xof: hi
2018-05-07T20:42:28Z Xof: not for very long, mind
2018-05-07T20:43:07Z dim: cool, then, hi
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2018-05-07T23:01:06Z cantor: I am getting really tired of all the downsides of Clojure, should I switch to Common Lisp? I am concerned about the enormity of the language and the situation around the build/packaging ecosystem
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2018-05-07T23:03:23Z cantor: I dismissed racket because of the GIL
2018-05-07T23:03:43Z cantor: Scheme and ilk cause of lack of traction/mature ecosystem
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2018-05-07T23:23:09Z sukaeto: cantor: you're in a channel about Common Lisp, so I imagine you'll get a very biased answer here
2018-05-07T23:23:29Z cantor: sukaeto: That's what I am hoping for :)
2018-05-07T23:23:42Z sukaeto: OK, then yes - you should switch to Common Lisp
2018-05-07T23:23:54Z cantor: i.e. people here use common lisp a lot, I want to see what they think of my concerns
2018-05-07T23:24:15Z cantor: sukaeto: reductive, doesn't address concerns elaborated post the question
2018-05-07T23:25:32Z sukaeto: a lot of us use Common Lisp professionally and are pretty happy with it, and neither the size of the language nor the tooling were deterrents for that
2018-05-07T23:25:56Z sukaeto: quicklisp makes packaging up an image pretty easy in most cases
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2018-05-07T23:26:22Z sukaeto: and as far as "language size", I've never understood what the concerns were there.
2018-05-07T23:26:57Z cantor: the C++ syndrome
2018-05-07T23:27:09Z cantor: where each programmer uses a weird subset of the language
2018-05-07T23:27:35Z cantor: Also, what companies use Common Lisp professionally? Is there a list compiled somewhere?
2018-05-07T23:28:38Z rme: RavenPack and Rigetti are currently looking for Common Lisp talent, to name two.
2018-05-07T23:29:16Z rme: But there are many more organizations looking for Clojure, I have to admit.
2018-05-07T23:30:28Z cantor: rme: I knew of Rigetti, but last time I looked they had that "internship-like" program and the regular job descriptions were out of my league
2018-05-07T23:30:34Z cantor: checking out RavenPack
2018-05-07T23:31:36Z cantor: rme: bummer, they need EU residency
2018-05-07T23:32:25Z cantor: found this https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2018-05-08T00:40:53Z ealfonso: I can't use (setf (slot-value obj sym) value), which complains that the first setf argument is not a symbol. is there a good way to get the accessor for a given slot?
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2018-05-08T00:42:20Z ealfonso: I guess I could generate the accessor's name. but not sure that is the best approach
2018-05-08T00:42:38Z Bike: what? no, that should be fine
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2018-05-08T00:43:52Z Bike: (setf (slot-value object slotname) value), that is
2018-05-08T00:44:40Z ealfonso: Bike you're right. I must have another problem with my macro
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2018-05-08T00:48:41Z ealfonso: I forgot to quote the symbol name in the 2nd arg to slot-value
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2018-05-08T01:24:40Z ealfonso: i have this ugly to-camel-case function that doesn't work because of overlapping ppcre matches: https://pastebin.com/0mjqfqDi any suggestions or should I just not use ppcre for this?
2018-05-08T01:26:04Z Bike: overlapping how?
2018-05-08T01:26:47Z Bike: you don't have kleene stars or nothing
2018-05-08T01:28:18Z Josh_2: Instead of replacing all of them all at once, couldn't you extract each match and remove the duplicates (if I'm understanding correct)
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2018-05-08T01:31:28Z ealfonso: Bike "nextPageToken" => "next-pageToken"
2018-05-08T01:32:01Z Bike: um, am i being extremely dumb? i thought this converted in the other direction.
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2018-05-08T01:32:24Z Josh_2: I thought the same
2018-05-08T01:32:37Z Josh_2: It's lack of a doc string ;)
2018-05-08T01:32:45Z Bike: that's not an overlap though. just means you need to do regex-replace-all
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2018-05-08T01:33:35Z ealfonso: sorry, "next-page-token" => "nextPage-token"
2018-05-08T01:33:47Z Bike: see previous message
2018-05-08T01:35:45Z ealfonso: Bike that's right. thanks
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2018-05-08T02:20:09Z Josh_2: THink am gonna go to the shop
2018-05-08T02:20:18Z Josh_2: am not tired at all but it's 3:20am :O'
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2018-05-08T04:50:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-08T06:52:05Z splittist: Good morning beach!
2018-05-08T06:54:45Z beach: Long time no see.  What's up?
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2018-05-08T07:34:46Z splittist: beach: the usual - overworked, underappreciated (:
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2018-05-08T08:31:15Z shka: did anybody made something like slime inspector, but in clim?
2018-05-08T08:31:28Z shka: so it is sligthly nicer to use
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2018-05-08T08:33:26Z beach: shka: Yes, there is Clouseau.
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2018-05-08T08:34:41Z shka: beach: heh, now i don't know if you are kidding or you are serious
2018-05-08T08:34:57Z shka: because Clouseau seems like legit name
2018-05-08T08:35:08Z beach: I am not joking.
2018-05-08T08:35:22Z beach: moore33 came up with the name, as I recall.
2018-05-08T08:35:37Z shka: fenomenal name
2018-05-08T08:35:48Z shka: puts smile on my face
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2018-05-08T08:38:47Z ldb: holly, so i can use a graphic inspector
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2018-05-08T08:39:04Z beach: Yes.
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2018-05-08T08:41:02Z shka: well, time to check how it works
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2018-05-08T08:43:57Z shka: heh, i forgot that i am connected to a remote machine via ssh tunnel
2018-05-08T08:48:29Z ldb: emmm, doesn't work that satisfiying
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2018-05-08T12:00:54Z trocado: Hi! Why calling elt on a list (vs nth) gives array-like performance?
2018-05-08T12:01:00Z trocado: Check this out: https://pastebin.com/TNvsW9L5
2018-05-08T12:04:11Z beach: trocado: Since you are not using the value of a call to a pure function, SBCL likely removes the call altogether.
2018-05-08T12:04:33Z beach: trocado: Benchmarks are hard to construct.
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2018-05-08T12:07:52Z shka: heh, don't call on those 148.006 cycles ;-)
2018-05-08T12:08:13Z shka: sometimes it is useful to even dissasemble
2018-05-08T12:08:34Z trocado: beach: I guess that's it! I changed "do" to "sum" in the loop and now the results are as expected.
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2018-05-08T12:16:59Z scymtym: beach: this looks like a bug in SBCL to me since ELT is supposed to signal an error for invalid indices
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2018-05-08T12:17:47Z beach: That's possible.
2018-05-08T12:17:58Z beach: I didn't look very carefully.
2018-05-08T12:20:00Z scymtym: (and reading a special variable in the inner loop of a microbenchmark can easily ruin the benchmark)
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2018-05-08T12:31:11Z Xof: "should signal an error" mandates an error only in safety 3 code
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2018-05-08T15:00:10Z shka: hey folks
2018-05-08T15:00:24Z shka: i'm looking for real examples of series package usage
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2018-05-08T15:10:33Z oleo: https://github.com/tokenrove/series/blob/master/s-doc.txt
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2018-05-08T21:18:08Z papachan: this is nice: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/commit/466284f3ab2b3a76141e83641df9487843b04d9e
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2018-05-09T04:26:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-09T05:52:29Z beach: Hmm, I wonder whether I stumbled upon something really good by having a two-word header for every general instance in SICL, thereby making it possible to have a fairly simple, concurrent garbage collector for the global heap.
2018-05-09T05:55:16Z beach: Garbage collection is a strange domain, though.  Only real code and real benchmarks can determine whether it is a good idea.
2018-05-09T05:55:51Z White_Flame: is the goal of SICL to be a functional reference implementation, or to have good performance as well?
2018-05-09T05:56:22Z beach: Performance is definitely an important goal.
2018-05-09T05:57:11Z White_Flame: well, I would suggest since you know it intimately, to go wild with GC ideas.  It's harder to explore on more mature platforms
2018-05-09T05:57:24Z pillton: beach: What do you mean by "general instance"?
2018-05-09T05:57:24Z White_Flame: and as you mention, GC is something that needs banging at
2018-05-09T05:57:46Z beach: pillton: A heap-allocate object that is not a CONS cell.
2018-05-09T05:57:47Z White_Flame: i would love to see good concurrent collector ideas
2018-05-09T05:58:30Z beach: White_Flame: Yeah, I agree with you.  So I need to finish the x86-64 backend.
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2018-05-09T06:46:39Z flip214: I'm wondering whether it might be worth the effort to have 1 or 2 per-thread generations, and then some extension like (sicl-ext:in-generation 4 (make-instance ...)) to specify long-lived allocations
2018-05-09T06:46:51Z flip214: but I guess that was already done at some point
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2018-05-09T06:57:58Z pillton: Isn't having a concurrent collector AND threads two separate decisions?
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2018-05-09T07:31:28Z beach: flip214: My bet is that it's not going to be worth the effort.
2018-05-09T07:31:45Z beach: Already, my per-thread GC is more precise than a traditional copying collector.
2018-05-09T07:32:38Z beach: flip214: In fact, you can consider it to have a very large number of generations, because the allocation order is preserved, so that objects are always sorted in order of age.
2018-05-09T07:33:18Z beach: I need to run some errands, but I'll be back later to read any remarks.
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2018-05-09T07:59:56Z beach: Hmm, no remarks.  My plan must be perfect, then. :)
2018-05-09T08:00:45Z jmercouris: absolutely!
2018-05-09T08:01:06Z jackdaniel: maybe you fall into "it's easier to pass a quantum processor design than improve a single function – co-ops doesn't understand the former so they'll have no objections" trap
2018-05-09T08:01:30Z beach: There is always that possibility.
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2018-05-09T08:01:38Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you saying?
2018-05-09T08:02:12Z beach: jmercouris: That not many people understand my design fully, so they don't know what to tell me.
2018-05-09T08:02:22Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: "maybe you fall into "it's easier to pass a quantum processor design than improve a single function – co-ops doesn't understand the former so they'll have no objections" trap"
2018-05-09T08:02:26Z beach: jmercouris: And that, of course, does NOT imply that my design is perfect.
2018-05-09T08:02:40Z beach: jackdaniel: :)
2018-05-09T08:02:44Z jmercouris: well, my comment was meant tongue in cheek
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2018-05-09T08:06:53Z jmercouris: can anyone explain to me why anyone would use this: https://github.com/objecthub/swift-lispkit#swift-lispkit?
2018-05-09T08:08:10Z jackdaniel: seems pretty obvious: to be able to use scheme with swift
2018-05-09T08:08:28Z jackdaniel: as a dynamic "scripting language"
2018-05-09T08:08:59Z jackdaniel: like when you hook lua into something C-ish
2018-05-09T08:09:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: yes, that much is clear. I asked *why*, not what
2018-05-09T08:09:54Z jackdaniel: why someone would like to use scripting language which is scheme? probably because he wants scheme in his application as a scripting language ;-)
2018-05-09T08:09:58Z jmercouris: I also don't understand why in general, the scripting languages that extend systems would be in a different language than the system itself
2018-05-09T08:10:00Z jackdaniel: I don't really understand the question
2018-05-09T08:10:15Z jmercouris: that is the question, why would your extension language be a different language
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2018-05-09T08:10:23Z beach: jmercouris: I can explain that.
2018-05-09T08:10:46Z jackdaniel: well, you have swift (as a platform tool with libraries etc) and you want to use a language of your choice (in this case scheme)
2018-05-09T08:11:02Z jackdaniel: it is easier to add scheme to swift, then to rewrite whole ecosystem and convince apple to switch to your own scheme-like language
2018-05-09T08:11:09Z jackdaniel: than*
2018-05-09T08:11:40Z beach: jmercouris: People start by wanting "all the speed they can get".  That desire incorrectly leads to a decision to use a static programming language such as C++.  Then they feel the need for extensions at run-time.  But that can only be done in a very primitive way with the language they chose for the implementation.
2018-05-09T08:11:55Z beach: jmercouris: So then they need a dynamic language for "scripting".
2018-05-09T08:12:03Z jackdaniel: people often work with limitations they have (some try to break through the ceiling by writing anew big projects)
2018-05-09T08:12:33Z jmercouris: interesting answers, I don't really see the ecosystem argument so much because there are ways to do FFI
2018-05-09T08:12:41Z beach: jmercouris: Now, you have the typical situation.  Furthermore, advanced users will then start writing serious code using the scripting language.  Now you have a combination that is slow, unsafe, hard to debug, and ugly.
2018-05-09T08:12:42Z jmercouris: but the one about speed makes sense, and legacy projects as well
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2018-05-09T08:12:54Z jackdaniel: beach: I think that in this particular situation it is a limitation imposed by the platform vendor
2018-05-09T08:13:03Z beach: Sure.
2018-05-09T08:13:21Z jmercouris: thanks for the perpsectives
2018-05-09T08:13:31Z jmercouris: I've never been in the position where I've had to make a decision, so I was always wondering why
2018-05-09T08:13:39Z jmercouris: why are these people introducing some random language into their project
2018-05-09T08:13:46Z jmercouris: but, I can now see a few scenarios in which it could happen
2018-05-09T08:13:58Z jmercouris: not that I agree with it anymore, but at least I believe I understand
2018-05-09T08:14:04Z jmercouris: s/anymore/any more
2018-05-09T08:14:06Z beach: jmercouris: That's the subject of the talk I will give on Tuesday to a company in Sweden.
2018-05-09T08:14:14Z jackdaniel: sometimes you want to extend software which already exists (without rewriting it) and you don't want to use its native language
2018-05-09T08:14:25Z jmercouris: Yes, I read your slides :)
2018-05-09T08:14:28Z makomo: hello \o
2018-05-09T08:14:37Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2018-05-09T08:14:38Z jackdaniel: (because you don't like, say, Java)
2018-05-09T08:15:31Z makomo: beach: sounds like an interesting talk. i assume the slides are available somewhere? can i have a look? :-)
2018-05-09T08:15:52Z beach: Latest version: http://metamodular.com/capl.pdf
2018-05-09T08:16:14Z beach: jmercouris: Oh, right, and I fixed many thing according to your suggestions.
2018-05-09T08:16:18Z beach: Not the color scheme though.
2018-05-09T08:16:20Z jmercouris: Nice!
2018-05-09T08:16:33Z jmercouris: well, the color scheme is a question of taste anyway
2018-05-09T08:16:33Z makomo: beach: awesome, thanks
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2018-05-09T08:17:14Z beach: makomo: Sure.  I am not expensive.  As long as the travel and hotel expenses are paid for, I'll come give a talk anywhere (almost).
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2018-05-09T08:17:28Z makomo: haha :-)
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2018-05-09T08:32:39Z LdBeth: Sup
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2018-05-09T08:40:51Z jmercouris: what's the channel for new lisp users called again?
2018-05-09T08:41:11Z makomo: #clnoobs?
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2018-05-09T08:41:23Z jmercouris: right, yes
2018-05-09T08:41:25Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-05-09T08:41:35Z makomo: :-)
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2018-05-09T09:13:17Z p0a: Hello! Trying to use html5-parser, I'm not sure what to do with the tree that it returns
2018-05-09T09:13:33Z p0a: I could manually transverse it but are there any tools that let me do it?
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2018-05-09T09:14:48Z p0a: i.e. (parse-html5-fragment "<p class=\"x\">y</p>" :dom :xmls) will return (("p" (("class" "x")) "y"))
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2018-05-09T09:15:32Z _death: you can use css-selectors (more specifically css-selectors-simple-tree)
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2018-05-09T09:16:37Z p0a: oh that's nice
2018-05-09T09:17:51Z p0a: thanks
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2018-05-09T09:24:50Z p0a: _death: how do I use css-selectors? I'm having trouble figuring it out
2018-05-09T09:30:09Z p0a: I think I might be able to do this quicker by searching for the pattern myself instead of figuring out css-selectors, but who knows
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2018-05-09T09:33:50Z _death: (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5 "<a><b><p class=\"x\">y</p></b></a>"))
2018-05-09T09:34:04Z _death: what did you try
2018-05-09T09:34:12Z p0a: I tried something like that with what I had
2018-05-09T09:34:16Z p0a: but let me see if that works
2018-05-09T09:35:11Z p0a: _death: (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5-fragment "<p>hi</p>" :dom :xmls))
2018-05-09T09:35:43Z _death: you need to use the simple-tree representation, not the xmls one
2018-05-09T09:35:48Z p0a: _death: There is no applicable method for the generic function #<.. CSS-SELECTORS::%DO-QUERY (1)> etc
2018-05-09T09:35:55Z p0a: ah
2018-05-09T09:36:39Z p0a: simple-tree? is that hte default? (css-selectors:query "p" (html5-parser:parse-html5 "<p>hi</p>")) doesn't work either
2018-05-09T09:37:37Z p0a: maybe there's examples onbline
2018-05-09T09:37:43Z _death: you need to load css-selectors-simple-tree
2018-05-09T09:39:04Z p0a: _death: ah nice! you are the developer
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2018-05-09T09:39:20Z p0a: (I just noticed on github bcuz I )
2018-05-09T09:39:32Z p0a: because I searched for css-selectors-simple-tree
2018-05-09T09:40:19Z _death: yeah, I added it some time ago ;)
2018-05-09T09:41:26Z _death: you could also try plump/lquery, I think they're more actively maintained
2018-05-09T09:43:19Z p0a: those look good too! thanks
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2018-05-09T09:43:34Z p0a: I'm trying to write my own news reader
2018-05-09T09:43:58Z p0a: so that I waste less time reading the news, so that I can have more time to waste reading them
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2018-05-09T09:44:48Z p0a: so yeah this is a very important application I'm trying to code :P thanks again
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2018-05-09T09:46:18Z _death: best news is lisp news
2018-05-09T09:46:46Z _death: and if you write something in lisp, you can blog about it and make news
2018-05-09T09:47:33Z shrdlu68: News? What news? Is the war over?
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2018-05-09T09:49:50Z jmercouris: which one?
2018-05-09T09:51:42Z shrdlu68: "The war to end all wars"
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2018-05-09T09:59:16Z antoszka: Guys, kind of remember there was a direct-regex reader macro for cl-ppcre. I googled a little and found one in Hoyte's LoL, but wasn't there a quicklispable one, too?
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2018-05-09T10:00:07Z Xach: antoszka: cl-interpol maybe?
2018-05-09T10:00:14Z antoszka: let me see
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2018-05-09T10:03:25Z loke: Something that converts #/foo/ ⇒ (cl-ppcre:create-scanner "foo") ?
2018-05-09T10:03:38Z loke: Seems trivial to implement?
2018-05-09T10:03:53Z antoszka: http://edicl.github.io/cl-interpol/#regular ← yeah, that should do the job, thx Xach
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2018-05-09T10:04:22Z Xach: so trivial
2018-05-09T10:04:24Z Xach: antoszka: cool
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2018-05-09T10:38:09Z pfdietz: I distrust hacking the reader.  That's a good way to get libraries that don't play well together.
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2018-05-09T10:52:55Z jmercouris: +1 on that
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2018-05-09T10:54:22Z mercourisj: it's somehow a shared state in the interaction of packages that breaks the namespace boundary
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2018-05-09T10:57:42Z jackdaniel: named-readtables are a very good extension to mitigate the problem
2018-05-09T10:59:44Z pjb: Instead, provide functions to set up reader macros (to any character or dispatching character), and let the end-user choose what reader macro to set up.
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2018-05-09T11:59:35Z flip214: beach: sorry, I wasn't so quick. The idea mostly stems from the apache allocation framework, where you pass one or more pools for allocation around (short-lived vs. long-lived), and can (recursively) create and delete pools.
2018-05-09T11:59:58Z flip214: That is quite a nice model for programming if you're bound to something as low-level as C.
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2018-05-09T12:19:52Z White_Flame: genera had that idea, of local heaps to use
2018-05-09T12:20:06Z White_Flame: obviously erlang takes it to the extreme
2018-05-09T12:20:27Z White_Flame: but even erlang doesn't let you actively manage & swap between which heap to currently allocate in
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2018-05-09T12:21:37Z White_Flame: o fcourse, the 2 big advantages are the ability to throw away an entire RAM section quickly, and to perform local GCs.  The former is a lot easier than managing the latter
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2018-05-09T12:22:36Z White_Flame: (depending on the visibility between heaps)
2018-05-09T12:25:52Z pjb: White_Flame: in C++ you have those allocator parameters, and in Cocoa, you can also specify the NSZone class (but "Zones are deprecated and ignored by most classes that have it as a parameter.")
2018-05-09T12:26:20Z White_Flame: well, C++ doesnt' deal with a GC, so it's kind of moot
2018-05-09T12:26:30Z pjb: Really without a garbage collector to move your objects from one heap to the other, it's not really useful indeed.
2018-05-09T12:26:54Z pjb: Ideally, you would make a zone per document, but it's too hard to track all the allocations.
2018-05-09T12:26:55Z White_Flame: Amiga also had allocation type flags, but again no GC
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2018-05-09T13:18:16Z shka: clasp uses MPS (memory pool system) as well
2018-05-09T13:18:27Z shka: same idea
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2018-05-09T13:30:33Z beach: flip214: I see.  But I am willing to try my idea first.
2018-05-09T13:33:36Z White_Flame: well, your idea can expand outward to heaps taht are decoupled from threads
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2018-05-09T13:34:31Z White_Flame: it'd be nice to be forward compatible to that, instead of tightly complecting threads & heaps together early on
2018-05-09T13:35:44Z beach: Well, using per-thread heaps is a central idea, actually, because then each thread can trigger a GC without getting any other threads, nor the global GC involved.
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2018-05-09T13:38:05Z White_Flame: what's your plan for cross-thread references?
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2018-05-09T13:38:25Z beach: There won't be any.
2018-05-09T13:38:50Z White_Flame: so full-on erlang style private heaps?
2018-05-09T13:38:54Z White_Flame: with message passing?
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2018-05-09T13:38:58Z beach: Nope.
2018-05-09T13:39:21Z beach: A write barrier traps an attempt to put a reference to a local object in a shared object.
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2018-05-09T13:39:53Z beach: The local object and its transitive closure is then promoted, thereby preserving the invariant that there are no references from shared objects to local objects.
2018-05-09T13:40:07Z fe[nl]ix: ooh, clever
2018-05-09T13:40:16Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-05-09T13:40:46Z fe[nl]ix: bonus, can you do that concurrently without stopping the world ?
2018-05-09T13:40:54Z beach: Yes, I can.
2018-05-09T13:41:36Z White_Flame: so lots of inter-thread comm will still drive a lot of global gc
2018-05-09T13:41:44Z fe[nl]ix: that would be so cool
2018-05-09T13:41:50Z White_Flame: but still, would be interesting to see how it plays out
2018-05-09T13:42:08Z beach: Yeah, that's why I am saying I am willing to test it.
2018-05-09T13:42:27Z beach: If it is not working, I would like to know why.
2018-05-09T13:42:47Z White_Flame: oh, I'm sure it would work.  The question is on its performance scaling
2018-05-09T13:43:13Z beach: Sure.  I kind of included performance in "working".
2018-05-09T13:43:19Z White_Flame: heh
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2018-05-09T13:46:39Z beach: Furthermore, objects in the global heap don't move, so nothing needs to be done by the mutator threads as a result of a global collection.
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2018-05-09T14:09:49Z flip214: beach: and you should, because all I have is some papers that I've read and a few frameworks I've used, whereas you're trying new things!
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2018-05-09T14:26:25Z kolb: beach: might be worth to take a look at poly lang, they do some pretty weird concurrent GC things that might be suitable for inspiration. What you are doing sounds really cool btw!
2018-05-09T14:26:41Z kolb: s/poly/pony
2018-05-09T14:28:40Z dlowe: <3 pony
2018-05-09T14:29:01Z dlowe: "for people who think rust is too simplified"
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2018-05-09T14:39:35Z shka: hmmm
2018-05-09T14:41:10Z shka: this can be excelent, if only there is a way to build efficient synchronization channel
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2018-05-09T14:42:10Z shka: but in lisp variables often are dragged around in closures
2018-05-09T14:42:58Z shka: it is like you are supposed to move whole lexical env into separate memory pool
2018-05-09T14:43:27Z shka: beach: do you happen to have paper on this? Sounds fascinating!
2018-05-09T14:44:24Z Bike: closures usually only refer to small parts of the lexical environment
2018-05-09T14:45:37Z shka: Bike: that's true
2018-05-09T14:45:49Z shka: not counting dynamic-variables
2018-05-09T14:46:00Z Bike: those aren't part of the lexical environment anyway
2018-05-09T14:46:18Z shka: and probabbly should be in the shared pool to begin with
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2018-05-09T14:52:05Z beach: kolb: Sure, if there is documentation, I am always willing to look at it.
2018-05-09T14:53:06Z beach: shka: What I should do is to improve the description of it in the SICL specification so that it is very detailed.
2018-05-09T14:53:40Z beach: shka: Dynamic variables may be shared, yes, but the dynamic bindings are often per-thread.
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2018-05-09T14:59:42Z shka: beach: right
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2018-05-09T15:13:26Z schweers: Before I conduct any testing on this, which I’ll probably not do correctly anyway, I’ll just ask: should I expect a performance difference between a regular function and a generic function which has exactly one method?
2018-05-09T15:14:28Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-09T15:14:57Z Bike: the generic function can have methods added or removed whenever, so the compiler can't make really any assumptions about it that it can with functions.
2018-05-09T15:14:58Z schweers: should I expect a difference between having one method and more than one?
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2018-05-09T15:15:39Z beach: schweers: Not very much, no.
2018-05-09T15:15:43Z Bike: maybe a little bit. it's probably not important comparatively
2018-05-09T15:16:06Z schweers: beach, Bike: not much difference between one and more than one method?
2018-05-09T15:16:15Z beach: Right.
2018-05-09T15:16:34Z Bike: yeah.
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2018-05-09T15:17:49Z Bike: the gf has to determine what methods to use at runtime in some fashion either way.
2018-05-09T15:17:54Z schweers: I’m asking because I want to know how to properly test code in isolation.  I.e. how do I write a test for a function which uses other functions, without depending on these other functions to work properly?  I think I’d want to insert mock variants of these functions, yet I worry that this might have a penalty in production.
2018-05-09T15:18:29Z schweers: My first thought on how to do this in the first place was to no longer use DEFUN at all, but to use generic functions instead.
2018-05-09T15:18:39Z schweers: But I’m not really happy with that idea.
2018-05-09T15:18:48Z jackdaniel: using generic functions has penalty
2018-05-09T15:19:00Z beach: schweers: Why not?  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
2018-05-09T15:19:07Z jackdaniel: for instance ECL does not compile generic functions to native code at all at this point of time
2018-05-09T15:19:15Z Bike: testing a function that uses other functions without relying on those functions to work... i mean, that's a dependency
2018-05-09T15:19:27Z Bike: jackdaniel: eh? what about the method functions?
2018-05-09T15:19:36Z jackdaniel: method functions are compiled, yes
2018-05-09T15:19:47Z Bike: right, yeah ok.
2018-05-09T15:19:51Z schweers: beach: why shouldn’t I worry?  because methods are not much slower than defuns?
2018-05-09T15:19:55Z shka: don't be afraid of GF slowness
2018-05-09T15:20:09Z Bike: because they're not much slower, and... also you're testing?
2018-05-09T15:20:16Z Bike: i don't really see how that part is related, honestly.
2018-05-09T15:20:24Z shka: exactly
2018-05-09T15:20:35Z schweers: Bike: I don’t worry about the penalty during testing, I worry about the penalty in production
2018-05-09T15:21:06Z Bike: it's worth being conscious of, but it's not like it's severe enough that you should just decide never to use generic functions ever
2018-05-09T15:21:13Z beach: schweers: Generic functions are CURRENTLY SOMEWHAT slower than normal functions.  But generic function dispatch may become faster in the future, and it is also not clear that your code would depend a lot on the performance of function calls, as opposed to of what the functions actually do.
2018-05-09T15:21:15Z jackdaniel: schweers: you may always create macro define-function which expands to a generic function or normal function (depends on some compilation-time parameter)
2018-05-09T15:21:15Z shka: basicly GF expected speed is not that bad at all, it is just very dependent on cache and stuff
2018-05-09T15:21:20Z schweers: I don’t mock dependencies right now, I was just thinking about whether or not it’s a good idea to do so.
2018-05-09T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: of course if you'll use clos heavily, it won't be possible to map it
2018-05-09T15:21:35Z jackdaniel: I'm talking about simple scenarios
2018-05-09T15:21:55Z pjb: Methods are not slow, when dispatching is implemented with a cache.  In the case of Objective-C, a message sending is asymptotically 2 function calls.  I would expect the generic functions to be not much slower. (I'd say 3 function calls at most).
2018-05-09T15:22:33Z shka: yup
2018-05-09T15:22:43Z schweers: I hardly use CLOS at the moment
2018-05-09T15:22:53Z beach: schweers: Sorry to hear that.
2018-05-09T15:22:55Z Bike: it's like how optimization usually goes, where it makes sense to understand the differences in timing deeply, but programmers tend to simplify it to "X is slow" so they can program faster
2018-05-09T15:23:06Z schweers: beach: about what?  not really using CLOS?
2018-05-09T15:23:26Z beach: Yes.
2018-05-09T15:23:29Z schweers: Bike: I didn’t want to fall into this trap, which is why I am asking ;)
2018-05-09T15:23:38Z schweers: Instead of just assuming
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2018-05-09T15:23:44Z pjb: a quick benchmark in ccl repl gives a ratio of less than 2.
2018-05-09T15:23:46Z Bike: yep, good work
2018-05-09T15:23:50Z shka: schweers: CLOS is both useful tool and excelent example of software engineering
2018-05-09T15:24:16Z shka: it is worth learning for both reasons :)
2018-05-09T15:24:22Z pjb: You may also want to perform a comparison generic function vs. function+typecase.
2018-05-09T15:24:24Z schweers: beach: I’m really glad to have CLOS and all it entails at my disposal, but to be honest, I really don’t need it in most places.  At least at the moment.
2018-05-09T15:24:28Z Bike: This is why I tried to start with what I think could cause real slowness, the inability of the compiler to work with GFs
2018-05-09T15:24:42Z Bike: dispatch itself is going to be somewhere between fast and fast enough almost all of the time
2018-05-09T15:25:30Z schweers: But do you folks use gfs for everything?  i.e. not ever using defun any more?
2018-05-09T15:25:44Z Bike: nah.
2018-05-09T15:26:12Z beach: schweers: No, not for everything.
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2018-05-09T15:26:18Z jackdaniel: using CLOS everywhere does not make much sense
2018-05-09T15:27:16Z Bike: they're good when you want to allow extensions and redefinition later very easily, and/or when you have something that needs to work differently on its arguments depending on its classes.
2018-05-09T15:27:18Z Bike: i'd say.
2018-05-09T15:27:19Z jackdaniel: when I write software I usually start with functions and objects. when I need more, I simply promote function to generic function and benefit from CLOS
2018-05-09T15:27:57Z jackdaniel: by objects I mean hash tables and such
2018-05-09T15:28:24Z jackdaniel: and they also with time get sometimes promoted to class instances
2018-05-09T15:28:29Z schweers: jackdaniel: you mean you use classes instead of hashtables?
2018-05-09T15:29:01Z jackdaniel: no, I mean: I start with defun and make-hash-table
2018-05-09T15:29:11Z jackdaniel: but when I need more extensibility and/or control
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2018-05-09T15:29:38Z jackdaniel: functions become generic functions and hash tables become slots in class instances
2018-05-09T15:30:18Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, when you think about a specification for your software (you design it), arranging it around protocols makes more sense
2018-05-09T15:30:28Z jackdaniel: then you could start with CLOS from the very beginning
2018-05-09T15:30:29Z beach: GAH, can we please keep the terminology straight.
2018-05-09T15:30:40Z beach: You can't NOT use CLOS.
2018-05-09T15:30:53Z beach: A hash table is a class instance (of the class HASH-TABLE).
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2018-05-09T15:31:44Z jmercouris: almost never does a project have an architecture in the beginning that resembles the final architecture
2018-05-09T15:31:50Z jmercouris: therefore, I think jackdaniel's approach is a good one
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2018-05-09T15:32:18Z jmercouris: let the software naturally grow, as the need arises for more flexibility, manipulation, specificity, whatever ,then introduce custom classes
2018-05-09T15:32:21Z jackdaniel: beach: I don't know how to phrase the difference clearly if we insist of having terminology technically straight
2018-05-09T15:32:54Z beach: jackdaniel: Use STANDARD-OBJECT and STANDARD-CLASS when you want to refer to those.
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2018-05-09T15:35:05Z jackdaniel: I don't think it would be clear to the person I talk to (it doesn't seem clear when I try to imagine how the sentence would look like). but let's drop it, I'm getting back to other tasks
2018-05-09T15:36:18Z beach: "ordinary functions become generic functions and hash tables become slots of standard objects".
2018-05-09T15:36:57Z schweers: Anyway, thanks for the input.  I’m off for a long weekend \o/
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2018-05-09T15:37:40Z beach: Take care.
2018-05-09T15:37:49Z schweers: Thanks, you too.
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2018-05-09T16:11:02Z jcowan: I'm wondering if anyone has implemented Beta-style methods for CL (it should be possible with a MOP)
2018-05-09T16:11:29Z beach: What are "Beta-style methods"?
2018-05-09T16:11:44Z jcowan: the least-specific method is called, and then call-next-method invokes the next least-specific method, and so on
2018-05-09T16:11:56Z jcowan: (Beta is a programming language that works like this)
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2018-05-09T16:12:16Z beach: Oh.
2018-05-09T16:12:39Z jcowan: the idea is that more general methods control when and how specialization is done by subordinate methods, rather than subordinate methods deciding when and how to invoke superior methods
2018-05-09T16:12:41Z beach: You can already do that with some of the existing method combinations.
2018-05-09T16:13:18Z jmercouris: jcowan: that's really cool
2018-05-09T16:13:27Z jmercouris: I wonder if you could build a new dispach on-top of CL to do that
2018-05-09T16:13:30Z jcowan: ah, I see, :most-specific-last
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2018-05-09T16:14:34Z jcowan: but it is not applicable to standard method combination
2018-05-09T16:14:43Z beach: Correct.
2018-05-09T16:15:05Z beach: So you would need to define a custom method combination.
2018-05-09T16:15:16Z jcowan nods
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2018-05-09T16:18:32Z jcowan: https://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/oopsla04-gff.pdf <-- shows how to do standard ("java") and reversed ("beta") method combination on a per-method basis
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2018-05-09T16:21:08Z jmercouris: beach: do you teach in French?
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2018-05-09T16:31:02Z beach: jmercouris: Usually.  Sometimes in English.
2018-05-09T16:31:05Z beach: jmercouris: Why?
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2018-05-09T16:35:09Z comborico1611: Is there something wrong with Portacle on Ubuntu 18, or more specifically Kubuntu 18?
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2018-05-09T16:35:50Z beach: comborico1611: You need to ask Shinmera.
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2018-05-09T16:46:12Z comborico1611: beach: Thanks!
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2018-05-09T16:47:40Z beach: comborico1611: Sure.  I am afraid he is not here right now, but he has his own channel.  I can't remember the name though.
2018-05-09T16:48:07Z sjl: #shirakumo
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2018-05-09T16:48:15Z beach: Thanks.
2018-05-09T16:49:50Z comborico1611: Thanks!
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2018-05-09T16:59:18Z jmercouris: beach: just wondering because your research papers are always in english
2018-05-09T17:00:35Z Bike: academia's pretty anglophone
2018-05-09T17:00:45Z Bike: go back a few years and it'll be french or german, and then earlier latin
2018-05-09T17:00:51Z Bike: depends on the field too
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2018-05-09T17:34:33Z _death: jcowan: Pascal Costanza has implemented a beta method combination
2018-05-09T17:34:42Z jcowan: neato.  Pointer?
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2018-05-09T17:35:28Z _death: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/60353ea473b7493e
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2018-05-09T18:46:47Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-09T19:37:21Z defunkydrummer: minion: memo for rme: hey, using CCL for the first time with my project. excellent implementation, keep up the good work!
2018-05-09T19:37:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rme when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-05-09T19:41:56Z rme: defunkydrummer: Glad to hear it. Thank you.
2018-05-09T19:41:56Z minion: rme, memo from defunkydrummer: hey, using CCL for the first time with my project. excellent implementation, keep up the good work!
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2018-05-09T19:43:59Z fe[nl]ix: rme: can you remove the slash from the lisp-implementation-version ? it breaks ASDF
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2018-05-09T19:46:22Z fe[nl]ix: rme: also it's a bit redundant to have "1.11.5/v1.11.5-7-gb03cb8eecf28" in there
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2018-05-09T19:49:27Z Xach: asdf had it comin'
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2018-05-09T19:53:22Z fe[nl]ix: :D
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2018-05-09T20:15:24Z rme: Hm.  I wanted to have a version and also show version control information (git describe output, in this case).
2018-05-09T20:15:28Z rme: What is ASDF's problem?
2018-05-09T20:16:11Z rme: In this case only, I mean. I'm not inviting a general critique.
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2018-05-09T20:23:38Z asdfgh: Are there any advantages to dynamic typing over static typing besides macrology (which I think has been fixed with the "Type Systems As Macros" paper)?
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2018-05-09T20:31:18Z akkad: ccl is pretty damn nice
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2018-05-09T20:46:25Z _death: asdfgh: may want to read http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf
2018-05-09T20:48:24Z fe[nl]ix: rme: https://pastebin.ca/4024132
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2018-05-09T20:50:26Z asdfgh: _death: Thanks, I'll check it out.
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2018-05-09T21:00:10Z asdfgh: _death: I'm not terribly convinced. It only mentions static types 3 times and makes poor assumptions ("all static typing is like Pascal", etc).
2018-05-09T21:02:33Z _death: I see.. since you're not interested in reading it, I'm not interested in further discussing it with you
2018-05-09T21:03:10Z _death: it is also offtopic to this channel
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2018-05-09T21:05:32Z rme: fe[nl]ix: I
2018-05-09T21:05:40Z rme: That is, I'll change it.
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2018-05-09T21:24:29Z theemacsshibe[m]:  > Are there any advantages to dynamic typing over static typing besides macrology (which I think has been fixed with the "Type Systems As Macros" paper)?
2018-05-09T21:24:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's much easier to leave types to the compiler, so that the functions you use define your inputs/outputs and not you tbh
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2018-05-09T21:25:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: here SBCL has identified `(lambda (x) (+ x 2))` as returning `((FUNCTION (T) (VALUES NUMBER &OPTIONAL)))`
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2018-05-09T21:33:55Z Bike: probably "static typing" here is meant to include things without manifest typing, like ML
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2018-05-09T21:54:47Z rme: fe[nl]ix: Current CCL sources (1.11.5 and 1.12-dev) no longer have a #\/ in lisp-implementation-version.  Thanks for telling me about the problem that caused.
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2018-05-09T22:14:16Z fe[nl]ix: rme: thanks
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2018-05-09T22:23:00Z jasom: variadic and as a function; how would you implement it? (every #'identity X) (not (position nil X))? somethign else?
2018-05-09T22:24:40Z pillton: jasom: pardon?
2018-05-09T22:25:28Z _death: jasom: I'd think (every #'funcall conjuncts) but given your examples, the former..
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2018-05-09T22:26:12Z jasom: sorry I'm feeling off today.  I have a list X.  I want to test if there are no NILs in the list.  What's a clear way of writing that?
2018-05-09T22:26:57Z _death: your every, or notany..
2018-05-09T22:27:50Z Josh_2: some?
2018-05-09T22:28:27Z jasom: roughly the same effect that (apply #'and X) would have if cl:and were a function.
2018-05-09T22:29:10Z jcowan: _death: Most of the discussion is over my head, but I gather that there are some problems with compiling beta methods.
2018-05-09T22:29:41Z Xach: jasom: i use (notany #'null list) for that sometimes.
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2018-05-09T22:31:16Z _death: jcowan: I've read the discussion some years ago.. will have to read it again to reach a conclusion
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2018-05-09T22:32:51Z _death: jcowan: but do you think these problems are clisp-specific or apply to other implementations as well
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2018-05-09T22:50:08Z jcowan: From what I gather they are because the MOP doesn't have anything to say about what happens at compile time.
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2018-05-09T22:55:31Z _death: that may be.. the code presented, modified to make use of closer-mop, also has an issue.. I may look at it this weekend
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2018-05-09T22:56:33Z Bike: where was the code again?
2018-05-09T22:56:50Z _death: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/60353ea473b7493e
2018-05-09T22:56:51Z _death:  
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2018-05-09T22:58:04Z Bike: thanks
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2018-05-09T23:00:03Z _death: also clisp wasn't the implementation discussed, sbcl was.. but that was 13 years ago
2018-05-09T23:01:10Z Bike: defmethod make-method-lambda <-- oh, i see the problem
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2018-05-10T00:27:36Z _death: ok.. closette has method functions taking 2 params (args and next-methods), code in post has them taking 3 ("inner-blobs"), and closer-mop expects them to take keyword args for gf and method
2018-05-10T00:30:09Z Bike: yeah, mop is kind of ambiguous on this point. keyword arguments is costanza's proposal (in "make-method-lambda considered harmful")
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2018-05-10T00:33:32Z Bike: i have my own idea for it, but he's like the only person who actually writes make-method-lambda methods, sooooo
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2018-05-10T00:34:01Z _death: hehe
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2018-05-10T00:34:57Z _death: but given that I remove the silly ,gf from the expansion, I can compile and load the beta method combination implementation and user code, and running it gives expected results
2018-05-10T00:35:31Z Bike: the... oh, because functions aren't dumpable
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2018-05-10T00:37:18Z _death: but now I have this paper to read on the weekend I guess ;)
2018-05-10T00:38:09Z Bike: if closer mop does keywords you've already got the gist of it
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2018-05-10T00:39:31Z _death: but it contains the rationale, which is not obvious to me
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2018-05-10T01:13:08Z jcowan: clearly that paper was inspired directly or indirectly by the beta efforot
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2018-05-10T01:23:16Z Lord_Nightmare: the PCL book talks about 'lisp in a box' from allegro, I assume that offer expired, and the current 'lisp in a box' is CCL based?
2018-05-10T01:24:01Z Lord_Nightmare: or is there no specific lisp implementation given, and you choose your own?
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2018-05-10T01:26:04Z _death: Lord_Nightmare: nowadays you can check out https://portacle.github.io
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2018-05-10T01:28:03Z _death: jcowan: right.. it also explains the compilation-related issue.. doesn't talk about the particular keyword args used by closer-mop, but I guess they make sense as "default good-to-haves"
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2018-05-10T03:58:44Z White_Flame: What's the way best to permanently set a new readtable at compile time, for the reset of the project?  Are changes to a readtable scoped under the current LOAD?
2018-05-10T03:58:52Z White_Flame: s/reset/rest/
2018-05-10T03:59:38Z White_Flame: trying to use fare-quasiquote (with named-readtables) to make simple list-based codewalkers see comma terms
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2018-05-10T04:00:41Z Bike: load does rebind *readtable*, but that doesn't matter for compile time obviously.
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2018-05-10T04:00:57Z Bike: compile-file rebinds them too, so there's your issue.
2018-05-10T04:01:52Z White_Flame: ok, that ended up being my suspicion
2018-05-10T04:02:00Z White_Flame: I'll have to inject that way high up the build script
2018-05-10T04:02:18Z White_Flame: right now the readtable change is nested inside a LOADed file
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2018-05-10T04:04:38Z Bike: i t hink asdf has like, around hooks, to use? dunno
2018-05-10T04:04:52Z White_Flame: I do have an (eval (read-from-string field-from-init-file)) that should serve the purpose
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2018-05-10T04:07:28Z White_Flame: our build stuff is many years old by now.  I define a single init file, and can use it either interactively in SLIME to set up the environment, or to build an executable image.  Are there other tools out there that are more common for such a purpose?
2018-05-10T04:08:04Z White_Flame: (still haven't replaced our simple-utils package with alexandria either, and those serve highly overlapping purposes)
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2018-05-10T04:55:23Z jasom: hmm, I'm testing a program and sbcl just exits without entering the debugger, printing only this: ; compilation unit aborted\n;   caught 1 fatal ERROR condition
2018-05-10T04:57:11Z jasom: okay, I'm actually calling uiop:quit which explains the exiting without entering the debugger.  Not sure where that compilation unit aborted is coming from though.
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2018-05-10T05:31:52Z jcrowgey1: lets say i'm a long time vim user interested in lisp.  i can apt-get install sbcl on debian and get to a repl
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2018-05-10T05:32:25Z jasom: jcrowgey1: 1) use emacs with evil-mode 2) try out slimv 3) use emacs just as your REPL.
2018-05-10T05:32:26Z jcrowgey1: but i've got no readline, no up arrow for history, nothing like thiat.  i understand that this is where people link into emacs, but surely there's a way to get some basic features without having to learn emacs
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2018-05-10T05:33:10Z jasom: jcrowgey1: you *can* rlwrap sbcl, but it sucks so much compared to an actual full-featured REPL.
2018-05-10T05:33:38Z jcrowgey1: jasom: thanks for the suggestions, i'll try them out!
2018-05-10T05:34:10Z jasom: jcrowgey1: somewhere around here I have my workflow I used to use when slimv was immature and evil-mode didn't exist.  I'll see if I can find it.
2018-05-10T05:34:36Z jasom has used some form of VI for 25 years and vim for 20, so I get where you're coming from
2018-05-10T05:34:52Z jasom does not know why he capitalized vi there
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2018-05-10T05:35:14Z jcrowgey1: lol :)
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2018-05-10T07:09:57Z jdz: jasom: it's like capitalizing LISP, to show your age.
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2018-05-10T07:21:48Z edgar-rft: yeah, we are little kids at school I learning uppercase letters first
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2018-05-10T07:25:23Z akkad: jdz: or to hide the fact that you're tone deaf from having used real lisp :P
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2018-05-10T07:35:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-10T07:59:42Z shrdlu68: Morning beach!
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2018-05-10T08:01:14Z p_l: beach: 'morning
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2018-05-10T09:13:57Z shka: yo all
2018-05-10T09:14:13Z shka: what is the best way to visualize sb-sprof output?
2018-05-10T09:16:24Z jackdaniel: scymtym wrote a CLIM application for flamegraphs
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2018-05-10T09:16:46Z shka: jackdaniel: sounds quite awesome
2018-05-10T09:18:05Z shka: but it looks like it won't work with current sbcl
2018-05-10T09:18:13Z jackdaniel: not sure if it is available somewhere yet, but we plan to include it in clim-examples
2018-05-10T09:18:24Z jackdaniel: why?
2018-05-10T09:18:46Z shka: well, i found file https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clim-flamechart.lisp
2018-05-10T09:19:58Z shka: iirc scymtym mentioned that proper API in sbcl's sprof is missing at the moment
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2018-05-10T12:21:36Z LdBeth: There is a CL native linedit lib to provide a fancy REPL
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2018-05-10T12:22:48Z beach: You can use the CLIM listener.
2018-05-10T12:22:56Z beach: That's native CL, and it is fancy.
2018-05-10T12:23:22Z LdBeth: It’s pretty configurable compared to rlwrap
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2018-05-10T12:27:10Z MichaelRaskin: With rlwrap I know that input outside of ASCII will work normally, though
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2018-05-10T13:18:16Z carmack: How to write on Common Lisp and not go insane?
2018-05-10T13:18:52Z carmack: After all, most of the time I'm writing programs in PHP.
2018-05-10T13:19:08Z jdz: carmack: mental health issues are off-topic here.
2018-05-10T13:19:31Z jackdaniel: but since you write in PHP, if you had to go anywhere it would be sanity ;-)
2018-05-10T13:19:43Z _death: write a program to write php
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2018-05-10T13:21:30Z carmack: You don't give the right answers. It makes me sad.
2018-05-10T13:22:41Z carmack: The correct answer is "M-x doctor"
2018-05-10T13:23:43Z carmack: Or "(doctor) C-x C-e"
2018-05-10T13:23:49Z jdz: carmack: you have been typing into the wrong buffer all along.
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2018-05-10T14:16:52Z carmack: Who is Erik Naggum?
2018-05-10T14:17:13Z Bike: an opinionated lisp programmer who wrote a lot on usenet.
2018-05-10T14:17:17Z carmack: Isn't he dead?
2018-05-10T14:17:24Z Bike: he is dead.
2018-05-10T14:17:27Z carmack: :^(
2018-05-10T14:17:41Z carmack: Was he a good man?
2018-05-10T14:18:02Z Bike: I couldn't say. He wrote interesting things, though.
2018-05-10T14:18:21Z carmack: Was ha a troll?
2018-05-10T14:18:26Z carmack: Like a Xah Lee?
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2018-05-10T14:18:58Z Bike: You can flip through his writing yourself https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/
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2018-05-10T14:20:08Z carmack: Bike: thank you
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2018-05-10T15:36:56Z drmeister: A good discussion thread on Common Lisp on Hacker news:
2018-05-10T15:36:56Z drmeister: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17036497#17038521
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2018-05-10T15:40:51Z _death: sbcl is poisoning the ecosystem.. that reminds me of a similar statement from the past
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2018-05-10T15:48:38Z Xof: said someone calling themselves "_death"
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2018-05-10T15:49:55Z _death: sbcl took my kitten
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2018-05-10T15:50:25Z Xof: and gave it out in pieces to windows users
2018-05-10T15:50:29Z Xof: I'm not sure I see the problem
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2018-05-10T16:04:46Z _death: it ran out of pieces
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2018-05-10T17:08:28Z phoe: drmeister: woah
2018-05-10T17:08:59Z phoe: I just noticed that on HN frontpage, came in, and "woah, it's drmeister"
2018-05-10T17:09:10Z phoe: Then I scrolled down a few pages and "woah, it's still drmeister"
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2018-05-10T17:10:52Z jackdaniel: I open IRC, and last three lines on #lisp are "drmesiter", woah ;-) [four lines, if we count this one]
2018-05-10T17:11:46Z phoe: well, now that's five lines of drmeister
2018-05-10T17:12:36Z nirved: clhs member
2018-05-10T17:12:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
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2018-05-10T17:13:14Z nirved: where does it say the default test function for member?
2018-05-10T17:13:24Z nirved: up to now i assumed it's eql
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2018-05-10T17:16:57Z Bike: clhs 17.2.1
2018-05-10T17:16:58Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2018-05-10T17:17:05Z Bike: it would be nice if this was linked from the member page.
2018-05-10T17:17:35Z jackdaniel: heh
2018-05-10T17:17:42Z jackdaniel: I was about to paste it
2018-05-10T17:17:54Z jackdaniel: it *is* linked from description of find
2018-05-10T17:18:00Z jackdaniel: so it is most likely an ommision
2018-05-10T17:18:05Z Bike: yes.
2018-05-10T17:18:10Z jackdaniel: omission*
2018-05-10T17:18:32Z nirved: member is not a sequence function
2018-05-10T17:18:47Z Bike: And yet, it uses the same rules
2018-05-10T17:18:50Z Bike: it's even in the table
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2018-05-10T18:50:36Z drmeister: I do get around.
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2018-05-10T20:13:11Z ealfonso: when I search "swagger common lisp" in duck-duck-go, first search result: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100406095801AAmvxdx
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2018-05-10T20:16:03Z dlowe: when I search "red herring ealfonso" I get pictures of fish.  Probably not a conincidence, either.
2018-05-10T20:20:13Z himmAllRight: Does anyone know how I can write to the windows CMD in an allegro common lisp application, instead of to the debug consel?
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2018-05-10T20:39:59Z Xach: himmAllRight: in my experience franz support is very helpful with questions like that
2018-05-10T20:40:38Z himmAllRight: Xach: lol mine too (for the most part :P) Just though I'd ask in here first ;)
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2018-05-10T20:42:47Z Xach: himmAllRight: windows and allegro cl is a rare combination here
2018-05-10T20:45:04Z himmAllRight: yea.... L(
2018-05-10T20:45:06Z himmAllRight: :( *
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2018-05-10T21:47:27Z chewzerita: @(+ 1 1)
2018-05-10T21:47:32Z chewzerita: nope, ok
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2018-05-10T21:55:09Z dasdas: hi
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2018-05-10T22:06:30Z cgay: hi
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2018-05-10T23:04:25Z fraktor: I'm trying to learn lisp, and one of the hardest things is writing idiomatically. I can write things that work and that compile, but they don't really "feel" like lisp. If I post some small code in a paste, will someone be willing to help me make it more lispy?
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2018-05-10T23:15:53Z _death: go ahead
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2018-05-10T23:18:21Z makomo: fraktor: i guess that's one of the hardest things when learning a new language (both a human one and a computer one) :-)
2018-05-10T23:21:21Z aeth: Idiomatic Lisp prefers tiny helper functions with descriptive names and expressions returning values instead of setting values where possible.
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2018-05-10T23:22:48Z aeth: So e.g. setting some value as the result of some conditional? See if you can instead have that conditional return values.
2018-05-10T23:23:33Z aeth: And extra bonus points if you can then spin tha conditional off into its own function, whose return value(s) (use multiple-value-bind if necessary) set the thing you want to set.
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2018-05-10T23:24:59Z aeth: So for a trivial, useless example: Instead of (if (zerop x) (setf y 42) (setf y 1)) do (setf y (if (zerop x) 42 1)) or, even better: (let ((y (if (zerop x) 42 1))) ...)
2018-05-10T23:25:49Z MichaelRaskin: Then notice you don't need a setf because let would serve you just as well
2018-05-10T23:26:21Z aeth: You usually have finer control over the scope of variables in Lisp because you're mostly working with return values feeding into let or multiple-value-bind instead of setting variables.
2018-05-10T23:26:59Z aeth: This is just an example. In general, the goal is expression-oriented programming.
2018-05-10T23:27:22Z aeth: Nearly everything returns something in the standard. Nearly everything you write should return something. Take advantage of that.
2018-05-10T23:27:45Z MichaelRaskin: And note the «nearly»
2018-05-10T23:29:16Z MichaelRaskin: If you hit something that is definitely clearer if expressed via imperative assignments, you go ahead and use imperative assignments. This happens rarely, but it does happen, and Lisp is multi-paradigm: you write each piece of code in the style that best suits it.
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2018-05-10T23:30:20Z aeth: One example is a game loop. You're going to be updating state. You're probably going to be updating state through lots of helper functions to keep things tidy. These functions will be mutating things each step of the loop, and probably won't have any useful return value, since you're just calling them for their side effects.
2018-05-10T23:30:59Z aeth: You really have to have an ultra-imperative domain for these things to show up, though. And you're still going to be using lots of return values, just not in the game loop function.
2018-05-10T23:32:21Z aeth: I guess they'll probably always show up as when you are mutating some data structure passed in to the function.
2018-05-10T23:34:09Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: most complicated algorithms are easier to implement with mutation, though. Even some persistent data structures (immutable for the world) are better than corresponding purely functional (immutable-throughout) data structures.
2018-05-10T23:35:03Z MichaelRaskin: Of course, there are many programs that can find all the necessary algorithms in libraries.
2018-05-10T23:35:54Z aeth: What I find that works is "mostly functional" style of pure functions feeding into mutable data structures. e.g. (setf (aref foo 42) (1+ x))
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2018-05-10T23:36:09Z aeth: 1+ is easy to reason about, small, trivial, inline.
2018-05-10T23:36:33Z aeth: There are plenty of opportunities for your own 1+es
2018-05-10T23:36:46Z aeth: Even if your domain is very mutable
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2018-05-10T23:50:41Z pierpa: you have scared them away :)
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2018-05-10T23:51:46Z Beepy: How do I compile a form only if a certain safety or optimization level is set?
2018-05-10T23:52:33Z pierpa: you can't do this in portable CL, so check your implementation docs
2018-05-10T23:52:56Z Beepy: Okay
2018-05-10T23:53:28Z pierpa: (or, if non portble code is ok for you, then say which implementation you are interested in)
2018-05-10T23:54:08Z Beepy: sbcl
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2018-05-10T23:54:35Z pierpa: then someone will know surely. Not me though.
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2018-05-10T23:57:30Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean, but you can examine the optimization levels with sb-cltl2
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2018-05-11T00:06:05Z aeth: Would be useful if you can do that non-portably in SBCL. Force back in bounds checks if safety is 0. Mwahahah.
2018-05-11T00:06:54Z Bike: odes that really constitute usefulness
2018-05-11T00:07:04Z pierpa: looks like the incipit of a nightmare :)
2018-05-11T00:07:17Z Beepy: I'm looking to do that exact opposite of that
2018-05-11T00:08:18Z pierpa: so that you can have different code according to optimization settings. Good luck :)
2018-05-11T00:09:17Z Bike: you want it to be unsafe at safety 3?
2018-05-11T00:09:32Z Beepy: I'm adding bounds checking only at safety 3
2018-05-11T00:09:36Z pierpa: I don't know the details of sbcl, but maybe there is a finer mechanism for controlling single optimizations, like there is in other implementations.
2018-05-11T00:09:54Z Bike: there is, but it's not intended for users
2018-05-11T00:10:36Z pierpa: probably for good reasons
2018-05-11T00:10:42Z Beepy: I'm working on trying to fix one of the easy bugs in sbcl
2018-05-11T00:10:47Z Beepy: so I could probably use it
2018-05-11T00:10:52Z pierpa: ok
2018-05-11T00:10:53Z Bike: wait, this is for internal code?
2018-05-11T00:10:59Z Bike: i think they have their own accessors, then
2018-05-11T00:11:27Z Beepy: I'll jump on over to #sbcl and see what they have to say then
2018-05-11T00:14:01Z aeth: Not necssarily Lisp-specific, but does anyone know a good way to fill a region enclosed by Bézier curves? I guess I should just do the outline and use a generic flood-fill algorithm? Although I'm not sure how I'd determine the initial inside of a letter.
2018-05-11T00:15:48Z White_Flame: well, there's tons and tons of work put into stuff like that, for font renderers & vector graphics
2018-05-11T00:16:03Z aeth: The main problem with a more naive way to fill a letter is horizontal lines at the top or bottom of a shape. There's also some issues with odd corners like K
2018-05-11T00:16:17Z White_Flame: I believe that one of the basic strategies is to search the bezier curve for where it crosses raster lines, and draw horizontal segments
2018-05-11T00:17:13Z White_Flame: of course, if the curvature is low during one segment of the search, you can approximate it with a line
2018-05-11T00:17:49Z White_Flame: you need to very carefully define what it means for a pixel to be "inside" the shape, and stick to that definition
2018-05-11T00:17:49Z aeth: At the moment, I draw the points where the bezier curve intersects with horizontal lines. This has two special cases: (1) Bezier lines that are horizontal lines and (2) curves that are pretty close to a horizontal line. To handle the 2nd, I just run the same code, except on columns. Now I have a complete outline.
2018-05-11T00:19:09Z White_Flame: that's just a line, not an area
2018-05-11T00:19:12Z pierpa: if the bezier curve does not add the information of which side is the interior one, how can you tell which side is the one to fill?
2018-05-11T00:19:16Z aeth: White_Flame: yes, I have lines
2018-05-11T00:19:22Z aeth: s/lines/outlines/
2018-05-11T00:19:38Z aeth: pierpa: I have no idea if there's some convention to either TTF or zpb-ttf
2018-05-11T00:19:46Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-05-11T00:19:51Z White_Flame: outlines have zero width and are generally invisible :)
2018-05-11T00:19:55Z aeth: Unfortunately, one of my most reliable sources *does* have a convention, always fill to the right.
2018-05-11T00:20:02Z pierpa: k
2018-05-11T00:20:08Z White_Flame: unless you specifically define the width of the outline and determine which pixels that actual-width outline shape area overlaps
2018-05-11T00:20:21Z aeth: White_Flame: I use round to make the width larger than 0
2018-05-11T00:21:00Z aeth: Although I guess even without round, a lucky pixel here or there would land exactly on a whole number and be drawn :-p
2018-05-11T00:21:08Z aeth: s/lucky pixel/lucky solution/
2018-05-11T00:21:33Z White_Flame: I think you're going to end up with pretty ugly beziers that way
2018-05-11T00:21:41Z aeth: It's possible that I can just fill in the outline, if there's no way in TTF or zpb-ttf to figure out the inside of a shpe
2018-05-11T00:21:45Z White_Flame: don't do outlines, do spans of pixels that are "inside" the area
2018-05-11T00:22:16Z aeth: White_Flame: I can replace round with a more sophistacted method later.
2018-05-11T00:22:20Z White_Flame: for each raster line, there are N crossings of the bezier path.  That determines the spans
2018-05-11T00:22:30Z aeth: What's more important is that I fill the glyphs that are drawn
2018-05-11T00:23:34Z aeth: This is a large project, anything that can be procrastinated will be procrastinated.
2018-05-11T00:25:54Z aeth: It does look like there are still some edge cases that round doesn't handle effectively, especially at smaller sizes.
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2018-05-11T00:35:05Z White_Flame: right, it's the mathematical crossing locations, not the pixels, that matter
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2018-05-11T00:35:17Z White_Flame: convert to pixel locations as the very last step
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2018-05-11T01:12:35Z Xach: aeth: have you seen cl-vectors? it does all the work.
2018-05-11T01:13:00Z Xach: i like it very much
2018-05-11T01:13:36Z Xach: it closed the gap for me for drawing nice shapes into pngs and pdfs
2018-05-11T01:13:41Z Xach: well pngs anyway
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2018-05-11T01:16:39Z aeth: Xach: I have to do my own implementation because I'm, at the moment, planning on moving this to the GPU at some point.
2018-05-11T01:16:57Z aeth: I can use libraries like zpb-ttf because I can just convert that to whatever format the GPU will expect
2018-05-11T01:17:48Z aeth: (It wouldn't be run every frame, it would just be run on the GPU because it's one of those very parallel things that GPU compute should do well.)
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2018-05-11T01:29:30Z Xach: ok, well, cl-vectors is cool and explains & implements the math for pixel coverage of closed bezier curve paths
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2018-05-11T01:33:54Z aeth: I think I have an algorithm. I now color the outline red for entering the shape and blue for exiting the shape.
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2018-05-11T01:40:12Z aeth: (if both, i.e. purple, then it's ignored altogether afaik)
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2018-05-11T01:48:27Z ealfonso: is there an API documentation tool in CL?
2018-05-11T01:49:14Z pierpa: yes, emacs
2018-05-11T01:51:03Z Xach: ealfonso: there are a few. there is not one consensus tool.
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2018-05-11T01:52:43Z ealfonso: Xach is there one or a few you might recommend?
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2018-05-11T01:57:22Z Xach: ealfonso: hmm, no, sorry.
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2018-05-11T02:00:21Z ealfonso: https://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool it would be great if those were sorted by last active development date, or by popularity, or something more useful than alphabetical
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2018-05-11T02:08:54Z ealfonso: s/great/better
2018-05-11T02:09:47Z ealfonso: trying out clod, which works by introspection and generates emacs org mode files, which can then be exported to whatever. seems interesting
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2018-05-11T03:33:56Z drmeister: ::notify eudoxia If you designed this (http://lisp-lang.org) - great job!  It's really nice.  One critical comment about it that I read on Hacker news that made a good point was that there is no indication that one must scroll up to see more.
2018-05-11T03:33:56Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let eudoxia know as soon as possible.
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2018-05-11T03:38:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-11T03:45:06Z jasom: carmack: a late lisper who was both highly opinionated and active on the c.l.l newsgroup
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2018-05-11T03:45:24Z jasom: whoops, I was scrolled up ~12 hours
2018-05-11T03:45:55Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2018-05-11T03:58:08Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi beach
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2018-05-11T05:43:49Z akkad: drmeister: nice "fluff"
2018-05-11T05:43:50Z akkad: haha
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2018-05-11T06:26:20Z carmack: jasom: ok, thank you
2018-05-11T06:26:40Z carmack: jasom: i read Xah Lee article about this guy
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2018-05-11T06:49:43Z loke: carmack: About whom?
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2018-05-11T06:56:29Z beach: Erik Naggum, I would guess.
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2018-05-11T07:05:59Z carmack: loke: Erik Naggum
2018-05-11T07:06:09Z loke: carmack: I see.
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2018-05-11T07:06:20Z loke: Well, I wouldn't trust anything I see Xah say
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2018-05-11T07:06:39Z loke: I don't know what he said about Naggum, but knowing Xah you can assume it's wrong. Or at least misguided.
2018-05-11T07:06:54Z beach: I second that.
2018-05-11T07:06:56Z akkad: does Xah still charge for his emacs notes?
2018-05-11T07:07:58Z carmack: akkad: yes :^)
2018-05-11T07:08:07Z carmack: akkad: he always want money
2018-05-11T07:08:35Z akkad: learning "How to find a job the hardway." by Zed Shaw
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2018-05-11T07:18:41Z carmack: Xah Lee once wrote to me asking me to send him money in exchange for some of his book
2018-05-11T07:18:56Z carmack: :D
2018-05-11T07:19:22Z carmack: I wanted to be friends with him, and he wants money. It makes me sad.
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2018-05-11T07:21:35Z Zhivago: What did Xah write a book on? :)
2018-05-11T07:22:21Z carmack: Zhivago: about Javascript
2018-05-11T07:22:27Z carmack: Zhivago: nothing special
2018-05-11T07:22:56Z carmack: I imprecise put it, this is not a book, but a reference material
2018-05-11T07:23:16Z Zhivago: Ah, I was hoping it might have cult potential.
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2018-05-11T07:27:02Z Zhivago: Hmm, speaking of Xah, is he dead or something? He seemed to be planning for it a while back.
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2018-05-11T07:28:45Z carmack: Zhivago: i don't know
2018-05-11T07:29:15Z carmack: I talk about Erik Naggum
2018-05-11T07:29:39Z carmack: But Xah Lee epic guy, lol
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2018-05-11T07:33:11Z Zhivago: Well, I'm pretty sure Erik is dead.
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2018-05-11T07:36:00Z Zhivago: Maybe there would be a market for a dead lisper app. Perhaps with a betting pool.
2018-05-11T07:36:47Z carmack: Zhivago: Erik is dead
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2018-05-11T07:38:15Z carmack: I dream of lisp becoming a popular programming language with a decent salary again. And all hipster programming languages are gone into oblivion.
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2018-05-11T07:48:10Z Zhivago: Become rich and pay people to program in lisp and realize your gream.
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2018-05-11T07:55:24Z scymtym: shka: regarding the flamegraph thing. 1) starting with SBCL 1.4.6, sb-sprof exports the required interface 2) the file you found is obsolete and i'm going to delete it. i'm cleaning up a bit and pushing a version to github now. please consider it nothing more than a proof-of-concept nevertheless
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2018-05-11T08:04:31Z adlai: all you need for a "dead lisper app" is to feed entropy into reverse-sxhash, and then anneal
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2018-05-11T08:06:08Z shka: scymtym: awesome! thanks, i am looking forward for it
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2018-05-11T08:27:58Z loke: Zhivago: Can you realise by GREAM?
2018-05-11T08:28:01Z loke: s/by/my/
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2018-05-11T09:28:42Z devn: carmack: just do clojure. done deal.
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2018-05-11T10:02:51Z scymtym: shka: https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph/tree/future
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2018-05-11T10:10:25Z shka: scymtym: ooh, awesome, I will try it out at home
2018-05-11T10:10:36Z shka: i have newest sbcl there
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2018-05-11T10:20:34Z jmercouris: Hi everyone, I'm trying to solve a difficult type of problem involving cominbatorials
2018-05-11T10:20:46Z jmercouris: imagine this, you have a set of rules
2018-05-11T10:21:00Z jmercouris: these rules are irrelevant to the problem
2018-05-11T10:21:09Z jmercouris: or rather, the nature of these rules are irrelevant
2018-05-11T10:21:27Z jmercouris: you have a set of data, and you must selectively apply different rules to different pieces of the data to maximize some variable
2018-05-11T10:21:50Z jmercouris: so imagine this, I have ten pieces of data, and five rules
2018-05-11T10:22:05Z jmercouris: I can say something like data piece one + rule 1 = some value
2018-05-11T10:22:12Z jmercouris: data piece one + rule 2 = some different value
2018-05-11T10:22:16Z White_Flame: genetic algorithm
2018-05-11T10:22:24Z jmercouris: wait a second
2018-05-11T10:22:33Z jmercouris: that might be an approach, I hadn't thought about that
2018-05-11T10:22:50Z White_Flame: the nice thing is that it sounds like you have a very easy to compute fitness function
2018-05-11T10:22:57Z jmercouris: yes, I do
2018-05-11T10:23:08Z jmercouris: the problem is, the amount of permutations is astronomical
2018-05-11T10:23:26Z White_Flame: hence genetic algorithm ;)
2018-05-11T10:23:45Z White_Flame: now, if you want to guarantee the maximum across all possibilities, then you might be in a bit more of a pickle
2018-05-11T10:24:08Z jmercouris: well, the challenge is that, I would have to train a genetic algorithm for each data set
2018-05-11T10:24:12Z jmercouris: and each rule set
2018-05-11T10:24:17Z jmercouris: and there are many sets of rules, unfortunately
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2018-05-11T10:24:45Z jmercouris: maybe I should just start with a small subset
2018-05-11T10:25:09Z White_Flame: oh, so it's not combine N rules together, but you have a bag of x and a bag of y, and need to find a singular pairing from X and Y that maximizes fitness?
2018-05-11T10:25:27Z jmercouris: yes, it is like that
2018-05-11T10:25:42Z jmercouris: let me make it more concrete for you, and tell you exactly what the problem I'm trying to solve is
2018-05-11T10:25:53Z jmercouris: you have a set of parcels that you want to ship somewhere
2018-05-11T10:26:01Z jmercouris: which shipping products can you combine from which carriers to get the cheapest possible shipping
2018-05-11T10:26:15Z jmercouris: the thing is, they all have different rules, and prices for a different product may vary based on weight, or other strange factors
2018-05-11T10:26:26Z White_Flame: then maybe just monte carlo and see what averages out
2018-05-11T10:26:32Z jmercouris: so, you might think, lump them all in a box, and get the carrier with the cheapest quote
2018-05-11T10:26:43Z jmercouris: the problem is, that is *not* the cheapest way to ship all the items
2018-05-11T10:27:28Z White_Flame: what do you want the result to be?
2018-05-11T10:27:56Z White_Flame: a function that you feed in the situation, and it spits out how many packages and to which carriers?
2018-05-11T10:28:00Z jmercouris: a set of products (aka USPS first class mail, priority mail) that one should buy to ship a set of packages somewhere for the cheapest price
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2018-05-11T10:28:05Z jmercouris: correct
2018-05-11T10:28:38Z White_Flame: well, GAs do build up functions
2018-05-11T10:28:58Z White_Flame: or at least, can
2018-05-11T10:29:17Z jmercouris: but they'll only be able to respond to sort of "known" set of packages, no?
2018-05-11T10:29:22Z White_Flame: so given a set of products, the search space is still too big?
2018-05-11T10:29:30Z jmercouris: if you give them a piece of data they haven't been trained against, they'll fail
2018-05-11T10:30:05Z jmercouris: given a set of products, the search space is not too big, the issue is the variety of parcels and ways the parcels can be combined together
2018-05-11T10:30:34Z jmercouris: even just think about this, you have 3d models of products, even just the challenge of knowing how products could fit together in a box
2018-05-11T10:30:48Z jmercouris: we don't have to get into that, but yeah, I've been thinking about this problem for days
2018-05-11T10:30:56Z White_Flame: I'm basically asking if the "real" search could be done for each concrete example, instead of trying to conceive of a meta-maximum
2018-05-11T10:31:08Z jmercouris: can you please clarify what you mean?
2018-05-11T10:31:16Z jmercouris: could someone sit down by hand, and calculate the ideal?
2018-05-11T10:31:42Z White_Flame: since you want a function to be generated, you want code which can generate the code which can solve problems
2018-05-11T10:31:47Z White_Flame: that's a sort of meta solution
2018-05-11T10:31:58Z jmercouris: yes, that is what I would like to do
2018-05-11T10:32:06Z jmercouris: so that as the rules change, I can rerun my program
2018-05-11T10:32:43Z White_Flame: what I'm asking is that instead of lookign at the entire space, if you just look at "Here's the things I need to ship now", can a reasonable search be done at that instance instead of trying to tackle the meta-problem?
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2018-05-11T10:32:59Z jmercouris: yes, I believe so
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2018-05-11T10:33:44Z White_Flame: "solving" the meta problem wil leave you with a reasonable guess as to a policy which will generate a decision.  Doing the real search in every instance will give you optimal results
2018-05-11T10:34:12Z jmercouris: I guess what will determine which approach to use would be the compute time cost
2018-05-11T10:34:35Z White_Flame: which is why I asked how feasible the search is per instance
2018-05-11T10:34:57Z jmercouris: I would say, the cost is very high
2018-05-11T10:35:07Z jmercouris: because I can see so many permutations of grouping together parcels and carriers
2018-05-11T10:35:19Z White_Flame: this is also a field where expert systems could be used, throwing human-generated preference rules for evaluating the situation
2018-05-11T10:35:36Z White_Flame: togehter into a pot and seeing what emerges
2018-05-11T10:36:19Z jmercouris: there are no humans in this space, unfortunately
2018-05-11T10:36:29Z jmercouris: and giving some supervised learning would be extraordinarly laborious
2018-05-11T10:37:46Z White_Flame: your inputs, for each problem run, is a set of items with their weight & dimensions, a set of available containers/dimensions/cost, and the output is a list of containers each of which hold some items?
2018-05-11T10:38:04Z jmercouris: yes, correct
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2018-05-11T10:38:56Z White_Flame: and of course the set of items changes constantly, but the available shipping methods also can change
2018-05-11T10:39:15Z jmercouris: yes, the set of available shipping methods can change depending on the locale, offers, etc
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2018-05-11T10:39:59Z jmercouris: also important to note, the set of available containers/dimensions/cost is not discrete. That is, the price of a parcel will increase by weight, for some products, therefore, there are an infinite number of prices available
2018-05-11T10:40:13Z White_Flame: right
2018-05-11T10:40:30Z White_Flame: really, it's a pricing algorihm per parcel, not price
2018-05-11T10:40:51Z jmercouris: no, it isn't because multiple parcels may be grouped into a bigger parcel to save on overall price
2018-05-11T10:40:58Z White_Flame: but presumably those algorithms are from a small set, usually base + N * weight over threshold
2018-05-11T10:41:18Z White_Flame: "parcel" as in packed shipping box
2018-05-11T10:41:27Z jmercouris: it's not about reducing the total cost per parcel, because parcels may be merged into "meta" parcels
2018-05-11T10:41:44Z jmercouris: a packed shipping box may be put into another box with another box
2018-05-11T10:41:48Z jmercouris: and that *MAY* be cheaper
2018-05-11T10:42:09Z jmercouris: think about when you get items from amazon, and sometimes there are multiple boxes in the box
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2018-05-11T10:42:24Z White_Flame: I don't think I've ever received nested amazon boxes
2018-05-11T10:42:28Z jmercouris: it's about reducing the total cost for the whole shipment (a set of parcels)
2018-05-11T10:42:38Z jmercouris: White_Flame: I have
2018-05-11T10:42:59Z jmercouris: anyways, the probem is pretty complex
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2018-05-11T10:43:04Z jmercouris: I'm looking into genetic algorithms now
2018-05-11T10:43:09Z White_Flame: I do think this is probably an expert system solution
2018-05-11T10:43:32Z White_Flame: because there's a lot of human understanding factors of what's possible, as well as rote math to determine weight and if dimensions can fit within each other
2018-05-11T10:43:57Z jmercouris: I think maybe I'll decompose the problem into a smaller set of problems and just solve one at a time
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2018-05-11T10:44:17Z jmercouris: for example, I'll make a program that given a set of parcels calculates the ways that they may be combined into larger, meta parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:20Z jmercouris: with some reasonble constraints
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2018-05-11T10:44:42Z jmercouris: and then it returns a set of these parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:59Z jmercouris: then maybe another program that generates a set of prices given a set of parcels
2018-05-11T10:44:59Z White_Flame: I once ordered 10 smal items from amazon, and each came in their own separate shipping box.  I'ts hard to understand how that would have been cheaper
2018-05-11T10:45:15Z jmercouris: Well, yeah, maybe the should have combined them in a couple of different ways
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2018-05-11T10:45:31Z jmercouris: but the other thing that you don't understand about amazon fulfillment is that it isn't all necessarily coming from the same warehouse
2018-05-11T10:45:47Z White_Flame: well, those are all components, but they all need to be integrated functions of the problem solver, not necessarily separated steps
2018-05-11T10:46:04Z jmercouris: yes, but they are I think simpler to solve as separate steps
2018-05-11T10:46:12Z jmercouris: I'm not a genius :D
2018-05-11T10:46:17Z jmercouris: I can't keep it all in my head
2018-05-11T10:46:18Z White_Flame: well, they're necessarily sub-problems
2018-05-11T10:46:25Z jmercouris: so in my mind they are like mini programs
2018-05-11T10:46:41Z White_Flame: it's not making the problem easier, because that's not actually decomposing it
2018-05-11T10:46:41Z jmercouris: I'm always thinking of programs in my head as sets of computers and functions with their own APIs
2018-05-11T10:47:12Z jmercouris: how would you make the problem easier? and how is breaking apart the problem into sub-problems not decomoposing it?
2018-05-11T10:47:43Z White_Flame: you're not transforming the problem into another representation
2018-05-11T10:47:48Z White_Flame: it's still the same problem
2018-05-11T10:48:05Z jmercouris: well, it is a set of problems, where we pipe information from one step to the next
2018-05-11T10:48:11Z jmercouris: true, it is the same set of operations
2018-05-11T10:48:23Z White_Flame: like, if you want to figure out how to efficiently mow a yard, you need to figure out how to start the lawnmower.  That doesn't actually decompose the difficulty of the problem, to figure out how to operate it
2018-05-11T10:48:23Z jmercouris: but by separating the problems with some sort of API, it feels easier to manage for me
2018-05-11T10:49:22Z jmercouris: talking with you has been very helpful in helping me sort out my thoughts
2018-05-11T10:49:24Z jmercouris: thanks for your time
2018-05-11T10:49:27Z White_Flame: sure
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2018-05-11T13:14:14Z beli: hi there. i am trying to install turtle (https://turtlapp.com/docs/server/) and while calling "cl '(load "start")' i get error message that package QL does not exists. it should be loaded due to (ql:quickload :turtl) and quickload is installed on my system. any ideas why it is not found?
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2018-05-11T13:43:28Z nirved: beli: load quicklisp first
2018-05-11T13:43:58Z beli: nirved: got it....no ql error anymore, but it doesn't find TURTL now
2018-05-11T13:44:40Z beli: nirved: debian package did install ql, but not configure/load it automagically
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2018-05-11T13:47:17Z nirved: beli: check *default-pathname-defaults*, maybe use full path in (load "/..../api/start")
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2018-05-11T14:07:51Z beli: nirved: its using relative paths, but giving fullpath worked though. now i run in a problem with ql again. i need to read more about how it works i guess...but enough for today. thanks for your help
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2018-05-11T14:38:55Z mercourisj: any work on compiling lisp to wasm?
2018-05-11T14:40:37Z Xach: mercourisj: doug crosher looked into it a while ago but i haven't heard anything recent.
2018-05-11T14:40:55Z mercourisj: Xach: I see, thanks
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2018-05-11T15:03:08Z _death: may want to check out https://github.com/Arboreta/arboreta-wasm/
2018-05-11T15:03:37Z mercourisj: _death: thanks
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2018-05-11T15:56:27Z Oladon_work: drmeister: You are a most eloquent apologist for Lisp — well done! (re: your recent HN comments0
2018-05-11T15:56:29Z Oladon_work: )
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2018-05-11T15:58:14Z easye: Oladon_work: which HN comments?
2018-05-11T15:58:28Z Oladon_work: easye: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17036497
2018-05-11T16:01:58Z Xach: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=drmeister is another way to find things
2018-05-11T16:03:57Z easye: Thanks Oladon_work, Xach
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2018-05-11T16:35:19Z akkad: when the background images are bigger in size than the clhs.
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2018-05-11T17:11:33Z drmeister: Thankew.
2018-05-11T17:12:34Z Oladon_work: Certainly! Your explication of Lisp's virtues is quite masterful, unlike many of our contemporaries :)
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2018-05-11T17:19:38Z drmeister: Good with words - some say I am. When I have time to think of them.
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2018-05-11T17:21:47Z Oladon_work: drmeister: I hear you!
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2018-05-11T18:37:25Z varjag: so people, what's the recommended cl web stack/framework in 2018?
2018-05-11T18:37:30Z varjag: caveman?
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2018-05-11T19:15:24Z jjkola: hi
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2018-05-11T19:18:26Z cgay: hi
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2018-05-11T19:47:45Z aeth: Is there some intermediate step between :build-operation asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op and leaving things in a million little files? In particular, I *want* that monolithicness build step, but only in my code because I can't reasonably expect other people's libraries to not break when put in one big file.
2018-05-11T19:48:16Z aeth: Searching around ASDF, there appears to be a per-system version, but (1) I couldn't get it to work and (2) I still have many systems.
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2018-05-11T19:50:16Z aeth: I basically want the performance and safety benefits of everything being in one file in the final build step of my game engine (not for development, but for end users) without having to put up with everything *actually* being in one file.
2018-05-11T19:51:00Z flip214: aeth: at least for SBCL you can simply "cat" files together.
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2018-05-11T19:52:23Z aeth: In case anyone's wondering: for performance, SBCL appears to do a limited form of inlining within a compilation unit. Not as good as declaring a function inline, though. It appears to be one pass, so its inlining of (foo 42) where foo is (defun foo (x) (1+ x)) won't simplify it to 43 but to (1+ 42), unlike with declaring foo inline.
2018-05-11T19:53:00Z aeth: And for safety, SBCL can do some degree of static type checking when the functions are in the same compilation unit (possibly because of the former step)! (I think they're compilation warnings rather than errors, though.)
2018-05-11T19:53:35Z Bike: with-compilation-unit?
2018-05-11T19:53:44Z aeth: I test these with with-compilation-unit
2018-05-11T19:54:15Z Xof: Bike: there's a special case for file scope in 3.2.2.3
2018-05-11T19:54:31Z Xof: it's actually not related to compilation unit, or shouldn't be...
2018-05-11T19:54:32Z aeth: And I definitely want the end user to get the version where everything that can be in a compilation unit is. It might need to be more sophisticated than that. There might need to be a separation of utils and everything else, for instance, to prevent having to write eval-whens for functions used in macros
2018-05-11T19:54:37Z Bike: clhs 3.2.2.3
2018-05-11T19:54:37Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2018-05-11T19:54:47Z Xof: it's the same thing that caused the bordeaux-threads bug
2018-05-11T19:54:50Z Bike: well that's annoying
2018-05-11T19:54:56Z aeth: oh, hmm
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2018-05-11T19:57:32Z Xof: I can't remember if we expand our treatment to compilation-unit
2018-05-11T19:57:37Z Xof: I can't even remember where this code is
2018-05-11T19:59:38Z aeth: I'm guessing I'll have to write my own build-operation for ASDF that produces the desired result, at least in my three supported implementations of SBCL, CCL, and ECL. (Although I have issues with ECL at the moment. I think it's because I have two different versions of ECL installed with the exact same name in ~/.cache/common-lisp/, one from roswell and one from my distro's package manager, and the caches are probably fighting)
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2018-05-11T20:01:33Z aeth: (I don't know why my distro's ECL doesn't use the full distro-specific version name in .cache like SBCL does)
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2018-05-11T20:09:27Z aeth: flip214: Is catting files built into SBCL or do you mean use cat?
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2018-05-11T20:19:18Z aeth: Is there some Emacs/SLIME plugin to detect SBCL-detectable errors before compilation?
2018-05-11T20:19:46Z aeth: e.g. consider this file that won't compile in SBCL: (defun foo (x y) (declare (number x y)) (+ x y)) (defun bar () (foo 4 "hi"))
2018-05-11T20:21:09Z aeth: In theory, shouldn't that be catchable before the file is compiled? It'd be useful because often I just compile the function, and that's only catchable if the *file* is being compiled.
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2018-05-11T20:22:15Z flip214: aeth: "cat" as in the command-line utility, /bin/cat.
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2018-05-11T20:22:50Z flip214: aeth: does it matter whether Emacs/SLIME do the compilation+warning step, or your Common Lisp?
2018-05-11T20:23:12Z flip214: the warning should be given in any case.
2018-05-11T20:23:37Z flip214: you could also try
2018-05-11T20:23:39Z flip214:    (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t)
2018-05-11T20:23:41Z aeth: flip214: The compiler error is only given when the file is compiled, via C-c C-k. If bar is compiled alone with C-c C-c then it's not caught.
2018-05-11T20:23:48Z flip214: but that's another can of worms....
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2018-05-11T20:24:57Z aeth: Oh, and it's also only caught at the file level, but in the editor you could probably catch it at any level.
2018-05-11T20:25:06Z aeth: i.e. check using the function type that's currently in the environment
2018-05-11T20:25:28Z aeth: afaik only SBCL does the whole function type thing, though, so it'd be very specific to SBCL
2018-05-11T20:28:06Z aeth: flip214: I guess sb-ext:*derive-function-types* set to T would make the number declaration in foo unnecessary?
2018-05-11T20:28:50Z flip214: aeth: yes. and (defun bar ...) should then see that a string is unacceptable.
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2018-05-11T20:28:51Z aeth: It would be interesting to turn that on and then run a full application static check (not sure how, SBCL only checks within files/compilation-units) to see if I have any uncaught bugs.
2018-05-11T20:29:06Z aeth: Probably not useful outside of a test like that.
2018-05-11T20:29:18Z flip214: aeth: this setting just makes SBCL automatically define the function types.
2018-05-11T20:29:22Z aeth: Could be interesting to actually make that a CI test.
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2018-05-11T20:29:48Z aeth: (1) turn on function type derivation, (2) do a full application static check
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2018-05-11T20:30:45Z aeth: If the only way to do the latter is to concatenate files, though, then it wouldn't be general purpose because people use separate files to get around having to do eval-whens.
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2018-05-11T20:33:09Z mercourisj: White_Flame: any resources on tree based GA in Lisp?
2018-05-11T20:34:46Z flip214: aeth: hmmm, it doesn't warn me even if in the same file.... perhaps that's broken in my version?!
2018-05-11T20:34:53Z aeth: Oh, in case anyone's wondering, the reason I'm thinking about all of this is because the 3rd or 4th Python type checker is on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17048446
2018-05-11T20:34:58Z flip214: I think I've seen warnings even across files.
2018-05-11T20:35:03Z aeth: But SBCL is like 90% of the way there.
2018-05-11T20:35:15Z aeth: flip214: Well, the warnings are there for stuff in the CL package like (+ 3 "hi") directly.
2018-05-11T20:36:15Z flip214: aeth: hmmm, I'm fairly sure it did derive function arguments as well
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2018-05-11T20:39:13Z aeth: Oh, and looking into all of this, there's apparently something called 'flycheck' in Emacs (like 'flyspell', I guess), but it doesn't look like it has SLIME/CL integration even though there are dozens of languages for it in M-x package-list-packages.
2018-05-11T20:40:32Z mercourisj: aeth: you've never heard of flycheck? are you not an emacs user?
2018-05-11T20:40:46Z aeth: mercourisj: I use Emacs for CL
2018-05-11T20:41:05Z mercourisj: aeth: Huh, I thought you were a full time emacs user, my bad
2018-05-11T20:42:04Z aeth: Does SBCL's linter-like functionality have any integration with flycheck or something like it?
2018-05-11T20:42:14Z mercourisj: yeah, it definitely does
2018-05-11T20:42:24Z mercourisj: when you type in lisp that has errors, it will tell you
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2018-05-11T20:42:54Z mercourisj: not like flycheck, but upon compilation
2018-05-11T20:43:00Z mercourisj: you can also then jump to different errors
2018-05-11T20:43:07Z aeth: yes, I'm aware of that
2018-05-11T20:43:18Z mercourisj: are you looking sort of for like "live" checking?
2018-05-11T20:43:18Z aeth: And compilation is so fast I guess it's normally not an issue
2018-05-11T20:43:46Z aeth: mercourisj: Yes because a lot of the checking only works on C-c C-k, not C-c C-c, and I am just too muscle memoried into doing the latter.
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2018-05-11T20:44:30Z mercourisj: here's a list of supported flycheck languages: http://www.flycheck.org/en/latest/languages.html#flycheck-languages
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2018-05-11T20:44:49Z mercourisj: Common Lisp does not appear to be in that list
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2018-05-11T20:45:31Z mercourisj: here is an issue about it: https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/issues/1369
2018-05-11T20:47:17Z aeth: I wonder if the recommended sblint does what I speculated about earlier here, which is turning on sb-ext:*derive-function-types* and then doing some full-application static type check (if that's even possible without combining them in one file) with that on.
2018-05-11T20:47:35Z aeth: Because I think something like that is the only static checking anyone would need in CL
2018-05-11T20:47:45Z aeth: And it's almost entirely built into SBCL
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2018-05-11T20:48:35Z mercourisj: well, one might want some other static checking
2018-05-11T20:48:39Z dlowe: I'd be happy with something like that which ran on the whole image
2018-05-11T20:48:43Z mercourisj: like for example, malformed parenthesis
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2018-05-11T20:48:59Z mercourisj: I know you can use smartparens, but it would be interesting to have it built into a linter
2018-05-11T20:49:14Z mercourisj: maybe some stylistic rules as well
2018-05-11T20:49:24Z aeth: or unreachable code, which 95% of the time means there's a logic error somewhere that makes some branch unreachable that should be reachable
2018-05-11T20:49:43Z mercourisj: yeah, that would be also cool to have
2018-05-11T20:49:47Z mercourisj: bottom line would be, it would be cool to have
2018-05-11T20:49:51Z aeth: (...and 5% of the time is a typecase on floats in the order of single-float double-float short-float long-float)
2018-05-11T20:49:53Z mercourisj: it would make lisp feel just a little bit more dynamic
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2018-05-11T20:53:15Z aeth: and it's definitely possible to unbalance parens even with something like paredit if you do commenting/uncommenting of regions of code, or other actions on selections of regions
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2018-05-11T21:12:30Z aeth: Oh, this is a bit entertaining. It seems like sb-ext:*derive-function-types* derives a function type to be t if you use check-type in the function... because the program will be valid for any input at runtime after you provide it with the correct type if there's a runtime type error!
2018-05-11T21:14:07Z mercourisj: that makes sense
2018-05-11T21:14:08Z aeth: This makes some sense because iirc check-type and type declarations are mutually exclusive in SBCL. If you declare a type, it will delete the check-type (or at least the part of it that runs for invalid types) as unreachable.
2018-05-11T21:15:15Z aeth: s/derives a function type to be t if you use check-type in the function/derives a function variable foo's type to be t if you use check-type on foo in the function/
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2018-05-11T21:22:41Z aeth: Oh, there's at least one common thing that SBCL does not afaik detect: unused imports. Possibly because one-package-per-file is an uncommon style and most things are done on a per-file basis.
2018-05-11T21:24:18Z Bike: how could it detect that? it's not like the package is over after the file
2018-05-11T21:26:28Z aeth: It could maybe be an optional (turn-off-able) warning if a symbol that is explicitly imported via :import-from or a package is not used in any files of a given package, though. Technically, could be valid anyway, but in practice, someone probably forgot to remove it
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2018-05-11T22:06:18Z stara: Hi, how compute x^3-2x^2-9x+18=0 Cardano's formula?
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2018-05-11T22:14:48Z aeth: stara: Solve for x in a given cubic function? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_function#General_formula
2018-05-11T22:16:07Z aeth: It's fairly straightforward to solve things given a formula (although I've only done this for quadratic, not cubic). There's probably a fancy, more-correct way to implement it because of how floating point works, though.
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2018-05-11T22:17:31Z stara: aeth, my result is: p=-31/3 and q=308 ; Did I good compute this?
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2018-05-11T22:19:20Z aeth: stara: It's probably a good idea to use Wolfram-Alpha to check your program with some test inputs when you're working with equations that it can solve. https://www.wolframalpha.com/
2018-05-11T22:19:27Z aeth: Or some other independent implementation
2018-05-11T22:20:16Z stara: OK, but I can't compute this, get out wrong result.
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2018-05-11T22:22:30Z stara: I substitute data for this formula: https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/4d91448198219ff6936ccd3063cc9cb4bb3740fe , but wrong result.
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2018-05-11T22:24:08Z aeth: Ah, I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_function#Cardano's_method
2018-05-11T22:24:18Z aeth: stara: You should probably post your source somewhere and someone here can find the mistake
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2018-05-11T22:27:07Z aeth: (a pastebin service somewhere)
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2018-05-11T22:29:15Z stara: https://image.ibb.co/nhHNQd/wrongprobably.png
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2018-05-12T02:01:43Z Beepy: Is a dotted pair considered a valid list?
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2018-05-12T02:02:55Z White_Flame: it will pass LISTP
2018-05-12T02:03:13Z White_Flame: but I don't think "valid list" is a specific term in the spec
2018-05-12T02:03:49Z White_Flame: whereas it wouldn't be a "proper list", because it's dotted.  (unless the cdr of the dotted pair was NIL or another list)
2018-05-12T02:04:18Z Beepy: Would you consider it a sequence?
2018-05-12T02:04:24Z Bike: it is not a sequence.
2018-05-12T02:04:33Z Bike: though it's of type sequence, i t hink
2018-05-12T02:04:34Z Bike: confusing, yes
2018-05-12T02:05:02Z White_Flame: the type LIST only really tests for consp or null, regardless of what the tail of the cons chains into
2018-05-12T02:05:20Z White_Flame: but that doesn't mean that it'll fly regarding sequence operations, if it's improper
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2018-05-12T02:05:56Z Bike: ah, there's "sequence" and "proper sequence", makes sense
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2018-05-12T02:06:20Z White_Flame: "In general, lists (including association lists and property lists) that are treated as sequences must be proper lists. "
2018-05-12T02:06:32Z White_Flame: from 17.1.1
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2018-05-12T02:07:23Z White_Flame: and yeah, going through the sequences dictionary, the sequence arguments are always "a proper sequence"
2018-05-12T02:07:38Z White_Flame: "proper sequence n. a sequence which is not an improper list; that is, a vector or a proper list. "
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2018-05-12T02:08:32Z White_Flame: of course, there are some sequence operations like MEMBER that will stop when they find an element, so they won't break if the ending is improper
2018-05-12T02:08:49Z White_Flame: that is, if they do early-exit
2018-05-12T02:09:46Z Beepy: Would you consider that a bug?
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2018-05-12T02:10:25Z White_Flame: no, I'd say that you're hiding your own bug if you go down those code paths
2018-05-12T02:10:26Z Bike: not erring? no
2018-05-12T02:10:52Z Bike: it's actually a specifically mentioned possibility
2018-05-12T02:10:55Z Bike: clhs 1.4.2
2018-05-12T02:10:55Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2018-05-12T02:11:05Z Bike: under "should be prepared"
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2018-05-12T03:37:54Z aeth: In SBCL, I get a style warning, but it works (i.e. prints the elements)... until it gets to the end and then it errors: (dolist (foo '(1 2 3 4 . 5)) (format t "~A " foo))
2018-05-12T03:38:28Z aeth: same here: (map nil (lambda (foo) (format t "~A " foo)) '(1 2 3 4 . 5))
2018-05-12T03:38:35Z aeth: i.e. 1 2 3 4 ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: LIST datum: 5>.
2018-05-12T03:39:22Z aeth: Except in the second one it doesn't print a style warning to the REPL
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2018-05-12T03:44:04Z aeth: That's what you would expect if you want performance, by the way.
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2018-05-12T05:51:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-12T06:04:05Z p0a: Hello
2018-05-12T06:04:15Z p0a: I am trying to write some news software that makes reading news from reddit quicker
2018-05-12T06:04:24Z p0a: I want also want it to have archiving capabilities
2018-05-12T06:04:47Z p0a: so far I wrote something using drakma and plump. Drakma retrieves the pages and plump is used to find the news titles
2018-05-12T06:05:22Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-05-12T06:05:27Z p0a: my issue is that reddit has everything in 1 line, making it hard to read the HTML to track down the relevant information. What should I do?
2018-05-12T06:07:53Z Beepy: p0a, maybe pipe the 1 line into an HTML formatter so you can read it.
2018-05-12T06:09:35Z Beepy: Anyone know where to submit a patch for SBCL?
2018-05-12T06:10:36Z p0a: Beepy: another issue is that I am not sure how to extract the important information
2018-05-12T06:11:04Z p0a: For example, I've noticed that the news articles have an attribute in <a> that other links don't have, but in general it is pretty cumbersome to extract exactly what I need every time
2018-05-12T06:11:09Z p0a: is that simply unavoidable?
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2018-05-12T06:12:41Z Beepy: I'm not sure. I don't touch HTML at all.
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2018-05-12T06:13:00Z p0a: hehe
2018-05-12T06:13:14Z p0a: yeah it's pretty horrible
2018-05-12T06:13:32Z p0a: Do you want to see the code I have so far? it's nifty
2018-05-12T06:14:10Z Beepy: Sure
2018-05-12T06:17:45Z p0a: https://pastebin.com/t7YNsDyq
2018-05-12T06:18:40Z Beepy: You can throw all of the quickload stuff into a list '(:drakma :plump ...)
2018-05-12T06:18:40Z p0a: so it's pretty silly in what it does but the use is... you type (news) to get the frontpage news for the subreddits in the global var, and then you type (myread "worldnews") to read the titles of worldnews
2018-05-12T06:18:54Z p0a: oh that's nic e
2018-05-12T06:19:31Z Beepy: In get-sub, you use let*. Use a let there.
2018-05-12T06:19:43Z p0a: but p uses s?
2018-05-12T06:19:52Z Beepy: Oh yeah,
2018-05-12T06:19:57Z Beepy: the indentation got me off
2018-05-12T06:20:02Z Beepy: are you using spaces?
2018-05-12T06:20:17Z p0a: I think it's out-of-the-box emacs lisp-mode
2018-05-12T06:20:24Z p0a: I don't know what pastebin.com did
2018-05-12T06:20:39Z p0a: looks like I'm using tabs
2018-05-12T06:22:53Z p0a: well anyhow, thanks for the advice! I'll keep working on this some other time
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2018-05-12T06:25:14Z MichaelRaskin: p0a: maybe look whether something like closure-css could be useful — you might be able to find someone who has written CSS selectors for that, and also Reddit's own CSS might be a hint. In general, data extraction from HTML has some amount of inherent (unless you control the other side…) complexity.
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2018-05-12T06:54:35Z beizhia: Anyone have any recommendations for a tool to set up a common lisp project?
2018-05-12T06:55:09Z beizhia: I see cl-project, quickproject, and eazy-project on quicklisp
2018-05-12T06:55:35Z akkad: asdf
2018-05-12T06:56:30Z beizhia: that's what I'm trying to use, but failing somewhat >_<
2018-05-12T06:57:23Z beizhia: just trying to rig a single file and a some unit tests for it
2018-05-12T06:59:46Z Beepy: beizhia, what problem are you running into?
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2018-05-12T07:02:00Z beizhia: well tbh, I dont really know where to begin. Should I make a separate asdf package for my tests? And do I need to symlink my project's dir in ~/common_lisp so asdf will find it?
2018-05-12T07:03:13Z beizhia: I think I might just be a bit spoiled by languages that set up the project structure for you, somewhat new to non-emacs lisp too. I just cant figure out what the normal thing to do it.
2018-05-12T07:03:31Z Beepy: So you use defsystem
2018-05-12T07:03:41Z Beepy: Let me find an example for you
2018-05-12T07:03:58Z beizhia: an example would be sweet
2018-05-12T07:04:33Z beizhia: been trying to find some on github
2018-05-12T07:04:45Z Beepy: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md
2018-05-12T07:05:34Z beizhia: ooooh asdf knows about tests, I missed that
2018-05-12T07:07:06Z beizhia: I think this is just what I needed Beepy, thanks!
2018-05-12T07:07:15Z Beepy: Yep
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2018-05-12T10:09:10Z jmercouris: White_Flame: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp?
2018-05-12T10:10:29Z jmercouris: minion: memo for White_Flame: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp that you can point me to?
2018-05-12T10:10:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell White_Flame when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-05-12T10:10:44Z jmercouris: what happens if you make a memo for minion itself?
2018-05-12T10:10:57Z jmercouris: and the content of your memo was "memo for minion"
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2018-05-12T10:20:47Z _death: see: genetic programming
2018-05-12T10:22:11Z _death: in particular http://www.genetic-programming.org/gplittlelisp.html and https://jorgetavares.com/2017/05/03/gp-code-on-github/
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2018-05-12T11:09:13Z jmercouris: _death: I saw the first source before but was put off from the lack of indentation
2018-05-12T11:09:24Z jmercouris: I'll load it into emacs and indent it so I can have a proper read
2018-05-12T11:09:53Z jmercouris: This is pretty cool (https://github.com/jorgetavares/mini-gp) thanks
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2018-05-12T20:39:28Z Xof: in years gone by, this channel would be a hotbed of eurovision discussion
2018-05-12T20:39:29Z Xof: I feel old
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2018-05-12T20:45:28Z pjb: Xof: nowadays, there's #lispcafe for that.
2018-05-12T20:45:54Z aeth: There was a huge push to keep this channel on topic a few years ago.
2018-05-12T20:45:57Z aeth: iirc.
2018-05-12T20:46:07Z aeth: It is now very on-topic.
2018-05-12T20:46:52Z aeth: Every now and then there's an extensive off-topic discussion that ends abruptly with "go to #lispcafe" and then I check #lispcafe for the continuation and it was not continued there.
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2018-05-12T20:48:03Z pjb: Of course, the "go to #lispcafe" instruction arrives too late, and not everybody is there too.
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2018-05-12T20:51:52Z on_ion: heh its basically "we dont want your kind here"
2018-05-12T20:52:23Z pjb: No, it's really the want to stay on topic here.
2018-05-12T20:52:24Z on_ion: anyone currently active in a convo can see the suggestion to 'go to #lc' , but most of us kind gentleman take that as a hint that we are Wrong.
2018-05-12T20:52:28Z on_ion: or in the wrong place
2018-05-12T20:52:30Z pjb: We've got a very bad example with #emacs.
2018-05-12T20:52:55Z pjb: There it's almost impossible to have an emacs question answered, it's drown into off topic talk, almost all the time.
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2018-05-12T20:53:07Z on_ion: we could say something like "lets filter all the non-lisp stuff out into #lispcafe, but please, for heaven's sake, let the lisp things remain here as well"
2018-05-12T20:53:26Z pjb: Yes, of course, the worst, is when people talk CL in #lispcafe…
2018-05-12T20:53:30Z on_ion: hm i find #emacs hardly noisy enough to miss anything \
2018-05-12T20:53:34Z on_ion: heh
2018-05-12T20:54:23Z on_ion: on another facet, i feel kind of powerful or important or special to have 4 lisp channels , actually 7, and at most one for anything else
2018-05-12T20:54:58Z pjb: :-)
2018-05-12T20:55:10Z on_ion: #lisp ##lisp #lispcafe #lispgames #ecl #sbcl ; aside from the last three which have their own cliques and themes, sometimes its hard to tell what comes from where or what goes to where. and to who and etc..
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2018-05-12T21:02:56Z aeth: I was in ##lisp and #lispweb but left them years ago because they're kinda dead and I'm in too many channels (20ish)
2018-05-12T21:03:29Z aeth: I am also in #clnoobs which very often is a bunch of Lisp veterans talking about deep details of the language.
2018-05-12T21:06:17Z pjb: ok, perhaps we could keep a single room, but it would have to be a bigger room, so that each conversation could occur independenty, in a different corner of the window.
2018-05-12T21:06:29Z pjb: We'd need a new irc client.
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2018-05-12T21:07:41Z pjb: Somebody invented Second Life for this…
2018-05-12T21:07:57Z pjb: Perhaps we should open a Second Life lisp room?
2018-05-12T21:08:05Z aeth: no
2018-05-12T21:08:11Z aeth: recreate the concept in Lisp
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2018-05-12T21:08:24Z aeth: Except people still won't use it because it won't be pure Lisp because it will have to FFI into OpenGL and something like SDL
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2018-05-12T21:18:51Z ebrasca: whe can implement someting like OpenGL in pure common lisp.
2018-05-12T21:19:38Z aeth: The best bet would be Mezzano and the author, when questioned here a while back, said something along the lines that Vulkan is possible but OpenGL is basically too complicated.
2018-05-12T21:20:24Z ebrasca: Yea he have said that.
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2018-05-12T21:28:52Z edgar-rft: Let's wait a while until Vulkan becomes more complicated than OpenGL
2018-05-12T21:29:26Z on_ion: and then one of those things change, now CL is out dated
2018-05-12T21:29:49Z on_ion: one cannot simply ask nvidia for lisp opengl drivers for legacy chipsets for eg.
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2018-05-12T21:32:30Z pjb: there's cl-cuda.
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2018-05-12T21:40:35Z ebrasca: You can allways ask for someting.
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2018-05-12T21:46:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: But what about what Mr Penguin said?
2018-05-12T21:46:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: OpenCL would be more usable.
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2018-05-12T22:48:19Z fittestbits: Hi, is there a preferred common lisp library for generating UUIDs?
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2018-05-12T23:28:34Z bugrum: Hi, I'm interested in making a Quicklisp private repository and I haven't seen much documentation related to doing this. After some googling I have found a project called Quickdist that seems to do it, but I don't know if it follows the exact structure of what would be considered a proper Quicklisp private repo (i.e something that someone can use the ql client to just point to grab the projects). is the Quicklisp-controller pro
2018-05-12T23:28:34Z bugrum: ject a good starting point to look into this?
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2018-05-13T02:35:50Z fraktor: I'm writing a program that, depending on an argument, should switch either the x or y component of a vector that I'm storing in a cons cell. What's the best way to do this? Could I pass in an atom like 'x or 'y?
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2018-05-13T02:37:25Z White_Flame: it could be a boolean, too
2018-05-13T02:37:25Z minion: White_Flame, memo from jmercouris: any examples of tree based GA in Lisp that you can point me to?
2018-05-13T02:38:09Z fraktor: If I wanted to pass in an atom like 'x or 'y, how would I do that? I tried using an if and eq, but that didn't work.
2018-05-13T02:38:30Z White_Flame: that's not a sufficient enough explanation of what didn't work
2018-05-13T02:39:01Z fraktor: Fair enough. I'll post a paste.
2018-05-13T02:39:06Z White_Flame: (defun foo (var) ...)  if you call it via (foo 'x), then a (if (eq var 'x) ...) should work
2018-05-13T02:39:15Z White_Flame: inside the body of foo
2018-05-13T02:39:24Z fraktor: Interesting... that's what I did.
2018-05-13T02:39:50Z White_Flame: you also need to be aware of packages
2018-05-13T02:40:06Z White_Flame: if your 'x in the caller is cl-user::x, and your 'x in FOO's source code is my-project::x or something
2018-05-13T02:40:32Z fraktor: No packages. I'm still learning basic lisp.
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2018-05-13T02:45:11Z White_Flame: minion: memo for jmercouris: there are little examples via google, but you'd have to customize and figure out what sort of code mutations you want
2018-05-13T02:45:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-05-13T02:47:02Z fraktor: So I've got my program working, but it's ugly as sin.
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2018-05-13T02:47:29Z fraktor: I've got one recursive function, and I can't really think of a good way to break it down.
2018-05-13T02:48:21Z fraktor: If I posted a paste, would you be willing to help me figure it out?
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2018-05-13T02:59:40Z White_Flame: sure, but recursive functions are usually fine
2018-05-13T03:00:01Z White_Flame: often times, I end up having a recursive function inside a toplevel funcction for my loop, via LABELS
2018-05-13T03:00:11Z White_Flame: also, probably better to post in #clnoobs than here
2018-05-13T03:00:44Z fraktor: Perfect! I didn't know there was such a channel.
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2018-05-13T03:51:00Z pierpa: fraktor: in this case I would use keywords, such as :x :y and an ECASE for discrimintating between them.
2018-05-13T03:51:23Z pierpa: discriminating, even
2018-05-13T03:52:53Z clintm: If I have a class that uses a metaclass and I want to make a subclass of it, is it correct to also set the metaclass of the subclass?  Have I missed something about mop and there's a way for the metaclass to follow into subclasses?
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2018-05-13T03:53:48Z clintm: I guess a code example would be 100% better than that question.
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2018-05-13T03:53:58Z Bike: you have to specify the metaclass, yes.
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2018-05-13T03:54:11Z clintm: ok, awesome.
2018-05-13T03:54:15Z clintm: thanks, Bike
2018-05-13T03:54:16Z Bike: this is because you can have a class with one metaclass be a subclass of a class of a different metaclass.
2018-05-13T03:54:30Z clintm: oh, of course.
2018-05-13T03:55:57Z pierpa: fraktor: also, I would represent vectors with vectors (duh). and then use an integer index instead of :x and :y
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2018-05-13T04:44:44Z loke: Hello
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2018-05-13T04:45:11Z loke: I have a design conundrum
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2018-05-13T05:43:45Z phoe: loke: hm?
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2018-05-13T06:26:18Z loke: phoe: Oh hello phoe
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2018-05-13T06:31:35Z phoe: hey loke
2018-05-13T06:32:36Z loke: My problem was that I am building a generalised configuration system, and I need a way to configure the system (like what backend provider to use, etc) before the packages have been loaded. This is because the configuration needs to go in .sbclrc for example
2018-05-13T06:33:06Z loke: So, I see two solutions: One is to set variables in CL-USER that the config system can access once it's loaded
2018-05-13T06:33:19Z loke: Or, I can use symbol-plists on some specific keywords
2018-05-13T06:33:27Z loke: I am exploring the second option right now.
2018-05-13T06:34:10Z loke: It's a bit ugly though, because in order to specify the class to use for the backend storage engine, I have to give th eclass name as two strings; package and symbol name of the class
2018-05-13T06:34:19Z loke: It's ugly, but I can't think of a better solution.
2018-05-13T06:34:50Z White_Flame: I have functions in my .sbclrc which set up config for my interactive environment
2018-05-13T06:34:59Z White_Flame: specifically via defun that I can call in slime
2018-05-13T06:35:37Z White_Flame: I also have a simple image-builder, which those scripts tend to use, which performs toplevel mutating steps (like loading in libs and changing readtables before loading more) that I can either use in SLIME or to build executable images
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2018-05-13T06:36:01Z loke: White_Flame: This is a generic system though, and I don't want to load packages unless you run an application that needs them.
2018-05-13T06:36:22Z White_Flame: yeah, this system is generic.  It's based on a propfile which basically lists what commands to run when
2018-05-13T06:36:31Z loke: So Climaxima for example needs a way to find out what font size to use. This value should be provided by the config system.
2018-05-13T06:37:00Z White_Flame: and I specifically do not LOAD it, because that would scope some of the mutations, and I read/eval forms one by one so taht changes to the reader (like available packages) can happen between lines, allowing plain package:symbol references to work later in the file
2018-05-13T06:37:30Z loke: So somehow, in my .sbclrc I need to tell the config system what storage engine to use (i.e. plain files) and also tell that storage engine its configuration (i.e. the path where the prfs should be saved). I need to provide this configuration _before_ the pref system has been loaded
2018-05-13T06:38:08Z White_Flame: can't you just load the system and then configure it?
2018-05-13T06:38:32Z loke: White_Flame: No. You need to be able to set the configurations, but the system itself may never ben loaded.
2018-05-13T06:38:41Z loke: If it's not loaded, those values are not used of course.
2018-05-13T06:38:43Z White_Flame: what drives that requirement?
2018-05-13T06:39:18Z loke: White_Flame: The goal to make it generic. I can't force people to force load a system in their .sbclrc file just so that Climaxima can save its config.
2018-05-13T06:40:05Z White_Flame: well, I don't understand Climaxima's needs specifically
2018-05-13T06:40:21Z loke: with my current solution, all you have to put in your .sbclsrc file is this: (setf (get :lisp-pref :provider) '(:file "/foo/bar/blah")) in order to configure the system
2018-05-13T06:40:32Z White_Flame: but a (ql:quickload "climaxima") (climaxima:set-config :foo :bar) to be runnable in some init file seems to make sense to me
2018-05-13T06:41:00Z loke: White_Flame: That's the thing, ther eis no init file. The phone purpose of the prefences sytsem is to make _everything_ configurable, even the init file location
2018-05-13T06:41:01Z White_Flame: you could probably also create a custom .asd for it, which depends on climaxima and then configures it
2018-05-13T06:41:21Z loke: White_Flame: Other applications, like Second Climacs would also use the same system
2018-05-13T06:41:30Z loke: So the prefs system can't depend on climaxima
2018-05-13T06:41:31Z White_Flame: the init file doesn't have to be in any special location.  You invoke it to set up your config
2018-05-13T06:41:42Z loke: White_Flame: RIght, and where do you put th eocnfig?
2018-05-13T06:41:46Z loke: "the config"
2018-05-13T06:41:51Z loke: That's my issue.
2018-05-13T06:41:52Z White_Flame: wherever you want.  It defines "holding teh config"
2018-05-13T06:42:10Z White_Flame: you point your config system at that file, and it loads & configures climaxima or whatever else you need
2018-05-13T06:42:14Z loke: White_Flame: WHo is "you"? In my case, the "you" is the user, not the author of the application.
2018-05-13T06:42:26Z White_Flame: sure
2018-05-13T06:42:35Z loke: White_Flame: The config system doesn't know where the file is. There may not even be a file.
2018-05-13T06:42:41Z White_Flame: I as the user set up an image definition file, which would load & configure stuff
2018-05-13T06:42:51Z loke: I can't rely on having a single config file
2018-05-13T06:42:57Z White_Flame: not a problem
2018-05-13T06:43:00Z loke: All I can rely on is things available in the image.
2018-05-13T06:43:08Z loke: So where in the image do I store this?
2018-05-13T06:43:11Z White_Flame: I guess I don't understand the specifics of your requirements and why a simple system wouldn't suffice
2018-05-13T06:43:31Z loke: White_Flame: The requirement is this:
2018-05-13T06:43:59Z loke: You need to be able to put the basic configration (like, config file locations, etc...) in the image
2018-05-13T06:44:02Z loke: Seocnd:
2018-05-13T06:44:17Z loke: This config should not cause issues if the config system is not available
2018-05-13T06:44:30Z White_Flame: what does the "image" entail here?
2018-05-13T06:44:34Z phoe: what do you mean, "if the config system is not available"?
2018-05-13T06:44:35Z loke: Third: Whatever config has been given should used when (and if) the config system is loaded
2018-05-13T06:44:45Z White_Flame: if you have an image, that image would contain the config system, right?
2018-05-13T06:44:57Z loke: phoe: Not available, meaning it's not there. Like in a plain instalaltion of SBCL
2018-05-13T06:45:10Z loke: White_Flame: No. this needs to work without a custom image.
2018-05-13T06:45:14Z loke: So, use case:
2018-05-13T06:45:22Z loke: 1) User downloads SBCL onto a blank system
2018-05-13T06:45:33Z loke: 2) Upser copies his old .sbclrc from some other system
2018-05-13T06:45:37Z loke: 3) User starts sbcl
2018-05-13T06:45:46Z loke: 4) This should not cause a crash
2018-05-13T06:46:02Z loke: 5) User loads climaxima, which has a dependency on lisp-pref
2018-05-13T06:46:18Z phoe: how do they load climaxima?
2018-05-13T06:46:21Z loke: 6) Lisp-pref initialises, and uses __only_ the information in the image to load all the other config
2018-05-13T06:46:29Z loke: phoe: (ql:quickload "climaxima")
2018-05-13T06:46:39Z phoe: so they have quicklisp installed, okay
2018-05-13T06:46:45Z loke: phoe: Not necessarily
2018-05-13T06:46:56Z loke: They may have downloaded it (and lisp-pref).
2018-05-13T06:47:04Z loke: So yes, after climaxima is loaded, lisp-pref is available.
2018-05-13T06:47:07Z phoe: loke: yes, they do, because otherwise there's no packagge QL to speak of
2018-05-13T06:48:01Z loke: phoe: Sure, but you can load climaxima using asdf:load-system as well. But I that what you're getting at is that lisp-pref is available after loading climaxima, and that is a correct assessment.
2018-05-13T06:48:18Z phoe: yep, I see.
2018-05-13T06:48:37Z White_Flame: in my .sbclrc, I have (defun project () (setf *load-image-interactively* #P"....") (load #P".../image-builder.lisp"))
2018-05-13T06:48:37Z loke: The core of my issue is that you need to provide basic configuration for the system before the system is available.
2018-05-13T06:48:55Z phoe: in your .sbclrc, create a new package called CLIMAXIMA/CONFIG that exports a single DEFVAR'd symbol.
2018-05-13T06:49:00Z loke: White_Flame: And in what package does the PROJECT function live?
2018-05-13T06:49:06Z White_Flame: cl-user
2018-05-13T06:49:19Z phoe: That symbol contains a plist or alist containing your basic config.
2018-05-13T06:49:33Z White_Flame: but, what to load & config is in the interacticaly loaded prop file, which can also be used from teh cmdline to create an executable image
2018-05-13T06:49:40Z loke: White_Flame: OK, so you are basically using what I proposed to be option 1 above: To have magic stuff in CL-USER
2018-05-13T06:49:52Z White_Flame: well, everything is in the prop file
2018-05-13T06:49:57Z loke: phoe: you are proposing a third option, to create a package in .sbclrc
2018-05-13T06:50:20Z White_Flame: when the image-builder is loaded, if the interactive var is set, it assumes it's in SLIME.  Else, it builds an executable image
2018-05-13T06:50:25Z loke: White_Flame: Of course, but this is about bootstrapping the system; to be able to tell it where that prop file is
2018-05-13T06:50:32Z phoe: loke: yep. that package can then be probed by CLIMAXIMA; if it does not exist yet, it is created and initialized with default values, otherwise the config is loaded from that package.
2018-05-13T06:50:33Z White_Flame: it's a parameter...
2018-05-13T06:50:45Z White_Flame: the location of the file is passed into the prop handling system
2018-05-13T06:50:58Z loke: phoe: Right. So it all comes down to having well-known information available to lisp-pref. Now we have three options:
2018-05-13T06:51:02Z loke: 1) Magic stuff in CL-USER
2018-05-13T06:51:10Z loke: 2) Magic stuff in keywords plists
2018-05-13T06:51:17Z loke: 3) Magic stuff in a new package
2018-05-13T06:51:27Z loke: My question is:
2018-05-13T06:51:34Z loke: Out of these three options, which one is the best?
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2018-05-13T06:51:38Z phoe: 1) sounds wrong for me because we do not want to pollute CL-USER with anything; it is a package available to the user.
2018-05-13T06:51:45Z phoe: 2) symbol plists should die.
2018-05-13T06:52:02Z loke: phoe: I agree with this two assememts
2018-05-13T06:52:15Z phoe: so, well, um
2018-05-13T06:52:24Z loke: Perhaps the magic package is the best...
2018-05-13T06:52:28Z loke: I never thought of that one.
2018-05-13T06:52:33Z phoe: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2018-05-13T06:52:48Z loke: Can you think of any other way to provide information to a nonexistent system?
2018-05-13T06:52:57Z White_Flame: magic files
2018-05-13T06:53:15Z phoe: you need a well-defined place from which that nonexistent system pulls data
2018-05-13T06:53:17Z phoe: no matter where it is, you must know where it is.
2018-05-13T06:53:18Z loke: (I guess I was thinking in terms of symbol plists because both Maxima and CLIM uses them so heavily)
2018-05-13T06:53:30Z loke: White_Flame: True... that is indeed a fourth option
2018-05-13T06:53:52Z phoe: or that
2018-05-13T06:53:56Z loke: White_Flame: It might not be a terrible one, but where wold you put it? It needs to do the right think on all OS'es
2018-05-13T06:54:11Z phoe: you could use a ~/.climaxima/ directory
2018-05-13T06:54:17Z loke: And if you want to make the file location configurable, you're back to the original question again when you decide how to confige it)
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2018-05-13T06:54:28Z phoe: clhs user-homedir-pathname
2018-05-13T06:54:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm
2018-05-13T06:54:30Z loke: phoe: That directly would not be popular on Windows.
2018-05-13T06:54:47Z White_Flame: there's also environment variables
2018-05-13T06:55:08Z loke: I guess some servings on #+windows, etc... one could build something that puts the config file in a reasonable lcoation on most environments.
2018-05-13T06:55:18Z loke: White_Flame: But there is no standard way to access those?
2018-05-13T06:55:29Z loke: There is commandline parameters as well
2018-05-13T06:55:30Z White_Flame: should be simple enough to support popular lisps
2018-05-13T06:55:38Z White_Flame: there aren't cmdline parameters if you're loading from slime
2018-05-13T06:55:41Z loke: White_Flame: Mmm... you have a point
2018-05-13T06:56:10Z loke: White_Flame: You are right
2018-05-13T06:56:12Z White_Flame: (well, I don't know if slime supports passing things to the inferior lisp.  I'm assuming you're loading your project from an already running SLIME connection)
2018-05-13T06:56:24Z loke: I mentioned commandline paramets because jackdaniel was very fond of th eidea.
2018-05-13T06:56:35Z loke: White_Flame: Correct.
2018-05-13T06:56:47Z loke: I wanted to be able to bootstrap everything from .sbclrc
2018-05-13T06:56:54Z White_Flame: I seem to be the only one left in the universe building executable images for deployment ;)
2018-05-13T06:57:02Z loke: White_Flame: I do.
2018-05-13T06:57:06Z White_Flame: \:D/
2018-05-13T06:57:08Z loke: White_Flame: Well, for one specific project
2018-05-13T06:57:34Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/tools/build_binary.sh
2018-05-13T06:57:41Z White_Flame: and of course, as an application server, it wants to continue building after the image has moved to another machine, which confuses the heck out of quicklisp and such
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2018-05-13T06:58:07Z loke: White_Flame: Oh, I never do that. I always build the binary on the system where it'll be running.
2018-05-13T06:58:13Z loke: Or, as part of a Docker container.
2018-05-13T06:58:26Z White_Flame: yeah, we're starting to get into docker
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2018-05-13T06:59:06Z loke: OK, I have to leave for a bit. back soon
2018-05-13T07:00:02Z White_Flame: sbcl --script lisp/image-builder.lisp lisp/image.prop || error "LISP BUILD FAILED"
2018-05-13T07:00:18Z White_Flame: so our system is generic, same image-builder and prop file loaded from slime to set up the environment
2018-05-13T07:01:06Z White_Flame: the image.prop does things like adds asdf dirs relative to the project, loads systems, evals toplevel stuff, etc
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2018-05-13T07:03:18Z White_Flame: I would still recommend that your system not pull from some generic config, but that your generic config stuff pulls in systems and configures them.  That way the systems don't need to be modified to benefit from the config
2018-05-13T07:03:43Z flip214: sjl: I've got a VLIME fix for you: github.com:phmarek/vlime
2018-05-13T07:04:11Z flip214: And I'm trying to accumulate all VLIME related things - if you know of other goodies in other repositories, please tell me.
2018-05-13T07:06:39Z loke: White_Flame and phoe: thanks for your insight
2018-05-13T07:07:12Z otwieracz: 4
2018-05-13T07:07:16Z otwieracz: SIvtXopseYBZZg
2018-05-13T07:07:36Z loke: I think I'll go for the config file approach, and store it in a logical location based on platform. I will them provide multiple ways to override the config file location, including both a commandline option and perhaps the plist
2018-05-13T07:07:47Z loke: So in 99% of cases, you never have to provide any bootstrap information
2018-05-13T07:08:15Z otwieracz: NOPASSWD: 
2018-05-13T07:08:19Z otwieracz: gpasswd -a sudo debian
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2018-05-13T07:11:26Z phoe: otwieracz: I think you did something that you did not want to
2018-05-13T07:11:47Z otwieracz: Pro tip: do not use „terminator” terminal emulator.
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2018-05-13T07:12:20Z otwieracz: Suddenly, everything I have typed in one instance ended up being typed in *every single running instance*.
2018-05-13T07:12:55Z phoe: holy cow, that's a pretty big bug
2018-05-13T07:13:46Z otwieracz: I was pretty surprised, looking into chat log with my friend „when did I typed „sudo -i” here…”… however, I apologized him, switched channels and WAT
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2018-05-13T07:19:55Z otwieracz: I believe this is a feature.
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2018-05-13T07:20:21Z otwieracz: Maybe I've enabled it with some weird keystroke.
2018-05-13T07:20:25Z otwieracz: but this is ridiculous…
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2018-05-13T07:52:46Z shka_: scymtym: just using you flamegraphs package
2018-05-13T07:52:57Z shka_: i can't emphasis enough on how cool it is
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2018-05-13T10:38:48Z LdBeth: otwieracz (IRC):  where does the „” thing come out
2018-05-13T10:39:39Z pjb: LdBeth: German typography.
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2018-05-13T10:53:44Z LdBeth: Get ✔️
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2018-05-13T12:16:41Z stara: Hi, how compute x^3-2x^2-9x+18=0 Cardano's method?
2018-05-13T12:17:25Z stara: I computed depressed cubic, my result: t^3-31t/3+308/27=0, good?
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2018-05-13T12:20:38Z phoe: stara: are you sure this is a #lisp question?
2018-05-13T12:22:38Z stara: phoe, not; but maybe somehow someo reply (will answer).
2018-05-13T12:23:38Z phoe: stara: this is off-topic. You'll have better luck asking on a math-oriented channel.
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2018-05-13T12:38:42Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2018-05-13T12:38:59Z LdBeth: Heya
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2018-05-13T12:41:21Z phoe: Hey beach
2018-05-13T12:43:00Z loke: Hello beach and phoe
2018-05-13T12:43:14Z loke: beach: I've been writing your document you wanted :-)
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2018-05-13T12:54:14Z phoe: Is the following valid Common Lisp?
2018-05-13T12:54:16Z phoe: (progn (defgeneric foo (bar)) (declaim (ftype (function (number) boolean) foo)))
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2018-05-13T12:55:45Z pjb: stara: (cardano 1 -2 -9 18) --> (#C(3.0 0.0) #C(-3.0 0.0) #C(2.0 -0.0))
2018-05-13T12:56:04Z random-nick: phoe: isn't progn on the toplevel handled specially?
2018-05-13T12:56:35Z phoe: random-nick: it is, all forms in a toplevel PROGN are toplevel as well.
2018-05-13T12:56:39Z pjb: stara: https://codeshare.io/GLA4R7
2018-05-13T12:57:24Z stara: pjb, thanks.
2018-05-13T12:57:25Z phoe: But my question maybe can be better worded as, can I DECLAIM FTYPE of a generic function?
2018-05-13T12:57:50Z Bike: sure.
2018-05-13T12:59:05Z phoe: then I guess I have found a minor annoyance in SBCL, unless I am wrong somewhere again. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/784#784
2018-05-13T13:00:54Z loke: phoe: Aren't you supposed to put the ftype proclaimation before defining the function?
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2018-05-13T13:01:56Z phoe: hm.
2018-05-13T13:02:13Z phoe: loke: same warning.
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2018-05-13T13:38:10Z Bike: there's a fixme in the source
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2018-05-13T13:42:33Z phoe: Bike: which file and line?
2018-05-13T13:42:49Z Bike: uh, pcl/boot.lisp 2320
2018-05-13T13:42:54Z Bike: my sources might be a little old though
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2018-05-13T13:45:45Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/pcl/boot.lisp#L2430 found it.
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2018-05-13T14:06:53Z beach: loke: Excellent!
2018-05-13T14:07:06Z loke: beach: I'll send you a draft
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2018-05-13T14:08:09Z beach: OK.  I am a bit busy at the moment.  Visiting family and such.
2018-05-13T14:08:31Z loke: OK, no need to read it now.
2018-05-13T14:08:42Z loke: A lot of things are still in flux.
2018-05-13T14:08:55Z loke: The separation between types and variables is still a bit fuzzy
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2018-05-13T14:22:10Z loke: beach: This is the current brain dump: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aaVZmegLT42ur17j7Vbtdh7auco7pmYN/view?usp=sharing
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2018-05-13T14:22:37Z loke: Here's the repository, but there isn't much in it: https://github.com/lokedhs/lisp-pref
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2018-05-13T14:25:07Z phoe: loke: your work partially overlaps with my PROTEST way of declaring configuration categories and configuration options.
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2018-05-13T14:26:49Z phoe: DEFINE-TYPE is not the best name because it directly clashes with CL:DEFTYPE. Maybe something more verbose like DEFINE-CONFIGURATION-TYPE?
2018-05-13T14:27:32Z phoe: :STRUCTURE :STRING is unclear to me. I don't yet get what it does, and also you missed a closing paren. (:
2018-05-13T14:28:56Z phoe: Using hash-tables is a better idea. Any list of non-null lists is a valid alist, and therefore you might avoid type confusion by using hashtables.
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2018-05-13T14:31:26Z phoe: So it is obvious that you don't want just a mere tree of valid lists, and instead you want an actual map from keys to values.
2018-05-13T14:31:39Z phoe: That's the stuff I've thought of so far.
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2018-05-13T15:19:36Z shka_: soooo, there is this successor to prove called rove
2018-05-13T15:20:04Z shka_: is it worth switching?
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2018-05-13T15:21:38Z comborico1611: Which word would you use to describe the difference between a Lisp REPL to that of all the other programming language REPLs?  I was thinking "memory".
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2018-05-13T15:26:37Z shka_: comborico1611: reader part
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2018-05-13T15:30:18Z comborico1611: shka_:  Hmm.  There may be more than one difference then.  I was thinking on the ability to load a function onto the REPL and then call it again.
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2018-05-13T15:33:46Z shka_: you can do it in python if you want
2018-05-13T15:33:52Z shka_: at least i think you can
2018-05-13T15:34:24Z shka_: but huge difference is that so called REPLs are not really read eval print loop
2018-05-13T15:35:23Z shka_: more like do-some-opaque-magic, eval-or-not, print, loops i think
2018-05-13T15:38:36Z comborico1611: Hmm.  What word would you use instead of "do some opaque magic"?
2018-05-13T15:38:50Z comborico1611: I'm just trying to solidify this difference with a word.
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2018-05-13T15:40:42Z shka_: comborico1611: i don't know, it just not read
2018-05-13T15:40:55Z phoe: comborico1611: integration of the REPL with the inspector, debugger, stepper and so on
2018-05-13T15:41:09Z shka_: there is no read in non-lispy languages
2018-05-13T15:41:09Z phoe: nowadays it isn't about the REPL itself, it's about how it integrates with everything else
2018-05-13T15:41:13Z phoe: ^
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2018-05-13T15:43:39Z shka_: anyway
2018-05-13T15:43:48Z shka_: comborico1611: try to implement REPL on your own
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2018-05-13T15:44:12Z shka_: in lisp it is literally read -> eval -> print and loop over it
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2018-05-13T15:44:35Z shka_: single line of code
2018-05-13T15:45:10Z shka_: in python or php, as i said, there is no read
2018-05-13T15:45:18Z shka_: i think you are supposed to eval strings
2018-05-13T15:45:49Z shka_: but in lisp, you are evaling lists
2018-05-13T15:46:04Z comborico1611: I see.  Thanks for the feedback!
2018-05-13T15:46:25Z shka_: well, more like symbolic expressions
2018-05-13T15:46:30Z Beepy: shka_, it looks like Rove is still by Eitaro Fukamachi, so it will probably replace Prove at some point.
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2018-05-13T15:47:01Z shka_: comborico1611: glad i could help
2018-05-13T15:47:30Z shka_: anyway, this is important characteristic of lisp
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2018-05-13T15:47:51Z shka_: homoiconicity starts here, really
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2018-05-13T15:50:08Z comborico1611: Hmm.
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2018-05-13T16:17:51Z phoe: Hah
2018-05-13T16:18:10Z phoe: I've only started to rewrite my old code using my new version of PROTEST and I'm already uncovering things that I should have done better back in the day
2018-05-13T16:18:32Z phoe: such as discovering that I have duplicated DEFGENERICs and I should instead create a new mixin
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2018-05-13T16:38:52Z shka_: hmmm
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2018-05-13T16:39:33Z shka_: phoe: yes, it is hard
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2018-05-13T16:42:23Z on_ion: protest? pro+test? mixin.. ?
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2018-05-13T16:43:54Z phoe: shka_: what is?
2018-05-13T16:44:08Z phoe: on_ion: PROTEST, my not-so-WIP-anymore library for defining protocols and test cases
2018-05-13T16:44:23Z on_ion: ah cool, figured =)
2018-05-13T16:44:30Z on_ion: i mean that is what i assumed about what it could be
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2018-05-13T16:46:31Z shka_: phoe: designing!
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2018-05-13T16:47:12Z phoe: shka_: yep, exactly
2018-05-13T16:47:27Z phoe: now the number is up to three mixins
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2018-05-13T16:47:42Z phoe: on_ion: a mixin is a superclass that is meant to be "mixed in" with other superclasses.
2018-05-13T16:48:14Z phoe: Geez, the Quicklisp version of BORDEAUX-THREADS is old.
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2018-05-13T16:59:53Z phoe: (IN-PACKAGE #:FOO) or (IN-PACKAGE :FOO)?
2018-05-13T17:02:03Z shka_: in-package #:foo
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2018-05-13T17:20:55Z loke: phoe: thanks for your comments.
2018-05-13T17:21:04Z loke: phoe: Do you have a link to your work?
2018-05-13T17:21:51Z phoe: loke: https://github.com/phoe/protest
2018-05-13T17:22:08Z phoe: We only overlap when it comes to configuration categories/entries.
2018-05-13T17:22:29Z loke: phoe: Got it
2018-05-13T17:22:41Z loke: phoe: I'll check it out
2018-05-13T17:22:50Z phoe: In PROTEST, a category is not particularly interesting - the category only really exists to be a reference for the programmer, and for having a docstring.
2018-05-13T17:22:59Z loke: (besides, protest is definitely somehting I need. Potato has already changed test frameworks once)
2018-05-13T17:23:11Z phoe: And a configuration entry is essentially what you describe - a value, accessed by a list of keywords.
2018-05-13T17:23:19Z loke: (or was it twice? :-)
2018-05-13T17:23:52Z loke: I have to go to sleep now. I'll check it later.
2018-05-13T17:24:47Z phoe: loke: PROTEST isn't an abstraction over different testing libraries. It still forces you to write tests in a given test library, but it provides mechanisms for generating test cases that are textual descriptions of tests, and therefore independent of given test implementations.
2018-05-13T17:24:51Z phoe: loke: sleep well!
2018-05-13T17:25:02Z loke: phoe: Oh i see :-)
2018-05-13T17:26:09Z phoe: loke: a library abstracting over multiple different testing framework would be a testing framework itself. And we already have enough of these.
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2018-05-13T17:56:58Z vtomole: chls comtran
2018-05-13T17:57:21Z vtomole: clhs comtran
2018-05-13T17:57:22Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for comtran.
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2018-05-13T18:03:28Z vtomole: clhs setg
2018-05-13T18:03:28Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for setg.
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2018-05-13T18:27:59Z vtomole: clhs truncate
2018-05-13T18:27:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
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2018-05-13T18:33:52Z Beepy: clhs nsubstitute
2018-05-13T18:33:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
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2018-05-13T18:49:58Z vtomole: Why does "(defparameter 1st '(a b c))  (nreverse 1st) (C B A)  1st " return "(A)" and not the reversed list?
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2018-05-13T18:51:08Z Bike: nreverse's side effects aren't particularly defined. it returns the reversed list.
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2018-05-13T18:59:42Z sjl: flip214: nice.  haven't seen anyone else using it that I know of
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2018-05-13T19:49:40Z White_Flame: comborico1611: the Lisp REPL has the full power of source code files.  Many other languages don't have that ability
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2018-05-13T20:14:25Z pjb: vtomole: it depends on the implementation.
2018-05-13T20:15:02Z pjb: vtomole: in any case, your code is not conforming twice!
2018-05-13T20:15:30Z pjb: vtomole: (defparameter 1st '(a b c))  (nreverse 1st)  (equalp 1st '(c b a))
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2018-05-13T20:16:05Z pjb: first (nreverse 1st) is not defined, because nreverse will try to mutate the literal (a b c) returned by quote.
2018-05-13T20:16:49Z pjb: then the mutation itself is not defined, so you can obtain any result for the third expression.
2018-05-13T20:17:22Z pjb: more precisely 1st will still be bound to the same cons cell, but the following cons cells (in the cdr chain), and the elements (in the cars) can be anything.
2018-05-13T20:18:10Z pjb: Notice that in clisp, (equalp 1st '(c b a)) returns true.
2018-05-13T20:19:41Z pjb: vtomole: the correct way to do something like that, if that's what you want to do, would be:
2018-05-13T20:19:41Z pjb: (defparameter *1st* (list 'a 'b 'c))  (setf *1st* (nreverse *1st*))  (equalp *1st* '(c b a))
2018-05-13T20:20:00Z pjb: 1- follow the earmuff conventions ALWAYS!
2018-05-13T20:20:08Z pjb: 2- don't mutate literal objects.
2018-05-13T20:20:19Z pjb: 3- use the result of mutating functions ALWAYS!
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2018-05-13T20:25:30Z vtomole: pjb: I could use setf with reverse instead. When would i ever need nreverse?
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2018-05-13T20:26:55Z Bike: i think you're confused about what nreverse does
2018-05-13T20:27:04Z Bike: it's just reverse, but also it's allowed to destroy the list
2018-05-13T20:27:13Z Bike: you use it in the same way, like (setf x (nreverse x))
2018-05-13T20:27:18Z Bike: you don't use it for its side effects
2018-05-13T20:27:37Z Bike: allowing it to destroy the list means it can be more efficient, is all
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2018-05-13T20:28:45Z pjb: vtomole: you would use nreverse when you don't need the original cons cells anymore.
2018-05-13T20:29:08Z pjb: (let ((direct (list 1 2 3))) (let ((rev (reverse direct)))  (list direct rev))) #| --> ((1 2 3) (3 2 1)) |#
2018-05-13T20:29:45Z pjb: (let ((rev (let ((direct (list 1 2 3))) (nreverse direct)))) rev) #| --> (3 2 1) |#
2018-05-13T20:30:23Z pjb: Using nreverse then may save allocating new cons cells.
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2018-05-13T20:31:50Z vtomole: Ah "more efficient". pjb Bike: Thanks
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2018-05-13T20:32:51Z pjb: vtomole: not more efficient.  If you use them when you should not, you will spend more time debugging your code than you will be able to recover ever in processing time.
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2018-05-13T20:38:00Z pjb: vtomole: basically, the only safe circumstances, is when you're mutating a list that you've just constructed, so you're sure there's no other references to these cons cells.  If you use it on function parameters, expect pain.
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2018-05-13T21:05:28Z Kundry_Wag: Hey, this question uses Clojure but I'm posting it here since it's actually applicable to any Lisp
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2018-05-13T21:05:34Z Kundry_Wag: I have a question about simulating certain aspects of a type system. There's a Clojure library called Schema that can (among other things) check the inputs of functions. For example, using Schema, one could define a Foo model - basically, a map that has some mandatory keys such as Bar and Baz. So if you define a function to have Foo as input, as in
2018-05-13T21:05:43Z Kundry_Wag: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo]
2018-05-13T21:05:43Z Kundry_Wag:   (do stuff))
2018-05-13T21:05:50Z Kundry_Wag: then when a-function is called, it'll check if the input matches the declared type.
2018-05-13T21:05:51Z Kundry_Wag: So far, so good.
2018-05-13T21:05:51Z Kundry_Wag: The thing is that if you get `obj` and, say, add other key and value to it with `assoc`, Schema won't complain, as it just checks `a-function` input:
2018-05-13T21:05:52Z Kundry_Wag: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo]
2018-05-13T21:05:54Z Kundry_Wag:   ;; won't complain
2018-05-13T21:05:56Z Kundry_Wag:   (assoc obj :not-allowed-key :some-value))
2018-05-13T21:05:58Z Kundry_Wag: That's because Schema can't just guess that the thing we are adding a key/value must remain a Foo (if that's our goal).
2018-05-13T21:06:00Z Kundry_Wag: My question is: is that assumption true? Is technically possible to create a library that if a modified obj is always a Foo inside the function? Perhaps using some magic macrology?
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2018-05-13T21:08:59Z Kundry_Wag: (sure such library could define a (typed-assoc), but that would be cheating :)
2018-05-13T21:09:14Z Kundry_Wag: (assoc is a Clojure function for adding key/value to a map)
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2018-05-13T21:13:35Z Bike: assoc /adds/ an association? that's confusing
2018-05-13T21:14:26Z Bike: (defn a-function [obj :- models/Foo] ...) means it takes one argument called obj, which is a Foo?
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2018-05-13T21:14:42Z Bike: you'd have to do some pretty fancy stuff, yeah, to essentially use a different function also named 'assoc'
2018-05-13T21:15:45Z Bike: given that you could use a nonconstant key, something would have to be prepared to check validity at runtime.
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2018-05-13T21:17:52Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: From the Clojure docs: `When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s).`. So if a-map is {:key1 :value1}, then (assoc a-map :other-key :other-value) would result in {:key1 :value1 :other-key :other-value}
2018-05-13T21:18:16Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Yeap, one argument obj, which is a Foo
2018-05-13T21:18:16Z Bike: i believe you, that's just not what it's like in lisp, and probably historically.
2018-05-13T21:18:53Z Kundry_Wag: Oh, sure, I was just curious if that would be technically possible
2018-05-13T21:20:24Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Oh, I see. If I understand correctly, the function definition (defn) could be a macro that would replace the built-in `assoc` to a different version of it
2018-05-13T21:20:40Z Bike: something along those lines.
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2018-05-13T21:21:13Z Bike: the trick is you'd have to do that for every possible way to make a new map
2018-05-13T21:21:38Z Bike: relatedly, given that clojure is actually making a new map, the assoc call isn't actually violating the restriction
2018-05-13T21:23:13Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Yeah, that makes sense
2018-05-13T21:23:44Z Bike: you'd want to define a-function's return type, or use something like lisp's THE to type the value
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2018-05-13T21:30:24Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: That's covered by Schema (in Clojure). I didn't know CL had a built-in way to do that, though
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2018-05-13T21:33:35Z Bike: and to be quite honest, rather than having 'alist but restricted to using these keys', i'd probably rather have a class
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2018-05-13T21:34:59Z on_ion: Classy Lisp
2018-05-13T21:35:03Z Bike: type stuff gets much easier if you restrict the possible restrictions to be easy stuff like that
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2018-05-13T21:42:20Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Sure. But it think that would be possible in CL because it can mutate the object from the class. Not sure how that would work in Clojure, where you usually apply a pure function and get a new obj, as you noted
2018-05-13T21:43:01Z Bike: does clojure not have structures or classes or something?
2018-05-13T21:44:52Z Kundry_Wag: It has records, which are somewhat analogous to classes: https://clojure.org/reference/datatypes#_deftype_and_defrecord
2018-05-13T21:45:00Z Bike: record type, sure.
2018-05-13T21:46:25Z p_l: isn't clojure's record type limited by Java OO model?
2018-05-13T21:46:58Z Bike: i'm not sure it has a predicate from skimming this
2018-05-13T21:48:35Z Kundry_Wag: Bike: Good question. I don't know
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2018-05-13T23:28:43Z comborico1611: I'm trying to find the connection to the word apropos, and its namesake function.  Any ideas?
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2018-05-13T23:29:46Z Bike: "pertinent"
2018-05-13T23:30:03Z Bike: it collects symbols that are, in a very simple sense, pertinent to your search strnig
2018-05-13T23:30:46Z comborico1611: Thanks!
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2018-05-14T01:24:36Z karlosz: anybody get slime working on clisp?
2018-05-14T01:24:50Z karlosz: it seems to want a newer asdf version
2018-05-14T01:25:00Z karlosz: (require "asdf") doesnt even work
2018-05-14T01:26:14Z akkad: did you download a newer asdf?
2018-05-14T01:26:25Z karlosz: ah, i got it working the moment i asked
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2018-05-14T01:26:43Z karlosz: i just needed to load uiop beforehand
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2018-05-14T01:31:22Z karlosz: okay, now quicklisp doesn't work on clisp :(
2018-05-14T01:31:47Z karlosz: something about QL-CLISP not existing
2018-05-14T01:32:22Z akkad: any reason for chosing clisp over sbcl?
2018-05-14T01:32:41Z Beepy: ^
2018-05-14T01:33:42Z karlosz: well, i'm going to work on clisp, first of all
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2018-05-14T01:34:15Z akkad: then perhaps some assembly might be required
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2018-05-14T01:34:53Z karlosz: nope
2018-05-14T01:35:14Z akkad: so it all works?
2018-05-14T01:35:23Z Bike: i think clisp ships a really old asdf
2018-05-14T01:35:33Z Bike: i remember people coming here asking about it
2018-05-14T01:35:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: clisp is just really old
2018-05-14T01:35:41Z Beepy: Its website says 2010 was the last update
2018-05-14T01:35:58Z karlosz: well, it looks like this particular issue was fixed in the latest commit to quicklisp
2018-05-14T01:36:15Z karlosz: clisp master was updated 2 weeks ago
2018-05-14T01:36:26Z karlosz: except a quicklisp release hasnt been made yet
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2018-05-14T01:40:47Z Beepy: karlosz, where are you seeing that it was updated?
2018-05-14T01:41:11Z karlosz: their version control
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2018-05-14T01:50:09Z clintm: Is clisp the one that gets updated by loading new code into a previous revs image?  I remember reading about a CL that did that as opposed to building a new image like sbcl.
2018-05-14T01:50:54Z Zhivago: You can build an image from a system built from an imace in sbcl.
2018-05-14T01:51:29Z Zhivago: I wouldn't recommend it these days. Image building is pretty much something that was useful until dynamic linkage became available.
2018-05-14T01:51:31Z Plazma: oh Zhivago you hang out in here too eh?
2018-05-14T01:52:12Z theemacsshibe[m]: image making is nice tbh, i use it to distribute lisp programs to non-lisp users
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2018-05-14T01:53:06Z Plazma: while not the same, smalltalk also uses images (that are pretty easy to build/strip down) which is a cool concept I think still, even if it's a bit dated
2018-05-14T01:53:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: ehh, it's like having a compiled binary from C IMO
2018-05-14T01:54:12Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's possible to mess (especially with -g) with but not as good as having sources
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2018-05-14T01:57:08Z Plazma: in a sense it reminds me also of the .app binaries mac uses
2018-05-14T01:57:18Z Plazma: mostly self contained
2018-05-14T01:57:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: fair enough
2018-05-14T01:57:34Z Plazma: well partially, guess it depends
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2018-05-14T02:08:50Z karlosz: clintm: clisp doesn't
2018-05-14T02:09:07Z karlosz: pretty much all the other common lisp in common lisps are though
2018-05-14T02:09:11Z karlosz: like CCL, CMUCL...
2018-05-14T02:09:17Z karlosz: sbcl is actually the exceotion
2018-05-14T02:09:39Z karlosz: its whole existence was ttying to move away from the CMUCL style build to the reproducible build we all know and love
2018-05-14T02:10:02Z clintm: ah, right, I must have been thinking of cmucl.  thank you, karlosz
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2018-05-14T02:22:49Z Ober: how far is Clasp from being usable as a primary implementation?
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2018-05-14T02:26:58Z Beepy: that's probably something to direct at drmeister
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2018-05-14T02:27:39Z Bike: depends on what you want ot do, i guess
2018-05-14T02:28:01Z akkad: "lisp stuff" haha
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2018-05-14T02:43:26Z Ober: will use QL to figure it out
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2018-05-14T03:03:08Z loke: Ober: I don't think QL qorks with Clasp.
2018-05-14T03:03:38Z Bike: sure it does
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2018-05-14T03:04:14Z loke: Bike: Oh it does? I tried it a few moenths ago, and back then Drmeister said it was planned but not working yet.
2018-05-14T03:04:40Z Bike: yeah, pretty sure it's fine
2018-05-14T03:04:44Z Bike: asdf works and network works
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2018-05-14T03:06:17Z Ober: it dies doing the install here
2018-05-14T03:06:40Z Bike: building clasp?
2018-05-14T03:07:20Z Ober: no, on the quicklisp-quickstart:install step
2018-05-14T03:07:35Z Ober: process ends, and with it any logs
2018-05-14T03:07:43Z Bike: it might not know about clasp's initfile, i guess
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2018-05-14T03:08:32Z Bike: guess i'll take a look tomorrow
2018-05-14T03:08:35Z Bike: i've never had any problems
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2018-05-14T03:08:53Z Ober: trying setup.lisp with an existing copy. using drmeisters docker image
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2018-05-14T03:12:44Z Ober: cool. that works
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2018-05-14T04:24:13Z aeth: Does anyone else use a macro as the way to access things to avoid potentially dozens of exports in a package? What I've been doing is a with-foo-accessors that places the accessor symbols in the package specified at the definition of that macro and also can add a prefix (for the case of structs with conc-name not set to nil).
2018-05-14T04:25:03Z aeth: I find that this greatly simplifies things because then I only need to export the with-foo-accessors macro and/or a macro that indirectly uses that macro.
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2018-05-14T04:26:59Z aeth: e.g. (with-foo-accessors ((foo foo)) foobar ...) would macroexpand to (with-accessors ((foo the-package-containing-foobar::foobar-foo)) foobar ...) in the most complicated case (where it's a struct with prefixed accessors)
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2018-05-14T04:39:31Z on_ion: aeth: neat =)
2018-05-14T04:40:31Z pillton: aeth: Yes, but not to avoid the number of symbols that are exported.
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2018-05-14T04:44:08Z aeth: My macro, in case anyone's curious: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/ec47910d88254d0c6a0e8c0a33aa33c7d4037513/util/util.lisp#L247-260
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2018-05-14T04:44:36Z aeth: destructuring-lambda is just a lambda that does a destructuring bind on its one argument. It's surprisingly common. In fact, I just now noticed the pattern in define-accessor-macro
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2018-05-14T05:02:31Z loke: aeth: What's with the INTERN calls in the macro?
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2018-05-14T05:09:43Z aeth: loke: Otherwise the macro will produce something whose API is (zombie-raptor/util/util::foo)
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2018-05-14T05:09:56Z aeth: (well, something along those lines)
2018-05-14T05:10:28Z loke: aeth: Can't you just use &environment ?
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2018-05-14T05:21:22Z aeth: How?
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2018-05-14T05:28:01Z loke: aeth: instead of your reader macro dance, just use (intern "FOO" env)
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2018-05-14T05:33:15Z aeth: loke: I use #.(symbol-name ...) pretty much everywhere instead of hardcoding the symbol as a string of upper case characters
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2018-05-14T05:38:49Z aeth: I know it's essentially pointless, but at least to me it feels better to not hardcode the assumption about the reader that will almost certainly be valid. Perhaps this could be turned into something more concise?
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2018-05-14T05:42:32Z aeth: But... I suppose I should be using &environment env instead of assuming intern without that argument would work correctly
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2018-05-14T06:23:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-05-14T06:28:00Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
2018-05-14T06:28:31Z clintm: Good morning, Beach!
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2018-05-14T06:29:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi beach
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2018-05-14T06:31:14Z loke: Yes?
2018-05-14T06:31:16Z loke: Oops
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2018-05-14T07:17:36Z hajovonta: hi
2018-05-14T07:17:41Z iqubic: Hey.
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2018-05-14T08:00:01Z scymtym: shka: glad you like it. but i have to learn more CLIM or get somebody to help out to make it less horrible to use
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2018-05-14T09:09:50Z shka: scymtym: yes, it is quite horrible to use, but again, It is exactly what i needed
2018-05-14T09:09:58Z shka: even if it could be done better
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2018-05-14T14:20:16Z loginoob: how come NIL is a list and also an Atom?
2018-05-14T14:20:30Z Xach: loginoob: history
2018-05-14T14:20:40Z loginoob: ok
2018-05-14T14:21:15Z jmercouris: it also makes sense intuitively, at least to me
2018-05-14T14:21:38Z jmercouris: an empty list has a value of NIL, but it is also sort of "indivisible", a smallest part, and therefore NIL
2018-05-14T14:21:45Z jmercouris: that's how I think of it mentally
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2018-05-14T14:22:48Z jmercouris: s/and therefore NIL/ and therfore an atom
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2018-05-14T14:24:18Z loginoob: jmercouris: so NIL does not consists cons cell
2018-05-14T14:24:47Z jmercouris: is that a question or a statement?
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2018-05-14T14:24:57Z loginoob: i am asking
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2018-05-14T14:25:39Z Bike: nil is not a cons.
2018-05-14T14:26:02Z loginoob: ok
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2018-05-14T14:32:12Z jmercouris: other than quickproject, is there something built into asdf to just dump a sample file?
2018-05-14T14:32:15Z jmercouris: like a default file?
2018-05-14T14:32:38Z Xach: jmercouris: I don't think so.
2018-05-14T14:32:52Z Xach: there are several projects that do things like quickproject
2018-05-14T14:32:55Z Xach: but nothing built into asdf
2018-05-14T14:33:08Z jmercouris: feels like a glaring omission
2018-05-14T14:33:35Z jmercouris: maybe too outside of the scope of asdf
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2018-05-14T14:36:44Z Xach: Some things are only glaring from specific perspective
2018-05-14T14:37:53Z jmercouris: yeah
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2018-05-14T14:51:29Z Beepy: Was clhs 17.1.1 added to address the sequence functions that don't require proper sequences?
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2018-05-14T14:54:23Z Bike: clhs 17.1.1
2018-05-14T14:54:23Z specbot: General Restrictions on Parameters that must be Sequences: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_aa.htm
2018-05-14T14:54:39Z Bike: i guess?
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2018-05-14T14:55:14Z Beepy: I wasn't sure becuase most sequence functions specify that they need a proper sequence while a small few just say sequence
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2018-05-14T20:55:57Z RebelCoderRU: Hi. Can anyone please help with installing/running lisp on Debian ? I have installed it on my Py and I need it to run a server wit the following command:
2018-05-14T20:55:58Z RebelCoderRU: (load "start")
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2018-05-14T20:56:17Z RebelCoderRU: But I get an error: pi@raspberrypi:~/gits/api $ (load "start")
2018-05-14T20:56:17Z RebelCoderRU: -bash: load: command not found
2018-05-14T20:56:37Z RebelCoderRU: Any help would be much appropriated
2018-05-14T20:57:04Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: ccl runs on RaspberryPi.
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2018-05-14T20:57:25Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2018-05-14T20:57:34Z pjb: (Linux ARM)
2018-05-14T20:57:50Z RebelCoderRU: I think it is in main reopos
2018-05-14T20:57:58Z RebelCoderRU: on the Pi
2018-05-14T20:58:14Z pjb: No, it cannot.  Because ccl can only be compiled by ccl, it cannot be included in debian distributions.
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2018-05-14T20:58:34Z RebelCoderRU: I have the ARM tar unzipped...
2018-05-14T20:58:55Z pjb: Then you have sbcl, clisp and ecl that should be able to run on Raspberry Pi.  Perhaps one of them might be in the distribution.  But I would download the sources and compile it myself anyways…
2018-05-14T20:59:39Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: then, you would have to run the CL implementation first, and give it expressions to evaluate once it's launched. You cannot do that at the bash REPL, you have to do it at the CL REPL!
2018-05-14T21:00:15Z RebelCoderRU: Hmm... never did this before....
2018-05-14T21:00:21Z RebelCoderRU: A bit confusing...
2018-05-14T21:00:36Z pjb: Something like: https://pastebin.com/CT4JccTL
2018-05-14T21:00:36Z RebelCoderRU: I will keep trying
2018-05-14T21:01:07Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: it's the same principle as with Python, ruby (irb), perl, or even bash.
2018-05-14T21:01:39Z RebelCoderRU: OK. Just need to find the way to install CLL now
2018-05-14T21:01:51Z pjb: ccl = Clozure CL, not CLL.
2018-05-14T21:02:19Z RebelCoderRU: Sorry, CCL , yes
2018-05-14T21:03:04Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: Whatever you do, you need to get your Lisp REPL first (the "prompt") rather than typing Lisp code directly in the shell :)
2018-05-14T21:03:11Z pjb: RebelCoderRU: you may also have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started for installation beyond the CL implementation. Ie. you may want to install quicklisp (the CL librarian), and a good editor for lisp such as emacs with slime and paredit.
2018-05-14T21:04:48Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: You might also want to join #clnoobs if you require a bit more handholding :)
2018-05-14T21:05:02Z RebelCoderRU: A-ha !
2018-05-14T21:05:09Z RebelCoderRU: Doing the quicklisp now....
2018-05-14T21:05:11Z RebelCoderRU: Thanks
2018-05-14T21:05:15Z antoszka: Cool.
2018-05-14T21:05:26Z antoszka: RebelCoderRU: What is the project you're trying to get running?
2018-05-14T21:05:45Z RebelCoderRU: I think I can do it without joining noobs...
2018-05-14T21:05:47Z RebelCoderRU: =))))
2018-05-14T21:06:03Z RebelCoderRU: A server for Turtl App
2018-05-14T21:06:16Z RebelCoderRU: Encrypted notes and stotrage...
2018-05-14T21:06:22Z RebelCoderRU: *storage
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2018-05-14T21:06:37Z antoszka: Oh cool, I didn't know there's something like that.
2018-05-14T21:06:46Z antoszka: Will probably run one myself too.
2018-05-14T21:07:57Z RebelCoderRU: Yeah. I was on Laverna, but devs dropped it. Found Turtl 2 days ago... Tried it on my Linux Box and Android - Amazing stuff.
2018-05-14T21:08:05Z RebelCoderRU: Looked at the source - defo good stuff.
2018-05-14T21:08:12Z RebelCoderRU: About to run my server on the Pi.
2018-05-14T21:08:46Z RebelCoderRU: RethinkDB was a bit of a pain to compile on the Pi though...
2018-05-14T21:09:04Z antoszka: I'll probably have more typical hardware to run it on.
2018-05-14T21:09:08Z RebelCoderRU: You have to get THE latest git branch and use clang compiler flag (info on the Git page)
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2018-05-14T21:09:38Z antoszka: k, thx
2018-05-14T21:09:47Z RebelCoderRU: I am OK with the Pi for now. But I feel I will need to move to a proper X86 mini server like a Dell/Lenovo Mini PCs
2018-05-14T21:09:54Z TMA: have you managed to (ql:quickload "cffi-libffi") on sbcl/windows? what arcane magicks are needed?
2018-05-14T21:10:43Z RebelCoderRU: TMA ? Who is this for ? We are talking Linux here..
2018-05-14T21:10:50Z RebelCoderRU: Who is your question for ?
2018-05-14T21:17:50Z TMA: RebelCoderRU: that's not in contect of the current conversation.
2018-05-14T21:18:13Z TMA: better put would be "has anyone managed ..."
2018-05-14T21:19:21Z TMA: or "anyone: have you managed..."
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2018-05-15T02:19:55Z ircquestion: Is lisp a religon?
2018-05-15T02:19:59Z ircquestion: Like that emacs?
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2018-05-15T02:21:57Z Bike: no, it's just that we computer people only dimly realize we get worked up about things that aren't really worth it, and compare it to religion to make ourselves feel smart
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2018-05-15T02:38:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: if you say it's a religion, it's a religion
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2018-05-15T04:24:19Z vtomole_: What is the machine codethat is generated by disassemble in SBCL?
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2018-05-15T04:26:26Z karlosz: your cpu's native instruction set
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2018-05-15T04:29:53Z vtomole: Oh i see I was just confused cause the 'Break' instruction is not in x86_64.. i don't think?  "(disassemble '(lambda (x) (* x x)))"  generates "BREAK 16" as the last instruction.
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2018-05-15T04:35:17Z karlosz: pretty sure its supposed to be BRK
2018-05-15T04:39:22Z vtomole: Yeah but that's not what i get: https://pastebin.com/s2cz94ik
2018-05-15T04:39:48Z aeth: They don't feed it into nasm or something. So they might have some syntax differences from what you're used to.
2018-05-15T04:42:13Z vtomole: Ah. SBCL has it's own assembler.
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2018-05-15T04:44:48Z aeth: Afaik, yes. I asked that question a while back.
2018-05-15T04:44:56Z vtomole: If x86 has "brk" but the compiler generates "break", does the compiler really generate x86 code?
2018-05-15T04:45:08Z aeth: I think ccl is similar. Its assembly is parenthesized and looks very Lispy.
2018-05-15T04:46:01Z aeth: vtomole: Do compilers that use AT&T syntax really generate x86 code? Because they're a lot further than SBCL's disassemble syntax.
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2018-05-15T04:46:46Z vtomole: Good point.
2018-05-15T04:46:52Z aeth: vtomole: It would be interesting to know if the differences were defined somewhere, though
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2018-05-15T08:11:54Z shrdlu68: Is there a one-stop-shop guide to creating FFI to C?
2018-05-15T08:12:12Z shrdlu68: I'm thinking of creating bindings to libselinux.
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2018-05-15T08:37:17Z p_l: shrdlu68: CFFI?
2018-05-15T08:37:26Z p_l: SWIG can generate CFFI code too
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2018-05-15T08:49:34Z TMA: SWIG CFFI generation is not that good unfortunately
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2018-05-15T08:53:31Z p_l: good enough to start
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2018-05-15T11:56:52Z jmercouris: So, I'm trying to write a survey collection programmer, trying to think of how to persist the data
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2018-05-15T11:56:59Z jmercouris: s/programmer/program
2018-05-15T11:57:09Z jmercouris: should I write to CSV? should I write to a database?
2018-05-15T11:57:36Z jmercouris: I am thinking of collect three types of data, boolean, string, and integer
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2018-05-15T12:03:57Z _death: sqlite..
2018-05-15T12:05:38Z jmercouris: yeah, sure sqlite is fine, but what would the table structure look like
2018-05-15T12:05:41Z jmercouris: I can't imagine a generalizable scheme
2018-05-15T12:06:09Z jmercouris: at least not without using a central table called like "survey" and it has some ID then another table related to it which has responsees
2018-05-15T12:06:19Z jmercouris: but then the only good way to actually view the data is to export it anyway
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2018-05-15T12:43:15Z schweers: jmercouris: Does your data fit in ram?  if so, you can just write sexps to a file.
2018-05-15T12:43:43Z jmercouris: schweers: data fits in ram yes, but it is part of a webapp, so I don't want to keep things in memory / connect to a repl
2018-05-15T12:43:46Z jmercouris: I'd prefer to persist to disk
2018-05-15T12:44:00Z jmercouris: of course I could always re-persist all the sexp on every write
2018-05-15T12:44:06Z schweers: which is why I said write sexps to a file.
2018-05-15T12:44:09Z jmercouris: when I say write I mean pushing to a list of survey responses or something
2018-05-15T12:44:17Z schweers: ah, okay, now I understand
2018-05-15T12:44:38Z schweers: well, then why not sqlite?
2018-05-15T12:44:56Z schweers: seems to be a reasonable way to deal with this sort of problem
2018-05-15T12:45:08Z jmercouris: yeah, but I like your SEXP idea more actually
2018-05-15T12:45:17Z jmercouris: I don't think it would be so unbelievably painful to just keep writing to disk
2018-05-15T12:45:23Z jmercouris: I don't expect more than 10 survey responses anyway
2018-05-15T12:45:31Z schweers: in total?
2018-05-15T12:45:37Z jmercouris: in a day
2018-05-15T12:45:49Z jmercouris: I hope to collect around 100 survey responses
2018-05-15T12:45:53Z jmercouris: so the data will not be large at all
2018-05-15T12:45:53Z schweers: sounds like an elisp macro may be fast enough :D
2018-05-15T12:46:20Z schweers: seems like it fits in a block per survey ;)
2018-05-15T12:46:24Z jmercouris: it would be, if I could just email the survey out to people, but I would like a website for them to be able to anonymously respond
2018-05-15T12:46:32Z schweers: err, per response
2018-05-15T12:47:49Z schweers: or just mmap a file and write directly to memory via CFFI :-P
2018-05-15T12:48:03Z jmercouris: sure, why not :D
2018-05-15T12:48:52Z schweers: one of the reasons I like lisp and its modern implementations so much: you can program at really high levels, but also muck about with stuff like that :)
2018-05-15T12:50:17Z pierpal: looks like a good case for a prevalence db. there's at least one implementation in cl, which I never tried, though
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2018-05-15T12:50:54Z schweers: Just for the record: there are also kyotocabinet bindings for lisp
2018-05-15T12:51:24Z schweers: but they are broken in some ways: getting the size of the store is not implemented, for instance
2018-05-15T12:52:34Z jmercouris: kyotocabinet?
2018-05-15T12:53:02Z schweers: http://fallabs.com/kyotocabinet/
2018-05-15T12:53:06Z schweers: basically a key value store
2018-05-15T12:53:21Z schweers: keys and values are both byte sequences
2018-05-15T12:53:26Z jmercouris: interesting, I would rather use neo4j for something like that
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2018-05-15T12:53:41Z jmercouris: mostly because of cypher
2018-05-15T12:53:46Z pierpal: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/
2018-05-15T12:54:22Z schweers: I’m looking at this right now: https://neo4j.com/
2018-05-15T12:54:35Z schweers: Seems like a horrible way to present a product
2018-05-15T12:54:54Z jmercouris: Don't worry about the presentation, that's irrelevant
2018-05-15T12:55:19Z schweers: also the “4j” part in the name gives me the willies.
2018-05-15T12:55:24Z jmercouris: also irrelevant
2018-05-15T12:55:29Z schweers: but maybe that’s just me
2018-05-15T12:55:41Z jmercouris: here is what makes neo4j great: https://neo4j.com/developer/cypher-query-language/
2018-05-15T12:55:56Z jmercouris: that and the performance
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2018-05-15T12:56:40Z schweers: hm, interesting
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2018-05-15T12:56:45Z schweers: looks a bit like sql for graphs
2018-05-15T12:57:50Z schweers: you convinced me: it may be worth looking at, should the need arise
2018-05-15T12:58:07Z schweers: but I don’t see how it relates to your question and kyotocabinet
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2018-05-15T12:58:31Z jmercouris: well, it's a really good key/value store
2018-05-15T12:58:43Z jmercouris: it's not purely a graph database
2018-05-15T12:59:58Z schweers: I assume that using it from a non-jvm process involves IPC of some sorts
2018-05-15T13:00:12Z schweers: which can be bad for performance, depending on what you do
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2018-05-15T13:01:00Z jmercouris: it's not so bad
2018-05-15T13:01:12Z jmercouris: I've used it from python with pretty good success
2018-05-15T13:01:21Z jmercouris: most of the time cost is in the actual database operations rather than the IPC
2018-05-15T13:01:33Z jmercouris: you do most of your logic in Cypher rather than handling it piecemeal and processing it in another language
2018-05-15T13:02:07Z jmercouris: so that reduces the overhead of information flow between the database and the program
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2018-05-15T13:11:26Z schweers: jmercouris: I guess you’re right, if you use that part of it.  I was concerned about using it as a plain old key/value store.
2018-05-15T13:12:09Z schweers: And if the only thing you do is put values in and retrieve them and do that alot, you may run into performance issues.  The question is of course: are you using the right tool for the job, if that is all you need?
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2018-05-15T13:14:08Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2018-05-15T13:14:30Z Bike: heyo.
2018-05-15T13:15:04Z beach: Great, when I am not on #lisp all the time, this is also when the tunes.org logs seem to be having problems.
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2018-05-15T13:20:32Z Murii: Can I delete an index from a vector?
2018-05-15T13:20:47Z loke: Murii: No.
2018-05-15T13:20:48Z beach: No.
2018-05-15T13:20:54Z loke: Well, you can manually rearrange it.
2018-05-15T13:20:58Z Murii: right
2018-05-15T13:21:00Z Murii: okay :)
2018-05-15T13:21:14Z beach: Murii: Then it would not be a vector.  It would be an "editable sequence".
2018-05-15T13:21:29Z beach: Or at least that's what I call it in my book.
2018-05-15T13:21:29Z Murii: thought so too but wanted to be 100% sure
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2018-05-15T13:22:10Z beach: Murii: But you can use Flexichain, a library that implements a version of editable sequences.
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2018-05-15T13:23:31Z Murii: beach-  what about hashmaps?
2018-05-15T13:23:44Z Murii: there it  makes sense to be able to remove a key,right?
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2018-05-15T13:24:15Z beach: Sure.
2018-05-15T13:24:51Z beach: But that is non a sequence like a vector is.  But maybe you don't need that.
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2018-05-15T13:25:09Z Murii: yes, I know that
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2018-05-15T13:33:44Z shka: well, you kinda can, but that would be linear time depending on size of the vector
2018-05-15T13:34:00Z shka: and vector would need to have fill-pointer
2018-05-15T13:34:06Z shka: or else you have to copy
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2018-05-15T13:44:07Z beach: Well, if it doesn't matter whether it is a sequence, you can do it in constant time, at least amortized.  You can copy the last element to the place you want to delete, and then "shorten" the vector by moving the fill pointer.
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2018-05-15T13:45:17Z shka: yes
2018-05-15T13:45:36Z shka: but you will not have order
2018-05-15T13:46:24Z beach: That's what I meant by it not being a sequence.  Something that Murii seemed to suggest by asking about the hash map.
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2018-05-15T13:48:49Z shka: ah, ok
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2018-05-15T14:49:25Z jmercouris: schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
2018-05-15T14:49:28Z jmercouris: schweers: probably is an abuse of that tool, that's true, but I already use it in a lot of other places, so the barrier to using it is less for me
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2018-05-15T15:08:02Z pjb: Murii: you can do: (let ((v (vector 1 2 3 4 5)) (i 2)) (vector-delete (aref v i) v :start i :end (1+ i))) #| --> #(1 2 4 5) |#
2018-05-15T15:08:22Z pjb: it's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:vector-delete
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2018-05-15T15:38:07Z jmercouris: So, I had this issue I was fighting for about 10 minutes, apparently capitalized system names cause all sorts of issues
2018-05-15T15:38:15Z jmercouris: this appears to be true at least on OSX
2018-05-15T15:38:17Z jmercouris: is this known behavior?
2018-05-15T15:38:22Z jmercouris: or is something misconfigured on my end?
2018-05-15T15:40:41Z pjb: OSX file systems by defaults are case insensitive.
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2018-05-15T15:40:51Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'm aware of that
2018-05-15T15:40:57Z jmercouris: I am talking about the system name inside the file
2018-05-15T15:41:21Z jmercouris: It seemed to work with System.asd containing a definition like `(defsystem :system` but not `(defsystem :System`
2018-05-15T15:41:31Z pjb: The problem might come from quicklisp.  Since it accepts both :foo and "foo" as system name, it's better to avoid capitalized system names.
2018-05-15T15:41:38Z pjb: (eq :System  :system) #| --> t |#
2018-05-15T15:42:20Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if I am on AFS yet, I think I'm still on HFS+
2018-05-15T15:42:21Z pjb: and if not, then remember that most people actively write code that breaks when the readtable-case is not :upcase.
2018-05-15T15:42:52Z jmercouris: seems I am indeed on APFS, but case sensitive still disabled
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2018-05-15T15:43:03Z sjl: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Loading-a-system.html#Loading-a-system
2018-05-15T15:43:11Z sjl: Note that the canonical name of a system is a string, conventionally lowercase. A system name can also be specified as a symbol (including a keyword), in which case its symbol-name is taken and lowercased. The name must be a suitable value for the :name initarg to make-pathname in whatever filesystem the system is to be found.
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2018-05-15T15:43:42Z jmercouris: Right, seems like it should give at least a warning when an uppercase system name is used
2018-05-15T15:43:56Z pjb: So the short answer is don't name the file with mixed case. Rename it System.asd. Also, note how funny Apple developers are: you cannot mv System.asd system.asd because there's already a file named