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2018-04-01T05:06:42Z beach: stacksmith: What are you working on? 2018-04-01T05:07:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T05:07:43Z stacksmith: I've been working on a some XCB bindings and freetype fonts with really nice subpixel antialiasing... 2018-04-01T05:07:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T05:08:02Z beach: Sounds good. 2018-04-01T05:09:25Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-01T05:09:50Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I pass :verbose t, I definitely see more compilation output. 2018-04-01T06:00:52Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-01T06:01:39Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:03:14Z drmeister: I'm just seeing... 2018-04-01T06:03:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Tt5c0LaU/ 2018-04-01T06:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:06:43Z jack_rabbit: What lisp are you running? 2018-04-01T06:08:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:08:34Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:09:27Z rme: maybe you are just loading fasls? 2018-04-01T06:09:51Z drmeister: I'm running Cando 2018-04-01T06:12:05Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:13:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:13:20Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:13:27Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:15:49Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:18:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:18:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:21:18Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:23:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:23:45Z jack_rabbit: I don't know what cando is. 2018-04-01T06:23:46Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:24:26Z drmeister: It's a new implementation of Common Lisp. 2018-04-01T06:24:30Z jack_rabbit: ahh. 2018-04-01T06:24:47Z drmeister: Has #lisp forgotten me? 2018-04-01T06:24:49Z jack_rabbit: Definitely when I remove my fasls, I get a lot more compilation messages. 2018-04-01T06:25:11Z easye: Isn't clasp the new implementation, and cando an application? Or have you rebranded? 2018-04-01T06:25:14Z drmeister: Tricky - I'm building in a docker image. I'll have to sort it out tomorrow. 2018-04-01T06:25:18Z jack_rabbit: drmeister, I remember you. I haven't heard of cando, though. :) 2018-04-01T06:25:30Z drmeister: Clasp is the new implementation. Cando is a superset. 2018-04-01T06:26:30Z drmeister: Dammit - I've been getting this over and over and over. 2018-04-01T06:26:35Z jack_rabbit: I see. Yes, I'm familiar with clasp. 2018-04-01T06:26:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/77UElYNV/ 2018-04-01T06:27:09Z bjorkintosh: the combination of commonlisp and c++ right drmeister? 2018-04-01T06:27:10Z drmeister: In a docker image, on linux and my backtraces there are sh*t 2018-04-01T06:27:24Z drmeister: Yes 2018-04-01T06:27:26Z jack_rabbit: Looks like a GC or escape analysis issue, 2018-04-01T06:27:27Z bjorkintosh: which subset of c++ are you using? 2018-04-01T06:27:46Z drmeister: No subset - all of it. 2018-04-01T06:27:54Z jack_rabbit: says me, knowing almost exactly nothing about what I'm looking at. 2018-04-01T06:27:57Z bjorkintosh: Whoa!! 2018-04-01T06:28:20Z jack_rabbit thinks bjorkintosh was making a joke. :) 2018-04-01T06:28:39Z drmeister: No - more likely it's (pathname (probe-file xxxx)) and xxxx is not found. 2018-04-01T06:28:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T06:28:49Z drmeister: If I knew what xxxx was I'd be a whole lot happier. 2018-04-01T06:29:28Z bjorkintosh: nah man. c++ is a multiparadigm language. 2018-04-01T06:29:36Z jack_rabbit: drmeister, Why does that result in a stack-frame pointer error? 2018-04-01T06:29:50Z bjorkintosh: I wondered if he was using the C part or the Template or the OO bits or these days, even the functional part 2018-04-01T06:30:21Z drmeister: Because I'm jitting code and llvm jitted code doesn't play well with backtraces. 2018-04-01T06:30:24Z drmeister: on linux 2018-04-01T06:30:31Z drmeister: in docker containers. 2018-04-01T06:30:34Z jack_rabbit: bjorkintosh, My favorite joke has become that C++ is now functional, but just barely. ;) 2018-04-01T06:30:57Z jackdaniel: drmeister: that'd make a good urban legend: programmer starts debugging particularily hard bug -when he's done and comes out of his basement nothing is the same, he can't recognize anything from both real and virtual world 2018-04-01T06:31:01Z jackdaniel: nobody remembers him 2018-04-01T06:31:25Z jackdaniel: apparently debugging lisp took a little longer than he thought 2018-04-01T06:31:35Z drmeister: How do I debug a problem when quicklisp is building code? 2018-04-01T06:31:39Z bjorkintosh: hah. 2018-04-01T06:31:42Z bjorkintosh: but should it be? 2018-04-01T06:31:54Z jack_rabbit: jackdaniel, I like this very much. 2018-04-01T06:32:09Z jack_rabbit: jackdaniel, like when doomsdayers come out of their bunkers... 2018-04-01T06:32:12Z drmeister: It's not happening on macOS. Grrrr 2018-04-01T06:32:15Z jack_rabbit: What's that movie? 2018-04-01T06:33:18Z jack_rabbit: bjorkintosh, unfortunately, if history is anything to go by, both C++ and Java will probably continue to bolt semantics for whatever the latest trend is. 2018-04-01T06:33:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T06:33:29Z jack_rabbit: *bolt on* 2018-04-01T06:34:00Z jack_rabbit: Not that functional programming is itseld a trend, but it is currently trendy. 2018-04-01T06:34:09Z jack_rabbit: itself* damn it... 2018-04-01T06:34:14Z bjorkintosh: yes jack_rabbit. it's a record of the most popular trends. 2018-04-01T06:35:12Z bjorkintosh: archivists will one day simply have to look at the different c++ versions to determine what the cutting edge in computer science was. 2018-04-01T06:35:19Z bjorkintosh: Right? Right? 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I know how to test for conditions, structures, and standard-objects, but not types otherwise. 2018-04-01T11:10:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:14:35Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:15:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:15:45Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:23:24Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:30:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:30:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:31:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:35:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:36:49Z makomo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:40:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:45:15Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:46:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:46:59Z pierpa: is (SUBTYPEP symbol T) enough? If not, what do you need it for? 2018-04-01T11:48:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:50:48Z Bike: that's difficult. implementations can vary which types are also classes, and how they do type macroexpansion, and so on 2018-04-01T11:51:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:51:29Z Bike: typexpand was already annoying to do across implementstions, as i remember 2018-04-01T11:53:51Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-01T11:53:58Z sindan joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:54:11Z pythosnek joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:56:15Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:59:03Z pythosnek quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-01T11:59:32Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T11:59:51Z Shinmera: pierpa: I don't think that's guaranteed to provide anything useful. 2018-04-01T12:00:01Z makomo_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:00:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:00:13Z Shinmera: I need it in order to determine whether a type-definition should be emitted in my documentation system. 2018-04-01T12:00:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:00:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T12:00:36Z Shinmera: Bike: Right. I don't even need to type expand though, just to know whether a symbol names a type at all. 2018-04-01T12:00:52Z beach: Shinmera: Are you putting together one of those TRIVIAL- libraries? 2018-04-01T12:01:06Z Shinmera: No, it's for Staple. 2018-04-01T12:01:18Z Shinmera: But if others would find it useful, I could. 2018-04-01T12:01:45Z Bike: it sounds like you only need to know about user deftypes, in which case typexpand would do it 2018-04-01T12:01:53Z beach: It sounds like it would be a very useful library to have. And it would include TYPE-EXPAND. 2018-04-01T12:02:14Z pierpa: Guarantee or not, why an implementation shouldn't be reasinable? 2018-04-01T12:02:23Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:02:23Z Bike: my introspect-environment has typexpand, but only on a couple implementations 2018-04-01T12:02:34Z Bike: https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment/blob/master/ccl.lisp#L82 all internal symbols and shit too 2018-04-01T12:02:50Z Bike: (you only need ccl::%deftype-expander, ofc) 2018-04-01T12:03:53Z Shinmera: pierpa: subtypep is a much more complex operation than simply testing whether a type exists. 2018-04-01T12:04:23Z pierpa: Subtypep of t? 2018-04-01T12:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T12:04:58Z Shinmera: it could return T for subtypep for inexistent types too 2018-04-01T12:05:24Z Shinmera: at least if I remember correctly. 2018-04-01T12:07:17Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:07:51Z disumu joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:08:01Z pierpa: I can't see anything allowing this in the hs. Just reread to be sure. 2018-04-01T12:08:27Z Bike: is there anything disallowing it? 2018-04-01T12:08:40Z pierpa: Yes, the hs 2018-04-01T12:08:52Z Bike: how's that? 2018-04-01T12:09:28Z Bike: it doesn't mention any errors, it just says the arguments are type specifiers, which means using non type specifiers is UB, rather than defined to be an error 2018-04-01T12:09:53Z pierpa: Because of my interpretation of the English words contained in the hs 2018-04-01T12:17:51Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T12:19:36Z dcluna joined #lisp 2018-04-01T12:21:32Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2018-04-01T13:56:55Z puchacz: (linux) 2018-04-01T13:58:16Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-01T13:59:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:00:05Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:04:09Z Colleen joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:04:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:06:28Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:08:14Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:09:20Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:09:31Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T14:10:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:11:24Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:11:36Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:13:26Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:15:35Z k-stz: puchacz: why not just test it? there are calls to query it, like `process-status' 2018-04-01T14:16:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:16:47Z k-stz: lastly there is an irc channel dedicated to #sbcl 2018-04-01T14:19:23Z puchacz: k-stz: thanks for the info on new channel :) 2018-04-01T14:19:29Z puchacz: yeah, I tested it and it seems to behave this way 2018-04-01T14:19:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:20:07Z puchacz: actually it seems that it is nil only when it is still running 2018-04-01T14:21:28Z gacepa joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:22:29Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:22:56Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:25:55Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:26:46Z makomo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:26:57Z k-stz: puchacz: if you check out the sbcl source, the exit-code is just a slot in a "process defstruct", which is nil on initilazation. The code also looks easy to understand at first glance 2018-04-01T14:28:49Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:30:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:34:13Z oleo2 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:35:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:36:10Z malice joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:38:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:39:09Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:39:28Z oleo2__ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:39:58Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T14:40:26Z oleo2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:40:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:40:38Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:46:56Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-01T14:49:19Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T14:49:33Z oleo2__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T14:51:37Z puchacz: k-stz: thanks again 2018-04-01T14:52:18Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-01T14:59:22Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:01:33Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:01:57Z puchacz: how can I add 2 reader features please? I would like #+(linux sbcl) 2018-04-01T15:02:33Z Xach: puchacz: OR is one option 2018-04-01T15:02:39Z Shinmera: clhs 24.1.2.1 2018-04-01T15:02:39Z Xach: puchacz: or AND 2018-04-01T15:02:39Z specbot: Feature Expressions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 2018-04-01T15:02:40Z puchacz: I want AND 2018-04-01T15:02:48Z puchacz: Xach: thanks 2018-04-01T15:03:02Z makomo_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:10:55Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T15:11:00Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:11:39Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:14:19Z zaquest_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T15:18:29Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:26:02Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:26:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:33:00Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T15:35:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:36:36Z zotan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T15:38:12Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T15:40:48Z Bozo_the_Clown_1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-01T15:40:55Z pfdietz quit 2018-04-01T15:41:23Z Bozo_the_Clown joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:42:11Z zotan joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:42:30Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:43:00Z cpc26_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T15:43:33Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:43:42Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:44:24Z cpc26_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T15:44:53Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:45:45Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T15:46:02Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:46:03Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T15:47:58Z cpc26_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T15:48:14Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:56:12Z disumu quit (Quit: ...) 2018-04-01T15:56:41Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-01T15:58:39Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:03:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:05:06Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:06:39Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:06:41Z Ven`` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T16:06:53Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:07:51Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:10:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:16:23Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-01T16:17:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:18:07Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:19:13Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:26:59Z [df] joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:31:06Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-01T16:32:32Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-01T16:36:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:37:03Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:39:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:41:10Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-01T16:41:28Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T16:49:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T16:52:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:04:48Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:09:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:11:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:12:58Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:14:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:20:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T17:20:51Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:21:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:24:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:25:35Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:25:38Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:29:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:30:41Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:31:56Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:34:13Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T17:34:33Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:36:43Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:37:02Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:37:33Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-01T17:38:01Z malice joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:42:26Z Pollwa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:42:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:50:46Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T17:51:15Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:54:53Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T17:58:02Z puchacz: can I optimize a specific package for speed? 2018-04-01T17:58:35Z puchacz: specifically, the "zip" package 2018-04-01T17:58:43Z puchacz: I have no business in debugging it for example 2018-04-01T18:00:38Z puchacz: or maybe optimize everything for speed except my package? 2018-04-01T18:03:29Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T18:08:08Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-01T18:10:42Z Fare: yes you can 2018-04-01T18:10:52Z Fare: you can also run it in its own thread 2018-04-01T18:10:54Z Fare: or subprocess 2018-04-01T18:11:30Z Fare: for compressing logs, I use xz -9 in a subprocess, which also reduces the GC pressure. 2018-04-01T18:12:15Z Fare: "APPLY is the EVAL twin." 2018-04-01T18:15:20Z puchacz: Fare: I meant something like (declare (optimize (speed 3))) 2018-04-01T18:15:50Z puchacz: how is it supposed to work anyway? if I put it in dot file in cl-user, will it apply to everything? 2018-04-01T18:16:06Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-01T18:16:29Z Ralaver_Master joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:16:52Z Fare: puchacz: it is not currently supposed to work 2018-04-01T18:17:23Z Fare: puchacz: the way it works is you put (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) in every file where you want that setting. 2018-04-01T18:17:32Z puchacz: Fare: in sbcl? I am trying to do it in lispworks 2018-04-01T18:17:43Z puchacz: sbcl is fine speedwise as it is 2018-04-01T18:17:58Z Fare: OR you use an around-compile handler in ASDF to (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3))) around the compilation of your files. 2018-04-01T18:18:09Z puchacz: Fare: sounds better 2018-04-01T18:18:20Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-01T18:18:23Z puchacz: how do I do it pls? 2018-04-01T18:18:24Z Fare: note the difference between declaim and proclaim 2018-04-01T18:18:40Z puchacz: I don't understand these things :( 2018-04-01T18:19:01Z puchacz: this is why I wrote "declare" above 2018-04-01T18:19:17Z puchacz: declare is for function bodies only, isn't it? 2018-04-01T18:20:13Z |3b|: DECLARE is for forms that accept DECLARE :p 2018-04-01T18:20:28Z puchacz: and proclaim and declaim? 2018-04-01T18:20:42Z |3b|: (functions, LOCALLY, LET, etc) 2018-04-01T18:20:55Z |3b|: those are global 2018-04-01T18:21:37Z |3b|: one is a function, other is macro with compile-time side effects 2018-04-01T18:22:05Z Fare: go read the CLHS about the difference and/or experiment at the REPL. 2018-04-01T18:23:26Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:23:36Z puchacz: ok, and this compiler hook? 2018-04-01T18:23:58Z puchacz: it certainly sounds better than modifying all the files in quicklisp 2018-04-01T18:24:15Z puchacz: and then modifying them back if I want to debug after all 2018-04-01T18:26:09Z makomo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T18:26:12Z |3b| would first try just deleting .fasl cache, declaim speed or whatever, and load the system and see if it actually gets noticeably faster before doing complicated things to make it permanent 2018-04-01T18:27:04Z puchacz: |3b| fasl deleted, but where to put (declaim (optimize (speed 3)) if it is supposed to be in every file? 2018-04-01T18:27:13Z |3b|: i mean just at repl 2018-04-01T18:27:20Z puchacz: ah 2018-04-01T18:27:49Z sword joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:29:27Z puchacz: sounds like I want (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3)))) 2018-04-01T18:29:33Z puchacz: in .lispworks 2018-04-01T18:29:40Z Bike: that's just declaim 2018-04-01T18:29:49Z puchacz: it says "is always in force unless locally shadowed." 2018-04-01T18:30:33Z Bike: (macroexpand-1 '(declaim (optimize speed))) => equivalent to what you wrote 2018-04-01T18:30:50Z puchacz: Bike: so why Fare said I should do it in every file? 2018-04-01T18:30:53Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:31:25Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T18:31:25Z Bike: fare was talking in the context of a handler function 2018-04-01T18:31:48Z Bike: in which case it's executing like anything else so you don't need eval-when stuff 2018-04-01T18:32:12Z puchacz: so if I (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) in .lispworks in cl-user package, will it just work globally "unless shadowed" somewhere? 2018-04-01T18:32:26Z puchacz: then remove .fasls and restart 2018-04-01T18:32:28Z pjb: yes. 2018-04-01T18:32:37Z puchacz: thanks 2018-04-01T18:32:40Z puchacz: I will try :) 2018-04-01T18:33:05Z pjb: I would do: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 3))) 2018-04-01T18:33:20Z pjb: If you're crazy, you mean do: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 0))) 2018-04-01T18:33:43Z pjb: I should write "Crazy", instead of "crazy" :-) 2018-04-01T18:33:46Z puchacz: pjb: I want to see how fast lispworks can go. by default 32 bit linux lispworks is much slower than 64 bit linux sbcl. 2018-04-01T18:33:49Z |3b| wouldn't change space debug or safety :p 2018-04-01T18:34:08Z |3b|: (at least without specific testing) 2018-04-01T18:34:09Z pjb: You'd have to test, it depends on the implementatioan. 2018-04-01T18:34:15Z |3b|: yeah 2018-04-01T18:34:22Z pjb: But usually debug 0 and space 3 allows it to generate faster code. 2018-04-01T18:34:45Z puchacz: I thought space vs speed is a famous tradeoff.... 2018-04-01T18:34:54Z puchacz: so if I just say speed 3, it will do whatever is needed 2018-04-01T18:35:12Z pjb: It is, but for code, smaller code means fewer memory accesses, and therefore more speed. 2018-04-01T18:35:28Z puchacz: ok, I will try 2018-04-01T18:36:05Z pjb: now, space is both code size and run-time space, which may be a little oxymoronic. 2018-04-01T18:36:45Z pjb: smaller code = simplier code = bigger data. If you optimize for smaller data you may need to use bigger code… 2018-04-01T18:37:08Z pjb: they should have specified code-size and data-size instead of space… 2018-04-01T18:37:28Z |3b| notes that salza2 (used by zip) already has some OPTIMIZE SPEED declarations, so global setting might not help it much 2018-04-01T18:37:54Z puchacz: |3b| yes, but I noticed that slowness is also in my html processing 2018-04-01T18:38:19Z puchacz: parsing, serializing 2018-04-01T18:38:36Z Bindler` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:39:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T18:43:01Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:44:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T18:45:34Z puchacz: these declarations are not helping much 2018-04-01T18:46:05Z Fare: puchacz: what are you doing? 2018-04-01T18:46:30Z puchacz: doing a lot of HTML processing. maybe I "broke" lispworks by replacing standard functions by unicode functions 2018-04-01T18:46:47Z puchacz: something I need to check 2018-04-01T18:47:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T18:47:33Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:50:54Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:51:05Z tomlukeywood quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T18:51:27Z puchacz: in one HTML the difference is massive. in the other - not so much. so my unicode "fix" has definitely something to do with it 2018-04-01T18:52:40Z puchacz: I did (:shadowing-import-from #:unicode-hack #:char-equal #:char-not-equal ....) 2018-04-01T18:52:44Z puchacz: and so on 2018-04-01T18:55:04Z puchacz: and inside :unicode-hack, it maps to lispworks:unicode-both-case-p etc. 2018-04-01T18:55:17Z puchacz: lispworks has unicode aware functions, but under different names 2018-04-01T18:56:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T18:56:28Z Ralaver_Master is now known as TCZ 2018-04-01T19:01:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:01:53Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-01T19:03:53Z puchacz: I just need to drill down to individual steps I guess. unzipping, parsing html, processing, serializing..... 2018-04-01T19:04:06Z puchacz: and I really want unicode 2018-04-01T19:06:25Z segmond joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:07:50Z jeosol: Morning everyone. Blessed is he who hacks lisp ... 2018-04-01T19:08:41Z asarch: How would you declare a function like: (get-coords #'sin 10) (get-coords #'cos 15)? 2018-04-01T19:09:30Z asarch: (defun get-coords (x y) (x y)) I get: undefined function: X 2018-04-01T19:09:40Z malice: use funcall 2018-04-01T19:09:43Z malice: (funcall x y) 2018-04-01T19:09:50Z asarch: Thank you! 2018-04-01T19:09:55Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2018-04-01T19:09:56Z malice: Common Lisp is Lisp-2, meaning that it has two namespaces; values and functions rest in different namespaces 2018-04-01T19:10:06Z malice: your code would be valid in scheme(the function call part) 2018-04-01T19:10:11Z malice: since it has one namespace for both 2018-04-01T19:10:23Z malice: in Common Lisp, if you store function as a value of a symbol, you need to use funcall 2018-04-01T19:10:24Z asarch: I see 2018-04-01T19:10:25Z malice: No problem. 2018-04-01T19:10:34Z asarch: Thank you very much once again :-) 2018-04-01T19:12:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:13:59Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:19:11Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:19:32Z Fare: puchacz, if you care about raw speed, maybe you should stick to SBCL 2018-04-01T19:20:14Z puchacz: Fare: delivery is much worse 2018-04-01T19:20:18Z Bindler` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T19:20:32Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:20:34Z puchacz: I use sbcl for server, but I have a fantasy of stand alone applications 2018-04-01T19:20:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:21:29Z Fare: puchacz: what about producing a statically-linked executable with SBCL ? 2018-04-01T19:21:37Z Fare: cffi has the basic capability for it 2018-04-01T19:21:46Z puchacz: Fare: not for android I take? 2018-04-01T19:21:48Z Fare: and/or bazel 2018-04-01T19:21:52Z Fare: oh, android. 2018-04-01T19:21:57Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:22:15Z puchacz: but for windows and linux, if it is possible, I may want to explore 2018-04-01T19:22:27Z puchacz: Fare: shall I google for bazel? 2018-04-01T19:22:40Z Fare: I suppose you could produce sbcl output for android, though the interface would be in a separate java binary 2018-04-01T19:22:46Z Fare: bazelisp 2018-04-01T19:22:53Z Fare: though it doesn't seem to be maintained 2018-04-01T19:22:54Z puchacz: this is how lispworks works anyway 2018-04-01T19:23:14Z puchacz: your app is in .so but you have to call java and be callable from java 2018-04-01T19:23:22Z puchacz: ah, not maintained :( 2018-04-01T19:23:38Z puchacz: I think realistically I need to use lispworks if I want standalone apps 2018-04-01T19:23:43Z Fare: ecl ? 2018-04-01T19:23:50Z puchacz: never tried 2018-04-01T19:23:57Z puchacz: I know maxima on android uses ecl 2018-04-01T19:23:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:24:07Z Fare: I never used ecl on android 2018-04-01T19:24:31Z Fare: and on laptop lispworks is nicer for interactive use 2018-04-01T19:24:35Z pjb: asarch: (defun get-coords (x y) (list x y)) or (defun get-coords (f x) "Calls f with x as argument." (funcall f x)) 2018-04-01T19:25:18Z aeth: Most packaged games (e.g. game jams, etc.) tend to use SBCL, except for on Android. 2018-04-01T19:25:36Z puchacz: Fire: lispworks is good enough, I think I can force some performance out of it. 2018-04-01T19:25:48Z puchacz: aeth: really? I did not know they existed 2018-04-01T19:25:54Z Fare: lispworks compiles fast. The code it produces is OK. 2018-04-01T19:26:33Z puchacz: aeth: any specific examples you can think of? 2018-04-01T19:26:50Z aeth: https://dto.itch.io/ 2018-04-01T19:26:53Z Fare: there is sbcl for arm, etc. So you could run it on android. It's just that you then need some RPC to the java or javascript interface 2018-04-01T19:26:55Z puchacz: s/Fire/Fare/ sorry 2018-04-01T19:27:34Z puchacz: Fare: I fear there be dragons 2018-04-01T19:27:38Z puchacz: if it is not widely used 2018-04-01T19:28:14Z aeth: These game jams tend to produce standalone binaries. Most of the CL entries use SBCL afaik. https://github.com/lispgames/lispgames.github.io/wiki/Lisp-Game-Jams 2018-04-01T19:28:40Z puchacz: aeth: thanks, I will check how they are built 2018-04-01T19:29:48Z puchacz: Fare: did you notice that lispworks without "patching" like I did does not use unicode across standard string and character functions? 2018-04-01T19:29:53Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:30:24Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:30:58Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:32:32Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:35:35Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:37:27Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:37:35Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:37:35Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:42:35Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:42:57Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:43:23Z equwal` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:46:11Z krwq joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:47:35Z equwal` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:49:45Z equwal` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:49:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T19:50:04Z equwal` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T19:51:37Z galdor joined #lisp 2018-04-01T19:51:47Z puchacz: also, pjb - why is it "Crazy" to switch safety to 0? is it possible that (+ 5 nil) will return a value for example? 2018-04-01T19:58:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:01:08Z aeth: puchacz: In SBCL, setting safety to 0 removes type checks and bounds checks. Other implementations might behave similarly, or might ignore a safety 0 and always enforce safety. 2018-04-01T20:01:43Z puchacz: aeth: so accessing index of vector out of bounds will not signal anything, just return a value? or store a value? 2018-04-01T20:02:08Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:02:49Z _death: it may signal a HAVE-A-GOOD-DAY condition 2018-04-01T20:02:52Z puchacz: (that's for bound checks) and for type checks, it will get an area in memory, say it is "integer" and like in C - no matter what there was, I will get an integer 2018-04-01T20:02:57Z aeth: The problem is with something like this: (setf (aref foo 42) #xffffff) 2018-04-01T20:03:01Z Bike: it could crash 2018-04-01T20:03:02Z aeth: Now you're setting arbitrary memory 2018-04-01T20:03:12Z aeth: (assuming foo is size 3 or something) 2018-04-01T20:03:22Z puchacz: aeth: ok, so I will not change safety :) 2018-04-01T20:03:42Z aeth: well, safety 1 is probably what you think safety 0 should be 2018-04-01T20:04:16Z puchacz: it is implementation dependant anyway, so I take your word for sbcl, and I may check with lispworks support what they mean by 0 or 1 2018-04-01T20:04:57Z puchacz: Bike: crashing is not as bad as continuing to operate incorrectly 2018-04-01T20:05:11Z Bike: the point is there's a lot of things it could do 2018-04-01T20:05:17Z puchacz: yes, I got it now 2018-04-01T20:05:45Z puchacz: sbcl will crash on any uncaught signal/error whatever if you disable debugger, which is what I do for server 2018-04-01T20:06:22Z puchacz: and this is what we want, no? something unexpected, restart sbcl, rather than hang on [1] to use value [2] to abort etc. 2018-04-01T20:06:29Z puchacz: there is nobody to hit 1 or 2 2018-04-01T20:06:47Z puchacz: do you agree with this for server? 2018-04-01T20:06:52Z puchacz: (and it runs in screen) 2018-04-01T20:06:57Z pierpa_: lispworks describes very well what they do in their excellent documentation 2018-04-01T20:07:34Z aeth: If you're going to make assumptions that work some places but not others #+foo is probably a good idea 2018-04-01T20:07:35Z puchacz: pierpa_ tks, I may check but so far I estabilished that even with speed 3 my program is way too slow, so I need to dig into details.... 2018-04-01T20:07:56Z pierpa_: right. But no need to ask their support 2018-04-01T20:07:57Z aeth: puchacz: Try pre-allocating things before loops 2018-04-01T20:08:18Z aeth: Repeatedly making garbage can really slow things down. 2018-04-01T20:08:59Z puchacz: I use this cxml-20110619-git for HTML processing. Maybe I should try plump? 2018-04-01T20:09:57Z epony: ongoing joke: Sun, Apr 01 Apple Computer founded, 1976 2018-04-01T20:10:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:10:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:10:54Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:12:54Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:12:57Z pierpa_: That's 42 years ago. Maybe *this* was the question? 2018-04-01T20:13:10Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:15:19Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:15:35Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:15:36Z epony: Must have been a Thursday. 2018-04-01T20:15:52Z puchacz: pierpa_: do you use lispworks? 2018-04-01T20:16:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:16:19Z pierpa_: puchacz: currently not, in the past yes. 2018-04-01T20:16:38Z puchacz: pierpa_: did you have to hack / patch unicode? 2018-04-01T20:16:52Z puchacz: my way works but it slows things down a lot 2018-04-01T20:16:58Z pierpa_: can't help about this, sorry 2018-04-01T20:17:06Z puchacz: ok, no worries 2018-04-01T20:18:45Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:24:26Z thallia joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:25:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:25:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T20:26:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:26:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-01T20:26:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:28:10Z Bindler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T20:34:39Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:35:30Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:36:23Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:36:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T20:37:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:38:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:38:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-01T20:38:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:38:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T20:38:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:38:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-01T20:38:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:41:04Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T20:41:09Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:43:59Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:44:20Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:46:00Z phax joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:48:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T20:49:49Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:50:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T20:53:08Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2018-04-01T20:55:50Z jjkola quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-01T20:56:09Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T20:56:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T20:58:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:00:45Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:04:40Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:05:46Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:11:27Z mikecheck left #lisp 2018-04-01T21:11:29Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:11:53Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:14:10Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:14:48Z svetlyak_ joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:14:49Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2018-04-01T21:15:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:16:41Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:17:30Z Ven` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:18:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:18:27Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:20:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:21:15Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:21:19Z Ven`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:22:29Z Ven` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:24:41Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:25:18Z onion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T21:25:26Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:25:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-01T21:26:34Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-01T21:31:20Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Q for the gurus here: Does anybody know the state of affairs of xcvb (https://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/doc/README.html)? Thanks a bunch for feedback. 2018-04-01T21:54:08Z Shinmera: It is abandonware. 2018-04-01T21:54:33Z frgo: Shinmera: Oh? Not good. 2018-04-01T21:54:36Z frgo: Thanks. 2018-04-01T21:54:40Z Shinmera: See https://github.com/fare/xcvb/tree/master 2018-04-01T21:54:53Z Shinmera: It was abandoned because it didn't catch on. 2018-04-01T21:55:12Z frgo: So, ASDF. ok. 2018-04-01T21:55:46Z Shinmera: Well it was meant to supersede ASDF. 2018-04-01T21:56:05Z frgo: I know. That's why I asked. 2018-04-01T21:56:28Z aeth: What I'd like to see in a build system is a build system that can put everything into one compilation unit (which is typically one file) for a final executable distribution. There seems to be three levels of compiler information: internal to a function, internal to a compilation unit (normally a file), and everything else. One compilation unit might generate more efficient *and* safer code. 2018-04-01T21:56:47Z aeth: (At the cost of inflexibility: you'd have to recompile the whole thing at once) 2018-04-01T21:56:56Z scymtym: frgo: iirc, for the parallel build component mentioned there, poiu, some work has been done relatively recently to integrate it into asdf. i don't remember the outcome, though 2018-04-01T21:57:06Z Shinmera: aeth: ASDF can concatenate all sources for you. 2018-04-01T21:57:17Z aeth: Shinmera: great, does anyone do this when building an executable? 2018-04-01T21:57:31Z Shinmera: aeth: Not for an executable, but for things that should be shippable as source I do. 2018-04-01T21:57:32Z frgo: scymtym: oh - thanks for the pointer. 2018-04-01T21:57:35Z random-nick: a part of sqlite3's build process is merging all of the files into one big file 2018-04-01T21:57:47Z random-nick: they do it mainly for performance reasons 2018-04-01T21:58:03Z random-nick: but it's also easier to distribute the source when it's just one big file 2018-04-01T21:58:12Z aeth: It might make a big difference in my game engine, which for practical purposes is split into many files that aren't that big 2018-04-01T21:58:13Z Shinmera: This is all that's required: https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous/blob/master/ubiquitous.asd#L22-L23 2018-04-01T21:58:14Z random-nick: https://sqlite.org/amalgamation.html 2018-04-01T21:58:19Z Shinmera: and then just run (asdf:make :system) 2018-04-01T21:59:20Z aeth: It doesn't do that all of the time, does it? 2018-04-01T21:59:38Z Shinmera: does what all the time 2018-04-01T21:59:38Z aeth: It would make development much harder, but the final result potentially much faster. 2018-04-01T22:00:02Z aeth: The build/make thing 2018-04-01T22:00:10Z Administrator joined #lisp 2018-04-01T22:00:27Z Administrator is now known as Guest6885 2018-04-01T22:01:09Z Shinmera: it does it whenever you run make 2018-04-01T22:01:23Z aeth: Is make run all of the time through Quicklisp or is it a packaging step? 2018-04-01T22:01:30Z Shinmera: loading and make-ing a system are different things. 2018-04-01T22:01:48Z aeth: Where is the result of make? I can't seem to find it 2018-04-01T22:01:53Z Shinmera: in the source directory 2018-04-01T22:02:10Z aeth: ah, I see, it makes a new .lisp 2018-04-01T22:02:40Z aeth: Oh, wow, it even loads all of the dependencies 2018-04-01T22:03:56Z aeth: I see. It was probably instant because I have an SSD. The expected delay is when compiling that new, large file. 2018-04-01T22:04:04Z Guest6885 is now known as Guest6888 2018-04-01T22:04:51Z Guest6888 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-01T22:05:17Z onion joined #lisp 2018-04-01T22:05:54Z onion is now known as whoman 2018-04-01T22:06:04Z whoman is now known as onion 2018-04-01T22:06:45Z drmeister: What is DRIBBLE for? Does it serve a purpose anymore? 2018-04-01T22:07:26Z Shinmera: recording a repl session to file. 2018-04-01T22:08:21Z drmeister: Does it do anything for SLIME? 2018-04-01T22:08:24Z Shinmera: probably only really useful if you're stuck on a TTY. 2018-04-01T22:08:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T22:09:48Z Bike: it's pretty obsolete 2018-04-01T22:11:20Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-01T22:13:48Z Baggers left #lisp 2018-04-01T22:15:36Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-01T22:24:26Z csteven joined #lisp 2018-04-01T22:26:27Z thallia quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-01T22:31:39Z pjb: drmeister: in the unix philosophy, you would use something like: tty-rec clasp ; but in the lisp philosophy, it's batteries included ;-) 2018-04-01T22:34:08Z pjb: drmeister: slime runs the commands in separate threads, it doesn't use the implementation REPL. To provide a conforming REPL, slime would have to implement its own dribble mechanism. 2018-04-01T22:35:17Z pjb: drmeister: I don't think it's obsolete. It's useful for example, when you develop. You will keep trying your code at the REPL. If you took care to call dribble to save it to a file, you can then take this file and extract from it your tries to write a test for your new code. 2018-04-01T22:35:44Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T22:35:56Z pjb: It's also like .bash_history. Sometimes you want to check out what you did back in time. 2018-04-01T22:36:11Z pjb: I used to call dribble in my rc file, recoding all my lisp sessions. 2018-04-01T22:36:41Z pjb: https://hastebin.com/ipuwiburot.lisp 2018-04-01T22:37:24Z dTal: that sentence was nasty 2018-04-01T22:39:14Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Small projects can be stored in a single file. Bigger projects need more organization, that will depend on the size and structure of the project. 2018-04-01T23:28:40Z pjb: z3t0: the only thing nowadays, is that it's convenient to provide an asd file so that we may easily compile, load and test your project. 2018-04-01T23:28:57Z z3t0: Okay got it 2018-04-01T23:29:02Z pjb: z3t0: asdf -> https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 2018-04-01T23:29:16Z pjb: z3t0: otherwise, you can check a lot of examples, in quicklisp. 2018-04-01T23:29:29Z z3t0: one more thing 2018-04-01T23:29:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T23:29:45Z z3t0: currently I have two slime repls open in emacs, however my commands are going to the wrong one (such as compile) 2018-04-01T23:29:54Z z3t0: How can I switch to the other one? 2018-04-01T23:29:58Z Bike: M-x slime-next-connection 2018-04-01T23:30:03Z z3t0: thanks 2018-04-01T23:30:17Z z3t0: that worked 2018-04-01T23:31:33Z Xach: cl-ppcre is good 2018-04-01T23:32:10Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-01T23:35:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-01T23:35:56Z Guest77776 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-01T23:37:14Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-01T23:40:35Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-01T23:42:30Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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LispWorks 6 didn't support Unicode codepoints > 65535 2018-04-02T03:53:48Z Fare: LispWorks 7 does have CHAR-CODE-LIMIT = 1114112 2018-04-02T03:54:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T03:56:38Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T03:59:06Z pierpa_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-02T04:00:29Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T04:01:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T04:01:13Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:01:37Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T04:05:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T04:11:27Z slyrus_: morning beach 2018-04-02T04:12:07Z beach: slyrus_: How are things? Still busy? 2018-04-02T04:16:33Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:18:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-02T04:20:18Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:24:35Z smasta quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-02T04:27:15Z defunkydrummer: good morning Beach 2018-04-02T04:35:36Z sindan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T04:36:03Z sindan joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:38:26Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-02T04:45:23Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:46:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T04:57:02Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-02T04:57:02Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-02T04:57:02Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-02T05:01:40Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-02T05:01:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T05:02:10Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-02T05:03:45Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-02T05:04:55Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-02T05:06:05Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T05:07:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T05:09:46Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-02T06:07:36Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:11:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:13:32Z drmeister: Hello 2018-04-02T06:16:00Z drmeister: I'm just becoming hip to how well docker works with Common Lisp. Say you have a lot of ASDF systems and you have a slowish compiler - just build everything in a docker container and ship it. Compiled asdf systems are all bundled up with it. 2018-04-02T06:18:15Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:18:32Z drmeister: Fare: Are you still online? 2018-04-02T06:25:03Z Fare: drmeister, kind of 2018-04-02T06:25:54Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:34:23Z bjorkintosh: docker huh? 2018-04-02T06:42:37Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:45:29Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:45:30Z Quetzal2 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-02T06:45:30Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:46:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:47:41Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:47:49Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T06:51:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-02T06:52:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:53:24Z stylewarning: drmeister: we do that and it works fine 2018-04-02T06:56:49Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-02T06:57:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T06:59:18Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:01:46Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T07:08:45Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T07:10:15Z Murii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T07:11:32Z Murii joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:12:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:18:48Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T07:19:18Z Tristam joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:19:18Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:25:36Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:25:55Z jmercouris: I'm looking to use lisp for generating API stubs in a variety of languages 2018-04-02T07:25:59Z jmercouris: any place I should start? 2018-04-02T07:26:04Z jmercouris: has someone done something similar before? 2018-04-02T07:29:46Z jmercouris: is anyone awake right now? 2018-04-02T07:30:23Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:31:58Z fourier: probably you can roll out something on basis of c-mera for C. otherwise maybe SWIG could help, design API in C and generate all bindings for all languages you want via SWIG 2018-04-02T07:33:45Z jmercouris: fourier: swig is a good idea, but I wanted to do it in Lisp 2018-04-02T07:34:22Z jmercouris: I'll look into C-mera, maybe has some ideas I can take 2018-04-02T07:34:27Z jmercouris: thanks 2018-04-02T07:35:32Z fourier: why limit yourself, there are tons of corner cases which were already solved in swig. and to prepare truly portable api better to start with C anyway I believe 2018-04-02T07:36:27Z fourier: but it would be awesome to have some generator in CL I must admit.. c-mera is a good step forward but to low-level imho 2018-04-02T07:37:03Z jmercouris: definitely, lots of corner cases, and supporting each language will be a huge pain for sure 2018-04-02T07:37:42Z jmercouris: I just thought it would be something fun to do 2018-04-02T07:38:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:39:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:40:17Z jmercouris: admittedely, the domain I'm trying to solve is far simpler and would be something like what swagger provides 2018-04-02T07:40:20Z jmercouris: https://swagger.io 2018-04-02T07:41:21Z fourier: isn't it for web apis not library apis? 2018-04-02T07:41:39Z jmercouris: that is what I meant when I said "API stubs" 2018-04-02T07:41:55Z jmercouris: the problem is kind of the same, kind of different 2018-04-02T07:42:14Z jmercouris: you're still accessing an FFI, but one is in a much more roundabout way 2018-04-02T07:42:22Z PlasmaStar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T07:42:32Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make wrappers for an API in several languages 2018-04-02T07:42:46Z jmercouris: so I'll have some sort of interface definition file 2018-04-02T07:43:01Z jmercouris: maybe I'll use the OpenAPI specification: https://swagger.io/specification/ 2018-04-02T07:43:14Z jmercouris: though admittedly it looks just like json... 2018-04-02T07:43:44Z jmercouris: anyways, generating the classes, functions, etc for the API will still not be trivial, but at least easier than library APIs 2018-04-02T07:43:55Z jmercouris: I should have been more specific in my question, sorry 2018-04-02T07:44:11Z fourier: yep, contexts are pretty different 2018-04-02T07:44:40Z fourier: for what do people mean as "API" 2018-04-02T07:45:44Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T07:55:25Z jjkola joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:55:37Z jjkola: hi 2018-04-02T07:56:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T07:56:35Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T08:04:51Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:05:15Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T08:08:01Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:09:27Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T08:10:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T08:11:01Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T08:12:51Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:16:11Z jmercouris: hi 2018-04-02T08:18:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:24:51Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T08:36:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:37:30Z lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 2018-04-02T08:38:48Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T08:43:13Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-02T08:43:34Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T08:44:28Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T08:45:10Z krwq left #lisp 2018-04-02T08:50:10Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T08:52:19Z igemnace_ is now known as igemnace 2018-04-02T08:52:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-02T08:53:50Z pyericz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-02T08:59:44Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-02T08:59:58Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-02T09:07:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:08:01Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:08:14Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:09:40Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:12:38Z makomo: hello 2018-04-02T09:12:52Z beach: Hello makomo. 2018-04-02T09:12:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:13:01Z makomo: hi :-) 2018-04-02T09:14:27Z jmercouris: hello 2018-04-02T09:15:30Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:16:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:21:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:22:45Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:23:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:27:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:27:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:29:23Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:39:05Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:45:05Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:50:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:53:45Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T09:57:35Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-02T09:59:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T10:02:46Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-02T10:05:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T10:06:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-02T10:07:46Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Today I'm here for a career advice. Currently I'm making 669.97usd/month after taxes as a full time erlang programmer. And I'm starting to get sick and I can't pay for doctors, nothing terrible, i *believe* is just food deficiency. I would love to make 1k-1.5k/usd month working remotely, and i don't care how many hours or day i should work to get that. 2018-04-02T14:12:05Z soma1257: What i want from you guys is some advice, What market should i focus in? Where can i find a better job? Is any real chance for a remote job for a normal programmer? 2018-04-02T14:14:20Z beach: soma1257: You are kind of in the wrong channel. 2018-04-02T14:14:36Z beach: This channel is dedicated to discussions around the Common Lisp language. 2018-04-02T14:21:17Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:22:49Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-02T14:23:04Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T14:30:16Z TMA: soma1257: #lispcafe is for the offtopic discussion 2018-04-02T14:34:34Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T14:36:05Z void_pointer quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2018-04-02T14:38:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-02T14:40:30Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:41:38Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T14:41:53Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:42:04Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:42:22Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:43:04Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:43:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:44:21Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:46:39Z nsrahmad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T14:47:13Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:48:03Z jeosol: Morning 2018-04-02T14:48:13Z beach: Hello jeosol. 2018-04-02T14:48:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T14:48:54Z jeosol: I happy to say my cl-application is somewhat stable now, but my local 64gb box with 32 jobs in parallel is using all my memory, will have to get something online 2018-04-02T14:49:30Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:51:03Z jeosol: morning beach 2018-04-02T14:53:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T14:57:38Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:01:28Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:06:49Z phoe: jackdaniel: I just stumbled upon the handler-case thing that you were talking about some time ago. 2018-04-02T15:07:09Z phoe: Time for me to sit down and actually write a handler-case* myself. 2018-04-02T15:07:57Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:08:34Z Bike: the star does what? 2018-04-02T15:08:57Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:09:01Z phoe: in handler-case, first you do a NLToC, then you execute the handler function. 2018-04-02T15:09:11Z Bike: sure. 2018-04-02T15:09:16Z phoe: in handler-case*, first you execute the handler function, and only then make a NLToC. 2018-04-02T15:09:20Z patrixl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:09:31Z Bike: so, handler bind but the syntax is like handler case? 2018-04-02T15:10:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:10:26Z phoe: yep, and there's a non-local exit afterwards by default unlike in handler-bind. 2018-04-02T15:11:34Z Bike: then how do you decline to handle the condition? or, you can't? 2018-04-02T15:11:41Z phoe: you don't 2018-04-02T15:11:59Z phoe: handler-case never declines after all 2018-04-02T15:13:15Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T15:13:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:15:30Z Shinmera: Syntax highlighting! https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVME53PT0= 2018-04-02T15:15:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:16:01Z phoe: <3 2018-04-02T15:16:01Z Shinmera is getting excited for his ELS talk 2018-04-02T15:16:25Z phoe: Wait, now you're using GLSL to have syntax highlighting in Lisp? 2018-04-02T15:16:41Z Shinmera: Hm? 2018-04-02T15:17:07Z phoe: I didn't get this screenshot. 2018-04-02T15:17:22Z Shinmera: It's a screenshot of my slide show application, which is written based on Trial. 2018-04-02T15:17:31Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2018-04-02T15:17:39Z phoe: Ooh. I see. And it has automatic Lisp highlighting? 2018-04-02T15:17:44Z Shinmera: It's showing an editor for lisp source. 2018-04-02T15:17:49Z phoe: I see! 2018-04-02T15:18:30Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T15:19:18Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:19:57Z onion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-02T15:21:20Z Shinmera: I don't want to reveal too much because that would spoil the surprise. But if you want to get spoiled, I talk about my plans (and show the development) on my Treehouse streams. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9MtJPRRP5KBH40SGCenztPW 2018-04-02T15:21:37Z Shinmera: Starts on Pt. 25 2018-04-02T15:23:36Z phoe: Bike: I actually went the lazy way and rewrote my stuff using handler-bind. 2018-04-02T15:24:56Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:27:14Z crsc quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-02T15:27:55Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:28:31Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:28:57Z jcowan: In case it's news to anyone, the Reddit 1.0 codebase is now published on Github. 2018-04-02T15:28:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:31:51Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T15:32:44Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:33:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:36:11Z phoe: jcowan: not anymore, I think. I've already raged a little too much over the quality of their code. 2018-04-02T15:36:38Z jcowan: They admitted it was crap at the time, typical technical-debt-ridden startup code 2018-04-02T15:36:59Z disumu joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:37:03Z jcowan: "[Expletive deleted]s can write Fortran in any language", even CL 2018-04-02T15:37:39Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:38:20Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:38:46Z jcowan: Out of curiosity, does anyone know what CL is used for at Google? When I was there (2007-10) it was no more than a rumor and a style guide. 2018-04-02T15:39:06Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly CCL during development and SBCL in production. 2018-04-02T15:39:21Z jcowan: Seems reasonable, but for what purpose(s)? 2018-04-02T15:39:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:39:34Z Shinmera: CCL compiles much faster. 2018-04-02T15:39:57Z Shinmera: And it's used for QPX, or Google Flights 2018-04-02T15:40:50Z jcowan: Ah. 2018-04-02T15:40:54Z jcowan: Thanks. 2018-04-02T15:41:14Z jcowan: I note that the published Intercal style guide ends in "When to use Intercal: Only if you absolutely have to! Good grief, has it really come to this?" 2018-04-02T15:41:24Z jcowan: rather than the internal version, which read "Never. What are you, high?" 2018-04-02T15:42:17Z pjb: Actually, I could list several cases where I would advise Intercal. 2018-04-02T15:42:59Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:43:50Z shka: pjb: so people won't be able to get anything done? 2018-04-02T15:44:11Z pjb: soma1257: the only career advise we could give you is to follow Paul Graham's steps: start up a company, write a nice web app in clisp, well your startup to yahoo or google for $100+M, become venture capitalist. 2018-04-02T15:44:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:44:41Z pjb: shka: win obfuscation contests, ensure long term employment, answer silly questions, and more. 2018-04-02T15:44:46Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T15:45:31Z pjb: soma1257: but if you want to earm more money, learn kotlin or swift and write mobile apps, it's where the easy money is nowadays. 2018-04-02T15:47:55Z fourier: wrong chat for career advice tbh, but pjb's advice is on point 2018-04-02T15:53:57Z crsc joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:54:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:56:52Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T15:57:04Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:57:07Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T15:59:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:01:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:02:13Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T16:03:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:04:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:05:47Z shka: pjb: i can do all those things with good old C pretty well ;-) 2018-04-02T16:07:57Z EvW2 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:08:11Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T16:08:11Z EvW2 is now known as EvW 2018-04-02T16:08:27Z pjb: shka: or even with lisp! :-) 2018-04-02T16:09:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:13:50Z rpg: aeth, Shinmera: you can build a lisp image with ASDF for delivery as an application. I think there's enough difference between systems that ASDF will *not* build you a command-line executable. It will get pretty close, though. 2018-04-02T16:13:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-02T16:14:42Z rpg: drmeister: I've used dribble in non-interactive experiments, or experiments that produce a truckload of output that I need to grovel over later. 2018-04-02T16:14:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:14:46Z Shinmera: rpg: I'm aware, but that does not first concatenate things into a single file. 2018-04-02T16:14:58Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T16:15:00Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-02T16:15:09Z rpg: Typically only for not-so-well structured systems where I don't want to bother figuring out how to redirect output myself. 2018-04-02T16:15:38Z rpg: Shinmera: Correct. 2018-04-02T16:15:57Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:16:06Z rpg: Shinmera: But I thought the question was about executable delivery, for which source delivery is not necessary, and might even be A Bad Thing. 2018-04-02T16:16:37Z Shinmera: I think aeth wanted to have things as a single source file for better optimisation. 2018-04-02T16:17:14Z Shinmera: As for binary deployments using ASDF, I think it's currently the best way to create deployments for Lisp applications. 2018-04-02T16:18:00Z Shinmera: It's a shame most people are unaware of it, though. 2018-04-02T16:18:11Z __rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:18:44Z jcowan mourns the loss of Interlisp culture with its image/logfile program representation 2018-04-02T16:19:45Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:20:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:21:51Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:22:07Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:24:11Z beach: jcowan: Patience. Some people are working on bringing it back. 2018-04-02T16:24:30Z rpg: jcowan: ? You can still build images for your programs. It's not clear what are the limits on shipping them around, though, because of possible incompatibilities with shared libraries where you deploy. 2018-04-02T16:24:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:24:58Z rpg: Or do you mean something like Smalltalk, with its "there is no source file" philosophy? 2018-04-02T16:25:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:25:35Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:25:54Z beach: The latter was my interpretation. 2018-04-02T16:26:12Z jcowan: Exactly. Interlisp and Smalltalk of course are two sides of one coin 2018-04-02T16:26:56Z dim quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2018-04-02T16:26:59Z rpg: I had to work with some code from... that expert systems vendor -- I think an outgrowth of LMI or possibly symbolics -- they had no source files. I really hated it, because they used it to chain you to them 2018-04-02T16:27:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:27:23Z jcowan nods 2018-04-02T16:27:29Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:27:48Z jcowan: Any technology can be used for evil. 2018-04-02T16:28:47Z shka: "there is no source file" requires bucket load of stuff to work 2018-04-02T16:29:04Z shka: like diff tools, version controls… 2018-04-02T16:29:07Z jcowan: Sure. 2018-04-02T16:29:21Z jcowan: Interlisp specialized in those tools rather than in enhancing the actual language. 2018-04-02T16:29:47Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:29:55Z jcowan: (I worked for a while with Lyric, the first full implementation of CL-IL coexistence) 2018-04-02T16:30:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:30:44Z jcowan: And of course there is a source file, it's a log. 2018-04-02T16:30:57Z jcowan: But I agree that you don't want to work directly with that. 2018-04-02T16:31:33Z rpg: I can't imagine working without `diff`, imperfect though it is. Or the ability to work with git. Using jupyter now, which has a similar feature (bug?) 2018-04-02T16:31:46Z jcowan: beach: What are you referring to specifically? 2018-04-02T16:33:29Z beach: jcowan: This: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2018-04-02T16:34:01Z jcowan: It's clear from reading the JLS that the Java people expected classes to be stored in a database in production, rather than in the file system. 2018-04-02T16:34:05Z jcowan: beach: thanks, queued to read 2018-04-02T16:35:05Z phoe: jcowan: you can commit a popular heresy and treat the FS as a semistructured database 2018-04-02T16:35:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:35:20Z jcowan: Oh yes, I have 2018-04-02T16:35:36Z jcowan: built a rather large bespoke CMS storing all the text in individual files 2018-04-02T16:36:02Z jcowan: It is after all pretty robust technology. Today I might have used SQLite instead. 2018-04-02T16:36:07Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:36:11Z beach: rpg: Things like diff and git sort of work, but only because we represent everything as text. And even then, it doesn't work that well. It would be interesting to investigate how similar tools could be created for more complex data like structured documents, graphs, etc. 2018-04-02T16:38:36Z beach: rpg: But you are right of course. Given that we do not have any tools that work on more complex objects, then it is hard to imagine doing without those tools today. 2018-04-02T16:38:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:39:14Z rpg: beach: Agreed, but I am pessimistic since how long has there been microsoft word? And I still can't put a word document in git and track modfications. 2018-04-02T16:39:39Z rpg: or powerpoint which consumes a dismaying amount of my output 2018-04-02T16:40:20Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:40:22Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean. 2018-04-02T16:40:43Z rpg: I don't know, there may be some for-pay system from MS that handles this kind of guff. 2018-04-02T16:40:47Z pagnol: is there a way to just export/publish everything when defining a package with defpackage? 2018-04-02T16:41:10Z beach: pagnol: "everything"? 2018-04-02T16:41:15Z pagnol: while prototyping I find it tedious to keep everything in sync with defpackage 2018-04-02T16:41:20Z beach: pagnol: Why on earth would you want to do that? 2018-04-02T16:41:35Z shka: pagnol: you CAN iterate over all symbols in package and export but i have no idea why would you want to do that 2018-04-02T16:41:45Z beach: pagnol: Like if you do (let ((x ...)) would you want X to be exported? 2018-04-02T16:42:08Z fourier: rpg: you can track modifications in word 2018-04-02T16:42:24Z fourier: it has some mode you can turn on for this 2018-04-02T16:42:33Z rpg: fourier: Yes, but not in a way that subversion, git, etc. can use 2018-04-02T16:42:40Z pagnol: of course not 2018-04-02T16:42:41Z pagnol: ... 2018-04-02T16:42:56Z jcowan: you could write some git porcelain that unpacks .docx/.pptx/etc., which is basically zipped XML, and store the individual files, reassembling them on checkout. 2018-04-02T16:43:00Z shka: pagnol: just use package::symbol if you want to write unit test or something 2018-04-02T16:43:01Z beach: pagnol: So perhaps you should define "everything"? 2018-04-02T16:43:08Z fourier: but it is self contained and you just give someone else a file and he will read these modifications 2018-04-02T16:43:11Z jdz: fourier: the "track changes" thing does not exactly work when different people do changes independently. 2018-04-02T16:43:15Z pagnol quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-02T16:43:15Z rpg: my colleagues all make horrible directories with my-final-report-v287.docx and similar snot in them. 2018-04-02T16:43:55Z fourier: yes it assumes sequental access to the document 2018-04-02T16:43:58Z jcowan: people who work in hierarchical companies can't use hierarchical file systems 2018-04-02T16:43:59Z jdz: rpg: I know some people who do than with their software projects. 2018-04-02T16:44:51Z fourier: for simultanious access ms invented sharepoint. so everyone who is workng with management documents has to use it in big corps... 2018-04-02T16:44:53Z rpg: jcowan: It's not that, it's because they can't easily pull out old versions to diff them: it's easier to leave all the versions around and use compare revisions. 2018-04-02T16:45:22Z rpg: jcowan: My company is (a) not hierarchical and (b) staffed substantially with CS Ph.D.s who are just fine with tree structured directories, thank you very much 2018-04-02T16:45:36Z jcowan: Glad to hear it 2018-04-02T16:45:47Z onion joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:45:51Z rpg: fourier: SharePoint is kind of like a wiki, but with everything done wrong. 2018-04-02T16:45:52Z jcowan: the hierarchy remains where it belongs, governing things, not people 2018-04-02T16:46:36Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:46:41Z rpg: but this is a big detour from talking about interlisp and smalltalk! Just my explanation for why languages with no file representation scare me! 2018-04-02T16:46:56Z rpg: gotta run... 2018-04-02T16:47:16Z fourier: rpg: not really, it has a lot of stuff, but what I've used it is to work with the documents simultaniously with other managers. so they were normal doc and excel documents, just with versions, checkin/checkout like in vcs 2018-04-02T16:47:21Z jcowan: I have in fact taken Word documents, unzipped them as described, made global changes to styling, rezipped them, et voila. 2018-04-02T16:50:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:51:34Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T16:52:24Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:52:28Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T16:53:34Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:54:02Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T16:55:01Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T16:55:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:55:29Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-02T16:59:16Z jcowan: beach: I note that the beginning of that document says Unix was designed to run without an MMU, but this is not true 2018-04-02T17:00:50Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:01:07Z cgay: rpg: Intellicorp, maybe. (re: 12:26 EDT) 2018-04-02T17:01:11Z siraben` joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:03:05Z cgay is just throwing out the name of a random expert systems provider related to Symbolics and no specific knowledge of their lack of source files or lack of lack of source files, as the case may be. 2018-04-02T17:03:27Z pjb: jcowan: it's true that early unices could run without a MMU, and the first one didn't have one. THe PDP-7 didn't have a MMU, and The 11/20 lacks any kind of memory protection hardware unless retrofitted with a KS-11 memory mapping add-on. 2018-04-02T17:03:58Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T17:04:39Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T17:07:06Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:11:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T17:12:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:16:31Z onion is now known as whoman 2018-04-02T17:16:59Z whoman is now known as onion 2018-04-02T17:17:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T17:18:44Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:19:45Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:20:16Z pjb: rpg: the problem is that files are sequences of bytes (or at best, sequences of characters); therefore diff provides you with a difference in characters, which is not meaningful for software development purposes. Then you have all kind of problems, such as commits with only indentation changes, or worse, commits mixing indentation changes and semantic modifications. 2018-04-02T17:21:09Z pjb: rpg: I'm not saying that a system built on structured code "data bases" would be better, but it has at least an opportunity to make it better. At least, indentation is left to the pretty printer… 2018-04-02T17:23:18Z omilu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T17:23:19Z ryanbw quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-02T17:24:39Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:35:51Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:36:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:42:38Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T17:44:44Z semz: Does Slime use the FFI internally for interprocess shenanigans? I'm trying to figure out the cause of a segfault. 2018-04-02T17:44:58Z cgay: Isn't it all a matter of tools? With text files you can always apply a reparse+pprint step before diffing, for example. Or parse and diff the ASTs or whatever. It's just that there's a boatload of text-based tools lying around and the other tools would necessarily be more language-specific, I think? (Sorry if I missed some context.) 2018-04-02T17:46:17Z SaganMan quit (Quit: laters) 2018-04-02T17:47:31Z Xach: semz: not especially 2018-04-02T17:47:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:48:51Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T17:50:31Z semz: Xach, are you somewhat familiar with Slime's internals and could you help me track down the cause? 2018-04-02T17:51:03Z Xach: semz: no to the former, maybe to the latter! 2018-04-02T17:51:28Z Xach: semz: what implementation and platform are you using? 2018-04-02T17:51:34Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T17:51:46Z semz: ECL on Linux with musl. All on newest version. 2018-04-02T17:52:01Z semz: Problem is that starting Slime sometimes (but not always!) produces a segfault 2018-04-02T17:52:29Z phoe: semz: crash dump tells you anything? the stack trace especially 2018-04-02T17:58:24Z Xach: ah, sorry, can't help at all, I don't use ecl. 2018-04-02T18:00:06Z phoe: #ecl does use ecl though 2018-04-02T18:00:32Z semz: phoe: ECL seems to catch the segfault, so I don't think there even is a dump. It doesn't crash itself and just returns to the toplevel. Then (again, only sometimes) the connection dies out of nowhere. 2018-04-02T18:01:17Z semz: it's really bizarre and definitely doesn't happen on glibc 2018-04-02T18:01:59Z semz: maybe i'll try #ecl, thanks 2018-04-02T18:02:24Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T18:02:51Z khrbt: semz: can you share details on how you set up your system so someone can try to reproduce what you are seeing? 2018-04-02T18:04:19Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T18:04:44Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:04:44Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-02T18:04:44Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:06:51Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:07:12Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:08:19Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T18:10:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:11:32Z Quetzal2 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2018-04-02T18:11:32Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:11:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:15:16Z semz: khrbt: Sure. It's a clean install of Emacs (25.3.1, from Gentoo's musl overlay), Slime (2.20) and ECL (16.1.3). Musl is on 1.1.19. 2018-04-02T18:15:18Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:15:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:19:14Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:20:33Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T18:21:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:21:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:22:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:22:40Z makomo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T18:22:51Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:23:21Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:24:21Z equwal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T18:24:57Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:25:45Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:28:47Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:29:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T18:30:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:31:05Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:33:58Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:35:46Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:36:13Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-02T18:37:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:37:35Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:38:02Z rpg: cgay: I think you were right: intellicorp. They did a bunch of work in the petroleum industry back when I was working at the Honeywell labv. 2018-04-02T18:38:48Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T18:39:11Z rpg: semz: Is there some particular reason that ECL is appropriate to what you are doing? 2018-04-02T18:39:20Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:40:03Z phoe: semz: you might also do a trick 2018-04-02T18:40:29Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:40:30Z semz: rpg: It was the easiest to get. Glibc can't statically link so the bootstrap binaries for say SBCL don't work on my system. 2018-04-02T18:40:56Z phoe: get your ECL ready to load slime, attach a debugger to it, try loading slime. you'll get the sigsegv and will be able to print its stacktrace. 2018-04-02T18:41:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:41:29Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T18:41:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:41:42Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:42:38Z rpg: semz: I think you will find that you will be happier using Clozure CL or SBCL. ECL is a tool with a very specific niche and in my experience does not work well as a general purpose CL implementation. 2018-04-02T18:43:35Z rpg: It has many idiosyncracies, and code of mine that really exercises CL makes it error out all the time, despite working successfully on ACL, CCL, and SBCL. 2018-04-02T18:44:08Z rpg: ECL and ABCL are in my "special purpose" list, and clisp in my "just don't." 2018-04-02T18:44:17Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:45:31Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:45:31Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T18:47:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:49:43Z Xach: If the primary goal is to get CL stuff done, ecl can be a tough start. But if you're playing around and aren't under time pressure or whatever, trying ecl and reporting bugs is helpful in making it better. 2018-04-02T18:51:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:57:34Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-02T18:57:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:58:15Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T18:59:35Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T18:59:38Z rpg: Xach: True, but I guess I would suggest getting your footing using a more normal CL would be a better experience. 2018-04-02T19:02:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:02:34Z puchacz: I think clisp is not maintained. 2018-04-02T19:02:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:03:17Z rpg: puchacz: It's maintained, but for whatever reason, it hasn't been possible for the project to manage a release in years and years. 2018-04-02T19:03:41Z puchacz: rpg: I see 2018-04-02T19:04:04Z rpg: I don't have the energy to build it from source, but I hear that the head version is much better than the release 2018-04-02T19:04:12Z puchacz: SBCL has monthly releases, ABCL maybe once a year, clisp, no release for a long time as you say 2018-04-02T19:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:05:19Z rpg: CCL is also quite active. ECL is still, AFAICT, recovering from loss of its main maintainer and need to restructure as a project 2018-04-02T19:05:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:06:23Z puchacz: what's the benefit of CCL over say SBCL? 2018-04-02T19:06:34Z puchacz: I only used SBCL, ABCL and Lispworks 2018-04-02T19:07:34Z dlowe: it has some very nice inspection and debugging. 2018-04-02T19:07:45Z dlowe: I think sbcl has closed some of the gap over the years. 2018-04-02T19:08:10Z puchacz: ah, ok. SBCL never had stepper except for trivial cases 2018-04-02T19:09:54Z puchacz: however it has useful debug information on stack in slime 2018-04-02T19:11:03Z pierpa: Many years ago to build clisp all the energy required was to type 'make'. Is it not so anymore? 2018-04-02T19:11:27Z pjb: puchacz: you think wrong. clisp is maintained. 2018-04-02T19:11:40Z puchacz: pjb: I was corrected already :) 2018-04-02T19:12:00Z pjb: it cannot be stressed enough. clisp is maintained. 2018-04-02T19:12:20Z puchacz: okidoki. are you a committer? 2018-04-02T19:12:35Z pjb: I'm not. Not enough time for that :-( 2018-04-02T19:13:59Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T19:14:08Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:14:22Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-02T19:14:59Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:15:29Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:15:30Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:15:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:16:10Z Xach: pierpa: I haven't found that to be the case for many, many years. I always have to fetch some extra libraries. 2018-04-02T19:17:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:18:36Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2018-04-02T19:18:37Z pierpa: Good to know 2018-04-02T19:19:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:19:39Z random-nick quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-02T19:20:41Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:22:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:23:16Z equwal` joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:24:41Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:28:02Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:28:05Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T19:29:56Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:30:30Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:31:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:38:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:39:01Z puchacz: btw, is ABCL good enough for 24/7 server? I know SBCL is a default go-to Lisp for this, but if I ever need to interact with large amount of Java? 2018-04-02T19:39:20Z puchacz: I know it has no delivery like SBCL 2018-04-02T19:39:44Z puchacz: and I only use it at work to tinker and interact with existing software 2018-04-02T19:39:51Z jcowan_: pjb: Yes, if you count PDP-7 Unix. The PDP-11/20 ran only Mini-Unix, not Unix itself 2018-04-02T19:40:01Z phoe: puchacz: ELS 2016 had a lightning talk where AFAIR there was a Java application deployed to production with ABCL included. AFAIR it was a server application, but I might not know the details. 2018-04-02T19:40:05Z phoe: easye: ^ 2018-04-02T19:40:15Z phoe: puchacz: easye was the speaker, he could have some details. 2018-04-02T19:40:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T19:40:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:40:41Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:40:46Z puchacz: thanks. easye, are you around :) ? 2018-04-02T19:40:59Z rpg: puchacz: I have found ABCL to be substantially slower than conventional lisps. I have used it very successfully as a way of scripting a Java application, but I don't think I would use it as my "main" lisp 2018-04-02T19:41:03Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2018-04-02T19:41:08Z phoe: puchacz: this is IRC, he'll respond in due time. 2018-04-02T19:41:11Z phoe: (: 2018-04-02T19:41:20Z puchacz: sure :) 2018-04-02T19:42:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:43:08Z puchacz: rpg: yes, I think it is slower especially around string processing. I parsed logs with it. 2018-04-02T19:43:27Z puchacz: and yes, my main server Lisp is SBCL 2018-04-02T19:45:58Z puchacz: ABCL is also the only Lisp I can have at work.... it is just jar to be downloaded. but I can't have quicklisp because our proxy is authenticated 2018-04-02T19:46:26Z puchacz: in Eclipse for Java I have to put my corporate username and password for updates to work etc. 2018-04-02T19:46:53Z puchacz: so I had to download Lisp libraries one by one, manually. 2018-04-02T19:47:24Z puchacz: it would help if we had a single directory with all current quicklisp bz2 or whatever libraries 2018-04-02T19:47:36Z phoe: something like a standalone quicklisp instance? 2018-04-02T19:47:38Z puchacz: not descriptions, just links for odwloading 2018-04-02T19:47:40Z puchacz: yes 2018-04-02T19:47:49Z jcowan_: Are mkcl and cmucl still maintained? 2018-04-02T19:48:13Z Xach: cmucl is still maintained. mkcl not as much. 2018-04-02T19:48:26Z Xach: puchacz: you could bundle every library into a quicklisp bundle, i suppose 2018-04-02T19:48:38Z puchacz: Xach: I don't understand.... 2018-04-02T19:48:40Z random-nick: what happened to that other armed bear common lisp? 2018-04-02T19:48:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:48:49Z random-nick: the one which didn't use java 2018-04-02T19:48:55Z jcowan_: random-nick: On CLR, you mean? 2018-04-02T19:49:06Z random-nick: no, native 2018-04-02T19:49:18Z phoe: random-nick: huh? you mean xcl? 2018-04-02T19:49:22Z Xach: random-nick: I don't think there was something like that. 2018-04-02T19:49:33Z phoe: https://github.com/gnooth/xcl last commit 10 months ago 2018-04-02T19:49:37Z random-nick: http://armedbear.org/ 2018-04-02T19:49:50Z Xach: puchacz: quicklisp can export library sources into a directory and set up for loading without quicklisp. 2018-04-02T19:49:51Z phoe: ...previous commit was in 2011 2018-04-02T19:50:27Z puchacz: Xach: but it assumes my local quicklisp has internet connection, doesn't it? 2018-04-02T19:50:47Z Xach: puchacz: i mean make the bundle on a connected quicklisp system, transfer it to the unconnected system. 2018-04-02T19:50:59Z Xach: transfer the resulting archive of the entire bundle, that is 2018-04-02T19:51:17Z puchacz: Xach: I see. so make it at home, then publish it somewhere and download at work 2018-04-02T19:51:34Z Xach: right 2018-04-02T19:51:34Z phoe: Xach: do you make it possible to somehow download a whole quicklisp dist at once via a web browser? 2018-04-02T19:51:42Z Xach: phoe: not via a web browser. 2018-04-02T19:52:20Z phoe: welp. a link to a whole archive file would be fun for that since web browsers are allowed via corporate proxies. 2018-04-02T19:52:21Z puchacz: thanks, good to know 2018-04-02T19:52:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T19:54:32Z didi joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:55:16Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-04-02T19:56:41Z didi: Can I define a structure of :type list that the last slot is a rest at some point? e.g. (mystructure-rest (make-mystructure 1 2 3 4)) => (3 4) 2018-04-02T19:57:41Z pjb: didi: yes. 2018-04-02T19:58:06Z pjb: but you will have to implement mystructure-rest and make-mystructure yourself. 2018-04-02T19:58:06Z didi: pjb: Cool. Can you write me an example? 2018-04-02T19:58:11Z jcowan is amused by how ./configure checks for fork(), and if that succeeds, checks whether fork() actually forks. 2018-04-02T19:58:24Z didi: pjb: Oh well. 2018-04-02T19:58:42Z Bike: didi: defstruct with :type basically just defines some basic wrapper functions. 2018-04-02T19:58:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:58:59Z jcowan: gaah, life with a space in $HOME is just maddening 2018-04-02T19:59:04Z didi: Bike: oic. 2018-04-02T19:59:10Z Bike: (defun make-mystructure (a b &rest r) (list* a b r)) (defun mystructure-a (o) (car o)) (defun mystructure-r (o) (cddr o)) 2018-04-02T19:59:16Z Bike: that kinda thing 2018-04-02T19:59:22Z didi: Bike: Thank you. 2018-04-02T19:59:56Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-02T19:59:56Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-02T19:59:56Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:00:30Z pjb: didi: https://hastebin.com/oxilagaraf.lisp 2018-04-02T20:00:38Z didi: pjb: Thanks. 2018-04-02T20:01:00Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:01:00Z pjb: I would use %make-mystructure because you may have other options such as :named, etc… 2018-04-02T20:01:11Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:01:33Z didi nods 2018-04-02T20:03:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:04:56Z oleo: oleo: is there a way to get local files processed like html for display purposes ? 2018-04-02T20:04:56Z oleo: i think drakma:http-request does not do "file:///blah" 2018-04-02T20:05:59Z Bike: drakma doesn't do html 2018-04-02T20:06:05Z Bike: it does http that's why it says "http request" 2018-04-02T20:07:09Z pjb: there is at least one html processor written in CL, but I don't remember its name. Probably too old, and not supporting javascript, so basically useless. 2018-04-02T20:08:03Z pjb: cliki has a better memory than me. 2018-04-02T20:12:22Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:13:31Z rpg: oleo: You could use portable allegroserve (paserve) 2018-04-02T20:18:06Z ja-barr quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-02T20:18:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:20:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:20:31Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:20:55Z Bindler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T20:22:42Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T20:22:56Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:23:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:28:57Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:29:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:29:50Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-02T20:32:34Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:33:33Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:33:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:34:13Z pjb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2018-04-02T20:42:18Z equwal` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T20:42:29Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T20:43:29Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:43:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:45:21Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:47:38Z aeth: rpg: Shinmera's right. There are three levels of compiler information. Function (compiler can do everything), compilation unit (compiler can do fancy tricks), everything else (compiler can't do that much). Generally, file == compilation unit, so putting everything in a file *should* in general make things faster. It could slow some things down by adding type checks, but, in general it's better for a final executable. 2018-04-02T20:48:04Z aeth: Of course, it kills a lot of the live coding so it's not good except as a build step. 2018-04-02T20:49:09Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:49:15Z aeth: It also seems to not work with certain libraries. I'm going to have to think about how to replace them to make it work. At the moment, it only works if I load the all-in-one file after already loading the system normally, because CL culture overrelies on fragile global *foo* variables that can break in cases like this, and in threads, etc. 2018-04-02T20:49:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:49:35Z aeth: (CL is the only programming language culture I know of that doesn't shun globals.) 2018-04-02T20:50:45Z onion: stomach flora biocolture 2018-04-02T20:50:48Z Shinmera: The problem isn't global variables but simply compile-time dependencies. 2018-04-02T20:51:08Z aeth: Dynamically scoped globals slow down your code by killing pretty much all compiler optimizations. And they are problematic enough that they have to be earmuffed by convention. 2018-04-02T20:51:21Z Shinmera: They're not problematic. 2018-04-02T20:51:30Z Shinmera: The earmuffs are simply there because they behave differently. 2018-04-02T20:51:53Z rpg: aeth: Is putting everything in a single file equivalent to WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT, or not? I don't claim to know. 2018-04-02T20:52:04Z aeth: They're not particularly problematic in single threaded programs when earmuffed. They are absolutely problematic when not earmuffed because you'll accidentally have a dynamic variable when you expect a lexical variable if you do not earmuff. 2018-04-02T20:52:32Z Shinmera: That's not a problem with dynamic variables in and of themselves. 2018-04-02T20:52:37Z aeth: They *do* kill compiler optimizations, though, because they could be literally anything. 2018-04-02T20:52:46Z Shinmera: Macros aren't "problematic" either just because you can't funcall them. 2018-04-02T20:53:09Z aeth: I'm not sure even a compiler with global program analysis could make dynamic variables fast because you could redefine a function at runtime or in the REPL or whatever to suddenly set that value. 2018-04-02T20:53:28Z aeth: s/dynamic variables/global dynamic variables/ 2018-04-02T20:54:58Z aeth: I used to use globals as a quick hack when I didn't want to (at the moment) rewrite the function signature of a bunch of functions along the call stack, but... I got unexpected results because they don't necessarily sync between threads the way I thought they might. Now I essentially never use them, except for input/output/etc. where a bad value isn't the end of the world. 2018-04-02T20:55:59Z aeth: Rebinding *standard-output* (or similar things) seems to be the main use for them. 2018-04-02T20:56:19Z amerlyq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T20:56:36Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:57:36Z didi: I like globals. I usually use them to store data that I manipulate using the REPL. 2018-04-02T20:58:33Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T20:58:34Z aeth: Well, I can use them *in the REPL* rather than in the program, such as (defparameter *window* (function-call-that-returns-a-window)) and then I can use method calls on the window object 2018-04-02T20:58:46Z equwal` joined #lisp 2018-04-02T20:59:01Z onion: aeth, can use CLOS objects to solve that sync problem ? 2018-04-02T20:59:39Z didi: aeth: I use defvar for that. 2018-04-02T20:59:51Z disumu quit (Quit: ...) 2018-04-02T21:00:19Z aeth: didi: Iirc: defparameter overwrites it, though. If I do defvar, wouldn't the first one have to be the defvar, and then subsequent ones setf? 2018-04-02T21:00:30Z aeth: Then I can't use SLIME history to be lazy 2018-04-02T21:00:57Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:01:06Z aeth: onion: I think at that point it no longer becomes simpler, though. 2018-04-02T21:01:09Z didi: aeth: Yeap. It's more of a concept thing, I read. defparameter if for program definitions, defvar for variables. 2018-04-02T21:01:16Z didi: s/if/is 2018-04-02T21:01:47Z aeth: In the REPL I always use defparameter because defparameter is what I expect (especially since I mostly use backwards history search in the REPL) 2018-04-02T21:02:13Z onion: hm yeah. this is also something that writing a C lisp runtime with SDL , could solve. for eg. it would take care of any globals that need to be around, like the SDL window, audio context 2018-04-02T21:02:27Z _death: when there's pervasive context, use of special variables makes sense.. also makes for a much better experience when using the repl.. other languages tend not to have special variables, so there's no comparison 2018-04-02T21:02:31Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:02:49Z didi: aeth: I usually use defparameter in programs when I hardcode paths. 2018-04-02T21:03:52Z aeth: onion: I put the things that need to be around in one window object (e.g. the SDL window, the GL context, etc.). 2018-04-02T21:04:25Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:04:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:04:52Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:05:16Z aeth: It's very, very easy to wind up with way too many things in general, so I heavily use both CLOS objects and structs all over the place, and probably need at least twice as many as I do use because there are just too many things. I think at one point, one function said something like "function foo expects twenty-one arguments but only twenty were provided", but I think I've halved it since then 2018-04-02T21:05:44Z aeth: Yeah, globals could probably help, too, but it doesn't actually tidy up the mess: it puts the mess in 20+ globals 2018-04-02T21:06:27Z didi: aeth: Maybe you need more clumping? I mean, aggregate values into a single concept. 2018-04-02T21:06:38Z _death: well, maybe the solution isn't globals in that case, but redesign 2018-04-02T21:06:57Z aeth: _death, didi: It's hard, though, because large applications just have a ton of stuff. 2018-04-02T21:07:03Z aeth: There's a ridiculous amount of state. 2018-04-02T21:07:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:07:28Z onion: aeth: i think that is what i will do as well. i only really need the GL/AL context and SDL stuff 2018-04-02T21:07:49Z onion: ...not that any apps make more than one SDL window or anything else... overdesigned i think =) 2018-04-02T21:07:58Z msb joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:08:31Z aeth: onion: That's one reason I write my own stuff instead of using libraries. Libraries have to handle every case, my own stuff on the raw CFFI only need to handle my case, and are about equally verbose. 2018-04-02T21:08:45Z aeth: More than one SDL window? Nope! I can say that will absolutely never be permitted, at least for now. 2018-04-02T21:08:56Z aeth: If I didn't build everything heavily integrated, that just couldn't work. 2018-04-02T21:09:22Z aeth: If you handle more than 1 use case when there is more than 1 possibility, you will never get past that area, and you probably won't test all code paths. 2018-04-02T21:09:23Z onion: im just saying it seems like an overdesign for SDL2 to just about force globals "just in case" someone needed more SDL in the same thread 2018-04-02T21:09:40Z _death: aeth: yes, good design is hard.. btw, curious, what do you consider "large" to be 2018-04-02T21:09:42Z onion: and yeah 2018-04-02T21:10:15Z aeth: _death: In CL, large seems to start at around 7k. I'm absolutely astonished when I see some CL things above 100k (SBCL?) because that's probably equivalent to about 5M in other languages. 2018-04-02T21:10:49Z aeth: Although I expect that when it's finally working it will be around 25k. I spent about 2 years around 5k, though, because with macros it's hard to actually have forward progress in line count. 2018-04-02T21:13:26Z aeth: But it's not really line count in CL, it's what you're doing. There's a lot of stylistic freedom. 2018-04-02T21:13:51Z _death: right, good design may be hard, but good design to lisp standards is harder ;) 2018-04-02T21:14:01Z Shinmera: Doing a primitive line count on my projects directory (which doesn't have everything) I get around 200'000 lines. Neat. 2018-04-02T21:14:13Z rme: I think CCL has about 400kloc (lisp files only). 2018-04-02T21:15:03Z rme: Looks like about another 70kloc of C and assembly. 2018-04-02T21:15:11Z rme: I consider that pretty big. 2018-04-02T21:16:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:16:41Z aeth: Running "cloc ." on my outdated SBCL git checkout (cloc cuts out comments and blank lines, but not the docstrings) says SBCL is 401130 lines of Lisp and 26921 of C and 3817 of C headers and 3681 of sh and 2382 of asm 2018-04-02T21:17:15Z aeth: Without cutting out the comments and blank lines, it looks closer to 500k for Lisp 2018-04-02T21:17:24Z onion: easier to have worse design and also better design, with the stylistic freedom 2018-04-02T21:17:27Z aeth: SBCL might be the largest Lisp application. 2018-04-02T21:18:10Z aeth: (well, in public) 2018-04-02T21:18:35Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:18:40Z dmh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-02T21:18:41Z aeth: I think the really massive Lisp applications are Lisp implementations and Maxima. 2018-04-02T21:18:53Z dmh joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:19:15Z Shinmera: QPX 2018-04-02T21:19:17Z onion computes emacs src tree 2018-04-02T21:19:43Z aeth: Well, of course most Lisp in the wild is Emacs Lisp, and probably a lot of that eventually makes its way into Emacs itself. 2018-04-02T21:20:10Z onion: 1,336M lisp ..... 2018-04-02T21:20:15Z aeth: (and iirc cloc doesn't distinguish between EL and CL, so it might not be 100% accurate for projects that have Emacs modes in their source tree) 2018-04-02T21:20:33Z onion: yea 2018-04-02T21:20:43Z onion: 282K C 2018-04-02T21:20:51Z onion: +58K headers 2018-04-02T21:20:54Z aeth: Emacs Lisp isn't particularly well-written Lisp, though. In general. I think a lot of it is working around the limitations of the language, and a lot of it is Lisp written by people who have no CL or Scheme experience. 2018-04-02T21:21:05Z onion: yea, and old style lisp 2018-04-02T21:21:09Z aeth: I'm not sure how the standard of the core compare to some of the horrifying add-ons whose source I've read, though 2018-04-02T21:21:24Z onion: lots of random stuff is included too, random emacs games and easter eggs etc 2018-04-02T21:21:37Z aeth: Modern CL probably uses more macros than EL, too. 2018-04-02T21:21:43Z aeth: And other things that get the line count down. 2018-04-02T21:22:11Z onion counts SWI-Prolog 2018-04-02T21:22:28Z onion: yea, not sure if ocmments were counted 2018-04-02T21:22:33Z aeth: If you're normally a C programmer and you write an EL file, you're probably not going to abstract as much as a seasoned CL programmer writing a CL application. And many common abstractions might introduce too much of a runtime penalty in EL vs. in SBCL or CCL. 2018-04-02T21:24:01Z aeth: If you know how to make an AOT compiled CL perform, you can get away with writing a lot of "zero cost" abstractions that probably don't work in other Lisps. 2018-04-02T21:24:03Z onion: ECL: 64K lisp, 500K C ^_^ 2018-04-02T21:24:21Z onion: yes, definately 2018-04-02T21:24:27Z aeth: onion: Sounds like a lot of ECL could be moved to CL 2018-04-02T21:24:46Z phoe: onion: it's actually been the other way, for performance. 2018-04-02T21:24:47Z onion: eh oh? how come? 2018-04-02T21:24:58Z phoe: ...at least from what I've heard 2018-04-02T21:25:03Z onion: cant we write C with CL now, with ECL? ^_^ 2018-04-02T21:25:18Z jcowan: Yes, but it's still C, not really CL. 2018-04-02T21:25:22Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:25:30Z bjorkintosh: but the input is CL! 2018-04-02T21:25:33Z onion: i did cl-bench on SBCL and ECL the other day , i dont see what it gains; they could just compile with SBCL. =) 2018-04-02T21:25:51Z onion: hm , yeah =P 2018-04-02T21:25:55Z aeth: I generate GLSL strings from CL macros at compile time. It probably wouldn't take *that* much to also support C given the major similarities. 2018-04-02T21:25:57Z phoe: onion: ECL is compilable as a static library into C projects, and SBCL can't do that. 2018-04-02T21:26:21Z onion: hm that is a nice feature 2018-04-02T21:26:22Z _death: onion: many of those 500K is generated C 2018-04-02T21:26:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:26:37Z aeth: _death: Why isn't it generated as part of the build process? 2018-04-02T21:26:43Z onion: _death: ohhh. my bad, i should have done 'make clean' 2018-04-02T21:26:49Z phoe: xD 2018-04-02T21:26:51Z aeth: onion: Ah, maybe it is 2018-04-02T21:26:55Z _death: aeth: dunno, maybe it dosen't change that much 2018-04-02T21:27:09Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-02T21:27:13Z _death: maybe it wasn't generated by ECL developers 2018-04-02T21:27:19Z onion: 210K C 2018-04-02T21:28:13Z aeth: Is it C with { on its own line or C with { at the end of the line? 2018-04-02T21:28:18Z aeth: That makes a huge difference. 2018-04-02T21:28:18Z onion: i would prefer one tyrannical implementation 2018-04-02T21:28:48Z phoe: onion: you have one, it's called SBCL 2018-04-02T21:28:49Z _death: onion: now, ECL also includes a bunch of 3rd party modules, like gmp/libffi/bdwgc 2018-04-02T21:28:58Z onion: i wonder if 'cloc' could be configured to ignore single-character lines =) 2018-04-02T21:29:09Z aeth: onion: SBCL is an order of magnitude more popular than CCL, which is an order of magnitude more popular than the rest. 2018-04-02T21:29:17Z onion: _death: is that good? can SBCL still include those ? 2018-04-02T21:29:24Z aeth: If you cover SBCL and CCL, you cover most people. 2018-04-02T21:29:35Z onion: i am thinking why not SBCL do the things ECL can, or somehow minimally. or hmm 2018-04-02T21:29:44Z phoe: onion: it does not need to include those 2018-04-02T21:29:47Z onion: aeth: ah =) 2018-04-02T21:30:01Z phoe: it has its own implementations of math, FFI, and garbage collection 2018-04-02T21:30:08Z onion: ECL does ? 2018-04-02T21:30:25Z phoe: SBCL does, so it does not need to depend on gmp/libffi/bdwgc 2018-04-02T21:30:38Z onion: oh, sbcl, yeah. aside from being able to make a little runtime library 2018-04-02T21:30:58Z onion: er static lib* 2018-04-02T21:31:07Z aeth: Personally, I only try to support SBCL, CCL, and ECL. The other popular FOSS ones are CLISP and ABCL, which are both problematic in various ways when making assumptions that work on the rest (especially on SBCL and CCL). And for LispWorks/Allegro, well, they can always pay me if they want me to support their really expensive implementations. Or at least give me free copies. 2018-04-02T21:31:30Z onion: = ) fair enough 2018-04-02T21:31:57Z aeth: It's probably hard to judge the relative popularity of the long tail but still used implementations (ECL, ABCL, CLISP, LW, Allegro) 2018-04-02T21:32:20Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:32:44Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:33:19Z equwal` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:33:37Z onion: i've read some of their geneology 2018-04-02T21:33:41Z onion: SBCL from kyoto afaik 2018-04-02T21:33:43Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:33:49Z onion: (i have affinity to japanese things) 2018-04-02T21:33:59Z phoe: SBCL is a fork of CMUCL 2018-04-02T21:34:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:34:25Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:34:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:34:51Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:35:11Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-02T21:35:33Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:38:21Z void_pointer joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:38:28Z aeth: Oh, I might have been unclear. SBCL is an order of magnitude more popular than CCL, which is an order of magnitude more popular than any remaining individual implementation... Not necessarily an order of magnitude more popular than all of the rest combined. 2018-04-02T21:38:55Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:38:58Z aeth: I suspect that getting more exact numbers than that relation would be hard. 2018-04-02T21:39:24Z _death: someone should start writing libraries exclusively for GCL ;) 2018-04-02T21:39:26Z jmercouris: CCL is great 2018-04-02T21:39:27Z aeth: And no matter what it'd probably undercount commercial implementations, which are kind of in their own world. 2018-04-02T21:39:32Z jmercouris: I actually prefer it to SBCL 2018-04-02T21:39:32Z void_pointer: When I first heard that, I found it quite surprising. I was under the impression that the gaps between 2nd and 3rd was much narrower, and 1st and 2nd a bit narrower 2018-04-02T21:40:06Z aeth: void_pointer: Things were probably narrower 10 years ago when CLISP was extremely popular. Years of no release has made it decline significantly afaik 2018-04-02T21:40:37Z _death: aeth: if you think about the primary feature of ECL, being embeddable, then the number of users (developers) is also more tricky to determine 2018-04-02T21:41:00Z aeth: _death: Same with ABCL and possibly LW 2018-04-02T21:41:01Z void_pointer: that would explain it. I had tried picking up common lisp a first time back in 2013 and then put it down until just late last year 2018-04-02T21:41:20Z aeth: I'm guessing 10 years ago CLISP was up there with SBCL and LW might have been up there as well 2018-04-02T21:41:34Z aeth: It's really hard to compete with SBCL, though. It's both the fastest *and* the most informative. 2018-04-02T21:41:48Z void_pointer: depends on the specific needs 2018-04-02T21:41:49Z jmercouris: why is CLISP even a thing? 2018-04-02T21:41:54Z aeth: (In general, of course. I still catch things that SBCL tolerates and CCL does not, for instance.) 2018-04-02T21:41:59Z jmercouris: why would anyone use it when objectively every other implementation is better? 2018-04-02T21:42:08Z _death: aeth: yes, CLISP was more popular 2018-04-02T21:42:24Z aeth: jmercouris: CLISP is a bytecode implementation, so it's probably the first to every new platform. (Not a big deal when everyone is on x86-64 or ARM, and maybe RISC V in the future.) 2018-04-02T21:42:27Z phoe: jmercouris: popularity, readline integration, it's fast and useful for scripting 2018-04-02T21:42:28Z jmercouris: aeth: I find it the other way around, SBCL is constantly complaining about things that CCL accepts unquestioningly, what platform are you running on? 2018-04-02T21:42:34Z aeth: jmercouris: And, yes, as phoe said, readline 2018-04-02T21:42:47Z aeth: CLISP is very approachable from the terminal. With SBCL, you have to rlwrap 2018-04-02T21:42:53Z jmercouris: why does readline matter? we are all using slime anyway 2018-04-02T21:42:59Z aeth: well, now we are 2018-04-02T21:43:01Z phoe: jmercouris: hah, you *wish* 2018-04-02T21:43:10Z aeth: Most of us started in the terminal, especially back in the day. 2018-04-02T21:43:11Z phoe: #lisp isn't all of lisp users. 2018-04-02T21:43:13Z jmercouris: I can't imagine developing in Lisp directly from the terminal 2018-04-02T21:43:21Z void_pointer: ECL has some major advantages when working with lots of C code back and forth. That is one area where SBCL has some disadvantages 2018-04-02T21:43:35Z phoe: void_pointer: you mean the FFI cost? 2018-04-02T21:43:36Z aeth: It also takes a *long* time for accurate and up to date information to spread. A lot of old material tells people to use CLISP or the free LW. 2018-04-02T21:44:04Z aeth: The common wisdom today is probably something along the lines of: "Try SBCL then CCL then ECL in that order." That wasn't the advice from 1998 to 2010. And those sites and books are still there. 2018-04-02T21:44:26Z jmercouris: I would say go CCL -> SBCL -> ECL 2018-04-02T21:44:32Z jmercouris: CCL is the most user friendly and easiest to install 2018-04-02T21:44:48Z aeth: macOS might reverse the SBCL and CCL, but only on macOS 2018-04-02T21:44:49Z phoe: >easiest to install 2018-04-02T21:44:49Z jmercouris: at least on a Mac, it is 2018-04-02T21:45:02Z jmercouris: I didn't type quick enough ;) 2018-04-02T21:45:18Z aeth: Fedora has SBCL and ECL, and maybe one or two more obscure ones. But does not have CCL. 2018-04-02T21:45:21Z void_pointer: phoe: yes, in its various facets. Different GC helps a lot, even though it hurts performance in many ways. 2018-04-02T21:45:34Z aeth: Pretty much every Linux (or other Unix) distro that has a packager who cares about CL is going to have SBCL 2018-04-02T21:45:35Z phoe: aeth: I do not think any Linux has CCL in its repos. not from the popular ones at least. 2018-04-02T21:46:13Z void_pointer: I have only SBCL and ECL on my computer. Have looked into getting CCL on here 2018-04-02T21:46:29Z void_pointer: if for no other reason than to make sure my code runs on multiple implementations OK 2018-04-02T21:46:33Z aeth: Oh, Fedora also has clisp 2018-04-02T21:46:34Z phoe: void_pointer: your OS? 2018-04-02T21:47:16Z void_pointer: GNU/Linux, but the project I am working on would target other OSes as well - specifically Windows, Max OS X, and possibly FreeBSD 2018-04-02T21:47:16Z aeth: I use roswell to get the latest SBCL and ECL and CLISP (hah, like they'll update it), and to get any access to CCL, ABCL, Clasp (roswell fails to compile it, which is annoying because the failure happens after at least 10 minutes; maybe it works now), etc. 2018-04-02T21:47:21Z aeth: I then use this for testing 2018-04-02T21:47:47Z aeth: I develop on Fedora's SBCL, though, because it's recent enough. Fedora seems to treat every SBCL release as potentially breaking, so it only updates when the distro updates, which is every 6 months. Current enough, though. 2018-04-02T21:48:14Z jmercouris: phoe: ubuntu has it 2018-04-02T21:48:27Z phoe: void_pointer: just grab a ccl package from the website and ln /opt/ccl/lx86cl64 /usr/bin/ccl 2018-04-02T21:48:38Z phoe: jmercouris: oh, really? that's news for me 2018-04-02T21:48:47Z jmercouris: yeah, it is in apt-get iirc 2018-04-02T21:49:01Z jmercouris: I don't have a linux machine to test it on at the moment, but I believe so 2018-04-02T21:49:02Z void_pointer: between that and having to worry about both amd64 and arm, I have to stay rather flexible with respect to implementation still 2018-04-02T21:49:08Z phoe: jmercouris: ...can't find it 2018-04-02T21:49:16Z jmercouris: strange 2018-04-02T21:49:22Z jmercouris: maybe I added some multiverse to my system 2018-04-02T21:49:35Z jmercouris: or whatever the term is, I always forget 2018-04-02T21:49:48Z jmercouris: I'm not a linux user 2018-04-02T21:49:54Z dTal: what do you use? 2018-04-02T21:50:01Z jmercouris: bsd 2018-04-02T21:50:01Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T21:50:08Z dTal: sweet which one 2018-04-02T21:50:17Z jmercouris: freebsd/macOS 2018-04-02T21:50:35Z didi keeps forgetting `:initial-value nil' and no :initial-value are different for reduce 2018-04-02T21:50:38Z dTal: I retract my "sweet" 2018-04-02T21:50:55Z jmercouris: lol, that's fine, perhaps I'm not cool enough to be using open or dragonfly 2018-04-02T21:51:33Z dTal: heh, FreeBSD is fine, MacOS doesn't get to be called a BSD 2018-04-02T21:51:38Z aeth: I've been waiting for a cheap (< $250), low power RISC V for years at this point (lowRISC used to say that it would release sometime in 2017). It's close enough to MIPS that I think CCL and SBCL will support it fairly quickly. 2018-04-02T21:51:53Z void_pointer: aeth: been waiting for one as well 2018-04-02T21:51:57Z jmercouris: aeth: complete system, or just the cpu? 2018-04-02T21:52:03Z dTal: I'd run OpenBSD on my laptop if it didn't suck for all practical purposes 2018-04-02T21:52:04Z aeth: jmercouris: I only need the CPU and ethernet 2018-04-02T21:52:07Z aeth: home server 2018-04-02T21:52:15Z aeth: I currently run my IRC on a raspberry pi 2018-04-02T21:52:18Z void_pointer: I would like something somewhat akin to a raspberry pi 2018-04-02T21:52:28Z void_pointer: but risc-v 2018-04-02T21:52:28Z aeth: I don't use the graphical part of the raspberry pi 2018-04-02T21:52:34Z didi left #lisp 2018-04-02T21:53:00Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T21:53:56Z pmc_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T21:53:59Z void_pointer: funny thing, just ordered one yesterday - pi 3 B+. Getting it for common lisp development actually. Want project to run on low end ARMs with decent enough performance. If it can work well enough on it, then it will work quite a bit better on higher end ones. Also, reduce ISA assumptions 2018-04-02T21:54:19Z aeth: Is it ARM 64 yet? 2018-04-02T21:54:30Z jmercouris: void_pointer: a good way to test how good your code is to run it in a VM with low resources 2018-04-02T21:54:56Z jmercouris: it is very easy to deploy, and you can use something like vagrant with some provisioning system behidn it 2018-04-02T21:54:59Z aeth: I make one architecture assumption: 64-bit, with a large enough implementation fixnum size (60ish is fine; this is something that both 64-bit CLISP (48ish bits) and ABCL (uses 32-bit int) fail afaik) 2018-04-02T21:55:10Z void_pointer: aeth: on risc-v, more likely to see a cheaper board from sifive soon than lowrisc, I think 2018-04-02T21:55:12Z jmercouris: you will have to use a masterless provision for a single vm of course... 2018-04-02T21:55:20Z void_pointer: aeth: as far as arm64, raspbian is still 32-bit 2018-04-02T21:55:37Z void_pointer: aeth: however, other distros do have arm64 ports for the pi 3 2018-04-02T21:55:51Z aeth: The problem with 32-bit is that the size of everything depends on fixnum, and 32-bit is a *much* lower fixnum size. Also, single-floats are boxed. There goes the performance of anything that uses single-floats. 2018-04-02T21:56:08Z void_pointer: aeth: I have used 64bit SUSE on a pi 3 already (port had a lot of work left to do, sadly) 2018-04-02T21:56:33Z aeth: I write double-floats with care, and at least SBCL knows that it doesn't have to box them if they're stored in arrays (or structs) of the right type and accessed the right way. I don't write single-floats with care, because that would be annoying. 2018-04-02T21:56:55Z aeth: So while stuff I write that use floats could run in 32-bit, it will absolutely destroy the GC if in a hot loop 2018-04-02T21:57:07Z void_pointer: jmercouris: a VM is useful for that, and I do plan on using some VMs for some more extensive tests across more processor families 2018-04-02T21:57:21Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-02T21:57:33Z jmercouris: what is the software you are writing that is CPU bound? 2018-04-02T21:57:53Z void_pointer: jmercouris: though, one thing a VM doesn't provide, is a physical GPU, though admitedly the pi's is quite pathetic (which in some ways is ideal for what I am working with) 2018-04-02T21:59:40Z aeth: jmercouris: The big CL program I'm writing is a game engine. It's not CPU bound, it only uses about 2% to 8% (mostly on the low range) of my i7-4790k (might already be too slow for a pi3) because it runs the logic at 100 FPS and the rendering vsynced. (I don't have networking yet, but if used on a headless game server, it'd probably use a lot less CPU because the rendering takes up a lot of the CPU) 2018-04-02T22:00:00Z aeth: But it's a game engine, or possibly a game framework. Depends on how I market it in the end. The CPU overhead has to be low because that means that the users can do more things with it. 2018-04-02T22:00:23Z aeth: 2% CPU means 98% CPU for the user. 2018-04-02T22:01:26Z aeth: I'm told that the CPU% thing might not be 100% accurate because the modern computer might go into a lower power mode. And my engine might be low enough in CPU usage that it might send the computer into low power mode. Idk. 2018-04-02T22:01:34Z void_pointer: on a pi 3, it might work ok if game logic and graphics run on separate threads 2018-04-02T22:01:38Z aeth: I'm not aware of a more accurate measurement, though. FPS can't really work. 2018-04-02T22:01:47Z void_pointer: not possible with every kind of game, though 2018-04-02T22:01:55Z void_pointer: or well, not necessarily easily 2018-04-02T22:02:03Z aeth: FPS is too influenced by the renderer, and FPS only really tells you when it's under the cap. 2018-04-02T22:02:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-02T22:02:38Z void_pointer: aeth: funny coincidence, but that is the sort of project I am working on as well 2018-04-02T22:02:52Z void_pointer: aeth: though I suspect it is of a very different nature 2018-04-02T22:03:34Z aeth: void_pointer: Common Lisp seems to be increasingly popular, at least on Freenode, for this sort of thing. I even see it show up from time to time in #reddit-gamedev, not just in the Lisp-specific #lispgames (although I haven't seen it in #gamedev yet) 2018-04-02T22:03:49Z aeth: I guess people want something Pythonish, but without absolutely terrible performance for this sort of thing. 2018-04-02T22:04:04Z aeth: (Or even Schemish) 2018-04-02T22:04:23Z aeth: (The fast Schemes are not the Scheme with all of the libraries, at least at the moment.) 2018-04-02T22:04:57Z void_pointer: had similar reasoning here - that and a better package situation than scheme (honestly, would have preferred scheme otherwise) 2018-04-02T22:05:30Z k-hos: is there someone other than me and you aeth that use lisp in reddit-gamedev? :p 2018-04-02T22:05:57Z aeth: k-hos: I think there are at least two other people who have mentioned it, actually. 2018-04-02T22:06:01Z jcowan: void_pointer: Cloud CPUs do provide GPUs, if you pay for them 2018-04-02T22:06:34Z jcowan: aeth: Chicken is plenty fast, though not as fast as Chez or Stalin, and is certainly not short of libraries 2018-04-02T22:07:12Z aeth: jcowan: Chicken is the only one where I'm not aware of a gamedev community. Racket obviously has games. And davexunit represents Guile in #lispgames and has actually made patches to Guile to improve its performance in gamedev 2018-04-02T22:07:23Z aeth: (The only one of the big three) 2018-04-02T22:07:35Z Sveaker joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:07:36Z somewun quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T22:09:21Z aeth: jcowan: I think that at least for the specific performance requirements of games, though, that source-to-source compiling r7rs Scheme to SBCL (with CCL as a backup implementation) will get the best performance. 2018-04-02T22:09:38Z void_pointer: jcowan: I did not think about that. That might be useful later on if I need access to various nvidia cards or older amds (got access to two intel integrateds, a newish high end amd, and well, what the pi 3 will have) 2018-04-02T22:09:49Z jcowan: I'd love to do that, although presumably one would need to take precautions around call/cc. 2018-04-02T22:10:06Z aeth: jcowan: My cl-scheme is essentially on hold until I can think of a fast, elegant call/cc 2018-04-02T22:10:17Z phoe: with unwind-protect you can't really have easy call/cc 2018-04-02T22:10:18Z aeth: It's about 50% of a Scheme atm 2018-04-02T22:10:47Z jcowan: I wrote a clean-room CL implementation of T years ago but had to punt on tail recursion (not commonly provided then) and call/cc. 2018-04-02T22:10:48Z void_pointer: also, might have to do chicken style MTA due to the recursion, which might not be pretty in common lisp (honestly have no idea, but wouldn't want to try it myself) 2018-04-02T22:11:10Z aeth: phoe: The way I do it in cl-scheme, it wouldn't matter. It's not like Pseudoscheme where it compiles to CL and drops the Scheme features that don't fit. It's more like... it adds a very small runtime so that it can handle all Scheme features. 2018-04-02T22:11:42Z phoe: aeth: I see. 2018-04-02T22:11:43Z aeth: At the moment, I use a trampoline to get tail recursion, although I guess I could make non-portable assumptions to bypass the trampoline. It's hard, though, because it's not a matter of implementations, it's a matter of implementations *and* optimization level 2018-04-02T22:11:45Z jcowan wonders if CLTAU is still in the comp.lang.misc archives 2018-04-02T22:12:44Z aeth: A trampoline to get tail recursion is actually very small in CL, maybe a dozen or two dozen lines, and it isn't noticably slower than actually doing tail recursion. (It probably is slower, it's just not slow enough to be detected when I benchmarked in SBCL) 2018-04-02T22:12:53Z jcowan: aeth: I think most non-CLISP implementations provide tail calling nowadays, though others here probably know better than I. 2018-04-02T22:13:13Z aeth: jcowan: The problem is that SBCL with (optimize (debug 3)) afaik turns that off, and a lot of people use debug 3. 2018-04-02T22:13:21Z jcowan: Umph. 2018-04-02T22:13:40Z aeth: And if the point of transpiling is maximum speed, the main focus will be getting it to work on SBCL 2018-04-02T22:13:54Z aeth: At least, as things stand in 2018 and probably at least for the next 5 years. 2018-04-02T22:14:53Z jcowan: "What would we think of a sailing enthusiast who wears his lifejacket when training on dry land, but takes it off as soon as he goes to sea?" --C. A. R. Hoare 2018-04-02T22:15:04Z aeth: I started out with an interpreter approach and quickly moved to source-to-source compilation, but if I return to the project I might add back the interpreter because apparently a lot of people (literally several!) were interested in the sandboxing aspects. 2018-04-02T22:15:26Z aeth: It might also be possible to (eventually) write a cl-cl with some common code with cl-scheme, to get a similar result but for CL 2018-04-02T22:15:33Z patrixl joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:15:49Z phoe: jcowan: that's why I never drop safety below 1 2018-04-02T22:16:30Z patrixl quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-02T22:16:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:17:25Z aeth: Iirc, the two things that stalled cl-scheme were (1) call/cc and (2) a mutable global lexical environment (which outside of the REPL is afaik optional, but probably nice to have). 2018-04-02T22:17:40Z jcowan: I'd like the reverse, the ability to compile CL to Scheme, but the main cost there is library cost. 2018-04-02T22:17:53Z jcowan: Leveraging SICL would be great, but apparently it's not finished enough. 2018-04-02T22:17:55Z aeth: By global I mean "global" because it would be contained to the cl-scheme runtime. I could just do something like wrap that in one big let, but then you can't add to it. 2018-04-02T22:17:57Z phoe: jcowan: you'd need to be able to provide a lot of non-standard features 2018-04-02T22:17:59Z Sveaker quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T22:18:12Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:18:36Z jcowan: aeth: I don't understand the issue with globals, can you explain? 2018-04-02T22:19:15Z aeth: jcowan: In CL, you can define new functions at runtime. 2018-04-02T22:19:20Z jcowan: True 2018-04-02T22:19:27Z void_pointer: jcowan: well, if you can compile common lisp to emacs lisp, then you get pretty close since Guile can compile that into one of its intermediate representations which is scheme like and could possibly be compiled to scheme without that much effort 2018-04-02T22:19:42Z aeth: void_pointer: That sounds like a lot of performance would be lost, though. At every step. 2018-04-02T22:19:46Z jcowan: *Can* you compile CL to elisp? 2018-04-02T22:19:56Z Bike: the compiler parts of sicl work 2018-04-02T22:20:06Z Bike: not the backend, but you don't need that for scheme 2018-04-02T22:20:14Z void_pointer: aeth: yes, but running at all is a first step 2018-04-02T22:20:15Z jcowan: What matters is the SICL library 2018-04-02T22:20:35Z void_pointer: jcowan: not that I know of. But emacs lisp is closer to common lisp than scheme is, so it should be easier 2018-04-02T22:20:41Z jcowan: CL itself (that is, the special forms) would be straightforward to compile to Scheme. 2018-04-02T22:20:44Z Bike: you want to compile sicl's implementation of common lisp into scheme? 2018-04-02T22:21:00Z random-nick: guile doesn't do a really good job of compiling emacs lisp, since it doesn't have many optimisations for dynamic scope 2018-04-02T22:21:40Z jcowan: Bike: Yes, but for the purpose of providing a CL library so that CL code compiled into Scheme will get the environment it expects 2018-04-02T22:22:14Z aeth: What I want in the long run, although it's kind of on hold until I make significant progress in my game engine (I chose to prioritize that project), is a lot of languages running in one CL runtime. Starting with Scheme because it's close to CL, although it has some significant differences (nil vs. #f and '() is actually one of the more annoying ones to work with) 2018-04-02T22:22:14Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:22:18Z Bike: right 2018-04-02T22:22:26Z jcowan: If SICL were fully working it would just be a matter of replacing the SICL back end with one that generates Scheme. 2018-04-02T22:22:30Z aeth: Ideally, I could spin off a bunch of libraries from cl-scheme and other people could port languages that they want, like JavaScript or Lua. 2018-04-02T22:22:41Z void_pointer: if performance didn't matter at all, would take clisp which can make gnu lightning bytecode and then compile the resulting bytecode to scheme 2018-04-02T22:22:45Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:22:48Z Bike: well, i mean, sicl also uses lisp, at compile time 2018-04-02T22:22:53Z Bike: the loop implementation uses clos and such 2018-04-02T22:23:22Z jcowan: aeth: You know about Guile's solution to the nil problem? 2018-04-02T22:24:34Z aeth: jcowan: My solution is to make #f :false (although I will have to change that if I add keyword support) so I can completely use the host CL's lists without issue. This requires every CL predicate to be wrapped when called from Scheme, though. 2018-04-02T22:24:45Z aeth: jcowan: It has been a long time since I read about Guile's solution but I think I was inspired by it 2018-04-02T22:25:20Z jcowan: #nil is false but answers true to null?, and is not eq? to either #t or #f. 2018-04-02T22:25:40Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering, this appears to be the page: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs#toc7 2018-04-02T22:25:57Z jcowan: that works as long as you don't rely on the precise behavior of eq?/eq. 2018-04-02T22:26:09Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:26:11Z jcowan: sorry, is not eq? to either () or #f 2018-04-02T22:26:23Z aeth: jcowan: I think it's actually easier to do such a thing from a Scheme host instead of from a CL host 2018-04-02T22:26:34Z jcowan thinks about the :false idea 2018-04-02T22:27:02Z ancient_dog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:27:03Z aeth: I want to use as many CL built-ins as possible, for performance. Anything that's built-in will probably be faster than anything I write myself. Or, at worst, equally as fast and much more concise to write. 2018-04-02T22:27:13Z jcowan: Certainly. 2018-04-02T22:27:29Z aeth: It will also leave a clear path for using Quicklisp libraries. Just wrap them the same way as CL built-in functions/macros. 2018-04-02T22:27:35Z ancient_dog joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:27:37Z aeth: Handling CLOS methods might be trickier. 2018-04-02T22:27:47Z jcowan: Bike: I don't understand your comment 2018-04-02T22:27:57Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:27:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:28:12Z jcowan: Not really, because all that stuff is just various flavors of records in Scheme 2018-04-02T22:28:44Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:29:03Z Bike: sicl is written in common lisp, so you need a common lisp implementation to build and to load it 2018-04-02T22:29:07Z aeth: As for the performance of :false, I think the disassembly is essentially identical in SBCL with comparisons to NIL. It just compares to a different magic number, representing :false, than the magic number representing NIL. 2018-04-02T22:29:17Z aeth: It has been a while since I checked, though. 2018-04-02T22:29:31Z aeth: Any performance penalty would be at the conversion barrier when interfacing the two languages. 2018-04-02T22:29:43Z jcowan: Bike: Right, but that's a bootstrap problem, which many Lisps have 2018-04-02T22:30:10Z jcowan: Chicken, e.g., is distributed with both source code and compiler-generated C for that reason 2018-04-02T22:30:16Z Bike: "just be a matter" sounded overly optimistic, is all 2018-04-02T22:30:23Z Bike: also, there's no backend 2018-04-02T22:30:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:30:38Z jcowan: yes, I was conflating SICL and Clasp there 2018-04-02T22:31:03Z Bike: and boy does clasp have bootstrap problems 2018-04-02T22:31:32Z jcowan: It could be delivered with bitcode 2018-04-02T22:32:20Z Tahlwyn left #lisp 2018-04-02T22:33:12Z Bike: loading is... ok, building is not. but that's not what you're talkin bout 2018-04-02T22:33:24Z jcowan: right 2018-04-02T22:34:05Z jcowan: aeth: You're saying that (if (eq? foo :false) this that) compiles to the same thing, modulo a constant, as (if foo this that) in SBCL? 2018-04-02T22:34:13Z aeth: I'll check again 2018-04-02T22:34:31Z void_pointer: Bike: how bad is its bootstrap problem? 2018-04-02T22:34:56Z Bike: with respect to what criteria 2018-04-02T22:34:58Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-02T22:35:21Z jcowan: Almost any Scheme would trivially provide all the SICL primops, from the list I saw, and it would already have a GC and so on. 2018-04-02T22:35:31Z phoe: jcowan: (if foo that this) 2018-04-02T22:35:38Z aeth: (defun foo (foo this that) (if (eql foo :false) this that)) (defun bar (foo this that) (if (null foo) this that)) ; the only difference in disassemble is one line: ; 302: 4981F86FA94F20 CMP R8, #x204FA96F ; :FALSE vs. ; 92: 4981F817001020 CMP R8, #x20100017 ; NIL 2018-04-02T22:35:51Z aeth: This makes sense, they're both symbols internally. 2018-04-02T22:35:57Z jcowan: Ah 2018-04-02T22:36:49Z void_pointer: Bike: I guess one criteria is whether it can, if you just download the source, whether it can be built without having to already have a built version or another common lisp implementation 2018-04-02T22:36:54Z rme: on some ccl ports, nil is just a really popular constant. on other ports, it has its own tag. 2018-04-02T22:37:13Z jcowan: the latter is the case I had in mind 2018-04-02T22:37:16Z void_pointer: Bike: GCC, for example, requires a working C or C++ compiler to already be there 2018-04-02T22:37:26Z Bike: that doesn't seem like a problem 2018-04-02T22:37:35Z jcowan: aeth: can you check a simple (if foo this that) without invoking any predicate? 2018-04-02T22:38:05Z phoe: jcowan: yes 2018-04-02T22:38:12Z phoe: you compare FOO with NIL 2018-04-02T22:38:21Z phoe: and branch to THAT if it is NIL, and to THIS otherwise 2018-04-02T22:38:34Z jcowan: I guess that makes sense if it's internally represented as a symbol 2018-04-02T22:38:45Z phoe: NIL is a symbol, yes 2018-04-02T22:39:01Z aeth: (defun foobar (foo this that) (if (not (eql foo :false)) this that)) (defun barfoo (foo this that) (if foo this that)) ; essentially the same, it's still testing against :FALSE or NIL 2018-04-02T22:39:09Z jcowan remembers when NIL was internally represented as all-bits-zero and there were zeros at locations 0 and 2 2018-04-02T22:39:31Z jcowan: of course symbol-string had to treat it specially then 2018-04-02T22:39:37Z jcowan: 2, heh, 16-bit thinking 2018-04-02T22:39:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T22:39:57Z void_pointer: Bike: depends on who one asks. There is this one project https://gitlab.com/janneke/mes whose part of a collection of tools whose goal is to bootstrap GCC from a small assembler (assembler to build minimal scheme implementation and C compiler (in scheme) to then build tcc and then try to build gcc) 2018-04-02T22:40:09Z Bike: what for 2018-04-02T22:40:39Z jcowan: I guess to port gcc to new OSes (new chips would need more than that) 2018-04-02T22:40:42Z Bike: "Maxwell Equations of Software" okay, so just because 2018-04-02T22:41:12Z jcowan: tcc is something that all HLLs should come with 2018-04-02T22:41:13Z aeth: There is an idiom where :false as #f is going to cause problems, though. You can type something in CL as (or foo null) and it'll behave exactly as you would expect it to behave. Either it's false or it's a foo. 2018-04-02T22:41:28Z Bike: gcc can cross compile, so you don't need to pull yourself out of the muck 2018-04-02T22:41:57Z jcowan: Bike: True, but it's not easy to add a new cross-compiler FWIU 2018-04-02T22:42:15Z Bike: not easy to write the entire sequence from assembly either, you know? 2018-04-02T22:42:20Z jcowan: you would need a new bfd library 2018-04-02T22:42:36Z jcowan: Well, that's why staging it makes sense 2018-04-02T22:43:02Z jcowan: if you all you need for your new chip is an assembler sufficient to assemble a (macro-assembler version of) Scheme, you are in business 2018-04-02T22:43:03Z void_pointer: I'm waiting till someone writes a C compiler in brainfuck 2018-04-02T22:43:14Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T22:43:14Z aeth: no need to wait 2018-04-02T22:43:16Z Bike: i'm pretty sure that's been done 2018-04-02T22:43:18Z void_pointer: then bootstrapping is easy 2018-04-02T22:43:26Z phoe: void_pointer: d'oh 2018-04-02T22:43:29Z void_pointer: if one has years of CPU time to throw at the problem 2018-04-02T22:43:34Z phoe: you can transpile C into BF 2018-04-02T22:43:40Z jcowan: Better than writing a C compiler in Malebolge 2018-04-02T22:43:43Z aeth: https://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF 2018-04-02T22:43:54Z phoe: so you can transpile a thing like tcc to BF 2018-04-02T22:44:00Z Bike: aeth: you misread 2018-04-02T22:44:02Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-02T22:44:05Z jcowan: aeth: Why is "or" a problem? 2018-04-02T22:44:14Z void_pointer: not compiling to BF, but writing it straight up in BF 2018-04-02T22:44:23Z jcowan: eurgh 2018-04-02T22:44:23Z phoe: welllll 2018-04-02T22:44:30Z Bike: ok so anyway, clasp's problem is that it mostly builds from C++ without lisp, and along with a few other things this makes the build a stupid process 2018-04-02T22:44:31Z aeth: jcowan: I think "esolang" is a bit... lacking of a term. There are two kinds of esolang. "artistic/simplistic" ones and "malicious" ones. Brainfuck is a simplistic one, not an actively malicious one (although the way it jumps makes it hard to do anything useful) 2018-04-02T22:44:33Z Bike: now you know 2018-04-02T22:44:42Z Bike: esolang has classified brainfuck as not an esolang for a while 2018-04-02T22:44:46Z Bike: i mean, it's mathematically useful 2018-04-02T22:45:06Z Bike: i'm speaking informally from when i used to hang out in their irc 2018-04-02T22:45:09Z jcowan: In that case Malebolge is an eso^2lang 2018-04-02T22:45:36Z aeth: Bike: The problem is that everything eventually becomes mathematically useful. Ask pure mathematicians. 2018-04-02T22:46:05Z aeth: (Well, that's a similar case... where pure math gets applications in comp sci or physics) 2018-04-02T22:46:26Z Bike: pure mathematicians, when was the last time you used the lennard jones potential 2018-04-02T22:47:01Z Bike: run c2bf on itself, now the circle of stupidity is complete 2018-04-02T22:47:40Z Bike: brainfuck didn't "become" useful anyway, it's essentially identical to P'', invented in 1964 2018-04-02T22:48:07Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:48:22Z aeth: I tried writing a CL in Brainfuck, but then I realized that it's at least 10x harder than writing one in asm, and asm would at least be useful to someone. 2018-04-02T22:48:57Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-02T22:49:18Z void_pointer: Bike: sounds like clasp's bootstrapping situation isn't that bad, unless it takes forever as C++ often does (now reminded of how bootstrapping Guile can take well over an hour) 2018-04-02T22:49:24Z aeth: Writing directly to some VM's register machine or stack machine is probably considerably easier than BF. 2018-04-02T22:49:29Z Bike: it takes forever 2018-04-02T22:49:44Z Bike: it would be far more sensible to build from something else, and i've done some work in that direction, but that's still hard 2018-04-02T22:50:48Z aeth: I think the only way to have useful BF as a compilation target is to move the world around some central area (so it's always close by) as you walk through the BF tape. Or perhaps have two BFs talk to each other. 2018-04-02T22:51:19Z aeth: Definitely not a worthwhile use of time to build Lisp on that. 2018-04-02T22:51:45Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-02T22:51:53Z rme: ccl rebuilds itself in 30 seconds on my iMac. 2018-04-02T22:52:03Z aeth: does CCL have any C++? 2018-04-02T22:52:16Z rme: nope 2018-04-02T22:52:17Z aeth: Afaik, C usually compiles quickly, C++ usually does not. 2018-04-02T22:52:39Z k-hos: it's all that manglin' 2018-04-02T22:52:40Z aeth: C++'s focus is on adding very many "zero cost" (at runtime! not at compile time!) abstractions. 2018-04-02T22:53:21Z Bike: that's not why clasp's build is slow 2018-04-02T22:53:36Z aeth: An extended macro system could probably do something very similar to what C++ does in a Lisp without the massive time penalties of C++ compilation. 2018-04-02T22:55:29Z Bike: how does ccl build, anyway? i've never been quite clear 2018-04-02T22:56:30Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T23:01:14Z rme: It bootstraps by writing a minimal image file (which it constructs in memory), and alsocompiling (or cross-compiling) additional source files that comprise the rest of the lisp. You can then start the bootstrap image, which will then load those fasl files. Then you save an image of the lisp you just made. 2018-04-02T23:01:49Z Bike: how does it write the minimal image? 2018-04-02T23:02:17Z rme: From an existing CCL. 2018-04-02T23:02:32Z Bike: right, i see. 2018-04-02T23:03:10Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:09:38Z Xach: learn these secrets and more at ELS! 2018-04-02T23:10:22Z phoe: so basically, as soon as someone can create a minimal image file outside CCL, then CCL becomes sanely bootstrappable? 2018-04-02T23:11:50Z Bike: you say that like it's simple 2018-04-02T23:11:59Z phoe: of course it's not 2018-04-02T23:12:06Z phoe: if it was simple we'd already have it 2018-04-02T23:15:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:17:35Z rme: I don't think the existing bootstrapping process is totally insane. 2018-04-02T23:20:59Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-02T23:21:03Z phoe: rme: I mean "sane" as "not needing a CCL before it". 2018-04-02T23:21:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:21:30Z phoe: I looked at CCL's bootstrapping process some time ago and I wouldn't call it mad, if that's what I accidentally implied. 2018-04-02T23:21:47Z phoe: But yes, it's time for me to go to sleep. 2018-04-02T23:21:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:22:09Z Xach: xof just called it sanely bootstrappable for a cute pun 2018-04-02T23:22:30Z void_pointer quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2018-04-02T23:22:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:24:16Z aeth: Ahah! At least in SBCL, I can do this: (deftype false () `(member :false)) and then these are essentially identical: (defun foo (x) (typep foo 'nil)) (defun foobar (x) (typep x 'false)) 2018-04-02T23:24:37Z phoe: aeth: 'null 2018-04-02T23:24:38Z phoe: not 'nil 2018-04-02T23:24:38Z aeth: At least one more point in favor of using a keyword or symbol when embedding a language that requires separating false and '() 2018-04-02T23:24:51Z aeth: phoe: you are absolutely correct, I typoed that 2018-04-02T23:24:54Z Bike: typep nil is going to be very fast indeed 2018-04-02T23:25:05Z aeth: phoe: 'nil is an error 'null gets the disassembly I am looking for 2018-04-02T23:25:12Z phoe: aeth: not really an error 2018-04-02T23:25:22Z aeth: again, one line of difference in SBCL's disassembly 2018-04-02T23:25:22Z phoe: just, well, will get very optimized 2018-04-02T23:25:35Z phoe: since (typep foo 'nil) ;=> nil 2018-04-02T23:26:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:26:25Z aeth: Ahah! At least in SBCL, I can do this: (deftype false () `(member :false)) and then these are essentially identical: (defun foo (x) (typep foo 'null)) (defun foobar (x) (typep x 'false)) 2018-04-02T23:31:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:32:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:33:15Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:34:07Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:36:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:36:39Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:37:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T23:37:56Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:39:15Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-02T23:41:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:41:47Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:43:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-02T23:44:04Z pmc_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-02T23:45:35Z siraben` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:46:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:48:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:49:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-02T23:51:31Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2018-04-03T03:21:35Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T03:23:34Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-03T03:30:22Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T03:31:52Z safe joined #lisp 2018-04-03T03:32:55Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T03:42:03Z k-hos: pretty sure it stands for salty bacon common lisp 2018-04-03T03:42:20Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T03:44:56Z onion: tasty treats for ABCL 2018-04-03T03:47:22Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-03T03:53:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T03:55:09Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-03T04:02:05Z aeth: I thought it was Ship Boxes Common Lisp. 2018-04-03T04:08:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:09:17Z k-hos: word on the street is it was mislocalized in japan as sticky beans common lisp 2018-04-03T04:13:23Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:13:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T04:14:56Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-03T04:15:19Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:23:06Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T04:26:21Z wheelsucker: Scotch and Bourbon Common Lisp 2018-04-03T04:27:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-03T04:28:35Z jcowan: Should be Common Lisp 2018-04-03T04:28:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:30:44Z jcowan: SpongeBob Common Lisp, Slow Burn Common Lisp, Strictly-business CL, Sexy Beast CL 2018-04-03T04:31:35Z figurehe4d joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:33:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T04:36:32Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-03T04:37:44Z onion: all of those are gold; now to me, they are all correct expansions of the acronym 2018-04-03T04:49:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:51:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-03T04:53:04Z beach: jcowan: SICL and Clasp are very very different implementations. 2018-04-03T04:53:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T04:58:56Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-03T04:59:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T05:00:00Z equwalLogsServer left #lisp 2018-04-03T05:04:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T05:08:39Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T05:09:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T05:09:45Z beach: minion: What does SBCL stand for? 2018-04-03T05:09:45Z minion: Sulforicinate Bedirter Common Lisp 2018-04-03T05:10:00Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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:) 2018-04-03T07:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T07:04:26Z antoszka: Or maybe Omaha Beach Common Lisp. 2018-04-03T07:05:29Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T07:10:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:11:52Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:12:18Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:16:33Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T07:23:19Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:24:10Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-03T07:28:24Z flip214: antoszka: beach's last name already starts with an S, remember? 2018-04-03T07:28:37Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:29:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:33:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T07:34:55Z panji joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:37:19Z Th30n joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:39:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-03T07:46:01Z antoszka: flip214: Yes. 2018-04-03T07:46:25Z flip214: so you can easily build S-B-CL already... 2018-04-03T07:46:54Z antoszka: Sure :) Though that would be a tautology ;) 2018-04-03T07:47:21Z antoszka: (apparently) 2018-04-03T07:51:53Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-03T07:53:11Z bjorkintosh: s bob's cl! 2018-04-03T07:53:27Z bjorkintosh: do people get called 'rob' or 'bob' or 'bobby' in europe? 2018-04-03T07:53:47Z bjorkintosh: *named. not called. feels wrong somehow. 2018-04-03T07:55:48Z antoszka: Not that I know of. 2018-04-03T07:56:00Z antoszka: Also, Microsoft Bob *was* written in CL. 2018-04-03T07:56:08Z antoszka: FWIR 2018-04-03T07:56:12Z bjorkintosh: No!! 2018-04-03T07:59:29Z bjorkintosh: there's very little information about who wrote it though. 2018-04-03T07:59:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T08:01:33Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-03T08:01:45Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T08:03:43Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:05:51Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:05:55Z sauvin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-03T08:09:11Z epony: Britain is not Europe :-P 2018-04-03T08:10:03Z surrounder: bjorkintosh: yes, in .nl at least 2018-04-03T08:10:15Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T08:10:30Z kushal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-03T08:11:28Z epony: SBCL means "Still Being Considered Lisp". 2018-04-03T08:11:33Z antoszka: lol 2018-04-03T08:11:52Z bjorkintosh: epony, yes, by a vote it is not europe. 2018-04-03T08:11:59Z bjorkintosh: don't tell the romans next time they invade. 2018-04-03T08:12:02Z epony: It never was :-) 2018-04-03T08:12:08Z bjorkintosh: I know, I know. it's been a while. 2018-04-03T08:15:44Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Sym Bolix CL 2018-04-03T08:33:31Z shrdlu68: Charles Babbage Common Lisp. 2018-04-03T08:34:22Z bjorkintosh: there's no "S" at the beginning. 2018-04-03T08:34:22Z shrdlu68: Compile to BASIC cl. 2018-04-03T08:35:01Z shrdlu68: For some reason my mind is s/s/c/ 2018-04-03T08:36:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:36:25Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:37:52Z flip214: "Let's Create Ballistic Scheme" 2018-04-03T08:39:07Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:39:58Z shrdlu68: flip214: How did you solve the multithreading thing where different threads were writing to a stream? 2018-04-03T08:40:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T08:40:59Z flip214: shrdlu68: using the lock did work fine already. 2018-04-03T08:41:19Z flip214: I was stumbling about having :if-already-exists :append and did look at old data in that file. 2018-04-03T08:43:06Z shrdlu68: Cool, a certain part of my brain still had it in mind. 2018-04-03T08:43:07Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:43:34Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:46:13Z kdas__ is now known as kushal 2018-04-03T08:46:24Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2018-04-03T08:46:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:46:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:51:11Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-03T08:51:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T08:54:53Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T08:57:53Z jeosol: flip214: had similar problems with my parallel code, and used with (bt:with-lock-held ...) 2018-04-03T08:57:59Z jeosol: morning guys 2018-04-03T09:03:45Z fzappa joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:06:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:09:55Z flip214: jeosol: that's what I already used, yeah. 2018-04-03T09:13:44Z dim joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:14:07Z MrMc joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:15:43Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:17:54Z MrMc: I am trying to use parenscript with the Chartist javascript library how do I get parenscript to emmit new Chartist.Line('.ct-chart', data); 2018-04-03T09:20:17Z MrMc: The challenge is that this is wrapped as a function returning new Chartist.Line('.ct-chart', data) 2018-04-03T09:25:04Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T09:25:29Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-03T09:26:52Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T09:27:25Z malcom2073_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Even if I use multiple threads in my code, they may block on a single connection for example. 2018-04-03T11:01:25Z phoe: Hence my question. 2018-04-03T11:02:10Z antoszka: Well I'm sure you could easily find that out if you try (by even watching connections). 2018-04-03T11:02:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:02:22Z antoszka: I don't know whether the library is blocking or not. 2018-04-03T11:02:31Z antoszka: But I'd just experiment ;) 2018-04-03T11:02:34Z phoe: Okay, that's what I'll do (eventually). 2018-04-03T11:02:58Z antoszka: Just try 10 `sleeps` in parallel. 2018-04-03T11:03:17Z antoszka: And see if they complete within ~n seconds, or ~n*10 seconds. 2018-04-03T11:03:56Z antoszka: phoe: SELECT pg_sleep(10); 2018-04-03T11:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:04:58Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:09:45Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:11:00Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:11:18Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:17:24Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-03T11:18:47Z flip214: phoe: antoszka: the CONNECT function has a POOLED-P keyword argument... 2018-04-03T11:19:23Z antoszka: I'd have to try myself :) 2018-04-03T11:19:23Z flip214: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs/postmodern/doc/postmodern.html 2018-04-03T11:19:35Z flip214: I knew because I recently used it 2018-04-03T11:20:28Z flip214: also, see https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs/postmodern/doc/postmodern.html#*max-pool-size* 2018-04-03T11:20:58Z phoe: flip214: thanks! 2018-04-03T11:21:00Z phoe: normally, Database error: This connection is still processing another query. 2018-04-03T11:21:01Z phoe: [Condition of type CL-POSTGRES:DATABASE-ERROR] 2018-04-03T11:21:05Z phoe: that is what I get. 2018-04-03T11:21:17Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:21:35Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T11:23:10Z phoe: In other words, I should create N connections manually with :POOLED-P T, correct? 2018-04-03T11:24:02Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:24:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:25:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:28:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:28:37Z Younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T11:40:22Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:40:49Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T11:41:00Z flip214: phoe: do you set *database*? 2018-04-03T11:41:52Z flip214: I guess you should be using (with-connection (... :pooled-p T) body) and not ever set *DATABASE* at all. 2018-04-03T11:42:23Z flip214: also note that (connect-toplevel) *does* set *database* 2018-04-03T11:43:35Z flip214: phoe: and also be aware of potential problems if you (need to) give the database connection up, eg. because of multiple independent requests via hunchentoot 2018-04-03T11:44:16Z flip214: a SELECT FOR UPDATE will not work, because a) the old transaction might/will be aborted, and b) you might get assigned some other connection 2018-04-03T11:47:12Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:48:12Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:49:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T11:50:12Z phoe: flip214: thanks. I will use that one. 2018-04-03T11:50:25Z phoe: Also, only my worker threads will be using the connections. 2018-04-03T11:50:35Z phoe: And I know the amount of worker threads. 2018-04-03T11:51:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:52:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T11:56:20Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T11:58:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T12:00:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-03T12:08:36Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-04-03T12:10:20Z sindan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T12:12:03Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2018-04-03T12:23:06Z sindan joined #lisp 2018-04-03T12:25:16Z bjhx joined #lisp 2018-04-03T12:25:56Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T12:26:57Z shka: hello! 2018-04-03T12:30:28Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T12:33:28Z ghard joined #lisp 2018-04-03T12:35:08Z shrdlu68: shka: Hi 2018-04-03T12:36:00Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don’t have it on my machine. 2018-04-03T13:44:42Z schweers: As I’m running debian (read: ancient software) I suspect that I might need a newer version 2018-04-03T13:44:50Z phoe: schweers: yes. 2018-04-03T13:44:58Z phoe: ASDF 3.2, iirc 2018-04-03T13:45:18Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T13:45:38Z schweers sighs 2018-04-03T13:46:04Z phoe: fairly recent counting in lisp time, that is 2018-04-03T13:46:10Z schweers: Is anyone aware of other semi-portable ways to start asynchronous processes? 2018-04-03T13:46:25Z schweers: and recent in debian time too 2018-04-03T13:46:45Z dcluna joined #lisp 2018-04-03T13:46:53Z phoe: schweers: only your implementation's support. 2018-04-03T13:47:00Z schweers: k 2018-04-03T13:47:04Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T13:47:18Z schweers: upgrading asdf is supposed to be pretty painless, right? 2018-04-03T13:47:52Z schweers: so I don’t necessarily have to install a new version for the whole system, but can drop it somewhere where the installed asdf can find it? 2018-04-03T13:48:27Z svillemot: schweers: /usr/local/share/common-lisp/source should be the right system-wide path 2018-04-03T13:48:52Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T13:49:53Z shrdlu68: schweers: This may help: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Replacing-your-implementation_0027s-ASDF.html#Replacing-your-implementation_0027s-ASDF 2018-04-03T13:51:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T13:52:15Z svillemot: my understanding is that schweers uses the ASDF from the Debian package, not from its implem, which is 3.1.7 in Debian "Stretch" 9 2018-04-03T13:52:56Z schweers: I’m not entirely sure whether asdf comes from the implementation (sbcl) or from debian. Is there a way to check which version is currently loaded? 2018-04-03T13:53:22Z schweers: It seems that the cl-asdf package from debian testing is new enough, maybe I’ll use that or build a newer sbcl from source 2018-04-03T13:53:57Z svillemot: schweers: indeed you can install the one from testing, it will probably work 2018-04-03T13:54:32Z svillemot: schweers: (asdf:asdf-version) 2018-04-03T13:54:57Z schweers: thanks. it matches the version number aptitude gives me 2018-04-03T13:55:08Z schweers: right, cl-asdf/buster it is :D 2018-04-03T13:55:39Z svillemot: that one is 3.3.1 2018-04-03T13:56:22Z schweers: huh. I’ve installed the new version and I still get the old one in a new lisp image 2018-04-03T13:56:23Z schweers: weird 2018-04-03T13:57:10Z svillemot: maybe a cache issue? 2018-04-03T13:57:31Z svillemot: try moving away ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.14/ 2018-04-03T13:58:11Z schweers: thanks 2018-04-03T13:58:14Z schweers: that did it 2018-04-03T13:58:55Z schweers: there, now I have LAUNCH-PROGRAM. Thanks a lot for the help! 2018-04-03T13:59:19Z svillemot: np :) 2018-04-03T13:59:22Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T14:03:37Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:04:34Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:06:22Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:06:59Z p9tet2 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:07:18Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:09:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:11:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:16:12Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:21:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:23:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:26:35Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:33:00Z phoe: schweers: yay! 2018-04-03T14:33:51Z schweers: do I have to hold on to the return value of LAUNCH-PROGRAM? 2018-04-03T14:34:24Z schweers: It seems to me that the process dies in my program (where I do not care about the return value, other than the stream it contains) 2018-04-03T14:37:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:37:44Z phoe: schweers: I don't think so, if you want it to be fire-and-forget 2018-04-03T14:37:57Z phoe: on my machine it gives me a process-info structure of some sort 2018-04-03T14:38:56Z flip214: schweers: you'll need to PROCESS-CLOSE or similar when it's done. 2018-04-03T14:39:02Z schweers: I want to compress my output with bzip2. So instead of just opening the file (as I did until now), I create a bzip2 process. I give it as output the filename I previously opened directly and return the input stream, promptly forgetting the process-info value itself 2018-04-03T14:39:23Z flip214: schweers: that won't work in practice. 2018-04-03T14:39:27Z phoe: schweers: why is that asynchronous? 2018-04-03T14:39:32Z flip214: what if it runs out of space when writing? 2018-04-03T14:39:37Z schweers: flip214: my experiments on the REPL showed me that CLOSE on the input stream is sufficient, how is that wrong? 2018-04-03T14:39:52Z flip214: how do you get a success/error value from bzip2? 2018-04-03T14:39:59Z schweers: I would assume that writing to the input stream then signals a condition 2018-04-03T14:40:10Z phoe: oh wait, you just launch a bzip2 program, write to its input, and read its output? 2018-04-03T14:40:12Z flip214: doesn't have to. 2018-04-03T14:40:24Z schweers: I let bzip2 write its output do the filesystem 2018-04-03T14:40:24Z flip214: imagine that it reads the last input block, but then writes and fails. 2018-04-03T14:40:34Z schweers: hmm 2018-04-03T14:40:41Z flip214: on the input side this is indistinguishable from "okay" 2018-04-03T14:40:55Z flip214: you HAVE to check the return code. 2018-04-03T14:41:01Z schweers: I get your point, but still: why do the processes seem to simply die? is it because the return value of launch-program is garbage collected? 2018-04-03T14:41:01Z flip214: or even HAVE TO 2018-04-03T14:41:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:41:20Z phoe: schweers: no 2018-04-03T14:41:22Z flip214: schweers: do you get zombies, or is the destination file not written correctly? 2018-04-03T14:41:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:41:28Z phoe: if the return value is GCed the process lives on 2018-04-03T14:41:38Z flip214: what's "simply die" to you, exactly? 2018-04-03T14:41:44Z schweers: I’m still not entirely sure, but the files don’t manifest themselves. 2018-04-03T14:41:50Z flip214: phoe: there's no return value until the process is dead ;) 2018-04-03T14:42:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:42:26Z flip214: schweers: do you call a shell with redirection, or pass the output filename to bzip2 as :output? 2018-04-03T14:42:39Z phoe: schweers: check all the output streams of bzip2, including stderr, for any data that might appear there. 2018-04-03T14:42:40Z flip214: if the latter, do you also have :if-output-exists etc. options? 2018-04-03T14:42:42Z schweers: the latter 2018-04-03T14:43:11Z flip214: also, use strace to check for the exact behaviour. 2018-04-03T14:43:13Z schweers: I pass :rename-and-delete, but they should never exist 2018-04-03T14:43:27Z schweers: strace, good point 2018-04-03T14:43:43Z flip214: perhaps you'd want RUN-PROGRAM? 2018-04-03T14:44:48Z schweers: no, I want it to be asynchronous 2018-04-03T14:45:06Z flip214: schweers: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-bzip2/ ? 2018-04-03T14:45:06Z schweers: I want to spawn the programm and pass the stream around 2018-04-03T14:45:08Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:45:28Z bjxbmc joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:45:33Z schweers: seemed very dead to me. and simply using the bzip2 binary seemed to be the easier way 2018-04-03T14:45:41Z flip214: please paste the code, I'll bbl and look at it. 2018-04-03T14:45:49Z phoe: flip214: 2018-04-03T14:45:50Z phoe: >Coming soon! 2018-04-03T14:45:51Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:46:07Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:46:49Z schweers: the thing is that I’m just working this into a somewhat complex program. so pasting the relevant bits isn’t really a straightforward process :/ 2018-04-03T14:47:02Z beach` joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:47:16Z galdor1 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:47:38Z dmh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T14:48:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:48:06Z galdor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T14:48:18Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:56Z bjhx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:56Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:57Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:57Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:48:57Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:49:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:49:13Z beach` is now known as beach 2018-04-03T14:49:35Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:49:49Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:49:59Z jasom joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:50:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:50:16Z rann joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:50:23Z dmh joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:50:30Z gz joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:50:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T14:52:04Z schweers: oh 2018-04-03T14:52:27Z schweers: is it possible that I’m not allowed to call LAUNCH-PROGRAM from a thread other than the main thread? 2018-04-03T14:52:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T14:52:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:53:29Z phoe: weird 2018-04-03T14:53:40Z phoe: I can do that normally 2018-04-03T14:54:12Z schweers: its not that, I just tried, works fine 2018-04-03T14:54:40Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T14:54:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:55:09Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:55:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:55:53Z schweers: ugh. seems that I got tripped up again with sbcl and pathnames 2018-04-03T14:56:00Z schweers: I have a pathname which has no namestring 2018-04-03T14:56:03Z schweers: so that can’t work 2018-04-03T14:56:05Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T14:56:12Z schweers: right, sorry guys, false alarm 2018-04-03T14:56:55Z fluxit quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-03T14:57:06Z fluxit joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:58:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T14:58:34Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:00:21Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:00:33Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T15:01:33Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:01:51Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:04:05Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:06:57Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T15:07:05Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:11:38Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:16:05Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:16:24Z flip214: schweers: no problem, the important thing is that you got it working! 2018-04-03T15:16:55Z flip214: anyway, we're all just somebody's rubber duck 2018-04-03T15:17:13Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-03T15:17:29Z schweers: turns out that I am giving some wrong parameters in. I gave a broken pathname, gave :rename-and-delete (which is illegal), and :error-output t is also apparently illegal 2018-04-03T15:17:42Z schweers: yeah, thanks for that! 2018-04-03T15:19:01Z phoe: <3 2018-04-03T15:19:50Z flip214 waits for phoe to give a downward arrow, so that I can write something useful there 2018-04-03T15:19:54Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:20:06Z phoe: v 2018-04-03T15:20:53Z flip214: HOORAY 2018-04-03T15:21:07Z flip214: thanks 2018-04-03T15:21:15Z flip214: the suspension was nearly killing me 2018-04-03T15:21:25Z phoe: there, I'll be fancy 2018-04-03T15:21:26Z phoe: ↓ 2018-04-03T15:22:24Z Shinmera: #lispcafe 2018-04-03T15:23:28Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:23:42Z flip214: ✓✔↵ 2018-04-03T15:23:59Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:25:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:25:05Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:25:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:27:58Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:28:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:29:11Z schweers: is there actually a good reason why sbcl does not properly work with pathname types like "tar.bz2"? 2018-04-03T15:29:58Z phoe: schweers: yes, there was one - when you have "foo.bar.baz" it has no idea whether the file "extension" is "bar.baz" or "baz" 2018-04-03T15:30:11Z schweers: thats not what I mean 2018-04-03T15:30:29Z phoe: schweers: what exactly fails for you? 2018-04-03T15:30:33Z schweers: I construct a pathname like this: (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "tar.bz2") 2018-04-03T15:30:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:30:42Z schweers: it fails to give me a namestring 2018-04-03T15:31:32Z rpg: schweers: this isn't really SBCL's fault -- the ANSI spec really isn't clear about how file types should be parsed, because it was written in a time of greater filesystem diversity than today. 2018-04-03T15:31:43Z phoe: (uiop:native-namestring (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "bar.baz")) ;=> "foo.bar.baz" 2018-04-03T15:31:50Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:31:51Z schweers: I know, but why did the sbcl devs decide to do it this way? 2018-04-03T15:32:05Z rpg: I am honestly a little surprised, though, that when you push a type in with MAKE-PATHNAME it doesn't do the right thing. 2018-04-03T15:32:11Z Xach: schweers: I suspect it is inherited from CMUCL, and the answer may be lost in the mists of time. or not! 2018-04-03T15:32:12Z schweers: oh, I didn’t know about that function 2018-04-03T15:32:23Z rpg: What do you get back from (describe (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "tar.bz2")) 2018-04-03T15:32:30Z phoe: schweers: just like the spec, uiop has many mysteries 2018-04-03T15:33:00Z phoe: rpg: the type is correctly set to be "tar.bz2" but NAMESTRING refuses to work with it. 2018-04-03T15:33:09Z phoe: I mean #'NAMESTRING 2018-04-03T15:33:17Z rpg: wow. That's weird 2018-04-03T15:34:12Z flip214: The pathname # does not have a namestring because the :TYPE component contains a #\. 2018-04-03T15:34:20Z flip214: is what current SBCL says. 2018-04-03T15:34:22Z schweers: rpg: regarding your point that the standard doesn’t specify how to do this: I know that, but it seems like a language lawer move. It seems to me to be an insane way of handling this, but I might be wrong. Hence my question about the rationale for this way of doing things. 2018-04-03T15:34:31Z schweers: so? 2018-04-03T15:34:58Z Xach: schweers: I think it is reasonable to say that the type is everything after the final "." and the name is everything before. 2018-04-03T15:35:13Z Xach: It is arbitrary, but reasonable. 2018-04-03T15:35:29Z Xach: I don't know why sbcl works that way. 2018-04-03T15:35:34Z rpg: Xach: but surely if you actually push a value into type as in this case, NAMESTRING ought to report it back. 2018-04-03T15:35:39Z phoe: yep, (namestring (make-pathname :name "foo.bar" :type "baz")) works 2018-04-03T15:35:40Z dlowe: can't have complex file types 2018-04-03T15:35:40Z schweers: Does the standard require namestring parsing and printing to be a bijective relation? 2018-04-03T15:35:56Z rpg: To refuse to parse this makes sense to me, but to refuse to emit it just seems weird. 2018-04-03T15:35:58Z Xach: rpg: I don't think so, because it can't round-trip. 2018-04-03T15:36:01Z dlowe: type sounds like a terrible thing to have as a pathname field anyway 2018-04-03T15:36:20Z Xach: rpg: if you parse-namestring you get a different object, and that's not what namestrings are for. 2018-04-03T15:36:21Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:36:22Z rpg: Xach: In that case, I think SBCL should raise an error in response to setting type in that way. 2018-04-03T15:36:42Z rpg: I.e., if it's not legal to work with namestring, it should not be legal period. 2018-04-03T15:36:53Z Xach: Maybe! 2018-04-03T15:37:09Z rpg: "legal period" was not *intended* to be a pun! 2018-04-03T15:37:47Z TMA: it lacks a period then 2018-04-03T15:39:07Z flip214: this behaviour might have originated from a pre-unix period 2018-04-03T15:39:45Z flip214: schweers: just take a unicode point. here's one for you: · 2018-04-03T15:40:14Z flip214: so foo·tar.gz 2018-04-03T15:40:42Z schweers: I have to follow this convention for other tools 2018-04-03T15:40:52Z schweers: and no, I will not confuse anyone with such a character 2018-04-03T15:41:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:42:51Z flip214: schweers: ".tgz" is also popular 2018-04-03T15:43:08Z rpg: flip214: But that's for gzip and this is bzip 2018-04-03T15:43:15Z schweers: I only used "tar" and "bz2" because those are well known examples 2018-04-03T15:43:29Z flip214: tbz or tbz2, then 2018-04-03T15:43:30Z schweers: its actually about .osm.pbf and .osm.bz2 2018-04-03T15:43:39Z rpg: Double extensions aren't uncommon for compressed files these days. 2018-04-03T15:43:51Z flip214: well, in the end the tools don't care. name them ".schweers" and be done ;) 2018-04-03T15:44:05Z schweers: I’m afraid they do care 2018-04-03T15:44:28Z schweers: I think I can force the format, but then I’d rather stick to the convention 2018-04-03T15:44:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:45:50Z flip214: how about (CONCATENATE 'string filename ".tar.bz2") and avoid pathnames altogether? 2018-04-03T15:46:15Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:46:37Z Xach: If it were me, I would make a function that makes a new suffix like .bz2 by combining the existing name and type into the name and making the new suffix the type. There are many other options. 2018-04-03T15:46:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:46:55Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:47:52Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:48:22Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:49:57Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:51:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T15:51:29Z Shinmera: pathname-utils has functions to get the "real" type and name of a file, but nothing to push/pop types. Should probably add that. 2018-04-03T15:51:30Z Xach: ccl had an approach where the namestring had an escape character distinguishing where the name ended and the type began. i don't remember exactly how it was shown, but it meant you would see something like "foo\.tar.gz" or "foo>.tar.gz" 2018-04-03T15:52:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:55:16Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:56:31Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:56:36Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T15:56:52Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:57:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T15:59:52Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T16:00:13Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:01:25Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:02:17Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:02:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:03:12Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:03:40Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:04:17Z rpg: Pathnames were a reasonable idea, but these days namestrings are more portable. :-/ 2018-04-03T16:05:48Z ak5 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:05:55Z jasom: uiop has some tools for manipulating unix namestrings as well, FWIW 2018-04-03T16:06:21Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:06:56Z rpg: If you think type is bad, wait until you look at HOST and DEVICE! 2018-04-03T16:07:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:08:14Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:08:33Z Shinmera: Well DEVICE is at least somewhat reasonable still due to Windows 2018-04-03T16:09:21Z jasom: Shinmera: but how it works with default pathnames is annoying 2018-04-03T16:10:18Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:10:19Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:10:45Z jasom: see e.g. uiop:merge-pathnames* documentation string 2018-04-03T16:11:12Z jasom: also HOST makes sense with UNC 2018-04-03T16:11:22Z bjxbmc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:11:27Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:11:41Z jasom: \\HOST\SHARE\PATH 2018-04-03T16:13:34Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:14:21Z bjxbmc joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:15:47Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-03T16:20:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:21:57Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:26:07Z jcowan: The Python path library is a pretty good model, actually 2018-04-03T16:27:18Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:29:09Z beach: jcowan: Maybe you missed it, but I told you that SICL and Clasp are very very different implementation. 2018-04-03T16:29:26Z jcowan: I did see that, yes. 2018-04-03T16:29:35Z jcowan: I don't think I ever supposed otherwise. 2018-04-03T16:29:51Z beach: Well you said yes, I was conflating SICL and Clasp there 2018-04-03T16:30:15Z jcowan: Ah. That was a problem of names. 2018-04-03T16:30:27Z jcowan: (forgot for a moment which label was attached to which) 2018-04-03T16:30:35Z beach: I see. 2018-04-03T16:30:45Z beach: Just wanted to set things straight. 2018-04-03T16:32:02Z jcowan: Sure. 2018-04-03T16:32:16Z jcowan: so "conflating" was a poorly chosen word on my part 2018-04-03T16:32:43Z beach: Yes, I see. 2018-04-03T16:32:55Z jcowan: Clasp has a backend, viz. LLVM; SICP doesn't. 2018-04-03T16:33:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:33:31Z beach: Among other things, yes. SICL will have one eventually, of course. 2018-04-03T16:33:46Z beach: Also SICL does not have a line of C or C++ in it. 2018-04-03T16:35:11Z bjhx joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:37:12Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day 2018-04-03T16:38:48Z bjxbmc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:38:50Z jasom: does SICL have an IR yet? 2018-04-03T16:39:39Z beach: Yes. That part (Cleavir, the compiler framework) is working, and Clasp uses it for its main compiler. 2018-04-03T16:40:30Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:40:56Z beach: The first intermediate representation is AST. Then the AST is translated to HIR (High-level Intermediate Representation). 2018-04-03T16:42:00Z jasom: Is HIR at about the level of SBCL's IR1? 2018-04-03T16:42:06Z beach: HIR is pretty much a standard flow graph as in other compilers, except that only Common Lisp objects are manipulated by the instructions, so address calculations are not exposed at that level. 2018-04-03T16:42:20Z beach: By doing it this way, we can do things like type inference in HIR. 2018-04-03T16:42:39Z beach: I haven't looked at the details of SBCL's intermediate representations. 2018-04-03T16:45:33Z jasom: IR1 is a flow graph and it preserves type information. 2018-04-03T16:47:22Z beach: OK. Sounds like they are similar then. 2018-04-03T16:49:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:49:46Z jcowan: But there is nothing wrong with the idea of writing a back end that outputs Scheme and invokes Scheme procedures that implement the primops. 2018-04-03T16:49:52Z jcowan: (afaict) 2018-04-03T16:50:29Z jasom: jcowan: scheme isn't necessarily an optimal kernel language for CL, but it's certainly ported to everything. 2018-04-03T16:50:44Z beach: jcowan: Well, the entire compiler is written in Common Lisp, but if you don't mind having a Scheme compiler written in Common Lisp, then that's fine. 2018-04-03T16:51:11Z jcowan: It would be a Common Lisp compiler that generates Scheme (as opposed to C or C++ or LLVM), not a Scheme compiler. 2018-04-03T16:51:24Z beach: Oh, I see. 2018-04-03T16:51:38Z dlowe: might as well just emit guile bytecode, and have a common lisp frontend to guile 2018-04-03T16:51:38Z phoe: jcowan: it's essentially about writing a compiler from beach's HIR to Scheme 2018-04-03T16:51:56Z phoe: or to Guile bytecode 2018-04-03T16:51:57Z beach: jcowan: Well, SICL has a similar backend already. It takes HIR and translates it into a very simple subset of Common Lisp. 2018-04-03T16:51:58Z jcowan: dlowe: Yes, but generating Scheme means you can use more capable Scheme systems than Guile 2018-04-03T16:52:02Z dlowe: true 2018-04-03T16:52:15Z beach: jcowan: That way, I can execute SICL code inside a Common Lisp host, in this case SBCL. 2018-04-03T16:52:23Z jcowan nods. 2018-04-03T16:52:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:53:45Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:53:52Z jcowan: This is distinct from aeth's desire to have a Scheme compiler that generates Common Lisp. 2018-04-03T16:54:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:54:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:55:04Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-03T16:55:10Z cgay: What does SI stand for in SICL? 2018-04-03T16:55:17Z beach: Nothing. 2018-04-03T16:55:30Z beach: SICL doesn't mean anything. It is just easy to pronounce. 2018-04-03T16:55:34Z beach: "sickle". 2018-04-03T16:56:05Z cgay: I see, thanks. 2018-04-03T16:56:50Z phoe: ...I just realized that if someone tried to make a Common Lisp successor and if they called it Uncommon Lisp, it would be pronounced like "uncle". 2018-04-03T16:56:52Z jcowan: Unfortunately aeth and I were discussing the two ideas at the same time, and I occasionally lost track 2018-04-03T16:56:58Z phoe: UnCL 2018-04-03T16:57:09Z jcowan: Scheme is already "an uncommon Lisp" 2018-04-03T16:57:26Z phoe: jmercouris: correct, but not necessarily a CL successor 2018-04-03T16:57:29Z phoe: uh 2018-04-03T16:57:30Z phoe: jcowan: 2018-04-03T16:57:31Z phoe: jmercouris: sorry 2018-04-03T16:57:40Z warweasle: Is arc still around? 2018-04-03T16:57:53Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/default/rnrs/r2rs.pdf 2018-04-03T16:57:58Z warweasle: I'm slated to learn it in 100 years... 2018-04-03T16:58:23Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T16:59:10Z jcowan: Scheme has also been thought of an as an UNCOL (Universal Computer Oriented Language), or mechanism for translating between any two other computer languages 2018-04-03T16:59:22Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCOL 2018-04-03T16:59:23Z phoe: jcowan: HTTP 404 Not Found 2018-04-03T17:00:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:00:11Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:01:10Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:04:31Z semz: rpg: Thanks for recommending CCL the other day. After a few hours of beating it with a stick it worked without any visible trouble. 2018-04-03T17:04:35Z SlowJimmy quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-03T17:04:47Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:04:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:05:46Z SlowJimmy quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-03T17:06:13Z phoe: semz: you have an uncommon definition of no visible trouble 2018-04-03T17:06:59Z semz: phoe: Well, monkeypatching C code for a while beats random runtime failures 2018-04-03T17:08:06Z phoe: semz: what did you need to patch? 2018-04-03T17:10:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:10:49Z jmercouris: phoe: no problem 2018-04-03T17:12:31Z jmercouris: so let's say we implemented this ficticious CL -> Scheme compiler 2018-04-03T17:12:40Z jmercouris: could we still do the same stuff in CL that we can do now? 2018-04-03T17:12:41Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:12:52Z jmercouris: could we redefine functions, and have this interactivity or no? 2018-04-03T17:13:03Z jmercouris: would the REPL be as capable as it is now? 2018-04-03T17:13:05Z jasom: jmercouris: that is entirely up to how you translate to scheme 2018-04-03T17:13:52Z jmercouris: jasom: I see 2018-04-03T17:13:53Z Shinmera: If you can't redefine functions it's not a standards compliant CL. 2018-04-03T17:14:02Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:14:08Z jmercouris: so CL should be able to run on anything that runs C, correct? 2018-04-03T17:14:19Z jmercouris: considering that ECL exists and it can output shared c libs 2018-04-03T17:14:28Z jmercouris: so why would anyone bother making a compiler to scheme? 2018-04-03T17:14:32Z jmercouris: what might some advantages be? 2018-04-03T17:14:32Z semz: phoe: There were four problems. The first was the usual missing glibc-specific includes, and . Interestingly enough, fpucontrol.h didn't seem to be actually used anywhere. 2018-04-03T17:14:36Z Shinmera: scheme interop 2018-04-03T17:14:37Z jasom: jmercouris: well that's complicated. It does not generate portable C 2018-04-03T17:15:02Z jmercouris: it doesn't generate portable C, that's true 2018-04-03T17:15:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:15:05Z semz: The second was a missing definition of struct _libc_xmm, or more accurately the fact that this struct has no name in musl. A somewhat ugly way to fix that was to define struct _libc_xmm in the same way in the source file 2018-04-03T17:15:06Z jasom: e.g. IIRC it won't run under emscripten, since it assumes a C stack. 2018-04-03T17:15:21Z jmercouris: Shinmera: why would anyone want scheme interop? 2018-04-03T17:15:25Z semz: The third was a glibc-specific function to get a version string which I just replaced with a placeholder 2018-04-03T17:15:28Z jasom: or rather a traditional C stac, (C doesn't specify how the stack is implemented) 2018-04-03T17:15:32Z Shinmera: I don't know, I don't use Scheme. 2018-04-03T17:15:35Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-03T17:15:55Z jmercouris: it seems to me, if anything the most useful would be Lisp -> X86 compiler 2018-04-03T17:15:57Z phoe: semz: oooooh, correct, you ported it to musl! that's a pretty damn nice thing. 2018-04-03T17:16:02Z phoe: jmercouris: there already exists one 2018-04-03T17:16:05Z phoe: it's called SBCL 2018-04-03T17:16:07Z Shinmera: multip,e ones 2018-04-03T17:16:13Z jmercouris: ah, then there is no point in making any others then :D 2018-04-03T17:16:14Z phoe: and also CCL 2018-04-03T17:16:15Z semz: Finally, the kernel would compile but segfault during relocation (do_relocs wrote to j_SPjmpsym which is readonly). This was fixed by disabling PIC though this might bite me later 2018-04-03T17:16:18Z jasom: cmucl, sbcl, and ccl all do that. 2018-04-03T17:16:26Z jmercouris: I had no idea that they did that 2018-04-03T17:16:43Z phoe: jmercouris: if we all had your mentality, we'd still be stuck with punch tapes 2018-04-03T17:16:43Z jmercouris: I just assumed they made fasls and had a specialized "kernel" that could load their own fasls 2018-04-03T17:16:48Z semz: for the time, i have a working CL on here and that's all i care about :) 2018-04-03T17:16:50Z jasom: jmercouris: in sbcl (disassemble (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) 2018-04-03T17:17:11Z jmercouris: phoe: but they would be incredible, plus retro is cool these days 2018-04-03T17:17:12Z phoe: we can compute everything computable by writing programs on punch cards or whatever, there's no point in making any other input device 2018-04-03T17:17:31Z jmercouris: I don't think we can compare punch cards to my compilation ideas 2018-04-03T17:17:37Z jasom: jmercouris: they all have a runtime that implements things like GC, I/O and such, but when you compile a function it generates machine code that only assumes the existence of that runtime. 2018-04-03T17:17:38Z jmercouris: one is the medium you start in, the other is the medium you go to 2018-04-03T17:17:45Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-03T17:18:09Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:18:24Z jmercouris: jasom: wow, it actually made asm on my screen with disassemble, very interesting 2018-04-03T17:18:32Z jcowan: jmercouris: Schemers would like Scheme interop, at least some of them would 2018-04-03T17:18:36Z jcowan: er, CL interop 2018-04-03T17:18:55Z jasom: jmercouris: if you run a profiling run first than disassembly will also have instruction level profiling information 2018-04-03T17:19:13Z jmercouris: jasom: so a FASL is machine code, in SBCL at least 2018-04-03T17:19:17Z jmercouris: so can we run it without the kernel? 2018-04-03T17:19:22Z Bike: nope. 2018-04-03T17:19:31Z Bike: those are separate concerns. 2018-04-03T17:19:31Z Shinmera: SBCL's FASL is a stack machine 2018-04-03T17:19:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:19:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T17:19:49Z Bike: most compiled c programs do not run on bare metal either. there's no need for them to. 2018-04-03T17:19:53Z jasom: fasl is not machine code, because FASL's do more than just load code. 2018-04-03T17:20:01Z jmercouris: Okay, so this compilation then 2018-04-03T17:20:04Z jmercouris: where is it piped to? 2018-04-03T17:20:07Z jmercouris: persisted? 2018-04-03T17:20:13Z jmercouris: when we "compile" a program, where does that asm live? 2018-04-03T17:20:14Z jasom: and that's like asking if you can run a compiled C function without libc... 2018-04-03T17:20:20Z Bike: in the fasl 2018-04-03T17:20:21Z jasom: jmercouris: RAM 2018-04-03T17:20:38Z jasom: jmercouris: and when you save an image, it dumps all of ram to disk, including the compiled functions 2018-04-03T17:21:01Z Bike: do you know what a compiled c program looks like? you get an elf or a mach-o or whatever, which has code, and a bunch of other stuff 2018-04-03T17:21:03Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:21:05Z jasom: the FASL does (among other things) include machine code for the toplevel DEFUNs 2018-04-03T17:21:10Z jmercouris: Bike: yes, I do 2018-04-03T17:21:18Z Bike: ok, so a fasl is like that 2018-04-03T17:21:24Z Bike: it's got code and it's got a bunch of other stuff 2018-04-03T17:21:28Z jmercouris: I see, makes sense 2018-04-03T17:21:34Z jmercouris: I was imagining a completely standalone binary 2018-04-03T17:21:56Z Bike: cooperating with an operating system is cool actually 2018-04-03T17:22:08Z jmercouris: though I assume on embedded devices, for microlisp? ulisp? there is a way to make JUST the instructions that run the program, right? 2018-04-03T17:22:21Z Bike: probably 2018-04-03T17:22:26Z Bike: i don't think there are CLs on embedded though 2018-04-03T17:22:47Z phoe: CL is too huge to be properly embeddable in kilobytes or even megabytes of ram 2018-04-03T17:22:54Z Shinmera: There was Movitz 2018-04-03T17:22:56Z jasom: jmercouris: a "Tree Shaker" will remove all the unused parts of the runtime 2018-04-03T17:23:01Z Shinmera: Well, for bare metal. 2018-04-03T17:23:09Z Shinmera: But yeah, CL won't run embedded. 2018-04-03T17:23:14Z jasom: sbcl does not currently have a working tree shaker (though there was a prototype one about 10 years ago) 2018-04-03T17:23:17Z phoe: Mezzano is bare-metal nowadays 2018-04-03T17:23:54Z jasom: This is odd because embedded devices now adays are much beefier than a mid-80s lisp machine. 2018-04-03T17:23:55Z jmercouris: jasom: "Tree Shaker"? is that referring to the AST? 2018-04-03T17:24:07Z jasom: jmercouris: no, tree of live objects 2018-04-03T17:24:18Z jmercouris: What is the tree of live objects? 2018-04-03T17:24:46Z jmercouris: google doesn't return anything useful 2018-04-03T17:24:46Z dlowe: you have root objects that are always accessible. Those objects refer to other objects that must be kept live. 2018-04-03T17:24:50Z Bike: (cons a b) returns a thing. the thing has a and bin it, or points to them, or whatnot 2018-04-03T17:25:04Z Bike: the cons is a component of the graph of objects in memory 2018-04-03T17:25:05Z dlowe: and those objects refer to other objects, etc. 2018-04-03T17:25:07Z jmercouris: are you telling me that every object in CL has a reference to some root object? 2018-04-03T17:25:12Z Bike: no 2018-04-03T17:25:12Z jmercouris: and they are all interconnected in some tree? 2018-04-03T17:25:18Z Bike: that is actually the opposite of what dlowe said 2018-04-03T17:25:19Z dlowe: sure. how would you reach it otherwise? 2018-04-03T17:25:21Z jasom: jmercouris: well actually it's a graph, but it's a directed graph with known roots. If you remove e.g. the common-lisp package from the roots, then any functions in common-lisp not referenced from your program will "fall out" of the tree. Hence a tree shaker 2018-04-03T17:25:38Z jasom: jmercouris: you have it backwards. All objects in CL are reachable from a set of root objects. 2018-04-03T17:25:49Z jmercouris: Okay, fine, so it is a directed graph and therefore only one way 2018-04-03T17:25:54Z dlowe: right. 2018-04-03T17:25:57Z jmercouris: but nonetheless links exist outwards from some "root object" 2018-04-03T17:26:03Z Bike: root objects. 2018-04-03T17:26:04Z jasom: jmercouris: this is how garbage collectors work. any objects not reachable from the set of root objects are no longer in use, and thus freed. 2018-04-03T17:26:04Z jmercouris: what is that root object? 2018-04-03T17:26:07Z Bike: plural. 2018-04-03T17:26:10Z dlowe: like global variables 2018-04-03T17:26:12Z dlowe: top level functions 2018-04-03T17:26:15Z Bike: packages. 2018-04-03T17:26:17Z dlowe: packages 2018-04-03T17:26:20Z jmercouris: I assume global variables and top level functions are tied to some plist? 2018-04-03T17:26:23Z jasom: jmercouris: the current call stack. 2018-04-03T17:26:25Z Bike: no. 2018-04-03T17:26:27Z Bike: fuck plists. 2018-04-03T17:26:40Z Bike: implementation can store them however it wants. 2018-04-03T17:26:52Z jmercouris: okay, so there is no root object, but a set of root objects that all CL implementations implement? 2018-04-03T17:26:56Z jasom: 40 years ago they were probably in plists 2018-04-03T17:27:04Z jasom: er more like 50 rather 2018-04-03T17:27:07Z phoe: jmercouris: packages are such root objects 2018-04-03T17:27:09Z Bike: the set is variable. 2018-04-03T17:27:23Z dlowe: anyway, a tree shaker lets you specify, explicitly, which root objects you *actually* care about, and then prunes objects that don't have a reference to them. 2018-04-03T17:27:25Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm familiar with several types of garbage collection 2018-04-03T17:27:44Z jmercouris: so we kill everything downstream of whatever roots we aren't interested in? 2018-04-03T17:27:53Z dlowe: theoretically if you don't use the CL compiler, say, it would eliminate that. 2018-04-03T17:27:54Z jmercouris: is there a list of roots that a CL implementation must implement? 2018-04-03T17:27:58Z Bike: no. 2018-04-03T17:28:00Z phoe: jmercouris: no 2018-04-03T17:28:05Z phoe: everything you can reach is alive 2018-04-03T17:28:09Z phoe: everything you cannot reach is dead 2018-04-03T17:28:14Z phoe: that's the basis of all GC algorithms 2018-04-03T17:28:17Z phoe: like, in general 2018-04-03T17:28:22Z jmercouris: phoe: well... :D 2018-04-03T17:28:31Z jmercouris: let's not get into that, especially not when we begin talking about distributed systems 2018-04-03T17:28:40Z Bike: you're already into that 2018-04-03T17:28:50Z jmercouris: that's true, it is an interest of mine 2018-04-03T17:28:55Z Bike: i mean 2018-04-03T17:28:55Z jmercouris: :P 2018-04-03T17:28:58Z Bike: that's what this conversation is about 2018-04-03T17:29:00Z Bike: things being alive 2018-04-03T17:29:01Z jmercouris: no, I know, I'm just joking 2018-04-03T17:29:20Z Bike: so as an example, in lispworks, you usually distribute images that don't include the compiler 2018-04-03T17:29:26Z Bike: because you don't usually need the compiler at runtime 2018-04-03T17:29:31Z jmercouris: okay, so let's say a given implementation, how do they decide what the root objects will be? 2018-04-03T17:29:45Z Bike: so the lispworks whatevermacallit shakes out the compiler functions and stuff that's dead if those aren't in. 2018-04-03T17:30:34Z jasom: jmercouris: everything reachable from the global environment. e.g. everything in all of the packages defined by the implementation (including, but not limited to the COMMON-LISP package) 2018-04-03T17:31:02Z Bike: clhs 3.1.1.1 2018-04-03T17:31:03Z specbot: The Global Environment: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aaa.htm 2018-04-03T17:31:07Z Bike: jsyk 2018-04-03T17:31:25Z jmercouris: Ah, I see 2018-04-03T17:31:35Z jmercouris: thank you for the information everyone 2018-04-03T17:31:35Z jasom: For tree shaking, you just remove all of the non-user-defined packages from the root set, and then anything not used by user-defined packages is no longer reachable, and can be safely deleted. 2018-04-03T17:31:52Z dlowe: The after-tree-shaking image is not guaranteed to be a conforming implementation of CL. :) 2018-04-03T17:31:55Z jasom: It's actually somewhat trickier than that (the devil is always in the details), but that's the idea. 2018-04-03T17:31:59Z jmercouris: jasom: what if the user didn't import a symbol 2018-04-03T17:32:04Z jmercouris: and they were just accessing like :: 2018-04-03T17:32:14Z dlowe: it's worse - what if the user interns symbols by concatenating strings 2018-04-03T17:32:16Z jasom: jmercouris: then it is still *referenced* by their code, and thus usable. 2018-04-03T17:32:33Z jmercouris: ah right, this is already loaded code 2018-04-03T17:32:48Z jmercouris: so the image should know that 2018-04-03T17:32:54Z jmercouris: or whatever it is called 2018-04-03T17:32:58Z jmercouris: I am never sure of which terms to use when 2018-04-03T17:33:09Z jmercouris: I have these nebulous images in my mind of the different components working together 2018-04-03T17:33:13Z jasom: if they try to convert strings to symbols at runtime (e.g. they are implementing an interpreter) it won't work right, but if you have an interpreter then you need the whole runtime anywas and shouldn't be using a tree-shaker. 2018-04-03T17:33:48Z jmercouris: so a tree-shaker, how does it remove these branches/root objects we don't want? 2018-04-03T17:34:03Z jasom: jmercouris: there is already code to do this; it's called the "garbage collector" 2018-04-03T17:34:04Z jmercouris: does it free them from memory? is there some special process? is it tied to the implementation? is there a CL command? 2018-04-03T17:34:19Z jmercouris: okay, so you are telling me we can invoke the GC ourselves in Lisp? 2018-04-03T17:34:21Z pierpa: Scissors 2018-04-03T17:34:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:34:34Z Bike: usually you can invoke the gc, sure. 2018-04-03T17:34:38Z Bike: sb-ext:gc for one 2018-04-03T17:34:40Z jmercouris: via some sort of ext? 2018-04-03T17:34:41Z jmercouris: ok 2018-04-03T17:34:43Z jasom: jmercouris: It is not built into the standard, but almost all implementations provide it. 2018-04-03T17:35:00Z phoe: jmercouris: (trivial-garbage:gc) 2018-04-03T17:35:09Z jasom: jmercouris: plus, most implementations usually run the GC implicitly before saving an image (Because it would be stupid to not to) 2018-04-03T17:35:33Z jmercouris: jasom: I see, yeah that makes sense 2018-04-03T17:35:40Z jmercouris: no need to persist garbage memory 2018-04-03T17:35:52Z dlowe: You could in theory have a conforming CL with manual memory management. 2018-04-03T17:36:02Z jmercouris: I think that would be really cool 2018-04-03T17:36:03Z dlowe: (ext:free obj) 2018-04-03T17:36:15Z jmercouris: is there an sb-ext to disable the GC? 2018-04-03T17:36:24Z phoe: jmercouris: yes 2018-04-03T17:36:25Z Bike: there's a without-gcing 2018-04-03T17:36:25Z jasom: jmercouris: yup 2018-04-03T17:36:29Z Bike: is it exported? 2018-04-03T17:36:35Z Bike: i thought that was an internal interface 2018-04-03T17:36:35Z jmercouris: so you could already do it today then, no? 2018-04-03T17:36:38Z jasom: if you run out of ram with it disabled it panics though. 2018-04-03T17:36:41Z Bike: do what 2018-04-03T17:36:47Z phoe: Bike: I think it is not exported. 2018-04-03T17:36:50Z jmercouris: run lisp with manual memory amangement 2018-04-03T17:36:50Z jasom: and there is no manual free 2018-04-03T17:36:53Z jmercouris: ah, well 2018-04-03T17:36:58Z jmercouris: that is problematic 2018-04-03T17:37:02Z dlowe: jasom: that's what while true; do sbcl; done is for :D 2018-04-03T17:37:02Z Bike: manual memory lack of management 2018-04-03T17:37:38Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T17:37:41Z jasom: ECL with the boehm collector disabled would work; you can use free() to free the objects. 2018-04-03T17:37:53Z Bike: a system with manual memory management but without fixed addresses sounds pretty weird. 2018-04-03T17:38:00Z Bike: like it still copies whenever, you just have to free stuff 2018-04-03T17:38:04Z jmercouris: you could free by symbol or something 2018-04-03T17:38:18Z jasom: Bike: there could be a manually invoked compact() command. 2018-04-03T17:38:37Z dlowe: a big problem with that is dealing with fixnum->bignum promotion 2018-04-03T17:38:56Z jasom: The Raven memory system can sort of work that way. 2018-04-03T17:38:56Z dlowe: you'd have to free your bignums, but you don't actually know when it stops being a fixnum without checking. 2018-04-03T17:39:39Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-03T17:40:38Z Bike: could just have free on fixnums be a no-op. 2018-04-03T17:40:50Z Bike: of course then you still have to free every number you use which is shit. 2018-04-03T17:41:07Z Bike: jasom: can it? the manual side of mps seems a little underdeveloped 2018-04-03T17:41:23Z onion: reference counting 2018-04-03T17:42:10Z phoe: can't deal with cycles that way 2018-04-03T17:42:10Z jasom: One day a student came to Moon and said: “I understand how to make a better garbage collector. We must keep a reference count of the pointers to each cons.”Moon patiently told the student the following story: “One day a student came to Moon and said: ‘I understand how to make a better garbage collector... 2018-04-03T17:42:19Z phoe: jasom: was thinking of posting that 2018-04-03T17:42:59Z onion: cycle = reference 2018-04-03T17:43:29Z Bike: use sentences 2018-04-03T17:44:00Z onion: [you are] missing [a] noun. i would really like the opportunity to organize and lay out my own memory and addresses, that was my favorite thing 2018-04-03T17:44:07Z phoe: onion: there's no way to refer to cycles *as* references without traversing the whole reference tree each time you modify a pointer. 2018-04-03T17:44:09Z knicklux joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:44:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:44:25Z phoe: because a single modification of a reference can either create a cycle or break a cycle or both. 2018-04-03T17:44:35Z onion: the reference count is just a number, starts at 1 on instance create, free object when its at 0 2018-04-03T17:44:49Z Bike: we know what reference counting is 2018-04-03T17:45:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:45:04Z onion: just got to match up the open and close. we lisp dont we? parenthesis...? eh? 2018-04-03T17:45:17Z phoe: onion: no. 2018-04-03T17:45:21Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:46:08Z jasom: onion: #1=(A . #1#) <== this will never be collected because it will always have a reference count of at least 1 2018-04-03T17:46:12Z onion: great work showing me how to english while we give great examples 2018-04-03T17:47:09Z onion: nah, no to all, lets not share or cooperate 2018-04-03T17:48:02Z makomo: i added the quicklisp loading code into my .sbclrc but it seems i can't use any of ql's functionality directly after (load quicklisp-init) is evaluated? 2018-04-03T17:48:12Z makomo: i get "Package QL does not exist." 2018-04-03T17:48:41Z phoe: makomo: are you using symbols from the QL package in the same form where you do the LOAD? 2018-04-03T17:48:43Z makomo: i wanted to add a few lines of code which would automatically push a path onto ql:*local-project-directories* and call (ql:register-local-projects) 2018-04-03T17:48:57Z makomo: phoe: nope, after 2018-04-03T17:49:09Z makomo: the whole thing is wrapped in a let which contains the (load ...) and then my stuff 2018-04-03T17:49:18Z jasom: that's all in the same toplevel form then 2018-04-03T17:49:18Z phoe: makomo: that's in the same form. 2018-04-03T17:49:27Z jasom: QL doesn't exist when the LET form is read 2018-04-03T17:49:29Z makomo: oh i see 2018-04-03T17:49:37Z phoe: (let (make-package :foo) 'foo:bar) 2018-04-03T17:49:40Z phoe: uh sorry 2018-04-03T17:49:42Z makomo: hm yeah, true... 2018-04-03T17:49:43Z phoe: (progn (make-package :foo) 'foo:bar) 2018-04-03T17:49:54Z phoe: this will error at read-time because at read time there is no package FOO 2018-04-03T17:49:59Z makomo: ah i see, it's looked up at read-time 2018-04-03T17:50:03Z makomo: mhm, got it 2018-04-03T17:50:16Z phoe: onion: the problem of reference counting has been solved many times and there are no sane ways of turning cycle information into reference counts, which are numbers. 2018-04-03T17:50:56Z phoe: each time you modify a pointer, you have to traverse the tree and see what changed. so basically after every modification of a reference, you run GC. 2018-04-03T17:54:29Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:54:50Z sjl: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~cs415/reading/bacon-garbage.pdf is a good read if you haven't already seen it 2018-04-03T17:55:22Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:55:54Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:56:09Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T17:56:09Z lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 2018-04-03T17:56:20Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-03T17:57:37Z Baggers: the slime-repl code says 'This used to be the default REPL for SLIME, but it was hard to maintain' what is the default repl used in slime now? 2018-04-03T17:58:34Z cgay: heh, now it's hard to maintain AND mysterious. 2018-04-03T17:58:53Z Xach: Baggers: inferior-lisp, I think, is the default. my impression is that few go with it. 2018-04-03T18:00:18Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2018-04-03T18:00:22Z Baggers: Xach: Cheers. So the common case is probably still slime-repl then? I've just been using slime-fancy for ever without thinking about it 2018-04-03T18:00:56Z fourier: phoe: it is sort of solved via using different kind of reference counted pointers and by thinking about objects life time and ownership. to solve cycle problem you just have to think if the object is allowed to hold the life cycle of another object or not, and use weak pointer if not 2018-04-03T18:02:53Z msb joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:04:30Z fourier: phoe: see this example http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/weak_ptr/lock 2018-04-03T18:06:28Z jasom: fourier: weak pointers work for many useful types of data structures, but not for the general case 2018-04-03T18:07:27Z jasom: e.g. a tree with parent pointers, it's obvious that the parent pointer can be weak; a doubly-linked list, one of the two links can be weak &c. But if it's "I represent a bunch of nodes that may be a coset of other bunches of nodes, and they are directed" there is no solution 2018-04-03T18:08:39Z Xach: Baggers: that's my impression, yeah. slime-fancy is the easiest way to get it 2018-04-03T18:09:06Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-03T18:09:09Z Baggers: Xach: thanks, that helps a bunch 2018-04-03T18:12:28Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T18:13:24Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-03T18:14:51Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:15:37Z rme: the tracing gc is a brilliant invention. 2018-04-03T18:16:18Z beach totally agrees. 2018-04-03T18:17:38Z asarch: "A half abstraction is expressed in code by a manifestation of the pattern, you're guaranteed to have massive code duplication with all the normal bad consequences that implies for maintainability." —Practical Common Lisp 2018-04-03T18:18:09Z asarch: Are patterns only for OOP programing? 2018-04-03T18:18:32Z jasom: asarch: the GoF patterns are very Java specific 2018-04-03T18:18:58Z jasom: e.g. the visitor pattern goes away if your language has closures. 2018-04-03T18:20:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T18:20:13Z jasom: asarch: with- is a pattern used in lisp, for example. 2018-04-03T18:20:43Z jasom: for manually managed resources that tend to have dynamic scope. 2018-04-03T18:21:00Z asarch: Is there any book of patterns for Lisp? 2018-04-03T18:21:33Z jasom: https://norvig.com/design-patterns/ppframe.htm 2018-04-03T18:21:34Z onion: recipes for common lisp 2018-04-03T18:22:03Z onion: phoe: okay, i see and didnt know that; havent come across many cycling stuff in my time of refcounted platforms 2018-04-03T18:22:06Z jackdaniel: patterns (in GoF sense) are considered unnecessary in CL, where you have macros which can capture such patterns in a good abstraction 2018-04-03T18:22:29Z jackdaniel: (at least I've encountered such opinion and I tend to agree with it) 2018-04-03T18:22:35Z jasom: jackdaniel: I gave a counterexample to that just a few lines earlier; the with- macro pattern. 2018-04-03T18:22:50Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:23:10Z jackdaniel: I see 2018-04-03T18:23:41Z jackdaniel: Common Lisp could use of some design patterns though, not GoF like though 2018-04-03T18:23:51Z jackdaniel: arranging libraries around protocols could be one 2018-04-03T18:24:09Z jackdaniel: having separate package for interface and for implementation is a nice idea too 2018-04-03T18:24:32Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:25:25Z jackdaniel: having plugins which could be loaded into existing system could be 'standarized' if we had protocol-oriented libraries for instance 2018-04-03T18:26:28Z jackdaniel: "avoid macros if you can express something as a function" is a pattern too (sadly some programmers doesn't follow it) 2018-04-03T18:27:18Z phoe: I wouldn't call proper style conventions patterns 2018-04-03T18:27:39Z jackdaniel: it's not a style convention. programs behave differently depending on that 2018-04-03T18:27:53Z phoe: they are repeatable, in a way, but they definitely do not mean the same as design patterns in more javalike programming languages. 2018-04-03T18:28:38Z disumu joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:28:45Z jackdaniel: design patterns are some clues how to arrange things to make them work. it would be suprising if same design patterns would apply to fundamentally different languages. 2018-04-03T18:30:35Z Bike: sometime i should actually flip through that book on architecture and see how it got so big on programming of all things 2018-04-03T18:31:02Z aeth: jackdaniel: I would say "if you can express something as an inline function" rather than "as a function". If people are doing macros for performance, the only persuasive alternative is inline functions. 2018-04-03T18:31:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:31:55Z sindan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T18:32:46Z voidlily_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T18:33:26Z sindan joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:35:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:36:25Z voidlily joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:38:21Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T18:38:45Z galdor2 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:39:34Z ghard` joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:39:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T18:39:39Z gz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:39:47Z aeth: I think design patterns are more architectural, though. 2018-04-03T18:39:49Z gbyers_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:40:51Z aeth: Perhaps things like how to structure your with- macros, e.g. this article: http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html 2018-04-03T18:40:56Z dmh_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T18:42:05Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 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2018-04-03T19:40:45Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T19:40:47Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T19:44:29Z Winterschlaf left #lisp 2018-04-03T19:45:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T19:45:13Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T19:46:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T19:46:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T19:50:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-03T19:59:41Z phf joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:00:15Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-03T20:00:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:00:59Z phf: what was the name of the project of implementing most of the Standard in portable lisp, that i believe beach was working on and that the c++/llvm lisp compiler is using? 2018-04-03T20:01:12Z phoe: phf: SICL? 2018-04-03T20:01:23Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:01:34Z phf: ah that's it, thank you very much 2018-04-03T20:02:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T20:02:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:03:08Z phf left #lisp 2018-04-03T20:04:16Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2018-04-03T20:08:07Z onion: is it possible to.... link symbols, like a symbolic link in the filesystem? for eg 'this-symbol points to whatever 'this-other-symbol points to 2018-04-03T20:08:19Z Xach: onion: no 2018-04-03T20:08:25Z Xach: onion: not like a symbolic link, anyway. 2018-04-03T20:08:47Z onion: hm ok., nothing like symbol alias ? 2018-04-03T20:10:14Z phoe: onion: non-evaluated symbols? nope 2018-04-03T20:10:19Z phoe: but wait a second 2018-04-03T20:10:23Z phoe: what do you mean by "point"? 2018-04-03T20:10:36Z phoe: you can define a symbol macro if that is what you want 2018-04-03T20:10:38Z cgay: symbol-macrolet? 2018-04-03T20:10:52Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:11:40Z cgay: But it sort of sounded like onion wanted something more permanent / global. 2018-04-03T20:11:54Z phoe: clhs define-symbol-macro 2018-04-03T20:11:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 2018-04-03T20:12:01Z jcowan quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-03T20:12:04Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-04-03T20:12:11Z phoe: that's much more permanent I guess 2018-04-03T20:12:29Z dlowe: ah, lispworks came back up after all 2018-04-03T20:12:33Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:12:45Z phoe: would be a business pity for them if they didn't 2018-04-03T20:13:06Z jcowan: Scheme actually permits more redefinition of functions than CL does 2018-04-03T20:13:20Z jcowan: In particular, you can redefine standard functions provided that doing so does not impact other functions 2018-04-03T20:13:37Z jcowan: e.g. you can redefine car to do something else, but this must not affect the definition of cadr 2018-04-03T20:14:11Z ecraven: wouldn't it be much more interesting if it *did* affect other functions? :D 2018-04-03T20:14:12Z dlowe: you can convince a CL implementation to do this, too, but it's not portable 2018-04-03T20:14:15Z Shinmera: I fail to see how that's particularly different from just having it be undefined 2018-04-03T20:14:41Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:14:45Z Shinmera: as in, having the behaviour undefined 2018-04-03T20:14:51Z jcowan: right 2018-04-03T20:15:11Z jcowan: In practice nobody does it, of course. 2018-04-03T20:15:39Z onion: well yeah, hmm, wait we cant redefine builting CL fun ? 2018-04-03T20:15:47Z oleo: nope 2018-04-03T20:15:57Z oleo: there's no overloading 2018-04-03T20:16:15Z onion: hmm 2018-04-03T20:16:19Z phoe: it is very much undefined to do so 2018-04-03T20:16:25Z Shinmera: I mean you can do it 2018-04-03T20:16:26Z phoe: so much that the standard actually says it's undefined. 2018-04-03T20:16:33Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:16:38Z onion: ah 2018-04-03T20:16:39Z Shinmera: it's just not clear that it's going to do what you expect it to 2018-04-03T20:17:06Z oleo: it's like mutating state 2018-04-03T20:17:07Z onion: that would be quite the implementation to define the behavior of .. changing parts of CL =) 2018-04-03T20:17:18Z oleo: and maybe causing overall havoc on the whole..... 2018-04-03T20:17:40Z Shinmera: clhs 11.1.2.1.2 2018-04-03T20:17:41Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 2018-04-03T20:18:04Z onion: in smalltalk its totally cool, to change system stuff, undefined behavior is kind of assumed to do that stuff too. people are a bit self conscious when they find themselves changing system core guts ... 2018-04-03T20:18:17Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:18:25Z jcowan: Programs are allowed to redefine built-in procedures. 2018-04-03T20:18:25Z jcowan: Doing so will not change the behavior of 2018-04-03T20:18:25Z jcowan: other built-in procedures." (R5RS) 2018-04-03T20:18:58Z Xach: I like changing internal behavior in my favorite implementation but I don't expect it to work on anything but the version of the implementation I changed. 2018-04-03T20:19:40Z onion: jcowan: ah cool, so in scheme, the stuff that already "links" or refers/points to system builtins, they are still ok ? 2018-04-03T20:19:52Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:20:13Z jcowan: Well, redefining car may or may not change the behavior of user code 2018-04-03T20:20:19Z phoe: onion: so it is permitted to tweak your implementation's internals - just don't expect any kind of support when you do so on your own 2018-04-03T20:20:21Z jcowan: e.g. in a pure interpreter it probably will 2018-04-03T20:20:48Z jcowan: in a native code compiler it probably will not 2018-04-03T20:20:57Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:21:38Z aeth: Clearly, the solution with a native code compiler is to recompile everything that uses car so that the desirable new behavior is used. 2018-04-03T20:21:38Z jcowan: In R6RS and R7RS it is an error to mutate an identifier that has been imported 2018-04-03T20:21:43Z pierpa_: isn-t the compiler broken, if redefining a function has no effect? 2018-04-03T20:21:44Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:21:53Z jcowan: A *standard* function. 2018-04-03T20:22:07Z jcowan: aeth's approach is the only thing that would actually work 2018-04-03T20:22:11Z aeth: pierpa_: I suspect that car is always inlined 2018-04-03T20:22:14Z onion: yea, recompile 2018-04-03T20:22:19Z onion: hm cool 2018-04-03T20:22:32Z pierpa_: aeth: I suspect this too 2018-04-03T20:22:33Z jcowan: and if car is redefined to return a newly created car object, the likelihood of the compiler continuationg to work after a pervasisve change is small 2018-04-03T20:23:04Z aeth: But, hey, with my method at least you might get a compilation error. 2018-04-03T20:23:44Z pierpa_: jcowan: I seem to remember that it is possible to redefine CAR. No standard function must change behaviour because of this change. 2018-04-03T20:23:52Z pierpa_: has this changed recently? 2018-04-03T20:24:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:24:26Z pierpa_: so, IIRC, redefining CAR can't break the compiler 2018-04-03T20:24:33Z jcowan: pierpa_: That's what R5RS says. 2018-04-03T20:24:36Z pierpa_: it can only break user code 2018-04-03T20:24:41Z pierpa_: aha! 2018-04-03T20:24:52Z jcowan: In R6RS and R7RS systems, car is imported from a library, and that makes it an error to redefine it 2018-04-03T20:25:01Z pierpa_: ok. got it 2018-04-03T20:25:13Z jcowan: "an error" = undefined behavior 2018-04-03T20:25:17Z pierpa_: k 2018-04-03T20:25:27Z onion: so for ex., i could modify the symbol lookup stuff a bit, hackish, and add my own little symbol list for lookup. not that symbol links/aliases have any practical use, im just curious 2018-04-03T20:25:35Z jcowan: beach: What is the compilation unit of Cleavir? 2018-04-03T20:26:19Z oleo: welp, it's better when you write a compiler for your hacks.... 2018-04-03T20:26:54Z oleo: and spawn/create/bootstrap the real thing.... 2018-04-03T20:27:07Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:27:12Z oleo: instead of trying to fiddle with the runtime system 2018-04-03T20:27:50Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:28:15Z onion: yeah =) 2018-04-03T20:29:18Z onion: CL especially being one of the least tempting runtimes to 'customize' considering its purpose. albeit general =) 2018-04-03T20:30:17Z oleo: yah, the when the runtime system says it's UBER it doesn't have to be UBER when you port your ideas.... 2018-04-03T20:30:23Z oleo: and implement it correctly.... 2018-04-03T20:31:42Z oleo: s/UBER/UB/ 2018-04-03T20:31:44Z oleo: meh 2018-04-03T20:32:19Z aeth: I wouldn't trust a runtime system written by Uber 2018-04-03T20:33:18Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:33:35Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:33:49Z oleo: welp, he can supplement the standard, just like any other implementor does..... 2018-04-03T20:36:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:42:22Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:43:45Z pagnol: I'm looking for something that would allow me to verify that an s-expression has a certain structure in a declarative fashion 2018-04-03T20:44:09Z fourier: destructuring-bind ? 2018-04-03T20:45:16Z |3b|: check-type ? (for relatively simple structures at least) 2018-04-03T20:45:27Z |3b|: or typep 2018-04-03T20:45:44Z pagnol: hmm.. maybe I underestimated destructuring-bind, I'll take another look 2018-04-03T20:46:06Z pagnol: I was thinking of something along the lines of json schema 2018-04-03T20:46:32Z phoe: pagnol: pattern matching library, like trivia 2018-04-03T20:47:02Z sjl: If you give an example, folks can give better recommendations. 2018-04-03T20:47:36Z aeth: destructuring-bind and a trivial do-destructuring-bind macro are the way to go, probably. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/840ea66d8f264ddaa11d4c65ebb348febe8e77c6/data/shader.lisp#L43-47 2018-04-03T20:47:40Z |3b|: (typep '(1 (b)) '(cons number (cons (cons (member b c))))) -> t 2018-04-03T20:47:52Z pagnol: take something like what defpackage or defsystem takes as an example 2018-04-03T20:48:12Z |3b|: typep doesn't scale very well though :) 2018-04-03T20:48:15Z pierpa_: I think they want a schema checker. Can't do with a simple destructuring-bind. 2018-04-03T20:48:29Z aeth: right, you need do-destructuring-bind 2018-04-03T20:48:34Z oleo: isomorph-p 2018-04-03T20:48:40Z pagnol: I would like to declaratively specify that what follows :depends-on should be a list of keywords, for example 2018-04-03T20:48:40Z aeth: i.e. dolist and then destructuring bind on each sublist 2018-04-03T20:48:44Z oleo: but that's not declarative 2018-04-03T20:49:41Z aeth: you can combine destructuring-bind and the 5-line do-destructuring-bind to write a declarative macro that essentially combines them. Probably < 40 lines. 2018-04-03T20:49:55Z aeth: I'm not aware of a current implementation, but I wouldn't be surprised 2018-04-03T20:49:57Z oleo: (defun isomorph-p (a b) (cond ((atom a) (atom b)) ((atom b) nil) ((isomorph-p (car a) (car b)) (isomorph-p (cdr a) (cdr b))) (t nil))) 2018-04-03T20:50:13Z |3b| wonders if there are any better parsers available for lists than last time i looked. most of the ones i found only worked on character input 2018-04-03T20:54:22Z onion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T20:55:04Z jasom: which is more idiomatic: (apply #'funcall foo) or (apply (car foo) (cdr foo)) 2018-04-03T20:56:38Z Bike: i'm gonna say the latter, but i've never seen it outside of an evaluator 2018-04-03T20:56:55Z pierpa_: I don't know about idioms, but the second one is way more perspicuous 2018-04-03T20:57:04Z Xach: I'd be more likely to use first/rest. 2018-04-03T20:57:10Z Xach: also: (eval foo) (not really) 2018-04-03T20:57:37Z jasom: (eval foo) has different semantics than the others 2018-04-03T20:57:50Z jasom: Bike: In this case it's a trampoline for a state machine. 2018-04-03T20:58:07Z pierpa_: (it was a joke. I think :) 2018-04-03T20:58:23Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T20:59:53Z Xach: jasom: in the case of function objects vs symbols in the car? Or something else? 2018-04-03T21:02:16Z jasom: Xach: in the case of the environment (e.g. flet) 2018-04-03T21:02:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:02:54Z Bike: apply doesn't know any more about the environment than eval does. 2018-04-03T21:02:59Z jasom: actually I'm not sure flet makes a difference 2018-04-03T21:03:15Z jasom: hmm, I'm sure there's a difference. Let me think. 2018-04-03T21:03:16Z Xach: jasom: that seems to be a variation of what i said. (which does not bother me...just want to make sure i understand.) 2018-04-03T21:03:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:04:50Z travv0 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:04:58Z aeth: Something like this is more idiomatic imo: (let ((foo `(+ 1 2 3))) (destructuring-bind (symbol &rest arguments) foo (check-type symbol symbol) (apply symbol arguments))) 2018-04-03T21:05:03Z aeth: car/cdr is unsafe! 2018-04-03T21:05:16Z aeth: destructuring-bind makes your assumptions concrete and that gives you more useful errors when they're wrong! 2018-04-03T21:05:26Z whonion joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:05:54Z jasom: ah function object in the CAR does not work certainly 2018-04-03T21:06:02Z aeth: car/cdr/caaddr/cdddadr/etc. are just ways to get a random NIL. And in CL (car NIL) => NIL and (cdr NIL) => NIL so you don't know where the NIL was introduced, so you don't know where the s-expression was malformed. 2018-04-03T21:06:17Z jasom: doesn't work with eval, but does work with funcall/apply 2018-04-03T21:07:11Z jasom: (eval (list (lambda () 1))) doesn't work, for example 2018-04-03T21:08:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:09:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T21:11:21Z _death: but (eval (list '(lambda () 1))) does 2018-04-03T21:12:18Z whonion quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:12:20Z _death: anyway, (apply (car list) (cdr list)) is what I always use 2018-04-03T21:13:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:16:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:18:43Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:18:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:20:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:21:12Z onion joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:21:25Z onion is now known as whoman 2018-04-03T21:23:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:23:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:27:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:28:03Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:28:14Z cgay: (eval '(list x y)) => error if x or y unbound. (apply #'funcall '(list x y)) => '(x y) Or did I misread the question...it seems too obvious. 2018-04-03T21:29:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:29:21Z jasom: cgay: you have a list that is of the form (FUNCTION ARG*) and you want to call the function with the arguments. 2018-04-03T21:30:02Z cgay: Isn't '(list x y) a list of that form? 2018-04-03T21:30:22Z jasom: cgay: yes, but so is `(,(lambda () 1)) 2018-04-03T21:30:31Z jasom: cgay: and that works with funcall, but not eval 2018-04-03T21:31:40Z cgay: ok, I'm just pointing out that eval also evaluates all of the args as well, whereas apply/funcall will happily pass along the symbols. 2018-04-03T21:33:36Z jasom: this is also a good point, if any of the arguments are non-self-evaluating 2018-04-03T21:33:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:34:04Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:34:47Z jasom: hmm, what other than lists and symbols are non-self-evaluating in lisp 2018-04-03T21:35:26Z jasom: well conses and most symbols 2018-04-03T21:35:31Z jasom: *most non-keyword symbols 2018-04-03T21:35:41Z Bike: lists and symbols are the only non self evaluating things. 2018-04-03T21:35:52Z jasom: nil is both a symbol and a list and is self-evaluating 2018-04-03T21:36:12Z Bike: the only non self evaluating things are lists or symbols. 2018-04-03T21:36:15Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:36:26Z jasom: I couldn't think of any others, but it's good to know 2018-04-03T21:36:46Z Bike: i guess an implementation could define others, probably. 2018-04-03T21:36:48Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:36:53Z jasom: though make-load-form could mess with that, right? 2018-04-03T21:37:06Z Bike: mess with what's self evaluating? 2018-04-03T21:37:11Z jasom: yeah 2018-04-03T21:37:20Z Bike: stuff with a load form is still self evaluating, it just has arbitrary effects at load time. 2018-04-03T21:37:31Z Bike: the load forms have arbitrary effects, rather 2018-04-03T21:38:16Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T21:38:16Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2018-04-03T21:38:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T21:38:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:38:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-03T21:38:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:39:18Z jeosol: Morning guys 2018-04-03T21:41:14Z jeosol: Need some help on condition system to make my code not blow up depending on input. I am calling a function (evaluation solution ..) which does a bunch of calculation steps. One of these steps could fail making the whole evaluation invalid 2018-04-03T21:41:32Z jeosol: and would stop the evaluation, and that error makes the whole run fail 2018-04-03T21:42:13Z jeosol: so I want to wrap this top function with conditions so if it fails, I assign some variables and move on. 2018-04-03T21:43:10Z jeosol: Based on what I read, I have to throw some error (could be same error type for simplicity) in the different steps and just invoke a predefined restart. Does this sound right 2018-04-03T21:43:53Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T21:43:59Z Bike: So you have something like (loop for run in runs do (compute run)), and compute sometimes fails, but in that case you want to continue to the next run? 2018-04-03T21:44:56Z jeosol: More or less Bike, that is right. Sometimes, I ship the runs via parallel function, but let's discuss the serial case 2018-04-03T21:45:14Z Bike: alright, well for that you might not need restarts. 2018-04-03T21:45:33Z |3b|: yeah, sounds like you just need to catch the existing errors 2018-04-03T21:45:34Z jeosol: There are several other functions things might fail at and I can't instrument each sub function with conditions/restarts 2018-04-03T21:45:39Z Bike: sure. 2018-04-03T21:46:12Z jeosol: If I call the function, and error results because of some incompatability in parameters, I just given a high objective function value (disregard case) and move on to next 2018-04-03T21:46:26Z |3b|: restart would let you do things like change a value and continue a particular calculation (or configure how you wanted to handle errors at the top level if you have multiple options for that) 2018-04-03T21:46:34Z Bike: you probably want to use handler-case. 2018-04-03T21:46:59Z jeosol: yes |3b|, I have some other code using restart, but I was thinking there is a probably a simple way to do this 2018-04-03T21:47:30Z jeosol: I have something with handler-bind that invokes one of the automatic restarts for a simple test case. 2018-04-03T21:47:51Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:48:49Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:49:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:49:09Z jeosol: I worked through the log file analyzer example in PCL and have a case that works for that example. I still have to consider instrumentation with parallel call. 2018-04-03T21:49:38Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-03T21:51:50Z jeosol: But that example, has a way to test if the entry is even valid. Then proceed with normal proceed or have a restart-case. There are two points of failure, with my CL code when processing the parameters, and then another black-box I call that could also fail 2018-04-03T21:52:36Z jeosol: even if the CL side executed fine. I just want to call everything one error and be done. Not much time to really instrument code and identify failure points and type. 2018-04-03T21:53:13Z Bike: you can just handle, like, 'error' 2018-04-03T21:53:19Z Bike: superclass of any error 2018-04-03T21:53:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T21:53:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T21:53:42Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:53:52Z whoman joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:54:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:54:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-03T21:54:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:55:36Z jeosol: Bike: that sounds like it, I was thinking a different type of error that inherits for 'error' 2018-04-03T21:55:56Z jeosol: sorry guys if this not clear, haven't slept much later. 2018-04-03T21:56:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T21:57:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:58:34Z jeosol: It seems the idea is go near the potential failure points and throw the error, then wrap my function evaluation code with handler-bind where I specify one restart to invoke automatically. 2018-04-03T21:58:52Z |3b|: presumably the failure points already ERROR 2018-04-03T21:59:22Z jeosol: |3b|, I am wondering if have to do that 2018-04-03T21:59:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T21:59:52Z |3b|: so if you just want to completely ignore a run, (handler-case (compute run) ((error (e) (format *error-io* "run ~s failed" run)))) or similar 2018-04-03T22:00:22Z pierpa_: maybe just IGNORE-ERRORS is enough? 2018-04-03T22:00:42Z pierpa_: clhs ignore-errors 2018-04-03T22:00:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm 2018-04-03T22:00:53Z |3b|: yeah, i usually just use ignore-errors rather than handler-case on ERROR 2018-04-03T22:01:12Z |3b|: just store the 2nd value so you can see what the error was in the output :) 2018-04-03T22:01:36Z |3b|: (but same with handler-case, don't just drop it there either) 2018-04-03T22:02:08Z jeosol: not sure if I explained correctly. If run is good F(X) = value from successful run, if bad, F(X) = 1e9. So what I do is initial F(X) variable to 1e9, and if call was sucessful, it will have the correct value. 2018-04-03T22:02:38Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:03:22Z |3b|: though if you have time to find specific expected failures, handling those specifically reduces chances of missing some typo and getting more failures than the input would normally cause on its own 2018-04-03T22:03:28Z jeosol: specbot and pierpa: I checked that link 2018-04-03T22:04:02Z jeosol: I think for now, ignore-errors is the quicker and easier solution 2018-04-03T22:04:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:04:43Z jeosol: |3b|: yes, I do plan a full instrumentation with condition system so as identify other recovery mechanisms, 2018-04-03T22:04:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:05:08Z |3b|: ignore-errors also could be useful for finding the errors you would want to eventually handle explicitly, if you store them and make a report at the end or whatever 2018-04-03T22:05:37Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:05:48Z jeosol: and better identify the failure points. But this option should really work. 2018-04-03T22:05:55Z sendai___ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:06:00Z jeosol: |3b| makes a lot of sense. 2018-04-03T22:06:01Z |3b|: or handler-bind + something like trivial-backtrace 2018-04-03T22:06:04Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T22:06:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:06:38Z |3b|: to find failure points in bulk rather than 1 at a time :) 2018-04-03T22:08:27Z travv0 joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:09:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:11:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:11:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:12:00Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:12:00Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-03T22:12:00Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:12:20Z rpg: Fare added backtracing functionality to UIOP, because needed in ASDF. 2018-04-03T22:12:49Z Shinmera: Don't use trivial-backtrace, use Dissect! 2018-04-03T22:14:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:15:33Z jeosol: Shinmera: is Dissect some other library 2018-04-03T22:15:47Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell jeosol look up dissect 2018-04-03T22:15:47Z Colleen: jeosol: About dissect https://shinmera.github.io/dissect#about_dissect_ 2018-04-03T22:16:28Z jeosol: |3b| what do you mean by failure points. My evaluations are serial, so there should be one failure point. Or you mean it will keep track of callers 2018-04-03T22:16:43Z jeosol: Merci Shinmera/Colleen 2018-04-03T22:18:06Z |3b|: i mean ignore-errors/handler-case will just tell you what the errors were, not where they were signalled (which may be enough to find the problems, depending on the code) 2018-04-03T22:18:21Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:19:08Z |3b|: handler-bind and dissect will let you store a stack trace at each error, so if it fails in different places with different inputs, you can find all of those at once 2018-04-03T22:19:20Z jeosol: |3b|, sure eventually I need to be able to identify there the errors are, so I will have to come up with some error hierarchy eventually. 2018-04-03T22:19:32Z |3b|: whether that is worth the extra effort or not depends on your worlkflow 2018-04-03T22:19:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:19:52Z jeosol: |3b| that will be useful eventually. 2018-04-03T22:20:29Z jeosol: for me on the development side, but for users, I would use some automated option, e.g., handle the error smartly, repair solutions, etc 2018-04-03T22:21:28Z jeosol: guys, I am happy to say, I ran small test case twice, after wrapping my F(X) code within (ignore-errors ..) and both times it ran to completion. 2018-04-03T22:21:54Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:22:52Z drmeister: What is a good documentation system for Common Lisp API's? 2018-04-03T22:23:11Z Shinmera: drmeister: You mean something that gathers symbols and docstrings and smashes them into a document? 2018-04-03T22:23:13Z pierpa_: IIRC 2018-04-03T22:23:17Z pierpa_: IRC 2018-04-03T22:23:37Z drmeister: Say I had a technical writer and I want to write documentation for functions and classes or an API? 2018-04-03T22:23:55Z drmeister: Then generate web pages, DESCRIBE strings, PDF files 2018-04-03T22:24:08Z jasom: drmeister: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/lisp-document-generation-apps 2018-04-03T22:24:26Z Shinmera: Naturally I recommend my own, called Staple. 2018-04-03T22:24:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:24:37Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up staple 2018-04-03T22:24:37Z Colleen: About staple https://shinmera.github.io/staple#about_staple 2018-04-03T22:24:57Z drmeister: Shinmera: What haven't you written? :-) 2018-04-03T22:25:07Z Shinmera: drmeister: Oh so many things :( 2018-04-03T22:25:08Z drmeister: A build system and an editor - apparently. 2018-04-03T22:25:12Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T22:25:53Z jasom thought pretty much everyone had written a build system. 2018-04-03T22:26:51Z jasom: Shinmera: isn't stable html output only? 2018-04-03T22:27:03Z Shinmera: Yes 2018-04-03T22:27:04Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T22:27:36Z jasom: so you'd need to do html -> PDF for PDF documents 2018-04-03T22:27:40Z Shinmera: Sure. 2018-04-03T22:27:44Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:27:53Z jasom: which is "not terrible" with an appropriate style sheet 2018-04-03T22:28:07Z jasom: (fwiw staple was the winner of the "API Generator" category of sabra's review 2018-04-03T22:29:09Z Shinmera: Staple is also being continuously improved. 2018-04-03T22:29:35Z Shinmera: There's been a couple of major improvements over the last half year or so thanks to prompts by Baggers. 2018-04-03T22:30:25Z Shinmera: So I'm quite happy to work on it if people come up with problems or ideas. 2018-04-03T22:30:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:31:01Z jasom: declit is my "least non-favorite" of the "make a full manual" family 2018-04-03T22:32:14Z rpg: What I would most like to see is a tool like declit that lets you add structure by putting in arbitrary text (the stuff that tells users the big picture), and lets you rearrange entries to suit a structure that's not the same as the codes' 2018-04-03T22:32:48Z jasom: rpg: documentation-template does this IIRC 2018-04-03T22:32:57Z jeosol: jasom: two negatives ... meaning you don't like? 2018-04-03T22:33:08Z rpg: is that the one that is used by SBCL? 2018-04-03T22:33:13Z jasom: jeosol: right, it's the least bad 2018-04-03T22:33:17Z jasom: rpg: it's the one used by all ediware 2018-04-03T22:33:27Z jasom: jeosol: I don't like it, but it's better than others I've tried 2018-04-03T22:33:31Z rpg: jasom: I'll have a look at it, thanks! 2018-04-03T22:34:10Z jasom: https://edicl.github.io/cl-who/ <-- example 2018-04-03T22:34:23Z jeosol: so I took a quick look at the sabraonthehill link and there is a comment about adding tutorial type material in Staple 2018-04-03T22:34:33Z Shinmera: Also, Sabra's page on the generators is outdated / inaccurate for Staple 2018-04-03T22:35:25Z jeosol: Oh I see, I would love to take a look at documentation systems. Didier's post a while ago about some library tool discussed about Declit 2018-04-03T22:35:54Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:36:18Z shwouchk_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:36:40Z jasom: I have not used Staple, so it may be my new least non-favorite once I get the chance to try it :) 2018-04-03T22:36:40Z Shinmera: I'm not sure why Sabra has lots of "no"s in his table for things like author, license, etc. as those have always been outputted by Staple since day one. 2018-04-03T22:38:35Z Shinmera: Staple can also be used as a full manual generation. Which symbols are outputted can be configured. 2018-04-03T22:39:21Z Shinmera: I'm rethinking how to make the symbol selection process more easily customisable right now, so hopefully that'll be more convenient soon. 2018-04-03T22:39:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:41:45Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:42:34Z rpg: Shinmera: Can we have multiple chapter manuals from Staple? 2018-04-03T22:42:55Z Shinmera: Chapters for the symbols? 2018-04-03T22:43:30Z Shinmera: Or do you mean like multiple files for the entire documentation. 2018-04-03T22:43:36Z jeosol: Do you mean technical manual (not code text)? 2018-04-03T22:44:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:44:58Z trocado joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:46:42Z rpg: Shinmera: Something like ASDF -- you could have a chapter for the object model, a chapter for plan-building, etc. It would be conceptually organized. 2018-04-03T22:47:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:47:51Z rpg: sorry -- I meant, imagine you were documenting a system like ASDF. 2018-04-03T22:48:08Z rpg: so you might have a chapter on using it, on configuring it, on extending it, etc. 2018-04-03T22:49:03Z Shinmera: Well, the cop-out answer is that you can do anything (rainbows) since you can write your own template. To answer your question otherwise, the main "documentation body" is parsed from another file -- typically the README.md, so whatever structure you put in there is output into the resulting HTML. If you want to chop up the symbol indexes and intermix them with your main documentation body then that's currently 2018-04-03T22:49:06Z Shinmera: not convenient easily possible. 2018-04-03T22:49:19Z rpg: Thanks! 2018-04-03T22:50:02Z Shinmera: If you look at the template, the bulk of it is taken up by the symbol index, which is the main thing Staple does. https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/modern.ctml#L99-L158 2018-04-03T22:50:37Z Shinmera: It does some minor stuff like primitively analysing segments in the resulting body to try and provide cross-references, but the main documentation text is largely left untouched. 2018-04-03T22:51:14Z Shinmera: It could do more, I suppose, if I had a good idea about what people want it to do for that. 2018-04-03T22:53:18Z SAL9000: Shinmera: In regards to staple's analysis of "See XYZ" -- any particular reason that you're ignoring cross-package See links? In other words, I'm extending/wrapping another package - I want to cross-reference it's docs (in staple-browser). 2018-04-03T22:54:16Z Shinmera: Staple-browser is just a small hack that invokes staple directly. For staple "usually", it has no way of knowing where the documentation for another project lives, so it can't make a link to it. 2018-04-03T22:54:43Z SAL9000: ah. I've been pretty much treating staple as a doc-browser more than an doc-generator. :) 2018-04-03T22:55:12Z Shinmera: Well, good to hear it's being used! 2018-04-03T22:55:33Z Shinmera: That behaviour could definitely be improved though. Providing a way to let staple know how to resolve cross references would be good. 2018-04-03T22:55:37Z Shinmera makes a note 2018-04-03T22:56:40Z SAL9000: FWIW, it *does* put an element in, but foo:bar makes a bogus #link and foo::bar makes a link to a nonexistent file (iirc it'd make a link to ./bar) 2018-04-03T22:56:43Z SAL9000: this is all in staple-browser 2018-04-03T22:57:03Z Shinmera: Hrm. 2018-04-03T22:57:20Z Shinmera: Is this on latest? 2018-04-03T22:57:29Z SAL9000: whatever's in quicklisp 2018-04-03T22:57:46Z SAL9000: can re-test with latest though 2018-04-03T22:57:58Z Shinmera: Please do. I don't remember if I did fix something like that recently or not. 2018-04-03T22:58:28Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-03T22:58:33Z SAL9000: OK. 2018-04-03T22:58:33Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T22:59:20Z jasom: https://www.scribd.com/document/375473123/Foo <-- automatic conversion of staple to PDF with pandoc is not terrible 2018-04-03T22:59:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-03T22:59:54Z Shinmera: Hm, yeah, not too bad. Could definitely use smaller margins though. 2018-04-03T23:00:03Z jasom: it does need the margins reduced so that it doesn't overflow the no-break lines 2018-04-03T23:00:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:00:49Z SAL9000: you probably want to use pandoc for html->latex then mess with the source before pdflatex'ing 2018-04-03T23:01:11Z jasom: SAL9000: most of the things you would mess with in the header you can do on the pandoc command line with -V 2018-04-03T23:01:20Z SAL9000: true 2018-04-03T23:01:57Z SAL9000: looks like method & function names get a ton of extra paragraph breaks in the pdf, although maybe that's scribd web viewer brokenness 2018-04-03T23:02:37Z jasom: SAL9000: nope that appears too. Would be fairly simple to make html more friendly for pandoc conversion without changing the appearance I bet. 2018-04-03T23:02:56Z jasom: https://www.scribd.com/document/375473288/Staple-v2 <-- smapper margins with -V geometry:margin=1.5cm 2018-04-03T23:03:33Z Shinmera: Yeah that's probably due to how the tags are laid out 2018-04-03T23:03:44Z jasom: or div vs. span 2018-04-03T23:03:45Z Shinmera: Could easily make a custom template geared for pdfs. 2018-04-03T23:04:02Z Shinmera: I'll throw it on the issues while I'm at it. 2018-04-03T23:05:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:05:28Z jasom: ah, it looks like it is the since each group gets its own line, and the is interrupting the blocks. 2018-04-03T23:05:44Z Shinmera: Alright, I need to head off to bed, but I'll gladly read about more suggestions once I wake up. Good night! 2018-04-03T23:05:49Z SAL9000: o/ 2018-04-03T23:06:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:08:44Z DVSSA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-03T23:09:00Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:09:27Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:13:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T23:20:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:20:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:20:45Z bjhx quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-03T23:22:29Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:25:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:25:59Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:29:26Z emaczen joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:29:32Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:30:09Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-03T23:30:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:34:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:34:51Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-03T23:35:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:38:02Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-03T23:38:45Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:39:23Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:39:27Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2018-04-03T23:45:05Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-03T23:46:13Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Cleavir is designed to be used to build the compiler(s) of Common Lisp, i.e. COMPILER-FILE, COMPILE, EVAL. So the unit to compile is either a file or a top-level lambda expression. 2018-04-04T04:25:02Z jcowan: When you are using the SBCL back end, and you compile a file, do you get a file? 2018-04-04T04:25:34Z beach: No, I just do it by the top-level expression. And it stays in memory. 2018-04-04T04:25:39Z beach: But I could. 2018-04-04T04:25:54Z beach: I could translate to Common Lisp, write it to a file, call the SBCL compiler on it. 2018-04-04T04:25:59Z jcowan nods 2018-04-04T04:26:32Z jcowan: I read the LispOS paper 2018-04-04T04:26:38Z beach: Oh, good. 2018-04-04T04:26:52Z jcowan: Something it lacks is a means to undo mutation at the user level 2018-04-04T04:27:20Z beach: I think I have a phrase in there somewhere, but I haven't designed any general mechanism. 2018-04-04T04:27:24Z jcowan nods 2018-04-04T04:27:26Z beach: It might be tricky to do. 2018-04-04T04:27:38Z jcowan: Definitely. One possibility is to use a trail a la Prolog 2018-04-04T04:27:51Z jcowan: I thought at first the chapter on checkpointing would address that 2018-04-04T04:28:38Z beach: Not really. That's more about keeping the system consistent in case of a crash. 2018-04-04T04:30:32Z jcowan: Is a compiled top-level lambda compiled into an SBCL lambda, then? 2018-04-04T04:30:56Z beach: It's more involved than that... 2018-04-04T04:31:51Z beach: First the top-level lambda expression is turned into an AST, then to HIR, and that process returns a lambda expression that corresponds to a FASL file. So it has to be "tied" (or linked if you prefer) to a first-class global environment. 2018-04-04T04:32:34Z beach: That lambda expression is then compiled and executed on some arguments, like the environment. 2018-04-04T04:32:53Z _krator44 is now known as krator44 2018-04-04T04:33:01Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-04T04:33:01Z krator44 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T04:33:01Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-04T04:33:01Z krator44 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T04:33:12Z beach: The side effects from executing that function will create the functions, variables, and other side effects that would normally happen when a FASL is loaded. 2018-04-04T04:34:50Z jcowan: How is the 1CGE represented in SBCL? 2018-04-04T04:34:59Z jcowan: Presumably it is not SBCL's environment. 2018-04-04T04:35:09Z beach: Correct. 2018-04-04T04:35:26Z beach: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf 2018-04-04T04:39:09Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-04T04:42:04Z jcowan: Good, I'll read that. 2018-04-04T04:42:15Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-04T04:42:22Z jcowan: Some of the historical section of the LispOS paper contains errors, but I'm not going to fuss over them now 2018-04-04T04:42:27Z beach: Great! If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. 2018-04-04T04:42:47Z beach: jcowan: OK, but I would like to know at some point. 2018-04-04T04:42:47Z pyericz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-04T04:42:58Z beach: Can you give me a hint? 2018-04-04T04:45:08Z jcowan: Processes predate Unix by many years: they were already available in OS/360 (1964) 2018-04-04T04:45:26Z beach: Right. 2018-04-04T04:45:35Z beach: I didn't think I hinted that Unix invented them. 2018-04-04T04:45:37Z jcowan: The only real novelty in Unix is pipes 2018-04-04T04:45:43Z beach: But I'll check. Thanks. 2018-04-04T04:46:07Z jcowan: You say that processes exist because of the limited memory of minicomputers, but they were born on mainframes 2018-04-04T04:46:11Z beach: I knew they existed before. In fact Multics had them too. 2018-04-04T04:46:21Z beach: That remains true though. 2018-04-04T04:46:36Z beach: Oh, I should not have said mini. 2018-04-04T04:46:41Z beach: Thanks. 2018-04-04T04:46:44Z beach: I'll fix it. 2018-04-04T04:46:52Z jcowan: Multics had typically one process per user session 2018-04-04T04:46:59Z beach: It did, yes. 2018-04-04T04:47:54Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T04:50:21Z jcowan_: HODIE NATUS EST RADICI FRATER 2018-04-04T04:51:18Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T04:57:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:00:24Z beach: jcowan_: Were you also a Multics user? 2018-04-04T05:00:35Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-04T05:00:55Z beach: jcowan_: I re-read that paragraph, and as a result, I removed the "mini" prefix. Thanks for pointing that out. 2018-04-04T05:07:42Z travv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T05:09:04Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:10:39Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:12:21Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:14:20Z bjorkintosh: one process per user session? what do you do with that?? 2018-04-04T05:15:52Z clog joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:16:22Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:16:35Z ldb: sup 2018-04-04T05:25:47Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:31:45Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:34:26Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:36:29Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:37:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:40:21Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:40:39Z nydel joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:44:55Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:48:10Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:51:33Z k-hos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T05:52:00Z k-hos joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:54:09Z bkst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:55:17Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T05:55:23Z beach: bjorkintosh: You have been brainwashed by UNIX. 2018-04-04T05:55:30Z bkst joined #lisp 2018-04-04T05:56:49Z beach: bjorkintosh: For example, when a program fails, in Multics, you have access to the stack. Then you can try to to fix the problem, say an attempt to call a function that does not exist, type `continue' and the execution continues. 2018-04-04T05:57:29Z beach: bjorkintosh: In many ways, the Multics development environment was similar to our Lisp environment, and in many ways better than what our free Common Lisp implementations can do. 2018-04-04T05:59:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:01:06Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:04:06Z ldb: Which has been said from `the Arise of Worse is Better', included in the appendix of the UNIX Haters Handbook 2018-04-04T06:05:01Z ldb: As for Multics, I prefer TOPS-20 instead. 2018-04-04T06:05:20Z Naergon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T06:11:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T06:15:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:15:57Z ancient_dog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:17:10Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:17:54Z bjorkintosh: interesting. 2018-04-04T06:17:58Z ancient_dog joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:18:17Z bjorkintosh: ldb, TOPS-20? was it any good? 2018-04-04T06:19:10Z shrdlu68: I call CL the "undead language" - it's alive, only with an unholy, supernatural vigor. 2018-04-04T06:20:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:20:49Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:24:12Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:25:05Z beach: ldb: I find it more interesting to compare Multics and TOPS-20 on the one had to UNIX, Windows, MacOS, Android on the other hand, than to compare Multics and TOPS-20. My point in the LispOS specification is that we can do much better than what current systems do, and we have a good model for it, namely our Common Lisp environments. 2018-04-04T06:25:16Z beach: on the one HAND 2018-04-04T06:25:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:26:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:28:19Z ldb: beach: do you think it is a good idea to mix RAM and Disk in LispOS? 2018-04-04T06:28:23Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:28:34Z beach: "mix"? 2018-04-04T06:29:52Z beach: I see RAM as a cache for disk. 2018-04-04T06:30:01Z bjorkintosh: a VERY fast one. 2018-04-04T06:30:19Z beach: bjorkintosh: What do you mean? 2018-04-04T06:30:19Z ldb: ok, i see 2018-04-04T06:31:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:32:34Z ldb: however i would like to see specialized device for such an environment 2018-04-04T06:32:45Z beach: Why is that? 2018-04-04T06:32:47Z epony: pinch of salt here, "What Every Programmer Should Know About Memory" - Ulrich Drepper (2007) https://www.akkadia.org/drepper/cpumemory.pdf 2018-04-04T06:33:11Z beach: Oh, haven't seen his name for some time. 2018-04-04T06:33:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:33:21Z whonion joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:34:21Z onion quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:34:55Z epony: Not much changed since the time the paper got written, except maybe NUMA if it's not mentioned there. 2018-04-04T06:36:01Z ldb: beach: beacause von neumann machine has limitations on abstraction extent 2018-04-04T06:36:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:36:19Z beach: ldb: That is way to vague for me to understand. 2018-04-04T06:38:00Z bjorkintosh: beach isn't RAM access faster than disk access by definition? 2018-04-04T06:38:09Z beach: bjorkintosh: Yes, so? 2018-04-04T06:38:30Z flip214: bjorkintosh: only if the RAM being accessed is "present" and not paged out... 2018-04-04T06:38:34Z beach: bjorkintosh: It is about virtual memory. We know how to do that. 2018-04-04T06:38:34Z bjorkintosh: well that's its point then! 2018-04-04T06:38:39Z whonion is now known as whoma 2018-04-04T06:38:48Z flip214: and if your swap device is a remote iSCSI disk, the local trash /tmp might still be much faster than that 2018-04-04T06:38:48Z beach: bjorkintosh: We have been able to do that for half a century. 2018-04-04T06:38:51Z whoma is now known as whoman 2018-04-04T06:38:54Z bjorkintosh: :-) 2018-04-04T06:40:12Z ldb: beach: I mean, as long as we are working on it, we have to sacrifice either performance or convenience, can't detach from heavy work of dealing with ugly hardware interface 2018-04-04T06:40:25Z bjorkintosh: I'd never really heard of TOPS-20. What sort of lisp did it run? 2018-04-04T06:40:27Z bjorkintosh: Maclisp? 2018-04-04T06:40:32Z beach: ldb: I don't believe that's true. 2018-04-04T06:40:33Z ldb: yes, and interlisp 2018-04-04T06:40:45Z bjorkintosh: interlisp. Interesting. you've used it, ldb? 2018-04-04T06:41:23Z ldb: sure. i also looked eulisp 2018-04-04T06:41:25Z whoman is now known as _onion 2018-04-04T06:41:55Z epony: I still think it's a funnily stupid idea to consider double trickery in application virtualisation against the host OS for the same resource abstracting away the hardware to absolutely irrelevant ideas like "unlimited transparent secondary storage". 2018-04-04T06:42:22Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T06:42:26Z _onion is now known as on_ion 2018-04-04T06:42:51Z ldb: i agree 2018-04-04T06:43:12Z epony: Either context switch in the OS, or the OS is the language interpreter and be done with the OS concept once and for allllllll. 2018-04-04T06:43:33Z epony: (kbd stuck on l) 2018-04-04T06:45:06Z ldb: common lisp's file io is poor 2018-04-04T06:46:10Z ldb: any suggestions on effcient way of reading a file until certian char or EOF? 2018-04-04T06:47:37Z ldb: currently i use a buffer to read each 8192 bytes into vectors and search on it 2018-04-04T06:48:34Z ecraven: mmap it 2018-04-04T06:49:11Z flip214: ldb: use structured data instead? Eg. via a length tag at the beginning? 2018-04-04T06:50:08Z flip214: ldb: and as for ecraven's recommendation (I'd have suggested mmap, too ;), see https://github.com/zodmaner/trivial-mmap 2018-04-04T06:50:53Z ecraven: also, I've read recently that mmap is not significantly faster than just reading, it just might be more convenient 2018-04-04T06:51:29Z ldb: flip214: ecraven: i could do mmap, but i also want to process stream data like UNIX stdin 2018-04-04T06:52:28Z on_ion: no binary stream lib ? 2018-04-04T06:53:08Z lagagain joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:54:01Z ldb: good point 2018-04-04T06:54:31Z flip214: ecraven: the IO access is mostly the same... spinning platter means 4-12 msec, etc. 2018-04-04T06:57:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:57:58Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-04T06:59:13Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:00:04Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:00:22Z verisimilitude: Hello there. 2018-04-04T07:00:28Z beach: Hello verisimilitude. 2018-04-04T07:01:24Z ldb: hi 2018-04-04T07:01:28Z phoe: heyyy 2018-04-04T07:01:33Z beach: I think I must study this interesting psychological phenomenon that I am frequently confronted with. Like in our "incremental parsing" paper, we do orders of magnitude better than Emacs, but we are told that we must also solve the halting problem at typing speed. 2018-04-04T07:01:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:01:41Z verisimilitude: I've been writing some Common Lisp programs others may find interesting and figured I maybe should mention them here, if you're interested. 2018-04-04T07:02:02Z verisimilitude: Unfortunately, these aren't yet added to quicklisp, but that's in process. 2018-04-04T07:02:10Z ldb: great 2018-04-04T07:02:11Z beach: And in my LispOS specification, I suggest something that is way better than what we now have, and I am told I also need to solve the Von Neumann bottleneck. 2018-04-04T07:02:26Z verisimilitude: So, you'd be interested, ldb? 2018-04-04T07:02:57Z ldb: verisimilitude: i'm urging for text processing realated things 2018-04-04T07:03:07Z verisimilitude: In that case, here are the three links: 2018-04-04T07:03:07Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-12-30 2018-04-04T07:03:07Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-12-31 2018-04-04T07:03:07Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/2018-04-04 2018-04-04T07:03:19Z verisimilitude: The latter two relate to control of terminal devices, ldb. 2018-04-04T07:04:04Z verisimilitude: So, in order, the first is SHUT-IT-DOWN, which is a single symbol package that can be used to exit the implementation; one of the nicknames is QUIT and so you can call it as (QUIT:QUIT). 2018-04-04T07:04:42Z verisimilitude: The second is an implementation of the ECMA-48 standard, Control Characters for Coded Character Sets; surprisingly, it doesn't seem like anyone had implemented this in Common Lisp, before me. 2018-04-04T07:04:47Z ldb: verisimilitude: splendid, that mean i dont have to use ncurses 2018-04-04T07:04:53Z verisimilitude: Exactly, ldb. 2018-04-04T07:05:27Z verisimilitude: The third and last is ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, which as an abstract program for controlling terminals; it uses CL-ECMA-48, the second. 2018-04-04T07:05:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:06:07Z verisimilitude: Follows is an early excerpt from the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL documentation: 2018-04-04T07:06:07Z verisimilitude: >I also have a large disgust with the use of Curses varieties in Common Lisp programs, as this unnecessarily and substantially complicates using such a program. Risking memory leaks shouldn't be necessary to control a terminal. 2018-04-04T07:06:38Z shrdlu68: verisimilitude: Nice. 2018-04-04T07:06:46Z verisimilitude: Thank you. 2018-04-04T07:08:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:09:45Z verisimilitude: In designing the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL interface, I naturally found myself using SETF for some functionality and so decided this was best for all functionality. 2018-04-04T07:10:06Z verisimilitude: So, all current functionality can be expressed in terms of SETF, naturally. 2018-04-04T07:10:44Z verisimilitude: As an example, (CURSOR) returns the cursor location corresponding to the stream argument, which defaults to *STANDARD-OUTPUT*; (SETF CURSOR) is used to reposition the cursor, similarly. 2018-04-04T07:12:44Z ldb: setf is so good even emacs have absorbed it into language core 2018-04-04T07:13:21Z _main_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:14:03Z flip214: beach: "if you're going to start work on that, do it RIGHT" is the general assumption, I guess. 2018-04-04T07:14:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:15:04Z angelo|2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:15:21Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:15:49Z angelo|2 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:16:11Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2018-04-04T07:16:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:16:32Z shrdlu68: verisimilitude: If I understand this right, acute-terminal-control simply spits out ANSI control codes, right? 2018-04-04T07:16:54Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:16:54Z shrdlu68: s/control/escape/ 2018-04-04T07:17:14Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-04T07:17:41Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T07:18:10Z verisimilitude: It uses ECMA-48 control functions, yes. 2018-04-04T07:18:28Z _main_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:18:38Z shrdlu68: Ah, those have been implemented before, such as https://github.com/pnathan/cl-ansi-text 2018-04-04T07:19:18Z phoe: verisimilitude: SHUT-IT-DOWN is already implemented by UIOP:QUIT, see https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/image.lisp#L59 2018-04-04T07:19:53Z shrdlu68: verisimilitude: What's currently missing is one such library that also has low-level control of the terminal, which would reqiure making syscalls to the OS. 2018-04-04T07:21:19Z phoe: verisimilitude: your terminal stuff does look nice - please add it to quicklisp via https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects 2018-04-04T07:21:57Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2018-04-04T07:22:19Z verisimilitude: I've already taken a look at several of these projects, shrdlu68, and they all either use a Curses or a simply inefficient. 2018-04-04T07:22:37Z LdBeth: shrdlu68: you never need syscalls to operate on terminal devices 2018-04-04T07:22:48Z verisimilitude: I've been in #quicklisp trying to have it added for months now, phoe. 2018-04-04T07:22:52Z verisimilitude: I don't use github. 2018-04-04T07:23:44Z phoe: verisimilitude: you don't need to use github 2018-04-04T07:23:46Z verisimilitude: You may be interested by taking a look at CL-ECMA-48; I implement all 162 control functions that optimize the representations sent and the code to do this is also optimized. 2018-04-04T07:23:46Z beach: flip214: Yes, but that's not how things work. Incremental improvement is the key. 2018-04-04T07:24:16Z phoe: simply put them on any host from where they can be cloned by git, and then ask someone who uses github to make an issue on quicklisp-projects 2018-04-04T07:24:22Z verisimilitude: I know, phoe, which is why I've been using #quicklisp. 2018-04-04T07:24:47Z phoe: multiple QL projects are cloned from git repos that are not hosted on many of the big git services. 2018-04-04T07:24:48Z verisimilitude: I don't use version control. 2018-04-04T07:25:27Z verisimilitude: I do, however, provide each of these as a gzipped tar file; currently, the latest issue Xach informed me of was that they didn't decompress into their own directory, which has been corrected. 2018-04-04T07:25:42Z phoe: okiedokie. 2018-04-04T07:25:55Z verisimilitude: Regardless, I appreciate your help, phoe. 2018-04-04T07:26:32Z LdBeth: verisimilitude: one thing I most concern, which is lacked in ncurses, does it support Unicode display? 2018-04-04T07:26:48Z verisimilitude: Does it permit sending Unicode? 2018-04-04T07:26:52Z verisimilitude: There's no reason it shouldn't. 2018-04-04T07:27:28Z verisimilitude: It only sends control functions through Common Lisp streams; anything that can be sent through should be fine. 2018-04-04T07:27:34Z jdz: verisimilitude: Just out of curiosity: why don't you use version control? 2018-04-04T07:27:48Z verisimilitude: Each of these projects is a single file; why would I? 2018-04-04T07:28:01Z jdz: To do experiments, for instance. 2018-04-04T07:28:12Z verisimilitude: That's what I take backups for. 2018-04-04T07:28:18Z LdBeth: 👍 thumbnail up 2018-04-04T07:28:20Z jdz: Git is basically a tool to make snapshots of a directory. 2018-04-04T07:28:27Z verisimilitude: I also simply dislike the idea that I should manually run a version control tool; it should be handled for me, but it isn't. 2018-04-04T07:28:51Z verisimilitude: Now, you touched on something interesting, shrdlu68. 2018-04-04T07:28:55Z jdz: How would a tool automatically DWIM (do what i mean)? 2018-04-04T07:29:07Z shrdlu68: LdBeth: Yes you do, see man 3 termios. 2018-04-04T07:29:34Z verisimilitude: Here's an excerpt from the end of the ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL documentation: 2018-04-04T07:29:34Z verisimilitude: >Functionality which may be added is as follows: control over input echoing; control over whether input is buffered by the system and whether reading will block or not. 2018-04-04T07:29:34Z verisimilitude: >The preceding functionality both cannot be implemented with purely ECMA-48 functionality nor in portable Common Lisp and so the utility of adding it is put into question. It is thought, perhaps, the functionality will always pretend to be present or not available to the environment otherwise, but this is undecided. 2018-04-04T07:29:52Z verisimilitude: Well, for one, jdz, a file system should regularly take backups. 2018-04-04T07:30:05Z jdz: I'm not talking about backups. 2018-04-04T07:30:10Z verisimilitude: However, UNIX certainly doesn't do this and probably never will. 2018-04-04T07:30:34Z verisimilitude: Then what do you mean, jdz? 2018-04-04T07:30:50Z jdz: For instance, working on two different implementations of the same feature at once. 2018-04-04T07:31:18Z jdz: Switching between them, merging parts eventually. 2018-04-04T07:31:21Z verisimilitude: I use comments for that. 2018-04-04T07:32:03Z verisimilitude: If I don't necessarily need to run the program yet, I don't even need comments. 2018-04-04T07:33:26Z jdz: The next step is when your code is released, people may contribute improvements. This activity is concurrent by definition. 2018-04-04T07:33:50Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:34:32Z LdBeth: shrdlu68: well it’s OS’s job to provide a try, but I don’t think controlling display and move cursor around requires more syscalls except write to the device 2018-04-04T07:34:34Z verisimilitude: That's true, but I would simply manage that manually until it became unwieldy. 2018-04-04T07:35:02Z epony: verisimilitude try cvs a spin, it is designed to track progress on simple files 2018-04-04T07:35:23Z LdBeth: Just like in the old days 2018-04-04T07:35:23Z jdz: epony: really? CVS in 2018? 2018-04-04T07:35:35Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T07:35:38Z verisimilitude: I'd prefer to avoid complicating my setup until it's absolutely necessary, but I appreciate the suggestion, epony. 2018-04-04T07:36:04Z LdBeth: Even artists use GitHub 2018-04-04T07:36:09Z Cymew quit 2018-04-04T07:36:31Z verisimilitude: Now, the issue with adding that functionality to ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL is that it does require syscalls; there is, however, the fact that this could still be done in a way that avoids UNIX shared library garbage does make it seem appealing if it's utterly necessary. 2018-04-04T07:36:47Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:36:49Z jdz: I personally like Git because it is a dumb tool to manage snapshots of a directory tree, with a lot of tooling built around it (including Emacs integration). 2018-04-04T07:36:52Z verisimilitude: Most implementations provide some manner of syscall interface. 2018-04-04T07:37:22Z verisimilitude: If I ever used version control under UNIX, it would probably be required that I could use it only from Emacs, while avoiding the tool itself as much as I can. 2018-04-04T07:37:49Z verisimilitude: How many of you are using Emacs as your IRC client? 2018-04-04T07:37:52Z schweers: friends don’t let friends use CVS in 2018 2018-04-04T07:38:07Z jdz: verisimilitude: I use Circe. 2018-04-04T07:38:17Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:38:28Z schweers uses ERC 2018-04-04T07:38:40Z LdBeth: verisimilitude: for controlling low level io, please look this http://quickdocs.org/trivial-raw-io/ 2018-04-04T07:38:46Z jdz: I also use Gnus for email... 2018-04-04T07:38:59Z schweers: ditto :) 2018-04-04T07:39:11Z verisimilitude: I already did, LdBeth, and it's insufficient for my purposes. 2018-04-04T07:39:17Z epony: verisimilitude you can do transparent revisioning like this https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/VersionControl 2018-04-04T07:39:24Z verisimilitude: For one, it supports very few implementations. 2018-04-04T07:39:25Z LdBeth: Use Wanderlust for mail and feeds 2018-04-04T07:40:11Z verisimilitude: I'll keep it in mind, epony. 2018-04-04T07:40:15Z epony: verisimilitude actually rcs is pretty much sufficient for per file revisioning and is the easiest thing ever 2018-04-04T07:41:51Z ebzzry_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:42:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:42:33Z verisimilitude: Well, there's also the point that SHUT-IT-DOWN and CL-ECMA-48 probably won't see much change now; the latter in particular is rather finished, unless I discover a flaw. 2018-04-04T07:42:43Z verisimilitude: So, there's no point in handling those files, now. 2018-04-04T07:43:20Z LdBeth: My irc is a small script and I was looking for a good terminal interface lib for a while, and that’s why I get excited today 2018-04-04T07:43:21Z verisimilitude: Regardless, I'm curious as to what you all think of these three programs, so far. 2018-04-04T07:44:00Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:44:35Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-04T07:45:00Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T07:45:01Z verisimilitude: That's nice, LdBeth. 2018-04-04T07:46:03Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:47:43Z phoe: verisimilitude: SHUT-IT-DOWN is duplicated by UIOP:QUIT, the other two are pretty fun. I might use them when I write a terminal application. 2018-04-04T07:49:24Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-04T07:50:58Z verisimilitude: Xach also expressed this concern, phoe, but SHUT-IT-DOWN has a better interface (I think), supports far more implementations, is significantly smaller and more targeted, and is under a more permissive license. 2018-04-04T07:51:36Z verisimilitude: With these arguments, Xach didn't seem opposed to adding it. 2018-04-04T07:52:02Z loke: There is also a QUIT in trivial-shell 2018-04-04T07:52:10Z loke: I know, because I merged that :-) 2018-04-04T07:52:22Z loke: (or maybe it's called EXIT, i can't remember) 2018-04-04T07:54:26Z verisimilitude: I wasn't aware of that, but would be inclined to believe SHUT-IT-DOWN supports more implementations than that as well. 2018-04-04T07:54:58Z loke: I can't remember which impelemntations trivial-shell supprots. 2018-04-04T07:56:02Z loke: Hmm... sbcl, allegro, clisp, cmucl, mcl, scl, openmcl, lispworks, ecl and abcl 2018-04-04T07:56:40Z verisimilitude: Well, SHUT-IT-DOWN supports eighteen, if you don't count MCL variants as more than one. 2018-04-04T07:57:02Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-04T07:57:02Z verisimilitude: Take a peak at it; it's very brief. 2018-04-04T07:57:11Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/shut-it-down.lisp 2018-04-04T07:57:13Z loke: I generally use uiop these days. 2018-04-04T07:57:46Z loke: verisimilitude: Looking at the code, I can see it doesn't support exit codes. 2018-04-04T07:57:53Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-04T07:58:04Z antoszka: huh, what's POPLOG? 2018-04-04T07:58:06Z verisimilitude: I'd support MOCL, but I can't find any documentation and the developers won't respond to my emails. 2018-04-04T07:58:12Z antoszka: Never heard of such an implementation ;) 2018-04-04T07:58:46Z verisimilitude: Asides from MOCL, there's just Movitz and the Lisp machines I'd want to support, but those are in odd states for searching for this. 2018-04-04T08:00:02Z verisimilitude: Exit codes are irrelevant to Common Lisp and I find it inelegant to have an interface like this pay them any mind. 2018-04-04T08:00:44Z verisimilitude: Would an exit code make any sense under MOCL, as one example? 2018-04-04T08:00:58Z verisimilitude: It's just a UNIXism. 2018-04-04T08:01:14Z epony: Like processes and files. 2018-04-04T08:01:31Z LdBeth: antoszka: prolog is not even Lisp 2018-04-04T08:01:32Z epony: And what is this hardware that we must use then, let's run on paper. 2018-04-04T08:01:45Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:02:00Z jackdaniel: LdBeth: poplog is not the same thing as prolog 2018-04-04T08:02:06Z verisimilitude: UNIX didn't invent processes nor files, epony, but it's done a good job at implementing them poorly. 2018-04-04T08:02:17Z jackdaniel: poplog is a common runtime and a compiler suite for a variety of languages, Common Lisp included 2018-04-04T08:02:38Z jackdaniel: not sure how complete CL implementation in Poplog is, I'd bet on ClTl2 2018-04-04T08:02:54Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:02:55Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:03:03Z jackdaniel: CLtL2° 2018-04-04T08:03:08Z verisimilitude: Well, it also supports Emacs-CL, which certainly isn't finished. 2018-04-04T08:03:55Z epony: Good ideas stick around. Missing on an idea can always be corrected. 2018-04-04T08:04:06Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: sounds like a solid task you have acomplished – congrats 2018-04-04T08:04:19Z LdBeth: jackdaniel: I remember it is a implementation of several languages including prolog 2018-04-04T08:04:25Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:04:49Z jackdaniel: sure, but looking at antoszka question prolog is not very relevant, is it? 2018-04-04T08:05:03Z ancient_dog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:05:10Z antoszka: Yeah, I've read up, now I know what poplog-CL is. 2018-04-04T08:05:15Z antoszka: Thanks, jackdaniel. 2018-04-04T08:05:29Z jackdaniel: sure 2018-04-04T08:05:31Z LdBeth: I admit I misread that 2018-04-04T08:06:19Z LdBeth: Sorry about that 2018-04-04T08:06:58Z jackdaniel: nothing to be sorry about, there were no malicious intent 2018-04-04T08:07:49Z verisimilitude: It's the same reason you should use USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME instead of simply hardcoding "~/", epony. 2018-04-04T08:08:15Z verisimilitude: It's Common Lisp, not Common UNIX Lisp. 2018-04-04T08:09:19Z epony: Right, I need a boot loader. 2018-04-04T08:10:29Z jackdaniel: being correct is a matter of forward compatibility 2018-04-04T08:10:37Z jackdaniel: being almost correct is a matter of current needs 2018-04-04T08:10:39Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:10:49Z jackdaniel: code ceases to be maintained, but well written code works longer 2018-04-04T08:11:11Z loke: jackdaniel: Like the Maxima code I'm digging through now :-) 2018-04-04T08:11:23Z blurgh joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:11:34Z jackdaniel: heh 2018-04-04T08:11:58Z loke: It was well written back when it was written. These days, it's... aged. 2018-04-04T08:12:10Z loke: But, it still works. :-) 2018-04-04T08:12:25Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:12:26Z loke: When was macsyma written by the way? *0's? 2018-04-04T08:12:28Z loke: 80's? 2018-04-04T08:13:24Z LdBeth: It is by Symbolics 2018-04-04T08:13:51Z blurgh: I installed stumpwm from source using make, and it gave me a warning from cl-ppcre. Nevertheless, it compiled and I set up .xinitrc. startx gave me a blank window. loke: early '70s IIRC. It predates Symbolics. I think it was made on the ITS. 2018-04-04T08:14:06Z LdBeth: 80’s 2018-04-04T08:14:15Z loke: right. First versions ran on ITS 2018-04-04T08:14:39Z blurgh: apparently there's a wikipedia article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macsyma 2018-04-04T08:14:45Z blurgh: late '60s 2018-04-04T08:15:25Z LdBeth: MIT has a “tradition” of selling researches to commercial companies 2018-04-04T08:16:08Z blurgh: Is it still maintained? 2018-04-04T08:16:30Z epony: The only problem is the I in ITS. 2018-04-04T08:16:43Z loke: blurgh: Yes. It's called 2018-04-04T08:16:50Z loke: blurgh: Yes. It's called Maxima now 2018-04-04T08:16:58Z loke: It's actually very good 2018-04-04T08:17:01Z phoe: I think I'm about to make the first funcallable-standard-class in my life. 2018-04-04T08:17:08Z LdBeth: And Symbolics was dead 2018-04-04T08:17:33Z loke: blurgh: http://andrejv.github.io/wxmaxima/screenshots.html 2018-04-04T08:17:42Z blurgh: Is that the oldest app still running? That's older than Emacs. O.O 2018-04-04T08:17:43Z LdBeth: phoe: congratulations 2018-04-04T08:17:45Z loke: phoe: For what? 2018-04-04T08:18:02Z loke: blurgh: When it comes to Open Source software, yes. I think it's likely. 2018-04-04T08:18:11Z loke: At least it's up there. 2018-04-04T08:18:29Z loke: There aren't many other software packages that old that are still being maintained and developed. 2018-04-04T08:18:42Z phoe: loke: I basically have a server to which clients can connect, and objects that represent operations that are permitted to be done in my system by clients. 2018-04-04T08:18:44Z verisimilitude: Would it be too forward of me to mention another Lisp community and see if any of you may have used it before? 2018-04-04T08:18:51Z LdBeth: blurgh: we have teco, the earliest editor 2018-04-04T08:19:21Z loke: LdBeth: there is a difference though. Modern versions of TECO are full rewrites. I don't think anyone maintaining the original code base. 2018-04-04T08:19:22Z phoe: They need to have some state, but it also makes sense to me that they're operations, so they should be funcallable on some arguments. 2018-04-04T08:19:31Z phoe: So I thought, hell, why not a funcallable instance. 2018-04-04T08:19:56Z loke: phoe: Congratulations! I've never needed funcallable instances myself :-) 2018-04-04T08:19:58Z blurgh: LdBeth: Have you tried entering your name as a command? 2018-04-04T08:20:18Z loke actually knows a bit of TECO. I also use ITS sometimes. 2018-04-04T08:20:27Z loke: Videoteco on Linux is pretty good actually. 2018-04-04T08:20:35Z LdBeth: blurgh (IRC): ldb is nothing, same to eth 2018-04-04T08:21:06Z blurgh: *: You can still use ITS? Is someone running an instance? 2018-04-04T08:21:15Z loke: blurgh: Sure. its.pdp10.se 2018-04-04T08:21:17Z loke: for example 2018-04-04T08:21:37Z loke: ITS doesn't use passwords, so anyone can log in :-) 2018-04-04T08:22:03Z loke: There are a whole bunch of instances 2018-04-04T08:22:35Z loke: This is a good place to start if you want to follow the work on it: https://github.com/PDP-10/its 2018-04-04T08:22:38Z LdBeth: loke: seems Emacs helm uses a lot of funcallable instances. Btw, I use TOPS-20 on SDF 2018-04-04T08:22:52Z loke: TOPS-20 is really good. 2018-04-04T08:23:04Z phoe: LdBeth: weird, emacs has funcallable instances as well? I didn't know that 2018-04-04T08:23:08Z loke: I use the one at Living computer museum. Feels kinda nice to run it on real hardware. 2018-04-04T08:23:18Z loke: (even though the hardware is half the world away) 2018-04-04T08:24:07Z verisimilitude: Oh well. 2018-04-04T08:24:15Z verisimilitude: Would you go into more detail on this program of yours, phoe? 2018-04-04T08:24:34Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:24:34Z verisimilitude: Is the source available anywhere? 2018-04-04T08:25:14Z blurgh: loke: your first link only displays a picture for me. 2018-04-04T08:25:54Z LdBeth: phoe: Emacs Lisp has several CLOS imitations 2018-04-04T08:25:56Z loke: blurgh: It's the screenshot page for wxmaxima 2018-04-04T08:26:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:26:38Z blurgh: Speaking of old machines, does anyone have documentation for the Lisp Machine file systems and kernels? 2018-04-04T08:26:51Z loke: blurgh: There's stuff on bitsavers 2018-04-04T08:27:22Z loke: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/ 2018-04-04T08:27:23Z blurgh: loke: thanks 2018-04-04T08:27:26Z phoe: loke: an alternative is a standard object that holds some slots, and a method specializing on that object's class. But it's a bit inelegant in my case to have a separate method if I can just invoke that. 2018-04-04T08:27:30Z phoe: blurgh: also https://lm-3.github.io/ 2018-04-04T08:27:40Z phoe: loke: ...invoke that object via funcall. 2018-04-04T08:28:19Z loke: In my experience, I've never seen the case where a funcallable instance did more than I could do with a plain closure. 2018-04-04T08:28:39Z loke: Although, I guess if you need ways to manipulate the closed-over values, it can get a bit ugly with closures. 2018-04-04T08:29:03Z phoe: of course they are equivalent, so it's not a matter of which one can do more 2018-04-04T08:29:07Z loke: blurgh: Us this what you were looking for? 2018-04-04T08:29:08Z loke: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/software/release_6/996055_Reference_Guide_to_Streams_Files_and_IO_Mar85.pdf 2018-04-04T08:31:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:32:06Z verisimilitude: I'm curious as to how old this channel is. 2018-04-04T08:32:48Z blurgh: loke: Maybe. I've heard that Lisp Machines had persistent environments (similar to Smalltalk images) and were interactive throughout. Is there documentation on the design choices for implementing this? Gap buffers and system images like Emacs? 2018-04-04T08:32:54Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:33:08Z ecraven: blurgh: there are various lisp machines available as virtual machines, you can try one of them 2018-04-04T08:33:26Z loke: blurgh: The closest in terms of current code implementing this would be CLIM. 2018-04-04T08:33:26Z phoe: 10:32 -!- Channel #lisp created Sun Aug 3 23:30:32 2003 2018-04-04T08:33:30Z phoe: verisimilitude: ^ 2018-04-04T08:33:36Z ecraven: the Open Genera sources can be found on the web, you can look at the actual source code 2018-04-04T08:33:38Z loke: It's not older than that? 2018-04-04T08:33:52Z phoe: I have no idea how old it is, I only know when it was registered on Freenode 2018-04-04T08:33:58Z blurgh: ecraven: I thought it was still unreleased! I'll go check it out. Thanks. 2018-04-04T08:34:18Z ecraven: blurgh: well, as I said, they can be found... depending on your country, that finding may be legal or illegal 2018-04-04T08:34:26Z ecraven: you might still be able to buy them, too 2018-04-04T08:34:31Z verisimilitude: Alright; it's appreciated, phoe. 2018-04-04T08:34:43Z phoe: verisimilitude: well, it's *at least* this old 2018-04-04T08:34:50Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-04T08:35:08Z blurgh: ecraven: legal in USA? I remember hearing about how someone at MIT said they would release the source code for one of the machines (MIT CADR?) but hadn't followed through at the time of writing. 2018-04-04T08:35:31Z ecraven: blurgh: the mit cadr sources are freely available, as far as I know, but Symbolics' Open Genera sources haven't been open sourced, I think 2018-04-04T08:35:41Z verisimilitude: It's interesting; what other Lisp communities do you all use? 2018-04-04T08:35:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:36:07Z ecraven: blurgh: http://www.unlambda.com/mit/index.html 2018-04-04T08:36:37Z ecraven: I think there is a never version on github somewhere for the emulator 2018-04-04T08:38:07Z blurgh: ecraven: thank you! It looks like there is an MIT CADR repo: https://github.com/hanshuebner/cadr2 2018-04-04T08:38:41Z loke: verisimilitude: There are a bunch of lispers on Mastodon 2018-04-04T08:38:56Z ecraven: blurgh: there should be several ;) 2018-04-04T08:38:57Z LdBeth: The CADR emulator works fine except it has never considered what if the user use a Japanese keyboard layout 2018-04-04T08:39:19Z verisimilitude: That's interesting; I didn't see any Lisp communities when I perused things, but I also didn't look hard. 2018-04-04T08:39:19Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:39:31Z ecraven: see here: https://github.com/lm-3 2018-04-04T08:39:34Z blurgh: err, wrong link. There's several cadr-on-an-fpga projects, but one emulator, here: https://github.com/joshuaeckroth/cadr/tree/master/usim 2018-04-04T08:39:56Z verisimilitude: I've been meaning to setup a GNU Social instance on my server, but Debian issues want a kernel upgrade and it's a mess. 2018-04-04T08:40:00Z LdBeth: Yeah, usim 2018-04-04T08:40:20Z verisimilitude: Now, Mastodon works with some manner of hashtag like grouping, right; is it simply #lisp, then, loke? 2018-04-04T08:40:24Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T08:40:25Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T08:40:46Z phoe: loke: which mastodon instance? 2018-04-04T08:40:54Z loke: verisimilitude: You have to follow the right people. Check the local timelines on functional.cafe and icosahedron.website. Or just search for #lisp 2018-04-04T08:40:54Z LdBeth: With CHAOS support 2018-04-04T08:41:05Z phoe: okay. thanks. 2018-04-04T08:41:24Z verisimilitude: I'll keep that in mind; it's appreciated, loke. 2018-04-04T08:41:31Z loke: phoe: What's your name over there? 2018-04-04T08:41:37Z loke: Am I following you? 2018-04-04T08:41:47Z verisimilitude: Now, what of you in particular; do you use Mastodon for this as well? 2018-04-04T08:41:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:42:00Z loke: what is “this”? 2018-04-04T08:42:22Z verisimilitude: I meant do you use it for Lisp purposes or is it more tangential to what you usually do there. 2018-04-04T08:42:36Z loke: verisimilitude: I'm not sure how to answer that. 2018-04-04T08:42:38Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:42:47Z phoe: loke: none yet, I must register on one of these instances. 2018-04-04T08:42:47Z epony: I find the choice of words community and use together confused. 2018-04-04T08:42:48Z verisimilitude: Alright; I don't mean to pry. 2018-04-04T08:43:07Z LdBeth: https://mastodon.sdf.org/@nydel/99579111283838964 2018-04-04T08:43:16Z LdBeth: Gopher reader 2018-04-04T08:44:01Z loke: verisimilitude: It's not that. I simply don't understand your question. 2018-04-04T08:44:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:44:53Z verisimilitude: I'll rephrase, then. 2018-04-04T08:45:00Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:45:35Z verisimilitude: Do you use Mastodon primarily or often for Lisp discussion or not? 2018-04-04T08:45:46Z verisimilitude: I suppose, in a more general way, I'm asking how the Lisp community there is. 2018-04-04T08:46:21Z loke: verisimilitude: It's a group of peple, all different. Arguably there are more than one community :-) 2018-04-04T08:46:26Z loke: Just follow some peopple and see. 2018-04-04T08:46:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:46:48Z loke: verisimilitude: Mastodon is the onlt “social” media I use with any regularity. 2018-04-04T08:46:58Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:47:10Z loke: I also check G+ once in a while, but the mountain bike community is flooded with spammers at the moment. 2018-04-04T08:47:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:47:46Z loke: phoe: Create an account and follow me: @loke@functional.cafe 2018-04-04T08:49:12Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:49:32Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-04T08:49:48Z shrdlu68: LdBeth: I said "low-level" control of the terminal, i.e buffering, echoing, etc. 2018-04-04T08:50:09Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:50:15Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:51:19Z pyericz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:51:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:52:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:53:08Z amerlyq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T08:53:41Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T08:54:58Z LdBeth: shrdlu68: so ncurse uses syscalls to archive these behaviors... humm 2018-04-04T08:55:06Z shka: hello to all wonderfull people! 2018-04-04T08:55:19Z Shinmera: No hello for me? Rude. 2018-04-04T08:55:22Z verisimilitude: Hello, shka. 2018-04-04T08:55:30Z verisimilitude: Hello, Shinmera. 2018-04-04T08:55:37Z shrdlu68: Hello, fellow human. 2018-04-04T08:56:07Z verisimilitude: My current solution to this, shrdlu68, is to simply call stty in the sh program I use to launch the Common Lisp program. 2018-04-04T08:56:14Z LdBeth: Hemlock 2018-04-04T08:56:25Z shka: Shinmera: and hello Shinmera 2018-04-04T08:56:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:56:54Z verisimilitude: Yes, LdBeth; for a supposedly file-based operating system, UNIX certainly does prefer syscalls passing C structs to files for a great many things. 2018-04-04T08:57:00Z schweers: under which circumstances are calls to BREAK ignored? I am trying to debug a piece of code and can’t get it to enter the debugger anymore. Yesterday it still worked. 2018-04-04T08:57:21Z schweers: it does run in a background thread, but that wasn’t a problem yesterday. I’m using sbcl and slime. any ideas? 2018-04-04T08:57:39Z verisimilitude: Does INVOKE-DEBUGGER work? 2018-04-04T08:57:44Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:57:53Z schweers: Before someone asks: i optimize for debug and safety, both on level 3, nothing else 2018-04-04T08:58:07Z schweers: um. dunno, never used that. let me check 2018-04-04T08:58:28Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T08:58:43Z schweers: I also sometimes have the contrary behaviour: I have a breakpoint somewhere, but the debugger (also) enters at some other time, which I did not intend. 2018-04-04T08:59:10Z verisimilitude: Have you tried other Common Lisp implementations, as well? 2018-04-04T08:59:54Z schweers: not yet, as I cannot use ECL, and CCL does not support single stepping, which is the point of this excersise 2018-04-04T09:00:15Z schweers: INVOKE-DEBUGGER does not seem to be what I want. 2018-04-04T09:00:20Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:00:24Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-04T09:01:39Z verisimilitude: Will you give more context, then? 2018-04-04T09:01:52Z schweers: I’m not sure which context is relevant, that’s my problem 2018-04-04T09:02:06Z verisimilitude: Give all of it, then. 2018-04-04T09:02:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:02:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:02:46Z schweers: I’ve got a piece of code which runs in a separate thread, which I’d like to single-step. Yesterday this worked, but now it just seems to skip the BREAK call :/ 2018-04-04T09:02:49Z verisimilitude: If you don't want to, simply omit date of birth and SSN information; we've trimmed the context already. 2018-04-04T09:03:28Z anaumov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:04:39Z anaumov joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:05:17Z verisimilitude: Well, if it worked yesterday, then what changed since then? 2018-04-04T09:05:27Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:05:29Z schweers: nothing, that’s what I find so weird 2018-04-04T09:05:30Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:05:41Z verisimilitude: Something's obviously changed if it once worked and now doesn't. 2018-04-04T09:05:41Z schweers: well, nothing I can think of. something must have changed 2018-04-04T09:05:43Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:06:05Z verisimilitude: How long is this program running? 2018-04-04T09:06:14Z schweers: not long, at least for small inputs 2018-04-04T09:06:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:06:21Z schweers: why? 2018-04-04T09:06:28Z verisimilitude: Has it been running since you last debugged it? 2018-04-04T09:06:47Z verisimilitude: That is, when it behaved as wanted. 2018-04-04T09:06:51Z schweers: I’ve tried to run/debug it several times 2018-04-04T09:07:16Z verisimilitude: So, how large is this program? 2018-04-04T09:07:16Z schweers: it has not behaved as I’d like since I started working on this new feature in an extra git branch 2018-04-04T09:07:29Z schweers: a few Klines or so 2018-04-04T09:07:56Z verisimilitude: How many lines have been added in this branch that seems suspect? 2018-04-04T09:08:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:08:28Z schweers: not many, 10? 2018-04-04T09:09:36Z verisimilitude: Does it work without those ten? 2018-04-04T09:10:13Z schweers: you mean the program itself, or the breakpoint? 2018-04-04T09:10:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:10:33Z schweers: the program itself works, I might try what happens on the other branch with an added breakpoint 2018-04-04T09:10:43Z verisimilitude: I meant the breakpoint. 2018-04-04T09:11:20Z schweers: works 2018-04-04T09:11:24Z schweers: weird 2018-04-04T09:11:39Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:11:56Z schweers: interesting. I forgot to change the optimization settings on the master branch to debugging. it still entered the debugger 2018-04-04T09:12:24Z verisimilitude: I figured your carefully selected OPTIMIZE settings were being changed somewhere. 2018-04-04T09:12:38Z verisimilitude: So, that solves that, right? 2018-04-04T09:12:53Z schweers: not sure, let me try something 2018-04-04T09:14:16Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:14:53Z schweers: I don’t get it. the debugger works on the master branch, but not on the branch where I need it 2018-04-04T09:15:47Z schweers: I put a (break) call directly into the MAIN function, as the first statement, and I still don’t land in the debugger :/ 2018-04-04T09:16:40Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:18:10Z verisimilitude: What is actually being loaded into the Common Lisp implementation? 2018-04-04T09:19:07Z verisimilitude: Surely, it's a simple matter of locating the offending difference between these two and it doesn't seem like it's a very large difference. 2018-04-04T09:20:01Z schweers: what do you mean? I have a bunch of systems and I load one of them. Now, I found out something new. Because of a bug in one of the changes I made, the code which contained the breakpoint I actually wanted to debug was never called. So that mystery is solved. BUT: the breakpoint directly in the toplevel function I called is still not triggered. 2018-04-04T09:20:10Z LdBeth: I guess cached fasl files causes problems 2018-04-04T09:20:31Z schweers: Also, now that I fixed the aforementioned bug, the breakpoint I was interested in all along enters the debugger. 2018-04-04T09:20:35Z schweers: hm, fasls … 2018-04-04T09:20:39Z schweers: let me try something 2018-04-04T09:21:49Z kammd[m]: Hey guys is there any syslog (log shipper) implemented in lisp?? 2018-04-04T09:23:15Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:23:17Z LdBeth: https://www.cliki.net/logging 2018-04-04T09:23:33Z schweers: I deleted the sbcl directory in ~/.cache and I still have the same situation. While I am happy for the moment, as I can debug the code I am really interested in, I am a little confused that a previous call to BREAK does not enter the debugger, although said code is run in the repl thread and comes earlier (it’t the first thing it should do) 2018-04-04T09:23:42Z verisimilitude: I was also going to mention you should clear caches, schweers. 2018-04-04T09:24:08Z kammd[m]: LdBeth: I am more interested in reading logs and shipping it over to some remote entity.. Like logstash 2018-04-04T09:24:55Z ghard` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T09:25:56Z verisimilitude: This is an interesting excerpt from the HyperSpec: 2018-04-04T09:25:57Z verisimilitude: >The user interface aspects of break and cerror are permitted to vary more widely, in order to accomodate the interface needs of the implementation. For example, it is permissible for a Lisp read-eval-print loop to be entered by break rather than the conventional debugger. 2018-04-04T09:27:02Z verisimilitude: I'm still fuzzy on precisely what the issue could be, schweers, due to insufficient context. 2018-04-04T09:28:38Z schweers: https://pastebin.com/23KaT0Wf 2018-04-04T09:28:42Z schweers: this is my main function 2018-04-04T09:29:13Z LdBeth: kammd: seems you have to assemble a reader, a parser, and a mail program 2018-04-04T09:29:49Z myrkraverk: Is it possible to make a local binding, something like FLET, for a function created by a macro? 2018-04-04T09:30:10Z schweers: the heavy lifting is done in WAYSPLIT, which obviously calls a myriad of other functions. In one of these other functions I have a breakpoint which now works just fine (it was never reached, which was my own fault), but this is not the point. See that the very first expression in MAIN is (BREAK)? that is not triggered when I call MAIN. 2018-04-04T09:30:14Z myrkraverk: That is, when the macro returns a function, can I make it a local binding for the function space? 2018-04-04T09:31:01Z verisimilitude: So, Cloudflare prevents me from viewing this, schweers. 2018-04-04T09:31:13Z schweers: how so? 2018-04-04T09:31:26Z kammd[m]: LdBeth: Yep.. Was wondering if there is any library/tool which does some of that.. Don't want to reinvent the wheel.. 2018-04-04T09:31:39Z verisimilitude: Cloudflare seeks out and blocks several types of VPN and whatnot and pastebin uses Cloudflare. 2018-04-04T09:31:48Z schweers: ugh 2018-04-04T09:32:03Z verisimilitude: Try using this: http://paste.lisp.org/ 2018-04-04T09:32:05Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:32:13Z myrkraverk: I thought paste.lisp.org closed down. 2018-04-04T09:32:15Z schweers: anyway, the function looks like this: (defun main (args) (break) (do-stuff-with args)) 2018-04-04T09:32:20Z verisimilitude: >Due to continued abuse, this service has been disabled 2018-04-04T09:32:22Z verisimilitude: Nevermind. 2018-04-04T09:32:26Z LdBeth sent a long message: LdBeth_2018-04-04_09:32:25.txt 2018-04-04T09:33:12Z verisimilitude: Well, that's certainly queer, schweers. 2018-04-04T09:33:18Z schweers: I call MAIN directly, so I know for a fact that the function is called. It’s in the same file as the other code I was discussing here, i.e. same optimizations. Any ideas why this (break) call does not enter the debugger? 2018-04-04T09:33:38Z verisimilitude: I'd recommend you try to use a different implementation and see how that debugs. 2018-04-04T09:33:41Z schweers: mind you that I don’t need the breakpoint there, I just put it there to see if it would trigger 2018-04-04T09:33:42Z verisimilitude: SBCL sometimes has bugs. 2018-04-04T09:35:17Z verisimilitude: I don't know enough about this particular issue of yours to know if it's a bug, but it's a possibility. 2018-04-04T09:36:05Z LdBeth: kammd: there’s not much wheels 😏 2018-04-04T09:36:28Z myrkraverk: Is there a way to SETF a function, which is created by a macro, to some kind of local (not top-level) binding? 2018-04-04T09:36:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:36:40Z verisimilitude: Give an example of your earlier question, myrkraverk. 2018-04-04T09:36:44Z kammd[m]: LdBeth: heh.. I was afraid of that.. 2018-04-04T09:37:16Z myrkraverk: verisimilitude: to be explicit, I want to bind locally a function (if possible) returned by postmodern:prepare 2018-04-04T09:37:58Z verisimilitude: So, you want something resembling this: 2018-04-04T09:37:58Z verisimilitude: (let (f) (lambda () (setf f (macro)))) 2018-04-04T09:38:40Z myrkraverk: yes. 2018-04-04T09:38:53Z verisimilitude: Well, then do that; I don't see the issue. 2018-04-04T09:39:08Z myrkraverk: the macro returns a function. 2018-04-04T09:39:29Z verisimilitude: For an example of a macro that returns a function, see FORMATTER. 2018-04-04T09:39:58Z verisimilitude: So, simply MACROEXPAND-1 FORMATTER. 2018-04-04T09:40:06Z LdBeth: Macros is expanded before eval 2018-04-04T09:40:32Z LdBeth: So from the point of view of SETF it is just a function 2018-04-04T09:40:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:40:36Z myrkraverk: The function created by the macro has arguments according to $Ns in the statement. 2018-04-04T09:40:41Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:40:52Z nika quit 2018-04-04T09:41:05Z verisimilitude: I'm not seeing the issue, myrkraverk. 2018-04-04T09:43:57Z LdBeth: Like Clojure’s anonymous function? 2018-04-04T09:44:36Z verisimilitude: Well, it's been fun; I'll probably return at some point. 2018-04-04T09:44:39Z verisimilitude left #lisp 2018-04-04T09:44:39Z myrkraverk: Ok, so here's what I have currently. 2018-04-04T09:44:56Z LdBeth: Me neither 2018-04-04T09:46:02Z myrkraverk: (let ((foo (prepare "select $1::text"))) (format t "~a" (funcall foo "Hello, Postgres"))) 2018-04-04T09:46:51Z myrkraverk: Is what I have right now; since (prepare...) returns a function that takes indeterminate number of arguments, I don't know how to avoid the funcall, which I personally find ugly. 2018-04-04T09:47:02Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:48:23Z myrkraverk: As in, in the general case; just wrapping it isn't what I wanted originally. 2018-04-04T09:48:37Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-04T09:48:45Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T09:54:08Z LdBeth: myrkraverk: I would rewrite prepare to allow ignoring arguments 2018-04-04T09:57:48Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T10:00:52Z phoe: myrkraverk: I use CL-YESQL that automatically turns SQL queries into CL functions. 2018-04-04T10:01:15Z phoe: https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-yesql Somewhat tricky to get it to run at first but fun and working. 2018-04-04T10:02:22Z myrkraverk: phoe: I'm quite happy with postmodern for the most part; it's only this slight "blight" when I don't want global functions that bother me. 2018-04-04T10:04:13Z phoe: myrkraverk: I remember there was a construct that allowed to lexically bind an anonymous function to a function name 2018-04-04T10:04:49Z phoe: YES 2018-04-04T10:04:50Z loke: phoe: (labels ((foo () (funcall fn))) ...) 2018-04-04T10:04:53Z phoe: serapeum:fbind 2018-04-04T10:05:28Z flip214: also, there's the (:select ...) syntax that would allow to fetch the number of parameters... 2018-04-04T10:05:36Z phoe: (fbind ((my-fn (prepare "select $1::text"))) (format t "~a" (my-fn))) 2018-04-04T10:05:44Z phoe: myrkraverk: this avoids an explicit funcall. 2018-04-04T10:06:19Z loke: phoe: doesn't FBIND expand into something similar to what I did? 2018-04-04T10:06:35Z cromachina_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T10:06:57Z phoe: loke: not really. I remember that FBIND is much more complicated than that. 2018-04-04T10:06:58Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2018-04-04T10:06:59Z phoe: see https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/5917e581ca81eb88f1f1194cf4f122122b3bf211/fbind.lisp#L305 2018-04-04T10:07:16Z loke: phoe: Yes. I'm looking at it. 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-04T12:19:35Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T12:20:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T12:21:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:21:27Z kori quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2018-04-04T12:22:03Z kori joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:22:17Z kori quit (Changing host) 2018-04-04T12:22:17Z kori joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:26:48Z phoe: beach: Have you thought about protocols in case of funcallable instances? 2018-04-04T12:28:18Z phoe: Because suddenly the object itself is funcallable, which does not fully fit in the definition of protocol described as a set of generic functions and protocol classes. 2018-04-04T12:28:38Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:28:51Z Bicyclidine: mop generic-function 2018-04-04T12:28:51Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-generic-function.html 2018-04-04T12:29:25Z Bicyclidine: don't the generic-function-foo functions constitute a protocol? 2018-04-04T12:29:38Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-04T12:31:03Z phoe: yep, they do, but I don't mean a protocol for handling generic functions 2018-04-04T12:31:23Z phoe: I mean a protocol where funcallable objects which are not GFs are a part of that protocol 2018-04-04T12:31:38Z phoe: I just realized I'm speaking of a terribly unspecific thing; I'll try to make it more concrete and then post back 2018-04-04T12:31:40Z Bicyclidine: i mean, it's a protocol where funcallable objects are important. 2018-04-04T12:31:57Z Bicyclidine: it even has classes you don't instantiate, like generic-function. 2018-04-04T12:32:11Z phoe: hm 2018-04-04T12:32:14Z phoe: yes, I'll read into that. 2018-04-04T12:33:34Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:33:35Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T12:35:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T12:35:44Z Shinmera: b 2018-04-04T12:40:21Z phoe: b? 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2018-04-04T13:06:01Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:06:23Z jackdaniel: not subclass 2018-04-04T13:06:28Z jackdaniel: you should make it a metaclass 2018-04-04T13:07:02Z jackdaniel: like this: (defclass fclass () (:metaclass funcallable-standard-class)) 2018-04-04T13:08:29Z phoe: so (defclass foo (funcallable-standard-object) ()) will not do what I want, will it? 2018-04-04T13:09:15Z Bike: no. having a function slot can be controlled by allocate-instance, which is specialized to do so with funcallable-standard-class. 2018-04-04T13:09:20Z sendai___ is now known as azimut 2018-04-04T13:10:37Z phoe: so (defclass foo (funcallable-standard-object) () (:metaclass funcallable-standard-class)) it is 2018-04-04T13:11:23Z Bike: i think with that metaclass the funcallable-standard-object is implied. 2018-04-04T13:13:36Z phoe: yep, you are correct. 2018-04-04T13:22:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:25:08Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T13:25:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:28:50Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:32:13Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:34:39Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:37:08Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:41:02Z pagnol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T13:46:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:48:25Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-04T13:48:59Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T13:51:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:52:12Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:55:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T13:56:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T13:56:55Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T13:58:13Z beach: phoe: I haven't really thought about it, but my initial reaction is that there is nothing special here. 2018-04-04T13:58:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:00:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:01:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:02:14Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:06:17Z copec_ quit (Quit: checkity check out.) 2018-04-04T14:07:19Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:08:01Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:09:18Z copec joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:09:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:10:27Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:11:15Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:11:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:13:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:13:43Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:13:49Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:14:21Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:14:48Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:16:57Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:17:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:19:41Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-04T14:20:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:21:57Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:22:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:25:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:27:00Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:29:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:30:07Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T14:30:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:31:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:33:40Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:35:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:35:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T14:36:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T14:36:54Z rumbler31: will ELS talks be recorded this year? 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2018-04-04T15:54:46Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T15:55:11Z beach: shangul: Most people here recommend PCL. 2018-04-04T15:55:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-04T15:55:55Z shangul: beach, for someone like I said? 2018-04-04T15:56:12Z beach: "Practical Common Lisp" by Peter Seibel. 2018-04-04T15:56:18Z beach: Yes, for your situation. 2018-04-04T15:57:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T15:57:21Z beach: It is also important that you consult with #lisp participants before you attempt to decide on an implementation, and editor, etc. 2018-04-04T15:57:49Z beach: A lot depends on what you already know, what OS you are on, what you are willing to learn, etc. 2018-04-04T15:58:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T15:58:43Z pierpa: and what style you can bear 2018-04-04T15:59:11Z beach: pierpa: What style are you referring to? 2018-04-04T15:59:20Z Shinmera: A good starting point though is https://portacle.github.io 2018-04-04T15:59:32Z Shinmera: For an environment to use, that is 2018-04-04T15:59:47Z pierpa: I find PCL's style too condescending for my taste 2018-04-04T16:00:09Z beach: pierpa: Did you read it when you had no Common Lisp experience? 2018-04-04T16:00:17Z jcowan 's reader skipped over "OS" and read "what you are on" 2018-04-04T16:00:19Z pierpa: No 2018-04-04T16:00:38Z omilu_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T16:00:54Z jcowan: I wanted to get permission to rewrite it as Practical ISLisp, but apparently the rights are very tangled. 2018-04-04T16:00:56Z pierpa: It came some 20 or 30 years too late for that :) 2018-04-04T16:01:22Z Shinmera: PCL, condescending? really? 2018-04-04T16:01:25Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:01:49Z mangul joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:01:50Z jcowan: eventually I should get back to my ISLisp effort 2018-04-04T16:02:01Z shangul quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-04T16:02:02Z pierpa: Unknown a lot of people likes it. That's just my taste. 2018-04-04T16:02:13Z pierpa: *I know 2018-04-04T16:02:25Z mangul is now known as shangul 2018-04-04T16:02:35Z Shinmera: I don't care whether you like it or not, I'm debating your assertion that it is condescending. 2018-04-04T16:03:05Z jcowan: I don't see how that can be usefully argued when it depends on perspective. One person's condescension is another person's welcomed handholding. 2018-04-04T16:03:06Z Shinmera: Or questioning, rather. 2018-04-04T16:04:03Z beach: Also, pierpa was in a very different situation when he read it, compared to that of shangul. 2018-04-04T16:04:05Z shangul: beach, decide on an implementation?going with something other than common lisp? 2018-04-04T16:04:19Z beach: shangul: Common Lisp is a language with many implementations. 2018-04-04T16:04:28Z ldb: i use clozure cl on mac 2018-04-04T16:04:39Z shangul: I thought Common Lisp is a Lisp implementation. 2018-04-04T16:04:44Z beach: It is not. 2018-04-04T16:04:45Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T16:04:47Z beach: It is a standard. 2018-04-04T16:05:01Z jcowan: beach: I have tried to build the papers in the SICL tree, but some have no Makefiles, some don't build, and some build but don't produce the whole paper 2018-04-04T16:05:15Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T16:05:16Z jcowan: I see from your links that some are on metamodules, but there seems to be no index of them 2018-04-04T16:05:27Z shangul: beach, the book(PCL) probably has picked one up. someone could go with that. 2018-04-04T16:05:29Z beach: shangul: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so that's the only language you will see discussed, but there are at least 3 reasonable general-purpose implementations, and a few more for special situations. 2018-04-04T16:05:47Z beach: shangul: It pretty much follows the standard. 2018-04-04T16:05:47Z jcowan: or rather there is an index, but it does not include either the LispOS or first-class environments papers 2018-04-04T16:06:17Z shangul: beach, And about editor, someone could pick what they are already good with it. 2018-04-04T16:06:47Z beach: shangul: That might not be a good idea for Common Lisp. Depending on what you are good at of course. 2018-04-04T16:07:10Z beach: jcowan: OK, let me check... 2018-04-04T16:07:16Z shangul: beach, I think you should explain these more to me. 2018-04-04T16:07:18Z ldb: and you don't necessarily need emacs 2018-04-04T16:07:30Z beach: shangul: Anyone here can explain it. 2018-04-04T16:07:35Z jcowan is insane enough to edit Lisp with "ex" 2018-04-04T16:07:49Z beach: shangul: Emacs with SLIME is probably the best environment for editing Common Lisp code. 2018-04-04T16:07:51Z ldb is a TECO user 2018-04-04T16:08:04Z jcowan: Coolness 2018-04-04T16:08:11Z jcowan was a Teco user but not lately 2018-04-04T16:08:31Z beach: shangul: If you use something else, you are not only depriving yourself of some important functionality, but are also likely to submit code that does not follow widely accepted conventions. 2018-04-04T16:08:47Z beach: shangul: And that is not polite to the people you are asking for help. 2018-04-04T16:08:57Z beach: shangul: So they are likely not to be polite back. 2018-04-04T16:09:15Z shangul: beach, are you talking about code's cleanness? 2018-04-04T16:09:29Z jcowan: Emacs sets the standard for "readable Lisp code" 2018-04-04T16:09:35Z beach: shangul: To begin with, simple things like indentation and spacing. 2018-04-04T16:09:38Z jcowan: or rather, its standard formatter does 2018-04-04T16:09:49Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:09:51Z beach: shangul: corresponding to typographical conventions in a natural language. 2018-04-04T16:10:20Z shangul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T16:10:30Z beach: shangul: Idiomatic code is at a higher level. 2018-04-04T16:10:51Z ldb: jcowan: emacs doesnt work well with heavy dispatch characters 2018-04-04T16:11:01Z jcowan nods 2018-04-04T16:11:17Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:11:18Z jcowan: IIRC it also has problems with vertical-barred symbols that contain spaces 2018-04-04T16:12:05Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:12:17Z beach: jcowan: The Bootstrapping paper is embryonic, but it has a Makefile and it builds for me. 2018-04-04T16:12:21Z beach: I am doing one at a time here. 2018-04-04T16:13:32Z krasnal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:14:04Z beach: ELS is not really a paper. It seems to be some kind of presentation, but it is probably not important. 2018-04-04T16:14:44Z beach: Control-flow is not yet a paper. I'll get back to you when it becomes one. 2018-04-04T16:14:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:15:05Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T16:15:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:15:46Z beach: Environment-info is embryonic. You don't have to worry about it at this point. 2018-04-04T16:16:28Z beach: Generic-dispatch builds here. 2018-04-04T16:17:02Z beach: Global-environments builds here. 2018-04-04T16:17:25Z beach: LOOP build here. 2018-04-04T16:18:22Z jcowan: trying those three 2018-04-04T16:18:41Z beach: Merge-sort is embryonic. We don't have the research results yet. You can safely forget about it. 2018-04-04T16:19:33Z beach: Partial-inlining builds here. 2018-04-04T16:19:45Z jcowan: Are you familiar with Shivers's algo for mergesorting lists in constant space? It has problems when the implementation has a write barrier, as you might expect, but is very interesting 2018-04-04T16:20:12Z beach: Merge sort on a list is trivial. 2018-04-04T16:20:24Z beach: ... with constant additional space. 2018-04-04T16:20:33Z beach: Merge sort on a vector is way trickier. 2018-04-04T16:21:00Z beach: My research is about vectors. 2018-04-04T16:21:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:21:23Z beach: Reverse-order builds here. 2018-04-04T16:22:06Z beach: Rewrite builds here. 2018-04-04T16:22:29Z beach: Satiation builds here. 2018-04-04T16:22:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:23:17Z beach: Sequence-functions does not build. 2018-04-04T16:23:41Z Xach: beachbuildbot 2018-04-04T16:23:47Z jcowan chuckles 2018-04-04T16:24:13Z jcowan: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-32/blob/master/sort-ref-impl/lmsort.scm <-- Shivers's algorithm (should be readable even without knowing Scheme) 2018-04-04T16:24:24Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:24:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:24:59Z beach: jcowan: I can ask my favorite coauthor to do the commits so that it builds, but it won't be today. 2018-04-04T16:25:19Z jcowan: Thanks 2018-04-04T16:25:33Z beach: Sliding-GC builds. 2018-04-04T16:25:39Z jcowan: I wouldn't call the above trivial 2018-04-04T16:26:20Z verisimilitude: On the topic of how Emacs formats Common Lisp, I'm disappointed with how LOOP is done; I always manually format it. 2018-04-04T16:26:32Z verisimilitude: What do you think? 2018-04-04T16:26:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:26:47Z Bike: there's a slime contrib that indents it differently 2018-04-04T16:26:50Z dlowe: I've changed the way I break up loop statements to look pretty on emacs 2018-04-04T16:26:54Z beach: verisimilitude: That's because you are not using the slime-indentation contributation. 2018-04-04T16:27:05Z jcowan: beach: Obviously I gave up prematurely 2018-04-04T16:27:31Z beach: Type-inference builds. 2018-04-04T16:27:40Z beach: I believe that's all of them. 2018-04-04T16:27:41Z verisimilitude: I'll look into that, beach; it's appreciated. 2018-04-04T16:27:51Z beach: verisimilitude: Anytime. 2018-04-04T16:28:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:28:49Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:28:53Z eponym quit (Quit: QUIT) 2018-04-04T16:29:07Z beach: jcowan: He is optimizing by not breaking runs of ordered objects. 2018-04-04T16:29:22Z beach: jcowan: But that optimization is not necessary for it to be constant space. 2018-04-04T16:29:22Z jcowan: Indeed 2018-04-04T16:31:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:31:42Z beach: Again, my research is about using merge sort on vectors. There are algorithms that use constant space already, but the overhead is often great. 2018-04-04T16:32:14Z verisimilitude: On that further topic of looping forms, which do you find yourself using often? ITERATE is nice, but its being a library makes it much less usable in many instances. LOOP is often most brief if you can fit your loop perfectly to it. I find myself using PROG and PROG* for many loops with complex control flow needs, but also with very simple loops that aren't perfectly expressed with the other macros. 2018-04-04T16:32:41Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:33:22Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:33:23Z beach: jcowan: The point of the research is similar to that of the Reverse-order paper. Check how much stack is available, and use a big chunk of it. That way you avoid the overhead. If little stack is available (which almost never happens), then use the high-overhead constant-space algorithm published in the literature. 2018-04-04T16:34:26Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:34:56Z jdz joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:35:17Z beach: verisimilitude: I use LOOP a lot. It is very rare that I have such a complex control flow that LOOP can not express it. In fact, even control flow that LOOP can express perfectly well can be too complex for the maintainer. 2018-04-04T16:35:47Z beach: verisimilitude: For the others (typically state machines) I use TAGBODY. 2018-04-04T16:35:59Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:36:22Z jcowan: Is the high-overhead constant-space algo you mention stable, and if so, is it natural? 2018-04-04T16:36:33Z LdBeth: verisimilitude: (loop (throw)) 2018-04-04T16:36:39Z pierpa: ITERATE is nice, and if you want to maintain readability for LOOPers you can restrict yourself to the common subset 2018-04-04T16:37:04Z beach: jcowan: There are both stable and non stable algorithms in the literature. I don't know what "natural" means in the context of an algorithm. 2018-04-04T16:37:22Z beach: I mean, algorithms are made by people who are part of nature, so in that sense they are natural. 2018-04-04T16:37:24Z jcowan: exploits existing ordering, in the manner of Shivers's algorithm 2018-04-04T16:37:38Z sjl: verisimilitude: I use LOOP in my libraries to avoid forcing another dependency on users, but ITERATE in my own personal code 2018-04-04T16:37:39Z jcowan: which is O(n) when the input is already sorted 2018-04-04T16:37:43Z beach: But some people remove people from their concept of "nature" and then no algorithm is found in nature. 2018-04-04T16:38:12Z verisimilitude: Another reason I'd use PROG or PROG* over LOOP is to avoid needing to deal with the formatting issues or precede any Lisp with DO, so I'd call that a further advantage. 2018-04-04T16:38:33Z beach: jcowan: I don't remember. I think getting constant space is probably hard enough as it is. 2018-04-04T16:38:46Z verisimilitude: What about the algorithms animals use, beach? 2018-04-04T16:39:24Z beach: verisimilitude: I think that is off topic. 2018-04-04T16:39:49Z verisimilitude: Well, alright. 2018-04-04T16:40:01Z pierpa: jcowan: I have seen that property called "smoothness" 2018-04-04T16:40:03Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:40:08Z LdBeth: The normal distribution of random typing 2018-04-04T16:40:15Z verisimilitude: I'd simply argue that algorithms are everywhere in nature, but I can see how that would diverge too much. 2018-04-04T16:40:19Z jcowan: beach: AYC can you send me a pointer to a stable constant space vector merge sort, either code or description? 2018-04-04T16:41:05Z beach: jcowan: You are asking a lot, especially since dinner is minutes away. I'll do my best, but you may have to remind me. 2018-04-04T16:41:19Z jcowan: AYC = at your convenience 2018-04-04T16:42:14Z jcowan: I will try and remind you 2018-04-04T16:42:22Z beach: jcowan: Fast Stable Merging and Sorting in Constant Extra Space. 2018-04-04T16:42:37Z beach: jcowan: Bin-chao Huang and Michael A Langston. 2018-04-04T16:42:37Z jcowan: ta 2018-04-04T16:42:58Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:43:05Z pankracy_ is now known as pankracy 2018-04-04T16:43:11Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:43:13Z pankracy quit (Changing host) 2018-04-04T16:43:13Z pankracy joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:43:13Z beach: 24 pages. 2018-04-04T16:43:33Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:43:36Z jcowan fetches it with thanks to seagoing individuals everywhere 2018-04-04T16:43:39Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:45:02Z jcowan: failed, but found elsewhere 2018-04-04T16:47:23Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T16:48:15Z beach: jcowan: If you continue with this level of intellectual curiosity, you might even want to contribute to SICL one day. :) 2018-04-04T16:48:44Z jcowan is a busy, busy bee these days 2018-04-04T16:48:53Z jcowan: f/t industrial job, Scheme cat-herder 2018-04-04T16:48:58Z sellout- joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:49:05Z jcowan: But I always have time to learn new things 2018-04-04T16:49:06Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T16:49:16Z jcowan: if nothing else, while commuting 2018-04-04T16:49:22Z beach: Heh. 2018-04-04T16:49:32Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:49:36Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:49:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:53:18Z verisimilitude: I'm curious if any of you discuss Lisp on imageboards, as there's one area in particular I believe some of you may find interesting. 2018-04-04T16:53:18Z verisimilitude: https://www.lainchan.org/%CE%BB/res/4793.html 2018-04-04T16:54:36Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:54:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T16:55:21Z segmond joined #lisp 2018-04-04T16:55:26Z ldb: SICP, Industial Common Lisp and purity in Scheme 2018-04-04T16:55:49Z jcowan: Purity of what? 2018-04-04T16:56:14Z ldb: of the S stared word 2018-04-04T16:57:12Z ldb: actually neither Scheme nor CL can be considered as "Pure" in my mind 2018-04-04T16:57:41Z fourier: pure only haskell and io and the family ? 2018-04-04T16:58:32Z fourier: and "Pure" language itself ofc 2018-04-04T16:58:52Z ldb: the only and true purity is not in haskell my friend but in data flow languages 2018-04-04T16:59:02Z jcowan: "Pure" is not pure 2018-04-04T16:59:25Z jcowan: nevertheless I love it; it is ML on the outside, Lisp on the inside 2018-04-04T17:00:12Z jcowan: ldb: FBP ftw 2018-04-04T17:00:20Z dlowe: yawn. purity isn't a worthwhile goal. it's a butterfly to amuse the idle. 2018-04-04T17:00:28Z fourier: ha indeed pure is not pure, i can see it now :) confused with Clear 2018-04-04T17:00:58Z fourier: *Clean 2018-04-04T17:00:59Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:01:16Z jcowan: Pure purity is not a good thing, but mostly purity is, I think 2018-04-04T17:01:17Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:01:24Z jcowan: how many people actually exploit the mutability of conses? 2018-04-04T17:01:37Z jcowan: Oh, Clean 2018-04-04T17:01:38Z ldb: i guess it is a pun 2018-04-04T17:01:42Z jcowan: I should learn about that some time 2018-04-04T17:01:57Z jcowan: "Pure" is like "SICL" 2018-04-04T17:02:06Z jcowan: not the name of anything else, sounds good, meaning irrelevant/unknown 2018-04-04T17:03:50Z jcowan: pervasive laziness is unmitigatedly a bad thing (as opposed to facultative laziness which is sometimes useful) 2018-04-04T17:03:58Z jcowan: Haskell is lazy only to force it to be pure 2018-04-04T17:04:17Z Bike: mutating conses isn't rare. messing with alists and such 2018-04-04T17:04:34Z verisimilitude: I agree, dlowe. 2018-04-04T17:04:55Z jcowan: Eh? The whole point of alists IMO is that you can push and pop things off them, which only works if they are pure. Plists are another matter. 2018-04-04T17:05:00Z verisimilitude: I use RPLACA and RPLACD a decent amount, jcowan. 2018-04-04T17:05:05Z jcowan: eek 2018-04-04T17:05:45Z Bike: i mean, in theory, yeah, but sometimes you have an alist where you know a key is there, like a cheap structure kind of deal 2018-04-04T17:06:02Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-04T17:06:21Z jcowan: Sounds more expensive than an actual structure, but I see your point 2018-04-04T17:06:33Z jcowan: Racket switched to pervasive immutable conses and almost nobody noticed 2018-04-04T17:06:46Z ldb: jcowan: the first time i do prog i used a list to store data in emacs lisp and get f**ked by mutating conses 2018-04-04T17:06:48Z jcowan: (in the sense of "code broke" as opposed to "people made a fuss" 2018-04-04T17:06:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T17:06:55Z jcowan: ) 2018-04-04T17:06:59Z verisimilitude: You should look at the source to ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL as an example. To explain, I use the SGR, SELECT GRAPHIC REPERTOIRE, control function to change colors; this is a variadic control function and I express this in Common Lisp by requiring a list as the parameter; I didn't want to allocate a new list every time the relevant functions are called, so I have a CONS cell bound that I use RPLACA with to recycle whenever necessary. 2018-04-04T17:06:59Z dlowe: 99% of the time, when I start by using nested generic sequences, I eventually end up converting it all to structures. 2018-04-04T17:07:41Z jcowan: One advantage of immutable pairs is that rest-lists need not be copied, nor do you need to do data flow analysis to make sure they are not mutated 2018-04-04T17:07:56Z jcowan: Rest-lists are the only point (in Scheme at least) at which the PL touches the data structures 2018-04-04T17:08:40Z jcowan: Despite this, we felt they were way too revolutionary for R7RS 2018-04-04T17:09:05Z isoraqathedh_ is now known as isoraqathedh 2018-04-04T17:09:29Z ldb: dlowe: in my opinion structs and arrays should be always choosed over lists 2018-04-04T17:09:30Z Bike: CL rest lists are already unmodifiable, it's just not enforced strictly 2018-04-04T17:09:35Z Bike: immutable conses would definitely be nice to have 2018-04-04T17:09:51Z jcowan: R7RS-large does have them with a complete parallel library 2018-04-04T17:11:00Z jcowan: parallel to the mutable-list lib, I mean, not parallel in the sense of parallel computing 2018-04-04T17:11:09Z jcowan: we also have random-access lists 2018-04-04T17:11:29Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:12:29Z knicklux joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:12:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:13:16Z ldb hates trees 2018-04-04T17:14:23Z verisimilitude: That's not strictly true, Bike. 2018-04-04T17:14:48Z verisimilitude: With my understanding of the way the standard is written, you can modify rest lists, but only do so well if you make certain to never do this with APPLY. 2018-04-04T17:15:46Z verisimilitude: Even then, it seems like you could do even that, so long as you don't use a constant as the rest list. 2018-04-04T17:16:11Z Bike: "constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be freshly consed, nor modify that list structure" says apply 2018-04-04T17:17:13Z Bike: a few years ago i spent time implementing a scheme like language with immutable conses 2018-04-04T17:17:31Z Bike: handled circularity very well also, which was annoying to do and mostly pointless 2018-04-04T17:17:46Z verisimilitude: The beginning of that sentence is important. 2018-04-04T17:17:49Z verisimilitude: >Because a function can neither detect whether it was called via apply nor whether (if so) the last argument to apply was a constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be freshly consed, nor modify that list structure. 2018-04-04T17:17:51Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:18:28Z verisimilitude: So, it seems fair game to modify the rest list, so long as it's not a constant and it doesn't need to be freshly consed. 2018-04-04T17:18:29Z Bike: i don't think it's relevant 2018-04-04T17:18:52Z Bike: i think if an implementation did whatever with rest lists and a user modified one and didn't get what they expected and complained, the implementors probably wouldn't care 2018-04-04T17:20:28Z verisimilitude: Well, they'd be within their rights to not care. 2018-04-04T17:20:44Z verisimilitude: If it pertained to this, anyway. 2018-04-04T17:20:51Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-04T17:21:29Z verisimilitude: In practicality, constant modification is usually permitted and lists are probably simply usually freshly consed. 2018-04-04T17:21:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:21:47Z TMA: verisimilitude: the whole sentence does not permit conforming programs to modify or expect freshness, there is no exceptions for programs that can provably avoid the APPLY 2018-04-04T17:22:20Z verisimilitude: It's the ``because'' that makes me believe this, TMA. 2018-04-04T17:23:15Z glv joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:23:17Z TMA: verisimilitude: the emptines of the latter notwithstanding. an implementation is permitted to use APPLY during evaluation of all function calls 2018-04-04T17:23:24Z verisimilitude: It seems clear to me that it's saying that, since APPLY can recycle the rest list, it can't be expected to be freshly consed and, in addition to this, it's possible a constant may be used in this way, and so only because of this should it not be done. 2018-04-04T17:23:58Z verisimilitude: So, it seems to me that it simply derives from the constant modification rules. 2018-04-04T17:24:18Z TMA: verisimilitude: the 'because' is just a supporting argument in that case. it does not limit the prohibition in any way 2018-04-04T17:24:39Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-04T17:25:28Z verisimilitude: I can also see that reading of it, yes. 2018-04-04T17:26:01Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:26:02Z verisimilitude: I suppose, either way, it's splitting hairs, as an implementation is likely to only ever try to detect this statically and not care, otherwise. 2018-04-04T17:26:21Z verisimilitude: Regardless, it's somewhat interesting. 2018-04-04T17:30:01Z TMA: verisimilitude: the other part is that if your interpretation of the standard were true, then adding (apply #'foo '(1 2 3)) to your *conforming program would render it nonconforming. It seems absurd that this is the intended reading. This could make any program with (APPLY ... constant) nonconforming. 2018-04-04T17:30:23Z rumble joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:30:38Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-04T17:30:44Z grumble quit (Killed (kornbluth.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2018-04-04T17:30:44Z rumble is now known as grumble 2018-04-04T17:31:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:31:24Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:31:28Z verisimilitude: That would only be the case if FOO modified its rest list, TMA. 2018-04-04T17:33:07Z jackdaniel this that this interpretation simply doesn't hold and there is no point in arguing for it 2018-04-04T17:33:17Z jackdaniel: (but has better things to do than fight for it) 2018-04-04T17:33:47Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:33:56Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:34:03Z jackdaniel: thinks* 2018-04-04T17:35:47Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:37:30Z verisimilitude: Well, alright. I thought it was a fun discussion, either way. 2018-04-04T17:39:10Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:40:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T17:41:12Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:41:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:43:03Z ghard``` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:43:10Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:44:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:45:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:45:47Z drmeister: Hey - any vlime users online at the moment? 2018-04-04T17:46:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:46:15Z drmeister: I'm trying to get it up and running. I have a server running and I'm trying to get vim to connect to it. 2018-04-04T17:46:26Z drmeister: vlime is installed (apparently correctly) in my vim. 2018-04-04T17:46:46Z drmeister: Typing \cc within vim generates an error message 2018-04-04T17:47:23Z sjl: drmeister: what message? 2018-04-04T17:47:28Z sjl: (I use vlime) 2018-04-04T17:47:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T17:48:01Z drmeister: Hitting \ makes my vim say "doot" (error) 2018-04-04T17:48:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:48:14Z drmeister: I'm editing a .lisp file 2018-04-04T17:48:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:48:40Z drmeister: Are there any tests you recommend to see if things are configured properly? 2018-04-04T17:49:01Z sjl: drmeister: what does `:let maplocalleader` say? 2018-04-04T17:49:47Z sjl: I think all the Vlime shortcuts are prefixed with localleader, which most people have set as \ these days, but I don't know what the default actually is 2018-04-04T17:49:47Z drmeister: sbcl is saying: vlime-usocket - Server created: (#(127 0 0 1) 7002 2018-04-04T17:49:49Z drmeister: E121: Undefined variable: maplocalleader 2018-04-04T17:49:51Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:50:09Z sjl: try putting `let maplocalleader = "\\"` in your vimrc 2018-04-04T17:50:44Z jackdaniel: I see vim is as much fun as emacs 2018-04-04T17:51:29Z drmeister: sjl: Thank you for your time. I added that to .vimrc and restarted vim - no errors 2018-04-04T17:51:38Z drmeister: Now: :let maplocalleader --> \ 2018-04-04T17:51:43Z sjl: yeah 2018-04-04T17:51:51Z sjl: are you familiar with leader and localleader? 2018-04-04T17:52:03Z drmeister: Hitting \ still makes vim say *boop* through the speaker. 2018-04-04T17:52:14Z sjl: Hrm 2018-04-04T17:52:28Z sjl: Just the \ on its own? or \cc? 2018-04-04T17:52:38Z drmeister: Just the \ on its own. 2018-04-04T17:52:53Z drmeister: \cc makes it delete the current line and puts it into insert mode. 2018-04-04T17:53:00Z drmeister: Not what I think it should be doing. 2018-04-04T17:53:03Z sjl: huh, that's odd. 2018-04-04T17:53:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:53:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T17:53:25Z sjl: Well, if it's not mapped that's what it should be doing (\ -> unmapped, beeps, cc-> change current line) 2018-04-04T17:53:27Z drmeister: Yeah - definitely using :let maplocalleader I get... 2018-04-04T17:53:28Z drmeister: maplocalleader \ 2018-04-04T17:53:34Z sjl: But Vlime should be mapping these keys in .lisp files 2018-04-04T17:54:01Z drmeister: I understand - something is not right. 2018-04-04T17:54:17Z sjl: You're saying it beeps/deletes in .lisp files, right? Vlime only maps in .lisp files 2018-04-04T17:55:27Z drmeister: I tried changing the localleader to _ (underscore) - and restarting - same behavior although no *bloop* but _cc puts it into change current line mode. 2018-04-04T17:55:42Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm editing a .lisp file. 2018-04-04T17:55:55Z drmeister: I'm starting vim with: vim test.lisp 2018-04-04T17:56:12Z drmeister: Here's my .vimrc 2018-04-04T17:56:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/K4M4pw19/ 2018-04-04T17:56:56Z drmeister: When installing vim Plugin support I left out a lot of lines that I thought were just plugins. 2018-04-04T17:57:18Z drmeister: Where should the l04m33/vlime be on my hard drive? 2018-04-04T17:57:36Z sjl: Hm, I don't use Vundle myself, so I'm not sure exactly how Vundle would be installing Vlime for you 2018-04-04T17:57:43Z drmeister: Because I probably don't have it installed in the right place - it's currently in /Users/meister/Development/vlime 2018-04-04T17:57:54Z drmeister: There's no way it is going to find it. 2018-04-04T17:58:06Z sjl: you ran :PluginInstall in Vim? 2018-04-04T17:58:15Z drmeister: Well, I was told to add: Plugin 'l04m33/vlime', {'rtp': 'vim/'} to the .vimrc 2018-04-04T17:58:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T17:58:28Z sjl: https://github.com/l04m33/vlime/#quickstart 2018-04-04T17:58:36Z sjl: > 1. Add Plugin 'l04m33/vlime', {'rtp': 'vim/'} to your vimrc, then run :PluginInstall in Vim. 2018-04-04T17:58:37Z drmeister: I just assumed I needed Vundle - I haven't done plugins with vim. 2018-04-04T17:58:51Z drmeister: I haven't used vim in 6 years (but did for 20 years prior to that). 2018-04-04T17:59:31Z drmeister: Yeah - but what does 'l04m33/vlime' mean? That looks like a relative path - but relative to what? 2018-04-04T17:59:45Z drmeister: Is there a vim plugins directory? 2018-04-04T18:00:00Z sjl: drmeister: I assume that's the github user/repo which Vundle will clone down for you 2018-04-04T18:00:26Z drmeister: Yeah - but where is it supposed to go? I'm going to put it in ~/.vim/bundle for yucks 2018-04-04T18:00:29Z sjl: Like I said, I don't use Vundle. I know Vlime works great with Pathogen and I prefer installing plugins like that 2018-04-04T18:00:41Z drmeister: Pathogen? 2018-04-04T18:00:59Z sjl: let me PM you, this is veering more into Vim territory than #lisp 2018-04-04T18:01:03Z semz joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:01:27Z drmeister: Thank you 2018-04-04T18:02:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:06:46Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:08:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:09:10Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-04T18:09:32Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T18:11:51Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:13:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:15:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:16:52Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:18:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:23:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:23:38Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:23:52Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T18:28:11Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:28:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:31:33Z jcowan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T18:31:52Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:32:50Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T18:32:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:38:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:39:01Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-04T18:41:29Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2018-04-04T18:42:56Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:43:19Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T18:43:38Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:43:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:49:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:52:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:52:57Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:53:09Z Younder joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:54:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T18:56:01Z jeosol: morning guys 2018-04-04T18:56:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-04T18:57:10Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:59:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T18:59:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:00:29Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T19:01:03Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:03:45Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:04:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:05:33Z makomo: evening :-) 2018-04-04T19:05:57Z makomo: jackdaniel: just wanted to let you know i enjoyed your McCLIM demo video, it was pretty cool! keep going! :-) 2018-04-04T19:07:22Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:09:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:10:38Z oleo: did anyone solve the problem with reader-macros not working on clim-listener ? 2018-04-04T19:11:51Z oleo: it actually works it's just i can't call something like [1 .. 3] for createing say a list (1 2 3) by inputting that 2018-04-04T19:12:08Z oleo: i have to always use a extra () around it 2018-04-04T19:12:23Z oleo: like in ([1 .. 3]) 2018-04-04T19:14:20Z oleo: i suppose i have define an extra command-table for it and/or command-translator.... 2018-04-04T19:14:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:14:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:16:03Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:17:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:17:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T19:19:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:21:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:21:19Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T19:21:34Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:24:05Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T19:24:25Z didi joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:24:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:26:21Z didi: Hey, I found out the greatest use of `result-form' from a `dolist' ever: A `push' form, which is only evaluated if the `dolist' doesn't eval a `return' form. 2018-04-04T19:27:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:28:11Z jackdaniel: makomo: I'm glad you've liked it :) 2018-04-04T19:28:46Z jackdaniel: I plan to record video on creating gadgets (and since mirroring branch has been merged after two weeks of development I can get back to it) 2018-04-04T19:29:15Z makomo: that sounds exciting, looking forward to it 2018-04-04T19:29:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:31:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:31:55Z jeosol: Anyone working with long running applications, how do you protect or account for failure before completion. A related problem, yesterday we had rain + thunderstorm in the night, woke up my computer tripped up -- UPS didn't last long 2018-04-04T19:32:01Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-04T19:32:19Z jcowan: Run on multiple machines, preferably in a commercial cloud 2018-04-04T19:32:36Z jcowan: If your house had been bombed, no amount of "reliability" would have helped. 2018-04-04T19:32:55Z jeosol: I am interested in options for saving state and possibly restarting. I have not done much, but have a small prototype that uses CLOS, saves the state in the object and writes to disk each step. Then I pick it up later and continue. 2018-04-04T19:33:03Z jeosol: jcowan: hahahaha 2018-04-04T19:33:37Z jcowan: OTOH perhaps you would not have cared so very much. 2018-04-04T19:33:49Z jcowan: "fate sharing" 2018-04-04T19:34:34Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_prevalence may be helpful for that problem 2018-04-04T19:34:43Z jeosol: jcowan: running on the cloud will take care of the power issue 2018-04-04T19:34:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:34:46Z jcowan: and the linked papers, of course 2018-04-04T19:35:19Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:35:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:35:47Z shangul joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:35:48Z jeosol: jcowan: thanks for the link. I guess I am doing something similar by idea but not robust enough. I will look into that 2018-04-04T19:36:16Z jcowan: the link to the first reference is borked, but http://web.archive.org/web/20170610140344/http://hillside.net:80/sugarloafplop/papers/5.pdf will work 2018-04-04T19:37:03Z shangul: what is licence of PCL?could I get a free(as in price) pdf legally? 2018-04-04T19:37:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:38:02Z phoe: shangul: the text is free to read on the gigamonkeys.com website, you can turn that HTML into PDFs 2018-04-04T19:38:23Z jeosol: jcowan: thanks. got a copy of the pdf. 2018-04-04T19:38:28Z phoe: you can find PDFs of it for free on the Internet but accessing them that way will be breaching its license. 2018-04-04T19:38:33Z jcowan: but not free to make derivative works, alas 2018-04-04T19:38:46Z shangul: phoe, and they have not made a PDF, right? 2018-04-04T19:39:22Z phoe: shangul: "they", what do you mean? the authors? 2018-04-04T19:39:38Z shangul: those who has published the book 2018-04-04T19:39:44Z phoe: they have made a PDF, it's an ebook version of the original book, and it has its price. 2018-04-04T19:40:08Z nydel: g'mo- oh wow, g'afternoon all. 2018-04-04T19:40:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:40:13Z phoe: hey nydel 2018-04-04T19:40:16Z shangul: beach, sorry, while talking my internet went down 2018-04-04T19:40:42Z phoe: shangul: no problem, you can access the channel logs at https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ 2018-04-04T19:40:47Z shangul: phoe, so pdf has its price and reading online is free, is it legal to download the htmls? 2018-04-04T19:41:16Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T19:41:28Z jcowan: In practice you cannot read them without downloading them into your browser cache, so yes. 2018-04-04T19:41:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:42:07Z emaczen joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:42:41Z shangul: And I suppose doing anything with those htmls for personal use is legal. 2018-04-04T19:42:42Z nydel: howdy phoe. i love to search the logs and see how even-dumber-than-today i was a while back 2018-04-04T19:43:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:43:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:44:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:45:40Z jcowan: shangul: Depends on your country, but in practice, who's going to find out? Just don't redistribute the results. 2018-04-04T19:46:31Z shangul: jcowan, in my country there isn't any copyright at all. it is myself who tries to. 2018-04-04T19:47:15Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:47:31Z jcowan: Then no worries, but if you do publish some derivative work, you should mark it as unauthorized to warn off any law-abiding people in Berne Convention countries 2018-04-04T19:47:41Z jcowan: (if any are left) 2018-04-04T19:48:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:48:55Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:49:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:50:01Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:50:39Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:50:41Z tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 2018-04-04T19:52:35Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:54:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:55:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:56:59Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T19:58:48Z jcowan: I don't understand this requirement in the HyperSpec under generic function lambda lists: "Zero or more required parameters must be specified." I don't see any circumstances in which this MUST could be violated. 2018-04-04T19:59:20Z Shinmera: (&optional foo) 2018-04-04T19:59:29Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-04T19:59:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T19:59:39Z jcowan: That has zero required parameters, which is permitted by the MUST. 2018-04-04T19:59:45Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-04T19:59:51Z Shinmera: Hmm, right 2018-04-04T20:00:19Z Shinmera: Could be another copypaste thing. 2018-04-04T20:00:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:00:38Z shangul quit (Quit: sudo rm -rf /usr/*) 2018-04-04T20:01:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:04:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:04:36Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:05:05Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:05:44Z phoe: well 2018-04-04T20:05:54Z phoe: jcowan: that's equivalent to "2 + 2 MUST equal 4" 2018-04-04T20:06:06Z phoe: just a meaningless sentence, happens in such written documents 2018-04-04T20:06:12Z phoe: big written specs and such 2018-04-04T20:06:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:06:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:06:50Z disumu joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:06:58Z jcowan: I carefully went through every instance of MUST, MAY, and SHOULD in R7RS-small and made sure they all referred to implementation requirements or non-requirements 2018-04-04T20:07:00Z jcowan: missed a few, though 2018-04-04T20:07:46Z jcowan: as opposed to user requirements, which are expressed as "It is an error if/unless ..." 2018-04-04T20:08:04Z jcowan: alternatively: An error is signaled / An error satisfying is signaled 2018-04-04T20:09:06Z jcowan: The Google CL stylesheet appears to require that code spell "connection" as "connexion", since it is (a) British and (b) shorter. 2018-04-04T20:09:12Z jcowan: I bet they don't, though 2018-04-04T20:09:28Z Cymew_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:09:29Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:11:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:11:35Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:15:25Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:15:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:15:47Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-04T20:17:05Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:17:30Z blurgh: Can "sbcl --load" take multiple files? (ex: sbcl --load ~/lisp/stumpwmrc.lisp ~/lisp/startstump.lisp) 2018-04-04T20:18:05Z Shinmera: yes, just write --load for each file 2018-04-04T20:18:13Z sjl: blurgh: you have to use --load before each, but yes 2018-04-04T20:18:53Z blurgh: sjl: so "sbcl --load ~/lisp/stumpwmrc.lisp --load ~/lisp/startstump.lisp" will work? 2018-04-04T20:19:27Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:19:43Z sjl: blurgh: it should 2018-04-04T20:19:46Z sjl: works for me 2018-04-04T20:19:47Z Shinmera: It's often much faster to just try something rather than asking people about it. 2018-04-04T20:19:53Z blurgh: sjl: thanks 2018-04-04T20:19:54Z sjl: yep 2018-04-04T20:20:14Z Cymew_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:20:33Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:20:39Z blurgh: Shinmera: I'd have to restart my computer if I did that right now. It's complicated. Sorry about bugging you guys. 2018-04-04T20:21:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:21:41Z sjl: blurgh: he means doing like `echo '(print 1)' > a.lisp && echo '(print 2)' > b.lisp && sbcl --load a.lisp --load b.lisp` 2018-04-04T20:21:54Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:22:09Z sjl: not necessarily rerunning your actual command 2018-04-04T20:25:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:27:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:31:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:32:04Z Quetzal2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-04T20:33:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:33:51Z zmt01 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:34:19Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:34:48Z zmt01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T20:36:04Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:37:34Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:38:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:38:39Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:39:51Z zotan joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:46:06Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:48:19Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-04T20:49:48Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:51:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:51:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:53:38Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:55:16Z anon joined #lisp 2018-04-04T20:55:25Z anon is now known as Guest69321 2018-04-04T20:56:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T20:57:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:00:09Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:01:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:02:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:02:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:03:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:05:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T21:08:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:09:07Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T21:09:36Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:09:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:09:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:10:23Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:10:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T21:10:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:10:59Z glv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-04T21:14:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:15:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:18:53Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:19:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:21:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:21:54Z ldb: #help 2018-04-04T21:22:38Z ldb: do we still have a message bot here? 2018-04-04T21:23:05Z phoe: ldb: which message bot? 2018-04-04T21:23:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T21:24:13Z ldb: phoe: something i can leave a note to other offline users 2018-04-04T21:24:40Z Bike: minion: memo for ldb: i think like this 2018-04-04T21:24:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ldb when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-04T21:24:41Z phoe: minion: memo for ldb: there's minion and this is his syntax 2018-04-04T21:24:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ldb when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-04T21:24:49Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:25:02Z didi: There's also /msg memoserv 2018-04-04T21:25:12Z ldb: thanks 2018-04-04T21:25:12Z minion: ldb, memo from Bike: i think like this 2018-04-04T21:25:12Z minion: ldb, memo from phoe: there's minion and this is his syntax 2018-04-04T21:26:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:27:24Z disumu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T21:27:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:29:19Z Shinmera: ::help notify 2018-04-04T21:29:19Z Colleen: Command Syntax: notify TARGET &STRING MESSAGE 2018-04-04T21:29:19Z Colleen: Documentation: Send a notification message that will be displayed as soon as the user speaks again. 2018-04-04T21:31:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:31:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:33:08Z ldb: minion: memo for verisimilitude: seem you used something like `&aux (&optional ...)' in `cl-ecma-48', but Clozure CL I use complains about that because lambda list keywords are specially treated in ccl 2018-04-04T21:33:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell verisimilitude when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-04T21:37:22Z k-hos: now this makes me wonder if you can get a bot chain going between these two 2018-04-04T21:37:53Z Shinmera: Please keep such experiments out of this channel. 2018-04-04T21:38:01Z k-hos: :> 2018-04-04T21:39:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:42:49Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:43:11Z antergos joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:43:37Z antergos: hello 2018-04-04T21:44:02Z ldb: k-hos: usually that can be solved by a black list 2018-04-04T21:44:07Z ldb: antergos: greeting 2018-04-04T21:44:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:44:58Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:45:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:45:45Z antergos quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-04T21:50:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:50:25Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:51:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T21:55:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:56:29Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T21:57:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:02:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:03:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:07:10Z Bicyclidine is now known as Bike 2018-04-04T22:07:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:09:28Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:11:30Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:12:23Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T22:12:36Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T22:12:58Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:13:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:16:07Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:17:12Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:17:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:19:41Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:20:05Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:21:52Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-04T22:24:34Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:27:20Z fourier: how to create a constant hash-table? I've tried alexandria's define-constant + (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ..), but on any attepmt to recompile the file (sbcl) i got an error on define-constart for my hash-table 2018-04-04T22:29:20Z fourier: the error is like: +TIMESTAMP-FORMAT-MAPPING+ is an already defined constant whose 2018-04-04T22:29:20Z fourier: value # is not 2018-04-04T22:29:20Z fourier: equal to the provided initial value 2018-04-04T22:29:20Z fourier: # under 2018-04-04T22:29:23Z fourier: #. 2018-04-04T22:29:27Z fourier: [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 2018-04-04T22:30:13Z fourier: so obiviously since i have filled the hash table in (eval-when) it is different from initial value 2018-04-04T22:30:30Z fourier: so the question is how to fill it without using the eval-when 2018-04-04T22:30:43Z Bike: define-constant has a :test argument 2018-04-04T22:30:49Z fourier: I know the list of keys and values beforehand 2018-04-04T22:31:00Z Bike: what are you using as the test? 2018-04-04T22:31:29Z fourier: hm let me roll out something real quick... 2018-04-04T22:32:28Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:33:12Z ldb: fourier: (defconstant zoo #.(let ((x (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash 1 x) 2) x)) 2018-04-04T22:33:29Z Bike: that doesn't solve the problem 2018-04-04T22:33:40Z fourier: yep 2018-04-04T22:33:57Z Bike: fourier: anyway, i'm going to assume you're using the wrong test. try passing equalp. 2018-04-04T22:34:16Z fourier: the real problem is that hash tables doesn't have any construction-time initializer list 2018-04-04T22:34:29Z fourier: I'm using equalp already, it was the first guess ofc 2018-04-04T22:34:35Z Shinmera: The easy fix is to not use constants. 2018-04-04T22:34:58Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:35:04Z Bike: oh, wait 2018-04-04T22:35:07Z Bike: the initial value has no count 2018-04-04T22:35:14Z fourier: exactly! 2018-04-04T22:35:16Z Bike: are you defining the hash table, and then altering it? 2018-04-04T22:35:27Z Bike: because that makes it, you know, not constant 2018-04-04T22:35:37Z fourier: yep because i cant create a hash table with a set of values as a constant! 2018-04-04T22:35:46Z didi: I'm with Shinmera. Constants are too finicky. 2018-04-04T22:35:53Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-04T22:35:54Z Bike: (define-constant whatever (let ((ret (make-hash-table ...))) (setf ...) ret) 2018-04-04T22:35:58Z Bike: ) 2018-04-04T22:36:12Z fourier: that is exactly a problem: how to create a constant hash table with pre-defined set of key/value 2018-04-04T22:36:17Z Bike: like that. 2018-04-04T22:36:37Z fourier: hm 2018-04-04T22:38:39Z ldb: fourier: doesn't #. help? 2018-04-04T22:39:06Z didi: Also for fun: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f9fa627 2018-04-04T22:39:19Z Bike: #. isn't really relevant 2018-04-04T22:40:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:41:01Z fourier: no the version with let doesn't help, same error, but the number of objects is the same now 2018-04-04T22:41:15Z Bike: what are the keys and values? 2018-04-04T22:41:41Z ldb: i see, defconstant can't prevent hash table's content immutable 2018-04-04T22:41:59Z fourier: key is a string, value is a function via #'function-name 2018-04-04T22:42:28Z fourier: and :test in #'equalp ofc 2018-04-04T22:42:39Z Bike: well, the value before and the value after aren't equalp somehow 2018-04-04T22:43:31Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:43:37Z fourier: +TIMESTAMP-FORMAT-MAPPING+ is an already defined constant whose 2018-04-04T22:43:37Z fourier: value # is not 2018-04-04T22:43:37Z fourier: equal to the provided initial value 2018-04-04T22:43:37Z fourier: # under 2018-04-04T22:43:40Z fourier: #. 2018-04-04T22:43:59Z Bike: yeah, so either the keys aren't equalp or the values aren't 2018-04-04T22:44:13Z fourier: interesting, its hard to understand why exactly are they not equal. keys are the strings so should be no problems 2018-04-04T22:44:14Z Shinmera: For this little number of values a hash table is unlikely to be much faster anyway. 2018-04-04T22:44:29Z fourier: but valuas are functionl like #'myparser-1 etc 2018-04-04T22:44:33Z Bike: are the functions being redefined? 2018-04-04T22:44:37Z pierpa_: what does the table test predicate have to do with the error? 2018-04-04T22:44:52Z pierpa_: DEFCONSTANT requires the values to be EQL 2018-04-04T22:45:01Z Bike: this is alexandria:define-constant 2018-04-04T22:45:09Z pierpa_: ah! sorry! 2018-04-04T22:45:34Z fourier: Bike: yes it looks like you up to something, probably since I recompile a file the values of #'myparser-1 are changed as well 2018-04-04T22:45:36Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:45:55Z fourier: the functions are all in the same file 2018-04-04T22:46:04Z Shinmera: Also fun thing about define-constant: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23sbcl?around=1518617175#1518617175 2018-04-04T22:46:40Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:47:07Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand what "copies" are involved 2018-04-04T22:47:55Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:48:09Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:48:24Z Bike: meaning at load time? 2018-04-04T22:48:34Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:48:41Z Bike: i suppose it's possible 2018-04-04T22:49:19Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:49:33Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T22:49:38Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T22:49:46Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2018-04-04T22:51:38Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-04T22:52:57Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-04T22:57:05Z fourier: ok off for now, will think about all organization tomorrow. the problem is even more annoying as it seems to work with LW but fail with SBCL :( 2018-04-04T22:58:25Z fourier: will ask here for help tomorrow if couldn't solve it 2018-04-04T23:00:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:00:43Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:00:49Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:01:28Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:01:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:02:09Z __rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:02:17Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:02:22Z Bike: sbcl is strict 2018-04-04T23:02:28Z Bike: probably just use defvar like people said, though 2018-04-04T23:03:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:03:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:05:30Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:05:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:05:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:07:15Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:08:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:09:15Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-04T23:09:51Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:10:08Z phoe joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:10:15Z Kundry_W_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:12:00Z aeth: I run into plenty of things that run in SBCL but fail with CCL. 2018-04-04T23:14:56Z didi left #lisp 2018-04-04T23:15:19Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:18:24Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:19:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:20:04Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:21:23Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:21:45Z mange joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:26:12Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-04T23:26:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:27:16Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-04T23:28:37Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-04T23:35:12Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2018-04-05T01:03:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:05:36Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:10:33Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-05T01:12:48Z liead is now known as adlai 2018-04-05T01:13:50Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:13:51Z verisimilitude: That's interesting, ldb. 2018-04-05T01:13:52Z minion: verisimilitude, memo from ldb: seem you used something like `&aux (&optional ...)' in `cl-ecma-48', but Clozure CL I use complains about that because lambda list keywords are specially treated in ccl 2018-04-05T01:16:18Z verisimilitude: Now, I'll double check, but I don't believe lambda list keywords are barred from being BOUND, since they're not FBOUND. 2018-04-05T01:16:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:17:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:18:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:18:59Z verisimilitude: >If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not defined as a standardized function, macro, or special operator, it is allowed to lexically bind it as a function (e.g., with flet), to declare the ftype of that binding, and (in implementations which provide the ability to do so) to trace that binding. 2018-04-05T01:19:16Z verisimilitude: Well, that's the wrong paragraph, actually. 2018-04-05T01:19:50Z saki joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:20:26Z verisimilitude: >If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not globally defined as a standardized dynamic variable or constant variable, it is allowed to lexically bind it and to declare the type of that binding, and it is allowed to locally establish it as a symbol macro (e.g., with symbol-macrolet). 2018-04-05T01:21:44Z verisimilitude: So, there's nothing in the standard that explicitly disallows this, either. 2018-04-05T01:21:56Z verisimilitude: So, the issue is with CCL, it seems. 2018-04-05T01:22:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:22:30Z verisimilitude: So, the issue is with CCL and I'm reluctant to change a program purely because an implementation is defective. 2018-04-05T01:22:34Z verisimilitude: What do you think? 2018-04-05T01:22:59Z jstypo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:23:16Z Bike: i think a lambda list like that is confusing because it does different things if the lambda list is destructuring 2018-04-05T01:23:46Z Bike: it's probably technically okay though 2018-04-05T01:24:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:29:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-05T01:31:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:35:13Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:35:26Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:36:13Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:36:50Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-05T01:37:17Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:40:03Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T01:43:54Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:49:16Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:49:45Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T01:53:22Z 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begin with & are conventionally reserved for use as lambda-list keywords and should not be used as variable names. Implementations of Common Lisp are free to provide additional lambda-list keywords." 2018-04-05T02:25:35Z sjl: Shinmera: does 3d-vectors have a way to get the distance between two vectors that doesn't require allocation/mutation? (vlength (v- v1 v2)) works but conses 2018-04-05T02:25:48Z sjl: something like https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Vector3.Distance.html 2018-04-05T02:25:59Z cmecca1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T02:26:20Z sjl: I could write it myself but figured I might have missed it since the docs claim "It contains most of the vector operations one would usually expect out of such a library" ;) 2018-04-05T02:26:55Z rme: Although that is a quotation from CLTL2, so feel free to argue against it, I suppose. 2018-04-05T02:29:57Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T02:31:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T02:33:23Z verisimilitude: It doesn't seem like there's an equivalent restriction in the HyperSpec, rme. 2018-04-05T02:33:42Z verisimilitude: What precisely does CCL do with them, I wonder. 2018-04-05T02:35:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T02:49:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-05T02:51:07Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-05T02:54:00Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T02:58:32Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T02:58:39Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T02:59:50Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:00:35Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:01:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:01:23Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:03:03Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-05T03:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:04:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:05:34Z fnkey joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:05:44Z pierpa_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-05T03:06:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:07:44Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:09:02Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:11:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:13:18Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:16:03Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:16:03Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T03:16:03Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:17:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:17:21Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:17:32Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-05T03:17:54Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:18:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:19:01Z _krator44 is now known as krator44 2018-04-05T03:19:07Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T03:19:07Z krator44 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:19:07Z krator44 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T03:19:07Z krator44 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:19:09Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T03:19:34Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:19:58Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:20:43Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:22:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:22:37Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T03:23:02Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:23:09Z krwq joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:23:28Z saki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T03:24:48Z ldb: verisimilitude: seems CCL use MEMQ to match lambda list keywords. see `verify-lambda-list' https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/003917cbbce90b7a7b5fa4bf90e9fe424e5637e9/level-1/l1-clos-boot.lisp 2018-04-05T03:25:34Z saki joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:26:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:27:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:28:46Z krwq: what's currently recommended way to setup tests? I used to add perform method which loads the system and does symbol-call in my asd file but after upgrading sbcl I'm getting warnings about deprecated recursive use of (ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE 'ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP... 2018-04-05T03:32:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:32:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:33:07Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:33:07Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T03:34:55Z verisimilitude: What's your opinion on this issue, ldb; do you think CCL violates the standard by disallowing this? 2018-04-05T03:37:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:37:44Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:41:42Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T03:42:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:43:58Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-05T03:44:19Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:45:32Z ldb: verisimilitude: CCL's code base is quite old, and since CLTL2 mentioned that and CLHS seems has no spec about it, I won't consider it as violation. One more reason I discourage to use `&' prefixed words as variables is it confuses syntax highliting. 2018-04-05T03:46:35Z ldb and worong syntax highliting confuses users 2018-04-05T03:46:46Z verisimilitude: I found that more interesting than anything; so much of the Emacs Common Lisp syntax highlighting is unintelligent to the point of amusing more than frustrating. 2018-04-05T03:47:11Z verisimilitude: However, since CLTL2 does mention it, I suppose it's worth changing. 2018-04-05T03:47:25Z kajo quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T03:47:29Z verisimilitude: Since it's a small change and all of that. 2018-04-05T03:47:39Z verisimilitude: Regardless, it's still disappointing. 2018-04-05T03:47:47Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:47:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:47:52Z verisimilitude: Anyway, I'll have it changed and updated later. 2018-04-05T03:48:13Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:49:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2018-04-05T03:49:06Z ldb: i agree with your comments on emacs, lem is way better on syntax things 2018-04-05T03:50:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-05T03:51:49Z ldb: gudo morjing and which time zone are you in, beach 2018-04-05T03:52:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T03:52:40Z beach: UTC+1, but consider this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html 2018-04-05T03:52:45Z beach: sorry, +2 now. 2018-04-05T03:52:51Z ldb: wow, 6 am is early 2018-04-05T03:53:22Z beach: It's a genetic defect in my family. 2018-04-05T03:53:37Z ldb: thanks for your link 2018-04-05T03:53:42Z beach: Sure. 2018-04-05T03:54:30Z verisimilitude: I always simply avoid using a specific greeting. 2018-04-05T03:55:02Z verisimilitude: Then again, I'm also careful to change idioms and whatnot to ``writing'' rather than ``speaking'' or ``talking'' when using a medium like this. 2018-04-05T03:57:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:57:30Z verisimilitude: How would one pronounce ``ugt'', anyway; I'd figure ``ugh'' with a hard ``t'' sound at the end. 2018-04-05T03:57:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:57:59Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:57:59Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-05T03:58:25Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T03:59:58Z ldb: verisimilitude: many words are not intented to be pronunced. e.g. ldbeth 2018-04-05T04:00:19Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:01:52Z verisimilitude: Sure, but that won't stop me from trying. 2018-04-05T04:02:21Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:02:49Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:02:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:03:04Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:03:38Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:03:42Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2018-04-05T04:05:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:06:31Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:09:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:10:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping 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2018-04-05T04:29:44Z saki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:30:17Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:30:46Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:31:35Z kark joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:32:38Z epony: verisimilitude maybe it is pronounced UGT as spelled out letters :-) 2018-04-05T04:33:18Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:33:39Z verisimilitude: That's awful. 2018-04-05T04:35:15Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:36:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:37:48Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-05T04:37:49Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:38:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:39:19Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-05T04:40:02Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:43:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:43:33Z zmt00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T04:43:59Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:44:03Z verisimilitude: The cl-ecma-48.lisp file is updated, but I've not updated the cl-ecma-48.tgz file, yet. 2018-04-05T04:44:18Z ldb: thanks 2018-04-05T04:45:35Z ldb: load success 2018-04-05T04:45:42Z verisimilitude: Alright then. 2018-04-05T04:46:17Z verisimilitude: I was careful to double check my searching and replacing, but do tell me if it doesn't work, which means I made a mistake somewhere with that. 2018-04-05T04:47:01Z verisimilitude: Then again, you were probably loading that to load ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, I suppose. 2018-04-05T04:48:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:50:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:53:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T04:53:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T04:58:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T05:00:21Z ismdeep joined #lisp 2018-04-05T05:00:31Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T05:00:31Z drunkencoder quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T05:00:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T05:00:52Z 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Can you give me please an example 2018-04-05T06:09:26Z k-hos: eval would be one way I believe 2018-04-05T06:09:26Z verisimilitude: Use LAMBDA. 2018-04-05T06:09:51Z verisimilitude: (defun example (n) (lambda (m) (+ n m))) 2018-04-05T06:10:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:10:24Z k-hos: I assumed making the function body at runtime 2018-04-05T06:11:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T06:11:32Z LdBeth: use high older function 2018-04-05T06:11:45Z LdBeth: AKA lambda or closure 2018-04-05T06:11:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T06:12:03Z asarch: Thank you 2018-04-05T06:12:07Z asarch: Thank you very much guys :-) 2018-04-05T06:12:09Z verisimilitude: You don't need EVAL, k-hos. 2018-04-05T06:12:20Z verisimilitude: You can use FUNCTION. 2018-04-05T06:13:21Z LdBeth: •high order• 2018-04-05T06:14:48Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T06:15:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T06:17:26Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T06:20:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:20:27Z verisimilitude: The cl-ecma-48.tgz is now also updated. 2018-04-05T06:23:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:24:12Z verisimilitude: Actually, that's an old version of the code; I suppose I forgot to upload the latest version. 2018-04-05T06:24:18Z verisimilitude: Oh well; I'll do it later. 2018-04-05T06:26:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:27:50Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:28:12Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:28:30Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T06:30:53Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:31:24Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T06:32:02Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:34:02Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:39:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T06:40:19Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T06:40:53Z verisimilitude: So, what are you all working on lately? 2018-04-05T06:43:13Z beach: minion: Please tell verisimilitude about SICL. 2018-04-05T06:43:14Z minion: verisimilitude: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2018-04-05T06:43:19Z beach: minion: Please tell verisimilitude about Cleavir. 2018-04-05T06:43:20Z minion: verisimilitude: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future 2018-04-05T06:44:05Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:48:54Z LdBeth: beach: so, start from an assembler? 2018-04-05T06:49:04Z beach: No. 2018-04-05T06:49:25Z beach: I am using the full Common Lisp language to implement Common Lisp. 2018-04-05T06:50:03Z LdBeth: I guess I’ve read your paper 2018-04-05T06:50:05Z beach: The code generator of the compiler will obviously contain a few lines of assembler, of course. 2018-04-05T06:51:16Z beach: LdBeth: I don't think I have a published paper on the basic organization of SICL or Cleavir. I am waiting until I have a more complete system. 2018-04-05T06:51:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:53:42Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:53:56Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T06:54:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:54:29Z verisimilitude: That's interesting, beach. 2018-04-05T06:54:38Z beach: Thanks. 2018-04-05T06:55:00Z verisimilitude: I also have ambitions to eventually create a Common Lisp system, but I'm currently working on a machine code development environment, so that's a ways away. 2018-04-05T06:55:33Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:55:40Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T06:55:43Z beach: Are you saying that the current work is a step on the way? 2018-04-05T06:56:02Z LdBeth: I’m looking for reading materials on tech details of making such a CL compiler 2018-04-05T06:56:12Z verisimilitude: The machine code development environment is in-progress, which prevents me from using it to work on a Common Lisp implementation is what is meant. 2018-04-05T06:56:25Z beach: LdBeth: You won't find much detail in the literature. 2018-04-05T06:56:35Z beach: LdBeth: There is Lisp in Small Pieces of course. 2018-04-05T06:56:48Z verisimilitude: Now, beach, I take it this implementation uses :SICL in *FEATURES*, right? 2018-04-05T06:57:10Z LdBeth: But all I find useful is general designs such as Compliers Principles 2018-04-05T06:57:18Z beach: verisimilitude: I am trying to figure out how developing a Common Lisp system would depend on a machine code environment. 2018-04-05T06:57:36Z beach: verisimilitude: It is far from done, but it would probably use something like that, yes. 2018-04-05T06:57:56Z beach: LdBeth: Lisp in Small Pieces is a good book to start with. 2018-04-05T06:57:56Z verisimilitude: So, I intend to write most of the COMMON-LISP package in Common Lisp, implementing primitives and whatnot in machine code. 2018-04-05T06:58:11Z verisimilitude: Will this implementation provide its own mechanism to exit; if so, I'll add it to SHUT-IT-DOWN already. 2018-04-05T06:58:34Z loke: Is there a way to print a symbol using the conventions of readtable-case :INVERT, without actually changing the readtable? 2018-04-05T06:58:35Z beach: verisimilitude: Let's discuss that in a few years when I have made some more progress. 2018-04-05T06:58:48Z verisimilitude: Alright, but I may not be here in a few years. 2018-04-05T06:58:55Z beach: Oh well. 2018-04-05T06:59:05Z verisimilitude: Writing a language entirely in itself can be interesting, but I find it much easier to simply write the base in something else. 2018-04-05T06:59:30Z verisimilitude: You could implement the printing function yourself, loke. 2018-04-05T06:59:46Z beach: verisimilitude: I tried that technique and it is very painful. 2018-04-05T06:59:46Z verisimilitude: The readtable controls reading, not printing, of course. 2018-04-05T06:59:58Z beach: verisimilitude: I think you will agree with me once you try it. 2018-04-05T07:00:33Z verisimilitude: I find it much easier to think about having precise control over the compiled result if it's not written in itself. 2018-04-05T07:00:44Z beach: Good luck with that. 2018-04-05T07:00:52Z verisimilitude: Thank you. 2018-04-05T07:01:07Z verisimilitude: It's still many years away, though. 2018-04-05T07:01:18Z LdBeth: That’s why I think the assembler should come out first 2018-04-05T07:01:20Z verisimilitude: So, what is the draw of this SICL; how does it distinguish itself? 2018-04-05T07:01:23Z beach: verisimilitude: I'll follow your progress with great interest. 2018-04-05T07:01:35Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:01:38Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/ 2018-04-05T07:01:59Z verisimilitude: This is my website; I don't currently have any material on this planned Common Lisp implementation, however. 2018-04-05T07:02:11Z beach: verisimilitude: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf 2018-04-05T07:02:20Z loke: verisimilitude: Not true. 2018-04-05T07:02:22Z verisimilitude: I've been giving it a decent amount of mulling elsewhere, though. 2018-04-05T07:02:32Z loke: The current readtable affects how symbolsa re printed 2018-04-05T07:02:54Z verisimilitude: I won't check; I suppose I was mistaken, then. 2018-04-05T07:03:02Z verisimilitude: In that case, why not simply rebind it temporarily, loke? 2018-04-05T07:03:34Z beach: verisimilitude: If you have any questions about SICL, I'll be happy to answer them. But right now, I am off to run some errands. 2018-04-05T07:03:45Z loke: verisimilitude: I do, but I find it a bit ugly. But perhaps I have the wrong sense of æthetics. 2018-04-05T07:03:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:03:57Z verisimilitude: Alright; it's not currently easy for me to view a PDF, though. 2018-04-05T07:04:26Z verisimilitude: A brief summary of a sentence or so, if possible, would be appreciated, when you get the time, beach. 2018-04-05T07:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:10:33Z bjorkint0sh: how come? are you on a text-only terminal or something, verisimilitude? 2018-04-05T07:12:04Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100#/media/File:DEC_VT100_terminal.jpg 2018-04-05T07:14:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:14:28Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:14:39Z phoe: verisimilitude: SICL is a highly modular CL implementation written in CL and bootstrapped from CL. 2018-04-05T07:15:31Z verisimilitude: I use Emacs with Ghostscript to read PDFs, but my GuixSD X11 Emacs is currently defective; I'm using no-x Emacs, currently. 2018-04-05T07:15:43Z verisimilitude: Alright, phoe; it's appreciated. 2018-04-05T07:16:15Z LdBeth: Sounds ironic 2018-04-05T07:16:27Z verisimilitude: Why? 2018-04-05T07:16:51Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:17:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:18:46Z LdBeth: Because Emacs is defective on Linux. Although I know that is not rare. 2018-04-05T07:19:26Z verisimilitude: You use Vim, right? 2018-04-05T07:19:54Z LdBeth: No. I use GNU/Emacs and XEmacs 2018-04-05T07:20:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:20:12Z bjorkint0sh: what the blazes is GuixSD? 2018-04-05T07:20:15Z ebzzry_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:20:18Z LdBeth: But on a Mac 2018-04-05T07:20:52Z bjorkint0sh: huh. 2018-04-05T07:21:08Z LdBeth: bjorkint0sh: it uses scheme(Guile) as system wide script language 2018-04-05T07:21:14Z bjorkint0sh: remarkable! 2018-04-05T07:21:25Z bjorkint0sh: is there a particular advantage to it? 2018-04-05T07:21:31Z bjorkint0sh: Guix, ie. 2018-04-05T07:21:37Z bjorkint0sh: over other things 2018-04-05T07:21:49Z verisimilitude: It doesn't have SystemD. 2018-04-05T07:21:54Z verisimilitude: It's endorsed by GNU. 2018-04-05T07:21:58Z LdBeth: Which is promoted by RMS. 2018-04-05T07:22:00Z Shinmera: It's also off-topic 2018-04-05T07:22:08Z bjorkint0sh: right. 2018-04-05T07:22:11Z LdBeth: But still experimental 2018-04-05T07:22:16Z bjorkint0sh: and lispy. 2018-04-05T07:22:17Z LdBeth: Sorry 2018-04-05T07:22:17Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:22:17Z verisimilitude: It's better, though. 2018-04-05T07:22:28Z bjorkint0sh: (which is on topic. the lispy guile bit) 2018-04-05T07:22:31Z verisimilitude: I used it when it was very early and it worked well even then. 2018-04-05T07:22:44Z verisimilitude: You configure the entire system in Guile, which is nice. 2018-04-05T07:22:53Z LdBeth: bjorkint0sh: we only talk CL here :P 2018-04-05T07:23:01Z bjorkint0sh: right! sorry. 2018-04-05T07:23:12Z verisimilitude: I would just run X11 and Emacs, but there are a few other things I sometimes need to do that prevent that right now. 2018-04-05T07:24:23Z verisimilitude: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 2018-04-05T07:24:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:25:39Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:26:33Z LdBeth: There was a fork called SXEmacs, which defaults work as login shell 2018-04-05T07:27:57Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:29:42Z bjorkint0sh: does ABCL get used a lot? 2018-04-05T07:30:23Z LdBeth: No. Younger people prefer Clojure 2018-04-05T07:31:37Z shrdlu68: I, for one, prefer CL. 2018-04-05T07:31:55Z loke: shrdlu68: CL is quantifiably better 2018-04-05T07:32:01Z shrdlu68: Hmm, wait a minute, am I no longer young? 2018-04-05T07:32:14Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:33:02Z heisig: I think I qualify as 'younger people' and I definitely prefer CL. 2018-04-05T07:33:14Z heisig: And I use ABCL occasionally. 2018-04-05T07:33:21Z LdBeth: Even you’re still young physically, you mind gets older(and mature) when you start using CL 2018-04-05T07:33:23Z loke: ABCL is actually remarkably good. 2018-04-05T07:34:35Z jackdaniel: LdBeth: what you say above doesn't make much sense 2018-04-05T07:36:41Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:37:02Z LdBeth: I just expressed my frustration, jackdaniel, yes it isn’t a matter of young or old 2018-04-05T07:37:32Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: moritura te salutat) 2018-04-05T07:37:38Z LdBeth: and it’s hard to judge bad or good 2018-04-05T07:40:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:41:09Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:42:23Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T07:44:25Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:44:44Z Oddity joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:44:50Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-05T07:45:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:45:05Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:45:11Z hajovonta: good morning 2018-04-05T07:46:11Z LdBeth: Morning 2018-04-05T07:47:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:48:09Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:48:26Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:49:13Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:49:49Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:50:25Z LdBeth: And good night 2018-04-05T07:50:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:51:55Z hajovonta: :) 2018-04-05T07:54:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:55:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T07:55:52Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T07:58:35Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:00:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:02:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T08:03:13Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:03:15Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T08:05:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T08:05:46Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:06:02Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:07:43Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T08:08:17Z fnkey quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T08:08:20Z emaczen joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:09:22Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-05T08:09:25Z minion joined #lisp 2018-04-05T08:10:12Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T08:10:27Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 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2018-04-05T09:49:16Z jstypo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T09:51:00Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-05T09:51:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T09:52:17Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T09:54:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T09:57:30Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-05T09:57:58Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:01:50Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T10:02:06Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:03:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:03:54Z phoe: #+() is dangerous when someone pushes NIL into *features*. 2018-04-05T10:03:58Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:04:15Z phoe: What is better than that? #+(or)? 2018-04-05T10:04:18Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:04:25Z jackdaniel: that's why Newly Implemented Lisp implementation will never work reliably :) 2018-04-05T10:04:31Z jackdaniel: #+(or) is a portable solution for that, yes 2018-04-05T10:04:36Z phoe: thanks 2018-04-05T10:04:51Z Shinmera: I have yet to see an explanation as to why anyone would ever push NIL onto features to begin with. 2018-04-05T10:06:09Z jackdaniel: still that's not a good argument for doing things which are semantically wrong 2018-04-05T10:06:30Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:07:09Z Shinmera: #+NIL is significantly easier to read than #+(or) in my opinion. 2018-04-05T10:08:53Z phoe: Shinmera: (pushnew nil *features*) is a magical way to break a lot of Lisp code in unexplainable ways 2018-04-05T10:08:57Z jackdaniel: just as C is easier to read because you don't have to count the parenthesis ;) I'd say it is a matter of getting used to it, but #+NIL being semantically wrong is a fact from the specification standpoint and the programmer's desired effect 2018-04-05T10:09:50Z Shinmera: phoe: Indeed, so why would anyone want to do that? 2018-04-05T10:09:53Z jackdaniel: that said – everyone is free to pick his own mistakes 2018-04-05T10:10:03Z jackdaniel: (and to defend them) 2018-04-05T10:10:09Z shrdlu68: What is the name of that lightweight https proxy people are fond of using? 2018-04-05T10:10:16Z phoe: Shinmera: mistakes happen 2018-04-05T10:10:17Z Shinmera: nginx? 2018-04-05T10:10:31Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: Nope, lighter. 2018-04-05T10:10:37Z shrdlu68: and not polipo. 2018-04-05T10:10:43Z phoe: and if I wanted to use code that's only incorrect in some circumstances rather than code that's correct period, I'd be using Javascript 2018-04-05T10:12:13Z jackdaniel: regarding block comments I find #; reader macro very readable 2018-04-05T10:12:19Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:12:19Z jackdaniel: I'm not using it though 2018-04-05T10:12:48Z jackdaniel: (custom reader macro, not something present in the image by default) 2018-04-05T10:12:54Z Shinmera: phoe: Whether people write correct code or not has nothing to do with the language. 2018-04-05T10:13:07Z phoe: Shinmera: you're right. 2018-04-05T10:13:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: how does it differ from #| ? 2018-04-05T10:13:42Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:13:49Z Shinmera: I assume it behaves like #+(or) 2018-04-05T10:14:03Z phoe: oh, I see 2018-04-05T10:14:09Z ebzzry_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:14:59Z jstypo quit (Quit: I think, therefore I drink) 2018-04-05T10:15:54Z ebzzry_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:16:54Z jackdaniel: hm, word "block" was misleading, my bad 2018-04-05T10:17:23Z jackdaniel: form comment, ignores next form which is read, so essentially #+(or) 2018-04-05T10:20:28Z Quetzal2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:22:41Z Shinmera: Personally I just comment things out. With expand-region bound to C-q, that's just as quick as C-q M-; 2018-04-05T10:27:30Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T10:29:48Z cmecca1 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:35:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T10:35:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T10:37:04Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:44:02Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:47:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:49:17Z cmecca1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T10:49:58Z HDurer_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T10:51:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:02:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:05:27Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:15:49Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:16:05Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:18:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:22:45Z isoraqathedh_ is now known as isoraqathedh 2018-04-05T11:23:14Z cmecca1 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:23:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:26:25Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-05T11:27:59Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:28:19Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:29:40Z Quetzal2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T11:31:27Z ebzzry_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:34:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:34:21Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:35:51Z omilu joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:39:39Z guicho joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:39:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:40:02Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T11:43:28Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T11:44:13Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:46:13Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T11:46:55Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-05T11:48:22Z Quetzal2 quit (Quit: ?? Bye!) 2018-04-05T11:51:22Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T12:00:07Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T12:00:28Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T12:00:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:02:57Z arkaros joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:04:25Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-05T12:09:07Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-05T12:09:35Z arkaros quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2018-04-05T12:09:46Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:09:56Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T12:10:48Z glv joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:15:02Z margeas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T12:15:26Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:16:43Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:26:55Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:28:29Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T12:30:27Z knicklux joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:40:57Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T12:46:19Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:46:39Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T12:49:13Z Xach: Hmm, I wonder if there's an existing easy way to "refactor" the frequent use of a complex accessor into a local variable in emacs. 2018-04-05T12:49:55Z Xach: e.g. when (muxform (first (flob-interval rocket))) appears 7 times in a function 2018-04-05T12:55:17Z beach: You have to wait for Second Climacs. 2018-04-05T12:57:17Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-05T12:58:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:01:28Z _death: didn't redshank have something for it 2018-04-05T13:01:49Z loke: Xach: symbol-macrolet? 2018-04-05T13:02:11Z Xach: M-x symbol-macrolet? 2018-04-05T13:02:38Z phoe: you'd need a global macro for that it seems 2018-04-05T13:02:39Z Xach: _death: i thought redshank was more simplistic. i'll revisit. 2018-04-05T13:03:24Z Xach: I don't think I need a macro at all. I want to bind a value instead of computing it over and over. 2018-04-05T13:03:42Z schweers: does quicklisp do any kind of security on the code it loads over the net? 2018-04-05T13:03:45Z Xach: Introduce a let binding and replace the text in a form. 2018-04-05T13:03:48Z Xach: schweers: no. 2018-04-05T13:04:15Z schweers: any plans to change that anytime? 2018-04-05T13:04:16Z Xach: schweers: in the near future archive integrity will be checked by signature and digest. but the composition of the archive is still a weak point. 2018-04-05T13:05:06Z Xach: there will be confidence that code comes from the expected place, but it might be bad code. 2018-04-05T13:06:04Z Xach: Anyway, I can do what I want fairly easily enough manually, with a combination of paredit, some typing, and query-replace. 2018-04-05T13:06:23Z Xach: I will check out redshank and do some googling. 2018-04-05T13:06:35Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:08:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:09:35Z _death: Xach: I don't use redshank, but I'd likely do something like that with multiple-cursors 2018-04-05T13:10:03Z Xach: _death: thanks 2018-04-05T13:10:04Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:11:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:11:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:13:05Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:13:21Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T13:13:40Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:21:58Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:22:17Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:25:41Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:26:10Z Xach: /win 3 2018-04-05T13:26:50Z loke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:27:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:27:23Z loke` joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:28:05Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T13:30:39Z Trystam joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:33:12Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:33:34Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2018-04-05T13:33:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:35:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:36:48Z glv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T13:36:57Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:48:28Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:48:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:49:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T13:49:55Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:52:13Z MetaYan: [1;3D[1;3C[1;3D[1;3C 2018-04-05T13:54:14Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:54:31Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:57:26Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T13:57:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T13:58:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T13:59:12Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:01:08Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T14:01:33Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:02:43Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T14:03:08Z epony: English is not my native language, now it tries to be. I always forget one word and have trouble remembering it, there is something wrong with it. Endorse is heard from marketing leaflets waving salesmen with a previous career. Thank you for reminding it to me, verisimilitude. 2018-04-05T14:03:28Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:06:43Z loke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:13:11Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:17:32Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T14:17:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:22:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:22:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:24:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:24:52Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:26:19Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:28:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:29:25Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-05T14:30:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:33:05Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T14:33:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:33:44Z shrdlu68: beach: Your LispOS paper is thought-provoking. Something has to play the role of a kernel, right? 2018-04-05T14:34:36Z shrdlu68: I mean, who'll do the scheduling? Call init? Handle devices? 2018-04-05T14:37:09Z dlowe: eventually you're going to have to do some inline asm in any kernel 2018-04-05T14:37:20Z phoe: shrdlu68: obviously a kernel will have to do that 2018-04-05T14:37:40Z phoe: but the fun part is that the kernel is an implementation detail in that paper 2018-04-05T14:38:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:38:04Z phoe: as in, the paper AFAIR does not concern itself with scheduling/init/devices, so it can be done in any suitable manner 2018-04-05T14:38:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:39:06Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes, there will be a collection of functions and such for dealing with that. 2018-04-05T14:39:20Z beach: shrdlu68: However, there does not have to a be a monolithic "kernel". 2018-04-05T14:39:27Z beach: Even Multics did not have such a thing. 2018-04-05T14:39:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:40:32Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2018-04-05T14:40:50Z beach: dlowe: There is very likely going to have to be a few lines of assembly-like code here and there. Sure. 2018-04-05T14:42:31Z shrdlu68: beach: A so-called micro-kernel? 2018-04-05T14:42:38Z beach: No, nor kernel at all. 2018-04-05T14:42:52Z beach: Depending on your terminology of course. 2018-04-05T14:42:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:43:45Z Shinmera: There is an environment, of course, but not a separate entity that acts as the kernel. 2018-04-05T14:43:55Z beach: Right. 2018-04-05T14:43:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:44:05Z beach: I am thinking of taking inspiration from I/O Kit from Apple for device drivers, except using CLOS instead of C++ (of course). 2018-04-05T14:44:09Z phoe: shrdlu68: as far as I understand beach's reasoning here, there's *something* that does that. What exactly it is and what terminology is used to describe it is an implementation detail. 2018-04-05T14:44:21Z shrdlu68: So what do you call this not-kernel? 2018-04-05T14:44:36Z beach: shrdlu68: A collection of OS functions and objects. 2018-04-05T14:45:33Z beach: shrdlu68: Think a Common Lisp system where some of the code is dedicated to managing devices, scheduling threads, etc. 2018-04-05T14:45:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:45:55Z beach: You can name that collection if you like. I don't see the need myself. 2018-04-05T14:46:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:46:56Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T14:47:34Z beach: In Multics, since every program was contained in a segment, the "kernel" was just a collection of segments. You could replace any such segment without rebooting, and every program would instantly see the difference. A device driver could be replaced for instance, or the code for some system call. 2018-04-05T14:47:43Z shrdlu68: So the Linux kernel is a collection of OS functions and objects, plus some other thing{,s}. 2018-04-05T14:48:02Z beach: Yes, but it also has the nasty property of being monolithic. 2018-04-05T14:48:20Z beach: You can't just go in and replace the code for a system call without rebooting. 2018-04-05T14:48:25Z verisimi`: Alright; you're welcome, epony. 2018-04-05T14:48:36Z beach: shrdlu68: You have to replace the entire thing, and then restart. 2018-04-05T14:48:37Z Shinmera: And the kernel lives in a separate world than user-space. 2018-04-05T14:49:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:50:21Z beach: Though in the Lisp OS I am thinking of, since most applications would not be able to manipulate raw addresses, there is no particular need to make them execute in a non-privileged state. 2018-04-05T14:50:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:50:51Z beach: Applications written in C using the traditional technique would still have to execute unprivileged. 2018-04-05T14:51:09Z beach: And they would not be able to manipulate Common Lisp objects directly. 2018-04-05T14:53:23Z shrdlu68: I see. 2018-04-05T14:53:36Z beach: verisimi`: SICL is different in that it uses more modern programming techniques than most existing implementations, simply because most implementations were written before CLOS existed. And the idea is to make the code simpler, so therefore easier to maintain, than existing systems. This property, I hope, will encourage improvements and optimizations that would be difficult in existing implementations. 2018-04-05T14:53:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T14:53:44Z TMA: beach: it is not entirely accurate. you can change any system call code at runtime, it is a matter of swapping in a different function pointer to the syscall dispatch table. It is just not pleasant and there are problems with C not having a usable notion of CHANGE-CLASS, so you are basically stuck with the data structures you already have 2018-04-05T14:54:21Z beach: TMA: Yes, you are right. Forgive me for my pedagogical simplifications. 2018-04-05T14:54:28Z shrdlu68: beach: But how do you tell a program is capable of manipulating raw addresses or not? 2018-04-05T14:54:46Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: It has to request permission to do so 2018-04-05T14:54:58Z beach: shrdlu68: Such a program would have to become a particular subclass of FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT. 2018-04-05T14:55:40Z beach: shrdlu68: And when such an object is called, it would remap the address space. Something that most functions would not need to do. 2018-04-05T14:57:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T14:58:12Z shrdlu68: The clearest difference between the kernel and the not-kernel to me at this point is that a not-kernel does not a need a reboot. 2018-04-05T14:58:47Z beach: shrdlu68: In Common Lisp you can't take some arbitrary instructions and create a callable function out of them. You have to go through COMPILE, or equivalent. In Lisp OS, to turn some C code into such a program, you would need some other similar compiler function and it would create the kind of object that remaps the address space. 2018-04-05T14:59:02Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes, that's pretty much it. 2018-04-05T14:59:19Z beach: shrdlu68: Again, depending on terminology, of course. 2018-04-05T15:00:10Z beach: When I hear or use "kernel", I think "monolithic piece of code created by a 1960s linker and that must be replaced entirely in order to update even a single instruction". 2018-04-05T15:00:25Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T15:01:11Z beach: TMA: And forgive me again for my pedagogical simplifications. 2018-04-05T15:01:37Z shrdlu68: beach: Say I have an arbitrary binary that I want to run on your OS, what's the sequence of events from executing it to seeing a "Hello, world!" printed on the screen? 2018-04-05T15:02:14Z beach: You won't be able to execute an "arbitrary binary". 2018-04-05T15:02:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:02:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:02:43Z beach: shrdlu68: It is better if you think Common Lisp than if you think Linux. 2018-04-05T15:02:51Z shrdlu68: Ah, so I can only execute certain kinds of objects. 2018-04-05T15:03:11Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes, (defun hello-world () (format t "hello world")) for instance. 2018-04-05T15:03:22Z beach: It would create a Common Lisp function that would then be callable. 2018-04-05T15:03:26Z TMA: I use "kernel" for elevated privileges code (namely when the privilege elevation is hardware assisted) 2018-04-05T15:03:46Z beach: TMA: That is certainly a valid way to use the word. 2018-04-05T15:03:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:04:09Z beach: TMA: Then, in my Lisp OS, pretty much everything would be the "kernel". 2018-04-05T15:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:04:37Z TMA: just mentioning it so that there is no confusion, not trying to impose that meaning 2018-04-05T15:04:45Z beach: I fully understand. 2018-04-05T15:05:21Z beach: And it's a perfectly valid use of the word. Just not very useful for the Lisp OS I am thinking of. 2018-04-05T15:05:30Z TMA: how would be "untrusted" code handled then? 2018-04-05T15:05:37Z shrdlu68: What if I have C source and want to run it on your OS? 2018-04-05T15:05:46Z beach: TMA: I just wrote that a few lines back. 2018-04-05T15:06:09Z beach: shrdlu68: I just wrote that a few lines back. 2018-04-05T15:06:18Z TMA: sure, it has to go through something like COMPILE to grant the privileges of executing the unsafe parts 2018-04-05T15:06:28Z beach: It would have to be compiled with a special compiler to create a special subclass of funcallable-standard-object. 2018-04-05T15:07:06Z shrdlu68: That's a lot of work, for all the C-source-like objects out there. 2018-04-05T15:07:10Z beach: But I am thinking that such code would be (and should be) unusual. 2018-04-05T15:07:23Z beach: shrdlu68: I am not planning to use those. 2018-04-05T15:08:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:08:10Z verisimi`: Alright; that's interesting, beach. 2018-04-05T15:08:10Z DVSSA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T15:08:20Z beach: verisimi`: Thanks. 2018-04-05T15:08:26Z verisimi` is now known as verisimilitude 2018-04-05T15:08:28Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:09:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:09:48Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:10:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:13:22Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:13:22Z pyericz quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T15:13:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:13:37Z nullniverse quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T15:13:39Z TMA: it becomes problematic when untrusted code can request compilation via the special compiler -- or at least that is my gut feeling 2018-04-05T15:14:17Z beach: No more than when a Unix program calls `cc'. 2018-04-05T15:15:31Z TMA: the whole purpose of the special compiler is that it allows marking some potentially unsafe code (code that uses raw addresses) as executable 2018-04-05T15:15:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:16:15Z TMA: beach: I have understood that it is more like cc followed by modprobe 2018-04-05T15:16:30Z beach: No, the purpose is to create a Common Lisp function that, when executed, changes the address mapping so that it can't do anything other than what a standard Unix program can do. 2018-04-05T15:16:39Z shrdlu68: The way I understand it, the system simply does not understand unsafe code. It does not know how to run unsafe code. 2018-04-05T15:17:05Z beach: It will run such code in its separate address space, just like Unix would do. 2018-04-05T15:17:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:17:33Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:17:37Z beach: And it would have to manipulate Common Lisp objects though "file descriptors", i.e. small integers. 2018-04-05T15:18:33Z TMA: oh, I have messed up the one that allows to patch the lisp-os's parts involving inline assembly/raw address with the C-programs enabling one 2018-04-05T15:18:38Z beach: I don't quite understand why the focus here is on something that I consider totally exceptional, that I would rather not see at all, but that MIGHT be required in SOME VERY unique cases. 2018-04-05T15:19:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:19:27Z beach: Patching the Lisp OS would be the same as patching a Common Lisp program, i.e. a function would be replaced, or a class would be redefined, etc. 2018-04-05T15:19:27Z shrdlu68: beach: It's a matter of perspective. 2018-04-05T15:19:55Z beach: shrdlu68: I think I am entitled to my perspective since I am the author of the specification. 2018-04-05T15:20:27Z shrdlu68: beach: Of course, I don't dispute that. 2018-04-05T15:21:26Z shrdlu68: beach: Do you have some examples of these unique cases? 2018-04-05T15:21:38Z beach: No. That's how unique they are. 2018-04-05T15:21:59Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T15:22:11Z beach: It wouldn't be a matter of something that somehow is impossible to do the "standard" way. 2018-04-05T15:22:30Z beach: Just that someone would be lazy enough to want to incorporate C code rather than writing the equivalent Common Lisp code. 2018-04-05T15:23:10Z shrdlu68: It's a Lisp OS, after all. 2018-04-05T15:23:17Z beach: Exactly. 2018-04-05T15:23:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:23:44Z shrdlu68: I think I get it now. It really is a Lisp OS. Not just an OS written in Lisp, but for running Lisp. 2018-04-05T15:23:54Z beach: Correct. 2018-04-05T15:24:02Z beach: I think that's in the introduction. 2018-04-05T15:24:02Z beach: 2018-04-05T15:24:20Z shrdlu68: Kinda need to stress it. 2018-04-05T15:24:34Z beaky joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:25:08Z beach: First sentence of the intro in fact: A Lisp Operating System (LispOS for short) is not just another operating system that happens to be written in Lisp... 2018-04-05T15:25:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:25:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:27:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:27:39Z shrdlu68: It's like writing a javascript OS, and some fella comes along with his Lisp code... 2018-04-05T15:28:13Z shrdlu68: "How do I run this?" 2018-04-05T15:28:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:29:00Z beach: shrdlu68: That situation is no different from running Lisp on the "C operating system" called Unix. 2018-04-05T15:29:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:30:11Z shrdlu68: I suppose. 2018-04-05T15:30:30Z beach: shrdlu68: It is a research project. I am fortunate not to have to care about things like that. It is a project where I attempt to show how much better things could be than what they are. If people don't want better things, there is not much I can do, and it won't say anything about the validity of the project. 2018-04-05T15:31:16Z shrdlu68: But not really. But Unix only needs machine instructions to run. 2018-04-05T15:31:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:31:28Z beach: Oh, no compiler? 2018-04-05T15:31:54Z shrdlu68: I can run an arbitrary binary. 2018-04-05T15:32:00Z beach: Sure, yes. 2018-04-05T15:32:16Z beach: And that's the reason for most of the security problems we are faced with today. 2018-04-05T15:32:26Z shrdlu68: It'll likely segfault, but the point is the system will be happy to exec it. 2018-04-05T15:32:47Z beach: Exactly, and that's the reason for most of the security problems we are faced with today. 2018-04-05T15:33:12Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:33:25Z beach: ... which in turn provoked absurdities such as ASLR. 2018-04-05T15:33:43Z beach: ... which apparently don't work anyway, and only create problems for application writers. 2018-04-05T15:34:13Z shrdlu68: The implication being an OS open to running anything is inherently insecure. 2018-04-05T15:34:16Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:34:55Z beach: Yes, which is why this Lisp OS will not allow that. 2018-04-05T15:35:42Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:36:00Z jmercouris: I disagree, ASLR is not an absurdity 2018-04-05T15:36:09Z jmercouris: just because people can make gadgets anyway doesn't invalidate ASLR 2018-04-05T15:36:59Z TMA: the security problems are that there is so much code in existence you cannot be expected to audit it before running it compounded with that the people do not behave nicely to each others 2018-04-05T15:36:59Z jmercouris: it is a good idea, though admittedely the implementation is lacking 2018-04-05T15:37:03Z loke: jmercouris: If your code can never arbitrarily access data by pointer, then it's not needed. 2018-04-05T15:37:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:37:28Z jmercouris: loke: Sure, but if someone elses code can, its still needed 2018-04-05T15:37:33Z epony: "If you find that you're spending almost all your time on theory, start turning some attention to practical things; it will improve your theories. If you find that you're spending almost all your time on practice, start turning some attention to theoretical things; it will improve your practice." 2018-04-05T15:37:46Z beach: jmercouris: You apparently have missed a few hours of discussion. 2018-04-05T15:38:00Z jmercouris: Yeah, I just skimmed a little bit above, if this conversation goes deeper and I missed a lot, sorry 2018-04-05T15:38:10Z loke: jmercouris: Whose code would that be? In Beach's OS, only the low level kernel code will have that capability (and even then, a very tiny bit of code since the OS itself is written in Lisp). 2018-04-05T15:38:11Z beach: jmercouris: The entire argument is that it is absurd because it fixes a problem that should have been fixed differently. 2018-04-05T15:38:23Z jmercouris: That I can agree with- kind of 2018-04-05T15:38:38Z jmercouris: if fixing it correctly means making a new OS, I think that is a cost very few are willing to bear 2018-04-05T15:38:39Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: The channel is logged, though. 2018-04-05T15:38:42Z jmercouris: I read the log 2018-04-05T15:38:45Z epony: I agree with beach, the problem should have been prevented instead of sorted that way. 2018-04-05T15:39:22Z jmercouris: loke: Not only low level code would have that ability, there are ways, especially if you have physical access to the hardware 2018-04-05T15:39:35Z beach: jmercouris: You apparently also missed my saying that this is a research project, so there is no real "cost" involved. 2018-04-05T15:40:02Z jmercouris: No, I understood, I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything 2018-04-05T15:40:20Z jmercouris: I understand the time/place of your project, and I'm fully in agreement with you 2018-04-05T15:40:22Z beach: jmercouris: And you missed that most code in the OS I am thinking of would not have physical access to the hardware. 2018-04-05T15:40:24Z jmercouris: I just don't think ASLR is ridiculous 2018-04-05T15:40:28Z loke: jmercouris: sure. you could shut the machine down and reboot Linux or something. I'm putting words in beach's mounth here, but I'm pretty sure the project does not intend to prevent that. 2018-04-05T15:40:31Z shrdlu68: beach: Careful, McCarthy initially considered LISP only research... 2018-04-05T15:40:45Z beach: shrdlu68: I promise to be careful. Thanks. :) 2018-04-05T15:41:13Z epony: Some alan kay advocated quick cheap prototyping for engineering problems.. 2018-04-05T15:41:38Z jcowan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T15:42:03Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:42:04Z jmercouris: loke: I didn't mean like that, I meant while the machine is running 2018-04-05T15:42:04Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:42:23Z beach: jmercouris: And you missed that most code in the OS I am thinking of would not have physical access to the hardware. 2018-04-05T15:42:34Z jmercouris: so what's the abstraction layer? 2018-04-05T15:42:45Z beach: jmercouris: Common Lisp. 2018-04-05T15:42:50Z jmercouris: how can you write an OS that does not interface with the hardware? 2018-04-05T15:42:57Z beach: Did I say that? 2018-04-05T15:43:03Z beach: I think I wrote "most". 2018-04-05T15:43:04Z jmercouris: I guess not 2018-04-05T15:43:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:43:42Z epony: jmercouris the machine is a machine code interpreter, how you give the machine the operands is irrelevant given the machine runs and not halts 2018-04-05T15:43:51Z loke: beach: Are you going to use some microkernel or something as foundational base, or will you be writing the lowest level code yourself? 2018-04-05T15:43:59Z jmercouris: epony: Not sure what you're trying to say here, can you please restate? 2018-04-05T15:44:28Z epony: no. 2018-04-05T15:44:31Z jmercouris: I imagine it will have to be a microkernel, it makes a lot of sense anyway with the message passing 2018-04-05T15:44:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:44:49Z jmercouris: the whole idea of dispatching invokations, feels a lot like lisp 2018-04-05T15:44:51Z epony: I can only remove words from the above sentence 2018-04-05T15:45:05Z beach: jmercouris: No, we already discussed that. No microkernel. 2018-04-05T15:45:13Z jmercouris: epony: I understand your sentence, I don't understand your meaning within the context of this discussion 2018-04-05T15:45:37Z jmercouris: interesting, no microkernel... so, a hybrid? 2018-04-05T15:45:44Z shrdlu68: beach: Isn't there a LispOS similar to what you're proposing already in existence? 2018-04-05T15:46:08Z shrdlu68: Similar to some extent, I suppose. 2018-04-05T15:46:16Z beach: shrdlu68: Not that I know. If you find one, I would like to know. 2018-04-05T15:46:27Z shrdlu68: I mean, all those historical Lisp OSes... 2018-04-05T15:46:30Z beach: shrdlu68: Mezzano is a Lisp OS, but I think it is very different. 2018-04-05T15:46:43Z beach: shrdlu68: Well, Genera had no security whatsoever. 2018-04-05T15:47:00Z jmercouris: I think Lisp OS were not as beach describes, just OS' with function calls and paired with hardware optimized for common lisp operations 2018-04-05T15:47:13Z jmercouris: s/function calls/system calls 2018-04-05T15:47:22Z beach: Genera wouldn't fly in today's hostile Internet environment. 2018-04-05T15:47:35Z shrdlu68: But it only ran Lisp code, right? 2018-04-05T15:47:45Z jmercouris: Ultimately no, it must run assembly 2018-04-05T15:47:48Z beach: In fact, it had a C compiler 2018-04-05T15:47:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:47:52Z epony: jmercouris I feel this is a beginner class in assembler. 2018-04-05T15:47:54Z Shinmera: beach: Have you read about capabilities in the context of security / permissions? 2018-04-05T15:47:59Z jcowan: One thing conspicuously missing from the protection scheme is any way to protect the user from themself. 2018-04-05T15:48:04Z loke: I wondering if Redox is trying to approach security in some similar way... (there are huge differences of cours,e but the fundamental idea that software should not be allowed to do the wrong thing seems similar) 2018-04-05T15:48:13Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, the Lisp OS pointers will be capabilities. 2018-04-05T15:48:19Z Shinmera: Great 2018-04-05T15:48:26Z jcowan: When everything is mutable and persistent, how are you to stop a brain fart from permanently ruining your system? 2018-04-05T15:48:36Z jmercouris: jcowan: restarts ;) 2018-04-05T15:48:53Z jcowan: You mean Lisp restarts, or machine restarts? The latter won't work. 2018-04-05T15:49:09Z jmercouris: I was joking firstly, but sure, you could write conditions for everything you are afraid of 2018-04-05T15:49:12Z beach: jcowan: That's a very good question. In the worst case, the global environment would have to be ditched. 2018-04-05T15:49:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:49:31Z jmercouris: you could still mess things up though, even with 2018-04-05T15:49:32Z beach: jcowan: I have not given enough thought to a system-wide undo. 2018-04-05T15:49:33Z shrdlu68: jcowan: Distribute with highly-available load-balancers ;) 2018-04-05T15:50:29Z beach: So here we go again. I suggest something that is way better than anything we have, but it is not accepted because I can't solve problems that no other operating system can solve today. 2018-04-05T15:50:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:51:04Z jcowan: Well, one of the things it loses is the ability to throw away a local world and start again, because there is only a global world. 2018-04-05T15:51:17Z beach: jcowan: Says who? 2018-04-05T15:51:18Z loke: beach: Hey, the more I think about your idea the more I like it. 2018-04-05T15:51:22Z jcowan: I think this can be solved by making the notion of worlds explicit. 2018-04-05T15:51:34Z beach: jcowan: I already did. 2018-04-05T15:51:55Z beach: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf 2018-04-05T15:51:56Z shrdlu68: Hmm, what about a Linux kernel where the init is a Lisp interpreter? 2018-04-05T15:52:10Z shrdlu68: s/kernel/system 2018-04-05T15:52:17Z jcowan: You make global Lisp environments explicit, but that's not the same as a whole world, which is more like a VM today. 2018-04-05T15:52:23Z beach: loke: Thanks. :) 2018-04-05T15:52:37Z jcowan: I like the idea too, which is why I am being hard on it. 2018-04-05T15:52:41Z epony: I would not consider arguments from other environments is a decision to not accept something better, but difficulty understanding the foundation. 2018-04-05T15:52:52Z epony: *as* 2018-04-05T15:52:58Z jcowan: Welll put, epony. 2018-04-05T15:53:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:53:12Z loke: beach: In fact, I can't waint until you have something that boots :-) 2018-04-05T15:53:28Z beach: Sure. I am just amused by this psychological phenomenon that I recently discovered. 2018-04-05T15:53:42Z beach: loke: I'll work harder. Promise. 2018-04-05T15:53:45Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: why would you want to do that? 2018-04-05T15:53:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T15:54:37Z loke: beach: :-) 2018-04-05T15:54:46Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: It seems to me that would essentially the same as beach's OS, only easier to implement. 2018-04-05T15:54:50Z jcowan: To modify a heavily entrenched system, you have to have something that is not only better at certain tasks, but better as a whole. Otherwise, it will always be cheaper to reform the existing system. The way of the revolutionary is very hard. 2018-04-05T15:55:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:55:24Z beach: One idea that I have, and that I plan to implement in Second Climacs is to have an implementation of the first-class global environment protocol that allows for incrementally updated environments. Then most things can be undone by discarding selective increments. 2018-04-05T15:55:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T15:55:38Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: But the system would have to be rebooted to patch the kernel. 2018-04-05T15:55:40Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: The outcome would be effectively the same, but the security considersations would be very different, you'd still have the Linux kernel running 2018-04-05T15:56:29Z beach: jcowan: I have absolutely no illusion that people would be willing to change their habits and ditch their existing systems. 2018-04-05T15:56:48Z shrdlu68: Yes. But the init (which we've replaced with a Lisp interpreter) would be the only thing interfacing with the kernel. 2018-04-05T15:57:03Z jcowan: I meant a revolution in thinking, not necessarily in doing (though that may follow) 2018-04-05T15:57:19Z beach: I see. 2018-04-05T15:57:27Z beach: Big "may" though. 2018-04-05T15:57:51Z jcowan: Of course. 2018-04-05T15:58:00Z beach: Though this kind of discussion is good. It allows me to explain my ideas. 2018-04-05T15:58:04Z jcowan: Consider 1830 or 1848. 2018-04-05T15:58:06Z loke: shrdlu68: Using Linux would be overkill though, since the lispos wouldn't need processes for example. You'll just need threads. 2018-04-05T15:58:12Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: the kernel itself is a massive security vulnerability, anyone who cares about security is NOT running linux 2018-04-05T15:58:35Z jmercouris: loke: yes, but using the Linux kernel would give you access to a wealth of drivers 2018-04-05T15:58:39Z loke: shrdlu68: So if you want to take an existing kernel, you'll be better off with L4 or something like that. 2018-04-05T15:58:43Z jcowan: Anyone who really cares about security has abandoned the use of computers altogether. 2018-04-05T15:58:54Z loke: jmercouris: Yes That is the one main benefit. 2018-04-05T15:58:57Z jmercouris: jcowan: anyone who cares about security is using openbsd 2018-04-05T15:59:09Z jcowan: Throw them all down a big hole in the ground and fill the hole with cement. Then they will truly be secure. 2018-04-05T15:59:18Z loke: jmercouris: I care about security and I'm not using Openbsd. I'm writing this from my Qubes OS laptop. 2018-04-05T15:59:28Z jmercouris: Qubes OS, that's a name I havn't heard in a while 2018-04-05T15:59:36Z loke: Qubes relies on Xen on the lowest level. 2018-04-05T15:59:46Z jmercouris: Yeah, I am familiar with it 2018-04-05T15:59:47Z loke: jmercouris: QUbes OS 4 was just released. 2018-04-05T15:59:58Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: But, in the system I propose, no one else is making syscalls except the Lisp interpreter. 2018-04-05T16:00:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:00:21Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: that's not the point, there are vulnerabilities within the kernel that do not require operations in userland, things that the kernel itself handles 2018-04-05T16:00:38Z jcowan: Scheme has global environments that are *almost* first class, though most Scheme programmers never give them a thought. 2018-04-05T16:00:51Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:01:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:02:21Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:02:23Z jcowan: The current big limitation is that there is no standardized way to create a novel mutable environment. 2018-04-05T16:02:32Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Any OS has to contend with those kinds of risks, though, even a Lisp OS. At least some of it will be implemented in assembly. 2018-04-05T16:03:15Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:04:34Z jmercouris: No doubt, there is no risk-free OS, I'm just pointing out that bringing in the Linux kernel brings a huge red target into a proejct 2018-04-05T16:04:54Z beach: shrdlu68: Which part would that be? 2018-04-05T16:04:57Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/MutableEnvironmentsCurtisCowan.md <-- proposal for mutable environments 2018-04-05T16:04:57Z jmercouris: "security through obscurity" is not an accepted practice, but it works pretty well, until it doesn't :P 2018-04-05T16:05:54Z little_lisper joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:06:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:07:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:07:37Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:08:22Z epony: jmercouris What is your current operating system? Do all operating systems have to be one and the same method, only slightly off in their implementation? 2018-04-05T16:09:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:09:22Z little_lisper: i want (read) to return nil if it does not gets any input. how do i do it? 2018-04-05T16:09:53Z jmercouris: epony: Why does it matter what my OS is? 2018-04-05T16:10:02Z jmercouris: I don't use any single OS 2018-04-05T16:10:28Z jackdaniel: little_lisper: (read (make-string-input-stream "") nil nil) 2018-04-05T16:10:29Z shrdlu68: beach: The scheduler, device drivers, etc. 2018-04-05T16:10:34Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:10:37Z jackdaniel: spec read 2018-04-05T16:10:37Z beach: shrdlu68: Absolutely not. 2018-04-05T16:10:43Z jackdaniel: clhs read 2018-04-05T16:10:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 2018-04-05T16:10:52Z jackdaniel: little_lisper: ↑ 2018-04-05T16:10:56Z beach: shrdlu68: What makes you think that? 2018-04-05T16:11:05Z jackdaniel: especially second and third argument 2018-04-05T16:11:44Z Aritheanie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T16:12:05Z Aritheanie joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:12:06Z jcowan: beach: I also read the Cleavir manual. I was surprised to find no primops that do allocation. How does that work? 2018-04-05T16:12:08Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2018-04-05T16:12:12Z epony: Not having the same title does not necessarily mean multiple operating systems. 2018-04-05T16:12:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:12:31Z beach: jcowan: Because they would not be inlined. It would be a function. 2018-04-05T16:12:31Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: there is nothing heretic with implementing device drivers with C - why CL would be any different? 2018-04-05T16:12:33Z epony: Let's try the word environment. 2018-04-05T16:12:39Z jackdaniel: Linux does it all over the place :) 2018-04-05T16:13:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:13:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:13:52Z saki joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:13:53Z beach: shrdlu68: I am seriously interested how you came to this conclusion, because you are not alone. And this "urban myth" is problematic to the entire Common Lisp community. 2018-04-05T16:13:55Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:14:23Z nsrahmad quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-05T16:14:32Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:14:45Z little_lisper: thanks jackdaniel 2018-04-05T16:15:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:15:45Z beach: jackdaniel: Did mean "inherent" rather than "heretic"? 2018-04-05T16:16:10Z jackdaniel: no, I meant heretic - it is not heresy to implement device drivers in languages not being assembler 2018-04-05T16:16:15Z jackdaniel: C is not assembler 2018-04-05T16:16:27Z beach: Ah, got it. 2018-04-05T16:16:47Z beach: little_lisper: I am not sure they understood what you meant by "not gets any input". You might need to explain that. 2018-04-05T16:16:59Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure how well such device drivers would play with GC (some have very tight time constraints) etc 2018-04-05T16:17:15Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I imagine the performance would be like a sack of potatoes 2018-04-05T16:17:30Z beach: It would be just fine. 2018-04-05T16:17:41Z Bike: sacks of potatoes are performant in their own way 2018-04-05T16:17:47Z jmercouris: I guess it really depends on the device 2018-04-05T16:17:52Z beach: And the GC. 2018-04-05T16:17:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:18:01Z jmercouris: I imagine something like a network driver would be fine, I can't imagine a graphical driver being that fast 2018-04-05T16:18:50Z jackdaniel: usually gfx drivers "just" program graphical cards 2018-04-05T16:18:50Z froggey: beach: you're developing a Lisp OS? 2018-04-05T16:19:00Z beach: froggey: Sort of. 2018-04-05T16:19:14Z beach: froggey: But I am doing it the other way around from your point of view. 2018-04-05T16:19:20Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: so all intense operations are not operating system responsibility 2018-04-05T16:19:23Z beach: froggey: Starting with the Common Lisp implementation. 2018-04-05T16:19:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:19:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I see, thank you for sharing that, I am not so familiar with driver implementation 2018-04-05T16:20:10Z jmercouris: s/I am not so familiar/I know effectively nothing 2018-04-05T16:20:33Z jackdaniel: that may be a good hint, that stating bold opinions about performance may be risky 2018-04-05T16:20:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:21:20Z jmercouris: Well, I know some, and I venture I know enough to know why drivers are usually not written in Scala or Python 2018-04-05T16:21:39Z jmercouris: I don't think it is some big coincidence 2018-04-05T16:21:53Z pierpa: And even if it wasn't all done in hardware nowadays, it was already done in software 30 years ago in the lisp machines 2018-04-05T16:21:55Z jackdaniel: usually they are written in the same language kernel is written 2018-04-05T16:21:55Z jcowan: Mostly because we have no AOT compilers for those languages. 2018-04-05T16:22:09Z jcowan: (to machine code, I mean) 2018-04-05T16:22:33Z jcowan: There would be no problem in writing a kernel in Ada, and in fact that is the kind of thing Ada was designed for (real-time, bare metal) 2018-04-05T16:22:57Z froggey: beach: as opposed to developing the low-level/runtime parts first? 2018-04-05T16:23:02Z beach: Yes. 2018-04-05T16:23:22Z beach: froggey: And I think we have very different objectives too. 2018-04-05T16:23:25Z fourier quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-05T16:23:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: but do they *have* to? 2018-04-05T16:23:52Z beach: froggey: Also, as opposed to making it run on bare metal early on. 2018-04-05T16:24:10Z froggey: probably. I don't really have any set objectives, I'm just doing things that seem interesting to me 2018-04-05T16:24:21Z beach: froggey: Very good plan. 2018-04-05T16:24:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:24:38Z LdBeth: jmercouris: as long as the final product is machine code, it’s okay to use any languages that could improve development efficiency 2018-04-05T16:24:38Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: in case of Linux - ostensibly yes, in case of Windows - definetely yes, in case of minix - if you mimic C abi you may write it in sbcl why not, other unixes - yes 2018-04-05T16:24:58Z beach: froggey: If you feel like it, you can read my specification. If not, that's fine too. 2018-04-05T16:24:59Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T16:25:14Z little_lisper: thanks to bring it up beach. i have a function which takes arbitary no of args. so i made a fn 'readlist' using read and cons. i want read to return nil if it does get any input i.e. no enter key press. i am a beginner 2018-04-05T16:25:16Z froggey: sure, link? 2018-04-05T16:25:22Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: and yet, why are there none in any other languages? 2018-04-05T16:25:34Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the question 2018-04-05T16:25:37Z jmercouris: I am likely to believe it is performance, that is often the reason people use C 2018-04-05T16:25:37Z beach: little_lisper: Yeah, that's not the question that was answered. 2018-04-05T16:25:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:26:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:26:08Z beach: froggey: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2018-04-05T16:26:30Z beach: Time for me to go cook dinner. I'll read the logs when I get back. 2018-04-05T16:27:14Z jackdaniel: well, if we talk about beliefs - I can't argue with what you believe in 2018-04-05T16:27:22Z jmercouris: I've been googling this throughout the course of this conversation, and the arguments are all over the map actually 2018-04-05T16:27:29Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:27:47Z jmercouris: some people say "because that's how it has always been", some say "it is fast", some say "because that is what the kernel is written in" 2018-04-05T16:27:51Z jackdaniel: arguments for cargo cult? or what? 2018-04-05T16:27:56Z froggey: thanks, I'll have a look 2018-04-05T16:28:01Z jmercouris: No, for writing device drivers in C 2018-04-05T16:28:12Z jackdaniel: Windows kernel is written in C++ afaik 2018-04-05T16:28:17Z jmercouris: I think the lack of a clear consensus means that there must be a multitude of reasons 2018-04-05T16:28:28Z jmercouris: anyways, I have to go to the grocery store, brb 2018-04-05T16:28:39Z little_lisper: (defun read-list () 2018-04-05T16:28:39Z little_lisper: (let ((n (read *standard-input* nil))) 2018-04-05T16:28:39Z little_lisper: (if (null n) 2018-04-05T16:28:39Z little_lisper: nil 2018-04-05T16:28:44Z little_lisper: (cons n (read-list))))) 2018-04-05T16:28:48Z jmercouris: little_lisper: please use a pastebin service 2018-04-05T16:28:48Z Shinmera: Oh boy. 2018-04-05T16:28:54Z LdBeth: jmercouris: it’s actually nothing to do with run time efficiency, it’s just because Unix is popular and so does C 2018-04-05T16:29:15Z little_lisper: sorry jmercouris. i ll from now onwards 2018-04-05T16:29:24Z jackdaniel: true, C was defined for the very purpose of writing Unix 2018-04-05T16:29:52Z LdBeth: Bye 2018-04-05T16:30:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:32:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:32:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:34:25Z _death: and unix was defined for the purpose of playing spacewar 2018-04-05T16:35:17Z stacksmith quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T16:35:17Z stacksmith1 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:35:59Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T16:36:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:36:49Z LdBeth: www 2018-04-05T16:37:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T16:37:38Z stacksmith1 is now known as stacksmith 2018-04-05T16:38:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:38:20Z froggey: jmercouris: in my experience, drivers in CL perform well enough. the biggest sticking point I've found is interaction between the GC & audio playback. if the audio driver doesn't refill the output buffer in time it causes stuttering 2018-04-05T16:40:01Z LdBeth: So, my plan is an assembler first, and a non-tradition GC subset of Lisp aims only for high performance, and then layers of Common Lisp for user space applications. 2018-04-05T16:40:03Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:41:00Z d3j joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:41:29Z semz: froggey: purely out of interest, what experience is that with CL drivers? 2018-04-05T16:41:34Z verisimilitude: The C language is used for operating systems because people don't know better and believe others who don't know better. 2018-04-05T16:42:01Z Xach: seemz: froggey wrote mezzano, which is a lisp os. perhaps that's what informs his perspective. 2018-04-05T16:42:03Z cmecca1 is now known as cmecca 2018-04-05T16:42:08Z cmecca quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T16:42:08Z cmecca joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:42:18Z semz: oh lol, i didn't know he's the author 2018-04-05T16:42:39Z little_lisper left #lisp 2018-04-05T16:42:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:42:52Z froggey: yes, that's it 2018-04-05T16:44:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:44:48Z LdBeth: Unix is a tragedy, people doesn’t know what they are doing and why 2018-04-05T16:45:46Z jackdaniel: maybe that's because I don't know better, but I find Unix philosophy (and implementaitons) decent and very usable 2018-04-05T16:45:57Z verisimilitude: The UNIX philosophy doesn't exist. 2018-04-05T16:46:07Z jackdaniel: but that's offtopic on our side :) 2018-04-05T16:46:10Z verisimilitude: It's ostensibly a brand name for simplicity. 2018-04-05T16:46:20Z verisimilitude: It's not simple, though, so it fails at that. 2018-04-05T16:46:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: the unix-haters handbook is pretty funny and written partly from lisp-machine users' point of view. 2018-04-05T16:46:57Z verisimilitude: You may as well claim that urinating follows the, say, jackdaniel philosophy; look at how popular and successful your philosophy is, jackdaniel. 2018-04-05T16:47:17Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks, I've read parts of it 2018-04-05T16:47:41Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: that's not very nice 2018-04-05T16:48:02Z jeosol: morning 2018-04-05T16:48:08Z LdBeth: And another part from a PDP-10 users’ perspective :F 2018-04-05T16:48:34Z LdBeth: Morning, jeosol 2018-04-05T16:48:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:49:13Z LdBeth: Feel free to grab a cup of coffee 2018-04-05T16:49:17Z jeosol: morning LdBeth, 2018-04-05T16:49:53Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T16:50:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:50:36Z jeosol: Anyone here running a CL application on AWS, if so how do you package things up there? docker? After power outage, I am thinking of starting move bits of my workflow to AWS or other options 2018-04-05T16:51:01Z jeosol: I tried installing SBCL, wine, etc, on an AMI instance, it was a pain doing this one by one 2018-04-05T16:51:31Z jackdaniel: jeosol: fpm for packaging, clon for binaries delivery and hand-written systemd scripts for daemoning 2018-04-05T16:51:34Z jeosol: thanks anyinfo appreciated 2018-04-05T16:51:50Z jeosol: ok, thanks jackdaniel 2018-04-05T16:52:09Z jeosol: after managing to install sbcl, i figured there as to be a better way of doing this. 2018-04-05T16:52:18Z verisimilitude: You dislike that I used your name for the example, jackdaniel? 2018-04-05T16:52:30Z jeosol: I would just want to package everything so that on new instance, setup will be easy 2018-04-05T16:53:44Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: I disliked you have used eristic 'argument', and yes, I disliked you have used my name in your 'example' 2018-04-05T16:54:17Z jeosol: jackdaniel: is fpm the same as Effing Package Management ? 2018-04-05T16:54:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:54:30Z jackdaniel: jeosol: possibly, I can't say 2018-04-05T16:54:38Z jackdaniel: never used epm 2018-04-05T16:55:28Z jeosol: ok, I searched google, and a fpm github showed up, no worries, i think he just titled his .README that 2018-04-05T16:55:29Z verisimilitude: I can be quite eristic when I want, jackdaniel; anyway, I'll avoid using your name, then. 2018-04-05T16:55:32Z jeosol: I will take a look 2018-04-05T16:55:44Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T16:56:10Z jmercouris: LdBeth: Unix is a tragedy? I'm not going to take the bait 2018-04-05T16:56:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T16:57:23Z jmercouris: froggey: interesting, so is GC the only issue? 2018-04-05T17:00:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:01:26Z LdBeth: jmercouris: you don’t have to take it seriously, because life itself is a tragedy 2018-04-05T17:01:36Z LdBeth: But, you do have to take it 2018-04-05T17:01:43Z ecraven: what's a good way to pretty-print lisp code into an epub or a black-and-white pdf for reading on an e-reader? 2018-04-05T17:02:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:03:51Z LdBeth: ecraven: I think pygments can do that 2018-04-05T17:03:55Z jackdaniel: ecraven: cl-pdf is raw but very useful for creating pdf 2018-04-05T17:04:00Z LdBeth: For ePub 2018-04-05T17:04:23Z ecraven: the main thing is somehow fontifying strings and stuff, otherwise a plain text file would suffice 2018-04-05T17:05:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:06:03Z froggey: jmercouris: for performance, and then only really for things with tight time-constraints like audio 2018-04-05T17:06:49Z sellout joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:06:54Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:07:03Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:07:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:08:34Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:09:00Z froggey: interrupts are another issue because the handlers run in a constrained environment (no allocation, no touching memory that might be paged out) 2018-04-05T17:09:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T17:09:32Z froggey: but this isn't a big deal because interrupt handler generally don't do much. usually they just acknowledge the interrupt on the hardware and wake up a worker thread to do the real work 2018-04-05T17:10:02Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:12:18Z drunkencoder quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:12:20Z cgay: You've prompted me to look over my collection of old unix haters quotes. Good stuff. 2018-04-05T17:12:22Z typose_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:13:04Z cgay: I'll just quote the shortest one here: "Unix, the 'Nam of operating systems." 2018-04-05T17:14:11Z Patternmaster quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:14:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:14:37Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:14:42Z epony: Different goals, tools, targets. It is not all the same. 2018-04-05T17:15:11Z epony: (regarding device drivers, I think earlier it was mentioned that the target is Common Lisp) 2018-04-05T17:16:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:17:01Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:20:42Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:21:29Z frgo: beach: I pulled the LispOS github repo. How do I create the Documentation? 2018-04-05T17:21:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:22:08Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-05T17:22:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:23:57Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:24:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:26:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:28:48Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T17:29:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:29:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:30:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:32:08Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:33:11Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:36:01Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T17:36:01Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-05T17:37:45Z LdBeth: frgo (IRC): I think you just need to get LaTeX setup and run make 2018-04-05T17:38:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T17:38:55Z frgo: LdBeth: Thanks - Installing LaTeX currently... 2018-04-05T17:43:57Z Karl_Dscc joined 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seconds) 2018-04-05T19:04:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:06:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:06:58Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:07:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T19:08:28Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:08:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:09:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:10:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:10:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:11:36Z _death: https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=symbolics&type= doesn't find it, so maybe before apr 1985 2018-04-05T19:12:07Z _death: does have "Symbolics killed the MIT AI lab; don't do business with them." in the changelog 2018-04-05T19:12:21Z dlowe: shouldn't you be able to see it in their repo? 2018-04-05T19:12:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:13:52Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:15:09Z Cymew quit 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Is it possible to have it return keywords instead? 2018-04-05T19:34:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:35:09Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:35:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:38:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:40:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:40:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:40:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:45:16Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:45:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:46:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:48:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:50:27Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:50:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:51:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:51:12Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:55:04Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2018-04-05T19:55:09Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/29TPYQP 2018-04-05T19:55:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:55:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-05T19:56:29Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T19:58:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:03:50Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:04:01Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:04:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:05:06Z on_ion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-05T20:06:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T20:07:22Z phoe: Which ironclad digest should I use for hashing passwords? I don't want to go for SHA1 since it smells insecure to me as of late. 2018-04-05T20:08:44Z phoe: The current bit of code I have is https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/754#754 - please bash the hell out of it if you see anything wrong with it. 2018-04-05T20:08:47Z rme: All the cool kids use bcrypt for that. I don't know if that's in ironclad. 2018-04-05T20:08:53Z phoe: rme: I can't find it. 2018-04-05T20:11:19Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell phoe look up crypto-shurtcuts 2018-04-05T20:11:19Z Colleen: phoe: Unknown archive "crypto-shurtcuts". 2018-04-05T20:11:24Z Shinmera: ech 2018-04-05T20:11:39Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks, looking at it now. 2018-04-05T20:12:14Z Shinmera: pbkdf2 and bcrypt are good choices. 2018-04-05T20:12:23Z phoe: Shinmera: there's no bcrypt in ironclad though. 2018-04-05T20:12:57Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-05T20:13:15Z Shinmera: but there is pbkdf2 2018-04-05T20:13:18Z phoe: yep 2018-04-05T20:20:05Z hjudt_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T20:20:10Z hjudt joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:20:21Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-05T20:25:44Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:31:04Z _death: it also has scrypt 2018-04-05T20:32:48Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T20:33:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-05T20:33:45Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T20:34:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-05T20:38:52Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:38:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T20:39:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-05T20:41:37Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Pretty cool. Is there a emacs style editor for McClim as the is in CLIM? 2018-04-05T22:50:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T22:51:06Z jcowan: I agree that doubles are less frequent, but I submit that is because Lisp defaults to single-float and single-float is typically IEEE 32. 2018-04-05T22:51:41Z Shinmera: Even if the read float type was double float I would still say that integers are far more common. 2018-04-05T22:53:02Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T22:53:49Z jcowan: Yes, certainly. I'm just wondering if there isn't suitable trickery for doing integer arithmetic without masking off the high tag. 2018-04-05T22:54:00Z jcowan: (I am not Ben Bitdiddler.) 2018-04-05T22:55:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T22:56:53Z Shinmera: I'm also not sure I like the idea that performing a bad float op that results in a NAN could suddenly produce something that is interpreted as something other than a double by the implementation. 2018-04-05T22:57:37Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T22:57:42Z jcowan: Only if it generates a signaling NaN, which AFAIK no CPUs do. 2018-04-05T22:59:02Z Shinmera: I would think the quiet NAN is exactly the problem, no? Since then you get a value back that is NAN and might have whatever in the remaining bits. 2018-04-05T22:59:23Z aeth: I think double-floats are less common than they could be in part because CL is not the best language for double-floats. 2018-04-05T22:59:29Z aeth: And most people are very multilingual. 2018-04-05T23:00:04Z aeth: Even so, double-floats will probably be increasingly common over time. 2018-04-05T23:00:51Z jcowan: Shinmera: In this scheme, quiet NaNs are doubles (whose value is the abstract NaN); signaling NaNs are pointers, fixnums, characters, or whatever. 2018-04-05T23:01:24Z jcowan: Chicken uses a low-bit 1 tag for fixnums (no nanboxing) and does not appear to suffer much performance loss for it. 2018-04-05T23:02:22Z Shinmera: So how do you catch if a double op produces a nan? Check manually after every double op? 2018-04-05T23:02:37Z jcowan: The assumption is that no double op will produce a signaling NaN 2018-04-05T23:02:52Z jcowan: this is certainly true of hardware operations, and you can make it true in software by construction. 2018-04-05T23:03:02Z Shinmera: Yeah but you, as a software man, would probably want to know when your ops suddenly produce nans 2018-04-05T23:03:19Z Shinmera: I really like that SBCL converts floating point signals into conditions. 2018-04-05T23:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:06:09Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:06:50Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T23:07:32Z jcowan: FP signals are unrelated to signaling NaNs. As far as I can tell, nobody uses the latter for anything. 2018-04-05T23:07:58Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:08:39Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-05T23:08:44Z Shinmera: I see 2018-04-05T23:09:05Z jcowan: The whole point of quiet NaNs is that it makes floating-point numbers into a monad 2018-04-05T23:09:31Z jcowan: a variant of Maybe in which Just x is a number and None is a quiet NaN 2018-04-05T23:11:04Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:11:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:11:31Z jcowan: (perhaps Either would be a better analogy, although it is not guaranteed that when you put a QNan through an arithmetic operation, you get the same QNan (in the sense of bits) back. 2018-04-05T23:11:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T23:12:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:12:33Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-05T23:13:19Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-05T23:14:27Z jcowan: "Unrelated" was too strong. Attempting to operate on an SNaN does indeed raise an FPE *provided* the processor supports that and the FPP is configured to raise SIGFPE (or equivalent) in that case. 2018-04-05T23:14:35Z jcowan: But typically it is not. 2018-04-05T23:14:38Z LdBeth: Younder: Climacs. 2018-04-05T23:14:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:16:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:16:05Z safe joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:16:15Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-05T23:16:27Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T23:17:56Z BlueRavenGT quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-05T23:18:14Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:19:22Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:21:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:21:58Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:21:59Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-05T23:22:13Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:23:01Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:23:01Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-05T23:23:01Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:23:39Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:24:14Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:25:33Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:25:59Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:26:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:27:29Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:27:46Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-05T23:28:01Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:29:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:29:44Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-05T23:34:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-05T23:34:21Z jcowan: Shinmera: So no, I don't always want eager detection of problems. Sometimes retrospective detection is the Right Thing, as an invalidity in one part of a complicated operation may not affect the rest of it. But I hasten to add that I am not really a floating-point programmer myself, and am simply repeating what I have been told. 2018-04-05T23:35:20Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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And they get up at... hmm... before 6 2018-04-06T02:20:30Z loke: 5:40? 2018-04-06T02:20:42Z loke: No wayt 2018-04-06T02:20:43Z beach: With age, people need less sleep. 2018-04-06T02:21:04Z loke: Really? I'm still waiting for that to happen :-) 2018-04-06T02:21:17Z loke: If the alarm doesn't ring, I sleep until 11. 2018-04-06T02:21:30Z beach: It's statistical. Individual differences are greater. 2018-04-06T02:21:38Z loke: Back when I was younger, I used to go to sleep at 3 and wake up at 7 2018-04-06T02:22:00Z loke: So I guess it's opposite for me. :-) 2018-04-06T02:22:22Z beach: You are different in many other respects too. :) 2018-04-06T02:23:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:23:45Z jcowan: beach: My experience (approaching 60) is that I don't *need* less sleep, I just *get* less sleep 2018-04-06T02:24:23Z beach: jcowan: That might be an orthogonal phenomenon, sure. 2018-04-06T02:24:46Z beach: jcowan: I have been contemplating an immediate float format that uses 62 bits or so. 2018-04-06T02:25:04Z jcowan: Did you see my message about nanboxing? It would make fixnum arithmetic a little more expensive but allow IEEE double floats to be immediately represented. 2018-04-06T02:25:13Z jcowan: (on 64-bit systems) 2018-04-06T02:25:24Z beach: I didn't understand the details. 2018-04-06T02:26:15Z Bike: basically you have all values be double float NaNs instead of doing normal tagging. 2018-04-06T02:26:23Z beach: Oh. 2018-04-06T02:26:33Z Bike: or in addition to normal tagging, i guess. 2018-04-06T02:26:33Z jcowan: The idea is to hide a 48-bit pointer (and all nested spaces such as fixnums etc.) within the 2^52 bits of quiet NaNs 2018-04-06T02:26:54Z jcowan: That limits the fixnum range somewhat 2018-04-06T02:27:49Z beach: I'll consider it. 2018-04-06T02:28:11Z jcowan: And in turn to make IEEE double-floats the Lisp single float format 2018-04-06T02:28:24Z beach: Yes, I think I get it. 2018-04-06T02:28:53Z Bike: I'm not sure I understand that part. like, why bother 2018-04-06T02:28:57Z Bike: you want doubles to be quads? 2018-04-06T02:29:01Z beach: I would have to consider the cost of type checking and fixnum arithmetic. 2018-04-06T02:29:13Z jcowan: No, single float would be the same as double float 2018-04-06T02:29:21Z jcowan: short float would be IEEE 32-bit float 2018-04-06T02:30:20Z beach: Bike: All non-NaN IEEE double floats are immediates. 2018-04-06T02:30:21Z beach: Bike: The NaN space encodes all other data. 2018-04-06T02:30:21Z Bike: I mean, I don't understand making IEEE doubles being lisp single-float. 2018-04-06T02:30:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:30:22Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T02:30:46Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:30:49Z Bike: why? 2018-04-06T02:30:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:31:01Z jcowan: Because single-float is the default Lisp format 2018-04-06T02:31:20Z Bike: oh. 2018-04-06T02:34:29Z jcowan: it's for good reason that almost all languages now default to (IEEE) doubles. 2018-04-06T02:34:31Z beach: jcowan: Current tagging schemes make fixnum addition and subtraction into a single instruction. 2018-04-06T02:34:52Z beach: I would need to understand how that cost would change. 2018-04-06T02:34:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:35:22Z jcowan: Unfortunately I can't help you with that; I was last concerned with assembly language in PDP-11 days. 2018-04-06T02:35:55Z beach: I fear NaN boxing would make fixnum arithmetic prohibitively expensive. 2018-04-06T02:36:09Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:36:38Z Bike: not that i'm not also concerned, but i do wonder. the way sicl does fixnum arithemtic now it always involves a branch anyway 2018-04-06T02:37:03Z beach: That's because of the overflow test. 2018-04-06T02:37:21Z beach: Can't do without that I would think. 2018-04-06T02:37:38Z Bike: and i mean, that'll probably be slower than a mere arithmetic operation like masking, right? 2018-04-06T02:38:09Z beach: Sure, if no overflow is possible, things are faster. 2018-04-06T02:38:26Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T02:38:32Z beach: But if you want to do correct Common Lisp arithmetic, you have to test for overflow. 2018-04-06T02:38:42Z beach: ... unless you can prove it won't happen, of course. 2018-04-06T02:39:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:39:55Z Bike: What I'm saying is that the additional cost from the nanboxing may be tiny compared to the cost of the overflow check, so using nanboxing might not be so bad. 2018-04-06T02:40:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:40:23Z beach: Wait, am I missing something then? 2018-04-06T02:40:50Z Bike: I'm not talking about whether the overflow check is required. 2018-04-06T02:40:59Z beach: Oh. 2018-04-06T02:41:23Z Bike: I'm saying, if the overflow check is in there, it seems like it would be more expensive than the additional cost due to nanboxing. 2018-04-06T02:41:43Z beach: I am confused. 2018-04-06T02:42:26Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:43:59Z beach: Bike: How would fixnum arithmetic be performed with NaN boxing? 2018-04-06T02:44:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:45:25Z jcowan: Carefully. :-) 2018-04-06T02:46:20Z Bike: I think you would have the exponent bits all be 1 for the NaN, so the fixnum is in the low 52 bits, maybe with the low two tag. For unsigned fixnums you could machine add them, and then check... some bit for overflow, and then maybe mask it so it's still a proper NaN. 2018-04-06T02:46:44Z jcowan: Just so 2018-04-06T02:46:58Z beach: Bike: And how is the overflow detected? 2018-04-06T02:47:20Z sendai___ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:47:39Z Bike: Well... let's say the highest bit is still sign. Then if there's an overflow, it will carry over into the exponent and then into the sign, so maybe it will trip the machine overflow flag normally. 2018-04-06T02:47:52Z Bike: I'm not actually sure when the machine overflow flag is tripped 2018-04-06T02:48:16Z beach: When the result of the addition/subtraction can not be represented in 64 bits. 2018-04-06T02:48:32Z Bike: you'd only have like 48 bits 2018-04-06T02:48:44Z beach: So if the upper bits are 0 (not counting the sign) then the overflow would never be tripped. 2018-04-06T02:49:03Z Bike: but the upper bits are 1 because that's what makes it a NaN. 2018-04-06T02:49:03Z beach: So you would have to test for overflow yourself. 2018-04-06T02:49:14Z beach: Oh, sorry. 2018-04-06T02:49:18Z beach: I see. 2018-04-06T02:49:29Z Bike: i'm new to this too, honestly. i'd have to look up a reference that probably exists. 2018-04-06T02:49:39Z Bike: i mean i first heard of this idea at least a year ago, but i didn't look into it 2018-04-06T02:49:41Z beach: But then, the representation for positive fixnums is wrong. 2018-04-06T02:49:52Z Bike: Wrong? 2018-04-06T02:50:05Z beach: There would be 1s where there should be 0s. 2018-04-06T02:50:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:50:30Z beach: I'll look into it. 2018-04-06T02:50:33Z rme: Luajit (and I assume its fork raptorjit) uses a NaN-tagging scheme, IIRC. 2018-04-06T02:51:00Z jcowan: And several JavaScript engines (which do not have fixnums) 2018-04-06T02:51:02Z verisimilitude: This is suggesting implementing FIXNUMs as floats within the safe range? 2018-04-06T02:51:17Z Bike: everything as NaNs, including fixnums. 2018-04-06T02:51:22Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:51:29Z Bike: well. everything except double floats. 2018-04-06T02:51:31Z verisimilitude: Wouldn't it be more pleasant and more efficient to implement integers seperately? 2018-04-06T02:51:40Z Bike: separately? 2018-04-06T02:51:44Z rme: Oh, right, I can see how that might fit well with JavaScript. 2018-04-06T02:51:54Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:51:56Z verisimilitude: That is, tell the machine to use integer instructions when only integers are involved. 2018-04-06T02:51:59Z Bike: yeah js only has doubles anyway so they don't care about integers 2018-04-06T02:51:59Z beach: verisimilitude: You can't do it separately if you want every Lisp object to be a word. 2018-04-06T02:52:07Z verisimilitude: Explain. 2018-04-06T02:52:10Z rme: I'm kind of willfully ignorant of JavaScript, I have to admit. 2018-04-06T02:52:15Z Bike: the idea is allowing doubles to be immediates 2018-04-06T02:52:16Z verisimilitude: I don't currently see a reason why you couldn't. 2018-04-06T02:52:32Z Bike: you can't use the low bits as tag or anything, doubles fill the whole 64 bits 2018-04-06T02:52:48Z beach: verisimilitude: Common Lisp is dynamically typed. 2018-04-06T02:52:54Z verisimilitude: No, I understand. 2018-04-06T02:53:02Z verisimilitude: See, what I'd do is simply limit the precision of floats until it was convenient. 2018-04-06T02:53:10Z jcowan: Then you can't use the hardware 2018-04-06T02:53:21Z beach: verisimilitude: That's a really bad idea. 2018-04-06T02:53:28Z jcowan: It's been tried, but just truncating bits for a tag upsets the works 2018-04-06T02:53:31Z Bike: single floats kind of suck 2018-04-06T02:53:53Z verisimilitude: I very rarely ever use floats in Common Lisp, so I'm biased in that respect. 2018-04-06T02:53:57Z beach: verisimilitude: I mean, yes, you can do that, but then you would have your own float format. 2018-04-06T02:54:13Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-06T02:54:19Z verisimilitude: So, that's always an option. 2018-04-06T02:54:22Z Bike: with no machine arithmetic 2018-04-06T02:54:25Z rme: The good thing about single floats is that it's pretty easy to arrange to make them be iimmediate data on a 64-bit Lisp. 2018-04-06T02:54:26Z beach: verisimilitude: The current suggestion is very different. 2018-04-06T02:54:35Z jcowan: the whole point of inexact numbers is performance 2018-04-06T02:54:45Z verisimilitude: The current suggestion seems to be to do what JavaScript implementations do, with careful checking. 2018-04-06T02:54:45Z rme: But otherwise, yeah, they're kind of lacking. 2018-04-06T02:55:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T02:56:09Z jcowan: With machine performance *and* no boxing *and* decent precision, floats might be more popular 2018-04-06T02:56:45Z sendai___ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-06T02:56:46Z Bike: i mean the other possibility is your compiler's good enough to keep doubles unboxed 2018-04-06T02:56:53Z Bike: though you still have problems at function boundaries 2018-04-06T02:57:06Z beach: My current thinking is that it is rare to do double-float arithmetic on values that are passed as arguments and return values. With so called "aggressive" inlining, my guess is that most such arithmetic would be on arrays or on unboxed lexical variables. 2018-04-06T02:57:08Z Bike: coercing to T [cost 13] 2018-04-06T02:57:21Z jcowan: Right, which is why V8 does not do nanboxing, though the other JS engines do 2018-04-06T02:57:29Z jcowan: it has excellent type inference 2018-04-06T02:57:36Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:58:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T02:58:32Z beach: jcowan: Perhaps JavaScript does not have specialized arrays? 2018-04-06T02:59:11Z jcowan: It does now, I believe, but only recently 2018-04-06T02:59:52Z beach: I am asking because that would change the data for a decision about encoding. 2018-04-06T03:00:31Z beach: Like I said, I think most double-float arithmetic in Common Lisp would be on arrays specialized to double float and on unboxed lexical variables. 2018-04-06T03:00:33Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:00:54Z jcowan: That is the Scheme viewpoint, although not all compilers can do unboxing 2018-04-06T03:01:00Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T03:01:03Z beach: Ours can. 2018-04-06T03:01:24Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:01:26Z jcowan: and therefore their float performance sucks 2018-04-06T03:01:34Z beach: I am thinking operations on images and sound, FFT, etc. 2018-04-06T03:02:03Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:03:09Z beach: Anyway, since all of SICL is implemented in Common Lisp, the exact representation of things is visible in a very small number of places, I don't think this is a decision that has to be made a priori. 2018-04-06T03:03:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:03:34Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:03:42Z jcowan: Indeed. 2018-04-06T03:04:46Z beach: We do many of our optimizations on HIR which is representation neutral. 2018-04-06T03:05:11Z beach: HIR is also where boxing/unboxing is explicit. 2018-04-06T03:06:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:06:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:07:34Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-06T03:08:02Z beach: In fact, one can even imagine several SICL variants. One could be optimized for double-float arithmetic and another for fixnum arithmetic. 2018-04-06T03:08:43Z beach: Such a thing would be much harder with a system that has representation information spread all over the code base. 2018-04-06T03:10:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:14:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:16:36Z azimut quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-06T03:16:59Z LdBeth: Continues working on x64 assembler 2018-04-06T03:18:07Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:18:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:19:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T03:19:48Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:20:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:20:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:24:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:25:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:29:04Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:30:09Z azimut quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-06T03:30:30Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:31:06Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:33:51Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T03:40:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:40:55Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T03:43:51Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:43:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:45:36Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:46:14Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-06T03:47:35Z beach: LdBeth: Tell us your plan again? 2018-04-06T03:48:40Z beach: LdBeth: Why would start at such a low level, and why would you build a non-GC system first? 2018-04-06T03:51:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:52:09Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T03:52:28Z verisimilitude: You're also working on an implementation, LdBeth? 2018-04-06T03:55:22Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:56:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T03:57:06Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:01:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:01:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:03:23Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T04:05:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:05:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:07:27Z nika quit 2018-04-06T04:07:35Z epony: What do you mean, "assembler" and "implementation"? 2018-04-06T04:08:28Z verisimilitude: I meant a Common Lisp implementation, if that was directed towards me. 2018-04-06T04:08:29Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-06T04:09:55Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T04:10:00Z epony: Train of thought has halted. 2018-04-06T04:10:52Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T04:10:58Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:11:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:15:54Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:15:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:19:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:19:42Z guicho joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:21:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:21:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:23:19Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T04:24:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:26:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:27:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:29:05Z beach: epony: LdBeth wrote this: So, my plan is an assembler first, and a non-tradition GC subset of Lisp aims only for high performance, and then layers of Common Lisp for user space applications. 2018-04-06T04:29:26Z beach: epony: And I am wondering what that means in greater detail. 2018-04-06T04:29:52Z epony: yes 2018-04-06T04:31:21Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:31:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:32:00Z beach: epony: I am worried that LdBeth is planning yet another implementation that is built up from some lower-level code. I have seen how writing such an implementation is very painful, and it results in code that is not very maintainable. 2018-04-06T04:32:38Z beach: epony: I am particularly worried, because there seems to be widespread belief that this is the only way to create a Common Lisp implementation. 2018-04-06T04:33:02Z epony: I think I understand why you are concerned, beach 2018-04-06T04:33:56Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:34:02Z beach: Good. 2018-04-06T04:34:18Z epony: I would qualify that down-up approach an exercise in pre-processors for assembler though, with lisp driven something above it. 2018-04-06T04:35:58Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:36:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:36:15Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:36:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:36:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:36:58Z beach: Well, here is why I am worried: At some point, Common Lisp code has to be evaluated. That requires an interpreter or a compiler. A compiler can not be reasonably written in anything other than Common Lisp. So the bottom-up approach seems to call for an interpreter. But then, as we know, interpreters are slow. So then a compiler is needed anyway. And now you have two evaluators. 2018-04-06T04:37:30Z epony: It will be interesting to me for the sake of curiosity if this has any practical realisation, or it is a plan that may be difficult to follow up as you explain. 2018-04-06T04:38:26Z beach: epony: what is "this" in "this has any practical realisation"? 2018-04-06T04:38:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:38:43Z verisimilitude: I'm inclined to disagree, beach. 2018-04-06T04:38:45Z epony: The low level approach 2018-04-06T04:38:51Z beach: verisimilitude: Yes, of course. 2018-04-06T04:39:19Z verisimilitude: Wouldn't it be fair to write that only the special operators and some other considerations need be treated specially and everything else to be compiled could be treated in a more general matter? 2018-04-06T04:39:45Z verisimilitude: It's not hard to imagine how to compile nested function calls to machine code. 2018-04-06T04:39:54Z beach: Plus, the bottom-up approach requires a lot of the code to be written in a subset of Common Lisp. Then, the maintainer has to keep track of exactly what subset is allowed in every situation. While it may be possible to do that for someone who is writing the system from scratch, it becomes increasingly hard over time. 2018-04-06T04:39:55Z epony: beach Can it have both a compiler and an interpreter? 2018-04-06T04:40:20Z beach: epony: Sure it can. But now you have two evaluators to maintain. So more maintenance. 2018-04-06T04:40:29Z epony: The subset is a different language then, as it will need translation (re-evaluation). 2018-04-06T04:40:30Z beach: ... which is one of the problems with this approach. 2018-04-06T04:41:35Z verisimilitude: Now, I've been intending to compile a list of Common Lisp subsets that would be treated like this, in varying orders of dependence and whatnot, as one of the first steps towards my implementation; when I do, would you want me to point the article out to you, beach? 2018-04-06T04:42:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:42:12Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:42:31Z beach: verisimilitude: No thanks. I have already decided that I am not willing to work in a subset of Common Lisp which is why SICL is built the way it is. 2018-04-06T04:42:33Z LdBeth: beach: I considered use a subset of languages for system programming rather than a full impl of CL, mainly to avoid GC on real time execution. 2018-04-06T04:42:37Z verisimilitude: I'd put FORMAT and FORMATTER and LOOP into their own packages. 2018-04-06T04:42:46Z verisimilitude: Alright, then. 2018-04-06T04:43:00Z epony: I think the down-up approach is applicable to low level languages, as they have no high level abstractions (which they can do as extensions e.g. libraries). 2018-04-06T04:43:18Z beach: LdBeth: I assume you know there are real-time GCs, right? 2018-04-06T04:43:48Z verisimilitude: It's not out of place to think of Common Lisp as an abstract language that is still capable of behaving low level. 2018-04-06T04:44:34Z beach: verisimilitude: How do you plan to evaluate the first Common Lisp code that needs to be evaluated? 2018-04-06T04:44:44Z beach: Do you have an interpreter written in a lower-level language? 2018-04-06T04:45:20Z verisimilitude: I'd intend to take the compiler only approach. 2018-04-06T04:45:24Z epony: Now, question is GC the capability that limits applicability to virtualised machines or is it a prerequisite for these. 2018-04-06T04:45:33Z onion joined #lisp 2018-04-06T04:45:34Z beach: verisimilitude: So you write the compiler in a subset of Common Lisp? 2018-04-06T04:45:42Z verisimilitude: I've not yet compiled the precise subsets. 2018-04-06T04:45:56Z LdBeth: beach: yes, I read that paper about real time programming in Lisp. But a parallel language may also gives benefits such as static type. 2018-04-06T04:45:56Z verisimilitude: If, by the compiler, you mean what turns finalized code into machine code, then perhaps. 2018-04-06T04:46:10Z beach: verisimilitude: Good luck with that. 2018-04-06T04:46:18Z verisimilitude: I'm inclined to believe it would be easier to write it as machine code, at that level of it, though. 2018-04-06T04:46:43Z beach: Write a Common Lisp compiler in machine code? You have got to be kidding. 2018-04-06T04:46:47Z verisimilitude: Thank you. 2018-04-06T04:46:51Z verisimilitude: You misunderstand. 2018-04-06T04:46:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:47:15Z verisimilitude: I mean the final step that traverses the processed list and writes the actual machine code. 2018-04-06T04:47:29Z beach: verisimilitude: You are not answering my question. 2018-04-06T04:47:42Z verisimilitude: The MACROEXPANDer, optimizer, and other higher mechanisms would be written in a subset of Common Lisp. 2018-04-06T04:47:58Z beach: verisimilitude: The lowest level Common Lisp code that is going to execute on top of the lowest level non Common Lisp, how will it be executed? 2018-04-06T04:48:06Z epony: Why would a CL compiler be possible only in CL? 2018-04-06T04:48:19Z onion is now known as on_ion 2018-04-06T04:48:30Z verisimilitude: It would be compiled and jumped to, beach. 2018-04-06T04:48:47Z beach: verisimilitude: What does the compiler look like that would compile it? 2018-04-06T04:49:02Z beach: epony: It is the only reasonable choice. 2018-04-06T04:49:10Z epony: beach I see. 2018-04-06T04:49:28Z beach: epony: Think it through and you will see. 2018-04-06T04:49:33Z verisimilitude: Before we continue, beach, I do want to point out that I've been giving far more thought to the subsets and the calling convention and other details, so I may not yet have fully consistent ideas of this particular aspect of my planned implementation. 2018-04-06T04:49:36Z beach: epony: Think EVAL-WHEN. 2018-04-06T04:49:45Z LdBeth: epony: you might see Haskell, Go, Rust, Ocaml get a lot of benefits from bootstraping 2018-04-06T04:49:54Z epony: I'm asking for the sake of the conversation and ideas presented. 2018-04-06T04:50:10Z beach: verisimilitude: I suspect that is true. Yet that is THE CRUCIAL consideration. 2018-04-06T04:50:28Z verisimilitude: With that written, the compiler only needs to be able to compile special operators and functions. 2018-04-06T04:51:11Z beach: verisimilitude: No macros? 2018-04-06T04:51:11Z verisimilitude: Getting to that point requires more Common Lisp, to MACROEXPAND and whatnot, but it boils down all the same. 2018-04-06T04:51:23Z LdBeth: verisimilitude: I think what you mean is DSLs for extending CL, such as pattern matching syntax? 2018-04-06T04:52:21Z verisimilitude: When I used ``compiler'' in my second to last message, I meant the lowest part of the compiler that only processed what has already been processed by the higher parts of the compiler, which would need Common Lisp. 2018-04-06T04:52:23Z beach: verisimilitude: I suggest you think hard about how this thing will be bootstrapped. Then you write that down. Then I will read it and give you feedback. 2018-04-06T04:53:39Z verisimilitude: Most of the COMMON-LISP package is easily convenience functions; it's what's not that would need to be implemented in machine code. 2018-04-06T04:53:40Z epony: I suspect the goal is a machine that runs to fulfill the features and capabilities of the language, so a subset is in fact a different language in that sense is a pre-processor for low level languages. 2018-04-06T04:54:39Z beach: verisimilitude: It is not possible for me to glue together the pieces of information you are giving into a coherent whole. I would have to look at a complete description of the bootstrapping process. 2018-04-06T04:55:23Z beach: epony: But why on earth would one subject oneself to the pain of not using things like CLOS? 2018-04-06T04:55:42Z epony: I don't have that answer. 2018-04-06T04:55:50Z verisimilitude: You see, beach, I'm particularly interested in optimizing for space, which is what I would use to differentiate my implementation; I've enjoyed considering a Common Lisp implementation in which the entirety of the COMMON-LISP package is written in a different language that can be made very small. However, this would be bothersome, and so implementing enough of the language to implement the rest and working on an efficient compiler for 2018-04-06T04:55:50Z verisimilitude: that rest is the intent. 2018-04-06T04:56:27Z epony: I'm interested in a machine that has the features of LISP, and this is why I am here. 2018-04-06T04:56:39Z verisimilitude: As an example, beach, and I'm thinking a RISC machine such as MIPS, there's no reason NULL shouldn't boil down to just two instructions, or eight bytes. 2018-04-06T04:57:56Z beach: verisimilitude: I'll comment further when I see your technique for bootstrapping this thing. I have given bootstrapping a lot of thought, and I could not possibly build a Common Lisp system this way. It would be too painful for me, and I don't enough remaining life expectancy to make it work. 2018-04-06T04:57:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T04:58:24Z d4ryus1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-06T04:58:43Z verisimilitude: Well, I look forward to showing you my hard work, when it's in a state for showing, beach. 2018-04-06T04:58:52Z verisimilitude: Good luck with your SICL. 2018-04-06T04:58:57Z beach: Thanks. 2018-04-06T04:59:14Z beach: verisimilitude: The Cleavir part of SICL is already used for the main compiler of Clasp. 2018-04-06T04:59:17Z verisimilitude: Would you care to read the two instructions I believe NULL necessitates, before moving to a different topic? 2018-04-06T04:59:39Z beach: verisimilitude: NULL is a non-issue. 2018-04-06T04:59:52Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:00:23Z verisimilitude: The SBCL NULL is 30 bytes on my machine. 2018-04-06T05:00:32Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T05:00:32Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T05:00:49Z beach: SBCL doesn't do it very well. But NULL is not tested for very often. 2018-04-06T05:00:49Z verisimilitude: But, alright. 2018-04-06T05:02:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:02:13Z d4ryus quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-06T05:02:14Z beach: Why would you build an entire implementation around a test that is almost never performed? 2018-04-06T05:03:24Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:03:45Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:04:23Z beach: By the way, I think in SBCL, NULL is just a comparison with a constant. 2018-04-06T05:04:36Z beach: I may be wrong, but that was my impression. 2018-04-06T05:04:48Z epony: That would be fruitful to rewrite in low level language directly and spawn a number of such primitives as programs? 2018-04-06T05:05:00Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:06:01Z beach: epony: It may be too early in the morning for me, but I am missing the context of your utterances. What is "That" in "That would be fruitful"? 2018-04-06T05:06:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:08:13Z LdBeth: epony: low level can still be achieved with high abstraction. 2018-04-06T05:09:51Z verisimilitude: I'm not, beach; it was just an example. 2018-04-06T05:11:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:12:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:13:51Z epony: I think the bottom-up approach ends up in a different family of languages, and the choice of example was suited for them. 2018-04-06T05:17:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:20:41Z beach: verisimilitude: Fine. But again, it would be great to see a more detailed des corruption of your bootstrapping stages. That way I can give you feedback. 2018-04-06T05:21:11Z dmiles is now known as dmiles[m 2018-04-06T05:21:13Z dmiles[m is now known as dmiles 2018-04-06T05:21:42Z GreaseMonkey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:22:05Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:22:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:22:42Z beach: "des corruption"??? 2018-04-06T05:22:59Z beach: "description" of course. Must have been flyspell correction. 2018-04-06T05:23:05Z beach: Sorry about that. 2018-04-06T05:23:42Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:23:49Z nmajo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T05:24:07Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:24:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:24:52Z beach: So my point is: If someone wants to write a Common Lisp system, presumably, that person likes Common Lisp as a language (why write such a system otherwise?). 2018-04-06T05:25:30Z beach: Then, why would that person inflict pain on himself or herself by writing that system in some other language? 2018-04-06T05:26:01Z beach: And why would that person add to the pain by not being able to use wonderful tools such as CLOS to write most of the system. 2018-04-06T05:26:44Z beach: Especially since, by using this technique, the person would then also create much more code, and code that is much more difficult to maintain. 2018-04-06T05:27:10Z rme: Ils sont fous, ces Romains. 2018-04-06T05:27:21Z beach: Heh, indeed. 2018-04-06T05:27:33Z beach: rme: You see my point, right? 2018-04-06T05:27:48Z verisimilitude: Well, beach, part of the reason I'd write a Common Lisp implementation in the first place is to demonstrate my tool used in part to write it. 2018-04-06T05:28:49Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:29:05Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:29:19Z beach: verisimilitude: So in fact, the Common Lisp aspect of the thing not that important? 2018-04-06T05:29:42Z verisimilitude: It's important; I'm simply giving further context. 2018-04-06T05:29:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:29:52Z verisimilitude: I'm greatly interested by a small Common Lisp implementation. 2018-04-06T05:29:56Z rme: I do see your point, beach. I think it is a good one. 2018-04-06T05:30:13Z verisimilitude: I figure, beach, that a full Common Lisp could easily fit within half a megabyte, and really far less. 2018-04-06T05:30:18Z beach: rme: Thanks. I also realize it is easier said than done. 2018-04-06T05:30:39Z beach: verisimilitude: Including a compiler? The system would not be very fast then. 2018-04-06T05:30:51Z verisimilitude: Yes; speed is explicitly not a concern. 2018-04-06T05:31:06Z verisimilitude: I seek to optimize in ways that lead space to O(1), at the cost of speed, in fact. 2018-04-06T05:31:33Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:31:51Z verisimilitude: As an example, it's fair to write that a package contains more symbols than it exports, in general. 2018-04-06T05:32:28Z rme: Back in the late 80's, a bunch of my former coworkers and colleagues worked at a tiny software company called Coral Software. They made a (CLTL1) Common Lisp that ran on a 1MB Macintosh Plus, and they worked really hard to get it that small. 2018-04-06T05:32:37Z verisimilitude: So, rather than having a list containing every symbol in that package, why not only maintain the export list, use list, and leave what remains in a global symbol list or table. You save space, that way, since every symbol has a home package anyway. 2018-04-06T05:32:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:32:50Z epony: A quick search of bootstrap lisp shows this https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp 2018-04-06T05:33:13Z rme: They wrote a lot of 68000 assembly. 2018-04-06T05:33:24Z verisimilitude: If you want to DO-SYMBOLS, simply loop through the entire symbol storage, only using what is valid. 2018-04-06T05:33:31Z verisimilitude: That's bad for speed, but excellent for space. 2018-04-06T05:34:24Z verisimilitude: If you omit debugging information and strings, I figure, perhaps, a Common Lisp could reach 128K or 256K, easily. 2018-04-06T05:35:08Z verisimilitude: Now, there are ways to cheat, by using dummy functionality the standard technically allows, but that would be just that, cheating. 2018-04-06T05:37:21Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:37:33Z runejuhl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:37:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:38:13Z verisimilitude: (let ((n 0)) (do-external-symbols (s 'cl n) (if (fboundp s) (incf n)))) 2018-04-06T05:38:13Z verisimilitude: 752 2018-04-06T05:38:29Z verisimilitude: I figure, even if each function consumed a kilobyte, that would still be less than a megabyte. 2018-04-06T05:38:46Z verisimilitude: I then figure that the vast majority of the functions could fit in far less than a kilobyte. 2018-04-06T05:40:27Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:41:03Z verisimilitude: Being careful, my numbers seem perfectly reasonable to me. 2018-04-06T05:43:43Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:44:06Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T05:46:57Z verisimilitude: Would you write any language implementation in itself, beach, or would you recognize that a language isn't necessarily best suited to describe itself, in addition to efficiently? Is this opinion solely towards Lisps? 2018-04-06T05:47:25Z beach: rme: Impressive. So for a full ANSI that would be extremely hard. 2018-04-06T05:47:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:47:56Z beach: epony: BOCL is partly meant as a provocation. 2018-04-06T05:48:48Z beach: verisimilitude: I don't think your package idea would be conforming. 2018-04-06T05:48:53Z beach: But maybe you don't care. 2018-04-06T05:50:03Z verisimilitude: I've not yet made certain, beach. 2018-04-06T05:50:22Z verisimilitude: I'll check now. 2018-04-06T05:51:35Z beach: What would (symbol-package 'some-existing-package::new-symbol) return, for instance? 2018-04-06T05:51:40Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:51:46Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T05:52:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:52:36Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:52:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:54:12Z verisimilitude: That would be SOME-EXISTING-PACKAGE. 2018-04-06T05:55:10Z phoe: you can't do (symbol-package 'cl::foo) though for example since this is undefined behaviour 2018-04-06T05:55:35Z phoe: 'cl::foo will intern symbol FOO in CL at read-time and interning anything in CL is undefined 2018-04-06T05:55:41Z phoe: anything new* 2018-04-06T05:56:14Z verisimilitude: I'm inclined to believe, from what I've checked through the HyperSpec, that this would work, beach. 2018-04-06T05:56:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:56:55Z verisimilitude: The basic idea is to make constant the amount of other storage necessary to store a certain type of symbol, by heuristically choosing which is likely to be the most numerous. 2018-04-06T05:57:13Z verisimilitude: It would be entirely reasonable in this scheme to treat the COMMON-LISP package differently, which I've already considered. 2018-04-06T05:57:28Z verisimilitude: The special code for this case would easily be dwarfed by the list or other structure, justifying it. 2018-04-06T05:57:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T05:57:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:57:59Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T05:58:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T05:58:22Z verisimilitude: So, COMMON-LISP would only contain symbols that would be external and so code using this would treat it differently, to save more space. 2018-04-06T06:03:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:07:59Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:08:08Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:08:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:11:34Z red-dot joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:12:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:13:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T06:18:58Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-06T06:23:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:23:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:27:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:28:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:30:37Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:32:01Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:32:13Z sukaeto quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:33:10Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T06:33:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:36:09Z mikecheck joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:40:16Z phoe: This should work. There is no requirement that there are any non-external symbols in the CL package. 2018-04-06T06:41:02Z mikecheck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:43:57Z sukaeto joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:49:19Z jackdaniel: ECL's core is written in C, so it may be simply bootstrapped from a C compiler 2018-04-06T06:50:08Z jackdaniel: libecl.so which provides complete Common Lisp implementation when stripped occupies 4MB of memory 2018-04-06T06:50:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T06:51:36Z jackdaniel: cmp.fas (which provides compiler -> C -> native code) adds additional 1.2MB (without it code is interpreted) 2018-04-06T06:52:25Z jackdaniel: what is noteworthy since libecl is a shared object multitude of applications may use it (so it is not 100 apps x 4MB but rather 100 apps + 4MB in term of space) 2018-04-06T06:54:05Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:55:57Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T06:56:51Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:57:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:58:34Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T06:59:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:00:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:01:32Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T07:01:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:05:24Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:07:04Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-06T07:08:40Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:09:41Z tokik quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-06T07:10:01Z tokik joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:11:53Z tokik left #lisp 2018-04-06T07:12:37Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:12:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:17:06Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2018-04-06T07:17:06Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:17:40Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2018-04-06T07:18:03Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:19:42Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:22:30Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:25:51Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-06T07:31:29Z figurehe4d joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:32:51Z phoe: that is already pretty small 2018-04-06T07:33:04Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:36:18Z flip214: I get "A function with declared result type NIL returned: bordeaux-threads:condition-wait" and the SBCL process stops. 2018-04-06T07:36:58Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:37:09Z phoe: flip214: stops? as in, completely dies? 2018-04-06T07:37:18Z phoe: what is your SBCL version and BT version? 2018-04-06T07:38:01Z phoe: AFAIR this is an intermittent bug that #sbcl has been hunting for in a while. You could go there and help them debug it. 2018-04-06T07:38:11Z mingus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T07:38:34Z epony: Is this any lisp or something else? http://piumarta.com/software/maru/ 2018-04-06T07:39:06Z phoe: http://piumarta.com/software/maru/original/eval.l looks definitely lispy 2018-04-06T07:39:20Z flip214: phoe: 1.4.5 + 193 commits or so. 2018-04-06T07:39:28Z flip214: bt should be current as of QL 2018-04-06T07:39:48Z phoe: flip214: #sbcl should know about it, then. 2018-04-06T07:40:11Z phoe: As in: tell them, because they should know that this bug manifested in your case. 2018-04-06T07:40:23Z epony: Maru software is mentioned as a self hosting, but it does not say Common Lisp. 2018-04-06T07:40:34Z phoe: Because it is not Common Lisp. 2018-04-06T07:43:53Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T07:43:54Z mingus joined #lisp 2018-04-06T07:57:17Z loke: epony: What language is that? 2018-04-06T07:57:50Z epony: Does not say on the descr page.. 2018-04-06T07:58:39Z loke: Looks liek Scheme 2018-04-06T07:58:58Z loke: the function ‘pair?’. Using ‘define’ to define functions and variables. 2018-04-06T07:59:41Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:00:37Z loke: Oh. http://piumarta.com/software/maru/ 2018-04-06T08:02:24Z epony: Probably a PoC of some sort 2018-04-06T08:04:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:05:58Z angelo|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-06T08:08:09Z epony: http://piumarta.com/cv/bio.html 2018-04-06T08:10:54Z typose_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T08:13:40Z loke` joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:13:59Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T08:19:12Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:19:45Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:20:39Z phoe: beach: I ran into an issue when defining protools for conditions. They aren't STANDARD-OBJECTs and therefore cannot subclass protocol classes. A possible workaround I think of is to define an equivalent protocol condition type that is instead meant to be subclassed by conditions only. 2018-04-06T08:21:06Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:21:43Z jackdaniel: conditions are not objects hence they can't be subclassed 2018-04-06T08:21:53Z jackdaniel: conditions may inherit from other conditions 2018-04-06T08:22:09Z jackdaniel: clhs gives no guarantees that condition object has anything to do with clos 2018-04-06T08:22:12Z phoe: yep, s/subclassed/subtyped/ 2018-04-06T08:22:20Z jackdaniel: s/are not objects/are not clos objects/ 2018-04-06T08:22:46Z Shinmera: Is there actually any implementation that doesn't implement them using CLOS? 2018-04-06T08:22:50Z phoe: SBCL 2018-04-06T08:23:05Z phoe: I tested many of the other ones, and they have conditions being standard-objects. 2018-04-06T08:23:13Z glv joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:23:46Z jackdaniel: writing correct programs is not the same as writing programs that seem to work most of the time 2018-04-06T08:23:48Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:24:43Z jackdaniel: phoe: SBCL uses CLOS to implement conditions (but they come from condition-class hierarchy) 2018-04-06T08:25:31Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'm asking because 1) conditions not being under CLOS is in my opinion an oversight of the spec 2) I am curious what implementations do because of 1) 2018-04-06T08:25:47Z phoe: Shinmera: not an oversight 2018-04-06T08:26:15Z Shinmera: Fine, let's call it unfortunate then. 2018-04-06T08:26:18Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: I can imagine hardware having support for condition handling 2018-04-06T08:26:29Z phoe: X3J13 thought that some kind/subset of CL could be delivered without CLOS, and they nonetheless wanted to keep conditions in even if CLOS is out 2018-04-06T08:26:47Z Shinmera: phoe: That wouldn't be CL though, so that's irrelevant. 2018-04-06T08:26:59Z jackdaniel: then conditions could be implemented in terms of this hardware primitives 2018-04-06T08:27:06Z phoe: Shinmera: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/iss049_w.htm 2018-04-06T08:27:09Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That doesn't answer my question. 2018-04-06T08:27:54Z jackdaniel: well, it partially does – it may be a reason conditions are not defined as being clos objects. 2018-04-06T08:28:12Z Shinmera: It does not. My question is what current implementations do. 2018-04-06T08:28:21Z Shinmera: I don't care what the spec says in this case. I want a case-study. 2018-04-06T08:28:48Z jackdaniel: oh, so when you do it please share your insights 2018-04-06T08:30:00Z phoe: Shinmera: SBCL wants to have conditions early in its build phase, earlier than it builds its PCL - that is a major issue that I have identified 2018-04-06T08:32:35Z jackdaniel: ECL has conditions before PCL is even loaded, so in principle it supports non-clos conditions (as well as clos ones which are prevalent) 2018-04-06T08:33:04Z phoe: hm 2018-04-06T08:33:05Z Shinmera: phoe: That's fine, but as long as they are tied into CLOS once we hit user-land it doesn't really matter. 2018-04-06T08:33:44Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:35:55Z phoe: Shinmera: so what do we do? Write a set of tests for verifying if conditions are standard-objects and all associated functionality, write a CDR that holds the same assertions as the test suite, run the tests on all implementations and then try to hammer the impls until the tests pass? 2018-04-06T08:36:11Z phoe: since that's what I think it would take to have it implemented. 2018-04-06T08:36:21Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:37:03Z Shinmera: Well first survey what implementations do -- record the type, class, and potentially metaclass of CONDITION. 2018-04-06T08:37:11Z jackdaniel: phoe: what you propose is writing CDR to make incorrect programms magically correct? 2018-04-06T08:37:20Z Shinmera: Once we have that info we can determine whether it's possible to paper-over or whether implementations actually would need change. 2018-04-06T08:37:20Z jackdaniel: shouldn't it be the other way around? 2018-04-06T08:38:05Z phoe: jackdaniel: what I propose is extending the language via a CDR in the same way some implementations already extend it 2018-04-06T08:39:30Z loke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:39:42Z dorothyw joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:39:59Z Shinmera: Conditions being under CLOS would be an extension in the same way that extensible sequences are. 2018-04-06T08:40:00Z jackdaniel: I think it is not an extension but rather implementation detail. maybe I've missed the part of *any* implementation manual about "extension" making conditions clos objects 2018-04-06T08:40:02Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T08:40:10Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:40:20Z phoe: while I understand that X3J13 did not find it meaningful to make conditions standard-objects back then (reading the notes, I assume backward compatibility with previous lisps) , I find it meaningful nowadays to do that nonetheless 2018-04-06T08:40:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:41:02Z Shinmera: phoe: From reading what you linked it seemed to me that they pretty heavily favoured making it CLOS, but then didn't have time to finalise the details of it. 2018-04-06T08:41:28Z phoe: Shinmera: I need to read it again when I'm not at work. I didn't get that impression when I read it. 2018-04-06T08:42:20Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:43:51Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T08:45:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:46:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:47:02Z dorothyw is now known as johnnymacs 2018-04-06T08:51:32Z beach: phoe: Sounds good. 2018-04-06T08:51:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T08:55:18Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-06T08:57:33Z phoe: Shinmera: I actually did a thing and things seem to "somewhat" work for the little bit of testing I have done so far. This thing is (defmethod sb-mop::validate-superclass ((class sb-mop::standard-class) (superclass sb-pcl::condition-class)) t) 2018-04-06T08:57:49Z phoe: And now I can (defclass foo (standard-object condition) ()) 2018-04-06T08:57:54Z runejuhl joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:58:00Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:58:24Z Shinmera raises an eyebrow 2018-04-06T08:58:38Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-06T08:58:59Z phoe: that is some SBCL hackery that I'm doing now 2018-04-06T08:59:37Z beach: I don't think it's conforming. 2018-04-06T09:00:35Z phoe: beach: of course it's not. 2018-04-06T09:00:46Z beach: Just making sure you know. 2018-04-06T09:01:11Z phoe: The standard no longer helps me here, yes. (: 2018-04-06T09:01:32Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:06:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:07:41Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-06T09:10:59Z Xof: phoe: you might have some difficulty getting slot locations right for such a hybrid object 2018-04-06T09:11:42Z phoe: Xof: I actually don't think I want to pursue this thing since it's not exactly that I would like. 2018-04-06T09:11:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T09:13:52Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:14:01Z kdridi joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:14:33Z phoe: Instead of cross-breeding standard-class and condition by means of objects that subclass both, I wonder if it would be possible to make condition a subclass of standard-object. 2018-04-06T09:14:42Z phoe: And diving into SBCL code, this will in no way be trivial. 2018-04-06T09:18:37Z kdridi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T09:19:01Z Xof: indeed 2018-04-06T09:19:04Z kdridi joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:19:41Z Xof: it's not completely impossible, but: is the effort worth it? 2018-04-06T09:21:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:23:54Z kdridi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T09:31:55Z mn3m joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:34:20Z phoe: Xof: the ability to drive conditions via CLOS and MOP, even partially, sounds worth it in my opinion 2018-04-06T09:36:19Z kdridi joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:36:37Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:38:09Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T09:39:22Z sukaeto quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T09:40:14Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T09:41:05Z sukaeto joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:41:32Z kdridi quit 2018-04-06T09:44:05Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:45:13Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:51:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:51:50Z inoperable quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-06T09:52:52Z inoperable joined #lisp 2018-04-06T09:54:26Z Xof: what does that mean? 2018-04-06T10:00:44Z 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260 seconds) 2018-04-06T11:23:09Z mingus`` joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:24:09Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T11:24:31Z tessier joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:26:24Z mingus` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T11:27:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:29:03Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T11:29:36Z tessier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T11:29:59Z tessier joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:30:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:34:00Z mingus`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T11:34:09Z phoe: TIL I can do (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((warning style-warning) &key) (print "boo")) 2018-04-06T11:34:14Z phoe: and this works on sbcl ccl ecl clisp abcl 2018-04-06T11:35:28Z Bike: why wouldn't it 2018-04-06T11:35:45Z Bike: oh, you mean because conditions are in the separate hierarchy 2018-04-06T11:36:01Z phoe: yes 2018-04-06T11:37:56Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:39:00Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:40:49Z Bike: there's not a lot of reason to not make conditions basically standard objects, so 2018-04-06T11:42:41Z mingus joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:43:14Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:44:11Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-06T11:45:14Z Shinmera: phoe: You can but, if I remember correctly, initialize-instance is not always called. 2018-04-06T11:46:17Z Bike: on sbcl make-condition doesn't go through the initialization methods, it looks like 2018-04-06T11:46:30Z phoe: ...well, shit 2018-04-06T11:46:44Z phoe: that's correct, make-instance would need to be called by make-condition 2018-04-06T11:47:25Z phoe: and I can't force not-my code to use make-instance instead of make-condition. 2018-04-06T11:48:00Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:48:32Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:52:34Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T11:55:47Z pierpa left #lisp 2018-04-06T11:56:08Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-06T11:59:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:00:39Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T12:01:03Z jackdaniel: that is not a correct way of "catching" style warnings either way 2018-04-06T12:01:08Z jackdaniel: because someone could create a condition 2018-04-06T12:01:13Z jackdaniel: and signal it multiple times 2018-04-06T12:01:22Z jackdaniel: you want to handle these with handler-bind 2018-04-06T12:01:43Z Xach: Hmm 2018-04-06T12:01:57Z jackdaniel: just saying 2018-04-06T12:02:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:04:19Z phoe: jackdaniel: I don't want to catch them 2018-04-06T12:04:24Z Guest7212 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T12:04:43Z phoe: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((condition my-condition) &key) (print "boo")) 2018-04-06T12:04:46Z phoe: there, a bit better now 2018-04-06T12:05:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T12:07:06Z phoe: I don't want a constructor to catch anything, I want a constructor to do things whenever a my-condition is instantiated 2018-04-06T12:10:44Z fikka 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2018-04-06T12:42:29Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:44:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T12:47:22Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T12:48:11Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:48:19Z dlowe: I kind of don't get why conditions are in a separate hierarchy anyway. 2018-04-06T12:50:43Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:51:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T12:51:35Z phoe: dlowe: we discussed about that a tiny bit up above. 2018-04-06T12:53:04Z dlowe: so much effort to scroll back... 2018-04-06T12:53:41Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-06T12:54:43Z dlowe: okay, yeah, that sounds believable. 2018-04-06T12:55:12Z oleo: evening 2018-04-06T13:03:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T13:06:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:10:25Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:21:15Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:24:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:25:55Z oleo: why is movitz.pdf forbidden ? 2018-04-06T13:26:02Z oleo: wth 2018-04-06T13:26:39Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:26:39Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-06T13:26:39Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:26:49Z elderK: Hey guys. 2018-04-06T13:26:59Z elderK: After a rather horrible mistake, I am here pondering stuff. 2018-04-06T13:27:52Z dlowe: how horrible? 2018-04-06T13:28:00Z elderK: I've been working on a tool to help me play with grammars. I spent my mid-semester break making several iterations of said tool. I just finished it. It let you compute the first/follow sets for an arbitrary grammar it read from stdin. It also allowed you to produce an LL(1) parse table, if possible, for said grammar. It was written in C++. 2018-04-06T13:28:11Z elderK: I just erased it all thanks to a space before a wildcard. 2018-04-06T13:28:16Z elderK: So, pretty horrible. 2018-04-06T13:28:29Z elderK: I *just* got it to the point where I was ready to call it done, too. 2018-04-06T13:28:36Z elderK: Of course, I had no commits yet. Since, it would have been the initial. 2018-04-06T13:28:40Z elderK: ANYWAY. 2018-04-06T13:28:54Z elderK: I will have to rewrite it some time in the future. As, it would have been a useful tool for me to have. 2018-04-06T13:28:56Z dlowe: no snapshots? 2018-04-06T13:29:00Z elderK: Except I have decided: Next time, I will write it in CL. 2018-04-06T13:29:16Z ghard``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T13:29:30Z elderK: Nope. 2018-04-06T13:29:31Z dlowe: sounds great. The rewrite will be faster anyway. 2018-04-06T13:29:36Z elderK: Yeah. 2018-04-06T13:29:40Z elderK: Still, it kinda hurts. 2018-04-06T13:29:55Z elderK: I really wanted to show a lecturer of mine the finished product. As well as some others. 2018-04-06T13:29:57Z dlowe: I once deleted an entire product at work, so I feel your pain. 2018-04-06T13:30:04Z semz: something about two kinds of people and backups 2018-04-06T13:30:25Z elderK: Normally I treat VCS as backup. If only I had committed my work *as* I was building it, as usual, I could have just reverted. 2018-04-06T13:30:34Z elderK: But I didn't. Because stupidly, I wanted to have a "clean initial import." 2018-04-06T13:30:37Z dlowe: semz: people who sympathize and people who like to assert their superiority? 2018-04-06T13:30:44Z phoe: elderK: not just you, https://github.com/valvesoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671 https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee-Old-and-abbandoned/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6f1dafc8beb84f2ac#diff-3fbb47e318cd8802bd325e7da9aaabe8L351 2018-04-06T13:30:59Z phoe: see both of these for lots of sudo rm -rf fun 2018-04-06T13:31:02Z semz: dlowe: no superiority asserted, i've been there as well once 2018-04-06T13:31:03Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T13:31:19Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:31:21Z elderK: In any case, as much as this sucks, at least I know I can produce such a program. And that's worth something, the know-how too. 2018-04-06T13:31:26Z dlowe: if you use git and emacs, there's a nice git-wip library that will save every edit in a "work in progress" branch 2018-04-06T13:31:26Z elderK: Anyway, I do have a real question for you guys :) 2018-04-06T13:31:29Z elderK: Based on this experience. 2018-04-06T13:31:49Z elderK: I was here a few days ago, asking how to represent a state machine in CL. I was told that tagbody and gotos are a common way to do that in CL. 2018-04-06T13:31:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T13:32:07Z elderK: However, there is an approach I like to use from the C world and I'm not sure if it maps well to CL - and if it does, how. 2018-04-06T13:32:08Z dlowe: really? that sounds terrible. 2018-04-06T13:32:56Z elderK: A TAGBODY and GOs makes me think of switches and gotos. I don't really like that, so usually I have a 2D array. One axis is the current state, the second axis is the input. That let's me transition just by accessing. 2018-04-06T13:33:07Z dlowe: the way you represent a state machine in CL is with state functions that return the next state function 2018-04-06T13:33:08Z elderK: say, lut[current_state][input] -> new_state 2018-04-06T13:33:14Z elderK: Ah, I was thinking that, too. 2018-04-06T13:33:27Z elderK: :) That was what I was going to ask. 2018-04-06T13:33:47Z elderK: Say, some function f. You call f with some input, f returns the next function. 2018-04-06T13:33:49Z dlowe: (labels ((a () (return b)) (b () (return a)) (loop for state = a then (state)) 2018-04-06T13:33:50Z elderK: Rinse, repeat. 2018-04-06T13:34:17Z elderK: Neat :) 2018-04-06T13:34:18Z elderK: Next question! :D 2018-04-06T13:34:21Z dlowe: you can also use multiple values if you want to accumulate results like a parser 2018-04-06T13:34:39Z dlowe: so a function returns a result AND the unparsed sequence AND the next state 2018-04-06T13:34:48Z Shinmera: dlowe: I don't see how that's a significant improvement over tagbody and go 2018-04-06T13:35:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:35:13Z dlowe: Shinmera: well for one thing you can test each function's behavior in isolation 2018-04-06T13:35:17Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-06T13:35:24Z elderK: Again from C, let's say for a lexer I'm accepting some input character. Generally, I don't care about characters. I care about entire classes of characters so I have a LUT that translates a given code-point to a given class. Say, "=" to "equals" and all of the numbers and alphabet as "alphanumeric." 2018-04-06T13:35:35Z elderK: I was wondering what the accepted way is to do that in CL. 2018-04-06T13:35:44Z Shinmera: dlowe: Fair enough. 2018-04-06T13:35:48Z elderK: I see people doing that with giant switches in C/C++. I;d like to avoid that in CL if possible. 2018-04-06T13:35:56Z dlowe: also, you have constrained the problem to that of a state machine, whereas there are no such guarantees with tagbody 2018-04-06T13:35:56Z elderK: There's just something weirdly relaxing to me about LUTs. 2018-04-06T13:36:02Z phoe: elderK: read the chracter and dispatch based on it 2018-04-06T13:36:15Z dlowe: elderK: we have nice hash tables in CL 2018-04-06T13:36:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:36:27Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T13:36:36Z elderK: phoe: I'm not reading anything here. The functions that do stuff based on input, accept input as an argument. 2018-04-06T13:36:38Z elderK: They don't read themselves. 2018-04-06T13:36:47Z dlowe: there's also a unicode library that handles all that for you 2018-04-06T13:36:58Z rumbler31: cl methods can dispatch on 'eql parameters 2018-04-06T13:37:04Z elderK: I don't think I've made myself clear. 2018-04-06T13:37:25Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:37:30Z elderK: I'm not interested in the actual "class" of a character. I'm interested in translating a character into something useful to me, in a sense, they become low-level tokens. 2018-04-06T13:37:44Z dlowe: elderK: right. build a hash table keyed on characters 2018-04-06T13:37:57Z rumbler31: elderK: you're asking essentially if there is language support for dispatching on X, where X is some thing 2018-04-06T13:37:59Z dlowe: the value is a symbol denoting the character class 2018-04-06T13:38:24Z elderK: dlowe: Okay. I thought I'd hae to use the hash tables. 2018-04-06T13:38:35Z rumbler31: you can do it with a hash table by hand, or if you can dispatch on eql, you can use generic functions 2018-04-06T13:38:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:38:52Z dlowe: dispatching on eql sounds considerably more "by hand" 2018-04-06T13:39:14Z rumbler31: you get the benefit of not having to program much. 2018-04-06T13:39:33Z elderK: rumbler31: How? You'd have to create a specialization for each code point, no? 2018-04-06T13:39:46Z rumbler31: elderK: well with what you want to do, you have to do that anyways 2018-04-06T13:40:01Z elderK: Yes but I can automate that very easily. 2018-04-06T13:40:11Z rumbler31: in what way? 2018-04-06T13:40:45Z elderK: Let's say I care about all code points < 128. I create a hash table. Initialize it so all 128 code points are say, 'invalid. Then, I build the proper mappings. 2018-04-06T13:40:47Z dlowe: technically you can automate defining a bunch of methods too 2018-04-06T13:40:55Z elderK: say, 0x30-0x39, etc. 2018-04-06T13:41:05Z dlowe: but involving the CLOS dispatch mechanism for zero benefit seems like a poor tradeoff 2018-04-06T13:41:13Z elderK: Yeah, my feelings exactly. 2018-04-06T13:41:24Z elderK: We're just moving the "table lookup" elsewhere, really. 2018-04-06T13:41:31Z rumbler31: yes, with less code 2018-04-06T13:41:36Z elderK: It's not less code. 2018-04-06T13:41:42Z elderK: Either you have some read-time thing that generates the methods. 2018-04-06T13:41:48Z elderK: Or you have some thing that generates the hash table. 2018-04-06T13:42:55Z elderK: rumbler31: To be fair though, I will play with your approach when I do it. 2018-04-06T13:42:57Z elderK: I'll try both :) 2018-04-06T13:43:26Z elderK: But this does raise another question: What is the accepted way to get a given character's code point? I have found char-code and char-int. And, am a little confused with the difference between them. 2018-04-06T13:43:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T13:43:43Z elderK: (I've also seen cl-unicode. Does it override char-code and char-int?) 2018-04-06T13:44:38Z dlowe: no, you use its api 2018-04-06T13:44:53Z mrpat joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:45:21Z dlowe: I mean, if your cl implementation supports unicode (and most of them do, if not all of them), char-code and code-char will do the right thing 2018-04-06T13:45:39Z dlowe: it'll return the codepoint, though, not a byte encoding. 2018-04-06T13:46:00Z warweasle quit (Quit: back later) 2018-04-06T13:46:07Z elderK: That's all good. Code-point would be great. 2018-04-06T13:46:27Z elderK: Then I don't have to do the decoding myself :) (I wrote a library for that some time ago. I'd certainly be happy to avoid that! :D) 2018-04-06T13:46:31Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:46:45Z elderK takes a look at cl-unicode API in closer detail. 2018-04-06T13:47:12Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:47:38Z itruslove joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:48:07Z dlowe: I was talking more about the unicode character classification 2018-04-06T13:48:29Z elderK: Weird. I can't see anything in cl-unicode's API about it, itself, doing any kind of reading of characters. It lets you determine a lot of interesting properties about characters based on their name or code-point. But, that depends on the implementation giving you a code-point. 2018-04-06T13:48:33Z elderK: dlowe: Fair point. 2018-04-06T13:48:45Z phoe: elderK: then dispatch only 2018-04-06T13:50:59Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T13:51:39Z giraffe joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:57:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-06T13:57:30Z Guest7212 is now known as cmecca 2018-04-06T13:57:37Z cmecca quit (Changing host) 2018-04-06T13:57:37Z cmecca joined #lisp 2018-04-06T13:59:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:02:46Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:05:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:07:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:07:33Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:08:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:09:11Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:09:28Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-06T14:09:50Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-06T14:13:52Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:19:23Z rk[ghost] joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:19:35Z rk[ghost]: ... i just typed '/ 640 12' in to google search -.- 2018-04-06T14:19:54Z rk[ghost]: apparently lisp has rotted my brain.. 2018-04-06T14:21:53Z TMA: rk[ghost]: I have had trouble telling why that should be wrong for a moment 2018-04-06T14:21:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:22:03Z rk[ghost]: :) 2018-04-06T14:22:06Z papachan joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:22:56Z schjetne joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:23:10Z _death: should've typed it at your repl instead.. you do have a repl open, right? 2018-04-06T14:23:18Z glv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T14:23:29Z rk[ghost]: of course, but i am dual computing 2018-04-06T14:23:39Z rk[ghost]: and the other machine, doesn't have a repl 2018-04-06T14:23:43Z phoe: _death: no parens 2018-04-06T14:24:09Z rk[ghost]: right, i didn't go that far.. i knew i was in google.. but when i went to type a math equation.. my mind said... operator first! 2018-04-06T14:24:15Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:24:24Z phoe: rk[ghost]: ssh from the second machine to the one that has the repl, or go for remote swank 2018-04-06T14:24:29Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:24:41Z rk[ghost]: i once set up a readline config to have a hotkey to prepend and postpend ( )s 2018-04-06T14:24:46Z phoe: there, lisp everywhere 2018-04-06T14:24:46Z rk[ghost]: but it isn't so useful except for silly small math equations as such.. 2018-04-06T14:25:08Z rk[ghost]: aye, there are oodles of options.. i was just quickly questioning something.. 2018-04-06T14:27:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:30:50Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:32:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:33:01Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T14:33:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:37:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:38:32Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:38:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:38:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:39:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:41:03Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:42:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:43:03Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T14:43:25Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:43:45Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:43:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:45:29Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T14:45:47Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:45:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:46:45Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:47:57Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:48:36Z elderK: Hey guys, what's the best way to "build" a stirng, character by character? 2018-04-06T14:48:39Z elderK: Like, say as a buffer. 2018-04-06T14:48:49Z warweasle: elderK: A string-stream 2018-04-06T14:48:55Z elderK: Sweet :) 2018-04-06T14:48:57Z elderK: Thanks 2018-04-06T14:49:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:50:30Z Shinmera: clhs with-output-to-string 2018-04-06T14:50:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 2018-04-06T14:50:42Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:51:06Z warweasle: I forgot about that 2018-04-06T14:51:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:51:50Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:53:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:53:50Z dlowe: I guess you can be forgiven for forgetting one out of the 752 common lisp functions. 2018-04-06T14:54:32Z Shinmera uses w-o-t-s frequently 2018-04-06T14:54:40Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:54:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:56:06Z schjetne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T14:56:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:56:42Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:56:43Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T14:56:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T14:57:17Z mrpat: I have an issue with parsing a uri from JSON. Once it is parsed, the repl evals it and counts the : as a package delimiter and spews an error. Is there a simple fix? 2018-04-06T14:57:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:57:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:57:53Z dlowe: keep the uri as a string and don't evaluate it 2018-04-06T14:57:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T14:58:17Z dlowe: I don't even know how you're doing that by accident 2018-04-06T14:58:27Z mrpat: I am only asking for it to be parsed into an alist 2018-04-06T14:58:50Z Bike: can we see some code? 2018-04-06T14:59:04Z mrpat: Where do I post code? 2018-04-06T14:59:08Z mrpat: Here? 2018-04-06T14:59:16Z Bike: pastebin site 2018-04-06T14:59:27Z mrpat: Ok gimme a sec 2018-04-06T15:00:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:01:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:01:47Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:02:14Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:02:16Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:02:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:02:57Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:03:31Z mrpat: https://pastebin.com/FGB643jx (jojo is the jonathan package) 2018-04-06T15:03:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:03:59Z Bike: you need to escape quote marks 2018-04-06T15:04:18Z Bike: "{" config ": { ... " will read as two strings with a symbol in the middle 2018-04-06T15:04:44Z mrpat: create a function to preparse? 2018-04-06T15:05:15Z Bike: no 2018-04-06T15:05:15Z mrpat: its the gs:// that makes it barf 2018-04-06T15:05:21Z Bike: it's the whole thing 2018-04-06T15:05:37Z dlowe: just put a \ before each internal " 2018-04-06T15:05:38Z Bike: why do you even have this literally in your code? will this not be like, a variable with a string in it, later? 2018-04-06T15:05:54Z cylb_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:06:12Z dlowe: since we don't have curly quotes in our code (and maybe we should!) it can't figure out where your quotations begin and end 2018-04-06T15:06:30Z mrpat: thats JSON man 2018-04-06T15:06:38Z Bike: I know it's json. 2018-04-06T15:06:41Z dlowe: that's string embedding man 2018-04-06T15:06:54Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:07:10Z Bike: if you write "foo" bar "baz" in your code obviously the code parser is going to think it's two strings. 2018-04-06T15:07:22Z dlowe: if you can't be convinced, try reading your json from a file and get back to us 2018-04-06T15:07:37Z mrpat: Thanks for the snark 2018-04-06T15:07:39Z Bike: So escape the internal quotation marks if you write it literally in the code like that. 2018-04-06T15:07:41Z dlowe: same to you 2018-04-06T15:08:01Z Bike: I'm just asking because having literal json in your code seems unusual. Usually you'd be reading it off the wire or something, I would think. 2018-04-06T15:08:04Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-06T15:08:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:08:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:09:40Z mrpat: I am just trying to get used to dealing with it. I will be sending and receiving JSON through a socket connection. 2018-04-06T15:09:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:10:03Z Bike: So this isn't permanent. 2018-04-06T15:10:13Z Bike: In that case just escaping the quotes should be fine. 2018-04-06T15:10:35Z Bike: (with-input-from-string (s "{\"config\": ...") ...) 2018-04-06T15:10:36Z mrpat: what is the function to escape quotes? 2018-04-06T15:10:48Z Bike: just do like what i wrote. 2018-04-06T15:10:51Z mrpat: so it is a preparse! 2018-04-06T15:11:09Z Bike: Whatever you want to call it. 2018-04-06T15:11:44Z Bike: But you won't be doing it when you get the json off the wire. 2018-04-06T15:11:55Z mrpat: OK thanks for the help. 2018-04-06T15:12:01Z Guest69321 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-06T15:12:01Z Bike: The escaping is for the Lisp reader, which won't be touching json you get that way. 2018-04-06T15:12:16Z mrpat: exactly 2018-04-06T15:12:42Z Bike: Which is why I wouldn't have a separate "preparse" function or whatever. 2018-04-06T15:12:49Z mrpat: escape == turn the reader off? 2018-04-06T15:12:56Z Bike: No. 2018-04-06T15:13:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:13:41Z Bike: When you write "foo" "bar" the parser obviously interprets it as two strings. 2018-04-06T15:13:49Z Guest69321 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:13:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:14:00Z mrpat: I get that 2018-04-06T15:14:04Z Bike: If you write "foo\" \"bar", the parser sees the backslashes and accumulates a literal double quote character into one string instead. 2018-04-06T15:14:14Z Bike: So you have one string of length nine. 2018-04-06T15:15:16Z mrpat: So my function needs to inject \ into the raw json? that seems odd. 2018-04-06T15:15:38Z Bike: No. 2018-04-06T15:15:41Z Bike: No, look. 2018-04-06T15:15:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:15:50Z Bike: Right now i'm talking about how the parser of lisp code reads your code. 2018-04-06T15:16:13Z Bike: When you actually are getting raw json, that will just be a string in your program, and the lisp parser won't get anywhere near it. 2018-04-06T15:16:18Z easye: Is there any portable way to read user input from a terminal without echoing the characters typed? (I need to input a passphrase). 2018-04-06T15:16:23Z Bike: So you won't have to escape anything. 2018-04-06T15:16:35Z Bike: But right NOW what you're doing is putting a string literally in your code. 2018-04-06T15:16:55Z Bike: And for that you do have to escape it, because otherwise it can't be parsed with the code, because "foo" "bar" would obviously read as two strings and so on. 2018-04-06T15:16:56Z mrpat: Yes Bike I see that. 2018-04-06T15:17:28Z mrpat: It's actually the : creating the error 2018-04-06T15:17:42Z Bike: You'd get another error without the : 2018-04-06T15:17:48Z mrpat: Also won't be affected later 2018-04-06T15:17:59Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:18:01Z Bike: because with-input-from-string would go hey wait, why are you giving me like eight strings instead of one string. 2018-04-06T15:18:12Z mrpat: Ahhh 2018-04-06T15:18:23Z mrpat: good point 2018-04-06T15:18:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:19:27Z mrpat: I will make some changes. Thanks for your help. 2018-04-06T15:19:58Z Bike: if you expect to be using literal json a lot, you could alter the parser a bit so that you don't need to escape things. 2018-04-06T15:20:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:21:08Z semz: easye: Unices have getpass (unistd.h), and while I'm not aware of any CL wrapper it's a simple FFI call. Whether FFI is "portable" is another question though. 2018-04-06T15:21:41Z Guest36573 is now known as kolb 2018-04-06T15:21:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:22:21Z mrpat: I was looking for an example of parser manipulation 2018-04-06T15:22:43Z Bike: you should probably just use an existing one. cl-interpol should do. 2018-04-06T15:22:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T15:23:25Z Bike: then you can do #?{{"config": { ...}}} and it should be okay, i think. 2018-04-06T15:23:58Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T15:24:03Z mrpat: I will look into that package 2018-04-06T15:24:47Z semz: then again, terminal control isn't very portable anyway. 2018-04-06T15:25:04Z easye: semz: getpass() should work (I just need a macos/linux solution). 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a cached fasl issue. I managed to fix the one from the package manager. 2018-04-06T19:17:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T19:18:20Z aeth: It looks like the one in roswell fails in process-grovel-file with ":INPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle:\n#" 2018-04-06T19:21:14Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:21:58Z aeth: hmm, I thought deleting the caches for slime, static-vectors, and cffi would fix it but it did not. 2018-04-06T19:23:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:26:09Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:27:04Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:28:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T19:29:28Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:30:16Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:34:58Z epony left #lisp 2018-04-06T19:36:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:37:35Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:39:55Z LdBeth uploaded an image: ima_e4a35ae.png (103KB) 2018-04-06T19:40:29Z LdBeth sorry, wrong channel, please just ignore that 2018-04-06T19:43:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:44:50Z on_ion: aeth: hmm ive never tried roswell, but maybe delete more stuff ? 2018-04-06T19:46:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T19:47:02Z mrpat quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-06T19:48:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T19:48:41Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:49:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T19:49:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2018-04-06T19:49:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:50:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T19:50:57Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T19:51:33Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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However now the company-mode small autocompletion is popping, so I think it was still part of the problem 2018-04-06T20:21:41Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-06T20:24:27Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T20:36:17Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-06T20:44:48Z shuysman joined #lisp 2018-04-06T20:46:54Z shuysman quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-06T20:47:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-06T20:48:02Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T20:49:58Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T20:51:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T20:55:31Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-06T21:01:08Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-06T21:02:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-06T21:06:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T21:06:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T21:07:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T21:11:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-06T21:12:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 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under SLIME. 2018-04-06T22:59:28Z verisimilitude: It's unfortunate that SBCL seems better tested with SLIME. 2018-04-06T22:59:59Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:02:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:03:58Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:04:32Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:04:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:06:07Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T23:06:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:08:16Z saki quit (Quit: saki) 2018-04-06T23:09:33Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:09:46Z ldb: sup 2018-04-06T23:12:22Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:15:35Z verisimilitude: Hello, ldb. 2018-04-06T23:15:40Z verisimilitude: How are you? 2018-04-06T23:17:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:17:59Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:20:23Z ldb: verisimilitude: good. 2018-04-06T23:20:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:21:19Z verisimilitude: That's nice. 2018-04-06T23:21:29Z verisimilitude: Now, what is it you've been working on lately, ldb? 2018-04-06T23:22:01Z ldb except arthralgia. it always rainning these days 2018-04-06T23:22:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:22:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:22:33Z ldb: verisimilitude: as i said, a assembler in common lisp, mainly for x86_64 2018-04-06T23:22:57Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:23:02Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:23:25Z ldb: which is a simple program produce and emits opcodes to a stream 2018-04-06T23:23:27Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:25:01Z pfdietz: I wrote some simple code to grovel over quicklisp systems looking for package name and nickname collisions. 2018-04-06T23:25:18Z Xach: How'd it go? 2018-04-06T23:25:24Z pfdietz: I found 115 names that collided. 2018-04-06T23:25:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:25:37Z Xach: Cool 2018-04-06T23:26:08Z pfdietz: For example, RT (and RTEST) are defined in ten different places. 2018-04-06T23:26:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:27:48Z ldb: how about you CL impl, verisimilitude 2018-04-06T23:27:49Z pfdietz: The 115 excludes names that are in more than defpackage in only one software/...-git/ directory. 2018-04-06T23:28:07Z Xach: pfdietz: that's an interesting case. it was pretty common to bundle RT for testing. 2018-04-06T23:28:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:28:11Z Xach: not as much any more. 2018-04-06T23:28:33Z Xach: The example that springs first to my mind is BT for bordeaux-threads and binary-types. 2018-04-06T23:28:39Z pfdietz: Now they should just have a dependency to RT. 2018-04-06T23:28:57Z Xach: I don't think there's an RT in quicklisp, though. 2018-04-06T23:29:02Z Xach: separately, that is 2018-04-06T23:29:20Z pfdietz: I thought there was. 2018-04-06T23:29:35Z Xach: Ah, so there is. 2018-04-06T23:29:51Z Xach: one of the first projects i ever added! 2018-04-06T23:30:16Z pfdietz: rt-20101006-git 2018-04-06T23:30:28Z Xach: that is the date of the first quicklisp release 2018-04-06T23:30:31Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:31:39Z verisimilitude: That's entirely still in the planning stage, ldb. 2018-04-06T23:32:32Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:32:32Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-06T23:32:32Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:33:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:38:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:40:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:42:35Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:43:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:44:18Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:45:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-06T23:46:03Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2018-04-06T23:46:03Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:46:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:48:02Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-06T23:48:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-06T23:49:40Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 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seconds) 2018-04-07T00:22:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:23:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:27:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:27:45Z pfdietz: I don't see COVER in QL. 2018-04-07T00:28:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:29:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:30:54Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-07T00:33:04Z hel-io joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:33:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:34:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:34:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:36:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:38:56Z pioneer42 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:39:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:39:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:40:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:41:54Z verisimilitude quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-07T00:42:39Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:42:55Z aeth: I think that the issue I was having might be an interaction between ASDF, ECL, and certain libraries that deal with foreign code. When I updated to the latest Quicklisp, the distro-provided ECL stopped working with my program again. I guess ASDF isn't detecting when some things become stale in ECL? 2018-04-07T00:43:26Z aeth: I couldn't get the roswell ECL to work, but I suspect the solution is delete even more cached files than I thought to delete. 2018-04-07T00:44:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:45:31Z on_ion: try ECL from source ? 2018-04-07T00:45:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:49:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:49:49Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T00:50:54Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:53:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:53:52Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:56:34Z drunkencoder quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-07T00:58:34Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T00:58:52Z hel-io joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:59:20Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T00:59:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T00:59:39Z hel-io joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:00:08Z hel-io quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T01:00:47Z hel-io joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:01:08Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:02:38Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:04:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:05:51Z siraben` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:05:52Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:06:25Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T01:07:39Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:09:03Z johnnymacs is now known as dorothyw 2018-04-07T01:09:31Z hel-io joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:16:41Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:17:38Z hel-io quit 2018-04-07T01:19:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:21:58Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-07T01:23:50Z dorothyw: How can I get the performance of hash tables with pseudo-purely functional programming 2018-04-07T01:24:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:24:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T01:25:12Z dorothyw: As far as I know when programming in a pure way you can't get the same o notation as an array 2018-04-07T01:25:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:28:46Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:31:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:37:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:37:47Z jcowan: You cannot, although there are algorithms that can give you *local* O(1) performance by clever caching 2018-04-07T01:37:53Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:37:56Z jcowan: dorothyw: ^^ 2018-04-07T01:38:28Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:39:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:41:02Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:44:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:45:03Z dorothyw: how good is 0(1) compared to the worst performance of a hash table and how good is it compared to the best performance in layman's terms 2018-04-07T01:45:58Z |3b|: depends on the hash table, some have pretty bad 'worst case' performance 2018-04-07T01:46:33Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:46:46Z |3b|: (usually something like O(N) insert time on collisions) 2018-04-07T01:47:58Z ldb: dorothyw: the regular perfomance on all operations to hash table is O(1) 2018-04-07T01:48:13Z |3b|: i think 'pure functional' dictionaries usually just do fairly flat trees, so you have a small log term which is close enough to constant in practice 2018-04-07T01:48:54Z dorothyw: ah so make an immutable tree out of long arrays rather than linked lists 2018-04-07T01:50:12Z ldb: and hashtable operations in the worst case are O(n) 2018-04-07T01:50:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:50:32Z |3b|: along with various strategies to keep the tree balanced efficiently 2018-04-07T01:50:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:51:14Z ldb: depends on what kinds of operations you prefer 2018-04-07T01:52:13Z ldb: for concatenation and split 2018-04-07T01:52:15Z |3b|: also have to balance out how much memory you waste, if you care about that (in both cases, since hash tables need free space to avoid collisions, and trees spend space on pointers) 2018-04-07T01:52:24Z ldb: rope is quite good 2018-04-07T01:52:35Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:52:58Z dorothyw: I've read that binary search trees are o log n. DOes that mean that it gets progressively easier over time? 2018-04-07T01:53:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:53:11Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:53:20Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:53:38Z ldb: yes, except you need to blance the tree 2018-04-07T01:54:13Z |3b|: it means that if you have N entries, searching takes log(n) time. so 256 entries for a balanced binary tree is log2(256)=8 2018-04-07T01:54:29Z mpah quit (Quit: sleep) 2018-04-07T01:54:50Z dorothyw: is a score of 9 better than a score of 8 2018-04-07T01:55:11Z |3b|: 8 as in you have to check 8 nodes 2018-04-07T01:55:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:55:41Z ldb: dorothyw: larger number means slower 2018-04-07T01:55:44Z |3b|: while a 256 entry list you would have to search on average half of the list = checking 128 nodes (best case 0, worst 256) 2018-04-07T01:55:54Z dorothyw: what is the limit of log 2 x as x approaches infinity 2018-04-07T01:55:57Z |3b|: or a hash table you would (on average) search 1 node 2018-04-07T01:56:05Z |3b|: infinite 2018-04-07T01:56:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T01:56:20Z |3b|: but log2(most memory you could address in a pc)=48 2018-04-07T01:57:11Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:58:14Z |3b|: and in practice you probably addressing things larger than 1 byte and have much less than 2^48 bytes of ram (something like 256TB), so more realistically log2(X) is unlikely to get much past low 30s 2018-04-07T01:59:08Z semz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:59:08Z semz quit (Changing host) 2018-04-07T01:59:08Z semz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T01:59:11Z dorothyw: Is there a sort of monadic approach to handling hash tables 2018-04-07T01:59:23Z |3b|: and if you make the tree flatter, you would reduce that number even further 2018-04-07T02:00:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:02:14Z dorothyw: For example I could hook up lisp to sqlite in a pseudo pure way using monads 2018-04-07T02:02:26Z dorothyw: but pretend a hash table is sqlite 2018-04-07T02:05:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:12:00Z ldb: then just need monads 2018-04-07T02:19:31Z iqubic: I thought CL didn't have monads. 2018-04-07T02:19:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:20:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:21:13Z pierpa_: what CL does not have it can be added 2018-04-07T02:21:38Z LdBeth: iqubic: monads are just lambdas 2018-04-07T02:23:34Z iqubic: LdBeth: That's not true? 2018-04-07T02:23:47Z jealousmonk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T02:23:50Z slyrus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:24:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:24:15Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-07T02:25:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:27:25Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T02:27:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:30:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:32:45Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:34:07Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:34:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:35:10Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:35:16Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T02:35:43Z voidlily joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:37:27Z White_Flame: Is EOF the only situation in which read-sequence returns less than the requested length? Does TCP packetization ever cause this to return partially filled sequences? 2018-04-07T02:39:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:40:08Z safe joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:40:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:40:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:41:21Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:43:33Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:43:33Z lemoinem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T02:44:23Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-04-07T02:45:39Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:45:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T02:48:44Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T02:51:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:53:25Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T02:54:04Z asarch: What about this White_Flame?: https://gist.github.com/shortsightedsid/71cf34282dfae0dd2528 2018-04-07T02:54:34Z White_Flame: that's calling read-line, not read-sequence 2018-04-07T02:56:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 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drdo cess11_ exit70 zymurgy manumanumanu micro_ Tordek Nikotiin1 |3b| mulk djh mfiano cpape johs convexferret devlaf alms_clozure ggherdov flip214 tazjin gingerale gendl Duns_Scrotus Mon_Ouie whartung CEnnis91 Xof p_l borodust theBlackDragon zkat jeremyheiler azrazalea elts mjl billstclair d4gg4d_ asedeno XachX jyc Meow-J_ tfb trig-ger tobel angular_mike_ ft otwieracz lxpz michalisko stux|RC-- shaftoe ghostyy Mandus gabot xristos spacepluk 2018-04-07T02:59:44Z names: azahi PyroLagus abbe GGMethos stnutt gko @fe[nl]ix Blkt cpt_nemo sbryant rjeli_ renard_ dxtr z0d ircbrowse_ gorgor_ bitch White_Flame tokenrove parseval bailon samebchase raydeejay jurov snits_ jself eMBee catern Ziemas peccu3 Rovanion 2018-04-07T03:00:57Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:01:05Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:01:27Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:01:28Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:01:38Z TMA joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:01:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:02:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:04:17Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:05:33Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T03:06:09Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:08:41Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:11:14Z jcowan: White_Flame: I read the phrase "which might be less than end because the end of file was reached" as meaning that there is no other reason why the returned value would be less than 'end'. 2018-04-07T03:11:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:13:44Z mathrick joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:15:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:15:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:18:03Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:21:19Z LdBeth: iqubic: the original monad paper uses lambda to explain the idea 2018-04-07T03:21:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:22:43Z LdBeth: Monad itself is proved in lambda calculus 2018-04-07T03:26:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:30:33Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T03:34:19Z pierpa_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-07T03:35:41Z Louge joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:36:21Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:36:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:41:25Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T03:41:42Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:41:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:43:15Z pioneer42 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-07T03:44:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:45:38Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T03:45:48Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:45:53Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:46:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T03:47:11Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:47:46Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T03:48:44Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T03:49:57Z varjag quit (Ping 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2018-04-07T04:12:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:12:44Z drot joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:12:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:14:37Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:15:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:16:11Z presiden quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:17:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:17:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:20:17Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T04:21:12Z presiden joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:23:04Z on_ion: caveman2 -- nice ! 2018-04-07T04:23:19Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:25:34Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:26:09Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:26:42Z ldb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T04:27:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T04:27:36Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:27:44Z emaczen joined #lisp 2018-04-07T04:29:09Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 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always similar to learn 2018-04-07T04:59:11Z LdBeth: something 2018-04-07T05:00:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T05:01:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:03:37Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T05:09:45Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-07T05:11:05Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:11:05Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-07T05:11:05Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:11:42Z elderK: Hey guys! 2018-04-07T05:12:05Z ldb: yes 2018-04-07T05:12:05Z elderK: I'm trying to understand why some code is using a macro, rather than an ordinary function. Perhaps you can shed some light on the question. 2018-04-07T05:12:14Z elderK: Source here, dlist-push, https://github.com/krzysz00/dlist/blob/master/modification.lisp 2018-04-07T05:12:31Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T05:13:29Z ldb: have you used MACROEXPAND-1, elderK? 2018-04-07T05:13:39Z elderK: No, I haven't. 2018-04-07T05:13:47Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:14:26Z epony: verisimilitude Have you met your soul mate in assembler land? 2018-04-07T05:16:43Z verisimilitude: No. 2018-04-07T05:17:21Z verisimilitude: Why do you ask? 2018-04-07T05:17:29Z ldb: elderK: then try it. https://pastebin.com/P5KNKJCt 2018-04-07T05:17:29Z elderK: ldb: Reading the macro, I think I get what he's going for. The input 'dlist' might be bound to nil. If it were a normal function, he wouldn't be able to change that. So, he's using the macro so that he can update the binding. 2018-04-07T05:18:03Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T05:18:22Z epony: verisimilitude saw your posts in ##asm 2018-04-07T05:19:52Z LdBeth: elderK: I don’t see it takes a clever approach, the IF statement can be omitted during expension 2018-04-07T05:19:58Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T05:20:17Z LdBeth: according to MACROEXPAND result 2018-04-07T05:20:42Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:20:58Z elderK: LdBeth: You mean the code could expand differently depending on whether whatever was passed in, was falsey or not? I agree. 2018-04-07T05:21:04Z epony: There might be slightly higher chance of finding assembler aware people programming skillfully lisp, than lisp skilled people programming assembler. 2018-04-07T05:22:02Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T05:22:07Z LdBeth: Then what he get is a FORTH expert wwww 2018-04-07T05:22:18Z elderK: LdBeth: His code semi-answer a question of mine. I was wondering how you emulate pointers, rather than pure references. 2018-04-07T05:22:41Z elderK: Like, function(&some_list_to_populate). 2018-04-07T05:22:42Z LdBeth: elderK: yup 2018-04-07T05:22:48Z elderK: So, you'd use macros in this case? 2018-04-07T05:23:07Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:23:10Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:23:12Z elderK: When I was playing in Scheme, I had to "box" things to achieve a similar result. 2018-04-07T05:24:07Z LdBeth: Macro is definitely easier to understand compared to using closure 2018-04-07T05:24:39Z LdBeth: But macro can’t be funcalled 2018-04-07T05:26:28Z elderK: LdBeth: I'm not sure how to best achieve the following: I have a function, it takes two parameters. First, is some input value. Second, is a list to populate. I imagine you could say (func 1 var) where var is bound to something like the result of (list) ? 2018-04-07T05:27:08Z phoe: felideon: list to populate? what do you mean? 2018-04-07T05:27:29Z LdBeth: phoe: something like PUSH 2018-04-07T05:27:39Z phoe: you could go with (defun func (input-value &optional (list '())) ...) 2018-04-07T05:27:40Z elderK: phoe: I figure that was directed to me :) I mean, based on the input, the function will add one or more things to the list. 2018-04-07T05:27:50Z phoe: woops, worry, correct 2018-04-07T05:27:59Z phoe: elderK: good, then the above definition stands correct 2018-04-07T05:28:00Z elderK: I.e. The list you pass into the function, is denoting where we will write output. 2018-04-07T05:28:22Z elderK: Why would I do that? The list is not optional :) 2018-04-07T05:28:22Z phoe: inside FUNC, you can functionally modify the list, and return the new one 2018-04-07T05:28:35Z phoe: elderK: for a sane default value 2018-04-07T05:28:37Z phoe: if the list is empty 2018-04-07T05:28:39Z elderK: In other words, the list is an output parameter. 2018-04-07T05:28:52Z phoe: oh, so you want to *destructively* modify the output 2018-04-07T05:29:08Z phoe: it won't work if you want to append conses to its front. 2018-04-07T05:29:30Z elderK: Yes. 2018-04-07T05:29:43Z elderK: In C, 2018-04-07T05:29:48Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T05:29:50Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:29:54Z elderK: list l; f(input, &l) 2018-04-07T05:30:00Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-07T05:30:05Z phoe: yes. you can't take addresses in Lisp. 2018-04-07T05:30:17Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:30:35Z elderK: Yup. I am asking how I would achieve such a thing in Lisp. And, of various ways, which is the preferred. 2018-04-07T05:30:50Z phoe: you need to take one more step of indirection so you can modify the reference of your output list. 2018-04-07T05:31:05Z elderK: So, boxing? 2018-04-07T05:31:14Z phoe: boxing, yep - the simplest box is a cons cell 2018-04-07T05:31:30Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:31:37Z verisimilitude: Would you rephrase that, epony? 2018-04-07T05:31:46Z phoe: so your input can be in form of (nil . input) where the CAR of this cons cell can be anything and the CDR is arbitrarily modifiable 2018-04-07T05:31:48Z epony: no. 2018-04-07T05:31:56Z phoe: and you can destructively modify that. 2018-04-07T05:32:05Z elderK: phoe: That sounds kinda painful? 2018-04-07T05:32:08Z verisimilitude: Alright, then. 2018-04-07T05:33:13Z elderK: I was thinking of creating a doubly-linked list type of my own, with push-back/front pop-back/front. So that, yknow, insertion and stuff would be O(1). The list would then be an instance - and it could be modified inside functions. 2018-04-07T05:33:33Z phoe: yep, utilizing a box in form of an instance is doable, too 2018-04-07T05:33:44Z phoe: since you can then modify its slot 2018-04-07T05:33:52Z elderK: Yeah. Makes sense :) Thank you. 2018-04-07T05:34:31Z elderK: About loop collect, btw. CLHS says that each element collected is added to the end of the list, rather than consed onto the front. That sounds pretty painful, if you're collecting a lot of stuff. 2018-04-07T05:34:33Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T05:35:39Z verisimilitude: You can maintain the end of the list, elderK. 2018-04-07T05:35:44Z LdBeth: elderK: you can just do a nrevers, which is really quick 2018-04-07T05:36:02Z LdBeth: NREVERSE 2018-04-07T05:36:22Z LdBeth: never need a dlist 2018-04-07T05:36:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:36:52Z elderK: verisimilitude: Track the tail and add only to it? 2018-04-07T05:36:56Z phoe: elderK: no, just collect to the front and then nreverse the list which is O(n) 2018-04-07T05:36:58Z verisimilitude: Yes, elderK. 2018-04-07T05:37:13Z elderK: verisimilitude: I was hoping collect would do something like that :) 2018-04-07T05:37:23Z verisimilitude: A good LOOP implementation probably will, yes. 2018-04-07T05:37:27Z rme: You see both ways, and both are fine. Build the list backwards, than nreverse at the end, or else keep track of the tail of the list and build it up via rplacd/(setf cdr), as the collect clause of the loop macro typically does. 2018-04-07T05:37:37Z elderK: As for populating some list, then reversing it, that requires an extra cycle through the list. 2018-04-07T05:37:54Z phoe: (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect i) pushes 0 to NIL, then 1 to (0), then 2 to (1 0), then 3 to (2 1 0), ..., then nreverses (10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0) 2018-04-07T05:38:03Z verisimilitude: A cursory glance shows that SBCL and ECL do. 2018-04-07T05:38:27Z phoe: elderK: in practice it's fast enough compared to the others 2018-04-07T05:38:42Z elderK: Aye. I'm just splitting hairs :) 2018-04-07T05:38:47Z verisimilitude: That's still O(1) compared to O(n). 2018-04-07T05:38:50Z phoe: since if we're dealing with lists that have thousands of elements then something goes seriously wrong elsewhere in your code 2018-04-07T05:39:11Z elderK: verisimilitude: The tracking the tail? Yeah, it would be O(1). 2018-04-07T05:39:28Z phoe: verisimilitude: except your O(1) has a higher constant cost than my O(n) 2018-04-07T05:39:33Z LdBeth: Because usually we don’t use a lot of lists in CL 2018-04-07T05:39:33Z verisimilitude: No good LOOP implementation would actually use NREVERSE when it could instead do this. 2018-04-07T05:39:43Z verisimilitude: It's just a single pointer, phoe. 2018-04-07T05:40:00Z verisimilitude: So, both have O(1) space considerations, not counting the actual list. 2018-04-07T05:40:05Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-07T05:40:12Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T05:40:33Z elderK: LdBeth: Aye. Use the right ADT for the job :) It's just sometimes, a list is exactly what is required. Preferably one that isn't slow to push to the end of :D 2018-04-07T05:41:17Z elderK: Thank you for answering my questions :) 2018-04-07T05:42:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-07T05:43:08Z elderK: Good Morning beach! 2018-04-07T05:43:20Z verisimilitude: Hello, beach. 2018-04-07T05:43:51Z LdBeth: Morning 2018-04-07T05:48:57Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T05:51:20Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T05:51:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T05:53:08Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T05:53:26Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:59:06Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T05:59:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T06:03:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:04:31Z omps joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:06:03Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T06:08:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:11:17Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T06:11:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:13:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T06:14:17Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:27:54Z elderK: :) Any advice on which unit testing framework to use? The wiki seems to recommend either FiveAM or Prove. 2018-04-07T06:28:07Z verisimilitude: My advice is to write one yourself. 2018-04-07T06:28:08Z elderK: Prove seems pretty nice 2018-04-07T06:28:35Z elderK: :P 2018-04-07T06:32:23Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell elderK look up parachute 2018-04-07T06:32:23Z Colleen: elderK: About parachute https://shinmera.github.io/parachute#about_parachute 2018-04-07T06:34:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:35:51Z beach: Shinmera: Is that one of your projects? 2018-04-07T06:35:57Z phoe: beach: it is 2018-04-07T06:36:18Z beach: Shinmera: Does it support the kind of random testing that I like? 2018-04-07T06:36:47Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:36:58Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not sure what a framework would need to have in order to support or not support it. 2018-04-07T06:37:13Z beach: Neither am I. 2018-04-07T06:37:29Z phoe: beach: do you have some examples of your random tests? 2018-04-07T06:37:31Z beach: Which is why I have not been using any testing frameworl. 2018-04-07T06:37:50Z beach: phoe: Sure. Look in the Cluffer repository for example. 2018-04-07T06:38:13Z Shinmera: I would be interested in making it have explicit support for it, but right now I'm neck deep in thesis work, so maybe after this month's over I'll think about it. 2018-04-07T06:38:49Z beach: phoe: Basically, to test some abstract data type, I implement a trivial (but slow) version of it. Then I emit random operations on both of them and check that the result is the same. 2018-04-07T06:39:10Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, sure. No rush. 2018-04-07T06:40:35Z beach: phoe: It is tricky, because the randomness must have some memory so that there is a certain probability of long sequences of the same operation. So I use a Markov process to emit operations. 2018-04-07T06:43:13Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer/blob/master/Test/test-standard-buffer.lisp#L57 2018-04-07T06:43:34Z phoe: That is what I see. And I don't know of a framework that would support that. 2018-04-07T06:44:10Z siraben quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.91)) 2018-04-07T06:44:40Z Shinmera: Parachute could certainly be made to support that. 2018-04-07T06:44:56Z Shinmera: Well, it could support it right now, just not conveniently :) 2018-04-07T06:46:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T06:46:05Z phoe: Shinmera: s/support that/explicitly support that/ 2018-04-07T06:52:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T06:57:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:02:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:02:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:04:41Z verisimilitude quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-07T07:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:06:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:10:02Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T07:15:25Z bjorkint0sh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T07:15:40Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:20:08Z kqr joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:20:55Z kqr: sooo... what testing frameworks are recommended? I'm looking at doing property testing with check-it, but it wants to be embedded in a framework 2018-04-07T07:21:00Z elderK: Shinmera: Parachute looks nice. How is it rendering the tick-signs? 2018-04-07T07:21:03Z kqr: well, wants is the wrong word. I'd prefer it to* 2018-04-07T07:21:14Z elderK: Does it behave if you're not on a Unicode-aware terminal? :D 2018-04-07T07:22:44Z leighzi joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:24:31Z elderK: Shinmera: Looks really nice, even. :) 2018-04-07T07:24:34Z elderK: Great work! 2018-04-07T07:26:31Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:27:16Z fourier: kqr: im using prove, its simple and good 2018-04-07T07:27:54Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:30:52Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:31:19Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:31:22Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-07T07:32:02Z ldb quit (Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc) 2018-04-07T07:32:22Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:32:37Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:33:11Z ldb: just assembled a simple irc clinet 2018-04-07T07:33:27Z ldb: *client* 2018-04-07T07:33:58Z leighzi: (defparameter spelling-correct nil) 2018-04-07T07:34:18Z kqr: fourier, thank you, will look into it! 2018-04-07T07:34:57Z omps quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:35:08Z elderK: kqr: Same question as me :) 2018-04-07T07:35:14Z elderK: kqr: I like the look of prove and parachute. 2018-04-07T07:36:07Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-07T07:36:22Z ldb: i need a spell checker 2018-04-07T07:36:28Z leighzi: write one 2018-04-07T07:36:40Z elderK: aspell? :) 2018-04-07T07:37:28Z ldb: or a lineditor with spell checker support 2018-04-07T07:38:27Z madmalik joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:38:27Z ldb: yes i need to write one. most lineditor don't support CJK chars 2018-04-07T07:39:24Z iqubic: Do you need CJK support? 2018-04-07T07:40:00Z LdBeth: Yes. I’m Chinese 2018-04-07T07:40:27Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:41:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:42:57Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:52:16Z leighzi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T07:52:17Z phoe: My UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE form is indented like https://pastebin.com/BHvhhctd 2018-04-07T07:52:21Z phoe: How can I fix it? 2018-04-07T07:55:46Z Shinmera: elderK: It's just unicode. ✓ 2018-04-07T07:56:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T07:57:06Z Shinmera: phoe: Gotta let Slime know via trivial-indent 2018-04-07T07:57:17Z phoe: (trivial-indent:define-indentation uiop:define-package (2 &body)) 2018-04-07T07:57:31Z phoe: and nothing seems to change 2018-04-07T07:57:41Z phoe: the form is still indented the same way 2018-04-07T07:59:55Z Shinmera: Hmm, odd. 2018-04-07T08:00:03Z rme: I hate to ask, but what's wrong with cl:defpackage that makes you want to use this other thing? 2018-04-07T08:00:19Z phoe: rme: :REEXPORT option in UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE 2018-04-07T08:00:23Z phoe: therefore, convenience 2018-04-07T08:00:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T08:01:13Z phoe: also DEFINE-PACKAGE does not complain if symbol FOO is exported from package but then I write defpackage's :export without including FOO 2018-04-07T08:01:37Z mfiano: As a side note, me and a friend recently patched defpackage+ to support package-local-nicknames with a graceful fallback if not supported on an implementation. Definitely not perfect, but it's useful. 2018-04-07T08:01:39Z phoe: on SBCL, it produces a warning in defpackage; define-package just silently unexports that symbol. 2018-04-07T08:10:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:16:47Z malice joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:20:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T08:20:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:22:05Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-07T08:22:44Z phoe: What is the way to remove a defined condition from a Lisp image? 2018-04-07T08:22:52Z phoe: (define-condition foo () ()) 2018-04-07T08:23:17Z Shinmera: (setf (find-class 'foo) NIL) 2018-04-07T08:24:22Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:24:58Z phoe: (defun test () (define-condition g638 () ()) (setf (find-class 'g638) nil)) 2018-04-07T08:25:13Z phoe: Compile-time error: attempt to dump reference to obsolete class: # 2018-04-07T08:25:16Z phoe: woop, I found a bug 2018-04-07T08:27:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T08:29:01Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:30:37Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T08:33:59Z phoe: hey, it gets better, (defun test () (define-condition foo () ())) 2018-04-07T08:34:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:34:08Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:34:12Z phoe: It is valid to DEFINE-CONDITION not at toplevel, right? 2018-04-07T08:34:31Z phoe: because this thing compiles perfectly in REPL but fails when C-c C-c'd from inside SLIME. 2018-04-07T08:34:36Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T08:34:56Z varjagg quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-07T08:35:14Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:35:27Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T08:35:47Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:35:48Z pyericz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T08:39:42Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:40:36Z glv joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:41:49Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:43:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:44:57Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T08:45:17Z LdBeth: phoe: must be SLIME’s problem because direct eval to this sexp with SLY just works 2018-04-07T08:45:41Z phoe: LdBeth: I don't suspect slime, I suspect the compiler. 2018-04-07T08:46:04Z Shinmera: C-c C-c performs a compile-file/load, not an eval. 2018-04-07T08:46:27Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T08:46:47Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/2NXM4iDa - see line 25 of this file, step 5 in backtrace. 2018-04-07T08:47:19Z phoe: It's actually LOADing a fasl. 2018-04-07T08:47:34Z LdBeth: If interpreted eval works, there are no reasons for compile failure 2018-04-07T08:47:55Z phoe: LdBeth: if only Lisp was this simple and easy (: 2018-04-07T08:48:19Z phoe: it must be something on the fasl boundary. something doesn't get written to the compiled fasl or something doesn't get read from it. 2018-04-07T08:50:37Z LdBeth: phoe: do you use SBCL? 2018-04-07T08:50:44Z phoe: LdBeth: t 2018-04-07T08:51:18Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:51:39Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-07T08:53:33Z LdBeth: phoe: well then that’s strange because SBCL compiles every sexps it executes even in repl 2018-04-07T08:53:52Z Shinmera: compile is not the same as compile-file 2018-04-07T08:54:10Z Shinmera: the error is specifically about dumping. 2018-04-07T08:55:57Z malice: It works for me in 1.4.6, phoe has 1.4.4. 2018-04-07T08:56:14Z phoe: yes, let me upgrade. 2018-04-07T08:56:44Z LdBeth: Reproduced in 1.4.0 2018-04-07T09:00:39Z phoe: malice: nope, reproduced in 1.4.6 2018-04-07T09:01:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:01:14Z elderK: Guys, I'm having trouble finding information on the :perform clause of ASDF files. 2018-04-07T09:01:23Z elderK: I'm reading through ASDF's manual - and :perform and such is in the grammar. 2018-04-07T09:01:44Z elderK: But there's little explanation as to what it is about. I see that there are special operation objects, which methods are specialized on. 2018-04-07T09:01:50Z elderK: But that doesn't really explain :perform :| 2018-04-07T09:02:07Z Shinmera: It allows you to define methods on perform specialised on your system. 2018-04-07T09:03:04Z elderK: So, that would be like defmethod with s eql to whatever my system's name is? 2018-04-07T09:03:06Z Shinmera: So a declarative way of doing (defmethod asdf:perform ((op op-name) (system (eql (asdf:find-system :my-system))) ..) 2018-04-07T09:03:08Z elderK: for say, test-op? 2018-04-07T09:03:13Z elderK: Ahh 2018-04-07T09:03:24Z elderK: Thank you, Shinmera :) 2018-04-07T09:03:37Z Shinmera: Yes, test-op hook-in is the typical case. https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/3d-vectors-test.asd#L17 2018-04-07T09:03:46Z elderK: Shinmera: As for parachute, is there a fallback incase the terminal isn't Unicode friendly? 2018-04-07T09:04:07Z Shinmera: There's a fallback if the implementation doesn't know unicode, but terminals are not ANSI, so 2018-04-07T09:04:09Z Shinmera: no 2018-04-07T09:04:35Z Shinmera: In my opinion if any part of your system is not unicode capable it should be nuked 2018-04-07T09:04:42Z Shinmera: But that's just me 2018-04-07T09:05:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:07:42Z elderK: What does ssa stand for in your 3d vectors package? :) 2018-04-07T09:07:50Z elderK: static single assignment? simd? 2018-04-07T09:08:02Z elderK: I see you are defining vops. Looks like support for simd. 2018-04-07T09:08:03Z Shinmera: It was an attempt at adding simd stuff yes 2018-04-07T09:08:06Z elderK: Nice 2018-04-07T09:08:17Z elderK: I was recently wondering how matrices would be implemented in CL. 2018-04-07T09:08:23Z elderK: You've got a lot of cool stuff, Shin :) 2018-04-07T09:08:23Z Shinmera: It's not on by default 2018-04-07T09:08:29Z Shinmera: Thanks 2018-04-07T09:08:47Z Shinmera: 3d-vectors and 3d-matrices is gross code though, so beware. 2018-04-07T09:08:55Z elderK: :P I've booked you and beach on GitHub :P I intend to study the hell out of your work, to learn. 2018-04-07T09:08:56Z elderK: :) 2018-04-07T09:09:16Z spacebat1 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:09:27Z beach: elderK: I am flattered. Let me know if you have any questions. 2018-04-07T09:09:41Z elderK: beach: You too have a lot of interesting stuff :) 2018-04-07T09:09:45Z elderK: You guys are kind of like inspiration. 2018-04-07T09:09:56Z phoe: elderK: inorite? 2018-04-07T09:10:00Z elderK nods 2018-04-07T09:10:01Z elderK: :D 2018-04-07T09:10:13Z elderK: I've decided that anything I write that isn't for school, I will try and do in CL. 2018-04-07T09:10:23Z elderK: No excuses. Yes, I could do something in C or C++. But nope, gotta try and do it in CL. 2018-04-07T09:10:32Z elderK: I'm never going to learn CL or get any good at it if I don't force myself to use it for real stuff. 2018-04-07T09:10:33Z elderK: :) 2018-04-07T09:10:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:10:51Z beach: Good plan. 2018-04-07T09:13:32Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:16:10Z elderK: :) I think the first thing I'll do is write a few of my favorite ADTs. 2018-04-07T09:16:24Z elderK: Years of using C has engrained several bad habits. 2018-04-07T09:16:38Z elderK: :P So, writing my favorite ADTs in new languages is a thing I do. 2018-04-07T09:16:40Z elderK: It can be pretty fun :) 2018-04-07T09:22:02Z LdBeth: phoe: find the similar problem in cmucl 2018-04-07T09:22:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:22:19Z phoe: LdBeth: hm? what do you mean? 2018-04-07T09:22:47Z LdBeth: phoe: the compile error to define-condition in lambda 2018-04-07T09:23:07Z phoe: LdBeth: are you able to pastebin it? 2018-04-07T09:23:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:24:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:26:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:26:56Z LdBeth: phoe: https://pastebin.com/xB4Bd1bZ 2018-04-07T09:27:20Z LdBeth: It’s a warning, but I suspect they are related 2018-04-07T09:29:21Z phoe: LdBeth: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/issues/63 2018-04-07T09:30:11Z elderK: Guys, when should you create a generic method with a name like, add, instead of something prefixed like bs-tree-add? 2018-04-07T09:30:31Z malice: I guess that pretty much always 2018-04-07T09:30:40Z malice: if it's bs-tree-add then it's not too generic now is it 2018-04-07T09:30:52Z elderK: Well, no. 2018-04-07T09:31:13Z elderK: :) But when you have an avl tree, too, you'd have avl-tree-add 2018-04-07T09:31:19Z malice: I mean, I'd suspect tree-ad gf with method specialized on bs-tree or avl-tree 2018-04-07T09:31:22Z elderK: You could hide those differences by specializing on the type. 2018-04-07T09:31:32Z malice: yes 2018-04-07T09:31:54Z malice: Though there is an upside to the data-type-operation in that you can type data-type- and autocompletion will show you available functions 2018-04-07T09:31:57Z elderK: I figure it's not a big deal anyway - at the end of the day, you could always add a GF and have the specizliation call the lower-level functions, right? 2018-04-07T09:32:05Z malice: yep 2018-04-07T09:32:06Z elderK: That's a good point, malice. 2018-04-07T09:32:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:33:48Z malice: also it's generic function and not generic method 2018-04-07T09:34:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:35:06Z malice: and frankly, lisp's OOP is a bit different and because it's not mainstream, it's not as "standardized" as the OOP where dot notation exists 2018-04-07T09:35:37Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:35:39Z malice: but the general rule of thumb (as I see it) is that generic function should be as generic as possible(but not anymore than that) 2018-04-07T09:35:49Z malice: if you need avl-tree-add, create it as a function with defun 2018-04-07T09:35:57Z LdBeth: elderK: use Generics or not depends on whether and how you want you and others to extend the program 2018-04-07T09:36:06Z malice: nothing wrong with working on class instance using functions 2018-04-07T09:36:45Z malice: this comes from other languages; in the OOP world, you manipulate objects exclusively through methods, functions are just some helper stuff that doesn't touch any instance 2018-04-07T09:36:48Z malice: or its insides 2018-04-07T09:36:56Z malice: in CL, you already have these two separated 2018-04-07T09:36:59Z malice: so functions are all right 2018-04-07T09:37:03Z TMA: on the other hand the function shall do "the same" for all its specialized methods. too unspecific a name (say add instead of tree-add) might be confusing then 2018-04-07T09:37:25Z malice: That's true. 2018-04-07T09:37:43Z malice: There is also a funny thing, that you can add documentation to a generic function 2018-04-07T09:37:55Z malice: but you can also add documentation to any of methods that implement it, and they are all different 2018-04-07T09:38:03Z LdBeth: If you want, you can even use BOLCK and GOTO 2018-04-07T09:38:35Z malice: though imho it's not useful due to the fact that if you want to get documentation for a specific method, you have to get that method object, which isn't something you do often, so it's not straightforward for typical user 2018-04-07T09:40:42Z elderK: malice: Next question :) 2018-04-07T09:41:03Z elderK: When I have a class, say, and I want to access its slots, should I use slot-value or the accessor? 2018-04-07T09:41:17Z elderK: I believe there is a macro, with-slots, or something like that. 2018-04-07T09:41:19Z Shinmera: The accessor. 2018-04-07T09:41:24Z elderK: I was wondering if it makes use of the accessors or just does slot-value 2018-04-07T09:41:32Z Shinmera: with-slots uses slot-value 2018-04-07T09:41:36Z Shinmera: with-accessors uses accessors 2018-04-07T09:41:37Z elderK: I read somewhere that accessors are preferred because they can be combined. 2018-04-07T09:41:41Z elderK: Ah, awesome. 2018-04-07T09:41:45Z phoe: elderK: yep, but slots are usually implementation details, and accessors are usually the exported interface of a module. 2018-04-07T09:41:45Z elderK: Thank you, Shin :) 2018-04-07T09:41:55Z Shinmera: accessors are preferred because they are shorter to write, more idiomatic, and can perform checks/computations 2018-04-07T09:42:05Z beach: elderK: Use accessors. Slots are implementation details. 2018-04-07T09:42:06Z phoe: and do not have to refer to slots at all in the end. 2018-04-07T09:42:07Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-07T09:42:10Z Shinmera: slot-value should be used only for internals / bypassing accessors in select cases. 2018-04-07T09:42:12Z LdBeth: elderK: but there are some cases you want slot-value explicitly 2018-04-07T09:42:21Z elderK: LdBeth: Such as? 2018-04-07T09:42:38Z beach: LdBeth: Name two! 2018-04-07T09:42:42Z LdBeth: elderK: you want to bypass accessor 2018-04-07T09:43:12Z pyericz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T09:43:15Z LdBeth: beach: ? 2018-04-07T09:43:30Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:43:37Z phoe: yep, when you twiddle with the implementation details 2018-04-07T09:43:44Z beach: LdBeth: "but there are some cases you want slot-value explicitly". I am asking you to give me two such cases. 2018-04-07T09:44:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:45:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T09:47:09Z malice: elderK: you can also export accessors but not slots 2018-04-07T09:47:43Z Shinmera: you can't export either 2018-04-07T09:47:46Z Shinmera: you only export symbols 2018-04-07T09:47:51Z Shinmera: which name slots and functions 2018-04-07T09:48:08Z malice: Isn't it obvious what I meant? 2018-04-07T09:48:18Z Shinmera: Your statement is wrong in every way I can interpret it 2018-04-07T09:49:34Z malice: I meant that you can export symbols naming accessors(e.g. acc-a), but not export symbols naming slots(e.g. slot-a), so that when user tries to access slot, a condition is signalled, which encourages use of accessors 2018-04-07T09:49:39Z malice: Does that make sense? 2018-04-07T09:50:02Z Shinmera: Yes. 2018-04-07T09:50:03Z phoe: yep 2018-04-07T09:51:06Z elderK: Can you export something with a different name? 2018-04-07T09:51:10Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T09:51:18Z Shinmera: No, symbols can't have aliases. 2018-04-07T09:51:18Z elderK: Like, in the package, it's say, X. But when I export X, I give it a new public name? 2018-04-07T09:51:22Z elderK: Ah, okay. 2018-04-07T09:52:26Z malice: You can. Just bind it to new symbol and export that symbol 2018-04-07T09:52:34Z Shinmera: That's not an alias. 2018-04-07T09:52:37Z malice: (though it's "you can") 2018-04-07T09:52:38Z malice: yes 2018-04-07T09:53:04Z Shinmera: And while you can do things like tie the same function definition to a symbol, you can't do so for slots. 2018-04-07T09:53:14Z malice: If you really need to, you can try using macros for that 2018-04-07T09:53:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:53:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:53:37Z malice: (with-alias (origin newname) (print newname)) ;;same as (print origin) 2018-04-07T09:53:54Z malice: but I don't think that would be useful 2018-04-07T09:53:58Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-07T09:54:28Z Shinmera: You can do that with symbol-macros, but it will break in subtle ways when you consider quotation or runtime dereferencing. 2018-04-07T09:54:49Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T09:55:05Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:55:06Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:55:54Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-07T09:56:28Z LdBeth: beach: okay, if there is a standard instance, the slot value is fixnum, and another specialized instance with the same slot as another object, and the accessor returns 2018-04-07T09:56:57Z phoe: LdBeth: I did not understand that 2018-04-07T09:57:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:57:20Z LdBeth: beach: fixnums for both, but there is a need to access the object in the specialized instance 2018-04-07T09:57:44Z phoe: LdBeth: which object in the specialized instance? 2018-04-07T09:58:27Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((%thing :accessor thing :type fixnum))) (defclass bar (foo) ()) 2018-04-07T09:58:32Z phoe: this is how I imagine it so far 2018-04-07T09:59:15Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-07T09:59:42Z LdBeth: phoe: (deflass bar (foo) (thing :accessor thin :type super-fixnum))) 2018-04-07T09:59:58Z Shinmera: What is super-fixnum? 2018-04-07T10:00:30Z LdBeth: While super-fixnum is a subclass of fixnum 2018-04-07T10:00:32Z elderK: Thanks peeps :) 2018-04-07T10:01:03Z Shinmera: fixnum isn't a class 2018-04-07T10:01:32Z LdBeth: Just a case 2018-04-07T10:01:35Z phoe: LdBeth: so you have four classes in there 2018-04-07T10:02:43Z phoe: (defclass foo-thing () ()) (defclass bar-thing (foo-thing) ()) (defclass quux () ((%thing :accessor thing :type foo-thing))) (defclass fred (quux) ((%thing :accessor thing :type bar-thing))) 2018-04-07T10:02:54Z phoe: something like that? 2018-04-07T10:03:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T10:03:29Z phoe: if yes, then the generic function #'THING always returns something of type FOO-THING 2018-04-07T10:04:05Z phoe: additionally if (TYPEP X 'FRED) then you know that (THING X) will return a BAR-THING 2018-04-07T10:04:34Z LdBeth: phoe: The accessor THING for FRED should return a standard FOO-THING 2018-04-07T10:05:37Z LdBeth: because in practical like Shinmera says, fixnum is not a class 2018-04-07T10:06:44Z phoe: LdBeth: what? 2018-04-07T10:06:52Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:06:58Z phoe: each BAR-THING is a FOO-THING because BAR-THING is a subclass of FOO-THING 2018-04-07T10:07:06Z phoe: so the accessor THING for FRED returns a FOO-THING 2018-04-07T10:07:18Z LdBeth: Please allow me write down the code 2018-04-07T10:07:26Z phoe: okiedokie 2018-04-07T10:07:32Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T10:07:52Z malice: Isn't there a rule that in subclasses, the type of the slot needs to be the subtype of the same slot in its superclasses? 2018-04-07T10:08:33Z Shinmera: slot types are mostly disregarded 2018-04-07T10:08:39Z glv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T10:08:41Z malice: That's the other thing 2018-04-07T10:09:20Z Shinmera: "The contents of a slot will always be of type (and T1 ... Tn) where T1 ...Tn are the values of the :type slot options contained in all of the slot specifiers. If no slot specifier contains the :type slot option, the contents of the slot will always be of type t. The consequences of attempting to store in a slot a value that does not satisfy the type of the slot are undefined." 2018-04-07T10:09:24Z Shinmera: clhs 7.5.3 2018-04-07T10:09:25Z specbot: Inheritance of Slots and Slot Options: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ec.htm 2018-04-07T10:09:26Z elderK: To be crazy, is there any specific order people like to have things sorted when defining slots? 2018-04-07T10:09:33Z elderK: Like, :documentation before :initargs before :initform ? 2018-04-07T10:09:37Z elderK: Or is it largely irrelevent? 2018-04-07T10:09:39Z elderK: :) 2018-04-07T10:10:00Z elderK: Pretty much in all the source I read, :documentation is last. 2018-04-07T10:10:24Z Shinmera: I use (slot [initform] [initarg] [accessor/reader/writer]) 2018-04-07T10:10:58Z elderK: Sweet. Thank you. 2018-04-07T10:11:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:11:08Z elderK: What's the deal with line breaking wrt documentation strings? 2018-04-07T10:11:13Z Shinmera: I don't document slots because nobody looks at that. I write references to the accessors for slots into the class' docstring, and obviously add docstrings for accessors. 2018-04-07T10:11:42Z Shinmera: What do you mean, "what's the deal"? 2018-04-07T10:11:50Z elderK: How do you add docstrings to the accessors? I mean, doesn't defclass generate thsoe? 2018-04-07T10:12:00Z elderK: Sorry. I mean, how do people do it? 2018-04-07T10:12:05Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'accessor 'function) "skdjghksdjdgh") 2018-04-07T10:12:06Z Shinmera: (setf (documentation 'accessor-name 'function) "bla bla") 2018-04-07T10:12:15Z Shinmera: Or just use documentation-utils 2018-04-07T10:12:16Z elderK: In C, you can just say something like "sfasd" "asdfsa", the second part could be on another line. 2018-04-07T10:12:19Z phoe: where ACCESSOR is the name of the accessor 2018-04-07T10:12:20Z elderK: Ah, cool. 2018-04-07T10:12:21Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up documentation-utils 2018-04-07T10:12:21Z Colleen: About documentation-utils https://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils#about_documentation-utils 2018-04-07T10:12:29Z phoe: also Shinmera has a toolkit for dealing with that 2018-04-07T10:12:32Z phoe: exactly this one 2018-04-07T10:12:44Z elderK: :) I noted it was a dependency of parachute. 2018-04-07T10:13:51Z Shinmera: It's a dependency of most of all my newer projects. 2018-04-07T10:14:04Z elderK: Does with-slots / with-accessors work for structs? 2018-04-07T10:14:50Z elderK: BTW, thank you for answering all of my questions. I know they're all probably very simple. I really appreciate it :) 2018-04-07T10:14:54Z Shinmera: it might but it's not specified. 2018-04-07T10:14:59Z elderK nods 2018-04-07T10:15:00Z Shinmera: clhs slot-value 2018-04-07T10:15:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2018-04-07T10:15:13Z elderK: This is why I don't just try things in my impl. and accept it as gospel :) 2018-04-07T10:15:18Z Shinmera: "The specific behavior depends on object's metaclass. An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class. An error is always signaled if object has metaclass built-in-class. The consequences are unspecified if object has any other metaclass--an error might or might not be signaled in this situation. Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified." 2018-04-07T10:15:56Z elderK: Aha. Not specified. 2018-04-07T10:15:59Z elderK: Beat me to it! 2018-04-07T10:16:01Z elderK: :) 2018-04-07T10:17:17Z elderK: Is using (values ...) considered expensive? 2018-04-07T10:17:30Z Shinmera: Typically only the single-value return case is optimised. 2018-04-07T10:17:48Z Shinmera: So using multiple values is probably going to be more expensive, but you'll have to profile on your implementation. 2018-04-07T10:18:05Z malice: elderK: is it? 2018-04-07T10:18:17Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T10:18:18Z elderK: I'm trying to think of how I'll return stuff when I do my tree insertion. If I do iterative, no biggy. If I do it recursive, then things will be different as each call to %tree-add or whatever will return the reference to a node. 2018-04-07T10:18:21Z malice: is using (print ...) expensive? 2018-04-07T10:18:26Z elderK: malice: :P 2018-04-07T10:18:38Z malice: if (values ...) is your bottleneck, then I've got a bad news for you 2018-04-07T10:18:39Z LdBeth: phoe: finally https://pastebin.com/q5arNxnz 2018-04-07T10:18:58Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T10:19:04Z Shinmera: malice: Compared to simply returning things yes. 2018-04-07T10:19:27Z malice: Or not. Both run so fast I wouldn't notice. 2018-04-07T10:19:34Z malice: The speed always depends on the context 2018-04-07T10:20:07Z pyericz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T10:20:37Z LdBeth: malice: because print some data structure means recursively expand them 2018-04-07T10:23:17Z malice: LdBeth: ? 2018-04-07T10:24:51Z LdBeth: malice: for example passing a long list is just pass a reference, and print it mean you need to go through CAR and CDR recursively 2018-04-07T10:24:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:25:29Z malice: Yes, but I don't understand what you're trying t tell me 2018-04-07T10:26:08Z malice: I asked about the (print) as a rhetorical figure to demonstrate my point, that cost is relative to the task 2018-04-07T10:26:38Z malice: So the question like "Is Common Lisp fast?" is actually an invalid question, imho 2018-04-07T10:26:57Z elderK: God damn it's going to take me ages to get used to not having pointers. At least, not with the freedom I'm used to. 2018-04-07T10:26:58Z elderK: :D 2018-04-07T10:27:38Z Shinmera: I find having pointers a nuisance 2018-04-07T10:27:54Z elderK: Perhaps I will feel that way too, in time. 2018-04-07T10:28:01Z LdBeth: Umm. So VALUES costs some but it is better than return a cons cell 2018-04-07T10:28:02Z elderK: But for now: I'm very used to being able to use and abuse them for all kinds of handy purposes. 2018-04-07T10:28:25Z elderK: :P I feel equally restricted in Java. 2018-04-07T10:28:27Z elderK shudders 2018-04-07T10:28:36Z elderK: (University /loves/ Java.) 2018-04-07T10:28:49Z malice: In what ways? 2018-04-07T10:28:54Z LdBeth: If it is implemented correctly 2018-04-07T10:29:03Z elderK: :) I'm headed off. 2018-04-07T10:29:06Z elderK: Thanks for your help! :) 2018-04-07T10:29:12Z malice: LdBeth: I don't think that matters. 2018-04-07T10:29:26Z malice: I think what's more important is the interface you're providing than the speed of this particular operation 2018-04-07T10:29:33Z elderK quit (Quit: waves) 2018-04-07T10:29:45Z malice: In the long run, the user is going to deal with values or cons all the time 2018-04-07T10:29:58Z malice: and the speed of this is just a tiny factor which he would probably simply ignore 2018-04-07T10:30:19Z malice: For example, when creating a floor function, I simply can't imagine it returning a cons cell 2018-04-07T10:30:22Z malice: even if it was faster 2018-04-07T10:30:28Z malice: it's just bad design 2018-04-07T10:30:39Z malice: and I feel that's far more important than microoptimizations 2018-04-07T10:30:56Z Shinmera: Depends on your goal of course, but you're right that typically the user should come first. 2018-04-07T10:31:21Z malice: I can't really imagine any goal that would make it worthwhile 2018-04-07T10:31:32Z malice: look at Python, it's *relatively slow*, so are its libraries 2018-04-07T10:31:35Z malice: yet it is widely popular 2018-04-07T10:31:40Z LdBeth: Hard to say 2018-04-07T10:31:49Z malice: because if you need speed, you get that where you need it(c libs and stuff) 2018-04-07T10:31:50Z Shinmera: fortran's APIs are pretty annoying to use, but they are that way for good reason. 2018-04-07T10:32:02Z Shinmera: people still use it for numerics today 2018-04-07T10:32:20Z malice: Yes. I don't know fortran though. Plus saying that people still use it is a bit of a stretch 2018-04-07T10:32:28Z Shinmera: nah 2018-04-07T10:32:34Z LdBeth: And in the old day people use FORTRAN to write EMACS! 2018-04-07T10:33:04Z Shinmera: People still use fortran and its numerical libraries. 2018-04-07T10:33:45Z malice: Yes, they do. But I don't think that it's popular, and I think that many of them use it for different reasons 2018-04-07T10:33:48Z malice: (not knowing any better) 2018-04-07T10:33:58Z LdBeth: But no one would use is as a general purpose language 2018-04-07T10:34:13Z malice: but this may be my subjective opinion derived from my observations 2018-04-07T10:34:31Z LdBeth: Luckily Lisp is not restricted to AI 2018-04-07T10:35:22Z malice: Yeah, you can see how languages like Python are used all over the place for the machine learning, where you need things to be *fast* because you compute so much 2018-04-07T10:35:58Z malice: but it doesn't mather if it's in Python, Lisp or Brainfuck if at the end the number-crunching is done via some Fortran library 2018-04-07T10:36:21Z malice: And CL's probably never gonna get that fast to be used for this purpose 2018-04-07T10:37:40Z Shinmera: Well, heisig is doing high performance computing with Lisp for instance 2018-04-07T10:38:24Z LdBeth: I have point out that CL can also call foreign libraries for specialized tasks 2018-04-07T10:39:01Z heisig hears his name. 2018-04-07T10:40:20Z heisig: malics: I see no technical reason why CL should be slower than e.g. Fortran. 2018-04-07T10:40:42Z malice: probably GC 2018-04-07T10:40:51Z malice: but it also depends on the context 2018-04-07T10:40:54Z Shinmera: GC shouldn't trigger if you don't cons 2018-04-07T10:41:07Z heisig: malice: When you provide type annotations, the CL compiler has the same knowledge as a C++ or Fortran compiler. 2018-04-07T10:41:20Z heisig: And yes, you just avoid consing in HPC code. 2018-04-07T10:41:38Z beach: malice: What Shinmera said. Plus, if you need GC in Lisp you would need the equivalent of malloc/free in some other language, and those are slower than GC in general. 2018-04-07T10:42:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T10:43:30Z malice: I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate in here. I am aware type annotations help a lot and that malloc/free can be really bad in terms of performance 2018-04-07T10:43:44Z LdBeth: I’m also interested in One Reference Only approach 2018-04-07T10:44:40Z heisig: Admittedly, Lisp compilers are not (yet) as good as GCC, Clang or ICC when it comes to number crunching. 2018-04-07T10:44:50Z LdBeth: malice: what you said are situations 2018-04-07T10:45:48Z beach: LdBeth: What is "One Reference Only" approach? 2018-04-07T10:47:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T10:48:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:49:34Z LdBeth: beach: copy by values and discard memories right after no reference. Since each object is referenced once, there are no needs for GC or reference count 2018-04-07T10:49:52Z beach: LdBeth: But that would be WAY slower than GC. 2018-04-07T10:50:23Z beach: LdBeth: Plus, it is much harder to get the semantics right then. 2018-04-07T10:50:36Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:51:27Z beach: LdBeth: A simple assignment usually takes a single register-to-register instruction. If you copy objects, you need to allocate memory, and access all the slots, so many more memory accesses. 2018-04-07T10:51:48Z LdBeth: beach: about slow, the approach is allocate a larger chuck memory and recycles memories from the chunck 2018-04-07T10:52:05Z beach: LdBeth: Just accessing memory is very expensive these days. 2018-04-07T10:52:16Z beach: This is exactly the reason why I often say "It is impossible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast". 2018-04-07T10:52:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T10:53:11Z beach: LdBeth: Like I said, every assignment turns into multiple memory references. The same thing holds for every argument passing. 2018-04-07T10:53:42Z beach: LdBeth: Then, because you have duplicate objects, the cache will fill up more easily. 2018-04-07T10:53:43Z LdBeth: beach: practically it can be down with only pointer assignments 2018-04-07T10:53:59Z beach: Then you have multiple references. 2018-04-07T10:56:15Z LdBeth: beach: but unreferenced objects are `freed` immediately 2018-04-07T10:57:01Z LdBeth: GC approach also could have GC hell 2018-04-07T10:57:47Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:58:35Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-07T10:58:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T10:58:44Z LdBeth: And more destructive operations can be used 2018-04-07T11:01:50Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:02:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T11:03:02Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:03:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:03:17Z LdBeth: Yes, it is hard to get semantics right 2018-04-07T11:03:42Z LdBeth: ORO mean there would be no circular structures 2018-04-07T11:04:24Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:07:47Z DVSSA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T11:08:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:11:23Z Shinmera: So how would you do sparse graphs 2018-04-07T11:12:02Z Shinmera: Or, well, anything that actually does require multiple references. 2018-04-07T11:12:32Z LdBeth: No way 2018-04-07T11:13:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:13:21Z LdBeth: Except invent some representation 2018-04-07T11:14:26Z DVSSA joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:14:31Z LdBeth: like the '#1=(1 #1#) 2018-04-07T11:16:38Z LdBeth: Or, allow some special case 2018-04-07T11:17:15Z _death: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 2018-04-07T11:18:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:19:31Z LdBeth: _death: 👍👌 2018-04-07T11:20:09Z phoe: are we having a garbage collection discussion again 2018-04-07T11:20:27Z _death: but.. I don't like it, and especially dislike languages like Rust 2018-04-07T11:20:58Z LdBeth: _death: it has longer history than Rust 2018-04-07T11:21:14Z _death: I think my link shows that ;) 2018-04-07T11:22:27Z LdBeth: Be delighted, I first read such a concept from NewLisp, which started at 2002 2018-04-07T11:23:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:25:08Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:27:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:38:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:39:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:42:16Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:43:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:46:50Z _death: anyway, I thought this http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cmartens/thesis/ was more interesting use case for linear logic 2018-04-07T11:48:20Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T11:49:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:54:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T11:54:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:54:44Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:55:53Z LdBeth: _death: Just go for sleep, and thanks for sharing 2018-04-07T11:56:27Z LdBeth: I think Forth also takes linear logic 2018-04-07T11:56:39Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T11:59:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:00:25Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:03:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:04:54Z DVSSA quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-07T12:06:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:10:57Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-07T12:11:17Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:12:04Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:15:59Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:18:07Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:19:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:19:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:24:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:30:31Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:30:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:31:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:34:04Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T12:34:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:34:27Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T12:37:17Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-07T12:38:46Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-07T12:41:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:42:25Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:42:38Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:44:29Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-07T12:46:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:48:40Z phoe: Is there a utility function like REMOVE-DEPENDENCIES but one that retains them instead of removing? 2018-04-07T12:49:00Z phoe: (retain-dependencies '(a b c a a b d)) ;=> (A A B) ;order does not matter 2018-04-07T12:49:44Z Bike: you mean duplicates? 2018-04-07T12:49:50Z phoe: uh 2018-04-07T12:49:52Z phoe: duplicates 2018-04-07T12:49:56Z phoe: sorry, thinking of two things at once 2018-04-07T12:50:00Z Bike: anyway, i don't think so 2018-04-07T12:51:04Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:51:59Z beach: It is not hard to write though. 2018-04-07T12:53:07Z phoe: (let ((multiset '(a b c a a b d))) (reduce (lambda (x y) (remove y x :count 1)) (list* multiset (remove-duplicates multiset)))) 2018-04-07T12:53:16Z phoe: ugly and O(n²) 2018-04-07T12:53:31Z phoe: could go down to amortized O(n) with a hashtable 2018-04-07T12:55:12Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T12:55:58Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:57:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T12:59:41Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:00:08Z Shinmera: Well, if you want duplicates to be retained, (remove 1 list :key (lambda (a) (count a list))) 2018-04-07T13:00:47Z phoe: Shinmera: not that; I basically want to remove one of each kind from a list. 2018-04-07T13:01:09Z Shinmera: Okey. 2018-04-07T13:01:53Z phoe: so that (append (remove-duplicates x) (retain-duplicates x)) is equal to x, sans order of elements 2018-04-07T13:03:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T13:05:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:07:31Z beach: Do you care whether the return value is (A A B) or (A B A) or something else? 2018-04-07T13:07:35Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-07T13:07:50Z _death: could use MAPCON to add obscurity to ugliness ;) 2018-04-07T13:10:05Z Shinmera: Here's a loop oneliner I guess (loop with r = () for i in (list 1 2 3 1 3 3 4) if (find i r) collect i else do (push i r)) 2018-04-07T13:10:12Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:10:27Z phoe: beach: I don't 2018-04-07T13:10:34Z phoe: the order is not relevant 2018-04-07T13:10:58Z beach: (loop for rest on list when (member (first rest) (rest rest)) collect (first rest)) 2018-04-07T13:11:05Z beach: Still quadratic. 2018-04-07T13:11:38Z Shinmera: Mine's only O(nk) for k being the unique keys in the list. 2018-04-07T13:12:17Z Shinmera: And it would be trivially changeable to a hash-table variant. 2018-04-07T13:12:26Z phoe: okay, I don't think my lists will be longer than 20 elements anyway 2018-04-07T13:12:54Z beach: Then don't worry about it. Hash tables have a fairly large overhead anyway. 2018-04-07T13:16:53Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T13:22:46Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:25:25Z phoe: ugh 2018-04-07T13:25:33Z phoe: a non-evaluated '() is a valid list of length 1 2018-04-07T13:25:42Z phoe: #justlispthings 2018-04-07T13:26:45Z Xof: (let ((k (gensym))) (loop with r = () for i in multiset when (> (get i k 0) 0) collect i incf (get i k 0))) ; untested, O(n) in theory 2018-04-07T13:27:00Z Xof: (for symbol keys) 2018-04-07T13:27:14Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-07T13:27:40Z pfdietz: (scrolls back and reads hours-ago stuff) 2018-04-07T13:27:44Z phoe: Xof: #'GET is not O(1) though 2018-04-07T13:27:44Z Xof: ... collect i do (incf (get i k 0))))) 2018-04-07T13:27:51Z pfdietz: Prove is nice, but package name collision. 2018-04-07T13:28:05Z phoe: it reads a property *list* of a symbol, and traversing a list is linear 2018-04-07T13:28:31Z phoe: unless some implementation implements symbol properties as some sorta hash table at which point we could use a hash table anyway 2018-04-07T13:28:57Z pfdietz: I really want package local nicknames to become de facto standard. 2018-04-07T13:29:09Z Shinmera: I don't think anyone would be opposed to that 2018-04-07T13:29:49Z pfdietz: So, all public package names could be big hairy things, and if you want to use one, you nickname it locally to something short. 2018-04-07T13:30:35Z Xof: phoe: true, but in terms of n and k that is a constant 2018-04-07T13:30:53Z Xof: of course my version scales with c, the number of times you call the function :-) 2018-04-07T13:32:23Z Xof: so to fix that you could access symbol-plist directly. (I'm not seriously advocating this anyway) 2018-04-07T13:34:15Z pfdietz: I've wanted CL collecton libraries to enable a WITH-MAPPING feature, that allows one to use a field in the objects in the collection as a temporary mapping. It would default to using a hash table if someone else had already grabbed that resource. 2018-04-07T13:36:08Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T13:41:35Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:41:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T13:49:17Z gabiruh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T13:50:46Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2018-04-07T13:59:46Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T14:05:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T14:12:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:13:45Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:19:59Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T14:20:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:28:51Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2018-04-07T14:30:11Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:31:33Z shangul joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:32:33Z joh11: LdBeth: a bit late, but I use ECL on a rPi 3. I found a solution : it seems to be a known bug, resolved in the dev branch (https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/406) 2018-04-07T14:34:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:35:02Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:35:23Z pfdietz: Cool. 2018-04-07T14:35:59Z shangul: I'm going to use vim for typing Lisp codes. Is there anything which I have to know? Because many suggest Emacs instead 2018-04-07T14:36:12Z beach: shangul: Sorry to hear that. 2018-04-07T14:36:19Z phoe: shangul: vlime or slimv are what people use 2018-04-07T14:36:42Z shangul: phoe, those are editors? 2018-04-07T14:37:02Z beach: shangul: Replacements for SLIME. 2018-04-07T14:37:15Z phoe: shangul: plugins for vim that allow interaction with Lisp images. 2018-04-07T14:37:22Z shangul: beach, the common lisp implementation? 2018-04-07T14:37:36Z phoe: Lisp is an image-based programming language. SLIME is a toolkit made for interacting with that image. 2018-04-07T14:37:55Z phoe: For interactive code compilation and recompilation, debugging, tracing, inspecting. 2018-04-07T14:38:34Z phoe: Coding Lisp without such a toolkit is a major pain in the behind and strips the language of about 50% of its strengths and fun sides. 2018-04-07T14:39:32Z phoe: Lisp workflow isn't the workflow from languages like C or C++ or Java which goes like, write some code/run compiler on everything/run the resulting binary/stare at results 2018-04-07T14:39:40Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-07T14:40:06Z phoe: Lisp is interactive compared to them, you add stuff incrementally to the running Lisp image and build your program bit by bit while the previous bits are already there and working. 2018-04-07T14:40:47Z phoe: as for an implementation, what OS are you on? 2018-04-07T14:41:02Z phoe: if you're on MacOS, go for CCL; if you're on Windows or other unixlikes, grab SBCL. 2018-04-07T14:41:31Z shangul: I now have both "clisp" and "sbcl" on my machine. Also it's Ubuntu 2018-04-07T14:42:35Z shangul: phoe, where could I read more about what you called it "lisp workflow" 2018-04-07T14:45:21Z phoe: hmmmm 2018-04-07T14:46:06Z pfdietz: Common Lisp Recipes chapter 16, perhaps. But that's more nuts and bolts of things you do in a workflow. 2018-04-07T14:46:08Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T14:46:10Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:46:38Z phoe: I'm looking for a proper video that demonstrates that concept 2018-04-07T14:46:41Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:46:51Z phoe: I have some of them recorded but they are in Polish 2018-04-07T14:47:41Z pioneer42 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:48:18Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWkVvubnSI seems pretty nice for a very short demo of the REPL 2018-04-07T14:50:01Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl8jQ2wRh6k is another fun one that describes a lot of Lisp along the way 2018-04-07T14:50:24Z phoe: and shows practical coding - in this case, https://github.com/cicakhq/potato 2018-04-07T14:50:34Z phoe: check it out at https://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/ 2018-04-07T14:54:44Z beach: shangul: In summary, you typically have one or more editor buffers with source code in them, and also an editor window that runs a REPL. You can then send code from a source window to the REPL by a simple keystroke. This way, you will write a small amount of code, send it to your Common Lisp system, then switch to the REPL and immediately test what you have done. 2018-04-07T14:55:03Z beach: shangul: So there is not edit-compile-link-execute cycle. 2018-04-07T14:55:13Z beach: shangul: The program is created and tested incrementally. 2018-04-07T14:56:37Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-07T14:59:27Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T14:59:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:00:27Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:01:24Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T15:01:57Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:02:08Z beach: shangul: Any questions? 2018-04-07T15:03:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T15:06:02Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:12:02Z schjetne joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:13:52Z fourier: shangul: have a look here for typical workflow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0 2018-04-07T15:15:16Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:26:04Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T15:27:56Z beach: Maybe shangul fainted. 2018-04-07T15:30:55Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:31:27Z phoe: beach: or maybe he's watching. 2018-04-07T15:31:38Z beach: Sure, that could be. 2018-04-07T15:31:42Z phoe: Have there been any proposals for an extensible #'DOCUMENTATION generic function? 2018-04-07T15:32:00Z Bike: you mean other than the standard one? 2018-04-07T15:32:00Z beach: It already is, no? 2018-04-07T15:32:06Z phoe: So I can go (documentation 'foo 'my-documentation-type) where MY-DOCUMENTATION-TYPE is user-defined? 2018-04-07T15:32:17Z Bike: you can totally already do that, my droog 2018-04-07T15:32:26Z phoe: Oh wait, I can already define methods on it 2018-04-07T15:32:31Z phoe: WOW! 2018-04-07T15:32:39Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T15:32:45Z phoe: For some reason, I was blind to that fact. Thanks! 2018-04-07T15:32:49Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T15:39:40Z scymtym: it would still be interesting to have additional parameters for specifying things like the format or language 2018-04-07T15:40:04Z beach: Indeed. 2018-04-07T15:40:43Z beach: Now, luckily, nothing really depends on DOCUMENTATION so we can just not use it, and use something better instead. 2018-04-07T15:41:25Z phoe: or decide to extend the standard and add a &KEY to #'DOCUMENTATION 2018-04-07T15:41:59Z beach: Then you have to convince the maintainers of every Common Lisp implementation. 2018-04-07T15:43:49Z malice: and hope people will use it 2018-04-07T15:43:51Z phoe: Yep. So it would be better to do something like #'TRIVIAL-DOCUMENTATION:DOCUMENTATION that falls back to #'CL:DOCUMENTATION when it can. 2018-04-07T15:43:54Z malice: since it's non-standard 2018-04-07T15:46:10Z shangul: phoe, I'm now downloading the youtube videos 2018-04-07T15:46:37Z scymtym: the Julia people make good use of their (more) generic dispatch for a similar problem: https://docs.julialang.org/en/latest/base/io-network/#Base.Multimedia.display 2018-04-07T15:46:40Z phoe: shangul: okay. 2018-04-07T15:46:51Z shangul: beach, So the only benefit of an specified editor is that I can run my program with a single keystroke? 2018-04-07T15:46:57Z phoe: shangul: no 2018-04-07T15:47:26Z phoe: you can program it incrementally, you can use the debugger, the inspector, the stepper and various other small tools 2018-04-07T15:47:33Z beach: shangul: No. The benefit is that you can develop your program incrementally. 2018-04-07T15:47:33Z pioneer42 left #lisp 2018-04-07T15:48:09Z phoe: you can compile/link/run any program with a single keystroke if you make a trivial keybinding to something like "sh make && ./a.out" 2018-04-07T15:48:25Z phoe: except this does not give you all of the interactivity of Lisp 2018-04-07T15:50:41Z shangul: phoe, there is something which I don't understand, yet. Should I ask you or just follow the book(PCL)? 2018-04-07T15:50:51Z shangul: "you" means the channel 2018-04-07T15:50:55Z beach: shangul: The beauty of Common Lisp is that there is no distinction between compile time and run time. A program is just a series of modifications to the state of the initial image. We take advantage of this fact by making very small modifications and testing each modification before going to the next one. 2018-04-07T15:51:17Z beach: shangul: You can ask here. If the question is not suitable, you will be told. 2018-04-07T15:51:26Z phoe: shangul: you should follow PCL, yep. just make sure to get yourself a proper editor&environment first. 2018-04-07T15:51:57Z phoe: https://portacle.github.io/ is the suggested environment for beginners. It's an emacs+sbcl+slime+quicklisp+git distribution. 2018-04-07T15:52:50Z beach: shangul: Also, let me point out an important thing. If you decide to use an editor other than Emacs, and by doing so you end up with code that is badly indented, you will be told to indent it correctly if you try to submit it for people here to read. 2018-04-07T15:54:04Z shangul: well I see that I can write my code with an editor, then compile and get a binary(and go like C/C++) or execute it with interrupter(like Python/Perl/etc) and this seems fine. 2018-04-07T15:54:30Z shangul: I mean this already seems okay. Why should I get something else and bother? 2018-04-07T15:55:01Z beach: shangul: You will understand why, once you try it and get used to it. 2018-04-07T15:55:22Z shangul: aha 2018-04-07T15:55:22Z Shinmera: phoe: Note that documentation-utils already has support for custom documentation syntax -- the only requirement being that it just converts to a string somewhere. So you can already define an extension to it that would be "backwards compatible". 2018-04-07T15:56:39Z jealousmonk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T15:57:09Z beach: shangul: Nobody forces you to do anything you don't want. We are just giving you advice, and telling you about the consequences if you don't follow this advice. 2018-04-07T15:57:58Z beach: shangul: Incremental program development and testing will make you more productive than the traditional edit-compile-link-run cycle. If you don't want to be productive, there is nothing we can do about it. 2018-04-07T15:58:27Z shangul: beach, the problem's not that I don't want. the problem's that I don't want to do what I don't have any reason to. and that's probably because I've worked with other languages before 2018-04-07T15:59:25Z Shinmera: Making things more convenient sounds like a very compelling reason to me, and SLIME is exactly that. 2018-04-07T15:59:41Z Xach: I like mikel evins's analogy: interactive languages are like teaching an eager assistant, versus building from plan 2018-04-07T15:59:47Z Xach: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_clojure_programmer/d4eec68/ 2018-04-07T16:00:17Z beach: shangul: Well, stuff like that is hard appreciate without actually trying it out. So there is really no way to convince you a priori other than to ask you to trust the advice. 2018-04-07T16:00:59Z shangul: beach, okay. seems now I should just follow what you and the books says. 2018-04-07T16:01:10Z shangul: s/books/book/ 2018-04-07T16:01:27Z beach: That is what we are all hoping by giving you this advice. 2018-04-07T16:01:48Z TMA: shangul: in a sense learning to use an editor is waste of time when you are proficient enough with the card puncher 2018-04-07T16:02:15Z shangul: TMA, I don't understand. 2018-04-07T16:04:43Z segmond left #lisp 2018-04-07T16:04:49Z SenasOzys_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:05:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:05:34Z TMA: shangul: in the history computer input was performed by feeding paper cards with holes; if you were proficient with the machine for making the holes you would see no advantage in using an interactive editor for editing the programs. same way if you are proficient with the edit-compile-link-run workflow, the REPL workflow does seem worse (because it is a yet another new thing to learn) 2018-04-07T16:05:56Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T16:06:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:07:25Z pierpa_: Every time you compile and run a C/C++ program you are restarting from 0. In lisp you have a live image that you modify. You don't get all your data structures wiped away every time you have to modify a detail. 2018-04-07T16:08:11Z shangul: TMA, So you are saying because I've worked with an interactive editor I know its advantages over past methods 2018-04-07T16:08:19Z pierpa_ is now known as pierpa 2018-04-07T16:08:38Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:08:51Z TMA: shangul: yes. but because you have not worked with the REPL, you do not yet know its advantages 2018-04-07T16:08:53Z shangul: pierpa, How about interrupted languages? In these we don't need to restart from 0 2018-04-07T16:09:11Z shangul: TMA, I've got your point. 2018-04-07T16:09:13Z beach: shangul: Do you mean "interpreted"? 2018-04-07T16:09:16Z pierpa: never heard this term 2018-04-07T16:09:32Z beach: shangul: There is no such thing as "interpreted language". 2018-04-07T16:10:02Z shangul: beach, pierpa, I think I misspelled it. 2018-04-07T16:10:18Z pierpa: Ok 2018-04-07T16:10:54Z beach: shangul: Any language can be implemented with either a compiler or an interpreter or both. What you are thinking of as an "interpreter" may very well be a compiler that compiles the code on the fly. 2018-04-07T16:10:58Z jonh joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:11:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:11:23Z shangul: beach, yes 2018-04-07T16:11:35Z beach: shangul: The distinction is important because "interpreter" often implies "slow". So people who think that Common Lisp is interpreted also think it is slow. 2018-04-07T16:11:52Z beach: shangul: This is not the case. Modern Common Lisp implementations compile the expressions as you type them. 2018-04-07T16:12:04Z shangul: I know 2018-04-07T16:12:16Z beach: Good. 2018-04-07T16:12:17Z shangul: (well just this part) 2018-04-07T16:12:41Z pierpa: Then of course CL would be a better language even if the only implementations available were batch compilers 2018-04-07T16:13:09Z beach: shangul: Conversely, people think that "compiler" think that it must process an entire file and create object code as output. Again, this is not true. 2018-04-07T16:13:42Z TMA: shangul: I personally use the edit-compile-run cycle most of the time even with common lisp. On the other hand, I do use the REPL a lot while debugging and during exploratory work. the workflows tend to complement each other well 2018-04-07T16:14:18Z shangul: beach, the entire file or a part of it 2018-04-07T16:14:36Z beach: shangul: What do you mean? 2018-04-07T16:16:09Z shangul: beach, compiler may skip parts of the code. for example with #if of #ifndef preprocessors in C 2018-04-07T16:17:03Z beach: Sure. But the point here is that an interactive (not interpreted) system is able to compile one expression at a time, and no object file is generated. 2018-04-07T16:20:48Z phoe: Shinmera: I see. That could be useful. 2018-04-07T16:21:08Z Shinmera: I think shka_ already published an extension like that for his own preferred syntax. 2018-04-07T16:22:09Z Shinmera: Also note that both documentation-utils and staple have support for letting you add additional "symbol types" that you can then document like anything else. 2018-04-07T16:22:37Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:23:51Z Shinmera: ::look up radiance hook radiance-core:startup 2018-04-07T16:23:51Z Colleen: Hook radiance-core:startup https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#HOOK%20RADIANCE-CORE%3ASTARTUP 2018-04-07T16:23:55Z Shinmera: ^as an example of that 2018-04-07T16:28:08Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:32:20Z slyrus_: Shinmera, is there a summary of why one might want to use radiance over, say, caveman/clack/lack anywhere? 2018-04-07T16:33:22Z Shinmera: I don't know why one would want to use caveman/clack/lack, so I can't tell you. 2018-04-07T16:33:49Z Shinmera: As in, I have no experience with them. 2018-04-07T16:33:54Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:34:42Z Shinmera: What I can tell you is that their goals are different. Radiance is not a traditional web framework in that its goal is to provide you with tools to let multiple applications run on the same site, rather than just giving you tools to build a website. 2018-04-07T16:34:55Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:35:54Z Shinmera: It is also different from a number of frameworks in that it makes no direct requirements about templating, database, etc. 2018-04-07T16:36:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:37:48Z Shinmera: There are strong suggestions on which to pick due to my own preferences, but it is built with the intention of allowing you to choose whatever you want. 2018-04-07T16:38:39Z Shinmera: Or rather, it is built without any knowledge about what you're going to pick, but certain systems already have integration libraries in place because I wrote them, so they're more convenient. If you prefer others you could easily write your own integration though. 2018-04-07T16:41:28Z slyrus_: ok, I'll take a look. I've been reasonably happy with caveman/etc... but it's always nice to have options. 2018-04-07T16:41:51Z Shinmera: I'm always happy to hear people's thoughts. 2018-04-07T16:43:14Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:43:50Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:48:04Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:48:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:49:50Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-07T16:50:49Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:52:34Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-07T16:55:27Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T16:58:02Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T17:00:00Z Xach: hunchentoot is complicated and you can make something useful without going through all its machinations 2018-04-07T17:01:32Z Xach: that is a random thought, sorry. 2018-04-07T17:02:00Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T17:05:10Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:05:39Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:07:56Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:08:31Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:09:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:10:04Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:14:54Z vypr joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:15:44Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T17:16:10Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:22:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:23:14Z flip214: Xach: but it's easy-handlers _are_ easy to use... 2018-04-07T17:23:36Z shangul quit (Quit: sudo rm -rf /usr/*) 2018-04-07T17:24:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:27:52Z thorondor[m]: flip214: you could try with this for Hunchentoot: https://github.com/mmontone/easy-routes 2018-04-07T17:28:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:28:54Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:30:28Z flip214: thorondor[m]: looks interesting, too. and it's already in QL! 2018-04-07T17:30:50Z thorondor[m]: yep :) 2018-04-07T17:31:29Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T17:32:00Z flip214: thorondor[m]: but it's missing a genform that gives a
with hidden fields for POST parameters! ;) 2018-04-07T17:33:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:33:27Z thorondor[m]: I don't know what you mean, but you can declare post parameters like &post , etc 2018-04-07T17:33:39Z thorondor[m]: you have cl-forms for form handling 2018-04-07T17:33:41Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:33:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:34:12Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:34:53Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-07T17:34:57Z vypr quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 2018-04-07T17:35:12Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:36:03Z vypr joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:38:59Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:39:44Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:39:52Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:40:52Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T17:41:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:41:39Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:44:02Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:47:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:48:19Z SenasOzys_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T17:48:39Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:48:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:50:48Z phoe: Where does the standard define valid functional types for FTYPE? 2018-04-07T17:51:31Z phoe: Oh, I think it's http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/CLHS/Body/t_fn.htm 2018-04-07T17:52:21Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:53:13Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-07T17:54:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T17:55:07Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T17:55:30Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T17:58:54Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:01:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:01:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T18:01:59Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:02:58Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:03:29Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:03:30Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-07T18:03:30Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:03:56Z SenasOzys quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T18:04:20Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:05:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T18:05:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:07:22Z SenasOzys quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-07T18:07:40Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:09:08Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T18:09:50Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T18:09:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:10:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T18:10:33Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:12:43Z Bike: you can use any type in an ftype. of course since it's a function, you're lying if it's not some kind of function type 2018-04-07T18:12:58Z Bike: but you could use a deftype type that expands into function, and such 2018-04-07T18:13:34Z phoe: Bike: I'm writing some code that expands into DECLAIM FTYPE, and I need to construct function types. 2018-04-07T18:14:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T18:19:21Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:21:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:27:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:34:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:45:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T18:49:23Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:49:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T18:53:45Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-07T18:53:53Z loli joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:55:30Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2018-04-07T18:58:58Z LdBeth: joh11: [LdBeth: a bit late...] nice to hear that 2018-04-07T19:00:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:04:57Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T19:05:47Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:08:09Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:08:34Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:08:57Z sabrac joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:10:33Z sabrac: Looking for recommendations on code to read with threads and clos finalization with inherited classes. 2018-04-07T19:10:46Z phoe: sabrac: inherited classes? 2018-04-07T19:11:36Z phoe: oh, you mean which thread the finalizers are run in? 2018-04-07T19:13:30Z sabrac: yes 2018-04-07T19:15:57Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:17:31Z phoe: sabrac: what is your implementation? 2018-04-07T19:19:02Z phoe: because SBCL tells us that http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Finalization 2018-04-07T19:19:06Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:19:43Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:22:27Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:24:17Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:24:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:25:31Z sabrac: :phoe I am testing in many different implementations for postmodern, so I cannot rely on just sbcl. 2018-04-07T19:26:33Z sabrac: Someone has run into a race problem when using many threads and I am trying to find best practices to solve 2018-04-07T19:27:16Z phoe: sabrac: what are you finalizing? 2018-04-07T19:28:17Z phoe: (defvar *finalizer-lock* (bt:make-lock)) (finalize obj (lambda () (with-lock-held (*finalizer-lock*) ...))) 2018-04-07T19:28:30Z phoe: would be slow as hell but also safe for sure because no two finalizers would execute at the same time 2018-04-07T19:29:01Z sabrac: instances of dao-class see https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/postmodern/table.lisp 2018-04-07T19:29:14Z sabrac: issue was flagged https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/issues/134 2018-04-07T19:30:17Z phoe: yep, I see 2018-04-07T19:30:18Z jmarciano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T19:32:38Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:35:02Z Shinmera: cl-out123 does some finalization of C data that tries to deal with threads "nicely". I don't know how applicable that is to your case though 2018-04-07T19:43:38Z Bike: so... mop finalization rather than finalizers. 2018-04-07T19:44:01Z Shinmera: Meaning inheritance finalisation? 2018-04-07T19:44:06Z Bike: yeah. 2018-04-07T19:44:09Z Shinmera: oh 2018-04-07T19:44:22Z Bike: on the bright side, much more standardized. 2018-04-07T19:44:41Z Shinmera: Well, redefining classes while threaded is usually bad juju 2018-04-07T19:45:20Z Bike: i think it's more there's a custom metaclass which is doing some weird thing 2018-04-07T19:46:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:47:08Z sabrac: Bike has it right. 2018-04-07T19:48:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-07T19:49:27Z Bike: you can make the (unless (class-finalized-p class) (finalize-inheritance class)) a critical session and i think that would about do it 2018-04-07T19:50:02Z Bike: but i don't fully understand this problem. 2018-04-07T19:51:43Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:52:29Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-07T19:54:40Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T19:55:47Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T19:56:47Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T20:07:40Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:15:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T20:16:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T20:17:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:19:52Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:21:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:24:43Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:25:18Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:29:03Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:34:28Z pagnol quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-07T20:41:16Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T20:41:40Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:43:10Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T20:43:15Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:52:34Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T20:55:55Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:56:15Z fortitude_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:58:27Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-07T20:58:53Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T21:02:00Z sabrac quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-07T21:03:17Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T21:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T21:05:16Z sjl: Shinmera: hey, the example of translation/scaling/rotation on https://shinmera.github.io/3d-matrices/ fails with a type error, because the last step is multipling a mat4 with a vec3 2018-04-07T21:05:44Z Shinmera is embarrassed 2018-04-07T21:05:58Z Shinmera: I'm busy right now, but I'll take a look in about an hour. 2018-04-07T21:06:12Z sjl: also in `(let ((mat (mat4 1))) ...` should that be (meye 4) instead of (mat4 1) or am I missing something? 2018-04-07T21:06:32Z sjl: shouldn't you start with the identity matrix to build up the transforms 2018-04-07T21:06:34Z sjl: ? 2018-04-07T21:07:13Z Shinmera: You are right, yes. 2018-04-07T21:09:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T21:11:37Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T21:15:47Z sjl: Shinmera: Also, would you be interested in a patch that added `1` to swizzling? So you could e.g. `(vxy1 some-vec-2)` to convert a bare 2d vector to a 2d homogenous-coords-style. Or is there a cleaner way to do that? 2018-04-07T21:16:19Z sjl: (vec3 (vx somevec) (vy somevec) 1) is a lot of typing 2018-04-07T21:16:46Z Shinmera: Adding even more swizzling is making me a bit uncomfortable. It's pretty extreme already as is. 2018-04-07T21:17:13Z Shinmera: Let me think 2018-04-07T21:17:39Z sjl: no rush, I've gotta head out for the day pretty soon anyway 2018-04-07T21:18:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-07T21:21:08Z Shinmera: I guess I could change n/vorder to accept numbers as arguments as well so you could do (vorder vec :x :y 1) 2018-04-07T21:21:21Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-07T21:22:12Z Shinmera: No, actually, that doens't work 2018-04-07T21:22:23Z Shinmera: and would be pretty bad in terms of violating expectations 2018-04-07T21:38:10Z Nouv joined #lisp 2018-04-07T21:38:28Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-07T21:42:51Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T21:51:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-07T21:51:44Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T21:53:04Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T21:53:29Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T21:55:06Z makomo: is there an error in the first example of HANDLER-CASE? http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_hand_1.htm 2018-04-07T21:55:18Z makomo: the (setq #1# temp) in the first lambda? 2018-04-07T21:55:33Z makomo: shouldn't it be #2#? 2018-04-07T21:55:38Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-07T21:58:39Z Bike: probably. 2018-04-07T21:58:39Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-07T22:01:55Z makomo: not a big deal i guess, but is there a procedure for dealing with errors like these? 2018-04-07T22:02:18Z makomo: i presume other errors have been found over the years too, are they collected somewhere? 2018-04-07T22:05:25Z Bike: https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata 2018-04-07T22:05:47Z Shinmera: makomo: Examples are not normative 2018-04-07T22:06:04Z makomo: Shinmera: of course, but still an error/type 2018-04-07T22:06:08Z makomo: typo* 2018-04-07T22:06:16Z Shinmera: Sure, but it's not a big deal. 2018-04-07T22:06:34Z makomo: yeah, true 2018-04-07T22:07:01Z makomo: Bike: nice, thanks 2018-04-07T22:10:04Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:10:18Z ldb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T22:10:39Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:10:59Z ldb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T22:11:31Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:12:15Z ldb: sup. now my irc client supports switch channel 2018-04-07T22:15:04Z paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:19:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T22:26:53Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T22:32:08Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-07T22:35:21Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:44:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:47:59Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:50:29Z asarch: Is the Half-Life 2 logo a lambda symbol? 2018-04-07T22:50:37Z asarch: It is, isn't it? 2018-04-07T22:51:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T22:52:37Z asarch: I got the "An Introduction to Functional Programming Through Lambda Calculus" book from Greg Michaelson 2018-04-07T22:52:37Z Shinmera: The half-life of atomic decay is denoted by lambda in physics. 2018-04-07T22:52:59Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:53:07Z asarch: Thank you Shinmera 2018-04-07T22:53:32Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-07T22:53:46Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:55:27Z asarch: "λ is a positive number called the decay constant of the decaying quantity." 2018-04-07T22:55:34Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2018-04-07T22:59:05Z Nouv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T22:59:28Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-07T22:59:49Z asarch: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d986/546bc3780db3a3c0f8d88b35e421ae4eec21.pdf 2018-04-07T23:00:37Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:03:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:03:29Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:03:53Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:11:47Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-07T23:13:32Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:16:44Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-07T23:19:13Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:26:10Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-07T23:26:57Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:30:31Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T23:30:54Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:31:33Z esthlos: what are my options when I want to mapcar a macro, or why is it bad to want to do this in the first place? 2018-04-07T23:33:58Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:36:23Z Bike: what macro is it 2018-04-07T23:37:11Z pfdietz: The decay constant and the half life are different (but related) things. t_1/2 = (ln 2) / lambda. 2018-04-07T23:38:10Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:39:04Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:40:12Z LdBeth: esthlos: you could consider inline function or compiler macros 2018-04-07T23:40:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:41:14Z LdBeth: And what macro is it? 2018-04-07T23:44:06Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:44:14Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-07T23:46:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:46:36Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:50:43Z esthlos: I need a bunch of classes which are basically identical (but will have different behaviors in different methods) 2018-04-07T23:50:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:51:24Z Bike: mop ensure-class 2018-04-07T23:51:24Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html 2018-04-07T23:51:37Z Bike: i wouldn't design things that way if i were you, though 2018-04-07T23:51:37Z esthlos: my idea was to have a macro (defmacro foo (type-symbol) `(defclass ,type-symbol (something) ())) 2018-04-07T23:51:51Z esthlos: yeah, it's a bad design, not sure what to do 2018-04-07T23:51:57Z esthlos: thanks 2018-04-07T23:52:03Z Bike: do you know all the names at compile time? 2018-04-07T23:52:09Z esthlos: yes 2018-04-07T23:52:19Z Bike: then just write a macro 2018-04-07T23:52:37Z Bike: (defmacro defclasses (&rest names) `(progn ,@(loop for name in names collecting `(defclass ,name ...)))) 2018-04-07T23:52:38Z esthlos: I just want to create a bunch of classes without a list of defclasses 2018-04-07T23:53:33Z esthlos: will those classes be bound in the global environment? 2018-04-07T23:53:37Z Bike: yeah 2018-04-07T23:53:55Z esthlos: cool, i'll do that until I have a better architecture 2018-04-07T23:53:56Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:54:08Z esthlos: thanks again 2018-04-07T23:54:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:55:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-07T23:55:39Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2018-04-07T23:55:39Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:58:06Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-07T23:59:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:04:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:07:20Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T00:09:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:12:27Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:12:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:14:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:18:45Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T00:18:53Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-08T00:20:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:21:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:25:14Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T00:27:36Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-08T00:28:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:30:17Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T00:36:28Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:37:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-08T00:43:56Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T00:51:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:54:23Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T00:58:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:08:56Z pyericz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:11:19Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:17:53Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:21:25Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:24:58Z pyericz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:26:02Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:27:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:32:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:33:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:36:06Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:37:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:39:22Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:39:33Z iqubic: What would a good starter project for Lisp? 2018-04-08T01:40:46Z surrounder: what's what you wanna build? 2018-04-08T01:41:28Z iqubic: I'm not sure what I want to build. 2018-04-08T01:43:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:44:26Z Bike: you're not going to be too motivated that way 2018-04-08T01:45:55Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T01:49:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T01:53:54Z iqubic: I know. I wish I knew what to build. 2018-04-08T01:58:05Z semz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:58:05Z semz quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T01:58:05Z semz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T01:58:47Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T01:59:45Z fisxoj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T02:00:32Z Arcaelyx_ is now known as Arcaelyx 2018-04-08T02:00:44Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2018-04-08T02:10:33Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T02:12:34Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:16:14Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:16:38Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:17:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T02:19:47Z SenasOzys left #lisp 2018-04-08T02:20:11Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:23:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:23:32Z dorothyw: how can bourne shell do everything sbcl can do 2018-04-08T02:23:57Z Cthulhux: why would you do that? 2018-04-08T02:24:12Z dorothyw: I see no logical reason to use lisp over bourne shell. 2018-04-08T02:25:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:25:18Z Cthulhux: use #!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script 2018-04-08T02:25:21Z Cthulhux: problem solved. 2018-04-08T02:27:04Z dorothyw: tsk tsk tsk 2018-04-08T02:27:59Z pierpa: then use the bourne shell and be happy. In the #bourneshell channel, possibly 2018-04-08T02:28:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:28:55Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:29:09Z dorothyw: But I do not think bourne shell can do everything lisp can do 2018-04-08T02:29:23Z dorothyw: I have been told that many times but I don't know how I can believe it 2018-04-08T02:29:32Z Cthulhux: it can, you just need more code to achieve the same thing. 2018-04-08T02:29:49Z Cthulhux: (in a damn ugly syntax) 2018-04-08T02:29:55Z dorothyw: In your version you called on a file called sbcl but I can't write sbcl in bourne shell and have it be fast 2018-04-08T02:30:16Z dorothyw: the only way to make sbcl fast is to write it in common lisp 2018-04-08T02:30:39Z dorothyw: bourne shell can not do everything lisp can do because bourne shell can not compute quickly 2018-04-08T02:31:53Z LdBeth: There might be a sh to C compiler 2018-04-08T02:32:23Z dorothyw: It is true that I could write a compiler in sh I suppose. 2018-04-08T02:32:55Z dorothyw: The issue is that I can not use gcc 2018-04-08T02:33:13Z dorothyw: I would have to write an sh to x86 compiler in sh 2018-04-08T02:33:48Z LdBeth: What’s problem to GCC? License? 2018-04-08T02:34:32Z dorothyw: Gcc won't fit on a chip. And gcc is not part of posix or ansi compliance for unix clones 2018-04-08T02:35:26Z dorothyw: that's not important though 2018-04-08T02:35:30Z dorothyw: it could be any language not just sh 2018-04-08T02:37:10Z LdBeth spent an afternoon to write 23 line of macros expand to an bit array emitter 2018-04-08T02:37:12Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:37:54Z LdBeth: Very soon we’ll have an assembler in CL 2018-04-08T02:38:41Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T02:39:28Z LdBeth: With full power of macro expansion 2018-04-08T02:41:02Z dorothyw: I thought cl already had an assembler built into the spec 2018-04-08T02:42:15Z earl-ducaine: Trying to reconsile clhs gensym: If and only if no explicit suffix is supplied, *gensym-counter* is incremented after it is used. 2018-04-08T02:42:26Z earl-ducaine: with https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/ec91f10226cee9004cafad4a123afe8b 2018-04-08T02:43:06Z earl-ducaine: i.e. it seems that when a prefix *is* supplied the counter *is* incremented. 2018-04-08T02:43:55Z pierpa: why this bother you? 2018-04-08T02:44:11Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T02:45:38Z earl-ducaine: The way that it's working in SBCL is what I would expect. But my experience is that whenever I think there's an error in the clhs it's because there's something that I'm missing. 2018-04-08T02:46:12Z earl-ducaine: I'm assuming that's the case here, that somehow I'm misinterpretting this passage. 2018-04-08T02:46:53Z LdBeth: dorothyw: nope. those assembler are only for internal use 2018-04-08T02:51:28Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-08T02:56:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T02:57:28Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T02:58:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:01:24Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T03:01:57Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:03:37Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:06:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T03:12:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:12:58Z aeth: CL is getting better and better for low level programming 2018-04-08T03:13:51Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:15:39Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T03:17:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T03:17:17Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:17:22Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:18:59Z equwal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T03:24:15Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:24:16Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T03:24:16Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:24:19Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T03:24:21Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:25:47Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T03:31:09Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:31:38Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T03:32:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:39:27Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T03:42:23Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T03:46:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-08T03:49:44Z __main__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T03:52:17Z iqubic: Morning Beach. 2018-04-08T04:05:21Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:06:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:07:17Z ldb: morning 2018-04-08T04:07:44Z ldb: /me and good night 2018-04-08T04:08:02Z ldb quit (Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc) 2018-04-08T04:10:21Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:10:22Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T04:10:22Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:10:49Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T04:12:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:13:34Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:16:43Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:17:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:19:05Z elderK: Hey all 2018-04-08T04:20:58Z beach: Hello elderK. 2018-04-08T04:23:34Z elderK: Hey beach! 2018-04-08T04:23:50Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:23:51Z elderK: I was wondering if there's a way to set a slot indirectly. 2018-04-08T04:24:05Z elderK: Like, (defun s (accessor instance value) ....) 2018-04-08T04:24:17Z elderK: (setf (funcall accessor instance) value) doesn't seem to work :P 2018-04-08T04:24:27Z elderK: (funcall accessor instance) does, however. 2018-04-08T04:24:34Z Bike: setf slot value 2018-04-08T04:24:41Z beach: What do you mean by "indirectly"? 2018-04-08T04:24:45Z Bike: or (funcall #'(setf accessor) ...), probably 2018-04-08T04:25:11Z elderK: Well, instead of actually writing (setf (class-slot instance) value) 2018-04-08T04:25:22Z elderK: I'd pass into a function the accessor for some slot, the instnace and the value. 2018-04-08T04:25:28Z elderK: And the function would do the actual setting. 2018-04-08T04:25:29Z Bike: (funcall #'(setf accessor) value instance) that is 2018-04-08T04:27:12Z beach: elderK: There is not a single function that plays the role of an accessor. There is a reader function and a writer function. 2018-04-08T04:27:35Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-08T04:27:49Z elderK: Ah, okay. So class-slot would be the reader. Would the setf specialization be the writer? 2018-04-08T04:27:55Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:28:39Z beach: elderK: If you wrote :ACCESSOR BLA, then the reader is called BLA and the writer is called (SETF BLA). 2018-04-08T04:29:46Z elderK: beach: See, I'm trying to figure out if a trick I apply in the C world works here and if it does, if it looks decent. 2018-04-08T04:29:59Z elderK: May I tell you guys what I'm doing, maybe you can suggest better alternatives :) 2018-04-08T04:30:11Z Bike: sure, but it sounds ominous so far 2018-04-08T04:30:15Z elderK: heh. 2018-04-08T04:30:57Z elderK: I'm just writing a simple binary search tree. In the C world, I can avoid having to write symmetric code. You know, go down this direction if value < node, go down this direction if value > node, etc. 2018-04-08T04:31:02Z bkst_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:32:16Z elderK: The C way I do is basically: You have a pointer-to-a-pointer-to-a-node. You set that pointer to the address of the pointer pointing to whatever node. 2018-04-08T04:32:26Z elderK: As you go down the tree, you update that pointer to point at whatever node link you are on. 2018-04-08T04:32:44Z elderK: If the node link is zero, you know you're on a child and can directly patch the link to the new node. 2018-04-08T04:32:52Z Bike: wait, you're just searching a binary tree? not editing it? 2018-04-08T04:33:05Z elderK: No - editing. Destructively modifying. 2018-04-08T04:34:56Z elderK: Search is no big deal. Ideally, you can factor out the searching code so that you can reuse it when implementing insertion or deletion. 2018-04-08T04:36:06Z elderK: I.e. %search would return something that denotes a link to a node. If what the link references is nil, you know the value you are searching for isn't in the tree and can patch the link to reference the new node. 2018-04-08T04:36:17Z elderK: If the link references something, you know the value is in the tree. 2018-04-08T04:37:17Z elderK: :P My first "attempt" at implementing BST in CL had a lot of duplication, you see. And I'm trying to figure out how to cut it down in a nice way :) 2018-04-08T04:37:46Z beach: elderK: As I recall, PAIP has some hints for how to deal with stuff like that. 2018-04-08T04:41:45Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:43:23Z elderK: Thanks beach. 2018-04-08T04:43:50Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T04:45:00Z LdBeth: elderK: CLWEB has a impl of BST, following the one from CWEB 2018-04-08T04:45:51Z LdBeth: elderK: so you might be able to make a compare between them 2018-04-08T04:47:13Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-08T04:47:58Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-08T04:48:15Z elderK: I really should just sit down and read PAIP. 2018-04-08T04:53:41Z bkst joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:54:01Z elderK: LdBeth: Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking do could be used to do it iteratively. 2018-04-08T04:55:37Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-08T04:55:39Z elderK: Here's a link to the code, in case someone in the future is curious: ramming system for Common ... 2018-04-08T04:55:41Z elderK: https://github.com/plotnick/clweb 2018-04-08T04:55:57Z elderK: Okay. Paste didn't work as expected :P 2018-04-08T04:56:07Z elderK: https://github.com/plotnick/clweb/blob/master/clweb.lisp#L283 2018-04-08T04:57:56Z elderK: LdBeth: The only issue is that they're repeating the LESSP check when attaching a new node. 2018-04-08T04:58:47Z Jen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:00:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:10:52Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T05:11:09Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:11:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:12:22Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T05:15:51Z LdBeth: elderK: I guess it avoids rebalancing the tree, since there are no needs for deletion nodes in this program. 2018-04-08T05:15:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:17:54Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:19:03Z elderK: LdBeth: Eh? It's a simple BST, no rebalancing is done? 2018-04-08T05:20:07Z elderK grabs a coffee, starts reading through PAIP. 2018-04-08T05:21:52Z LdBeth: elderK: okay, but I don’t see why LESSP is an issue 2018-04-08T05:24:37Z elderK: LdBeth: Well, in the general case, it's probably not an issue. It's just, the code already knows which side to attach a new node. It knew that when it breaks the loop, just that knowledge isn't captured. This is why, when the code attaches a new node, it has to repeat the comparison that it knows which child link to update. 2018-04-08T05:25:29Z elderK: If the keys are expensive to compare - you want to avoid that. Comparing integers or say, symbols, is probably cheap. But comparing strings is probably more expensive. So, you'd want to avoid doing that if at all possible. 2018-04-08T05:27:27Z elderK: In the greater scheme of things though, it doesn't matter. Insertion would already be considered expensive in that case. So, taking a tiny bit longer isn't going to mean anything :P 2018-04-08T05:27:33Z LdBeth: elderK: I see, what you mean is something like continuations 2018-04-08T05:27:45Z elderK: LdBeth: No. You don't need continuations for this. 2018-04-08T05:28:08Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:29:30Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T05:30:34Z LdBeth: But continuations definitely could help 2018-04-08T05:32:49Z elderK: I don't see how. Unless you want to say, call some continuation to recover some state. 2018-04-08T05:32:56Z elderK: But that would be overkill for this, I think. 2018-04-08T05:33:07Z elderK: All you need to do, is remember how to update a node link. That's it. 2018-04-08T05:33:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:33:26Z elderK: If you're on the tree root, then you need to call say, (setf tree-root) to update the root link. 2018-04-08T05:33:35Z elderK: Otherwise, (setf node-left) or (setf node-right). 2018-04-08T05:33:45Z elderK: As long as you remembered which "setter" to call, you could avoid repeating the lessp. 2018-04-08T05:39:30Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:39:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:40:02Z LdBeth: By keeping a updated reference to the last search result? 2018-04-08T05:40:44Z elderK: :) I don't think I'm explaining myself all that well. 2018-04-08T05:40:57Z elderK: I'll show you when I write what I mean :) 2018-04-08T05:41:11Z elderK: For now, PAIP! :) 2018-04-08T05:41:17Z LdBeth: Ok 2018-04-08T05:41:26Z LdBeth: Have fun 2018-04-08T05:41:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:42:20Z elderK: :) Thank oyu 2018-04-08T05:42:57Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:45:29Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:45:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:47:07Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:50:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T05:52:11Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:55:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T05:55:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:00:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:00:19Z drmeister: Are there any maxima users online? Is there an equivalent to Head[x] in mathematica? 2018-04-08T06:08:18Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:12:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:15:19Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:17:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:19:21Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-08T06:19:58Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T06:20:25Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:22:07Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-08T06:27:29Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T06:27:32Z LdBeth: drmeister: first() ? 2018-04-08T06:28:16Z phoe: I'm no Maxima user but http://maxima.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/maxima_5.html#SEC21 is what I found 2018-04-08T06:28:44Z phoe: and first(expr) seems to be a generic function for fetching the first element of a list/row of matrix/term of sum 2018-04-08T06:30:27Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:32:10Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:32:13Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T06:32:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:36:40Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:37:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:52:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:52:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:55:11Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T06:56:19Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T06:56:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:57:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T06:57:48Z 7GHAAIVKN quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T06:58:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-08T06:58:07Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T06:58:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:03:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:03:58Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T07:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:06:58Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:07:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:13:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:15:01Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T07:15:07Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:17:23Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:18:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:18:47Z kqr: elderK, ah, thanks for the mention of testing frameworks. I also just discovered fiasco which I think looks cooltoo. i'll have to just pick one and play with it a bit :) 2018-04-08T07:19:30Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T07:19:50Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:23:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:24:45Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:26:57Z JenElizabeth quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T07:27:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:27:28Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T07:27:28Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:27:28Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:27:59Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:28:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:33:38Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:33:46Z elderK: Wow. I wish I started reading PAIP years ago when I first heard of it. 2018-04-08T07:34:02Z elderK: Curse you, procrastination! 2018-04-08T07:37:46Z f32ff joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:43:00Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T07:43:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:44:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:48:40Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:51:35Z catern quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T07:54:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T07:56:34Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:00:23Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:02:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:02:35Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:06:23Z catern joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:08:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:09:11Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:09:11Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T08:09:18Z elderK: kqr: I've just decided I'm going to stick with parachute. It's an arbitrary choice - but it seems good. 2018-04-08T08:09:31Z elderK: kqr: I'll consider prove as a fallback. But, I don't anticipate needing it :) 2018-04-08T08:10:12Z elderK: It will be awhile before I continue with my usual programs. I will work through PAIP. 2018-04-08T08:10:32Z elderK: So far I've skipped doing several exercizes. That's bad. I will have to go back and do them. 2018-04-08T08:10:51Z kqr: exercises are great. i wish I ever had time to do them :( 2018-04-08T08:12:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:17:31Z jello_pudding quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T08:17:33Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-08T08:19:13Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:19:37Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T08:20:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:20:44Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:21:37Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T08:21:41Z elderK: kqr: Me too. But I'm going to force myself :P 2018-04-08T08:21:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:22:01Z elderK: kqr: The first PAIP exercize is interesting - about handling last-names properly in the case of something like John Doe, MD 2018-04-08T08:22:18Z elderK: I guess I could simplify it to handle things like John Joe MD or John Joe Jr 2018-04-08T08:22:28Z elderK: Stripping the , would be an annoying step. 2018-04-08T08:22:30Z elderK: But probably easy too. 2018-04-08T08:22:59Z elderK: *exercise 2018-04-08T08:26:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:27:07Z ecraven: how would I read a 16 or 32 bit signed integer from an input stream in common lisp? is there any part of the hyperspec dealing with "binary i/o"? 2018-04-08T08:28:06Z phoe: ecraven: fast-io 2018-04-08T08:28:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:28:32Z phoe: it has a thing called a buffer that builds on top of streams, and then has functions readu32-be and readu32-le that operate on buffers 2018-04-08T08:29:07Z elderK: ecraven: Phoe's answer is good. But, if you want to do things manually, look up read-byte and read-sequence. They are covered in Practical Common Lisp. 2018-04-08T08:29:20Z elderK: If you do it manually, be aware that you will need to read from a binary stream. 2018-04-08T08:29:24Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:30:03Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:31:00Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T08:31:56Z ecraven: thanks! 2018-04-08T08:32:15Z elderK: np :) 2018-04-08T08:32:43Z ecraven: is read128-* actually relevant? 2018-04-08T08:32:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:34:00Z ecraven: I mean, do other languages use 128 bit integers? 2018-04-08T08:34:55Z phoe: ecraven: I have no idea, but this one reads it and gives it to you 2018-04-08T08:35:17Z phoe: It most likely is a bignum, but the issue here is not about if your processor has a big enough word size to handle it 2018-04-08T08:35:20Z elderK: ecraven: I imagine it could potentially be useful. 2018-04-08T08:35:33Z phoe: But rather if your data actually contains 128-bit integers, which is possible. 2018-04-08T08:35:44Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-08T08:35:50Z phoe: Of course handling them will be expensive, but it *might* be useful for someone. 2018-04-08T08:36:09Z ecraven: does fast-io support reading ieee floats? I can't find anything that would suggest it does 2018-04-08T08:36:32Z Shinmera: fast-io deals with bits, but you can use the ieee-floats library to convert bits to floats and back. 2018-04-08T08:36:36Z phoe: https://github.com/marijnh/ieee-floats/blob/master/ieee-floats.lisp 2018-04-08T08:36:37Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:36:45Z ecraven: great, thank you for all the help! 2018-04-08T08:38:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:41:42Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:42:14Z phoe: <3 2018-04-08T08:42:23Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:43:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T08:44:52Z elderK makes a note to investigate fast-io's internals someday. 2018-04-08T08:45:11Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:49:45Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T08:50:12Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:50:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:50:51Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:51:04Z beach: In case someone feels like checking out my slides for the incremental-parsing talk, here is a preliminary version: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing-talk.pdf It should be viewed in "presentation" mode so that the "animations" can be fully appreciated. 2018-04-08T08:51:05Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:51:29Z figurehe4d joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:51:29Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T08:51:32Z beach: I have more time than usual (around 30 minutes) in case someone thinks it might be too long. 2018-04-08T08:52:10Z phoe: beach: page 7, where is it incorrect? the declare form is indented the same way as everything else? 2018-04-08T08:52:43Z beach: phoe: It is really another binding. 2018-04-08T08:52:48Z beach: Count the parentheses. 2018-04-08T08:53:03Z phoe: GAH 2018-04-08T08:53:06Z phoe: You tricked me! 2018-04-08T08:53:11Z beach: On purpose. 2018-04-08T08:54:02Z phoe: Note: some people, including me, use emacs's aggressive-indent plugin. It mitigates what you describe there by automatically hoisting the binding to its proper indentation and making it impossible to indent it any other way. 2018-04-08T08:54:16Z phoe: Which, in 90% cases, is correct, and some other cases, is pretty annoying. 2018-04-08T08:54:28Z beach: Yeah, I can imagine both those. :) 2018-04-08T08:54:30Z phoe: You might want to include that in your paper or in your talk. 2018-04-08T08:54:45Z beach: I'll think about that. Thanks for mentioning it. 2018-04-08T08:55:33Z phoe: No problem. The fact I use aggressive-indent is exactly why I fell for your trap. 2018-04-08T08:55:43Z beach: I understand. 2018-04-08T08:55:44Z makomo: beach: what is that diagram on page 12? the cache? 2018-04-08T08:56:08Z beach: Yes. 2018-04-08T08:56:14Z phoe: Yep, the diagram doesn't look all that clear. 2018-04-08T08:56:24Z beach: I'll explain that when I show the slide. 2018-04-08T08:56:35Z makomo: ah 2018-04-08T08:56:41Z beach: The text is not self contained. 2018-04-08T08:57:07Z phoe: beach: as much as I understand your work, the rectangles map to some bits and pieces of text in the buffer. 2018-04-08T08:57:11Z makomo: mhm. and now i also see that there are more diagrams after that 2018-04-08T08:57:43Z beach: Yes, those rectangles are nested parse results. The top-most ones correspond to top-level expressions and other material in the buffer. 2018-04-08T08:57:43Z makomo: which makes it a bit clearer about what's going on 2018-04-08T08:57:48Z phoe: I'd create such an example buffer with some bits of Lisp code, and draw arrows from the diagram to the text, so people can map these two better in their imaginations. 2018-04-08T08:58:05Z phoe: Possibly even mark the different parse results with colors, and mark their matching rectangles respectively. 2018-04-08T08:58:08Z beach: Tempting, but might be too complicated. 2018-04-08T08:58:33Z phoe: I wouldn't say so. Let me do a quick example in my graphics editor. 2018-04-08T08:58:42Z elderK: Hey, cool. I didn't know symbols had properties :D 2018-04-08T08:58:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T08:59:09Z beach: clhs symbol-plist 2018-04-08T08:59:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_4.htm 2018-04-08T08:59:24Z elderK: It would be interesting to benchmark the performance of hash vs alist vs plist. 2018-04-08T08:59:24Z beach: elderK: Don't use that feature. 2018-04-08T08:59:30Z elderK: I won't. 2018-04-08T08:59:51Z elderK: But I'd still be interested in determining the threshold for where a list is good enough. 2018-04-08T08:59:53Z elderK: or a a-list. 2018-04-08T09:00:05Z elderK: I guess it would really depend on the key's type, too. 2018-04-08T09:00:06Z elderK: :) 2018-04-08T09:00:27Z elderK: beach: Thank you for prompting me to read PAIP. I wish I did it years ago. 2018-04-08T09:00:33Z elderK: I am going to learn a ton from this book :) 2018-04-08T09:00:43Z aeth: elderK: The threshold is implementation-dependent, but probably lower than you think. 2018-04-08T09:00:47Z beach: elderK: It is quite good actually. Glad I could be of help. 2018-04-08T09:00:50Z elderK: I like how he gives stylistic advice, too. 2018-04-08T09:01:18Z elderK: aeth: My current view is "If you are ever going to be looking up a lot of things, use a proper ADT." 2018-04-08T09:01:36Z beach: Sound advice. 2018-04-08T09:01:59Z elderK: :P Make use of LUTs where possible. 2018-04-08T09:02:17Z elderK: These days, I pretty much ignore linear lookup of stuff. 2018-04-08T09:02:44Z aeth: elderK: My current style is to basically just use plists when they're intended to be used with alexandria:doplist 2018-04-08T09:02:53Z beach: elderK: Once you have a good protocol for it, you can optimize later (without changing the protocol) should it turn out to be necessary. 2018-04-08T09:03:41Z elderK: True. 2018-04-08T09:03:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:04:20Z beach: elderK: So I often start by designing the protocol, possibly having some sophisticated data structure in mind. Then I implement a simple version of it. 2018-04-08T09:04:29Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:04:45Z beach: If I decide to implement the sophisticated data structure later, I use the simple version as comparison for random testing. 2018-04-08T09:04:59Z elderK: What is random testing? 2018-04-08T09:05:28Z beach: I emit the same random sequence of operations to both implementation and I compare that the results are the same. 2018-04-08T09:05:55Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-08T09:06:22Z beach: I can emit millions of such operations automatically, which makes it unnecessary for me to manually enumerate a potentially very large number of cases. 2018-04-08T09:06:26Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:06:50Z elderK: Sounds useful. 2018-04-08T09:06:54Z elderK: No need to manually write zillions of unit tests. 2018-04-08T09:07:17Z elderK: Is there a library that allows this? 2018-04-08T09:07:22Z elderK: I would be interested. 2018-04-08T09:07:31Z elderK: Same with a fuzzer that works from a generative grammar. 2018-04-08T09:07:51Z elderK: Although PAIP has already taught me how to make a fuzzer if necessary :D 2018-04-08T09:08:06Z elderK: (I'm very thankful that the contents of the book - along with other stuff I'm doing at Uni - align.) 2018-04-08T09:08:39Z elderK: beach: I'd definitely be interesting in learning more about random testing. It would be very useful outside of Lisp, too. 2018-04-08T09:09:00Z beach: elderK: I have not found a library that supports this kind of testing, and I don't know what the features of such a library would be. 2018-04-08T09:09:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:09:30Z phoe: beach: quick and ugly graphical hack, https://i.imgur.com/lFxpjIH.png 2018-04-08T09:09:30Z beach: elderK: You may want to study my Cluffer library then. 2018-04-08T09:09:57Z phoe: That's how I imagine your cache works. I might be wrong, but the style of graphical representation is what I am thinking of. 2018-04-08T09:10:02Z beach: elderK: It contains two implementations of a protocol for editor buffers. 2018-04-08T09:10:31Z makomo: phoe: now do it in TikZ :D 2018-04-08T09:10:38Z phoe: That code does not even have to be correct since it's the forms that actually matter. 2018-04-08T09:10:41Z phoe: makomo: what is TikZ 2018-04-08T09:10:48Z elderK: beach: I'll note that for later study. :) 2018-04-08T09:10:52Z phoe: oh geez 2018-04-08T09:10:52Z makomo: a LaTeX package which i assume beach used to make those diagrams 2018-04-08T09:11:04Z makomo: but maybe not 2018-04-08T09:11:10Z beach: phoe: Correct. And since you could imagine it, so can very likely the audience when I explain it. But I'll submit your proposal to my favorite coauthor and we will see what she says. 2018-04-08T09:11:22Z phoe: Okay! No problem. 2018-04-08T09:11:53Z phoe: I just react very well to colors, but that's just one of my personal oddities. And a reason why I use rainbow-parens to write Lisp. 2018-04-08T09:12:55Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/SsMNM83.png 2018-04-08T09:13:31Z LdBeth: I would rather like to write a long line of code and let Lisp pretty print that. 2018-04-08T09:13:35Z jackdaniel just had this disturbing image in his head where innocent rainbow parens were forced to write Lisp code 2018-04-08T09:13:42Z kqr: elderK, is the problem that ill specified? heh (as in "handle last names in the case of appended titles")? 2018-04-08T09:13:52Z phoe: jackdaniel: TIL that my emacs is a forced work camp 2018-04-08T09:14:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:14:42Z makomo: phoe: hmm, your colors look much clearer/more distinct from one another than mine 2018-04-08T09:14:44Z pyx joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:14:53Z makomo: not sure if it's because of the theme i have or some rainbow-parens setting 2018-04-08T09:14:56Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T09:14:59Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T09:15:08Z elderK: kqr: Pretty much :P He bases it on an earlier example. 2018-04-08T09:15:11Z phoe: makomo: I have custom settings for rainbow-parens and I use them on top of zenburn theme. 2018-04-08T09:15:14Z makomo: phoe: https://i.imgur.com/iMK0ScW.png 2018-04-08T09:15:35Z elderK: kqr: Out of context, it sounds bad. But, if you see the first chapter or so, it will make more sense. 2018-04-08T09:15:49Z makomo: phoe: so you customized the colors or? 2018-04-08T09:15:51Z phoe: makomo: https://pastebin.com/xJ5ZVmZG yep 2018-04-08T09:16:07Z makomo: phoe: thanks, i'll try it otu 2018-04-08T09:16:09Z makomo: out* 2018-04-08T09:16:31Z elderK: I wonder if member, set-difference, etc, are generic functions. 2018-04-08T09:16:54Z LdBeth: https://emacs-china.org/uploads/default/original/2X/8/8a2b83fcf160304dd278607fafd677f2fa3f86bb.png 2018-04-08T09:17:10Z elderK: clhs set-difference 2018-04-08T09:17:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm 2018-04-08T09:17:27Z elderK: clhs intersection 2018-04-08T09:17:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_isec_.htm 2018-04-08T09:17:50Z elderK: Hmm. Not working. 2018-04-08T09:17:53Z elderK: I must be doing something wrong. 2018-04-08T09:18:00Z elderK: clhs help 2018-04-08T09:18:00Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for help. 2018-04-08T09:18:22Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:18:41Z TMA: somehow the low contrast betwen the text (phoe's symbols, makomo's parens) and background irks me much more than the colors 2018-04-08T09:18:54Z phoe: elderK: they are not generic 2018-04-08T09:19:11Z LdBeth: elderK: no. MEMBER only works for list 2018-04-08T09:19:15Z makomo: TMA: yeah, same, that's why i would like to fix that now 2018-04-08T09:19:24Z phoe: TMA: I like low-contrast themes. For more contrasting colors, there are other themes. 2018-04-08T09:20:07Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:21:17Z LdBeth: What I think significantly contributes to readability is proper indentation and nice font. 2018-04-08T09:22:29Z kqr: elderK, ah okay, yeah, it's basically a "define your own problem" type exercise :) that makes more sense 2018-04-08T09:22:43Z kqr: elderK, (but is incidentally also the reason I never have time to do exercises – I keep extending the scope...) 2018-04-08T09:23:00Z lagagain joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:25:41Z beach: phoe: Any other remarks about the slides? 2018-04-08T09:26:00Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:26:23Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T09:26:34Z phoe: beach: nope, they are clear and readable to me. 2018-04-08T09:27:27Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:29:18Z beach: Excellent! That means a lot to me. 2018-04-08T09:29:26Z beach: Thanks again. 2018-04-08T09:29:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:30:03Z phoe: No problem! Always happy to (proof)read your work. 2018-04-08T09:31:21Z Shinmera is going to write his slides on stream tonight. https://events.tymoon.eu/1 2018-04-08T09:34:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:35:38Z beach: That should be fun. 2018-04-08T09:38:54Z phoe: Ha! I just came up with a use case for GENTEMP that GENSYM can't help me with. 2018-04-08T09:39:05Z phoe: (Lisp coding just gets more and more fun every day.) 2018-04-08T09:40:58Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:42:27Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:42:32Z Lord_Nig- joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:42:38Z Shinmera: beach: I hope so! 2018-04-08T09:43:01Z elderK: kqr: Same here. That's why I made it simpler :P 2018-04-08T09:43:13Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T09:43:14Z elderK: kqr: Not be concerned with the , in the string. :P 2018-04-08T09:45:11Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T09:45:34Z kqr: elderK, good job! 2018-04-08T09:45:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:46:33Z Lord_Nightmare2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:47:02Z phoe: ha! today I learned that Lisp allows comma-separated lists! 2018-04-08T09:47:07Z phoe: (let ((fruit `(:apple, :orange, :cucumber, :pear, :watermelon))) (print fruit)) 2018-04-08T09:47:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:47:19Z kqr: commas are ignored, right? 2018-04-08T09:47:36Z Shinmera: phoe: please no 2018-04-08T09:47:37Z phoe: kqr: nope. they are a part of the backquote syntax. 2018-04-08T09:47:45Z Lord_Nig- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:48:03Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/02_df.htm 2018-04-08T09:48:11Z Shinmera: that is a recipe for disaster 2018-04-08T09:48:27Z phoe: And my example up there is a case so pathological that Shinmera's reaction up there is quite justified. 2018-04-08T09:48:40Z Shinmera: It made me physically cringe 2018-04-08T09:49:17Z phoe: first of all, the spacing is wrong, since it should look like 2018-04-08T09:49:33Z phoe: (let ((fruit `(:apple ,:orange ,:cucumber ,:pear ,:watermelon))) (print fruit)) 2018-04-08T09:49:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:49:55Z phoe: the comma does not belong to the term before it but rather to the term after it. 2018-04-08T09:50:20Z phoe: (let ((y 2)) `(x ,y)) ;=> (X 2) 2018-04-08T09:50:39Z phoe: (let ((y '(4 5 6))) `(1 2 3 ,@y)) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6) 2018-04-08T09:51:12Z phoe: That's more or less how backquotes work - they allow you to selectively quote parts of your expression and insert values from outside the backquote whenever you want them to. 2018-04-08T09:51:41Z phoe: or rather, wherever you want them to. 2018-04-08T09:52:57Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:53:38Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:54:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T09:55:53Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-08T09:56:39Z Shinmera: (set-macro-character #\， (lambda (s c) (values))) '(a， b， c) ;=> (A B C) 2018-04-08T09:56:42Z Shinmera: :^) 2018-04-08T09:56:48Z makomo: uh oh 2018-04-08T09:58:14Z phoe: Shinmera: well 2018-04-08T10:00:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:02:16Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:03:12Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T10:04:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:04:50Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:05:29Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:08:17Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:08:57Z kqr: phoe, oh dear god I missed the initial backquote! 2018-04-08T10:09:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:10:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:11:35Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:11:58Z ft joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:12:44Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:13:52Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:14:43Z kozy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T10:14:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:16:15Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-08T10:16:40Z elderK: Goodnight all :) 2018-04-08T10:16:48Z elderK: Uni starts back tomorrow. Early morning start is going to be brutal. 2018-04-08T10:16:57Z phoe: elderK: good luck 2018-04-08T10:16:59Z elderK: :P See you sometime tomorrow probably. 2018-04-08T10:17:01Z elderK: thanks :D 2018-04-08T10:17:03Z elderK: I'll need it :P 2018-04-08T10:17:12Z elderK puts alarm clock as far from self as possible. 2018-04-08T10:17:18Z elderK quit (Quit: Seeya!) 2018-04-08T10:17:55Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:25:47Z phoe: After I makunbound a special-proclaimed symbol and intern a new one with the same name, the special proclamation no longer is in effect, correct? 2018-04-08T10:25:57Z phoe: Since the proclamation is bound to the symbol and not its name AFAIU. 2018-04-08T10:27:09Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:27:16Z spacebat1: I recall running into proclamation related issues in sbcl when redefining structs recently 2018-04-08T10:27:51Z spacebat1: I thought that I even uninterned the symbols but the problem persisted - maybe I'm misremembering 2018-04-08T10:28:31Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T10:29:59Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:30:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:30:24Z eSVG quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T10:30:31Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T10:30:57Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:32:50Z Shinmera: phoe: the special declaration has nothing to do with whether the symbol is bound or not 2018-04-08T10:33:00Z Shinmera: Consider (defvar *foo*) 2018-04-08T10:33:07Z Shinmera: This is unbound, but it is special. 2018-04-08T10:33:36Z Shinmera: Also, you don't intern variables, you intern symbols. 2018-04-08T10:33:55Z Shinmera: If you removed the symbol from the package, and then interned a new one with the same name, it should no longer be special. 2018-04-08T10:34:06Z Shinmera: since it is a new symbol altogether. 2018-04-08T10:34:09Z phoe: Shinmera: i didn't say I intern a variable. 2018-04-08T10:34:27Z Shinmera: Ah, I misread, my bad. 2018-04-08T10:34:29Z phoe: Oh wait. I see what you mean. 2018-04-08T10:34:45Z phoe: s/makunbound/unintern/ 2018-04-08T10:34:46Z Shinmera: But makunbound is still for bindings, not symbols. 2018-04-08T10:34:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:34:58Z phoe: Right, thanks for the correction. 2018-04-08T10:35:59Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T10:37:09Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:40:39Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:41:00Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T10:44:43Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:45:51Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T10:46:11Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-08T10:49:34Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:49:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:53:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-08T10:55:47Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T10:58:17Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:01:12Z fortitude_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T11:01:16Z phoe: Hummmmmm... I've come far enough in my Lisp writing to start wondering what exactly happens when. 2018-04-08T11:01:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:01:38Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:02:08Z Shinmera: ? 2018-04-08T11:02:30Z phoe: I need an instance to be created before macroexpansion time, so that instance can then be used for outputting the macro expansion. 2018-04-08T11:03:04Z Shinmera: Stuff it in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defvar *my-instance* ..)) 2018-04-08T11:04:28Z phoe: But that instance depends on other instances that have been created before. 2018-04-08T11:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T11:04:41Z Shinmera: And? 2018-04-08T11:04:47Z phoe: Like, I create instance A, and instance B which depends on A. 2018-04-08T11:05:04Z Shinmera: Yes, so? 2018-04-08T11:05:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:05:30Z phoe: Right now when I DEFUN a function that creates two instances in a row, the first gets created normally, but the second one cannot see the first. 2018-04-08T11:05:49Z phoe: So there's some side effect that does not get executed - possibly a SETF GETHASH since I store them in a hashtable. 2018-04-08T11:06:02Z Shinmera: I don't understand. What does it mean for a function to create "two instances in a row"? 2018-04-08T11:06:07Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T11:06:42Z phoe: (defun foo () (make-my-thing 'a) (make-my-thing 'b)) 2018-04-08T11:06:55Z phoe: where MAKE-MY-THING creates an instance named A and stores it in a hashtable. 2018-04-08T11:07:03Z Shinmera: Okey. 2018-04-08T11:07:13Z phoe: Then the other tries to make an instance named B that depends on the instance named A (I forgot to write that one). 2018-04-08T11:07:16Z phoe: But it can't find it. 2018-04-08T11:07:28Z Shinmera: That has nothing to do with compilation. 2018-04-08T11:08:12Z Shinmera: Your code is going wrong somewhere else. 2018-04-08T11:08:40Z phoe: Ooooh. The instance gets created at macroexpansion-time but the push to hash-table is deferred until runtime. 2018-04-08T11:08:49Z Shinmera: The obvious fix is to make the dependencies explicit, meaning you pass the instance returned from the first call to the second call. 2018-04-08T11:08:50Z phoe: That is why B can't find A, because A was not yet pushed to the hashtable. 2018-04-08T11:09:25Z Bike: so, make-my-thing actually doesn't store it in the table? 2018-04-08T11:09:25Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 5 hours, 1 minute ago: - I relearned the lesson - don't use ANYTHING from an llvm::Module after it's passed to the ORC JIT engine. Not functions, not globals, not nuthin'. It all goes *poof* as soon as it's JITted. 2018-04-08T11:09:25Z Colleen: Bike: jackdaniel said 3 hours, 48 minutes ago: I think I've found a regression caused by change in update-dependants – when I figure out the fix I'll make a PR to clasp as well 2018-04-08T11:09:25Z Colleen: Bike: jackdaniel said 3 hours, 47 minutes ago: basically forward-class-references doesn't work, i.e in the same file: (defclass foo (bar) ()) (defclass bar () ()) 2018-04-08T11:09:25Z Colleen: Bike: jackdaniel said 2 hours, 33 minutes ago: nevermind last message, that problem is related to clos::*clos-booted* being T 2018-04-08T11:09:28Z Bike: holy geez 2018-04-08T11:09:51Z Shinmera: Looks like you're popular ;) 2018-04-08T11:11:19Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:11:57Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T11:13:01Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:17:12Z disumu joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:18:33Z phoe: Bike: make-my-thing is a macro. It instantiates the thing at compile-time and expands to code that pushes it into the table *and* into code that is based on this value.. 2018-04-08T11:19:05Z phoe: Now that I read what I typed up above it seems it's a mess. 2018-04-08T11:19:14Z Bike: so you're not actually calling foo at compile time 2018-04-08T11:19:40Z phoe: No, it's a mess. I'll take a step back and try to figure out what goes where and when. 2018-04-08T11:23:07Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:26:09Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:28:04Z sword`` joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:28:07Z sword` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T11:30:37Z phoe: I need to figure out when I want to create the instances and when I want to check for dependencies. 2018-04-08T11:31:01Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-08T11:31:21Z phoe: If I create B, and B depends on A, then A must already be created, and the check must be done after A's creation but before B completes its initialization. 2018-04-08T11:31:32Z phoe: That is my current logic. 2018-04-08T11:37:02Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T11:37:27Z phoe: I think I need two stores for these values. One of them must be compile-time, and the other must be run-time. 2018-04-08T11:37:49Z phoe: Because when I compile such a form, I don't want the instance to pollute my runtime environment, but I nonetheless want to keep track of it. 2018-04-08T11:38:02Z phoe: And when I actually run that code, I want the instance to be recorded in my run-time store. 2018-04-08T11:39:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T11:39:23Z Bike: do you need this store for other things? 2018-04-08T11:39:48Z phoe: Bike: the compile-time store, no. the run-time store, yes - it is the main way of accessing these instances. 2018-04-08T11:40:39Z phoe: I am tempted to try using (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) despite Fare having mentioned that it is dangerous for sanity... 2018-04-08T11:41:03Z Bike: ok i really don't understand your architecture. but if you just put a literal object in your code, and it has another object in a slot, the implementation will work out dependencies 2018-04-08T11:41:27Z makomo: can i symlink a directory which contains one directory for every project (with an asd file) into quicklisp's local-projects? 2018-04-08T11:41:34Z makomo: or am i supposed to symlink individual project directories 2018-04-08T11:41:42Z phoe: makomo: symlink it whole, I do that 2018-04-08T11:41:58Z makomo: i did that before, but then sometimes quickload wouldn't be able to find the system 2018-04-08T11:42:01Z phoe: I don't have literal objects there, only symbols that name the other objects. I do that indirection to be able to redefine the other objects later. 2018-04-08T11:42:03Z spacebat1: phoe: it is dangerous to use eval-when without specifying all 3 evaluation phases 2018-04-08T11:42:06Z makomo: am i supposed to run (ql:register-local-projects) manually? 2018-04-08T11:42:13Z Bike: i definitely don't understand. 2018-04-08T11:42:16Z phoe: spacebat1: I know, I've read Fare's text about it. 2018-04-08T11:42:18Z Bike: makomo: when you change the contents, yes. 2018-04-08T11:42:27Z phoe: Bike: okay. Let me write that down. 2018-04-08T11:42:33Z makomo: Bike: changing the contents being "adding or removing project directories"? 2018-04-08T11:42:39Z Bike: yeah. 2018-04-08T11:42:42Z makomo: hmm ok 2018-04-08T11:42:53Z Bike: what quicklisp does is maintain a list of asds in local projects. 2018-04-08T11:42:58Z Bike: the list is created by register-local-projects. 2018-04-08T11:43:07Z spacebat1: makomo: look at qlot 2018-04-08T11:43:37Z Bike: that's what the system-index.txt is. 2018-04-08T11:44:52Z spacebat1: phoe: I've seen code that does this compile time recording of declarations for use later at runtime, a sort of registry 2018-04-08T11:45:28Z spacebat1: it works well enough so long as the code documents the side effects of the macros clearly 2018-04-08T11:45:37Z spacebat1: are you sure you're not overcomplicating things? 2018-04-08T11:45:58Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-08T11:46:37Z phoe: spacebat1: hmm 2018-04-08T11:46:47Z phoe: I will finish real life stuff and then sit down to think of it 2018-04-08T11:46:48Z phoe: brb for now 2018-04-08T11:54:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:07:23Z makomo: what would be a good way to output a string like ": ", given just a symbol 2018-04-08T12:07:53Z makomo: for example, i would like a FORMAT formatter ~something that would do that for me, but FORMAT is a function so the symbol names are lost after evaluation 2018-04-08T12:08:13Z phoe: makomo: this will only work for special variables 2018-04-08T12:08:16Z phoe: and not for lexical ones 2018-04-08T12:08:44Z makomo: for example, (format t "~{~name~^~%~}" '(v1 v2 v3)) and this would print "v1: \n..." 2018-04-08T12:08:52Z makomo: hm, yeah 2018-04-08T12:09:07Z phoe: to do this properly you need a macro, (defmacro symbol-print (symbol) `(format t "~S: ~S" ',symbol ,symbol)) 2018-04-08T12:09:07Z makomo: so it would have to be a macro for this to work 2018-04-08T12:09:09Z makomo: which format is not 2018-04-08T12:09:14Z makomo: yes :^/ 2018-04-08T12:09:27Z makomo: but then i'm "hardcoding" what i can print 2018-04-08T12:09:28Z phoe: (symbol-print foo) ;=> (format t "~S: ~S" 'foo foo) 2018-04-08T12:09:35Z makomo: i.e. symbol-print can only print symbols like that 2018-04-08T12:09:41Z makomo: ideally i would just like a custom FORMAT formatter 2018-04-08T12:09:48Z phoe: makomo: you can't do that 2018-04-08T12:09:49Z makomo: i know it's impossible, but are there any such solutions? 2018-04-08T12:09:54Z makomo: i.e. other than FORMAT 2018-04-08T12:10:02Z phoe: no function can do that. 2018-04-08T12:10:09Z makomo: yes, i mean in general, a library or something 2018-04-08T12:10:27Z makomo: which provides a macro version of FORMAT where such a thing would be possible 2018-04-08T12:10:28Z Bike: if you're talking about lexical variables it's impossible 2018-04-08T12:10:44Z Bike: semantically, at runtime there's no need for a link between a variable and its name 2018-04-08T12:11:12Z Bike: and compilers tend to remove it except for debugging purposes 2018-04-08T12:11:50Z makomo: yeah, i understand that it's impossible to do with lexical variables if FORMAT is a function 2018-04-08T12:11:57Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T12:12:00Z makomo: i've written a small macro that does it, but it's quite limited 2018-04-08T12:12:10Z Bike: i mean it's impossible if you want to provide a list of symbols that isn't hardcoded 2018-04-08T12:12:31Z Shinmera: Why do you want this to be some general operator? I don't see this situation being very frequent. 2018-04-08T12:12:31Z makomo: it will be, it's just syntactic sugar really 2018-04-08T12:12:43Z Bike: or did you mean you want the format string to be non hardcoded 2018-04-08T12:12:51Z makomo: Shinmera: just some yak shaving tbh, because i want to save 5 characters of typing :D 2018-04-08T12:12:58Z Bike: alright i'm done caring then 2018-04-08T12:13:01Z makomo: Bike: the format string itself 2018-04-08T12:13:09Z phoe: makomo: write something more advanced that expands to a FORMAT, (powerformat foo t "~A ~A ~A~%" :symbol 2 :value) ;=> (format t "~A ~A ~A~%" 'foo 2 foo) 2018-04-08T12:13:35Z phoe: where it replaces :symbol with the quoted thing you supplied it and :value with unquoted symbol you supplied 2018-04-08T12:15:14Z makomo: yup, something like that is what i wrote. hm ok, interesting to think about it at least 2018-04-08T12:15:28Z makomo: even if it's practically not really useful 2018-04-08T12:15:29Z Shinmera: (defmacro varformat (o s &rest v) `(format ,o ,s ,@(loop for i in v collect `',i collect i))) ; (let ((a 0) (b "b") (c :c)) (varformat NIL "~@{~&<~a>: ~a~}" a b c)) 2018-04-08T12:15:55Z phoe: Shinmera: geez 2018-04-08T12:16:00Z makomo: Shinmera: literally what i did 2018-04-08T12:16:03Z makomo: noice 2018-04-08T12:16:22Z phoe: that format string made me stop for a while 2018-04-08T12:17:30Z makomo: Shinmera: ohh, the ~@ is what i was needing 2018-04-08T12:17:38Z makomo: so it collects the rest of the args as a list 2018-04-08T12:18:05Z phoe: clhs ~@ 2018-04-08T12:18:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 2018-04-08T12:18:23Z Shinmera: It's actually ~{, just with the @ modifier. 2018-04-08T12:18:27Z makomo: yeah, i understand that 2018-04-08T12:18:34Z phoe: oh wait, right 2018-04-08T12:18:40Z makomo: lol 2018-04-08T12:18:56Z phoe: I was bamboozled for a moment 2018-04-08T12:19:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:19:53Z phoe: I think I figured my thing out. I basically need two stores for my instances - one being a compile-time store to which *all* compiled instances register, and the other being a run-time store which registers only instances for which the code which they macroexpand into is called. 2018-04-08T12:20:20Z Shinmera: I still have no idea what you're doing 2018-04-08T12:20:21Z phoe: And the macroexpansion code is like (setf (gethash (name instance) *run-time-store*) instance) where INSTANCE is some literal object. 2018-04-08T12:20:25Z Shinmera: but good you found a solution I guess 2018-04-08T12:20:51Z phoe: Shinmera: working on my library for implementing protocols. 2018-04-08T12:21:03Z phoe: A protocol is an object that has definition for some protocol classes, functions, variables and so on. 2018-04-08T12:21:19Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-08T12:21:22Z phoe: I instantiate it from a set of forms that describe what the resulting protocol looks like. 2018-04-08T12:21:41Z phoe: And from these forms, I compute code that calls DEFCLASS, DEFGENERIC, DEFVAR nd so on. 2018-04-08T12:21:55Z phoe: So first I need to grab the forms, then create an instance based on them. 2018-04-08T12:22:08Z phoe: Then I need to grab the instance and use it to output Lisp code. 2018-04-08T12:22:20Z phoe: Then I need to put that code in the macroexpansion. 2018-04-08T12:22:28Z Shinmera: Just do it in two steps 2018-04-08T12:23:07Z phoe: Yep, that's what I figured out. The first step is creating that instance and registering it in the compile-time store, so other instances that depend on it can find their dependency in the compile-time store. 2018-04-08T12:23:11Z Shinmera: (defmacro define-whatever (..) `(setf (some-type ..) ..)) (defmacro expand-whatever (..) (expand (some-type ..))) 2018-04-08T12:23:41Z phoe: Then, when the instance is actually "applied" to the image, the macroexpanded code is evaluated, and the instance is added to the run-time store. 2018-04-08T12:27:59Z pierpa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T12:30:26Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:31:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T12:32:06Z phoe: ahhh, compile-time computing~ 2018-04-08T12:34:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:35:09Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T12:36:35Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:37:34Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:37:51Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-08T12:41:48Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T12:44:35Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T12:44:56Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:47:31Z phoe: This approach means that the contents of the compile-time store will *not* be transferred over to the FASLs. 2018-04-08T12:47:47Z phoe: Which is good, because I do not need it there. 2018-04-08T12:49:11Z phoe: If I understand it correctly, the instances will be dumped into the FASL though, because the generated code will issue SETF GETHASH with the literal object as an argument. 2018-04-08T12:49:51Z phoe: This is fun. 2018-04-08T12:49:56Z Bike: remember to put in a make load form, then 2018-04-08T12:50:26Z phoe: Bike: the compiler reminded me to do that 2018-04-08T12:50:34Z Folkol quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-08T12:50:48Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:50:52Z phoe: since I tried to dump a standard-object which, with the default method, is an error. 2018-04-08T12:51:17Z phoe: Luckily my instances are dumb enough to be dumpable using make-load-form-saving-slots. 2018-04-08T12:53:37Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T12:53:44Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:56:15Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-08T12:59:07Z Folkol joined 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Investigating postmodern to see if it handles this. 2018-04-08T15:22:08Z ckonstanski: I could convert to base64 and store in a text field with clsql, but I'd rather let the database driver manage it. 2018-04-08T15:23:16Z ckonstanski: Clojure and JDBC interop is an option if one is willing to sell one's soul. 2018-04-08T15:26:41Z Xach: I like postmodern because it does less, but happens to do exactly what I need. 2018-04-08T15:26:55Z Xach: clsql did more than i needed and the complexity confused me at times 2018-04-08T15:27:10Z Xach: I don't think clsql is "bad", but for my purposes, postmodern is better 2018-04-08T15:32:36Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:34:50Z ckonstanski: pg-dot-lisp also looks promising. I actually don't want to convert all my SQL strings to postmodern lispy syntax. I already invested a lot of effort into writing an entity framework that converts objects to SQL. 2018-04-08T15:36:34Z rixard joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:38:24Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:40:01Z rixard quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T15:41:04Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T15:44:59Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T15:46:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:47:19Z Guest69087 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:48:35Z Guest69087 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T15:50:43Z dim: ckonstanski: s-sql is but an option, you don't need to use it 2018-04-08T15:50:51Z dim: Postmodern is quite good really 2018-04-08T15:50:57Z ebrasca left #lisp 2018-04-08T15:51:15Z Shinmera: postmodern supports sql strings just fine 2018-04-08T15:51:16Z dim: and I think you can just using vectors of '(unsigned-byte 8) for bytea 2018-04-08T15:51:43Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T15:57:33Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T15:57:54Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T15:58:11Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T16:04:28Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:04:35Z ckonstanski: This is encouraging. 2018-04-08T16:09:23Z try_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:09:49Z try_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T16:10:54Z try_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:11:16Z libreman joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:11:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T16:12:18Z try_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T16:14:35Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:17:09Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:17:45Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T16:21:53Z Fare: more fixes to asdf tests on Windows. Portability is horrible. 2018-04-08T16:22:45Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T16:22:48Z Fare: And corner case behaviors of asdf that even I don't fully understand. 2018-04-08T16:23:13Z Fare: (At least without going deep in the code, which I probably could do, unlike newcomers to the code base) 2018-04-08T16:28:36Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:28:42Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:35:51Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T16:37:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:44:51Z bjorkintosh: Well, given how much M$ is embracing linux these days, it might no longer be necessary to port a linux program to windows anymore! 2018-04-08T16:45:02Z bjorkintosh: just install the required system and run it from there. 2018-04-08T16:47:41Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T16:47:47Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T16:47:47Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T16:49:54Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:49:56Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:51:43Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-08T16:51:58Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:55:36Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-08T16:55:48Z detectiveaoi joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:55:51Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T16:57:45Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-08T16:58:00Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:00:01Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:01:39Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-08T17:01:54Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:03:07Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-08T17:03:54Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:05:04Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:06:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T17:08:25Z nmajo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T17:08:40Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T17:13:43Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:19:26Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:20:13Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:21:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:25:47Z MasouDa quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-08T17:26:14Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:29:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:33:04Z dessm joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:34:11Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:35:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:39:33Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:42:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:42:27Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:43:50Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:44:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:47:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:47:45Z cmecca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:49:33Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:50:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:50:15Z cmecca joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:50:35Z cmecca is now known as Guest15392 2018-04-08T17:50:59Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:52:35Z myrkraverk_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:53:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:55:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T17:57:08Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T17:58:32Z Shinmera: As previously announced, I'll be streaming me putting together my ELS talk tonight. In case you're interested in hanging out on a Sunday evening, you're more than welcome to join me. https://stream.shinmera.com/ 2018-04-08T17:58:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:00:32Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:01:03Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:01:20Z haz joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:01:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:04:47Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:06:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:06:27Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:07:02Z flip214: Shinmera: no fun without sound ;) 2018-04-08T18:07:02Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:07:10Z Shinmera: ? there is sound 2018-04-08T18:07:39Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:07:41Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:07:46Z larsen joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:09:16Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:09:17Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T18:09:17Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:09:46Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:09:57Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:10:39Z Patternmaster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:11:22Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:11:24Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:11:43Z flip214: hmm, had none. 2018-04-08T18:11:47Z flip214: and made sure to unmute. 2018-04-08T18:11:50Z flip214: but never mind. 2018-04-08T18:12:16Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:12:42Z kerrhau- joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:12:51Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:12:53Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:13:59Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:14:02Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:14:16Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:14:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:14:34Z phoe: ckonstanski: I have just been doing bytea handling in postmodern 2018-04-08T18:14:41Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:16:11Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:17:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:17:18Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:17:29Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/uTpjNtHG <- this contains a snippet of my cl-yesql/postmodern code and the matching Lisp function 2018-04-08T18:17:36Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:17:42Z phoe: the function derive-key returns two hex strings, hash and salt 2018-04-08T18:17:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:17:54Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:18:24Z phoe: when I write them to a bytea field (which is pass_hash and pass_salt) then they get written correctly; when I select back from that column, I get u8 vectors. 2018-04-08T18:18:46Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:18:56Z phoe: I have no idea how to do it in a more optimized way, without converting it to a hex string first. It might be required to add this to postmodern . 2018-04-08T18:20:00Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:20:14Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:21:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:24:16Z detectiveaoi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:24:36Z detectiveaoi joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:24:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T18:29:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:32:53Z detectiveaoi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:33:08Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:33:11Z detectiveaoi joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:34:14Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:34:37Z detectiveaoi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:37:00Z haz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T18:39:57Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-08T18:40:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:40:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:41:10Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:41:58Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T18:44:52Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:45:06Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:46:23Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:46:38Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-08T18:47:34Z yoel quit 2018-04-08T18:50:23Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:52:26Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-08T18:58:17Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T18:58:49Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:01:48Z CodeOrangutan joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:02:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:02:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:09:33Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:10:22Z nulquen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T19:11:34Z nulquen joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:12:21Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T19:12:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:12:57Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:13:30Z nulquen quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T19:13:30Z nulquen joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:15:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:17:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:18:14Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:18:29Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:19:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:22:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:24:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:25:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:30:04Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:32:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:33:09Z pierpa: beach: slide 8: froms -> forms, methinks 2018-04-08T19:39:26Z mejja joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:39:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:42:15Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-08T19:44:01Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-08T19:44:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:51:19Z CodeOrangutan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:51:57Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-08T19:54:57Z zotan quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-08T19:55:28Z getha quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-08T19:59:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:00:43Z zotan joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:05:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:05:47Z thijso joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:09:43Z makomo: what would be a nice way to handle this parse-error? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/760#760 2018-04-08T20:09:51Z makomo: if the error happens i just want to write the message and quit 2018-04-08T20:10:38Z phoe: makomo: handler-case 2018-04-08T20:11:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:11:19Z makomo: i've looked at it, but how exactly would i use it in this case 2018-04-08T20:11:25Z phoe: (defun main () (let* ((line (read-line))) (handler-case (mapcar #'parse-integer (ppcre:split "," line)) (parse-error () (format t "Invalid input!~%"))))) 2018-04-08T20:11:47Z makomo: yes, but i want to quit main, as more stuff will follow when the input is actually valid 2018-04-08T20:11:49Z makomo: i want to bail early 2018-04-08T20:11:55Z phoe: this will quit main 2018-04-08T20:12:12Z phoe: HANDLER-CASE first performs a non-local transfer of control to the handler body, evaluates its forms, and then control goes out of HANDLER-CASE 2018-04-08T20:12:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:12:23Z phoe: so this will quit right after evaluating FORMAT 2018-04-08T20:12:38Z makomo: phoe: right, but it will quit by return from the handler-case 2018-04-08T20:12:49Z makomo: what i will have next is some code after the handler-case 2018-04-08T20:12:55Z makomo: i don't want that to execute unless input was valid 2018-04-08T20:13:01Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:13:01Z makomo: returning* 2018-04-08T20:13:17Z Bike: you could have your handler return-from main 2018-04-08T20:13:22Z phoe: (parse-error () (format t "Invalid input!~%") (return-from main)) 2018-04-08T20:13:42Z phoe: modify the clause so it contains a return-from after the format 2018-04-08T20:14:03Z makomo: so pretty much what i already had with the handler-bind 2018-04-08T20:14:07Z phoe: yes 2018-04-08T20:14:11Z makomo: the behavior is exactly the same, but i guess handler-case has nicer syntax 2018-04-08T20:14:17Z phoe: except rewritten into a handler-case for a bit more of brevi--- yes 2018-04-08T20:14:21Z makomo: i'm basically avoiding handler-case's transfer of contorl 2018-04-08T20:14:30Z makomo: by using return-from main 2018-04-08T20:14:31Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:14:31Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:14:41Z makomo: alright, it'll do 2018-04-08T20:14:42Z phoe: except you already transfer the control from the parse-integer which signals parse-error 2018-04-08T20:15:21Z phoe: but in the end it doesn't matter because control leaves the function anyway 2018-04-08T20:15:25Z makomo: yeah 2018-04-08T20:15:57Z Nouv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:15:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:17:09Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:21:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:23:22Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:24:58Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T20:26:28Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:28:02Z LdBeth: Is ADVISE implemented in most Common Lisps? 2018-04-08T20:28:36Z Bike: i don't think so. 2018-04-08T20:28:59Z oleo: nope 2018-04-08T20:29:00Z Xach: It used to be. 2018-04-08T20:29:33Z rme: ccl has it 2018-04-08T20:30:58Z LdBeth: Yes I’m reading CCL’s manual 2018-04-08T20:32:29Z LdBeth: I wonder should I use ADVISE as debug method in my own program, while portability is desired but not necessary 2018-04-08T20:32:46Z phoe: LdBeth: what are you trying to debug? 2018-04-08T20:32:52Z phoe: TRACE works for me in most cases 2018-04-08T20:34:21Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-08T20:34:25Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T20:36:00Z LdBeth: phoe: Generally, an assembler function examines if it is called with valid arguments 2018-04-08T20:36:54Z LdBeth: Like oversized opcodes 2018-04-08T20:36:58Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:37:08Z phoe: LdBeth: why not implement these checks explicitly as functions? 2018-04-08T20:38:10Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:38:28Z LdBeth: phoe: good idea. 2018-04-08T20:38:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:39:07Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-08T20:39:16Z phoe: LdBeth: if they are so important that you want to preserve them in general, then make them explicit. 2018-04-08T20:39:30Z Xach joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:39:54Z phoe: If you want to disable them later for some kind of non-debug production deployment, you can do that as well via some magic switch or via recompiling the code 2018-04-08T20:41:17Z LdBeth: Magic macro expansion 2018-04-08T20:41:35Z LdBeth: : ) 2018-04-08T20:41:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:42:39Z phoe: yep, (defmacro my-code (args) `(,@(when *debug `((check-args ,args))) (compile-stuff ,args))) 2018-04-08T20:42:51Z phoe: s/*debug/*debug*/ 2018-04-08T20:53:53Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-08T20:54:57Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T20:57:04Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T20:57:10Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-08T20:57:21Z Bronsa` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:02:00Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:06:02Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:07:59Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:08:00Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:10:37Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:12:12Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:12:14Z ldb: sup 2018-04-08T21:17:52Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:21:06Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:21:13Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-08T21:21:29Z ldb quit (Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc) 2018-04-08T21:27:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:30:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:32:09Z jstypo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:35:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T21:41:34Z dTal: y 2018-04-08T21:41:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:49:38Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:51:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T21:54:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:01:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:03:18Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T22:05:55Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:08:17Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:09:47Z figurehe4d joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:12:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T22:16:39Z chris-done joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:18:16Z aoeu joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:18:43Z chris-done: been away from lisp for years, just loading up quicklisp. ql:quickload on clx runs successfully: * (ql:quickload "clx") => To load "clx": Load 1 ASDF system: clx ; Loading "clx" ("clx") 2018-04-08T22:18:57Z mlf|2 joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:18:57Z chris-done: how do i use-package clx now? 2018-04-08T22:19:27Z mflem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-08T22:19:37Z chris-done: i want to run for example (clx:open-display ...) in the repl 2018-04-08T22:19:42Z Bike: you can just do that 2018-04-08T22:19:51Z Bike: well, it might not work since clx is weird, i dunno 2018-04-08T22:20:06Z Bike: but there won't be any problems with the symbol 2018-04-08T22:20:50Z chris-done: that says this: * (use-package 'clx) debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR in thread #: The name CLX does not designate any package. 2018-04-08T22:21:16Z chris-done: i tried use-package on "clx" too. i'm rather confused 2018-04-08T22:21:38Z chris-done: do i have to invoke some ASDF incantations separately to quicklisp? 2018-04-08T22:21:54Z Bike: nope 2018-04-08T22:22:00Z Bike: ah, i see. the package is actually called xlib. 2018-04-08T22:22:17Z Bike: (xlib:open-display ....) 2018-04-08T22:22:41Z chris-done: ohhh. well that explains it! 2018-04-08T22:22:49Z chris-done: thanks 2018-04-08T22:22:50Z chris-done: by the way, how did you discover that? 2018-04-08T22:22:59Z Bike: looked up the source on github. 2018-04-08T22:23:32Z makomo: chris-done: the convetional file that defines packages would be "package.lisp" so look for those 2018-04-08T22:23:41Z makomo: conventional* 2018-04-08T22:23:52Z chris-done: ah, thanks 2018-04-08T22:23:55Z Shinmera: Well three ways: 1) quicklisp prints the package names it loads 2) (list-all-packages) 3) (apropos "open-display") 2018-04-08T22:24:17Z Xach: sorry to be away, but the clx/xlib thing comes up a lot (at least once per year) 2018-04-08T22:24:56Z Shinmera: Apropos is pretty nifty, but a lot of people forget it exists 2018-04-08T22:25:00Z Shinmera: myself included 2018-04-08T22:29:54Z chris-done: the package works spiffingly. thanks everybody! 2018-04-08T22:35:27Z sucks joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:35:28Z sucks quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-08T22:37:49Z fourier: I feel 'apropos as well as 'documentation should better be a part of an IDE, not a language. why they are even there 2018-04-08T22:38:22Z Bike: so that an ide can call them 2018-04-08T22:38:48Z Xach: fourier: an interactive tradition. 2018-04-08T22:39:20Z Shinmera: I for one am really glad docstrings are part of the implementation. 2018-04-08T22:39:39Z Shinmera: Or rather, part of the guaranteed environment. 2018-04-08T22:39:39Z fourier: yep but ide can call them without having them as part of the standard. besides documentation is not even full, one cant document slots for instance 2018-04-08T22:40:17Z Bike: ? you can document slots. 2018-04-08T22:40:20Z fourier: .. and rather minimalistic one. not terribly a lot of people are doing CL without IDE 2018-04-08T22:40:31Z Shinmera: Bike: But the standard doesn't say how to retrieve them with DOCUMENTATION 2018-04-08T22:40:37Z Bike: yeah, you need mop i guess. 2018-04-08T22:41:34Z Shinmera: Having your editor have to crawl all source files to get docstrings sounds real shit to me 2018-04-08T22:41:56Z Shinmera: Same with source info. Better to let the implementation track that. 2018-04-08T22:42:01Z chris-done: putting it in the standard means every implementation has to expose a bare minimum of documentation and discoverability 2018-04-08T22:42:29Z chris-done: haskell is my bread and butter and it doesn't have that, as a result even in 2017 there is no standard way to get docs from a compiled package 2018-04-08T22:42:39Z chris-done: sorry, we're in 2018 now. still the same 2018-04-08T22:42:53Z fourier: is there a doxygen/javadoc for haskell? 2018-04-08T22:43:06Z Xach: I learned about it from Philip Greenspun's greenspunning of tcl, by adding proc_doc so he could have his familiar docstrings available and browsable. 2018-04-08T22:43:08Z fourier: haskell docs on hackage looks neat 2018-04-08T22:44:46Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-08T22:45:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:47:05Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:47:13Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:47:14Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-08T22:47:14Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:48:14Z elderK quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T22:48:22Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T22:49:59Z LdBeth: fourier: once it was popular to have self contained develop environment 2018-04-08T22:51:08Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-08T22:51:37Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:52:19Z LdBeth: For Haskell, since it has only one de facto implementation, they can always implement features as packages 2018-04-08T22:52:29Z LdBeth: Or do anything they want 2018-04-08T22:53:09Z fourier: is hugs still alive then or everyone uses ghc? 2018-04-08T22:53:33Z dTal: LdBeth: I would probably never have learned to program if not for QBasic 2018-04-08T22:53:47Z dTal: "self contained development environments" are awesome 2018-04-08T22:54:02Z LdBeth: Seems everyone uses GHC now 2018-04-08T22:55:02Z LdBeth: dTal: I agree, I started programming from GNU/Emacs. 2018-04-08T22:57:02Z Patzy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:57:02Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-08T22:57:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:57:28Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:57:34Z LdBeth: And I appreciate its interactive lisp mode. 2018-04-08T22:58:49Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-08T22:59:44Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-08T23:02:04Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-08T23:03:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-08T23:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-08T23:10:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-08T23:10:24Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-08T23:13:07Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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What are we doing talking about it in here? 2018-04-09T00:51:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T00:53:36Z Bike: you're an hour late 2018-04-09T00:54:05Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-09T00:54:22Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T00:55:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T00:56:46Z dessm joined #lisp 2018-04-09T00:59:22Z safe joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:00:08Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:00:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:01:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:01:51Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:04:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:05:12Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:06:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:09:13Z vancan1ty joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:09:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:10:19Z vancan1ty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T01:15:13Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:18:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:18:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:21:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:22:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:26:18Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:31:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:34:04Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-09T01:35:18Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:36:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:38:27Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T01:45:44Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:47:44Z jealousmonk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T01:50:35Z adjustingmaitai joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:53:39Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T01:55:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T01:58:27Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T02:01:06Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:01:21Z kolb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T02:01:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:02:05Z mrottenkolber is now known as Guest61466 2018-04-09T02:16:56Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T02:17:21Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T02:23:29Z dorothyw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T02:29:35Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:30:03Z warweasle quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T02:30:55Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T02:38:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-09T02:38:48Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T02:39:53Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T02:41:48Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:42:25Z smokeink quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T02:46:00Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:46:27Z ckonstanski: phoe: thanks! Sorry I'm only seeing your post now. 2018-04-09T02:50:47Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:50:53Z deng_cn quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T02:50:56Z nulquen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T02:51:18Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:51:36Z noa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:52:07Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-09T02:52:48Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-09T02:56:30Z noa quit (Quit: noa) 2018-04-09T02:58:57Z stylewarning: ELS is soon 2018-04-09T02:59:05Z stylewarning: who is going here? 2018-04-09T03:00:21Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T03:00:58Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:01:48Z rme: me, but that's not really news 2018-04-09T03:02:43Z vtomole: stylewarning: If only I wasn't so broke... Did you post that paper? 2018-04-09T03:02:51Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:03:08Z stylewarning: vtomole: I'm soliciting comments now! I'd be happy to receive feedback by end-of-tonight 2018-04-09T03:03:28Z lowryder joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:03:41Z stylewarning: vtomole: they'll still be posted on the arxiv, but the drafts are here that I'm in the process of cleaning up: the two papers are: Clifford groups: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c7lyau6sm9qefw8/benchmarking.pdf?dl=0 --- Quantum noise: https://www.dropbox.com/s/brszk9c89l8pjqo/noise.pdf?dl=0 2018-04-09T03:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:04:50Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:05:46Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:06:10Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T03:06:27Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:06:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:07:24Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:08:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:11:44Z aoeu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:11:53Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-09T03:13:53Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:14:05Z cmecca quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:14:28Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:15:12Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T03:16:33Z Chream_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:19:57Z jealousmonk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T03:29:02Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:34:45Z cibs_ is now known as cibs 2018-04-09T03:39:14Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-09T03:46:16Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:49:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T03:51:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:52:23Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T03:58:30Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-09T03:58:35Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T03:59:52Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T04:01:31Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-09T04:01:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:01:47Z beach: pierpa: Thanks! 2018-04-09T04:02:56Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:03:22Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:03:35Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:04:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:04:57Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:06:32Z marusich joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:13:05Z vtomole: stylewarning: Just finished the noise paper, starting the Clifford paper. I'm not sure how many programmers are familiar with Group theory (I assume it's very little), so I like how you give a quick introduction to it. I do suggest that people read the noise paper first as it gives a short introduction to Quantum computing. 2018-04-09T04:14:44Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:15:30Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-09T04:15:35Z cmecca joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:15:46Z cmecca is now known as Guest62920 2018-04-09T04:17:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:18:36Z stylewarning: actin 2018-04-09T04:18:43Z stylewarning: vtomole: thanks! 2018-04-09T04:20:02Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:21:02Z vtomole: stylewarning: On the Clifford group paper section 2 where you list the Pauli matrices, should the Z matrix have -1 instead of i on it's bottom right index? 2018-04-09T04:21:47Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:22:21Z ryanbw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T04:23:00Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:23:16Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T04:25:06Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:28:20Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:29:58Z dtornabene: curious if anyone knows of a way to programmatically create a postgres DB instance either from postmodern or another library 2018-04-09T04:30:12Z dtornabene: so far as I can tell postmodern leaves that up to you 2018-04-09T04:32:24Z Lord_Nig- joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:33:58Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:33:58Z Lord_Nig- is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-09T04:35:38Z sindan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T04:35:59Z sindan joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:36:29Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T04:36:36Z stylewarning: vtomole: wow, nice catch! I didn't notice the many times i looked 2018-04-09T04:37:11Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:39:40Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:39:51Z iqubic left #lisp 2018-04-09T04:40:29Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:41:15Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:41:38Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:41:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:42:35Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:42:59Z Winterschlaf joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:44:24Z H4 quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com) 2018-04-09T04:44:54Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-09T04:45:03Z vtomole: stylewarning: Thanks. I also have to say, I love the fact that you have working code in these papers so I can whip up a REPL and play around. Most researchers put up pseudo-code or worse, don't post any code at all. 2018-04-09T04:47:09Z stylewarning: vtomole: I plan on publishing the more complete code 2018-04-09T04:48:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:50:26Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:51:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:53:42Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T04:57:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T04:57:34Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:57:49Z loke: After having read a bunch of papers I'm stunned how they can pass peer review without iuncluding any code or data. 2018-04-09T04:58:19Z pillton: loke: In what field? 2018-04-09T04:58:27Z loke: pillton: Physics 2018-04-09T04:59:00Z loke: Also, some medical research. 2018-04-09T04:59:20Z beach: Code would probably be below their dignity. 2018-04-09T04:59:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T04:59:54Z loke: Yeah. Reproducibility isn't a thing. 2018-04-09T04:59:55Z loke: :-) 2018-04-09T05:00:06Z pillton: You assume that reviewers have the time to review the code. 2018-04-09T05:00:34Z beach: pillton: It is not just for them. It's for the general public. 2018-04-09T05:00:54Z beach: Without complete information, the experiments can't be reproduced. 2018-04-09T05:01:18Z beach: I had that problem with the International Computer Music Conference. 2018-04-09T05:01:44Z beach: There would be papers describing commercial, closed, code. Nobody could check their results. 2018-04-09T05:01:57Z pillton: You also have to consider an institutions attitude to intellectual property. 2018-04-09T05:02:05Z beach: Of course. 2018-04-09T05:02:09Z loke: beach: IMHO, such papers shouldn't be allowed. 2018-04-09T05:02:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:02:22Z beach: pillton: But then they should not be published in a scientific conference. 2018-04-09T05:02:34Z beach: pillton: They get to choose one or the other, but not both. 2018-04-09T05:02:39Z beach: loke: Exactly! 2018-04-09T05:03:10Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:03:21Z pillton: Sure. I am in two minds about it. You have to cut corners a lot to make deadlines. 2018-04-09T05:03:45Z beach: pillton: How is that related? 2018-04-09T05:04:10Z loke: beach: I'm curious if this is a problem in CS. Remarkably, I haven't read many CS papers, and the ones I have read are mostly about functional programming research, where they usually implement a whole language. Those languages are mostly available, I think, but I've never looked at them. :-) (a lot of FP research is pure nonsense IMHO) 2018-04-09T05:04:43Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:04:45Z loke: OK, I went off on a tnagent,m but my question is: Do CS papers ever not include code? 2018-04-09T05:04:58Z pillton: beach: Well, if you ask people to supply code, then you also have to accept the fact that the quality of the code will be low given the time constraints imposed by the paper deadline. 2018-04-09T05:05:21Z loke: pillton: The code isn't magically becoming higher quality if the code is not released. 2018-04-09T05:05:23Z beach: loke: Yes, many of them include just algorithms in pseudo code. Which is probably better anyway, since the specific language may obscure the results. 2018-04-09T05:05:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:06:16Z beach: pillton: Oh, I see what you mean. But then, that gives the reviewer the opportunity to do a conditional accept, with code improvements being the condition. 2018-04-09T05:06:18Z jackdaniel: having vaguely phrased paper with a few benchmarks is not worth much (especially when you are unable to implement it yourself, because it is too vague), they are just a way to say: hey, look, we're doing some cool stuff 2018-04-09T05:06:19Z loke: I mean, look at Knuth. It's deservedly well regarded, and he releases his code. His code is absolutely terrible, but that doesn't take away from his accomplishments. 2018-04-09T05:06:31Z pillton: loke: That is my point. They probably don't publish the code because it is held together with Bandaids and duck tape. 2018-04-09T05:06:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:07:00Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:07:01Z loke: pillton: Well, that's not much different from about 99% of commercial software. :-) 2018-04-09T05:07:05Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:07:11Z loke: At least in the Enterprise world. 2018-04-09T05:07:17Z jackdaniel: and such statement doesn't require publication, they could have tweeted, that they are doing some "cool stuff" ;-) 2018-04-09T05:07:20Z pillton: loke: Yes, because the chain of command simply doesn't care. 2018-04-09T05:08:16Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T05:08:42Z loke: But that argument is similar to saying that “I have a beautiful proof for a^n+b^n=c^n, n<2 but the margin is too small” 2018-04-09T05:09:03Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:09:04Z beach: loke: I am glad I am not the only one who considers Knuth's code to be absolutely awful. I am often surrounded by theoreticians who consider him a god, so I must be careful what I say in that presence. 2018-04-09T05:09:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:09:45Z loke: Sure, the margin may be too small, and the code may be too ugly, but at least people didn't trust Fermat's assesment until Wiles game up with a proper proof 2018-04-09T05:10:33Z loke: beach: I've noted that most theoreticians find no joy in producing beautiful code. 2018-04-09T05:10:48Z beach: pillton: It is not a human right to have a paper published in a scientific journal or a scientific conference. If people are not willing to make the code good enough for the standards of the discipline, the journal or conference should have the full right to reject the paper. 2018-04-09T05:11:09Z loke: beach: They have the right. They're just no using it. 2018-04-09T05:11:45Z pillton: beach: Sure, but you would have to pretty much change the entire system as it is currently. 2018-04-09T05:11:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:11:59Z beach: pillton: I have colleagues who are working on that. 2018-04-09T05:12:10Z beach: I am close to retirement, so I don't care so much anymore. 2018-04-09T05:12:36Z loke: pillton: Not that such a change wouldn't be beneficial, but still, you can start slowly. I believe the movement for reproducibility is doing that. 2018-04-09T05:12:42Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:13:01Z beach: pillton: ACM is in it as well, and that's a good sign. 2018-04-09T05:13:05Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:13:19Z loke: beach: SO you intend to retire? 2018-04-09T05:13:59Z beach: loke: Administratively, yes, at some point. I will have to. My activities will continue, though. 2018-04-09T05:14:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:15:31Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:15:37Z pillton: loke: There are a lot of fields where reproducibility would require ethics approval. 2018-04-09T05:15:51Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:16:01Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:16:20Z loke: pillton: That's a separate issue. CS and Physics definitely don';t. 2018-04-09T05:16:46Z loke: And the issue I had with medicine was mainly based on the software used to massage the data 2018-04-09T05:17:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:17:43Z loke: “We used X to filter out irrelevant data points”. What's X? THey never say. 2018-04-09T05:18:32Z pillton: Don't get me started on the peer review process. 2018-04-09T05:18:41Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:19:30Z jackdaniel: "How to create evil AI?" :) 2018-04-09T05:20:09Z loke: I mean, I don't work in academia so my exposure to papers are when I read about something and I want to see the source. I have never been part of the process myself, but it doesn't take an expert to see when the content of a paper is lacking. 2018-04-09T05:20:37Z loke: Interestingly enough, I find older papers to be a lot better in many ways, especially in CS. 2018-04-09T05:20:58Z loke: They're at least much more clear. 2018-04-09T05:21:19Z loke: (it can be argued it was because the field was younger, and the topics were simpler?) 2018-04-09T05:21:25Z loke: But it's true even for Physics. 2018-04-09T05:21:49Z White_Flame: I agree. Looking through old LISP-era (sic) papers, they were great in the past 2018-04-09T05:21:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:22:27Z White_Flame: I wonder what the sheer volume of publication back then vs now is, and how much shovelware came from both times 2018-04-09T05:22:57Z pillton: White_Flame: Toilet paper is being produced at an alarming rate. 2018-04-09T05:23:05Z loke: White_Flame: I guess so? I heard that prominent researchers could spend several years on a single paper back then, but they have to pblish much more these days. 2018-04-09T05:24:47Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:25:44Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:27:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:32:09Z dessm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T05:32:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:35:32Z slyrus_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T05:36:35Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:37:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:38:56Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T05:40:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:40:15Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T05:40:56Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T05:41:49Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:47:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:51:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T05:54:22Z hhh47 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:57:09Z hhh47 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T05:57:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T05:59:31Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-09T06:02:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:07:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:08:10Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:11:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T06:13:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:17:35Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:20:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:22:45Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:24:17Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:24:43Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:27:47Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:28:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:31:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:33:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:34:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:34:33Z johnnymacs joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:35:07Z johnnymacs: What are the minimum functions that you need to implement a lambda calculus that can make any other lambda calculus 2018-04-09T06:35:17Z johnnymacs: in other words what are the minimum atoms to a lambda calculus 2018-04-09T06:35:35Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T06:35:55Z Shinmera: lambda 2018-04-09T06:36:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:37:12Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:38:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:39:09Z johnnymacs: How can I encode a lambda expression as a list with integers in it 2018-04-09T06:39:44Z TMA: johnnymacs: unless you take the lisp-2 route where there is separate namespace for functions, then you will need funcall in addition to lambda 2018-04-09T06:40:06Z White_Flame: better to start with APPLY rather than FUNCALL; it'd be more flexible 2018-04-09T06:40:36Z johnnymacs: I am curious how I can serialize and deserialize lambdas 2018-04-09T06:40:44Z johnnymacs: like lets say I wanted to pass a lambda in json 2018-04-09T06:41:09Z Guest69321 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:41:57Z Guest69321 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:43:18Z TMA: johnnymacs: well, you need to encode (1) a variable (2) an application (3) a lambda term; 2018-04-09T06:44:55Z TMA: johnnymacs: a simple encoding: [1, variable_number] [2, expression1, expression2] [3, variable_number, expression] 2018-04-09T06:46:43Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:47:25Z TMA: johnnymacs: so for example (λu.u u) (λu.u u) would be: [2, [3, 1, [2, [1, 1], [1, 1]]], [3, 1, [2, [1, 1], [1, 1]]]] 2018-04-09T06:48:45Z White_Flame: a polish representation would be interesting 2018-04-09T06:49:03Z White_Flame: erm, polish notation 2018-04-09T06:50:06Z White_Flame: I think it would work as just 2 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 2018-04-09T06:50:15Z TMA: White_Flame: well, the parentheses could be unambiguously deduced from just the numbers 2018-04-09T06:50:33Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:50:54Z White_Flame: I've done a few forward polish systems, and they're ridiculously easy to implement in common HLLs 2018-04-09T06:51:49Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T06:51:49Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-09T06:55:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-09T06:59:59Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:02:12Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T07:04:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:08:59Z nullman` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:09:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:10:47Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:15:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:16:00Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T07:16:25Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:16:32Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:19:48Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:21:22Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:28:24Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:32:47Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:37:06Z chens quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T07:38:05Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T07:40:35Z Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:42:44Z Mental is now known as _Mental 2018-04-09T07:42:56Z _Mental quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T07:43:14Z Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:44:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:44:48Z Mental is now known as _Mental 2018-04-09T07:46:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:48:40Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:50:16Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:50:58Z verisimilitude: I find the issue with academia to be all of the mental masturbationd and faculty fellatio; that is, most of academia has its head up its ass and is proud of it. 2018-04-09T07:51:17Z White_Flame: it's all about gaming the metrics 2018-04-09T07:51:35Z White_Flame: because judgment is bad, policy has taken over 2018-04-09T07:51:39Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-09T07:52:00Z verisimilitude: Someone's feelings could get hurt. 2018-04-09T07:52:58Z verisimilitude: Of course, academia's problems also involve malicious administrations and other woes that do anything but teach or progress. 2018-04-09T07:53:37Z verisimilitude: Let's not forget public research paying for private journals. 2018-04-09T07:53:54Z verisimilitude: I don't see much Lisp in academia, however. 2018-04-09T07:53:59Z jackdaniel: it is a very harsh opinion - is it because you work in academia or rather a peanut gallery judgement? 2018-04-09T07:54:10Z verisimilitude: That's private. 2018-04-09T07:54:37Z verisimilitude: Most of the academics seem to have realized playing with functional languages, producing useless results that ostensibly have practical benefits, leads to more papers. 2018-04-09T07:55:14Z verisimilitude: Regardless, jackdaniel, I will tell you that I've had many discussions about this with university professors I'm acquainted with. 2018-04-09T07:55:42Z TMA: I have pondered what's wrong with academia. I have come up with several possible hypotheses. (And no solutions.) 2018-04-09T07:55:56Z verisimilitude: I'm aware of universities that were planning to demolish their libraries so they could rebuild them and add coffee shops and other nonsense. 2018-04-09T07:56:04Z verisimilitude: Burn it to the ground, TMA. 2018-04-09T07:56:05Z jackdaniel: are they aware you consider them as pals having heads up their asses and being proud of it? or you kept it for yourself? 2018-04-09T07:56:36Z TMA: verisimilitude: that too, is not a solution, although it might feel satisfactory 2018-04-09T07:56:44Z jackdaniel gets back to his bugquest 2018-04-09T07:56:54Z verisimilitude: These particular people didn't, I wouldn't write, but many of them did and I'm not one to hide my disgust with others. 2018-04-09T07:57:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T07:57:15Z verisimilitude: Most of them did, in one way or another, however. 2018-04-09T07:57:35Z verisimilitude: Also, I never wrote they were friends. 2018-04-09T07:58:46Z verisimilitude: But, yes, I was very open about ``So and so is a stupid jackass and here's why.''. 2018-04-09T07:58:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:59:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T07:59:48Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:00:17Z mlf|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-09T08:00:26Z jackdaniel: I'm not going to argue whenever academia is good or bad (I simply don't have enough information to judge), but I have a strong impression you are extremely rude person and it has nothing to do with honesty whatsoever 2018-04-09T08:01:03Z verisimilitude: Oh no, a rude Lisp programmer. 2018-04-09T08:02:09Z jackdaniel: rude person, I don't think status has much to do with it 2018-04-09T08:02:14Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:02:21Z verisimilitude: My disgust extends beyond anything resembling an on-topic discussion here, so I won't delve further into it, but one need only look at the garbage being taught. 2018-04-09T08:03:33Z verisimilitude: Anyway, driving this back to Lisp, what have you all been working on lately? 2018-04-09T08:04:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:04:39Z verisimilitude: Also, I don't want to paint myself in a bad light with you, jackdaniel; I'm typically only rude to people who deserve it and I don't know you at all. 2018-04-09T08:05:21Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:05:34Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:06:26Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T08:07:01Z jackdaniel: I know some people who work at universities and I'm sure they do not deserve this. I simply stated my opinion, that being rude is not something I'm fine with (disregarding of who you are). that said - this is indeed offtopic. 2018-04-09T08:08:57Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:09:13Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:11:22Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:15:31Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:16:18Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:16:22Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:17:59Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:19:41Z Shinmera: verisimilitude: Academia is off-topic. Please go to #lispcafe 2018-04-09T08:20:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:21:20Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:22:33Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:22:54Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:29:43Z beach resists going to #lispcafe for this discussion. 2018-04-09T08:30:30Z beach: jackdaniel: I admire your patience. 2018-04-09T08:31:46Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:32:02Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:32:16Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:32:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:34:24Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:36:40Z skbierm joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:37:25Z skbierm left #lisp 2018-04-09T08:40:45Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:41:14Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:41:47Z hajovonta: hi 2018-04-09T08:42:44Z beach: Hello hajovonta. 2018-04-09T08:42:47Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:44:03Z phoe: helloooo 2018-04-09T08:44:06Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T08:52:27Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T08:55:42Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-09T08:58:04Z playful-owl joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:00:17Z phoe: I joined mastodon. Find me at @phoe@functional.cafe. 2018-04-09T09:04:18Z oldtopman quit (Quit: *pouf*) 2018-04-09T09:04:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:06:58Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:09:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:10:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:11:48Z Xof: I missed an off-topic discussion I have opinions about! Oh no! 2018-04-09T09:13:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:14:45Z beach: Yeah, me too. But in this case, I don't think facts will change the opinion of the initiator. 2018-04-09T09:16:14Z beach: I also think it was a case of misjudging the audience. Probably because that person is relatively new to #lisp. 2018-04-09T09:17:04Z phoe: I honestly don't care and would just nudge the discussion to #lispcafe if Shinmera wasn't there to do it before me. 2018-04-09T09:17:35Z dtornabene: stupid question time: I'm trying to use the sbcl repl and load postmodern ... and failing? I'm using the incantation shown in the quick reference of the postmodern docs and it doesn't seem to be working 2018-04-09T09:17:43Z beach: phoe: I am not trying to continue it. Just explaining to Xof. 2018-04-09T09:17:56Z jackdaniel: dtornabene: what is the failure error? 2018-04-09T09:17:59Z jackdaniel: how do you load postmodern? 2018-04-09T09:18:07Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:18:12Z dtornabene: i should note I used quicklisp to load it originally 2018-04-09T09:18:28Z dtornabene: jackdaniel: I'll grab it for you, just a sec 2018-04-09T09:18:41Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:19:09Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:20:56Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:21:46Z dtornabene: jackdaniel: https://dpaste.de/vbUJ 2018-04-09T09:22:23Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:22:47Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:23:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:23:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:24:01Z phoe: beach: yep, I understand. 2018-04-09T09:24:03Z joh11 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:24:36Z phoe: dtornabene: are you loading from a clean REPL? 2018-04-09T09:24:37Z dtornabene: jackdaniel: i figured it out, I had polluted the namespace and was getting symbol conflicts, by restarting the repl, thanks for checking, appreciated 2018-04-09T09:24:39Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:24:41Z dtornabene: hahaha 2018-04-09T09:24:44Z phoe: yep, exactly this 2018-04-09T09:24:45Z dtornabene: nice timing 2018-04-09T09:24:55Z dtornabene: yeah, thats exactly what it was 2018-04-09T09:24:58Z jackdaniel: happy to play your rubber duck ,p 2018-04-09T09:24:59Z dtornabene: thanks phoe 2018-04-09T09:25:06Z dtornabene: and jackdaniel 2018-04-09T09:25:09Z phoe: <3 2018-04-09T09:28:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:28:34Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:31:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:32:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:34:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:34:10Z TMA: dtornabene: have you perchance typed some expression ivolving db-null before the use-package? 2018-04-09T09:34:23Z dtornabene: not yet 2018-04-09T09:34:51Z TMA: dtornabene: ah, you found out before that you have poluted your namespace 2018-04-09T09:34:53Z dtornabene: TMA: i figured it out tho, symbol conflicts from a polluted namespace in the repl 2018-04-09T09:34:56Z dtornabene: yep 2018-04-09T09:35:00Z dtornabene: thanks though 2018-04-09T09:39:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:42:35Z kerrhau- quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:44:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T09:45:05Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:54:01Z _Mental quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-09T09:54:24Z makomo: does quicklisp expect that the filename of the ASD file is the same as the name of the system? 2018-04-09T09:54:58Z makomo: i have a file "irg-lab.asd" with two systems, "irg-lab1" and "irg-lab2". trying (ql:quickload :irg-lab1) or (ql:quickload :irg-lab2) fails 2018-04-09T09:55:18Z makomo: however, if i do (ql:quickload :irg-lab) i get an error, but then after then (ql:quickload :irg-lab1) and (ql:quickload :irg-lab2) work 2018-04-09T09:55:40Z makomo: it seems like the loading of :irg-lab (which corresponds to the filename of the asd file) loads the file and reads the systems, and then the following loads work? 2018-04-09T09:55:42Z makomo: what's going on? 2018-04-09T09:55:57Z makomo: is quicklisp weird or am i violationg asdf/quicklisp's conventions 2018-04-09T09:56:14Z beach: ASDF expects the system name and the file name to be the same. 2018-04-09T09:56:42Z makomo: ahh, that finally explains the previous weird behavior i had 2018-04-09T09:56:49Z phoe: except in file foo.asd you may define systems named FOO, FOO/BAR, FOO/BAZ, FOO/QUUX 2018-04-09T09:56:55Z beach: makomo: Otherwise, it would have to read very ASDF file on your computer to determine in which file the right system is located. 2018-04-09T09:57:14Z makomo: beach: yeah pretty much, i thought that was quicklisp's job. i mixed up the roles i guess 2018-04-09T09:57:35Z phoe: quicklisp only resolves and downloads the dependencies. the actual loading is ASDF's job. 2018-04-09T09:57:36Z makomo: i.e. quicklisp has a repo of dirs with asd files and it will go through all of them 2018-04-09T09:57:41Z makomo: mhm 2018-04-09T09:58:07Z phoe: all the .asd files are actually indexed by ASDF. 2018-04-09T09:58:15Z makomo: "through all of them meaning" reading them and seeing if there's a system of that name inside, but now that i think about, that would be weird 2018-04-09T09:58:34Z makomo: phoe: is the convention foo/bar necessary or was that just an example name? 2018-04-09T09:58:41Z makomo: i've also seen names like "foo.bar", "foo.baz", etc. 2018-04-09T09:59:04Z makomo: could you have the main system "foo" and then completely unrelated names such as "hello"? 2018-04-09T09:59:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T09:59:53Z phoe: makomo: system named foo.bar needs to be declared in foo.bar.asd 2018-04-09T09:59:59Z phoe: the slash is required 2018-04-09T10:00:17Z phoe: the slash is required if you want to declare them in a single ASD file* 2018-04-09T10:00:25Z makomo: ahh, wow, never knew that 2018-04-09T10:04:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:04:21Z jackdaniel: because it is fairly new requirement 2018-04-09T10:05:01Z jackdaniel: (it doesn't bleed on the edge, but still :) 2018-04-09T10:08:36Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T10:08:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:14:45Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:16:36Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-09T10:19:12Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:19:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:22:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:24:16Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:24:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:24:52Z Guest62920 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:25:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:27:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:28:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:29:25Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:30:32Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T10:30:47Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:33:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:35:15Z mfiano: phoe: There are open ASDF bugs regarding the slashes in names, so that shouldn't be relied on to work correctly. One was fixed a couple months ago, so about 2 years too soon for SBCL to care. 2018-04-09T10:36:36Z leighzi joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:42:56Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:44:22Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:46:21Z jackdaniel: ASDF codebase is above my personal cognitive horizon, I can never know if some fix won't break some other (unrelated) part 2018-04-09T10:46:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:50:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:50:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:52:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:52:44Z Younder: jackdaniel, Is incorporating Climacs in McClim something any one is working on? I notice the Climacs webpage hasn't been updated for 10 years. 2018-04-09T10:52:44Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-09T10:53:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T10:54:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:55:23Z beach: Younder: Climacs is already incorporated in McCLIM in that the part that is called Drei is used as an input editor. 2018-04-09T10:55:37Z Guest62920 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T10:56:01Z beach: Younder: I am working on a new version of Climacs which much better support for editing Common Lisp code. That's the reason (first) Climacs is not being worked on. 2018-04-09T10:56:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T11:00:30Z jackdaniel: Younder: it could use some work, when I've tried it (installed climacs from quicklisp) it worked fine but had some errors at times (and/or glitches), don't remember exactly 2018-04-09T11:01:09Z jackdaniel: Drei also has its warts. If you plan to ponder these things I'd suggest starting with drafting a post about using Drei 2018-04-09T11:01:43Z jackdaniel: that should give you a nice understanding of how thigns work + you could fix some obvious bugs + community would benefit from it 2018-04-09T11:01:53Z Younder: thx, jackdaniel, beach for the heads up 2018-04-09T11:02:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T11:03:32Z jackdaniel: when I'm done with this ECL iteration (I've just finished McCLIM iteration), I'll make some new bounties for McCLIM - if you have any suggestions please lmk on mail (i.e which bugs are most annoying etc) 2018-04-09T11:04:11Z makomo: HOLY: http://opentrustdtm.com/sbcl-could/solution-sbcl-could-not-stack-allocated.php 2018-04-09T11:04:53Z Xach: makomo: for best results, the system name and the file name must match 2018-04-09T11:05:05Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:07:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T11:09:15Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:11:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:11:42Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T11:17:10Z nika quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T11:20:30Z Nouv joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:20:51Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:22:58Z beach` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:23:14Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T11:26:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T11:29:33Z jackdaniel: makomo: it looks like some malicious site. it tried to spoof windows system installer to bait me clicking 'download windows repair tool' (and I have Linux) 2018-04-09T11:30:20Z makomo: jackdaniel: yeah lol, i posted it as a joke (but maybe i should have given a warning) 2018-04-09T11:30:45Z makomo: since i'm getting a compiler note "couldn't allocate space on stack", i went to google for it 2018-04-09T11:30:49Z makomo: and that's what came up :') 2018-04-09T11:34:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:35:29Z beach` is now known as beach 2018-04-09T11:42:35Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T11:46:45Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T11:48:13Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:55:12Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2018-04-09T11:58:12Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T11:58:57Z leighzi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T12:03:00Z cylb_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:03:51Z Guest61466 is now known as kolb 2018-04-09T12:06:14Z jason_m joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:10:10Z Nouv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T12:13:12Z Doremus joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:13:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:18:52Z Doremus: Hi everyone ! I work on a state of art about interoperability and i would know when (date and Common Lisp version) the first version of CFFI was release on Common Lisp ? 2018-04-09T12:18:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:19:05Z dcluna quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:19:13Z dcluna_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:19:19Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:19:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:21:21Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:24:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:24:57Z Xach: Doremus: cffi is from 2005 2018-04-09T12:25:06Z Xach: Doremus: what do you mean by "common lisp version"? 2018-04-09T12:25:17Z Xach: Common Lisp has one version from 1994 2018-04-09T12:26:37Z random-nick: also, cffi is just a compatibility layer, the real FFI is implemented by the implementation 2018-04-09T12:26:59Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T12:27:02Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:27:14Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:27:22Z Xach: oh, good point. 2018-04-09T12:28:10Z Doremus: Xach: Thanks for the date of CFFI released. For the Common Lisp Version i thought there had been several versions but I was wrong apparently. 2018-04-09T12:29:29Z okflo` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:31:23Z Doremus: random-nick: Yes, but i'm interested mostly by the concept of FFI which has been formulated with the CFFI lib... i supposed 2018-04-09T12:35:13Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T12:35:14Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:35:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:38:32Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-09T12:38:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:40:21Z jackdaniel: cffi lib just spanned a few implementations which have already existed 2018-04-09T12:40:31Z jackdaniel: if they existed then concept was already formulated 2018-04-09T12:40:50Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:42:12Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:42:17Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:42:49Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:43:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:44:50Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:44:52Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:46:04Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:49:03Z Guest62920 left #lisp 2018-04-09T12:49:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:51:09Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:52:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:53:13Z nirved joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:54:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:55:23Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:56:17Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T12:56:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T12:57:04Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:00:50Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:00:58Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:01:02Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:02:13Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:02:18Z Doremus quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-09T13:03:02Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T13:03:20Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:03:34Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:04:34Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:04:34Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-09T13:05:01Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:05:20Z hajovonta1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:07:22Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:08:05Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:08:06Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-09T13:12:25Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:16:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:17:12Z okflo`` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:17:30Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:18:29Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:20:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:20:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:21:22Z okflo` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:23:49Z zbir` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-09T13:24:41Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:25:23Z zbir` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T13:25:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:29:54Z cylb_ is now known as cylb 2018-04-09T13:30:53Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:35:36Z playful-owl quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-09T13:46:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T13:47:51Z phoe: On SBCL, (compile nil (lambda () (2))) ;=> #, NIL, NIL 2018-04-09T13:47:51Z pfdietz quit 2018-04-09T13:48:30Z phoe: Are the non-primary values correct? I don't think they should both be NIL because SBCL correctly found a compile-time error and printed information about it. 2018-04-09T13:48:56Z jackdaniel: phoe: try (compile nil '(lambda () (2))) 2018-04-09T13:49:06Z jackdaniel: your call takes already compiled function 2018-04-09T13:49:37Z phoe: oooh 2018-04-09T13:49:46Z phoe: yes, the compilation happens before the call to 'compile 2018-04-09T13:50:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks! 2018-04-09T13:50:56Z jackdaniel: sure 2018-04-09T13:52:08Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:52:38Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:55:09Z capisce joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:55:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T13:59:28Z otwieracz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T13:59:29Z mrSpec quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-09T13:59:31Z antoszka quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-09T14:02:57Z hajovonta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T14:03:06Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:03:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:05:16Z JenElizabeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T14:05:33Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:07:17Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-09T14:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:14:24Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:17:25Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-09T14:17:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:18:19Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:18:41Z MasouDa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-09T14:19:02Z Winterschlaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T14:19:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:19:22Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:26:12Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:26:17Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T14:26:44Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:27:01Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:29:41Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:30:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T14:31:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:33:42Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:36:27Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T14:38:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:38:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:40:04Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:40:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T14:41:11Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:42:06Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:42:46Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:42:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:42:48Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-09T14:42:50Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:43:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:43:34Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:44:03Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:45:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T14:47:19Z _Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:47:39Z sendai_____ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:47:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:47:46Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:48:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:48:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:48:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:51:59Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:53:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:53:36Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:53:57Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T14:54:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:55:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:55:19Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-09T14:59:08Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T14:59:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:00:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:01:25Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:02:34Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:02:46Z iqubic` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:03:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:06:14Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T15:06:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:08:07Z verisimilitude: So, none of you have been working on anything, I suppose. 2018-04-09T15:08:12Z phoe: verisimilitude: wtf? 2018-04-09T15:08:25Z Josh_2: xD I gotta do my coursework for Uni if that counts 2018-04-09T15:08:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:08:36Z phoe: I am working on a library for describing protocols and test cases 2018-04-09T15:08:53Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:09:35Z froggey joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:10:37Z p_l is swamped with work that barely touches code, let alone Lisp code 2018-04-09T15:10:43Z verisimilitude: I was just asking, based on my asking seven hours ago, phoe; I wasn't trying to offend with that. 2018-04-09T15:11:01Z verisimilitude: Would you want to tell me more, phoe; I'd be interested to read about this. 2018-04-09T15:11:30Z verisimilitude: That period should've been a question mark. 2018-04-09T15:13:31Z phoe: verisimilitude: WIP readme of my project is at https://github.com/phoe/protest 2018-04-09T15:13:57Z phoe: don't read the "Code Generation" part because it's old and refers to old code that is no longer there 2018-04-09T15:14:14Z verisimilitude: That's an interesting choice of name and so logo. 2018-04-09T15:14:21Z phoe: PROtocols and TEST cases, yep 2018-04-09T15:14:43Z phoe: I'm doing a major rewrite of this now, should be ready in a few days. 2018-04-09T15:15:03Z _Mental quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-09T15:15:06Z phoe: Oh right, you could see https://github.com/phoe/protest/tree/stable for a stable previous version 2018-04-09T15:15:26Z phoe: and see the /doc/ directory for examples. 2018-04-09T15:15:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:15:36Z hajovonta: I'm working on a statistical library. I'm learning some basic and intermed statistic concepts, and recently I found that implementing ideas in Lisp is a great way to solidify my knowledge 2018-04-09T15:15:44Z verisimilitude: What manner of style warnings have you been receiving; SBCL can be quite bothersome with some of what it warns. 2018-04-09T15:16:02Z verisimilitude: In that case, I'll only lightly peruse the source, phoe. 2018-04-09T15:16:38Z phoe: verisimilitude: style warnings? What do you mean? 2018-04-09T15:17:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:17:23Z phoe: I get all kinds of style warnings, usually when I screw something up in the code I write. The final code I produce hopefully has no style warnings altogether. 2018-04-09T15:17:56Z verisimilitude: TODO 2018-04-09T15:17:56Z verisimilitude: Take care of STYLE-WARNINGs when defining :FUNCTIONs. 2018-04-09T15:18:31Z verisimilitude: I've found that SBCL complains about perfectly good code, so this seems like something that may be difficult, depending on what you're doing. 2018-04-09T15:18:31Z phoe: oh, that's an old TODO - I think these were about FTYPE clobbering, I need to check if that TODO still remains there. 2018-04-09T15:18:38Z verisimilitude: Alright, then. 2018-04-09T15:19:06Z phoe: It's possible that I have to DEFGENERIC before I DECLAIM FTYPE because if I do it the other way, DEFGENERIC might overwrite the previously stated FTYPE with a new one. 2018-04-09T15:19:11Z verisimilitude: Would it be incorrect to think of ``protocol'' here as being synonymous with ``finite state machine''? 2018-04-09T15:19:38Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T15:19:56Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:20:50Z phoe: A protocol is something that ties together data structures and operations. 2018-04-09T15:21:04Z phoe: It consists of things that can be operated on, and of operations that can be performed. 2018-04-09T15:21:46Z phoe: I don't think this is equivalent to a FSM since an operation may produce a completely new state each time it is invoked, theoretically. 2018-04-09T15:22:23Z verisimilitude: I figured I should've omitted the ``finite''. 2018-04-09T15:22:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:24:10Z verisimilitude: This is interesting, phoe, but since you've told me you'll be uploading a rewrite soon, I'll hold off on getting a good understanding of how this works. 2018-04-09T15:24:39Z phoe: verisimilitude: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf 2018-04-09T15:24:41Z verisimilitude: What is the license? 2018-04-09T15:25:17Z phoe: The license will be LLGPL I think, so it's open for usage in any kind of commercial/noncommercial projects but requires its modified source to be published. 2018-04-09T15:25:18Z verisimilitude: Yes, I was having issues accessing that URL. 2018-04-09T15:25:37Z verisimilitude: Well, now I'm not, so I'll take a look. 2018-04-09T15:26:04Z phoe: Yep. That's a chapter from beach's upcoming book that I'm basing my library upon. 2018-04-09T15:26:10Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:26:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:27:01Z Josh_2: beach is writing a Lisp book? 2018-04-09T15:27:44Z phoe: Josh_2: more than one AFAIK 2018-04-09T15:27:59Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:28:05Z Josh_2: ooooo 2018-04-09T15:28:27Z verisimilitude: Is the title yet solidified? 2018-04-09T15:28:38Z Josh_2: Should call it "Lisp on a beach" 2018-04-09T15:28:50Z Josh_2: Or "beaching Lisp" 2018-04-09T15:28:54Z phoe: beach: ^ 2018-04-09T15:29:02Z phoe: verisimilitude: I don't know yet, maybe the author will be able to respond better. 2018-04-09T15:29:08Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-09T15:29:12Z joh11 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T15:31:22Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:31:28Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:32:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:33:25Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2018-04-09T15:34:16Z Danishman joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:34:51Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:36:08Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:36:48Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2018-04-09T15:37:21Z verisimilitude: I'm supposing, under this model, beach, that SETF forms its own protocol; with a brief glance, this would seem to violate your first restriction, but I suppose it's obvious how it doesn't. 2018-04-09T15:37:40Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:39:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T15:40:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:41:16Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:42:17Z beaky quit (Quit: WeebChat 2.0) 2018-04-09T15:46:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T15:46:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:51:26Z alfix joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:52:17Z rk[ghost] quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-09T15:52:41Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:54:04Z alfix quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T15:54:27Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_workin 2018-04-09T15:55:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:56:25Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-09T15:59:21Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:00:05Z Guest69321 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T16:00:19Z Guest69321 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:01:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:04:04Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:04:22Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2018-04-09T16:04:22Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:07:05Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:10:06Z antoszka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:11:53Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:12:44Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T16:13:04Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:13:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:14:37Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:14:50Z beach: OK, almost finished with the slides for my second (and last) ELS talk. That should give enough time for my favorite coauthor to catch most of the remaining typos and such. 2018-04-09T16:15:45Z gingerale quit (Quit: Don't worry, I'll return) 2018-04-09T16:17:47Z beach: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining-talk.pdf in case someone wants to have a peek. 2018-04-09T16:19:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T16:20:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:20:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:21:25Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T16:21:43Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:22:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:23:28Z lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 2018-04-09T16:24:21Z phoe: verisimilitude: its own protocol? how? 2018-04-09T16:24:34Z phoe: #'FOO is an operation, #'(SETF FOO) is another operation 2018-04-09T16:24:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:25:09Z phoe: the macro SETF in this case is just a tiny wrapper around #'(SETF FOO) that makes sure the arguments are only evaluated once and in proper order; otherwise, everything else is delegated to the function #'(SETF FOO) 2018-04-09T16:25:49Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:27:03Z figurehe4d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T16:27:56Z phoe: beach: I really like the way you do graphs. The "after two steps", "after three steps", "after four steps" approach is really fun when you view them in fullscreen and can just compare them one after another. 2018-04-09T16:28:49Z beach: phoe: Thanks. 2018-04-09T16:29:45Z beach: phoe: I use a very old program, namely Xfig. Then I copy the figure of one step to the figure of the next, and make some small modifications to the copy. 2018-04-09T16:29:53Z beach: That way I am sure they pretty much align. 2018-04-09T16:29:56Z phoe: beach: I see. 2018-04-09T16:30:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:30:32Z beach: Probably not optimal, but it works for me. 2018-04-09T16:30:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:30:49Z phoe: beach: locally optimal, for sure. (: 2018-04-09T16:31:03Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:31:06Z beach: Heh, sure. 2018-04-09T16:32:14Z SaganMan is now known as LookoutBoy 2018-04-09T16:32:44Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:32:54Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:33:21Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:33:29Z nika_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T16:33:50Z verisimilitude: I was combining SETF and the (SETF ...) functions, phoe. 2018-04-09T16:33:50Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:34:05Z phoe: verisimilitude: what exactly do you mean? 2018-04-09T16:34:19Z verisimilitude: I'll explain. 2018-04-09T16:34:27Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:35:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:35:27Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:35:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:35:50Z beaky joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:36:04Z verisimilitude: So, at a casual glance, one may think that the protocol {CONS, CAR, CDR} would violate that first rule with {(SETF CAR), (SETF CDR)}, but I thought it made sense that SETF and functions meant to be called by it could form an independent protocol that merely used some of the same symbols. 2018-04-09T16:36:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:37:05Z verisimilitude: Does {SETF} alone compose one protocol, under this model, instead? 2018-04-09T16:37:22Z phoe: I don't think so 2018-04-09T16:37:44Z phoe: You could, for example, do a protocol that has {CONS, CAR, CDR, RPLACA, RPLACD} I think 2018-04-09T16:37:58Z phoe: Which is equivalent to {CONS, CAR, CDR, (SETF CAR), (SETF CDR)} 2018-04-09T16:38:04Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:38:19Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:38:45Z phoe: In this model, (SETF FOO) is just Yet Another Operation, just with a slightly more funny name. 2018-04-09T16:39:21Z verisimilitude: Wouldn't that mean the protocol {CONS, CAR, CDR} is just as incomplete as {CONS, CDR}, compared to {CONS, CAR, CDR, RPLACA, RPLACD}? 2018-04-09T16:39:35Z phoe: depends on your definition of "incomplete" 2018-04-09T16:39:48Z phoe: a protocol is complete when no data is "loseable" within it 2018-04-09T16:39:52Z verisimilitude: The first two are from the document. 2018-04-09T16:40:03Z verisimilitude: The last one, however, adds fundamental operations the first lacks. 2018-04-09T16:40:16Z phoe: define "fundamental operations" 2018-04-09T16:40:24Z phoe: the first one is functional, the last one is mutative 2018-04-09T16:41:07Z phoe: in some cases, you are forbidden from mutating anything. Like, (defmacro foo (&whole whole) ...) - the WHOLE argument must not be modified. 2018-04-09T16:41:30Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:41:41Z verisimilitude: It's an operation you can't otherwise perform, changing the CAR or CDR of a CONS. 2018-04-09T16:41:43Z phoe: you can traverse that argument by means of the protocol {CAR, CDR}. 2018-04-09T16:42:06Z phoe: Yep. If your protocol states that you must be able to modify parts of a cons cell, then you need operations for that. 2018-04-09T16:42:12Z verisimilitude: It's a fundamental operation of the CONS. 2018-04-09T16:42:18Z phoe: Depends. 2018-04-09T16:42:36Z phoe: Depends on whether you need to be able to mutate cells, or if you do not need it. 2018-04-09T16:42:48Z phoe: If you need mutability, then {CONS, CAR, CDR} will not be enough for you. 2018-04-09T16:43:05Z phoe: If you do not need mutability, then {CONS, CAR, CDR, RPLACA, RPLACD} contains unnecessary operations. 2018-04-09T16:43:45Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T16:43:55Z warweasle_workin is now known as warweasle 2018-04-09T16:44:14Z verisimilitude: It's been in Lisp since the early beginnings, which I'd think solves the design argument of it. 2018-04-09T16:44:47Z phoe: You try to raise an argument here that a cons cell *MUST* be mutable. No, it does not have to be. 2018-04-09T16:45:09Z phoe: It often is, it often is not. The CL standard has many cases in which mutating a cons cell invokes undefined behavior. 2018-04-09T16:45:40Z phoe: So there essentially need to be two protocols for dealing with cons cells - for immutable conses, and for mutable conses. 2018-04-09T16:45:41Z Bike: are you arguing about this pdf that's about the concept of a protocol 2018-04-09T16:45:52Z phoe: Bike: more or less, yep. 2018-04-09T16:46:07Z phoe: For immutable ones there's {CONS, CAR, CDR}, for mutable ones there's {CONS, CAR, CDR, RPLACA, RPLACD}. 2018-04-09T16:47:11Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:47:27Z verisimilitude: Wouldn't that then violate the first rule of these protocols, phoe? 2018-04-09T16:50:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T16:52:08Z xaotuk quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-09T16:55:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:00:39Z cage_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-09T17:01:06Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:01:17Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:03:44Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:05:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:06:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:07:55Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:08:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T17:08:49Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:08:51Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T17:10:31Z pfdietz: Another aspect: do CONS have object identity? Yes if mutable, but what about immutable? EQ vs. EQUAL. 2018-04-09T17:10:42Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:11:13Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:12:42Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:13:28Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:13:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:14:47Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:16:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:17:37Z verisimilitude: Since EQ, EQUAL, et al. work with T, it would seem they fit in their own protocol rather well, under this model. 2018-04-09T17:18:28Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:19:35Z verisimilitude: What do you think of all of this, beach? 2018-04-09T17:20:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:20:21Z LookoutBoy is now known as e^i 2018-04-09T17:21:51Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:25:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:30:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:31:53Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:35:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:38:55Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:39:15Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T17:40:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:42:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:46:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:48:27Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:50:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T17:51:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:51:32Z anon joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:51:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:51:55Z anon is now known as Guest86264 2018-04-09T17:52:13Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T17:54:21Z Guest69321 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:55:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T17:56:02Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T17:56:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-09T17:59:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:01:02Z phoe: Hmmmm 2018-04-09T18:01:11Z Josh_2: mmmmH 2018-04-09T18:01:27Z phoe: As for the first rule of the protocols... Hm. 2018-04-09T18:02:50Z phoe: That would indeed be a case. 2018-04-09T18:03:21Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:03:32Z phoe: beach: since operations CONS, CAR, CDR are mentioned in the protocol called "ANSI Common Lisp standard", are we able to construct any other protocol that contains these operations? 2018-04-09T18:04:02Z phoe: Namely, are you able to construct the protocol ω = {CONS, CAR, CDR} mentioned in 5.4? 2018-04-09T18:06:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:07:05Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T18:07:46Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:07:59Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:10:40Z jackdaniel: given cool topics you talk about probably nobody will be interested in me working on testing framework? (not unit test framework but rather CLIM application to manage test plans - similar to teslink in spirit) 2018-04-09T18:11:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:11:12Z jackdaniel just read the backlog 2018-04-09T18:11:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:14:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:15:15Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:16:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:19:50Z beach: phoe: "ANSI Common Lisp standard" is not a single protocol according to my definition. 2018-04-09T18:21:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:22:34Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:22:34Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T18:23:16Z makomo: what exactly can you do with a vector that's adjustable but doesn't have a fill pointer? 2018-04-09T18:23:17Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:23:26Z makomo: how exactly do you adjust it? 2018-04-09T18:23:31Z _death: clhs adjust-array 2018-04-09T18:23:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 2018-04-09T18:24:08Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:24:54Z beach: makomo: You can make it bigger or smaller. Say you implement a stack with an adjustable vector, then you can grow the vector when it is full and shrink it when it is not full enough. 2018-04-09T18:24:55Z verisimilitude: There's a certain pleasure in building reusable software, but one can't always do this; there comes a point when things are simply better very tightly integrated. 2018-04-09T18:25:01Z verisimilitude: What do you think? 2018-04-09T18:25:28Z makomo: _death: beach: i see. adjust-array was what i needed to get me going, thanks 2018-04-09T18:25:40Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:25:46Z verisimilitude: If you don't tightly integrate it, you tend to find yourself building ostensibly reusable software that will only ever be passed the same arguments, achieving the same thing in a roundabout manner. 2018-04-09T18:26:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:29:11Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T18:29:49Z jackdaniel: approach good as any other. if it matches problem domain well (i.e I don't feel urge to extend kettle controller) 2018-04-09T18:30:00Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:30:25Z jackdaniel: then it is fine. adding extensibility for a sake of being able to extend software doesn't make much sense to me. 2018-04-09T18:31:09Z verisimilitude: In the specific case I have in mind, with relation to what I've been programming, it's an end software; I actually found myself rewriting it once, because it wasn't tightly integrated enough. 2018-04-09T18:31:53Z jackdaniel: I like how PG put it in one of his essays: you grow language towards your application 2018-04-09T18:32:31Z jackdaniel: and then you write a simple interface for your newly written language (which probably matches what you call "end software") 2018-04-09T18:32:46Z jackdaniel: s/for your/of your/ 2018-04-09T18:32:58Z jackdaniel: s/interface/client/ 2018-04-09T18:36:57Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:38:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:39:06Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-09T18:39:48Z ckonstanski quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:41:59Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:42:44Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:43:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:44:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:48:24Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:48:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:52:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T18:52:42Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T18:53:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T18:59:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:00:12Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-09T19:00:28Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:01:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:02:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:03:57Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:04:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:04:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:08:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T19:08:20Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T19:12:08Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:12:40Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:15:36Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:15:58Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:16:59Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:17:33Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T19:19:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:21:16Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T19:21:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:22:55Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:23:51Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:24:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:24:06Z shwouchk_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-09T19:26:56Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:27:15Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:30:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:31:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:34:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:36:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:37:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:40:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:41:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:42:54Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:43:12Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:43:21Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T19:43:48Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:44:27Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T19:44:42Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:45:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:45:32Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:45:44Z okflo`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T19:45:54Z dxtr_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:46:09Z flip214 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:46:09Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-09T19:46:09Z flip214 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:47:45Z Kundry_W_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:48:06Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:49:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:54:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T19:55:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T19:56:24Z jstypo quit (Quit: I think, therefore I drink) 2018-04-09T19:58:14Z aeth: Imo, start concrete and then abstract from there or you'll write abstractions that you'll never need (not even once!). 2018-04-09T19:59:25Z aeth: Refactor continuously and eventually you'll get the right level of abstraction 2018-04-09T19:59:40Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-09T20:00:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:00:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:02:49Z aeth: I think it's extremely easy in CL to write code that's too clever or too abstract. Nothing's worse than M-.ing through someone's extremely clever, hundreds-of-lines, undocumented macro. 2018-04-09T20:03:11Z TMA: on the other hand sometimes a more general version of a problem is easier to solve -- but that still needs a concrete problem to begin with 2018-04-09T20:04:59Z Bike: what is bringing this on or is it an example of itself 2018-04-09T20:05:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:07:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:08:54Z TMA: in my case it is a setter that is in fact a toggler; it is something like (defun set-x (object &optional (new-val (not (get-x object)))) (unless (eq (get-x object) new-val) ...)) 2018-04-09T20:10:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:11:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:14:13Z TMA: a general setter would just do the setting, bolting the toggling over that is simple and more to the point than to try do 2-in-1 2018-04-09T20:15:32Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:16:26Z aeth: Speaking of toggling, what's the best way to toggle between 1 and 0 (for APIs that expect 1 or 0 instead of true and false)? This? (mod (1+ foo) 2) 2018-04-09T20:18:59Z _death: (logxor x 1) 2018-04-09T20:19:22Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T20:20:00Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:20:04Z aeth: Oooh, they have different disassemblies in SBCL 2018-04-09T20:20:38Z aeth: (mod (1+ foo) 2) does the usual (mod some-integer some-power-of-2) trick and logxor obviously uses XOR 2018-04-09T20:21:25Z Xach: lisp is a portable assembler 2018-04-09T20:21:55Z aeth: The xor is the faster toggle-bit, especially when the number to toggle is 1 instead of 0. This is not surprising. 2018-04-09T20:22:38Z aeth: And when optimizing speed 3... it uses one fewer instruction 2018-04-09T20:22:43Z verisimilitude: Why would you not use LOGNOT? 2018-04-09T20:23:03Z verisimilitude: Ah, that's why. 2018-04-09T20:23:13Z verisimilitude: Oh well. 2018-04-09T20:23:31Z aeth: verisimilitude: I think xor is one of the fastest asm instructions for Intel? I could be wrong. 2018-04-09T20:24:21Z verisimilitude: I wouldn't know. 2018-04-09T20:24:25Z aeth: verisimilitude: and as for lognot: (let ((x 0)) (lognot x)) => -1 2018-04-09T20:24:32Z verisimilitude: Yes, that's why. 2018-04-09T20:26:15Z aeth: Xach: Imo, Lisp is much more suitable for low level performance hacks using logical operators. In C, you get unreadable code. In CL, just make it a function declared inline. I guess in C, you could do the same thing and the optimizer would automatically inline it, but it's not idiomatic C. 2018-04-09T20:26:37Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:26:54Z aeth: (Of course, in C, I guess you'd just use ! so in this case it doesn't matter.) 2018-04-09T20:27:11Z random-nick: in C, you can also make a preprocessor macro :^) 2018-04-09T20:27:19Z Bike: i kind of doubt you need to worry about which alu operator is faster... 2018-04-09T20:27:28Z aeth: random-nick: yeah, but that's a holdover from the days when compilers were dumb. The function should be inlined by a smart enough C compiler. 2018-04-09T20:27:40Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T20:27:44Z verisimilitude: I've read some benchmarks, aeth, that I believe show you can get good performance if you're exclusively XORing registers, but that's hardly useful or a realistic program. 2018-04-09T20:27:51Z nmajo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T20:28:22Z aeth: random-nick: you're right, though, that if someone did any abstraction at all they'd use a preprocessor macro for it, though 2018-04-09T20:29:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:30:38Z verisimilitude: On that topic, I do find it queer in a way for processors to offer certain logical operations, such as, say, shifting. 2018-04-09T20:31:01Z verisimilitude: It would be better to simply have a multiply and divide that are optimized if the number is a power of two, as an example. 2018-04-09T20:31:30Z aeth: verisimilitude: Whenever there's something that doesn't seem right it's probably because of backwards compatibility forever. 2018-04-09T20:31:55Z verisimilitude: I simply meant in a fresh design. 2018-04-09T20:32:33Z aeth: Making it easier to port existing compilers, then? 2018-04-09T20:32:59Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:33:34Z verisimilitude: What? 2018-04-09T20:34:17Z verisimilitude: Also, this isn't too bad, considering what SBCL produces: 2018-04-09T20:34:17Z verisimilitude: (lambda (n) 2018-04-09T20:34:17Z verisimilitude: (declare (unsigned-byte n)) 2018-04-09T20:34:17Z verisimilitude: (if (zerop (the unsigned-byte n)) 1 0)) 2018-04-09T20:34:43Z verisimilitude: This is clearly resembling the optimal if you need a relation the LOG functions don't provide. 2018-04-09T20:35:19Z phoe: verisimilitude: you don't need THE if you have DECLARE 2018-04-09T20:35:33Z aeth: verisimilitude: not quite the same thing, though, I was talking about something defined as a bit 2018-04-09T20:35:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:35:48Z aeth: more assumptions can be made 2018-04-09T20:36:27Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:36:33Z verisimilitude: I know, phoe. 2018-04-09T20:36:57Z verisimilitude: Formatting wise, I suppose removing the DECLARE would be better, since it would then fit on just one line. 2018-04-09T20:36:57Z gingerale joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:37:10Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-09T20:37:16Z aeth: verisimilitude: Although perhaps it's better to not assume that it's a bit, if it's an inline function that's used in general. 2018-04-09T20:37:33Z aeth: If it's a public function somewhere someone along the line is going to pass in 2 or something 2018-04-09T20:37:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:38:19Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:38:55Z gingerale quit (Quit: Don't worry, I'll return) 2018-04-09T20:39:19Z verisimilitude: Anyway, what are you working on lately, aeth? 2018-04-09T20:39:45Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-09T20:41:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:42:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:42:26Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:42:33Z gingerale- quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T20:43:04Z aeth: A game engine. 2018-04-09T20:43:11Z gingerale joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:43:29Z verisimilitude: Is the current state of the source publicly available anywhere? 2018-04-09T20:43:37Z verisimilitude: Is this similar to Xelf? 2018-04-09T20:44:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:44:31Z aeth: It's afaik extremely different than the existing engines out there. 2018-04-09T20:44:41Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor 2018-04-09T20:45:50Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:46:01Z aeth: Its focus is high-performance 3D, and it does not have any detectable runtime allocations in the engine itself. It's obviously very incomplete. 2018-04-09T20:46:47Z anon joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:47:07Z aeth: Because it's a large project, the source is full of things that I thought were good ideas years ago that aren't. So there's rarely any forward progress. 2018-04-09T20:47:11Z anon is now known as Guest6423 2018-04-09T20:48:18Z Guest86264 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:48:25Z verisimilitude: Have you considered a rewrite, then? 2018-04-09T20:48:49Z aeth: I'll never rewrite it again. It's the third or so rewrite. 2018-04-09T20:48:52Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:49:08Z aeth: It's modular enough that I can rewrite small parts of it as needed without needing large changes. 2018-04-09T20:49:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T20:49:31Z verisimilitude: I take it that probably wasn't the case with the first iteration. 2018-04-09T20:51:06Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:53:10Z Guest6423 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:54:39Z aeth: I probably could have made that work, but the architecture was all wrong. 2018-04-09T20:58:23Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-09T20:58:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T20:59:31Z aeth: What I currently have is, for the most part, pretty low level. Although I have one of those very elaborate, undocumented macros that I was criticising earlier to cover up a lot of that. 2018-04-09T21:00:24Z ddrbt quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T21:00:50Z aeth: It's definitely not a style you'd want to use for CL outside of real time programming. 2018-04-09T21:00:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:01:25Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:02:12Z verisimilitude: Is it in a state you believe others would be able to use it? 2018-04-09T21:03:27Z aeth: Absolutely not. My approach is heavily integrated, which means that I have to have rough, buggy, entirely incomplete implementations for many systems that have to be there in order to have something running, even though they're nowhere near suitable, e.g. the physics. The stuff that I can skip entirely (e.g. sound) are things that I do not have at all, currently. 2018-04-09T21:04:17Z aeth: Interestingly, even though it's a 3D engine, it's probably most usable for 2D, because you can abuse the 2D HUD and 2D doesn't really need to be that efficient, anyway. 2018-04-09T21:04:28Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:04:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:05:36Z verisimilitude: It's my understanding that modern hardware can more efficiently manipulate flat 3D than 2D, anyway. 2018-04-09T21:05:44Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T21:05:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:06:00Z Guest6423 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:06:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:06:55Z aeth: Well, the 2D hud is just an orthographic projection overlayed in front of the 3D world iirc. 2018-04-09T21:07:20Z aeth: So just texture a bunch of squares and you have something. 2018-04-09T21:09:26Z aeth: 3D would need animation, lighting, collision, physics, etc. Although you can cut out collision and (most) physics if you do a game where you control units indirectly via pathfinding afaik, like an RTS. 2018-04-09T21:09:28Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-09T21:10:24Z verisimilitude: I've always found issues when using Common Lisp programs that use the CFFI or whatnot. 2018-04-09T21:10:36Z aeth: It depends on the wrapper. 2018-04-09T21:10:53Z verisimilitude: I've not been able to experiment with qtools, as an example, since it wants an openssl shared library, for whatever reason. 2018-04-09T21:10:55Z aeth: I have no issues whatsoever with cl-opengl, which directly uses cffi. I have had nothing but issues with cl-sdl2, which uses autowrap. 2018-04-09T21:11:05Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T21:11:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:11:29Z verisimilitude: Installing both of openssl and libressl did nothing to correct this, of course, and so I lost interest once again. 2018-04-09T21:11:34Z rumbler31: verisimilitude: guess, that qtools will download a qt installation if necessary 2018-04-09T21:12:10Z Shinmera: It wants OpenSSL to download Qt securely 2018-04-09T21:12:39Z pmc_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:12:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:13:42Z Shinmera: Either way, if it doesn't work that's on CL+SSL, not Qtools. 2018-04-09T21:14:38Z pmc_: in ANSI Common Lisp by Graham, the following line is given: (set-macro-character #\} (get-macro-character #\))) How does Graham know that the function associated with right parenthesis is the function he wants associated with } right curly bracket? What does that function do? 2018-04-09T21:14:53Z Shinmera: It signals an error. 2018-04-09T21:15:19Z Shinmera: This works because the opening paren reads a full expression, including the closing paren. 2018-04-09T21:15:43Z Shinmera: Which in turn means the macro character for the closing paren only gets invoked if its found astray without a matching open paren 2018-04-09T21:15:48Z Shinmera: Hence, being an error. 2018-04-09T21:16:04Z pmc_: interesting, thanks. 2018-04-09T21:17:00Z verisimilitude: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_db.htm 2018-04-09T21:17:19Z verisimilitude: There's a copy of the document, if you'd want more detail, pmc_. 2018-04-09T21:17:29Z pmc_: cool, thanks! 2018-04-09T21:18:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:18:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:19:03Z verisimilitude: It's interesting to have a discussion with you, Shinmera; I've seen your work around, but never discussed anything with you before. 2018-04-09T21:19:18Z verisimilitude: Did you have issues having your programs added to Quicklisp? 2018-04-09T21:19:49Z Shinmera: No. 2018-04-09T21:19:56Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:20:11Z verisimilitude: That's interesting. 2018-04-09T21:20:17Z Shinmera: Why? 2018-04-09T21:20:26Z verisimilitude: I've been having issues with this for months, since December. 2018-04-09T21:23:05Z verisimilitude: I've corrected issues as they've been told to me, such as having the programs available as a single file that decompresses into its own directory, but I've still yet to have them added. 2018-04-09T21:23:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:23:58Z verisimilitude: Apparently, I'm the first person to attempt to have his programs uploaded to Quicklisp pseudonymously, which Xach wanted time to mull over. 2018-04-09T21:24:37Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:24:37Z verisimilitude: I'd use email, but gmail blocks independent servers unless they jump through hoops; I won't use github; and that leaves me with #quicklisp, which is very inactive. 2018-04-09T21:24:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:24:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:25:11Z Josh_2: What about gitlab? 2018-04-09T21:26:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:26:57Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:27:12Z Bike: xach organizes the project list on github 2018-04-09T21:27:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:27:46Z pierpa_: aeth: (- 1 x) 2018-04-09T21:28:22Z aeth: pierpa_: that is clever 2018-04-09T21:29:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:29:59Z verisimilitude: I wasn't aware it was on gitlab, Josh_2, but I'd really prefer to not make an account at all. 2018-04-09T21:30:03Z zmt00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T21:30:27Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:30:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:30:58Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:32:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:32:37Z Danishman quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.9.3 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-09T21:33:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:34:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:35:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:35:32Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-09T21:35:46Z pierpa_: aeth: no, is as little clever as possible! :) 2018-04-09T21:36:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:36:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:39:47Z pierpa_: (and note that the same trick can be used for alternating between any two values, not only 0 and 1) 2018-04-09T21:40:39Z Josh_2: I gotta write a program that uses gpu/cpu parallelisation but am not sure what to do, I've got to have atleast 3 threads and two different thread functions 2018-04-09T21:40:54Z verisimilitude: What will this program do? 2018-04-09T21:41:09Z Josh_2: and have shared resources using mutexes atomic operations or barriers and some signalling as well 2018-04-09T21:41:09Z Josh_2: idk 2018-04-09T21:41:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:41:33Z verisimilitude: That's not a good sign. 2018-04-09T21:41:36Z Josh_2: I have no idea what to do that's why I'm asking 2018-04-09T21:41:54Z Josh_2: it's gpu or cpu, or both 2018-04-09T21:41:59Z phoe: you have to write a program that uses threads and mutexes for the sole purpose of using threads and mutexes? 2018-04-09T21:42:12Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:42:12Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-09T21:42:12Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:42:17Z Josh_2: uhmm well I gotta write a program that uses them 2018-04-09T21:42:30Z phoe: why? 2018-04-09T21:42:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:42:53Z verisimilitude: So, this is for some class? 2018-04-09T21:42:59Z Josh_2: Yeh it's for class 2018-04-09T21:43:13Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T21:43:21Z Josh_2: as a note I did my last semesters work in CL and I got a 4.5 :P 2018-04-09T21:43:35Z verisimilitude: That's nice. 2018-04-09T21:43:48Z _death: you can implement a classic problem like dining philosophers.. 2018-04-09T21:43:48Z verisimilitude: Why don't you write a CS class simulator? 2018-04-09T21:43:55Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:44:03Z verisimilitude: You can have one thread bother another thread, while another thread does all of the actual work, separately. 2018-04-09T21:44:11Z phoe: _death: I thought of that but it won't be trivial with 2+ thread functions 2018-04-09T21:44:26Z Josh_2: Dining philosophers was part of one of the lectures 2018-04-09T21:44:28Z phoe: since each philosopher is an instance of the same function 2018-04-09T21:44:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-09T21:45:19Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-09T21:45:58Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:46:21Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:46:23Z aeth: Are there any restrictions? There are some mathematical things where threads help a ton, e.g. certain Project Euler problems. 2018-04-09T21:46:24Z verisimilitude: Perhaps you'd, instead, find more utility building a parallel WWW scraper, Josh_2; I've done this before, for my own purposes, and it's very simple. 2018-04-09T21:46:48Z Josh_2: There are no restrictions on what I can make, only time 2018-04-09T21:46:53Z Josh_2: I have until the end of this month 2018-04-09T21:46:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:47:02Z aeth: I'd personally do something mathematical, then. 2018-04-09T21:47:16Z _death: phoe: the solution may involve an instance of another kind.. and the gist is that there are well known problems to choose from 2018-04-09T21:47:41Z verisimilitude: I simply generate what is to be scraped ahead and time, randomize it, and then give each thread a piece of this to process. 2018-04-09T21:48:06Z Josh_2: That sounds like a good idea, but why would they need to communicate 2018-04-09T21:48:07Z verisimilitude: You could, instead, use a lock on a procedure that generates the next piece to use, if you want to use a lock. 2018-04-09T21:48:19Z verisimilitude: Who are you asking? 2018-04-09T21:48:20Z Josh_2: Well I have to have shared resources 2018-04-09T21:48:40Z verisimilitude: Well, the second approach would work for that, then. 2018-04-09T21:48:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:49:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:49:53Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-09T21:50:10Z pierpa_ is now known as pierpa 2018-04-09T21:50:25Z verisimilitude: So, you think you'll do this, Josh_2? 2018-04-09T21:51:07Z Josh_2: Yes it sounds like an interesting project 2018-04-09T21:51:21Z Josh_2: and I can think of lots of places where parallelisation can be used 2018-04-09T21:52:36Z Josh_2: can use threads to pull sites simultaneously and threads to analyse the downloaded site 2018-04-09T21:53:20Z pierpa: this would be 'embarassingly parallel' with no shared resource 2018-04-09T21:53:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:54:00Z Josh_2: well the site downloaded could be the shared resource and then the threads could access as needed 2018-04-09T21:54:08Z verisimilitude: Use DRAKMA's HTTP-REQUEST for the downloading; I've not dug into its internals much, but you shouldn't have issues. 2018-04-09T21:54:09Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-09T21:54:24Z verisimilitude: I'm glad to have helped, then, Josh_2. 2018-04-09T21:54:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:55:16Z _death: another classic problem is that of producers and consumers.. the shared resource would be the buffer used for holding messages 2018-04-09T21:55:21Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-09T21:55:56Z Josh_2: or in this case I could build the downloaded site into a buffer and then use threads to access the other end? 2018-04-09T21:56:27Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:56:39Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T21:56:44Z _death: sure, and then, when you're in a world full of pain, you'll come to appreciate the former ;) 2018-04-09T21:56:57Z Josh_2: hmm xD 2018-04-09T21:58:07Z Josh_2: the page could be the shared resource and I could have a different thread for extracting different bits of data 2018-04-09T21:59:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:59:42Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-09T21:59:46Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2018-04-09T22:00:12Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:00:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:01:16Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:01:47Z kark quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:01:48Z verisimilitude: He's already doing this for a class, _death. 2018-04-09T22:02:56Z thelounge49 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:03:05Z _death: yes, in the real world people rarely begin with "I need to write a program that uses mutexes" 2018-04-09T22:03:09Z thelounge49 left #lisp 2018-04-09T22:03:12Z Josh_2: yh 2018-04-09T22:04:25Z _death: although "I wanna play with this library" is common for some ;) 2018-04-09T22:04:42Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-09T22:04:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:05:00Z pmc_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-09T22:06:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:07:02Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:11:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:11:18Z Josh_2: verisimilitude: How would I utilize signalling between threads? 2018-04-09T22:11:25Z Josh_2: Something else I gotta do 2018-04-09T22:11:28Z em quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T22:11:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:12:22Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T22:12:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:13:26Z rpg: I would like to take some centralized code, and change it so that what it does now by function call will be done by invoking a (lisp) sub-process that will compute an answer and exit. Anyone doing this and, if so, how do you move data from the master into the sub-process? The arguments are too complicated to pass on the command line, but making a new file every time I invoke, in order to push data into the other process seems a little yucky. 2018-04-09T22:13:48Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:14:03Z Josh_2: rpg: a tcp stream? 2018-04-09T22:14:42Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:14:54Z rpg: Josh_2: I could probably just write to the other lisp's standard input and read its standard out.... 2018-04-09T22:15:00Z verisimilitude: You could have an overarching interface thread, Josh_2. 2018-04-09T22:15:03Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:15:10Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:15:20Z verisimilitude: You're not thinking big enough, rpg; what you need is to define a JSON interface. 2018-04-09T22:15:27Z aeth: Depending on how you launch the subprocess (i.e. do you do it from Lisp?), you could communicate with the I/O streams used with uiop:launch-program 2018-04-09T22:15:42Z aeth: which is probably very similar to what you're talking about with stdin and stdout 2018-04-09T22:15:47Z rpg: aeth: Yes, I'm going to do it from lisp, since I already have the outer loop written in lisp... 2018-04-09T22:16:00Z rpg: aeth: Yes, I think it would be effectively the same thing. 2018-04-09T22:16:36Z rpg: I have the sneaking suspicion that I should do this first with a temp file for the command, since it will be easier to debug. 2018-04-09T22:16:41Z surrounder left #lisp 2018-04-09T22:16:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:17:15Z Josh_2: verisimilitude: what do you mean by an overarching interface? 2018-04-09T22:17:19Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-09T22:17:33Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:17:50Z m_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:18:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:18:53Z verisimilitude: So, have one thread that provides an interface that necessitates signaling other threads. 2018-04-09T22:19:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:19:33Z Josh_2: hmmm 2018-04-09T22:19:40Z Josh_2: Not really sure what you mean 2018-04-09T22:22:02Z verisimilitude: I'll give an example then. 2018-04-09T22:22:41Z verisimilitude: Since you're forced to use signals, why not allow, say, a signal to report download status or whatnot; you could then have a thread that shows this information, periodically signaling. 2018-04-09T22:22:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:23:04Z Josh_2: O 2018-04-09T22:23:04Z verisimilitude: Which class is this? 2018-04-09T22:23:19Z Josh_2: It's called "Data structures and Algorithms" 2018-04-09T22:23:20Z verisimilitude: You're basically being told to do something, with no direction, but it must conform to certain arbitrary requirements. 2018-04-09T22:24:11Z Josh_2: Pretty much, there's a few example things I could do but meh. Most people will be doing some game related AI stuff because most people are doing game dev 2018-04-09T22:24:18Z Josh_2: (most people will be use C++ the peasants) 2018-04-09T22:24:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:26:42Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-09T22:26:57Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T22:27:22Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:27:29Z eminhi joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:27:33Z aoeu joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:27:44Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:27:50Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:28:24Z eminhi quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-09T22:28:29Z verisimilitude: Anyone who starts out thinking ``How can I use threads and mutexes?'' is either experienced with it or an idiot; you seem to be neither, yet this is how you're being taught. 2018-04-09T22:28:48Z verisimilitude: One of the better lessons you'll learn from a university, Josh_2, is how abominable the education system is. 2018-04-09T22:29:00Z Josh_2: xD You don't have to tell me that 2018-04-09T22:29:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:29:28Z Josh_2: I have used threads before but never mutexes etc but it is only the assessment, there has been lots of practice exercises through the semester 2018-04-09T22:29:59Z verisimilitude: Even then, a lack of shared state is the hip new thing and I'd be inclined to do things that way if I could help it. 2018-04-09T22:30:08Z adjustingmaitai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-09T22:30:18Z Josh_2: huh? 2018-04-09T22:30:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:30:55Z Josh_2: secretly taking back that "either" xD 2018-04-09T22:30:57Z verisimilitude: So, the cool new parallel programming method works in terms of messages on nodes, rather than shared state with locks and all of that. 2018-04-09T22:31:51Z Josh_2: ahh alright 2018-04-09T22:32:19Z verisimilitude: This is what Erlang does and is also realized in hardware such as Green Array's GA144 chip. 2018-04-09T22:32:41Z verisimilitude: That machine has 144 tiny Forth machines connected to their neighbours. 2018-04-09T22:33:29Z _Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:34:10Z pierpa: Make a railroad simulator. With a graphical interface for extra credit :) 2018-04-09T22:34:11Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-09T22:34:20Z Josh_2: Okay so I gotta make some functions to download a webpage, and to extract hyperlinks from that webpage 2018-04-09T22:34:43Z Josh_2: I will then deal with the threading 2018-04-09T22:34:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:36:10Z Josh_2: First am gonna eat me some blueberry yogurt (very Lisp related) 2018-04-09T22:36:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:39:10Z bjorkintosh: ah. flavors. 2018-04-09T22:40:13Z aeth: I thought CLOS obsoleted Flavors and CommonLOOPS? 2018-04-09T22:40:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:41:28Z edgar-rft: I think blueberry yogurt is the new CLOS 2018-04-09T22:41:58Z Josh_2: To be fair, I would do my work but I keep watching machining/welding videos on Youtube 2018-04-09T22:42:12Z Xach: Josh_2: that is a common affliction 2018-04-09T22:42:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:44:08Z Josh_2: Watching machining/welding videos? 2018-04-09T22:44:57Z Xach: it is a constant distraction for me 2018-04-09T22:45:16Z Josh_2: Same 2018-04-09T22:45:28Z Xach must go out and drawfile his lathe banjo, adios 2018-04-09T22:47:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:47:26Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:47:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:48:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:49:29Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:50:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:50:40Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:50:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:53:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-09T22:53:12Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-09T22:53:27Z _Mental quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I ran a ray-tracer program on both compilers and what ran 4.5 minutes on CLISP only took 18 seconds! in SBCL. 2018-04-10T01:40:48Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:41:00Z iqubic left #lisp 2018-04-10T01:41:27Z atheris joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:41:36Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:41:43Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:42:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:43:04Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:43:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:46:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:47:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:48:12Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-10T01:48:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:48:49Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:49:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:50:55Z pierpa: no news here 2018-04-10T01:50:59Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:51:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:52:00Z iqubic: Is that good? 2018-04-10T01:52:16Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-10T01:52:46Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:52:57Z pierpa: that's only 15 times faster. Not much. Have you used any type declarations? 2018-04-10T01:53:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:53:19Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:54:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T01:55:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:58:00Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T01:59:05Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T01:59:07Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T02:00:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:01:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:01:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:01:33Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-10T02:05:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:06:27Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:07:30Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:08:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:08:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:08:28Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-10T02:09:03Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:11:39Z dxtr joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:13:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:13:33Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:13:34Z dxtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:13:40Z flip214 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:13:40Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-10T02:13:40Z flip214 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:14:22Z pmc_: pierpa: no, I just ran the code as is. The code doesn't use declaim or declare either. Maybe there is room for improvement. 2018-04-10T02:15:55Z pierpa: ok. then is expected 2018-04-10T02:16:17Z pierpa: Clisp ignores type declarations, while SBCL makes good use of them 2018-04-10T02:16:29Z pierpa: a factor of 100 would be more typical 2018-04-10T02:16:44Z pmc_: interesting... 2018-04-10T02:16:52Z pierpa: in numerical code like a ray tracer, that is. 2018-04-10T02:18:03Z pmc_: I didn't know CLISP ignores type declarations. Earlier I was only using clisp and could not figure out why the code didn't run faster when using floats. :) 2018-04-10T02:18:25Z pierpa: Clisp is always in "safe mode" 2018-04-10T02:18:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:19:36Z pierpa: it also ignores any optimization advice 2018-04-10T02:19:46Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:20:14Z pierpa: to make it short, it ignores all declarations with the exception of SPECIALs 2018-04-10T02:20:53Z pmc_: wow 2018-04-10T02:21:33Z pierpa: otoh, it's a very simple compiler, and this has some advantages too 2018-04-10T02:21:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:21:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:22:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:23:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:24:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:25:47Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:26:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:26:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:27:01Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:27:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:28:17Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:28:18Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-10T02:28:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:29:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:29:25Z pmc_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T02:30:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:30:17Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:32:25Z broccolistem quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1-dev) 2018-04-10T02:32:35Z pfdietz: I was still able to turn up some interesting bugs in it, back in the day. 2018-04-10T02:33:21Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:33:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:33:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:33:44Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:35:31Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:36:42Z pierpa: aha! 2018-04-10T02:37:25Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:37:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:39:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:39:49Z pfdietz: This was my favorite: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/200/ 2018-04-10T02:40:34Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T02:41:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:42:15Z pierpa: ouch 2018-04-10T02:42:25Z Bike: boy, that's some weird code 2018-04-10T02:42:29Z Bike: no wonder you find bugs with that thing 2018-04-10T02:43:39Z loke: pfdietz: May I ask how you came up with that obscure test case? 2018-04-10T02:43:39Z Bike: not even that big a file 2018-04-10T02:43:47Z pfdietz: The random tester. 2018-04-10T02:44:00Z aoeu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:44:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:44:10Z pfdietz: Generates random well-formed Common Lisp, compiles with different optimization settings, executes and compares. 2018-04-10T02:44:21Z loke: What is a random ttester? It just generates random code? 2018-04-10T02:44:26Z pfdietz: Yep. 2018-04-10T02:44:41Z Bike: not often you see (&optional (foo (progv ...))), after all 2018-04-10T02:44:51Z pfdietz: When a bug is found it automatically prunes down to a minimal failing test case. 2018-04-10T02:45:06Z loke: SOunds pretty neat. Who wrote it? 2018-04-10T02:45:10Z pfdietz: I did. 2018-04-10T02:45:16Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-10T02:45:37Z loke: Nice. Have you found bugs in other compilers too? 2018-04-10T02:46:10Z pfdietz: I've applied it to all the Common Lisp implementations I could get my hands on, and found bugs in every one of them. 2018-04-10T02:46:23Z phadthai: unless that recently changed, clisp's compiler was a tokenizer, with the runtime fully interpreted; SBCL by default compiles to native code 2018-04-10T02:47:14Z pfdietz: Clisp does some optimizations. These were the bugs I found: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/search/?q=pfdietz 2018-04-10T02:47:18Z loke: pfdietz: WHat bigs did you find in SBCL, ABCL and ECL? (those are the implementations I use) 2018-04-10T02:48:10Z pfdietz: I don't have a full list of the SBCL bugs, but you can look up the recent ones on the bug tracker site. https://launchpad.net/sbcl 2018-04-10T02:48:33Z pierpa: phadthai: that's absolutely not the case 2018-04-10T02:48:45Z loke: pfdietz: Recent? Since the bug report for CLISp was in 2004, I assumed that this is something you did long ago. 2018-04-10T02:48:47Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:49:02Z phadthai: pierpa: that's good to know 2018-04-10T02:49:04Z pierpa: clisp has always been a compiler, from the start 2018-04-10T02:49:05Z pfdietz: Recent for SBCL, not recent for Clisp. 2018-04-10T02:49:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:49:47Z loke: I searched the bug database for dietxz, but noh its. What username do you have? 2018-04-10T02:49:59Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:49:59Z pfdietz: Eric Marsden was running the random tester on SBCL a couple of years ago; I recently spruced it up a bit and started running it again (and another approach). 2018-04-10T02:50:05Z pfdietz: paul-f-dietz 2018-04-10T02:50:30Z loke: Gotcha 2018-04-10T02:50:31Z loke: thatnks 2018-04-10T02:51:26Z loke: Wow. Nice bugs! 2018-04-10T02:51:37Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:53:04Z pfdietz: thx 2018-04-10T02:53:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T02:53:58Z loke: pfdietz: Is this one a bug though? https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1739112 2018-04-10T02:54:30Z pfdietz: It's the intent of SBCL to never throw an error from the compiler even on malformed code. 2018-04-10T02:54:50Z pfdietz: Not required by the standard, but the SBCL devs consider such to be bugs in the compiler. 2018-04-10T02:55:35Z pfdietz: Granted, fixing all those is not the highest priority (although some indicate bugs that could show up from valid code.) 2018-04-10T02:56:22Z loke: The idea beain that the error is thrown when actually trying to call the fault function? 2018-04-10T02:57:03Z pfdietz: Right (and also to return the error return value T from the compile function). 2018-04-10T02:57:46Z pfdietz: For me, this means I can throw all sorts of random garbage at COMPILE looking for bugs. And that also is a fertile source of bug reports. 2018-04-10T02:58:40Z pfdietz: I've been randomly mutating forms pulled from quicklisp projects to generate test cases. Splicing them together randomly, for example. 2018-04-10T02:59:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T02:59:58Z atheris quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-10T03:00:00Z loke: pfdietz: What if some of that code calls (run-program "rm -fr /") 2018-04-10T03:00:14Z phadthai: pierpa: I now just saw some KCL derived code 2018-04-10T03:01:32Z pfdietz: I like to live dangerously, loke. :) 2018-04-10T03:01:48Z pfdietz: I suppose I could dockerize it. 2018-04-10T03:03:01Z _Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:04:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:07:57Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T03:08:06Z pierpa: phadthai: in Clisp? what code? 2018-04-10T03:08:40Z phadthai: code that appear to derive from Kyoto CL which compiled to C (and from which GCL and ECL are also derived) 2018-04-10T03:08:51Z pierpa: I know kcl 2018-04-10T03:09:05Z pierpa: but wht code you spotte? 2018-04-10T03:09:12Z phadthai: I really somehow believed it was only an interpreter 2018-04-10T03:09:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:09:42Z _Mental quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-10T03:09:53Z pierpa: actually, I have never seen any CL which which an interpreter only 2018-04-10T03:10:02Z pierpa: -which 2018-04-10T03:10:23Z phadthai: I possibly was confused with ECL's bytecode interpreter which I also read some time back (but is an optional component of course) 2018-04-10T03:10:56Z pfdietz: Clisp compiles to bytecode; perhaps that's what made you think it was an interpreter? 2018-04-10T03:11:05Z phadthai: (or rather, ECL also compiles to C, I mean) 2018-04-10T03:11:22Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-10T03:11:27Z pierpa: 'morning 2018-04-10T03:11:31Z pfdietz: Good morning. 2018-04-10T03:11:32Z phadthai: hello 2018-04-10T03:13:15Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T03:13:42Z _Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:13:49Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:13:51Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:13:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:14:24Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:16:14Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:16:18Z ldb: sup 2018-04-10T03:19:29Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-10T03:19:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:20:15Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:21:52Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:22:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:24:20Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:24:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:26:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:31:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:32:52Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:34:47Z m_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:36:39Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:39:21Z milanj_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:39:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:40:46Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:42:14Z ldb quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-10T03:42:35Z milanj__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:43:25Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T03:44:08Z e^i is now known as SaganMan 2018-04-10T03:44:31Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:44:56Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:44:57Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-10T03:45:30Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-10T03:48:43Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:49:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:50:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T03:54:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T03:56:16Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-10T03:56:20Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:02:10Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:03:40Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:06:16Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:10:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:10:22Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T04:11:31Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:14:53Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-10T04:14:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:15:23Z Oladon quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-10T04:16:40Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:16:58Z arescorpio quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-10T04:20:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:22:50Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:25:32Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:25:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:27:14Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:27:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:27:53Z oldtopman quit (Quit: *pouf*) 2018-04-10T04:29:41Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T04:30:15Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:30:44Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:37:58Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:38:01Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:40:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:41:49Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-10T04:45:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:49:06Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-10T04:51:44Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T04:52:08Z _Mental quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-10T05:01:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:05:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:06:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:06:29Z ophan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-10T05:07:01Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:08:34Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T05:08:41Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:09:44Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:10:00Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-10T05:10:36Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:18:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:19:09Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:21:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:22:04Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:23:12Z lemonpepper24 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T05:23:36Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:24:43Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:26:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:27:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:27:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:28:11Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:30:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:31:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:36:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:36:37Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:38:04Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:38:45Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:41:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:44:23Z myrkraverk_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:44:26Z flip214: the ELS banquet is on Monday, right? 2018-04-10T05:45:09Z beach: I think so, yes. 2018-04-10T05:46:27Z phoe: Morning 2018-04-10T05:46:36Z beach: Hello phoe. 2018-04-10T05:46:56Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:47:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:48:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:51:08Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:51:52Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:53:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:53:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:56:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T05:57:37Z drmeister: Is this valid Common Lisp syntax? 2018-04-10T05:57:39Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2i6wi4lR/ 2018-04-10T05:57:51Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T05:57:58Z drmeister: Specifically the lambda list for (macrolet ((with-element-output (() &body body) ...) on line 10 2018-04-10T05:58:21Z drmeister: I haven't seen an empty destructuring list like that before. 2018-04-10T05:58:33Z drmeister: This is from the 'yason' system. 2018-04-10T05:59:10Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T05:59:10Z drmeister: https://github.com/hanshuebner/yason/ 2018-04-10T05:59:53Z drmeister: https://github.com/hanshuebner/yason/blob/gh-pages/encode.lisp#L68 2018-04-10T06:00:01Z drmeister: beach: Cleavir has a problem with it. 2018-04-10T06:00:19Z beach: My immediate reaction is to say that it is not valid. 2018-04-10T06:00:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:00:30Z loke: beach: It's valid. 2018-04-10T06:00:51Z flip214: I've used an empty first argument list for macros a few times already, and saw more examples in other people's coed 2018-04-10T06:00:54Z flip214: *code 2018-04-10T06:01:03Z loke: Me too 2018-04-10T06:01:24Z beach: Yeah, it appears to be valid. 2018-04-10T06:01:24Z flip214: #| This argument placeholder intentionally left empty |# 2018-04-10T06:01:45Z drmeister: Ill file an issue 2018-04-10T06:01:45Z Winterschlaf joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:01:57Z beach: drmeister: I am not going to do anything about it before ELS. 2018-04-10T06:02:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:02:15Z drmeister: Sure 2018-04-10T06:03:42Z drmeister: Is this going to be an eclector issue (lambda lists) or sicl? 2018-04-10T06:05:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:05:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T06:07:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:07:56Z phoe: I often do this in my own macros. 2018-04-10T06:08:02Z phoe: (with-foo () ...) 2018-04-10T06:08:27Z phoe: The parens are there for possible further expansion of the macro's arguments. If you have no parens there, then you have no means of adding arguments to the macro later. 2018-04-10T06:08:46Z phoe: This empty list is a trick that people often use to make their macros extensible later. 2018-04-10T06:11:25Z drmeister: Thank you. 2018-04-10T06:11:26Z loke: phoe: I often do it. 2018-04-10T06:11:56Z phoe: So later you can things like (with-foo (frobnicate t) ...) 2018-04-10T06:12:05Z phoe: err 2018-04-10T06:12:08Z phoe: So later you can things like (with-foo (:frobnicate t) ...) 2018-04-10T06:12:16Z phoe: Or just put any kinds of optional/key args in there. 2018-04-10T06:13:40Z drmeister: Well, it's a bit of syntactic sugar that broke vlime on Cando (sigh) 2018-04-10T06:15:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T06:20:04Z drmeister: It might be simple - just add ((null tree-or-lambda-list) tree-or-lambda-list) to parse-pattern in lambda-lists.lisp Testing... 2018-04-10T06:21:32Z drmeister: Good night all - thanks everyone and beach - I haven't said it in a while - thanks for Cleavir. 2018-04-10T06:22:07Z flip214: drmeister: you're a vlime user? 2018-04-10T06:22:28Z phoe: drmeister: sleep well! 2018-04-10T06:22:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:22:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:23:02Z beach: drmeister: Good night and thanks. 2018-04-10T06:23:21Z flip214: hmmm, seems to be a different slime. Good night! 2018-04-10T06:23:31Z flip214: *vlime 2018-04-10T06:24:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:26:28Z mingus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T06:26:40Z mingus joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:26:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:29:21Z sendai_____ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:30:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:32:05Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:33:04Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:33:05Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:33:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:38:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:45:04Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:45:28Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:46:21Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:53:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:53:05Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T06:53:11Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:54:46Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:56:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-10T06:57:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T06:59:02Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:02:13Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:03:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:03:37Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:08:00Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:08:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:10:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:11:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:11:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:13:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:13:56Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T07:15:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:17:34Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:19:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:21:03Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:21:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:23:23Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:23:47Z chens is now known as Guest71491 2018-04-10T07:23:50Z phoe: If an ASDF system emits warnings during tests, will its test-op nonetheless complete successfully? 2018-04-10T07:24:17Z phoe: I want to emit a warning to make a note to the user about a test that is broken on a certain implementation. 2018-04-10T07:25:52Z Shinmera: Typically such things are done within the test framework itself by conditionally skipping tests 2018-04-10T07:26:50Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:27:43Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:32:23Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:32:46Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:34:43Z blt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:35:49Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:36:02Z dtornabene quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:36:49Z oldtopman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T07:37:04Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:37:27Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:37:33Z kammd[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-10T07:37:33Z cryptomarauder quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-10T07:37:33Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-10T07:38:27Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:39:44Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T07:40:28Z Guest71491 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:40:34Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:41:15Z blt joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:41:15Z blt quit (Changing host) 2018-04-10T07:41:15Z blt joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:45:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T07:48:13Z phoe: Yes, I skip the test, of course. But, when skipping a test, I want to emit a warning. 2018-04-10T07:48:16Z pyericz_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-10T07:48:28Z Shinmera: I would just print one, not signal one. 2018-04-10T07:48:54Z Shinmera: Interactive things such as signals should be left for when the test suite is run interactively. 2018-04-10T07:50:13Z pyericz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:51:09Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T07:54:29Z phoe: Okiedokie. 2018-04-10T07:55:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T08:02:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T08:03:25Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T08:04:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T08:06:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T08:10:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T08:16:29Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-10T08:18:46Z Younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T08:20:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-10T08:20:19Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T08:22:35Z 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joined #lisp 2018-04-10T12:27:35Z attila_lendvai: hi! drmeister: if i have the necessary rights, i can look into setting up those clasp branches in the forked repos. i think it would also make sense to fork/move every dependency into clasp-developers 2018-04-10T12:28:24Z jackdaniel: this is M-7 window, I'm sure you want M-9 which is #clasp ;-) 2018-04-10T12:29:00Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: oh, right, thanks! 2018-04-10T12:29:05Z MetaYan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T12:29:07Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T12:29:57Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2018-04-10T12:30:08Z Bronsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T12:30:23Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T12:38:14Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-10T12:38:33Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T12:38:42Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-10T12:42:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T12:42:57Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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front and rear doors are of a different class 2018-04-10T13:36:51Z jmercouris: I would like to invoke operations on the car level rather than the door level 2018-04-10T13:37:07Z jmercouris: for example I would like to be able to say (roll-down-window car rear-window) 2018-04-10T13:37:14Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:37:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T13:37:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:37:42Z phoe: (defgeneric roll-down-window (car window-type)) 2018-04-10T13:38:03Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:38:04Z phoe: (defmethod roll-down-window (car (window-type (eql 'rear-window))) ...) 2018-04-10T13:38:24Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: in CL methods doesn't belong to objects, so you can specialize on numerous objects in your function 2018-04-10T13:38:26Z phoe: (roll-down-window (make-instance 'ferrari) 'rear-window) 2018-04-10T13:38:43Z Xach: no-applicable-method 2018-04-10T13:38:46Z jackdaniel: like (defmethod roll-down-window ((car ferrari) (window rear-window)) …) ; 2018-04-10T13:38:48Z phoe: that is how I'd do it 2018-04-10T13:39:13Z Bike: what if i only want to roll down the left rear window 2018-04-10T13:39:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I know, this isn't actually a CL question, it is unfortunately in a different language 2018-04-10T13:39:35Z phoe: s/rear-window/left-rear-window/ 2018-04-10T13:39:41Z jmercouris: I understand I am in the CL channel, but you are the community I am most familiar with, and I value your opinions/ideas 2018-04-10T13:39:48Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-10T13:39:50Z Shinmera: phoe: (defmethod roll-down-window ((car car) (name symbol)) (roll-down-window car (ecase name (rear-window (rear-window car)) (front-window (front-window car))))) 2018-04-10T13:39:59Z phoe: sure 2018-04-10T13:40:02Z jackdaniel: in other language you'll need to have method being part of car and accepting argument 2018-04-10T13:40:04Z jmercouris: phoe: I like that approach, I might compare the object type 2018-04-10T13:40:36Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: right, I was going to have a car class that has a method called roll-down-window that accepts an argument for which window 2018-04-10T13:40:43Z jmercouris: the question was how to reference that window? 2018-04-10T13:40:46Z jackdaniel: or have function which is not generic and check argument types by itself 2018-04-10T13:40:49Z jmercouris: a string? make a new instance every time? 2018-04-10T13:40:50Z phoe: or (defgeneric roll-down-window (car window-designator)) so window-designator can be an instance of a window object, or a symbol 2018-04-10T13:41:03Z phoe: jmercouris: why make new instances all the time? 2018-04-10T13:41:11Z phoe: have slots in the car object that hold the windows 2018-04-10T13:41:15Z jmercouris: I don't see how else it is possible, unless they are class level functinos 2018-04-10T13:41:24Z jackdaniel: if it is just a matter of finite number of windows (like: front / rear) I'd just make the argument an enum 2018-04-10T13:41:51Z jackdaniel: and forget about the whole issue 2018-04-10T13:41:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T13:42:11Z jmercouris: That's unfortunately not ideal of a solution, but it's the best for now I guess 2018-04-10T13:42:17Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:42:22Z jmercouris: the reason why it is not ideal is because the amount of edits will grow exponentially 2018-04-10T13:42:29Z jmercouris: let's say I have such an enum, and I have five different car class types 2018-04-10T13:42:37Z jmercouris: each car will have a different enum based on the applicable amount of windows 2018-04-10T13:42:37Z phoe: jmercouris: do your cars have variable number of windows? 2018-04-10T13:42:45Z jmercouris: yes, not every car has the same quantity of windows 2018-04-10T13:42:54Z phoe: but they are all windows, right? 2018-04-10T13:42:57Z jackdaniel: exponentially is a bit of exagerration 2018-04-10T13:43:11Z jmercouris: well, it is exponential, there are 5 car models, with 4 window variations let's say 2018-04-10T13:43:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:43:32Z phoe: (defclass automobile () ((windows :initform (make-hash-table) :accessor windows))) 2018-04-10T13:44:06Z phoe: (window automobile 'rear-window) => (gethash 'rear-window (windows automobile)) 2018-04-10T13:44:06Z jackdaniel: if they differ in how you handle each window in each model, then you'll always need to have NxM code paths 2018-04-10T13:44:20Z jmercouris: Yeah, there is no way around that... 2018-04-10T13:44:27Z jmercouris: at least with the object model in this language 2018-04-10T13:44:34Z phoe: keep a collection of all windows that you have in a hashtable 2018-04-10T13:44:41Z jackdaniel: you may squeeze it in one function or spread around NxM functions, but it will be the same in CL and C neverless 2018-04-10T13:44:42Z jmercouris: phoe: I will do that yes, thank you for the idea 2018-04-10T13:45:20Z phoe: you seem to want a simple map from window types to window objects, which is not unlike a JSONy object, { front-window: #, rear-window: # } 2018-04-10T13:45:26Z phoe: and hash-tables are exactly these. 2018-04-10T13:45:39Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'll have a public dictionary 2018-04-10T13:45:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:45:49Z jmercouris: that way one can also query the car and see which windows it supports 2018-04-10T13:45:59Z jmercouris: well, public in the OO context 2018-04-10T13:46:12Z splittist quit (Quit: ~) 2018-04-10T13:46:15Z phoe: sure, make class-allocated slots that specify the available window types 2018-04-10T13:46:20Z splittist joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:46:23Z phoe: instead of instance-allocated slots 2018-04-10T13:46:24Z jmercouris: so the car should be responsible for instantiating its own windows and assigning them into its own dictionary 2018-04-10T13:46:31Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T13:46:53Z jmercouris: ok, I've got a good vision in my head, now thanks everyone 2018-04-10T13:47:09Z phoe: sure, that's doable, for each symbol in (window-types automobile) do (setf (window automobile symbol) (make-instance symbol)) 2018-04-10T13:47:32Z phoe: where (setf window) is analogous to the #'WINDOW function I mentioned above 2018-04-10T13:48:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T13:48:23Z jmercouris: yep, thx 2018-04-10T13:48:23Z phoe: as in, it expands into STEF GETHASH 2018-04-10T13:48:28Z phoe: SETF* 2018-04-10T13:49:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:49:41Z phoe: Has anyone attempted to implement the ActivityPub protocol in Common Lisp? 2018-04-10T13:50:24Z alms_clozure quit (Quit: ~) 2018-04-10T13:50:32Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:50:50Z Xach: What is the ActivityPub protocol? 2018-04-10T13:51:26Z dlowe: the one underlying federated social networks 2018-04-10T13:51:29Z dlowe: like Mastodon 2018-04-10T13:52:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:53:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-10T13:55:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T13:57:09Z 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I’d like them to have maximal precision, but don’t want to have a trailing d0 or d-5 or something like that. Is there a quick solution to this? 2018-04-10T14:36:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:37:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:37:54Z Bike: function name is a string: GET-CXX-DATA-STRUCTURE-INFO. guessing i have to distclean 2018-04-10T14:38:00Z Bike: whoops wrong channel 2018-04-10T14:38:44Z weltung quit (Quit: ~) 2018-04-10T14:38:52Z weltung joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:38:57Z sjl: schweers: (format t "~F" pi) ? 2018-04-10T14:39:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:39:28Z schweers: really, that is it? could you please shoot me for this? 2018-04-10T14:39:45Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:40:16Z sjl: hmm, maybe not 2018-04-10T14:40:21Z sjl: clhs 22.3.3.1 2018-04-10T14:40:21Z specbot: Tilde F: Fixed-Format Floating-Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 2018-04-10T14:40:28Z sjl: > If w is omitted, then if the magnitude of arg is so large (or, if d is also omitted, so small) that more than 100 digits would have to be printed, then an implementation is free, at its discretion, to print the number using exponential notation instead, as if by the directive ~E (with all parameters to ~E defaulted, not taking their values from the ~F directive). 2018-04-10T14:41:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T14:41:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:41:50Z schweers: the point is: these double-floats are intended to be the input for postgresql 2018-04-10T14:42:45Z schweers: okay, I’m fine with a dirty hack, so something along the lines of ~1000F should be fine. 2018-04-10T14:43:15Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:43:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:43:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:45:24Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:46:50Z schweers: no, that is not what I want 2018-04-10T14:48:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:49:11Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:49:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:50:20Z Shinmera: Wait, if you're passing data to postgresql why are you serialising it to strings? 2018-04-10T14:50:31Z Shinmera: You should use prepared statements to pass data. 2018-04-10T14:52:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:53:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:54:25Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:54:27Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T14:55:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T14:59:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:00:07Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:00:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:02:19Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T15:03:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:07:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:07:26Z schweers: Shinmera: I don’t pass it directly. It’s a dirty hack my collegue came up with. So I have no choice here. This stuff isn’t mission critical or anything, so I’m fine with his approach. 2018-04-10T15:07:36Z schweers: but yes, normally you would be right :D 2018-04-10T15:08:05Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:10:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:11:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:11:57Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:12:33Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:13:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:14:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:16:03Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:16:38Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_lunch 2018-04-10T15:17:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:19:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:19:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:23:54Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:24:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:25:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:25:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:29:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:30:16Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T15:30:31Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:31:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:32:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:36:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:37:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:39:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:40:58Z warweasle_lunch is now known as warweasle 2018-04-10T15:41:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:42:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:42:20Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T15:42:47Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:42:51Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:43:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:45:27Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:47:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:47:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:49:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:49:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:53:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T15:55:10Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-10T15:55:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:00:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:00:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:01:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:02:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:03:25Z nmajo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T16:03:37Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-10T16:05:24Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:06:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:06:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-10T16:07:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:08:43Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:11:17Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:12:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:12:52Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2018-04-10T16:13:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:13:57Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:16:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:18:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:18:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:18:41Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-10T16:19:10Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:19:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:22:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:22:29Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:23:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:24:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:24:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:25:17Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:25:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:27:36Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:28:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:29:03Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:29:35Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:30:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:30:54Z Oddity joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:30:54Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2018-04-10T16:30:54Z Oddity joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:31:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:36:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:38:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:42:59Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:43:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:44:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:47:28Z jeosol_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:47:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:48:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:49:23Z jeosol_: morning guys 2018-04-10T16:49:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:50:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:50:36Z phoe: hey jeosol_ 2018-04-10T16:50:52Z jeosol_: Anyone working with CL on machine learning projects. I looked at Gabor's ML code several months ago and now trying to get back to it and similar projects. 2018-04-10T16:51:09Z jeosol_: hi phoe 2018-04-10T16:51:44Z jeosol_: been a while. I finally was able to get my challenge code to be stable and it's running now. Unfortunately, I may not have enough time to run all cases 2018-04-10T16:53:38Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:53:51Z phoe: I can't help you with ML projects since it's completely not what I deal with. 2018-04-10T16:53:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:54:07Z phoe: Maybe someone else though - or maybe you could make your questions more concrete 2018-04-10T16:55:09Z jeosol_: phoe: I work in ML but with other languages. 2018-04-10T16:55:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:55:16Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T16:56:01Z jeosol_: my question is around the tools/libraries that are being used for those in the projects. I recently took the Coursera ML course and was thinking of replicating the examples in CL (SBCL) for those who may be interested 2018-04-10T16:56:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T16:58:06Z jmercouris: jeosol_: I've looked and I've honestly not seen too much support for ML in Lisp 2018-04-10T16:58:09Z jmercouris: which is ironic in a sense 2018-04-10T16:58:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T16:58:36Z jmercouris: I'm sure there are some tools, but most stuff seems to just be in C wrapped in another language 2018-04-10T16:59:30Z jeosol_: jmercouris: thanks for that feedback 2018-04-10T17:00:18Z jeosol_: I did try to compile clml library a while ago while I was looking neural networks and clustering algorithm codes. I was able to get it to load and all, but the interface was not clean enough for me to test cases. 2018-04-10T17:00:47Z jmercouris: I think it would be a fun exercise to implement some of these algorithms/data structures in Lisp, shouldn't be too hard 2018-04-10T17:01:00Z jmercouris: I'm not sure you'll get amazing performance with a simple solution, but it would be fun 2018-04-10T17:01:20Z Winterschlaf left #lisp 2018-04-10T17:01:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:02:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:03:32Z jeosol_: I then looked at Gabor's code, I was able to get it to with latest SBCL after some minor modifications (not code, just some quicklisp related things). I didn't have cuda though. The test case for the Higgs Boson challenge was running over a day so I had to kill it back then. 2018-04-10T17:04:16Z jeosol_: From Gabor's site, I think he mentioned that he used cuda and was able to get the training and test done in a day. 2018-04-10T17:04:20Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how experienced you are in the ML space, but I only run extremely small data sets on my own machine 2018-04-10T17:04:21Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:04:26Z jmercouris: large and big data sets I leave for the server 2018-04-10T17:04:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-10T17:05:14Z habamax quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:05:18Z jmercouris: I also like to work with algorithms that don't require a lot of memory 2018-04-10T17:05:18Z jeosol_: I have run fair big problems, not the big data types, with Spark (clustering), and C++ code (on linux) 2018-04-10T17:05:31Z jmercouris: yeah, clustering for example, so much memory required... 2018-04-10T17:05:57Z jeosol_: This was a while back before all the big data/data science stuff. Most of the applications was just on linux, eg., clustering large data sets. 2018-04-10T17:06:37Z jeosol_: But with CL, I have small code snippets for doing kNN, and clustering, not optimized for large problems. 2018-04-10T17:06:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:07:10Z jmercouris: You know what you could do, CFFI in Lisp is actually really good and easy to use, you could wrap one of the big libs in CL 2018-04-10T17:07:15Z jmercouris: that would be pretty useful for others as well 2018-04-10T17:07:27Z jeosol_: I plan to pick up Gabor's code again. My initial test then was to replicated his results for the Higgs Boson challenge and just go from there. 2018-04-10T17:07:31Z jmercouris: maybe even make a Lispy API 2018-04-10T17:07:38Z jeosol_: jmercouris: big libs? 2018-04-10T17:07:49Z jmercouris: jeosol_: I don't mean big in terms of file size, I mean popular 2018-04-10T17:07:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:08:04Z jeosol_: Oh I see what you mean 2018-04-10T17:08:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:08:35Z jmercouris: for example, you might do opencv using something like clasp 2018-04-10T17:09:16Z jeosol_: I have seen a few matrix related libraries on cliki back then and I am trying to see what people use. In my initial review of the Gabor's code, he has some optimized data structures for different computation, e.g., if cuda is enabled. I have to look at it again 2018-04-10T17:09:22Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:10:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:12:29Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:13:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:13:31Z jeosol_: I am sure I can search one of the libraries and get some numeric optimization algorithms which would be what I would need for the simpler examples (linear and logistic regression) in the course. 2018-04-10T17:13:36Z capitaomorte: Hi, does anyone here know how to crash sbcl on purpose, i.e. make it drop into ldb? 2018-04-10T17:13:53Z jeosol_: jmercouris: I found this http://quickdocs.org/clml/ 2018-04-10T17:13:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:14:03Z jeosol_: you have probably seen it before? 2018-04-10T17:14:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:14:34Z Misha_B joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:15:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:15:32Z jmercouris: jeosol_: yes 2018-04-10T17:16:02Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:16:47Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:17:00Z jeosol_: I think I would try to link with that effort and use the library as a starting point for the examples. 2018-04-10T17:17:14Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:17:20Z jmercouris: seems reasonable enough, best of luck :) 2018-04-10T17:17:56Z jeosol_: I could not get a clustering case to run back then, but it was probably due to not understanding the packages and how things are organized. 2018-04-10T17:18:00Z jeosol_: thanks. 2018-04-10T17:18:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:18:53Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:19:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:20:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:21:22Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:24:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:25:03Z jeosol_: jmercouris, since you are familiar with the space, I will peg you down as a potential reviewer 2018-04-10T17:25:15Z jmercouris: jeosol_: sounds good! 2018-04-10T17:25:48Z jeosol_: I sent an email to Mike who maintains the CLML library. 2018-04-10T17:26:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:26:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:26:39Z jeosol_: You comment about wrapping popular libs in CL is interesting too. That would be worth considering. 2018-04-10T17:26:54Z jmercouris: Cool, did you also look at the open github issues? https://github.com/mmaul/clml/issues 2018-04-10T17:26:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:27:14Z jmercouris: jeosol_: I think it would be an efficient way to get a lot of value for your time 2018-04-10T17:27:24Z jmercouris: I know you spoke about SBCL earlier, but you could use Clasp to wrap C++ 2018-04-10T17:27:44Z jmercouris: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp 2018-04-10T17:27:47Z jeosol_: ok. I am not an expert CFFI guy. 2018-04-10T17:27:51Z jeosol_: ok, that's helpful 2018-04-10T17:28:33Z jmercouris: I've never worked with the FFI for C++, only for C 2018-04-10T17:28:42Z jmercouris: so I can't say much about it, but the C one is really quite good 2018-04-10T17:28:55Z jmercouris: it took me about a day to get used to it, I just looked at some examples, and I was able to use it 2018-04-10T17:31:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:32:01Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:32:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:33:02Z jackdaniel: ECL may be compiled with C++ compiler and then it can interact with C++ world (and vice versa) 2018-04-10T17:33:57Z jeosol_: jmercouris: read the clasp page. Seems very interesting. Since there are very efficient codes for C/C++ that approach makes sense. I will wait to hear back from Mike so as not to be duplicating efforts. Kind of see what they are doing if any in this space. 2018-04-10T17:34:12Z capitaomorte quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:34:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:34:42Z pierpa quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-10T17:35:12Z jmercouris: that makes a lot of sense, I'd be interested to know how that conversation goes :) 2018-04-10T17:35:29Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:35:29Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:36:27Z pierpa left #lisp 2018-04-10T17:37:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:38:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:38:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:38:46Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:38:50Z jeosol_: jmercouris: sure, I will definitely get back to you. Likd I said, it will be good to get reviewers in the space. I like the approach of wrapping existing functionalities which means one can starting using those libraries within CL 2018-04-10T17:39:09Z jeosol_: and bring the rapid development and prototyping of solutions to that space. 2018-04-10T17:39:20Z jmercouris: Yeah, that would be the really big benefit 2018-04-10T17:39:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:39:27Z jmercouris: the REPL cannot be overstated 2018-04-10T17:39:40Z jmercouris: I've been frustrated by even languages that purportedly come with a REPL 2018-04-10T17:39:45Z jmercouris: the one in Python drives me crazy for example 2018-04-10T17:40:11Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:41:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:43:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:43:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:44:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:46:24Z pierpa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:46:52Z try joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:47:15Z try is now known as Guest69351 2018-04-10T17:47:36Z rpg: jmercouris: ditto for JavaScript 2018-04-10T17:48:53Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:48:59Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-10T17:49:13Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-10T17:50:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:50:23Z Guest78093 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:51:59Z jeosol_: jmercouris: lol on python repl 2018-04-10T17:52:01Z jeosol_: hahhaha 2018-04-10T17:52:15Z try_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:52:42Z jeosol_: I agree, the REPL can not be overstated, there is a just a different way of developing software with CL. I came from C/C++ background: edit-compile-link ... blah blah 2018-04-10T17:53:28Z jmercouris: rpg: we can go on and on, nothing compares to the CL REPL 2018-04-10T17:53:44Z jeosol_: You can build large by those small updates, here and there, and you test your ideas and get rapid feedback. For me for the challenge I talked about, I often have to load my data set that can take 10 mins to just to load 2018-04-10T17:53:50Z rpg: jmercouris: Agreed. And I wish SLDB didn't hide it from me. :-( 2018-04-10T17:54:11Z jmercouris: that's the worst loading and reloading the data set when your program crashes 2018-04-10T17:54:19Z jeosol_: once I do that, I don't have to reload that data, and I can just keep working, and working 2018-04-10T17:54:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:54:35Z jmercouris: especially when you find that it is just a simple logic mistake, and there you are, waiting another 10 minutes 2018-04-10T17:54:55Z jeosol_: jmercouris: exactly 2018-04-10T17:55:18Z jmercouris: this is why I especially don't understand companies that not only use tools that require compilation but *ALSO* have complex building and deployment requirements 2018-04-10T17:55:21Z jeosol_: it would have been impossible to get my project done. 2018-04-10T17:55:23Z jmercouris: how do your engineers get anything done? 2018-04-10T17:55:40Z rpg: I have to admit that I'm getting pretty grumpy about not having some kind of type-checking, though. Seems like partial type checking has never really caught on. But I end up with a ton of stupid errors that way. 2018-04-10T17:55:41Z Guest69351 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T17:55:47Z jmercouris: s/require compilation/cannot be partially recompiled in a live image/ 2018-04-10T17:55:51Z jeosol_: I actually have to put up slides to convince colleagues in the future on the benefits 2018-04-10T17:55:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:56:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T17:56:23Z jmercouris: It doesn't matter, you can't convince them, too much organizational inertia usually 2018-04-10T17:56:29Z jmercouris: the best you can do is found a new company and start with CL 2018-04-10T17:56:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T17:56:34Z jeosol_: rgp: That could be true. My code uses CLOS 2018-04-10T17:56:42Z jeosol_: yeah, jmercouris 2018-04-10T17:56:58Z jeosol_: I actually worked on a product on my own, and I used CL (SBCL specifically) for everything 2018-04-10T17:57:06Z jmercouris: it goes back to that old adage as well, "nobody got fired for picking IBM" 2018-04-10T17:57:28Z jmercouris: jeosol_: it's definitely liberating isn't it? 2018-04-10T17:57:57Z jeosol_: in a former job, I told a boss I was tired of looking at an excel sheet with 1000 rows and > 200 columns and I have to pick data manually. He said they don't want change. I get the requests daily and it can take me 3-4 days for data extraction 2018-04-10T17:58:49Z jeosol_: eventually, I wrote something with SQLITE and CLSQL, converted the excel file to CSV and can load the columns I need. Less than a day and all requests (queries as functions) takes seconds to get back 2018-04-10T17:59:02Z jeosol_: they were amazed how fast I am able to return the queries that they need. 2018-04-10T17:59:48Z jeosol_: jmercouris: Liberating doesn't do justice. For me, CLOS, the debugger, etc, was instrumental to my development style. 2018-04-10T18:00:03Z pootler joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:00:26Z jeosol_: If a code is blowing up, I have the object or argument to that function call, and can test as much as I want still it is resolve. 2018-04-10T18:00:58Z try_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:01:10Z jeosol_: I agree, the organizational inertia is too much to overcome. Colleagues have seen my screen emacs and asks what's is this strange language I am using. 2018-04-10T18:01:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:01:29Z jmercouris: I think it is best to just stay under the radar, and work more efficiently 2018-04-10T18:01:42Z jmercouris: in the past, people have made a big deal about me using emacs, despite me never talking about it 2018-04-10T18:01:43Z jeosol_: that was what I did eventually. 2018-04-10T18:01:47Z try_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:02:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:02:25Z jmercouris: same thing with using CL in the workplace, if you can write something quickly in CL, just make the tool and expose the API in the form of your colleagues making requests of you, they don't need to know the underlying implementation :D 2018-04-10T18:02:37Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-10T18:06:44Z try_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:06:48Z try__ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:06:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:08:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:08:15Z jeosol_: jmercouris: That is a good way to deal with. No one really needs to know the implementation as long as there is some interface. 2018-04-10T18:08:39Z jeosol_: Btw, the python and JS REPL comparisons :-) 2018-04-10T18:10:38Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:11:21Z rpg: Thing I'm wishing right now -- that it was easier to pass information from one SHOP image to another. Packages make this hard, of course, but it still seems harder than it should be. 2018-04-10T18:11:35Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:11:55Z try______ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:12:17Z try__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:13:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:13:40Z didi joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:13:57Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:13:59Z ophan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:14:36Z didi: I just realized the function is called `LIST', not `list'. I wonder if a package, any package, would survive a change on reading case conversion. 2018-04-10T18:15:00Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:15:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:16:52Z try_____ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:17:08Z rpg: didi: Do you mean the code in the package, or the package definition itself? 2018-04-10T18:17:25Z didi: rpg: I mean loading a package. 2018-04-10T18:17:45Z try______ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:17:51Z didi: rpg: But your questions makes it even more interesting. 2018-04-10T18:18:25Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:18:39Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:18:42Z wigust- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-10T18:18:48Z rpg: didi: so you mean something like a package that has been saved in a FASL file? because I don't think you can actually serialize a package (or print it readably), at least not with a lot of effort. 2018-04-10T18:19:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:19:59Z didi: rpg: No no (more good questions). I mean (load "file-with-package.lisp"). But we can go further and think about an ASDF system. 2018-04-10T18:20:55Z rpg: I suppose one could send stuff back and forth by printing stuff readably back and forth between two communicating lisps, and hope that you haven't accidentally transmitted something that requires context that the other doesn't have. 2018-04-10T18:21:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:22:04Z try___ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:22:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:23:49Z try_____ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:25:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:26:35Z pierpa quit (Quit: Simple IRC: The quit option.) 2018-04-10T18:26:52Z rpg: As I find myself wanting to do more in parallel, this kind of hurts. 2018-04-10T18:27:05Z try_____ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:27:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:27:32Z didi: Fun example: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/7878ead0 2018-04-10T18:28:17Z phoe: rpg: https://github.com/brown/swank-crew 2018-04-10T18:28:54Z phoe: you can use swank for interlisp communication (pun intended) 2018-04-10T18:29:00Z try___ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:29:21Z rpg: phoe: That's pretty cool. 2018-04-10T18:29:33Z phoe: rpg: it is. There are swank clients written in pure CL, too. 2018-04-10T18:29:49Z phoe: so swank isn't just a backend for slime, it's a general backend for lisp-lisp communication. 2018-04-10T18:30:07Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:30:58Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:32:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:32:11Z try______ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:33:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:33:52Z rpg: phoe: Interesting -- I have always thought of it more as a backend for elisp-lisp communication 2018-04-10T18:34:32Z phoe: rpg: yes. it's more powerful than that though. 2018-04-10T18:34:52Z phoe: it's essentially an engine for RPC. and you know what is achievable with RPC. (; 2018-04-10T18:35:02Z try_____ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:35:14Z rpg: phoe: Yes, Chaos! No! I mean Great Things! 2018-04-10T18:35:32Z phoe: why not both? 2018-04-10T18:35:34Z rpg: Let's make distributed object systems great again 2018-04-10T18:37:16Z try____ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:37:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:39:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:40:06Z try______ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:40:06Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:42:50Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-10T18:43:04Z try______ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:43:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:45:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:46:05Z try____ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:47:16Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T18:48:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:49:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:50:35Z try______ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T18:56:12Z try____ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T18:57:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:01:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:02:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:03:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:04:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:04:10Z phoe: rpg: actually it seems that each object for which you can define MAKE-LOAD-FORM can be transmitted over to other nodes 2018-04-10T19:04:32Z rpg: phoe: Yes, that should work. 2018-04-10T19:05:09Z rpg: My application involves symbolic computing, which makes things more tricky than they would otherwise be. 2018-04-10T19:05:45Z phoe: symbolic computing, as in, you use symbols in your data structures? 2018-04-10T19:06:07Z phoe: because if they are interned, then you need to use :: to make sure they are interned 2018-04-10T19:06:17Z phoe: and if they are not, you're in trouble 2018-04-10T19:06:32Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-10T19:06:59Z rpg: phoe: if I make sure that both sides have the same packages, and I don't do anything scary like use property lists, I can make it work. 2018-04-10T19:07:08Z phoe: rpg: yep, that is correct. 2018-04-10T19:07:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:07:27Z phoe: also limit the packages where you intern everything to some kind of FOO-USER package 2018-04-10T19:07:41Z phoe: so all the namespace pollution that might happen is restricted to that package. 2018-04-10T19:08:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:08:39Z rpg: phoe: the issue is that I'm doing things like building symbols for logical variables. If I do the reasoning in one image, and only export the conclusions, I can avoid ending up with a lot of un-collectable garbage. 2018-04-10T19:09:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:09:12Z phoe: rpg: with-temp-package 2018-04-10T19:09:25Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.lisp#L100 2018-04-10T19:09:45Z phoe: that's the tiny tool that I wrote for using READ in it. 2018-04-10T19:10:10Z phoe: after the package is deleted, all symbols that were read become uninterned. 2018-04-10T19:10:17Z rpg: phoe: Yes, that would work, I think. 2018-04-10T19:10:45Z phoe: make sure to explicitly :use () in your scrap package though to avoid getting implicit uses. 2018-04-10T19:11:12Z rpg: For me, though, it may be hard to identify what symbols can be put in a temporary package and what are conclusions ("outputs"), since I'm producing what are effectively proofs. 2018-04-10T19:11:52Z phoe: You could try iterating over your output and interning all symbols in that output in some other package. 2018-04-10T19:12:16Z phoe: This would clean up the symbols that get lost in the computation. 2018-04-10T19:12:45Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:13:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:13:46Z pierpa_: there's the WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX macro which takes care of all these things 2018-04-10T19:14:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:14:55Z phoe: pierpa_: uh, no, it does not create a temporary package 2018-04-10T19:15:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:15:05Z phoe: it always binds to CL-USER 2018-04-10T19:15:17Z pierpa_: but it takes care of aetting things in the same way at both ends 2018-04-10T19:15:22Z pierpa_: *setting 2018-04-10T19:15:28Z phoe: ohh, right - you mean this 2018-04-10T19:15:41Z pierpa_: yes 2018-04-10T19:15:50Z phoe: for things that are printable, yes; I was thinking of things which are dumpable into FASLs and loadable from FASLs 2018-04-10T19:16:31Z phoe: because you could implement a mechanism that compiles something, dumps it into a FASL, sends the FASL over the network; the other node downloads and loads the FASL, gets an object 2018-04-10T19:16:52Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:17:27Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T19:17:28Z phoe: and this would work for sending arbitrary data between Lisps, as long as everything is FASL-dumpable 2018-04-10T19:17:46Z pierpa_: FASLs should think by themselves about interning in the right packages, I think? I never tried this. 2018-04-10T19:18:34Z phoe: yep, that's correct - except FASLs might always fail to load if some dependencies aren't met for example 2018-04-10T19:18:34Z Bike: consequences are undefined if the package system isn't in the same state during load as it was for the compiler 2018-04-10T19:18:36Z Bike: i think 2018-04-10T19:18:44Z phoe: such as a missing package 2018-04-10T19:18:47Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-10T19:18:54Z phoe: or perhaps an undefined class when you try to load an instance of that class 2018-04-10T19:18:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:18:58Z ferada joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:19:14Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-10T19:19:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-10T19:19:32Z phoe: if you make sure that the two images have the same* packages then you should be good 2018-04-10T19:19:51Z phoe: *the same enough that is, I wouldn't count silly things like ones created via WITH-TEMP-PACKAGE 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2018-04-11T00:22:53Z Xach: i am doing a sampling thing and sbcl's random is dominating my runtime 2018-04-11T00:25:45Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-11T00:27:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:28:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:28:49Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:29:04Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:31:40Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:32:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:33:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:34:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:36:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:39:23Z dim: ironclad might have something? IDK really 2018-04-11T00:39:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:39:45Z dim: I guess I should go to sleep even, darn, I failed to notice what time it is 2018-04-11T00:39:46Z Xach: maybe i can use postgres's random via postmodern 2018-04-11T00:40:05Z dim: sure will improve your situation ;-) 2018-04-11T00:40:46Z comborico1611: Lisp rules! 2018-04-11T00:40:53Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-11T00:40:56Z White_Flame: Lisp rule engines! 2018-04-11T00:44:39Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:46:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:47:29Z paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:48:24Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:48:32Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T00:51:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:52:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T00:57:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T00:58:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:00:17Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:03:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:04:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:06:40Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:07:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-11T01:09:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:09:48Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:10:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:11:35Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:12:58Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:13:42Z theemacsshibe[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:13:56Z theemacsshibe[m]: hello 2018-04-11T01:15:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:15:37Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:16:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:18:16Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T01:21:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:22:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:22:53Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:24:31Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T01:25:32Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:25:41Z ldb: sup 2018-04-11T01:26:26Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:26:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:27:06Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:27:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T01:27:43Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:28:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:29:06Z Dooper joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:30:16Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2018-04-11T01:31:01Z esthlos quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - 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Still no serious analysis in the paper, though. 2018-04-11T02:21:53Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:22:00Z Bike: would be neat if it was a replacement for LCG tho 2018-04-11T02:25:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:26:36Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:28:31Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:30:25Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:31:03Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:31:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:32:51Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:34:30Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:35:47Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:35:57Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:36:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:38:33Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T02:38:57Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:41:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:42:25Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:42:36Z manjaro-user joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:45:02Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:46:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:52:25Z jeosol_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T02:54:14Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-11T02:59:49Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:00:37Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:00:45Z deng_cn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T03:01:05Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:01:18Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:01:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:03:47Z xiangsheng joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:04:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:06:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:06:27Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:07:57Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-11T03:09:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:11:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:12:43Z BoopBeep joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:15:42Z u0_a183 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:16:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:16:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:17:10Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-11T03:17:36Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-11T03:21:44Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:21:53Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:21:57Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:24:17Z manjaro-user quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-11T03:27:43Z BoopBeep quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2018-04-11T03:31:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:33:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:36:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:37:20Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:42:44Z pillton joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:44:20Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:47:08Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-11T03:47:25Z mepian quit (Quit: EliteBNC - http://elitebnc.org (Auto-Removal: idle account/not being used)) 2018-04-11T03:51:05Z chens quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-11T03:52:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T03:52:45Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-11T03:53:14Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:56:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T03:59:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T04:00:26Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-11T04:01:53Z xiangsheng quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T04:01:53Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T04:02:09Z pierpa_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-11T04:02:30Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-11T04:05:26Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-11T04:08:14Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T04:10:23Z matchray joined #lisp 2018-04-11T04:10:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-11T04:10:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T04:12:53Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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But I am good with computers, so I know about `grep'. 2018-04-11T04:58:11Z beach: Oh, good. 2018-04-11T04:59:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: i got SLIME set up too and it's very fancy. 2018-04-11T04:59:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: quicklisp is a work of genius too 2018-04-11T05:01:11Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:01:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-11T05:02:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: welp, ffmpeg just ate all my RAM and swap then got killed 2018-04-11T05:03:36Z beach: Quicklisp is great, yes. SLIME is OK, but not as marvelous as some people think. 2018-04-11T05:03:56Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's pretty good most of the time 2018-04-11T05:04:06Z beach: Exactly. 2018-04-11T05:04:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: and it works in emacs which is also nice 2018-04-11T05:05:14Z beach: Sure. 2018-04-11T05:05:47Z theemacsshibe[m]: do you not like emacs? 2018-04-11T05:05:56Z ldb: no 2018-04-11T05:05:58Z theemacsshibe[m] observes her username 2018-04-11T05:06:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: i was not paid by RMS to say that i swear 2018-04-11T05:06:11Z ldb: emacs is good for emacs lisp, but not CL 2018-04-11T05:06:26Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Me? Oh, I do. But I would like something better for editing Common Lisp code. 2018-04-11T05:06:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: yeah, that is true 2018-04-11T05:06:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: i tried Climacs recently 2018-04-11T05:06:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's a CL program which kinda reminded me of the lisp machine *macsen 2018-04-11T05:08:07Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:08:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:09:06Z beach: I am working on Second Climacs, which I hope will be even better for Common Lisp programming. 2018-04-11T05:09:19Z panji joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:09:55Z lonjil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T05:11:02Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:11:08Z ldb: beach: i investigated some buffer implementation and doubles the potential performace issue of dividing a buffer by linebreaks 2018-04-11T05:11:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: wow! that's great 2018-04-11T05:12:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: (so is zram as it happens, but Second Climacs seems more interesting) 2018-04-11T05:12:27Z beach: ldb: Compared to what? 2018-04-11T05:12:31Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:12:38Z beach: ldb: Do you know about Cluffer? 2018-04-11T05:14:05Z ldb: beach: Cluffer is like a combination of linked line and flexichain 2018-04-11T05:14:19Z beach: ldb: You can say that. 2018-04-11T05:14:36Z beach: It uses a splay tree for the lines, and each open line is a gap buffer. 2018-04-11T05:14:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: i think a python bytecode compiler would be cool. i think it could be done as a CL macro. 2018-04-11T05:15:47Z ldb: theemacsshibe[m]: there was a legacy python compiler in CL 2018-04-11T05:15:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: nice 2018-04-11T05:16:32Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:16:55Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:17:10Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:17:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T05:18:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:19:05Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Why would that be cool? 2018-04-11T05:19:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: you'd effectively be interfacing two weakly typed languages. 2018-04-11T05:19:38Z theemacsshibe[m]: the improvement is CL is very fast 2018-04-11T05:19:54Z beach: Common Lisp is not weakly typed. 2018-04-11T05:19:54Z ldb there's Cpython 2018-04-11T05:20:08Z beach: It is strongly typed, and dynamically typed. 2018-04-11T05:20:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: oh ok 2018-04-11T05:20:25Z ldb: because it does type check at runtime 2018-04-11T05:20:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: that is true 2018-04-11T05:21:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: but (some) common lisp systems compiles to machine code, whereas CPython writes to bytecode like CLISP 2018-04-11T05:21:33Z ldb: beach: can't figure out how to undo edit commands 2018-04-11T05:21:52Z beach: ldb: In Climacs? 2018-04-11T05:21:55Z beach: I don't remember. 2018-04-11T05:22:02Z beach: C-x u maybe? 2018-04-11T05:22:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:23:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:25:32Z ldb: it amazed me that most emacsen use different impls of buffer 2018-04-11T05:26:06Z beach: Why? 2018-04-11T05:26:13Z ldb umm, it's C-_ 2018-04-11T05:26:27Z beach: Oh, OK. 2018-04-11T05:26:33Z theemacsshibe[m]: i also showed my computing teacher lisp 2018-04-11T05:27:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: he liked the file I/O and implicit "return"s 2018-04-11T05:27:54Z beach: He aint seen nothing yet. 2018-04-11T05:28:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: `#1=(that much is true . #1#)` 2018-04-11T05:28:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: and also more than that 2018-04-11T05:28:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:29:10Z theemacsshibe[m] tries to move up to that line and fix it like you would on a C64 2018-04-11T05:29:58Z ldb: beach: it shows the evolution of researchs on algorithm 2018-04-11T05:30:23Z beach: ldb: True. 2018-04-11T05:35:03Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:38:21Z segmond joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:40:05Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:41:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:41:53Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:43:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:46:52Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:52:07Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:52:33Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T05:54:31Z kark joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:56:27Z pootler joined #lisp 2018-04-11T05:58:04Z pootler quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-11T06:05:13Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:08:31Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:11:35Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:12:03Z eSVG quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T06:15:01Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:15:34Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:16:14Z xiangsheng joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:19:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:20:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T06:20:48Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:21:42Z okflo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:25:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:32:22Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T06:34:14Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:34:28Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:34:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:37:37Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:39:22Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:41:10Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:42:58Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:45:07Z panji quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-11T06:45:58Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-11T06:47:33Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:48:19Z xiangsheng1 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:49:38Z xiangsheng quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:51:57Z try joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:52:21Z try is now known as Guest66957 2018-04-11T06:54:03Z xiangsheng1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:54:58Z try____ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T06:55:07Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:56:24Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-11T06:57:34Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:02:37Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-11T07:03:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:03:24Z Guest66957 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:09:06Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:13:39Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:14:17Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:16:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:18:01Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:18:35Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:19:01Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T07:20:02Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:20:11Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:20:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:23:00Z try___ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:23:40Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T07:24:50Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:25:42Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:26:25Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:26:30Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:26:32Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:28:08Z Cymew_ quit 2018-04-11T07:28:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:29:33Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:30:11Z loke: I need a sparse bit array in CL 2018-04-11T07:30:16Z loke: Is there a good library I can use? 2018-04-11T07:30:28Z vaporatorius quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-11T07:31:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:31:25Z beach: I doubt it. 2018-04-11T07:31:32Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:31:51Z loke: pkuhong apparently wrote on in 2008, but there is no source code: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/sparse_array.html 2018-04-11T07:31:57Z beach: How sparse is it? What's the biggest index? 2018-04-11T07:32:09Z beach: What are the operations you need? 2018-04-11T07:32:23Z loke: beach: Basically, I need to keep track of which glyphs have ben rendered in my rendercache, so it's a bit array of up to 2^20 bits 2018-04-11T07:32:29Z loke: Just set and check 2018-04-11T07:33:12Z froggey joined #lisp 2018-04-11T07:33:17Z loke: I guess I could just use a bitvector. It'll be 4kB data per font/size combination 2018-04-11T07:33:25Z beach: yeah, it's not that big. 2018-04-11T07:33:42Z loke: I'll do that for now 2018-04-11T07:34:03Z loke: In most cases, it'll be rare to have more than a couple of hundred bits set 2018-04-11T07:34:03Z beach: Otherwise, a hash table. 2018-04-11T07:34:14Z loke: Yes, indeed. 2018-04-11T07:34:15Z beach: Oh, then a hash table is better. 2018-04-11T07:34:22Z loke: OK, I'll do that 2018-04-11T07:34:38Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T07:34:49Z beach: It has the additional advantage of its size being proportional to the number of glyphs rendered. 2018-04-11T07:35:00Z loke: Right 2018-04-11T07:35:33Z White_Flame: if you're worried about space, encoding ranges of glyps that have been rendered might be useful 2018-04-11T07:35:54Z loke: That's what I would have hoped a decent sparse bitarray implementation would do for me :-) 2018-04-11T07:36:04Z White_Flame: indexing that is left as an exercise to the user ;) 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if you remain within the lambda calculus variant you are using, the encoded number _is_ the number for all practical purposes 2018-04-11T11:02:46Z TMA: johnnymacs: if you are willing to sidestep it (for example by introducing some alternative encoding of integers or some additional primitives) you have not described the approach sufficiently 2018-04-11T11:03:20Z u0_a183: i think johnnymacs is trying to impliment church encoding or similar 2018-04-11T11:03:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:03:30Z phoe: I assume he has some sort of encoded object and he wants to convert it to something that's human-readable. 2018-04-11T11:03:57Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:04:31Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:04:54Z u0_a183: have you seen the ebook for zenlisp (actually a scheme variant), he impliments bignums using symbol strings of numerals lol 2018-04-11T11:05:05Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T11:06:47Z ferada left #lisp 2018-04-11T11:08:19Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:08:47Z johnnymacs: Well my understanding is that in the church encoding zero is a function that takes two arguments and returns the second one 2018-04-11T11:09:23Z johnnymacs: so what I can do is sort of count down by taking my zero function and passing the int 0 into the second argument and see if it returns 0 2018-04-11T11:10:53Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:11:33Z johnnymacs: if it returns a function then I know I didn't reach zero yet 2018-04-11T11:12:14Z u0_a183: practical computing systems have something close to an integer built in, but we could try list length based encoding... 2018-04-11T11:12:51Z loke: In church numerals, the integer zero can be represented by the identity function. 2018-04-11T11:13:17Z loke: Or a function that reurls itself, perhaps. 2018-04-11T11:14:07Z u0_a183: lambda calculus wizardry is used in optimizations and gets more abstract than i understand... 2018-04-11T11:17:09Z dpg joined 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(n) (null (cdr (n)))) 2018-04-11T11:28:05Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:29:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:30:09Z theemacsshibe[m]: (loop for x from 0 for f = (funcall f x) when (numberp f) return x) could work if I remember loop correctly. 2018-04-11T11:32:35Z u0_a183: (defun add-one (n) (cons 'dummy-symbol n)) ;; need to quote arg or make dummy-symbol a list identity function 2018-04-11T11:33:19Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:34:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:35:08Z u0_a183: there should be a test to tell if list is a valid number before doing arithmatic on it... 2018-04-11T11:38:49Z u0_a183: direct lambda calculus is going to be all defmacros to prevent arguement evaluations isn't it? :/ 2018-04-11T11:39:22Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:39:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T11:40:04Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:40:27Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T11:40:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: numberp is your test. 2018-04-11T11:40:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: (numberp 5) => T 2018-04-11T11:40:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: (numberp 'windmill) => NIL 2018-04-11T11:43:40Z u0_a183: (defmacro I (x) x) (defconstant Z '(I nil)) (defmacro zero? 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I am dealing with SDL2, and there you have window and a renderer. They are tied together (a renderer uses a specific window), and you need to provide renderer when creating a texture and when drawing it. So I either have to pass renderer each time I create new texture, or use alternative solution. 2018-04-11T12:15:59Z phoe: malice: how do you pass the renderer? 2018-04-11T12:16:01Z malice: I could make all of these belong to some base class (sdl-config-class) that would contain all this information as :class allocated slots. I could also define some macro (with-renderer) that would make *renderer* special variable. 2018-04-11T12:16:09Z malice: But both of these have some problems I don't like 2018-04-11T12:16:37Z malice: phoe: I have some texture-loader object that gets the renderer upon creation 2018-04-11T12:17:00Z malice: It is responsible for loading the textures (so it uses renderer to load them). This is the cleanest solution I've found so far. 2018-04-11T12:17:17Z malice: Though this way if I want to load a texture, I have to pass a texture-loader to loading function 2018-04-11T12:17:25Z malice: though it gives me memoization 2018-04-11T12:17:29Z phoe: put the renderer in the texture-loader's slot? 2018-04-11T12:17:36Z malice: Yes, that's what I did. 2018-04-11T12:17:47Z phoe: then (load-texture loader texture) can internally use the slot-value 2018-04-11T12:18:07Z malice: But it's almost the same. Now I'm passing loader instead of renderer. 2018-04-11T12:18:15Z phoe: hah 2018-04-11T12:18:17Z malice: I also get memoization "for free", without passing anything bonus, but still 2018-04-11T12:18:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T12:18:41Z malice: hmm 2018-04-11T12:18:43Z phoe: why not a special variable? 2018-04-11T12:18:57Z malice: Well, hard to test. 2018-04-11T12:19:18Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:19:19Z phoe: no, why? 2018-04-11T12:19:35Z phoe: simply be sure to only bind that variable in one place in your code and make sure it never gets rebound. 2018-04-11T12:19:53Z phoe: optionally create a (with-renderer (...) ...) macro that abstracts this away from you 2018-04-11T12:20:22Z phoe: then you can go (defun test-stuff () (with-renderer (renderer (make-renderer)) (frobnicate renderer))) 2018-04-11T12:20:41Z phoe: or even, since it's a special var now 2018-04-11T12:20:54Z phoe: (defun test-stuff () (with-renderer (frobnicate))) 2018-04-11T12:21:20Z malice: Hmm. 2018-04-11T12:22:12Z malice: I'm trying to proceed with caution when doing that. I feel uneasy when dealing with special variables. 2018-04-11T12:22:44Z malice: I get a feeling they make things harder to debug and the implicit information might make some bugs hard to find 2018-04-11T12:22:48Z malice: But maybe I'm overreacting 2018-04-11T12:23:10Z malice: Also that would mean *renderer* is a banned name now 2018-04-11T12:23:16Z malice: (or something similar) 2018-04-11T12:23:21Z phoe: malice: not banned, simply bound. 2018-04-11T12:23:45Z phoe: if your code starts binding *renderer* somewhere else, it would most likely mean bad code design for me 2018-04-11T12:24:25Z phoe: when you deal with magical singleton global objects like that, special variables are often the way in Lisp 2018-04-11T12:24:38Z phoe: but since it's SDL2, you could possibly ask #lispgames how they deal with that issue 2018-04-11T12:24:55Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T12:24:56Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:25:02Z malice: I could also try to utilize closures 2018-04-11T12:25:12Z phoe: and have EVEN harder debuggability. 2018-04-11T12:25:19Z malice: are they? 2018-04-11T12:25:27Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:25:29Z phoe: you can easily inspect special variables when they're on the stack. with closures, you tend to have more issues. 2018-04-11T12:25:40Z flazh1 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:25:41Z phoe: since the variables are hidden, and often lexical. 2018-04-11T12:26:24Z White_Flame: I've had to deal with lots of these issues. If you have a context object that every function in a chain needs to know about, that's really what special variables are for 2018-04-11T12:26:46Z White_Flame: and it's nice and threadsafe (for as much as that matters with SDL) 2018-04-11T12:26:46Z phoe: after you go (let ((x (make-secret-object))) (lambda () (poke x)) then you will no longer be able to refer to the value of the variable X. 2018-04-11T12:26:55Z phoe: White_Flame: oi 2018-04-11T12:26:57Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-11T12:27:05Z phoe: with threads you need to make sure that their initial special bindings are specified. 2018-04-11T12:27:17Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T12:27:20Z phoe: #'BT:MAKE-THREAD has a keyword argument exactly for that 2018-04-11T12:27:47Z malice: I see. So it's either passing the loader or using a special variable, it seems. 2018-04-11T12:27:53Z Rovanion left #lisp 2018-04-11T12:27:58Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T12:28:19Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T12:28:23Z phoe: well, either you pass it explicitly as an argument or implicitly as a special var 2018-04-11T12:28:28Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:28:36Z phoe: you have to pass it *somehow* but you won't magically make it go away altogether. 2018-04-11T12:29:06Z phoe: using special vars in this case is merely a way to reduce verbosity in your code so you don't pass the loader *everywhere* but only mention it whenever you need to actually use it. 2018-04-11T12:29:11Z White_Flame: sure you can, just hardcode it ;) 2018-04-11T12:29:46Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-11T12:31:24Z malice: Reducing verbosity was one of my goals, but I will have to think if it's worth it. 2018-04-11T12:31:32Z malice: Thank both of you for help :) 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makomo: well it sure would come in handy 2018-04-11T16:44:17Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T16:45:05Z pierpa never felt the need 2018-04-11T16:45:05Z makomo: for example, i have multiple for clauses of which the first one is an actual "counting" variable with the rest are just "helper" variables 2018-04-11T16:45:17Z makomo: if one of these helper variables is nil for example, i would like to skip the current iteration 2018-04-11T16:45:22Z makomo: what would good alternatives be 2018-04-11T16:45:41Z Bike: conditions 2018-04-11T16:45:49Z Bike: unless helper ...more clauses... 2018-04-11T16:46:00Z makomo: yup, that's the problem 2018-04-11T16:46:01Z Bike: or rather unless (null helper) 2018-04-11T16:46:12Z makomo: oh wait, i misinterpreted that 2018-04-11T16:46:14Z Shinmera: Bike: or rather when helper 2018-04-11T16:46:48Z makomo: yes, but i get an error saying that :for is not a valid clause that can follow a :when 2018-04-11T16:46:53Z makomo: this :for helper is inbetween other :fors 2018-04-11T16:47:07Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-11T16:47:18Z makomo: some of the helpers further below depend on the helpers above 2018-04-11T16:47:27Z makomo: if one of the above is nil, i want to bail immediately 2018-04-11T16:48:24Z Shinmera: How about something like (loop for thingy = (let* (.. other fors ..) ..) when thingy count thingy) 2018-04-11T16:48:29Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T16:48:35Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T16:48:53Z makomo: well that's something i was trying to avoid, because it always looks so horrible 2018-04-11T16:48:58Z makomo: and gets indented so horribly also 2018-04-11T16:49:02Z nirved: iterate has next-iteration 2018-04-11T16:49:20Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-11T16:51:12Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T16:52:51Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T16:54:05Z makomo: Shinmera: also, that wouldn't allow me to use those other helpers later on in the body of :when 2018-04-11T16:54:28Z Shinmera: well the point is that you don't need to 2018-04-11T16:54:38Z Shinmera: since the let block does all the actual work 2018-04-11T16:55:01Z makomo: yes, but these helpers are helpers for the body, not just for the initialization of these others :fors 2018-04-11T16:55:06Z makomo: i would like to use all of these variables in the body 2018-04-11T16:55:09Z makomo: reuse some results, etc. 2018-04-11T16:56:10Z makomo: but it's not even related to reusage, rather just to usage 2018-04-11T16:56:22Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-11T16:56:35Z makomo: A depends on B, but if B is nil i want to bail. if it isn't, calculate A and then use A in the body 2018-04-11T16:57:07Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T16:57:50Z Shinmera: Maybe just not using LOOP's features aside from an infinite loop in the first place would be better, given that I get the feeling whatever you're doing is going to be a mess no matter what. 2018-04-11T16:59:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host 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mentions that you can use keyword symbols, but that doesn't seem to work? 2018-04-11T19:16:37Z makomo: the other alternative is prefixing all of the clause keywords with "iterate:" which is messy 2018-04-11T19:16:49Z makomo: am i missing something or? 2018-04-11T19:17:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:17:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:17:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:19:03Z phoe: makomo: yes, use the package 2018-04-11T19:20:11Z makomo: phoe: hm ok i guess, but then what does this mean https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate.html#Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate 2018-04-11T19:20:17Z makomo: "Almost all clauses use the syntax of function keyword-argument lists: alternating keywords and arguments. iterate keywords don't require a preceding colon, but you can use one if you like." 2018-04-11T19:20:43Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T19:21:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:21:11Z serviteur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:21:24Z makomo: using a colon implies using keyword symbols, but that doesn't seem to work. am i reading that wrong? 2018-04-11T19:23:18Z phoe: it does not seem to work for me either 2018-04-11T19:23:19Z phoe: hm 2018-04-11T19:23:45Z phoe: (iter (for i :in '(1 2 3 4 5)) (sum i)) works 2018-04-11T19:23:49Z phoe: but :for or :sum does not 2018-04-11T19:25:23Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:25:45Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:25:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:27:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:29:18Z makomo: yeah, that's why i'm not sure what that line is supposed to mean 2018-04-11T19:29:18Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:29:24Z makomo: maybe it was referring to everything but the first keyword 2018-04-11T19:32:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:33:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:33:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:33:30Z mhitchman[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:33:40Z sjl: The first symbol must be the non-keyword symbol. The rest can be keywords if you prefer 2018-04-11T19:34:18Z makomo: i see 2018-04-11T19:34:25Z sjl: makomo: and yeah it's intended that you :use the package. It should work if you don't, but it'll be a bit ugly. 2018-04-11T19:34:50Z sjl: or just import the specific symbols you want, but that's also annoying to have to do. I generally just use it. 2018-04-11T19:35:17Z makomo: yeah, true 2018-04-11T19:37:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:38:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:39:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:39:25Z pierpa_: they're using "keyword" as a normal English word, not in the technical sense of a CL keyword. 2018-04-11T19:39:44Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:40:25Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:43:22Z pierpa_: this works: (iter (for i :below 10) (print i)) this doesn't: (iter (:for i below 10) (print i)) 2018-04-11T19:43:29Z makomo: yes, that i understood, but then they go on to mention colons explictily 2018-04-11T19:43:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:43:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:44:09Z makomo: but i guess the proper term for the first "keyword" would be a "clause"? 2018-04-11T19:44:12Z pierpa_: perhaps there's a mistake in the don't loop iterate. Or perhaps they changed it after that paper was written 2018-04-11T19:44:13Z makomo: and then the rest are "keywords" 2018-04-11T19:44:49Z pierpa_: keywords, as in, in C if else switch are keywords 2018-04-11T19:45:18Z pierpa_: in the sense they're syntax 2018-04-11T19:46:13Z makomo: yup 2018-04-11T19:47:26Z pierpa_ is now known as pierpa 2018-04-11T19:48:20Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:48:36Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:50:31Z okflo` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:51:21Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:53:15Z Folkol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-11T19:53:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:54:30Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-11T19:56:16Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T19:59:14Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-11T20:02:08Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:04:18Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:04:47Z Josh_2: Evening all. So I have a large string and I want to find emails(other stuff later) is regex the best way? 2018-04-11T20:05:37Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:11:20Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:11:30Z dim: regexp are meant to define a "language" that you can "parse" 2018-04-11T20:11:42Z dim: they offer a very general tooling, but quite poor at times 2018-04-11T20:11:57Z dim: so, I guess the answer to your question, Josh_2, is “it depends” 2018-04-11T20:17:12Z Josh_2: Well I want to parse a webpage and extract information from it 2018-04-11T20:17:18Z Josh_2: lots and lots of webpages 2018-04-11T20:17:40Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:17:52Z Josh_2: Lots of simultaneous scanning 2018-04-11T20:17:56Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T20:17:58Z cess11_: libxml2 is probably a good start, then. 2018-04-11T20:18:17Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:18:34Z cess11_: task.h, and then some CL FFI. 2018-04-11T20:19:00Z Josh_2: I don't have time to teach myself FFI 2018-04-11T20:20:09Z cess11_: What do you have time for? 2018-04-11T20:20:30Z shaftoe_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:20:44Z jmercouris: I disagree libxml2 is not a good way to start 2018-04-11T20:20:59Z jmercouris: that is a preposterous notion that one needs to implement a CFFI interface to do some XML parsing 2018-04-11T20:21:12Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:21:12Z jmercouris: Shinmera has written a library for this task, can't remember the name right now 2018-04-11T20:21:13Z tfb_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:21:27Z tobel_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:21:29Z jmercouris: you can retrieve particular elements by a "jquery like" interface 2018-04-11T20:21:29Z cess11_: Not some, lots and lots of it and in parallell. 2018-04-11T20:21:37Z trig-ger_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:21:53Z Shinmera: Plump for parsing, and lQuery for traversing. It's not as fast as libxml2, though. 2018-04-11T20:21:53Z cess11_: An l too much, I think. But yes, it was only half serious. 2018-04-11T20:22:45Z Blkt_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:22:47Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:22:48Z ChanServ has set mode +o lacedaemon 2018-04-11T20:23:01Z Meow-J__ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:23:42Z jmercouris: Josh_2: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery and https://github.com/Shinmera/plump 2018-04-11T20:23:54Z cpt_nemo_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:23:55Z Josh_2: Am looking at plump right now :) 2018-04-11T20:24:05Z jmercouris: if you want to do regex there is also cl:ppcre and others 2018-04-11T20:24:06Z Methos_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:24:12Z Misha_B quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:24:21Z Josh_2: I have been playing with ppcre. Thanks :) 2018-04-11T20:24:36Z Josh_2: Seems really fast at extracting all the emails from a single page 2018-04-11T20:24:37Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:24:49Z jmercouris: regex + email is a tricky tricky combination 2018-04-11T20:24:56Z Josh_2: Yes 2018-04-11T20:24:57Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:25:52Z Josh_2: 0.034 seconds to parse a page with 182333 characters 2018-04-11T20:26:47Z Josh_2: The saying is something like worry about speed afterwards :P 2018-04-11T20:26:53Z cess11_: It is common that there is other valuable information close to email addresses, I would probably use something more flexible for such a use case unless some regexp hack someone else wrote is enough and all I needed was the addresses. 2018-04-11T20:27:49Z cess11_: E.g. name, title, phone. 2018-04-11T20:27:52Z z3t0_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:27:58Z Shinmera: Technical matters aside I'm not sure I can imagine any use case where the scraping of email addresses from thousands and thousands of pages would not be with the intention of nefarious purposes. 2018-04-11T20:28:25Z spaceplu- joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:28:31Z equalunique[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:31Z jasom quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z kumori[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z jach[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z z3t0 quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z obi-cons-cdrobi quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z danlentz quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z kjeldahl quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z tfb quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z Meow-J_ quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z tobel quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z trig-ger quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z stux|RC-- quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z shaftoe quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z spacepluk quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z fe[nl]ix quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z Blkt quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:32Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-11T20:28:35Z Josh_2: Well It's just some generic information I want to take and I thought why not take emails ya know 2018-04-11T20:28:36Z tfb_ is now known as tfb 2018-04-11T20:28:38Z spaceplu- is now known as spacepluk 2018-04-11T20:28:38Z tobel_ is now known as tobel 2018-04-11T20:28:46Z cess11_: Marketing of socks targeted at oil and gas executives. 2018-04-11T20:28:46Z danlentz_ is now known as danlentz 2018-04-11T20:29:07Z jasom joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:29:10Z Josh_2: I gotta extract hyperlinks as well 2018-04-11T20:29:33Z cess11_: Because it might be illegal to keep them, but I'm sure you're keeping track of that. 2018-04-11T20:30:20Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:30:45Z gabot joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:30:45Z Josh_2: I had no plans on keeping anything 2018-04-11T20:31:37Z jach[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:32:00Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:32:22Z kumori[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:32:29Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:32:43Z Josh_2: I don't have to take emails but I have to scan for some sort of information 2018-04-11T20:33:12Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:34:42Z jmercouris: Shinmera: there are lots of research use cases 2018-04-11T20:34:58Z pierpa: Sorry folks, while I try to not be offensive, the fact that to extract email addresses from a string one needs to interface to something thru the FFI is ludicrous. Couldn't resist. 2018-04-11T20:36:00Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:36:35Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:37:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:37:35Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:38:53Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:39:36Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:39:39Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T20:40:51Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:42:44Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:42:55Z LdBeth: pierpa: I don’t think using FFI is a bad idea unless the intention is writing portable libraries. 2018-04-11T20:44:07Z LdBeth: Why bother yourself if life could be easier 2018-04-11T20:44:09Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T20:48:52Z Josh_2: With bordeaux-threads evaluating (make-thread (lambda () )) runs the thread? 2018-04-11T20:49:09Z Josh_2: I used SBCL's built in threading library last time I did anything with threads 2018-04-11T20:49:41Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-11T20:49:41Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:50:26Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:51:32Z Josh_2: wait maybe I need join-thread 2018-04-11T20:52:36Z Josh_2: Okay that did it 2018-04-11T20:53:00Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T20:53:50Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:54:03Z pierpa: LdBeth: really, you think searching for patterns in a string is a task which can't be done well in CL? I'm speechless. 2018-04-11T20:54:53Z pierpa: and it's not like they have to write any code, there's plenty of already written code for this. 2018-04-11T20:55:05Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T20:55:27Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T20:56:31Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T20:58:10Z LdBeth: pierpa: get things work is the priority. If someone is more familiar with C libs, at least it can be used as a placeholder 2018-04-11T20:59:43Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:00:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:00:26Z LdBeth: We are not pretty print codes on texbooks, bro 2018-04-11T21:00:40Z fikka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T21:00:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:01:32Z pierpa: IF they're more familiar with C libs, IF they're familiar with the FFI. Two big IFs 2018-04-11T21:01:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:02:00Z pierpa: and I'd add IF they have lot of time to wste :) 2018-04-11T21:02:10Z pierpa: *waste 2018-04-11T21:02:31Z Josh_2: I'm not familiar with either 2018-04-11T21:02:39Z pierpa: so! :) 2018-04-11T21:03:05Z Josh_2: Don't have time to waste either 2018-04-11T21:03:19Z pierpa: then do the thing in CL 2018-04-11T21:03:31Z Josh_2: I am :) 2018-04-11T21:03:36Z LdBeth: So CL-PPCRE 2018-04-11T21:03:39Z k-hos: 'do the thing' words to live by 2018-04-11T21:03:39Z pierpa: :) 2018-04-11T21:03:44Z Josh_2: DO THE THING! 2018-04-11T21:04:23Z Josh_2: am using CL-PPCRE just gotta find a really good regex, I found one that gets emails but it has a lot of false positives 2018-04-11T21:04:33Z LdBeth: I don’t believe learning PCRE would cost more than 1 hour 2018-04-11T21:06:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:06:49Z LdBeth at least for me learning FFI is a lot easier than writing a YAML parser in CL 2018-04-11T21:07:15Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:08:42Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T21:08:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:09:25Z jmercouris: LdBeth: who said anything about YAML? 2018-04-11T21:10:53Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-11T21:11:41Z jackdaniel: next configuration format I create will be named YAWN, and it will be made of good old sexp's 2018-04-11T21:12:24Z dim: I like the idea that the best configuration format is actually a programming language, as in Emacs for instance 2018-04-11T21:12:40Z dim: that said sometimes you want to avoid frigthning the users 2018-04-11T21:13:01Z dim: (frigthening?) 2018-04-11T21:13:22Z LdBeth: jmercouris: Me. I need a YAML emitter can produce block style, but existed cl-yaml is more like a JSON lib 2018-04-11T21:13:28Z scymtym: LdBeth: you wouldn't have to, though. https://github.com/scymtym/language.yaml/tree/future is already usable in a pinch 2018-04-11T21:13:53Z jmercouris: dim: Frightening* 2018-04-11T21:13:54Z scymtym: mostly for parsing atm 2018-04-11T21:14:57Z dim: jmercouris: thx! 2018-04-11T21:15:08Z LdBeth: Which can only produce flow style YAML 2018-04-11T21:15:39Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:15:45Z jmercouris: LdBeth: I am just struggling to make the connection between PCRE learn time and writing a YAML lib, seems like a complete non sequitur 2018-04-11T21:16:25Z jmercouris: dim: np 2018-04-11T21:18:33Z LdBeth: jmercouris: that’s an analogy to parse string in CL with FFI libs 2018-04-11T21:22:03Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:23:45Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:28:30Z u0_a183 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-11T21:30:25Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T21:30:43Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:30:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:31:11Z Josh_2: Shinmera: can Plump be used to pull all href tags? 2018-04-11T21:33:11Z Shinmera: (lquery:$ (initialize doc) "[href]" (attr :href)) 2018-04-11T21:35:57Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:37:30Z Josh_2: O snap that's ezpz 2018-04-11T21:37:47Z Josh_2: Thanks Shinmera :) 2018-04-11T21:38:12Z arbv joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:39:01Z Josh_2: Nice and fast as well 2018-04-11T21:39:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:47:39Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:49:20Z ophan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T21:50:54Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-11T21:50:56Z anonchik joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:51:14Z anonchik quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-11T21:51:22Z anonchik joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:51:57Z anonchik quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-11T21:52:35Z anonchik joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:52:41Z anonchik quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-11T21:55:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:58:42Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-11T21:58:43Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-11T21:58:43Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:00:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:01:45Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:02:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:05:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:06:49Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2018-04-11T22:08:51Z k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-11T22:09:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T22:13:37Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:14:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:17:09Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:18:55Z obi-cons-cdrobi joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:22:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:24:05Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:24:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:25:30Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:27:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T22:28:52Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:32:55Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:40:34Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:41:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-11T22:41:39Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:43:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:45:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:47:56Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:48:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:48:35Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:50:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:51:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:52:16Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:53:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:53:23Z Josh_2: The timeout keyword argument to Drakmas http-request doesn't seem to be doing anything, I have it set to 1. What's the easiest way to just ignore the error and continue 2018-04-11T22:54:22Z broccolistem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-11T22:56:20Z Josh_2: hmm I've actually got to return some value if I get an error 2018-04-11T22:56:32Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-11T22:56:47Z theemacsshibe[m]: anyone know of any jobs i can get involving lisp? 2018-04-11T22:57:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: preferably in melbourne australia if there's a physical location involved 2018-04-11T22:57:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T22:59:24Z ghostyyy joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:00:49Z bjorkintosh: theemacsshibe[m], you could work for yourself! 2018-04-11T23:00:56Z ghostyy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-11T23:01:25Z k-hos: pay yourself 2018-04-11T23:01:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: i don't know what to make 2018-04-11T23:01:33Z k-hos: eventually fire yourself 2018-04-11T23:01:57Z bjorkintosh: i don't know what to make 2018-04-11T23:01:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: interesting 2018-04-11T23:02:04Z bjorkintosh: perhaps that's the first question to answer. 2018-04-11T23:02:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:02:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: that is true 2018-04-11T23:02:43Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-11T23:02:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: can i give myself wage cuts k-hos ? 2018-04-11T23:03:01Z bjorkintosh: ask not what lisp can do for you, ask what you can do at all with or without lisp! 2018-04-11T23:06:25Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: do you want to learn lisp for a job or do you know lisp and can do stuff and want to do stuff for pay? 2018-04-11T23:06:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: the latter 2018-04-11T23:08:26Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: do you have lisp stuff you can show off to potential employers? 2018-04-11T23:08:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: i wrote a CL ECDSA package, does that count? 2018-04-11T23:09:18Z Xach: I don't know, sorry. 2018-04-11T23:09:42Z theemacsshibe[m]: cause there wasn't one so i wrote my own, porting a python package 2018-04-11T23:09:52Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:10:20Z bjorkintosh: theemacsshibe[m], become a consultant. convince locals with money that you have the perfect mouse trap for their mouse problem! 2018-04-11T23:10:29Z LdBeth: Or how to persuade someone to adopt Lisp 2018-04-11T23:10:48Z bjorkintosh: it's not a terribly easy problem to solve mind you. 2018-04-11T23:10:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: "you know python? lisp is like python but it doesn't suck!" 2018-04-11T23:11:20Z Josh_2: shweeeeeet managed to bypass this stupid error Q_Q 2018-04-11T23:11:27Z Patzy joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:11:38Z Josh_2: Would be nice if :connection-timeout worked tho 2018-04-11T23:11:56Z bjorkintosh: people don't have X-language problems. they have real-world problems they need solved. 2018-04-11T23:11:56Z LdBeth: Even Paul Graham started from his own business 2018-04-11T23:12:06Z bjorkintosh: doesn't matter HOW, really. 2018-04-11T23:12:19Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:12:22Z Josh_2: just gotta show them that lisp solved problems better than everything else :) 2018-04-11T23:12:52Z bjorkintosh: theemacsshibe[m], your problem isn't lisp at that point. it's selling solutions. 2018-04-11T23:13:10Z pillton joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:13:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: that is true 2018-04-11T23:13:30Z LdBeth: Josh_2: IGNORE-ERRORS? 2018-04-11T23:13:30Z bjorkintosh: I recommend 'better off ted' and 'house of lies' for a rapid intro to biz-speak. 2018-04-11T23:13:47Z Josh_2: aww cmon 2018-04-11T23:14:02Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:14:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:16:37Z cmatei joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:17:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:17:33Z Josh_2: Just got a "Unexpected Value #x20 in UTF-8 sequence" which is a Flexi-streams error, not really sure how to deal with that 2018-04-11T23:17:51Z Josh_2: Trying to download a webpage with http-request 2018-04-11T23:18:42Z Josh_2: Am getting really frustrated Q_Q 2018-04-11T23:22:57Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:23:41Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:24:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:25:06Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-11T23:25:16Z antoszka: Josh_2: Perhaps the HTTP body is not [properly] UTF-8 encoded and you need take that into account? Tried curling that URL and analyzing the data? 2018-04-11T23:25:20Z lyding quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-11T23:26:16Z Josh_2: Well if it is going to be a repeat issue then I need to deal with the error 2018-04-11T23:26:24Z Josh_2: but for the life of me I can't understand CL error handling 2018-04-11T23:26:36Z bjorkintosh: (yet) 2018-04-11T23:27:07Z Josh_2: https://pastebin.com/kwxdCRyx 2018-04-11T23:29:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-11T23:29:32Z pillton: You are not handling the error. 2018-04-11T23:32:59Z pillton: Josh_2: Chapter 19 of PCL is a good introduction to conditions. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 2018-04-11T23:33:14Z Josh_2: I've read it but I'll read it again 2018-04-11T23:33:56Z pillton: The error that is being signalled is not of class usocket:ns-try-again-condition. 2018-04-11T23:34:39Z Josh_2: Nope, but that is required to handle an error that I get because one of the sites being accessed is down 2018-04-11T23:34:58Z Josh_2: So I need both 2018-04-11T23:35:10Z pillton: clhs handler-case 2018-04-11T23:35:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 2018-04-11T23:35:26Z pillton: handler-case can match more than one condition. 2018-04-11T23:35:46Z Josh_2: Darn, I put it in a progn and that didn't work 2018-04-11T23:35:50Z Josh_2: I don't even need the progn 2018-04-11T23:35:58Z pillton: Stop guessing. 2018-04-11T23:38:09Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-11T23:38:46Z Josh_2: so many errors Q_Q 2018-04-11T23:40:18Z theemacsshibe[m]: if you want to skip anything bad you could make a handler case for `condition` 2018-04-11T23:40:20Z pillton: All errors are subclasses of error. 2018-04-11T23:40:31Z pillton: There is even ignore-errors. 2018-04-11T23:40:34Z pillton: clhs ignore-errors 2018-04-11T23:40:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm 2018-04-11T23:41:09Z pillton: All conditions are subclasses of condition. 2018-04-11T23:41:14Z pillton: clhs condition 2018-04-11T23:41:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm 2018-04-11T23:41:17Z pillton: clhs error 2018-04-11T23:41:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm 2018-04-11T23:41:53Z Josh_2: well I still need to return some sort of value to show an error 2018-04-11T23:42:06Z Josh_2: It finally worked! 2018-04-11T23:42:53Z pillton: (ignore-errors (error "Hey")) => (values nil # (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (lambda (c) (b (c a))))) 2018-04-13T04:47:17Z fourier` joined #lisp 2018-04-13T04:49:13Z ldb: currying 2018-04-13T04:50:10Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T04:54:53Z fourier` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T04:56:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T04:57:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:00:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:05:22Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:06:22Z emaczen joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:06:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:09:05Z White_Flame: is there any name or notion for currying that can happen in any order? it always seems difficult to me to use currying, because it's not guaranteed which of the parameters I'd want to predefine 2018-04-13T05:10:04Z lagagain joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:10:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:11:25Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:14:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:16:20Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:16:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:18:58Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:21:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:24:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:26:29Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:28:19Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:28:27Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:31:08Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T05:31:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:32:06Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:33:35Z yoel_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:33:38Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'd call it stir fry 2018-04-13T05:33:45Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:33:57Z phoe: White_Flame: how would you even do that? 2018-04-13T05:34:13Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:35:29Z theemacsshibe[m] sent a long message: theemacsshibe[m]_2018-04-13_05:35:29.txt 2018-04-13T05:36:25Z phoe: White_Flame: instead of multiple curries/rcurries, I use a straight up lambda call. 2018-04-13T05:36:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:36:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:37:10Z phoe: (lambda (a s d f g h j) (funcall a f s j d h g)) 2018-04-13T05:38:18Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T05:38:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:38:41Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T05:38:48Z chens joined #lisp 2018-04-13T05:40:21Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T05:42:01Z White_Flame: I mean, given (lambda (a b c) ..), maybe you want to set b first, then c, then a, or whatever, as separate steps 2018-04-13T05:42:23Z White_Flame: but yeah, if you (lambda (b c a) (funcall thing a b c)), then you can curry the outer per ordering you want I guess 2018-04-13T05:42:37Z vypr quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2018-04-13T05:42:57Z White_Flame: currying just seems awfully sequentially dependent to my eyes 2018-04-13T05:43:13Z phoe: if it's about setting then better do an explicit let* 2018-04-13T05:43:26Z phoe: because then a programmer will know that the order in which you bind these variables matters 2018-04-13T05:43:33Z epsyloN quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T05:43:38Z phoe: since LET* means more than a LET 2018-04-13T05:43:54Z White_Flame: "setting" as in holding on to a partially applied function, except choosing which parameter to apply first 2018-04-13T05:44:00Z makomo joined #lisp 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single function all of the time 2018-04-13T06:13:36Z johnnymacs: so when you start out with lambd calculus you can only hold one thing 2018-04-13T06:14:01Z johnnymacs: So if the current function is a list it can't really do anything else to be a list 2018-04-13T06:14:18Z johnnymacs: I need some combinators that will help me actually store multiple things at once and reference them 2018-04-13T06:14:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T06:15:07Z nbhauke joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:15:09Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:16:24Z nbhauke quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T06:17:18Z yoel_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:18:49Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:19:47Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-13T06:20:27Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T06:20:28Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-13T06:23:19Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:27:06Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:31:44Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-13T06:32:11Z Kundry_Wag 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#lisp 2018-04-13T09:36:59Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-13T09:36:59Z lyding quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T09:44:58Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T09:46:43Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T09:47:08Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T09:49:57Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T09:58:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T09:59:32Z kqr: TIL "dwim" is a term of lisp origins 2018-04-13T09:59:33Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:01:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:04:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:05:12Z lieven: interlisp IIRC 2018-04-13T10:05:26Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:09:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:09:52Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:10:35Z jcowan_: Yes indeed. I've watched it do its stuff on broken code 2018-04-13T10:11:07Z jcowan_: Eventually syntax extension was done by extending DWIM so that it would rewrite the new syntax into the old 2018-04-13T10:11:37Z lieven: neat 2018-04-13T10:17:53Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:24:22Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:24:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:27:55Z kami joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:28:00Z kami: Hello #lisp 2018-04-13T10:29:31Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-04-13T10:30:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:34:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:35:10Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:35:25Z phoe: hey kami 2018-04-13T10:35:35Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:35:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:38:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:40:18Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-13T10:40:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:42:31Z drunkencoder quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:45:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:47:47Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:48:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:49:02Z drunkencoder quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-13T10:49:45Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:50:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:54:17Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-13T10:55:17Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:55:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T10:56:25Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T10:57:05Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: Hey! I have a question. We have a protocol, a generic function (FROB FOO), a protocol class FOO, a concrete class STANDARD-FOO, and its subclass NONSTANDARD-FOO. Should a protocol be able to mandate "direct" participation in a protocol for subclasses of FOO? 2018-04-13T10:57:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-13T10:57:17Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-13T10:58:06Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: By "direct" participation, I mean - there has to be a (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) ...) and not merely a (defmethod frob ((foo standard-foo)) ...) 2018-04-13T10:58:06Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-13T10:59:53Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: This is meant to be used in cases where the protocol author requires that each of the participating classes specifies its own behavior and does not rely on its superclasses' methods. 2018-04-13T10:59:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-13T11:00:51Z phoe: minion: The more I think about this idea, the less sane it seems to me, because it seems silly to put arbitrary limits like this. If NONSTANDARD-FOO merely logs some information to standard output, then it would be pointless to (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) (call-next-method)). 2018-04-13T11:00:53Z minion: The more I think about this idea, the less sane it seems to me, because it seems silly to put arbitrary limits like this. If NONSTANDARD-FOO merely logs some information to standard output, then it would be pointless to (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) (call-next-method)): An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/The more I think about this idea, the less sane it seems to me, because it seems silly to put arbitrary lim 2018-04-13T11:01:00Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: The more I think about this idea, the less sane it seems to me, because it seems silly to put arbitrary limits like this. If NONSTANDARD-FOO merely logs some information to standard output, then it would be pointless to (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) (call-next-method)). 2018-04-13T11:01:00Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2018-04-13T11:04:20Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:04:34Z _death: yes, it's silly 2018-04-13T11:05:50Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:06:13Z _death: minion: minion: memo for minion: minion 2018-04-13T11:06:13Z minion: minion memo for minion minion: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/minion memo for minion minion?source" contains illegal character #\ at position 28.. 2018-04-13T11:06:34Z _death: (incf sanitization) 2018-04-13T11:07:52Z thblt: Not directly a common lisp question, but how would you implement a Lisp evaluator without any recursion (= without using the host language's recursion facilities)? I have a stack of pointers, so I was thinking of defining like 10 opcodes as invalid pointers and pushing them to the stack to determine the next operation. The eval loop would then start with something like " opcode = pop(); switch (opcode) {...". Is this a strange idea 2018-04-13T11:07:52Z thblt: or the usual way to go? Thanks! 2018-04-13T11:09:55Z thblt: FWIW, the WIP draft of the opcodes set is here: https://paste.thb.lt/1523617766.h.html 2018-04-13T11:12:02Z jackdaniel: thblt: you may see bytecode interpreter implemented in ECL source code src/c/interpreter.d 2018-04-13T11:12:13Z jackdaniel: which has code somewhat similar to what you describe 2018-04-13T11:12:57Z thblt: jackdaniel: thanks for the pointer, downloading the source 2018-04-13T11:14:21Z jackdaniel: sadly I won't be able to assist you further, I need to pack to Marbella 2018-04-13T11:14:37Z jackdaniel: we are departing today's evening and I have planty of things to do :) 2018-04-13T11:16:30Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:17:11Z _death: jackdaniel: same here ;) 2018-04-13T11:18:44Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:21:21Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:22:47Z sunset_NOVA quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:22:54Z phoe: I am packing, too 2018-04-13T11:23:03Z phoe: _death: thanks for the remark 2018-04-13T11:23:18Z phoe: _death: I actually have to ask, why do you have an underscore in the beginning of your nick? 2018-04-13T11:25:29Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:30:32Z _death: the underscoreless nick is taken 2018-04-13T11:31:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:33:23Z kark quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:34:24Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:37:04Z jdz: _death: by the guy with a scythe? 2018-04-13T11:38:56Z _death: he who rides binky 2018-04-13T11:42:24Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:44:00Z _death: I think I've been using "death" (used to be in caps) since 1998.. at least it's mine on some sites (github/reddit/hn) 2018-04-13T11:45:05Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:46:41Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:47:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T11:48:51Z cylb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T11:49:10Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-13T11:49:17Z cylb 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I have a question. We have a protocol, a generic function (FROB FOO), a protocol class FOO, a concrete class STANDARD-FOO, and its subclass NONSTANDARD-FOO. Should a protocol be able to mandate "direct" participation in a protocol for subclasses of FOO? 2018-04-13T14:02:29Z minion: beach, memo from phoe: By "direct" participation, I mean - there has to be a (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) ...) and not merely a (defmethod frob ((foo standard-foo)) ...) 2018-04-13T14:02:29Z minion: beach, memo from phoe: This is meant to be used in cases where the protocol author requires that each of the participating classes specifies its own behavior and does not rely on its superclasses' methods. 2018-04-13T14:02:29Z minion: beach, memo from phoe: The more I think about this idea, the less sane it seems to me, because it seems silly to put arbitrary limits like this. If NONSTANDARD-FOO merely logs some information to standard output, then it would be pointless to (defmethod frob ((foo nonstandard-foo)) (call-next-method)). 2018-04-13T14:02:41Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:02:45Z beach: jackdaniel: Still around? 2018-04-13T14:02:57Z jackdaniel: yes, packing 2018-04-13T14:03:07Z beach: jackdaniel: We have a reservation for a Flamenco restaurant on Wednesday night. 2018-04-13T14:03:15Z beach: I think they open at 20:00. 2018-04-13T14:03:22Z Josh_2 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T14:03:33Z jackdaniel: noted, thanks:) 2018-04-13T14:03:51Z beach: See you then. 2018-04-13T14:03:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:03:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:04:14Z jackdaniel: see you \o 2018-04-13T14:04:20Z pagnol is now known as msg 2018-04-13T14:04:26Z msg is now known as pagnol 2018-04-13T14:04:29Z pagnol is now known as msg 2018-04-13T14:04:33Z msg is now known as pagnol 2018-04-13T14:04:37Z pagnol is now known as msg 2018-04-13T14:04:53Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:05:02Z msg is now known as pagnol 2018-04-13T14:05:42Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:05:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:06:29Z cylb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T14:06:57Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:07:46Z phoe: I'll be back in Poland by Wednesday 20:00. 2018-04-13T14:08:01Z phoe: I arrive late Sunday and leave early Wednesday. 2018-04-13T14:08:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:09:10Z hh47 quit (Quit: hh47) 2018-04-13T14:09:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:10:40Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:13:53Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2018-04-13T14:14:03Z Shinmera: Speaking of ELS; for those not attending I recorded a practise run of my talk yesterday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od6WI7JIJcQ 2018-04-13T14:14:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:14:42Z beach: I would like to watch it, but on this dinky laptop with free video drivers, it might be too painful. 2018-04-13T14:14:57Z Shinmera: Well then just wait for the real deal on Tuesday :) 2018-04-13T14:16:14Z beach: I think I will, yes. Let's hope some others take the bait. 2018-04-13T14:17:17Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:18:21Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:20:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:20:39Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:24:22Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:26:27Z beach: I started working a bit on WSCL. It turns out, the chapter files of the dpANS are quite modular, and the main material is in include files. 2018-04-13T14:27:05Z beach: That should make it easier to just rewrite the chapter files, include them in a main LaTeX document, and just compile it. 2018-04-13T14:27:19Z mingus joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:27:29Z beach: The, as modifications become necessary, copy one file at a time. 2018-04-13T14:28:13Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:28:17Z beach: I am doing WSCL stuff because it can be done more easily on this dinky laptop than (say) Second Climacs development. 2018-04-13T14:29:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T14:29:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:32:57Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:33:35Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:34:16Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-13T14:34:31Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:34:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T14:34:48Z Kundry_Wag 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What is preventing you from attending? 2018-04-13T18:40:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-13T18:40:43Z nbhauke joined #lisp 2018-04-13T18:44:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T18:45:01Z easye: phoe: lost my credit card, need to work for Emotiq, plane tickets look pretty prohibitive at the moment. 2018-04-13T18:45:09Z easye: I am real sad about this. 2018-04-13T18:46:03Z phoe: Ouch. I see. I really wanted to see you at the conference. 2018-04-13T18:46:24Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-13T18:47:15Z phoe: Where would you need to fly from? 2018-04-13T18:51:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T18:57:04Z easye: Vienna. 2018-04-13T18:58:35Z ghard```` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T18:59:04Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:01:02Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:01:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:03:22Z reinaldo_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:07:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:11:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T19:15:32Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:18:29Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:22:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:22:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:24:14Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:27:51Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T19:27:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:33:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T19:33:10Z hh47 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:35:33Z hh47 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T19:35:48Z pierpa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:41:11Z ninegrid joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:43:15Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:51:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T19:58:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:00:49Z hh47 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:02:18Z hh47 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T20:03:27Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:04:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:05:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:05:03Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-13T20:07:18Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:08:44Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:10:05Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:10:45Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T20:11:04Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:11:04Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:11:07Z cage__ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:11:43Z cage__ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T20:12:06Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T20:12:10Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:12:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:12:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:13:25Z devon joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:14:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:15:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:19:55Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T20:19:56Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:20:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:21:04Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:22:33Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:25:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:30:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:32:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:44:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:46:56Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T20:47:08Z pierpa_ is now known as pierpa 2018-04-13T20:47:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:47:45Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:48:35Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-13T20:51:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T20:57:35Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T21:02:31Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:04:32Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:06:00Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T21:08:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T21:10:59Z druidie joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:11:53Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T21:13:12Z druidie quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T21:17:04Z cylb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T21:17:21Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T21:17:39Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:35:06Z fiAristide joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:35:32Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:37:27Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T21:40:11Z fiAristide quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T21:43:24Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T21:47:56Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Anywhere.) 2018-04-13T22:08:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-13T22:08:51Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T22:10:53Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:10:59Z Chream_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:12:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:12:44Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:14:32Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:15:05Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:20:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:22:40Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-13T22:30:17Z SuperJen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T22:30:23Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:31:40Z ophan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-13T22:34:34Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:34:38Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T22:37:45Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:38:42Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T22:39:58Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:40:38Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T22:41:14Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:42:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:43:40Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-13T22:45:01Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:48:43Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:48:54Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:49:15Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:49:37Z ruste: Question, how do I make asdf load a system from the current directory rather than from quicklisp? 2018-04-13T22:50:02Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:50:22Z ruste: Hopefully without having to mess with an asdf configuration file. 2018-04-13T22:50:32Z ruste: Surely there's a way to say "load it from here." 2018-04-13T22:50:41Z ruste: Or have it default to checking the current directory. 2018-04-13T22:52:38Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:53:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:56:57Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T22:57:03Z Bike: (push the-current-directory asdf:*central-registry*) is the dumb yet effective way 2018-04-13T22:57:17Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T22:57:19Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-13T22:57:24Z Bike: though if the system also exists elsewhere i don't know hwich has priority 2018-04-13T22:57:33Z Bike: i use quicklisp's local-projects for that 2018-04-13T22:58:49Z ruste: Yeah, it's looking like the system in the registry has priority. 2018-04-13T22:59:10Z ruste: I'd be curious to hear what their thinking was on that one. 2018-04-13T22:59:52Z ruste: I've tried clearing the source registry and using clear-system just to make sure. 2018-04-13T23:00:07Z ruste: It always re-loads from the registry rather than the current directory. 2018-04-13T23:01:47Z nimiux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T23:02:54Z Anthaas quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-13T23:03:12Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:03:14Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:03:43Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-13T23:03:44Z comborico1611 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-13T23:03:53Z LdBeth: The intention of ASDF is maintaining a directory of links to asd files 2018-04-13T23:04:09Z zaquest_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-13T23:04:29Z LdBeth: with some thing like a package manager 2018-04-13T23:04:31Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:04:37Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:05:52Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:06:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:09:40Z MrSleepy joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:10:55Z Anthaas quit (Changing host) 2018-04-13T23:10:55Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:12:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:16:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:18:13Z ruste: I thought it was mostly to keep track of and load files in the correct order. I figured the whole package manager thing was incedental. 2018-04-13T23:18:36Z ruste: Seems kind of strange not to have an option to load a system from a specific location without having it in the registry. 2018-04-13T23:19:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:20:49Z Bike: not incidental. 2018-04-13T23:21:30Z Bike: there's also load-asd, but again, probably not so much for overrides 2018-04-13T23:23:12Z Anthaas quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-13T23:23:29Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:26:09Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:27:04Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:30:16Z Anthaas quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-13T23:30:51Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:33:07Z ruste: Ah, that could be what I'm looking for. I ended up loading everything manually, but if it comes to it I'll try load-asd in the future 2018-04-13T23:34:24Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:34:27Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:34:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:35:05Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:35:51Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:41:46Z Chream_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:42:14Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:45:28Z wxie quit (Quit: Bye.) 2018-04-13T23:46:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:47:02Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-13T23:50:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:52:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:53:08Z nbhauke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-13T23:53:09Z comborico1611 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:53:27Z nbhauke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-13T23:53:27Z nbhauke_ is now known as nbhauke 2018-04-13T23:55:03Z Chream_ quit (Read error: 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joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:21:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:21:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T00:22:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:23:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:25:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:27:07Z verisimilitude: I wasn't aware there was a Lisp Discord, but I'm also not surprised. 2018-04-14T00:27:49Z verisimilitude: That's a nice quality of Lisp and, unfortunately, fewer and fewer languages, that there's no or little official anything. 2018-04-14T00:27:56Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:27:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:28:07Z verisimilitude: This is #lisp, but it's not ``the official Lisp IRC'' 2018-04-14T00:28:08Z verisimilitude: . 2018-04-14T00:28:29Z verisimilitude: The Lisp developers don't draw you to their official Lisp subreddit or official Lisp twitter account. 2018-04-14T00:28:33Z verisimilitude: It's nice. 2018-04-14T00:28:50Z verisimilitude: Meanwhile, the same can't be written for modern garbage. 2018-04-14T00:29:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:29:46Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:31:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:32:10Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:33:31Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:33:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:35:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:36:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:38:16Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi please join my elisp hand-compiled bytecode server discord.gg/NotRealGit 2018-04-14T00:38:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: >calling their groups "servers" 2018-04-14T00:40:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:41:11Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:41:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:41:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:41:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:42:33Z verisimilitude: They should call them ``someone else's servers''. 2018-04-14T00:42:47Z verisimilitude: >hi, please join my someone else's server 2018-04-14T00:43:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:46:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:46:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:49:31Z blurgh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T00:52:29Z blurgh joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:52:56Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T00:53:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:54:31Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:54:52Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:55:16Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:56:41Z comborico1611 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:57:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:58:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T00:58:46Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:59:13Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:59:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T00:59:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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It costs $400 to run for 12 days and runs at 1.2 gigahertz with 8 SPARC III cores. 2018-04-14T01:55:25Z theemacsshibe[m]: *does Discord user impression* 2018-04-14T01:55:26Z theemacsshibe[m]: I've got like five servers and I'm part of about 25 2018-04-14T01:55:57Z FareTower: Can you do the Symbolics user impression? 2018-04-14T01:56:57Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T01:58:26Z theemacsshibe[m]: I can't, too many non disclosure agreements. 2018-04-14T01:58:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T01:59:42Z theemacsshibe[m]: Alternate impression: I would tell you about my servers, but I can't get Ethernet working. 2018-04-14T01:59:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:02:13Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:03:04Z theemacsshibe[m]: I wasn't alive when Lisp machines were a thing. 2018-04-14T02:04:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:05:37Z luggager joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:05:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:05:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:06:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:10:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:10:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:11:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:14:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:16:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:17:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:22:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:22:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:23:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:24:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:25:21Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:28:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:29:33Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T02:29:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:34:03Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:34:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:35:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:38:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:38:09Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-14T02:39:23Z luggager: lispers may (or not) be interested in these fascinating reactions and discussion of the lisp machine {"and" :[{"rel" :[{"name" : "print"}, [{"name" : "x"}], {"host" :[{"name" : "print"}, [{"name" : "x"}]]}]},{"pred" :[{"name" : "print"}, [2]]}]} 2018-04-14T02:39:44Z luggager: meant https://tinyurl.com/y95mqrmk 2018-04-14T02:40:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:41:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:41:47Z ldb: nope 2018-04-14T02:41:54Z razzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T02:42:29Z ldb: real progrmmers use mouse 2018-04-14T02:42:58Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:43:06Z Lord_Nig- joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:44:28Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:45:00Z Lord_Nig- is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-14T02:46:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:47:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-14T02:53:34Z kushal- is now known as kushal 2018-04-14T02:54:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T02:56:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:00:21Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:00:23Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:00:34Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:02:41Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:08:18Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:10:06Z ninegrid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T03:21:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:22:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:23:03Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-14T03:25:08Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:25:14Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:25:23Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:25:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:26:09Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-14T03:26:17Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:26:50Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T03:27:12Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:32:49Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:34:03Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T03:34:35Z drmeister: clhs make-array 2018-04-14T03:34:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 2018-04-14T03:35:05Z razzy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:35:21Z drmeister: The CLHS says "If displaced-to is non-nil, make-array will create a displaced array and displaced-to is the target of that displaced array. In that case, the consequences are undefined if the actual array element type of displaced-to is not type equivalent to the actual array element type of the array being created. " 2018-04-14T03:35:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:36:02Z drmeister: I'd like to implement something where I can create displaced arrays of element type byte8 into other arrays. 2018-04-14T03:36:09Z luggager quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-14T03:36:57Z drmeister: This is to write out the memory contents of a particular array - like write out the bytes of a specialized array of floats. 2018-04-14T03:37:04Z drmeister: How bad of an idea is that? 2018-04-14T03:38:26Z razzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T03:39:06Z drmeister: Bike: I need to have an array of byte8 to pass to the pzmq library - I can't control how they are written out. 2018-04-14T03:44:26Z drmeister: Currently I get an: (ERROR "Cannot displace the array, because the element types don't match") if I try it. 2018-04-14T03:44:46Z drmeister: But I'm going to bypass that for displaced arrays of :element-type 'ext:byte8 2018-04-14T03:45:14Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:46:14Z Bike: i'd just make a new array 2018-04-14T03:46:20Z Bike: maybe with an expedited copying function 2018-04-14T03:48:45Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-14T03:49:57Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:52:32Z drmeister: I could do that as well and use memcpy. 2018-04-14T03:52:59Z drmeister: It just seemed unnecessary to copy the memory. 2018-04-14T03:54:24Z drmeister: This is for cl-jupyter-widgets - we can ship blocks of floats to the front end. 2018-04-14T03:56:17Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-14T03:56:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:57:10Z nicht joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:57:21Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T03:57:55Z drmeister: Hmmm, it segfaults when I try to read the displaced byte8 array 2018-04-14T03:58:45Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-14T03:58:55Z drmeister: Ok - I can't deal with that right now - copy it is. 2018-04-14T03:59:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:01:54Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T04:02:25Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:03:21Z nicht quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T04:04:00Z nicht joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:04:56Z nicht quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T04:05:27Z nicht joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:09:01Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:10:41Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:11:27Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:11:55Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:14:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:17:34Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T04:19:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:20:18Z nicht quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T04:20:25Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-14T04:21:07Z nicht joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:21:36Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T04:22:10Z drmeister: Well - creating a copy was easy enough . 2018-04-14T04:25:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:27:33Z nicht quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T04:30:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:35:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:36:15Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:39:39Z ninegrid joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:39:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:41:09Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:41:38Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:42:54Z iqubic: Is there a emacs lispy tutorial I can go through anywhere? Like an interactive tutorial I can play around in? 2018-04-14T04:44:58Z TMA: iqubic: you would be better off asking in #emacs, this is common lisp channel 2018-04-14T04:45:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:47:32Z iqubic: Oh, sorry. 2018-04-14T04:48:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T04:50:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T04:51:58Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T05:01:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T05:02:02Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:03:38Z dumb0 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:04:17Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T05:05:13Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:05:46Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T05:05:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:06:04Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:08:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:10:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T05:11:33Z dumb0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T05:15:29Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:16:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:19:30Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-14T05:21:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T05:21:58Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T05:22:33Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In particular, you can do something that in C would be more or less char** array_of_bytes = ...; float** array_of_floats = (float**)array_of_bytes; which is just casting. 2018-04-14T06:04:45Z phoe: BUT 2018-04-14T06:05:49Z edgar-rft: butt? 2018-04-14T06:05:52Z phoe: I also imagine that it would be sane to keep an error message in that case, because Lisp is strongly typed compared to C, and I think that most cases where one would want to displace array of elt-type A to array of elt-type B are simple mistakes and not voluntary actions. 2018-04-14T06:06:47Z phoe: Now that I think of it, I'd add a new keyword arg to MAKE-ARRAY, something like :CASTING-DISPLACE-TO that works like :DISPLACE-TO except it does just what you describe on the low-level. 2018-04-14T06:07:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:07:15Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T06:08:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:08:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T06:11:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T06:15:03Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:21:34Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:24:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T06:25:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:27:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:28:56Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:31:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T06:31:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-14T06:42:42Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-14T07:01:55Z Chream_: TMA: was a bit harsh or? i guess someone here in #lisp would know where an emacs tutorial is? 2018-04-14T07:05:09Z iqubic: Chream_: C-u C-h t 2018-04-14T07:08:24Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:11:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T07:12:19Z ghostyyy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T07:13:06Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:13:50Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:16:00Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:19:30Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:22:41Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T07:23:48Z phoe: Lisp has corrupted my speech way too much 2018-04-14T07:24:06Z phoe: When I saw the symbol DEFINITION I started wondering what the hell an INITION is. 2018-04-14T07:26:17Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:30:22Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:33:32Z mfiano: 0can MOP give us the full inheritance tree for an instance? 2018-04-14T07:33:37Z mfiano: -0 2018-04-14T07:33:54Z Shinmera: Sure, just walk it. 2018-04-14T07:34:10Z Shinmera: mop class-direct-superclasses 2018-04-14T07:34:11Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html 2018-04-14T07:34:11Z mfiano: I'll look into that, thanks. 2018-04-14T07:34:29Z Shinmera: note that in CLOS it's not a tree, but a graph. 2018-04-14T07:39:47Z erkin joined #lisp 2018-04-14T07:43:02Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2018-04-14T07:55:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T07:55:33Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-14T07:57:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-14T08:01:04Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-14T08:03:07Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:05:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:05:59Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:09:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:11:32Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:11:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:12:17Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:13:09Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:13:21Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-14T08:13:44Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:14:32Z phoe: Hey beach 2018-04-14T08:17:49Z beach: Chream_: Sure, but there are a lot of very knowledgeable people in #lisp, so if we were allowed to discuss any topic that someone might know, then this channel would drown in off-topic discussions. 2018-04-14T08:18:56Z SAL9000: Is there a channel for ELS? 2018-04-14T08:18:57Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:19:05Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:19:12Z beach: Not that I know. 2018-04-14T08:19:54Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:21:58Z phoe: SAL9000: mailing list. 2018-04-14T08:22:00Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:22:07Z phoe: http://lists.lrde.epita.fr/listinfo/elsconf 2018-04-14T08:23:36Z SAL9000: phoe: Yeah, I'm aware. IRC is sometimes more convenient for real time conversations though, thus my question 2018-04-14T08:24:11Z Shinmera: There's a WhatsApp group this year, I guess. 2018-04-14T08:24:17Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:24:28Z Shinmera: And you can reach didier on twitter, which may or may not be faster in case of problems. 2018-04-14T08:26:19Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T08:29:13Z TMA: Chream_: sure. those probably frequent #emacs too. I am still of the opinion, that iqubic would be better off asking there, probabilistically speaking -- there is a greater proportion of those willing to discuss things emacs there than it is here. I might have worded it too terse. It looks like iqubic was helped there faster anyway. 2018-04-14T08:32:16Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:33:18Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:35:40Z phoe: mop compute-class-precedence-list 2018-04-14T08:35:40Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-class-precedence-list.html 2018-04-14T08:37:31Z SlashLife quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-14T08:37:52Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:39:00Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:41:53Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-14T08:43:29Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:43:32Z cylb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:45:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:48:29Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:53:19Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T08:56:28Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2018-04-14T08:58:48Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:00:59Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:02:57Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:03:48Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:12:20Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:16:32Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:18:06Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:21:17Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:21:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:22:51Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:26:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:27:08Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:28:16Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:28:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:29:12Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-14T09:29:59Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:30:23Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:38:20Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:46:19Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:48:41Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:48:41Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T09:53:25Z Chream_2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T09:53:31Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T09:58:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T09:59:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:02:08Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:02:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:08:55Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T10:09:33Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:11:14Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T10:13:57Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:14:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:15:14Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:23:02Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:26:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T10:28:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T10:28:54Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T10:29:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:31:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T10:41:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T10:42:27Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:05:04Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:07:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:07:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:10:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:10:19Z Anthaas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:15:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:15:34Z test1600 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:15:44Z test1600 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T11:15:51Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:16:19Z test1600 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:22:16Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:22:26Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2018-04-14T11:22:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:23:33Z beach: I am working on WSCL and I could use some help. 2018-04-14T11:23:47Z phoe: What's up? 2018-04-14T11:24:01Z beach: For now, I have created a directory LaTeX, and I have started working on chapter 2. 2018-04-14T11:24:30Z beach: I need to make copies of the dpANS files rather than automatically process them 2018-04-14T11:24:41Z beach: because I need to modify those files later. 2018-04-14T11:25:02Z beach: So what I do for now is to gradually turn those files into standard LaTeX files. 2018-04-14T11:25:47Z beach: It is a somewhat labor-intensive task, so if anyone feels like helping out, that would be great. 2018-04-14T11:26:54Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:27:20Z beach: What I have decided to do is to modify the text in place, and then refer to some appendix for the original text whenever I decide to update some text in the spirit of WSCL. 2018-04-14T11:27:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:29:49Z phoe: I see. 2018-04-14T11:30:12Z beach: phoe: It is probably similar to what you had to do with CLUS. 2018-04-14T11:30:47Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T11:30:56Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:31:15Z phoe: beach: Yep, I see, except you're creating a modification of the standard where I'm creating a clarification of it. 2018-04-14T11:31:37Z beach: Sure. I just meant that the work involves similar manipulations. 2018-04-14T11:32:51Z beach: Some TeX macro calls, like beginSection etc. I just replace by standard LaTeX macro calls. 2018-04-14T11:33:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:33:13Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:33:24Z beach: Some others, like semantic markup things like newterm, I define a macro for and don't modify the original. 2018-04-14T11:33:32Z phoe: Yep, I see. 2018-04-14T11:33:47Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:35:25Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:36:23Z beach: I guess I should write a bunch of "issues" to help people decide what to do. 2018-04-14T11:38:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:38:35Z makomo: good afternoon :-) 2018-04-14T11:39:09Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:39:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:39:23Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:39:50Z blurgh: makomo: It's 4:38 AM here in the Bay Area :P 2018-04-14T11:40:05Z phoe: beach: yep, fire up the issues on GitHub that can be picked up by other people if they want to. 2018-04-14T11:40:32Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:40:44Z beach: blurgh: Please, we don't need to know what time it is in every time zone in the world. 2018-04-14T11:40:55Z makomo: blurgh: heh, can't take everything into account :D 2018-04-14T11:43:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:47:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:48:00Z beach: phoe: Anyway, it's a nice incremental project. 2018-04-14T11:48:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:49:18Z phoe: beach: yep, I see. 2018-04-14T11:49:22Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:49:40Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T11:49:53Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-14T11:54:23Z beach: phoe: When do you leave for ELS? 2018-04-14T11:55:42Z phoe: beach: I am packing up now, will fly tomorrow. 2018-04-14T11:56:05Z beach: OK. And you go directly from Malaga airport to Marbella? 2018-04-14T11:56:10Z phoe: Will be in Malaga at 18:00 my time, it'll take me a little bit longer to go to Marbella. 2018-04-14T11:56:13Z phoe: Yes. 2018-04-14T11:56:16Z phoe: Where are you currently? 2018-04-14T11:56:28Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T11:56:29Z beach: IBIS Malaga center city. 2018-04-14T11:57:01Z beach: "Centro Ciudad" 2018-04-14T11:58:24Z beach: phoe: Will you come alone? 2018-04-14T11:58:50Z beach noticed the "I". 2018-04-14T11:58:52Z phoe: beach: absolutely not. It seems that p_l and antoszka are boarding the same plane. 2018-04-14T11:59:06Z beach: Heh, OK. 2018-04-14T11:59:24Z p_l: We are going to have 4 person contingent, it seems 2018-04-14T11:59:33Z beach: Nice. 2018-04-14T11:59:46Z p_l: Plus jackdaniel flying another route 2018-04-14T11:59:49Z beach: Lots of Polacks this time. That's great. 2018-04-14T12:00:08Z SlowJimmy is now known as NotSoFastJames 2018-04-14T12:00:47Z phoe: beach: is it possible that we'll leave for Marbella together from Malaga? 2018-04-14T12:01:39Z beach: Me and my wife will take a taxi. Age and budget demands it. :) 2018-04-14T12:02:15Z phoe: I see! We might see each other in Marbella, then. 2018-04-14T12:02:47Z beach: Sure. We'll be there around 14:00 or so. Hotel Villa Marbella. Show up for a beer if you like. 2018-04-14T12:02:49Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-14T12:03:03Z p_l: We are expected 1800 in Malaga (landing time) 2018-04-14T12:03:04Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T12:03:19Z beach: OK, so maybe dinner then. 2018-04-14T12:03:21Z p_l: Flight LH1150 2018-04-14T12:03:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:03:35Z phoe: So we'll end up in Marbella later. I still don't know what the bus travel is from Malaga to Marbella. 2018-04-14T12:03:56Z beach: There are direct buses from Malaga airport to Marbella. 2018-04-14T12:04:01Z beach: Frequent too. 2018-04-14T12:04:39Z beach: Or, a taxi is around 80€. 2018-04-14T12:04:57Z beach: Split by 3 people is not too bad. 2018-04-14T12:06:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:08:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:09:15Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:10:02Z NotSoFastJames quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:10:44Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:11:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:13:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:17:19Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-14T12:17:48Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:18:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:19:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:22:59Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:26:43Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-14T12:29:43Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:30:29Z antoszka: phoe: p_l, antoszka and yet another guy from warsaw 2018-04-14T12:31:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:31:30Z phoe: Good! That's five of us, counting jackdaniel as well. 2018-04-14T12:32:09Z siraben: Is Practical Common Lisp a good place to start learning Common Lisp? 2018-04-14T12:32:20Z siraben: I know Scheme from SICP 2018-04-14T12:32:36Z phoe: siraben: https://github.com/GustavBertram/awesome-common-lisp-learning-list 2018-04-14T12:33:11Z phoe: PCL is a good place if you already know some programming. Get yourself a Portacle for an all-in-one Common Lisp development environment. 2018-04-14T12:33:34Z siraben: Yay Emacs 2018-04-14T12:33:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:34:22Z siraben: Is there a package instead? I already have my own Emacs configuration 2018-04-14T12:34:39Z siraben: I'll try out portacle as well 2018-04-14T12:35:25Z random-nick: well, if you want you can configure your environment yourself 2018-04-14T12:35:39Z phoe: siraben: yes, there's a set of packages. 2018-04-14T12:36:00Z phoe: the most essential one is SLIME. the best way of getting it is installing Quicklisp first, and then (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 2018-04-14T12:36:03Z Shinmera: Regarding ELS I'll be arriving in Malaga at ~9:00 and with the Bus I should be in Marbella at around 10:30 2018-04-14T12:36:11Z Shinmera: So if anyone wants to meet up tomorrow let me know 2018-04-14T12:36:17Z phoe: Shinmera: Sunday, correct? 2018-04-14T12:36:24Z Shinmera: Yes 2018-04-14T12:36:37Z siraben: What about Paul Graham's On Lisp? 2018-04-14T12:36:57Z phoe: siraben: On Lisp is not a book for beginners. 2018-04-14T12:37:11Z phoe: If you enjoy Graham's style, start with his book ANSI Common Lisp. 2018-04-14T12:37:28Z phoe: He's mostly talking good stuff, though several things he said in that book are simply wrong. 2018-04-14T12:37:30Z siraben: Some major differences between CL and Scheme apart from the libraries? 2018-04-14T12:37:35Z siraben: Is it the macro and object system? 2018-04-14T12:37:38Z phoe: Yes, everything. 2018-04-14T12:37:59Z random-nick: why is installing SLIME through quicklisp preferable to installing it through ELPA? 2018-04-14T12:38:02Z phoe: Scheme is oriented towards functional programming where CL is as multiparadigm as a language can get. 2018-04-14T12:38:07Z Shinmera: The difference is that Scheme is not Lisp 2018-04-14T12:38:08Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:38:31Z siraben: Scheme is not Lisp? 2018-04-14T12:38:36Z phoe: random-nick: it'll get upgraded with each Quicklisp upgrade. For some reason, I prefer that to the mess that I often ran into with ELPA/MELPA. 2018-04-14T12:38:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:38:51Z antoszka: siraben: Some say it is, some it's not. 2018-04-14T12:39:00Z antoszka: Even though it's superficially very similar. 2018-04-14T12:39:01Z phoe: Shinmera: the last time I attempted to troll on #lisp you were the first one to complain about it 2018-04-14T12:39:03Z siraben: Is there a specification like R5RS but for Common Lisp available? 2018-04-14T12:39:08Z phoe: siraben: yes, CLHS> 2018-04-14T12:39:11Z phoe: clhs car 2018-04-14T12:39:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 2018-04-14T12:39:15Z siraben: As a PDF? 2018-04-14T12:39:21Z Shinmera: phoe: :) 2018-04-14T12:39:28Z phoe: siraben: yes, though keep in mind that it's 1300 pages long. 2018-04-14T12:39:34Z White_Flame: "Lisp" is the name of a family of languages which includes Scheme, but "LISP" is also the name of the first implementation, and languages whcih derived from it and recombined into "Common Lisp" are still basically known as "Lisp" when no other modifier is involved 2018-04-14T12:39:35Z siraben: What 2018-04-14T12:39:40Z siraben: R5RS is 50 pages long! 2018-04-14T12:39:52Z Shinmera: Well Common Lisp is big. 2018-04-14T12:39:54Z siraben: Wow so it's Lisp on steroids 2018-04-14T12:40:00Z phoe: siraben: welcome to Common Lisp 2018-04-14T12:40:11Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:40:12Z random-nick: you also can't do anything useful with just R5RS 2018-04-14T12:40:13Z White_Flame: Scheme is an exercise in language minimalism 2018-04-14T12:40:28Z phoe: don't worry though, a lot of that is just formal speech. 2018-04-14T12:40:34Z siraben: random-nick: That's what R7RS tried to solve, but ended up making it bloaty 2018-04-14T12:40:57Z siraben: Scheme is very nice to work with to explore conceptual things, I suppose. 2018-04-14T12:40:57Z White_Flame: (Scheme _was_ an exercise in language minimalism ;) ) 2018-04-14T12:41:02Z siraben: Makes a good teaching language too 2018-04-14T12:41:09Z random-nick: siraben: wasn't it R6RS that is considered bloated? 2018-04-14T12:41:37Z phoe: siraben: http://cvberry.com/downloads/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf 2018-04-14T12:41:56Z siraben: I've already ordered Practical Common Lisp, should arrive in a couple days. I like how it very, well, practical and that Lisp isn't just for cool meta-circular evaluators :) 2018-04-14T12:42:00Z phoe: but note that it's a standard, not a manual. 2018-04-14T12:42:21Z siraben: Was the Common Lisp standard formally proved correct? 2018-04-14T12:42:29Z phoe: define "prove correct" 2018-04-14T12:42:36Z random-nick: how can a standard be incorrect? 2018-04-14T12:42:38Z siraben: phoe: You weren't kidding about the size 2018-04-14T12:42:44Z siraben: Undefined behavior 2018-04-14T12:42:46Z Shinmera: A standard is the definition of correctness! 2018-04-14T12:43:04Z phoe: siraben: the standard explicitly says what kind of behavior it treats as undefined 2018-04-14T12:43:05Z siraben: Right, but are the implementations correct? 2018-04-14T12:43:14Z phoe: siraben: there's a test suite that tests conformance 2018-04-14T12:43:25Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ 2018-04-14T12:43:28Z tazjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:43:38Z Shinmera: No, but they're correct for the overwhelming majority of practical purposes. 2018-04-14T12:43:55Z makomo: hm, it seems cl-ppcre doesn't support the \h backslash sequence :^( 2018-04-14T12:43:56Z Shinmera: Proving a CL implementation correct is infeasible 2018-04-14T12:43:59Z phoe: also, no sane Common Lisp implementation is 100% conformant with the standard 2018-04-14T12:44:04Z siraben: Why not? 2018-04-14T12:44:10Z Shinmera: Because it's too big 2018-04-14T12:44:14Z phoe: makomo: are you sure that you are using "\\h" and not "\h" in strings? 2018-04-14T12:44:15Z phoe: Shinmera: no 2018-04-14T12:44:16Z Shinmera: Proofs are not feasible for large systems. 2018-04-14T12:44:19Z siraben: Lol what about the Javascript spec? 2018-04-14T12:44:20Z makomo: phoe: yup 2018-04-14T12:44:30Z phoe: because we have Unicode 2018-04-14T12:44:41Z phoe: and Unicode contradicts the Lisp spec 2018-04-14T12:44:55Z makomo: \h is supposed to include both the "classical" horizontal whitespace and some unicode stuff like no-break space, etc. 2018-04-14T12:45:01Z siraben: What can I expect to be able to understand well after reading through Practical Common Lisp? 2018-04-14T12:45:16Z Shinmera: That depends entirely on you 2018-04-14T12:45:17Z phoe: in 100% conformant ANSI CL, we have a perfect bijective mapping between lowercase characters and uppercase characters; Unicode does not implement anything like that. 2018-04-14T12:45:20Z makomo: i mean, i doubt i'll have documents with such horizontal space, but having it for completeness would be nice 2018-04-14T12:45:35Z phoe: siraben: reading, no idea; actually following through with the exercises, you'll grasp the basics of CL 2018-04-14T12:45:37Z makomo: s/horizontal space/weird characters/ 2018-04-14T12:45:44Z Bike: are any of the javascript implementations verified 2018-04-14T12:45:48Z siraben: Any readers of Land of Lisp? 2018-04-14T12:45:55Z Bike: ah, there's one in ocaml 2018-04-14T12:46:19Z siraben: Bike: http://www.jscert.org/ 2018-04-14T12:46:27Z Bike: yes, that one 2018-04-14T12:46:53Z siraben: What are good resources for understanding how to prove programs? 2018-04-14T12:47:02Z siraben: Always seems like wizardry to me 2018-04-14T12:47:10Z Bike: learn coq, probably 2018-04-14T12:48:11Z Shinmera: siraben: Learning lots of really tedious and boring maths 2018-04-14T12:48:20Z siraben: So I'll just take it on faith 2018-04-14T12:49:02Z siraben: What about PAIP? 2018-04-14T12:49:16Z siraben: Reminds me of SICP 2018-04-14T12:49:22Z smokeink: PAIP is an awesome book 2018-04-14T12:49:43Z siraben: Did you read the entire thing? 2018-04-14T12:49:50Z siraben: Looks cool from the table of contents 2018-04-14T12:50:03Z smokeink: I'm currently reading the last 2 chapters, about making interpretors and compilers in common lisp 2018-04-14T12:50:39Z smokeink: so far I've only read the first few chapters, now I'm reading the last few chapters 2018-04-14T12:51:25Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:51:39Z smokeink: cuz I don't need to understand the Eliza talking bot right now , but I want to understand how this thing works: http://lisperator.net/slip/ , it seems to be based on PAIP 2018-04-14T12:52:42Z siraben: Eliza is cool 2018-04-14T12:52:55Z siraben: in Emacs, M-x doctor 2018-04-14T12:53:45Z Bike: paip is mainly about historical AI. it has some basic stuff about interpreting and compiling lisp, but you'd need to know more t han that for an actual implementation 2018-04-14T12:54:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T12:54:55Z smokeink: what other books do you guys recommend , for understanding how to make a lisp ? Lisp in Small Pieces ? 2018-04-14T12:55:18Z drunk_foxx[m]: I've started PAIP and On Lisp in parallel after Land of Lisp, seems like a great flavor to me. There are also quite great excercises in the book so that you don't just read and repeat 2018-04-14T12:55:54Z drunk_foxx[m]: Lisp in Small Pieces focuses mainly on Scheme, afaik 2018-04-14T12:55:55Z Bike: lisp in small pieces is pretty good. 2018-04-14T12:57:01Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:57:15Z drunk_foxx[m]: > Eliza is cool 2018-04-14T12:57:15Z drunk_foxx[m]: It's especially funny to compare it to some of the modern bots, and understand that actually not much progress has been made since those days 2018-04-14T12:58:07Z smokeink: can SBCL easily be ported to WebAssembly (which funny enough, is based on S-Expressions) ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEYtwmI7bDg ( WebAssembly hello world ) 2018-04-14T12:58:35Z Bike: porting probably isn't easy 2018-04-14T12:58:49Z Bike: and lisp has a pretty big runtime, so in a browser might not go well 2018-04-14T12:59:15Z phoe: Bike: d'oh 2018-04-14T12:59:16Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T12:59:23Z smokeink: webassembly seems to run natively 2018-04-14T12:59:24Z Bike: ? 2018-04-14T12:59:27Z phoe: some contemporary JS websites have much, much bigger runtimes 2018-04-14T12:59:34Z phoe: without having any CL. (; 2018-04-14T13:00:05Z cylb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T13:00:17Z p_l: WebAssembly could be generated from SBCL's compiler, but AFAIK there were some issues in making it a lisp friendly place 2018-04-14T13:00:29Z cylb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:00:41Z p_l: You can, of course, do the Turing tarpit tango, but that might not be a best idea 2018-04-14T13:00:50Z smokeink: what issues are there 2018-04-14T13:01:42Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:02:15Z p_l: I don't remember everything, but I seem to recall some of type checking and function call semantics were iffy? 2018-04-14T13:02:36Z Bike: i feel like running your own gc is probably problematic 2018-04-14T13:02:44Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:02:49Z p_l: That said, you could probably port a CL implementation to wasm, maybe not necessarily SBCL 2018-04-14T13:02:55Z siraben: drunk_foxx[m]: Why has work on Eliza-like assistants gone dark after the 1990s? 2018-04-14T13:03:12Z Bike: well 2018-04-14T13:03:13Z Bike: eliza sucks 2018-04-14T13:03:15Z Bike: so there's that 2018-04-14T13:03:20Z siraben: What's better? 2018-04-14T13:03:26Z siraben: Still better than say, Siri 2018-04-14T13:03:31Z p_l: siraben: it has not, really. There was general slump in symbolic AI 2018-04-14T13:03:42Z Bike: i really don't think eliza is better than siri 2018-04-14T13:03:44Z siraben: Granted there's the voice recognition, but NLP is still bad 2018-04-14T13:03:50Z p_l: And Eliza's only task was to fool a human 2018-04-14T13:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:04:06Z p_l: Not to actually understand anything 2018-04-14T13:04:06Z siraben: Siri feels like it's parsing phrases with regex 2018-04-14T13:04:19Z Bike: it's not, but if it was, that would make it as good as eliza 2018-04-14T13:04:38Z p_l: Haven't really used Siri, but heard rumours of internal struggle regarding priorities 2018-04-14T13:04:38Z siraben: What's the state of the art in NLP? 2018-04-14T13:04:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:05:19Z siraben: Siri is really bad, any deviation from a specific phrasing makes it say "Sorry, I don't understand" or other canned responses 2018-04-14T13:05:28Z siraben: phrasing or set of phrases* 2018-04-14T13:05:34Z Bike: do you know how eliza works? 2018-04-14T13:05:46Z siraben: It's a pattern matcher, right? 2018-04-14T13:05:53Z Bike: basically regexes, yes 2018-04-14T13:05:54Z siraben: I read the source of doctor.el for Emacs 2018-04-14T13:06:15Z drunk_foxx[m]: > drunk\_foxx[m]: Why has work on Eliza-like assistants gone dark after the 1990s? 2018-04-14T13:06:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: AI winter is the reason, I guess 2018-04-14T13:06:30Z p_l: smokeink: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11269736 2018-04-14T13:06:54Z nirved: back at the end 90s i came to the conclusion that human mind state can be represented in 50-70 dimensions (each dimension is a duality), haven't checked if this is correct though 2018-04-14T13:07:21Z nirved: also dimensions might differ between individuals 2018-04-14T13:08:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: A note about voice recognition: it was there almost 40 years ago with the use of Symbolics Lisp Machines. Now think about how much progress has been made since then (not much imo) 2018-04-14T13:08:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/89elb7/symbolics_lisp_machines_in_use_in_a_research_lab/ 2018-04-14T13:09:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: Not only voice recognition there, though 2018-04-14T13:09:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:09:44Z smokeink: p_l: well does x86 assembly offer any special support for multiple-return-values ? 2018-04-14T13:09:54Z siraben: drunk_foxx[m]: Lisp in Small Pieces is pretty pricey 2018-04-14T13:10:34Z drunk_foxx[m]: Well you can download it as a pdf/djvu file if you are okay with that 2018-04-14T13:10:37Z Bike: x64 sysv abi has two return registers, yeah? so there's that 2018-04-14T13:10:50Z siraben: Isn't that illegal? 2018-04-14T13:11:03Z Bike: pirating books is illegal, yes 2018-04-14T13:11:36Z siraben: There are so many Lisp books to read... 2018-04-14T13:11:39Z siraben: + Scheme 2018-04-14T13:12:05Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:12:07Z phoe: siraben: then start with PCL 2018-04-14T13:12:16Z phoe: it's a very sane choice for learning Lisp 2018-04-14T13:12:53Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:13:09Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:13:28Z drunk_foxx[m]: I personally tried PCL after Land of Lisp (I had no serious prior experience in any programming language), and I didn't like the way of telling (I think Peter is oversimplifying in some places) 2018-04-14T13:13:44Z drunk_foxx[m]: For some practical stuff, I think that Common Lisp Recipes by Ed Weitz is great 2018-04-14T13:14:01Z siraben: I'm not even fully done with SICP, just the lectures and some chapters, still to finish the compiler, logic programming section. 2018-04-14T13:14:11Z drunk_foxx[m]: And it is significantly more recent 2018-04-14T13:14:21Z siraben: Not knowing Scheme at all from the start it still was very enlightening 2018-04-14T13:14:29Z siraben: phoe: Right I'll get to PCL 2018-04-14T13:14:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:14:52Z phoe: drunk_foxx[m]: except the Book of Edi won't give you the basics of the language. 2018-04-14T13:15:00Z phoe: Once you have the basics, Book of Edi is wonderful. 2018-04-14T13:15:16Z siraben: One can do so much with Scheme, can't imagine the power of Common Lisp and its libraries 2018-04-14T13:16:11Z phoe: There's no real mythical power here 2018-04-14T13:16:24Z phoe: Lisp is just another language for programming the von Neumann machine. 2018-04-14T13:16:44Z phoe: Which is equivalent to Turing machine. 2018-04-14T13:17:06Z siraben: Of course, but writing in languages like Lisp saves a lot of time 2018-04-14T13:17:28Z phoe: It's just that it allows programming in a more fun, shorter, faster way. 2018-04-14T13:17:32Z siraben: Right 2018-04-14T13:17:42Z drunk_foxx[m]: > I'm not even fully done with SICP, just the lectures and some chapters, still to finish the compiler, logic programming section. 2018-04-14T13:17:43Z drunk_foxx[m]: Common Lisp can also be used for logic programming, if you will be interested in the future: https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/ 2018-04-14T13:17:44Z drunk_foxx[m]: I personally didn't have time to try it yet, but looking forward to 2018-04-14T13:18:02Z smokeink: nice 2018-04-14T13:18:24Z siraben: Good ways to practice using Common Lisp after a book? 2018-04-14T13:18:48Z siraben: Just use it for everything? 2018-04-14T13:19:06Z drunk_foxx[m]: Solve some issues for useful libraries, probably 2018-04-14T13:19:21Z phoe: siraben: there's no better way to learn any language than using it 2018-04-14T13:19:24Z drunk_foxx[m]: Or try the bounties that are published for projects like McCLIM 2018-04-14T13:19:27Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:19:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:19:48Z phoe: try writing some stuff of your own, use other people's libraries, find shortcomings and bugs in these libraries, dive into these libraries, start fixing things in them and submitting PRs 2018-04-14T13:20:02Z phoe: that way you'll end up learning the language, the ecosystem, the community at once. 2018-04-14T13:20:16Z siraben: Similar to learning Emacs Lisp I suppose, one can contribute to Emacs 2018-04-14T13:20:31Z drunk_foxx[m]: I was talking about something like that: 2018-04-14T13:20:32Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim/bounties 2018-04-14T13:20:37Z siraben: With Scheme there's GNU Guile 2018-04-14T13:20:46Z phoe: siraben: not really to emacs, to its ecosystem rather 2018-04-14T13:20:59Z phoe: emacs itself is a core that's rather tightly guarded by GNU and contributing to it is hard. 2018-04-14T13:21:11Z shrdlu68: Surprised those bounties are still around. 2018-04-14T13:21:13Z phoe: there's a lot of elisp packages everywhere which are very easily modifiable though. 2018-04-14T13:21:32Z phoe: shrdlu68: things that need to be done don't disappear magically on their own, unless someone does them 2018-04-14T13:22:18Z shrdlu68: Surprised nobody has claimed those bounties. 2018-04-14T13:22:39Z shrdlu68: Looked at them a while back, but then I got busy. 2018-04-14T13:23:40Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:24:11Z drunk_foxx[m]: McCLIM lacks attention, sadly 2018-04-14T13:24:23Z shrdlu68: Hmm, looks like I've found something to do. 2018-04-14T13:24:43Z jjkola joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:24:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:25:05Z ebrasca: Hi 2018-04-14T13:25:29Z shrdlu68: Hi ebrasca 2018-04-14T13:25:30Z jjkola: hi 2018-04-14T13:25:36Z phoe: hey hi 2018-04-14T13:25:44Z phoe: shrdlu68: go grab them, then! 2018-04-14T13:27:15Z ebrasca: phoe: Are you planing some meting? 2018-04-14T13:28:17Z phoe: ebrasca: yes, there's a pretty huge meeting in Spain on Monday. 2018-04-14T13:29:12Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:29:36Z shrdlu68: phoe: ELS? 2018-04-14T13:29:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:29:53Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:30:03Z ebrasca: phoe: I can't go to spain :( 2018-04-14T13:30:08Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:31:03Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:31:03Z froggey joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:31:10Z drunk_foxx[m]: Well, at least the lectures will be available after 2018-04-14T13:31:39Z drunk_foxx[m]: Like the ones from past symposiums 2018-04-14T13:31:44Z phoe: ebrasca: welp. I don't plan any meeting in Poland though. 2018-04-14T13:33:56Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:35:15Z siraben: phoe: I'm planning to contribute to Emacs Calc, a default package that isn't well documented and needs a better integration algorithm 2018-04-14T13:35:35Z siraben: But for core C code and core Emacs Lisp functions, I can see why they are guarding it closely. 2018-04-14T13:36:49Z phoe: siraben: you're free to fork Emacs and modify it on your own, but expect a lot of work required to pull your changes back into the root codebase. 2018-04-14T13:37:28Z siraben: Lol even just documentation strings? 2018-04-14T13:37:33Z siraben: Oof 2018-04-14T13:38:28Z phoe: Well, docstrings could be much easier to work with. 2018-04-14T13:38:31Z phoe: They're text, not code. 2018-04-14T13:39:21Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T13:39:23Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:39:28Z siraben: And adding relatively benign functions such as the powerset, more set operations, should be all right, but I have yet to submit a patch request 2018-04-14T13:40:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:41:31Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T13:42:08Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:43:44Z phoe: siraben: powerset? you mean written in C or in elisp? 2018-04-14T13:44:08Z phoe: If it's C, I have no idea if emacs needs such functions; if it's elisp, they'll most likely ask you to create a package submittable to one of Emacs package repositories. 2018-04-14T13:44:23Z phoe: Lisp, including Elisp, is way more extensible by its users than C. 2018-04-14T13:45:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:47:16Z pjb: Well, more precisely (turing equivalence and all that), the difference is that lisp is extensible at a smaller level, using small tools provided by the language itself, in the same program where the extension is used, while in C, extensions have to be made by way of pre-processors, that requires in general to implement a whole C parser, and a whole new program of the size of a compiler. 2018-04-14T13:47:57Z pjb: C is still extensible by its users (and is being and has been extended in several occasions: Objective-C, C++, PRO*C, etc). 2018-04-14T13:48:12Z pjb: But in lisp, it's nicer and nibbler. 2018-04-14T13:49:16Z pjb: And then, when you see the difficulties C programmers have with the simple abstraction tool that functions are… 2018-04-14T13:50:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T13:50:42Z himmAllRight quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T13:50:51Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:51:16Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-14T13:54:00Z siraben: phoe: Elisp 2018-04-14T13:54:09Z siraben: phoe: to Emacs Calc 2018-04-14T13:54:22Z siraben: They already have some set functions like intersection, disjoint, union, so powerset can't hurt 2018-04-14T13:54:57Z phoe: Ooh, that. I see. 2018-04-14T13:56:14Z siraben: And I can't believe functions like `calc-prime-test' are still without documentation 2018-04-14T13:57:10Z tazjin joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:02:15Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-14T14:03:29Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:05:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:07:27Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:09:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:10:29Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T14:11:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:14:46Z patrixl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:15:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:16:03Z random-nick: are format strings turing complete? 2018-04-14T14:16:18Z Shinmera: There's ~/, so yes 2018-04-14T14:20:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:21:21Z phoe: random-nick: ~/ invokes arbitrary Lisp code. without ~/, format is not turing complete. 2018-04-14T14:21:22Z siraben: Format strings are turing complete? 2018-04-14T14:21:26Z phoe: siraben: 2018-04-14T14:21:27Z phoe: clhs format 2018-04-14T14:21:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 2018-04-14T14:21:28Z siraben: Ah 2018-04-14T14:21:43Z siraben: Is there a turing machine based on macros? 2018-04-14T14:22:01Z phoe: define "based on macros" 2018-04-14T14:24:55Z siraben: e.g. (defmacro ...) 2018-04-14T14:25:07Z siraben: Purely transformation rules 2018-04-14T14:25:29Z siraben: Recursive macros, I suppose. Intuitively they feel turing complete. 2018-04-14T14:25:53Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:25:55Z phoe: yes, macros can be called recursively 2018-04-14T14:26:06Z phoe: macro is just an ordinary function. 2018-04-14T14:26:21Z siraben: How are rewrite rules Turing complete? 2018-04-14T14:26:22Z phoe: except it accepts Lisp forms and outputs Lisp code. 2018-04-14T14:26:49Z phoe: siraben: rewrite rules? 2018-04-14T14:27:12Z phoe: You get some Lisp forms as input, are able to perform arbitrary computations on them, and return the result as Lisp forms. 2018-04-14T14:27:29Z phoe: Arbitrary computation can be proven by implementing a Turing machine in Lisp macros. 2018-04-14T14:27:34Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:27:42Z siraben: phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_rewriting_system 2018-04-14T14:27:47Z phoe: But you have all of Lisp available when you do macroexpansion, just like during runtime, compile-time, read-time. 2018-04-14T14:27:58Z siraben: Of course 2018-04-14T14:28:18Z phoe: oh, SRS. It's Turing complete, but it doesn't have anything to do with Lisp macros, I think. 2018-04-14T14:29:49Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:31:34Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:35:14Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-14T14:35:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:35:54Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:35:56Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:36:26Z blurgh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:36:38Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:40:21Z jjkola quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-14T14:40:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:41:20Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:42:11Z pjb: phoe: I wouldn't be so sure. If you write (let ((string (make-array +infinite-size+ :element-type 'character))) (format string "…" string)), perhaps something can be done? 2018-04-14T14:43:25Z pjb: (let ((string (make-array 100 :element-type 'character :fill-pointer 3))) (replace string "abc") (format string "~S" string) string) #| --> "abc\"abc\"" |# 2018-04-14T14:43:25Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T14:44:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:44:16Z pjb: Unfortunately, strings are not lists. format specifiers work on lists (cf. ~*). 2018-04-14T14:44:29Z pjb: and format doesn't take a list as output. If it did… 2018-04-14T14:45:05Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T14:45:16Z phoe: pjb: that's exactly the problem with format. The lists passed to it as arguments are immutable by FORMAT itself. 2018-04-14T14:46:10Z pjb: yes. 2018-04-14T14:46:21Z phoe: Hm. 2018-04-14T14:46:30Z pjb: without ~/. 2018-04-14T14:46:53Z phoe: Yes, that's the limitation. ~/ is no longer FORMAT itself, it's arbitrary Lisp code. 2018-04-14T14:52:19Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:56:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T14:57:12Z _Mental joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:00:35Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:01:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:01:27Z phoe: clhs ~/ 2018-04-14T15:01:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 2018-04-14T15:04:50Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-14T15:06:05Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:06:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:08:50Z Satou quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-14T15:11:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:14:59Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:16:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:21:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:21:58Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:22:11Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:22:41Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:22:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:23:41Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-14T15:25:59Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:27:38Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-14T15:29:23Z makomo: what would be the best way to go from a generalized boolean to a T/NIL? 2018-04-14T15:29:40Z phoe: makomo: (not (not x)) is the simplest 2018-04-14T15:29:42Z makomo: (not (not ...)) comes to mind but 2018-04-14T15:29:45Z makomo: oh.. 2018-04-14T15:29:51Z makomo: is that the most idiomatic? 2018-04-14T15:29:52Z phoe: (if foo t nil) is a bit more explicit 2018-04-14T15:30:09Z phoe: I think (if foo 't 'nil) would be *the* most idiomatic and correct, since you explicitly want the symbols T and NIL 2018-04-14T15:30:19Z makomo: phoe: i guess, but that reminds me of "if (x > y) return true; else return false;" instead of just "return x > y;" 2018-04-14T15:30:51Z phoe: makomo: depends, here "return true" means "return anything that isn't NIL" 2018-04-14T15:30:55Z Shinmera: Why would you want to go to t/nil explicitly? 2018-04-14T15:30:59Z makomo: hm yeah, the semantics aren't completely the same 2018-04-14T15:31:05Z makomo: since cl has generalized booleans 2018-04-14T15:31:17Z makomo: Shinmera: well, for example, say i want to test whether a given string is an email address 2018-04-14T15:31:22Z phoe: if you want either the symbol T or the symbol NIL, then (if foo 't 'nil) conveys exactly this meaning 2018-04-14T15:31:31Z makomo: i can use cl-ppcre on it, but i want to return just T/NIL, and not cl-ppcre's matches and stuff 2018-04-14T15:31:43Z Shinmera: Don't really get the point of that, but oke 2018-04-14T15:31:51Z makomo: even if i wrapped cl-ppcre:scan's into (values), i would still get the first "match-begin" value 2018-04-14T15:31:59Z makomo: Shinmera: the point of telling whether a string is an email or? 2018-04-14T15:32:11Z phoe: makomo: honestly? just return the match-begin thing 2018-04-14T15:32:21Z phoe: and describe that your function returns a generalized boolean 2018-04-14T15:32:40Z makomo: phoe: it's a bit weird when calling email-p from the repl though 2018-04-14T15:32:59Z makomo: (email-p "something@something.com") ; => 34 2018-04-14T15:33:01Z makomo: or w/e number 2018-04-14T15:33:09Z phoe: makomo: 34 is true enough in Lisp 2018-04-14T15:33:09Z makomo: i mean, it looks a bit ugly 2018-04-14T15:33:13Z karswell_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-14T15:33:16Z makomo: or actually, it should be the number 0 2018-04-14T15:33:22Z makomo: yes, it's always the number 0, my bad 2018-04-14T15:33:27Z makomo: since the whole string has to match 2018-04-14T15:33:29Z phoe: but if you want an explicit coercion to a boolean, then use (if foo 't 'nil) 2018-04-14T15:33:36Z makomo: i guess 2018-04-14T15:33:44Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:33:45Z makomo: thought there might be a "more idiomatic" way 2018-04-14T15:34:03Z makomo: but i think i agree with what you said 2018-04-14T15:34:57Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:35:10Z Shinmera: makomo: No, the point of explicitly returning NIL/T. If you document that it's a boolean, it's fine to return generalised booleans. 2018-04-14T15:35:28Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:35:28Z impaktor joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:36:28Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:36:44Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-14T15:36:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:37:50Z remi`bd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:37:55Z makomo: ah, hmm, well ok 2018-04-14T15:38:46Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-14T15:39:05Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:40:10Z Shinmera: I'm much more in the camp of "conciseness" than "explicitness" myself, but it's just different ideals. 2018-04-14T15:40:36Z Shinmera: So if you want to return explicit booleans sure. Just better be consistent about it. 2018-04-14T15:42:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:45:05Z impaktor: Hi! 2018-04-14T15:45:05Z impaktor: Slightly shameful question/offer, but: I have an article that's about to be published in Scientific Reports (accepted, I just got the proof back for final check, called "Fitting a function to time-dependent ensemble averaged data"), and in it I have the sentence "Computer codes are freely available (Python, Octave/matlab, and Lisp)". My intention was to put "Common Lisp", but I got stuck when porting python's numpy method calls to 2018-04-14T15:45:05Z impaktor: common lisp's GSLL-call. 2018-04-14T15:45:05Z impaktor: 2018-04-14T15:45:15Z impaktor: I eventually gave up and ported the Python code to Hy Lisp, because I do want my article to mention there's code in "Lisp". If anyone feels up to tinker with it, I have both working python and hy lisp code here: https://github.com/impaktor/wlsice 2018-04-14T15:45:20Z impaktor: If so, I'll put a "code available in Common lisp and Hy Lisp" 2018-04-14T15:46:02Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:46:08Z impaktor: Anyway, I'm tired of fighting this code, so just thought I'd throw it out as a last check here. 2018-04-14T15:48:05Z impaktor: If not I'll remove the common lisp code from the repo. 2018-04-14T15:48:24Z phoe: impaktor: put it on a branch instead of removing it 2018-04-14T15:48:30Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:49:55Z impaktor: phoe: yeah, I'll do that at publication time. 2018-04-14T15:50:05Z pjb: makomo: the most direct from the user point of view, and assuming a dumb compiler would be (if b 't 'nil). But (not (null b)) (or (not (not b))) would also be nice if you have a good compiler, eg. a compiler that is able to deal with machine booleans, and who understand what (not (null b)) mean (but then, if it knew, it would also know about (if b 't 'nil)). On different processors, there booleans can be represented differently. 2018-04-14T15:50:06Z pjb: Eg. on 680x0, they're #x00 or #xFF and the boolean instructions (such as the Scc instructions) produce those values. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25035030/understanding-the-scc-instructions-of-68000-assembly?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_rich_qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa 2018-04-14T15:50:23Z pjb: But on other processors, it may be 0 and 1, or 0 and -1, etc. 2018-04-14T15:50:29Z phoe: pjb: if you have a good compiler, (if foo 't 'nil) will also be optimized. 2018-04-14T15:50:33Z pjb: Yes. 2018-04-14T15:50:38Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-14T15:51:13Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:51:20Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:53:08Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T15:56:22Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T15:58:33Z Chream_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:02:24Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:04:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:11:58Z skali quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-14T16:12:54Z pierpal: and you may want to add a comment clarifying that this conversion has only an aesthetical purpose when using the function in the repl. otherwise readers, including you at a later time, will wonder why you did that 2018-04-14T16:22:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:23:26Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:23:34Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:24:12Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:28:23Z pjb: in any case, I would write a functional abstraction. (defun bool (x) (not (not x))) (declaim (inline bool)) (defun foop (x) (bool (some-predicate-foo x))) 2018-04-14T16:30:12Z phoe: I wish (coerce foo 'boolean 2018-04-14T16:30:15Z phoe: ) worked 2018-04-14T16:30:17Z phoe: clhs boolean 2018-04-14T16:30:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ban.htm 2018-04-14T16:33:24Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:37:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:41:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:42:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:48:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:53:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T16:53:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T16:56:00Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T16:58:44Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:00:21Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:00:38Z ghostyy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:01:19Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:01:23Z pfdietz: I'd prefer if functions that return generalized booleans return T for true. In general, more specific provided behavior for an interface is good, unless there's a significant reason for that not to be the case. 2018-04-14T17:01:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:02:10Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:02:16Z pfdietz: It's an example of the Robustness Principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle 2018-04-14T17:03:50Z kolb: Marbella is Sweet! Who else is inbound or already at the beaches? :-) 2018-04-14T17:04:10Z pfdietz: Not me. :( 2018-04-14T17:08:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:10:36Z kolb: It's almost too nice to last minute prep a silly lightning talk....... 2018-04-14T17:10:57Z phoe: kolb: whatcha gonna talk about? 2018-04-14T17:11:53Z phoe: I might do a lightning demo of the working fork of Reddit 1.0 that has emerged, https://github.com/tamurashingo/reddit1.0/ 2018-04-14T17:12:22Z phoe: absolutely not my work and I take no credit for it, but I think it would be worthy to quickload it, run it, and do some silly things in the web browser 2018-04-14T17:12:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:13:34Z kolb: phoe: I had to implement tegex in lua, so to parse them I ported maxpc 2018-04-14T17:13:41Z phoe: unless someone has already set up a semi-permanent instance of reddit1.0 somewhere 2018-04-14T17:13:47Z phoe: kolb: wow 2018-04-14T17:14:15Z kolb: Then I compiled regex to maxpc, and only then realized regex needs backtracking:D 2018-04-14T17:14:38Z kolb: So i grafted on backtracking combinators to maxpc 2018-04-14T17:15:06Z kolb: Its a white hot mess of closures 2018-04-14T17:15:24Z kolb: But I think its cheeky and cute 2018-04-14T17:15:46Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:15:48Z Chream_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T17:15:56Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:16:10Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:16:27Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:17:37Z kolb: phoe: +1 for Reddit 1.0, I glanced at the sources and it looked reasonable 2018-04-14T17:18:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:20:31Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:23:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:24:53Z Shinmera: kolb: I'll be there in about 15 hours 2018-04-14T17:25:28Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:26:08Z cylb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T17:28:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:32:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:38:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:43:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:44:58Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:45:38Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-14T17:47:06Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:47:29Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:48:35Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:49:06Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T17:49:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:55:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:56:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T17:56:14Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T17:58:15Z dim: make it 23h and I'll be there too ;-) 2018-04-14T17:58:53Z dim: it's going to be strange, nice, and fun to meet with all you guys from IRC! 2018-04-14T17:59:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:00:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:04:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:07:05Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:09:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:10:24Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-14T18:11:10Z phoe: dim: you'll actually get a proof against the Internet theorem 2018-04-14T18:11:20Z phoe: "there's only three people on the Internet: you, me, and this guy who types really fast" 2018-04-14T18:11:22Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:14:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:17:04Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T18:17:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:18:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:19:20Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:23:43Z makomo: phoe: hey that's pretty neat. i saw that the reddit 1.0 code was out but didn't know someone made it work 2018-04-14T18:23:55Z pfdietz: What changes were needed? 2018-04-14T18:23:57Z phoe: makomo: /r/Common_Lisp had it some time ago 2018-04-14T18:24:02Z makomo: i suppose the ELS will be recorded this year too? 2018-04-14T18:24:10Z phoe: pfdietz: some code changes to make it work on non-CMUCL, reconstructing the database schema 2018-04-14T18:34:38Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:34:46Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:37:50Z Baggers left #lisp 2018-04-14T18:41:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T18:41:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:41:28Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:41:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T18:42:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:42:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T18:42:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:43:08Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:43:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T18:45:35Z trocado joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:45:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:46:09Z trocado: Is it possible to use portacle with OSX 10.6? 2018-04-14T18:46:20Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-14T18:46:31Z Shinmera: No 2018-04-14T18:47:01Z Shinmera: You might be able to compile it yourself 2018-04-14T18:47:05Z Shinmera: but I won't support it. 2018-04-14T18:47:22Z trocado: Shinmera: what's the oldest OSX it runs on? 2018-04-14T18:47:48Z Shinmera: The official releases run on 10.11 as the website states. 2018-04-14T18:48:00Z trocado: Shinmera: thanks! 2018-04-14T18:48:46Z Shinmera: Though actually the current 1.1 release was erroneously built on 10.12 and thus doesn't run on 10.11. There's a 1.1b release though that does run on 10.11: https://github.com/portacle/portacle/releases/tag/1.1b 2018-04-14T18:49:18Z Shinmera: I did build it with travis on 10.10, which works, but 10.9 gives errors from brew about it no longer being supported and I didn't want to care to try and make it work. 2018-04-14T18:49:30Z Shinmera: I don't ship 10.10 because 10.10 breaks on 10.11+, if I remember correctly. 2018-04-14T18:49:48Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T18:49:48Z Shinmera: I could ship for each OS X version but for now I'd like to avoid such a nightmare 2018-04-14T18:49:58Z Shinmera: Apple isn't making that easy though 2018-04-14T18:50:15Z trocado: Shinmera: yes, i understand 2018-04-14T18:51:51Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:52:29Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:53:00Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T18:53:10Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:54:57Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:57:22Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:57:22Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T18:59:54Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-14T19:00:43Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:02:46Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:03:55Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-14T19:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:07:18Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:08:16Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:08:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:08:39Z pfdietz: (scrolls back in log) That unicode's case mapping is not 1-1 doesn't prevent it from working with a comformant Common Lisp, I think. Those beyond-standard characters just aren't treated as having Common Lisp case. 2018-04-14T19:12:43Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:12:52Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:13:58Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:16:54Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-14T19:19:37Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:25:49Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:27:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T19:27:47Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:28:17Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:31:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:31:19Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:32:42Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:33:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:34:45Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-14T19:39:18Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:40:21Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T19:40:42Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-14T19:41:28Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:42:50Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:45:16Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:45:17Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-14T19:45:17Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:49:33Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T19:50:44Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T19:51:27Z Chream_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:53:29Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-14T19:53:57Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:03:36Z frgo: Shinmera: Are you online? Would like to ask a Q re GLOP. 2018-04-14T20:06:24Z thblt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:06:35Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T20:06:58Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T20:10:07Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:11:58Z phoe: Okay. You'll hear from me again when I'm waiting for my plane in Warsaw. Over and out. 2018-04-14T20:14:08Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T20:14:45Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:15:27Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:18:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:19:55Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:24:00Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T20:24:59Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:25:08Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T20:26:11Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:31:49Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:32:14Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:32:30Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:34:57Z grumblr joined #lisp 2018-04-14T20:35:59Z grumble quit (Quit: there ain't no second chance against the thing with forty eyes) 2018-04-14T20:36:50Z grumblr is now known as grumble 2018-04-14T20:39:22Z megalography left #lisp 2018-04-14T20:48:22Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T20:53:59Z _Mental quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-14T21:01:09Z blurgh joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:01:36Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:03:03Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T21:05:30Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:15:45Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:16:46Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:17:35Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:28:46Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:32:51Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T21:34:38Z iqubic: What is the difference between lexical and dynamic scoping in CL? 2018-04-14T21:37:57Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T21:39:19Z phoe: iqubic: (defvar *foo* 3) (defun bar () *foo*) (defun baz () (let ((*foo* 42)) (bar))) 2018-04-14T21:39:42Z iqubic: Yes, I get that. 2018-04-14T21:39:44Z phoe: (baz) ;=> 42 2018-04-14T21:40:08Z iqubic: Sure, that's just variavble shadowing. 2018-04-14T21:40:43Z drunk_foxx[m]: Lexical scope: let, defun, lambda, let over lambda, let over lambda over let over lambda, etc. 2018-04-14T21:40:44Z drunk_foxx[m]: Dynamic scope - special variables (defined with defvar), and their value can be "overwritten" within the lexical scope 2018-04-14T21:40:58Z drunk_foxx[m]: Let over Lambda by Doug Hoyte has some great chapter about that 2018-04-14T21:41:04Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T21:41:15Z iqubic: I don't own the book. Is it availible online? 2018-04-14T21:41:33Z phoe: iqubic: no, it is NOT variable shadowing. 2018-04-14T21:41:40Z drunk_foxx[m]: First 6 chapters are for free on his website (including the one about lexical and dynamic scoping) 2018-04-14T21:42:28Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/toc 2018-04-14T21:42:36Z phoe: shadowing is (let ((foo 2)) (let ((foo 4)) foo)) 2018-04-14T21:43:17Z iqubic: (defun counter (starting-val) (let ((x starting-val)) (lambda () (+1 x)))) 2018-04-14T21:43:32Z phoe: yes, that is a closure. 2018-04-14T21:43:36Z iqubic: sorry about the formating. But does my thing work? 2018-04-14T21:43:51Z iqubic: It's basically a counter that has a variable starting value. 2018-04-14T21:43:58Z phoe: note that neither BAZ nor BAR close over *FOO*. 2018-04-14T21:44:10Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:44:14Z iqubic: why don't they? 2018-04-14T21:44:27Z phoe: kinda, replace 1+ with INCF. 2018-04-14T21:44:52Z iqubic: Wht do you have to do that? So that the value of x is updated? 2018-04-14T21:45:29Z phoe: iqubic: they do not need to. *FOO* is a special variable, as proclaimed by DEFVAR. it means that now all bindings of that symbol are dynamic. 2018-04-14T21:45:33Z phoe: iqubic: yep 2018-04-14T21:45:56Z pfdietz: Lexical shadowing is shadowing according to position in the code. Dynamic variable shadowing is according to position in the stack. 2018-04-14T21:46:10Z phoe: basically, dynamic scope means that you can "shadow" the- yes, exactly this 2018-04-14T21:46:21Z iqubic: So my let over lambda thing really confuses me. Why does that work? 2018-04-14T21:46:34Z phoe: iqubic: why would it not? 2018-04-14T21:46:42Z pfdietz: (let ((x 1)) (defun foo () x) (defun bar () (let ((x 2)) (foo)))) 2018-04-14T21:46:54Z iqubic: What is that doing? 2018-04-14T21:46:57Z pfdietz: (bar) ==> 1 if x is not special, (bar) ==> 2 if it is. 2018-04-14T21:47:08Z phoe: lexical scoping example 2018-04-14T21:47:19Z iqubic: pfdietz: That breaks my brain. 2018-04-14T21:47:43Z iqubic: Why does the way x is declared have anything to do with the output of that? 2018-04-14T21:47:56Z phoe: take your time with that concept. (: 2018-04-14T21:47:59Z pfdietz: It affects how the value of X is determined in foo. 2018-04-14T21:48:12Z phoe: it;s not trivial to get it at first. 2018-04-14T21:48:16Z pfdietz: If x is special, it goes and grabs it from (symbol-value 'x) (essentially). 2018-04-14T21:48:21Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-14T21:48:22Z iqubic: I see. 2018-04-14T21:48:45Z iqubic: And if x is not special it gets the value from the scope x is defined in? 2018-04-14T21:48:53Z phoe: yes 2018-04-14T21:48:57Z iqubic: I see. 2018-04-14T21:49:06Z phoe: or rather 2018-04-14T21:49:14Z iqubic: Lisp is weird and odd. 2018-04-14T21:49:20Z phoe: if it is lexical, its value comes from scope. 2018-04-14T21:49:24Z pfdietz: In the lexical case the symbol 'x' goes away entirely, typically, except if the compiler has kept the name around for debugging and such. 2018-04-14T21:49:42Z phoe: if it is dynamic, ot xomes from the last binding on the stack. 2018-04-14T21:50:18Z pfdietz: Think of special variables as global variables that have controlled lifetimes. 2018-04-14T21:50:51Z pfdietz: The binding starts the lifetime, and leaving the binding form ends it. 2018-04-14T21:51:12Z pfdietz: I believe they are also typically thread-local, although that's not in the standard. 2018-04-14T21:51:29Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:51:53Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T21:53:10Z loginoob joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:54:58Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-14T21:57:08Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T21:59:05Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:00:20Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:04:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:05:26Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:05:42Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:06:56Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-14T22:07:12Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:10:16Z loginoob quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-14T22:12:22Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:12:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:16:57Z sindan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T22:20:54Z doanyway left #lisp 2018-04-14T22:21:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:21:52Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:23:10Z comborico joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:26:35Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:26:37Z comborico: Can't find the answer to this: 9 / 4 . nine is the dividend, four is the divisor, 2 is the quotient, and one is the remainder. But what is it called when you carry the remainder over to as in 2 1/4? 2018-04-14T22:27:26Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:30:00Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's a complex fraction 2018-04-14T22:32:31Z comborico: It doesn't have a special name in relation to division? 2018-04-14T22:33:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:37:39Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T22:37:59Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:40:56Z Arcaelyx_ is now known as Arcaelyx 2018-04-14T22:42:11Z BlackSwanApp joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:42:21Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:42:22Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:42:54Z BlackSwanApp quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-14T22:48:34Z comborico1611 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:49:27Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:49:44Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T22:51:44Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-14T22:54:27Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:55:35Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:56:27Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:57:59Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:57:59Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-14T22:57:59Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-14T22:59:27Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:00:11Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:00:27Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:03:55Z tokamach quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-14T23:04:19Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:04:21Z tokamach is now known as hutchy 2018-04-14T23:07:31Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:09:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:13:00Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:13:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:18:30Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:23:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:26:32Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:26:34Z Chream_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T23:26:54Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:28:26Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-14T23:31:44Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:32:37Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:33:54Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-14T23:37:04Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:37:25Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:38:10Z aeth: comborico: 2 1/4 is a mixed fraction or mixed number. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraction_(mathematics)#Mixed_numbers 2018-04-14T23:38:25Z aeth: (or mixed numeral!) 2018-04-14T23:38:56Z aeth: Three names on Wikipedia. The one I learned (a very long time ago) was "mixed fraction" iirc. 2018-04-14T23:39:13Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T23:40:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:40:47Z comborico: aeth: Mixed fraction sounds better. 2018-04-14T23:42:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:43:01Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:43:15Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:44:19Z ddrbt quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-14T23:45:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:51:13Z nbhauke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:52:44Z nbhauke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-14T23:52:44Z nbhauke_ is now known as nbhauke 2018-04-14T23:56:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-14T23:56:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:58:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:58:47Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-14T23:58:58Z SenasOzys_ joined #lisp 2018-04-14T23:59:14Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:00:01Z kozy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T00:00:40Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:01:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:02:50Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:02:51Z krwq joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:05:01Z comborico quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-15T00:06:43Z krwq: are there any good libraries for 2d matrices (not expecting larger matrices than 1000x1000), only need multiplication, addition and some kind of elementiwise map? I've tried magicl but it seems super unfinished, and supporting only complex matrices although seems like it's under development and calls into lapack 2018-04-15T00:07:23Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:07:57Z JohanP` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:09:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:09:46Z krwq: I'm starting to look at https://github.com/tpapp/lla - anyone has tried? 2018-04-15T00:11:18Z krwq: nvm, seems like author is not supporting it anymore :/ 2018-04-15T00:15:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:16:00Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T00:16:34Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:16:47Z pierpa: if you only need these 3 operatiions, then it's a few minutes job to write your own. 2018-04-15T00:17:23Z krwq: pierpa: I do not want naive multiplication, that will be super slow 2018-04-15T00:17:45Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-15T00:17:47Z SenasOzys_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T00:18:07Z krwq: pierpa: for small matrices I'm fine with that, but 1000x1000 that will be forever 2018-04-15T00:18:26Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:19:07Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T00:19:30Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:20:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:21:04Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T00:21:21Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:21:37Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:22:19Z pierpa: I'm not sure that for 1000x1000 matrices, sophisticated methods are faster. Are you better informed than me about this? 2018-04-15T00:22:27Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:22:33Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T00:23:00Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:23:10Z krwq: pierpa: that should be n^2*log(n) not n^2 2018-04-15T00:24:23Z krwq: pierpa: i think :P 2018-04-15T00:24:24Z pierpa: it looks like that for 1000x1000 Strassen may be useful, according to https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22807065/where-is-strassens-matrix-multiplication-useful 2018-04-15T00:27:17Z JohanP` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:27:38Z krwq: pierpa: seems like n^2.373 is the fastest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppersmith%E2%80%93Winograd_algorithm 2018-04-15T00:27:47Z krwq: might not be worth for 1000x1000 though 2018-04-15T00:28:05Z krwq: considering the constant and stuff 2018-04-15T00:28:06Z pierpa: but not all algorithms are practical 2018-04-15T00:28:09Z hutchy quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-15T00:28:27Z siraben` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:28:45Z pierpa: we talked about this exact topic here some months ago, let me search back... 2018-04-15T00:29:07Z krwq: I think naive might do in this case unless there is some ready solution then I'd go with that 2018-04-15T00:29:15Z krwq: clem seems to have naive implementation for most of the operations 2018-04-15T00:29:32Z pfdietz: Yeah, you have to be careful with algorithms. Constants matter, sometimes more than non-constant factors. 2018-04-15T00:29:49Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:30:16Z krwq: ok, going with naive until it will start being too annoying 2018-04-15T00:30:38Z krwq: after that probably will contribute to magicl as blas/lapack would be nice 2018-04-15T00:30:55Z siraben` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T00:31:03Z pfdietz: For matrices the bigger wins are in exploiting sparsity, and in block-structuring the computation to take advantage of caches (and also pipelining). 2018-04-15T00:31:18Z krwq: pfdietz: mine is not going to be sparse, I'm sure about it 2018-04-15T00:31:20Z siraben` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:31:30Z krwq: pfdietz: I might be able to use smaller matrix though 2018-04-15T00:31:56Z krwq: pfdietz: or couple of smaller at least 2018-04-15T00:32:11Z siraben` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T00:32:53Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:33:47Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:34:48Z pierpa: krwq: how fast is at multiplying 1000x1000 something that must be optimized for this, say, matlab or mathematica? 2018-04-15T00:35:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:35:28Z pierpa: you could tae this as a benchmark to see how far you are from *practically* optimal 2018-04-15T00:35:34Z pierpa: *take 2018-04-15T00:35:48Z krwq: pierpa: do not have matlab at this point, I remember back when I used it it was fairly instant, it's a good point 2018-04-15T00:35:59Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-15T00:36:05Z krwq: I'll test with Octave once I implement the rest 2018-04-15T00:36:19Z krwq: unfortunatelly times when I got matlab for free are finished 2018-04-15T00:36:20Z pierpa: k 2018-04-15T00:37:07Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:39:08Z JohanP` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:39:36Z pfdietz: There was some excitement in combinatorics a couple of years ago related to a problem that had implications for matrix multiplicaton. 2018-04-15T00:40:05Z pfdietz: If the conjecture (the Erdos-Szemeredi Sunflower Conjecture) had been false, it could have been possible to multiply matrices in O(n^2) operations. 2018-04-15T00:40:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:40:20Z pfdietz: But someone proved the conjecture, so that doesn't work. 2018-04-15T00:41:10Z pfdietz: The proof of the conjecture was kind of magical, though. 2018-04-15T00:42:28Z krwq: pfdietz: what is that conjecture about? 2018-04-15T00:45:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:47:50Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T00:48:45Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:50:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T00:56:22Z patrixl joined #lisp 2018-04-15T00:57:15Z patrixl quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T01:02:26Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T01:05:09Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T01:05:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T01:08:11Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T01:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T01:10:51Z rtypo joined 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2018-04-15T03:41:50Z JohanP` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T03:43:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T03:43:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T03:46:13Z doanyway left #lisp 2018-04-15T03:47:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T03:51:12Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T03:51:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T03:55:56Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T03:56:34Z JohanP` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T03:57:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T03:57:36Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-15T03:58:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T03:59:13Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:01:19Z pfdietz: The conjecture was this. 2018-04-15T04:01:26Z JohanP` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:01:48Z pfdietz: A 3-sunflower is a triple of distinct sets such that the pairwise intersection of each of the three pairs equals the intersection of all three. 2018-04-15T04:01:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:02:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:02:27Z pfdietz: E-S conjecture said that a sunflower-free collection of subsets of {1,...,n} has size O(c^n) for some constant c strictly less than 2. 2018-04-15T04:02:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:02:52Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-15T04:03:03Z pfdietz: The result established the conjecture for c = 1.88... 2018-04-15T04:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:05:05Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:05:09Z JohanP` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T04:07:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:07:34Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:07:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:10:34Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:12:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:14:05Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:15:27Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:18:44Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:23:37Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T04:24:32Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:26:44Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:26:50Z krwq joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:27:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:27:48Z krwq: could someone explain this? (array-element-type (make-array '(2 3) :element-type 'float)) => T 2018-04-15T04:29:25Z krwq: also tried with :initial-element 0.0 and getting the same 2018-04-15T04:30:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T04:32:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:32:07Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-15T04:32:09Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:32:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:32:51Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:33:37Z pfdietz: Which implementation is that in? 2018-04-15T04:34:10Z krwq: sbcl 2018-04-15T04:34:14Z pfdietz: You might try (upgraded-array-element-type 'float), see what that says. 2018-04-15T04:34:16Z krwq: does it depend on optimization settings? 2018-04-15T04:34:20Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:34:55Z krwq: (upgraded-array-element-type 'float) => T 2018-04-15T04:35:45Z krwq: is possibly because of? (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1))) 2018-04-15T04:35:49Z pfdietz: Ok, there is no specialized array for element type float. There IS for single-float or double-float. But float is a union of the various float types. 2018-04-15T04:35:59Z pfdietz: Optimization settings have nothing to do with it. 2018-04-15T04:36:15Z krwq: pfdietz: I see - thanks! how do you figure it out? 2018-04-15T04:36:28Z pfdietz: If you tell SBCL you want arrays that can store any float type, it will give you an array that can store any values whatsoever. 2018-04-15T04:37:04Z pfdietz: upgraded-array-element-type gives the 'least' element type that an implementation has that will support a given type. 2018-04-15T04:37:48Z pfdietz: T is the type of all values (the top of the type lattice) 2018-04-15T04:37:49Z krwq: pfdietz: and how do you know what implementation supports (or spec requires)? is it possible to add your own specialization? 2018-04-15T04:38:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:38:11Z pfdietz: No, it's not. To figure it out, you can call upgraded-array-element-type. 2018-04-15T04:38:20Z pfdietz: Also -- documentation! 2018-04-15T04:39:20Z pfdietz: A conforming implmentation must support arrays of certains types (bits, chars, base-chars, T), but can support more. There are some constraints. 2018-04-15T04:39:21Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:39:39Z krwq: pfdietz: which part of doc says that? I'm looking at make-array now 2018-04-15T04:40:12Z pfdietz: Look at 15.1.2 2018-04-15T04:40:21Z pfdietz: Of CLHS 2018-04-15T04:41:45Z pfdietz: Correction: base-chars may be upgraded to just char. 2018-04-15T04:41:56Z krwq: 15.1.2.2? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/15_abb.htm 2018-04-15T04:42:04Z pfdietz: Those sections yes 2018-04-15T04:42:04Z krwq: this doesn't mention single-float 2018-04-15T04:42:09Z pfdietz: Right. 2018-04-15T04:42:25Z krwq: so this is implementation specific? 2018-04-15T04:42:31Z pfdietz: No conforming implementation is required to support arrays specialized to hold single-floats. 2018-04-15T04:42:40Z pfdietz: SBCL does, however. 2018-04-15T04:42:49Z pfdietz: And you can figure this out using upgraded-array-element-type 2018-04-15T04:42:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T04:43:12Z krwq: ok now it makes sense, would be nice to be able to extend this 2018-04-15T04:43:18Z krwq: thanks pfdietz 2018-04-15T04:43:21Z pfdietz: (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) ==> single-float in x86-64 SBCL 2018-04-15T04:44:18Z loke: interesting... (upgraded-array-element-type 'double-float) ⇒ DOUBLE-FLOAT 2018-04-15T04:44:35Z loke: How big is a double-float in SBCL? 2018-04-15T04:44:52Z krwq: loke: i'd be betting twice as big as float 2018-04-15T04:45:09Z pierpa: not mandated 2018-04-15T04:45:44Z loke: No., it seems to be 64 bits 2018-04-15T04:45:54Z loke: most-positive-long-float ⇒ 1.7976931348623157d308 2018-04-15T04:46:10Z loke: (same as double-float) 2018-04-15T04:46:33Z pierpa: though, I think all modern implementations implements single-floats and double-floats as their corresponding IEEE sizes 2018-04-15T04:46:33Z loke: Ah wait... single-float is 32 bit i guess. 2018-04-15T04:46:49Z loke: pierpa: Right, that seems to be precisely what SBCL does. 2018-04-15T04:47:18Z pierpa: afaik, only clisp and 32-bit lispworks differ 2018-04-15T04:47:46Z pierpa: I mean, have more then the two IEEE sizes 2018-04-15T04:48:12Z loke: This one is a little more surprising: (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 300)) ⇒ (UNSIGNED-BYTE 15) 2018-04-15T04:48:26Z loke: Why 15? 2018-04-15T04:48:58Z loke: (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 33000)) ⇒ (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) 2018-04-15T04:49:22Z pfdietz: Ah! 2018-04-15T04:49:35Z pfdietz: That's because of a constraint on array element upgrading. 2018-04-15T04:50:04Z pfdietz: u-a-e-t must respect the type lattice. 2018-04-15T04:50:39Z pfdietz: If T1 is a (recognizable) subtype of T2, then (u-a-e-t T1) must be a subtype of (u-a-e-t T2). 2018-04-15T04:50:54Z pfdietz: Now, SBCL supports arrays of signed and unsigned 16 bit integers. 2018-04-15T04:51:12Z pfdietz: So, what is the upgraded type of (unsigned-byte 15)? 2018-04-15T04:51:32Z pfdietz: It has to be a subtype of both (unsigned-buyte 16) and of (signed-byte 16). 2018-04-15T04:51:45Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:52:04Z pfdietz: In other words, SBCL must also support (unsigned-byte 15) as an actual array element type. 2018-04-15T04:52:13Z pierpa: aha! 2018-04-15T04:52:31Z pierpa: crazy CL :) 2018-04-15T04:52:37Z FareTower: lovely piece of language lawyering! 2018-04-15T04:52:40Z pfdietz: This also has the bizarre consequence that conforming lisps must have arrays with element type NIL. 2018-04-15T04:53:17Z pfdietz: They are required to support actual array elememt types of char and bit, and the intersection of those types is nil. 2018-04-15T04:53:33Z FareTower: so... the types of specialized arrays must form a lattice? 2018-04-15T04:54:09Z pfdietz: Yes. This is required by the standard, at least for recognizable subtypes. Obviously it can't be done in general for SATISFIES types without solving the halting problem. 2018-04-15T04:58:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T04:59:36Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:02:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:02:28Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-15T05:04:52Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:05:04Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:08:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:12:48Z pfdietz: Excuse me, base-char and bit. 2018-04-15T05:13:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:14:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:14:04Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:14:31Z igemnace quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T05:15:04Z loke: You can have an array type NIL, but I guess one of the dimensions must be zero? 2018-04-15T05:15:11Z FareTower: nope 2018-04-15T05:15:17Z FareTower: fields can be uninitialized 2018-04-15T05:15:43Z FareTower: with fill-pointer 0 2018-04-15T05:21:06Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:21:08Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T05:23:17Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:23:57Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:25:16Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:25:49Z ldbeth_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:27:27Z flazh1 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:28:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:28:39Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:31:17Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:33:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:33:35Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:36:41Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:39:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:41:40Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T05:41:50Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:43:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:45:02Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:45:26Z phoe_air joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:46:11Z phoe_air: I'm waiting at the Warsaw airport for antoszka, his friend, and p_l. 2018-04-15T05:48:34Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:49:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:49:26Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T05:49:35Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T05:53:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:53:27Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:54:21Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:55:00Z FareTower: phoe_air, heading to Marbella, Spain ? 2018-04-15T05:55:12Z phoe_air: FareTower: yes 2018-04-15T05:55:31Z phoe_air: jackdaniel is also coming, so it's at least five of us Polish people heading towards ELS. 2018-04-15T05:56:00Z FareTower: jackdaniel is already there, AFAICT. 2018-04-15T05:56:12Z FareTower: I miss you guys. Next year I hope. 2018-04-15T05:58:32Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T05:59:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:00:52Z phoe_air: oh right! He is already there, he posted photos. (; 2018-04-15T06:01:09Z phoe_air: FareTower: miss you too. See you next year! 2018-04-15T06:04:22Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:04:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:05:50Z antoszka: phoe_air: Cezary and I are planning to arrive at the airport around 9. 2018-04-15T06:06:01Z antoszka: phoe_air: How's the (passenger) traffic? 2018-04-15T06:06:59Z p_l: No jams on Żwirki I Wigury 2018-04-15T06:07:21Z p_l goes past the military port right now 2018-04-15T06:07:52Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:07:55Z phoe_air: antoszka: very low when I was travelling, and I arrived here between 6 and 7. 2018-04-15T06:08:15Z phoe_air: I'm sitting by gates 25-26, right next to where our plane leaves. 2018-04-15T06:08:19Z antoszka: phoe_air: Ack, hope we're not too late ;) 2018-04-15T06:10:13Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:11:01Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:11:30Z phoe_air: antoszka: no 2018-04-15T06:11:41Z phoe_air: the boarding stops at 09:50 AFAIR 2018-04-15T06:11:42Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:11:50Z phoe_air: so you'll be just on time if you arrive at 9 2018-04-15T06:13:08Z epony quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-15T06:13:29Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:14:23Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:14:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:16:17Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:18:12Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:19:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:19:41Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:20:35Z p_l: antoszka: if there is too much traffic at the security, grab vouchers from lost&found office and go through premium 2018-04-15T06:21:22Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:21:24Z phoe_air: p_l: woah, seriously? 2018-04-15T06:21:35Z phoe_air: #hax 2018-04-15T06:21:40Z makomo: haha 2018-04-15T06:21:42Z makomo: morning 2018-04-15T06:21:46Z phoe_air: hey makomo 2018-04-15T06:21:53Z p_l: 35 PLN per voucher 2018-04-15T06:22:23Z p_l: Hax is when you social engineer yourself to go through premium line without a voucher 2018-04-15T06:22:24Z makomo: phoe_air: how come you came almost 3 hours early? didn't want to risk anything? :D 2018-04-15T06:22:42Z nmajo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T06:23:42Z phoe_air: makomo: no, bus schedule from Cracow 2018-04-15T06:23:52Z phoe_air: this is the latest one that would not be too late. 2018-04-15T06:24:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:25:13Z makomo: oh i see 2018-04-15T06:25:14Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T06:27:39Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:28:15Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:29:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:29:54Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:30:56Z p_l has such a premium hack working in Heathrow 2018-04-15T06:31:07Z p_l: antoszka: security is not too bad today 2018-04-15T06:31:52Z p_l: phoe_air: raise your hand please xD 2018-04-15T06:32:54Z p_l needs to get a lisp shirt for next time 2018-04-15T06:33:00Z phoe_air: p_l: 2018-04-15T06:34:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:35:10Z JohanP`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:39:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:41:06Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:44:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:44:37Z nmajo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T06:49:15Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:49:51Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:50:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:50:40Z JohanP`` joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:51:07Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:51:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-15T06:51:26Z phoe_air: Hey beach! 2018-04-15T06:51:26Z JohanP`` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T06:51:53Z beach: "air"? 2018-04-15T06:52:30Z phoe_air: About to take an airplane, yep. 2018-04-15T06:52:47Z phoe_air: And I can't SSH into my main IRC session so I can talk as phoe. 2018-04-15T06:52:56Z beach: I see, yes. 2018-04-15T06:53:17Z phoe_air: Airport WiFi does not allow SSH connection for some silly reasons. I must expose some kind of SSH tunnel. 2018-04-15T06:53:33Z phoe_air: As in, I must expose it one day when I come back, so I can connect via port 443 or something. 2018-04-15T06:55:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T06:56:23Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-15T06:56:31Z p_l: beach: good morning :-) 2018-04-15T06:57:06Z beach: What route are you guys taking again? 2018-04-15T07:00:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:00:30Z p_l: WAW-FRA-AGP 2018-04-15T07:00:44Z p_l: 1800 arrival in Malaga 2018-04-15T07:01:03Z beach: You'll be tired. 2018-04-15T07:01:23Z p_l: I exceptionally so 2018-04-15T07:01:28Z phoe_air: Of course we will. 2018-04-15T07:01:34Z p_l: Last two weeks were hell 2018-04-15T07:01:48Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that. 2018-04-15T07:01:51Z beach: What happened?> 2018-04-15T07:02:10Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:02:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:04:48Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:05:00Z p_l: beach: grandfather died, this caused an avalanche of events that had me running ragged 2018-04-15T07:05:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:05:36Z jackdaniel: beach: are you attending todays excursion to Ronda? 2018-04-15T07:05:52Z beach: jackdaniel: No, we decided to skip that. 2018-04-15T07:06:04Z beach: p_l: Oh, that's bad. 2018-04-15T07:06:19Z nmajo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-15T07:07:12Z pyx joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:07:14Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T07:07:25Z White_Flame: is there a reasonably faster way to get the string representation of an object through a custom print-object method than (format nil "~a" obj) ? 2018-04-15T07:07:46Z White_Flame: this is in the middle of my I/O routines, so it smells a bit to use full FORMAT 2018-04-15T07:09:44Z p_l: Call print-object directly? 2018-04-15T07:09:45Z jackdaniel: depends on what print-object uses. you may use princ in the print-object method and you'll avoid format that way 2018-04-15T07:10:24Z White_Flame: p_l: yeah, if I also set up a string stream 2018-04-15T07:10:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:10:52Z White_Flame: actually, I remembered write-to-string, and that does the print-object formatting, so that seems to be a reasonable thing to use for this purpose 2018-04-15T07:11:09Z ophan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:11:21Z White_Flame: rubber duck question asking 2018-04-15T07:15:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:20:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:21:57Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:25:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:27:40Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:28:09Z pyface joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:29:10Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T07:29:50Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:30:27Z megalography quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-15T07:30:35Z nmajo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-15T07:32:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:35:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:39:06Z ldbeth_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-15T07:41:00Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:47:24Z phoe_air quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:50:18Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T07:50:32Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-15T07:50:33Z nmajo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-15T07:55:05Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-15T07:56:54Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:03:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:04:11Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:05:14Z beach: Some time ago, someone here mentioned a commercial development system for a proprietary language, and that company went bust. But now I can't remember the name of the company. And I can't seem to find it in the logs. 2018-04-15T08:05:20Z beach: Any hints? 2018-04-15T08:07:41Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:10:21Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-15T08:12:10Z beach: Got it: Rebol 2018-04-15T08:13:01Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:17:19Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-15T08:19:12Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-15T08:24:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T08:28:35Z patrixl joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:30:35Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T08:36:14Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:37:23Z patrixl quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.91)) 2018-04-15T08:42:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T08:42:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:46:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-15T08:52:49Z Shinmera: Just arrived at Marbella in case anyone's around! 2018-04-15T08:54:33Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T08:57:18Z SAL9000: On my way to Marbella, flight arrives in Malaga at 16:35 2018-04-15T08:58:15Z Shinmera: SAL9000: Definitely want to meet up with you, let me know when you're settled in. 2018-04-15T08:58:36Z SAL9000: Will do! :) 2018-04-15T09:00:27Z FareTower: beach: I believe famous MIT Schemer Joe Marshall wrote a compiler for REBOL. Despite REBOL being super dynamic, you could optimize for the common case and fall back to the meta-level if that failed. 2018-04-15T09:01:18Z makomo: a bit of trivia: the game Machinarium used REBOL for its game scripting iirc 2018-04-15T09:01:20Z EviX joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:01:27Z makomo: that's where i first heard of REBOL 2018-04-15T09:02:10Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:02:45Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:05:50Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-15T09:06:13Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T09:06:30Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:08:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:08:40Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:10:05Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:11:36Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:13:53Z milanj_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:13:54Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:14:47Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:15:19Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T09:15:58Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:17:15Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:17:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:17:45Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:18:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:18:57Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:19:26Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:20:11Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:20:15Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:21:36Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:22:42Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T09:25:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:26:41Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:27:49Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-15T09:30:22Z CodeOrangutan joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:31:58Z SaganMan is now known as KawaiiNoises 2018-04-15T09:48:14Z CodeOrangutan quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-15T09:50:54Z EviX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T09:51:24Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-15T09:55:23Z SlowJimmy quit (Quit: good bye cruel world) 2018-04-15T09:56:45Z elfmacs quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-15T10:00:42Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:00:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:01:58Z razieliyo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:02:46Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:04:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:05:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:05:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T10:06:14Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:06:19Z elfmacs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T10:07:57Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:10:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:13:13Z blurgh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-15T10:15:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:19:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:21:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:21:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:23:57Z Xof: I'm on my way to Marbella! I arrive in Malaga at about the same time as SAL9000 (maybe we're on the same flight?) 2018-04-15T10:24:12Z Xof: Marbella at about 19:00 if the bus timetable is to be believed 2018-04-15T10:24:48Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:25:39Z Xof: I will try to check in here once I get to Marbella; I'll probably be hungry 2018-04-15T10:26:33Z Xof: so if anyone knows where I should go to meet up and get food, please leave instructions here! 2018-04-15T10:29:10Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:29:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:31:44Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:32:42Z galdor2 is now known as galdor 2018-04-15T10:39:10Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T10:40:13Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:44:45Z lonjil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T10:46:43Z lonjil joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:48:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T10:49:07Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T10:49:43Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:01:05Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:04:09Z SAL9000: Xof: ARN-AGP, Norwegian Airlines 2018-04-15T11:05:27Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:07:14Z philippe joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:10:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:13:57Z nmajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:14:18Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:14:40Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:16:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:16:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:19:11Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:20:29Z elfmacs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:21:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:21:11Z nmajo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T11:26:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:27:31Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:28:16Z python476 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T11:30:40Z Chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:30:56Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:31:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:31:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:35:12Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T11:37:26Z nmajo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T11:40:11Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T11:42:57Z tokamach quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2018-04-15T13:41:22Z makomo: beach: i've only joined the lisp community a month or two ago :-) 2018-04-15T13:41:27Z beach: makomo: Sorry to hear that. 2018-04-15T13:41:53Z makomo: heh :-), i hope i'll be there one day 2018-04-15T13:42:00Z beach: Definitely. 2018-04-15T13:42:01Z makomo: would be nice to meet you all 2018-04-15T13:42:40Z Shinmera: beach: I might be just a little bit biased but I'd probably prefer a conference in Zürich ;) 2018-04-15T13:43:08Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T13:43:11Z beach: Shinmera: You can make it happen. 2018-04-15T13:43:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T13:43:49Z makomo: will the conference be recorded this year too? 2018-04-15T13:43:56Z beach: So they say. 2018-04-15T13:44:16Z makomo: great! 2018-04-15T13:48:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T13:50:11Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T13:51:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T13:53:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T13:53:17Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T13:53:29Z beach: makomo: However, the most important part of a conference like this is not the talks, but the direct discussions with other participants. 2018-04-15T13:53:58Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-15T13:54:16Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T13:54:31Z beach: Shinmera: If you hurry up, you could propose your services, and that way we would not have to be co-organized with as has been proposed. 2018-04-15T13:54:44Z SAL9000: Shinmera: Only one problem there -- we're not taking the bus. 2018-04-15T13:54:52Z Shinmera: SAL9000: oh? Why not? 2018-04-15T13:55:10Z Shinmera: beach: I don't know that I'm ready for that. 2018-04-15T13:55:17Z beach: :( 2018-04-15T13:55:18Z makomo: beach: i agree. however, it's the only thing from ELS that i have access to, since i can't be physically there 2018-04-15T13:55:42Z beach: makomo: Sure. Just encouraging you to attend next time. 2018-04-15T13:55:44Z makomo: at least this time, that is 2018-04-15T13:55:49Z makomo: :-) 2018-04-15T13:55:54Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T13:56:46Z beach: Shinmera: We took a taxi from our hotel in Málaga. It wasn't terribly expensive, and it was a lot easier than to first go to the bus station, take the bus, then get from the bus station to our hotel. 2018-04-15T13:57:14Z beach: It must be even less expensive from the airport in Málaga to Marbella. 2018-04-15T13:57:16Z Shinmera: Sure, but the bus station is literally in front of the airport, so it's very convenient 2018-04-15T13:57:29Z Shinmera: cost 8€ for a ticket. 2018-04-15T13:57:44Z beach: Fair enough. 2018-04-15T13:57:57Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-15T13:58:50Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T14:00:06Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:00:21Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:02:00Z Shinmera: o 2018-04-15T14:02:05Z Shinmera: Whoops 2018-04-15T14:02:26Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-15T14:02:29Z minion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-15T14:03:35Z specbot joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:03:35Z minion joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:08:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:09:42Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:11:35Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:15:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:16:10Z p_l: beach: How much was the taxi? 2018-04-15T14:17:45Z beach: 80€ 2018-04-15T14:17:52Z p_l: also, hello from flight LH1150 from Frankfurt to Malaga :) 2018-04-15T14:17:58Z pfdietz: I hope it's nice and warm there. Freezing rain here near Chicago. 2018-04-15T14:18:10Z Shinmera: Colleen: weather in marbella 2018-04-15T14:18:11Z Colleen: Weather in Marbella: Clear at 22°C, 50% humidity, 4km/h wind, 1019hPa pressure. 2018-04-15T14:18:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T14:18:19Z beach: p_l: From the center of Málaga, which is further than the airport. 2018-04-15T14:19:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:22:10Z beach: pfdietz: It is totally gorgeous. 2018-04-15T14:22:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:23:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:23:31Z p_l: having spent last week in London, just the weather in Warsaw was gorgeous, and according to jackdaniels the weather in Marbella is similar 2018-04-15T14:23:43Z Shinmera: https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/985447730737766400 2018-04-15T14:23:52Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T14:25:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T14:25:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:26:38Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:27:30Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-15T14:29:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:33:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:35:52Z Nouv joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:36:42Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:39:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:40:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:41:12Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T14:41:30Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:41:49Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T14:42:53Z jjkola joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:43:07Z jjkola: hi 2018-04-15T14:43:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:45:06Z beach: Hello jjkola. 2018-04-15T14:46:44Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:48:26Z Bronsa` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:49:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:54:12Z Xof: Shinmera: wow, thanks. I've now landed and am waiting for the airport bus, which leaves at 18:00 2018-04-15T14:54:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T14:54:23Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-15T14:54:42Z Xof: I think it arrives at the bus station ~50 minutes later 2018-04-15T14:55:05Z Shinmera: Yes, takes around 45-55 minutes 2018-04-15T14:56:01Z Xof: excellent 2018-04-15T14:56:04Z Xof: see you shortly, then 2018-04-15T14:56:31Z Shinmera: Somewhat shortly :) 2018-04-15T14:56:42Z Shinmera: Remember that Spain is in CEST, not GMT 2018-04-15T14:58:31Z Shinmera: So, just to be sure, does your bus leave 18:00 CEST (in an hour) or 17:00 CEST (now) 2018-04-15T14:58:54Z Xof: in an hour 2018-04-15T14:58:59Z Shinmera: Alright. 2018-04-15T14:59:12Z Xof: I have already adjusted to spanish notions of "soon" as well as spanish notions of time 2018-04-15T14:59:19Z Shinmera: Hah! 2018-04-15T14:59:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:01:18Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:03:30Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:04:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:06:17Z Xof: also: wow this is the first sunshine I've seen in months 2018-04-15T15:09:10Z Nouv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T15:10:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:10:07Z Shinmera: Is it that bad in the UK? 2018-04-15T15:10:55Z p_l: Shinmera: I've spent last week in London, it was constantly half-raining and even when it wasn't, above ~100m there was monolithic gray sky 2018-04-15T15:10:59Z Xof: grey. Just grey. Lots and lots of grey. (I probably exaggerate, a bit) 2018-04-15T15:11:11Z Shinmera: Yeesh 2018-04-15T15:11:30Z p_l: like Xof is saying - Grey. Lots and lots of grey 2018-04-15T15:11:35Z ebrasca: Can you move files from one directory to other with rename-file ? 2018-04-15T15:11:39Z p_l: enough grey to drain colours from the city 2018-04-15T15:11:41Z Shinmera: ebrasca: yes 2018-04-15T15:12:22Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Note that rename-file is likely going to fail if you try to rename across devices. 2018-04-15T15:14:04Z ebrasca: Shinmera: I am implementing rename-file for my implementation of fat32 in mezzano. 2018-04-15T15:14:26Z p_l: ebrasca: please please do it through VFS 2018-04-15T15:14:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:15:00Z ebrasca: p_l: What is VFS ? 2018-04-15T15:15:13Z p_l: ebrasca: Virtual File System 2018-04-15T15:15:32Z ebrasca: p_l: I don't understand how to do it with VFS. 2018-04-15T15:15:34Z p_l: generalized name for a layer that sits in between actual filesystem implementations and what the software uses 2018-04-15T15:15:41Z beach: p_l: And Mezzano already has that? 2018-04-15T15:16:07Z p_l: beach: it's more a plea to consider it now, rather than try to retrofit it, because the latter is much harder 2018-04-15T15:17:25Z p_l: a minimal VFS in CL could be a function that extracts "device" from a CL path and calls apropriate generic method with it as argument for specialization 2018-04-15T15:17:46Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:17:54Z ebrasca: p_l: I think mezzano have someting like it. 2018-04-15T15:18:37Z ebrasca: p_l: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/supervisor/disk.lisp 2018-04-15T15:18:47Z p_l: beach: an interesting case - MIT-derived Lisp machines didn't have proper separation of filesystem-related components, this resulted in some file-related applications to be so tightly bound to LMFS they didn't work without it 2018-04-15T15:19:17Z p_l: ebrasca: that's a general disk interface 2018-04-15T15:20:02Z beach: I see. 2018-04-15T15:20:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:20:47Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:20:52Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:21:10Z p_l: Damn, now I wish I actually had managed to take a proper time off for ELS, cause I feel an itch to sit down and write that VFS for you :) 2018-04-15T15:21:22Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:22:04Z ebrasca: p_l: Is this VFS https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/file/fs.lisp ? 2018-04-15T15:23:14Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:23:54Z p_l: ebrasca: looks like a start - though it uses HOST as distinguishing component of the path, and you might want to have multiple devices at a host 2018-04-15T15:24:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:24:59Z kotrcka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:25:42Z ebrasca: p_l: I use host as partition name/disk name. 2018-04-15T15:26:04Z ebrasca: p_l: I don't have full understanding about common lisp FS. 2018-04-15T15:26:30Z Xof: you are in good company 2018-04-15T15:26:50Z p_l: hahahaha 2018-04-15T15:26:58Z Xof: the CL pathnames and files chapters suffered in the final stage of the editing of the standard 2018-04-15T15:26:58Z jjkola quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:27:06Z Xof: the committee ran out of time and money 2018-04-15T15:27:16Z p_l: I have used quite recently some OSes that had the same fields as a CL pathname 2018-04-15T15:27:31Z Xof: those chapters have several internal contradictions and incoherences; they're not quite sure whether they're aiming to be a superset or subset of all things 2018-04-15T15:28:04Z p_l: (phoe_air) the little bit of knowledge that the Common Lisp community had abouth pathnames has been codified into ASDF and UIOP; the rest is shamanism and black magic 2018-04-15T15:28:05Z Xof: and then implementors start interpreting things, and users start complaining that the thing they want to do doesn't work how they expect, and... 2018-04-15T15:28:36Z ebrasca: Yea 2018-04-15T15:28:51Z p_l: There's a significant problem that most of the APIs many people use have all of one field out of all lisp pathname fields 2018-04-15T15:29:05Z Xof: if you're an implementor, try to do something sensible. If you're a user, please have sympathy with your implementors 2018-04-15T15:29:16Z Xof: (if you're pfdietz, curl up and cry in the corner) 2018-04-15T15:29:44Z Xof: Hm, next year is 2019. SBCL20 in London in December, anyone? 2018-04-15T15:29:47Z p_l: ebrasca: I'd probably implement HOST as "network" switch and device for "partition" 2018-04-15T15:30:14Z p_l: Xof: I wouldn't mind London, though I don't know about time :) 2018-04-15T15:31:08Z Xof: this would be additional to a nice conference in springtime 2018-04-15T15:31:11Z Xof: not instead 2018-04-15T15:31:21Z Nouv joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:31:39Z pfdietz: Pathnames, so little could be tested. 2018-04-15T15:32:10Z ebrasca don't know how to do what p_l like. Ebrasca goes to his corner and cry. 2018-04-15T15:32:21Z p_l: ebrasca: are you at ELS? 2018-04-15T15:32:34Z ebrasca: p_l: I don't have money to go. 2018-04-15T15:32:38Z p_l: :< 2018-04-15T15:32:58Z p_l: pity 2018-04-15T15:33:09Z p_l: still, itchy fingers here 2018-04-15T15:33:15Z ebrasca: p_l: mmm Can I manage to go with 100 euros? 2018-04-15T15:33:33Z p_l: ebrasca: given that it starts tomorrow, nope 2018-04-15T15:34:12Z p_l: unless you've a way of getting to Marbella and arrange for accommodation 2018-04-15T15:34:24Z ebrasca: p_l: Maybe if I start walking ... 2018-04-15T15:36:16Z ebrasca: p_l: Do you have tox? 2018-04-15T15:36:36Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:36:36Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-15T15:36:36Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:36:38Z p_l: not really, never got around to using it so it disappeared from my system 2018-04-15T15:37:27Z pfdietz: I recently found one cannot expect (namestring #p"/foo/bar/baz") to be "/foo/bar/baz". 2018-04-15T15:37:43Z pfdietz: Symbolic links were getting substituted. 2018-04-15T15:38:26Z ebrasca: I think it is "Host:>foo>bar>baz" 2018-04-15T15:40:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:42:11Z p_l: ebrasca: MIT lmfs style? 2018-04-15T15:43:40Z ebrasca: p_l: Maybe like Genera path. 2018-04-15T15:43:53Z p_l: Genera code is derived from tere 2018-04-15T15:43:55Z p_l: *ther 2018-04-15T15:43:57Z p_l: ... *there 2018-04-15T15:44:27Z p_l: but IIRC first LMFS with this style was in MIT Lisp Machine software 2018-04-15T15:44:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:45:37Z ebrasca: p_l: mmm someting related with Stallman? 2018-04-15T15:47:11Z p_l: I think he did code some of it, but on hte system 78.48 from MIT I have LMFS version 21.34 and "Symbolics" (probably symbolics contributions back to MIT) version 8.13 2018-04-15T15:49:47Z MrSleepy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:50:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:50:54Z ebrasca: p_l: I can't do VFS bacause I don't understand where to start and my fat32 is WIP. 2018-04-15T15:51:27Z p_l: ebrasca: don't worry 2018-04-15T15:52:12Z ebrasca: I worry because I expect from me perfect code but I get errors... 2018-04-15T15:52:15Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:52:42Z MasouDa quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2018-04-15T15:53:00Z p_l: There's already some redirection layer in place, get your own code working and who knows, I might be one day sleep-deprived enough to go mad and implement VFS on that ;D 2018-04-15T15:53:04Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:53:16Z p_l: "perfect" is the enemy of "done" 2018-04-15T15:53:33Z Shinmera: A VFS could be a general implementation extension, I suppose. 2018-04-15T15:53:44Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:53:54Z Shinmera: Just needs a protocol specification 2018-04-15T15:54:01Z p_l: Shinmera: I actually thought about this in the past, as possible CDR document 2018-04-15T15:54:22Z ebrasca: p_l: Yea with time I focus more in "done" rather than "perfect". 2018-04-15T15:54:27Z p_l: Would love to see some form of buy in on many implementations though (a way to submit monkey-patching code for a bunch of them?) 2018-04-15T15:55:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:55:30Z flazh1 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T15:55:50Z p_l: an example of what I was thinking of using such a VFS - ZIP file VFS that you can mount as an extra "host/device", similarly a "driver" for files embedded in implementation-specific way in the image, etc. 2018-04-15T15:56:06Z Patternmaster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T15:56:12Z p_l: Mezzano just appears to be an interesting place to have it in general, and with some VFS work in place already :) 2018-04-15T15:56:36Z dim: hi! 2018-04-15T15:56:47Z beach: Hello dim. 2018-04-15T15:56:56Z dim: In Marbella, ready to go for a walk by the sea then have a drink / dinner 2018-04-15T15:57:37Z Shinmera: Dinner will probably have to wait another two hours at least. 2018-04-15T15:58:34Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T15:58:47Z ebrasca: I don't understand ourputs of rename-file if successful. 2018-04-15T15:58:50Z _death: two hours.. just the amount of time I figure I'll be resting ;) 2018-04-15T15:59:22Z dim: well beers by the see it is then 2018-04-15T15:59:28Z dim: a good way to spend time 2018-04-15T15:59:43Z dim: anyway, I'm also on the Whatsapp group if things move 2018-04-15T15:59:50Z Shinmera: I'll pick up Xof at the bus station in about 50 minutes. Dunno what we'll do after he checks in 2018-04-15T16:00:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:02:13Z ebrasca: Is truename long-name (not always present) or short-name from fat32? 2018-04-15T16:02:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:02:23Z Nouv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T16:03:18Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:03:34Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:04:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:06:14Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-15T16:07:29Z p_l: ebrasca: the question IMO should be "do I support LFN or not, and if yes, return LFN name if present" 2018-04-15T16:07:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:09:20Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:10:03Z ebrasca is searching for meaning of "LFN". 2018-04-15T16:10:25Z p_l: ah, sorry. LFN = Long File Name in FAT32 2018-04-15T16:10:29Z p_l: or rather VFAT 2018-04-15T16:10:39Z p_l: because FAT's history is full of fail 2018-04-15T16:10:41Z razieliyo: lol you're all in marbella? 2018-04-15T16:10:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:11:06Z p_l: (phoe_air) FAT: Fail Allocation Table 2018-04-15T16:11:32Z p_l: (phoe_air) razieliyo: yes, slowly gathering there for the ELS, some of us are still travelling towards marbella 2018-04-15T16:11:36Z razieliyo: tourist city, prices would prolly be high 2018-04-15T16:11:42Z razieliyo: nice 2018-04-15T16:12:11Z razieliyo: the weather here in the south of spain is a bit shitty these days, it use to be more shiny but this year rain is staying a bit more than usual 2018-04-15T16:12:18Z razieliyo: maybe marbella is better than here in the west 2018-04-15T16:12:47Z dim: weather is beautiful, and that being said, I'm going outside to enjoy it ;-) 2018-04-15T16:12:55Z razieliyo: haha nice 2018-04-15T16:13:08Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:13:48Z p_l: razieliyo: weather in Marbella beats the gray out of London's weather ;) 2018-04-15T16:14:24Z p_l: our 4 man contingent is still at FL330 en route to Malaga 2018-04-15T16:15:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:16:33Z p_l: expected time in Malaga is 18:45, dunno how long is the bus travel 2018-04-15T16:17:00Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-15T16:17:22Z Shinmera: Bus takes 45 minutes, but it goes pretty irregularly 2018-04-15T16:17:29Z Shinmera: or rather, infrequently 2018-04-15T16:17:34Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:18:38Z bakkal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:21:58Z p_l: Going for landing approach now, cya 2018-04-15T16:22:11Z pfdietz: "3 cm of snow and ice expected" -- weather in Not Spain. 2018-04-15T16:22:54Z frgo: Not in Southern Germany. 25 deg Celsius here near Stuttgart. 2018-04-15T16:23:21Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:23:59Z JuanDaugherty: looks like about 3 cm here (about 100 clicks from toronto) 2018-04-15T16:24:21Z JuanDaugherty: *klicks 2018-04-15T16:24:41Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:24:43Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T16:24:55Z JuanDaugherty: but i am the happy because it's the end of it not the begin 2018-04-15T16:28:14Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:28:57Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:29:46Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:30:22Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:30:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:34:42Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T16:35:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:36:57Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:38:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T16:40:57Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T16:41:07Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-15T16:41:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:45:34Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:45:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:48:55Z python476 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T16:51:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T16:54:21Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:56:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:57:32Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T16:58:51Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:11:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:15:17Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:15:26Z EvW1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T17:16:19Z Xof: ok, Shinmera and I are now in Marbella 2018-04-15T17:16:21Z Xof: where is everyone? 2018-04-15T17:16:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:17:09Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:17:33Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T17:18:39Z jjkola joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:19:04Z jjkola quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-15T17:21:22Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:21:28Z jackdaniel: we are about to eat dinner at 8pm in restaurant near avenida las palmeras 6, feel free to join :) 2018-04-15T17:23:52Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:24:12Z KawaiiNoises is now known as SaganMan 2018-04-15T17:25:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:27:22Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:30:16Z phoe: we are in Malaga 2018-04-15T17:30:37Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:31:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:33:16Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:35:06Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:36:01Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:36:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:38:59Z shka: hello 2018-04-15T17:39:19Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:39:33Z phoe: heyyyy 2018-04-15T17:41:12Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T17:43:32Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T17:44:05Z MrSleepy joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:46:38Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-15T17:47:13Z 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2018-04-15T19:30:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:31:53Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:36:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:38:27Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-15T19:38:27Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:38:46Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:38:58Z phoe: I am in the hotel. 2018-04-15T19:39:09Z phoe: I shall CRASH now. I have not had any sleep last night. 2018-04-15T19:39:15Z phoe: See you at the conference tomorrow, everyone. 2018-04-15T19:40:20Z Shinmera: Sleep well 2018-04-15T19:40:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:40:54Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:41:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:43:18Z phoe: You too guys when you do 2018-04-15T19:43:23Z phoe: I can't wait for tomorrow 2018-04-15T19:43:26Z Shinmera: I can 2018-04-15T19:45:32Z fourier: yep see you all there, gonna be cool 2018-04-15T19:45:32Z _death: I must, time machine is at home 2018-04-15T19:46:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:46:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:48:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:51:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:53:57Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:55:35Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:56:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:56:42Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T19:58:00Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T19:59:48Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:00:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:01:05Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:01:35Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:02:25Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:03:14Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:04:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:05:22Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:06:04Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:06:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:07:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:07:54Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:08:01Z mustachio joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:08:27Z spoken-tales joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:08:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:10:24Z mustachio left #lisp 2018-04-15T20:10:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:11:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:13:29Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:14:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:16:34Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:18:52Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:18:59Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:19:21Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:20:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:22:34Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:23:45Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:24:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:24:34Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:25:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:26:22Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:26:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:27:58Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:30:03Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:31:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:33:46Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:35:37Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:38:38Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:39:22Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:40:01Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T20:41:07Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:41:45Z spoken-tales quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:43:56Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:44:15Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:46:40Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:46:54Z spoken-tales joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:47:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:49:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-15T20:50:09Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:50:34Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2018-04-15T20:51:10Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:51:47Z disumu quit (Quit: ...) 2018-04-15T20:51:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:52:05Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:54:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:55:34Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T20:57:35Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-15T20:59:34Z Bindler quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50)) 2018-04-15T21:00:02Z Bindler2 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:00:58Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T21:03:06Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:05:52Z Bindler2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-15T21:45:28Z razieliyo left #lisp 2018-04-15T21:45:39Z lerax left #lisp 2018-04-15T21:46:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T21:46:38Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T21:48:21Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T21:55:48Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:57:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:58:03Z __rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:58:25Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:58:31Z verisimilitude: Hello, again. 2018-04-15T21:59:26Z holycow joined #lisp 2018-04-15T21:59:27Z verisimilitude: I'm currently adding system buffering and echoing control to my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, even though I despise the idea. 2018-04-15T21:59:33Z verisimilitude: What are you all working on? 2018-04-15T22:00:09Z drunkencoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T22:00:29Z drunkencoder joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:00:51Z verisimilitude: I'm currently adding CCL code for this, but it can't find its queer little databases on my system and so I'm doing it blind. 2018-04-15T22:02:10Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:03:29Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:03:57Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:03:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:04:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:05:09Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:06:44Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:06:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:09:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:09:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:14:46Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:15:27Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:15:32Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:16:03Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:16:25Z equwal: I'm doing haskell 2018-04-15T22:16:53Z asarch: Why? 2018-04-15T22:16:57Z equwal: Job 2018-04-15T22:17:05Z equwal: This is what happens when you don't have macros: 2018-04-15T22:17:09Z equwal: instance FromJSON Agenda 2018-04-15T22:17:09Z equwal: instance FromJSON District 2018-04-15T22:17:09Z equwal: instance FromJSON Category 2018-04-15T22:17:09Z equwal: instance FromJSON BillSpecificFunding 2018-04-15T22:17:12Z equwal: instance FromJSON Bill 2018-04-15T22:17:15Z equwal: instance ToJSON Agenda 2018-04-15T22:17:20Z equwal: instance ToJSON District 2018-04-15T22:17:20Z equwal: instance ToJSON Category 2018-04-15T22:17:24Z equwal: instance ToJSON BillSpecificFunding 2018-04-15T22:17:26Z equwal: instance ToJSON Bill 2018-04-15T22:17:35Z equwal: That would be two lines in CL with a macro. 2018-04-15T22:20:10Z fe[nl]ix: equwal: stop that 2018-04-15T22:21:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:24:58Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:27:07Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-15T22:27:26Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-15T22:28:34Z thblt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:30:43Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-15T22:30:56Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:31:47Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:33:06Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:33:07Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:33:46Z simplegauss: in common implementations (I'm particularly interested in sbcl) is there a way to declare a lambda inline? of course this is going to be used in a macro 2018-04-15T22:38:29Z simplegauss: what i mean is a macro might produce a lambda which gets assigned or called, and i'd like this lambda to be declared inline. of course i could do something like "(flet ((f (x) (declare (inline f)) (1+ x))) f)" but i'd like to know the better solution if it exists 2018-04-15T22:38:36Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-15T22:41:28Z jmercouris: simplegauss: What is the question? A macro can produce any kind of code, and a lambda can be made with (lambda ()) 2018-04-15T22:42:34Z verisimilitude: So, LAMBDA is just a macro, simplegauss. 2018-04-15T22:42:42Z verisimilitude: Simply define another macro around that. 2018-04-15T22:45:57Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:45:57Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T22:47:03Z White_Flame: flet supports declarations in its body 2018-04-15T22:47:23Z White_Flame: iow (flet ((func ...)) (declare (inline func)) ...something that uses func...) 2018-04-15T22:47:47Z White_Flame: if you put the inline declaration inside the function body itself, that's not where inlining needs to happen 2018-04-15T22:48:11Z White_Flame: it needs to happen where func is called, which is inside the body of flet 2018-04-15T22:54:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:02:04Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T23:02:05Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-15T23:02:23Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:03:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:04:34Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:07:13Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-15T23:16:02Z michalisko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:16:15Z Trystam joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:18:51Z michalisko joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:19:00Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:19:10Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2018-04-15T23:27:17Z pfdietz: You can declare local functions inline. 2018-04-15T23:27:51Z pfdietz: Ah that was already pointed out. 2018-04-15T23:29:05Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:36:04Z spoken-tales quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:37:49Z simplegauss quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:38:24Z Bronsa` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:44:24Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:46:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:49:09Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:51:33Z nbhauke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:51:37Z Kaisyu7 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-15T23:53:03Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-15T23:53:34Z nbhauke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-15T23:53:34Z nbhauke_ is now known as nbhauke 2018-04-15T23:53:46Z Kaisyu7 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:04:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:09:23Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:10:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:10:41Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:15:18Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:20:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:22:19Z drmeister: CFFI question - what encoding does not change a string at all? *default-foreign-encoding* :utf-8 is screwing me up. 2018-04-16T00:25:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:26:55Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:26:57Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:30:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:32:30Z impulse joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:33:07Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:35:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:36:09Z verisimilitude: Have you tried ASCII? 2018-04-16T00:36:22Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T00:37:00Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:41:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:45:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:48:14Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:50:05Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T00:50:55Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T00:51:05Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:53:32Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T00:54:14Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:55:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:55:45Z Arcaelyx quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-16T00:57:10Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:57:46Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-16T00:58:34Z White_Flame: what does "not change a string at all" mean? what format is the string currently? as it's a vector of potentially 21-bit or so codes, they need to map to bytes somehow 2018-04-16T00:59:09Z White_Flame: also, it highly depends on what the byte reader on the other side thinks the encoding is 2018-04-16T01:00:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:00:45Z simplegauss: i got disconnected earlier, so i apologize if someone already answered this, but i was wondering if a lambda function definition can be declared inline in any implementation (sbcl). concretely i have a macro that expands to some lambda, and i'd like that function to be inlined. 2018-04-16T01:00:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:01:38Z simplegauss: so for example does the declaration here make a difference?: (defmacro m () '(lambda (x) (declare (inline)) (1+ x))) 2018-04-16T01:01:56Z White_Flame: the inline delcaration needs to be where the lambda is used 2018-04-16T01:02:11Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:02:16Z White_Flame: your declare affects code inside the lambda body, which isn't where the inlining decision you want will happen 2018-04-16T01:02:37Z White_Flame: from above: (flet ((func ...)) (declare (inline func)) ...something that uses func...) 2018-04-16T01:02:50Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:02:52Z simplegauss: White_Flame: oh, so something like (defun f (args) (declare (inline f)) body...) does nothing? 2018-04-16T01:03:05Z White_Flame: right 2018-04-16T01:03:18Z White_Flame: in my flet, the declaration is in code that _uses_ func 2018-04-16T01:03:31Z White_Flame: and the body of the function is known 2018-04-16T01:03:46Z White_Flame: if you pass around lambdas dynamically, you can't inline them. You'd have to recompile to have that effect 2018-04-16T01:03:53Z White_Flame: as you invoke them 2018-04-16T01:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:05:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:06:00Z simplegauss: hmm. does the hyperspec or some document go into more details on these rules? this link (http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_inline.htm) seems to suggest that (inline blah) before a function definition can trigger some information to be saved 2018-04-16T01:06:29Z simplegauss: also, i guess there is no way to insist that all uses of a function are attempted to be inlined? 2018-04-16T01:06:55Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:07:13Z simplegauss: nvm, i guess that's what declaim is for. for some reason I thought i've seen people write (defun f (args) (declare (inline f)) body) 2018-04-16T01:08:33Z White_Flame: right, the declaim is outside the defun, meaning the outer scope uses that declaration 2018-04-16T01:09:12Z White_Flame: (labels ((foo ...) (bar (x) (declare (inline foo)) ...) ...) is meaningful 2018-04-16T01:09:35Z White_Flame: as are inline declarations for foo & bar in the labels body 2018-04-16T01:11:22Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:11:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:11:58Z simplegauss: White_Flame: thanks! are there some good optimization notes that deal with these questions, even if only specific to sbcl? 2018-04-16T01:13:21Z White_Flame: the best optimization tip is to use DISASSEMBLE to see what's really going on 2018-04-16T01:13:29Z White_Flame: and time things 2018-04-16T01:14:01Z White_Flame: I believe implementations are free to ignore inline declarations, so your speed/safety/etc settings have to be enough to allow it, too 2018-04-16T01:14:45Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-16T01:14:57Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:14:59Z zacts joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:15:27Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:16:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:16:55Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:18:55Z kotrcka quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-16T01:20:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:23:48Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:26:48Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-16T01:27:56Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:31:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:31:33Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:32:07Z simplegauss: White_Flame: thanks! I decided to do that to try and learn something about sbcl, and now i've seen something that looks very much like an optimization bug 2018-04-16T01:32:29Z simplegauss: if i have (defmacro mfoo () '(lambda (x) (1+ (1- x)))) 2018-04-16T01:32:55Z simplegauss: then compile (lambda (x) (funcall (mfoo) x)), the function given by mfoo does not inline 2018-04-16T01:33:33Z simplegauss: but if i compile (lambda (x) (funcall (lambda (z) (1+ (1- z))) x)), the lambda gets inlined 2018-04-16T01:34:02Z simplegauss: i'm surprised this kind of behavior is even possible; don't macros have to be expanded before compilation? 2018-04-16T01:34:15Z simplegauss: i also thought they were supposed to be the same as hand-typed code 2018-04-16T01:34:58Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:35:54Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:36:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:37:49Z simplegauss: to be precise i'm compiling (lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (funcall (mfoo) x)) and (lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (funcall (lambda (x) (1+ (1- x))) x)) 2018-04-16T01:41:51Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:42:11Z ophan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-16T01:44:44Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:47:48Z lemons joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:49:27Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:50:02Z tokamach quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-16T01:51:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:54:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:55:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T01:56:12Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:56:43Z pierpa: pfdietz: so, an implementation where (mapcar #'upgraded-array-element-type '((unsigned-byte 16) (signed-byte 16) (unsigned-byte 15))) ==> ((UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) (SIGNED-BYTE 16) (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16)) is in error, if I understand correctly? sigh :) 2018-04-16T01:57:47Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-16T01:57:47Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T01:59:10Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:02:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:05:47Z jlarocco: Hi, I'm writing a wrapper for libgphoto2, and I'm running into a problem with two functions that take struct arguments on the stack. 2018-04-16T02:06:23Z jlarocco: Adding cffi-libffi as a dependency fixed an error with my defcfun declarations, but now when I try to call the functions I get "There is no applicable method for the generic function" with a pointer, my struct type, and another pointer. 2018-04-16T02:06:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:08:00Z jlarocco: I'm finding conflicting information on whether passing structs on the stack even works 2018-04-16T02:12:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:12:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-16T02:13:49Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T02:16:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:22:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:25:48Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:27:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:31:34Z jlarocco: nevermind - user error. I'm passing a pointer to the struct, and not the struct. 2018-04-16T02:35:21Z clintm joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:38:54Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T02:39:35Z clintm: Before I buy lispworks out of sheer frustration, I thought I might ask here: Does anyone else (try to) use FreeBSD and either sbcl or ccl? Between sbcl's random "interrupted system call" errors, and ccl randomly hanging with slime, I'm THIS close to dropping them both. 2018-04-16T02:40:57Z Kaisyu7 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-16T02:40:59Z verisimilitude: I can tell you it's good enough under OpenBSD. 2018-04-16T02:41:22Z verisimilitude: Considering that the FreeBSD developers don't even use FreeBSD, perhaps you should drop it instead, if you can. 2018-04-16T02:41:38Z verisimilitude: So, SBCL has random system call failures there; that's interesting. 2018-04-16T02:42:03Z verisimilitude: Have you given ECL and some others a try, first? 2018-04-16T02:42:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:42:40Z Kaisyu7 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T02:44:05Z clintm: Hrm... no, I haven't tried anything but those two. 2018-04-16T02:45:01Z verisimilitude: There's also ABCL, if you don't mind running the JVM, which probably works well under FreeBSD. 2018-04-16T02:45:24Z verisimilitude: Considering how much a Lispworks license costs, it's worth your time to test these first. 2018-04-16T02:46:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T02:47:39Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T02:48:19Z clintm: Hrm... I think I'll bring up an openbsd instance and see how well things work there. I feel a bit embarrassed that I didn't suspect FreeBSD itself more, and only blamed the lisps. 2018-04-16T02:52:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:00:06Z simplegauss: I asked on the sbcl channel, but i am getting some strange disassembly and i don't understand how it's even possible for this optimization bug to happen: https://pastebin.com/SjBV06L2 . the top function compiles a separate lambda and calls into it, but the bottom two completely elide the lambda and have no extra function calls in their body. 2018-04-16T03:00:20Z simplegauss: I thought that macro expansion is supposed to happen before compilation? 2018-04-16T03:01:03Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:04:47Z simplegauss: and why would assigning to a name in the flet help if it's still wrapped in a funcall? 2018-04-16T03:05:10Z lemons quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:05:59Z epony quit (Quit: hw malfunction) 2018-04-16T03:08:14Z pierpa: what happens if you change that macro to (defmacro mfoo () #'(lambda (z) (1+ z))) ? (or equivalently to (defmacro mfoo () (lambda (z) (1+ z))) ) 2018-04-16T03:10:52Z simplegauss: pierpa: that doesn't compile... 2018-04-16T03:11:02Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-16T03:12:31Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T03:13:39Z pierpa: ah. right. 2018-04-16T03:15:07Z simplegauss: does what's happening make sense to you? 2018-04-16T03:18:06Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T03:19:15Z pfdietz: pierpa: that's right. 2018-04-16T03:19:29Z pfdietz: (about u-a-e-t) 2018-04-16T03:19:40Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T03:20:07Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:21:48Z pierpa: pfdietz: so, ccl, lw, and acl got it wrong. only sbcl is right of the ones I have checked 2018-04-16T03:22:31Z pfdietz: Yes. The ANSI spec is clear on this. 2018-04-16T03:22:41Z pierpa: yes, I found the paragraph 2018-04-16T03:24:58Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:25:07Z pfdietz: Complex type upgrading in the spec is broken, though. They didn't get it right before the spec writing process ended. 2018-04-16T03:25:35Z pierpa: which para is http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/15_aba.htm if someone is interested 2018-04-16T03:26:18Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:26:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:26:58Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:27:04Z pfdietz: Off to bed. Have a good ELS, all of you who are there. 2018-04-16T03:27:11Z pfdietz quit 2018-04-16T03:27:11Z pierpa: pfdietz: in which way is complex upgrading broken? 2018-04-16T03:27:23Z pierpa: Good night 2018-04-16T03:32:19Z simpleg31 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:38:49Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:41:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:41:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:42:35Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:44:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:45:09Z simplegauss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:46:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:48:10Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:48:58Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T03:51:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T03:58:01Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-16T04:02:46Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T04:03:33Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T04:06:12Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2018-04-16T04:06:21Z damke_ 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#lisp 2018-04-16T07:02:38Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:05:07Z hajovonta: hi 2018-04-16T07:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:05:18Z elderK: Hey hajovonta :) 2018-04-16T07:05:52Z hajovonta: hi elderK! 2018-04-16T07:06:40Z elderK: How's it going? 2018-04-16T07:06:41Z elderK: :D 2018-04-16T07:07:12Z hajovonta: not too much from me on Lisp side recently 2018-04-16T07:09:40Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T07:11:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:11:38Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:12:08Z hajovonta: I'm shifting to another team where python is required 2018-04-16T07:13:39Z elderK: Do you like Python at all? 2018-04-16T07:13:44Z elderK: :P I've been forced to use it for University 2018-04-16T07:13:49Z elderK: It's not horrible. But I don't like it, either. 2018-04-16T07:14:22Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:15:27Z hajovonta: the same here. If I have to choose a popular language, I would choose python. It's easy to learn, and one can accomplish a lot with it. 2018-04-16T07:16:07Z hajovonta: But after programming in lisp, I tend to avoid everything else if possible. 2018-04-16T07:16:39Z hajovonta: We have tools developed in Java that I don't like to use so I developed my alternatives using Emacs Lisp 2018-04-16T07:20:39Z elderK: Nice. 2018-04-16T07:20:44Z elderK: I don't know. I'm pretty picky when it comes to languages. 2018-04-16T07:20:57Z elderK: Like, when it comes to what I call "high level languages", I figure I might as well try to use Lisp. 2018-04-16T07:21:02Z lagagain quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-16T07:21:17Z elderK: Java, Python, etc. They don't really offer anything compelling besides being widely available and supported. 2018-04-16T07:21:22Z hajovonta: what is low level nowadays? :) 2018-04-16T07:21:36Z elderK: Same with say, C/C++ vs something like say, Pascal or some other language. 2018-04-16T07:21:43Z elderK: Good question. 2018-04-16T07:21:59Z elderK: I guess for me, something is high-level if you don't have to worry so much about all the tiny details of memory and such. 2018-04-16T07:22:24Z elderK: Or if say, it's very difficult to do "unmanaged' things. 2018-04-16T07:22:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:22:40Z elderK: In that sense, CL kind of fits as a semi-low-level language in that with SBCL, you can create VOPs and stuff. 2018-04-16T07:23:03Z elderK: My "perception" of languages probably isn't sane - it's not based on much other than my own feelings. So, take it with salt :) 2018-04-16T07:23:20Z elderK: But in general, Python, Java, C#, etc. They all seem like slightly different shades of the same color. 2018-04-16T07:23:29Z elderK: Where as Lisp dialects are novel. 2018-04-16T07:23:30Z elderK shrugs 2018-04-16T07:23:36Z elderK: You know? 2018-04-16T07:24:46Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:24:51Z verisimilitude: Java continues to impress me. 2018-04-16T07:25:02Z elderK: verisimilitude: How so? 2018-04-16T07:25:03Z hajovonta: yes, but I sometimes find myself in a position that either my lisp knowledge is insufficient or lisp is not capable of doing a task, and then reach out to python and make lisp and python programs work together 2018-04-16T07:25:09Z verisimilitude: It's impressive how, despite its disgusting size, it still lacks so much important functionality. 2018-04-16T07:25:27Z elderK: The fact that it does not natively support unsigned integers was a major turn off to me. 2018-04-16T07:25:27Z hajovonta: I call this "augmenting my lisp program" and it's usually a horrible marriage 2018-04-16T07:25:30Z elderK: Sure, you can kludge them. 2018-04-16T07:25:47Z elderK: And for a typed language, the lack of "references to const object" really pisses me off. 2018-04-16T07:26:13Z verisimilitude: Now, I don't know much Java, as I very much dislike it, but is most of the language OO patterns or some drivel? How do they waste so much space with so little? 2018-04-16T07:27:11Z verisimilitude: As an example, I'm begrudgingly writing some Common Lisp to pepper over some terminal functionality across implementations. 2018-04-16T07:27:40Z verisimilitude: For ABCL, I was planning to write some Java in Common Lisp to handle this, but, and I could be wrong, it seems Java has no functionality for this. 2018-04-16T07:27:52Z elderK: I've had to pick up Java for Uni. So much there is Java Java Java. I *actively* avoided it like the plague for a LONG time. 2018-04-16T07:27:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:28:01Z elderK: And I found that my distaste for it was not misplaced. 2018-04-16T07:28:20Z verisimilitude: Am I wrong or does Java, despite its disgusting size, truly lack simple functionality such as permitting raw I/O and echoing? 2018-04-16T07:28:55Z hajovonta: elderK: now in my old team Java is coming like a train and I could barely step away 2018-04-16T07:30:00Z hajovonta: I wrote a solution in 6 months (by myself) in CL that had the functionality of a large Java software that a whole team was working on for years 2018-04-16T07:31:21Z elderK: I have hte same story just not with CL. 2018-04-16T07:31:35Z elderK: :P Clusterfuckery is why I returned to University to get a degree. 2018-04-16T07:31:52Z hajovonta: but CL is not adopted here 2018-04-16T07:32:08Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:32:47Z verisimilitude: Oh, but hajovonta, that team can be easily replaced piecewise; it's probably slightly harder to replace you. 2018-04-16T07:33:01Z hajovonta: yes I know 2018-04-16T07:33:22Z verisimilitude: Just remember that it's all about reducing programming to assembly line work, where you don't matter and they can do whatever they want to you. 2018-04-16T07:33:37Z elderK: Dude, at my last job, I was openly mocked for talking about Lisp. 2018-04-16T07:33:39Z verisimilitude: I don't mean to seem like some commie, though; I'm not. 2018-04-16T07:33:42Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:33:49Z elderK: By a boss who didn't even know the value of writing small functions. 2018-04-16T07:33:52Z elderK: Or properly modularizing things. 2018-04-16T07:33:53Z hajovonta: it was fun to prove what CL can do, and it reinforced my feeling that lisp is the only language that is worth of using 2018-04-16T07:33:58Z elderK: "BIG FUNCTIONS COMPILE FASTER!". Idiot. 2018-04-16T07:34:30Z hajovonta: verisimilitude: yeah that's my feeling too, but I don't want to be a code monkey 2018-04-16T07:34:54Z elderK: verisimilitude: Same here. 2018-04-16T07:34:59Z elderK: In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. 2018-04-16T07:35:01Z elderK: You nailed it. 2018-04-16T07:35:11Z elderK: :( I can see it reflected in the curriculum too. 2018-04-16T07:35:42Z verisimilitude: I had fun demonstrating to some students I had the opportunity to interact with how a single line of APL replaces however many dozens of lines of Java they were writing. 2018-04-16T07:36:40Z verisimilitude: I was then having a discussion with someone else about this same topic and they joking responded with this, paraphrased: 2018-04-16T07:36:40Z verisimilitude: Oh, but all of that Java is reusable. Your single line of APL isn't. 2018-04-16T07:37:01Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:37:05Z TMA: java is the safe bet. as we all know, a team of two hundred is smarter than any single person (assuming an average intelligence for the team members their IQ total is 20000) plus it is easier to hire yet another java programmer than to find out, whether the applicant is smart 2018-04-16T07:37:06Z elderK: Have you guys found, like, I don't know. Most developers I speak to in real life, they seem to lack passion. Students, too. Instead of say, working on a personal project or getting excited about some new technology or language or idea, they just... leave it all at the door. 2018-04-16T07:37:17Z elderK: They learn only what is necessary, no more. As if there's no curiosity. 2018-04-16T07:37:24Z elderK: And if you show any passion in it - in software, hardware, whatever. 2018-04-16T07:37:27Z elderK: They look at you like you are a freak. 2018-04-16T07:37:38Z elderK: :( I hope I'm not the only person that experiences that. 2018-04-16T07:37:43Z verisimilitude: That's what happens when it all becomes about the money. 2018-04-16T07:38:05Z verisimilitude: Just look at how most Indians want to be programmers, according to a national survey, apparently. 2018-04-16T07:38:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:38:17Z TMA: elderK: not restricted to developers though. 2018-04-16T07:38:19Z verisimilitude: They simply see it as the ticket to a comfortable life. 2018-04-16T07:39:58Z verisimilitude: Perhaps it's an odd difference, to compare workaholics who hate their jobs but obsess over them to someone who actually manages to get fulfillment from their job and still puts in just as much effort, if not more. 2018-04-16T07:40:05Z verisimilitude: Perhaps that's what those people find odd. 2018-04-16T07:40:06Z TMA: elderK: they possibly have some passion, it is just not anything you happened to stumble upon; they might like to dance, watch birds, tend their bonsai, get wasted, ... 2018-04-16T07:40:24Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:41:11Z elderK: I don't know. To me, Software isn't just a tool or a job. It's not a simple process. It's more like art or expression. 2018-04-16T07:41:30Z verisimilitude: Yes, elderK, and it's also not a useless creative activity. 2018-04-16T07:41:40Z verisimilitude: Unlike other creative activities, however, it's also easy to get into. 2018-04-16T07:41:49Z verisimilitude: At least, relative to designing a building, say. 2018-04-16T07:42:15Z elderK: Sure, you build something for some purpose. But the code itself, there are so many ways to evaluate it. Not simply that it "works." Is it maintainable? Is it flexible? Is it tested? Is it efficient? And the feeling that you get, when everything seems to be going right - design has come together. I don't know. It's just a great feeling. 2018-04-16T07:42:22Z elderK: It's like the Master Builders in the Lego movie. 2018-04-16T07:42:31Z verisimilitude: Sure. 2018-04-16T07:42:52Z elderK shrugs 2018-04-16T07:42:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:43:00Z verisimilitude: It's in a way bewildering to me how many programmers don't seem to have novel ideas for software. 2018-04-16T07:43:01Z fz joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:43:31Z verisimilitude: It seems like most programmers fetch this from that, fed into this, massaged by that, into this format to be fed to this later. 2018-04-16T07:43:47Z verisimilitude: Where's the innovation there? 2018-04-16T07:44:08Z fz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T07:44:19Z verisimilitude: Where's all of the programmers saying ``This entire way people do this is wrong and I'm going to design this to prove that my way's better!''? 2018-04-16T07:44:44Z elderK: Where's the love for the details, too? I have been kind of disgusted by how I see people write software. It's like, everyone thinks you have to be writing avionics software in order for a bug to do real damage. 2018-04-16T07:45:18Z elderK: Ignoring the fact that bad code today has more effect than ever before. Writing recklessly... is dangerous. 2018-04-16T07:45:33Z elderK: Say, a forum that stores people's contact info and passwords for some pointless reason. 2018-04-16T07:45:42Z elderK: Could be easily compromised and used for other purposes. 2018-04-16T07:45:56Z elderK: verisimilitude: Yeah! 2018-04-16T07:46:06Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:46:11Z verisimilitude: I agree, elderK. 2018-04-16T07:46:26Z verisimilitude: What programs have you been working on towards such a goal? 2018-04-16T07:46:35Z verisimilitude: I'd be interested to read about them. 2018-04-16T07:46:49Z elderK: Oh, the things I have built aren't groundbreaking :) 2018-04-16T07:46:49Z verisimilitude: If you can give me a link, that would be best. 2018-04-16T07:46:55Z elderK: They scratch itches I have. 2018-04-16T07:47:02Z elderK: Things I want to learn, or ideas I have wanted to experiment with. 2018-04-16T07:47:10Z verisimilitude: Well, alright. 2018-04-16T07:47:30Z elderK: Lately, I've been very interested in the object-capability concept. 2018-04-16T07:47:39Z elderK: And I would like to start applying it in various ways. 2018-04-16T07:47:44Z elderK: Most of my time these days is occupied by Uni work. 2018-04-16T07:48:03Z elderK: Outside of that, I continue to learn about compiler implementation, parsing and stuff. I have crazy dreams I want to realize. 2018-04-16T07:48:04Z verisimilitude: Don't let your schooling interfere with your education, if you can help it. 2018-04-16T07:48:09Z elderK: hahha 2018-04-16T07:48:14Z elderK: I could rant for hours on the schooling. 2018-04-16T07:48:14Z verisimilitude: What are these crazy dreams? 2018-04-16T07:48:18Z elderK: Suffice it to say, I am very disappointed. 2018-04-16T07:48:40Z elderK: I've always been interested in the low-level, particularly with kernels and microkernel technology. 2018-04-16T07:48:50Z elderK: I wrote a few in C and such a long time ago. Same with runtime linkers, etc. 2018-04-16T07:48:55Z elderK: My crazy dream is this: 2018-04-16T07:48:58Z elderK: And it helps precisely no one: 2018-04-16T07:49:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:49:28Z elderK: 1. Implement a compiler for a dialect of Scheme or maybe CL. Ideally, gain enough smarts so that I can write something that I can say is not a toy. 2018-04-16T07:49:28Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:49:37Z elderK: 2. Implement that compiler in itself, complete with a non-toy GC. 2018-04-16T07:49:50Z elderK: 3. Implement bootloader, kernel, etc, in that language. 2018-04-16T07:49:57Z elderK: I have seen Mezzano and such. 2018-04-16T07:49:59Z elderK: My goals are different. 2018-04-16T07:50:58Z verisimilitude: Howso? 2018-04-16T07:51:01Z elderK: I'd then like to investigate more into capability based security. And also do various experiments for my own satisfaction regarding how much I an shift into userspace. 2018-04-16T07:51:06Z hajovonta bought a soda 2018-04-16T07:51:18Z elderK: Well, for me, it's all about how much I can shift out of kernel space. 2018-04-16T07:51:24Z elderK: I'm very... strict on that in my mind. 2018-04-16T07:51:34Z elderK: Mezzano is very cool, no dobut about it. 2018-04-16T07:51:41Z elderK: froggey is an inspiration. 2018-04-16T07:52:11Z elderK: It would also be interesting to try and think of how to secure a modern Lisp system. 2018-04-16T07:52:12Z p_l: elderK: The question is, do we truly need the "kernel space" and "user space"? Even when using supervisor/user modes on CPUs 2018-04-16T07:52:30Z hajovonta: the software developer industry is divided already. And everybody wants to write code, and nobody likes to maintain it. 2018-04-16T07:52:42Z elderK: p_l: Well, it depends on what you mean by "kernel and user space" when using "supervisor/user." 2018-04-16T07:52:51Z elderK: It's not necessarily the memory that defines kernel and user space - it's all about the privilege. 2018-04-16T07:52:52Z hajovonta: But eventually, there will be code developers and code maintainers 2018-04-16T07:53:10Z elderK: p_l: Sure, you could do SIP. 2018-04-16T07:53:14Z p_l: elderK: supervisor/user is *hardware* security barrier. How do you actually use it, now... 2018-04-16T07:53:17Z hajovonta: these will blame each other 2018-04-16T07:53:23Z verisimilitude: Those are laudable dreams, elderK. 2018-04-16T07:53:43Z p_l: Also, hello from ELS2018 :) 2018-04-16T07:53:53Z hajovonta: hi there 2018-04-16T07:54:13Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T07:54:19Z verisimilitude: Now, from the earlier topic, the only particularly bothersome aspect of writing lower level code in Common Lisp, to me, is how logical manipulation can be verbose, but that could be eliminated easily if one wanted it. 2018-04-16T07:54:26Z elderK: verisimilitude: I have spent the majority of my life learning "pointless" details to enable this dream. I've also spent insane amounts of time learning how to modularize and test things. That was handy as I leanred that the more easily tested something is, the more the more modularized and flexible the resulting desing. 2018-04-16T07:54:28Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:54:31Z elderK: So, unit testing isn't something I hate. 2018-04-16T07:54:49Z elderK: The tests are the "bonus." I use them to ensure my APIs are sane. 2018-04-16T07:54:53Z elderK: verisimilitude: And thanks :) 2018-04-16T07:55:03Z verisimilitude: That's good, elderK; I firmly believe obsessing about a topic constantly is a good, perhaps even the best, means to improve the ideas created. 2018-04-16T07:55:04Z elderK: verisimilitude: How do you mean logical manipulation? 2018-04-16T07:55:27Z verisimilitude: So, Common Lisp can be verbose when manipulating binary formats and other such things. 2018-04-16T07:55:52Z elderK: verisimilitude: Also note, none of my ideas are particularly new. Pretty much everything I have done, has been done before, elsewhere and better. I'm simply trying to do it myself, my way, just for satisfaction I guess. And because I like to think I might be abl to do something more efficiently in some case. 2018-04-16T07:55:59Z elderK: verisimilitude: Ah, yes. 2018-04-16T07:56:07Z elderK: verisimilitude: I have not yet written anything "Serious" in CL. 2018-04-16T07:56:13Z elderK: But that has been something I have been thinking about. 2018-04-16T07:56:18Z verisimilitude: If you continue, elderK, I'd wager you'll create new ideas about the topic. 2018-04-16T07:56:20Z elderK: One of those things I know I would hit. 2018-04-16T07:56:45Z verisimilitude: Would you care to see what I've been working on, elderK; it's written in Common Lisp, but is a decidedly non-lispy program. 2018-04-16T07:56:54Z elderK: Absolutely verisimilitude. 2018-04-16T07:57:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T07:58:16Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/mmc.new.lisp 2018-04-16T07:58:36Z verisimilitude: It's an interactive, programmable, machine code development environment. 2018-04-16T07:58:41Z verisimilitude: I don't like assemblers. 2018-04-16T07:59:05Z p_l: lol @ lisp developers as zombies rising from the grave 2018-04-16T07:59:14Z elderK: :D Cool 2018-04-16T07:59:29Z p_l: currently discussed on keynote :D 2018-04-16T07:59:47Z verisimilitude: My idea is that you have machine code programs that use some services provided by the tool, such as disassembling an instruction or asking for an integer of a certain magnitude, to write machine code programs instead. 2018-04-16T08:00:11Z verisimilitude: Unfortunately, people tend to tell me that they can't give much of an opinion on it. 2018-04-16T08:00:20Z elderK: I'm not sure I get it from that description. 2018-04-16T08:00:31Z elderK: You mean, you provide a service that allows for the generation of code? 2018-04-16T08:00:35Z verisimilitude: I went to ##asm here and was told by one fellow that my article read as if ``a schizophrenic out patient'' wrote it. 2018-04-16T08:00:42Z verisimilitude: Yes, elderK. 2018-04-16T08:00:47Z elderK: Nice :) 2018-04-16T08:01:02Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-07-07 2018-04-16T08:01:07Z elderK: You have reminded me of another "dream project" of mine. Maybe some ideas from that you would find intersting for your own project. 2018-04-16T08:01:10Z elderK: Thank you for the link 2018-04-16T08:01:18Z verisimilitude: This is the article that goes into good detail, elderK. I'd be interested to read what you think of it. 2018-04-16T08:01:37Z verisimilitude: Still, I suppose you should tell me in a private message, if you do, so we don't error from Lisp here. 2018-04-16T08:01:38Z elderK: I'll let you know what I think :) 2018-04-16T08:02:01Z verisimilitude: I look forward to it, then. 2018-04-16T08:02:41Z verisimilitude: The actual Common Lisp is a mess, I think, at least in parts, but I did derive three libraries from it, which are rather nice, I think. 2018-04-16T08:03:22Z hajovonta: verisimilitude: so then by using your software, we would write machine code through your interface? 2018-04-16T08:03:27Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-16T08:03:49Z verisimilitude: This first version targets CHIP-8, which is why it's written in Common Lisp, as I've designed a Meta-CHIP-8 to use with this. 2018-04-16T08:04:21Z verisimilitude: That Meta-CHIP-8 isn't documented yet, however; there was an earlier version that I disregarded. 2018-04-16T08:04:25Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T08:04:38Z verisimilitude: It's all contained in the META-CHIP-8 procedure, though; it's a memory-to-memory system. 2018-04-16T08:04:51Z hajovonta: is it a one-way street, e.g. can it parse machine code back into lisp? 2018-04-16T08:05:29Z verisimilitude: It's a one-way street. I've purposefully designed the tool to only work in formats I've designed; it's not a Lispy program at all. 2018-04-16T08:05:43Z verisimilitude: It's merely written in Common Lisp. 2018-04-16T08:06:02Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:06:08Z hajovonta: I had something similar in mind but not with machine code but other high-level languages 2018-04-16T08:06:30Z verisimilitude: I'm also in the process of writing a MIPS targeting in MIPS. 2018-04-16T08:06:34Z verisimilitude: Do tell, hajovonta. 2018-04-16T08:07:26Z edgar-rft: AFAIK every machine-code can be parsed into Lisp code, but probably not very meaningful Lisp code. That's the only problem. 2018-04-16T08:07:59Z verisimilitude: You'd just be representing it with S-expressions, yes. 2018-04-16T08:08:02Z hajovonta: but I never got to the point of doing it (probably because I couldn't fully convince myself) 2018-04-16T08:08:48Z hajovonta: It would be more fun developing python code in CL repl than in python console 2018-04-16T08:09:05Z hajovonta: and there are some languages that do not even have a REPL in the first place 2018-04-16T08:09:08Z verisimilitude: Well, there's also a Python written in Common Lisp, which would help. 2018-04-16T08:09:33Z verisimilitude: You can't import common-lisp in Python, so that's a major barrier to a new implementation of Common Lisp in Python. 2018-04-16T08:10:35Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:11:08Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-16T08:14:36Z HDurer joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:14:36Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2018-04-16T08:14:36Z HDurer joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:17:17Z nbhauke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:20:00Z `JRG joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:20:39Z tokamach quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-16T08:33:12Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-16T08:35:35Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T08:36:35Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T08:36:58Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:37:35Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T08:39:29Z fzappa joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:40:53Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T08:41:37Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:45:13Z makomo: elderK: on the topic of Java, i see it at my uni too 2018-04-16T08:45:33Z makomo: it's a sad state of things 2018-04-16T08:46:26Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:47:48Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:48:14Z makomo: elderK: one professor who does pretty much all of his stuff in java said that lisp is a relic of the past, when talking with a collegue of mine who mentioned lisp to him 2018-04-16T08:48:48Z hajovonta: professors are just humans, too 2018-04-16T08:48:48Z makomo: (and i introduced that colleague to lisp and constantly keep talking about it :D) 2018-04-16T08:48:55Z makomo: hajovonta: i agree 2018-04-16T08:49:13Z hajovonta: my newbie colleague said "lisp is the evil itself" 2018-04-16T08:49:15Z makomo: so to prove him "wrong", i'm writing all of my opengl lab exercises in lisp 2018-04-16T08:49:31Z makomo: sadly he wasn't the one questioning me on my previous lab exercise 2018-04-16T08:49:36Z makomo: but i can't wait to see the expression on his face :D 2018-04-16T08:49:50Z hajovonta: please keep us posted :) 2018-04-16T08:50:23Z makomo: hopefully he'll be on one of the next labs 2018-04-16T08:52:18Z makomo: hajovonta: that professor teaches design patterns btw, which is really just a disguise for java 2018-04-16T08:52:39Z makomo: there's some C++, but only the "java kind". generic programming isn't talked about 2018-04-16T08:53:07Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T08:55:22Z hajovonta: I have difficulties communicating lisp's advantages 2018-04-16T08:55:49Z hajovonta: we continue to have argues with colleagues 2018-04-16T08:56:02Z verisimilitude: If you want to be a jackass, you could create some koans, hajovonta. 2018-04-16T08:56:20Z hajovonta: I often have to point out that language and ecosystem is not the same thing 2018-04-16T08:56:24Z verisimilitude: Koans are good for communicating very little, but in a very condescending manner. 2018-04-16T08:56:28Z SaganMan: hajovonta: lisp is fun 2018-04-16T08:56:31Z hajovonta: verisimilitude: I like koans :) 2018-04-16T08:56:52Z verisimilitude: In particular, I dislike C koans. 2018-04-16T08:57:01Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-16T08:57:09Z SaganMan: I would say lisp is most fun to program 2018-04-16T08:57:31Z kushal- joined #lisp 2018-04-16T08:57:58Z verisimilitude: ``This C programmer is good because he's a C programmer. He meets a higher level programmer who tells him that undefined behavior is bad. The C programmer farts and the other programmer realizes the error of his ways. The other programmer then commits suicide for daring to transgress against the ghost of Dennis Ritchie.'' 2018-04-16T08:58:14Z verisimilitude: This is more colorful, but communicates the general message behind most C koans I've seen. 2018-04-16T08:58:43Z hajovonta: lol 2018-04-16T08:59:09Z hajovonta: i generally don't try to convince others 2018-04-16T08:59:20Z hajovonta: so my argues are just demonstrations really 2018-04-16T08:59:43Z hajovonta: and then the other party can decide whether he likes it or not 2018-04-16T08:59:52Z hajovonta: but lisp is very hard to get into 2018-04-16T09:00:28Z jdz: Not really. 2018-04-16T09:00:51Z jdz: I'd say it's not harder than any other environment. 2018-04-16T09:01:13Z jdz: The problem is that people get exposed to other environments first. 2018-04-16T09:01:16Z hajovonta: ok, but when you have already things set up, it's very different. 2018-04-16T09:01:17Z hajovonta: yes. 2018-04-16T09:01:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T09:01:59Z hajovonta: and it's a shame because those other environments impose limits on what they can do 2018-04-16T09:02:14Z verisimilitude: In languages like Go and Rust, that's the point. 2018-04-16T09:02:37Z verisimilitude: The modern languages say: ``Here, put on these cool shackles and be hip like me.'' 2018-04-16T09:02:50Z makomo: one of the more important things when arguing about languages is to have examples ready imo 2018-04-16T09:03:06Z verisimilitude: ``Everyone knows the cool way to extend a language is to let the cabal do it for you; if they don't, then you don't really need it.'' 2018-04-16T09:03:09Z makomo: and also to get past the hate for whichever language you have and take time to understand how exactly it differs from lisp 2018-04-16T09:04:04Z hajovonta: well you don't have to be a shoemaker to know if a shoe doesn't fit 2018-04-16T09:04:09Z makomo: you want to show people 2018-04-16T09:04:11Z hajovonta: sometimes you can tell it right away 2018-04-16T09:04:13Z makomo: woops 2018-04-16T09:04:20Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:04:20Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2018-04-16T09:04:20Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:04:21Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:04:26Z makomo: hajovonta: that's true and that's why almost all of us can tell that java is "wrong" 2018-04-16T09:04:37Z makomo: but for those who don't yet "see the way", only concrete examples will help 2018-04-16T09:04:43Z hajovonta: makomo: yes that was exactly on my mind :) 2018-04-16T09:04:49Z makomo: that's why you have to be the one who will think of them and show them when arguing for lisp 2018-04-16T09:04:57Z verisimilitude: Have you tried comparing Java to INTERCAL and seeing how they liked that? 2018-04-16T09:04:59Z makomo: you have to get past the hate for java and actually go and dig up some examples 2018-04-16T09:05:10Z hajovonta: but to be honest I learned Java for 2 years, but that was ~20 years ago 2018-04-16T09:05:15Z makomo: and then show them how much better the lisp way is 2018-04-16T09:05:20Z makomo: ah 2018-04-16T09:05:26Z makomo: verisimilitude: i've never heard of INTERCAL 2018-04-16T09:05:30Z verisimilitude: Simply show how both are full of boilerplate. 2018-04-16T09:05:46Z makomo: haha 2018-04-16T09:06:01Z verisimilitude: In that case, also lookup the WWW framework ``INTERCAL on Interstates''. 2018-04-16T09:06:12Z jdz: My observation: great software can be written in any language. 2018-04-16T09:06:17Z makomo: i remember a talk by bjarne stroustrup once where someone asked "how do you get the void* guy to switch over to modern c++" 2018-04-16T09:06:28Z makomo: in the sense that, the void* guy thinks that C++ will be slower, etc. 2018-04-16T09:06:41Z hajovonta: I have a colleague who tries to write a math expression parser that could simplify the expressions (in python) 2018-04-16T09:06:44Z makomo: the simple answer was really "do it for him" 2018-04-16T09:06:52Z makomo: think of an example or take his code, and rewrite it 2018-04-16T09:07:01Z makomo: and then show him that it's as fast or even faster than his void* code 2018-04-16T09:07:06Z makomo: that's the only way you'll really convince him 2018-04-16T09:07:13Z hajovonta: I showed him that when writing in lisp, you instantly work in the AST and it's easy to do transformations 2018-04-16T09:07:30Z hajovonta: he was impressed but still, I don't believe he will use lisp 2018-04-16T09:07:49Z makomo: yeah, it takes a lot of these small examples i think 2018-04-16T09:08:05Z makomo: another thing is that, lisp is kind of tied to emacs in the majority of cases 2018-04-16T09:08:26Z makomo: so getting into lisp is like stepping into a space shuttle if you've never used tools like emacs 2018-04-16T09:08:43Z elderK: I don't know. To me, I don't really care what language they use to teach students. What I care about is that the standards of teachign seem to have dropped, the enthusiasm is lacking and the students seem to be apathetic to what they are learning about. 2018-04-16T09:08:43Z makomo: most of the people at my uni who do java (so, most of them) worship intellij 2018-04-16T09:08:51Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:08:52Z elderK: I could rant on that for several reasons - I'll spare you. 2018-04-16T09:09:00Z elderK: But any time I see someone who is passionate about some idea, I am happy. 2018-04-16T09:09:13Z elderK: Sometimes, I have told classmates about various things, techniques, whatever. 2018-04-16T09:09:16Z makomo: elderK: i agree, but it seems that java is somehow connected to that whole problem imo 2018-04-16T09:09:34Z elderK: There is this one friend that got excited, a new coder, but he went away and spent a week hacking up something based on that idea in Java. 2018-04-16T09:09:37Z elderK: His code was terrible. 2018-04-16T09:09:42Z elderK: But to see the lightbulb. 2018-04-16T09:09:48Z elderK: To see how excited he was - just to try it out. 2018-04-16T09:09:50Z elderK: That was the key. 2018-04-16T09:09:52Z elderK: And is the key. 2018-04-16T09:10:09Z elderK: Instead, I see people say "I don't need to learn about trees and ADTs because it's all done and if It wasn't, someone else in a company would do it for me." 2018-04-16T09:10:18Z elderK: "I don't need to learn about graphics and stuff because Unity does it all and I'm a gamedev." 2018-04-16T09:10:22Z elderK: "Unity 4 LYF!" 2018-04-16T09:10:29Z elderK: etc, etc. 2018-04-16T09:10:41Z elderK: I know I shouldn't - but I can't help but judge people like that negatively. 2018-04-16T09:10:51Z elderK: Makes me a bad person. But it just, it angers me so much. 2018-04-16T09:11:00Z makomo: i don't think that you shouldn't :D 2018-04-16T09:11:15Z elderK: I don't care that they don't care about the low-level. But they should have passion about what htey are doing! I mean, Unity will not let them express everything. 2018-04-16T09:11:18Z elderK: They need to learn how to be *Free* 2018-04-16T09:11:20Z makomo: i mean, you surely aren't going to hate them or similar, but seeing how apathetic they are is just lame 2018-04-16T09:11:22Z elderK: And build solutions for themseles. 2018-04-16T09:11:23Z verisimilitude: You can either judge them negatively or use violence, elderK. 2018-04-16T09:11:39Z verisimilitude: In that dichotomy, the former is completely harmless in comparison. 2018-04-16T09:11:56Z elderK: It makes me stick out like a sore thumb at Uni. I have very few friends. 2018-04-16T09:11:57Z elderK: :P 2018-04-16T09:12:03Z elderK: Of course, they are all "kids." 2018-04-16T09:12:17Z makomo: teach them the way, be persistent :D 2018-04-16T09:12:25Z makomo: i mean, i basically transformed this colleague of mine 2018-04-16T09:12:30Z elderK: We're talking 19-24 year olds. I'm 30. When I was their age, I had already written my first kernel and a set of drivers and the like. When I was 19, I lived and breathed it all. 2018-04-16T09:12:31Z makomo: i kept jabbering about lisp, on and on 2018-04-16T09:12:38Z makomo: now he's using emacs and getting into cl 2018-04-16T09:12:41Z elderK: :D 2018-04-16T09:12:54Z elderK: I have been suggesting it to several students - as well as old workmates :) 2018-04-16T09:13:06Z makomo: i'm still going on about lisp. last thing i showed them was interactive opengl 2018-04-16T09:13:07Z elderK: A few, afaik, have taken the links and taken a peek. 2018-04-16T09:13:09Z makomo: minds == blown 2018-04-16T09:13:45Z elderK: People have to realize, the more vantage points you have to examine a problem, the more solutions there are. The more freedom you have. And the potential to build a much greater system, a much... more elegant system. In any language. 2018-04-16T09:14:10Z makomo: i've also told them about Shinmera's (thanks!) little game engine and how he made a presentation in it 2018-04-16T09:14:24Z makomo: wrapping it all up in macros such as define-slide, etc. 2018-04-16T09:14:33Z makomo: and the presentation is fully interactive, the teapot is spinning right in front of you 2018-04-16T09:14:41Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T09:14:42Z makomo: that's was amazing to watch 2018-04-16T09:14:45Z makomo: that* 2018-04-16T09:15:07Z makomo: elderK: yup, but they can't do that until they learn more languages. they don't see how important it is at that level. 2018-04-16T09:15:21Z makomo: once they learn more and more languages and compare their features, they'll be able to see the "essence" of programming 2018-04-16T09:16:13Z makomo: and that's why concrete examples/comparisons, when arguing for any language, is essential i think 2018-04-16T09:16:13Z elderK: makomo: I don't know. I appreciated the variety of things even before I learned of Lisp, even when I used a single language only. That may, however, be due to my focus on kernels and the like. 2018-04-16T09:16:21Z elderK: I studied many different approaches and grew an appreciation for them all. 2018-04-16T09:16:26Z elderK: Then again, we are all different. 2018-04-16T09:16:28Z elderK shrugs 2018-04-16T09:16:55Z makomo: elderK: yeah, some people just have the natural tendency to explore and see many different ways how to do something 2018-04-16T09:17:11Z makomo: some don't, obviously :D 2018-04-16T09:17:56Z makomo: one thing i don't like is how modern languages keep reinventing the wheel with regards to naming stuff 2018-04-16T09:18:06Z makomo: for example Kotlin 2018-04-16T09:18:41Z makomo: sealed classes (really just variants (the adt) from what i've understood, also called enums in rust) 2018-04-16T09:18:58Z makomo: extension methods (just a special name for a certain type of normal functions, but i can get past this one i guess) 2018-04-16T09:19:10Z makomo: companion objects (no clue what this mess is, it includes singletons) 2018-04-16T09:21:02Z hajovonta: when I learnt from Let over lambda that objects are not fundamental, I felt something similar 2018-04-16T09:21:13Z makomo: hajovonta: holy crap that was amazing for me too 2018-04-16T09:21:31Z hajovonta: and then we had a dispute recently with a C++ colleague 2018-04-16T09:21:45Z hajovonta: and I told them that objects can be constructed from let and lambda 2018-04-16T09:21:53Z elderK: I need to get LoL. 2018-04-16T09:21:54Z hajovonta: the reaction was like "what is a lambda?" 2018-04-16T09:22:03Z makomo: hajovonta: exactly, pretty much expected 2018-04-16T09:22:08Z makomo: most people don't know what a closure is 2018-04-16T09:22:25Z makomo: i've told them about let-over-lambda too 2018-04-16T09:22:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:22:35Z makomo: i even showed them an example 2018-04-16T09:22:39Z hajovonta: yes, but they know about "iterators" and "comparators" 2018-04-16T09:22:53Z elderK: man, I remember telling someone about closures. 2018-04-16T09:22:57Z hajovonta: which are basically closures 2018-04-16T09:22:58Z elderK: and there were from Delphi 2018-04-16T09:23:01Z elderK: and were like, oh yeah, __closure! 2018-04-16T09:23:03Z elderK: I knwo all about them! 2018-04-16T09:23:04Z makomo: yeah, they don't get that the *essence* of all that stuff are lambda/closures 2018-04-16T09:23:13Z elderK: It's like... No, no, you really don't :P OBSERVE! :D 2018-04-16T09:23:15Z makomo: that's what i'm talking about when i say "essence" 2018-04-16T09:23:41Z hajovonta: and I mindfully avoid the term "macros", particularly when talking to a C++ guy 2018-04-16T09:23:45Z jack_rabbit: Is there a "go-to" thread pool library for CL? 2018-04-16T09:23:56Z makomo: hajovonta: oh boy, macros are one of my *favorite* things to talk about :D 2018-04-16T09:24:07Z makomo: hajovonta: and i explicitly mention how different they are from C++ 2018-04-16T09:24:16Z makomo: and then i mention how all of the fear mongering for C++'s macros are dumb 2018-04-16T09:24:19Z makomo: is dumb* 2018-04-16T09:24:23Z makomo: DON'T USE MACROS!!!!! 2018-04-16T09:24:31Z makomo: nobody ever explains in detail what the issues are 2018-04-16T09:24:46Z makomo: but if you take a look at a macro system like lisp, you will instantly see the problems 2018-04-16T09:24:53Z makomo: you will see the essence of what's wrong with C++'s macro system 2018-04-16T09:25:17Z jack_rabbit: Which C++ macro system? ;) 2018-04-16T09:25:32Z makomo: the fear that came through fearmongering will disappear, because now you'll know what exactly is the difference 2018-04-16T09:25:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T09:25:42Z hajovonta: yes, because you have knowledge about it. But the other guy has something else in his mind about macros 2018-04-16T09:25:58Z makomo: exactly, which is why you need to explaint to him clearly what it is 2018-04-16T09:26:07Z hajovonta: it's unfortunate that the same word is used for these completely different concepts 2018-04-16T09:26:10Z makomo: now this might or might not always be possible, but at least describe to him what the gist is 2018-04-16T09:26:12Z makomo: yeah, true 2018-04-16T09:26:21Z makomo: lots of these words are overloaded all the time, that's just cs/it 2018-04-16T09:26:24Z makomo: it is how it is 2018-04-16T09:26:27Z verisimilitude: Make sure he doesn't think it's a github gist, either. 2018-04-16T09:26:51Z makomo: another very interesting thing is that, once you see what lisp can do, the difference between compile-time and run-time is basically non-existent 2018-04-16T09:27:47Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:28:13Z hajovonta: makomo: when I showed how an expression is evaluated, I instantly created an expression that lisp is an interpreted language. 2018-04-16T09:28:32Z makomo: hajovonta: almost everyone asked me "soo lisp is an interpreted language?" 2018-04-16T09:28:39Z makomo: the looks on their faces when i tell them that it's compiled, oh man 2018-04-16T09:28:44Z hajovonta: and then we unconsciously jumped to the conclusion that lisp is slow because it's interpreted 2018-04-16T09:28:49Z makomo: SAME 2018-04-16T09:28:53Z makomo: always the same shitty stuff 2018-04-16T09:29:05Z verisimilitude: Well, it's been fun, but I'm finished for now. 2018-04-16T09:29:05Z makomo: hajovonta: a good example for "it's slow hurr", it the cl-ppcre example from LoL 2018-04-16T09:29:07Z verisimilitude quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-16T09:29:33Z makomo: it's just something that languages like C/C++ can't do, unless they write a compiler on the side to do it 2018-04-16T09:29:45Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T09:29:50Z hajovonta: makomo: yes, but I'm yet struggling with making my programs really fast 2018-04-16T09:29:53Z makomo: (i'm referring to implementing regexes as VMs and then compiling that bytecode to native code) 2018-04-16T09:30:15Z hajovonta: not that I'm overly interested in the topic though 2018-04-16T09:30:46Z makomo: i guess, but you have to be ready to tell them they're wrong so that they won't get the wrong picture about lisp :-) 2018-04-16T09:30:48Z elderK quit (Quit: Late!) 2018-04-16T09:31:22Z hajovonta: well I usually just point out that their code in C++ does much less than mine in Lisp 2018-04-16T09:31:24Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T09:31:32Z jack_rabbit: hajovonta, what methods are you using to optimize? 2018-04-16T09:31:40Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:32:11Z makomo: hajovonta: also showing them the example from PCL is pretty nice, how a generic + operation can be compiled into just 3-4 instructions with proper optimizations 2018-04-16T09:32:32Z hajovonta: jack_rabbit: I'm usually give type hints 2018-04-16T09:32:53Z hajovonta: and compiler declarations and such 2018-04-16T09:33:02Z jack_rabbit: cool. 2018-04-16T09:34:02Z hajovonta: jack_rabbit: then I just say, aha, do you have the overflow thing? You must include an overflow protection to your C++ program 2018-04-16T09:34:12Z makomo: oh another cool example from cl-ppcre is register-groups-bind 2018-04-16T09:34:26Z makomo: which is a macro which binds the symbols you give it to the captured groups of the regex 2018-04-16T09:34:30Z makomo: so nice and clean 2018-04-16T09:34:40Z hajovonta: and then: do you check and change type when it's too small to accomodate your number? 2018-04-16T09:34:52Z makomo: basically a LET but with the results of the regex 2018-04-16T09:35:20Z jack_rabbit: hajovonta, Yes, having unbounded ints is a great leisure in CL. I'm very grateful to have them. :) 2018-04-16T09:35:23Z makomo: hajovonta: i've avoided the whole bignum thing most of the time because it's not that special imo. python has bignums too for example 2018-04-16T09:35:39Z makomo: but CL has a great numerical stack 2018-04-16T09:35:53Z makomo: functions like floor, ceiling, round are pretty well thought out 2018-04-16T09:36:00Z jack_rabbit: makomo, are python's ints big by default, though? I thought it was a special type. 2018-04-16T09:36:03Z makomo: the logarithm of a negative number actually returns a complex number 2018-04-16T09:36:10Z hajovonta: makomo: yes. python has a nicer color than Java/C++ 2018-04-16T09:36:20Z makomo: jack_rabbit: i think so? i remember computing huge fibonacci numbers and everything was fine 2018-04-16T09:36:29Z jack_rabbit: hmm. I'll have to check. 2018-04-16T09:36:49Z makomo: i'm not sure what the logarithm of a negative number would be in python 2018-04-16T09:36:51Z makomo: let's see 2018-04-16T09:37:20Z makomo: >math domain error 2018-04-16T09:37:22Z makomo: hah! 2018-04-16T09:37:27Z makomo: now try it in lisp and see what you get 2018-04-16T09:37:36Z hajovonta: last time I asked my colleague, what does he think, "5.0" is an integer or a floating-point number? 2018-04-16T09:37:44Z jack_rabbit: makomo, ahh, yes. You are correct about Python's ints. 2018-04-16T09:38:03Z jack_rabbit: hajovonta, It's a string. ;) 2018-04-16T09:38:09Z hajovonta: ohh ok 2018-04-16T09:38:17Z hajovonta: let me express it in another way :) 2018-04-16T09:38:19Z makomo: (log -10) # => #C(2.3025851 3.1415927) 2018-04-16T09:38:21Z makomo: amazing 2018-04-16T09:38:22Z jack_rabbit: hehehe 2018-04-16T09:38:25Z hajovonta: but you get the point 2018-04-16T09:38:35Z jack_rabbit: hajovonta, Yes. What did he say? 2018-04-16T09:38:50Z hajovonta: he said something like "I' confused" 2018-04-16T09:39:01Z makomo: lol 2018-04-16T09:39:13Z hajovonta: and: "it's a float because you have a decimal point" 2018-04-16T09:40:01Z jack_rabbit: Is that not correct? CL reads 5.0 as a SINGLE-FLOAT. 2018-04-16T09:40:09Z jack_rabbit: *my* CL 2018-04-16T09:40:26Z hajovonta: I just used the example to show the difference between a number representation and the actual number 2018-04-16T09:40:33Z jack_rabbit: I see. 2018-04-16T09:40:38Z hajovonta: yes, CL takes it as float, too 2018-04-16T09:40:52Z makomo: another great example to blow their minds is CLOS tbh 2018-04-16T09:41:00Z makomo: you know, i've learned the most about OOP from CLOS 2018-04-16T09:41:04Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, CLOS is fantastic. 2018-04-16T09:41:05Z makomo: that's when i was enlightened about OOP 2018-04-16T09:41:09Z makomo: i finally saw the way 2018-04-16T09:41:10Z jack_rabbit: makomo, same here. 2018-04-16T09:41:12Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-16T09:41:19Z makomo: i saw the two versions -- the single-dispatch one, and the generic functions one 2018-04-16T09:41:23Z makomo: finally i saw the essence 2018-04-16T09:41:26Z hajovonta: jack_rabbit: try this (= 5 5.0) 2018-04-16T09:41:33Z makomo: and then came MOP, oh boy, i couldn't believe what was going on 2018-04-16T09:41:41Z makomo: i was talking to my friend about MOP the other day 2018-04-16T09:41:45Z makomo: amazing stuff 2018-04-16T09:42:05Z jack_rabbit: hajovonta, Yep. But the numbers do have different types. It just allows us to compare them. 2018-04-16T09:42:18Z makomo: *another* great thing are conditions, i.e. "resumable exceptions" as they're called in other circles 2018-04-16T09:42:41Z makomo: but CLOS is definitely something special 2018-04-16T09:42:56Z makomo: most of the people who i mention CLOS to can't believe how a method can not belong to a class 2018-04-16T09:43:06Z makomo: then i tell them about the visitor pattern and multiple dispatch in CLOS 2018-04-16T09:43:12Z jack_rabbit: makomo, yeah, restarts are another thing I consistently miss when not writing CL. 2018-04-16T09:43:15Z hajovonta: yes, it's the same object in the world, with different representation. 2018-04-16T09:43:29Z makomo: jack_rabbit: yup, they're really cool 2018-04-16T09:43:30Z jack_rabbit: yep 2018-04-16T09:44:03Z jack_rabbit: makomo, I rarely use them, but when I do, they're indespensible. That's true of many tools CL provides. 2018-04-16T09:44:26Z makomo: i've only recently started to get to know them better, but it's still awesome 2018-04-16T09:45:08Z makomo: and it's amazing how all of these ideas were created 40+ years ago 2018-04-16T09:45:39Z hajovonta: we have a saying "nothing is new under the Sun" 2018-04-16T09:45:48Z jack_rabbit: Yeah. I chuckle when someone tells me about their favorite lanugage's "new feature" and how genius it is. 2018-04-16T09:45:57Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:45:58Z makomo: jack_rabbit: yeah lol, every time :') 2018-04-16T09:46:04Z jack_rabbit: :) 2018-04-16T09:46:38Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T09:46:41Z makomo: i like to refer to lisp in general as the knowledge of the ancients, the ancient scrolls 2018-04-16T09:46:54Z hajovonta: and when you say "I implemented this new feature into my language", that's completely alien to them 2018-04-16T09:46:54Z makomo: most people can't believe when i tell them i'm reading/learning about some language that was made 60 years ago 2018-04-16T09:47:11Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:47:30Z makomo: in general i think that the it industry doesn't have very much appreciation for the past 2018-04-16T09:47:35Z makomo: everybody wants to rewrite everything 2018-04-16T09:48:01Z makomo: everything that wasn't made in the last 5 years is so uncool and old and broken 2018-04-16T09:48:03Z hajovonta: if a library hasn't seen any edits since 3 years, it's considered abandonware 2018-04-16T09:48:27Z makomo: yep, and lisp has taught me to get rid of this feeling and appreciate the old papers, the old articles, the old code 2018-04-16T09:48:31Z makomo: so much to be discovered 2018-04-16T09:49:02Z hajovonta: Unicode wasn't even here when lisp was invented, and now we use Unicode CLs 2018-04-16T09:49:15Z makomo: hah yeah 2018-04-16T09:49:31Z makomo: and the whole story about how CLOS is really a library on top of lisp 2018-04-16T09:50:13Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:51:10Z TMA: well, most code is crap (because it is written by humans), the practitioners are (unconsiously) aware of that. The desire to rewrite is (a) there are bugs for sure, it is easier to rewrite than to fix (b) at least it will somewhat work for my use case 2018-04-16T09:52:08Z makomo: TMA: sometimes it makes sense, i agree. but for example when you mention Emacs to most people, they all go "eww, why would you use such an old editor?? use something modern like intellij, look at all of the cool features i has!" 2018-04-16T09:52:48Z makomo: i loved the moment a few days ago where, after all of the buildup from my CL stories, i showed the guy that Emacs itself is just a huge lisp system 2018-04-16T09:52:48Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:52:57Z makomo: evaluating the code in front of his eyes and seeing the change instantly 2018-04-16T09:54:27Z hajovonta: I plan to make a demo for the colleagues on Emacs 2018-04-16T09:55:09Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T09:55:13Z makomo: i use spacemacs which some consider to be bloated, but i like the ease of configuration (when it works) + the default vim keybinds 2018-04-16T09:55:15Z hajovonta: because recently I got a question that why I'm bothering with that 2018-04-16T09:55:23Z makomo: vim's keybinds + emacs' extensibility (lisp) is the best combination for me 2018-04-16T09:55:32Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T09:55:43Z TMA: makomo: to be frank, I have to admit that intellij has its merits for editing java. 2018-04-16T09:55:53Z makomo: TMA: i also agree with that, it's pretty polished 2018-04-16T09:56:07Z makomo: but most of them cling onto intellij because it's so shiiiiny! 2018-04-16T09:56:12Z makomo: it's new, it's cool 2018-04-16T09:56:23Z TMA: makomo: not that the features are impossible in emacs, but noone has yet written it 2018-04-16T09:56:32Z makomo: yeah, no one even wants to bother, which is ok 2018-04-16T09:56:43Z makomo: if i had to do java, i'd probably use eclipse/intellij myself, it's just how it is 2018-04-16T09:56:50Z makomo: but the whole notion that, if something is old it must be bad, is wrong 2018-04-16T09:57:08Z makomo: although i would first like to try out eclim 2018-04-16T09:57:30Z makomo: (it marries eclipse and emacs, basically runs eclipse in the background in headless mode and provides completions for emacs) 2018-04-16T09:58:22Z makomo: most of the stuff that another friend was telling me about, how cool all of these features are in intellij and how eclipse doens't have them, was plain wrong 2018-04-16T09:58:33Z makomo: eclipse had all of them, he just never even tried to use them because intellij is new and better 2018-04-16T09:58:47Z TMA: makomo: it is a natural feeling, most people consider themselves young _and_ better than anyone else (it is a well established fact of human psychology). they just mistake their own personal bias/delusions with natural laws 2018-04-16T09:58:49Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:00:48Z jack_rabbit: I began writing some tools for Java editing in emacs, but got frustrated, and decided just not to write Java anymore. 2018-04-16T10:01:01Z TMA: when editing java, I routinely use all three big ides -- eclipse, netbeans and intellij. 2018-04-16T10:01:12Z makomo: TMA: yeah, this guy does have that vibe to him sometimes :D 2018-04-16T10:02:11Z jack_rabbit: makomo, I gave eclim a fair shot, but found it unintuitive. It seemed to get in the way more than it was helpful. 2018-04-16T10:02:41Z makomo: jack_rabbit: ah :^(. what was the worst part about it? 2018-04-16T10:02:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:03:27Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:03:28Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:03:30Z jack_rabbit: makomo, It seemed inconsistent. There were also some features that seemed to require a fixed window layout. I'm not sure how they hacked emacs to behave that way, but it was very strange. 2018-04-16T10:03:48Z makomo: jack_rabbit: hm interesting. i'll have to give it a shot soon 2018-04-16T10:04:13Z jack_rabbit: makomo, Basically instead of providing tools and such to use with my regular work flow, it seemed to require me to conform to its rigid rules. 2018-04-16T10:04:46Z jack_rabbit: makomo, Also, it seemed to work pretty inconsistently. But YMMV. 2018-04-16T10:04:52Z makomo: mhm 2018-04-16T10:05:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:05:56Z jack_rabbit: I ended up just going back to my sed and grep scripts for finding classes and stuff. :) 2018-04-16T10:06:09Z makomo: hahaha 2018-04-16T10:06:12Z makomo: oh well :D 2018-04-16T10:06:48Z makomo: in conclusion, i consider CL/Lisp to be one of the most important discoveries i've made 2018-04-16T10:07:08Z makomo: it has opened my eyes to many things, and allowed me to see the essence of many language features 2018-04-16T10:08:20Z tokamach joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:08:51Z jack_rabbit: I have written a couple of import-related emacs functions for Java: https://gist.github.com/knusbaum/a0934a7a6de986420e683704a38bf58f 2018-04-16T10:08:59Z jack_rabbit: They seem to work fairly well. 2018-04-16T10:09:27Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:10:12Z makomo: nice 2018-04-16T10:10:35Z makomo: i have to learn more of the emacs api to be able to do anything non-trivial with emacs 2018-04-16T10:11:06Z makomo: learning emacs lisp is easy. it's the emacs ideas/internals/apis you need to really learn 2018-04-16T10:11:19Z jack_rabbit: Yes. And they're not great, TBH. 2018-04-16T10:11:29Z jack_rabbit: I don't really enjoy writing elisp. 2018-04-16T10:12:16Z makomo: sometimes it's a bit confusing, even more so since i'm using spacemacs and then some stuff doens't really work as described 2018-04-16T10:12:22Z makomo: because spacemacs has either overriden it, etc. 2018-04-16T10:12:41Z makomo: using something like spacemacs is both good and bad 2018-04-16T10:12:44Z jack_rabbit: Never tried spacemacs. Why do you use it? 2018-04-16T10:13:06Z makomo: it allowed me to get a quick start on emacs and make me feel at home with its vim keybinds 2018-04-16T10:13:19Z jack_rabbit: gotcha. 2018-04-16T10:13:37Z makomo: the greatest thing about vim are its keybinds and the whole concept of modal editing imo 2018-04-16T10:13:50Z makomo: settuping up that by myself when i was just starting out would be a suicide mission 2018-04-16T10:13:58Z makomo: setting up* 2018-04-16T10:14:21Z makomo: so i'm glad something like spacemacs exists, and it's good to introduce newbies too because of the familiar vim keybinds/modes 2018-04-16T10:14:53Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, the learning curve is real. 2018-04-16T10:15:02Z makomo: now when i know more about lisp, i'm considering going back to raw emacs and trying to do it myself, but we'll see about that 2018-04-16T10:15:11Z jack_rabbit: I have never been a fan of modal editing. 2018-04-16T10:15:18Z makomo: ah really? 2018-04-16T10:15:26Z makomo: it was one of my revelations :D 2018-04-16T10:15:30Z jack_rabbit: :) 2018-04-16T10:16:14Z jack_rabbit: I've never found it that useful. I just hold down Ctrl and issue commands. I guess it's sort of like a rapid mode switch. 2018-04-16T10:16:31Z jack_rabbit: No Ctrl - input mode, Ctrl - command mode. 2018-04-16T10:16:38Z jack_rabbit: or meta, or whatever. 2018-04-16T10:17:09Z makomo: when you start out you're in "normal mode", to enter insert mode you just press "i", and then "ESC" to go back to normal mode 2018-04-16T10:17:17Z makomo: while in normal mode i just use "hjkl" to move around 2018-04-16T10:17:37Z makomo: with other appropriate motions, etc. 2018-04-16T10:17:49Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with vim. 2018-04-16T10:17:57Z jack_rabbit: I know how to get around, anyway. :) 2018-04-16T10:18:29Z makomo: :-) 2018-04-16T10:20:03Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:20:52Z KZiemian joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:20:56Z jack_rabbit: Does anyone know who maintains cliki.net? 2018-04-16T10:21:08Z KZiemian: If some one here is on ELS 2018-04-16T10:21:23Z KZiemian: Happy celebrating 60 years of Lisp and it future!!! 2018-04-16T10:21:41Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:21:57Z KZiemian: I want to be with you but due to timidity I mess it up 2018-04-16T10:22:51Z jack_rabbit: KZiemian, welcome! 2018-04-16T10:23:44Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:24:52Z hajovonta: first I used Emacs in cua mode. for years. 2018-04-16T10:25:12Z hajovonta: then I slowly became more hardcore and disabled it. 2018-04-16T10:25:48Z hajovonta: I now use the old C-f, C-b etc. keybindings to navigate around 2018-04-16T10:26:11Z hajovonta: this is because it was hard to switch when I used paredit to navigate lisp code 2018-04-16T10:26:20Z KZiemian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:27:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:28:49Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-16T10:29:15Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:30:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-16T10:33:34Z TMA: the problem with the default emacs keybinding for me is my supershort pinky finger. that and the left ctrl being too far, the right too awkwardly positioned. 2018-04-16T10:35:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:35:55Z hajovonta: I swapped the capslock and left ctrl for the same reason 2018-04-16T10:36:14Z hajovonta: it was real easy to get used to 2018-04-16T10:36:37Z playful-owl joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:40:10Z p_l: TMA: get a classic full size keyboard and use opposite hands for modifier keys? 2018-04-16T10:45:39Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: are you at the ELS ? 2018-04-16T10:46:01Z jackdaniel: yes 2018-04-16T10:46:34Z jackdaniel: I saw your peer review, thanks 2018-04-16T10:48:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:50:37Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:51:07Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-16T10:57:05Z dim: is it possible to build SBCL in a way that the sbcl binary then contains extra .so dependencies, such as openssl.so or sqlite.so? 2018-04-16T10:57:49Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T10:58:28Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:00:21Z jack_rabbit: dim, Is there a reason you want to do that? 2018-04-16T11:02:17Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-16T11:02:33Z tokamach quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-16T11:03:31Z dim: yeah, to avoid having to dlopen from the image when it's possible that the symbol found at dlopen won't match the symbols found at image creation time 2018-04-16T11:04:38Z dim: now that I had to write this, I wonder if having the .so in the binary header rather than used with dlopen() is going to have an impact on the problem... 2018-04-16T11:05:33Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:05:51Z p_l: dim: you might want to write a hook before save-lisp-and-die, which dumps a list of shared objects, copies them to where the image is to be saved, and rewrites the list to contain image-relative paths 2018-04-16T11:06:31Z p_l: but getting dlopen to link code from arbitrary memory location might be tricky 2018-04-16T11:06:53Z p_l: (unless your bootstrap code unpacks them to filesystem before calling dlopen() ) 2018-04-16T11:08:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:13:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-16T11:16:15Z hutchi quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-16T11:17:40Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:18:20Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:19:57Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T11:20:01Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:21:42Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T11:23:56Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:31:08Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:32:10Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T11:35:15Z kushal- is now known as kushal 2018-04-16T11:35:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:36:40Z lieven: there was a tool called statifier that did something like that 2018-04-16T11:39:10Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:42:47Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:44:45Z ebrasca: p_l: Hi 2018-04-16T11:53:11Z p_l: ebrasca: hello! 2018-04-16T11:53:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hi ebrasca and p_l 2018-04-16T11:54:26Z shka: ebrasca: hi 2018-04-16T11:54:30Z shka: p_l: hello 2018-04-16T11:57:05Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T11:58:10Z dddddd_ is now known as dddddd 2018-04-16T12:07:40Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:09:42Z hutchi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T12:09:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:10:17Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:10:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:12:58Z Bindler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T12:13:17Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-16T12:14:02Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-16T12:15:02Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:17:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:17:33Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T12:18:55Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:20:45Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:22:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:23:02Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:23:12Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-16T12:26:32Z ddrbt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:27:27Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:27:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:29:04Z kozy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T12:29:59Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:31:52Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:33:42Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:36:34Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:37:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:39:39Z agspathis quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.0.50)) 2018-04-16T12:41:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:42:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:42:59Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:44:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T12:44:38Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:48:37Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:56:19Z fzappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T12:57:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:58:05Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T12:58:27Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T12:58:53Z ebrasca: Is there some library for visualizing functions relations in common lisp? 2018-04-16T13:00:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:02:17Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T13:02:27Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T13:02:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-16T13:05:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:05:18Z jack_rabbit: ebrasca, function relations? 2018-04-16T13:06:22Z ebrasca: jack_rabbit: Like function a used by function b. 2018-04-16T13:08:28Z jack_rabbit: Ahh. Not that I know of. 2018-04-16T13:11:04Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:15:22Z eminhi joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:17:24Z pierpal: ebrasca: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/tools/xref/0.html 2018-04-16T13:17:48Z pierpal: and probably hundreds more 2018-04-16T13:18:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:20:09Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:20:14Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T13:20:46Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-16T13:23:08Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T13:30:07Z p_l: The big problem is getting xref out 2018-04-16T13:30:24Z p_l: Then you can render it with graphviz or whatever 2018-04-16T13:31:41Z pierpal: ? 2018-04-16T13:35:49Z ddrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-16T13:38:03Z p_l: Regarding visualising function dependencies 2018-04-16T13:38:14Z p_l: Did that recently with T-SQL 2018-04-16T13:38:21Z p_l: Was hellish 2018-04-16T13:48:32Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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shka: puchacz: you can bind dynamic variables when thread starts 2018-04-16T14:33:32Z puchacz: I am not sure about semantics of special variables; (let ((*special-var* (random-string))) ....) for example ? 2018-04-16T14:33:51Z shka: for instance, but i would rather use (gensym) 2018-04-16T14:33:54Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-16T14:34:07Z shka: instead of string 2018-04-16T14:34:24Z puchacz: shka: ok... thanks 2018-04-16T14:34:36Z shka: should be simple enough 2018-04-16T14:35:21Z shka: puchacz: does that answer your question? 2018-04-16T14:36:06Z puchacz: shka: yes, it will work. however I was hoping I could have a mechanism that works for all threads I can encounter, not only these I create or control somehow 2018-04-16T14:36:16Z shka: hmmm 2018-04-16T14:36:43Z puchacz: for truly ThreadLocal variables, I could just (unless (threadlocal :name) (setf (threadlocal :name) (gensym)) 2018-04-16T14:36:49Z shka: i don't know way to do that 2018-04-16T14:37:07Z puchacz: without any locking or anything like this, because they would be thread local 2018-04-16T14:37:08Z shka: myself, i almost always try to use lparallel whenever it makes sense 2018-04-16T14:37:12Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T14:37:29Z puchacz: I know lparallel, btw it names all threads "lparallel" :) 2018-04-16T14:37:42Z shka: yup 2018-04-16T14:38:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T14:38:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-16T14:39:13Z shka: anyway, i don't run into thread issues, mostly because i am really good at avoiding explicit synchronization :P 2018-04-16T14:39:24Z puchacz: :) 2018-04-16T14:39:34Z puchacz: I am poor at multithreading 2018-04-16T14:39:46Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-16T14:40:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T14:40:44Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T14:40:48Z krasnal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T14:40:55Z shka: everybody is, just don't try to be smart, keep things simple and separated and you are fine 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seconds) 2018-04-16T17:26:58Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T17:28:13Z puchacz: hi, in unwind-protect, will cleanup body be executed even if return-from the whole function? 2018-04-16T17:28:36Z equwal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:29:24Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:29:26Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:31:05Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:31:17Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T17:31:41Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:31:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:31:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:32:33Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-16T17:35:17Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:35:32Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:36:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T17:36:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T17:37:42Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:37:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:41:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T17:41:58Z Baggers: puchacz: yup 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240 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:06:41Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T18:07:11Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:07:58Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T18:08:12Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:08:21Z makomo: i would like to use conses as keys into my hashtable but i would like a special equality test for them 2018-04-16T18:08:46Z makomo: two keys would compare equal if the stuff in the cons itself is EQ/EQL 2018-04-16T18:08:55Z makomo: i don't want EQ/EQL to be performed on the cons itself 2018-04-16T18:09:15Z makomo: what are my options? i don't think the standard hash table allows me to do this 2018-04-16T18:09:31Z dtornabene quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T18:10:10Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:10:57Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-16T18:11:57Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:12:49Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:17:47Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:18:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T18:18:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:20:26Z cage_: maybe: https://github.com/metawilm/cl-custom-hash-table 2018-04-16T18:22:07Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T18:22:17Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:22:31Z shka_: makomo: just use equal 2018-04-16T18:22:44Z makomo: shka_: but that will recursively use EQUAL right? 2018-04-16T18:22:51Z shka_: yes 2018-04-16T18:23:02Z makomo: but i can guarantee that the car and cdr can be compared using just EQ/EQL 2018-04-16T18:23:28Z shka_: use equal, benchmark 2018-04-16T18:23:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:23:33Z cross joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:23:36Z shka_: if it matters, optimize 2018-04-16T18:23:40Z shka_: i don't think it will 2018-04-16T18:24:04Z makomo: that's also a good point i guess 2018-04-16T18:24:11Z makomo: i mean, it certainly won't matter, i'm pretty sure of that 2018-04-16T18:24:18Z makomo: just wanted to see if there's some other nice way 2018-04-16T18:27:33Z shka_: makomo: custom-hash-table, if you really want to 2018-04-16T18:27:52Z makomo: mhm, ok 2018-04-16T18:28:05Z shka_: but honestly, it is not really practical 2018-04-16T18:28:31Z shka_: in your case, that's it 2018-04-16T18:28:59Z shka_: if you need to use a vector as a key, well, it makes things very different! 2018-04-16T18:29:08Z shka_: but it is not your case 2018-04-16T18:30:27Z shka_: makomo: i mean, your time can be used in better way 2018-04-16T18:30:32Z makomo: shka_: could you describe the situation with the vector a little more? 2018-04-16T18:30:35Z makomo: yeah, true :D 2018-04-16T18:30:43Z makomo: if i had lots of elements or something? 2018-04-16T18:30:49Z shka_: heh 2018-04-16T18:30:52Z shka_: check this out 2018-04-16T18:31:20Z shka_: (sxhash #(1 2 3 4 5)) 2018-04-16T18:31:22Z palmtree quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-16T18:31:28Z shka_: 1193941381096739655 2018-04-16T18:31:38Z shka_: (sxhash #(1 2 3)) 2018-04-16T18:31:53Z shka_: 1193941381096739655 (in sbcl) 2018-04-16T18:32:18Z makomo: ohh 2018-04-16T18:32:21Z shka_: yup 2018-04-16T18:32:27Z makomo: hm well, that's "just" a collision 2018-04-16T18:32:31Z makomo: stuff like that happens i guess? 2018-04-16T18:32:31Z sjl: If you want to use vectors as keys based on their contents, you need to use #'equalp, but that will also make strings ignore case 2018-04-16T18:33:03Z shka_: makomo: sxhash will always return same number for vector 2018-04-16T18:33:14Z makomo: oh LOL 2018-04-16T18:33:18Z shka_: so let's say you want to hash binary blobs 2018-04-16T18:33:23Z shka_: you are screwed :P 2018-04-16T18:33:33Z shka_: and sure, hashtable will work 2018-04-16T18:33:39Z shka_: because that's just collision 2018-04-16T18:33:46Z shka_: but i degenerates to O(n) 2018-04-16T18:33:58Z sjl: sxhash doesn't always return the same number for vectors 2018-04-16T18:34:07Z sjl: (sxhash "foo") (sxhash "bar") 2018-04-16T18:34:27Z shka_: oh gosh 2018-04-16T18:35:11Z sjl: SBCL's does seem to do it for non-string vectors, which is odd 2018-04-16T18:35:37Z shka_: sjl: actually, if you want to be so anal about sxhash, standard allows returning same number for every string as well 2018-04-16T18:35:44Z sjl: sure 2018-04-16T18:35:58Z shka_: and sbcl does that for non-string vectors 2018-04-16T18:36:17Z shka_: it won't matter if you use 'eq as comparsion 2018-04-16T18:36:28Z sjl: (defun sxhash (o) 1) 2018-04-16T18:36:28Z shka_: but anyway, it is something to remember 2018-04-16T18:36:57Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-16T18:37:10Z shka_: makomo: and if you want to use some sort of objected defined with defclass 2018-04-16T18:37:11Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:37:44Z shka_: there is plenty of use cases for custom hashtables, but it is not worth to use it if you can simply use equal 2018-04-16T18:37:58Z makomo: mhm, got it 2018-04-16T18:38:08Z shka_: yay 2018-04-16T18:38:13Z shka_: i feel so useful 2018-04-16T18:38:20Z makomo: haha :-) 2018-04-16T18:38:43Z makomo: i mean, it would definitely be overkill, but using the chance to explore other options is always nice 2018-04-16T18:39:00Z shka_: i guess 2018-04-16T18:41:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:46:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:51:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T18:54:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:57:19Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-16T18:58:04Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:00:03Z puchacz: Baggers: ok, thanks 2018-04-16T19:01:13Z markong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T19:02:27Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:02:32Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:02:42Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T19:04:46Z puchacz: shka: you said you use lparallel for multithreading, anything else please? 2018-04-16T19:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:05:28Z puchacz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T19:05:43Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:06:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:07:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:08:05Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:09:17Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:12:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:16:23Z palmtree joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:20:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:20:48Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-16T19:21:54Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-16T19:22:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:22:24Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:24:21Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:27:49Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:28:05Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:32:13Z lnostdal quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-16T19:32:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:33:52Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-16T19:35:01Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T19:40:17Z doesthiswork: (OPERATE 'TEST-OP :CFFI-TESTS) don't match lambda list (O C) 2018-04-16T19:40:36Z doesthiswork: version 0.19.0 of CFFI 2018-04-16T19:40:48Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-16T19:46:13Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:47:55Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:48:19Z Baggers: doesthiswork: a bit quiet here today, maybe due to ELS. If you have time it could be worth reporting this on the mailing list. 2018-04-16T19:48:37Z doesthiswork: thank you 2018-04-16T19:48:56Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T19:49:14Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:49:19Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T19:49:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-16T19:49:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:51:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:52:06Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-16T19:52:25Z palmtree quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2018-04-16T22:32:56Z edgar-rft: comborico1611, you mean this one? 2018-04-16T22:33:42Z comborico1611: edgar-rft: Yes! What is this? 2018-04-16T22:33:59Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T22:34:10Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T22:34:46Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-16T22:35:05Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:35:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:36:14Z edgar-rft: comborico1611, it once was designed by a guy named Manfred Spiller, AFAIK it was never used by any paricular project, it just was a suggestion how a Lisp Logo could look like. There are several copies of that logo on various GitHub etc. repositories. 2018-04-16T22:36:50Z comborico1611: It is a great logo. 2018-04-16T22:36:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T22:38:52Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T22:38:56Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:39:09Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T22:40:49Z edgar-rft: It's the best Lisp Logo I know of :-) think it first appeared in context of this comp.lang.lisp discussion: 2018-04-16T22:41:25Z comborico1611: It's a very regretable it isn't being used far and wide. 2018-04-16T22:41:50Z pierpa: the professional hand shows through 2018-04-16T22:42:23Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T22:42:37Z comborico1611: I am very convinced that logo will be copied and used for something major. 2018-04-16T22:42:52Z pierpa: the alien logo is cute too 2018-04-16T22:43:02Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-16T22:43:03Z comborico1611: It is very 90s. 2018-04-16T22:43:13Z cgay: It was used on my coffee mug. 2018-04-16T22:44:02Z pierpa: http://lisperati.com/logo.html 2018-04-16T22:45:21Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:45:33Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:47:12Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T22:47:53Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:48:33Z comborico1611: I need some help with this. https://hastebin.com/aquzakacat.lisp 2018-04-16T22:49:22Z comborico1611: I can't understand the error message. I'm just doing this for a quick fun thing. I've been away from Lisp for a month or so. 2018-04-16T22:50:15Z comborico1611: You'll need to ignore the perl-ish stuff. Just experiementing with readability a bit. 2018-04-16T22:50:34Z atdmpz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T22:51:46Z pillton: The (list form) is not within the lexical scope of the (let* ..) form. 2018-04-16T22:51:55Z pillton: The (list..) form sorry. 2018-04-16T22:51:59Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-16T22:52:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:52:24Z comborico1611: So I'm not adhering to the structure of let*? 2018-04-16T22:52:55Z hutchi quit (Quit: hutchi) 2018-04-16T22:53:04Z pillton: comborico1611: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 2018-04-16T22:53:32Z comborico1611: Heh. Alright. Yeah, I've been away and it's taken its toll. 2018-04-16T22:53:47Z comborico1611: Other than that, does it look like i'm on the right track? 2018-04-16T22:55:03Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:55:21Z pillton: I suggest you read a bit more of the book I linked. 2018-04-16T22:55:23Z kerrhau quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-16T22:56:09Z comborico1611: Roger that. Thanks for taking a look at the post! 2018-04-16T22:57:49Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-16T22:58:42Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:59:02Z hutchi quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-16T22:59:16Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-16T22:59:45Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:00:36Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:02:29Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2018-04-16T23:03:00Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:04:22Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:09:13Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-16T23:10:34Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:11:39Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:12:32Z pillton: You are welcome. 2018-04-16T23:19:26Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:20:32Z kukuruznik joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:21:21Z kukuruznik: Anyone here know about linking C++ files in Emacs? Both the C++ and Emacs IRC channels require this authorization thingy. 2018-04-16T23:21:34Z kukuruznik: This seems like the next best place to ask about Emacs. 2018-04-16T23:24:27Z theemacsshibe joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:24:31Z theemacsshibe: hi 2018-04-16T23:26:14Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:30:40Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:31:34Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:31:50Z kukuruznik quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-16T23:33:08Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:34:09Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:37:01Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:41:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:44:45Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-16T23:46:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:48:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-16T23:51:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:53:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-16T23:53:38Z Anthaas_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 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It adds the element at the current value of the fill pointer and then increments the fill pointer by one, returning the index where the new element was added.", however, can you do something a la C: int a[5]; a[3] = some_value; <- In the sense you can use arbitrary the indexes of the array? 2018-04-17T03:51:21Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T03:51:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T03:52:41Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-17T03:55:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T03:56:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T03:57:40Z pierpa: of course 2018-04-17T03:58:00Z pierpa: a resizable vector is just a vector 2018-04-17T03:58:28Z pierpa: and to use VECTOR-PUSH, it must have a fill-pointer 2018-04-17T04:00:47Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-17T04:00:50Z asarch: How would you do that with a fixed-size vector? 2018-04-17T04:01:03Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:01:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:01:45Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:02:52Z gbyers_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z Duns_Scrotus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z gbyers quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:08Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:03:09Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-17T04:03:09Z gbyers_ is now known as gbyers 2018-04-17T04:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:05:42Z reu quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:05:57Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:05:58Z reu joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:06:27Z arbv joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:06:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:09:39Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:09:56Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-17T04:09:56Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:10:34Z Duns_Scrotus joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:11:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:13:26Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:13:46Z theBlack1ragon joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:14:29Z bheesham1 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:16:51Z bheesham quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:16:51Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:16:51Z theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 2018-04-17T04:16:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:18:45Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:19:18Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2018-04-17T04:20:51Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T04:21:04Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:21:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:22:29Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T04:25:40Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-17T04:26:22Z pierpal: (setf (aref a 3) some-value) 2018-04-17T04:27:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:32:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:34:00Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-17T04:34:22Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T04:34:31Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:36:18Z asarch: Thank you pierpal 2018-04-17T04:36:22Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2018-04-17T04:36:53Z asarch: See you later 2018-04-17T04:36:56Z asarch: Have a nice day 2018-04-17T04:36:59Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-17T04:37:02Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T04:37:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:37:34Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:37:51Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:38:45Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:40:11Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T04:42:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:42:47Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:44:26Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:44:56Z loke: It's always so quiet here during ELS. 2018-04-17T04:45:03Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:46:14Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:46:14Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-17T04:46:14Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:48:26Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:48:54Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T04:52:22Z iqubic: What is ELS? 2018-04-17T04:52:41Z loke: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 2018-04-17T04:52:45Z atdmpz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T04:52:52Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:56:49Z iqubic: Is that happening now? 2018-04-17T04:56:56Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T04:57:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:57:52Z katco[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T04:59:40Z iqubic: Actually, better question: Are the talks being recorded/livestreamed or posted to youtube or something? 2018-04-17T05:00:22Z loke: iqubic: Not livestreamed 2018-04-17T05:00:28Z loke: They might be posted later. I'm not sure. 2018-04-17T05:00:53Z loke: iqubic: It is happening now. I wanted to go, but no time and it was too much of a hassle to travel. 2018-04-17T05:01:09Z loke: I'd have to fly to london (14+ hours) and then to gibgraltar 2018-04-17T05:01:23Z iqubic: I'm in Seattle, WA, USA, so I can't really go/ 2018-04-17T05:01:24Z loke: or maybe to Frankfurt or something 2018-04-17T05:01:37Z loke: iqubic: Wny not? You're closer than me. 2018-04-17T05:02:27Z iqubic: I'm in High School, and have no disposable income, and my parents wouldn't support this. 2018-04-17T05:02:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:02:42Z iqubic: And I'm not on break. 2018-04-17T05:02:43Z loke: iqubic: You sure? It' snot that expensive. 2018-04-17T05:03:01Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:03:14Z loke: A lot of people in the US (i.e. your parents) seem to think that just because you're travelling outside the US, it's somehow complicated, expensive and difficult. 2018-04-17T05:04:04Z pierpal: surely it's not free 2018-04-17T05:04:34Z iqubic: yeah, but I don't have the time. I'm not sure I can convice my parents that they should spend this money for me to go learn about an obscure programming language. 2018-04-17T05:04:51Z loke: I was talking to this guy in philadelphia or something, and he was shocked to learn that going to london was faster and easier than going to california 2018-04-17T05:05:12Z loke: iqubic: That's not the right way to phrase it though 2018-04-17T05:05:27Z iqubic: Are there any major companies/startups using CL, or some derivation thereof? 2018-04-17T05:05:46Z loke: Anyway, hopefully next year it'll be in a better location. If it's in, say, Berlin, it would be a lot easier to go to for everybody 2018-04-17T05:06:19Z loke: Well, the reason the location ios as obscure as it is is because there is a company doing Lisp work located there, and they're hoping to hire people :-) 2018-04-17T05:06:25Z loke: So they sponsore the event. 2018-04-17T05:06:27Z xristos joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:27Z xristos is now known as Guest23468 2018-04-17T05:06:43Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:43Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:43Z Jach[m]1 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:44Z theemacsshibe[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:44Z drunk_foxx[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:06:51Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:06:59Z iqubic: What company is this? 2018-04-17T05:07:30Z loke: I can't remember. 2018-04-17T05:07:31Z iqubic: I wish there were programming meetups in Seattle or somewhere close to me. 2018-04-17T05:08:23Z loke: iqubic: Well, I just rnadomly checked the cost for a flight from seatlly to berlin, return... and it's just over 1000 USD 2018-04-17T05:08:32Z loke: so it's not actually expensive to travel. 2018-04-17T05:08:56Z loke: I don't know why people in the US don't travel more. 2018-04-17T05:09:43Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T05:09:45Z loke: "seattle" even 2018-04-17T05:10:02Z iqubic: See, don't you have to add in the cost of a ticket, and a hotel? 2018-04-17T05:10:20Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-04-17T05:10:36Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:12:33Z loke: iqubic: Yeah, but that's not too mcuh 2018-04-17T05:12:52Z loke: I'm just saying that just because an event is in europe that it's difficult for you to attend. 2018-04-17T05:12:58Z loke: Keep that in mind for next year's event. 2018-04-17T05:13:26Z loke: I'm looking at going to a small town in Sweden for a two-day event in july 2018-04-17T05:13:42Z loke: That's be much more of a hassle :-) 2018-04-17T05:13:54Z loke: (have to fly to stockholm and rent a car and drive for 2+ hours) 2018-04-17T05:14:11Z doanyway left #lisp 2018-04-17T05:14:44Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T05:15:01Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:15:02Z iqubic: Yeah, I don't have a driver's license, so I'd be relying on taxis and other such things. 2018-04-17T05:16:00Z loke: iqubic: Well, in my case, a train would actually be faster :-) I'm just renting a car since I will meet up with a friend before the even and go on a mountain bike ride on some trails nearby. 2018-04-17T05:17:09Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-17T05:17:14Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:17:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:18:32Z jach[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:18:51Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:20:28Z mathZ left #lisp 2018-04-17T05:21:28Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:21:43Z fxdpnt joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:22:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:23:48Z eatonphil joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:24:54Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:28:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:32:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:33:45Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:36:53Z kumori[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:37:23Z plll[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:37:31Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:37:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:38:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:39:52Z blisp[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:41:10Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:41:14Z SAL9000 is now known as Guest53448 2018-04-17T05:41:21Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:41:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:42:25Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:43:26Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:43:28Z mhitchman[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:43:37Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:44:57Z lyosha[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:45:43Z cryptomarauder joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:46:05Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:46:26Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:47:12Z dirb joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:48:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:48:45Z kammd[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:48:49Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-17T05:53:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T05:55:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-17T05:56:13Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T05:56:28Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T05:58:51Z jach[m]: iqubic: have you been to the Seajure meetup? I'd bet there's some common lisp people there too.. there was also a Lisp group but they haven't had a meetup since december. 2018-04-17T05:59:15Z iqubic: I haven't been to the Seajure meeting. 2018-04-17T06:08:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:13:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:13:34Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:16:33Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T06:16:37Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:18:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:19:57Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:20:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T06:21:27Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-17T06:22:39Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T06:23:03Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:23:15Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T06:23:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:23:30Z nbhauke joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:23:49Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:25:55Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:28:50Z fxdpnt quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-17T06:28:55Z megalography left #lisp 2018-04-17T06:29:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:32:16Z rippa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:32:24Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:32:32Z schweers` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:33:59Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:35:02Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:35:43Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:39:21Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:44:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:47:56Z nbhauke quit (Quit: nbhauke) 2018-04-17T06:48:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:49:30Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:50:56Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T06:51:08Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T06:53:30Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T06:53:56Z atdmpz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T06:55:38Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:59:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2018-04-17T06:59:47Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:00:13Z mathZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T07:01:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:02:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:03:50Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:04:42Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:06:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:09:19Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T07:12:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:17:05Z Firedancer_ is now known as Firedancer 2018-04-17T07:18:10Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:21:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:21:24Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:22:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:23:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:24:51Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:26:40Z red joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:27:03Z red is now known as Guest74201 2018-04-17T07:34:24Z bakkal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:36:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:36:25Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:40:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:42:06Z Guest74201: I'm curious if anyone uses alternatives to common CL symbols. e.g. using 'fn' instead of 'lambda', or a version of defun that takes extra lambda arguments for types 2018-04-17T07:42:07Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:44:24Z iqubic: Why would we use these things when they are not standard things. 2018-04-17T07:44:30Z iqubic: ??? 2018-04-17T07:49:18Z loke: Guest74201: What would the purpose of that be? 2018-04-17T07:50:37Z Guest74201: For lambda, fn is shorter, and you will type it thousands of times. 2018-04-17T07:50:51Z Guest74201: This is the reason Arc uses fn. 2018-04-17T07:52:08Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T07:52:12Z Guest74201: For defun, if typechecks are common in a code base, instead of always writing (defun (x y) (declare (type number x) (type string y) ...), you could write something like (defun (x number y string &return string) ...) 2018-04-17T07:54:34Z Shinmera: A large reason is because we want the code to be readable and understandable for other people 2018-04-17T07:54:43Z Shinmera: but if you don't care about that you're of course free to do whatever you like 2018-04-17T07:55:15Z Shinmera: Typing a few characters more is hardly going to hamper productivity. 2018-04-17T07:56:10Z Shinmera: Or, I should say, if your productivity is hampered by how much you have to type then you either don't type fast enough, or you don't spend enough time thinking instead of typing. 2018-04-17T07:57:26Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T07:57:51Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-17T07:58:08Z Guest74201: Paul Graham on fn vs. lambda: We're going to try not to include any onions in Arc. Everything is open to question. For example, in Arc, lambda is called fn. This idea appalled me at first, but it seemed like fn would be shorter and at least as expressive. What if I was just used to lambda? So, with a queasy sense of duty, I decided to try it. And after a few days I actually liked fn better. Now it seems clear to me that lambda is an 2018-04-17T07:58:28Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-17T07:58:42Z Shinmera: Your message cuts off and it also doesn't matter, because CL is not Arc. 2018-04-17T07:59:05Z Guest74201: I agree it's not a huge deal. I'm just working on a little DSL and it got me thinking about the builtin symbols. 2018-04-17T07:59:49Z LdBeth: Sup 2018-04-17T07:59:57Z Shinmera: ELS 2018-04-17T08:00:06Z Guest74201: I'm just curious if there are such shorthand libraries that have caught on in the last 7 years or so. 2018-04-17T08:00:41Z Shinmera: There's probably quite a few libraries or projects that use such shorthands, but nothing widespread for the reasons I've outlined. 2018-04-17T08:01:51Z Guest74201: gotcha 2018-04-17T08:04:40Z cess11_: I've heard some code editors allow clever code completion technologies. Perhaps that would be an alternative. 2018-04-17T08:04:43Z LdBeth: Job security 2018-04-17T08:05:35Z LdBeth: Opusmodus is fabulous 2018-04-17T08:07:16Z jack_rabbit: I would prefer fn to lambda, but I wouldn't ever create such an alias, to avoid obfuscating the code. 2018-04-17T08:07:33Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:07:40Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:09:13Z ecraven: just use λ 2018-04-17T08:09:29Z ecraven: even shorter than fn, and your editor can show it instead of "lambda", no need to change the source 2018-04-17T08:09:47Z LdBeth: CL21 provides some fancy syntax sugars from Clojure 2018-04-17T08:10:02Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-17T08:10:18Z antoszka: hasn't cl21 become pretty much abandonware? 2018-04-17T08:10:29Z LdBeth: such as ^(+ % 1) for (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 2018-04-17T08:10:33Z Shinmera: antoszka: yes 2018-04-17T08:10:41Z antoszka: Shinmera: it's a bit of a pity IMO 2018-04-17T08:10:45Z Shinmera: and even if it hadn't I wouldn't advise using it 2018-04-17T08:11:03Z antoszka: I quite liked it as a "common proposal" 2018-04-17T08:11:03Z Shinmera: for one, I would not want to debug or contribute to a library written in CL21 2018-04-17T08:12:06Z LdBeth: One advantage of CL is merely no softwares would be fully obsoleted 2018-04-17T08:13:02Z LdBeth: I don’t expect someone to debug my personal scripts 2018-04-17T08:13:05Z antoszka: Unless it uses non-ANSI implementation-specific stuff, towards which there may be no guarantees 2018-04-17T08:17:27Z Guest74201: if anyone has an idea for another name for "slot-value," ideas welcome. Most languages have x.y. (slot-value x 'y) is a bit much. (field x 'y) or (. x y). This is for my little language, not CL. 2018-04-17T08:17:50Z ecraven: ref 2018-04-17T08:18:04Z LdBeth: gg 2018-04-17T08:18:29Z Shinmera: Guest74201: That's what accessors are for 2018-04-17T08:19:19Z Guest74201: thanks ecraven 2018-04-17T08:19:49Z ecraven: Guest74201: but as Shinmera said, that should only be used for reflection, not for normal access, that's what accessors are for 2018-04-17T08:20:03Z LdBeth: Is there any way to alias symbols like how Emacs Lisp’s defalias does? 2018-04-17T08:21:11Z Shinmera: I don't understand the purpose of defalias 2018-04-17T08:21:30Z Shinmera: If you just want to copy the function definition to another symbol you can do (setf (fdefinition 'new) (fdefinition 'old)) 2018-04-17T08:22:16Z ecraven: Shinmera: the only situation where I imagine it makes sense is when the name changes, but you want to keep the old one around for some time 2018-04-17T08:23:25Z LdBeth: I would like to have the definition of new symbol changes corresponded to the old symbol 2018-04-17T08:23:50Z Shinmera: You can't do that. 2018-04-17T08:24:07Z Shinmera: Unless you write a macro that updates the new symbol in the same definition as the old one. 2018-04-17T08:24:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:24:56Z nbhauke joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:25:55Z LdBeth: I guess it’s due to language implementation 2018-04-17T08:26:10Z LdBeth: difference 2018-04-17T08:26:46Z Shinmera: I don't see the point in what you're trying to do either. 2018-04-17T08:29:03Z jack_rabbit: Is there a standard way to make an object "dumpable" ? 2018-04-17T08:29:40Z Shinmera: By dumpable do you mean writeable to a FASL? 2018-04-17T08:29:43Z Shinmera: as a literal 2018-04-17T08:29:53Z jack_rabbit: Yes. 2018-04-17T08:29:57Z Shinmera: clhs make-load-form 2018-04-17T08:29:57Z LdBeth: Maybe used to solve compatibility issue? 2018-04-17T08:29:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 2018-04-17T08:30:05Z jack_rabbit: Shinmera, thanks. 2018-04-17T08:31:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:33:02Z Shinmera: LdBeth: if you need to be compatible in a library I suggest just copying the fdefinition. 2018-04-17T08:33:31Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:33:55Z LdBeth: Shinmera: okay. 2018-04-17T08:33:58Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:35:51Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:36:10Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:38:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:39:10Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:39:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:40:27Z scymtym: for backward compatible API changes, it can be useful to keep the old function, make it call the new function, mention its deprecation in the documentation string and maybe use a compiler macro or an implementation-specific mechanism to issue compile-time warnings for uses of the old function 2018-04-17T08:42:17Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:43:03Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:44:02Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:45:28Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:48:50Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:53:02Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:53:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:54:37Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:55:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T08:57:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:57:33Z p_l: a small lambda is better than defalias 2018-04-17T08:58:04Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T08:58:27Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:03:23Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:04:42Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:09:21Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:14:21Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:14:56Z jack_rabbit: Has anyone dealt with trying to save an image after compiling a file, the compilation of which causes threads to be spawned? 2018-04-17T09:15:14Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:17:05Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:19:22Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:19:55Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:19:58Z loke: jack_rabbit: THreads created by compiling? 2018-04-17T09:20:04Z loke: Wow. That's... terrible. 2018-04-17T09:20:08Z JuanDaugherty: if they've terminated it shouldn't matter 2018-04-17T09:20:23Z JuanDaugherty: if they havent' you shouldn't be saving 2018-04-17T09:20:30Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to avoid it. It seems undesirable. 2018-04-17T09:21:22Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:21:25Z jack_rabbit: Basically, I've moved some computation to compile-time, but it involves the mcclim library, and it seems to launch CLX threads even if I'm not trying to start an application. 2018-04-17T09:22:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:23:14Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:24:26Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:25:48Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:27:12Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:28:08Z loke: jack_rabbit: You just waint until my new font renderer lands in McCLIM 2018-04-17T09:28:29Z jack_rabbit: loke, Yes, I'm really excited for that, actually. :) 2018-04-17T09:28:31Z loke: you'll be loading the freetype and harfbuzz libraries just by loading McCLIM :-) 2018-04-17T09:28:56Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:29:21Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:29:35Z jack_rabbit: Hmmm... It seems CLIM-INTERNALS:FIND-PORT is called when trying to read a bitmap, even though the result is unused. 2018-04-17T09:29:38Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:30:36Z loke: jack_rabbit: Here's a screenshot: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TgvfebcQnw3a3niz1 2018-04-17T09:31:16Z jack_rabbit: ohhhh that's sick. 2018-04-17T09:31:40Z loke: Somewhat better than before. 2018-04-17T09:32:00Z loke: I'm working on bidirectional support now so that you can mix arabic and english :-) 2018-04-17T09:32:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:32:10Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:33:32Z loke: jack_rabbit: Code here, in case you're brave enough to try: https://github.com/lokedhs/McCLIM/tree/freetype2 2018-04-17T09:33:43Z jack_rabbit: Aha! Of course. I can just pass :port nil, and it won't call FIND-PORT. 2018-04-17T09:33:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:34:03Z jack_rabbit: I shall do so forthhence! 2018-04-17T09:34:07Z jack_rabbit: posthaste! 2018-04-17T09:34:21Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:34:50Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:37:35Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:37:43Z jack_rabbit: loke, harfbuzz is a dep? 2018-04-17T09:39:27Z loke: jack_rabbit: Yes. 2018-04-17T09:39:36Z jack_rabbit: ok, had to grab the headers. 2018-04-17T09:39:44Z jack_rabbit: loke, lol. Well, it's doing something. 2018-04-17T09:39:52Z jack_rabbit: hangon, I'll do a screencap. 2018-04-17T09:39:54Z loke: In most distributions, Harfbuzz is compiled in together with freetype, but it's an explicit dependency since some distros don't do that. 2018-04-17T09:40:06Z loke: Yes. You need the headers. It's using CFFI-Grovel. 2018-04-17T09:42:34Z jack_rabbit: loke, https://imgur.com/a/N57iF 2018-04-17T09:42:41Z jack_rabbit: I'm getting weird greens and oranges. 2018-04-17T09:43:12Z loke: You might be using a font with poor hinting. 2018-04-17T09:43:15Z loke: Does it happen for all fonts? 2018-04-17T09:43:32Z jack_rabbit: Don't know, I'm using the default font. 2018-04-17T09:43:41Z jack_rabbit: Let me figure out how to change fonts. 2018-04-17T09:43:48Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:44:08Z loke: (clim:make-face "Family here" Facehere") 2018-04-17T09:44:24Z loke: Sorry 2018-04-17T09:44:25Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/McCLIM/tree/freetype2 2018-04-17T09:44:27Z loke: oops 2018-04-17T09:44:31Z loke: (clim:make-text-style "DejaVuSans" "Book" 20) 2018-04-17T09:44:35Z loke: That's an example 2018-04-17T09:44:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:45:21Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:45:39Z loke: You can also try (setq clim-freetype::*enable-autohint* t) 2018-04-17T09:46:16Z loke: (however, if you do that, you need to do it before starting any clim application the first time, since it caches the prerendered glyphs_ 2018-04-17T09:46:35Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:47:05Z jack_rabbit: ahh, dejavu is much better. 2018-04-17T09:47:16Z jack_rabbit: except for the asterisks. Let me try the autohint. 2018-04-17T09:47:36Z loke: Sone fonts are really terrible. I need to figure out the right fontconfig query to filter out the bad ones. 2018-04-17T09:48:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:48:52Z jack_rabbit: the autohint really helps. Should that be T by default? 2018-04-17T09:49:55Z loke: jack_rabbit: I haven't decided :-) 2018-04-17T09:50:05Z copec joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:50:34Z loke: I've noticed various results. Still something that requires research. 2018-04-17T09:50:49Z loke: I also need to improve the font fallback mechanism. 2018-04-17T09:50:57Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:51:36Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:52:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:52:58Z jack_rabbit: well really cool. 2018-04-17T09:53:19Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T09:53:34Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:53:36Z loke: Thanks. The whole purpose of this was actually to be able to render my maths equations in mt Maxima client. Talk about rabbit hole. 2018-04-17T09:53:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:55:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T09:56:05Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-17T09:57:01Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:02:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:02:33Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T10:02:46Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:05:26Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:05:27Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:05:50Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:08:05Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T10:08:31Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:08:48Z hutchi quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-17T10:11:34Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:13:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:14:00Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:15:17Z scymtym pictures a yak tumbling down a rabbit hole 2018-04-17T10:17:01Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:17:07Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-17T10:17:24Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:18:21Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:20:41Z loke: scymtym: Yeah, pretty much. 2018-04-17T10:22:02Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:23:46Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:27:03Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:27:16Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T10:27:55Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:28:16Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-17T10:28:35Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:32:00Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:32:02Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:32:33Z hutchi quit (Quit: hutchi) 2018-04-17T10:32:37Z mfiano: Guest74201: There is the defstar library for "defun with types", but note that it has a toxic GPLv3 license. 2018-04-17T10:33:40Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:34:48Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:36:46Z jackdaniel: quite judgamental phrasing ;) 2018-04-17T10:37:05Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:37:16Z jackdaniel: loke: nice progress :) 2018-04-17T10:37:58Z loke: jackdaniel: thanks :-) 2018-04-17T10:38:19Z loke: Kensanata had written a Bidi library for Emacs many years ago. I just ported it :-) 2018-04-17T10:38:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:39:05Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:39:54Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:42:07Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:43:00Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:45:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:45:59Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-17T10:47:38Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:48:44Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:50:18Z doesthiswork quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2018-04-17T10:51:13Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:51:42Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:51:51Z ebrasca: mfiano: GPLv3 is not toxic 2018-04-17T10:52:05Z ebrasca: mfiano: GPLv3 is good 2018-04-17T10:52:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: GPL doesn't go far enough 2018-04-17T10:53:14Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:54:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: Anyone who turns a profit on someone else's code should have to pay them for doing the work for them. 2018-04-17T10:54:15Z TMA: ebrasca: what is good depends on your goals 2018-04-17T10:55:46Z ebrasca: TMA: Why is gpl toxic? 2018-04-17T10:56:02Z ebrasca: There is good software with GPLv3 2018-04-17T10:56:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T10:58:08Z mfiano: GPLv3 is not compatible with a vast array of libraries. defstar would probably get a bit more attention and use if it had a more forgiving license. 2018-04-17T10:58:44Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T10:58:46Z jackdaniel: but calling it toxic may be considered a harsh opinion 2018-04-17T10:58:57Z mfiano: Sorry to start a war. It isn't compatible with the code I write, or most of its transitive dependencies, is all I meant. 2018-04-17T10:59:22Z jackdaniel: nobody calls java toxic for instance despite lawsuits and such 2018-04-17T10:59:46Z TMA: ebrasca: mfiano said it concisely 2018-04-17T11:00:26Z jackdaniel: suro, getting back to els :) 2018-04-17T11:01:07Z loke: jackdaniel: Havbe fun! 2018-04-17T11:01:38Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:01:51Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:02:15Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:02:41Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:03:31Z ebrasca: mfiano: Ok 2018-04-17T11:04:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:04:19Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:06:07Z Xlet42X joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:07:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:07:39Z TMA: ebrasca: I have written several pieces of GPL'd software. That was C/C++ though. On the other hand GPL'd lisp code is a strange beast. There is still that interpretation that you cannot run it on a non-gpl implementation (because then you are combining it). LLGPL does not help, it has its own problems. 2018-04-17T11:08:31Z doesthiswork quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2018-04-17T11:08:40Z Shinmera: Ah, just what I needed to distract myself from my trainwreck of a talk: license debate 2018-04-17T11:09:14Z TMA: ebrasca: copyright is broken in general, copyright as applied to software even more so. 2018-04-17T11:09:48Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:10:22Z Xlet42X quit (Quit: Xlet42X) 2018-04-17T11:11:00Z ebrasca: I use MIT for software for mezzano and GPL for other. 2018-04-17T11:11:26Z ebrasca: TMA: What license do you recomend for lisp software? 2018-04-17T11:12:37Z ebrasca: Some people recomended me GPL in #fsf , #gnu and #parabola 2018-04-17T11:12:58Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:13:53Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:14:05Z drunk_foxx[m]: > TMA: What license do you recomend for lisp software? 2018-04-17T11:14:06Z drunk_foxx[m]: LLGPL - Lisp Lesser GPL 2018-04-17T11:14:07Z drunk_foxx[m]: Just giving an idea 2018-04-17T11:14:21Z theemacsshibe[m]: I suggest the Cooperative Software License 2018-04-17T11:14:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: A friend and I made it based on the Peer Production License, which is an arty license for art people based on CC BY NC SA. Ours has software specific terms too. 2018-04-17T11:15:14Z TMA: ebrasca: there is no silver bullet. asking for a license recomendation in #fsf and #gnu is like asking an insurance salesman whether you should be insured 2018-04-17T11:15:15Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:15:27Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:17:33Z ghard joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:18:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: Here is our license: https://gitlab.com/Theemacsshibe/nettle-lisp/blob/master/LICENSE 2018-04-17T11:18:32Z TMA: ebrasca: it is difficult because of many reasons, the international aspects of copyright among them 2018-04-17T11:18:35Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:18:47Z phoe: How can I tell Emacs to indent my CL code the way CCL code is indented? 2018-04-17T11:18:59Z phoe: For instance, IF forms indented by 2 spaces instead of 4. 2018-04-17T11:20:33Z TMA: ebrasca: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/7fdm0r/common_lisp_licensing_situation_for_distributing/ http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/75/146 2018-04-17T11:21:01Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:21:04Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Sabra did a survey on Quicklisp libraries and evaluated the frequency of licenses. https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/quicklisp-library-trivia 2018-04-17T11:21:05Z mfiano: phoe: By slapping SLIME around a bit, or using Shinmera's trivial-indent 2018-04-17T11:21:25Z Shinmera: MIT is by far the most frequent. 2018-04-17T11:21:26Z mfiano: Which I wish supported Sly 2018-04-17T11:21:35Z Shinmera: mfiano: It's coming in the next release 2018-04-17T11:21:39Z mfiano: Yay 2018-04-17T11:22:30Z phoe: mfiano: I remember that there was some kind of switch that did that thing, I just can't find it at the moment 2018-04-17T11:22:33Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-17T11:22:49Z larme joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:23:08Z Shinmera: phoe: slime-indentation contrib is needed for trivial-indent to work 2018-04-17T11:24:06Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:26:38Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:26:40Z TMA: theemacsshibe[m]: oy, I am reading the first paragraph and I am already lost, because it necessitates to pull in yet another whole branch of law (the contract law) 2018-04-17T11:26:43Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:28:24Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks. 2018-04-17T11:29:44Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:32:10Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:34:05Z mfiano: Does the standard have a type definition for "string designator" or should I just define my own? 2018-04-17T11:35:05Z TMA: theemacsshibe[m]: also the title is "COOPERATIVE SOFTWARE LICENSE" but the text refers to "COPYFARLEFT PUBLIC LICENSE" ; the aforementioned notwithstanding and incomprehensibility irregardless wherefore as ammended forthwith the contents thereof including but not limited to any and all words and phrases (as defined), articles, conventions and covenants is in whole and in parts almost but not quite entirely unlike huh? 2018-04-17T11:35:26Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:36:11Z hutchi joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:36:50Z theemacsshibe[m]: Umm 2018-04-17T11:37:17Z phoe: mfiano: alexandria:string-designator 2018-04-17T11:37:29Z mfiano: Thanks 2018-04-17T11:37:31Z phoe: np 2018-04-17T11:37:45Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:38:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: It's describing itself 2018-04-17T11:38:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: It says this 2018-04-17T11:38:56Z TMA: ebrasca: do not use a license you feel you need to have explained by a lawyer in order to understand. 2018-04-17T11:39:30Z mfiano: Do not use a license that hasn't been tested in a court. 2018-04-17T11:39:34Z TMA: ebrasca: the chances are it says something completely different than you think. 2018-04-17T11:40:26Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:41:14Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:43:13Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:43:46Z edgar-rft: Hmm, I'm just asking myself if my driver's license is GPL compatible... 2018-04-17T11:44:11Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-17T11:44:30Z TMA: legal documents are similar to obfuscated code. a comma in a single sentence on page four means that the fourth paragraph on page 13 interact with the second sentence of the first paragraph of page 2 in a manner that is in complete opposition to the state without that comma present 2018-04-17T11:46:21Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:46:54Z antoszka: :) 2018-04-17T11:48:47Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:48:50Z TMA: one does not read legal documents. one studies them. or more exactly, one reverse engineers them 2018-04-17T11:50:43Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-17T11:51:03Z TMA: which is why I hate every single web page with its own terms and conditions. [the same applies to any service provider's terms and their changes - bank, telco, ...] 2018-04-17T11:51:52Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:53:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:54:14Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T11:57:21Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T11:59:48Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:00:28Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T12:00:57Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:03:14Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:05:05Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:05:17Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:08:11Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:08:18Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:10:51Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:12:20Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:13:28Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T12:14:05Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:15:21Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:16:19Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:16:40Z dcluna joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:17:37Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:18:06Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:18:26Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:19:02Z dcluna_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:19:03Z msb joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:19:27Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:20:20Z mfiano: What issues would I have by setting the greek small letter lambda to be a macro character for cl:lambda in the default readtable? 2018-04-17T12:21:02Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:22:08Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:22:15Z edgar-rft: your code might no work on non-unicode implementations 2018-04-17T12:24:11Z loke: edgar-rft: Arguably, there are no relevant non-Unicode implementations :-) 2018-04-17T12:24:22Z loke: That said, it seems like a somewhat pointless change. 2018-04-17T12:25:05Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:25:27Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:25:29Z edgar-rft: mfiano asked "would" and I answered "might" :-) 2018-04-17T12:26:04Z JuanDaugherty: but bling 2018-04-17T12:27:16Z JuanDaugherty: pointless is next to golden for ur bling 2018-04-17T12:27:47Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:30:55Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T12:30:58Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:33:19Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:35:46Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-17T12:36:35Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:37:06Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:37:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:40:04Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:41:38Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:41:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:43:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:46:39Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:47:24Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:47:37Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:48:54Z ebrasca: I think licenses are hard to understand. 2018-04-17T12:51:08Z ebrasca: Thanks for help. 2018-04-17T12:51:39Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:52:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:53:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:56:38Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T12:56:40Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-17T12:57:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:58:30Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T12:59:13Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:01:40Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:03:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:04:09Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-17T13:04:24Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:05:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:05:59Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-17T13:06:38Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:07:33Z siraben` joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:07:35Z siraben` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T13:08:10Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T13:09:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:11:41Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:12:07Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:13:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:14:36Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:15:44Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:17:16Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:17:49Z nbhauke quit (Quit: nbhauke) 2018-04-17T13:18:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:19:10Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:20:41Z ghard: mfiano: why not just use M-x prettify-symbols-mode in emacs? 2018-04-17T13:20:54Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-04-17T13:20:56Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:21:31Z mfiano: ghard: Because it disobeys style conventions by changing the width of a symbol and thus potentially having more columns than preferred. 2018-04-17T13:21:51Z ghard: I see 2018-04-17T13:22:25Z Chream joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:22:46Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:22:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:23:06Z mfiano: I dislike editor tricks that separate the data's model from its view. Orgmode is another problem with it's indent mode and visual tricks. 2018-04-17T13:23:18Z mfiano: its* 2018-04-17T13:25:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:25:05Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:26:08Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:28:22Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:29:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:30:16Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:31:41Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:33:51Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:37:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:39:28Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:41:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:42:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:43:17Z anaumov quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:43:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:44:34Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:45:00Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:47:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:49:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:50:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:50:32Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:51:09Z hutchi quit (Quit: bye!) 2018-04-17T13:53:46Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:53:55Z python47` joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:54:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:54:58Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T13:56:06Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:57:40Z python47` left #lisp 2018-04-17T13:57:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T13:59:30Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:01:37Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T14:01:44Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:02:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:03:54Z Chream quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:04:43Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:05:52Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:06:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:07:15Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:07:31Z araujo joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:07:31Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2018-04-17T14:07:32Z araujo joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:08:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:10:05Z SenasOzys_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:10:13Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:10:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:10:59Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:11:38Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:11:38Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:11:50Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:11:59Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:12:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:12:40Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:12:50Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:12:56Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:14:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:14:45Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:14:59Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:15:51Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:16:24Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:18:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:18:35Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:21:20Z anaumov joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:21:21Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T14:21:22Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:21:58Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:22:02Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:24:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:25:33Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:25:48Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:27:05Z anaumov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:27:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:27:32Z loke: Here's a neat new development. AUtomatic RTL detection: 2018-04-17T14:27:34Z loke: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Bj2doS1ZygSH61Nt1 2018-04-17T14:27:42Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:29:56Z smokeink: nice. Do IME's in CLIM work already ? 2018-04-17T14:30:25Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:30:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:31:01Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-17T14:31:21Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:31:45Z loke: smokeink: No. 2018-04-17T14:31:52Z loke: Is it not part of what I am doing. 2018-04-17T14:32:06Z loke: I haven't paid attention to it since I don't need it myself. 2018-04-17T14:32:36Z Shinmera: Wish I could use freetype in my engine, but unfortunately it pulls in too deep a dependency tree. 2018-04-17T14:32:46Z loke: My integrating the ibus stuff shouldn't be overly difficult. 2018-04-17T14:32:59Z loke: Shinmera: which engine is that? 2018-04-17T14:33:04Z Shinmera: Trial. 2018-04-17T14:33:11Z Shinmera: Game engine project thingy. 2018-04-17T14:33:53Z Shinmera: I do have a font rendering library that I wrote myself based on stb_truetype, but it has some, uh, things left to be desired 2018-04-17T14:35:25Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T14:35:26Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:35:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:36:57Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:38:14Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:38:17Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:40:17Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:40:24Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:40:27Z loke: smokeink: Are you willing to implement ibus support? 2018-04-17T14:42:00Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:42:36Z flazh joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:42:46Z smokeink: I am willing but I don't think I am able to do it, yet. As soon as I'll have some free time to dedicate to clim or to other such lisp projects, I'll do it happily 2018-04-17T14:43:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:44:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-17T14:45:55Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:47:09Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:49:14Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:50:17Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:50:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:51:43Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:54:12Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T14:54:54Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:55:03Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:55:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:55:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:57:16Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:57:41Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:58:08Z kark quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T14:58:11Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-17T14:59:31Z jjkola_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:00:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T15:00:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:00:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:01:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:01:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:01:27Z jjkola quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:02:15Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:04:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T15:05:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:05:51Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:05:52Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:06:56Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:07:14Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:07:55Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:08:09Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:08:09Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2018-04-17T15:09:37Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T15:11:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:12:16Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:12:19Z katco joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:12:22Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:15:23Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:15:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:18:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:22:01Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:22:16Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-17T15:23:26Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:26:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:27:53Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-17T15:30:11Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-17T15:36:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:36:23Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:39:14Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:39:50Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:40:20Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2018-04-17T15:40:51Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:42:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:47:08Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:50:09Z atdmpz quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-17T15:50:23Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:52:10Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T15:53:56Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:54:10Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:54:24Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:57:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T15:57:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T15:58:54Z clintm joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:00:45Z clintm: Did I just forget how to use parenscript or was there something changed in the past month or so that's up on QL now? (ps:ps (@ a (b) c)) -> "at(a, b(), c);" 2018-04-17T16:02:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-17T16:02:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:03:12Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T16:08:47Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:08:59Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:11:44Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:11:45Z SenasOzys_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T16:18:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:18:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:19:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:21:59Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-17T16:22:32Z SenasOzys__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T16:22:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T16:23:22Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:24:14Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-17T16:24:54Z clintm: huh. 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home!) 2018-04-17T20:01:03Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:02:08Z drunk_foxx[m]: Are there any good places to practice using common lisp except books and websites with some usual (mostly stupid) excercises? Like, libraries that may need routine work, which can be handled by a person who has just started Lisp a couple of months ago or something like that? Any active projects to work on? 2018-04-17T20:02:58Z pmetzger: drunk_foxx[m]: There probably are a bunch of such things, but you may have to learn a bit more about the community to find them. 2018-04-17T20:03:06Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-17T20:03:40Z Shinmera: A lot of libraries are lacking in documentation and tests 2018-04-17T20:03:59Z Shinmera: I'm sure people would welcome if someone added that for them 2018-04-17T20:05:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:05:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:05:37Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:05:52Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:06:22Z azimut quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-17T20:06:27Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:07:09Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:07:10Z drunk_foxx[m]: That's quite a reasonable point 2018-04-17T20:07:54Z drunk_foxx[m]: I will see if I can elaborate on that 2018-04-17T20:09:03Z Shinmera: The majority of my libraries are lacking in tests for instance. 2018-04-17T20:09:29Z Shinmera: Adding a test suite for Plump would be good since that's something people actually do use. 2018-04-17T20:10:06Z bakkal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T20:10:09Z verisimilitude: Do you believe every library needs tests? 2018-04-17T20:10:51Z Shinmera: I don't think anything "needs" tests. It's often good to have them, though. 2018-04-17T20:12:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:12:49Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:14:43Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:14:45Z pmetzger: I disagree. I think anything people use and plan to use for more than a trivial amount of time needs tests. Otherwise fixing bugs and refactoring code is too dangerous and unpleasant. 2018-04-17T20:15:26Z verisimilitude: What about code that doesn't need to be changed? 2018-04-17T20:15:34Z pmetzger: Earlier today I merged a bunch of changes from someone else's branch of some code I've been hacking on into mine and pushed out the merge, and the only reason it worked right was there was a test suite I could run to shake out any issues. 2018-04-17T20:15:56Z pmetzger: Any code that never needs to be changed ever again doesn't need tests. When you find me such code, let me know. :) 2018-04-17T20:16:10Z pmetzger: By definition such code must be perfectly bug free. :) 2018-04-17T20:16:25Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-17T20:17:32Z drunk_foxx[m]: Even if it is bug free, there may exist plenty of reasons fot changing the code in the future 2018-04-17T20:19:16Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, even if it has bugs it doesn't necessarily mean they must be fixed 2018-04-17T20:19:21Z jackdaniel: not all bugs are critical 2018-04-17T20:20:10Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-17T20:22:26Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T20:26:00Z verisimilitude: Look at any working implementation of basic mathematical functions, pmetzger. 2018-04-17T20:26:34Z verisimilitude: Alternatively, look at an implementation of IDENTITY. 2018-04-17T20:27:01Z verisimilitude: Now, it's clear that code can and is perfectly bug free or else we wouldn't be able to do much of anything. 2018-04-17T20:27:07Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: Famously, Xavier Leroy had the implementation of basic math functions in OCaml broken for the first six months it was in use. Tests would have caught that. 2018-04-17T20:27:25Z pmetzger: If you don't believe you need such things, that is up to you. 2018-04-17T20:27:27Z Shinmera: *the right tests would have caught that 2018-04-17T20:27:36Z pmetzger: Shinmera: naturally. 2018-04-17T20:28:31Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:28:31Z Shinmera: writing useful tests is a lot of effort. Effort and time I usually don't have to offer. 2018-04-17T20:28:39Z pmetzger: Anyway, these days I prefer for things to be more than simply tested but actually formally verified, but tests are at least required. I fire programmers who don't want to put tests in their code and who don't want to document their code. OTOH, one doesn't need to operate to please _me_ unless you work for me. 2018-04-17T20:28:51Z verisimilitude: So, do you believe you can write tests perfectly, pmetzger? 2018-04-17T20:28:59Z verisimilitude: It always boils down to a place where mistakes can be made. 2018-04-17T20:29:01Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:29:09Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: Imperfect tests written well beat non-existent tests. 2018-04-17T20:29:19Z verisimilitude: I'd be inclined to disagree. 2018-04-17T20:30:07Z verisimilitude: I'm also inclined to believe the way tests are done nowadays is a fad, like so many other things in programming nowadays. 2018-04-17T20:30:31Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: But again, you don't need to do as I suggest. That said, I fire people for refusing, and won't collaborate with people who refuse to. I have no tolerance for cowboys. But your milage may vary. Live as you wish, not to please me. 2018-04-17T20:32:05Z fouric: is someone really a "cowboy" if they would rather not write tests at all than write flawed tests 2018-04-17T20:32:24Z pmetzger: It's a silly dichotomy because you can write reasonable tests. 2018-04-17T20:32:35Z pmetzger: And all tests will also be buggy (except if you do formal verification). 2018-04-17T20:32:41Z Aequus: Write tests for the tests! 2018-04-17T20:32:47Z jackdaniel: I know it as a fact that maintaining test suite pays off on fewer regressions 2018-04-17T20:33:19Z pmetzger: TDD has you test the tests by first running the test without having the feature implemented. It's crude but works. 2018-04-17T20:33:25Z jackdaniel: invalid tests happen sometimes and they waste time, but in general it pays off well 2018-04-17T20:33:31Z fouric nods 2018-04-17T20:33:31Z pmetzger: +1 2018-04-17T20:34:04Z pmetzger: it gives you such pleasant agility. you aren't scared to make big changes any more because you can check if your changes worked. 2018-04-17T20:34:25Z verisimilitude: You can also just write reasonable code to begin with. 2018-04-17T20:34:53Z jackdaniel: if you write unreasonable code tests won't help anyway ,) 2018-04-17T20:35:58Z drunk_foxx[m]: > Anyway, these days I prefer for things to be more than simply tested but actually formally verified, but tests are at least required. I fire programmers who don't want to put tests in their code and who don't want to document their code. 2018-04-17T20:35:59Z drunk_foxx[m]: Somewhat related to the discussion: what do you think about literate programming compared to the standard process of documenting/commenting the code? 2018-04-17T20:36:03Z pmetzger: Anyone who thinks they will always write the correct code the first time out isn't to be trusted. 2018-04-17T20:36:34Z pmetzger: Literate programming is really great for manuals and teaching. It seems to not work for writing real software though. 2018-04-17T20:36:43Z Shinmera: drunk_foxx[m]: I think it sucks, but that's just me. 2018-04-17T20:36:46Z drunk_foxx[m]: I've recently found this topic somewhat controversial in the lisp community 2018-04-17T20:36:49Z pmetzger: Knuth did well with it for writing TeX but it doesn't seem to work really well in practice. 2018-04-17T20:37:05Z pmetzger: That said, solid comments are also useful, but one needs to know what one is commenting. 2018-04-17T20:37:09Z pmetzger: And why. 2018-04-17T20:37:28Z pmetzger: I have seen amazing examples of the use of literate programming for creating textbooks and manuals though. 2018-04-17T20:37:40Z pmetzger: like "Software Foundations" is 100% written as literate Coq code. 2018-04-17T20:37:45Z pmetzger: It's very cool. 2018-04-17T20:37:58Z zbir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:38:27Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:39:01Z verisimilitude: I always write documentation strings, drunk_foxx[m], which I believe is roughly halfway to full literate programming. 2018-04-17T20:39:16Z Shinmera: docstrings are orthogonal to literate programming 2018-04-17T20:39:27Z verisimilitude: Lisp is also very flexible with ordering, which helps. 2018-04-17T20:39:48Z pmetzger: I agree. Docstrings are documentation for users of an interface, not documentation of code itself. 2018-04-17T20:39:49Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:39:56Z verisimilitude: I'm inclined to believe the interactivity of Lisp trumps literate programming. 2018-04-17T20:40:13Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: I don't see what those two have to do with each other at all. 2018-04-17T20:40:28Z Shinmera: pmetzger: It's not just that, it's that literate programming is a description of how to organise documentation whereas docstrings are a way of attaching documentation to definitions. 2018-04-17T20:40:43Z Shinmera: They're separate concepts. 2018-04-17T20:40:44Z verisimilitude: So, literate programming is effectively preparing to make the program as if a book. 2018-04-17T20:40:47Z pmetzger: Shinmera: That's much of what I meant. I agree. 2018-04-17T20:40:53Z jackdaniel: actually docstrings are merely a reminders what the function does 2018-04-17T20:40:53Z verisimilitude: With Lisp, you can simply load the program and explore it that way. 2018-04-17T20:41:01Z jackdaniel: I find it hard to agree that they are a documentation 2018-04-17T20:41:10Z jackdaniel: s/a/the/ 2018-04-17T20:41:27Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-17T20:41:55Z verisimilitude: Greater documentation, such as the reason for the overall structure of the system, isn't encompassed by this, however. 2018-04-17T20:42:05Z pmetzger: jackdaniel: A real manual is better, but these days the equivalent of docstrings in other languages (like javadoc and the like) are often all you get. :( 2018-04-17T20:42:08Z verisimilitude: I prefer to separate this information from the rest of the program, though. 2018-04-17T20:42:39Z jasom: jackdaniel: docstrings are just strings; you could put an entire man page in a doc string, and it would be API documentation. You could put the text for the wikipedia page for a mongoose, and it's not documentation. 2018-04-17T20:42:45Z drunk_foxx[m]: In my humble opinion, it's quite essential what the concept of literate programming whas inspired by - Knuth was a user of such languages like Pascal, Java, C and C++, and they lack in readability a lot, unlike Lisp with its AST structure, for instance; that basically means LP is much less useful for Lispers just due to the features of the language itself 2018-04-17T20:43:07Z pmetzger: Knuth never used Java or C++ to my knowledge. They come after his time. 2018-04-17T20:43:09Z drunk_foxx[m]: However I may be too biased about that 2018-04-17T20:43:15Z Shinmera: drunk_foxx[m]: Nah 2018-04-17T20:43:15Z pmetzger: I don't know if he ever was a real C user. 2018-04-17T20:43:44Z pmetzger: And you can write unreadable code in any language, including Lisp. 2018-04-17T20:43:48Z jackdaniel: jasom: sure, but are we talking about theoretical possibilities or what people usually mean by doscstrings? 2018-04-17T20:43:51Z jasom: fwiw, Here's an example of what CWEB looks like (a C literate programming tool) https://www.imperialviolet.org/binary/critbit.pdf 2018-04-17T20:43:59Z pmetzger: CWEB wasn't built by knuth. 2018-04-17T20:44:04Z Shinmera: I hate literate programming just as much as docstrings next to the definitions. It's distracting me from the code. Put the documentation elsewhere. 2018-04-17T20:44:06Z jackdaniel: pmetzger: agreed, but that doesn't make them documentation 2018-04-17T20:44:18Z verisimilitude: That's what I was getting at, yes, drunk_foxx[m]. 2018-04-17T20:44:55Z verisimilitude: It seems suited to static languages. 2018-04-17T20:45:48Z drunk_foxx[m]: > CWEB wasn't built by knuth. 2018-04-17T20:45:48Z drunk_foxx[m]: Wikipedia disagrees on that, but I didn't dive into much detail about the history of CWEB, so not sure 2018-04-17T20:46:05Z pmetzger: I like having docstrings in code. Before such things existed, comments before functions explaining their interfaces were common. They're still common in other languages. 2018-04-17T20:46:33Z pmetzger: WEB and TANGLE were built by Knuth. TeX was ported to C after TeX's initial completion. 2018-04-17T20:46:48Z drunk_foxx[m]: > And you can write unreadable code in any language, including Lisp. 2018-04-17T20:46:49Z drunk_foxx[m]: That's undoubtable, I just think some are more "naturally readable" than others. Again, biased 2018-04-17T20:46:51Z pmetzger: Silvio Levy was the CWEB guy (I think.) 2018-04-17T20:47:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:47:57Z verisimilitude: It makes me think of how C programmers go ``gee wiz'' with their grep and their lint and their memory leak detectors, where all of that is terrible and also effectively useless with a decent programming language. 2018-04-17T20:48:05Z jasom: pmetzger: the question Shinmera is raising (I think) isn't docstrings v. no docstrings, but docstrings next to the function definition vs. docstrings elsewhere. Without some way of attaching comments to a function, you must put them in the source adjacent to the function. With a lisp system, you can query the function's documentation through your IDE. 2018-04-17T20:48:15Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-17T20:48:27Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T20:48:34Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-17T20:49:11Z Shinmera: Yes. I put the docstrings in a separate file because I hate lots of vertical space that's spent on stuff other than code. 2018-04-17T20:49:21Z jasom: verisimilitude: linting tools are useful in most programming language; they are particularly useful in untyped language like lisp (style warnings are a type of linter, for example). 2018-04-17T20:49:26Z pmetzger: You can always manipulate docstrings in lisp away from the definition, but I think it's bad style. While reading the code you want to read the same information. 2018-04-17T20:49:45Z verisimilitude: I mean the braindead UNIX lint, jasom. 2018-04-17T20:50:29Z pmetzger: C and Lisp are at different parts of the stack. The fact that even (say) SBCL has C code in the implementation kind of tells you something there. 2018-04-17T20:50:33Z verisimilitude: Something else that separates a Lisp style warning and UNIX lint is how the system already has the code; it doesn't need to parse the code separately. 2018-04-17T20:51:00Z verisimilitude: This entirely eliminates idiocy like C++ syntax being understood differently by different compilers, because it only has to be understood once and then disregarded. 2018-04-17T20:51:16Z pmetzger: C is, as it happens, pretty bad at what it does, but part of that was what was possible in 1970 vs what you can do now (see Rust for example.) 2018-04-17T20:51:36Z verisimilitude: So, you've never read The UNIX-HATERS Handbook, have you? 2018-04-17T20:51:51Z verisimilitude: UNIX was shit in the 1970s and it's still shit. 2018-04-17T20:52:08Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: if you say so. 2018-04-17T20:52:50Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: I think I read the Unix Haters Handbook stuff before it was published (it mostly came from posts to a mailing list) but I haven't looked at it since. A lot of it was bitter comments from random ITS types etc. 2018-04-17T20:53:20Z verisimilitude: Rust is just the modern effeminate man's Ada. 2018-04-17T20:54:10Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: so you think there's something wrong with being effeminate? are you a homophobe? 2018-04-17T20:54:12Z verisimilitude: APL, Lisp, and many other advanced languages were all invented before C. 2018-04-17T20:54:31Z verisimilitude: I was making a joke about the Rust userbase. 2018-04-17T20:54:42Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: by calling them homosexuals, yes. 2018-04-17T20:54:50Z pmetzger: which implies there's something wrong with homosexuality. 2018-04-17T20:54:52Z verisimilitude: Of course, yes. 2018-04-17T20:55:10Z verisimilitude: Well, it's not related much to Lisp, but yes, I do. 2018-04-17T20:55:36Z pmetzger: verisimilitude: you do get that if you said that IRL it might not be physically safe for you, yes? 2018-04-17T20:55:40Z pmetzger: just noting. 2018-04-17T20:55:48Z verisimilitude: Of course, just noting. 2018-04-17T20:56:02Z Shinmera: Please refrain from such comments here. 2018-04-17T20:56:17Z verisimilitude: I've noticed that's a common response, an implied threat; of course, Shinmera. 2018-04-17T20:57:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: > verisimilitude: so you think there's something wrong with being effeminate? are you a homophobe? 2018-04-17T20:57:08Z theemacsshibe[m]: What did I miss? 2018-04-17T20:57:23Z Shinmera: Nothing because it's off topic 2018-04-17T20:57:26Z Shinmera: Move on. 2018-04-17T20:57:26Z pmetzger: theemacsshibe[m]: He was saying Rust users are homosexuals to insult them. 2018-04-17T20:57:34Z Shinmera: Please move on. 2018-04-17T20:57:37Z verisimilitude: Just read the backlog, theemacsshibe[m]. 2018-04-17T20:57:53Z pmetzger: theemacsshibe[m]: implying it is an insult of course. 2018-04-17T20:58:01Z Shinmera: pmetzger: That goes for you too 2018-04-17T20:58:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's quite rude to gay people. My datefriend is much better than any Rust user. 2018-04-17T20:58:50Z verisimilitude: I didn't mean to derail the conversation, if that helps, Shinmera. 2018-04-17T20:58:55Z verisimilitude: It was meant as an aside. 2018-04-17T20:59:08Z Shinmera: I don't care just everybody shut the fuck up about this already jesus. 2018-04-17T20:59:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: They tried to learn Scheme once 2018-04-17T21:01:34Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-17T21:02:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-17T21:04:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: Enough garbage collection, let's get back to literate programming again. 2018-04-17T21:05:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: I like LP, it's like reading a maths textbook where the author walks you through the problem very verbosely. 2018-04-17T21:07:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-17T21:07:20Z Josh_2: verisimilitude: the banter is strong with you xD 2018-04-17T21:08:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'm pretty sure most LP programs have splitting functions which isolate the code and the documentation so you can just use either. 2018-04-17T21:11:58Z verisimilitude: Yes, Josh_2; say, has anyone else had issues with CCL being unable to find its queer little database it uses; I've been unable to do some work under it and, using GuixSD, am reluctant to directly modify anything related to it. 2018-04-17T21:13:11Z verisimilitude: I'm also having issues conditionally loading this code, because CLISP whines about the #$ reader macro. 2018-04-17T21:13:36Z Josh_2: You said queer 2018-04-17T21:13:41Z Josh_2: that might hurt some feel feels 2018-04-17T21:13:53Z Josh_2: also I don't use CCL so I canny halp 2018-04-17T21:14:23Z phoe: This was one wonderful ELS 2018-04-17T21:14:31Z Josh_2: Is it over already? 2018-04-17T21:14:35Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-17T21:14:41Z sjl: Sad I missed it. Maybe next year. 2018-04-17T21:15:05Z phoe: Yes, it is over - though people are staying for longer since Marbella is just that pretty 2018-04-17T21:15:06Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-17T21:15:35Z Josh_2: make a lil holiday out of it 2018-04-17T21:15:49Z phoe: I wish I could, gotta get back to Poland though. 2018-04-17T21:15:53Z jcowan: Am I right to think that whereas block names have both lexical scope and dynamic extent, catch tags have indefinite scope and dynamic extent? 2018-04-17T21:16:29Z Shinmera: catch tags have dynamic scope. 2018-04-17T21:16:32Z rme: ccl expects to find the interface db (darwin-x86-headers64/ or whatever) in the #p"ccl:" directory. By default, that's the same directory as the heap image file. You should be able to set the environment variable CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY if that is not right. 2018-04-17T21:16:34Z pmetzger: catch tags have dynamic scope / extent. 2018-04-17T21:16:48Z jackdaniel: jcowan: block has lexical scope and extent 2018-04-17T21:16:49Z verisimilitude: I'll try that; I appreciate the assistance, rme. 2018-04-17T21:17:13Z jackdaniel: trying to call return-from from to non-existing block (i.e from escaped function) signals a condition 2018-04-17T21:17:22Z jackdaniel: same applies to tagbody/go 2018-04-17T21:18:29Z jackdaniel: indefinite scope of catch would imply continuations of some sort 2018-04-17T21:18:46Z Shinmera: or worse: unconditional jumps 2018-04-17T21:18:48Z Xof: ELS is over (sad face) 2018-04-17T21:18:55Z jackdaniel: it was great though 2018-04-17T21:19:09Z Xof: and I didn't even manage to tell didier that I have a fix for all his method-combination issues 2018-04-17T21:20:19Z theemacsshibe[m]: Are there any interesting lisp shows in Melbourne Australia? Not the Florida one. 2018-04-17T21:21:04Z Xof: it was a very good ELS 2018-04-17T21:21:20Z Xof: in terms of setting, second favourite location (after Zadar) 2018-04-17T21:21:38Z Xof: but with 3x the number of attendees as Zadar, so overall probably hits #1 2018-04-17T21:21:52Z Xof: Genova next year, April 1-2 (put it in your diaries now!) 2018-04-17T21:23:50Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-17T21:25:24Z verisimilitude: It's interesting, rme. 2018-04-17T21:26:07Z verisimilitude: So, the GuixSD CCL expects to find this, I've omitted the /gnu/store/ path: 2018-04-17T21:26:07Z verisimilitude: /lib/x86-headers/libc/constants.cdb 2018-04-17T21:26:35Z verisimilitude: There's a /lib/ there, but no x86-headers/, no libc/, and not a single cdb file. 2018-04-17T21:26:44Z verisimilitude: I suppose this is something for #guixsd, at this point. 2018-04-17T21:27:00Z verisimilitude: This is the default location it checks, by the by. 2018-04-17T21:27:10Z verisimilitude: I'll remember that environment 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Well, duh! 2018-04-18T00:50:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T00:51:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T00:51:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T00:56:29Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T00:56:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:00:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:02:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:04:07Z palter joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:04:07Z palter quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T01:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:06:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:08:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:11:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:17:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:18:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:22:12Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:22:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:25:22Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:26:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:29:02Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:30:35Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:31:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:33:49Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:37:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:38:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:42:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:46:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T01:47:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:51:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T01:52:22Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:52:47Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:53:38Z doesthiswork1 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T01:53:39Z doesthiswork quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T02:00:24Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:03:29Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T02:05:15Z fisxoj quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T02:07:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:12:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:17:20Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:21:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:21:40Z pierpa: alternatively, do not do any documentation, so whatever it does is right. 2018-04-18T02:24:05Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:24:18Z verisimilitude: I still don't understand the obsession with tests. 2018-04-18T02:24:34Z verisimilitude: How is a test better than, say, ASSERT? 2018-04-18T02:25:13Z verisimilitude: The test is separate; sure, it only runs once, but then you're caught in the idea that you can write perfect tests to test imperfect code. 2018-04-18T02:25:44Z pierpa: a test can do an expensive computation. ASSERTs better be quick executing 2018-04-18T02:25:45Z verisimilitude: That recursion needs to be broken somewhere and the easiest place is before it starts. 2018-04-18T02:26:55Z verisimilitude: It seems strange to talk about performance like that for several reasons; firstly, it's clearly more important that the program is correct; secondly, this is Lisp and, if only performance mattered, Lisp wouldn't be chosen. 2018-04-18T02:27:35Z verisimilitude: With the ASSERT, you can even use restarts and continue; you can't do that with a test, but what if your test is wrong and fails to cover something that would only show up during actual execution over a long period of time? 2018-04-18T02:27:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:28:14Z pierpa: then you would be no worse than if the there were no test 2018-04-18T02:30:40Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:30:47Z verisimilitude: What I mean is a test only tests specific values likely to fail. 2018-04-18T02:31:03Z verisimilitude: The ASSERT wouldn't; it would be testing everything, constantly. 2018-04-18T02:32:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:33:38Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:34:13Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:34:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:35:00Z jjkola: I think both have their uses 2018-04-18T02:35:17Z mathZ left #lisp 2018-04-18T02:36:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:37:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:39:03Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:39:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:39:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:41:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:42:14Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T02:42:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:42:39Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T02:44:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:44:57Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:45:41Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T02:46:04Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:48:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:48:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:49:09Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:49:22Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T02:49:29Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:51:21Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:52:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:52:38Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T02:52:54Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:54:35Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T02:55:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:55:10Z jeosol joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:55:44Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:58:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T02:59:53Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:00:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:03:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:05:28Z pfdietz: Absent formal verification, testing is indispensible. And you might as well package up the tests so anyone can run them. 2018-04-18T03:06:01Z xaxaac quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T03:08:04Z verisimilitude: How are tests better than ASSERT; ASSERT is already present, as well. 2018-04-18T03:08:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:08:42Z pfdietz: How does assert ensure you've delivered working code, if you haven't tested it? 2018-04-18T03:09:02Z pfdietz: The assert doesn't execute itself; test cases do.' 2018-04-18T03:09:49Z pfdietz: Delivering software of any complexity that works is very hard, and testing is not an optional part of that process. 2018-04-18T03:13:02Z verisimilitude: There's a difference between using a program to see if it works and writing however many test cases that check if something continues performing identically according to the test. 2018-04-18T03:13:18Z verisimilitude: Using a program to truly see if it works is necessary, but not this testing fad. 2018-04-18T03:13:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:14:38Z pfdietz: ... 2018-04-18T03:14:48Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:14:51Z pfdietz: Dude. 2018-04-18T03:15:18Z pfdietz: Casual execution of a program to "see if it works" will do f-all in a program of any complexity. 2018-04-18T03:16:26Z pfdietz: I was being serious when I said testing is not optional. 2018-04-18T03:16:59Z verisimilitude: ``Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.'' 2018-04-18T03:17:06Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:17:18Z theemacsshibe[m]: calm down Doctor Knuth 2018-04-18T03:17:41Z verisimilitude: Now, the funny aspect of all of these things that supposedly aren't optional is that they really are optional. 2018-04-18T03:17:52Z pfdietz: Here on Planet Earth, program verification is still largely an academic concept. 2018-04-18T03:18:45Z verisimilitude: Give a man a test and he'll know his program works. Give a man many tests and he'll never be quite certain. 2018-04-18T03:19:10Z verisimilitude: Now, joking aside, it's a fad and it's clearly not at all necessary. 2018-04-18T03:19:16Z pfdietz: Give me your code that you haven't tested, and I can be quite certain it will be shit. 2018-04-18T03:19:18Z verisimilitude: I don't understand why you think it's not. 2018-04-18T03:19:33Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/cl-ecma-48.lisp 2018-04-18T03:19:59Z verisimilitude: I tested this by actually running it and making sure it produced proper output in a few different cases. 2018-04-18T03:20:14Z verisimilitude: I don't need some fancy test suite to make certain a macro compiles a description correctly. 2018-04-18T03:20:25Z smokeink: check this out guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iavSKtqjVNA IOHK | Runtime Verification; Prof. Grigore Roșu CEO. 2018-04-18T03:21:35Z smokeink: "The 50 years of research and development work on K made possible what many thought couldn't be done. We can automatically generate a correct-by-structure virtual machine from it's formal specification, which is fast enough to run real programs." this is the tool in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSaIKHQOo4c 2018-04-18T03:22:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:22:10Z verisimilitude: That's interesting, smokeink; I'll watch this later. 2018-04-18T03:22:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:24:24Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:28:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:30:29Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:30:51Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:31:48Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:31:55Z smokeink: Semantics-based Program Verifiers for All Languages https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxdPjbpn95s 2018-04-18T03:32:06Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:32:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:34:48Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:36:15Z verisimilitude: Also, pfdietz, if you actually are inspecting that code, even a tad, know that I purposefully wrote the macros to attempt to generate invalid lambda lists if my rules weren't followed. 2018-04-18T03:36:19Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:36:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:39:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:40:36Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:44:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:44:56Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:46:01Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:47:05Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T03:47:16Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:49:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:49:51Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:50:14Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T03:50:21Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:53:25Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:54:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:54:08Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:54:21Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:54:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:55:22Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:55:27Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:55:59Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:57:09Z Jen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:57:21Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T03:57:21Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-18T03:57:40Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T03:59:44Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:00:22Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:02:00Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:03:27Z Jen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:04:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:06:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:08:05Z White_Flame: verisimilitude: yeah, it's great that we can use runtime checks at compiletime in lisp 2018-04-18T04:08:25Z White_Flame: as opposed to having the runtime burden, or running separate sanity testing code not included in the runtime 2018-04-18T04:08:37Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:08:48Z White_Flame: of course, integration testing will always be the most meaningful 2018-04-18T04:09:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:09:48Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:10:34Z pillton: verisimilitude: The unit tests aren't for you today, they are for you in six to twelve months time and they are there for your contributors to ensure they don't make the same mistakes as you did. 2018-04-18T04:11:14Z pillton: verisimilitude: Unit tests are also valuable when you are developing across multiple lisp implementations and on different platforms. 2018-04-18T04:11:30Z White_Flame: the biggest problem with unit testing is that people have no idea what a "unit" should be, and end up meaninglessly fine-grained 2018-04-18T04:12:24Z White_Flame: that, and complected design makes separating out & configuring units for testing incredibly difficult 2018-04-18T04:13:04Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:13:50Z aeth: Writing unit tests are about as optional as wearing a seatbelt 2018-04-18T04:13:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:14:07Z aeth: You won't really notice their absence until you really notice their absence 2018-04-18T04:14:14Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:14:43Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:15:16Z White_Flame: I've always done coarser grained testing, and never once lamented not spending the time to meticulously unit test 2018-04-18T04:15:44Z aeth: Lisp is actually a good choice for if performance matters. It's not competing against fast languages like C or C++ or Java or C# (although it can be about as fast as the latter two) 2018-04-18T04:15:59Z aeth: It's competing against Ruby, Python, etc. Slow, interpreted languages for the most part. 2018-04-18T04:16:50Z aeth: White_Flame: I mostly REPL-test and run example programs. REPL-testing is perfectly fine... until you refactor. Oh well, I hope I don't introduce new bugs. 2018-04-18T04:17:41Z White_Flame: repl test -> copy -> (deftest name () ...paste...) 2018-04-18T04:18:01Z aeth: It's not that easy. 2018-04-18T04:18:24Z aeth: It's really hard to have a "unit" in a game engine. 2018-04-18T04:18:42Z White_Flame: yep, hence my complecting statement above 2018-04-18T04:18:53Z aeth: And this is in CL, with 0 non-constant globals. 2018-04-18T04:18:58Z aeth: Imagine C++ 2018-04-18T04:19:14Z White_Flame: but even so, you choose when to call your testing functions. Startup your code environment, then call test functions 2018-04-18T04:19:36Z aeth: I'm definitely going to have tests 2018-04-18T04:19:38Z White_Flame: we are a dynamically runtime system after all 2018-04-18T04:19:44Z aeth: But I might have to do a lot of writing to get tests 2018-04-18T04:19:50Z White_Flame: no need to have tests locked up through their own main() 2018-04-18T04:20:29Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-18T04:20:39Z aeth: Not everything I do is currently dynamic. Some things were trivial, like for any higher ordered function using 'foo instead of #'foo 2018-04-18T04:20:44Z aeth: Some things will require some effort 2018-04-18T04:21:04Z aeth: The problem is mostly FFI 2018-04-18T04:21:13Z aeth: CL is a lot easier if you never have to touch C libraries. 2018-04-18T04:21:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:21:51Z aeth: With the exception of an entirely CLX graphical application (which would be 2D-only?), that's basically impossible for graphical applications, although C can be minimized. 2018-04-18T04:22:00Z aeth: The C stuff is unreliable, hard to test, very stateful, etc. 2018-04-18T04:22:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:22:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:23:09Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:23:15Z aeth: I don't think the actual renderer can be tested, which is a shame. 2018-04-18T04:25:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:27:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:27:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:29:54Z verisimilitude: As you can imagine, I don't have any contributors, pillton; note that in CL-ECMA-48, there is a single check to determine if the Lisp implementation meets the one nonstandard quality needed (support for a seven-bit character set) and one additional check if ASCII is supported for optimizations. Asides from this, there's no nonstandard dependencies, but checking on multiple implementations is still valuable and what I do. 2018-04-18T04:30:53Z verisimilitude: While I can understand how tests are comparable to a seatbelt, I disagree with the analogy. A seatbelt isn't going to protect you if you drive recklessly into an eighteen wheeler; you will still be destroyed, with or without the seatbelt. 2018-04-18T04:31:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:34:05Z pfdietz: The opposite of "perfect" is not "useless". 2018-04-18T04:34:27Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:35:34Z verisimilitude: I'd think tests, at least as commonly used, are more comparable to wearing a helmet constantly. 2018-04-18T04:36:25Z verisimilitude: A helmet will protect you from a subset of truly oblivious and stupid mistakes, such as walking near a building with debris falling, so long as the debris isn't so strong to break the neck or strikes a part of the body not protected by the helmet. 2018-04-18T04:36:39Z pillton: Please stop. 2018-04-18T04:37:05Z verisimilitude: Well, you have some people writing that tests are mandatory; I'm simply challenging such an assertion. 2018-04-18T04:37:15Z verisimilitude: I believe it's clearly incorrect. 2018-04-18T04:37:25Z pillton: You aren't challenging the assertion. You are challenging the analogy. 2018-04-18T04:39:26Z verisimilitude: In closing, wearing a helmet while wearing a seatbelt is an even safer way to drive, so people should clearly do that. 2018-04-18T04:39:46Z verisimilitude: If you're going to be a professional trucker, a helmet should be mandatory; I'd fire any truck driver of mine who refused to wear a helmet. 2018-04-18T04:41:48Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:43:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:43:46Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:44:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:44:10Z pfdietz: V, out of curiosity: what's the size of the largest program you've been involved in the development and maintenance of? 2018-04-18T04:46:56Z jcowan_: I have a little plugin for the Chibi Scheme REPL; if you type @OK, it writes the previous expression and its result into a file of tests. 2018-04-18T04:47:36Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T04:47:39Z jcowan_: Also, there is a counterexample to the correctness-ueber-alles assumption, I think due to Ken Thompson but I'm not sure. 2018-04-18T04:48:10Z jcowan_: See [a large, long-running program with many bugs]? Which would prefer, eliminating 100 bugs, or making it run 100 times as fast? 2018-04-18T04:48:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:48:31Z jcowan_: The plugin unifies REPL-testing with repeatable unit testing. 2018-04-18T04:49:08Z verisimilitude: I take it ``V'' is me, pfdietz. 2018-04-18T04:49:17Z pfdietz: Yes. 2018-04-18T04:49:59Z pfdietz: The reason I ask is that a lesson you have taken from a toy example of a few hundred lines will not apply to development of a system of many thousands or millions of lines. 2018-04-18T04:50:11Z verisimilitude: Well, I try very hard to not let any of my programs get larger than one thousand lines, if I can help it; one way I do this is by looking for functionality I can split off. 2018-04-18T04:50:40Z pfdietz: In large systems, testing is vital to prevent the system from regressing as it evolves. 2018-04-18T04:50:47Z verisimilitude: I'd be inclined to believe a project encompassing millions of lines is already doomed, one way or the other. 2018-04-18T04:51:20Z pfdietz: So, testing is unnecessary, if we define away the places where it is? 2018-04-18T04:51:31Z pfdietz: (is necessary) 2018-04-18T04:51:57Z verisimilitude: That sentence reminds me of the ending to ``AKIRA'', pfdietz, the idea of a system so grossly large evolving without regressions. 2018-04-18T04:52:00Z pfdietz: "Programming in the Large" is not the same as "Programming in the Small". 2018-04-18T04:53:00Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:53:02Z verisimilitude: While I'm not going to claim a single man couldn't understand in its entirety a program that is millions of lines long, or any length, I will write that a program that a single man doesn't understand is too big. 2018-04-18T04:53:29Z pfdietz: Your personal distaste doesn't mean anything, of course. 2018-04-18T04:53:39Z verisimilitude: If you're making changes to a program and need tests because it is so grossly large that you can't be certain you've not made bad changes, it's too large. 2018-04-18T04:53:44Z aeth: verisimilitude: well, race car drivers wear helmets and seatbelts. 2018-04-18T04:53:59Z aeth: so some subset of people who drive professionally do wear helmets 2018-04-18T04:54:21Z verisimilitude: I will gladly concede, pfdietz, that tests are, perhaps, necessary for development of a large program if the designers are determined that no single man should understand it in its entirety. 2018-04-18T04:54:31Z mlf|2 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:54:32Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:54:37Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:54:41Z mlf|2 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T04:54:49Z verisimilitude: Hey, that also helps make programmers fungible, which is even better. 2018-04-18T04:55:21Z verisimilitude: That is an interesting observation with my analogy, aeth. 2018-04-18T04:55:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T04:56:40Z verisimilitude: So, I suppose we can agree that any redundant measures are good when lives are truly going to be at stake and when things are unnecessarily complicated. 2018-04-18T04:57:14Z aeth: jcowan_: That probably explains why chibi has good tests 2018-04-18T04:57:20Z verisimilitude: However, the vast majority of drivers don't wear helmets and writing tests is a waste of time and effort for the vast majority of programmers. 2018-04-18T04:57:39Z pfdietz: "Unnecessarily complicated"? Large programmings systems do things that toy program can't. You can't just say the problems they solve shouldn't be solved. 2018-04-18T04:58:06Z jcowan_: aeth: Actually no, I haven't productized the plugin, so nobody uses it but me 2018-04-18T04:58:22Z verisimilitude: It is usually trivial to prove a program can be smaller and simpler than it currently is, pfdietz. 2018-04-18T04:58:59Z aeth: verisimilitude: 1 million lines is almost certainly bad engineering, with few exceptions. Especially in a language like Lisp. 100,000 is definitely something you might see, though. e.g. Compiler, OS, web browser, game engine. 2018-04-18T04:59:09Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T04:59:26Z aeth: Some things just require complexity, like OS drivers or supporting media formats. Although you could probably move those all into libraries. 2018-04-18T04:59:38Z aeth: (It will hurt performance for drivers, though.) 2018-04-18T04:59:44Z pfdietz: The real world is a messy and complex place, and real programs in that world become messy and complex things as a result. Real programs aren't large just to spite you. 2018-04-18T04:59:48Z verisimilitude: My larger point was that you should section off programs and, when known to work, seal them off so they need not be worried about again. 2018-04-18T05:00:10Z verisimilitude: You don't need tests after that point and I'd argue you don't need them before in most cases. 2018-04-18T05:00:29Z aeth: If only everything was modular 2018-04-18T05:00:39Z aeth: Modularity is hard for a lot of things 2018-04-18T05:00:41Z verisimilitude: Many things can be made modular. 2018-04-18T05:00:43Z pfdietz: In large, real programs testing is absolutely necessary to keep entropy at bay. 2018-04-18T05:01:02Z verisimilitude: Again, I don't want to conflate ``unit testing'' with actual testing. 2018-04-18T05:01:21Z aeth: verisimilitude: Breaking certain things up into thousands of libraries actually makes the task harder because the library function has to support general use but the application function can be very specific. 2018-04-18T05:02:05Z doesthiswork1: pfdietz: I like that that statement remains true for several different definitions of entropy 2018-04-18T05:02:14Z verisimilitude: There's a world of difference from making a change to a program, compiling it, and then checking that the changes work properly and ``abs(1)=1'' or, for poor languages, ``abs(MAX_INT)=1''. 2018-04-18T05:02:49Z aeth: verisimilitude: (abs most-positive-fixnum) 2018-04-18T05:02:50Z verisimilitude: That's true, aeth, but human judgment is supposed to intervene with things become unreasonable, one way or the other. 2018-04-18T05:03:02Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T05:04:22Z verisimilitude: BIGNUMs and the numerical tower are beautiful, aeth. 2018-04-18T05:04:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:04:50Z pfdietz: Integration testing is no substitute for unit testing (and vice versa). 2018-04-18T05:06:10Z aeth: verisimilitude: It depends on if you want performance or correctness. Fortunately, in CL, you can choose between the two instead of having one chosen for you. 2018-04-18T05:06:35Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-18T05:06:38Z aeth: (Well, sort of. You'd have to convince the compiler it's really still a fixnum, which isn't always easy.) 2018-04-18T05:08:24Z verisimilitude: The easiest way to do this, aeth, would be to define ABS in terms of more fundamental operations, until any necessary checking is done in very few or a single place. 2018-04-18T05:09:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:16:21Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:17:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:18:00Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:18:57Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:19:52Z iqubic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T05:21:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:21:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:23:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:26:24Z Guest74201 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:26:38Z iqubic` is now known as iqubic 2018-04-18T05:28:15Z joh11 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:30:26Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:31:20Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-18T05:31:41Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:32:23Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:32:35Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-18T05:33:35Z u0_a183 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:35:26Z joh11 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T05:35:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:39:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:40:03Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:40:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:41:06Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:45:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T05:50:15Z joh11_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:52:15Z joh11_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T05:56:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-18T05:57:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:59:25Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-18T05:59:37Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-18T05:59:59Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:00:58Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-18T06:06:00Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T06:07:51Z smokeink: good morning 2018-04-18T06:08:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:09:42Z verisimilitude: Hello, beach. 2018-04-18T06:10:23Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2018-04-18T06:10:23Z lieven joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:12:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T06:13:39Z siraben` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:15:10Z siraben`` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:16:18Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:18:03Z siraben` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:18:58Z doesthiswork1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-18T06:20:34Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T06:20:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:21:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:31:07Z bakkal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:31:21Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-18T06:33:02Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-18T06:34:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:34:34Z larme joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:35:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:38:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:39:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:47:32Z siraben`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-18T06:48:20Z MasouDa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-18T06:49:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:50:19Z phoe: hey 2018-04-18T06:50:25Z phoe: it's time to packup and go back to Poland 2018-04-18T06:50:28Z phoe: therefore afk 2018-04-18T06:52:34Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:55:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:56:59Z beach: Have a good trip. 2018-04-18T06:57:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T06:57:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T06:59:05Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:07:57Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-18T07:12:23Z phoe: You too, when you do! 2018-04-18T07:15:12Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-18T07:26:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:28:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:28:21Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:33:18Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:34:19Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:36:04Z H4 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:38:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:38:45Z H4 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T07:38:48Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:40:02Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:41:26Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T07:42:04Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:42:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:42:26Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:43:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:47:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:50:56Z kajo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T07:52:18Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T07:56:17Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:02:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:06:54Z abeaumont quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:07:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:07:42Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:07:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:07:57Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:08:28Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:09:55Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:12:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:13:47Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T08:13:53Z verisimilitude: Writing C in Lisp is always fun. 2018-04-18T08:14:03Z verisimilitude: I'm joking, of course. 2018-04-18T08:14:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:14:32Z capisce: how about writing Lisp in C? 2018-04-18T08:15:51Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:17:04Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T08:17:36Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:17:45Z verisimilitude: That would be an improvement, of course. 2018-04-18T08:19:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:19:19Z verisimilitude: With ECL, I'm really writing C: 2018-04-18T08:19:19Z verisimilitude: #+ecl (ffi:c-inline ((ext:file-stream-fd stream)) (:int) (values) 2018-04-18T08:19:19Z verisimilitude: "{struct termios t; tcgetattr(#0, &t); t.c_lflag |= ECHO|ICANON; tcsetattr(#0, TCSANOW, &t);}") 2018-04-18T08:20:04Z verisimilitude: With other implementations, I'm writing the same thing, but tcgetattr, tcsetattr, the constants, and other tidbits are real Lisp functions. 2018-04-18T08:20:30Z verisimilitude: A really good implementation makes the functions accept actual Lisp streams, but only Allegro does this that I'm currently aware of. 2018-04-18T08:20:34Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:21:12Z verisimilitude: Allegro also provides a function specifically for enabling or disabling system echoing, which is more pleasant to work with than this. 2018-04-18T08:22:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:23:05Z verisimilitude: Of course, the implementations that provide these functions that want a file descriptor instead make you get the file descriptor from the stream and they're very unreasonable about it. 2018-04-18T08:23:52Z verisimilitude: You can't get the file descriptor of a synonym stream, as an example; no, you must get the stream it uses and then get that file descriptor. 2018-04-18T08:24:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:24:31Z verisimilitude: This is just one reason to avoid nonstandard Common Lisp, most of the implementations provide horrible nonstandard APIs. 2018-04-18T08:24:44Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:24:48Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:26:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:26:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:36:20Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:36:29Z smokeink quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T08:37:56Z Xof: morning 2018-04-18T08:38:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:38:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:39:41Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:39:46Z u0_a183 left #lisp 2018-04-18T08:40:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: morning Xof 2018-04-18T08:41:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:42:10Z beach: Hey Xof. Where are you? 2018-04-18T08:44:09Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:45:20Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2018-04-18T08:45:20Z ioa: good morning! :) 2018-04-18T08:46:22Z rme: good late morning for a change 2018-04-18T08:46:55Z beach: Heh. 2018-04-18T08:48:25Z beach: rme: Are you planning to work today, or just take advantage of Marbella? 2018-04-18T08:49:03Z rme: today I am going to do laundry and take advantage of the time to explore the town 2018-04-18T08:49:15Z beach: Good idea. 2018-04-18T08:49:34Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:50:46Z beach: ELS is great in that there are so many great exchanges of ideas in such a short period of time. 2018-04-18T08:51:54Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T08:52:28Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T08:55:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:00:08Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:00:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:02:30Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T09:02:55Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:05:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:05:25Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:06:57Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:07:49Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:09:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:10:01Z krasnal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:10:33Z milanj_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-18T09:12:19Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:12:19Z Bronsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T09:16:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:19:11Z beach: I am preparing a talk for industry called "choosing a programming language". I am not pushing explicitly for Common Lisp, but I am giving several characteristics of different programming languages, and obviously, the language for which most good qualities add up is Common Lisp. 2018-04-18T09:19:49Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:20:24Z beach: But currently, the talk does not mention many languages, and I would like to add a list of languages for each quality that I am discussing. 2018-04-18T09:20:45Z beach: For one thing, I need a list of "single-implementation languages". 2018-04-18T09:21:09Z beach: I guess Clojure is in that group, right? 2018-04-18T09:21:50Z doesthiswork quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T09:21:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:25:09Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:26:54Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:26:54Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-18T09:26:54Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:28:32Z trigen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:30:36Z trigen joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:31:10Z cezary quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T09:32:06Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T09:32:10Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T09:32:47Z dmiles joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:34:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:34:47Z Xof: beach: at the airport, by my gate now 2018-04-18T09:35:03Z beach: Ah, OK. Have a good flight. 2018-04-18T09:35:11Z Xof: beach: not quite; I think there are variants that run on top of javascript and .net 2018-04-18T09:35:36Z beach: Good to know. I'll investigate that. Thanks. 2018-04-18T09:35:46Z Xof: even PHP isn't really a single-implementation language (there's a facebook variant). Perl5, maybe? 2018-04-18T09:36:34Z beach: I guess I need to distinguish between "single implementation" and "defined by a reference implementation". 2018-04-18T09:36:34Z Xof: R might be a single-implementation language 2018-04-18T09:36:40Z beach: Yeah. 2018-04-18T09:36:41Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:37:03Z beach: I need to investigate Ruby, Scala, etc. as well. 2018-04-18T09:37:26Z Xof: Scala I think might well be single-implementation 2018-04-18T09:38:28Z beach: I think what I'll do is I'll work on the "slides" for the talk, and then submit them here again for comments. 2018-04-18T09:39:36Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:40:24Z verisimilitude: Python is effectively a single implementation language, since so much Python only works properly under it. 2018-04-18T09:40:43Z verisimilitude: There's also Emacs Lisp. 2018-04-18T09:41:00Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:41:14Z verisimilitude: I suppose TeX counts. 2018-04-18T09:41:40Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:41:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:43:23Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:44:05Z abeaumont joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:44:46Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:46:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:47:14Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:48:20Z drastik__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:48:31Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-18T09:49:19Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:50:05Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:51:04Z verisimilitude quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-18T09:51:57Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:52:35Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:53:28Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T09:55:04Z smokeink: I wouldn't call python a single implementation language , because it's split into python2 versus python3 and python2 is split into Wide and Narrow , and they're incompatible when dealing with unicode 2018-04-18T09:55:42Z smokeink: i'd just call it a total mess 2018-04-18T09:56:22Z capisce: maybe the single implementation distinction doesn't make that much sense 2018-04-18T09:56:44Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:57:05Z capisce: open vs closed language design evolution? 2018-04-18T09:58:18Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T09:58:51Z Xof: Emacs lisp has an implementation in guile, I believe 2018-04-18T09:58:56Z Xof: ("fully compatible") 2018-04-18T09:59:31Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T09:59:42Z drastik__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:00:16Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:00:33Z Xof: TeX has multiple implementations: luaTeX is written in C, whereas regular TeX is in WEB/Pascal 2018-04-18T10:01:10Z Xof: depends what you call an implementation, I guess; is OCaml its own language, or an implementation of ML? 2018-04-18T10:01:32Z TCZ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T10:03:11Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:07:28Z Guest53448 is now known as SAL9000 2018-04-18T10:09:54Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:10:03Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:10:23Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:11:08Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T10:12:30Z drastik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-18T10:12:54Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:14:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:16:08Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:19:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:23:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:24:31Z milanj_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-18T10:27:34Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:29:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:34:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:36:08Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:36:09Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-18T10:36:09Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:36:25Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:38:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:39:00Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T10:40:19Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T10:41:26Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:42:36Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:43:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:43:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:46:43Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T10:48:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:49:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:53:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T10:59:06Z deng_cn1 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T10:59:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:00:01Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:00:02Z deng_cn1 is now known as deng_cn 2018-04-18T11:00:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:03:05Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:04:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:04:30Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:08:07Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:08:59Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:09:22Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:09:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:09:55Z milanj quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-18T11:09:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:10:35Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:14:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:14:46Z milanj_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:18:05Z drunk_foxx[m]: Why do you consider Python a single-implementation language? It has at least 7 of them 2018-04-18T11:19:33Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T11:23:15Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:25:23Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:26:57Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:27:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:28:09Z makomo: hello 2018-04-18T11:28:40Z makomo: oh man, today was great. first time that i showed my lisp code for a laboratory exercise to the TA :') 2018-04-18T11:28:54Z makomo: he couldn't believe it, he started laughing 2018-04-18T11:29:42Z schweers: why? because lisp is so obscure? 2018-04-18T11:29:44Z makomo: he liked it thought, he was pretty mindblown i think 2018-04-18T11:29:46Z schweers: btw: hi ;) 2018-04-18T11:30:02Z makomo: i guess. i don't know if anyone ever did anything in lisp for a lab at our uni 2018-04-18T11:30:06Z makomo: or lisp in general lol 2018-04-18T11:30:10Z makomo: apart from the older professors maybe 2018-04-18T11:30:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:30:59Z makomo: though* 2018-04-18T11:31:05Z schweers: our simulation methods professor refused to grade anything that was not C, C++ or Java 2018-04-18T11:31:52Z schweers: I suspect those are the only languages she knows 2018-04-18T11:33:27Z jack_rabbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T11:33:32Z makomo: yeah, it's the usual state of affairs 2018-04-18T11:33:39Z makomo: this in particular was for a "design patterns" course :') 2018-04-18T11:33:47Z schweers: lol 2018-04-18T11:33:58Z schweers: i.e. how to be a human macro expander 2018-04-18T11:34:04Z makomo: LOL exactly 2018-04-18T11:34:08Z makomo: well said 2018-04-18T11:34:16Z schweers: I remember that course very well 2018-04-18T11:34:23Z makomo: yeah, it's such crap 2018-04-18T11:34:25Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:34:50Z makomo: i mean, it's ok to recognize patterns in what you do, etc., but courses like these are always do dumb and rigid somehow 2018-04-18T11:34:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:34:59Z makomo: it's ok to have a common language for stuff we do as programmers 2018-04-18T11:35:01Z schweers: our professor (different prof) showed us the strategy pattern (if I recall correctly) in Java and I asked him if he was serious, because it looked like Object Oriented programming in C. 2018-04-18T11:35:04Z makomo: but this is just java in disguise 2018-04-18T11:35:22Z makomo: hahaha, we just did the strategy pattern ourselves 2018-04-18T11:35:28Z makomo: that was what the lab was about btw 2018-04-18T11:35:40Z schweers: i.e. a function as an argument? 2018-04-18T11:35:48Z makomo: yeah lol, pretty much 2018-04-18T11:36:16Z schweers: I didn’t even use lisp to demonstrate how silly this all was, using ruby or haskell was sufficient 2018-04-18T11:36:16Z makomo: of course in java that translates to interfaces and classes 2018-04-18T11:36:24Z schweers: not the plural ;) 2018-04-18T11:36:30Z schweers: *note 2018-04-18T11:36:39Z makomo: :-) 2018-04-18T11:39:01Z makomo: this lab was particularly fun because one of the exercises was implementing simple spreadsheet functionality 2018-04-18T11:39:07Z makomo: i.e. cells with references to each others and formulas 2018-04-18T11:39:23Z makomo: once i realized i could just stuff lisp code for formulas, that was it 2018-04-18T11:39:36Z makomo: other* 2018-04-18T11:40:34Z schweers: I find it weird that I can too get excited about stuff like that. I somehow think that this should be the most normal thing in this line of work. 2018-04-18T11:40:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:41:11Z makomo: yeah :^/, that's how it is 2018-04-18T11:41:32Z makomo: one of the things i'm trying to do is to just convince people by example, instead of just talking about lisp and how great it is 2018-04-18T11:41:51Z schweers: how is that going so far? 2018-04-18T11:42:02Z makomo: pretty good. one guy has started using emacs and learning lisp :-) 2018-04-18T11:42:16Z makomo: another has started to see the power of lisp 2018-04-18T11:42:26Z makomo: bit by bit 2018-04-18T11:42:28Z schweers: cool 2018-04-18T11:43:28Z schweers: emacs lisp was how I finally found my way to lisp. 2018-04-18T11:43:46Z makomo: pretty much same here, but it was only recently that i really got into lisp 2018-04-18T11:43:58Z schweers: it is a sad state of affairs that I prefer elisp to most mainstream languages out there 2018-04-18T11:45:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:45:38Z makomo: sadly 2018-04-18T11:46:00Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:47:07Z ineiros joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:50:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:54:53Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:55:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T11:57:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T11:58:15Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:01:35Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:01:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: There's a very bad joke I have 2018-04-18T12:02:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: The anti-Rust is Steel Wool Common Lisp. 2018-04-18T12:02:19Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:02:20Z theemacsshibe[m]: Steel wool is more useful than steel banks. 2018-04-18T12:04:41Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T12:05:22Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:07:27Z jcowan: Lisp normalizes things that are otherwise arcane 2018-04-18T12:07:37Z jcowan: "The only design pattern is to use the language." 2018-04-18T12:07:51Z jcowan: Of course, then you fall into "Curse of Lisp" territory 2018-04-18T12:08:59Z schweers: jcowan: I’m not really sure what to make of this alledged curse 2018-04-18T12:09:19Z jcowan: Oh, I have seen far too much of it. 2018-04-18T12:09:41Z schweers: I’m not so sure it really is as big as a problem as it seems 2018-04-18T12:09:41Z jcowan: "This interface implements only 10% of cuz that's all I needed. YMMV." 2018-04-18T12:11:37Z schweers: there is incomplete software written in any language 2018-04-18T12:11:46Z jcowan: Oh, of course 2018-04-18T12:11:55Z schweers: from the authors perspective, your example isn’t even incomplete 2018-04-18T12:12:10Z schweers: he/she/it didn’t necessarily have to release it 2018-04-18T12:12:14Z schweers: but did anyway 2018-04-18T12:12:17Z schweers: so that’s a plus 2018-04-18T12:16:34Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:19:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:21:25Z sheepduke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:22:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:23:31Z sheepduke: Hey, does anyone know how does clack handle static files? (Like CSS file included in a HTML etc) 2018-04-18T12:26:06Z fourier` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:27:15Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:31:23Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:32:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:33:17Z jcowan: schweers: It's a plus only if the code has widespread value 2018-04-18T12:33:43Z jcowan: often it's subtly wrong, and so people either fork it or discard it, and pretty soon everyone is effectively using their own code again 2018-04-18T12:34:03Z schweers: the more it is spread, the more value, but I would not say that just because it is not particularly widespread, that this is in and of itself a bad thing 2018-04-18T12:34:26Z schweers: I do think I see what you mean, I don’t think it is no problem at all, but I think it is blown out of proportion 2018-04-18T12:35:48Z schweers: I also wonder how this would play out if a large portion of our industry were to use (and appreciate) lisp 2018-04-18T12:36:46Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:37:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:39:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:43:12Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:43:54Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:47:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:48:51Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:50:54Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:53:21Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:54:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-18T12:56:22Z makomo: i also have a hard time believing the "curse of lisp" thing 2018-04-18T12:57:11Z makomo: jcowan: the problem you describe is something i would attribute to lack of manpower and the size of the community 2018-04-18T12:57:34Z jcowan: Adding more manpower would make it worse 2018-04-18T12:57:56Z ebrasca: I think it is more easy to start someting than to finish someting. 2018-04-18T12:58:06Z makomo: i'm not really sure. what other reason is there for not implementing 100% of the bindings? 2018-04-18T12:58:06Z jcowan: For sure 2018-04-18T12:58:28Z makomo: it takes dedicationa and time to produce something good 2018-04-18T12:58:30Z jcowan: That the individual doesn't need all of them 2018-04-18T12:58:31Z makomo: dedication* 2018-04-18T12:58:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T12:58:44Z ebrasca: It take time and some people like to start new projects. 2018-04-18T13:00:07Z makomo: jcowan: true i guess, but how is this connected to the fact that lisp normalizes arcane things, etc.? 2018-04-18T13:00:26Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:00:35Z makomo: schweers: i also wonder the same thing 2018-04-18T13:00:43Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:00:46Z jcowan: one of the examples from the original paper is "make C object oriented". This is so hard that it has only been done twice, and standardization on C++ and Objective-C has been fairly easy 2018-04-18T13:00:59Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-18T13:01:18Z jcowan: whereas "make Scheme object oriented" is a semester project, and so no OO system for Scheme has ever caught on; everyone rolls their own or does without 2018-04-18T13:01:30Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:01:44Z jcowan: as things stand, only half of CLOS was ever standardized 2018-04-18T13:02:07Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:02:58Z makomo: hm i see, it's not as easy to standardize on something as it is in other languages, when everyone can just invent their own 2018-04-18T13:03:43Z beach: jcowan: What is the lesson to be learned from "only half of CLOS was ever standardized"? 2018-04-18T13:03:43Z jcowan: Just so 2018-04-18T13:03:47Z makomo: on the other hand, here we are with ASDF, Quicklisp, Alexandria, etc. 2018-04-18T13:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:03:57Z makomo: it takes time i would say 2018-04-18T13:04:16Z jcowan: lisp is the oldest language still in use, given that Fortran has changed almost beyond recognition 2018-04-18T13:04:26Z jcowan: it should have the largest library in existence, but it doesn't 2018-04-18T13:04:48Z beach: jcowan: You are confused. 2018-04-18T13:04:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:04:54Z makomo: to me, those were very different times 2018-04-18T13:05:03Z jcowan: Okay, I am willing to be enlightened 2018-04-18T13:05:19Z beach: Common Lisp is not the oldest language. It was standardized in 1984. 2018-04-18T13:05:48Z jcowan: That's when it was standardized, not when it was invented. 2018-04-18T13:05:57Z Folkol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:06:06Z beach: Common Lisp was invented a few years before that, yes. 2018-04-18T13:06:13Z beach: But not in 1958. 2018-04-18T13:06:22Z jcowan: McCarthy's original theorem prover still runs perfectly in any modern Lisp. 2018-04-18T13:06:33Z drunk_foxx[m]: Common Lisp is not the only Lisp 2018-04-18T13:06:49Z beach: jcowan: You are reversing the implication arrows. 2018-04-18T13:06:58Z jcowan: How so? 2018-04-18T13:07:00Z beach: jcowan: Furthermore, there is absolutely not reason to believe that the size of a library is proportional to the age of a language. 2018-04-18T13:07:32Z beach: jcowan: Good Common Lisp libraries would not run on LISP1.5, so they could not have been invented back then. 2018-04-18T13:08:24Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:08:27Z beach: jcowan: Anyway, you should have listened to R Matthew Emerson's invited talk. 2018-04-18T13:08:41Z makomo: can't wait for ELS videos 2018-04-18T13:08:46Z beach: He addresses the kind of attitude you have in a very precise and funny way. 2018-04-18T13:08:50Z jcowan: If there's a transcript someday, I'll read it 2018-04-18T13:09:07Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:09:26Z makomo: does anyone know when the videos will be up? 2018-04-18T13:09:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:09:32Z beach: jcowan: Ultimately, though, what is your point? 2018-04-18T13:09:46Z beach: jcowan: Common Lisp is not good enough for you? Then go elsewhere. 2018-04-18T13:10:04Z beach: jcowan: You think the Common Lisp community is not doing enough? Then pitch in. 2018-04-18T13:10:07Z jcowan: It's not personal, and I would prefer that you not make it personal. 2018-04-18T13:10:38Z beach: jcowan: Oh, I have no reason to be personally targeted here. 2018-04-18T13:10:48Z jcowan: You are personally targeting me. 2018-04-18T13:11:02Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:11:10Z beach: jcowan: I am trying to show you how wrong your attitude is. 2018-04-18T13:11:11Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-18T13:11:31Z beach: jcowan: Plus, it is based on false logic. 2018-04-18T13:12:08Z ebrasca: jcowan: I am not going to #java to say bad think about java. 2018-04-18T13:12:26Z jcowan: I am not saying bad things about Lisp, and neither is Weinstock 2018-04-18T13:12:50Z jcowan: or Tarver for that matter 2018-04-18T13:13:27Z ebrasca: yea value of some language is measured by libraries done / years 2018-04-18T13:13:28Z phax joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:13:40Z dim: guys, you can't fight in here, it's the war room! 2018-04-18T13:14:28Z jcowan laughs 2018-04-18T13:14:34Z ebrasca: dim: Are you sure it is war? 2018-04-18T13:14:43Z jcowan: Certainly not on my part. 2018-04-18T13:14:54Z makomo: huh wow, i just connected that tarver is the same guy who made shen 2018-04-18T13:14:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:15:01Z makomo: realized* 2018-04-18T13:15:11Z makomo: didn't make the connection before 2018-04-18T13:15:18Z beach: jcowan: So I ask you again, what is the lesson to be learned from the fact that only half of CLOS was ever standardized? 2018-04-18T13:16:06Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:16:24Z beach: jcowan: Do you mean "all of it is so good that it should have been in the standard, but the people writing the standard for some reason did not do it"? 2018-04-18T13:16:26Z makomo: what would some significant stuff from "the other half" of CLOS be? 2018-04-18T13:16:53Z beach: jcowan: Or do you mean "one should never include half of ANYTHING in any standard". 2018-04-18T13:17:03Z jcowan: makomo: I'm referring to the MOP. beach: Yes, except that it isn't "for some reason" 2018-04-18T13:17:12Z makomo: jcowan: ah, i thought so 2018-04-18T13:17:41Z beach: jcowan: So you mean, anything invented by anybody should have been included in the standard, either fully or not at all? 2018-04-18T13:18:00Z jcowan: beach: Of course not. That's the strawman fallacy. 2018-04-18T13:18:17Z beach: jcowan: Explain what you mean the. 2018-04-18T13:18:28Z phax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:18:41Z jcowan: Why was the MOP excluded from the CL standard? 2018-04-18T13:18:53Z beach: jcowan: Is it that CLOS MOP is what YOU would like to see included in the standard, so you lament the fact that it didn't happen? 2018-04-18T13:19:17Z jcowan: No, but it was part of the design from the beginning. What kept it out of the standard? 2018-04-18T13:19:28Z dim: no ready, underspecified, IIUC 2018-04-18T13:19:36Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:19:38Z schweers: did MOP just come late to the party? The authors of The Art of the Metaobject Protocol seem to have CLOS sans MOP as a prerequisite 2018-04-18T13:19:54Z beach: jcowan: Oh, I can answer that. For good reasons, the committee did not find the MOP to be sufficiently well specified and the specification did not have good enough quality for the language specification. 2018-04-18T13:20:03Z beach: jcowan: You should read the AMOP. 2018-04-18T13:20:18Z jcowan: I have done so. 2018-04-18T13:20:29Z beach: jcowan: The authors say something like "yeah, we know, this document is not good enough for a standard". 2018-04-18T13:21:21Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T13:21:27Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:21:47Z jcowan: rpg's article strongly suggests that the motives for rejecting it were rather more political than that, which makes the authors' remark quite likely to be an attempt to paper over a significant split in the community (also described by rpg) 2018-04-18T13:21:54Z jcowan: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/amop-review.pdf 2018-04-18T13:22:21Z beach: jcowan: OK, I now understand. YOU would have wanted the MOP to be in the standard, It isn't so now there is something wrong with the way the standard was created. 2018-04-18T13:22:45Z jcowan: Again, you're making it personal (ad hominem fallacy). 2018-04-18T13:23:06Z jcowan: Also putting words in my mouth. 2018-04-18T13:23:36Z dim: svillemot: btw the SBCL stanza to add to ~/.sbclrc that we talked about looks like: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) 2018-04-18T13:24:18Z beach: jcowan: I apologize for that. I should have said something like "so the only way I can interpret your previous statement is as if YOU..." 2018-04-18T13:24:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:27:12Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-18T13:28:45Z beach: Anyway, time to do something else. 2018-04-18T13:28:48Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-18T13:28:58Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:29:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:31:47Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:35:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:35:32Z tfb: jcowan: at the time CLOS was arriving in CL there were really serious worries that it could not be implemented efficiently on stock hardware. Those worries were even more serious if a MOP was added: it is a long time since I read AMOP but I am not sure it provides an answer as to how slot access can be made really fast, for instance. 2018-04-18T13:36:52Z sheepduk` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:36:59Z svillemot: dim: thanks! 2018-04-18T13:37:02Z jcowan: In general I believe the strategy to be: optimize the common case (e.g. classes whose metaclass is standard-class) 2018-04-18T13:37:21Z sheepduk` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T13:37:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:38:27Z jcowan: Not different in principle from JIT compilation, or noticing that a generic-math procedure (like +, not in the sense of generic functions) is actually being used only to add fixnums and implementing it that way 2018-04-18T13:40:34Z sheepduke quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:42:04Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T13:42:19Z tfb: Yes of course: the question is does the AMOP MOP (as it existed in 1989 or whenever the cutoff date was) let you do that portably (with the things people knew how to do in 1989 -- remember that lots of people still believed that the right answer was HW still). 2018-04-18T13:43:49Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:44:17Z tfb: I think the right answer was 'punt until the next standard because we need to get this thing out of the door': no-one knew there would not be a next standard for a quarter of a century! 2018-04-18T13:45:19Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T13:45:55Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:47:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T13:52:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T13:59:00Z jcowan: rpg says (again, I have no ax to grind here) that delaying the MOP was probably a good idea, as it was still too implementation-centric; of course, nobody foresaw the collapse of CL standardization. 2018-04-18T14:01:35Z tfb: yes, he's right (remember he was behind one of the stock-hardware lisps): it was a good idea as it was not ready (my opinion of course, but I didn't know anyone who thought it was ready in my corner of the community) 2018-04-18T14:02:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:02:17Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:07:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:09:02Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:09:13Z mn3m joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:10:24Z Xof: howdy, tfb 2018-04-18T14:10:32Z Xof: wait, which tfb are you? 2018-04-18T14:11:00Z Xof: tfb or tfeb? 2018-04-18T14:11:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:12:50Z tfb: there was another tfb who was a cll person too (Thomas Burdick?) but I both tfb and when I can't get that tfeb 2018-04-18T14:12:56Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:14:20Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:14:38Z jdz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:14:40Z Xof: Yes, Thomas Burdick and Tim Bradshaw. Long time no see 2018-04-18T14:15:42Z rme: good old three-letter nicks 2018-04-18T14:16:16Z tfb: I hd to kill him as he kept getting my username. Sad, but it had to be done. 2018-04-18T14:16:33Z rme nods 2018-04-18T14:17:35Z jcowan: at one time on another freenode channel there was a huge fad for 3LNs; since I was the only one with a 6LN, my lines stood out like a sore thumb 2018-04-18T14:18:47Z tfb: Serious question though: are there any non-spammy Lisp fora now which are not this one or reddit (which I am in recovery from) 2018-04-18T14:19:55Z jcowan: if you mean completely spam-free, probably not, but c.l.l. is not very spammy except for MY USERNAME IS THE SAME AS MY SUBJECT LINE guy. 2018-04-18T14:20:06Z sjl: there's a discord that some folks use 2018-04-18T14:20:51Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:21:22Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:21:30Z tfb: jcowan: tha ks perhaps I will look at cll again if I can find a newsreader (or remember how gnus works) 2018-04-18T14:22:06Z jcowan: you can use an rss reader 2018-04-18T14:24:11Z schweers: do any of you folks employ any technique to remove string literals (or any larger literal values) from your source code? My main motivation is in order to avoid having to deal with linebreaks and indentation in the string literals. But I also like the idea of having all relevant strings in one place. 2018-04-18T14:24:17Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:24:58Z jcowan: point it at https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml?num=50 2018-04-18T14:29:34Z rme: Is that obsessive-compulsive poster still there posting his unasked-for solutions to various questions in whatever programming language he is interested in at the time? 2018-04-18T14:31:19Z rme: looks like he is 2018-04-18T14:32:12Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:32:28Z jcowan: Gavino, you mean? 2018-04-18T14:32:29Z loke: rme: Yes 2018-04-18T14:32:34Z loke: jcowan: No. WJ 2018-04-18T14:32:41Z loke: ALthough he changed his name 2018-04-18T14:32:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:33:15Z jcowan: yeah, Gavino just asks unanswerable questions 2018-04-18T14:33:16Z loke: I honestly have to admire, in some sick way, his ability to keep up that nonsense. He must spend a ridiculous amout of time doing this, and to do it for years. 2018-04-18T14:33:49Z Satou left #lisp 2018-04-18T14:33:52Z tfb: loke: WJ is why I stopped reading CLL 2018-04-18T14:33:59Z loke: tfb: Indeed 2018-04-18T14:34:14Z loke: it's bizarre 2018-04-18T14:34:37Z shrdlu68: Bot, perhaps. 2018-04-18T14:34:41Z tfb: I think he must be ill sadly 2018-04-18T14:34:50Z loke: tfb: Very likely. 2018-04-18T14:35:08Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:35:25Z loke: shrdlu68: If it's a bot, I'd be very surprised, and impressed. Also, I just decided to check the current state and one of his drecent posts is actually a correction for a bug in a previous post. 2018-04-18T14:35:29Z loke: Yes. Very, VERY bizarre 2018-04-18T14:35:32Z tfb: jcowan: thks for google groups URL 2018-04-18T14:35:41Z jcowan: Sure thing 2018-04-18T14:35:54Z jcowan: Newsreaders do have kill files, RSS readers not so much 2018-04-18T14:36:13Z jcowan: the trouble with CAPS GUY is that he keeps changing his identity 2018-04-18T14:36:41Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:36:45Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:43:42Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:43:53Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T14:45:05Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T14:46:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:48:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:49:08Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:50:06Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:50:39Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:51:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:52:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:54:01Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T14:54:33Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:54:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:56:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T14:56:12Z Bindler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T14:57:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T14:59:13Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-18T15:01:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:01:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:02:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:02:41Z jjkola_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:03:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:04:27Z jjkola quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:04:29Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:04:29Z nowhereman_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T15:07:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:08:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:08:09Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:09:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:12:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:13:08Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-18T15:13:32Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:13:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:14:56Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:15:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:15:30Z adlai: tfb: wait, a quarter of a century has gone by. there's a new standard!? 2018-04-18T15:16:01Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:16:16Z tfb: adlai: no, I suppose I meant > 2018-04-18T15:17:29Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:18:17Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:19:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:21:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:22:11Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T15:22:11Z johnvonneumann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T15:22:57Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T15:25:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:25:34Z gledos joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:27:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:27:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:31:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:31:33Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:31:37Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-18T15:32:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:32:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T15:32:53Z gledos left #lisp 2018-04-18T15:35:40Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:35:44Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:36:06Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:36:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:38:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:40:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:41:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:42:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:43:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:43:35Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-18T15:44:07Z daniel-s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T15:45:14Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:45:53Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:48:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:49:53Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T15:53:02Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:53:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:55:11Z pfdietz2: I gave up on cll and usenet in general years ago. 2018-04-18T15:57:18Z fourier` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T15:57:43Z jcowan: adlai, tfb: Technically no, the ANSI standard wasn't published until 1994, so only 24 years ago 2018-04-18T15:58:31Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T15:58:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:00:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:03:00Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:03:32Z fourier` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.50.3)) 2018-04-18T16:03:37Z tfb: jcowan: 24 is 25 to a very good approximation to a physicist 2018-04-18T16:03:51Z jcowan: True 2018-04-18T16:03:52Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:04:18Z tfb: but yes, we have a year to make a new standard, we should all now go mad... 2018-04-18T16:04:29Z jcowan: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is experimental error, 11 is prime ... 2018-04-18T16:05:13Z tfb trying to think what the right term for 'actually laughs out loud' now is 2018-04-18T16:05:16Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:05:28Z TMA: we all know, that if log(x) = log(y) then x = y. logarithm of both is 1.4 therefore... 2018-04-18T16:05:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:06:49Z jcowan: How about "/me lols irl"? 2018-04-18T16:08:05Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:08:23Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:11:01Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:11:32Z adlai: madness? standardization? i volunteer as tribute! 2018-04-18T16:13:00Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:13:51Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:14:06Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:14:09Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:16:40Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:19:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:19:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:22:38Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:23:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T16:25:44Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:25:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:32:50Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:36:01Z ebrasca: Is not cl21 this new standardization? 2018-04-18T16:36:32Z beach: I should hope not. 2018-04-18T16:36:36Z Xof: we're already ~20% of the way through the 21st century 2018-04-18T16:36:46Z Xof: better start working on cl22 2018-04-18T16:39:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:39:09Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-18T16:39:42Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:40:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T16:41:26Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:42:45Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:43:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:43:36Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:45:00Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T16:46:35Z margeas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:46:35Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:47:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:47:34Z atdmpz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:48:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:49:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:49:32Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:52:06Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:52:08Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:53:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:55:01Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T16:56:44Z phoe joined #lisp 2018-04-18T16:57:12Z dim: last I had a look at it, it seemed to me that cl21 was attempting to provide solutions to things that are not a problem... 2018-04-18T16:59:41Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:00:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:01:56Z tfb: It seems to me that, if there were to be another standard, the things to concentrate on would be things that can't be simply done in portable CL 2018-04-18T17:04:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:06:11Z borei joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:06:21Z borei: hi all ! 2018-04-18T17:06:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:06:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:07:24Z ebrasca: tfb: Can you give some example? 2018-04-18T17:07:40Z tfb: ebrasca: unicode... 2018-04-18T17:08:21Z ebrasca: But he make some good like change pi to +pi+ . 2018-04-18T17:08:21Z tfb: everyone needs it, everyone has it, all the implementations are different 2018-04-18T17:08:41Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:09:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:11:29Z hh48 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:11:48Z hh48 is now known as hh47 2018-04-18T17:13:02Z dim: unicode, sockets/network, threading and dynamic environments and IPC, maybe some more advanced app building blocks such as a reference HTTP cient and server, and I would love to have a pure-CL secure socket (TLS?) but I wonder if that's material for a standard... 2018-04-18T17:14:18Z dim is afk now 2018-04-18T17:14:24Z borei: I have some generic question, not neccessary related directly to lisp, but rather to the programming overall. So i have program, there are several objects that are evolved based on program logic, actually there are a lot of object. I need to track object "version", so if one object is updated, objects related on it will be updated as well. Introducing "version" parameter for each object should solve propblem up to certain level, but i thin 2018-04-18T17:14:24Z borei: k if objects relation-shipt will be more complex it will be dead direction. 2018-04-18T17:14:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:15:20Z borei: need some heads-up from experienced programmers 2018-04-18T17:16:49Z tfb: borei: you probably want a dependency protocol such that objects know their dependents and updates get propagated through the graph 2018-04-18T17:18:12Z borei: so it's sort of sparce matrix where i can track "version" of the links between related objects ? 2018-04-18T17:21:03Z nirved: i remember cells had some dependency built-in 2018-04-18T17:21:10Z nirved: https://github.com/kennytilton/cells/wiki 2018-04-18T17:21:14Z tfb: The CLOS MOP has an example of such a thing although it is slightly special-purpose (and I know there's a copy of the right chapter online but I can't find it now) 2018-04-18T17:22:03Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T17:22:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:22:26Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:23:23Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:26:47Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:28:32Z Selwyn joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:28:51Z hh47 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:40:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:43:21Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:43:34Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:51:03Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:53:43Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T17:54:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:55:42Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T17:58:33Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T17:59:27Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:01:35Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:02:17Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:02:29Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:03:06Z ldb: just found '(#1=((1) a) #1#) is not literally equivalent to '(((1) a) ((1) a)) 2018-04-18T18:06:15Z drunk_foxx[m]: Guys, is anyone here familiar with the University of Oslo course in Algorithms for AI and NLP, featuring Common Lisp? It's listed on Cliki, and I wonder is it worth taking, so asking for opinions 2018-04-18T18:06:16Z drunk_foxx[m]: https://is.gd/j7sRla 2018-04-18T18:06:28Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T18:06:35Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:06:50Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:07:25Z makomo: ldb: in the sense that the first shares structure while the second doesn't? 2018-04-18T18:09:22Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:09:35Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T18:11:31Z makomo: drunk_foxx[m]: i've skimmed the 2 videos where they introduce common lisp but that's all 2018-04-18T18:11:55Z makomo: it's the basic introduction to CL. i'm not sure how they use CL later on in the course itself 2018-04-18T18:12:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:13:33Z ldb quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-18T18:14:51Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:17:08Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:18:32Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T18:19:01Z LdBeth: makomo: yes 2018-04-18T18:19:06Z jcowan joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:19:45Z Selwyn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T18:22:36Z hh47 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:23:33Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:24:04Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T18:25:33Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-18T18:25:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:26:40Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:27:29Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:27:29Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:29:15Z SenasOzys_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:29:53Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T18:30:23Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:30:55Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:31:19Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:32:16Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:32:51Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:33:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:33:27Z jjkola_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:34:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:34:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:36:54Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:37:15Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:37:16Z jjkola_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:38:07Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:38:40Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:40:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:40:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:40:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:42:05Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:42:08Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:42:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:42:34Z drastik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T18:42:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:44:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:44:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:46:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:46:35Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:48:30Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:49:23Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:50:08Z jjkola_ is now known as jjkola 2018-04-18T18:50:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:50:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:51:52Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:52:20Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:52:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:53:11Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T18:54:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:54:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:54:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:54:29Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:56:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:57:05Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:59:09Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-18T18:59:44Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T18:59:48Z Xof: tfb: "dependent maintenance protocol" 2018-04-18T19:02:58Z phoe: aaaah, I am in Poland 2018-04-18T19:06:01Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T19:10:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:11:01Z atdmpz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T19:15:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:15:50Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:16:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:17:35Z hh47 quit (Quit: hh47) 2018-04-18T19:18:33Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:20:40Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:21:10Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:21:21Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:21:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:22:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:23:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:26:13Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:26:53Z stacksmith: Good morning! 2018-04-18T19:27:03Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:28:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:29:48Z stacksmith: Is there a way to query current ASDF system name, suitable for asdf:system-relative-pathname? 2018-04-18T19:30:18Z Shinmera: "current"? 2018-04-18T19:30:30Z Shinmera: Current during what 2018-04-18T19:30:55Z stacksmith: Hmm. Runtime. In initialization code. 2018-04-18T19:31:06Z Shinmera: Huh? 2018-04-18T19:31:18Z phoe: stacksmith: what do you mean, in initialization code? 2018-04-18T19:31:37Z Shinmera: If you mean the system of your own project, well, you better know the name yourself. 2018-04-18T19:31:57Z phoe: you got the dependencies wrong. your code *knows* what system it is in if it's ASDF-loaded. 2018-04-18T19:32:05Z Shinmera: If you mean the system that's being operated on during load, there's no way to get it outside of the individual perform calls, if I remember correctly. 2018-04-18T19:32:33Z phoe: because your ASD file explicitly declares to load that file. therefore there's a 1-to-N mapping between ASD system and a file. 2018-04-18T19:32:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:32:43Z Shinmera: Eh, actually, I suppose you can traverse the component tree to the root to get the system from inner perform calls. 2018-04-18T19:33:44Z stacksmith: Agreed. However, I just spent 20 minutes tracking down a stupid bug after renaming a system - it loaded fonts from a wrong directory... 2018-04-18T19:34:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:35:10Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:35:20Z stacksmith: So I am just trying to find the path to the system that was loaded, until I figure out a more rigorous way to maintain resources... 2018-04-18T19:37:17Z Shinmera: For paths relative to your sources I prefer to figure out the directory without ASDF by using something like: (defvar *here* #.(make-pathname :name NIL :type NIL :defaults (or *compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname* (error "Compile or load this file.")))) 2018-04-18T19:37:27Z stacksmith: It seemed that declaring a global to hold the system name is more wrong than querying ASDF, - it obviously has it somewhere. 2018-04-18T19:38:21Z stacksmith: Unless I am misunderstanding the goals of ASDF, which is likely. 2018-04-18T19:38:23Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:38:38Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:38:57Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:39:16Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:39:35Z stacksmith: Is there some convention for keeping resources in a known place with ASDF? 2018-04-18T19:40:47Z stacksmith: By resources I mean things other than Lisp sources... 2018-04-18T19:41:42Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:43:09Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:43:23Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T19:44:46Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:44:56Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:45:40Z anaumov joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:46:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:47:04Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:47:28Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:48:30Z phoe: stacksmith: other than Lisp sources you mean 2018-04-18T19:48:40Z phoe: so not relative to asdf:system-relative-pathname? 2018-04-18T19:48:56Z phoe: and you mean for development, not for deployment? 2018-04-18T19:49:15Z stacksmith: I think my issue is this: If I want to change the system name, say because I have a few versions I need to keep around (during development), I have to change the .asd file, the contents of the .asd file, and the directory name. Going through source looking for symbols that match the name seems just wrong. Am I being foolish or grossly missing the point? 2018-04-18T19:49:19Z phoe: I remember that #lispgames had some resources for that, because they use external assets a lot and have to bundle them into an executable when they buildops 2018-04-18T19:49:28Z phoe: wait, symbols that match? 2018-04-18T19:49:43Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:49:43Z phoe: which symbols that match the name? 2018-04-18T19:49:54Z phoe: only ASD files need to be updated 2018-04-18T19:50:04Z phoe: if you have system FOO and systems BAR and BAZ that depend on FOO 2018-04-18T19:50:34Z phoe: then you change the name of FOO to FRED, and you need to update foo.asd (change system name and file name), and bar.asd and baz.asd (change dependency name) 2018-04-18T19:50:47Z phoe: that's all. 2018-04-18T19:50:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:51:18Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:51:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:51:52Z stacksmith: phoe: I don't even have dependent system - I am just trying to keep foo1 and foo2 around. However I was loading data from a path relative to where 'foo lived. 2018-04-18T19:52:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:55:25Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T19:55:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:55:41Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:55:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:56:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:57:05Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T19:57:39Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:58:11Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:58:20Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-18T19:58:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T19:59:20Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:02:45Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:02:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:03:30Z stacksmith: OK, thanks. I just need to grow a brain and learn to think with it. 2018-04-18T20:03:58Z phoe: stacksmith: wait, you change ASD files for some kind of versioning? 2018-04-18T20:04:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:06:34Z phoe: if anything, define a system called FOO.RESOURCES or something and use that 2018-04-18T20:06:42Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:06:59Z phoe: and in other files use (asdf:system-relative-pathname :foo.resources "bar/baz/quux.jpg") 2018-04-18T20:07:07Z phoe: that's for development 2018-04-18T20:07:11Z phoe: for deployment, ask around on #lispgames 2018-04-18T20:07:12Z stacksmith: I just copied the directory with my old system, giving it a new name. Then, I had to change the asdf file name and contents, to avoid clashing with the old system. I thought that's enough for a quick and dirty way to try something new with the old system around. Then, I realized that there are hardwired references to system name, which I thought could be abstracted by querying ASDF. 2018-04-18T20:07:43Z stacksmith: I haven't thought about defining a separate system for resources... That would work. 2018-04-18T20:08:27Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-18T20:08:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:09:19Z phoe: afk, time to bus 2018-04-18T20:09:25Z stacksmith: Thanks, phoe and Shinmera. 2018-04-18T20:10:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:13:45Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:14:00Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:15:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:16:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:16:50Z Josh_2: stacksmith: brains are overrated just become a plant 2018-04-18T20:16:52Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:20:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:22:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:25:52Z fourier` joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:26:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:28:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:29:47Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:31:36Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:31:51Z bakkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:32:46Z SenasOzys_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:32:49Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:32:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:34:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:38:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:38:48Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:40:18Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:40:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:41:45Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:41:49Z Guest6423 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:41:50Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:42:05Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:42:15Z drastik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T20:42:35Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:43:34Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:43:53Z SenasOzys_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:44:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:46:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:48:59Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:51:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:52:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:53:13Z smasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T20:53:32Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:55:43Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:56:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:56:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T20:57:23Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-18T20:58:00Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:58:20Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:58:33Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:58:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T20:59:15Z drastik_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T21:00:18Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:03:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:04:08Z johnnymacs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:04:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:09:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:09:58Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:10:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:11:34Z jcowan: plants don't eat food or pay rent 2018-04-18T21:14:04Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-18T21:15:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:16:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:19:01Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:20:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:22:04Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:22:07Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:22:19Z aeth: depends on the plant 2018-04-18T21:22:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:23:09Z aeth: some plants eat insects; certain trees (e.g. fruit trees) "pay rent" 2018-04-18T21:23:16Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:23:32Z jack_rabbit: Does anyone know what's up with the development of quicklisp? The client doesn't seem to have any commits on github in > 1 year, yet issues are being resolved. Are they keeping the working repo somewhere else? 2018-04-18T21:26:39Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:27:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:27:04Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:27:22Z adlai: jack_rabbit: irc moves slowly, please wait for an answer to your question :) 2018-04-18T21:28:00Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:28:14Z jack_rabbit: adlai, Thanks, I'm aware. 2018-04-18T21:28:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:28:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:29:10Z aeth: jack_rabbit: If you're talking about quicklisp-client, it looks like the resolved issues aren't resolved through patches to quicklisp-client itself. https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed 2018-04-18T21:29:34Z aeth: Some are rejected feature requests, many are upstream implementation bugs. 2018-04-18T21:29:35Z __rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:32:34Z jack_rabbit: I see. I should have looked more closely. I guess I was mostly surprised that there were no commits in the last year, but "if it ain't broke..." 2018-04-18T21:33:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:34:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:35:43Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T21:35:52Z stacksmith: Not messing with things that work is a wonderful thing. 2018-04-18T21:35:53Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-18T21:38:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:40:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:41:31Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T21:42:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:43:12Z Anthaas_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:43:56Z himmAllRight quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-18T21:45:19Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:46:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:49:30Z __rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T21:51:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:51:05Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-18T21:52:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:52:52Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:55:21Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:55:43Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:55:44Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-18T21:55:44Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-18T21:57:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T21:58:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:00:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:01:32Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:03:06Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:03:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:03:45Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:04:43Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:04:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:05:57Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-18T22:06:36Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:06:51Z cpc26_ quit 2018-04-18T22:07:12Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:07:12Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-18T22:07:12Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:08:27Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:09:40Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:10:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:13:11Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:13:14Z __rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:13:42Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:15:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:15:30Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:16:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:17:56Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:18:09Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-18T22:19:35Z ruste joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:21:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:22:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:23:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:27:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:28:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:32:50Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T22:32:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:34:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:35:43Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:35:51Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-18T22:38:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:40:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:40:57Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:41:41Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:43:03Z jstypo joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:43:07Z sea joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:43:16Z sea: Apparently, iterating over a list is faster than iterating over a vector. Why? 2018-04-18T22:44:09Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2018-04-18T22:44:36Z sea: (time (loop for i in l)) and (time (loop for j being the elements of v)), where v and l are a vector and a list, both with the same number of elements (same elements, in fact) 2018-04-18T22:44:36Z sea: 2018-04-18T22:44:54Z sea: The second one is almost 10x slower 2018-04-18T22:45:14Z sea: oh wait, nvm 2018-04-18T22:45:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:45:36Z ebrasca: sea: I think it is related with predicting next step to execute in cpu. 2018-04-18T22:45:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:46:08Z sea: I don't think that's it, because then the results would be backwards. The vector has better locality and branch prediction 2018-04-18T22:46:14Z sea: but it's slower 2018-04-18T22:46:18Z aeth: In general, vector operations will be *faster*, especially if the complete type (which includes the length!) is known. 2018-04-18T22:46:31Z aeth: Is it possible that the loop is doing a bounds check each iteration? 2018-04-18T22:46:43Z sea: I don't know. That's the full code of my test right there 2018-04-18T22:46:45Z aeth: Try disassembling a function with it 2018-04-18T22:46:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:47:20Z aeth: What implementation is this? 2018-04-18T22:47:35Z sea: SBCL 2018-04-18T22:47:57Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:48:11Z edgar-rft: AFAIK it's (loop for i in ) and (loop for i across ) 2018-04-18T22:48:48Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-18T22:49:20Z aeth: Well I cannot reproduce it. 2018-04-18T22:49:22Z sea: Okay so I changed it to 'across' instead of 'being the elements of'. It's much faster now, but the vector loop is still slower, by a factor of..4 2018-04-18T22:50:12Z __rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T22:50:18Z aeth: (defun foo (v) (loop for j being the elements of v do (print j))) (defun bar (v) (loop for j being the elements of v do (print j))) (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4 5))) (time (foo l))) (let ((v (vector 1 2 3 4 5))) (time (bar v))) 2018-04-18T22:50:57Z aeth: When testing this sort of thing, (1) always define a function and (2) always initialize the outside data structure outside of the time 2018-04-18T22:51:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:51:22Z sea: I'm doing this: 2018-04-18T22:51:24Z sea: (let ((v (coerce (iota k) 'vector)) (l (iota k))) (time (loop for i in l)) (time (loop for j across v))) 2018-04-18T22:51:27Z sea: and k is 100,000 2018-04-18T22:51:42Z sea: So both time calls are separate, and it's initialized outside of it 2018-04-18T22:52:02Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:52:30Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-18T22:52:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:53:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:53:45Z aeth: okay: (defun foo (l) (loop for i in l do (format nil "~D " i))) (defun bar (v) (loop for j being the elements of v do (format nil "~D " j))) (let ((l (iota 100000))) (time (foo l))) (let ((v (coerce (iota 100000) 'vector))) (time (bar v))) 2018-04-18T22:54:18Z sea: When I switched to your code, and took out the print, I had to use k = 1,000,000 before the difference showed up. The vector one is half as fast 2018-04-18T22:54:21Z aeth: for me, v is winning in processor cycles most times I run that 2018-04-18T22:55:20Z aeth: One issue, though, is that it's generating a ton of garbage. 2018-04-18T22:55:46Z sea: When I run your exact code here, I get respectively: 2018-04-18T22:56:21Z sea: Oh, your exact code doesn't have the vector slower 2018-04-18T22:56:23Z sea: weird 2018-04-18T22:56:52Z sea: but when I swap in 1 million instead, it becomes slower again 2018-04-18T22:56:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:57:11Z aeth: It might be better to use (sb-profile:profile foo bar) instead of using time 2018-04-18T22:57:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T22:58:15Z sea: bar is slower in the profiler. 0.380999 sec/call, compared to 0.354999 sec/call for foo 2018-04-18T22:58:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T22:59:21Z sea: bar spends more time in the GC for some reason 2018-04-18T22:59:57Z aeth: The trick might be to find something that generates less garbage but that isn't optimized away 2018-04-18T23:00:04Z aeth: GC noise might be overwhelming anything meaningful 2018-04-18T23:00:28Z sea: but why is it consistently on bar? 2018-04-18T23:00:47Z aeth: try running them in the reverse order! 2018-04-18T23:00:52Z aeth: bar might be the loser because it runs second 2018-04-18T23:01:29Z sea: Hrm, ran it in reverse order. The times are much closer, but bar still spends more time in the GC 2018-04-18T23:01:40Z sea: even when I swap to 'across' in the loop 2018-04-18T23:02:18Z sea: [ Run times consist of 0.920 seconds GC time, and 3.040 seconds non-GC time. ] for bar 2018-04-18T23:02:19Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:02:24Z sea: [ Run times consist of 0.383 seconds GC time, and 2.981 seconds non-GC time. ] and foo 2018-04-18T23:03:09Z sea: It must be the loop macro doing something 2018-04-18T23:03:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:03:59Z aeth: This removes garbage... and the vector loses a lot. (I used do just to keep it consistent.) 2018-04-18T23:04:03Z aeth: (defun foo (l) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for i in l do (incf sum i)) sum)) (defun bar (v) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for j being the elements of v do (incf sum j)) sum)) (let ((l (iota 100000))) (time (foo l))) (let ((v (coerce (iota 100000) 'simple-vector))) (time (bar v))) 2018-04-18T23:04:10Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-18T23:04:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:04:51Z sea: What's the difference between 'vector and 'simple-vector? 2018-04-18T23:04:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:05:31Z aeth: This gets the vector to win: (defun foo (l) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for i in l do (incf sum i)) sum)) (defun bar (v) (declare ((simple-array fixnum (100000)) v)) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for j across v do (incf sum j)) sum)) (let ((l (iota 100000))) (time (foo l))) (let ((v (coerce (iota 100000) '(simple-array fixnum (100000))))) (time (bar v))) 2018-04-18T23:05:49Z aeth: Even with * instead of 100000 2018-04-18T23:05:50Z LdBeth: sea: simple vector does not have point-filler 2018-04-18T23:06:51Z sea: bar is 4x slower 2018-04-18T23:06:58Z sea: running your exact code again 2018-04-18T23:07:12Z LdBeth: fill-pointer 2018-04-18T23:07:23Z aeth: sea: Do you have (debug 3) or something? 2018-04-18T23:08:15Z sea: I think so. I took that off. Now I'm running with: (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (speed 3) (space 0))) 2018-04-18T23:08:25Z aeth: well, you can just do it locally in bar 2018-04-18T23:08:32Z aeth: (defun foo (l) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for i in l do (incf sum i)) sum)) (defun bar (v) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (debug 1)) ((simple-array fixnum (*)) v)) (let ((sum 0)) (loop for j across v do (incf sum j)) sum)) (let ((l (iota 100000))) (time (foo l))) (let ((v (coerce (iota 100000) '(simple-array fixnum (*))))) (time (bar v))) 2018-04-18T23:08:53Z sea: 837,554 processor cycles vs 6,534,470 processor cycles and this time, it takes 8x as long! 2018-04-18T23:09:07Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T23:09:10Z aeth: that is strange, I don't get that 2018-04-18T23:09:24Z aeth: I get the same time. 2018-04-18T23:09:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:09:31Z aeth: Both in time and sb-profile 2018-04-18T23:09:57Z sea: this is interesting. If I repeatedly run bar, the time varies kinda wildly 2018-04-18T23:10:03Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:10:03Z aeth: and making it longer (1 million instead of 100k) has bar win 2018-04-18T23:10:15Z aeth: sea: yeah, that's why sb-profile:report is better. 2018-04-18T23:10:25Z aeth: Run it many, many, many, many times and look at the sec/call 2018-04-18T23:10:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:10:41Z aeth: assuming you did (sb-profile:profile foo bar) 2018-04-18T23:10:53Z sea: I'm running it 100 times with profiling on and reset 2018-04-18T23:11:17Z sea: 0.144 | 0.000 | 57,648 | 101 | 0.001425 | BAR 2018-04-18T23:11:18Z sea: and 2018-04-18T23:11:22Z sea: 0.025 | 0.000 | 0 | 101 | 0.000247 | FOO 2018-04-18T23:11:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:12:48Z jack_rabbit: what is iota? 2018-04-18T23:13:13Z sea: That just generates all the numbers from 1 to n in a list 2018-04-18T23:13:18Z TCZ: its what you cant change or you go to hell its in bible 2018-04-18T23:13:44Z jcowan: right, not one iota or tilde of the law shall pass away 2018-04-18T23:15:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:15:40Z jcowan: also, dot your iotas and cross your tildes 2018-04-18T23:15:56Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T23:16:25Z jack_rabbit: For me, list took 4,695,880 processor cycles, vector took 722,763 processor cycles 2018-04-18T23:16:41Z jcowan: makes sense 2018-04-18T23:16:52Z jcowan: you don't have to retrieve the cdrs when dealing with a vector 2018-04-18T23:17:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:17:18Z jack_rabbit: yes. sea is claiming that for him, the vector one is significantly slower. 2018-04-18T23:17:23Z jcowan: cdr-coded lists would help in this situation, but not enough overall for anyone to implement them any more 2018-04-18T23:17:26Z jcowan: that's bizarre 2018-04-18T23:20:25Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:21:04Z Guest6344 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:21:47Z sea: I don't know what else it could be 2018-04-18T23:21:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:22:03Z sea: I tried disassemble on both foo and bar but they're exactly the same as far as I can tell 2018-04-18T23:22:41Z aeth: Well, first make sure that they're not the sb-profile wrapper. You might have to (sb-profile:unprofile) before disassembling now 2018-04-18T23:22:51Z sea: ah 2018-04-18T23:22:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:23:01Z aeth: My foo and bar are very different. 2018-04-18T23:23:10Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-18T23:23:24Z aeth: Same basic structure of generic-+, but the actual surroundings reflect iterating over their respective types 2018-04-18T23:24:01Z sea: http://termbin.com/ylig 2018-04-18T23:24:37Z sea: bar is much longer 2018-04-18T23:24:41Z aeth: that is not my bar 2018-04-18T23:24:42Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:24:43Z sea: I have no idea why 2018-04-18T23:24:45Z aeth: are you using my latest bar? 2018-04-18T23:24:58Z aeth: My latest bar has this: (declare (optimize (speed 3) (debug 1)) ((simple-array fixnum (*)) v)) 2018-04-18T23:25:04Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:25:33Z aeth: It's simple-array that contains fixnums, which should certainly make it win. 2018-04-18T23:25:43Z aeth: Your bar looks like a much earlier version 2018-04-18T23:25:48Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:25:59Z aeth: The one that's generic for all sequences 2018-04-18T23:26:17Z sea: Hang on then. I'll put in your declare in my bar 2018-04-18T23:26:50Z aeth: Generic sequence and number code is almost always going to lose to specific sequence and number code in performance. They're basically the only two areas where type declarations are very useful for performance ime. 2018-04-18T23:27:04Z jack_rabbit: It doesn't matter the data type if the code iterating through it is for generic sequences. 2018-04-18T23:27:22Z sea: I need to alter the coerce as well. How do I coerce something to be a simple array of fixnums? 2018-04-18T23:27:27Z aeth: jack_rabbit: but my SBCL still optimizes bar once it knows that it is a simple-array fixnum (*) 2018-04-18T23:27:32Z sea: I get type errors when I try to call bar otherwise 2018-04-18T23:27:47Z jack_rabbit: aeth, Yes, you are correct. I was speaking to sea, not you. 2018-04-18T23:27:48Z aeth: sea: you have to coerce it to '(simple-array fixnum (*)) 2018-04-18T23:28:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:28:15Z aeth: sea: If it can only hold something of one non-T type, it's going to be a different thing than something that holds something of T 2018-04-18T23:28:47Z sea: Okay so, I reset the profiler, re-profiled foo and bar, and ran them 100x 2018-04-18T23:28:57Z sea: 0.147 | 0.000 | 0 | 100 | 0.001469 | BAR \n 0.013 | 0.000 | 0 | 100 | 0.000129 | FOO 2018-04-18T23:28:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:28:59Z sea: but I still get this 2018-04-18T23:29:11Z sea: actually lemme write one per line 2018-04-18T23:29:17Z sea: 0.013 | 0.000 | 0 | 100 | 0.000129 | FOO 2018-04-18T23:29:27Z aeth: You win twice with an array type like I just gave (three times if a length is given): (1) it knows it's a certain kind of sequence and (2) it can infer what type the items are, which usually cannot be done 2018-04-18T23:30:19Z aeth: Unfortunately, this only applies to a small number of things. Portably just bit and character. Non-portably, a bunch of other numeric types like (almost always) single-float and (unsigned-byte 8) and fixnum 2018-04-18T23:30:51Z sea: http://termbin.com/4gln 2018-04-18T23:31:10Z aeth: Something is definitely up 2018-04-18T23:31:54Z aeth: An array with an element-type should almost always be the most performant kind of sequence (or data structure in general) in Common Lisp. It will even beat lists at some things that lists are supposed to be better at. 2018-04-18T23:32:19Z aeth: It's really the one optimization always worth doing if you can get away with it. 2018-04-18T23:32:45Z sea: That's how I discovered this in the first place. I was timing an 'optimized' program, and found it got slower 2018-04-18T23:33:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:34:07Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:34:20Z sea: and the thing is that along with the time: 445,976 processor cycles , 4,636,812 processor cycles I get a tonne of time results printed as well, and they all basically look like this. The vector one is much larger 2018-04-18T23:34:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:35:16Z aeth: Try restarting CL? 2018-04-18T23:35:30Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:36:13Z sea: Okay, restarted and re-evaluated what I had in the paste before. 0.148 seconds for bar, and 0.014 seconds for foo 2018-04-18T23:37:28Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:37:54Z sea: Maybe my processor has some kind of issue that makes it slower on the vector version. 2018-04-18T23:39:04Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:39:24Z pierpa: arrays with an element-type are not necessarily more performant than arrays with generic element types. It depends on what/when/how much the elements needs unboxing and reboxing. 2018-04-18T23:39:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:40:17Z pillton: The disassemble of bar shows that it calls make-sequence-iterator. 2018-04-18T23:40:37Z pillton: Which means it is calling a function to get the next element. 2018-04-18T23:40:52Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-18T23:41:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:41:01Z pillton: Disassemble (loop for j across v) and you see that it does not. 2018-04-18T23:41:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:41:26Z sea: hang on that might not be the latest disassemble. This one is here: 2018-04-18T23:41:42Z sea: http://termbin.com/2za7 2018-04-18T23:42:01Z sea: oh wait my bad 2018-04-18T23:42:04Z sea: I have to unprofile it 2018-04-18T23:42:33Z sea: http://termbin.com/lpyi Okay, there. 2018-04-18T23:44:04Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:45:04Z jack_rabbit: sea, for me 'being the elements of' is waaaaaay slower than 'across' 2018-04-18T23:45:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:45:28Z jack_rabbit: for whatever reason. Maybe 'being the elements of' assumes a generic seq. 2018-04-18T23:45:33Z pillton: sea: https://hastebin.com/cawayonuxu.lisp 2018-04-18T23:45:46Z sea: A-HA! 2018-04-18T23:45:51Z sea: I swapped it for across and this time it's faster 2018-04-18T23:45:54Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-18T23:46:02Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:46:26Z sea: So, being the elements of is slow. Why? 2018-04-18T23:46:37Z sea: What's it doing that slows it down? 2018-04-18T23:46:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:47:00Z pillton: I told you why. It is calling a function to get the next element. 2018-04-18T23:47:43Z jack_rabbit: oh, I didn't even see pillton's comments. 2018-04-18T23:47:49Z jack_rabbit: Yes, he's right. 2018-04-18T23:48:02Z sea: Why does it do that in one case and not the other? What's the behavior of 'being the elements of' supposed to be, and 'across'? 2018-04-18T23:49:00Z DataLinkDroid: energizer (~energizer@unaffiliated/energizer) has joined #lisp ouse disable 2018-04-18T23:50:31Z jack_rabbit: sea, http://termbin.com/izd9 2018-04-18T23:50:34Z pierpa: nobody can tell you why "being the elements" is slow since "being the elements" is not CL. It must be an extension of the implementation you are using. 2018-04-18T23:50:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:51:06Z sea: I was wondering why I couldn't find it in CLHS just now 2018-04-18T23:51:18Z pierpa: tht's the reason! 2018-04-18T23:51:20Z pillton: sea: It is defined here http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf. 2018-04-18T23:51:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:51:47Z pillton: It is defined to use the user-extensible sequences protocol. 2018-04-18T23:52:02Z jack_rabbit: ahh, interesting. 2018-04-18T23:52:06Z aeth: So it's the sequence-generic version, but unlike most sequence-generic things it doesn't un-generic when the type is known 2018-04-18T23:52:46Z pillton: I think only SBCL implements the user-extensible sequences protocol. 2018-04-18T23:53:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:53:24Z jack_rabbit: Is there another free CL implementation out there that works well aside from SBCL? 2018-04-18T23:54:00Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:54:07Z pierpa: all of them do 2018-04-18T23:55:00Z Bike: ccl's good, ecl's good, something something 2018-04-18T23:55:24Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:55:27Z jack_rabbit: I'll try those. I've only tried clozure and clisp, and both gave me issues. 2018-04-18T23:55:29Z drastik__ joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:55:36Z jack_rabbit: wait, ccl is clozure. 2018-04-18T23:56:19Z pierpa: if these gave you issues, most probably the flaws are in your code, IMO 2018-04-18T23:56:29Z drastik_1 joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:56:34Z aeth: CCL has a superior GC than SBCL and is fairly comparable to performance in SBCL. ECL apparently is better on some niche areas like bignum performance. 2018-04-18T23:57:01Z aeth: SBCL, though, in general is pretty nice. It's usually the fastest, the most helpful, and the most feature-rich. 2018-04-18T23:57:06Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:57:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:57:31Z aeth: You could definitely beat SBCL in performance, though, if you really tried. There's definitely lots of room for improvement all over the place. 2018-04-18T23:57:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:58:33Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-18T23:58:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-18T23:59:10Z aeth: SBCL is pretty fast, but its optimizations don't really compare to some of the ridiculous optimizations compilers with big budgets can do these days. 2018-04-18T23:59:31Z jack_rabbit: pierpa, ccl gave me an error compiling some quicklisp library. I assume that is the library's fault. clisp crashes trying to load swank, which I assume is clisp's fault. 2018-04-18T23:59:48Z aeth: Libraries are definitely written just for SBCL. 2018-04-18T23:59:57Z drastik__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:00:05Z pillton: Which is a shame. 2018-04-19T00:00:08Z aeth: Ime, libraries will usually work on CCL, often work on ECL, and give issues with just about any other implementation, especially 32-bit ones. 2018-04-19T00:00:10Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:00:11Z jack_rabbit: yes, it is. 2018-04-19T00:00:45Z pillton doesn't want to risk starting the unit test thread again. 2018-04-19T00:00:52Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:01:01Z aeth: It's hard to not write for SBCL, though. There are so many ways to figure out what's going on in SBCL. 2018-04-19T00:01:16Z aeth: I'm pretty sure of how my code behaves in SBCL, at least at the defaut optimization levels. 2018-04-19T00:01:27Z aeth: s/defaut/default/ 2018-04-19T00:01:49Z aeth: Last time I checked, I couldn't find a profiling solution for CCL. 2018-04-19T00:02:08Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:02:28Z jack_rabbit: The library is static-vectors, and the error is: "Foreign function not found: X86-LINUX64::|memset|" 2018-04-19T00:02:48Z aeth: Really? static-vectors works for me in CCL. It gives me issues in ECL, though, even though it's supposed to support it. 2018-04-19T00:03:27Z drastik_1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:04:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:04:14Z drastik__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:04:16Z jack_rabbit: hmm :/ 2018-04-19T00:04:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:05:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:05:26Z aeth: But that does seem to match my experience. Things that use CFFI are the most problematic. 2018-04-19T00:05:41Z pierpa: duh 2018-04-19T00:05:42Z aeth: cl-sdl2 alone limits my project to SBCL, CCL, and ECL. 2018-04-19T00:05:54Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:09:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:10:27Z aeth: It's unfortunate that unless CLX works for you there's no way to avoid at least some foreign code. 2018-04-19T00:10:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:13:56Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-19T00:15:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:16:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:19:32Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:19:46Z White_Flame: aeth: telnet or web interfaces ftw 2018-04-19T00:21:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:22:31Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-19T00:22:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:24:22Z antoszka quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-19T00:26:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:28:05Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, unfortunately mcclim seems to need static-vectors... 2018-04-19T00:28:17Z aeth: interesting 2018-04-19T00:28:30Z aeth: static-vectors seems to have taken over the world 2018-04-19T00:28:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:29:30Z White_Flame: seems like that should have been part of FFI 2018-04-19T00:30:11Z aeth: Now if only there were convenient solutions for other things 2018-04-19T00:31:14Z pfdietz: SBCL is about 500K LOC. Clasp/LLVM is maybe 5M LOC, last I checked. 2018-04-19T00:31:57Z pillton: White_Flame: I'm not sure what problem static-vectors solves. Do some implementations invoke the GC during foreign function calls? 2018-04-19T00:32:13Z White_Flame: it's not during, it would be between 2018-04-19T00:32:13Z Bike: i don't see why they wouldn't 2018-04-19T00:32:29Z White_Flame: you can't pass a pointer to foreign code if it could be moved at any time in the future 2018-04-19T00:33:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:34:26Z pillton: It is only a problem if the foreign code retains the pointer. 2018-04-19T00:34:33Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-19T00:34:34Z White_Flame: ...right 2018-04-19T00:34:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:35:11Z White_Flame: and in a lot of I/O cases, including graphics, the call does not synchronously encapsulate all access to the buffer you give it 2018-04-19T00:35:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:35:47Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:39:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:41:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:43:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:43:52Z aeth: pillton: Without static-vectors, you're either going to be working with a foreign array through stuff like mem-aref (not a pleasant experience) or you're going to copy from a CL-native vector into a foreign array at some point (which can kill your performance). 2018-04-19T00:44:49Z aeth: With static vectors, there's no need to do either, as long as you're in control of the allocation and not the foreign library. 2018-04-19T00:45:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T00:46:23Z aeth: The downside is that you're going to either have to use with-static-vector/with-static-vectors or you'll have to explicitly call free-static-vector in your own unwind-protect at some point. 2018-04-19T00:47:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T00:47:15Z aeth: I'm guessing you also can't use (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) on a static-vector to stack allocate, so that's another restriction. 2018-04-19T00:47:46Z varjag quit (Ping 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Appears I may need to update the "interface database" 2018-04-19T02:28:06Z jack_rabbit: Rebuilding CCL? 2018-04-19T02:28:25Z pillton: Yes. 2018-04-19T02:28:45Z jack_rabbit: I got it as a binary package. Hang on, i'll try building it from source. 2018-04-19T02:28:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:30:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:33:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:34:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:36:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:36:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:38:14Z jack_rabbit: huh. I didn't even need to rebuild. Just used the download from the clozure.com site rather than my distro repo. 2018-04-19T02:38:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:38:51Z chump joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:41:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:42:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T02:42:47Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:47:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T02:55:31Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T03:00:46Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-19T03:02:49Z xaxaac quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T03:02:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T03:03:16Z dvdmuckle is now known as cavepaintingmuck 2018-04-19T03:03:26Z cavepaintingmuck is now known as dvdmuckle 2018-04-19T03:04:25Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T03:07:22Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-19T03:07:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T03:13:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T03:15:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T03:15:37Z 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2018-04-19T06:51:09Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T06:52:21Z TMA: jack_rabbit: (read-from-string "#_memset") => (values 'WIN32::|memset| 8) or (values 'WIN64::|memset| 8) 2018-04-19T06:53:28Z jack_rabbit: TMA, Thanks. :) 2018-04-19T06:53:44Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T06:57:50Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-19T06:58:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:01:54Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:03:51Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:04:50Z runejuhl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-19T07:05:29Z runejuhl joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:05:46Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:05:46Z TMA: also ccl 1.6 32-bit no longer runs on 64-bit windows 10 2018-04-19T07:06:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:07:04Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:09:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:14:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:14:24Z atdmpz quit 2018-04-19T07:19:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:20:09Z dxtr quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-19T07:20:20Z dxtr joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:20:52Z rme: TMA: Support for running the 32-bit lisp on 64-bit Windows was added (by yours truly) in ccl 1.7. 2018-04-19T07:21:04Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:22:16Z dyht joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:25:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:27:36Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:29:05Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:31:40Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:33:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:38:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:42:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:43:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:47:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:48:32Z TMA: rme: oh, I never knew. I have an old 1.6 sitting in a directory transferred from an old 32-bit XP system and I tried to run it. 2018-04-19T07:48:42Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:48:45Z TMA: rme: thanks for the addition 2018-04-19T07:49:19Z schweers: TMA: out of curiosity: why do you run a recent OS in 32-bit mode? 2018-04-19T07:49:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:50:09Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:50:09Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T07:54:12Z frgo joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:55:18Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T07:55:35Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:57:30Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-19T07:57:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-19T07:58:04Z theemacsshibe[m]: afternoon beach! 2018-04-19T07:58:31Z shrdlu68: Good morning! 2018-04-19T08:02:17Z schweers: Good morning beach! 2018-04-19T08:02:28Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:03:01Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:03:06Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T08:07:14Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T08:10:30Z TMA: schweers: I do not. I ran XP in 32 bit mode, I run everything in 64 bits since. I would return to 32-bit mode on low memory devices like low-end netbooks though. 2018-04-19T08:11:45Z TMA: It is wasteful to use eight bytes for pointers when you have 2 gigs total memory. 2018-04-19T08:11:56Z schweers: okay, that explains. I was wondering how windows 10 would perform with a maximum memory of ... 3GB? I know that 4GB or close to that are possible, but if I remember correctly, windows has a weird limit on 32 bit systems. 2018-04-19T08:12:34Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:12:43Z schweers: It sure is, but then again, I was thinking about running windows 10, which -- I presume -- needs lots of memory just to boot. 2018-04-19T08:13:54Z flip214: TMA: but having more registers in 64bit-mode might mean less memory needs (eg. for temporary data) and faster computation as well 2018-04-19T08:15:35Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T08:17:33Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:19:13Z TMA: flip214: that's true for arithmetic-intensive workloads. I guess most of what I do is data traversing, not number crunching 2018-04-19T08:22:44Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:26:41Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T08:28:35Z MasouDa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T08:29:09Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:29:35Z hajovonta: hi all 2018-04-19T08:30:01Z shka: hello 2018-04-19T08:31:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:31:41Z MasouDa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T08:32:14Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T08:32:35Z aeth: The specifics of Lisp complicate 32v64 bit further. e.g. larger fixnums and unboxed single-floats 2018-04-19T08:32:43Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-19T08:32:52Z MasouDa quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T08:36:38Z jack_rabbit: schweers, windows 32-bit (IIRC) reserved ~1GB of address space for kernel stuff, so only 3GB available to user programs. 2018-04-19T08:37:26Z schweers: I thought there was something else, but I may be wrong. Not my main platform anyway ;) 2018-04-19T08:45:35Z dyht quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T08:57:46Z l1x joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:00:49Z flip214: TMA: still, being able to hold much more data (eg. pointers!) in CPU registers might help, not only when doing arithmetic. 2018-04-19T09:01:24Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-19T09:01:43Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:01:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:04:26Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:21:06Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:23:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:24:35Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:24:59Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:26:57Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:26:57Z hajovonta1 is now known as hajovonta 2018-04-19T09:32:22Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:32:47Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:36:30Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:38:37Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:41:44Z drastik__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:42:20Z nowhereman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T09:42:41Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:43:54Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:44:18Z drastik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T09:47:19Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T09:47:38Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:48:24Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:49:19Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:50:20Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:50:49Z drastik__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:52:01Z drastik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T09:52:20Z hajovonta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T09:52:34Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:52:54Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:53:11Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:54:37Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:56:12Z hlavaty: hi i have a fileSystems."/var/lib/foo" entry in configuration.nix. the disk failed and now on boot the machine goes into rescue mode. how do i disable the disk so that the machine starts normally again and i can ssh in an upload and activate new configuration? 2018-04-19T09:56:19Z drastik__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:56:19Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:56:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-19T09:57:05Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:57:35Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T09:59:37Z hlavaty: ah sorry wrong channel 2018-04-19T10:00:33Z hajovonta1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:01:02Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:04:08Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:04:29Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:07:32Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:07:56Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:10:41Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:12:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T10:13:21Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:13:22Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:14:47Z wetha joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:15:09Z TMA: flip214: I refuse to take position on that matter when I have no data. I am saying I can pack twice as many conses into the same amount of memory. I do not have performance data to tell, whether it will be faster. the execution speed is nowadays usually severely constrained by the memory access time (that's why beach's generic function dispatch scheme that removes one memory access is so awesome) 2018-04-19T10:16:08Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-19T10:16:28Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:16:53Z TMA: flip214: so I guess, it might be faster for some workloads. your guess of the registers helping might be better or worse than mine. without data there is nothing we can do to tell them appart 2018-04-19T10:17:05Z TMA: *apart (?) 2018-04-19T10:17:16Z wetha quit 2018-04-19T10:17:42Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:20:46Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:21:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:23:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:26:51Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:32:10Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T10:36:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:37:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:45:42Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-04-19T10:47:54Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-19T10:51:40Z makomo: how can i define a function in a different package if i want to do it within a file which has a different package in (in-package ...) on the top? 2018-04-19T10:52:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:52:05Z makomo: i tried using (in-package) right before the defun (and then again to switch back). i've also tried rebinding *package*. none worked 2018-04-19T10:52:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:52:26Z makomo: it always defines the function within the package that's at the top of the file 2018-04-19T10:52:36Z Shinmera: (defun foo::bar ..) 2018-04-19T10:52:37Z makomo: is this due to slime/emacs or? 2018-04-19T10:53:14Z makomo: oh, a double colon 2018-04-19T10:53:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:53:30Z Shinmera: If the symbol is already exported from the other package you can also do foo:bar, of course. 2018-04-19T10:53:33Z makomo: i tried with a single colon and it failed, i guess that makes sense now 2018-04-19T10:53:35Z makomo: mhm 2018-04-19T10:53:44Z makomo: this was a fresh package without any symbols, so that's why it failed 2018-04-19T10:53:48Z makomo: Shinmera: and could you do it using (in-package)? 2018-04-19T10:53:55Z makomo: or do you maybe know the reason the above failed? 2018-04-19T10:54:05Z Shinmera: I don't know what you did, but it should work. 2018-04-19T10:54:13Z Bike: when you say "defined", do you mean slime C-c C-c 2018-04-19T10:54:28Z makomo: what exactly is bound to C-c C-c? i have different keybinds 2018-04-19T10:54:35Z makomo: actually, no i don't 2018-04-19T10:54:53Z makomo: Bike: yes 2018-04-19T10:55:03Z Bike: slime-compile-defun 2018-04-19T10:55:21Z bakkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:55:30Z Bike: i don't know how slime decides a package to read code in, it might just look for the first in-package in the file 2018-04-19T10:55:36Z makomo: i did slime-eval-defun, but it should be the same 2018-04-19T10:55:42Z Bike: i would recommend against using multiple in-packages in one file anyway 2018-04-19T10:55:46Z Shinmera: It should work even with multiple in-packages. 2018-04-19T10:55:49Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T10:55:54Z makomo: Bike: i agree, but i'm curious why it's failing 2018-04-19T10:56:00Z Shinmera: makomo: what exactly is the failure 2018-04-19T10:56:07Z Bike: well, as far as i remember it should work. 2018-04-19T10:56:10Z makomo: it doesn't define the function within the package i want it to 2018-04-19T10:56:15Z Shinmera: I'm gonna go ahead and guess it errors because of something that isn't related to the name of the function 2018-04-19T10:56:16Z makomo: but within the one that is at the top of the file 2018-04-19T10:56:30Z makomo: i.e. when i say "fail" i don't mean "it throws an error" 2018-04-19T10:56:41Z makomo: it fails to do the expected thing 2018-04-19T10:56:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T10:57:16Z Bike: quick test has it working for me. 2018-04-19T10:57:54Z Bike: as in, (in-package #:foo) (defun bar () 'foo) (in-package #:foo2) (defun bar () 'foo2), C-c C-c the last, get (foo2::bar) => foo2::foo2 2018-04-19T10:58:33Z Shinmera: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/772 2018-04-19T10:59:11Z Shinmera: So, again, I don't know what you're doing. 2018-04-19T11:00:11Z makomo: hmm, you have them as separate forms, i guess this is the "problem"? 2018-04-19T11:00:17Z makomo: i had it inside a progn 2018-04-19T11:00:20Z makomo: i.e. a single top-level form 2018-04-19T11:00:26Z Shinmera: Well duh, a form is read as a single form. 2018-04-19T11:00:31Z Bike: wait, like (progn (in-package ...) (defun ...))? 2018-04-19T11:00:35Z makomo: yeah 2018-04-19T11:00:48Z Bike: yeah that's going to read the entire progn, and use the previous in-package for it. 2018-04-19T11:01:02Z Shinmera: The reader reads only complete forms. By the time it's evaluated, and the package switch would happen, it's already read. 2018-04-19T11:01:09Z makomo: i remember the same issue i had with quicklisp, loading a library in the same form and using it, but that made sense because reading happens before evaluation 2018-04-19T11:01:20Z Shinmera: So does this, same explanation. 2018-04-19T11:01:22Z Bike: yes, that's what's happening here as well, after a fashion 2018-04-19T11:01:26Z makomo: Shinmera: oh, so the symbol that names the defun 2018-04-19T11:01:30Z Bike: not that slime actually evaluates the in-package 2018-04-19T11:01:32Z makomo: is inside the current package 2018-04-19T11:01:50Z makomo: instead of the one i want it to be in 2018-04-19T11:01:54Z makomo: ah, makes sense 2018-04-19T11:02:27Z makomo: neat, thanks Shinmera, Bike 2018-04-19T11:02:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:02:34Z Bike: you're welcome 2018-04-19T11:03:15Z Shinmera: (in-package foo) (progn (in-package bar) (defun baz ..)) is read as: (cl-user::in-package cl-user::foo) (foo::progn (foo::in-package foo::bar) (foo::defun foo::baz ..)) 2018-04-19T11:03:28Z makomo: Shinmera: mhm, it's clear now 2018-04-19T11:03:45Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T11:04:31Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:04:32Z makomo: would there still be a way to create a macro which would temporarily switch packages, evaluate a body and then switch back? 2018-04-19T11:04:49Z Shinmera: Not generally, no. 2018-04-19T11:04:55Z makomo: i see 2018-04-19T11:05:01Z Bike: no, because you read before evaluating/compiling, and macroexpansion happens during evaluation/compilation 2018-04-19T11:05:09Z makomo: right 2018-04-19T11:05:10Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:05:22Z Shinmera: A macro could do nasty things with trying to guess what the read form of a symbol was and translate it according to that 2018-04-19T11:05:34Z Shinmera: But when you read, you lose information, so it's not entirely possibly. 2018-04-19T11:05:38Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:05:43Z Shinmera: *possible 2018-04-19T11:05:53Z Bike: for the purpose of this question, i'm assuming that evil magic is prohibited by the ancient treaty 2018-04-19T11:07:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:11:11Z makomo: so the way DEFUN knows in which package to define the function is by the symbol that names the function? i.e. it doesn't use *package* directly (but this is used by the reader when interning symbols then?)? 2018-04-19T11:11:14Z smokeink: what about reader macros 2018-04-19T11:11:25Z smokeink: can they be used to do such evil things ? 2018-04-19T11:11:41Z Bike: defun doesn't know anything about packages 2018-04-19T11:11:51Z Bike: it gets a symbol as a name, it just uses that 2018-04-19T11:12:05Z makomo: oh, it just sets the function cell of the symbol 2018-04-19T11:12:28Z makomo: forgot about that 2018-04-19T11:12:42Z Bike: (defun name lambda-list ...body...) expands into `(setf (fdefinition ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list ,@body)) 2018-04-19T11:12:45Z Bike: plus complications 2018-04-19T11:12:56Z makomo: mhm 2018-04-19T11:13:16Z adlai: smokeink: lol readers can do pretty much anything unless you castrate your repl 2018-04-19T11:16:52Z makomo: an unrelated question. i made this spreadsheet-like thing where the cells in the sheet can contain arbitrary lisp code as their formulas. the code gets compiled at runtime and attached to the cell, and is run whenever the cells needs to update its value 2018-04-19T11:17:00Z makomo: well, actually, sort-of-related 2018-04-19T11:17:29Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:18:01Z makomo: while the code gets to COMPILE, it has already been read right? 2018-04-19T11:18:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:18:24Z makomo: so any (in-package) calls within COMPILE will have no effect (assuming for the moment that somehow i could provide multiple top-level forms within COMPILE) 2018-04-19T11:18:33Z tfb: makomo: yes. 2018-04-19T11:19:03Z Bike: "top-level forms" are not a relevant concept to COMPILE 2018-04-19T11:19:25Z Bike: anyway, it sounds like you're arranging the compilation yourself, so surely you can just see when you've written it to READ the code 2018-04-19T11:21:34Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:21:54Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:21:58Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:22:16Z makomo: so if i have a macro which takes lisp code and attaches it to a cell, there's no way to make this code live inside some "cell-user" package because by the time it even gets to COMPILE it has already been READ within the current package 2018-04-19T11:22:34Z Bike: well it depends on what you mean by "lisp code" 2018-04-19T11:22:51Z makomo: a lisp form 2018-04-19T11:23:00Z Bike: oh. yep. forms have already been read 2018-04-19T11:23:14Z makomo: what other case did you have in mind? 2018-04-19T11:23:37Z Bike: If you had a, like, graphical spreadsheet application like Excel, the user would input code into a cell or whatever, and then you'd have to READ it yourself 2018-04-19T11:23:45Z makomo: ah yeah, true 2018-04-19T11:23:47Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T11:23:56Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:23:57Z smokeink: but can't one define a symbol in the "cell-user" package that calls that code　(no matter from what package) ? 2018-04-19T11:23:59Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:24:26Z smokeink: makomo: what are you trying to achieve 2018-04-19T11:24:44Z Bike: generally, if the user is writing lisp code themselves though, as normal source, ikt's their responsibility to put it in the right package, you know? 2018-04-19T11:25:08Z makomo: it's just a toy spreadsheet thingy that we were supposed to make, but i went and made it in lisp and realized i could use anything as the cell's formula 2018-04-19T11:25:16Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:25:37Z smokeink: just import all symbols into that cell-user's package, make them available there 2018-04-19T11:26:22Z makomo: that wasn't my problem (if i understood what you're saying). i only wanted the code provided within the macro to live within another package 2018-04-19T11:26:41Z makomo: so i would have a "cell-user" or "cell-user-impl" thingy which would have built-in functions for these cell formulas 2018-04-19T11:26:59Z makomo: and then you can write a macro without prefixing these built-ins with "cell-user:" constantly 2018-04-19T11:27:21Z makomo: (this macro is the one that takes code and attaches it to a cell) 2018-04-19T11:27:45Z makomo: now of course, if this was a proper application, the user would input a string of lisp and i would READ it myself, etc. 2018-04-19T11:28:20Z makomo: or perhaps it would happen within a REPL too but just within the "cell-user" package 2018-04-19T11:29:35Z adlai quit (Quit: Not all who wander are lost) 2018-04-19T11:31:27Z makomo: another question -- how would you implement something to not allow the user to access any functions that aren't within cell-user, i.e. stop them from using malicious code as formulas for cells? 2018-04-19T11:31:57Z makomo: and also to not be able to use any other packages, etc.? 2018-04-19T11:32:16Z makomo: what is the general way stuff like this is done? is it even done? a separate lisp image? 2018-04-19T11:32:52Z smokeink: the "Reader Security" section https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap4.html might be of use to you 2018-04-19T11:32:54Z bakkal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:33:16Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'd probably either scan the forms before evaluating them, or have a separate interpreter. 2018-04-19T11:33:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:33:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: Using something like secure-reader helps if you don't want evil reader macros like #.(hose-my-computer) 2018-04-19T11:34:21Z cezary quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:34:36Z makomo: smokeink: i remember that, i'll reread it, thanks 2018-04-19T11:34:37Z Shinmera: For that particular problem you can just use (let ((*read-eval* NIL)) ..) 2018-04-19T11:34:43Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:35:14Z scymtym: regarding reading untrusted input securely: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Eclector is a portable, customizable reader which is slowly becoming usable as of late 2018-04-19T11:35:26Z makomo: using a separate lisp image would however break the interaction with the spreadsheet application itself? 2018-04-19T11:35:30Z hajovonta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T11:35:37Z MasouDa quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2018-04-19T11:35:44Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:38:24Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:38:31Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:38:43Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:39:06Z smokeink: no need for a separate image, just use a separate reader or scan the forms to check if there are any blacklisted symbols in it,etc 2018-04-19T11:40:04Z TMA: actually whitelisting might be more secure 2018-04-19T11:40:12Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:40:20Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:40:20Z hajovonta1 is now known as hajovonta 2018-04-19T11:42:26Z mfiano: #lispgames is hosting the annual Lisp Game Jam which begins in about 10 hours. As of now there are over 100 participants this year. If anyone here wanted to participate, you still have time to sign up: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018 2018-04-19T11:43:33Z makomo: smokeink: ok, thanks 2018-04-19T11:44:33Z mfiano: Sorry, 16 hours. Apparently my hwclock is skewed to hell. 2018-04-19T11:45:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:47:28Z adlai joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:47:57Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:49:05Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T11:51:56Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-19T11:57:25Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T11:57:26Z giraffe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T11:59:47Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:02:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:02:46Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T12:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:06:44Z itruslove joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:08:45Z smokeink quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T12:10:26Z MasouDa quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2018-04-19T12:10:56Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:11:19Z giraffe joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:15:36Z Bike is now known as Bicyclidine 2018-04-19T12:23:12Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:33:40Z papachan joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:36:55Z jcowan: the x32 ABI is designed to deal with low-memory 64-bit systems; you get 32-bit pointers but everything else is like x86_64. 2018-04-19T12:37:58Z jcowan: AFAIK it exists only in Linux ATM. It can provide improved performance by keeping more things in cache. 2018-04-19T12:42:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:43:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:44:51Z White__Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:46:39Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-19T12:47:07Z papachan joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:48:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:49:28Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:54:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:55:29Z SenasOzys__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T12:55:56Z milanj__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T12:56:15Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:56:44Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T12:56:54Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T13:00:30Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:02:04Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:03:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:04:08Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:04:30Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:05:37Z zbir quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T13:06:00Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:06:58Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:09:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:10:29Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:14:12Z nirved joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:15:50Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:16:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:17:11Z beach: Bike: Are y'all back home? 2018-04-19T13:17:23Z Bike: yes. well, now i'm at work. 2018-04-19T13:17:55Z beach: I see, yes. I just meant the side of the Atlantic. 2018-04-19T13:18:05Z Bike: mhm. 2018-04-19T13:21:20Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:22:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:23:52Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:24:06Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:24:28Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:24:57Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:24:57Z hajovonta1 is now known as hajovonta 2018-04-19T13:25:38Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:25:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:26:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:27:32Z drastik joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:28:12Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:28:51Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:30:09Z drastik_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:30:16Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:30:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:31:09Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-19T13:31:31Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:32:23Z zacts joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:36:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:36:53Z drastik_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:39:56Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:41:53Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:43:16Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:43:57Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:44:57Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:45:00Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:47:45Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:51:02Z schweers: beach: I take it you’re referring to ELS being over? 2018-04-19T13:51:16Z schweers: if so, how was it? 2018-04-19T13:51:53Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T13:54:27Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:54:28Z beach: It is. And it was excellent! 2018-04-19T13:54:39Z schweers: good to hear :) 2018-04-19T13:55:27Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:55:27Z johnvonneumann quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T13:55:37Z schweers: eww ... entering the search term "els 2018" into youtube seems to result in rap battles or something 2018-04-19T13:55:48Z smokeink joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:56:06Z beach: Try "european lisp symposium". 2018-04-19T13:56:10Z schweers: just did 2018-04-19T13:56:29Z schweers: nothing from this year (yet?), but the results are related to what I wanted to find \o/ 2018-04-19T13:56:43Z beach: And the videos are not going to be available yet. 2018-04-19T13:58:11Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T13:59:06Z beach: Plus, the most important part is (as usual) the discussions with other participants. Not the talks. 2018-04-19T13:59:27Z schweers: I guess so, but I know that those are not going to be captured on tape ;) 2018-04-19T13:59:48Z schweers: it was a two day conference? 2018-04-19T13:59:52Z beach: Right. I am encouraging you to attend next year (Genoa). 2018-04-19T14:00:00Z beach: Yes, Monday and Tuesday. 2018-04-19T14:00:16Z schweers: I wondered: how’s the ratio from audience to speakers? 2018-04-19T14:00:48Z beach: You can count the speakers from the program. I think there might have been 90 or so participants. 2018-04-19T14:01:15Z schweers: So it’s not weird to be there and not be a speaker. 2018-04-19T14:01:25Z beach: Not at all. 2018-04-19T14:01:30Z beach: It would be the norm. 2018-04-19T14:01:49Z Bike: like me! 2018-04-19T14:01:54Z beach: Maybe 15 speakers tops, plus the lightning talks. 2018-04-19T14:01:57Z Bike: though my card said i was a speaker for some reason. 2018-04-19T14:02:21Z beach: Well, they didn't know which of several coauthors would give the talk. 2018-04-19T14:02:27Z Bike: yeah probably. 2018-04-19T14:02:46Z Xof: you should send a bug report to the author of the card writing software 2018-04-19T14:03:08Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:03:36Z schweers: it doesn’t say where it will be next year on the website yet, or am I missing something? 2018-04-19T14:03:37Z rme: Bike: It's a pity that I didn't get to meet you in person. 2018-04-19T14:04:09Z rme: Or did I and I forgot? That would be a typically embarrassing thing for me to do. 2018-04-19T14:04:29Z Xof: it's only been two days and I have forgotten most people's names :-( 2018-04-19T14:04:38Z Xof: blogging is a challenge 2018-04-19T14:04:43Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:05:03Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T14:05:18Z Bike: schweers: another benefit of going is learning where next year's is in person 2018-04-19T14:05:31Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:05:32Z Bike: rme: i'm terrible with names, faces, and talking, so 2018-04-19T14:06:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:06:45Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:06:53Z Shinmera: Integrating the name tags into the rest of els-web is on the to do 2018-04-19T14:07:21Z beach: The tags should also mention IRC handles. 2018-04-19T14:07:33Z Shinmera: Yes, we can add stuff like that 2018-04-19T14:07:53Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:08:05Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-19T14:08:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:08:38Z beach: Bike: Your last ELS talk was great. 2018-04-19T14:12:17Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:12:27Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:12:37Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:14:11Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:14:29Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:14:29Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:14:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:15:02Z Guest23468 is now known as xristos 2018-04-19T14:15:07Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2018-04-19T14:15:07Z xristos joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:16:17Z Xlet42X joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:16:29Z Bike: presenting i can do okay 2018-04-19T14:16:40Z beach: Yeah, definitely. 2018-04-19T14:16:43Z Bike: i still think i was kind of dry, but some people liked it well enough so i guess it's fine 2018-04-19T14:17:00Z beach: Yes, it was. 2018-04-19T14:17:42Z beach: heisig had an interesting evaluation of my inlining talk. Something like "that wasn't too bad, given the boring subject". :) 2018-04-19T14:18:15Z scymtym: Bike: i watched the recording (last year's, i mean) yesterday and i liked it as well 2018-04-19T14:18:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:19:30Z Bike: people were saying interesting stuff about your talk too. ideas for when to actually be partial 2018-04-19T14:19:32Z rme: haha I can hear heisig's voice saying that 2018-04-19T14:19:32Z Bike: scymtym: thanks 2018-04-19T14:21:02Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:21:28Z Shinmera: I would have liked some more insightful feedback on my talk, but given that I screwed up I guess I couldn't expect too much 2018-04-19T14:21:28Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:21:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:22:02Z Bike: i really think you're beating yourself up too much about that. "but now, you see, YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING MY SOFTWARE THIS ENTIRE TIME!!" is pretty powerful 2018-04-19T14:22:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:22:46Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:23:01Z Bike: probably there weren't a lot of game programmers in the room, though. i barely know graphics stuff 2018-04-19T14:23:36Z Shinmera: It's such a dumb thing to happen though. Funnily enough if I had used SAL9000's machine it wouldn't have happened since I did have all the textures on my memory stick copy, but not my local git clone. 2018-04-19T14:23:47Z Shinmera: Yeah, I guess. 2018-04-19T14:25:44Z zbir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T14:25:45Z Shinmera: Though that makes me wonder what area would have had the most representation in the audience 2018-04-19T14:26:34Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:26:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:27:33Z scymtym: CL implementors? 2018-04-19T14:28:18Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-19T14:29:29Z Bike: ha, maybe. 2018-04-19T14:30:23Z jackdaniel: fyi: sea is still beautiful here :-) 2018-04-19T14:30:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:31:48Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:32:02Z Xof: lisp implementors present (that I noticed): rme, me, drmeister, dougk, Rajesh Jayaprakash, Kevin Layer 2018-04-19T14:32:43Z Xof: that might be 7% of the attendees, if you count me anyway. 6% if you don't :) 2018-04-19T14:32:51Z drmeister: Howdy 2018-04-19T14:32:53Z Bike: take that, jackdaniel 2018-04-19T14:32:59Z Xof: oh no wait, Martin Simmons was there too 2018-04-19T14:33:01Z jackdaniel: huh, likewise Bike ;-) 2018-04-19T14:33:23Z Xof: but actually I think implementor density has been higher in past years 2018-04-19T14:33:24Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:34:05Z drmeister: Yeah - you can toss Bike into that list. :-) 2018-04-19T14:34:51Z Xof: see, that's how out of date I am 2018-04-19T14:35:02Z Xof: isolated in my little corner of the world 2018-04-19T14:35:51Z Xof: problem is, "lisp implementors" is a poorly-defined set 2018-04-19T14:35:54Z Xof: we are all lisp implementors 2018-04-19T14:35:58Z drmeister: No, no, no problem. 2018-04-19T14:36:11Z Xof: some of us just implement stuff that other people have already done the hard work of defining :-) 2018-04-19T14:38:35Z zbir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T14:40:39Z Bike: on the subject of implementing, actual question: i asked didier about his talk and i don't think either of us could come up with a reason a user would want to subclass method-combination or even define methods on compute-effective-method, because the regular method combination mechanism already allows arbitrary code 2018-04-19T14:40:53Z Bike: he wanted to do that multiple-combos-for-one-gf thing, but that's kind of a different direction 2018-04-19T14:40:58Z Bike: so... anybody have any idea? 2018-04-19T14:41:45Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T14:41:54Z flip214: for a method-combination that is not already supported? 2018-04-19T14:42:04Z Bike: i mean, there's define-method-combination 2018-04-19T14:42:41Z Bike: as one of probably not very many who's actually defined their own long form method combination, i thought it was adequate 2018-04-19T14:44:31Z flip214: well, how about a method combination that sums up all only _positive_ results of all the methods? 2018-04-19T14:45:26Z flip214: yeah, you could use 'append and do an explicit reduce for the list, but TIMTOWTDI 2018-04-19T14:45:35Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:45:47Z Bike: i don't... i don't know what that initialism means 2018-04-19T14:46:09Z schweers: bike: there is more than one way to do it 2018-04-19T14:46:17Z Bike: oh 2018-04-19T14:46:32Z Bike: well i don't think i understand how specialization would help with that 2018-04-19T14:47:18Z Bike: you'd just have your methods expand into (let ((#:sum 0)) (let ((#:mresult (call-method ...))) (when (plusp #:mresult) (incf #:sum mresult))) ...more methods...) 2018-04-19T14:47:46Z Bike: since the built in mechanism lets you do arbitrary code, i don't see the use, i guess 2018-04-19T14:48:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:48:17Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T14:48:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:50:01Z Bike: this is a pretty fuckin obscure question, i realize 2018-04-19T14:51:32Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T14:51:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:52:14Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:53:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:53:53Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:54:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:55:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T14:55:51Z Bindler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T14:58:27Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T14:59:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T14:59:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:00:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:02:51Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:03:26Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:03:37Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:04:30Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:04:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:05:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:06:12Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T15:06:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:06:56Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:07:22Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T15:07:38Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:07:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:08:02Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:11:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:11:22Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:11:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:11:37Z rippa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:12:22Z Duns_Scrotus is now known as xXxYUNGKIRITO420 2018-04-19T15:12:31Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T15:12:50Z lyding quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:12:56Z xXxYUNGKIRITO420 is now known as xYUNGKIRITO420x 2018-04-19T15:13:22Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:13:26Z Xof: I reserve the right to think about it some more 2018-04-19T15:14:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T15:14:55Z Bike: naturally 2018-04-19T15:15:10Z Bike: i am going to try to fix things so method combination redefinition works cleanly, at least 2018-04-19T15:15:13Z Bike: not that that's much of a priority 2018-04-19T15:17:02Z schweers: Bike: which implementation are you working on? 2018-04-19T15:17:03Z himmAllRIght joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:17:46Z himmAllRIght quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T15:19:05Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:20:02Z jackdaniel: he works with drmeister and beach on clasp/cleavir 2018-04-19T15:21:42Z pfdietz2: one day that will be ready for me to play with 2018-04-19T15:21:46Z schweers: nice 2018-04-19T15:22:07Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T15:22:17Z Shinmera: pfdietz2: People are still wrangling with the existing ANSI tests. 2018-04-19T15:22:57Z pfdietz2: Need to add co:stab 2018-04-19T15:23:15Z pfdietz2: cl:standard 2018-04-19T15:23:33Z pfdietz2: to those. 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2018-04-19T17:42:42Z Araly: hello, I was wondering, how do you run something written in lisp outside of a repl, once compiled for example 2018-04-19T17:42:51Z Araly is now known as araly 2018-04-19T17:42:55Z Xach: araly: there are many options. 2018-04-19T17:43:16Z Xach: araly: some options involve running a binary file like any other program. 2018-04-19T17:43:29Z drastik quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T17:43:34Z Xach: araly: some options involve turning your lisp program into a kind of script that runs like a shell or perl or ruby script. 2018-04-19T17:43:45Z araly: I see a .fasl next to my .lisp files, I thought that might be the executable or something 2018-04-19T17:43:53Z Xach: i like the binary file way, if i have to, but prefer to work within the repl whenever feasible. 2018-04-19T17:44:08Z Xach: araly: .fasl is a compiled file, but one that is meant to quickly load into lisp, rather than run directly. 2018-04-19T17:44:25Z araly: okay, I can't seem to run it from the terminal anyways 2018-04-19T17:44:43Z Xach: repl functions are compiled and fast and have a much richer interactive experience in general. 2018-04-19T17:45:04Z Xach: you pass objects and return objects, rather than pass strings and stream inputs and receive strings and stream outputs. 2018-04-19T17:45:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T17:45:14Z Xach: and you can intercede more easily when things go wrong 2018-04-19T17:45:29Z Xach: but since i don't want to interact and intercede from e.g. cron, that's when i use a compiled binary. 2018-04-19T17:46:20Z araly: I'm learning some lisp on my own, and I thought it could be interesting to try and re write a discord.js bot I have in lisp using lispcord, a library I found. I can run the discord.js bot in a server, as it's nodejs, I thought how was I going to make that work in lisp 2018-04-19T17:46:47Z beach: araly: Creating an executable is something you need to do one single time very late in a project, so you almost never have to do it. 2018-04-19T17:47:12Z beach: araly: In particular, if you are learning Common Lisp, that is definitely not the way to run the programs you develop. 2018-04-19T17:48:30Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T17:48:42Z araly: beach: so should I not write a bot or another program that is supposed to run on a server in common lisp ? 2018-04-19T17:49:06Z beach: araly: That is not what I am saying. 2018-04-19T17:49:30Z beach: araly: I am saying that it is best to test most of your functions, not the entire program, interactively. 2018-04-19T17:49:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T17:50:14Z beach: araly: Since you can run incomplete Common Lisp programs, you don't have this idea that you need the full code and link it before you can run it. 2018-04-19T17:50:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T17:50:28Z araly: beach: oh, while theyt are developed okay. but that would be the way once they are finished, or is there another better way ? 2018-04-19T17:51:19Z beach: araly: What Xach said I guess. But since you are still learning, you won't need it for some time. 2018-04-19T17:52:02Z araly: beach: sure okay. While I'm at it, do you know if it's possible to use a bitmap font in emacs ? 2018-04-19T17:52:34Z beach: araly: I don't, and that would be a question for #emacs rather than #lisp, which is dedicated to Common Lisp. 2018-04-19T17:52:53Z logand joined #lisp 2018-04-19T17:55:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:00:18Z araly quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-19T18:00:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:02:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:02:41Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T18:02:45Z araly joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:03:08Z araly quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T18:05:02Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:05:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:06:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:08:47Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:09:23Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:12:05Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:12:30Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:13:21Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:15:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:15:59Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:17:27Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:19:25Z Ukari: how to enable hint when edit .lisp file like hint in slime repl when use emacs? 2018-04-19T18:19:31Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:19:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:19:33Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-19T18:19:51Z phoe: Ukari: which exactly hint? company-mode? 2018-04-19T18:20:37Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:20:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:20:59Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-19T18:21:29Z Ukari: for example, when i input cffi: and TAB, symbols in cffi package will show in another frame 2018-04-19T18:22:07Z shka_: it works for me out of the box 2018-04-19T18:22:12Z shka_: are you in the slime mode? 2018-04-19T18:22:22Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:22:22Z slyrus1 is now known as slyrus 2018-04-19T18:22:41Z slyrus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:22:47Z Ukari: shka_, yes 2018-04-19T18:22:48Z Bike: alt tab. 2018-04-19T18:22:55Z Bike: or ESC tab 2018-04-19T18:23:01Z nirved: Ukari: in .lisp file i use ctrl-tab 2018-04-19T18:24:40Z Xach: It was very nice to meet #lisp people for the first time or see them again at ELS. 2018-04-19T18:24:56Z phoe: Xach: I have exactly the same feeling. 2018-04-19T18:25:28Z Shinmera: Yes. 2018-04-19T18:25:44Z Xach: I am hoping that after perhaps 48 to 72 days of recovery my urge to hack created by ELS will be equaled by my energy to hack 2018-04-19T18:25:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:25:58Z Ukari: thanks 2018-04-19T18:26:32Z slyrus1 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T18:26:35Z Shinmera: Fortunately I'm not very tired, but I am tied up with non-lisp stuff. 2018-04-19T18:27:14Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:27:27Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:27:45Z phoe: Xach: 72 days is a long time 2018-04-19T18:28:22Z Xach: my earnest suggestion is never to get old 2018-04-19T18:28:23Z nirved: ops, it's ctrl-c tab 2018-04-19T18:30:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:30:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:31:39Z easye: Xach: is there no longer a mailing list to discuss Quicklisp related items? seems to be retired, right? 2018-04-19T18:32:20Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:32:23Z Xach: easye: it is low-volume but not retired 2018-04-19T18:32:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:32:37Z Xach: It is the best place for email discussion 2018-04-19T18:32:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:33:09Z easye: Alright. I'll try to move along the :DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON problems via a mesage there. 2018-04-19T18:33:24Z Xach: Well, problems are known 2018-04-19T18:33:37Z Xach: they are not installed automatically 2018-04-19T18:34:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:35:38Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:36:10Z makomo: does anyone know when the ELS videos will be up? 2018-04-19T18:36:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:37:20Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:38:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:39:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:39:35Z beach: makomo: That is very hard to say, even for the person in charge of doing it. It depends a lot on the time at their disposal. 2018-04-19T18:40:20Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-19T18:40:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:42:37Z makomo: i guess so. i just went to check when it was uploaded in the previous years -- after 20 days in 2016, after almost 2 months in 2017 :^/ 2018-04-19T18:42:47Z rme: for fastest results, attend the symposium :-) 2018-04-19T18:43:29Z makomo: heh :-) 2018-04-19T18:44:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:46:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:46:25Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-19T18:46:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:47:03Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:48:15Z Shinmera: A better in some respects and worse in other respects version of my talk has been up for a while at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od6WI7JIJcQ 2018-04-19T18:48:23Z siraben`` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:48:48Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-19T18:49:55Z slyrus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:50:09Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:51:00Z siraben` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:51:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T18:51:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:52:38Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-19T18:52:59Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:54:01Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T18:54:46Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T18:57:05Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:00:26Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:06:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:07:14Z Ven` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:07:14Z Ven`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T19:07:57Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:08:05Z cezary quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T19:09:03Z Ven`` quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T19:10:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:11:58Z Ven` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:12:33Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:14:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:15:36Z makomo: Shinmera: i've watched that before ELS even begun :-) 2018-04-19T19:15:45Z mejja joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:17:49Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:22:36Z Kevslinger: What are the biggest pros and cons of programming in Lisp? Is that a reasonable question to ask? 2018-04-19T19:23:08Z phoe: Kevslinger: you start being a weirdo to some people 2018-04-19T19:23:23Z shka_: phoe: you were always a weirdo 2018-04-19T19:23:29Z phoe: see? 2018-04-19T19:23:36Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you are not obligated to reveal that you program in Lisp 2018-04-19T19:23:46Z shka_: but since you program in lisp, you are weirdo to other weirdos 2018-04-19T19:24:02Z phoe: also, the biggest cons I have ever seen was four words long 2018-04-19T19:24:11Z shka_: money 2018-04-19T19:24:19Z phoe: I think it had two words of tag or something and then two words for two pointers to its car and cdr 2018-04-19T19:24:22Z shka_: not to much, and not easy to grab 2018-04-19T19:24:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-19T19:24:56Z MichaelRaskin: Do not program exclusively in X. True for Lisp, too. 2018-04-19T19:24:59Z shka_: libs quality varies, sometimes "obvious" stuff is missing 2018-04-19T19:26:24Z shka_: pros: some decent libs are present, multithreading with system threads (and lparallel), decent performance most of the time, not that many libs written in C 2018-04-19T19:26:42Z Kevslinger: phoe: Boooooooooooooooooo 2018-04-19T19:26:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:26:50Z cgay: Kinda depends on what you're comparing to also. 2018-04-19T19:27:04Z MichaelRaskin: You can mix and match various paradigms in your code; you might not want to have code like that, but you could gain some perspective. 2018-04-19T19:27:15Z MichaelRaskin: Also depends on the goals… 2018-04-19T19:27:18Z shka_: fairly easy to debug, language is powerful (CLOS, macros) 2018-04-19T19:27:35Z shka_: does not force into one style 2018-04-19T19:27:47Z phoe: pros: you end up with a very pleasant hacking&prototyping platform that CL is, when you use it properly (interactive environment like slime, debugger, inspector, stepper) 2018-04-19T19:27:55Z Shinmera: Kevslinger: Pro: I like using it. Con: None of my friends do. 2018-04-19T19:28:01Z shka_: and there is some nice literature using around lisp family as a whole 2018-04-19T19:28:23Z Kevslinger: Shinmera: I have faith in Till. I think he'll learn to like the language 2018-04-19T19:28:27Z shka_: that would be it i think 2018-04-19T19:28:30Z phoe: Shinmera: +1 2018-04-19T19:29:23Z MichaelRaskin: Weaklings. I once converted a Python job into a Common Lisp job, and afterwards my direct superior sometimes uses Racket for isolated projects. 2018-04-19T19:30:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:30:26Z shka_: teach me master… 2018-04-19T19:30:37Z phoe: > Weaklings. 2018-04-19T19:30:50Z phoe: gods damn you, I spat my food all over my keyboard from laughter 2018-04-19T19:31:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:31:37Z shka_: one lisp man 2018-04-19T19:32:09Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it helps to have externally imposed deadlines that make no sense 2018-04-19T19:32:28Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:32:53Z MichaelRaskin: That means that as long as you produce reliable correct code, nobody dares to discuss style. 2018-04-19T19:33:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:33:29Z MichaelRaskin: Then you show why writing Python as if it were a Lisp makes some part of the system faster to beat into submission in a tense situation 2018-04-19T19:34:07Z ebrasca: Hi 2018-04-19T19:34:11Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:34:50Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T19:34:59Z phoe: Hey ebrasca 2018-04-19T19:35:32Z Wojciech_K quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-19T19:36:11Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:37:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:39:51Z dtornabene: MichaelRaskin #notallheroswearcapes 2018-04-19T19:40:13Z MichaelRaskin: Then it becomes clear that the amount of local libraries needed for a system is high enough that language is the least of the worries… 2018-04-19T19:42:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:47:07Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:47:58Z ebrasca: phoe: How was your ELS? 2018-04-19T19:49:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:49:59Z phoe: ebrasca: it was amazing. 2018-04-19T19:50:18Z phoe: I need to sleep now. See you! 2018-04-19T19:51:46Z Xach puts his phoe calligraphy in a place of honor at his workstation 2018-04-19T19:51:54Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:52:02Z djinni` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T19:52:09Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:53:03Z phoe: omg 2018-04-19T19:53:05Z phoe blushes 2018-04-19T19:53:58Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:54:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:54:30Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T19:56:09Z SenasOzys__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-19T19:56:09Z djinni` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:58:34Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T19:58:53Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T19:59:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:02:54Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:04:07Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:05:13Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:05:25Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:05:42Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:05:43Z elderK quit (Changing host) 2018-04-19T20:05:43Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:05:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:06:16Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:08:38Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:09:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:10:08Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:10:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:11:00Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:11:19Z fourier quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-19T20:11:19Z jmercouris: hi, Shinmera has some package for building binaries IIRC, but I can't remember the name 2018-04-19T20:11:21Z jmercouris: can someone please remind me? 2018-04-19T20:11:46Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:11:47Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:12:41Z jmercouris: nvm, found it: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy 2018-04-19T20:13:43Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:13:48Z iqubic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T20:14:39Z MichaelRaskin: By the way, ASDF does have some support for creating executables built-in 2018-04-19T20:15:27Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:15:47Z Shinmera: that's what deploy uses. 2018-04-19T20:16:20Z jmercouris: MichaelRaskin: Thanks for the tip, I know about that already :) 2018-04-19T20:16:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-19T20:20:29Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T20:20:43Z jasom: My preferred method is just a thin wrapper around uiop:dump-image 2018-04-19T20:20:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:21:31Z jmercouris: I just wanted something to make a .app bundle on OSX that wouldn't require any work from myself 2018-04-19T20:21:35Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-19T20:21:56Z jmercouris: I remembered that Nic's tool supports that 2018-04-19T20:22:00Z jasom: oh, .app bundles are harder. I usually punt and use automator to launch my script :) 2018-04-19T20:22:12Z jmercouris: jasom: punt? 2018-04-19T20:22:22Z jasom: jmercouris: another way of saying "give up" 2018-04-19T20:22:24Z jmercouris: you make an applescript to launch the exectuable? 2018-04-19T20:22:27Z jmercouris: oh, I see 2018-04-19T20:22:28Z MichaelRaskin: kick away the problem 2018-04-19T20:22:50Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:23:09Z jasom: jmercouris: yeah, it's pretty easy and you can drop the executable in the .app bundle that automator makes (I think it's called automator, I stopped using macs much about a year ago) 2018-04-19T20:23:34Z Shinmera: Deploy's app bundle mechanism should work straight away. 2018-04-19T20:23:44Z Shinmera: At least it did when I last tested it... 2018-04-19T20:23:51Z jmercouris: Well, I'll let you know if it fails 2018-04-19T20:23:52Z Shinmera: Who knows what apple decided to break in the meantime 2018-04-19T20:23:59Z jasom: Shinmera: that's good to know 2018-04-19T20:24:01Z jmercouris: Apple doesn't just randomly change their APIs 2018-04-19T20:24:09Z jmercouris: unless you are using private API 2018-04-19T20:24:11Z Shinmera: Seems to me they do 2018-04-19T20:24:12Z jmercouris: in which case, reap what you sow 2018-04-19T20:24:14Z phoe: they merely randomly deprecate it 2018-04-19T20:24:30Z jmercouris: Shinmera: You don't even use a Mac 2018-04-19T20:24:34Z jasom switched to making web apps which solved a lot of deployment issues 2018-04-19T20:24:41Z MichaelRaskin: It seems not random, but carefully planned to inflict the optimal amount of pain 2018-04-19T20:24:43Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I do though 2018-04-19T20:24:49Z jmercouris: Your main machine is not a Mac 2018-04-19T20:25:00Z jmercouris: Unless you happen to be running a Linux VM every time you stream 2018-04-19T20:25:06Z jmercouris: in which case, I take back everything I said :D 2018-04-19T20:25:08Z phoe: why does it matter 2018-04-19T20:25:10Z Shinmera: I don't see how that invalidates what I've experienced 2018-04-19T20:25:20Z jmercouris: I'm suggesting he isn't *that* much of an expert on Apple API 2018-04-19T20:25:28Z fourier: any shell glob filename matching implementation for CL around? 2018-04-19T20:25:30Z jasom: No *true* mac user would complain about Apple's APIs 2018-04-19T20:25:33Z Shinmera: I'm not, but programs randomly break between versions and it fucking pisses me off 2018-04-19T20:25:46Z Shinmera: It's a waste of my god damn time that there's no compatibility 2018-04-19T20:25:49Z jmercouris: I think it angers all of us :) 2018-04-19T20:25:54Z jasom: At least it's better than most linux distros 2018-04-19T20:26:00Z jmercouris: Rosetta was supported for many many many years before it was dropped off 2018-04-19T20:26:11Z jmercouris: I think the compatibility is quite good, I can launch applications from 5-10 years ago 2018-04-19T20:26:18Z jasom: fourier: there is one buried in plush, but it's not factored out 2018-04-19T20:26:24Z jmercouris: through several major versions, but anyways ,this is offtopic 2018-04-19T20:26:36Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I can't even compile Portacle on 10.10 and have it run on 10.12 2018-04-19T20:26:51Z jmercouris: Compile on 10.12 targeting 10.10, and you should have no problems 2018-04-19T20:26:58Z fourier: jasom: thanks will have a look 2018-04-19T20:27:21Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp#L746 that turns a glob into input for cl-ppcre 2018-04-19T20:28:16Z krelix_ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:29:06Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-19T20:29:14Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:29:52Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-19T20:30:03Z richardjdare joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:30:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:30:17Z fourier: yep just to convert wildcards to cl-pprcre regexp i have already, im more interested with proper implementation taking care of whenever it has trailing /, ** for recursive subdirectory search etc 2018-04-19T20:31:02Z jasom: Ah it doesn't implement ** since that's not in posix and plush was just implementing posix 2018-04-19T20:31:53Z jasom: and plush splits the path into directories before matching the PCRE, so that implementation is probably useless for you 2018-04-19T20:31:58Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:32:52Z xYUNGKIRITO420x is now known as Duns_Scrotus 2018-04-19T20:33:24Z fourier: thanks anyway, will have a look for ideas 2018-04-19T20:34:28Z fourier: btw dat readme :) 2018-04-19T20:34:57Z kolb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:35:20Z jmercouris: Ah, yes, very Lispy readme 2018-04-19T20:35:33Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-19T20:35:38Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-19T20:36:07Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:38:02Z jasom: hurray for quickproject :) 2018-04-19T20:38:15Z jasom: I wrote plush for didactic purposes, not with the intent that anyone might use it 2018-04-19T20:38:41Z jasom: It's up on github primarily because it's easier to post links to code than to pastebin bits and pieces when it comes up in conversation 2018-04-19T20:39:35Z jmercouris: Yeah, it's good especially to help provide context when linking snippets 2018-04-19T20:42:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:48:34Z borei joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:49:28Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-19T20:49:42Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:50:03Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:50:15Z TCZ is now known as scheme_rzadzi 2018-04-19T20:52:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-19T20:55:13Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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if i do (defmethod test (&key ((:foo bar))) bar), (swank-backend:arglist 'test) => (&KEY ((:FOO BAR))), but it displays in the minibuffer as &key foo 2018-04-20T03:13:11Z himmAllRight17 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:13:36Z himmAllRight17 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:19:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:23:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:24:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:24:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:27:22Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:28:02Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:29:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:29:45Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T03:45:45Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-20T03:46:18Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:55:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T03:55:23Z mejja quit (Quit: mejja) 2018-04-20T03:57:56Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T04:00:39Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T04:04:32Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-20T04:04:48Z iqubic` left #lisp 2018-04-20T04:05:29Z iqubic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T04:10:11Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T04:12:52Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-20T04:16:08Z iqubic quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-20T04:34:04Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-20T04:36:46Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T04:48:01Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T04:49:24Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T04:50:47Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T04:52:20Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T04:52:43Z druidgreeneyes quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-20T04:53:09Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-20T04:53:36Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-20T04:59:13Z slyrus_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T05:00:31Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T05:00:32Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T05:00:56Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:01:02Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:02:54Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:07:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:07:28Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T05:08:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:08:32Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:09:49Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:11:45Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:11:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:14:31Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:16:23Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:17:44Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:19:15Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:19:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:22:02Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T05:23:39Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:25:02Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:25:13Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-20T05:26:39Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-20T05:28:59Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T05:29:25Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:30:15Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:30:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:31:04Z surya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:33:01Z SaganMan: Morning peeps 2018-04-20T05:33:20Z SaganMan: beach: how did the lisp symposium go? 2018-04-20T05:33:43Z beach: Very well. 2018-04-20T05:34:08Z beach: Good presentations, high attendance, great discussions. 2018-04-20T05:34:46Z SaganMan: beach: nice, is it online somewhere? 2018-04-20T05:34:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:35:24Z beach: The videos will take some time. Didier is working on putting the "slides" online. 2018-04-20T05:35:43Z beach: And I think the proceedings are online too. 2018-04-20T05:35:57Z SaganMan: beach: how did your presentation go? 2018-04-20T05:36:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:36:24Z beach: I had two. Other people said they went well. 2018-04-20T05:37:16Z SaganMan: nice beach, that's good 2018-04-20T05:37:42Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T05:37:46Z beach: Sure. It becomes easier with experience. 2018-04-20T05:38:44Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:39:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:39:29Z SaganMan: beach: does your job also involves lisp or lisp is something you like to do as fun? 2018-04-20T05:39:56Z beach: I am a researcher, and Common Lisp is my research vehicle, so it is my job. 2018-04-20T05:39:59Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:40:37Z SaganMan: nice 2018-04-20T05:40:48Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:42:27Z beach: I always try to solve some practical problem. To do that, I have to invent some theory or some technique that needs to be proven to work. Then I use that theory or technique to create an implementation. Finally, I measure performance (often compared to existing techniques), and show that the new technique is better than existing ones. 2018-04-20T05:44:05Z beach: This formula works well for Common Lisp, because very little serious fundamental work has been done since the AI winter, and the reality of processors has changed radically since, so new techniques can be invented. 2018-04-20T05:44:20Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:45:24Z SaganMan: That's good beach. Those new techniques and theries of yours are patented? 2018-04-20T05:46:29Z beach: No. I am fundamentally against software patents. And I was part of the movement to get the EU parliament to reject software patents by a crushing majority. 2018-04-20T05:51:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:51:26Z beach: ... so instead they are published in the proceedings of ELS and ILC. 2018-04-20T05:52:10Z SaganMan: wow, that's awesome beach 2018-04-20T05:52:39Z beach: Thanks. 2018-04-20T05:52:43Z SaganMan: beach: One last question, may I know which university you're working in? 2018-04-20T05:52:46Z elderK: beach: Yeah, it is. 2018-04-20T05:53:00Z elderK: beach: Where will the slides / videos be made available? 2018-04-20T05:53:04Z elderK: :D I'd love to see some of them. 2018-04-20T05:53:14Z beach: SaganMan: University of Bordeaux. 2018-04-20T05:53:37Z beach: elderK: Didier is working on making the "slides" available, so that should be imminent. 2018-04-20T05:53:46Z SaganMan: beach: Thanks, I will leave to your work. Good Day. 2018-04-20T05:54:00Z beach: elderK: Videos will take a bit longer. 2018-04-20T05:54:18Z beach: SaganMan: Thanks. You too. Traveling home today. 2018-04-20T05:54:21Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:55:02Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T05:55:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-20T05:59:15Z beach left #lisp 2018-04-20T06:01:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:04:09Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-20T06:06:08Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:06:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:06:57Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T06:08:37Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:10:54Z phoe: heyyyy 2018-04-20T06:11:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:15:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T06:17:18Z ioa: Hey phoe 2018-04-20T06:18:58Z phoe: hey ioa 2018-04-20T06:20:51Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:27:41Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:28:46Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:30:23Z logand` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-20T06:37:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:37:21Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:38:12Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-20T06:40:29Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T06:44:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:45:06Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:46:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:49:57Z splittist: morning 2018-04-20T06:50:23Z shrdlu68: Morning splittist 2018-04-20T06:53:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T06:55:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T06:57:48Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:01:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:02:45Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:04:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: Afternoon 2018-04-20T07:06:36Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:15:01Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:16:54Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:18:54Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-20T07:19:13Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:21:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:21:37Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:28:31Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T07:28:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:30:42Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T07:31:34Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:32:07Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:32:49Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:32:49Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:35:49Z Ven` joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:36:05Z Ven`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:42:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:43:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T07:45:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:52:28Z coyo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:53:49Z borei joined #lisp 2018-04-20T07:54:26Z Ven` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-20T11:51:19Z d4ryus2 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-20T11:54:55Z phoe: afternoon everyone 2018-04-20T11:56:27Z edgar-rft is now known as everyone 2018-04-20T11:56:37Z everyone: afternoon phoe 2018-04-20T11:56:46Z everyone is now known as edgar-rft 2018-04-20T11:57:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T11:58:09Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-20T12:01:37Z SenasOzys__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:02:06Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:02:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:03:33Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:03:33Z gbyers quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-20T12:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:05:31Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:11:32Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:11:35Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:17:34Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:18:47Z Kevslinger: ::time in Phoe 2018-04-20T12:18:47Z Colleen: The time in Phoe is 2018.04.20 05:18:47. 2018-04-20T12:19:00Z Kevslinger: phoe: Looks like it's still morning 2018-04-20T12:21:23Z wildbartty joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:28:49Z thblt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:37:50Z krelix joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:38:11Z siraben` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-20T12:42:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:42:33Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:47:06Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:49:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:51:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:52:29Z krelix quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-20T12:55:30Z SenasOzys__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T12:56:38Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:56:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T12:58:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T12:59:55Z edgar-rft is now known as e-mingos 2018-04-20T13:00:19Z e-mingos is now known as edgar-rft 2018-04-20T13:00:33Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:01:49Z ebrasca: Kevslinger: Time of last Phoe mensage is more like 2018.04.20 13:54 2018-04-20T13:02:22Z Kevslinger: ::time in Phoe 2018-04-20T13:02:23Z Colleen: The time in Phoe is 2018.04.20 06:02:23. 2018-04-20T13:03:10Z ebrasca: I am in Poland and it is 2018.04.20 15:02 2018-04-20T13:03:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:03:57Z ebrasca: mmm 2018-04-20T13:04:05Z ebrasca: ::time in Kevslinger 2018-04-20T13:04:05Z Colleen: No location called "Kevslinger" could be found. 2018-04-20T13:04:24Z ebrasca: ::time Ebrasca 2018-04-20T13:04:24Z Colleen: I don't know where Ebrasca is located. 2018-04-20T13:04:43Z ebrasca: ::time beach 2018-04-20T13:04:44Z Colleen: The time in beach is 2018.04.20 09:04:44. 2018-04-20T13:05:05Z ebrasca: Colleen: help 2018-04-20T13:05:05Z Colleen: See 'help about' for general information. Try 'help X' to search for or retrieve information about a command. 2018-04-20T13:05:30Z ebrasca: Colleen: help X 2018-04-20T13:05:30Z Colleen: I found the following commands: 8, get, mop, say, set, clhs, deny, help, roll, tell 2018-04-20T13:05:51Z ebrasca: Colleen: help roll 2018-04-20T13:05:51Z Colleen: Command Syntax: roll &OPTIONAL (SIZE 6) (TIMES 1) 2018-04-20T13:05:51Z Colleen: Documentation: Roll some dice. Note that this is not provided with the intention of providing gambling means. 2018-04-20T13:06:12Z ebrasca: Colleen: roll 2018-04-20T13:06:12Z Colleen: 1d6: 5 2018-04-20T13:06:19Z Kevslinger: Is it weird that I thought the roll command would make her roll over, similar to the trick you teach a dog to do 2018-04-20T13:06:26Z Kevslinger: (this would be a digital roll, and not a physical roll, of course) 2018-04-20T13:07:41Z ebrasca: mmm 2018-04-20T13:07:50Z ebrasca: Colleen: clhs + 2018-04-20T13:07:50Z Colleen: Clhs: meanings for + http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 2018-04-20T13:07:52Z d4gg4d_ quit 2018-04-20T13:08:02Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:08:06Z ebrasca: clhs + 2018-04-20T13:08:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 2018-04-20T13:08:09Z d4gg4d_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:08:23Z ebrasca: Kevslinger: I like clhs * 2018-04-20T13:08:43Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:09:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:14:33Z trig-ger quit 2018-04-20T13:14:55Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:16:57Z Kevslinger: clhs * 2018-04-20T13:16:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm 2018-04-20T13:18:42Z Shinmera: Note that you can ask Colleen for the time as it should be for /users/, not /places/, but in order to do so the person needs a profile. 2018-04-20T13:18:45Z Shinmera: Colleen: time for shinmera 2018-04-20T13:18:46Z Colleen: The time for shinmera is 2018.04.20 15:18:46. 2018-04-20T13:19:40Z Kevslinger: Colleen: time for Kevslinger 2018-04-20T13:19:40Z Colleen: I don't know where Kevslinger is located. 2018-04-20T13:19:52Z Kevslinger: Don't give me that, I know you do 2018-04-20T13:20:08Z Shinmera: Sorry, there's no AI that can track user information based on chatter yet. 2018-04-20T13:20:14Z Shinmera: On the other hand that's probably a good thing. 2018-04-20T13:20:29Z Shinmera: or rather, Colleen doesn't have such an AI 2018-04-20T13:20:35Z Kevslinger: ::time in Tokyo 2018-04-20T13:20:35Z Colleen: The time in Tokyo is 2018.04.20 22:20:35. 2018-04-20T13:20:38Z krelix joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:20:45Z Kevslinger: ah, looks like I better head off to bed! 2018-04-20T13:22:06Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:24:21Z himmAllRIght joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:25:00Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T13:25:48Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:28:36Z rippa joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:29:08Z rvirding joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:29:57Z test1600 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:30:04Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:30:36Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:31:18Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:32:06Z zmt01 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:33:27Z zmt00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:36:31Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Why it don't have AI? 2018-04-20T13:37:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:37:36Z Bike: budget cuts 2018-04-20T13:37:48Z Bike: same reason there's no buzzsaws 2018-04-20T13:38:20Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:38:23Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:38:54Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:39:59Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:40:09Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T13:40:47Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:42:12Z jake_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:42:43Z jake_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-20T13:42:59Z Shinmera: ebrasca: because AI is hard. 2018-04-20T13:43:23Z tazjin quit 2018-04-20T13:43:40Z tazjin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:44:05Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Is it hard for you? 2018-04-20T13:44:42Z Shinmera: As hard as for everyone else. 2018-04-20T13:44:50Z Bike: i get it. i get the joke 2018-04-20T13:47:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T13:48:09Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T13:48:31Z pioneer42 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:48:43Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:48:47Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:49:07Z rme: My flight from Malaga was delayed so I missed my connecting flight in Paris. So, hi from a hotel in Roissy-en-France. 2018-04-20T13:49:57Z Bike: ouch. 2018-04-20T13:51:11Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T13:52:10Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:52:25Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T13:53:03Z _spm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T13:53:06Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:53:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:55:32Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-20T13:56:03Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T13:56:19Z antoszka: rme: Hope they get you a nice dinner too ;) 2018-04-20T13:56:43Z antoszka: I was lucky to get all my connections to SFO on time. 2018-04-20T13:57:23Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T13:58:03Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T13:59:46Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:00:17Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:00:59Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:01:10Z Bike: asked this last night but, does anyone know where slime decides what to print in the minibuffer for a function's lambda list 2018-04-20T14:01:20Z Bike: it's somehow processed from what swank returns as an arglist 2018-04-20T14:03:31Z Bike: there's only one place in slime.el that uses swank:operator-arglist but it doesn't do any further processing 2018-04-20T14:03:47Z Meow-J__ quit 2018-04-20T14:04:08Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:04:53Z Meow-J__ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:05:01Z Xof: my memory says "slime-autodoc" 2018-04-20T14:05:06Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:05:11Z Xof: we have already discussed how fallible my memory is 2018-04-20T14:05:15Z Xof: I remember that 2018-04-20T14:05:34Z pioneer42 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-20T14:06:41Z Bike: looks like you're right though 2018-04-20T14:06:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:06:50Z Bike: thanks 2018-04-20T14:06:59Z Xof: wait, why did I come into this room again? 2018-04-20T14:07:10Z Bike: to help me with my question. it's destiny 2018-04-20T14:07:57Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:08:16Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:09:03Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:09:24Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:09:35Z Bike: well this is pretty complicated, and i guess i can't hook things up like i wanted to 2018-04-20T14:09:37Z Bike: oh well 2018-04-20T14:12:54Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:13:41Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:13:41Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:15:35Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:15:35Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:15:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-20T14:16:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:16:53Z adulteratedjedi quit 2018-04-20T14:17:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:17:23Z adulteratedjedi joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:20:34Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:20:43Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:20:43Z Jen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:24:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:26:01Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:26:37Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:27:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:31:41Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:32:26Z Xof: incidentally, on the question of "why would anyone want to subclass method combination anyway?", I'm not sure! But I do wonder whether a more declarative, less arbitrary-code thing might be able to allow compute-effective-method to do some kind of smart caching 2018-04-20T14:32:51Z Xof: or rather, the class of the method combination could inform compute-effective-method whether smart caching was allowed or not 2018-04-20T14:34:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:34:18Z Bike: compute-effective-method already turns a second value of extra information, it could include a cachep specification 2018-04-20T14:34:33Z Bike: cacheablep. of course define-method-combination would have to be altered to allow specifying an em can't be cached 2018-04-20T14:34:41Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:34:58Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:35:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:35:53Z Bike: that kind of ties into the question of how effective methods are actually used, which is sort of its own can of worms 2018-04-20T14:38:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:40:37Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:40:47Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:41:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:41:46Z Xof: tangled web of worms 2018-04-20T14:43:09Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:43:57Z Bike: rat king 2018-04-20T14:44:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:45:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:45:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:47:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:47:34Z uvw joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:49:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:50:52Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:51:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:51:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:52:33Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:52:34Z Bindler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T14:53:54Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:54:42Z davidevvvv joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:55:23Z davidevvvv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:55:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T14:55:50Z samus joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:57:29Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T14:57:38Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T14:57:55Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I made an semi-official announcement (https://lobste.rs/s/4ktahz/ban_ai_s_public_access_multics_system) and yesterday hit about 100 simultaneous users online poking around and nothing broke, though it's a ghost town today. 2018-04-20T15:38:15Z trn: If you want a real account I plan to have all sort of forums soon :b 2018-04-20T15:39:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:40:15Z phoe: Kevslinger: wait, there is an actual town called Phoe? 2018-04-20T15:40:33Z phoe: wow 2018-04-20T15:40:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:40:54Z Kevslinger: beach: Congrats! 2018-04-20T15:41:11Z phoe: beach: congrats, yep! 2018-04-20T15:41:16Z Kevslinger: phoe: I started with Phoeland but couldn’t find anything. Turns out the land of phoe works just as well :) 2018-04-20T15:41:31Z Shinmera: phoe: Probably not, it's just fuzzy matching. 2018-04-20T15:42:10Z phoe: since it could be fuzzy-matching Phoenix, Arizona. 2018-04-20T15:42:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:43:33Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:45:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:45:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:46:10Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:46:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:47:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:49:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:50:31Z beach: trn: Excellent! 2018-04-20T15:50:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:52:25Z trn: beach: I'm working on a a web maintenance panel that will to the system with a WebSocket - so you can watch the blinkenlights of the actual system change the image on the panel that is the background of the web site. :) 2018-04-20T15:52:50Z beach: Heh, nice! 2018-04-20T15:53:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T15:54:30Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-20T15:56:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:00:48Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:01:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:03:34Z trn: For the panel, it uses a lot more bandwidth than I expected it to and it can get lagged, even with compression. So now I'm working on a UDP-based protocol. 2018-04-20T16:03:55Z Guest19681 is now known as kolb 2018-04-20T16:04:32Z beach: I actually don't think I saw the panel more than once or twice. 2018-04-20T16:04:59Z trn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni7wk7bjxA 2018-04-20T16:05:09Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:05:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:08:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:10:25Z beach: Hmm, maybe I never saw it. I don't recognize it at all. 2018-04-20T16:10:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:11:48Z trn: I'm likely going to use a 6180 panel like that, because the newer the machines got, the less lights they had, and the more you were expected to look at an operator console. 2018-04-20T16:12:19Z beach: Maybe I saw a newer machine. 2018-04-20T16:13:49Z trn: Probably, the later DPS series of machines looked more like standard racks and the half-sized ones looked like freezers :( 2018-04-20T16:15:57Z trn: On the 6180 and others I've seen and read the more interesting panels were on the inside of the cabinet doors 2018-04-20T16:15:59Z trn: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/68/0b/91/680b91e3907ce97558f3b3cc9c888243--evolution-s.jpg etc 2018-04-20T16:16:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:17:50Z trn: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Honeywell_66_60.jpg nicer shot. 2018-04-20T16:18:05Z himmAllRight17 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:18:28Z himmAllRIght quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:18:54Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:19:06Z himmAllRIght joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:19:47Z beach: Got it. I should figure out what machine I was working on. 2018-04-20T16:20:09Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:21:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:21:23Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:21:34Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:25:10Z corehello joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:26:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:28:51Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:28:59Z Chream_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:29:18Z trn: It's sort of interesting to me that Honeywell absolutely refused to the idea of a bus in their larger system, and the whole 'bus' was sort of a dirty word - they even abused the 'multiplexer' terminology to avoid 'bus' because they did everything point to point for latency and performance reasons. 2018-04-20T16:30:20Z beach: I had no idea. 2018-04-20T16:30:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:30:40Z trn: Yeah, it's sort of crazy, so attaching 8 CPU's to 8 IOM's needs 64 ports dedicated to that. 2018-04-20T16:30:43Z corehello quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-20T16:32:02Z trn: The virtual machines 'wiring' code makes this all so much easier than setting these machines up in real life, I'd imagine :) 2018-04-20T16:32:39Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:32:53Z beach: trn: I need to go help my (admittedly small) family. We just came home from a week at ELS and there is much work to catch up on. 2018-04-20T16:33:00Z trn: Enjoy! 2018-04-20T16:33:30Z trn: I'll come back and bother you all later - on my todo list is to get the original ITS maclisp ELIZA and SHRDLU code working on multics :) 2018-04-20T16:34:59Z Kevslinger: ::time in Phoenix 2018-04-20T16:34:59Z Colleen: The time in Phoenix is 2018.04.20 09:34:59. 2018-04-20T16:35:03Z Kevslinger: ::time in Phoe 2018-04-20T16:35:04Z Colleen: The time in Phoe is 2018.04.20 09:35:04. 2018-04-20T16:35:11Z Kevslinger: phoe: darn :( 2018-04-20T16:35:45Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:36:29Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:36:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:37:24Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:37:37Z atdmpz joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:39:00Z ebrasca: beach: hi 2018-04-20T16:39:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:39:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T16:39:47Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T16:40:35Z fikka quit 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"cl-cor:m-co" -> "cl-coroutine:make-coroutine" 2018-04-20T18:37:31Z jackdaniel: unless you provide your own initial bindings 2018-04-20T18:37:43Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T18:37:57Z jackdaniel: one important note: when you create threads *always* wrap them in handler-case, even if you do not plan to handle errors 2018-04-20T18:37:58Z makomo: jackdaniel: i see. but the threads have their own completely separate dynamic environements? the binding for *database* in one thread isn't the same thing as the binding for *database* in another? 2018-04-20T18:38:10Z jackdaniel: otherwise you'll most likely miss unwind-protect clause 2018-04-20T18:38:14Z jackdaniel: what is disastarous 2018-04-20T18:38:24Z jackdaniel: yes 2018-04-20T18:38:37Z Bike: wait, why handler case? 2018-04-20T18:38:45Z jackdaniel: (defvar *foo* 3) (let ((*foo* 8)) (print *foo*) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (print *foo*))))) 2018-04-20T18:38:57Z jackdaniel: ;-> this will yield 8 and 3 being printed 2018-04-20T18:39:10Z jackdaniel: Bike: because otherwise, if you don't catch error somewhere, your thread simply crashes 2018-04-20T18:39:20Z jackdaniel: and there is no way for implementation to run all cleanup forms 2018-04-20T18:39:30Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:39:47Z Bike: so you mean have your thread function do everything in a handler case? 2018-04-20T18:39:48Z jackdaniel: this behavior happens at least on sbcl and ecl, but I would be suprised if ccl handles it gracefully 2018-04-20T18:40:16Z jackdaniel: yes, more or less. unless you are sure that no error will pass to the toplevel 2018-04-20T18:40:25Z jackdaniel: you don't have a debugger in a thread by default 2018-04-20T18:40:44Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:40:54Z isoraqathedh: How do I invoke a restart on errors emitted by SBCL? e.g. for sb-int:stream-decoding-error, I want to invoke input-replacement, but there's no symbol named that in either sb-int, sb-ext or sb-impl. 2018-04-20T18:40:57Z makomo: jackdaniel: and rebinding *foo* to something else within the second thread will have no effect on the binding of *foo* in the first thread, correct? so the threads have separate own dynamic environments 2018-04-20T18:41:07Z jackdaniel: or you are sure that there are no unwind-protect in your code (in with-lock-held) 2018-04-20T18:41:24Z jackdaniel: in example* 2018-04-20T18:41:33Z Bike: isoraqathedh: well you have to find the symbol. i couldn't tell you what it is, though 2018-04-20T18:41:47Z jackdaniel: makomo: yes. that's the behavior of implementations 2018-04-20T18:41:53Z Bike: there's an sb-impl::input-replacement 2018-04-20T18:42:00Z Bike: but the :: kind of means you're not supposed to useit 2018-04-20T18:42:09Z jackdaniel: but once again, there is no mention of threads in cl standard. different techniques are discussed for instance in a book Lisp in Small Pieces 2018-04-20T18:42:11Z Bike: (or, that sbcl devs forgot to export it) 2018-04-20T18:42:16Z isoraqathedh: Hey, that works fine! 2018-04-20T18:42:27Z makomo: jackdaniel: mhm, i understand 2018-04-20T18:42:27Z fsmunoz joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:42:41Z isoraqathedh: It really is a little bit difficult to search for restart names. The default SLIME outputs only show the name of the package, not the package it's in. 2018-04-20T18:42:59Z jackdaniel: and that's all help I can provide right now, it is our last night in Marbella and we plan to have a delightful dinner :-) laters 2018-04-20T18:45:05Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:45:11Z makomo: jackdaniel: cheers, have fun :-) 2018-04-20T18:45:45Z Bike: isoraqathedh: i used apropos 2018-04-20T18:45:59Z isoraqathedh: A-ah. 2018-04-20T18:47:45Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:52:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T18:53:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T18:57:09Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T18:58:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:05:37Z Anthaas quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:05:47Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:06:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:06:45Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:09:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:09:37Z zmt01 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T19:10:02Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:11:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:12:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:14:00Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:14:08Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:17:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:17:27Z doanyway: is there something similar to a study path for game programmer for common lisp ? I am still working through pcl 2018-04-20T19:17:35Z doanyway: https://github.com/miloyip/game-programmer 2018-04-20T19:17:48Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:18:51Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:22:12Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:22:50Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:25:04Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:25:19Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:25:32Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:26:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:27:39Z Cymew_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:30:22Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:31:06Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/lispgames/lispgames.github.io/wiki and #lispgames 2018-04-20T19:31:37Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-20T19:31:52Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T19:32:00Z doanyway: jackdaniel: not for games but what books should I progress through to get proficient at common lisp 2018-04-20T19:32:16Z izto joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:33:31Z jackdaniel: sweat and tears ;) you won't make a mistake if you study paip (which was recently released to download for free) 2018-04-20T19:33:48Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2018-04-20T19:34:06Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:34:35Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:34:52Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:34:57Z doanyway: how does paip compare to http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ ? 2018-04-20T19:35:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:35:31Z jackdaniel: when you study both – you tell me :) 2018-04-20T19:36:05Z doanyway: jackdaniel: I will if we both live long enough 2018-04-20T19:36:07Z White_Flame: paip is practical, and about lisp. aima is more conceptual, and about AI 2018-04-20T19:36:09Z Bike: i'm pretty sure they have different goals. 2018-04-20T19:36:17Z Bike: ' 2018-04-20T19:36:56Z White_Flame: the book Land Of Lisp teaches lisp through games 2018-04-20T19:36:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:37:12Z White_Flame: but not typical graphical games 2018-04-20T19:37:28Z izto quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2018-04-20T19:37:43Z White_Flame: repl-based games and some that display graphics via web browser 2018-04-20T19:37:48Z doanyway: White_Flame: I finished land of lisp - pcl has been more helpful for my understanding 2018-04-20T19:39:23Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:39:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:40:33Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:40:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:41:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:43:12Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:43:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:44:12Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:44:50Z ebrasca: doanyway: PCL is my favorite. 2018-04-20T19:45:12Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T19:45:49Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:45:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:47:12Z doanyway: ebrasca: I am liking it but I am only halfway through it - taking awhile 2018-04-20T19:47:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:48:53Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:50:10Z Murii_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:50:12Z Murii_: check if is file is directory ? 2018-04-20T19:51:50Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:51:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:53:05Z Anthaas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:53:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:54:24Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:54:24Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-20T19:54:24Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:57:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T19:58:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:58:35Z webchat296_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T19:59:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:00:53Z johnvonneumann quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T20:01:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:02:00Z ebrasca: Murii: What do you mean? 2018-04-20T20:02:43Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-20T20:03:16Z webchat296_: Hello SBCL question. What I have to do make sure when I execute the saved lisp image it gives me a REPL after executing the toplevel lambda? Currently it executes the toplevel and quits. (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "./sayhello" :toplevel #'(lambda () (format t "hello")) :executable t) 2018-04-20T20:03:30Z webchat296_: ah bad formatting 2018-04-20T20:03:40Z webchat296_: SBCL question. What I have to do make sure when I execute the saved lisp image it gives me a REPL after executing the toplevel lambda? Currently it executes the toplevel and quits. 2018-04-20T20:03:51Z webchat296_: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "./sayhello" 2018-04-20T20:03:57Z webchat296_: :toplevel #'(lambda () (format t "hello")) 2018-04-20T20:04:04Z webchat296_: :executable t) 2018-04-20T20:04:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:04:57Z Bike: i think you'd have to run a repl in the toplevel function. 2018-04-20T20:05:34Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:06:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:06:02Z webchat296_: @Bike .. is there a "quicklisp way" to do it? 2018-04-20T20:06:16Z fsmunoz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:06:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:06:26Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T20:07:25Z Bike: don't know whatthat means 2018-04-20T20:09:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:10:00Z webchat296_: does any quicklisp library provide this functionality? i.e. i save an image by calling a function with something like :repl t 2018-04-20T20:10:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:12:04Z Bike: there are some libraries that provide uniform interfaces to dumping images. there's asdf/image forone. i don't know much about them. 2018-04-20T20:12:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:13:02Z Bike: but also, if all you'redoing is executing something before going back to the normal repl, you could just pass --eval options to the executable 2018-04-20T20:13:32Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:16:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:17:40Z webchat296_: i have some data that i don't want to reload all the time. it lives in the image. something like this: 2018-04-20T20:17:41Z webchat296_: (defparameter *foo* "Foo") 2018-04-20T20:17:49Z webchat296_: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "./sayhello" 2018-04-20T20:17:55Z webchat296_: :toplevel #'(lambda () (format t "hello ~s" *foo*)) 2018-04-20T20:18:01Z webchat296_: :executable t) 2018-04-20T20:18:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:18:50Z webchat296_: so what i want is, after i run the saved image .. i have access to *foo* in a repl and i keep on playing with the data 2018-04-20T20:19:16Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T20:19:41Z jasom: I can't be the only one to wish that unwind-protect was of the form (unwind-protect cleanup-form &body protected-forms) right? 2018-04-20T20:20:32Z makomo: jasom: agreed 2018-04-20T20:20:39Z makomo: i've thought about that numerous times too 2018-04-20T20:20:45Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:22:44Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T20:22:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:23:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:24:33Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:25:35Z makomo: i think i might have interested yet another guy for lisp. examples are the key it seems. :-) 2018-04-20T20:27:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:28:15Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:29:05Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:32:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:33:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:34:10Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:35:24Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:36:25Z Bike: webchat296_: yeah i'd just throw it in a fasl or something i guess. 2018-04-20T20:36:36Z Bike: yeah, most of the time i use unwind-protect it's with a progn. it's dumb. 2018-04-20T20:36:42Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:38:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:38:01Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:38:18Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:39:05Z jasom: webchat296_: what's the problem? 2018-04-20T20:39:28Z jasom: webchat296_: just use :executable nil and pass the image to your lisp executable 2018-04-20T20:39:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:40:01Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:40:06Z jasom: IIRC you can even use an environment variable to tell SBCL where to find its image 2018-04-20T20:40:43Z webchat296_: jasom: i see .. let me try real quick 2018-04-20T20:40:59Z jasom: webchat296_: or just don't pass the :toplevel 2018-04-20T20:41:11Z jasom: that will make a new executable with the core included and the default toplevel 2018-04-20T20:41:16Z jasom: I think. It's been a while 2018-04-20T20:41:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:42:23Z jasom: webchat296_: yeah, sorry I didn't read the entire scrollback, you just omit :toplevel and it will do what you want 2018-04-20T20:42:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:43:02Z webchat296_: jasom: i saved an image with :executable nil then did the following in the shell 2018-04-20T20:43:05Z webchat296_: sbcl --core sayhello 2018-04-20T20:43:29Z Anthaas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:43:45Z webchat296_: it immediately exits after running the form i provided 2018-04-20T20:44:06Z webchat296_: jasom: how to stay on the repl after that? 2018-04-20T20:45:23Z jasom: webchat296_: my mistake, just leave out the :toplevel (lambda ...) and it will give you a repl by default 2018-04-20T20:45:27Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:46:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:46:28Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T20:47:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:48:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:49:11Z webchat296_: jasom: cool it worked! guess i have to look into asdf/image as Bike mentioned to set hooks after image restore 2018-04-20T20:49:29Z webchat296_: thanks jasom thanks Bike 2018-04-20T20:49:32Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:52:02Z jasom: webchat296_: I don't think the uiop image functions give you access to the default toplevel, but I may be wrong 2018-04-20T20:52:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:52:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:53:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:56:39Z jasom: I think sb-impl::toplevel-init is the function that sbcl uses though 2018-04-20T20:58:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:58:32Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T20:58:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:59:13Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T20:59:25Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-20T21:00:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:03:57Z webchat296_: jasom: i see. i tried something similar with uiop/image 2018-04-20T21:04:00Z webchat296_: (uiop/image:register-image-restore-hook #'(lambda () (format t "Hello")) nil) 2018-04-20T21:04:08Z webchat296_: (uiop/image:dump-image "sayhello" :executable t) 2018-04-20T21:04:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:04:27Z webchat296_: jasom: but i am back to square one. 2018-04-20T21:04:28Z jasom: webchat296_: internally uiop replaces the toplevel function with one that calls its own hooks 2018-04-20T21:04:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:05:11Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T21:06:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:06:41Z doanyway quit 2018-04-20T21:06:46Z webchat296_: jasom: uiop/image:dump-image also kills the current process 2018-04-20T21:06:50Z jasom: If you only want to use sbcl, then you can set *image-entry-point* to be sb-impl::toplevel-init and it should work, but that's specific to sbcl 2018-04-20T21:07:04Z jasom: webchat296_: this is common for lisps that dump images 2018-04-20T21:07:33Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:08:35Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:08:49Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:09:03Z Bike: webchat296_: "[save lisp and die] corrupts the current Lisp image enough that the current process needs to be killed afterwards." says the sbcl manual. 2018-04-20T21:09:05Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-20T21:11:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:11:17Z webchat296_: jasom/Bike: so far this is what i have: 2018-04-20T21:11:18Z webchat296_: (defparameter *data* "really big data") 2018-04-20T21:11:21Z webchat296_: (setf *image-entry-point* #'sb-impl::toplevel-init) 2018-04-20T21:11:23Z webchat296_: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "./sayhello" :executable t) 2018-04-20T21:12:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:12:50Z jasom: webchat296_: note that using sb-impl::toplevel-init as the entry point is a hack, you may want to ask on sbcl if there is a better way to save an image that can run some hooks and then enter the REPL. 2018-04-20T21:12:56Z jasom: ask on #sbcl rather 2018-04-20T21:13:14Z webchat296_: jasom: ah i see 2018-04-20T21:13:56Z jasom: If this is just a quick-and-dirty environment you're using for a few days and will throw away, maybe don't spend time on finding the Right Way, but otherwise it may be worth digging deeper 2018-04-20T21:14:10Z aeth: Data you don't want to reload all of the time? If you make really-big-data in a macro, you can do this (I use it with shaders) to create what effectively becomes a compile time constant: (defmethod make-load-form ((object shader) &optional environment) (make-load-form-saving-slots object :environment environment)) 2018-04-20T21:14:38Z aeth: Then the functions I create with define-shader are trivial functions that just return the constant shader object, with a constant shader source string, etc. 2018-04-20T21:15:02Z Bike: i already suggested using a fasl 2018-04-20T21:15:05Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:15:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:17:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:17:11Z aeth: Oh, in case I was unclear, I have a macro define-shader that creates the shader object... in the macro. So it goes roughly like this: `(defun ,name () ,(make-instance 'shader ...)) where all of the slots are created by functions run at the macro time, not at runtime. 2018-04-20T21:17:52Z jasom: webchat296_: (documentation 'sb-ext:*init-hooks* 'variable) 2018-04-20T21:18:13Z jasom: webchat296_: that looks like it will do what you want and you can just use the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die without a :toplevel 2018-04-20T21:18:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:19:54Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:21:04Z webchat296_: jasom: cool. now my goal is to fork the process and do the image-dumping in the child. then the parent lives on and i get to save snapshots. 2018-04-20T21:21:37Z Murii_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:22:09Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:22:24Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:24:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:28:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:30:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:32:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:32:41Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T21:34:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:35:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:36:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:40:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:41:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:41:48Z simplegauss: i think i have found a rather strange optimization bug in sbcl, can anyone explain why this happens and/or how to get around it and if it really is a bug? code: https://pastebin.com/z3pb4nA9 . the problem is that it appears if i have a macro that expands to a lambda function, it is optimized differently than if it is handwritten, which is very confusing to me. More confusingly, if I add a layer of "flet" (please see code) to the macro, 2018-04-20T21:41:48Z simplegauss: the optimization kicks in properly again, despite the fact i'm just copying the same code twice (again, this is confusing in text but clear in the short example) 2018-04-20T21:43:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:47:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:48:18Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:48:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-20T21:49:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:51:48Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:53:05Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:53:10Z pfdietz2: This has been fixed in the SBCL repo I believe. Build SBCL from current source and see if it fixes it. 2018-04-20T21:54:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:54:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T21:55:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T21:57:02Z simplegauss: pfdietz2: great! now the scary question: is there a guide to building SBCL on windows? it seems to even be a few versions back on the website 2018-04-20T21:58:29Z simplegauss: pfdietz2: and from an academic point of view, do you know why such a thing happened? it seems it should have been impossible in any reasonable implementation of macroexpansion 2018-04-20T21:58:34Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T21:59:10Z pfdietz2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2018-04-20T21:59:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:00:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T22:01:52Z captgector quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T22:02:21Z captgector joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:06:03Z jasom: webchat296_: FYI forking on sbcl is only supported if you haven't created any threads 2018-04-20T22:06:54Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:08:10Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:08:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:10:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:12:58Z Quetzal2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T22:14:13Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:14:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T22:15:08Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:17:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:19:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:19:33Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:20:45Z webchat296_: jasom: is that so? ah .. then do I have to kill all "non-main" threads before doing the fork? 2018-04-20T22:22:31Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:23:19Z jasom: webchat296_: I think that will work. The issue is that sbcl in the child process doesn't know the fork has happend, and threading plus fork() isn't really well defined to begin with, so if the GC is invoked off of the main thread, Bad Things happen. 2018-04-20T22:23:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:26:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:27:00Z webchat296_: jasom: but i can do this no problem: https://pastebin.com/A0kMZB38 2018-04-20T22:27:26Z webchat296_: jasom: what did you mean when you said "the child process doesn't know the fork has happend" ? 2018-04-20T22:27:36Z jasom: webchat296_: I mean the SBCL runtime doesn't 2018-04-20T22:28:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:28:42Z webchat296_: jasom: i see 2018-04-20T22:28:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:29:12Z phoe: webchat296_: actually 2018-04-20T22:29:15Z jasom: webchat296_: obviously sb-posix:fork could be changed to do all the work that it required for this to work correctly, but it would be non-portable since posix doesn't define what happens to pthreads on fork 2018-04-20T22:29:29Z phoe: webchat296_: I remember that shka was playing with sb-posix:fork a little bit 2018-04-20T22:29:46Z jasom: so just don't use threads and it's a non-problem 2018-04-20T22:29:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:32:12Z webchat296_: jasom: no threads will mean i can't use slime :-S 2018-04-20T22:32:28Z jasom: webchat296_: I think there is a single-threaded slime option, but you lose some features 2018-04-20T22:33:52Z webchat296_: jasom: i see .. i'll have to look into that 2018-04-20T22:34:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:34:26Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: what do you mean by "posix doesn't define what happens to pthreads on fork" ? 2018-04-20T22:34:43Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: well, the state of threads is UB iirc 2018-04-20T22:35:26Z p_l: though if you have full control over threads in your application, you can actually do a safe fork() with threads 2018-04-20T22:35:47Z jasom: sorry, it's actually safe so long as you only call async-signal-safe operations until exec is called 2018-04-20T22:36:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:36:09Z jasom: A process shall be created with a single thread. If a multi-threaded process calls fork(), the new process shall contain a replica of the calling thread and its entire address space, possibly including the states of mutexes and other resources. Consequently, to avoid errors, the child process may only execute async-signal-safe operations until such time as one of the exec functions is called. [THR] [Option 2018-04-20T22:36:11Z jasom: Start] Fork handlers may be established by means of the pthread_atfork() function in order to maintain application invariants across fork() calls 2018-04-20T22:37:16Z p_l: I believe the problem is getting all threads to sane state in usual programs (read C-derived) 2018-04-20T22:38:22Z jasom: So, would a without-gcing fork/exec be safe in sbcl? 2018-04-20T22:38:42Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:40:01Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: you don't need to block the GC 2018-04-20T22:40:22Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: ah, there are no threads in the child process, so as long as you don't cons, it won't invoke the GC? 2018-04-20T22:40:30Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2018-04-20T22:40:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:40:53Z jasom: does that work on CCL as well? 2018-04-20T22:41:19Z jasom was using spawn for something, but the lack of a chdir in spawn was making things difficult 2018-04-20T22:41:36Z jasom: and I assume save-lisp-and-die runs the GC so you can't fork/s-l-a-d 2018-04-20T22:41:57Z fe[nl]ix: so what's safe is to fork, and the child only accesses memory that was allocated outside the GC heap, e.g. stack / C heap / mmap'd memory 2018-04-20T22:42:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:42:24Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: so I'd neet to foreign alloc all the parameters to exec before forking 2018-04-20T22:42:36Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: use IOlib :) I believe I added the option to chdir 2018-04-20T22:42:51Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: grumble grumble libfixposix grumble 2018-04-20T22:43:02Z fe[nl]ix: yes, that's what I do in IOlib, copy everything to C heap 2018-04-20T22:43:43Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: I plan to make delivery much easier, I just need to find some time 2018-04-20T22:44:01Z fe[nl]ix: but still not Windows support 2018-04-20T22:44:34Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: well I can handle windows in it's own file if I have a unix one that works widely without people having to install a non-lisp library or have cc in their path 2018-04-20T22:45:38Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: the plan is to track SBCL, libfixposix and the Debian port of openssl 2018-04-20T22:46:18Z fe[nl]ix: and rebuild a new SBCL binary with openssl and libfixposix statically linked whenever there's a release or a security update 2018-04-20T22:46:53Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:47:01Z fe[nl]ix: that way you don't need to futz with libfixposix.so and libssl.so any more 2018-04-20T22:47:14Z mmacleod quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-20T22:47:32Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: and sbcl will upstream this? 2018-04-20T22:47:43Z fe[nl]ix: definitely not 2018-04-20T22:47:47Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:48:26Z jasom: oh, I'd have to distribute binaries then 2018-04-20T22:48:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:48:29Z fe[nl]ix: I would distribute those binaries, and people can use them instead of the official ones 2018-04-20T22:49:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:50:41Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:51:24Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T22:51:26Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T22:51:34Z abbe joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:51:54Z cpape joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:52:04Z stux|RC-- joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:52:21Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:52:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:53:27Z Bronsa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:53:40Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:53:59Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:54:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T22:54:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:55:28Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:56:20Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T22:56:34Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-20T22:58:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:00:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:00:56Z cpape quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:01:58Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:02:35Z Anthaas quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:05:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:06:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:07:34Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:11:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:13:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:14:52Z zazzerino joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:17:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:19:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:23:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:25:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:28:29Z gonzojive: Straw poll: which SLIME completion algorithm do you use? I have been using slime c-p-c, but I'm curious about fuzzy completion 2018-04-20T23:28:29Z Achylles quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-20T23:28:33Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:29:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:30:14Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:31:37Z Bike: fuzz. 2018-04-20T23:32:03Z Bike: no wait, maybe cpc. who knows 2018-04-20T23:33:17Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:35:08Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:35:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:35:48Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:37:04Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:37:41Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-20T23:37:57Z Guest6344 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:38:09Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:40:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:40:35Z Guest6344 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:40:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:40:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:41:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:42:02Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T23:42:02Z ghard` joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:43:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-20T23:43:26Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:43:36Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:45:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:45:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:48:17Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:48:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:50:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:51:08Z webchat296_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-20T23:52:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:55:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-20T23:55:56Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-20T23:56:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-20T23:56:44Z kerrhau: does anyone know where SBCL searches for foreign libraries? 2018-04-20T23:57:22Z kerrhau: I'm trying to load SDL2 but it keeps erroring that it cant load the library 2018-04-20T23:57:57Z cgay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T00:00:26Z Bike: i think it just does dlopen? 2018-04-21T00:00:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:01:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:02:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:02:25Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:03:10Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T00:03:45Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:06:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:06:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:08:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:08:21Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2018-04-21T00:11:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:14:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:15:29Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T00:15:44Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:16:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:19:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:20:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:21:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:23:07Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:23:34Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T00:24:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:26:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:26:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:27:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:29:02Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:31:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:33:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:34:53Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:35:21Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T00:37:42Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:37:50Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:39:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:41:10Z Guest6344 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:41:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:41:41Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-21T00:42:52Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T00:43:24Z simplegauss: pfdietz: i just compiled the latest sbcl and tested my code, the optimization bug is still there 2018-04-21T00:43:35Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:43:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:44:45Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:45:11Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:45:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T00:46:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:46:57Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T00:49:07Z pfdietz: Hmm. 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When I read the array back in, the element-type is gone 2018-04-21T02:17:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:18:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:18:54Z mmacleod joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:19:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:20:14Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:21:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:21:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:22:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:25:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:26:31Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:27:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:28:58Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:29:22Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T02:29:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:29:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:30:20Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:32:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:32:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:32:21Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:32:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:33:37Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:33:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:34:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-21T02:34:33Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:35:01Z beach: sea: No, there is not predefined printed representation for specialized array. You would have to invent your own. 2018-04-21T02:35:14Z sea: Alright, thanks 2018-04-21T02:35:38Z sea: I was gonna do that anyway so I could share data with C 2018-04-21T02:35:48Z beach: I am sorry to hear that. 2018-04-21T02:36:13Z Kevslinger: Hi beach! 2018-04-21T02:36:39Z beach: Hey Kevslinger. I take it y'all made it home? 2018-04-21T02:37:21Z Kevslinger: Indeed. We left Marbella Wednesday morning, and arrive in Philadelphia Wednesday late afternoon. 2018-04-21T02:37:43Z beach: Has the weather improved in Philadelphia since you left? 2018-04-21T02:38:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:39:20Z Kevslinger: The day we left, Philly was very warm. During ELS, it snowed in Philly. This morning, it was very cold, then in the afternoon it was beautifully warm, and now tonigh it is cold again. This weekend is projected to be wonderful, though, so I am looking forward to that. 2018-04-21T02:39:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:40:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:40:06Z oxo1o1o1o quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:40:21Z beach: Oh, good. 2018-04-21T02:42:01Z Kevslinger: beach: Wow bordeaux is very humid today! Is it always like that? 2018-04-21T02:42:19Z beach: In the summer, fairly often, yes. 2018-04-21T02:42:45Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:42:58Z Kevslinger: That's wild 2018-04-21T02:45:04Z beach: 70% is what I see. That's not bad. :) 2018-04-21T02:45:51Z Kevslinger: ::weather in Philadelphia 2018-04-21T02:45:51Z Colleen: Weather in Philadelphia: Clear at 6°C (feels like 4°C), 48% humidity, 2km/h wind, 1029hPa pressure. 2018-04-21T02:46:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:46:07Z Kevslinger: you got us beat by a massive margin 2018-04-21T02:46:18Z beach: Indeed. 2018-04-21T02:49:44Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T02:50:37Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux#Climate 2018-04-21T02:51:15Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:51:38Z beach: Annual average relative humidity: 81%. :) 2018-04-21T02:53:44Z Kevslinger: That is truly unbelievable. The humidity of Pennsylvania is one of my least favorite parts about it. Couldn't imagine even more water in the air 2018-04-21T02:58:31Z beach: There might be some Lisp jobs in Arizona. :) 2018-04-21T02:58:37Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T02:58:49Z beach: Or undergraduate programs in your domain. :) 2018-04-21T02:59:11Z Kevslinger: ::weather in Phoe 2018-04-21T02:59:12Z Colleen: Weather in Phoenix: Clear at 23°C, 18% humidity, 3km/h wind, 1014hPa pressure. 2018-04-21T02:59:30Z Kevslinger: ah, yes, much more suitable. Sounds like a plan :) 2018-04-21T03:00:37Z vypr quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 2018-04-21T03:02:35Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:02:36Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:04:01Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:04:04Z brendyn joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:05:30Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:05:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:06:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:07:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:08:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:08:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:15:39Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:20:14Z persi1 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:21:22Z stacksmith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T03:26:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:27:44Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:28:29Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:29:24Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-21T03:30:16Z pierpal quit (Read error: 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for months to have my programs added to Quicklisp. 2018-04-21T05:26:32Z verisimilitude: To my knowledge, they still aren't added; I want to know what the issue is. 2018-04-21T05:29:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:30:41Z blurgh joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:31:08Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:33:34Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T05:35:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:36:26Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T05:37:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T05:37:57Z surya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:38:08Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T05:38:26Z blurgh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-21T05:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T05:42:40Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:44:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:44:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:46:42Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-21T05:49:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 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2018-04-21T07:08:38Z Murii_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:09:31Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T07:09:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:11:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:12:08Z thblt joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:14:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:14:48Z surya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:16:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T07:19:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:22:52Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T07:23:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T07:29:00Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T07:34:23Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-21T07:37:57Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T07:44:20Z verisimilitude: So, what are you all working on lately; with regards to Lisp, I've been primarily concerned with my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL abstract terminal library. 2018-04-21T07:51:46Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:04:27Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T08:04:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:07:31Z hajovonta: I work on a statistics library. 2018-04-21T08:08:50Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:11:40Z verisimilitude: What is it called, hajovonta? 2018-04-21T08:11:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T08:12:43Z hajovonta: it has codename "nightwalker" 2018-04-21T08:13:41Z verisimilitude: Okay. 2018-04-21T08:13:57Z verisimilitude: Is the current state of the source publicly available? 2018-04-21T08:18:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T08:21:30Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:22:27Z DataLinkDroid2 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:23:34Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T08:23:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-21T08:24:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-21T08:24:49Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T08:29:33Z thblt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T08:30:37Z Baggers quit (Quit: b) 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http://paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html and I cannot evaluate a lambda passed as an argument to another lambda on page 4: ((lambda (f) (f '(b c))) '(lambda (x) (cons 'a x))). it should yield (a b c) but instead slime 2.20 & sbcl 1.4.6 provide two "style-warning"s and abort with "function f is undefined". why so? I can do (lambda (x) (* x x) 5) normally, for example 2018-04-21T10:36:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T10:38:14Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T10:38:17Z hajovonta1 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T10:38:55Z phoe: light2yellow: Graham, in his paper, describes a so-called Lisp 1, where functions and variables share a single namespace. 2018-04-21T10:39:23Z MichaelRaskin: Which is what Scheme/Guile/Racket do nowadays 2018-04-21T10:39:25Z phoe: In Common Lisp, the value of variable F and the function F are distinct; Common Lisp is a lisp-2. 2018-04-21T10:39:43Z MichaelRaskin: But Common Lisp is Lisp-2, so you need an explicit funcall to call a value as a function 2018-04-21T10:40:12Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: actually 2018-04-21T10:40:14Z phoe: I am surprised 2018-04-21T10:40:26Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-21T10:40:36Z phoe: FUNCALL does not accept lists of form (lambda (foo) ...) as functions 2018-04-21T10:40:41Z hajovonta1 is now known as hajovonta 2018-04-21T10:40:49Z phoe: ((lambda (f) (funcall f '(b c))) (lambda (x) (cons 'a x))) works for me 2018-04-21T10:41:27Z random-nick: the LAMBDA macros wraps the lambda expression in FUNCTION form 2018-04-21T10:41:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T10:41:34Z MichaelRaskin: Right, Common Lisp _also_ wants you to wrap (function …) around the list to recognise that this actually describes a function 2018-04-21T10:41:36Z random-nick: s/in/in a/ 2018-04-21T10:41:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T10:42:25Z light2yellow: thanks 2018-04-21T10:44:02Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T10:46:07Z phoe: light2yellow: a good choice of article though, I used that one to implement a half-working minimal Lisp in Haskell. 2018-04-21T10:46:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-21T10:50:53Z light2yellow: phoe: I need to write something 10-page long about lisp (without further specification, literally), so I'm just trying to wrap my head around it first 2018-04-21T10:52:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T10:53:26Z phoe: light2yellow: good idea! You can also fire up some sort of Lisp IDE and fiddle around with it while reading some sort of very introductory book. 2018-04-21T10:53:56Z phoe: https://portacle.github.io/ and http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html are a good choice, except use Portacle and not Lisp-In-A-Box. 2018-04-21T10:54:13Z phoe: Portacle is maintained and modern, compared to L-I-A-B. 2018-04-21T10:54:35Z phoe: And once you're done with this chapter, go straight to http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 2018-04-21T10:56:34Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2018-04-21T10:56:50Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-21T11:01:02Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T11:05:44Z phoe: but 2018-04-21T11:06:00Z phoe: if you already evaluate expressions in CL, it means you already have some sort of implementation installed. 2018-04-21T11:06:23Z light2yellow: phoe: thank you for the recommendations. I'm using spacemacs with slime as a repl, and scrolled through few chapters of that book (including the mentioned ones). however, it's more important to me to understand why lisp was/is an important idea, why and in what way it was/is revolutionary, what have its dialects brought etc., than to know how to do something in particular, so I'm reading more "analysis" 2018-04-21T11:06:25Z light2yellow: papers/articles, if I can define them so 2018-04-21T11:07:56Z phoe: light2yellow: spacemacs+slime is good, I use it as well 2018-04-21T11:09:28Z phoe: well, Lisp was revolutionary because it introduced concepts like IF/THEN/ELSE, first-class functions, recursion, GC, image-based programming, homoiconicity et cetera 2018-04-21T11:09:51Z phoe: most of which have now made their way into other languages, so that's a successful revolution. 2018-04-21T11:10:32Z MichaelRaskin: for if-then-else I would triple-check if Fortran had this from the beginning 2018-04-21T11:10:48Z jdz: light2yellow: I'd suggest this: http://www.restlessdevice.com/e02-lisp-learning-to-think-about-thinking/ 2018-04-21T11:11:15Z jdz: light2yellow: And maybe also http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/lisp-as-the-maxwells-equations-of-software/ (just because the title seems relevant). 2018-04-21T11:11:49Z hajovonta: re 2018-04-21T11:12:47Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: AFAIR McCarthy implemented it first in Lisp and then it made its way into Fortran right afterwards 2018-04-21T11:12:48Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2018-04-21T11:14:23Z random-nick: didn't ALGOL have if-then-else before FORTRAN? 2018-04-21T11:14:30Z pfdietz: Yes 2018-04-21T11:14:35Z MichaelRaskin: For a safer bet one could talk about the full language being available at compile-time for code transformation 2018-04-21T11:16:29Z light2yellow: MichaelRaskin: I read it in one of the papers few days ago and can confirm if-then-else is first introduced in lisp 2018-04-21T11:18:38Z ecraven: what did the other languages have before that? 2018-04-21T11:18:38Z light2yellow: jdz: thank you, I'll check it out later 2018-04-21T11:18:42Z phoe: s/Fortran/ALGOL/ perhaps, but Lisp was first to have it 2018-04-21T11:18:52Z phoe: ecraven: procedures I think, and jumps 2018-04-21T11:19:05Z phoe: I believe GOTO was flourishing there 2018-04-21T11:19:06Z light2yellow: yes, goto 2018-04-21T11:19:17Z ecraven: well, you need some sort of "jump if ..." 2018-04-21T11:19:29Z ecraven: unless you use calculated gotos, like APL :P 2018-04-21T11:20:17Z jdz: Conditional jumps, like in assembly. 2018-04-21T11:20:34Z jdz: s/assembly/machine code 2018-04-21T11:21:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T11:21:34Z ecraven: ok, that's what I assumed ;) very interesting 2018-04-21T11:28:08Z Murii_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-21T11:33:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T11:33:58Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T11:35:24Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T11:38:33Z oxo1o1o1o_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T11:40:04Z markong joined #lisp 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peer) 2018-04-21T15:06:08Z phenoble joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:06:14Z phenoble: Hi everyone 2018-04-21T15:07:58Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:08:10Z phoe: hey phenoble 2018-04-21T15:08:40Z phenoble: I have a piece of lisp code in front of me that does some text/dom processing on (html-) mails. I am having problems with the output of german Sonderzeichen e.g. ß 2018-04-21T15:09:49Z phoe: phenoble: hmm. Which implementation do you use? What libraries do you use for DOM processing? 2018-04-21T15:10:08Z phenoble: Specifically, it looks as if (with-output-to-string) would return them using some kind of quoted printable representation 2018-04-21T15:10:31Z phoe: phenoble: can you pastebin exactly what you get? 2018-04-21T15:10:42Z phoe: use https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit for Lisp highlighting 2018-04-21T15:10:57Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T15:11:11Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T15:12:40Z phenoble: I must confess that I have not narrowed down the problem yet. I was hoping for this to be some obvious locale/encoding thing, fixable by adding something into .sbclrc . 2018-04-21T15:12:48Z phenoble: Is that possible? 2018-04-21T15:13:22Z beach: phenoble: If you read such a character and then output it to a string, it will be in the string unmodified. 2018-04-21T15:13:25Z phenoble: I am not at all set-up to do serious debugging. The code is quite involved. 2018-04-21T15:13:45Z beach: phenoble: So I don't think WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING is a problem. 2018-04-21T15:13:48Z phenoble: (in lisp) 2018-04-21T15:14:09Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T15:14:19Z phenoble: beach: that's what I thought, but could not rule out. Thank you for the information. 2018-04-21T15:14:25Z beach: Sure. 2018-04-21T15:14:41Z beach: Now the question is what the input looks like if you are processing email. 2018-04-21T15:14:43Z phoe: phenoble: give us the input and the output to your code. 2018-04-21T15:14:46Z beach: That is not obvious at all. 2018-04-21T15:17:04Z beach: phenoble: What I mean is, if you do (with-output-to-string (var) (format var "~c" #\ß)), you get "ß". 2018-04-21T15:17:55Z phenoble: beach: yes, I understood. I am working on figuring out what the exact input to the call(s) is. 2018-04-21T15:18:06Z tessier joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:18:06Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2018-04-21T15:18:06Z tessier joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:21:49Z phenoble: So the argument to with-output-to-string is not bound at the point of invocation. This confuses me. 2018-04-21T15:22:07Z beach: The VAR, you mean? 2018-04-21T15:22:20Z beach: WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING binds it to a string stream. 2018-04-21T15:22:24Z phenoble: (with-output-to-string (out) (format out "div.~a { ~a }~%" class-if body-style)) 2018-04-21T15:22:52Z phenoble: s/class-if/class-id/ 2018-04-21T15:23:48Z beach: Oh, so you didn't write this code? 2018-04-21T15:23:56Z phenoble: beach: no 2018-04-21T15:24:11Z beach: They could be bound by some surrounding macro. 2018-04-21T15:24:41Z beach: ... as in (with-this-kind-of-html ... (with-output-to-string ...)) 2018-04-21T15:24:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T15:25:16Z beach: Or they could be special variables, but that would be strange. 2018-04-21T15:25:21Z phenoble: Plausible. I think this is using the Allegro library. 2018-04-21T15:25:38Z phoe: phenoble: is this some kind of publicly available library that you use? 2018-04-21T15:25:39Z phenoble: Could be here: (dom:append-child style-element (dom:create-text-node doc (with-output-to-string (out) .....) 2018-04-21T15:26:59Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:27:24Z phenoble: By the way, this here is the code: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style 2018-04-21T15:28:03Z phenoble: format-html-email/format.lisp:313 2018-04-21T15:29:06Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:30:35Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:30:36Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-21T15:30:36Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:31:09Z phenoble: The place where this quoting/encoding problem happens in in format.lisp:219 . 2018-04-21T15:31:20Z phenoble: But I doubt that any of you want to dig into this ^^ 2018-04-21T15:32:25Z phenoble: I would have to get to know the libraries, and some common lisp idioms to get to the bottom of this I think. Was hoping for an easier way. 2018-04-21T15:32:36Z phenoble: Well, thank you anyway. 2018-04-21T15:32:38Z phoe: phenoble: I still don't know what input you give it and what output you get 2018-04-21T15:33:03Z phoe: loke: ^ someone needs support with your library 2018-04-21T15:33:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T15:33:33Z phenoble: phoe: I can't tell you. Sorry. 2018-04-21T15:33:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T15:34:06Z phoe: phenoble: I see. Can you prepare some input that isn't confidential but still shows the behaviour you describe? 2018-04-21T15:34:21Z phoe: Since it isn't about the exact content of the mail, it's about reproducing the issue. 2018-04-21T15:34:56Z phenoble: phoe: Sure, I'll put something together. 2018-04-21T15:36:12Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I say my stream has element-type '(unsigned-byte 32), and I do write-byte on it, will it write 32 bits? 2018-04-21T16:27:16Z phoe: clhs write-byte 2018-04-21T16:27:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_by.htm 2018-04-21T16:27:30Z sea: It says 'affected by element-type', so it seems so, but I wanted to ask to be sure 2018-04-21T16:27:39Z phoe: sea: yep, WRITE-BYTE will accept an (unsigned-byte 32) and write it 2018-04-21T16:27:46Z sea: I do remember old textbooks had 'byte' as an arbitrary amount that you could redefine the length of, so it makes sense 2018-04-21T16:27:55Z sea: okay thanks 2018-04-21T16:28:27Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-21T16:28:41Z phoe: wait a second 2018-04-21T16:28:54Z phoe: what will happen if we use the code from the CLHS example? 2018-04-21T16:29:00Z phoe: how many bits will get written in that case? 2018-04-21T16:29:17Z phoe: since UNSIGNED-BYTE is used as a type, without specialization 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#lisp 2018-04-21T18:20:26Z pjb: sea: more precisely, the standard guarantees you that when you (write-byte (the (unsigned-byte 32) 42)), then if you (read-byte) the same file with the same element-type and external-format, then you get back the same (unsigned-byte 32). (ie. 42 in this example). 2018-04-21T18:20:41Z pjb: sea: we cannot tell, from the standard, that only 32-bits are written. 2018-04-21T18:20:50Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:20:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:21:25Z pjb: sea: eg. you may have choosen, or the :default external format may be a compressed format, so fewer bits would be used to store some (unsigned-byte 32), or more bits for some others. 2018-04-21T18:21:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:22:39Z pjb: sea: or you may be storing your (unsigned-byte 32) on a devices that stores units of 10 decimal-digits. or four 9-bit bytes = 36 bits. 2018-04-21T18:23:01Z pjb: sea: see for example what sbcl does on (unsigned-byte 2) streams, vs. what clisp does. 2018-04-21T18:23:29Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:25:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T18:26:04Z pjb: sea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY 2018-04-21T18:29:32Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T18:30:27Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-21T18:33:00Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:33:52Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:38:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:39:12Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:42:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-21T18:44:09Z cpt_nemo_ is now known as cpt_nemo 2018-04-21T18:46:00Z kark joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:48:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T18:49:33Z siraben` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T18:53:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T18:56:25Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:00:24Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:01:04Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:02:36Z dieggsy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T19:04:06Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:04:15Z dieggsy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T19:08:11Z trocado joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:08:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:10:24Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:24:23Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T19:28:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:29:01Z Bronsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T19:30:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:32:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:33:27Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T19:33:43Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:36:32Z lnostdal quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-21T19:42:25Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:44:51Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:46:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:48:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T19:53:50Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-21T19:58:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:00:04Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:03:44Z stux|RC-- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-21T20:04:22Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:04:48Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:05:36Z tomlukeywood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:07:23Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T20:07:34Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:07:42Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:08:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:09:00Z cage__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T20:10:24Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2018-04-21T20:10:24Z simplegauss quit (Quit: Bye) 2018-04-21T20:10:34Z sveit joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:11:05Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:13:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-21T20:14:33Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:15:08Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-21T20:23:19Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-21T20:23:44Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2018-04-21T20:28:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:30:26Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-21T20:33:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-21T20:38:01Z jeosol_ joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:38:33Z jeosol_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-21T20:42:38Z ak5 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:44:14Z ak5 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-21T20:48:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:51:47Z phenoble quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-21T20:52:23Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:53:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T20:56:05Z Murii_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-21T20:56:51Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-21T20:56:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-21T20:57:01Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? 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I was hoping defsystem-depends-on would solve my problem, but it doesn't seem to work as expected. 2018-04-22T04:35:53Z slyrus_: Is there a good example of how one uses defsystem-depends-on to load a library that defines a new asdf component type to be used in the original ASDF system definition? 2018-04-22T04:36:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:38:19Z logicmoo is now known as dmiles 2018-04-22T04:38:32Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:41:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-22T04:41:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T04:42:51Z slyrus_: morning beach. Ah, if I quote my symbol name from the package that doesn't yet exist (but is named in the defsystem-depends-on list), then things work. 2018-04-22T04:42:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T04:43:05Z slyrus_: sorry, there should have been a return after "beach". 2018-04-22T04:43:13Z beach: I got it. 2018-04-22T04:43:23Z edgar-rft: (return-from beach) 2018-04-22T04:46:04Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:46:12Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T04:46:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:46:44Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:51:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T04:52:06Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T04:52:18Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:55:29Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:57:15Z rippa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T04:57:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:00:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:06:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:06:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:06:47Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:10:25Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T05:11:29Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:11:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:12:43Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:13:27Z kerrhau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:14:11Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:17:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:18:57Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:22:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:26:24Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:26:25Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:27:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:28:15Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:31:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:38:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:39:32Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:40:54Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:42:44Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:42:50Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:44:18Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:47:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:47:31Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T05:48:06Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T05:50:52Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:51:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:54:22Z dessm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T05:56:27Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T05:57:26Z FareTower joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:57:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T05:59:13Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:00:49Z stacksmith quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:02:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:04:48Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T06:05:17Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-22T06:06:03Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-22T06:06:21Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:08:29Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-22T06:09:51Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:12:57Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-22T06:16:43Z SaganMan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-22T06:17:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:18:45Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:22:12Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T06:22:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:24:49Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-22T06:28:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:32:15Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:33:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:36:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:48:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:49:07Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:52:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T06:54:18Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-22T06:54:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:56:02Z logoman joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:57:10Z mflem quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-22T06:57:30Z logoman: Could someone please explain if lambda functions are more than just anonymous functions. If not please help me understand it. 2018-04-22T06:58:12Z logoman: I'm new in CL so i request you to keep the explanation simple 2018-04-22T06:58:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-22T06:58:36Z phoe: logoman: more than just anonymous functions? what do you mean? 2018-04-22T06:58:40Z phoe: they *are* anonymous functions. 2018-04-22T06:59:08Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-22T06:59:18Z phoe: (funcall (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 40 80) ;=> 120 2018-04-22T06:59:21Z logoman: I mean other than being anonymous functions is there more to lambdas 2018-04-22T07:00:27Z logoman: I asked this question because somewhere i read that java's lambda are real lambda because it is just a syntactic sugar 2018-04-22T07:01:02Z logoman: Are *not real 2018-04-22T07:01:59Z phoe: we're not in Java here. in Lisp, anonymous functions are as function...like? as named functions. 2018-04-22T07:02:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:03:06Z phoe: other than being anonymous functions, there's this little tidbit that macro LAMBDA expands into FUNCTION lambda, so (lambda () 42) expands into # 2018-04-22T07:03:11Z phoe: #'(lambda () 42) 2018-04-22T07:03:20Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:03:27Z phoe: which is then treated as a special form naming a function. 2018-04-22T07:03:47Z logoman: Ok, thank you 2018-04-22T07:04:11Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:04:25Z logoman: If i say lambda is syntactic sugar for function. Is that correct? 2018-04-22T07:04:47Z phoe: nope 2018-04-22T07:05:07Z edgar-rft: no, because in Lisp an anonymous function can also be stored in a variable 2018-04-22T07:06:01Z phoe: FUNCTION is a special operator which evaluates to the functional object 2018-04-22T07:07:01Z logoman: Could you please point me to a good link so i can understand lambdas better and properly 2018-04-22T07:07:33Z phoe: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/functions.html is decent 2018-04-22T07:08:19Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T07:08:25Z phoe: ...but https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/functions.html is a bit better 2018-04-22T07:08:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:08:39Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:09:03Z logoman: Thank you sir 2018-04-22T07:09:11Z phoe: no problem 2018-04-22T07:11:24Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T07:12:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:13:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:13:37Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:15:58Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:16:06Z nika quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T07:17:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:19:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:19:20Z wildbartty is now known as nah 2018-04-22T07:19:36Z nah is now known as fredofrodo 2018-04-22T07:19:54Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:19:56Z fredofrodo is now known as wildbartty 2018-04-22T07:19:57Z elfmacs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:20:21Z fredofrodo joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:21:19Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:21:43Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:21:43Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T07:22:49Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:23:12Z nika_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T07:23:17Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:23:42Z logoman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T07:23:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:25:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:27:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:28:24Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:30:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:33:44Z wildbartty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:33:45Z fredofrodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:33:49Z hhdave_ quit (Quit: hhdave_) 2018-04-22T07:33:58Z elfmacs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:34:38Z khrbt_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:35:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:37:08Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:37:49Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:38:08Z fredofrodo joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:39:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:41:09Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:41:52Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:43:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:44:22Z phax joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:46:41Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T07:49:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T07:52:57Z FareTower quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T07:54:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T07:55:52Z khrbt quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-22T07:59:18Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T07:59:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:07:19Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T08:07:29Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:09:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:10:11Z pjb` joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:11:13Z zmisc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:12:44Z beach: It is interesting that a constructor for functions appears to be more difficult to understand than (say) a constructor for class instances. 2018-04-22T08:13:04Z phoe: beach: it was the same way to me. 2018-04-22T08:13:33Z phoe: I was never taught to understand functions as first-class citizens. It was only after Lisp when I figured out anonymous functions. 2018-04-22T08:13:38Z beach: I believe you. And probably to me too (I can't remember). I just find it interesting. 2018-04-22T08:14:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:14:25Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:14:25Z phoe: The way I figured it out was, I realized that a closure around a function is equivalent to an "object" "around" a method. 2018-04-22T08:14:42Z beach: Oh, THAT's interesting. 2018-04-22T08:14:43Z phoe: The object and the closure both provide state, and the anonymous function and the method both provide code. 2018-04-22T08:15:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:15:25Z phoe: That way, a closure's variable and an object's slot are equivalent, and the function closing over the variable and the object's method are equivalent. 2018-04-22T08:15:50Z phoe: This one, I got from watching SICP lectures where they were constructing meaningful objects that way. 2018-04-22T08:16:04Z beach: I see, yes. 2018-04-22T08:16:20Z phoe: And, because of that, a function is just another object whose "slots" you can set. 2018-04-22T08:16:47Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:16:51Z beach: Mhm. 2018-04-22T08:16:54Z phoe: By means of a closure, that is. 2018-04-22T08:17:37Z phoe: (defun make-adder (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) <- X is a "slot" that you can set. And once you set it, you get a function, an "object", whose main "method" is being funcalled. 2018-04-22T08:18:34Z phoe: Bad English, one second: 2018-04-22T08:18:42Z phoe: ...whose main "method" is, to be funcalled. 2018-04-22T08:19:37Z phoe: In Java-like notation, that would be int argument = 42; function.funcall(argument); or something. 2018-04-22T08:19:46Z beach: Yes, I understand. I was just surprised because I am pretty sure I learned functional programming before I learned object-oriented programming. Or perhaps simultaneously. 2018-04-22T08:22:18Z phoe: beach: I learned OO before functional. 2018-04-22T08:22:35Z beach: Yes, I just realized that that's the usual situation these days. 2018-04-22T08:23:24Z beach: I had a course (second year at the university, I think) that introduced Lisp, Simula, and APL, as examples of three different paradigms. 2018-04-22T08:23:25Z phoe: Well, in schools and universities, that might be the case. Functional programmers are rather strong nowadays though, mostly because we have the hardware to properly support them now and that businesses application are becoming functional-oriented to deal with complexity. 2018-04-22T08:24:27Z phoe: On our uni, it is the same, we are introduced to C++, Java, then to Scheme, Perl, Haskell, Erlang, SQL, and I think a couple others that I can't remember now. 2018-04-22T08:24:38Z phoe: Order of languages is accidental. 2018-04-22T08:25:16Z phoe: I mean, uhh. I meant that I didn't say them in any meaningful order, othen than C++ and Java which are the first ones. 2018-04-22T08:27:42Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:29:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:33:28Z solyd quit (Quit: solyd) 2018-04-22T08:33:29Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2018-04-22T08:34:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:35:59Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:36:42Z pjb: beach: perhaps, because there's some confusion between functions and closures? 2018-04-22T08:37:12Z pjb: COMPILE is the constructor for functions. FUNCTION is the constructor for closures. <- notice the confusion in the terms. 2018-04-22T08:38:17Z phoe: pjb: COMPILE is the constructor for compiled-functions to be precise. 2018-04-22T08:38:21Z pjb: Also, compare: (funcall (let ((x 42)) (compile nil (lambda () x)))) vs. (funcall (let ((x 42)) (function (lambda () x)))). 2018-04-22T08:38:25Z pjb: phoe: exact. 2018-04-22T08:38:37Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:39:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:39:35Z pjb: oops! I meant: (funcall (let ((x 42)) (compile nil '(lambda () x)))) 2018-04-22T08:39:39Z phoe: pjb: wait a second, in the first example, LET ... evaluates to a closure, too. 2018-04-22T08:39:41Z phoe: oh right 2018-04-22T08:40:15Z pjb: Yes. I constructed a closure, and then compiled it, when I wanted to construct a pure function with a free variable. 2018-04-22T08:40:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:44:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:46:04Z LdBeth: In Common Lisp everything is an object 2018-04-22T08:49:34Z Shinmera: Concepts aren't objects in CL. 2018-04-22T08:50:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T08:50:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:50:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:50:33Z phoe: (defclass concept () ()) 2018-04-22T08:50:41Z LdBeth: Why not? 2018-04-22T08:51:13Z Shinmera: Because they're not? Things like the concept of evaluation are not objects, but they're part of CL nonetheless. 2018-04-22T08:51:55Z LdBeth: make EVAL a method? 2018-04-22T08:52:08Z Shinmera: That doesn't make the concept an object. 2018-04-22T08:53:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:53:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:55:07Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T08:57:51Z jackdaniel: http://l1sp.org/search?q=concept -> no results found :) 2018-04-22T08:57:59Z jackdaniel: good morning from poland 2018-04-22T08:58:28Z Shinmera: Ready to hack the day away? 2018-04-22T08:59:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T08:59:10Z jackdaniel mumbles something about looking in idiom dictionary, brb 2018-04-22T09:00:43Z pjb: Shinmera: (defvar *the-concept-of-evaluation* (function eval)) 2018-04-22T09:00:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:01:05Z jackdaniel: hm, sure 2018-04-22T09:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:06:22Z nika quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:06:50Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:07:37Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:08:22Z MasouDa_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T09:08:28Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T09:13:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:15:49Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:16:53Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:17:40Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:17:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:18:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: (defclass concept () ((thing :initarg thing))) (make-instance 'concept :thing #'eval) 2018-04-22T09:18:51Z Shinmera: Y'all are missing the point but I knew I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. 2018-04-22T09:19:27Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:20:56Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T09:21:43Z jackdaniel: the point is that not everything in CL is an object (i.e some rules defining it are not), recognizing a joke is a valuable skill ;-) 2018-04-22T09:22:01Z jackdaniel: I think most of us "got" you 2018-04-22T09:22:22Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:22:27Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:22:31Z phoe: Shinmera: (defclass point ((thing :initarg thing))) (make-instance 'point :thing "he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place") 2018-04-22T09:22:36Z Shinmera: Bad jokes are indistinguishable from honesty. 2018-04-22T09:23:39Z pjb: Concept is so vague. But there are indeed several things in CL that are not lisp objects. For example, multiple values. 2018-04-22T09:24:24Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:24:56Z pjb: Notice that it is somehow in the essence of multiple values of not being lisp objects. 2018-04-22T09:25:05Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:25:24Z pjb: If you could pass and return multiple values as a single lisp objects, they wouldn't be multiple values anymore. 2018-04-22T09:26:11Z LdBeth: Can’t multiple values be an instance with slots (but not necessarily) 2018-04-22T09:26:16Z pjb: There's also the fact that CL types are not first class objects in the sense that you cannot have a reference to a CL type, but only to a CL type specifier (which is a sexp). 2018-04-22T09:26:39Z pjb: LdBeth: You have to convert them, eg. into a list, with (multiple-value-list (truncate 10 3)) #| --> (3 1) |# 2018-04-22T09:28:02Z Shinmera: pjb: A "return value" in general is not tangible. As in, the return value(s) evaluate to values, but you can't grab "returns" in general. 2018-04-22T09:29:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:29:59Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:30:16Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:31:05Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:34:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:35:20Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:37:38Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:39:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:40:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:40:54Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:43:27Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:43:39Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:48:16Z ZigPaw joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:49:03Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:49:05Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:49:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:50:21Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:50:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:51:26Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-22T09:52:06Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:54:24Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:54:58Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:55:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T09:57:21Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:58:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:59:15Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T09:59:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:01:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:02:00Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:02:28Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T10:02:48Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:02:53Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:02:55Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:03:05Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:03:35Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:03:41Z phoe: I can't find the exact part of the spec that states the following: when the Lisp reader encounters "FOO:BAR" and package FOO exists but has no external symbol named BAR, an error is signaled. 2018-04-22T10:06:02Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:06:32Z phoe: The closest thing I have found is 2018-04-22T10:06:34Z phoe: clhs 2.3.5 2018-04-22T10:06:34Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm 2018-04-22T10:07:23Z Shinmera: well it specifically states that it must be an external symbol 2018-04-22T10:07:27Z phoe: The pattern numbered 2 is what I am looking for, but it says nothing about what happens if the symbol is not found. 2018-04-22T10:07:44Z Shinmera: well then the pattern is invalid 2018-04-22T10:08:11Z phoe: "All other uses of package markers within names of symbols are not defined by this standard but are reserved for implementation-dependent use." 2018-04-22T10:08:22Z phoe: I kind of doubt if "FOO:BAR" in that case would be valid for implementation-dependent use 2018-04-22T10:08:24Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:08:32Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:11:10Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:13:36Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:15:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:16:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:16:10Z solyd joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:19:06Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:20:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:20:49Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:21:53Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:23:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T10:24:18Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:24:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:25:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:26:14Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:26:41Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:27:07Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:27:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:29:58Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:31:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:32:05Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:32:17Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:33:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:35:06Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T10:35:32Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:38:29Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:41:03Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:43:45Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:44:17Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:47:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:48:19Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:49:30Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:51:48Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:52:19Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:53:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:54:50Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T10:57:59Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T10:59:33Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-22T11:00:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:02:29Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:02:37Z beach: LdBeth: Phrases like "in , everything is a(n) " are usually meaningless. If you refine it so that it is correct for Common Lisp, you get "in Common Lisp every datum is an object" which is obviously true because the glossary says they are synonyms. 2018-04-22T11:03:18Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T11:03:21Z beach: LdBeth: But there are several things that aren't objects in Common Lisp, like comments in source code, for instance, or the result of reading something that is preceded by #(or). 2018-04-22T11:05:02Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:05:27Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:05:57Z beach: Multiple values represent another example, as pjb pointed out. 2018-04-22T11:06:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: >people use `thing` as arguments for their joke classes 2018-04-22T11:06:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hey, I made an anti pattern! 2018-04-22T11:07:01Z LdBeth: beach: I thought a "thing" in a language is something hold a reference 2018-04-22T11:07:24Z beach: LdBeth: But then you are again in synonym territory. Every object is an object. 2018-04-22T11:07:41Z beach: LdBeth: So the phrase is meaningless. 2018-04-22T11:08:41Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:10:25Z LdBeth: Right. 2018-04-22T11:13:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:17:32Z phoe: Hmm. 2018-04-22T11:17:50Z elderK quit (Quit: ZzZzZzZzZZz) 2018-04-22T11:18:00Z phoe: I'm refactoring CCLDOC now, and I need to be able to check if a condition is of type "external symbol BAR not found in package FOO". 2018-04-22T11:18:10Z phoe: I know that these should be all READER-ERRORs but I want to be more specific. 2018-04-22T11:18:24Z phoe: This will most likely mean that I come into implementation-defined territory. 2018-04-22T11:18:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:19:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:21:32Z tomlukeywood joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:23:06Z billybob joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:23:15Z billybob is now known as gogsismycity 2018-04-22T11:23:35Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:23:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:24:38Z gogsismycity quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T11:26:36Z phoe: Is there any service that will allow me to quickly evaluate some code on X different implementations? 2018-04-22T11:27:22Z phoe: I literally want just a codesnippet that will attempt to read a non-existent external symbol and then print information about the condition that gets signaled. 2018-04-22T11:29:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:29:46Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:29:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T11:30:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T11:30:30Z crsc quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-22T11:31:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:31:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2018-04-22T11:31:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:33:43Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:34:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:36:56Z Potato` joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:38:09Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:39:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:42:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:43:45Z crsc joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:43:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-22T11:43:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:45:44Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:48:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:49:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:50:40Z tomlukeywood quit (Quit: tomlukeywood) 2018-04-22T11:52:41Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T11:54:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T11:58:09Z phoe: https://github.com/cl-test-grid/cl-test-grid/issues/35 2018-04-22T11:58:22Z phoe: Welp, maybe they'll be able to help me. 2018-04-22T11:59:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:00:01Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:03:49Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:04:32Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:04:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:06:14Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:06:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:06:58Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:13:51Z impaktor left #lisp 2018-04-22T12:15:02Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:15:14Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-22T12:16:01Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:16:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:18:23Z ft joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:18:38Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:19:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:19:45Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:20:36Z dddddd_ is now known as dddddd 2018-04-22T12:21:03Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:24:33Z Shinmera: phoe: pjb wrote a cl-all script, but it'll still require you to have all implementations installed locally. 2018-04-22T12:24:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:25:23Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:25:30Z phoe: Shinmera: which I don't have at the moment. I'd need to set up an environment myself to test that, and it seems a little bit too much for a simple snippet like this. 2018-04-22T12:25:41Z Shinmera: roswell can help 2018-04-22T12:31:43Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T12:31:55Z python476 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T12:39:38Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:39:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:44:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:46:25Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:50:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:54:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T12:57:14Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-22T12:58:15Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:00:32Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:07:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:08:47Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:08:50Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:10:05Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:10:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:10:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:11:36Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:13:03Z Potato` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T13:13:45Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:15:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:17:57Z Achylles_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:19:49Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:19:53Z ghard``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T13:22:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:23:01Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:23:27Z Achylles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:23:36Z Achylles_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:25:59Z pierpal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T13:29:36Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T13:30:38Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:32:35Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T13:33:39Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:34:50Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:44:22Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T13:54:29Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:54:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T13:55:24Z jeosol: morning everyone 2018-04-22T13:55:35Z beach: Hello jeosol. 2018-04-22T13:55:51Z jeosol: morning beach, long time. 2018-04-22T13:56:17Z jeosol: been away hacking on my challenge code. very stable, had to fix many bugs, deadline soon 2018-04-22T13:58:10Z jeosol: i have a question, for those who have used clsql and postmodern for use with postgres. I have used clsql more but since i am subscribed to postmodern's mail list, it seems there is a lot of activity there 2018-04-22T13:58:12Z beach: Well, many of us have been away for some time, attending ELS. 2018-04-22T13:58:23Z jeosol: especially to meet new postgres features 2018-04-22T13:58:50Z jeosol: ok, beach, i wish I could have attended, I did plan to, but this challenge has given me many grey hairs already 2018-04-22T13:59:08Z jeosol: definitely, next one, I will look to attend, and may be have a contribution 2018-04-22T13:59:52Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:00:46Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:02:43Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:03:11Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:08:25Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:09:21Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2018-04-22T14:09:21Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:12:57Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:13:17Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:15:16Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:15:16Z drmeister: I have auto completion enabled for slime - and I use M-tab to activate it. That's normal right? There is no good reason to bind it to tab because tab is used for indentation. Is that correct? 2018-04-22T14:15:54Z drmeister: I ask because I've added tab completion to cl-jupyter notebooks and I use tab there. I'm rethinking key bindings. 2018-04-22T14:16:53Z MichaelRaskin: In the web browser Tab could also mean focus control… 2018-04-22T14:17:55Z pw_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:18:14Z MichaelRaskin: I guess the main example of using Tab for completion is interactive shell (readline etc.) 2018-04-22T14:18:17Z drmeister: In jupyter notebooks it is overridden then - it is used for tab completion. 2018-04-22T14:18:18Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/x9FoQOu.png 2018-04-22T14:18:53Z pw_ left #lisp 2018-04-22T14:19:54Z MichaelRaskin: Oh well, if Jupyter makes a questionable choice… 2018-04-22T14:20:38Z drmeister: Thank you - that's a valuable perspective - that jupyter might be making a poor choice and it's best not to propagate it. 2018-04-22T14:21:12Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if you integrate with it, it is reasonable to follow its conventions 2018-04-22T14:22:38Z MichaelRaskin: I am not sure what is a _good_ choice in the browser. Alt-Tab is annoying when it is window switch, Tab is focus control, Ctrl-Tab is browser Tab control, Shift is a modifier to switch direction in these cases. 2018-04-22T14:23:10Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:23:26Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:23:44Z drmeister: We need more keys - damnit! 2018-04-22T14:23:52Z MichaelRaskin: I use Ctrl-Space for in-browser completion, which is not obvious for people who haven't used enough IDEs with that choice. Also, catching Ctrl-Space correctly has to be tested separately on all the platforms. 2018-04-22T14:23:54Z python476 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T14:24:41Z MichaelRaskin: When I was using an Asus 15.6'' notebook, it was nice to rebind the numpad to arrows and a ton of modifiers… 2018-04-22T14:25:14Z pjb: phoe: you probably need to use your own lisp reader (eg. com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader), so you can define your own set of precise conditions. 2018-04-22T14:25:38Z jeosol: I believe some of you know my Mike Maul, or maintainer of CLML. I was hoping to do some ML tutorials and still undecided on the libraries to use. Someone here (jmercoursis(?)) suggested clasp 2018-04-22T14:25:39Z pjb: phoe: you may also want to revise the CL standard, to define a precise (potential) condition ontology. 2018-04-22T14:26:14Z pjb: and using your own lisp reader (or at least, your own reader macros), will let you define comments as lisp objects, which may be useful when you want to process them, as in documentation generator. 2018-04-22T14:26:19Z phoe: pjb: I can't, yet. 2018-04-22T14:26:27Z phoe: scymtym: I will think about it. To give you some context, I am refactoring CCLDoc which uses the standard Lisp reader for the time being to parse files. I'm cleaning up and documenting the code for the time being; changing the reader would be a pretty big change and I don't want to do such big leaps just yet. 2018-04-22T14:26:32Z phoe: uh, not scymtym - pjb 2018-04-22T14:26:33Z phoe: sorry 2018-04-22T14:27:38Z pjb: phoe: you can do it by defining a reader macro bound to all constituent characters, to read symbols. 2018-04-22T14:28:02Z phoe: that would uglify the code much more than I would like. 2018-04-22T14:28:19Z pjb: It would be hidden in a nice abstraction :-) 2018-04-22T14:29:12Z pjb: This is the standard hack for such things. The alternative, is to patch all the CL implementations to provide a readtable-parse-token function, or something similar. 2018-04-22T14:29:27Z pjb: function -> accessor. 2018-04-22T14:30:38Z phoe: gah 2018-04-22T14:30:40Z phoe: clhs make-package 2018-04-22T14:30:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm 2018-04-22T14:30:48Z phoe: Side Effects: none. 2018-04-22T14:31:04Z Xach: hee hee 2018-04-22T14:33:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-22T14:33:42Z jeosol: nice 2018-04-22T14:35:06Z phoe: I wish it had no side effects 2018-04-22T14:35:21Z mfiano: Does anyone know how hard it would be to calculate a list of all the package names a particular system defines apart from parsing all the lisp files myself? My use-case is that I need to feed them into to the SBCL deterministic profiler, and there are currently about 50 packages in this project that are constantly changing/being added so manually listing them is a no go. To make matters worse there are multiple 2018-04-22T14:35:23Z mfiano: several where packages are defined, not just one. 2018-04-22T14:35:58Z mfiano: multiple files rather 2018-04-22T14:36:24Z phoe: mfiano: everything can define a new package. The best thing you can do is load all the dependencies of a system, take a snapshot of the package list, load your system, take a new snapshot of the package list, compare the two snapshots. 2018-04-22T14:36:45Z mfiano: That is a decent idea 2018-04-22T14:36:46Z phoe: I bet you can do that from ASDF level. 2018-04-22T14:36:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:37:08Z mfiano: Come to think of it, I think Shimera did something similar with Staple documentation generation 2018-04-22T14:37:20Z mfiano: Shinmera. Man I can't type today 2018-04-22T14:37:51Z phoe: I have just made the most edge-case type of Common Lisp library that I can think of 2018-04-22T14:37:55Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/external-symbol-not-found 2018-04-22T14:38:37Z Shinmera: mfiano: Staple does record packages as defined by systems, yes. 2018-04-22T14:38:56Z mfiano: Thanks 2018-04-22T14:39:03Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/recording.lisp 2018-04-22T14:39:30Z Shinmera: This is why you should only load staple and then just run generate on your system, so that it ensures the other system is loaded later and the packages can be recorded accurately. 2018-04-22T14:40:10Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: not crazy enough 2018-04-22T14:40:46Z MichaelRaskin: Wouldn't it work to just cause the error (using your examples) and save the type (at load-time)? 2018-04-22T14:41:14Z MichaelRaskin: Then it would automatically port itself to most implementations 2018-04-22T14:42:33Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:42:53Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: not really. 2018-04-22T14:43:03Z phoe: You don't want to match all SIMPLE-ERRORs. 2018-04-22T14:43:30Z phoe: Because of how the implementations handle this type of errors, I actually have to do string matching. 2018-04-22T14:44:01Z Xach: phoe: i have found it profitable to do string-matching of pretty error strings and use satisfies types for error handling. 2018-04-22T14:44:20Z Xach: phoe: and if in the glorious future the string matching is unnecessary, the satisfies check goes away but the error handling code remains the same. 2018-04-22T14:44:52Z phoe: Xach: I see. I have a satisfies type in there. 2018-04-22T14:44:52Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:45:20Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T14:46:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:46:16Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-22T14:46:24Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:48:05Z phoe: gaaaaaaaaaaaah 2018-04-22T14:48:23Z phoe: there is no specific condition type for "package FOO not found" errors! 2018-04-22T14:49:43Z phoe: Luckily I can check if (find-package (package-error-package foo)) is NIL. 2018-04-22T14:51:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T14:53:27Z pjb: mfiano: stricto sensu, computing this list of packages is equivalent to the halting problem. 2018-04-22T14:53:53Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: hm, cannot you just test all the natural cases, then string-match them, extract package/symbol names and verify what is going on? 2018-04-22T14:54:08Z pjb: mfiano: but if you restrict yourself to the set of package defined effectively by a system when it is loaded in a specific implementation on a specific platform on a specific computer, then you can just use list-all-packages before and after, and use set-difference. 2018-04-22T14:54:35Z mfiano: Yup, thank you. 2018-04-22T14:55:22Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: hm 2018-04-22T14:55:56Z phoe: theoretically I could, but I have no idea what *really* caused the condition to be signaled. 2018-04-22T14:56:18Z phoe: All I get is a condition which can be of any type, have any kind of readers, and may or may not have sensible arguments to retrieve with them. 2018-04-22T14:56:58Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if there is simple-error and someone throws simple-error with the same text for a different reason, you have lost anyway 2018-04-22T14:57:30Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Errors are not "throw"n in Common Lisp. They are "signal"ed. 2018-04-22T14:57:56Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T14:57:57Z phoe: Yep, that's why I copy what implementations do right now. The only sane thing to do would be to submit PRs to all the implementations so they instead signal specific condition types. 2018-04-22T14:58:16Z MichaelRaskin: Ah, yes, my bad. Given that it is feasible to throw a simple-error in the Common Lisp sense, I should mind the words. 2018-04-22T14:58:19Z phoe: But that won't really happen, I think. Mostly because I don't have the energy or will to do that. 2018-04-22T14:58:21Z pjb: At best, they're received and pulled by the handlers, but they don't fly all over the place. 2018-04-22T14:58:37Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: backtrace parsing… 2018-04-22T14:59:10Z beach: MichaelRaskin: It is not feasible to throw a simple error in Common Lisp. 2018-04-22T14:59:17Z phoe: (catch 'foo (throw 'foo (make-condition 'error))) 2018-04-22T14:59:23Z phoe: hey I'm throwing errors 2018-04-22T14:59:30Z beach: Yeah, OK, fine. 2018-04-22T14:59:35Z pjb: :-) 2018-04-22T14:59:37Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: my solution is cleaner than any sort of backtrace parsing. 2018-04-22T15:00:14Z MichaelRaskin: Well, backtrace parsing would allow to punt some of portability to trivial-backtrace 2018-04-22T15:00:35Z MichaelRaskin: But it is probably simpler to just check the same list of implementations 2018-04-22T15:00:37Z pjb: phoe: technically you threw the symbol. (let ((e (make-condition 'error))) (catch e (throw e 'hey))) #| --> hey |# 2018-04-22T15:00:45Z MichaelRaskin: And pray it is not version-dependent 2018-04-22T15:00:49Z beach: Thanks pjb. 2018-04-22T15:00:51Z phoe: pjb: wait, no, I did not 2018-04-22T15:01:05Z pjb: you did. What's thrown is the object, not the optional result. 2018-04-22T15:01:08Z phoe: (catch 'foo (throw 'foo (make-condition 'error))) ;=> # 2018-04-22T15:01:25Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:01:34Z phoe: oh wait, correct 2018-04-22T15:01:46Z phoe: I threw the symbol, and CATCH evaluated to the result. 2018-04-22T15:01:46Z pjb: So you could throw errors, but you would have to instantiate them before, and catch each of them. 2018-04-22T15:02:07Z pjb: throw evaluates the result (in the lexical scope of the throw call). 2018-04-22T15:02:35Z phoe: pjb: nope, it does not work that way. 2018-04-22T15:02:36Z siraben quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T15:02:59Z phoe: (catch #1=(make-condition 'error) (throw #1# "look ma, i'm throwing errors")) signals an error on SBCL for me. 2018-04-22T15:03:11Z phoe: "attempt to THROW to a tag that does not exist" 2018-04-22T15:03:44Z pjb: (let ((x 42)) (catch 'foo (let ((x 33)) (throw 'foo x)))) #| --> 33 |# 2018-04-22T15:03:46Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: I think a bit of read-eval is needed here 2018-04-22T15:04:06Z phoe: pjb: yes, thanks. 2018-04-22T15:04:34Z phoe: ha, I think I found a SBCL bug 2018-04-22T15:04:42Z phoe: (catch #1=(find-package :cl) (throw #1# "look ma, i'm throwing errors")) works 2018-04-22T15:05:00Z phoe: (catch #1=(make-condition 'error) (throw #1# "look ma, i'm throwing errors")) 2018-04-22T15:05:06Z phoe: doesn't. 2018-04-22T15:05:09Z phoe: wait, no 2018-04-22T15:05:12Z phoe: I am being silly 2018-04-22T15:05:16Z pjb: There's kind of a guarantee that (find-package :cl) will always return the same object. 2018-04-22T15:05:20Z phoe: these evaluate to two different objects. 2018-04-22T15:05:24Z pjb: (catch (find-package :cl) (throw (find-package :cl) "look ma, i'm throwing errors")) 2018-04-22T15:05:47Z phoe: (catch #1=#.(make-condition 'error) (throw #1# "look ma, i'm throwing errors")) 2018-04-22T15:05:54Z phoe: read-eval, yes. thanks. 2018-04-22T15:05:56Z MichaelRaskin: Exactly 2018-04-22T15:06:32Z phoe: I often get the combination of ## and #. mixed up 2018-04-22T15:06:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:09:46Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-22T15:09:59Z oleo: do you get the read-time-value of (make-condition 'error) on load ? 2018-04-22T15:10:07Z oleo: via #. ? 2018-04-22T15:10:55Z MichaelRaskin: Yes 2018-04-22T15:11:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:12:16Z oleo: if an error condition is signalled that halts the repl normally not ? 2018-04-22T15:12:24Z oleo: but via catch you prevent that ? 2018-04-22T15:12:33Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:12:50Z beach: No. 2018-04-22T15:13:13Z oleo: ya ok not prevent, but circumvent ? 2018-04-22T15:13:18Z oleo: lol 2018-04-22T15:13:45Z oleo: since it transfers control-flow to another point.... 2018-04-22T15:13:51Z oleo: i suppose.... 2018-04-22T15:14:05Z elfmacs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:14:37Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:15:33Z oleo: beach: are there any good reference materials for designing object models ? 2018-04-22T15:15:45Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:16:30Z beach: Not really. 2018-04-22T15:16:41Z beach: Sonja Keene is OK, but not fantastic. 2018-04-22T15:18:09Z oleo: ya i figured as much, i'm trying to skim some stuff from stackoverflow etc... 2018-04-22T15:18:18Z oleo: design is huge..... 2018-04-22T15:18:38Z oleo: and i don't find much points either 2018-04-22T15:19:01Z oleo: other than one book for design-patterns with some code for some text-editor 2018-04-22T15:19:07Z oleo: i think i should get that one 2018-04-22T15:19:08Z oleo: meh 2018-04-22T15:19:20Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:19:50Z oleo: design is mostly free-style but .... patterns would be interesting really 2018-04-22T15:19:52Z khrbt_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-22T15:20:05Z Folkol joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:20:54Z oleo: and that's why it's hard to find any good reference materials too 2018-04-22T15:21:18Z beach: I am working on it. :) 2018-04-22T15:21:19Z oleo: it always changes depending on what you want to supplement.... 2018-04-22T15:21:28Z oleo: :) 2018-04-22T15:23:06Z khrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:29:32Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:31:05Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:31:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:32:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:33:29Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:36:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:37:09Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:37:59Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:38:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:38:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:40:55Z drmeister: What is the quickest way to convert a vector of double-float's to a simple vector of single floats? 2018-04-22T15:41:02Z drmeister: Just write a loop - right? 2018-04-22T15:42:29Z Shinmera: (map-into (make-array (length a) :element-type 'single-float)) (lambda (f) (float f 0f0)) a) 2018-04-22T15:42:29Z Bike: (map '(vector single-float) (lambda (df) (coerce df 'single-float)) double-float-vector) 2018-04-22T15:42:40Z Bike: jinx 2018-04-22T15:43:04Z Satou joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:43:08Z Shinmera: err, should be 0s0, not 0f0 in my snippet 2018-04-22T15:44:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:47:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:48:40Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:49:22Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:49:27Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T15:49:59Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:51:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:52:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:54:26Z _death: 0s0 is short-float 2018-04-22T15:55:01Z oleo: hmmmm, i tried plisp 2018-04-22T15:55:10Z oleo: it's floats are screwed..... 2018-04-22T15:55:11Z oleo: lol 2018-04-22T15:55:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:55:54Z oleo: (define f 3.14) -> 3.00000 2018-04-22T15:56:14Z pchrist_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:56:22Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:56:52Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:58:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T15:59:39Z trig-ger quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:39Z cryptomarauder quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:39Z plll[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:39Z thorondor[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:40Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:40Z bheesham1 quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:40Z ichigo_best_girl quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:40Z pchrist quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:40Z azrazalea quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-22T15:59:50Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-22T15:59:53Z bend3r quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:00:25Z bend3r joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:01:06Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:01:26Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T16:01:57Z gabiruh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:02:14Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:02:49Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:03:24Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:03:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:03:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:04:30Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:04:38Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:04:55Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:05:09Z FAUST|siccegge quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:05:31Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:05:36Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T16:06:12Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:06:41Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:07:17Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T16:07:32Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:08:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:09:35Z vert2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T16:11:06Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:11:28Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:11:59Z FAUST|siccegge joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:14:21Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:14:24Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:15:47Z mn3m joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:17:00Z vert2 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:17:49Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:19:57Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:22:29Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:22:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:23:09Z vert2 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:23:13Z pelle joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:24:05Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:24:29Z pelle quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T16:25:28Z pelle joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z cryptomarauder joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z plll[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z bheesham1 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z ichigo_best_girl joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:25:32Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:27:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:27:55Z pelle: hi, i'm a bit new to common lisp, but find it great. trying to put a GUI on this program I made, and for that I've been checking out McCLIM. Works great, but troubel is: It needs to recompile *everything* everytime it loads. That takes about 10 minutes and makes it inconvenient to use. Other libraries I've loaded, like Hunchentoot, seem to only need to compile once (after I've set ASDF_OUTPUT_TRANSLATIONS to 2018-04-22T16:28:01Z pelle: a folder to cache the compiled files). Anyone has any idea how to avoid getting McCLIM to flippin recompile on every load? (Using SBCL on Debian) 2018-04-22T16:28:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T16:28:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:28:57Z mhitchman[m] quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:28:59Z blisp[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:00Z jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:00Z drunk_foxx[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:03Z phoe: pelle: #clim might be able to answer sooner since they specialize on CLIM 2018-04-22T16:29:05Z hiq[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:06Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:14Z dirb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:15Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:21Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:22Z theemacsshibe[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:22Z kammd[m] quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:22Z eatonphil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:28Z LdBeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:28Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:28Z Jach[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:29Z cryptomarauder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:32Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:32Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:32Z kumori[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:36Z lyosha[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:42Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:42Z katco[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:46Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:29:51Z oleo: pelle: maybe just create an image via save-lisp-and-die ? 2018-04-22T16:30:03Z plll[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:32:07Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:32:25Z pelle: @oleo and then load that image later? 2018-04-22T16:32:34Z zotan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:32:34Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:33:09Z pelle: @phoe thanks. (wondering if anyone would really check such a niche IRC channel?) 2018-04-22T16:33:37Z zotan joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:33:53Z sellout- joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:34:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:34:42Z phoe: pelle: not so niche. (: 2018-04-22T16:34:49Z phoe: the McCLIM developers and maintainers are there. 2018-04-22T16:36:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T16:36:40Z pelle: @phoe: happy to hear that! 2018-04-22T16:37:57Z Satou quit (Quit: Cya soon guys!) 2018-04-22T16:38:48Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:38:49Z cess11_: pelle: If you have experience from C++ you might want to hang out in #clasp too. 2018-04-22T16:38:55Z runejuhl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:41:11Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:41:23Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:42:15Z pelle: @cess11_ I'm coming more from Racket/Clojure perspective :-/ But might give it a look. 2018-04-22T16:43:03Z oleo: pelle: well i do it that way, i.e. use an image 2018-04-22T16:44:11Z oleo: pelle: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "/home/oleo/newlim4" :executable t) 2018-04-22T16:44:22Z oleo: pelle: and then start it via some bash script 2018-04-22T16:44:46Z oleo: pelle: #!/bin/bash 2018-04-22T16:44:46Z oleo: export MY_SBCL="/home/oleo/newlim4 --eval (cl-user::clm)" 2018-04-22T16:44:46Z oleo: exec rlwrap -b "[]()'\" " --remember -c -f /home/oleo/.sbcl_completions -H /home/oleo/.sbcl_history -s 65535 $MY_SBCL 2018-04-22T16:45:17Z oleo: if you don't have the .sbcl_completions file you can create it 2018-04-22T16:45:44Z oleo: either by touching it or using another instance of lisp and some code to generate the symbols in it 2018-04-22T16:46:12Z oleo: .sbcl_history can be empty anyway 2018-04-22T16:46:24Z oleo: but you might want to fill the completions 2018-04-22T16:49:49Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:50:47Z pelle: @oleo: Uh, that sbcl_completions was something I was wondering about (since only CLISP appears to have built-in REPL completion) 2018-04-22T16:50:47Z Achylles joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:52:12Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-22T16:53:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:53:41Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:54:09Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:54:13Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:54:57Z oleo: no pelle 2018-04-22T16:55:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:55:20Z phoe: pelle: you might also want to pick up emacs+slime for interactive Lisp development; a terminal REPL will not give you a full experience. 2018-04-22T16:56:52Z oleo: pelle: just load this one http://dpaste.com/1JZDJV4 once you are in your image with all the packages loaded of which you want to create the symbols for completion 2018-04-22T16:58:35Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T16:59:17Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T16:59:36Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:00:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:01:52Z pelle: useful with that completions file!! thanks! I've installed slimv in vim and seems to work quite well also ... just takes a bit getting used to. 2018-04-22T17:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:03:31Z Achylles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T17:03:59Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:04:41Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:05:29Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:06:44Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:07:54Z comborico1611 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T17:10:10Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T17:10:30Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:12:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:15:57Z trocado joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:17:29Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:17:42Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:18:32Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:22:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:25:03Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:25:34Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-22T17:25:42Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:29:15Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:29:18Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:30:29Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:31:24Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T17:32:05Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:35:13Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:36:13Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-22T17:38:48Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:42:15Z MrSleepy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T17:48:40Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:48:40Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-22T17:48:40Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:51:15Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:52:33Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T17:53:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T17:57:20Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:58:45Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-22T17:59:30Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-22T18:05:21Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:06:25Z pelle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T18:08:22Z emil__ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:09:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:12:26Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:12:33Z osune joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:12:39Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-22T18:13:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:13:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:16:47Z emil__ left #lisp 2018-04-22T18:19:14Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:19:46Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T18:20:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:22:36Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:26:44Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:26:44Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:29:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:33:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:33:30Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:34:18Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:34:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:37:14Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:39:15Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:40:49Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:45:05Z kerrhau- joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:46:22Z eSVG joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:48:03Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:48:53Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-22T18:49:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:51:02Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:51:33Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:53:21Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T18:54:14Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:55:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:56:02Z kerrhau- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T18:56:06Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T18:56:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone good at music? 2018-04-22T18:56:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: ah wrong channel sorry 2018-04-22T18:56:39Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T18:56:40Z jaja joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:56:40Z jaja quit (Changing host) 2018-04-22T18:56:40Z jaja joined #lisp 2018-04-22T18:57:22Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T18:57:31Z kerrhau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T18:57:46Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T18:58:00Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:00:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:00:26Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:04:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:06:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:10:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:10:32Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:13:23Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:13:39Z ghard```` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T19:15:00Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:15:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:15:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:17:13Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:20:19Z Baggers quit (Quit: b) 2018-04-22T19:20:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:20:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:20:36Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:20:55Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T19:25:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-22T19:25:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:27:30Z SlowJimmy left #lisp 2018-04-22T19:31:51Z mn3m quit (Quit: mn3m) 2018-04-22T19:33:02Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:33:13Z runejuhl joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:34:42Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:37:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T19:40:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:42:51Z khrbt quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-22T19:46:26Z khrbt joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:46:28Z light2yellow: can I configure slime's prompt? I want "CL_USER>" to be just ">". I didn't find it in the documentation 2018-04-22T19:48:41Z phoe: light2yellow: actually, the prompt tells you which package you are in 2018-04-22T19:48:50Z phoe: but if you want to configure it... hmmmm, I never felt the need to 2018-04-22T19:48:57Z phoe: it should be possible somehow, but I don't know how. 2018-04-22T19:49:17Z light2yellow: I mean, I just want to copy-paste with the results, with minimal edit 2018-04-22T19:50:03Z phoe: copy-paste with the results? what do you mean? 2018-04-22T19:50:32Z light2yellow: like, evaluate something in slime and copy it out of slime elsewhere 2018-04-22T19:50:59Z phoe: yes, I do that pretty often when I pastebin things. does the package name get in your way when you do that? 2018-04-22T19:51:53Z light2yellow: ah, turns out I never tried. lol. it doesn't 2018-04-22T19:52:21Z light2yellow: I thought, like, "I need to figure out how to get rid on this CL-USER first" 2018-04-22T19:52:38Z light2yellow: s/on/off 2018-04-22T19:52:39Z phoe: well then 2018-04-22T19:52:45Z phoe: s/off/of 2018-04-22T19:52:47Z light2yellow: ye 2018-04-22T19:54:11Z shrdlu68 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T19:55:42Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:02Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z kammd[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z katco[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z dirb joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z Guest35662 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z eatonphil joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z theemacsshibe[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z Jach[m]1 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:11Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z blisp[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z mhitchman[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z kumori[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z jach[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z plll[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:12Z cryptomarauder joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:13Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:18Z lyosha[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:18Z drunk_foxx[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:57:20Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T19:59:46Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:01:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:01:12Z kark quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:01:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:03:25Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-22T20:05:57Z samus quit (Quit: samus) 2018-04-22T20:06:58Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:09:26Z khrbt: light2yellow C-h f slime-repl-insert-prompt RET 2018-04-22T20:11:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-22T20:11:25Z MohammadMatini joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:11:27Z MohammadMatini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T20:11:39Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:14:49Z light2yellow: khrbt: thanks 2018-04-22T20:16:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:18:58Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:19:19Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:19:21Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:20:36Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:23:53Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:25:24Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:26:02Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T20:26:22Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:27:37Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-22T20:28:52Z gonzojive joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:33:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:36:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T20:38:57Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-22T20:43:29Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T20:44:23Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T20:52:36Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T20:55:37Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T20:56:25Z Folkol quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-22T20:59:17Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:00:36Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T21:12:39Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:12:47Z gonzojive: I'd like a convenient method of quoting common lisp source code within a lisp file without having to use lots of escape characters. Anyone have a special literal reader for that sort of thing? 2018-04-22T21:17:07Z lemoinem is now known as Guest71989 2018-04-22T21:17:09Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:17:43Z Guest71989 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T21:21:50Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T21:24:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T21:25:23Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:25:55Z MichaelRaskin: What do you mean? How it differs from ' or maybe ` ? 2018-04-22T21:30:22Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-22T21:35:02Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T21:35:04Z gonzojive: MichaelRaskin: I want the code as a string, not as a lisp form. For a triple quote syntax, it'd be something like """(format nil "~A" x)""" => "(format nil \"~A\" x)" 2018-04-22T21:35:25Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:36:03Z MichaelRaskin: Are you sure you don't want just to (format nil "~s" code-form) ? 2018-04-22T21:37:37Z energizer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T21:38:04Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:41:18Z energizer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-22T21:41:38Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:49:52Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-22T21:50:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-22T21:52:08Z rme: you could use uninterned symbol syntax like #:|your stuff here| and then get the "your stuff here" via symbol-name. 2018-04-22T21:52:14Z fisxoj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-22T22:10:37Z SenasOzys__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-22T22:16:18Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-22T22:16:58Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-22T22:19:09Z blt- quit (Quit: 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(Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:16:50Z sauvin_ is now known as sauvin 2018-04-23T04:20:16Z Josh_2: Haven't slept yet :O 2018-04-23T04:20:21Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T04:20:28Z Josh_2: Coursework deadline on Tuesday 2018-04-23T04:21:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:23:18Z shrdlu68: In pages 6-7 of the clim user manual (pdf), I can't get that simple example to work. It seems (define-application-frame my-first-clim-app...) should define a class with the name my-first-clim-app, but the interpreter warns that it's an undefined variable. 2018-04-23T04:24:57Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:26:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:30:29Z gonzojive quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:31:05Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2018-04-23T04:32:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:32:32Z beach: I am guessing a package problem. You are probably not in the CLIM-USER package. 2018-04-23T04:36:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:36:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:40:24Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:40:51Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:42:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:43:14Z Hello_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:44:57Z c0rehe110 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:46:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:47:19Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:52:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:54:04Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:54:11Z SlowJimmy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T04:57:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T04:59:13Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-23T04:59:29Z c0rehe110 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T04:59:47Z c0rehe110 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-23T04:59:57Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:02:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:04:01Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:05:13Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:06:03Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-23T05:18:49Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:18:57Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:21:39Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:32:22Z shifty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T05:32:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:34:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:34:22Z doanyway quit 2018-04-23T05:35:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:35:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:38:57Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T05:39:27Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:44:31Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T05:48:48Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T05:54:56Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-23T06:00:24Z phoe: hey, morning 2018-04-23T06:00:41Z phoe: Shinmera: what is an undefined variable? MY-FIRST-CLIM-APP? 2018-04-23T06:01:09Z phoe: if so, then the symbol DEFINE-APPLICATION-FRAME has not been defined to name a macro, at which point it's likely that you did not :USE the proper packages. 2018-04-23T06:01:12Z jackdaniel: phoe: it was resolved 2018-04-23T06:01:16Z jackdaniel: he copied code from pdf 2018-04-23T06:01:23Z phoe: oh, gotcha. 2018-04-23T06:01:26Z jackdaniel: and it replaced quote with some other character 2018-04-23T06:01:28Z phoe: Shinmera: woops, sorry 2018-04-23T06:01:42Z phoe: oh wow, that's a silly thing 2018-04-23T06:01:53Z jackdaniel: I do silly things all the time 2018-04-23T06:02:46Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T06:04:29Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-23T06:09:06Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-23T06:09:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T06:10:19Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T06:10:43Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-23T06:11:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T06:11:34Z 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The site was attacked and is serving phishing pages. 2018-04-23T08:27:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:27:42Z Winterschlaf left #lisp 2018-04-23T08:28:20Z White_Flame: were they running Drupal? that was fresh in the media on how it's being newly hacked 2018-04-23T08:28:44Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:29:13Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T08:29:13Z lonjil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T08:30:29Z Shinmera: In happier news, here's this year's ELS group photo https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1ho9ud3ibfw0yxm/AAArAu8tes0tO-MdsDPII5pTa?dl=0&preview=20180417-160221-L1008873.jpg 2018-04-23T08:32:40Z jdz: White_Flame: I think it was running Trac. 2018-04-23T08:36:17Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:36:58Z SaganMan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T08:42:13Z cezary quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T08:43:14Z lonjil joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:47:48Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T08:50:23Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T08:55:37Z deng_cn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T08:56:25Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:56:28Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:56:40Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T08:56:55Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T08:57:18Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T08:57:18Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2018-04-23T08:59:38Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:02:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:04:27Z eSVG quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T09:05:43Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-23T09:07:10Z osune` is now known as osune 2018-04-23T09:07:48Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:14:45Z shrdlu68: I recognize the Clasp guy and the quicklisp guy in that photo. 2018-04-23T09:17:42Z beach: Would that be drmeister and Xach? 2018-04-23T09:17:50Z phoe: I think so, yes 2018-04-23T09:18:04Z shrdlu68: My colleagues get sponsored to cons by the company, maybe I'll do the same, but there's precisely 0 lisp code right now. 2018-04-23T09:18:31Z phoe: but now they might need to change their nicks to TheClaspGuy and TheQuicklispGuy 2018-04-23T09:18:43Z beach: Ah, yes, they are both in the very front. 2018-04-23T09:19:01Z beach: Xof is very visible too. 2018-04-23T09:19:03Z shrdlu68: Didn't want to ping them by using their nicks. 2018-04-23T09:19:16Z beach: ... and Bike with his hat. 2018-04-23T09:19:46Z travv0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-23T09:20:22Z araujo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:20:22Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2018-04-23T09:20:22Z araujo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:21:53Z phoe: beach: I can barely see you there 2018-04-23T09:22:06Z beach: Just my eyes and my head. 2018-04-23T09:22:25Z beach: Not important. 2018-04-23T09:22:50Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:23:41Z phoe: We need to move you more to the front next year. 2018-04-23T09:23:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:25:21Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:25:54Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:26:04Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:26:20Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:33:13Z Xof: fame at last! 2018-04-23T09:39:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:40:52Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:43:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:44:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:44:07Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T09:44:20Z Xach: I very occasionally got kevin and christian confused 2018-04-23T09:44:44Z beach: They don't look anything alike. 2018-04-23T09:45:16Z Xach: beach: aside from being tall, bald, slim white men who wore black clothes, that is true. 2018-04-23T09:45:51Z beach: Different Kevin then. 2018-04-23T09:46:17Z Xach: kevin layer and christian schafmeister, who are side-by-side in the group photo to my right 2018-04-23T09:46:20Z Xach: camera left 2018-04-23T09:46:29Z beach: Got it. 2018-04-23T09:47:43Z beach: Now if we had that CSI software, I could use it to read the name tags in the photos. 2018-04-23T09:47:52Z Xach: enhance 2018-04-23T09:48:49Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T09:49:00Z beach: Also, I would need a computer that makes that "diddly-diddly-did" sound when the resolution is increased. 2018-04-23T09:49:07Z schweers: lol 2018-04-23T09:49:10Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:49:34Z schweers: beach, I’m reading this at work, you can’t make me suddenly laugh out loud! 2018-04-23T09:49:45Z beach: Oops. Sory. 2018-04-23T09:49:48Z beach: Sorry even. 2018-04-23T09:50:39Z schweers: but yes, you’d definitly need that! 2018-04-23T09:51:58Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T09:52:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:53:38Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:56:16Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-23T09:59:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:03:09Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:04:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:05:40Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:06:40Z fraya joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:07:01Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-23T10:08:58Z fraya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:10:09Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-23T10:10:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:10:41Z fraya_ left #lisp 2018-04-23T10:15:31Z chens quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T10:16:16Z fraya quit (Quit: fraya) 2018-04-23T10:17:29Z habamax joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:18:09Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:18:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:18:39Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:19:32Z habamax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T10:19:46Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-23T10:20:59Z habamax joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:23:44Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:24:25Z puchacz: hi, sbcl is leaking open files somehow for me, I don't know how to debug 2018-04-23T10:24:32Z puchacz: SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM error processing :OUTPUT argument: 2018-04-23T10:24:34Z puchacz: couldn't create pipe: Too many open files 2018-04-23T10:25:23Z puchacz: I have :wait nil :output :stream, that I try to parse 2018-04-23T10:25:45Z puchacz: I may revert to previous version of the code that was not processing output and had :wait t 2018-04-23T10:25:59Z puchacz: maybe this is what is causing problems 2018-04-23T10:26:15Z phoe: puchacz: are you sure it's SBCL and not your code? 2018-04-23T10:26:28Z puchacz: phoe: I think it is my code, what I mean is the way I use sbcl :) 2018-04-23T10:26:29Z phoe: if you create streams via :OUTPUT :STREAM, do you close them afterwards? 2018-04-23T10:26:36Z puchacz: phoe: should I? 2018-04-23T10:26:42Z phoe: puchacz: d'oh 2018-04-23T10:26:47Z puchacz: :-) 2018-04-23T10:26:49Z phoe: who else closes it for you? 2018-04-23T10:26:50Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:27:08Z puchacz: I thought if it goes out of scope, it would be garbage collected 2018-04-23T10:27:11Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:27:20Z puchacz: okay, this might be the reason 2018-04-23T10:27:27Z puchacz: or it IS the reason actually 2018-04-23T10:29:18Z phoe: puchacz: the stream object perhaps, but not the underlying file descriptor 2018-04-23T10:29:43Z puchacz: I guess I need unwind-protect, but not sure how to clean up 2018-04-23T10:29:53Z phoe: use UNWIND-PROTECT if your file access is only happening in dynamic and/or lexical scope to make sure you clean up after yourself 2018-04-23T10:30:13Z phoe: (let ((stream (get-stream))) (unwind-protect (frob stream) (close stream))) 2018-04-23T10:30:27Z puchacz: phoe: tks 2018-04-23T10:30:56Z longshi joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:31:39Z tripty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:31:42Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:32:46Z puchacz: phoe: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ says run-program has one output stream, not 2. I guess stdout and stderr are somehow conflated then. 2018-04-23T10:32:48Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:32:49Z Quetzal2 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-23T10:32:49Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:32:56Z puchacz: so I need to close only one stream 2018-04-23T10:33:22Z edgar-rft 's code works in horo-scope. It says: won't run today. 2018-04-23T10:33:37Z shka: puchacz: use with-output-to-file and friends 2018-04-23T10:33:59Z shka: it expands to unwind protected close file 2018-04-23T10:34:19Z puchacz: shka: I have a callback on output as it grows 2018-04-23T10:34:34Z shka: ok, i see 2018-04-23T10:34:34Z puchacz: I can revert it all for safety 2018-04-23T10:34:58Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:35:24Z shka: still, you can use in-memory stream, and just copy content of it into file in one place 2018-04-23T10:35:29Z shka: much more controlable imho 2018-04-23T10:35:38Z shka: but, obviously you will need more memory 2018-04-23T10:35:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:36:02Z puchacz: shka: the program writes things like "processing 1 out of 12 completed" 2018-04-23T10:36:08Z puchacz: then 2 out of 12 2018-04-23T10:36:09Z puchacz: etc 2018-04-23T10:36:24Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T10:36:34Z shka: some batch processing stuff 2018-04-23T10:36:40Z puchacz: yes 2018-04-23T10:36:53Z shka: well, anyway, just keep closing sockets and files and you are golden 2018-04-23T10:38:07Z shka: and if you need just scope bound, there are macros for that 2018-04-23T10:40:20Z puchacz: unwind-protect .... (close stream) should do 2018-04-23T10:40:52Z puchacz: it won't work if run-program fails before returning process object with stream in it, I think I don't need to worry 2018-04-23T10:41:05Z shka: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjL6-rZmtDaAhUFQMAKHSrjBBkQFggvMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fclhs.lisp.se%2FBody%2Fm_w_open.htm&usg=AOvVaw003Nq0T6e2LtiA4Ni2z9pe for reference 2018-04-23T10:41:19Z phoe: clhs with-open-file 2018-04-23T10:41:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 2018-04-23T10:41:30Z phoe: same link as shka posted, just without google insanity 2018-04-23T10:41:32Z puchacz: shka, phoe - but I don't think I need file at all 2018-04-23T10:41:50Z puchacz: files are not updated in realtime, they are "flushed" now and then 2018-04-23T10:42:00Z phoe: I think the same thing - he is not opening a file, he's running a program and getting a stream 2018-04-23T10:42:16Z puchacz: phoe: that's right. the program might be running for long 2018-04-23T10:42:20Z shka: well, ok 2018-04-23T10:42:23Z hajovonta: puchacz: I had this problem recently, and I ended up with (close stream) and (setf stream nil) and this would let the GC collect them 2018-04-23T10:43:09Z phoe: sounds like a case for a with-open-process macro 2018-04-23T10:43:09Z shka: hmmm 2018-04-23T10:43:24Z puchacz: hajovonta: what's more, I want similar mechanism to work on lispworks..... IF there is something fishy about reading program output as it grows, I might just drop this functionality 2018-04-23T10:43:28Z phoe: maybe UIOP has something for this 2018-04-23T10:43:29Z shka: puchacz: what you are using for streams, btw? 2018-04-23T10:43:59Z brendyn joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:44:04Z shka: those are unix pipes? 2018-04-23T10:44:09Z puchacz: shka: whatever is returned by sbcl's run program 2018-04-23T10:44:19Z hajovonta: puchacz: I have this lib for sbcl https://github.com/hajovonta/cl-expect 2018-04-23T10:44:30Z puchacz: hajavonta: tks 2018-04-23T10:44:51Z hajovonta: it's MIT, see if you can use something of it 2018-04-23T10:45:11Z hajovonta: it served me well in my work for 2 years, automating stuff 2018-04-23T10:45:47Z hajovonta: a bit under-documented though 2018-04-23T10:45:53Z shka: looks cool! 2018-04-23T10:46:36Z shka: if only it would be portable 2018-04-23T10:46:55Z phoe: it might be portable over to UIOP perhaps 2018-04-23T10:47:09Z shka: yes, i think it is possible 2018-04-23T10:47:11Z hajovonta: shka it would be super-cool if somebody could port it 2018-04-23T10:47:21Z hajovonta: I lack the knowledge to do it 2018-04-23T10:47:27Z shka: i see 2018-04-23T10:47:31Z phoe: hajovonta: shka: the code seems trivial 2018-04-23T10:47:45Z Shinmera: simple-inferiors is an easy interface to OS programs and is based on UIOP 2018-04-23T10:47:59Z phoe: the only SB-internal functions it uses are run-process (UIOP), streams from the process (UIOP), threads (BT) 2018-04-23T10:48:14Z phoe: porting it should be easy, it's just 12 call sites 2018-04-23T10:48:15Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up simple-inferiors 2018-04-23T10:48:15Z Colleen: About simple-inferiors https://shinmera.github.io/simple-inferiors#about_simple-inferiors 2018-04-23T10:48:42Z phoe: I could do it this evening unless someone feels up to the task 2018-04-23T10:48:44Z hajovonta: but as I stated in the readme, it runs everything through "unbuffer". I tried other approaches but this was the only one that would actually work in practice 2018-04-23T10:48:53Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly uiop's capabilities with regards to attaching arbitrary streams to i/o is limited 2018-04-23T10:48:54Z puchacz: hajavonta: without setting process slot containing stream to nil, did you have memory leak? 2018-04-23T10:48:58Z Shinmera: due to limited implementation support 2018-04-23T10:49:04Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T10:49:13Z Shinmera: as in, some implementations don't allow you to do it. 2018-04-23T10:49:20Z puchacz: sorry, hajovonta (above) 2018-04-23T10:49:33Z shka: hmm, i see 2018-04-23T10:49:37Z hajovonta: puchacz: I don't remember, but I think so 2018-04-23T10:49:40Z shka: sad 2018-04-23T10:49:42Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T10:49:42Z puchacz: omg 2018-04-23T10:49:54Z puchacz: :wait t is the way to go it seems 2018-04-23T10:49:58Z puchacz: and forget output 2018-04-23T10:50:20Z phoe: as for buffering, force-output *should* perhaps work 2018-04-23T10:50:26Z phoe: but I'll check it 2018-04-23T10:53:11Z Quetzal2 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2018-04-23T10:58:56Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:00:57Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:02:21Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:03:30Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:04:45Z puchacz: btw, can I see something like "open files count"? 2018-04-23T11:04:47Z puchacz: I guess not 2018-04-23T11:07:29Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:07:48Z hajovonta: i think there's something like this for handles 2018-04-23T11:08:25Z dreamcompiler joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:08:25Z dreamcompiler quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-23T11:09:05Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:10:14Z Shinmera: you can check /proc if you're on linux 2018-04-23T11:10:20Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:10:46Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:13:05Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:13:12Z TETOFILO joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:13:47Z swflint joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:14:44Z dreamcompiler joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:15:15Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:15:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:20:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:21:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T11:32:50Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:35:32Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:35:32Z Quetzal2 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-23T11:35:32Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:36:40Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:36:55Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:39:56Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:39:56Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:40:10Z phoe: huh 2018-04-23T11:40:19Z phoe: UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM is troublesome to me 2018-04-23T11:40:22Z phoe: UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:RUN-PROGRAM: :STREAM is not allowed as synchronous I/O redirection argument 2018-04-23T11:40:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:40:56Z agspathis joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:42:04Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:42:33Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:43:21Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:43:29Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:43:29Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2018-04-23T11:43:57Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:44:08Z tripty joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:46:00Z elderK quit (Quit: zzzz) 2018-04-23T11:46:24Z schweers: phoe: how (when) do you expect to read from or write to a stream, when your program is synchronously waiting for the forked process to finish? 2018-04-23T11:46:50Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-23T11:46:51Z phoe: schweers: gaaah, you are correct 2018-04-23T11:46:55Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:46:58Z phoe: this should be using LAUNCH-PROGRAM 2018-04-23T11:47:07Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:47:09Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:47:18Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-23T11:48:35Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T11:48:41Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:49:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:52:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-23T11:52:32Z ebzzry: What happened to clozure.com? 2018-04-23T11:53:45Z Shinmera: It got hacked, presumably. 2018-04-23T11:53:50Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-23T11:56:47Z phoe: Yes, it got hacked. I'm waiting for someone from Clozure Associates to respond. 2018-04-23T11:56:55Z phoe: hajovonta: https://github.com/phoe-trash/cl-expect I have no means to test this now, could you take a look? 2018-04-23T11:58:53Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T11:58:59Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:00:10Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2018-04-23T12:01:06Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:01:59Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T12:02:09Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:02:37Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:07:16Z Xach: clozure folks are aware of and working on clozure.com fix 2018-04-23T12:07:25Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:07:56Z phoe: Good to know! 2018-04-23T12:08:02Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:10:11Z Xach: phoe: i would expect any expect-like library to use ptys, but i don't see it when glancing at the code. 2018-04-23T12:11:38Z uint joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:11:55Z Quetzal2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:12:11Z phoe: Xach: neither do I, but all I did was try to translate from SBCL-specific calls to portability libraries. 2018-04-23T12:12:30Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T12:13:12Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:14:55Z puchacz: hi again, when running slime in *inferior-lisp* buffer, ie not remotely, can I have 2 or 3 REPLs in different threads pls? 2018-04-23T12:15:24Z dreamcompiler quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:17:03Z shka: you have interesting question, i'll give you that 2018-04-23T12:17:35Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:18:32Z phoe: puchacz: yes, you can do that - you can create multiple REPLs on a single image 2018-04-23T12:19:26Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:20:00Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:20:37Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:21:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:23:46Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:24:35Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:24:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:25:17Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-23T12:26:51Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:36:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:37:44Z habamax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T12:40:30Z puchacz: phoe: how please? I know if I connect to remote image, I can have many REPLs 2018-04-23T12:40:36Z puchacz: but I don't know how to do it locally 2018-04-23T12:44:11Z phoe: puchacz: the way I do it, is: 2018-04-23T12:44:26Z phoe: 1) I spawn a SBCL from terminal, load swank, start a local server 2018-04-23T12:44:37Z phoe: 2) multiple slime-connect from emacs 2018-04-23T12:46:43Z Xach: Ah. I wouldn't bother with that. 2018-04-23T13:00:34Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:02:22Z SaganMan joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:09:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:10:27Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2018-04-23T13:11:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:12:02Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:12:21Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:13:42Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T13:15:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:17:01Z puchacz: phoe: yes, using slime "remotely". 2018-04-23T13:17:19Z puchacz: not "locally" 2018-04-23T13:17:31Z habamax joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:18:43Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:19:44Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:20:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:20:51Z phoe: puchacz: I don't know a way to do this from inside emacs with slime being run the default way. 2018-04-23T13:24:43Z puchacz: phoe: ok, tks - np 2018-04-23T13:26:15Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:27:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:30:40Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T13:31:15Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:32:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:34:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T13:34:21Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:34:49Z phoe: puchacz: on the other hand, I do multi-repl so rarely that I never thought of doing anything about it. 2018-04-23T13:35:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:36:34Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:42:17Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:45:09Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:45:58Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:47:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:47:45Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:48:21Z billstclair: clozure.com’s DNS server has been restored. May take a while to propagate, but not long. 2018-04-23T13:48:43Z phoe: billstclair: thanks! 2018-04-23T13:48:57Z billstclair: I didn’t do it, but was in on the discussion about the fix. 2018-04-23T13:49:41Z SenasOzys__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T13:50:01Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:50:38Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:52:49Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:54:20Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:54:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T13:55:55Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T13:57:29Z Xach: Hmmmm! I am experimenting with read-only source directories for quicklisp builds. One of the first obvious failures is cl-unicode, which wants to write generated files into its source directory to proceed with building. 2018-04-23T13:57:39Z Xach: https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/blob/master/cl-unicode.asd has the system file 2018-04-23T13:58:41Z phoe: Xach: is it just files and not directories? 2018-04-23T13:58:51Z Xach: I wonder what could be done to be compatible with a read-only source directory. Putting it in the fasl directory doesn't feel quite right - it's not machine- or implementation-dependent. 2018-04-23T13:58:59Z Xach: phoe: in that case it is files 2018-04-23T13:59:07Z phoe: it could use UIOP:WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE 2018-04-23T13:59:56Z phoe: file or files are okay, UIOP provides no way of creating temporary dirs 2018-04-23T13:59:59Z Xach: The general idea is that some .lisp files are created by interpreting unicode data files. the lisp files are used as part of the rest of the build. 2018-04-23T14:00:08Z Xach: It is not really a temporary file issue. 2018-04-23T14:00:48Z phoe: Oooh. I see. 2018-04-23T14:01:15Z Xach: The data files ship with the repo. I wonder if the generated lisp files could be made part of a release. 2018-04-23T14:01:41Z Xach: I wonder if there will be too many other problems to bother with read-only source directories. 2018-04-23T14:02:09Z phoe: Would probably be much cleaner to generate them freshly on each compilation, and that's what is going on now. 2018-04-23T14:03:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:03:29Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:03:38Z Xach: How is it "clean" to dirty up a directory with generated files? It is completely impure and unhygienic too. 2018-04-23T14:03:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:04:46Z ebrasca left #lisp 2018-04-23T14:04:56Z jackdaniel: Xach: McCLIM repository address has changed to https://github.com/mcclim/mcclim (the old one has a redirection thanks transfer ownership github system, so nothing should break) 2018-04-23T14:05:06Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:05:17Z Xach: jackdaniel: thanks 2018-04-23T14:05:21Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:05:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:05:26Z beach: jackdaniel: Is there no distinction between upper and lower case? 2018-04-23T14:05:46Z phoe: beach: not on github. this repo address works. 2018-04-23T14:05:52Z beach: Great! 2018-04-23T14:06:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:06:43Z phoe: Xach: I kind of wish it actually generated the Lisp files in some temporary locations, then compiled these temporary files, then included the resulting FASLs in the compilation output. 2018-04-23T14:06:49Z phoe: That is how it could be solved. 2018-04-23T14:06:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:07:12Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:07:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:08:09Z Xach: phoe: that is an interesting option 2018-04-23T14:08:15Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:08:20Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T14:08:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:08:33Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:08:40Z phoe: Xach: the only sane one that I see if the sources are meant to remain read-only 2018-04-23T14:09:03Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-23T14:10:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:11:14Z iqubic` left #lisp 2018-04-23T14:12:22Z phoe: Since ASDF has access to UIOP, it can use its WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE macro as a part of the system's build. 2018-04-23T14:13:23Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:14:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:16:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:16:48Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:20:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:21:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:21:21Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:25:53Z warweasle quit (Quit: gah!) 2018-04-23T14:27:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:31:38Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:32:15Z habamax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:33:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:33:48Z agspathis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:36:31Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:37:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:38:00Z didi joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:38:17Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:39:14Z didi: So TIL SBCL doesn't do tail-recursion optimization with (optimize (speed 0)). 2018-04-23T14:39:51Z didi: Or at least is what I inferred. 2018-04-23T14:40:17Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2018-04-23T14:40:49Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T14:41:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:41:17Z beach: There are combinations of values of OPTIMIZE qualities for which SBCL does not do tail-call merging, yes, but I don't know the exact combinations. 2018-04-23T14:41:33Z didi: beach: oic 2018-04-23T14:42:00Z beach: What are you trying to accomplish? 2018-04-23T14:42:01Z Bike: high debug turns it off too, which is in the manual 2018-04-23T14:42:12Z Bike: but i don't know exact combos 2018-04-23T14:42:32Z didi: Bike: Ah, maybe it was it. I have (debug 3), but (optimize speed) turned it on. 2018-04-23T14:42:47Z didi: beach: Nothing in particular. Just spelunking. 2018-04-23T14:42:48Z sjl: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Debugger-Policy-Control doesn't say anything about speed 0 specifically, just at debug > 2 2018-04-23T14:42:56Z fraya1 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:43:09Z fraya1 left #lisp 2018-04-23T14:43:14Z didi: sjl: Interesting. 2018-04-23T14:45:04Z sjl: I get the feeling the manual doesn't tell the full story about the various optimize combinations though 2018-04-23T14:45:27Z sjl: e.g. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Declarations-as-Assertions says that you get full type checks at (or (>= safety 2) (>= safety speed 1)) 2018-04-23T14:45:53Z sjl: so if safety and speed are both 1, you get full checking, but if you reduce speed to 0, you wouldn't get full checking any more 2018-04-23T14:46:03Z sjl: which is weird and probably not right 2018-04-23T14:46:13Z didi: Well, (optimize speed) only turns it on. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/b84890fb 2018-04-23T14:47:19Z didi: sjl: Indeed. How odd. 2018-04-23T14:48:22Z sjl: Huh, yeah, (speed 3) (debug 3) does seem to enable lco 2018-04-23T14:48:33Z sjl: which is not what the manual describes 2018-04-23T14:48:38Z sjl: probably a bug in the manual 2018-04-23T14:49:17Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-23T14:50:12Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:51:00Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:51:11Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T14:51:13Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T14:51:51Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:52:17Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:53:10Z johnvonneumann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:53:31Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:56:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-23T14:58:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T14:58:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:00:14Z hajovonta quit (Quit: hajovonta) 2018-04-23T15:02:59Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:09:13Z zbir` 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communicates with SLIME? doesn't sldb run in the context of the thread where the condition was raised? 2018-04-23T15:38:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T15:39:15Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:39:25Z fonzie left #lisp 2018-04-23T15:40:59Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T15:42:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:42:55Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:43:16Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:44:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T15:44:38Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:44:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:47:20Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:48:23Z phoe: I think the condition is passed on to the REPL thread 2018-04-23T15:48:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-23T15:49:48Z phoe: and I think the original thread blocks until SLDB returns control to the offended thread, at which point the selected restart takes effect in that thread 2018-04-23T15:51:57Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 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2018-04-23T16:12:32Z phoe: light2yellow: setq is a special operator so implementations do not have to write macroexpansions for it but can rather implement it as a primitive 2018-04-23T16:12:49Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:13:33Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:13:53Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:14:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:15:19Z light2yellow: I didn't understand 2018-04-23T16:15:35Z light2yellow: anyway, is it possible to define and set a variable in one expression? 2018-04-23T16:15:41Z phoe: (defvar *foo* 42) 2018-04-23T16:15:49Z phoe: (defparameter *bar* 420) 2018-04-23T16:15:58Z light2yellow: ah, okay 2018-04-23T16:16:02Z light2yellow: thanks 2018-04-23T16:16:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:17:05Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:17:30Z pierpal: if SETQ was not a special operator, what else could have been? 2018-04-23T16:17:37Z eschulte quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:18:04Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:18:11Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:18:37Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:20:32Z katco joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:20:52Z beach: light2yellow: The distinction between macros and special operators is a bit blurred, so don't think too hard about it. 2018-04-23T16:21:20Z phoe: actually an implementation is permitted to implement a specop as a macro 2018-04-23T16:21:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:21:26Z beach: An implementation is allowed to provide a special operator using a macro. 2018-04-23T16:21:29Z beach: And vice versa. 2018-04-23T16:22:07Z phoe: so (SETQ FOO BAR) could theoretically expand into (INTERNAL::%SOME-SORTA-PRIVATE-SETQ 'FOO BAR :ANSWER 42) or some other crazy internal stuff 2018-04-23T16:22:21Z phoe: as long as the semantics are preserved. 2018-04-23T16:22:21Z beach: That would not be possible. 2018-04-23T16:22:21Z pierpal: but a macro for SETQ could only expand to another special op 2018-04-23T16:22:31Z phoe: pierpal: yes, but that specop needs not to be a standard one. 2018-04-23T16:22:33Z beach: phoe: It would not work for lexical variables. 2018-04-23T16:22:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:22:55Z phoe: beach: yep, that was just an example from me. 2018-04-23T16:22:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:23:15Z pierpal: there's no non-specia-op way to accomplish SETQ 2018-04-23T16:23:31Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:23:55Z phoe: yep 2018-04-23T16:25:12Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:25:38Z Bike: it makes some sense to have "%setq" be a special operator that only mutates one, lexical binding, and then have setq expand into a few of those, or setfs, or sets 2018-04-23T16:25:58Z beach: Oh, good point. 2018-04-23T16:25:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T16:26:04Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-23T16:26:10Z pierpal: good point 2018-04-23T16:26:53Z 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2018-04-23T17:47:25Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-23T17:47:27Z nckx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-23T17:47:45Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-23T17:47:54Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T17:48:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T17:50:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T17:51:54Z jeosol: morning 2018-04-23T17:54:14Z Xach: phoe: for what it's worth, I am going to tinker with aufs to get read-only sources but with local read-write. 2018-04-23T17:54:44Z cezary quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T17:54:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T17:55:06Z jeosol: how do you guys package CL code for easy deployment on a remote machine (AWS). I'll like to pack resources (e.g., .sbclrc, code directories, data directories) to remote machine. 2018-04-23T17:55:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T17:56:08Z phoe: Xach: I see. 2018-04-23T17:56:22Z jeosol: by package above, I didn't mean CL packages, but more like how to gather dependencies up 2018-04-23T17:56:23Z phoe: jeosol: usually we create binaries for easy deployment 2018-04-23T17:56:33Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy 2018-04-23T17:56:46Z Xach: phoe: my bigger goal is to be able to run multiple parallel test builds from a single shared set of project sources. 2018-04-23T17:56:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T17:56:56Z Xach: I don't want one build to clobber sources in another. 2018-04-23T17:57:08Z jeosol: phoe: thanks. 2018-04-23T17:57:19Z phoe: Xach: yes, I see. 2018-04-23T17:57:30Z jackdaniel: jeosol: ql:bundle-systems for source code, clon for the binary build, proper systemd definitions for start. if you want to recreate your home directory on aws, why not tar it? 2018-04-23T17:57:38Z jeosol: So other project requirements like data directory (large files) are copied separately 2018-04-23T17:57:56Z jeosol: thanks jackdaniel 2018-04-23T17:58:37Z jeosol: i recently copied my setup to another linux box close to me, it was a pain. I need to copy the package simlinks, data directories, repo, etc. 2018-04-23T18:00:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:01:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:02:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:03:19Z fourier: I just copy lisp implementation config files and my lisp sources directory. Then download quicklisp.lisp, load it and install; then just do ql:quickload for my local packages and everything is downloaded and installed 2018-04-23T18:04:32Z fourier: did it couple of times recently, no problems at all (the only problem is that I always forget to do ql:quickload "prove-asdf" before ql'ing my packages which use prove 2018-04-23T18:05:20Z jackdaniel: fourier: did you get my reply? regarding osicat 2018-04-23T18:05:57Z jeosol: fourier: you do this manually each time or setup is automated 2018-04-23T18:06:28Z fourier: ah no jackdaniel , cant see anything in my mailbox 2018-04-23T18:06:43Z fourier: jeosol: ql downloads all necessary dependencies, its it purpose 2018-04-23T18:06:55Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:07:01Z jeosol: I didn't mean ql, i meant the other related actions 2018-04-23T18:07:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:07:29Z fourier: ah no its manually. but it is like 5 minutes total 2018-04-23T18:07:30Z jackdaniel: check in spam maybe? 2018-04-23T18:07:47Z jackdaniel: google stopped to like my servers, I think they try to force me to use gmail 2018-04-23T18:08:16Z jeosol: For my case, all my code is in one giant repo. Moving is not much of an issue. I have other dependencies, e.g., data directories (contain data for the application and could be large), some others e.g., wine to run a windows exe on linux, ... 2018-04-23T18:08:48Z jeosol: But I will look to the options suggested by jackdaniel and phoe 2018-04-23T18:09:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:10:09Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:10:10Z fourier: jackdaniel: aah I see it in the spam folder, yes thanks for the reply! 2018-04-23T18:11:10Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:11:16Z jackdaniel: so, everybody, if I didn't respond to some message, blame the big brother 2018-04-23T18:11:21Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2018-04-23T18:11:25Z fourier: jeosol: my code is from multiple github and not only repos and in something like "Sources/lisp" directory, so I just archive the whole directory together and move to the next PC. same I do with the ".emacs.d" folder 2018-04-23T18:13:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:14:54Z jeosol: fourier: Thanks. I do use external libraries, it's just that the project I am working on, I trying to keep everything else (apart from application data) in the same repo. 2018-04-23T18:15:05Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:15:27Z ecraven: phoe: thanks for the swank answer ;) 2018-04-23T18:15:38Z phoe: ecraven: no problem 2018-04-23T18:16:38Z jeosol: I need to look into this asp, to package code to remote machine -- had another power issue a while ago and had to restart my runs. 2018-04-23T18:17:11Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:17:47Z Ryan_Burnside joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:19:32Z jeosol: anyone running math/computational problems with random numbers where they save state and restart? 2018-04-23T18:19:54Z zbir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T18:19:58Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:20:15Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:20:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:21:55Z jeosol: apologies for my use of "save state" and "restart". These are not in the usual CL context. By "save state" I mean save information about the random number generator and by "restart" I mean restart the run again but now using the info from the random number generator 2018-04-23T18:22:01Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T18:22:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:22:29Z phoe: oh, no problem 2018-04-23T18:22:45Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:22:46Z phoe: if you are using the Lisp RNG, then simply save *RANDOM-STATE* somehow, perhaps to a file 2018-04-23T18:23:04Z phoe: and when you boot it back up, read the value from the file, setf it, and go on 2018-04-23T18:23:30Z _death: there's no standard way to save it, but implementations sometimes provide a way.. 2018-04-23T18:23:42Z phoe: yep, it's implementation-dependent. 2018-04-23T18:23:48Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Random-Number-Generation 2018-04-23T18:24:28Z rme: You can always print *random-state* to a file and read it back in. The format of *random-state* is implementation-dependent, but you can always print and read it. 2018-04-23T18:24:39Z rme: (Within the same implementation, I mean) 2018-04-23T18:24:39Z _death: in sbcl's case, even if it didn't provide a way, you'd still be able to reconstruct the state ("clone" it) since it's not a cryptographic rng 2018-04-23T18:25:19Z lnostdal quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-23T18:25:27Z jeosol: rme: yes, i save random-state to a file and read back in 2018-04-23T18:25:32Z jeosol: that is the approach I use so far 2018-04-23T18:25:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:25:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:25:43Z phoe: rme: not if it's an unreadable object 2018-04-23T18:25:47Z jeosol: I only run on sbcl and so far, I am able to reproduce the random number sequence 2018-04-23T18:26:03Z phoe: jeosol: do you initialize your RNG when you start SBCL up? 2018-04-23T18:26:06Z rme: I am pretty sure that the spec requires that you be able to print and read *random-state*. 2018-04-23T18:26:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:26:12Z phoe: clhs *random-state* 2018-04-23T18:26:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rnd_st.htm 2018-04-23T18:26:34Z phoe: rme: correct! 2018-04-23T18:26:38Z jeosol: rme: I am able to initialize it and read back in. Let me quickly check that part of the code again 2018-04-23T18:27:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:27:41Z warweasle quit (Quit: exit) 2018-04-23T18:27:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:28:41Z rme: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acj.htm 2018-04-23T18:29:02Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:29:15Z phoe: rme: yes, also 2018-04-23T18:29:17Z phoe: clhs random-state 2018-04-23T18:29:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_rnd_st.htm 2018-04-23T18:30:41Z _death: on my flight home I actually ported my old Go code to clone the state.. https://gist.github.com/death/ba34a87cd43fc041215f36c735e0fe13 2018-04-23T18:30:50Z jeosol: when I start, I call make-random-state, save that info somewhere. If I need to continue to run, I read back that info 2018-04-23T18:30:59Z _death: ugly but works 2018-04-23T18:31:10Z rme: For instance, in ccl, the default random-state object is #.(INITIALIZE-MRG31K3P-STATE 314159 42 1776 271828 6021023 1066) 2018-04-23T18:31:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:31:52Z jeosol: _death: do you mean my approach is ugly? 2018-04-23T18:32:16Z phoe: rme: good enough, that's readable. 2018-04-23T18:32:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:32:38Z _death: jeosol: no, my code is ;) 2018-04-23T18:32:54Z rme: jeosol: the random state object gets modified every time you call random. the point of saving and restoring it is so that you can run your computation multiple times using the same sequence of (pseudo-) random values. 2018-04-23T18:32:59Z jeosol: _death: ok 2018-04-23T18:33:22Z jeosol: rme: yes, that is my objective 2018-04-23T18:33:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:34:43Z jeosol: they way my application works is this (simplified). I get a random number, do some calculations. Let's call this one iteration. I repeat this again for more iterations 2018-04-23T18:35:19Z jeosol: somewhere along the line (I may have power failure like today), I want to be able to pick up from where I stop, or sometimes just continue if I don't have convergence. 2018-04-23T18:35:51Z jeosol: So the reason is to continue the search trend I had before the disruption or just continue in the case of extension 2018-04-23T18:36:57Z jeosol: extending the run works fine, but with power failure, some required files for rerun where not written. I am currently working on this part ... 2018-04-23T18:37:25Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:38:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:39:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:39:59Z jeosol: thanks guys. I checked the clhs link above and my application uses the same logic 2018-04-23T18:42:03Z DemolitionMan quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-23T18:42:30Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:42:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T18:42:55Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:43:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:43:35Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-23T18:44:04Z rme: Beware that *random-state* might be thread-local (it is on ccl). I have no idea if that applies to your situation. 2018-04-23T18:44:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:45:42Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-23T18:45:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:46:23Z Ryan_Burnside quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T18:46:45Z phoe: welp, multiple threads might be modifying the random state at the same time, too. that might be dangerous. 2018-04-23T18:46:46Z jeosol: rme: that is an important info 2018-04-23T18:47:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:47:46Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:48:10Z jeosol: I run multiple threads for evaluation but I the generation of solutions is non-threaded 2018-04-23T18:49:49Z jeosol: I have to check to make sure things kosher 2018-04-23T18:50:16Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:50:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:51:12Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:51:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:51:51Z jeosol: I am sure this has been said enough. This place is like a hive of connected brains. Problems getting resolved quickly and also, you are getting multiple ideas and gotchas. What's there not to love 2018-04-23T18:52:22Z jeosol: I am singing to the choir, but with suggestions here over last few weeks, my code is more stable 2018-04-23T18:54:26Z fourier: jeosol: why dont you just precompute a series of number and run on it until you get some stable results? 2018-04-23T18:56:23Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T18:56:27Z jeosol: fourier: I actually, simplified my explanation above. 2018-04-23T18:56:51Z fourier: I see 2018-04-23T18:56:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-23T18:57:04Z jeosol: I am running an optimization problem with > 1000 variables per solution and like 30 solutions per iteration. 2018-04-23T18:57:24Z jeosol: That is around 30,000 random numbers I will need for one iteration 2018-04-23T18:57:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T18:57:56Z jeosol: Sometimes, I can run for 50 iterations. 2018-04-23T18:58:38Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-23T19:00:09Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:00:15Z minion joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:00:55Z jeosol: So I just live with that approach for now. As per stability, for small problems (not expensive computationally), I perform multiple runs and average the results. 2018-04-23T19:01:03Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:01:21Z jeosol: with SBCL, the code is pretty fast the bottleneck is elsewhere. My current pain is instrumenting code for re-runs 2018-04-23T19:02:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:03:20Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:03:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:06:03Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:06:07Z froggey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:07:43Z froggey joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:08:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:08:39Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:08:57Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:09:47Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:09:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:11:20Z ecraven: is there a way to print a custom "banner" in SLIME from the swank? it just says '; SLIME 2.20', but nothing about the actually connected lisp (only in the buffer name, but I'd love to see the actual lisp somewhere up there on connecting) 2018-04-23T19:11:29Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:11:59Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:13:05Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:14:09Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:14:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:15:05Z skali quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-23T19:15:40Z phoe: ecraven: the actual lisp implementation is in the buffer name 2018-04-23T19:15:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:16:55Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:16:58Z sea: Is there a way to tell lisp that a particular function always returns the same value, and can be compiled away? 2018-04-23T19:17:15Z ecraven: phoe: yea, but I'd love to see it somewhere up top too. I guess I'll have to add some :write-string somewhere to just show it that way 2018-04-23T19:17:19Z phoe: what do you mean, always returns the same value? 2018-04-23T19:17:24Z phoe: something like (defun foo () 42)? 2018-04-23T19:18:03Z sea: (defun bar (x) (+ x (foo))). How can I make it evaluate that foo once, and store 42 in bar instead? 2018-04-23T19:18:13Z phoe: sea: you can't. 2018-04-23T19:18:17Z phoe: FOO can be redefined at any moment. 2018-04-23T19:18:48Z phoe: unless you (declaim (inline foo)), that is. then FOO may get inlined. 2018-04-23T19:18:58Z fourier: you can try inline it (declaim (inline fun)) 2018-04-23T19:18:59Z phoe: and BAR will become (defun bar (x) (+ x 42)). 2018-04-23T19:19:04Z fourier: phoe beat me in this 2018-04-23T19:19:09Z phoe: fourier: high five 2018-04-23T19:20:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:21:05Z sea: Hrm not sure how this would work in the case where foo is a macro 2018-04-23T19:21:12Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:21:26Z cage_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T19:21:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:22:08Z sea: I have a macro that compiles code to lisp, and I have a function I'm defining with one of those macros in it. I realized that every time I run the function, it re-compiles the code in it for no reason, and I wanted to avoid that 2018-04-23T19:22:08Z phoe: sea: huh? 2018-04-23T19:22:17Z phoe: macros are always "inline" 2018-04-23T19:22:22Z fourier: macro expanded in compile time anyway 2018-04-23T19:22:35Z phoe: since they literally expand into the code that they are defined to expand into 2018-04-23T19:22:52Z phoe: sea: do you have the code and can show it to us? 2018-04-23T19:23:09Z sea: Yeah I'll simplify it for you one sec 2018-04-23T19:23:19Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:23:37Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:23:47Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:24:25Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:25:40Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:25:53Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:26:07Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:26:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:26:26Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:27:04Z Hello_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:27:14Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:27:39Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:28:02Z sea: huh, you're right, it macro-expands when the function is defined.. 2018-04-23T19:28:16Z phoe: sea: show me the code 2018-04-23T19:28:21Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:28:25Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:28:56Z ealfonso: how can I avoid an undefined variable warning when using (cffi:defcvar ("my_var" my-var) :int) and then referring to my-var? 2018-04-23T19:29:01Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:29:29Z zbir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:29:39Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T19:29:44Z Bike: i think that shouldn't happen. how do you use it? 2018-04-23T19:29:50Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:30:16Z sea: http://termbin.com/cjof 2018-04-23T19:30:18Z sea: Okay there 2018-04-23T19:30:35Z sea: okay so it looks like it really is run only once at compile-time after all 2018-04-23T19:30:59Z sea: The defun takes long, though, which is fine 2018-04-23T19:31:48Z Bike: you know modular exponentiation can be done more efficiently, right? 2018-04-23T19:32:57Z ealfonso: Bike https://pastebin.com/H8SEkxL4 I'm simply referring to the defcvar variable with setf 2018-04-23T19:33:27Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:33:49Z Bike: ealfonso: i believe defcvar is intended to be used at top level. the compiler won't be aware of the definition while compiling init-lib. 2018-04-23T19:34:54Z ealfonso: I see. thanks 2018-04-23T19:35:24Z Bike: since defcvar just establishes a symbol macro it's largely pointless to do it at runtime, anyway 2018-04-23T19:35:42Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:36:23Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:36:42Z didi joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:37:00Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T19:37:29Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-23T19:38:52Z phoe: sea: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/774#774 2018-04-23T19:39:09Z phoe: this should work without any redefinitions 2018-04-23T19:39:16Z phoe: but what Bike said, your code is pretty inefficient 2018-04-23T19:39:28Z pierpa: sea: maybe you can do the computation at read time? (defun foo (x) #.(compute-something x)) 2018-04-23T19:39:36Z Bike: it's among the least efficient ways to compute (0 1 1) i can think of 2018-04-23T19:40:09Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:40:16Z sea: That's just the example code. I wanted something slow to take up time, so I could figure out if the macro was being run at compile-time or run-time 2018-04-23T19:40:19Z Bike: mostly because i have no head for busy beavers 2018-04-23T19:40:38Z Bike: okay, well, if you compile your code the macro will be expanded at compile time. 2018-04-23T19:41:01Z Bike: if you just evaluate it it could go either way, but in most implementations now it'll still be expanded just the once. 2018-04-23T19:43:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:46:04Z longshi joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:46:17Z sea: Hrm, it's still slightly slower than it should be. I took the macro bit out altogether and put it as a global variable it can reference 2018-04-23T19:47:43Z Bike: i think sbcl will compile foo into justsomething that returns a constant 2018-04-23T19:47:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:48:48Z Bike: based on the disassembly, it does indeed 2018-04-23T19:51:26Z sea: Maybe it's down to how I write my macros? Is there a better way to do this: (defmacro foo (x) (list 'quote (f x))) ? 2018-04-23T19:51:59Z phoe: sea: yes. Read about backquote notation. 2018-04-23T19:52:08Z Bike: but that won't affect speed 2018-04-23T19:52:14Z phoe: (defmacro foo (x) `(,(f x))) 2018-04-23T19:52:20Z Bike: you're not really going to get faster than immediately returning a constant 2018-04-23T19:52:32Z sea: That was just the example 2018-04-23T19:52:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:53:31Z Bike: how the macro is written isn't going to affect runtime speed anyway 2018-04-23T19:53:35Z Bike: what it expands into might 2018-04-23T19:53:52Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T19:54:00Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-23T19:55:17Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-23T19:55:53Z ealfonso: any idea why something simple like this causes my sbcl instance to run out of memory and crash when it works fine in C: (cffi:with-foreign-object (g :pointer) (cffi:foreign-funcall "my_alloc_new_very_small_struct" :pointer)) 2018-04-23T19:59:07Z Bike: er, is the pointer not being used 2018-04-23T20:00:06Z Hello joined #lisp 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make-hash-table? 2018-04-23T20:59:41Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:00:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:01:02Z Xach: rme: Trying to adapt some sbcl code which uses `:synchronized t` to mean "concurrent writers are safe", so that's my real question - how to get safe concurrent writers for ccl hash tables. 2018-04-23T21:01:18Z rme: ccl hash tables for safe for concurrent writers by default 2018-04-23T21:01:26Z rme: are safe, I mean 2018-04-23T21:01:26Z Xach: ok, thanks. 2018-04-23T21:02:24Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:04:05Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:04:16Z rme: They use a lock-free algorithm which is good for typical access, but slower for rehashing or growing the table. 2018-04-23T21:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:04:35Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:05:32Z phoe: oh goodness, http://www.scieneer.com/ is dead 2018-04-23T21:07:45Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:09:27Z Xach: Yeah, I'm on the verge of ignoring it for Quicklisp purposes. 2018-04-23T21:13:29Z cezary joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:14:26Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:19:20Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:19:55Z u0_a183 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:20:45Z mejja joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:30:01Z prozprcek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T21:33:42Z jasom: wasn't scieneer open sourced? 2018-04-23T21:35:57Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-23T21:36:37Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:37:17Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-23T21:37:55Z phoe: jasom: AFAIR it was corman 2018-04-23T21:38:21Z jasom: phoe: that's the one I was thinking of 2018-04-23T21:39:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:40:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T21:41:24Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:41:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T21:41:45Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 2018-04-23T21:57:34Z pierpa: oops 2018-04-23T21:58:03Z phoe: clhs automobile 2018-04-23T21:58:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for automobile. 2018-04-23T21:58:37Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T21:59:14Z pierpa: yeah, I have to define it myself every time! 2018-04-23T22:00:03Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-23T22:01:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-23T22:05:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T22:06:54Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-23T22:07:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-23T22:09:37Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T22:11:20Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T22:11:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T22:12:17Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T22:12:29Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T22:12:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-23T22:14:39Z light2yellow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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tunnel easily that would save me some time 2018-04-23T23:34:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-23T23:36:22Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-23T23:36:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:39:47Z Josh_2: can't you remote connect with emacs? 2018-04-23T23:40:01Z scymtym: jasom: the slime-tramp contrib seems to be intended for that use case 2018-04-23T23:41:00Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T23:44:35Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:45:23Z Kaisyu7 joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:48:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:49:04Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:49:09Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:51:04Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:53:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-23T23:54:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-23T23:54:43Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-23T23:58:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-23T23:59:07Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 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seconds) 2018-04-24T00:16:39Z cgay: Somehow never saw this before. Fun read. https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf 2018-04-24T00:17:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:18:47Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:24:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:28:49Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:29:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:29:45Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:30:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:32:09Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:33:32Z slyrus_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T00:34:02Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:34:27Z cmatei joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:35:05Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:35:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:37:38Z zmt00 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T00:38:13Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:42:42Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-24T00:42:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:46:07Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-24T00:47:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 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2018-04-24T04:42:03Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T04:47:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-24T04:48:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T04:49:37Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T04:49:49Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T04:53:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-24T04:54:51Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-24T04:57:11Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T04:59:07Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T04:59:45Z skali joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:02:49Z mmacleod quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-24T05:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:04:01Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:04:39Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:05:10Z captgector quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:05:24Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:05:55Z captgector joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:06:29Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:08:10Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 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I had introduced a problem in the previous version that only showed up when building quicklisp. The new 'dev' fixes it. 2018-04-24T05:29:37Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let shiho know as soon as possible. 2018-04-24T05:30:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:30:26Z panji joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:31:14Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:32:51Z beach: drmeister: Wrong channel? 2018-04-24T05:33:05Z drmeister: Yoinks - yes it is 2018-04-24T05:33:07Z drmeister: Thanks 2018-04-24T05:38:42Z mathZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T05:38:57Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:40:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:40:33Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T05:43:28Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-24T05:45:38Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:49:39Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T05:51:58Z wildbartty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T05:54:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:56:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:59:05Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T05:59:34Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:00:11Z drmeister: People here might get a kick out of this. I'm using Common Lisp to fold DNA 2018-04-24T06:00:12Z drmeister: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqxmn71lvgw8g4c/origami-5min.mov?dl=0 2018-04-24T06:01:08Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:01:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:01:37Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-24T06:04:01Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:04:02Z mathZ: drmeister: What is "fold DNA" ? 2018-04-24T06:04:38Z drmeister: Predict the structure of DNA designed to fold into a particular structure. 2018-04-24T06:05:00Z drmeister: I'm heading off to bed - I'll be back tomorrow. 2018-04-24T06:05:06Z drmeister: Good night. 2018-04-24T06:05:09Z mathZ: thx 2018-04-24T06:05:14Z mathZ: good night 2018-04-24T06:06:27Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:06:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:08:46Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:08:54Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T06:09:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T06:11:10Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:12:57Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:13:40Z phoe: jasom: I actually do a thing to wok around tramp hacks. 2018-04-24T06:14:59Z phoe: before I connect to the slime, I mount my Lisp projects directory using sshfs on the same location, so /home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/ refers to the same directory with the same contents both on the remote machine and the local one. 2018-04-24T06:15:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:15:28Z phoe: this way I avoid problems with translating names from local to remote ones, because they are the same. 2018-04-24T06:17:21Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:20:56Z panji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-24T06:21:22Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:21:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T06:22:34Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-24T06:24:45Z vsync joined #lisp 2018-04-24T06:25:34Z 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seconds) 2018-04-24T10:51:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-24T10:52:32Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-24T10:53:07Z fraya left #lisp 2018-04-24T10:55:28Z myrkraverk: This is related to linedit; I already have a fork of it under my own (github) name; but I want to pull in changes from another fork 2018-04-24T10:55:32Z myrkraverk: Is that possible? 2018-04-24T10:56:10Z myrkraverk: Maybe not, or at least not obviously. 2018-04-24T10:56:20Z myrkraverk: And github doesn't seem to allow me to fork it again. 2018-04-24T10:58:14Z myrkraverk: Nor easily drop my previous fork. 2018-04-24T10:58:38Z myrkraverk: . o O ( I am not a fan of git nor github; but that's a different story ) 2018-04-24T10:58:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T10:59:18Z jackdaniel: if you want to pull changes from other repository, you can do that with 2018-04-24T10:59:25Z jackdaniel: git pull https://github.com/foobar/McCLIM.git master 2018-04-24T10:59:28Z jackdaniel: for instance 2018-04-24T10:59:41Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: ↑ 2018-04-24T11:00:40Z myrkraverk: Ok, so I need to first checkout my copy, *then* pull in changes from the other repository? And what happens if I want to make a pull request for the "other repository" ? 2018-04-24T11:01:01Z froggey joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:01:24Z jackdaniel: in effect it will be no different from merging the other branch 2018-04-24T11:01:41Z jackdaniel: if you have conflicts, you'll have to deal with them 2018-04-24T11:02:02Z jackdaniel: in my personal experience best way to see what happens is trying it out ;) 2018-04-24T11:02:27Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I'll try it out now. 2018-04-24T11:05:04Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:08:43Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:13:42Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:17:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:19:39Z ggherdov quit 2018-04-24T11:22:56Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:23:09Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:26:42Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:32:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:32:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:34:54Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-24T11:36:30Z myrkraverk: That seems to have worked; but now I have problems getting my local changes applied correctly. 2018-04-24T11:37:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:38:16Z myrkraverk: Long story short, I hacked the original linedit not to ask to quit when I did ctrl+d to exit. 2018-04-24T11:38:51Z yh joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:39:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T11:39:10Z myrkraverk: Now I get "Invalid initialization argument:" and I believe I'll have to apply some more hacks to a class hierarchy I don't fully understand yet. 2018-04-24T11:43:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T11:44:28Z myrkraverk: Ah, that turned out to be simple; just add the key to initialize-instance. 2018-04-24T11:46:42Z myrkraverk: And those changes are now in https://github.com/myrkraverk/linedit 2018-04-24T11:47:16Z nimiux quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-24T11:48:15Z nimiux joined #lisp 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joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:00:34Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:01:07Z doesthiswork quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-24T13:01:22Z light2yellow: why cannot I (+ (defvar *a* 1) 2) ? 2018-04-24T13:01:37Z Bike: defvar returns a symbol. 2018-04-24T13:01:37Z light2yellow: if I just (defvar *a* 1), it yields *a* 2018-04-24T13:01:42Z Bike: yes. 2018-04-24T13:01:43Z light2yellow: so what's the problem? 2018-04-24T13:01:48Z Bike: symbols aren't numbers. 2018-04-24T13:01:53Z Bike: it's like saying what's blue plus two. 2018-04-24T13:01:53Z light2yellow: if I do (+ *a* 2) it works, too 2018-04-24T13:02:00Z Bike: yes, because then *a* is evaluated. 2018-04-24T13:02:07Z light2yellow: aha 2018-04-24T13:02:09Z light2yellow: okay 2018-04-24T13:02:23Z light2yellow: so I need to wrap it in eval? 2018-04-24T13:02:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:02:28Z Bike: Do not use eval. 2018-04-24T13:02:29Z beach: Don't do that. 2018-04-24T13:02:36Z Bike: defvar is intended for top level. 2018-04-24T13:02:48Z Bike: Usually you'd do (defvar *a* 1), and then later in some function or whatnot, have (+ *a* 2). 2018-04-24T13:02:49Z light2yellow: okay, but just for understanding purposes 2018-04-24T13:03:04Z Bike: What is it that you want to understand? 2018-04-24T13:03:24Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:03:24Z Quetzal2 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-24T13:03:24Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:03:51Z light2yellow: anyway, I see now, thanks 2018-04-24T13:03:55Z ebrasca: What do yo recomend to test on my talos II? 2018-04-24T13:04:30Z araly joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:04:54Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:05:01Z light2yellow: yeah, well, I wanted to understand how can I write it all in one S-expression 2018-04-24T13:05:13Z light2yellow: because from definition this is possible 2018-04-24T13:06:04Z beach: (+ (progn (defvar *a* 1) *a*) 2) 2018-04-24T13:06:22Z shrdlu68: You're fired! 2018-04-24T13:06:43Z beach: Or (+ (symbol-value (defvar *a* 1)) 2) 2018-04-24T13:07:24Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T13:07:53Z Bike: (progn (defvar *a* 1) (+ *a* 2)), ifit'stoplevel 2018-04-24T13:09:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:09:43Z light2yellow: ah, symbol-value 2018-04-24T13:09:49Z light2yellow: I was looking for it for ages 2018-04-24T13:10:27Z jackdaniel: usually you carefully declare global variables at toplevel 2018-04-24T13:10:31Z jackdaniel: and later you use them 2018-04-24T13:10:52Z jackdaniel: wrapping defvar in other expressions is something unusual, and unusual is not something much appreciated when others read your code 2018-04-24T13:11:07Z light2yellow: as I said, this is for learning purposes 2018-04-24T13:11:12Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T13:11:26Z jackdaniel: doing unintuitive things for learning purposes may teach you bad habits 2018-04-24T13:11:31Z jackdaniel: but that's just my opinion 2018-04-24T13:11:37Z light2yellow: no, I read books etc. 2018-04-24T13:11:44Z light2yellow: which say this, of course 2018-04-24T13:12:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:13:04Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:13:08Z dieggsy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T13:13:48Z light2yellow: but yeah, anyway, thank you for pointing this out. you can't know if I am aware 2018-04-24T13:14:38Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-24T13:15:28Z jackdaniel: ah, Bike wrote the same above 2018-04-24T13:15:34Z jackdaniel: sorry for skipping backlog 2018-04-24T13:16:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:19:14Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:21:00Z alandipert: i wrote a solution to a puzzle, thanks in advance for giving it a look and sharing any thoughts you might have on how it could be improved https://gist.github.com/alandipert/5cf98cba9b9709976a423e598097dac0 2018-04-24T13:21:41Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:22:41Z _paul0 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-24T13:23:29Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T13:24:24Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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existing ones 2018-04-24T13:40:26Z dlowe: due to the nature of the lisp reader, you can make it so that (+ 1 2) refers to your own +, but cl:+ will always be available and immutable 2018-04-24T13:41:04Z dlowe: also, a "special operator" in lisp perhaps means something different than what it might mean in other languages 2018-04-24T13:41:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:41:38Z dlowe: more exactly, a form with a special operator doesn't follow the evaluation rules for either macros or functions 2018-04-24T13:41:39Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:42:30Z light2yellow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T13:42:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:43:10Z dlowe: well, that was a waste of exposition 2018-04-24T13:43:15Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:43:20Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:44:30Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:45:51Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:46:48Z araly quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-24T13:47:07Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-24T13:47:38Z lyding 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2018-04-24T14:58:05Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-24T14:58:06Z phoe: making user-implementable special operators would require that the users now have access to implementation internals and details and can essentially change their implementation at will. 2018-04-24T14:58:42Z phoe: you can think of special operators as a special kind of macros that you are unable to expand because their expansion and therefore internals are hidden from the user. 2018-04-24T14:59:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T14:59:44Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:00:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:01:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:02:44Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T15:03:19Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:03:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-24T15:03:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:05:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:06:00Z 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FYI, my program typically can run for several days 2018-04-24T15:17:56Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:18:30Z travv0 quit 2018-04-24T15:18:47Z travv0 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:19:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:19:56Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:23:18Z shrdlu68: jeosol: Writing a lot of output to stdout/stderr is not a necessary/sufficient condition for a program to freeze. 2018-04-24T15:23:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:23:45Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:24:17Z jeosol: shrdlu68: thanks for that. I checked two cases I was running on a local box. one froze, the other didn't. 2018-04-24T15:24:24Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:24:45Z jeosol: So I just checked. So I can rule that out. Those outputs help me know things are going ok. Thx 2018-04-24T15:25:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:29:09Z nostoi joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:29:35Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:30:30Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:31:08Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:32:58Z nostoi quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-24T15:36:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:36:49Z scymtym: if your terminal is buggy or configured with infinite scrollback, it could freeze 2018-04-24T15:37:03Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:37:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:38:17Z nsrahmad quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:40:02Z pmetzger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T15:40:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:40:55Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T15:40:58Z pelle joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:41:02Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:41:10Z habamax quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:41:20Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:41:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:42:39Z chenggong_ quit 2018-04-24T15:42:52Z phoe: jeosol: log to something else than stdoout 2018-04-24T15:42:52Z chenggong_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:43:05Z pelle: hi, i'm trying to install Quicklisp in SBCL, but it gives me this error: Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS. 2018-04-24T15:43:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:43:35Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:44:54Z phoe: pelle: where did you get your SBCL from? 2018-04-24T15:45:11Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:45:13Z phoe: to me, it seems that you got a SBCL that was built without --fancy, and therefore without BSD socket support. 2018-04-24T15:45:15Z pelle: From the package manager, in Alpine Linux 2018-04-24T15:45:21Z pelle: ah ok. 2018-04-24T15:45:41Z pelle: so, if I can build it with the --fancy flag, it might work? 2018-04-24T15:45:43Z phoe: pelle: do the maintainers of your package know how to build SBCL? 2018-04-24T15:45:49Z phoe: pelle: either that or get it from sbcl.org 2018-04-24T15:46:04Z pelle: I could file a bug for it. Seems pretty bad 2018-04-24T15:46:33Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:46:48Z pelle: Well.. ok, another problem. In Clisp, Quicklisp *does* install, but McClim fails with this error (but maybe that's for the #clim channel): SYSTEM::%FIND-PACKAGE: There is no package with name "ASDF-USER" 2018-04-24T15:46:49Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:46:53Z phoe: pelle: please do. Building a distro-wide SBCL without contribs sounds like a big mistake. 2018-04-24T15:47:11Z phoe: ...and CLISP does not seem to have ASDF. 2018-04-24T15:47:25Z phoe: Screw whatever the maintainers there do and download SBCL from sbcl.org. 2018-04-24T15:48:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:48:21Z jeosol: phoe and scymtym: thanks for comment 2018-04-24T15:48:25Z pelle: @phoe: i had some problems installing debian/ubuntu/... but alpine linux happened to work. weird laptop. but alpine linux uses musl instead of glibc 2018-04-24T15:48:33Z pelle: so don't think the one on sbcl.org will work. 2018-04-24T15:48:51Z jeosol: I am running on xterm. Not sure what they other one freeze, might be better logging to some where else, a file and check the file 2018-04-24T15:48:51Z pelle: but i'll try. and if not, i'll file a bug. and maybe try compiling it myself. 2018-04-24T15:48:58Z phoe: I have no idea if/how SBCL builds against musl. Ask #sbcl in case of any issues. 2018-04-24T15:49:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:49:40Z pelle: @phoe: wow, there's a lot of common lisp related channels. will check #sbcl out 2018-04-24T15:49:53Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:51:44Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:51:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:53:52Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-24T15:53:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:54:09Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T15:54:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:54:41Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-24T15:55:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:55:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:55:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:55:51Z zbir quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-24T15:56:04Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:57:27Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-24T15:59:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 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It's working fine in ECL though. I got some help on the #clim channel. 2018-04-24T17:26:09Z zbir` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:27:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:28:58Z foom2 is now known as foom 2018-04-24T17:29:26Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:29:36Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:29:37Z Quetzal2 quit (Changing host) 2018-04-24T17:29:37Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:30:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:30:28Z Methos_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-04-24T17:31:10Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-24T17:31:12Z jackdaniel: it happened that some people on #clim are involved also in #ecl development ;) 2018-04-24T17:31:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:31:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:32:59Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:35:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:35:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:35:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:35:45Z Arcaelyx_ is now known as Arcaelyx 2018-04-24T17:37:27Z zbir` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:38:16Z pelle: jackdaniel: yup, and it works now. nice video introduction you've made btw 2018-04-24T17:38:25Z pelle: thanks a lot 2018-04-24T17:39:05Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:39:37Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-04-24T17:39:37Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:39:52Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:41:12Z arrdem joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:41:54Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:42:58Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:43:15Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:43:18Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:43:47Z Winterschlaf left #lisp 2018-04-24T17:43:57Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:44:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:44:46Z zbir` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:45:46Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T17:46:03Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-24T17:47:45Z sjjssjjeejej joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:47:51Z sjjssjjeejej: But at the end of the day language doesn't matter much, unless its specified for a particular job.. do you people agree? 2018-04-24T17:48:28Z Bike: why "but" 2018-04-24T17:48:51Z dlowe: to imply some continuity, that they weren't just injecting some flamebait 2018-04-24T17:49:02Z Methos_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:49:06Z lnostdal quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-24T17:49:23Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:49:36Z Quetzal2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:49:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:53:59Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:54:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T17:58:18Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:59:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T17:59:17Z jackdaniel: day ends here and it still matters to me :-) I find pleasure in using cobol for my everyday tasks ^_^ 2018-04-24T18:00:04Z pelle quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-24T18:00:24Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-24T18:00:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:01:36Z beach: sjjssjjeejej: I suggest you read the excellent article by Hudak and Jones that is one of the few that reports on productivity comparisons between languages. 2018-04-24T18:03:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:04:17Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:05:15Z Methos_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-24T18:06:49Z sjjssjjeejej: Okay, let's take an example. You can create a simple web application using abcde, a number of languages but when you want an application to do a specific task say, learn from its previous operations and manipulate data sets by itself, would you choose a language or go with the easily available, less hectic and Understandable by others? 2018-04-24T18:11:00Z Methos_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:13:23Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:13:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:15:09Z jackdaniel: I think trolling is not on the "do" side of the netiquette, more like on "don't do" 2018-04-24T18:17:02Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:17:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:17:29Z Methos_ is now known as GGMethos 2018-04-24T18:17:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:17:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:18:04Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:18:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:21:02Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:21:29Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:21:36Z ealfonso` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:22:50Z Josh_2: Why ride a motorcycle when most people drive cars ya know 2018-04-24T18:23:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:23:41Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:23:56Z dlowe: I think for any and all technical questions, "it depends" is a perfectly good answer. 2018-04-24T18:25:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:25:57Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-24T18:26:05Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:26:05Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:26:41Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:27:01Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:27:33Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-24T18:28:34Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:28:37Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-24T18:30:55Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:31:00Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:32:01Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:33:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:33:01Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:33:57Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-24T18:34:05Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:34:41Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:35:01Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:35:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T18:36:11Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:36:35Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:37:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:38:36Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:39:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T18:41:36Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:43:44Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:44:02Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-24T18:45:02Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-24T18:47:49Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Does anyone remember it more accurately or seen it before? 2018-04-24T20:42:51Z Xach: drmeister: I've heard it said a few times in the past, I quite like it. 2018-04-24T20:43:09Z Xach: Sometimes phrased in terms of "exploratory programming" 2018-04-24T20:44:23Z hjek: yea, PG talks about Arc being designed for "exploratory programming" all the time 2018-04-24T20:44:23Z rme: I said that, but it didn't originate with me. 2018-04-24T20:44:24Z drmeister: "Exploratory programming" is what I've been saying for years. 2018-04-24T20:44:49Z hjek: http://paulgraham.com/arc0.html 2018-04-24T20:45:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-24T20:45:46Z rme: alandipert: Have you seen https://github.com/Clozure/dpf 2018-04-24T20:46:24Z drmeister: Ok, thanks. 2018-04-24T20:48:15Z alandipert: rme thanks for the pointer, exactly what i was looking for 2018-04-24T20:48:35Z drmeister: On exploratory programming - here's something I posted late last night. I'm folding DNA with Cando Common Lisp. 2018-04-24T20:48:36Z drmeister: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqxmn71lvgw8g4c/origami-5min.mov?dl=0 2018-04-24T20:49:41Z drmeister: It was a demo that I wanted to show at ELS and I almost got it together but then I discovered three copies of every structure in every viewing window. 2018-04-24T20:50:03Z drmeister: It took me another 6 hours of debugging on the plane flying back from Spain to track down the two bugs that were causing the problem. 2018-04-24T20:50:47Z skali quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2018-04-24T20:51:24Z drmeister: But my undergraduate Kevin whipped up a way to connect sliders to the structure viewing windows so that I could visualize the dynamics of the optimization process (seen at about 2:50 in the movie). 2018-04-24T20:53:43Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T20:54:09Z copec: that's very cool drmeister 2018-04-24T20:54:26Z drmeister: Thanks. 2018-04-24T20:55:10Z drmeister: Bike, Kevslinger and my other programmer Shiho are behind a lot of that. 2018-04-24T20:56:05Z hjek1 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T20:56:08Z hjek quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-24T20:56:13Z zxcvz quit (Quit: zxcvz) 2018-04-24T20:56:24Z rme: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Hindsight.html is a nice article about why Lisp is good at exploratory programming 2018-04-24T20:56:47Z dented42 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-24T20:56:51Z rme: I kind of like the phrase "accelerating hindsight". 2018-04-24T20:57:12Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T20:58:02Z jeosol: rme: thanks for that link 2018-04-24T20:58:22Z jeosol: i myself will need these resources as I convince folks about my choice of language 2018-04-24T20:59:09Z drmeister: rme: Glancing at it (I'll read it carefully later) - that looks like a really nice article - thank you. 2018-04-24T20:59:17Z drmeister: I haven't seen that before 2018-04-24T20:59:48Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:01:17Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:01:41Z jeosol: guys, need some help. When working with parallel code via threads, and there is an error with a thread that acquired a lock, how do I say kill that thread without having to rerun my case. I am running sbcl on the shell (no slime) 2018-04-24T21:02:15Z jeosol: I can see the threads with (bt:all-threads) and I try (bt:destroy-thread ....) but I didn't quite get what I wanted 2018-04-24T21:02:54Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:04:28Z jeosol: When I run (bt:all-threads), I see that the status of one of the threads has something like "acquiring (or acquired) lock ..". and the other threads seem to be in normal state. Since there is an error with the thread that acquired the lock, everything stalls 2018-04-24T21:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:04:45Z copec: You might want to ask in #sbcl 2018-04-24T21:04:48Z hjek1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-24T21:05:03Z jeosol: perhaps I need to think about this differently 2018-04-24T21:05:11Z jeosol: ok, thanks copec, I'll head there. 2018-04-24T21:05:51Z jeosol left #lisp 2018-04-24T21:06:53Z jeosol_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:07:29Z copec: I suggest that because it seems you would need to know how bt is implemented on top of sbcl to access state of other threads 2018-04-24T21:10:07Z jeosol_: I thought it just defaults to sb-threads at least on SBCL 2018-04-24T21:10:14Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2018-04-24T21:11:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:11:32Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:11:36Z devon joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:13:20Z devon: Any idea how to hush the CCL CFFI warning ; bare references to struct types are deprecated. Please use (:POINTER (:STRUCT ...)) or (:STRUCT ...) instead. 2018-04-24T21:14:20Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:15:32Z foom2 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:15:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:16:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T21:16:53Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:16:54Z Arcaelyx_ is now known as Arcaelyx 2018-04-24T21:17:08Z rme: That message is from CFFI (and not CCL), at least according to grep. 2018-04-24T21:17:23Z copec: you are running clasp on your mac drmeister? 2018-04-24T21:18:59Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:20:21Z fe[nl]ix: devon: do what the warning says or file a bug with upstream devs 2018-04-24T21:21:37Z devon: rme: Yes, maybe SBCL CFFI wouldn't warn. Ah, fixed by (with-foreign-slots (#1# #2# #3#) ...) -> (with-foreign-slots (#1# #2# (:struct #3)#) ...) 2018-04-24T21:21:52Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:21:58Z devon: er, except for the typo 2018-04-24T21:22:36Z jeosol_: pls ignore by thread-related question above. got pointers from $lisp channel 2018-04-24T21:22:41Z jeosol_: #lisp 2018-04-24T21:27:08Z drmeister: copec: Yes 2018-04-24T21:27:38Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:28:22Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:34:38Z devon: If I decipher the warning I'd follow it -- the vague warning language is the bug. 2018-04-24T21:35:39Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:37:48Z kuwzre joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:39:18Z kuwzre: is there a way to get company mode to support common lisp? I am using slime-company, but I wish that I could get the same sort of behavior when editing normal cl files 2018-04-24T21:40:59Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:41:34Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-24T21:41:38Z cage__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T21:44:08Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T21:47:38Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:49:44Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:49:45Z kerrhau quit (Changing host) 2018-04-24T21:49:45Z kerrhau joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:50:27Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:54:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T21:55:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-24T21:56:12Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T21:59:00Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:03:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:05:27Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:07:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:09:15Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:09:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:11:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:14:21Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T22:20:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:24:13Z hjek joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:24:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:25:24Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:25:43Z kerrhau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T22:25:55Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T22:25:56Z jaja is now known as kerrhau 2018-04-24T22:29:19Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:29:57Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:30:32Z hjek quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-24T22:35:15Z karswell quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-24T22:35:57Z ealfonso` joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:37:22Z dented42_ joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:37:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-24T22:39:06Z ebrasca: How to use (defun setf ... ? 2018-04-24T22:39:16Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-24T22:40:32Z scymtym: (defun (setf foo) (new-value [more parameters]) ...) 2018-04-24T22:40:33Z dented42 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:41:40Z scymtym: then (setf (foo 2 3 4) 1) where new-value will be bound to 1 and more parameters to 2 3 4 2018-04-24T22:41:53Z ebrasca don't undestand. 2018-04-24T22:42:40Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-24T22:43:44Z ebrasca: I like to make someting like (read-short-name array) and (setf (read-short-name array) "") 2018-04-24T22:44:57Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T22:46:50Z scymtym: if i understand correctly, that would be (defun (setf read-short-name) (new-value array) ...) 2018-04-24T22:49:29Z ebrasca: What goes in ... 2018-04-24T22:49:57Z ebrasca: (setf place new-value) ? 2018-04-24T22:53:39Z ealfonso` left #lisp 2018-04-24T22:53:57Z ebrasca: setf inside of other setf is strange but I think it work. 2018-04-24T23:00:54Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:02:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-24T23:02:47Z ldb joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:09:06Z ebrasca: scymtym: Thank you. 2018-04-24T23:10:23Z jasom: there are some cases in which defun (setf ...) will not work, for those you can use define-setf-expander 2018-04-24T23:10:39Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:10:51Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:10:58Z jasom: but that's a step up in complexity 2018-04-24T23:12:18Z ebrasca: jasom: Is it easy to see if defun (setf ...) is not working? 2018-04-24T23:12:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:13:37Z dented42_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:16:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:17:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:17:19Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:18:17Z jasom: ebrasca: any time you can't do what you want to do with a function 2018-04-24T23:18:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:18:41Z jasom: the usual rule of "never use a macro when a function will do" applies. If you can think of a function that will work, you don't need a setf-expander 2018-04-24T23:19:06Z ldb quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-24T23:22:34Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:23:12Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:23:45Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:24:14Z aeth joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:24:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T23:29:45Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:29:58Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:30:04Z ebrasca: jasom: My code now can get much better with (defun (setf 2018-04-24T23:30:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:35:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:38:34Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-24T23:38:48Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:38:57Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-24T23:39:18Z brendyn joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:45:09Z jeosol_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:52:17Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:52:34Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-24T23:52:48Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-24T23:57:17Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-24T23:58:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:01:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:04:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:07:33Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:09:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:10:11Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:10:40Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-25T00:12:36Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:13:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:14:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:15:06Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:19:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:19:31Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:19:42Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:21:30Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:24:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T00:25:45Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-25T00:25:51Z dvssa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T00:26:24Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Thanks. 2018-04-25T01:59:19Z insi joined #lisp 2018-04-25T01:59:22Z insi: heylo 2018-04-25T01:59:46Z kushal quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T01:59:47Z zooey quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T02:00:03Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:00:07Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:00:21Z insi: hey all 2018-04-25T02:00:24Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:00:26Z insi: what is wrong with this if statement: https://pastebin.com/ZQ9ndXw1 2018-04-25T02:00:29Z insi: I am new to lisp 2018-04-25T02:00:44Z Bike: (t) is a call to the function called t, which doesn't exist. 2018-04-25T02:00:55Z insi: ah 2018-04-25T02:00:59Z insi: how do i just return "t" 2018-04-25T02:01:03Z Bike: just write t 2018-04-25T02:01:08Z Bike: (if (eq s sempty) t nil) 2018-04-25T02:01:11Z insi: ohhhh 2018-04-25T02:01:12Z ioa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:01:14Z insi: nice 2018-04-25T02:01:16Z insi: thank you 2018-04-25T02:01:18Z insi: that makes sense 2018-04-25T02:01:20Z Bike: of course, eq already returns a boolean, so you can just do (eq s sempty) 2018-04-25T02:01:29Z ioa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T02:01:29Z kolb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T02:01:40Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:01:48Z insi: even better! :O 2018-04-25T02:02:04Z mrottenkolber is now known as Guest63554 2018-04-25T02:02:12Z Bike: also, it's traditional to name constants as +sempty+ to distinguish them from run of the mill variables. 2018-04-25T02:04:07Z insi: ohok cool, didn't know that 2018-04-25T02:04:28Z insi: so am i to understand, if an expr. is surrounded by () it is a function call ? ie (T) 2018-04-25T02:06:06Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:06:07Z Bike: i wouldn't phrase it as "surrounding", but (foo ...) is an operation, and if foo is a function it's a function call. 2018-04-25T02:06:31Z Bike: it could also be a macro form, like (defun ...) is, or a special operation, like (if ...) 2018-04-25T02:06:57Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:07:30Z k-hos: you will eventually come across things like; '(1 2 3) which isn't a function call, because of the single quote 2018-04-25T02:07:46Z Bike: '(1 2 3) is short for (quote (1 2 3)) which is a special form/operation. 2018-04-25T02:07:59Z insi: ahh i seeok 2018-04-25T02:10:15Z Bike: if you want to understand the semantics in detail i recommend writing a simple evaluator 2018-04-25T02:12:25Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:12:45Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:14:02Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:15:27Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:16:07Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:16:51Z PuercoPop: hello #lisp! 2018-04-25T02:20:33Z iqubic: Morning PuercoPop. 2018-04-25T02:21:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:21:52Z Arathnim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T02:22:29Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:24:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:25:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:27:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:29:45Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:36:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:36:46Z karswell quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-25T02:37:17Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:44:26Z vtomole quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-25T02:46:33Z insi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-25T02:52:17Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T02:53:30Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T02:55:36Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-25T02:59:46Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:01:56Z LdBeth: Hi, is there any way to run a external program with interactive interface in CL 2018-04-25T03:03:10Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:04:12Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:05:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:05:57Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:13:34Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:14:09Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:15:10Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:15:26Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:18:20Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:24:35Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-25T03:24:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:26:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T03:30:03Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-25T03:30:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:33:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:39:21Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T03:41:52Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It is possible that uiop:run-program will do what you need 2018-04-25T04:08:14Z PuercoPop: jasom: I think they mean something like htop 2018-04-25T04:08:28Z jasom: PuercoPop: run-program should handle htop just fine, right? 2018-04-25T04:11:01Z jasom: hmm (uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive) didn't work as I expected, so maybe not 2018-04-25T04:11:02Z PuercoPop: jasom: My knowledge of terminals is not very deep. But I would imagine that the REPL wouldn't play nice with a program that takes the whole screen for a while. Like htop or vim. 2018-04-25T04:11:14Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T04:11:36Z jasom: PuercoPop: the REPL is uninvolved until the form returns in most implementations, so I wouldn't think that would be a problem 2018-04-25T04:12:12Z jasom: (uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive :input :interactive) ;; works on sbcl on MyMachine(tm) 2018-04-25T04:12:46Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-25T04:12:50Z jasom: It does not work on CCL, which makes at least some sense because ccl has a separate REPL thread IIRC 2018-04-25T04:15:48Z jasom: It works on abcl 1.5 2018-04-25T04:15:49Z PuercoPop: ah so if the REPL doesn't write to stdout it won't interfere with htop. 2018-04-25T04:15:56Z jasom: PuercoPop: right 2018-04-25T04:15:58Z LdBeth: Yes, I mean something like htop, or an editor 2018-04-25T04:16:17Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:16:31Z ealfonso: is Hunchentoot recommended? 2018-04-25T04:16:35Z LdBeth: Is it possible with CFFI? 2018-04-25T04:17:09Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T04:17:09Z jasom: PuercoPop: for fancy REPLs there is a good chance that the program won't return the tty to the same state as before it was run, so those might have a problem. SBCL's REPL is so minimal it's not a problem 2018-04-25T04:17:42Z jasom: LdBeth: this works on every lisp I tried except ccl: (uiop:run-program "htop" :output :interactive :input :interactive) 2018-04-25T04:18:06Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:18:24Z LdBeth: jasom: Thank you 2018-04-25T04:18:27Z PuercoPop: I've ran into issues with two programs writing to the same terminal (webpacker and vis, the editor). 2018-04-25T04:18:45Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-25T04:18:50Z ealfonso: what is a recommended modern restful service library/framework? 2018-04-25T04:19:02Z jasom: There's a patchset for CCL that doesn't spawn a separate thread for tty interactions, but it's not maintained anymore 2018-04-25T04:20:14Z jasom: ealfonso: there are several, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I usually just write directly on top of clack because I'm a control freak. 2018-04-25T04:20:46Z PuercoPop: LdBeth: you might be interested in cl:ed, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm 2018-04-25T04:21:09Z jasom: ealfonso: I haven't used it, but https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance/ looks nice 2018-04-25T04:22:40Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:22:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T04:24:47Z ealfonso: thanks 2018-04-25T04:26:05Z LdBeth: CCL has only Cocoa editor 2018-04-25T04:26:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:27:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T04:32:47Z PuercoPop left #lisp 2018-04-25T04:32:52Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-25T04:38:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:40:03Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:41:28Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:43:16Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T04:44:20Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2018-04-25T04:46:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 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pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:37:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:40:06Z iqubic: Morning Beach. 2018-04-25T05:40:09Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:40:33Z dented42 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T05:41:54Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:42:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:47:17Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:48:47Z iqubic: What is the Cocoa editor? 2018-04-25T05:49:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T05:54:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T05:56:18Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T06:00:09Z jackdaniel: cocoa is OSX ui toolkit 2018-04-25T06:00:15Z edgar-rft: iqubic: some mac-specific GUI stuff, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_(API) 2018-04-25T06:00:21Z jackdaniel: so I suppose it is some off-the-shelf widget for editing 2018-04-25T06:01:53Z edgar-rft: CCL has a GUI editor that runs only on mac 2018-04-25T06:01:54Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T06:02:00Z jackdaniel: ah 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isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T08:19:04Z beach: Not sure how to do that, though. 2018-04-25T08:20:18Z makomo: beach: i added the "body { font-family: font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; }" rule to your css 2018-04-25T08:20:33Z makomo: it appears to work 2018-04-25T08:20:47Z makomo: woops, there's a c/p error in there 2018-04-25T08:20:54Z makomo: "body { font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; }" * 2018-04-25T08:23:37Z deng_cn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T08:26:52Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T08:28:21Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T08:28:27Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-25T08:29:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T08:29:25Z matijja quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T08:30:12Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T08:32:17Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-25T08:33:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T08:33:22Z Bronsa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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2018-04-25T09:23:45Z beach: makomo: Thanks. I'll put it in. 2018-04-25T09:24:16Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:24:34Z makomo: :-) 2018-04-25T09:24:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:25:51Z beach: I uploaded a new css file. Can you check whether it made a difference? 2018-04-25T09:26:03Z beach: I didn't see the problem you saw, so I can't check it. 2018-04-25T09:27:42Z spoonn quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2018-04-25T09:28:03Z spoonn joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:28:39Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:29:36Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:30:54Z epony quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-25T09:31:14Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:36:31Z asedeno quit 2018-04-25T09:36:48Z asedeno joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:37:49Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T09:38:11Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:39:30Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:40:24Z spoonn quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2018-04-25T09:41:08Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:41:33Z light2yellow: is atom a symbol as per hyperspec? 2018-04-25T09:42:25Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:42:33Z beach: Anything that is not a CONS is an atom. 2018-04-25T09:43:03Z beach: So a symbol is an atom, but there are atoms that are not symbols, like arrays, hash tables, streams, standard instances, etc, etc. 2018-04-25T09:43:42Z light2yellow: iiuc, while reading McCarthy's '60, they use 'symbol' in a casual way, e.g. they use 'atomic symbol' to say 'atom', so what is the additional terminology burden on the term 'symbol' since their work? 2018-04-25T09:44:16Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:45:41Z beach: It's the other way around. At the time, the only atoms were symbols and number (as I recall). So to preserve the relationship between atoms and CONS cells when new types were added, they all because atoms. 2018-04-25T09:46:22Z beach: The current concept of a symbol is pretty much the same as it used to be. 2018-04-25T09:47:03Z beach: Symbols these days have packages and some other stuff they may not have had at the time. 2018-04-25T09:47:45Z light2yellow: okay, so, the definition of atom got much broader. I read both definitions (per '60 and per hyperspec), but didn't realize that got that much broader 2018-04-25T09:48:29Z beach: clhs atom 2018-04-25T09:48:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 2018-04-25T09:49:03Z beach: If you look at the Notes part of the function definition, you will see: (atom object) == ... == (not (consp object)) 2018-04-25T09:49:14Z DemolitionMan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:50:04Z beach: Or you can look in the glossary: atom n. any object that is not a cons. ``A vector is an atom.'' 2018-04-25T09:50:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:53:17Z light2yellow: yes, it is more clear now. okay, how are symbols connected to symbolic expressions? sexp is an atom or cons of sexps, and cons contains car and cdr, which each are defined recursively, i.e. "car is a first argument to cons", so, can I say that symbol is an sexp? or what is the logical conclusion between these two? 2018-04-25T09:53:58Z beach: Sure. 2018-04-25T09:54:39Z beach: The term S-expression is used in two different ways. Either as a nested structure in memory of objects. Then any Common Lisp object is an S-expression. 2018-04-25T09:54:49Z beach: The other use of it is for surface syntax. 2018-04-25T09:55:15Z beach: In the second case, you will see things like parentheses mentioned. 2018-04-25T09:55:48Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression 2018-04-25T09:55:55Z light2yellow: yes, I read it 2018-04-25T09:56:09Z light2yellow: okay, thanks 2018-04-25T09:56:16Z beach: Anytime. 2018-04-25T09:57:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T09:58:37Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:58:42Z light2yellow: also, I'm missing one thing in the hyperspec 2018-04-25T09:58:52Z light2yellow: which is the symbol index is missing the glossary 2018-04-25T09:59:05Z Xof joined #lisp 2018-04-25T09:59:08Z light2yellow: yes, it's probably fine, but the glossary doesn't have the full list of terms 2018-04-25T09:59:15Z light2yellow: only per letter 2018-04-25T09:59:15Z beach: The glossary is a separate "chapter". 2018-04-25T09:59:23Z beach: Oh, like what? 2018-04-25T09:59:44Z light2yellow: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm 2018-04-25T09:59:47Z l1x quit 2018-04-25T10:00:07Z beach: What term is missing? 2018-04-25T10:00:09Z l1x joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:00:20Z light2yellow: while this one http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm has "click here to see all symbols on one page" 2018-04-25T10:00:27Z light2yellow: which is what I'm missing for the glossary 2018-04-25T10:00:45Z light2yellow: i.e. I also want such index for the glossary 2018-04-25T10:00:48Z beach: I don't understand. 2018-04-25T10:01:04Z beach: You want all terms on one page? 2018-04-25T10:01:17Z light2yellow: I see where it's coming from, it's because the glossary is a separate chapter 2018-04-25T10:01:23Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:01:34Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:01:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:01:38Z light2yellow: yes, either that, or a separate one-page index for glossary 2018-04-25T10:02:09Z light2yellow: I'm saying this because some of the terms are already included in the symbol index, for example, 'atom' has a cross-reference to the glossary 2018-04-25T10:02:26Z light2yellow: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm#atom 2018-04-25T10:02:53Z light2yellow: so it would be nice to see all glossary terms here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_AllSym.htm as well 2018-04-25T10:03:13Z beach: So many things would be nice to see. 2018-04-25T10:03:14Z light2yellow: as a proof that there aren't all of them there, try to find 'expression' 2018-04-25T10:03:44Z light2yellow: it is in a glossary and only accessible through the letter E 2018-04-25T10:04:10Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:04:26Z beach: How are you trying to find `expression' that fails? 2018-04-25T10:05:04Z beach: `expression' is not a standard Common Lisp symbol. 2018-04-25T10:05:09Z light2yellow: I know, but I guess there might be people here who are somehow related to the hyperspec, so they might see it and implement one day 2018-04-25T10:05:09Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:05:31Z light2yellow: I know it's not a symbol 2018-04-25T10:06:13Z beach: So why would you want it on a page entitled "Symbol Index"? 2018-04-25T10:06:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:06:14Z light2yellow: so, that's why I said that "either that", 'that' being putting all terms into one index, "or" creating a similar index for glossary terms 2018-04-25T10:06:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:06:35Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:06:53Z beach: light2yellow: My I suggest you help phoe create the CLUS then. Then you can fix this yourself. 2018-04-25T10:07:55Z light2yellow: CLUS is hardly ever googleable 2018-04-25T10:08:47Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T10:09:16Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:09:48Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:10:04Z light2yellow: (that means I have no idea what you're mentioning, and it doesn't ggl) 2018-04-25T10:10:39Z edgar-rft: learn howto Google, found it at the first try: phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/ 2018-04-25T10:11:40Z loke: edgar-rft: Someone who doesn't usually google for lisp stuff might not find anything clus-related 2018-04-25T10:12:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:12:32Z light2yellow: I never go to the second page, so maybe that. also, that link returns 522, rip 2018-04-25T10:13:15Z edgar-rft: light2yellow, it was the very first link after the ads 2018-04-25T10:13:33Z loke just tried searching in a disposable VM in Qubes (i.e. completely clear environment), and the real CLUS doesn't show up in the first 4 pages of Google at least. Didn't search further than that. 2018-04-25T10:14:17Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:14:43Z edgar-rft: then help google by asking for "Common Lisp CLUS" or something 2018-04-25T10:15:09Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:15:48Z edgar-rft: there are many lisp programmers at google and they don't want to tell you their inner secrets :-) 2018-04-25T10:15:54Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:16:10Z light2yellow: I even found "clonal lymphocytosis of uncertain significance" 2018-04-25T10:16:19Z light2yellow: but yeah, appending "lisp" found it 2018-04-25T10:16:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:16:54Z loke: Right 2018-04-25T10:18:07Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:18:52Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-25T10:19:26Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:19:51Z edgar-rft: light2yellow, another tip is using the CLiki (Common Lisp Wiki): https://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=clus 2018-04-25T10:20:49Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:21:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:22:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:22:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:26:20Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:27:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:28:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:31:47Z kilimanjaro quit 2018-04-25T10:31:52Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:32:04Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:33:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:33:26Z zkat quit 2018-04-25T10:33:44Z zkat joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:35:08Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:35:35Z banjiewen quit 2018-04-25T10:35:52Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:37:10Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:38:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:39:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:39:42Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T10:39:55Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:40:03Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:41:02Z knobo: Is sly the recommended over slime, now? 2018-04-25T10:42:27Z jackdaniel: I don't think so. there is a community around sly, but slime is still more commonly used 2018-04-25T10:42:34Z devon joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:42:43Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:43:11Z jackdaniel: as a side note, when I improve ecl backend, I usually contribute to slime, not sure if they backport these changes 2018-04-25T10:45:12Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:48:13Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:48:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:50:54Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:53:42Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:53:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:54:08Z elderK quit (Quit: ZzZzZz) 2018-04-25T10:56:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T10:56:46Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T10:58:59Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:00:14Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T11:00:51Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:01:54Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:02:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:04:29Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:06:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:09:40Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:11:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:12:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:12:28Z Colleen joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:13:04Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:15:09Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:15:26Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:18:21Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:18:36Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:20:15Z pjb2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:20:45Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:21:33Z pjb2 is now known as ogam 2018-04-25T11:22:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:22:12Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:22:28Z ogam is now known as pjb 2018-04-25T11:23:13Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:24:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:26:12Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:28:49Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:31:27Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:31:52Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:34:19Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:36:43Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:37:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:37:03Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:37:38Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:39:43Z tfb quit 2018-04-25T11:39:59Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:40:04Z tfb joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:41:59Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:43:00Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:44:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:47:15Z pjb quit (Quit: pjb) 2018-04-25T11:48:29Z kuwzre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:48:36Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-25T11:48:39Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:50:39Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:50:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:52:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:53:13Z light2yellow: what is the official name of standard library? the one which contains e.g. cons, car, cdr functions 2018-04-25T11:53:18Z light2yellow: is there any at all? 2018-04-25T11:53:47Z megalography left #lisp 2018-04-25T11:54:06Z light2yellow: or is it being put like "the implementation of the dialect should define blablabla"? 2018-04-25T11:54:20Z jackdaniel: "standard library" is part of CL standard, so there is no need to load anything 2018-04-25T11:54:26Z jackdaniel: standard symbols are all in "CL" package 2018-04-25T11:54:29Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:54:52Z jackdaniel: (and in CL-USER, which imports all symbols from CL) 2018-04-25T11:54:53Z light2yellow: yes, but how are they called in the standard? "standard symbols"? 2018-04-25T11:55:03Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:55:58Z jackdaniel does not understand 2018-04-25T11:56:10Z jackdaniel: any conforming implementation must have these two packages and symbols defined in the standard 2018-04-25T11:56:13Z jackdaniel: it may have more 2018-04-25T11:56:19Z light2yellow: I also find it hilarious that ANSI publishes a "standard", and then sells it for money. how is this a thing? same with C 2018-04-25T11:56:35Z light2yellow: is there any explanation to this? 2018-04-25T11:56:45Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T11:57:04Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T11:57:30Z jackdaniel: I don't understand many things as well, but texinfo sources are public domain and there are freely available standard resources build from them 2018-04-25T11:58:56Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T11:58:56Z light2yellow: "I will publish a standard, proclaim one to be so, but make it closed-access so that..." what? I doubt they earn any money, that's firstly, secondly, why are you called ANSI, you should be a non-commercial org 2018-04-25T11:59:10Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-25T11:59:12Z jackdaniel: http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html 2018-04-25T11:59:39Z light2yellow: yes, of course, finding it or downloading from speacial resources is not an issue 2018-04-25T11:59:46Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:00:21Z light2yellow: the issue is the motivation behind their actions 2018-04-25T12:00:42Z Patternmaster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:00:57Z light2yellow: ah, texinfo is available 2018-04-25T12:00:58Z jackdaniel: well, this is not a good place to complain, I suggest #lispcafe instead 2018-04-25T12:01:01Z light2yellow: that's better 2018-04-25T12:01:33Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:01:58Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:02:09Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:02:09Z light2yellow: yeah, got carried away 2018-04-25T12:02:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:05:16Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:05:36Z edgar-rft: light2yellow, the "Common Lisp Standard" already includes the standard library. The symbols of the standard Libary there are called "the symbols in the COMMON-LISP package". 2018-04-25T12:06:00Z light2yellow: edgar-rft: thank you, perfect anser 2018-04-25T12:06:32Z jackdaniel tries hard to find differences between his answer and the perfect one 2018-04-25T12:07:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:07:17Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2018-04-25T12:08:01Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:09:35Z theemacsshibe[m] funcalls set-difference with jackdaniel's answer and the perfect one -- keeps getting NIL 2018-04-25T12:10:46Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:11:07Z devon: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_1-9.html 1.9 Symbols in the COMMON-LISP Package 2018-04-25T12:11:07Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T12:11:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:11:50Z edgar-rft: from former conversations I knew light2yellow wants words Google can find :-) 2018-04-25T12:11:56Z light2yellow: jackdaniel: I wanted to hear what is understood under standard library in CL, in more or less official form, since there's no such term as "standard library". now I know that there are packages, and COMMON-LISP is the standard package (i.e. not technically called "library"), and that is where standard "symbols" are defined. that's what I wanted to know 2018-04-25T12:12:38Z light2yellow: exactly :) 2018-04-25T12:12:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: If you write symbols without in-package, they go in COMMON-LISP-USER 2018-04-25T12:13:04Z theemacsshibe[m]: Functions that you define live there too 2018-04-25T12:13:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: CL-USER also imports the CL symbols 2018-04-25T12:14:03Z edgar-rft: the full bureaucratic story is here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_e.htm 2018-04-25T12:16:01Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: no!! 2018-04-25T12:16:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:16:14Z theemacsshibe[m] hides 2018-04-25T12:16:42Z Xach: cl symbols are visible in cl-user by inheritance!! 2018-04-25T12:16:51Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's probably wrong actually, I don't get cl packages that much. 2018-04-25T12:17:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh, I see 2018-04-25T12:19:27Z MasouDa__ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:20:07Z edgar-rft: AFAIK sympols are imported, not inherited. So it's a matter of importance, not inheritance :-) 2018-04-25T12:20:07Z light2yellow: now, another question. is it up to implementation and/or interpreter to define what cons (as a function: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cons.htm) yields? for example, (cons 1 nil) => (1) -> a list, okay. (cons nil nil) => (NIL) -> same as (), an empty list, okay. (cons nil 1) => (NIL . 1) -> so, specifically a dotted pair. I know that cons is a dotted pair and a list is implemented 2018-04-25T12:20:09Z light2yellow: using cons, but won't it break somewhere if I was to pass it somewhere else, something that expects a list - since this is not a list, because a list ends with nil 2018-04-25T12:20:25Z dcluna_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:21:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: cons takes any two types. Other conses can just be printed nicely. 2018-04-25T12:21:30Z Xach: light2yellow: yes, it can break. 2018-04-25T12:21:51Z Xach: light2yellow: in some cases it is specified that something will error if the object is not a "proper list" 2018-04-25T12:22:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: A list is just some nice conses where each CDR is just more of the list or nil 2018-04-25T12:22:14Z MasouDa___ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:22:24Z GNUPONUT[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:22:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: List recursion like mapcar and loop .... in will fail because the final cdr isn't another cons, saying it's not a proper list. 2018-04-25T12:22:45Z theemacsshibe[m]: Oh wow 2018-04-25T12:23:12Z light2yellow: thanks 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z MasouDa quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z MasouDa_ quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z Fare quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z devon quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z m00natic quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z Bindler quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z ioa quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z johnvonneumann quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z d4ryus quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z earl-ducaine quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z himmAllRight quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z nimiux quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z yeticry quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z ft quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z dcluna quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z dvdmuckle quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z tokenrove quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z sthalik quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z fluxit quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z aijony quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z cods quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z sshirokov quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:40Z koenig quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:41Z alandipert quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:23:41Z lugh quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T12:24:39Z MasouDa__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:25:06Z light2yellow: regarding first part of the question, is it up to interpreter's pretty-printer to show me either a list, or a dotted pair, or does it show me exactly what objects will be yielded and passed? 2018-04-25T12:25:15Z theemacsshibe[m]: Hi GNU_PONUT 2018-04-25T12:25:46Z GNUPONUT[m]: Hi 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z devon joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z ioa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z nimiux joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z ft joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z sthalik joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z fluxit joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z aijony joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z cods joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z ramus joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z koenig joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z alandipert joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:26:11Z lugh joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:27:10Z habamax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T12:27:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: I believe implementations have to make a fancy list printout if possible, dotting the last cdr if needed. 2018-04-25T12:28:19Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:28:49Z FAUST|siccegge quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:29:20Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2018-04-25T12:29:39Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:29:57Z MasouDa___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:30:50Z Xach: light2yellow: the pretty print dispatch table generally controls it. 2018-04-25T12:30:53Z theemacsshibe[m]: Also what books can I give GNU_PONUT to learn Lisp? They know some C(++) and Python already. 2018-04-25T12:31:21Z Xach: light2yellow: that is why '(defun foo () bar) at the repl prints as (DEFUN FOO () BAR) and not (DEFUN FOO NIL BAR) 2018-04-25T12:31:37Z Xach: theemacsshibe[m]: i like practical common lisp and paradigms of ai programming, both available for free. 2018-04-25T12:33:16Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:33:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: I see. I've finished PCL and started Norvig's works, and they're great, but idk how accessible they are for people used to algol syntaxes. 2018-04-25T12:35:02Z siraben joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:35:43Z Xach: it takes time to get used to new syntax no matter what. some people take less time, some more. 2018-04-25T12:35:54Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:36:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's true. 2018-04-25T12:36:54Z light2yellow: so, then I guess interpreters will yield a list if car of the last cdr of the last list cons is nil 2018-04-25T12:37:43Z Xach: light2yellow: "yield"? 2018-04-25T12:38:06Z light2yellow: "return" 2018-04-25T12:38:21Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:38:22Z light2yellow: but I think "yield" also should make sense in CL? 2018-04-25T12:38:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: I'd call listp `(null (cdr (last list)))` 2018-04-25T12:38:46Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:38:53Z light2yellow: I like this term from python 2018-04-25T12:38:57Z Xach: light2yellow: i don't really understand what operation you mean by "yield" or "return" - if the data structure exists, it exists. 2018-04-25T12:39:10Z light2yellow: during evaluation, that is 2018-04-25T12:39:42Z Xach: what happens with a list (whether proper, dotted, or circular) depends on what you try to do with it. 2018-04-25T12:39:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: Also, reading A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation made me see NIL technically isn't (NIL . NIL) since NIL is just a symbol with odd traits 2018-04-25T12:40:08Z jackdaniel: yield is usually used in coroutine context, it is more related to execution than returning anything 2018-04-25T12:40:35Z jackdaniel: generators may yield values 2018-04-25T12:41:10Z FAUST|siccegge joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:41:18Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:41:19Z jackdaniel: in CL you return 0 or more values 2018-04-25T12:41:25Z light2yellow: okay then, I'll replace all "yield" usages with "return" in my head 2018-04-25T12:42:02Z splittist: light2yellow: the 'interpreter' is doing three things: reading, evaluating, and printing. It might be easier to think of them separately. The reader returns an object or signals an error, for example. 2018-04-25T12:42:43Z theemacsshibe[m]: Aren't yield and return different in python? 2018-04-25T12:42:44Z light2yellow: well, that's a repl 2018-04-25T12:42:56Z light2yellow: can't by CL interpreted? only compiled? 2018-04-25T12:43:01Z light2yellow: like, a .lisp file 2018-04-25T12:43:09Z light2yellow: s/by/be/ 2018-04-25T12:43:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: It can be both. 2018-04-25T12:43:27Z jackdaniel: lisp code may be interpreted, most implementations do at least minimal compilation though 2018-04-25T12:43:55Z jackdaniel: C code may be interpreted too btw, I don't remember the project name 2018-04-25T12:44:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: CLISP (is dead, and) interprets bytecode. It's not very fast and does type checks all the time, so it seems interpreted basically. 2018-04-25T12:44:20Z phoe: theemacsshibe[m]: not actually dead, it has some recent commits although it does not have a recent release 2018-04-25T12:44:20Z light2yellow: jackdaniel: yeah, actually, true. I remember reading smth on this (regarding C interp) 2018-04-25T12:44:21Z jackdaniel: isn't interpreting bytecode an execution? 2018-04-25T12:44:27Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:44:30Z jackdaniel: and you compile to bytecode 2018-04-25T12:44:36Z jackdaniel: so I wouldn't call clisp an interpreter 2018-04-25T12:44:54Z theemacsshibe[m]: Nice. CLISP is a friendly common lisp imo 2018-04-25T12:45:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: CPython compiles to bytecode too, but it's an interpreter. 2018-04-25T12:45:13Z jackdaniel: also clisp does a lot of optimizations before it produces bytecode (and it has jit infrastructure etc etc) 2018-04-25T12:45:49Z phoe: theemacsshibe[m]: a lot of the CLISP friendliness comes because it comes with readline bundled 2018-04-25T12:45:50Z jackdaniel: I would think twice before calling clisp an interpreter, but sure, lines are blurred at some cases 2018-04-25T12:45:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: Interesting. 2018-04-25T12:46:20Z light2yellow: so, it translates input to an internal representation? if so, it's more like jvm, which isn't considered an interpreter. but python vm (despite the name) is, since it just eval()s stuff. so, I suppose CL interps can do both - translate into IR (internal representation) or eval()? 2018-04-25T12:46:27Z theemacsshibe[m]: That's true. readline is the only thing I miss from SBCL (without slime) 2018-04-25T12:47:12Z theemacsshibe[m]: Yep. 2018-04-25T12:47:18Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:48:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: The only parts of the system that cares about how the code is run are the user, their patience and any nearby clocks. 2018-04-25T12:48:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: s/cares/care. I hadn't thought of the speed joke before writing that. 2018-04-25T12:48:58Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:49:20Z Anthaas_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:50:08Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:50:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:52:27Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:53:14Z MetaYan: |3b|: I found that you mentioned "https://www.cliki.net/site/account?name=83.47.187.150" some months ago. Did you contact someone about it? 2018-04-25T12:53:51Z siraben quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T12:53:59Z Anthaas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:55:08Z jerme__ quit 2018-04-25T12:55:34Z jerme__ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:55:41Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:55:43Z dlowe: isn't there a CL readline implementation on quicklisp now? 2018-04-25T12:55:50Z MetaYan: |3b|: Ah, I found "https://www.cliki.net/site/account?name=94.123.198.15" as well now, which undid some of the undo's, but not all 2018-04-25T12:56:19Z FAUST|siccegge quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:58:33Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T12:59:02Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2018-04-25T12:59:12Z White_Flame quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T12:59:38Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:01:13Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:01:44Z FAUST|siccegge joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:02:54Z shrdlu68: Given that there's this much interest in readline support in sbcl, how come it hasn't been implemented yet? 2018-04-25T13:03:04Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:03:05Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:03:48Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:04:06Z jackdaniel: linedit gives you readline support 2018-04-25T13:04:13Z jackdaniel: with symbol lookup etc 2018-04-25T13:04:19Z jdz joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:04:24Z jackdaniel: it works on sbcl and ccl (though it has its warts afaik) 2018-04-25T13:04:26Z johnvonneumann__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-25T13:06:01Z light2yellow: Xach: you said it can break (see my question about pretty-printing the object which cons returns), but I've discovered there's type-of function, and (type-of (cons 1 nil)) and (type-of (cons nil 1)) both return CONS, so I rpobably don't understand how it can break, since type of a list is CONS 2018-04-25T13:06:19Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:06:48Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:07:33Z jackdaniel: list is a cons, cons is not necessarily a list 2018-04-25T13:07:42Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:07:49Z jackdaniel: if you call a function, which is meant to work on lists, on a cons (which is not a list) 2018-04-25T13:07:53Z jackdaniel: it may break 2018-04-25T13:08:20Z light2yellow: ah, okay 2018-04-25T13:08:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:08:36Z jackdaniel: like: cat is an animal doesn't imply, that animal is a cat 2018-04-25T13:08:50Z jackdaniel: it may be a monkey 2018-04-25T13:08:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:10:26Z MetaYan: There is this nice readline for SBCL: https://github.com/jini-zh/sbcl-readline 2018-04-25T13:10:55Z weltung quit 2018-04-25T13:10:55Z shrdlu68: light2yellow: A list is simply a cons whose cdr is a cons. 2018-04-25T13:11:08Z weltung joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:11:23Z jackdaniel: so (cons 1 nil) is not a list? 2018-04-25T13:12:23Z jackdaniel: neither is NIL? :p 2018-04-25T13:12:26Z flip214: jackdaniel: not only that, but (listp '()) is T 2018-04-25T13:12:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:12:28Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:12:49Z jackdaniel: from the glossary: proper list n. A list terminated by the empty list. (The empty list is a proper list.) See improper list. 2018-04-25T13:12:52Z jackdaniel: yeah 2018-04-25T13:13:20Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:13:56Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:14:09Z Xach: a cons is an object which cares 2018-04-25T13:15:03Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:15:04Z shrdlu68: (consp (cdr (list 1 nil)) => T 2018-04-25T13:15:38Z arbv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:16:01Z jackdaniel: you know, that (list 1 nil) is nothing else, then (cons 1 (cons nil nil)) ? 2018-04-25T13:16:16Z jackdaniel: and that is not the same as (cons nil) 2018-04-25T13:16:23Z jackdaniel: (cons 1 nil) ° 2018-04-25T13:16:41Z shrdlu68: Oh wait, (consp (cdr (cons 1 nil))) => nil 2018-04-25T13:17:12Z light2yellow: shrdlu68: that actually makes sense, since if I nest conses, the only way for them to be a proper list is to have cdr of the cdr of the cdr... until the innermost cons's cdr to be nil (that's from experimenting with interp) 2018-04-25T13:17:36Z shrdlu68: Ok, so a list is a cons whose cdr is a cons or nil. 2018-04-25T13:17:53Z jackdaniel: NIL is also a list 2018-04-25T13:17:55Z jackdaniel: but it is not a cons 2018-04-25T13:18:07Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:18:12Z jackdaniel: as flip214 pointed out (and the glossary entry says) 2018-04-25T13:18:29Z Bindler quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T13:18:51Z light2yellow: yes, because this is (cons nil nil) 2018-04-25T13:19:16Z jackdaniel: no, NIL is not (cons nil nil) 2018-04-25T13:19:36Z jackdaniel: (cons nil nil) will evaluate to (NIL), while NIL will evaluate to NIL, which is an atom 2018-04-25T13:19:36Z light2yellow: ah, nil 2018-04-25T13:19:40Z jackdaniel: and atom by definition is not a cons 2018-04-25T13:19:45Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:19:55Z light2yellow: yes, makes sense 2018-04-25T13:20:30Z shrdlu68: So a list need not be defined in terms of conses. 2018-04-25T13:20:51Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:21:08Z jackdaniel: well, it could be: proper list is either NIL or a cons chain with the last element being NIL 2018-04-25T13:21:34Z shrdlu68: > list n. 1. a chain of conses in which the car of each cons is an element of the list, and the cdr of each cons is either the next link in the chain or a terminating atom. See also proper list, dotted list, or circular list. 2. the type that is the union of null and cons. 2018-04-25T13:21:35Z light2yellow: nice recursion 2018-04-25T13:21:39Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T13:21:39Z light2yellow: since NIL is a list 2018-04-25T13:21:41Z jackdaniel: or even better: it is either nil or a cons where car is list's head and cdr is list's tail (and must be another list) 2018-04-25T13:22:17Z shrdlu68: Someone update the glossary. 2018-04-25T13:22:26Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:23:07Z jackdaniel: glossary is correct 2018-04-25T13:23:41Z shrdlu68: But then how does one construct nil using cons? 2018-04-25T13:23:47Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:24:08Z jackdaniel: see 2. 2018-04-25T13:24:28Z shrdlu68: Ah, either 1 or 2. 2018-04-25T13:24:29Z jackdaniel: it may be empty chain 2018-04-25T13:26:45Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:27:58Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:28:44Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:28:55Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:29:26Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:29:34Z blerg joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:31:44Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:31:49Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-25T13:31:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:32:27Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:33:28Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:33:50Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:34:20Z blerg left #lisp 2018-04-25T13:34:36Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:34:54Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:35:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:35:38Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T13:36:10Z verisimilitude: It shouldn't be difficult to write a Readline replacement purely in Common Lisp; maybe I should do that soon. 2018-04-25T13:36:33Z verisimilitude: Anyway, hello. 2018-04-25T13:36:36Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:37:15Z fisxoj quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-25T13:37:29Z yeticry joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:37:37Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:37:43Z verisimilitude: Since #quicklisp is rather dead, I'll ask here: Would you tell me why my packages haven't been accepted into quicklisp yet, Xach? 2018-04-25T13:38:31Z jackdaniel: common question would be: did you create an issue on quicklisp-projects repository & do they work on at least two CL implementations 2018-04-25T13:38:42Z dlowe: it shouldn't be difficult. haha. 2018-04-25T13:38:57Z dlowe: maybe if you only want it to work for one terminal emulator 2018-04-25T13:40:09Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:40:22Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:42:13Z phoe: or unless you don't use github or git at all 2018-04-25T13:43:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:43:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:43:30Z shrdlu68: It shouldn't be difficult, certainly, but won't be possible purely in CL. 2018-04-25T13:43:37Z MasouDa_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-25T13:45:02Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:45:02Z jackdaniel: so, if we are presenting our opinions (because why not!) it will be difficult and even harder in pure cl ;-). but I will back down if someone will ask me for any arguments to support my opinion 2018-04-25T13:45:34Z phoe: verisimilitude: have you seen linedit? 2018-04-25T13:45:35Z phoe: https://github.com/sharplispers/linedit 2018-04-25T13:45:43Z verisimilitude: I've not. 2018-04-25T13:45:55Z verisimilitude: I don't have a github account, jackdaniel. 2018-04-25T13:45:57Z phoe: then you should. it's what you describe as a "readline replacement purely in Common Lisp" 2018-04-25T13:46:03Z shrdlu68: I assert that it would be impossible without using some sort of FFI. 2018-04-25T13:46:12Z verisimilitude: I appreciate it, phoe. 2018-04-25T13:46:33Z shrdlu68: ...as linedit does. 2018-04-25T13:46:35Z verisimilitude: As for the portability, jackdaniel, it works on anything supporting a full seven bit character set, as the only nonstandard dependency. 2018-04-25T13:47:02Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: why would it be impossible? I mean – do you have an example of an operation which wouldn't be possible? 2018-04-25T13:47:14Z verisimilitude: That's entirely nonsensical, shrdlu68. 2018-04-25T13:47:31Z jackdaniel: note that I'm not saying it will be a time well spend ;) 2018-04-25T13:47:33Z verisimilitude: You don't need C just to control a terminal device; as I'm gradually showing, Common Lisp clearly does it better. 2018-04-25T13:47:43Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Yes, disabling echoing and buffering. 2018-04-25T13:47:57Z dlowe: we... have posix bindings already 2018-04-25T13:48:05Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:48:15Z verisimilitude: That's a good point, shrdlu68; now, I wanted to entirely avoid providing that, but I've begrudgingly done so and support several implementations so far. 2018-04-25T13:48:19Z dlowe: and they aren't FFI, they're syscalls 2018-04-25T13:48:56Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:49:10Z dlowe: (which shares a lot of machinery by nature, sure, but there's no library importing) 2018-04-25T13:49:13Z verisimilitude: Currently, I have support for Allegro, CMUCL, SBCL, ECL, and am working towards it for CCL and others. 2018-04-25T13:49:16Z shrdlu68: Yes, of course, but one would have to add these syscalls to each implementation individually, or use FFI. 2018-04-25T13:49:28Z verisimilitude: However, I don't believe this should be done in Common Lisp; it should be done before it's entered, instead. 2018-04-25T13:49:44Z shrdlu68: verisimilitude: How have you done it? 2018-04-25T13:49:55Z verisimilitude: So, it mostly looks the same across implementations. 2018-04-25T13:50:14Z verisimilitude: Either the implementation has functionality specifically for this or I end up using bindings to tcgetattr and tcsetattr. 2018-04-25T13:50:28Z verisimilitude: For ECL, I wrote C code to do it with FFI:C-INLINE. 2018-04-25T13:50:50Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: this is not pure CL 2018-04-25T13:50:57Z shrdlu68: Thought so. 2018-04-25T13:50:58Z verisimilitude: I know, and I very much dislike that. 2018-04-25T13:51:12Z verisimilitude: I don't use this functionality, I'm merely providing it because some interested parties wanted it. 2018-04-25T13:51:27Z verisimilitude: After all, why have echo streams and READ-CHAR and whatnot when you can use disgusting POSIX code, instead? 2018-04-25T13:51:29Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:51:54Z verisimilitude: It's a disgrace. 2018-04-25T13:52:37Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: OK, you are right on that, you can't use escape sequences to control certain things apparently 2018-04-25T13:52:37Z beach: light2yellow: ANSI is a commercial organization just like most standard organizations in the world. They publish standards for money. 2018-04-25T13:52:53Z dlowe: if you run on a C OS, C makes the rules 2018-04-25T13:53:15Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:53:20Z verisimilitude: It's disgusting that UNIX breaks just about every programming language that has character granular input. 2018-04-25T13:53:41Z verisimilitude: The very notion of line discipline is stupid. 2018-04-25T13:53:58Z verisimilitude: But, so are most POSIX design decisions. 2018-04-25T13:54:21Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T13:54:28Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:54:59Z verisimilitude: My suggestion, since the Common Lisp program is launched by something else, is to disable system echoing and buffering beforehand, if you need it disabled; this is what every program should do, unless it truly needs control over this during program execution, which it probably doesn't. 2018-04-25T13:55:17Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:55:31Z jackdaniel: I say: go for it, prove your point (especially since it is easy) 2018-04-25T13:55:40Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-25T13:56:17Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:56:20Z verisimilitude: That's what I'm doing, yes. 2018-04-25T13:56:46Z verisimilitude: So, that linedit only claims to work well on SBCL; what poor form. 2018-04-25T13:56:53Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T13:57:00Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T13:57:02Z shrdlu68: verisimilitude: What does "character granular input" mean? 2018-04-25T13:57:16Z verisimilitude: So, some languages don't provide a character input primitive. 2018-04-25T13:57:21Z verisimilitude: As an example, APL doesn't. 2018-04-25T13:57:31Z verisimilitude: Common Lisp, however, has READ-CHAR, which is such a primitive. 2018-04-25T13:57:52Z shrdlu68: Oh, so supposedly one can only read a line in APL? 2018-04-25T13:57:53Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:58:00Z verisimilitude: So, Common Lisp has character granular input as a primitive, whereas other languages don't; this is a good example of Common Lisp providing functionality real programs need. 2018-04-25T13:58:11Z verisimilitude: Yes, APL only has a primitive for that, shrdlu68. 2018-04-25T13:58:18Z phoe: verisimilitude: SBCL and CCL it seems. 2018-04-25T13:58:28Z dlowe: verisimilitude: it's common to focus on one implementation and then branch out to other implementations as needed 2018-04-25T13:58:34Z shrdlu68: I also don't understand "The very notion of line discipline is stupid.", as opposed to what? 2018-04-25T13:58:56Z shrdlu68: What is "line discipline"? 2018-04-25T13:59:01Z habamax joined #lisp 2018-04-25T13:59:31Z verisimilitude: So, UNIX doesn't send you the actual characters typed in, by default; that would be too simple. 2018-04-25T13:59:57Z shrdlu68: Found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_discipline 2018-04-25T13:59:58Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:00:07Z verisimilitude: The line discipline says things such as ``Translate this character to that character.'' or ``Only send input after this many characters have been typed or so much time has passed.''. 2018-04-25T14:00:36Z shrdlu68: I see. 2018-04-25T14:00:53Z verisimilitude: If you think of POSIX like a retarded Microsoft, it's as if a fool's way of inconveniencing everyone else. 2018-04-25T14:00:57Z light2yellow: is a term "s-expression" used anywhere in the spec? 2018-04-25T14:01:35Z verisimilitude: It doesn't seem to be, light2yellow. 2018-04-25T14:01:42Z verisimilitude: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm 2018-04-25T14:01:54Z phoe: light2yellow: I don't think so 2018-04-25T14:02:11Z verisimilitude: Now, ``expression'' is, certainly. 2018-04-25T14:02:27Z light2yellow: yes 2018-04-25T14:02:30Z light2yellow: thank you 2018-04-25T14:02:49Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:02:54Z foom2 is now known as foom 2018-04-25T14:03:00Z beach: light2yellow: It is not. I just grepped the TeX sources. It is in a comment but not in the specification text. 2018-04-25T14:03:02Z kmcgivney joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:03:07Z Guest23825 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-25T14:03:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:04:20Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:04:42Z beach: light2yellow: Did you see what I wrote about ANSI? 2018-04-25T14:05:11Z beach: light2yellow: You seem to have a strange idea about what the word "standard" means. 2018-04-25T14:05:26Z light2yellow: beach: I saw, yes 2018-04-25T14:05:27Z python476 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T14:05:42Z light2yellow: I don't think it should a commercial act 2018-04-25T14:05:48Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:06:00Z beach: light2yellow: Because it has "American" in it? 2018-04-25T14:06:23Z verisimilitude: Well, you can get a last draft gratis, light2yellow. 2018-04-25T14:06:28Z beach: Like American Broadcasting Company? 2018-04-25T14:06:29Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:06:35Z verisimilitude: Besides, the version sold by ANSI is a scanned copy of poor quality. 2018-04-25T14:06:46Z light2yellow: if it's a programming language which is supposed to have an open specification, and be allowed to implement, the specification shouldn't be paywalled 2018-04-25T14:06:58Z beach: light2yellow: That is not how standards work. 2018-04-25T14:07:13Z light2yellow: no, I don't have any prejudices against USA, beach 2018-04-25T14:07:13Z beach: light2yellow: The C standard is also standardized by ANSI and then ISO. 2018-04-25T14:07:25Z beach: ISO is also a commercial company. 2018-04-25T14:07:36Z shrdlu68: light2yellow: The standards body supposedly needs to pay for pencils and paper clips, 2018-04-25T14:07:38Z verisimilitude: Technically, wouldn't only the implementors need a copy, necessarily; I don't know if implementors received a free copy or not, but they probably didn't. 2018-04-25T14:07:52Z beach: light2yellow: Nobody has to pay to implement the standard. 2018-04-25T14:08:09Z verisimilitude: I believe it was Lispworks that said the final draft was equivalent and so should just be used. 2018-04-25T14:08:12Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:08:16Z beach: light2yellow: You seem to only now discover how standards work in general. 2018-04-25T14:08:20Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:08:43Z tfb: verisimilitude: no, it wasn't LW, they did not even exist at the time 2018-04-25T14:08:47Z light2yellow: beach: yes, I don't know how the standards work. it would be great if you link or expain 2018-04-25T14:08:59Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:09:04Z phoe: verisimilitude: not LW but members of the X3J13 committee. 2018-04-25T14:09:19Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:09:20Z beach: light2yellow: The important aspect of a standard is that it is published by an organization independent of those who then apply it. So if Microsoft publishes the specification of C#, then that is not a very good standard at all. 2018-04-25T14:09:34Z jackdaniel: light2yellow: I believe some effort on your side (like trying to look yourself in wikipedia for that instance) would be more polite than asking for explanation 2018-04-25T14:09:38Z phoe: also, they *are* equivalent. The standard is just dpANS3 with new labels and front page attached to it. 2018-04-25T14:09:40Z shrdlu68: I think light2yellow's point is that the specification itself should be freely available. 2018-04-25T14:09:43Z verisimilitude: I meant I believe Lispworks had such a notice on its website. 2018-04-25T14:09:44Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:10:00Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:10:04Z beach: shrdlu68: But, as I said, that is not how standardization organizations operate. 2018-04-25T14:10:13Z beach: shrdlu68: They are commercial companies. 2018-04-25T14:10:15Z phoe: it is freely available enough with dpANS3 and CLHS. the ANSI standard itself is not available but for all practical purposes its readable representation does not even have to exist. 2018-04-25T14:10:35Z cess11_: beach: Or non-profit associations. 2018-04-25T14:10:39Z phoe: for reference, there is CLHS and slowly-crawling CLUS; for original text, there is dpANS3. 2018-04-25T14:10:40Z cess11_: https://www.ansi.org/about_ansi/overview/overview?menuid=1 2018-04-25T14:10:46Z light2yellow: jackdaniel: if I knew what to look for, I would have already looked. as I said, I don't understand why ANSI pdfs are paywalled, I think they should not. that's what I said 2018-04-25T14:10:52Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:11:03Z phoe: light2yellow: ANSI make money off them. Simple. 2018-04-25T14:11:05Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:11:24Z cess11_: light2yellow: They need to pay their bills. 2018-04-25T14:11:24Z beach: cess11_: Sure, that is another option. Like I said, the important aspect is that the standard be published by someone other than those providing implementations. 2018-04-25T14:11:33Z jackdaniel: yes, but can you honestly say, that you did try to look? (my pre-last remark, the last one is that this discussion belongs to #lispcafe) 2018-04-25T14:11:39Z cess11_: beach: It is the option ANSI chose. 2018-04-25T14:12:18Z tfb: verisimilitude: there was in fact a big saga about whether the final draft of the standard (which circulated freely at the time and which I'm sure all implementors had copies of) could be published in the way it now has been. I don't know if the details of that saga are now readily available. For CL the question is moot now. 2018-04-25T14:12:30Z beach: cess11_: Yes, I see that. Thanks for the correction. 2018-04-25T14:12:38Z light2yellow: jackdaniel: okay, sorry for the off-topic 2018-04-25T14:12:47Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-25T14:13:36Z verisimilitude: Well, Microsoft did push their OOXML or whatever through an independent standards body, but it was clear what really happened. 2018-04-25T14:14:00Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:14:21Z verisimilitude: So, it's not enough to just be published by an independent organization. It needs to pass a common sense ``smell test'' of sorts. 2018-04-25T14:14:42Z verisimilitude: I dislike that phrase ``smell test'', but there's not much of a better way to put it, I suppose. 2018-04-25T14:14:57Z verisimilitude: Still, I suppose that's a tad off-topic, the OOXML nonsense. 2018-04-25T14:15:12Z beach: The fact that the standard should be published by an independent organization is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it to count. 2018-04-25T14:16:02Z foom: tfb: FWIW, that's the same compromise that's in place for C and C++ standard documents for a few decades now. 2018-04-25T14:16:40Z tfb: foom: yes, for the same reasons I bet, it may even be that the CLHS was the test case in some sense 2018-04-25T14:16:49Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:16:59Z phoe: tfb: dpANS3 was placed in the public domain by members of the X3J13 committee. 2018-04-25T14:17:03Z foom: It may be, I don't know the history. 2018-04-25T14:17:36Z phoe: CLHS was actually an official thing; read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html 2018-04-25T14:17:59Z phoe: Pitman didn't release CLHS without getting enough approval stamps on it. 2018-04-25T14:18:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:20:02Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:21:57Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:22:19Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:23:50Z longshi joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:24:16Z tfb: phoe: This is off-topic but I don't think it was. That was certainly the intention but I think the copyright situation is less clear than it might be (KMP's document talks about this I think) 2018-04-25T14:24:40Z tfb: (was placed in public domain I mean) 2018-04-25T14:25:06Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:25:14Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:25:14Z phoe: tfb: you are correct. For me, for all practical purposes, dpANS3 is public domain enough. Even ANSI does not care about Common Lisp - see the sorry excuse for the standard that they sell. 2018-04-25T14:25:24Z Xach: When I talked to Kent Pitman, he said his intent was that people could create derived works of the dpans without limit. 2018-04-25T14:25:37Z tfb: phoe: yes, agree 2018-04-25T14:25:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:25:47Z Xach: this was in the context of creating a bound version of the spec 2018-04-25T14:27:56Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:29:46Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:30:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:30:54Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:31:26Z verisimilitude: Hello, Xach. 2018-04-25T14:32:45Z beach: I have started converting the dpANS files into something that can be compiled with a single call to `pdflatex'. 2018-04-25T14:33:22Z jackdaniel: beach: did you take a look at http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html ? 2018-04-25T14:33:33Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:33:53Z Xach: rme: What kinds of things lead to "Invalid memory operation" in Clozure CL? 2018-04-25T14:34:21Z jackdaniel: (and this https://gitlab.com/vancan1ty/clstandard_build/ which is linked from the abovementioned page) 2018-04-25T14:34:42Z beach: jackdaniel: First time I see it, I am pretty sure. 2018-04-25T14:34:56Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:35:26Z jackdaniel: OK, then it may be worth looking at, Currell Berry did work on TeX sources and produced a very nice-looking pdf document from them 2018-04-25T14:35:30Z beach: jackdaniel: Nice thanks. I'll examine whether that is usable to me. 2018-04-25T14:35:32Z jackdaniel: and all his work with this regard is available 2018-04-25T14:35:57Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:35:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:36:02Z rme: 1. incorrect usage of foreign pointers; 2. bugs in code compiled at (safety 0); 3. (more rarely, but it has been known to happen) bugs in ccl. 2018-04-25T14:36:04Z beach: jackdaniel: My purpose is to modify it and add an appendix that explains changes from dpANS to WSCL. 2018-04-25T14:36:12Z jackdaniel: (especially Draft B – pdf document which has an outline) 2018-04-25T14:36:14Z Xach: rme: ok, thanks. 2018-04-25T14:36:17Z jackdaniel: uhm 2018-04-25T14:36:49Z habamax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:37:00Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:38:49Z rme: also, beware that some libraries have been known to do things like (declaim (optimize (safety 0))). In ccl, those are pervasive. (declaration-information 'optimize) will show current settings. 2018-04-25T14:39:10Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:39:26Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:39:43Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what do you mean "uhm"? 2018-04-25T14:40:17Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: basically "I see" 2018-04-25T14:40:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:40:56Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I see :), "uhm" in english generaly has a connotation of thinking, like you're making a vocalized pause and haven't finished your thought, just a heads up 2018-04-25T14:41:03Z Ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:41:37Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:41:40Z verisimilitude: Since #quicklisp is rather dead, I'll ask here: Would you tell me why my packages haven't been accepted into quicklisp yet, Xach? 2018-04-25T14:41:50Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks for pointing me to it. I will definitely check whether it is usable. 2018-04-25T14:42:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:42:45Z Fare: beach, what is WSCL ? 2018-04-25T14:43:05Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:43:11Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp 2018-04-25T14:43:17Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:43:42Z jmercouris: beach: you wish to amend the standard? 2018-04-25T14:44:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:44:22Z jmercouris: or have you decided that changing the standard means changing the language, and therefore you are creating a new language with cl as its basis? 2018-04-25T14:44:33Z beach: jmercouris: I am a bit busy. The README says it all. 2018-04-25T14:44:51Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:45:00Z jmercouris: beach: ok, will read 2018-04-25T14:45:08Z jackdaniel: [rather heads down, that train departed already ;)] 2018-04-25T14:45:48Z Xach: rme: It looks like I'm in that situation - (speed 3) (safety 0) in effect. 2018-04-25T14:45:57Z zbir` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:45:59Z Xach: Oh, hmm, I read it backwards, never mind. 2018-04-25T14:46:22Z zbir` joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:46:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:46:43Z zbir` is now known as zbir 2018-04-25T14:47:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:47:07Z CEnnis91 quit 2018-04-25T14:48:01Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:48:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:48:45Z rme: you can set ccl:*load-preserves-optimization-settings* to t if you use libraries that do that sort of thing. 2018-04-25T14:48:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:49:28Z phoe: rme: is it currently possible to do an equivalent of sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy in CLC? 2018-04-25T14:49:31Z phoe: CCCL* 2018-04-25T14:49:32Z phoe: CCL* 2018-04-25T14:49:45Z rme: one more thing: default optimization settings are tested the best 2018-04-25T14:49:49Z Xach: rme: I have a function that is signaling an invalid memory operation but it's not clear to me which specific form is causing it. I don't see obvious foreign calls and it's compiled with high safety. Will keep digging. 2018-04-25T14:50:28Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:51:00Z phoe: Xach: which system is it in? 2018-04-25T14:51:04Z Xach: The top of the backtrace is CCL::%CALL-NEXT-METHOD-WITH-ARGS 2018-04-25T14:51:08Z Xach: phoe: private. 2018-04-25T14:51:12Z rme: phoe: there's a thing in ccl called a compiler-policy that can be manipulated, but it's not documented in the manual 2018-04-25T14:51:22Z phoe: Xach: got it. 2018-04-25T14:51:28Z phoe: rme: I see. 2018-04-25T14:51:32Z rme: using ccl 1.11.5? 2018-04-25T14:51:54Z Xach: rme: "Version 1.12-dev/v1.12-dev.1 (DarwinX8664)" 2018-04-25T14:52:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:53:10Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:53:14Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:53:27Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:53:35Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:53:52Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:54:03Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T14:54:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:55:05Z rme: OK. That's the development branch. Could you possibly try the release branch (https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/tag/v1.11.5), and see if it works there? Maybe you've found a bug in the development branch. 2018-04-25T14:55:20Z Xach: rme: I can try it. But I was hoping to have the complex float bug fix too. 2018-04-25T14:55:24Z pdv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T14:55:59Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:57:03Z rme: I understand. But if we can determine that the bug is in 1.12-dev, then I can try to fix it. 2018-04-25T14:57:14Z Xach: Ok, will try & report 2018-04-25T14:57:19Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T14:58:49Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:01:08Z pdv quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z Cymew quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z jealousmonk quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z pfdietz quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z Fare quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z m00natic quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z ioa quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z johnvonneumann quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z d4ryus quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z earl-ducaine quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z himmAllRight quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z nimiux quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z ft quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z dvdmuckle quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T15:01:09Z tokenrove quit (*.net *.split) 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Yes, it is a bug in 1.12-dev. But it is in private code. Not sure how I can properly reproduce and report :( 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z kmcgivney joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z FAUST|siccegge joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z NccT joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z Younder joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z oBYZ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z Kaisyu7 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z rotty joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z cgay joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z blt joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z bend3r joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z sveit joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z 07IACTE48 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z adlai joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:12Z osune joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:24Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:34Z stux|RC quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-25T15:04:39Z kumori[m] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:42Z beach: jmercouris: Anything you find unclear about the README? 2018-04-25T15:04:42Z stux|RC-- joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:04:48Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:49Z Jach[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:51Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:51Z dirb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:51Z cryptomarauder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:51Z Guest35662 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:51Z harlequin78[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:52Z LdBeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:52Z spectrumgomas[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:04:52Z jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:07Z katco[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:08Z mhitchman[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:08Z eatonphil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:08Z plll[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:09Z kammd[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:09Z equalunique[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:09Z GNUPONUT[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:10Z hdurer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:10Z blisp[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:10Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:14Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:19Z drunk_foxx[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:20Z CharlieBrown quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:27Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:39Z lyosha[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:05:39Z theemacsshibe[m] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:06:00Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, I am wondering how this is different from some projects that aim to "extend" the lisp language by adding some standard "modernizaion" features 2018-04-25T15:06:08Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:06:24Z jmercouris: I can't remember the names of these packages, but I remember them being quite controversial 2018-04-25T15:06:27Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:06:52Z jmercouris: s/modernizaion/modernization 2018-04-25T15:06:55Z phoe: cl21? 2018-04-25T15:06:58Z jmercouris: phoe: yes 2018-04-25T15:07:12Z beach: jmercouris: It is different in that I plan no extension whatsoever. 2018-04-25T15:07:17Z Fare: for standard modernization, see clojure 2018-04-25T15:07:28Z phoe: cl21 flips the language upside down, beach's wscl doesn't AFAIR change anything in the specified behavior 2018-04-25T15:07:42Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:07:47Z phoe: and only focuses on what's unspecified and/or undefined 2018-04-25T15:07:48Z Fare: what does WSCL stand for? 2018-04-25T15:08:02Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:08:02Z beach: Correct. Anything that is specified in the Common Lisp standard is specified in the same way in WSCL. 2018-04-25T15:08:08Z phoe: well specified common lisp 2018-04-25T15:08:09Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:08:13Z verisimilitude: So, this seeks to restrict behavior further? 2018-04-25T15:08:14Z Fare: in ACL2 ? 2018-04-25T15:08:14Z beach: Fare: I take it you didn't bother to follow the link. 2018-04-25T15:08:17Z FAUST|siccegge quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:08:20Z Fare: what link? 2018-04-25T15:08:25Z phoe: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp 2018-04-25T15:08:41Z phoe: verisimilitude: define "restrict" 2018-04-25T15:08:43Z beach: Fare: You asked what is WSCL, and I immediately gave you a link. 2018-04-25T15:08:48Z jmercouris: beach: so you are doing the definition creation/specification of edge cases/holes in the current spec? 2018-04-25T15:08:57Z Fare: sorry, too many windows 2018-04-25T15:09:01Z verisimilitude: So, some behavior that is allowed is no longer allowed is what I mean. 2018-04-25T15:09:05Z ineiros joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:09:07Z rippa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:09:08Z phoe: in a way, yes 2018-04-25T15:09:13Z Fare: and then it got drowned in a netsplit 2018-04-25T15:09:40Z beach: jmercouris: Exactly. Specify many cases of unspecified behavior, possibly relative to OPTIMIZE quality values. 2018-04-25T15:10:17Z beach: jmercouris: But again, following as much as possible what major existing implementations already do. 2018-04-25T15:10:29Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:10:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:10:35Z jmercouris: Right, so basically a standard "final draft" given all the knowledge we have now 2018-04-25T15:10:47Z jmercouris: not really changing anything, just polishing and smoothing out 2018-04-25T15:11:03Z Fare: beach, will you address all the errata on cliki? 2018-04-25T15:11:04Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:11:08Z sellout- joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:11:22Z beach: Fare: Yes, I think so. 2018-04-25T15:11:36Z beach: jmercouris: Take AREF for example. 2018-04-25T15:11:39Z beach: clhs aref 2018-04-25T15:11:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 2018-04-25T15:11:55Z beach: jmercouris: What happens if ARRAY is not an array? 2018-04-25T15:12:25Z Fare: what about pathnames? Will you scour the mess? 2018-04-25T15:12:26Z jmercouris: I'm not sure, it doesn't seem to say 2018-04-25T15:12:27Z beach: jmercouris: According to the Common Lisp HyperSpec, the implementation can then do anything, including erasing your hard disk. 2018-04-25T15:12:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:12:35Z verisimilitude: What is your opinion on the permitted sharing behavior of Common Lisp, beach? 2018-04-25T15:12:38Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:12:52Z beach: jmercouris: But there is a page that says, if the type of an argument is violated, then the behavior is unspecified. 2018-04-25T15:12:53Z verisimilitude: That is, many functions and whatnot of Common Lisp permit structure to be shared or objects to be freshly created or not. 2018-04-25T15:13:08Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:13:21Z Fare: will you specify pathnames enough to make them usable on arbitrary Unix paths? 2018-04-25T15:13:29Z beach: Fare: Probably not. 2018-04-25T15:13:41Z beach: Fare: But I might consult someone to help me with it. 2018-04-25T15:13:54Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T15:13:56Z beach: Fare: It would certainly be a good thing to do. 2018-04-25T15:13:57Z Fare: respectively Windows paths, on Windows, etc. 2018-04-25T15:14:02Z jmercouris: beach: I guess you will revise this and come up with some sort of type error? 2018-04-25T15:14:25Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, and probably only in so called "safe code" (which is formally defined). 2018-04-25T15:14:47Z beach: jmercouris: But all implementations already signal a type error anyway, so I am not doing anything controversial here. 2018-04-25T15:14:53Z arbv joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:15:00Z jmercouris: Yeah, I've raised it myself many a time :D 2018-04-25T15:15:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:15:13Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:15:15Z Fare: (of course, paths become even more "interesting" if you have to deal with per-filesystem Unicode normalization...) 2018-04-25T15:15:17Z beach: "signaled". Errors are signaled in Common Lisp, not raised. 2018-04-25T15:15:26Z jmercouris: yes, sorry, I've been doing python for the past 2 weeks 2018-04-25T15:15:32Z beach: Sorry to hear that. 2018-04-25T15:15:35Z verisimilitude: I believe the users of Common Lisp are sufficiently different from the users of C that arguments that lead to a hellish interpretation of the standard won't happen or would be ignored. 2018-04-25T15:15:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:15:37Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-04-25T15:15:55Z phoe: beach: you might also want to change 13.1.4.3.4 2018-04-25T15:16:06Z verisimilitude: That is, there's enough Common Lisp implementations that already follow the spirit of the language, as opposed to how C fares. 2018-04-25T15:16:23Z Fare: (and of course, you can never know for sure what file system will be used to interpret a given path) 2018-04-25T15:16:30Z phoe: because this subchapter is not followed by any modern CL implementation due to how Unicode works. 2018-04-25T15:16:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:17:01Z beach: phoe: The good thing is that not everything has to be done right away. 2018-04-25T15:17:22Z phoe: beach: yep 2018-04-25T15:17:29Z beach: phoe: And that I can gather together a "standards committee" of experts that I can select myself. 2018-04-25T15:17:34Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:18:06Z Xach: beach: have you read the emails on that topic from the early 80s? it is some interesting history. 2018-04-25T15:18:10Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:18:16Z beach: phoe: I certainly won't take advice from the numerous newbies in #lisp who have opinions about how the language or the standard ought to change, without having the slightest idea about how languages are created, nor how they are implemented. 2018-04-25T15:18:34Z Xach: beach: because they thought they were private, they talked freely and frankly about who was unsuitable and why. 2018-04-25T15:18:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:18:55Z beach: Xach: I think I must have read them, but I can't keep those things in my memory. 2018-04-25T15:19:20Z beach: Xach: That is no doubt an interesting read. 2018-04-25T15:19:22Z Xach: I worry that they will be lost from the internet's memory some time. 2018-04-25T15:19:34Z beach: Let's try to avoid that. 2018-04-25T15:20:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:20:30Z jmercouris: The information if beamed into space, will never be lost 2018-04-25T15:20:52Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:20:59Z jmercouris: I think people were onto something when they came up with that early memory that involved waves bouncing around in mercury 2018-04-25T15:22:20Z loke: jmercouris: mercury delay lines? 2018-04-25T15:22:31Z jmercouris: loke: yea 2018-04-25T15:22:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:22:41Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:22:46Z jmercouris: the universe could make a very long "persistent" memory in the same way 2018-04-25T15:23:24Z Bronsa: Fare: I love clojure but "for standard modernization see clojure", is just nonsense, clojure is not standardized in any way 2018-04-25T15:23:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:23:41Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:23:44Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:24:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:25:04Z loke: Bronsa: A lot of design choices in Clojure are outright bad. If those are called "modern" I'll stick with old thankyouverymuch. 2018-04-25T15:25:06Z warweasle: Bronsa: That's fairly common with lisp. Common lisp threw in almost everything from the existing lisps. 2018-04-25T15:25:41Z warweasle: loke: Same with Arc. Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon. 2018-04-25T15:25:52Z ealfonso: sorry if this seems trivial, but how do I get the address of a SB-SYS:INT-SAP: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD411ED00) 2018-04-25T15:25:53Z Bronsa: loke: I am not trying to sell clojure to you, feel free to stick with common lisp 2018-04-25T15:26:16Z loke: Bronsa: I've written quite a bit of CLojure. 2018-04-25T15:26:17Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:26:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:27:04Z Bronsa: warweasle: "Common lisp threw in almost everything from the existing lisps" that's not really true, but not relevant. What I was saying is not that clojure is different (which it is), but that it doesn't have a standard or a spec, so suggesting clojure as a "modernized standard" is nonsense IMO 2018-04-25T15:27:35Z Bronsa: eugh, warweasle sorry I misread "threw in" as "threw away", ignore me 2018-04-25T15:27:47Z ealfonso: I tried (sb-mop:class-direct-slots (class-of my-ptr)), which returns nil 2018-04-25T15:28:23Z Bronsa: loke: cool, me too, so what? :) again all I said is that clojure is not standardized, I havent questioned your knowledge of clojure or promoted it so I don't understand the uncalled attack on it 2018-04-25T15:28:43Z verisimilitude: So, is poor debugging, which is still the case with Clojure from what I've read, considered modern? 2018-04-25T15:28:54Z verisimilitude: It's certainly modern if you look at C, Rust, Go, et al. 2018-04-25T15:29:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:29:44Z Bronsa: clojure has some decent debugging experience now, certainly not at the level of CL restart system + SLIME but not println level 2018-04-25T15:30:08Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T15:30:25Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:30:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:30:44Z FAUST|siccegge joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:30:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:31:02Z loke: Bronsa: Well. I tend to take all opportunities to attack it, probably more often than necessary. 2018-04-25T15:31:12Z schweers: beach: why do you (and others?) insist on the terminology of a condition being “signalled” instead of being “thrown”? Is there a deeper meaning to the terms than I am seeing? 2018-04-25T15:31:38Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-25T15:31:39Z Arathnim: It took awhile, but other languages are cathing up with CL's SLIME debugging, most notably Python + Jupyter. 2018-04-25T15:31:46Z verisimilitude: Firstly, there's THROW and CATCH, already. 2018-04-25T15:31:49Z loke: schweers: there is, actually. "throw" implies that the stack is unrolled. 2018-04-25T15:31:53Z tfb: schweers: signalling a conditon is different than tranferring control 2018-04-25T15:31:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:31:58Z verisimilitude: Secondly, the function is called SIGNAL. 2018-04-25T15:32:07Z ealfonso: got it: (pointer-address my-ptr) 2018-04-25T15:32:20Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:32:54Z tfb: schweers: and signal handlers can be called *before* the stack is unwound and decide if they want to unwind it or not 2018-04-25T15:32:57Z Bronsa: loke: if random attacks spawned for no reason w/o any argumentation or justification are your thing, keep at it. Not an attitude I like honestly 2018-04-25T15:33:12Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:33:13Z schweers: you’ve got a point, raise or throw does imply things that signal does not do. and yes verisimilitude, you’re right about THROW existing 2018-04-25T15:34:11Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:34:12Z schweers: I sometimes forget how limited “traditional” error handling is :/ 2018-04-25T15:34:53Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:35:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:36:37Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:36:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:37:03Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:37:43Z DemolitionMan: hi 2018-04-25T15:38:08Z loke: Bronsa: It's not usually my thing. There are a few things that causes an itch... Clojure is one of those. Mainly because it's not terrible. It's actually quite good, but fails in some spectacular ways. That's why it's a much more interesting thing to criticise than something that have absolutely no positive attributes whatsoever (like PHP or Mysql :-) ) 2018-04-25T15:38:14Z DemolitionMan: is it possible to have a list of quantities or quantites symbols in antik? 2018-04-25T15:39:35Z DemolitionMan: or simply check a symbol to be a measure unit? 2018-04-25T15:40:04Z verisimilitude: Link to this Antik. 2018-04-25T15:40:10Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:40:19Z DemolitionMan: ? 2018-04-25T15:40:34Z verisimilitude: Is Antik some library? 2018-04-25T15:41:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:41:17Z Guest63554 is now known as kolb 2018-04-25T15:42:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:42:50Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:42:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:42:55Z Bronsa: loke: see, but I don't know what you're talking about when you say it "fails in some spectacular ways" or "a lot of its design choices are outright bad", you've just thrown attacks at it and that's not a productive thing to say (not taking into account that what common lispers perceive as bad design choices simply aren't for what clojure targets). But ok, to each their opinions on languages, I could say the same things you've just said, with CL as a subject ins 2018-04-25T15:43:19Z dlowe: can we take lisp comparison threads to ##lisp please? 2018-04-25T15:43:31Z verisimilitude: Why would that be inappropriate for #lisp? 2018-04-25T15:44:21Z dlowe: it's only tangentally related to common lisp 2018-04-25T15:44:53Z verisimilitude: Right; it's easy to forget that #lisp is about Common Lisp and not Lisp in general. 2018-04-25T15:44:56Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:45:17Z dlowe: also, consider the chances that something new will be expressed 2018-04-25T15:45:22Z jyc quit 2018-04-25T15:45:40Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:45:41Z loke: Bronsa: Oh for sure. There are a few really bad things about CL. 2018-04-25T15:45:56Z jyc joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:46:07Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:46:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:47:36Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:48:13Z beach: schweers: What other people said. The term means something else, and the mechanisms are very different too, so it gives the wrong impression. 2018-04-25T15:48:17Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:48:57Z zbir quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:49:01Z schweers: I never really made this connection between the terms used in different languages, and the mechanisms. But yes, I get it now 2018-04-25T15:49:35Z schweers: At first it seemed to me like a C++ guy asking in a python channel about exceptions being thrown, and the python guys correcting him on his use of terms. 2018-04-25T15:49:46Z beach: Arathnim: Too bad that that's the best they can do. 2018-04-25T15:50:22Z zbir joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:50:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:50:49Z drmeister quit 2018-04-25T15:51:05Z angular_mike_ quit 2018-04-25T15:51:20Z drmeister joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:51:20Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:51:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:51:55Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:51:59Z Arathnim: Yeah, further work would require (and be made much easier by) direct access to the compiler, which is largely unique to lisps. 2018-04-25T15:52:13Z beach: schweers: Terminology is utterly important. And since it is often language specific, it is even more important to use it correctly in the context of a specific language. 2018-04-25T15:52:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:52:23Z jmercouris: Arathnim: Python and jupyter is nowhere near lisp 2018-04-25T15:52:40Z angular_mike_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:53:37Z jmercouris: schweers: I wasn't annoyed because as beach said, indeed there is a difference, and it is important to be precise 2018-04-25T15:53:41Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:54:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:54:48Z schweers: I didn’t get the impression you were annoyed. 2018-04-25T15:55:23Z jmercouris: Indeed, I was not annoyed :D 2018-04-25T15:55:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:55:35Z jmercouris: I'm just saying, if it was the situation you described, I would have been annoyed 2018-04-25T15:56:07Z jmercouris: just how python insists on the term "module" when deep inside, we really know they mean file, 99.99% of the time 2018-04-25T15:56:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:56:28Z cess11_: Haven't used it so I can't say what it can do but this is Antik: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/antik/ 2018-04-25T15:56:42Z cess11_: verisimilitude: 2018-04-25T15:56:54Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:56:54Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:56:56Z lnostdal quit (Excess Flood) 2018-04-25T15:57:00Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:57:18Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:57:38Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:58:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:58:27Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:58:38Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T15:58:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T15:59:14Z verisimilitude: Alright. 2018-04-25T15:59:32Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:00:05Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:02:29Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:02:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:02:46Z haduken joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:02:48Z haduken: greets 2018-04-25T16:02:55Z haduken: is this a functional language? 2018-04-25T16:03:03Z jmercouris: haduken: in some respects, yes 2018-04-25T16:03:13Z jmercouris: Common lisp is a multi paradigm language 2018-04-25T16:03:16Z schweers: depends on how you define functional 2018-04-25T16:03:32Z beach: haduken: Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language. 2018-04-25T16:03:33Z rann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:03:55Z haduken: long ago I tried 'spells' is it still something for beginners? 2018-04-25T16:04:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:04:13Z beach: haduken: Are you planning to learn Common Lisp? 2018-04-25T16:04:17Z haduken: another thing I recall was the awfully outdated snippets which where constantly corrected here. 2018-04-25T16:04:23Z haduken: beach: why not? 2018-04-25T16:04:26Z beach: Sure. 2018-04-25T16:04:34Z beach: haduken: Do you already know some other languages? 2018-04-25T16:04:37Z AntiSpamMeta_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:04:37Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2018-04-25T16:04:37Z AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2018-04-25T16:04:47Z jmercouris: If so, forget everything you know 2018-04-25T16:04:55Z haduken: nope 2018-04-25T16:04:56Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:04:59Z schweers: well, not everything 2018-04-25T16:05:21Z haduken: which material and exercises follow? 2018-04-25T16:05:38Z beach: haduken: If Common Lisp is your first language, many people here would recommend "gentle". 2018-04-25T16:05:46Z beach: minion: Please tell haduken about gentle. 2018-04-25T16:05:46Z minion: haduken: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2018-04-25T16:05:47Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:05:47Z whyNOP_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:06:09Z theBlack1ragon joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:06:19Z abbe_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:06:28Z beach: haduken: Before you choose what programming tools to install, you should consult with people here. It is easy to get it wrong. 2018-04-25T16:06:32Z pacon_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:06:33Z jmercouris: minion: please tell haduken about portacle 2018-04-25T16:06:33Z minion: haduken: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ 2018-04-25T16:06:38Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:06:39Z schweers: I wonder for how many people (Common) Lisp is their first programming language. 2018-04-25T16:06:49Z jackdaniel: minion: chant 2018-04-25T16:06:49Z minion: MORE IMPORTANT 2018-04-25T16:07:15Z jmercouris: ? 2018-04-25T16:07:57Z haduken: wow nice. 2018-04-25T16:08:08Z Xach: schweers: i am curious for how many it is their last 2018-04-25T16:08:13Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:08:15Z schweers: heh! 2018-04-25T16:08:28Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:08:32Z Bronsa: schweers: it was for me 2018-04-25T16:08:40Z schweers: Bronsa: your first or last? 2018-04-25T16:08:43Z Bronsa: first 2018-04-25T16:08:48Z schweers: how did it go? 2018-04-25T16:08:52Z Bronsa: fine 2018-04-25T16:08:56Z jmercouris: Only for people who cease learning will it be their last 2018-04-25T16:09:06Z jmercouris: There will always be at the least DSLs to learn 2018-04-25T16:09:14Z Bronsa: I had some minor knowledge of C and PHP at the time 2018-04-25T16:09:17Z reu_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:09:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:09:30Z sigjuice_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:09:38Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:09:48Z schweers: jmercouris: I also think that some languages have important ideas to teach, even if one never uses them in production 2018-04-25T16:09:58Z schweers: haskell would be such a language, to name but one. 2018-04-25T16:10:10Z jmercouris: schweers: +1, teaching you new ways to think 2018-04-25T16:10:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z theBlackDragon quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z reu quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z jasom quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z rann quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z sigjuice quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z pacon quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:23Z whyNOP quit (*.net *.split) 2018-04-25T16:10:24Z theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 2018-04-25T16:10:27Z rann_ is now known as rann 2018-04-25T16:10:43Z Bronsa: schweers: but I don't recall having major difficulties learning it, I was reading PCL/ACL/On Lisp/SICP at the time and the union of all those made for a comprehensive learning experience 2018-04-25T16:10:47Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:11:04Z jasom joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:11:06Z fraya: I have a superficial knowledge so I ordered 'On Lisp' from Paul Graham. 2018-04-25T16:11:08Z Bronsa: this almost was a decade ago tho and I was 16 so I don't remember much 2018-04-25T16:11:21Z schweers: lucky you 2018-04-25T16:13:23Z verisimilitude: So, no response, Xach? 2018-04-25T16:13:43Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:13:58Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:14:19Z Bronsa: schweers: re: languages having important ideas even if never used in prod -- I absolutely agree! my instance of this is shen, I'll never ever think of using it in production but it has some very interesting (and crazy) ideas 2018-04-25T16:14:31Z haduken: what about exercises? 2018-04-25T16:15:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:15:06Z schweers: Bronsa: this one? http://www.shenlanguage.org/ 2018-04-25T16:15:09Z Bronsa: yes 2018-04-25T16:15:24Z schweers: never heard of it, but it seems I should take a look some day 2018-04-25T16:15:35Z Bronsa: it will make your lisp brain implode in horror 2018-04-25T16:15:55Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:16:09Z Bronsa: once you accept it's a "special" lisp tho, it's got some very unique and super interesting things 2018-04-25T16:16:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:16:18Z schweers: uh ... runs on sbcl (among others) and has a bsd kernel? 2018-04-25T16:16:20Z schweers: wat? 2018-04-25T16:16:51Z Bronsa: BSD licensed 2018-04-25T16:17:02Z schweers: oh that’s what they mean 2018-04-25T16:17:07Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T16:17:08Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:17:12Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:17:28Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:17:49Z haduken: does lisp benefit from fira code? 2018-04-25T16:18:23Z Bronsa: lisp doesn't use as many symbols as other languages 2018-04-25T16:18:52Z Bronsa: so less than other languages IMO 2018-04-25T16:18:53Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:19:03Z haduken: what about exercises? 2018-04-25T16:19:11Z haduken: that's about the most important. 2018-04-25T16:19:16Z beach: haduken: Did you check "gentle"? 2018-04-25T16:19:43Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:19:53Z haduken: beach: ah, ok yes, I thought that was without exercises. 2018-04-25T16:19:58Z verisimilitude: From a cursory glance, it seems to, yes, DemolitionMan. 2018-04-25T16:20:08Z beach: haduken: It might be. I can't remember. 2018-04-25T16:20:26Z DemolitionMan: verisimilitude: seems no to me... 2018-04-25T16:20:27Z haduken: :( 2018-04-25T16:20:34Z verisimilitude: (list #_1_meters #_2_meters #_3_meters #_4_meters) 2018-04-25T16:20:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:20:43Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:21:12Z beach: haduken: It definitely has exercises. 2018-04-25T16:21:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:21:49Z Bronsa: it does and they're quite incremental from what I remember 2018-04-25T16:21:59Z beach: Indeed. 2018-04-25T16:22:59Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:23:37Z verisimilitude: Can you not do that, DemolitionMan? 2018-04-25T16:23:51Z verisimilitude: They're just Lisp objects. 2018-04-25T16:25:36Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:27:04Z devlaf quit 2018-04-25T16:27:21Z devlaf joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:28:11Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:28:29Z verisimilitude: It will be good when github dies; then Free Software projects won't be able to prioritize it at the expense of other venues. 2018-04-25T16:29:52Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:30:19Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:30:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T16:31:05Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:31:40Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:33:47Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T16:35:05Z verisimilitude: So, are you still having your issues, DemolitionMan? 2018-04-25T16:35:28Z haduken: beach: thanks 2018-04-25T16:36:36Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:36:46Z beach: haduken: Anytime. 2018-04-25T16:37:01Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:37:51Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z Jach[m]1 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z Guest71750 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z kammd[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z katco[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-25T16:38:21Z theemacsshibe[m] 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fiddlerwoaroof: Not really 2018-04-25T17:39:38Z jackdaniel: SBCL/CCL/ECL behave differently wrt directories and symlinks 2018-04-25T17:40:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'll occasionally upgrade SBCL, etc., but I've used both SBCL and CCL without problems for a long time 2018-04-25T17:40:24Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T17:41:07Z Bronsa` joined #lisp 2018-04-25T17:42:09Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T17:42:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-25T17:43:13Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T17:43:21Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T17:45:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T17:46:19Z troydm joined #lisp 2018-04-25T17:47:22Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T17:47:24Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T17:48:27Z phoe: I have a class with slots which have class allocation. 2018-04-25T17:48:28Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-25T17:48:39Z zbir quit (Remote host closed 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2018-04-25T18:18:59Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:19:13Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:19:18Z Bike: ccl or sbcl. and you can just say "lisp". 2018-04-25T18:19:56Z MasouDa quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-25T18:19:59Z pyc: Bike: Why do you recommend "lisp" as opposed to "common lisp"? 2018-04-25T18:20:15Z Bike: I meant "lisp" instead of "LISP". 2018-04-25T18:20:17Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:20:36Z Bike: or "Lisp". just, it's not some 50s initialism 2018-04-25T18:21:06Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:21:41Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:22:10Z dlowe: I prefer CL to avoid the ambiguity 2018-04-25T18:22:32Z pyc: https://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation says SBCL is only experimental on Mac, FreeBSD and Windows. 2018-04-25T18:22:53Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:23:15Z makomo: fiddlerwoaroof: if you made the symlink without restarting the lisp image, perhaps you have to use (ql:register-local-projects)? 2018-04-25T18:23:17Z dlowe: though I think perhaps a newcomer shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it compiles to machine code while learning 2018-04-25T18:23:25Z Bike: that page could be out of date. i believe it works perfectly well on mac and freebsd, and pretty well on windows. 2018-04-25T18:23:26Z beach: pyc: On Mac and Windows, you can buy a license for a commercial Common Lisp implementation. 2018-04-25T18:23:28Z dlowe: as long as it produces the correct results 2018-04-25T18:24:06Z Bike: http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html as you can see on sbcl's own webpage, freebsd, windows, and darwin are marked as "Available and supported" (on some architectures) 2018-04-25T18:24:18Z makomo: fiddlerwoaroof: another thing that caused problems for me was that i was violating ASDF's rules (afaik) by not having the system named "foo" in the file named "foo.asd" 2018-04-25T18:25:25Z dlowe: might as well just take the system name out of the form, 2018-04-25T18:25:29Z makomo: not sure if either of these apply to you since you said you've been using sbcl/ccl for a long time, but it doesn't hurt to check i guess 2018-04-25T18:27:57Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:28:23Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:29:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:30:33Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:31:23Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:31:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:33:03Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:33:54Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:34:02Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:36:58Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:37:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:38:50Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:39:10Z xieyuheng joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:39:29Z longshi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:39:34Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:40:10Z ealfonso: can I have an extendable nx3 array? I'm getting "only vectors can have fill pointers" 2018-04-25T18:40:23Z phoe: ealfonso: extendable? what do you mean? 2018-04-25T18:40:23Z ealfonso: extensible 2018-04-25T18:40:46Z phoe: ealfonso: if you have to, you can always use ADJUST-ARRAY 2018-04-25T18:40:50Z Bike: meaning vector push extend works, i assume 2018-04-25T18:40:59Z Bike: i'm not sure what "nx3" is, though 2018-04-25T18:41:26Z ealfonso: Nx3 where N changes at run time 2018-04-25T18:41:38Z jasom: ealfonso: so what is x3? 2018-04-25T18:41:56Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:42:02Z Younder: Remember the 'golden rule' if you have more data you usually have a *lot* more data so grow by a factor of 2^x 2018-04-25T18:42:12Z jasom: oh, you mean a 2 dimensional array? No. Fill pointers only apply to vectors 2018-04-25T18:42:13Z ealfonso: jasom I know in advance the inner dimension 2018-04-25T18:42:21Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:42:49Z Bike: you can use adjust-array to change the size of an array (pass make-array :adjustable t), but vector-push-extend will only work on vectors 2018-04-25T18:43:18Z ealfonso: Bike phoe ok. thanks 2018-04-25T18:43:24Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:44:23Z sjl: you could have a vector with a fill-pointer displaced to your 2d array 2018-04-25T18:45:00Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:45:13Z sjl: (defparameter *arr* (make-array (list 4 3))) 2018-04-25T18:45:13Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T18:45:15Z sjl: (defparameter *v* (make-array 12 :displaced-to *arr* :fill-pointer 0)) 2018-04-25T18:45:17Z sjl: (vector-push-extend 1 *v*) 2018-04-25T18:45:18Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:45:19Z sjl: *arr* ; => #2A((1 0 0) (0 0 0) (0 0 0) (0 0 0)) 2018-04-25T18:45:23Z light2yellow: how does one call ' (quote-operator)? an alias for `quote'? a special operator? a macro? what is it? 2018-04-25T18:45:42Z phoe: light2yellow: call? 2018-04-25T18:45:45Z jasom: light2yellow: it's a reader macro that expands to a special operator 2018-04-25T18:45:47Z phoe: what do you mean, call? 2018-04-25T18:45:49Z light2yellow: okay, maybe "define" 2018-04-25T18:45:51Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:45:55Z phoe: 'foo is equivalent to (quote foo) 2018-04-25T18:45:55Z Younder: push-extend is very expensive for single elements 2018-04-25T18:45:57Z light2yellow: I'm bad at wording :( 2018-04-25T18:45:59Z phoe: and QUOTE is a special operator 2018-04-25T18:46:01Z phoe: clhs quote 2018-04-25T18:46:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 2018-04-25T18:46:15Z jasom: ' is a reader macro QUOTE is a special operator 2018-04-25T18:46:15Z sjl: light2yellow: you mean when speaking about it to other humans? 2018-04-25T18:46:25Z light2yellow: yes, I know quote is a special operator. what is ' ? 2018-04-25T18:46:31Z Bike: a reader macro 2018-04-25T18:46:35Z jasom: though built-in reader macros are usually jsut called "syntax" 2018-04-25T18:46:35Z light2yellow: no, when formally defining it 2018-04-25T18:46:52Z light2yellow: a reader macro, yes. thank you Bike 2018-04-25T18:47:12Z Bike: you can do (get-macro-character #\') to get the function involved 2018-04-25T18:47:21Z Bike: takes uh... i always forget what parameters. maybe just a stream 2018-04-25T18:47:25Z Younder: Reader macro's are a part of the extensible syntax of Lisp allowing custom languages like Yacc and Lex 2018-04-25T18:47:29Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:47:54Z Younder: sory so you dont need languages like Yacc or Lex 2018-04-25T18:47:56Z ealfonso: sjl thanks. I guess I would have to call vector-push-extend 3 times in my case. I can also just pack/unpack multiple small ints into one 2018-04-25T18:48:23Z sjl: ealfonso: you might just want to write a function that takes 3 elements and does 3 aref's 2018-04-25T18:48:33Z sjl: sometimes it's easy to be too clever 2018-04-25T18:48:59Z Younder: Extensible arrays is a hint of bad math 2018-04-25T18:50:05Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:50:47Z ealfonso: Younder not much to do with math, I'm storing a game move that consists of a 3-tuple, and an arbitrary # of moves can be added 2018-04-25T18:51:09Z jasom: perhaps a vector of structs then? 2018-04-25T18:51:18Z sjl: yeah, I'd do a vector of structs for that 2018-04-25T18:51:22Z ealfonso: jasom yeah, probably 2018-04-25T18:52:33Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:52:46Z ealfonso: not sure why I was thinking arrays/vectors could only hold ints 2018-04-25T18:52:55Z phoe: ealfonso: holy hell no 2018-04-25T18:53:02Z phoe: they can hold any Lisp data 2018-04-25T18:53:36Z phoe: How can I access a slot's value if the slot is defined with :ALLOCATION :CLASS and I only want to access the class metaobject and not an instance of that class? 2018-04-25T18:53:51Z Bike: class-prototype, i think. 2018-04-25T18:53:53Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:54:04Z Bike: that's still an instance, but eh 2018-04-25T18:55:45Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:56:06Z phoe: not a newly made one 2018-04-25T18:56:11Z phoe: Bike: that's what I was looking for, thanks 2018-04-25T18:56:22Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:56:37Z light2yellow: from the definition of reader macro ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/26_glo_r.htm#reader_macro ) it is now clear if it has any relation to quote special operator. in learning materials they often go together, but do they really have any connection? because one is not defined in terms of another. in notes to quote ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm#quote ) 2018-04-25T18:56:39Z light2yellow: it says "The textual notation 'object is equivalent to (quote object); see Section 3.2.1 (Compiler Terminology).", but I didn't manage to find anything relevant 2018-04-25T18:56:46Z light2yellow: s/now/not/ 2018-04-25T18:57:21Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T18:57:23Z phoe: in standard syntax, the character #\' names a reader macro. 2018-04-25T18:57:37Z phoe: that reader macro expands to a form containing the quote special operator. 2018-04-25T18:57:45Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:57:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T18:57:59Z Bike: clhs 2.4.3 2018-04-25T18:57:59Z specbot: Single-Quote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 2018-04-25T18:58:13Z Bike: in the "Standard Reader Macros" section. 2018-04-25T18:58:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T18:58:24Z jasom: clhs ' 2018-04-25T18:58:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 2018-04-25T19:00:02Z light2yellow: I see, missed it somehow, thanks 2018-04-25T19:02:15Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T19:02:45Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:04:08Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:05:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:07:20Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:11:54Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:12:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:13:09Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:15:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:16:28Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:17:40Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:18:18Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:19:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:21:11Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca 2018-04-25T19:21:14Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:22:57Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:23:20Z nn joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:24:52Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: ql:list-local-projects may help debug the issue 2018-04-25T19:25:01Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:27:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:27:06Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T19:27:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:29:20Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:30:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:30:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:33:33Z verisimilitude: So, I've experienced some issues with xterm I don't believe I'll be able to work around, but which I also don't believe are my problem at this point, with regards to my terminal library. I'll explain. 2018-04-25T19:33:39Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-25T19:33:54Z verisimilitude: Xterm sends mouse events like this: ESCAPE [ M x y z 2018-04-25T19:34:05Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:34:58Z verisimilitude: Here, x, y, and z are arbitrary bytes, with x denoting the mouse and y and z denoting the mouse position, plus thirty two. 2018-04-25T19:35:35Z verisimilitude: So, clicking the top left corner with the first mouse button sends ESCAPE followed by ``[M !!''. 2018-04-25T19:35:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:36:03Z cage__ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:36:05Z verisimilitude: In their wisdom, the xterm developers thought a limit below 256x256 was reasonable, but that's not the main issue. 2018-04-25T19:36:10Z jasom: what if the terminal is more than 96x96? 2018-04-25T19:36:16Z verisimilitude: The main issue is that xterm will send invalid UTF-8 sequences. 2018-04-25T19:36:21Z verisimilitude: It simply sends nothing, jasom. 2018-04-25T19:36:34Z verisimilitude: So, a Common Lisp that doesn't understand UTF-8 won't be able to read it properly. 2018-04-25T19:36:50Z verisimilitude: A Common Lisp that does understand UTF-8 will return a different character, since it's an invalid sequence. 2018-04-25T19:36:50Z jasom: verisimilitude: use binary I/O? 2018-04-25T19:37:03Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-25T19:37:08Z jasom: use binary I/O, strip out escape codes and then decode the UTF-8 2018-04-25T19:37:11Z phoe: don't use a character stream if you send binary data 2018-04-25T19:37:24Z verisimilitude: How am I to do this with, say, *TERMINAL-IO*, jasom? 2018-04-25T19:37:41Z jasom: verisimilitude: on sbcl *terminal-io* is already bivalent IIRC 2018-04-25T19:37:48Z phoe: jasom: that's not the issue 2018-04-25T19:37:53Z phoe: clhs *terminal-io* 2018-04-25T19:37:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_termin.htm 2018-04-25T19:37:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:38:15Z phoe: this stream is a character stream and not an stream of (unsigned-byte 8)s 2018-04-25T19:38:27Z jasom: phoe: you can read-byte on it, because it's bivalent on sbcl 2018-04-25T19:38:32Z jasom: probably not on ccl though 2018-04-25T19:38:34Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:38:35Z verisimilitude: Exactly. 2018-04-25T19:38:42Z verisimilitude: I don't care if it only works on SBCL. 2018-04-25T19:38:46Z phoe: hm 2018-04-25T19:38:54Z verisimilitude: So, this is why I don't consider it my problem. 2018-04-25T19:38:56Z phoe: in that case you could try using flexi-streams that *should* work 2018-04-25T19:39:13Z verisimilitude: One can already look at X11 and tell it was designed by idiots, but this is a great example of just how stupid they are. 2018-04-25T19:39:47Z jasom: doh! *standard-input* is bivalent, but *terminal-io* is not. You can get the underlying FD from sbcl though and make a new fd stream from it 2018-04-25T19:40:03Z verisimilitude: The ECMA-48 standards sends real control functions for reporting this kind of information, but I suppose they wanted to save a few bytes or spare C from parsing anything, since it would get that wrong. 2018-04-25T19:40:19Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:40:27Z verisimilitude: I only care about what I can do in ANSI Common Lisp, jasom. 2018-04-25T19:40:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:40:47Z phoe: verisimilitude: then the standard does not give you what you want 2018-04-25T19:40:50Z jasom: verisimilitude: you can't do binary IO to the teriminal in ANSI common lisp. Just like you can't invoke the GC or run an external program 2018-04-25T19:40:56Z jasom: or spawn a thread 2018-04-25T19:40:59Z verisimilitude: Yes. 2018-04-25T19:41:03Z verisimilitude: So, it won't get done. 2018-04-25T19:41:10Z verisimilitude: The blame is on the idiots who designed xterm. 2018-04-25T19:41:17Z phoe: >idiots 2018-04-25T19:41:39Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:41:40Z phoe: surely they haven't thought of everything that everyone would have been doing years after they've designed the protocol, have they 2018-04-25T19:41:42Z jasom: verisimilitude: there is a good chance that this protocol did not come originally from xterm. Many escape codes predate X by at least a decade. 2018-04-25T19:41:55Z verisimilitude: Again, even if I could do this, it still wouldn't work on a terminal larger than 224x224. 2018-04-25T19:42:09Z verisimilitude: It's the X10 mouse protocol, jasom. 2018-04-25T19:43:11Z verisimilitude: Now, the ECMA-48 ACTIVE POSITION REPORT sends the current cursor position, but it encodes this in decimal. So, you may get ESCAPE [ 1 ; 1 R or ESCAPE [ 100 ; 50 R, but this clearly works at any reasonable terminal dimension and technically has no limit. 2018-04-25T19:43:22Z foom: Going around calling everyone idiots is not a productive way to communicate. 2018-04-25T19:43:28Z verisimilitude: Meanwhile, xterm limits itself to 224x224 to save a few bytes and remove the need to parse things. 2018-04-25T19:43:43Z verisimilitude: I'm not calling everyone an idiot, just the idiot who designed this. 2018-04-25T19:44:07Z jasom: It's almost like they were writing this in C where parsing strings is hard, but treating characters like integers is trivial? 2018-04-25T19:44:12Z verisimilitude: It's broken and was designed with no mind to the future. 2018-04-25T19:44:40Z verisimilitude: Exactly, jasom. 2018-04-25T19:44:53Z foom: All day you've been saying this or that was disgusting, disgrace, these people are idiots, etc. 2018-04-25T19:45:10Z jasom: I try to design things with no mind to the future. 99% of the time it won't last so why waste the effort? 2018-04-25T19:45:34Z phoe: verisimilitude: no, it's the idiots behind CL who designed the language in a way that it's impossible to switch streams between binary and character modes. This thing is broken and was designed with no mind to the future. /s 2018-04-25T19:45:49Z verisimilitude: I'll agree that it's inconvenient, phoe. 2018-04-25T19:46:04Z phoe: And I'll disagree that calling them idiots is anyhow justified. 2018-04-25T19:46:07Z verisimilitude: Still, it's nice that Common Lisp isn't tied to ASCII or anything else. 2018-04-25T19:46:19Z verisimilitude: You're free to disagree with me on that, of course. 2018-04-25T19:46:59Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:47:00Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-25T19:47:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:47:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:48:03Z verisimilitude: Well, I thought that was an interesting little tidbit; I hope some of you also found it interesting. 2018-04-25T19:48:41Z jasom: someone calling people idiots who built something 30 years ago that is still being used today seems a bit arrogant. All engineering decisions are imperfect, so finding an imperfection does not imply the decision maker was an idiot 2018-04-25T19:49:54Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:49:58Z verisimilitude: I disagree that you can't make a perfect decision in any circumstance. 2018-04-25T19:50:20Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T19:50:41Z verisimilitude: People always like to claim that every thing is broken or imperfect, but they get angry if their processor decides to stop adding numbers correctly. 2018-04-25T19:51:25Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:51:28Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:51:29Z foom: I mean, I'm not sure why you're even complaining about this, when you could just use the other mouse-reporting mode? 2018-04-25T19:51:39Z phoe: verisimilitude: well, good luck with making your own decisions. if you fail, you'll likely get called an idiot by someone like-minded. 2018-04-25T19:51:41Z verisimilitude: The correct way to do this, jasom, would've been to send a control function similar to ACTIVE POSITION REPORT, which wouldn't have any of these issues. 2018-04-25T19:52:04Z verisimilitude: You see, that control function and others were designed by people with some foresight and brains. 2018-04-25T19:52:06Z MichaelRaskin: Well, incorrect division is quite acceptable, though 2018-04-25T19:52:23Z verisimilitude: I'm supporting several mouse reporting modes, foom. 2018-04-25T19:53:16Z longshi joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:54:17Z sukaeto: beach: why do you (and others?) insist on the terminology of a condition being “signalled” instead of being “thrown”? Is there a deeper meaning to the terms than I am seeing? 2018-04-25T19:54:46Z sukaeto: ^ since (unless I missed it, in which case, sorry) no one else explicitly pointed it out - because that is the term defined and used in the Common Lisp spec 2018-04-25T19:54:55Z jmercouris: sukaeto: yes, there is a difference 2018-04-25T19:55:34Z verisimilitude: For one, there's already THROW and CATCH, sukaeto. 2018-04-25T19:55:48Z sukaeto: jmercouris, verisimilitude: I was quoting an earlier statement 2018-04-25T19:55:52Z phoe: verisimilitude: this was already answered before 2018-04-25T19:56:00Z sukaeto: I wasn't asking the question myself 2018-04-25T19:56:10Z verisimilitude: Oh, right; my mistake. 2018-04-25T19:57:10Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:57:41Z jmercouris: sukaeto: your question is ambiguous, what is a "deeper meaning"? 2018-04-25T19:57:55Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:58:33Z MichaelRaskin: jmercouris: ask the actual author of the question, I guess 2018-04-25T19:58:35Z sukaeto: jmercouris: again, I did not ask the question. I merely quoted schweers (who, it would unfortunately appear, is not in the channel right now) for context since it was asked a while ago in the back buffer 2018-04-25T19:58:48Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:58:54Z jmercouris: ah, I see now, I misunderstood the message 2018-04-25T19:59:01Z jmercouris: you were literally quoting schweers, not addressing them 2018-04-25T19:59:08Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-25T19:59:13Z sukaeto: well, I meant to address them 2018-04-25T19:59:16Z sukaeto: with the very next thing I said 2018-04-25T19:59:49Z jmercouris: well, it seems like your question is not a question then 2018-04-25T20:00:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:00:15Z sukaeto: I didn't ask a question - I made a statement 2018-04-25T20:00:15Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:00:24Z jmercouris: did I say something else just now? 2018-04-25T20:00:26Z sukaeto: the entire first thing I "said" was the quote from schweers 2018-04-25T20:00:32Z jmercouris: Yes, I understand 2018-04-25T20:00:33Z sukaeto: the second thing I said was my response to their question 2018-04-25T20:00:49Z sukaeto: oh, I see what you're saying :-) 2018-04-25T20:01:01Z Xach: Who is on first? 2018-04-25T20:01:50Z verisimilitude: Why not you, Xach; you can answer my question. 2018-04-25T20:02:22Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:04:25Z verisimilitude: I like to think I've been more than patient. 2018-04-25T20:05:14Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-25T20:05:56Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:06:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:06:35Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:06:56Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:09:07Z verisimilitude quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T20:09:27Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:11:46Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:13:27Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:14:46Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:15:40Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:15:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:16:02Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-04-25T20:16:02Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:17:03Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-25T20:17:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T20:20:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:21:21Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:21:39Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:22:34Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:22:46Z verisimilitude: I just want to know what the issue is so I can correct it. 2018-04-25T20:24:09Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:24:28Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:25:49Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-25T20:26:09Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:27:12Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:27:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:28:27Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:33:02Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2018-04-25T20:33:13Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T20:33:18Z sea joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:33:32Z sea: How do I undo a (defpackage foo ...) ? I want to..un-defpackage it 2018-04-25T20:35:17Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T20:35:23Z Bike: there's delete-package 2018-04-25T20:35:23Z verisimilitude: Have you tried DELETE-PACKAGE? 2018-04-25T20:35:25Z sea: It looks like (delete-package : 2018-04-25T20:35:28Z sea: Yeah I was about to type that 2018-04-25T20:35:53Z sea: Okay, seems like there aren't any other side effects to worry about. 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2018-04-25T22:29:43Z verisimilitude joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:29:53Z catern: like, I'm essentially looking for syntax for handling "asking a human" for something 2018-04-25T22:30:23Z Xach: catern: I think clim might have some concept for that? 2018-04-25T22:30:57Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:31:00Z Xach: y-or-n-p is part of CL and is kind of like that. 2018-04-25T22:32:24Z catern: yeah, it's a lot like any prompt presented to the user 2018-04-25T22:32:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:33:03Z catern: but I'm talking presenting the user with a full-on REPL, where they might use data passed to them or inspect the stack or whatever, in their quest to produce the desired value 2018-04-25T22:33:23Z haduken: I love the diagrams in the lisp intro 2018-04-25T22:33:48Z haduken: helps understanding rather than having to imagine erroneous concepts on my own. 2018-04-25T22:34:46Z itruslove joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:35:03Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-25T22:37:45Z verisimilitude: So, READ, catern? 2018-04-25T22:37:53Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:37:59Z catern: verisimilitude: you can't call functions from READ 2018-04-25T22:38:15Z verisimilitude: Yes you can. 2018-04-25T22:38:25Z verisimilitude: Look into the #. syntax. 2018-04-25T22:38:25Z Xach: catern: interesting 2018-04-25T22:38:55Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:39:01Z catern: verisimilitude: is there a name for that syntax? 2018-04-25T22:39:16Z verisimilitude: You can call it the ``octothorpe dot'' syntax. 2018-04-25T22:39:37Z verisimilitude: So, Xach, can I get an answer to my question, now? 2018-04-25T22:40:03Z catern: verisimilitude: oh... sure, but that's rather awkward 2018-04-25T22:40:12Z catern: you'd want an actual REPL 2018-04-25T22:40:23Z catern: so that the user can build up values incremental 2018-04-25T22:40:24Z catern: ly 2018-04-25T22:42:27Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:44:28Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:45:00Z Tristam joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:47:28Z verisimilitude: I'm not mistaken, Xach is the quicklisp maintainer, right? 2018-04-25T22:47:42Z verisimilitude: Or is Xach and XachX two very different users? 2018-04-25T22:48:01Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:48:52Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-25T22:48:55Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:49:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:49:07Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:50:32Z ealfonso: can I have a vector of structs that I can vector-push-extend? 2018-04-25T22:50:42Z Xach: ealfonso: sure 2018-04-25T22:50:57Z Xach: vectors of any object can be vector-push-extended. 2018-04-25T22:51:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:52:01Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:53:26Z verisimilitude: You are the quicklisp maintainer, right, Xach? 2018-04-25T22:54:08Z verisimilitude: Yes, you are. 2018-04-25T22:54:08Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:54:18Z verisimilitude: So, I'm not mistaken; that's nice. 2018-04-25T22:57:27Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T22:57:36Z ealfonso: but how should I initialize the fill-pointer, which must be a fixnum? 2018-04-25T22:58:55Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:58:56Z ealfonso: ok, I think I got it. I need to specify initial element 2018-04-25T22:59:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T22:59:19Z Bike: (make-array ... :fill-pointer t) initializes the fill pointer to be the initial length 2018-04-25T22:59:51Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T22:59:54Z verisimilitude left #lisp 2018-04-25T23:02:50Z nickername joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:03:46Z nickername: Hey there. 2018-04-25T23:05:00Z nickername: Is this a good place to ask about adding to quicklisp, or should I use github? 2018-04-25T23:06:45Z p_l: nickername: well, there's a faq on website, iirc, github issues are AFAIK the actual final submission mechanism, but for stuff not covered there you can probably bug Xach ? 2018-04-25T23:07:27Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:07:28Z nickername: Thanks p_l. 2018-04-25T23:07:34Z nickername: Is Xach here right now? 2018-04-25T23:08:52Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:09:53Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T23:12:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:13:37Z nn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:14:57Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:16:00Z mathZ joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:18:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:18:24Z brendyn joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:18:26Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-25T23:18:47Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:18:52Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:20:40Z nickername: I need to disconnect for just a minute. 2018-04-25T23:20:42Z nickername quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-25T23:23:53Z nickername joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:24:42Z nickername: I'm back. :) 2018-04-25T23:24:46Z nickername: How are you guys? 2018-04-25T23:25:02Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:27:19Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:27:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:28:04Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:28:09Z cgay: That was 3-4 minutes. I was getting concerned. 2018-04-25T23:28:10Z pierpa: not much change since a minute ago 2018-04-25T23:28:48Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:29:11Z nickername: Cool. 2018-04-25T23:30:43Z zachk quit (Quit: night all :)) 2018-04-25T23:31:59Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:36:21Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:36:34Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:37:37Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:38:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:38:27Z Xach: nickername: what's up? 2018-04-25T23:38:31Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:38:42Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:38:54Z nickername: Not much. I was hoping you could add a project of mine, if that's alright. 2018-04-25T23:39:00Z nickername: Do you want the link? 2018-04-25T23:39:32Z Xach: Please email it 2018-04-25T23:40:02Z nickername: Email isn't too good to me right now. I hate to ask, but can I just put it here? 2018-04-25T23:40:28Z Xach: I prefer github, but email will be ok. IRC is not ok. 2018-04-25T23:40:58Z nickername: Okie dokie. 2018-04-25T23:41:04Z nickername: Can I ask you something else, Xach? 2018-04-25T23:41:24Z Xach: Sure! 2018-04-25T23:41:36Z nickername: Why have you been ignoring my questions, Xach? 2018-04-25T23:41:43Z nickername: I'm verisimilitude. 2018-04-25T23:41:53Z nickername: You seem to have been ignoring me and I don't quite care for that. 2018-04-25T23:41:59Z Xach: Oh, because you harassed me every day while I was thinking about an issue. 2018-04-25T23:42:05Z nickername: Oh, really? 2018-04-25T23:42:19Z nickername: So, you don't want to add my programs, then? 2018-04-25T23:42:20Z singularik joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:42:30Z Xach: I don't want to discuss them on IRC with you. 2018-04-25T23:42:32Z nickername: In that case, get ready for some healthy competition. 2018-04-25T23:42:42Z Xach: I'd be happy to discuss via email. 2018-04-25T23:42:50Z nickername: I can't talk to you on email, because you use gmail. 2018-04-25T23:43:07Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:43:07Z Xach: Ok. 2018-04-25T23:43:08Z nickername: I don't like being forced to use Freenode, but it's the least objectionable option. 2018-04-25T23:43:30Z nickername: Now, you can either add my programs, as I've been asking for months, or I can create a quicklisp competitor. 2018-04-25T23:43:37Z nickername: Which do you want? 2018-04-25T23:43:42Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:44:23Z Xach: If you email me about it, I'll look at them again, but if you don't want to email and don't want to use github, please do whatever you like. 2018-04-25T23:44:56Z nickername: Why even advertise the IRC channel, then? 2018-04-25T23:45:03Z Xach: I think it would be very challenging to work with a community if you don't want to interact with gmail or github, but life would be boring without challenges. 2018-04-25T23:45:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:45:27Z nickername: Well, let's see how long you stay in beta now, then. 2018-04-25T23:45:28Z nickername quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2018-04-25T23:45:43Z Xach: Ok. 2018-04-25T23:45:53Z jasom: ebrasca: you were asking for examples of when defun (setf ...) doesn't work? I just thought of one; if you e.g. wanted to make a (setf (assoc ...) ...) that might add a new item to the front of the list without modifying the tail, you can't do that in a function (if you are okay modifying the tail then it's no problem because you could just add a cons after the head, and swap the CARs) 2018-04-25T23:46:06Z longshi left #lisp 2018-04-25T23:47:54Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:47:59Z Bike: a setf place that takes multiple values is another case. 2018-04-25T23:48:33Z singularik left #lisp 2018-04-25T23:49:07Z Bike: (setf assoc) would still be a problem if you want it to be able to add to a nil alist 2018-04-25T23:49:11Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-25T23:49:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:50:07Z Xach: For those not in #quicklisp, verisimilitude/nickername is someone who wants to remain anonymous while submitting libraries to quicklisp. I told them I had to think about that a while, and every day, sometimes multiple times per day, they asked for status updates. I didn't want that pressure while thinking about it. 2018-04-25T23:50:55Z Xach: I decided I am ok with it, but I don't really appreciate the way it has been requested. 2018-04-25T23:51:05Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:52:17Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-25T23:52:47Z cgay: You are very patient. I don't think I would have handled it as well. 2018-04-25T23:54:32Z jasom: I'm just happy I live in a different world from verisimilitude; he seems to live in a world with a lot more idiots in it than mine. 2018-04-25T23:54:44Z Bike: thank you for explaining that. 2018-04-25T23:57:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-25T23:59:41Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:00:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:01:05Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-26T00:01:26Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:01:30Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:01:32Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:02:47Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:05:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:05:59Z Bronsa` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:06:35Z k-hos: adding code from anonymous people seems like a bad idea to me 2018-04-26T00:06:54Z k-hos: not that having an account somewhere really means anything 2018-04-26T00:08:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:09:37Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:10:05Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:11:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:14:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:18:37Z jasom: is there a library that provides atomic increment/decrement operations across implementations? 2018-04-26T00:18:41Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:20:31Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:21:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:23:51Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:23:58Z sukaeto: quicklisp competitor. 2018-04-26T00:24:08Z sukaeto: (good luck with that) 2018-04-26T00:26:09Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:26:56Z Xach: i think competitors are good! for real. there are different needs and priorities. 2018-04-26T00:27:24Z jasom: In this case a separate distribution makes more sense though. 2018-04-26T00:29:19Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:29:38Z sukaeto: Let's just say that verisimilitude hasn't been making the best impression on me since they've showed up here. I'll try to hold my tongue from here on out. 2018-04-26T00:30:22Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:30:55Z Bike: i am curious if/when quicklisp will be non-beta. of course it works pretty fine as-is, and i vaguely remember the block being documentation 2018-04-26T00:33:00Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:34:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:34:13Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:34:29Z Xach: Right now I'm trying to finish download verification 2018-04-26T00:34:38Z Xach hopes to break not much when that rolls out 2018-04-26T00:35:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:36:15Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:38:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:38:42Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T00:38:46Z johnvonneumann quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:39:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:39:41Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:40:41Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:43:17Z p_l: Xach: I've been thinking recently about possibly packaging QL into separate static executable, kinda like roswell, to provide an environment a bit more familiar to newcomers (and to be able to easily link with TLS libs for verification) 2018-04-26T00:47:29Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:47:52Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T00:48:05Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:48:10Z Xach: p_l: many years ago i thought about using clisp for that 2018-04-26T00:48:26Z p_l: I'd probably go with ECL :| 2018-04-26T00:49:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:50:11Z ghard` joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:50:59Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:52:39Z dented42 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:53:55Z Xach: solidarity 2018-04-26T00:54:21Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T00:54:43Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T00:59:45Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-26T01:00:23Z lnostdal joined #lisp 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seconds) 2018-04-26T02:20:27Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:20:32Z z3t0: I am using QTools with SBCL and am having the application and sbcl crash once a window receives focus 2018-04-26T02:21:46Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:23:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:25:28Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:29:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:30:31Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-26T02:30:32Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:31:46Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:34:15Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:40:37Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:41:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:47:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:48:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:50:22Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:51:21Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:51:48Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T02:52:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T02:53:51Z iqubic: lets say I have an alist. 2018-04-26T02:54:25Z iqubic: like prettify-symbols-alist and I want replace the entry ("<->" . 8596) with ("<->" . 8660). 2018-04-26T02:55:20Z iqubic: Or if "<->" is not associated with anything, then I want to just add ("<->" . 8660) 2018-04-26T02:55:28Z iqubic: How can I do that in lisp? 2018-04-26T02:56:01Z Bike: (setf (alexandria:assoc-value "<->" alist :test #'string=) 8660) is how i'd do it probably 2018-04-26T02:56:22Z iqubic: What the heck is alexandria:assoc-value? 2018-04-26T02:56:40Z Bike: something from the alexandria library 2018-04-26T02:57:02Z iqubic: I see. Why do you have to pull in a library for what I assume would be a simple operation. 2018-04-26T02:57:18Z Bike: you don't, it's just slightly easier than writing it out yourself 2018-04-26T02:58:28Z Bike: (let ((pair (assoc "<->" alist :test #'string=))) (if (null pair) (push (cons "<->" 8660) alist) (setf (cdr pair) 8660))) 2018-04-26T02:58:34Z Bike: would be how to do it yourself 2018-04-26T02:59:23Z iqubic: I see. 2018-04-26T02:59:32Z iqubic: That is slightly more verbose. 2018-04-26T03:00:04Z iqubic: so ("<->" . 8660) is a cons cell? 2018-04-26T03:00:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:00:34Z Bike: yep 2018-04-26T03:00:45Z Bike: (cons a b) gets you (a . b) 2018-04-26T03:01:07Z pierpa: 'a 'b 2018-04-26T03:01:15Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:01:18Z iqubic: Cool. Sounds good. 2018-04-26T03:01:36Z iqubic: And an alist is just a list of cons cells. Sorta like a map. 2018-04-26T03:01:51Z Bike: an alist is an implementation of a map, yea 2018-04-26T03:01:52Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:03:42Z iqubic: Now, what is a plist? 2018-04-26T03:04:08Z Bike: an alist is ((key1 . value1) (key2 . value2)), a plist is (key1 value1 key2 value2) 2018-04-26T03:04:42Z iqubic: I see. Why do people ever use plists? 2018-04-26T03:04:57Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:06:06Z Bike: they have basically the same performance characteristics as alists, and match function call syntax 2018-04-26T03:06:18Z iqubic: Oh I see. 2018-04-26T03:07:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:07:30Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-26T03:09:34Z iqubic: So I can interchange (cons a b) and (a . b) anywhere in my code, right? 2018-04-26T03:09:53Z iqubic: That has no functional difference, right? 2018-04-26T03:10:14Z Bike: no 2018-04-26T03:10:29Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:10:30Z Bike: (cons a b) is a function call that creates a cons 2018-04-26T03:10:38Z Bike: (a . b) is the display syntax for a cons 2018-04-26T03:11:04Z Bike: '(a . b) will evaluate to a cons, but it won't be freshly allocated at runtime, and as pierpa alluded to, a and b won't be evaluated as they would be in (cons a b) 2018-04-26T03:11:23Z iqubic: so I should use (cons a b) then? 2018-04-26T03:11:30Z Bike: probably. 2018-04-26T03:11:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:12:32Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:12:45Z iqubic: Now, this is going to sound stupid, but the THEN and ELSE arguments of the if macro can only ever be one s-exp, right? 2018-04-26T03:13:06Z iqubic: Or is it a list of s-exps? 2018-04-26T03:13:44Z iqubic: No. Emacs tells me that COND is only ever one s-exp, but ELSE can be as many as I want. 2018-04-26T03:13:56Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:13:57Z iqubic: Who came up with that nonsense?!? 2018-04-26T03:14:35Z Bike: ...what? 2018-04-26T03:14:45Z Bike: it's (if condition consequent &optional alternative) 2018-04-26T03:15:02Z pierpa: emacs lisp is different from CL in this regard 2018-04-26T03:15:05Z Bike: and (cond &rest (condition &rest body)) 2018-04-26T03:15:13Z NccT quit 2018-04-26T03:15:59Z mathZ left #lisp 2018-04-26T03:17:30Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-26T03:20:17Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:21:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:23:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:27:30Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T03:27:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:30:29Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:31:44Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:33:16Z loke: iqubic: Emacs is different from Common Lisp in that respect. 2018-04-26T03:33:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:34:33Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:35:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:37:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:39:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:40:21Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-26T03:40:56Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:41:37Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:42:23Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-26T03:44:46Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T03:44:50Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:46:37Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:47:12Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:47:52Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-26T03:50:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T03:51:30Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:52:34Z Oladon joined #lisp 2018-04-26T03:54:49Z loke: hello beach! 2018-04-26T03:55:14Z loke: beach: I created a bug report about the output recrod problem, as well as a simplified test case. I even created screenshots: 2018-04-26T03:55:15Z loke: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/issues/476 2018-04-26T03:55:28Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T03:55:52Z beach: Great! I'll look at it today. 2018-04-26T03:56:12Z loke: beach: Thanks. I'd appreciate even the slightest hint as to where the problem could originate. 2018-04-26T03:56:27Z beach: Sure. This is an important issue. 2018-04-26T03:57:26Z beach: Oh, so it has nothing to do with text? 2018-04-26T03:58:09Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:00:22Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:01:02Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:01:42Z beach: OK, I can reproduce the problem. That's a start. 2018-04-26T04:02:03Z loke: beach: not this one, no. There are actually two separate issues relating to output records. I stumbles on both of them at the same time, but I discovered they are separate. 2018-04-26T04:02:17Z beach: Oh, yes, might as well fix this one first. 2018-04-26T04:02:34Z loke: The onw I posted just now is actually independent of the text. I'm still researching a good proposal for the other one. 2018-04-26T04:02:45Z 07IACTE48 is now known as slyrus1 2018-04-26T04:03:08Z beach: loke: I'll start working on this one. 2018-04-26T04:03:38Z loke: The text issue has to do with the fact that DRAW-TEXT is underspecified in that the output record can't draw transformed text. I have some ideas how to fix that one. 2018-04-26T04:04:23Z loke: But issue #476 is just baffling to me. :-) 2018-04-26T04:06:00Z beach: The first thing I will do is to stick a call to Clouseau in there and examine the output-record hierarchy. 2018-04-26T04:06:19Z beach: That is usually one of the first things I do. 2018-04-26T04:06:46Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:07:50Z loke: What is cluseau? 2018-04-26T04:08:19Z loke: The really weird part that I don't understand is why the second box gets revealed as I resize the window. 2018-04-26T04:09:26Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:10:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:11:32Z cpape quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:13:19Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:16:58Z beach: Clouseau is the inspector. 2018-04-26T04:17:02Z beach: [of course] 2018-04-26T04:19:09Z loke: Well of course. :-) 2018-04-26T04:19:13Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:19:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:20:34Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:23:49Z kark joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:24:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:25:19Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T04:26:26Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:26:28Z slyrus1 quit (Quit: slyrus1) 2018-04-26T04:29:41Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:30:18Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:31:17Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-04-26T04:31:35Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:33:27Z nckx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-26T04:33:42Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:38:49Z beach: Crap. Someone seems to have modified the inspector so that it now writes to standard-output, and it modifies the output history. 2018-04-26T04:38:54Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:40:05Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:43:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:48:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:48:47Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:49:41Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:49:55Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-26T04:51:15Z beach: loke: My tools are failing me, so this is going to take more than a few hours. I'll work on it during the day. 2018-04-26T04:51:26Z loke: beach: Thanks! 2018-04-26T04:53:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:54:27Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T04:55:50Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T04:58:02Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T04:59:21Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:00:16Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:01:01Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-26T05:02:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:05:15Z cpape joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:05:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:07:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:08:45Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:09:01Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:10:15Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:12:00Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:12:39Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:13:06Z kozy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:13:29Z moei joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:15:37Z kozy joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:17:07Z z3t0: this is odd, for some reason qTools works just fine using ccl on macos whereas sbcl fails horribly 2018-04-26T05:17:23Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:17:49Z doanyway quit 2018-04-26T05:18:43Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:19:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:23:39Z mfiano: It's a known bug, and stassats recommends opting in to the mac beta (he said he won't fix it) 2018-04-26T05:27:03Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:28:21Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:29:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:34:17Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:34:22Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:36:27Z slyrus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:36:44Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T05:37:54Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T05:43:09Z manualcrank quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-26T05:43:24Z 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https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/8de7ol/notice_for_lisp_game_jammers_sbcl_macos_bug/ 2018-04-26T06:05:18Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T06:05:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:06:33Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:07:54Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:08:04Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:08:23Z iqubic`: :bd 2018-04-26T06:08:26Z iqubic` left #lisp 2018-04-26T06:10:01Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T06:10:03Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:12:20Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:12:46Z xieyuheng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T06:12:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:14:45Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T06:16:03Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T06:17:35Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T06:18:13Z kozy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T06:18:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T06:23:10Z abel-abel joined #lisp 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timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:28:14Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:35:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:38:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:38:54Z fraya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:39:39Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:45:44Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:47:45Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:48:45Z LdBeth joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:49:12Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:50:15Z meh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:53:12Z xificurC joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:53:18Z xantoz joined #lisp 2018-04-26T08:54:50Z xificurC: in sbcl, the implications/limitations of `eval` are the same as of `compile` right? The manual states that `eval` is mostly just (funcall (compile nil (lambda () ...))) 2018-04-26T08:56:38Z xificurC: is there a good, down-to-earth explanation of lexical and dynamic environments? I understand the concepts from other languages but am failing to extrapolate the knowledge here. E.g. to understand why `eval` cannot see the lexical scope and how is the lexical and dynamic scope actually implemented 2018-04-26T08:58:53Z xificurC: next: the sbcl manual states that fasls are binary compatible only with the version they were compiled with. Can I write a load-compile function that will always load a fasl compiled version of the given file by recompiling the source code file when necessary? 2018-04-26T08:59:26Z xificurC: I'll hope for someone smart to chime in :) Oh and the topic needs updating sbcl version :) 2018-04-26T08:59:37Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T08:59:58Z phoe: xificurC: if you use ASDF to load your systems, it will automatically recompile the files when necessary. 2018-04-26T09:00:21Z damke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T09:00:39Z xificurC: phoe: we are using sbcl as a scripting environment right now, loading asdf for each invocation is too costly 2018-04-26T09:00:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:00:53Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:01:01Z phoe: xificurC: you can make an SBCL image with ASDF pre-loaded. 2018-04-26T09:02:17Z xificurC: phoe: I can make an image with all the libraries pre-loaded, can't I. I'm saying we are using a clean image as the distribution provides and loading things as needed 2018-04-26T09:02:20Z hajovonta: phoe: thanks for the contribution, I'll test it asap 2018-04-26T09:02:34Z phoe: hajovonta: woop, which contribution 2018-04-26T09:02:41Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:02:41Z hajovonta: cl-expect 2018-04-26T09:03:12Z xificurC: the moment we start creating our own image is the moment we have moved from distributing scripts to distributing compiled units 2018-04-26T09:03:12Z phoe: xificurC: I see. 2018-04-26T09:03:29Z Inst joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:03:49Z xificurC: I for one don't see a problem with that but my manager disagrees, so :) 2018-04-26T09:03:54Z phoe: xificurC: in layman's terms, dynamic environment consists of everything on the stack; lexical environment consits of everything inside a given pair of parentheses. 2018-04-26T09:04:45Z phoe: this is why when function A invokes function B, the lexical environment of A does not move over to B, because B is defined in a different pair of parens, but the dynamic environment from A moves over to B, because A and B are both on the stack now. 2018-04-26T09:04:45Z xificurC: phoe: I would expect lexicals to be on the stack too :o 2018-04-26T09:05:08Z phoe: xificurC: lexical environment no longer exists after compilation. 2018-04-26T09:05:09Z xificurC: never mind, stupid remark 2018-04-26T09:05:23Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T09:05:34Z blep-on-external joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:05:44Z phoe: an implementation can keep some symbol references for debugging purposes, but other than that, the lexenv disappears after compiling code. 2018-04-26T09:06:26Z xificurC: phoe: this leaves the implementation the option of e.g. keeping the lexical env in registers? 2018-04-26T09:07:19Z aeth: Lexical variables can be optimized, and they're known. Usually even the type is known. SBCL is only really "fooled" by numbers and sequences. 2018-04-26T09:07:38Z phoe: xificurC: sure, but why? It is no longer required. 2018-04-26T09:07:58Z phoe: An implementation *can* keep it for debugging, etc., but other than that, it's a by-product. 2018-04-26T09:08:22Z aeth: It's implementation-specific, but they're probably kept at (debug 3) and not at (debug 1) (speed 3) 2018-04-26T09:08:30Z aeth: That's at least a reasonable decision for implementors 2018-04-26T09:09:21Z xificurC: phoe: ok i see what you mean I think, you're saying the compiler can optimize the usage so that the resulting assembly will have no trace of it 2018-04-26T09:09:43Z phoe: xificurC: yes, exactly. 2018-04-26T09:09:44Z anunnaki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T09:09:50Z aeth: xificurC: Consider the case of a constant value. 2018-04-26T09:09:52Z xificurC: poor eval 2018-04-26T09:09:59Z phoe: "poor"? not really 2018-04-26T09:10:01Z aeth: (let ((x 42)) ...) 2018-04-26T09:10:06Z phoe: EVAL behaves just as defined in the standard 2018-04-26T09:10:13Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:10:23Z xificurC: I mean "poor eval, now he can't see the lexical" 2018-04-26T09:10:45Z xificurC: left behind to allow optimizing 2018-04-26T09:11:12Z xificurC: thanks, that cleared things up 2018-04-26T09:11:44Z xificurC: now for load-compile :) 2018-04-26T09:12:35Z spectrumgomas[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:35Z Guest40929 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:35Z kammd[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:35Z eatonphil joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:35Z dirb joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z theemacsshibe[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z Jach[m]1 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z katco[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z blisp[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z mhitchman[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z CharlieBrown joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z jach[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z equalunique[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z hdurer[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:36Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:37Z cryptomarauder joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:37Z kumori[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:37Z hiq[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:37Z plll[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:42Z GNUPONUT[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:42Z lyosha[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:43Z drunk_foxx[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:43Z harlequin78[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:45Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:12:57Z blep-on-external: how can i get a rust writer to pick up lisp? 2018-04-26T09:12:58Z blep-on-external: i can't find many selling points nowadays 2018-04-26T09:13:49Z beach: You probably can't. 2018-04-26T09:15:03Z xificurC: rust is *huge* and compiled only, with no normal REPL (last time I checked). CL is not just compiled, fully interactive, garbage collected... Hard to compare the 2 isn't it? 2018-04-26T09:15:54Z capisce: huge compared to CL? 2018-04-26T09:16:10Z blep-on-external: that's true 2018-04-26T09:16:38Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:17:01Z blep-on-external: i'm not selling it to a compsci student or a mathematician: this is a person neckhigh in modern bollocks 2018-04-26T09:17:02Z blep-on-external: they 2018-04-26T09:17:03Z blep-on-external: *they're afraid of the GC, want thread safety, blahblah 2018-04-26T09:17:27Z xificurC: capisce: CL is huge in a different way. If you learn parentheses and a couple more things you know the language and can start reading about what's in the standard. 2018-04-26T09:17:51Z aeth: blep-on-external: Show them something that normally is written in C++, but is written in CL instead. (Which of course implies that the GC doesn't matter that much in the end.) 2018-04-26T09:17:54Z xificurC: tell me how long will it take for a newcomer to learn all of rust's syntax and semantics 2018-04-26T09:17:58Z blep-on-external: right 2018-04-26T09:18:43Z blep-on-external: i dunno, but i didn't get the macro syntax (and still don't) 2018-04-26T09:18:45Z blep-on-external: cl macros are just more cl 2018-04-26T09:19:48Z xificurC: I'll circle back to my question about load-compile - I can imagine the logic being: if no fasl or incorrect version or older than .lisp recompile, then use fasl. How can I check for the incorrect version? 2018-04-26T09:20:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T09:20:48Z jackdaniel: there is no portable way 2018-04-26T09:20:58Z jackdaniel: cdr has been defined for that afair 2018-04-26T09:21:24Z jackdaniel: some implementations will warn you and reject such fasl with error when you try to load it 2018-04-26T09:21:46Z jackdaniel: others will simply load it (ecl khm), even if version doesn't match 2018-04-26T09:21:52Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:21:58Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:22:03Z jackdaniel: on my todo list™ 2018-04-26T09:22:21Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:22:44Z xificurC: jackdaniel: I'm talking strictly sbcl here 2018-04-26T09:23:36Z xificurC: blep-on-external: I think rust macros were at least partially based on racket's syntax-parse 2018-04-26T09:23:42Z Inst left #lisp 2018-04-26T09:23:51Z jackdaniel: where? I fail to find it, you say CL everywhere (except the last one) 2018-04-26T09:24:12Z jackdaniel: I encourage you to type (apropos "FASL") in your implementation of choice 2018-04-26T09:25:18Z xificurC: jackdaniel: the first time I asked, which was when I joined. Not sure if you were around at that point 2018-04-26T09:25:42Z jackdaniel: also spending 30s on looking in sbcl's manual yields the answer 2018-04-26T09:25:54Z jackdaniel: http://sbcl.org/manual/#FASL-Format 2018-04-26T09:26:01Z blep-on-external: looks pretty pattern-matchy, which is what i saw looking at them first 2018-04-26T09:26:45Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T09:27:31Z xificurC: jackdaniel: I found that in the manual in 30s too, but it's a mixture of sbcl's internals and various asdf operations. I couldn't find docs for invalid-fasl 2018-04-26T09:28:19Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T09:28:29Z phoe: xificurC: you could try a very silly way 2018-04-26T09:28:39Z jackdaniel: sb-ext:invalid-fasl is signalled, when you try to load invalid fasl 2018-04-26T09:28:43Z phoe: (handler-case (load-fasl) (error () (load-source))) 2018-04-26T09:28:45Z phoe: oh 2018-04-26T09:28:53Z phoe: (handler-case (load-fasl) (sb-ext:invalid-fasl () (load-source))) 2018-04-26T09:29:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:29:47Z xificurC: jackdaniel: thanks, that's all I needed to go on :) 2018-04-26T09:31:45Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T09:34:13Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:34:34Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T09:34:56Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:35:07Z AntiSpamMeta_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T09:35:07Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Killed (leguin.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2018-04-26T09:35:07Z 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how does let-over-lambda work? 2018-04-26T10:50:06Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-26T10:54:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Xach: Thank you for mirroring so much of the lisp usenet posts. Google groups has been very annoying lately. 2018-04-26T10:56:09Z anunnaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T10:56:58Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T10:58:42Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T10:59:36Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:00:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:00:33Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:01:34Z pdv joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:04:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:05:09Z idurand joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:06:02Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:06:39Z phoe: xificurC: it creates closures 2018-04-26T11:06:54Z phoe: (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x))) 2018-04-26T11:07:02Z phoe: (funcall *) ;=> 1 2018-04-26T11:07:06Z phoe: (funcall **) ;=> 2 2018-04-26T11:07:10Z phoe: (funcall ***) ;=> 3 2018-04-26T11:07:16Z phoe: and so on 2018-04-26T11:08:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: xificurC: Are you asking about how it's implemented? 2018-04-26T11:09:14Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: he's been having questions about how lexenvs and dynenvs work 2018-04-26T11:09:46Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:11:02Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:13:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: "lexical environment no longer exists after compilation." probably worth saying that lexical environment means the same as static environment 2018-04-26T11:13:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: or at least that lexical/static are user interchangably, (static is the opposite of dynamic) 2018-04-26T11:14:04Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:14:05Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:14:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:14:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: user/usually/s 2018-04-26T11:14:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Wow, I can't type at all. 2018-04-26T11:15:10Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:15:12Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:17:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:20:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-26T11:22:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:23:57Z White__Flame: more practically, the mappings from symbolic names to lexical variable locations no longer exists after compilation 2018-04-26T11:24:08Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:24:20Z White__Flame: at least, in ways you can use. The internal debuggers probably remember 2018-04-26T11:25:23Z DemolitionMan: hi 2018-04-26T11:26:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:26:30Z phoe: Hey 2018-04-26T11:26:37Z DemolitionMan: please is there a way to allow/prevent the reader to read code depending on *features* contents? I need to read source code depending on :x86 or :x86_64 keyword. Thanks 2018-04-26T11:26:38Z White__Flame: re 2018-04-26T11:27:09Z phoe: DemolitionMan: *read* code? 2018-04-26T11:27:18Z phoe: you can use #+x86 2018-04-26T11:27:35Z phoe: if the reader conditional does not exist, the reader will read over the next form and treat it as non-existent 2018-04-26T11:28:42Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T11:29:31Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:32:45Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:33:13Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:35:53Z xificurC: Petit_Dejeuner: so when e.g. a defun is being compiled (let's talk sbcl) it checks it's lexical env scope and compiles everything necessary in? Where does such a lexical env exist after compiled? stack? heap? register? 2018-04-26T11:36:34Z jackdaniel: xificurC: term you are looking for is closure 2018-04-26T11:36:51Z jackdaniel: check it out on the web. common lisp (as a programming language) has closures 2018-04-26T11:36:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: xificurC: I'd imagine heap, but it's probably implementation dependent. 2018-04-26T11:37:09Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:37:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: I wouldn't know. I don't hack SBCL. 2018-04-26T11:39:49Z arrsim joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:40:03Z xificurC: jack_rabbit: I know the term, thanks, doesn't answer the question 2018-04-26T11:40:57Z xificurC: fix jackdaniel: ^ 2018-04-26T11:41:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:42:38Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:46:54Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T11:49:55Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:50:53Z phoe: xificurC: these variables live on the heap afterwards. 2018-04-26T11:51:00Z phoe: they are normally garbage-collected. 2018-04-26T11:51:22Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:51:44Z schweers` joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:52:21Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:52:27Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:53:21Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T11:53:52Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:57:56Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-26T11:58:11Z fraya left #lisp 2018-04-26T11:58:23Z xificurC: phoe: thanks 2018-04-26T12:00:13Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:01:02Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:02:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:03:06Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:07:38Z drmeister: Does anyone know how to write debugging output from slime that doesn't interfere with its regular communication? 2018-04-26T12:08:34Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:10:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:11:51Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:13:14Z jackdaniel: xificurC: if you know the term, then you should read about closure allocation strategies. 2018-04-26T12:14:26Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-26T12:15:57Z schweers` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:17:05Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:18:36Z jackdaniel: I'm aware that I may sound not nice, but I suggest it because looking up things indivudually is a useful skill 2018-04-26T12:18:52Z jackdaniel: not because I want to be the bad guy, don't get me wrong 2018-04-26T12:19:08Z xificurC: jackdaniel: is it really such a sin to ask for a tldr in an IRC channel? If I wanted to attain deep knowledge of the topic and couldn't find good resources I would ask for resources. If I'm looking for a short answer for a short question "go google [xyz]" is really not that helpful 2018-04-26T12:19:33Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:20:07Z xificurC: jackdaniel: it's hard to read someone's mood or character from text but it started to seem to me you like what you're doing to me :) 2018-04-26T12:20:37Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:20:48Z jackdaniel: I think that asking for a tldr is a big distractor and a noise, yes 2018-04-26T12:21:13Z jackdaniel: please read: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 2018-04-26T12:22:01Z xificurC: jackdaniel: re looking up things - my usual process is: 1) look it up; 2) if couldn't find look it up another way; 3) if couldn't find look it up another way; 4) ask for help. For a thought on that I'm coding something for a week and this is the first time I came for advice 2018-04-26T12:24:03Z phoe: _death: I am applying the changes to PROTEST that you suggested 2018-04-26T12:24:03Z jackdaniel: yet your question create an impression, that you didn't bother to look things up. either way, I've already stated my opinion on the matter 2018-04-26T12:24:24Z milanj quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-26T12:26:11Z xificurC: jackdaniel: I agree that my language or usage of terms might give that impression. Thanks for the link, I'll give it a look 2018-04-26T12:27:38Z schweers` joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:28:34Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:29:47Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:32:20Z schweers` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:32:53Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:34:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:36:21Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:38:09Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:38:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:38:49Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:38:55Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:38:57Z oldtopman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T12:39:20Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:39:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:40:52Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:41:44Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:44:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:45:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:46:19Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:47:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:47:30Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:47:43Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:48:00Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:51:23Z m00natic joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:52:05Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:52:33Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:52:44Z phoe: in SLIME, ow can I make a symbol highlight the same way as the symbol ERROR? 2018-04-26T12:53:53Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:55:29Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T12:56:44Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:57:53Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T12:58:18Z xificurC: jackdaniel: interesting read, thanks 2018-04-26T13:00:00Z ebrasca: Xach: Why you think it is good to have competition to quicklisp? (ql is good) 2018-04-26T13:00:21Z phoe: competition is always good because it creates growth and ideas. 2018-04-26T13:00:45Z ebrasca: And fragmentation 2018-04-26T13:02:17Z dlowe: Given the current size of the userbase, I think I'd rather have more people contributing to the quicklisp infrastructure than more infrastructures. 2018-04-26T13:02:25Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:05:10Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:05:54Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:06:52Z DemolitionMan: phoe: thanks 2018-04-26T13:08:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:09:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:10:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:11:38Z slyrus1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:12:48Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:13:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:13:20Z dvssa joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:14:31Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T13:15:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:15:09Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:15:24Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:16:09Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:20:48Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:21:48Z xieyuheng joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:22:37Z xieyuheng left #lisp 2018-04-26T13:22:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:24:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:25:47Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:26:20Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:30:22Z dvssa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-26T13:31:15Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T13:31:46Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:32:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:34:33Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:35:23Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:37:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:37:51Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:38:18Z abel-abel quit (Quit: abel-abel) 2018-04-26T13:41:22Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:43:18Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-26T13:44:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:45:32Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:46:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: tbh, I'd rather just have a more modular quicklisp 2018-04-26T13:46:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: different package lists 2018-04-26T13:47:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: also, irrc, quicklisp is rather insecure 2018-04-26T13:47:22Z Petit_Dejeuner should probably be hacking something together 2018-04-26T13:47:41Z klm2is joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:48:19Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:50:28Z dlowe: Sure. Being able to subscribe to, depend on, and maintain multiple repos would be key here 2018-04-26T13:50:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:51:25Z dlowe: that's infrastructure work 2018-04-26T13:52:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T13:53:32Z oleo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:54:16Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:57:14Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-26T13:59:12Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:00:42Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:01:35Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T14:01:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:02:18Z TCZ is now known as foo_-_ 2018-04-26T14:02:30Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:02:38Z surya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T14:02:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:03:00Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:03:08Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:04:59Z foo_-_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T14:05:58Z Hello_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:06:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Were M-, and M-. never bound by default? 2018-04-26T14:07:15Z dlowe: I think it's a common binding for many modes 2018-04-26T14:07:26Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:07:33Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:07:56Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-26T14:07:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Er, what I mean is I used to be able to use them in slime without any configuration, but now they aren't bound. 2018-04-26T14:08:05Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:08:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can still jump with the corresponding M-x command. 2018-04-26T14:09:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:10:02Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-26T14:10:52Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:11:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:13:13Z pyc: Is buildapp necessary? Isn't sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die enough to build a distributable executable binary? 2018-04-26T14:13:14Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:13:18Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T14:13:22Z hajovonta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:14:13Z jackdaniel: pyc: buildapp is meant to be portable and make things easier. it works on sbcl and ccl 2018-04-26T14:15:02Z jackdaniel: I'm presonally using net.didierverna.clon which works on more implementations, provides good abstraction for command line options and on top of that is well documented 2018-04-26T14:18:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:19:02Z jackdaniel: note that asdf also provides make for building binaries 2018-04-26T14:20:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:21:56Z Bronsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T14:21:56Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:22:30Z palmtree joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:23:39Z Bronsa joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:25:41Z Xach: pfdietz: I am putting together a docker image that contains all the necessary foreign libraries for building everything shipped in quicklisp. 2018-04-26T14:29:57Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:30:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:31:52Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T14:32:28Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:32:34Z hajovonta: Xach you are a hero 2018-04-26T14:32:34Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:33:23Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:34:29Z Xach: this will be mostly useful for testing, i think? 2018-04-26T14:34:45Z jackdaniel: having superpowers certainly helps ^_^ 2018-04-26T14:35:27Z Xach: pyc: i made buildapp because i wrote the same type of lisp file to load stuff and call save-lisp-and-die all the time 2018-04-26T14:35:36Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:35:50Z Xach: it is a program that automates writing that kind of lisp file and loading it. i also could not figure out how cl-launch worked. 2018-04-26T14:36:03Z Xach: now there is cl-launch, net.didierverna.clon, asdf built-ins, and probably more besides. 2018-04-26T14:36:21Z Xach: so many options 2018-04-26T14:37:15Z hajovonta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:39:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:40:01Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:41:09Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:42:03Z pfdietz2 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:42:29Z pfdietz2: Xach: nice! 2018-04-26T14:43:01Z pfdietz2: (re docket image) 2018-04-26T14:43:16Z pfdietz2: docker 2018-04-26T14:43:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:44:01Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:46:14Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:47:47Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T14:47:51Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:47:59Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T14:49:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T14:50:48Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC 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2018-04-26T17:53:33Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T17:56:58Z phoe: beach: this bug may affect any operating system, including a possible LispOS. 2018-04-26T17:57:17Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T17:57:42Z jasom: beach: I'm not sure why that mattters; it's a data-exfiltration bug, not something that affects the correctness of programs 2018-04-26T17:57:57Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T17:58:45Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-26T17:59:16Z Bike: the idea is something like, a write is speculatively executed in a way that ignores the write barrier,which fucks up whatever that fucks up? 2018-04-26T17:59:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:01:34Z phoe: the idea is: you guess a number, and try to check if some value at a memory address X is equal to that number. You are forbidden from reading that value by the system security. 2018-04-26T18:03:01Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:03:07Z phoe: But the CPU optimizes things in order to be fast. It pre-executes the instruction and keeps parts of it in its cache, so it can return the result as soon as it checks that you are allowed to read from that address. 2018-04-26T18:03:28Z yoel: roswell question: How may I make my .clisprc.lisp loaded by default? 2018-04-26T18:03:43Z Bike: i meant the idea of it affecting gc. 2018-04-26T18:03:49Z phoe: yoel: ~/.roswell/init.lisp 2018-04-26T18:04:06Z phoe: oh. How could it affect GC though? 2018-04-26T18:04:46Z phoe: You need to execute lots of instructions to be able to exploit that bug, and then you can only read memory that you have pointers to. 2018-04-26T18:05:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:05:58Z rme: the spectre/meltdown bugs wouldn't affect gc write barriers implemented via the vm system 2018-04-26T18:06:13Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:06:30Z beach: Ah, OK. 2018-04-26T18:06:39Z beach: But why not? 2018-04-26T18:06:40Z yoel: phoe: thanks 2018-04-26T18:06:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:06:58Z phoe: yoel: this file is read by all implementations. you might want to #+clisp some code. 2018-04-26T18:07:56Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:08:42Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:09:49Z yoel: Yes - that what I did. However, now quicklisp doesn't find any system (I used it to load a newer version of ASDF) 2018-04-26T18:09:51Z rme: memory reads made by speculatively executed instructions affect micro-architectural state (namely the L1 cache), enabling a side-channel leak. the defined architectural behaviour of the processor remains correct. 2018-04-26T18:10:15Z rme: In other words, unsuccessful speculatively-executed instructions leave evidence behind (in L1 cache) that they should not. 2018-04-26T18:10:16Z Xach: yoel: where is your system located? 2018-04-26T18:10:48Z phoe: yoel: doesn't your quicklisp come from roswell? 2018-04-26T18:11:00Z yoel: I tried both for systems in the repository and in local-projects 2018-04-26T18:11:09Z phoe: ros should automatically pull and install quicklisp and your systems should be located in ~/.roswell/local-projects 2018-04-26T18:12:09Z yoel: it seems that now ONLY the .clisprc is loaded. The content of my init.lisp is: #+clisp(load (compile-file #P"~/.clisprc.lisp")) 2018-04-26T18:12:46Z yoel: verified with -- --verbose. 2018-04-26T18:12:49Z phoe: yoel: how do you run your clisp now? `ros run`? 2018-04-26T18:12:56Z yoel: ros run -L clisp 2018-04-26T18:13:08Z phoe: are your systems in ~/.roswell/local-projects ? 2018-04-26T18:13:13Z yoel: yes 2018-04-26T18:13:14Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:13:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:13:22Z yoel: bot setup.lisp isn't being loaded 2018-04-26T18:13:26Z yoel: *but 2018-04-26T18:13:30Z phoe: weird. 2018-04-26T18:13:40Z phoe: you could try purging and reinstalling roswell from scratch. 2018-04-26T18:13:50Z beach: rme: I think I got it. Thanks. 2018-04-26T18:13:54Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:14:02Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:14:11Z rme: it's hard to explain well in a few lines of irc 2018-04-26T18:14:28Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:15:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:19:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:20:43Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-26T18:21:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:22:07Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:22:50Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-26T18:22:58Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:22:58Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:23:34Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T18:23:52Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:25:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:26:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:26:18Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:27:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:29:03Z yoel: phoe: my mistake - setup.lisp IS being loaded but it can't find components (such as: *** - Component "alexandria" not found ) 2018-04-26T18:29:57Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:30:23Z light2yellow: I don't understand the picture from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression . why is it branching to the left at the third empty node? why does it have nil as the right child? 2018-04-26T18:30:34Z yoel: it probabley has nothing to do with init.lisp per se but for loading ASDF 3.3.1.7 at the end of the process (as clisp built-in version is 2.26) 2018-04-26T18:30:43Z Xach: clisp has no built-in version 2018-04-26T18:30:43Z phoe: light2yellow: NIL is the empry list in Common Lisp. 2018-04-26T18:30:51Z Xach: 2.26 is what comes with quicklisp as a "last resort" 2018-04-26T18:30:51Z light2yellow: phoe: yes 2018-04-26T18:30:55Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:31:07Z Xach: you may have better luck if you load asdf 3. as early as possible 2018-04-26T18:31:11Z phoe: the list (1 2 3) is actually (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))) in cons notation 2018-04-26T18:31:14Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:31:16Z light2yellow: phoe: yes 2018-04-26T18:31:29Z phoe: and (3 . NIL) points to 3 from its left side and to NIL from its right side. 2018-04-26T18:31:54Z phoe: as to why it branches to the left, it is because this expression is (* 2 (+ 3 4)) 2018-04-26T18:31:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:32:02Z light2yellow: phoe: yes. how does the list evaluation rules affect the representation? 2018-04-26T18:32:07Z light2yellow: do* 2018-04-26T18:32:08Z phoe: branching to the left means that you have another nested list. 2018-04-26T18:32:26Z jasom: light2yellow: (cons '* (cons 2 (cons (cons '+ (cons 3 (cons 4nil ) nil)) 2018-04-26T18:32:27Z yoel: Xach: any idea how to it cleanly with roswell (i.e. without editing setup.lisp)? 2018-04-26T18:32:40Z Xach: yoel: Sorry, no idea. I don't use roswell or clisp. 2018-04-26T18:32:43Z jasom: light2yellow: the left branch is the first operator to cons, the right is the second 2018-04-26T18:32:49Z phoe: yoel: roswell always pulls newest ASDF whenever it can. 2018-04-26T18:32:53Z phoe: yoel: why do you use CLISP? 2018-04-26T18:33:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:33:42Z jasom: light2yellow: slight correction: (cons '* (cons 2 (cons (cons '+ (cons 3 (cons 4 nil))) nil))) 2018-04-26T18:34:30Z yoel: Curiosity :-) 2018-04-26T18:34:49Z yoel: Anyway I added the +#clisp to setup.lisp and it works. 2018-04-26T18:37:11Z yoel: I usually use SBCL on Linux and CCL on a Mac. I tried CLISP and it didn't work so I decided to learn from the problem. Thank you both! 2018-04-26T18:37:14Z light2yellow: okay, now that I see how to construct a (* 1 2) through cons (there couldn't be any other way anyway, sigh), I guess I am able to figure this out, thank you jasom 2018-04-26T18:37:49Z jasom: light2yellow: of course most of the time you'd just do (list '* 1 2) but what's happening under the hood is the cons 2018-04-26T18:37:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:38:40Z light2yellow: yes, I know, spent quite some time trying to understand the recursiveness of all the definitions. in the end it's very simple 2018-04-26T18:38:59Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:39:09Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-26T18:39:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:39:39Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:39:59Z fouric joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:40:01Z light2yellow: the eye-opener this time was that I can use an operator quote (which is just a function, which is just a symbol, which is an atom) in the cons 2018-04-26T18:40:25Z phoe: light2yellow: actually QUOTE is not a function but a special operator 2018-04-26T18:40:33Z phoe: it could not work as a function because of Lisp evaluation rules. 2018-04-26T18:40:55Z phoe: because, if it was a function, it would have its argument evaluated, which is exactly what we want to prevent. 2018-04-26T18:41:08Z jasom: you could always use (cons (intern "*" "COMMON-LISP") ...) instead 2018-04-26T18:41:13Z jasom: and do it without quote, but that's a bit silly 2018-04-26T18:41:22Z light2yellow: no, I mean an arithmetic operator, phoe. by "operator quote" I meant (quote op), where op is some operator 2018-04-26T18:41:38Z phoe: oh, okay 2018-04-26T18:41:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:41:50Z jasom: light2yellow: ah in this case op more properly is a symbol that names an operator 2018-04-26T18:42:03Z light2yellow: aha 2018-04-26T18:42:05Z jasom: '+ is a symbol. That symbol names a function 2018-04-26T18:42:41Z fouric quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-26T18:42:57Z light2yellow: jasom: that intern usage, is that to prevent name clashing or smth? if smb redefines * for me? 2018-04-26T18:43:07Z fouric joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:43:24Z light2yellow: I mean, I suppose I know what intern does - it returns an object given a string 2018-04-26T18:43:46Z jasom: light2yellow: that intern is what the reader does for you when it encounters a symbol. (read-from-string "*") will intern "*" in the current package 2018-04-26T18:43:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:44:16Z light2yellow: I see 2018-04-26T18:44:17Z jasom: assuming the current package has used the common-lisp package, then it will yield common-lisp:* 2018-04-26T18:44:57Z jasom: it's different from '* because the symbol gets interned at run time, not read-time 2018-04-26T18:45:30Z jasom: but the function returns the symbol, so it was a silly trick to get a symbol without having to use QUOTE 2018-04-26T18:45:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:46:22Z fouric quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-26T18:46:32Z fouric joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:46:34Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:46:45Z light2yellow: oh, it makes sense now 2018-04-26T18:47:07Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T18:47:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:48:01Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:49:23Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:51:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:52:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:52:31Z smasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T18:52:49Z smasta joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:55:33Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:56:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:56:37Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:56:38Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-04-26T18:56:38Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:56:48Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:57:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T18:58:07Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T18:59:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:00:02Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:01:01Z jasom: lisp does some really fancy things with some really simple primitives, so the first 3 years or so I used it I overthought *everything* 2018-04-26T19:01:03Z milanj joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:02:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:03:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:04:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:05:02Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:05:08Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:08:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:10:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:12:01Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:12:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:12:17Z palmtree joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:13:16Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:14:53Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:15:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:16:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:16:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:20:59Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:21:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:21:59Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:22:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:22:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:23:32Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:24:18Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T19:24:33Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:24:49Z palmtree quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:25:51Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T19:27:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:27:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:28:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:29:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:29:59Z light2yellow: is sequential evaluating guaranteed by ANSI CL? I suppose it isn't? otherwise progn wouldn't exist? 2018-04-26T19:30:00Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:30:05Z light2yellow: evaluation* 2018-04-26T19:30:18Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:31:05Z Xach: light2yellow: it is specified as left-to-right. 2018-04-26T19:31:37Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T19:31:46Z light2yellow: Xach: so, it is 2018-04-26T19:31:59Z light2yellow: why do we need progn? 2018-04-26T19:32:24Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.1.2.1.2.3 2018-04-26T19:32:25Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:32:32Z Xach: light2yellow: to put more than one form in IF branches. 2018-04-26T19:32:40Z Xach: and other places that allow for only one form. 2018-04-26T19:32:43Z Cymew_ joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:32:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:33:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:36:16Z jasom: also to have macros return more than one toplevel form 2018-04-26T19:36:59Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:37:01Z Cymew_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:37:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:37:35Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:38:29Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:38:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:43:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:43:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:44:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:45:21Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:46:33Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:47:22Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-26T19:47:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:49:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:50:13Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:51:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:52:07Z warweasle quit (Quit: goodbye) 2018-04-26T19:52:27Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:53:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:53:37Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:53:52Z zmt01 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-26T19:54:28Z zmt00 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:54:40Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:55:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:57:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:57:22Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T19:57:22Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T19:58:33Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T19:58:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:01:59Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:02:10Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:02:40Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:03:09Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:03:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:03:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:05:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:05:08Z light2yellow: a question about slime. with this snippet https://pastebin.com/LgrXKbZa , if I slime-eval-buffer, I get the correct NIL in the end, but if I select everything and slime-eval-region, it returns T. what's going on? 2018-04-26T20:05:09Z aeth: light2yellow: Quite a few forms have an "implicit progn" http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_i.htm#implicit_progn 2018-04-26T20:06:14Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:07:03Z aeth: progn's only useful on the ones that don't 2018-04-26T20:08:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:09:05Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:09:59Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:10:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:10:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:11:08Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:11:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:12:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:12:57Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:13:04Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-26T20:13:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:13:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:13:42Z phoe: light2yellow: are you sure that your *a* is not modified across your checks? 2018-04-26T20:13:53Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:14:03Z phoe: try defvaring and setting *b* instead of a 2018-04-26T20:14:23Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Thanks for pointing the issue out to me! 2018-04-26T20:34:37Z python47` joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:35:04Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:35:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:35:13Z python47` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:35:13Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:36:05Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:36:31Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:37:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:37:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:38:25Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:39:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:42:02Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:42:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:43:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:43:20Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:43:21Z fikka quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-26T20:43:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:43:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:44:01Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:44:16Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:44:20Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:45:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:45:55Z ebzzry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T20:48:07Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:48:44Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:49:27Z SlowJimmy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:49:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:51:05Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T20:51:30Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-26T20:52:30Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:52:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:54:48Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-26T20:54:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:55:13Z zxcvz quit (Quit: zxcvz) 2018-04-26T20:55:17Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T20:55:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T20:55:53Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is anyone maintaining it these days? 2018-04-26T22:00:55Z cgay waves left to right {this is not the language you are looking for} 2018-04-26T22:01:27Z cgay: clhs do-not 2018-04-26T22:01:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for do-not. 2018-04-26T22:02:34Z fsmunoz joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:03:20Z fe[nl]ix: cgay: the CLHS is a good example of a functional data structure 2018-04-26T22:03:22Z caffe: so if i break it up into smaller pieces, what exactly is something like (x N) supposed to do? 2018-04-26T22:03:26Z fe[nl]ix: it's immutable 2018-04-26T22:04:15Z cgay: DO I HAVE TO GET KMP ON THE PHONE HERE? 2018-04-26T22:04:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:04:35Z fe[nl]ix: it's worth trying 2018-04-26T22:04:42Z caffe: (like, what operation is being performed?) 2018-04-26T22:04:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:04:54Z manila[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:04:57Z cgay reads the CLHS legal notice and despairs 2018-04-26T22:05:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:06:03Z cgay: caffe: (x N) is binding the variable name 'x' to the value of the variable named 'N'. 'c' and 'i' are also being bound there. 2018-04-26T22:06:06Z fe[nl]ix: My name is Kent, king of kings; Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! 2018-04-26T22:07:54Z caffe: okay. thanks. sorry for the dumb questions, but i haven't had much success testing single expressions from this program 2018-04-26T22:08:23Z cgay: That's ok. This is my big chance to see if I remember any Common Lisp. 2018-04-26T22:08:51Z pfdietz2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:08:57Z caffe: I'm just finding out I didn't have as good of a grip on it as I thought. 2018-04-26T22:09:10Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-26T22:09:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:10:00Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:10:02Z cgay: As you get older you'll have that feeling a lot. 2018-04-26T22:10:35Z Josh_2: cgay: am pretty young and I have that problem with everything 2018-04-26T22:10:52Z caffe: i'm hoping euler problems don't turn up much in the workplace. 2018-04-26T22:10:55Z cgay: Then it will be twice as bad for you. I'm sorry. 2018-04-26T22:11:16Z caffe: I was fairly confident in my ability before starting this 2018-04-26T22:11:31Z caffe: and probably more productive 2018-04-26T22:11:37Z cgay: caffe: You're in luck. I've had exactly zero Euler problems come up in the workplace in the past 40 years. 2018-04-26T22:11:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:11:54Z caffe: Well, then maybe there's hope after all. 2018-04-26T22:12:15Z SlowJimmy left #lisp 2018-04-26T22:12:48Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:15:17Z ninegrid joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:15:35Z Arcaelyx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-26T22:15:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:18:56Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:19:33Z fsmunoz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:24:22Z mid-teir-lisper joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:24:32Z mid-teir-lisper: is anyone there? 2018-04-26T22:26:08Z hjek joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:26:46Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-26T22:26:57Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:26:59Z cgay: Why? Do you need to know how to spell tier? 2018-04-26T22:28:02Z cgay: ok, that was uncalled for. What's up, mid-teir-lisper? Generally on IRC you should just ask your question... 2018-04-26T22:28:50Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T22:30:41Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:30:46Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-26T22:30:59Z Xach: I am there 2018-04-26T22:31:17Z Josh_2: Milling things 2018-04-26T22:31:25Z mid-teir-lisper quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-26T22:31:44Z Xach: I am milling array headers into raw foreign arrays 2018-04-26T22:31:48Z Xach: Artisinal vectors 2018-04-26T22:31:53Z Xach: Artisanal, rather 2018-04-26T22:32:01Z cgay: OMG WANT 2018-04-26T22:32:03Z Josh_2: Very nice 2018-04-26T22:33:03Z josh joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:33:27Z josh is now known as Guest10621 2018-04-26T22:34:12Z lnostdal quit (Quit: https://quanto.ga/) 2018-04-26T22:34:39Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-26T22:35:20Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:39:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-26T22:43:35Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the 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2018-04-27T02:23:24Z insi: it is a homework assignment 2018-04-27T02:23:34Z insi: so thematically it doesn't have to make sense :P 2018-04-27T02:24:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-27T02:24:31Z White__Flame: in real non-homework use, there's also PUSHNEW which you can modify the test as well 2018-04-27T02:24:58Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2018-04-27T02:26:03Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-27T02:26:37Z insi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-27T02:29:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T02:30:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-27T02:31:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T02:34:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T02:36:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T02:36:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-27T02:38:38Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T02:41:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T02:41:42Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T02:41:50Z nika joined #lisp 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2018-04-27T03:22:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T03:22:36Z ealfonso: it seems like query parameters are much better supported? 2018-04-27T03:26:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:28:29Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:30:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:31:40Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-27T03:32:32Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T03:32:35Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T03:36:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-27T03:36:54Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T03:37:35Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:37:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:38:45Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: You can use a regexep and macro to wrap the boilerplate 2018-04-27T03:39:43Z PuercoPop: This is what I do https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/fb40d1cb8025272c3ba2437e71f26a3a 2018-04-27T03:44:27Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-27T03:45:16Z arescorpio joined #lisp 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Like a olden times printer - putting his work up in the public square for free editing. :-) 2018-04-27T04:48:28Z drmeister: What would you suggest? 2018-04-27T04:48:52Z drmeister: I need to fill seven contiguous elements of a vector. 2018-04-27T04:49:11Z drmeister: Four numbers for the components of a quaternion and then three x, y, z coordinates. 2018-04-27T04:49:16Z beach: I don't have any immediate suggestion. 2018-04-27T04:49:18Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T04:50:22Z drmeister: That function takes a vector like this: 2018-04-27T04:50:39Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T04:50:45Z drmeister: #(-180.66919427590497d0 -881.2260182904439d0 231.43257852229718d0 -479.9920154012122d0 1992.9829583918222d0 -14.490829798676634d0 -67.1107262767643d0 122.77569926522422d0 840.6421670541661d0 -291.06636154816147d0 397.8898934964087d0 1971.7084478581778d0 -35.35365262319839d0 -56.41564091073567d0) 2018-04-27T04:50:57Z drmeister: And turns it into this... 2018-04-27T04:50:58Z White_Flame: you could use displaced arrays, or fill pointer, to hide all the ELT foo 2018-04-27T04:50:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IfIg3HxP/ 2018-04-27T04:51:08Z pfdietz_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T04:51:41Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T04:51:55Z White_Flame: there's also REPLACE to copy a chunk in if you have it pre-formed 2018-04-27T04:52:29Z drmeister: I could - but I don't have it preformed. 2018-04-27T04:53:09Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T04:53:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T04:53:31Z drmeister: I'm taking a single long helix with a centroid and quaternion to describe the orientation and breaking it up into smaller helices that lie along the larger one. 2018-04-27T04:53:34Z phoe: drmeister: (defun bar (part-position part-pos-start) (flet (((setf foo) (new-value index) (setf (elt part-position (+ part-pos-start index)) new-value))) (setf (foo 3) 42))) 2018-04-27T04:53:54Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T04:53:59Z phoe: wrap this FLET around your LOOP and use the shorter SETF function 2018-04-27T04:54:39Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-27T04:55:19Z phoe: also you can FINALLY (RETURN PART-POSITION) from inside LOOP at the end to be a little bit more idiomatic 2018-04-27T04:55:29Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T04:56:00Z White_Flame: (replace part-position (list eha ehb ehc ...) :start1 part-pos-start) is probably the shortest way to do the final batch of ELTs, if I'm reading your code right 2018-04-27T04:56:19Z drmeister: I'll do the finally thing - that's nicer. But I don't have a big problem with the repeated invocations of elt. They get across what I'm trying to do. 2018-04-27T04:56:21Z White_Flame: and there's opportunity for the implementation to optimize that away, to avoid creating the intermediate list 2018-04-27T04:56:21Z phoe: White_Flame: yes, though it'll cons 2018-04-27T04:56:38Z phoe: oh, hm 2018-04-27T04:56:47Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-27T04:56:49Z mckitty quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-27T04:57:15Z phoe: White_Flame: how does it work? I can't declare DX on looped variables 2018-04-27T04:57:37Z White_Flame: if the REPLACE was unrolled 2018-04-27T04:57:49Z phoe: I see 2018-04-27T04:57:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T04:58:17Z White_Flame: or it could be stack allocated 2018-04-27T04:58:33Z White_Flame: (if none of the terms need boxing) 2018-04-27T04:58:36Z nightfly joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:00:23Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-27T05:00:31Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T05:00:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:00:50Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:01:04Z drmeister: I doubt Cleavir does this optimization yet - but I see your point 2018-04-27T05:01:22Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:01:57Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:03:48Z White_Flame: it would be nice to use something similar to destructuring-bind to collapse the 1st set of ELTs 2018-04-27T05:03:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:05:07Z phoe: I still think a FLET and DECLARE INLINE would be a bit shorter, but I agree that this current version is readable. 2018-04-27T05:05:18Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:05:19Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:05:55Z White_Flame: yep 2018-04-27T05:08:28Z luki joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:08:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:09:35Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-27T05:10:46Z luki left #lisp 2018-04-27T05:11:32Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:12:24Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T05:12:57Z drmeister: Not bad - it's breaking this... 2018-04-27T05:12:58Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/GkNu6kW.png 2018-04-27T05:13:00Z drmeister: Into this... 2018-04-27T05:13:06Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:13:44Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/tZAaklz.png 2018-04-27T05:13:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:14:09Z drmeister: But the staples (the cyan tubes) are messed up. 2018-04-27T05:14:26Z drmeister: I'm too tired to fix them now and I have a midterm to give in the morning. 2018-04-27T05:14:36Z drmeister: Thanks everyone - good night. 2018-04-27T05:14:43Z ecraven: good night! 2018-04-27T05:15:04Z gabot joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:18:25Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:19:39Z jack_rabbit: How do you guys deal with providing patches for libraries? I've got a few PRs up on github, but some have been there for ~2 months with no response. Is it bad form to directly email an author? I know people are busy - am I being impatient waiting only 2 months? 2018-04-27T05:19:49Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:20:09Z ealfonso`: PuercoPop thanks. where is the match symbol coming from? I don't see it in hunchentoot or ppcre 2018-04-27T05:22:37Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:22:42Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:23:54Z pillton: jack_rabbit: I wouldn't classify you as being impatient. 2018-04-27T05:25:03Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T05:25:25Z phoe: jack_rabbit: 2 months is enough for a person to take a look and respond 2018-04-27T05:25:33Z phoe: I'd poke the maintainers. 2018-04-27T05:25:55Z jack_rabbit: pillton, phoe, Thanks. I appreciate the input. :) 2018-04-27T05:26:02Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T05:26:43Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:29:06Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:30:56Z ealfonso`: PuercoPop I ended up using something similar to yours, but using ppcre:register-groups-bind 2018-04-27T05:31:05Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:32:38Z jack_rabbit: On a similar note, I've been looking to do more contributions to lisp projects. I'd still classify myself as a beginner. Does anyone know of any libraries or projects in need of some love? 2018-04-27T05:34:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:34:38Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:34:43Z mathZ: I am interested in AI project(s). Are there any projects using tensorflow ? 2018-04-27T05:36:55Z pillton: mathZ: Why are you asking? 2018-04-27T05:37:08Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:37:26Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:38:11Z mathZ: pillton: Since i donot know such a project 2018-04-27T05:38:25Z pillton: You want to write tensorflow in CL? 2018-04-27T05:38:37Z kark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:38:58Z mathZ: hope there is already such a wrapper 2018-04-27T05:39:19Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:39:38Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:40:36Z SlowJimmy left #lisp 2018-04-27T05:41:40Z PuercoPop: ealfonso`: Yeah sorry, I was going to comment on that. It is TRIVIA:MATCH, a pattern matcher, in this case it is basically syntactic sugar around ppcre 2018-04-27T05:41:43Z PuercoPop: See https://github.com/guicho271828/trivia/blob/master/ppcre/package.lisp#L52 2018-04-27T05:42:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:44:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:44:31Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T05:49:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T05:52:17Z beach: jack_rabbit: What kind of work are you looking for? 2018-04-27T05:52:51Z jack_rabbit: beach, probably some minor work suitable for a relative CL beginner. 2018-04-27T05:53:13Z beach: OK, but I suppose the purpose is to progress in your Common Lisp knowledge, right? 2018-04-27T05:53:50Z jack_rabbit: I would say so, yes. Secondary would be to increase the overall quality of available CL libraries. 2018-04-27T05:54:00Z beach: Sounds good. 2018-04-27T05:54:07Z beach: Let me see what I can dig up. 2018-04-27T05:54:15Z jack_rabbit: I can always just write my own projects if all I want to do is learn. :) 2018-04-27T05:54:24Z beach: I understand. 2018-04-27T05:59:28Z haduken joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:00:06Z beach: I have an embryonic GUI application for double-entry bookkeeping, but that might not be what you are looking for. 2018-04-27T06:00:18Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:00:32Z beach: It is a pretty simple system when it comes to logic, but there are plenty of small features that could be added to it. 2018-04-27T06:00:40Z beach: And It could be made a lot prettier. 2018-04-27T06:00:45Z beach: It uses McCLIM. 2018-04-27T06:01:06Z jack_rabbit: Sweet! I'll take a look. 2018-04-27T06:01:36Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Compta 2018-04-27T06:02:00Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:02:26Z beach: It is also an application that I don't think anyone is using, so you can go ahead and experiment on it as much as you like. 2018-04-27T06:02:49Z jack_rabbit: Thanks, beach, I appreciate your help. 2018-04-27T06:03:17Z beach: Sure. I am not sure that this is what you want, of course. If not, I'll try to dig up something else. 2018-04-27T06:03:51Z haduken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:04:01Z beach: On the other hand, it is only 450 lines of course, and more than half is the GUI. 2018-04-27T06:04:14Z beach: So it is in some ways perfect for the purpose. 2018-04-27T06:04:32Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, sounds like a perfect amount to be able to wrap my head around. 2018-04-27T06:04:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:04:40Z beach: Definitely. 2018-04-27T06:10:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:11:22Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-27T06:11:45Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:13:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T06:19:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:21:53Z beach: jack_rabbit: The application is also interesting because it uses CLOS a lot, including the APPEND method combination for the I/O part. So despite its small size, it exercises a lot of Common Lisp. And, it uses CLIM/McCLIM, of course, so that's positive too. 2018-04-27T06:22:36Z mathZ left #lisp 2018-04-27T06:23:08Z jack_rabbit: Excellent. I've been usinc McCLIM quite a bit lately, and want to do more. I also have been looking for reasons to exercise the less common features of CLOS. 2018-04-27T06:23:33Z jack_rabbit: I'll probably start playing with it tomorrow. 2018-04-27T06:24:33Z beach: Great! If you have any questions at all, don't hesitate to ask. 2018-04-27T06:24:47Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:24:53Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:26:09Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:29:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:30:04Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:30:37Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:32:19Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T06:35:22Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:37:09Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T06:37:19Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:39:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:40:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:43:21Z lyding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T06:43:46Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:47:50Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:54:36Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T06:55:20Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T06:58:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:00:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:03:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:03:50Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:09:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:11:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:14:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:14:45Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:15:25Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-27T07:18:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:19:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:22:24Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:22:30Z muresanvlad_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:23:26Z heisig joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:23:56Z muresanvlad_ is now known as DonVlad 2018-04-27T07:24:09Z Hello_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:24:12Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:26:04Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:26:51Z DonVlad is now known as Murii 2018-04-27T07:33:18Z hjek joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:35:11Z muresanvlad_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:35:39Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:36:52Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:39:13Z Murii quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:39:27Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:42:49Z muresanvlad__ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:43:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:46:17Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:46:27Z muresanvlad_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:46:31Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:46:35Z Murii joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:47:04Z oldtopman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T07:49:21Z muresanvlad__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:49:49Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:49:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:51:20Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-27T07:54:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T07:55:47Z LdBeth: Open Genera is so great 2018-04-27T07:59:37Z beach: Yes, but we can do better. 2018-04-27T08:06:09Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:09:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:11:58Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2018-04-27T08:12:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:14:57Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T08:15:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T08:24:46Z haduken joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:29:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:29:45Z haduken quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T08:35:54Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:36:55Z hhdave: Hi. I just noticed that http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html seems to be down. It says “please notify the site admins” but doesn’t say how to contact them. Maybe some are here. 2018-04-27T08:38:22Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:40:35Z haduken joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:42:12Z phoe: #sbcl 2018-04-27T08:42:18Z hhdave: good point… 2018-04-27T08:42:20Z phoe: I've let them know 2018-04-27T08:42:21Z phoe: thanks. 2018-04-27T08:42:24Z hhdave: oh thanks 2018-04-27T08:43:34Z haduken quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T08:45:01Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:49:27Z Blerg joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:50:22Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T08:53:20Z Blerg quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-27T08:54:05Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-27T08:54:54Z schweers joined #lisp 2018-04-27T08:59:47Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T08:59:51Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T09:01:34Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T09:03:03Z DemolitionMan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T09:03:29Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 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to look. 2018-04-27T15:27:15Z klm2is joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:28:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:28:17Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:29:51Z klm2is quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-27T15:29:55Z xificurC quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2018-04-27T15:31:13Z drunk_foxx[m]: hhdave: it works ok for me, so I guess the problem is on your side 2018-04-27T15:31:30Z drunk_foxx[m]: Or they just fixed it as 7 hours passed and I didn't notice that 2018-04-27T15:32:23Z hhdave: drunk_foxx[m]: :) I just checked it and it’s working for me now too, so it must have been fixed. 2018-04-27T15:32:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T15:35:29Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T15:35:44Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:36:34Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:36:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:38:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T15:39:03Z bheesham1 is now known as bheesham 2018-04-27T15:41:11Z python476 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seconds) 2018-04-27T16:32:05Z ealfonso`: https://www.cliki.net/JSON any recommendations on a JSON library? 2018-04-27T16:32:31Z z3t0: hi 2018-04-27T16:33:25Z Xach: ealfonso`: there is a pretty nice comparison by sabra 2018-04-27T16:33:36Z Xach: ealfonso`: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries 2018-04-27T16:33:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T16:35:11Z ealfonso`: Xach thanks 2018-04-27T16:37:56Z comborico1611_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-27T16:38:44Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:39:15Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:39:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:43:02Z surya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:43:13Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T16:43:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T16:44:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:49:38Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:49:41Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-27T16:50:08Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-27T16:52:34Z hhdave 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#lisp 2018-04-27T17:10:34Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T17:11:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T17:11:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:12:57Z SenasOzys__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T17:13:19Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:14:23Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-27T17:14:52Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:15:59Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-27T17:16:27Z dyelar joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:17:30Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:17:31Z surya_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T17:17:43Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-27T17:18:09Z voidlily joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:18:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:20:48Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:22:49Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:23:04Z SenasOzys__ joined #lisp 2018-04-27T17:24:09Z ealfonso`: I'm trying to mock a hunchentoot request to unit-test a handler. I'm using (make-instance 'hunchentoot:request :uri "/my-uri" :headers-in nil :acceptor my-acceptor) . but I'm getting "The variable HUNCHENTOOT:*ACCEPTOR* is unbound" somewhere in this :after method https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/blob/755bd3d34b596d3cda2425cc94ef5f7be3249ecf/request.lisp#L185 . I don't know where in the :after method because when I try to see the 2018-04-27T17:24:09Z ealfonso`: source in slime, I get "Cannot find source location for: # (let ((x 'x)) (x x)) ; t |# 2018-04-27T21:42:45Z pjb: then of course, you need a function named x: (defun x (x) (list x x)) (example x) #| --> (x x) |# 2018-04-27T21:43:02Z tarruda: ok, here it is: https://pastebin.com/E1ML5qp5 2018-04-27T21:43:07Z TMA: tarruda: the rules are really simple (except for the fine print). first, take the arguments to the macro call unevaluated. then pass them to the macro body. whatever it returns is the new code that shall be evaluated instead of the macro 2018-04-27T21:43:20Z tarruda: What I'm doing is simple, as an excercise I'm implementing a recursive descent parser 2018-04-27T21:43:28Z pjb: tarruda: you're creating a symbol named |parse-SOMETHING|. 2018-04-27T21:43:42Z tarruda: my goal is to implement the parser functions using the "defrule" macro 2018-04-27T21:43:50Z pjb: tarruda: beware that (symbol-name 'foo) #| --> "FOO" |# by default, since the default reader settings are to upcase the symbol names. 2018-04-27T21:43:53Z tarruda: which automatically inserts code to check if the input is at EOF 2018-04-27T21:44:25Z tarruda: ok thanks for the pointer 2018-04-27T21:44:31Z tarruda: what about param-list 2018-04-27T21:44:44Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T21:44:50Z pjb: tarruda: (equal (length x) 0) == (zerop (length x)) and assumes that x is bound to a sequence (a list or a vector (including strings)). 2018-04-27T21:45:12Z tarruda: yes, the input will be a string 2018-04-27T21:45:14Z pjb: param-list is not in a position to be evaluated in the expansion. So it won't be evaluated. 2018-04-27T21:45:42Z pjb: (if test nil something) == (unless test something) 2018-04-27T21:46:07Z TMA: tarruda: actually you are repeatedly defining the function |parse-%s|, because FORMAT uses ~s not %s, % is just an ordinary character for FORMAT 2018-04-27T21:46:18Z pjb: Notably when something is several expressions like in ,@body. In a if you'd need progn : (if test (progn ,@body1) (progn ,@body2)) 2018-04-27T21:46:32Z pjb: Yes, too :-) 2018-04-27T21:46:49Z pjb: Unless you're writing an emacs lisp macro, in which case it's ok. 2018-04-27T21:46:49Z tarruda: I've edited the paste, to show how I intend to use the macro: https://pastebin.com/E1ML5qp5 2018-04-27T21:47:19Z tarruda: my goal is to define a `parse-ordinary` function, which automatically has code to detect if input length is 0 2018-04-27T21:47:37Z tarruda: if the input argument is 0, it should return nil 2018-04-27T21:47:44Z dmiles: param-list is not in a position to be evaluated in the expansion. So it won't be evaluated. 2018-04-27T21:47:53Z dmiles: tarruda: that is in fact what you wanted? 2018-04-27T21:47:55Z pjb: tarruda: do you want your parameter list to be always a single mandatory parameter? 2018-04-27T21:48:00Z tarruda: since I'm defining a lot of functions similar to this one, I wanted to abstract this input length check in the macro, not sure if this is the best approach 2018-04-27T21:48:48Z tarruda: pjb: no, I want the caller of `defrule` to determine the paramters, but it will always have at least one argument: the input string 2018-04-27T21:49:03Z tarruda: that is why I'm invoking (car param-list) 2018-04-27T21:49:07Z dmiles: i think perhaps you migh tneed a couple more comma 2018-04-27T21:49:29Z tarruda: so it will work no matter what symbol is used to define the input argument 2018-04-27T21:49:31Z TMA: tarruda: at present the use is equivalent to: (defun |parse-%s| param-list (if (equal (length input 0) nil (list (substring input 1 nil) (list 'literal (aref input 0)))))) 2018-04-27T21:49:42Z pjb: tarruda: you could write also something like this: https://pastebin.com/GmXRWEYC 2018-04-27T21:50:49Z pjb: tarruda: ok, since you want to allow more parameters, it's ok to do it like you did, with (car param-list). 2018-04-27T21:51:25Z tarruda: yea, my goal is to insert automatic detection of EOF in the input parameter, but allow the rule to have extra parameters 2018-04-27T21:51:53Z tarruda: pjb, I tried your macro but got this error: `Eager macro-expansion failure: (void-function gensym)` 2018-04-27T21:52:20Z pjb: tarruda: (require 'cl) it's an alias for cl-gensym. 2018-04-27T21:52:40Z pjb: Since you want to have at least one parameter in the lambda-list, you could write it like this: https://pastebin.com/WEcSSHU7 2018-04-27T21:52:49Z tarruda: ok worked nicely 2018-04-27T21:52:59Z pjb: The lambda-lists for defmacro are destructuring lambda-list, so you can make it more sophisticated than for mere functions. 2018-04-27T21:53:04Z tarruda: thanks pjb, I will have to study the code for a bit 2018-04-27T21:54:03Z pjb: Well, in Common Lisp; it doesn't seem to work in emacs lisp. 2018-04-27T21:54:38Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T21:54:49Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T21:54:53Z pjb: in emacs lisp you hacve to use destructing-bind explicitely: https://pastebin.com/pE3T8UpJ 2018-04-27T21:55:12Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-27T21:56:07Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T21:56:34Z pjb: You could use defmacro* in emacs lisp, defmacro* is closer to the Common Lisp defmacro. https://pastebin.com/rV5WXiA1 2018-04-27T21:56:40Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2018-04-27T21:56:46Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-27T21:56:57Z pjb: defmacro* is an alias for cl-defmacro in (require 'cl) 2018-04-27T21:57:11Z xaotuk quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-27T21:57:21Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-27T21:58:08Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-27T21:59:06Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-27T22:01:04Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:02:10Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:02:59Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:05:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:06:37Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:07:41Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:11:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:17:00Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-27T22:22:12Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-27T22:26:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:27:08Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-27T22:27:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:30:57Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:31:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:33:21Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:37:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:38:10Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:47:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:48:23Z iqubic` joined #lisp 2018-04-27T22:48:35Z pierpa: dmiles: I don't need it for what I'm working on now. But it's a useful tool to keep in my toolbox. 2018-04-27T22:48:38Z iqubic` left #lisp 2018-04-27T22:50:26Z iqubic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:51:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T22:52:28Z pierpa: dmiles: in currently accepted terminology, chess is not a game of chance. Those are games which employs dice or a shuffled deck of cards. Chess is exactly *the opposite* of a game of chance. 2018-04-27T22:54:51Z pierpa: dmiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_skill 2018-04-27T23:01:00Z zachk: pierpa, in chess, there is a chance your opponent doesn't see the moves you are planning 2018-04-27T23:01:44Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:01:50Z Bike: that's not chance. 2018-04-27T23:01:54Z pierpa: that's not what it means to be a game of chance 2018-04-27T23:02:02Z Bike: that's not even hidden information. not knowing what your opponent is going to do is just what a game is 2018-04-27T23:07:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:10:53Z slyrus quit (Quit: slyrus) 2018-04-27T23:11:11Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:11:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:17:06Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:17:48Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:18:38Z makomo: hmm, how come usocket doesn't support send/recv for TCP? 2018-04-27T23:18:57Z makomo: i see a bunch of TODOs in their status table 2018-04-27T23:22:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:24:22Z makomo: oh, am i supposed to just use the class stream-usocket as a stream and just write to it as i would write to any stream? 2018-04-27T23:27:08Z makomo: never mind, usocket:stream-usocket is a socket, while usocket:socket-stream is the accessor for the underlying stream :-) 2018-04-27T23:28:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:32:02Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:32:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:37:47Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:38:55Z cgay mutters something about naming conventions 2018-04-27T23:42:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:43:32Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-27T23:52:13Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:53:51Z wetha joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:54:33Z mckitty joined #lisp 2018-04-27T23:58:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:00:18Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:01:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:01:49Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:02:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:03:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:11:59Z mckitty quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-28T00:13:06Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T00:13:27Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:15:05Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:18:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:21:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:22:42Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-28T00:22:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:23:01Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:24:07Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:26:40Z MasouDa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T00:28:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:30:27Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:31:03Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T00:31:18Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:32:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:33:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:35:10Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:36:57Z Bronsa` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:38:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:42:14Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:43:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:43:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:49:08Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:50:37Z ismdeep joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:51:17Z ismdeep quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T00:53:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T00:55:27Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-28T00:56:03Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2018-04-28T00:59:24Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:02:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:03:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:05:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:09:21Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:14:15Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:17:27Z mflem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:17:29Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:28:34Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-28T01:28:37Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:34:33Z dmiles: i was indeed using chance loosely.. What I was trying to do is distinguish chess from a game of perfect information 2018-04-28T01:35:00Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:39:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:39:39Z dmiles: yet most all chess solvers i know about are designed to work based on "perfect information" which is never possibly going to happen 2018-04-28T01:40:20Z dmiles: in fact with all chess gambits if your opponent was playing with the same perfect information they cant win 2018-04-28T01:40:53Z dmiles: i mean the gambit will fail if your opponent actually was making all the perfect counter moves 2018-04-28T01:41:42Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:42:58Z dmiles: the best case is that your moves have create a multiplex of gambits that at leat one is not detected by your opponent 2018-04-28T01:43:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:43:52Z dmiles: which one will succeed will always be at best a random guess 2018-04-28T01:44:48Z dmiles: not that this makes it a game of chance but you cannot know which gambits your opponent will miss 2018-04-28T01:44:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T01:45:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:46:53Z yangby joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:47:15Z yangby is now known as Guest36608 2018-04-28T01:48:34Z ebrasca: dmiles: I think you can find some steps with 100% win rate. I don't know if for white or black. 2018-04-28T01:49:28Z dmiles: yes with white i think there are 2018-04-28T01:49:50Z dmiles: but those still i assumed is when both sides play with the same bootstrap 2018-04-28T01:49:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:50:26Z zachk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T01:51:23Z dmiles: if you, ebrasca, are correct then indeed there can be a perfect, non-chanchy, game of chess played 2018-04-28T01:53:39Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-28T01:53:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T01:56:16Z dmiles: also i was wrong about not being perfect information.. it is.. but its a game of incomplete information instead 2018-04-28T01:59:58Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-28T02:04:42Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:05:19Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:10:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:10:43Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:11:57Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T02:12:58Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:14:55Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-28T02:15:24Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:17:02Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:19:29Z pierpa: dmiles: but chess*is* the prototypical example of a perfect information game! 2018-04-28T02:20:00Z pierpa: and the point of chess is not hoping the opponenet doesn't see your cunning plans 2018-04-28T02:20:42Z pierpa: (but let's continue in lispcafe, if interested) 2018-04-28T02:20:49Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T02:23:26Z iqubic: where's is lispcafe? is that just #lispcafe? 2018-04-28T02:23:32Z pierpa: yes 2018-04-28T02:24:57Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:25:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:28:42Z Winterschlaf joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:30:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:30:05Z MasouDa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T02:34:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:36:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:36:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:39:29Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:40:16Z brendyn joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:40:20Z Josh_2: https://pastebin.com/Ay4Utu8x can someone help me with this macro, I understand why it is saying it is an unknown block but I don't know how to fix it 2018-04-28T02:40:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:41:59Z pmetzger quit 2018-04-28T02:44:01Z pierpa: (loop named foo ... (return-from foo ...)) maybe 2018-04-28T02:44:53Z pierpa: (block foo (loop ... (return-from foo ...))) maybe^2 2018-04-28T02:45:05Z Josh_2: I did try the second, I will try it again though 2018-04-28T02:45:12Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-28T02:45:22Z pierpa: then wait, let me look better 2018-04-28T02:45:51Z Josh_2: Wait that might have done it 2018-04-28T02:46:08Z Josh_2: however if I have return from block pop nil will the end result of the function be nil? 2018-04-28T02:46:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:46:24Z Josh_2: I think so 2018-04-28T02:46:24Z pierpa: what function? 2018-04-28T02:46:37Z Josh_2: Well the macro sorry 2018-04-28T02:47:02Z pierpa: you are mixing compile time things with run time things 2018-04-28T02:47:13Z pierpa: let's see 2018-04-28T02:47:50Z pierpa: the return-from is source code that your macro manipulates 2018-04-28T02:48:18Z pierpa: it is not executed at the time your macro expander function is run 2018-04-28T02:48:37Z pierpa: they are in two different worlds, so to speak 2018-04-28T02:48:42Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-28T02:48:59Z pierpa: use MACROEXPAND to understand better 2018-04-28T02:50:22Z pierpa: (pprint (macroexpand-1 '(pop-data ...))) 2018-04-28T02:51:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:51:31Z Josh_2: I mean it is working 2018-04-28T02:51:38Z pierpa: if you macroexpand your original macro you see that there's no block named pop-data in the expansion 2018-04-28T02:51:43Z Josh_2: Yeh 2018-04-28T02:51:58Z pierpa: ok 2018-04-28T02:52:02Z Josh_2: It is working with (block pop .. (return-from pop nil)) 2018-04-28T02:52:08Z pierpa: good 2018-04-28T02:52:35Z pierpa: (loop named pop ...) should be equivalent 2018-04-28T02:52:43Z Josh_2: THanks for the help, you think I need to gensym the symbol names? I am actually trying to pass in global variable names intentionally 2018-04-28T02:52:49Z pierpa: If I remember corectly Loops syntax, that is 2018-04-28T02:53:23Z warweasle quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T02:53:52Z pierpa: I think there's no need to gensym the names, but let me check more carefully 2018-04-28T02:54:18Z Josh_2: This is an example call " (pop-data *sites-data* *sites-lock* *sites-queue*)" 2018-04-28T02:54:30Z Josh_2: I want it to modify the global variables, that's why I used a macro 2018-04-28T02:54:48Z pierpa: wait! why are you defining a macro at all? 2018-04-28T02:55:02Z Josh_2: Uhm 2018-04-28T02:55:14Z Josh_2: Because I needed the name of the global variable not the data 2018-04-28T02:55:33Z Josh_2: and when I had just a function it kept trying to push a value to nil 2018-04-28T02:56:27Z pierpa: ok. got it 2018-04-28T02:57:17Z pierpa: I think there's no need to gensym the names, then. But don't sue me if I'm wrong. 2018-04-28T02:59:09Z Guest36608 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T02:59:49Z Guest36608 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:01:43Z jself quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-28T03:02:52Z doanyway quit 2018-04-28T03:03:06Z z3t0: Hi, I am trying to learn about programming languages that are fundamentally different from others 2018-04-28T03:03:17Z z3t0: So far I have spent some time hacking in common lisp and now am taking a look at smalltalk 2018-04-28T03:03:48Z z3t0: One of the main features of smalltalk is that everything is accessible and reflective as it is based on a live image 2018-04-28T03:04:18Z z3t0: I have noticed pretty much the same idea in common lisp, or is there something different about how one of these functions in terms of everything being at your fingertips at all times? 2018-04-28T03:04:56Z pierpa: I'd say CL is less reflective than Smalltalk. 2018-04-28T03:06:13Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:09:56Z jself joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:11:09Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:11:45Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:12:05Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:13:14Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:15:06Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T03:15:39Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:16:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:16:26Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T03:16:45Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:18:27Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:21:52Z Josh_2: So I was just thrown into the ldb, how do I get back to my normal slime session? 2018-04-28T03:22:57Z pfdietz_: Can't? 2018-04-28T03:23:06Z Josh_2: I don't know how 2018-04-28T03:24:12Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T03:26:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:31:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: I think if you get thrown in, you should go to inferior-lisp, quit ldb and start a new lisp. 2018-04-28T03:31:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:31:55Z Josh_2: Yeh that's what I did 2018-04-28T03:33:32Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-28T03:35:05Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:36:50Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:37:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:39:44Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:40:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:41:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T03:41:40Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T03:41:49Z Hello_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-28T03:45:09Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T03:47:52Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:48:14Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T03:50:19Z Josh_2: Just caused my pc to crash because I didn't manage to kill a rogue thread on time 2018-04-28T03:54:04Z pierpa: hmmm 2018-04-28T03:56:58Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:00:02Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:00:12Z Josh_2: Yeh wasn't smart 2018-04-28T04:01:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:04:34Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:07:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:08:38Z Josh_2: added a sleep now so it doesn't crash 2018-04-28T04:12:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:17:23Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:19:36Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:24:29Z bird-dog joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:25:11Z bird-dog quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T04:27:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:28:55Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-28T04:32:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:36:40Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:37:04Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T04:37:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:41:50Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:42:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:44:03Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T04:44:09Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:44:24Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:46:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:47:54Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T04:52:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:54:25Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T04:57:44Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:00:31Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T05:00:31Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T05:00:46Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:00:48Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:02:12Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:02:29Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:03:41Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-28T05:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:23:08Z mflem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T05:29:01Z koenig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T05:29:26Z koenig joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:29:53Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:31:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:32:10Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:32:51Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:33:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:34:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:35:34Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:35:34Z sauvin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-28T05:38:45Z energizer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:38:51Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:39:06Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:39:18Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:41:14Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:44:38Z asarch: From "http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html": (defmethod withdraw ((account bank-account) amount) <- Which part is the name of the parameter[1] and which is the specializer[2]? 2018-04-28T05:45:12Z asarch: Is [1] == (account bank-account) and [2] == amount? 2018-04-28T05:45:17Z Firedancer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:45:29Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T05:46:07Z Bike: "account" and "amount" are parameter names. bank-account is a specializer. 2018-04-28T05:46:30Z asarch: Thank you Bike 2018-04-28T05:46:33Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2018-04-28T05:46:39Z asarch takes notes... 2018-04-28T05:46:51Z uint quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:46:59Z uint joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:47:04Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:49:21Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:51:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:53:51Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:54:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T05:55:56Z surya_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:55:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T05:56:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T06:06:02Z asarch: Another question: what is a "specializer"? Does it mean, "an instance" or "a super class"? 2018-04-28T06:06:37Z Bike: specializers are either classes or eql specializers. 2018-04-28T06:07:00Z Bike: your method definition is for a method that takes two parameters, and the first parameter is an instance of the class bank-account. 2018-04-28T06:07:44Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:08:46Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T06:08:51Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:10:26Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:10:33Z test1600 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:10:49Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:11:09Z asarch: Thank you 2018-04-28T06:11:17Z asarch: Thank you very much once again Bike :-) 2018-04-28T06:11:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:12:24Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2018-04-28T06:12:27Z carmack: Hi! Anyone have job where you wirk with clisp? 2018-04-28T06:12:37Z carmack: work* 2018-04-28T06:13:31Z phoe: carmack: CLISP or Common Lisp? 2018-04-28T06:13:45Z phoe: The first is an implementation, the other is a language. 2018-04-28T06:14:02Z megalography left #lisp 2018-04-28T06:14:02Z carmack: Common Lisp 2018-04-28T06:14:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:15:31Z phoe: some of us do, yes; I know of at least two companies which are hiring right now 2018-04-28T06:15:44Z phoe: they advertised at the last European Lisp Symposium. 2018-04-28T06:17:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:23:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-28T06:23:45Z phoe: beach: good morning! 2018-04-28T06:24:03Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T06:24:51Z addsub: I am not sure whether the author cares, but I found a grammatical error in the first chapter of 'gentle intro' 2018-04-28T06:25:11Z beach: What's the error? 2018-04-28T06:25:41Z addsub: one sec 2018-04-28T06:28:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:36:10Z addsub: I lost it, it isn't really important since it doesn't impact the procedure, but sounds ghetto. It's a 'be' that should be an 'are'. 2018-04-28T06:36:13Z addsub: no big deal though. 2018-04-28T06:36:51Z beach: addsub: Are you sure that it is not the subjunctive form? 2018-04-28T06:37:00Z carmack: i read "ghetto" like a "gentoo", lol 2018-04-28T06:37:42Z beach: addsub: As in "I would rather they be fired". 2018-04-28T06:38:04Z addsub: beach: exactly. 2018-04-28T06:38:09Z beach: That's correct. 2018-04-28T06:38:16Z addsub: :/ 2018-04-28T06:38:20Z addsub: ok nevermind then. 2018-04-28T06:38:22Z beach: It is not the subjunctive, but I forget the name of the verb form. 2018-04-28T06:39:09Z nika_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:40:47Z TMA: I have seen subjunctive or conjunctive for this form in English 2018-04-28T06:41:08Z lyding quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-28T06:41:14Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T06:41:16Z beach: Yes, but Steven Pinker says it is something different. I just can't remember. 2018-04-28T06:41:19Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:41:36Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-28T06:44:42Z TMA: addsub: it is the same form as in "If I were ..." or "If he care" 2018-04-28T06:45:01Z phoe: Sigh 2018-04-28T06:45:17Z phoe: It is impossible to retrieve the value of a class-allocated slot without creating an instance of said class. 2018-04-28T06:45:46Z addsub: I found it. In this case I doubt it's a special verb form. 2018-04-28T06:45:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T06:46:00Z phoe: I thought that MOP:CLASS-PROTOTYPE would allow me to do this, but: "Whether the instance is initialized is not specified." 2018-04-28T06:46:42Z phoe: Or rather, s/impossible/impossible in a way I hoped to do it/. 2018-04-28T06:47:04Z jackdaniel: everything is impossible in lisp! wait, that doesn't sound right :-) 2018-04-28T06:47:38Z phoe: I'll need to write a class-slot-value or something that fetches the slot metaobject from the class itself. 2018-04-28T06:48:04Z addsub: page 19 'Chapter 1 Functions and Data 7. Second sentence in second line 'It is important that you be able to tell the difference between numbers' 2018-04-28T06:48:15Z beach: That is correct. 2018-04-28T06:49:35Z addsub: ok 2018-04-28T06:56:41Z beach: phoe: Use the class prototype. 2018-04-28T06:57:47Z beach: mop class-prototype 2018-04-28T06:57:47Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-prototype.html 2018-04-28T06:59:49Z phoe: beach: "Whether the instance is initialized is not specified." 2018-04-28T07:00:20Z phoe: Does this mean that class-allocated slots are also not initialized? 2018-04-28T07:01:32Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:01:47Z trn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T07:05:09Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T07:05:30Z addsub: I wish the first chapter had expanded exercises, those look fun. 2018-04-28T07:05:33Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T07:07:08Z phoe: beach: I can't yet see the MOP specifying this anywhere. 2018-04-28T07:10:33Z beach: phoe: You use the prototype only for specialization. 2018-04-28T07:10:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:10:47Z beach: The prototype does not contain the slot. The class does. 2018-04-28T07:11:08Z phoe: Hm. Wait a second. 2018-04-28T07:11:16Z beach: phoe: So don't attempt to read any instance-allocated slots. 2018-04-28T07:11:28Z phoe: Does this mean that I can do (slot-value (class-prototype 'foo) 'class-allocated-slot)? 2018-04-28T07:11:38Z beach: yes. 2018-04-28T07:11:55Z beach: That's the typical use for the prototype. 2018-04-28T07:12:03Z phoe: ...oh. Oooooh. 2018-04-28T07:12:10Z phoe: Makes sense now. Thanks! 2018-04-28T07:12:15Z beach: Anytime. 2018-04-28T07:14:41Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T07:14:41Z phoe: beach: I have one more question that you might be able to answer. 2018-04-28T07:14:58Z beach: Sure, go right ahead. 2018-04-28T07:14:59Z phoe: Why SET-FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION is not a (SETF FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION)? 2018-04-28T07:15:20Z beach: Oh, I don't know. I have asked myself that as well. 2018-04-28T07:15:33Z phoe: Hmm. Okay. 2018-04-28T07:16:13Z beach: The MOP definitely does not have the same level of standard as the Common Lisp HyperSpec does. 2018-04-28T07:16:26Z beach: ... as the authors also admit. 2018-04-28T07:18:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:21:56Z trn joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:25:50Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-28T07:29:54Z ykm joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:31:19Z LdBeth: How to translate string to bit array? 2018-04-28T07:32:07Z beach: That depends a lot on how you want it translated. 2018-04-28T07:33:22Z ykm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T07:33:24Z LdBeth: I want to checksum a password string 2018-04-28T07:34:27Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:34:35Z LdBeth: So it probably like how the characters represented in a text file 2018-04-28T07:37:56Z phoe: LdBeth: best translate it to a vector of (unsigned-byte 8)s then 2018-04-28T07:38:00Z LdBeth: Yes I get some idea 2018-04-28T07:38:30Z phoe: is your string a hexadecimal string? 2018-04-28T07:38:38Z phoe: or does it contain arbitrary text? 2018-04-28T07:39:08Z LdBeth: Just ASCII texts 2018-04-28T07:40:19Z phoe: use FLEXI-STREAMS:STRING-TO-OCTETS 2018-04-28T07:40:33Z phoe: that will give you a vector of uint8s that you can work on. 2018-04-28T07:48:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T07:49:28Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-28T07:52:30Z ym joined #lisp 2018-04-28T08:02:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T08:16:29Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-28T08:18:21Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-28T08:20:32Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T08:34:35Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T08:39:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T08:45:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T08:46:51Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I've updated the semaphore PR yesterday (taken into account your remarks) 2018-04-28T08:49:29Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-28T08:51:02Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-28T08:53:10Z Winterschlaf left #lisp 2018-04-28T08:55:05Z light2yellow quit (Quit: brb) 2018-04-28T08:58:15Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:00:49Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:04:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T09:06:03Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:06:10Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:06:15Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:08:23Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:10:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T09:11:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T09:14:54Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-28T09:15:18Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:15:23Z pyx joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:15:41Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T09:16:33Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:18:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:21:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T09:22:37Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T09:23:53Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:26:31Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:27:05Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:27:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:29:44Z johnvonneumann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T09:31:37Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T09:32:59Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:36:43Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:46:14Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:46:14Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:58:47Z wigust- joined #lisp 2018-04-28T09:59:22Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:00:01Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:03:13Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:05:24Z light2yellow: why am I getting "value (fact k) is not of type number" ( https://pastebin.com/raw/EhG8tW6R ) ? shouldn't it look at fact and see that it returns number? or I cannot do this because macros don't evaluate at compile time, but have to be compileable? 2018-04-28T10:05:24Z janivaltteri joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:05:41Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-28T10:08:45Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:10:27Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:13:03Z light2yellow: if I replace (mult2 (fact k)) with (* 2 (fact k)) it works as intended, so I don't undestand why it doesn't work with the macto 2018-04-28T10:14:54Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:16:49Z phoe: light2yellow: why do you use macrolet? 2018-04-28T10:16:59Z phoe: replace MACROLET with FLET and this code will work. 2018-04-28T10:17:53Z phoe: Also, why do you use INCF? Now both X and Y contain 5. 2018-04-28T10:18:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:20:55Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-28T10:21:16Z v0|d joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:23:09Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2018-04-28T10:23:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:24:48Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:24:52Z light2yellow: phoe: because I'm exploring the laguage. also, never mind, I finally figured out what `, , and @ do, so (mult2 (a) `(* 2 ,a)) seems to work 2018-04-28T10:25:14Z beach: But it is not good style to use a macro when a function will do. 2018-04-28T10:25:23Z light2yellow: I know 2018-04-28T10:25:29Z light2yellow: see first sentense 2018-04-28T10:27:07Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:30:06Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T10:30:24Z SlowJimmy quit (Quit: good bye cruel world) 2018-04-28T10:34:40Z beach: light2yellow: Things don't quite work that way. If you ask for help, you can not demand that people ignore all the style violations in order to answer only the particular issue you are asking for. 2018-04-28T10:34:56Z beach: light2yellow: And there is still the question of the INCF. 2018-04-28T10:36:14Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T10:38:27Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:38:38Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:38:41Z light2yellow: beach: not demanding anything, but okay 2018-04-28T10:38:55Z gacepa joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:39:11Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:40:47Z Arcaelyx_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T10:42:19Z Arcaelyx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:44:45Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:51:13Z surya_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T10:51:27Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:00:03Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:02:54Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:03:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:07:36Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T11:08:36Z karswell joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:12:25Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:12:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:16:06Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T11:20:33Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T11:37:44Z wigust- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T11:52:23Z Arcaelyx_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I can't believe we put it in this 2018-04-28T13:26:54Z Xof: ;;; way. No doubt this is a large part of what drives MLY crazy. 2018-04-28T13:27:07Z Bike: args lambda list is just inoperable on ecl and clasp 2018-04-28T13:27:53Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:28:06Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:28:38Z Bike: what is MLY? a maintainer? 2018-04-28T13:29:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:29:08Z Xof: probably a developer of PCL back when it was at Xerox 2018-04-28T13:30:35Z splittist: Molly Miller? 2018-04-28T13:30:55Z Xof: the good news is that I reckon this can be made to display hilariously broken behaviour 2018-04-28T13:31:02Z Xof: so much worse than anything Didier showed at ELS 2018-04-28T13:31:57Z _death: could be Richard Mlynarik 2018-04-28T13:32:23Z phoe: Xof: please document it and submit to the next ELS, so you can stand up and announce everyone, "I have bad news and bad news; the bad news is that Didier was right last year, the bad news is that I found things that are even worse than that" 2018-04-28T13:32:32Z phoe: s/everyone/ 2018-04-28T13:33:21Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:35:05Z v0|d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T13:36:42Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:38:03Z Bike: i've thought about how to implement it, but it seems like a huge pain in the ass, and nobody uses method combinations to begin with, let alone their exotic features 2018-04-28T13:38:18Z Bike: and i don't think that's because of poor support 2018-04-28T13:39:07Z Xof: I think they have potential in the obfuscated lisp coding contest 2018-04-28T13:39:27Z Bike: oh, well, when you put it that way 2018-04-28T13:39:59Z addsub: I guess in lisp world there's no real rush to port docs to epub format. 2018-04-28T13:40:00Z beach: McCLIM defines a method combination called VALUES-MAX-MIN. 2018-04-28T13:40:11Z phoe: addsub: what do you mean? 2018-04-28T13:40:29Z addsub: phoe: I am converting 'gentle intro' to epub. 2018-04-28T13:40:42Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-28T13:40:45Z phoe: obfuscated lisp coding contest is troublesome as soon as you allow reader macros because you can implement a malbolge parser and write the rest of your program in malbolge. 2018-04-28T13:40:48Z addsub: the small font is killing my eyes. 2018-04-28T13:41:05Z addsub: really hard to browse too. 2018-04-28T13:41:15Z Xof: (defgeneric foo (x) (:method-combination japh) (:method ((x symbol)) x)) (foo x) ; => "Just another Lisp hacker" 2018-04-28T13:41:37Z Bike: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/b3546424f68ccc72c762ccb8be16400768ad2479/Libraries/ESA/utils.lisp#L202-L228 this? still no :arguments 2018-04-28T13:42:02Z Bike: kinda neat though 2018-04-28T13:43:09Z beach: Yes, that one. 2018-04-28T13:43:52Z Xof: I touched that code almost 10 years ago 2018-04-28T13:44:17Z Xof: Athas wrote most of it, though 2018-04-28T13:44:46Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:45:40Z Bike: looks like it's only used for one function, which has two methods, both of which return 0 as primary value 2018-04-28T13:45:48Z Bike: need some extensions to truly leverage all the complication 2018-04-28T13:47:35Z Xof: pretty sure it is (was) actually used 2018-04-28T13:49:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:49:23Z surya quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-28T13:49:52Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:50:02Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: you do know that obfuscated C contest is considered succesful when the year's winning entry leads to a rule change for the next year? 2018-04-28T13:51:21Z MichaelRaskin: A malbolge parser as a reader in obfuscated lisp content would not even need a rule change, it will just get a «so what» from every judge 2018-04-28T13:51:34Z Bike: yeah dull 2018-04-28T13:51:42Z Bike: now, if there was a malbolge method combination, 2018-04-28T13:52:02Z Xof: don't tempt me 2018-04-28T13:52:26Z Bike: at least a turing complete method combination 2018-04-28T13:52:56Z Bike: you could have the qualifiers be transition tuples 2018-04-28T13:53:28Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: yes 2018-04-28T13:53:34Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:53:36Z phoe: Bike: oh my god 2018-04-28T13:54:18Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T13:55:17Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:55:36Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-28T13:57:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:58:54Z deng_cn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:59:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T13:59:35Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T13:59:50Z jackdaniel: are we designing CL++ or what? :) 2018-04-28T13:59:57Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:03:28Z Bike: should be doable without standards changes 2018-04-28T14:05:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:05:53Z Xof: well I think method combinations might be the opposite of Turing complete 2018-04-28T14:05:58Z Xof: I can't work out how to do anything with them 2018-04-28T14:07:46Z phoe: Xof: you could get it to loop unto itself somehow 2018-04-28T14:08:11Z Bike: off the top of my head, you could have a positive integer be the parameter, then have qualifiers be a rational, then make the effective method the list of execution of a FRACTRAN program in order 2018-04-28T14:10:50Z phoe: while inside a method combination, you could perhaps redefine the method combination and call the GF again 2018-04-28T14:11:05Z phoe: I don't think the standard disallows this 2018-04-28T14:11:18Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T14:15:21Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T14:17:00Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:19:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:29:18Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:32:18Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T14:37:24Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:38:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:45:17Z deng_cn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T14:45:36Z deng_cn joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:47:34Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-28T14:48:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T14:49:56Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T14:51:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T14:52:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:54:08Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T14:58:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T14:58:35Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:00:08Z iqubic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T15:03:53Z Hello_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:04:00Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:09:33Z rml joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:10:00Z rml is now known as rml_ 2018-04-28T15:14:58Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:18:59Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:19:27Z azimut joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:19:42Z dented42 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:19:42Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:20:11Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:22:52Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-28T15:24:53Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:26:07Z beach: jackdaniel: The clstandard_build is not exactly what I am looking for to use for WSCL. It builds each file separately, which is not good enough for the kind of cross referencing I have in mind. 2018-04-28T15:26:20Z beach: jackdaniel: But thanks for suggesting it. 2018-04-28T15:27:06Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-28T15:31:05Z jackdaniel: sure 2018-04-28T15:32:10Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-28T15:32:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:34:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:36:00Z rml_ quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.94.2) 2018-04-28T15:37:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:38:09Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:38:57Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:42:57Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:44:05Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T15:44:21Z nullman joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:47:34Z Xof: looping back is, I think, fairly easy: you can manipulate the next method list for every call-method site 2018-04-28T15:48:19Z Xof: ok, I have a semi-sensible long-form method combination with arguments 2018-04-28T15:48:43Z Xof: remember Didier said he wanted to be able to choose between or and and method-combination at runtime? 2018-04-28T15:48:44Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:48:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:48:46Z Xof: behold: 2018-04-28T15:48:59Z Xof: (what 'every 3) ; => NIL 2018-04-28T15:49:10Z Xof: (what 'some 3) ; => T 2018-04-28T15:50:46Z Xof: (what (lambda (f seq) (apply 'concatenate 'string (mapcar 'string seq))) 3) ; => "NILT" 2018-04-28T15:51:30Z igemnace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T15:51:36Z dlowe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2018-04-28T15:53:34Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:54:12Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2018-04-28T15:55:15Z Bike: using :arguments? 2018-04-28T15:55:48Z Bike: i mean, the first argument is how to combine, i guess 2018-04-28T15:57:27Z jonh left #lisp 2018-04-28T15:58:45Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:02:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:02:31Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:06:21Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:09:43Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T16:10:06Z Xof: yes 2018-04-28T16:10:15Z Xof: I mean it's nothing that you can't do with an around method 2018-04-28T16:10:20Z Xof: don't rain on my parade 2018-04-28T16:12:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:15:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:17:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:19:35Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:28:11Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:29:56Z shrdlu68 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T16:30:43Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:30:48Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:32:22Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2018-04-28T16:33:47Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:36:18Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:36:58Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:37:57Z lonjil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T16:38:39Z sauvin_ is now known as sauvin 2018-04-28T16:38:39Z beach` joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:39:05Z edgar-rft prefers '(:bam :clunk :pow :slosh :whack) over :arguments 2018-04-28T16:40:19Z ferada joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:40:41Z ferada: hi all, anyone using next/cl-webkit? 2018-04-28T16:42:44Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:43:12Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:46:12Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:47:57Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:49:41Z ghostyy quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-28T16:49:42Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:49:48Z ghostyy joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:50:07Z ghostyy quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-28T16:50:16Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:50:20Z ghostyyy joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:51:30Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:52:17Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:54:48Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T16:54:57Z tripty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:56:54Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:57:52Z thorondor[m]: hello. I have problem running cl-cairo2 on ECL. https://github.com/rpav/cl-cairo2/issues/24 2018-04-28T16:57:57Z dcluna_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T16:58:07Z thorondor[m]: Does anybody have an idea why? 2018-04-28T17:00:05Z palter quit 2018-04-28T17:00:27Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:01:40Z cage_: no idea sorry :( 2018-04-28T17:01:46Z jackdaniel: pointer-void means (void *) 2018-04-28T17:02:18Z dcluna joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:02:27Z jackdaniel: how the problem manifests? 2018-04-28T17:03:00Z jackdaniel: (because it looks like a correct function result) 2018-04-28T17:03:10Z surya quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-28T17:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:03:58Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:04:24Z thorondor[m]: pointer should not be void 2018-04-28T17:04:29Z tripty joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:04:44Z thorondor[m]: should give a SAP pointer to a created cairo surface 2018-04-28T17:04:54Z thorondor[m]: happens only on ECL, works in SBCL, CCL 2018-04-28T17:05:00Z thorondor[m]: I don't know how to debug 2018-04-28T17:05:03Z jackdaniel: function declaration says: pointer 2018-04-28T17:05:05Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:05:07Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-28T17:05:13Z jackdaniel: if it is not (void*), then what should be default? 2018-04-28T17:05:15Z jackdaniel: (int*)? 2018-04-28T17:05:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: struct cairo_image_surface *? 2018-04-28T17:05:47Z svillemot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:06:10Z jackdaniel: I fail to see it in the function definition in linked issue 2018-04-28T17:06:40Z thorondor[m]: I don't know, but the surface is not created :) 2018-04-28T17:06:41Z jackdaniel: if function is declared to return :pointer, then result will be a void pointer and it is not incorrect 2018-04-28T17:06:42Z Bike: i think what thorondor means is that the pointer should not be NULL? 2018-04-28T17:07:12Z thorondor[m]: bike: yes 2018-04-28T17:07:39Z Bike: does ecl not print the address? :pointer-void just means it's a void*, i guess 2018-04-28T17:08:59Z jackdaniel: it does not print the address 2018-04-28T17:09:03Z svillemot joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:09:18Z Bike: alright, so the result might be fine 2018-04-28T17:09:26Z jackdaniel: and and I've tried it in my repl 2018-04-28T17:09:36Z Bike: maybe there's supposed to be a side effect of making something on the screen or whatnot 2018-04-28T17:09:43Z jackdaniel: (ffi:null-pointer-p (cairo::cairo_image…)) ; -> NIL 2018-04-28T17:09:59Z jackdaniel: maybe, but returned pointer is not a null pointer on my system 2018-04-28T17:10:13Z _death: also seems cl-cairo2 already wraps surfaces.. https://github.com/rpav/cl-cairo2/blob/master/src/surface.lisp#L222 2018-04-28T17:10:39Z jackdaniel: I'll add a ticket to ecl's gitlab to print address of the pointer to avoid user confusion 2018-04-28T17:11:04Z jackdaniel: thorondor[m]: sap is sbcl-specific type 2018-04-28T17:11:29Z thorondor[m]: oh 2018-04-28T17:11:33Z pfdietz_: "nobody uses method combinations" 2018-04-28T17:11:35Z Bike: if ecl keeps track of the referent type that's kind of interesting, i don't think other implementations do that 2018-04-28T17:11:37Z thorondor[m]: and does cairo tests work for you? 2018-04-28T17:11:43Z thorondor[m]: yes 2018-04-28T17:11:53Z Bike: pfdietz_: i was being hyperbolic, of course 2018-04-28T17:11:57Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:12:35Z jackdaniel: Bike: it does 2018-04-28T17:12:40Z thorondor[m]: (ql:quickload :cl-cairo2-demos) 2018-04-28T17:12:46Z thorondor[m]: (cairo-demo:run 'cairo-demo::mesh1) 2018-04-28T17:12:50Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:14:11Z krwq joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:15:27Z omilu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T17:16:39Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-04-28T17:16:57Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:18:03Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:18:12Z dented42 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T17:18:21Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-28T17:18:25Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:18:37Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:19:52Z jackdaniel: if you narrow the problem please report the issue (if it is ECL's fault) at https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/ 2018-04-28T17:20:15Z jackdaniel: thing described in your ticket is not the cause of cairo demos failing 2018-04-28T17:21:20Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T17:21:38Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:22:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:23:16Z thorondor[m]: ok, thanks 2018-04-28T17:23:22Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:24:26Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T17:32:25Z SlowJimmy left #lisp 2018-04-28T17:32:58Z glv quit (Quit: glv) 2018-04-28T17:33:52Z ophan joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:40:56Z drastik_ is now known as drastik 2018-04-28T17:45:09Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T17:45:53Z asarch: If I do: (defgeneric bread (butter ham) (:documentation "Bread for your breakfast")) and then I do: (defmethod bread ((butter hot-cake) coffe) (format t "American breakfast to go")). What's wrong? 2018-04-28T17:46:35Z asarch: "There is no class named COMMON-LISP-USER::HOT-CAKE."? 2018-04-28T17:46:36Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:47:29Z Bike: that seems like a pretty informative error message 2018-04-28T17:47:37Z jackdaniel: well, do you have class hot-cake? 2018-04-28T17:48:55Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-28T17:48:59Z jackdaniel: bisection indicates, that problem is somewhere between screen and a chair (exclusive) 2018-04-28T17:49:02Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2018-04-28T17:49:22Z Bike: (defmethod ((butter hot-cake) coffee) ...) means the method takes two arguments, and the first one is an instance of the class hot-cake 2018-04-28T17:49:29Z Bike: if there is no class hot-cake to be an instance of, t here's problems 2018-04-28T17:51:15Z asarch: How would I fix it? 2018-04-28T17:51:21Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T17:51:32Z Bike: have a class hot-cake 2018-04-28T17:51:37Z asarch: I mean, this example is from the PCL and it doesn't say anything about it 2018-04-28T17:51:39Z Bike: what are you trying to do here? what did you expect to happen? 2018-04-28T17:52:26Z asarch: The book doesn't say anything about a previous class definition for, this case, "hot-cake" 2018-04-28T17:52:36Z Bike: what chapter is this? 2018-04-28T17:52:59Z asarch: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 2018-04-28T17:53:59Z Bike: there's no "hot-cake" in this text, or 'bread" in code 2018-04-28T17:54:01Z Bike: am i missing something 2018-04-28T17:54:35Z asarch: No, I just replace some words for other words 2018-04-28T17:54:58Z asarch: Then, would you declare a class? 2018-04-28T17:55:04Z asarch: *How would you... 2018-04-28T17:55:17Z Bike: defclass. covered in the next chapter. 2018-04-28T17:55:23Z asarch: Doesn't DEFGENERIC do that? 2018-04-28T17:55:26Z asarch: D'oh! 2018-04-28T17:55:30Z Bike: no, defgeneric defines a generic function. 2018-04-28T17:55:45Z Bike: looking at this chapter, it doesn't seem like the code is intended to be run independently. 2018-04-28T17:55:58Z asarch: Oh :-( I thought generic function was the same for classes in Lisp 2018-04-28T17:56:16Z ferada left #lisp 2018-04-28T17:56:31Z asarch: Thank you Bike 2018-04-28T17:56:36Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2018-04-28T17:56:38Z edgar-rft: asarch, the last sentence on that page is "In the next chapter I'll show you how to define your own classes." 2018-04-28T17:56:39Z Bike: there's a section in here titled "Generic Functions and Classes" 2018-04-28T17:57:06Z hjek: hi, anyone tried LTK? any code i run just gives me a blank window. tried to run a TCL/TK example with 'wish' and worked fine. 2018-04-28T17:57:42Z asarch: D'oh! I still was in the section "Multimethod" trying to figure out how to run that code... 2018-04-28T17:58:10Z jackdaniel: hjek: check out query 2018-04-28T17:58:18Z jackdaniel: I didn't paste code here for obvious reasons 2018-04-28T17:58:26Z fsmunoz joined #lisp 2018-04-28T17:59:02Z jackdaniel: you may have forgotten to call "pack" for instance 2018-04-28T17:59:18Z jackdaniel: or you didn't estabilish dynamic context by using with-ltk macro 2018-04-28T17:59:33Z hjek: even (ltktest) just shows up blank though...? 2018-04-28T18:00:16Z jackdaniel: and the thing I've pasted on query, if you type it in the repl – does it work? 2018-04-28T18:00:18Z hjek: and (ltk-eyes). the two examples. but will give 'pack' and 'query' a look 2018-04-28T18:00:25Z jackdaniel: it should show a button 2018-04-28T18:00:31Z beach` is now known as beach 2018-04-28T18:01:18Z hjek: jackdaniel: pasted on query (?). what's that? a code pasting channel? 2018-04-28T18:01:46Z hjek: ah ok i see, another window popped up! 2018-04-28T18:02:03Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:02:11Z hjek: ouch, i need to disable the smileys in pidgin. all the lisp code is just smiling faces 2018-04-28T18:02:23Z jackdaniel: on IRC you have channels (like #lisp) and direct messages 2018-04-28T18:02:39Z jackdaniel: which are sometimes called query 2018-04-28T18:03:04Z edgar-rft: hjek, Lisp was designed to make you smile :-) 2018-04-28T18:03:25Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T18:03:26Z hjek: jackdaniel: it shows a blank window 2018-04-28T18:03:36Z hjek: with the title LTK 2018-04-28T18:04:25Z jackdaniel: then there is something wrong with your system, but I can't tell what is wrong 2018-04-28T18:04:35Z jackdaniel: (as in: works for me) 2018-04-28T18:04:35Z hjek: oh actually, it was the :p in "(ltk:pack b)))" that was a smiley. so tcl is happy too 2018-04-28T18:05:22Z hjek: using newest ECL and LTK from quicklisp. any idea how to get information that would be useful for debugging / filing bug report? 2018-04-28T18:06:29Z thorondor[m]: I've fixed cl-cairo2 on ECL 2018-04-28T18:06:41Z jackdaniel: thorondor[m]: what was wrong? 2018-04-28T18:06:51Z jackdaniel: hjek: no, I don't know, but it works with ECL on my host 2018-04-28T18:07:01Z hjek: ah ok also on ECL. weird. 2018-04-28T18:07:15Z thorondor[m]: it was not ECL problem 2018-04-28T18:07:48Z jackdaniel: hjek: ops, my bad, it does not work on ECL 2018-04-28T18:07:52Z jackdaniel: it worked on sbcl though 2018-04-28T18:08:23Z jackdaniel: OK, so the problem is that ltk was never proted to ECL 2018-04-28T18:08:42Z thorondor[m]: jackdaniel: cl-cairo2 assumed that after calling (trivial-garbage:finalize ), was returned, but that was not the case for ECL 2018-04-28T18:08:48Z jackdaniel: it has some mop stuff for sbcl/cmu, but nothing for ecl 2018-04-28T18:09:01Z hjek: mop? 2018-04-28T18:09:14Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:09:22Z jackdaniel: metaobject protocol 2018-04-28T18:09:25Z hjek: ah 2018-04-28T18:09:57Z jackdaniel: well, it has run-program for ecl, but except that nothing 2018-04-28T18:10:27Z jackdaniel: either way it is most likely a bug in the library 2018-04-28T18:10:45Z jackdaniel: I'm not going to debug ltk beyond what I did until now though 2018-04-28T18:11:19Z hjek: cool, thanks 2018-04-28T18:11:40Z hjek: i know where to look now 2018-04-28T18:12:25Z Bike: thorondor[m]: the trivial-garbage documentation states that finalize returns the object. if it doesn't on ecl, that's a bug in trivial garbage, not cairo2. 2018-04-28T18:13:24Z thorondor[m]: oh. ok. 2018-04-28T18:14:36Z thorondor[m]: I'll make a ticket for trivial-garbage then. thanks 2018-04-28T18:14:46Z Bike: https://github.com/trivial-garbage/trivial-garbage/blob/master/trivial-garbage.lisp#L307-L313 ext:set-finalizer doesn't return the object i guess, so all you'd have to do is have the let return object 2018-04-28T18:14:48Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/re89.html does not say anything about the return value 2018-04-28T18:15:09Z jackdaniel: I know that page :) 2018-04-28T18:15:48Z JenElizabeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T18:15:51Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T18:16:02Z thorondor[m]: it is trivial to implement in trivial-garbage anyway. just return the passed object, regardless of the implementation specific finalizer implementation 2018-04-28T18:16:02Z phoe: jackdaniel: gasp 2018-04-28T18:16:38Z loli joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:21:16Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:23:30Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:24:27Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:26:53Z ealfonso: I was using one package (via (:use :lib1)) and decided to change to a different library lib2, so I removed lib1 from the :use list. now I'm getting a warning: "MY-PACKAGE also uses the following packages: lib1". how can I "un-use" a package? 2018-04-28T18:27:08Z Bike: clhs unuse-package 2018-04-28T18:27:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unuse_.htm 2018-04-28T18:27:08Z ealfonso: I tried (unexport nil (FIND-PACKAGE 'lib1)) (unexport 'lib1), etc, which didn't work 2018-04-28T18:27:23Z Bike: package redefinition is kind of egh though 2018-04-28T18:27:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: "it is trivial to implement in trivial-garbage" ha 2018-04-28T18:28:20Z ealfonso: Bike thanks, I should probably have thought of that. 2018-04-28T18:32:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-28T18:36:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:39:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T18:44:29Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: time for trivial-trivial 2018-04-28T18:45:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:46:06Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T18:48:09Z Arcaelyx joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:48:39Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:50:20Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-28T18:53:32Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:56:39Z hjek quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-28T18:58:32Z Naergon joined #lisp 2018-04-28T18:59:42Z AxelAlex joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:04:36Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:04:43Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:05:28Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:09:59Z phoe: gosh, I wrote over a thousand lines of markdown over the course of the last three days 2018-04-28T19:10:06Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:10:28Z phoe: and one of the worst things is that I'm enjoying it 2018-04-28T19:12:14Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:12:19Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T19:12:25Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:13:44Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:14:23Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:15:56Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:19:57Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:20:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:22:34Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T19:25:57Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:26:36Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:30:24Z fsmunoz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:30:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:30:55Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:36:14Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:40:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:41:42Z fourier` joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:42:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T19:45:05Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:45:50Z AxelAlex quit (Quit: AxelAlex) 2018-04-28T19:47:33Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-28T19:48:06Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T19:52:38Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T19:54:24Z ealfonso: anyone familiar with stefil know how to clear/delete previously defined tests in a suite? 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Also FIND-TEST is SETFable. So (setf (find-test 'my-test) nil) should work 2018-04-28T21:35:22Z PuercoPop: (you are using the hu.dwim.stefil version right?) 2018-04-28T21:37:11Z pfdietz_: Is there a CL test framework for property-based testing? That is, it allows descriptions of properties that some piece of software must have, and (separately) ways of generating inputs for the software. 2018-04-28T21:37:47Z PuercoPop: pfdietz_: there are two attempts 2018-04-28T21:38:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:38:35Z PuercoPop: (sec, I'm looking for the URL) 2018-04-28T21:38:54Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:39:14Z pierpal quit (Quit: Poof) 2018-04-28T21:39:19Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/check-it 2018-04-28T21:39:34Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:41:33Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:41:39Z pfdietz_: Hmm 2018-04-28T21:43:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:46:09Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:48:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:48:44Z v0|d joined #lisp 2018-04-28T21:53:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:55:34Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:56:39Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:58:49Z Hello_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T21:58:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:00:09Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T22:02:11Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-04-28T22:02:53Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:03:51Z nckx quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-28T22:04:21Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:05:29Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:08:10Z JenElizabeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:08:30Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:08:48Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:08:54Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:11:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:13:13Z ealfonso: when I saw an array returned from drakma:http-request, I thought it had interpreted the application/json content type and automatically parsed response JSON to an array... I was wrong. apparently I have to add the hack: (push (cons "application" "json") drakma:*text-content-types*) suggested here https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries 2018-04-28T22:21:22Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:24:28Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T22:26:52Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-28T22:28:37Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:28:49Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:32:01Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:37:02Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T22:39:53Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-28T22:40:50Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-28T22:41:43Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-28T22:45:28Z z3t0: ealfonso, you may find cl-json useful to convert that to a list 2018-04-28T22:46:13Z pfdietz_: That all made me not appreciate CL's punning of () and NIL. 2018-04-28T22:56:41Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:58:29Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T22:59:57Z fourier` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T23:02:18Z thuffir joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:02:27Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:03:24Z pierpa: I like CL's punning. The problem only occurs when interfacing with a format that chose a different set of punnings. 2018-04-28T23:03:59Z antoszka: What's a punning, pierpa? 2018-04-28T23:04:23Z pierpa: so, a naive mapping between the two doesn't work. Not a CL fault. 2018-04-28T23:04:42Z pierpa: it means something for two different purposes 2018-04-28T23:04:49Z pierpa: *something used 2018-04-28T23:05:15Z pierpa: (in this context) 2018-04-28T23:06:26Z pierpa: like nil being the empty list and the boolean false value 2018-04-28T23:06:55Z v0|d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-28T23:09:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:11:26Z antoszka: pierpa: tx 2018-04-28T23:11:29Z antoszka: thx* 2018-04-28T23:11:54Z thuffir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:12:49Z thuffir joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:13:29Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-28T23:14:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:16:41Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:18:18Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-28T23:19:44Z thuffir quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2018-04-28T23:23:29Z ebzzry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:28:11Z antoszka: Is there a reader macro out there for ingesting/operating on IP addresses written in decimal notation? (and keeping them internally as 32-bit integers as they are?) 2018-04-28T23:28:27Z antoszka: I'd rather not have to enter them as strings and convert manually. 2018-04-28T23:28:59Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:29:58Z Bike: not that i'm aware of. i think socket libraries tend to use vectors as addresses, but i could be wrong 2018-04-28T23:30:01Z Bike: so like #(127 0 0 1) 2018-04-28T23:30:34Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:32:02Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:32:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:32:58Z antoszka: Bike: oh, okay, any particular socket library you have in mind? Do you think it'd be useful to write a macro like this? 2018-04-28T23:33:14Z antoszka: I could try creating a library for that. 2018-04-28T23:33:48Z Bike: sb-bsd-sockets 2018-04-28T23:34:07Z Bike: e.g. (sb-bsd-sockets:host-ent-address (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com")) => #(172 217 3 110) 2018-04-28T23:34:23Z antoszka: thx 2018-04-28T23:34:27Z antoszka: guess that's not bad 2018-04-28T23:34:30Z Bike: tho it's actually a ub8 vector, not a general vector 2018-04-28T23:34:38Z antoszka: still, that works 2018-04-28T23:34:47Z Bike: as for a reader macro, id on't know, i don't deal with that kind of stuff much, but i thought hardcoded ip addresses weren't common 2018-04-28T23:34:49Z antoszka: wonder if ipv6 is supported 2018-04-28T23:35:23Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:35:30Z antoszka: that'd actually be non-trivial for a reader macro (and probably fun to code) 2018-04-28T23:35:38Z ebzzry joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:36:28Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:36:45Z Bike: let's see, on sbcl gethostbyname actually returns two values, and the second is v6 2018-04-28T23:36:59Z Bike: #(38 7 248 176 64 6 8 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 32 14) 2018-04-28T23:38:07Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:39:33Z detectiveaoi joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:40:07Z antoszka: it does, in fact :) 2018-04-28T23:40:40Z Hello_ joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:42:25Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:45:22Z Guest36608 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:48:22Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:48:35Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-28T23:53:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:53:50Z pierpa: There's only a finite number of characters, and very few of them are usable easily. I wouldn't waste one for this macro. And the convenience would be infinitesimal anyway. 2018-04-28T23:54:34Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:56:57Z antoszka: Yeah, seems most of the useful code is there already in sb-bsd-sockets. 2018-04-28T23:57:30Z borei left #lisp 2018-04-28T23:57:47Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-28T23:58:53Z Bike: despite the name, the interface is also usable on ecl and maybe other implementations 2018-04-29T00:01:04Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:01:28Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:01:50Z pjb: pierpa: notice that with emacs, you can easily bind any unicode character to an easy key or key-chord. 2018-04-29T00:01:58Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:02:00Z pjb: So the convenience can be as high as you want. 2018-04-29T00:03:02Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:03:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:04:21Z pjb: pierpa: of course, with emacs, you can also have the convenience the other way: display a long-name as a single unicode character (with the compose operator, see eg. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyLambda 2018-04-29T00:07:43Z Josh_2: How do I use sb-concurrency? 2018-04-29T00:08:03Z pierpa: pjb: that's REALLY not easily accessible. 2018-04-29T00:08:59Z Josh_2: It's listed in the SBCL 1.4.6 manual but it isn't being recognized by the SBCL I'm using atm 2018-04-29T00:10:24Z Josh_2: Wait I got it 2018-04-29T00:10:32Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:11:23Z Josh_2: fyi gotta use (require :sb-concurrency) :D 2018-04-29T00:12:27Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:18:59Z antoszka: pierpa: guess I can see one piece missing, there are make-inet{,6}-address functions for parsing the string, but there are no equivalent print functions, maybe that could use some work. 2018-04-29T00:19:30Z antoszka: And having both pairs I could create a very thin reader macro on top of those. 2018-04-29T00:19:31Z pierpa: antoszka: wrong name :) 2018-04-29T00:19:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:19:56Z antoszka: Well, you and Bike :) 2018-04-29T00:20:02Z pierpa: :) 2018-04-29T00:20:41Z antoszka: Anyway, have to get on the plane now, talk to you later guys (hopefully :)) 2018-04-29T00:20:57Z pierpa: fly well 2018-04-29T00:21:01Z antoszka: ty 2018-04-29T00:21:43Z JohanP quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T00:24:22Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:26:27Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:26:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:29:34Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:33:04Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:37:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:37:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:38:21Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:40:25Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:40:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:42:13Z zachk quit (Quit: night) 2018-04-29T00:43:01Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:47:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T00:48:01Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:55:14Z ealfonso: I have N long-running threads performing some work. occasionally I'd like to peek into the current state of the work from an event-driven thread. I've thought about having each thread write to a global hash table but is there a better way? 2018-04-29T00:55:26Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-29T00:56:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T00:57:13Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T00:58:34Z ealfonso: the event requires the long-running thread to stop, compute an serializable state object, then continue altering the state 2018-04-29T01:02:39Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:13:28Z d4ryus2 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:16:27Z d4ryus1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T01:19:53Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:21:02Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:22:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:22:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T01:24:59Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T01:29:59Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-29T01:33:42Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:33:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T01:36:58Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T01:37:07Z dtornabene quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T01:37:21Z dtornabene joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:38:51Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T01:42:20Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:45:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:47:05Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T01:58:02Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T01:58:23Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-29T01:59:50Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Alla prossima volta) 2018-04-29T02:02:09Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:02:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:13:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:15:19Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:18:35Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:20:10Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:37:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:40:32Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T02:46:00Z v0|d joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:47:45Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:48:39Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:49:23Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:50:39Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:53:21Z Kundry_W_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T02:55:29Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:56:43Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:59:57Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T02:59:59Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T03:01:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T03:03:02Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:06:40Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:10:25Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T03:11:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T03:12:24Z jibanes joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:14:04Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-29T03:26:51Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:27:43Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:31:09Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T03:31:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T03:32:46Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T03:33:42Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:34:00Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T03:34:27Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-29T03:36:29Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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FIVEAM:MAKE-FIXTURE and FIVEAM:MAKE-TEST are exported symbols but have no definition. 2018-04-29T05:30:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:36:33Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T05:37:35Z phoe: Xach: are you able to post some fresh download statistics for Quicklisp? 2018-04-29T05:38:51Z phoe: Though, hm, the last ones are from two months ago. They are fresh enough for me. 2018-04-29T05:39:35Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:40:49Z SlowJimmy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T05:45:37Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:45:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:52:34Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:56:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-29T05:57:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T05:58:36Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-29T05:59:09Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:01:15Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:02:14Z blurgh joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:02:58Z blurgh: Would Lisp being tree-based instead of list-based remove the need for CDR coding and other tricks to get it to run on bare metal? 2018-04-29T06:03:30Z beach: CDR coding is not required in order for Lisp to run on bare metal. 2018-04-29T06:03:32Z aeth: s-expressions *are* trees and afaik no modern implementation bothers with CDR coding 2018-04-29T06:03:55Z beach: blurgh: Nor any other particular tricks for that matter. 2018-04-29T06:04:10Z blurgh: beach: Right, but Lisp Machines did it to make it tolerably fast, didn't they? 2018-04-29T06:04:17Z beach: blurgh: No. 2018-04-29T06:04:24Z beach: blurgh: They did it to save memory. 2018-04-29T06:04:34Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:04:37Z beach: blurgh: Things like that are no longer needed. 2018-04-29T06:04:37Z phoe: blurgh: Mezzano runs fast enough on bare metal 2018-04-29T06:04:53Z reverse_light quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:04:59Z beach: blurgh: There are at least two systems that run on bare metal. Mezzano and Movitz. 2018-04-29T06:05:16Z blurgh: beach: Movitz is dead, isn't it? 2018-04-29T06:05:18Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:05:35Z beach: blurgh: It still shows that Common Lisp can run on bare metal. 2018-04-29T06:05:41Z beach: blurgh: Modern processors are perfectly capable of running Common Lisp perfectly well. 2018-04-29T06:06:11Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T06:06:16Z johnvonneumann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T06:06:29Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:07:12Z blurgh: beach: True, but they're not designed for it. Technically, you could run a truely foreign language like Clean or something based on cellular automata, but would that yield appreciable speed? (OK, maybe Clean would be fast on bare metal given how fast it is already) 2018-04-29T06:07:38Z phoe: Define "designed for it" 2018-04-29T06:07:50Z beach: blurgh: SBCL is capable of generating very fast native code. I don't know where you get the idea that this is not possible. 2018-04-29T06:08:18Z phoe: They aren't designed for running Java either which doesn't prevent it from flourishing on x86_64 and more and more optimizations making its way into the JVM all the time 2018-04-29T06:08:30Z beach: blurgh: Furthermore, there is nothing special about running on bare metal. The same code generator can be used, with only minor modifications. 2018-04-29T06:09:26Z phoe: Has anybody picked up LET-PLUS from its unmaintainedness? 2018-04-29T06:09:27Z beach: blurgh: Or, perhaps by "bare metal" you don't mean "without any operating system", and instead you mean "running native code"? 2018-04-29T06:10:02Z beach: blurgh: If so, then it is already done, and has been for decades. Most modern Common Lisp system generate native code on the fly. 2018-04-29T06:10:23Z blurgh: phoe: C maps 1-to-1 to a Von Neumann architecture computer with a single core. Even if it's a lie now (multiple cores, parallel stuff, etc), it's still faster than any other language. Lisp can come close to C's speed, but can match it only with judicious use of "call 'dissasemble', optimize by hand". 2018-04-29T06:10:42Z blurgh: That's critical for things like context switches. 2018-04-29T06:11:07Z beach: blurgh: Where on earth did you get ideas like this? 2018-04-29T06:11:43Z beach: blurgh: Can you show us some reference to the claim that Common Lisp "can match it only with judicious use of "call 'dissasemble', optimize by hand"? 2018-04-29T06:11:51Z blurgh: beach: messing around with it, every single benchmark I've ever seen. Lisp /is/ fast, but it's not C. 2018-04-29T06:11:56Z phoe: Sure thing, but raw machine speed at all costs, including programmer time, debugging convenience, no introspection and memory unsafety isn't what I'm after. 2018-04-29T06:11:56Z aeth: blurgh: It's easier to write an optimized compiler than to write hardware optimized for a language. So lisp machines arw forever dead, but Lisp runs well on modern architectures without a big mismatch 2018-04-29T06:12:01Z beach: blurgh: You are terribly confused. 2018-04-29T06:12:21Z blurgh: beach: look at the computer language shootout. 2018-04-29T06:12:32Z beach: blurgh: You are making claims about the possibilities, but you only look at existing implementation. 2018-04-29T06:12:55Z aeth: blurgh: C is fast because tons of money goes into C compilers and because C design chooses a low memory overhead and fast execution speed over literally everything else, including nice things like some degree of safety 2018-04-29T06:13:28Z aeth: In theory, a CL compiler that had as much attention could be as fast with (safety 0) 2018-04-29T06:13:39Z aeth: Or at least close enough 2018-04-29T06:13:43Z beach: blurgh: Furthermore, different languages are good for different things. Try using C for something that requires a lot of memory allocation, and you will see that malloc()/free() is much slower than any modern garbage collector. 2018-04-29T06:14:17Z aeth: blurgh: Pretty much the only necessary overhead CL is going to have is the GC 2018-04-29T06:14:23Z blurgh: beach: of course calling disassemble and then optimizing it will result in faster code. Doing this automatically at runtime with a JIT is why Julia is frequently as fast as C. aeth: yes, that's probably true. Stuff like bignums are expensive, but the Right Thing nevertheless. 2018-04-29T06:14:55Z blurgh: beach: I love Lisp and think it is a lot better than C. 2018-04-29T06:16:30Z beach: blurgh: Good. Then you should know that for programs that do roughly the same things in C and Common Lisp, then the speed is also comparable. The problem is that most programs don't do the same thing. 2018-04-29T06:16:35Z eli_oat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:18:38Z aeth: blurgh: CL doesn't need to be JITed to be efficient, except for maybe CLOS dispatch 2018-04-29T06:19:11Z blurgh: beach: Then why is it consistently slower in the Language Shootout and blog post tests? 2018-04-29T06:19:21Z blurgh: http://jng.imagine27.com/index.php/2009-05-03-195227_i_want_to_believe_in_lisp_performance.html 2018-04-29T06:19:37Z jackdaniel: you can write code fast in Common Lisp and you can write fast code in Common Lisp 2018-04-29T06:19:45Z jackdaniel: doing both at the same time is easy 2018-04-29T06:19:53Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:19:59Z aeth: blurgh: $$$ 2018-04-29T06:20:30Z aeth: You can make any language fast with enough money. And what will get the money? Languages used by the industry. 2018-04-29T06:21:00Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T06:21:17Z aeth: (The amount of money will vary based on the language, but getting good performance out of CL is probably easier than with JS.) 2018-04-29T06:21:21Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:21:34Z jackdaniel: blurgh: looking at these charts CL *is* comparable in speed with C albeit slower 2018-04-29T06:21:36Z beach: blurgh: I already told you at least two reasons. A typical Common Lisp program will do more things than a C program because most C compilers exploit the fact that the standard allows them to elide things like boundary checks, whereas most Common Lisp compilers generate checks for such things. 2018-04-29T06:21:37Z beach: Furthermore, as I told you, the fact that Common Lisp is capable of being as fast, doesn't mean that current implementations (that are maintained by volunteers instead of by big corporations) live up to that capability. 2018-04-29T06:21:55Z jackdaniel: some adventages become obvious only after program goes above some complexity level 2018-04-29T06:22:13Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:22:14Z jackdaniel: and it is easier to write fast maintainable non-trivial program in CL than in C 2018-04-29T06:22:16Z beach: blurgh: Again, you look at existing implementations, but you make claims about what is possible for the language as such. 2018-04-29T06:22:22Z jackdaniel: (in my personal opinion ;) 2018-04-29T06:23:20Z jackdaniel: and keep in mind, that I *do* like C for its simplicity and I use it actively ;) 2018-04-29T06:23:57Z aeth: Simplicity? 2018-04-29T06:24:26Z jackdaniel: yes 2018-04-29T06:24:27Z aeth: I like CL for its simplicity, but I guess I prefer syntactic simplicity 2018-04-29T06:24:38Z cess11_: What is "speed"? For whom is numbercrunching throughput the only interesting metric? 2018-04-29T06:24:39Z aeth: C is complicated. -> is an abomination 2018-04-29T06:24:47Z beach: blurgh: The real question here is whether it is worth programming in C where the programs are vulnerable to various attacks just to gain a bit of performance, or whether you prefer safe code to make you as a programmer more productive at the cost of a little more execution time. 2018-04-29T06:24:59Z aeth: cess11_: CL is actually a decent Fortran these days. 2018-04-29T06:25:01Z blurgh: jackdaniel: Yes, it is fast. Being within an order of magnitude of C is very impressive for any language. aeth: That's probably true. Nevertheless, Clean is faster than SBCL and only slightly slower than C, while being a rather general language implementation. STALIN and MLton both beat C, but are impractical. What structural features could be improved in Lisp? 2018-04-29T06:25:12Z aeth: CL has decent numerical optimizations. 2018-04-29T06:25:26Z beach: blurgh: Maybe you are just embarrassed about the language shootout? Did someone confront you with it, and you were unable to defend yourself? 2018-04-29T06:25:59Z aeth: blurgh: That benchmark isn't some objective measure of speed 2018-04-29T06:26:27Z blurgh: beach: C is unacceptable as a language for serious projects. That's why Lisp needs to be improved. And no, I'm just mulling over things. I've written my own Scheme and have generally been thinking about doing something new. 2018-04-29T06:26:28Z beach: blurgh: There are no improvements to Common Lisp required. What we need is more people to improve existing implementations. You keep confusing language and implementation. Maybe I am not being clear enough on that point? 2018-04-29T06:26:40Z aeth: (And some benchmarks are really just tests of FFI into fast C or Fortran libraries!) 2018-04-29T06:27:16Z beach: blurgh: I don't see why you conclude that Common Lisp needs to be improved. 2018-04-29T06:27:33Z aeth: blurgh: A CL implementation needs a quality real-time GC imo. 2018-04-29T06:28:12Z jackdaniel: blurgh: it is covered in one of PG essays – CL has numerous orthogonal features (which are gradually adopted to other languages as well; except maybe macros which are hard for non-sexp syntax) – the structural adventage is that these features support each other and may be used to improve the program 2018-04-29T06:28:16Z beach: blurgh: You seem to be convinced that Common Lisp needs to be improved, and that is what you also started by saying (tree based instead of list based, whatever that means), but there is no evidence to support this claim. 2018-04-29T06:28:18Z blurgh: beach: A lot of admirable work has been done in Common Lisp. It's something of a sum of what's been tried and what's failed in Lisp over the years. 2018-04-29T06:28:24Z cess11_: blurgh: So drivers and kernels and compilers aren't serious. 2018-04-29T06:28:42Z phoe goes to make some tea 2018-04-29T06:28:47Z cess11_: I look forward to your future achievements, I'm sure you will revolutionise computing science. 2018-04-29T06:28:52Z jackdaniel: in other languages, where you adopt some feature, it often feels off in it – it may be not well suited for it 2018-04-29T06:29:44Z jackdaniel: regarding improving Common Lisp – I wouldn't mind if remove-if-not had disappeared ;-) 2018-04-29T06:29:58Z beach: I would. :) 2018-04-29T06:30:17Z blurgh: beach: a tree-based language would be Refal. That's a weird one. 2018-04-29T06:31:40Z aeth: jackdaniel: Removing #'remove-if-not requires #'remove-if with #'complement to be optimized 2018-04-29T06:31:56Z aeth: Otherwise you're giving up performance 2018-04-29T06:33:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:33:30Z jackdaniel: I hoped that ";-)" will indicate a joke – removing a single symbol from CL standard wouldn't give us anything except rendering wide range of programs invalid 2018-04-29T06:34:10Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:34:19Z beach: blurgh: Can you define what you mean by a "list-based language" and a "tree-based language". The only thing that is "list based" in Common Lisp is the representation of source code, and that has absolutely no impact on the performance of the generated code. 2018-04-29T06:34:29Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:34:32Z aeth: jackdaniel: However, removing my list of 54 symbols would give us something. 2018-04-29T06:34:35Z aeth: /s 2018-04-29T06:35:44Z aeth: blurgh: Lisp isn't LISt Processing these days. It has arrays, structs, CLOS objects, hash-tables, first class functions, etc. 2018-04-29T06:36:24Z aeth: If you primarily use lists, that might be why you think Lisp is slow. Lists are... slow in Lisp. (Doesn't really matter if it's done at compile time with macros, though. Still compiles way faster than C++) 2018-04-29T06:36:27Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:36:52Z aeth: You're not supposed to use lists for everything, which is why they're very straightforward without clever optimizations 2018-04-29T06:37:12Z jackdaniel: blurgh: regarding structural differences: http://paulgraham.com/diff.html ; while PG doesn't like CL anymore many of his essays are good (he is a good writer) 2018-04-29T06:37:21Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:37:45Z jackdaniel: "revenge of the nerds" has all these points listed in a more elaborate manner I think 2018-04-29T06:38:13Z aeth: I disagree. I liked his essays back in the day (2012 or so?) but I don't agree with many now. 2018-04-29T06:38:40Z aeth: There are some good ones, though, like http://paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html 2018-04-29T06:38:41Z blurgh: jackdaniel: I've read all of his essays. That's part of what got me into Lisp. 2018-04-29T06:38:47Z jackdaniel: so lets agree to disagree, getting back to my hacking :-) 2018-04-29T06:38:56Z jackdaniel: blurgh: cool :) 2018-04-29T06:39:23Z aeth: oh wait, diff is it 2018-04-29T06:39:34Z aeth: I thought it was called Roots of Lisp 2018-04-29T06:39:41Z aeth: Terrible URL system 2018-04-29T06:39:57Z lyding quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:41:56Z blurgh: aeth: I know it has other features. Take a look at Refal. Between supercompilation and efficient term-rewriting, it's apparently always been very fast. It's something like a '60s Haskell that ended up on the wrong side of the Cold War. 2018-04-29T06:42:37Z beach: blurgh: So you are just not going to address the issues with you opinion, nor answer the question we asked, and just keep claiming that Common Lisp needs to be improved in order for compilers to be able to generate fast code? 2018-04-29T06:43:29Z aeth: blurgh: The core of CL is very efficient. Basic CL is just a bunch of thin macros on top of tagbody and go. It's... very close to how the hardware works. 2018-04-29T06:43:47Z blurgh: Really? 2018-04-29T06:44:15Z aeth: loop obscures it a bit more than the other ways to iterate, but dotimes and do are very straightforward if you macroexpand them. 2018-04-29T06:44:19Z jackdaniel: aeth: this is nonsense (sorry to say that out loud) 2018-04-29T06:44:45Z aeth: s/very close to how the hardware works/very close to how the assembly language pretends the hardware works/ 2018-04-29T06:44:48Z aeth: I guess :-p 2018-04-29T06:46:39Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:46:57Z blurgh: beach: What question? Why I'm asking this? I showed you 2 straight-up tests, and you said it was as fast as C. I said that it was within an order of magnitude (and that's still very good! It's akin to Java, which has had a lot more work put in) and only matches it with manual trial-and-error optimization. 2018-04-29T06:47:24Z beach: blurgh: Can you define what you mean by a "list-based language" and a "tree-based language". 2018-04-29T06:47:32Z cess11_: Java is a mess. 2018-04-29T06:47:49Z beach: blurgh: That's what I was asking you. 2018-04-29T06:48:27Z cess11_: beach: They mean that building a list from both ends at the same time matters in program efficiency post-seventies, I think. 2018-04-29T06:49:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:49:19Z beach: cess11_: I am specifically asking about the LANGUAGE, i.e. what it means for a LANGUAGE to be list based or tree based. 2018-04-29T06:49:19Z aeth: blurgh: Optimizing a modern CL AOT-compiled implementation is pretty straightfoward, actually. What fools the type inference is some built-in type-generic functions (not CLOS generic) for sequences and numbers like #'map and #'+ because for the rest, the compiler can usually infer that it's going to either be that type or an error (e.g. #'car or #'maphash) 2018-04-29T06:49:49Z aeth: blurgh: So when you use something like #'map or #'+, you're probably going to have to declare the type (or, more portably, use check-type) to make sure that the compiler has the information that it needs. 2018-04-29T06:50:05Z cess11_: Yeah, and I don't think they have any idea what -based could mean. 2018-04-29T06:50:22Z aeth: Oh, and arrays have an additional slowness of bounds-checking that can sometimes be avoided if the full type (which includes the length) is given. 2018-04-29T06:50:23Z blurgh: beach: a tree-based language is one like Refal - the basic structure is a list which can be built from both ends and pattern-matched down to be reduced by partial evaluation. 2018-04-29T06:51:19Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T06:51:32Z blurgh: beach: basically, the compiler already knows the properties of whatever's in the tree beneath a root expression and can optimize from there. There's also the Lorax language (experimental, idk if you can find the paper) which does something similar to generate efficient code. 2018-04-29T06:51:34Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:51:35Z beach: blurgh: And what makes you think that Common Lisp is "list based" then? More specifically, why do you think the fact that it is "list based" has an impact on performance? Also, what makes you think that it is not possible to use such a data structure in Common Lisp, should that be required? 2018-04-29T06:52:20Z beach: blurgh: So now you are talking about the performance of the compiler? As opposed to the performance of the code generated by it? 2018-04-29T06:53:30Z lyding joined #lisp 2018-04-29T06:53:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T06:53:38Z blurgh: beach: In Lisp, you can have a list with a hashtable symbol, a tree symbol, and a graph symbol. Nevertheless, you still have to traverse it with car and cdr ultimately. It makes it much harder to optimize things away, like how many purely functional data structures can be built from finger trees and reduced to a common representation. 2018-04-29T06:54:11Z beach: blurgh: What on earth makes you think that one HAS TO program with lists in Common Lisp? 2018-04-29T06:54:20Z aeth: blurgh: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/3b9118cc853f5adfed691f50a8537b7687c2509b/util/util.lisp#L308-360 2018-04-29T06:54:40Z beach: blurgh: Do you seriously believe that the EXISTENCE of lists in Common Lisp determined the result of the language shootout? 2018-04-29T06:55:11Z jackdaniel: blurgh: you have just presented a very uneducated opinion regarding Common Lisp 2018-04-29T06:55:12Z aeth: blurgh: The typed lists are actually a bit slower, though. Maybe 20% or so. 2018-04-29T06:55:43Z aeth: You could probably make a typed cons (for trees) similarly out of that typed list macro fairly easily. 2018-04-29T06:55:46Z blurgh: beach: basically, alpha equivalence matters is all I'm saying. That allows a lot of funky optimization-by-substitution. Part of the reason why the fastest high-level languages are purely functional is becausing being purely functional lets you close the gap a little more. 2018-04-29T06:56:16Z blurgh: because it simplifies things for the compiler. Being tree based takes that further. 2018-04-29T06:56:22Z aeth: blurgh: Purely functional programming languages are going to be *slower* unless you're dealing with threads, afaik. 2018-04-29T06:56:36Z beach: blurgh: No, that is not all you are saying. You make sweeping claims that you then are unable to support by evidence, and not even by reasoning. 2018-04-29T06:57:06Z aeth: blurgh: Or at least enough people didn't buy into functional programming until multithreading took off. 2018-04-29T06:57:23Z White_Flame: aeth: In theory, a function language with a Sufficiently Advanced Compiler could convert things to mutating behind the scenes and achieve comparable speed 2018-04-29T06:57:28Z White_Flame: *functional 2018-04-29T06:58:13Z White_Flame: but really, those sorts of optimizations tend to happen at the application level, not the language level, so such a compiler concept is pretty out there 2018-04-29T06:58:13Z blurgh: aeth: Not true. Implicit parallelism is nice, but by that point, you might as well use C because parallel computations are all about C. The real killer is graph reduction (or closure reduction, which is what I've heard Haskell's STG uses). White_Flame: That's exactly my point. In fact, it's been done before in the '80s. It just required special hardware. 2018-04-29T06:58:30Z aeth: White_Flame: Yes, and they can for some things, but not for all things. For instance, you probably can't use a functional programming language for gamedev in 2018, even though in theory nothing's stopping you... because game architectures have enough unique requirements that not all of the smart compiler optimizations are there. 2018-04-29T06:58:35Z cess11_: C is a high level language. It has loops, variables, &c. 2018-04-29T06:58:48Z blurgh: are all about wrenching out that last bit of speed* 2018-04-29T06:59:05Z aeth: Anyway, nothing's stopping you from making a purely functional language *in* CL, afaik. 2018-04-29T06:59:12Z aeth: Macros are that powerful. 2018-04-29T06:59:29Z White_Flame: blurgh: well, you did say that functional programmling languages are the fastest, so shouldn't "that last bit of speed" already be considered? ;) 2018-04-29T06:59:42Z aeth: cess11_: It's the lowest of the high 2018-04-29T06:59:52Z blurgh: cess11_: I never made a claim to the contrary. PG talks about how Lisp proves Turing-completeness doesn't mean equality. 2018-04-29T07:00:05Z aeth: cess11_: Although I think the dividing line is whether or not you're working with registers. 2018-04-29T07:01:04Z aeth: blurgh: CL's cons and list are not optimized. That doesn't stop you from writing optimized functional lists/trees in CL... probably using structs if you really want maximum performance. 2018-04-29T07:01:10Z White_Flame: if FP languages truly are the fastest, then game programming would have embraced them 100% 2018-04-29T07:01:19Z blurgh: aeth: You're right. You could even make Haskell in Common Lisp; I think the earliest implementations might have been that. Does Haskell have macros? Does it have even half the flexibility of Lisp? Is there anything like SLIME for it? 2018-04-29T07:01:25Z aeth: White_Flame: Well, I said why they don't. They have specific needs. 2018-04-29T07:01:26Z cess11_: blurgh: You'll need to decide whether you believe 'C is the fastest' or 'the fastest are the functional languages'. 2018-04-29T07:02:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:02:17Z blurgh: White_Flame cess11_: I take them as examples of fast high-level languages. Even they're usually 2-3x slower than C on stock hardware. 2018-04-29T07:02:35Z aeth: blurgh: Well, you can make a language like Haskell or like Python or like Java or whatevever in CL. Actually making an implementation of a specified language in CL, even Scheme, is going to cause problems when there are mismatches (e.g. Scheme has a separate #f and '() while CL doesn't) 2018-04-29T07:02:37Z White_Flame: "Part of the reason why the fastest high-level languages are purely functional..." 2018-04-29T07:03:13Z blurgh: White_Flame: I should have specified "very high level". C does straddle the line. 2018-04-29T07:03:15Z White_Flame: FP compilers, while they are a lot smarter now than they used to be, aren't going to compete for general purpose complexity 2018-04-29T07:03:18Z blurgh: my mistake. 2018-04-29T07:03:35Z White_Flame: because as I mentioned, they don't have access to the level of abstraction necessary 2018-04-29T07:03:48Z aeth: blurgh: That's circular because very high level is functional 2018-04-29T07:04:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:04:04Z aeth: (or some other form of declarative) 2018-04-29T07:05:00Z asarch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T07:05:01Z cess11_: I'm still wondering to whom numbercrunching throughput is the only interesting metric. In my experience only those who never write code think it is but I'm sort of a loner amateur. 2018-04-29T07:05:01Z blurgh: White_Flame: Yes, they do. Haskell is just extraordinarily poorly implemented (monadic IO is an awful idea that should have been replaced by either FRP or uniqueness typing). They all make compromises where they shouldn't. 2018-04-29T07:05:44Z jackdaniel: I think we got into offtopic – please move it to #lispcafe which is better suited for such disputes 2018-04-29T07:05:57Z White_Flame: well, you seem to have a hammer that you think will nail the world's problems, without a lot of nuance or breadth... 2018-04-29T07:06:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T07:06:39Z blurgh: cess11_: I'd really like to see a competitive operating system in a high level language. That requires speed. 2018-04-29T07:06:41Z White_Flame: and even where there are a lot of FP-in-Lisp programmers here, you're not getting a lot of purcfhase 2018-04-29T07:06:44Z White_Flame: *purchase 2018-04-29T07:07:12Z aeth: blurgh: CL is a practical language. By the early 90s, the Lisp split was pretty clear between the practical/industrial CL and the research-focused, academic Scheme 2018-04-29T07:07:30Z aeth: Language features added to CL should solve practical problem.s 2018-04-29T07:07:37Z cess11_: blurgh: All the popular OS:es are developed in high level languages. 2018-04-29T07:08:12Z blurgh: aeth: I suppose you're right. Sorry about bugging you. cess11_: Do I have to say VHLL every time? lol 2018-04-29T07:08:22Z aeth: cess11_: blurgh means "very high level language", which depending on who you ask either means Prolog/Haskell/etc. or... anything higher level than C++ (anything with a garbage collector?) 2018-04-29T07:09:02Z cess11_: But I'm all ears, what is the competition you want to tackle with your high performance CL OS? Windows servers? MacOS laptops? Fuchsia phones of tomorrow? 2018-04-29T07:09:31Z aeth: blurgh: VHLL looks lke VHDL, which isn't a VHLL ;-p 2018-04-29T07:10:12Z blurgh: aeth: by the time you get to the level of Java, is it worth using anything other than Lisp from a purity standpoint? cess11_: I'd really like to see an alternative to Fuchsia. It looks like a lot more of the "same old, same old" Unix mantras which have led to disastrous hacks and failures. 2018-04-29T07:10:39Z White_Flame: define "purity standpoint" 2018-04-29T07:10:48Z aeth: blurgh: The answer is, unfortunately, always libraries and size of the development community. Combined that saves a ton of work, probably more than the greatest language can save you. 2018-04-29T07:11:02Z blurgh: White_Flame: If pointy-headed bosses didn't exist and we had all the libraries we wanted. 2018-04-29T07:11:06Z aeth: CL is probably the best language for solo projects where a lot of things are written from scratch. That... is not a common thing these days. 2018-04-29T07:11:46Z cess11_: blurgh: What parts of the Fuchsia project looks like a Unix to you? 2018-04-29T07:12:06Z aeth: Oh, and this is probably why pg is counter-productive. If you only care about productivity, you *won't* use Lisp, which... is kind of selling people the wrong thing. 2018-04-29T07:12:11Z blurgh: cess11_: It's written in C++. No-no. 2018-04-29T07:12:23Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:12:40Z aeth: s/which... is/which... means he is/ 2018-04-29T07:12:41Z cess11_: blurgh: What Unix systems are written in C++? 2018-04-29T07:12:50Z jackdaniel: once again: please move this discussion to #lispcafe, it is offtopic and noisy 2018-04-29T07:12:56Z cess11_: Sorry. 2018-04-29T07:12:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T07:13:06Z blurgh: Sorry 2018-04-29T07:13:18Z jackdaniel: no problem, thank you for your understanding :) 2018-04-29T07:13:31Z JuanDaugherty agrees but notes that there really isn't a diff these days, same compiler normally 2018-04-29T07:14:00Z aeth: This is getting really off-topic but afaik only Linux had the strict no-C++ policy. 2018-04-29T07:14:26Z phoe puts aeth in #lispcafe and makes him some coffee 2018-04-29T07:14:57Z raskin[m] joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:15:23Z JuanDaugherty has some black beans and tuna and notes yeah it won't work with the kernel build 2018-04-29T07:16:57Z phoe: Xach: is it possible to get download statistics for the lesser-downloaded Quicklisp projects as well? http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/03/download-stats-for-february-2018.html ends at CL-ANSI-TEXT and I'd like to see some other things that are below it. 2018-04-29T07:17:17Z JuanDaugherty: as far as lisp is concerned there was doubtless something interfacing with CLOS before OOP became declasse 2018-04-29T07:17:33Z JuanDaugherty: some doltish corba thing oder 2018-04-29T07:18:09Z beach: JuanDaugherty: There were a few message-passing systems that were candidates. 2018-04-29T07:18:33Z JuanDaugherty: beach, aye 2018-04-29T07:22:06Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:22:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T07:23:34Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:23:41Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T07:25:18Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T07:30:21Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T07:30:21Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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2018-04-29T09:08:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:12:59Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:14:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:14:51Z ealfonso` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:15:18Z thinkpad quit (Quit: lawl) 2018-04-29T09:16:23Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T09:17:04Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:17:14Z energizer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T09:17:26Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:17:33Z makomo: just found this, wow :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvU3pJbZBj0 2018-04-29T09:20:02Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:20:12Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:21:05Z beach: Nice music. 2018-04-29T09:24:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:25:35Z makomo: and people :-). it's nice to see everyone together having fun, pretty cool 2018-04-29T09:25:47Z glv joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:25:49Z makomo: at 4:30 steele is taking a nap haha 2018-04-29T09:26:09Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:26:44Z blep-on-external: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCuZkaaou0Q 2018-04-29T09:26:44Z blep-on-external: "don't you think it's ironic people talk about static typing in a weakly [sic] typed language?" 2018-04-29T09:28:01Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:28:59Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:30:28Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:30:51Z beach: makomo: That's a bunch of very smart and very knowledgeable people. That's why I get mildly irritated when some ignorant newbie comes here with claims that are silly and untrue, suggesting changes to the language based on false presumptions and false mental models of how things work. 2018-04-29T09:31:03Z makomo: blep-on-external: that was a good talk 2018-04-29T09:32:45Z Bindler quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:33:03Z beach: blep-on-external: It's a war of words. The words "strong" and "weak" have an immediate psychological impact on programmers and decision makers. Therefore, the functional-programming crowd uses "strong" for what they do and "weak" for what we do. We counter by calling it "dynamic" for what we do and "static" for what they do. These words, have the opposite connotations. 2018-04-29T09:33:23Z makomo: beach: i completely agree and understand. i think learning common lisp was one of the best decision in my life, not only because of the language itself, but because of the whole history behind it 2018-04-29T09:33:23Z blep-on-external: fair enough 2018-04-29T09:33:49Z blep-on-external: i'm used to strong/weak being "can i make some value a garbage other value, like C casting?" 2018-04-29T09:33:58Z makomo: beach: all these papers, stories, posts, etc., truly a goldmine. newbs will be newbs though :^( 2018-04-29T09:34:09Z blep-on-external: static/dynamic to me is "can i pass different types to a function?" 2018-04-29T09:34:10Z beach: makomo: I agree. 2018-04-29T09:34:25Z makomo: but i can say i'm slowly spreading lisp around the people i know :-) 2018-04-29T09:34:26Z blep-on-external: eg the Haskell [YourTypeHere] is static, a Lisp cons is dynamic 2018-04-29T09:35:06Z blep-on-external: also i think Lisp is still a fantastic FP language -- partly cause it lets you write imperative code easily when needed and still keeping good style 2018-04-29T09:35:15Z beach: blep-on-external: You will notice this war of words in other contexts too. Scheme, for instance, calls the macro system "hygienic", implicitly categorizing that of Common Lisp as "dirty" or "unhygienic". 2018-04-29T09:35:31Z pjb: blep-on-external: lisp is still a fantastic OO language. 2018-04-29T09:35:52Z pjb: blep-on-external: lisp is still a fantastic declarative language. 2018-04-29T09:35:58Z pjb: blep-on-external: lisp is still a fantastic logic language. 2018-04-29T09:36:09Z blep-on-external: lisp is still a fantastic * language, i get it 2018-04-29T09:36:15Z pjb: blep-on-external: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm#/media/File:Programming_paradigms.svg 2018-04-29T09:36:25Z pjb: blep-on-external: you can use easily lisp in 90% of those boxes… 2018-04-29T09:36:48Z blep-on-external: that's a lot of boxes 2018-04-29T09:36:59Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:37:00Z pjb: blep-on-external: the thing is that lisp is a META-programming programming language (cf /topic). 2018-04-29T09:37:21Z pjb: blep-on-external: therefore you can modify the language to fit the programming paradygm you need to solve the current problem. 2018-04-29T09:37:34Z blep-on-external: which brings me to another thing: lisp is reasonably newbie friendly for its complexity 2018-04-29T09:37:52Z blep-on-external: that is also true 2018-04-29T09:38:13Z pjb: Yes. So learn lisp, write lisp programs, start up companies using lisp to develop nice products! 2018-04-29T09:38:30Z blep-on-external: i have one pet peeve regarding paradigm though 2018-04-29T09:38:49Z Hello_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:38:59Z blep-on-external: they really really really should have made CL tail recursive, i think things can be better written with recursion 2018-04-29T09:39:17Z pjb: Most implementation implement this optimization. 2018-04-29T09:39:33Z pjb: Just try to avoid unwind-protect and dynamic bindings :-) 2018-04-29T09:39:38Z blep-on-external: for example, when i wrote a binary tree using CL structs, i passed around sections of lists using ranges 2018-04-29T09:39:52Z blep-on-external: i couldn't not blow the stack somehow with 300k+ words in a binary tree 2018-04-29T09:39:56Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:40:05Z blep-on-external: actually, nvm that 2018-04-29T09:40:32Z blep-on-external: tail optimisations wouldnt help, i'm calling make-btree twice and stuff. /rant 2018-04-29T09:41:54Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:42:17Z beach: blep-on-external: recursion has its place, but pretty much only when tail recursion is not an option. When tail recursion is "natural", usually iteration is even clearer. 2018-04-29T09:42:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:43:06Z blep-on-external: usually. if i'm traversing some kind of tree, recursion works very well 2018-04-29T09:43:18Z beach: Indeed. For threes, recursion is perfect. 2018-04-29T09:43:26Z beach: But then, it is usually not tail recursion. 2018-04-29T09:43:34Z beach: And if it is, then iteration is even better. 2018-04-29T09:43:59Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:44:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:46:26Z blep-on-external: anyways, for another bollocks conversation starter: 2018-04-29T09:46:45Z blep-on-external: if lisp machines disappeared in the AI winter, why haven't they reappeared now AI is a popular research thing again? 2018-04-29T09:47:57Z blep-on-external sent a long message: blep-on-external_2018-04-29_09:47:56.txt 2018-04-29T09:49:05Z vap1 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:49:05Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2018-04-29T09:49:13Z beach: That's pretty much it. 2018-04-29T09:49:42Z beach: Like I said a few hours ago, modern processors are quite good for Lisp. 2018-04-29T09:49:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:50:13Z blep-on-external: i still think we can do better 2018-04-29T09:50:46Z beach: In what way would that be? 2018-04-29T09:51:15Z MichaelRaskin: To be honest, I think that the AI directions for Lisp machines are not what the modern AI boom is 2018-04-29T09:51:26Z vap1 quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T09:51:29Z beach: That's true too. 2018-04-29T09:51:43Z blep-on-external: well, most interpreted languages today use some kind of stack-based VM 2018-04-29T09:51:59Z blep-on-external: yeah, Lisp machines did symbolic and logic stuff, not neural nets 2018-04-29T09:52:18Z beach: blep-on-external: How is that related to Common Lisp? Most modern Common Lisp implementation compile to native code, using the registers of the processor. 2018-04-29T09:52:34Z phoe: modern CL isn't interpreted 2018-04-29T09:52:43Z phoe: most implementations actually compile stuff 2018-04-29T09:52:59Z beach: blep-on-external: And there is no such thing as "interpreted language". Whether a compiler or an interpreter is used is related to the implementation, not the language. 2018-04-29T09:53:09Z pjb: Lisp hasn't been interpreted since 1962. 2018-04-29T09:53:25Z blep-on-external: ok, may i start again? 2018-04-29T09:54:27Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:55:44Z blep-on-external: a lot of interpreting implementations for languages use stack based VMs. these are simple to compile for cause there's no register trickery needed 2018-04-29T09:56:05Z blep-on-external: instead of "put 2 in register #1, put 3 in register #2 and add #2 into #1", a stack VM runs "put 2, put 3, add them" 2018-04-29T09:56:25Z blep-on-external: the CADR machine did this with compiled Lisp 2018-04-29T09:56:28Z pjb: blep-on-external: cf. cl-cuda and https://github.com/michelp/hillisp 2018-04-29T09:57:08Z blep-on-external: compilers fit the processor, so modern compilers use a register model 2018-04-29T09:57:13Z blep-on-external: that's pretty cool actually 2018-04-29T09:57:34Z phoe: blep-on-external: if this is what you mean: yes, in theory you can create hardware that is highly optimized for CL 2018-04-29T09:57:58Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T09:58:01Z blep-on-external: i'd like an OpenCL version though that automagically converts vectors to OCL arrays and back 2018-04-29T09:58:06Z phoe: in practice: you'll need a person who'll have enough money, time and people to do it, and it is highly unlikely such a person exists 2018-04-29T09:58:45Z MichaelRaskin: Especially with the current hardware situation… 2018-04-29T09:59:36Z pjb: The current hardware is highly optimized for lisp, just like for C or any other programming language. Let's say it's a good local optimum. 2018-04-29T09:59:43Z pjb: The problem is not the hardware. It's the FFI. 2018-04-29T10:00:06Z pjb: It's the fact that you coded the kernel in C, and you have to interface to it and to a lot of userspace libraries written in C. 2018-04-29T10:00:25Z pjb: This is where all the difficulties and slowness lies. 2018-04-29T10:00:33Z MichaelRaskin: Per-language hardware optimisation might make sense if there is an actual niche where «twice as fast» is more expensive per-chip than «half as many» 2018-04-29T10:00:34Z blep-on-external: i'm not convinced the hardware is optimized for lisp 2018-04-29T10:01:04Z blep-on-external: the machine doesn't have a "symbol" type, "integer" type, "pointer" type or anything 2018-04-29T10:01:14Z pjb: The solution is to use a kernel written in lisp. cf. Mezzano, Movitz, etc, or participate into beach lisp OS project (planning stage now). 2018-04-29T10:01:20Z phoe: hardware discussion belongs to #lispcafe though. 2018-04-29T10:01:34Z blep-on-external: oh ok 2018-04-29T10:02:01Z phoe: let's keep this channel focused on Common Lisp. 2018-04-29T10:02:37Z blep-on-external: fair enough 2018-04-29T10:05:07Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:05:50Z JuanDaugherty: the music on that video about common lisp made it sound like all those people were dead 2018-04-29T10:06:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:07:15Z phoe: JuanDaugherty: which video? 2018-04-29T10:07:33Z JuanDaugherty: the one pjb linked above 2018-04-29T10:09:40Z JuanDaugherty: i have a lisp OS windmill but in my thing, lisp is just a high level thing, a controlling image over a more or less standard linux 2018-04-29T10:10:24Z MichaelRaskin: JuanDaugherty: oh, a similarly jaded soul 2018-04-29T10:10:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T10:10:43Z blep-on-external: i have a portable lisp interpreter kernel thingamabob which runs on Linux, C64 and DOS 2018-04-29T10:11:14Z pjb: Not posted a video here recently. 2018-04-29T10:12:25Z JuanDaugherty: oh geez, now I have to find it, it was a thing at stanford in '89 2018-04-29T10:12:41Z JuanDaugherty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvU3pJbZBj0 2018-04-29T10:12:45Z ukari quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2018-04-29T10:13:11Z pjb: You mean the sicp lectures? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&list=PL8FE88AA54363BC46 2018-04-29T10:13:14Z JuanDaugherty: i just assumed it was here 2018-04-29T10:13:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:13:34Z JuanDaugherty: X3J13 meeting 2018-04-29T10:13:44Z pjb: Well, time flies. 2018-04-29T10:15:02Z JuanDaugherty: sorry, thought it was one you posted, dunno where but it was obviously in last hour or so in some freenode channel 2018-04-29T10:15:03Z pjb: It was 30 years, they were in their 30s, so they're all retired now. Berlin wall wasn't down yet! 2018-04-29T10:16:23Z pjb: Make some such videos at the ELS, and watch them in 30 years :-) 2018-04-29T10:16:53Z MichaelRaskin: JuanDaugherty: is your windmill a pure windmill or are there any ideas I have a chance to grab for my layered system with Lisp for high-level control? 2018-04-29T10:17:34Z JuanDaugherty: it is not a pure windmill, but I have a lot of balls in the air 2018-04-29T10:18:00Z JuanDaugherty: but there's a possibility you could within a year 2018-04-29T10:18:37Z MichaelRaskin: Because I am slowly expanding what I control with Common Lisp 2018-04-29T10:19:01Z JuanDaugherty: i am refactoring, leveraging off of existing code, one CLOS app which shall remain nameless in particular 2018-04-29T10:19:03Z phoe: one language to control them all 2018-04-29T10:19:46Z jackdaniel: are we talking about C again? ;-) 2018-04-29T10:19:51Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:20:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, except this C has a little L afterwards 2018-04-29T10:20:17Z JuanDaugherty: no, I at least am talking about lisp OS 2018-04-29T10:20:28Z MichaelRaskin: I currently use Lisp to do the root-level control, and then I have some integration with StumpWM and I definitely embrace having multiple Lisp instances with different lifetimes and different OS privileges 2018-04-29T10:21:30Z MichaelRaskin: So if you are refactoring some preexisting CLOS application, maybe we have started from complementary directions anyway 2018-04-29T10:21:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:22:25Z JuanDaugherty: well the core of my OS concept is to make a single system image using 9P stuffs 2018-04-29T10:22:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:23:07Z JuanDaugherty: with the lisp image as the high level executive 2018-04-29T10:23:14Z MichaelRaskin: Hm 2018-04-29T10:24:01Z MichaelRaskin: In my case it would probably go from the other direction: if I use OS-provided jails and multiple interacting processes for everything, is there that much difference that some of them are not even local… 2018-04-29T10:25:46Z JuanDaugherty: first expressing an idea in a publicly logged channel is a kinda virtual NNDA 2018-04-29T10:26:05Z JuanDaugherty: public disclosure or whatever 2018-04-29T10:26:10Z wigust quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:27:20Z MichaelRaskin: Well, in my case I have a public repository with the code I actually run 2018-04-29T10:27:30Z Quetzal2 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:28:21Z JuanDaugherty: since I'm mostly refactoring and integrating it's not as quixotic as it might sound. I will make code available in my git repo to authenticated users of my domains 2018-04-29T10:29:33Z JuanDaugherty: as well as detailed design documents 2018-04-29T10:29:35Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:30:36Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:32:16Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, what percent of those people at the X3J13 meeting would say are in fact retired? 2018-04-29T10:32:24Z JuanDaugherty: *would you 2018-04-29T10:34:57Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:43:02Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:43:51Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:43:55Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:46:06Z Kundry_Wag_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:47:21Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:47:24Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-04-29T10:52:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-29T10:56:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T10:59:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:01:50Z janivaltteri quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-29T11:01:53Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:03:58Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:04:23Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:08:12Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T11:12:36Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:14:52Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:15:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:18:59Z Kundry_Wag_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:19:24Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:25:04Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-29T11:26:20Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:30:41Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:37:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:38:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T11:39:19Z dtornabene quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T11:41:32Z zaquest joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:42:47Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:46:02Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:47:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:50:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T11:52:00Z Kevslinger joined #lisp 2018-04-29T11:59:52Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:01:24Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:03:02Z damke__ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:03:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:03:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:06:17Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:06:21Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:10:05Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-29T12:10:25Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:11:25Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:14:13Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T12:14:15Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-29T12:17:26Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:19:44Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: well, they look like they're between 27-35 so most of them would be today between 57 and 65. Furthermore, they're all american or live and work in the US, so retirement is more flexible, so I would say that none of them are retired yet. A few of them are already dead. Others are still working. Perhaps 30% are planing to retire in a couple of years, and the rest later. Now of course, you could use google and wiki 2018-04-29T12:19:44Z pjb: to get more information about the group, their age, and the current status. It would be more interesting to write an AI to do it for you. You could try wolfgan alpha on it perhaps? 2018-04-29T12:20:31Z pjb: wolframalpha.com I mean. 2018-04-29T12:22:26Z pjb: Not able. Neither is google. Perhaps facebook can do it, but I don't do facebook. 2018-04-29T12:23:13Z pjb: Perhaps the list of people in this meeting is already noted somewhere on the web… 2018-04-29T12:23:50Z pjb: But I don't find full listings. 2018-04-29T12:24:08Z vepsilip joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:25:03Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:30:12Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:34:31Z MasouDa_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:36:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:37:09Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:38:26Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:38:27Z scymtym_: phoe: you asked about let-plus. i did some maintenance work under the sharplispers organization. the improvements should be in quicklisp 2018-04-29T12:41:21Z phoe: scymtym_: yes, I found the sharplispers fork shortly afterwards. 2018-04-29T12:41:26Z phoe: Thanks! 2018-04-29T12:41:45Z makomo: pjb: it would be interesting to find the full list. i've recognized 3 people so far -- steele, kiczales and pitman 2018-04-29T12:44:07Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:47:13Z beach: makomo: Very impressive! From where do you recognize them? Of the three, I have only met Pitman, but I am not sure I would recognize him in the video. 2018-04-29T12:49:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:49:35Z makomo: beach: the internet, i've yet to meet another lisper in real life :-). both kiczales and pitman have a picture on their sites 2018-04-29T12:49:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T12:50:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T12:50:58Z p_l: makomo: then you need to visit Genova next year :D 2018-04-29T12:54:47Z makomo: who knows, it might just happen :-D 2018-04-29T12:56:25Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:00:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T13:00:49Z Naergon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T13:09:07Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T13:09:23Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, i would have inferred what you said as it has the ring of truth 2018-04-29T13:09:52Z JuanDaugherty: as far as SEs of today, ... . 2018-04-29T13:09:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T13:10:33Z JuanDaugherty: no doubt the thing is coming, prolly available to some extent and even google does pretty well if you have super chops for it 2018-04-29T13:11:09Z JuanDaugherty: i am 64 and I look forward to decades of work life ahead 2018-04-29T13:11:43Z JuanDaugherty: i imagine academics shed their class loads 2018-04-29T13:12:00Z JuanDaugherty: or even teaching entirely 2018-04-29T13:12:11Z JuanDaugherty: with exceptions 2018-04-29T13:12:35Z JuanDaugherty: that video aside, lispers don't exactly strike me as people persons 2018-04-29T13:16:15Z vepsilip: JuanDaugherty: its the lisp. we're self conscious... 2018-04-29T13:18:08Z JuanDaugherty: :) 2018-04-29T13:18:40Z vepsilip: :) 2018-04-29T13:19:13Z vepsilip: beyond that.... its not easy having super powers 2018-04-29T13:19:27Z vepsilip: sort of makes one an outcast 2018-04-29T13:23:07Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: one thing you need to take into account is that processes being remote *does* matter - you get to deal with network that might be much less perfect that intra-computer IPC 2018-04-29T13:23:50Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-29T13:25:35Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:25:56Z eli_oat quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T13:28:15Z MichaelRaskin: p_l: depends on how remote. And I build everything around «experiment anyway, it's no problem if something crashes», which means that local IPC is also slowly adjusting the expectations 2018-04-29T13:30:58Z Xach: mfiano: gamebox-math doesn't build for me today 2018-04-29T13:32:55Z phoe: Xach: share logs? 2018-04-29T13:36:55Z pfdietz_: Xof: I actually found a use for user-defined method combination, in ansi-tests. 2018-04-29T13:37:57Z MasouDa_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T13:39:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:39:44Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:40:15Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: The ring of truth is always ±ε. 2018-04-29T13:40:42Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: and a function of time and place. 2018-04-29T13:40:47Z JuanDaugherty: well if it's just a ring 2018-04-29T13:40:47Z Xof: pfdietz_: user-defined method combinations, yes 2018-04-29T13:41:07Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, did you see the Phillip Morrison series with that title? 2018-04-29T13:41:15Z Xof: user-defined method combinations, with :generic-function, possibly (particularly when used with user-defined generic function classes) 2018-04-29T13:41:22Z Xof: user-defined method combinations with :arguments? 2018-04-29T13:42:34Z JuanDaugherty believes in apodictic verities, and not just in mathematics 2018-04-29T13:42:36Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: for example, if you say that the sum of the angles of a triangle is π radian, then you're wrong. On Earth, it's greater, in general. Locally it can be smaller. 2018-04-29T13:43:15Z JuanDaugherty: well we risk the topic nazis if it can't be frame in a cl context 2018-04-29T13:43:38Z pjb: You would have to quote your axioms and your inference rules with all your sentences, to be able to say true tautologies. 2018-04-29T13:44:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T13:44:37Z pjb: Bookmarked https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChkEqt6l4gwfoyJPPS7OTiA/videos ; I'll watch it later. 2018-04-29T13:44:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:44:57Z JuanDaugherty: *framed. So could be couched in terms of frame systems maybe. 2018-04-29T13:45:23Z JuanDaugherty: e.g. euclidean vs something else 2018-04-29T13:47:30Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-29T13:50:11Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T13:53:49Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T13:54:01Z Xach: phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-04-28/failure-report/gamebox-math.html#gamebox-math 2018-04-29T13:58:40Z omilu joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:00:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:01:21Z mfiano: Interesting...I cannot reproduce 2018-04-29T14:04:41Z Xach: Hmm, I'm using a recent sbcl from git 2018-04-29T14:04:56Z Xach: let me try with a release 2018-04-29T14:05:09Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:05:29Z mfiano: I see the problem now...just wondering why I don't run into it 2018-04-29T14:05:38Z mfiano: So, I can at least fix at least part of the problem 2018-04-29T14:05:44Z Xach: could be improved inference in git? 2018-04-29T14:05:50Z mfiano: Perhaps 2018-04-29T14:06:58Z mfiano: Xach: Could you pull and retry with your git SBCL now? 2018-04-29T14:07:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:08:47Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:10:16Z Xach: mfiano: 100% works 2018-04-29T14:10:44Z mfiano: Xach: Great. There's just a style warning I have to fix it seems 2018-04-29T14:10:46Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:11:11Z mfiano: Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't paying attention to feeds :/ 2018-04-29T14:11:20Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:11:45Z damke__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:12:54Z Xach shakes RSS fist 2018-04-29T14:14:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:15:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:15:41Z mfiano: Pushed fix for style warning, which would have been a runtime error 2018-04-29T14:15:49Z mfiano: Should be good now 2018-04-29T14:16:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:21:00Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:24:38Z TCZ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T14:25:43Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:27:23Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:27:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:28:15Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:29:18Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:32:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T14:33:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:36:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:38:21Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:39:00Z makomo: a very interesting video: "Why Black Boxes are so Hard to Reuse, lecture by Gregor Kiczales", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l2wMgm7ZOk 2018-04-29T14:39:05Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:41:38Z pfdietz_: Xof: it used long form define-method-combination, but not :arguments or :generic-function. Although looking at those, I could see them being useful in my specific case. 2018-04-29T14:43:10Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T14:48:44Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:50:34Z phoe: Is it wise to (defmacro bar ...) (setf (macro-function 'foo) (macro-function 'bar)) to have the same macro definition under two distinct names? 2018-04-29T14:51:14Z phoe: Oh. It is not wise. 2018-04-29T14:51:25Z phoe: " The consequences are undefined if environment is non-nil in a use of setf of macro-function." 2018-04-29T14:52:12Z Bike: uh, but you don't do that? 2018-04-29T14:52:18Z phoe: ...hmm, I have a null environment though. And the notes say that what I do is doable. 2018-04-29T14:52:34Z Bike: obviously setf macro-function is defined for a null env 2018-04-29T14:52:45Z phoe: Yep. 2018-04-29T14:53:24Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T14:54:51Z Xof: pfdietz_: ok, that's interesting: a real-life example would be helpful 2018-04-29T15:08:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T15:09:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:10:08Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:11:12Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:15:22Z pfdietz_: The method combination is called randomized. It invokes a random applicable method. The methods have weights that control their relative likelihoods. 2018-04-29T15:17:07Z lnostdal quit (Quit: https://quanto.ga/) 2018-04-29T15:18:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T15:19:40Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T15:22:24Z Xof: so far so good 2018-04-29T15:23:03Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:27:03Z pfdietz_: If I want a method to be able to fail and reinvoke the generic function, that would be a use case for the :generic-function argument (as I understand how that works). 2018-04-29T15:27:30Z Xof: ok, and if you want to call the gf with the same arguments, you'd need the arguments 2018-04-29T15:28:13Z pfdietz_: Yes. Or if I wanted to have some control over the random number generator, there could be extra arguments to do that. 2018-04-29T15:29:40Z Xof: something like &key random-seed? 2018-04-29T15:29:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:31:15Z Xof: oh, wow, that actually does the Right Thing 2018-04-29T15:31:33Z Xof: you don't need to specify the required arguments in the :arguments form 2018-04-29T15:32:37Z Xof: (you probably do still need to have &allow-other-keys in the generic function) 2018-04-29T15:33:27Z Xof: hey, pfdietz, that's a "fun" ansi test: check that defining a method combination with a :arguments &key foo clause doesn't cause that keyword to be accepted by the generic function 2018-04-29T15:33:51Z Bike: i was going to say you could expand into (tagbody top ...however you choose... (call-method method (make-method (go top)))) to do "failure" by call-next-method, but the make-method form is evaluated in a null lexical environment 2018-04-29T15:33:55Z Bike: tragic 2018-04-29T15:34:07Z pfdietz_: I have no recollection of how complete the d-m-c tests were. 2018-04-29T15:34:22Z Xof: (arguably this behaviour is wrong) 2018-04-29T15:34:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T15:36:05Z pfdietz_: The methods always know the name of their generic function, so unless the failing is occuring in the method combination's glue code that use isn't a very good one. 2018-04-29T15:38:19Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:38:29Z Xof: I wanted to implement a finite state machine method combination, using qualifiers as state labels 2018-04-29T15:39:10Z Bike: and what, a method return value is the next state? 2018-04-29T15:39:14Z Xof: but again it's not quite right, because the qualifiers are for compile-effective-method-time and the methods' return values are effective-method-run-time 2018-04-29T15:39:15Z Xof: Bike: yes 2018-04-29T15:40:01Z eli_oat quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-29T15:40:01Z Xof: so far the most promising use of :arguments (for me) is information to affect the combination passed as an extra keyword argument 2018-04-29T15:40:54Z pfdietz_: Method combination for constraint satisfaction, where each superclass is a different kind of constraint. 2018-04-29T15:44:05Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:53:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T15:54:06Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:54:43Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:58:09Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T15:58:24Z broccolistem_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T15:59:25Z Bike: pfdietz_, Xof: https://gist.github.com/Bike/5ca14ba142f3ca3fc65e4c912f4cde9f now if you'll excuse me i need to escape my volcano lair before it erupts 2018-04-29T15:59:55Z pfdietz_: :) 2018-04-29T16:00:21Z pfdietz_: Method combination for implementing simulated annealing, where temperature is an argument. 2018-04-29T16:00:49Z pfdietz_: Method combination for executing methods in separate threads, where max # of threads is an argument. 2018-04-29T16:05:14Z broccolistem_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2018-04-29T16:05:27Z broccolistem_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:06:52Z broccolistem_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T16:06:52Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T16:07:22Z broccolistem_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:07:28Z wooden_: i'm doing ncurses development, so running sbcl in another window and slime-connect'ing to it. i would like to use log4cl, but in addition to printing in the slime repl, it prints to the sbcl window as well, messing up the ncurses display. can i disable output to the sbcl repl? if so, how? 2018-04-29T16:09:41Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T16:09:53Z orestarod joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:10:03Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:10:15Z Bike: log4cl probably lets you bind the output stream 2018-04-29T16:10:29Z scymtym_: wooden_: (log4cl:remove-all-appenders log4cl:*root-logger*) (log:config :stream SLIME-STANDARD-OUTPUT) where SLIME-STANDARD-OUTPUT is just *standard-output* if you execute the forms in the SLIME repl 2018-04-29T16:10:42Z broccolistem_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T16:10:56Z broccolistem_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:12:39Z broccolistem_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T16:12:52Z broccolistem_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:14:45Z Bike: i forgot you can't have multiple methods in the same group if they have the same level of specialization, which makes the whole exercise even mroe pointless than it was already 2018-04-29T16:15:23Z orestarod: anyone here having used cl-yacc? 2018-04-29T16:15:42Z beach: orestarod: You get better answers if you state your real question. 2018-04-29T16:15:52Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:18:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T16:19:15Z wooden_: scymtym_: thank you! totally works. 2018-04-29T16:20:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T16:23:20Z makomo: orestarod: i haven't but i've used esrap (scymtym's fork) and it worked well 2018-04-29T16:26:53Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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If I see no light from cl-yacc, I will switch to your work and maybe consult you after reading the docs. Thank you nonetheless! :) 2018-04-29T16:55:30Z Bike: eight lines to cover basic arithmetic seems a lot more convenient than yacc, though maybe it's hard to do in addition to non-expressions or something 2018-04-29T16:55:47Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T16:56:51Z orestarod: What I am trying to do is more complex than simple arithmetics,though not too complex. I will provide the grammar if you wish to check for yourself and maybe tell me a few tips. 2018-04-29T16:56:57Z Bike: minion: message for scymtym: in the parser.common-rules readme, the link to architecture.builder-protocol in the "infix operators" section is a little messed up. 2018-04-29T16:56:58Z minion: message for scymtym in the parser.common-rules readme, the link to architecture.builder-protocol in the "infix operators" section is a little messed up: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/message%20for%20scymtym%20in%20the%20parser.common-rules%20readme%2C%20the%20link%20to%20architecture.builder-protocol%20in%20the%20\"infix%20operators\"%20section%20is%20a%20little%20messed%20up?source" contains illegal character #\" a 2018-04-29T16:57:05Z Bike: okay. 2018-04-29T16:57:15Z eli_oat quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-29T16:57:35Z orestarod: THe problem is the grammar is inherently ambiguous, and needs proper operand precedence to solve that 2018-04-29T16:57:54Z orestarod: as a result cl-yacc parser complains about shift-reduce conflicts 2018-04-29T16:58:02Z Bike: i'm just looking at scymtym's example. it has precedence baked in. 2018-04-29T16:58:22Z orestarod: okay 2018-04-29T17:00:17Z blt quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-29T17:01:54Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:03:47Z ealfonso` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T17:05:32Z blt joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:05:32Z blt quit (Changing host) 2018-04-29T17:05:32Z blt joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:08:46Z scymtym joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:08:53Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:09:59Z Kundry_Wag_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:10:26Z Bike: scymtym: the link to architecture.builder-protocol in the readme is messed up. 2018-04-29T17:10:31Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:10:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T17:14:00Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T17:16:22Z scymtym: Bike: thanks. should be fixed now 2018-04-29T17:21:24Z glv quit (Quit: glv) 2018-04-29T17:23:51Z aabbcc joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:29:07Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:29:31Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T17:38:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T17:38:41Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:38:42Z Jen quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T17:42:24Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-29T17:42:46Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I thought you were the maintainer of McCLIM. Sigh, I am getting really confused lately. 2018-04-29T18:13:19Z eli_oat1 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:13:19Z eli_oat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T18:18:21Z nirved_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T18:18:50Z nirved joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:18:55Z beach: mfiano: These days, jackdaniel is the maintainer, and he is doing a fantastic job. 2018-04-29T18:18:57Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:19:16Z mfiano: Someone just wrote a 3D game in McCLIM for the Lisp Game Jam :) 2018-04-29T18:19:17Z beach: mfiano: He recently posted a video with live coding of CLIM gadgets. 2018-04-29T18:19:26Z beach: Oh, really? 2018-04-29T18:19:28Z beach: Nice! 2018-04-29T18:19:39Z mfiano: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018/rate/252016 2018-04-29T18:22:03Z beach: Great! Publicity can't hurt. 2018-04-29T18:22:34Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:23:01Z eli_oat1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-29T18:23:15Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:23:17Z dddddd joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:23:45Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:24:13Z milanj__ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:24:14Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T18:24:39Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:25:31Z phoe: wait, seriously? 2018-04-29T18:26:13Z phoe: woah 2018-04-29T18:27:25Z mfiano: Yeah that's incredible 2018-04-29T18:27:54Z phoe: it is crazy 2018-04-29T18:28:32Z beach: Excuse my ignorance, but why is it "incredible" and "crazy"? 2018-04-29T18:29:33Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Ex Chat) 2018-04-29T18:29:35Z phoe: It did not occur to me that McCLIM is *this* ready for action 2018-04-29T18:31:26Z mfiano: Likewise, but moreso that something like this could be created in a such a short period. 2018-04-29T18:31:32Z phoe: ^ 2018-04-29T18:31:47Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T18:34:03Z beach: mfiano: How do you know how long it took to create? 2018-04-29T18:34:25Z phoe: beach: Lisp Game Jam has a set duration. 2018-04-29T18:34:39Z mfiano: ^ 2018-04-29T18:34:51Z phoe: People can prepare their libraries in advance, but they start coding at a given hour of a given day and they must finish coding before a given hour of another day. 2018-04-29T18:34:51Z minion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-29T18:35:00Z beach: I see. 2018-04-29T18:35:11Z specbot quit (Read error: No route to host) 2018-04-29T18:35:16Z jackdaniel: McCLIM? 3d? hu hu 2018-04-29T18:35:24Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:36:05Z minion joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:36:14Z mfiano: jackdaniel: Thanks for the excellent work in McCLIM if I never thanked you (and all the other contributers too). 2018-04-29T18:36:44Z specbot joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:36:49Z easye joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:37:18Z python47` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:38:08Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:38:10Z aabbcc joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:38:37Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm just cleaning some parts of the code - it is written by many hackers 2018-04-29T18:39:28Z mfiano: Who is working on the mezzano port? 2018-04-29T18:39:49Z jackdaniel: fittestbits, he hangs out on #clim and #mezzano 2018-04-29T18:39:53Z mfiano: Some months ago I saw that my pngload library was forked in preparation for the mezzano port, and I'd like to know if that ever got anywhere 2018-04-29T18:40:07Z mfiano: Ah yeah that sounds familiar 2018-04-29T18:40:34Z jackdaniel: well, as far as I know it works just fine on mezzano, I think he needs to tie some loose ends here and there and it will be merged upstream 2018-04-29T18:40:46Z mfiano: Great 2018-04-29T18:41:02Z jackdaniel: he was a little blocked by me, because I was refactoring mirror class hierarchy until two weeks ago 2018-04-29T18:41:36Z python47` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T18:42:07Z jackdaniel: wow, this 3d game looks cool 2018-04-29T18:43:10Z mfiano: After the jam deadline (tonight/tomorrow depending where you live), everyone will have 4 days to play and then rate their favorites, so stop by again then :) 2018-04-29T18:43:23Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:43:34Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:44:16Z jackdaniel: I'll have to study the source code after the deadline 2018-04-29T18:44:46Z jackdaniel: but that will have to wait until I'm done with things (now I'm hacking on ECL and I'm learning Forth) 2018-04-29T18:45:10Z MichaelRaskin: Are these two things related? 2018-04-29T18:45:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: Forth for analyzing the ECL bytecode? 2018-04-29T18:45:48Z jackdaniel: phoe: that was the motivation, but I'm also interested in Forth itself 2018-04-29T18:45:49Z MichaelRaskin: Lisp reader macros for read-time Forth translation into Lisp, maybe 2018-04-29T18:46:01Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: ECL's bytecompiler and interpreter are forth-like VM 2018-04-29T18:46:08Z jackdaniel: I want to learn the principles behind such systems 2018-04-29T18:47:20Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T18:47:21Z jackdaniel: [I've got additionally inspired to learn it at ELS banquet ;)] 2018-04-29T18:47:30Z phoe: jackdaniel: how? (: 2018-04-29T18:47:37Z zotan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:47:46Z Bike: obvs should learn joy 2018-04-29T18:47:59Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:47:59Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:48:07Z Bike: has quotation, so it's basically lisp 2018-04-29T18:49:13Z pierpa: or Factor, which is basically CL reversed and with no parens 2018-04-29T18:49:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:49:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:50:12Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T18:51:08Z jackdaniel: phoe: discussion around the table with fourier and davazp 2018-04-29T18:52:32Z zotan joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:53:23Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:53:46Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:53:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T18:56:33Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:56:37Z eli_oat quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-29T18:56:37Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T18:58:45Z phoe: hah 2018-04-29T18:58:55Z phoe: the code I use to integrate PROTEST with 1AM is bigger than 1AM itself 2018-04-29T19:06:31Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:10:03Z flip214: phoe: link to 1am? "protest 1am common lisp" doesn't find any useful hit ;/ 2018-04-29T19:10:27Z Bindler joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:10:27Z phoe: flip214: it's not public yet 2018-04-29T19:10:30Z flip214: ah, quickdocs is better. 2018-04-29T19:10:34Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/1am/blob/master/1am.lisp 2018-04-29T19:10:37Z phoe: that's the whole 1am 2018-04-29T19:10:48Z flip214: phoe: it isn't? http://quickdocs.org/1am/ 2018-04-29T19:11:03Z phoe: flip214: my PROTEST/1AM integration code isn't 2018-04-29T19:11:04Z phoe: ...yet 2018-04-29T19:12:20Z flip214: wasn't there a "5pm" or so, too? 2018-04-29T19:12:26Z phoe: FIVEAM, yes 2018-04-29T19:12:38Z phoe: flip214: https://github.com/phoe/protest/blob/master/src/1am/1am.lisp that's my integration code 2018-04-29T19:13:01Z flip214: ah, not a number but the number's textual representation. yeah, right. thanks. 2018-04-29T19:13:39Z phoe: flip214: don't worry though, 5AM is their package nickname 2018-04-29T19:14:17Z flip214: phoe: but neither quickdocs nor quicklisp:system-apropos nor a listing of my ~/quicklisp/.../software found any matching system name! 2018-04-29T19:15:56Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T19:16:12Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:16:50Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:17:25Z phoe: huh? 2018-04-29T19:17:28Z phoe: (ql:quickload :1am) 2018-04-29T19:18:27Z aabbcc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:19:17Z phoe: (ql:quickload :fiveam) 2018-04-29T19:20:15Z jackdaniel: and of course: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/2am ;-) 2018-04-29T19:20:30Z jackdaniel: this is just small extension of 1am I needed 2018-04-29T19:20:50Z jackdaniel: but you may want to look at it since you are interested in 1am 2018-04-29T19:20:51Z jackdaniel: phoe: ↑ 2018-04-29T19:21:15Z phoe: jackdaniel: I promise you that the next testing framework I create will be called HALF-PAST-TWO 2018-04-29T19:21:25Z flip214: phoe: I looked for "4", "5", and "6", each "pm" and "am", but couldn't find anything. 2018-04-29T19:21:37Z flip214: but never mind, you already told me what I needed to know! 2018-04-29T19:22:02Z phoe: flip214: (ql:system-apropos "FIVEAM") did the trick for me 2018-04-29T19:22:11Z flip214: phoe: but "5am" doesn't. 2018-04-29T19:22:18Z phoe: yep 2018-04-29T19:22:22Z ealfonso` joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:22:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks for the heads-up, I'll think of integrating it with PROTEST based on my 1AM code 2018-04-29T19:22:55Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:23:23Z kushal quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T19:23:23Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T19:23:40Z jackdaniel: do whatever you please. I'm not planning to put it on quicklisp, I'm already confused with unit test frameworks we have, not going to make the problem bigger 2018-04-29T19:23:55Z phoe: well, in that case, I won't ,þ 2018-04-29T19:24:23Z kushal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:24:43Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:27:32Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:29:15Z energizer quit (Disconnected by services) 2018-04-29T19:29:23Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:29:58Z energizer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T19:30:17Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:32:11Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:35:47Z l2y joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:37:06Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-29T19:39:05Z light2yellow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:39:07Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:39:16Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:41:43Z l2y quit (Quit: l2y) 2018-04-29T19:42:29Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:43:54Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:44:43Z Xof: Bike: that (:method-combination machine) looks surprisingly sane. Doesn't use arguments or generic-function, though :-) 2018-04-29T19:45:16Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:45:18Z Bike: you can't have methods with different qualifiers but the same specialization 2018-04-29T19:45:20Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:46:14Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T19:46:16Z vepsilip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T19:47:44Z Bike: or at least sbcl complains... i don't know if it's defined 2018-04-29T19:49:33Z Bike: "If the two methods play the same role and their order matters, an error is signaled" 2018-04-29T19:49:59Z Bike: so really we'd like to have an infinite number of metnod groups. define method combination is not powerful enough, obvs 2018-04-29T19:51:09Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-29T19:54:00Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-29T19:56:38Z fsmunoz joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:00:16Z Xof: I /think/ we decided that if the method group was * we would let it through 2018-04-29T20:00:58Z Xof: ;;; It is reasonable to allow a single method group of * to bypass all 2018-04-29T20:00:58Z Xof: ;;; rules, as this is explicitly stated in the standard. 2018-04-29T20:02:09Z Bike: oh, a single group. 2018-04-29T20:02:18Z Xof: yeah. Possibly we should extend that to any group with * 2018-04-29T20:02:48Z Xof: but you can make your machine method combination work with sbcl by making :start a method-combination argument 2018-04-29T20:02:55Z Xof: I think 2018-04-29T20:03:13Z Bike: yeah that kind of makes sense anyway. 2018-04-29T20:05:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:07:59Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T20:09:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T20:10:23Z barryfm joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:13:41Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:25:21Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T20:26:33Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T20:29:16Z Bike: http://ix.io/193W/lisp so featureful 2018-04-29T20:32:27Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T20:34:29Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:34:51Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T20:37:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:37:49Z fikka joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:39:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyone want to reccomend a testing framework? I was just going to use lisp-unit or maybe 5am, but my reccomendations are 11 years old now. 2018-04-29T20:40:52Z jackdaniel: I find fieam pretty capable 2018-04-29T20:40:55Z jackdaniel: fiasco is very good too 2018-04-29T20:41:37Z jackdaniel: as of other gazzilion unit testing frameworks – can't tell. 1am is good for running tests by hand and stress tests 2018-04-29T20:42:28Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-29T20:42:39Z jackdaniel: s/fieam/fiveam/ 2018-04-29T20:44:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: thx 2018-04-29T20:44:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:45:00Z light2yellow quit (Quit: light2yellow) 2018-04-29T20:48:12Z T-NIL joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:49:38Z T-NIL left #lisp 2018-04-29T20:51:29Z DemolitionMan quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2018-04-29T20:58:10Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2018-04-29T20:59:24Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my GNU GuixSD server — gnu.org/s/guix) 2018-04-29T21:00:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:01:41Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:03:13Z nckx joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:04:19Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T21:04:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:10:00Z pseudonymous quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T21:28:28Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:28:33Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:33:12Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:33:17Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:33:21Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:33:21Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:35:55Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-29T21:41:48Z zxcvz quit (Quit: zxcvz) 2018-04-29T21:47:12Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:51:47Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-29T21:53:17Z ealfonso` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-29T21:57:50Z josemanuel quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-29T21:58:43Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-29T22:07:19Z barryfm quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-29T22:12:13Z Baggers joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:13:36Z kajo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-29T22:14:03Z kajo joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:14:29Z SlowJimmy quit (Quit: good bye cruel world) 2018-04-29T22:15:58Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:18:38Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T22:19:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:21:39Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:21:58Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:23:19Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:28:13Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:30:42Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:31:35Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:31:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:32:53Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T22:33:12Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:33:12Z epony joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:35:16Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:36:35Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:38:10Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:39:29Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T22:40:23Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:40:42Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T22:41:27Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-29T22:42:03Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:42:19Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-29T22:42:59Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:44:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:44:35Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:44:59Z Quetzal2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-29T22:46:35Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:48:14Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:48:27Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:48:49Z fsmunoz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:50:05Z orestarod quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-29T22:50:52Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-29T22:56:09Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T22:57:58Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-29T23:03:07Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-29T23:03:14Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-29T23:04:51Z broccolistem quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1-dev) 2018-04-29T23:05:03Z broccolistem_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2018-04-29T23:05:17Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2018-04-29T23:08:37Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-29T23:08:54Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In systems with hidden state this can expose bugs. Found a bug in clisp doing this. 2018-04-30T00:01:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:03:57Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:04:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:04:35Z JenElizabeth joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:06:04Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:06:47Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:10:16Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:11:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:14:57Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:16:32Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:16:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:17:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:18:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:21:21Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:25:29Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:26:56Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:29:29Z pmc_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T00:37:37Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:37:45Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:37:59Z eli_oat quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-30T00:38:45Z eli_oat joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:38:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:41:16Z epony: pfdietz_ now, also some calculators have this problem. 2018-04-30T00:42:44Z dxtr joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:48:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:51:01Z paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:51:01Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:51:17Z dented42 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:51:48Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:52:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:53:13Z josh joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:53:35Z josh is now known as Guest83816 2018-04-30T00:54:20Z dxtr quit (Quit: leaving) 2018-04-30T00:55:24Z Guest83816 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T00:55:59Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:56:22Z Guest83816 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T00:56:34Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T00:58:12Z josh_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:01:49Z Guest83816 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:02:01Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:03:14Z Tristam joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:03:18Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:04:36Z dxtr joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:08:45Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:09:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:10:55Z t0adst00l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T01:11:41Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:12:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:14:41Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:16:20Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T01:22:00Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:22:23Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:25:54Z t0adst00l joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:27:22Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:31:10Z t0adst00l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:37:37Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:41:53Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:42:19Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:43:33Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:44:45Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T01:44:52Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-30T01:46:29Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2018-04-30T01:49:04Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Just put all programmers in front of a Lisp machine and your crisis is over.\"" -- Matthias Felleisen, 1 hour ago. 2018-04-30T02:10:39Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:17:07Z Mutex7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T02:21:19Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:21:53Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:23:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:27:36Z pfdietz_: If only that were true. :) 2018-04-30T02:29:35Z elderK joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:29:53Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:30:09Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:31:33Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:35:40Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:36:26Z aindilis joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:37:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:40:27Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:41:45Z pierpa: (MFs point, though, is that at the time they were wrong. He wrote this in a rant *against* Lisp Machines style of developing software) 2018-04-30T02:42:55Z pierpa: basically, he's against the REPL as we know it. 2018-04-30T02:45:34Z doanyway joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:47:51Z MasouDa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:50:19Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:52:17Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:53:27Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:55:28Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:57:05Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T02:58:23Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T02:59:45Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:03:57Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:07:06Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:09:10Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:09:17Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:10:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:11:42Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:13:29Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-04-30T03:13:51Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:18:57Z comborico1611 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:19:39Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:19:47Z fisxoj quit (Quit: fisxoj) 2018-04-30T03:21:39Z jack_rabbit joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:22:05Z johnvonneumann quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:23:03Z sellout- joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:24:57Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:25:19Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T03:26:08Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T03:27:25Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:27:28Z aindilis joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:32:04Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:32:33Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:33:07Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:33:53Z varjag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:34:29Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:34:34Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:35:04Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:36:29Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T03:37:36Z johnvonneumann_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:37:57Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:39:33Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:40:57Z ealfonso: I'm trying to debug a condition raised in my hunchentoot , but I don't want to resort to print statements when I have slime. Is there a way to get backtraces from hunchentoot handlers in slime? 2018-04-30T03:43:46Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:45:32Z shrdlu68: Did LispMachines of old have system calls as we know them today? I'm trying to gain perspective on whether it would be possible/desirable to expose the OS's API by some other means, perhaps through a pseudo-filesystem of network. 2018-04-30T03:48:04Z p_l: they didn't 2018-04-30T03:48:27Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T03:48:29Z p_l: in fact, they didn't even have system calls in CP/M classic style, or MVS OS 2018-04-30T03:49:38Z p_l: what the oldest of them had was multi-threaded VM lying deep inside the CPU that handled some of the work in a way that could be considered "syscalls", but more adequately formed the "Virtual Machine" in which the code lived 2018-04-30T03:51:08Z josh_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:51:54Z shrdlu68: p_l: I see. 2018-04-30T03:52:24Z p_l: pretty much everything was done through plain function calls 2018-04-30T03:53:21Z p_l: I guess AmigaOS and AtariOS (of the 8bit fame) could be considered similar 2018-04-30T03:53:51Z p_l: also classic windows pre 4.x (i.e. 1.01 - 3.x) which was implemented essentially as a bunch of shared libraries you linked with 2018-04-30T03:54:13Z p_l: (maybe partially classic MacOS?) 2018-04-30T03:54:21Z beach joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:54:30Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering whether it would make sense to expose syscalls in Linux in some other way, such that one doesn't have to rely in C/Assembly to interface with the kernel. 2018-04-30T03:54:57Z shrdlu68: s/rely in/rely on/ 2018-04-30T03:55:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2018-04-30T03:55:29Z shrdlu68: Morning beach! 2018-04-30T03:55:57Z p_l: shrdlu68: well, you need to do the actual call. Though VDSO kinda does exactly that, for some specialized calls that don't actually do any context switch 2018-04-30T03:56:01Z p_l: beach: 'morning 2018-04-30T03:57:03Z shrdlu68: p_l: Yes, I'm thinking of writing a kernel module or something similar. 2018-04-30T03:57:21Z p_l: shrdlu68: also, several systems had language-agnostic call interfaces, it's more of an Unix thing that brought C-defined interfaces itno life 2018-04-30T03:57:42Z p_l: for example, Windows has no official syscalls 2018-04-30T03:58:14Z shrdlu68: p_l: I'm looking for such material to read (language-agnostic call interfaces). 2018-04-30T03:58:15Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-30T03:58:40Z beach: shrdlu68: Is it something like this that you are thinking of? http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/ 2018-04-30T03:58:45Z p_l: shrdlu68: the documentation for VMS should be still out there on HP webservers, it was one of the more language agnostic systems 2018-04-30T03:59:18Z p_l: MVS (now called z/OS) is old enough to not care, and had significant amount of code written to this day in assembly 2018-04-30T03:59:49Z p_l: While a lot of windows is now in C land, the COM system is *heavily* used to provide API and handle ABIs 2018-04-30T04:00:11Z p_l: especially since you can't depend on such silly things as malloc() and free() being the same for two different libs 2018-04-30T04:00:30Z cmbntr joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:00:36Z igemnace joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:01:07Z p_l: L4 and pure Mach-based systems technically have IDL you want to use 2018-04-30T04:01:35Z p_l: hmm 2018-04-30T04:02:26Z p_l: I *suspect* AS/400 (now called IBM i) might have Lisp Machine-style lack of system calls across all languages outside of the POSIX environmnet 2018-04-30T04:02:57Z p_l: but that's because it has capability-style addressing, so calling a function might actually trigger apropriate security measures 2018-04-30T04:02:59Z beach: p_l: I am impressed by your knowledge of such things. 2018-04-30T04:03:06Z p_l: beach: I call it 2018-04-30T04:03:12Z p_l: "a legacy of misspent youth" 2018-04-30T04:03:27Z beach: Heh! Still, very useful stuff to know. 2018-04-30T04:03:36Z p_l: sometimes, yes 2018-04-30T04:03:47Z p_l: and definitely eye-opening to wider world of computing 2018-04-30T04:04:10Z p_l: I do sometimes envy the people who got to actually experience or build the things I only got to read about or use emulators for 2018-04-30T04:04:47Z p_l: shrdlu68: oh, there's one system you might want to look at 2018-04-30T04:05:02Z p_l: combining both direct function calling *and* filesystem-based APIs 2018-04-30T04:05:13Z p_l: Bell Labs (now VituaNova) Inferno 2018-04-30T04:05:19Z beach: p_l: I can see that. So how about you help build a LispOS according to my specification? Then you would be part of something like that. 2018-04-30T04:05:42Z p_l: beach: it's something I've been doodling about from time to time, actually 2018-04-30T04:05:58Z beach: If I had your knowledge, I would be greatly tempted. 2018-04-30T04:06:01Z shrdlu68: beach: Yes, this is interesting. Is the POSIX api language-agnostic? 2018-04-30T04:06:27Z beach: shrdlu68: Not at all. This specification is for Common Lisp only. 2018-04-30T04:06:32Z beach: shrdlu68: Sorry. 2018-04-30T04:07:02Z p_l: beach: I ... just thought it might be a fine PhD project 2018-04-30T04:07:14Z beach: Oh, very definitely so. 2018-04-30T04:07:38Z beach: When do you plan to do your PhD project? 2018-04-30T04:08:02Z p_l: hard to say. Current priorities involve paying off debts ASAP, in order to free up capital for a planned move to france 2018-04-30T04:08:15Z beach: Wow. 2018-04-30T04:08:24Z shrdlu68: beach: I see, this is part of your LispOS project. 2018-04-30T04:08:25Z beach: Life-changing decisions there. 2018-04-30T04:08:52Z antoszka: p_l: Move to Bordeaux then and you'll get a chance to do your phd with beach :) 2018-04-30T04:08:56Z p_l: beach: girlfriend likes warm climates, wants spacious area far away from people and a big house :) 2018-04-30T04:08:58Z beach: shrdlu68: Not really, no. For my LispOS project I don't plan to have anything POSIX like. 2018-04-30T04:09:29Z p_l: beach: generally, looking at Dordogne area 2018-04-30T04:09:30Z beach: antoszka: 'fraid not. I am about to retire, so I don't take on PhDs anymore. 2018-04-30T04:09:37Z beach: p_l: Oh, yes, very nice. 2018-04-30T04:09:40Z antoszka: beach: I see. 2018-04-30T04:10:06Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:10:08Z shrdlu68: beach: I'm not sure I understand the document. I'm thinking of writing a kernel module that would facilitate language-agnostic syscalls in the Linux kernel. Is this something like that? 2018-04-30T04:10:10Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:10:15Z p_l: beach: doesn't mean you can't collaborate (or review) papers, right? :) 2018-04-30T04:10:24Z doanyway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T04:10:30Z beach: shrdlu68: No, probably not. I might have misled you. 2018-04-30T04:10:30Z p_l: tbqh, I'd like to start by re-learning paper writing 2018-04-30T04:10:50Z beach: p_l: I definitely plan to continue to write and review papers. 2018-04-30T04:11:40Z shrdlu68: beach: Not at all. But does my plan make any sense to you? 2018-04-30T04:11:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:11:45Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2018-04-30T04:12:08Z beach: shrdlu68: I would need more time to think about it. I haven't had my coffee yet, and it is still early in the morning. :) 2018-04-30T04:12:11Z vtomole joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:12:27Z p_l: shrdlu68: ahh, one more interesting thing to read, possibly, is classic x86 segmentation and permission handling involved 2018-04-30T04:12:44Z shrdlu68: beach: Cool, I'll be around if you think of anything later. 2018-04-30T04:12:46Z vtomole: Why does (apply '+ '(1 2))=> 3 and (apply 'and '(1 NIL)) =>The function COMMON-LISP:AND is undefined.? 2018-04-30T04:13:03Z p_l: shrdlu68: I haven't looked at it in a long time, but it had "call gates" which controlled how you could call from different "modules" with different permission levels 2018-04-30T04:13:11Z beach: vtomole: AND is a macro, so can't be used with APPLY. 2018-04-30T04:13:25Z vtomole: Ah. Damn. 2018-04-30T04:13:48Z beach: p_l: Yeah, it looks like x86 was trying to emulate Multics in that respect. 2018-04-30T04:13:58Z josh_: but you can use every #'identity for a similar effect! 2018-04-30T04:14:04Z rme: vtomole: you can use cl:every 2018-04-30T04:14:09Z beach: vtomole: There are functions that do similar things, like EVERY and SOME. 2018-04-30T04:14:55Z shrdlu68: p_l: You've left me with enough material for a lot of reading. Does what I'm planning make sense? 2018-04-30T04:15:13Z p_l: shrdlu68: not sure. The fun is in figuring it out 2018-04-30T04:15:51Z p_l: I have a bit more pragmatic streak so I always look into things like security model and dealing with both having restricted system *and* hackable system 2018-04-30T04:16:03Z p_l: Lisp machines went towards extreme in "hackable" system 2018-04-30T04:16:19Z shrdlu68: I guess what I'm wondering is why this has not been done before. I was inspired by namespaces and cgroups in Linux. The former is implemented in syscalls while the latter is implemented through a pseudo-filesystem. 2018-04-30T04:16:54Z p_l: shrdlu68: funnily enough, both namespaces and use of pseudo-filesystems the way cgroups are done come from the same OS 2018-04-30T04:17:15Z shrdlu68: I ahve thought about security a little, not sure how my module would play nice with things like seccomp. 2018-04-30T04:17:33Z p_l: and there's documented reasoning behind which parts are done through system call and which through exported filesystem 2018-04-30T04:17:56Z p_l: the specific OS in this case is Plan9 2018-04-30T04:18:25Z p_l: which had *very* strong separation of what was kernel and user space, yet at the same time mixed the actual programming model in weird way 2018-04-30T04:19:03Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:19:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:21:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:21:59Z vtomole: beach: Ok thanks 2018-04-30T04:22:48Z antoszka: p_l: How close is current Inferno to the original plan9 ideas? 2018-04-30T04:23:10Z antoszka: p_l: BTW, are/were there any ANSI CL implementations for either OS? 2018-04-30T04:23:47Z p_l: they are very close but separate implementations of similar ideas, and generally speaking are interoperable to great degree (as Plan9 4thEd and Inferno had resynced their protocol implementations) 2018-04-30T04:24:30Z antoszka: but was Inferno rewritten from scratch? Or was it just a "new version" with stuff added/partly rewritten and so on? 2018-04-30T04:24:35Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:24:55Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:25:29Z p_l: it was a completely new OS that happens to be from related if not same team and which targeted Java as competitor 2018-04-30T04:27:05Z antoszka: yeah, I can see it was written mostly in Limbo, which is kinda a remake of p9's Alef, right? 2018-04-30T04:27:16Z antoszka: What about the Lisps there? 2018-04-30T04:27:34Z p_l: there's afaik no Lisp that runs on Dis (the Inferno VM) 2018-04-30T04:27:46Z p_l: there were *some* lisp implementations on Plan9 2018-04-30T04:28:02Z p_l: and theoretically it's doable to port ECL and even SBCL to it 2018-04-30T04:29:54Z himmAllRight17 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:30:23Z himmAllRight17 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:30:46Z p_l: arguably Inferno is one of the more recent "language OSes" but which tries to abstract the underlying hw fully 2018-04-30T04:31:53Z antoszka: p_l: Is it actually being used commercially in any areas? 2018-04-30T04:31:54Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T04:32:13Z p_l: Plan 9 was used as the "firmware" in Coraid storage platforms 2018-04-30T04:32:26Z p_l: Inferno was used in some VoIP stuff, but details are hard to find 2018-04-30T04:33:14Z p_l: Plan 9 was also used not exactly commercially in grid computing efforts and at least one supercomputer 2018-04-30T04:33:28Z p_l: bunch of interesting research projects on both, though 2018-04-30T04:33:32Z p_l: like Plan B and Omero 2018-04-30T04:36:43Z antoszka: p_l: Doesn't Inferno fill a similar niche to Erlang based systems? I know this is a different level of abstraction (OS + lang + runtime) vs (any-OS + lang + runtime). 2018-04-30T04:37:17Z p_l: the main difference is that Inferno comes with ready-made bare-metal kernel 2018-04-30T04:37:34Z p_l: with exception of one closed-source, bare-metal erlang is long dead 2018-04-30T04:37:59Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T04:38:24Z p_l: (doesn't mean it has to stay that way) 2018-04-30T04:41:54Z antoszka: yeah, so that's what I said, but anyway, guess that's a topic for #lispcafe, so i'll shup up here for now :) 2018-04-30T04:43:54Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T04:44:48Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:49:19Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:49:34Z fisxoj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:53:22Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:53:30Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T04:54:15Z drmeister: Say you have a list of N jobs on a machine with M logical processors (N > M) - does anyone have an elegant way to keep all M logical processors busy until the N jobs are done? 2018-04-30T04:54:22Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-30T04:58:41Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T04:58:55Z beach: Pick an arbitrary subset of M out of N jobs. When a job finishes, select one of the remaining ones to put on that processor. 2018-04-30T05:00:42Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:00:45Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:04:27Z pierpal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T05:04:32Z drmeister: I guess the devil is in the details - how do I know when a job finishes using say Bordeaux threads? thread-alive-p? condition-variable. 2018-04-30T05:04:33Z drmeister: ? 2018-04-30T05:04:50Z drmeister: I think it's too late - I can't think straight. I'll try again tomorrow. 2018-04-30T05:05:51Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T05:06:03Z shrdlu68: drmeister: You could use locks, such that running threads block execution, and when they finish they reklease the lock and allow the other jobs to run. 2018-04-30T05:07:03Z p_l: drmeister: you could create M execution threads that pick lambdas to execute from a queue 2018-04-30T05:08:04Z p_l: however you might have to ensure that there's no blocking calls, or possibly move them to a different thread 2018-04-30T05:12:20Z pillton: Or you could measure business. 2018-04-30T05:12:31Z pillton: Or is it busy-ness? 2018-04-30T05:12:39Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:12:48Z p_l: well, there are more complex algorithms, yes 2018-04-30T05:13:56Z p_l: one could mix together Petalisp with ideas of IBM MVS, and optimize the I/O pathways *upfront* and only release the process to execution with I/O pretty much all queued to run 2018-04-30T05:13:56Z jasom: drmeister: Have a queue of jobs; spawn 4 threads that pull from that queue. 2018-04-30T05:14:02Z ealfonso: does it make sense to define a macro like this to merge two structs? https://gist.github.com/erjoalgo/1b9dcb5f317639e4b4971255c8b3c5cd 2018-04-30T05:14:09Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T05:14:34Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:14:36Z ealfonso: I feel like I shouldn't be doing it 2018-04-30T05:15:51Z beach: When I see EVAL, I feel the same way. 2018-04-30T05:16:19Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:16:29Z beach: Plus, your indentation is wrong. You must not be using the SLIME-INDENTATION contribution. 2018-04-30T05:17:10Z beach: What does it mean to "merge two structs"? 2018-04-30T05:18:01Z beach: And, it looks like you are using CLASS-DIRECT-SLOTS, MAKE-INSTANCE and such that are not defined for structs. 2018-04-30T05:18:12Z beach: SLOT-VALUE. 2018-04-30T05:18:40Z JohanP quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T05:18:53Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:19:44Z beach: And you use IF with only a `then' branch that is also negated. In such cases, it is better to use UNLESS. 2018-04-30T05:20:35Z beach: Oh, and another with a normal `then' branch. Then it is better to use WHEN. 2018-04-30T05:21:04Z ealfonso: beach I'm using it with a struct and it worked, and CLASS-DIRECT-SLOTS, MAKE-INSTANCE did work 2018-04-30T05:21:34Z ealfonso: beach I have a config struct with many slots, and I need to default nil values to default ones 2018-04-30T05:21:48Z beach: ealfonso: Common Lisp is not defined by what works in a particular implementation, but by what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says. 2018-04-30T05:22:41Z beach: ealfonso: But, sure, if you want your code to work only in a particular implementation, you can use whatever works in it. But you didn't say that, so I am giving you feedback with respect to the language specification. 2018-04-30T05:23:55Z beach: ealfonso: If I were you, I would not use structs in the first place. I would use standard instances instead. 2018-04-30T05:24:41Z JohanP quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T05:24:50Z beach: ealfonso: And I would use CLOSER-MOP rather than SBCL-specific MOP functionality. 2018-04-30T05:24:55Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:25:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T05:26:38Z antoszka: drmeister: doesn't lparallel manage that automatically when you create an appropriate kernel? 2018-04-30T05:26:39Z ealfonso: I guess I was wondering if there is a more standard way of doing something like this 2018-04-30T05:27:11Z beach: ealfonso: For one thing, I don't see the reason to use a macro. 2018-04-30T05:27:27Z ealfonso: beach that's true 2018-04-30T05:27:31Z antoszka: drmeister: BTW, did you guys get to the US without problems? (i'm the guy you met at the airport :)) 2018-04-30T05:28:30Z beach: ealfonso: Furthermore, when you work with standard instances, you have functionality at your disposal that, while not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, is more consistent across implementations than when you work with structs. 2018-04-30T05:33:48Z surya quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T05:36:43Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-30T05:40:54Z JohanP quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T05:41:10Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:41:28Z ealfonso: beach thanks for the feedback. I turned it into a function and got SLIME-INDENTATION. I don't really care about other implementations for now 2018-04-30T05:42:12Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2018-04-30T05:47:09Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T05:48:08Z phoe: drmeister: if you want threads and just that, use BORDEAUX-THREADS; if you want to get actual work done, use LPARALLEL 2018-04-30T05:50:09Z aeth: eh 2018-04-30T05:50:09Z pillton: Depending on the problem it might be worth structuring your computation to work with schedulers like SLURM or Sun Grid Engine. 2018-04-30T05:51:41Z aeth: If you only use low-level libraries like bt you're probably going to reinvent things, but you're probably going to reinvent them exactly to your specifications, whereas higher-level libraries are going to do things you don't like. 2018-04-30T05:51:47Z aeth: So it's about time saved vs. control 2018-04-30T05:51:53Z aeth: No right answer imo 2018-04-30T05:52:10Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-30T05:52:33Z aeth: s/No right answer/No one correct answer for everyone/ 2018-04-30T05:57:21Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T05:59:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2018-04-30T06:00:18Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T06:02:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T06:05:06Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2018-04-30T06:05:33Z JohanP quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T06:05:33Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T06:05:36Z Bindler quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T06:06:33Z JohanP joined #lisp 2018-04-30T06:06:40Z dented42 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(LinuxX8664)") seems to bork ~/quicklisp/local-projects/system-index.txt 2018-04-30T10:11:54Z margeas joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:12:04Z borodust: Xach: is that a known problem? 2018-04-30T10:12:33Z borodust: I nailed it down to (ql::matching-directory-files "~/quicklisp/local-projects/" (lambda (file) t)) returning different results for sbcl and ccl 2018-04-30T10:13:44Z borodust: ccl returns only top-level directories of local-projects 2018-04-30T10:13:53Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T10:15:30Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:16:59Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:22:12Z elfmacs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:23:16Z light2yellow joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:23:24Z elfmacs joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:24:50Z borodust: Xach: ah, i see why :/ ccl's directory-entries calls merge-pathnames with :follow-links nil 2018-04-30T10:25:17Z borodust: i wonder how that worked earlier for me or did it even :/ 2018-04-30T10:25:45Z jackdaniel: borodust: not a solution, but a workaround: issuing ql:register-local-projects from sbcl should make things work on ccl too 2018-04-30T10:26:05Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:26:41Z borodust: jackdaniel: yeah i did that so far this way, but i use #'write-asdf-manifest-file and call to it overwrite system-index.txt :/ 2018-04-30T10:31:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:37:45Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:39:34Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T10:41:08Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T10:41:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:45:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:46:17Z light2yellow: is there a way to splice a list without comma and comma-at? for example, how do I create (a 1 2 3 c) if (setq b '(1 2 3)) ? what would be the equvalent of `(a ,@b c) ? 2018-04-30T10:46:49Z ecraven: light2yellow: expand the backquote, look how it constructs the result 2018-04-30T10:47:11Z light2yellow: ecraven: you mean with macroexpand? 2018-04-30T10:47:39Z ecraven: (cons 'a (append b '(c))) 2018-04-30T10:47:40Z ecraven: yes 2018-04-30T10:48:28Z jackdaniel: (append (list a) b (list c)) 2018-04-30T10:48:59Z jackdaniel: well, not list in your case I suppose 2018-04-30T10:49:16Z jackdaniel: either way, what do you want to achieve? (like a high-level goal) 2018-04-30T10:50:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:52:05Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T10:52:19Z light2yellow: ecraven: thank you, I forgot I can do this 2018-04-30T10:53:23Z light2yellow: jackdaniel: no high-level goal, just reading about macros and wondering what would be a substitute in normal expressions not prefixed by backquote, since I feel like splicing might be a useful thing 2018-04-30T10:53:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:54:21Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:55:58Z ecraven: light2yellow: it's very instructive, especially since CL has macroexpand-1. unfortunately, most Schemes miss that one :-/ 2018-04-30T10:56:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T10:58:27Z edgar-rft: light2yellow, you might be interested in 2018-04-30T10:58:28Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:00:13Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:03:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:03:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:04:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:05:20Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:05:31Z python476 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:07:09Z josh_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:07:15Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:07:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:08:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:08:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:10:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:11:34Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:15:10Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:16:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:17:45Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:22:14Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:23:51Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:24:10Z nika_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-30T11:24:24Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T11:26:56Z surya joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:27:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:30:06Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:33:22Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T11:34:18Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:37:35Z josh_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:37:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:44:18Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:47:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:48:36Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:48:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:53:35Z elfmacs quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-30T11:55:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:56:22Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T11:57:12Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T11:57:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:02:01Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:04:22Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2018-04-30T12:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:05:30Z raynold joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:05:44Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:07:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:09:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:12:02Z MasouDa joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:12:57Z knobo1: Any css sexp library recommended? 2018-04-30T12:15:51Z knobo1 is now known as knobo 2018-04-30T12:16:02Z jackdaniel: knobo1: css-lite is simple and sexp-based 2018-04-30T12:16:35Z knobo: I tried css-lite, I did not like it as I need to look in the source for documentation. 2018-04-30T12:16:43Z knobo: Like the :and operator for css selectors 2018-04-30T12:17:30Z knobo: And it is not verry "lispy" ("div" :and "span") instead of (:and "div" "span") 2018-04-30T12:18:18Z knobo: I'll try out lass, now. 2018-04-30T12:21:52Z matijja joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:23:14Z gko joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:25:27Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:26:20Z Bronsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T12:26:40Z knobo: So far so good :) 2018-04-30T12:35:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:38:17Z Guest88262 is now known as kolb 2018-04-30T12:39:27Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:41:01Z drmeister: antoszka: Hello! Yes we got home fine - it was a very smooth trip. I hope it was the same for you. 2018-04-30T12:41:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:41:23Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:41:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T12:42:19Z pagnol joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:42:43Z drmeister: antoszka, phoe, jasom, p_l, shrdlu68: Thanks - I'll check out lparallel and or use a queue. We have Bordeaux threads working. 2018-04-30T12:43:46Z Bike is now known as Bicyclidine 2018-04-30T12:45:57Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:46:54Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:48:30Z DemolitionMan joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:50:34Z Anthaas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T12:53:38Z josh_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:53:44Z broccolistem quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2018-04-30T12:54:26Z Anthaas joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:54:26Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2018-04-30T12:55:35Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T12:56:33Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T12:58:48Z dlowe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2018-04-30T13:00:15Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:01:27Z dlowe joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:05:07Z Jen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:08:49Z SuperJen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:10:19Z pagnol quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2018-04-30T13:13:32Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:14:09Z phoe: drmeister: you can use lparallel.queue 2018-04-30T13:14:38Z phoe: it should be present as soon as you (ql:quickload :lparallel) 2018-04-30T13:17:09Z lyding quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2018-04-30T13:17:10Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-30T13:17:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:19:12Z pfdietz_ quit 2018-04-30T13:20:31Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:24:29Z Xach: n/win 11 2018-04-30T13:24:45Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T13:25:01Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:25:29Z Xach: mfiano: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-04-30/failure-report/gamebox-math.html#gamebox-math 2018-04-30T13:25:34Z Xach: mfiano: more breakage today 2018-04-30T13:25:53Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:27:21Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:28:41Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:29:39Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:29:56Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:30:10Z _paul0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T13:31:34Z jackdaniel: can someone try to load serapeum on the newest ql release? I have an error: `The function SERAPEUM::KEY is undefined.' 2018-04-30T13:33:21Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:35:59Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T13:36:13Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:36:27Z josh_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:37:08Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-30T13:37:48Z Xach: jackdaniel: i was able to load it no problem. 2018-04-30T13:38:00Z jackdaniel: thanks 2018-04-30T13:38:02Z Xach: using sbcl 1.3.11 on amd64 2018-04-30T13:38:06Z Xach: latest quicklisp dist 2018-04-30T13:38:07Z jackdaniel: then it is probably some mess on my system 2018-04-30T13:38:12Z Xach: no local-projects 2018-04-30T13:38:20Z jackdaniel: (sbcl 1.4.0 amd64, plenty of local-projects :) 2018-04-30T13:39:49Z Xach: they're up to 1.4.0 now? wow!! 2018-04-30T13:39:56Z Xach: those sbclians! 2018-04-30T13:40:19Z jackdaniel: I think that 1.4.x is a thing now (not sure if x=4 or 5) 2018-04-30T13:40:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:41:53Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:42:25Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:43:15Z Xach upgrades the server 2018-04-30T13:44:03Z makomo joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:44:26Z jackdaniel: same problem on ecl. I'll try on a separate user account later (without polluted asdf's registry) 2018-04-30T13:45:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:46:42Z jackdaniel: yup, it loaded fine on fresh env 2018-04-30T13:47:15Z knobo: sbcl 1.4.7 now :O 2018-04-30T13:47:37Z warweasle joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:47:46Z knobo: With enhancement: better handling of unknown keyword arguments, which I have been wating for a couple of years :) 2018-04-30T13:48:51Z knobo: I think... I have to try it out. 2018-04-30T13:50:15Z papachan joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:52:38Z deba5e12 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-30T13:54:23Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:56:37Z wigust joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:58:48Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-30T13:59:21Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T13:59:28Z cage_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:00:24Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:00:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:02:38Z knobo: yes :) compilation without warnings :) 2018-04-30T14:04:22Z mfiano: Xach: This is strange. Even if I touch package.lisp as to force a full recompile, I do not get an error. However if I quickload with :verbose t, warnings become errors. 2018-04-30T14:04:36Z mfiano: So this is why I haven't caught what you have...and I'm unsure why this is occuring 2018-04-30T14:04:58Z Xach: mfiano: it is partly because quicklisp muffles warnings 2018-04-30T14:05:05Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:05:15Z Xach: mfiano: the best way to catch is to use :verbose t all the time or set *quicklisp-verbose* 2018-04-30T14:05:49Z mfiano: I've never had this issue before. Usually warnings stay as warnings 2018-04-30T14:06:50Z jackdaniel: I'm puzzled, I've cleaned cache, removed local-projects and common-lisp/ and I still have this weird issue 2018-04-30T14:06:57Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:06:59Z jackdaniel: I've even removed quicklisp (and reinstalled it) 2018-04-30T14:08:13Z Xach: mfiano: when you ql:quickload something, by default, you don't see cl:warnings. if you asdf:load or use quickload verbose, you do. 2018-04-30T14:08:30Z mfiano: I understand that 2018-04-30T14:08:32Z Xach: ok 2018-04-30T14:08:35Z mfiano: That has always been the case 2018-04-30T14:08:38Z Xach: I don't think this is good but it is the way it is 2018-04-30T14:09:05Z Xach: mfiano: which is the part that has never happened before? 2018-04-30T14:09:32Z mfiano: Xach: The _error_ only occurs with :verbose t, and log only shows the _warning_. 2018-04-30T14:10:27Z Xach: asdf considers a warning during building an error on sbcl 2018-04-30T14:10:45Z Xach: there would be no "ERROR:" string in the logs 2018-04-30T14:11:12Z mfiano: Well that explains it. I don't remember this before :) 2018-04-30T14:12:11Z Xach: From my perspective, I wish there was a really easy way to say "build verbosely and don't catch warnings when building local things but build quietly and catch warnings when building quicklisp-provided things" 2018-04-30T14:12:21Z Xach: I have had no luck puzzling that one out 2018-04-30T14:12:48Z Xach: mfiano: i hope a fix is in the works for gamebox math? 2018-04-30T14:12:56Z mfiano: Xach: already pushed 2018-04-30T14:13:03Z mfiano: (Hopefully) 2018-04-30T14:14:57Z Xach: looks good to me, thanks 2018-04-30T14:15:00Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:15:06Z Xach preps for liftoff 2018-04-30T14:17:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:18:21Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T14:18:43Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:20:44Z orestarod joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:21:03Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:25:53Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-30T14:26:41Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:34:51Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:37:33Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:40:02Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:41:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:45:24Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:47:56Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:48:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:49:45Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-30T14:50:27Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:52:49Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T14:52:59Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:53:04Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T14:55:43Z jasom: drmeister: one of my first mentors taught me that communicating via queues is hard to mess up. Being hard to mess up is worth its weight in gold when it comes to concurrency 2018-04-30T14:56:55Z jasom: lparallel's channels are less general-purpose than a queue, but if they do what you need they are even easier. 2018-04-30T14:57:18Z jasom: lparallel even has a parallel map which may be handy 2018-04-30T14:58:51Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T14:59:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:02:28Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2018-04-30T15:02:58Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T15:03:01Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:03:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:04:40Z larme1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2018-04-30T15:05:41Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-30T15:06:18Z SenasOzys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:06:42Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:07:42Z phoe: "enhancement: namestrings can now be computed for certain pathnames that previously did not have namestrings because of #\. characters in their name and/or type components. " 2018-04-30T15:07:49Z phoe: I remember discussing this one on #lisp some time ago 2018-04-30T15:08:07Z scymtym_ is always watching 2018-04-30T15:08:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: commuicating with queues has been easy in my experience as well 2018-04-30T15:08:32Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:08:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: producers put to queue, consumers get form queue 2018-04-30T15:08:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:09:15Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:09:43Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:12:27Z jackdaniel: creepy ;) 2018-04-30T15:12:36Z jackdaniel: drmeister: additional +: lparallel works on top of bt 2018-04-30T15:12:42Z jackdaniel: so you won't have to port it for clasp 2018-04-30T15:12:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:14:56Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:17:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:24:26Z johnvonneumann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:32:38Z Xof: Xach: (handler-bind ((warning (lambda (x) (if (quicklisp-provided-p *current-system*) (muffle-warning x) nil)))) ...) ? 2018-04-30T15:32:57Z pdv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:33:27Z Xach: Xof: how to determine current system? 2018-04-30T15:33:51Z Xof: curses 2018-04-30T15:34:19Z Xach: i am open to trying stuff! 2018-04-30T15:35:40Z Xof: A component knows its system 2018-04-30T15:36:56Z Xach: sorry to be dense - can't really connect the dots there 2018-04-30T15:37:01Z Xof: I'm thinking aloud 2018-04-30T15:37:27Z Xach: I was thinking about doing something with *compile-file-truename* and if it's in the quicklisp path structure but I don't remember where I landed on that. 2018-04-30T15:37:38Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:37:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there an easy way to determine the endianess of the machine? All I found in uiop was some stuff for reading little endian bytes. 2018-04-30T15:38:15Z Xof: the way I'm thinking aloud about is finding the current operation / component and using that 2018-04-30T15:38:40Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: I don't know offhand, but I'm curious - what would you do with that info? 2018-04-30T15:41:00Z Xof: *systems-being-operated* unfortunately does not have the property we would like -- it doesn't tell us the innermost system 2018-04-30T15:41:14Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:41:42Z Xof: and it's not clear to me whether you as quicklisp author are allowed to write methods on asdf:operate 2018-04-30T15:41:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Xach: I'm trying to write a lisp library equivalent to the following python library. https://docs.python.org/2/library/struct.html 2018-04-30T15:41:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's basically printf/scanf for binary formats. 2018-04-30T15:42:21Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: ah. so if you were to support "native" byte order 2018-04-30T15:42:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:42:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah. 2018-04-30T15:42:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: I wanted to do something like cl-ppcre where there was a sexpr and text notation, so I want the text notation to be as python comaptible as possible. 2018-04-30T15:42:48Z Xof: (if you are, you could write an around method that binds a special to the component being operated on, and test for that being in quicklisp's path) 2018-04-30T15:43:11Z pmetzger joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:43:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: Even though I don't see the point of a "native" byte order and figure people could determine that on their own. :/ 2018-04-30T15:43:19Z pmetzger left #lisp 2018-04-30T15:43:43Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: you could spawn python, pack in "native" order, and check the bytes you get back :) 2018-04-30T15:43:50Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:44:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:44:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: lol, might as well just write a python script and have my library call it at that point 2018-04-30T15:44:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: If I was going to go down that route, I'd probably use C anyway. 2018-04-30T15:44:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: (Documentation says that's what Python does anyway.) 2018-04-30T15:46:46Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T15:47:09Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:47:25Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:48:17Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T15:54:45Z varjagg joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:55:42Z puchacz joined #lisp 2018-04-30T15:56:02Z puchacz: hi, what's the library for quoting text to be embedded into XML pls? 2018-04-30T15:56:27Z puchacz: I understand there are 2 levels of quoting, either preserving whitespace (rare) or not preserving whitespace (common) 2018-04-30T15:56:41Z puchacz: but things like > etc have to be quoted like in HTML 2018-04-30T15:57:08Z puchacz: not sure if text into attributes needs to be quoted in the same way as text sitting in text nodes 2018-04-30T15:58:27Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T16:02:04Z asarch joined #lisp 2018-04-30T16:06:19Z mfiano: Now that Lisp Game Jam 2018 is over, everyone can show a little support and vote for their favorites for the next 3 days before the results are public: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2018/entries 2018-04-30T16:15:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T16:18:34Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T16:21:16Z nika joined #lisp 2018-04-30T16:26:49Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Doubly my mistake. 2018-04-30T17:09:02Z Xach: I have some software that reads defsystem forms without evaluating anything. 2018-04-30T17:09:12Z Xach: It overrides sharp-dot. 2018-04-30T17:09:25Z Xach: And it recognizes some of the common ways to slurp documentation in, but not format nil. 2018-04-30T17:09:32Z phoe: Yep, I see. 2018-04-30T17:11:04Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T17:12:23Z mflem joined #lisp 2018-04-30T17:13:33Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-30T17:15:45Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T17:21:21Z surya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T17:30:34Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T17:30:49Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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McCLIM and not much else 2018-04-30T18:05:59Z ym: Why McCLIM? 2018-04-30T18:06:27Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T18:06:38Z ym: I prefer to use DRM/KMS directly. 2018-04-30T18:06:44Z ym: It's pretty simple. 2018-04-30T18:07:21Z SenasOzys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T18:08:35Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T18:13:18Z White_Flame: ym: but that would just get you a raw framebuffer. McCLIM would be what draws on top of that 2018-04-30T18:13:35Z jackdaniel: I for instance use McCLIM, because people would shame me if I wouldn't ;-) 2018-04-30T18:13:59Z jackdaniel: (answering "why" ;-) 2018-04-30T18:14:42Z SenasOzys joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:14:51Z jackdaniel: ym: but to provide example of some adventages, you may watch this video (first 12m: https://youtu.be/RBOrllTA-yc) 2018-04-30T18:15:09Z ym: White_Flame, all I want is a raw framebuffer (well, with SIMD-optimized rendering, but SBCL has SIMD support, so that's no problem). 2018-04-30T18:15:23Z White_Flame: that's not much of a "LispOS" though 2018-04-30T18:15:33Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:15:46Z White_Flame: as an OS would presumably allow sharing of resources, including the screen 2018-04-30T18:15:47Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-30T18:16:38Z ym: Sharing screen? 2018-04-30T18:17:13Z White_Flame: um, yeah, like windows or at the very least swapping between programs' screens 2018-04-30T18:17:27Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T18:17:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T18:18:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:18:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T18:19:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:19:54Z SaganMan is now known as e^i 2018-04-30T18:20:18Z ym: IIRC there is X server implementation in CL, but I don't think about it yet. All I want is, ghm, SBCL minimalistic environment with DRM graphics output linux /dev/input as input etc. For my personal nearly-embedded needs. 2018-04-30T18:21:38Z ym: jackdaniel, nice video. 2018-04-30T18:23:05Z e^i is now known as SaganMan 2018-04-30T18:23:28Z enzuru joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:24:48Z sauvin_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T18:29:09Z White_Flame: what's ghm? 2018-04-30T18:32:31Z edgar-rft: God Help Me 2018-04-30T18:33:47Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:34:28Z White_Flame: ah, so basically the SBCL version of a Commodore 64 :) 2018-04-30T18:34:31Z jackdaniel: thank you 2018-04-30T18:37:03Z edgar-rft: whenever there's something unclear, ask me :-) 2018-04-30T18:37:23Z ym: ghm is my version of a coughing sound 2018-04-30T18:37:36Z dlowe: (loop (write-line "I AM AWESOME")) 2018-04-30T18:41:36Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:45:13Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T18:49:40Z foojin joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:50:27Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T18:51:08Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:51:21Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T18:51:38Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:52:00Z SlowJimmy joined #lisp 2018-04-30T18:55:52Z TMA: is there a SOAP web service client in quicklisp besides hu.dwim.utils/soap? (or more documentation than http://quickdocs.org/hu.dwim.util/api, which is sparse and does not cover the soap/XML part at all) 2018-04-30T18:56:11Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T19:01:15Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:02:29Z nika quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2018-04-30T19:02:44Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:02:44Z pierpal quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-30T19:02:53Z dcluna joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:09:00Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2018-04-30T19:09:28Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:11:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:12:51Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:14:01Z yoel: Petit_Dejeuner: If u r still looking for Python's struct alternative, take a look at userial 2018-04-30T19:14:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:18:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:19:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:22:08Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:23:57Z sz0 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:24:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:26:15Z terpri joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:29:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:29:43Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T19:30:18Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:33:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T19:33:35Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:35:15Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:38:46Z Jen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:40:38Z energizer joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:41:45Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:44:09Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:44:09Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:44:09Z zachk quit (Changing host) 2018-04-30T19:44:09Z zachk joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:44:37Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:45:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: yoel: thx 2018-04-30T19:46:16Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-04-30T19:53:53Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T19:56:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:01:04Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:02:26Z Mutex7 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:03:15Z pierpa joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:03:19Z Ven`` quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2018-04-30T20:05:15Z thorondor[m]: hello. I've noticed that ECL is quite slower than SBCL/CCL. Why is it? Is it just that the C compilation in ECL cannot compete with the assembler of SBCL/CCL. Or there are also other factors? 2018-04-30T20:05:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:05:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:05:42Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:06:20Z Xach: thorondor[m]: i think there have been many many more person-years of effort put into making sbcl compile to efficient code than ecl. 2018-04-30T20:06:45Z Xach: I would be somewhat surprised if there was an inherent problem with the compile-to-c approach that effort could not overcome 2018-04-30T20:06:54Z thorondor[m]: aha 2018-04-30T20:07:53Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:10:34Z thorondor[m]: ECL approach is very attractive as it make it very easily portable, but I noticed some slowness 2018-04-30T20:12:09Z yoel_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:13:32Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-30T20:14:55Z yoel_ quit (Client Quit) 2018-04-30T20:17:45Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:18:38Z yoel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:19:07Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:22:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:22:27Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2018-04-30T20:23:29Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:24:21Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:27:34Z p_l: I strongly suspect it might depend on whether "portable" C is target or not 2018-04-30T20:27:53Z p_l: my personal goals involving ECL require the portable part :) 2018-04-30T20:27:57Z lonjil joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:28:01Z p_l: so I hope it keeps being available 2018-04-30T20:29:18Z shka joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:33:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:33:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:34:03Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:34:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:35:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:35:57Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:37:12Z Kundry_W_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T20:37:43Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:38:30Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T20:39:02Z jackdaniel: according to the comparison I've read from '90 KCL (which is ancestor of ECL) was comparable in speed with back-in-a-day CMU CL 2018-04-30T20:40:22Z pierpa: for the sake of comparison, you may check other lisp-like languages which compile through C. One such language which produces fast code is Biglo, for example. 2018-04-30T20:40:29Z jackdaniel: but KCL family was most of its lineage a few men effort, so I think that what Xach said makes sense: most of it boils down to man-hours 2018-04-30T20:41:23Z Kundry_W_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:41:27Z jackdaniel: compiling to C has some drawbacks, but also has some adventages. one of the adventages is that gcc also performs certain optimizations (not much though - abstraction prevents some of possibilities) 2018-04-30T20:41:48Z jackdaniel: clasp achives a similar thing by compiling with LLVM (which also optimizes things) 2018-04-30T20:41:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:42:22Z jackdaniel: of course both (ECL and Clasp) have their own compilers with optimizations of their own 2018-04-30T20:43:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:44:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:44:44Z thorondor[m]: also, I find dealing with C easier than assembler 2018-04-30T20:44:52Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:45:46Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:48:13Z Rawriful joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:49:28Z pierpal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:50:09Z jackdaniel: sorry, paper with comparison was written for EcoLisp, direct ancestor of ECL – http://pages.di.unipi.it/attardi/Paper/LUV94.pdf 2018-04-30T20:50:51Z jackdaniel: I thought I saw it in the original KCL paper (http://www.softwarepreservation.com/projects/LISP/kcl/paper/kcl-paper.ps) 2018-04-30T20:51:41Z jackdaniel: of course this is archeology, but very intresting and useful if you plan to dig in ECL's innards 2018-04-30T20:52:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T20:55:59Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T20:56:41Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:56:43Z thorondor[m]: interesting, thanks 2018-04-30T20:57:38Z jackdaniel: btw, I've changed printer for foreign pointers, next release will have it 2018-04-30T20:57:49Z jackdaniel: it will make obvious whenever pointer is NULL or something else 2018-04-30T20:58:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2018-04-30T20:59:19Z thorondor[m]: btw, after updating ECL from gitlab, I cannot see debugging locals in stack frames from SLIME. although I'm not 100% it was because of the ECL upgrade 2018-04-30T21:00:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:00:34Z jackdaniel: that's not enough details for me. if you decide to report an issue, please include comparison between two builds (last release and develop build) and description what has changed/ how to reproduce that easily 2018-04-30T21:00:57Z jackdaniel: we had some changes with stacks lately, so there might be a regression 2018-04-30T21:01:09Z pierpal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:01:36Z thorondor[m]: ok, just mentioning it in case you noticed the same or somthing 2018-04-30T21:01:44Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:01:59Z jackdaniel: sure 2018-04-30T21:02:01Z jackdaniel: thanks 2018-04-30T21:04:33Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:06:34Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T21:13:29Z Quetzal2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T21:15:02Z comborico1611 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-30T21:20:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:21:34Z khisanth__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:21:56Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:27:51Z milanj_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:28:21Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T21:28:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:28:48Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T21:29:14Z python47` joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:30:41Z milanj__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:31:58Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:32:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:34:19Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:34:32Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T21:34:49Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2018-04-30T21:35:23Z jmercouris: options for hosting a DNS server? anyone ever done one with Lisp? 2018-04-30T21:36:28Z fe[nl]ix: jmercouris: I like Gandi 2018-04-30T21:36:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:36:33Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2018-04-30T21:38:56Z jmercouris: fe[nl]ix: sorry for not clarifying, I didn't mean a hosting provider (I too use Gandi, great company), I mean for software to serve DNS 2018-04-30T21:39:46Z edgar-rft: I've heard nil serves great as a Do-Not-Serve server 2018-04-30T21:40:06Z jmercouris: edgar-rft: a Link? I don't think it'll be easy to google "nil" 2018-04-30T21:40:15Z jmercouris: or are you making a joke? 2018-04-30T21:40:43Z python47` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T21:41:59Z edgar-rft: nil serves nothing, so it's a great Do-Not-Serve server 2018-04-30T21:42:18Z edgar-rft: I only wanted to motivate you :-) 2018-04-30T21:42:44Z foom: Gandi does a great job at serving DNS for you, so you don't need your own server. 2018-04-30T21:43:00Z foom: (Sorry, I have no idea about your actual question of a Lisp DNS server) 2018-04-30T21:43:13Z fe[nl]ix: jmercouris: DNS is so complicated nowadays that you definitely don't want your own server 2018-04-30T21:44:44Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T21:44:49Z drmeister: What do folks recommend in the following situation - I've got a grammar that I'm putting together that looks like the following: 2018-04-30T21:44:51Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/pVp1rirq/ 2018-04-30T21:45:33Z drmeister: A bunch of lists of symbols. I've got this special symbol 'CYCLE and I should prefix it with the package that it's defined within. 2018-04-30T21:46:50Z drmeister: But I forget to do that sometimes and then it's not recognized properly. I was thinking of recognizing any symbol with (string-equal (string sym) "CYCLE")) - is that a bad idea? 2018-04-30T21:47:48Z drmeister: I could use the :cycle keyword symbol instead - but everything else is keyword symbols. 2018-04-30T21:50:12Z drmeister: I'm developing a grammar to describe how to build molecules from parts. 2018-04-30T21:50:29Z drmeister: It goes molecule-part connection molecule-part connection molecule-part ... 2018-04-30T21:51:14Z drmeister: A molecule-part can be a symbol or a list with the form (name :label label) or ((name1 name2 name3 ...) :label label) 2018-04-30T21:51:32Z drmeister: :default is a default connection 2018-04-30T21:52:12Z drmeister: It's a bit more involved - but you get the picture. 2018-04-30T21:52:27Z drmeister: Oh - the (:cycle name) thing is to close a ring. 2018-04-30T21:53:05Z jmercouris: fe[nl]ix: it's complex, but it is the easiest way for me to do adblocking, I might just append to the hosts file for now, pointing to 0.0.0.0 2018-04-30T21:54:22Z fe[nl]ix: on what OS ? 2018-04-30T21:54:35Z jmercouris: Linux/OSX 2018-04-30T21:57:25Z fe[nl]ix: you can use dnsmasq 2018-04-30T21:59:18Z jmercouris: that's a good idea 2018-04-30T21:59:30Z drmeister: Meh - scr3w it - I'll use :cycle 2018-04-30T21:59:48Z jmercouris: didn't know it worked on OSX 2018-04-30T21:59:52Z jmercouris: thanks for the tip 2018-04-30T22:00:17Z iqubic joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:03:03Z TCZ joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:04:41Z thorondor[m]: drmeister: I think using (string-equal (string sym) "CYCLE")) could be OK. I think that same technique is used in LOOP macro for example 2018-04-30T22:05:29Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:05:57Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:05:59Z drmeister: thorondor[m]: Thank you. Is that how the LOOP macro handles all of its loop keywords? 2018-04-30T22:06:08Z drmeister: Rhetorical question - you just said that. 2018-04-30T22:06:22Z thorondor[m]: yes, I think so 2018-04-30T22:06:33Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:06:38Z mercourisj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T22:07:03Z rme: I think it uses symbol-name, but same idea, yeah. 2018-04-30T22:07:07Z mercourisj joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:07:20Z aeth: jackdaniel, ym: What I'm personally going to be doing for GUI "soon" is writing on top of cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl (although I'll probably replace cl-sdl2 with my own SDL bindings) 2018-04-30T22:07:48Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:08:20Z aeth: I've been looking into GPU-based font rendering like http://wdobbie.com/post/gpu-text-rendering-with-vector-textures/ and I'll either try to convert into a GPU-friendly format from zpb-ttf or write my own ttf parser if that doesn't work well. 2018-04-30T22:08:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2018-04-30T22:08:47Z drmeister: Yes - looking at the LOOP source code - that is what it does. 2018-04-30T22:08:51Z margeas quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-30T22:09:06Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2018-04-30T22:09:18Z drmeister: If it's good enough for LOOP - it's good enough for me - thank you. 2018-04-30T22:10:33Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:11:51Z yoel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:12:04Z comborico1611 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:14:10Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T22:14:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:19:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:20:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: what's wrong with the current bindings? 2018-04-30T22:21:31Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: With cl-opengl, they're just the bindings, and you can just use %gl if you want to directly use the low-level bindings. 2018-04-30T22:21:40Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: cl-sdl2 adds a *ton* of undocumented, complicated stuff on top. 2018-04-30T22:22:06Z aeth: Plus, the author left the Lisp community so now afaik no one understands how the whole thing works. 2018-04-30T22:22:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: he left? 2018-04-30T22:22:28Z aeth: Yeah, afaik it's basically in maintenance mode now, even though the bindings are apparently incomplete. 2018-04-30T22:24:12Z aeth: I've piece-by-piece rewritten almost all of my usage of cl-sdl2 outside of the init part to use as low level as the library permits (even if I have to use :: private stuff), so it shouldn't be *that* hard for me to switch to fresh bindings, especially if I replace the init stuff first. 2018-04-30T22:24:33Z Bicyclidine is now known as Bike 2018-04-30T22:24:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Seems like a pain to have to use raw FFI bindings. :/ 2018-04-30T22:25:07Z aeth: It's actually easier because at least the C side is documented. 2018-04-30T22:25:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, that's true. 2018-04-30T22:25:29Z aeth: You replace like 1 undocumented line or macro with 5 documented CFFI lines 2018-04-30T22:25:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: At least cl-sdl2 has doc strings. I know some people like to set them away from the definition of the function, but that just makes it a pain tor ead imho. 2018-04-30T22:25:56Z SenasOzys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T22:26:30Z aeth: The problem is that cl-sdl2 uses a lot of large, incredibly fancy, undocumented macros, both directly in the package and indirectly through stuff like autowrap 2018-04-30T22:26:45Z aeth: It has taken probably a total of 2 months of my time over the years to know as much about it as I do know 2018-04-30T22:27:23Z aeth: I don't think I've seen more sophisticated macros in library code. 2018-04-30T22:27:37Z pierpa: thorondor[m]: STRING-EQUAL works on symbols. No need to convert explicitly. 2018-04-30T22:28:32Z thorondor[m]: pierpa: ok. drmeister FYI 2018-04-30T22:29:07Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: e.g. with-sdl-event https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/blob/e61c10ac96f439729f1b9e128b024b02d8c3b4a8/src/events.lisp#L38-L43 2018-04-30T22:29:10Z aeth: which then uses c-let: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/blob/7a9edd3de2e48f66bbc599be247c7025c4e0f87e/plus-c/plus-c.lisp#L227-L268 2018-04-30T22:29:17Z aeth: That one took a few days to understand 2018-04-30T22:29:49Z aeth: When it works, it works. When you want to do something not directly supported by that macro... well... that takes some time. 2018-04-30T22:30:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: That looks pretty rough. 2018-04-30T22:30:11Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 2018-04-30T22:30:23Z Bike: what a scary looking function 2018-04-30T22:30:24Z drmeister: Yes - I noticed that in the LOOP code they use (STRING= frob loop-keyword) 2018-04-30T22:30:48Z aeth: I have never seen a macro like c-let before. It essentially creates a pseudo-macro, pseudo-function call. So let's say you have "event" in with-sdl-event. That doesn't actually exist. It's rewritten in the code-rewriting in c-let. 2018-04-30T22:30:54Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T22:31:19Z aeth: So when you see (event ...) that call doesn't exist, it's rewritten by c-let 2018-04-30T22:31:24Z Bike: well macrolet isn't too surprising 2018-04-30T22:32:26Z drmeister: Bike: I got grammar like this to work: (:= *olig3* (design:make-oligomer *parts* '((:lego3 :label :first) :default :lego3 :default :lego3 :default (cycle :first)))) 2018-04-30T22:32:27Z random-nick: maybe-make-macro is a really funny name 2018-04-30T22:32:31Z aeth: Well it's a macrolet and a symbol-macrolet in two mutually-recursive Lisp functions. I'm not sure I've seen anything more advanced than that. 2018-04-30T22:32:44Z aeth: s/Lisp functions/local Lisp functions/ 2018-04-30T22:32:52Z drmeister: Where: (design:define-part *parts* :lego3 '(((:legodkp :legohyd)) (:fg1>fg (:mbenzoic :pbenzoic :acetyl)) (:fg2>fg (:mbenzoic :pbenzoic :acetyl)) (:fg3>fg (:mbenzoic :pbenzoic :acetyl)))) 2018-04-30T22:33:07Z drmeister: So - I'm off to the races. 2018-04-30T22:34:00Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1) 2018-04-30T22:34:03Z aeth: If I were to write something like c-let I'd probably use at least 6 helper functions/macros 2018-04-30T22:34:28Z drmeister gets his jollies by doing last minute in-the-trenches programming the day before DOD site visits. 2018-04-30T22:35:57Z aeth: drmeister: context? 2018-04-30T22:36:56Z drmeister: Exactly that. We have some folks from the DOD visiting tomorrow and I'm writing code that I plan to demo to them. 2018-04-30T22:37:13Z aeth: drmeister: For a Lisp project? 2018-04-30T22:37:49Z drmeister: It's an essential part of it. 2018-04-30T22:38:08Z aeth: I thought that kind of thing died in the early 1990s 2018-04-30T22:38:41Z Bike: what kind of thing? parabenzoic acid? 2018-04-30T22:38:50Z aeth: Bike: military funding for Lisp 2018-04-30T22:38:51Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:39:50Z mercourisj: Bike: how did you come to such a random conclusion? 2018-04-30T22:40:54Z drmeister: It did - dead as a door knob ... until I came across it. 2018-04-30T22:41:43Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-30T22:41:46Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2018-04-30T22:42:20Z Bike: what's random 2018-04-30T22:43:09Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_random.htm 2018-04-30T22:43:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: "News of my death have been greatly exagerated." -Lisp 2018-04-30T22:43:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: -Also, Ada 2018-04-30T22:44:01Z aeth: What's cool about #'random is that #'random on fixnums in SBCL is apparently non-consing and quite efficient. 2018-04-30T22:44:10Z aeth: So feel free to use #'random literally everywhere, all of the time. 2018-04-30T22:45:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: tbh, I'd be surprised if #'random WAS consing 2018-04-30T22:45:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:45:49Z aeth: It could easily generate garbage if you used arrays 2018-04-30T22:46:04Z mercourisj: theoretically lisp is one of the few programming languaes that could generate truly random applications 2018-04-30T22:46:17Z mercourisj: you could use random to random select symbols and combine them until you have a full program 2018-04-30T22:46:18Z aeth: well, not portably 2018-04-30T22:46:35Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-04-30T22:46:42Z mercourisj: aeth: what do you mean? 2018-04-30T22:46:44Z aeth: If you wanted random #'random, afaik, you'd have to use an implementation-specific way to provide a seed to the random state. 2018-04-30T22:46:53Z mercourisj: oh, I see 2018-04-30T22:47:02Z mercourisj: I just mean in the sense that one can use macros to generate random code on the fly 2018-04-30T22:47:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I always thought it would be fun to make a library add advertisement blurbs and links to all the public identifiers at compile time. 2018-04-30T22:47:10Z mercourisj: rather than having some random condition within another language 2018-04-30T22:47:13Z aeth: e.g. an OS call to get a better random, once, and use that to seed #'random 2018-04-30T22:47:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:47:35Z aeth: although for all I know that's what SBCL does internally without a provided seed 2018-04-30T22:48:24Z Bike: (make-random-state t) is the "seed from something" call 2018-04-30T22:49:16Z aeth: What's the current way to get randomness on Linux? The getrandom() system call? 2018-04-30T22:49:43Z aeth: There are like 8 ways 2018-04-30T22:50:10Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:50:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Which is the RIGHT way? 2018-04-30T22:50:25Z scymtym: aeth: no, SBCL initializes the random state to a fixed constant. without the call Bike mentioned, subsequent (non-threaded) runs will produce identical sequences of "random" values 2018-04-30T22:51:17Z sucks joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:51:17Z sucks quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2018-04-30T22:51:39Z mercourisj: (defun random () 10) 2018-04-30T22:51:39Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T22:51:42Z aeth: scymtym: Yes, but there are two ways to actually set up a random state, including on SBCL, afaik. The portable way and the provide-a-seed way 2018-04-30T22:51:57Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:53:10Z alandipert quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:53:21Z alandipert joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:53:25Z markong joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:53:34Z scymtym: aeth: that is true but none of those happen automatically at startup 2018-04-30T22:54:02Z aeth: scymtym: Yes, I was just wondering how SBCL gets a random state in make-random-state because obviously if it used #'random it would cycle through the same random states! 2018-04-30T22:54:25Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:55:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:56:46Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T22:56:53Z hhdave joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:57:31Z scymtym: aeth: sure. on linux, it reads from /dev/urandom and uses a weaker fallback based on time and PID if that fails 2018-04-30T22:57:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:57:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2018-04-30T22:58:34Z aeth: scymtym: I don't think urandom is recommended anymore 2018-04-30T23:00:07Z megalography joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:01:53Z mercourisj: I believe the accepted way of getting a random seed is by downloading random++ from npm 2018-04-30T23:02:04Z aeth: I think getrandom() is the new recommend way in Linux 2018-04-30T23:02:26Z mercourisj: the reason why it will always be something new is because you'll be fulfilling the dependency via NPM, and who knows what it will be 2018-04-30T23:02:36Z scymtym loves how the urandom(4) man page claims that getrandom(2) is the safer alternative and then 50% of that man page is a super-complicated section called "Interruption by a signal handler" 2018-04-30T23:02:42Z rme: the /dev/urandom way is nice because it works on a lot of systems (at least linux/freebsd/osx/solaris-ish) 2018-04-30T23:03:04Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:03:11Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2018-04-30T23:03:12Z Rawriful quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2018-04-30T23:03:41Z aeth: Well I can understand why switching to getrandom() right way was probably not a good idea because it was introduced fairly recently. The manpage says kernel 3.17 2018-04-30T23:03:59Z aeth: kernel.org even shows 2 longterm kernels still supported that have a lower version number! 2018-04-30T23:06:30Z aeth: s/right way/right away/ 2018-04-30T23:07:59Z Tristam joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:08:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:09:37Z xrash joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:10:04Z fsmunoz joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:11:51Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:14:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:15:39Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:16:06Z ealfonso: why is hunchentoot insisnting on using html error templates when I set hunchentoot:acceptor-error-template-directory to nil? 2018-04-30T23:16:08Z Cymew joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:17:38Z mercourisj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:18:11Z ealfonso: s/insisnting/insisting 2018-04-30T23:18:38Z pierpa: there was no doubt about what you meant :) 2018-04-30T23:19:19Z ealfonso: s/insisnting/insististing 2018-04-30T23:19:33Z pierpa: lol. Still no doubt 2018-04-30T23:20:24Z aeth: instantiating 2018-04-30T23:20:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:21:21Z ealfonso: "If an ERROR-TEMPLATE-DIRECTORY is set in the current acceptor and the directory contains a file corresponding to HTTP-STATUS-CODE named .html, that file is sent to the client after variable substitution" 2018-04-30T23:21:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:25:10Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:26:00Z Pixel_Outlaw joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:26:00Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:26:05Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:26:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:28:08Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:33:03Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:33:23Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:33:43Z blt quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6 - http://znc.in) 2018-04-30T23:34:09Z zooey joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:35:20Z Mutex7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2018-04-30T23:38:01Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:40:43Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:41:46Z fsmunoz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:41:52Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:45:26Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:45:43Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:46:52Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:47:09Z SuperJen joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:48:18Z SuperJen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-04-30T23:54:27Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:54:57Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-04-30T23:55:03Z trocado joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:56:56Z yoel joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:57:02Z damke joined #lisp 2018-04-30T23:59:03Z johnvonneumann joined #lisp