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2018-03-01T02:25:22Z smokeink: Wouldn't it be nice to have a ;  before the => in the hyperspec, so that one can copy parts of the examples into the repl without having to manually delete the "=> result ..." ?
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2018-03-01T02:41:28Z fouric: smokeink: i know it's not the hyperspec, but phoe's ultraspec separates out the output from the code: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:functions:bit&redirect=1id=cl:functions:sbit
2018-03-01T02:42:46Z fouric: ,clhs sbit
2018-03-01T02:42:56Z smokeink: .clhs ldb
2018-03-01T02:43:03Z Bike: clhs sbit
2018-03-01T02:43:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_sb.htm
2018-03-01T02:43:05Z fouric: ty
2018-03-01T02:43:10Z fouric: specbot: help
2018-03-01T02:43:10Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop.
2018-03-01T02:43:14Z fouric: specbot: source
2018-03-01T02:43:19Z fouric: hm
2018-03-01T02:43:45Z fouric: would be nice to have clus in there
2018-03-01T02:43:53Z fouric would add if he could figure out who owns specbot
2018-03-01T02:45:50Z fouric: hm, not in https://trac.common-lisp.net/
2018-03-01T02:46:32Z fouric: ...would anyone happen to know who maintains this excellent bot?
2018-03-01T02:46:47Z fouric: i'm interested in possibly adding a feature to it after the term ends
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2018-03-01T02:49:12Z smokeink: the thing is , one would like to paste more than 1 form into the repl , and then play with them. Copy pasting from the ultraspec seems a little better as it doesn't copy any  "=>" but it still copies those results, which one doesn't need when fiddling inside the repl
2018-03-01T02:50:00Z fouric: oh, i get you
2018-03-01T02:50:05Z smokeink: and this should work in an offline ultraspec as well (for example in .chm format)
2018-03-01T02:50:20Z smokeink: or .txt format
2018-03-01T02:50:51Z fouric: hm, i wonder how difficult it would be to implement a button that hides the output for easy copy-paste
2018-03-01T02:50:53Z smokeink: So that one doesn't depend on the bloated browsers of these days & javascript and css and who-knows what
2018-03-01T02:50:56Z fouric isn't a webdev and doesn't do the JS
2018-03-01T02:51:12Z pillton: fouric: I think this is the bot behind specbot and minion. https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots
2018-03-01T02:51:25Z fouric: oh, ty!
2018-03-01T02:52:59Z pillton: fouric: Shinmera's bot is here. https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
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2018-03-01T02:53:27Z pillton: fouric: The nick is Colleen I think.
2018-03-01T02:53:46Z fouric: hm, there's a pull request on lisp-bots that's been open for over two months with no comments from stassats
2018-03-01T02:53:50Z fouric wonders if abandon
2018-03-01T02:54:09Z pillton: stassats is pretty busy.
2018-03-01T02:54:32Z fouric nods
2018-03-01T02:54:47Z fouric: colleen looks interesting - i'll bookmark for later
2018-03-01T02:55:01Z fouric didn't know shinmera did irc bots, thought he was more into gamedev
2018-03-01T02:55:05Z fouric: ty pillton
2018-03-01T02:55:28Z pillton: No worries.
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2018-03-01T03:50:15Z emaczen: pjb: Can you look on #ccl when you get a chance?
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2018-03-01T03:59:55Z smokeink: clhs integer-length
2018-03-01T03:59:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
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2018-03-01T04:03:42Z smokeink: "Returns the number of bits needed to represent integer in binary two's-complement format." does (integer-length) actually return the number of bits needed to represent  the integer's value, ignoring the sign ? (the sign bit is not counted)
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2018-03-01T04:08:22Z smokeink: so 0 is represented as a single sign bit 0 and -1 as a single sign bit 1 , right? (integer-length) doesn't count the sign bit, so (integer-length 0) ==> 0 and (integer-length -1) ==> 0   .  https://www.cs.cornell.edu/~tomf/notes/cps104/twoscomp.html
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2018-03-01T04:15:17Z pjb: emaczen: ok.
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2018-03-01T04:49:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-01T04:50:53Z fouric: Good morning!
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2018-03-01T05:05:08Z fouric: Hm, anyone have any ideas for why `(defun test () (let ((x 1)) (break) x))` shows the TEST frame as having no locals in sly-db?
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2018-03-01T05:06:01Z fouric: I'm not exactly sure how proclaim and declaim work, but I evaluated both (PROCLAIM '(OPTIMIZE (DEBUG 3))) and (DECLAIM (OPTIMIZE DEBUG 3)) at the repl before compiling, and still nothing.
2018-03-01T05:06:26Z beach: fouric: My guess is that the compiler does "constant propagation".
2018-03-01T05:06:50Z beach: fouric: So it turns it into (defun test () (break) 1)
2018-03-01T05:07:05Z smokeink: on my machine it displays the Local X
2018-03-01T05:08:14Z smokeink: fouric: try to put that declaim in your sourcefile
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2018-03-01T05:09:16Z fouric: i was evaluating it at the repl, but i'll try putting it in a separate file
2018-03-01T05:09:37Z fouric: beach: it's sbcl, and darn, i was hoping that (debug 3) would disable that
2018-03-01T05:09:46Z smokeink: or try this: (defun test () (declare (optimize (debug 3))) (let ((x 1)) (break) x))
2018-03-01T05:09:47Z fouric creates foo.lisp
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2018-03-01T05:10:40Z beach: fouric: I have (SPEED 0) in my .sbclrc in addition to (OPTIMIZE 3).
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2018-03-01T05:11:09Z smokeink: fouric: are you using slime? Is it saying [No locals] for that frame ?
2018-03-01T05:11:29Z fouric: yup!
2018-03-01T05:11:33Z fouric: or, well, i'm using Sly
2018-03-01T05:11:43Z fouric: ...which should be functionally identical in this case, because it's a fork
2018-03-01T05:12:16Z fouric: hm, (declare (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0))) inside the defun didn't work
2018-03-01T05:12:37Z smokeink: yeah... :) I know how it feels when you want to see the damn local var and it refuses to reveal itself in the debugger
2018-03-01T05:12:48Z fouric: ):
2018-03-01T05:13:26Z fouric: ...aaaaaand it didn't work in a distinct file, either
2018-03-01T05:13:28Z fouric: lemme try bare sbcl
2018-03-01T05:14:20Z fouric: ...how does one inspect a stack frame in sbcl's debugger
2018-03-01T05:14:36Z smokeink:  sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit --eval  "(defun test () (declare (optimize (debug 3))) (let ((x 1)) (break) x))"
2018-03-01T05:14:39Z fouric: darn it, the website is down again
2018-03-01T05:14:50Z smokeink: then eval (test) , then L to see the locals
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2018-03-01T05:15:07Z fouric: ty ty
2018-03-01T05:15:16Z fouric: There are no local variables in the function.
2018-03-01T05:15:18Z fouric: ;-;
2018-03-01T05:15:32Z fouric: sbcl --version => SBCL 1.3.14.debian
2018-03-01T05:15:32Z smokeink: what sbcl are you using
2018-03-01T05:15:45Z fouric: latest is 1.4.x iirc?
2018-03-01T05:15:47Z smokeink: try 1.4.4
2018-03-01T05:15:52Z fouric: (the site is down so i can't check directly)
2018-03-01T05:15:54Z fouric: kk
2018-03-01T05:16:03Z fouric: oh, github
2018-03-01T05:16:05Z fouric: derp
2018-03-01T05:17:37Z fouric: is placing (declare (optimize (debug 3))) at the top of a file equivalent to placing it in every one of your function definitions?
2018-03-01T05:17:42Z fouric is waiting for sbcl to compile
2018-03-01T05:18:32Z smokeink: when you place it at the top of the file it should be declaim instead, I think
2018-03-01T05:18:47Z smokeink: declare is to be put only inside certain forms, such as defun
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2018-03-01T05:19:21Z fouric: got it, ty
2018-03-01T05:21:19Z fouric adds (speed 0) to declaim form in sbcl init file
2018-03-01T05:24:06Z fouric: ok, i actually got 1.4.5 because i cloned master, which i guess is...development?
2018-03-01T05:24:10Z fouric doesn't see a "stable" branch
2018-03-01T05:24:23Z fouric: ah! i see the local! :D
2018-03-01T05:25:01Z fouric: ...so i suppose that i'm using this build of sbcl for the time being
2018-03-01T05:25:17Z fouric: ty smokeink, now i can observe my locals again ^-^
2018-03-01T05:25:29Z smokeink: you're welcome
2018-03-01T05:25:59Z smokeink: in your new sbcl does (step (/ 1 0)) give you this error ? : -314789226 fell through ETYPECASE expression. Wanted one of (SB-KERNEL:FDEFN FUNCTION) backtrace:  (SB-DI::HANDLE-SINGLE-STE ,   ("foreign function: call_into_lisp, ("foreign function: funcall2"  , ("foreign function: handle_single_step_trap
2018-03-01T05:26:19Z fouric: whoops, i quit it, lemme find again
2018-03-01T05:26:27Z smokeink: 1.4.4 has a bug and gives that strange error
2018-03-01T05:26:44Z beach: fouric: So (SPEED 0) did it, like I mentioned 15 minutes ago?
2018-03-01T05:26:48Z fouric: nope, i get a straight up DIVISION-BY-ZERO condition
2018-03-01T05:26:58Z smokeink: I think it's not (speed 0)
2018-03-01T05:27:01Z fouric: beach: no, because i tried that with my 1.3.x and it didn't work
2018-03-01T05:27:17Z smokeink: cuz my .sbclrc doesn't have (speed 0) , it only has (debug 3)
2018-03-01T05:27:32Z fouric: both using declaim at the top of a test file and also declare in the defun form
2018-03-01T05:27:40Z beach: fouric: Got it.
2018-03-01T05:27:48Z fouric: ty for mentioning it though
2018-03-01T05:27:56Z fouric: i added (speed 0) to my .sbclrc anyway
2018-03-01T05:28:01Z pillton: It should be proclaim if you are putting it in your .sbclrc.
2018-03-01T05:28:18Z fouric: even if it didn't fix *this* problem, i don't have any need for speed at the moment - debuggability trumps all
2018-03-01T05:28:21Z fouric: pillton: oh, thanks!
2018-03-01T05:29:11Z pillton: Note that proclaim is a function so you will have to quote the declarations.
2018-03-01T05:29:27Z smokeink: thanks for pointing that out pillton, I was using declaim in .sbclrc :D
2018-03-01T05:29:48Z fouric quotes
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2018-03-01T05:36:06Z fouric: smokeink: INTEGER-LENGTH does not include the sign bit
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2018-03-01T05:36:46Z fouric: actually, (INTEGER-LENGTH -15) => 4 but (INTEGER-LENGTH -16) => 4
2018-03-01T05:36:49Z fouric: ...that doesn't look right
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2018-03-01T05:37:18Z smokeink: why
2018-03-01T05:38:03Z smokeink: it's correct : you can represent -16 as 10111  where the 1st  one is the sign bit
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2018-03-01T05:38:32Z smokeink: 16 or 16's complement can fit into 4 bits after the sign bit
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2018-03-01T05:39:07Z smokeink: hm wait
2018-03-01T05:39:45Z fouric: "Returns the number of bits needed to represent integer in binary two's-complement format"
2018-03-01T05:39:50Z fouric: that *should* include the sign bit
2018-03-01T05:40:11Z smokeink: that description doesn't seem accurate to me
2018-03-01T05:40:15Z fouric: I agree.
2018-03-01T05:40:15Z beach: Negative numbers have an infinite number of leading 1s.
2018-03-01T05:40:40Z fouric: ...but you can't differentiate between negative and positive numbers without that sign bit, right?
2018-03-01T05:40:50Z beach: Right.
2018-03-01T05:41:02Z beach: fouric: sign BITs.
2018-03-01T05:41:14Z fouric: wat
2018-03-01T05:41:16Z beach: There is always an infinite number of 0s or an infinite number of 1s.
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2018-03-01T05:41:51Z fouric: OK, "sign bits", then.
2018-03-01T05:42:04Z smokeink: just one isn't enough ? is it really needed to have infinitely many ?
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2018-03-01T05:42:11Z fouric: Don't you still need 5 bits in order to represent -15?
2018-03-01T05:42:22Z smokeink: 16 in binary is 10000 , but we can represent it with 4 bits instead: 1111
2018-03-01T05:42:23Z beach: Notice that (integer-length -1) is 0
2018-03-01T05:42:29Z smokeink: because 1 can be represented as 0
2018-03-01T05:43:09Z smokeink: but I 'm not sure, maybe what I said is wrong
2018-03-01T05:43:23Z beach: For positive numbers, leading 0s are not counted.  For negative numbers, leading 1s are not counted.
2018-03-01T05:43:56Z smokeink: that must be the general convention, right? It's not just specific to common lisp
2018-03-01T05:44:01Z fouric: For the purposes of *representation*?
2018-03-01T05:44:15Z beach: smokeink: Not many languages have arbitrary precision integers.
2018-03-01T05:44:56Z beach: -16 is ....111110000 so (INTEGER-LENGTH -16) is 4.
2018-03-01T05:45:00Z fouric: beach: How do you disambiguate between positive and negative numbers if you're not counting those leading bits, then?
2018-03-01T05:45:33Z beach: fouric: integer-length is not meant to be used for distinguishing between positive and negative numbers.
2018-03-01T05:46:06Z fouric: What *is* it meant to be used for?
2018-03-01T05:46:06Z beach: fouric: What makes you think this information would be present in integer-length?
2018-03-01T05:46:32Z beach: fouric: Let me ask you this instead: what did you intend to use it for?
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2018-03-01T05:46:47Z fouric: Using it to calculate the number of bits that I need to store a number in memory.
2018-03-01T05:47:03Z beach: Then you need to add 1 to it.
2018-03-01T05:47:11Z fouric: ...so the description is wrong.
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2018-03-01T05:47:20Z fouric: "Returns the number of bits needed to represent integer in binary two's-complement format." implies that it actually gives you back the number of bits you need to store the number
2018-03-01T05:47:29Z fouric: if you need to add 1, then it's not giving you the number of bits you need to store the number
2018-03-01T05:47:39Z fouric: it's giving you the number of bits that you need to store the number, -1
2018-03-01T05:47:52Z fouric: so it should read "Returns one less than the number of bits needed to represent integer in binary two's-complement format"
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2018-03-01T05:49:40Z beach: fouric: You still need more than that, though.  You need to store the number of digits as well.
2018-03-01T05:49:55Z beach: ... in some form, like the length of the string or something.
2018-03-01T05:50:30Z beach: fouric: What representation for these bits in memory did you have in mind?
2018-03-01T05:51:05Z fouric: Two's-complement, with the sign bit leading the magnitude bits.
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2018-03-01T05:51:59Z beach: fouric: That is not well defined.  You also need to give the number of digits.
2018-03-01T05:52:14Z beach: In Common Lisp, the number of digits is not bounded.
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2018-03-01T05:52:52Z smokeink: beach: if we use a single sign BIT instead of infinitely many sign BITS, then isn't the number of digits evident ?
2018-03-01T05:52:54Z beach: fouric: Perhaps you are thinking of all that literature on computer architecture with finite precision.  Then that information is implicit.
2018-03-01T05:53:13Z smokeink: "-16 is ....111110000" , why 111110000 instead of just 10000 ?     (format t "~b" -16)
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2018-03-01T05:53:38Z beach: smokeink: No, because in memory, you would have to tell me how many digits I have the right to look at.
2018-03-01T05:53:45Z beach: Where is that information stored?
2018-03-01T05:53:52Z beach: Is it a string of digits?
2018-03-01T05:54:03Z beach: Then the information is present as the length of the string.
2018-03-01T05:54:15Z fouric: beach: the commonly used definition of "two's complement" doesn't say anything about storing the number of bits/size, only the sign bit and the mantissa.
2018-03-01T05:54:16Z smokeink: ok I got your point
2018-03-01T05:54:18Z beach: If it is not a string, you would have to tell me how those digits are stored.
2018-03-01T05:54:28Z beach: fouric: Not true.
2018-03-01T05:54:58Z beach: fouric: Either the size is implicit, as in 64-bit registers, or, in the case of Common Lisp, "unbounded".
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2018-03-01T05:56:42Z fouric: ...that makes quite a bit of sense, actually.
2018-03-01T05:56:42Z beach: fouric: The representation of (say) -2 in two's complement with 4 bits is 1110, but with 8 bits, it is 11111110.  They are not the same.
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2018-03-01T05:57:00Z beach: and in Common Lisp, it is ....111111110
2018-03-01T05:57:07Z beach: with an infinite number of leading 1s.
2018-03-01T05:57:23Z fouric: I guess that I was trying to think about two's-complement from a C perspective, where sizeof() a thing includes the sign bit.
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2018-03-01T05:58:01Z beach: Yes, that's what i meant by "computer architecture" literature.  C just reflects finite precision registers.
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2018-03-01T05:58:08Z beach: So the number of digits is implicit.
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2018-03-01T05:58:17Z beach: There is no such thing in Common Lisp.
2018-03-01T05:58:50Z fouric: Aight, that makes sense.
2018-03-01T05:58:58Z fouric: ...so then what *is* INTEGER-LENGTH used for?
2018-03-01T05:59:36Z smokeink: yes, that's the my question also :)
2018-03-01T06:00:12Z fouric: I was imagining it used for, say, calculating how many...
2018-03-01T06:00:18Z beach: You can use it for what you want, but you would have to supply more information, like the sign and the length.  Look, it is just a definition.  There are uses, for example if you want to use the logarithm that don't necessarily need the extra information.
2018-03-01T06:00:35Z smokeink: beach: actually I am trying to understand your (my-log ) function http://pastecode.ru/e4703e/
2018-03-01T06:00:53Z beach: smokeink: I can explain it if you like.
2018-03-01T06:01:18Z smokeink: (- (integer-length x) 100)  <- this part
2018-03-01T06:01:43Z beach: There, INTEGER-LENGTH just gives a rough idea of the number of significant digits.
2018-03-01T06:01:58Z beach: You can do plus or minus 10 if you like.  It won't matter.
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2018-03-01T06:02:52Z beach: Or, I could say it differently.  It gives an idea of the magnitude of the number.
2018-03-01T06:03:42Z smokeink: ok, so it's (- magnitude_or_no_of_digits 100)   , why minus ?   is this magnitude very huge, compared to 100 ?
2018-03-01T06:04:11Z fouric: beach: why does the standard say "two's-complement"?
2018-03-01T06:04:19Z beach: When I divide by N I have a number with an infinite number of 0s followed by 100 digits.
2018-03-01T06:04:33Z beach: fouric: Because that's what it uses.
2018-03-01T06:04:44Z fouric: ...but that's irrelevant if you're not storing the sign bit anyway, right?
2018-03-01T06:04:54Z fouric: Erm, including the sign bit in the result.
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2018-03-01T06:05:55Z beach: fouric: I have no idea what you are talking about.  The standard says nothing about how numbers are stored.
2018-03-01T06:06:23Z beach: fouric: Conceptually, in Common Lisp, a positive number is represented as an infinite number of leading 0s.
2018-03-01T06:06:38Z beach: fouric: Negative numbers are just like counting down from 0.
2018-03-01T06:07:01Z smokeink: fouric: it's two complement, but the no of digits is not fixed so we don't bother counting the sign bit/bits
2018-03-01T06:07:03Z beach: So -1 is .....000000000 - 1, which is ....11111111
2018-03-01T06:07:32Z beach: -2 is .......000000000 - 00000010 which is .......111111110
2018-03-01T06:07:33Z beach: etc.
2018-03-01T06:08:24Z beach: smokeink: 100 is the resulting magnitude if you divide the number by 2^N which I do by shifting right.
2018-03-01T06:09:09Z beach: fouric: Perhaps you have learned that you can get the 2s complement by inverting all the digits and then adding 1?  That works here too.
2018-03-01T06:09:30Z fouric observes
2018-03-01T06:09:58Z beach: To compute -2, take 2 which is ........00000010, then invert all the digits, which gives ....1111111111101.  Finally add 1, which gives .......11111111110
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2018-03-01T06:10:51Z fouric: Two's-complement with infinitely sized integers makes sense, I get that.
2018-03-01T06:11:05Z beach: And it does not make sense with finite ones.
2018-03-01T06:11:22Z fouric: How so?
2018-03-01T06:11:31Z fouric: Erm, s/integers/registers
2018-03-01T06:13:21Z beach: Because you get overflow sometimes.
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2018-03-01T06:14:24Z fouric: Fair.
2018-03-01T06:16:42Z beach: fouric: I went through the same steps as you a few decades ago.  Now I know that infinite precision is simple and it always works.  Finite precision is weird with some special cases, and it only works sometimes.  Furthermore, infinite precision works in any base.  You can represent -2 as ....9999998 in base 10 for example.
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2018-03-01T06:18:01Z fouric: Ooh, that's *neat*.
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2018-03-01T06:18:13Z fouric: OK, I think I understand what you mean.
2018-03-01T06:18:26Z fouric: ...perhaps not *grok* it, but then again I'm probably younger than you've been Lisping.
2018-03-01T06:18:32Z fouric: Thanks for patiently explaining!
2018-03-01T06:19:09Z smokeink: (= 0 (integer-length 0) (integer-length -1)) ==> T   , because 0 is conceptually an infinite string of 0s and -1 an infinite string of 1s  , right?
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2018-03-01T06:41:29Z flip214: ELS registration isn't possible yet, is it?
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2018-03-01T06:52:44Z beach: fouric: Anytime.  And while I remember, the reason the invert-and-add-1 trick is working (both ways) is this:  -x is 0 - x which is -1 - x + 1, and -1 is an infinite sequence of 1s so -1 - x means invert all the bits in x.  Then finally add 1.
2018-03-01T06:52:58Z beach: smokeink: Correct.
2018-03-01T06:53:18Z beach: smokeink: And since leading 0s and leading 1s do not count, you get 0 in both cases.
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2018-03-01T06:54:46Z smokeink: is there a way to express (remove-if (lambda (x) (member x '(a b c))) '(a b c d e f)) in a more compact or performant way ?
2018-03-01T06:55:14Z beach: Don't think so.
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2018-03-01T06:56:20Z phoe: clhs set-difference
2018-03-01T06:56:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm
2018-03-01T06:57:03Z phoe: (set-difference '(a b c d e f) '(a b c)) ;=> (F E D)
2018-03-01T06:57:14Z phoe: note that this destroys order of elements.
2018-03-01T06:57:53Z smokeink: thanks
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2018-03-01T07:00:15Z beach: smokeink: So my LOG (really lb) computation works like this: Pick an N (I'll tell you soon how).  Now, lb(x) = lb(2^N * x / 2^N) = lb(2^N) + lb(x / 2^N) = N + lb(x / 2^N).  Pick N so that x / 2^N is between 0 and around 2^100.  That way, when you convert it to a double float, your float will be the closest possible, so no rounding error other than what is intrinsic to the float.  Furthermore, it will not overflow, because the magnitude
2018-03-01T07:00:15Z beach: is small-ish.  So pick N as (- (integer-length x) 100).  Finally, compute x / 2^N by shifting x right N positions.
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2018-03-01T07:05:18Z beach: smokeink: If your lists are very large, you can use a hash table instead.
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2018-03-01T07:19:22Z Shinmera: pillton: fouric: The current Colleen is no longer based on the "colleen" project, but rather on http://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden
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2018-03-01T07:19:41Z fouric: kk ty
2018-03-01T07:20:11Z Shinmera: Which also has a lookup module similar to what specbot does. https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/tree/master/agents/lookup
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2018-03-01T08:22:05Z smokeink: beach: I understood your description , thank you.
2018-03-01T08:23:46Z hajovonta: hello!
2018-03-01T08:24:35Z smokeink: hi
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2018-03-01T08:29:25Z myrkraverk: My usual (return this as string) is (format nil "~a" (this as string)) ;; is there a different way?
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2018-03-01T08:29:59Z myrkraverk: As in, something like (return-as-string foo) ;; which may not be any metter.
2018-03-01T08:30:02Z myrkraverk: *better
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2018-03-01T08:49:45Z _death: clhs princ-to-string
2018-03-01T08:49:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm
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2018-03-01T08:52:44Z beach: rme: This is the beginning of a write-up of some thoughts I had about register allocation this morning.  I will fill in the rest and also give examples of how it behaves, in particular for loops and such.  http://metamodular.com/register-allocation.pdf
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2018-03-01T09:15:12Z hajovonta: myrkraverk: (write 12)
2018-03-01T09:15:27Z hajovonta: or write-to-string
2018-03-01T09:15:59Z hajovonta: recently I found myself using the format version almost exclusively.
2018-03-01T09:16:36Z hajovonta: this is because when later I want to insert something, it's easy to do with a format control string, but not so easy with other ways of printing.
2018-03-01T09:17:35Z hajovonta: for example I write (format t "This is something") and I later realize that I want to replace "something" with some value, I can easily edit this to (format t "This is ~a" val)
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2018-03-01T09:18:09Z hajovonta: I do this often so using format is beneficial, but your mileage may vary
2018-03-01T09:19:06Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I was just wondering if I should replace my (format nil s) but maybe there's no need.
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2018-03-01T09:23:33Z _death: yesterday I found myself ad-hoc extending my "out" facility with operators to generate C++.. format would never do there.. for example, (out (:fn "Foo" ("int a" "int b") "void")) would print "void Foo(int a, int b)"
2018-03-01T09:26:00Z myrkraverk: Well, fortunately, my output operations aren't that complicated.
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2018-03-01T09:26:00Z jackdaniel: _death: out from ytools?
2018-03-01T09:27:09Z jackdaniel: btw, someone asked some time ago about tries to make Lisp more bearable, YTools was yet another one, forgot to mention it
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2018-03-01T09:27:39Z Shinmera: _death: I used format for my GLSL printer, which worked just fine with a little tweak to make a ~// directive shorter. https://github.com/Shirakumo/glsl-toolkit/blob/master/printer.lisp
2018-03-01T09:27:52Z _death: jackdaniel: my own variant.. I plan on tweaking it a bit soon.. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/731#731 another example
2018-03-01T09:28:08Z smokeink:  beach: What's wrong with doing just (1- (integer-length x)) for calculating binary log of x ? It seems to give the same result as (lb) and CL's (log) , and it's faster
2018-03-01T09:28:39Z jackdaniel: mhm, I like `out' as proposed in the mentioned library, just didn't have time to switch yet :)
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2018-03-01T09:29:09Z smokeink: *the same results even for big numbers
2018-03-01T09:29:12Z beach: smokeink: Then you will have very few significant digits left.
2018-03-01T09:30:01Z beach: smokeink: Like, if you shift x to the right by that many position, you have only a 1 or a 0 left.
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2018-03-01T09:30:30Z _death: I got rid of my :u for "user-defined operators" because it was too verbose.. thinking I should just let the user define nonkeyword operators the same way "built-in" keyword ones are defined
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2018-03-01T09:32:59Z beach: smokeink: Er, always a 1 I think.  So you might as well just use the integer length.
2018-03-01T09:33:02Z _death: also, even though I was amazed that it worked well enough yesterday, I still wonder if a template approach would've worked better, as it did work well some other time I had to generate C++ code
2018-03-01T09:33:57Z beach: smokeink: Perhaps you tested it only for powers of 2?
2018-03-01T09:34:06Z _death: Shinmera: with that in mind, I looked at clip yesterday, but I realized it's for html and not text in general :/
2018-03-01T09:34:07Z smokeink: tested with powers of 3 also
2018-03-01T09:34:35Z Shinmera: _death: Sorry, I guess?
2018-03-01T09:34:45Z beach: smokeink: I don't get the same result for powers of 3.
2018-03-01T09:35:05Z _death: Shinmera: heh, I expected some "oh, but I use <insert-name-here> to generate text" ;)
2018-03-01T09:35:18Z Shinmera: _death: You could still use it but just output the text content of the HTML, though I can't advise that.
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2018-03-01T09:35:57Z Shinmera: I don't often have the need to generate text that isn't some other properly defined format for which specialised libraries exist.
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2018-03-01T09:36:40Z _death: I wrote my own template thing some time ago, but it really was a toy.. even something like _.template in js would work well
2018-03-01T09:37:02Z beach: smokeink: Show your complete definition, please?
2018-03-01T09:37:23Z smokeink: beach: sure, 1 sec, I'm arranging it a bit
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2018-03-01T09:41:33Z smokeink: beach: http://pastecode.ru/b600e6/
2018-03-01T09:42:26Z smokeink I'll be back in 2-3 hours , I'm around here but not always looking at the pc 
2018-03-01T09:42:38Z beach: That's still 100 minus.
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2018-03-01T09:43:29Z beach: Oh, I see.  LIke I said, you lost all the decimals.
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2018-03-01T09:49:58Z smokeink: yes, the decimals are all lost and the result is rounded. So your function is faster than CL's (log) and it's suited for high precision calculations
2018-03-01T09:50:42Z beach: Oh, I didn't realize mine was faster than the implementation one.
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2018-03-01T09:51:03Z beach: But yeah, it is not serious to suggest a function that loses that much precision.
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2018-03-01T09:59:59Z flip214: I'd need help for Postmodern, please. How would I pass the JSON operators in a WHERE clause? ... :where (= "a" (:->> json-column json-field))
2018-03-01T10:00:02Z flip214: doesn't work
2018-03-01T10:00:20Z flip214: I guess I need to define/register the new functions myself?!
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2018-03-01T10:02:55Z flip214: (postmodern:register-sql-operators :2+-ary  :->>)
2018-03-01T10:03:01Z flip214: seems to do the trick
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2018-03-01T10:08:23Z rme: beach: thank you. I put it on my list of bookmarks to review.
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2018-03-01T10:09:24Z jackdaniel: psst, CLIM app on the terminal http://hellsgate.pl/files/816ec12b
2018-03-01T10:09:52Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I better blog about my postmodern operators some day, if I haven't already.
2018-03-01T10:09:54Z jackdaniel: (just wip, I'm just very happy it worked)
2018-03-01T10:10:28Z beach: rme: It is not finished.  I have to think about how to merge two or more maps.
2018-03-01T10:11:11Z smokeink: jackdaniel: nice
2018-03-01T10:11:19Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2018-03-01T10:11:33Z schweers: jackdaniel: do you use curses or something similar?
2018-03-01T10:11:41Z schweers: btw: seems cool!
2018-03-01T10:11:52Z smokeink: I can't wait to use mcclim to code some nice shit for the terminal
2018-03-01T10:12:13Z jackdaniel: schweers: yes, cl-charms. I've written a tutorial for it lately btw (see turtleware.eu)
2018-03-01T10:12:42Z schweers: thanks, I’ll put in on my todo ilst
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2018-03-01T10:13:32Z smokeink: btw (ql:quickload :cl-readline) fails on my machine, cffi can't find the .so's in /usr/lib ...
2018-03-01T10:16:11Z smokeink: so I'll try this approach instead keens.github.io/blog/2016/02/14/readlinenotsukurikata/
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2018-03-01T10:18:16Z smokeink: https://code.google.com/archive/p/termbox/wikis/Rationale.wiki
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2018-03-01T10:22:31Z Ekkie: Quick question, I wanna start getting into lisp, but I'm forced to windows... Which implementation do you guys recommend?
2018-03-01T10:24:23Z jackdaniel: free implementations have decent windows support, you'll be fine with sbcl
2018-03-01T10:24:41Z jackdaniel: you may check out portacle for preconfigured programming environment
2018-03-01T10:24:49Z jackdaniel: https://portacle.github.io/
2018-03-01T10:24:57Z jackdaniel: Ekkie: ^
2018-03-01T10:25:18Z Ekkie: Oh sweet, thanks!
2018-03-01T10:25:34Z Ekkie: Though I heard that multithreading is experimental in sbcl, should I be worried about that?
2018-03-01T10:26:12Z jackdaniel: not until you hit some problem with it
2018-03-01T10:26:33Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Ekkie about pcl
2018-03-01T10:26:33Z minion: Ekkie: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2018-03-01T10:26:37Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Ekkie about paip
2018-03-01T10:26:38Z minion: Ekkie: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
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2018-03-01T10:26:51Z jackdaniel: paip was recently released for download
2018-03-01T10:27:18Z jackdaniel: http://lispblog.xach.com/post/171379263493/paradigms-of-ai-programming-is-now-available-as-a ← read this :)
2018-03-01T10:27:35Z Ekkie: Will do, thankee!
2018-03-01T10:28:07Z jackdaniel: sure
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2018-03-01T10:29:16Z Shinmera: Ekkie: No, SBCL works fine on Windows for almost everything
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2018-03-01T10:29:51Z Ekkie: Oooh sweet.
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2018-03-01T12:28:59Z shka: hello everyone
2018-03-01T12:29:47Z schweers: Hi shka
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2018-03-01T13:00:20Z Selwyn: Hello all
2018-03-01T13:00:37Z Selwyn: I plan to go to the ELS in April
2018-03-01T13:00:49Z Selwyn: Is it necessary to register beforehand?
2018-03-01T13:01:32Z Shinmera: Registration will open in a few days and yes.
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2018-03-01T13:02:55Z Selwyn: great thanks
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2018-03-01T13:31:32Z Shinmera hopes the registration will go smoothly or it'll be his neck on the line
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2018-03-01T13:33:55Z rme: No worries; worst case you process it all manually, right?
2018-03-01T13:34:12Z Shinmera: No, worst case money or registrations get lost.
2018-03-01T13:34:38Z Shinmera: I don't think they will, but I'm always scared of having fucked up
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2018-03-01T13:36:34Z flip214: Shinmera: worst case is "come to ELS and pay cash, we'll have a paper for you to write your name on"
2018-03-01T13:36:51Z jdz: I'm not so sure why people get upset when their money disappears.
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2018-03-01T13:38:55Z Shinmera: jdz: You are welcome to disappear some of your money into my pockets any time
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2018-03-01T13:53:53Z beach: rme: What I wrote needs more work before it is worth your time.
2018-03-01T13:56:03Z rme: OK, no problem.
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2018-03-01T13:57:00Z beach: I'll read up on linear scan first.
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2018-03-01T15:24:50Z flip214: With postmodern, is there a way to have a basic SQL statement in one place (selection of fields) and append a (S-sql) WHERE clause that gets derived dynamically?
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2018-03-01T15:29:49Z billstclair: sbcl.org is responding to ping requests, but refusing connections on ports 80 (http) and 443 (https). Anybody know what’s up?
2018-03-01T15:30:42Z billstclair: Or know which commit at https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl is the 1.4.5 release. Tags have been missing there for a very long time.
2018-03-01T15:30:48Z Shinmera: When in doubt blame sourceforge
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2018-03-01T15:32:00Z billstclair: Duh. It’s on the releases page.
2018-03-01T15:32:17Z billstclair: “Never mind.” — Rosanne Rosanadana
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2018-03-01T17:06:47Z SaganMan: Morning!
2018-03-01T17:08:04Z beach: Hello SaganMan.
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2018-03-01T17:43:17Z SaganMan: Hello beach. How are you?
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2018-03-01T17:44:55Z beach: SaganMan: Fine, but busy now.  Got to fix dinner.  Take care.
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2018-03-01T18:37:37Z borodust: Xach: bodge-nanovg is missing from quicklisp :(
2018-03-01T18:37:43Z borodust: Xach: from this issue: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1447
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2018-03-01T19:31:27Z emaczen: Im building an executable and after I copy my program to another computer and run it, it is fine until it executes some code that uses a defparameter defined in terms of (user-homedir-pathname) -- since this path is different on a different computer
2018-03-01T19:31:33Z emaczen: What are the common practices associated with this problem?
2018-03-01T19:33:34Z shrdlu68: emaczen: Run a couple of "initializing" routines that redefine these parameters.
2018-03-01T19:34:39Z emaczen: shrdlu68: I thought about that, I guess that isn't so bad since I shouldn't have so many path variables...
2018-03-01T19:34:56Z emaczen: emaczen: I was afraid of going through so many defparameter forms in every apckage
2018-03-01T19:35:23Z emaczen: Is there a SLIME command to show me all defparameter forms that are in memory?
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2018-03-01T19:35:37Z Bike: no. i mean it's not just defparameter either.
2018-03-01T19:35:50Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah it is macros too
2018-03-01T19:36:00Z shrdlu68: emaczen: Create a defparameter macro that takes a function to call while initializing.
2018-03-01T19:36:15Z Bike: you need to delay the computation of user-homedir-pathname until the executable is loaded.
2018-03-01T19:36:42Z Bike: If you have (defparameter whatever (user-homedir-pathname)) it will be computed as you load your script to dump an image, unfortunately.
2018-03-01T19:36:57Z shrdlu68: emaczen: https://github.com/next-browser/next/blob/master/next/source/macro.lisp#L52
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2018-03-01T19:43:54Z emaczen: Cool, that gave me some ideas.
2018-03-01T19:44:06Z emaczen: I'm going to create a macro called with-laziness
2018-03-01T19:44:16Z emaczen: to wrap around those kinds of forms
2018-03-01T19:44:51Z phoe: Bike: ASDF has hooks that it calls when an image is loaded.
2018-03-01T19:45:07Z phoe: You can push a (lambda () (setf whatever (user-homedir-pathname))) in there.
2018-03-01T19:45:09Z Bike: oh, well, there you go then
2018-03-01T19:45:17Z phoe: Or rather, UIOP, not ASDF.
2018-03-01T19:45:42Z phoe: If you use the UIOP functions of producing an image, then you're golden, it will take care of the rest.
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2018-03-01T20:30:33Z pjb: emaczen: there are also implementation specific hooks to initialize or reset things upon various occurences, such as image saving, imagine launching etc.  cf. you r implementation.  But of course, in the case of global variables, they should be initialized from an initialized function called from your main function, instead of when loading the sources!
2018-03-01T20:30:49Z pjb: (or worse, when compiling them).
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2018-03-01T20:33:59Z phoe: pjb: or as defined initialization hooks
2018-03-01T20:34:06Z phoe: that run before the main function after the image is unfrozen
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2018-03-01T20:38:49Z pjb: phoe: yes.  That said, I find that I don't always call initialize the first thing in main: it may depend on the command line arguments or some other context.
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2018-03-01T20:39:19Z phoe: pjb: yes, hooks are for invariants.
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2018-03-01T21:21:37Z jmercouris: Is there an OS agnostic way of including files with a compiled lisp other than compiling the contents of the files into the lisp image?
2018-03-01T21:22:14Z jmercouris: I ask because when building on OSX for example, you'll produce an app bundle that contains a resources dir, I know this is different on linux, etc
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2018-03-01T21:24:49Z pjb: jmercouris: resource directories can be used on any OS.
2018-03-01T21:25:09Z pjb: jmercouris: the only thing that is OS dependent, is to locate this directory!
2018-03-01T21:25:37Z pjb: jmercouris: however, using getpwd and $0 let you find it usually. (Even if it is not "standard" as per POSIX).
2018-03-01T21:25:53Z pjb: err, you may also have to scan $PATH.
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2018-03-01T21:27:06Z stacksmith: depending on what you are doing, asdf:system-relative-pathname may be helpful.
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2018-03-01T21:28:08Z pjb: stacksmith: we're talking about installed executables on a user system!  There's no source left!
2018-03-01T21:28:41Z pjb: the portable way to do it is to have an installation procedure, and to save that path in the launching script.
2018-03-01T21:29:00Z stacksmith: I wasn't sure what 'a compiled lisp' is...
2018-03-01T21:30:01Z pjb: Using asdf:system-relative-pathname would be useful to load the data into the lisp image, but this is what was excluded by jmercouris.
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2018-03-01T21:32:05Z jmercouris: sorry about that, my connection died, checking the logs now
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2018-03-01T21:32:52Z jmercouris: stacksmith: a compiled lisp is a persisted lisp image that can be loaded by the kernel
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2018-03-01T21:33:06Z jmercouris: usually this is done to package for distribution of lisp apps
2018-03-01T21:33:26Z aeth: Linux/Unix (except for macOS) follows the XDG Base Directory Specification, so (by default) ~/.local/share/, ~/.cache/, and ~/.config/ are used (although far too many apps violate it, and it's annoying to have random directories pop up that should be in ~/.local/share/). I think that's it, though.
2018-03-01T21:33:49Z Shinmera: I would ABCL jar/wars under the cover of "compiled lisp" but it can't be loaded directly by the kernel!
2018-03-01T21:33:51Z aeth: A locally installed binary is frequently under ~/bin, which many (but not all) distros respect.
2018-03-01T21:33:54Z pjb: resources are application specific; they're system-wide.
2018-03-01T21:33:58Z jmercouris: aeth: I am using those standard directories in my application, should I bundle the copying of files to those dirs as part of an installation step?
2018-03-01T21:34:26Z aeth: jmercouris: One possible solution would be to put it in ~/.local/share/, I guess.
2018-03-01T21:34:40Z aeth: It's kind of used as a catch-all for misc things.
2018-03-01T21:34:50Z jmercouris: aeth: but when exactly? as what part? part of an installer script or?
2018-03-01T21:34:58Z pjb: usually installed in /usr/share or /usr/lib for applications installed in /usr/bin.  But on OpenStep systems, it's installed in the application bundle, in /Application/$APPNAME.app/Contents/Resources/  where the executable is in /Application/$APPNAME.app/Contents/$SYSTEM/$APPNAME
2018-03-01T21:35:20Z jmercouris: pjb: Those are the paths I am familiar with yeah, do you think I should just check those paths?
2018-03-01T21:35:29Z pjb: Definitely not.
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2018-03-01T21:35:34Z jmercouris: check for the existence of those paths, and then act accordingly?
2018-03-01T21:35:38Z Shinmera: Just use argv0
2018-03-01T21:35:39Z pjb: Applications can be installed anywhere.
2018-03-01T21:35:49Z jmercouris: Shinmera: can you expand on that?
2018-03-01T21:36:00Z pjb: ~/Application /System/Library/Applications etc.
2018-03-01T21:36:10Z pjb: There are even applications inside applications!
2018-03-01T21:36:18Z Shinmera: The list of arguments any application gets on launching includes a zeroth argument that is the location of the binary itself.
2018-03-01T21:36:22Z jmercouris: ok fine, so my app bundle, or binary could be located literally anywhere on the system, this is true
2018-03-01T21:36:40Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ok, but knowing where the binary is, what should I do with that?
2018-03-01T21:36:48Z pjb: So on OpenStep system, you just use the -[NSApplication mainBundle] method.
2018-03-01T21:36:58Z Shinmera: Uh, use it as a path to construct where your resources are?
2018-03-01T21:36:59Z jmercouris: should I distribute the binary inside an app bundle on Linux as well, and then find a relative path to the resource I'm looking for?
2018-03-01T21:37:25Z pjb: jmercouris: On the other systems, as mentionned abouve, you would have an installation script, that would generate the launching script with hardcoded directories.
2018-03-01T21:37:27Z jmercouris: I guess my big issue here is, where do Linux apps keep resources that are non-binary?
2018-03-01T21:37:33Z jmercouris: I know nothing about this
2018-03-01T21:37:41Z jmercouris: ok, so the install script
2018-03-01T21:37:41Z Shinmera: Depends on how you do things.
2018-03-01T21:37:50Z pjb: jmercouris: This launching script would have to be updated when you move the application (but this is not something users tend to do on such systems).
2018-03-01T21:37:53Z jmercouris: How would Shinmera do thins?
2018-03-01T21:37:58Z jmercouris: s/thins/things*
2018-03-01T21:38:05Z pjb: jmercouris: there are no Linux app. This is not a notion.
2018-03-01T21:38:32Z jmercouris: pjb: okay, so a linux executable, where does it store its non-binary resources?
2018-03-01T21:38:40Z pjb: jmercouris: in general on unix, "applications" would be installed in /opt.  /opt/$APPLICATION/*/
2018-03-01T21:38:42Z Shinmera: I usually don't bother with making installations, and instead just ship a zip with the exe and a resource directory.
2018-03-01T21:39:05Z jmercouris: ~/.local/share/application-name? and the files are copied by install script?
2018-03-01T21:39:18Z jmercouris: Shinmera: on Linux as well?
2018-03-01T21:39:21Z pjb: Nope. This directory is for user specific files.
2018-03-01T21:39:23Z Shinmera: Especially on Linux
2018-03-01T21:39:27Z pjb: Read the XDG standard!
2018-03-01T21:39:35Z jmercouris: I've read and forgotten it :D
2018-03-01T21:39:45Z jmercouris: I believe there is a dir for system files
2018-03-01T21:39:48Z Shinmera: On OS X I might bother with making a .app, but then all that changes is the relative path to the resource directory, so it's nbd
2018-03-01T21:40:05Z jmercouris: xdg-data-home
2018-03-01T21:40:24Z aeth: Well, what I've seen ~/.local/share/foo used for as far as data goes is overriding the data. i.e. any sort of add-ons/modifications/etc. are stored there, which override the data, which is installed globally for / or fake-globally for the user.
2018-03-01T21:40:26Z jmercouris: Ok, so you are relying on your users launching from within your zip folder
2018-03-01T21:40:33Z Shinmera: Anyway, nowadays I Just use https://shinmera.github.io/deploy/ 's DATA-DIRECTORY, which does all of this for me.
2018-03-01T21:40:49Z Shinmera: (including creating the .app structure on OS X)
2018-03-01T21:40:53Z jmercouris: Shinmera: how would a user take your folder and put it in their path to make something launchable?
2018-03-01T21:40:58Z pjb: jmercouris: don't! Have an installation script that will generate the laucnhing script with the hard coded path!
2018-03-01T21:41:11Z Shinmera: jmercouris: They symlink, or augment PATH, or just double-click on the exe.
2018-03-01T21:41:13Z aeth: pjb: then what happens when the user moves the binary?
2018-03-01T21:41:23Z pjb: He doesn't: he doesn't have root access…
2018-03-01T21:41:25Z pjb: :-)
2018-03-01T21:41:27Z aeth: If it's installed under ~, moving the binary is a very likely situation eventually.
2018-03-01T21:41:37Z aeth: And installing things globally is increasingly uncommon
2018-03-01T21:41:42Z pjb: Then he has to run the installation script again to update the path.
2018-03-01T21:41:46Z jmercouris: Okay, I think the folder path seems the best, linux users will just symlink to their path then
2018-03-01T21:41:49Z jmercouris: that is very logical
2018-03-01T21:41:51Z aeth: (at least, globally installing things when it's not bundled with your distro)
2018-03-01T21:42:05Z jmercouris: it also feels close to the idea of an "app" like it does in OSX for me
2018-03-01T21:42:06Z pjb: OR, you can use the system specific procedure to locate the path of the executable.
2018-03-01T21:42:32Z pjb: Since you will support only a very small number of systems, you can do that.
2018-03-01T21:42:58Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how many systems I will support, but whatever is easiest/works I will do
2018-03-01T21:43:09Z jmercouris: I don't think there's a huge penalty to the folder idea, at least none that I can think of
2018-03-01T21:43:39Z jmercouris: Thanks for the input everyone
2018-03-01T21:44:08Z pjb: jmercouris: also, you're talking of linux app, but this doesn't exist, as I said.  You may want to consider KDE apps, or gnome apps, or GNUstep apps, etc.
2018-03-01T21:44:26Z pjb: Then you have rules and tools to install the applications and locate resources.
2018-03-01T21:46:11Z aeth: pjb: Apps have never been more uniform imo. Well, besides the odd random one that will shove everything in /opt/
2018-03-01T21:46:15Z jmercouris: pjb: Can Gnome apps not just be standalone binaries? I don't think they require extra installation steps?
2018-03-01T21:46:33Z pjb: I don't know.  Follow the rules.
2018-03-01T21:47:10Z aeth: jmercouris: I haven't seen standalone binaries. I have seen standalone directories.
2018-03-01T21:47:28Z jmercouris: aeth: damn, looks like linux distribution will still be a pain then :D
2018-03-01T21:47:40Z jmercouris: I guess I'll worry about that when I start with the GTK side of things
2018-03-01T21:47:43Z aeth: This can work: ~/wherever/foo, where ~/wherever/foo/foo is the executable and then there's a ~/wherever/foo/data
2018-03-01T21:48:01Z pjb: jmercouris: as I said, you may want to distribute KDE, GNUstep, Gnome, GTK, or other kind of application.
2018-03-01T21:48:06Z jmercouris: The thing is I'm not making a GTK app, I'm making a Lisp app which will launch a GTK app
2018-03-01T21:48:13Z pjb: For raw unix, provide an installation script that will generate the launching script with hard coded paths.
2018-03-01T21:48:17Z jmercouris: and the "GTK app" is the client..
2018-03-01T21:48:27Z pjb: You can install by default in /opt/$APPNAME/, or allow the user to specify a path.
2018-03-01T21:48:31Z jmercouris: I'll think about this more later as I get closer
2018-03-01T21:48:36Z aeth: jmercouris: You could try using Flatpak
2018-03-01T21:48:40Z jmercouris: it's too soon right now to consider all these details
2018-03-01T21:48:49Z jmercouris: aeth: Yes, a lot of people told me about flatpak as well
2018-03-01T21:49:04Z jmercouris: aeth: that might be a way to do things to package the "client" side of the app
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2018-03-01T21:50:12Z pjb: Also, if you want to integrate with the various application frameworks, your code will have to be different.
2018-03-01T21:51:20Z aeth: As far as no install apps go, ime they're almost always $0 games, and I just extract the directory to ~/Games/game-name/ and the binary is ~/Games/game-name/game-name, which handles loading the resources from elsewhere in the game-name directory.
2018-03-01T21:52:18Z aeth: But that's about equally as common as compiling something yourself or running an install shell script
2018-03-01T21:52:29Z jmercouris: yep
2018-03-01T21:52:37Z jmercouris: I've had experience with both ways
2018-03-01T21:52:48Z jmercouris: Just not had the experience bundling in both ways :D
2018-03-01T21:53:25Z Shinmera: Anything on linux that requires an installation script to be run immediately makes me just want to delete it instead.
2018-03-01T21:53:39Z aeth: Games are probably the most likely to go with the shell script or the precompiled compressed file that's extracted to directory approach because then they don't have to give you the source. They also potentially have complicated dependencies.
2018-03-01T21:53:58Z aeth: The older ones are more likely to do the script. The newer ones are more likely to do the latter, because the trust for scripts and the trust for installing things as root has gone way, way, way down
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2018-03-01T21:54:41Z jmercouris: Shinmera: will argv0 still return the correct path when executing from a symlink?
2018-03-01T21:54:50Z jmercouris: or will it return the path of the symlink?
2018-03-01T21:55:28Z pjb: jmercouris: https://pastebin.com/8xbXgbGd
2018-03-01T21:56:51Z Shinmera: jmercouris: It could be a symlink (or even empty!) so use the TRUENAME of it instead.
2018-03-01T21:57:27Z Shinmera: Or UIOP:RESOLVE-SYMLINKS
2018-03-01T21:57:41Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm not sure what this is illustrating, your prompt is very confusing
2018-03-01T21:58:01Z aeth: hmm, I think Firefox goes with the directory without a script approach, but it has been a long time since I used one of their alphas/betas
2018-03-01T21:58:03Z pjb: jmercouris: but: https://pastebin.com/XamSsufd
2018-03-01T21:58:06Z jmercouris: you're compiling arg0, it returns the wrong path? but somehow later the correct one?
2018-03-01T21:58:12Z pjb: jmercouris: you can edit it.
2018-03-01T21:58:33Z pjb: jmercouris: actually you should copy the source and try it yourself on your systems!
2018-03-01T21:58:48Z pjb: jmercouris: but as the last example shows, the problem is that you're fucked if you rely on that.
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2018-03-01T21:59:10Z jmercouris: Shinmera: deploy tool looks really nice, if it handles that, might as well use it
2018-03-01T21:59:24Z pjb: jmercouris: this is why the right thing to do is to write an installation script that generates a launch script with hardwired paths!
2018-03-01T21:59:38Z pjb: jmercouris: hardwired paths passed as argument to the binary, of course.
2018-03-01T22:00:17Z pjb: jmercouris: just see how ccl does it!
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2018-03-01T22:00:23Z pjb: cat /usr/local/bin/ccl
2018-03-01T22:02:01Z jmercouris: pjb: CCL had me make a shell script that points to the CCL installation directory in /usr/local/src/ccl
2018-03-01T22:02:07Z jmercouris: I think we have a different CCL setup
2018-03-01T22:02:13Z aeth: pjb: An installation script is fragile. (1) How do you move it? (2) How do you remove it? (3) How do you upgrade it? (Yes! This is sometimes nontrivial!) (4) How do you deal with a local install? (5) How do you trust it for a global install?
2018-03-01T22:02:34Z pjb: aeth: your installation script has an option to update the launch script when you move it.
2018-03-01T22:02:42Z pjb: The launch script can be moved as you want.
2018-03-01T22:02:56Z aeth: Oh, and if it's in shell, the script might not even be written properly.
2018-03-01T22:02:57Z jmercouris: pjb: I appreciate the idea, but this sounds too complex for ordinary users
2018-03-01T22:03:18Z pjb: aeth: unix systems are multi users systems with an administrator and root access rights.   Random users cannot randomly mess with the system.
2018-03-01T22:03:33Z pjb: jmercouris: then see above, you're fucked.
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2018-03-01T22:03:54Z pjb: You can make automatic things but they won't be 100% foolproof.
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2018-03-01T22:04:00Z pjb: And since you want to cater to fools…
2018-03-01T22:04:10Z stacksmith: :)
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2018-03-01T22:05:09Z jmercouris: Shinmera: in this section: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy#extending-deployment-and-boot-behaviour
2018-03-01T22:05:21Z jmercouris: Shinmera: are these meant to be places within the defsystem?
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2018-03-01T22:05:54Z Shinmera: "With the define-hook macro you can add functions that are executed during various points of the process. Specifically, the following types are available:"
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2018-03-01T22:06:15Z jmercouris: Yeah, I read that, can I define hooks in the asd? or must they be in source files?
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2018-03-01T22:06:36Z Shinmera: Why would you define hooks in the ASD
2018-03-01T22:06:40Z jmercouris: Dude, I don't know
2018-03-01T22:06:43Z jmercouris: I'm just asking if it is possible
2018-03-01T22:06:50Z Shinmera: I mean you can put whatever you want in the ASD but it's not a good idea
2018-03-01T22:06:53Z jmercouris: like "build" steps
2018-03-01T22:07:44Z jmercouris: where do you usually put your "build" functions then?
2018-03-01T22:07:48Z jmercouris: you have a separate file?
2018-03-01T22:08:07Z Shinmera: I typically have a file that describes extra behaviour in standalone mode.
2018-03-01T22:08:17Z Shinmera: So that's a natural place to put these hooks.
2018-03-01T22:08:49Z pjb: jmercouris: there are different environments.  The environment where asd if loaded and executed is not the compilation environment! (not necessarily, certainly not if we forked new lisp images to perform the compiling, from asdf).
2018-03-01T22:08:54Z jmercouris: hmm, I do something similar for OSX specific code as part of a separate system that I use for building
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2018-03-01T22:09:29Z jmercouris: Shinmera: don't take this is a criticism, it is just a question, why not have another system called "standalone" that depends on your core system that contains these files?
2018-03-01T22:09:46Z pjb: Yes, I use a separate build script.  generate-application.lisp in general.
2018-03-01T22:09:59Z jmercouris: Shinmera: am I making sense, or not really?
2018-03-01T22:10:35Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Because I don't making lots of sysems.
2018-03-01T22:10:41Z Shinmera: Fuck
2018-03-01T22:10:46Z jmercouris: yeah, it's fine
2018-03-01T22:10:47Z Shinmera: *Because I don't like making lots of systems
2018-03-01T22:10:49Z jmercouris: I think we know what you meant
2018-03-01T22:10:54Z pjb: When generating an application, you want to be extra careful about what you load in your lisp image.  And you want it to be reproductible!
2018-03-01T22:11:32Z jmercouris: pjb: that's why I have my compilation like ccl `--load --no-init make.lisp`
2018-03-01T22:11:39Z pjb: exactly.
2018-03-01T22:12:12Z pjb: Now, you can have arguments or different scripts to generates applications for the various targets.
2018-03-01T22:12:40Z pjb: You may load different systems also: com.informatimago.my-app.linux com.informatimago.my-app.macosx com.informatimago.my-app.mswindows
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2018-03-01T22:13:51Z jmercouris: or within the a function hooked into deploy I could look at what OS I am on and modify the behavior
2018-03-01T22:14:15Z jmercouris: when I say "function hooked into deploy" I mean the tool that Shinmera linked
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2018-03-01T22:14:32Z jmercouris: and when I say "deploy", I mean the hook, not the name of the tool
2018-03-01T22:15:07Z jmercouris: the name is both very appropriate, and very inconvenient when talking about the tool
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2018-03-01T22:16:32Z Shinmera: Sorry!
2018-03-01T22:20:48Z jmercouris: Shinmera: who invokes run-hooks? do I have to do this myself? or is it automatic?
2018-03-01T22:21:42Z Shinmera: Deploy does
2018-03-01T22:22:15Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ok, cool, can you please link me to a project that uses deploy so I can have a reference?
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2018-03-01T22:24:05Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/shootman I guess.
2018-03-01T22:24:29Z Shinmera: And https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone, though that uses qt-program-op, which is an extension of deploy used in Qtools.
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2018-03-01T22:25:13Z Shinmera: There's also https://github.com/Shirakumo/ld39, but just like shootman it won't build even if you try.
2018-03-01T22:25:28Z Shinmera: Not because of Deploy, but because of Trial.
2018-03-01T22:28:14Z jmercouris: hmm ok, that's definitely enough for me to get an idea of how to use this tool
2018-03-01T22:28:17Z jmercouris: thank you
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2018-03-02T01:57:25Z emaczen: what format argument gives me fixed width?
2018-03-02T01:58:33Z emaczen: Oh, just a number before the ~A or whatever type
2018-03-02T01:58:50Z edgar-rft: fixed-width font?
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2018-03-02T02:00:55Z pierpa: the width is the first argument, there can be several other.
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2018-03-02T03:08:32Z ckonstanski: Hunchentoot questions OK here?
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2018-03-02T03:11:48Z Bike: you bet
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2018-03-02T03:13:16Z ckonstanski: I need to implement my own user session persistence because it needs to be stored in the database. This is done; that's not the issue. The issue is integrating it with hunchentoot's session cookie handling. There is this blurb about it in the hunchtntoot docs:
2018-03-02T03:13:22Z ckonstanski: The other way to customize Hunchentoot's sessions is to completely replace them. This is actually pretty easy: Create your own class to store state (which doesn't have to and probably shouldn't inherit from SESSION) and implement methods for SESSION-VERIFY and SESSION-COOKIE-VALUE - that's it.
2018-03-02T03:14:29Z ckonstanski: Question: session-verify and session-cookie-value: I'm not entirely clear on how these are to be implemented. Do I create a file that is in the hunchentoot package? Or does hunchentoot somehow find my functions that are in my app's package?
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2018-03-02T03:15:05Z johnnymacs: Is it possible to write an ansi compliant lisp that uses pushable and popable hash tables instead of lists?
2018-03-02T03:15:09Z ckonstanski: If I'm not supposed to inherit from session then CLOS isn't going to find these methods..
2018-03-02T03:15:19Z johnnymacs: oops nvm support question going on already don't mind me
2018-03-02T03:15:29Z Bike: johnnymacs: as long as it does cons/car/cdr the underlying implementation is irrelevant
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2018-03-02T03:17:22Z ckonstanski: My other option is to completely sidestep hunchentoot's session handling and do the cookie mysrlf. I'm so close to just going this route. But I want to take a stab at doing it the Right Way.
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2018-03-02T03:22:52Z nydel: is there a function already that is like #'/ but evaluates down to a float rather than ratio even if given integers? like (/ x y) would be as if it were (/ (* 1.0 x) y) ?
2018-03-02T03:23:48Z nydel: i.e. is this something i should add to my own set of tools or is it usually part of a lisp by some other function name
2018-03-02T03:23:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-02T03:24:06Z beach: nydel: (float (/ x y))
2018-03-02T03:24:11Z nydel: morning beach! hope you're well
2018-03-02T03:24:22Z beach: Yes, thanks.  You too, I hope.
2018-03-02T03:24:49Z nydel: thanks i'm well and thanks, that's a much simpler answer than what i was going to try
2018-03-02T03:25:05Z nydel: it involved coerce so.. yeah. thanks
2018-03-02T03:25:15Z beach: Sure.
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2018-03-02T03:27:01Z fouric: Question: why do we use GENSYM in many macros instead of just manually creating an ininterned symbol with '#:foo?
2018-03-02T03:27:24Z fouric: It seems like the latter would be much easier to read while manually macroexpanding for debugging.
2018-03-02T03:27:25Z beach: fouric: Because macro invocations might be nested, and then you would have a symbol clash.
2018-03-02T03:27:31Z fouric: ...oh.
2018-03-02T03:27:32Z fouric: Derp.
2018-03-02T03:27:34Z fouric: ty
2018-03-02T03:27:40Z beach: ywlcm
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2018-03-02T03:35:50Z fouric: ...I actually don't understand this.
2018-03-02T03:36:38Z fouric: Wouldn't the '#:x in each macro be read in as a separate symbol?
2018-03-02T03:36:58Z beach: Yes, but you can have nested invocation of one and the same macro.
2018-03-02T03:39:17Z beach: (with-my-stuff (a) (with-my-stuff (b) (do-stuff (+ a b)) (do-stuff (- a b)))) Suppose WITH-MY-STUFF expands to something containing #:x, then in the DO-STUFF forms, you could get the wrong #:x.
2018-03-02T03:40:22Z Bike: the definition of the macro is only read once
2018-03-02T03:41:12Z beach: If I were more awake, I might come up with an example.
2018-03-02T03:42:57Z ckonstanski: Isn't there also a potential issue with a symbol in your macro colliding with a free variable?
2018-03-02T03:43:55Z fouric: beach: I've been trying to but my LSP stat is too low ):
2018-03-02T03:43:58Z beach: ckonstanski: Only if it comes from a different invocation of the same macro.
2018-03-02T03:44:06Z fouric: *trying to come up with an example
2018-03-02T03:44:09Z fouric: https://gist.github.com/fouric/ad07a9e5e003ff1c7ac5488d4bbe070f
2018-03-02T03:45:32Z fouric: Something is wrong with this example but I'm not sure what.
2018-03-02T03:48:22Z beach: I was thinking of nested invocations, not by the macro body itself, but by the user, e.g., as in my example above.  Something not predicted by the macro author.
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2018-03-02T03:48:42Z fouric: (to be clear: I believe you that this is the case, but it's not obvious to me *why*, which is why I'm continuing to ask questions)
2018-03-02T03:49:18Z pjb: fouric:  (defmacro m () `'#:foo)  (m) -> #:FOO   (eq (m) (m)) -> T
2018-03-02T03:49:30Z pjb: this is the reason why we use gensym.
2018-03-02T03:49:48Z fouric: Beautiful. Thanks!
2018-03-02T03:49:54Z pjb: The point is not of having an uninterned symbol for having an uninterned symbol, but of having a UNIQUE symbol.
2018-03-02T03:50:20Z pjb: You could use gentemp instead of gensym.
2018-03-02T03:50:50Z pjb: The only thing with gentemp, is that user provided symbols could be identical to a symbol returned by gentemp, so it wouldn't be unique.
2018-03-02T03:51:08Z pjb: But sometimes, to debug a macro, you could s/gensym/gentemp/ temporarily.
2018-03-02T03:51:14Z fouric: clhs gentemp
2018-03-02T03:51:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gentem.htm
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2018-03-02T03:51:33Z pjb: Notice that you can also pass a prefix argument: (gensym "FOO") --> #:FOO49371  to make it more readable.
2018-03-02T03:51:48Z pjb: gentemp takes this prefix too.
2018-03-02T03:52:16Z pjb: (gensym "RESULT-") --> #:RESULT-49372
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2018-03-02T03:52:49Z pfdietz: Uninterned symbols do have the advantage of not sticking around after they've been created, if there are no references.  Interned symbols are referenced by the tables for the package and can never be GCed.
2018-03-02T03:56:48Z fouric: ckonstanski: I think I might be able to make a partial stab at an answer for your question
2018-03-02T03:56:51Z fouric: if it wasn't answered already
2018-03-02T03:58:31Z fouric: wait nvm
2018-03-02T03:59:42Z fouric: ...hm, actually, if there was a generic method SESSION-VERIFY defined, then if you implemented it for a completely separate class, shouldn't it still be "found" by hunchentoot?
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2018-03-02T04:01:38Z fouric: there's a defgeneric session-verify (request)
2018-03-02T04:01:47Z fouric: in session.lisp
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2018-03-02T04:02:37Z fouric: I'm not good enough with packages to know whether you'd (defmethod session-verify ...) or (defmethod hunchentoot:session-verify ...), but I *think* that that would work.
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2018-03-02T04:03:24Z smokeink: if *package* is hunchentoot then you can use the first form
2018-03-02T04:04:59Z smokeink: (of course, the 2nd one also works) if *package* is something different, for example :cl-user and you didn't import the symbol session-verify in it, you can use  (defmethod hunchentoot:session-verify ...)
2018-03-02T04:05:54Z fouric: oh, right
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2018-03-02T04:06:30Z fouric: I was more concerned with Hunchentoot doing things to prevent you from modifying its functions, like the "package lock" placed on cl-user and some SBCL packages - but then i realized that that would be silly in this case.
2018-03-02T04:07:03Z fouric: smokeink: how do you "import" a symbol?
2018-03-02T04:07:20Z ckonstanski: Hunchentoot already has implementations for these two methods. (One specializes on session, the other on request.) The only thing that makes sense to me is: if I reimplement these methods, mine will overwrite the originals because they are compiled later. That seems like it would work, but it's kludgy.
2018-03-02T04:07:21Z smokeink: clhs import
2018-03-02T04:07:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_import.htm
2018-03-02T04:07:34Z mfiano: use-package, import-from, etc, depending on your needs
2018-03-02T04:07:37Z smokeink: usually you specify what symbols to import when you define your own package
2018-03-02T04:08:26Z ckonstanski: All the relevant symbols are exported from hunchentoot: the two classes and the two method names.
2018-03-02T04:08:33Z fouric: Hm. What about if I want to import *everything* from a given package?
2018-03-02T04:08:34Z smokeink: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2018-03-02T04:08:42Z fouric actually has that page open right now
2018-03-02T04:08:49Z smokeink: just import everything
2018-03-02T04:08:50Z fouric: ...it's just a tiny bit dry
2018-03-02T04:09:08Z fouric: smokeink: is there a "wildcard" or another form that I can use?
2018-03-02T04:09:26Z smokeink: defpackage :mypackage  (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot))
2018-03-02T04:09:42Z ckonstanski: If you just (:use #:hunchentoot) then you import all of its exported symbols.
2018-03-02T04:09:42Z smokeink: :use is to tell it that you want all symbols from those packages
2018-03-02T04:09:53Z Bike: use isn't importing
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2018-03-02T04:10:31Z ckonstanski: Semantics. You don't have to fully-qualify the names.
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2018-03-02T04:10:34Z fouric: ckonstanski: you should be able to just do (defmethod session-verify ((session my-class)) ...)
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2018-03-02T04:10:42Z mfiano: ckonstanski: I would strongly recommend developing for clack instead of hunchentoot so that your persistent session code works for any web server instead of being tied to an old web server such as hunchentoot.
2018-03-02T04:10:43Z Bike: they have different semantics
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2018-03-02T04:10:59Z fouric: wait sorry
2018-03-02T04:11:03Z fouric: i didn't see the other thing you wrote
2018-03-02T04:11:05Z fouric: one sec
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2018-03-02T04:11:09Z ckonstanski: Never heard of clack. Looking...
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2018-03-02T04:11:21Z Bike: also, USE is only exported symbols, and given this symbol is apparently internal...
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2018-03-02T04:11:23Z smokeink: mfiano: does clack have good documentation ?
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2018-03-02T04:11:32Z ckonstanski: I just got off of araneida...
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2018-03-02T04:12:34Z smokeink: I gave clack a try but I couldn't figure out how to tell it where to store the logs
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2018-03-02T04:13:15Z fouric: Wait, you wouldn't be "reimplementing" the methods if you performed defmethod later, unless you had it specialize on exactly the same types
2018-03-02T04:13:19Z ckonstanski: The README.md is tiny. Hunchentoot is still active, albeit it got its atart in the early 2000s.
2018-03-02T04:13:27Z ckonstanski: Araneida dies in 2005.
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2018-03-02T04:13:48Z fouric: you'd be declaring a separate generic function, and isn't that dispatch done at run-time *anyway*?
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2018-03-02T04:14:28Z beach: fouric: https://pastebin.com/UDg1kAMW
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2018-03-02T04:14:43Z smokeink: session-verify is exported by hunchentoot . Bike: so what's the difference between (:use)ing a package and manually importing all its external symbols ?
2018-03-02T04:15:05Z Bike: yeah, i couldn't think of a way to do it without some macrolet
2018-03-02T04:15:13Z Bike: so a practical case would be with-slots
2018-03-02T04:15:28Z mfiano: smokeink: You could check out how my lispcoder.net handles it https://github.com/mfiano/lispcoder.net/blob/master/src/app.lisp#L54-L55
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2018-03-02T04:15:59Z smokeink: mfiano: awesome, thank you
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2018-03-02T04:16:52Z fouric: beach: ty!
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2018-03-02T04:17:44Z beach: fouric: M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>ty<RET>Thank you!<RET>
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2018-03-02T04:19:23Z fouric: i can knock it off if you like, i just figure that a sane default is to verbally express gratitude
2018-03-02T04:19:31Z fouric: erm
2018-03-02T04:19:44Z fouric: or expand into a full sentence, either way
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2018-03-02T04:22:15Z beach: Somehow "ty" just rubs me the wrong way.  It is an indication that people either use the wrong tools or don't know how to use the right one.
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2018-03-02T04:23:22Z ckonstanski: Neat trick. You could have "fu" expand to "Thank you for the constructive advice. I will endeavor to implement it in my daily work." And similar abbrevs for "yourmom" and "eatshit". Simple pleasures. I wonder if slack can do this?
2018-03-02T04:25:15Z beach: ckonstanski: To me, using abbrevs is not a "trick".  It is a tool that saves me a lot of typing on a daily basis.  One of many tools to improve my productivity.
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2018-03-02T04:33:19Z smokeink: beach: if the motivation for that (lb) binary logarithm function wasn't the performance, then what was it? Is it more precise than CL's (log x 2) ?
2018-03-02T04:33:35Z fouric: beach: thank you
2018-03-02T04:33:37Z fouric: noice
2018-03-02T04:33:40Z fouric: script complete
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2018-03-02T04:34:52Z smokeink: cuz I can see that (lb big_x) ==> 792481.2503605781d0 while (log big_x) ==> 792481.25  , but I think the decimals after .25 are not correct or precise
2018-03-02T04:35:35Z smokeink: s/(log big_x)/(log big_x 2)/
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2018-03-02T04:46:23Z smokeink: It can't have better precision than (log) because it uses arithmetic shift for hundreds of digits, and then it still uses (log) under the hood but only for 100 digits
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2018-03-02T04:52:05Z smokeink: so it's faster because it has less precision
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2018-03-02T05:02:05Z beach: smokeink: Oh, I just wanted to see how it could be implemented for large integers without losing precision.
2018-03-02T05:02:28Z beach: smokeink: I am actually surprised that it might be able to compete with the native SBCL implementation.
2018-03-02T05:03:02Z smokeink: well, it uses sbcl's implementation :)
2018-03-02T05:03:09Z beach: Only for floats.
2018-03-02T05:03:25Z beach: smokeink: It preserves 100 digits precision which is more than what is available in DOUBLE-FLOAT on SBCL.
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2018-03-02T05:03:59Z beach: Also, it looks like SBCL returns a SINGLE-FLOAT.
2018-03-02T05:04:02Z smokeink: that's the part which I don't get
2018-03-02T05:04:43Z beach: I shift right with 100 fewer digits than the integer-length of the number.
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2018-03-02T05:04:49Z beach: So, I have 100 digits left.
2018-03-02T05:05:07Z smokeink: yes there are 100 digits left, upon which sbcl's (log) does the calculation
2018-03-02T05:05:40Z beach: I convert those 100 digits to a double float, leaving less than 60 digits mantissa in the double float.
2018-03-02T05:05:51Z beach: I forget the exact number of mantissa bits in double float.
2018-03-02T05:06:58Z beach: Then I take the LOG of that, presumably using a machine instruction.
2018-03-02T05:07:56Z beach: So the precision of the argument to LOG is very high (provided the conversion to DOUBLE-FLOAT is accurate), and therefore also the result of computing the LOG.
2018-03-02T05:08:13Z beach: To that result, I add an exact integer.
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2018-03-02T05:08:25Z beach: I don't see how the precision can be higher than that.
2018-03-02T05:08:42Z smokeink: and the hypothesis is that taking (log) of 100 digits of a number, which are converted double float, is more precise than taking (log) of the whole number ? how to prove that?
2018-03-02T05:08:58Z beach: No, but it can't be less precise either.
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2018-03-02T05:09:06Z smokeink: the precision comes because doing it upon a double float is inherently more precise than doing it on an integer?
2018-03-02T05:09:35Z beach: There is no machine instruction for taking the LOG of a bignum.
2018-03-02T05:09:42Z beach: So that is up to the implementation.
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2018-03-02T05:10:06Z beach: The implementation might use several possible strategies:
2018-03-02T05:10:23Z beach: 1. It could try to compute the LOG itself, not using the machine instruction.
2018-03-02T05:10:43Z beach: 2. It could convert the big number to a float, and then use the machine instructio.
2018-03-02T05:10:49Z beach: 3. It can do what I did.
2018-03-02T05:11:06Z beach: and possibly more ways that I can't think of right now.
2018-03-02T05:11:55Z smokeink: "So the precision of the argument to LOG is very high" ,  so the original number can't be converted directly to double float because it's too big, but those 100 digits can ?
2018-03-02T05:12:28Z beach: Well, what is the biggest possible exponent in a double-float?
2018-03-02T05:12:47Z smokeink: I don't know
2018-03-02T05:12:56Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754
2018-03-02T05:14:06Z beach: 10^1023 it looks like.  That would be 2^3000 or so.
2018-03-02T05:14:48Z smokeink: ok. I'll try to find a counter example, a number that gives different results with (lb)
2018-03-02T05:15:13Z smokeink: just to explore and to understand what's really happening there
2018-03-02T05:15:18Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-02T05:17:29Z beach: smokeink: Try calling my function on (expt 10 2000).
2018-03-02T05:17:52Z beach: Then try (float (expt 10 2000) 1d0).
2018-03-02T05:19:09Z smokeink: Too large to be represented as a DOUBLE-FLOAT
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2018-03-02T05:19:11Z beach: By the way, my function is NOT faster than SBCL LOG.
2018-03-02T05:19:19Z beach: smokeink: See?
2018-03-02T05:19:27Z beach: So the implementation must do something else.
2018-03-02T05:20:14Z smokeink: oh
2018-03-02T05:21:36Z smokeink: (lb) is slower than sbcl's (log) only for small numbers , but for big numbers it's faster - at least this is what my tests showed
2018-03-02T05:21:47Z beach: All I did was to make an educated guess about how an implementation could deal with taking the LOG of integers that are bigger than what can be represented in the highest-precision float format that it supports.
2018-03-02T05:22:09Z beach: OK, let me try for some really huge numbers.
2018-03-02T05:24:35Z smokeink: I just tried with (expt (expt (expt 3 5000) 10) 10)
2018-03-02T05:25:06Z smokeink: sbcl's (log): 32,724 processor cycles ,  (lb):  6,219 processor cycles
2018-03-02T05:26:24Z smokeink: for small numbers (less than 100 digits) all the arithmetic shifting is just extra work, so we could add an if < (integer-length ...) 100 ) ;then use the sbcl's log directly, else use your method
2018-03-02T05:27:34Z beach: I can't reproduce that result.
2018-03-02T05:27:49Z smokeink: I'll put the code up
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2018-03-02T05:28:03Z smokeink: maybe I did something or saw it wrongly
2018-03-02T05:28:46Z beach: I do get comparable performance for very large numbers though, but not as spectacular as what you get.
2018-03-02T05:31:17Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/b600e6/
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2018-03-02T05:32:33Z smokeink: I took that code and pasted it in a new sbcl session. Got these results: (log):  10,872 processor cycles (log2): 5,625 processor cycles
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2018-03-02T05:35:29Z beach: Oh, wait.  I am using (speed 0) and (debug 3) by default.
2018-03-02T05:35:36Z beach: So that could explain the difference.
2018-03-02T05:35:56Z smokeink: I'm using just (debug 3) , I didn't specify the speed . I'll try to change it to (speed 0 )
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2018-03-02T05:37:14Z beach: Yes, I now get better performance with my technique as well.
2018-03-02T05:37:36Z smokeink: yes it's 2-3 times faster
2018-03-02T05:37:53Z beach: I don't get that much for my test cases, but I believe you.
2018-03-02T05:38:51Z smokeink: 17,127 processor cycles    <-> 7,524 processor cycles    after I put (declare (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3))) inside (log2)
2018-03-02T05:39:07Z beach: Great!
2018-03-02T05:39:58Z beach: You can make it faster yet by changing 100 to 60.
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2018-03-02T05:40:37Z smokeink: ok
2018-03-02T05:40:42Z smokeink:  now I understand the mechanism, I got it after seeing that example   (float (expt 10 2000) 1d0)
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2018-03-02T05:40:58Z beach: Great!
2018-03-02T05:41:24Z beach: Yes, you need the knowledge about floating-point numbers to understand it.
2018-03-02T05:41:38Z smokeink: The idea of extending it to work with any base has been haunting me this morning
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2018-03-02T05:42:20Z beach: Just multiply the result with a factor.
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2018-03-02T05:44:22Z smokeink: https://www.katesmathlessons.com/uploads/1/6/1/0/1610286/6965355_orig.png
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2018-03-02T05:45:01Z smokeink: do you mean that formula? if not, what factor ?
2018-03-02T05:46:01Z beach: Yes, that one.
2018-03-02T05:46:17Z smokeink: all right
2018-03-02T05:47:13Z smokeink: btw are you using sbcl 1.4.4 ?
2018-03-02T05:47:33Z beach: No, 1.4.0
2018-03-02T05:47:35Z smokeink: 1.4.4 is what I'm using
2018-03-02T05:47:38Z beach: So there could be some variation.
2018-03-02T05:47:44Z smokeink: yes
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2018-03-02T06:06:04Z smokeink: beach: I'm playing with some bigger numbers and the results seem to start diverging:  (log x 2) ==> 3962406.3 ,   (log2 x) ==> 3962406.2518028906d0
2018-03-02T06:07:00Z phoe: smokeink: collect the data and make a graph
2018-03-02T06:07:19Z smokeink: ok
2018-03-02T06:07:52Z phoe: it seems we have seven decimal digits of precision... about the width of a single float.
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2018-03-02T06:09:38Z smokeink: with a much smaller X, the results were very similar: (log x 2) ; ==> 792481.25    ,   (log2 x)  ; ==> 792481.2503605781d0
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2018-03-02T06:10:07Z phoe: smokeink: not really "very similar".
2018-03-02T06:10:13Z phoe: this is still seven digits of precision.
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2018-03-02T06:10:22Z phoe: ...or rather, eight here. hmmm.
2018-03-02T06:10:43Z phoe: So we might be losing precision with bigger numbers.
2018-03-02T06:11:10Z beach: smokeink: Sure, SBCL LOG uses single float in this situation apparently.
2018-03-02T06:11:56Z smokeink: both of them are *****.25***** , but for bigger numbers, the precision is lost, sbcl's log gives ***.30  and (log2) gives ****.25*****
2018-03-02T06:11:56Z smokeink: ok
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2018-03-02T06:13:30Z beach: smokeink: As you add a big integer to a small-ish float, you lose precision.
2018-03-02T06:14:22Z beach: Try (+ 1000000000000000 0.982749827392837498237928379283749837d0)
2018-03-02T06:14:42Z smokeink: my supposition/issue, is this: (log2) is very accurate for those 100 digits, but it also looses much due to that arithmetic shift . If you had a 1 trillion digits number, (log2) does arithmetic shift for most of the digits, and calculates Very precisely only for 100 digits
2018-03-02T06:15:21Z beach: smokeink: *sigh* 100 digits is more than the maximum precision of a double float, so you can't get more accurate than that.
2018-03-02T06:15:31Z beach: We went through this already.
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2018-03-02T06:18:15Z beach: smokeink: Imagine you had a floating-point format with 56 digits mantissa and a trillion digits of exponent.  Then you would get the same mantissa for a number with a trillion digits as with that same number shifted a triliion-minus-56 positions to the right.
2018-03-02T06:18:36Z beach: perhaps plus or minus the last digit.
2018-03-02T06:19:22Z beach: I didn't mean "a trillion digits of exponent".  I mean "an exponent big enough to represent a number with a trillion digits".
2018-03-02T06:20:24Z beach: So, you can view my technique as simulating a floating-point format with a 56 digit mantissa and an arbitrary large exponent.
2018-03-02T06:21:32Z beach: Like I said, the loss of precision is intrinsic, in that when you add a large integer number to a small-ish floating-point number, no matter the precision of that number, then you lose precision.
2018-03-02T06:21:51Z smokeink: ok I am with you. Cool, it means (log2) is both more precise and faster than (log). Yesterday we discusses about infinite integers, I had thought (log) uses some kind of bigfloats or something, and when I saw the difference in the results I thought (log2) is less precise, but the reverse seems to be the case
2018-03-02T06:22:04Z smokeink: *discussed
2018-03-02T06:22:23Z beach: Yes, log2 is more precise, because it uses double floats.
2018-03-02T06:23:01Z smokeink: very nice
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2018-03-02T06:27:53Z pierpa: when CL has to build a float from non float arguments, the result is always single-float
2018-03-02T06:28:26Z beach: Oh?  I see.
2018-03-02T06:28:29Z pierpa: unless there's a mechanism to specify otherwise, as in FLOAT
2018-03-02T06:29:08Z beach: smokeink: In that case, you can make it even faster by only keeping as many digits as required for SINGLE-FLOAT
2018-03-02T06:31:19Z beach: replace 100 by 25 and 1d0 by 1s0.
2018-03-02T06:31:27Z smokeink: ok
2018-03-02T06:31:45Z pierpa: > (sqrt 2) => 1.4142135     > (sqrt 2L0) 1.4142135623730952D0
2018-03-02T06:31:58Z beach: pierpa: Yes, thanks!
2018-03-02T06:32:15Z beach: smokeink: It is now just as precise as LOG, but significantly faster.
2018-03-02T06:34:35Z beach: Oh, and s/56/53/ for IEEE double precision.  Sorry about that.
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2018-03-02T06:58:03Z emaczen: When can I expect garbage collection to be run?
2018-03-02T06:58:24Z emaczen: I know different implementations do different garbage collection, but what is reasonable?
2018-03-02T06:58:32Z easye: Nobody expects the reference inquisition!
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2018-03-02T07:09:47Z Pierpa: It is unreasonable to signal memory exhausted when there's garbage which could be collected. Everything else has been done by some implementation somewhere.
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2018-03-02T07:25:50Z myrkraverk: Is there a good JS compiler out there?  So I can sort of easily have a runnable demonstration of Lisp on my log, without pulling in Hunchentoot and related frameworks?
2018-03-02T07:25:58Z myrkraverk: *on my blog
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2018-03-02T07:30:28Z krwq: mykraverk: for just lisp I'd go with mal
2018-03-02T07:30:36Z krwq: if you want CL not sure if there is any
2018-03-02T07:30:54Z krwq: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/js
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2018-03-02T07:31:52Z krwq: unless you mean lisp to JS then there is parenscript
2018-03-02T07:32:11Z smokeink: https://github.com/mishoo/JCLS maybe this one but I've never tried it
2018-03-02T07:33:11Z smokeink: http://mihai.bazon.net/blog/ss-lisp-run-lisp-in-your-browser
2018-03-02T07:34:51Z flip214: with current QL and postmodern I get "during macroexpansion of (S-SQL:SQL (:LIMIT 100)):  error while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND:
2018-03-02T07:35:10Z flip214:   too few elements in (100) to satisfy lambda list  (S-SQL::FORM S-SQL::AMOUNT &OPTIONAL S-SQL::OFFSET): between 2 and 3 expected, but got 1
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2018-03-02T07:36:22Z krwq: flip214: that's good, isn't it?
2018-03-02T07:36:38Z krwq: you should pass another query and a number to :limit
2018-03-02T07:36:45Z krwq: not sure what order
2018-03-02T07:36:47Z smokeink: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-l#limit
2018-03-02T07:38:00Z flip214: krwq: smokeink: ah, thanks a lot.
2018-03-02T07:38:17Z flip214: got confused in some way when building the query.
2018-03-02T07:44:51Z myrkraverk: The idea was to have my common lisp sample functions executable in the browser.
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2018-03-02T07:45:02Z myrkraverk: So maybe I can try to play with parenscript.
2018-03-02T07:45:30Z myrkraverk: But then, I might use SBCL internal functions; so maybe I won't bother.
2018-03-02T07:45:40Z krwq: myrkraverk: I'd go with mal and just implement a tiny subset of what you want to show
2018-03-02T07:45:54Z myrkraverk: fair enough, I'll take a look.
2018-03-02T07:46:15Z krwq: actually: myrkraverk: http://lisperator.net/slip/
2018-03-02T07:46:31Z krwq: this might be pretty close to what you need
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2018-03-02T07:46:40Z krwq: go with open demo
2018-03-02T07:47:00Z krwq: you might even point to that directly
2018-03-02T07:47:31Z krwq: I knew I saw it before but couldn't recall :)
2018-03-02T07:48:12Z krwq: interestingly this is by the same author that smokeink pointed to but different repo
2018-03-02T07:48:30Z myrkraverk: I see, I'll take a look.
2018-03-02T07:48:51Z myrkraverk: I'll focus on writing what I want to cover for now; I'll play with demonstration toys later.
2018-03-02T07:49:13Z krwq: myrkraverk: with mal you can build lisp from the ground though - depends what you need
2018-03-02T07:49:23Z myrkraverk: Though there is a good reason I want to have in-browser demonstration tools; but no spoilers.
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2018-03-02T07:50:07Z myrkraverk: Mostly I need common lisp syntax for some (hopefully) simple functions, that a reader can experiment with locally.
2018-03-02T07:50:52Z myrkraverk: But at least one function will likely use SBCL's string-to-octets.
2018-03-02T07:51:42Z krwq: mysterious project
2018-03-02T07:52:01Z myrkraverk: I don't want to spoil it too soon.
2018-03-02T07:52:39Z krwq: if you make clim work on that lisp that would be pretty interesting
2018-03-02T07:52:51Z myrkraverk: And even if people will have to just copy and paste my functions into a REPL, that'll be better than not publishing; imo.
2018-03-02T07:54:39Z krwq: ok, I'll be going, good luck with your project
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2018-03-02T08:02:34Z smokeink: beach: thank you for patiently explaining all those things. Doing a bit of visualisation has helped me to see how obvious all this stuff is. I was thinking that mathematically it might be the case that the errors due to the arithmetic shift are not small ones, but big ones that might influence the result's digits near the decimal point, even the units. This is of course impossible. Anyway, the way I tested (log) and (log2) 's speed is
2018-03-02T08:02:34Z smokeink: wrong: if I reverse their order in that let/progn form , then their speeds interchange too. Running each of them separately in a (dotimes (i 10000)) loop has shown that (log) is significantly faster . This speed the difference could be due to (log2) having an extra function call to (log) , I'm not sure.
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2018-03-02T08:35:41Z flip214: ISTR that there's a function that returns the CONS cell that matches some test function... but FIND returns the CAR and not the cell.
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2018-03-02T08:39:01Z Shinmera: (loop for cons on list when (test cons) return cons)
2018-03-02T08:40:05Z Shinmera: Or if your test returns the significant value: (loop for cons on list thereis (test cons))
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2018-03-02T08:40:57Z jdz: MEMBER almost matches the description.
2018-03-02T08:41:13Z droog: Does anyone have a good example of a roswell script which simply executes a list of commands?
2018-03-02T08:41:29Z droog: As in, several expressions, one after another.
2018-03-02T08:41:45Z droog: I tried to do something really simple with Roswell and it crashed.
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2018-03-02T08:55:48Z flip214: jdz: thanks, MEMBER it is...
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2018-03-02T09:02:10Z Lycurgus: would be nice to see roswell find an implemented place between something like ansible or vagrrant and quicklisp
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2018-03-02T09:06:06Z easye: Lycurgus: Not sure I understand "implemented place".  What would you like Roswell to do additionally?
2018-03-02T09:07:26Z Lycurgus: easye, nothing. I mean a thing with a context encompassing those three scopes.
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2018-03-02T09:09:27Z easye: Hmm.  I see ansible<-->vagrant as not having the same scope.  Ansible scripts devops commands on a given machine; vagrant configures a virtualized container.
2018-03-02T09:15:13Z myrkraverk: Is sbcl.org down, or just slow on my end?
2018-03-02T09:15:25Z Shinmera: Sourceforge is still having problems.
2018-03-02T09:15:41Z myrkraverk: Ah.
2018-03-02T09:16:00Z myrkraverk: Now I get to find out if I have a local copy somewhere.
2018-03-02T09:16:54Z scymtym: myrkraverk: https://sbcl.github.io/
2018-03-02T09:17:04Z scymtym: (if you are looking for the manual)
2018-03-02T09:17:21Z myrkraverk: Yes, I'm looking for the manual, thanks.
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2018-03-02T09:21:25Z notrbt: Hello.
2018-03-02T09:21:53Z notrbt: Who likes to draw or make music?
2018-03-02T09:22:38Z Shinmera: Will the follow up to an answer have anything to do with lisp?
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2018-03-02T09:23:27Z notrbt: Yesm if consider that programming is somewhat art too.
2018-03-02T09:24:03Z smokeink: I like to draw
2018-03-02T09:24:04Z Shinmera: Programming is practically incomparable to art.
2018-03-02T09:24:40Z notrbt: smoke, what do yo like to draw?
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2018-03-02T09:25:28Z smokeink: pixelart
2018-03-02T09:25:39Z notrbt: I like that too.
2018-03-02T09:26:04Z notrbt: How about nature in drawing and classical music?
2018-03-02T09:26:06Z Shinmera: When are we getting to the point where this isn't off-topic?
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2018-03-02T09:34:13Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: actually, a trained eye may easily distinguish between beautiful and ugly code
2018-03-02T09:34:49Z jackdaniel: same goes for paintings: I for instance couldn't tell if something is an art or rather a street painting for $10
2018-03-02T09:35:03Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The practise of drawing or making music is practically incomparable to writing code.
2018-03-02T09:35:15Z Shinmera: And this still isn't about Lisp.
2018-03-02T09:35:34Z jackdaniel: in my limited experience componing music is comparable
2018-03-02T09:35:47Z jackdaniel: but sure, offtopic top-bottom, getting back to my art-ish code :-)
2018-03-02T09:36:27Z jackdaniel: composing*
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2018-03-02T10:07:07Z myrkraverk: I wanted to make an exercise, to implement SHA-1.  Now I'm getting lost in the padding part, where I have to do some bit field arithmetic.
2018-03-02T10:07:27Z myrkraverk: Is there an overview of bit arithmetic and manipulation somewhere?
2018-03-02T10:07:50Z myrkraverk: If there's a relevant part in CLR, I'm all ears -- I didn't see it in the TOC.
2018-03-02T10:09:14Z Shinmera: clhs 12.2
2018-03-02T10:09:14Z specbot: The Numbers Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_number.htm
2018-03-02T10:10:19Z Shinmera: clhs logand
2018-03-02T10:10:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
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2018-03-02T10:14:47Z myrkraverk: thank you.
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2018-03-02T10:58:32Z beach: smokeink: Yes, I figured there was something wrong with the timing.
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2018-03-02T10:58:49Z beach: smokeink: Glad to be able to explain it to you.  It's my job. :)
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2018-03-02T11:01:59Z cbs: This is an odd error https://gist.github.com/anonymous/daf58cc7aad47e17fbd3558437a8619a
2018-03-02T11:02:34Z Shinmera: cbs: That's a bug in Portacle
2018-03-02T11:03:04Z cbs: is there a way around it?
2018-03-02T11:03:30Z Shinmera: Yes, edit config/sbcl-init.lisp and remove this line https://github.com/portacle/config/commit/17a8d4b55e85a5c42c8b844e8ef36c1687855d9d#diff-70748b0c35ae0ef56c6986b061b3f4eeL99
2018-03-02T11:03:40Z Shinmera: agh, it didn't highlight it.
2018-03-02T11:03:52Z Shinmera: line 99 on that commit excerpt
2018-03-02T11:04:12Z cbs: thank you
2018-03-02T11:04:28Z Shinmera: I'll try to make a new Portacle release soon.
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2018-03-02T11:55:12Z flip214: White_Flame: would you like to remove the "Submissions are now open!" (and perhaps "deadline extended" as well) from the ELS page?
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2018-03-02T12:02:58Z phoe: Are the registrations open for ELS yet?
2018-03-02T12:03:14Z Shinmera: No
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2018-03-02T12:49:40Z hjudt: how can i get dexador to use content-type application/json for posting json content when using post requests? looking at the verbose output, it doesn't seem to set this header (it does set other headers like Accept though).
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2018-03-02T13:01:19Z hjudt: or maybe i am doing it wrong and someone can tell me how to post json content with dexador?
2018-03-02T13:01:20Z _death: looks like it has a special case to _not_ let the user override it.. stupid
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2018-03-02T13:02:02Z hjudt: in encoding.lisp:detect-charset it seems to do some content-type detection for json
2018-03-02T13:03:49Z hjudt: i wonder how to post json content then. i tried (dex:post uri :headers '(("Content-Type" . "application/json") ("Accept" . "application/json") ("Accept-Encoding" . "gzip")) :content my-json-string).
2018-03-02T13:03:59Z _death: this is for the responses.. the special case is in usocket.lisp:request
2018-03-02T13:04:24Z _death: maybe file an issue
2018-03-02T13:07:18Z hjudt: yes, i see... the part about excluding certain custom headers
2018-03-02T13:07:27Z hjudt: thanks for looking it up
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2018-03-02T14:04:41Z dim: seems like I'm making it possible to be at ELS this year, I've cancelled some things ;-)
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2018-03-02T14:04:53Z dim: I don't see a way to register for it yet though?
2018-03-02T14:05:54Z jackdaniel: dim: registeration will be open soon™
2018-03-02T14:05:57Z jackdaniel: we all wait for it
2018-03-02T14:05:58Z jackdaniel: :)
2018-03-02T14:10:08Z dim: hehe ok
2018-03-02T14:10:12Z dim: it's not me then, perfect
2018-03-02T14:10:34Z dim: goodbye NYC, hello Marbella
2018-03-02T14:11:02Z oleo: will you take a dive
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2018-03-02T14:16:27Z beach: dim: Congratulations!  Good choice!
2018-03-02T14:18:12Z dim: beach: hehe thanks ;-)
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2018-03-02T14:57:32Z beach: I added another library project (text abbreviations) to the list of suggested programming projects: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-03-02T14:57:51Z beach: I was inspired by the discussion this morning (UTC+1) about using abbrevs.
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2018-03-02T15:20:55Z jmercouris: beach: sounds interesting, sounds like something I could even use in Next, maybe I will work on this
2018-03-02T15:21:20Z beach: Great!  Yes, definitely something for Next and other similar applications.
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2018-03-02T15:27:08Z beach: jmercouris: If you decide to work on it, you might want to let me know what you are about to do, so that I can give you feedback on possible choices.
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2018-03-02T15:36:14Z beach: ... or not.
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2018-03-02T15:36:31Z jackdaniel: hm?
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2018-03-02T15:42:32Z White_Flame: flip214: I think you meant to ping somebody else...
2018-03-02T15:43:46Z jmercouris: beach: Yes, of course
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2018-03-02T15:45:19Z jmercouris: beach: I'll probably come up with some proposed design and then run it by you and see what you think
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2018-03-02T15:56:21Z beach: Sounds good.  And you can show it here so that more people can give feedback.
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2018-03-02T16:16:56Z gypsydav_: Could someone spare five minutes to explain a corner of quoting to me?
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2018-03-02T16:17:03Z dlowe: Sure.
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2018-03-02T16:17:36Z gypsydav_: So I'm reading Land of Lisp and my brain is chewing itself up over (list 'quote x) where x is a variable
2018-03-02T16:17:37Z pjb: You're losing time! Already one minute
2018-03-02T16:17:48Z gypsydav_: :D
2018-03-02T16:17:54Z pjb: (let ((x 42)) (list 'quote x)) #| --> '42 |#
2018-03-02T16:18:13Z gypsydav_: Sure, so quotes are lists with the quote symbol in the car?
2018-03-02T16:18:18Z phoe: yes
2018-03-02T16:18:22Z pjb: (let ((x 42)) (let ((expr  (list 'quote x))) (values (first expr) (second expr)))) #| --> quote ; 42 |#
2018-03-02T16:18:24Z gypsydav_: So (car ''x) => QUOTE
2018-03-02T16:18:26Z phoe: exactly two-element lists
2018-03-02T16:18:33Z random-nick: gypsydav_: yes
2018-03-02T16:18:37Z Bike: (car ''x) is shorthand for (car (quote (quote x))).
2018-03-02T16:18:40Z gypsydav_: But (car 'x) => ????
2018-03-02T16:18:47Z Bike: that's an error.
2018-03-02T16:18:47Z dlowe: (let ((x 42)) (eval (list 'quote x))) ---> X
2018-03-02T16:18:53Z phoe: gypsydav_: that's an error
2018-03-02T16:18:53Z Bike: X is a symbol, not a cons.
2018-03-02T16:18:57Z phoe: you can't get CAR of a symbol
2018-03-02T16:19:07Z pjb: if it's not CL:NIL!
2018-03-02T16:19:09Z beach: Too many people trying to help, I fear.
2018-03-02T16:19:09Z dlowe: no, wait. that's wrong
2018-03-02T16:19:14Z dlowe: yup
2018-03-02T16:19:14Z pjb: You can get the car of CL:NIL (it's CL:NIL)
2018-03-02T16:19:20Z pjb: and you can get the cdr of CL:NIL (it's CL:NIL).
2018-03-02T16:19:22Z gypsydav_: I'm enjoying the wall of assistance :D
2018-03-02T16:19:32Z gypsydav_: pjb: nice
2018-03-02T16:19:46Z phoe: yep, that's because NIL is the only symbol which is also a list.
2018-03-02T16:19:52Z phoe: an empty list, to be precise.
2018-03-02T16:19:57Z gypsydav_: So what is quote doing?
2018-03-02T16:20:08Z phoe: gypsydav_: to understand quote, you need to understand evaluation.
2018-03-02T16:20:09Z gypsydav_: at one level its getting me a symbol
2018-03-02T16:20:10Z pjb: quote is a special operator that prevents the evaluation of its argument.
2018-03-02T16:20:17Z phoe: Do you know how evaluation works in Lisp?
2018-03-02T16:20:20Z gypsydav_: and another it's getting me a list
2018-03-02T16:20:25Z pjb: (let ((x 42))   x)  #| --> 42 |#    (let ((x 42))   (quote x)) #| --> x |#
2018-03-02T16:20:26Z gypsydav_: I'd say _kinda_
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2018-03-02T16:20:50Z pjb: without being wrapped in a quote form, X is evaluated, and its value 42 is returned.
2018-03-02T16:21:05Z gypsydav_: sure - got that bit
2018-03-02T16:21:10Z pjb: when wrapped in a quote form, (quote X) evaluates to X itself, without evaluating X.
2018-03-02T16:21:23Z pjb: So we say that quote prevents the evaluation of its argument.
2018-03-02T16:21:31Z gypsydav_: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
2018-03-02T16:21:38Z phoe: (+ 2 2) evaluates to 4.
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2018-03-02T16:22:04Z gypsydav_: So, while it's a list when you've nested the ''x, that's only because you've prevented the evaluation of 'x
2018-03-02T16:22:06Z phoe: '(+ 2 2) evaluates to a three-element list; its first element is the symbol +, its second element is the number 2, its third element is the number 2.
2018-03-02T16:22:15Z phoe: yep
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2018-03-02T16:23:44Z dlowe: (eval (eval '(+ 2 2))) will be 4, though :)
2018-03-02T16:23:56Z phoe: that is because 4 evaluates to itself.
2018-03-02T16:24:11Z gypsydav_: So when (let ((x 42)) (list 'quote x)) ... ?
2018-03-02T16:24:20Z phoe: in Lisp, cons cells evaluate to function/macro calls, symbols evaluate to their values, and everything else is self-evaluating.
2018-03-02T16:24:23Z phoe: 42 evals to 42.
2018-03-02T16:24:31Z gypsydav_: agreed :D
2018-03-02T16:24:32Z phoe: oh wait
2018-03-02T16:24:39Z gypsydav_: (list 'quote 42) then
2018-03-02T16:24:39Z phoe: that's (list 'quote 42)
2018-03-02T16:24:45Z phoe: that will evaluate to (QUOTE 42)
2018-03-02T16:24:47Z dlowe: (eval (eval ''(+ 2 2))) will be 4, too :)
2018-03-02T16:24:51Z phoe: which is also noted as '42
2018-03-02T16:24:52Z beach: The collective pedagogical skills of this channel are mind-blowing.
2018-03-02T16:25:10Z dlowe: beach: very few have had training
2018-03-02T16:26:49Z gypsydav_: But different somehow to (list '+ 1 1) ... or am I still not getting something?
2018-03-02T16:27:00Z beach: dlowe: It makes it worse that so many people with different pedagogical ideas try to help simultaneously.  But maybe I am overreacting.
2018-03-02T16:27:01Z pjb: gypsydav_: No, it's not fundamentally different.
2018-03-02T16:27:19Z pjb: gypsydav_: in both cases, it returns a form, ie. a sexp (some data), that could be interpreted by EVAL.
2018-03-02T16:27:23Z dlowe: beach: it's not orderly, that's for sure.
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2018-03-02T16:27:46Z pjb: (mapcar 'eval (list (list '+ 1 1) (list 'quote 42))) #| --> (2 42) |#
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2018-03-02T16:28:21Z random-nick: gypsydav_: the most important difference between quote and list is that quote is a special form while list is a function
2018-03-02T16:28:33Z pjb: gypsydav_: remember that we don't write lisp code, we write lisp data.  (+ 1 2) is not code, it's data. It's a list of 3 elements, (a symbol, and 2 integers).
2018-03-02T16:28:45Z gypsydav_: totally
2018-03-02T16:28:57Z pjb: gypsydav_: what makes lisp code, is that we take some lisp data, and pass it to EVAL (or to COMPILE or COMPILE-FILE when it's stored in a file).
2018-03-02T16:29:48Z pjb: This is why we need QUOTE: when we need to put some literal data in a program; since the program is itself normal lisp data, we need an operator to prevent evaluating the literal data: we use quote.
2018-03-02T16:30:12Z pjb: (list 5 (quote =) (quote (+ 2 3)) (quote =) (+ 2 3)) #| --> (5 = (+ 2 3) = 5) |#
2018-03-02T16:30:51Z pjb: (list 5 (quote =) (quote (+ 2 3)) (quote =) (+ 2 3)) is data, a list of 6 elements.  When we evaluate it, we get the list of 5 elements: (5 = (+ 2 3) = 5).
2018-03-02T16:30:55Z gypsydav_: Sure, but eval to one side for a second, just as data - (list 'quote 1) vs.  (list
2018-03-02T16:31:03Z gypsydav_: Sure, but eval to one side for a second, just as data - (list 'quote 1) vs.  (list '1+ 1)
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2018-03-02T16:31:27Z pjb: Notice how the list (list 5 (quote =) (quote (+ 2 3)) (quote =) (+ 2 3)) can be evaluated without signaling an error, while the list (5 = (+ 2 3) = 5) cannot be evaluated without signaling an error.
2018-03-02T16:31:35Z pjb: We call the former a form, and the later a sexp.
2018-03-02T16:31:42Z pjb: (forms are sexps too).
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2018-03-02T16:31:46Z gypsydav_: OK, now we're getting somewhere
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2018-03-02T16:33:47Z gypsydav_: Actually, no we're not... (list 'quote 1) isn't a list, but (list '1+ 1) is a list... eh?
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2018-03-02T16:33:50Z pjb: gypsydav_: but notice also that in lisp, errors are not _exceptions_; they're just _conditions_. There are other conditions that are not errors.  And you can handle conditions.  So (handler-case (eval '(5 = (+ 2 3))) (t () 42)) #| --> 42 |#  doesn't signal an error.  EVAL will signal an error when interpreting (5 = (+ 2 3)), but this condition will be handled by the handler-case, and it will return 42.
2018-03-02T16:34:09Z pjb: both  (list 'quote 1) and  (list '1+ 1)  are lists!
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2018-03-02T16:34:27Z gypsydav_: then what's the car of (list 'quote 1)
2018-03-02T16:34:30Z pjb: (let ((a (quote (list 'quote 1)))  (b (quote (list '1+ 1))))  (and (listp a) (listp b))) #| --> t |#
2018-03-02T16:34:34Z phoe: gypsydav_: the symbol QUOTE
2018-03-02T16:34:42Z pjb: (let ((a (quote (list 'quote 1)))  (b (quote (list '1+ 1))))  (values (car a) (car b))) #| --> list ; list |#
2018-03-02T16:34:51Z pjb: in both cases: LIST.
2018-03-02T16:34:58Z pjb: (let ((a (quote (list 'quote 1)))  (b (quote (list '1+ 1))))  (values (second a) (second b))) #| --> 'quote ; '1+ |#
2018-03-02T16:35:02Z random-nick: gypsydav_: when quoted or when evaluated
2018-03-02T16:35:16Z phoe: '(quote 1) and (list 'quote 1) both produce a list of length 2 whose CAR is QUOTE and CADR is 1
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2018-03-02T16:35:36Z beach: gypsydav_: You need to be careful with the word "is".  "<mumble> is a list" could mean that <mumble> is a list before being evaluated, or it could mean <mumble> evaluates to a list.  Those are very different meanings.
2018-03-02T16:35:47Z pjb: gypsydav_: so, since we write data instead of code, when we talk, we must always express whether we consider the plain data, or the result of evaluating the data!  This is the important point to understand.
2018-03-02T16:36:01Z beach: phoe: "produce", do you mean "evaluates to"?
2018-03-02T16:36:15Z beach: phoe: or do you mean that the reader returns what you said?
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2018-03-02T16:36:20Z pjb: gypsydav_:  (list 'quote 1) IS a list of 3 elements.    (list 'quote 1) EVALUATES to a list of 2 elements:  (quote 1)
2018-03-02T16:36:29Z gypsydav_: sure
2018-03-02T16:36:39Z pjb: gypsydav_: (quote 1)  IS a list of 2 elements.   (quote 1)  EVALUATES to an integer: 1
2018-03-02T16:36:49Z beach: pjb: Excellent!
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2018-03-02T16:37:10Z pjb: gypsydav_: if you make the distinction between what a lisp object IS  and what it EVALUATES to, you'll be fine.
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2018-03-02T16:37:41Z pjb: gypsydav_: notice also another thing: 'x READS as (CL:QUOTE X)
2018-03-02T16:38:48Z beach: pjb: Your pedagogical skills are improving by the minute.  Congratulations.
2018-03-02T16:38:50Z pjb: gypsydav_: and when we say in general (list 'quote 1) IS a list, we mean actually that it READS as a list.  This is dependent on the *readtable* context; it could read to something else, if a different reader macro was installed for #\(    (the character open parenthesis).
2018-03-02T16:38:57Z beach: ... and I mean it.
2018-03-02T16:39:22Z pjb: beach: that's always how I explain those things.   I find the scheme way very confusing for students.
2018-03-02T16:39:59Z beach: pjb: Maybe so, but you also have a tendency to confuse the hell out of newbies with too complicated examples.  Not this time, which is what I am remarking on.
2018-03-02T16:40:53Z dlowe: all that time in #clnoobs
2018-03-02T16:41:22Z beach does not participate in #clnoobs, but maybe he should.
2018-03-02T16:41:33Z gypsydav_: wait - there's a #clnoobs?
2018-03-02T16:41:37Z pjb: Yes.
2018-03-02T16:41:58Z gypsydav_: Maybe I'll just head over there for a bit ;)
2018-03-02T16:42:20Z gypsydav_: Thanks for your help y'all - doing some mulling now ...
2018-03-02T16:42:47Z dlowe: #lisp is a good spot too, but at #clnoobs, everyone is there for learning and/or teaching
2018-03-02T16:42:51Z beach: gypsydav_: You seem to have the right attitude, so I am sure you'll get it.
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2018-03-02T17:10:46Z phoe: beach: I meant "evaluate to", yes.
2018-03-02T17:11:00Z _death: (write (read-from-string "'x") :pretty t) ;; try also with :pretty nil
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2018-03-02T17:18:06Z beach: phoe: Yes, but that was not obvious.  So my message is "be very careful with terminology, especially when giving help to newbies".
2018-03-02T17:20:01Z phoe: beach: yes, thank you. I should sleep more before trying to teach.
2018-03-02T17:20:56Z beach: That's a very good plan actually.  It is important to have a clear mind when the pedagogical skills are needed.
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2018-03-02T18:53:00Z neirac: I was trying to move an application to openshift, is there any caveats at this point with sbcl/quicklisp on that platform ?
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2018-03-02T19:51:46Z flip214: White_Flame: right, sorry.
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2018-03-02T20:36:03Z jackdaniel: hah, CL support has been merged to Thrift project \o/ (lion share of work was done by uint_) - https://github.com/apache/thrift/commits/master
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2018-03-02T21:46:53Z jasom is trying to figure out how it differs from protobufs
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2018-03-02T21:49:13Z jasom: ah, Thrift is from facebook protocol buffers is from google.  The fact that they each came up with one, and that they are so similar,  suggests that it's at least useful when managing a large number of interconnected services
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2018-03-02T21:52:18Z stacksmith prays to God of Lisp: 'Please do not make me manage a large number of interconnected services... I'll do anything.'
2018-03-02T21:52:33Z dim: it's a binary RPC data format for exchange, basically
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2018-03-02T21:52:41Z jasom: But I do wonder what they do that XML/SOAP/ASN.1 didn't
2018-03-02T21:52:56Z rumbler31: you can get the length of fields without knowing them in advance
2018-03-02T21:53:02Z dim: Thrift goes further than that in also defining the RPC signatures and allowing standard code generation IIRC
2018-03-02T21:53:28Z jasom: Any format with an IDL can perform code generation though, right?
2018-03-02T21:53:31Z rumbler31: the protocol will tell you how many bytes constitute each field, in a manner that keeps the overhead low
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2018-03-02T21:54:21Z jasom: rumbler31: ah, so it's a performance/code simplicity advantage vs previous line formats?
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2018-03-02T21:55:24Z rumbler31: so you don't have to know anything about the format of the data as you serialize
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2018-03-02T21:55:36Z rumbler31: not vs line formats per se
2018-03-02T21:55:53Z dim: in the area see also http://ubf.github.io/ubf/ ; it goes a step further by taking care of a whole communication contract, not just single rpc calls but the transitions from one to another too
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2018-03-02T21:55:59Z foom2: XML, SOAP, and ASN.1 are _much_ more complex encodings.
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2018-03-02T21:56:48Z rumbler31: so if you want to naively serialize 3 32bit ints, you'll always use 98 bits
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2018-03-02T21:57:27Z jasom: rumbler31: is there any robustness against protocol disagreements?
2018-03-02T21:57:31Z rumbler31: with at least protocol buffers, they do an encoding that minimizes the number of bytes necessary to represent the number, while at the same time
2018-03-02T21:57:40Z rumbler31: I don't know what you mean.
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2018-03-02T21:57:59Z jackdaniel: that said I'm working on this (still wip): https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/51f7cdb3a774c451a88b95952b2c1b70
2018-03-02T21:58:00Z jasom: rumbler31: if one side things it's serializing 3 32 bit ints, but the other thinks it's receiveing a string?
2018-03-02T21:58:08Z rumbler31: so its built into the protocol
2018-03-02T21:58:15Z rumbler31: it knows that as it reads its reading an int
2018-03-02T21:58:45Z jackdaniel: (atm of course)
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2018-03-02T21:59:12Z jasom: rumbler31: but that relies on both sides having schema agreement, which will happen in properly functioning systems; is there any attempt to detect schema disagreement?
2018-03-02T21:59:23Z rumbler31: so disagreements don't come from the user's data format, you just read, and when you're done, you have all the fields
2018-03-02T21:59:40Z rumbler31: correct, on top of that, no I don't think there is an understanding of schema disagreements
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2018-03-02T22:00:03Z rumbler31: at least on google protocol buffers but I only topically inspected the implementation once last year
2018-03-02T22:00:16Z jasom: rumbler31: thanks for the info
2018-03-02T22:00:19Z rumbler31: you essentially get a dataset that you have to query
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2018-03-02T22:02:49Z rumbler31: but basically if you add or remove fields, you don't have to change anything in serialization.  If you added or lost a value you don't care about then you won't fail to parse the stream
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2018-03-02T22:33:15Z cgay: Slightly rephrased, protobuf readers know to ignore fields their schema version doesn't have yet. They never care about missing values unless they're marked "required" (a distinction that was removed in version 3 protobufs).
2018-03-02T22:35:20Z cgay: When I looked at Thrift, briefly, a few years ago it seems like protobufs with maps and a slightly nicer source syntax.
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2018-03-03T01:16:14Z noobly: there's no emacs channel right?
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2018-03-03T01:25:11Z whoman: noobly: there is
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2018-03-03T01:42:35Z pjb: However, ##lisp might be more indicated for emacs lisp questions, if you don't want it to be drowned in unrelated dribble.
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2018-03-03T01:47:48Z stacksmith: But not elisp, for god's sakes...
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2018-03-03T06:26:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-03T06:27:31Z st_iron: good morning beach
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2018-03-03T06:30:34Z beach: st_iron: What's up?
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2018-03-03T06:32:46Z st_iron: wrapping up my macros
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2018-03-03T07:24:34Z fdund: is there any money in writing commercial CL libraries?
2018-03-03T07:26:23Z Fare: hi!
2018-03-03T07:26:34Z Fare: fdund, probably not that much
2018-03-03T07:26:56Z Fare: fdund, although, someone is getting paid to develop CLIM, so that's one thing.
2018-03-03T07:27:38Z Fare: maybe I should go around begging money for ASDF, as was suggested by Dave C
2018-03-03T07:28:38Z fdund: i was thinking more in the direction of dual licensing, like Qt (and others) do
2018-03-03T07:28:57Z fdund: GPL open source, with a separate one for commercial closed source
2018-03-03T07:29:23Z easye: fare: I thought you quit ASDF?
2018-03-03T07:31:01Z easye: But the asdf-3.3 planning code was certainly a non-trivial task.
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2018-03-03T07:33:05Z Fare: easye, I'm glad at least one person here appreciates that
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2018-03-03T07:33:28Z easye: I *always* appreciate your work on ASDF, even if I disagree with parts.
2018-03-03T07:33:55Z Fare: It was months of work. As hard as ASDF 3.0, though less work because portable.
2018-03-03T07:34:13Z Fare: easye, I'm curious what parts you disagree with.
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2018-03-03T07:34:18Z easye: If you wanted to put out the proverbial cup, the CLF would definitely help with the support for a crowd source campaign.
2018-03-03T07:34:30Z Fare: I'm glad that someone has enough appreciation to actually understand and disagree!
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2018-03-03T07:35:19Z Fare: That's what Dave C suggested, except he said even if I stopped contributing, my work was worth an appreciation fund or something.
2018-03-03T07:35:24Z easye: Fare: No specifics at the moment off the top of my head.  I guess the most intelligent comment I can make is that sometimes you seem to make things more complicated than needed for the majority user.
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2018-03-03T07:35:55Z easye: But that is really unfair for me to say with debating a specific api changes or something, so practically a worthless comment.
2018-03-03T07:35:57Z Fare: I'm trying to simplify things for the user, at least in the common case.
2018-03-03T07:36:13Z easye: I know you are, and I appreciate that.
2018-03-03T07:36:17Z Fare: it is true that there are some quite advanced usage patterns hidden in there.
2018-03-03T07:36:28Z Fare: and sometimes bad ideas that are better removed later
2018-03-03T07:36:33Z easye: Look, it is very unfair for me to wave my hands here without specifics.
2018-03-03T07:36:58Z easye: Let's leave it at warm praise, and when I write something up, we'll take that up like we always do?
2018-03-03T07:37:24Z easye: fare: you coming to ELS 2018?
2018-03-03T07:37:59Z Fare: of my own not-so-good ideas that I committed and later deprecated or removed, require-system, load-system-operation, previous iterations of uiop/configuration.
2018-03-03T07:38:06Z Fare: the syntax-control still isn't in.
2018-03-03T07:38:22Z Fare: easye: probably not, though I'm still trying to find an excuse to go.
2018-03-03T07:38:35Z Fare: Maybe if I can convince my CEO that it'll be a good place to recruit...
2018-03-03T07:38:40Z easye: Please do.  I always enjoy chatting with you.
2018-03-03T07:38:52Z Fare: except that plan A will be to build in OCaml, not in Lisp.
2018-03-03T07:39:03Z Fare: Ah, I could come to recruit for my brother's project...
2018-03-03T07:39:11Z easye: I am gonna take the time on my own dime, instead of trying to convince my CEO.
2018-03-03T07:39:35Z Fare: going on my own dime might be possible... if I have a dime of my own.
2018-03-03T07:39:42Z easye snortws.
2018-03-03T07:39:58Z Fare: maybe I ought to do that ASDF fundraising
2018-03-03T07:41:07Z easye: Sure.  You can contact either me or Dave Cooper with questions.  We have the basic infrastructure ready from "Quicklisp out of beta", but it is a bit creaky and acl specific in my opinion.
2018-03-03T07:41:17Z Fare: but I'll have nothing new to present at ELS. Maybe a 5 minute state-of-ASDF, or a 5 minute "Come have fun with Gerbil!"
2018-03-03T07:41:59Z easye: *you* my friend are the presentation.  It always great to socialize with you to see what's going on in your brainn.
2018-03-03T07:42:32Z Fare: :-)
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2018-03-03T07:50:24Z beach: fdund: There are some bounties for McCLIM.  I don't know whether they correspond to what you want: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim/bounties
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2018-03-03T07:53:33Z beach: fdund: And if you want ideas for libraries and other code to work on, you can look at this list: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2018-03-03T07:54:32Z fdund: is a lisp OS still an ambition?
2018-03-03T07:54:41Z beach: For me it is.
2018-03-03T07:54:50Z fdund: good
2018-03-03T07:54:50Z fdund: :)
2018-03-03T07:54:59Z beach: And for the people working on Mezzano, but that's a bit different.
2018-03-03T07:55:06Z easye uses Emacs in lieu of a LispOS beta.
2018-03-03T07:55:23Z fdund: i've been reading the tunes archives -- anything else like that out there?
2018-03-03T07:55:34Z Fare: fdund, yes, TUNES is still an ambition!
2018-03-03T07:56:02Z fdund: seems completely dead
2018-03-03T07:56:18Z fdund: oh you're the fare in fare.tunes.org
2018-03-03T08:02:20Z beach: fdund: I am working on several projects on that list.  The most important one being the underlying Common Lisp implementation to be used as a basis for the operating system: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lisp-system.html
2018-03-03T08:02:55Z beach: fdund: That project is also being worked on by Bike and heisig, and part of it is used in the Clasp compiler.
2018-03-03T08:03:22Z beach: fdund: And I am working on this one: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/cl-editor.html
2018-03-03T08:04:31Z fdund: interesting, thanks
2018-03-03T08:05:08Z beach: fdund: jackdaniel and several other people are working on improving McCLIM.
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2018-03-03T08:17:30Z Fare: beach, aren't there many editors in CL already?
2018-03-03T08:17:49Z Fare: fdund, did you see my blog ngnghm.github.io ?
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2018-03-03T08:18:03Z beach: I am sure there are.  But none like what I am planning.
2018-03-03T08:18:31Z fdund: Fare: new to me, ill take a look
2018-03-03T08:19:08Z beach: fdund: Some of the ideas of Fare's blog are the same as my ideas about LispOS.
2018-03-03T08:19:28Z Fare: :-)
2018-03-03T08:20:46Z Fare: no, it's my ideas that are the same as yours!
2018-03-03T08:21:09Z beach: It's a movement!
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2018-03-03T08:21:44Z jackdaniel: both are observable phenomena of the same Form ;)
2018-03-03T08:21:49Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2018-03-03T08:22:20Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.  Did you manage to buy food yesterday?
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2018-03-03T08:22:56Z jackdaniel: yes, and I've returned safely
2018-03-03T08:23:14Z jackdaniel: (a bit of context: yesterday it was around -20°C here and I had to go shopping)
2018-03-03T08:25:07Z phoe: (let ((*temperature* (celsius 20))) (buy-food))
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2018-03-03T08:25:22Z phoe: do our implementations have support for first-class thermal environments?
2018-03-03T08:25:43Z jackdaniel: you have skipped minus sign
2018-03-03T08:25:53Z phoe: jackdaniel: no, I want +20°C
2018-03-03T08:26:11Z phoe: that is a comfortable temperature to buy food
2018-03-03T08:26:18Z jackdaniel: mhm
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2018-03-03T11:21:51Z AnononA: hi all i just got my self a steel series keyboard that has keys for macros and i have come accross this link http://techblog.steelseries.com/golisp/language-ref.html#macros
2018-03-03T11:22:14Z AnononA: now im i right to believe that this is what my keyboard supports for writing macros in the macro editor
2018-03-03T11:22:27Z AnononA: it says Go-lisp
2018-03-03T11:22:39Z AnononA: googles version of lisp
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2018-03-03T11:49:16Z beach: AnononA: Why would you need special keyboard support for writing macros?
2018-03-03T11:51:01Z beach: AnononA: Also, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  If you want to discuss other Lisp dialects, you may want to visit the specific channels for those dialects, or ##lisp for general discussions about Lisp-like languages.
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2018-03-03T11:54:15Z random-nick: AnononA: I don't think lisp macros have anything to do with keyboard macros
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2018-03-03T12:50:23Z _death: AnononA: doesn't look like "googles version of lisp", just another toy lisp implemented in go
2018-03-03T12:51:59Z nydel: good morning all
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2018-03-03T12:54:54Z Satou: Hello, I am really really new to Lisp, currently getting introduced to a CLisp course. Do you guys use it on a daily basis? if yes, what sort of projects do you do with it?
2018-03-03T12:56:40Z nydel: Satou: welcome. please consider a intro to commonlisp book. i would recommend Practical Common Lisp, here for you: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ -- we use LISP for everything. everything.
2018-03-03T12:56:59Z jackdaniel: Satou: Clisp is one of Common Lisp implementations
2018-03-03T12:57:19Z jackdaniel: generally language is referred as CL or Common Lisp
2018-03-03T12:57:31Z nydel: jackdaniel is right. also many prefer SBCL to CLISP. that is steel bank common lisp. i prefer it.
2018-03-03T12:57:33Z Satou: I understand that there are a lot of Lisp dialects, and Clojure and Scheme seem to be the ones most used
2018-03-03T12:57:52Z nydel: i doubt there is any evidence that clojure or scheme are more used than commonlisp.
2018-03-03T12:58:21Z Satou: maybe not, as I am new to this language and to functional programming, I might be wrong.
2018-03-03T12:58:25Z nydel: if you're picking out a lisp, try /join #lispcafe ... we are commolisp here.
2018-03-03T12:58:38Z Satou: thanks nydel
2018-03-03T12:58:42Z random-nick: common lisp implementations are not separate dialects
2018-03-03T12:58:51Z jackdaniel: Satou: Common Lisp is a not functional (it is multiparadigm)
2018-03-03T12:59:19Z Satou: I know that functional doesn't really depend on the language, you could write functional in anything.
2018-03-03T12:59:21Z jackdaniel: and CL is a standard which is implemented by: ccl, clisp, ecl, sbcl and more
2018-03-03T12:59:24Z nydel: jackdaniel: i always wished someone had told me "CL != FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING" in the very beginning.
2018-03-03T12:59:38Z jackdaniel: heh
2018-03-03T13:00:11Z nydel: Satou: you can write functional programming in CL for all intents and purposes.
2018-03-03T13:00:57Z nydel: i don't know a thing about scheme or clojure. those are dialects other than CL. as random-nick said, the different CL implementations listed by jackdaniel are not different dialects.
2018-03-03T13:01:08Z Satou: I'm also interested in what are sort of the limits of CL. I've understood to some extent how the usage of variables could lead to side effects.
2018-03-03T13:01:44Z jackdaniel: scheme has more focus on encouraging functional programming (scheme too), usual Common Lisp program mutates state a lot
2018-03-03T13:02:00Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Satou about gentle
2018-03-03T13:02:00Z minion: Satou: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2018-03-03T13:02:01Z random-nick: but do note that there are big differences between CL implementations, just like with any other programming language
2018-03-03T13:02:24Z Satou: thanks guys!
2018-03-03T13:03:18Z nydel: however CL does adhere to a standard across implementations. a topic we will not discuss at the moment! because it's saturday, baby!
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2018-03-03T13:03:35Z nydel: best of luck to you Satou
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2018-03-03T13:07:46Z beach: Satou: Common Lisp is a somewhat unusual choice if what you want to do is functional programming.  By restricting yourself to that particular paradigm, you are not using the full potential of the language.  And people who want to use functional programming typically choose a purely (or nearly so) functional language like Haskell or ML.
2018-03-03T13:08:20Z Satou: beach, Oddly enough, I'm in uni, and my FP class is using common lisp
2018-03-03T13:08:33Z beach: OK, fair enough.
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2018-03-03T13:08:55Z Satou: One thing that motivates me to learn CL is what Eric S. Raymond said about Lisp
2018-03-03T13:09:03Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-03T13:11:59Z nydel: cliki.net is a good resource for packaged examples of things people do with commonlisp currently(ish). also quicklisp.org will teach you how to quickly load most systems listed at cliki. you might get a sense of the 'limits' (rather something like 'topography') of the language that way.
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2018-03-03T13:52:56Z Shinmera: _death: I can't reproduce that Staple error you got. Other package inferred systems compile for me.
2018-03-03T13:56:14Z Shinmera: I also can't make sense of it.
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2018-03-03T14:01:29Z _death: investigating
2018-03-03T14:01:57Z Shinmera: The screenshot tells me that asdf:system-source-directory somehow returns a system, rather than a path.
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2018-03-03T14:03:54Z _death: no, it returns NIL..
2018-03-03T14:04:24Z Shinmera: Ah.
2018-03-03T14:06:03Z Shinmera: That's easy enough to work around.
2018-03-03T14:06:07Z _death: asdf manual says "ASDF does not provide a turnkey solution for locating data (or other miscellaneous) files that are distributed together with the source code of a system. Programmers can use system-source-directory to find such files. Returns a pathname object. The system-designator may be a string, symbol, or ASDF system object."
2018-03-03T14:06:15Z _death: no mention of NIL there..
2018-03-03T14:06:41Z Shinmera: Yeah, it's a plain function too, so it's not like something could have customised its behaviour directly.
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2018-03-03T14:10:30Z _death: every file has its own system, but a file's system (type package-inferred-system) has its source-file slot set to NIL
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2018-03-03T14:14:43Z Shinmera: Huh. Weird, since I tested it with another thing that supposedly uses package-inferred-systems and that worked fine.
2018-03-03T14:14:52Z Shinmera: At least with the toplevel system.
2018-03-03T14:15:09Z _death: yes, with the toplevel system it works fine
2018-03-03T14:15:26Z Shinmera: Ah, alright.
2018-03-03T14:15:35Z Shinmera: I added a check for null-ness, so it shouldn't crash there anymore.
2018-03-03T14:15:46Z _death: system-source-file docstring is "Return the source file in which system is defined." .. and I guess it's nil because there is no source file as these systems are generated at runtime
2018-03-03T14:16:35Z Shinmera: In order to make Staple well-usable for p-i-s there needs to be some more work done, but it should at least not crash anymore.
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2018-03-03T14:21:39Z _death: works ok now.. also, better wrap "~&~%The following systems could not be processed cleanly:~%~a" with ~@[...~]
2018-03-03T14:23:36Z Shinmera: Thanks for confirming
2018-03-03T14:24:29Z Shinmera: working on a new portacle release now
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2018-03-03T14:24:51Z Shinmera: not much in it though, just a fresher sbcl, and some minor fixes/resets.
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2018-03-03T15:38:18Z learning101: I am in a dilemma. I recently got a job in javascript profile and I have to become good in it, but what i really want is to learn lisp or haskell. Is it possible to learn both simultaneously?
2018-03-03T15:40:26Z flip214: learning101: do lisp in your free time
2018-03-03T15:40:29Z _death: you seem to be asking about your own psychology
2018-03-03T15:41:01Z cheers: learning101: learn haskell, then transition into purescript! :D
2018-03-03T15:41:06Z cheers: it compiles to js
2018-03-03T15:41:10Z cheers: transpiles*
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2018-03-03T15:53:29Z beach: flip214: Thanks for the feedback on the papers.  I think we will work on it this coming Wednesday.
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2018-03-03T15:58:01Z flip214: beach: you're welcome! no hurry, ELS is still 5 weeks away.
2018-03-03T15:58:40Z beach: Right.  I need to get cracking on the papers I agreed to review, though.
2018-03-03T15:59:14Z flip214: I've done 12 up to now... let's hope I'll get a few more done tonight.
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2018-03-03T16:01:53Z flip214: But I have to admit I cheated - I read 9 or so before the submission deadline and was lucky, only 2 of them got updated.
2018-03-03T16:02:03Z flip214: (hooray for diffpdf! ;)
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2018-03-03T16:05:19Z Shinmera is getting antsy
2018-03-03T16:06:36Z flip214: why, or what for?
2018-03-03T16:06:52Z Shinmera: People looking over my stuff always makes me antsy
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2018-03-03T16:07:32Z flip214: I'm sorry. Or is that about your household?
2018-03-03T16:07:47Z Shinmera: No, about the papers?
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2018-03-03T16:08:06Z flip214: ah, okay. I already apologized, didn't I?
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2018-03-03T16:08:22Z Shinmera: Well, there's nothing to apologise for, heh.
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2018-03-03T16:09:04Z flip214: perhaps, if it makes you uncomfortable? but yeah, I meant to be kind.
2018-03-03T16:09:12Z flip214: feedback is SO valuable.
2018-03-03T16:09:35Z Shinmera: It is.
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2018-03-03T16:10:09Z flip214: you're welcome, too!  ;)
2018-03-03T16:10:29Z flip214: I might BBL, gotta feed the kids (and myself, preferably).
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2018-03-03T16:25:16Z shka_: good evening
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2018-03-03T16:54:36Z Olaf`: How do I tell asdf that one file has a dependency on a non lisp file?
2018-03-03T16:56:55Z Shinmera: I think there's :static-file instead of :file
2018-03-03T16:56:57Z Xach: Olaf`: i know that it is possible, but not how, sorry.
2018-03-03T16:57:05Z Xach: Olaf`: what kind of non-lisp file is it, out of curiosity?
2018-03-03T16:57:27Z Olaf`: a javascript file
2018-03-03T16:58:14Z Olaf`: i searched for :static-file and found it.  Will check if it works.
2018-03-03T17:00:05Z Olaf`: Shinmera: It works, thank you
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2018-03-03T17:16:13Z rme: On CCL, (format t "~@<Retry ASDF operation.~@:>") signals an error.
2018-03-03T17:16:23Z rme: Presumably this is because the spec says "If the at-sign modifier is used with ~<...~:>, the entire remaining argument list is passed to the directive as its argument."
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2018-03-03T17:21:56Z pjb: rme: no, it's because almost all the format specifiers require an argument.
2018-03-03T17:22:05Z pjb: ~< needs one.
2018-03-03T17:22:14Z pjb: it can be an empty list, when it's not used…
2018-03-03T17:22:32Z pjb: (format nil "~@<Retry ASDF operation.~@:>" '()) -> "Retry ASDF operation."
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2018-03-03T17:26:59Z pjb: The way ~< is specified is clear: the argument is mandatory (it's the second argument to pprint-logical-block).
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2018-03-03T17:34:40Z rme: Yes, so ccl is rightfully expecting an argument, and is right to complain about its absence.
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2018-03-03T17:38:09Z rme: yes?
2018-03-03T17:38:41Z rme: ASDF uses that kind of format control string in multiple places.
2018-03-03T17:39:19Z Bike: if it's "the entire remaining argument list" isn't that just nil
2018-03-03T17:39:22Z Bike: clhs ~<
2018-03-03T17:39:22Z specbot: Matches: ~</justification, ~</logical-block.
2018-03-03T17:39:28Z Bike: clhs ~</logical-block
2018-03-03T17:39:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ceb.htm
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2018-03-03T17:42:11Z rme: I'm starting to think ccl is probably wrong here.  If the @ modifier is present, it seems like it ought to be OK if the "remaining argument list" is nil.
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2018-03-03T17:45:38Z rme steadies himself before looking at format.lisp
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2018-03-03T17:51:39Z Xach: gail weighed in
2018-03-03T17:52:27Z rme: Oh, so she did.  I should read mail instead of yap on IRC.
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2018-03-03T17:58:22Z pjb: rme: in any case, it would be nice if all implementations behaved the same.
2018-03-03T17:58:36Z pjb: For example, they all return 2 for (prog2 1 2 3)…
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2018-03-03T18:09:23Z stacksmith: pjb: what's the deal with prog2? CLHS says "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form."  How does that differ from prog1?
2018-03-03T18:09:45Z Bike: it's a typo.
2018-03-03T18:10:08Z stacksmith: That's what I thought.
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2018-03-03T18:26:00Z pjb: The thing is that since the specification is not formal, and is known to contain bugs, some level of consensual interpretation is left to the implementations. But it is better if all implementors agree on thos litigious points.  Unfortunately, on some important parts, they don't.  Eg. they could agree on how to do pathnames (both physical and logical) on POSIX systems, but they don't. :-(
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2018-03-03T18:28:51Z stacksmith: pjb: in the case of prog2 - what are the differences?
2018-03-03T18:29:08Z loli: prog1 returns the first expression
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2018-03-03T18:29:15Z loli: prog2 returns the 2nd expression
2018-03-03T18:30:21Z stacksmith: pjb: oh are you saying that they indeed do return 2?  I read it as 'I wish they would all return 2' ...
2018-03-03T18:31:03Z loli: (prog2 1 2 3) => 2
2018-03-03T18:31:10Z loli: (prog1 1 2 3) => 1
2018-03-03T18:31:30Z stacksmith: loli: I know.  I was asking pjb to clarify a statement earlier that I misunderstood.
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2018-03-03T18:35:35Z stacksmith: loli: And pointing out the CLHS typo.
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2018-03-03T19:44:48Z puchacz: hi; slime on slow device please. I am getting [Interrupted: time limit exhausted] on fuzzy completion
2018-03-03T19:45:10Z puchacz: I already changed something in contrib to 0, so it should mean no time limit
2018-03-03T19:45:15Z puchacz: one sec, I will find what it was
2018-03-03T19:46:05Z puchacz: (defcustom slime-fuzzy-completion-time-limit-in-msec 0)
2018-03-03T19:46:27Z puchacz: it was 1500
2018-03-03T19:46:50Z puchacz: and following comments, setting it to 0 should remove time limit
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2018-03-03T19:53:21Z flip214: puchacz: still, your emacs slime part might have a timeout configured
2018-03-03T19:53:27Z flip214: how long before this message comes up?
2018-03-03T19:53:57Z puchacz: flip214: good few seconds, so defo not 1500 ms
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2018-03-03T20:01:30Z flip214: puchacz: did you restart slime after changing that?
2018-03-03T20:02:38Z puchacz: flip214: ah - I need to restart emacs too
2018-03-03T20:02:45Z puchacz: not only lisp part
2018-03-03T20:02:48Z puchacz: right
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2018-03-03T20:03:55Z puchacz: one sec - recompiling
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2018-03-03T20:15:55Z jackdaniel: I've wrote some rendering approximation illustrations with McCLIM: http://hellsgate.pl/files/c885c815 (I'll make it one of clim-examples after adding some interactivity to it)
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2018-03-03T20:17:33Z jackdaniel: s/wrote/written/
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2018-03-03T20:21:47Z puchacz: flip214: no, it still times out after few seconds
2018-03-03T20:21:59Z puchacz: no idea where it is configured
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2018-03-03T20:36:05Z flip214: puchacz: well, why not do the auto-completion against a faster system, and just run the code on the slow target system anyway?
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2018-03-03T21:55:38Z flip214: now reading OOSCUCLOS...
2018-03-03T21:57:47Z flip214: ah, I read that already ... that's why it looks so familiar.
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2018-03-03T22:03:09Z whoman: o_o
2018-03-03T22:03:58Z flip214: so, 6 reviews still open... but not today.
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2018-03-03T22:09:06Z Shinmera: flip214: I get that acronym
2018-03-03T22:09:29Z puchacz: flip214: that's what I ended up doing
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2018-03-03T23:34:46Z malice: Hi! Is there some limit to what you can put in docstring?
2018-03-03T23:34:54Z malice: I am trying to write some macro, here's the code: https://pastebin.com/CGdcpzPB
2018-03-03T23:35:14Z malice: The problem is, it somehow does not work on the emacs level; indentation bugs and C-c C-c invoked to compile it fails somehow
2018-03-03T23:35:30Z malice: it looks as it treated the comment as the code, even though string does not end prematurely
2018-03-03T23:36:09Z malice: Is it the bug in my lisp-mode choice?
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2018-03-03T23:37:02Z pjb: malice: you are well below some inconvenient boundaries.
2018-03-03T23:37:17Z pjb: malice: however, emacs doesn't like to have open parentheses in strings in column 0.
2018-03-03T23:37:34Z pjb: malice: therefore it is advised to reformat, indent, or prefix those with a backslash.
2018-03-03T23:37:51Z pjb: malice: You don't need to wrap bodies in progn, the macro already provide it!
2018-03-03T23:38:01Z malice: What inconvenient boundaries are you talking about?
2018-03-03T23:38:06Z malice: And progn was the hack to help me indent it tbh
2018-03-03T23:38:12Z malice: but thank you for that :)
2018-03-03T23:38:21Z pjb: malice: when you have forms or strings that are too big, font-locking can have difficulties processing them.
2018-03-03T23:38:49Z pjb: If you add the backslashes, then indenting should proceed correctly.
2018-03-03T23:40:01Z malice: You mean, adding them at the beginning of the line, at the end of the line, or...?
2018-03-03T23:40:15Z malice: I tried appending \ to each line but it didn't help much
2018-03-03T23:40:28Z pjb: I said prefix.
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2018-03-03T23:41:11Z malice: Right. I don't know what I was thinking.
2018-03-03T23:41:27Z pjb: malice: (string= "\(" "(") -> t
2018-03-03T23:41:45Z malice: Is it emacs thing? Why does this work?
2018-03-03T23:41:49Z malice: Because it did work. Thank you.
2018-03-03T23:41:59Z pjb: But for regexps such as (re-search-backward "^(") it will ake a difference.
2018-03-03T23:42:15Z malice: I see.
2018-03-03T23:42:25Z pjb: Notice also that (symbolp '\() -> t
2018-03-03T23:42:25Z malice: I will probably use \( in strings too, then.
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2018-03-03T23:42:42Z malice: As using () sometimes breaks things
2018-03-03T23:43:09Z malice: Anyway, thanks for your help!
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2018-03-04T01:30:57Z trocado: hi! anyone knows what's going on with sbcl's site? seems down...
2018-03-04T01:32:11Z pierpa_: try asking in #sbcl
2018-03-04T01:32:19Z Bike: i think the answer is "sourceforge"
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2018-03-04T01:34:58Z trocado: is anything wrong with sourceforge? the landing page is opening on my machine.
2018-03-04T01:35:12Z Bike: yeah, but sbcl's hosting has been up and down rcently.
2018-03-04T01:35:37Z trocado: ok
2018-03-04T01:36:14Z trocado: you wouldn't know of a mirror for the manual?
2018-03-04T01:37:08Z Bike: google cache has it
2018-03-04T01:37:14Z Bike: as of a few days ago
2018-03-04T01:38:07Z trocado: i forgot about google cache, thanks!
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2018-03-04T02:41:14Z nydel: i don't think i've ever seriously used cmucl. i might be interested to try out CLX its built-in x11 gui interface, anyone used it to positive or negative experience?
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2018-03-04T02:49:04Z Bike: clx isn't cmucl-only
2018-03-04T02:49:28Z Bike: and programming with clx is equivalent to programming with xlib, that is to say, extraordinarily unpleasant
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2018-03-04T02:53:55Z Lycurgus: i used it before the fork
2018-03-04T02:54:14Z Lycurgus: fwiu they're still essentially similar
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2018-03-04T04:20:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-04T04:22:50Z Lycurgus: yello beach
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2018-03-04T04:23:03Z Lycurgus: oder moin
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2018-03-04T04:43:26Z beach: Lycurgus: So now that you know about all the activities toward a Lisp OS, have you decided to help out with some project?
2018-03-04T04:46:41Z Lycurgus: i have my own project
2018-03-04T04:46:56Z beach: What is that?
2018-03-04T04:47:05Z Lycurgus: i call it MCP
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2018-03-04T04:47:27Z Lycurgus: MCP/DCP
2018-03-04T04:48:38Z beach: And what does it do?
2018-03-04T04:48:44Z Lycurgus: the lisp image portion would be the "upper part" of MCP married to a SSI linux kernel
2018-03-04T04:49:02Z Lycurgus: and of course I'm not limited to lisp
2018-03-04T04:49:20Z Lycurgus: albeit fairly heavily committed
2018-03-04T05:00:37Z krwq: beach: are you talking about something else than mezzano?
2018-03-04T05:01:39Z beach: krwq: Yes: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-03-04T05:02:05Z krwq: beach: why not fork off mezzano?
2018-03-04T05:02:24Z beach: krwq: Very different goals.
2018-03-04T05:02:53Z krwq: beach: but you got something working, and I think it still might be less work to fix it than write a new one from the scratch
2018-03-04T05:03:19Z beach: I am afraid that it would be more than fixes.
2018-03-04T05:04:04Z krwq: beach: so what's the main difference?
2018-03-04T05:04:17Z beach: The underlying Common Lisp implementation I want must have first-class global environments, for example.
2018-03-04T05:04:40Z beach: That implies changes to the compiler.
2018-03-04T05:05:38Z krwq: beach: I'm not sure what do you mean by first-class global environment
2018-03-04T05:06:29Z beach: Hold on...
2018-03-04T05:07:43Z beach: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2018-03-04T05:08:44Z beach: krwq: First-class global environments is a requirement for multi-user functionality.
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2018-03-04T05:09:32Z krwq: beach: I'm not sure what do you mean by that but will try reading your article. have you started implementing that yet?
2018-03-04T05:09:45Z beach: Oh yes.
2018-03-04T05:09:59Z beach: minion: Please tell krwq about SICL.
2018-03-04T05:09:59Z minion: krwq: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-03-04T05:10:05Z beach: minion: Please tell krwq about Cleavir.
2018-03-04T05:10:05Z minion: krwq: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2018-03-04T05:10:36Z beach: krwq: I am working top-down and I try to make my stuff modular and implementation-independent as much as possible.
2018-03-04T05:10:57Z beach: krwq: Making it boot on bare metal will come much later.
2018-03-04T05:11:56Z krwq: beach: so your lisp OS idea has the different idea of how is data organized (i.e. no hierarchical paths) - that seems to be incompatible with CL - are you planning to update CL to like CL2?
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2018-03-04T05:12:56Z krwq: beach: i haven't read the whole (http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html) - too much data to digest with addition to your first-class global environments
2018-03-04T05:13:50Z krwq: beach: I'd vote for that btw - I do not like paths
2018-03-04T05:16:28Z beach: krwq: Some parts of Common Lisp may need some artificial support.
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2018-03-04T05:16:53Z beach: But, for the OS, it is not terribly important to me if things like pathnames are supported.
2018-03-04T05:17:39Z krwq: beach: it would be nice if you could translate that idea to paths as well and make both supported - filesystem can interpret slash as a separator for a list of categories
2018-03-04T05:18:03Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-04T05:18:19Z krwq: listing a directory would be pretty much as a search engine
2018-03-04T05:18:26Z Lycurgus: well the first thing that really gels/catches on will dominate, if any
2018-03-04T05:19:02Z krwq: Lycurgus: that's not often the best option though
2018-03-04T05:19:04Z Lycurgus: it's been a quixotic project for decades so the presumption must be nothing will
2018-03-04T05:19:19Z beach: Lycurgus: I'll say this again in case it hasn't been clear: I don't care if I will end up being the only user of what I create.
2018-03-04T05:19:30Z Lycurgus: except of course for the historical antecedent
2018-03-04T05:19:44Z Lycurgus: i definitely do care
2018-03-04T05:20:09Z Lycurgus: but OK if not
2018-03-04T05:20:45Z krwq: Lycurgus: I think it's better to share ideas like that - IMO this sounds really cool - I've spent a lot of time already trying to figure out how to organize my hierarchical paths
2018-03-04T05:20:52Z Lycurgus: operating systems aren't judged by what they're implemented in
2018-03-04T05:21:22Z loke: Even  if Beach doesn't implement pathnames it seems to me that such a concept can easy be built on top of the primitves he _do_ create.
2018-03-04T05:21:34Z beach: Lycurgus: What makes you say that?
2018-03-04T05:21:40Z Lycurgus: so sharing collides with the reality of the capital system, in which life actually occurs
2018-03-04T05:21:53Z krwq: but having said that if we apply this for paths we could do that as well for other things i.e. bindings - lexical bindings are also hierarchical
2018-03-04T05:22:03Z loke: I think they issue here is that pathnames themselves are not the idea fundamental mechanism to organise information.
2018-03-04T05:22:09Z loke: s/idea/ideal/
2018-03-04T05:23:18Z Lycurgus: an OS is a fundamental system resource that is judged on it's merits as such, that's what I meant by that
2018-03-04T05:23:20Z beach: Lycurgus: Just to be clear, what I am designing is not just another operating system similar to existing ones, except written in Common Lisp.
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2018-03-04T05:24:05Z beach: Lycurgus: I am a researcher.  I invent new ideas, test them, and document them in the form of papers.  The main test is whether the ideas are good or not.  Not whether it is used.  Of course, it is even better if it turns out to be useful to people.
2018-03-04T05:24:26Z krwq: good point
2018-03-04T05:24:54Z beach: But, there are so many psychological barriers in the domain of software that I strongly suspect very few people will be interested.
2018-03-04T05:25:56Z Lycurgus: beach, I see. I am not a researcher, I'm more interested in practical extension of current technical horizons
2018-03-04T05:26:07Z beach: Good for you.
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2018-03-04T05:26:59Z Lycurgus: so I use research results for that purpose but research for the sake of research doesn't appeal to me
2018-03-04T05:27:00Z beach: Lycurgus: So let's not assume any particular goals of each other's work.
2018-03-04T05:27:08Z Lycurgus: agreed
2018-03-04T05:27:17Z krwq: beach: if at any time in the future (file-read ...) and (read-file ...) will be the same you bought one user
2018-03-04T05:28:00Z beach: krwq: Sorry, the OS I am designing won't have any files. :)
2018-03-04T05:28:08Z Lycurgus: :)
2018-03-04T05:28:17Z beach: krwq: Partly joking.
2018-03-04T05:28:30Z krwq: beach: what is the planned concept for storing data then?
2018-03-04T05:28:33Z Lycurgus took it srsly as all gray streams
2018-03-04T05:28:39Z krwq: beach: just store and it will do whatever?
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2018-03-04T05:29:35Z beach: krwq: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2018-03-04T05:29:58Z beach: Specifically 1.2.3
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2018-03-04T05:30:14Z beach: And chapter 2.  But the design is very preliminary.
2018-03-04T05:31:13Z beach: Also 1.3.3
2018-03-04T05:31:21Z krwq: beach: I'm not seing any numbering there - am I missing some pdf?
2018-03-04T05:31:43Z krwq: beach: my bad I opened html
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2018-03-04T05:34:48Z krwq: beach: how long are you into lisp?
2018-03-04T05:37:25Z beach: krwq: Do you mean how long have I been using Lisp?
2018-03-04T05:37:40Z krwq: beach: yes, unless you got any other significant lisp date
2018-03-04T05:37:46Z beach: Since 1977 or so.
2018-03-04T05:37:59Z beach: So that would be 40 years.
2018-03-04T05:38:14Z beach: Of course it wasn't Common Lisp at the time.
2018-03-04T05:38:19Z krwq: beach: wow
2018-03-04T05:38:39Z krwq: i haven't been born yet back then
2018-03-04T05:39:00Z krwq: have you helped standardizing CL?
2018-03-04T05:39:22Z beach: No, I wasn't involved.
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2018-03-04T05:44:18Z whoman: beach: what other kind of languages have you used a lot of? just curious. thats a lot of lisp =)
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2018-03-04T05:45:16Z krwq: whoman: considering you can write DSLs in lisps that might be a tough question :)
2018-03-04T05:45:37Z krwq: s/write DSLs/write DSLs easily/
2018-03-04T05:48:47Z beach: whoman: A lot?  Pascal, PL/I, C, Scheme.  A little: Python, C++, Java, PostScript, Simula, APL, Metafont, and maybe some more.
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2018-03-04T06:08:42Z whoman: beach: alright, cool! =)
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2018-03-04T11:39:40Z flip214: Shinmera: thought so ;)
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2018-03-04T12:12:38Z sbat: \back
2018-03-04T12:12:42Z sbat: heh
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2018-03-04T12:35:32Z Murii|osx: Is there a function to check if a variable is set to 't'? Something to replace (eq var t) ?
2018-03-04T12:35:39Z malice: if
2018-03-04T12:35:43Z malice: when
2018-03-04T12:35:47Z phoe: #'identity
2018-03-04T12:36:00Z Murii|osx: something like how's endp, nilp or nil?
2018-03-04T12:36:02Z malice: if you just want the T and not anything else, then these won't do of course
2018-03-04T12:36:05Z phoe: Murii|osx: but you don't need that
2018-03-04T12:36:11Z phoe: you have generalized booleans in Lisp.
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2018-03-04T12:36:16Z malice: Yes.
2018-03-04T12:36:21Z phoe: so everything that isn't NIL is true in Lisp.
2018-03-04T12:36:27Z malice: Is that a problem?
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2018-03-04T12:36:38Z Murii|osx: I know, but I want to know if there's something specific for 't'
2018-03-04T12:36:43Z beach: Murii|osx: What is wrong with (eq var t)?
2018-03-04T12:36:43Z phoe: if you want to specifically check that a thing is *exactly* the symbol T, then (eq thing t) is the shortest way.
2018-03-04T12:36:54Z Murii|osx: phoe alright
2018-03-04T12:37:12Z Murii|osx: beach nothing, was wondering if there is something shorter
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2018-03-04T12:38:52Z kolb: (not (null x)) would be idiomatic I guess, but i'd just say x. Testing for (eq x t) specifically seems... unconventional.
2018-03-04T12:39:08Z phoe:  kolb: not really
2018-03-04T12:39:22Z Shinmera:  /even shorter/ than (eq t X)?? that's like four characters for the "function".
2018-03-04T12:39:22Z phoe: (not (null x)) is not equivalent to (eq x t)
2018-03-04T12:39:38Z kolb: I am not saying it is
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2018-03-04T12:40:29Z kolb: I am questioning the choices that lead to having to test for (eq x t)
2018-03-04T12:40:42Z Shinmera: kolb: Sometimes T is used as a special value.
2018-03-04T12:41:06Z Shinmera: For instance, I sometimes use it to denote "dwim" or "everything"
2018-03-04T12:41:44Z kolb: Hmm right, I guess like format does
2018-03-04T12:43:06Z malice: I have a problem with my ASD definition or quicklisp. Here's part with components: https://pastebin.com/SmVThpRa
2018-03-04T12:43:11Z malice: They are using :serial t, so I believe that they should load in descending order (top-to-bottom). However, when loading with (quickload :my-system :verbose t), I get a warning about PACKAGE::SOME-FUNCTION not being defined.
2018-03-04T12:43:16Z malice: This is indeed the case; there ought to be PACKAGE-UTILS::SOME-FUNCTION, defined in src/utils/file (and there is one). The PACKAGE-UTILS is :use'd in src/package, so in theory, this should be visible. Is this a problem with my ASD definition?
2018-03-04T12:43:33Z malice: Oh, and the warning comes from the "main", which is the last file to be loaded.
2018-03-04T12:46:57Z Shinmera: Sounds more like you're either forgetting the package prefix, forgetting to :use the package, or made a typo.
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2018-03-04T13:03:07Z beach: rme: Around?
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2018-03-04T13:14:55Z malice: Shinmera: neither; I forgot to export the function. Thanks for the tips!
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2018-03-04T14:15:43Z rme: beach: here
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2018-03-04T15:04:12Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: when do we get an ECL release ? I'd like to update the version used in cl-travis
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2018-03-04T15:45:13Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: best case in May (unless some unexpected stream of contributors appears)
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2018-03-04T15:48:05Z fe[nl]ix: luis: around ?
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2018-03-04T15:51:53Z New585: Hello, How can I know if I have aptitude for programming? Is it something which I can know?
2018-03-04T15:52:04Z beach: New585: Yes.
2018-03-04T15:52:18Z beach: There is no such thing as genetic aptitude.
2018-03-04T15:52:21Z beach: There is just hard work.
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2018-03-04T15:52:59Z stacksmith: If you enjoy it, it is not too hard.
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2018-03-04T15:52:59Z New585: beach: So if i work hard i can be good at it? It doesn't matter if I am weak at maths or not a bright student?
2018-03-04T15:53:25Z beach: New585: I suggest you read a book entitled "Peak, secrets from the new science of expertise"
2018-03-04T15:53:35Z New585: stacksmith: I do enjoy it. Whenever I am able to solve a question I get a sense of satisfaction
2018-03-04T15:53:57Z stacksmith: Go for it.  I dropped out of high school, and never looked back.
2018-03-04T15:54:07Z malice: New585: Unfortunately, all of us have left our crystal balls at different dimensions, so we can't say for sure, but if you keep practicing, you will at least become decent, which is good enough.
2018-03-04T15:54:15Z beach: New585: The amount of work can vary according to motivation of course.
2018-03-04T15:54:30Z stacksmith: Minimal math helps, but you can figure it out as you go.  It makes more sense when you see why you need it.
2018-03-04T15:54:30Z New585: Ok, I understand
2018-03-04T15:55:42Z New585: Thank you everyone and thanks beach I'll definitely read the book.
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2018-03-04T15:55:53Z beach: Good luck.
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2018-03-04T17:41:21Z drdo: Is there a function to take a subseq but with structural sharing?
2018-03-04T17:44:23Z drdo: Hmm looks like this displaced array thing is what I want
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2018-03-04T17:48:57Z phoe: drdo: in case of arrays, yes, in case of lists, only if you do NTHCDR.
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2018-03-04T18:49:19Z scmlinux: Could someone please share a tutorial on the installation of CLSQL in GNU CLISP? Bonus points if it has simple examples of its usage too.
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2018-03-04T18:58:02Z pjb: drdo: of course: there's nsubseq
2018-03-04T18:58:19Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq
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2018-03-04T18:58:39Z phoe: scmlinux: do you *have* to use CLISP?
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2018-03-04T19:02:55Z scmlinux: phoe, I'm open to other ideas.
2018-03-04T19:03:31Z phoe: scmlinux: SBCL
2018-03-04T19:05:06Z flip214: scmlinux: also, use quicklisp.
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2018-03-04T19:09:48Z random-nick: is there something like lispwork's CAPI in the free software world?
2018-03-04T19:10:11Z scmlinux: phoe, SBCL, aye?
2018-03-04T19:10:50Z scmlinux: flip214, will check it out.
2018-03-04T19:10:56Z jackdaniel: random-nick: McCLIM ;-) see frequently asked questions here: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/involve
2018-03-04T19:11:14Z jackdaniel: other options are listed there
2018-03-04T19:13:58Z stacksmith: scmlinux: SBCL is used by a good majority of Lisp programmers...  Anecdotally ~80% of market share.
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2018-03-04T19:21:48Z pjb: Too bad quicklisp download stats don't dispatch per implementation…  This could be gathered easily by quicklisp…
2018-03-04T19:23:37Z stacksmith: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/02/quicklisp-implementation-stats-for-2017.html
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2018-03-04T19:25:24Z scmlinux: stacksmith: thank you.
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2018-03-04T19:26:11Z pjb: It's even more like 90%.
2018-03-04T19:26:45Z stacksmith: Yeah, I couldn't remember and played it safe.
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2018-03-04T19:27:17Z pjb: 88.01461% to be exact.
2018-03-04T19:27:36Z stacksmith: It's pretty amazing actually.  I assumed it for just over half
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2018-03-04T20:18:28Z fiveop: Hi, a question regarding FILE-LENGTH. The Hyperspec says "For a binary file, the length is measured in units of the element type of the stream".
2018-03-04T20:18:52Z scmlinux: Does anyone know of good SBCL MySQL tutorial?
2018-03-04T20:18:53Z fiveop: It says nothing about text files.
2018-03-04T20:19:14Z fiveop: Is that intentional?
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2018-03-04T20:24:00Z comborico1611: scmlinux: I'm very new to Lisp, but I also would like to know of such a tutorial.
2018-03-04T20:25:52Z stacksmith: fiveop: for text files there is an assumption of 8-bit octets... Not standard.
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2018-03-04T20:29:33Z fiveop: it makes sense, because for variable length encodings you have to parse the whole file to determine its length, but why not mention that in the standard :/
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2018-03-04T20:36:27Z shka_: hey folks
2018-03-04T20:36:46Z shka_: is there are function that can translate lambda-list into call arguments?
2018-03-04T20:37:02Z shka_: for instance (a b &key c) -> (a b :c c)
2018-03-04T20:37:10Z aeth: stacksmith, pjb: Quicklisp doesn't have a tracking code built in for data or something, afaik. That's based on HTTP requests.
2018-03-04T20:37:27Z aeth: So SBCL users might just update more frequently than the rest.
2018-03-04T20:38:26Z aeth: Or maybe a handful of people run a lot of SBCL servers that pull directly from Quicklisp?
2018-03-04T20:38:47Z aeth: Or maybe SBCL users use more libraries?
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2018-03-04T20:39:18Z aeth: SBCL is probably the most common by far, but I don't think that that blog post gives exact numbers.
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2018-03-04T21:13:55Z stacksmith: Looks a tiny bit odd, but who knows.
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2018-03-04T21:14:11Z stacksmith: It is a pretty good implementation.
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2018-03-04T21:19:39Z Shinmera: CI distorts it a lot
2018-03-04T21:19:42Z Shinmera: and most CIs just run SBCL
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2018-03-04T21:47:23Z aeth: I suspect it's something like 2/3 SBCL, not 90% SBCL
2018-03-04T21:48:27Z aeth: The blog post probably gets the order right, though. At least for SBCL and CCL.
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2018-03-04T22:37:43Z fouric: 25k lw and 19k allegro O.o
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2018-03-04T22:39:28Z fouric: ...oh, but that could just be CI. Right.
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2018-03-04T23:02:03Z pillton: shka_: alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list does a lot of the work needed to do that task.
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2018-03-05T00:02:50Z _death: unexpected mention of common lisp in https://blog.jessfraz.com/post/nerd-sniped-by-binfmt_misc/
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2018-03-05T01:24:30Z dandruff: Would the Lisp Machine operating systems have been more portable and able to compete with Unix if they had been built around a Lisp that compiled to VM bytecode like Smalltalk?
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2018-03-05T01:44:06Z caffe: dandruff: no
2018-03-05T01:45:03Z caffe: the lisp machine processors don't actually understand lisp natively, it worked more in the sort of fashion you're describing
2018-03-05T01:45:19Z krwq: has anyone tried implementing lisp in brainfuck?
2018-03-05T01:45:32Z aeth: dandruff: The thing that killed Lisp Machines was, afaik, performance. The much cheaper commodity hardware eventually beat specialized hardware in Lisp performance.
2018-03-05T01:45:35Z aeth: krwq: Yes.
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2018-03-05T01:45:46Z krwq: aeth: got links?
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2018-03-05T01:46:17Z dandruff: krwq: found this - https://github.com/shinh/bflisp
2018-03-05T01:47:04Z krwq: dandruff: nice one
2018-03-05T01:48:18Z aeth: krwq: Well, I tried implementing it. I decided it wasn't worth my time to continue along that path because of how hard it is, even compared to directly writing in assembly. It looks like dandruff's link takes a much easier approach. Modify an existing C compiler, and then simply write a Lisp interpreter.
2018-03-05T01:49:54Z aeth: It was very hard. Strings that aren't NUL-terminated (it's trivial when they are) probably would take a week to write. I never finished that part.
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2018-03-05T01:52:59Z dandruff: caffe: right, I remember hearing that they were stack machines hardware support for bignums and GC. I can't find much on them, though. I haven't even been able to find if they used a monolithic kernel or something else entirely. I've been thinking about writing a Forth implementation in assembly with their features as a compilation target for Lisp Machine Lisp and looking for the source code.
2018-03-05T01:53:29Z dandruff: stack machines with hardware support*
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2018-03-05T02:03:21Z caffe: why not just write a ZetaLisp implementation for amd64?
2018-03-05T02:04:03Z caffe: (or a clone of it)
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2018-03-05T02:09:34Z stacksmith: I've spent a lot of time exploring ideas like that (and a few decades of writing Forth-like system for almost every imaginable platform)... It's one of those things like trying to build an interstellar spaceship...  A couple of decades of technology will make yours obsolete every time.
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2018-03-05T02:10:53Z stacksmith: Stack machines are dead - register architectures beat them every time.  It almost made sense a couple of decades ago to make super-simple super-fast Forth machines, but a decent compiler on a mobile phone can outstrip them for an general purpose tasks.
2018-03-05T02:11:45Z dandruff: caffe: Isn't the spec similar to Common Lisp's? Yikes. Anyone can implement Scheme in a day at most; SBCL couldn't even have been built from the ground up.
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2018-03-05T02:14:08Z dandruff: stacksmith: so that means that it would be impossible to make a reasonably performant system where a stack machine on an FPGA handles the compiled OS language and communicates with a normal CPU?
2018-03-05T02:14:42Z stacksmith: A couple of orders of magnitude in performance if you use an FPGA.
2018-03-05T02:15:02Z stacksmith: Just clock speed mind you.
2018-03-05T02:15:22Z caffe: dandruff: i'm not sure i'd start from the ground up... more likely taking something like SBCL or GCL and building down
2018-03-05T02:15:38Z stacksmith: I've spent a lot of time trying and it's fun.
2018-03-05T02:15:42Z caffe is currently working on such a project
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2018-03-05T02:16:22Z stacksmith: Chuck more has some gigahertz async stack machines, like a hundred of them, but they are so small that they are useless.
2018-03-05T02:17:19Z dandruff: asynchronous stack machines?
2018-03-05T02:18:40Z stacksmith: Yup.  Check out Green Arrays.  There is no clock, they run as fast as possible.  Generally stack machines have a couple of dozen instructions, and his processors do them all simultaneously while the decoder is figuring out the opcode.  Then the one you want gets the results latched.
2018-03-05T02:19:32Z dandruff: thanks, I'll take a look
2018-03-05T02:19:57Z stacksmith: But, Green Arrays is a couple of hundred async cpus with something like 256 bytes of ram each.  Just loading code into them makes me want to go take a bath.
2018-03-05T02:22:24Z pjb: dandruff: clisp is compiled to a VM byte code. Do you think clisp competes with linux?
2018-03-05T02:23:09Z caffe: if you really want to 'compete' with linux... the best way is to not compete with it at all
2018-03-05T02:23:26Z caffe: just adopt it and build on it
2018-03-05T02:24:16Z pjb: Or write an OS in lisp, and make linux irrelevant, like Android.
2018-03-05T02:24:17Z caffe: so maybe something like a Kernel Lisp Machine?
2018-03-05T02:24:23Z caffe: as a loadable module
2018-03-05T02:24:27Z pjb: done.
2018-03-05T02:24:39Z caffe: pjb: yep
2018-03-05T02:24:45Z pjb: caffe: well, not for CL, but for scheme.  How many times did you use the scheke linux loadable module?
2018-03-05T02:24:56Z pjb: See how useful that is.
2018-03-05T02:25:03Z caffe: never. wasn't aware it existed. don't do much with scheme, either
2018-03-05T02:25:30Z caffe: i have too strong a strong preference for CL
2018-03-05T02:25:44Z caffe: too strong a preference*
2018-03-05T02:26:11Z dandruff: If it's all embarrassingly parallel and they're an intermediary between an OS and the *real* hardware (some AMD or Intel chip), would the system still take a huge hit? pjb: Java is competitive with C, isn't it? Also, Android uses Linux IIRC. What I'd really like is something like Emacs all the way down with orthogonal persistence; I don't want to displace Linux.
2018-03-05T02:26:24Z aeth: There are two ways to do a LispOS. Bottom up and top down. By bottom up I mean start with the kernel and build your way up. By top down I mean start with user space applications and eventually replace intermediate components with Lisp equivalents.
2018-03-05T02:26:32Z caffe: dandruff: it might take a negligible hit
2018-03-05T02:26:45Z aeth: Starting with LispM hardware isn't even really a viable option for a LispOS at the moment.
2018-03-05T02:26:54Z caffe: but honestly, i'd rather let linux kernel devs work for me than try to work against them myself
2018-03-05T02:27:10Z aeth: The problem with the kernel isn't the kernel itself, it's the drivers.
2018-03-05T02:27:21Z aeth: There are basically two OSes that support lots of hardware. Windows and Linux.
2018-03-05T02:27:32Z aeth: Good luck.
2018-03-05T02:28:05Z caffe: the android-like approach would yield better results, and be easier to maintain and keep 'not obsolete' for a longer time
2018-03-05T02:28:29Z aeth: Yes, Android wisely sidesteps the driver issue that way, even though it's essentially JavaOS
2018-03-05T02:28:42Z caffe: most drivers would be developed for you upstream
2018-03-05T02:29:30Z caffe: i would hate to try to build the whole enchilada myself...
2018-03-05T02:29:46Z caffe: you'd die before your first release
2018-03-05T02:29:53Z caffe: with a 20 foot beard
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2018-03-05T02:30:51Z caffe: and a half-done project, at best
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2018-03-05T02:31:41Z caffe: riding on linux/GNU's back would allow your work to be finished before it becomes obsolete
2018-03-05T02:31:57Z caffe: and less ickly boilerplate for you
2018-03-05T02:32:02Z aeth: no, not GNU/Linux, Linux
2018-03-05T02:32:19Z aeth: You don't need GNU software
2018-03-05T02:32:39Z aeth: (well, except to build the kernel, but not every machine needs to build kernels)
2018-03-05T02:33:18Z caffe: you might not NEED it, but it would still be useful
2018-03-05T02:33:45Z caffe: i'd rather use GNU tls than write my own implementation
2018-03-05T02:33:56Z pjb: dandruff: it's mostly irrelevant if Android uses Linux.  Android application developers mostly don't touch unix.  The would have to code in C to even know it's there…
2018-03-05T02:34:03Z aeth: The really hard to replace things would probably be xorg and systemd
2018-03-05T02:34:13Z pjb: Basically, Linux is the device driver set of Android.
2018-03-05T02:34:27Z caffe: there's still GNU components in android
2018-03-05T02:34:37Z aeth: but it certainly shouldn't be called GNU/Linux
2018-03-05T02:34:47Z caffe: aeth: i wasn't trying to start that battle
2018-03-05T02:35:16Z pierpa: one could start from minix instead
2018-03-05T02:35:56Z aeth: caffe: Well, what I mean is, it doesn't matter whether you call Debian Linux distro or a GNU/Linux distro. But Android or a LispOS that took a similar use-the-Linux-kernel approach isn't "GNU/Linux" because the GNU would be marginalized if present at all
2018-03-05T02:36:01Z caffe: just nothing that both the kernel, and GNU utilities had very useful pieces you could utilize so you don't have to keep reinventing the wheel for every little thing, and focus more n developing the lisp environment
2018-03-05T02:36:11Z caffe: noting*
2018-03-05T02:36:55Z aeth: Well, you'd probably have to take the GNU approach of incremental replacement. That's how GNU gradually replaced Unix utilities afaik.
2018-03-05T02:37:49Z caffe: i'm aware, but i didn't say "Linux/GNU" to trigger anyone or start that old rant here
2018-03-05T02:37:59Z aeth: There'd be advantages to having a sh written in CL, but no need to prioritize writing one when bash, zsh, ksh, tcsh, etc., exist.
2018-03-05T02:38:17Z pjb: Yes, you could start rewriting the GNU tools in Lisp. ls, cp, cat, etc…  When you can rename the system from GNU/Linux to Lisp/Linux, you just replace Linux by Mezzano.
2018-03-05T02:38:34Z pjb: caffe: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/releases/tag/demo3
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2018-03-05T02:40:09Z aeth: pjb: Mezzano will get really interesting when (1) rich graphical CL applications move from cl-opengl to cl-vulkan and (2) Mezzano implements its own Vulkan backend (considerably easier to support than OpenGL)
2018-03-05T02:40:53Z dandruff: caffe: if the Linux kernel drivers all use POSIX syscalls, could one build a common API to convert their output to something readable by a Lisp OS? People could then rewrite them natively as the years go on.
2018-03-05T02:42:05Z caffe: i don't know. honestly, i think the pursuit of a Lisp OS is a dead end
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2018-03-05T02:43:15Z caffe: mixed-language systems aren't something i see us ever pulling away from
2018-03-05T02:43:54Z aeth: caffe: I suspect it will have similar issues as Lisp machines. Lisp machines went away because they were worse performance than commodity hardware. If running SBCL on the Linux kernel beats your LispOS in performance, it probably won't get many users, either.
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2018-03-05T02:44:02Z caffe: a Lisp OS would have 'purity' going for it, and little else. and probably wouldn't survive long, if even seeing the light of day
2018-03-05T02:44:19Z dandruff: I'd think so too, but I've heard some things from people who I know are working on neuromorphic chips. I doubt they're going to totally replace von Neumann architectures, but between them and quantum computers and other new hardware, I think we're about to take a turn for the weird
2018-03-05T02:44:31Z aeth: On the other hand, if a LispOS can have good performance, it could make sense as a lightweight OS for running Lisp applications in the cloud. Drivers wouldn't matter that much, either, if it's running in a VM.
2018-03-05T02:44:44Z aeth: Sure, no end users would use it, but at least it would have uses.
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2018-03-05T02:46:26Z dandruff: a functional language is truly platform-independent because lambda calculus abstractions are so powerful and have a common, tiny core. C's going to die along with Go and Java; if Lisp doesn't make a comeback, then Haskell will eat its lunch. Then we'll have to deal with templates and subverting the type system to get stuff done for who-knows-how-long.
2018-03-05T02:47:25Z aeth: dandruff: imo Haskell won't win because (1) it makes it hard to write multiparadigm code and (2) it's lazy
2018-03-05T02:48:04Z caffe: haskell is hard to read
2018-03-05T02:50:28Z dandruff: We're probably going to have computers with many processors with fundamentally different ways of computation, all with different roles and jerry-rigged integration. If something "just works", people will deal with it. I don't know that much about Haskell, but those monads look scary.
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2018-03-05T02:51:23Z aeth: dandruff: We'll have a CPU, a GPU, a TPU, a QPU, etc.
2018-03-05T02:51:55Z dandruff: we're gonna have PUs we can't even imagine!
2018-03-05T02:51:56Z aeth: Maybe an FPGA, too. Especially if they can rebrand it to *PU. Perhaps "R" for "Reprogrammable"?
2018-03-05T02:52:28Z Xach: The only on-topic connection I can tenuously make is Luke Gorrie's work on dedicated hardware running niche language binaries in userspace to do some amazing stuff. And only loosely relevant because he did some common lisp stuff, like an experimental CL tcp stack.
2018-03-05T02:52:41Z Xach: (he did the CL stuff long long ago)
2018-03-05T02:52:49Z dandruff: Xach: links? Sounds cool.
2018-03-05T02:54:43Z Xach: snabb switch is his work. it's based on luajit. he forked it into raptorjit. he also started teclo networks to do ip acceleration of mobile networks. both not in CL though, which is the topic of this channel.
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2018-03-05T02:55:20Z dandruff: thanks
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2018-03-05T03:54:29Z fouric: stacksmith: any feel for how much effort would be required to make a stack machine perform on par with a register machine?
2018-03-05T03:56:24Z fouric: I mean, yes, a mid-tier ARM CPU can destroy a stack machine that you build on an FPGA in your free time, but that's because one had a few orders of magnitude more time put into it than the other.
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2018-03-05T03:57:40Z fouric: Do you have informed guesses (you said you've been playing around with stack architectures for a bit) on if one or the other is easier to make better given equal effort?
2018-03-05T04:00:13Z pierpa: it is not possible to build a stack machine which performs on par with a register machine, unless the register is handicaped in some ways, or there are some constraints you are not mentioning
2018-03-05T04:00:43Z pierpa: such as a minimalistic compiler, for example
2018-03-05T04:00:48Z fouric: No constraints - just curiosity.
2018-03-05T04:01:01Z fouric: Why is it impossible?
2018-03-05T04:01:25Z pierpa: becasue the stack acts as a bottleneck which the register machine does not have
2018-03-05T04:01:35Z fouric: Got it.
2018-03-05T04:01:36Z Bike: stack means memory. memory is slow.
2018-03-05T04:02:02Z fouric: Erm, what if you implemented the stack using register-level SRAM?
2018-03-05T04:02:09Z pierpa: consider for example the JVM
2018-03-05T04:02:26Z fouric: ("register-level" being "small and very close to the CPU cores")
2018-03-05T04:02:43Z pierpa: JVM is a stack architecture. To get good performance, most of the work is the destackification of the code :)
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2018-03-05T04:03:02Z Bike: registers aren't sram. but whatever. you mean using the register file as stack space.
2018-03-05T04:03:12Z fouric: Yes, that. Sorry.
2018-03-05T04:03:37Z Bike: having more registers makes them harder to use, since it takes more bits to address them.
2018-03-05T04:03:44Z Bike: and if there aren't enough you have a stack too small to be very useful.
2018-03-05T04:04:09Z Bike: kind of a "why don't they just make the whole plane out of the blackbox material" question there
2018-03-05T04:04:24Z Xach: heh
2018-03-05T04:04:38Z fouric: But registers are limited in quantity, too - and have to be swapped out to RAM when you make function calls, right?
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2018-03-05T04:04:58Z Bike: sometimes, some of them.
2018-03-05T04:05:30Z Bike: but stack machines would not be any less hit by such considerations
2018-03-05T04:05:55Z pierpa: the need to spill to memory is not different. The possible parallelism in the instruction stream is different.
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2018-03-05T04:07:23Z fouric: I can sort of see that. Something something it's harder to design a CPU that reorders operations on a stack than one that does so with named registers?
2018-03-05T04:08:10Z pierpa: I think this is the current consensus, yes
2018-03-05T04:10:24Z fouric: I think I understand. Thanks for the explanations!
2018-03-05T04:10:39Z pierpa: OTOH, stack architectures are kind of cute
2018-03-05T04:10:54Z pierpa: in a minimalistic sense of cute
2018-03-05T04:11:23Z Bike: unlike really used modern architectures, which are the exact opposite of cute
2018-03-05T04:11:41Z pierpa: yep
2018-03-05T04:12:36Z pierpa: RISC-V is not bad thought. Hope we will have soon workable boards...
2018-03-05T04:12:48Z pierpa: *though
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2018-03-05T04:15:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-05T04:15:34Z Bike: goodmorning
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2018-03-05T04:22:50Z stacksmith: Good morning.
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2018-03-05T04:40:34Z aeth: It would probably be more productive to make a RISC-V CPU in a CL DSL (that compiles to Verilog or VHDL?) than to make a specialized, Lisp-oriented CPU.
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2018-03-05T04:43:06Z fouric shudders at the thought of making anything that emits Verilog as a backend
2018-03-05T04:43:18Z vtomole: Why? The CPUs we use now run Lisp just fine.
2018-03-05T04:43:52Z pierpa: btw, a RISC-V working group about extensions useful for dynamic languages has just been created.
2018-03-05T04:43:58Z beach: vtomole: Exactly!
2018-03-05T04:45:16Z pierpa: https://groups.google.com/a/groups.riscv.org/forum/#!msg/sw-dev/esYoby-4_GU/Ootasrz8AgAJ
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2018-03-05T04:47:44Z pierpa: well, it would be nice to have BOTH safe and fast code at thesame time. Just saying...
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2018-03-05T04:51:04Z beach: I think that is possible with existing CPUs, unless of course you deliberately make the compiler emit unsafe code.  And I think that any attempt to make specialized hardware will be so much slower than existing CPUs that the performance hit will be much worse than the additional cost of just emitting safe code on existing CPUs.
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2018-03-05T04:51:58Z beach: Sure, you can dream of Intel or AMD making a processor that is as fast as existing ones but specialized for Lisp.  But that aint gonna happen.
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2018-03-05T04:52:56Z pierpa: specialized instructions could give array bounds checking with no performance penalty, for example
2018-03-05T04:53:17Z pierpa: it IS happening for RISC-V though
2018-03-05T04:53:29Z bjorkintosh: pierpa, how would you know you're working in lisp if there are no performance penalties??
2018-03-05T04:53:36Z beach: Yes, but array accesses are typically in a loop, so you can check the bounds once.
2018-03-05T04:53:39Z bjorkintosh: it's part of its charm!
2018-03-05T04:53:50Z pierpa: :)
2018-03-05T04:54:00Z beach: In my opinion, it is much better to focus on so called "aggressive "compiler optimizations than to dream of specialized processors.
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2018-03-05T04:55:44Z beach: pierpa: If only a single array reference is executed, then it is very likely that other stuff like function calls and such will dominate performance.  So it is best to focus on array references in loops.  And then we can often get rid of the bounds checking.
2018-03-05T04:56:09Z pierpa: it was just an example...
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2018-03-05T04:59:09Z beach: OK, here is another "mistake".  SBCL treats NIL specially, so that CAR and CDR is a valid operation on NIL without any special test for NIL.  But CAR and CDR are important for performance mostly in a loop, traversing the list.  And then, the compiler could emit code to check for CONSP first, which will almost always be true.
2018-03-05T04:59:10Z beach: Unfortunately, SBCL now needs two tests in each iteration, one for LISTP and one for NIL.  I think it is way more productive to think about how we organize our Common Lisp systems and what we want the compiler to do.
2018-03-05T05:00:13Z beach: In fact, for the entire SICL project, I am totally against unsafe code.  So I try very hard to make the code both safe and fast.
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2018-03-05T05:00:41Z pierpa: I'll have to study SICL
2018-03-05T05:01:01Z beach: I have thus invented fast generic-function dispatch, and I have a way of compiling the sequence functions that make them very fast as well.
2018-03-05T05:01:32Z beach: That kind of work is way more productive than dreaming of influencing major hardware manufacturers.
2018-03-05T05:01:40Z pierpa: I read your paper about this
2018-03-05T05:02:00Z pierpa: (the sequence one)
2018-03-05T05:02:12Z beach: Great!  Thanks.
2018-03-05T05:02:19Z pierpa: to you!
2018-03-05T05:04:06Z pierpa: but the hardware manufacturers *are* thinking about these issues. OK, they are thinking about Java, but probably it will benefit us as a side effect.
2018-03-05T05:04:10Z beach: Another thing is multi-threading.  I try to design the system so that locks can be avoided in favor of faster techniques such as CAS.  If you design your system without thinking of multi-threading, it won't matter what specialized processor it runs on; it will still be slow.
2018-03-05T05:04:45Z pierpa: yes, true
2018-03-05T05:05:03Z bjorkintosh: pierpa, why so worried about the hardware? is it that big a problem these days?
2018-03-05T05:05:07Z bjorkintosh: 8 cores too few?
2018-03-05T05:05:19Z pierpa: yes, they are never enough
2018-03-05T05:05:33Z bjorkintosh: hmm. have you looked into fpgas then?
2018-03-05T05:05:43Z bjorkintosh: perhaps you might find a handy, custom solution there.
2018-03-05T05:05:47Z pillton: beach: Do you really think multi threading is important? I would have thought copying a first class environment would be a better approach.
2018-03-05T05:05:53Z pierpa: I'm not a hardware designer
2018-03-05T05:05:54Z beach: Oh, right, cores.  We are still using stop-the-world garbage collection, simply because existing systems were designed without taking multiple cores into account.
2018-03-05T05:06:18Z bjorkintosh: so it's the implementation that needs some help.
2018-03-05T05:06:53Z beach: pillton: Yes, I do think it is important to think about multi-threading.  Because one part of memory management is common for all threads.
2018-03-05T05:08:32Z beach: In my opinion, these issues (and many more like them) are way more important than the raw speed of the processor.  But, of course, addressing these issues takes a lot of knowledge of compiler design, GC design, synchronization, etc.
2018-03-05T05:09:01Z pillton: beach: True. I hadn't considered that part. I was thinking at a higher level.
2018-03-05T05:10:36Z beach: I am thinking at least one core could be dedicated to global GC, running concurrently with the mutator threads.
2018-03-05T05:10:58Z aeth: Do CL native compilers use an assembler that's available (e.g. nasm) or do they do their own assmbling? (if that's the verb?)
2018-03-05T05:11:18Z bjorkintosh: aeth, it's lisp! everything is custom made by hand.
2018-03-05T05:11:53Z pierpa: aeth: I think that typically they use their own assembler
2018-03-05T05:12:21Z pierpa: I mean, none of the systems I know uses an external assembler
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2018-03-05T05:12:50Z pierpa: except, indirectly, the ones which compile to C
2018-03-05T05:13:33Z pierpa: ah, you said "native"! then no exceptions :)
2018-03-05T05:14:46Z beach: Existing assemblers are not adapted to on-the-fly compilation.  They assume the batch-compilation style of C-like languages, i.e. reading a source file, parsing it, emitting an object file.  All that parsing and file manipulation is wasted effort.
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2018-03-05T05:29:49Z fouric salivates at the idea of a fully concurrent GC in SBCL
2018-03-05T05:30:19Z fouric: (or any CL implementation, really)
2018-03-05T05:31:35Z beach: fouric: SBCL has a huge historical baggage in that a large part of it was written before we had things like multi-core processors, concurrent GC techniques, etc.  The signals I receive from SBCL maintainers are that no such radical changes in SBCL are possible.
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2018-03-05T05:35:31Z beach: That is why I think it is time to design a new Common Lisp implementation with all these new techniques in mind.  And I think it is important to focus on maintainability and portability, so that we can decrease the collective effort of maintaining free Common Lisp implementations.
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2018-03-05T05:39:50Z pierpa: yes, it is sad to see components which could have been written portably but they weren't.
2018-03-05T05:40:02Z stacksmith: I have a really hard time grokking SBCL's code generator and VOPs...  It would be nice to have something straightforward.  On the other hand, decades of accrued should not be underestimated...
2018-03-05T05:40:03Z beach: I totally agree.
2018-03-05T05:40:19Z beach: pierpa: I totally agree.
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2018-03-05T05:41:32Z beach: stacksmith: So what do you suggest?
2018-03-05T05:42:03Z stacksmith: Oh, just complaining.  Code generation and optisation is never easy...
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2018-03-05T05:43:18Z stacksmith: Is CCL's GC better?  I haven't spent much time with it...
2018-03-05T05:44:18Z beach: I don't know.
2018-03-05T05:45:24Z beach: The other thing is that for the past several decades, great progress has been made in the domain of compiler optimization techniques.  We need to read up on those techniques and see which ones can be applied to Common Lisp code, and perhaps how they need to be adapted.
2018-03-05T05:45:47Z aeth: stacksmith: SBCL is the most optimized CL, but you can write something that's considerably more optimized, if you had the time and/or money
2018-03-05T05:46:18Z aeth: Optimization's not easy, but it's not like the bar is set to an impossible height at the moment.
2018-03-05T05:46:23Z stacksmith: Don't forget the brain.
2018-03-05T05:47:24Z stacksmith: You can coax SBCL to produce decent code, but it takes some effort.  It took me a while to get used to a single function doing not too much compiling to  kilobytes of code...
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2018-03-05T05:49:53Z beach: Isn't that the direct result of wanting safe code without putting in enough declarations?
2018-03-05T05:50:57Z stacksmith: Indeed.
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2018-03-05T05:52:09Z aeth: I think you could get fast code without declarations for many things if you sacrificed two things: memory and compilation speed.
2018-03-05T05:52:55Z aeth: Live recompilation kind of complicates global analysis, but I think it can be done.
2018-03-05T05:53:02Z stacksmith: By keeping a lot of bookkeeping information around?
2018-03-05T05:53:09Z aeth: Exactly.
2018-03-05T05:54:04Z stacksmith: Have you looked at Self?  The polymorphic caches seemed like an interesting idea for accelerating dynamic dispatchin...
2018-03-05T05:54:06Z stacksmith: g
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2018-03-05T05:58:23Z aeth: Oh, I forgot, the other complicating factor is that you *can* access private functions, with ::
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2018-03-05T05:59:51Z vtomole: How about compiling CL-LLVM to take advantage of it's optimizing compiler? Is Clasp doing that?
2018-03-05T06:00:09Z k-hos: something something stalin
2018-03-05T06:00:33Z aeth: vtomole: I believe that the standard answer is that CL is just too different from C/C++
2018-03-05T06:00:58Z aeth: One of the standard examples is multiple return values. I forget the others.
2018-03-05T06:01:04Z aeth: This channel should have an FAQ.
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2018-03-05T06:01:39Z k-hos: mutltiple return values is something LLVM supports if I remember right
2018-03-05T06:01:59Z k-hos: LLVM isn't made specifically for c/c++
2018-03-05T06:02:09Z vtomole: aeth: I second the FAQ suggestion. What about C--? Haskell uses it.
2018-03-05T06:02:27Z stacksmith: LLVM does a few things that C can't...
2018-03-05T06:02:28Z k-hos: it supports a bunch of things that c/c++ doesn't, like half floats
2018-03-05T06:02:53Z k-hos: I wouldn't say 'can't'
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2018-03-05T06:03:28Z stacksmith: figuratively speaking :)
2018-03-05T06:03:29Z aeth: k-hos: CL is a fairly bizarre language, though, with an image-oriented interaction model that is like Smalltalk (and basically no other language?), a strange way to handle errors, etc.
2018-03-05T06:04:15Z pierpa: prolog
2018-03-05T06:04:24Z stacksmith: Forth
2018-03-05T06:04:46Z aeth: pierpa: Interestingly, CLs often came bundled with Prologs. I think all of the commercial ones still are.
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2018-03-05T06:05:03Z pierpa: Franz and LW, certainly do
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2018-03-05T06:09:40Z beach: vtomole: I don't know much about LLVM, but with Cleavir and Clasp we have run into several difficulties, mainly resulting from the combination of nested functions and threads made possible in Common Lisp.  This feature makes it hard to obtain a precise control flow, and thereby a precise data flow, and those are required for many optimizations.
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2018-03-05T06:13:19Z beach: vtomole: Oh, and there is another interesting mismatch.  Clasp uses C++ exceptions to implement non-local control transfers, which are common in Common Lisp.  But LLVM assumes that exceptions are infrequent, so they have not been sufficiently optimized.  This fact makes them almost useless for implementing Common Lisp.
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2018-03-05T07:40:41Z jasom: beach: it's more than "insufficiently optimized" they are specifically optimized in favor of low-overhead when not being thrown.
2018-03-05T07:41:23Z aeth: If I wanted to see how far I could get writing Lisp for x86-64, should I start with writing an assembler, or should I use an existing assembler and only write an assembler when needed?
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2018-03-05T07:42:54Z Shinmera: beach has an assembler in Lisp that supports AMD64
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2018-03-05T07:44:54Z Shinmera: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluster
2018-03-05T07:45:01Z aeth: Shinmera: This wouldn't be for actual users. This will probably be one of those projects where I'll implement 20% to 50%, learn what I wanted to learn, and leave it incomplete and never upload it to the Internet.
2018-03-05T07:45:18Z aeth: So it'd probably involve doing more from scratch than is rational.
2018-03-05T07:45:30Z Shinmera: The assembler is the least interesting part of a compiler
2018-03-05T07:45:43Z Shinmera: because it just does instruction encoding according to fixed rules.
2018-03-05T07:46:08Z Shinmera: Just write a compiler that either emits asm or use a library like beach's.
2018-03-05T07:46:13Z aeth: The most well defined parts of a program are the most interesting parts because they can be rewritten indefinitely.
2018-03-05T07:46:16Z dtornabene: hey all, I'm curious about macrolet, I've read some code using it, but I guess I don't understand a use case specifically that calls for something like that
2018-03-05T07:46:29Z Shinmera: aeth: What? No.
2018-03-05T07:47:02Z Shinmera: There's barely any creativity involved in writing an assembler.
2018-03-05T07:47:39Z Shinmera: dtornabene: Same as flet, keeping things in a local scope because they wouldn't make sense outside of that scope?
2018-03-05T07:48:00Z dtornabene: i guess I just don't understand the use of a macro for that over flet
2018-03-05T07:48:20Z Shinmera: Huh? flet makes functions. Functions are fundamentally different from macros.
2018-03-05T07:48:50Z dtornabene: right, I get that, why would you need to make a *local* macro, not a global one
2018-03-05T07:49:13Z aeth: You almost never do, but there's probably a case when you need it. A lot of the standard is like that.
2018-03-05T07:49:22Z Shinmera: Avoiding the pollution of the global namespace, keeping things semantically tied together to inform the reader that it's, well, local
2018-03-05T07:49:22Z dtornabene: local functions I get, not so much local macros, I guess I haven't travelled far enough down the path yet
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2018-03-05T07:49:39Z jackdaniel: dtornabene: because you may need it only locally (i.e for one use with dozen of constructs to have avoid code duplication)
2018-03-05T07:50:07Z jackdaniel: for instance: you define functions for rows and columns and they are different only in x y argument order
2018-03-05T07:50:08Z Shinmera: I also sometimes allow myself "pleasures" in local macros that I don't in global ones, such as not using gensyms or making them anaphoric in some sense.
2018-03-05T07:50:13Z dtornabene: i guess I need to grep some code bases and find examples to read
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2018-03-05T07:50:37Z dtornabene: ah, those make sense
2018-03-05T07:50:43Z dtornabene: thanks
2018-03-05T07:51:52Z jackdaniel: here is another example: http://hellsgate.pl/files/ff1e6fac
2018-03-05T07:51:56Z jackdaniel: (taken from McCLIM)
2018-03-05T07:52:34Z dtornabene: yep, I can see how that would make sense
2018-03-05T07:52:44Z dtornabene: thank you, both, much appreciated
2018-03-05T07:53:15Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-03-05T07:53:34Z dtornabene: i think what took me aback was the original cause for this finding a top-level definition using macrolet in the sbcl sources
2018-03-05T07:53:42Z dtornabene: didn't make sense right away
2018-03-05T07:54:03Z Shinmera: I also use macrolets if I just need to do a trivial expansion like here: https://github.com/Shinmera/crypto-shortcuts/blob/master/digests.lisp#L24
2018-03-05T07:55:23Z dtornabene: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/9ee5e0873f5c2e0cbffef4c701222dc902cbdc3c/src/assembly/x86/arith.lisp#L16
2018-03-05T07:55:58Z dtornabene: Shinmera: interesting
2018-03-05T07:56:41Z Shinmera: Grepping through my sources I found one of my favourite tricks again, ha ha. https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L380
2018-03-05T07:58:22Z Shinmera: dtornabene: I mean, that's just me, but I feel like the define-generic-arith-routine could easily be a standard macro definition too.
2018-03-05T07:58:33Z Shinmera: Or should just be one, even.
2018-03-05T07:59:14Z dtornabene: hahahaha, sweet. that makes me feel better. even though I had no idea macrolet existed before tonight and am glad to have learned about it
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2018-03-05T08:00:48Z dtornabene: which is weird, because I've frayed my copy of seibels book with use.  I must not have read that chapter that close
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2018-03-05T08:03:07Z jackdaniel: truth to be told it is not commonly used operator and one could live happily without it. that said it comes handy at times
2018-03-05T08:05:29Z jackdaniel: you may check out also symbol-macrolet. you could use it for something like (symbol-macrolet ((my-hash (gethash :foo *ht*))) (setf my-hash 10) my-hash)
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2018-03-05T08:16:35Z dtornabene: looking it up now jackdaniel
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2018-03-05T08:19:20Z dtornabene: now that looks interesting
2018-03-05T08:20:15Z dtornabene: looks like I have some practice code to write this week
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2018-03-05T08:26:09Z stacksmith: I think both are quite useful.  Without symbol-macrolet you couldn't have with-slots and such.  And macrolet becomes very handy for serious macro work.
2018-03-05T08:27:46Z jackdaniel: ClTl2 had some other goodies, like compiler-let :-)
2018-03-05T08:31:57Z hajovonta: hello all
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2018-03-05T08:46:10Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-03-05T08:56:23Z stacksmith: Is name-char only capable of names like "LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_A"?  My SBCL doesn't like "A" or 'A
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2018-03-05T09:07:44Z beach: stacksmith: If you have "A", then just do (CHAR "A" 0)
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2018-03-05T09:21:11Z solene: hello, I'm currently thinking about packaging lisp libraries for an operating system but I wonder if any software would benefit from this. I only know stumpwm as a lisp software. Does someone know some lisp software that would be interesting to package in an OS ?
2018-03-05T09:21:49Z beach: solene: McCLIM comes to mind.
2018-03-05T09:22:16Z solene: beach, it's a libraries, not an end-user software right ?
2018-03-05T09:22:28Z beach: McCLIM is a GUI library, yes.
2018-03-05T09:23:33Z solene: i'm looking for lisp software which could benefit from packaging libraries, to become available as packages. I don't know if I explain well :D
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2018-03-05T09:24:08Z Shinmera-: In my opinion it's wrong to package language libraries with the OS. We already have systems in place that do this, specifically for the language, in a better way than the OS ever could.
2018-03-05T09:24:12Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera
2018-03-05T09:25:10Z jdz: Also, common-lisp-controller has created more problems than it has solved, IMO.
2018-03-05T09:25:14Z Shinmera: Shipping language libraries with the OS only leads to the following: an incomplete, outdated, unmaintained set of libraries that will confuse newcomers.
2018-03-05T09:25:29Z jdz: It was a good effort, and has provided us with experience.
2018-03-05T09:27:47Z stacksmith: Can it do anything Quicklisp can't?
2018-03-05T09:28:49Z jdz: Yes — make you stuck with 3 year old implementation.
2018-03-05T09:28:50Z jackdaniel: sign packages come to mind
2018-03-05T09:28:50Z flip214: Shinmera: I would actually prefer if there was an OS-package-management compatible channel (so, eg. for Debian something like "testing" or "unstable"),
2018-03-05T09:29:03Z flip214: that would automatically track and package new quicklisp releases.
2018-03-05T09:29:30Z aeth: The only reason to put a library in an OS package manager is if an application that's also in the OS package manager uses those libraries. e.g. If your OS ships with stumpwm, and if stumpwm has any dependencies, then that's where it makes sense.
2018-03-05T09:29:31Z flip214: and if that kept older versions (like archive.debian.org) as well, it would be much cleaner to install such software.
2018-03-05T09:29:55Z flip214: aeth: many QL systems _do_ require some OS libs or binaries.
2018-03-05T09:30:06Z flip214: Anything that wants to compile a shared object, like osicat, for example.
2018-03-05T09:30:39Z flip214: --
2018-03-05T09:30:46Z aeth: That's not what I meant.
2018-03-05T09:31:11Z flip214: ISTR that hunchentoot (or cl-who or ...?) had a function that returns an URI with the current parameters, but with a few overrides?
2018-03-05T09:31:17Z Shinmera: The problem is Linux has too many distros. It is not feasible to maintain your package in every damn distro out there. And people are gonna run to /you/ for problems with their outdated OS packages.
2018-03-05T09:31:44Z flip214: Shinmera: debian already has an URL field for (nearly) automatic updates.
2018-03-05T09:31:47Z aeth: I meant that if your distro ships stumpwm in its package manager, then it makes sense for your OS to also ship CLX, a dependency of stumpwm. In that case, the distro's CLX is not for you, the CL programmer. It's for users of the distro's (outdated, but stable) stumpwm.
2018-03-05T09:31:50Z flip214: so that sounds like a cronjob to me.
2018-03-05T09:32:03Z Shinmera: flip214: So what
2018-03-05T09:32:17Z solene: Shinmera, I understand your opinion, but I think it as pros and cons to ship language lib in the system. At least if the package maintainer does it well, you are make sure the programs will run well because you tested it
2018-03-05T09:32:53Z jackdaniel: actually some distributions maintain clx package, I have a request from time to time to make a release, because they want to update
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2018-03-05T09:32:59Z Shinmera: I for one would be vehemently opposed to having any of my libraries in any of the linux distro package managers.
2018-03-05T09:33:22Z aeth: Then hope that no application that distros want to ship depends on them.
2018-03-05T09:33:54Z Shinmera: Fine by me.
2018-03-05T09:34:05Z aeth: The only CL application that I'm aware of in Fedora is maxima
2018-03-05T09:34:19Z solene: at least quicklisp runs as a user and is simple. Installing perl cpan modules in userland is a bit cumbersome in comparison
2018-03-05T09:34:21Z aeth: But Debian or Arch probably are eager to ship everything.
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2018-03-05T09:34:59Z aeth: Oh, Debian. That would frighten me as a library author. People using code I wrote many years ago?!
2018-03-05T09:35:10Z Shinmera: aeth: Exactly
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2018-03-05T09:35:18Z aeth: I understand why the xscreensaver person hated it
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2018-03-05T09:35:41Z Shinmera: We already have this problem: debian ships wildly outdated versions of libraries, and every so often someone thinks they should use them and then stumble in here wondering why nothing works.
2018-03-05T09:36:20Z solene: it's an interesting point of view I didn't think about
2018-03-05T09:37:25Z Shinmera: Ideally the lisp application would be shipped as a binary anyway, in which case it already has all the libraries in it. So the only thing needing access to libraries is the one making the package
2018-03-05T09:37:30Z Shinmera: In which case they can use Quicklisp or whatever.
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2018-03-05T09:37:53Z hajovonta: +1
2018-03-05T09:37:58Z aeth: I don't like it when some distros try to package literally every library on some language's package manager. Libraries from a language package manager (excluding C/C++ if they ever get one) should be strictly for dependencies for applications shipped in the distro package manager. But... there's no real way around it, or else they can't add that application at all.
2018-03-05T09:38:21Z aeth: Stale libraries is the cost of doing things the way distros do things.
2018-03-05T09:38:35Z solene: Shinmera, you can't ship a binary into the package, you have to put the build recipe to create the package, so you need others packages for the dependencies
2018-03-05T09:38:50Z Shinmera: solene: The build recipe can use Quicklisp
2018-03-05T09:38:58Z Shinmera: all it needs is an implementation.
2018-03-05T09:39:10Z solene: Shinmera, quicklisp should always produce the same build then
2018-03-05T09:39:21Z Shinmera: it can, just tag a specific version to download.
2018-03-05T09:39:34Z solene: so it's the same as packaging fixed version libraries
2018-03-05T09:39:45Z Shinmera: it's not, because the libraries never end up in the ecosystem
2018-03-05T09:39:48Z solene: I see
2018-03-05T09:40:07Z Shinmera: only the reproducibly built application does, which is fine.
2018-03-05T09:40:27Z solene: currently it's what I've done to package stumpwm, the build system download the few libraries to compile the stumpwm binary and it get packaged
2018-03-05T09:41:06Z solene: but then you miss the stumpwm reload flexibility
2018-03-05T09:42:06Z Shinmera: Not necessarily. After all, the binary will include a full Lisp, so you can just ask the user to download the sources somewhere and then direct stump to upgrade using those.
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2018-03-05T09:43:46Z Shinmera: In other news, Didier and I are testing the ELS registration in live mode now, so registration should be open today or tomorrow!
2018-03-05T09:43:53Z aeth: Shinmera: The binary won't necessarily include a full Lisp. Eventually, tree shakers will come.
2018-03-05T09:44:01Z Shinmera: It does at this time.
2018-03-05T09:44:04Z aeth: Probably not anytime soon, but in the scale of Debian releases, maybe soon
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2018-03-05T09:49:22Z Shinmera: Plus even with a tree shaker, anything using CLOS will likely pull in the full compiler anyway, so
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2018-03-05T09:52:29Z aeth: interesting
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2018-03-05T09:59:26Z beach: I personally think we should have a Common Lisp implementation with most of its system code, including the compiler, in a shared library.  That way, we have the full functionality of the system, without any complaints about the size of application binaries.
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2018-03-05T09:59:50Z loke: beach: Isn't that basically ECL?
2018-03-05T10:00:19Z Shinmera: Or libsbcl.so (whenever that finally happens)
2018-03-05T10:00:42Z beach: loke: Maybe so.  I don't know the ECL details.
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2018-03-05T10:02:56Z jackdaniel: yes, ecl binary is just a small wrapper over libecl.so
2018-03-05T10:03:04Z jackdaniel: (libecl.a is possible too)
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2018-03-05T10:03:41Z jackdaniel: and all compiled systems (i.e alexandria.fas) are in fact shared objects by default
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2018-03-05T10:04:16Z jackdaniel: (compiling systems to .so and .a is possible too)
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2018-03-05T10:21:45Z dtornabene: has anyone here ever read "The Semantics of Destructive Lisp"
2018-03-05T10:22:03Z beach: jackdaniel: Excellent!
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2018-03-05T10:29:46Z flip214: when I have an accessor name (for a CLOS slot), can I call the setter from that?
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2018-03-05T10:30:31Z flip214: (funcall (function `(setf ,accessor)) new-value)
2018-03-05T10:30:34Z flip214: or similar?
2018-03-05T10:30:44Z Shinmera: function won't work, but fdefinition will.
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2018-03-05T10:35:23Z beach: Why would FUNCTION not work?
2018-03-05T10:35:31Z Shinmera: because it can't do the runtime splicing?
2018-03-05T10:35:52Z beach: Yes, of course.  Heh.  I should have looked more closely.
2018-03-05T10:37:48Z flip214: Shinmera: Invalid function name: (SETF #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION DB-NAME (1)>)
2018-03-05T10:38:03Z flip214: ah, I must not pass #'db-name but 'db-name, right.
2018-03-05T10:38:04Z Shinmera: flip214: Well that's not a function name then.
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2018-03-05T10:39:22Z flip214: yeah.
2018-03-05T10:39:33Z flip214: I'm just used to pass #'functions around...
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2018-03-05T10:40:36Z thodg: is it possible to create a superclass to an existing class ?
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2018-03-05T10:40:54Z thodg: with clos-mop ?
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2018-03-05T10:41:29Z flip214: thodg: you change change the superclasses of an existing class, yes.
2018-03-05T10:41:36Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I saw the post you made on /r/lisp about thrift, have you tried it perchance?
2018-03-05T10:42:03Z beach: thodg: Yes, we do that with stealth mixins all the time.
2018-03-05T10:42:38Z flip214: hmmm, I managed to make postmodern return me
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2018-03-05T10:42:50Z beach: thodg: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Stealth-mixin
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2018-03-05T10:43:04Z flip214: database error 28000: no postgresql-username passed in initial packet.
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2018-03-05T10:44:59Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: yes, I've helped to integrate it
2018-03-05T10:46:39Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: so, if my understanding of the project is correct you can call functions/pass data back and forth between any of the supported languages?
2018-03-05T10:46:51Z jackdaniel: correct
2018-03-05T10:47:12Z jackdaniel: you are able to play with CL service provider from python for instance
2018-03-05T10:47:24Z jackdaniel: (and vice versa)
2018-03-05T10:47:25Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: and the calling of these functions must be two separate processes right?
2018-03-05T10:47:38Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: aka, you can't just call a c function without a c program running
2018-03-05T10:47:42Z jackdaniel: I don't understand
2018-03-05T10:47:53Z jackdaniel: ah, protocol is language agnostic
2018-03-05T10:48:15Z jackdaniel: you can't call a service method if there is no entity which provides the service
2018-03-05T10:48:26Z jmercouris: Yes, that was my question
2018-03-05T10:48:38Z jmercouris: very interesting technology
2018-03-05T10:48:47Z jmercouris: thank you for integrating it, I think I will use it for what I am doing
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2018-03-05T10:49:31Z jackdaniel: sure, good luck. when we fix the missing bits for CCL and ECL I will submit it to Quicklisp
2018-03-05T10:49:45Z jackdaniel: (the CL library that is)
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2018-03-05T10:49:57Z jmercouris: ah, so I'll have to use it with SBCL for now then
2018-03-05T10:50:38Z jackdaniel: you may also make a pull request with your favourite implementation port
2018-03-05T10:50:39Z jmercouris: it's definitely going to be a much less friction approach than me effectively reinventing a high level approach of that in my frontends
2018-03-05T10:51:01Z jmercouris: ok, I'll keep that in mind
2018-03-05T10:51:48Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: can you explain why someone would choose a different protocol in thrift?
2018-03-05T10:52:08Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: when I say protocol, I mean this: https://thrift.apache.org/docs/concepts#protocol
2018-03-05T10:52:34Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: as in, why should the user care what the "transport language" is (xml, json, plain text)?
2018-03-05T10:52:44Z jackdaniel: you may want to have more native types for instance
2018-03-05T10:53:05Z jackdaniel: transport language is important for things like data send performance (if you call services over the network)
2018-03-05T10:53:22Z jackdaniel: or how cpu usage when demarshalling data (when you are cpu bound)
2018-03-05T10:53:26Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what do mean by "more native types"?
2018-03-05T10:53:44Z jackdaniel: like i128, i256, long-double
2018-03-05T10:54:03Z jmercouris: Ah, I see
2018-03-05T10:54:06Z jackdaniel: dna-chain (for specialized protocols)
2018-03-05T10:54:22Z jmercouris: so is the transport protocol exposed to the implementor?
2018-03-05T10:54:32Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-03-05T10:54:35Z jmercouris: I assume I have to do write some "serialization" and "deserializaiton" stubs?
2018-03-05T10:54:44Z jmercouris: in the form of either inheritance or delegation?
2018-03-05T10:55:31Z jackdaniel: I think you'll be better served by the actual implementation and Thrift documentation than my faulty memory (and not-so-perfect English)
2018-03-05T10:55:45Z jmercouris: your english is fine, but I'll look at the docs anyway
2018-03-05T10:55:49Z jmercouris: thanks for the info
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2018-03-05T10:56:31Z jackdaniel: thanks, I hope it is - it is still not perfect (as asserted ;)
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2018-03-05T12:41:34Z hajovonta: what is the idiomatic form of binding variables to elements of a list?
2018-03-05T12:42:32Z hajovonta: like (multiple-value-bind (a b) (list 1 2) (list a b)) but it doesn't work because list only returns 1 value and the other will be nil.
2018-03-05T12:42:41Z Bicyclidine: destructuring-bind
2018-03-05T12:43:52Z hajovonta: thanks
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2018-03-05T12:48:45Z jmercouris: what if the values in the list are like this (list "key1" "value1" "key2" "value2") what's the best way to turn that into an easy to access data structure like a hash-table?
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2018-03-05T12:49:26Z Bicyclidine: (loop with result = (make-hash-table :test #'equal) for (key value) on list by #'cddr do (setf (gethash key result) value) finally (return result))
2018-03-05T12:50:14Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: I was hoping for some built in, a library I'm using returns json results in that manner
2018-03-05T12:50:33Z Bicyclidine: why does it matter if it's built in
2018-03-05T12:50:37Z flip214: jmercouris: (alexandria:plist-hash-table) or similar
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2018-03-05T12:51:02Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: Doesn't matter, just means I'd have to make a "utility" function, I wouldn't like embedding that snippet into my codebase
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2018-03-05T12:51:16Z jmercouris: like I wouldn't put that inline in every function that works with that list
2018-03-05T12:51:33Z jmercouris: flip214: that sounds good, thanks!
2018-03-05T12:51:33Z flip214: jmercouris: alexandria has quite a few such thingies
2018-03-05T12:51:38Z Bicyclidine: no, you'd put it in a function definition, obviously
2018-03-05T12:51:55Z flip214: jmercouris: but if there are not that many entries, a simple list might be faster to process.
2018-03-05T12:52:10Z flip214: jmercouris: or you could tell your json library to return a hash-table in the first place!
2018-03-05T12:52:44Z jmercouris: What I currently have is like a  (position "key" list) and then do nth +1 on the position of the key I'm looking for
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2018-03-05T12:53:11Z flip214: how many times is the question....
2018-03-05T12:53:38Z jmercouris: flip214: Not too many, so it is okay, I think it'd be smarter to change the json lib return though, you're right
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2018-03-05T12:53:54Z jmercouris: there is (yason:parse stream :object-as :plist), I'm sure there is :hash-table as well or something
2018-03-05T12:54:04Z jmercouris: I was just wondering about this problem in general
2018-03-05T12:55:11Z jmercouris: is there a way to get the documentation under the symbol at a point?
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2018-03-05T12:55:31Z jmercouris: e.g. (yason:parse ...) and my cursor is there, can I jump to the docstring for that function somehow?
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2018-03-05T12:56:18Z sigjuice: M-. to jump to the function
2018-03-05T12:56:49Z Bicyclidine: jmercouris: you can use getf instead of that position stuff.
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2018-03-05T12:56:55Z jmercouris: sigjuice: That is quite useful, that one I did know about though, imagine something more like a help buffer
2018-03-05T12:57:21Z Bicyclidine: no, wait, there's no test. guess you can't
2018-03-05T12:57:23Z sigjuice: and M-, to jump back
2018-03-05T12:57:50Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: yeah says only "identical"
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2018-03-05T12:58:22Z sigjuice: M-. on yason:parse did not show a docscring with any useful info about :object-as
2018-03-05T12:58:29Z jmercouris: The M-, jump back I did not know, interesting!
2018-03-05T12:59:08Z jmercouris: yeah, I wish it included a list of "keyword arguments" ... which "can be used to override the parser settings"
2018-03-05T12:59:14Z sigjuice: but M-. on *parse-object-as* says (defvar *parse-object-as* :hash-table)
2018-03-05T12:59:26Z jmercouris: but it is visible above in parse%
2018-03-05T12:59:41Z jmercouris: so maybe it does make more sense to just jump to source instead of opening a help buffer with the docstring
2018-03-05T13:00:13Z jmercouris: yeah, I see the following: (check-type *parse-object-as* (member :hash-table :alist :plist) as possibilities
2018-03-05T13:00:56Z jmercouris: so hash-table is the default then
2018-03-05T13:00:59Z sigjuice: I didn't read far enough to see that %parse was a thing.  I saw *parse-object-as* and immediately mmmdotted
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2018-03-05T13:01:35Z jmercouris: ah, the docstring for the defvar also includes that information
2018-03-05T13:01:51Z jmercouris: well, I'll be :)
2018-03-05T13:02:25Z jmercouris: so M-, always seems to unwind this stack
2018-03-05T13:02:29Z jmercouris: very useful
2018-03-05T13:03:16Z sigjuice: also a quick experiment: CL-USER> (with-input-from-string (s "{}") (yason:parse s)) => #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUAL :COUNT 0 {1008D960A3}>
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2018-03-05T13:54:04Z thodg: beach: thanks !
2018-03-05T13:54:20Z beach: thodg: Anytime!
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2018-03-05T13:57:37Z Shinmera just registered for ELS'18. Public registration imminent!
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2018-03-05T15:06:31Z Shinmera: http://www.soundboard.com/sb/OwenWilson
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2018-03-05T16:02:46Z borei: hi all
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2018-03-05T16:09:19Z borei: some non-technical thoughts, but rather more language philsophy. Using lisp for last 8 months i started to realise that im using (or trying to use) it in the same way like i used to use "traditional languages" - like C/C++ or python. The same classes, functions, program structure etc etc. Recentely i found very interesting book - "Let over lambda". That book is targetting to change approach in regards to programming in lisp. Now i'm trying
2018-03-05T16:09:19Z borei:  to find how to implement "true lisp" solution to particular problems. Not easy task id say.
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2018-03-05T16:11:41Z jackdaniel: borei: LoL doesn't show how Lisp practicioners solve problems. It may be amusing though.
2018-03-05T16:14:12Z borei: can't say, but it opened eyes is absolutely different way. I finally started to understand what is closure, but don't know how to use it, except for couter-like problem.
2018-03-05T16:14:27Z dlowe: borei: unlike some, CL is not an "opinionated" language, so you should feel free to work however you want.  You can pick tricks up along the way.
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2018-03-05T16:15:47Z borei: true, but i think very important part is - to know your "tools set" and to how to use that tools in most efficient way.
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2018-03-05T16:19:39Z jmercouris: borei: there is no most efficient way
2018-03-05T16:20:03Z jmercouris: it really depends on the problem at hand, different approaches lend themselves to different tools, in the context of lisp, that may mean different paradigms that it supports
2018-03-05T16:20:33Z jmercouris: what others have said is true, lisp is not opinionated, this flexibility allows you to adapt your style to the problem at hand
2018-03-05T16:21:04Z pjb: borei: closures are equivalent to objects.
2018-03-05T16:21:38Z jmercouris: pjb: That is a very interesting thought, I never thought of it that way
2018-03-05T16:21:47Z pjb: borei: the only difference, is that closures are anonymous, and have all their methods (functions) in the same lexical scope, while with CLOS, methods are written all over the place.
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2018-03-05T16:21:59Z pjb: and classes are named (usually).
2018-03-05T16:22:27Z jmercouris: If we have a reference to a closure, is it still considered anonymous?
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2018-03-05T16:22:52Z pjb: So in terms of software engineering, you will usually want classes, as soon as it becomes more complex than an anonymous object with one or two methods.
2018-03-05T16:23:11Z pjb: jmercouris: yes.  There's no (find-closure 'name)
2018-03-05T16:23:12Z jmercouris: what about this (defvar something (lambda () (print "my function"))) is my lambda still an anonymous function?
2018-03-05T16:23:29Z pjb: It is.
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2018-03-05T16:23:34Z pjb: (something) -> no such function.
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2018-03-05T16:23:49Z jmercouris: but I have a symbol pointing to it (or whatever the word for "something" in this context is)
2018-03-05T16:23:53Z jackdaniel: (let ((foo 3)) (defun bar () (incf foo))
2018-03-05T16:23:55Z pjb: jmercouris: but in general, you're right that naming is only a question of context.
2018-03-05T16:23:58Z jackdaniel: is bar anonymous? ;-)
2018-03-05T16:24:04Z jmercouris: but if I run (funcall something) it'll run
2018-03-05T16:24:37Z jackdaniel: that means it is a function
2018-03-05T16:24:42Z Bike: the songs name is called haddocks' eyes
2018-03-05T16:24:47Z pjb: And I argue that (lambda (x) x) is the name of the function (lambda (x) x), since we call functions with (<name> …)  and ((lambda (x) x) …) shows that (lambda (x) x) is the name.
2018-03-05T16:24:54Z jmercouris: the rabbit hole goes deeper... :D
2018-03-05T16:25:27Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: my point was that I have a way of invoking it by name
2018-03-05T16:25:42Z jmercouris: it's not referenceless, just unnamed
2018-03-05T16:25:53Z jackdaniel: no, you invoke it by references not by name
2018-03-05T16:26:06Z pjb: borei: one advantage of closures over CLOS objects, is that it takes its slots from the lexical environment. So "object construction" is easy and almost invisible.
2018-03-05T16:26:09Z jackdaniel: you'd invoke it by name if you had setf'ed some name fdefinition with it
2018-03-05T16:26:10Z jmercouris: anyways, when we say anonymous, we mean unnamed, then yes?
2018-03-05T16:26:27Z jackdaniel: and then called (my-name), or did (funcall 'fname)
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2018-03-05T16:27:13Z jackdaniel: anonymous function is a function which is not bound to an identifier
2018-03-05T16:27:26Z Bike: when we talk about anonymous functions, what we're actually trying to emphasize is that functions are values like anything else, rather than some details of how binding works.
2018-03-05T16:27:50Z jmercouris: Right, so not bound to a symbol, basically, unnamed
2018-03-05T16:28:02Z beach: jmercouris: In (defvar x 3) is 3 named?
2018-03-05T16:28:05Z jmercouris: maybe I'm not using the right words
2018-03-05T16:28:07Z Bike: many programming languages do not allow functions to be dealt with as values, and only allow referencing them less directly through names. that's it.
2018-03-05T16:28:08Z hajovonta: what I really liked is that the author showed that it's possible to keep the lexical environment
2018-03-05T16:28:10Z jmercouris: but I believe I understand
2018-03-05T16:28:22Z jmercouris: beach: no, but we have a reference to it
2018-03-05T16:28:33Z jmercouris: so all functions are anonymous, but we have references to them?
2018-03-05T16:28:36Z pjb: Well, really, there's no (function-name f) operator, so we could say that in lisp, no function is named.
2018-03-05T16:29:01Z pjb: You can implement function-name returning a list of symbols fbound to the function.  Not very satisfatory, and very slow.
2018-03-05T16:29:06Z beach: jmercouris: All Common Lisp objects are anonymous in that respect.  But we have references to them.  Otherwise the GC would get them.
2018-03-05T16:29:43Z jmercouris: interesting
2018-03-05T16:30:30Z beach: jmercouris: Common Lisp uses what I call "Uniform reference semantics".
2018-03-05T16:30:43Z jmercouris: is there a way to "dereference" a function and have it be garbage collected?
2018-03-05T16:30:54Z pjb: characters, classes, pathnames, sites, restarts, symbols and packages have names.
2018-03-05T16:30:56Z jmercouris: so if I do (defun lol ()) can I get rid of "lol" somehow?
2018-03-05T16:30:59Z beach: jmercouris: Lose all references to it.
2018-03-05T16:31:09Z jmercouris: I mean the function, not the symbol
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2018-03-05T16:31:18Z beach: jmercouris: (fmakunbound 'lol)
2018-03-05T16:31:20Z pjb: jmercouris: (defvar *lol* (function lol)) (fmakunbound 'lol)
2018-03-05T16:31:38Z pjb: and the function lol still exists, since you can (funcall *lol*)
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2018-03-05T16:33:24Z jmercouris: man, I feel like there is just so much stuff to learn about this language
2018-03-05T16:33:35Z jmercouris: "indefnite extent", just a rabbit hole every time
2018-03-05T16:34:12Z jmercouris: beach: I just looked it up in CLHS which led to global environment, then indefinite extend
2018-03-05T16:34:19Z jmercouris: s/extend/extent
2018-03-05T16:34:35Z hajovonta: the language is just a tool. But Common Lisp is a very powerful tool, indeed.
2018-03-05T16:36:21Z _death: jmercouris: the CLtL2 book has a great chapter about Scope and Extent
2018-03-05T16:37:38Z jmercouris: _death: cltl2?
2018-03-05T16:37:59Z beach: Wow.
2018-03-05T16:38:00Z pjb: minion: cltl2
2018-03-05T16:38:02Z minion: cltl2: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cltl2
2018-03-05T16:38:18Z pjb: but there's a description in that link.
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2018-03-05T16:38:42Z _death: but minion didn't find it
2018-03-05T16:38:43Z jmercouris: is this book available online?
2018-03-05T16:38:44Z beach: jmercouris: Common Lisp, the Language, Second edition.  Guy Steele.
2018-03-05T16:38:48Z beach: Yes.
2018-03-05T16:39:01Z pjb: _death: minion found the page, but it's not formatted to contain a _definition_.
2018-03-05T16:39:20Z jmercouris: for future readers:http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
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2018-03-05T16:41:26Z _death: maybe minion could pick the first line then
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2018-03-05T16:41:57Z pjb: Yes, something smart should be done.
2018-03-05T16:42:07Z beach: _death: I think the minion maintainer has declared that the Cliki format changed and he is not going to modify minion to recognize the new one.
2018-03-05T16:42:12Z pjb: (incf (AIQ minion))
2018-03-05T16:42:23Z jmercouris: I feel like Guy Steele is a name I've seen before, is there something he is famous for in the context of lisp?
2018-03-05T16:42:29Z _death: beach: a project for someone else then ;)
2018-03-05T16:42:33Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, a little :-)
2018-03-05T16:42:35Z beach: jmercouris: Are you serious?
2018-03-05T16:42:43Z jmercouris: I am being completely serious
2018-03-05T16:42:48Z jmercouris: I don't have the best of memory
2018-03-05T16:42:52Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_L._Steele_Jr.
2018-03-05T16:42:59Z beach: jmercouris: No, but you have a computer.
2018-03-05T16:43:20Z pjb: He's as famous as Sussman and Abelson.
2018-03-05T16:43:36Z jmercouris: so basically he made Scheme?
2018-03-05T16:43:42Z pjb: and Javsa.
2018-03-05T16:43:44Z pjb: Javsa.
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2018-03-05T16:43:46Z pjb: Java.
2018-03-05T16:43:55Z jmercouris: I feel so conflicted, he made java as well
2018-03-05T16:44:04Z pjb: The only question, is how many java programmers eventually switched to lisp?
2018-03-05T16:44:26Z pjb: The point of java was to bring C++ programmers over toward lisp.
2018-03-05T16:44:29Z jmercouris: I would be satisfied if my achievements had just 1% of that impact
2018-03-05T16:44:35Z pjb: So, garbage collector, dynamic classes, etc.
2018-03-05T16:44:55Z jmercouris: pjb: I used to be a professional java developer, so at least 1
2018-03-05T16:45:02Z pjb: Good.
2018-03-05T16:45:14Z pjb: Then he wasn't wrong in doing Java.
2018-03-05T16:45:42Z _death: he didn't make java, just wrote the spec ;)
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2018-03-05T16:45:52Z pjb: And of course, there's always will be FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition.  What a legacy!  https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2018-03-05T16:46:05Z beach: jmercouris: Java was a great improvement over what was before.
2018-03-05T16:46:24Z pjb: Sadly true.
2018-03-05T16:46:27Z beach: jmercouris: Java has (almost) uniform reference semantics, possible thanks to GC.
2018-03-05T16:47:36Z jmercouris: beach: I didn't live in a pre-java world, so it hard for me to judge what life was like then, but java is a great language, with great ideas, it's just a little too verbose for my taste
2018-03-05T16:48:14Z pjb: Bah, java8 has lambdas…
2018-03-05T16:48:18Z beach: jmercouris: It had no new ideas.  But it had the syntax that made C++ programmers think it was not too different.  Boy were they wrong.  It is closer to Common Lisp.
2018-03-05T16:49:52Z jmercouris: beach: why do you say that? because of GC? no pointers? stuff like that?
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2018-03-05T16:51:01Z beach: jmercouris: If you have no GC, you can't really program only with references (or pointers) as we do in Java or Common Lisp, because you never know how many references you have.  So you get this very complex programming style with templates, copy constructors, smart pointers, you name it.
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2018-03-05T16:51:49Z jmercouris: I wish I knew C++ so I could understand the differences, I only know some basic C which doesn't have any of those features as far as I know
2018-03-05T16:52:20Z jmercouris: an interesting story nontheless
2018-03-05T16:52:51Z beach: jmercouris: Correct, C doesn't have those, which makes it totally impossible to write applications in it.  The C++ features are there to make it somewhat possible.
2018-03-05T16:53:18Z jmercouris: I remember it being very difficult, yes
2018-03-05T16:53:41Z _death: sorry, I prefer C++ to Java ;) luckily, we agree on Lisp
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2018-03-05T17:10:29Z pjb: come on, come on, C11 has generics! You can write applications with it ;-)
2018-03-05T17:11:49Z beach: Yeah, right!
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2018-03-05T17:15:22Z beach: jmercouris: If you ever get stuck with using C or C++ to write applications, the best thing to do is to link you program with the Boehm/Weiser garbage collector and then you use pointers for everything just like we do in Java and Common Lisp.  That's the only sane way to write applications in those languages.
2018-03-05T17:16:25Z _death: really depends on what kind of application you're writing..
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2018-03-05T17:17:44Z jmercouris: beach: thanks for the advice, but I don't plan on working any C/++ jobs anytime soon :D
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2018-03-05T17:21:47Z pjb: yes, BoehmGC, and GnuMP for numbers :-)
2018-03-05T17:22:18Z pjb: Bref, you're redoing what's in ecl.
2018-03-05T17:22:31Z pjb: Just link with libecl, and do the sane thing!
2018-03-05T17:22:56Z beach: One may or may not be able to get away with that.  But yeah, that's a good idea.
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2018-03-05T17:48:31Z dim: well I still spend some time writting applications in C... in PostgreSQL-C that is... it's special, but not that bad
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2018-03-05T19:37:05Z comborico1611: Why is it when you do M-del in Slime, all the text is deleted except for all the parentheses?
2018-03-05T19:39:01Z pjb: comborico1611: type C-h k M-del
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2018-03-05T19:43:01Z comborico1611: pjb: Hmm.  I never realized that.  I am new to Emacs, though.  I just thought I would have realized that by now.  Weird.
2018-03-05T19:43:14Z comborico1611: Thanks!
2018-03-05T19:43:40Z pjb: so, the why is because it's bound to that paredit-backward-kill-word command.
2018-03-05T19:43:48Z comborico1611: pjb:  Best procedure then, is to kill line?
2018-03-05T19:43:49Z pjb: Now why do we have such a command in paredit?
2018-03-05T19:43:54Z pjb: Nope.
2018-03-05T19:44:07Z pjb: Best procedure is to understand that paredit provides a higher level editing mode.
2018-03-05T19:44:14Z comborico1611: I see.
2018-03-05T19:44:14Z pjb: paredit provides _structured_ editing.
2018-03-05T19:44:46Z comborico1611: I'll fight with it until I get this book knocked out.
2018-03-05T19:44:48Z pjb: Instead of editing the text, with indiscriminate structure, with paredit you're editing the sexp, with it's tree-like structure specified by the parentheses.
2018-03-05T19:45:00Z pjb: (and auxiliarily, by brackets, braces, and double quotes)
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2018-03-05T19:45:15Z pjb: So you have commands to process the text itself, and commands to process the structure of the sexp.
2018-03-05T19:45:45Z pjb: You can use C-M-k (kill-sexp) to kill a whole sexp.
2018-03-05T19:46:12Z pjb: C-k is paredit-kill, which respects the structure still.
2018-03-05T19:46:52Z pjb: and check the Paredit minor mode section.
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2018-03-05T19:57:51Z jmercouris: My advice would be to ignore paredit for now, and just use c-d to kill chars
2018-03-05T19:58:03Z jmercouris: or c-space, highlight and then c-w to kill
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2018-03-05T20:02:45Z comborico1611: jmercouris: Yeah, definitely not an essential skill at the moment.
2018-03-05T20:04:07Z dim: jmercouris: then why not ignore lisp altogether and go write Python code instead, I wonder? paredit is really nice to have, and like everything, demands some learning... when new to Emacs I'm not convinced paredit adds too much to the learning curve after all
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2018-03-05T20:04:39Z jmercouris: dim: You are free to your own opinion. You've presented a false dichotomy though; paredit or python, it doesn't work that way
2018-03-05T20:05:03Z jmercouris: paredit isnt THE killer feature that makes lisp good, so it doesn't merit frustrating new users
2018-03-05T20:05:16Z jmercouris: I believe it is best to slowly add things to your workflow as you master them instead of piling them on all at once
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2018-03-05T20:06:25Z rumbler31: I find a tension between new users losing their proper nesting while hearing that "lisp has no syntax" to be a strong driver behind calls to use paredit earlier than other tools
2018-03-05T20:06:42Z jmercouris: having said all of this, I would reccommend at a minimum smart-parens mode
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2018-03-05T20:07:30Z comborico1611: jmercouris: It appears some people forget how difficult it was starting off.
2018-03-05T20:08:04Z rumbler31: I remember losing my nesting and staring at the parens thinking, where the hell am I supposed to add the missing one!
2018-03-05T20:08:04Z jmercouris: they don't forget how hard it was, they think it will save you frustration in the very near future
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2018-03-05T20:08:20Z jmercouris: they are very correct about this, but I would say, when you get to that point, you can pick it up
2018-03-05T20:08:29Z comborico1611: rumbler31: That may be if the new user isn't using a book to guide them or something.  And that is more of an experienced programmer coming to Lisp.
2018-03-05T20:08:54Z dim: all I'm saying is that if new to Emacs and paredit is installed, I'd be surprised that learning how to use paredit in Emacs would be much more difficult than learning bare Emacs
2018-03-05T20:09:28Z dim: (ok I also said that I don't understand why you'd target lesser quality tools than the ones you have)
2018-03-05T20:09:42Z dim: one way or another learning new skills is very hard
2018-03-05T20:09:52Z rumbler31: comborico1611: what do you mean about using a book, are you following along in a text that is instructing you in what to type?
2018-03-05T20:10:18Z jmercouris: I don't disagree with you, it's not like I don't use paredit, I just think it's a lot for a new user, I could barely remember the movement commands after using emacs for a day
2018-03-05T20:10:34Z comborico1611: I suppose so.  The position I'm in at the moment is to focus 100% of my time working on this beginner's book to CL.  Then, if I'm still intersted in pursuing more Lisp coding, then add on things.
2018-03-05T20:10:40Z jmercouris: then again, it has been many years, so I am not sure how much I can really remember about how it was
2018-03-05T20:11:14Z comborico1611: rumbler31: yes, it is instructing me what to type.
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2018-03-05T20:13:09Z comborico1611: I would go so far as to say if one doesn't know Emacs, skip Emacs and go through this book, then pick it up later.  The disclaimer on that is whether the newcomer to Lisp is freestyling it or following in a book.  If they are freestyling/more advanced, then whatever they want to do.
2018-03-05T20:13:22Z rumbler31: what book?
2018-03-05T20:13:37Z comborico1611: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
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2018-03-05T20:16:19Z jmercouris: So, I'm thinking about how to represent something like the emacs window layout, I assume this done using a tree, right?
2018-03-05T20:17:10Z jmercouris: possibly like ("split-vertical" buffer1 ("split-horizontal" buffer2 buffer3))?
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2018-03-05T20:17:43Z jmercouris: this would I guess show buffer1 on the left hand side, and buffer2 in the top right corner, buffer3 in the bottom right corner
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2018-03-05T20:18:42Z cgay: You're more-or-less describing what a window layout looks like in CLIM/DUIM source code.
2018-03-05T20:18:54Z jackdaniel: I can't connect to european-lisp-symposium.org
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2018-03-05T20:19:21Z jmercouris: cgay: Ok, good to know that my reinvention of the wheel will be similar to existing paradigms :D, it means a step in the right direction I guess lol
2018-03-05T20:19:56Z k-hos: make your wheel a tank track
2018-03-05T20:20:23Z jmercouris: k-hos: is there some hidden advice in this?
2018-03-05T20:20:39Z k-hos: nope :>
2018-03-05T20:20:57Z jmercouris: ok, just checking :D
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2018-03-05T20:21:12Z Bike: just solid vehicle design advice.
2018-03-05T20:22:40Z rumbler31: that way you can steamroll your competition
2018-03-05T20:22:47Z rumbler31: I mean.... navigate any terrain
2018-03-05T20:23:01Z jmercouris: My issue is how I'll deal with traversal of this tree
2018-03-05T20:23:03Z Bike: the earth itself is my greatest rival.
2018-03-05T20:23:12Z jmercouris: basically implementing windmove will be a pain I believe
2018-03-05T20:23:24Z rumbler31: jmercouris: I recommend low gear and steady application of the throttle
2018-03-05T20:23:26Z jmercouris: I'll have to probably make a tree with references to parent as well
2018-03-05T20:24:11Z jmercouris: rumbler31: I'll keep that in mind, thanks :D
2018-03-05T20:24:52Z jmercouris: I think I'll use a structs to build my tree instead of plain lists, it'll make it conceptually easier for me
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2018-03-05T20:29:07Z cgay: Why would you even think of using plain lists? :)
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2018-03-05T21:55:46Z pjb: comborico1611: in anycase, for all the minor modes listed in C-h m, you can disable and enable them at will.  Most of the time, their command will toggle them:  M-x paredit-mode RET  Otherwise type C-u 0 M-x paredit-mode RET to disable, and C-u 1 M-x paredit-mode RET to enable.
2018-03-05T21:56:20Z pjb: However, before enabling paredit-mode you need to check that parentheses are well balanced. Use M-x check-parens RET
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2018-03-05T21:58:32Z pjb: And yes, I agree that newbies may start using NotePad.exe (or nano) to edit lisp, and use the clisp REPL in a terminal (or rlwrap ccl or rlwrap sbcl).  But not more than a couple of weeks.  Once you feel the pain of working with a text editor and in a terminal, you should switch to emacs+paredit+slime and understand their advantages.
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2018-03-05T22:39:07Z dim: what's the intended behavior when a condition is signaled and not handled from within a with-open-file form? is there an implicit unwind-protect that properly closes the file?
2018-03-05T22:40:15Z Shinmera: Just read clhs: "When control leaves the body, either normally or abnormally (such as by use of throw), the file is automatically closed. If a new output file is being written, and control leaves abnormally, the file is aborted and the file system is left, so far as possible, as if the file had never been opened.
2018-03-05T22:40:17Z Shinmera: "
2018-03-05T22:41:11Z dim: oh, that would explain, thanks
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2018-03-05T22:45:00Z dim: this old code of mine is a little hard to debug with its use of make-broadcast-stream to capture output and errors of uiop:run-program in both the console and a log file
2018-03-05T22:46:16Z dim: error handling is always the hardest part, right?
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2018-03-05T23:04:41Z pjb: dim: it's not that it's hard, it's that it may need to be exhaustive: the condition hierarchy in your application may easily be the triple of the size of your application class hierarchy.
2018-03-05T23:05:11Z comborico1611: pjb: Portacle has been a life-saver for me.  It should be one of the first things that comes out of the mouth of the Lisp community to beginners.
2018-03-05T23:05:34Z pjb: comborico1611: good for you. I don't know the first thing about portacle.
2018-03-05T23:05:42Z Shinmera: comborico1611: Glad to hear!
2018-03-05T23:06:18Z pjb: Having been into programming since 1975, I tend to either have learned stuff before stuff existed, or just have a natural preference to go to the main reference (however hard or arid it may be to read), and to build my own tools.
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2018-03-05T23:07:30Z fe[nl]ix: comborico1611: there is no Lisp community
2018-03-05T23:07:37Z pjb: Of course, I can understand the interest of having nice pedagogical environments (and even perhaps IDEs for professional work), but the former should be the task of teachers, and the both require a lot of resources to develop and maintain.
2018-03-05T23:07:38Z Shinmera: I've ironed out some more bugs in portacle today. There should be a new release tomorrow.
2018-03-05T23:07:59Z pjb: Notably, before portable there has already been 2 or 3 other such things for CL…
2018-03-05T23:08:12Z comborico1611: pjb: Yes, but as an active contributor to assisting beginners, I'm just telling you what my experience has been.  You listed your recommendation for newbies (emacs+paredit+slime).
2018-03-05T23:08:34Z pjb: comborico1611: perhaps you should update the http://cliki.net/Getting+Started page.
2018-03-05T23:08:46Z pjb: I usually refer people to that page.
2018-03-05T23:08:50Z Shinmera: pjb: None of them were close to as complete as Portacle though!
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2018-03-05T23:11:21Z comborico1611: pjb: I've never seen nor seen a reference to that website.  Sometimes #lisp is going to be the first place a person goes to for info.  Anyways, I'm not trying to debate what's the best resource avenue for a beginner, I'm just telling you what I think as a beginner.  And that is Portacle is the best thing out there for the growth of Common Lisp.
2018-03-05T23:12:02Z pjb: comborico1611: but don't tell it to me, since I'm a seasonned lisper.  Tell it to your fellow newbies, by updating this cliki page.
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2018-03-05T23:12:47Z pjb: It's when you're learning that you know best what information you need to learn.  Therefore it's now that you should document that, leavining little bread crumbs on cliki.net
2018-03-05T23:13:31Z comborico1611: pjb: I see.
2018-03-05T23:14:10Z pjb: And furthermore, have fun browsing this wiki, there is a lot of interesting informations and links.
2018-03-05T23:16:00Z comborico1611: pjb: Yeah, I think it is really adequate as it is.  My verbage would sound very fanatical/fan-boy.  The first subject of the page is Portacle, so that's on target.
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2018-03-05T23:16:14Z comborico1611: But I'll be sure to check it out more.
2018-03-05T23:17:09Z comborico1611: The book section is gold.
2018-03-05T23:17:28Z comborico1611: That's exactly what is needed.
2018-03-05T23:17:41Z pjb: Ah good, so it's up to date.
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2018-03-06T02:58:38Z shmup: which lisp has the best vim support? so slimv is a thing ok. i think with tpope's interest in clojure has developed a nicer thing for lisp/vim, though. are there other lisps which have had better attention/specific focus in vim?
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2018-03-06T03:00:57Z stacksmith: Which CPU has better vim support?
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2018-03-06T03:02:30Z shmup: heh. ok, i'll try again. which dialect of lisp has a nice vim community providing out of the box repl connection/spawning, mappings to eval an s-expression on current line, whole buffer, mappings defined for definition lookups, etc. tpope's clojure stuff is one example
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2018-03-06T03:03:42Z stylewarning: Why could this happen? Symbol "NIL" not found in the COMMON-LISP package.
2018-03-06T03:03:53Z smokeink: shmup: common lisp dialect, with slime + evil (vim) mode
2018-03-06T03:03:59Z Bike: do you have any context, stylewarning?
2018-03-06T03:04:06Z smokeink: shmup: inside emacs
2018-03-06T03:04:29Z stylewarning: Bike: I'm just using prin1-to-string (with print readably, *package* :keyword, and print pretty nil) and read-from-string
2018-03-06T03:04:55Z Bike: what are you printing?
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2018-03-06T03:06:14Z stylewarning: simple-vectors containing lists of complex numbers, possibly empty
2018-03-06T03:06:23Z stylewarning: (lists possibly empty, that is)
2018-03-06T03:06:45Z Bike: hm. sounds buggy. have you tried it in multiple implementations?
2018-03-06T03:07:08Z stylewarning: It's very hard to debug unfortunately. I can't replicate it locally, only in a SLAD binary.
2018-03-06T03:07:33Z stylewarning: with MPI, of all the god awful things to ruin debugability
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2018-03-06T03:32:14Z pillton: What is a SLAD binary?
2018-03-06T03:32:31Z Bike: save lisp and die
2018-03-06T03:33:18Z pillton: Really? Are we saying that now?
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2018-03-06T03:33:28Z Bike: It's hip.
2018-03-06T03:33:32Z pillton goes to find the cool kids.
2018-03-06T03:34:10Z aeth: s-l-a-d is its proper name
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2018-03-06T03:35:24Z aeth: I think that the cool kids are busy doing post-functional declarative programming.
2018-03-06T03:35:38Z aeth: Feel free to steal the buzzword, by the way.
2018-03-06T03:36:16Z k-hos: all my programming is unfunctional
2018-03-06T03:36:32Z k-hos: It's the newest trend
2018-03-06T03:36:41Z k-hos: you write a lot of code and then none of it works
2018-03-06T03:36:46Z aeth: "post-functional declarative programming" I guess would be declarative programming that's informed by recent trends in functional programming, but that's not functional.
2018-03-06T03:37:05Z aeth: (It also is post-functional because it used to run before it was rewritten to use that paradigm)
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2018-03-06T03:49:04Z stylewarning: pillton: is there a better way to say it
2018-03-06T03:49:32Z stylewarning: the baffling thing about this issue is that it works sometimes
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2018-03-06T04:02:13Z pillton: stylewarning: SLAD is fine I guess. Bike says it is hip and I am in no position to question Bike's wisdom on current street talk. I thought we said "a dumped image".
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2018-03-06T04:07:18Z pierpa: stylewarning: no idea about this problem, but, just to exclude some hypothesis, can you see if changing the string to "COMMON-LISP::NIL" changes the result?
2018-03-06T04:08:37Z |3b|: might also see what (symbol-name (list)) and (symbol-package (list)) return
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2018-03-06T04:09:20Z |3b|: but generally, the cause would be uninterning NIL from CL
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2018-03-06T04:09:49Z |3b|: (which is not a particularly conformant thing to do, so could cause any other random problems too)
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2018-03-06T04:10:06Z fouric: yes, that sounds like a *terrible* idea
2018-03-06T04:10:28Z |3b|: possibly something tried to unintern something else, without realizing it didn't have any something else (and so it had a NIL instead)
2018-03-06T04:11:27Z |3b|: either that or something trying to be a tree-shaker and going a bit too far
2018-03-06T04:12:04Z pierpa: since the problem appears to be pretty weird, we must test pretty weird hypotheses!
2018-03-06T04:12:47Z |3b| tried, and it does have that effect, surprisingly without any package lock problems
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2018-03-06T04:13:49Z |3b|: trying to READ cl::nil does get a package lock error afterwards though :p
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2018-03-06T06:09:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-06T06:31:49Z shka_: beach: hello
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2018-03-06T06:32:55Z phoe: Morning!
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2018-03-06T06:50:46Z flip214: uh.... why does https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ say "site not installed"!?!?!
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2018-03-06T06:51:57Z jackdaniel: I've mentioned it yesterday and pinged @elsconf on twitter
2018-03-06T06:52:09Z flip214: jackdaniel: okay, thanks!
2018-03-06T06:52:26Z jackdaniel: (no answer so far)
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2018-03-06T06:53:32Z jackdaniel: I wrote a small piece about rendering and CLIM: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/posts/Sheets-as-ideal-forms.html
2018-03-06T06:54:14Z jackdaniel: (ignited by work on the terminal backend)
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2018-03-06T07:48:00Z flip214: Shinmera: your animated gif on article 364 has "Color<br>"
2018-03-06T07:48:12Z flip214: and "Depth<br>"
2018-03-06T07:48:14Z flip214: JFI
2018-03-06T07:48:19Z Shinmera: I know
2018-03-06T07:48:24Z flip214: oh, okay.
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2018-03-06T07:48:39Z Shinmera: imagemagick is dumb about SVG for some reason
2018-03-06T07:48:40Z flip214: HR is bugging me because of ELS registration...
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2018-03-06T07:49:19Z Shinmera: Didier and I had a few problems yesterday and only got them all worked out by evening.
2018-03-06T07:49:27Z Shinmera: So hopefully he'll get things up today.
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2018-03-06T07:51:50Z flip214: ah, cool! thanks for the notice
2018-03-06T07:52:07Z flip214: although, right now it looks more bleak than ever ;)
2018-03-06T07:52:15Z Shinmera: One problem was his email hoster, so maybe that's related to the temp page being up, but I don't know.
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2018-03-06T10:19:58Z p_l: anyone knows of somewhat complete SMTP implementation in Lisp? Specifically server-side...
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2018-03-06T10:26:36Z Shinmera: Portacle 1.1 release: https://github.com/portacle/portacle/releases/tag/1.1
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2018-03-06T10:55:06Z knobo1: Can I check how much memory a collection of objects take up?
2018-03-06T10:57:23Z flip214: knobo1: implementation-dependent.
2018-03-06T10:57:31Z flip214: knobo1: for SBCL eg. sb-ext:object-size IIRC
2018-03-06T10:59:09Z schweers: flip214: sb-ext:object-size doesn’t exist :/
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2018-03-06T11:05:25Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus
2018-03-06T11:05:43Z beach: knobo1: How accurate do you need for it to be?
2018-03-06T11:06:13Z beach: knobo1: Or, more generally, what is the reason for your question?
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2018-03-06T11:11:29Z knobo1: I'm going to aproximate required memory usage for my application.
2018-03-06T11:12:48Z beach: knobo1: For each standard object, the number of slots plus a few words overhead.  For an array, the size times the element size.  For a CONS cell, 2 words.  For a symbol maybe 6 words or so.
2018-03-06T11:13:37Z Shinmera: knobo1: Run the application and just use ROOM to see how much memory it uses total?
2018-03-06T11:15:02Z Shinmera: GC is going to falsify any kind of precise memory estimation you might want to make anyway. It could keep garbage around for a long time, or freak out during GC even if potentially there's enough garbage around to recover.
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2018-03-06T11:19:46Z knobo1: (sb-introspect::object-size (make-hash-table)) => 144
2018-03-06T11:20:38Z schweers: huh.  doesn’t exist on my sbcl.  Is your sbcl version very new or very old?
2018-03-06T11:21:44Z knobo1: 1.4.4 has it, 1.4.2 does not.
2018-03-06T11:22:27Z schweers: uh.  I just realized I have a fairly old sbcl installation myself.  so nevermind my question ;)
2018-03-06T11:27:12Z knobo1: When I inspect the hash table it reports Size: 128, object-size say 144
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2018-03-06T11:29:17Z beach: knobo1: That's a small difference.  Probably some header or other data that is not counted in the first number.
2018-03-06T11:29:39Z beach: knobo1: Because of how the heaps are managed, you will never be able to get that kind of accuracy anyway.
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2018-03-06T11:31:47Z shka: but isn't that hash table size, not actually byte size?
2018-03-06T11:31:56Z shka: i always thought so!
2018-03-06T11:33:24Z beach: shka: What is the definition of "hash table size"?  The number of buckets?  The number of elements?  The number of buckets plus the data structure to store the elements in a bucket?  Something else?
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2018-03-06T11:41:16Z shka: beach: i don't know because standard does not explains that, http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_hash_4.htm but i would assume number of buckets
2018-03-06T11:41:29Z shka: because that seems to make th most sense
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2018-03-06T13:23:24Z loginoob: Is it ok to ask if someone here could become my mentor
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2018-03-06T13:33:37Z thodg: what seems to be the right way of using CFFI enums ?
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2018-03-06T13:34:36Z thodg: can't get it right from the docs
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2018-03-06T13:37:59Z Shinmera: thodg: What do you mean by "the right way"?
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2018-03-06T13:40:55Z Shinmera: enum foo { A, B, C } <=> (cffi:defcenum foo :a :b :c), and for functions that take or return an enum, just specify the type foo
2018-03-06T13:41:10Z thodg: i find having ctype and constants more useful
2018-03-06T13:41:16Z thodg: i mean compatible
2018-03-06T13:41:32Z thodg: i want same size as c library
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2018-03-06T13:41:45Z Shinmera: ?
2018-03-06T13:41:48Z thodg: not a new enum definition
2018-03-06T13:42:04Z thodg: but compatibility with .h enum
2018-03-06T13:42:27Z Shinmera: I have no idea what you're going on about.
2018-03-06T13:42:48Z thodg: i want a cffi wrapper for a C lib with same enum type sizes
2018-03-06T13:43:08Z Shinmera: enums are typically ints, which is what cffi:defcenum will declare the type as.
2018-03-06T13:43:27Z thodg: i feel safer with ctype than with enum which does not seem to take into account the existing definition
2018-03-06T13:43:36Z Shinmera: What "existing definition"?
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2018-03-06T13:43:45Z thodg: I thought so, but they can be bytes to
2018-03-06T13:43:46Z Shinmera: There is no existing definition. Enums are not emitted into the shared library.
2018-03-06T13:43:59Z thodg: so it's abi-dependant ?
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2018-03-06T13:44:47Z Shinmera: You can adjust the base type of the enum with (defcenum (foo :base-type :whatever) ..)
2018-03-06T13:45:13Z thodg: the c enum size is compiler dependant, it need to be grovelled
2018-03-06T13:45:37Z thodg: and i dont see cffi grovel the enum size
2018-03-06T13:45:45Z thodg: with cenum
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2018-03-06T13:52:28Z loginoob: please someone be my mentor
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2018-03-06T13:54:08Z Xach: loginoob: what's up?
2018-03-06T13:54:22Z beach: loginoob: Why not.  What do you expect from one?
2018-03-06T13:56:31Z loginoob: I am expecting guidance as in what languages to learn and correct path of learning. I sometime have stupid questions like is learning javascript hindering my programing abilities, so i can ask these questions or better not to have these kinds of questions. Do i make sense?
2018-03-06T13:57:04Z beach: loginoob: I am afraid that's too general for #lisp.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2018-03-06T13:57:13Z loginoob: oh
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2018-03-06T13:57:44Z loginoob: ok no problem
2018-03-06T13:57:55Z jmercouris: loginoob: feel free to PM me with any questions you have, I am not an "expert" lisp developer, but I am a professional developer
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2018-03-06T13:58:11Z loginoob: jmercouris: Ok, thank you sir
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2018-03-06T14:06:19Z jdz: I'll use a this quiet moment to ask a question: I bet somebody has travelled to Japan, I guess one would get appropriate amount of Yen along?  Another option would be to bring
2018-03-06T14:06:43Z jdz: € along, but then one would have to know an exchange that's not charging two skins.
2018-03-06T14:07:08Z beach: jdz: These days I just bring my card(s).
2018-03-06T14:07:08Z jdz: Also, have not seen any Japanese folk here, would be nice to meet up...
2018-03-06T14:07:27Z beach: jdz: Not been to Japan.  Just meant in general.
2018-03-06T14:07:33Z jdz: beach: somehow I have an impression that they're not very keen on cards over there.
2018-03-06T14:07:37Z Bike: They seem to have their own community.
2018-03-06T14:07:38Z jdz: Oh, right.
2018-03-06T14:07:43Z Bike: Japanese lisp i mean.
2018-03-06T14:08:06Z beach: We have a steady ELS visitor from Japan.  Can't remember his name right now though.
2018-03-06T14:08:18Z jdz: beach: I know him, met him in Paris.
2018-03-06T14:08:23Z beach: OK.
2018-03-06T14:08:37Z jdz: The author of roswell, right?
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2018-03-06T14:09:22Z jdz: I guess I'll use twitter for this.
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2018-03-06T14:09:35Z beach: I don't know about the author of roswell, sorry.
2018-03-06T14:10:34Z jdz: beach: no worries, thanks for the input.
2018-03-06T14:12:23Z beach: jdz: Maybe you are thinking of Fukamachi.  That is not who I am referring to.
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2018-03-06T14:13:37Z beach: Ah, sorry.  Sano Masatoshi.  That might be him.
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2018-03-06T14:19:34Z flip214: on SBCL, a call to (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-HOST-BY-NAME x) with x being (VECTOR CHARACTER 20) gives an error:  #<SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE expected-type: (OR NULL (ALIEN (* CHAR)) SIMPLE-BASE-STRING SIMPLE-STRING)
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2018-03-06T14:23:21Z Shinmera: jdz: I'll be in Japan around September, though I expect that'll be too far off for you to have a little lisp meet?
2018-03-06T14:23:55Z jdz: Shinmera: yeah, I'm going next Monday :)
2018-03-06T14:23:58Z Shinmera: In other news, Trial is back up on its feet and I can play around with live GL coding again, woo woo. https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVeE5nPT0=
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2018-03-06T14:27:18Z flip214: can somebody tell me in short, easy words the effective difference between SIMPLE-STRING and (VECTOR CHARACTER)? Apart from being "different" types, that is.
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2018-03-06T14:27:42Z Bike: a (vector character) could be non-simple, for example being displaced or having a fill pointer
2018-03-06T14:27:50Z Bike: on sbcl simple arrays do not have such things
2018-03-06T14:28:16Z Shinmera: also they're not adjustable
2018-03-06T14:28:22Z Shinmera: which usually saves an indirection
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2018-03-06T14:29:05Z flip214: hmmm, I guess that's the reason -- the VECTOR might be displaced to the original file data
2018-03-06T14:29:08Z flip214: thanks
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2018-03-06T14:33:03Z flip214: so, perhaps SBCLs check-type should be changed?
2018-03-06T14:33:13Z flip214: _this_ invocation of check-type, that is
2018-03-06T14:34:06Z Bike: Why?
2018-03-06T14:34:44Z Bike: Simple arrays and displaced arrays are totally different sorts of objects on SBCL. The underlying code to access them is distinct. So code can be written that works on only simple arrays.
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2018-03-06T14:44:45Z flip214: Bike: but does this distinction make _any_ sense for (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-HOST-BY-NAME x)?
2018-03-06T14:45:03Z flip214: I guess that's fairly seldom performance-critical.
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2018-03-06T14:45:46Z Bike: Beats me. But it wouldn't be a change to check-type or how it's invoked, it would be a change to get-host-by-name.
2018-03-06T14:45:48Z flip214: well, what I'm trying to say is that some CHECK-TYPEs should include other possible STRING-related types.
2018-03-06T14:46:06Z Bike: Since it's an OS interface it might pass the string as bytes.
2018-03-06T14:46:09Z flip214: Bike: yeah, that's what I wanted to say with "_this_ invocation" of check-type
2018-03-06T14:46:22Z Shinmera: The suggestion should be more that the function should automatically coerce to simple-string.
2018-03-06T14:46:32Z Bike: Yeah.
2018-03-06T14:46:41Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure the implementors didn't specify simple-string just for fun.
2018-03-06T14:46:45Z Bike: And I mean, maybe. I really don't know.
2018-03-06T14:47:39Z Bike: let's see, specifically g-h-b-n calls sockint::gethostbyname, which is ffi.
2018-03-06T14:48:10Z Shinmera: simple-strings have a nice property in that they can be shared directly with C in a lexical context by pinning.
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2018-03-06T14:55:34Z scymtym: coercing automatically at the high-level interface instead of forcing the user to do it sounds good to me
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2018-03-06T15:05:16Z comborico1611: Can't figure out what's wrong.
2018-03-06T15:05:25Z comborico1611: (defun rock-paper (a b)
2018-03-06T15:05:26Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'rock)
2018-03-06T15:05:28Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'rock))
2018-03-06T15:05:29Z comborico1611:                'tie)
2018-03-06T15:05:31Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'paper)
2018-03-06T15:05:32Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'paper))
2018-03-06T15:05:34Z comborico1611:                'tie)
2018-03-06T15:05:35Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'scissors)
2018-03-06T15:05:37Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'scissors))
2018-03-06T15:05:38Z comborico1611:                'tie)
2018-03-06T15:05:40Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'rock)
2018-03-06T15:05:41Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'paper))
2018-03-06T15:05:43Z comborico1611:                (eval '('paper 'beats 'rock)))
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2018-03-06T15:05:44Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'rock)
2018-03-06T15:05:46Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'scissors))
2018-03-06T15:05:47Z comborico1611:                '(rock beats scissors))
2018-03-06T15:05:49Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'paper)
2018-03-06T15:05:50Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'rock))
2018-03-06T15:05:52Z comborico1611:                '(paper beats rock))
2018-03-06T15:05:53Z comborico1611:            (if (and (equal a 'paper)
2018-03-06T15:05:55Z comborico1611:                     (equal b 'scissors))
2018-03-06T15:05:56Z comborico1611:                '(scissors beats paper)))
2018-03-06T15:05:58Z comborico1611: If I redo a small section of such as
2018-03-06T15:06:06Z Bike: paste! pastebin!
2018-03-06T15:06:12Z Bike: don't dump twenty lines in the channel
2018-03-06T15:06:22Z comborico1611: Oh, okay.
2018-03-06T15:06:30Z comborico1611: Sorry.
2018-03-06T15:06:43Z Bike: and don't use eval. that's probably related to the problem.
2018-03-06T15:07:17Z comborico1611: Yeah, that was just a test.  Trying to learn how to print a string of symbols without being contained in braces.
2018-03-06T15:07:19Z dlowe: comborico1611: in the body of the defun, the function returns the last expression
2018-03-06T15:07:30Z dlowe: so only the last if will return anything.
2018-03-06T15:07:31Z comborico1611: I see.
2018-03-06T15:07:44Z comborico1611: Thanks!
2018-03-06T15:07:45Z dlowe: clhs cond
2018-03-06T15:07:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2018-03-06T15:07:51Z dlowe: comborico1611: follow that link
2018-03-06T15:08:08Z comborico1611: Yeah, I just forgot the nature.
2018-03-06T15:10:29Z dlowe: you should still follow it, because it will show you a better way than lots of ifs
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2018-03-06T15:12:30Z comborico1611: Yeah, I just looked up the answer in teh book.  I see.  I must also be half asleep, because I thought I posted this in the #clnoobs
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2018-03-06T15:41:34Z Shinmera: ELS registrations are open! https://twitter.com/elsconf/status/971041480092602372
2018-03-06T15:41:44Z beach: YAY!
2018-03-06T15:43:15Z Shinmera: If there's any problems, let me know.
2018-03-06T15:46:54Z easye: Sorry if I missed it, but <http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/> is down and not coming back?
2018-03-06T15:47:14Z Shinmera: It is coming back of course, but I suspect there's hoster trouble
2018-03-06T15:47:17Z Shinmera: hence the temp site.
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2018-03-06T18:57:53Z pjb:  comborico1611: have a look at: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/rpsls/index.html
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2018-03-06T19:38:50Z comborico1611: pjb: You wrote that rock paper scissors game?
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2018-03-06T19:50:07Z pjb: comborico1611: yes, I did.
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2018-03-06T20:03:40Z fafff: hi
2018-03-06T20:03:47Z fafff: I want to write a macro
2018-03-06T20:03:51Z fafff: I have (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) '(1 2 3) '(1 1 1))
2018-03-06T20:04:13Z fafff: and I want (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1))  , where k1 is my macro
2018-03-06T20:04:24Z fafff: how can I do that?
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2018-03-06T20:10:40Z Bike: you mean k1 expands into two lists?
2018-03-06T20:13:18Z fafff: yes
2018-03-06T20:13:56Z Bike: you can't do that
2018-03-06T20:14:10Z Bike: why do you want to do that, and why do you want to do it with a macro? Could you provide context?
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2018-03-06T20:17:08Z fafff: I have to do some operations on sets of lists
2018-03-06T20:17:12Z fafff: there are more lists
2018-03-06T20:17:22Z fafff: and I want to write this faster
2018-03-06T20:18:35Z fafff: in C for example I could do stuff like like this, replacing a keyword with blocks of code
2018-03-06T20:19:19Z Bike: that's because C macros are textual. Lisp macros are more involved in the actual syntax.
2018-03-06T20:19:50Z Bike: You can put a macro form where you'd put any other expression, but a macro form ccan't be multiple expressions.
2018-03-06T20:20:22Z Bike: It's likely there's a way to avoid repetition like you want, but it's hard to say how with so little information.
2018-03-06T20:20:56Z k-hos: you can have a macro result in multiple expressions
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2018-03-06T20:22:36Z fafff: k-hos: how?
2018-03-06T20:22:42Z Bike_: if you try to explain progn to me i'm going to be mad
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2018-03-06T20:26:07Z __rumbler31: I wouldn't explain progn to you.. but thats what you'd use
2018-03-06T20:26:15Z Bike_: no!
2018-03-06T20:26:20Z Bike_: look! at the context! in which the question was asked!
2018-03-06T20:26:24Z Bike_: does progn make any damned sense there?
2018-03-06T20:27:10Z __rumbler31: to be fair, I don't fully understand what he's trying to do, but I should have qualified, if you need a macro to return multiple forms, you use progn
2018-03-06T20:27:16Z Bike_: ahdfshn
2018-03-06T20:27:27Z Bike_: they don't want multiple side effects
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2018-03-06T20:27:33Z Bike_: they want a macro that expands into multiple arguments to map
2018-03-06T20:27:41Z Bike_: this is nothing something that macros do
2018-03-06T20:27:54Z Bike_: you could use a function that returns multiple values, or a macro replacing map, or any number of things
2018-03-06T20:28:14Z Bike_: which is why i asked what they're doing more specifically so i could maybe pick which direction seemed best
2018-03-06T20:28:21Z __rumbler31: ok, i'm speaking in general, and not at all about the op's problem
2018-03-06T20:28:24Z Bike_: why
2018-03-06T20:28:36Z stylewarning: "Man shouts at the clouds"
2018-03-06T20:29:22Z __rumbler31: nevermind
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2018-03-06T20:30:23Z __rumbler31: I was confused about the context of the discussion at hand, so "at the time I was speaking about what I thought was a more general discussion"
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2018-03-06T20:52:36Z pjb: fafff: you can write (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)) on the condition of wrapping it into a normal (operator argument) form.
2018-03-06T20:52:49Z pjb: fafff: (with-k1 (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)))
2018-03-06T20:53:23Z pjb: then you write the with-k1 macro, to analyse the sexp (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1)) and replace it with   (map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) l1 l2)
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2018-03-06T20:53:42Z pjb: but k1 won't be a macro. It will be something that the with-k1 macro will process.
2018-03-06T20:54:42Z pjb: fafff: now, if you have a list of list, for example returned by a function f1, you can write (apply (function map) 'list (function +) (f1))
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2018-03-06T21:01:16Z fafff: pjb: thx
2018-03-06T21:01:19Z fafff: it makes sense
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2018-03-06T21:04:43Z pjb: fafff: notice SUBST et al.
2018-03-06T21:04:46Z pjb: clhs subst
2018-03-06T21:04:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_substc.htm
2018-03-06T21:05:47Z pjb: But it may be a little violent. You may want to use a code walker to interpret (k1) correctly: (with-k1 (list (k1) (labels ((k1 () 'foo)) (k1)) (k1)))  only the first and last (k1) must be substituted, the (k1) in the middle refers to the function k1 defined by labels.
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2018-03-06T21:47:27Z stylewarning: "you may want to use a code walker" ;; people always suggest this, but is there actually a usable code walker out therE?
2018-03-06T21:48:12Z Shinmera: Not a portable one as far as I know because that's hard
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2018-03-06T21:57:29Z attila_lendvai: hu.dwim.walker is ours, and it was used in non-trivial applications (uses contextl for fine grained customability)
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2018-03-06T22:01:27Z emaczen: How do you define a pointer type with CFFI? With the C code being: type *name;
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2018-03-06T22:04:42Z phoe: emaczen: you don't.
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2018-03-06T22:05:01Z phoe: pointers in CFFI do not have a type.
2018-03-06T22:05:12Z phoe: you specify the type only when you dereference a pointer.
2018-03-06T22:05:26Z Shinmera: You can say (:pointer type), but it's equivalent to :pointer as it doesn't do anything with it.
2018-03-06T22:05:38Z Shinmera: pointers are just pointers after all
2018-03-06T22:05:44Z pjb: stylewarning: AFAIK, the only implementation that has an implementation specific special operator is sbcl.  This is the only #+ you need in a code walker.
2018-03-06T22:06:10Z phoe: pjb: what is that operator?
2018-03-06T22:06:16Z pjb: Now, of course, a good portable code walker would have to provide its own CL macros…
2018-03-06T22:07:53Z pjb: Ah, there's also: (ccl:nfunction)  and in clisp, cl:function is used with an extension (a second parameter).
2018-03-06T22:08:13Z pjb: But as I said, it's no problem if the code walker provides its own set of standard CL macros.
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2018-03-06T22:10:40Z pjb: Implementation specific special operators (without a corresponding macro) would be particularly problematic if used in implementation specific macros (in extension packages).
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2018-03-06T22:51:05Z emaczen: phoe: when a type is declared in C isn't it also allocated?
2018-03-06T22:53:04Z Shinmera: A pointer is a pointer and has one size, no matter which type it points to.
2018-03-06T22:57:22Z emaczen: Shinmera: I'm having trouble arefing a foreign pointer/array the type of the array is an opaque type just defined like: struct name;
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2018-03-06T23:04:22Z axg`: maybe you can define it as an alias to *void? types aren't "allocated" when defined beyond as data within cffi/the c compiler
2018-03-06T23:06:28Z emaczen: Or, maybe my issue is setting this pointer...
2018-03-06T23:07:52Z emaczen: the C code initializes the pointer like: type **name; and then passes it in the function call via func(&name)
2018-03-06T23:11:19Z Bicyclidine: you have no addressof in lisp. if you want to pass a pointer you have to allocate a pointer
2018-03-06T23:11:25Z Bicyclidine: in other words, probs add a * to the type
2018-03-06T23:11:44Z Bicyclidine: cffi doesn't really care about the type beyond knowing that it's a pointer, though
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2018-03-07T00:07:53Z pjb: Shinmera: I wouldn't be so categoric: pointers can have different sizes.  eg. in MS-DOS.  But also because you may have pointers to different type of data requiring more or less bits.
2018-03-07T00:08:35Z Bicyclidine: cffi doesn't work on such systems, as far as i understand
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2018-03-07T03:24:18Z Xach: Hmm
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2018-03-07T03:32:53Z loke: hmm?
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2018-03-07T03:38:42Z Xach: Hmm
2018-03-07T03:38:46Z jasom: pjb: Bike, faff appears to be gone now, but what about this, which doesn't appear to have been suggested: (apply map 'list (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (k1))
2018-03-07T03:38:53Z Xach: I am excited to go to ELS.
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2018-03-07T03:48:31Z emaczen: https://pastebin.com/PKJz7FLH -- I am having trouble converting this C code to lisp CFFI code
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2018-03-07T03:49:26Z emaczen: I've written a short fully working program that uses CFFI and an external C library without any problems before, but the code was of a different style and didn't pass pointers to be modified like this code does
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2018-03-07T03:51:15Z Xach: that is not C code?
2018-03-07T03:51:28Z Xach: but maybe that doesn't matter much
2018-03-07T03:51:46Z emaczen: Xach: I pasted C code and then CFFI underneath
2018-03-07T03:51:52Z Bike: he means that it's C++
2018-03-07T03:52:08Z emaczen: They use cout but whatever
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2018-03-07T03:53:33Z emaczen: Sorry
2018-03-07T03:53:36Z emaczen: I pasted the wrong C code
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2018-03-07T03:54:55Z emaczen: Let me make another paste
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2018-03-07T03:57:06Z |3b|: https://github.com/3b/3b-libusb1/blob/master/bindings.lisp is how i would have done it ~2.5 years ago :)
2018-03-07T03:58:07Z axg: in the C++ code, you are passing the address of your ctx pointer to init. in the lisp version, it looks like you are passing null
2018-03-07T03:58:53Z |3b|: (though possibly for older version of libusb, not sure how much/if it has changed since then)
2018-03-07T03:59:54Z emaczen: axg: How do I pass the address?
2018-03-07T04:01:30Z |3b|: need to allocate a pointer, same as with device, then just pass that
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2018-03-07T04:02:57Z emaczen: https://pastebin.com/D4N6yEhX -- here is the correct C code
2018-03-07T04:03:08Z emaczen: I also put an explanation right before my lisp code.
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2018-03-07T04:04:26Z emaczen: |3b|: Now I get an "Unhandled memory fault" error
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2018-03-07T04:06:29Z |3b|: you might need to read the pointer from that pointer after calling init to get something you can pass to other functions
2018-03-07T04:06:37Z |3b| is guessing from reading my old code
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2018-03-07T04:07:05Z emaczen: |3d|: I don't understand what you mean by "read the pointer"
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2018-03-07T04:07:26Z |3b|: (cffi:mem-ref context :pointer)
2018-03-07T04:07:31Z pjb: jasom: I proposed: (apply (function map) 'list (function +) (f1))  <-- F1, an operator returning a list of lists.  The point of k1 is that it is not possible for a macro to return  multiple forms.  A macro can only return one form.  This form could compute a list of list, so (apply (function map) 'list (function +) (k1)) would be possible.  But there would be no point in using a macro, since a function would work as well.
2018-03-07T04:07:49Z |3b|: https://github.com/3b/3b-libusb1/blob/master/wrappers.lisp#L15
2018-03-07T04:08:56Z emaczen: |3b|: Nope, I still get the same error
2018-03-07T04:09:20Z |3b|: code? and can you tell where the error is in debugger?
2018-03-07T04:09:38Z emaczen: libusb-get-device-list
2018-03-07T04:10:13Z emaczen: All I changed was adding (cffi:mem-ref context :pointer) right after (libusb-init context)
2018-03-07T04:10:35Z |3b|: right, you need to store that and pass it to libusb-get-device-list
2018-03-07T04:11:08Z |3b|: (or put that as the argument to libusb-get-device-list in place of context)
2018-03-07T04:11:22Z |3b|: mem-ref has no side effects (assuming it doesn't segfault)
2018-03-07T04:11:23Z emaczen: Why exactly do we have to do this?
2018-03-07T04:11:50Z |3b|: because you can't allocate C variables on the lisp stack
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2018-03-07T04:12:09Z emaczen: Is that what my let form is assuming?
2018-03-07T04:12:34Z |3b|: (or something like that)
2018-03-07T04:13:37Z emaczen: Okay now, it isn't giving me an unhandled memory error BUT when I (cffi:mem-ref devices :pointer 5) it is the null pointer
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2018-03-07T04:13:46Z |3b|: you pass &ctx to libusb_init, but you pass ctx to libusb_get_device_list
2018-03-07T04:13:48Z emaczen: I have 6 devices
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2018-03-07T04:14:22Z jasom: emaczen: libusb_init takes a pointer-pointer but get device list takes a pointer.
2018-03-07T04:14:54Z emaczen: how do I do this in lisp?
2018-03-07T04:15:14Z emaczen: just mem-ref?
2018-03-07T04:15:34Z |3b| can't explain it in IRc better than https://github.com/3b/3b-libusb1/blob/master/wrappers.lisp#L15 :p
2018-03-07T04:15:53Z |3b|: %3b-libusb1:context is just a cffi typedef for pointer
2018-03-07T04:16:36Z |3b|: that function returns what would be in the ctx variable in the C code
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2018-03-07T04:16:53Z |3b|: which can be passed directly to libusb_get_device_list
2018-03-07T04:17:28Z emaczen: Oh Okay, yes I understand what jasom is saying now
2018-03-07T04:17:34Z emaczen: |3b| That is what you had me do
2018-03-07T04:17:44Z |3b|: but yeah, allocate a pointer variable then mem-ref
2018-03-07T04:17:47Z jasom: emaczen: yes; the lisp code you would would  roughly correspond to the c code: context = malloc(sizeof(void **)); libusb_init(context); libusb_get_device_list(*context);
2018-03-07T04:18:30Z |3b|: thanks, that's what i was failing to find words for :) been too long since i used C directly
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2018-03-07T04:18:33Z jasom: because you need to explicitly allocate in lisp anything you are going to pass to C (rather than implicitly allocate on the stack like your C code)
2018-03-07T04:19:04Z jasom: anyway I gotta go
2018-03-07T04:19:48Z emaczen: Now my problem is that libusb-get-device-list returns 6 (so I have 6 usb devices) which means I should be able to (cffi:mem-ref devices :pointer 5)
2018-03-07T04:20:17Z emaczen: But (cffi:null-pointer-p (cffi:mem-ref devices :pointer 4)) evaluates to T
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2018-03-07T04:24:44Z |3b|: might need another mem-ref on devices, since it is & in the c dode
2018-03-07T04:25:05Z |3b|: and you probably want mem-aref there, where the offset is in pointers rather than bytes
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2018-03-07T04:26:10Z |3b|: https://github.com/3b/3b-libusb1/blob/master/wrappers.lisp#L54-L59
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2018-03-07T04:28:33Z emaczen: |3b|: I seem to be getting the right results for mem-aref now
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2018-03-07T04:29:13Z emaczen: What should I be expecting in the print statements? I have no idea what are reasonable values for the number of configurations, device class, vendor id, or product id
2018-03-07T04:29:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-07T04:29:30Z emaczen: should the same device always print the same values for those 4 fields?
2018-03-07T04:29:41Z |3b|: if you are on linux or similar, lsusb might give you something to compare to
2018-03-07T04:30:00Z |3b|: yeah, sounds like most of those should be fairly constant
2018-03-07T04:30:07Z |3b|: (some devices do strange things though)
2018-03-07T04:30:13Z emaczen: I'm on OSX...
2018-03-07T04:31:39Z |3b|: ah, no idea there
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2018-03-07T04:36:14Z beach: So again, we are on freenode (dedicated to free software) in the #lisp channel (dedicated to Common Lisp), but we are talking about using other languages on commercial operating systems.  Go figure.
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2018-03-07T04:36:48Z emaczen: beach: a question outgrown with a CFFI translation
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2018-03-07T04:39:08Z |3b|: beach: at least the foreign library in question doesn't require the commercial operating systems :)
2018-03-07T04:39:25Z beach: |3b|: that's an improvement.
2018-03-07T04:40:01Z |3b|: (OS only came up in context of external tool to check the lisp results against)(
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2018-03-07T04:45:28Z emaczen: |3b|: Did you see anything wrong with my print-dev function?
2018-03-07T04:47:19Z |3b|: how did you get the offsets for the struct def?
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2018-03-07T04:49:12Z |3b| generally considers falling cffi:foreign-alloc directly to be "something wrong" without good reason, but shouldn't affect output of that
2018-03-07T04:49:17Z |3b|: *calling
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2018-03-07T04:49:53Z emaczen: |3b| I looked at the header file and counted the bytes
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2018-03-07T04:51:25Z loke: emaczen: That'[s not a reliable thing to do.
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2018-03-07T04:51:44Z emaczen: loke: It will work for my computer right?
2018-03-07T04:51:55Z |3b|: assuming those are correct, looks reasonable, but i'd probably try to verify the offsets if possible (print results of offsetof from the c code for example)
2018-03-07T04:52:05Z loke: emaczen: Perhaps. Assuming you count correctly (which can be tricky).
2018-03-07T04:52:15Z |3b|: works if you know your ABI well enough to get the alignment etc right when counting bytes :)
2018-03-07T04:52:19Z loke: I'd recommend using cffi-grovel
2018-03-07T04:52:49Z |3b| would just put all the fields in and let cffi figure it out for normal libraries
2018-03-07T04:53:04Z emaczen: |3b| I'll try that
2018-03-07T04:53:22Z emaczen: |3b|: I'm still not getting consistent results with the printing of those 4 fields
2018-03-07T04:54:02Z |3b|: ah, maybe another missing pointer deref if the values are changing
2018-03-07T04:54:44Z |3b|: hmm, maybe not
2018-03-07T04:55:36Z emaczen: I'm returning (cffi:mem-aref devices :pointer) from init
2018-03-07T04:55:54Z |3b|: ah, it is &desc, so yeah, probably need another mem-aref for that
2018-03-07T04:55:58Z emaczen: and then I'm calling (print-dev (cffi:mem-aref devices :pointer 2)) or another index
2018-03-07T04:56:05Z |3b|: wait, not a pointer, ignore that
2018-03-07T04:56:12Z |3b| is looking at too many things at once
2018-03-07T04:56:33Z |3b|: what is current code?
2018-03-07T04:57:03Z emaczen: |3b|: print-dev has not changed -- shall I make another paste for clarity?
2018-03-07T04:57:08Z |3b|: yeah
2018-03-07T04:57:56Z |3b| is back to seeing no problems with print-dev though
2018-03-07T04:57:58Z emaczen: https://pastebin.com/rhsDFUd5
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2018-03-07T05:02:03Z |3b|: actually, those offsets in the struct look pretty suspicious to me
2018-03-07T05:02:40Z emaczen: uint8_t and uint16_t are 8 and 16 bytes right?
2018-03-07T05:02:48Z |3b| thinks those are bits
2018-03-07T05:03:07Z loke: Bits yes
2018-03-07T05:03:10Z loke: Aldo remember padding
2018-03-07T05:03:12Z loke: Also
2018-03-07T05:03:34Z emaczen: uint8 is 1 byte then?
2018-03-07T05:03:43Z |3b|: yeah
2018-03-07T05:03:46Z emaczen: lol
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2018-03-07T05:04:43Z |3b| thinks padding might not matter for that struct, since it has uint8 in multiples of 2 between the uint16, but multiplying offsets by 8 probably isn't good :)
2018-03-07T05:05:09Z |3b|: (at least in my version of it, which presumably matched the C version well enough for my code to run at some point)
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2018-03-07T05:07:08Z emaczen: Cool! it seems to display consistent results.
2018-03-07T05:07:20Z emaczen: Now I have to figure out what it means...
2018-03-07T05:08:03Z |3b|: what are you trying to do?
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2018-03-07T05:09:19Z emaczen: |3b|: Right now, I'm just trying to get started with programming with USB devices from CL
2018-03-07T05:09:28Z emaczen: It tried quickloading cl-libusb but it failed
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2018-03-07T05:11:31Z |3b|: yeah, i think cl-libusb is old libusb API
2018-03-07T05:12:03Z |3b|: might see if my lib still works... not very complete but at least might bet you a little bit further to start out
2018-03-07T05:12:19Z |3b|: worked enough to download files off of my camera at one point
2018-03-07T05:12:39Z emaczen: hah, I keep looking at it if I get stuck
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2018-03-07T05:16:25Z emaczen: |3b|: Thanks for the help, the hardest part is getting started... I should be able to figure out a lot from here with the pointers given
2018-03-07T05:16:32Z emaczen: pun intended :)
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2018-03-07T05:22:13Z sigjuice: would it be possible to do something like this to make a custom sbcl binary?  (defsystem "mysbcl/exe" :build-operation program-op :build-pathname "mysbcl" :entry-point "launch-sbcl-repl????" :depends-on (...))
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2018-03-07T05:35:44Z pillton: lisp-executable provides something like that.
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2018-03-07T05:36:34Z pillton: sigjuice: https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable/blob/master/lisp-executable-example.asd#L39
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2018-03-07T05:37:54Z sigjuice: pillton appreciate the pointer! I will check it out
2018-03-07T05:38:15Z |3b|: is the question just about what the entry point for the built-in repl is?
2018-03-07T05:42:14Z sigjuice: |3b| yes, sort of. and is it something I can use as an entrypoint in the asdf:defsystem I mentioned above.
2018-03-07T05:42:36Z sigjuice: sb-impl::top-level-init ?
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2018-03-07T05:44:33Z |3b|: yeah, looks like save-lisp-and-die defaults to sb-impl::toplevel-init
2018-03-07T05:44:44Z pillton: What is wrong with uiop:dump-image?
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2018-03-07T05:47:12Z pillton: sigjuice: Lisp-executable won't be of any use if you want that. I didn't read what you said properly.
2018-03-07T05:48:16Z sigjuice: pillton uiop:dump-image does exactly what I imagined
2018-03-07T05:50:51Z sigjuice: pillton thanks. I wasn't even sure what I was asking :p
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2018-03-07T05:58:12Z pillton: sigjuice: No worries. Sorry for not reading your original question correctly. Thanks to |3b|.
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2018-03-07T09:36:50Z schweers wonders if filenames like foo.tar.gz might have been a bad idea after all (considering how SBCL handles the type of a namesting/pathname)
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2018-03-07T09:38:02Z Shinmera: Not as bad as .so.0 etc
2018-03-07T09:38:22Z schweers: true
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2018-03-07T09:55:40Z thodg: i don't understand how cffi handles string constants
2018-03-07T09:55:50Z thodg: as preprocessor defines
2018-03-07T09:56:18Z thodg: (constant ...) in the groveller does not seem to grok them
2018-03-07T09:56:47Z pjb: schweers: for unix, it's not a bad idea.  But for common lisp logical pathnames, it's redhibitory, since #\. is not a conforming character for pathname names. cf. 19.3.1
2018-03-07T09:57:08Z pjb: schweers: therefore "foo.tar" can only be a physical pathname component.
2018-03-07T09:58:00Z schweers: Well, how were an implementation to know whether the dot separates the (stack of) type(s), or whether its just a funny name?
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2018-03-07T09:58:29Z pjb: schweers: it's implementation dependent.
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2018-03-07T09:59:13Z schweers: I know it is, but what I mean is: what might be the best behaviour?  guessing is not an option, and the filenames themselves don’t provide enough information
2018-03-07T09:59:48Z schweers: Although I am annoyed that SBCL does not like having a type like "tar.gz".
2018-03-07T10:00:02Z thodg: schweers: well the type really is gz
2018-03-07T10:00:16Z schweers: it kinda is both
2018-03-07T10:00:16Z thodg: you'll get to tar if you gunzip
2018-03-07T10:00:22Z schweers: i.e. a stack of types
2018-03-07T10:00:44Z thodg: like an apple is not an appleseed
2018-03-07T10:01:01Z schweers: true, but can be transformed into such
2018-03-07T10:01:44Z thodg: probably a certain number of times after a while it gets used
2018-03-07T10:02:13Z schweers: pjb: I just now realized you were talking about logical pathnames.  Are the rules for them relevant if I don’t use them (directly)?
2018-03-07T10:03:25Z schweers: I think I got my terminology confused a bit :/
2018-03-07T10:04:41Z Shinmera: schweers: The real problem is that the file name matters at all, rather than the type of file being encoded in the data/inode in a standard way.
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2018-03-07T10:05:13Z schweers: That is what I would have preferred (I guess), but filesystems are the way they now are, I guess :(
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2018-03-07T10:06:08Z pjb: schweers: of course, logical pathnames are not relevant when you don't use them directly.  When you talk about a physical pathname such as "foo.tar.gz", nothing matters, since it's entirely implementation dependent how it's interpreted.
2018-03-07T10:06:27Z pjb: schweers: yes, two implementations can choose to cut the name / type on different dots.
2018-03-07T10:07:02Z pjb: schweers: consider also: .foo.lisp  (dot-files) ;-)
2018-03-07T10:07:10Z schweers: okay, that’s what I thought.  Not entirely satisfactory, but I guess I’ll just have to live with that
2018-03-07T10:07:14Z schweers: hehe, true
2018-03-07T10:07:30Z schweers: or even just .bashrc
2018-03-07T10:08:04Z pjb: for abcl, ccl, clisp, ecl and sbcl on macosx, (pathname-type "foo.tar.gz") -> "gz"
2018-03-07T10:08:13Z schweers: interesting, sbcl puts ".bashrc" in the name, leaving type nil
2018-03-07T10:08:36Z pjb: yes, they all do that on unix.  It's the sane thing to do.
2018-03-07T10:08:52Z pjb: well, not ccl, for .bashrc
2018-03-07T10:09:10Z pjb: they all returns .foo.tar for (pathname-name ".foo.tar.gz")
2018-03-07T10:09:14Z schweers: it is what I also naively expected, but it does seem rather arbitrary
2018-03-07T10:09:22Z pjb: but ccl returns nil for (pathname-name ".bashrc")
2018-03-07T10:09:37Z schweers: so type is "bashrc"?
2018-03-07T10:09:41Z pjb: yes.
2018-03-07T10:10:22Z schweers: considering logical pathnames: are they used in the wild?  i.e. do you guys and gals use them?
2018-03-07T10:10:47Z pjb: I use them all the time in lisp sources.
2018-03-07T10:11:08Z schweers: I must admit that I don’t know anything about them, other than that I have read statements online (can’t remember where or by whom) that they are badly designed and one should avoid them
2018-03-07T10:11:11Z pjb: You could have the rule, that you should not have literal physical pathnames in lisp sources. Only literal logical pathnames are allowed.
2018-03-07T10:11:36Z pjb: On the other hand, at run-time, you would process mostly physical pathnames.
2018-03-07T10:12:15Z pjb: logical pathnames offers an indirection level allowing you to manipulate pathnames in an implementation independent way, thru the logical-pathname-translation mapping.
2018-03-07T10:12:44Z schweers: off the top of your head, do you have a nice example?
2018-03-07T10:12:52Z pjb: So you don't have to care where the files and directory your application uses are located; this will be decided by the user (thru load-logical-pathname-translations).
2018-03-07T10:13:11Z schweers: by filling in the users home directory?
2018-03-07T10:13:25Z schweers: oops, I misread your statement, nvm
2018-03-07T10:13:44Z pjb: see for example: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/patchwork/blob/master/loghosts.lisp and https://gitlab.com/patchwork/patchwork/blob/master/builder.lisp
2018-03-07T10:14:02Z schweers: I get 404 on both of those :/
2018-03-07T10:14:35Z pjb: oh oh!
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2018-03-07T10:16:25Z pjb: the project is marked Public…  Try again?
2018-03-07T10:16:39Z schweers: now they work, thanks
2018-03-07T10:16:50Z pjb: Thanks to you.
2018-03-07T10:17:07Z pjb: I will have to change one permission setting to all my projects … :-)
2018-03-07T10:20:50Z pjb: schweers: in this case, I define the logical hosts and their translations in loghosts.lisp; but it could be left to the user, using load-logical-pathname-translations.
2018-03-07T10:21:33Z pjb: schweers: when you install an application, your installation script could generate the logical pathname translation file to be used by load-logical-pathname-translations for the user, depending in the installation paths.
2018-03-07T10:22:25Z schweers: So one can define a logical path to the applications installation directory and have the user configure where that points to prior to building?
2018-03-07T10:22:26Z pjb: schweers: In this example, this allows the rest of the build scripts such as builder.lisp to use logical pathname literals independently of the locations of the various sources directories.
2018-03-07T10:22:35Z pjb: schweers: yes.
2018-03-07T10:22:36Z schweers: Or can this even be deferred until runtime
2018-03-07T10:23:04Z pjb: Well, installation is a run-time procedure, so you would rather defer it to runtime.
2018-03-07T10:23:13Z schweers: sweet!
2018-03-07T10:23:53Z pjb: Basically, if you save a physical pathname in a lisp image, you failed (because a different user may run the same executable lisp image, so hardwired pathnames may be wrong).
2018-03-07T10:24:24Z pjb: Since logical pathnames are translated at run-time, you can save them in your sources, your fasls, or your lisp images.
2018-03-07T10:24:45Z pjb: The only thing you have to remember is that you can only translate from logical to physical, never the other direction.
2018-03-07T10:25:04Z schweers: its settled, I must learn how to use these beasts :)  thanks a lot for the information!
2018-03-07T10:25:34Z pjb: So when you get a physical pathname at run-time (such as with DIRECTORY, or using an "open" dialog, or given by the user), you must keep it as physical pathname (you can still manipulate all the pathnames with pathname functions).
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2018-03-07T10:26:16Z pjb: The only difficulty there is that there's a lot of implementation and platform specific behavior allowed…  So it's delicate to use conformingly.
2018-03-07T10:26:30Z pjb: There are libraries to help, such as cl-fad or uiop.
2018-03-07T10:27:03Z schweers: I’ve seen lots of read time conditionals in your code ;)
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2018-03-07T10:29:34Z Shinmera: too bad logical pathnames don't deal well with case and other special characters, among other things.
2018-03-07T10:29:43Z Shinmera: and by don't deal well I mean, don't deal at all
2018-03-07T10:30:23Z pjb: They deal perfectly well: they don't allow them!  So it's perfectly portable!
2018-03-07T10:30:40Z pjb: Just use the logical-pathname-translation table to add them.
2018-03-07T10:30:43Z Shinmera: wow, I can only address a subset of all files on my system, great!
2018-03-07T10:31:06Z Shinmera: What a fantastic feature.
2018-03-07T10:31:24Z pjb: Nope. You can access them all!
2018-03-07T10:32:23Z pjb: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") '(("SUMMER.*" "/opt/my-app/été.*"))) (translate-logical-pathname #P"MY-APP:SUMMER.TXT") #| --> #P"/opt/my-app/été.TXT" |#
2018-03-07T10:32:49Z pjb: The point of logical pathnames is that you don't polute your sources with implementation and platform specific path literals.
2018-03-07T10:33:23Z pjb: All those implementation and platform specific physical pathnames, with those cases and special characters variants, are collected into a single place, the logical pathname translation table.
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2018-03-07T10:34:14Z pjb: That said, some implementations may have physical pathnames restrictions that make them unable to represent all the paths of a given platform.  Call that a bug.
2018-03-07T10:34:33Z schweers: do I understand correctly that logical pathnames are there to encode well-known-places which depend on the implementation, the OS, or in some other way on the environment?  i.e. obtaining the users home directory would be a valid use of logical pathnames?
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2018-03-07T10:36:07Z pjb: schweers: indeed, in some implementations, #"HOME:" is mapped to (user-homedir-pathname).
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2018-03-07T10:37:33Z schweers: so when reading user specific configs, a logical pathname might translate to ~/.config/ on unix and to … uh … /Users/$USERNAME/.AppData/ on windows?  (I don’t use windows much, so I might be wrong here, but I guess you see my point)
2018-03-07T10:37:53Z pjb: exactly.
2018-03-07T10:37:58Z schweers: cool
2018-03-07T10:37:58Z schweers:  
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2018-03-07T10:38:20Z pjb: on windows it's even more complex, since appdata and other user specific files are not necessarily in (user-homedir-pathname)…
2018-03-07T10:38:45Z schweers: really?  sounds bad
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2018-03-07T10:42:45Z jmercouris: there's not really a convention in Windows, especially because they support basically all legacy programs
2018-03-07T10:43:13Z jmercouris: it's a price they have to pay to have the most "software available"
2018-03-07T10:43:49Z schweers: If I recall correctly MS does have guidelines for these sort of things, but they don’t document it as loudly as they should, as is often the case
2018-03-07T10:44:18Z Shinmera: schweers: You don't put things into AppData, you put them in AppData\Local, AppData\Roaming, or AppData\LocalLow
2018-03-07T10:44:34Z schweers: for instance I think its quite bad that still so many programs put their data directly into the users home on unix
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2018-03-07T10:44:51Z jmercouris: yes, that is really annoying, but there is nothing motivating programs from not doing that
2018-03-07T10:45:08Z schweers: Shinmera: fair enough, as I said, I don’t really use windows ;)  Nevertheless, thanks for correcting me
2018-03-07T10:45:12Z jmercouris: if people really wanted to see a change, a distro would have to take a hard stance and somehow make that harder on their platform or something
2018-03-07T10:45:14Z Shinmera: XDG tried to standardise .config, .cache, and .local
2018-03-07T10:45:30Z jmercouris: XDG is a mild success at best, I have about half my programs using it
2018-03-07T10:45:36Z jmercouris: maybe it needs another 20 years :D
2018-03-07T10:45:38Z pjb: Obiously, you could define and use a XDG logical host…
2018-03-07T10:45:39Z schweers: I don’t think a distro can do much about this
2018-03-07T10:45:44Z Shinmera: 20 years of linux on the deskto!
2018-03-07T10:45:48Z Shinmera: *desktop
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2018-03-07T10:46:14Z schweers: dunno, I’ve been using it on my desktops for more than 10 years, so go figure ;P
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2018-03-07T10:46:45Z jmercouris: I am also 10+ years, but at some point Linux made me very bitter and pushed me to bsd...
2018-03-07T10:46:52Z schweers: pjb: yes, but that doesn’t cover the majority of software, which is, sadly, not written in lisp
2018-03-07T10:47:06Z schweers: jmercouris: still in the family
2018-03-07T10:51:21Z jmercouris: indeed :)
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2018-03-07T11:00:00Z schweers: pjb: what exactly am I supposed to pass to LOGICAL-PATHNAME-TRANSLATIONS?  I tried this, but it gave me an error, because the argument is of the wrong type: (logical-pathname-translations (pathname-host *default-pathname-defaults*))
2018-03-07T11:00:32Z pjb: a logical host.
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2018-03-07T11:01:00Z schweers: is there such a thing as a default host?
2018-03-07T11:01:19Z schweers: I’d like to know if there are any default translations in a given implementation
2018-03-07T11:01:20Z pjb: Nope.
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2018-03-07T11:01:31Z schweers: so all translations are user defined?
2018-03-07T11:01:39Z pjb: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") '(("SUMMER.*" "/opt/my-app/été.*")))    (translate-logical-pathname #P"MY-APP:SUMMER.TXT")
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2018-03-07T11:02:08Z pjb: Not necessarily. Some may be provided by the implementation. logical host names such as "SYSTEM" "SYS" "SOURCES" etc…
2018-03-07T11:03:29Z pjb: In general you would map logical hosts to a physical directory, using wild-inferior.
2018-03-07T11:03:35Z schweers: Ah, thanks
2018-03-07T11:03:45Z pjb:  (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") '(("**/*.*" "/opt/my-app/**/*.*")))
2018-03-07T11:03:57Z schweers: I’m off for lunch, so I’ll read on later.  Thanks again!
2018-03-07T11:04:13Z pjb: so you can access all the files that can be translated by the implementations default rules to map logical pathnames to physical pathnames.
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2018-03-07T11:08:28Z jmercouris: I'm trying to load my system in SBCL, and I am getting a strange error: https://gist.github.com/6d13c14b6005330a69b0b5622d2fd85b
2018-03-07T11:08:43Z jmercouris: named-readtables is not a piece of my software, and it load in CCL
2018-03-07T11:09:17Z pjb: jmercouris: :mailto is a new option for asdf systems. Perhaps write #+asdf3 :mailto #+asdf3 "foo@bar.baz"
2018-03-07T11:09:43Z pjb: Conversely, you could first load a recent version of asdf.
2018-03-07T11:10:00Z pjb: (instead of using the old one provided by the implementation).
2018-03-07T11:10:03Z jmercouris: how does one load a recent version of asdf? is it not built into the implementation?
2018-03-07T11:10:09Z jmercouris: can you quickload asdf?
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2018-03-07T11:12:09Z pjb: I download it from https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads  and then I use (load "asdf.lisp") in my common.lisp rc file. More precisely: (defun load-asdf3 () (unless (member :asdf3 *features*) (load (merge-pathnames #P"src/public/lisp/tools/asdf.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))))) (load-asdf3)
2018-03-07T11:12:28Z jmercouris: Ok, I see
2018-03-07T11:12:28Z pjb: basic lisp programming.
2018-03-07T11:12:42Z jmercouris: "basic lisp configuration", I wouldn't call that programming
2018-03-07T11:13:10Z jmercouris: seems I am using a very old version of sbcl, let me update it first, then I'll try updating asdf by itself if that doesn't suffice
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2018-03-07T11:20:11Z jmercouris: I just went from sbcl 1.1 to 1.4, made a bit of a difference :)
2018-03-07T11:20:26Z jmercouris: the binaries here are really out of date for darwin: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
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2018-03-07T11:31:45Z jmercouris: for future readers, I reccomend just installing from ports/brew
2018-03-07T11:32:30Z jmercouris: the only issue is that I can't jump to definition for built in functions/macros
2018-03-07T11:33:10Z jmercouris: somehow it makes an incorrect pathname
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2018-03-07T11:34:25Z jmercouris: so for example, jumping to definition on setf makes a path of: /opt/local/var/macports/build/_opt_bblocal_var_buildworker_ports_build_ports_lang_sbcl/sbcl/work/sbcl-1.4.4/src/code/
2018-03-07T11:34:34Z jmercouris: which is not a real path on my system
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2018-03-07T11:36:18Z pjb: jmercouris: install the sources and configure them.
2018-03-07T11:37:05Z pjb: jmercouris: https://hastebin.com/tecuxoyaqa.lisp
2018-03-07T11:37:14Z pjb: again, a mere matter of lisp programming!
2018-03-07T11:38:22Z jmercouris: when you say "install the sources", you don't mean build the source on my system, but rather download it, place it somewhere, and then this will resolve those paths properly with this function?
2018-03-07T11:38:33Z pjb: Yes.
2018-03-07T11:38:59Z pjb: If you place them in one of the directories scanned by this function. You can edit this function to include your own paths.
2018-03-07T11:39:12Z jmercouris: how will slime-edit-definition know to invoke this function?
2018-03-07T11:39:51Z pjb: implementation dependent.
2018-03-07T11:40:51Z jmercouris: here is the magic: (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "/usr/share/sbcl-source/")
2018-03-07T11:41:03Z jmercouris: so I need to set that up in my sbclrc
2018-03-07T11:41:43Z pjb: Yes.
2018-03-07T11:42:09Z pjb: But since you use your .sbclrc with various versions of sbcl and on different systems, you cannot hardwire the path!
2018-03-07T11:42:30Z jmercouris: well, I actually only have sbcl on my laptop, so I am okay for now :)
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2018-03-07T11:46:53Z jmercouris: I ended up placing it in /usr/local/source/sbcl to be consistent with the sbcl location
2018-03-07T11:47:06Z jmercouris: though perhaps it should have been /opt/local/source
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2018-03-07T11:47:17Z jmercouris: s/sbcl location/ccl location
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2018-03-07T13:02:11Z schweers: pjb: I have to bother you once more about logical pathnames.  can I have a logical pathname which refers to a file like foo.tar.gz or is this categorically impossible?
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2018-03-07T13:03:28Z pjb:  (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") '(("FOO-TAR.GZ" "/opt/my-app/archives/foo.tar.gz") ("**;*.*" "/opt/my-app/**/*.*")))  (translate-logical-pathname "MY-APP:FOO-TAR.GZ") #| --> #P"/opt/my-app/archives/foo.tar.gz" |#
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2018-03-07T13:07:33Z schweers: hm, but what if I want to put the .tar.gz into a directory which I obtain via logical paths?  I have a translation which gives me a directory where to store the file.  But now I need to store a filename with a double suffix in said dir.  i.e I have something like this: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "IMPORTER") '(("OUT-DIR;" "/home/schweers/data/"))) (translate-logical-pathname #P"importer:out-dir;foo.tar.gz") ; =>
2018-03-07T13:07:34Z schweers: #P"importer:out-dir;foo.tar.gz"
2018-03-07T13:08:17Z pjb: this is not conforming.
2018-03-07T13:08:50Z schweers: I thought so.  Any idea how to solve this problem?
2018-03-07T13:09:06Z pjb:  (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") `(("FOO-TAR.GZ" ,(merge-pathnames "foo.tar.gz" #P"IMPORTER:OUT-DIR;")) ("**;*.*" "/opt/my-app/**/*.*")))
2018-03-07T13:09:07Z schweers: can I have a second translation to expand into the double suffix and combine them somehow?
2018-03-07T13:09:26Z schweers: aha!
2018-03-07T13:09:35Z schweers: that might do it, thanks
2018-03-07T13:10:20Z pjb: notice that you can also use wildcards in the name.
2018-03-07T13:11:06Z schweers: I’ve not yet found a good description of how exactly wildcards work; I guess this is because they work for pathnames in general, not just for logical pathnames.  Is this correct?
2018-03-07T13:13:04Z pjb: but it doesn't seem to help in this case.
2018-03-07T13:13:16Z pjb: because the third * means version, so…
2018-03-07T13:14:50Z schweers: in the example you showed me last I can only have constants, right?
2018-03-07T13:14:57Z pjb: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "MY-APP") '(("**;*.TGZ" "/opt/my-app/**/*.tar.gz")))   (translate-logical-pathname #P"MY-APP:FOO.TGZ") #| --> #P"/opt/my-app/FOO.gz" |#
2018-03-07T13:15:17Z pjb: but notice that in this case, ccl doesn't downcase the name (other implementations would downcase it).
2018-03-07T13:15:51Z pjb: This means that: logical -> physical  is very strong: you cannot access foo.gz unless you make an explicit translation rule for it.
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2018-03-07T13:16:57Z schweers: let me try that
2018-03-07T13:16:58Z pjb: schweers: also, the rules about case are very clear: the case that should be used is the customary case for the file system where the component is stored.  On unix systems, a path can contain components each on a different kind of file system with a different customary case!
2018-03-07T13:17:17Z pjb: You can mount MS-Windows file systems on MacOS file systems on unix file systems in any order.
2018-03-07T13:17:52Z pjb: So you can have components of a single path stored on all kinds of file systems. and ;a;b;C;D  may have to be translated to A/b/C/d
2018-03-07T13:18:04Z pjb: but no implementation implement this!
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2018-03-07T13:21:51Z didi: I remember there is a "standard" on this: If I want to write a macro that iterates over a collection, I should write a macro called DOOBJECTS that expands to a call to a function called CALL-ON-OBJECTS, right? These are the names, aren't they?
2018-03-07T13:22:09Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: http://thrift.apache.org/docs/install/ these docs are not updated, do you know what the language specific requirements for a lisp install are?
2018-03-07T13:24:44Z jmercouris: nvm, I see this: https://github.com/apache/thrift/tree/master/lib/cl
2018-03-07T13:25:14Z pjb: didi: you don't have to do it, but it is a way to implement the macro.
2018-03-07T13:25:24Z didi: pjb: Cool.
2018-03-07T13:25:31Z pjb: didi: it relies on the compiler being able to inline the function to generate efficient code.
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2018-03-07T13:25:43Z didi likes to rely on the compiler
2018-03-07T13:26:07Z didi: pjb: Should I annotate the function CALL-ON-OBJECTS in any way?
2018-03-07T13:26:19Z pjb: Also, often you want to have such a function anyways.  (doobjects (o) (print o))   (call-with-objects (function print))
2018-03-07T13:26:30Z pjb: you may declare it inline.
2018-03-07T13:26:35Z didi: Thanks.
2018-03-07T13:27:19Z didi: pjb: Oh, you wrote `call-with-objects' instead of `call-on-objects'. Which name people use?
2018-03-07T13:27:38Z pjb: well, for a loop, perhaps iterate-on-objects would be a good name.
2018-03-07T13:27:50Z pjb: with-object / call-with-object
2018-03-07T13:28:06Z pjb: doobjects / iterate-on-objects
2018-03-07T13:28:21Z pjb: or doobject / mapobject
2018-03-07T13:28:31Z didi: Nice. Thank you.
2018-03-07T13:29:12Z ecraven: how does swank handle an error in another thread than the one communicating with slime?
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2018-03-07T13:52:39Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Thrift seems a rather heavy tool designed to run on servers, no?
2018-03-07T13:57:44Z jmercouris: I mean it generates all of these stubs and this heavy code, doesn't seem designed for standalone applications running on a user system, though I guess it would work just fine
2018-03-07T13:58:04Z jmercouris: the apache people have a different definition of "lightweight" than me it seems
2018-03-07T13:59:13Z jmercouris: I can see the huge value it provides, but I'm not sure I want to bring it in as a dependency
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2018-03-07T14:03:54Z fe[nl]ix: what's the difference between "servers" and standalone applications ?
2018-03-07T14:04:28Z jmercouris: There's not really a difference, but there is a diffrence in expectations of hardware, how often they'll turn on and off
2018-03-07T14:04:33Z jmercouris: the software installation process etc
2018-03-07T14:05:10Z jmercouris: for example, webservers aren't designed to be stopped and started all the time, they are designed to be long running stable processes
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2018-03-07T14:05:16Z jmercouris: that's what I mean
2018-03-07T14:05:19Z fe[nl]ix: so ?
2018-03-07T14:05:54Z jmercouris: I'm not running a massive organization requiring many different microservices to interact via RPC, so Thrift is not my ideal solution
2018-03-07T14:06:09Z jmercouris: that's my point, I'm making a desktop application that has a server/client
2018-03-07T14:06:41Z jmercouris: so while thrift is very cool, a great technology, it is not appropriate for my application
2018-03-07T14:09:54Z fe[nl]ix: now you make sense
2018-03-07T14:10:46Z fe[nl]ix: I still think it might be wrong because those serialization libraries used in large organizations tend to have much better error reporting than bare JSON
2018-03-07T14:10:52Z fe[nl]ix: or whatever you come up with
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2018-03-07T14:13:18Z jmercouris: I'm doing bare xml, but I'll control both ends, so it won't be too bad hopefully
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2018-03-07T14:16:58Z schweers: I’m still having trouble with logical pathnames.  I want to substitute a directory (works) and I want to substitute a suffix because I have double suffixes.  As far as I understand, if the result of a translation is in turn a logical pathname, it is translated again.  So it should be possible to combine these cases.  However this doesn’t work for me: https://pastebin.com/yrzWhUfe  Any ideas what I’m doing wrong?
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2018-03-07T14:39:16Z _sfiguser: hello all, who is using in the industry lisp?
2018-03-07T14:39:18Z _sfiguser: and why ?
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2018-03-07T14:42:09Z beach: Not many.
2018-03-07T14:42:16Z beach: They are probably insane.
2018-03-07T14:42:42Z _sfiguser: ohh that's why
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2018-03-07T14:43:40Z Shinmera: I am for sure insane
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2018-03-07T14:43:56Z beach: But you are not industry.
2018-03-07T14:44:01Z beach: So that doesn't count.
2018-03-07T14:44:04Z jdz: I'm probably insane, and I'm using lisp at work, but I would not call my work "industry".
2018-03-07T14:44:10Z schweers: We probably all are.  At least other people see us that way ;)
2018-03-07T14:44:36Z beach: jdz: Still, that's close.
2018-03-07T14:45:09Z pmetzger: There are a lot of lisp users out there in industrial contexts.
2018-03-07T14:45:15Z pmetzger: Hell, even Google uses it for some things.
2018-03-07T14:45:26Z beach: Ssshhh!
2018-03-07T14:45:45Z pmetzger: And Clojure is being used very widely.
2018-03-07T14:45:57Z _sfiguser: but it's old
2018-03-07T14:46:16Z beach: pmetzger: Damn.  How are we going to maintain our productivity advantage if you blab to everyone.
2018-03-07T14:46:17Z schweers: _sfiguser: not as old as C or C++
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2018-03-07T14:48:01Z pmetzger: Lisp dates to the late 1950s. C dates to 1971 or so.
2018-03-07T14:48:08Z pmetzger: C++ dates to the 1980s.
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2018-03-07T14:48:35Z schweers: but Common Lisp is not so old
2018-03-07T14:49:07Z schweers: anyways, I don’t see how age itself is that relevant
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2018-03-07T14:50:56Z beach: I still remember when my parents were forced to replace the gas stove with an electric one.  After seeing how disappointing the electric stove was, my mother said "But I suppose it is more modern".
2018-03-07T14:51:06Z jdz: Only new stuff can be shiny, and everybody likes shiny things.
2018-03-07T14:53:08Z jdz: I should also refrain from saying anything if I don't have anything of substance to say.
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2018-03-07T14:58:12Z Shinmera: beach: On the other hand, induction stoves are really great, and more modern.
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2018-03-07T14:59:00Z schweers: Shinmera: but that they came around at a later date is not why they are great
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2018-03-07T15:10:49Z pmetzger: Common Lisp is arguably older than C++, as the standards effort predates C++.
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2018-03-07T15:11:14Z pmetzger: Common lisp hasn't changed much in the intervening decades either, while C++ keeps metastasizing, er, transforming.
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2018-03-07T15:12:38Z pmetzger: I think CLTL1 was 1984, and Stroustrup was only just beginning C++ around then.
2018-03-07T15:12:45Z schweers: Do you know when the standards effort began?  I thought the standards are from 89 and 94, respectively
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2018-03-07T15:13:06Z schweers: oh, well then C++ is indeed younger
2018-03-07T15:13:06Z pmetzger: The ANSI standards were only tweaks to CLTL1 and CLTL2
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2018-03-07T15:18:19Z pmetzger: Actually... CLTL2 was mostly an update of CLTL1 to reflect the tweaks from the ANSI effort. I think. I wasn't really paying attention at the time and it's been thirty years.
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2018-03-07T15:32:39Z Xach: phew
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2018-03-07T15:41:54Z jmercouris: Shinmera: induction stoves are also bad, you don't know how hot they are
2018-03-07T15:42:13Z jmercouris: the gas gives a really good visual indication of temperature
2018-03-07T15:42:49Z jmercouris: they are better than pure "traditional electric" stoves though, I'll give you that, they are more responsive
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2018-03-07T15:43:38Z schweers cooks up a nice batch of parentheses on a non-induction stove for everyone to enjoy.
2018-03-07T15:44:12Z _sfiguser: thanks schweers for the batch of parentheses
2018-03-07T15:44:17Z _sfiguser greets
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2018-03-07T15:47:04Z pmetzger: I love gas cooktops but electric ovens are better for baking.
2018-03-07T15:47:11Z pmetzger: Ideally you have each of those.
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2018-03-07T15:51:00Z TMA: I have a different experience with gas->electric stove transition than beach reports (for baking that is); electric cooktop of the old style was awful; the gas-top electric-oven combo is close to ideal
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2018-03-07T15:53:59Z phoe sees discussion about gas/electric cooktops
2018-03-07T15:54:36Z phoe: my life gets better every day
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2018-03-07T15:55:30Z schweers: phoe: maybe we should check out some cooking channel and see if they are talking about lisp
2018-03-07T15:55:49Z phoe: this would be interesting, yes
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2018-03-07T16:02:40Z jdz: Nail clippings in food?
2018-03-07T16:02:51Z phoe: you mean parentheses?
2018-03-07T16:03:09Z jdz: A bad attempt at a joke.
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2018-03-07T16:04:22Z jdz: Larry Wall is entitled to see lisp code like that since the rest of the world sees Perl code as line noise.
2018-03-07T16:04:46Z phoe: s/Perl/Lisp
2018-03-07T16:04:50Z phoe: s/line noise/parens
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2018-03-07T16:05:13Z phoe: But yes, I know that line about nail clippings.
2018-03-07T16:05:35Z schweers: Larry Wall claimed that lisp code looks like nail clippings?
2018-03-07T16:05:37Z pmetzger: Perl was a big improvement over the practical alternatives for gluing stuff together 25 years ago. Now the alternatives are a big improvement over perl.
2018-03-07T16:06:04Z jdz: Yay, I brought the discussion back on-topic! (not)
2018-03-07T16:06:10Z pmetzger: Perl 6 really killed Perl. Weirdly it wasn't so much second systems effect as third or fourth.
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2018-03-07T16:14:22Z whoman: let's do \t for ( and \n for )
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2018-03-07T16:27:56Z comborico1611: Has there been any improvements made to evaltrace notation since 1990?  I'm thinking mainly in terms of using it with paper and pencil.
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2018-03-07T16:36:12Z beach: comborico1611: Probably not.
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2018-03-07T16:39:52Z comborico1611: beach: thanks
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2018-03-07T16:41:08Z beach: comborico1611: Are you planning to use it in order to learn the evaluation rules of Common Lisp?
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2018-03-07T16:44:37Z Bike: what is evaltrace notation. like > form < result stuff?
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2018-03-07T16:46:02Z beach: Bike: http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2902&context=compsci
2018-03-07T16:46:40Z Bike: i see. guess i'd know this if i'd actually ared touretzky.
2018-03-07T16:48:56Z beach: He has got some strange pedagogical ideas in my opinion.
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2018-03-07T16:59:34Z comborico1611: beach: Yeah, it is in the book I'm using.  Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation.  Gotta go!
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2018-03-07T16:59:50Z CodeOrangutan: comborico1611: Ran across this article today, but honestly not sure that it's an improvement: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.98.5477&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2018-03-07T17:00:05Z CodeOrangutan: Darnit, just missed them.
2018-03-07T17:00:16Z stacksmith: Some of these 'teaching aids' are more complicated to learn than the subject itself...
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2018-03-07T17:07:06Z stacksmith: Wonder how many people bang their head against things like 'evaltrace notation' instead of just learning Lisp.
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2018-03-07T17:18:57Z CodeOrangutan: stacksmith: I'm finding the evaltrace notation useful to understand things like double and triple recursion.
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2018-03-07T17:36:01Z beach: CodeOrangutan: What is meant by "double and triple recursion"?
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2018-03-07T17:51:13Z CodeOrangutan: beach: Like FLATTEN FLAT and PRUNE in this code: https://github.com/GustavBertram/lisp-book-exercises/blob/master/on_lisp/4_3_operations_on_lists.lisp
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2018-03-07T17:54:49Z Pierpa: Hmmm... Never knew that there was a special name for these
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2018-03-07T17:55:42Z Pierpa: How's called the next after triple?
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2018-03-07T17:59:29Z CodeOrangutan: "Ow my brain hurts."
2018-03-07T17:59:30Z Bike: ...quadruple?
2018-03-07T17:59:45Z Bike: it's the same concept no matter which.
2018-03-07T18:00:05Z stacksmith: zero. one.  many.
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2018-03-07T18:01:33Z CodeOrangutan: I'm not sure if it's required that the function call itself like so: (func x (func y z)) or if (+ (func x) (func y)) is sufficient for double recursion, but the former form looks like it might qualify as a legit math term.
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2018-03-07T18:03:41Z Bike: it's not, really. might be vaguely related to not being primitive recurisve, at best.
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2018-03-07T18:08:30Z Pierpa: All this fuss about recursion is only because Fortran 66 did not allow for the same function be active more than once at the same time.
2018-03-07T18:09:36Z Pierpa: It It was not for this historical accident then then a function would be a function call. Stop.
2018-03-07T18:10:08Z Pierpa: *a function call would be a function call.
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2018-03-07T18:12:03Z Bike: recursivity is an important computational property even without computing devices being involved.
2018-03-07T18:12:25Z jmercouris: I've spent a lot of time thinking about recursion myself
2018-03-07T18:12:29Z jmercouris: I'm not sure if it is good or bad
2018-03-07T18:12:38Z jmercouris: I can think of problem sets it is suited to, but they are all artificial
2018-03-07T18:12:47Z Bike: you might as well ask if orange is good or bad.
2018-03-07T18:13:04Z stacksmith: A new kind of science
2018-03-07T18:13:05Z jmercouris: as in, I've never had a time where recursion has made a problem of mine significantly easier, or maybe I'm not skilled enough to have seen it
2018-03-07T18:13:28Z Pierpa: Hmmm
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2018-03-07T18:13:50Z jmercouris: Bike: when I say "good", I mean "applicable", an orange is not "good" at removing bolts, but a socket is
2018-03-07T18:13:54Z stacksmith: I find that about half of my looping is recursive.
2018-03-07T18:14:03Z shrdlu68: I did once, where an algorithm recursively generated a tree data structure.
2018-03-07T18:14:06Z Bike: yes, you're thinking of it as a technique, but that's not much good.
2018-03-07T18:14:23Z Bike: it is part of the structure of things.
2018-03-07T18:14:30Z Bike: if you want a non artificial example, learn some combinatorics.
2018-03-07T18:14:31Z Pierpa: Jmercouris: have you tried SICP?
2018-03-07T18:14:35Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: even tree manipulations can be done iteratively without issue though
2018-03-07T18:14:47Z sukaeto: so anecdote re: Touretzky
2018-03-07T18:14:49Z Bike: if you have four differently colored balls, how many different ways can you arrange them in a row?
2018-03-07T18:15:02Z stacksmith: It's a very different way of thinking, even if the result is the same.
2018-03-07T18:15:03Z jmercouris: Pierpa: never read it, no
2018-03-07T18:15:06Z Bike: pick one at a time and put it at the head, then arrange the other three balls.
2018-03-07T18:15:11Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Yes, of course, but recusing makes it _so_ much easier.
2018-03-07T18:15:14Z Bike: so 4! = 4 * 3!
2018-03-07T18:15:18Z sukaeto: I gave his book to my wife, and she became confounded by his introduction to lists - how he goes into detail drawing linked list diagrams of cons cells
2018-03-07T18:15:29Z Bike: using n! as the notation for "number of ways to arrange n things".
2018-03-07T18:15:33Z pfdietz: Not sure you should blame Fortran 66 when the first lisp was in 1958.
2018-03-07T18:16:00Z sukaeto: not because it didn't make sense, but because she became impatient with it.  "What's the point of this!  Where is he going with this?  This is stupid!  Is this what you deal with every day at work?"
2018-03-07T18:16:10Z jmercouris: pfdietz: I think it is a "blame" in terms of suggesting a source for popularity
2018-03-07T18:16:21Z jmercouris: sukaeto: I can 100% relate
2018-03-07T18:16:21Z Pierpa: Pfdietz: good point. I meant the first fortrans.
2018-03-07T18:16:45Z shka: hello
2018-03-07T18:16:49Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: definitely true, for some types of traversal and generation, yeah
2018-03-07T18:16:51Z shka: quick question
2018-03-07T18:16:57Z sukaeto: and it got me thinking that yes, maybe talking about how things are laid out in memory that early on is not only unnecessary, it's actually detrimental
2018-03-07T18:17:11Z shka: do i write floats correctly? https://pastebin.com/4UwRYZkU
2018-03-07T18:17:19Z shka: it is binary stream
2018-03-07T18:17:27Z pfdietz: Tree als can be done iteratively but that often means you are implicitly unwinding a recursive algorithm with your own stack.
2018-03-07T18:17:30Z shka: uh, at least i think it is binary stream
2018-03-07T18:17:47Z pfdietz: algorithms
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2018-03-07T18:18:14Z jmercouris: pfdietz: well, yeah, if you consider a "queue" unwinding a stack
2018-03-07T18:18:18Z Bike: shka: there's no "right" order. you just need to ensure that whatever is reading it back later wants the bytes in that order.
2018-03-07T18:18:23Z jmercouris: s/queue/stack
2018-03-07T18:18:29Z jmercouris: damnit, yes you are 100% correct :D
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2018-03-07T18:18:46Z shka: Bike: this goes into C code...
2018-03-07T18:18:57Z shka: on little endian machine
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2018-03-07T18:18:59Z Bike: okay, so ensure that the c code reading it back wants the bytes in that order.
2018-03-07T18:18:59Z jmercouris: shka: I think it is then system dependent
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2018-03-07T18:19:37Z jmercouris: I'm not much of a C developer, but I believe different implementations didn't implement floats in the same way
2018-03-07T18:19:39Z pfdietz: Stack us natural for depth first traversal.
2018-03-07T18:19:44Z shka: Bike: ideally, i want to memory map file and toss around it as array
2018-03-07T18:19:48Z jmercouris: as in, they had different limitations
2018-03-07T18:20:01Z shka: i would rather write more lisp code, then deal with C
2018-03-07T18:20:15Z stacksmith: shka: there is no standard for serializing floats in Lisp or C - it is _application_ dependent
2018-03-07T18:20:54Z shka: duh
2018-03-07T18:21:09Z shka: eh, ok
2018-03-07T18:21:12Z shka: thanks for help
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2018-03-07T18:39:43Z pfdietz: Yes that looks ominously relevant.
2018-03-07T18:39:55Z pfdietz: Oops wrong channel
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2018-03-07T18:50:34Z didi: What should I use if I want to retrieve a key, any key, from a hash table?
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2018-03-07T18:51:57Z Xach: didi: what do you want to do if it is empty?
2018-03-07T18:53:53Z didi: Xach: Good question. (values nil nil) sounds appropriate, as the second value represents emptiness.
2018-03-07T18:54:15Z Xach: In the non-empty case, (block nil (maphash (lambda (k v) (return k)))) is an option.
2018-03-07T18:54:41Z didi: Xach: Thank you.
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2018-03-07T19:08:32Z didi: Xach: What about (with-hash-table-iterator (fn ht) (nth-value 1 (fn))) ?
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2018-03-07T19:13:45Z Xach: didi: hey that sounds good too!
2018-03-07T19:14:15Z didi: Xach: Nice. Thank you.
2018-03-07T19:14:21Z Xach: didi: i rarely think about w-h-t-i and that isn't a bad use of it
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2018-03-07T19:14:34Z didi: :-)
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2018-03-07T19:47:29Z emaczen: Can I handle a unhandled memory error from CFFI?
2018-03-07T19:47:39Z emaczen: I'm tired of restarting the REPL
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2018-03-07T19:48:16Z phoe: emaczen: in general, no.
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2018-03-07T19:48:47Z phoe: The moment you get a segfault, the game is over in general case. Your code might have already written all over your memory and corrupted things that will screw you up later.
2018-03-07T19:49:28Z phoe: SBCL has error handlers installed for that, so when it segfaults, it drops you into its Lisp debugger in most cases.
2018-03-07T19:49:32Z didi shivers
2018-03-07T19:49:53Z phoe: But the fact that your OS detected a segfault is one thing, it's more fun when your system does *not* detect a segfault.
2018-03-07T19:49:57Z phoe: Which is the actually scary case.
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2018-03-07T19:51:06Z phoe: In other words: welcome to the joys of development with memory-unsafe languages. Please enjoy the view and fasten your seatbSegmentation fault (core dumped)
2018-03-07T19:51:18Z didi: Nice.
2018-03-07T19:51:35Z emaczen: Well yesterday I was learning how CFFI deals with C pointers in terms of getting an address and dereferencing
2018-03-07T19:51:57Z emaczen: the dereferencing equivalent is #'cffi:mem-ref or #'cffi:mem-aref
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2018-03-07T19:52:09Z phoe: Yep, more or less that.
2018-03-07T19:52:11Z emaczen: There is no equivalent for addressof
2018-03-07T19:52:17Z emaczen: cffi just wants a pointer
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2018-03-07T19:52:32Z phoe: emaczen: address of *what*?
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2018-03-07T19:52:48Z Bike: i think the official term would be "lvalue"
2018-03-07T19:53:31Z emaczen: phoe: I'm looking at some C code: &config->interface[i]
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2018-03-07T19:53:47Z emaczen: config is already declared as a pointer
2018-03-07T19:53:55Z phoe: that means &(config->interface[i]), correct?
2018-03-07T19:53:56Z emaczen: In Lisp I used #'cffi:foreign-alloc
2018-03-07T19:54:10Z Bike: it does mean that.
2018-03-07T19:54:13Z emaczen: phoe: Oh, I didn't think of it like that
2018-03-07T19:54:15Z phoe: so the address of ith element of the interface array, right?
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2018-03-07T19:54:26Z emaczen: phoe: that is probably my problem
2018-03-07T19:54:31Z Bike: so mem-aptr i think.
2018-03-07T19:54:32Z phoe: emaczen: it's completely pointless if it was (&config)->interface[i]
2018-03-07T19:54:42Z phoe: because suddenly you have (&config) which is of type size_t
2018-03-07T19:54:48Z phoe: so a numeric value
2018-03-07T19:54:58Z phoe: and you try to dereference its interface slot
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2018-03-07T19:55:09Z phoe: which will explode even during compilation.
2018-03-07T19:55:21Z emaczen: phoe: when one is just translating they tend not to think lol
2018-03-07T19:55:35Z phoe: emaczen: this is why we can't have nice things.
2018-03-07T19:55:48Z emaczen: phoe: because of C?
2018-03-07T19:55:52Z phoe: no.
2018-03-07T19:56:00Z phoe: translating stuff between languages requires thinking, especially between languages as wildly different as C and Lisp.
2018-03-07T19:56:42Z phoe: where one is a weakly statically typed static language and the other is a strongly dynamically typed interactive language. and that's just one difference out of many.
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2018-03-07T19:57:42Z emaczen: phoe: One of the reasons why I like Lisp so much is that the grammar makes it immediately obvious
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2018-03-07T19:58:00Z emaczen: and you get macros at the same time
2018-03-07T19:58:08Z phoe: emaczen: yeah, in Lisp there's no ambiguity if 2+2*2 is 6 or 8.
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2018-03-07T19:58:33Z emaczen: I'll never understand how C is more popular than Lisp
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2018-03-07T19:58:58Z jmercouris: emaczen: performance on old machines
2018-03-07T19:59:11Z phoe gently nudges this discussion towards #lispcafe though
2018-03-07T19:59:32Z Bike: i suppose the concept of lvalues is a bit like places. i think it makes sense to view & as similar to a macro.
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2018-03-07T20:03:06Z Bike: so if it was in cffi, you'd have like (addressof (mem-aref x y z)) expand to (mem-aptr x y z).
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2018-03-07T20:05:27Z emaczen: Bike: Give me a sec, I'm trying out mem-aptr
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2018-03-07T20:05:59Z emaczen: Well I'm not getting a segfault now
2018-03-07T20:07:49Z emaczen: One observation I do have though is that I tend to get a lot of segfaults because the C code I am translating is passing pointers to be modified, and then uses this pointer again and I can't tell if it needs dereferenced.
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2018-03-07T20:09:04Z emaczen: Is this a correct observation? There are cases that I can obviously tell where pointers need dereferenced, but it is when these pointers are modified in a function and used later (without looking at the function) nobody can tell they may need dereferenced?
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2018-03-07T20:09:23Z phoe: emaczen: pointers are just numbers
2018-03-07T20:09:44Z phoe: and dereferencing pointers in C is always explicit, using the deref operator.
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2018-03-07T20:10:11Z phoe: if you pass a number around, that number is always itself, unless you explicitly incf or decf it using C's ++ or -- operators.
2018-03-07T20:10:18Z phoe: same thing with pointers.
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2018-03-07T20:11:50Z emaczen: In the code I am looking at, config is declared as a pointer, its address is then passed to a function for initialization, and finally it is used like: &config->interface[i]
2018-03-07T20:12:19Z emaczen: In my lisp code, I had to use mem-ref on config before I could use foreign-slot-value and finally mem-aptr
2018-03-07T20:12:48Z phoe: &((config->interface)[i])
2018-03-07T20:12:57Z Bike: so you need to allocate a pointer to config, which you then pass to the initializer.
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2018-03-07T20:13:17Z Bike: and then using *pconfig instead of config, conceptually.
2018-03-07T20:13:27Z emaczen: I already did allocate the pointer
2018-03-07T20:13:32Z emaczen: and pass it to the initializer
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2018-03-07T20:15:25Z emaczen: I have: (cffi:mem-aptr (cffi:foreign-slot-value (cffi:mem-ref config) ..) ..) and what I don't understand is why I had to mem-ref when I had previously, foreign-alloced config and then passed it to the initializer
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2018-03-07T20:15:46Z Bike: you didn't foreign alloc config, you alloced a pointer to config, right?
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2018-03-07T20:16:12Z emaczen: (let ((config (cffi:foreign-alloc '(:struct libusb-config-descriptor)))) -- that's what I did
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2018-03-07T20:19:11Z Bike: what do you pass to the initializer then?
2018-03-07T20:19:37Z Bike: i thought you had like "struct libusb_config_descriptor* config; initialize(&config);"
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2018-03-07T20:21:15Z emaczen: BIke: that's right
2018-03-07T20:21:46Z Bike: what do you pass to the initializer then?
2018-03-07T20:21:56Z Bike: in lisp.
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2018-03-07T20:23:08Z emaczen: Bike: just config
2018-03-07T20:23:34Z emaczen: it is still a pointer, so my understanding is that CFFI doesn't care
2018-03-07T20:23:40Z Bike: Okay let's think about this for a moment. config, in C, is of type struct libusb_config_descriptor*. Then &config must be of type libusb_config_descriptor**.
2018-03-07T20:23:50Z emaczen: yep
2018-03-07T20:23:58Z Bike: But you're just passing config to the initializer.
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2018-03-07T20:24:30Z Bike: So... that's wrong.
2018-03-07T20:24:59Z Bike: I think you want like (let ((&config (cffi:foreign-alloc '(:pointer (:struct libusb-config-descriptor))))) ...)
2018-03-07T20:24:59Z emaczen: Bike: I was under the impression that it is a pointer and CFFI doesn't care
2018-03-07T20:25:17Z Bike: it could just be (cffi:foreign-alloc :pointer), sure.
2018-03-07T20:26:07Z emaczen: Bike: So foreign-alloc doesn't always return a pointer?
2018-03-07T20:26:12Z Bike: It does return a pointer.
2018-03-07T20:26:18Z Bike: It returns a pointer to the type you give it.
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2018-03-07T20:27:02Z emaczen: (:pointer (:struct ...)) would be a pointer to a pointer then
2018-03-07T20:27:06Z Bike: Yep.
2018-03-07T20:27:11Z Bike: That's what &config is, right?
2018-03-07T20:27:22Z Bike: Or rather, (foreign-alloc '(:pointer (:struct ...))) would be a pointer to a pointer.
2018-03-07T20:27:41Z emaczen: Yep that is what I meant
2018-03-07T20:28:14Z emaczen: Bike: I guess I'll have to start explicitly doing (let ((x) (&x)) ...)
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2018-03-07T20:28:40Z Bike: I would just only allocate &x
2018-03-07T20:28:44Z Bike: and then mem-ref when you need x
2018-03-07T20:28:48Z Bike: your preference, i guess
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2018-03-07T20:29:55Z Bike: The reason CFFI is conceptually difficult is that it deals with C programs without C's compiler restrictions, which is why all pointers are the same and such. But it still uses some c-like syntax. It can be confusing
2018-03-07T20:30:21Z Bike: well okay. A reason it's difficult
2018-03-07T20:31:49Z Bike: In this situation - the alloc thing - "pointers are all the same" isn't actually so, though.
2018-03-07T20:31:56Z |3b| isn't sure "without ... restrictions" is quite right, since actually keeping track of the types would be a nice feature for correctness :)
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2018-03-07T20:32:26Z Bike: When you (foreign-alloc '(:struct libusb-config-descriptor)) it allocates however many bytes of memory that struct takes up. That could be, for instance, zero, though I assume it isn't
2018-03-07T20:32:27Z |3b|: problem is more that you can't stack-allocate C things and take address of them, so you can't translate c code directly
2018-03-07T20:32:57Z Bike: you then pass C a pointer to that memory, and the C program assumes that it can mess with as many bytes pointed to as there are in a pointer
2018-03-07T20:33:48Z |3b|: (well, maybe you can stack allocate them and take address of them, but you can't /not/ take the address of them and use them directly)
2018-03-07T20:33:51Z Bike: |3b|: having a ffi layer with compile time checking sounds, interesting
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2018-03-07T20:34:10Z |3b|: sbcl alien stuff has some of that i think
2018-03-07T20:34:29Z Bike: might be good for a general unsafe-fuck-with-memory lisp language
2018-03-07T20:35:13Z |3b|: would probably help with some of the above problems (assuming correct function definitions), if function wants ** and you pass it *, it could tell you :)
2018-03-07T20:35:35Z |3b|: or if you pass ** and it wants *
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2018-03-07T20:42:13Z emaczen: Yeah, I just need more experience with CFFI
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2018-03-07T21:26:46Z pjb: minion: memo for schweers:  "IMPORTER:**;*.tar.gz" is not a logical pathname, because gz is not a valid version number.
2018-03-07T21:26:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell schweers when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-03-07T21:27:26Z pjb: minion: memo for schweers:  also, you must have the same number of stars in both sides.
2018-03-07T21:27:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell schweers when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-03-07T21:45:26Z pjb: minion: memo for _sfiguser: have a look at http://franz.com/success
2018-03-07T21:45:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell _sfiguser when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-03-07T21:53:44Z pjb: comborico1611: you're asking specifically about evaltrace and stuff, but perhaps you would be interested in cl-stepper?
2018-03-07T21:55:30Z pjb: comborico1611: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/50k86A63WJA/hMu30bPh6OsJ
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2018-03-07T22:05:49Z comborico1611: pjb, I was looking for something to use with pencil and paper.
2018-03-07T22:06:11Z comborico1611: But I'm sure STepper will help.  Thanks!
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2018-03-07T22:08:44Z pjb: Yes, I'm sure my teachers was looking for something done with pencil and paper whe I wrote   10 for i=1 to 100 : print "I will not expose the ignorance of the faculty." : next i    and used the tty instead.
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2018-03-07T22:09:14Z pjb: (it wasn't Basic but LSE, and it wasn't that sentence, but it was 100 times).
2018-03-07T22:09:42Z pjb: And anyways, we all knew the 5 pen trick… :-)
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2018-03-07T22:10:49Z pjb: Come to think of it, that must be the reason why bic stylos are sent by 5, when one bic is usually enough for the whole year… (and notice their convenient hexagonal section).
2018-03-07T22:10:59Z comborico1611: Heh, oh yes, that is old school.
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2018-03-07T22:17:30Z pjb: phoe: for the whole world, 2+2*2 has no ambiguity.  Only those idiots of amercans can find an ambiguity there.
2018-03-07T22:21:07Z pjb: emaczen: note that config->interface is equivalent to (*config).interface
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2018-03-07T23:03:11Z jcowan: pjb: 2+2*2 is not ambiguous to us either
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2018-03-07T23:16:41Z pjb: jcowan: happy to know it.  Still some people believe it's ambiguous :-(
2018-03-07T23:17:12Z jcowan: Well, I suppose you can't force people to understand things, even if they have known all about them since age eight.
2018-03-07T23:17:28Z Bike: remember when 48÷2(9+3) was all over the internet
2018-03-07T23:17:44Z jcowan: Not in my corner of it, no.
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2018-03-07T23:21:23Z White_Flame: (funcall #'48÷2 (+ 9 3))
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2018-03-07T23:26:51Z jmercouris: I have found an example of using the sbcl unix domain sockets: https://gist.github.com/205c1de56cb66de167c30271666c6975
2018-03-07T23:27:06Z jmercouris: in the tests.lisp that come with the sbcl source code
2018-03-07T23:27:36Z jmercouris: out of curiosity, does anyone have experience with them on OSX?
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2018-03-08T03:02:20Z dandruff: I've heard people say that macros wouldn't be possible with a static type system, but it looks like it might be possible with linear/unique types: https://github.com/fare/moll
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2018-03-08T03:10:12Z mrm: dandruff: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/stchang/pubs/ckg-popl2017.pdf
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2018-03-08T03:12:32Z dandruff: mrm: that looks cool!
2018-03-08T03:12:33Z sigjuice: what are the unusual looking filenames in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/eazy-project-20180131-git/skeleton about?
2018-03-08T03:13:46Z loke: sigjuice: seems like template names.
2018-03-08T03:13:50Z loke: Clever
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2018-03-08T03:16:02Z sigjuice: I also stumbled across this thing on my computer a few months ago. ~/Library/Caches/$(CFBundleIdentifier)
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2018-03-08T03:44:47Z loke: sigjuice: That looks like a bug.
2018-03-08T03:49:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-08T04:10:03Z mlf is now known as mfleming
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2018-03-08T04:38:42Z Xach: As little as I like timezone discussion, I feel a little isolated from my lisp friends due to being in a bad timezone for the next 10 days.
2018-03-08T04:39:13Z Xach: I am quite looking forward to ELS!
2018-03-08T04:39:28Z Xach: That will eliminate time zone trouble for quite a group for a few days!
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2018-03-08T05:14:45Z smokeink: how difficult would it be to make a system/algorithm in SBCL that can store in a hashtable all the symbols which are called during a 'testing session' (a session in which the app is run and all the implemented functions are called with the purpose of tesing all the app's functionalities), and then destroy all the symbols which were never called - thus reducing the image for deployment ? there must be a way to do that, and it should
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2018-03-08T05:14:50Z smokeink: portably work with most implementations
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2018-03-08T05:24:48Z pjb: smokeink: Do something like cl-stepper and compile all the code with it.
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2018-03-08T05:26:08Z smokeink: pjb: thanks !
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2018-03-08T05:57:06Z White_Flame: smokeink: there are tools called tree shakers that are supposed to cull unused portions of code.  I've not used them, but you can search for the term
2018-03-08T05:58:33Z smokeink: White_Flame: good idea. https://gist.github.com/burtonsamograd/f08f561264ff94391300
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2018-03-08T06:00:58Z White_Flame: "destroys the package system and does a gc before saving the lisp image"  I guess that's one way to do it :)
2018-03-08T06:01:34Z White_Flame does way too much dynamic runtime loading & building to ever use one
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2018-03-08T06:06:00Z beach: I would think it is not worth it.
2018-03-08T06:06:38Z beach: smokeink: Have you done a back-of-envelope calculation that justifies decreasing the image size?
2018-03-08T06:06:38Z smokeink: "Wouldn't it be a better approach to start with a tiny kernel and only load what is needed, instead of loading everything and then trying to get rid of everything?"
2018-03-08T06:07:28Z beach: smokeink: Common Lisp doesn't work that way.  Once EVAL or COMPILE is needed, you must have the entire compiler in the image.
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2018-03-08T06:10:02Z jackdaniel: you can load it on demand. default compile may be lazy, like (defun compile (&rest args) (declare (notinline compile)) (without-package-locks (load-cmp-module)) (apply compile args))
2018-03-08T06:10:10Z jackdaniel: hey
2018-03-08T06:10:17Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2018-03-08T06:11:09Z jackdaniel: s/apply compile/apply 'compile/
2018-03-08T06:11:11Z beach: jackdaniel: That sounds like a good idea.  On systems that don't have demand paging.  Otherwise, the compiler would naturally migrate to disk anyway.
2018-03-08T06:11:44Z beach: But I wonder whether smokeink had such a system in mind.
2018-03-08T06:12:00Z jackdaniel: sure, my point is that there is nothing preventing implementer from separating small runtime core from the rest
2018-03-08T06:12:09Z jackdaniel: or event making such module unavailable
2018-03-08T06:12:17Z jackdaniel: so load-cmp-module leads to an error
2018-03-08T06:12:42Z jackdaniel: (that's what ecl does, I'm simply describing not inventing the solution)
2018-03-08T06:13:08Z beach: Sure, but what's the point?  Having a small executable, and then a larger file with the compiler in it.
2018-03-08T06:13:45Z jackdaniel: I can imagine deployment scenario when I'm anxious about providing compiler / evaluator in runtime
2018-03-08T06:13:50Z White_Flame: surely the point is to have a fixed-function application executable
2018-03-08T06:13:51Z jackdaniel: or don't want to
2018-03-08T06:14:04Z jackdaniel: and what White_Flame said
2018-03-08T06:14:17Z jackdaniel: there are such scenarios (which are not very common though)
2018-03-08T06:14:34Z jackdaniel: like it's not very common to have lisp library as a shared object, but it is useful in some projects
2018-03-08T06:14:47Z jackdaniel: (or might be :)
2018-03-08T06:15:40Z beach again fails to get his point across, so he will be quiet.  And he should learn not to try in the future either, so as to prevent additional frustration.
2018-03-08T06:17:06Z White_Flame: but even to smokeink's last statement, if you lazily load in stuff during development, then you still need to remove the lazy loader mechanism when you bake your image for deployment
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2018-03-08T06:17:35Z White_Flame: (hypothetically speaking)
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2018-03-08T06:21:03Z White_Flame: and still remove any remnants of dev tools
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2018-03-08T06:35:00Z p_l: beach: My favourite case for decreasing image sizes are downloading things over internet. And my back-of-the-envelope calculation was based on realities of mobile internet
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2018-03-08T06:39:51Z beach: p_l: I believe you, but I don't understand the scenario.
2018-03-08T06:40:44Z p_l: beach: simple - very, very lousy network connection, and wanting to get a program over it.
2018-03-08T06:40:58Z beach: I see.
2018-03-08T06:41:12Z p_l: that said, these days I also often deal with systems that have much lower memory not because of hw, but because of bin-packing services
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2018-03-08T06:41:18Z pjb: p_l: then it's easy: send the sources!
2018-03-08T06:41:22Z pjb: or fasl.
2018-03-08T06:42:47Z p_l: where the size of image matters due to setup time (download, unpack, etc.)
2018-03-08T06:43:06Z pjb: also, use ecl.
2018-03-08T06:43:42Z p_l: beach: btw, fun idea that just came to me regarding a modularly-designed implementation - network demand-pagein of code
2018-03-08T06:44:00Z p_l: over, well, "anything" (including HTTP)
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2018-03-08T06:44:35Z p_l: the scenario is one where the end users do not know nor care if the application is on disk already
2018-03-08T06:44:52Z p_l: but you want low latency for possibly big application
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2018-03-08T06:46:13Z p_l: this is what MS Office does these days, among other things
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2018-03-08T06:50:21Z p_l: And, IIRC, android for the "instant app" feature
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2018-03-08T06:55:03Z beach: p_l: Yes, good idea, unless the code is then controlled by some commercial company.
2018-03-08T06:55:18Z p_l: I meant as a general feature
2018-03-08T06:55:23Z beach: Sure.
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2018-03-08T06:58:32Z pjb: smokeink: notice that if you call MAPCAR, and never call CAR, and then you delete CAR, it could fail, because nothing prevents an implementation to use (funcall 'car x) instead of (car x) inside MAPCAR. (or something similar).
2018-03-08T06:59:03Z smokeink: right
2018-03-08T06:59:49Z beach: smokeink: And if you haven't called all your generic functions with all possible combinations of classes, then the compiler might be invoked in the middle of your application execution.
2018-03-08T07:00:03Z beach: smokeink: But if you took out the compiler, your application will then fail.
2018-03-08T07:00:35Z beach: smokeink: I am still waiting for that back-of-envelope calculation that lead you to think that you must decrease the image size.
2018-03-08T07:01:18Z pjb: iOS applications are in the megabytes (more like the tens or hundreds of megabytes).
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2018-03-08T07:01:41Z pjb: For gigabyte games, they've got a system to download the game level-by-level…
2018-03-08T07:02:14Z pjb: Yeah, right.  African market is foremost cheap Android…
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2018-03-08T07:03:46Z smokeink: beach: here's a calculation that illustrates your point https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/49f1RMAjBm8 right after "In practice it'll be a lot of work to implement a solid tree shaker. " ... But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss about such hacks :) I am interested to learn more about the technicalities of tree shaking
2018-03-08T07:04:26Z pjb: smokeink: I think the best way to learn about it, is to start implementing it.
2018-03-08T07:05:05Z pjb: smokeink: for example, the delete all packages algo.  You may notice problems on some implementations, or that it work well in some others…
2018-03-08T07:08:13Z beach: smokeink: It is even more complicated that that, because a lot of people assume that the amount of RAM consumed will be the size of the image, but that is true only if your system does not use demand paging.  So in many cases, the cost is only for the disk.
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2018-03-08T07:09:22Z beach: smokeink: For example, if the compiler is needed while your application warms up the generic-function caches, eventually, it will probably migrate to disk, leaving you with a much smaller RAM footprint than the image.
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2018-03-08T07:18:31Z smokeink: Actually it'd be just great if (asdf:operate 'asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op :my-system) would create a loadable .fasl - then I could just distribute my app as a .fasl and all 'd be cool. The problem is that the generated .fasl is never loadable, I think asdf 'assembles' together the individual .fasls in the wrong order, or I don't know...
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2018-03-08T07:19:21Z Shinmera: ASDF can't assemble fasls, all it can do is assemble a single lisp file for everything and turn that into a fasl.
2018-03-08T07:19:50Z smokeink: good to know, thanks
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2018-03-08T07:25:48Z Shinmera: also: distributing fasls is a bad idea because fasls are typically constrained to an exact version and platform combination of your implementation.
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2018-03-08T07:26:55Z smokeink: hmmm
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2018-03-08T07:27:20Z Shinmera: if you want to distribute your app you should either distribute binaries, or sources.
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2018-03-08T07:59:41Z hajovonta: good morning
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2018-03-08T08:03:42Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-03-08T10:04:08Z fourier: anyone bought tickets to ELS/Spain already? Which airport is the closest?
2018-03-08T10:05:07Z loke: fourier: Gibraltar or Malaga
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2018-03-08T10:05:21Z Shinmera: My ticket is to Malaga
2018-03-08T10:05:45Z Shinmera: getting to Marbella from there is just a bus ride away.
2018-03-08T10:06:41Z fourier: aha thanks, will try to book now
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2018-03-08T10:14:04Z _death: I bought a ticket.. think it's about time to go to a Lisp conference
2018-03-08T10:14:26Z loke: _death: Where do you live?
2018-03-08T10:14:27Z Shinmera: So many #lisp people coming this year
2018-03-08T10:14:33Z _death: loke: Israel
2018-03-08T10:14:39Z loke really wanted to go, but it didn't happen this year
2018-03-08T10:14:48Z loke: _death: Not too far away for you then
2018-03-08T10:14:56Z fourier: we decided to combine with vacation, and traveling with 2 families ;)
2018-03-08T10:15:28Z _death: loke: yeah
2018-03-08T10:16:12Z tazjin: Shinmera: is there a demo instance of purplish available somewhere?
2018-03-08T10:16:25Z Shinmera: tazjin: http://chan.tymoon.eu/
2018-03-08T10:16:43Z tazjin: thanks
2018-03-08T10:16:52Z Shinmera: My radiance applications are unfortunately all severely lacking in documentation, sorry about that :(
2018-03-08T10:17:52Z tazjin: what you lack in documentation you make up for in responsiveness, so don't worry :)
2018-03-08T10:17:58Z tazjin: (just that that doesn't scale as well as docs)
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2018-03-08T10:23:33Z Shinmera: Maybe one day I'll get to writing docs
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2018-03-08T12:05:06Z mfiano: Is anyone familiar with Common Lisp development on NixOS? It's slightly weird, because CFFI cannot find foreign libraries, given that they are not located in the standard locations.
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2018-03-08T12:10:23Z shka: mfiano: IIRC CFFI allows to specify so search path
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2018-03-08T12:11:21Z mfiano: Yes, well NixOS doesn't have 1 path where all libraries live
2018-03-08T12:11:41Z mfiano: Every version of every library is in it's own directory.
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2018-03-08T12:35:12Z Bike: how do system tools find libraries?
2018-03-08T12:35:56Z ecraven: everything is linked against the specific paths
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2018-03-08T12:37:26Z ecraven: so if you uninstall that exact version, your binary won't work, even if there is a slightly different library version installed (which is on purpose)
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2018-03-08T12:39:33Z Shinmera: mfiano: Could ask ldconfig, I guess
2018-03-08T12:40:12Z Shinmera: Arguably CFFI should do that anyhow.
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2018-03-08T12:40:55Z mfiano: LD_LIBRARY_PATH doesn't even have anything
2018-03-08T12:41:17Z Shinmera: It typically doesn't.
2018-03-08T12:41:48Z mfiano: I'm probably going back to Arch for my dev box. I spent the last 2 weeks migrating 10 machines over to NixOS and was hoping to get back to coding this weekend
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2018-03-08T12:42:12Z Shinmera: try ldconfig -p | grep libraryname
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2018-03-08T12:42:46Z mfiano: ldconfig: Can't open cache file /nix/store/2kcrj1ksd2a14bm5sky182fv2xwfhfap-glibc-2.26-131/etc/ld.so.cache
2018-03-08T12:42:49Z mfiano: No such file or directory
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2018-03-08T13:27:31Z hairydeathtrap: Hi. Is European Lisp Symposium registration down? Can't register, it says "Missing fields: Credit card transaction, Type of attendance, Name, Email". Feels like Java enterprise.
2018-03-08T13:29:18Z Shinmera: hairydeathtrap: Sounds more like you got JS disabled.
2018-03-08T13:30:46Z hairydeathtrap: Shinmera: I don't think I have JS disabled. I've tried in 4 browsers, mobile Safari included
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2018-03-08T13:31:10Z Shinmera: Hm. I tested it on all platforms and browsers available to me and it worked fine on all.
2018-03-08T13:31:25Z Shinmera: That error sounds like it's not submitting the fields to the server script properly.
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2018-03-08T13:34:21Z Shinmera: Do you have access to the JS console? Does it report anything more informative?
2018-03-08T13:35:08Z beach: Speaking of which, both me and my (admittedly small) family are coming.  Must we register twice?
2018-03-08T13:35:44Z Shinmera: If both of you attend the conference, yes.
2018-03-08T13:35:53Z beach: OK.
2018-03-08T13:37:08Z hairydeathtrap: Shimera: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/static/register.php returns 400, request body: item=ELS-2018-early-regular&item=ELS-2018-banquet&payment=stripe
2018-03-08T13:37:56Z flip214: A static PHP file?!  sounds intriguing ;)
2018-03-08T13:38:01Z hairydeathtrap: I filled all the fields ofcourse
2018-03-08T13:38:28Z hairydeathtrap: POST there
2018-03-08T13:38:30Z Shinmera: hairydeathtrap: Okey, right, so the fields are indeed missing from the body, meaning something's going wrong on the JS side.
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2018-03-08T13:39:13Z Shinmera: flip214: The file is publicly available.
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2018-03-08T13:41:30Z Shinmera: hairydeathtrap: It looks like your browser is just submitting the form, instead of letting JS do it
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2018-03-08T13:44:02Z _death: could be some ad block thing
2018-03-08T13:44:08Z Shinmera: I'll move this to privmsg.
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2018-03-08T13:54:18Z Shinmera: Okey it looks like Didier screwed up the static page generation
2018-03-08T13:54:21Z Shinmera: it's missing the stripe public key.
2018-03-08T13:54:30Z Shinmera: I mailed him, so hopefully he can fix it soon.
2018-03-08T13:55:01Z Shinmera: He probably regenerated the page on a system that didn't have the secrets configured properly. Sorry about that.
2018-03-08T13:55:14Z hairydeathtrap_: Awesome, thank you Shinmera
2018-03-08T13:57:03Z Shinmera: I'll add some checks so that this doesn't happen again.
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2018-03-08T14:01:21Z Shinmera: Done. https://github.com/european-lisp-symposium/els-web/commit/4ac333b4ebfa1d798921f64b3b0c8f0adeb34a29
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2018-03-08T14:06:07Z Shinmera: hairydeathtrap_: flip214: It's fixed.
2018-03-08T14:06:14Z Shinmera: Thank you for your patience.
2018-03-08T14:09:54Z hajovonta: It turned out I can't attend the conference. We've just bought a house and there is a lot to arrange.
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2018-03-08T14:54:43Z jmercouris: So, I am at the point in my program where I have to start defining the transport language and API that will be supported between my lisp core and foreign program
2018-03-08T14:54:55Z jmercouris: For this reason I was thinking about some way to convert sexpr to XML or something like that
2018-03-08T14:55:08Z jmercouris: I took a look here: https://www.cliki.net/XML and I came across https://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml-rpc/
2018-03-08T14:55:16Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks a lot!
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2018-03-08T14:55:51Z jmercouris: Can anyone tell me if it is a smart or stupid idea to try to convert sexpr to XML for execution in my other environment?
2018-03-08T14:56:32Z dlowe: most web APIs these days use JSON
2018-03-08T14:56:34Z jmercouris: I'm imagining something like this (remote-execute '(set-minibuffer-height 80)) which will produce some html like <set-minibuffer-height>80</set-minibuffer-height> and send that out to my foreign code client
2018-03-08T14:56:54Z jmercouris: dlowe: It is for a program running locally, I control both sides of the program
2018-03-08T14:57:03Z jmercouris: as in, I control two programs, that are communicating over sockets
2018-03-08T14:57:05Z dlowe: but if you're not planning on other people using your protocol, why convert at all?
2018-03-08T14:57:17Z jmercouris: one side is in foreign code, so I wanted a transport language
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2018-03-08T14:57:18Z dlowe: just send sexprs
2018-03-08T14:57:29Z jmercouris: but there doesn't exist a sexpr parser in Objective-C
2018-03-08T14:57:40Z dlowe: there could :D
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2018-03-08T14:58:09Z jmercouris: s/html/xml
2018-03-08T14:58:26Z Shinmera: Writing an sexpr parser isn't hard.
2018-03-08T14:58:45Z dlowe: well, if you must have some other wire format, I'd go with json over xml
2018-03-08T14:58:49Z jmercouris: yes, but I will have to write one for every client
2018-03-08T14:58:50Z dlowe: but that's me
2018-03-08T14:59:04Z Pierpa: Probably you have json  libraries available in both languages?
2018-03-08T14:59:16Z jmercouris: both languages are objective-c and c++
2018-03-08T14:59:27Z jmercouris: so, yes
2018-03-08T14:59:28Z Shinmera: If you write it in C you can use it in both
2018-03-08T14:59:44Z jmercouris: That's true, I do in fact have sexpr parser I've already written in C...
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2018-03-08T15:00:28Z jmercouris: hopefully it is still on my disk somewhere
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2018-03-08T15:01:09Z jmercouris: so let's say I make a function call that doesn't provide a literal value, but instead a symbol
2018-03-08T15:01:22Z jmercouris: something like (set-minibuffer-height some-value)
2018-03-08T15:01:27Z jmercouris: I'll have to serialize some-value
2018-03-08T15:01:42Z jmercouris: but what if I want somethings to remain as symbols for the purposes of callbacks
2018-03-08T15:01:55Z jmercouris: as an example, (execute-some-operation-and-callback call-back-to-invoke)
2018-03-08T15:02:15Z jmercouris: the foreing code needs to be able to send a message to the lisp side and know to invoke call-back-to-invoke
2018-03-08T15:02:28Z jmercouris: s/foreing/foreign
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2018-03-08T15:02:49Z jmercouris: I guess I will need to write handlers for every operation
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2018-03-08T15:04:14Z jmercouris: then again, xml-rpc already is a protocol written in C and in Lisp...
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2018-03-08T15:08:14Z hajovonta: too bad you have to interface another languages
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2018-03-08T15:08:50Z Pierpa: Do you really need to exchange structured, nested, data?
2018-03-08T15:09:23Z jmercouris: Pierpa: to be honest no, I am probably overengineering
2018-03-08T15:09:36Z beach: What Emacs does to indent DEFCLASS is really not very good.  I am suggesting this way instead: https://pastebin.com/ThBGvF3v  Opinions?
2018-03-08T15:09:37Z Pierpa: If not, you cansimplify a lot
2018-03-08T15:14:09Z jmercouris: beach: the deeper indenting definitely makes it easier to read
2018-03-08T15:14:40Z jmercouris: especially for the symbol immediately following a :keyword
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2018-03-08T15:14:48Z jmercouris: or in this case form
2018-03-08T15:15:17Z jmercouris: beyond this basic feeling, I can't offer much better feedback, sorry
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2018-03-08T15:15:57Z Shinmera: beach: How do you feel about inline indenting? As in, providing spacing between items in a line.
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2018-03-08T15:17:31Z jcowan: beach: I am not very visual, how is this different from the Emacs default?
2018-03-08T15:18:08Z jmercouris: jcowan: https://gist.github.com/5848e115987696c8f10befc5e01559fc
2018-03-08T15:18:28Z jcowan: thanks
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2018-03-08T15:19:29Z jcowan: so it is just a matter of giving the value of a keyword (pseudo-)argument an extra indent when it is fat
2018-03-08T15:19:46Z Pierpa: Thanks for the comparison. Yes, the default is ugly
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2018-03-08T15:20:48Z Pierpa: Otoh, I never separate the keyword and the argument on two lines...
2018-03-08T15:20:54Z beach: Shinmera: I would have to think about that.  I assume you mean aligning things in columns, right?
2018-03-08T15:22:31Z beach: jcowan: Indenting the slot options with respect to the slot name, and the value of the slot option with respect to the name of the slot option.
2018-03-08T15:23:08Z jcowan: well, except that the value remains on the same line if it is thin
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2018-03-08T15:23:26Z beach: Pierpa: In that case, nothing will change.  But when the slot name has many characters in it, and when the initform is complicated, then something better could be done than what Emacs does.
2018-03-08T15:23:42Z Pierpa: Sure
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2018-03-08T15:24:56Z Shinmera: beach: yes
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2018-03-08T15:25:53Z Shinmera: beach: I generally avoid doing it, but only because the cost of fixing the indentation on a change is too high. If the editor could automate it, then that would fall away.
2018-03-08T15:26:11Z jmercouris: Shinmera: yeah, but anyone who doesn't have that editor has that same pain point
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2018-03-08T15:26:20Z jmercouris: that's why it is generally bad practice
2018-03-08T15:26:21Z beach: Shinmera: It gets complicated then, because you may have one line that says `x very-long-value-for-that-very-short-name' and one line that says `very-long-name-for-a-really-short-value y'
2018-03-08T15:26:28Z Shinmera: jmercouris: same for everything else beach is doing right now
2018-03-08T15:26:36Z jmercouris: Shinmera: fair enough
2018-03-08T15:26:51Z Shinmera: beach: Yeah, plus it might be desired in some contexts, and undesired in others.
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2018-03-08T15:27:23Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, but it might be possible to give a choice.  I'll think about it.
2018-03-08T15:27:40Z beach: Shinmera: It is definitely nice, but it has to be automatic as you pointed out.
2018-03-08T15:27:50Z Shinmera: beach: The column aligning would also be helpful for things like a series of let bindings or defvars, etc.
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2018-03-08T15:30:21Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, I agree.  But again, because of the risk of significantly longer lines when columns are aligned, it has to be a choice.
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2018-03-08T15:31:28Z beach: jmercouris: If we do nothing better than the lowest common denominator, we won't make any progress.
2018-03-08T15:32:40Z mrm: That's why we should always target the lcm instead.
2018-03-08T15:33:08Z beach: mrm: "target"?
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2018-03-08T15:37:14Z beach: Shinmera: I think an indentation command like that would have to be applied to a region containing lines with the same number of "things" in each one, except possibly for terminating comments.
2018-03-08T15:37:34Z jmercouris: beach: yes, maybe have it as an option with a compatibility mode
2018-03-08T15:37:43Z jmercouris: beach: I assume you are planning on climacs being configurable
2018-03-08T15:38:05Z beach: jmercouris: Duh, it's written in Common Lisp.  And it is written by me.
2018-03-08T15:38:22Z jmercouris: Just a thought for easier adoption/less friction in teams
2018-03-08T15:38:46Z jmercouris: I get that it is still kind of catering to the lowest common denominator, but it will help ease the transition, assuming climacs may one day be the dominant ediitor
2018-03-08T15:38:54Z jmercouris: for lisp at least
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2018-03-08T15:40:43Z beach: jmercouris: Writing two or more editors in one would be too hard for me.  So I don't think I will try any compatibility mode, neither for Emacs, for VIM, or for gedit.
2018-03-08T15:41:10Z jmercouris: well, maybe someone else can write it then on top of it :D
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2018-03-08T15:41:46Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-08T15:41:50Z beach: jmercouris: Again, I don't care if I am the only person using it.  Therefore, making it easier for others to adopt is not a priority.
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2018-03-08T15:43:13Z jdz: beach: For what it's worth I put slot options on their own lines.
2018-03-08T15:43:34Z beach: jdz: Ah, so you could use something like this, then?
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2018-03-08T15:45:39Z jdz: beach: Sorry, I have not read all of the backlog here, just looked at your paste link.  Not sure what you mean by "use something like this"?
2018-03-08T15:45:56Z jdz: Change the way Emacs displays DEFCLASS forms?
2018-03-08T15:46:11Z jdz: I would not want my editor to insert newlines by itself.
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2018-03-08T15:46:34Z jmercouris: beach: It just feels like it would be a shame since you've put so much effort
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2018-03-08T15:46:46Z jmercouris: that's all I'm saying
2018-03-08T15:46:50Z jdz: Unless breaking into lines is fully automatic and is applied everywhere.
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2018-03-08T15:48:40Z jdz: http://lpaste.net/363285
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2018-03-08T15:49:26Z jdz: That's with current Emacs indenting.
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2018-03-08T15:50:33Z beach: jdz: Right.  No automatic newlines.  Just better indentation for options.
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2018-03-08T15:51:11Z beach: jmercouris: Thanks.  But my effort is compensated by papers that explain the innovative parts of what I write.
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2018-03-08T15:51:52Z jdz: I don't remember having multiline or long initforms, but I'd still initform code on the same line as the :initform keyword.
2018-03-08T15:52:10Z beach: jdz: Then you wouldn't notice any difference.
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2018-03-08T15:52:46Z jcowan: I also am writing an editor primarily for personal use, though perhaps some other people will like it
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2018-03-08T15:53:27Z beach: jcowan: What technique does it use in order to indent Common Lisp code, and what information does it present the Common Lisp programmer with? :)
2018-03-08T15:53:28Z jcowan: It will have many non-features, such as syntax coloring, full-screen editing, single-keystroke commands, and so on.
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2018-03-08T15:53:58Z jcowan: I am currently working out the command set, and haven't decided on an implementation language yet
2018-03-08T15:54:18Z jcowan: Oh, programmability is another major non-feature
2018-03-08T15:54:54Z beach: jcowan: I was talking about the user being a Common Lisp programmer who would want to see the editor help with information about the program.
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2018-03-08T15:55:05Z beach: ... not about the implementaiton.
2018-03-08T15:55:09Z beach: implementation.
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2018-03-08T15:55:28Z jcowan: (I always make that mistake too)
2018-03-08T15:55:40Z beach: Heh.
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2018-03-08T15:55:47Z jcowan: The most interesting thing will be how to do parenthesis-bouncing in the context of CLI editing
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2018-03-08T15:57:07Z jcowan: I currently use the ex mode of vim, and will stay fairly close to that, but I also intend to add the structural regular expressions of sam, and I do drop into vi mode when I want to do paren-bouncing, so I want a replacement for that
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2018-03-08T16:22:10Z jmercouris: I'm having an interesting issue with s-xml-rpc
2018-03-08T16:22:42Z jmercouris: when I run the following in a standalone sbcl it works https://gist.github.com/8210dad39133fa1f45cb981969cfb3de
2018-03-08T16:22:51Z jmercouris: but when I run it in slime, the response hangs forever
2018-03-08T16:23:15Z jmercouris: this is obviously unacceptable, as I need to be able to test in slime, any idea why this might be?
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2018-03-08T16:23:27Z jmercouris: I tried changing the ports the server was listening on, but no luck
2018-03-08T16:23:39Z _death: doesn't hang for me.. what is your swank:*communication-style*
2018-03-08T16:23:53Z jmercouris: :spawn
2018-03-08T16:24:04Z _death: try debugging it then
2018-03-08T16:24:09Z jmercouris: to clarify, the server is started
2018-03-08T16:24:16Z jmercouris: when I make a request to the server, it doesn't give a response
2018-03-08T16:24:24Z jmercouris: that is when it hangs, no errors signaled or anything
2018-03-08T16:24:34Z jmercouris: *inferior-lisp* also doesn't have any useful output
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2018-03-08T16:24:49Z _death: look at the source, trace functions, log stuff..
2018-03-08T16:25:34Z flip214: jmercouris: can you get a thread list at that point, and look where they're hanging?
2018-03-08T16:25:36Z jmercouris: the thing is, the source does work
2018-03-08T16:26:28Z jmercouris: I can try, I assume something like (bt:all-threads)?
2018-03-08T16:27:02Z _death: C-c C-x t also works
2018-03-08T16:27:30Z jmercouris: _death: that is new and very useful for me
2018-03-08T16:27:30Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-03-08T16:27:39Z jmercouris: ok let me try sending the request now
2018-03-08T16:27:47Z jmercouris: does *slime-threads* update or must I invoke "g"? or something?
2018-03-08T16:27:56Z _death: "g"
2018-03-08T16:28:44Z jmercouris: all are shown as still "Running"
2018-03-08T16:29:00Z _death: you can also attach a debugger.. `C-h m' to see functionality
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2018-03-08T16:31:26Z jmercouris: ah, very interesting, so it signals a restart
2018-03-08T16:31:34Z jmercouris: I mean interrupt
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2018-03-08T16:33:44Z jmercouris: maybe I'll extend the library to use a persistent usocket connection anyway
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2018-03-08T16:33:59Z jmercouris: kind of goes against the xml-rpc protocol, but it's quite a loose definition
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2018-03-08T16:38:25Z _death: I liked the s-libraries when I started writing lisp.. apparently he writes smalltalk now
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2018-03-08T16:49:28Z whoman: _death: what is/were s-libraries ?
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2018-03-08T16:53:36Z jmercouris: I think they are libs that start with the prefix s- by some common author
2018-03-08T16:53:42Z jmercouris: s-xml-rpc being an example of one of them
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2018-03-08T16:54:26Z jmercouris: I think: Sven Van Caekenberghe
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2018-03-08T17:49:06Z whoman: jmercouris: ah cool, thanks
2018-03-08T17:49:35Z whoman: jmercouris: btw, i wanted to ask you for a week or two, what project you were working on? i cant remember what you said about it exactly but it sounded very cool
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2018-03-08T18:32:36Z jmercouris: whoman: I am working on next-browser https://github.com/next-browser/next
2018-03-08T18:33:34Z jmercouris: right now I am making a very deep changing removing the FFI by implementing a server/client interface between a lisp core and a "dumb" gui frontend
2018-03-08T18:33:40Z jmercouris: s/changing/change
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2018-03-08T23:22:14Z fouric: Is there a way to get a bit more detail about *what* is taking up all that space in a SBCL (or any other implementation, really) core?
2018-03-08T23:22:37Z fouric: If there isn't, then any advice for writing a tool that does so?
2018-03-08T23:23:31Z pjb: (room t) ?
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2018-03-08T23:24:55Z fouric: ...oh.
2018-03-08T23:24:59Z fouric: Thank you.
2018-03-08T23:25:53Z rme: ccl has (ccl:heap-utilization) which can sometimes be interesting
2018-03-08T23:27:47Z fouric: Ooh, I'll check that out. I was installing Roswell anyway. Thanks!
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2018-03-08T23:57:25Z attila_lendvai: fouric: if you get to that point then there are even path-to-root functions on some implementation that can tell you about a specific object what is holding it from garbage collection
2018-03-08T23:57:25Z Colleen: attila_lendvai: frgo said at 2018.03.07 22:35:24: I just pulled from dev and now I see some strange messages regarding "git submodules" - please see https://gist.github.com/dg1sbg/ccebad1c7702fe6a359c344bce50368c - How d I deal with those? Any idea what I am doing wrong? Thanks for looking into this.
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2018-03-09T00:02:31Z fouric: attila_lendvai: no way, that's dope af
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2018-03-09T00:03:21Z fouric: Do you have any particular links you can give me? All my searches are just yielding normal list-traversal functions
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2018-03-09T00:03:37Z attila_lendvai: fouric: there's something new in sbcl that I haven't seen, iirc in sb-introspect, and a few years ago we wrote our own in hu.dwim.debug (also sbcl specific, but probably somewhat bitrotten by now)
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2018-03-09T00:05:22Z attila_lendvai: fouric: seems to be this one: SB-EXT::GC-AND-SEARCH-ROOTS
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2018-03-09T00:06:56Z fouric: Oh! Thanks!
2018-03-09T00:07:07Z fouric was abuot to start grepping through all the symbols in SB-INTROSPECT
2018-03-09T00:08:18Z attila_lendvai: fouric: actually, I think this is the more public API: SB-INTROSPECT:MAP-ROOT
2018-03-09T00:08:24Z fouric: Hm, undefined function
2018-03-09T00:08:33Z fouric: oh thanks again
2018-03-09T00:08:36Z attila_lendvai: fouric: the way to find it: (apropos "root")
2018-03-09T00:09:48Z fouric: !
2018-03-09T00:09:53Z fouric: I didn't know that that function existed!
2018-03-09T00:10:15Z attila_lendvai: scratch that, map-root seems to do something else. no idea what inspired its name, though...
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2018-03-09T00:16:07Z fouric: sb-ext::gc-and-search-roots is not defined
2018-03-09T00:16:12Z fouric: i wonder if my sbcl is too old?
2018-03-09T00:16:20Z Bike: i think it's a rpretty recent feature
2018-03-09T00:16:54Z fouric: Hm, I'll try getting the latest, then.
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2018-03-09T00:22:10Z Xach: fouric: how old is yours?
2018-03-09T00:24:13Z fouric: 1.3.14.debian
2018-03-09T00:25:33Z Xach: well, that is not *so* old
2018-03-09T00:26:55Z fouric: Old enough, apparently.
2018-03-09T00:26:57Z fouric: :/
2018-03-09T00:27:11Z fouric finds the function in 1.4.5
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2018-03-09T00:32:02Z Xach: 1.4.5 has a bug but 1.4.6 will fix it
2018-03-09T00:32:51Z smokeink: what bug
2018-03-09T00:33:41Z whoman: lady
2018-03-09T00:34:25Z Xach: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1754128
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2018-03-09T01:27:31Z trocado: Hi! I wonder if there's a simple way to tell split-sequence not to split sub-strings.
2018-03-09T01:27:51Z trocado: For example: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\Space "a b \"cde fgh\"")
2018-03-09T01:27:59Z Xach: trocado: no
2018-03-09T01:29:00Z trocado: ok, I guess I'll build my own function then...
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2018-03-09T04:05:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-09T04:21:20Z Lycurgus: yello beach, do you use roswell?
2018-03-09T04:21:28Z beach: Nope, sorry.
2018-03-09T04:21:37Z Lycurgus: ah, np
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2018-03-09T04:22:09Z beach: I don't even know what it does.
2018-03-09T04:22:23Z Lycurgus: it's a cl pkg mgr
2018-03-09T04:22:23Z beach: ... though I have heard the name used here, of course.
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2018-03-09T04:22:32Z Lycurgus: which uses ql
2018-03-09T04:22:58Z Lycurgus: like gem or cabal or whatever
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2018-03-09T04:26:31Z Lycurgus: s/cabal/stack/ happy to say don't know what right thing for ruby is
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2018-03-09T04:28:37Z beach: "X is similar to Y (for some language that I don't use)" has never been an explanation that works for me.  But I guess when I have time, I'll go read the Roswell documentation.
2018-03-09T04:29:28Z beach: Same with questions like "Is there something similar to X (for some language that I don't use) in Common Lisp?".
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2018-03-09T04:30:48Z Lycurgus: are you a common lisp monoglot?
2018-03-09T04:31:21Z Lycurgus: nothing wrong with that
2018-03-09T04:31:32Z Lycurgus: uih
2018-03-09T04:32:08Z beach: I quit using other languages a few decades ago, so I missed pretty much ever language invented since then.
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2018-03-09T04:32:28Z beach: I did a bit of Python, just for teaching purposes, but that's it.
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2018-03-09T04:32:29Z Lycurgus: in ur wheelhouse you can do stuff
2018-03-09T04:32:31Z pjb: We could give you a comparison Lisp vs. FORTRAN if you wanted.
2018-03-09T04:32:37Z pjb: Have a look at FLPL ;-)
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2018-03-09T04:33:32Z Lycurgus: funny when you stepped out a bit it was to a not even but wanna be lisp like thing
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2018-03-09T04:49:54Z fouric: beach: Roswell makes the process of installing and using multiple different Lisp implementations a bit more convenient
2018-03-09T04:50:23Z fouric: It makes it easier to manage multiple *versions* of the same implementation easier, as well
2018-03-09T04:51:15Z fouric: ...and I've heard that it has features to make writing CL "scripts" easier, but I haven't tried that myself yet.
2018-03-09T04:53:40Z beach: fouric: Thanks.  Very good explanation!
2018-03-09T04:54:09Z rumbler3_: I still don't know what is inconvenient about symlinking the version of an implementation that you put in a place
2018-03-09T04:54:15Z fouric: Glad to be useful *to* #lisp for once :)
2018-03-09T04:54:22Z rumbler3_: i have a code folder, in it is the repo for sbcl and ccl
2018-03-09T04:54:43Z rumbler3_: I have a repo for ccl 1.11 and for ccl trunk
2018-03-09T04:55:30Z rumbler3_: I use c-u M-x slime to pick the version I want to run under emacs
2018-03-09T04:56:21Z rumbler3_: what part of this does roswell make easier?
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2018-03-09T04:57:35Z fouric: Downloading and installing new versions, for one.
2018-03-09T04:57:50Z fouric: ros install sbcl/1.2.0 vs. going to the SBCL web site and picking out that specific version.
2018-03-09T04:57:55Z beach: I am willing to believe that some people have more complicated requirements than I do, even though I don't fully understand those complications.
2018-03-09T04:57:58Z fouric: Very useful for debugging problems that only arise on a particular version.
2018-03-09T04:58:24Z fouric: Switching between implementations also takes fewer keystrokes and is more environment-independent than symlinks.
2018-03-09T04:58:55Z fouric: ros use sbcl/1.4.5 vs ln -s target $HOME/path/to/sbcl-1.4.5
2018-03-09T04:59:41Z fouric: ...and there's more that I can't test because I don't have roswell set up on my desktop yet.
2018-03-09T05:00:14Z fouric: ...and it does more than just that - it allows you to very quickly install both Quicklisp libraries and also arbitrary GitHub libraries (potentially not in Quicklisp)
2018-03-09T05:00:34Z fouric: ros install fouric/cl-termbox
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2018-03-09T05:00:43Z fouric: (don't actually install that library, it's broken, but the point stands)
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2018-03-09T05:01:29Z fouric: Marginally quicker core builds, too - ros build <something> (can't test) vs. loading the script and then (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...) etc.
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2018-03-09T10:49:27Z smokeink: does (ql;quickload :ironclad) yield this error for anyone else? COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<IRONCLAD-SOURCE-FILE "ironclad" "src" "ciphers" "blowfish"> tried with both sbcl 1.4.4 and 1.4.5
2018-03-09T10:53:27Z scymtym: smokeink: i routinely compile ironclad with SBCL as a benchmark for the compiler (shaved off another ~ 10 % runtime and consing yesterday). i didn't have see problems. in any case, the actual error is either above the one you mention or muffled by quicklisp. i suggest trying (asdf:load-system :ironclad :force t) and searching for the actual error
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2018-03-09T11:07:55Z smokeink: the trigger for that error turned out to be this (proclaim `(optimize (debug 0) (speed 3) (space 3) (safety 0))) in my .sbclrc
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2018-03-09T11:12:30Z scymtym: smokeink: do yourself a favor and don't use that policy as a default
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2018-03-09T12:01:47Z dxtr: So I've been reading and looking around for a while and I still feel I don't quite know what clack is
2018-03-09T12:01:59Z dxtr: Why would I use that?
2018-03-09T12:02:46Z Shinmera: it's an abstraction over HTTP server implementations.
2018-03-09T12:03:06Z Shinmera: you might want to use it if you have different concerns about the capabilities of the server in different settings.
2018-03-09T12:03:56Z dxtr: So if I "lock" my stuff to a specific http server then clack is practically useless?
2018-03-09T12:04:04Z Shinmera: Yes.
2018-03-09T12:04:12Z dxtr: Ah, alright
2018-03-09T12:04:28Z Shinmera: It also has some other stuff like middleware that offer some additional features, but I don't really know about that part.
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2018-03-09T12:06:38Z Shinmera: Also, disclaimer, I guess: I never used clack myself, I have my own way of doing things that I prefer.
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2018-03-09T13:59:45Z kolb: smokeink: yeah don't ever do that.
2018-03-09T14:00:25Z kolb: Your implementation should provide sane defaults
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2018-03-09T14:57:17Z jmercouris: what do people generally have in their sbclrc eclrc ccl-init files other than quicklisp?
2018-03-09T14:58:18Z Bike: i set print-length so circular structures don't hang the repl
2018-03-09T14:58:21Z Shinmera: I load a custom ASDF
2018-03-09T14:58:29Z Bike: and so that i don't accidentally print 50000 length arrays
2018-03-09T14:58:31Z jmercouris: also, what are the justifications for implementation providers to make something like an sb-ext rather than a standalone system?
2018-03-09T14:58:31Z Shinmera: and on sbcl set the source location
2018-03-09T14:58:32Z beach: An OPTIMIZE proclamation for debug 3 speed 0.
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2018-03-09T14:58:47Z jmercouris: beach: lol
2018-03-09T14:58:57Z beach: why is that funny?
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2018-03-09T14:59:14Z jmercouris: beach: I assume you were making a reference to the config above, if that is actually true, it is not as funny
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2018-03-09T14:59:31Z jmercouris: Bike: that's a good one, how do you set that?
2018-03-09T14:59:44Z Shinmera: (setf *print-circle* T)
2018-03-09T14:59:51Z Bike: (setf *print-length* 20) or so
2018-03-09T14:59:51Z jmercouris: Shinmera: thanks
2018-03-09T14:59:56Z jmercouris: no wait, now I'm not sure
2018-03-09T15:00:02Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, that's what I put in my .sbclrc.  Is that funny?
2018-03-09T15:00:10Z Bike: well, print circle is good too
2018-03-09T15:00:12Z jmercouris: beach: I said in the case that it *is* it is not funny
2018-03-09T15:00:19Z jmercouris: nvm, doesn't matter :D
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2018-03-09T15:00:39Z beach: Got it [I think].
2018-03-09T15:00:56Z Bike: sb-ext instead of standalone system, a lot of the extensions aren't standard or portable, for one
2018-03-09T15:01:18Z jmercouris: Bike: what are some of the reasons for that? what can make something non-portable?
2018-03-09T15:01:27Z jmercouris: including a c lib or something like that? or?
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2018-03-09T15:01:44Z Bike: well, for example, sb-ext has stuff for compare and swap
2018-03-09T15:01:54Z Bike: this requires compiler and runtime support
2018-03-09T15:02:00Z Bike: but isn't part of the language specification
2018-03-09T15:02:16Z jmercouris: ah, okay
2018-03-09T15:02:36Z jmercouris: so basically when you need to interface with the compiler in such a way not described in the spec, you have to make a non-portable extension
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2018-03-09T15:02:58Z jmercouris: or rather, in a way that is not possible based on the spec
2018-03-09T15:03:11Z jmercouris: e.g. a non-composable problem (I think that's how you'd say that)
2018-03-09T15:03:26Z Bike: i don't know what composability is
2018-03-09T15:04:03Z jmercouris: I'm trying to say that "given x functions we have in our posession, we have a set of things we can do", what we are trying to do, is outside of that set, so therefore we must expand "x"
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2018-03-09T15:05:57Z whoman: try prolog
2018-03-09T15:06:11Z whoman: for solving those kind of situations
2018-03-09T15:07:08Z Bike: anyway, and if implementations offer extensions in a uniform enough way you can have another library that wraps all of those and acts as a portable extension
2018-03-09T15:07:14Z Bike: like bordeaux threads
2018-03-09T15:07:36Z jmercouris: so, in a way, the language spec can be extended if enough people agree on it, without actually changing the spec
2018-03-09T15:07:40Z jmercouris: in an "official" capacity
2018-03-09T15:07:58Z cage_: hello, given that the original author orphaned it i have set up a cl-colors repository at https://notabug.org/cage/cl-colors
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2018-03-09T15:08:28Z cage_: i hope to became the new maintainer eventually, patch and testing are welcome of course :)
2018-03-09T15:09:11Z Bike: right
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2018-03-09T15:13:40Z oldCrisis: I am 27, Is it too late to learn lisp as my first language. I have a little experience with programming before, nothing ground breaking just some simple programs
2018-03-09T15:14:13Z beach: Not too late.
2018-03-09T15:16:05Z beach: If you need advice on what to install and what material to read, you can ask here.
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2018-03-09T15:16:51Z oldCrisis: beach: I did setup SBCL and emacs. And found out the Practical CL book
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2018-03-09T15:17:01Z beach: Then you are all set.
2018-03-09T15:17:15Z oldCrisis: ok thanks
2018-03-09T15:17:22Z beach: You can even ask Common Lisp questions here if you like.
2018-03-09T15:17:46Z beach: It is not a Common Lisp support channel, but newbies are tolerated as long as they show a willingness to improve.
2018-03-09T15:18:07Z beach: For really basic questions, there is #clnoobs.
2018-03-09T15:18:17Z oldCrisis: One last question Does Practical CL book contains exercise? Because I cannot learn without exercises
2018-03-09T15:18:30Z oldCrisis: Oh, what lisp channel is this?
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2018-03-09T15:18:59Z beach: It is a channel for discussions among people who are interested in Common Lisp.
2018-03-09T15:19:12Z oldCrisis: ok go it
2018-03-09T15:19:24Z beach: The discussions can be quite detailed sometimes.
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2018-03-09T15:19:38Z beach: I would think PCL has exercises.  Let me check...
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2018-03-09T15:20:53Z beach: Hmm, no I guess not.
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2018-03-09T15:21:10Z oldCrisis: sad
2018-03-09T15:21:30Z beach: There should be plenty of exercises on the net to work on.
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2018-03-09T15:22:02Z oldCrisis: ok i'll find them. thank you for your help :)
2018-03-09T15:22:08Z beach: Anytime.
2018-03-09T15:22:09Z Xach: No, it does not.
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2018-03-09T15:23:23Z Xach: (sorry for the lag. network)
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2018-03-09T15:30:20Z _death: if it's your first language, maybe gentle is better
2018-03-09T15:30:29Z _death: ah, gone
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2018-03-09T15:54:44Z jmercouris: beach: pcl has exercises at the end of the book
2018-03-09T15:54:52Z beach: Oh. Sorry.
2018-03-09T15:55:18Z jmercouris: beach: they are titled "Practical: <some topic>"
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2018-03-09T15:55:36Z jmercouris: like "Practical: Parsinb Binary Files"
2018-03-09T15:55:40Z beach: I'll try to remember.
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2018-03-09T16:10:20Z Shinmera: They're not really exercises, since the book goes through the implementation process.
2018-03-09T16:10:30Z Shinmera: Rather than asking you to do something on your own.
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2018-03-09T16:22:33Z jmercouris: They are exercises with solutions, it doesn't make them *not* exercises
2018-03-09T16:23:38Z Shinmera: There is never a singular problem statement or anything of the sort. It's a tutorial, not an exercise.
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2018-03-09T16:27:42Z jmercouris: Shinmera: "Practical: make a spam filter", that's your exercise and problem statement
2018-03-09T16:27:54Z jmercouris: then it is subdivided into smaller problems that it interactively helps you solve
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2018-03-09T16:30:36Z jmercouris: it's not a language reference, nor is it a tutorial on lisp, it is what I can only describe as an exercise
2018-03-09T16:34:29Z whoman: practical - practice
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2018-03-09T19:38:20Z dxtr: So do anyone here have experience with snooze? I don't understand the routing here really
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2018-03-09T20:39:51Z fouric: Does anyone know of a (library containing a) function that allows me to "invert" the order of nested calls so that they read left-to-right?
2018-03-09T20:40:19Z fouric: e.g. (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'1+ foo)) -> (lrread (x foo) (mapcar #'1+ x) (reduce #'+ x))
2018-03-09T20:40:37Z Bike: ...what?
2018-03-09T20:40:59Z Bike: (let ((x (mapcar #'1+ foo))) (reduce #'+ x)), like that?
2018-03-09T20:41:35Z fouric: but for n things instead of 2
2018-03-09T20:42:09Z fouric: Shinmera: do you have a few minutes to elaborate on your toplists repo, or should i just read the code
2018-03-09T20:42:28Z Bike: sounds more like a compiler than a macro, heh.
2018-03-09T20:42:58Z fouric: Erm, macro, not function, sorry.
2018-03-09T20:43:08Z fouric: You *should* be able to make it with a macro, though, right?
2018-03-09T20:43:20Z fouric: ...and I suppose that that means that you don't know of an already-existing one?
2018-03-09T20:43:20Z Bike: well, yes, but it would be a pretty complicated one.
2018-03-09T20:43:31Z Bike: i don't, no. other than compilers.
2018-03-09T20:43:47Z Bike: it would be okay to write yourself if you knew you only had function calls.
2018-03-09T20:43:55Z Bike: and literals or symbols. but that's hardly ever the case.
2018-03-09T20:43:59Z Bike: why do you want this?
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2018-03-09T20:44:51Z fouric: I get the feeling that for some types of deeply-nested function+macro forms, it would be easier to read left-to-right than the other way around.
2018-03-09T20:45:17Z fouric: I was specifically thinking of dataflow programming - not that I have any experience with it, but it doesn't hurt to look around.
2018-03-09T20:45:19Z Bike: maybe, but that's generally a rewrite i'd do manually
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2018-03-09T20:46:16Z Bike: i only know dataflow programming when you actually draw it out instead of doing it textually
2018-03-09T20:46:18Z Bike: like puredata
2018-03-09T20:46:19Z fouric: Part of it might be that I don't have enough experience to know that this isn't really something that I need - but I'd at least like to find out for myself.
2018-03-09T20:48:00Z fouric: Why would forms other than function calls, literals, and symbols (are literals and symbols called "forms"?) interfere with the making of such a macro?
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2018-03-09T20:48:27Z Bike: a "form" is anything you evaluate.
2018-03-09T20:48:51Z fouric: OK, good.
2018-03-09T20:49:04Z Bike: well, how i understand your conception of this function is you give it a form, and it rewrites it to avoid nesting.
2018-03-09T20:49:31Z Bike: so (foo (bar) (baz)) becomes (let* ((a (bar)) (b (baz))) (foo a b)) or so.
2018-03-09T20:50:15Z Bike: nesting is easy to understand with function calls; the elements of the cdr of the call are evaluated normally, so you can rewrite recursively and such
2018-03-09T20:50:23Z Bike: special operators, however, have more complicated syntax
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2018-03-09T20:51:23Z fouric: Oh, sorry, I wasn't very precise.
2018-03-09T20:52:23Z fouric: I was envisioning a macro where you give it a syntax like (llread (x out-sym) (foo x) (bar x) (baz x)) and it gets expanded to be nested: (baz (bar (foo out-sym)))
2018-03-09T20:52:43Z Bike: oh. oh oh oh
2018-03-09T20:52:48Z Bike: so i have it backwards
2018-03-09T20:52:59Z fouric: yes, but that's because i'm tired and derpy lol
2018-03-09T20:53:32Z Bike: and llread means x is bound to the previous result, except for the first one
2018-03-09T20:53:36Z Bike: that's pretty easy
2018-03-09T20:55:01Z fouric: I think that I could write it in a reasonable about of time - but it feels like this is something that might be desirable enough to be included in a utility library like Alexandria - but it isn't in Alexandria, and I don't know how to describe it in such a way that my search engine can find it.
2018-03-09T20:55:04Z fouric: ...hence the question.
2018-03-09T20:55:20Z Bike: mm. no, i don't think it exists. there is a similar macro in uiop somewhere, though...
2018-03-09T20:55:42Z Bike: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/utility.lisp#L106-L109 let me find an example
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2018-03-09T20:56:21Z fouric: Oh! Is this Fare's NEST, or a different one?
2018-03-09T20:56:27Z Bike: it's fare's, yes
2018-03-09T20:57:20Z fouric: OK, cool - not exactly what I need, but I didn't know that it was in UIOP, and I might need it some day, so thanks!
2018-03-09T20:57:25Z fouric bookmarks
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2018-03-09T20:57:53Z Bike: (defmacro llread ((name initial) &body forms) (if (null forms) initial `(llread (,name (let ((,name ,initial)) ,(first forms))) ,@rest forms)) or something
2018-03-09T20:58:12Z fouric: Ooh, this looks promising!
2018-03-09T20:58:25Z fouric: thank you ty
2018-03-09T20:59:13Z Bike: the expansion isn't quite as nice, of course
2018-03-09T21:00:04Z fouric: Right, but that's what I get for being a lazy bum and not writing it by hand :P
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2018-03-09T21:02:11Z fouric: Nice, it works perfectly. Thank you!
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2018-03-09T21:06:19Z fouric: Erm, ignore that second-to-last message, but keep the last one.
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2018-03-09T21:11:12Z _death: there are those arrow libraries, and also see https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/malleability.txt
2018-03-09T21:12:31Z fouric: That is an excellent post.
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2018-03-09T21:15:05Z fouric: I'm beginning to realize that one of Lisp's greatest strengths is the ability to create a DSL that allows you to express your ideas in the most clear or concise way possible.
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2018-03-09T21:15:51Z _death: right, and you need a good taste so that what's clear to you won't be a total mess to others
2018-03-09T21:16:02Z fouric: ...and that's the hard part, it seems.
2018-03-09T21:16:30Z fouric: It feels like Lisp makes programming even more like art by removing many of the mechanical restrictions that other languages have.
2018-03-09T21:16:55Z fouric is a bad artist
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2018-03-09T21:26:11Z Shinmera: fouric: Hm?
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2018-03-09T21:30:38Z fouric: What is a "top list"? Literally just a list of things that one finds cool?
2018-03-09T21:31:07Z Shinmera: The idea is you can create lists of items, and people can sort them according to how they rate them, then compare how they rated things.
2018-03-09T21:31:31Z fouric: _death: https://adeht.org/ is very, very interesting to me. I don't suppose that you know of any similar sites or pages collecting articles/posts like those?
2018-03-09T21:31:44Z Shinmera: It's something I did a while ago to discuss which games me and my friends liked best of 2017, and I thought it might make a nice thing to have in general.
2018-03-09T21:31:48Z fouric: Shinmera: Oh! That's *much* cooler than I was imagining!
2018-03-09T21:32:03Z fouric: ...I need this.
2018-03-09T21:32:14Z Shinmera: Sure, then wait a few more days and you can have it.
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2018-03-09T21:32:44Z fouric: (sorry, not trying to shove you into making it easy for me to use - I'm happy to wait, and I would try to contribute myself if I had a bit more time)
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2018-03-09T21:33:14Z Shinmera: It'll be publicly available on tymoon.eu like everything else I do, so
2018-03-09T21:33:23Z fouric: Thank you sir :)
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2018-03-09T21:41:09Z _death: fouric: there's yarchive.net but it's not Lisp specific
2018-03-09T21:41:47Z fouric: "Computers" "Electrical" "Physics" "Space" I'll take it
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2018-03-09T21:42:13Z fouric: Hm, http://yarchive.net/comp/lisp_support.html
2018-03-09T21:42:20Z fouric: There's one at least
2018-03-09T21:42:38Z _death: there's pjb's page http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html
2018-03-09T21:42:53Z whoman: fouric: terms of art; tried haskell? or rather, Prolog ?
2018-03-09T21:43:30Z fouric: I tried Haskell *briefly*, then gave up - Common Lisp is much easier, mechanically. Both those languages are still on my list of things to learn, but far enough down that it'll be a few decades until I get to them.
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2018-03-09T21:43:48Z _death: fouric: and of course there's xach's archives, https://www.xach.com/lisp/
2018-03-09T21:44:04Z aeth: fouric: In terms of art, have you tried Piet? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet
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2018-03-09T21:44:14Z fouric: _death: ahhh thank you
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2018-03-09T21:44:24Z fouric: aeth: nope! I haven't even heard of it *clicks*
2018-03-09T21:44:49Z fouric: oh loooool
2018-03-09T21:44:52Z fouric: that's amusing
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2018-03-09T21:46:55Z aeth: I think the only language more expressive than Lisp, and in a very different way, is assembly. There, you can do literally whatever you want, and probably very efficiently, although not portably. (And C is not sufficient portable assembly.)
2018-03-09T21:47:17Z _death: Lisp is sufficiently portable assembly :)
2018-03-09T21:47:30Z aeth: Assembly fairly directly translates to/from s-expressions, too, so it probably wouldn't be too hard to give it real macros. It already has real functions.
2018-03-09T21:47:46Z Bike: some kind of "macro assembler", you say
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2018-03-09T21:48:09Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/5ec259ef473b982898a3c5e36b21b1cd
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2018-03-09T21:48:19Z _death: compare this solution to the one given in C in the first link
2018-03-09T21:48:51Z fouric: Hm, we may have differing notions of "expressive".
2018-03-09T21:49:01Z fouric: Assembly is certainly not concise.
2018-03-09T21:49:08Z aeth: _death: All we need is more languages with define-vop so someone can write a define-vop portability library.
2018-03-09T21:49:20Z aeth: fouric: Everything is concise when you apply enough macros and functions, though.
2018-03-09T21:49:42Z aeth: CL isn't a particularly concise language if you take away the macros (including the built-in macros)
2018-03-09T21:49:53Z aeth: Iteration would be done through tagbody and go!
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2018-03-09T21:50:37Z aeth: tagbody and go can fairly directly be translated into asm. Just "namespace" the tags to mimic the contained goto effect.
2018-03-09T21:51:39Z Bike: except go out of a function.
2018-03-09T21:52:18Z Bike: and unwind protect and special bindings
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2018-03-09T21:58:05Z fouric: Yeah, but if you remove macros, it's no longer Lisp.
2018-03-09T21:59:33Z aeth: fouric: My point is that with asm, you can trivially add Lisp-style macros and then use Lisp-style macros to write Lisp-style abstractions (although you're working with registers instead of lexically scoped variables and special variables)
2018-03-09T21:59:53Z aeth: I'm not sure there are any languages where it's that easy.
2018-03-09T22:00:21Z whoman: list processing? s-expressions? there are a few aspects at work here.
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2018-03-09T22:01:16Z aeth: whoman: You'd have to write the macro system in another language instead of directly in asm (unless you first built up all of the abstractions necessary, which would be a waste of time because CL exists)
2018-03-09T22:01:26Z _death: I also found http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/urscheme/compiler.scm.html a very neat example, starting from very little ending with a working compiler
2018-03-09T22:01:29Z aeth: Although, nothing stops you from writing CL in asm except time.
2018-03-09T22:01:55Z aeth: There's no mismatch you'd get with high level languages.
2018-03-09T22:02:03Z aeth: No hacky workarounds.
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2018-03-09T22:05:22Z _death: I note that this latter example doesn't define macros..
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2018-03-09T22:42:09Z pjb: aeth: well, writing lisp (or anything) in assembly is rather easy and fast: you just need to implement a few "primitive" functions and assembler macros, and use them systematically.  It may be syntactically inconvenient, but you can achieve a higher level of abstraction quickly and easily enough.
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2018-03-09T23:17:02Z alandipert: _death your day 5 asm solution is awesome, thanks for sharing
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2018-03-09T23:42:58Z _death: alandipert: it's merely a "port" of the C solution
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2018-03-09T23:49:48Z alandipert: _death still :-)
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2018-03-10T04:39:00Z sigjuice: any recommendations on code to read and learn from that makes good use of CLOS?
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2018-03-10T06:09:27Z beach: sigjuice: I am pretty proud of Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2018-03-10T06:09:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-10T06:23:27Z sigjuice: beach thanks! I will check it out.
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2018-03-10T07:48:32Z dtornabene: good morning
2018-03-10T07:48:50Z beach: Hello dtornabene.
2018-03-10T07:48:54Z siraben: Good afternoon
2018-03-10T07:48:59Z dtornabene: hey there
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2018-03-10T07:49:36Z siraben: Has anyone created a GUI application in a Lisp?
2018-03-10T07:49:50Z Shinmera: sure
2018-03-10T07:49:52Z beach: Of course.
2018-03-10T07:49:57Z siraben: I've written some Racket, but what about cross platform?
2018-03-10T07:50:17Z Shinmera: By "platform" you mean the OS, or?
2018-03-10T07:50:21Z siraben: Yes
2018-03-10T07:50:24Z Shinmera: Sure.
2018-03-10T07:50:27Z siraben: So for me it was racket on macOS
2018-03-10T07:50:35Z beach: siraben: Racket is not Common Lisp.
2018-03-10T07:50:44Z siraben: Oh this is the Common Lisp channel lol
2018-03-10T07:50:45Z beach: siraben: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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2018-03-10T07:50:55Z siraben: What library did you use?
2018-03-10T07:50:56Z siraben: Cello?
2018-03-10T07:51:07Z Shinmera: I used Qtools.
2018-03-10T07:51:14Z beach: I used McCLIM.
2018-03-10T07:51:58Z siraben: Any Common Lisp tools for iOS?
2018-03-10T07:52:39Z Shinmera: There's MOCL, I suppose.
2018-03-10T07:53:10Z siraben: Oh but it's proprietary
2018-03-10T07:53:11Z jackdaniel: siraben: ecl is known to work on iOS (but requires some effort to build things, and you don't have access to c compiler - only bytecodes)
2018-03-10T07:53:29Z jackdaniel: lispworks works on iOS too (propietary)
2018-03-10T07:54:35Z siraben: What are the benefits of functional programming in real world applications?
2018-03-10T07:54:52Z siraben: I use it for meta programming and theoretical interest so far
2018-03-10T07:55:10Z Shinmera: Well being able to pass functions around is pretty handy
2018-03-10T07:55:11Z jackdaniel: easier testability. CL is not particularily functional, so answers here won't be very representative with this regard
2018-03-10T07:55:45Z siraben: Recommended books?
2018-03-10T07:55:50Z siraben: I did SICP, but that uses Scheme
2018-03-10T07:55:56Z siraben: I heard of Land of Lisp
2018-03-10T07:56:02Z Shinmera: minion: tell siraben about PCL
2018-03-10T07:56:03Z minion: siraben: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-03-10T07:56:28Z siraben: Wow thanks Shinmera!
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2018-03-10T07:57:38Z siraben: What are some things that can be easily done in CL that aren't as easy in Scheme?
2018-03-10T07:57:50Z beach: Object orientation.
2018-03-10T07:57:52Z siraben: Scheme has a macro system, I heard CL's is better?
2018-03-10T07:57:53Z beach: CLOS.
2018-03-10T07:57:54Z siraben: Oh the CLOS
2018-03-10T07:57:55Z Shinmera: (let ((foo 0)) (foo foo)) :^)
2018-03-10T07:58:17Z beach: (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft)
2018-03-10T07:59:27Z Shinmera: Does scheme have packages these days?
2018-03-10T07:59:31Z siraben: Is SBCL still the way to go?
2018-03-10T07:59:32Z siraben: No
2018-03-10T07:59:37Z siraben: Scheme is a very minimal language
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2018-03-10T07:59:49Z siraben: Well, Racket has packages and is Scheme-like
2018-03-10T08:00:05Z siraben: Or should I use CLISP
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2018-03-10T08:00:24Z Shinmera: SBCL is good.
2018-03-10T08:00:39Z Shinmera: You might also be interested in https://portacle.github.io/
2018-03-10T08:01:02Z siraben: Scheme has a standard (like R6RS), what is the equivalent in Common Lisp?
2018-03-10T08:01:14Z siraben: Thanks Shinmera
2018-03-10T08:01:16Z Shinmera: The CL ANSI standard.
2018-03-10T08:01:32Z Shinmera: Though we typically use the hyperspec
2018-03-10T08:01:34Z Shinmera: clhs
2018-03-10T08:01:42Z Shinmera: No link? Come on.
2018-03-10T08:01:47Z Shinmera: ::look up clhs
2018-03-10T08:01:48Z Colleen: Common lisp hyperspec (tm) http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2018-03-10T08:01:55Z siraben: What do you use CL for?
2018-03-10T08:02:10Z Shinmera: Everything I feel like doing, pretty much.
2018-03-10T08:02:25Z siraben: Production as well?
2018-03-10T08:02:33Z Shinmera: Well yea
2018-03-10T08:03:29Z siraben: What other programming languages do you know?
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2018-03-10T08:04:10Z Shinmera: C, C++, Java, JavaScript, Python, Bash, Rust, Haskell, and probably others that I forgot about.
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2018-03-10T08:05:44Z siraben: Shinmera thought of learning Clojure?
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2018-03-10T08:06:07Z Shinmera: Thought about, sure. So far there's little incentive though.
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2018-03-10T08:07:23Z Shinmera: Or in other words, I don't see anything I care about that Clojure would offer me over CL.
2018-03-10T08:09:44Z siraben: Integration with the JVM and Java libraries?
2018-03-10T08:09:53Z Shinmera: Got ABCL for that if I cared about it.
2018-03-10T08:10:04Z Shinmera: (I don't)
2018-03-10T08:10:08Z siraben: So CL has a large package system, which means you can make web servers and so on?
2018-03-10T08:10:13Z Shinmera: Sure.
2018-03-10T08:10:51Z siraben: What are you thoughts on the Land of Lisp?
2018-03-10T08:11:02Z Shinmera: I haven't read it, but some people like it.
2018-03-10T08:11:36Z patrixl: LoL is good to get started but it won't get you far
2018-03-10T08:11:57Z patrixl: it skips over the whole topic of organizing your code in files, packages, etc and doing actual development
2018-03-10T08:12:25Z patrixl: otherwise it's a fun book to get the basics and get excited about Lisp (if you aren't already ;)   )
2018-03-10T08:13:02Z jach[m]1: siraben: I'm about 100 pages from finishing LoL, I've enjoyed it but it's not very sticky. And skips over a lot I care about as an employed person in Blub. ;)
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2018-03-10T08:13:35Z patrixl: well lol
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2018-03-10T08:13:44Z patrixl: and hey everyone, been lurking a few days, just joining in the conversation now
2018-03-10T08:13:53Z siraben: Sorry I crashed
2018-03-10T08:13:55Z siraben: emacs
2018-03-10T08:15:56Z patrixl: thought you didn't like the comments about LoL ;)
2018-03-10T08:19:05Z jach[m]1: One of the things that made me go "I wish someone had shown me this back when I had learned a little scheme and thought I knew 'lisp'" is this small series of posts:
2018-03-10T08:19:05Z jach[m]1: http://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
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2018-03-10T08:20:32Z patrixl: thanks jach[m]1 , I'll read those too, I have a lot to learn still
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2018-03-10T08:23:54Z siraben: What was that Lisp website someone mentioned earlier?
2018-03-10T08:23:56Z siraben: I've lost the link
2018-03-10T08:24:04Z siraben: It had a chapter titled "Why Lisp"
2018-03-10T08:24:19Z Shinmera: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-03-10T08:24:29Z siraben: Ah, thanks!
2018-03-10T08:24:37Z patrixl: that's the one that really got me started with Lisp, good book
2018-03-10T08:24:50Z patrixl: (and got me started with emacs, too)
2018-03-10T08:25:32Z siraben: Wow Nice
2018-03-10T08:25:39Z siraben: nice*
2018-03-10T08:26:04Z siraben: Emacs was my go-to after learning Scheme, especially because paredit is just amazing when dealing with parens
2018-03-10T08:26:36Z patrixl: nice, and yeah paredit is a lifesaver
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2018-03-10T08:28:54Z patrixl: after spending a month coding lisp with emacs on a personal project, I went back to my work codebase in ruby and visual studio code and pulled quite a lot of hair out in frustration haha
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2018-03-10T08:44:57Z siraben: Omg there's been so many times when I use the Emacs keybindings outside emacs
2018-03-10T08:45:06Z siraben: Fortunately macOS allows me to use some of them
2018-03-10T08:45:17Z patrixl: yeah I was shocked when I discovered that
2018-03-10T08:45:18Z siraben: Like 'C-w' 'C-f' 'M-f' and so on
2018-03-10T08:45:24Z siraben: I didn't even notice
2018-03-10T08:45:31Z siraben: Until I tried 'C-<SPC>'
2018-03-10T08:45:44Z siraben: Or this one time I did 'C-x h'
2018-03-10T08:45:48Z patrixl: haha
2018-03-10T08:45:51Z siraben: Expecting it to select everything
2018-03-10T08:45:56Z siraben: Rip
2018-03-10T08:46:10Z siraben: I can't imagine using Windows accidentally with Emacs keybindings
2018-03-10T08:46:17Z siraben: Might break something lol
2018-03-10T08:46:21Z patrixl: you might end up accidentally installing Linux while doing that
2018-03-10T08:46:21Z patrixl: haha
2018-03-10T08:46:30Z siraben: 'M-x install-linux'
2018-03-10T08:47:22Z siraben: I love that feeling of when I wish Emacs could do something, then implementing it myself.
2018-03-10T08:47:39Z siraben: How do people put up with say, Microsoft Word or even their calculators!
2018-03-10T08:47:40Z patrixl: the annoying one is Outlook for Mac, it not only breaks some the usual macOS keybindings, it also maps ctrl-C etc to the copy paste
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2018-03-10T08:49:20Z pjb: siraben: have a look at https://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman
2018-03-10T08:57:11Z aeth: I accidentally use key bindings in Firefox all the time. It's not a big deal. Usually I just have to hit ESC to close the save page window that opens when I tried to search with C-s.
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2018-03-10T08:58:01Z aeth: In the terminal, thanks to readline and its many clones, I use Emacs keybindings outside of Emacs all of the time. (The biggest difference is what C-u does, afaik.)
2018-03-10T08:58:37Z siraben: Wow thanks pjb!
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2018-03-10T09:00:23Z siraben: I was shook when I used my friend's Windows machine and 'C-x C-f' didn't do what I thought it would
2018-03-10T09:01:10Z pjb: siraben: install emacs on MS-Windows, and it will do what it should.
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2018-03-10T09:02:51Z siraben: pjb: I am reminded of this: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpdngXQOkBI>
2018-03-10T09:02:56Z aeth: If only there was a program that actually did everything, unlike Emacs, which is too tied in its buffer-oriented ways and too burdened by its terminal-first legacy.
2018-03-10T09:03:26Z siraben: aeth: terminal-first?
2018-03-10T09:03:33Z aeth: Emacs gets you a lot of the way there, until you want to browse the web, view and edit images (although you can somewhat view them), open PDFs (although you it somewhat handles PDFs), etc.
2018-03-10T09:03:37Z siraben: aeth: Emacs can open PDFs, play songs, view webpages and so on
2018-03-10T09:03:59Z siraben: aeth: Well I don't know about image editing in Emacs
2018-03-10T09:04:05Z pjb: siraben: on my systems emacs is installed before linux.
2018-03-10T09:04:06Z siraben: aeth: Use something like GIMP
2018-03-10T09:04:09Z aeth: siraben: Emacs imo fails at anything visual, which is quite a lot of things.
2018-03-10T09:04:20Z aeth: siraben: Using external non-Emacs applications means learning another set of key bindings.
2018-03-10T09:04:26Z siraben: aeth: That's certainly true
2018-03-10T09:04:42Z pjb: aeth: you can do video editing with emacs.
2018-03-10T09:04:50Z aeth: Now, if only Emacs could replace Blender.
2018-03-10T09:04:52Z siraben: aeth: I never spent as much time learning keybindings as I did with Emacs
2018-03-10T09:05:03Z siraben: Blender + Emacs Key Bindings?
2018-03-10T09:05:07Z siraben: What an idea!
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2018-03-10T09:05:14Z siraben: 'M-x render'
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2018-03-10T09:06:10Z siraben: It really doesn't make much sense to use CMD+C or C-c for copy and the same for paste
2018-03-10T09:06:15Z aeth: pjb: You can do just about everything in Emacs (at least the X11 Emacs, which has additional features over the in-terminal Emacs), but it's not the best option for anything visual imo. Web browsing, image viewing, PDF viewing, etc. I've done them all, and Emacs's model is... limiting there.
2018-03-10T09:06:40Z aeth: pjb: I hope a CL Emacs takes that into account when there's a popular/serious one out there.
2018-03-10T09:06:43Z siraben: PDF viewing (even with `pdf-tools' installed) is still pretty slow IMO
2018-03-10T09:06:57Z aeth: I think it turns PDFs into images and then uses its image viewer, which is why it's slow and limiting.
2018-03-10T09:07:04Z siraben: aeth: I wonder what it would take to make the next Emacs
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2018-03-10T09:07:21Z siraben: Emacs devel. isn't slowing down, but there's a lot of holding on to old ways
2018-03-10T09:07:26Z aeth: siraben: Probably what I just said is what it would take.
2018-03-10T09:07:35Z siraben: aeth: Have you tried pdf-tools ?
2018-03-10T09:07:44Z aeth: Emacs is an app for everything, but there's a lot of things that you can't do without heavily rewriting how Emacs thinks about the world (i.e. never)
2018-03-10T09:08:25Z siraben: Or one could create an elisp to CL compiler, refactor the C code automatically and boom!
2018-03-10T09:08:50Z aeth: A good Emacs replacement in CL would essentially just be a CL app platform all in one application.
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2018-03-10T09:09:20Z siraben: aeth: What about https://github.com/google/xi-editor
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2018-03-10T09:10:34Z aeth: As soon as I saw Google I immediately knew it wasn't going to be what I was looking for because Google only uses CL when they acquire a company that uses CL (afaik).
2018-03-10T09:11:49Z siraben: Well ofc they aren't using CL
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2018-03-10T09:11:55Z aeth: The thing is, GNU Emacs is not a text editor. It's an integrated application platform. You're not going to replace it with a text editor. This also means that GNU Emacs itself is not a particularly good Emacs because it was never designed with web, PDF, PNG, IRC, etc., support in mind.
2018-03-10T09:11:59Z siraben: They're using Rust
2018-03-10T09:12:15Z siraben: What Xi is trying to achieve is a very fast, stable backend that's extensible
2018-03-10T09:12:38Z siraben: So I imagine the work would change from "let's rewrite Emacs" to "let's replace the core of Emacs"
2018-03-10T09:13:05Z siraben: But to allow Emacs to have a swappable "kernel" there needs to be better API documentation
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2018-03-10T09:14:24Z patrixl: gotta go, nice chatting all
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2018-03-10T09:15:13Z aeth: siraben: In its list of 7 design decisions, the only one I agree with is the front-end/back-end separation.
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2018-03-10T09:16:43Z aeth: And while high performance is a nice goal, the rise of Electron apps has shown that shipping a working product seems to be valued more than performance. Sadly.
2018-03-10T09:17:02Z aeth: Fortunately, that means you can use a lot more RAM than you used to get away with using, because you're still lightweight compared to Electron.
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2018-03-10T09:18:15Z siraben: aeth: Can you link to the 7 design decisions?
2018-03-10T09:18:35Z aeth: It's in the README.md at the bottom of your link
2018-03-10T09:18:40Z siraben: aeth: I hate Electron apps
2018-03-10T09:19:03Z siraben: aeth: It's like needing to ship a full-fledged browser for something that should be tiny
2018-03-10T09:20:34Z aeth: There's a middle ground between "rush to shipment and waste all of the resources" and "carefully craft an editor that can compete with vim" (I said vim because emacs's draw isn't that it can edit text). Reasonable optimizations, etc.
2018-03-10T09:20:40Z siraben: ah yes the 7 design decisions
2018-03-10T09:20:57Z aeth: I'm actually not sure if anyone's in the middle ground these days.
2018-03-10T09:21:04Z siraben: aeth: Rip "Emacs is an excellent OS, the only thing it lacks is a decent text editor"
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2018-03-10T09:21:24Z siraben: I think modularity is the way to go
2018-03-10T09:22:49Z siraben: aeth: Maybe because the whole mindset in developing Emacs in the first place wasn't "do one thing well" as is common in UNIX philosophy, but "let's do everything"
2018-03-10T09:23:38Z siraben: I'd like to see Common Lisp eventually succeed Elisp as the extension language
2018-03-10T09:24:44Z siraben: Because Elisp, although it's pretty good in what it does, doesn't have much value outside Emacs
2018-03-10T09:24:50Z aeth: CL's in a "mid tier" performance range, like Java, where you don't have to have a separate scripting language and core language.
2018-03-10T09:25:06Z aeth: GNU Emacs would probably be much faster if it was entirely in SBCL instead of slow elisp mixed with fast C.
2018-03-10T09:25:40Z siraben: What about executing elisp with a JIT compiler?
2018-03-10T09:25:51Z siraben: Certainty the work would be less than changing the language
2018-03-10T09:26:13Z aeth: They want to change to Guile, for some reason, even though CL isn't that different from Emacs Lisp.
2018-03-10T09:26:14Z pjb: aeth: even the terminal emacs. Nowadays emacs has plugins.
2018-03-10T09:26:24Z siraben: Packages*
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2018-03-10T09:27:00Z siraben: aeth: How long have you been using Emacs?
2018-03-10T09:27:05Z aeth: JITs aren't magic, though. I think they have two disadvantages: (1) RAM, (2) startup time
2018-03-10T09:27:17Z aeth: And #2 would make me hate Emacs. I don't leave it up for days at a time like some people
2018-03-10T09:27:19Z siraben: 1. GC 2. Compilation?
2018-03-10T09:27:39Z siraben: Same I restart it kinda frequently
2018-03-10T09:28:17Z siraben: I wonder if and how Emacs is going to stick around for the next 10, 20, maybe 50+ years?
2018-03-10T09:29:09Z aeth: I still have ed installed on my computer. So emacs and vim aren't going anywhere.
2018-03-10T09:29:18Z siraben: How old is ed?
2018-03-10T09:29:19Z pjb: siraben: as long as we edit programs by typing them.
2018-03-10T09:29:59Z siraben: pjb: I hope program synthesis will make debugging almost automatic in the future
2018-03-10T09:30:10Z pjb: siraben: now, take your favorite OS, and activate the dictaphone function. Have fun dictating a letter.  Bonus points to dictage a program (programming language of your choice!)
2018-03-10T09:30:17Z siraben: pjb: Maybe a brain-computer interface would eventually allow us to program at the speed of thought?
2018-03-10T09:30:37Z pjb: siraben: the problem is not the brain of the programmer: it's the brain of the listener.
2018-03-10T09:31:18Z pjb: The point here is that we need AI with much higher AIQ before they can understand us dictating a program.
2018-03-10T09:31:39Z siraben: pjb: You haven't seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI
2018-03-10T09:31:46Z pjb: Try pair programming to see what I mean.
2018-03-10T09:32:05Z siraben: pjb: I never have done pair programming
2018-03-10T09:32:15Z pjb: Try it.
2018-03-10T09:32:26Z siraben: pjb: There's no one in my high school to do it with
2018-03-10T09:32:28Z pjb: At least you'd have a natural IQ>100 as listener…
2018-03-10T09:33:07Z siraben: I haven't met people in person that can actually program more than FizzBuzz
2018-03-10T09:33:30Z siraben: It's sad but I hope going to uni will let me meet amazing programmers in person
2018-03-10T09:33:39Z siraben: pjb: Tell me about pair programming, how does it work?
2018-03-10T09:33:54Z aeth: siraben: 9/10 people in a computer science program do not care about computers or programming and are just there for the money
2018-03-10T09:34:04Z aeth: It's the new pre-law
2018-03-10T09:34:04Z pjb: siraben: it doesn't work.
2018-03-10T09:34:24Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_programming
2018-03-10T09:35:05Z siraben: The people (and the teacher teaching it) in my school's computer science course haven't heard about Lisp
2018-03-10T09:35:14Z siraben: Or even what it means to be "computable"
2018-03-10T09:35:26Z siraben: It's the basic stuff one can memorize and regurgitate
2018-03-10T09:35:38Z siraben: Programming is limited to Java
2018-03-10T09:37:18Z siraben: pjb: Have you done pair programming?
2018-03-10T09:37:34Z pjb: It occured.
2018-03-10T09:37:54Z siraben: pjb: Omg I literally can't wait to see my programming partner use Emacs
2018-03-10T09:37:59Z siraben: gg
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2018-03-10T09:39:10Z siraben: aeth: Are you speaking from experience?
2018-03-10T09:41:35Z pjb: Perhaps if one day siri can understand me…
2018-03-10T09:41:56Z siraben: Natural language processing is still a ways off
2018-03-10T09:42:09Z siraben: Try 'M-x doctor' to see the state of the art
2018-03-10T09:42:22Z aeth: siraben: Just look at the numbers of people enrolled in computer science departments over time.
2018-03-10T09:43:13Z aeth: (Then superimpose a graph of the NASDAQ over it.)
2018-03-10T09:43:27Z siraben: aeth: I'm considering to computer science in uni
2018-03-10T09:44:31Z siraben: Did you take/are taking computer science courses in uni?
2018-03-10T09:44:59Z siraben: My understanding is that it's full of people who /want/ to learn CS, but apparently that's not the case lol
2018-03-10T09:46:52Z aeth: In my personal experience taking classes in various subjects, the places where most of the undergraduates want to be there are the upper level courses that aren't marketable, like philosophy. (The lower level ones might fill general education requirements.)
2018-03-10T09:47:38Z siraben: Ooh philosophy
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2018-03-10T09:48:29Z siraben: And computer science is not one of those "I want to be here" classes?
2018-03-10T09:48:35Z siraben: Maybe it depends on the uni
2018-03-10T09:49:08Z aeth: Well, some universities probably has difficult enough computer science classes to get the same effect by the time that the upper level comp sci classes come.
2018-03-10T09:49:14Z aeth: s/has/have/
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2018-03-10T09:50:21Z aeth: Not like that's necessarily a good thing. Those universities probably teach a lot of useless C++ trivia.
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2018-03-10T09:50:54Z siraben: That's why I'm thinking of applying to pretty good universities
2018-03-10T09:50:55Z aeth: There are probably too many variables to generalize one experience, though.
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2018-03-10T09:51:20Z siraben: Brown, MIT, CMU, places with really good CS departments
2018-03-10T09:51:58Z siraben: Is the fizzbuzz-as-an-interview-question legend really true?
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2018-03-10T09:52:09Z siraben: Has anyone been asked fizzbuzz in an interview?
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2018-03-10T09:52:57Z jackdaniel: you'd be suprised how many people get filtered by such task
2018-03-10T09:53:21Z siraben: If you have even a week of programming experience I would imagine it would be trivial, right?
2018-03-10T09:53:50Z siraben: It just seems so crazy, you have CS majors that can't write fizzbuzz.
2018-03-10T09:54:32Z siraben: jackdaniel: How many?
2018-03-10T09:55:27Z Shinmera: More than we'd like
2018-03-10T09:56:18Z siraben: Fizzbuzz can be done so easily in Lisp
2018-03-10T09:57:05Z Shinmera: An exercise a friend of mine tried to solve recently has a really elegant solution in lisp, I think: Determine whether a list is a palindrome.
2018-03-10T09:57:26Z Shinmera: Which is just (equal list (reverse list))
2018-03-10T09:57:35Z siraben:  
2018-03-10T09:57:36Z siraben: (define (palindrome? x)
2018-03-10T09:57:36Z siraben:   (equal? x (reverse x)))
2018-03-10T09:57:39Z siraben: Yeah
2018-03-10T09:57:48Z siraben: What language did he use?
2018-03-10T09:58:06Z siraben: Even if you had to define `reverse', `equal?' it would still be easy
2018-03-10T09:58:12Z Shinmera: Sure.
2018-03-10T09:58:25Z aeth: You can mess up Fizzbuzz if you haven't used mod (or its equivalent) in a while.
2018-03-10T09:58:37Z siraben: It's % in C
2018-03-10T09:58:44Z siraben: That's true
2018-03-10T09:58:47Z aeth: You forget the API of everything after a while.
2018-03-10T09:58:56Z siraben: It's actually kinda unfair for some people
2018-03-10T09:59:03Z aeth: In this case, you'd probably reverse the conditional
2018-03-10T09:59:06Z siraben: So what other interview questions have been asked?
2018-03-10T10:00:42Z Shinmera: Everything under the sun, but hardly any of it is Lisp relevant (and thus off-topic)
2018-03-10T10:00:45Z aeth: Oh, right, I think % also has surprising precedence. Another way to mess up Fizzbuzz.
2018-03-10T10:01:04Z aeth: (And another advantage of CL.)
2018-03-10T10:01:41Z siraben: Other interview questions?
2018-03-10T10:01:47Z siraben: I heard of reversing a linked list
2018-03-10T10:01:53Z siraben: Eight queens?
2018-03-10T10:03:13Z _death: I once asked someone to define a class for representing classes (in the context of C++)
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2018-03-10T10:05:07Z siraben: Oh I don't know C++
2018-03-10T10:05:13Z siraben: I just know regular C
2018-03-10T10:06:09Z _death: as for palindromes, you can go deeper ;)
2018-03-10T10:06:17Z siraben: How deep
2018-03-10T10:08:10Z _death: you can have different units compared.. may be letters, or digits, or words..
2018-03-10T10:08:46Z pjb: fizzbuzz is not that easy as interview question: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2018-03-10T10:09:48Z pjb: https://hastebin.com/ukutuwinew.lisp
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2018-03-10T10:13:28Z pjb: https://hastebin.com/egojaraviv.lisp
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2018-03-10T10:14:45Z aeth: I wonder what the most efficient FizzBuzz solution is in SBCL (limiting it to one implementation so there's an objective, clear answer)
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2018-03-10T10:14:51Z beach: Shinmera: Around?
2018-03-10T10:15:59Z beach: Shinmera: For ELS registration, when I click on "Early regular", it says that the banquet is included, but the banquet option is also selected.  Shall I deselect the option?
2018-03-10T10:16:06Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/ea4bce104a835eb81ec3c21e471071e1
2018-03-10T10:17:29Z aeth: (oh, the fastest excluding define-vop and CFFI, too)
2018-03-10T10:17:31Z Shinmera: beach: No, only deselect it if you /don't/ want the banquet
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2018-03-10T10:17:36Z Shinmera: beach: The note is about the banquet being paid for.
2018-03-10T10:17:58Z Shinmera: as in, it's included in the price.
2018-03-10T10:18:39Z siraben: Does anyone participate in the Internet Problem Solving Contest?
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2018-03-10T10:21:07Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks.
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2018-03-10T12:54:32Z asarch: Are there exceptions in Lisp? If yes, can you give me a simple example)?
2018-03-10T12:55:15Z random-nick: what do you mean by "exception"? an error?
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2018-03-10T13:00:09Z asarch: Yeah, that stuff from C++/Python: try ... catch ... do ... final ... etc
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2018-03-10T13:00:42Z Shinmera: clhs handler-case
2018-03-10T13:00:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm
2018-03-10T13:00:47Z Shinmera: clhs unwind-protect
2018-03-10T13:00:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm
2018-03-10T13:01:15Z asarch: Thank you
2018-03-10T13:01:26Z Shinmera: PCL discusses this.
2018-03-10T13:01:31Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2018-03-10T13:03:42Z asarch: Really? Oh, I'll check it. I'm stuck on macros with the Mac story (chapter 8) :-P
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2018-03-10T13:12:18Z _death: only 10 more chapters then ;)
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2018-03-10T13:17:33Z wxie: erc-cmd-BYE
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2018-03-10T13:18:49Z _death: useless command
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2018-03-10T13:35:18Z asarch: Yeah! \o/
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2018-03-10T13:39:10Z beach: asarch: In Common Lisp, they are called "conditions", and we "signal" conditions, whereas other languages "raise" "exceptions".
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2018-03-10T13:43:50Z Shinmera: There are THROW and CATCH special forms in Lisp as well, but those provide a non local return mechanism, rather than anything to do with "exceptional situations"
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2018-03-10T14:03:12Z dxtr: Is it possible to simply "dump" an object with all of its contents?
2018-03-10T14:03:52Z Bike: in what format? for what purpose?
2018-03-10T14:04:10Z dxtr: the purpose? I don't know what object this is :D
2018-03-10T14:04:26Z dxtr: in what format? Whatever human-readable format, really
2018-03-10T14:04:30Z Bike: try describe
2018-03-10T14:04:33Z Bike: (describe object)
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2018-03-10T14:06:18Z Pierpa: Or INSPECT
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2018-03-10T14:08:49Z beach: dxtr: All of its contents could be very large.
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2018-03-10T14:09:26Z beach: dxtr: The class, the class of the class, the subclasses of those classes, the generic functions that specialize on those classes, etc. etc.
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2018-03-10T14:32:20Z dxtr: I know
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2018-03-10T14:40:27Z Shinmera: fouric: Here you go. https://toplists.tymoon.eu/1
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2018-03-10T15:55:15Z nydel: g'morning all
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2018-03-10T16:11:45Z beach: Hello nydel.
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2018-03-10T18:12:28Z asarch: Thank you beach
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2018-03-10T18:12:32Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-03-10T19:17:02Z borei: hi all
2018-03-10T19:17:25Z borei: need some help, getting notice from compiler
2018-03-10T19:17:31Z borei: can't find why
2018-03-10T19:17:34Z borei: https://pastebin.com/tkekTtnN
2018-03-10T19:17:49Z borei: have the same code for single-float - and it works
2018-03-10T19:17:58Z borei: without any notice
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2018-03-10T19:19:51Z Bike: probably single floats are immediate while double floats are boxed
2018-03-10T19:19:56Z totom: How deep does CAR and CDR goes?
2018-03-10T19:20:23Z totom: as in function defined in language
2018-03-10T19:20:40Z borei: :Bike that is new for me
2018-03-10T19:20:47Z Bike: so when returning the value from  (setf mref) it has to box the value, which is a small performance hit. probably pretty small since the input value is probably boxed anyway
2018-03-10T19:21:17Z Bike: totom: i do not understand
2018-03-10T19:21:17Z borei: what is immediate vs boxed ?
2018-03-10T19:21:28Z Bike: immediate means it can be like, stored in a register
2018-03-10T19:21:32Z Bike: double means it goes in memory somewhere
2018-03-10T19:21:40Z Bike: sbcl calls it a "pointer" here
2018-03-10T19:22:08Z Bike: it's possible that if you have the method body end with just 'value' after the setf, the note will go away
2018-03-10T19:22:12Z Bike: but i wouldn't really worry about it anyway
2018-03-10T19:22:16Z totom: Bike: For ex in ((blue pyramind)(red cube)) to get blue there is CAAR
2018-03-10T19:22:27Z Bike: oh. four deep.
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2018-03-10T19:22:33Z Bike: there's caaaar but no caaaaar.
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2018-03-10T19:22:39Z Bike: you can do car caaaar of course.
2018-03-10T19:22:47Z totom: For like CAAAADDDDR?
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2018-03-10T19:23:35Z totom: *four
2018-03-10T19:23:37Z Bike: there is no caaaaddddr
2018-03-10T19:23:46Z Bike: caar is two. caaaar is four.
2018-03-10T19:23:52Z totom: oh ok
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2018-03-10T19:25:07Z totom: the total of A and D can be used is four, right?
2018-03-10T19:25:21Z totom: with all possible combinations
2018-03-10T19:25:29Z totom: not more than that
2018-03-10T19:25:40Z Bike: yes.
2018-03-10T19:25:43Z Bike: clhs caaaar
2018-03-10T19:25:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2018-03-10T19:25:46Z totom: ok got it
2018-03-10T19:25:47Z Bike: check it out, exhaustive list
2018-03-10T19:25:53Z totom: ok
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2018-03-10T19:38:36Z fouric: Shinmera: Spiffy! I'm going to try it out. Thank you!
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2018-03-10T20:28:18Z troydm: I was wondering if there is anything more prettier than HyperSpec? because everytime I try to read it my inner sense of modern web is shuttered into small pieces
2018-03-10T20:29:04Z asarch: How do you compile a file from SBCL REPL? (compile-file "arithmetics.lisp") and (compile-file "/home/asarch/arithmetics.lisp") don't work
2018-03-10T20:29:19Z Shinmera: "don't work" is the best way to describe a problem
2018-03-10T20:29:54Z asarch: Failed to find the TRUENAME of arithmetics.lisp: No such file or directory
2018-03-10T20:29:56Z asarch: I mean...
2018-03-10T20:29:59Z fouric: troydm: boy do I have a site for you
2018-03-10T20:30:08Z fouric: phoe's excellent Common Lisp UltraSpec: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php
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2018-03-10T20:31:00Z troydm: fouric: ohh nice, nice I wanted to create something like this 5 years ago, but lack of time didn't allowed me to
2018-03-10T20:31:12Z Bike: asarch: means the file doesn't exist
2018-03-10T20:31:20Z fouric: It's still being worked on, but I've begun to use it instead of CLHS for function/macro/special form documentation lookups, and it's very servicable.
2018-03-10T20:31:31Z fouric: troydm: If you have some extra time you should consider contributing!
2018-03-10T20:31:40Z fouric: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2018-03-10T20:32:34Z asarch: Even with: Failed to find the TRUENAME of /home/asarch/arithmetics.lisp: No such file or directory
2018-03-10T20:33:00Z Bike: so, the file doesn't exist
2018-03-10T20:33:05Z Bike: like check your filesystem for it
2018-03-10T20:33:12Z troydm: fouric: unfortunately not currently, but I hope I'll have some in near future, as soon as I'll finish some of my stalled projects
2018-03-10T20:33:16Z asarch: The SBCL listener started at /home/asarch
2018-03-10T20:33:22Z Bike: irrelevant
2018-03-10T20:33:29Z fouric: troydm: I feel you - at least 2 dozen on the back-burner right now
2018-03-10T20:33:31Z Bike: you gave it an absolute path
2018-03-10T20:34:21Z asarch: Failed to find the TRUENAME of ./arithmetics.lisp: No such file or directory
2018-03-10T20:34:22Z asarch: ?
2018-03-10T20:34:27Z Bike: look
2018-03-10T20:34:29Z Bike: is the file there
2018-03-10T20:34:33Z Bike: like open up a shell and check
2018-03-10T20:34:46Z Bike: if it can't find it with the absolute path either it's not there or something is really messed up
2018-03-10T20:35:13Z fouric: (watch as the filename contains unicode characters that *look* like arithmetics.lisp but aren't)
2018-03-10T20:35:28Z asarch: $ file arithmetics.lisp arithmetics.lisp: Lisp/Scheme program, ASCII text
2018-03-10T20:35:39Z asarch: The file *IS* there
2018-03-10T20:35:47Z fouric: asarch: what do you get for `readlink -f arithmetics.lisp` ?
2018-03-10T20:35:53Z fouric: erm, without backticks, obviously
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2018-03-10T20:36:19Z Bike: is it actually in your home directory and not ~/src/arithmetics.lisp
2018-03-10T20:36:29Z Bike: is it arithmetics and not arithmatics or arethmetics or something
2018-03-10T20:36:38Z Bike: because (compile-file some-filename) works in the obvious way
2018-03-10T20:36:52Z asarch: I get: /home/asarch/arithmetics.lisp
2018-03-10T20:37:05Z asarch: Maybe Python's virtual-env...
2018-03-10T20:37:42Z asarch: Bingo! /home/asarch/arithmetics.fasl written
2018-03-10T20:38:16Z fouric: now I'm *really* curious
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2018-03-10T21:32:16Z asarch: One stupid question: can you use a compiled file with SBCL in other Common Lisp implementation, for example, CLisp?
2018-03-10T21:32:22Z asarch: And vice versa?
2018-03-10T21:32:39Z Bike: nope
2018-03-10T21:32:59Z Bike: sbcl fasls aren't even guaranteed to work in other sbcl executables
2018-03-10T21:33:06Z asarch: So, the ANSI standard doesn't include the binary file, right?
2018-03-10T21:33:07Z random-nick: well you can execute the implementation as a separate process
2018-03-10T21:33:11Z Bike: it does not
2018-03-10T21:33:23Z asarch: Why?
2018-03-10T21:33:27Z Bike: why what
2018-03-10T21:34:17Z Shinmera: Implementations are very different. CL doesn't even specify anything about memory or instruction set.
2018-03-10T21:34:27Z asarch: Oh
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2018-03-10T21:35:29Z Shinmera: Giving implementations freedom means they can do things in a way that works best for their particular goals.
2018-03-10T21:35:43Z Shinmera: Anything you specify is a restriction and can potentially become a hindrance.
2018-03-10T21:35:52Z Shinmera: As such the committee was very careful not to over specify things.
2018-03-10T21:36:11Z asarch: I see
2018-03-10T21:36:22Z pjb: asarch: notice that you can write a conforming compiler with a conforming loader so that you could distribute compiled code to all the CL implementations.
2018-03-10T21:36:30Z asarch: I thought there was an specification for this binary file
2018-03-10T21:36:51Z pjb: asarch: the specification for a minimal implementation is the CLHS!
2018-03-10T21:36:53Z asarch: And I was about to asking the way to use this binary file in other programming languages like C
2018-03-10T21:37:03Z pjb: ie. you can just save and load the lisp sources!
2018-03-10T21:37:07Z Bike: boy, you're ambitious
2018-03-10T21:37:13Z Bike: you realize C doesn't define a binary file format either?
2018-03-10T21:37:18Z pjb: asarch: and to use it in C, use libecl!
2018-03-10T21:37:29Z asarch: Bike, touché!
2018-03-10T21:38:43Z asarch: I was thinking last night when I was re-reading my notes (a sea of notes) about a situation when a programmer in Lisp forgot to check a value to prevent a division by zero
2018-03-10T21:39:10Z asarch: The programmer only supplied the binary file of his modules
2018-03-10T21:39:45Z asarch: And I was wondering if there is a way to override a function written in a binary file
2018-03-10T21:40:15Z Bike: you can redefine functions
2018-03-10T21:40:26Z Bike: though there's some conformity issues doing so with compilation units babble babble jargon
2018-03-10T21:40:27Z Shinmera: how the definitions are stored makes no difference
2018-03-10T21:41:35Z asarch: And I was wondering if there was a way to modify that binary file so new programmers could even get a warning message in the future:
2018-03-10T21:41:41Z asarch: "arithmetic error DIVISION-BY-ZERO signalled"
2018-03-10T21:41:56Z Bike: usually you'd edit the source and recompile that
2018-03-10T21:42:09Z asarch: I see
2018-03-10T21:42:16Z Bike: if you don't have the source, too bad
2018-03-10T21:42:19Z Shinmera: you can load in a definition that replaces it afterwards
2018-03-10T21:42:19Z asarch: I thought it was like Smalltalk
2018-03-10T21:42:28Z Bike: smalltalk has a defined vm, right
2018-03-10T21:42:34Z Bike: or at least -80 does
2018-03-10T21:42:39Z _death: you could patch the binary but it's not portable
2018-03-10T21:43:16Z asarch: I see
2018-03-10T21:43:19Z asarch: Thank you guys
2018-03-10T21:43:30Z asarch: Thank you very much for clarify my mind :-)
2018-03-10T21:45:25Z asarch: One last question: if I (load "the-original-binary-file-from-the-programmer.fasl") and the I (load "my-source-code-with-the-corrections.lisp"), can I dump this modified environment into a file?
2018-03-10T21:46:22Z Bike: as an image, not a fasl.
2018-03-10T21:46:27Z Bike: but yes.
2018-03-10T21:47:26Z asarch: How?
2018-03-10T21:48:10Z Bike: implementation dependent (or rather it's not in the standard at all, just a common extension). images are a different concept from fasls; it's more like save/load mechanism.
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2018-03-10T21:49:23Z asarch: Like a session
2018-03-10T21:49:25Z asarch: ?
2018-03-10T21:49:45Z Bike: yes, exactly.
2018-03-10T21:50:25Z asarch: That's great
2018-03-10T21:50:40Z asarch: I could share my image with you so you could help me
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2018-03-10T21:52:08Z Shinmera: It's not that easy. Can't have things like threads or open files in an image.
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2018-03-10T21:53:04Z asarch: Oh :-(
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2018-03-10T21:54:46Z aeth: Would it be hard to write a decompiler for popular CL implementations? I guess it wouldn't have the macros, so it would look very low-level (e.g. iteration would just be go in a tagbody), but guessing the macros could be an extra step (and if you knew the implementation, you'd at least know exactly what a built-in macro would generate)
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2018-03-10T21:55:20Z Bike: decompilers are really hard
2018-03-10T21:55:43Z Bike: before you talk about macros it's non trivial to recognize shit like bindings
2018-03-10T21:55:47Z asarch: If I (load "the-original-binary-file-from-the-programmer.fasl"), is there any way to list the recent-loaded functions?
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2018-03-10T21:55:51Z aeth: I think CL makes some parts easier, though. I don't think it strips the symbols? At least for things in the global environment (it might do whatever it wants for lexical environments)
2018-03-10T21:56:24Z Bike: asarch: you should think of fasls as the name implies: "fast load". it's conceptually just an accelerated version of loading the source file.
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2018-03-10T21:56:33Z Bike: which can have arbitrary side effects for which there are no introspection
2018-03-10T22:00:19Z sindan: Is there any way to know whether getf has found the indicator it was looking for? In a place where I know what *cannot* be there, it's easy to choose a default for getf, but used as a mechanism to retrieve arbitrary objects from many places with varied data, there is no way to choose a safe default, or am I missing something?
2018-03-10T22:00:37Z Shinmera: sindan: it has a default value you can pass it
2018-03-10T22:00:47Z Bike: for the default you can use a unique object.
2018-03-10T22:00:54Z Bike: like the result of gensym, or a fresh cons.
2018-03-10T22:01:33Z Shinmera: (let ((not-found (make-symbol "not found"))) (unless (eq not-found (getf place key not-found)) ..))
2018-03-10T22:02:12Z sindan: getf uses only eq right?
2018-03-10T22:02:30Z Bike: well, for the keys, yes
2018-03-10T22:02:44Z Shinmera: sure. what relevance does this have?
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2018-03-10T22:05:10Z sindan: Bike: ok a gensym should do
2018-03-10T22:06:35Z Shinmera: Don't use gensym, just use make-symbol.
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2018-03-10T22:06:45Z Shinmera: gensym would needlessly increase the counter.
2018-03-10T22:07:20Z pjb: Shinmera: how much time before it would matter? (before you reach bignums?)
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2018-03-10T22:07:46Z pjb: (/ most-positive-fixnum 1e9 31e6) #| --> 37.191013 |#  37 years.
2018-03-10T22:07:56Z Shinmera: Still no reason to use gensym.
2018-03-10T22:08:40Z pjb: Shinmera: at least use load-time-value!
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2018-03-10T22:09:04Z Shinmera: Or defvar it, yeah.
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2018-03-10T22:09:51Z pjb: No, defvar would defeat the point.
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2018-03-10T22:11:08Z kamyar: Please help me to decide to use Common Lisp for some Machine Learning microservice
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2018-03-10T22:12:41Z sindan: a symbol out of make-symbol would be garbage-collected at the end of the function?
2018-03-10T22:13:12Z pjb: kamyar: wouldn't a nVidia card and CUDA be better?
2018-03-10T22:13:40Z pjb: sindan: yes. just like a gensym, if it's not referenced anymore.
2018-03-10T22:14:02Z kamyar: pjb: The problem is not so complicated! We may just wanna predict a price for some e-hailing service
2018-03-10T22:14:18Z sindan: pjb: thanks
2018-03-10T22:14:29Z pjb: kamyar: CL is a general programming language, so you can use it to implement any algorithm.
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2018-03-10T22:15:21Z pjb: kamyar: I would certainly use it for that.  However, people sometimes expect things to go faster, even if with more bugs, so they often prefer C, or hardware solutions.
2018-03-10T22:16:35Z kamyar: pjb: No! I dont use C for such problems! We have a working code in Python, which runs a bit slow and may tease customers.
2018-03-10T22:16:54Z pjb: kamyar: then CL will be an improvement, if you use ccl or sbcl.
2018-03-10T22:17:25Z fouric: Anyone have thoughts on a Python <-> CL FFI?
2018-03-10T22:17:49Z kamyar: And I guess the performance of CL would be very close to its C counterpart!
2018-03-10T22:17:56Z kamyar: Since it compiles to machine native code
2018-03-10T22:17:57Z fouric: I'm tired of people letting me that Common Lisp isn't as useful as Python because of the lack of libraries, and want to do something about it - that preferably doesn't involve re-writing all of said libraries.
2018-03-10T22:18:14Z pjb: asarch: if you intend to redefine a function, you should declare it notinline (which doesn't mean it cannot be inlined but that if it is redefined, its redefinition will be taken into account).
2018-03-10T22:18:40Z pjb: fouric: cf. els a couple of years ago.
2018-03-10T22:18:46Z kamyar: fouric: The wise choise is to write Python extension with Lisp, not vice-versa
2018-03-10T22:19:28Z fouric: kamyar: yeah, but there are several million people on the internet who aren't wise and have already written Python code
2018-03-10T22:19:36Z Shinmera: There is a python compiler for CL, so you can load python sources into CL.
2018-03-10T22:19:47Z pjb: fouric: CLAUDE in https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/static/proceedings/2014.pdf
2018-03-10T22:20:04Z kamyar: fouric: I didnt mean writing Python is not wise!
2018-03-10T22:20:17Z stacksmith: yup.
2018-03-10T22:20:31Z kamyar: fouric: I meant calling a faster language from within a slow one is not wise
2018-03-10T22:21:03Z kamyar: fouric: Sorry! Calling a slower language from within a fast one is not wise
2018-03-10T22:22:12Z kamyar: I am a Haskell and Python programmer, and the code in Haskell runs many times faster than Python! Sometimes 10 times faster!
2018-03-10T22:22:50Z kamyar: So calling Python from within Haskell is rarely acceptable
2018-03-10T22:23:11Z kamyar: So is Lisp
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2018-03-10T22:25:51Z fouric: kamyar: I agree with that generalization - in this case, though, the problem I'm trying to solve has to do with the availability of code in Python vs. CL, less so than application performance. Thanks anyway though :)
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2018-03-10T22:26:26Z fouric: pjb: Shinmera: thank you!
2018-03-10T22:26:35Z pjb: kamyar: you can call a slower language from a faster one, to interpret scripts.
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2018-03-10T22:27:19Z Cthulhux: i load javascript from my cpp software as a scripting language
2018-03-10T22:27:21Z Cthulhux: nice actually
2018-03-10T22:27:23Z fouric: Shinmera: https://github.com/haroldl/clip ?
2018-03-10T22:27:26Z pjb: kamyar: and often you have to do it despite the slowdown, because you have to use a library written in the other language.
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2018-03-10T22:27:41Z fouric: "an aspiring Python implementation written in Haskell that generates Common Lisp"
2018-03-10T22:27:41Z fouric: oh boy
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2018-03-10T22:28:11Z Shinmera: fouric: I was thinking of https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/
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2018-03-10T22:28:50Z fouric: Cool, thank you
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2018-03-10T22:36:59Z Shinmera: There's also https://github.com/pinterface/burgled-batteries
2018-03-10T22:37:22Z fouric: loooool what's with that name
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2018-03-10T22:37:29Z fouric: (although seriously, this looks even closer to what I wanted)
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2018-03-10T22:39:35Z fouric: (thanks)
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2018-03-10T23:06:02Z jmercouris: most useful python libraries are written in C and wrapped in python anyway
2018-03-10T23:06:06Z jmercouris: at least in the ml space
2018-03-10T23:06:22Z jmercouris: so there is no point in wrapping python with cl, since cffi already exists
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2018-03-10T23:07:02Z fouric: I was under the impressive that only the compute-heavy bits were wrapped and there was a lot of less intensive logic stuff being done in Python
2018-03-10T23:07:09Z fouric: at least for *some* libraries
2018-03-10T23:07:14Z jmercouris: your impression is correct, sometimes
2018-03-10T23:07:21Z jmercouris: it's really lib dependent
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2018-03-10T23:07:43Z fouric: I've heard that numpy is a thin wrapper, but haven't used it myself, so not sure :?
2018-03-10T23:07:53Z jmercouris: if you'd use numpy, you'd see that
2018-03-10T23:07:58Z jmercouris: it doesn't even look at all like idiomatic python
2018-03-10T23:08:08Z jmercouris: what a right mess, that and pandas... but they are so useful
2018-03-10T23:08:19Z jmercouris: so, it is tolerated in the python community, and even encouraged by some zealots
2018-03-10T23:09:27Z jmercouris: just to be specific, I mean pandas is not-idiomatic, I can't speak as to how much of it is not written in python
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2018-03-10T23:11:00Z asarch: How would I do that pjb?
2018-03-10T23:11:12Z asarch: (The function not inline)
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2018-03-10T23:15:28Z Cthulhux: hmm.. how would i tell ningle to join the "/*" route only once instead of just recursively going there every time?
2018-03-10T23:15:33Z Cthulhux: (yes, "/*" is ugly - sorry)
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2018-03-10T23:21:36Z dandruff: Is there an up-to-date window manager written in Scheme?
2018-03-10T23:21:47Z Shinmera: Try #scheme
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2018-03-10T23:21:57Z dandruff: ok
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2018-03-10T23:22:18Z Shinmera: There is one written in Common Lisp, which would be on-topic.
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2018-03-10T23:22:47Z Cthulhux: there are some written in common lisp, but only one relevant one (i even forgot the name of the other..)
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2018-03-10T23:23:54Z dandruff: Scheme is a Lisp, isn't it? Cthulhux: I'm considering Stumpwm.
2018-03-10T23:24:07Z Cthulhux: stumpwm is really nice
2018-03-10T23:24:15Z Shinmera: Scheme is not Common Lisp. See the topic.
2018-03-10T23:24:19Z Cthulhux: scheme is "a lisp"
2018-03-10T23:24:40Z dandruff: ok
2018-03-10T23:24:43Z Cthulhux: i find this channel name to be incorrect as well though ;)
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2018-03-10T23:32:36Z fouric: For general Lisp-family questions, see ##lisp!
2018-03-10T23:33:48Z whoman: dandruff: i like EXWM
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2018-03-10T23:36:50Z pjb: dandruff: you wanted ##lisp
2018-03-10T23:36:59Z pjb: ##lisp is lisp in general, #lisp is specifically Common Lisp
2018-03-10T23:37:00Z dandruff: whoman: that looks really cool! I might go with that. Thanks.
2018-03-10T23:37:06Z dandruff: pjb: ok
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2018-03-10T23:37:30Z Cthulhux: exwm could need multi-threading.
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2018-03-10T23:37:31Z whoman: it is quite cool. no problem ^_^
2018-03-10T23:37:55Z ebrasca: Hi
2018-03-10T23:37:57Z whoman: elisp has some thread stuff now, perhaps we will see this in exwm?
2018-03-10T23:38:22Z Cthulhux: "some", yes - but it lacks wide adoption
2018-03-10T23:38:24Z whoman: Cthulhux: but i am not sure as exwm never blocks for me, just emacs itself on some operations
2018-03-10T23:39:01Z Cthulhux: that's the major problem i have with emacs (yet): it blocks "on some operations".
2018-03-10T23:39:06Z ebrasca: How to refactor lees times my programs?
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2018-03-10T23:43:26Z _death: ebrasca: I think it has a lot to do with practice, and with how much you already know about the domain.. or, with how little you care about maintenance I guess ;)
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2018-03-10T23:46:30Z ebrasca: _death: I like to maintenance , but I only think in 1 step at a time. It make with problems problesms to solve later.
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2018-03-10T23:49:01Z _death: ebrasca: right, so first figure things out and don't care about aesthetics.. this tends to happen when you're exploring new territory
2018-03-10T23:50:14Z _death: ebrasca: but with programming experience and knowledge of the domain, you already have heuristics that guide you to a clearer description of the solution
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2018-03-10T23:51:15Z _death: and many times in lisp, the description of the problem may serve as the description of the solution, with a bit of help :)
2018-03-10T23:53:08Z ebrasca: How to deal with clusters of data in my fat32 implementation is my problem. (disk to ram and ram to disk)
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2018-03-10T23:55:56Z _death: maybe start by listing some use cases.. how and why one might use your implementation
2018-03-10T23:56:36Z ebrasca: _death: There is no other fat32 implementation in mezzano.
2018-03-10T23:56:49Z pjb: for description of the problem = description of the solution see: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/oGmha6PbAD4/kmpG51wjJ6gJ
2018-03-10T23:56:56Z ebrasca: And I like some day use mezzano as my main OS.
2018-03-10T23:57:58Z ebrasca: mmm maybe I can read and write clusters and sectors by demand instead of in 1 piece write/read.
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2018-03-11T00:03:04Z ebrasca: _death: Thanks for help. Now I have some plan to work with.
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2018-03-11T00:27:59Z _death: pjb: good post.. I'm also reminded of https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/-uoDKZeKBr4/qGgFy-M3mvoJ as well as libraries like screamer or cl-glpk
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2018-03-11T04:22:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-11T04:48:20Z Fare: beach: chào anh
2018-03-11T04:49:34Z Fare: beach: if you're interested in compiling CL to Scheme, you could make SICL a Gerbil language.
2018-03-11T04:49:35Z beach: Fare: Are you going to ELS?
2018-03-11T04:50:10Z beach: Compiling CL to Scheme?  Why would that be useful?
2018-03-11T04:55:34Z beach: It's an honest question.
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2018-03-11T04:57:41Z beach: And by "make SICL a Gerbil language", do you mean using Gerbil to compile SICL, and thereby not using the Cleavir compiler framework?
2018-03-11T04:58:55Z Fare: beach: not at this point, but if I raise enough money, possibly.
2018-03-11T04:59:15Z beach: Fare: Which question was that an answer to?
2018-03-11T04:59:30Z Fare: how low-level is cleavir? I was thinking having Cleavir output Scheme.
2018-03-11T04:59:46Z Fare: beach: I'll go to ELS if I get the budget to go to ELS
2018-03-11T04:59:51Z beach: Got it.
2018-03-11T05:00:00Z Fare: right now, I don't have that budget.
2018-03-11T05:00:04Z beach: I see.
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2018-03-11T05:00:53Z beach: The essence of Cleavir is a flow graph similar to what is called MIR in the literature, except the first step is what I call HIR, which is like MIR except that it does not expose address calculations so that all data are Common Lisp objects.
2018-03-11T05:01:13Z beach: So it is way lower level than Scheme.
2018-03-11T05:01:35Z beach: I do translate HIR to Common Lisp so that I can run SICL code in a host Common Lisp system though.  But it is not very fast of course.
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2018-03-11T05:02:49Z Fare: if you have 3-5 million dollars lying around, I'm trying to raise money for my cryptocurrency project.
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2018-03-11T05:03:26Z beach: 'fraid not.  Sorry.
2018-03-11T05:04:10Z Fare: beach: would Cleavir be a good target to add special support for user-defined safe-points?
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2018-03-11T05:05:24Z beach: It could certainly be done.  But right now, only Common Lisp code can be processed.  It would take some effort to make it process something else.
2018-03-11T05:06:05Z beach: Though perhaps the entire AST-to-HIR could be roughly the same, so only source to AST would have to be rewritten for some other language.
2018-03-11T05:07:29Z beach: Fare: Basically, every step of processing in Cleavir uses generic functions with a CLIENT parameter that can be specialized upon.  And client code is free to introduce new AST types and new HIR types as long as methods are provided to process those new types when needed.
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2018-03-11T05:10:31Z beach: Some existing processing steps can even be used even if new HIR instructions are introduced.  For example, liveness analysis only looks at inputs and outputs of instructions, so it can handle client-specific instructions out of the box.
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2018-03-11T05:15:42Z Fare: I am slated to give a talk on first-class implementations in June at LambdaConf 2018.
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2018-03-11T05:15:54Z Fare: This year, I'd like to have at least a very rough prototype.
2018-03-11T05:16:14Z beach: When is the conference?
2018-03-11T05:16:32Z beach: And what is meant by "first-class implementations"?
2018-03-11T05:16:57Z Fare: e.g. compiling a subset of (Scheme|CL) to (Scheme|CL) with first-class safe-points.
2018-03-11T05:17:11Z Fare: beach: basically, my PhD thesis work.
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2018-03-11T05:17:21Z Fare: https://j.mp/FarePhD
2018-03-11T05:17:57Z beach: I am reminded that I agreed to read it, but haven't had the time. :(
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2018-03-11T05:27:48Z JuanDaugherty: Fare, I like your thesis, will absorb further. One extremely petty thing, you betray yourself as a native speaker of a lang that doesn't have agreement in number, as the English plural usage is regularly ungrammatical including in the first sentence.
2018-03-11T05:28:52Z JuanDaugherty: extremely petty but distracting, in the first occurrence "topic" instead of "topics" i wondered if you meant topoi
2018-03-11T05:29:31Z JuanDaugherty: (at first before the pattern was clear)
2018-03-11T05:30:22Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Fare is a native speaker of French, which does have agreement in number.
2018-03-11T05:30:50Z JuanDaugherty: i thought probably vietnamese
2018-03-11T05:30:52Z beach: For some value of "native".
2018-03-11T05:31:05Z beach: His Vietnamese is worse than mine. :)
2018-03-11T05:31:10Z JuanDaugherty: which is likely sino tibetan
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2018-03-11T05:31:52Z JuanDaugherty: Austroasiatc
2018-03-11T05:33:27Z JuanDaugherty: it is, as I say, petty, if the thesis is cogent, a worthwhile contribution, or at least more perspective on semantics
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2018-03-11T05:34:36Z Fare: The thesis probably need a lot of proofreading :-(
2018-03-11T05:35:33Z Fare: thanks for warning me about the very first sentence.
2018-03-11T05:36:25Z Fare: beach, I haven't touched it much since December.
2018-03-11T05:36:26Z JuanDaugherty: and no vietnamese does not have agreement in the form of morphological effect on the target, usage is similar to chinese
2018-03-11T05:39:01Z JuanDaugherty: beach, you're fluent in vietnamese?
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2018-03-11T05:39:40Z JuanDaugherty: or, alternatively Fare, you never were?
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2018-03-11T05:41:32Z JuanDaugherty: in any case stuff addressing semantics in a computing context is good, it tends be siloed/isolated in AI/nlp or just pure research on it as such
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2018-03-11T05:44:07Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. true/deep semantics, not the thing called that which is direction for how to implement something syntactically specified
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2018-03-11T05:56:53Z SaganMan: Morning Peeps
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2018-03-11T06:00:25Z whoman: good evening
2018-03-11T06:00:29Z beach: JuanDaugherty: I am definitely not fluent in Vietnamese,  and according to Fare, his Vietnamese is (or was) the level of child.
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2018-03-11T06:01:13Z beach: JuanDaugherty: It is more of a game between the two of us.  Every time we meet, we try to exchange a few words, but it hasn't been very successful.
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2018-03-11T06:03:11Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Fare claims that he can not understand what I say because my "pronunciation is strange".  However, the (southern) Vietnamese clerk at the Eurasia store understands my (southern) Vietnamese quite well.
2018-03-11T06:03:25Z beach: Anyway, enough off-topic material.
2018-03-11T06:03:41Z JuanDaugherty: moin SaganMan ; beach, ah, vietnamese is tonal, yes it is.
2018-03-11T06:03:55Z beach: Definitely.
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2018-03-11T06:04:03Z beach: 6 tones in the north, 5 in the south.
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2018-03-11T06:05:09Z beach: 4 are the same in the north and in the south.
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2018-03-11T06:08:48Z JuanDaugherty doesn't know of anything like a common semantic thing for lisp as such other than the usual inclusion of a prolog implementation
2018-03-11T06:09:58Z fouric: Is there an easy way of getting CFFI to print a list of search paths after it explodes because it could not find a shared library?
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2018-03-11T06:11:00Z JuanDaugherty: isn't just inspecting the paths easier?
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2018-03-11T06:14:04Z Fare: beach: which tones are confused in the south?
2018-03-11T06:14:23Z Fare: fouric: there's always a way
2018-03-11T06:15:37Z fouric: Fare: of course - I was just hoping for something easy, because otherwise I'll just start putting symlinks in /usr/lib or something
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2018-03-11T06:16:03Z fouric sudo ln
2018-03-11T06:17:37Z fouric: Wait, LD_LIBRARY_PATH is a thing.
2018-03-11T06:17:39Z fouric: Just kidding.
2018-03-11T06:18:01Z fouric: Turns out that the CFFI documentation is actually pretty useful.
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2018-03-11T06:22:30Z beach: Fare: ~ and ? are pronounced the same in the south.
2018-03-11T06:22:52Z beach: Fare: . is pronounced differently in the north and in the south.
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2018-03-11T06:24:13Z beach: Fare: I mean ~ is pronounced in the south just like ? is pronounced both in the north and in the south.
2018-03-11T06:24:41Z fouric: beach: are you familiar with the Java concept of "interfaces"?
2018-03-11T06:25:02Z beach: Fare: Neither ~ nor . has a "glottal stop" in the south.
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2018-03-11T06:25:16Z beach: fouric: Yes, it is a subset of what we call "protocols" in Common Lisp.
2018-03-11T06:25:41Z fouric: How correct would it be to call Cleavir a compiler "interface"?
2018-03-11T06:25:58Z fouric: Oh, I haven't heard of this concept (protocols) before.
2018-03-11T06:26:05Z fouric: Do you have something I could read?
2018-03-11T06:26:11Z beach: Yes, hold on...
2018-03-11T06:26:23Z fouric: (you could explain it here if you wanted, but if you have a good resource, no need to consume your time...)
2018-03-11T06:26:31Z beach: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
2018-03-11T06:26:39Z fouric: Excellent. Thank you!
2018-03-11T06:27:07Z beach: fouric: Cleavir has a large collection of protocols.  Such a collection is sometimes referred to as a "framework".
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2018-03-11T06:53:16Z patrixl: #emacs
2018-03-11T06:53:38Z beach: patrixl: What about it?
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2018-03-11T06:56:05Z patrixl: beach: sorry. my fingers have been having trouble typing properly today, and this time missed the whole /join part of that line..
2018-03-11T06:57:42Z patrixl: not as bad as that time I typed my nickserv password in a channel lol
2018-03-11T06:57:56Z beach: Yeah, it happens.
2018-03-11T06:58:54Z patrixl: yeah, lol
2018-03-11T06:59:34Z siraben: Does IRC have 2FA?
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2018-03-11T07:00:05Z patrixl: oh hi siraben
2018-03-11T07:00:20Z patrixl: no 2FA AFAIK but I haven't been around for some years lol.
2018-03-11T07:00:56Z siraben: Hi patrixl
2018-03-11T07:00:58Z siraben: Oh lol
2018-03-11T07:01:09Z siraben: Is it possible to connect to freenode without registering?
2018-03-11T07:01:23Z patrixl: yes
2018-03-11T07:01:24Z beach: Let's try to stick to the topic a bit more this time, OK?
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2018-03-11T07:01:50Z siraben: beach: What do you mean?
2018-03-11T07:02:19Z siraben: beach: Don't we always ;)
2018-03-11T07:02:23Z beach: The other day, you had a very long conversation completely unrelated to Common Lisp.  Just reminding you about the topic.
2018-03-11T07:02:35Z siraben: Oh yeah, sorry about that
2018-03-11T07:02:42Z siraben: Quite new to IRC
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2018-03-11T07:03:09Z SaganMan: Shinmera: join #help
2018-03-11T07:03:25Z SaganMan: siraben: join #help
2018-03-11T07:03:33Z siraben: Ok
2018-03-11T07:03:36Z SaganMan: Shinmera: sorry, wrong highlight
2018-03-11T07:04:43Z st_iron: hello
2018-03-11T07:04:59Z beach: Hello st_iron.
2018-03-11T07:05:19Z st_iron: do i understand well that cons cells are just like single linked lists, and the car contains the value, the cdr the pointer to the next item?
2018-03-11T07:05:38Z st_iron: s/pointer/reference/
2018-03-11T07:05:45Z beach: st_iron: That is how CONS cells are often used, i.e. to build lists.
2018-03-11T07:05:49Z siraben: Yes
2018-03-11T07:05:55Z beach: st_iron: But, they can be used as pairs as well.
2018-03-11T07:05:58Z st_iron: thanks!
2018-03-11T07:06:13Z siraben: You can do circular lists in Common Lisp
2018-03-11T07:06:21Z st_iron: pairs? like (a . b)?
2018-03-11T07:06:22Z beach: siraben: Yes.
2018-03-11T07:06:25Z SaganMan: yes
2018-03-11T07:06:28Z beach: st_iron: Yes.
2018-03-11T07:06:43Z SaganMan: it's easy to do that
2018-03-11T07:06:55Z siraben: Are lists implemented with O(n) lookup time?
2018-03-11T07:06:56Z st_iron: understood, thank you very much, it's clear now
2018-03-11T07:07:04Z siraben: Would it be better to use hash tables or data lookup?
2018-03-11T07:07:07Z siraben: for*
2018-03-11T07:07:24Z beach: siraben: Depends on the size.  Yes, O(n).
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2018-03-11T07:08:20Z siraben: Could you implement lists as only putting cars on top of each other?
2018-03-11T07:08:32Z siraben: e.g. (c (b (a)))
2018-03-11T07:08:38Z siraben: Wait no
2018-03-11T07:08:42Z beach: siraben: Sure, but then the language has no support for such lists.
2018-03-11T07:09:08Z beach: siraben: You would have to rewrite FIND, POSITION, MAPCAR, etc.
2018-03-11T07:09:20Z siraben: Would be an exercise I suppose
2018-03-11T07:09:30Z beach: Not a very useful one.
2018-03-11T07:09:44Z siraben: Are continuations in Common Lisp as well?
2018-03-11T07:09:54Z beach: No
2018-03-11T07:09:54Z siraben: equivalent to call/cc
2018-03-11T07:10:13Z siraben: But you can write functions by CPS transform to add that, right?
2018-03-11T07:11:22Z st_iron: i study from Peter Seibel's book, he explains everything very well
2018-03-11T07:11:40Z beach: siraben: Sure you can transform to CPS, but you still don't have call/cc. Also, CPS pretty much requires tail-call optimization which the standard doesn't require.
2018-03-11T07:11:47Z st_iron: but sometimes the explanation confuses me :)
2018-03-11T07:12:05Z beach: st_iron: Then you come here and get clarification.
2018-03-11T07:12:38Z st_iron: beach: and i really appreciate it :) thanks
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2018-03-11T07:13:44Z siraben: I wonder what an operating system built on Lisp would be like
2018-03-11T07:13:47Z siraben: Like the Lisp machines of the past
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2018-03-11T07:14:23Z beach: siraben: Something like this I would imagine http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2018-03-11T07:17:31Z beach: siraben: There is also Mezzano which is much more complete at this point.
2018-03-11T07:17:43Z beach: siraben: And Movitz, but it is no longer maintained.
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2018-03-11T07:26:06Z Fare: passing your code thru a CPT is fine, but then all library code has to go thru the same CPT, or else
2018-03-11T07:26:39Z Fare: siraben, look at rust & such for OS on suitable languages
2018-03-11T07:27:37Z beach: siraben: Did you faint?
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2018-03-11T07:45:55Z patrixl: lol guess so
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2018-03-11T09:00:57Z jack_rabbit: asdf is giving me 'Component "package html-convert" not found' when trying to load one of my projects. html-convert.lisp is a file in my project, and listed under components as :file.
2018-03-11T09:01:04Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-03-11T09:01:28Z jack_rabbit: It's not listed as a package dependency. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I've never run into this before.
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2018-03-11T09:01:55Z beach: jack_rabbit: "package" here means Common Lisp package, not ASDF "system".
2018-03-11T09:02:21Z beach: jack_rabbit: So you are probably using a package prefix or IN-PACKAGE before you do the DEFPACKAGE.
2018-03-11T09:02:38Z beach: No wait.  That doesn't sound right.
2018-03-11T09:03:05Z beach: are you sure about the message.  There seems to be a space in the name of the component.
2018-03-11T09:03:20Z jack_rabbit: NOPE! I missed some quotes.
2018-03-11T09:03:26Z jack_rabbit: Yes, that's the issue.
2018-03-11T09:03:42Z jack_rabbit: Dependency was "package html-convert" rather than "package" "html-convert"
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2018-03-11T09:03:57Z beach: OK
2018-03-11T09:04:10Z jack_rabbit: Thanks. Sorry to trouble over silly mistakes.
2018-03-11T09:04:18Z beach: It happens.
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2018-03-11T10:11:55Z smokeink: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvmTSpJU-Xc Alan Kay - Normal Considered Harmful
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2018-03-11T11:56:55Z cuso4: Hey!
2018-03-11T11:57:09Z cuso4: I am doing one of my physics problems in lisp
2018-03-11T11:57:40Z cuso4: And I get a floating point overflow error. But I can't seem to find anything online on how to solve it
2018-03-11T11:58:25Z Bike: do you know what floating point overflow is?
2018-03-11T12:00:58Z cuso4: https://codeshare.io/2plJ0Y
2018-03-11T12:01:05Z cuso4: This is what the code looks like
2018-03-11T12:01:08Z cuso4: not really
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2018-03-11T12:01:54Z cuso4: It is the e_total function that overflows for values of m>205
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2018-03-11T12:03:49Z Bike: it means there's a floating point number that's too big to represent
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2018-03-11T12:04:26Z Bike: check most-positive-single-float; it's probably around 3e38
2018-03-11T12:04:47Z Bike: c^4 is about 8e33, so if m_n is larger than ten thousand ish you're out of numbers
2018-03-11T12:04:58Z Bike: m_n^2 i mean
2018-03-11T12:05:18Z Bike: so you should use doubles instead of singles.
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2018-03-11T12:09:12Z cuso4: It works now
2018-03-11T12:09:13Z cuso4: thanks
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2018-03-11T12:11:47Z Bike: if you deal with really big values, you might have to finesse it to avoid computing that huge intermediate value that you then take the sqrt of, but i don't know how to do that off the top of my head
2018-03-11T12:12:06Z Bike: well. i guess you can write it as c*sqrt(mc^2+p)
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2018-03-11T12:14:03Z cuso4: That would work
2018-03-11T12:14:48Z cuso4: Of ccourse you could use some numerical methods too, but my current solution is good enough.
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2018-03-11T12:39:53Z pjb: (expt 206 2) #| --> 42436 |#
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2018-03-11T17:53:27Z akr: Hello, can someone please help me make sense of the "docs" for cl-opengl http://quickdocs.org/cl-opengl/api
2018-03-11T17:53:38Z akr: I want to create an opengl context on an already existing window
2018-03-11T17:53:42Z akr: namely, the X root window
2018-03-11T17:54:06Z akr: I can get it through clx (bindings for xlib)
2018-03-11T17:54:25Z akr: but I don't know where to plug it in into cl-opengl
2018-03-11T17:56:15Z Shinmera: cl-opengl does not handle context or window creation. Those parts are heavily OS specific.
2018-03-11T17:56:27Z Shinmera: It only deals with the OpenGL API itself.
2018-03-11T17:56:54Z akr: hmm okay, what should I do then?
2018-03-11T17:57:06Z Shinmera: See glut, glfw, sdl2, glop, etc. to do that.
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2018-03-11T17:57:47Z akr: aren't bindings to glut part of cl-opencl?
2018-03-11T17:58:16Z Shinmera: It's part of the project, but not part of the system.
2018-03-11T17:58:16Z akr: hmm, guess not
2018-03-11T17:58:25Z akr: ah, okay
2018-03-11T17:58:28Z Shinmera: Anyway, glut is /really old/, so I can't recommend using it.
2018-03-11T17:58:48Z Shinmera: Try cl-glfw3 or something.
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2018-03-11T18:00:20Z akr: alright, thanks
2018-03-11T18:00:51Z Shinmera: glop is a "pure CL" attempt at doing the same, but it's a bit sketchy / underdeveloped in parts.
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2018-03-11T18:01:17Z Shinmera: So depending on how you feel about foreign library dependencies...
2018-03-11T18:01:30Z akr: glfw3 looks nice
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2018-03-11T18:02:05Z akr: do you think I can plug the window obtained from xlib:screen-root directly into glfw:make-context-current?
2018-03-11T18:02:11Z Shinmera: No
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2018-03-11T18:04:17Z akr: hmm
2018-03-11T18:05:02Z Shinmera: All of these libraries will do the window creation for you. Is there any reason you want to do it yourself?
2018-03-11T18:05:23Z akr: like I said, I want to draw to a pre-existing window
2018-03-11T18:05:31Z akr: to be exact, the X root window
2018-03-11T18:05:36Z akr: as I want to render a live wallpaper
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2018-03-11T18:06:20Z Shinmera: Hmm, not sure then.
2018-03-11T18:06:47Z Shinmera: I suppose as a last resort you could browse the sources of GLFW's X11 implementation and pick the parts you need to creat the context and prepare the window.
2018-03-11T18:07:44Z akr: I'd guess that cl-glfw3 won't have bindings to the necessary functions
2018-03-11T18:08:08Z Shinmera: I'd be surprised if glfw3's public API itself does.
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2018-03-11T18:08:47Z akr: nevermind then, thanks anyway
2018-03-11T18:09:10Z Shinmera: I assume it's typically not exposed because it is a rather low-level, platform specific detail.
2018-03-11T18:09:22Z akr: yeah, it would be
2018-03-11T18:11:02Z Shinmera: On the other hand, this is a good opportunity to write a small library that can be re-used to get a X root GL context. :)
2018-03-11T18:11:57Z akr: unfortunately, I have no idea how one would go about doing that
2018-03-11T18:12:28Z Shinmera: Look at the sources of glfw/glop/etc, see what they do, then replicate that in CL.
2018-03-11T18:12:43Z Shinmera: except switching out window creation with plugging in the handle of the root window.
2018-03-11T18:13:36Z akr: maybe I'll try that later, gotta go do something else now
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2018-03-11T18:13:42Z akr: in any case, thanks a lot for the info
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2018-03-11T19:08:05Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/3V3A9A6
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2018-03-11T19:11:53Z oleo: at least got it to minimal now
2018-03-11T19:11:55Z oleo: eheh
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2018-03-11T19:37:18Z oleo: https://paste.pics/2QNNV
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2018-03-11T20:28:33Z schoppenhauer: hi. i get the error message ;   READ error during COMPILE-FILE:;   ;     Symbol "*ASSEM-INSTRUCTIONS*" not found in the SB-ASSEM package. when trying to load SLIME (version 2.14; quicklisp)
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2018-03-11T20:31:58Z schoppenhauer: ok updating to 2.20 helped
2018-03-11T20:32:00Z schoppenhauer: thx
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2018-03-11T21:35:43Z shka_: Shinmera: I created set of niche extensions to documentation-utils: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/documentation-utils-extensions
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2018-03-11T21:36:00Z shka_: namely rich-formatter, and gathering stuff
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2018-03-12T03:50:20Z drmeister: If I have multiple slime sessions running at the same time - does C-c C-c go just to the most recent one?
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2018-03-12T04:41:00Z Bike: which one it is is in the mode line
2018-03-12T04:41:05Z Bike: you can do M-x slime-next-connection
2018-03-12T04:41:10Z Bike: to switch
2018-03-12T04:49:17Z borei: hi all
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2018-03-12T04:50:50Z borei: bit confused with the following problem, i have function (method), and one of the argument should be simple-array, i have declare for it
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2018-03-12T04:51:41Z borei: im calling above function as (fun (#(1.0 2.0 3.0)), but getting error that #(1.0 2.0. 3.0) is not simple-array
2018-03-12T04:52:26Z Bike: (#(1.0 2.0 3.0)) is invalid syntax
2018-03-12T04:54:08Z borei: (fun #(1.0 2.0 3.0))
2018-03-12T04:54:35Z Bike: okay, so what's the context of the error? a backtrace? full message?
2018-03-12T04:54:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-12T04:55:29Z borei:   The value
2018-03-12T04:55:29Z borei:     #(0.0 1.5 0.0 1.0)
2018-03-12T04:55:29Z borei:   is not of type
2018-03-12T04:55:29Z borei:     (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT)
2018-03-12T04:55:36Z pjb: borei: simple-array is not a class.
2018-03-12T04:55:44Z beach: borei: That's different from what you said before.
2018-03-12T04:55:49Z pjb: borei: use ARRAY.
2018-03-12T04:56:01Z Bike: yaeh that's different from "is not simple-array"
2018-03-12T04:56:49Z beach: borei: When the reader sees that, it creates a (SIMPLE-ARRAY T), not a (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT).
2018-03-12T04:56:49Z pjb: borei: also, #(0.0 1.5 0.0 1.0) is a vector.
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2018-03-12T04:57:58Z borei: trying to digest
2018-03-12T04:58:05Z beach: borei: The declaration does not have to do with what the array happens to contain, but with what it is ALLOWED to contain.  In this case, the reader creates an array that is allowed to contain anything.  It just so happens that it contains only floats.
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2018-03-12T04:59:40Z beach: smokeink: Thanks for posting the link to the Alan Kay's talk.  Very interesting.  I don't agree with everything he says, but many things are definitely true.
2018-03-12T05:00:11Z smokeink: :)
2018-03-12T05:03:01Z epony: morning, can I have the same link too (just joining)?
2018-03-12T05:03:32Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvmTSpJU-Xc Alan Kay - Normal Considered Harmful
2018-03-12T05:03:43Z epony: thank you
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2018-03-12T05:11:47Z chenbin: https://hackernoon.com/the-coolest-react-ui-frameworks-for-your-new-react-app-ad699fffd651 , which react based UI is lispers' favorite?
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2018-03-12T05:21:45Z epony: beach what are the points you don't agree with? (if this is not too much of an aggravation)
2018-03-12T05:22:00Z smokeink: chenbin: I like this one https://lively-web.org/welcome.html , but it's not a reactjs thing, it's based on smalltalk . Haven't heard of any lisper that uses reactjs or angularjs , but there might be a few out there...
2018-03-12T05:22:20Z beach: epony: That Unix processes are a great invention. :)
2018-03-12T05:23:02Z mangoicedtea: pjb, thanks for the alan kay video
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2018-03-12T05:23:37Z epony: I'm interested if there are more points that you don't agree with or think are a good idea, I've not yet seen the entire talk (10m into it) and watching with a clear mind
2018-03-12T05:24:55Z beach: I am doubtful about the universal goodness of WYSIWYG.  I think that has to be moderated some.  But I agree that the Web is a mess as it is.
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2018-03-12T05:28:36Z pjb: yes, it's not a universal, it's a device non-programming users.
2018-03-12T05:32:01Z chenbin: react and clojurescript works fine
2018-03-12T05:32:24Z chenbin: rocks for symbol and FP
2018-03-12T05:32:29Z epony: I'm thinking how come Intel and Motorola didn't know about byte code interpreters for high level languages in hardware?
2018-03-12T05:32:53Z epony: 9m36s into the talk
2018-03-12T05:34:18Z pjb: They knew about it of course. But they were making MICRO processors, as in µ-processors.
2018-03-12T05:34:44Z pjb: Ie. 10^-6 processors or 0.000001 of a processor.
2018-03-12T05:34:58Z beach: epony: I don't know the details.  What I do know is that there is a tendency to think about companies as homogeneous entities with lots of wisdom.  In fact, they consist of people with conflicting goals and varying ideas and knowledge.  It could very well be that some people knew about it, and others in the company made decisions against it.
2018-03-12T05:35:15Z pjb: epony: They started with only a couple of 1000s of transistors.
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2018-03-12T05:44:10Z epony: ironically the browser icon was a navigator's wheel (as in a wooden ship) and not as in a cart / car
2018-03-12T05:45:19Z beach: epony: Interesting you should mention that.  I have long thought that the steering wheel of a car is an anachronism and should be gotten rid of immediately.
2018-03-12T05:47:17Z epony: I think the mishaps of modern 90ies to today choices are intentionally crippling the potential into consumer devices like a 1 button radio clock, where a press of the button incurs a bill sound and counts towards an expense meter.
2018-03-12T05:48:22Z epony: at least for most computer users, not counting into this academic environments which sadly are becoming more consumer seats
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2018-03-12T05:55:11Z pjb: beach: one button instead of two on a device means it costs 0.10 € less, which means, over 100,000,000 devices a bonus for the CEO of 10,000,000 €.
2018-03-12T05:55:54Z epony: I would argue both devices cost the same from now on till proven otherwise.
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2018-03-12T05:58:47Z beach: pjb: Why are you telling me?
2018-03-12T06:00:56Z pjb: because the line refering to 1-button radio clock was too long and I misidentified the author. Sorry.
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2018-03-12T06:14:49Z shka_: hmmm
2018-03-12T06:15:05Z shka_: how can i establish binding for dynamic variable in macroexpand time?
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2018-03-12T06:16:24Z pjb: (let ((*foo* 42)) …)
2018-03-12T06:16:42Z shka_: pjb: without modyfing macro
2018-03-12T06:17:07Z pjb: With *macroexpand-hook*
2018-03-12T06:17:21Z shka_: never used it
2018-03-12T06:17:53Z pjb: (defun hook (expander form env) (let ((*foo* 42)) (funcall expander form env)))
2018-03-12T06:19:20Z shka_: hm, i see
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2018-03-12T06:31:42Z shka_: pjb: does this look good? https://pastebin.com/cr8fHQaa
2018-03-12T06:32:07Z pjb: no.
2018-03-12T06:32:13Z pjb: or yes.
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2018-03-12T06:32:27Z shka_: maybe?
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2018-03-12T06:33:13Z pjb: The think is that either you know  what dynamic variables are used by the macros, which means you have the sources of those macros, so why don't you just modify them?  Or you don't and therefore you won't be able to bind what's relevant, do you?
2018-03-12T06:33:25Z pjb: But technically, yes, this will do.
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2018-03-12T06:34:02Z shka_: i know, because documentation tells me, but i won't modify because it is not my maco
2018-03-12T06:34:19Z pjb: shka_: also, if you would bind variables such as the cl:*print-…* variables, then it means there are bugs in those macros…
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2018-03-12T06:34:53Z pjb: They are strange macros…
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2018-03-12T06:52:01Z lieven: this kind of sounds like COMPILER-LET
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2018-03-12T06:58:45Z shka_: pjb: well, won't work, but just because i want to control read time, and not macroexpand time
2018-03-12T06:59:07Z shka_: it took me a moment to realize what is going on!
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2018-03-12T07:32:10Z smokeink: http://simplifience.com/intro/names.html The trouble with names.  "Quantum physics is treated like a branch of dark magic"
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2018-03-12T07:56:32Z hajovonta: hello
2018-03-12T07:56:57Z smokeink: hi
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2018-03-12T08:07:32Z republican_devil: is lisp better than haskell prolog smalltalk and gonga.com/ada and forth?
2018-03-12T08:07:35Z republican_devil: why?
2018-03-12T08:09:28Z jackdaniel: comparing languages this way is silly
2018-03-12T08:09:35Z hajovonta: it is better because lisp is only 4 characters and the others are more
2018-03-12T08:09:36Z jackdaniel: all languages have their own strengths and weaknesses
2018-03-12T08:10:33Z smokeink: hajovonta: good one :D
2018-03-12T08:11:01Z jackdaniel: for instance: haskell has static typing and common lisp has dynamic typing (both have strong typing). whichever you prefer depends on number of factors:
2018-03-12T08:11:39Z jackdaniel: problem at hand, your own experience, understanding of these concepts (or lack of this understanding, than you will probably stick to what you know) etc
2018-03-12T08:12:22Z jackdaniel: same goes for object oriented programming: in smalltalk the main actor is the object, while in common lisp it is the function
2018-03-12T08:12:58Z jackdaniel: both approaches are perfectly valid and prove to be a good abstraction for programming
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2018-03-12T08:13:51Z jackdaniel: but you may despise oop and none of these approaches convince you, you want less syntetic abstraction - then you may prefer forth
2018-03-12T08:14:18Z hajovonta: lisp is the best because it is the oldest of them. Lisp dates back to 1959.
2018-03-12T08:14:19Z jackdaniel: divagations like that may take whole day long, so I'll stop at these few examples
2018-03-12T08:14:26Z hajovonta: old is gold.
2018-03-12T08:14:47Z hajovonta: some would say it's "proven"
2018-03-12T08:16:33Z jackdaniel: thanks, when I look at it "proven" fits better to me too
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2018-03-12T08:16:48Z hajovonta: :)
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2018-03-12T08:26:44Z pjb: shka_: read-time is also easy to deal with.  it's when you call compile-file or load…
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2018-03-12T08:27:08Z pjb: (let ((*foo* 42)) (compile-file "source")) (let ((*foo* 42)) (load "source"))
2018-03-12T08:27:58Z pjb: shka: you can also write #.(progn (defparameter *foo* 42) nil) in the source file.
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2018-03-12T08:34:49Z pjb: republican_devil: check http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code for a comparison of programming languages.
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2018-03-12T08:36:11Z loke: jackdaniel: There are languages with very fel (if any) strengths though.
2018-03-12T08:36:21Z loke: s/fel/few/
2018-03-12T08:42:06Z jackdaniel: yes, but sometimes (even most of the time!) it is hard to compare languages
2018-03-12T08:42:24Z jackdaniel: I could risk an opinion, that so called "brainfuck" languages are useless hence worse than others
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2018-03-12T08:43:41Z loke: Not all estoeric languages are useless. Unlambda is good for learning about the SKI combinators. Brainfuck is a toy, and quite fun. Others are not even useful for that. :-)
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2018-03-12T08:44:59Z jack_rabbit: That's back to the argument over languages. Probably rather than trying to objectively judge languages, it's better to view them subjectively (which I think was jackdaniel's point)
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2018-03-12T08:45:52Z jack_rabbit: There are a few factors that go into deciding what the best language is for a particular project. It's hard to compare languages on their own without these constraints.
2018-03-12T08:50:48Z flip214: there are different dimensions along which languages can be positioned. amount of syntax, extensibility, broadth of library ecosystem, etc.
2018-03-12T08:51:10Z flip214: and some of these dimensions can only be judged on a (use)case-by-case basis
2018-03-12T08:51:52Z flip214: for a quick and dirty text extraction I still like to use perl; but I wouldn't use it for anything that'll become more than 200 lines long.
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2018-03-12T09:10:39Z aeth: brainfuck's use isn't that it's a fun toy, it's that it's one of the easiest to implement languages that's still "useful"
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2018-03-12T09:10:59Z aeth: so e.g. people prove turing completeness by implementing a brainfuck
2018-03-12T09:12:36Z aeth: a lot of other esolangs are malicious on purpose (as parodies) and so are entirely useless for engineering. INTERCAL and Malbolge.
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2018-03-12T09:14:46Z holycow: wow.  why did i ever thimk intercal was a real thing?
2018-03-12T09:15:07Z aeth: INTERCAL has been largely replaced by Java in recent years.
2018-03-12T09:15:19Z holycow: haha!
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2018-03-12T09:20:26Z aeth: flip214 raises a good point about the length of a program. I wouldn't want to use bash for a program that's much more than a dozen lines, but for a bash program that's just a few lines, the equivalent in any other language is probably going to be hundreds. Structure can get in the way sometimes.
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2018-03-12T09:21:52Z aeth: A simple shell script sort of thing in CL is probably a 50 line overhead, and that's *after* including UIOP.
2018-03-12T09:22:41Z flip214: aeth: right. the unix shell pipe(line) is a really nice shorthand for many uses...
2018-03-12T09:23:14Z flip214: but I wouldn't call /bin/sort for sorting a list in a 3kLOC C, Perl, or Lisp program.
2018-03-12T09:23:27Z holycow: that is a very good point.  we just worked on a medium scale email migration project and i wondered if the dozen bash scrts could be done in other langages in such small code snippets
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2018-03-12T09:24:16Z jack_rabbit: These are all constraints and considerations that lead one to an appropriate language choice, I think.
2018-03-12T09:24:47Z holycow: altough i is i learned about txr before westarted
2018-03-12T09:25:27Z holycow: started even.  would have saved tons of time munging csv and other formats
2018-03-12T09:25:59Z holycow: although i wish <-- stupid keyboard
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2018-03-12T09:27:25Z holycow: txr is a bloody magic little dsl, super effective
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2018-03-12T10:22:39Z hlavaty: hi, it seems that puri doesn't decode utf-8 correctly, 8080 (> ci 127) ; bug11527
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2018-03-12T10:22:57Z hlavaty: ist puri bugtracker somewhere online?
2018-03-12T10:23:12Z hlavaty: https://github.com/lisp/com.b9.puri.ppcre/blob/master/src.lisp
2018-03-12T10:25:02Z hlavaty: i find it strange, that puri is required by so many famous packages http://quickdocs.org/puri/ and this doesnt work.  am i missing something?
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2018-03-12T10:31:21Z jackdaniel: hlavaty: quri is meant to replace puri
2018-03-12T10:31:25Z jackdaniel: I think it supports utf8
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2018-03-12T10:41:50Z hlavaty: jackdaniel: is that meant to be a drop in replacement?
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2018-03-12T10:57:15Z flip214: when using parenscript, can I have an inline object?
2018-03-12T10:57:33Z flip214: the result should be like javascriptfunction({ foo: "bar"})
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2018-03-12T11:11:36Z flip214: got it.
2018-03-12T11:11:44Z flip214: (ps:ps  (ps:create :foo 1 :bar 2))
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2018-03-12T12:09:12Z cuso4: Hey!
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2018-03-12T12:11:07Z cuso4: I want to define a scalar product with the following syntax (a . b), as it is often written on paper in the physics world.
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2018-03-12T12:14:08Z cuso4: But when I look at how he macro works it doesn't seem like that is helpful at all.
2018-03-12T12:14:22Z cuso4: Would anyone mind pointing me in the right direction?
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2018-03-12T12:15:59Z cuso4: Also I know it would be much easier to write something like (. a b). But at the same time I thought it would be a fun excercise to make the notation (a . b).
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2018-03-12T12:21:48Z jmercouris: (a . b) is a notation already used in lisp
2018-03-12T12:23:31Z ecraven: you can use (a o b) or something else ;)
2018-03-12T12:23:39Z ecraven: there are several proposals for infix syntax
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2018-03-12T12:24:25Z jmercouris: also the difference between wirting (. a b) and (a . b) will not be significantly more challenging
2018-03-12T12:24:26Z flip214: also, lots of unicode characters wait for their appearance.
2018-03-12T12:24:41Z jmercouris: s/wirting/writing
2018-03-12T12:25:15Z flip214: jmercouris: that's a big difference. (¸ a b) needs nothing, (a ¸ b) at least an enclosing macro (or read-macro etc.)
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2018-03-12T12:25:53Z cuso4: the notation could be something like  <a , b> too
2018-03-12T12:26:06Z jmercouris: flip214: I know, I just don't think it's a huge challenge
2018-03-12T12:26:15Z cuso4: But anyway, I am looking more for what I sould google for to find examples of similar things
2018-03-12T12:26:17Z jmercouris: flip214: You could write a macro that just reorders them as a function call
2018-03-12T12:28:03Z flip214: jmercouris: that's what I wrote ;)
2018-03-12T12:28:47Z jmercouris: ah, sorry :D
2018-03-12T12:28:50Z jmercouris: I should read more carefully
2018-03-12T12:29:40Z cuso4: I still don't have a clue of what concepts I should up about
2018-03-12T12:29:57Z jmercouris: I think you need a basic understanding of Lisp in general
2018-03-12T12:30:19Z jmercouris: pointing you to specific concepts could help you solve this problem, but I think you should just learn about the language, and you'll figure out how to solve this problem relatively quickly
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2018-03-12T12:31:47Z jackdaniel:  minion: tell cuso4 about gentle
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2018-03-12T12:36:56Z flip214: minion: tell cuso4 about pcl
2018-03-12T12:36:56Z minion: cuso4: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-03-12T12:37:41Z jmercouris: wow, that was quite a delay
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2018-03-12T12:37:46Z cuso4: I know of that book, but I have an hour till I have to get back to studying and thought this would be a small and fun project.
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2018-03-12T12:38:11Z cuso4: Ain't got time for a whole book this week
2018-03-12T12:40:24Z jackdaniel: I think that you won't grok macros over the week (especially with this attitude), but I wish you that I'm mistaken
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2018-03-12T12:42:59Z cuso4: Oh, I didn't mean that it is a bad book and that I am not planning to read it. It is just that I have exams this week.
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2018-03-12T12:43:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not suggesting you say that, just noticing that you don't have time / you are reluctant to look in the literature
2018-03-12T12:44:07Z jackdaniel: explanations on IRC usually suck unless you already know something
2018-03-12T12:45:04Z jackdaniel: add above statements and you end up with lack of the subject understanding on your exam
2018-03-12T12:45:33Z jmercouris: I don't think they have a Lisp exam this week
2018-03-12T12:46:15Z cuso4: Haha no! just some good old math.
2018-03-12T12:48:51Z bnntt: Just wondering if anyone can recommend a good book for learning common lisp? I'm a CS student and want to learn it in my spare time
2018-03-12T12:49:23Z jmercouris: minion: tell bnntt about pcl
2018-03-12T12:49:23Z minion: bnntt: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-03-12T12:50:03Z bnntt: Thanks, I'll check it out!
2018-03-12T12:50:54Z jmercouris: best of luck! if you get stuck, feel free to ask questions here
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2018-03-12T12:51:26Z jmercouris: bnntt: I also highly suggest https://portacle.github.io
2018-03-12T12:52:57Z bnntt: Thanks, that should be good for running on campus computers etc
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2018-03-12T12:58:44Z jackdaniel: he already left :( PAIP is also great for learning CL
2018-03-12T12:58:49Z jackdaniel: and it is freely available now
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2018-03-12T13:02:20Z pjb: cuso4: (. a b) is not valid syntax.  You would have to write (\. a b) or (|.| a b)  ; once you escape the symbol named ".", you can also use it in infix position of you would like: (a \. b).
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2018-03-12T13:03:27Z pjb: cuso4: alternatively, you can define a reader macro, for example, $ that would parse a LaTeX expression.  $ a \cdot b $ --> (cdot a b)
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2018-03-12T13:03:53Z pjb: cuso4: ok, you can also define your own syntax, with your reader macro…
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2018-03-12T13:06:56Z cuso4: Thank you, seems to be exactly wht I am looking or
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2018-03-12T13:06:58Z cuso4: for*
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2018-03-12T19:44:12Z Xach: Is there a consensus place to stay for ELS?
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2018-03-12T19:45:05Z phoe: Xach: I suggest you ask on the elsconf mailing list. If any place is established, it'll be established there.
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2018-03-12T20:09:22Z rme: I'm just looking at flights. It's not so easy to travel between Marbella from Seattle.
2018-03-12T20:10:28Z Xach: nor from rural maine...
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2018-03-12T20:13:32Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: are you flying from Boston ?
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2018-03-12T20:15:12Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: Probably not.
2018-03-12T20:15:17Z Xach: It is very very far from me.
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2018-03-12T20:23:39Z jmercouris: Shinmera: you wrote a irc logger in lisp iirc, right?
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2018-03-12T20:25:13Z jmercouris: aha, so https://shinmera.github.io/colleen/ is not just a bot, but a framework
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2018-03-12T20:26:23Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Colleen is outdated.
2018-03-12T20:27:09Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Well, the "Colleen project". Colleen the bot here is currently running on Maiden: http://shirakumo.github.io/maiden/
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2018-03-12T20:29:56Z Shinmera: Xach: I didn't find anything that was close, cheap, and a large hotel, which is a departure from previous years. Having a lispers hotel was quite nice.
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2018-03-12T20:31:08Z Shinmera: rme: If you land in Malaga it's just a bus ride to Marbella.
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2018-03-12T21:24:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: what about is outdated? what's the new project? has IRC somehow changed making the framework not working?
2018-03-12T21:25:31Z jmercouris: let's try that again: "What about it is outdated? What's the new project? Has IRC somehow changed making the framework invalidated?
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2018-03-12T21:26:39Z jackdaniel: outdated as in: author came up with something new (probably better) and lost interest in the predecessor
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2018-03-12T21:28:46Z jmercouris: Ok, that makes a lot more sense, hence the link to the new project
2018-03-12T21:29:02Z jmercouris: I was trying to think what about IRC has changed since the first version
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2018-03-12T21:29:43Z Bike: has the protocol changed since like... 1990?
2018-03-12T21:29:58Z jmercouris: There's a working group to update the protocol with a new verison
2018-03-12T21:30:04Z Bike: what, for real
2018-03-12T21:30:14Z jmercouris: https://ircv3.net/irc/
2018-03-12T21:30:28Z Bike: huhhhhh
2018-03-12T21:30:54Z Bike: oh, the last rfc was 2000, dumb me
2018-03-12T21:31:58Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Colleen is broken and badly designed in several respects that aren't directly related to IRC.
2018-03-12T21:32:15Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Maiden is both more sensible and a lot more ambitious in what it tries to do.
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2018-03-12T21:33:51Z jmercouris: I see, thanks for the explanation
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2018-03-12T23:12:22Z rumbler31: is IOlib, the c library, still maintained?
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2018-03-12T23:15:06Z rumbler31: and maybe this is a dumb question, but is IOlib, the CL library, a cffi wrapper for the c library? or a rewrite?
2018-03-12T23:15:07Z Xach: rumbler31: iolib, the lisp library, has a C component called libfixposix. Is that what you mean, or something else?
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2018-03-12T23:15:27Z rumbler31: well i'm not sure what I mean, I was under the impression that there was a c iolib
2018-03-12T23:15:29Z Xach: iolib the lisp library does not wrap an iolib C library.
2018-03-12T23:15:55Z Xach: rumbler31: what prompts the question?
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2018-03-12T23:16:43Z rumbler31: a friend is looking to build a product for which I thought iolib would be a good use case
2018-03-12T23:17:03Z rumbler31: although now I suspect I'm very confused and my understanding is too incomplete
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2018-03-12T23:18:52Z rumbler31: oh no, I keep getting it confused with libuv
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2018-03-12T23:23:42Z whoman:  there is a new C lib in town
2018-03-12T23:25:52Z whoman: here we go :  http://www.musl-libc.org/
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2018-03-12T23:31:31Z fe[nl]ix: whoman: where do you get your news ?
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2018-03-12T23:36:57Z rumbler31: well that looks neat nonetheless
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2018-03-13T00:26:10Z rme: I bought plane tickets to ELS.  I still need to make hotel reservations.
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2018-03-13T02:25:38Z Xach: I'm booking my stuff tomorrow.
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2018-03-13T06:10:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-13T06:10:27Z shka_: beach: good morning!
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2018-03-13T08:34:18Z phoe: Helloooooo
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2018-03-13T09:08:04Z epony: good morning people!
2018-03-13T09:08:56Z epony: the "trend" makes 50 yrs, probably why the link of alan kay's talk got mentioned recently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful
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2018-03-13T09:36:09Z johnnymacs: I don't like reading books beach
2018-03-13T09:37:33Z johnnymacs: There's not enough stack overflow questions on google for common lisp
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2018-03-13T09:48:14Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2018-03-13T09:50:37Z nydel: ha. great to wake up at 250am unable to sleep and immediately see beach being hillarious
2018-03-13T09:50:49Z smokeink: lol
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2018-03-13T13:07:46Z flip214: Right after reading "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" the next paper is "Structured Programming With Go To Statements"
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2018-03-13T13:09:33Z beach: That's pretty funny.
2018-03-13T13:10:15Z flip214: 6 years later, though
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2018-03-13T14:00:30Z Xach: i have been very happy with how helpful people are on stack overflow with CL questions
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2018-03-13T14:13:05Z jackdaniel: I've really enjoyed the post "Considered Harmful posts Considered Harmful"
2018-03-13T14:15:08Z jackdaniel: this one I think: https://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
2018-03-13T14:15:14Z jackdaniel: s/posts/essays/
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2018-03-13T14:19:33Z Bike: was the original that bad? knuth seemed pretty measured in his response
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2018-03-13T14:27:33Z lieven: dijkstra was a pretty opinioniated guy. there's a collection of his EWD memos somewhere on the web.
2018-03-13T14:27:40Z shka: Bike: arrogance is measured in minidijkstras
2018-03-13T14:27:59Z Bike: i mean, yes, i've read it, i'm wondering about the response.
2018-03-13T14:29:23Z lieven: there was a whole cargo cult movement at the time that was adamant about every construction having only one entry point and one exit point
2018-03-13T14:29:56Z lieven: so stuff like early returns out of functions etc was all forbidden
2018-03-13T14:33:37Z Shinmera: Well, CL does that too to a large part, but in a way that hides it away neatly. Explicit RETURN/-FROMs are pretty rare.
2018-03-13T14:34:32Z epony: that was the epoch of fighting "un"structured programming from fortran/basic legacy
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2018-03-13T14:35:12Z pjb: Shinmera: non-local exits are all over the place in CL.  What saves us is unwind-protect.
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2018-03-13T14:38:32Z jackdaniel: basically anything excessively used may be harmful
2018-03-13T14:38:53Z lieven: the problem generally isn't with the guy who comes up with these insights but with the management who sees it as a silver bullet that will take care of all problems.
2018-03-13T14:39:09Z lieven: especially if compliance with it can be automated
2018-03-13T14:39:28Z lieven: there was a cyclomatic complexity fad derived from it too
2018-03-13T14:39:33Z epony: in several decades language tools vendors created incompatible products for feature in an attempt to gain market share
2018-03-13T14:39:54Z lieven: where tools would flag "too complex" parts of code for you
2018-03-13T14:40:03Z epony: journalist jargon is not very productive per se
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2018-03-13T14:41:13Z epony: the opinionated nature of computer scientists is for a reason quite different than pop culture modern times
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2018-03-13T14:48:43Z beach: Second Climacs now has a gutter and it is used to show incorrect indentation: http://metamodular.com/gutter.png  Of course right now, it doesn't know how to compute indentation for DEFMETHOD and LOOP.
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2018-03-13T14:59:26Z fe[nl]ix: is there a consensus on which hotel to stay at in Marbella ?
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2018-03-13T15:00:54Z beach: Probably not.
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2018-03-13T15:02:50Z beach: We are at La Villa Marbella
2018-03-13T15:03:07Z beach: Waking distance to the conference site.
2018-03-13T15:03:45Z pjb: beach: I don't agree (and I suppose slime doesn't either) with the indications given in that gutter.png…
2018-03-13T15:04:20Z beach: I don't either.  Like I said, it doesn't know how to compute indentation for LOOP and DEFMETHOD.
2018-03-13T15:05:37Z shka: beach: what are the improvement goals for second climacs?
2018-03-13T15:05:54Z beach: "improvement goals"?
2018-03-13T15:06:00Z beach: Compared to what?
2018-03-13T15:06:08Z shka: to first climacs
2018-03-13T15:06:18Z beach: Much better support for Common Lisp editing.
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2018-03-13T15:06:37Z shka: ok, that it is admirable
2018-03-13T15:06:50Z beach: Much better parser, plus I want to plug in Cleavir so that there is program analysis at typing speed.
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2018-03-13T15:07:37Z shka: ooh, that would be cool
2018-03-13T15:08:00Z shka: slime can get you just so far...
2018-03-13T15:08:22Z beach: Indeed.
2018-03-13T15:13:23Z beach: pjb: It is not an absolute goal to be backward compatible with SLIME indentation.
2018-03-13T15:13:48Z pjb: of course.
2018-03-13T15:14:05Z pjb: There are few indents I don't agree with slime either.
2018-03-13T15:14:14Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-13T15:14:27Z beach: Especially since it doesn't really have a good idea of the structure of the code.
2018-03-13T15:15:23Z beach: It indents LET bindings as if they were forms, for example.
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2018-03-13T19:42:26Z Xach: Ok, booked for ELS travel & lodging. See you there!
2018-03-13T19:42:58Z jackdaniel: see you there \o
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2018-03-13T20:57:53Z Xach: jackdaniel: does ecl support AF_LOCAL/AF_UNIX socket stuff?
2018-03-13T20:59:00Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, api is literally the same as sbcl (minus stuff added later) - even package nickname is sb-bsd-sockets
2018-03-13T20:59:20Z jackdaniel: s/nickname/name/
2018-03-13T20:59:37Z Xach: ok
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2018-03-13T20:59:47Z Xach: I wonder who *doesn't* support AF_UNIX/AF_LOCAL
2018-03-13T20:59:59Z Xach: I can't find support for it in USOCKET
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2018-03-13T21:00:16Z Shinmera: Windows, perhaps?
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2018-03-13T21:00:49Z jackdaniel: yup, there isn't one on usocket - I wanted to add it and make PR for a long time now, but never found time to get to it
2018-03-13T21:01:04Z Xach: I guess my question is then "why does usocket not support af_unix/af_local" in the nicest way possible.
2018-03-13T21:01:21Z Xach: Is it because of OS portability issues? Implementation portability issues? Lack of someone doing it?
2018-03-13T21:01:33Z jackdaniel: I'd bet for the last one
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2018-03-13T21:02:52Z Xach: I will search and discuss
2018-03-13T21:03:22Z jackdaniel: I think there was an issue for that on usocket tracker, but I don't remember for sure
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2018-03-13T21:04:01Z jackdaniel: it seems there isn't
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2018-03-13T21:06:14Z Xach: Allegro supports it on Unix. Don't see it in the LW manual.
2018-03-13T21:07:20Z jackdaniel: it can be done on lispworks
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2018-03-13T21:07:37Z Xach: Cool. Is it in the manual somewhere?
2018-03-13T21:07:43Z Xach: (I can't always find things)
2018-03-13T21:07:47Z jackdaniel directs Xach's attention at dep-* files in portable clx in sharplispers repository
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2018-03-13T21:08:06Z Xach: oho
2018-03-13T21:08:09Z jackdaniel: I don't know lw - simply remember seeing unix-domain-sockets there
2018-03-13T21:08:16Z jackdaniel: for lispworks too
2018-03-13T21:09:03Z Xach: yikes. lots of ::. I wonder if it's changed since that was made.
2018-03-13T21:09:23Z jackdaniel: I assume fli is basically ffi
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2018-03-13T21:10:50Z Xach: yes, though comm::*socket_af_unix* makes it seem like there's some support deep inside somehow
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2018-03-13T21:11:05Z Xach: FLI is the Foreign Language Interface. I think that is possibly a nicer name than FFI.
2018-03-13T21:11:17Z Xach: FLI, you fools!
2018-03-13T21:11:30Z jackdaniel: ^_^
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2018-03-13T21:12:31Z jackdaniel: here you have less 'hacky' version of the same: https://github.com/binghe/lispworks-udp/blob/master/unix.lisp
2018-03-13T21:12:49Z jackdaniel: I'm getting back to my precious layout protocol off-by-one errors in McCLIM, laters o/
2018-03-13T21:14:26Z Xach: ok
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2018-03-13T23:00:35Z z3t0: hey all
2018-03-13T23:01:01Z Xach: Howdy z3t0
2018-03-13T23:01:14Z z3t0: Can someone direct me to a well structured project that explains how to properly write a package using ASD and quicklisp and essentially just a guide for how to properly structure a project
2018-03-13T23:01:25Z z3t0: Currently I am using quickproject:makeproject and refactoring an older project
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2018-03-13T23:01:46Z Xach: I use make-project. I think roswell also has a project-skeleton-making thing.
2018-03-13T23:02:11Z Xach: I have a page, hang on...
2018-03-13T23:02:30Z z3t0: great, thank you and much apprecited
2018-03-13T23:02:32Z z3t0: appreciated*
2018-03-13T23:02:58Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/tmp/quickstart.html
2018-03-13T23:03:58Z Xach: I'm not sure that's exactly what you're talking about, but I hope it helps.
2018-03-13T23:03:59Z Shinmera: Portacle offers M-x create-project
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2018-03-13T23:07:55Z Xach: z3t0: is there any particular area that troubles you?
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2018-03-13T23:22:41Z krwq: are there any known problems with cffi callbacks when native part calls them inside of the thread?
2018-03-13T23:23:12Z krwq: my sbcl seems to be crashing when I call any lambda inside such callback
2018-03-13T23:23:31Z krwq: might be something on my part but please let me know if you know about anything
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2018-03-13T23:32:25Z rme: I know that ccl goes to some trouble to support calling back into lisp from foreign threads.  I'm not sure what sbcl does in that case.
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2018-03-13T23:33:40Z Shinmera: Unless your SBCL is Really Old™, it should work fine.
2018-03-13T23:34:10Z Shinmera: It used to require thruption and wtimer features, but I think that's no longer necessary.
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2018-03-13T23:43:18Z krwq: Shinmera: define old - mine is 1.3.1 - so calling back works but it crashes when I try to funcall a lambda in that callback
2018-03-13T23:44:44Z Shinmera: That's from like 2015
2018-03-13T23:46:04Z Shinmera: Grepping the changelog shows changes made since then related to callbacks
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2018-03-13T23:48:45Z krwq: Shinmera: do you have any script for building from sources somewhere? last time I tried using the version from sources I was hitting various issues
2018-03-13T23:48:53Z krwq: which branch should I use?
2018-03-13T23:49:27Z krwq: my current script is doing: echo '"1.0.99.999"' > version.lisp-expr; ./make.sh --fancy; sudo ./install.sh
2018-03-13T23:49:54Z Shinmera: clone the latest tag, run make.sh --fance, run install.sh, done.
2018-03-13T23:49:59Z Shinmera: *fancy
2018-03-13T23:50:23Z krwq: ok, sounds good, will give it a shot, thank you!
2018-03-13T23:50:58Z krwq: will need to disconenct as Im on stumpwm atm
2018-03-13T23:51:58Z Xach: Yeah, if you don't use latest (which I personally find very safe), the latest release tag of the form sbcl-<version> is usually a good bet.
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2018-03-13T23:53:00Z krwq: sounds good, thanks guys! brb need to recompile and test couple of things
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2018-03-13T23:53:40Z Xach: good luck!
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2018-03-14T00:42:37Z asarch: Lisp for C programmers: "(defun main () ...) (main)" :-P
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2018-03-14T00:47:52Z rumbler31: they get 5 minutes in then forget they haven't declared any types and freak out
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2018-03-14T00:59:36Z krwq: wow - stumpwm was setting SBCL_HOME and i was wondering for a while wtf was wrong
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2018-03-14T00:59:57Z krwq: it was trying to load old sbcl core image on new sbcl
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2018-03-14T01:12:55Z krwq: ok, callbacks work correctly after upgrading sbcl - thank you Shinmera and Xach
2018-03-14T01:12:58Z whoman: ow =)
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2018-03-14T01:17:35Z vtomole: defun allows use of backquote. Why should i use defmacro?
2018-03-14T01:18:10Z Bike: you don't know what backquote does
2018-03-14T01:18:21Z vtomole: clhs backquote
2018-03-14T01:18:21Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for backquote.
2018-03-14T01:18:25Z Bike: clhs `
2018-03-14T01:18:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2018-03-14T01:18:46Z Bike: (defun foo (a) `(+ ,a 7)) now what is (foo 13)?
2018-03-14T01:19:26Z vtomole: Ok makes sense nvm. Thanks.
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2018-03-14T04:32:14Z opal: [amsg] RIP STEPHEN HAWKING
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2018-03-14T04:42:07Z shka_: RIP
2018-03-14T04:42:10Z shka_: and good morning
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2018-03-14T04:46:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-14T06:29:47Z pjb: He'll be remembered for his role in the big bang theory…
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2018-03-14T06:45:15Z easye: More interesting for me, is his contribution to the observation that the event horizon has an informational invariant.
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2018-03-14T08:12:47Z pjb: easye: have a look at: http://www.jp-petit.org/MPLA-singularite.pdf https://www.youtube.com/user/JPPETITofficiel https://www.jp-petit.org/science/Le_Modele_Cosmologique_Janus.pdf
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2018-03-14T10:56:18Z easye: pjb: Not sure what to make of _Le Modele Cosmologique_ as a text.  But certainly a good thing to read on this day of sorrow.
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2018-03-14T11:01:27Z flip214: In case anyone needs a bit of entertainment, I'd suggest "The New Cosmology" (Stanislaw Lem, short story in "A Perfect Vacuum")
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2018-03-14T11:03:08Z JuanDaugherty: or more factually I think I am buying ergodic gravity
2018-03-14T11:03:35Z JuanDaugherty: wasn't ELS announced on relatively short notice?
2018-03-14T11:04:23Z JuanDaugherty: or did the email go out a long time after everybody else knew?
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2018-03-14T11:06:54Z Shinmera: Hm?
2018-03-14T11:07:41Z Shinmera: ELS'18 was already announced at ELS'17. The final dates were announced in October'17.
2018-03-14T11:08:00Z JuanDaugherty: [cmucl-imp] [CfPart] European Lisp Symposium 2018, 16-17 April, Marbella, Spain
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2018-03-14T11:08:07Z JuanDaugherty: is the subject of the email
2018-03-14T11:08:38Z JuanDaugherty: now see it's likely just cmu
2018-03-14T11:08:41Z beach: It was announced 2017-12-20 the first time I saw it.
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2018-03-14T11:09:08Z JuanDaugherty: when i first saw thought it was a typo for the '19 one
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2018-03-14T11:09:51Z Shinmera: I don't know which mailing lists you guys are subscribed to, but https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVeU9BPT0=
2018-03-14T11:09:52Z JuanDaugherty: *entropic gravity
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2018-03-14T11:10:35Z JuanDaugherty: i've been subscribed to cmucl for ages, was more of a hassell to cancel
2018-03-14T11:11:20Z JuanDaugherty: that email came yesterday
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2018-03-14T11:12:35Z Shinmera: Well, the authoritative source is linked on the website, which is https://lists.lrde.epita.fr/listinfo/elsconf
2018-03-14T11:12:41Z JuanDaugherty: Didier Verna originated and then the list sent it, possibly after an unknown delay
2018-03-14T11:13:17Z JuanDaugherty: so maybe it was just stuck in their list and something dislodged it
2018-03-14T11:13:33Z JuanDaugherty: because it's not cmucl specific in the body
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2018-03-14T14:05:43Z idurand: Shinmera: I registered to ELS this morning, never got a confirmation email though, is it normal?
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2018-03-14T14:08:01Z Shinmera: No
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2018-03-14T14:08:31Z Shinmera: Did you get the green "success" message though?
2018-03-14T14:08:40Z Shinmera: On the website itself, I mean.
2018-03-14T14:08:58Z idurand: Yes, I think, saying that I would receive an email
2018-03-14T14:09:04Z Shinmera: Hm.
2018-03-14T14:09:25Z Shinmera: It should only display that if it already sent the email. Are you sure it didn't land in spam or something?
2018-03-14T14:10:48Z idurand: Not in spam, could you check whether I am registered or not please?
2018-03-14T14:11:27Z Shinmera: I can't, I don't have access to that kind of info -- only didier does.
2018-03-14T14:11:47Z idurand: I will check with him, thanks Nicolas
2018-03-14T14:12:02Z Shinmera: Sure, I hope you can get it resolved quickly. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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2018-03-14T14:53:49Z beach: Shinmera: idurand found the mail.  False alarm.
2018-03-14T14:54:03Z Shinmera: Phew!
2018-03-14T14:54:15Z beach: Yeah.
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2018-03-14T15:09:47Z borei: hi all !
2018-03-14T15:09:52Z pjb: hi
2018-03-14T15:10:12Z borei: can somebody take a look please
2018-03-14T15:10:15Z borei: https://pastebin.com/cQz28YeE
2018-03-14T15:10:23Z borei: line 16
2018-03-14T15:10:46Z borei: mvm-data already vector
2018-03-14T15:11:13Z borei: but without (vector mvm-data) it doesn't work
2018-03-14T15:11:31Z pjb: I've got only 10 lines.
2018-03-14T15:11:39Z borei: oh, sorry
2018-03-14T15:11:41Z borei: linbe 10
2018-03-14T15:11:43Z borei: line
2018-03-14T15:11:59Z pjb: a vector is not a matrix.
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2018-03-14T15:12:19Z pjb: (make-array 16) #| --> #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) |#  creates a vector of 16 elements, not a matrix (a 2D array).
2018-03-14T15:12:39Z borei: yes
2018-03-14T15:13:02Z borei: gl:uniform-matrix requires vector as last arg
2018-03-14T15:13:03Z pjb: then read the documentation of gl:uniform-matrix where is it?
2018-03-14T15:13:43Z borei: if i replace (vector mvm-data) with just mvm-data
2018-03-14T15:13:48Z borei: getting the following
2018-03-14T15:14:27Z borei:   The value 1.0 is not of type ARRAY
2018-03-14T15:14:53Z borei: but mvm-data was created as (mvm-data (make-array 16))
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2018-03-14T15:24:12Z pjb: borei: the question was for a url to the documentation of gl:uniform-matrix.  If want some help. Obnviously you cannot read the documentation so we will have to read it for you.
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2018-03-14T15:31:17Z borei: pjb: sorry about it, will return back to it, seems like i missed something
2018-03-14T15:31:58Z pjb: Still no url. If you want us to do all the work, you should pay us. The url, or bitcoins!
2018-03-14T15:32:27Z borei: lol
2018-03-14T15:32:56Z pjb: and now I have to go to an errand.  bbl
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2018-03-14T15:33:28Z borei: no no
2018-03-14T15:33:38Z borei: seems like i found issue
2018-03-14T15:34:16Z borei: damn
2018-03-14T15:35:00Z borei: i got stuck with it since yesterday
2018-03-14T15:35:33Z Pierpa_: This is called a cliffhanger...
2018-03-14T15:35:36Z borei: and now you just triggered another way to think about problem
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2018-03-14T15:38:30Z jackdaniel: no bitcoins? :c
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2018-03-14T15:44:35Z borei: the problem was gl:uniform-matrix is expecting array of flattened matrices
2018-03-14T15:45:10Z borei: but glUniformMatrix4fv (the documentation i was reading) - just array of float numbers
2018-03-14T15:45:39Z borei: it's not one-to-on matching between cl-opengl and OpenGL
2018-03-14T15:46:16Z borei: thanks for help guys !
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2018-03-14T16:02:38Z whoman: ew, sorry to hear that borei
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2018-03-14T16:22:21Z __rumbler31: borei: good find.  maybe make your efforts the subject of a blog post?
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2018-03-14T16:53:31Z Shinmera: borei: Note that you can always use the direct GL functions from the %gl package.
2018-03-14T16:54:19Z Shinmera: borei: Also, as far as I know, gl:uniform-matrix-4/3/2fv also just takes a flat CL array of data.
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2018-03-14T17:05:54Z jmercouris: why does Lisp not appear here: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018?
2018-03-14T17:06:14Z jmercouris: I didn't see it in any of the charts, are there really so few people using Lisp?
2018-03-14T17:06:56Z Xach: So few
2018-03-14T17:08:20Z jmercouris: Do we have any way to estimate how many people are using it? any proxy measures?
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2018-03-14T17:12:05Z whoman: that page makes my system swap. noty
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2018-03-14T17:24:37Z pjb: jmercouris: count the users in #lisp
2018-03-14T17:24:52Z pjb: jmercouris: something like:  /who #lisp   IIRC>
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2018-03-14T17:25:36Z whoman: that is probably an innacurate metric
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2018-03-14T17:26:32Z pjb: count the number of "lisp" companies, multiply by 5.
2018-03-14T17:27:16Z pjb: World wide, I'd guess there are between 60 and 100 companies using lisp.  between 300 and 500 CLispers, worldwide.
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2018-03-14T17:27:54Z whoman: i would increase it, there are many hobbiests, unknown bloggers, nonirc users, obscure github projects
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2018-03-14T17:29:11Z whoman: counting up common-lisp.net projects, github.com, gitlab, bitbucket, savannah, ... i would say less than half for sure are not employed for doing lisp , and less so at actual lisp companies
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2018-03-14T17:40:02Z whoman: i dont remember who shared this link with me, but i want to thank them, i am reading it now : https://wps.aw.com/wps/media/objects/5771/5909832/PDF/Luger_0136070477_1.pdf
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2018-03-14T17:48:57Z bjorkintosh: whoman, thanks in turn for re-sharing it.
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2018-03-14T17:51:04Z whoman: np ^_^ i like the diagram there on page 25 (10?)
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2018-03-14T17:52:14Z bjorkintosh: what's the diagram called?
2018-03-14T17:53:27Z whoman: Figure 1.1 Levels of a Knowledge-B
2018-03-14T17:53:29Z whoman: ased System, adapted from Newell
2018-03-14T17:53:31Z whoman: (1982).
2018-03-14T17:53:33Z whoman: i cant find it on google
2018-03-14T17:53:50Z whoman: and i dont want to break any copyright stuff =)
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2018-03-14T17:56:15Z bjorkintosh: ah. page 9 of the book.
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2018-03-14T18:02:27Z didi: Beware of (gethash key hash-table (much-garbage-and-cpu-cycles)).
2018-03-14T18:02:52Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: can you get log5 into sharplispers ? Gary King can't transfer ownership on his own, see https://github.com/gwkkwg/log5/issues/2#issuecomment-372848806
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2018-03-14T18:04:48Z Xach: Ok
2018-03-14T18:05:44Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I will add it to my todo! Will possibly be done in 7 or 8 hours
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2018-03-14T18:05:58Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2018-03-14T18:06:44Z fe[nl]ix: the Github docs say "Users must have repository creation permissions within the receiving organization before they can transfer a repository that they individually own"
2018-03-14T18:06:53Z fe[nl]ix: this seems unduly restrictive to me
2018-03-14T18:07:03Z fe[nl]ix: strange
2018-03-14T18:08:03Z fe[nl]ix: is there an issue tracker for Github itself ?
2018-03-14T18:08:43Z Shinmera: Seems good to me. Otherwise you could just push garbage repositories into other orgs, right?
2018-03-14T18:09:13Z fe[nl]ix: no, the owner would initiate a transfer request
2018-03-14T18:09:41Z Shinmera: Ah, well, that would be even better of course.
2018-03-14T18:09:43Z fe[nl]ix: and the owners of the target org would receive a notification that they can approve or reject that request
2018-03-14T18:10:17Z fe[nl]ix: which is what happens with transfers between two personal accounts
2018-03-14T18:10:48Z fe[nl]ix: when I asked Sunrin Shimura for the ownership of CIM I got an email asking me to approve the transfer
2018-03-14T18:10:51Z fe[nl]ix: and all went ok
2018-03-14T18:10:53Z shenghi: That could, and probably would, still lead to a lot of spam for popular (or unpopular) org owners.
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2018-03-14T18:11:20Z Shinmera: Not any more than filing tons of issues already would.
2018-03-14T18:11:33Z fe[nl]ix: shenghi: that's unfortunately a good point
2018-03-14T18:11:36Z jmercouris: I don't think it would lead to spam, and I think it's a good idea
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2018-03-14T18:12:33Z shenghi: Don't underestimate the collective internet's power to thoroughly abuse otherwise perfectly good ideas.
2018-03-14T18:13:27Z shenghi: Maybe a toggle (default: on) could solve that.
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2018-03-14T18:24:20Z fouric: jmercouris: really really rough estimate of Lisp usage might be https://api.github.com/search/users?q=language:Common%20Lisp
2018-03-14T18:24:42Z fouric: Not entirely sure if I actually did that right, but the results *appear* to show...624 users with Common Lisp repositories.
2018-03-14T18:26:23Z fouric: (that's obviously only a small fraction of total Lisp users, but if you compare it to the number of developers using other languages (Python, JavaScript) on the same platform then you can at least begin to get *relative* scales)
2018-03-14T18:27:14Z shenghi: That ratio doesn't look good at all :O
2018-03-14T18:27:27Z whoman: time to go on strike
2018-03-14T18:28:04Z fouric: 1.5M JS devs ):
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2018-03-14T18:29:00Z whoman: speaking of ratios, though
2018-03-14T18:29:06Z whoman: lispers are generally 10-20 year devs
2018-03-14T18:29:11Z whoman: js devs are like 0-1yr
2018-03-14T18:29:38Z fouric: You could get slightly higher numbers if you settle for "Lisp-family" developers (as opposed to CL), because then you get to include Clojure (9.4K), Scheme (1.5K), and Racket (1.5K).
2018-03-14T18:29:52Z whoman: js devs get fresh idea from teacher and markets it on their parents money, lispers are more like nerd monks
2018-03-14T18:30:12Z whoman: i thought elisp was the highest on github? =P
2018-03-14T18:30:41Z fouric: Yes, although I think that more people use it for tweaking Emacs than actual *development*.
2018-03-14T18:31:24Z stacksmith: Good day.  Could someone explain the intent and meaning of / // /// in REPL?  I am somewhat confounded by (floor 3 1) and '(3 0) both resulting in / of (3 0)...
2018-03-14T18:31:27Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ping re semaphores
2018-03-14T18:32:04Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: no, both do not result in (3 0)
2018-03-14T18:32:14Z jackdaniel: first results in (3 0) and second one results in ((3 0))
2018-03-14T18:32:23Z stacksmith: right, right...
2018-03-14T18:32:26Z jackdaniel: basically / returns you a list of values returned by last statement typed in repl
2018-03-14T18:32:40Z jackdaniel: try (values 1 2 3 '(4 5))
2018-03-14T18:32:47Z whoman: what! in ielm ?!?
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2018-03-14T18:32:48Z jackdaniel: and / , that will give you (1 2 3 (4 5))
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2018-03-14T18:33:25Z jackdaniel: from other fancy stuff try typing: (let () -) ; in repl
2018-03-14T18:34:00Z jackdaniel: and try + (which returns last form typed in repl)
2018-03-14T18:34:03Z stacksmith: jackdaniel: so it's for reaching multiple values?
2018-03-14T18:34:12Z jackdaniel: ? yes
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2018-03-14T18:34:17Z jackdaniel:   / ? yes
2018-03-14T18:34:57Z stacksmith: Ok. I think I was just confusled by repeatedly hitting / - which of course makes sense.
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2018-03-14T18:35:42Z Xach: heh
2018-03-14T18:36:40Z pjb: Try: (values / /) ; repeatitively.
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2018-03-14T18:36:55Z whoman: try (setq nil t) ; justonce
2018-03-14T18:37:27Z pjb: whoman: nil is a constant variable. CL implementation should signal an error.
2018-03-14T18:37:48Z whoman: maybe it was in elisp this happened to me.. =P
2018-03-14T18:37:51Z pjb: all the CL I have installed on this system do.
2018-03-14T18:37:57Z stacksmith: The value of / is a list of the most recent values that were printed... Do they really mean vaules returned from eval?
2018-03-14T18:37:57Z pjb: whoman: this is #lisp, not ##lisp.
2018-03-14T18:38:17Z pjb: whoman: perhaps you could upgrade emacs-cl which has bitrotten, and try in it?
2018-03-14T18:38:24Z Xach: stacksmith: in the REPL it is equivalent.
2018-03-14T18:38:25Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: it is REPL-only thing, you can't depend on it anywhere else
2018-03-14T18:38:32Z jackdaniel: unless you explicitly program it
2018-03-14T18:38:47Z Xach: it flows from E to P to /
2018-03-14T18:38:53Z whoman: um pjb this is #lisp not ##lisp
2018-03-14T18:38:54Z Xach: or maybe somewhere else
2018-03-14T18:39:02Z pjb: But notice that it implies that / // /// + ++ +++ * ** *** and - are declared special!
2018-03-14T18:39:21Z pjb: So if you use those variables in your program, you get only dynamic variables.
2018-03-14T18:39:45Z pjb: whoman: https://cliki.net/IRC
2018-03-14T18:40:36Z pjb: On the other hand, by default (let ((% 'foo) (^ 'bar))  '(% ^ are lexical variables)).
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2018-03-14T18:41:11Z stacksmith: pjb: yes, having a hard time imagining when binding these makes sense...
2018-03-14T18:41:40Z stacksmith: I suppose you could 'borrow' the REPL for a bit...
2018-03-14T18:41:47Z pjb: (let* ((a 42) (b 33) (- (- a b))) (format t "The difference is ~A" -))
2018-03-14T18:45:26Z pjb: Since you can use almost anything to name variables, there's no reason why not use it when it make sense.
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2018-03-14T18:45:55Z stacksmith: pjb: Sure.  I meant binding in a meaningful to the REPL way.
2018-03-14T18:46:17Z pjb: You can have variables named x^2+2x+3, 3n, <, +, et.c
2018-03-14T18:46:37Z pjb: Well, if you cannot call the REPL itself, there's indeed no point to bind those variables.
2018-03-14T18:47:00Z pjb: And even if you can call the REPL, it probably has its own binding, so yours will be shadowed.
2018-03-14T18:48:08Z pjb: You'd have to have an open REPL, like com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:rep
2018-03-14T18:48:41Z pjb: But notice that com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl doesn't actually bind them, rep calls %rep that sets them.
2018-03-14T18:49:16Z pjb: So it would make sense to (let (* ** *** + ++ +++ / // /// -) (repl) (use-history-variable-after-repl)).
2018-03-14T18:49:36Z stacksmith: pjb: yes, thanks, I saw that.  It makes no sense to bind them, as they need to expire in a natural way.
2018-03-14T18:49:53Z whoman: sum long sim bulls
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2018-03-14T18:54:07Z stacksmith: Did the old Lisp Machine place less emphasis on 'printing' in the REPL?  Given the closer relationship to sexps and structured editing I can envision a REPL that is mostly an evaluator that returns sexps that can be manipulated more directly, for instance.
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2018-03-14T18:55:07Z pjb: stacksmith: with presentations I guess.
2018-03-14T18:55:33Z stacksmith: I guess I am trying to figure out if converting to and from text was always the case...
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2018-03-14T18:56:05Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: in slime you have return values being presentations
2018-03-14T18:56:18Z jackdaniel: try to right-click on the object - you'll see you can for instance inspect it
2018-03-14T18:56:35Z stacksmith: jackdaniel: yeah, it's pretty weak and makes me wonder if it's a lame attempt at something much nicer.
2018-03-14T18:56:50Z stacksmith: Like internal support for operating on forms directly.
2018-03-14T18:57:10Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't call it lame given it used different language
2018-03-14T18:57:16Z jackdaniel: I'm constantly suprised how far slime got
2018-03-14T18:57:27Z jackdaniel: but yes, this is mimicing of presentations
2018-03-14T18:57:38Z stacksmith: Well, no disrespect intended, it's pretty amazing.  But...
2018-03-14T18:58:00Z jackdaniel: presentations have objects underneath, not forms
2018-03-14T18:58:05Z stacksmith: I always feel like I am just getting a tease.
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2018-03-14T18:58:25Z jackdaniel: of course object may be a form, but you know what I mean
2018-03-14T18:58:31Z stacksmith: yeah...
2018-03-14T18:59:08Z stacksmith: I often wish that forms had a little more substance.
2018-03-14T19:00:00Z jackdaniel: if you wish to tinker with presentations, check out mcclim
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2018-03-14T19:00:57Z stacksmith: I love the idea of mcclim, but in practice I find it hard to look at, especially the way fonts are antialiased.  Although I haven't seen it in a year or so...
2018-03-14T19:01:32Z jackdaniel: PRs are welcome ,)
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2018-03-14T19:02:20Z stacksmith: I have a pretty nice minimal implementation of XCB and FT2 rendering really nice text in X - I've been meaning to see how hard it's to add a backend...
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2018-03-14T19:03:27Z stacksmith: I know it's a little antithetical in not being pure Lisp, but it sure looks good and any machine that has X has the libs.
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2018-03-14T19:11:05Z didi: Do people use DOLIST's tags? I was thinking of making my DOOBJECTS more like DOLIST, but I don't remember even using the tags.
2018-03-14T19:11:18Z didi: s/even/ever
2018-03-14T19:12:24Z didi: Go tags, I mean. Maybe making (return ...) work would be useful.
2018-03-14T19:12:54Z jackdaniel: didi: for the sole reason that "DO" constructs usually have implicit tagbody is a good argument to add it in your macro
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2018-03-14T19:13:20Z didi: jackdaniel: Hum. I see.
2018-03-14T19:13:35Z jackdaniel: "least suprising thing to do" principle
2018-03-14T19:13:39Z didi: Right.
2018-03-14T19:13:44Z jackdaniel: notice the pun, I did put DO in there
2018-03-14T19:13:59Z didi: :-)
2018-03-14T19:14:18Z jackdaniel: (ah, missed occasion to stack pun on pun, I should have said "I didi put DO in there" ;-)
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2018-03-14T19:14:31Z didi: :-)
2018-03-14T19:14:59Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment ← ftr
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2018-03-14T19:52:17Z jmercouris: fouric: interesting, thanks for the idea
2018-03-14T19:52:25Z jmercouris: could be a good proxy measure
2018-03-14T19:52:46Z jmercouris: unfortunately we do not know what percentage of lisp users are using github, as many of them are using gitlab it seems
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2018-03-14T19:56:10Z whoman:  whoman | counting up common-lisp.net projects, github.com, gitlab, bitbucket, savannah, ... i would say less than half for sure are not employed for doing lisp , and less so at actual lisp companies
2018-03-14T19:56:19Z whoman: secret military work
2018-03-14T19:56:23Z whoman: unpublished academic stuff
2018-03-14T19:56:41Z whoman: too many unknowns, like trying to count all species of bats
2018-03-14T19:58:18Z jackdaniel: given you have the precise number, what would you do with it?
2018-03-14T19:58:21Z whoman: autocad users, gimp script-fu; i would count those kind of things even being non-CL but they are engineers and artists who might be awesome at coding with sexp without even realising, and if set down with a CL REPL may be quite surprising
2018-03-14T19:58:30Z whoman: hehe. good point
2018-03-14T19:58:34Z bjorkintosh: one would tweet the precise number.
2018-03-14T19:58:35Z bjorkintosh: duh!
2018-03-14T19:58:50Z fouric: jackdaniel: wikipedia doesn't seem to be giving me a page on the type of "presentations" that you're describing
2018-03-14T19:59:05Z jmercouris: I don't think knowing the exact number is very important, but having a good estimate is
2018-03-14T19:59:06Z fouric: Do you have a link to a document I could read?
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2018-03-14T19:59:17Z jmercouris: you can see whether the community is growing or shrinking and track your efforts to increase it
2018-03-14T19:59:20Z whoman: and accounting someone just giving up on lisp or losing his hands/eyes/life, or someone just tripping on a rock on the street and seeing an akward symbol that looks like a lambda that his subconscious relates to later at home and he finds CL ....
2018-03-14T19:59:23Z jmercouris: assuming you have such a goal
2018-03-14T19:59:34Z fouric does
2018-03-14T19:59:46Z phoe: fouric: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23.html#_1124
2018-03-14T19:59:50Z fouric: Thanks!
2018-03-14T19:59:54Z epony: calendar note: Wed Mar 14 LISP introduced, 1960
2018-03-14T20:00:00Z whoman: why not just always increase efforts to increase, bountifully ? be fruitful and multiply
2018-03-14T20:00:02Z phoe: fouric: CLIM2 spec is awesome.
2018-03-14T20:00:15Z jmercouris: epony: happy lisp day!
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2018-03-14T20:00:21Z fouric: :DDD
2018-03-14T20:00:22Z epony: happy
2018-03-14T20:00:24Z whoman: whoa
2018-03-14T20:00:25Z jmercouris: whoman: where are you going with this?
2018-03-14T20:00:35Z fouric: why celebrate pi day when you could celebrate something better
2018-03-14T20:00:36Z epony: I dream of a lispmachine
2018-03-14T20:00:38Z jmercouris: I don't see what youre trying to say exactly
2018-03-14T20:00:45Z fouric: lambda is a prettier letter anyway
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2018-03-14T20:01:04Z fouric: phoe: On that recommendation, I'll add it to my reading list. Thank you again!
2018-03-14T20:01:12Z phoe: fouric: <3
2018-03-14T20:01:21Z whoman: jmercouris: response to "you can see whether the community is growing or shrinking and track your efforts to increase it "
2018-03-14T20:01:25Z fouric: phoe: (< 3)
2018-03-14T20:01:36Z whoman: why would you stop efforts knowing its "big enough" or "increasing at an acceptable rate" ?
2018-03-14T20:01:48Z jmercouris: whoman: I know what you are responding to, I just don't see what you're saying
2018-03-14T20:02:03Z jmercouris: whoman: It's not about stopping at some set point, it is about tracking the efficacy of your method
2018-03-14T20:02:05Z whoman: alright, let me elaborate
2018-03-14T20:02:25Z jmercouris: if you know the growth rate, and you know what you've been doing, then you can determine what the ratio of effort/growth rate *might* be
2018-03-14T20:02:31Z whoman: how would knowing how much there is, affect the efforts to increasing that?
2018-03-14T20:02:42Z whoman: does making money get affectd by how much someone has, actually ?
2018-03-14T20:02:44Z jmercouris: we don't have infinity resources, so we must choose the most efficient path
2018-03-14T20:02:47Z epony: wikipedia page argues lisp first appeared 1958, 60 years ago, so the calendar note may be off a bit
2018-03-14T20:02:58Z whoman: ohh, like analytics
2018-03-14T20:03:13Z whoman: thats a bit like herding sheep or seeding clouds i think. not an ethical art
2018-03-14T20:03:20Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: OK, let me give you two number and tell me, how different your behavior will be: there is 1000 active CL programmers vs there is 100000 active CL programmers
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2018-03-14T20:03:33Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I am not going to change my behavior, I am only interested in measuring it
2018-03-14T20:03:37Z whoman: and of all lang communities, i think lisp would be the least susceptible to that kind of practice
2018-03-14T20:03:58Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: all measurement should have a goal, otherwise it might be perceived as a wasted effort
2018-03-14T20:04:15Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: given this initial value, I will not change my behavior, I want to know the measuring technique
2018-03-14T20:04:22Z jmercouris: which *may* be a modifier to my future behavior
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2018-03-14T20:04:49Z jackdaniel doesn't understand, but good luck with figuring the actual numbers
2018-03-14T20:04:51Z whoman: chasing echoes
2018-03-14T20:05:30Z whoman: lets have a global registrar for officially licensed CL users, from grade 1 to 4
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2018-03-14T20:06:13Z whoman: we can devise the tests and trials for G1-G4 license
2018-03-14T20:06:26Z jackdaniel: better, lets make an exam which certifies to use lisp (and without the license it can't be practicioned)
2018-03-14T20:06:33Z jmercouris: Like a guild?
2018-03-14T20:06:38Z stacksmith: Yuck!
2018-03-14T20:06:39Z jackdaniel: then I'll be able to move to some other language with clear concious  ,)
2018-03-14T20:06:42Z fouric: Sure, and then when the Haskellers take over, they'll have part of their hit-list pre-made for them /s
2018-03-14T20:06:55Z whoman: then we can subdivide those levels into "percentage of symbol usage" and "application of design patterns" and "repl marksmanship" to get real accurate numbers
2018-03-14T20:06:59Z jackdaniel: conscience*
2018-03-14T20:07:11Z whoman: hehe
2018-03-14T20:07:12Z phoe: and then sell the certs for $699
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2018-03-14T20:07:16Z stacksmith: Don't forget to register gender and race on the application for certification.
2018-03-14T20:07:29Z jmercouris: I don't know, I wouldn't be that opposed to a guild
2018-03-14T20:07:31Z whoman: thumb print
2018-03-14T20:07:33Z jmercouris: though I probably wouldn't even make the cut
2018-03-14T20:07:39Z phoe: jmercouris: I tried to make a guild once
2018-03-14T20:07:44Z phoe: it died
2018-03-14T20:07:45Z oleo: lol
2018-03-14T20:07:47Z fouric: rip
2018-03-14T20:07:48Z jmercouris: I've often felt that "programmer" should be a protected term like "engineer" or something
2018-03-14T20:07:48Z whoman: i would feel like i belong to something larger than myself
2018-03-14T20:07:51Z jackdaniel: enough is enough I suppose, that should land on #lispcafe ;]
2018-03-14T20:08:03Z stacksmith: I am an artist, man!
2018-03-14T20:08:07Z phoe: whoman: I belong to something larger than myself, it's called #lisp
2018-03-14T20:08:15Z whoman: what about "hacker", "coder" television programs, radio programs, education programs...
2018-03-14T20:08:27Z whoman: programming is not necessarily a righteous term like Knight =)
2018-03-14T20:08:41Z stacksmith: The term 'Hacker' has been thoroughly screwed by media.
2018-03-14T20:08:46Z fouric: ^^
2018-03-14T20:08:51Z whoman: phoe: yep. tongue in cheek i think is the term here
2018-03-14T20:09:22Z whoman: what about hippy? we can just macrofy english
2018-03-14T20:09:36Z whoman: lets bring lisp into spoken language then no one has a chance
2018-03-14T20:09:41Z jackdaniel: seriously, I mean it, please move this discussion to #lispcafe
2018-03-14T20:09:47Z fouric: ^^
2018-03-14T20:09:56Z fouric: whoman: you'd enjoy being in #lispcafe anyway,
2018-03-14T20:10:06Z whoman: ah sorry i didnt see that
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2018-03-14T20:13:47Z didi: `(block nil (iterate-on-objects (lambda (,x) (tagboy ,@body)) ,objects)) did the trick.
2018-03-14T20:14:42Z didi: Although now I have to be careful with changing the definition of `iterate-on-objects'. Oh well.
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2018-03-14T20:18:20Z didi: Hum, DO* also have result-form. I should address that.
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2018-03-14T20:19:44Z stacksmith: didi: I like 'tagboy'!
2018-03-14T20:20:03Z didi: Hihi. Sorry, `tagbody'.
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2018-03-14T20:23:59Z fouric: How would one give a macro two different names? You can do (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (symbol-function 'bar)) but SYMBOL-MACRO doesn't appear to be a thing...
2018-03-14T20:24:42Z phoe: fouric: macro-function
2018-03-14T20:24:44Z phoe: clhs macro-function
2018-03-14T20:24:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
2018-03-14T20:24:51Z whoman: macro-f ... ah
2018-03-14T20:24:59Z phoe highfives whoman 
2018-03-14T20:25:00Z whoman: my PC swapped
2018-03-14T20:25:04Z whoman clap !
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2018-03-14T20:25:42Z fouric: Oh! Thank you phoe and whoman. Perfect!
2018-03-14T20:25:59Z fouric: ...and I guess that makes sense, because what is a macro but a function that is run at eval-time.
2018-03-14T20:26:05Z fouric: Erm, macroexpansion-time.
2018-03-14T20:26:10Z fouric: (is that technically part of EVAL?)
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2018-03-14T20:26:42Z whoman: read, i think ?
2018-03-14T20:26:46Z phoe: read? hell no
2018-03-14T20:26:48Z whoman: or thats just reader macros
2018-03-14T20:26:49Z stacksmith: no
2018-03-14T20:26:52Z whoman: =P
2018-03-14T20:26:59Z phoe: reader macros are a part of READ, yep.
2018-03-14T20:27:09Z phoe: macros are actually closer to COMPILE rather than EVAL.
2018-03-14T20:27:16Z phoe: rather than to EVAL.*
2018-03-14T20:27:19Z stacksmith: clhs 3.1.2
2018-03-14T20:27:19Z specbot: The Evaluation Model: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm
2018-03-14T20:27:41Z phoe: but EVAL needs to do a thing called "minimal compilation" on the code that it is meant to evaluate. this minimal compilation involves macroexpansion.
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2018-03-14T20:28:29Z stacksmith: "How a compound form is processed depends on whether it is classified as a special form, a macro form, a function form, or a lambda form."
2018-03-14T20:28:34Z epony: https://archive.org/details/recursive-functions-symbolic-expressions
2018-03-14T20:29:03Z phoe: epony: aaah, the paper that started it all
2018-03-14T20:29:17Z epony: yep, wanted to see if my calendar is off
2018-03-14T20:29:31Z epony: it is a followup to a 1958 proceeding
2018-03-14T20:29:58Z epony: ref.1
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2018-03-14T20:31:44Z whoman: that paper is supposed to be 58 or no?
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2018-03-14T20:33:50Z epony: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=367199
2018-03-14T20:34:05Z epony: the archive link is the acm publication
2018-03-14T20:34:46Z epony: in it ref.1 is pointing to a paper from 1958, but this one is 1960
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2018-03-14T20:36:34Z whoman: kk. rad =)
2018-03-14T20:37:45Z epony: history of lisp http://jmc.stanford.edu/articles/lisp/lisp.pdf
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2018-03-14T20:38:16Z epony: I think that's about all the calendaring I had to do today.  Thank you for the attention.
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2018-03-14T20:41:34Z didi: OK, now with ( ...&optional result-form). So lispy :-).
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2018-03-14T21:57:14Z didi: In `dolist', I wonder why `var' is in the scope of `result-form' if it will be NIL anyway.
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2018-03-14T22:02:33Z stacksmith: Probably for consistency again.  It would be weird for list-form to be in-scope and result-form to be out.  I think.
2018-03-14T22:03:01Z didi: stacksmith: It doesn't include list-form tho.
2018-03-14T22:03:17Z didi: "The scope of the binding of var does not include the list-form, but the result-form is included."
2018-03-14T22:04:08Z stacksmith: right, I was thinking of the body...
2018-03-14T22:04:18Z didi: Oh, OK.
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2018-03-14T22:05:40Z pjb: What's funny is that it's not necessarily the same variable either.
2018-03-14T22:05:49Z pjb: Because "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations."
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2018-03-14T22:06:14Z pjb: ccl has two let form with that variable, one in the body, and one for the result form.
2018-03-14T22:06:27Z stacksmith: Hmm.  I suppose it's technically inside the iteration logic...
2018-03-14T22:06:36Z didi: pjb: Same for SBCL.
2018-03-14T22:06:37Z pjb: So (dolist (x '(1 2 3) x)) results in a warning about an unused variable x (in the body) :-)
2018-03-14T22:07:00Z pjb: s/results/signals/
2018-03-14T22:07:02Z didi: (... (let ((x nil)) x result-form))
2018-03-14T22:07:20Z pjb: declare ignorable x
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2018-03-14T22:07:48Z pjb: I guess the point is to give the result-form a temp variable…
2018-03-14T22:08:00Z didi: I guess it can't be ignored because result-form might want to poke it.
2018-03-14T22:08:05Z pjb: Or just to be compatible with some historical dolist macro.
2018-03-14T22:11:49Z vtomole: How do I do file io in quicklisp? When I try to open and close a file outside my local-project directory, I get " There is no applicable method for the generic function   #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION SB-GRAY::PCL-CLOSE (2)> when called with arguments   (NIL)."
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2018-03-14T22:15:42Z vtomole: Looks like an SBCL thing : https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/30611811/. I'll look more into it.
2018-03-14T22:17:10Z Xach: vtomole: i don't really understand the question. quicklisp does not normally get involved in file io.
2018-03-14T22:17:35Z Xach: vtomole: Can you share code that gives you that error?
2018-03-14T22:17:49Z vtomole: That's what I figured hense my saying that it might be on SBCL's end.
2018-03-14T22:18:10Z Xach: vtomole: I don't think it is an SBCL problem either.
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2018-03-14T22:18:27Z Xach: vtomole: Are you able to share the code that gives the error?
2018-03-14T22:19:03Z vtomole: (defun compiler (code output)   "Reads code file and compiles each expression into output file"   (let ((in (open code :if-does-not-exist nil)) (out (open output :if-does-not-exist :create :direction :output :if-exists :supersede)).......
2018-03-14T22:19:07Z vtomole: (compiler "epr.eg" "test.eg")
2018-03-14T22:20:11Z Xach: vtomole: do you at some point call (close in)?
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2018-03-14T22:20:44Z vtomole: Yup. I have a loop that goes through the file and closes once the loop is done.
2018-03-14T22:21:15Z vtomole: *loop that goes through each line
2018-03-14T22:21:41Z Xach: vtomole: it seems as though you are calling CLOSE on a thing that is nil, and giving the error.
2018-03-14T22:21:55Z Xach: vtomole: can you share more of the code through some paste service? like perhaps all the code?
2018-03-14T22:23:38Z vtomole: Sure. Hmm.. no more pastelisp? http://paste.lisp.org/
2018-03-14T22:24:01Z Xach: no more paste.lisp.org
2018-03-14T22:24:04Z Xach: i use gist.github.com
2018-03-14T22:24:42Z vtomole: https://gist.github.com/vtomole/95665fa690eabd85afe28915cbc51923
2018-03-14T22:26:03Z vtomole: It only works when I am in local-projects/my-project
2018-03-14T22:26:12Z Xach: vtomole: the problem is you try to close IN even if it is NIL
2018-03-14T22:26:33Z vtomole: ah i see
2018-03-14T22:26:36Z Xach: vtomole: i think it would be worth arranging things so that you can use WITH-OPEN-FILE.
2018-03-14T22:26:49Z vtomole: Sure. Thank you.
2018-03-14T22:27:36Z Xach: and :if-exists :error would be fairly normal if you only want to proceed on a file that exists
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2018-03-14T23:23:13Z vtomole: With respect to a shebang script "#!/usr/bin/sbcl --script (ql:quickload :eagle)", I get "Package QL does not exist." When I run it.
2018-03-14T23:25:29Z Shinmera: init files like sbclrc are ignored in script mode.
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2018-03-14T23:28:54Z vtomole: Make sense. idk how i should approach in that case. I don't want to call  sbcl --noinform  --eval
2018-03-14T23:29:40Z Shinmera: Load Quicklisp manually, or use ASDF only.
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2018-03-14T23:35:40Z vtomole: @Shinmera Thank you.
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2018-03-15T00:25:03Z drmeister: I started porting maxima to clasp. I had to add core:make-unspecial. Does anyone know anything about maxima - should I anticipate any trouble?
2018-03-15T00:25:35Z Bike: are you using the one that's somewhat portable or the original
2018-03-15T00:25:49Z drmeister: I want to translate my Mathematica code to lisp+maxima
2018-03-15T00:26:13Z drmeister: I don’t know - good question
2018-03-15T00:26:29Z drmeister: I’ll check when I can
2018-03-15T00:26:43Z Bike: the original maxima is old and weird
2018-03-15T00:26:49Z Bike: and had gcl specific stuff i think
2018-03-15T00:27:14Z drmeister: This code uses symbol properties like crazy
2018-03-15T00:28:17Z Bike: https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/embeddable-maxima is what i'm thinking of
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2018-03-15T00:30:34Z didi: Hum, passing DECLARE forms to my own macros isn't easy. The compiler complains about evaluating them. I see that SBCL has a function just to separate DECLARE forms from body. I will try to piggyback some build-in construct.
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2018-03-15T00:31:12Z Bike: alexandria has
2018-03-15T00:31:16Z Bike: parse-body i think it's called?
2018-03-15T00:31:18Z Bike: something like that
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2018-03-15T00:31:40Z didi: Bike: Thank you. SBCL calls it `parse-body' too.
2018-03-15T00:31:49Z drmeister: Bike: that looks great! I’m not using that one - so it must be the older one
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2018-03-15T00:32:41Z drmeister: I must by using the older one
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2018-03-15T00:38:21Z didi: Can I have a sequence of DECLARE forms?
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2018-03-15T00:39:19Z Bike: Yea
2018-03-15T00:39:30Z didi: Bike: Nice. Thanks.
2018-03-15T00:39:38Z Bike: also, they're not forms, to be pedantic
2018-03-15T00:40:00Z didi: Oh, they are not? Sorry. What are they?
2018-03-15T00:40:09Z Bike: since they're not evaluated. "declare expressions" or just "declarations"
2018-03-15T00:40:17Z didi: Cool. Thank you.
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2018-03-15T00:53:07Z didi: Heh. TIL SBCL dislikes (defun foo () "foo" "bar" "baz").
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2018-03-15T00:54:30Z whoman: how come?
2018-03-15T00:54:41Z Xach: too many docstrings!
2018-03-15T00:54:44Z didi: ^
2018-03-15T00:55:01Z Xach: I think I have mused and fussed on this issue in the past
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2018-03-15T00:57:15Z whoman: ohh
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2018-03-15T01:01:23Z didi: Looking under the hood is fun :-).
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2018-03-15T01:07:11Z whoman: =) =)
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2018-03-15T01:50:42Z whoman: would it be difficult to move the : to the other side of keyword symbols?
2018-03-15T01:51:02Z whoman: oops
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2018-03-15T02:01:32Z didi: (defun foo () "foo" (declare) "bar" "baz") for fun too.
2018-03-15T02:02:17Z didi: (declare)* will do it.
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2018-03-15T02:16:28Z whoman: heh
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2018-03-15T02:28:18Z didi: Hum. Why is (eql symbol 'declare) from any package? In other words, is the symbol `declare' special?
2018-03-15T02:30:55Z didi: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/0e216468 should clarify what I mean.
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2018-03-15T02:31:56Z Bike: declare is a cl symbol.
2018-03-15T02:32:10Z Bike: both the foo and bar packages USE the cl package, so they have the same symbol from cl.
2018-03-15T02:32:16Z didi: Bike: Ah, cool.
2018-03-15T02:32:41Z didi: Thank you, Bike.
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2018-03-15T02:35:18Z whoman: Shinmera: whats a 'subject' in trial ?
2018-03-15T02:37:20Z whoman: "KCL is notable in that it was implemented from scratch, outside of the standard committee, solely on the basis of the specification. It was one of the first Common Lisp implementations ever, and exposed a number of holes and mistakes in the specification that had gone unnoticed."
2018-03-15T02:39:12Z didi: Curious: Does anyone define a package and doesn't USE the cl package?
2018-03-15T02:41:07Z Bike: occasionally.
2018-03-15T02:41:19Z Bike: either there's a replacement, or it's a package with no code written in it.
2018-03-15T02:42:15Z Bike: e.g. closer2mop defeines a "closer-common-lisp" package that you're supposed to use instead of cl.
2018-03-15T02:42:31Z didi: A replacement, interesting.
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2018-03-15T02:45:23Z didi: Hum. Instead of loading alexandria, one could write a replacement for cl with all the goodies.
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2018-03-15T02:46:35Z Bike: for alexandria it's unnecessary, because it doesn't conflict with cl.
2018-03-15T02:46:42Z didi: True.
2018-03-15T02:47:34Z rumbler31: whoman: hey, that part about function typing last night?
2018-03-15T02:47:58Z rumbler31: whoman: you can probably get pretty good results by defining a union of function pointers.....
2018-03-15T02:48:30Z rumbler31: that way the compiler might let you more easily pass functions of a variety of signatures to higher order functions.  maybe.
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2018-03-15T02:48:47Z whoman: im talking about this again today too, a lot of stuff can be done with C+funptr; even hierarchical object system seems unecessarily complex for most tasks
2018-03-15T02:48:58Z didi: I guess a replacement must be a super set of CL.
2018-03-15T02:49:09Z whoman: organizational nightmare, especially while still designing. flat naming should be enough if we are skillful with our words and letters
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2018-03-15T03:00:46Z stylewarning: Hey all: Can I unsafely turn a byte array into an array of complex double float, unportably without copying in SBCL?
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2018-03-15T03:53:14Z stylewarning: another question: Is there a way to get the raw unfill-pointered array of an array with a fill-pointer?
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2018-03-15T03:56:16Z stylewarning: I think ARRAY-STORAGE-VECTOR should work.
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2018-03-15T04:38:51Z whoman: rumbler31: hehe, look at that union here, http://tromey.com/blog/?p=999
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2018-03-15T05:04:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-15T05:05:44Z epony: Good morning, beach!
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2018-03-15T05:38:26Z johnnymacs: Is there a lib for handling de bruijns notation
2018-03-15T05:38:59Z beach: Good question.  I haven't seen one.
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2018-03-15T05:39:12Z beach: Sounds like you have a project for yourself.
2018-03-15T05:40:01Z johnnymacs: I am thinking I would really like to write in common lisp but then I cant take my code and use it in emacs
2018-03-15T05:40:15Z johnnymacs: like what if I make a cool thing with hash tables and then I have to hand compile it to emacs lisp
2018-03-15T05:40:46Z beach: Emacs has a Common Lisp package these days.  Write it in a subset that will work in both Emacs and Common Lisp.
2018-03-15T05:41:08Z johnnymacs: That's kind of like the madness of posix compliant shellscripts
2018-03-15T05:41:48Z johnnymacs: I was think of making a similar sort of domain specific language
2018-03-15T05:41:55Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-15T05:44:26Z johnnymacs: I am thinking of a DSL that is meant to pass code freely between scheme lisp and elisp. It would use the lambda calculus for the logic programming and hash tables to manage memory. In scheme you would have to use hash tables to implement an immutable tree
2018-03-15T05:45:23Z johnnymacs: I've got a lambda calculus interpreter that interprets de bruijns
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2018-03-15T05:45:55Z johnnymacs: But it shouldn't be necessary in languages that already have suitable lambdas
2018-03-15T05:46:25Z whoman: hmmm. hi beach! also im in the same spot. i love both elisp and CL
2018-03-15T05:47:03Z johnnymacs: the posix thing may be the right way to go I dunno
2018-03-15T05:47:36Z whoman: ahhhh https://yoo2080.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/differences-between-common-lisp-and-emacs-lisp/
2018-03-15T05:47:49Z whoman: i've seen a lisp file once, that compiles on elisp, common lisp, and scheme
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2018-03-15T05:51:36Z whoman: i cannot find it. but it was wild; there were compiler switches and all that
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2018-03-15T06:02:08Z pjb: whoman: you would have to add reader macros to all the characters.  Some implementations use a-list for the reader macro table. Even if you only had mostly base-char in your sources, this would require several tens of memory accesses to read each character before executing your reader macro.  It would not be difficult to implement, but it would be very ugly.
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2018-03-15T06:10:30Z whoman: pjb: what do you mean, for C+CL ? or for a lisp file that compiles to scheme,cl,elisp ? ive seen that file, there were a couple of macros but it was mostly compiler switches for the parts where the langs were different
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2018-03-15T06:19:17Z pjb: whoman: to move : the other side of keyword symbols.
2018-03-15T06:19:27Z whoman: ohhh! ty ty
2018-03-15T06:19:43Z whoman: hm makes sense
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2018-03-15T06:22:07Z pjb: whoman: it would be preferable to prefix the code where you want such drastic syntactic changes with a singular reader macro.
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2018-03-15T06:22:35Z pjb: So that you can implement your own lexical and syntactic analysis more classically and cleanly, than going thru the readtable.
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2018-03-15T06:24:23Z whoman: http://lisp-lang.org/   <-- see first example clipping here. keywords are kind of hideous
2018-03-15T06:24:48Z whoman: thats 17 presses of the shift key, without snoopy-mode
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2018-03-15T06:26:42Z pjb: whoman: bad keyboard, change keyboard.  cf. xmodmap.
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2018-03-15T06:27:11Z whoman: snoopy-mode ! portable across non-x systems =)
2018-03-15T06:27:28Z pjb: or, indeed, emacs.
2018-03-15T06:27:59Z whoman: one day i realised i dont type direct digital numbers merely as often as i type all the symbols they hide under shiftmodding
2018-03-15T06:28:06Z whoman: also yes terrible keyboard
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2018-03-15T06:36:49Z pjb: whoman: you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI&t=902s
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2018-03-15T06:38:15Z pjb: whoman: also, you can trivially write an emacs command so that when you type foo: SPC, it changes it to :foo.
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2018-03-15T06:51:48Z whoman: ah whoa loud speaking, is audio required for vid ?
2018-03-15T06:52:22Z whoman: pjb: oh true! also emacs can display words/stuff that is different than whats in the buffer. forgot about that...
2018-03-15T06:52:29Z loke: lisp-lang's background is of Singapore. :-)
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2018-03-15T07:08:29Z krwq: does anyone know any library with buffer pool implementation (ideally thread-safe)
2018-03-15T07:10:34Z whoman: pjb: whoaa !!!!
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2018-03-15T07:17:39Z Shinmera: whoman: A subject is a class to which event handlers can be attached.
2018-03-15T07:18:35Z whoman: Shinmera: ah! so a passive passion, rather than an active action (object) ?
2018-03-15T07:18:48Z Shinmera: Huh?
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2018-03-15T07:44:55Z beach: Improved arrow rendering for incorrect indentation in Second Climacs: http://metamodular.com/gutter3.png  Notice that it still doesn't know how to indent DEFMETHOD and LOOP, hence the arrows in that picture.
2018-03-15T07:48:31Z phoe: beach: pretty! I like it.
2018-03-15T07:48:38Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-03-15T07:56:00Z loke: beach: That looks very nice!
2018-03-15T07:56:07Z beach: Thanks loke.
2018-03-15T07:56:26Z loke needs to test it again. Please remind me where is the official repository for second climas?
2018-03-15T07:56:47Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2018-03-15T07:56:57Z beach: But it is not really meant for general use yet.
2018-03-15T07:57:05Z beach: Let me give you a few hints, then...
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2018-03-15T07:57:43Z beach: (asdf:load-system :second-climacs-clim), then...
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2018-03-15T07:58:04Z beach: (second-climacs-clim-base:climacs)
2018-03-15T07:58:20Z beach: Not many things work, and there are several bugs still.
2018-03-15T07:58:33Z loke: Where do I find cluffer?
2018-03-15T07:59:16Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2018-03-15T07:59:17Z loke: Found ity
2018-03-15T07:59:30Z loke: Curiously I didn't find it in global github search
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2018-03-15T08:02:13Z loke: Do I need SICL too?
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2018-03-15T08:04:38Z beach: loke: I don't think so.
2018-03-15T08:04:41Z beach: Not yet.
2018-03-15T08:04:46Z loke: Actually, I do
2018-03-15T08:04:53Z loke: It needed sicl simple reader
2018-03-15T08:04:58Z beach: Oh.  Right.
2018-03-15T08:05:03Z beach: I should change that at some point.
2018-03-15T08:05:11Z beach: It should use Eclector instead.
2018-03-15T08:05:15Z loke: Is there a way to list available M-x commnads?
2018-03-15T08:06:15Z beach: I don't remember.  If there is, then it is in the ESA library.
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2018-03-15T08:06:49Z loke: Ohh, I can see the gutter stuff now
2018-03-15T08:06:50Z loke: neat
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2018-03-15T08:07:58Z beach: Thanks.
2018-03-15T08:08:13Z loke: Hmm. The scrolling dfoesn't follow the cursor. :-)
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2018-03-15T08:08:59Z cess11: Not sure if the maintainers of http://lisp-lang.org/learn/continuous-integration are here but if you are, the link to JSCL seems to be out of date and ought to be replaced with https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl .
2018-03-15T08:09:06Z beach: loke: Yeah, I know.
2018-03-15T08:09:14Z beach: It is not working very well at the moment.
2018-03-15T08:10:36Z loke: OK, I have a few issues. Which one of these do you want me to try to fix? 1) Cursor keys are not mapped. 2) The cursor takes up horizontal space. 3) Graphical artifacts when scrolling. 4) TAB key is not mapped to anything sensible.
2018-03-15T08:10:43Z loke: (if any)
2018-03-15T08:11:09Z beach: loke: My plan was to get enough functionality related to Common Lisp editing working, because I think I am the only one with ideas in that respect, and then leave a lot of the rest to contributors.
2018-03-15T08:11:26Z beach: loke: 2 is deliberate.
2018-03-15T08:11:43Z beach: 1, 3, and 4 are all good.
2018-03-15T08:12:03Z loke: beach: I find it to be hhugely distracting. Would you be OK with making it a configurable option?
2018-03-15T08:12:21Z beach: loke: Yes, it would.  But maybe not at this point.
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2018-03-15T08:30:43Z epony: beach did you write this?  http://metamodular.com/Psychology/continuous-improvement.html
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2018-03-15T08:32:33Z pjb: epony: AFAIK, yes, he's the author.
2018-03-15T08:33:00Z pjb: epony: we can assume the email at the bottom is the signature.
2018-03-15T08:33:23Z epony: I very much like this text.
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2018-03-15T08:36:13Z beach: epony: Yes, I wrote it.
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2018-03-15T08:37:20Z epony: What does the "metamodular" (concept) symbolise?
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2018-03-15T08:37:52Z beach: Noting in particular.  Just a name that is easy to pronounce.
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2018-03-15T08:38:07Z epony: That got me thinking..
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2018-03-15T08:40:15Z beach: Good.  That's the purpose.
2018-03-15T08:40:34Z epony: ..whether modules are modal, or if modality is modular..
2018-03-15T08:41:22Z bjorkintosh: epony, that's funny. I just discovered the same essay a few minutes ago! and then beach showed me Dweck's video on growth mindset https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isHM1rEd3GE
2018-03-15T08:42:59Z dmilez_: anyone know if there is an atom-slime for vscode ?
2018-03-15T08:43:00Z pjb: beach: would you say informatimago is easy to pronounce?
2018-03-15T08:43:44Z epony: bjorkintosh thanks for the links, watching it shortly..
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2018-03-15T08:44:08Z dmilez_ o o O (^ https://atom.io/packages/atom-slime ^)
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2018-03-15T08:45:14Z epony: that's funnier, I was just processing the knowledge collection here, so it just fits in the work I was previously doing
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2018-03-15T08:46:21Z epony: I think I am in this channel here exactly for the learning and continuous improvements aspects and find it intriguing it relates to Lisp.
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2018-03-15T08:52:51Z beach: pjb: Not too bad.  But it is witty.
2018-03-15T08:55:02Z loke: Clearly we need a package called “Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch”
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2018-03-15T08:55:41Z bjorkintosh: otherwise known as *chwyrn*
2018-03-15T08:55:57Z bjorkintosh: or llanfair* by the cool kids.
2018-03-15T08:55:57Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanfairpwllgwyngyll
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2018-03-15T10:20:29Z beach: What software on GNU/Linux do people use to record screen sessions, like for showing off their latest Common Lisp software?
2018-03-15T10:21:06Z beach: What are the factors to consider when choosing?
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2018-03-15T10:22:36Z samebchase: something like https://asciinema.org/ perhaps?
2018-03-15T10:23:16Z beach: I wasn't thinking of terminal sessions, but of GUI sessions.  But thanks for the link.
2018-03-15T10:23:31Z flip214: beach: how about that: ffmpeg -f x11grab -video_size cif -framerate 25 -i :0.0 /tmp/out.mpg
2018-03-15T10:23:44Z flip214: won't get much easier than that ;)
2018-03-15T10:24:07Z pjb: beach: it seems ffmpeg can do it: ffmpeg -video_size 1024x768 -framerate 25 -f x11grab -i :0.0+100,200 output.mp4
2018-03-15T10:24:16Z pjb: https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Capture/Desktop
2018-03-15T10:24:17Z flip214: pjb: too late ;)
2018-03-15T10:24:26Z pjb: :-)
2018-03-15T10:24:28Z beach: Great, thanks.
2018-03-15T10:24:56Z Shinmera: beach: Use OBS
2018-03-15T10:25:12Z Shinmera: https://obsproject.com/
2018-03-15T10:25:14Z flip214: although you might want to put a "sleep 3" before that, to have enough time to switch to the right window and so on
2018-03-15T10:25:56Z pjb: beach: you can also cheat, and record on a macOS system a X11 or terminal session ;-)
2018-03-15T10:28:28Z beach: pjb: I could if I were a MacOS user.  As it turns out, I am not.
2018-03-15T10:29:06Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks.
2018-03-15T10:29:53Z Shinmera: Might be a bit more trouble to set up, but is a really solid recording software that I use for all my needs in that area.
2018-03-15T10:29:57Z beach: I also found this list: https://www.tecmint.com/best-linux-screen-recorders-for-desktop-screen-recording/
2018-03-15T10:30:09Z beach: Any opinions about the software in it?
2018-03-15T10:30:20Z beach: Shinmera: Very good to know.  Thanks.
2018-03-15T10:30:39Z Shinmera: beach: I've tried all of those. OBS blows them out of the water.
2018-03-15T10:31:01Z beach: That's very good information.  Exactly the kind I am looking for.  Thanks again.
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2018-03-15T10:31:54Z Shinmera: If you need help setting it up, I'd be glad to offer some (maybe over privmsgs, though)
2018-03-15T10:32:14Z jackdaniel: note: obs is really good /unless/ you have wayland window compositor
2018-03-15T10:32:19Z beach: I am again thinking about this community project to create a site for learning Common Lisp.  It would contain a graph of short subjects, and each subject should contain text, examples, exercises, and video snippets.
2018-03-15T10:32:30Z jmercouris: that's a good idea
2018-03-15T10:32:31Z |3b| thinks i used simplescreenrecorder or recordmydesktop last time i was on linux
2018-03-15T10:32:44Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks.  I won't do it right now, but I might take you up on that once I am ready.
2018-03-15T10:32:48Z jmercouris: I would be interested in particpating in that as a proofreader/writer
2018-03-15T10:33:02Z beach: Great!
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2018-03-15T10:33:26Z jmercouris: I'd also be interested in making these learning resources as portable as possible
2018-03-15T10:33:42Z |3b|: OBS gives you a lot more control, and i use it on windows sometimes, but the simple stuff is nice when you don't need the extra control :)
2018-03-15T10:33:44Z jmercouris: if we could make these assets accessible on a site like "udemy" or "codeacademy" it would be great I think
2018-03-15T10:34:10Z beach: Shinmera: Do you have any advice about where such a thing could be hosted, so that people could make contributions without too much trouble?
2018-03-15T10:34:24Z jmercouris: beach: I know you didn't ask me, but I would think wiki software would be the best
2018-03-15T10:34:39Z jmercouris: or maybe a git repository as is done in the common lisp cookbook
2018-03-15T10:34:54Z Shinmera: beach: It depends on how structure you want the site to be.
2018-03-15T10:34:58Z Shinmera: *structured.
2018-03-15T10:35:27Z jackdaniel: isn't "Learn Lisp the Hard Way" goal the same?
2018-03-15T10:35:29Z Shinmera: The way I do it for ELS is that we have a syntax for edition data that people can edit as lisp files. This is then assembled into HTML pages by a generator.
2018-03-15T10:35:48Z Shinmera: That way the look of the site is detached from the actual content.
2018-03-15T10:36:05Z Shinmera: But, building such a system takes a bit of effort on its own.
2018-03-15T10:36:10Z beach: Shinmera: I have vague ideas, but there would be a fairly large number of "nodes", one for each very small subject.  And there would be all kinds of ways to navigate the graph of nodes.
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2018-03-15T10:36:36Z Shinmera: The quick start would be to do what the cookbook does, which is to just throw a bunch of markdown files into a github repo.
2018-03-15T10:36:38Z beach: jmercouris: Sure, wiki sounds good.  But there needs to be some sanity checks too.
2018-03-15T10:37:19Z beach: Shinmera: Oh?  Can video snippets be encoded in markdown?
2018-03-15T10:37:37Z Shinmera: beach: Not encoded, but included. Markdown can include arbitrary HTML.
2018-03-15T10:37:54Z Shinmera: Well I guess you could include it base64 encoded, but I really don't recommend it
2018-03-15T10:38:00Z ecraven: put them in as data: urls :P
2018-03-15T10:38:10Z Shinmera: That's what I just said
2018-03-15T10:38:43Z jackdaniel: afair drmeister hacked jupyter notebooks and CL - they look very handy for this kind of learning
2018-03-15T10:38:54Z beach: I can't even begin to imagine how a "node" would be represented in a GitHub repository.
2018-03-15T10:39:02Z jmercouris: beach: moderators
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2018-03-15T10:39:19Z beach: jmercouris: Sounds good.
2018-03-15T10:39:57Z jmercouris: a "node" as in a learning module? as a folder I would think
2018-03-15T10:40:25Z beach: jmercouris: I am totally ignorant here.  I didn't even know that GIT had the concept of a folder.
2018-03-15T10:40:53Z ecraven: doesn't git only know about files, not folders? last I heard, you cannot add empty directories to git
2018-03-15T10:41:07Z jmercouris: folders are files
2018-03-15T10:41:20Z beach: jmercouris: Now I am totally lost.
2018-03-15T10:41:31Z jmercouris: yeah, I just explained it poorly
2018-03-15T10:41:32Z jackdaniel: everything is a file! hail UNIX ;-)
2018-03-15T10:41:56Z beach: jackdaniel: Not again!
2018-03-15T10:41:59Z jmercouris: so basically, I mean just make a dir like "/learning-book" and then make "/learning-book/chapter1"
2018-03-15T10:42:12Z ecraven: jmercouris: but what if I want to add the directory to git, without any files in it?
2018-03-15T10:42:17Z beach: I guess the thing to do would be to have all you cool kids agree on a structure, stick in some initial material, and then tell me how to add more.
2018-03-15T10:42:19Z ecraven: I tried that, but never received it on checkout
2018-03-15T10:42:27Z jmercouris: you may add a blank file to the dir, just touch something and it will detect it
2018-03-15T10:42:30Z jmercouris: git is just trying to be clever
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2018-03-15T10:42:42Z jmercouris: you can then rm the file at a later time, and the dir should stay IIRC
2018-03-15T10:42:46Z ecraven: jmercouris: I don't want a blank file, I want only the directory, nothing in it
2018-03-15T10:42:52Z jmercouris: see above
2018-03-15T10:42:52Z ecraven: yea, that doesn't sound ideal :-/
2018-03-15T10:42:54Z jackdaniel: hint: .gitignore file is a good candidate
2018-03-15T10:43:14Z jmercouris: there must be a way to force addition of files
2018-03-15T10:43:19Z jmercouris: s/files/folders
2018-03-15T10:43:28Z Shinmera: No
2018-03-15T10:43:30Z jackdaniel: there is not
2018-03-15T10:43:33Z jackdaniel: git tracks files not directories
2018-03-15T10:43:40Z jackdaniel: period ;)
2018-03-15T10:44:01Z beach: Anyway, I think the most important part is to create a bunch of nodes.  They don't have to be organized in a graph, at least not to begin with.
2018-03-15T10:44:29Z pjb: jmercouris: touch foo/.keep ; git add touch/.keep ; git commit -m 'Added the touch/ directory ' touch/.keep
2018-03-15T10:44:32Z Shinmera: beach: An advantage of my approach is that you could start out defining some nodes as some lisp data, and then later figure out how to assemble them into a website.
2018-03-15T10:44:32Z beach: I would like to see video snippets around 5 minutes long, so as to cater to the young generation with an attention span of a gnat.
2018-03-15T10:44:52Z beach: Shinmera: Precisely what I want.
2018-03-15T10:45:08Z jackdaniel: I like the no-tldr policy of the enlightenment desktop environment developers
2018-03-15T10:45:25Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what is the no-tldr policy? they only write very lengthy articles?
2018-03-15T10:45:41Z pjb: ecraven: touch foo/.keep ; git add touch/.keep ; git commit -m 'Added the touch/ directory ' touch/.keep
2018-03-15T10:45:59Z pjb: s/touch/foo/ after the first one, sorry.
2018-03-15T10:46:02Z jackdaniel: johnnymacs: I won't provide you tldr, you have to find it and read ;-)
2018-03-15T10:46:10Z beach: I have ideas about how to organize such a thing.  And I have ideas about the contents.  But I really don't have the technical knowledge about the tools to do the mechanics of it.
2018-03-15T10:46:13Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: ↑
2018-03-15T10:46:17Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: lol, nice
2018-03-15T10:46:18Z jackdaniel: johnnymacs: sorry, typo
2018-03-15T10:46:21Z ecraven: pjb: that also adds .keep, which I don't want
2018-03-15T10:46:34Z pjb: ecraven: go talk to Linus.
2018-03-15T10:46:46Z ecraven: anyway, I know this doesn't work, I was just pointing it out, as someone said git supports adding empty directories (which afaik it just doesn't)
2018-03-15T10:47:02Z jmercouris: It does, in a very round about way
2018-03-15T10:47:04Z pjb: ecraven: Finland: the people Russian try to talk to since forever…
2018-03-15T10:47:11Z jmercouris: not literally, but kind of
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2018-03-15T10:49:58Z pjb: ecraven: I mean, Finland, the country where they catch and domesticate Santa Clauses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZlNF3qWFT8
2018-03-15T10:50:31Z pjb: ecraven: you really want to go against that?  directories in git? Really?
2018-03-15T10:51:28Z pjb: Linus could have as well written a lisp machine; he choose to implement Linux…  Doesn't that tell you all you need to know about Finland?
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2018-03-15T10:58:05Z JuanDaugherty: you say that because you know of some relation he had to lisp or on general principle?
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2018-03-15T11:00:13Z jackdaniel: JuanDaugherty: I mildly remember he has declared emacs tool of the devil ;D
2018-03-15T11:00:29Z jackdaniel: and uses some obscure elisp-free clone
2018-03-15T11:00:56Z JuanDaugherty: sounds more like truth
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2018-03-15T11:01:23Z JuanDaugherty: but when i asked i was a blank slate of expectation
2018-03-15T11:01:45Z lieven: he used (uses?) microemacs
2018-03-15T11:02:28Z jackdaniel: also, what does it mean to write a machine?
2018-03-15T11:02:36Z lieven: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/editors/uemacs/uemacs.git
2018-03-15T11:02:57Z jmercouris: unbelievable... why would you do that?
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2018-03-15T11:07:30Z JuanDaugherty: monoglossy is exceedingly common
2018-03-15T11:07:39Z schweers: good lord it really does seem to be lisp free
2018-03-15T11:07:39Z minion: schweers, memo from pjb: "IMPORTER:**;*.tar.gz" is not a logical pathname, because gz is not a valid version number.
2018-03-15T11:07:39Z minion: schweers, memo from pjb: also, you must have the same number of stars in both sides.
2018-03-15T11:07:46Z JuanDaugherty: and c is reassuring simple
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2018-03-15T11:08:37Z JuanDaugherty: beyond common, the overwhelming norm
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2018-03-15T11:10:11Z JuanDaugherty: idols turn out to have clay feets more often than not
2018-03-15T11:11:34Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: on general principles ;-)
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2018-03-15T11:12:00Z JuanDaugherty: yeah, wouldn it be great :)
2018-03-15T11:13:07Z pjb: Deceptionating idols: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P8UKBAOfGo
2018-03-15T11:13:18Z pjb: Even our idols are deceptionated..
2018-03-15T11:13:59Z JuanDaugherty: i hate that guy, typical capitalist pig, only watched 5s
2018-03-15T11:14:56Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: and Von Braun was a NAZI.
2018-03-15T11:15:09Z pjb: Space is full of capitalist and nazi pigs.
2018-03-15T11:15:20Z schweers: *cough* godwin *cough*
2018-03-15T11:15:25Z pjb: Don't you know, Hittler and the Nazi escaped in flying saucers?
2018-03-15T11:15:46Z JuanDaugherty: well he was a german, iirc he didn resist worked on their rocket program and stuff but I doubt was more than that
2018-03-15T11:16:06Z JuanDaugherty: few german scientist gave anything more than token resistance
2018-03-15T11:16:14Z pjb: That's the point. Elon Musk is not capitalist. He uses the system to do what he wants.
2018-03-15T11:16:31Z JuanDaugherty: he's a quintessential capitalist
2018-03-15T11:16:45Z Shinmera: >>#lispcafe, thanks
2018-03-15T11:17:42Z pjb: By the way, "Iron Sky" is also a Finland production.  They know something…
2018-03-15T11:18:00Z jmercouris: beach: So I'm I would imagine, about halfway through the transformation that you had described with the foreign "server gui", and it is going pretty good, I think in the long run, this will pay huge dividends
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2018-03-15T11:23:05Z beach: jmercouris: Congratulations.
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2018-03-15T11:42:14Z jmercouris: beach: thanks :)
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2018-03-15T11:57:31Z ecraven: sorry ;)
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2018-03-15T13:28:01Z didi: I wanted to provide a RETURN escape for a macro I was writing. Unfortunately the BODY of the macro was deep inside a nested DOLIST, so a RETURN would just pop from the inner DOLIST. Turns out MAPC is very useful for these situations. I just switch DOLIST to MAPC.
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2018-03-15T13:31:50Z dlowe: didi: you could have also provided a named CL:BLOCK
2018-03-15T13:32:06Z dlowe: didi: along with CL:RETURN-FROM
2018-03-15T13:32:34Z dlowe: oh, wait, I see what you mean.
2018-03-15T13:32:49Z didi: dlowe: I thought of that. But I couldn't think of a simple way. I still wanted the user of the macro to use RETURN.
2018-03-15T13:33:33Z pjb: didi: combine both: `(return (block #1=#:g1 ,@… (return-from #1# 42)))
2018-03-15T13:33:34Z dlowe: (macrolet ((return () (return-from ,my-block))) ...)
2018-03-15T13:35:16Z pjb: this is not conforming.
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2018-03-15T13:35:33Z pjb: It's not listed in the exceptions of 11.1.2.1.2.1, so 11.1.2.1.2 fully applies.
2018-03-15T13:36:00Z pjb: (defmacro with-foo (…) `(macrolet ((escape-from-foo () (return-from ,my-block))) ...))
2018-03-15T13:38:32Z didi: Ah, cool. I will think about those. Thank you.
2018-03-15T13:40:00Z dlowe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2018-03-15T13:40:00Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2018-03-15T13:40:25Z schweers: pjb: does this mean that (let ((car (car foo))) (do-stuff-with car)) is not a conforming program (fragment)?
2018-03-15T13:40:55Z pjb: schweers: no, it's conforming, it's allowed in the exceptions.
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2018-03-15T13:41:29Z dlowe: the exceptions mostly cover the separation between operations and variables
2018-03-15T13:42:07Z pjb: wait
2018-03-15T13:42:37Z pjb: right, in the execptions, the first paragraph: If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not globally defined as a standardized dynamic variable or constant variable, it is allowed to lexically bind it and to declare the type of that binding, and it is allowed to locally establish it as a symbol macro (e.g., with symbol-macrolet).
2018-03-15T13:43:11Z schweers: I made the mistake of first asking the question and only then reading the exceptions to the rules :/
2018-03-15T13:43:15Z schweers: my bad, sorry
2018-03-15T13:43:20Z pjb: this says also that no other symbol exported from CL than the specifically specified as dynamic variables or constant variables, is declared special.
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2018-03-15T13:50:39Z francogrex: i updated to the new sbcl which also uses the new asdf apparently. I notice a very annoying change. everytime I load a system, it tends to recompile. before it was not the case
2018-03-15T13:50:52Z francogrex: has anyone else also noticed that?
2018-03-15T13:59:02Z Bike: i remember people complaining about something similar
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2018-03-15T14:00:08Z Shinmera: Yes, it has come up.
2018-03-15T14:00:21Z Shinmera: I don't remember if it was fixed in ASDF completely and/or whether that made it into SBCL again.
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2018-03-15T14:17:26Z francogrex: yes it is in sbcl 1.4.5 unfortunately. thanks now I realize it's not just me. I hope it gets fixed
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2018-03-15T14:24:29Z didi: Which book do you recommend for learning about macros?
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2018-03-15T14:25:16Z Bike: pcl's explanations seem fine
2018-03-15T14:25:37Z didi: Bike: Oh, I read PCL's. I was thinking of something more in depth.
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2018-03-15T14:25:59Z Bike: honestly, there's not a lot to it
2018-03-15T14:26:05Z didi: Bike: I know On Lisp, but I didn't read it.
2018-03-15T14:26:14Z didi: Bike: oic
2018-03-15T14:26:57Z Bike: if X is a macro, then when the compiler sees a form (X ...), it calls X's macro function with the form and the lexical environment, and then compiles the resulting form instead
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2018-03-15T14:29:28Z didi: Hum. I see.
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2018-03-15T14:34:02Z sjl: Let Over Lambda covers macros pretty heavily.  Not everyone likes the book though — there are some weird style choices, and the tone is a bit much sometimes.
2018-03-15T14:34:33Z sjl: I think it's worth reading, maybe with a grain of salt.
2018-03-15T14:35:18Z Shinmera: If we upgrade that to a bag of salt, I agree.
2018-03-15T14:35:19Z dlowe: I think it's really entertaining reading :)
2018-03-15T14:35:38Z dlowe: It's like an entertainment park for lispers.
2018-03-15T14:36:26Z sjl: Shinmera: how about https://www.amazon.com/Large-Himalayan-Salt-Animals-Horses/dp/B00KAD811C/
2018-03-15T14:37:11Z Bike: imported from the himalayas of pakistan.
2018-03-15T14:37:25Z Shinmera: Ah, perfect, even includes a rope to hang yourself with when you can't take the constant jerkoff in the book anymore.
2018-03-15T14:37:50Z Shinmera: (It's not that bad, but I couldn't get through it myself)
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2018-03-15T14:40:24Z dlowe: it's only in the first couple of chapters, iirc
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2018-03-15T14:42:06Z sjl: Consider it a historical reenactment of how the term "smug lisp weenie" came about.
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2018-03-15T14:44:00Z didi: sjl: Thank you.
2018-03-15T14:48:09Z didi: sjl: https://letoverlambda.com/ ?
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2018-03-15T14:49:26Z Bike: tha's the one with the backquote thing right
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2018-03-15T14:50:28Z Shinmera: Yes
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2018-03-15T14:50:53Z Shinmera: I remember when SBCL made that change to their backquote implementation. One dude got really furious about it.
2018-03-15T14:51:27Z sjl: didi: yeah, that's it.  part of it is available online I guess, so you can try before you buy.
2018-03-15T14:51:55Z sjl: "the backquote thing"?
2018-03-15T14:52:25Z Bike: the book has this defmacro/g! thing that doesn't work in sbcl
2018-03-15T14:52:33Z Bike: people come in here occasionally and ask why
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2018-03-15T14:52:45Z sjl: Oh the auto gensymming thing, yeah
2018-03-15T14:53:04Z rumbler31: fascinating
2018-03-15T14:53:21Z didi is getting curious
2018-03-15T14:54:44Z Bike: it defines this macro that's supposed to let you define macros such that in their body, g!name is replaced with a gensym
2018-03-15T14:54:55Z Bike: which is broken
2018-03-15T14:55:20Z didi: "Only the top percentile of programmers use lisp and if you can understand this book you are in the top percentile of lisp programmers." Hihi.
2018-03-15T14:55:21Z Shinmera: Gotta use a code walker for that.
2018-03-15T14:55:36Z sjl: or clojure ;)
2018-03-15T14:55:44Z Shinmera makes a jerking-off hand motion
2018-03-15T14:55:54Z Bike: how would it work in clojure
2018-03-15T14:55:55Z sjl: didi: Yeah like I said, the tone is a bit much.
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2018-03-15T14:56:12Z Bike: "top percentile" is just gonna make me think ratatatas
2018-03-15T14:56:32Z sjl: Bike: clojure has something similar built in
2018-03-15T14:57:05Z Bike: as a special case, or is it defined in terms of some other semantics?
2018-03-15T14:57:16Z sjl: symbols ending in # get turned into gensyms
2018-03-15T14:57:38Z sjl: (eval `(let [foo# 1] foo#))
2018-03-15T14:57:40Z sjl: 1
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2018-03-15T14:58:34Z sjl: well, that's a bad example because it doesn't actually prove it's a gensym... but: `foo#
2018-03-15T14:58:36Z sjl: foo__1226__auto__
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2018-03-15T14:58:47Z Bike: "I don't believe you"
2018-03-15T14:58:52Z Bike: and it's what, like, per read?
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2018-03-15T15:00:38Z sjl: per syntax-quote, so if you need to unquote and requote you have to do it the old fashioned way
2018-03-15T15:00:50Z sjl: `(foo# ~`foo#)
2018-03-15T15:00:52Z sjl: (foo__1230__auto__ foo__1229__auto__)
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2018-03-15T15:01:17Z Bike: Huh, so you could probably finagle that with reader macros.
2018-03-15T15:01:17Z sjl: LOL has o! to replace ONCE-ONLY too.  I prefer just using the with-gensyms and once-only macros myself.
2018-03-15T15:01:36Z Bike: Have your ` replacement bind the translation table, and then ! or whatever does the replacement
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2018-03-15T15:06:13Z drmeister doesn't like those kinds of salt licks.  He never knows who's been licking it before him.
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2018-03-15T15:08:07Z schweers: how come g! and o! in LOL are broken?  I use defmacro! from a package someone made from the LOL code (on quicklisp) and it seems to be working fine.
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2018-03-15T15:09:36Z schweers: oh, it seems like it uses PARSE-BODY, so yes, it may be using a code-walker
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2018-03-15T15:11:33Z Bike: because it finds g! symbols by "flattening" the body, or using sublis or something
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2018-03-15T15:11:41Z Bike: on sbcl, though, backquote syntax is read in as structures
2018-03-15T15:11:54Z Bike: so there's no simple way to flatten or otherwise iterate through it
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2018-03-15T15:13:00Z schweers: oh.  because what (read-from-string "`(foo bar)") returns is implementation defined?
2018-03-15T15:15:09Z Bike: yeah.
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2018-03-15T15:20:00Z didi: schweers: I use `parse-body' to separate declarations from the rest. Is it bad?
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2018-03-15T15:20:28Z Bike: that's what it's for
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2018-03-15T15:20:58Z schweers: I don’t think it is.  I’ve never used it, I’m just trying to see how defmacro! is broken, and whether the version I’m using is broken too: https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda
2018-03-15T15:21:08Z didi: oic
2018-03-15T15:21:27Z schweers: I don’t think the use of parse-body fixes this issue.  But no, I don’t think its bad.  I should be using it more myself :D
2018-03-15T15:21:37Z Bike: https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda/blob/master/let-over-lambda.lisp#L93-L95 here. this part.
2018-03-15T15:22:01Z Bike: oh, flatten has an implementation specific fix that uses sbcl internals.
2018-03-15T15:22:10Z Bike: i'm going to rate that as still bad
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2018-03-15T15:22:38Z schweers: ahh, indeed
2018-03-15T15:22:44Z schweers: yep, me too
2018-03-15T15:23:02Z Bike: also not sure if it works on comma splice
2018-03-15T15:23:07Z schweers: I guess this means that I’ll refrain from using defmacro! in the future.
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2018-03-15T15:23:20Z schweers: kind of a shame, I like it
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2018-03-15T16:17:25Z comborico1611: Is it customary to put the key or the list first, in the order of parameters?
2018-03-15T16:18:15Z Xach: comborico1611: What is the context?
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2018-03-15T16:19:09Z comborico1611: Just in general.  Like in use with find-if.  Just searching a list basically.
2018-03-15T16:19:17Z Shinmera: Unfortunately both idioms exist in the standard library, eg getf vs assoc.
2018-03-15T16:19:43Z Shinmera: However, usually the thing you're looking for is more important or interesting, so it coming first makes more sense in my opinion.
2018-03-15T16:19:59Z comborico1611: Oop, I think that answers my question.  Thanks!
2018-03-15T16:20:04Z comborico1611: Shinmera: Yes, I agree.
2018-03-15T16:21:05Z didi: I like to go as it would read in English: (find x list) => Find the element X in the list LIST
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2018-03-15T16:22:56Z didi: Of course one could argue for: (find list x) -> Find, in the list LIST, the element X. But I think it's awkward.
2018-03-15T16:22:57Z Shinmera: In some cases where what you are retrieving is more of a property, the "container key" order can make more sense since it implies a "depth".
2018-03-15T16:23:37Z pjb: comborico1611: it doesn't matter, anyways you should define your own functional abstractions, so you can use your own conventions.
2018-03-15T16:23:39Z Shinmera: Which I guess is what the thought process behind getf might have been
2018-03-15T16:23:59Z Xach: Hmm, what is the use-case for package-locally-nicknamed-by-list?
2018-03-15T16:25:02Z comborico1611: didi: that is an insightful way of approaching it.
2018-03-15T16:25:25Z didi: comborico1611: Not mine, tho :-). I think I read it on PAIP.
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2018-03-15T16:32:21Z pjb: Scientists: syntax highlighting doesn't support software developers enough <https://medium.com/jexia/requirements-mislead-and-undermine-good-design-e065ab5cae80>
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2018-03-15T16:33:10Z pjb: Sorry, the right url is: https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s10664-017-9579-0?author_access_token=k4oGeJTmqhJxzIPaaGED3Pe4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY6Fle4EoE8tIdI693hz9UVo8vGkF1TVHbc2IJokKLOhdq50VzjP4FAgDEGKnm-UbZjyZL01APX6JwWNERV0wYZnjidayHG9bj7AFWhFo0NyYw%3D%3D&utm_campaign=Revue%20newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_source=Coding%20Insights%20from%20Scientists
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2018-03-15T16:34:37Z pjb: C'est juste pour faire joli.
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2018-03-15T16:39:24Z Princess17b29a_ is now known as Princess17b29a
2018-03-15T16:40:44Z rme: speaking of syntax highlighting: https://twitter.com/dchest/status/504645401119842304
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2018-03-15T16:42:04Z beach: rme: I take it you made it back home?
2018-03-15T16:42:20Z pjb: rme: exactly :-)
2018-03-15T16:42:35Z rme: Yes. I'm even essentially recovered from the 9 hour time difference now, too.
2018-03-15T16:43:05Z beach: Great!
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2018-03-15T16:47:33Z scymtym_: Xach: i don't know but it is buggy in SBCL
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2018-03-15T16:50:08Z Xach: scymtym_: Ok. I think I will think that it is superfluous for now, but am open to persuasion otherwise.
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2018-03-15T16:51:01Z Xach: My thinking today is that package-local nicknames must be implemented without adding any new packages or functions, only new arguments and return values to standard functions, if they are to be really useful. No compatibility layers.
2018-03-15T16:51:33Z Xach: package-local nicknames are in a good place among theoretical extensions to be done that way
2018-03-15T16:52:01Z vtomole: How big do your function definitions need to be before you need to break it into helper functions? Is there a general rule or is it up to the programmer?
2018-03-15T16:52:19Z Bike: it's not something you're going to be able to put a number on it
2018-03-15T16:52:29Z Bike: grammar
2018-03-15T16:52:35Z beach: vtomole: A good heuristic is that the function must fit on a screen so that it can be read entirely by the maintainer.
2018-03-15T16:52:51Z beach: vtomole: In practice, it is best if it is significantly smaller than that.
2018-03-15T16:53:28Z scymtym_: Xach: i assume the overwhelming majority of cases would only involve the :LOCAL-NICKNAMES option to DEFPACKAGE
2018-03-15T16:53:32Z TMA: vtomole: other than that, if you find yourself asking 'shall I split this?' you probably should
2018-03-15T16:53:41Z schweers: I can’t help but wonder why it is so often brought up with lisp.  This should probably be done in lesser languages too.
2018-03-15T16:54:13Z Xach: scymtym_: but that must also carry over into make-package, find-package, rename-package, and package-nicknames.
2018-03-15T16:54:57Z vtomole: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Reader/Fast/read.lisp read-upcase-downcase-preserve-decimal is huge here. I know there are always exceptions.
2018-03-15T16:55:35Z scymtym_: Xach: of course, but wouldn't those mostly change behavior without changing signatures?
2018-03-15T16:56:03Z beach: vtomole: Sorry about that.  Also that code is obsolete.
2018-03-15T16:56:22Z Xach: scymtym_: It would require new keyword arguments and return values
2018-03-15T16:56:23Z Bike: that's a tagbody, so it's sort of hard to break up into functions
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2018-03-15T16:57:04Z vtomole: clhs tagbody
2018-03-15T16:57:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_tagbod.htm
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2018-03-15T16:58:15Z scymtym_: Xach: oh, are you suggesting all information (e.g. the local nicknames established by a package) should be available without adding new functions?
2018-03-15T16:58:21Z Xach: scymtym_: yes
2018-03-15T16:58:37Z Xach: one possibility: make-package needs :local-nicknames, find-package needs :global as a new argument and a new secondary value indicating local vs global, rename-package needs a second optional value, and package-nicknames needs a :local argument
2018-03-15T16:58:53Z vtomole: beach: Why don't you delete obsolete code?
2018-03-15T16:59:09Z beach: vtomole: Good question.  I have no good answer for you.
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2018-03-15T16:59:35Z beach: vtomole: In this particular case, I only recently decided that I wasn't going to pursue this direction.
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2018-03-15T17:23:34Z scymtym_: Xach: i see
2018-03-15T17:26:40Z sigjuice: I have several versions of alexandria in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software from continued use of (ql:update-dist "quicklisp").  How does quicklisp know which one to use?
2018-03-15T17:26:55Z Xach: sigjuice: it uses only the one indexed by the metadata files
2018-03-15T17:27:08Z Xach: sigjuice: you can remove the old copies with (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2018-03-15T17:27:34Z sigjuice: Xach: thanks! that was going to be my next question :)
2018-03-15T17:27:37Z Xach: sigjuice: the metadata files are in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/installed/
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2018-03-15T19:50:33Z _death: MORE HAIRY
2018-03-15T19:50:55Z _death: this is how I feel about my lisp hacking today
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2018-03-15T20:04:04Z jmercouris: what does that even mean?
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2018-03-15T20:06:59Z _death: exactly
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2018-03-15T23:10:14Z Shinmera: My slide show app is coming along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB0BlN8ORiA&feature=youtu.be
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2018-03-15T23:25:29Z hjudt: are there any best practices naming accessors? if i have a class "box" with a slot "id", should i call the accessor box-id or simply id? is there any advantage doing the former?
2018-03-15T23:26:10Z Bike: might avoid a collision with something
2018-03-15T23:26:13Z Bike: but getnerally no
2018-03-15T23:28:55Z whoman: Shinmera: how come you dont use autocomplete like M-/ ?
2018-03-15T23:29:03Z whoman: also, are you still working on trial ?
2018-03-15T23:31:39Z Xach: hjudt: I find it useful to think of the protocol of generic functions first, and then use defclass to fill in the easy blanks of specific methods. in that context it doesn't make sense to name the generic functions with the class name (usually).
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2018-03-16T00:24:23Z didi: Wonder: Why isn't the syntax of `let' the same of `setf'? i.e. (let (a a-value b b-value) ...)
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2018-03-16T00:26:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: didi: clpjure does that, it's a bit annoying because it's more difficult to delete a binding/value pair
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2018-03-16T00:27:18Z didi: fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting.
2018-03-16T00:27:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. in evil-mode, I just hit da) and a binding goes away
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2018-03-16T00:28:30Z didi: I see.
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2018-03-16T00:29:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have actually experimented with writing a wrapper macro for setf that looks like (setf* (a a-value) (b b-value))
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2018-03-16T00:29:50Z didi: fiddlerwoaroof: What did you find?
2018-03-16T00:31:09Z Bike: i don't think there's much particular reason either way. of course, if you do write a let like that it's short for ((a nil) (a-value nil) (b nil) (b-value nil))
2018-03-16T00:31:37Z didi: Bike: Ah, good point.
2018-03-16T00:31:46Z didi: Maybe that's a reason.
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2018-03-16T00:32:06Z Bike: i would guess just historical inertia really
2018-03-16T00:32:14Z didi: oic
2018-03-16T00:34:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: didi: it's nice, but I'm always hesitant to introduce new things for such a trivial reason
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2018-03-16T00:34:38Z didi: fiddlerwoaroof: Right.
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2018-03-16T00:50:49Z Zhivago: I think the savings with setf are minimal -- with let it makes more sense since it would otherwise introduce one scope per variable.
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2018-03-16T05:07:11Z borei1: hi all
2018-03-16T05:07:21Z borei1: question about setf
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2018-03-16T05:08:21Z borei1: to define orphographic projection matrix i need to supply 2 arguments r-min and r-max, i created the following generic function
2018-03-16T05:08:37Z borei1: (defgeneric (setf orpho) (r-min r-max transform) ...)
2018-03-16T05:08:47Z borei1: and methof on top of it
2018-03-16T05:08:59Z borei1: (defmethod (setf orpho) (r-min r-max (transform transform-3d))
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2018-03-16T05:09:25Z borei1: and of cause compiler is not happy about that form
2018-03-16T05:09:59Z |3b|: how would you call it?
2018-03-16T05:10:09Z borei1: yeah, that is the problem
2018-03-16T05:10:19Z |3b|: i mean how do you want to call it
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2018-03-16T05:10:38Z borei1: idialy
2018-03-16T05:10:41Z borei1:  (setf (orpho projection-matrix) (vector -5.0 -5.0 -5.0 1.0) (vector 5.0 5.0 5.0 1.0))
2018-03-16T05:11:02Z borei1: where projection-matrix is transform-3d
2018-03-16T05:11:09Z |3b|: well, that part won't work, at best you could do (setf ... (values (...) (...))
2018-03-16T05:11:51Z |3b|: and i think you have to use the complicated SETF stuff rather than just a setf function
2018-03-16T05:12:06Z |3b|: and it would be semantically rather odd either way
2018-03-16T05:12:09Z borei1: yes it's user defined
2018-03-16T05:14:07Z borei1: combining vectors into the list - would it be "proper" solution ?
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2018-03-16T05:15:04Z |3b| would just expect (setf some-place (make-ortho-matrix a b))
2018-03-16T05:15:58Z |3b|: would (orpho projection-matrix) return rmin and rmax? (and is "orpho" spelling from some other language? haven't seen that before)
2018-03-16T05:16:35Z |3b|: if not, i wouldn't expect (setf orpho) to accept rmin+rmax, regardless of how you combine them
2018-03-16T05:17:02Z borei1: orpho is from "orthographic"
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2018-03-16T05:18:32Z |3b| assumed it was from "orphographic" as used above, just not sure if that is "orthographic" in some other language or just a typo :)
2018-03-16T05:19:38Z borei1: no, no typo
2018-03-16T05:19:49Z borei1: ok
2018-03-16T05:20:46Z borei1: but for example scale operation, does it looks "lisp" way ? or i invented the wheel
2018-03-16T05:21:18Z borei1: (setf (scale model-veiew-matrix)  (vector sx sy sz 1.0))
2018-03-16T05:21:19Z borei1: ?
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2018-03-16T05:21:32Z |3b|: what would (scale model-veiew-matrix) return?
2018-03-16T05:21:59Z borei1: it will assign sx sy sz to main matrix diag
2018-03-16T05:22:04Z |3b|: no, without SETF
2018-03-16T05:22:33Z |3b|: and also, that sounds wrong unless it is an identity matrix
2018-03-16T05:22:36Z borei1: currently nothing, but will be vector
2018-03-16T05:22:59Z borei1: not neccessary wrong
2018-03-16T05:23:14Z borei1: model-view-matrix is square 4x4 matrix
2018-03-16T05:24:06Z |3b|: right
2018-03-16T05:24:39Z |3b|: and unless it is identity or pure scale, just setting the diagonal is an odd thing to do
2018-03-16T05:24:52Z borei1: why ?
2018-03-16T05:26:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-16T05:26:22Z |3b|: if you have (0 0 1 0, 0 1 0 0, 1 0 0 0, 0 0 0 1) and set the diagonal, you get something like (2 0 1 0, 0 2 0 0, 1 0 1 0, 0 0 0 1), when you probably wanted (0 0 2 0, 0 2 0 0, 2 0 0 0, 0 0 0 1)
2018-03-16T05:27:00Z |3b|: when you want to do is multiply by (2 0 0 0, 0 2 0 0, 0 0 2 0, 0 0 0 1), which will give you the 2nd result rather than just setting the diagonal
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2018-03-16T05:27:36Z |3b|: and will also rotate the axes correctly, scale translations, etc as expected depending on which order you multiply
2018-03-16T05:27:45Z borei1: oh, you mean if matrix identity befor any operation
2018-03-16T05:28:03Z borei1: i think it's end user responsibility
2018-03-16T05:28:19Z borei1: i have reset-to-identity method
2018-03-16T05:28:42Z borei1: technically model-view-matrix can have all -in-one
2018-03-16T05:28:53Z borei1: scale, translate and rotate
2018-03-16T05:29:15Z |3b|: right, i would expect it to usually have concatenation of a bunch of rotation and translation (and possibly scale)
2018-03-16T05:29:35Z |3b|: so having an operation that doesn't work in that case seems less useful
2018-03-16T05:29:56Z borei1: they are all independent
2018-03-16T05:30:09Z |3b|: right, if you multiply whole matrices
2018-03-16T05:30:36Z |3b|: if you just change parts of a matrix, you can't compose them
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2018-03-16T05:31:53Z |3b|: if your model-view transform is "scale 2" "move x +1" "scale 3" "move y +2" "rotate 30deg" "scale x 4", you can't use your (setf scale) for anything but the first one
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2018-03-16T05:32:16Z borei1: i see what you mean
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2018-03-16T05:32:38Z |3b|: so instead you would just have (make-scale-matrix sx sy sz) and multiply that by mv matrix
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2018-03-16T05:33:27Z borei1: there can be different approaches to do it
2018-03-16T05:33:39Z |3b|: or possibly (scale-matrix m sx sy sz) if you want to optimize it a bit and modify the matrix in place, but that would still be doing more than just setting the diagonal, it would have to do a bunch of multiplies and adds internally, just optimized for the elements it knows are 0 in the scale matrix
2018-03-16T05:34:42Z borei1: yeah, they need to accumulate values, depeneding on operation
2018-03-16T05:34:46Z |3b| would just use the generic version though, unless you are writing a ray-tracer or other software renderer where you are doing a /lot/ of specialized operations with known matrices
2018-03-16T05:35:41Z |3b|: or maybe if you are doing a lot of animation
2018-03-16T05:35:54Z |3b| tends to try to move things like that to GPU though
2018-03-16T05:36:08Z borei1: yep
2018-03-16T05:36:35Z borei1: all that operation basically needed for user interaction only
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2018-03-16T05:37:06Z borei1: once matrix are defined they will be pushed to shader unifor and will continue to live there
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2018-03-16T05:38:17Z borei1: but definetely i got some ideas after discussion - i completely missed sequential operations
2018-03-16T05:38:35Z |3b|: yeah, view tends to change per frame but also isn't very complicated to build, so not worth optimizing
2018-03-16T05:39:30Z borei1: and seems like interface need to be adjusted in more "lisp style" way
2018-03-16T05:39:37Z borei1: cool !
2018-03-16T05:40:50Z |3b|: might also look at sb-cga and various other game/graphics math libs and see what they do
2018-03-16T05:41:03Z beach: borei1: Are you French?
2018-03-16T05:41:47Z beach noticed the space before the `!', but maybe other languages use that too.
2018-03-16T05:41:47Z |3b|: https://github.com/lispgames/lispgames.github.io/wiki/Common-Lisp#Math has a list (implementing math libs seems fairly popular :/ )
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2018-03-16T05:44:19Z borei1: nah, russian
2018-03-16T05:44:40Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2018-03-16T05:45:02Z borei1: why ?
2018-03-16T05:45:20Z beach: The space before `!' and `?' is not English typography.
2018-03-16T05:45:26Z jdz: I find it really weird when people put spaces before punctuation.
2018-03-16T05:45:27Z beach: It is called "French spacing".
2018-03-16T05:45:45Z jdz: It's the wrong thing to do on computers.
2018-03-16T05:45:45Z borei1: hmm, didn't know about it
2018-03-16T05:46:07Z beach: jdz: It is wrong in English.  Not in some other languages.
2018-03-16T05:46:13Z |3b| hadn't even noticed it until beach mentioned it, probably will now :p
2018-03-16T05:46:13Z jdz: If one does it, it should at least be a non-breaking space.
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2018-03-16T05:46:55Z flip214: or a zero-width space ;)
2018-03-16T05:46:58Z jdz: It looks really weird when reading a sentence, and the terminating punctuation is at the start of the next line.
2018-03-16T05:47:10Z beach: jdz: Sure, when possible.
2018-03-16T05:49:08Z beach: |3b|: It is an occupational hazard.  From reading papers by students and colleagues for a few decades.
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2018-03-16T05:59:34Z loke: That's not a problem if you use the correct spacing.
2018-03-16T05:59:53Z loke: I think this is how it's done ?
2018-03-16T06:00:39Z loke: It should be a U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE
2018-03-16T06:00:50Z beach: Yes, looks good.
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2018-03-16T06:47:38Z pjb: minion: memo for didi: (let (v1 v2 (v3) (v4 nil) (v5 'something-different))  (list v1 v2 v3 v4 v5)) #| --> (nil nil nil nil something-different) |#
2018-03-16T06:47:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-03-16T06:49:27Z pjb: borei: you want to use define-setf-expander instead of defun setf.
2018-03-16T06:49:51Z pjb: With define-setf-expander, you can define a place for 2 values.
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2018-03-16T06:51:25Z pjb: Actually, typographically, it should be a non-breaking half space.
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2018-03-16T06:51:53Z pjb: Perhaps the narrow one is ok.
2018-03-16T06:52:15Z pjb: I wonder if the typographic manual of the Imprimerie Nationale has been updated for unicode…
2018-03-16T06:56:56Z loke: Yay. I just found easye on Keybase
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2018-03-16T07:19:00Z Shinmera: whoman: I mean... what I posted there is literally work on Trial, so
2018-03-16T07:21:26Z easye follows loke back.  "Found Andreas Fuchs as well"
2018-03-16T07:22:20Z loke: easye: What's his name?
2018-03-16T07:22:38Z easye: asf
2018-03-16T07:23:19Z loke: Done :-)
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2018-03-16T13:30:56Z Shinmera: More fun with my CL slideshow app https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtLaw5-kI54&feature=youtu.be
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2018-03-16T13:32:46Z beach: Looks great!
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2018-03-16T13:33:11Z Shinmera: Specially developed for my ELS talk, provided I get accepted of course.
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2018-03-16T13:33:23Z beach: That's the spirit!
2018-03-16T13:33:43Z _death: Shinmera: hey, does it make sense to write a parachute test like this? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/741#741
2018-03-16T13:34:00Z Shinmera: I don't see why not.
2018-03-16T13:34:04Z beach: Shinmera: I assume you are planning to make it available at some point, yes?
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2018-03-16T13:34:32Z Shinmera: beach: Of course. It's already on github, but I do plan on providing a more usable version as well.
2018-03-16T13:34:39Z Shinmera: Once I'm done, that is.
2018-03-16T13:34:42Z _death: Shinmera: alright, thanks
2018-03-16T13:34:44Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-16T13:35:24Z Shinmera: _death: I do pretty much this here, for instance: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/test.lisp#L183
2018-03-16T13:37:35Z _death: cool.. parachute lacks support for package-inferred-system style test suite, but I'm just going to stuff all the tests in one file so it's ok.. also, does it have a reporter that just displays the tests and not every test form?
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2018-03-16T13:42:27Z Shinmera: It doesn't have a reporter like that, no
2018-03-16T13:44:58Z Shinmera: Should be easy to do though, hold on
2018-03-16T13:45:46Z _death: yeah, seems easy enough
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2018-03-16T13:49:02Z Shinmera: (defclass my-report (parachute:plain) ()) (defmethod parachute:report-on :around ((result parachute:result) (report my-report)) (when (typep result 'parachute:parent-result) (call-next-method)))
2018-03-16T13:50:46Z Shinmera: Or you could specialise on value-result and do nothing. I think all of the standard test forms emit subclasses of value-result.
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2018-03-16T13:54:40Z Shinmera: _death: What would "package-inferred-system style test suites" look like?
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2018-03-16T13:56:49Z _death: Shinmera: I guess a foo-test system that depends on, say, foo/tests/all, and there's a file all.lisp in foo/tests that defpackages foo/tests/all and uses foo/tests/a foo/tests/b etc.. which in turn have corresponding files and packages and contain the define-test forms
2018-03-16T13:57:11Z Shinmera: Hmm
2018-03-16T13:58:01Z Shinmera: I'd like to add that, but I'll have to think on how exactly to do it.
2018-03-16T13:59:22Z _death: for now a single file is sufficient, and I define multiple suites in it
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2018-03-16T14:01:44Z _death: what about multiple values?
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2018-03-16T14:03:24Z Shinmera: What about them?
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2018-03-16T14:04:55Z _death: suppose I want to check that (foo) results in 2, 3.. do I need to use multiple-value-list? or write a macro that expands to that?
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2018-03-16T14:05:47Z Shinmera: Well, often each value will have a different type, and thus likely a different comparator, so it doesn't make much sense for IS to allow specifying multiple values to compare against.
2018-03-16T14:06:06Z Shinmera: I could see value in something like (is-values form test-1 value-1 test-2 value-2 ..) though.
2018-03-16T14:06:14Z Shinmera: Hmm
2018-03-16T14:06:27Z Shinmera: err *comparator-1 comparator-2
2018-03-16T14:06:29Z _death: can imagine (is (eql eql) (42 42) (foo))
2018-03-16T14:06:42Z Shinmera: That makes my skin crawl
2018-03-16T14:06:44Z _death: but it's a bit funny ;)
2018-03-16T14:07:17Z Shinmera: For now you'll have to either multiple-value-bind around the test forms (which loses the form in the report), or a multiple-value-list, yeah.
2018-03-16T14:07:30Z Shinmera: Or actually
2018-03-16T14:07:34Z Shinmera: better than that, nth-value
2018-03-16T14:07:43Z Shinmera: and multiple repeat calls of the test form.
2018-03-16T14:08:02Z Shinmera: I'll think about something, though.
2018-03-16T14:08:08Z _death: hmm, not sure it's better.. depends on what you want to emphasize in the test
2018-03-16T14:08:49Z _death: but I'll write some ARE macro :)
2018-03-16T14:09:13Z Shinmera: Okey.
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2018-03-16T14:18:36Z _death: here's a quick take https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/742#742
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2018-03-16T14:19:41Z _death: though maybe a plist-like expectations list is more in style
2018-03-16T14:19:56Z Shinmera: Yeah, the report also won't be too nice. I'm working on a more extensive solution now.
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2018-03-16T14:42:34Z Shinmera: _death: https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVek5nPT0=
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2018-03-16T14:47:36Z _death: looks a bit weird.. there is a mismatch between the form (which returns 3 values) and the report
2018-03-16T14:47:58Z Shinmera: Which is?
2018-03-16T14:48:30Z _death: for example you'd expect (values 0 "0" 'c) to return 0 as the first value, but the report claims it's "0"
2018-03-16T14:48:39Z Shinmera: That's the 0th value
2018-03-16T14:48:50Z _death: 1st = first
2018-03-16T14:48:57Z Shinmera: we're indexing by 0 though.
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2018-03-16T14:49:17Z Shinmera: (nth-value 1 (values 1 2)) ; => 2
2018-03-16T14:49:46Z _death: english is 1-based though
2018-03-16T14:49:58Z Shinmera: Can you see how both are confusing, though?
2018-03-16T14:50:34Z Shinmera: I guess if I just write "the test form .. value x is .." that would be fine if it were 0 indexed.
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2018-03-16T14:52:29Z _death: the is-values syntax is also a departure from the rest of the test operators
2018-03-16T14:53:26Z Shinmera: What would you suggest instead? I'd rather not separately group things into an extra list.
2018-03-16T14:54:36Z schweers: I need to write some code in order to provide a C interface to some C++ code.  Do I have to compile is separately as a shared library and place it somewhere where CFFI can find it (or tell CFFI where to find it), or can I simply tell asdf where to find the code and have asdf and cffi compile and load it?
2018-03-16T14:55:40Z _death: my ARE operator combines the comparator/value, although it should likely evaluate the latter.. (are ((= 2) (equal "1") (= 0)) (values 0 "0" 'c))
2018-03-16T14:56:13Z Shinmera: Yeah, I don't know if I like that.
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2018-03-16T14:56:23Z schweers: i.e. can I bake the resulting code directly into the image?
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2018-03-16T14:57:04Z Shinmera: shared libraries are managed by your OS. you cannot "bake" them into the image.
2018-03-16T14:57:26Z schweers: I know; I’m asking if I can avoid creating a shared library in the first place
2018-03-16T14:57:57Z shka_: i think you can do it with ECL
2018-03-16T14:57:59Z schweers: how that I’ve asked, I realized I was wrong
2018-03-16T14:58:00Z shka_: but JUST ecl
2018-03-16T14:58:05Z Shinmera: SBCL has some support for static linking of libraries.
2018-03-16T14:58:12Z Shinmera: But don't ask me how to do it.
2018-03-16T14:58:25Z _death: Shinmera: could just use (= 2 equal "1" = 0) .. then it's similar to your is-values except the expectations come first.. but I find the grouping of each pair visually useful
2018-03-16T14:58:36Z _rumbler31: well, I've been thinking of a few functions to store the shared libs you want to ship as octet vectors, then unpack them and explicitly cffi load them
2018-03-16T14:58:56Z schweers: ugh, possible, but seems yucky
2018-03-16T14:59:00Z schweers: at least for me
2018-03-16T14:59:19Z schweers: anyway, thanks.  I guess I’ll just bite the bullet and create and deploy a shared library then.
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2018-03-16T15:00:09Z Shinmera: _death: The rationale behind the ordering in the other operators is that it should feel similar to just (comparison expect value). For multiple values that obviously makes no sense. The idea behind is-values is to make it look more like multiple-value-bind, so I guess (is-values value (comp expected) ..) would be most fitting.
2018-03-16T15:00:48Z _rumbler31: schweers: I think that's the easier path than trying to statically link some code with any given image
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2018-03-16T15:02:01Z schweers: I’m asking myself what happens if I load a shared library and then dump an image.  That shared library is then /not/ embedded in the image, right?  Or at least not on every implementation.
2018-03-16T15:02:04Z _death: Shinmera: I see
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2018-03-16T15:03:21Z Shinmera: schweers: It is not.
2018-03-16T15:03:32Z Shinmera: schweers: You need to unload shared libraries and reload them on boot.
2018-03-16T15:03:41Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell schweers about deploy
2018-03-16T15:03:41Z Colleen: schweers: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, about self, set, say, mop, get, logout, grant, block, award,
2018-03-16T15:03:47Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell schweers look up deploy
2018-03-16T15:03:48Z Colleen: schweers: About deploy https://shinmera.github.io/deploy#about_deploy
2018-03-16T15:04:01Z schweers: I suspected so.  please forgive my ignorance, I’ve never done much with shared libraries in any language
2018-03-16T15:04:19Z Shinmera: Shared libraries are loaded into a separate memory region by your OS.
2018-03-16T15:04:37Z Shinmera: They are shared so that they can be used by multiple applications at the same time.
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2018-03-16T15:06:05Z schweers: Shinmera: deploy is an alternative to cl-launch or buildapp?
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2018-03-16T15:06:45Z Shinmera: I don't know cl-launch, but I guess it is an alternative to buildapp
2018-03-16T15:06:54Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure it does more than either though.
2018-03-16T15:06:59Z schweers: looks cool, thanks for the tip
2018-03-16T15:07:17Z schweers: I’ll look at it.  I’l currently using cl-launch, but I’m not /that/ happy with it.
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2018-03-16T15:08:51Z Shinmera: _death: How about this, then? https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVek53PT0=
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2018-03-16T15:10:01Z Shinmera: You can also write (is-values .. (= 0 value-0)) if you want. Or anything else as the third argument.
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2018-03-16T15:16:28Z Shinmera: _death: Should be live with b971704
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2018-03-16T15:23:45Z _death: Shinmera: looks good.. instead of ~D~A you can use ~:R to display first/second/... though a bit more verbose
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2018-03-16T15:24:47Z Shinmera: Yeah I know about that, but I didn't want it to get that long.
2018-03-16T15:26:00Z _death: Shinmera: isnt-values has a copy-paste error in :expression ;)
2018-03-16T15:26:20Z Shinmera: Whoops-- thanks!
2018-03-16T15:26:28Z Shinmera thinks he would like a reviewer more often
2018-03-16T15:26:32Z _death: funny that testing frameworks don't usually have.. tests
2018-03-16T15:27:01Z Shinmera: Well, I'd be open to have them
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2018-03-16T15:31:56Z Shinmera: I suppose they don't exist for most because the framework is just a means to an end (I gotta write tests for this other thing)
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2018-03-16T15:34:18Z Bike: testing a test framework with itself is clearly an undefinability theorem violation :p
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2018-03-16T15:45:39Z republican_devil: can lisp web apps easily scale horizontally?
2018-03-16T15:46:07Z republican_devil: or does the complexity favor 1 big box kinda apps?
2018-03-16T15:46:17Z pjb: if you rotate the planet 90 degree, yes.
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2018-03-16T15:46:38Z republican_devil: can you reduce problems with logic liek prolog does in lisp? thus saving a lot fo work?
2018-03-16T15:46:55Z pjb: yes
2018-03-16T15:47:04Z republican_devil: does that relate to sets?
2018-03-16T15:47:06Z dlowe: horizontal scaling is mostly language agnostic
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2018-03-16T15:47:33Z republican_devil: I mean if I say z means (this list of 100 things) and y means (this other 100 things) then instead of check ing for 200 things, I can check for 2...
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2018-03-16T15:47:43Z republican_devil: I can kinda see that in my minds eye
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2018-03-16T15:48:19Z republican_devil: so any question of php vs lisp is yes lisp does fine....and is a much smarter language?
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2018-03-16T15:48:40Z pjb: yesU
2018-03-16T15:48:41Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2018-03-16T15:48:46Z republican_devil: I just have quite a few boosk before I nuderstand the basics of lisp
2018-03-16T15:48:46Z republican_devil [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (go away gavino)
2018-03-16T15:49:14Z Xach has set mode +b *!*g@209.6.150.53
2018-03-16T15:49:23Z Shinmera: Oh hey that nick did seem familiar. I guess now I know why.
2018-03-16T15:49:32Z Xach: Remarkable history.
2018-03-16T15:49:35Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
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2018-03-16T15:54:38Z schweers: what was that about?
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2018-03-16T15:55:10Z Shinmera: gavino is a recurring troll that comes back every few months / every year.
2018-03-16T15:55:10Z beach: schweers: Gavino is a recurring pest.
2018-03-16T15:55:53Z Xach: The questions are always similar. Can lisp scale. is lisp better than <some other language. Can I use Lisp for web apps.
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2018-03-16T15:56:07Z Xach: This goes back well over 10 years
2018-03-16T15:56:17Z schweers: wtf?
2018-03-16T15:56:24Z jackdaniel: not knowing him are perks of not using usenet (I'm one of the happy non-users ;)
2018-03-16T15:56:25Z schweers: must be a proper weirdo then
2018-03-16T15:56:29Z surrounder: in more communities
2018-03-16T15:56:36Z surrounder: think I recognize the nick from slackware
2018-03-16T15:56:42Z surrounder: proper troll
2018-03-16T15:56:42Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: He's been here often enough too :/
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2018-03-16T15:56:59Z jackdaniel: apparently I didn't notice
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2018-03-16T15:57:22Z jackdaniel: btw, nice demo with the presentation (despite the fact that I'm allergic to word "neat")
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2018-03-16T15:58:00Z beach: jackdaniel: Presumably the word is OK if used with its standard meaning, yes?
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2018-03-16T15:58:03Z random-nick: Xach: what's the point? wasting people's time? or does he think that lisp is bad at web and wants to troll by pointing that out?
2018-03-16T15:58:04Z Shinmera: What's wrong with "neat"
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2018-03-16T15:58:40Z _death: Shinmera: thanks btw
2018-03-16T15:58:41Z Xach: random-nick: I don't know. It is not just lisp. I suspect some kind of illness or disorder, actually. That doesn't make it much more pleasant to see.
2018-03-16T15:58:49Z Shinmera: _death: Thanks for the feedback!
2018-03-16T15:58:50Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: I hear it way too often on lisp-related communication channels, it is watered down from any meaning for me now
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2018-03-16T15:59:35Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Okey. I mean, I don't think I used the word anywhere in the demo except in a sarcastic context on the initial cube slide.
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2018-03-16T16:00:01Z jackdaniel: sure, allergic means: even small doze is annoying ;)
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2018-03-16T16:01:23Z jackdaniel: beach: words are neither good or bad, but I agree that correct use is much less unpleasant
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2018-03-16T16:02:08Z beach: jackdaniel: I know how you feel.  I prefer to see "cool" used to refer to temperature, for instance.
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2018-03-16T16:03:08Z _death: vagueness/"downwatering"/fuzziness/etc. serve a useful function
2018-03-16T16:03:11Z Shinmera: Youse people and y'alls ideas 'bout "correct" language
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2018-03-16T16:03:39Z beach: Shinmera: Notice that I personally did not use the word "correct".
2018-03-16T16:03:50Z Shinmera: beach: I did note that :)
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2018-03-16T16:03:56Z beach: Thanks :)
2018-03-16T16:05:00Z parjanya: that rejection of new usages tend to be useful, otherwise language would change way too fast, and in different ways according to place etc
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2018-03-16T16:06:35Z Shinmera: language will change whether you want it to or not
2018-03-16T16:06:46Z Shinmera: which is opposite to CL, which won't change whether you want it to or not :^)
2018-03-16T16:06:53Z Xach: Yes! Long live stasis!
2018-03-16T16:07:25Z parjanya: ; )) Sanskrit doesn’t change since Pāṇini’s specification... hah
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2018-03-16T16:11:45Z onion: biblical hebrew
2018-03-16T16:12:28Z jackdaniel: languages change, but it's not that we have no influence on their evolution. it remotely reminds privacy disputes: they know everything then why do you care? ;-)
2018-03-16T16:12:46Z jackdaniel: s/everything/everything anyway/
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2018-03-16T16:13:44Z _death invokes heraclitus.. there are no languages
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2018-03-16T16:13:51Z beach: I recommend Steven Pinker's "A sense of style".  It is one of the few non-prescriptive books about the English language.
2018-03-16T16:14:02Z Shinmera invokes solipsism, there is nobody else.
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2018-03-16T16:15:41Z beach: Plus, he correctly identifies the "problem" as one of communication.  So, he is not a defender of pure descriptive grammar ideas.  Essentially, if you upset the intended receiver by using certain constructs, then the message won't get across as easily.
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2018-03-16T16:16:59Z _death: I can see gavino 2.0 asking why lisp isn't considered neat
2018-03-16T16:17:25Z parjanya: it’s too cool for that : o )
2018-03-16T16:17:37Z beach: Good one.
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2018-03-16T16:18:59Z parjanya: beach: I like that book. I struggle a little, though, to guess the reader’s sensibilities. People have invented lots and lots of shibboleths, and different people know different sets of them
2018-03-16T16:19:18Z beach: Very true.
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2018-03-16T16:22:29Z parjanya: the most absurd one I remember is that some people avoid saying "como" ‘as’ in Portuguese, because it’s homophone of the verb ‘to eat’ that can be used in a sexual sense, so any comparison might sound obscene to them [rolling eyes]
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2018-03-16T16:23:51Z beach: Heh, you could also read Pinker's book "The stuff of thought".  there is an entire chapter in there about unacceptable words in different languages.
2018-03-16T16:24:19Z beach: The chapter also exists as a separate booklet.  Something like "the seven words you can't say on television".
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2018-03-16T16:25:11Z schweers: didn’t Carlin coin those?  or at least claim to have done so
2018-03-16T16:25:30Z parjanya: beach: I’ll chase that :)
2018-03-16T16:25:43Z beach: https://www.amazon.fr/Seven-Words-You-Cant-Television-ebook/dp/B002RI9QCG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521217524&sr=8-1&keywords=pinker+seven+words+you+can%27t+say+on+television
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2018-03-16T16:27:14Z parjanya: beach: thanks!
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2018-03-16T16:28:42Z beach: Sure.
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2018-03-16T16:38:34Z _death: Shinmera: btw I also noticed some weirdness in the parachute docs.. it has a "See GEQ" and the link to GEQ is broken
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2018-03-16T17:08:33Z Shinmera: Ah, beacuse GEQ isn't exported.
2018-03-16T17:09:25Z Shinmera: Right, I'll see what I can do. Sometimes the references point to things that shouldn't be exported, for use by people that dive deeper, I suppose.
2018-03-16T17:09:36Z Shinmera: But a NIL hyperlink is definitely bad
2018-03-16T17:11:03Z _death: there are a few other issues.. would you like me to privmsg
2018-03-16T17:11:35Z Shinmera: If people mind it in here, sure. Could also write to #shirakumo.
2018-03-16T17:15:16Z SaganMan: Good Morning peeps
2018-03-16T17:15:27Z beach feels excluded.
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2018-03-16T17:16:17Z Bike: good relatively brief period before universal heat death, beeps
2018-03-16T17:17:23Z Pierpa wonders why the Pinker booklet costs significantly less from amazon.it vs .fr. Hmmm...
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2018-03-16T17:18:20Z Pierpa: Usually there's no difference in eboks
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2018-03-16T17:19:31Z beach: "What the market can bear"
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2018-03-16T17:20:49Z Pierpa: Yeah, but never noticed any difference in kindle books from A. in the euro zone
2018-03-16T17:23:01Z Pierpa: And even outside the euro, usually they just apply the current exchange rate
2018-03-16T17:23:19Z beach: Maybe because they don't have to be delivered?
2018-03-16T17:23:27Z beach: So you can easily buy them from anywhere?
2018-03-16T17:23:50Z Pierpa: It's not easy, actually
2018-03-16T17:23:54Z beach: Just guessing of course.
2018-03-16T17:23:56Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-03-16T17:24:31Z Pierpa: Kindle books can be bought only from the Amazon of the country where one is registered
2018-03-16T17:25:00Z Pierpa: One can change it, but it is a hassle
2018-03-16T17:25:27Z beach: I see.
2018-03-16T17:25:44Z beach: Never thought of buying a Kindle, so I don't know how it works.
2018-03-16T17:26:23Z pjb: all I know is that Amazon can decide to erase your books on the kindle…
2018-03-16T17:26:40Z Pierpa: No need to buy the hardware to buy them. There are readers for many hardware platforms
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2018-03-16T17:26:48Z pjb: I prefer txt or pdf from the Project Gutenberg.
2018-03-16T17:27:16Z Pierpa: Then try to convince Pinker
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2018-03-16T17:36:29Z SaganMan: I always prefer books in paper
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2018-03-16T17:37:59Z beach: If I could figure out how to install Linux on my Nexus 10, I would often prefer it, because books are much heavier.  At least the ones I read.
2018-03-16T17:39:03Z dlowe: you know kindles are hackable, right?  they're great little devices.
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2018-03-16T17:40:02Z Shinmera: Kindles are good because the screen is like paper.
2018-03-16T17:40:03Z Lycurgus: and that Android is already linux
2018-03-16T17:40:06Z Shinmera: A phone does not compare
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2018-03-16T17:41:41Z Pierpa: Why hack them? There are android tablets at the same price. The eink display is terrible for a general purpose device
2018-03-16T17:42:09Z phoe: But it's amazing for a book reader.
2018-03-16T17:42:43Z Shinmera: Anyway, to bring this back on topic, do we have any libraries to do mobi/epub?
2018-03-16T17:42:45Z Pierpa: Yes. For reading text is the best I have seen
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2018-03-16T17:43:21Z phoe: Shinmera: nothing that I know of. You could interface with calibre perhaps.
2018-03-16T17:43:31Z dlowe: Shinmera: I made some stuff a while ago to put together an epub, but it's not really in library form
2018-03-16T17:43:43Z dlowe: I don't know anything about mobi.
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2018-03-16T17:54:40Z doesthiswork: beach: "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language" is a good non-prescriptive book on english, I only read the first 250 pages though, so I've barely started it.
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2018-03-16T18:05:40Z _death: English is a nonprescriptive take on German ;)
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2018-03-16T20:20:20Z ski: minion: chat
2018-03-16T20:20:21Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``chat''.
2018-03-16T20:20:23Z ski: minion: chant
2018-03-16T20:20:23Z minion: MORE FLEXIBLE
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2018-03-17T00:27:28Z dmilez_: I really realy wish there was a web-ide for common lisp that lets someone explore and edit the file system
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2018-03-17T00:28:45Z dmilez_: like  Atom-SLime + Atom-in-Orbit
2018-03-17T00:29:22Z dmilez_: or even better VSCode-Slime + telia
2018-03-17T00:29:37Z fouric: minion: chant
2018-03-17T00:29:37Z minion: MORE THAT
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2018-03-17T00:29:42Z minion: MORE THAT
2018-03-17T00:29:52Z fouric: ...
2018-03-17T00:31:07Z dmilez_: anyone compared cl-lsp (Language Server Protocol)  to SLIME?  is there no comparison.. or.. ?
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2018-03-17T00:51:35Z Xach: i have not
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2018-03-17T01:01:08Z onion: dmilez_: there is also https://github.com/joaotavora/sly ... choice and competition is healthy but theres basically at least two of everything and i need to start flipping coins soon
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2018-03-17T01:02:11Z onion: dmilez_: there is also swank-js, for doing "slime" things but on a browser-connected JS repl.
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2018-03-17T01:11:35Z dmilez_: onion: hrm between what to sides of the coins?
2018-03-17T01:11:40Z dmilez_: to/two
2018-03-17T01:12:42Z dmilez_: slime vs LSP ?
2018-03-17T01:19:36Z onion: er the link i posted ...
2018-03-17T01:19:44Z onion: Sly vs. Slime .
2018-03-17T01:20:02Z onion: i dont know much about LSP other than adventure time sry
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2018-03-17T01:28:08Z dmilez_: ah .. i watched video w/o audio .. looks good
2018-03-17T01:29:12Z onion: for sly or lsp? =)
2018-03-17T01:29:16Z onion: or adventure time?? =P
2018-03-17T01:29:40Z Oladon: Anyone know of a web forum library in Lisp, preferably CL? It's proving difficult to search for.
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2018-03-17T01:34:16Z dmilez_: SLY @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWkVvubnSI
2018-03-17T01:34:30Z dmilez_: (*Is what I watched)
2018-03-17T01:35:27Z dmilez_: CL-LSP An implementation of the Language Server Protocol for Common Lisp is how VSCode gets autocompletes
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2018-03-17T01:38:07Z dmilez_: I dont know what "adventure time" is :)
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2018-03-17T01:54:43Z doesthiswork: dmilez_: adventure time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJnOftZRCfQ
2018-03-17T01:56:12Z dmilez_: oh, i assumed that it was some other adventure time related to lisp
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2018-03-17T02:00:13Z onion: Lumpy Space Princess. also unrelated, thats how i imagine certain personas here in irc when they are all hot headed or high headed. current #otherchannel activity not withstanding
2018-03-17T02:01:52Z dmiles: Also one can use Microsoft Comic Chat for IRC
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2018-03-17T02:10:39Z Bicyclidine: i'll be pants
2018-03-17T02:10:58Z onion: haha i remember that
2018-03-17T02:11:23Z onion: oh my. that would be a fun little project to make something like
2018-03-17T02:11:36Z onion: also, dmiles == dmilez ?
2018-03-17T02:11:54Z Bicyclidine: it wouldn't be the same without woodring
2018-03-17T02:12:48Z onion: it would pull out random meme chars
2018-03-17T02:15:33Z fouric: onion: to be fair, sly is a fork of semi-fork of slime that tracks all of its features, so the experience is very similar
2018-03-17T02:17:01Z fouric: Oladon: exactly what are you looking for?
2018-03-17T02:17:05Z onion: fouric: i figured so, im not sure i can understand the features on the page but i will check out the video dmilez_ linked
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2018-03-17T02:17:35Z fouric: onion: if you're familiar with slime, then i recommend https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#A-SLY-tour-for-SLIME-users for the lowdown on what sly adds
2018-03-17T02:17:46Z fouric: the video might work too, but text is easier to scan quickly
2018-03-17T02:18:23Z onion: ah nice, ty ! will be back after some coffee
2018-03-17T02:19:11Z fouric: Oladon: if you're actually looking for a *forum* proper, then the comp.lang.lisp newsgroup appears reasonably active: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/
2018-03-17T02:19:37Z fouric: onion: np! i hope it serves you well, or, failing that, you at least discover that it is unfit for your needs as quickly as possible
2018-03-17T02:19:40Z Bicyclidine: i think they meant software to /run/ a forum.
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2018-03-17T02:19:48Z fouric: ...oh
2018-03-17T02:19:57Z fouric: I'm an idiot, didn't read the post.
2018-03-17T02:20:16Z fouric hides
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2018-03-17T02:23:12Z fouric: dmilez_: historically, Emacs+SLIME has been *miles* ahead of other editors (a few commercial products possibly being the exception) in terms of Lisp development integration and features.
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2018-03-17T02:23:26Z fouric: ...although I, personally, haven't been keeping up on VS Code's features.
2018-03-17T02:23:37Z Oladon: fouric: Heh. Nice illustration of why it's been difficult to search for, though! :)
2018-03-17T02:23:40Z fouric: I suggest trying both. If you don't have time, Emacs+SLIME is the safer bet
2018-03-17T02:24:07Z fouric: Oladon: happy to provide a case study for you lol
2018-03-17T02:24:37Z Bike: wasn't the y combinator website thing in lisp at some point?
2018-03-17T02:24:54Z Oladon: Indeed, supposedly it was in Arc, but I can't find any mention of the forum code being open-sourced
2018-03-17T02:25:46Z fouric: Oladon: https://github.com/wting/hackernews might be what you're looking for?
2018-03-17T02:25:55Z fouric: Oh, http://arclanguage.org/install
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2018-03-17T02:26:10Z fouric: Wait, nevermind
2018-03-17T02:26:17Z fouric: second link is just arc itself
2018-03-17T02:26:39Z fouric: ...or is it?
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2018-03-17T02:27:22Z Oladon: fouric: HN isn't exactly a forum like I have in mind, though I suppose if that's all that's out there I might be able to reuse parts of it.
2018-03-17T02:27:44Z fouric: Yeah, I was thinking just that...well, unfortunately, *I* can't help you there, sorry.
2018-03-17T02:28:01Z Oladon: No problem. Appreciate your attempt!
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2018-03-17T05:17:40Z patrixl: hey all
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2018-03-17T05:26:35Z patrixl: aside from the plaster, filebox, reader applications in the Shirakumo repositories, are there other examples of web apps built using Radiance?
2018-03-17T05:28:07Z patrixl: I'm trying to re-write something I wrote last year in Ruby+Sinatra, which has one main web app + several modules that are optional and can be loaded to add routes/REST API endpoints and pages
2018-03-17T05:28:35Z patrixl: and while my first two attempts involved Hunchentoot and Wookie, seems like most of the code I wrote to handle routing, plugins, hooks etc are already present in Radiance
2018-03-17T05:29:26Z patrixl: just trying to figure out how that app should be structured and built, since the examples I see are basically each of them one "virtual-module" and nothing more, while I'm assuming what I want will have multiple virtual modules and some kind of main app which may or may not be a virtual module
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2018-03-17T06:36:03Z fouric actually sort of wonders which Lispers do webdev
2018-03-17T06:36:18Z fouric: ...aside from the obvious Shirakumo/Shinmera, that is.
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2018-03-17T06:37:54Z aeth: There is a #lispweb but it was dead so I left it because I am in far too many channels. I don't know if it is more active now.
2018-03-17T06:38:24Z patrixl checks
2018-03-17T06:38:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-17T06:38:31Z patrixl: it exists, not many people there though
2018-03-17T06:38:38Z patrixl: morning beach
2018-03-17T06:38:52Z patrixl: (mid-afternoon here though)
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2018-03-17T06:41:48Z patrixl: well I suppose I'll go ahead, start coding, and see what happens lol
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2018-03-17T06:49:30Z beach: patrixl: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2018-03-17T06:50:24Z patrixl: lol cool
2018-03-17T06:51:05Z patrixl: it might have been harder to get if I wasn't living in Japan where "ohayo" (good morning) is kinda used the same way between friends and colleagues
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2018-03-17T07:04:04Z pjb: Ave!
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2018-03-17T09:25:39Z beach: For Second Climacs, I wanted to render the cursor between two characters (or at the beginning or the end of a line) and not like Emacs does on top of the character after point.  So currently, I render the characters following the cursor a bit further to the right than their normal position.
2018-03-17T09:25:40Z beach: This way of rendering is apparently not acceptable to some people.  So I need some hints as to how to render the cursor between two characters without changing the position of the characters to the right.  Any ideas?  Maybe a one-pixel dark vertical bar between characters and some lighter background surrounding it?
2018-03-17T09:29:51Z pjb: or drawing over?
2018-03-17T09:30:14Z beach: Over what?
2018-03-17T09:30:17Z beach: The characters?
2018-03-17T09:30:33Z pjb: yes
2018-03-17T09:30:50Z flip214: beach: one-pixel might be too small, especially on high DPI displays.
2018-03-17T09:30:52Z beach: Then the characters won't be visible.
2018-03-17T09:31:09Z pjb: if it's blinking no problem.
2018-03-17T09:31:11Z flip214: I'd suggest something like a color-inverted uppercase I in the middle
2018-03-17T09:31:26Z flip214: pjb: 1 pixel is too small, how would blinking help?
2018-03-17T09:31:41Z flip214: in the middle _on top of_ the characters.
2018-03-17T09:31:53Z pjb: showing the char half the time.
2018-03-17T09:31:54Z flip214: perhaps at 50% opacity, so that the characters below are still readable.
2018-03-17T09:31:57Z flip214: or below?
2018-03-17T09:31:58Z beach: OK, let me see if I can whip up a figure...
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2018-03-17T09:32:55Z flip214: beach: https://thenounproject.com/term/text-cursor/237391/
2018-03-17T09:34:26Z flip214: although, TBH, I would associate this kind of cursor with "insert characters here", so if pressing some (character) key then overwrites the next character I'd be surprised
2018-03-17T09:34:27Z beach: Yes I understand.
2018-03-17T09:34:38Z flip214: block cursor == overwrite.
2018-03-17T09:34:43Z flip214: "I" cursor == insert.
2018-03-17T09:34:45Z Shinmera: I mean, just look at how text inputs work in almost everything (browsers, etc)
2018-03-17T09:34:50Z flip214: at least that's my association
2018-03-17T09:35:03Z beach: flip214: Yes and that is exactly what emacs does not do.
2018-03-17T09:35:11Z Shinmera: It's almost always a 1px line that is drawn on top.
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2018-03-17T09:39:54Z beach: Something like this: http://metamodular.com/cursor.pdf
2018-03-17T09:42:27Z beach: I don't know how to do a blinking cursor with McCLIM.  Maybe it is possible.
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2018-03-17T09:44:23Z jackdaniel: one way to do that would be setting a scheduler which sends "blink" event which calls com-revert from handle-event associated with your sheet
2018-03-17T09:44:34Z jackdaniel: s/sends/queues/
2018-03-17T09:45:12Z beach: I guess so, yes.
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2018-03-17T12:14:07Z loke: Wow... Tha gavino sure is persistent
2018-03-17T12:14:20Z loke: Nothing like WJ though... THat guy... Man.
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2018-03-17T12:18:38Z sabrac: Any postmodern users on?
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2018-03-17T12:21:02Z loke: sabrac: I used to use it
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2018-03-17T12:22:57Z sabrac: I am collecting issues or enhancements that have not been flagged on github
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2018-03-17T13:10:50Z red-dot: :sabrac I am a postmodern user
2018-03-17T13:11:16Z red-dot: sabrac: sorry, got the colon wrong way 'round
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2018-03-17T13:12:47Z loginoob: I'm reading CL-gentle introduction to symbolic computation. How can i check if my answers are correct for the exercises
2018-03-17T13:13:08Z beach: You can show them here.
2018-03-17T13:13:27Z Bike: put anything more than a line in a pastebin, though, please
2018-03-17T13:13:48Z loginoob: what about some theoratical question
2018-03-17T13:14:00Z beach: You can still show it here.
2018-03-17T13:14:25Z _death: if it's code, you can also ask your repl
2018-03-17T13:14:29Z beach: But show the question as well.  Not everybody has the book easily accessible.
2018-03-17T13:14:31Z loginoob: ok thank you.
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2018-03-17T13:14:41Z beach: _death: That's not enough though.
2018-03-17T13:15:12Z _death: beach: it's better to do that before asking here though
2018-03-17T13:15:18Z beach: Sure.
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2018-03-17T13:16:08Z loginoob: _death: will definitely check my answers in repl before asking
2018-03-17T13:18:53Z loginoob: I am not able to answer the question: PRove by contradiction that circular list cannot be constructed using just CONS. My answer from what i understood is that cons take two argument and i cannot give reference of first cell as second argument.
2018-03-17T13:22:05Z beach: That's right, but it's not by contradiction.  I wonder what he had in mind.
2018-03-17T13:22:49Z _death: loginoob: to do this indirect proof, you first assume that you can create a circular list using just CONS
2018-03-17T13:23:24Z _death: loginoob: then, you follow the consequence of this premise together with the definition he presents and arrive at a contradiction
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2018-03-17T13:26:44Z beach: loginoob: To create a cell, the successor cell must already exist.  I think you can derive a contradiction from that.
2018-03-17T13:26:49Z _death: since you arrived at a contradiction solely by using this premise and the definition (and the rules and axioms of logic), the premise must be false
2018-03-17T13:28:18Z _death: but beach is right.. I doubt gentle is meant to require knowledge of natural deduction :)
2018-03-17T13:28:43Z loginoob: so, let's say circular list contains three elements A B C and by making it from cons i have to cons A with cdr of C but that would make an infinite list and making it more than three elements so i cannot construct it using cons. Is that right by contradiction?
2018-03-17T13:29:58Z beach: Something like that.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.
2018-03-17T13:30:06Z loginoob: ok
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2018-03-17T13:56:43Z _death: a circular list looks like #1=(X . #1#) ... assume it was created by just using cons.  then, #1# must have been passed to cons in the cdr position, but #1# has not yet been created at that time..
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2018-03-17T14:02:53Z loginoob: _death: A cell is created after C and to point C to A cell A must have been created before C so that's the contradiction. ok, got it. Thank you :)
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2018-03-17T15:43:05Z comborico1611: How do you automatically log into channels which require registered nicknames, when the nickserv executes after autologin executes?
2018-03-17T15:44:05Z onion: i would like to know that too
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2018-03-17T15:46:58Z Bike: you can use the server password to specify your nickserv details.
2018-03-17T15:47:10Z Bike: by uh... i don't even remember how it works, just a moment.
2018-03-17T15:47:22Z Bike: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration under "logging in"
2018-03-17T15:47:47Z Bike: also sasl, but i've never figured that out, unless i did and forgot about it.
2018-03-17T15:54:22Z comborico1611: Hmm.  That's got to be one of the stranger things of the computing world.  Reminds me of something like inventing the aersol can before the wheel.
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2018-03-17T16:03:16Z comborico1611: Thanks for info, though!
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2018-03-17T16:19:13Z onion: whoaa, deftype + typecase
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2018-03-17T18:33:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: unless someone else has volunteered, I'd like to take over maintainership of linedit
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2018-03-17T18:35:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure what the right way to go about this is, since the current maintainer is unresponsive
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2018-03-17T19:00:25Z rme: I want to make a ccl 1.12 release pretty soon.  We currently bundle ASDF 3.2.0.  Will upgrading to ASDF 3.3.1 cause more harm than good?
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2018-03-17T19:03:19Z Shinmera: So far
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2018-03-17T20:12:14Z khrbt: fiddlerwoaroof: Xach had suggested moving linedit to sharplispers.  2018-01-18.log:[04:57:11] <Xach> khrbt: maybe we could move the github one to sharplispers and call it canon? i can check with nikodemus
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2018-03-17T20:23:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: That would work too
2018-03-17T20:24:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, linedit is only broken because madeira-port doesn't work with ASDF-3.3.1, which makes the fix a little tricky
2018-03-17T20:25:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, unless previous versions of ASDF support :if-feature, we have to either do something fancy or choose between forwards and backwards compatibility
2018-03-17T20:25:33Z fiddlerwoaroof doesn't like backwards-incompatible changes in core systems
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2018-03-17T20:29:25Z rme: makes you long for the days of (load "load.lisp")
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2018-03-17T20:40:00Z pjb: I still have loader files,  only they setup asdf:*central-registry*, and use quickload to load the system.  ;-)
2018-03-17T20:41:02Z pjb: rme: it is better if the asdf version is consistent with what is provided by the other implementations.
2018-03-17T20:44:28Z khrbt: what is the reason for implementations to supply their own copy of asdf?
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2018-03-17T20:45:22Z rme: In ccl's case, it's just to make life a little easier for users.
2018-03-17T20:46:33Z pjb: khrbt: a bootstrap question.
2018-03-17T20:47:28Z pjb: users would have to locate an asdf and load it themselves.  That said, this still has to be implemented for when a newer version is needed.
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2018-03-17T20:54:32Z khrbt: doesn't quicklisp also include its own copy of asdf?  If most people use quicklisp, wouldn't they get automatically get asdf too?
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2018-03-17T20:55:05Z Bike: it has a really old asdf.
2018-03-17T20:57:16Z khrbt: How all these pieces fit together is really mysterious to me :/
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2018-03-17T21:20:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone here use VivaceGraph?
2018-03-17T21:22:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v3/
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2018-03-17T21:30:07Z attila_lendvai: khrbt: asdf goes out of his way to detect old versions and upgrade them if needed, while avoid accidentally downgrading. all maintained lisps ship with a relatively fresh asdf, while the one in ql is rather old, so it's practically irrelevant that it's there.
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2018-03-17T21:32:18Z attila_lendvai: fiddlerwoaroof: and others don't like cruft accumulating due to a strict backward compatibility policy. not updating is always an option... especially since DVCS and tags made integration that much easier
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2018-03-17T21:37:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I generally dislike the accumulation of cruft due to backwards compatibility
2018-03-17T21:37:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the more important something is to a language, the more important backwards compatibility is
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2018-03-17T21:44:03Z attila_lendvai: sure, but for how long? 2 years? 5 years? 10+ years?
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2018-03-17T21:44:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I had my preference, the build system for a language would never make a backwards incompatible change
2018-03-17T21:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Otherwise, it should be at least as stable as the language specification
2018-03-17T21:44:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: ;)
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2018-03-17T21:47:45Z attila_lendvai: well, sure, and besides that I want world peace...
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2018-03-17T22:28:11Z jeosol_:  I need some help guys. I have been getting this error in my backtrace: 0: (SB-VM::TAIL-CALL-SYMBOL 19 19 0) and that the function "some-package-name::get-cell-p0" is not defined. The latter function is a macro that takes 3 arguments
2018-03-17T22:28:21Z jeosol_: The get-cell-p0 is a function, but it is generated automatically by a macro when I start the application.
2018-03-17T22:28:32Z jeosol_: Need some help regarding the (sb-vm::tail-call-symbol ....) error
2018-03-17T22:29:11Z jeosol_: Anyone else encounted this error before?
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2018-03-17T22:31:16Z Bike: never seen that before, but it's not an error. the actual error is that your thing isn't defined?
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2018-03-17T22:34:16Z onion: aeth: have you read Common Lisp Recipes ?
2018-03-17T22:35:59Z jeosol_: but the function is defined in the same package as the caller
2018-03-17T22:36:25Z Bike: i don't know how that's relevant
2018-03-17T22:36:29Z Bike: what's the code look like?
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2018-03-17T22:38:32Z jeosol_: @bike: (LOOP FOR POINT ACROSS #(0 1 2 3) COLLECT (FUNCALL (INTERN (FORMAT NIL "GET-CELL-P~A" POINT)) I J K))
2018-03-17T22:39:13Z jeosol_: That is the call I am making. I am constructing the actual function to call on the fly, and this is usually not known ahead of time. So I generated several functions by macro when I start
2018-03-17T22:39:30Z jeosol_: That code snippet is part of a function call.
2018-03-17T22:39:51Z Bike: i was hoping for like, enough that i could maybe run it, or run parts of it
2018-03-17T22:41:22Z jeosol_: I see.
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2018-03-17T22:41:40Z Bike: it's hard to gauge what's going on with this little context
2018-03-17T22:41:51Z Bike: why do you think the sb-vm::tail-call-symbol thing is relevant?
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2018-03-17T22:47:12Z onion: ,clhs define-method-combination
2018-03-17T22:48:03Z Bike: clhs define-method-combination
2018-03-17T22:48:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2018-03-17T22:48:29Z onion: ty
2018-03-17T22:49:02Z Bike: what are you doing with it?
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2018-03-17T23:13:21Z jeosol_: @bike, the sb-vm::tail-call-symbol is the last call on the SBCL backtrace
2018-03-17T23:14:07Z Bike: what does the backtrace look like?
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2018-03-17T23:19:42Z aeth: onion: Yes
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2018-03-17T23:22:21Z aeth: onion: It has been a while, but going through parts of the book, iirc, it looks like the book generally agrees with the consensus of this channel, except when the author promotes his own libraries (can't really fault the author for that).
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2018-03-17T23:25:35Z jeosol_: @bike: I think I may have spotted the error, not sure. I checked the following and it returns nil : (eql (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-P~A" 0)) (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-~A" :PO)))
2018-03-17T23:26:18Z jeosol_: The form on the right site is now I defined the get-cell-p0 function initially (form on right side of eql), and then I am calling it in a different function as the form on the left side of the eql symbol
2018-03-17T23:27:02Z jeosol_: There are some reasons I am calling it that way, but I have to change this it seems.
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2018-03-17T23:37:15Z onion: Bike: just reading about CLOS right now
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2018-03-18T00:50:23Z jeosol_: what is the better way to create function name at runtime. For get-cell-p0 function I am doing something like: (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-P~A" 0), I need to create other corresponding functions like get-cell-p1, get-cell-p2, etc
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2018-03-18T00:54:31Z Bike: well, usually you don't do that. if you do do that, something like that is fine, though you should use an explicit package and prefer find-symbol.
2018-03-18T00:59:43Z jeosol_: These functions are defined by a macro when I start the application. Then depending on the argument to another function, I have to pick one of get-cell-p1, get-cell-p2, etc
2018-03-18T01:00:28Z Bike: you cana't define the functions earlier?
2018-03-18T01:02:02Z jeosol_: @bike, what I mean is that, I need to call get-cell-p0, or get-cell-p1, as follows (funcall (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-P~A" 0)) I J K) -- this if for get-cell-p0. The get-cell-? functions have been defined earlier by a macro and take three
2018-03-18T01:02:06Z jeosol_: arguments i j k
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2018-03-18T01:08:05Z Bike: but you have to select which at runtime in that way?
2018-03-18T01:08:20Z Bike: i mean, you could also put the functions in a vector and index into it, or the like.
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2018-03-18T01:08:37Z Bike: or just have a get-cell that takes another argument for the index.
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2018-03-18T01:16:20Z jeosol_: @bike, that sounds imilar to what I do already: (LOOP FOR POINT ACROSS #(0 1 2 3) COLLECT (FUNCALL (INTERN (FORMAT NIL "GET-CELL-P~A" POINT)) I J K))
2018-03-18T01:16:33Z jeosol_: that is the snippet inside the function that calls get-cell-?
2018-03-18T01:16:56Z jeosol_: I guess the way I am making the call to get-cell-? is not "kosher"
2018-03-18T01:17:26Z Xach: in that situation i'd use find-symbol instead of intern
2018-03-18T01:18:30Z Bike: it's not a matter of being kosher, there's just easier ways to do it
2018-03-18T01:18:59Z Bike: you could have (defvar *get-cell-functions* (vector ...)) and then just (funcall (aref *get-cell-functions* point) i j k), for example
2018-03-18T01:24:50Z jeosol_: I see. much cleaner
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2018-03-18T01:28:57Z Bike: or just have like (defun get-cell-p (point i j k) (case point ...)) if they're similar enough
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2018-03-18T01:35:14Z jeosol_: I adjusted the macro to use the first format. I just packed the functions into the defvar. they have similar syntax. basically, the functions are extracting vertices from a polygon
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2018-03-18T04:21:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-18T04:23:47Z pierpa: Already 5am! time flies.
2018-03-18T04:24:00Z pierpa: Good morning!
2018-03-18T04:24:59Z SaganMan: Morning peeps
2018-03-18T04:25:21Z SaganMan: 5AM? you must be somewhere in europe pierpa?
2018-03-18T04:25:36Z pierpa: yes, in Italy
2018-03-18T04:26:06Z SaganMan: nice
2018-03-18T04:26:21Z pierpa: no, Nice is in France!
2018-03-18T04:26:21Z SaganMan: pierpa: do you do lisp for fun?
2018-03-18T04:26:30Z pierpa: (sorry couldn't resist :)
2018-03-18T04:26:42Z pierpa: yes, for fun
2018-03-18T04:26:48Z SaganMan: pierpa: still beats living in a third world nation
2018-03-18T04:26:54Z onion: can defadvice be done with CLOS ?
2018-03-18T04:27:18Z pierpa: defadvice is not CL. So, check your implementation docs
2018-03-18T04:28:40Z fouric: onion: defadvice is an emacs thing, right? you install a function to be run before/after another one?
2018-03-18T04:29:13Z onion: *can defadvice done with plain CLOS :around etc.? i know it is part of lispworks and emacs. and i suppose LW wouldnt have it if it could be done with plain CLOS.
2018-03-18T04:29:43Z pierpa: not only emacs. Some CL implementations have an advice system
2018-03-18T04:29:56Z beach: onion: You may have to explain what defadvice does, since it is not standard Common Lisp.
2018-03-18T04:30:44Z pierpa: beach, it allows to have some CLOS functionality over non-generic functions. Meant for debugging purposes.
2018-03-18T04:30:52Z pierpa: beach: ^
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2018-03-18T04:31:42Z beach: Thanks.
2018-03-18T04:32:04Z pierpa: for example, it allows to patch functions which we don't have the source of, with pre/post methods, and the like
2018-03-18T04:32:34Z onion: https://ptpb.pw/UCHb
2018-03-18T04:33:29Z fouric: my eyes
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2018-03-18T04:34:13Z epony: close em
2018-03-18T04:34:26Z epony: morning people
2018-03-18T04:34:32Z beach: Hello epony.
2018-03-18T04:34:38Z epony: sun is bright
2018-03-18T04:34:42Z epony: lovely beach
2018-03-18T04:34:45Z beach: onion: So what is your question?  Do you want to implement defadvice in systems that don't have it?
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2018-03-18T04:35:36Z pierpa: here's the LW docs: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw445/LWRM/html/lwref-268.htm#pgfId-1187582
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2018-03-18T04:51:40Z beach: Oh well.
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2018-03-18T05:30:08Z blisp[m]: Finally. Hey everyone
2018-03-18T05:31:09Z blisp[m]: Voidengineer here. aka cryptonarauder aka evilangel. Ive seen some shit. Dont ask lol
2018-03-18T05:32:13Z blisp[m]: Been dying to get back on here. Got some great ideas. Starting with a block list processor.
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2018-03-18T05:39:35Z pierpa: what is a block list processor?
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2018-03-18T05:59:46Z stacksmith: Oh I get it.  It processes block lists!
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2018-03-18T06:19:54Z beach: Here is a nice little project for someone who needs practice with CLOS: Design a protocol for input methods, and implement a few common ones.  I am particularly interested in latin-1 and the telex input method for Vietnamese.   Such a library would be immensely useful.  I would use it in Second Climacs, and in various CLIM applications.  And jmercouris can use it in the Next browser.
2018-03-18T06:21:41Z beach: It is not entirely trivial, because it must be possible to obtain effects such as the underlining of "preliminary" characters as Emacs does, and to handle erasing correctly.
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2018-03-18T06:42:35Z jackdaniel: afair there is some multilingual support in CLIM-TOS wrt input methods
2018-03-18T06:42:53Z beach: Interesting.
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2018-03-18T06:43:35Z beach: So the person taking on this project should study what CLIM-TOS does. :)
2018-03-18T06:43:51Z jackdaniel: right, that's why I have mentioned it
2018-03-18T06:43:59Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-18T06:47:43Z jackdaniel: I'm refining my pane hirerachy introspection tool
2018-03-18T06:48:09Z jackdaniel: now I have "live" preview in the "drawn" representation
2018-03-18T06:48:40Z beach: Nice tool.
2018-03-18T06:49:15Z shrdlu68: I love how active this channel is.
2018-03-18T06:49:36Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: what do you mean?
2018-03-18T06:49:56Z shrdlu68: You don't realize what a nice community CL has until you go into other languages' channels.
2018-03-18T06:50:28Z beach thanks for the advice and will stay out of those channels. 
2018-03-18T06:51:11Z shrdlu68: I've never had a question go unanswered here, people try to at least acknowledge questions/comments.
2018-03-18T06:51:40Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-18T06:52:35Z onion: beach: hmmmm, i've been thinking of something like that for a while, input methods/touch keyboard. and it came up again recently, i will check out CLIM-TOS  =)
2018-03-18T06:59:51Z onion: jackdaniel: what are you working on?
2018-03-18T07:00:53Z beach: onion: jackdaniel is doing a fantastic job maintaining and improving McCLIM.
2018-03-18T07:01:35Z onion: ohhh
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2018-03-18T07:02:40Z beach: onion: Since jackdaniel started doing that, several other people are now helping out as well.  I am very pleased with the way things are going.
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2018-03-18T07:04:30Z onion: that is great to hear. CLIM-TOS i notice is an implementation from allegro? i notice theres a few, are they all wrong licenses or too old or not portable ?
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2018-03-18T07:04:56Z jackdaniel: onion: currently debugging mirror panes and protocols associated with them
2018-03-18T07:05:01Z beach: onion: We started McCLIM way before CLIM-TOS was made available.
2018-03-18T07:05:24Z jackdaniel: well, actually franz/clim2 was made available, clim-tos is fork to make it work on sbcl and ccl
2018-03-18T07:05:24Z beach: onion: And McCLIM is a better implementation than the commercial ones anyway.
2018-03-18T07:06:02Z jackdaniel: I hack on both, though McCLIM is way more complete (and I like it more)
2018-03-18T07:09:11Z beach: onion: We started McCLIM way before the commercial CLIM implementations were made available.
2018-03-18T07:09:20Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/9f02a348 – application on the left "mimics"  pane hierarchy on the right
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2018-03-18T07:09:49Z jackdaniel: still need to fix scaling to map better the proportions
2018-03-18T07:10:02Z jackdaniel: when I change the application which I do preview, preview updates as well
2018-03-18T07:10:21Z beach: Some nice tools you got there.
2018-03-18T07:10:41Z jackdaniel: yes, I plan to polish it a little and add to clim-examples
2018-03-18T07:10:44Z onion: oh nice! going to update my sources and then poke around TOS version and see what i can learn. i would like to work with japanese and right-to-left hebrew and other text stuff, it seems, and i am not sure that emacs is the place for it
2018-03-18T07:10:52Z jackdaniel: this will be very useful for writing new backends
2018-03-18T07:11:05Z jackdaniel: (as a debugging tool)
2018-03-18T07:11:24Z jackdaniel: notice that "composite" panes are also drawn in the preview
2018-03-18T07:11:30Z jackdaniel: despite being invisible in real application
2018-03-18T07:12:00Z onion: (my first project was gnustep to which i draw a lot of parallels with mcclim . touch-enabled is where i am looking toward)
2018-03-18T07:13:05Z beach: GNUstep is written in C++, right?
2018-03-18T07:13:14Z pjb: Objective-C
2018-03-18T07:13:17Z onion: and clim3 is considered incomplete? i remember asking before
2018-03-18T07:13:21Z beach: Oh, right.
2018-03-18T07:13:33Z beach: onion: Yes, I have abandoned it for the time being.
2018-03-18T07:13:39Z onion: yeah GNUstep implements OPENSTEP for the most part, where is no Cocoa Touch on iPhones .
2018-03-18T07:13:41Z onion: now*
2018-03-18T07:13:46Z beach: onion: There is a major design flaw that I need to fix first.
2018-03-18T07:14:21Z onion: beach: ohh, in clim3 the standard or implementation ? would it be silly to ask if 2 and 3 are both useful seperately.. ? hmm
2018-03-18T07:14:34Z onion: or can they be implemented together ~
2018-03-18T07:14:50Z beach: CLIM3 is a specification.  CLIMatis is the implementation I worked on in parallel with the specification.
2018-03-18T07:15:10Z beach: It is very different from CLIM II.
2018-03-18T07:15:25Z onion: ah! hmmm
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2018-03-18T07:16:08Z onion: so the flaw is in climatic, or the spec?
2018-03-18T07:16:12Z onion: climatis*
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2018-03-18T07:16:54Z beach: In the specification.  I didn't allow for non-contiguous regions for output records.
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2018-03-18T08:28:02Z jackdaniel: yet another pic (this one is actually an accident - a bug propagated surrounding-output-with-border "upwards"): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYjqsfiX0AEgSKx.jpg
2018-03-18T08:31:11Z beach: Nice though.
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2018-03-18T08:35:29Z jackdaniel: hm, after a thought - it is not a bug, it is just it "covered" rectangle drawn before it (because there is a pane name it top-left corner and "dot" in bottom-right) - both surrounded by a border
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2018-03-18T08:47:55Z beach: I am guessing that tools like that are going to turn out to be invaluable for debugging pane hierarchies.  At the moment I just use Clouseau on the application frame, but that is quite a tedious technique.
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2018-03-18T08:49:33Z jackdaniel: that's why I'm writing it :)
2018-03-18T08:49:46Z beach: Indeed. :)
2018-03-18T08:49:59Z jackdaniel: I've already found some bugs thanks to that (because it is easier to "see" the problem than deduce it)
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2018-03-18T08:50:22Z beach: I can imagine.
2018-03-18T08:50:49Z jackdaniel: person with enough time could hack it into something for prototyping clim application layouts too I suppose
2018-03-18T08:51:12Z beach: That's an interesting idea.
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2018-03-18T09:03:17Z blisp[m]: Which lisp are you guys running on android?
2018-03-18T09:03:51Z blisp[m]: Lol that reminds me of a quote from Pineapple Express. Have you ever seen the back of a dollar bill man well have you ever seen the back of a dollar bill on weed
2018-03-18T09:04:04Z blisp[m]: Lol
2018-03-18T09:04:18Z jackdaniel: blisp[m]: ECL works on android, you may look for it in google play
2018-03-18T09:04:29Z jackdaniel: EQL5 project provides nice gui for it
2018-03-18T09:04:30Z blisp[m]: oh good.
2018-03-18T09:04:46Z blisp[m]: Fdroid or play?
2018-03-18T09:05:02Z Shinmera: SBCL, CLISP, and LispWorks also work, but aren't available as apps, as far as I know.
2018-03-18T09:05:04Z jackdaniel: it's not in fdroid yet, but apk is possible to download
2018-03-18T09:05:22Z blisp[m]: Word thanks
2018-03-18T09:05:28Z Shinmera: CCL works too, I think.
2018-03-18T09:05:35Z Shinmera: Anything with ARM64 support, really.
2018-03-18T09:05:45Z jackdaniel: fwiw lispworks has app (not sure if it is available in any store though)
2018-03-18T09:05:47Z blisp[m]: Does anyone know why there's no clisp FreeBSD
2018-03-18T09:05:55Z blisp[m]: Is it the license?
2018-03-18T09:06:17Z beach: blisp[m]: You are aware that CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, right.
2018-03-18T09:06:20Z jackdaniel: doubtfully, maybe they decided they do not need that many CL implementations
2018-03-18T09:06:23Z beach: And not an abbreviation for it.
2018-03-18T09:06:51Z blisp[m]: Hey beach
2018-03-18T09:06:54Z blisp[m]: Yup i am
2018-03-18T09:07:02Z beach: Just checking.
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2018-03-18T09:07:29Z blisp[m]: Im just curious is there are any FreeBSD users in here you know why there's no clisp in ports
2018-03-18T09:07:59Z beach: Why in particular are you looking for CLISP?
2018-03-18T09:08:03Z Shinmera: no users is my guess.
2018-03-18T09:09:16Z blisp[m]: Well honestly no real reason just that I started with it and I was surprised to see that it wasn't there
2018-03-18T09:09:47Z blisp[m]: I thought it might make it better lisp for scripting actually
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2018-03-18T09:13:29Z blisp[m]: Beach, what's the status of your list OS is it working well enough to provide any significant advantage over a non list OS especially for doing tasks that lisp was made for? And lastly what's the chances that it would support something like opencl?
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2018-03-18T09:14:19Z blisp[m]: Are you still wanted to be super purist I would just write my own opencl implementation in lisp but I don't like to reinvent the wheel all the time
2018-03-18T09:14:25Z beach: blisp[m]: I assume you are referring to the LispOS in my specification?
2018-03-18T09:14:26Z blisp[m]: I'm sorry Google is a little drunk tonight
2018-03-18T09:14:28Z beach: It doesn't exist.
2018-03-18T09:14:39Z blisp[m]: What about the one mezzanine or something like that
2018-03-18T09:14:49Z blisp[m]: Mezano no se
2018-03-18T09:15:11Z beach: What is opencl?
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2018-03-18T09:15:48Z blisp[m]: Open compute
2018-03-18T09:16:00Z blisp[m]: For hashing etc
2018-03-18T09:16:46Z blisp[m]: Weird so I thought mezzano was yours. Steven looks like it's under active development
2018-03-18T09:16:49Z beach: I am afraid I don't know what you are talking about.  Sorry.
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2018-03-18T09:17:04Z blisp[m]: Loool
2018-03-18T09:17:09Z beach: Mezzano is actively developed, yes, but I am not one of the developers.
2018-03-18T09:17:25Z blisp[m]: I remember you telling me many years ago that you were riding a common list operating system I was asking about that
2018-03-18T09:17:49Z blisp[m]: Oh then i dont want it
2018-03-18T09:18:00Z blisp[m]: Ill wait for yours lol
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2018-03-18T09:33:45Z cess11_: blisp[m]: For scripting BSD you might want to give picolisp a shot.
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2018-03-18T09:59:14Z pjb: blisp[m]: clisp runs on FreeBSD.  That the FreeBSD people don't care for making a clisp package is their problem. You can just fetch the sources of clisp and compile it on any system you care to use.
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2018-03-18T10:19:08Z Pierpa: Afaiu, LW sells a runtime for Android and then a regular LW can deliver apps for it. It's not a development system which runs on android.
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2018-03-18T10:27:11Z blisp[m]: Pjb sup meng. Thanks am doing so now. I think freebsd needs package maintainers
2018-03-18T10:27:40Z blisp[m]: Oh good thats fine too and fits their use case
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2018-03-18T10:45:16Z Younder: Ubuntu is boring, but well maintained and reasonably secure. I like Qubes OS, but the lack of NVIDIA support is unacceptable to me.
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2018-03-18T11:20:04Z ebzzry: Is there a LispWorks channel?
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2018-03-18T11:26:35Z phoe: ebzzry: LW has its own support forums.
2018-03-18T11:27:32Z ebzzry: phoe: ok
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2018-03-18T11:34:24Z pjb: there's a lw maillist.
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2018-03-18T12:08:23Z Younder: 1200 EUR for a Hobbyist LispWorks edition witch you can't use commercially, has no maintenance and no service.. These people need a reality check!
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2018-03-18T12:10:40Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure they know about running their own business better than you.
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2018-03-18T12:12:42Z Younder: Now you pay 1400 EUR for a professional version for which you have at lets a chance to make the money back. It they had sold the Hobbyist version for 200 EUR, then a hobbyist decides to take the product commercially and pays 1200 EUR ekstra for that, now that would make sense.
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2018-03-18T12:14:51Z Younder: Shinmera, It is not like other company's charge that much. They seem stuck. They sell in small quantity so the need to charge a lot. Because of their high price they don't make many sales. Catch 22
2018-03-18T12:15:12Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure they know about running their own business better than you.
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2018-03-18T12:19:59Z Younder: Shinmera, Well we all choose what we put our faith in.
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2018-03-18T12:25:15Z Shinmera: I don't have faith, I just know that you know much less about it than they do.
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2018-03-18T12:26:44Z Younder: How so? You don't know me either. Now you are just being derogative.
2018-03-18T12:27:08Z Shinmera: You don't know their audience, their sales, their structure, nothing. You're an outsider.
2018-03-18T12:27:26Z jackdaniel: pricing discussions / business advices belong to ---> #lispcafe :)
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2018-03-18T12:30:22Z pjb: Younder: if you compare the price/features of MoCL, I would say that Hobbyist LispWorks Ed is worth it.
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2018-03-18T12:34:05Z Pierpa: Still, no possibile maintenance, even paying extra. This is a bummer
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2018-03-18T12:49:28Z beach: ebzzry: It would be very strange if there were a channel on Freenode dedicated to a commercial software product.
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2018-03-18T12:55:46Z shka: beach: reality is so often strange
2018-03-18T12:55:51Z shka: beach: http://www.freenode-windows.org/channel-guidelines
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2018-03-18T13:22:25Z phoe: Younder: if they're still in the market, it most likely means something
2018-03-18T13:24:41Z Younder: phoe, yeah, old, faithful, professional customers. Their product is after all quite good.
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2018-03-18T13:38:12Z ebzzry: beach: I agree.
2018-03-18T13:38:30Z ebzzry: The x86_64 pro license for Linux is _expensive_.
2018-03-18T13:38:58Z beach: How much?
2018-03-18T13:41:35Z Pierpa: There's software which costs 500000 EUR per seat, it's much simpler than a cl development system, and which I suspect that sells more copies than lw...
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2018-03-18T13:42:51Z Pierpa: Correction: 500KEUR per seat per year
2018-03-18T13:43:58Z Pierpa: In a professional environment, lw practically is free
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2018-03-18T13:47:35Z beach: Sounds right.
2018-03-18T13:48:34Z Xach: That is my experience as well.
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2018-03-18T14:10:35Z __Myst__: Hi. I'm trying to write a lisp interpreter
2018-03-18T14:10:43Z __Myst__: I was wondering a bit of a weird question
2018-03-18T14:11:04Z __Myst__: In lisp, is there any case where something is mutable?
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2018-03-18T14:11:21Z beach: __Myst__: Yes, almost all cases.
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2018-03-18T14:11:40Z __Myst__: Can you provide an example? For some reason, I have the conception that most things in LISP are immutable.
2018-03-18T14:11:42Z Shinmera: Note that, in this channel, Lisp means Common Lisp.
2018-03-18T14:11:43Z beach: __Myst__: in case you wonder, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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2018-03-18T14:11:52Z __Myst__: Shinmera: That's fine, I'm trying to implement a Common Lisp-like niterpreter.
2018-03-18T14:11:58Z beach: __
2018-03-18T14:12:11Z Bike: well, in common lisp most things are mutable.
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2018-03-18T14:12:15Z __Myst__: I'm obviously not trying to get 100% semantics because that would be hard + this is just a toy project
2018-03-18T14:12:21Z beach: __Myst__: (let ((x (list 'a 'b))) (setf (car x) 'c))
2018-03-18T14:12:34Z __Myst__: Wow, that's actually kind of crazy.
2018-03-18T14:13:01Z beach: __Myst__: Common Lisp is not a functional language in that sense.
2018-03-18T14:13:08Z __Myst__: Am I correct in thinking that integers, booleans and strings are immutable??
2018-03-18T14:13:22Z Shinmera: strings are mutable.
2018-03-18T14:13:27Z __Myst__: awesome!
2018-03-18T14:13:40Z random-nick: what happened with the person that was writing a Common Lisp interpreter as an assignment?
2018-03-18T14:13:53Z __Myst__: So I should provide mutability for strings and cons?
2018-03-18T14:13:54Z Shinmera: I recommend learning CL before trying to write an interpreter.
2018-03-18T14:14:10Z shka: obiously
2018-03-18T14:14:26Z __Myst__: Shinmera: I know *some* CL; I've not delved into it too deep
2018-03-18T14:14:37Z __Myst__: Not deep enough to write an interperter it seems
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2018-03-18T14:14:45Z Shinmera: If you don't know an example of a mutation you've not delved at all
2018-03-18T14:14:47Z beach: __Myst__: And arrays, and standard objects, and structs.
2018-03-18T14:14:55Z shka: __Myst__: what (setf (car a) 5) does you think?
2018-03-18T14:14:57Z Shinmera: beach: and packages, and symbols, and ....
2018-03-18T14:15:03Z random-nick: __Myst__: strings are just a vector of characters
2018-03-18T14:15:18Z __Myst__: shka: `a.car = 5`
2018-03-18T14:15:29Z __Myst__: (in some pseudolanguage)
2018-03-18T14:15:41Z shka: so why do you ask if lists are mutable?
2018-03-18T14:15:44Z shka: they clearly are
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2018-03-18T14:15:59Z __Myst__: I'd never seen that before honestly, but I can assume what it means
2018-03-18T14:16:13Z Shinmera: minion: tell __Myst__ about pcl
2018-03-18T14:16:14Z minion: __Myst__: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-03-18T14:16:16Z __Myst__: Is there a good guide on the "internals" so to speak of CL so I can better learn this stuff?
2018-03-18T14:16:17Z shka: then you don't know lisp
2018-03-18T14:16:17Z Younder: Reading up would help. 'List in small pieces' by Quinnec covers design of scheme and lisp compilers and interpreters.
2018-03-18T14:16:24Z beach: __Myst__: You have some studying to do it seems.
2018-03-18T14:16:43Z __Myst__: Sure seems like it
2018-03-18T14:16:48Z shka: anyway, common lisp is not that easy to implement, perhaps try scheme instead
2018-03-18T14:16:53Z __Myst__: Scheme is easier?
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2018-03-18T14:17:15Z __Myst__: Might be interesting to first implement Scheme then once I got a proper version of that try CL
2018-03-18T14:17:17Z beach: __Myst__: Much.  But it also has mutable objects.
2018-03-18T14:17:34Z __Myst__: Thank you to all who have helped me.
2018-03-18T14:17:43Z beach: Good luck.
2018-03-18T14:17:44Z Shinmera: CL is a monumental effort to implement.
2018-03-18T14:17:55Z beach: Shinmera: Nah! :)
2018-03-18T14:18:16Z beach is just joking.
2018-03-18T14:18:19Z shka: I did that on Thursday.
2018-03-18T14:18:28Z onion: does that include CLOS? ._.
2018-03-18T14:18:46Z Shinmera: beach: Unfortunately quite a few people stumble in here thinking that it is in fact not monumental :/
2018-03-18T14:18:49Z beach: CLOS is not that complicated in fact.  Or at least I don't think so.
2018-03-18T14:19:02Z onion: ahh=)
2018-03-18T14:19:04Z __Myst__: Shinmera: like me =P
2018-03-18T14:19:10Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, I know.  I actually did know what I took it on.
2018-03-18T14:19:28Z Shinmera: beach: I trust you did, you have a wealth of experience already.
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2018-03-18T14:19:47Z beach: Yes, I was not the least surprised to see that it was hard. :)
2018-03-18T14:19:57Z random-nick: the only thing that might be difficult about scheme is closures and continuations
2018-03-18T14:20:27Z beach: It is always a trade-off.  It gets harder if you want good performance.
2018-03-18T14:20:28Z random-nick: and making it do something useful
2018-03-18T14:20:30Z Shinmera: __Myst__: You might also be interested in MAL, though it is off-topic here. https://github.com/kanaka/mal
2018-03-18T14:20:39Z Pierpa: And closures are exactly the same in cl
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2018-03-18T14:31:23Z stacksmith: As in lexical?
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2018-03-18T14:35:22Z stacksmith: beach: what was the hardest part for you?
2018-03-18T14:38:07Z stacksmith: In terms of a technical challenge  (as opposed to the drudgery of all the loose ends and the sheer volume)
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2018-03-18T14:44:57Z jackdaniel: regarding full-blown continuations it is the fact that you store execution state as data
2018-03-18T14:45:09Z jackdaniel: that means that most of the time you must use heap for it (not the stack)
2018-03-18T14:45:29Z stacksmith: Has everyone given up on spaghetti at this point?
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2018-03-18T14:47:04Z puchacz: hi, it does not feel right to use (format s "~a" it) to print character by character to a stream, where s is inside (with-output-to-string (s)....)
2018-03-18T14:47:24Z puchacz: I am sure there is something like print-character that does not print #\space but actual space
2018-03-18T14:47:36Z Bike: clhs write-char
2018-03-18T14:47:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_cha.htm
2018-03-18T14:47:42Z puchacz: Bike, tks
2018-03-18T14:47:53Z jackdaniel: puchacz: like (princ #\space) ?
2018-03-18T14:48:06Z jackdaniel: (princ #\space s)
2018-03-18T14:48:16Z shka: stacksmith: spaghetti?
2018-03-18T14:48:17Z puchacz: jackdaniel - yes, they both do what I want. thanks :)
2018-03-18T14:48:27Z beach: stacksmith: There have been no surprises so far.  But the hardest part is definitely the organization of the compiler so as to obtain good performance.
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2018-03-18T14:48:59Z stacksmith: shka: spagghetti stack, which is more of a tree...
2018-03-18T14:49:25Z shka: that's about continuations?
2018-03-18T14:49:32Z pjb: you can write a simple CL compiler easily enough, if you target a lisp VM.  Take for example clisp.  The compiler is a single source file.
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2018-03-18T14:49:32Z stacksmith: yeah
2018-03-18T14:50:00Z stacksmith: beach: are you using an off-the-shelf GC?
2018-03-18T14:50:24Z beach: stacksmith: No.  I invented that one.
2018-03-18T14:50:40Z stacksmith: generational?
2018-03-18T14:50:57Z beach: Two generations.  Per-thread nurseries and one global generation.
2018-03-18T14:51:07Z beach: Concurrent and parallel.
2018-03-18T14:51:10Z stacksmith: Nice.
2018-03-18T14:51:15Z beach: I haven't written the code yet, though.
2018-03-18T14:51:31Z beach: But that code should be fairly simple.
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2018-03-18T14:51:47Z beach: The hard part is debugging all the concurrent stuff.
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2018-03-18T14:52:35Z stacksmith: beach: have you looked at Self?  There were some nice ideas there, in-line polymorphic caches and such.  At the time code size was troublesome, but that's not an issue anymore...
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2018-03-18T14:53:00Z beach: stacksmith: I am aware of Self, but haven't studied the specific compilation techniques in depth.
2018-03-18T14:53:25Z beach: stacksmith: Yes, I am betting that code size is no longer a problem in order to simplify the compiler.
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2018-03-18T14:53:45Z stacksmith: The polymorphic caches could accelerate dynamic dispatch, and they are pretty simple.
2018-03-18T14:54:12Z beach: stacksmith: I already invented a dispatch technique that is now used in Clasp, and SICL.
2018-03-18T14:54:29Z stacksmith: Ah.
2018-03-18T14:54:34Z beach: It is very simple, but the tough part is the invalidation when things change.
2018-03-18T14:55:14Z stacksmith: Funny how that's always the hard part...
2018-03-18T14:55:16Z beach: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2018-03-18T14:55:36Z beach: stacksmith: Hard enough to give me a published paper. :)
2018-03-18T14:56:26Z beach: Oh, and for Common Lisp, I wanted the test for an object being obsolete to be free.
2018-03-18T14:56:29Z beach: And that's the case here.
2018-03-18T14:56:50Z beach: Obsolete, as in its class having changed after it was created.
2018-03-18T14:57:52Z beach: This paper describes the nursery collector, in case you are interested: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf
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2018-03-18T14:59:14Z shka: good paper, btw
2018-03-18T14:59:22Z beach: Thanks shka.
2018-03-18T14:59:45Z beach: Writing papers is a job that can be learned. :)
2018-03-18T15:00:29Z beach: Of course, some ideas are needed first.
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2018-03-18T15:00:35Z shka: i guess, so, haven't been in touch with academic publications ever since i finished master degree
2018-03-18T15:01:07Z beach: But ideas tend to come automatically when one works with a problem for a long period of time.
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2018-03-18T15:02:09Z shka: recently i attempted to help my colleague with his thesis, and oh my god, he had like huge stock piles of papers all from circa 0.5 IF journals
2018-03-18T15:02:36Z shka: now i consider myself to be any expert in bad papers
2018-03-18T15:02:43Z beach: Heh.
2018-03-18T15:02:45Z ebzzry: (Thank you for your inputs.)
2018-03-18T15:03:14Z beach: shka: True, there is a lot of bad writing out there, as Steven Pinker correctly points out.
2018-03-18T15:03:14Z stacksmith: beach: thanks for the links.  Enjoyable reading.
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2018-03-18T15:03:27Z beach: stacksmith: Pleasure.  Glad you like it.
2018-03-18T15:03:42Z shka: beach: that's literally Pulp Science
2018-03-18T15:05:27Z beach: Sorry, what is?
2018-03-18T15:05:58Z shka: those quickly written, by the numbers, bad papers
2018-03-18T15:06:04Z beach: Ah, yes.
2018-03-18T15:06:36Z beach: Some of them are bad, even though they took considerable effort to write.  Again, as Steven Pinker points out.  :)
2018-03-18T15:07:43Z beach: stacksmith: Oh and the other VERY HARD part is bootstrapping.  I will figure it out eventually, but it is taking a lot of time.
2018-03-18T15:08:30Z shka: I have to go, have a good evening
2018-03-18T15:08:37Z beach: Take care shka.
2018-03-18T15:11:59Z stacksmith: Bootstrapping is always an issue... I think SBCL fork was largely about that - and look at the mess today.
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2018-03-18T15:12:37Z beach: That is definitely what SBCL was about.  I am trying to take things one step further by not using any C code at all.
2018-03-18T15:13:20Z beach: I haven't looked at SBCL in detail, so I can't say whether it is messy or not.
2018-03-18T15:15:05Z stacksmith: Well, I should say it seems pretty complicated.
2018-03-18T15:15:45Z beach: I can believe it.
2018-03-18T15:16:07Z Bike: i doubt there's a way to do it that isn't in some way complicated
2018-03-18T15:16:12Z stacksmith: You kind of need a whole lot of Lisp to implement Lisp...
2018-03-18T15:16:32Z beach: stacksmith: Yes, I use full Common Lisp + closer-mop.
2018-03-18T15:16:42Z beach: Bike: I am convinced you are right.
2018-03-18T15:17:35Z beach: By using first-class global environments, I am hoping to avoid the technique that SBCL uses of renaming the packages.  And by bootstrapping from a full Common Lisp, I can use the CLOS machinery for stuff that would otherwise require special code.
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2018-03-18T15:22:48Z beach: Like, I can write (defclass symbol (t) ((%name ...) (%package ...)) :metaclass built-in-class)
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2018-03-18T16:01:47Z drmeister: I want to define a type...     (deftype molecule-type () '(member protein ligand ion solvent))
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2018-03-18T16:02:54Z drmeister: I have a property-list slot in my MOLECULE class and I want to set the :TYPE property that way.  That will lose type info.
2018-03-18T16:03:16Z drmeister: Hmm - I should probably have a 'type' slot for the molecule.
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2018-03-18T16:03:59Z drmeister: And not rely on a property list for something fundamental like this that can have one of a limited set of values.
2018-03-18T16:04:14Z beach: Why is the type called MOLECULE-TYPE rather than just MOLECULE.
2018-03-18T16:04:35Z beach: It sounds like it is a type of a type.
2018-03-18T16:05:07Z drmeister: I hadn't thought of that.   Thank you.
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2018-03-18T16:06:22Z drmeister: I should also have an 'undefined' value for when it hasn't been defined yet.
2018-03-18T16:06:45Z Shinmera: Slots can be unbound.
2018-03-18T16:07:06Z drmeister: Oh - right.
2018-03-18T16:10:25Z drmeister: Bike: Did you set up something to expose setf functions for C++ methods?
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2018-03-18T16:10:40Z Bike: yeah.
2018-03-18T16:10:42Z Bike: wait. no.
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2018-03-18T16:11:18Z drmeister: Functions only right now - got it.
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2018-03-18T16:23:20Z drmeister: I think we are gonna want one for C++ methods.    Or we have something to define reader, writer and read-write accessors.
2018-03-18T16:25:00Z drmeister: To do things in a more Common Lispy way.
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2018-03-18T16:30:13Z Bike: i've already wanted it a few times, yes
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2018-03-18T17:10:33Z jsjolen: Hi! Is there a way to check where a Quicklisp provided system comes from? (I want to know if a particular system is from a fork or the original author)
2018-03-18T17:11:05Z jsjolen: I tried inspecting objects returned from ql:system-apropos-list but I didn't find the relevant data
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2018-03-18T17:11:37Z Bike: where, as in like its place on github or gitlab or whatnot?
2018-03-18T17:12:36Z jsjolen: Bike:Exactly, where the source code was obtained
2018-03-18T17:13:16Z Bike: hm, i don't know how to do it automatically, but it's all in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects
2018-03-18T17:14:03Z jsjolen: Thank you, might be something worthy a pull request then :-)
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2018-03-18T17:22:05Z puchacz: hi, can somebody evaluate (ql:quickload "ironclad") in SBCL please?
2018-03-18T17:22:18Z puchacz: I am getting error on this source:  0: [RETRY] Retry compiling #<IRONCLAD-SOURCE-FILE "ironclad" "src" "public-key" "ed448">.
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2018-03-18T17:31:43Z stacksmith: Does anyone know why lambda list keywords are not keywords?
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2018-03-18T17:34:18Z Shinmera: Probably because keywords are usually reserved for either key-value pairs, or for specific tokens of their own. Lambda list keywords are markers of a different kind of structure.
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2018-03-18T17:36:26Z stacksmith: I suppose that is one reason.
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2018-03-18T17:47:32Z puchacz: st00pid compiler..... I changed #() to #.(make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) and it works
2018-03-18T17:47:57Z Shinmera: It's not a stupid compiler, the software is wrong.
2018-03-18T17:48:25Z puchacz: ironclad?
2018-03-18T17:48:28Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2018-03-18T17:49:25Z Shinmera: #( produces a simple-vector, which has an explicit element-type of T.
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2018-03-18T17:52:23Z puchacz: Shinmera, ah, I see
2018-03-18T17:52:28Z puchacz: so not the same thing
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2018-03-18T18:13:05Z stacksmith: Sanity check: I am considering writing a with- macro that creates an environment for dealing with a complicated data structure.  I was considering swinging in the package native to it with (use-package) for the body... Am I asking for trouble?
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2018-03-18T18:14:18Z random-nick: stacksmith: that would not work
2018-03-18T18:14:33Z random-nick: all the symbols in the macro would get read as the current package
2018-03-18T18:14:54Z random-nick: because the reader reads the whole expression at once
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2018-03-18T18:15:18Z random-nick: which is why you never see use-package as a non-toplevel form
2018-03-18T18:15:38Z random-nick: s/as the current package/in the current package/
2018-03-18T18:15:47Z stacksmith: Ah.
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2018-03-18T18:16:24Z stacksmith: Is there another way to do this?  It seems reasonable to not have to type the package over and over inside an environments made specifically for that task...
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2018-03-18T18:18:22Z stacksmith: A reader macro I suppose...
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2018-03-18T18:19:44Z Pierpa_: Your macro could substitute symbols in whatever package with other symbols in the correct package?
2018-03-18T18:19:58Z stacksmith: I was just thinking that...
2018-03-18T18:20:30Z Pierpa_: Won't win any elegance prize, though
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2018-03-18T18:21:55Z jackdaniel: slap eval on top of that and define classes that way
2018-03-18T18:22:01Z stacksmith: Actually not too bad, because I can use the same symbols in different environments for different structures that require similar treatment...  Kind of generic protocol...
2018-03-18T18:22:08Z Shinmera: I wrote a library that does something like that. https://github.com/Shinmera/deferred
2018-03-18T18:22:20Z Shinmera: I never ended up using it though
2018-03-18T18:23:15Z stacksmith: If I had a penny for every library I wrote that I never ended up using, I'd have not quite enough for a cup of coffee.
2018-03-18T18:26:35Z onion: 1.70...
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2018-03-18T18:27:47Z jackdaniel: if I hade a penny for every library I wrote I'd end up with two pennies
2018-03-18T18:29:39Z stacksmith: Wise.  I have to take something for my OCD.
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2018-03-18T18:31:43Z Shinmera: I'd have several pennies.
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2018-03-18T18:35:29Z bjorkintosh: does anyone still use cmucl or is it dead?
2018-03-18T18:35:58Z Shinmera: It's still receiving updates.
2018-03-18T18:36:21Z bjorkintosh: I see.
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2018-03-18T19:59:28Z sabrac: shimera: ?
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2018-03-18T20:01:10Z jcowan: I have heard it said that compiler macros are a Bad Thing (or at least do not deliver on their apparent promises), but I can't find the argument now.  Does anyone have an idea where or who?
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2018-03-18T20:07:41Z Pierpa_: Never heard this. Where did you hear it?
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2018-03-18T20:10:56Z bjorkintosh: jcowan, is it this, perhaps? http://www.mschaef.com/blog/tech/lisp/defmacro-coupling.html
2018-03-18T20:10:57Z jcowan: Pierpa_: If I remembered that I would just go there, but I can't remember
2018-03-18T20:11:19Z Pierpa_: Right. Sorry.
2018-03-18T20:12:24Z jcowan: bjorkintosh: I'll read that in detail, but I do remember it was specifically about define-compiler-macro, not defmacro in general.
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2018-03-18T20:16:31Z loginoob: is there something in emacs so that i can rapidly access online documentation of any lisp function or variable with few keystrokes?
2018-03-18T20:16:53Z bjorkintosh: loginoob, are you using slime?
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2018-03-18T20:17:20Z loginoob: bjorkintosh: yes
2018-03-18T20:17:23Z ecraven: you can definitely do that with slime
2018-03-18T20:17:39Z bjorkintosh: loginoob, are you already aware of this then? https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html
2018-03-18T20:18:28Z loginoob: bjorkintosh: aware but never read it because its been only a week since i started learning lisp
2018-03-18T20:18:47Z bjorkintosh: well then.
2018-03-18T20:18:52Z bjorkintosh: see if it answers your question.
2018-03-18T20:18:57Z loginoob: ok :)
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2018-03-18T20:19:12Z ecraven: loginoob: M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup may be relevant
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2018-03-18T20:20:36Z loginoob: ohh cool ecraven thank you
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2018-03-18T20:21:29Z bjorkintosh: loginoob, it was on that page I linked, btw.
2018-03-18T20:21:40Z bjorkintosh: alternatively, you can map a key to it, to make it even easier.
2018-03-18T20:21:50Z bjorkintosh: like f1 or f6 or something like that.
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2018-03-18T20:22:14Z loginoob: bjorkintosh: yes i saw that
2018-03-18T20:22:46Z loginoob: also tried M-x slime-describe-symbol
2018-03-18T20:23:09Z loginoob: :) thank you for the help. I'll learn them and try them
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2018-03-18T21:41:58Z stylewarning: hello friends
2018-03-18T21:42:56Z makomo: hello
2018-03-18T21:43:06Z stylewarning: how is lisp hacking
2018-03-18T21:44:44Z Shinmera: good
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2018-03-18T21:44:49Z Shinmera: but also bad
2018-03-18T21:45:50Z stylewarning: why
2018-03-18T21:45:53Z zch: Why would you use a top-level LET for function definitions? For example, here is some code (not mine) that has function definitions inside a let and has some local variables as well: https://0x0.st/sadA.txt - I'm just curious as to why not have top-level function definitions and either a LET inside those definitions for variables you're working with or introducing global variables.
2018-03-18T21:46:02Z stylewarning: Shinmera: does some CFFI code have you feeling sad
2018-03-18T21:46:24Z jackdaniel: zch: because there are other functions and you don't want to pollute global environment
2018-03-18T21:46:33Z jackdaniel: if you don't like extra nesting, you may use &aux
2018-03-18T21:46:40Z jackdaniel: which basically works like top-level let
2018-03-18T21:46:51Z stylewarning: aux is different, no?
2018-03-18T21:46:59Z stylewarning: the function closes over the value which is kept across invocations
2018-03-18T21:47:35Z _death: zch: there may be small perf gains, but personally I don't like that style and just use a global
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2018-03-18T21:48:26Z zch: I found it interesting, since I've never seen anyone code like that before (im a nooby programmer)
2018-03-18T21:48:29Z jackdaniel: stylewarning: regarding lisp hacking, I've created a debugging tool for clim pane hierarchies, check it out: http://hellsgate.pl/files/43a9c4f5
2018-03-18T21:48:55Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: consider it as spooky as you please, but i saw that this morning :)
2018-03-18T21:48:55Z zch: Thanks for the explanation, jackdaniel.
2018-03-18T21:48:57Z jackdaniel: I can manipulate sizes and positions of each pane in the gadget on the left (window on the right is an actual application-frame)
2018-03-18T21:49:04Z _death: also, in this case where it's only used in this one function, you could use a simple LET inside the function with LOAD-TIME-VALUE
2018-03-18T21:49:07Z jackdaniel: well, you didn't see this version
2018-03-18T21:49:17Z stylewarning: ah :)
2018-03-18T21:49:19Z jackdaniel: but sure, the idea is the same
2018-03-18T21:49:25Z jackdaniel: I've just added drag-and-drop
2018-03-18T21:49:29Z jackdaniel: plus some other conveniances
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2018-03-18T21:50:00Z Shinmera: stylewarning: Things aren't progressing as fast as I'd like and I haven't released a library in month
2018-03-18T21:50:51Z Shinmera: s
2018-03-18T21:51:17Z jackdaniel: stylewarning: regarding aux - it works like a top-level let as far as I know
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2018-03-18T21:51:27Z stylewarning: I've been super excited about jackdaniel's completion of Thrift for CL. I think it opens up so many possibilities for using Lisp programs as microservices.
2018-03-18T21:51:36Z jackdaniel: I've just tested it in the repl with: `(defun xxx (a &aux (b 42)) (print b) (incf b) (if (> a 4) (xxx (1- a) )))'
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2018-03-18T21:52:59Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: CLHS says otherwise: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm
2018-03-18T21:53:06Z jackdaniel: most of the implementation was done by Mr James Anderson, we just cleaned it up and pursued merge mainstream
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2018-03-18T21:53:26Z stylewarning: (lambda (&aux (x a)) ...) ==> (lambda () (let* ((x a)) ...))
2018-03-18T21:53:59Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you meant
2018-03-18T21:54:06Z jackdaniel: I misunderstood
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2018-03-18T21:55:56Z jackdaniel: but it still works as top-level let*
2018-03-18T21:56:25Z jackdaniel: either way, it's late here, I'll re-read tomorrow (I'm too tired to process), goodnight \o
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2018-03-18T21:58:01Z _death: jackdaniel: your function should only print 42s
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2018-03-18T21:58:19Z jackdaniel: yes, that was my point
2018-03-18T21:58:38Z _death: cool... good night
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2018-03-18T22:08:49Z khrb_t: uname -a
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2018-03-18T22:29:09Z jcowan: I think what I have sorta figured out is that a compiler macro should be associated with a function, not with the function's name
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2018-03-18T22:35:23Z _death: I suppose in a Scheme attitude it makes sense.. but in practice what will it give you that the current approach, with a compiler-macrolet operator, is lacking? assuming (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) is quite rare
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2018-03-18T22:44:06Z jcowan: yes, probably nothing much, since compiler macros are only applied during direct calls
2018-03-18T22:45:40Z jcowan: however, compiler-macrolet is not standard
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2018-03-18T22:50:04Z Bike: do any implementations have a compiler macrolet?
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2018-03-18T22:54:20Z Bike: also, if you didn't get an answer on why compiler macxros aren't great, it's just because most optimizations require more information than just surface syntax.
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2018-03-18T22:54:48Z Shinmera: Type inference most notably.
2018-03-18T22:55:53Z _death: I don't know of any implementation with compiler-macrolet.. wishful thinking
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2018-03-18T23:06:49Z jcowan: ah, that's a relief
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2018-03-18T23:10:24Z pillton: Why would you need compiler-macrolet?
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2018-03-18T23:15:09Z Bike: compiler macro for a local function, or an optimization that only makes sense locally
2018-03-18T23:15:22Z pillton: Couldn't that just be done with macrolet?
2018-03-18T23:15:46Z Bike: but then you coouldn't call it
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2018-03-18T23:22:08Z pillton: I'm struggling with why you would want a local compiler macro for a local function which is also invoked as a function object.
2018-03-18T23:25:06Z Bike: it's exotic, certainly
2018-03-18T23:25:22Z Bike: maybe you have a with- macro that makes some local function available, and sometimes it can be compiled easier
2018-03-18T23:25:25Z Bike: like call-next-method
2018-03-18T23:25:55Z pillton: But who does (mapcar #'call-next-method ..)?
2018-03-18T23:26:16Z Bike: dunno. maybe someone.
2018-03-18T23:26:21Z Bike: apply call-next-method does happen t hough.
2018-03-18T23:27:47Z pillton: Oh right. Compiler macros are only invoked in (funcall ...).
2018-03-18T23:28:37Z pillton gets a broom for the cobwebs. 
2018-03-18T23:29:52Z Bike: (apply #'call-next-method args...) could be inlined as (funcall next-method-function (list* args...) more-methods), incidentally
2018-03-18T23:29:55Z Bike: i doubt anyone bothers tho
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2018-03-18T23:49:46Z jcowan: Bike: when you say "most optimizations", you are talking about bog-standard compiler optimizations, not things like optimizing (+) to 0, right?
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2018-03-18T23:50:16Z Bike: i mean most optimizations
2018-03-18T23:50:42Z Bike: for +, for example, you want to reduce that to zero, and reduce (+ a) to a, and probably (+ a b c) to (+/2 a (+/2 b c)) or such
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2018-03-18T23:50:59Z Bike: but you also want to constant fold and maybe group numbers of the same kind together, and you can't do that syntactically
2018-03-18T23:51:31Z jcowan: constant folding certainly looks feasible
2018-03-18T23:51:48Z Bike: (let ((a 19)) (+ 1 a))
2018-03-18T23:52:23Z Bike: at the time of the compiler macro expansion, you lack information that a is constant
2018-03-18T23:52:30Z jcowan: well, okay, you can't do value propagation followed by constant folding, but the problem is with the value propagation
2018-03-18T23:52:49Z Bike: that's a pretty important problem.
2018-03-18T23:52:56Z jcowan: I don't disagree
2018-03-18T23:52:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: should quicklisp rebind *print-case* inside of quickload?  It's probably not ideal to mess with people's settings like that, but a bunch of libraries seem to assume that *print-case* is :upcase in their macros, which often leads to mysterious breakages.
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2018-03-18T23:53:29Z Bike: wait, you mean quicklisp does rebind it now?
2018-03-18T23:53:34Z jcowan: one example I've seen is optimizing exponentially growing functions when their arguments are fixnums
2018-03-18T23:53:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, I should say that it doesn't
2018-03-18T23:53:53Z Bike: in that case i'd say what you're describing is not quicklisp's problem
2018-03-18T23:54:22Z jcowan: fiddlerwoaroof: What actually depends in a macro on the setting of *print-case*?
2018-03-18T23:55:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Some libraries do things like deriving function names from a symbol
2018-03-18T23:55:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. they take 'FOO and derive #'MAKE-FOO
2018-03-18T23:56:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: This frequently is done incorrectly because the library author only ever tests with *print-case* :upcase
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2018-03-18T23:56:44Z Bike: jcowan: not sure what you mean
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2018-03-18T23:56:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: While, in an ideal world this wouldn't be a problem, I'd generally prefer to have quicklisp temporarily normalize the value of *print-case* rather than having the library break mysteriously later on.
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2018-03-18T23:57:09Z Bike: but of course compiler macros aren't useless, it's just that they're not capable of describing all or probably even most function-specific optimizations
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2018-03-18T23:57:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I only ever notice this because I set *print-case* to :capitalize in .sbclrc
2018-03-18T23:57:52Z Bike: i really don't think this is quicklisp's problem. you can rebind it yourself, or you can file bugs with the libraries
2018-03-18T23:58:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, it's not quicklisp's problem, strictly speaking, but it might be a useful feature
2018-03-18T23:58:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, whatever
2018-03-18T23:58:49Z Bike: asdf does have some tuff for binding around an action
2018-03-19T00:00:18Z jcowan: Bike: one of the things I ask people when I interview them is how to compute fibonacci(n) in Blub in O(1) time
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2018-03-19T00:01:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: First you write a Scheme runtime with TCO, then you implement it the obvious way :)
2018-03-19T00:01:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, the obvious tail-calling way
2018-03-19T00:01:23Z jcowan: the answer is that fib(42) or so is the largest representable Fibonacci number in typical Blubs (not Python, though)
2018-03-19T00:01:40Z jcowan: so the best implementation is to have a small array literal
2018-03-19T00:01:40Z Bike: good, i can't remember phi off the top of my head
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2018-03-19T00:03:46Z Bike: not really following what this has to do with compiler macros though
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2018-03-19T00:08:55Z jcowan: supposing you needed a fibonacci function in your program, you could supply a compiler macro that would avoid calling it all for less than bignum results
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2018-03-19T00:09:33Z Bike: and how do you know how big the result is going to be?
2018-03-19T00:09:53Z Bike: that is to say, how do you know how big the input is
2018-03-19T00:11:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, just realized I had mentally substituted O(n) for O(1) ...
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2018-03-19T00:26:06Z jcowan: Bike: I mean when the argument is a constant
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2018-03-19T00:29:03Z Bike: in that case why not just always fold?
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2018-03-19T00:35:52Z jcowan: the idea is not to have to fold, but have the answer already
2018-03-19T00:36:43Z Bike: if you have (fib 9) in the code you can just replace it with 34 at compile time
2018-03-19T00:36:50Z Bike: same thing with (fib 261)
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2018-03-19T04:42:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-19T05:38:17Z burzos: Is there a variable I can toggle to force `format` to always show the dot in proper lists?
2018-03-19T05:40:14Z beach: I don't think so.  FORMAT probably just calls the appropriate PRINT function, so ultimately PRINT-OBJECT.  But you are not allowed to modify the standard behavior of PRINT-OBJECT.  You can try doing it anyway and see.  Why do you need this?
2018-03-19T05:41:39Z burzos: I have assoc lists and I'm `format`ing them in a user console, but it's confusing when some of the entries are dotted and some aren't (because the value can be a list or an atom).
2018-03-19T05:44:31Z loke: burzos: That's just a display issue
2018-03-19T05:44:31Z beach: You can always print it "manually".  I mean, the REPL is not meant to be used for end-user stuff.
2018-03-19T05:44:50Z loke: burzos: It's because '(1 . (2 3 4)) has the same internal represetnation as '(1 2 3 4)
2018-03-19T05:45:22Z beach: loke: I suspect burzos knows that.
2018-03-19T05:46:10Z loke: I wasn't sure, as he would then know that he'd be getting '(1 . (2 . (3 . (4 . nil))))
2018-03-19T05:46:26Z burzos: Yeah.  The frontend def needs a lot of work, this is just for debugging in the interim.
2018-03-19T05:46:50Z burzos: Yeah what you're describing is exactly what I'm getting loke.
2018-03-19T05:47:16Z loke: He only wants to display the first level using ditted notation, and doing that is trivial with format (FORMAT T "(~s . (~{~s~^ ~}))")
2018-03-19T05:47:34Z loke: (although that won't handle the case where the argument has a dotted list)
2018-03-19T05:47:35Z burzos: Ah cool.
2018-03-19T05:48:13Z loke: I'd actually recommend something like (format t "~s → ~s" (car X) (cdr X))
2018-03-19T05:48:36Z burzos: Yeah that's sensible/obvious, thanks.
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2018-03-19T05:57:27Z onion: https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl
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2018-03-19T06:01:05Z beach: onion: What is that link about?
2018-03-19T06:01:15Z beach: onion: And why are you showing it?
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2018-03-19T06:20:35Z onion: javascript common lisp implementation, minus CLOS
2018-03-19T06:21:08Z beach: And why are you showing it?
2018-03-19T06:21:27Z beach: Showing links without explaining why is typical troll behavior.
2018-03-19T06:21:43Z beach: An in fact, freenode will kick you if you do it often enough.
2018-03-19T06:22:44Z beach: More generally, it is impolite, because you kind of encourage dozens of people to click on links that might be of no interest to them.  So you are wasting people's time.
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2018-03-19T06:34:04Z onion: what about notes and comments about someone's behavior, i can see this being more productive if it was a personal concern, kept privately. but i notice some people are looking at CL implementations on the web so i thought i would share that right where those people have been asking. maybe my timing is off
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2018-03-19T08:33:11Z johnnymacs: I have done an apt-get install ecl and when I check the filesize of /usr/bin/ecl it appears to only be 6 kilobytes
2018-03-19T08:33:28Z johnnymacs: Somehow that does not seem posible to me. Can embedded common lisp really be that small?
2018-03-19T08:33:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's about how big my ecl is
2018-03-19T08:33:57Z beach: johnnymacs: Is there a shared library as well?
2018-03-19T08:34:07Z johnnymacs: not sure
2018-03-19T08:34:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: libecl.so is about 3M
2018-03-19T08:35:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: and ldd `which ecl` says that ecl depends on the shared library
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2018-03-19T08:36:19Z johnnymacs: is ecl written in common lisp or c?
2018-03-19T08:36:31Z beach: Some of each.
2018-03-19T08:37:38Z beach: Usually, systems like that define a minimal subset of Common Lisp written in some other language, then the remaining Common Lisp functionality is written in that minimal subset.
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2018-03-19T08:39:51Z johnnymacs: sorry emacs was stuck in read only mode
2018-03-19T08:40:33Z johnnymacs: Is there a ftp where I can find some precompiled binaries for different architectures for ecl?
2018-03-19T08:41:20Z beach: johnnymacs: jackdaniel would know.
2018-03-19T08:42:12Z johnnymacs: on the busybox website they have a list of all the main archs, a few arms, windows, linux x86 linux x64
2018-03-19T08:42:50Z jackdaniel: johnnymacs: no, ECL doesn't provide precompiled binaries
2018-03-19T08:43:13Z jackdaniel: we don't have resources to maintain and troubleshot that
2018-03-19T08:44:14Z johnnymacs: well how does one say get it on an mcu
2018-03-19T08:44:30Z jackdaniel: so you either have to rely on your distribution packager (i.e Linux package managers, Windows has freebox, there is package on Google Play maintained by Polos), or you build it yourself
2018-03-19T08:44:39Z jackdaniel: what is mcu?
2018-03-19T08:44:44Z johnnymacs: microcontroller
2018-03-19T08:45:05Z johnnymacs: I guess buxybox does come with dpkg or rpm so it should be able to install the debian or fedora packages
2018-03-19T08:46:05Z johnnymacs: alright my questions are answered thank you
2018-03-19T08:47:46Z jackdaniel: one more thing: given you use busybox I assume you won't have C compiler on the machine
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2018-03-19T08:48:07Z jackdaniel: in that case you may want to compile ECL with bytecodes compiler only
2018-03-19T08:48:46Z jackdaniel: (one example of maintaining prebuilt binaries: say we had one you like, you download it and it doesn't work, because it was built with assumption C compiler is on the host)
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2018-03-19T09:00:04Z stacksmith:  johnnymacs: Raspberry Pi works really well with CCL and reasonably well with SBCL, and you can get a decent linux going.  I used it as my main system for a few months.  US$35
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2018-03-19T09:00:48Z Shinmera: SBCL unfortunately does not have threads on 32 bit ARM, and I think there's still no distro that really offers ARM64 for the Pi 3.
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2018-03-19T09:01:11Z Shinmera: I think OpenSuse has a release, but I haven't gotten around to trying it myself.
2018-03-19T09:01:21Z Shinmera: Would like to build Portacle for ARM64 at some point though.
2018-03-19T09:01:38Z stacksmith: I had a 64-bit linux working about a year go, but it was a little flaky...
2018-03-19T09:01:42Z jackdaniel: archlinux arm has arm64 userspace for rpi (no gpu support though)
2018-03-19T09:02:07Z stacksmith: The GPU is a nice thing...
2018-03-19T09:02:14Z jackdaniel: at least that was the state from ~1y ago
2018-03-19T09:02:24Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: complaints to broadcom and their magical binary blobs
2018-03-19T09:02:31Z stacksmith: Yup.
2018-03-19T09:02:32Z flip214: I used SLES for arm64 on the rpi3, with a debian chroot for all the nifty stuff.
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2018-03-19T09:03:17Z stacksmith: Originally I wanted to use it as a secure computer of sorts, but it uses the GPU to boot with god knows what code...
2018-03-19T09:03:22Z flip214: debian removed all the "incompatible" warnings for rpi3 in the last few months, so I'm about to try booting the 4.15.0-1-arm64 directly.
2018-03-19T09:03:36Z stacksmith: Should work.
2018-03-19T09:04:26Z flip214: didn't phoe have a branch of SBCL for the RPI 32bit with thread support?
2018-03-19T09:05:19Z stacksmith: I wound up switching to a bigger box because my monitor is too big for the Pi, but otherwise I hardly ever noticed any issues with speed or memory...
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2018-03-19T09:06:21Z stacksmith: Actually I stepped on it once and destroyed it.  But it took about 30 seconds to swap SD cards and cables with another RPI.
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2018-03-19T09:32:41Z beach: loke: The reason that the visible area in the buffer of Second Climacs is not adjusted when the cursor goes outside it is that there are two cases.
2018-03-19T09:32:46Z beach: One is when the cursor is moved as the result of the execution of a command, in which case, the visible area should follow the cursor.
2018-03-19T09:32:47Z beach: The other is when the user scrolls so that the cursor is outside the visible area, in which case, the cursor should be moved instead.  I need to think about how to distinguish those two cases.
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2018-03-19T09:34:04Z beach: I guess maybe I can try to detect when this situation happened as a result of executing a command.
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2018-03-19T09:35:09Z loke: beach: But is it really?
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2018-03-19T09:35:22Z beach: Is it really what?
2018-03-19T09:35:35Z loke: beach: I mean, should it be allowed to ever have the cursor outside the visible area?
2018-03-19T09:35:41Z beach: No.
2018-03-19T09:35:51Z beach: The question is what to move and when.
2018-03-19T09:35:53Z loke: In Emacs, for example, you can't. Most other editors does allow it.
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2018-03-19T09:35:58Z beach: You are right.
2018-03-19T09:36:33Z beach: But sometimes the cursor must be moved to be inside the area, and sometimes the area must be moved so that the cursor is inside it.
2018-03-19T09:36:39Z loke: So, if you decide to not allow it, then the situation is quite simple, IMHO. When cursor moves: Adjust scroll location. And when scroll location changes, adjust cutsor.
2018-03-19T09:36:44Z beach: And I need to figure out when to do one and when to do the other.
2018-03-19T09:37:01Z beach: Ah, but it's not that simple.
2018-03-19T09:37:09Z loke: What did I miss? :-)
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2018-03-19T09:38:12Z beach: Come to think about it, maybe you are right.  I was afraid that the first case would then trigger the second case.
2018-03-19T09:38:28Z beach: But that's OK, because the cursor will then already be in the visible area.
2018-03-19T09:39:04Z loke: beach: Well, it could. I seem to recall Emacs having that problem. But... It was caused by a callback function executing after a scroll. That callback function moved the cursor, triggering a loop.
2018-03-19T09:39:23Z loke: As long as the case of callbacks are handles, the problem can be dealt with.
2018-03-19T09:39:28Z beach: Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I need to be careful about.
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2018-03-19T09:39:57Z loke: I believe they solve it by not calling the callbacks for scrolling in those cases.
2018-03-19T09:40:05Z beach: That sounds messy.
2018-03-19T09:40:48Z beach: I think I'll do the following: After the execution of any command, check whether the cursor is outside the visible area, and if so, adjust the viewport.
2018-03-19T09:40:55Z loke: Yes, and I may misremember. But it was something to that effect.
2018-03-19T09:41:26Z beach: Then, when replaying the contents of the visible area, first check whether the cursor is outside it, and if so, move the cursor first.
2018-03-19T09:41:28Z loke: But, the fact that the discussion was quite recent, and they survived for a couple of decades before anyone stumbled on it suggests that the issue is less common than one might think.s
2018-03-19T09:41:44Z loke: beach: Right.
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2018-03-19T09:42:25Z beach: If the cursor moved as a result of a command, it will then be in the visible area, so no action will be taken in the second case.
2018-03-19T09:42:43Z beach: If not, then the area moved as a result of scrolling, so the cursor will be moved first.
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2018-03-19T09:43:57Z beach: OK, I'll try that.  Thanks for the rubber ducking.
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2018-03-19T09:44:38Z loke: :-)
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2018-03-19T13:37:48Z puchacz: hi, how to make a stream from an array of octets pls?
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2018-03-19T13:43:26Z cess11_: puchacz: Perhaps https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41378669/how-to-get-a-stream-from-a-bit-vector-in-common-lisp could be of help.
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2018-03-19T13:44:18Z puchacz: cess11_: thanks
2018-03-19T13:45:17Z puchacz: but hmmm, probably not what I need
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2018-03-19T13:46:24Z lieven: it's a pity the standard only has with-input-from-string and make-string-input-stream and not the corresponding ones for octets
2018-03-19T13:46:38Z dlowe: puchacz: there's a nice library called flexistreams
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2018-03-19T13:48:20Z puchacz: or maybe...? trying the stackoverflow example
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2018-03-19T13:48:40Z puchacz: btw, how would it be with flexistreams?
2018-03-19T13:50:07Z dlowe: (make-flexi-stream (make-in-memory-input-stream octets))
2018-03-19T13:50:35Z puchacz: dlowe: thanks
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2018-03-19T13:55:28Z puchacz: dlowe, it worked :)
2018-03-19T13:55:42Z dlowe: glad to hear it!
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2018-03-19T14:12:35Z jcowan: If I want to make a package which does not :use any other package, is :use () always going to work?
2018-03-19T14:13:52Z dlowe: jcowan: you can just omit the :use clause
2018-03-19T14:14:27Z dlowe: jcowan: coi
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2018-03-19T14:14:45Z jcowan: coi
2018-03-19T14:14:56Z jcowan: The documentation says that if you omit :use, you get an implementation-defined set
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2018-03-19T14:15:31Z jcowan: This is what I do not want, I do not want even to inherit from common-lisp.
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2018-03-19T14:16:15Z dlowe: jcowan: but yes, (:use) should work fine.
2018-03-19T14:16:43Z dlowe: (:use ()) will attempt to use the NIL package
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2018-03-19T14:20:31Z jackdaniel: (:use)  ;actually
2018-03-19T14:20:40Z jackdaniel: (defpackage foo (:use))
2018-03-19T14:20:51Z jackdaniel: or to be more prcise, (cl:defpackage …)
2018-03-19T14:21:46Z pierpa: I suspect one of you is talking about defpackage and the other about make-package
2018-03-19T14:21:47Z jcowan: obviously I want to import certain common-lisp symbols, but very selectively
2018-03-19T14:22:05Z dlowe: you could just append cl: to everything
2018-03-19T14:23:16Z Zhivago: I think I'd prefer to see cl::foo instead of guessing, although perhaps things like + might be worth directly importing.
2018-03-19T14:23:18Z jackdaniel: pierpa: hah, didn't think about that, you are probably right
2018-03-19T14:23:35Z dlowe: so what you want is something like (defpackage foo (:use) (:import cl defun cond if lambda))?
2018-03-19T14:24:10Z dlowe: it's pretty unusual to not want to use the CL package - what's your usecase?
2018-03-19T14:24:20Z jackdaniel: (defpackage foo (:use) (:import-from :cl :list)) ; ←
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2018-03-19T14:24:51Z jackdaniel: hm, and hashes
2018-03-19T14:24:55Z jackdaniel: #:cl #:list
2018-03-19T14:26:07Z Zhivago: Probably the criterion should be to import it when you use it enough to get tired of looking at the cl:: on it.
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2018-03-19T14:30:31Z jcowan: well, I want to export certain cl symbols as well, and I was under the impression that you cannot export anything that you have not defined or imported; is that wrong?
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2018-03-19T14:32:15Z jcowan: dlowe: I am trying to provide an implementation of ISLisp that will work on any CL, thus saving me a lot of work
2018-03-19T14:32:35Z Zhivago: You export names, not things.
2018-03-19T14:33:17Z dlowe: jcowan: right, you can export whatever symbols you want, regardless of whether or not they are bound to something.
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2018-03-19T14:33:31Z jcowan: Yeah, I'm not explaining this well.
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2018-03-19T14:34:18Z jcowan: The point is that if you :use the islisp package, you will get some names that ultimately come from the common-lisp package and others that are defined in the islisp package *under names that exist in the common-lisp package*.
2018-03-19T14:34:44Z ecraven: jcowan: what are the USPs of ISLISP compared to other lisps?
2018-03-19T14:35:02Z jcowan: small and static
2018-03-19T14:35:13Z jcowan: (still dynamically typed, though)
2018-03-19T14:35:58Z jcowan: *mostly* names that are the same in ISLisp and CL have the same semantics, but not always
2018-03-19T14:36:12Z dlowe: jcowan: I think your understanding is correct, except the symbol just has to exist in the package, it doesn't have to be used for anything.
2018-03-19T14:36:25Z Zhivago: Well, just export the names that name things with the semantics that you want to export.
2018-03-19T14:36:27Z jackdaniel: jcowan: I would actually split it in two package
2018-03-19T14:36:42Z jackdaniel: (defpackage islisp-impl …) and (defpackage islisp …)
2018-03-19T14:36:59Z jackdaniel: the second imports from cl and islisp-impl and exports what it wants
2018-03-19T14:37:13Z jcowan: Zhivago: if I did that, you'd have to import the common-lisp package into ISLisp code, which would pollute the namespace
2018-03-19T14:37:16Z jcowan: of your program
2018-03-19T14:37:18Z jackdaniel: then you don't have to import something to islisp-impl
2018-03-19T14:37:41Z lieven: jcowan: erann gat's paper on conduit-packages may be of use to you
2018-03-19T14:37:45Z dlowe: wow, islisp solves character encoding difficulties by pretending that there are only 95 characters.
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2018-03-19T14:38:02Z shka: that's bad
2018-03-19T14:38:51Z jcowan: dlowe: where do you see this?
2018-03-19T14:39:10Z dlowe: https://nenbutsu.github.io/ISLispHyperDraft/islisp-v23.html#character_class
2018-03-19T14:39:12Z jcowan: The ISLISP character set has at least ninety-five printing characters plus a newline character.
2018-03-19T14:39:24Z dlowe: 94 printing characters.
2018-03-19T14:39:44Z Zhivago: jcowan: You never need to import the common-lisp package -- you can always just import particular symbols from common-lisp.
2018-03-19T14:40:03Z jcowan: Zhivago: Which is what I intend to do
2018-03-19T14:40:23Z jcowan: but I have to import them (with their definitions) if I plan to export them, because otherwise they are not in the package.
2018-03-19T14:40:28Z dlowe: ok, 96 characters. I can't count or read clearly
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2018-03-19T14:40:40Z Zhivago: You don't import the things, just the names.
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2018-03-19T14:41:11Z Zhivago: A package is just thing for turning "FOO" into "BAR::FOO" automatically, pretty much.
2018-03-19T14:41:26Z shka: to be fair, symbol in lisp is first class object..
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2018-03-19T14:41:37Z shka: so it kinda counts as a thing :-)
2018-03-19T14:41:41Z Zhivago: It isn't a module, it doesn't contain stuff -- it just knows how to turn unqualified symbols into qualified symbols.
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2018-03-19T14:42:37Z jcowan: I understand these points.
2018-03-19T14:42:43Z Zhivago: So there's no problem with a package turning "FOO" into "CL::FOO" and "BAR" into "ZOO::BAR".
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2018-03-19T14:42:59Z jcowan: What I'm saying is that if a symbol is not locally used nor imported, it cannot be exported
2018-03-19T14:43:36Z shka: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2018-03-19T14:43:45Z jcowan: if I refer to IF as CL:IF, then exporting IF will export a symbol whose print name is "IF" but which cannot be used as IF by any package that uses me.
2018-03-19T14:43:47Z Zhivago: Which means that you can import the particular symbols you want to export.
2018-03-19T14:43:50Z TMA: clhs export
2018-03-19T14:43:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2018-03-19T14:43:57Z jcowan: Not merely can but must.
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2018-03-19T14:45:02Z Zhivago: Use a second package to set up the user environment rather than developer environment.
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2018-03-19T14:45:36Z Zhivago: Then it can import and export CL::IF and FOO:BAR and whatever is convenient for a user.
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2018-03-19T14:47:01Z jcowan: (cl:if x this that) is not valid ISLisp for expressing a conditional: you have to write (if this that)
2018-03-19T14:47:10Z jcowan: s/if this that/if x this that
2018-03-19T14:47:44Z Zhivago: Why is that a problem?
2018-03-19T14:47:52Z Shinmera: What does the printed representation have to do with anything
2018-03-19T14:49:21Z dlowe: if that was the case you couldn't be able to use (if this that) from the CL-USER package
2018-03-19T14:49:38Z jcowan: CL-USER imports CL
2018-03-19T14:49:41Z jcowan: sorry, uses CL
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2018-03-19T14:51:27Z dlowe: so any islisp project is going to have to use your islisp package, I think, no?
2018-03-19T14:51:34Z dlowe: or are you hoping to get around that
2018-03-19T14:53:14Z shka: hello
2018-03-19T14:53:18Z dlowe: you'll at least want some similar islisp-user package
2018-03-19T14:53:23Z dlowe: o hai
2018-03-19T14:53:39Z shka: I have HyperLogLog algorithm for estimating (large) set cardinality
2018-03-19T14:53:52Z jcowan: It will have to begin (use-package :islisp) (in-package :islisp), I don't see any way to avoid that.
2018-03-19T14:54:17Z jcowan: hmm, maybe in-package is not necessary
2018-03-19T14:54:36Z shka: it produces object that can be quered for cardinality and combined with other object of the same type to calculate cardinality of union
2018-03-19T14:55:01Z shka: would it be reasonable to call combination function "union", or is it to far stretched?
2018-03-19T14:55:25Z Zhivago: shka: In some sensible package, why not?
2018-03-19T14:55:53Z shka: don't know, I suck at naming things
2018-03-19T14:56:06Z shka: so i figured i wll ask for opinion
2018-03-19T14:56:32Z Zhivago: If the name is really shka-cardinality-thingy::union and it is documented, I don't see why not.
2018-03-19T14:57:18Z shka: ok
2018-03-19T14:57:26Z shka: sounds reasonable
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2018-03-19T15:21:43Z bjorkintosh: has anyone here read Gary Knott's "Interpreting Lisp" ?
2018-03-19T15:22:29Z beach: Sounds like something to order.
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2018-03-19T15:23:10Z shka: Knott is some well known author?
2018-03-19T15:23:19Z shka: or otherwise lisper?
2018-03-19T15:23:29Z bjorkintosh: hahah. the word 'well known' and lisp rarely go together.
2018-03-19T15:23:38Z bjorkintosh: unless you're talking about some other language.
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2018-03-19T15:23:57Z bjorkintosh: i'd never heard it mentioned before, that's why I'm asking.
2018-03-19T15:24:03Z shka: bjorkintosh: i dare to say that everybody in lisp community know who xach is
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2018-03-19T15:24:13Z Shinmera: bjorkintosh: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/6qc61v/second_edition_published_interpreting_lisp/
2018-03-19T15:24:18Z bjorkintosh: shka, and outside of lisp? :-D ?
2018-03-19T15:24:30Z shka: who cares about outside? :P
2018-03-19T15:24:52Z bjorkintosh: hahaha. well taken.
2018-03-19T15:25:03Z Shinmera: Please avoid that book
2018-03-19T15:25:19Z jcowan: Lisp has no outside.  It is a windowless monad.
2018-03-19T15:25:44Z jcowan steals the opportunity to say "windowless monad" on both #lisp and #haskell within a few minutes
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2018-03-19T15:25:53Z bjorkintosh: hahaha
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2018-03-19T15:26:27Z bjorkintosh: Shinmera, thanks a lot. I think this is the relevant thing: This book is actually an introduction to a language called GOVOL that completely became dead - googling for it gives not even a description of the language, excluding quotes from this book itself.
2018-03-19T15:26:34Z bjorkintosh: I'll skip it.
2018-03-19T15:26:56Z shka: why this book got second edition?
2018-03-19T15:27:25Z bjorkintosh: shka, because the author probably thought 30 years is a long enough time for anyone to have forgotten about the first one?
2018-03-19T15:27:44Z shka: yes, but it is very outdated
2018-03-19T15:27:45Z jcowan: A book whose intro begins "LISP is commonly implemented with an interpreter program called the LISP interpreter" is surely not worth reading
2018-03-19T15:27:58Z jcowan: as for GOVOL, it stands for Gary's Own Version of Lisp
2018-03-19T15:28:03Z shka: nowdays people would go for lisp in small pices or something like that
2018-03-19T15:28:11Z bjorkintosh: jcowan, are you familiar with it?
2018-03-19T15:28:15Z TMA: bjorkintosh: I have, maybe. some eighteen years ago. if I recall correctly
2018-03-19T15:28:40Z Bike: Hullo, MOP question. at what point are slot specifications (like (bar :initarg :bar) and whatnot) turned into actual slot definitions? MOP seems to say ensure-class-using-class does it, but elsewhere has an example where MAKE-INSTANCE is called directly with slot specifications.
2018-03-19T15:28:41Z jcowan: bjorkintosh: No, but he says the name has the same origin as JOVIAL, which stands for "Jules's Own Version of the International Algorithmic Language" (i.e. Algol 58)
2018-03-19T15:28:49Z bjorkintosh: TMA, was it any good? anything to take from it?
2018-03-19T15:29:16Z dlowe: Bike: I believe MOP has a finalize-class function which is called before any instance is created.
2018-03-19T15:29:17Z jcowan: JOVIAL actually did catch on as a language for military applications: it has a lot of specialized real-time and low-level I/O stuff
2018-03-19T15:29:30Z Bike: dlowe: it does not. are you thinking of finalize-inheritance?
2018-03-19T15:29:34Z TMA: bjorkintosh: I think it is now obsolete.
2018-03-19T15:29:43Z dlowe: Bike: hm. no.  never mind then, I clearly don't remember
2018-03-19T15:29:45Z makomo: jcowan: i was just about to mention a related thing. google for "semantic designs" and JOVIAL
2018-03-19T15:30:22Z makomo: semantic designs is a company that specializes in code refactoring. one of the things they've done is rewritten a million or so lines of JOVIAL code for a military stealth bomber i think?
2018-03-19T15:30:24Z makomo: to C
2018-03-19T15:30:31Z jcowan: C or Ada?
2018-03-19T15:30:47Z makomo: pretty sure it was C
2018-03-19T15:30:52Z jcowan: huh
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2018-03-19T15:31:03Z makomo: it's an interesting read and very cool technology
2018-03-19T15:31:10Z Shinmera: Bike: Maybe you can BREAK on DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION-CLASS to see where it's called in existing implementations.
2018-03-19T15:31:22Z makomo: the engine itself is written in a "homebrew" version of lisp that was built to support parallelism
2018-03-19T15:31:31Z makomo: "parlanse" or something like that is the name
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2018-03-19T15:32:44Z bjorkintosh: well, algol should be properly considered a half sibling of Lisp since St McCarthy the first left his imprint on it!
2018-03-19T15:32:48Z makomo: it's not open source but it's interesting just to read about. also, the main guy behind the tool answers a lot of parsing technology-related questions on stack overflow
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2018-03-19T15:33:24Z makomo: quite fascinating stuff. they parse C++ completely from an auto-generated parser. no manual work at all.
2018-03-19T15:33:36Z makomo: and C++17 at that
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2018-03-19T15:33:41Z bjorkintosh: parlanse: a parallel language for symbolic expressions. interesting!
2018-03-19T15:33:56Z makomo: it's basically a team of 10 PhDs or something, crazy :D
2018-03-19T15:35:33Z bjorkintosh: http://www.semdesigns.com/Products/Parlanse/ParlanseParallelism.html  PARLANSE uses Lisp syntax, but is not Lisp.
2018-03-19T15:35:36Z bjorkintosh: Oh noes!
2018-03-19T15:35:47Z bjorkintosh: missed opportunity, or bullet dodged?
2018-03-19T15:35:56Z dlowe: that seems harder than just making lisp.
2018-03-19T15:35:57Z TMA: bjorkintosh: for example the interpreter presented there has no lexical binding and no closures; arguably it is simpler exactly because of that
2018-03-19T15:36:54Z Bike: Shinmera: well that's why i'm asking really - from looking at source, it looks like sbcl does it in ensure-class-using-class, while ecl leaves it for shared-initialize
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2018-03-19T15:38:38Z Bike: sbcl rejects the mop example i was referring to
2018-03-19T15:38:47Z Bike: i mean, just as well, doing it in ensure-class-using-class makes far more sense to me
2018-03-19T15:38:52Z makomo: bjorkintosh: oh, right, i forgot about that
2018-03-19T15:38:54Z Bike: that being http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-class-metaobjects.html
2018-03-19T15:38:59Z Bike: with some modifications so it actually runs
2018-03-19T15:39:01Z Shinmera: Examples aren't normative anyway
2018-03-19T15:39:28Z bjorkintosh: makomo, though, doesn't that mean that it's then parseable by lisp? :-D I wonder which other languages use the syntax but aren't lisp.
2018-03-19T15:39:48Z makomo: hah good point
2018-03-19T15:40:10Z Shinmera: bjorkintosh: All Lisp code that uses libraries that haven't been loaded.
2018-03-19T15:40:21Z bjorkintosh: hah!
2018-03-19T15:40:57Z ecraven: prescheme is a C-like language with Scheme syntax
2018-03-19T15:41:13Z ecraven: I don't think you could call it a lisp per se
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2018-03-19T15:43:10Z bjorkintosh: hmm. I think I know of two others.
2018-03-19T15:45:56Z bjorkintosh: the code from Equational Logic as a programming language looks (lisp 'like), programming languages, an interpreter approach,and bulldog, a compiler for vliw
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2018-03-19T15:46:43Z bjorkintosh: never mind, the 3rd one's elisp.
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2018-03-19T15:48:01Z jcowan: bjorkintosh: yes, Algol is part of the bridge between C and Lisp
2018-03-19T15:48:21Z jcowan: which is why the Scheme standards are still called "The Revised^n Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme"
2018-03-19T15:48:23Z bjorkintosh: eh? i thought c and algol were unrelated.
2018-03-19T15:48:32Z jcowan: C is like Algol is like Scheme is like CL
2018-03-19T15:48:40Z bjorkintosh: that part is because scheme uses the algol concept of blocks.
2018-03-19T15:48:50Z jcowan: and lexical scope, which spread into CL from Scheme
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2018-03-19T15:49:08Z bjorkintosh: cpl begat bcpl which begat b and thus c was born.
2018-03-19T15:49:26Z bjorkintosh: and what begat cpl? a paper!
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2018-03-19T15:50:08Z bjorkintosh: it seems algol simply dominates everything.
2018-03-19T15:50:33Z puchacz: hi, where can I find an example of bordeaux-threads used to wait till both threads finish?
2018-03-19T15:50:52Z puchacz: I want 2 jobs in parallel, and I am done when both are completed
2018-03-19T15:51:16Z Shinmera: (bt:join-thread a) (bt:join-thread b)
2018-03-19T15:51:50Z puchacz: Shinmera: if thread a is already dead, will join-thread just return?
2018-03-19T15:52:28Z Shinmera: I mean
2018-03-19T15:52:31Z Shinmera: just read the docs, man
2018-03-19T15:52:38Z puchacz: ok, tks :)
2018-03-19T15:53:25Z puchacz: "Wait until THREAD terminates. If THREAD has already terminated, return immediately."
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2018-03-19T15:59:29Z pierpa: Makes sense :)
2018-03-19T16:01:44Z jcowan: nothing else would
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2018-03-19T16:12:12Z Bike: no wait, sbcl does accept it
2018-03-19T16:12:16Z Bike: hrm, oh well then
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2018-03-19T16:56:16Z beach: Bike: SICL has it in an :AROUND method on SHARED-INITIALIZE specialized to STANDARD-CLASS .
2018-03-19T16:57:53Z Bike: yeah, i guess shared initialize is where to go.
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2018-03-19T16:58:34Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-class-metaobjects2.html
2018-03-19T16:58:34Z Bike: that's a little annoying. if it was in ensure-class-using-class, programmers could control how defclass is parsed pretty closely, e.g. how slot definition initargs should be interpreted
2018-03-19T16:58:56Z Bike: does that say something explicit?
2018-03-19T16:59:09Z beach: This page says that when MAKE-INSTANCE is called, the :DIRECT-SLOTS initarg is a list of canonicalized slot specifications.
2018-03-19T16:59:32Z beach: So at that point, they are not yet DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITIONs.
2018-03-19T17:00:01Z Bike: ah.
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2018-03-19T17:00:23Z beach: "After error checking, this value is converted to a list of direct slot definition metaobjects before it is associated with the class metaobject."
2018-03-19T17:01:19Z beach: "It is not specified which methods provide the initialization and reinitialization behavior described above."
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2018-03-19T17:02:34Z beach: But it would definitely not be conforming behavior to have ENSURE-CLASS do the conversion.
2018-03-19T17:06:26Z Bike: i'll go along with it, but i don't see the advantage.
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2018-03-19T17:13:40Z beach: Do you see the advantage of (CAR NIL) returning NIL?
2018-03-19T17:14:26Z Bike: well, yes, i get that much. but make-instance is hardly used in this way anything, i don't think it's much of a burden
2018-03-19T17:14:35Z Bike: anyway, where is this method? https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/d5e27ceabf93da65bf5e482612d0331650cbe2f1/Code/CLOS/class-initialization-support.lisp doesn't seem to be doing it
2018-03-19T17:14:40Z Bike: used in this way anyway*
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2018-03-19T17:16:20Z beach: Oh?
2018-03-19T17:16:38Z beach: CHECK-AND-INITIALIZE-DIRECT-SLOTS does it, no?
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2018-03-19T17:17:23Z Bike: sorry, i meant the superclasses.
2018-03-19T17:17:38Z Bike: ugh. hang on.
2018-03-19T17:17:49Z Bike: this page says the slots are canonicalized slot specs, but the superclasses are, at this point, classes.
2018-03-19T17:18:08Z beach: I thought we were talking about the slot specifiers.
2018-03-19T17:18:12Z beach: Maybe I was mistaken.
2018-03-19T17:18:53Z Bike: no, well, i'm doing both, but i only actually mentioned slots
2018-03-19T17:19:18Z Bike: so, the superclasses are classes, but the slots are not
2018-03-19T17:19:31Z Bike: are not instances.
2018-03-19T17:19:45Z beach: The :direct-superclasses argument is a list of class metaobjects.
2018-03-19T17:19:54Z beach: "The :direct-superclasses argument is a list of class metaobjects."
2018-03-19T17:19:56Z Bike: right. so ensure class using class is doing that part.
2018-03-19T17:19:59Z beach: From the same page as before.
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2018-03-19T17:20:17Z beach: That I can't say without reading further.
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2018-03-19T17:20:35Z Bike: it says as much in the ensure class using class page as well.
2018-03-19T17:20:48Z beach: It must be true then.
2018-03-19T17:22:45Z beach: I am curious.  The page that I showed you a link to, did you not find it easily before I showed it?  If so, perhaps there are some other links I should add to that site.
2018-03-19T17:23:11Z beach: I mean, I found it because I have read it a gazillion times.
2018-03-19T17:23:45Z Bike: no, i did find it.
2018-03-19T17:23:52Z beach: Oh.
2018-03-19T17:24:00Z beach: So was it a problem with terminology?
2018-03-19T17:24:25Z beach: It is not obvious what a canonicalized slot description is, compared to a direct-slot-definition instance.
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2018-03-19T17:24:50Z beach: Perhaps I should have a "terminology" page, and stick links to it at strategic places.
2018-03-19T17:25:00Z Bike: yeah, i just wasn't reading closely enough either.
2018-03-19T17:25:18Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2018-03-19T17:29:06Z Bike: does sicl not have a definition of make-instances-obsolete?
2018-03-19T17:29:23Z Bike: just wondering, because it took me some thought to figure out what it should do with fastgf
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2018-03-19T17:29:58Z beach: It might not have.
2018-03-19T17:30:09Z beach: What would it do?
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2018-03-19T17:33:21Z Bike: assign the class a new stamp and remove it from any call histories it's in, is what i came up with.
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2018-03-19T17:33:34Z beach: Fair enough.
2018-03-19T17:33:45Z Bike: the new stamp makes the instances obsolete, and then removing it from the histories forces them to update next time they're used in a call.
2018-03-19T17:34:03Z beach: Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
2018-03-19T17:34:53Z Bike: the trick is reinitialize-instance has to actually call it, so that user methods on it can be called, and stuff
2018-03-19T17:35:11Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-03-19T17:35:28Z beach: I keep thinking that it's too bad that all this work is Clasp specific.  I will need to do this all over again for SICL.
2018-03-19T17:35:56Z beach: But you (or drmeister) have explained why to me so many times.
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2018-03-19T17:37:21Z Bike: well the last substantial change i made here was adding applicable method caches, and i got that from you anyhow
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2018-03-19T17:38:28Z beach: I meant more that it is too bad that this code can not become an implementation-independent library.
2018-03-19T17:39:07Z beach: It is going to exist in slightly different forms in different implementations, with extra cost in maintenance.
2018-03-19T17:40:02Z beach: And I kind of understood the arguments as they were presented to me.  But I keep thinking that it is unfortunate nevertheless.
2018-03-19T17:40:36Z Bike: as you said at some point, it makes sense to have objects with classes in the startup image; that right there kind of implies that you can't have a library with its own definition of classes (so they have stamps, or whatever)
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2018-03-19T17:42:18Z beach: Oh I didn't necessarily mean "something that can be loaded into a running system" when I said "library".
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2018-03-19T17:42:43Z beach: I just meant "reusable implementation-independent code".
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2018-03-19T17:43:54Z beach: But you are right.  The way Clasp is bootstrapped often makes it necessary to introduce specific modifications to the code.
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2018-03-19T17:46:06Z beach: Plus, drmeister's way of understanding how things work is to implemented them his way, and then he is too busy to think of how to write the code in an implementation-independent way, simply because you have your hands full trying to get the system into a reasonable state in the first place.
2018-03-19T17:47:05Z beach: I should be satisfied that Cleavir is still code that is common both to Clasp and SICL.
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2018-03-19T17:49:38Z Bike: yeah, i'm glad we'll be able to lose our one patch soon.
2018-03-19T17:50:39Z Bike: lisp wasn't really designed with modularity in mind
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2018-03-19T17:51:07Z beach: True.  And making it so requires a lot of extra effort.
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2018-03-19T17:54:27Z Bike: i mean there's even stuff like, say, the printer. seems like it should be modular enough, but then there's stuff like print-unreadable-object being able to print a memory address
2018-03-19T17:55:34Z beach: Right.  There are lots of little things like that.
2018-03-19T17:56:00Z beach: I usually get around those things by calling a client-specializable generic function to handle the situation.
2018-03-19T17:56:27Z beach: But that requires a very twisted way of thinking.  I am just hoping it will pay off eventually.
2018-03-19T17:56:58Z beach: Certainly, existing implementations make absolutely no effort in that direction as far as I can tell.
2018-03-19T17:57:49Z Bike: not really, no
2018-03-19T17:58:34Z beach: On the other hand, once I manage to get something to work that way, I can often turn it into a paper.
2018-03-19T18:00:03Z beach: Anyway, my (admittedly small) family is saying dinner is ready.  The EU is not on daylight-savings time yet.
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2018-03-19T18:01:43Z Bike: see you.
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2018-03-19T18:26:01Z ebrasca: Hi
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2018-03-19T19:02:21Z Bike: does shared initialize have to go through slot-value and slot-value-using-class?
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2018-03-19T19:09:44Z beach: No, I don't think so.
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2018-03-19T19:12:00Z didi: Wow, I think I hit a bug on SBCL. The Backtrace says [error printing frame], the type error states "The value #<invalid object #<invalid object #x6C00000061> is not of type LIST" and there weird values for the local variables in the frame (as in #<unknown immediate object, lowtag=#b1, widetag=#x61 {6C00000061}>).
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2018-03-19T19:12:24Z Bike: either it's a bug or you optimized safety too little.
2018-03-19T19:12:45Z didi: Bike: I have (declaim (optimize (speed 0) debug safety)) inside my .sbclrc.
2018-03-19T19:12:52Z Bike: implementations generally look like they go through (setf slot-value-using-class)... i guess i can just skip it on standard classes like usuaul
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2018-03-19T19:13:34Z didi: Hum, maybe a I have some "optimize speed" somewhere. Thanks for the tip. I will dig in.
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2018-03-19T19:15:56Z Pierpa: didi: you must rather look for places where you lower safety.
2018-03-19T19:16:13Z Bike: i mean it could still be a bug. i'm just sayin.
2018-03-19T19:16:30Z didi: Pierpa: Thanks.
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2018-03-19T19:17:11Z Pierpa: If safety is always 3 then you found a bug in the implementation
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2018-03-19T19:19:07Z didi: Nope. I only explicitly use `optimize' in one function, and it is not being called from the moment I initiate SBCL to the moment I hit the error.
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2018-03-19T19:19:28Z didi: Oh well.
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2018-03-19T19:20:02Z didi: The error is reproducible, but not the weird values. The change from time to time.
2018-03-19T19:20:09Z didi: s/The/They
2018-03-19T19:20:23Z Bike: so what is it you are doing
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2018-03-19T19:20:55Z didi: Hum. It is a complex computation. I will try to update SBCL.
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2018-03-19T19:32:50Z noobly: how do i move a chess piece in emacs?
2018-03-19T19:33:00Z noobly: I couldn't find instructions anywehre
2018-03-19T19:36:15Z dlowe: you might ask in #emacs
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2018-03-19T19:47:48Z didi: Weird. I can't clone SBCL's git repository. Git says "fatal: Could not read from remote repository. Please make sure you have the correct access rights and the repository exists."
2018-03-19T19:48:00Z Bike: might be sourceforge being stupid.
2018-03-19T19:48:13Z didi: :-(
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2018-03-19T21:05:07Z didi: With SBCL's 1.4.5, I got a memory fault. Something is fishy here.
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2018-03-20T00:37:14Z didi: Is there a size limit for the length of a &rest parameter or the size of an apply argument?
2018-03-20T00:38:07Z Bike: clhs call-arguments-limit
2018-03-20T00:38:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
2018-03-20T00:38:50Z didi: Nah, wAAy higher.
2018-03-20T00:38:59Z Bike: what?
2018-03-20T00:39:14Z didi: The value of call-arguments-limit.
2018-03-20T00:39:48Z didi: This is such a frustrating bug. I updated SBCL but it still keep happening. I am trying to isolate it, but no luck yet.
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2018-03-20T00:40:32Z didi: It is as if X from (dolist (x list) ...) goes beyond the end of the list.
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2018-03-20T00:52:51Z didi: OK, I feel I am closing in. This either have to do with DEFMETHOD or the size of a &rest parameter. I changed the method to a DEFUN with a straight parameter and it computed without an error.
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2018-03-20T00:56:13Z didi: Aha! If I copy-seq the &rest parameter, no error occurs.
2018-03-20T00:56:30Z Bike: oh, maybe due to the dynamic extent of rest arguments then.
2018-03-20T00:56:49Z didi: Uuuh.
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2018-03-20T00:58:38Z didi: Bike: Shouldn't I expect the rest argument to live enough for other functions to use it?
2018-03-20T00:58:58Z Xach: You can use it but not change it
2018-03-20T00:59:05Z Bike: i think so, yeah, but there are- yeah that.
2018-03-20T00:59:12Z didi: Xach: Aaah. Interesting.
2018-03-20T00:59:29Z didi: This is getting better.
2018-03-20T01:00:06Z Xach: I am reminded of https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3067167916417343%40naggum.no.html
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2018-03-20T01:02:02Z didi: I don't directly change it. Could a method's &key or DOLIST change it? This is weird. /me continues to dig
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2018-03-20T01:04:59Z Xach: didi: can you share the code?
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2018-03-20T01:11:48Z didi: Xach: I am trying to isolate it. As soon as I do it, I will.
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2018-03-20T01:13:33Z didi: Although, maybe the size of the function and/or variables plays a role here, by Bike comment on dynamic extend.
2018-03-20T01:14:00Z Bike: well like naggum said rest lists arne't dynamic extent unless you declare them so
2018-03-20T01:14:13Z didi: Uuuh.
2018-03-20T01:14:44Z didi: So... no cake for passing a &rest list to other functions?
2018-03-20T01:15:07Z Bike: cake?
2018-03-20T01:15:37Z didi: Just trying to lighten up my day. I mean, I shouldn't pass &rest lists to other functions?
2018-03-20T01:15:44Z Bike: no, it's fine.
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2018-03-20T01:15:49Z didi: Bleh.
2018-03-20T01:15:51Z didi is lost
2018-03-20T01:16:02Z Bike: just don't destroy them. don't edit rest lists.
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2018-03-20T01:17:24Z Bike: since copying the list fixes your problem, i'm guessing you do so by accident.
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2018-03-20T01:20:53Z pierpa_: didi> can't you check a different implementation?  in this way a lot of hypotheses can be pruned
2018-03-20T01:21:05Z pierpa_: didi: ^
2018-03-20T01:22:16Z didi: pierpa_: Heh. I think I'm way deep into SBCL; I might call SBCL-only functions in some places. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2018-03-20T01:39:38Z stacksmith: Hello. Why is (and) => T ?   Superficially it seems that and returns nil or the last form...
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2018-03-20T01:42:15Z Bike: truth is the identify of conjunction.
2018-03-20T01:42:24Z Bike: same reason (+) is zero and (*) is one.
2018-03-20T01:43:04Z Bike: (+ 0 x) = x, (* 1 x) = x, (and t x) = x.
2018-03-20T01:44:04Z stacksmith: Aah.  kind of like an implied T, remove x and all that's left is a T...
2018-03-20T01:44:19Z pierpa_: among all the arguments of (AND) is there any one which is false?
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2018-03-20T01:45:20Z pierpa_: that's the definition of how AND works
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2018-03-20T01:46:04Z Zhivago: Yes, but Bike has the why of it.
2018-03-20T01:46:23Z stacksmith: pierpa_: are there any true arguments that are true in (and)?
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2018-03-20T01:46:38Z pierpa_: I was giving a more down to earth and intuitive explanation :)
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2018-03-20T01:46:59Z pierpa_: stacksmith: it's the false ones which rule
2018-03-20T01:47:05Z stacksmith: pierpa_: appreciate the attempt, but it seems arbitrary.
2018-03-20T01:47:42Z pierpa_: whether there are any true arguments doesn't matter to the result of AND
2018-03-20T01:47:55Z pierpa_: whether there are any false ones does
2018-03-20T01:48:39Z stacksmith: I'll accept it, although it makes no intuitive sense..
2018-03-20T01:48:48Z pierpa_: hmmm
2018-03-20T01:49:16Z Bike: indeed, "and is true if all its arguments are true" is a pretty common explanation.
2018-03-20T01:49:36Z Bike: thus the identity thing.
2018-03-20T01:49:53Z Bike: on the opposite end, falsehood is the identity of disjunction. (or nil x) = x. so (or) is nil.
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2018-03-20T01:52:04Z stacksmith: OK, I think I get it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuous_truth
2018-03-20T01:52:50Z Bike: mhm.
2018-03-20T01:53:20Z pierpa_: stacksmith: good find
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2018-03-20T01:57:34Z didi: Oh well, the error finally brought down my computer. Lots of RAM consumption and stuff.
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2018-03-20T02:00:52Z didi: Ah, it is not me who is changing the rest parameter. If I don't copy-seq the rest parameter to the local (loop for x in rest-parameter ...), the error occurs. I am almost there.
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2018-03-20T02:11:09Z didi: If anyone wants to look at the method, it is https://paste.debian.net/hidden/85956d89 . I'm even copying the rest parameter for my own use, and the error still occurs. This method calls lots of other functions, so I don't know how useful is to look only to it.
2018-03-20T02:12:29Z didi: If I copy the rest argument before passing it to DOLIST, the error doesn't occur
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2018-03-20T02:13:56Z didi: I suspect DOLIST is doing something naughty to the rest parameter.
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2018-03-20T02:14:57Z pierpa_: nothing suspect jumps at the eye in this method...
2018-03-20T02:15:08Z didi: pierpa_: Thank you for looking at it.
2018-03-20T02:16:04Z pierpa_: yw. DOLIST should do nothing the the list
2018-03-20T02:16:33Z didi: Right? :-(
2018-03-20T02:17:05Z Bike: so what is it you copy that removes the problem?
2018-03-20T02:17:21Z didi: Bike: Let me show it.
2018-03-20T02:18:25Z didi: Bike: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/1c6ba9bb
2018-03-20T02:19:15Z Bike: huh.
2018-03-20T02:19:17Z Bike: seems buggy.
2018-03-20T02:19:26Z didi: :-(
2018-03-20T02:20:26Z pierpa_: IIUC, the first version shows the bug and the second one doesn't. Right?
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2018-03-20T02:21:21Z didi: pierpa_: Right. Copying the rest argument before passing it to MAKE-HSET doesn't influence the occurrence of the error.
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2018-03-20T02:23:53Z pierpa_: complete darkness :(
2018-03-20T02:24:09Z didi: ♪ hello darkness my old friend ♬
2018-03-20T02:24:15Z pierpa_: :)
2018-03-20T02:24:23Z didi: ;-) I'm all day on this.
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2018-03-20T02:29:25Z jcowan: That article on vacuous truth doesn't make clear that sentences like "All my dogs are green" has two logical forms:
2018-03-20T02:30:17Z jcowan: For all x, my_dog(x) -> green(x) is vacuously true if I have no dogs
2018-03-20T02:30:46Z jcowan: whereas the reading "Each member of {my_dogs} is green is vacuously _false_ if I have no dogs.
2018-03-20T02:31:11Z jcowan: The first one has a negation in it, because A -> B = ~A or B, whereas the second does not
2018-03-20T02:31:33Z Bike: how would you write out the second one, exactly?
2018-03-20T02:32:18Z jcowan: I don't know any formal set theory, but it was explained to me in these terms by a logician
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2018-03-20T02:32:25Z jcowan: (John Clifford)
2018-03-20T02:32:27Z pierpa_: I don't understand the second case
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2018-03-20T02:33:06Z Bike: i'm unaware of how the second case would be written out in regular first order logic in a way that differs from the first case
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2018-03-20T02:33:37Z Bike: i mean, even before that junk, it's just a syllogism
2018-03-20T02:33:45Z pierpa_: the second case would be: All x, x in {my dogs} -> green(x)
2018-03-20T02:33:58Z Bike: that's what jcowan wrote for the first case
2018-03-20T02:34:19Z jcowan: The second case is a statement in set theory, not in FOPL
2018-03-20T02:34:50Z Bike: a syllogistic statement, not a whole syllogism, a durr durr
2018-03-20T02:35:10Z Bike: using set membership instead of a predicate doesn't really change anything
2018-03-20T02:35:13Z jcowan: FOPL is a theory where the variables are unqualified
2018-03-20T02:35:41Z jcowan: whereas here we have a qualified variable, whose domain is not every object (as in FOPL) but only the objects in the set
2018-03-20T02:36:13Z Bike: the empty set.
2018-03-20T02:36:43Z pierpa_: hmmm
2018-03-20T02:37:30Z jcowan: I think this paper is relevant https://projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.ndjfl/1093887729
2018-03-20T02:38:09Z Zhivago: I think the simplest way to consider it is that it is a not-invalid subset of a valid set.
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2018-03-20T02:38:38Z Zhivago: Which implies that when you take the union of that with another valid set you should get a valid set.
2018-03-20T02:39:21Z Zhivago: (or intersection, for that matter)
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2018-03-20T02:43:41Z Bike: so, like i have no dogs, and my pal Negasi has one green dog. we can say ««all dogs Negasi and Bike have are green» is true iff all dogs negasi has are green and all dogs bike has are green». all dogs negasi and i have are green, and all of negasi's dogs are green, so to make the equivalence work all of my dogs should be considered green as well.
2018-03-20T02:43:46Z Bike: sensible enough i guess.
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2018-03-20T02:45:05Z Bike: but it does mean that "all A are B" doesn't imply "some A are B". it's my understanding that aristotle killed boole in a duel over this
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2018-03-20T02:49:16Z jcowan: Well, they definitely fought it out, but who's the winner is still an open question, as usual in philosophy
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2018-03-20T02:52:02Z pierpa_: here https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quantification/  there must be the answer. Unfortunately it is too long to read now :)
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2018-03-20T02:57:03Z pierpa_: In particular 2.1
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2018-03-20T03:11:44Z didi: I have a POC! https://paste.debian.net/hidden/ce9fd3b7
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2018-03-20T03:13:16Z Bike: oh yeah, there's lldb.
2018-03-20T03:13:25Z didi: \o/
2018-03-20T03:13:28Z didi: Yay me.
2018-03-20T03:14:43Z Bike: if i put the dolist in a function and call it it's still an error but there's no crash...
2018-03-20T03:15:13Z Bike: well. it's probably some resource depletion deal.
2018-03-20T03:15:31Z Bike: my call-arguments-limit is like 4.6e18. it's probably bullshit
2018-03-20T03:15:54Z Bike: well, definitely bullshit, my computer physically can't fit that much
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2018-03-20T03:18:02Z didi: Something is happening with that rest argument.
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2018-03-20T03:19:49Z didi: When I enter SLIME's backtrace, the rest argument has a (0 . 0) value.
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2018-03-20T03:21:32Z didi: So, what should I do? Is this a SBCL bug?
2018-03-20T03:21:39Z didi: Am I doing something wrong?
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2018-03-20T03:25:39Z loke: didi: does that code drop you into lldb?
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2018-03-20T03:26:58Z didi: loke: SLIME's debugger, so I'm guessing "yes". Here what it looks like: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/9987bb28
2018-03-20T03:28:00Z loke: No. That's not lldb
2018-03-20T03:28:05Z didi: Oh, OK.
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2018-03-20T03:30:11Z loke: I just tested your code.
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2018-03-20T03:30:46Z loke: Repeating 1 or 2 times still works. Repeating 3 times makes it fail.
2018-03-20T03:32:05Z loke: Clearly this is an issue caused by your absolutely massive list of &REST parameters
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2018-03-20T03:32:18Z didi: If it's relevant, I am running SBCL version "1.4.5" with --dynamic-space-size 4096 and --control-stack-size 32.
2018-03-20T03:32:34Z didi: loke: Indeed.
2018-03-20T03:33:02Z loke: Why are you doing that? It's generally quite a bad idea.
2018-03-20T03:33:06Z didi: The POC it's in the order of magnitude of the rests I've been dealing with.
2018-03-20T03:33:16Z loke: You should change that code.
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2018-03-20T03:33:34Z didi: Yeah, I guess.
2018-03-20T03:33:54Z loke: If you have more than a few tens of arguments, you should consider changing your design.
2018-03-20T03:34:23Z didi: Oh, OK. My idea of designing it like LIST, for example.
2018-03-20T03:34:48Z loke: If it's many thousands (200k in your case) make it a vector.
2018-03-20T03:35:17Z didi: You mean, the rest parameter?
2018-03-20T03:35:19Z loke: A list is much better than rest arguments of course, but a vector would probably be faster still (depending on what you intend to do with it)
2018-03-20T03:35:36Z didi: oic
2018-03-20T03:35:37Z loke: But the key thing is to get rid of that ridiculous &REST parameter
2018-03-20T03:35:51Z didi: But in my defense, LIST uses it!
2018-03-20T03:36:23Z loke: didi: Yes, but not for the purpose of creating lists several hundreds (or even thousands) of elements long.
2018-03-20T03:36:32Z didi: :-)
2018-03-20T03:36:42Z loke: So it's a pretty weak defence :-)
2018-03-20T03:36:47Z didi: :-P
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2018-03-20T03:42:28Z pierpa_: They've been too optimist when defining CALL-ARGUMENT-LIMIT. Resetting it to 50 should fix this problem. 50 btw is way more than reasonaly high.
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2018-03-20T03:48:48Z loke: pierpa: I agree with that.
2018-03-20T03:50:24Z Zhivago: I'm not sure that I can agree. Having call-argument-limit makes things like code generators much harder to deal with.
2018-03-20T03:50:47Z Zhivago: Having it work, but be slow, would be far preferable.
2018-03-20T03:51:47Z Zhivago: C should be a sufficient illustration of the perils of 'it works here by accident'.
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2018-03-20T03:53:00Z stylewarning: ELS accept/reject notifications are out
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2018-03-20T03:56:00Z pierpa_: loke: a code generator which must work by the spec and not by accident can rely on not more than 50 arguments, anyway.
2018-03-20T03:56:17Z rme: ccl's call-arguments-limit is 65K, and that seems pretty reasonable to me
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2018-03-20T03:56:45Z pierpa_: if it works then it's reasonable :)
2018-03-20T03:56:57Z rme: a limit of  4.6e18 is so high as to be useless
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2018-03-20T04:02:17Z dtornabene: does anyone know of any security tooling done in lisp? or people who do security work in lisp whose brain I could pick about some questions...?
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2018-03-20T04:03:04Z smokeink: web security ? or binary protection kind of security ?
2018-03-20T04:03:08Z dtornabene: I'm aware of the ecl-spyware guy from like the dotcom boom era
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2018-03-20T04:03:22Z dtornabene: smokeink: either, anything really
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2018-03-20T04:03:30Z pierpa_: bodyguards management software?
2018-03-20T04:03:59Z dtornabene: pierpa_: .....not what I had in mind! but sounds interesting
2018-03-20T04:04:13Z pierpa_: ah :)
2018-03-20T04:04:16Z dtornabene: so I guess I should throw one of them out there
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2018-03-20T04:05:07Z dtornabene: rosette https://emina.github.io/rosette/ is this beautiful tool, and there's been some really interesting work done in the last few years utilizing SAT/SMT around security issues
2018-03-20T04:05:37Z dtornabene: stuff like Sean Heelans work https://www.cprover.org/dissertations/thesis-Heelan.pdf
2018-03-20T04:06:04Z dtornabene: Automatic Generation of Control Flow Hijacking Exploits for Software Vulnerabilites
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2018-03-20T04:06:23Z smokeink: well you can do pretty  much any kind of securing tooling with lisp, I think an intelligent sql-injection tester with lisp would be cool, but I haven't heard of any yet
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2018-03-20T04:06:44Z dtornabene: that does sound cool
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2018-03-20T04:08:15Z smokeink: it's like python on steroids, with super speed and the full power interactive developing and other things that make the program logic easier to follow
2018-03-20T04:08:20Z dtornabene: I've googled a little bit, was hoping there was some code to look at, haven't found anything yet.  Which struck me as odd, given what would seem like the strengths of lisp for security work
2018-03-20T04:08:36Z smokeink: yeah it's fucking surprising
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2018-03-20T04:10:02Z smokeink: actually I also wanted to see such stuff in Lisp, but most lispers are into areas of research other than security
2018-03-20T04:10:26Z dtornabene: like, in the applications tab of rosettes website theres a tool for verifying BGP policies, a couple of other things, but no offensive tools
2018-03-20T04:10:44Z dtornabene: a niche!!
2018-03-20T04:17:48Z smokeink: dtornabene: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
2018-03-20T04:18:54Z smokeink: interactively fiddling with machine code :)
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2018-03-20T04:22:36Z burzos: Why does format automatically insert a newline at 80 characters?
2018-03-20T04:23:03Z smokeink: it should not
2018-03-20T04:23:10Z burzos: Unless maybe it's a problem with my terminal.
2018-03-20T04:23:15Z burzos: Ok.
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2018-03-20T04:27:07Z smokeink: dtornabene: (not lisp related, but nice nonetheless) "I've a dream: A peer-to-peer network, where services like search engines or social networks aren't offered by big companies, who in turn need to make money by selling the privacy of their users. Where all data is encrypted, so that access is only possible for people who have the key and really are authorized. Which layman can use without cryptic user interfaces. Where the browser is a platform for
2018-03-20T04:27:07Z smokeink: running useful applications without the mess of Flash and JavaScript. Without the lag of "buffer bloat" and without the speed problems of a protocol not designed to be assisted by hardware." http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth/ef16/papers/paysan.pdf       https://fossil.net2o.de/net2o/doc/trunk/wiki/net2o.md
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2018-03-20T04:29:38Z burzos: The difficulty I think is that we have the technical ability to do that^ piece-by-piece but that won't get critical adoption.
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2018-03-20T04:30:04Z burzos: You'd need a facebook competitor, not just something that did encrypted chat correctly.
2018-03-20T04:30:10Z burzos: Which you could then add more stuff to later.
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2018-03-20T04:32:44Z stylewarning: burzos: are you using format with ~A with pretty printing?
2018-03-20T04:33:13Z burzos: Probably, if pretty printing is default on.
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2018-03-20T04:33:51Z burzos: Printing some s-expressions.
2018-03-20T04:33:54Z stylewarning: burzos: is it breaking when you print a data structure or a string?
2018-03-20T04:34:02Z stylewarning: Yeah those are getting pretty printed probably
2018-03-20T04:34:17Z stylewarning: Try binding *print-pretty* to nil
2018-03-20T04:34:23Z burzos: Cool, thanks.
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2018-03-20T04:40:11Z didi: Thank you, everybody. Now everything is good and well. Tho, IMO, SBCL shouldn't accept calls for functions with more arguments it can handle. I even got some wrong answers from the offending function, so it didn't crash every time.
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2018-03-20T04:41:01Z loke: didi: I'd recommend you take that to the SBCL developer's mailing list.
2018-03-20T04:41:17Z didi: loke: Thanks.
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2018-03-20T06:09:12Z stacksmith: didi: SBCL reports that 'call-argument-limit' is 4611686018427387903
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2018-03-20T06:24:14Z SaganMan: Morning my glib globs
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2018-03-20T06:30:56Z k-hos: wubbalubbadubdub
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2018-03-20T06:31:37Z SaganMan: lol, you know what I'm upto k-hos :)
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2018-03-20T06:34:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-20T06:35:00Z SaganMan: Morning beach
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2018-03-20T06:41:29Z pillton: smokeink: You should look at https://ipfs.io/.
2018-03-20T06:42:04Z smokeink: thanks
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2018-03-20T07:25:36Z Shinmera: Looks like my ELS paper has been accepted.
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2018-03-20T07:30:15Z Shinmera: It is a bit funny to me that two reviewers note that the paper is too short, despite the fact that demo papers are supposed to be no more than two pages, which I've already exceeded.
2018-03-20T07:30:59Z jackdaniel: you should have used larger pages, duh!
2018-03-20T07:31:01Z jackdaniel: :)
2018-03-20T07:31:08Z jackdaniel: congrats
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2018-03-20T07:34:55Z Shinmera: Thanks. I guess I'll make the paper longer still for the revision.
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2018-03-20T07:49:02Z beach: Shinmera: Congratulations!  We are still waiting for the decision on ours.
2018-03-20T07:49:35Z Shinmera: Apparently there were 21 submissions and only 14 of them are getting accepted to make the conference less crowded.
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2018-03-20T07:52:36Z beach: Oh, no sorry.  Got the information.  Two out of two accepted.  YAY!
2018-03-20T07:52:53Z Shinmera: Wow, congratulations
2018-03-20T07:53:00Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-03-20T07:53:40Z Shinmera: If the amount of submissions keeps up it might start to make sense to extend the symposium by another day.
2018-03-20T07:54:14Z beach: Indeed.
2018-03-20T07:54:29Z beach: "amount of stuff", "number of things".
2018-03-20T07:54:40Z Shinmera: Gah
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2018-03-20T08:01:39Z dim: maybe I should register ;-)
2018-03-20T08:01:55Z dim: (it's failing now, so I might get around to do that only tomorrow)
2018-03-20T08:02:10Z Shinmera: What is failing?
2018-03-20T08:07:42Z dim: it looks like a timeout, but I'm travelling on using not-that-reliable networks, so I don't think it's on the ELS website end
2018-03-20T08:08:00Z dim: tomorrow I should be home again, with solid connection, and I'll retry then
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2018-03-20T08:08:21Z Shinmera: Oh, okey. If you have any problems, please let me know.
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2018-03-20T08:10:15Z samla: Does anyone here have any experience with the 40ants fork of Weblocks?
2018-03-20T08:10:27Z dim: Shinmera: sure, thanks!
2018-03-20T08:13:19Z samla: And more of a softball question: anyone got any experience and opinion of weblocks?
2018-03-20T08:14:05Z Shinmera: My opinion on web frameworks is that they shouldn't try to do too much and should give me full control over how things work. Weblocks stands in opposition to that.
2018-03-20T08:14:31Z Shinmera: It's a different approach, and "just not for me."
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2018-03-20T08:17:09Z samla: For sure, if I understand it correctly (automatically updating widgets in a tree through AJAX) then it might be a nice way of making something like a SPA+Ceramic desktop program
2018-03-20T08:17:36Z samla: And the 40ants branch seems to have ripped out a lot of superfluous stuff
2018-03-20T08:18:08Z jackdaniel: I've worked a little with weblocks and the idea was pretty cool
2018-03-20T08:18:35Z jackdaniel: not sure if it is the best approach for web stuff, but still a very nice thing to play with
2018-03-20T08:19:12Z samla: jackdaniel: is what I wrote above in parens about automatically updating widgets true or have I misunderstood everything :-)?
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2018-03-20T08:19:48Z jackdaniel: yes, in this sense it was dynamic
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2018-03-20T08:21:00Z jackdaniel: for instance I've created a widget which changed application language. clicking it did update whole website to a localized version
2018-03-20T08:21:56Z jackdaniel: (keep in mind that it wasn't redirection to some other location, it worked like a toggle button)
2018-03-20T08:22:50Z samla: Nice! How did you/weblocks propagate that kind of change throughout the system?
2018-03-20T08:23:06Z jackdaniel: but: 1) above certain level of complexity it was hard for me to change it (lack of experience with weblocks?); 2) I've hit bugs quite frequently and project seemed to be abandoned
2018-03-20T08:23:24Z jackdaniel: I don't know, probably through *magic*
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2018-03-20T08:23:47Z jackdaniel: (and don't remember, I've used it 2 years ago or more for about two weeks, so..)
2018-03-20T08:24:42Z jackdaniel: if I had to guess, I'd bet on websockets, but I can't really tell
2018-03-20T08:26:19Z samla: Hehe :-) the server/client communication is through JavaScript magic (not websockets actually!)
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2018-03-20T08:27:08Z Shinmera: Websockets are too modern
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2018-03-20T09:04:35Z schweers: is there a way to use slime on a remote host, so that disconnecting (or network failure) will not terminate the current execution?
2018-03-20T09:04:51Z schweers: I don’t mean to not terminate the lisp session, I know that there is :dont-close for that
2018-03-20T09:05:25Z schweers: but I have a long running command which I’d like to watch in slime, and I’d like to be able to do this even in the presence of network failures
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2018-03-20T09:07:10Z schweers: I know I could use a seperate thread, but I guess debugging that is a bit tricky.
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2018-03-20T09:10:31Z smokeink: what could be tricky about having it in a separate thread? slime also works in a thread of its own (I am not saying there isn't anything tricky, just asking, cuz I also want to know)
2018-03-20T09:11:21Z smokeink: you can launch an emacs on the remote machine
2018-03-20T09:11:36Z jackdaniel: you may simply start swank server on remote machine
2018-03-20T09:12:18Z jackdaniel: if it is started with options  :dont-close t :style :spawn
2018-03-20T09:12:38Z jackdaniel: then when you get disconnected and when you connect again you get the same session
2018-03-20T09:13:01Z jackdaniel: (of course application has to have its own loop which won't die in the meantime)
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2018-03-20T09:13:23Z jackdaniel: schweers: ↑
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2018-03-20T09:14:00Z schweers: hmm, :style :spawn does the trick?  I’ll try that
2018-03-20T09:17:11Z schweers: jackdaniel: should this also keep running if I issue `slime-disconnect' from emacs?
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2018-03-20T09:21:08Z schweers: it doesn’t :/
2018-03-20T09:21:46Z schweers: smokeink: I don’t see a way to attach a repl to a separate thread.  Not sure how to properly phrase this.
2018-03-20T09:22:12Z schweers: I don’t get what is printed to standard-output, for instance, although that should be easy to fix
2018-03-20T09:22:21Z smokeink: yes that's easy to fix
2018-03-20T09:22:30Z schweers: and regarding running emacs on the remote: yes, possible, but kind of eww ;)
2018-03-20T09:22:40Z smokeink: you can run a terminal-mode emacs
2018-03-20T09:22:43Z schweers: but maybe it really is the best solution right now
2018-03-20T09:22:55Z smokeink: and connect to the terminal session using ssh and screen/tmux
2018-03-20T09:23:09Z smokeink: I think any (break) inside the thread will trigger the debugger
2018-03-20T09:23:28Z schweers: oh I just realized that the output went to the swank server, so it wasn’t gone
2018-03-20T09:24:45Z smokeink: in the worst case to get a repl after the debugger has popped out, you can evaluate (loop (print (eval (read)))) or something like that , in the frame
2018-03-20T09:25:16Z smokeink: or you could redirect the output to a log file
2018-03-20T09:25:43Z smokeink: or to a global variable, since your lisp session doesn't die
2018-03-20T09:27:32Z smokeink: "Print a message onto the top-level using a thread" https://z0ltan.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/basic-concurrency-and-parallelism-in-common-lisp-part-3-concurrency-using-bordeaux-and-sbcl-threads/
2018-03-20T09:31:31Z smokeink: you can also just run the plain simple repl over the ssh+screen/tmux session, without slime or emacs
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2018-03-20T09:34:27Z schweers: I was thinking of this last option, but I don’t like it very much.  I’ve become quite accustomed to having slime available.  So I guess it will be running a local emacs instance
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2018-03-20T09:38:23Z smokeink: another option: you can run a gui Emacs on the remote computer and do X forwarding through ssh so that the emacs window is rendered on your local desktop (not sure how it will behave when the connection gets interrupted)
2018-03-20T09:39:06Z schweers: probably suffers from the same problems on network failure
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2018-03-20T09:41:37Z smokeink: https://www.xpra.org/ "it allows you to run programs, usually on a remote host, direct their display to your local machine, and then to disconnect from these programs and reconnect from the same or another machine, without losing any state. "
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2018-03-20T09:44:31Z schweers: huh.  maybe not what I want right now, but might be cool otherwise.
2018-03-20T09:44:40Z schweers: although ... maybe I’ll give it a try
2018-03-20T09:44:41Z shka: emacs has a server mode
2018-03-20T09:45:01Z schweers: shka: why on earth didn’t I think of this earlier?  I use that anyway!
2018-03-20T09:45:14Z schweers: one can forward it over ssh, right?
2018-03-20T09:45:30Z shka: never tried, but i assume yes
2018-03-20T09:45:42Z shka: i don't see why not
2018-03-20T09:46:44Z schweers: I’m still waiting for the remote host to finish something else, then I’ll try one of these solutions.  Thanks for the input!
2018-03-20T09:46:45Z wooden_: q
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2018-03-20T09:47:07Z wooden_: logout
2018-03-20T09:47:17Z wooden_: ~7~7~q
2018-03-20T09:47:19Z TMA: wooden_: use / in front of quit
2018-03-20T09:47:30Z wooden_: exit
2018-03-20T09:47:32Z wooden_: help
2018-03-20T09:47:34Z smokeink: https://serverfault.com/questions/19634/how-to-reconnect-to-a-disconnected-ssh-session "I can't believe no one has mentioned MOSH;Mosh is a seperate protocol that can hook into the SSH login process, it keeps your session alive after days of disconnection, changing IP, high latency and so on."
2018-03-20T09:47:43Z TMA: wooden_: use /quit
2018-03-20T09:47:56Z jackdaniel: /quit
2018-03-20T09:48:02Z wooden_: bash
2018-03-20T09:48:04Z wooden_: reboot
2018-03-20T09:48:26Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2018-03-20T09:52:43Z jackdaniel has set mode -o Jach[m]
2018-03-20T09:52:47Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2018-03-20T09:54:20Z schweers: oh dear, mosh seems to have its own crypto :/
2018-03-20T09:56:27Z loke: schweers: Really?
2018-03-20T09:57:11Z schweers: I’m not entirely sure, but the FAQ has a section which suggests this, as the security of mosh is compared to ssh and ssl.  It uses ssh in the beginning though.
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2018-03-20T09:58:29Z loke: schweers: You'd assume the SSH connection is used to exchange the session keys, making the opportity to screw stuff up smaller.
2018-03-20T09:58:53Z loke: At least they don't have to deal with key exchange, diffie-hellman, assymetric keys etc.
2018-03-20T10:00:59Z dTal: apparently is uses AES
2018-03-20T10:01:07Z dTal: seems like a perfectly sound design
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2018-03-20T10:08:01Z TeMPOraL: a quick question - did anyone here had a problem with log4slime (log4cl), in which the menu worked, but REPL buffer didn't colorize/propertize log output?
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2018-03-20T10:18:12Z TeMPOraL: ok, found it; prettify-symbols-mode breaks half of SLIME coloring, and it also breaks log4slime
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2018-03-20T12:32:18Z flip214: does somebody know of a CL library that help with text analysis? ie. building word vectors in N dimensions etc.?
2018-03-20T12:37:11Z jackdaniel: yes, cl-nlp
2018-03-20T12:37:28Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp
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2018-03-20T12:43:41Z Lycurgus: wow the ACM site is apparently down
2018-03-20T12:44:35Z dlowe: send more computing machinery
2018-03-20T12:45:13Z Lycurgus: that looks nice, would like to some more integrations though, e.g. wordnet, maybe that comes next or is in there but not upfront
2018-03-20T12:45:57Z Lycurgus: at one time they had their own servers running on VMS
2018-03-20T12:46:05Z Lycurgus: when the web was new
2018-03-20T12:46:15Z Lycurgus: and i copped juan@acm.org
2018-03-20T12:46:52Z Lycurgus: well juan@acm.org was b4 the web existed
2018-03-20T12:47:29Z Lycurgus: cl-nlp is also a sweet name
2018-03-20T12:47:38Z Lycurgus: prolly will give it some play
2018-03-20T12:48:11Z Lycurgus: bet there was one b4 this one
2018-03-20T12:50:07Z ecraven: who is the artist that sings https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/eternal-flame.en.html in the ogg all the way down that page?
2018-03-20T12:50:28Z schweers: Julia Ecklar
2018-03-20T12:50:32Z schweers: as far as I know
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2018-03-20T12:52:22Z ecraven: that song captures what lisp means to me better than anything else I've ever seen
2018-03-20T12:52:44Z ecraven: thanks, I took that to mean that the original song was by julia ecklar..
2018-03-20T12:52:59Z schweers: I first heard the song ages ago, long before I knew any lisp.  the more I learnt, the more I understood what the song was about.
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2018-03-20T12:53:25Z schweers: As far is I know, the original song was written and performed by her, as well as the performance of the parody done by her.
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2018-03-20T12:53:46Z schweers: But as I’m not at all familiar with any of her work, besides this one, I don’t know for sure
2018-03-20T12:54:25Z Lycurgus: God
2018-03-20T12:54:49Z Lycurgus: lots and lots of
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2018-03-20T12:59:28Z Lycurgus: *like to see some more
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2018-03-20T13:13:11Z Pierpa: Don't FSF still recommends C? They're more than a bit schizophrenic about lisp
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2018-03-20T13:14:14Z schweers: the FSF recommends programming languages?
2018-03-20T13:14:21Z dlowe: I think they still maintain that guile is the one true extension language
2018-03-20T13:14:58Z schweers: too bad that hardly anyone seems to take them on that advice
2018-03-20T13:15:40Z schweers: but other than that I didn’t know they recommend languages
2018-03-20T13:15:57Z schweers: Pierpa: how are they schizophrenic about lisp?
2018-03-20T13:16:25Z Pierpa: schweers: in the past they did. I'm checking if they still do.
2018-03-20T13:18:31Z dlowe: anyway, if we're going to talk about the lisp family instead of common lisp, let's bring it to ##lisp
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2018-03-20T14:09:41Z smokeink: can (describe #'func) be made to return the lambda list of #'func instead of just printing it to the standard output? or is there any alternative function for doing that?
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2018-03-20T14:10:04Z Bike: clhs function-lambda-expression
2018-03-20T14:10:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2018-03-20T14:10:12Z Bike: but you probably want something implementation specific instead.
2018-03-20T14:10:15Z Bike: what are you doing with it?
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2018-03-20T14:13:41Z smokeink: I'm playing with a code that converts postfix math to lisp (prefix) math http://pastecode.ru/40a1c8b/
2018-03-20T14:14:37Z smokeink: it only works with operations that accept 2 params. (rpn 4 sqrt) fails for example
2018-03-20T14:16:08Z smokeink: I'm curious what ways are there to make it work with sqrt (only 1 param) and other functions that need more than 2 params
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2018-03-20T14:19:20Z Bike: probably you need an arities database you look at
2018-03-20T14:19:40Z Bike: oh. and you want to use the lambda lists for this. i see.
2018-03-20T14:20:21Z Bike: the lisp operators aren't so well behaved for this. for example, floor/ceiling take one OR two arguments.
2018-03-20T14:20:33Z Bike: and of course the basic + - take however many.
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2018-03-20T14:24:26Z smokeink: the ones that take &rest ... however many should only take two (this works fine for + * - / < > at least )
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2018-03-20T14:27:11Z heisig: smokeink: I recently wrote some utilities to determine the lambda list and arity of arbitrary functions, maybe they are useful for you: https://github.com/marcoheisig/Petalisp/blob/master/utilities/function-lambda-lists.lisp
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2018-03-20T14:31:37Z smokeink: nice,thanks guys
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2018-03-20T14:32:48Z Shinmera: heisig: There's already trivial-arguments to determine the lambda list
2018-03-20T14:34:09Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up trivial-arguments
2018-03-20T14:34:10Z Colleen: About trivial-arguments https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-arguments#about_trivial-arguments
2018-03-20T14:37:35Z heisig: Shinmera: Oh, great! I should use that instead. However, it computes only the lambda list, not the arity.
2018-03-20T14:40:01Z Shinmera: heisig: the arity is trivially computable with my other library, lambda-fiddle ;)
2018-03-20T14:41:46Z heisig: Shinmera: Amazing! Next time I want to code something, I will just grep all your repositories first.
2018-03-20T14:42:08Z Shinmera: Heh
2018-03-20T14:42:51Z Shinmera: pjb probably also has a library for everything somewhere.
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2018-03-20T14:54:43Z shka: i am using trivial-arguments, and well, it just works
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2018-03-20T15:01:26Z Shinmera: I would hope so
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2018-03-20T15:02:25Z heisig: I also hope so, I just started using it :)
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2018-03-20T18:12:13Z stacksmith: Good day everyone.
2018-03-20T18:12:27Z onion: hi!
2018-03-20T18:12:43Z didi: stacksmith: Indeed. But it appears to be much less than that.
2018-03-20T18:12:58Z stacksmith: ?
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2018-03-20T18:13:24Z burzos: Does `(ql:quickload "linedit")` work for someone else?  It is here https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html but quicklisp doesn't seem to find it.
2018-03-20T18:13:32Z didi: stacksmith: <stacksmith> didi: SBCL reports that 'call-argument-limit' is 4611686018427387903
2018-03-20T18:13:45Z stacksmith: Oh yeah.
2018-03-20T18:13:59Z stacksmith: Have you found an empirical limit?
2018-03-20T18:14:10Z Xach: burzos: sorry, that is a mistake on the website
2018-03-20T18:14:16Z didi: stacksmith: Well, I can crash it with 200 k elements.
2018-03-20T18:14:31Z burzos: Xach: The package has been dropped?
2018-03-20T18:14:38Z Xach: burzos: yes. it does not work with current sbcl.
2018-03-20T18:14:59Z stacksmith: didi: and you can work around it by copying the &rest (or something like that?)
2018-03-20T18:15:09Z didi: stacksmith: Yeap.
2018-03-20T18:15:15Z didi: Weird stuff.
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2018-03-20T18:15:39Z |3b|: didi: that seems to be a bug, #sbcl is/was working on it earlier
2018-03-20T18:15:49Z didi: |3b|: Oh, cool!
2018-03-20T18:15:55Z stacksmith: didi: just out of idle curiosity - have you tried CCL?
2018-03-20T18:15:59Z burzos: Ok, I see the build failure report now.
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2018-03-20T18:16:36Z didi: stacksmith: I didn't. Someone said that CCL limits it to 60 k IIRC.
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2018-03-20T19:01:07Z stacksmith: Could someone clarify: Bordeaux Threads api states: "Global bindings are shared between threads..." and yet *standard-output* is not usable inside a thread...
2018-03-20T19:02:37Z shka_: stacksmith: yup
2018-03-20T19:02:42Z stacksmith: Is it because *standard-output* is bound somewhere above?
2018-03-20T19:02:58Z shka_: i don't really know, but i noticed this as well
2018-03-20T19:03:17Z |3b|: it is probably usable, just not the same :)
2018-03-20T19:03:32Z shka_: but it matters not, you can bind standard-output yourself and it will work
2018-03-20T19:03:37Z shka_: that's what i do
2018-03-20T19:03:47Z stacksmith: shka_: what do you bind it to?
2018-03-20T19:03:53Z |3b|: and reasonably likely to have non-global bindings
2018-03-20T19:03:55Z stacksmith: or is it with?
2018-03-20T19:04:29Z |3b|: current value of the thread that started the new thread is frequently a reasonable default
2018-03-20T19:04:38Z shka_: stacksmith: simply (let ((output *standard-output*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*standard-output* output))
2018-03-20T19:04:51Z |3b|: or if you want something specific, you can save that in a separate global
2018-03-20T19:05:35Z stacksmith: Have you tried *default-special-bindings* or the initial-bindings parameter in make-thread?
2018-03-20T19:05:35Z |3b|: i think bt:make-thread has an option to specify default bindings so you don't need to do it manually
2018-03-20T19:05:43Z shka_: and no, i don't know why it is like this, but multithreaded standard-output seems like a bad idea, so this may be design choice
2018-03-20T19:06:06Z |3b|: more that "dynamic scope" is a bit hard to define when there are multiple stacks involved
2018-03-20T19:06:08Z shka_: |3b|: it indeed does, but i never remember those :D
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2018-03-20T19:07:10Z stacksmith: I am just trying to make sense of the docs... I suspect that *standard-output* is bound by a let somewhere above and is therefore not a clean global...
2018-03-20T19:07:32Z |3b|: after (let ((*x* 1)) (make-thread ...)) that binding goes out of scope for calling thread, and make-thread exited, so reasonable to expect that binding to no longer exist
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2018-03-20T19:07:35Z shka_: stacksmith: global != dynamic
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2018-03-20T19:08:15Z shka_: sharing dynamic scoped variable between threads does not sound like a great idea
2018-03-20T19:08:15Z |3b|: and special maps well to thread-local
2018-03-20T19:09:28Z stacksmith: Could you explain the difference between dynamic-extent and special declarations ?
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2018-03-20T19:12:53Z stacksmith: crap, I have to run out for a bit...
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2018-03-20T19:14:41Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: dynamic-extent means, that you promise that variable won't escape from the function, so it may be allocated on a stack
2018-03-20T19:15:01Z jackdaniel: special variable is, well, special, something different
2018-03-20T19:16:34Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm ←
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2018-03-20T19:31:09Z didi: Weirdly, the name "dynamic-extent" invokes, in my mind, an image of a variable that has infinite scope.
2018-03-20T19:31:22Z |3b|: stacksmith: note that "dynamic-extent" is a specific declaration, while "dynamic extent" in prose is a slightly different thing
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2018-03-20T19:31:40Z |3b|: or maybe more general things is a better phrasing
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2018-03-20T19:33:15Z |3b|: "dynamic-extent" declaration applies to the /objects/ stored in a particular binding, while "dynamic extent" in general might apply to the binding itself
2018-03-20T19:36:03Z |3b|: so all bindings of a special variable have "dynamic extent" (which is the meaning of the "special" declaration), but are not generally restricted to containing /objects/ with a dynamic extent (the meaning of the "dynamic-extent" declaration)
2018-03-20T19:37:16Z |3b| isn't sure if that actually clarifies anything or not :p
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2018-03-20T19:42:28Z sjl: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html has another explanation
2018-03-20T19:45:17Z hjudt: what can i do to completely delete a package? i have the problem that i deleted a package but when i try to reload it (ql:quickload :package), i get the error "The name xxxx does not designate any package. (Condition of type sb-kernel:simple-package-error)", backtrace starting with (sb-int:find-undeleted-package-or-lose "xxx")
2018-03-20T19:45:45Z hjudt: retries like clear-configuration-and-retry do not work
2018-03-20T19:46:12Z |3b|: first figure out if you actually mean package or system (ql loads systems)
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2018-03-20T19:46:32Z hjudt: sbcl writes package. i guess i mean system.
2018-03-20T19:46:49Z hjudt: but honestly i do not know
2018-03-20T19:47:08Z hjudt: but yes i try to load a system
2018-03-20T19:47:17Z |3b|: are you trying to delete files or a particular object in the lisp image?
2018-03-20T19:47:52Z hjudt: i have loaded the system before, i do not want to delete files, only the packages i created. but i guess i need to delete the "system" too?
2018-03-20T19:47:53Z dlowe: in lisp, a package is a bag of names, while a system is a set of build rules and source code
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2018-03-20T19:48:14Z hjudt: i simply wanted to get rid of the package and reload it freshly with ql.
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2018-03-20T19:48:26Z hjudt: so that all vars etc are completely lost
2018-03-20T19:48:37Z |3b|: probably easiest to just restart the lisp for that
2018-03-20T19:48:40Z hjudt: and functions and methods etc too of course
2018-03-20T19:48:56Z |3b|: though 'package' is probably the correct term
2018-03-20T19:49:02Z hjudt: no, because other things are running at the same time but in different "packages"
2018-03-20T19:49:13Z hjudt: reside in different packages
2018-03-20T19:49:44Z Xach: hjudt: there is no easy generic way to do that.
2018-03-20T19:49:59Z |3b|: yeah, restarting is less useful if you have state you want to maintain :/
2018-03-20T19:50:07Z hjudt: but what may be the problem in my case?
2018-03-20T19:50:23Z hjudt: it seemed to work once, but not the second time
2018-03-20T19:50:27Z |3b|: loading CL code can make arbitrary changes to the state of the lisp image, so hard in general to undo that loading
2018-03-20T19:51:00Z |3b|: you might try forcing reloading of (some of) the code
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2018-03-20T19:52:18Z hjudt: when i e.g. rename or delete a function or symbol, i usually can use fmakunbound/makunbound to get rid of the symbol. that works.
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2018-03-20T19:52:53Z hjudt: i just don't want to do that manually for cleaning up, it is tedious. i thought deleting packages and reloading the system might solve it quickly.
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2018-03-20T19:53:39Z |3b|: yeah, that should more or less work
2018-03-20T19:54:06Z hjudt: i also entered a few statements at the repl to clean up the history, in case it is not garbage collected.
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2018-03-20T19:54:46Z |3b|: (it isn't 100%, since you will probably end up with various references to the old stuff, for example methods on generic functions from other packages specialized on classes from the 'deleted package')
2018-03-20T19:56:07Z hjudt: ok, that could be the case. i have three packages in my system, which use each other.
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2018-03-20T19:57:54Z |3b|: is the code publicly visible anywhere?
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2018-03-20T19:58:27Z ym: Why there is an ability to return multiple values if I cannot directly pass them as function arguments?
2018-03-20T19:58:47Z Bike: you can
2018-03-20T19:58:49Z Bike: multiple value call
2018-03-20T19:58:49Z ecraven: scheme has call-with-values
2018-03-20T19:59:07Z ym: That's not what I mean telling "directly".
2018-03-20T19:59:37Z |3b|: because they are useful even without that ability
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2018-03-20T19:59:49Z |3b|: (probably more useful than with)
2018-03-20T19:59:51Z hjudt: |3b|: at the moment no. i am unsure i could disclose it and most of it wouldn't be useful for anyone else.
2018-03-20T20:00:01Z ym: What for example?
2018-03-20T20:01:03Z |3b| expects (+ 1 (floor 7 2)) being interpreted as (+ 1 3 1) instead of (+ 1 3) would be annoying
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2018-03-20T20:01:40Z ym: (car (floor 7 2)) would work more clear.
2018-03-20T20:02:18Z |3b|: and having to write (+ 1 (values (floor 7 2))) to just pass the primary value would be worse than having to do multiple-value-call on the rare occasions of actually wanting to add the remainder too for some reason
2018-03-20T20:02:40Z ym: What?
2018-03-20T20:02:50Z dlowe: real compilers notice when floor and mod are being used on the same values
2018-03-20T20:03:41Z |3b|: many functions that return multiple values are used mostly for the primary value, and only a few uses need the extra values
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2018-03-20T20:04:44Z |3b|: it seems wasteful having to wrap all of the common case in (values) to get rid of the extra return values, just to simplify the few cases where you want the extra values /and/ want to pass them as adjacent arguments of some function
2018-03-20T20:04:50Z sjl: gethash is one example
2018-03-20T20:04:57Z ym: So returning multiple variables is another kludge made to avoid car?
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2018-03-20T20:05:18Z ym: I'm telling about lists vs multiple values.
2018-03-20T20:05:29Z |3b|: well CAR implies an allocation on the heap
2018-03-20T20:05:39Z sjl: ym: the values aren't returned as a list -- they're returned directly.  So you don't need to allocate memory
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2018-03-20T20:05:48Z ym: Aha.
2018-03-20T20:06:02Z sjl: Having to allocate a fresh cons cell every time you looked up a value in a hash table would be annoying
2018-03-20T20:06:09Z ym: Isn't this is the work of compiler - to optimize code?
2018-03-20T20:06:34Z ym: But, never mind. I got the point. Thanks.
2018-03-20T20:06:51Z |3b|: also consider places where you want to pass a function
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2018-03-20T20:07:45Z |3b|: having to pass (lambda (&rest foo) (car (apply 'some-function foo))) instead of just 'some-function would be rather annoying
2018-03-20T20:08:32Z ym: Still I'd prefer to shift that responsibility on compiler.
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2018-03-20T20:08:34Z |3b|: (along with remembering which functions return extra values that you never use)
2018-03-20T20:09:29Z |3b|: the responsibility to remember that gethash returns extra values, then wrap it in a lambda to call car on it when you want to pass it to something that only wants a single non-list value returned?
2018-03-20T20:09:47Z |3b|: that seems a bit beyond compiler work
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2018-03-20T20:13:36Z ym: Wrapping in lambda to get only needed value from list is work of programmer, optimizing the code - work of compiler.
2018-03-20T20:13:49Z ym: Can't get why that's annoying.
2018-03-20T20:14:04Z |3b|: right, my point is that even if the compiler could optimize it, the code would be annoying and error prone
2018-03-20T20:15:51Z ym: Bad programmer will make annoying and error prone code from whatever language gives.
2018-03-20T20:16:22Z ym: But this is a matter of taste, I think.
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2018-03-20T20:17:00Z |3b|: well, write (values (floor a b)) instead of just (floor a b) then :)
2018-03-20T20:17:41Z ym: I don't ask what to do, I just curious why that feature is in standard.
2018-03-20T20:17:58Z ym: And I got the point. Thanks again.
2018-03-20T20:18:04Z |3b|: because it is useful (and/or because it was in older lisps that were being standardized)
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2018-03-20T20:32:33Z didi: Because of a discussion earlier, TIL (funcall (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (lambda () *x*))) => UNBOUND-VARIABLE
2018-03-20T20:36:04Z vtomole_: clhs declare
2018-03-20T20:36:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
2018-03-20T20:36:10Z |3b|: yep, need to declare it in the function too if it isn't declared globally
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2018-03-20T20:36:41Z Bike: i thought the idea was rather than the function doesn't close over the special binding
2018-03-20T20:37:06Z |3b|: actually, i guess that doesn't help that case, since the local binding exits before the call anyway
2018-03-20T20:37:57Z |3b|: yeah, i didn't read closely enough
2018-03-20T20:38:27Z |3b|: don't need a declaration in the function, need an enclosing special binding around the call
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2018-03-21T00:51:11Z onion: in slime, how do i jump to source location on error ?
2018-03-21T00:51:22Z onion: sbcl isnt giving line numbers or anything
2018-03-21T00:52:42Z didi: onion: v
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2018-03-21T00:53:29Z pillton: You can press M-. on each row in the back trace as well.
2018-03-21T00:53:47Z onion: oh! ty =)
2018-03-21T00:56:31Z pillton: Oh. n and p and v all work together.
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2018-03-21T02:36:22Z jeosol_: is anyone running a web application and could show me their setup. Essentially, settings behind nginx, etc. My eventual is plan is to move to AWS where I have an instance with SBCL but I have not done much.
2018-03-21T02:37:52Z onion: all i know is hunchentoot and cl-who '
2018-03-21T02:37:58Z jeosol_: I have a bias for production web application and I want to start understanding what is involved so set this up.
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2018-03-21T02:38:22Z jeosol_: @onion, thanks. I use those hunchentoot and cl-who
2018-03-21T02:39:03Z jeosol_: but my question is around configuration and deployment, e.g., on AWS. I am able to run simple problems on my machine but want to start looking in the area of deployment.
2018-03-21T02:39:06Z onion: parenscript is also nice. i have only looked at erlang and haskell for servers before cl
2018-03-21T02:39:28Z onion: if its an sbcl image, you can connect emacs or other dev ide to it and develop while its up
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2018-03-21T02:39:49Z rme: learningtouch.com is a CL-backed web site.  It's hunchentoot running behind an Apache reverse proxy.
2018-03-21T02:40:48Z jeosol_: @rme, that sounds like something I will be interested in.
2018-03-21T02:41:05Z rme: If I was setting it up today, I might use ngnix, but there were already other Apache-hosted sites on the same machine.
2018-03-21T02:41:14Z jeosol_: my application runs in emacs/slime
2018-03-21T02:41:54Z jeosol_: why nginx? that would be better because I use that for my simple example, but have problems adding hunchentoot as proxy. I have only been able to get hunchentoot to work with apache2 in the past.
2018-03-21T02:42:18Z rme: that just seems to be what people lean towards using these days.
2018-03-21T02:42:28Z jeosol_: if you recommend, nginx, better then. I will just find a setup with hunchentoot as reverse proxy.
2018-03-21T02:42:37Z jeosol_: ok, thanks for that info @rme
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2018-03-21T02:42:48Z rme: I am not recommending it; I have never used it.
2018-03-21T02:42:49Z jeosol_: I saw somewhere that it is lighter relatively
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2018-03-21T02:44:18Z rme: Apache was easy for me to set up.  Ensure mod_proxy is loaded, and then two lines in the config: "ProxyPass / http://127.0.0.1:9999/" and "ProxyPassReverse / http://127.0.0.1:9999/" and I was all set.
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2018-03-21T02:45:28Z jeosol_: same for me too, apache was easy to set up.
2018-03-21T02:46:04Z jeosol_: do you add that line just in the config or using some special syntax
2018-03-21T02:46:18Z jeosol_: can you share a sample config or sth
2018-03-21T02:46:19Z rme: Then there's a startup script (run from rc.local or something) that runs the ccl in a tmux session and then loads a little lisp file that configures and starts hunchentoot.
2018-03-21T02:46:41Z rme: Those config lines are really all there is.
2018-03-21T02:46:43Z jeosol_: for now, I want to test it on my local pc
2018-03-21T02:46:48Z jeosol_: really?
2018-03-21T02:47:05Z jeosol_: then for your example, hunchentoot is running on port 9999
2018-03-21T02:47:06Z jeosol_: ?
2018-03-21T02:47:08Z rme: right
2018-03-21T02:47:14Z jeosol_: ok doki
2018-03-21T02:47:48Z jeosol_: i guess I have to figure loading mod_proxy in config file, will check web
2018-03-21T02:48:34Z rme: on debian/ubuntu it's "a2enmod proxy" or something like that
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2018-03-21T03:02:53Z jeosol_: @rme, it's the same command in OpenSuse
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2018-03-21T04:06:49Z sukaeto: jeosol_: unfortunately, I can't show any of the code, but I maintain a Caveman2 application running behind nginx: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman
2018-03-21T04:07:38Z sukaeto: in production, we spawn of some number (dependent on the number of CPUs on the host) of FastCGI workers, each in its own docker container
2018-03-21T04:07:44Z sukaeto: and have nginx round robin to them
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2018-03-21T04:37:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-21T04:40:30Z jeosol_: @sukaeto, that would be nice, I think I can learn a lot from your setup
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2018-03-21T04:41:28Z jeosol_: @sukaeto, can i have a look at the nginx setup, even it is dumbed down or something
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2018-03-21T05:12:42Z jeosol_: those running CL web applications, what do you framework do you use? Hunchentoot (raw), Weblocks, Caveman, ...?
2018-03-21T05:13:07Z onion: clack, woo ?
2018-03-21T05:13:38Z onion: looks fast? https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
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2018-03-21T05:17:31Z jeosol_: Thanks @onion, I am assuming these are battle tested and can be used for serious production app?
2018-03-21T05:17:46Z jeosol_: I am thinking of a framework/library to settle on.
2018-03-21T05:18:22Z beach: jeosol_: I recommend you check with Shinmera.  He is probably not awake yet, though.
2018-03-21T05:18:27Z jeosol_: I have a back end application and want to develop the front end part, also using React (recommended by some frontend guy, not an expert in this space)
2018-03-21T05:18:30Z onion: i think woo might be, i will be choosing that myself, ive seen it mentioned today or yesterday in some project
2018-03-21T05:18:46Z jeosol_: @beach, you mean his Radiance library
2018-03-21T05:19:08Z jeosol_: I did give a try in the past and it's the one I invested the most time when I was trying things out.
2018-03-21T05:19:11Z onion: for front end i will be using Parenscript myself. dont need react or anything, just canvas or GL here.
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2018-03-21T05:19:19Z onion: and text
2018-03-21T05:19:21Z beach: No, I mean, check with Shinmera whether your potential choices are "battle tested, etc".
2018-03-21T05:19:22Z jeosol_: I would like a setup that people are using in production
2018-03-21T05:19:54Z jeosol_: Oh I see.
2018-03-21T05:20:32Z jeosol_: michaeljforter says he runs CL apps in production but I sent him a message on Reddit a while ago to see his setup but got nothing. I assume he was busy and forgot
2018-03-21T05:21:00Z jeosol_: *michaeljforster I think?
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2018-03-21T06:10:47Z stylewarning: jeosol_: we run hunchentoot in production
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2018-03-21T06:11:09Z stylewarning: but we also don’t really run a “web app”, more just a web api
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2018-03-21T06:31:40Z didi: Hehe. I'm reading CLTL2 and this came to mind: (my-post-defined-fn (progn (defun my-post-defined-fn (x) x) 42)) => 42
2018-03-21T06:32:02Z didi: So SBCL evals the arguments before looking for the function.
2018-03-21T06:32:19Z loke: didi: I'd expect SBCL to give you a compilation warnings there.
2018-03-21T06:32:26Z didi: loke: Nope.
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2018-03-21T06:33:33Z didi: This is fun.
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2018-03-21T06:43:00Z shka_: didi: it will give you warning but then, it is just warning
2018-03-21T06:45:17Z didi: shka_: It didn't here.
2018-03-21T06:45:31Z shka_: hmmm
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2018-03-21T06:51:53Z shka_: do you think guys that BT will eventually get atomics?
2018-03-21T06:52:06Z beach: British Telecom?
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2018-03-21T06:53:18Z shka_: bordeaux-threads
2018-03-21T06:53:21Z shka_: obviously
2018-03-21T06:53:26Z shka_: and you know it
2018-03-21T06:53:51Z shka_: and god help us if British Telecom starts using anything atomic
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2018-03-21T06:55:08Z beach: It can't evaluate the argument before looking for the function, because then it would not know whether it IS a function, and hence not know whether the argument should be evaluated.
2018-03-21T06:56:09Z didi: beach: IIUC, it can, because if it is not a special form nor a macro, it assumes it is a function.
2018-03-21T06:56:27Z didi: Well, according my reading of CLTL2.
2018-03-21T06:56:31Z beach: right.
2018-03-21T06:56:39Z beach: But it must look for the function to find that out.
2018-03-21T06:57:13Z didi: beach: I think it just assumes it is, evaluates the arguments, then try to find the function. CLTL2 says this is unspecified.
2018-03-21T06:57:40Z beach: didi: To find out that it is not a macro, it must query the environment with the function name.  Which is what I mean by "look for the function".
2018-03-21T06:58:05Z didi: beach: Well, it can find out it is not a special form nor a macro.
2018-03-21T06:58:23Z beach: Not without querying the environment using the name.
2018-03-21T06:58:27Z didi: Sure.
2018-03-21T06:58:38Z beach: Which is what I mean by "looking for the function".
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2018-03-21T06:59:48Z didi: beach: I think I'm not understanding you. What I'm think of is (cond ((special-form-p x) ...) ((macro-p x) ...) (t ;assumes it is a function ...))
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2018-03-21T07:00:37Z beach: didi: You said <didi> So SBCL evals the arguments before looking for the function.
2018-03-21T07:00:44Z didi: Indeed.
2018-03-21T07:00:46Z beach: What did you mean by "looking for the function"?
2018-03-21T07:01:07Z didi: "Hey, what is function names by this symbol?"
2018-03-21T07:01:14Z didi: s/names/named
2018-03-21T07:01:17Z beach: And it must do that first.
2018-03-21T07:01:30Z didi: I don't think so... and it doesn't.
2018-03-21T07:01:34Z beach: Otherwise, it won't know whether it might be a macro.
2018-03-21T07:01:48Z beach: How on earth will it then know that it is not a macro?
2018-03-21T07:02:18Z didi: It checks if it's a macro. It doesn't check if it names a function.
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2018-03-21T07:03:09Z didi: If it's not a special form nor a macro, it assumes it names a function. It doesn't know yet there is no function named by the symbol.
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2018-03-21T07:03:46Z beach: But it very likely does that by calling FDEFINITION.
2018-03-21T07:03:51Z beach: clhs fdefinition
2018-03-21T07:03:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
2018-03-21T07:04:05Z beach: Which is what I mean by "looking for the function".
2018-03-21T07:04:11Z didi: beach: Sorry, I don't know what is FDEFINITION.
2018-03-21T07:04:21Z beach: That's why I gave you the link.
2018-03-21T07:04:42Z didi: beach: Thanks. Tho I don't see how it applies here.
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2018-03-21T07:05:09Z beach: That's the function that the compiler calls to figure out whether it is a macro or a function or a special form.
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2018-03-21T07:05:48Z beach: It could call MACRO-FUNCTION, but MACRO-FUNCTION very likely calls FDEFINITION.
2018-03-21T07:06:05Z didi: beach: It might call it /after/ it assumes it names a function and /after/ it has evaluated the arguments.
2018-03-21T07:06:17Z beach: It can not.
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2018-03-21T07:06:39Z beach: Because it would not know then whether it has the right to evaluate the argument, because it would not know whether it might be a macro.
2018-03-21T07:06:48Z didi: Oh well. The program (my-post-defined-fn (defun my-post-defined-fn (x) x)) evaluated to MY-POST-DEFINED-FN, so I don't know what is happening then.
2018-03-21T07:07:08Z didi: beach: It already knows it is not a macro nor a special form.
2018-03-21T07:07:13Z beach: It calls FDEFINTIION for my-post-defined-fn first.
2018-03-21T07:07:34Z beach: Then it finds that it is neither a macro, nor a special form, nor a function.
2018-03-21T07:07:42Z beach: So it assumes it is a function.
2018-03-21T07:07:52Z beach: Then it knows that it has the right to evaluate the argument.
2018-03-21T07:07:54Z didi: beach: Sorry, I don't know how to convince you. The program runs and CLTL2 says it is possible.
2018-03-21T07:08:19Z beach: What I am saying does not contradict the fact that the code works.
2018-03-21T07:08:25Z didi: I...
2018-03-21T07:08:43Z beach: I am just saying that it has to "look for the function" first, in order to determine whether it has the right to evaluate the argument.
2018-03-21T07:09:01Z didi: OK.
2018-03-21T07:09:52Z beach: There is only one mapping from function names to function-like things in the environment.  That mapping could show that the name is a function, a macro, a special form, or that it is not defined as any of those.
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2018-03-21T07:10:19Z beach: So that mapping has to be queried in order to determine whether it has the right to evaluate the argument.
2018-03-21T07:10:47Z didi: I see.
2018-03-21T07:10:48Z beach: Querying that mapping is "looking for the function".  There is no other way to figure that out.
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2018-03-21T07:49:57Z didi: Hum. Apparently the macro `defvar' has a special way of dealing with its parameter `initial-value'. Something about only evaluating `initial-value' on use? I don't understand it.
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2018-03-21T07:50:25Z beach: If the variable already has a value then no new value is assigned to it.
2018-03-21T07:50:36Z beach: If you don't like that, use DEFPARAMETER instead.
2018-03-21T07:50:46Z didi: beach: No no. I mean "The initial-value form is not evaluated unless it is used; this fact is useful if evaluation of the initial-value form does something expensive like creating a large data structure. "
2018-03-21T07:50:55Z didi: -- CLTL2
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2018-03-21T07:51:16Z beach: CLtL2 is not the standard.
2018-03-21T07:51:22Z didi: Right.
2018-03-21T07:52:25Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec says: initial-value---a form; for defparameter, it is always evaluated, but for defvar it is evaluated only if name is not already bound.
2018-03-21T07:53:01Z didi: beach: Indeed. It says something about Side Effects too that I can't parse.
2018-03-21T07:53:06Z beach: So DEFVAR first checks whether the name is bound.  If it is, then the form is not evaluated.
2018-03-21T07:53:15Z didi nods
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2018-03-21T07:53:55Z beach: So if the form has side effects when evaluated, then those side effects will not happen if the name is already bound (with DEFVAR).
2018-03-21T07:54:29Z didi: oic
2018-03-21T07:54:32Z didi: beach: Thank you.
2018-03-21T07:54:37Z beach: Anytime.
2018-03-21T07:55:20Z beach: You can try it out easily.  Start with (defvar *n* 0)
2018-03-21T07:55:24Z pierpa: Didi: you can check how an actual implementation expands a DEFVAR form...
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2018-03-21T07:55:59Z didi: pierpa: I tried it with DEFUN and got scared.
2018-03-21T07:56:05Z beach: Then (defvar *x* (incf *n*)) *x* *n* (defvar *x* (incf *n*)) *x* *n*
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2018-03-21T07:56:18Z didi: beach: Ah, cool.
2018-03-21T07:56:26Z pierpa: :). reggae should be simpler
2018-03-21T07:56:54Z pierpa: Oops *defvar should be simpler
2018-03-21T07:57:12Z beach: That's a strange typo.
2018-03-21T07:57:23Z didi: :-)
2018-03-21T07:57:42Z pierpa: Autocorrection. I'm typing from a tablet
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2018-03-21T08:01:16Z loke: pierpa: Yeah, that's the real problem :-)
2018-03-21T08:01:24Z loke: Who IRCes via a touchscreen? :-)
2018-03-21T08:01:35Z pierpa: Me :)
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2018-03-21T08:02:05Z loke: beach: OK, I now have a very basic Maxima interaction session working. However... I have a problem that you might be able to explain.
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2018-03-21T08:02:25Z beach: I'm listening.
2018-03-21T08:02:34Z loke: beach: I have two panes: My Maxima interaction pane, and an :INTERACTOR pane below it.
2018-03-21T08:02:48Z loke: I can type all I want in the maxima pane, but the interactor is unresponsive.
2018-03-21T08:02:49Z beach: So two interactor panes?
2018-03-21T08:02:57Z loke: It's like the maxima pane steals all the input or something.
2018-03-21T08:03:04Z beach: Very likely, yes.
2018-03-21T08:03:06Z loke: beach: Yeah, pretty much
2018-03-21T08:03:14Z loke: How can I fix that?
2018-03-21T08:03:22Z beach: Each application frame defines a standard input and a standard output.
2018-03-21T08:03:33Z beach: ACCEPT etc, use those by default.
2018-03-21T08:03:58Z beach: I guess you need two threads, each running a command loop.
2018-03-21T08:04:13Z beach: But I don't quite understand why you would want two command loops.
2018-03-21T08:04:19Z loke: beach: All right, that's doable, but would they be able toshare a frame?
2018-03-21T08:04:32Z beach: Good question.  I don't know.
2018-03-21T08:04:45Z loke: beach: I'm not sure I want. But I discovered that behaviour and I wanted to understand why.
2018-03-21T08:04:57Z beach: OK.
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2018-03-21T08:05:21Z beach: Yes, so basically, each frame has one command loop (at least by default).
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2018-03-21T08:05:40Z beach: And it reads from some stream and writes to some stream by default.
2018-03-21T08:06:20Z beach: And those streams are selected automatically as one of the interactors panes (if one exists) unless you tell it otherwise.
2018-03-21T08:06:29Z loke: OK, Maxima is strange... If I input “x/y”, maxima will return a symbolc equation that looks like this (simplified): ((MTIMES) $X ((MEXPT) $Y -1))
2018-03-21T08:06:49Z beach: Heh, nice.
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2018-03-21T08:07:19Z loke: that is mathematically correct, for not what the user expects to see... How, Maxima's default renderer to text will actually render that as “x/y”, so there is some kind of simplification phase happeneing. I can't for the life of me figure out where that is done though.
2018-03-21T08:08:36Z didi: Uh, so AFAICT the definition of "lambda-expression" changed from CLTL2 to the standard. CLTL2 says a lambda-expression can't be meaningfully evaluated, but the standard says there is a macro `lambda', which by being a macro, can be meaningfully evaluated.
2018-03-21T08:09:16Z loke: didi: I think you're right. In CLtL2 you needed to do #'(lambda () ...)
2018-03-21T08:09:32Z didi: loke: Nice. Thank you.
2018-03-21T08:09:36Z loke: (now I need to check my own copy of CLtL2)
2018-03-21T08:10:38Z beach: LAMBDA is not listed in the index of macros.
2018-03-21T08:10:54Z pierpa: Yes, the lambda macro has been a late addition
2018-03-21T08:12:18Z didi: Heh. (lambda ()) -> #'(lambda ())
2018-03-21T08:13:08Z didi: Cool stuff.
2018-03-21T08:13:48Z didi: I assume (function lambda-expression) works because we can use lambda-expressions in the place of function names.
2018-03-21T08:14:32Z didi: ((lambda (x) (1+ x)) 41) => 42
2018-03-21T08:15:30Z pierpa: I think this is a deprecated syntax, IIRC?
2018-03-21T08:15:53Z didi: Oh, no idea :-P.
2018-03-21T08:16:07Z pierpa: I'm not sure either
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2018-03-21T08:19:26Z pierpa: No, I misremembered. It is ok. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/03_ababd.htm
2018-03-21T08:20:24Z didi: Oh, it even calls "a lambda form", where CLTL2 says it isn't a form, because it can't be evaluated.
2018-03-21T08:21:27Z didi: Tho maybe here "lambda form" is not a "form" the way CLTL2 defines it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2018-03-21T08:22:03Z pierpa: Anyway, even if obsoleted, CLTL2 is more fun to read :)
2018-03-21T08:22:21Z didi: Oh yeah. CLTL2 is fun to read indeed.
2018-03-21T08:22:50Z pierpa: It gives more background
2018-03-21T08:23:35Z didi nods
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2018-03-21T08:41:59Z beach: didi: Since you are reading CLtL2 and since we discussed when functions are "looked for", check section 8.5, page 209.  There is a function FUNCTION-INFORMATION that is not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, but basically the compiler of every implementation must use something similar to find out what a name in a function position means.
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2018-03-21T08:49:48Z schweers: do I read the hyperspec on aref and bit correctly, that the standard does not specify what happens when I attempt an out ouf bounds access?  sbcl seems to throw an sb-int:invalid-array-index-error.  I guess it depends on the debug optimizations?
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2018-03-21T08:50:17Z beach: schweers: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is full of undefined behavior like that.
2018-03-21T08:50:59Z beach: And, yes, you are right.
2018-03-21T08:51:34Z pierpa: clhs bit
2018-03-21T08:51:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_bit.htm
2018-03-21T08:52:18Z beach: schweers: It also doesn't specify what happens if you give something other than an array to AREF.
2018-03-21T08:53:35Z schweers: k, thanks.  Then I’ll just check the bounds myself.
2018-03-21T08:54:43Z beach: The fact that there are so many undefined situations in the Common Lisp HyperSpec is the reason I started the WSCL (pronounced "whistle") project.
2018-03-21T08:55:04Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
2018-03-21T08:56:00Z schweers: I think I remember you mentioning this before.
2018-03-21T08:56:27Z beach: I am repeating it for the benefit of those #lisp participants who didn't see it that time. :)
2018-03-21T08:56:51Z schweers: And for those with weak memory, such as myself ;)
2018-03-21T08:56:59Z beach: That too, yes.
2018-03-21T08:57:57Z flip214: beach: thanks, looking!
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2018-03-21T08:58:49Z flip214: are you planning to include CDRs in the future, too?
2018-03-21T08:59:44Z pierpa: Duh. Thanks for the reminder. I was already watching the project but I had forgot about it :(
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2018-03-21T09:18:55Z beach: flip214: For WSCL?  My current thinking is to avoid new functionality.  A good existing Common Lisp implementation should already be a WSCL implementation, or at least nearly so.
2018-03-21T09:19:46Z schweers: beach: have you added any behavior that no existing implementation already has?
2018-03-21T09:21:39Z beach: schweers: At the moment, I haven't done anything.  But I don't intend to add new functionality.  I only plan to specify many of the things that the Common Lisp HyperSpec leaves unspecified.  And it should be such that the most common implementations already specify those things in a reasonable way.
2018-03-21T09:22:04Z beach: There could of course be some odd cases, but I will try to avoid those.
2018-03-21T09:22:33Z schweers: maybe I didn’t make clear what I meant.  The standard doesn’t specify what happens when aref is given an out of bounds index.  You specified what should happen in WSCL?
2018-03-21T09:22:41Z beach: Like what happens if you pass something other than an array to AREF in safe code.
2018-03-21T09:22:56Z beach: Yes, I intend to specify things like that.
2018-03-21T09:23:07Z beach: And I plan to use the term "safe code" a lot for that.
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2018-03-21T09:23:23Z beach: "safe code" is already defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-03-21T09:23:38Z schweers: And you only specify behaviour, which at leas one existing implementation already does?  For instance, as sbcl throws an error, you might specify that an error should be thrown?
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2018-03-21T09:24:39Z beach: [errors are "signaled" in Common Lisp.  Not thrown.]  Sort of.  I do not plan to check whether at least one implementation does what I want.  So it might be the case that for a few cases, no implementation does the right thing.
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2018-03-21T09:25:02Z schweers: okay, that’s what I meant :)
2018-03-21T09:25:10Z schweers: eh, yes, signalled, not thrown.  my bad.
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2018-03-21T09:25:49Z beach: But SBCL is pretty picky already, so I expect few such cases.
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2018-03-21T09:42:41Z shka: beach: btw, where there is a repo with WSCL?
2018-03-21T09:42:54Z shka: *where is the repo
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2018-03-21T09:47:09Z beach: shka: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
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2018-03-21T09:49:03Z shka: beach: thank you!
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2018-03-21T10:04:28Z shka: beach: can you estimate how far from finished WSCL is?
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2018-03-21T10:24:06Z beach: shka: As far as it was when I started it.
2018-03-21T10:24:10Z beach: I haven't worked on it.
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2018-03-21T10:24:44Z beach: In fact, if someone could help me set up the dpANS files so that I could do a single `pdflatex' to compile it, then that would help immensely.
2018-03-21T10:25:19Z beach: Also, someone pointed out that I am not using the most recent version of dpANS, which I didn't know.  I would like to do that of course.
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2018-03-21T10:34:08Z pierpa: Perhaps it would be easier to start from the CLHS? It should be way easier to reverse engineer
2018-03-21T10:34:25Z shka: beach: well, I will just create issues on github for you
2018-03-21T10:36:19Z shka: can't really help with those, i am not good with latex
2018-03-21T10:36:48Z shka: but puttin issues on github is some way to start..
2018-03-21T10:38:11Z TMA: pierpa: I think it was discussed already. there was some licensing issue, IIRC
2018-03-21T10:43:49Z pierpa: TMA: ok. I was not aware.
2018-03-21T10:51:23Z beach: shka: Thank you!
2018-03-21T10:52:21Z beach: pierpa: TMA is right.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec is copyright by LispWorks and they do not allow derived work.
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2018-03-21T10:52:48Z shka: and that is truely unfortunate
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2018-03-21T10:53:26Z beach: shka: Doesn't matter much.  I mean, phoe has already removed that problem essentially, by creating CLUS.
2018-03-21T10:53:45Z shka: CLUS is not yet complete
2018-03-21T10:53:51Z beach: True.
2018-03-21T10:53:58Z shka: and currently stagnant
2018-03-21T10:54:05Z beach: That too.
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2018-03-21T11:15:53Z runejuhl: ~/
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2018-03-21T11:16:35Z runejuhl: hm, that was weird... just ignore me :)
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2018-03-21T14:35:15Z Xach: I want to use ~/foo/ more.
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2018-03-21T15:01:00Z onion: Xach: what? =)
2018-03-21T15:01:53Z Xach: That is all!
2018-03-21T15:02:14Z Xach: I think I use it too little to solve printing problems and that is something to correct!
2018-03-21T15:02:15Z onion: oh! well and fine!
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2018-03-21T15:03:46Z Shinmera: Xach: I think I found a quite nifty use case for it in my GLSL toolkit: https://github.com/Shirakumo/glsl-toolkit/blob/master/printer.lisp
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2018-03-21T15:04:14Z Shinmera: Though I use a preprocessing step to turn ~o into ~/ORG.SHIRAKUMO.TRIAL.GLSL::%FORMAT-OBJECT/, since that's quite a mouth full.
2018-03-21T15:05:44Z Xach: I liked the hack of ~/iso:8601/ for a date
2018-03-21T15:06:01Z Shinmera: Nice
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2018-03-21T16:10:09Z bl1nd: I want to learn clojurescript. Should I learn clojure before? Should I even learn another dialect of lisp before Clojure?
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2018-03-21T16:12:11Z Shinmera: This channel is for Common Lisp, so you will be told to learn Common Lisp, regardless of your interest in Clojure.
2018-03-21T16:12:18Z schweers: bl1nd: note that this channel is about common lisp, not the whole lisp family.  Nevertheless I suppose learning clojure first will make your life easier.
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2018-03-21T16:17:19Z shka: learn common lisp!
2018-03-21T16:17:25Z shka: ;-)
2018-03-21T16:17:37Z oleo: commie lisp
2018-03-21T16:17:39Z oleo: lol
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2018-03-21T16:20:44Z bl1nd: schweers: sorry, didn't realize that.
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2018-03-21T16:21:22Z schweers: not a problem.  I guess there are channels dedicated to clojure and clojurescript.  Maybe you should ask there
2018-03-21T16:21:32Z bl1nd: I did :)
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2018-03-21T17:04:35Z khrbt: why are swank fasls in ~/.slime/ and not ~/.cache/common-lisp/ ?
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2018-03-21T21:33:13Z Shinmera: A text editor in a slide show because why not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or9zsq3iO7A
2018-03-21T21:35:02Z Shinmera: The actual why is a special surprise for ELS attendants ;)
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2018-03-21T21:39:58Z Xach: local package nickname print/read consistency is making me queasy
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2018-03-21T21:57:48Z Xach thinks about it
2018-03-21T21:59:13Z Xach: I've been trying to think of a way to add local package nicknames without adding any new packages or functions, only extending existing functions.
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2018-03-21T21:59:38Z Xach: But I can't think of a place to put a way to map a package to a local name in effect for it
2018-03-21T22:00:33Z Xach: e.g. if you have a local nickname for "com.xach.mycoolpackage" as "mcp", (some-standard-function (find-package "org.xach.mycoolpackage")) => ("mcp")
2018-03-21T22:02:01Z sukaeto: jeosol_: I believe this is a minimal example nginx config: https://pastebin.com/pXx9U7nK
2018-03-21T22:02:36Z sukaeto: iirc, the round robin is the default (I couldn't find anything explicitly setting it).  The stuff in fastcgi.conf is just the default that comes with nginx
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2018-03-21T22:03:19Z sjl: Xach: (find-package "org.xach.mycoolpackage")=> (values the-package '("mcp")) ?
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2018-03-21T22:05:06Z sjl: wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem
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2018-03-21T22:07:31Z sjl: could add a key parameter to package-nicknames: (package-nicknames "org.xach.mycoolpackage" :local-to (find-package "some-package")) => ("mcp")
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2018-03-21T22:16:41Z jeosol_: @sukaeto, you are the man (or woman)
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2018-03-21T22:18:11Z jeosol_: you are using clack for this? anything else I need to use this nginx config file.
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2018-03-21T22:18:31Z jeosol_: sukaeto: you are using clack for this? anything else I need to use this nginx config file.
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2018-03-21T22:21:45Z sukaeto: jeosol_: yeah, it's just clack.  If you're not using docker, you'll have to come up with some scheme for assigning ports to the workers (and supervising them)
2018-03-21T22:22:29Z jeosol_: I haven't done anything, so I can use whatever works to get me to get an AWS instance working
2018-03-21T22:22:35Z sukaeto: (of course, replace "worker1", etc with the container names, or localhost if you're not using docker)
2018-03-21T22:22:53Z Shinmera: I just use Hunchentoot with Nginx in front as a proxy.
2018-03-21T22:23:15Z jeosol_: Shinmera, can I see a sample config file. Thanks for chiming in
2018-03-21T22:23:54Z Shinmera: Google nginx proxy http or something.
2018-03-21T22:24:11Z jeosol_: While I have used hunchentoot, have not used it with nginx. Haven't used Clack at all. So some learning to do on my end.
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2018-03-21T22:27:27Z sukaeto: FWIW, I use hunchentoot in slime for dev
2018-03-21T22:27:31Z sukaeto: clack supports either backend
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2018-03-21T22:28:16Z jeosol_: I see
2018-03-21T22:29:59Z didi: So reading about dynamic extend, I got an idea: If, when using FFI, instead of messing with the GC, we declared the alloc'ed variables with dynamic extend and cleaned them just before leaving the block?
2018-03-21T22:30:16Z didi thinking out loud
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2018-03-21T22:30:35Z Xach: sjl: i like that last bit
2018-03-21T22:30:48Z didi: Just like the macro `with-open-stream'.
2018-03-21T22:32:54Z jeosol_: @sukaeto: you are saying with docker, the assignment of ports to workers is handled if I am using docker?
2018-03-21T22:33:59Z sukaeto: jeosol_: the docker containers themselves have their own own "port space".  They're kind of like mini guests on the host
2018-03-21T22:34:07Z onion: i seen this yesterday https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2018-03-21T22:34:17Z stacksmith: didi: what kind of variables do you allocate when using ffi?
2018-03-21T22:34:22Z sukaeto: so yeah, you can have all the workers just listen on the same port and there won't be any collisions if they're each in a different container
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2018-03-21T22:35:55Z jeosol_: I see, I admit I am not a docker expert. I will have to read up on this. Thanks for the explanations
2018-03-21T22:36:54Z didi: stacksmith: Well, many alien libraries have functions like `make-widget', which malloc memory.
2018-03-21T22:37:19Z didi: stacksmith: It is up to the user to clean them up.
2018-03-21T22:37:42Z stacksmith: didi: I have a macro "with-foreign-vals" that makes an environment with allocated foreign values.  Like (with-foreign-vals (:int16 x :int16 y :int16 width :uint16 height) ...) I use it all the time for ad-hoc cffi allocations.
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2018-03-21T22:38:43Z didi: stacksmith: Cool. I struggle with the idea of wrapping these variables because I want to feel like programming in lisp, even if I'm calling foreign functions.
2018-03-21T22:39:01Z stacksmith: didi: I see... things like widgets generally need indefinite extent...
2018-03-21T22:39:08Z didi nods
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2018-03-21T22:41:47Z stacksmith: didi: you could actually do what you described, but I prefer - at least during development - to be able to create a window with widgets, say, and return to REPL...
2018-03-21T22:42:41Z stacksmith: didi: with- macros are cool, but they make it hard to split the code up.
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2018-03-21T22:43:16Z didi: stacksmith: Right? Oh well.
2018-03-21T22:43:56Z stacksmith: didi: I really miss continuations...
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2018-03-21T22:44:34Z didi: stacksmith: I know what they are, but never used them. Well, except for non-local exits.
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2018-03-21T22:46:49Z stacksmith: didi: I've never used any built-in ones, but sometimes it feels really great to turn a program inside out... Like say an image viewer that decodes as many bytes as you send it and returns instead of a loop that takes over and blocks...
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2018-03-21T22:50:06Z didi: stacksmith: Well, you don't need continuations for that. You can use threads. Unless you want green threads, AIUC. I've being writing a library for concurrency programming for a while, that abstracts away from threads, but I've being stuck.
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2018-03-21T22:52:03Z stacksmith: didi: I am always dealing with deeply nested trees, and I wind up wanting to do something deep inside on a branch.  I could send a lambda, but it can only do so much.  With continuations, I could make the code stop where I want and return.  Then I can do things like bind some variables and go back in for the rest of the branch.
2018-03-21T22:52:30Z Bike: cffi has with-foreign-objects, is it different?
2018-03-21T22:52:32Z didi: stacksmith: Maybe look at the condition system?
2018-03-21T22:52:48Z didi: stacksmith: Sounds like something useful for your use case.
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2018-03-21T22:53:58Z didi: Bike: I dunno. Good question. Maybe it can be used. But the more high level question is: Should the alien variables feel like lisp variables that can be GCed or not?
2018-03-21T22:54:26Z stacksmith: Bike: I am trying to remember why I didn't use that... Perhaps stupidity.
2018-03-21T22:54:32Z Bike: huh? the gc probably can't handle alien memory
2018-03-21T22:54:35Z Bike: that's why it's alien
2018-03-21T22:55:01Z didi: Indeed. But we can hook into the GC of implementations that allows us to do it.
2018-03-21T22:55:09Z stacksmith: didi: you mean foreign-free I assume...
2018-03-21T22:55:14Z didi: stacksmith: Yeap.
2018-03-21T22:55:14Z Bike: which implementations are those?
2018-03-21T22:55:24Z didi: Bike: SBCL is one, I think?
2018-03-21T22:55:41Z Bike: no, alien memory is still alien on sbcl, i'm pretty sure
2018-03-21T22:55:46Z stacksmith: I don't think any implementation keeps track of foreign memory.
2018-03-21T22:55:55Z Bike: i'm really not sure what you have in mind here
2018-03-21T22:56:06Z Bike: some implementations, like sbcl, can already stack allocate foreign memory
2018-03-21T22:56:09Z didi: Finalization is the name I'm looking fore.
2018-03-21T22:56:22Z Shinmera: The memory being foreign by definition makes it non-gcable.
2018-03-21T22:56:34Z Bike: i don't think you can put finalizers on foreign objects
2018-03-21T22:56:41Z didi: You wrap around the foreign object.
2018-03-21T22:57:00Z stacksmith: I thing by GC didi means just getting rid of it properly at some point in the fugure.
2018-03-21T22:57:04Z Bike: you mean, have a lisp object that is asosicated with some block of foreign memory?
2018-03-21T22:57:11Z didi: Bike: Yes!
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2018-03-21T22:57:27Z didi: stacksmith: Yes![2]
2018-03-21T22:57:35Z Bike: what does that have to do with dynamic extent?
2018-03-21T22:58:33Z stacksmith: There was an idea of keeping foreign variables on the stack and having them go out of scope naturally, I believe.
2018-03-21T22:58:50Z didi: ^
2018-03-21T22:59:06Z Bike: ...well then where does the lisp object association come in
2018-03-21T22:59:31Z didi: Maybe not in the stack. The "dynamic extent" has more to do with the idea of an object being valid just inside the block.
2018-03-21T23:00:07Z didi: Bike: They are different strategies for dealing with foreign objects.
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2018-03-21T23:06:06Z smokeink: jeosol: I'd recommend lighttpd over nginx (I had some issues in the past with its config files , its config script language it's one of the dumbest I've ever seen) .  Some notes here: http://dpworks.net/miscellanea/mod_lisp-lighttpd.html , http://pastecode.ru/8d5d29/
2018-03-21T23:06:27Z smokeink /s/it's/is/
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2018-03-21T23:09:17Z stacksmith: Bike: I think the reason I wrote with-foreign-vals is because I allocate/free a single foreign object containing all the foreign values specified...
2018-03-21T23:10:11Z stacksmith: It's for making ad-hoc structures.
2018-03-21T23:10:53Z stacksmith: Yes, it's all coming back to me now.
2018-03-21T23:11:20Z smokeink: http://blog.kingcons.io/posts/A-Common-Lisp-Web-Development-Primer-Part-1.html
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2018-03-21T23:45:52Z johnnymacs: What does the syntax of object oriented programming in lisp look like?
2018-03-21T23:46:12Z pillton: (operator object-1 object-2)
2018-03-21T23:46:49Z pillton: Sorry. (operator object-1 object-2 ...)
2018-03-21T23:47:10Z pillton: Generic functions perform multiple dispatch.
2018-03-21T23:50:38Z johnnymacs: are hash tables part of the hyperspec?
2018-03-21T23:51:00Z pillton: clhs make-hash-table
2018-03-21T23:51:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
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2018-03-21T23:52:18Z johnnymacs: can I store the reference to a hash table within another hash table?
2018-03-21T23:53:06Z Bike: sure
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2018-03-22T00:02:45Z johnnymacs: So you can say (defun make-object () (make-hash-table))
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2018-03-22T00:03:34Z johnnymacs: and (defun . (x y) (gethash x y))
2018-03-22T00:04:24Z Bike: you have to escape the dot, since it means something for lisp syntax
2018-03-22T00:04:27Z Bike: but otherwise s ure
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2018-03-22T00:04:46Z johnnymacs: does lisp have something like vocabularies in forth?
2018-03-22T00:05:24Z johnnymacs: It basically lets you have multiple namespaces so you can re-use symbol names for shorter code
2018-03-22T00:05:43Z jasom: johnnymacs: they are called packages
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2018-03-22T00:07:13Z jasom: johnnymacs: variable and function names are actually not strings in lisp, but rather symbols.  You can create a unique symbol with a given name in any package, you can import symbols from one package to another, and you can even create symbols that are not in any package at all.
2018-03-22T00:07:44Z jasom: The last one is useful for writing macros; you can create brand new symbols with readable names that are guaranteed to not be used anywhere else in the code.
2018-03-22T00:08:24Z fouric: Does anyone know of a Common Lisp project in a GitLab repository with successfully running CI that I might be able to take a look at?
2018-03-22T00:09:06Z jasom: johnnymacs: all of the symbols defined in the common lisp standard are in the "COMMON-LISP" package, which has an alias of "CL" so e.g. "cl:print" will always refer to the standard print, while "print" will refer to whatever symbol is named print in the current package.
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2018-03-22T00:13:51Z johnnymacs: fouric: CI?
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2018-03-22T00:15:08Z Bike: continuous integration testing.
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2018-03-22T00:23:37Z fouric: Yes.
2018-03-22T00:23:52Z fouric: ...and, while I technically have CI set up, roswell appears to be segfaulting.
2018-03-22T00:24:00Z fouric: ...which I assume is not normally supposed to happen
2018-03-22T00:24:36Z johnnymacs: But what does CI stand for?
2018-03-22T00:24:45Z johnnymacs: oh bike said it
2018-03-22T00:26:13Z johnnymacs: https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=integration+language%3A%22Common+Lisp%22&type=Repositories&ref=advsearch&l=Common+Lisp&l=
2018-03-22T00:26:25Z Bike: gitlab, they said
2018-03-22T00:26:36Z Bike: also most of these are irrelevant.
2018-03-22T00:26:56Z johnnymacs: why does it matter if it's on github or gitlab?
2018-03-22T00:27:15Z Bike: gitlab might have something set up for it
2018-03-22T00:27:17Z Bike: as github does
2018-03-22T00:27:27Z Bike: continuous integration integration, if you will
2018-03-22T00:27:50Z fouric: ^ GitLab has its own CI setup
2018-03-22T00:28:22Z fouric: I don't know if it's incompatible with GitHub's, but that's partially because it's really hard to search for repos with CI set up
2018-03-22T00:28:35Z fouric: if someone more knowledgeable than I tells me that they're interchangable, then I'll believe them
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2018-03-22T00:34:23Z johnnymacs: well here is my two cents
2018-03-22T00:34:42Z johnnymacs: there could be continuous integration that is setup for git that is agnostic to gitlab or github
2018-03-22T00:36:35Z Bike: nah
2018-03-22T00:36:40Z fouric: ...which I would be happy with too, if it existed.
2018-03-22T00:36:54Z fouric: It would be a starting point, at least.
2018-03-22T00:37:21Z Bike: https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/getting-started/ well there's one example for you
2018-03-22T00:37:25Z Bike: no clue about roswell or whatever
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2018-03-22T00:42:44Z johnnymacs: What is the type system type of a reference to a hash table
2018-03-22T00:43:07Z Bike: alright one you can drop the "reference" stuff.
2018-03-22T00:43:13Z Bike: two, the type of a hash table is hash-table.
2018-03-22T00:43:17Z Bike: clhs hash-table
2018-03-22T00:43:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_hash_t.htm
2018-03-22T00:44:22Z johnnymacs: that link does not contain the answer to my question unfortunately
2018-03-22T00:44:36Z Bike: uh, it kinda does.
2018-03-22T00:44:38Z Bike: what did you have in mind?
2018-03-22T00:44:41Z johnnymacs: I think what you are trying to say is that lisp handles the reference passing automatically
2018-03-22T00:44:52Z Bike: what i'm saying is the semantics of lisp involve no "references".
2018-03-22T00:45:24Z johnnymacs: Oh well you kind of sort of answered my question
2018-03-22T00:45:38Z Bike: it's not like C where you can have things and then you can have pointers to things, and so on.
2018-03-22T00:46:00Z johnnymacs: well you "can" you just wouldn't unless you were writing optimizations
2018-03-22T00:46:25Z Bike: no, you can't. there is no analogous concept.
2018-03-22T00:46:29Z onion: ohh
2018-03-22T00:46:35Z johnnymacs: so it is impossble to implement malloc in lisp?
2018-03-22T00:46:35Z Bike: you could make a struct or something that contains another object, i guess.
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2018-03-22T00:46:40Z onion: well, the 'keys' of the hash table are implementation-specific arent they ?
2018-03-22T00:46:46Z onion: but one could convert dict/plist/alist/etc to such
2018-03-22T00:46:56Z Bike: standard lisp has no understanding of memory at all
2018-03-22T00:46:59Z johnnymacs: a key is just a series of bytes
2018-03-22T00:47:01Z didi: onion: What do you mean?
2018-03-22T00:47:01Z Bike: extensions could do it, if they want
2018-03-22T00:47:05Z Bike: keys of hash tables are objects
2018-03-22T00:47:35Z didi: A key just need to be comparable by eq/eql/equal/equalp.
2018-03-22T00:48:33Z onion: i think he is just looking for how to 'reference' an entry of a hash table ? why complicate?
2018-03-22T00:48:41Z Bike: because that doesn't mean anything
2018-03-22T00:48:54Z Bike: a hash table is a mapping of keys to values, obviously
2018-03-22T00:48:55Z johnnymacs: No I can use common lisp hash tables alreaqdy
2018-03-22T00:49:00Z Bike: you can pull out the keys and values as you like
2018-03-22T00:49:00Z onion: not in lisp world. he is in his world, however.
2018-03-22T00:49:02Z Bike: they're just objects
2018-03-22T00:49:04Z johnnymacs: I just didnt understand how pointers were obfuscated
2018-03-22T00:49:17Z onion: there arent any pointers , then ?
2018-03-22T00:49:30Z Bike: Okay, if you want implementation details, here's the thing. Common garbage collection strategies rule out the use of pointers by the programmer.
2018-03-22T00:49:43Z fouric: johnnymacs: what would the *purpose* of implementing malloc() in Common Lisp be?
2018-03-22T00:49:51Z onion: i would just tell him that every "variable" is a pointer
2018-03-22T00:49:53Z Bike: "copying" GCs move objects around in memory, which means pointers would stop working fast.
2018-03-22T00:49:56Z johnnymacs: fouric: I dunno man mayb ea foreign functions interface
2018-03-22T00:50:00Z Bike: no! not every variable is a pointer! there are no pointers!
2018-03-22T00:50:06Z didi: Hihi.
2018-03-22T00:50:28Z onion: well they arent the objects themselves, and i think that is what he is getting at =)
2018-03-22T00:50:47Z onion: ie not passing a "whole object structure" to functions as what we can do with C without pointers
2018-03-22T00:51:01Z pillton: Bike: What is the phrase beach uses?
2018-03-22T00:51:05Z Bike: trying to understand lisp as if it was C will just make it more confusing
2018-03-22T00:51:06Z onion: but just a reference to it (which is obfuscated that we dont have to worry about it)
2018-03-22T00:51:09Z Bike: beach useds a lot of phrases
2018-03-22T00:51:14Z fouric: johnnymacs: Yeah, but there's already an FFI (actually, several - to C, C++, Python, and maybe a few more), and none of them needed malloc() written - modern implementations provide ways to do that.
2018-03-22T00:51:23Z Bike: or they just use the system malloc
2018-03-22T00:51:25Z Bike: like, why not
2018-03-22T00:51:26Z fouric: "do that" being "interface with foreign code"
2018-03-22T00:51:30Z Bike: got an ffi already and all
2018-03-22T00:51:49Z pillton: beach says 'Common Lisp uses what I call "Uniform reference semantics"'.      [02:30]
2018-03-22T00:52:08Z onion: =/
2018-03-22T00:52:09Z Bike: eh, i dunno about that
2018-03-22T00:52:11Z Bike: objects are objects
2018-03-22T00:52:20Z Bike: you pass objects to functions, which can modify the objects
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2018-03-22T00:52:40Z onion: terminology
2018-03-22T00:52:41Z Bike: it's really pretty simple until you start concerning yourself with pointers
2018-03-22T00:53:04Z pillton: But you have to understand what is meant by a variable being bound to an object.
2018-03-22T00:53:15Z onion: what was the original question
2018-03-22T00:53:29Z Bike: "What is the type system type of a reference to a hash table"
2018-03-22T00:53:46Z johnnymacs: Other people are getting confused about my support question when my question is already answered
2018-03-22T00:55:26Z onion: another day in the life of a lisper
2018-03-22T00:55:55Z onion: i would definately ask "whats a ref to a hshtbl" but we like to talk about lisp also, so =)
2018-03-22T00:57:17Z didi: Incidentally, an object can have multiple types.
2018-03-22T00:58:59Z onion: record scratch
2018-03-22T00:59:02Z onion: wait wait
2018-03-22T00:59:04Z didi: "In Common Lisp, a data type is a (possibly infinite) set of Lisp objects. Many Lisp objects belong to more than one such set, and so it doesn't always make sense to ask what is the type of an object; instead, one usually asks only whether an object belongs to a given type. The predicate typep may be used to ask whether an object belongs to a given type, and the function type-of returns a type to which a given object belongs. "
2018-03-22T00:59:32Z onion: ahh deftype ?
2018-03-22T01:00:39Z onion: how is that not like haskell typeclasses? or rust traits? or generics..? hmmmm
2018-03-22T01:00:57Z Bike: how is it like type classes?
2018-03-22T01:01:19Z Bike: a type class expresses an interface, right?
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2018-03-22T01:01:49Z onion: like java interface? objective-c protocol ? all pretty much the same thing
2018-03-22T01:02:02Z Bike: i mean lisp types don't express an interface
2018-03-22T01:02:03Z onion: where an "object" can fill in or belong to a class or set of traits
2018-03-22T01:02:13Z Bike: (member foo 17) is a type
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2018-03-22T01:02:36Z onion: hmm, type classes is like generics mostly, with some operator overloading stuff
2018-03-22T01:03:16Z onion: the variable foo is unbound
2018-03-22T01:03:35Z Bike: (typep 4 '(member foo 17))
2018-03-22T01:03:43Z vtomole: clhs object
2018-03-22T01:03:44Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for object.
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2018-03-22T01:04:11Z Bike: clhs object/g
2018-03-22T01:04:11Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for object/g.
2018-03-22T01:04:15Z Bike: hum
2018-03-22T01:04:17Z Bike: well it's in the glossary
2018-03-22T01:04:27Z onion: Bike: nil ?
2018-03-22T01:04:42Z Bike: yeah 4 is not foo and it's not 17
2018-03-22T01:04:45Z Bike: so it's not of that type
2018-03-22T01:04:46Z Bike: obviously
2018-03-22T01:04:53Z onion: oh now i want to ask, what is a lisp "object" ? CLOS ?
2018-03-22T01:05:00Z Bike: anything
2018-03-22T01:05:03Z Bike: 4 is an object
2018-03-22T01:05:20Z onion: are atoms objects? or when are atoms not objects or vice versa ?
2018-03-22T01:05:35Z Bike: atoms are objects
2018-03-22T01:05:38Z Bike: non atoms are objects
2018-03-22T01:05:45Z Bike: anything you can pass to a function is an object
2018-03-22T01:06:23Z vtomole: I thought only cons cells are objects. Well, you learn new things everyday.
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2018-03-22T01:06:52Z onion: i felt that objects were instances of classes, at the least
2018-03-22T01:07:01Z vtomole: Oh wait. That actually makes a lot of sense.
2018-03-22T01:07:25Z Bike: everything is an instance of a class
2018-03-22T01:07:37Z Bike: (class-of 4) => #<BUILT-IN-CLASS INTEGER> or so
2018-03-22T01:07:48Z vtomole: Bike: objects are data?
2018-03-22T01:08:04Z Bike: don't overthink it
2018-03-22T01:08:16Z onion: hehe
2018-03-22T01:08:27Z onion: i read that objects were types but types werent objects. or somethign like this
2018-03-22T01:08:40Z onion: that is, hmm... not sure how to say it , but it was one-way
2018-03-22T01:08:55Z onion: oh it was about not being able to defmethod on a non-CLOS type
2018-03-22T01:10:07Z Bike: clos deals in classes, not types
2018-03-22T01:10:15Z Bike: classes are also types, but there are types that are not classes
2018-03-22T01:10:33Z onion: =/ hmmm
2018-03-22T01:11:08Z onion: how are there types that are not classes, if 'everything is an instance of a class' ??
2018-03-22T01:11:28Z sjl: The thing that helped me most with types was when I started thinking about them as sets of values.
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2018-03-22T01:12:04Z pillton: onion: (typep 1 '(integer -10 -1))
2018-03-22T01:12:26Z sjl: E.g. the type designated by `(integer 1 10)` is the set of integers from 1 to 10.  The type designated by `(or integer list)` is the set of all integers unioned with the set of all lists.
2018-03-22T01:12:39Z rme: Yes, a CL type is a set of objects.   It is very useful to keep that in mind.
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2018-03-22T01:13:50Z sjl: When you make a class, Lisp also helpfully defines a type for you with the name of the class, which means "the set of objects that are instances of this class (or a subclass of it)"
2018-03-22T01:14:13Z sjl: But it does muddy the waters if you're not used to thinking of types as sets of objects.
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2018-03-22T01:15:14Z vtomole: clhs integer
2018-03-22T01:15:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm
2018-03-22T01:16:42Z Bike: also conveniently explains why you can't specialize methods on types, because types don't have enough structure for ordering.
2018-03-22T01:17:12Z didi: Bike: Ah, nice.
2018-03-22T01:17:34Z sjl: Thinking of them as sets also makes subtypes and supertypes easier to understand.  E.g. bit is a subtype of integer because the set {0 1} is a subset of the set of all integers.
2018-03-22T01:18:31Z Zhivago: Beyond which, as I finally realized, specializing on type is fundamentally wrong.
2018-03-22T01:18:40Z sjl: Right, how do you order the sets {0 1} and {1 2}?  Which is "more specific"?
2018-03-22T01:21:49Z onion: sjl: yeah, i ve been mentioning deftype a few times this week. i didnt know CL had that !
2018-03-22T01:21:56Z sjl: This also demystifies the Haskell/Scala "when is a particular function type a subtype of another" that takes blog posts like https://www.stephanboyer.com/post/132/what-are-covariance-and-contravariance to explain
2018-03-22T01:22:40Z pillton: Zhivago: Because it has no ordering?
2018-03-22T01:22:53Z onion: sjl: and ahh i see, that makes sense.
2018-03-22T01:23:01Z Bike: sjl: not that cl function types have subtyping...
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2018-03-22T01:23:32Z sjl: Bike: I mean, they *have* it, the language just can't *tell* you they have it :)
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2018-03-22T01:24:02Z Bike: the way function types are defined, they're not like other types in referring to a set of objects
2018-03-22T01:24:06Z Bike: so, you know. that's confusing
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2018-03-22T01:24:53Z sjl: (function (vector) integer) is a subtype of (function (string) number) because it accepts a superset of the arguments, and returns a subset of the results
2018-03-22T01:25:22Z sjl: Is (function (vector) integer) not "the set of all functions that accept a single argument, which is a vector, and return an integer result"?
2018-03-22T01:25:34Z Bike: no
2018-03-22T01:25:41Z Bike: a function type just says that calls to this thing have so and so types
2018-03-22T01:26:05Z Bike: like if foo is declared to be a (function (vector) integer), that's like rewriting (foo bar) as (the integer (foo (the vector bar)))
2018-03-22T01:26:19Z onion: :O
2018-03-22T01:27:03Z sjl: clhs function
2018-03-22T01:27:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
2018-03-22T01:27:10Z sjl: dammit
2018-03-22T01:27:15Z sjl: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_fn.htm
2018-03-22T01:27:26Z sjl: >  list form of the function type-specifier can be used only for declaration and not for discrimination. Every element of this type is a function that accepts arguments of the types specified by the argj-types and returns values that are members of the types specified by value-type.
2018-03-22T01:27:28Z Bike: which means, say, that (except package restrictions) you could locally declare CAR to be of type (function (cons) t), even though (function (cons) t) is not a subtype of (function (list) t)
2018-03-22T01:28:23Z Bike: well, okay, it does phrase it in terms of set membership there
2018-03-22T01:28:31Z Bike: but the actual semantics don't involve set membership at all
2018-03-22T01:29:13Z sjl: CAR *is* a member of "the set of all functions that accept cons arguments and return t elements"
2018-03-22T01:29:29Z sjl: It also accepts things that aren't conses
2018-03-22T01:29:33Z sjl: well, one thing
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2018-03-22T01:30:56Z sjl: I think it hinges on whether you consider "accepts an argument of type X" to mean "accepts an argument of EXACTLY type X"
2018-03-22T01:31:04Z Bike: yeah.
2018-03-22T01:31:05Z sjl: Which, I don't think it does
2018-03-22T01:31:17Z Zhivago: Ah, not because of ordering, but because specializing on type gives you fundamentally incoherent semantics.
2018-03-22T01:31:23Z Bike: well, since you obviously can't actually use function types as a membership thing, it doesn't matter so much to me.
2018-03-22T01:31:26Z onion: ..
2018-03-22T01:31:47Z Bike: one time i thought too hard about this and decided that lisp types mean at least three different things that are mildly incompatible, which is why it's confusing.
2018-03-22T01:32:02Z Zhivago: It means that your operation is really multiple operations with different semantics which are conflated.
2018-03-22T01:32:06Z sjl: sure, yeah, whether the computer can actually *figure this stuff out* is a different story, and unfortunately the answer is usually no
2018-03-22T01:32:11Z onion: two things would be enough
2018-03-22T01:32:24Z onion: =/
2018-03-22T01:32:34Z Bike: i don't mean the compiler. i mean you can't do (typep foo '(function ...)). i'm not even sure what that would mean.
2018-03-22T01:32:45Z Zhivago: In contrast, if your function takes a single type, and dispatches based on implementation (i.e., class) then it should have coherent semantics.
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2018-03-22T01:33:06Z sjl: I said "computer", which should cover calling typep :)
2018-03-22T01:33:07Z pillton: Zhivago: Then you have issue with generic functions as well.
2018-03-22T01:33:14Z Bike: oops. i read "compiler".
2018-03-22T01:33:29Z Zhivago: Well, generic functions dispatch on class, which is good.
2018-03-22T01:33:39Z pillton: You are talking about semantics.
2018-03-22T01:33:55Z Bike: this entire channel has been talking about semantics for like an hour
2018-03-22T01:33:59Z Zhivago: They don't enforce coherent semantics, which is tricky.
2018-03-22T01:34:07Z pillton: The generic function name may return a symbol for a set of objects, or it could return a string for others.
2018-03-22T01:34:12Z sjl: (typep foo '(function (x) y)) would mean "is foo a function that accepts a single argument of type x, and returns a result of type y"
2018-03-22T01:34:13Z pillton: "name" sorry.
2018-03-22T01:34:24Z Zhivago: But they can be used well with a little discipline.
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2018-03-22T01:34:34Z pillton: Why can't dispatching on type then?
2018-03-22T01:34:35Z sjl: Which probably no current lisp can reliably answer.  But I don't think it's an unclear *question*.
2018-03-22T01:34:52Z Bike: well there's a question of what "accepts" means.
2018-03-22T01:35:05Z sjl: clhs accepts
2018-03-22T01:35:06Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for accepts.
2018-03-22T01:35:07Z Zhivago: You can certainly dispatch on type -- the problem is that if you're dispatching on type, you're doing bad things to semantics, so you probably shouldn't.
2018-03-22T01:35:08Z sjl: damn
2018-03-22T01:35:16Z Bike: welp pack it in out of ideas now
2018-03-22T01:35:24Z Bike: like you can have functions that do a few things and then later signal a type error
2018-03-22T01:36:06Z sjl: hm
2018-03-22T01:36:08Z sjl: > Every element of this type is a function that accepts arguments of the types specified by the argj-types and returns values that are members of the types specified by value-type.
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2018-03-22T01:36:30Z sjl: Wouldn't that mean that if it decided to signal an error, it wouldn't qualify?
2018-03-22T01:36:47Z sjl: Because if you signal an error you don't return a values that is a member of blah blah
2018-03-22T01:36:49Z Bike: well that just means it's returning a value of type nil, which
2018-03-22T01:37:10Z Zhivago: Probably mean 'non-local transfer' since signaling doesn't exit the function.
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2018-03-22T01:37:25Z onion: may as well make a class in order to dispatch on a 'type' ?
2018-03-22T01:37:26Z Zhivago: In which case, you're not returning anything since you skipped the return bit.
2018-03-22T01:37:43Z Zhivago: onion: Why do you want to dispatch on a type?
2018-03-22T01:38:33Z onion: ppl been asking, just doing my part in the discussion
2018-03-22T01:39:16Z Bike: and yeah, you can have restartable errors and stuff
2018-03-22T01:39:30Z Bike: function types... are a social construct
2018-03-22T01:39:55Z sjl: Yeah, if you start thinking about conditions things get tricky
2018-03-22T01:40:12Z Zhivago: I don't think it does -- that's all just under non-local transfer.
2018-03-22T01:40:24Z Zhivago: Since it doesn't return, the return type doesn't apply.
2018-03-22T01:40:26Z sjl: But what is the type of OPEN?
2018-03-22T01:40:41Z sjl: For any given inputs, it can fail (e.g. if you don't have permission to open the file)
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2018-03-22T01:41:41Z sjl: You could just ignore any case that fails, and say "those don't contribute to the type".  I suppose that's fairly reasonable.
2018-03-22T01:41:45Z Zhivago: It returns a stream or nil.
2018-03-22T01:41:55Z Zhivago: Or does not return.
2018-03-22T01:42:13Z Zhivago: The does not return obviously doesn't affect the return type.
2018-03-22T01:42:27Z Bike: the concern is the argument types, yeah? return type is doable
2018-03-22T01:42:30Z sjl: Right, "does not return" isn't really captured in the current CL function type.  Maybe we need an extra parameter
2018-03-22T01:42:53Z Bike: usually that's what nil means
2018-03-22T01:43:00Z sjl: Well
2018-03-22T01:43:01Z Bike: cl:error is a (function junk nil) on sbcl
2018-03-22T01:43:02Z sjl: "might not return"
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2018-03-22T01:43:09Z sjl: Yeah
2018-03-22T01:43:14Z sjl: But OPEN sometimes returns things
2018-03-22T01:43:22Z sjl: so it can't have a return type of nil
2018-03-22T01:43:25Z Zhivago: All functions might not return, generally.
2018-03-22T01:44:12Z sjl: It's probably reasonable to say "any code path that doesn't return anything has no effect on the type of the function"
2018-03-22T01:44:31Z Bike: well, what do you want to use the type for?
2018-03-22T01:44:45Z Zhivago: I think it's clear if you say 'return type'.
2018-03-22T01:44:48Z sjl: It would be nice to be able to run subtypep on function types.
2018-03-22T01:45:03Z Bike: for what?
2018-03-22T01:45:07Z Bike: i'm not disagreeing, just asking
2018-03-22T01:45:16Z Bike: right now, function types are only used for optimization
2018-03-22T01:45:58Z sjl: adding `(check-type fn (function (t) t)` to something like mapcar, for example
2018-03-22T01:46:14Z sjl: so you could check that the person actually passed a function that takes one parameter and returns something
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2018-03-22T01:46:26Z sjl: mapcar is a ridiculous example, but hey
2018-03-22T01:46:47Z Bike: you could also pass a function with a rest parameter or something, no?
2018-03-22T01:47:43Z Bike: guess you could consider (function (&optional t)) a subtype of (function (t)), cos it accepts more argument (lists)
2018-03-22T01:47:46Z sjl: sure.  (function (t &rest) t) is a subtype of (function (t) t) because it accepts one parameter (and also possibly mroe)
2018-03-22T01:47:57Z sjl: Right, now we're back to "accepts" :)
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2018-03-22T01:48:51Z sjl: Or, e.g. I have a function in my project Euler repo called SUMMATION that takes a sequence and sums it, and it takes a :key argument.  That :key function should be a subtype of (function (t) number).
2018-03-22T01:48:58Z Bike: well this limited accepts is easier, it's whether the argument list is accepted by the lambda list, in the sense of acceptability defined by the lambda list rules etc
2018-03-22T01:49:40Z sjl: Though I suppose checking the return type is a bit restrictive.
2018-03-22T01:50:05Z sjl: Because #'car is a perfectly valid key when you know all the elements start with a number, but its return type isn't a subtype of number.
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2018-03-22T01:50:44Z smokeink: (= (+ 37 (sb-vm::get-lisp-obj-address  #'car)) (sb-vm::function-raw-address  'CAR)) ;==> T . In sbcl what's the difference between get-lisp-obj-address and function-raw-address ?
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2018-03-22T01:51:05Z Bike: obviously the type of car should be understood as null -> null | forall A (cons A T) -> A instead
2018-03-22T01:51:24Z onion: ..
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2018-03-22T01:52:25Z Bike: smokeink: this seems like an #sbcl question. but it looks like function-raw-address is used for static linking, so it might be the actual entry point and not the closure words or whatever the hell
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2018-03-22T01:59:37Z parjanya: the fright lisp sometimes gives me reminds me of when I was learning Latin, but it’s a little worse ; )
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2018-03-22T02:04:30Z rme: crede quod habes, et habes
2018-03-22T02:07:58Z parjanya: nescio eam sententiam... quis sic scripsit?
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2018-03-22T02:17:19Z Zhivago: Well, it's understandable when you consider that most other languages have been evolving toward a common consensus on code appearance.
2018-03-22T02:17:59Z Zhivago: Lisp has ignored that in order to emphasize ad hoc macros, which other languages have also been evolving away from.
2018-03-22T02:18:20Z onion: hrrm
2018-03-22T02:18:23Z Zhivago: So in that regard it can be considered a large step backward.
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2018-03-22T02:48:08Z johnnymacs: So lets say I have a package called foo and in foo I have a funtion called car and cdr. And I have another package which uses common-lisp and uses bar. I want to use the bar package with car and cdr but my foo package only uses cl.
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2018-03-22T02:48:40Z johnnymacs: So I want to pass data between packages and layer a hierarchy of namespace priority
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2018-03-22T02:54:26Z Bike: what is bar
2018-03-22T02:54:53Z Zhivago: Shadowing import?
2018-03-22T02:55:54Z johnnymacs: (defun bar () (turtle))
2018-03-22T02:56:09Z johnnymacs: (defun turtle () (turtle2))
2018-03-22T02:56:43Z smokeink: (in-package :foo) (bars_package::bar)
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2018-03-22T02:59:46Z johnnymacs: What does :: do
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2018-03-22T03:01:26Z smokeink: package_name::symbol_in_that_package
2018-03-22T03:01:40Z smokeink: with :: you can access any symbol from any package
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2018-03-22T03:02:22Z parjanya: Zhivago: a step outside, I would say
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2018-03-22T03:06:07Z smokeink: (cl::car (cl::list  1 2)) ==>1    , and since 'car and 'list are external to the package CL you can use : instead of ::
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2018-03-22T03:24:49Z johnnymacs: Yeah I get it now
2018-03-22T03:24:52Z johnnymacs: Took me a minute
2018-03-22T03:26:05Z johnnymacs: The reason I wanted to use packages is to get away with short function names but then you end up having a long package name
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2018-03-22T03:31:37Z pierpa: if long function names bother you, then maybe you are not using a good editor?
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2018-03-22T03:36:00Z johnnymacs: When writing object oriented code one needs to get sub objects very often which is why getting a subobject is just . in most object oriented languages
2018-03-22T03:37:05Z johnnymacs: no w8 I figured out how 2 do it
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2018-03-22T03:38:41Z pierpa: do you know about WITH-SLOTS and WITH-ACCESSORS ?
2018-03-22T03:39:33Z johnnymacs: (defun dot (table &rest args) (while (not (equal 0 (length args))) (setvar table (gethash (pop args) table))))
2018-03-22T03:39:36Z johnnymacs: wut?
2018-03-22T03:41:47Z loginoob: what are some good common lisp blogs for newbies?
2018-03-22T03:42:08Z pierpa: and instead of (EQUAL 0 (LENGTH X)), it is MUCH better to use (NULL X)
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2018-03-22T03:42:30Z johnnymacs: loginoob: one really friendly place is reddit.com/r/lisp
2018-03-22T03:42:46Z johnnymacs: pierpa: thanks didn't think of that
2018-03-22T03:43:06Z pierpa: loginoob: good for what? If it is for learning, there are several good and free books available
2018-03-22T03:43:26Z johnnymacs: gentle introduction to common lisp is a very good book to start with
2018-03-22T03:44:08Z loginoob: pierpa: I'm learning from book CL: gentle introduction to symbolic computation. Was wondering to read blogs in free time
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2018-03-22T03:44:16Z loginoob: just for fun
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2018-03-22T03:44:52Z pierpa: ok, then I dont know
2018-03-22T03:45:12Z pierpa: there was a planet lisp, but I don't remember if it's still active
2018-03-22T03:46:06Z pierpa: give a look here and see: http://planet.lisp.org
2018-03-22T03:46:09Z loginoob: also in my emacs when i type 'this 'this 'true it return last input i.e TRUE . Shouldn't it return all three
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2018-03-22T03:46:57Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-03-22T03:47:33Z loginoob: SBCL in termianl returns all three input
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2018-03-22T03:49:04Z pierpa: as far as I remember, yes, it should print all three results. At the moment I cannot check.
2018-03-22T03:49:14Z loginoob: ok
2018-03-22T03:49:56Z Bike: probably just a quirk of how emacs interprets input
2018-03-22T03:50:28Z Bike: it executes all three but only returns the last, it seems
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2018-03-22T03:51:59Z onion: *** IELM error ***  More than one sexp in input
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2018-03-22T03:55:38Z pierpa: ielm is for elisp, no?
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2018-03-22T04:00:29Z loke: pierpa: Yes.
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2018-03-22T04:22:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-22T04:25:25Z beach: johnnymacs: If you often want to the slots ("subobject"s) of an object, then your code is badly structured.  Slots are an implementation detail that should be used (if at all) only by the module that defines the class.  Instead, such details should be hidden behind a consistent "protocol" (an extension of the concept of an "interface" in other languages) consisting of classes and (often generic) functions.
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2018-03-22T05:25:01Z smokeink: I want to replace the 2nd code here https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Eratosthenes#Common_Lisp , with a documented version http://pastecode.ru/19973/  . Please criticize the code on the 2nd link, point out all the stylistic issues and help me to fix it.
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2018-03-22T06:36:13Z johnnymacs: What is wrong with this? (defun gethashes (x &rest y) (loop while y do (setf x (gethash (pop y) x))))
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2018-03-22T06:53:51Z pierpa_: johnnymacs: please describe in plain English what are you trying to accomplish
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2018-03-22T06:55:30Z pierpa_: We can't say what's wrong without knowing what's "right" to you
2018-03-22T06:59:05Z beach: johnnymacs: Perhaps you are confused about how Common Lisp passes arguments.  Did you expect the first argument in the call to your function to be modified as a result of the call?
2018-03-22T06:59:07Z johnnymacs: well I want to take a set of nested hash tables and search through them with keys
2018-03-22T06:59:49Z pierpa_: Maybe you just forgot to return x?
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2018-03-22T07:00:21Z johnnymacs: only way I know how to return on a loop is with progn but sure
2018-03-22T07:00:48Z pierpa_: Put "x" after the loop
2018-03-22T07:01:19Z beach: johnnymacs: What did you expect to happen to the values that you give to X in this function?
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2018-03-22T07:02:05Z pierpa_: or equivalently, add a "finally (return x)" clause to the loop
2018-03-22T07:05:03Z beach: johnnymacs: Did you see my remark you your desire for a compact syntax for accessing slots (what you call "subobject"s)?
2018-03-22T07:05:19Z beach: remark about your.
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2018-03-22T08:05:52Z johnnymacs: Why is it whenever I try to define a variable it always tells me the variable is undefined
2018-03-22T08:06:19Z jackdaniel: how do you define it?
2018-03-22T08:06:25Z k-hos: are you attempting to do so in function scope?
2018-03-22T08:06:49Z johnnymacs: (setq foo (lambda () (make-hash-table)))
2018-03-22T08:06:56Z johnnymacs: oops not that
2018-03-22T08:07:34Z jackdaniel: you define variables with DEFVAR, like that: (defvar *foo* (lambda () (make-hash-table)))
2018-03-22T08:07:45Z jackdaniel: or DEFPARAMETER
2018-03-22T08:08:00Z jackdaniel: to know the difference check out clhs or read pcl
2018-03-22T08:08:07Z jackdaniel: you may look for these symbols in l1sp.org
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2018-03-22T08:23:55Z pierpa_: Why write (lambda () (make-hash-table)) instead of simply #'make-hash-table ? Ok, there's a small difference, but does it matters in this case?
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2018-03-22T08:26:31Z johnnymacs: (defun gethashes (x &rest y) (loop while y do (setf x (gethash (pop y) x)) (return x)))
2018-03-22T08:27:31Z johnnymacs: what I should really do is a flatmap
2018-03-22T08:27:43Z pierpa_: No. I wrote above what to do
2018-03-22T08:27:51Z johnnymacs: which was?
2018-03-22T08:28:19Z pierpa_: Scroll up. I have not written a lot it's easy to finf
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2018-03-22T08:28:33Z pierpa_: *find
2018-03-22T08:28:39Z johnnymacs: I think you were wrong.
2018-03-22T08:28:44Z pierpa_: Ok
2018-03-22T08:29:02Z pierpa_: It's your right
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2018-03-22T08:29:24Z beach: johnnymacs: You don't listen much to advice, do you?
2018-03-22T08:29:58Z pierpa_ is now known as pierpa
2018-03-22T08:31:09Z johnnymacs: If the advice seems to be a corret way to solve my problem that I can understand then I follow it
2018-03-22T08:31:23Z johnnymacs: Somtimes people have the correct answer but they refuse to explain it in simple terms
2018-03-22T08:31:40Z johnnymacs: or for example some people want to have a conversation with you before they will tell you what they think the answer is
2018-03-22T08:31:58Z beach: johnnymacs: It would be very helpful if you acknowledged that you received the advice, and if you don't intend to following, indicate why.
2018-03-22T08:31:59Z pierpa: Simpler than "add x after the loop"?
2018-03-22T08:33:19Z beach: johnnymacs: "WHILE Y" indicates to the reader that Y is a Boolean variable.  In reality, here it is a list.  The expectations of the reader are thus violated.
2018-03-22T08:33:42Z jackdaniel: johnnymacs: if you are not willing to listen to advices you get (without saying why), then you simply waste people time by asking questions.
2018-03-22T08:33:48Z beach: johnnymacs: It would be much better to use LOOP FOR ELEMENT IN Y ...
2018-03-22T08:34:37Z beach: johnnymacs: This solution has the additional advantage that you won't modify the parameter Y, which makes debugging easier.
2018-03-22T08:35:28Z beach: johnnymacs: I am attempting a few more times to give you advice.  But, pretty soon, I'll give up unless I see some reaction.
2018-03-22T08:37:34Z johnnymacs: (defun gethashes (x &rest y)(loop for z in y (setf x (gethash z x)) x))
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2018-03-22T08:38:43Z beach: johnnymacs: That would probably give you syntax errors for LOOP clauses.
2018-03-22T08:39:03Z |3b|: probably should handle missing values better, instead of continuing search with nil
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2018-03-22T08:39:35Z pierpa: That's not after the loop, if you changed your mind about my advice
2018-03-22T08:39:37Z |3b|: or maybe it errors anyway, nevermind
2018-03-22T08:40:14Z johnnymacs: I donpt see how I can put it after the loop if defun takes three arguments
2018-03-22T08:40:29Z pierpa: It doesn't
2018-03-22T08:40:33Z johnnymacs: oh
2018-03-22T08:40:37Z beach: johnnymacs: Who told you it does.
2018-03-22T08:40:42Z pierpa: Why you think so?
2018-03-22T08:40:43Z beach: johnnymacs: You need to read the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-03-22T08:40:45Z johnnymacs: nobody told me
2018-03-22T08:40:49Z johnnymacs: It is illegible
2018-03-22T08:41:00Z beach: johnnymacs: It is not because nobody told you that it isn't true.
2018-03-22T08:41:05Z johnnymacs: I might as well try and read reformed chinese
2018-03-22T08:41:24Z johnnymacs: It would take me years to parse is what I am saying
2018-03-22T08:41:27Z beach: johnnymacs: If you can't read a specification, perhaps you should choose some other activity.
2018-03-22T08:41:30Z johnnymacs: not very good documentation. more of a specification
2018-03-22T08:41:51Z johnnymacs: (defun gethashes (x &rest y)(loop for z in y (setf x (gethash z x))) x)
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2018-03-22T08:42:03Z pierpa: I concur with Johnny in this case
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2018-03-22T08:43:10Z johnnymacs: I will probably never read the common lisp hyperspec as long as I live
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2018-03-22T08:43:16Z johnnymacs: nor practical common lisp
2018-03-22T08:43:20Z johnnymacs: nor gentle introduction to lisp
2018-03-22T08:43:46Z pierpa: Ok. Then beach was right
2018-03-22T08:43:55Z jackdaniel: then helping you is not worth our time (at least mine)
2018-03-22T08:44:11Z johnnymacs: I've learned alot from your help so far
2018-03-22T08:44:41Z beach: johnnymacs: Some of us help in the hopes that you will become autonomous one day.  What you are saying now is that it will never happen.
2018-03-22T08:44:56Z johnnymacs: What does this mean "autonomous"
2018-03-22T08:45:13Z beach: Being able to read the specification yourself, rather than having people here read it for you.
2018-03-22T08:45:24Z jackdaniel: that doesn't mean you deserve help. if you need tutor who will explain things to you (without doing your homework), you probably need to hire somebody
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2018-03-22T08:46:18Z johnnymacs: The common lisp hyperspec is like a cheap rag compared to a document like gentle introduction to lisp
2018-03-22T08:46:31Z antoszka: erm wat
2018-03-22T08:47:05Z beach: johnnymacs: Good luck to you.
2018-03-22T08:47:10Z antoszka: the hyperspec is a wonderful document, just looks a little 90-s
2018-03-22T08:47:42Z johnnymacs: I think the hyperspec is the single worst piece of documentation I've read. I've read documentation ten lines long that taught more.
2018-03-22T08:47:44Z pierpa: It is a spec. Not a manual for learning, though.
2018-03-22T08:48:05Z johnnymacs: Precicely, which is why you shoudn't linkt o it as a teaching tool
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2018-03-22T08:48:50Z antoszka: Does anybody suggests it as a *teaching* tool?
2018-03-22T08:49:08Z antoszka: It's a reference for expected behaviour (including unspecified behaviour).
2018-03-22T08:49:19Z antoszka: And it does that very well.
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2018-03-22T08:49:58Z johnnymacs: I think you're just playing with words there.
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2018-03-22T08:50:10Z johnnymacs: You clearly use the hyperspec as a tool to teach lisp.
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2018-03-22T08:50:32Z jackdaniel: no, we use it as a reference, so people can learn what they nead to know
2018-03-22T08:51:05Z jackdaniel: you see, nobody here is a teacher (at least doesn't spend time on IRC to fulfill teaching duties, just to hang around with people with similar interests)
2018-03-22T08:51:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Very well put.
2018-03-22T08:51:41Z jackdaniel: thanks
2018-03-22T08:52:21Z johnnymacs: if you didn't want to answer my question then why would you half assedly participate in answering them
2018-03-22T08:52:32Z antoszka: johnnymacs: I'm sure you had suggestions on *teaching* books (since you mention Gentle Intro and PCL which are both excellent books).
2018-03-22T08:52:32Z Shinmera: beach: Fwiw in my experience people that don't start out autonomous hardly ever become autonomous.
2018-03-22T08:52:52Z beach: Shinmera: Interesting observation.
2018-03-22T08:53:36Z Shinmera: At least when it comes to learning, rather than just performing routine.
2018-03-22T08:53:52Z antoszka: johnnymacs: I only just look at the channel, I'm not in-any-part-assedly participating, I'm not in fact participating at all. Just wrote my opinion on the Hyperspec.
2018-03-22T08:53:58Z jackdaniel: 1) being polite is something many people do; 2) we want to help if someone is willing to help himself - more lisp hackers = better; 3) I'm 100% sure you haven't read http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
2018-03-22T08:53:59Z antoszka: just looked*
2018-03-22T08:54:38Z beach: Shinmera: I think I know of some exceptions, but that doesn't falsify the general statement, of course.  I still think it is an interesting observation, and I'll think about it myself.
2018-03-22T08:55:41Z johnnymacs: jackdaniel: that seems like alot of preparation simply to type some characters and then put a question mark at the end.
2018-03-22T08:56:09Z jackdaniel: yes, respecting other people is not an easy task
2018-03-22T08:58:38Z johnnymacs: I don't know I just feel like you guys have a high success rate at convincing people not to use the common lisp variant of a turing machine.
2018-03-22T08:59:23Z pierpa: It's a desperate case
2018-03-22T08:59:27Z Shinmera: I feel like you're very disrespectful about the courtesy people have given you here.
2018-03-22T08:59:54Z johnnymacs: I think most of the people in here are very courteous to me.
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2018-03-22T09:32:03Z johnnymacs: (defun gethashes (x &rest y)(loop for z in y do (setf x (gethash z x))) x)
2018-03-22T09:32:10Z johnnymacs: I keep getting an error that says undefined function
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2018-03-22T09:36:19Z pierpa:   I'm sure the error you get says more than this
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2018-03-22T10:23:10Z myrkraverk: How do I check my asdf version?
2018-03-22T10:23:24Z easye: (asdf:asdf-version)
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2018-03-22T10:24:25Z myrkraverk: thanks -- and how did I miss that while grepping for version in the manual?
2018-03-22T10:25:15Z myrkraverk: Probably did not grep enough.
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2018-03-22T10:27:09Z easye: I am not sure that this function is in the ASDF manual.  I probably found it by inspecting the exported symbols of the ASDF package via M-x slime-apropos-package
2018-03-22T10:27:38Z myrkraverk: I see.
2018-03-22T10:27:43Z myrkraverk: I have another question now;
2018-03-22T10:27:45Z myrkraverk: what does
2018-03-22T10:27:46Z myrkraverk: Just performed compiling #<MADEIRA-PORT "linedit" "ports" "ccl"> but failed to mark it done
2018-03-22T10:27:48Z myrkraverk: mean?
2018-03-22T10:28:03Z myrkraverk: When I try to start sbcl with linedit in my .sbclrc
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2018-03-22T10:30:08Z easye: It seems to indicate that ASDF attempted  the compilation of the "ccl.lisp" source unit, but failed in some way.  If you are running under SBCL, it is probably difficult to compile the presumably CCL specific code in that file.
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2018-03-22T10:31:03Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I'm running SBCL and trying to use linedit.
2018-03-22T10:31:43Z myrkraverk: Why would it try to compile the CCL code in the first place?
2018-03-22T10:32:25Z easye: I have no experience with linedit, so I cannot help you on that.  You have the source: examine the ASDF system definitions.  Look for assumptions about what feature conditionals are active under different implementations.
2018-03-22T10:33:31Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: I've witnessed ASDF3's :if-feature being buggy, so if thre is :if-feature "ccl" you may try replacing it with good old #+ccl before (:file …)
2018-03-22T10:34:38Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: ok, I'll try that later, when my primary task is done.
2018-03-22T10:35:50Z antoszka: I think linedit has been broken with recent sbcls.
2018-03-22T10:36:04Z antoszka: Hasn't worked for me for the past 2 or 3 releases.
2018-03-22T10:36:15Z antoszka: I hadn't had the time to investigate the root cause.
2018-03-22T10:36:19Z antoszka: myrkraverk: ^
2018-03-22T10:37:53Z myrkraverk: thanks.
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2018-03-22T10:41:37Z antoszka: I'd be happy myself to know if somebody has investigated broken linedit on recent sbcl and has a solution :)
2018-03-22T10:43:16Z scymtym: iirc, linedit uses madeira-port to conditionally include certain files based on the lisp implementation (it probably predates :if-feature). madeira-port doesn't work right with recent ASDF versions. i seem to recall that somebody is already working in this, though
2018-03-22T10:44:20Z antoszka: ah, okay
2018-03-22T10:44:41Z antoszka: that'd be cool, I really like using linedit as a quick handy alternative to firing up emacs + slime
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2018-03-22T11:21:27Z myrkraverk: I'm actually a bit more likely to make a new frontend with cffi and libtecla than fix linedit; at least if fixing linedit is hard.
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2018-03-22T11:37:56Z jackdaniel 've seen libecl.a :-)
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2018-03-22T11:51:17Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: you mean the innards of it?  I haven't dared to look at them, myself.
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2018-03-22T12:16:40Z jackdaniel: no, just libtecla looks *similar* to libecl.a
2018-03-22T12:16:49Z jackdaniel: completely unrelated projects
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2018-03-22T15:14:43Z khrbt: myrkraverk: I have been sitting on this for a while.  https://github.com/khirbat/linedit.git
2018-03-22T15:14:54Z antoszka: oh cool
2018-03-22T15:15:02Z antoszka: did you get it to work? :)
2018-03-22T15:15:33Z khrbt: yes, clone it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects and try it out
2018-03-22T15:15:43Z antoszka: cool, I'll do that later today, thx
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2018-03-22T17:41:06Z stacksmith: Greetings. Need advice:  at the end of my function I call a function that returns multiple values.  I need to add an extra value at the end.  Is there a way of doing that without m-v-b and a new values form?
2018-03-22T17:42:45Z schweers: clhs multiple-value-list
2018-03-22T17:42:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm
2018-03-22T17:42:50Z Bike: i guess you could do (multiple-value-call #'values (call) other-value). but i would rate this as pretty weird
2018-03-22T17:42:51Z schweers: might be your friend
2018-03-22T17:42:55Z Shinmera: m-v-l v-l, and append, I guess.
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2018-03-22T17:43:17Z dlowe: (values-list (append (multiple-values-list (func)) (list myarg))
2018-03-22T17:43:25Z stacksmith: Any way I try it's cumbersome...
2018-03-22T17:43:44Z Shinmera: That's why macros exist.
2018-03-22T17:43:51Z stacksmith: True.
2018-03-22T17:44:14Z sjl: A macro that expands into what Bike said would be what I'd do
2018-03-22T17:44:45Z onion: (defmacro m-v-l (&rest ..
2018-03-22T17:45:06Z stacksmith: I was hoping that I missed something simple.  Yeah, I can macro like a big boy.
2018-03-22T17:45:33Z Shinmera: Values are immutable, so there's nothing you can do except unpack and repack.
2018-03-22T17:46:04Z Shinmera: values aren't even first-class!
2018-03-22T17:46:23Z stacksmith: Since all this is happening at the end of the function, I thought there may be some magic way to append more...
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2018-03-22T17:47:37Z stacksmith: Thanks y'all.
2018-03-22T17:48:43Z stacksmith tips his 256-gallon hat
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2018-03-22T19:40:34Z fourier: how to use keywords defined in trivial-features in asd file?
2018-03-22T19:41:04Z fourier: *features*
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2018-03-22T19:51:22Z fourier: also a question about asdf and quicklisp: if I have a system specified in defsystem-depends-on, and perform ql:quickload of my system, the system defined in defsystem-depends-on by some reason is not downloaded by ql
2018-03-22T19:52:24Z Xach: That is a known limitation of quicklisp.
2018-03-22T19:52:37Z Xach: It does not automatically fetch things during the loading of a system definition.
2018-03-22T19:53:02Z fourier: ahha I see
2018-03-22T19:53:25Z Bike: is (defstruct foo foos1 (foos2 foos1)) legal? i thought it was but now i think i was mistaken
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2018-03-22T20:01:25Z sjl: what would that even do?
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2018-03-22T20:03:51Z sjl: clhs defstruct
2018-03-22T20:03:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
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2018-03-22T20:03:59Z sjl: > The symbols which name the slots must not be used by the implementation as the names for the lambda variables in the constructor function, since one or more of those symbols might have been proclaimed special or might be defined as the name of a constant variable.
2018-03-22T20:05:03Z sjl: If you're expecting foos2 to have an initform of foos1, and that that would evaluate to the keyword you passed for foos1, I think that bit of the spec explicitly forbids that
2018-03-22T20:08:53Z sjl: interestingly, sbcl and ccl DO use the symbols as the parameter names if you specify a BOA constructor
2018-03-22T20:08:55Z sjl: (defstruct (foo (:constructor f (slot))) slot)
2018-03-22T20:09:07Z sjl: Which I think violates that bit of the spec.
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2018-03-22T20:10:56Z sjl: well, maybe not.  The BOA lambda list page goes into a lot more detail.
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2018-03-22T20:16:23Z fourier: please recommend some simple documentation generation system from CL sources. I need something what can extract docstrings from functions and generate github markdown document. could write something myself but maybe something exists already
2018-03-22T20:16:45Z rme: I think there are about a dozen such systems.
2018-03-22T20:17:32Z sjl: Shinmera has something.  I rolled my own like most people.
2018-03-22T20:18:24Z fourier: yep thats why i'm asking for recommendations :)
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2018-03-22T20:19:31Z sjl: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/lisp-document-generation-apps
2018-03-22T20:20:33Z Bike: sjl: foos1 as initform is what i meant, yes
2018-03-22T20:20:39Z rme: I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but one option would be to write actual documentation, rather than fiddling around trying to generate it from docstrings and introspection.
2018-03-22T20:20:43Z rme: A radical notion, I know.
2018-03-22T20:21:05Z fourier: i have it already
2018-03-22T20:21:16Z fourier: i want to extract it and to place to readme
2018-03-22T20:21:22Z Bike: the page on defstruct says the initforms are to be evaluated in the lxeical environment of the defstruct, which pretty much forbids that
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2018-03-22T20:21:27Z Bike: just wanted to sanity check
2018-03-22T20:21:51Z sjl: Bike: yeah, I don't think that can work for the keyword constructors because they're supposed to use other symbols as the lambda arguments
2018-03-22T20:23:24Z Bike: i guess not doing that explains why my code has worked when i tried it
2018-03-22T20:23:29Z Bike: i should fix it i spose
2018-03-22T20:23:38Z sjl: Bike: It apparently works fine if you use a boa constructor though
2018-03-22T20:23:40Z sjl: (defstruct (foo (:constructor f (slot1))) slot1 (slot2 (1- slot1)))
2018-03-22T20:23:42Z sjl: (f 1) ; => #S(FOO :SLOT1 1 :SLOT2 0)
2018-03-22T20:23:51Z Bike: wait, so that is legal?
2018-03-22T20:24:03Z sjl: I'm not 100% sure
2018-03-22T20:24:27Z sjl: clhs Boa Lambda Lists
2018-03-22T20:24:35Z sjl: clhs 3.4.6
2018-03-22T20:24:35Z specbot: Boa Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_df.htm
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2018-03-22T20:26:19Z Bike: well, i can just moave the initform into the lambda list anyway, since i use a boa
2018-03-22T20:26:31Z Bike: except that adds the wrinkle that i have :type function and no other default
2018-03-22T20:26:31Z Bike: bleh
2018-03-22T20:26:46Z sjl: > If no default value is supplied for an aux variable variable, the consequences are undefined if an attempt is later made to read the corresponding slot's value before a value is explicitly assigned. If such a slot has a :type option specified, this suppressed initialization does not imply a type mismatch situation; the declared type is only required to apply when the slot is finally assigned.
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2018-03-22T20:29:50Z Bike: so confusing.
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2018-03-22T20:35:43Z Bike: new question. if the clhs defines a function can an implementation have it be a generic function instead?
2018-03-22T20:35:52Z Bike: i mean, it's still a function, so not "instead"
2018-03-22T20:36:17Z _death: yes.. for example Gray stream protocol defines CLOSE as a generic function
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2018-03-22T20:36:28Z Bike: oh yeah.
2018-03-22T20:38:44Z Bike: thanks. sjl too
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2018-03-22T21:04:10Z k-stz: hey, I try to parse a formula like !A and generate ==> (not A). I'm stuck on how to approach this, do I use READ-CHAR or just convert it to a string? Problem arose when trying to parse formulas like: !(a -> b)
2018-03-22T21:05:52Z Bike: convert what to a string?
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2018-03-22T21:08:55Z k-stz: The Formula '!A' or '!(a -> b)' etc.
2018-03-22T21:09:45Z Bike: i mean, what kind of object is it.
2018-03-22T21:09:53Z Bike: i would think it would already be a string, and you're trying to parse it.
2018-03-22T21:09:57Z oleo: no
2018-03-22T21:10:56Z oleo: he obviously is unaware !a is just an unbound variable on the top-level repl
2018-03-22T21:11:11Z oleo: and otherwise '!a is an atom and a symbol
2018-03-22T21:11:21Z oleo: so he can't dissect the ! from it
2018-03-22T21:11:50Z k-stz: currently I read it in as a quoted list: '(a -> !b)
2018-03-22T21:12:16Z Bike: okay, yeah, probably don't do that.
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2018-03-22T21:13:40Z oleo: with "!a" he at least would have a chance....
2018-03-22T21:14:23Z k-stz: ok so I try this (prefixing "(a -> !b)"), yeah I see '!(a -> b) already fails
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2018-03-22T21:23:50Z stacksmith: k-stz: suggestion: make sure you understand Lisp pretty well before attempting to implement a compiler for another language.  Otherwise you will be in a world of pain.  You must pay special attention to the CL reader and its limitations, symbols and packages (in terms of how your syntax maps to CL)...
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2018-03-22T21:25:04Z stacksmith: It is essential to understand how macros and reader macros work.
2018-03-22T21:25:26Z stacksmith: Once you do, you may find your task trivial.  Or impossible.
2018-03-22T21:26:17Z stacksmith: Another suggestion: unless you really need a different syntax, stick with Lisp and save yourself a lot of trouble.
2018-03-22T21:26:45Z stacksmith: As in (not A) instead of !A.
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2018-03-22T21:32:24Z k-stz: stacksmith: thanks, I wanted to try a simple parser in lisp because I never tried it and hope to learn something. That felt like a good starting point
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2018-03-22T21:37:23Z stacksmith: k-stz: I do not mean to discourage, but I speak from personal experience of trying to do something similar when I started with Lisp.  It seemed like an easy enough task, but led to a serious smack-in-the-face realization of just how pathetically ignorant I was at the time.  It was a great experience but your appreciation of such things may be different.
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2018-03-22T21:43:51Z k-stz: stacksmith: I think I see your point, this already isn't as easy as a thought. No damage done, though. Seeing the first few problems makes me attentive to solutions, and I just might know where to look next
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2018-03-22T21:46:51Z stacksmith: k-stz: Another observation is that you can do it in a Lispy way, by using the Lisp reader, macros, etc.  or by parsing text, the way you'd probably do it in C or whatnot.  You will learn entirely different things.  Lisp is great for writing DSLs, but it is not a task for a novice.
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2018-03-22T21:51:05Z stacksmith: k-stz: Read 'On Lisp' - it is full of useful information about doing things like that, including an entire Prolog implementation in a few pages of code, and information about reader macros and regular macros.
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2018-03-22T22:00:51Z dim: just published an article where I quote Erik Naggum a lot
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2018-03-22T22:01:18Z k-stz: stacksmith: I have this book on my radar, I should also encounter this topic again in SICP soon. Thanks again o/
2018-03-22T22:01:22Z dim: is that considered ranting? harmful? I must admit I like reading his rants...
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2018-03-22T22:02:39Z k-stz: dim: are you asking if quoting rants is considered ranting?
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2018-03-22T22:05:13Z k-stz: I found what I read about Erik Naggum enjoyable as well, I'd say because he can articulate his opinions well and he touches on many things. It doesn't appear shallow
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2018-03-22T22:06:03Z Shinmera: While his writings are very insightful, they definitely often are inflammatory as well though.
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2018-03-22T22:09:35Z stacksmith: I learned a tremendous amount when I started out - by reading Naggum transcripts.  It was never boring, although somewhat painful on occasions.
2018-03-22T22:11:01Z dim: I edited out some parts...
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2018-03-22T22:11:33Z k-stz: dim: link to your article?
2018-03-22T22:11:36Z dim: https://tapoueh.org/blog/2018/03/object-relational-database-management-system/ if you're interested, comparing PostgreSQL type system / function overloading with CLOS generic functions
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2018-03-22T22:45:41Z Xach: cool
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2018-03-23T01:14:58Z johnnymacs: No matter what I do I keep getting the error undefined function
2018-03-23T01:15:15Z johnnymacs: (defun gethashes (x &rest y) (dolist (z y) (setf x (gethash z x))))
2018-03-23T01:16:31Z Bike: compiles for me
2018-03-23T01:16:42Z johnnymacs: It compiles for me too.
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2018-03-23T01:17:16Z johnnymacs: When I call it though I get an undefined function
2018-03-23T01:17:23Z Bike: Really? i get a type error
2018-03-23T01:17:27Z Bike: what function is it that's undefined?
2018-03-23T01:17:39Z johnnymacs: gethashes
2018-03-23T01:18:32Z Bike: you put the defun in your repl, and then the next line try to call it, and it doesn't work?
2018-03-23T01:18:52Z johnnymacs: Let me show you my next two lines
2018-03-23T01:18:58Z johnnymacs: (defvar foo (make-hash-table))
2018-03-23T01:18:58Z johnnymacs: (setf (gethashes foo "two") 2)
2018-03-23T01:19:13Z Bike: Are you sure the error doesn't say, undefined function, (setf gethashes)?
2018-03-23T01:19:32Z johnnymacs: Perhaps. I am not very used to sbcl error messages
2018-03-23T01:19:38Z Bike: well what does it say
2018-03-23T01:19:41Z Bike: like paste it literally
2018-03-23T01:20:39Z johnnymacs: sprunge is gone
2018-03-23T01:21:51Z stacksmith: The top line is a good start...
2018-03-23T01:22:03Z Bike: https://pastebin.com/eGgZcX0Q
2018-03-23T01:22:17Z Bike: it says "Undefined function: (SETF GETHASHES)"
2018-03-23T01:22:48Z stacksmith: Any other outcome would be surprising...
2018-03-23T01:23:26Z johnnymacs: I have no way to get the file to you it's in my virtual machine.
2018-03-23T01:23:42Z Bike: it doesn't matter, i just ran it myself
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2018-03-23T01:23:48Z Bike: to show you the error you are probably looking at
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2018-03-23T01:24:13Z johnnymacs: ;   Undefined function:
2018-03-23T01:24:14Z johnnymacs: ;     (SETF GETHASHES)
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2018-03-23T01:24:25Z Bike: see, there you go
2018-03-23T01:24:32Z Bike: so that's different from gethashes being undefined
2018-03-23T01:24:52Z Bike: gethashes is a function that gets a value out of some hash tables. it has no provision for writing into hash tables
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2018-03-23T01:25:05Z stacksmith: It's good to be reasonably precise, instead of "getting an error"
2018-03-23T01:25:06Z johnnymacs: how to write to a hash table
2018-03-23T01:25:07Z Bike: there is no way for the compiler to look at your loop and figure out an inverse procedure, see?
2018-03-23T01:25:41Z Bike: (setf (gethash key table) value) is how you put a value in a table
2018-03-23T01:26:02Z johnnymacs: What does (gethash key table) return
2018-03-23T01:26:17Z Bike: it doesn't. setf is not a function, it's a macro.
2018-03-23T01:26:28Z Bike: it analyzes the form (gethash key table) and macroexpands into something that writes into the table.
2018-03-23T01:26:36Z Bike: try (macroexpand-1 '(setf (gethash key table) value)).
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2018-03-23T01:29:50Z Bike: you can also try (macroexpand-1 '(setf (gethashes foo "two") 2)) to see why that didn't work out.
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2018-03-23T01:34:40Z Bike: if you're still thinking about pointers, keep in mind c has lvalues as a distinct concept. you can't get the address of a register variable but you can assign to it no problem.
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2018-03-23T01:35:36Z johnnymacs: (defun puthash (x y z) (sb-kernel:%puthash x y z))
2018-03-23T01:35:44Z johnnymacs: seems 2 work
2018-03-23T01:35:59Z Bike: sure, but %puthash is an internal function, and sbcl specific.
2018-03-23T01:36:06Z Bike: setf gethash is the right way to do it.
2018-03-23T01:36:10Z jasom: johnnymacs: you know how you can doo foo[bar] = baz in C, in this case SETF is like the = and gethash is like foo[bar]
2018-03-23T01:36:21Z johnnymacs: I could port the function to common lisp probably
2018-03-23T01:36:42Z Bike: sure. watch. (defun puthash (x y z) (setf (gethash x y) z))
2018-03-23T01:36:50Z johnnymacs: ah perfect
2018-03-23T01:37:10Z Bike: but using gethash means it works with other operators.
2018-03-23T01:37:21Z Bike: you can do (incf (gethash foo bar)), for instance, to increment a value in a hash table
2018-03-23T01:37:30Z Bike: incf works by using the same mechanism as setf gethash
2018-03-23T01:37:59Z jasom: or (setf (car (gethash x y) z) w)
2018-03-23T01:38:08Z stacksmith: johnnymacs: unlike forth, where cells are pointers and @ and ! read and write to them, in Lisp mentioning a variable fetches it by default.  setf sets it.  setf can set a lot of complicated forms like gethash.  You can also write a function to let setf know what to do with your gethashes.
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2018-03-23T01:47:23Z johnnymacs: It seems to me like gethashes is not returning the @ and the ! value
2018-03-23T01:48:54Z Bike: yeah cos lisp doesn't have pointers
2018-03-23T01:48:58Z Bike: which is what that says
2018-03-23T01:49:20Z johnnymacs: So you've hacked setf into behaving like pointers
2018-03-23T01:49:35Z Bike: no
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2018-03-23T01:49:46Z Bike: you can do assignments without having pointers
2018-03-23T01:49:51Z Bike: in C, as I gave you an example of
2018-03-23T01:50:16Z johnnymacs: In c you can get the pointer to anything
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2018-03-23T01:50:26Z Bike: you cannot.
2018-03-23T01:50:29Z johnnymacs: false
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2018-03-23T01:50:55Z rme: how about "register int i; int *p = &i"
2018-03-23T01:51:08Z johnnymacs: The string?
2018-03-23T01:51:10Z Bike: int main(void) { register int x; &x; return 0; }
2018-03-23T01:51:23Z Bike: error: address of register variable 'x' requested
2018-03-23T01:51:33Z johnnymacs: this is one reason why c is a poor language
2018-03-23T01:51:52Z Bike: because it lets you put things in registers?
2018-03-23T01:52:06Z johnnymacs: how can one have a pointer to a register?
2018-03-23T01:52:11Z Bike: indeed, you can't
2018-03-23T01:52:15Z Bike: and so, c doesn't let you
2018-03-23T01:52:25Z Bike: but doing x = 4 or something is fine
2018-03-23T01:52:27Z johnnymacs: Thats like saying c doesnt let you have a pointer to my cousin
2018-03-23T01:52:43Z Bike: my point is that in C you can assign to things without getting pointers to them
2018-03-23T01:52:51Z johnnymacs: true
2018-03-23T01:52:52Z Bike: because pointers and assignment are not the same thing
2018-03-23T01:53:08Z Bike: so, lisp has assignment, but it is not pointers, and it is not "hacked to behave like pointers" or whatever
2018-03-23T01:53:31Z johnnymacs: Well I don't believe lisp is implemented entirely in named lambda calculus
2018-03-23T01:53:38Z Bike: it isn't
2018-03-23T01:53:46Z Bike: but the implementation details aren't relevant to the semantics
2018-03-23T01:53:59Z johnnymacs: the implementation details are getting in the way of my code
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2018-03-23T01:54:22Z Bike: they aren't! all you're trying to do is set values in a hash table! that is easy to do with setf gethash, you just want to deal with pointers instead for some reason
2018-03-23T01:54:48Z johnnymacs: I dont want to type (gethash foo bar ( gethash foo bar (gethash foo bar)))
2018-03-23T01:55:01Z johnnymacs: I want to (gethashes "foo" "bar" "baz")
2018-03-23T01:55:19Z Bike: yeah, and you already wrote that. now you just need to write a (setf gethashes) that does a loop the other way or whatever.
2018-03-23T01:55:52Z johnnymacs: Wouldn't that add a conditional to the definition of setf?
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2018-03-23T01:56:16Z Bike: what? a conditional?
2018-03-23T01:56:48Z johnnymacs: If I am going to modify setf to handle gethashes the only way I can do that is with an array/hash table of functions or nested conditionals
2018-03-23T01:57:04Z Bike: no, setf is extensible.
2018-03-23T01:57:13Z Bike: you can just write a function called (setf gethashes) and setf will expand into it.
2018-03-23T01:57:21Z Bike: or if you need more control there's other things you can do.
2018-03-23T01:58:04Z johnnymacs: There's no way to do it without a macro?
2018-03-23T01:58:04Z Bike: this gethashes thing, it's defined so that (gethashes table a ...) = (gethashes (gethash a table) ...), right?
2018-03-23T01:58:19Z Bike: what's wrong with macros
2018-03-23T01:58:40Z johnnymacs: Well what happens to the speed of setf as the number of cases setf can handle increases
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2018-03-23T01:58:52Z Bike: macros are expanded at compile time.
2018-03-23T01:59:02Z johnnymacs: thats fine then
2018-03-23T02:00:32Z johnnymacs: so (defun (setf gethashes)())
2018-03-23T02:00:51Z Bike: (defun (setf gethashes) (new-value table &rest keys) ...)
2018-03-23T02:01:12Z Bike: (setf (gethashes table ...) new-value) will expand into (funcall #'(setf gethashes) new-value table ...)
2018-03-23T02:02:02Z Bike: of course, for most uses i imagine the number of keys will be fixed, so you could write something to do it without a loop
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2018-03-23T02:04:06Z johnnymacs: too many dots
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2018-03-23T02:06:13Z johnnymacs: oh I know what I should do that
2018-03-23T02:06:15Z johnnymacs: *then
2018-03-23T02:06:25Z johnnymacs: I just need to make a macro that exxpands to (gethash (gethash (gethash...
2018-03-23T02:06:45Z johnnymacs: instead of dolist
2018-03-23T02:07:31Z Bike: mhm.
2018-03-23T02:07:43Z johnnymacs: the issue is i am passing setf anonymous hash tables
2018-03-23T02:07:43Z Bike: if you want to do more like a macroexpansion, you can try defsetf.
2018-03-23T02:07:51Z Bike: is that an issue?
2018-03-23T02:08:15Z johnnymacs: Well I don't know. I can't get regular hash table functions to work either
2018-03-23T02:08:23Z johnnymacs: I keep coming up with nil nil wheN I try to fetch from a table
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2018-03-23T02:13:53Z johnnymacs: oh well I have no idea how to do it
2018-03-23T02:14:05Z Bike: i tried it, do you want to see?
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2018-03-23T02:14:14Z johnnymacs: sure
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2018-03-23T02:15:32Z Bike: https://pastebin.com/FxgX8HV1
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2018-03-23T02:21:01Z stacksmith: johnymacs: it's great that you jumped in and are coding, but you have a bit of a learning curve.  Rather than fighting it, you need to get to the point where CLHS makes sense.  Also not bitch that CL is getting in your way.  It is your brain that's in the way of accomplishing tasks, not CL.
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2018-03-23T02:22:15Z johnnymacs: once I get my hash tables working I can continue with my research
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2018-03-23T02:25:01Z stacksmith: Bike's code should pretty much to the basics.  Also read about Lisp macros - I think you may not fully appreciate them.  They are kind of like Forth immediate words - they run at compile time and transform the code to your wishes.
2018-03-23T02:26:20Z stacksmith: kind of.
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2018-03-23T02:26:24Z johnnymacs: (defvar foo (make-hash-table))
2018-03-23T02:26:24Z johnnymacs: (setf (gethashes foo "bar") (make-hash-table))
2018-03-23T02:26:24Z johnnymacs: (setf (gethashes foo "bar" "baz") 2)
2018-03-23T02:26:24Z johnnymacs: (gethashes foo "bar" "baz")
2018-03-23T02:26:51Z Bike: oh, i see what you mean about not working.
2018-03-23T02:27:04Z Bike: by default, the test hash tables use is EQL, and strings are usually not EQL.
2018-03-23T02:27:15Z Bike: try (make-hash-table :test #'equal)
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2018-03-23T02:39:27Z onion: does anyone know where this is now? http://matthias.benkard.de/code/objective-cl
2018-03-23T02:40:21Z Bike: https://matthias.benkard.de/objective-cl/ ?
2018-03-23T02:40:57Z Bike: oh, the darcs is gone, i see.
2018-03-23T02:42:04Z jeosol: anyone encounted (sb-vm::tal-call-symbol ....) error while running multiple threads. My code runs okay when I run serial, but I switch to parallel, I get that (sb-vm::tal-call-symbol ...) error and then says a function (defined by macro) is undefined
2018-03-23T02:42:34Z Bike: can we see the code?
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2018-03-23T02:46:19Z johnnymacs: (defun make-hash-object () (make-hash-table :test #'equal))
2018-03-23T02:46:22Z jeosol: @Bike, that was for me?
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2018-03-23T02:48:07Z Bike: yes.
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2018-03-23T02:48:52Z jeosol: @Bike, thanks for your assistance last time.
2018-03-23T02:49:47Z jeosol: This is the link to the section of the code. Just create pastebin account. Pardon the upcase, as the code is generated from macro
2018-03-23T02:49:54Z jeosol: this is the link https://pastebin.com/seCNxa1k
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2018-03-23T02:50:40Z jeosol: First of all, I will say I am not an expert lisp programmer, but I am writing an application in Lisp using SBCl for an optimization challenge with deadline in a few weeks
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2018-03-23T02:51:41Z Bike: and what do you do to get the error?
2018-03-23T02:51:43Z jeosol: things run serial without problems, but when I switch to parallel to gain some speed up, I get problems with GET-CPG-CELL-FACE-X- not being defined.
2018-03-23T02:52:26Z pierpa: jeosol: is this challenge public? (if so, please link, I'm curious)
2018-03-23T02:52:27Z jeosol: I just simply abort. I have never been able to run the code in parallel lots of macro generated functions.
2018-03-23T02:52:32Z jeosol: hahaha.
2018-03-23T02:52:52Z Bike: i mean, what do you run to induce the error
2018-03-23T02:53:12Z jeosol: yes, it is public, but it is domain-based challenge in fluid flow modeling.
2018-03-23T02:53:46Z jeosol: @bike, I am using lparallel library to do a bunch of parallel function evaluations
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2018-03-23T02:54:25Z Bike: in itself this code looks fine to me.
2018-03-23T02:54:37Z jeosol: the problem is an optimization problem. I am doing a bunch of F(X), where X is a vector of solutions. There can be many solutions in one iterations (think stochastic optimization algorithms), I can evaluate serially, but can get good speedup
2018-03-23T02:55:01Z pierpa: ok. Now I'm a lot less curious :)
2018-03-23T02:55:14Z jeosol: if I do things in parallel. Serially evaluation runs okay, but when I switch to parallel, I get some that SB-VM issue. I am using lparallel library
2018-03-23T02:56:10Z jeosol: @pierpa what is background/domain? the data for the challenge is not public in the sense that a request has to be made to get the data
2018-03-23T02:56:54Z jeosol: and solving the problem needs access to some other black box modeling tools. I can provide more details offline if needed
2018-03-23T02:56:57Z Bike: so, the problem is probably elsewhere
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2018-03-23T03:00:42Z jeosol: @Bike, this new paste shows the restarts I get when there is an error https://pastebin.com/bJqGkceM
2018-03-23T03:00:51Z jeosol: add the errors to the bottom
2018-03-23T03:02:05Z Bike: uh... that's weird.
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2018-03-23T03:02:12Z Bike: how about a backtrace?
2018-03-23T03:02:13Z pierpa: jeosol: Thank you, but no problem, really
2018-03-23T03:02:15Z jeosol: the calling function is defined in the same package as the function that it is complaining about, except that the latter is defined by a macro
2018-03-23T03:02:44Z jeosol: i meant to say generated by a macro
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2018-03-23T03:03:45Z jeosol: @Bike, it is weird, runs okay, when serial, but with parallel it blows up. there is something in the code base, that is not correct. I thought it was race condition related so I ran parallel option but with one worker per batch, same error
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2018-03-23T03:08:48Z jeosol: @pierpa, the problem is really challenging, each function takes 14 mins on my machine. and I need to run hundreds or thousands of function evaluations, so parallel is definitely the way to go
2018-03-23T03:08:54Z stacksmith: jeosol: are there any global variables in play?  They may not be the same in a different thread...
2018-03-23T03:09:21Z stacksmith: Like *get-cell-p-functions*...
2018-03-23T03:10:00Z jeosol: Thanks @stacksmith, appreciate the help. That defvar is in the same package. It is a vector of other functions defined by a macro.
2018-03-23T03:10:37Z stacksmith: I don't know if that's sufficient to be in the same package...  I would print it and make sure...
2018-03-23T03:10:44Z Bike: whether it's in the same package probably is orthogonal
2018-03-23T03:10:52Z jeosol: I posted an earlier problem, I got recommendations (I think it was @Bike, not sure) to use that instead of constructing function names dynamically using intern and format ..
2018-03-23T03:11:14Z jeosol: I posted an earlier problem, I got recommendations (I think it was @Bike, not sure) to use that instead of constructing function names dynamically using intern and format ..
2018-03-23T03:11:15Z jeosol: I see
2018-03-23T03:11:34Z stacksmith: It's fine to use an array, it's just that it's global.  So when a new thread starts, it is probably nil.
2018-03-23T03:13:40Z stacksmith: Inside that thread that is.  You may need to rebind it in whatever function that starts a new thread in lparallel.
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2018-03-23T03:19:33Z jeosol: @stacksmith, do you mean rebind the global variable? It is fixed and doesn't change.
2018-03-23T03:20:32Z jeosol: in the debugger I get this error: COMMON-LISP-USER::GET-NORMAL-CPG-CELL-FACE-X-1 is undefined
2018-03-23T03:20:51Z jeosol: Not sure why it is looking for that function in the CL-USER package when I run in parallel?
2018-03-23T03:21:32Z jeosol: Let me try to those suggestions
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2018-03-23T03:28:42Z stacksmith: jeosol: If you create a new thread and output to *standard-output* you will crash, because inside the thread *standard-output* is nil (or maybe unbound, I can't remember).
2018-03-23T03:29:05Z Bike: maybe you compiled it in the wrong thread by mistake.
2018-03-23T03:29:10Z Bike: in the wrong package, i meant.
2018-03-23T03:29:45Z stacksmith: Bike: do packages have anything to do with thread globals?
2018-03-23T03:30:08Z Bike: not directly, but if it's looking for a symbol in the wrong package that seems like a good place to start looking for problems
2018-03-23T03:30:39Z stacksmith: Honestly, the first thing to do is print the array and see if it has functions in it...
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2018-03-23T03:45:45Z pierpa: jeosol: wait, "defined by a macro" means that your macro is creating the symbol you use as the function name?
2018-03-23T03:45:56Z jeosol: @stacksmith, my application runs and writes statement to the *standard-output*, e.g., results from computations, etc.
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2018-03-23T03:46:20Z jeosol: yes, @pierpa, I write a macro to generate some of the functions automatically
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2018-03-23T03:46:44Z stacksmith: Are you sure that the output comes from inside the thread - or from main thread after the computations are done?
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2018-03-23T03:46:49Z pierpa: ok. Then, of course, the mistake is at this point
2018-03-23T03:47:49Z stacksmith: Also, if you put the whole program into a thread, it's possible that some intialization function causes macros to expand inside the thread, with CL-USER as the default package...
2018-03-23T03:48:14Z stacksmith: I know you think I am wrong, and perhaps I am, but it all kind of makes sense.
2018-03-23T03:48:48Z jeosol: @stacksmith, no, I am not saying you are wrong or anyone. I need suggestions on what the problem could be
2018-03-23T03:49:35Z stacksmith: jeosol: if you want to rule out the issues I proposed, just output the values of *package* and your array from inside the thread...
2018-03-23T03:52:55Z stacksmith: Bordeaux-threads docs state "Global bindings are shared between threads: the initial value of a global variable in the new thread will be the same as in the parent, and an assignment to such a variable in any thread will be visible to all threads in which the global binding is visible." - but I always have to rebind *standard-output* or it does not work.
2018-03-23T03:53:22Z Bike: well, in slime standard output is specially bound in the repl thread.
2018-03-23T03:53:31Z stacksmith: Right.
2018-03-23T03:53:59Z stacksmith: So if any of the globals at thread startup happen to be bound, the values are lost.
2018-03-23T03:54:51Z stacksmith: Hence, I suspect that package may be bound, and inside the thread it's what it was originall - CL-USER.
2018-03-23T03:55:19Z stacksmith: The array is probably set, so it should be ok.
2018-03-23T03:55:33Z pillton: I'm not sure how bordeaux-threads can make such a claim given that it is up to the implementation to decide what happens with the environment when a new thread is created.
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2018-03-23T03:56:00Z Bike: bordeaux threads is/was also an attempt to define what implementations should do
2018-03-23T03:56:10Z stacksmith: Do any implementations not do that?
2018-03-23T03:56:59Z stacksmith: I would imagine that threads are started way deep, in a place where bindings are not in scope.
2018-03-23T03:57:35Z stacksmith: I think you'd have to go out of your way to make it behave differently.
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2018-03-23T03:59:17Z stacksmith: Threads get a clean stack, so no dynamic bindings...
2018-03-23T04:00:07Z Bike: you could have all special bindings be in thread local storage. then there'd be no global bindings.
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2018-03-23T04:02:17Z stacksmith: How would you do that? Keep a pointer to a TLS value as the symbol's value slot?
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2018-03-23T04:02:55Z stacksmith: Then you would have to keep track of all special bindings separately.  Do implementations do that?
2018-03-23T04:02:58Z Bike: or have no "value slots" to begin with.
2018-03-23T04:03:05Z Bike: i don't think any implementations do that.
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2018-03-23T04:04:30Z stacksmith: Well, whatever way symbols are associated with values - you would need to keep a separate list and upon thread creation recreate it in the new TLS buffer - and you would still wind up with the initial global values...
2018-03-23T04:04:53Z stacksmith: Or maybe not...
2018-03-23T04:05:01Z Bike: i'm saying have no global symbol-value association at all.
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2018-03-23T04:05:16Z stacksmith: How would you resolve global values?
2018-03-23T04:05:24Z Bike: you don't have global values.
2018-03-23T04:05:33Z Bike: in this hypothetical alternate implementation.
2018-03-23T04:05:41Z stacksmith: Oh, I missed that.
2018-03-23T04:05:48Z stacksmith: I would go for that.
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2018-03-23T04:06:56Z stacksmith: Except, the outer bindings would contain the entire rest of the system, requiring a full recompile every time anything is changed - at least the way SBCL currently works...
2018-03-23T04:09:09Z stacksmith: I think I am missing something, probably the TLS bit...
2018-03-23T04:09:23Z rme: Typically, implementations make certain special variables thread-local (such as *print-base*, etc.).  Other special variables see a global value.  In CCL, there's a form called defstatic which is like defparameter, but asserts that the symbol in question will never be given a thread-local binding.
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2018-03-23T04:11:04Z Zhivago: Imagine having the symbols contain an index relative to a TLS offset.
2018-03-23T04:11:55Z Zhivago: Or imagine having the symbols look up a sparse map stored in TLS.
2018-03-23T04:12:49Z Zhivago: Personally, my preference is to use (possibly very light-weight) processes rather than threads, so that this problem doesn't exist.
2018-03-23T04:13:07Z Zhivago: Shared memory just doesn't scale and introduces lots of problems.
2018-03-23T04:14:27Z stacksmith: I see.  The new thread gets a copy of the original TLS and all is well...
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2018-03-23T04:14:38Z jeosol: This is a pain, not resolved,  yet, but may be I have to rethink how I structure things
2018-03-23T04:15:14Z jeosol: it is just something to do with the thread calls, and not recognizing that function.
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2018-03-23T04:16:07Z jeosol: I will keep hacking at this as I need the parallel functionality. Thanks for all your comments. I am monitoring the chat for hints ... :-)
2018-03-23T04:16:36Z stacksmith: jeosol: have you tried to output *package* from the environment in which your macro runs?  Is it possible that you have an (eval-when ...) initialzation that somehow winds up inside the thread?
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2018-03-23T04:18:05Z jeosol: @stacksmith, I have the macros in (eval-when ...) statements
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2018-03-23T04:18:26Z jeosol: this is the problem?
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2018-03-23T04:19:30Z jeosol: the macros are defined in the (eval-when ...) statemetns
2018-03-23T04:20:21Z stacksmith: I think so, if the thread initialization is around the macros.  They run in a new context in CL-USER package
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2018-03-23T04:21:43Z stacksmith: Also, if you bind *package*, your binding is lost...
2018-03-23T04:22:43Z stacksmith: Also, if you start the threads in eval-when, who knows what happens.
2018-03-23T04:24:49Z stacksmith: I try to spawn new threads after the system is loaded and all compilation and expansion is done...
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2018-03-23T04:30:08Z emaczen: How can I get the amount of milliseconds elapsed in a program?
2018-03-23T04:33:06Z stacksmith: CLHS get-internal-real-time
2018-03-23T04:33:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm
2018-03-23T04:33:24Z stacksmith: CLHS internal-time-units-per-second
2018-03-23T04:33:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_intern.htm
2018-03-23T04:33:41Z emaczen:  stacksmith: do you just (/ (- time2 time1) internal-time-units-per-second)?
2018-03-23T04:33:56Z emaczen: Then multiply by 1000
2018-03-23T04:34:49Z stacksmith: I think so, but you may want to decide if you want to truncate or deal with floats or fractions, etc.
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2018-03-23T04:41:55Z jeosol: @stacksmith, I don't start the threads in eval-when. I use that to define the functions when I load the system. I think the problem is related to *package*
2018-03-23T04:42:03Z jeosol: I am doing (export 'name *package*)
2018-03-23T04:42:48Z pierpa: duh
2018-03-23T04:43:10Z pierpa: when you export the symbol you have already created it in the current package
2018-03-23T04:47:01Z jeosol: For some that are used in a different package.
2018-03-23T04:48:51Z jeosol: My application is very large so I am using asdf:package-inferred-system for all my files and I have to manage things carefully. See the updated repo as of January 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgdiRh-alfQ
2018-03-23T04:48:56Z pierpa: that EXPORT will not make the symbol accessible in any package apart than it's home package
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2018-03-23T04:49:21Z stacksmith: Do you need to have the macros in eval-when?  It may not be the issue, but is there a reason?
2018-03-23T04:49:36Z jeosol: I see your point.
2018-03-23T04:50:20Z stacksmith: Do the threads start up at some defined point?
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2018-03-23T04:50:48Z stacksmith: Pretty!
2018-03-23T04:50:57Z jeosol: @stacksmith, I only use the threads for the function evaluations. Multiple calls SIMD type, F(X), where my X's are different CLOS objects
2018-03-23T04:52:00Z pierpa: jeosol: your system is the one shown by the video, or your system is the thing which produced the video?
2018-03-23T04:52:06Z stacksmith: Well, I still think that the first thing you should've done a couple of hours ago when we started this - print or stick the value of *package* somewhere and look at it.
2018-03-23T04:53:06Z jeosol: @pierpa, the visualization is made by GOURCE tool to visualize my git repo
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2018-03-23T04:53:21Z stacksmith: What is the thing you are working on?
2018-03-23T04:53:44Z pierpa: ok. I didn't knew GOURCE. Very cool tool.
2018-03-23T04:54:10Z jeosol: There is a visualization for SBCL code base with GOURCE on youtube but not sure how updated it is. There are others for LINUX, python, etc
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2018-03-23T04:55:46Z pierpa: will look for them :)
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2018-03-23T04:57:49Z jeosol: The tool shows evolution and complexity of GIT repo. I was just fooling around with options to GOURCE and added elasticity to the branches etc
2018-03-23T04:58:01Z jeosol: @stacksmith Thanks.
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2018-03-23T05:01:24Z jeosol: @stacksmith. The code base does not focus on a single problem but a series of interrelated problems in a domain. The part on optimization is focused at that challenge I mentioned. There are parts doing some small ML type workflows, etc
2018-03-23T05:02:04Z jeosol: but my focus for the last few moments is in the optimization part to get it to work for that challenge problem.
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2018-03-23T05:03:53Z jeosol: I asked a question yesterday here about web frameworks in CL to use. I wanted to build a web application to have public access. I know a bit of hunchentoot and cl-who, html, javascript, etc, I will do this later, but for now, I just run within slime
2018-03-23T05:05:54Z jeosol: @stacksmith, like I said before, I am not an expert on a lot of things. The part of Cl I understood the most is CLOS part  because my code is essentially OOP which is easier to manage for me. How things work internally, is not all clear to me so I learn as I go
2018-03-23T05:06:04Z stacksmith: jeosol: I've been up for two days and getting fuzzy, but if your export is in the macro definition, you probably want (export 'name ,*package*), no?  Splice in the package as it exists at expansion time, not when the macro was defined...
2018-03-23T05:07:00Z jeosol: @stacksmith, that is what I am doing .Probably a typo in my initial answer
2018-03-23T05:07:11Z jeosol: in the ,*package* part
2018-03-23T05:07:55Z stacksmith: Wait, that's backwards.  You want no comma, the package at expansion time, not at definition time.  Can someone look at this because I am getting cross-eyed...
2018-03-23T05:08:02Z jeosol: @stacksmith, thanks for the suggestions, you can get some rest man. I will go through the messages to review the messages again
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2018-03-23T05:09:09Z jeosol: @stacksmith, *package* name is replaced correctly when I do macroexpand
2018-03-23T05:09:40Z stacksmith: Wait, it is right there.  Without a comma it expands to *package* and gets its value then and there, with a comma it spliced in the package at macro definition time.
2018-03-23T05:09:50Z stacksmith: You happen to be in the right package so it looks right.
2018-03-23T05:10:11Z stacksmith: Try expanding it in another package.
2018-03-23T05:10:17Z pierpa: you should either create the symbol in the right package with (INTERN "NAME" the-right-package), or IMPORT the symbol in the right package later. Your EXPORT does nothing.
2018-03-23T05:10:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-23T05:10:34Z pierpa: 'morning
2018-03-23T05:10:37Z stacksmith: pierpa: right.
2018-03-23T05:10:41Z jeosol: Morning beach
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2018-03-23T05:10:49Z jeosol: @pierpa, thanks for that.
2018-03-23T05:11:06Z stacksmith: Top of the morning, beach
2018-03-23T05:11:31Z jeosol: Since I use asdf:package-inferred-system and essentially one-file defsystems, I usually import the functions one.
2018-03-23T05:12:10Z jeosol: For the error I am getting the caller and called function are in the same package. Everything blows up when I go parallel function evaluation, otherwise, it runs without problems.
2018-03-23T05:12:57Z stacksmith: jeosol, just to be clear, macroexpanding your macro in REPL and having it expand in its eval-when environment during startup is likely very different.  That's why I've been urging you to figure out a clean way to see what *package* is, at that point and go from there...
2018-03-23T05:13:14Z jeosol: in the functions are evaluated serially.
2018-03-23T05:13:32Z pierpa: I suggest reading carefully the packages chapter of CLTLII, or alternatively the relevant parts of CL recipes.
2018-03-23T05:13:33Z jeosol: @stacksmith, ok let me do that. You men when I am running the application, to print the value of *package*
2018-03-23T05:14:39Z stacksmith: yeah, but be careful about when you do it.  You want to modify your macro to push the package onto a global, I think - because it might expand more than once....
2018-03-23T05:14:49Z jeosol: Thanks @pierpa, I need to get a copy of that book for sure. When my system got large, after a chat with Fare and switching to one-file system, it is painful but manageable
2018-03-23T05:15:55Z stacksmith: I'm outta here.
2018-03-23T05:16:25Z jeosol: Thanks @stacksmith, appreciate the help.
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2018-03-23T05:37:53Z didi: Does anyone know a lisp syntax for defining dates?
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2018-03-23T05:39:25Z beach: Use ISO 8601.
2018-03-23T05:39:28Z jeosol: @didi, are you using one of the time libraries
2018-03-23T05:40:38Z didi: beach: I was thinking of something more lispy.
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2018-03-23T05:40:48Z didi: jeosol: Nope. Any indication?
2018-03-23T05:41:24Z jeosol: ok, I asked because it you are working with time and dates, it is easier to use one of the time-date librarieis
2018-03-23T05:41:46Z didi: oic
2018-03-23T05:41:48Z jeosol: Which one you use depends on what you are doing, time resolutions, if you want to track local-time, etc
2018-03-23T05:42:07Z didi: Thanks. What I am looking for is a language for defining dates.
2018-03-23T05:42:15Z jeosol: so they have functions to create a date-time for instance
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2018-03-23T06:09:13Z didi: I mig
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2018-03-23T06:09:25Z didi: *ht try to write my own.
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2018-03-23T06:14:34Z stacksmith: didi: you are probably familiar with http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
2018-03-23T06:14:55Z didi: stacksmith: Ah, I was trying to remember it right now.
2018-03-23T06:15:02Z didi: Thanks.
2018-03-23T06:16:58Z stacksmith: That's the second time Naggum came up today...
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2018-03-23T06:19:14Z didi: Oh, look, there's a system called `local-time'.
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2018-03-23T06:20:57Z didi: Maybe I'm cycling back to beach's suggestion.
2018-03-23T06:21:17Z didi: circling*
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2018-03-23T06:23:11Z stacksmith: It's best not to reinvent the wheel, unless it's really fun.
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2018-03-23T06:24:50Z didi: Nice.
2018-03-23T06:25:18Z didi has a new fortune quote
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2018-03-23T06:32:44Z stacksmith: didi: not as good as "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. "
2018-03-23T06:33:38Z stacksmith: Attribution: Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut
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2018-03-23T06:35:21Z beach: That's a good one.
2018-03-23T06:35:56Z stacksmith: Or perhaps my favorite by Alan Perlis: "Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon."
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2018-03-23T06:48:22Z myrkraverk: Go got rid of the semicolon I think.
2018-03-23T06:48:40Z myrkraverk: But that's about all I know about Go.
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2018-03-23T09:10:53Z flip214: myrkraverk: Javascript got a lot of flak for the _optional_ semicolon
2018-03-23T09:11:20Z flip214: because long lines that get broken might be interpreted as first line + syntax error or, worse, two individual lines
2018-03-23T09:11:53Z jackdaniel: nobody said cancer is a good thing
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2018-03-23T09:36:23Z dim: hi
2018-03-23T09:37:37Z dim: what would you recommand to a retiree using windows who wants to hack some common lisp, in terms of setup? I'm thinking ACL or LispWorks might make sense in that case, right?
2018-03-23T09:37:44Z dim: (unless the guy knows Emacs already of course)
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2018-03-23T09:42:00Z shka: dim: though luck here!
2018-03-23T09:42:15Z Shinmera: dim: Portacle?
2018-03-23T09:43:18Z shka: how to set up proper versioning for quicklisp?
2018-03-23T09:43:31Z shka: just use git tags and quicklisp projects will pick it up?
2018-03-23T09:45:42Z jackdaniel: isn't portacle basically emacs + cl / ide integration?
2018-03-23T09:45:58Z Shinmera: It is.
2018-03-23T09:46:45Z dim: yeah I told the guy to use Emacs if he already knows how to, or if he's ready to take on the learning curve
2018-03-23T09:47:14Z Shinmera: My retired dad was able to get going with Portacle well enough.
2018-03-23T09:47:14Z dim: the other options are for if he wants a windows native IDE for CL, I guess, where you can click and discover things
2018-03-23T09:47:55Z dim: Shinmera: with some luck this guy will to, but I just don't know him and won't be able/willing to offer any guidance other than an email sometimes, so...
2018-03-23T09:49:42Z jackdaniel: being able and willing two are two different things. if I had a choice I'd dump emacs today despite knowing it reasonably well
2018-03-23T09:49:51Z jackdaniel: s/willing two/willing to/
2018-03-23T09:52:24Z dim: oh? for me Emacs embeds my whole workflow, tailored the way I like it… I think the only reason I can work from a mac laptop is because I have Emacs and the underlying Unix tools easily available
2018-03-23T09:53:55Z jackdaniel: I agree it is a powerful tool etc etc, and when I'm installing Windows VM to test ECL usually I'm hacking from inside Emacs too
2018-03-23T09:54:10Z jackdaniel: still I really dislike it (not that I've found something better)
2018-03-23T09:54:41Z dim: fair enough I suppose
2018-03-23T09:56:51Z runejuhl: dim: maybe spacemacs? I've only tried it briefly, but it seems like a good introduction to emacs with a pretty sizable community
2018-03-23T09:59:41Z dim: I sent the email now, saying Emacs/SLIME first, then maybe ACL or LispWorks for having a windows like experience
2018-03-23T10:00:01Z dim: me personnaly, my setup is pretty well ingrained in my fingers anyway ;-)
2018-03-23T10:00:34Z dim: jackdaniel: oh and I think for hacking lisp I would like having a McCLIM based environement with some kind of graphics support and things, really, but well, it's not there yet
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2018-03-23T10:35:41Z dim: (and to be fair I don't have enough time to help) :/
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2018-03-23T11:25:14Z myrkraverk: flip214: (I honestly don't know much about the optional ; in JS, and the flak it's gotten) and that is precisely why I was surprised to learn Go doesn't have semi colons.
2018-03-23T11:27:19Z _death: Go also has optional semicolons, but gofmt removes them
2018-03-23T11:28:09Z myrkraverk: That doesn't surprise me.
2018-03-23T11:29:11Z myrkraverk: Go also inherits the dangerous 13 is thirteen and 013 is eleven; from C.
2018-03-23T11:29:49Z _death: never thought it "dangerous"
2018-03-23T11:30:44Z myrkraverk: Well, it's surprising enough for newbies, and sometimes people just want to align numbers with zero instead of space.
2018-03-23T11:30:55Z _death: who cares about newbies
2018-03-23T11:31:01Z myrkraverk: Good question.
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2018-03-23T11:32:22Z _death: newbies make tons of mistakes and this would just be another one.. and I doubt it's a very common mistake anyway
2018-03-23T11:32:47Z loke: In maclisp, 13 is 11 and 13. is 13
2018-03-23T11:32:51Z myrkraverk: I thought the idea behind Go (and Rust for that matter) was to create a language that'd be safer than C.  Apparently Go has already failed in my opinion; not that I'm likely to learn much more of Go.
2018-03-23T11:32:52Z loke: That one's really fun
2018-03-23T11:33:07Z myrkraverk: loke: lol, yes.
2018-03-23T11:33:27Z loke: myrkraverk: As I said on Mastodon some time ago, “Go is the Visual Basic of systems programming”
2018-03-23T11:33:39Z myrkraverk: Oh, great.
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2018-03-23T11:34:28Z _death: Go fixes some C stupidities, though it lacks C's ABI.. it also has a nice and readable standard library.. but it's also kind of the antithesis to Lisp, so..
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2018-03-23T11:35:36Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2018-03-23T11:35:55Z myrkraverk: Lisp is my go-to language for many, many tasks now; a lot of it has to do with quicklisp.
2018-03-23T11:36:00Z jackdaniel: I've heard the opinion, that it is an improvement over C (so basically that it is better C). But do we want to get stuck with another (albeit better) C for next 40 years? :-)
2018-03-23T11:36:17Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: even better question.
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2018-03-23T11:37:20Z _death: it's an improvement in some respects, but not others.. also, why would we be stuck? we use CL :)
2018-03-23T11:37:23Z myrkraverk: I've seen a recent advertisement/comment/opinion that people need programmable programming languages for today's tasks -- and my thought was "we already have had that in lisp for centuries now"
2018-03-23T11:37:55Z jackdaniel: dim: agreed, McCLIM is not there yet :)
2018-03-23T11:38:20Z runejuhl: Go is a decent language IMO, it's beginner friendly (good stdlib, highly opiniated wrt style making source easy to ready), the (weak) type system saves some errors, but the main attraction @work is that we can compile a statically linked binary that's relatively small and efficient
2018-03-23T11:39:26Z runejuhl: I'd love to replace it with something lispy though, but haven't found a good fit.. And I'm sure my coworkers would object a bit, since they have just gotten fairly procient in Go...
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2018-03-23T11:48:24Z beach: When I give talks to industry, I always point out that I think a project leader or manager who chooses a programming language without an independent standard should be fired.  Such a choice may very well require substantial maintenance work in the future, and in some cases complete rewrites (when the single implementation is no longer supported).
2018-03-23T11:49:25Z beach: Actually, I give them one more possible choice, namely to also hire an entire team of compiler experts that are able to keep the language they chose going even when it is abandoned.
2018-03-23T11:49:50Z shka: you must be very popular in the industry :D
2018-03-23T11:49:56Z beach: I am actually.
2018-03-23T11:50:05Z shka: oh, ok
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2018-03-23T11:50:16Z beach: I was just (re-)invited to give another talk to a company that already invited me.
2018-03-23T11:50:32Z shka: well, this is exactly opposite of what i think they would want to hear
2018-03-23T11:50:48Z beach: I am not hired to tell them what they want to hear.
2018-03-23T11:50:51Z shka: and from my expirence, being popular is 99% of saying things they want to hear
2018-03-23T11:51:13Z beach: I am hired as an expert consultant to tell them things they should know.
2018-03-23T11:51:17Z myrkraverk: beach: that's a very good point.
2018-03-23T11:51:27Z beach: myrkraverk: Which one? :)
2018-03-23T11:51:36Z shka: ALL OF IT!
2018-03-23T11:51:39Z shka: ;-)
2018-03-23T11:51:45Z myrkraverk: "when I give talks to the industry ..."
2018-03-23T11:51:50Z beach: Thanks.
2018-03-23T11:51:57Z myrkraverk: beach: but basically all of it, too.
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2018-03-23T11:52:30Z beach: Thanks.  I have given this a lot of thought actually, so I am glad that my work is recognized.
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2018-03-23T11:53:16Z myrkraverk: That rules out both Rust and Go, afaict, still leaves CL and C
2018-03-23T11:53:22Z myrkraverk: Not sure about Java, though.
2018-03-23T11:53:40Z beach: In a talk like that, I talk about "risk analysis", and if they had done one of those, they would have seen the light.  Unfortunately, most project leaders and managers don't even know what a risk analysis is.
2018-03-23T11:54:10Z beach: myrkraverk: Ask Google about Java.  They were sued by Oracle after having chosen Java, thinking it was free.
2018-03-23T11:54:56Z beach: It also rules out Microsoft proprietary stuff like C#.
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2018-03-23T11:55:14Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
2018-03-23T11:55:21Z shka: actually, Google is conflicted with Oracle about garbage collector in JVM now
2018-03-23T11:55:31Z _death: these languages have "standards", but they have new of them every couple of years
2018-03-23T11:56:05Z shka: google does not want G1 GC
2018-03-23T11:56:09Z beach: I require the standard to be "independent", i.e., not from the supplier of the implementation.
2018-03-23T11:56:19Z _death: since there is a clear divide between the users of the language and the designers (and implementers) of the language
2018-03-23T11:56:32Z myrkraverk: beach: Google also complained about "the community" dropping the JVM implementation that was formerly an Apache project; not ever mentioning that it was Oracle's move to make it cost real world money to maintain.
2018-03-23T11:57:01Z beach: myrkraverk: I see.
2018-03-23T11:58:02Z myrkraverk: I don't remember the specifics, but Oracle made the test suite cost real world money, if it wasn't used for OpenJDK and/or GPL licensed; something along those lines.
2018-03-23T11:58:37Z _death: and there are also nontechnical reasons that make deprecating yesterday's stuff with tomorrow's deprecated stuff a thing
2018-03-23T11:58:43Z myrkraverk: Right now I don't even remember the JVM implementation's name.
2018-03-23T11:59:01Z myrkraverk: shka: what's G1 GC?
2018-03-23T11:59:34Z dim: beach: the risk analysis certainly weights in the expected life time of the project at hand and the cost of a rewrite, either for using a new programming language, a new version of a non-standard programming language (PHP/Python I'm looking at you guys), or maybe even for architectural changes (micro services, distributed network / serverless / k8s and such)?
2018-03-23T12:00:07Z shka: myrkraverk: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/tutorials/tutorials-1876574.html
2018-03-23T12:00:14Z shka: new garbage collector for JVM
2018-03-23T12:00:27Z shka: not sure if it is superior
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2018-03-23T12:01:03Z dim: with Golang, I kind of like the default tooling, wherein you don't have much to think about before you can build a project and have a program to run, static binary, it's quite easy
2018-03-23T12:01:17Z dim: I've head roswell does about the same thing for CL, but I didn't try it yet
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2018-03-23T12:01:26Z _death: dim: in Lisp, you have the REPL
2018-03-23T12:01:31Z dim: go fmt, go run, go build, go test, etc, that's nice
2018-03-23T12:01:52Z dim: _death: that's good for the developer, not for the user
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2018-03-23T12:02:13Z dim: it seems to me, more and more so, that my use case for CL is pretty unusual
2018-03-23T12:02:20Z _death: dim: depends on the identity of said user
2018-03-23T12:02:40Z dim: I mean, I use CL to ship a program to people who are not expected to hack it, just use it, and they know nothing about CL
2018-03-23T12:02:46Z dim: in go, you go build and shipit
2018-03-23T12:02:59Z dim: no questions asked, it just works, reliably, from the default toolset
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2018-03-23T12:03:33Z dim: I wish we had something like that for CL, including support for shared libs, or even better, having CL implementations of common libs so that you don't need the .so at all
2018-03-23T12:03:37Z shka: dim: so you are shipping application
2018-03-23T12:03:44Z dim: shka: yeah
2018-03-23T12:04:13Z dim: pgloader, pgcharts, pginstall, those are applications that happen to be written in CL; the REPL is awesome for me as a developer, totally useless for the users
2018-03-23T12:04:33Z runejuhl: dim: that sounds like what I've been looking for -- if you do find something, I'd love a heads up
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2018-03-23T12:04:35Z shka: lack of libraries for niche tasks is certainly painful
2018-03-23T12:04:42Z _death: it's only useless because you chose not to make your app repl-based ;)
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2018-03-23T12:04:55Z dim: runejuhl: try roswell?
2018-03-23T12:05:18Z runejuhl: dim: yup, just had a look at it, looks interesting
2018-03-23T12:05:22Z dim: _death: hacking a good REPL is lots of work, I have choosen other problems to solve
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2018-03-23T12:07:38Z _death: dim: think psql in lisp
2018-03-23T12:07:57Z _death: dim: then you could have your pgbuilder be an extension to it
2018-03-23T12:08:13Z dim: for pgloader, my whole goal is “Continuous Migrations”, that is, a way to automate a task and do it again and again, unmanned
2018-03-23T12:08:22Z dim: why would I have a repl for that?
2018-03-23T12:08:59Z dim: psql is lisp is SLIME, basically
2018-03-23T12:09:10Z dim: s/is/in/
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2018-03-23T12:10:49Z _death: a repl doesn't exclude it.. I won't elaborate on the advantages, expect them to be obvious to people here ;)
2018-03-23T12:12:01Z jackdaniel: slapping REPL on top of some complicated software gives you nothing - not much different than attaching gdb to running C process
2018-03-23T12:12:11Z schweers: beach: do you intend to add anything thread related to WSCL?
2018-03-23T12:12:13Z dim: yeah I agree, but it doesn't help solve the problems I mentionned in any way that I can see :/
2018-03-23T12:12:39Z _death: jackdaniel: I didn't suggest that.. "make your app repl-based" is a design choice
2018-03-23T12:12:58Z schweers: or is is “merely” a cleanup of things mentioned already, but not well specified?
2018-03-23T12:13:28Z _death: jackdaniel: also, it does give you something.. like gdb gives you something
2018-03-23T12:14:00Z jackdaniel: I very much dislike this phrase, but here it fits perfectly: "less is more"
2018-03-23T12:14:06Z jackdaniel: I hate interfaces which give me too much choices
2018-03-23T12:14:24Z jackdaniel: (that's one of the reasons why I don't like Emacs btw)
2018-03-23T12:14:49Z _death: jackdaniel: what about Lisp?
2018-03-23T12:14:54Z jackdaniel: if I'm interested in flushing the toiled I don't need 8 buttons for that
2018-03-23T12:15:19Z jackdaniel: Lisp is a programming language not an application afair
2018-03-23T12:15:42Z _death: Emacs is also a(n implementation of a) programming language
2018-03-23T12:15:50Z Shinmera: It's an application to write programs with :)
2018-03-23T12:16:13Z _death: and Autocad?
2018-03-23T12:16:20Z jackdaniel: maybe that's why I don't like Emacs. I'm interested in editing files, not programming them.
2018-03-23T12:16:31Z jackdaniel has presented his point of view, nothing more to add from his side.
2018-03-23T12:16:46Z Shinmera: I meant Lisp is an application to write programs with.
2018-03-23T12:17:14Z dim: lisp is programmable, go and C are not
2018-03-23T12:17:22Z jackdaniel: if we assume that Lisp is an application to write programs with, then I have to conclude that it is a very crappy application
2018-03-23T12:17:22Z dim: I'm not sure I would say that lisp is an application
2018-03-23T12:17:26Z jackdaniel: still a very good programming language
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2018-03-23T12:17:50Z Shinmera: dim: What's the difference? You're using an interface (text) to make the computer do things (evaluation).
2018-03-23T12:18:03Z dim: I don't use Emacs as an application either, it's an interactive environment that I can program to my desires, I like that
2018-03-23T12:18:42Z jackdaniel: my computer is an application too then. I press keys and it does *magic*
2018-03-23T12:18:55Z jackdaniel backs off this discussion, later
2018-03-23T12:19:00Z dim: Shinmera: I would say that for me, an application implements a solution to a use-case, or a set of use cases, it's not open-ended and supposed to be evolved by the user into something else
2018-03-23T12:19:02Z jackdaniel: s/off/off of/
2018-03-23T12:19:10Z dim: Emacs is supposed to be grown by its user into something specific
2018-03-23T12:19:13Z dim: Lisp is supposed to be grown by its user into something specific
2018-03-23T12:19:23Z dim: pgloader is not, it only does a limited number of things
2018-03-23T12:19:25Z Shinmera: dim: Sure, a language is a solution to turing-complete problems.
2018-03-23T12:19:44Z dim: when you're given lisp, nobody knows what kind of problem you're going to solve with it
2018-03-23T12:19:55Z Shinmera: My point is that the distinction between what people see as an "application" or not is very arbitrary. Whether you're pushing buttons or writing text is hardly consequential.
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2018-03-23T12:20:02Z dim: when you're given an application, I'd argue that people know what kind of problem you might want to solve with it
2018-03-23T12:20:47Z dim: what I know for sure is that everytime a pgloader user sees the lisp REPL / prompt with the useful restart values, they feel like I didn't do a proper job at writing an application that just works
2018-03-23T12:20:57Z dim: they don't want to know how pgloader works, they want to use it, full stop
2018-03-23T12:21:05Z dim: anyway, semantics are hard
2018-03-23T12:21:31Z Shinmera: I think that's more a question of presentation than a question of anything else.
2018-03-23T12:21:33Z dim: it began with comparing Golang and Lisp in several dimensions, including the default tooling, and I think the default tooling for Golang makes a lot of sense
2018-03-23T12:21:35Z stacksmith: Modern idiocy is to create a lot of declarative layers like CSS or crap in Emacs.  Once it gets big, there is no way to figure out who sets a color or responds to a message...
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2018-03-23T12:22:25Z _death: dim: both CL and Elisp provide abstractions useful for particular domains (abstractions for creating abstractions, or abstractions for manipulating buffers and windows and points and marks and...).. this suggests to their users the kind of things they may be used for
2018-03-23T12:22:44Z dim: CL users are expected to... write lisp programs, right?
2018-03-23T12:23:08Z Shinmera: CL isn't ideal for everything and pretending otherwise is folly.
2018-03-23T12:23:22Z dim: I feel like the comparison we're making is different tho
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2018-03-23T12:23:49Z dim: like saying that having gcc and the libc is preferable to shipping cat, it's a coupld open and dup calls anyway
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2018-03-23T12:24:53Z dim: some users want to be able to use /usr/bin/cat without having to know how simple it is to write the C code behind it, that's my argument in favor of the go build default tooling vs the immense flexibility we have in CL with the REPL, I guess
2018-03-23T12:25:07Z dim: not sure if that makes much sense, I hope it clarifies the message somehow
2018-03-23T12:25:25Z _death: dim: it's more like saying that a Lisp with a properly designed CAT function can be nicer than UNIX cat
2018-03-23T12:26:09Z myrkraverk: I get dim's message here; not sure about any other messages.
2018-03-23T12:26:38Z myrkraverk: And shipping a cat can be painful if it's not in a good enough box.  They have claws.
2018-03-23T12:27:09Z dim: the unix box comes with a good enough REPL for most users, because they know nothing else, mainly, but that's not the point
2018-03-23T12:27:27Z dim: so default golang tooling is pretty good at targetting the Unix user experience, I guess?
2018-03-23T12:28:04Z dim: whereas the CL default tooling is meant for something else entirely, which means that using CL to target the unix user experience is full of traps, uneasy, and frustrating as hell
2018-03-23T12:28:16Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: My messages are: whether something is or isn't an application is entirely arbitrary, and: whether people are comfortable with something or not is almost entirely a question of presentation.
2018-03-23T12:28:33Z myrkraverk: fair enough.
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2018-03-23T12:30:06Z jackdaniel: that's pure sophistry, you can bend many terms like that
2018-03-23T12:30:08Z myrkraverk: dim: for my lisp code, I've settled on SBCL; which can be painful enough to handle, when shipping to many boxes.
2018-03-23T12:30:15Z jackdaniel: that's not why we have "terms" for things though
2018-03-23T12:30:47Z jackdaniel: and yes, language is arbitrary
2018-03-23T12:31:21Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Realising that there is no distinction can be a useful lens.
2018-03-23T12:33:54Z jackdaniel: imho not in this case - it just introduces noise which (once again - imho) misses the point yet redirects people attention
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2018-03-23T12:37:17Z _death: dim: since you have built pgloader in Lisp, are your designs in it REPL-friendly?
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2018-03-23T12:51:18Z _death: I suspect many of them are.. and this is why pgloader may be much more useful (hackable, extensible, maintainable) than a go-pgloader.. maybe 99.9% of your users don't care, but that is the target audience you picked :)
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2018-03-23T13:17:03Z beach: schweers: I haven't decided that.  Perhaps how special variables are handled in the presence of threads.  But that's a good point.
2018-03-23T13:17:57Z schweers: is there any thread aware implementation in which threads don’t inherit the root binding of the main thread?
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2018-03-23T13:19:14Z beach: In all implementations I know of, the global binding is shared between all threads and every subsequent binding is thread specific.
2018-03-23T13:19:39Z beach: And of some implementation doesn't do it that way, it would have to change in order to be WSCL conforming.
2018-03-23T13:19:53Z schweers: by global binding you mean the root binding, not the binding active when the thread is spawned, right?
2018-03-23T13:20:06Z beach: Right.
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2018-03-23T13:21:15Z beach: dim: Yes, and as the article by Hudak and Jones shows, the cost of learning a new programming language is minuscule compared to the potential savings in productivity of choosing a language that is adapted to the task at hand.
2018-03-23T13:21:37Z schweers: there are proper studies on that?
2018-03-23T13:23:35Z myrkraverk: By CL's default tooling, are we talking about the compiler/interpreter environment, or quicklisp?
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2018-03-23T13:24:34Z beach: schweers: Only one that I know of.  They don't exist because the cost of conducting one is exorbitant.  Luckily, the US Navy did a small one once.  It is not perfect, but it gives some indications.
2018-03-23T13:24:45Z beach: schweers: Do you know the paper I am talking about?
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2018-03-23T13:25:02Z schweers: no, but I have heard the name Hudak before.
2018-03-23T13:25:15Z schweers: otherwise I wouldn’t have had to ask ;)
2018-03-23T13:25:52Z beach: He was one of the inventors of Haskell.
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2018-03-23T13:26:07Z beach: My computer needs to be rebooted, but let's see what I can find...
2018-03-23T13:26:51Z schweers: the beloved reboot cycle will probably never truly leave us, will it?
2018-03-23T13:26:58Z beach: http://www.cs.yale.edu/publications/techreports/tr1049.pdf
2018-03-23T13:27:07Z schweers: thanks
2018-03-23T13:27:12Z beach: schweers: Not until my LispOS is widely used. :)
2018-03-23T13:27:21Z schweers: your lisp OS?
2018-03-23T13:27:29Z beach: schweers: I base one of my industry talks entirely on that paper.
2018-03-23T13:27:44Z beach: schweers: Wow, so many questions today.  Hold on...
2018-03-23T13:27:52Z schweers: but in all seriousness, given a Lisp OS, there should still be cases where a reboot is inevitable, right?
2018-03-23T13:28:11Z beach: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2018-03-23T13:28:20Z TMA: schweers: there are experiments in live kernel patching in linux (both suse and redhat are developing one, iirc)
2018-03-23T13:28:25Z beach: schweers: Yes, sure, but not to install a new "kernel".
2018-03-23T13:28:26Z schweers: thanks again :)
2018-03-23T13:28:29Z dlowe: it's way more than experimental
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2018-03-23T13:28:50Z shrdlu68: Yep, I've seen the config in the kernel sources.
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2018-03-23T13:28:51Z schweers: TMA: I know, but its only for small patches, at least as far as I know
2018-03-23T13:28:51Z trafaret1: hi there
2018-03-23T13:28:58Z beach: Hello trafaret1.
2018-03-23T13:29:11Z dlowe: I would think that it's possible for any OS data structure to become corrupted in such a way that it will require a reboot to fix.
2018-03-23T13:29:28Z beach: dlowe: sure in the presence of bugs.
2018-03-23T13:29:47Z beach: dlowe: But for Unix, you have to reboot if some part of your kernel is updated.
2018-03-23T13:30:01Z beach: dlowe: ... even if your system is bug free.
2018-03-23T13:30:04Z trafaret1: I have started using emacs I would like to have lisp like ipython shell in emacs where I type some expression and it will be instantly evaluate into text file beneath expression
2018-03-23T13:30:27Z trafaret1: any clue
2018-03-23T13:30:29Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Slime.
2018-03-23T13:30:32Z beach: minion: Please tell trafaret1 about SLIME.
2018-03-23T13:30:34Z minion: SLIME: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/SLIME
2018-03-23T13:31:17Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: It's a very powerful extension to emacs.
2018-03-23T13:31:36Z beach: trafaret1: Use Quicklisp to install SLIME.
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2018-03-23T13:32:07Z beach: The system is called slime-helper or something like that.
2018-03-23T13:32:23Z trafaret1: should I install it through apt-get sorry I'm also in linux newbie
2018-03-23T13:32:28Z schweers: beach: why not just install it from (m)elpa?
2018-03-23T13:32:34Z beach: trafaret1: No.
2018-03-23T13:32:47Z beach: schweers: I don't know the answer to that.
2018-03-23T13:32:57Z trafaret1: beach: can you help me
2018-03-23T13:32:58Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Are you familiar with quicklisp?
2018-03-23T13:33:03Z trafaret1: nope
2018-03-23T13:33:22Z schweers: I just install SLIME via `use-package'
2018-03-23T13:33:24Z _death: trafaret1: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ in particular "To install and configure SLIME"
2018-03-23T13:33:33Z svillemot: trafaret1: "apt-get install slime" actually works (though you won't necessary get the latest version, depending on your distribution)
2018-03-23T13:33:36Z trafaret1: I fall in love to emacs and shortcuts in programming I don't have expirience but I want start with lisp
2018-03-23T13:33:42Z beach: trafaret1: Most people here use Quicklisp, so you can get help from anyone.
2018-03-23T13:34:28Z beach: dlowe: Do you see what I mean about having to reboot even when the system is bug free?
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2018-03-23T13:35:07Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Great! Well, quicklisp is a package manager used for CL, used to install libraries not in the language's "standard library".
2018-03-23T13:35:27Z schweers: think pip
2018-03-23T13:35:37Z svillemot: beach: why do you recommend against using apt-get for install slime? (I'm maintaining the package in Debian)
2018-03-23T13:35:41Z schweers: well, without the shell command-line
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2018-03-23T13:36:56Z beach: svillemot: Maybe my information is outdated, but I have seen several newbies in the past who do not use Quicklisp for installing SLIME and then they get outdated or incompatible versions.  I will gladly accept being corrected.
2018-03-23T13:37:02Z dlowe: beach: yes, I see.  I wonder if that's true for less monolithic kernels
2018-03-23T13:37:05Z trafaret1: for little correction I have started installing slime through apt-get and next do I need to add package from melpa into emacs?
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2018-03-23T13:37:43Z shrdlu68: Nope. I mean, you don't need to install it twice...
2018-03-23T13:37:44Z _death: svillemot: there is also the matter of support.. not everyone here uses debian
2018-03-23T13:37:49Z beach: dlowe: Restart should not be needed in most cases for the LispOS I am planning, just like we don't need to restart our Common Lisp system when we update a function.
2018-03-23T13:38:33Z svillemot: beach: sure, it can be outdated, this is just how stable distributions work
2018-03-23T13:38:52Z trafaret1: thaks all of you for help
2018-03-23T13:39:01Z beach: dlowe: And, yes, the current situation is what it is because most existing operating systems have monolithic kernels.
2018-03-23T13:39:07Z beach: trafaret1: Good luck.
2018-03-23T13:39:11Z shrdlu68: beach: I hope I live to hack on your LispOS.
2018-03-23T13:39:18Z svillemot: still, it is easy to use, since it registers the proper bits into both Emacs and ASDF
2018-03-23T13:39:22Z schweers: there are cases in which I have made a change and found it easier just to restart the lisp session than to "undefine" the relevant parts and reload code in the correct order.
2018-03-23T13:39:35Z svillemot: _death: in this precise case, trafaret1 told he was using an apt-based distribution
2018-03-23T13:40:00Z beach: schweers: Yes, there are situations like that, mainly because existing Common Lisp systems rely on that being a reasonable possibility.
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2018-03-23T13:40:09Z _death: svillemot: yes, but other people in the channel may not be able to help with debian-specific issues
2018-03-23T13:40:29Z beach: schweers: SICL (the basis for the OS I am thinking of) has first-class global environments which will make many of those situations unnecessary.
2018-03-23T13:40:37Z svillemot: _death: sure, that makes sense
2018-03-23T13:40:49Z schweers: huh.  does this go beyond the standard?
2018-03-23T13:41:15Z beach: schweers: It is compatible with the standard, but it is an extension,yes. http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
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2018-03-23T13:42:17Z schweers: so far, sandboxing is not possible, is it?
2018-03-23T13:42:35Z beach: In the standard, no, that's right.
2018-03-23T13:42:42Z beach: But first-class global environments make it possible.
2018-03-23T13:42:59Z beach: Also simplifies bootstrapping with an existing Common Lisp implementation.
2018-03-23T13:43:18Z schweers: if I understand correctly, (some?) scheme implementations have an extra argument to eval, which is an environment.  I suppose that is at least something.
2018-03-23T13:44:07Z trafaret1: does lisp can produce programms like c++ does?
2018-03-23T13:44:30Z beach: trafaret1: You mean, can it use 1960s linker technology?
2018-03-23T13:44:38Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Native binary? Yes.
2018-03-23T13:44:44Z schweers: trafaret1: if you mean “Can I produce standalone binaries?” the answer is that it depends on your implementation, but mostly, yes, you can.
2018-03-23T13:44:51Z schweers: I use sbcl and create such binaries
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2018-03-23T13:45:38Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: The distinction between language and implementation is rather clear in CL, but you'll get used to it.
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2018-03-23T13:47:32Z beach should restart his computer.  
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2018-03-23T13:51:56Z trafaret1: I worring about hard connection between lisp and pure math stuff like lambda expression and recurrsion
2018-03-23T13:52:22Z schweers: trafaret1: what exactly do you worry about?
2018-03-23T13:53:17Z trafaret1: schweers: does lisp has it's own blackholes in understanding?
2018-03-23T13:53:43Z shrdlu68: What do you mean?
2018-03-23T13:54:53Z trafaret1: shrdlu68: I mean does learning lisp require more math skill compare  to c++ for example
2018-03-23T13:55:03Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Nope.
2018-03-23T13:55:08Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Lisp's reputation precedes it. Unfortunately almost everything in that reputation is inaccurate.
2018-03-23T13:55:23Z _death: you don't even need to know the precedence rules ;)
2018-03-23T13:55:46Z schweers: as lisp covers more ground than any other programming language or runtime I have yet seen (with the possible exception of concatinative languages), there is more stuff to learn.  But in a way, this is an advantage.  I always viewed compilers as a box of black magic (and to some extent still do), but lisp lets you, the user of the language, change how compilation works.  this is something which takes some time to learn, bu
2018-03-23T13:55:46Z schweers: more than in other languages, because most other languages do not cover this topic in the languages themselves.
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2018-03-23T13:56:22Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: In many ways CL is just a language that doesn't get in the way of your coding.
2018-03-23T13:56:25Z schweers: speaking of which: I find C++ templates hard to understand.  But I have to admit that I never tried that hard :/
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2018-03-23T13:56:45Z shrdlu68: schweers: Me too.
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2018-03-23T13:57:23Z schweers: trafaret1: try not to be too put off by some things in the language and the standard that just seem weird.  Almost everything in CL is the way it is for a very good reason.
2018-03-23T13:57:37Z schweers: it just sometimes takes some time to understand the reasoning
2018-03-23T13:57:39Z loke: schweers: Almost. :-)
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2018-03-23T13:57:48Z schweers: loke: almost what?
2018-03-23T13:57:57Z schweers: ah, almost everything
2018-03-23T13:58:01Z loke: schweers: Yes :-)
2018-03-23T13:58:20Z schweers: yes, there are dark corners everywhere, but it seems to me that CL has surprisingly few such corners
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2018-03-23T13:59:59Z trafaret1: for the end does lisp can lisp programming controllers or gui application?
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2018-03-23T14:00:08Z _death: it has many dark corners, but they're not dangerous corners, unlike in C++
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2018-03-23T14:00:57Z pierpa: Controllers is hard, gui applications course it can
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2018-03-23T14:01:10Z pierpa: *if course
2018-03-23T14:01:24Z pierpa: *of course
2018-03-23T14:02:02Z schweers: Do people use lisp on microcontrollers these days?  I know that there have been such projects, but I’m not sure it can be done with current free implementations.
2018-03-23T14:02:05Z shrdlu68: _death: An example?
2018-03-23T14:03:01Z trafaret1: about emacs I have quesion. It's very powrfull tool. Are here borgs who can programming at least 10 langauges in it?
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2018-03-23T14:03:37Z pierpa: Borgs?
2018-03-23T14:03:49Z trafaret1: yeas :)
2018-03-23T14:04:01Z schweers doesn’t need 10 programming languages
2018-03-23T14:04:19Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: You don't need all that power. Learn what you need to get started, simple things like saving a file, and learn the rest on a need-to-know basis.
2018-03-23T14:04:26Z _cosmonaut_: borgs need =)
2018-03-23T14:04:41Z _death: shrdlu68: of things that are not widely and perfectly understood? nested backquotes, evaluation times, method combinations, restart-bind, the pretty printer, etc.
2018-03-23T14:05:19Z pierpa: Borgs, as in borgs , mcenroes, lendls?
2018-03-23T14:05:25Z shrdlu68: _death: Perfect examples!
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2018-03-23T14:06:09Z schweers: those things not being perfectly understood doesn’t necessarily make them dark corners of the language, if you ask me.
2018-03-23T14:06:29Z trafaret1: question for american fellows. Do you always buy books or can you download it from web and what kind of panishment for it?
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2018-03-23T14:09:21Z beach: trafaret1: Why are all us other folks excluded?
2018-03-23T14:09:41Z trafaret1: as I know us has harsh copyright policy
2018-03-23T14:09:45Z schweers owns a copy of PCL but is not american
2018-03-23T14:09:55Z beach: trafaret1: Copyright is an international convention.
2018-03-23T14:09:57Z trafaret1: idk about eu
2018-03-23T14:10:08Z trafaret1: but in russian it's meee
2018-03-23T14:10:21Z beach: Some books are available for free like PCL, PAIP, OnLisp.
2018-03-23T14:11:48Z shrdlu68: trafaret1: Americans are wealthy, generally speaking. They buy primarily because they can, not because of the law.
2018-03-23T14:13:09Z Bike: most of the harsh piracy cases are for music and movies
2018-03-23T14:13:23Z Bike: swartz excepted
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2018-03-23T14:16:04Z beach: The entire publishing model for music, books, movies, etc. is an anachronism.
2018-03-23T14:16:28Z schweers: beach: which wouldn’t be have bad, were it not so badly abused.
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2018-03-23T14:18:48Z schweers: s/have/half/
2018-03-23T14:19:25Z trafaret1: I know authtor who started gathering donats form people and  write his book but the way he had gathered a decent amount of money and now this book is free
2018-03-23T14:19:52Z beach: Well, the entire idea of writing/recording once and making money N times is wrong in my opinion.  I welcome the fact that most musicians now have to make money by working (giving concerts) instead.
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2018-03-23T14:20:10Z beach: trafaret1: That's a good idea.
2018-03-23T14:21:01Z schweers: I don’t think its ever been that different for the musicians themselves, at least those who did not produce overtly mainstream pop music.  It has been different for the content mafia^W^Wmusic labels though.
2018-03-23T14:22:11Z rumbler31: I don't know, at least about books, the cost of printing is born by someone.  If an author only gets paid once, they get paid once by whom?
2018-03-23T14:22:18Z Bike: bandcamp and stuff is nice that way
2018-03-23T14:22:37Z rumbler31: after that, what model makes sense?
2018-03-23T14:23:29Z _death: beach: maybe you have a simplistic theory of value :/
2018-03-23T14:25:34Z beach: _death: There are all kinds of possibilities for my opinions.
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2018-03-23T14:34:30Z stacksmith: The entire publishing model is _obviously_ wrong, since the only way to enforce payment is with a gun.
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2018-03-23T14:39:52Z stacksmith: 95 percent of the 'value' of purchasing a books has nothing to do with a book, but a bribe to avoid kidnapping, having your house torn apart and property confiscated, and extortion by the legal system.
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2018-03-23T14:53:38Z pierpa: hmmm...
2018-03-23T14:53:47Z stacksmith: It's just logic.
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2018-03-23T14:54:10Z dlowe: but not common lisp
2018-03-23T14:55:40Z antoszka: Let's take this over to #lispcafe.
2018-03-23T14:56:13Z stacksmith: We should've a while ago...
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2018-03-23T18:45:50Z Shinmera: Phew, finally another library out this month. It's been too long!
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2018-03-23T19:17:26Z Xach: ETOOMANYLIBRARIES
2018-03-23T19:18:46Z dlowe: ENOTNEARLYENOUGHLIBRARIES
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2018-03-23T19:19:19Z dlowe: The operation failed due to an error: Success.
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2018-03-23T19:29:11Z phoe: #justwin32things
2018-03-23T19:32:16Z jeosol: @Shinmera, what library is this?
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2018-03-23T19:51:56Z phoe: jeosol: looks like https://github.com/Shinmera/oxenfurt - or that's what his github says
2018-03-23T19:54:18Z jeosol: thanks phoe,
2018-03-23T19:57:48Z jeosol: hey guys, need some help and recommendations on cheap cloud instances. i have a challenge due in 3 weeks. I need to run 250 parallel jobs (each taking about 20 mins) in one iteration, and repeat for 50 iterations. This makes one case. I need to run about 5-10 of these cases within 3 weeks
2018-03-23T19:57:58Z phoe: jeosol: that's not a #lisp question, is it
2018-03-23T19:58:04Z jeosol: hahaha
2018-03-23T19:58:22Z jeosol: I am running lisp code, I see your point, not sure if anyone is using lisp on the cloud that is why I asked
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2018-03-23T19:58:50Z dlowe: Google is still using it to power their flight search
2018-03-23T19:59:14Z phoe: yep, ever since they bought ITA and rebranded it into Google Flights.
2018-03-23T19:59:20Z dlowe: woo ITA
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2018-03-23T20:10:04Z p_l: jeosol: well, it will be probably easiest if you can reliably package your code into something quickly deployable (docker?)
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2018-03-23T20:10:39Z p_l: jeosol: then figure out how to use cloud provider's APIs to do the work quickly with minimum fumbling on the servers
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2018-03-23T20:10:54Z p_l: Assuming the tasks to run are big enough
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2018-03-23T20:11:14Z jeosol: @p_l, I can try. I am running sbcl and lparallel library
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2018-03-23T20:11:44Z p_l: Do the instances have to communicate somehow?
2018-03-23T20:11:57Z p_l: Also, input/output concerns
2018-03-23T20:12:01Z jeosol: The small tests I did, take about 20mins, on my 64GB machine OpenSuSe, some can take 30 mins
2018-03-23T20:12:32Z jeosol: no @p_l, they are SIMD, I need to perform the same workflow repeated with different data F(X), with X changing between calls
2018-03-23T20:13:10Z jeosol: Yes, I need to gather the results back, a single result that I feed into the program, and that ends one-batch, on to the next
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2018-03-23T20:14:18Z p_l: What's the memory usage per instance?
2018-03-23T20:14:19Z jeosol: I am running as threads using lparallel, but for all cases, to get done, if I can push 250 runs at once, get results back in approximate 30 mins, I can finish a case in about a day
2018-03-23T20:15:02Z jeosol: Good question, I have the problem crash most times when dealing with large CLOS objects. So I start SBCL with large memory size.
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2018-03-23T20:15:52Z jeosol: the bottle neck is not within lisp, I make a call to another software/blackbox after writing input files for that program, do a system call, wait for the call to finish, then read the output file
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2018-03-23T20:16:47Z jeosol: lisp code is the layer that manages all logic, processing etc, but that call is the most expensive part. I can't make that part go any faster
2018-03-23T20:17:17Z jeosol: @p_l, thanks for the input so far
2018-03-23T20:17:50Z p_l: jeosol: can you possibly factor out that call?
2018-03-23T20:18:05Z p_l: as in, make it a checkpoint moment for your application?
2018-03-23T20:18:14Z jeosol: no communication at all between the runs. I start slime, run the top-level application, which then runs the job
2018-03-23T20:18:45Z jeosol: @p_l, not sure I understand, but that part that makes that call is a defun
2018-03-23T20:19:14Z jeosol: then the threading functionality takes that function with different input to creates the threads
2018-03-23T20:19:23Z p_l: Cause well, I can help you get somewhere around $5/day for 16 core, 104GB machine, if your software could survive random stops and preferably finish within 24h per execution
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2018-03-23T20:20:59Z p_l: that blackbox you mentioned is probably hardest part to move
2018-03-23T20:21:35Z jeosol: yes, it is. It is a third party vendor software, only exe available
2018-03-23T20:21:38Z p_l: from my understanding, you have a pattern of <N*lisp threads> -> 1 blackbox -> <N*lisp threads>
2018-03-23T20:21:55Z jeosol: yeah more or less
2018-03-23T20:22:34Z jeosol: no license restrictions through on the blackbox, each thread gets to run it's job
2018-03-23T20:24:39Z p_l: jeosol: is it a windows program?
2018-03-23T20:24:55Z p_l: also, I understand you then have N*lisp threads calling N instances of the blackbox?
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2018-03-23T20:25:31Z jeosol: my whole setup is in linux, but that program is a windows program, so I cheat by running it with wine
2018-03-23T20:25:52Z jeosol: @p_l, yeah, correct
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2018-03-23T20:30:58Z p_l: if it's a one off job, building a deploy image (docker might be good option) and then grabbing pretty much any cloud provider with big enough options should be good enough
2018-03-23T20:31:12Z p_l: if you want larger scale... well, I have ideas
2018-03-23T20:32:49Z jeosol: what do you mean by big enough?
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2018-03-23T20:33:03Z p_l: jeosol: RAM, CPU
2018-03-23T20:33:04Z jeosol: memory size?
2018-03-23T20:33:08Z jeosol: ok
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2018-03-23T20:33:43Z p_l: it's important to get a grasp on resource usage, especially as different cloud providers have different "weights" to which resource costs how much
2018-03-23T20:34:03Z p_l: AWS for example will skin you on Elastic Block Storage aka durable disks
2018-03-23T20:34:39Z p_l: and then nom whatever money you have left on memory which you'll use to buffer the slow EBS ;)
2018-03-23T20:35:33Z jeosol: I see, when I asked the question before, I was told AWS is expensive, and may be able to get a reasonable size box for 30 a month on hivevelocity or sth link that.
2018-03-23T20:35:48Z jeosol: I will run the large case, and get an idea of much resource each job takes
2018-03-23T20:36:29Z p_l: jeosol: small providers have different issues
2018-03-23T20:36:30Z jeosol: I think 250 jobs at once may be too much, if I can leave with say batches of 50, that may not be too bad.
2018-03-23T20:36:44Z p_l: AWS *is* expensive but that doesn't mean it's too expensive etc.
2018-03-23T20:37:40Z p_l: I like Google Cloud Platform not just for the fact that it's usually cheaper than AWS, but also because their default networking mode leaves everyone else in the dust
2018-03-23T20:37:40Z jeosol: p_l: I see. realiability is also important as I don't have enough time. I am extensively testing on my box, if I move somewhere I don't want to job to fail as least on the LISP+SBCL side
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2018-03-23T20:38:02Z p_l: jeosol: that's why I stress the "packaging" part
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2018-03-23T20:38:07Z jeosol: *meant not on the LISP side
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2018-03-23T20:38:29Z p_l: if you make it into something that can be quickly deployed without worrying about setting the OS etc. you'll have much better time testing and setting things up
2018-03-23T20:38:39Z jeosol: any links that could be me with that deploy image thing.
2018-03-23T20:38:40Z jeosol: I see
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2018-03-23T20:39:16Z p_l: these days docker is popular (if flawed) option to package stuff with minimum fuss
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2018-03-23T20:39:58Z p_l: having well-done package is better than slapping together a docker container, but I assume you want to get the job done fast and that it's not going to be some production monster (and even then it can be fixed)
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2018-03-23T20:40:50Z jeosol: I will like to have it in the cloud at some point with robust solution, web app, etc, but for now, I want to just run the cases for the challenge, so a quickly dirty solution is better
2018-03-23T20:41:34Z jeosol: but if well-done package is a few days, and will save headache, then it's the way to go
2018-03-23T20:41:56Z p_l: if you handle the packaging part well enough that running the code can be dropped to the level of "one line to execute on nearly any random Ubuntu install"
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2018-03-23T20:42:08Z p_l: then pretty much any VPS host will be good enough
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2018-03-23T20:42:21Z p_l: so long as they provide options with enough CPU and memory
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2018-03-23T20:45:08Z jeosol: by packing you mean the whole shebang, sbcl, blackbox, etc, and possible some executable generated to run on command line?
2018-03-23T20:45:28Z p_l: yeah, probably put into docker image that you can then easily upload and run
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2018-03-23T20:45:49Z p_l: (you don't need to upload your image to Docker Hub or anywhere else, you can export it into tarball, upload to server then import
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2018-03-23T20:46:11Z p_l: Docker would help to avoid library conflicts and the like
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2018-03-23T20:46:13Z jeosol: that's the best option. usually it was always a pain for me, moving files, installing, etc
2018-03-23T20:46:25Z p_l: it's a PITA for many cases :)
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2018-03-23T20:46:57Z p_l: your program sounds like straightforward compute thing, so packaging and setup is going to dominate workload
2018-03-23T20:47:30Z p_l: and if you really want to get cheap on the cloud, making your workload easily transferable, and making it so that you only actually run when you have your program running, is important
2018-03-23T20:48:49Z jeosol: you are 100% right. is the packaging and setup that is the most work. I tried to make everything self contained. I only need sbcl, quicklisp, ..., blackbox, and python libs. but I have been doing all this by hand
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2018-03-23T20:49:36Z p_l: and docker by packaging the whole of a linux distro will also make it easier to deal with dependencies you might have missed (wine? ;D)
2018-03-23T20:50:00Z jeosol: that is true, I forgot about wine? blackbox won't run
2018-03-23T20:50:02Z jeosol: oh men
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2018-03-23T20:51:15Z p_l: jeosol: does it need graphics to run?
2018-03-23T20:51:24Z p_l: (might be non-trivial to find out)
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2018-03-23T20:53:40Z jeosol: not really, if I understand. No GPU/Cuda or anything. I only make plots to see results sometimes, but I disable all that when doing the heavy workload
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2018-03-23T20:54:37Z p_l: jeosol: you might not notice the blackbox calling graphic-dependant functions (it might not show a visible window for one)
2018-03-23T20:54:52Z jeosol: yeah you right.
2018-03-23T20:55:09Z p_l: try running it using wine from shell after running `unset DISPLAY`
2018-03-23T20:55:25Z jeosol: ok
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2018-03-23T20:57:55Z jeosol: it ran ok, but usually i get some random windows socket related error at start of call. fixme:heap:RtlSetHeapInformation 0x240000 0 0x23fd40 4 stub, fixme:winsock:convert_socktype_w2u unhandled Windows socket type 5, etc
2018-03-23T20:57:59Z jeosol: but it does run ok
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2018-03-23T21:02:42Z p_l: one less thing to worry about :)
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2018-03-23T21:06:51Z jeosol: p_l: thanks. I can't get you beer if you drink, but the pointers and help are appreciated.
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2018-03-23T21:07:14Z p_l:  don't worry, the doctor forbid me from drinking anyway :P
2018-03-23T21:07:15Z jeosol: p_l: now I need to look into docker, etc, and packing
2018-03-23T21:07:23Z jeosol: hahaha,
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2018-03-23T21:07:51Z p_l: jeosol: it was hard to avoid *over* engineering a solution for you :P
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2018-03-23T21:09:07Z jeosol: I will probably still looking to those more robust options later, but my primary need is just getting the code to run. I am testing now to make sure no problems with Lisp/SBCL end of things
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2018-03-24T01:18:25Z inaimathi: Can anyone point me to a quick example for how to use `qlot` to install a package in a local `quicklisp` instance?
2018-03-24T01:18:39Z inaimathi: From inside Lisp, I mean, not from raw command line.
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2018-03-24T01:19:16Z inaimathi: I'm trying `(qlot:with-local-quicklisp (#P"/home/inaimathi/.cl-notebook/") (qlot:install :skippy))` and getting "Component not found" errors
2018-03-24T01:20:09Z inaimathi: (ditto with `qlot:quickload` instead of `qlot:install`)
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2018-03-24T03:07:48Z johnnymacs: I have read that lisp has been very performant on quantum computers.
2018-03-24T03:09:26Z vtomole: jonnymacs: Rigetti uses Lisp in there software stack. You can't actually run lisp on a quantum computer, but it is used to build toolchains for quantum computers.
2018-03-24T03:09:32Z vtomole: *their
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2018-03-24T03:11:19Z johnnymacs: So if there was a language that could run on a quantum computer it could do something lisp could not do.
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2018-03-24T03:12:51Z siraben: johnnymacs: Quantum computers cannot compute anything more than an existing computer can
2018-03-24T03:13:22Z siraben: johnnymacs: It may do things more quickly in certain tasks (e.g. number factorization, SAT solving, search problems), but it can't solve the halting problem
2018-03-24T03:13:48Z Bike: but what if it runs every program at once through superposition so that i don't have to learn how quantum annealing works
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2018-03-24T03:23:11Z johnnymacs: does god play dice?
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2018-03-24T03:23:41Z fouric: Question: I have a CLOS class foo and a subclass bar. How do I get the initial form of a bar slot to be the initial value of a (different) foo slot?
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2018-03-24T03:24:22Z jeosol: @pierpa, @Bike, @Stacksmith, for their help last night, I was able to resolve the parallel functionality
2018-03-24T03:25:03Z Bike: oh, nice.
2018-03-24T03:25:17Z jeosol: really appreciate the help man
2018-03-24T03:25:17Z Bike: fouric: you mean you want one slot's initform to be based on another slot's value?
2018-03-24T03:25:39Z fouric: Bike: Yes, that. Sorry.
2018-03-24T03:25:44Z jeosol: I now have speed up factor of at least 3 with a 2-second evaluation case. Should be higher for the main problem
2018-03-24T03:25:52Z Bike: you'd have to do it in an :after method on shared-initialize, or similar stuff
2018-03-24T03:25:56Z Bike: :initform won't cut it
2018-03-24T03:26:37Z fouric: Hm...
2018-03-24T03:26:43Z fouric goes to read the PCL chapter on methods
2018-03-24T03:26:45Z fouric: (again)
2018-03-24T03:27:02Z fouric: ...oh
2018-03-24T03:27:34Z fouric: I think that a similar problem was posed and solved, and I just missed it.
2018-03-24T03:27:39Z fouric: Let me try that.
2018-03-24T03:27:42Z fouric: (sorry)
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2018-03-24T03:29:41Z jeosol: is there a command to view threads in my slime session and subsequently kill threads an lparallel worker?
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2018-03-24T03:47:52Z patrixl: Hi Siraben
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2018-03-24T03:51:19Z khrbt: jeosol: (bt:all-threads) ?
2018-03-24T03:52:36Z jeosol: Thanks khrbt
2018-03-24T03:53:08Z jeosol: that worked, but I can't kill the lparallel worker, so I switched to using bt-threads directly.
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2018-03-24T03:54:02Z jeosol: I had one lparallel worker running in the background and when I rand (bt:all-threads), I still the lparallel threads running and printing out
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2018-03-24T04:39:29Z pierpa: jeosol: glad to hear you made progresses
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2018-03-24T05:06:01Z vtomole: clhs eq
2018-03-24T05:06:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
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2018-03-24T05:37:00Z jeosol: @pierpa, thanks for your help man. The parallel functional is running ok. I am trying to get cloud instances to do the runs. I am cleaning out the code to make sure it does not fail on the lisp/sbcl slide
2018-03-24T05:37:02Z jeosol: *side
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2018-03-24T05:40:01Z johnnymacs: does god play dice?
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2018-03-24T05:44:19Z pierpa: Define god (but in #lispcafe please)
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2018-03-24T06:07:28Z jack_rabbit: Is there a reason quicklisp doesn't like symlinks in the local-projects directory?
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2018-03-24T06:10:18Z khrbt: jack_rabbit: what did you try and is there an error message?
2018-03-24T06:11:10Z jack_rabbit: I just symlinked a project into the local-projects directory. Just says "couldn't find package whatever"
2018-03-24T06:11:15Z jack_rabbit: Copying the dir works.
2018-03-24T06:11:23Z Bike: (ql:register-local-projects)
2018-03-24T06:12:15Z jack_rabbit: I see. Thanks.
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2018-03-24T06:13:10Z didi: jack_rabbit: I like to use ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d
2018-03-24T06:13:45Z didi: ASDF's manual explains it.
2018-03-24T06:14:01Z jack_rabbit: didi, interesting. I'll have to take a look. Thanks.
2018-03-24T06:14:18Z didi: jack_rabbit: np
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2018-03-24T06:26:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-24T06:30:46Z dtornabene: good morning
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2018-03-24T08:46:52Z oleo: morning
2018-03-24T08:47:39Z beach: Hello oleo.
2018-03-24T08:47:48Z phoe: Morning, everyone
2018-03-24T08:47:54Z beach: Hello phoe.
2018-03-24T08:50:26Z jackdaniel: minion: chant greetings
2018-03-24T08:50:26Z minion: MORE QUICKLY
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2018-03-24T10:44:28Z earl-ducaine: I'm running into a peculiar error with cffi:with-foreign-slots.  The message: Attempt to bind a special variable with SYMBOL-MACROLET: WIDTH
2018-03-24T10:45:04Z earl-ducaine: looking at the expansion the following is a minimal example of that type of error:
2018-03-24T10:45:06Z earl-ducaine: (defparameter WIDTH 1)  (SYMBOL-MACROLET ((WIDTH 2)) (FORMAT T "width: ~d~%" width))
2018-03-24T10:45:15Z |3b|: you probably did (defvar width ...) or (defparameter width ..) ats ome point
2018-03-24T10:45:24Z earl-ducaine: This is the full code: https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/786b3c616ee014a7359e554619322924
2018-03-24T10:45:35Z |3b|: clhs symbol-macrolet
2018-03-24T10:45:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm
2018-03-24T10:46:30Z |3b|: "If an attempt is made to bind a symbol that is defined as a global variable, an error of type program-error is signaled. "
2018-03-24T10:46:39Z earl-ducaine: Yes, so the problem seems to be that if you have a special variable that has the same name as you've assigned to one of your structure slots, you get the error.
2018-03-24T10:46:51Z |3b|: one of the reasons we use ** on names of special variables and ++ for constants
2018-03-24T10:46:53Z earl-ducaine: Surely that must be a bug in cffi, yes?
2018-03-24T10:47:05Z |3b|: not much it can do
2018-03-24T10:48:04Z |3b|: same as cl:with-slots
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2018-03-24T10:49:59Z |3b|: possibly with-foreign-slots should allow explicitly naming the variable  so you could work around that, but not really a 'bug'
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2018-03-24T10:51:49Z earl-ducaine: Holy crap. I'd never noticed that before.  I'd always assumed that with-slots created a lexical binding for the slot name.
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2018-03-24T10:53:06Z |3b|: no portable way to make a lexical binding that overrides a global special declamation, so it can't do that (without being a special form at least), and it would still have to figure out how to get the writes back to the slot
2018-03-24T10:53:48Z didi: Constants are a weird thing to have in a highly interactive environment. I always try to redefine them at some point.
2018-03-24T10:54:05Z |3b|: yeah, i just don't even bother with them at all
2018-03-24T10:54:23Z didi: *nod* I gave up on them.
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2018-03-24T10:54:33Z |3b|: maybe if i can prove that some specific thing actually affects performance i might change it to a constant
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2018-03-24T11:25:49Z stacksmith: |3b|: SBCL definitely compiles shorter code if you use constants.  Of course it's not worth it unless it's in a tight loop...
2018-03-24T11:26:40Z stacksmith: didi: it's for things like pi - things you really do not intend to change.
2018-03-24T11:27:22Z stacksmith: alexandria's define-constant is worth it.
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2018-03-24T11:29:09Z _death: sbcl also provides defglobal
2018-03-24T11:32:52Z Shinmera: Any idea why Drakma might be interpreting a stream with a wrong encoding even if I explicitly specify :external-format-in as :utf-8 AND the server returns a conte-type with charset utf-8?
2018-03-24T11:33:03Z Shinmera: *content
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2018-03-24T11:37:53Z |3b|: wrong encoding, and not just returning binary?
2018-03-24T11:38:05Z Shinmera: No, other clients chew it fine.
2018-03-24T11:38:25Z Shinmera: dexador and curl both work as expected.
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2018-03-24T11:38:43Z |3b|: i mean it errors or returns garbage text, rather than returning an octet vector
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2018-03-24T11:38:54Z Shinmera: yes, text is garbage
2018-03-24T11:39:39Z Shinmera: Above is dexador, below is drakma https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVME1RPT0=
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2018-03-24T11:42:14Z _death: (trace drakma::determine-body-format)
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2018-03-24T11:43:11Z Shinmera: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/749#749
2018-03-24T11:44:36Z _death: so, it's not a text content-type
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2018-03-24T11:45:28Z Shinmera: Ah, gah, I guess I forgot to push application/json to the variable.
2018-03-24T11:46:01Z Shinmera: Okey, right, that fixes it. Thanks!
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2018-03-24T12:42:52Z Shinmera: Colleen: define lisp
2018-03-24T12:42:52Z Colleen: There is no applicable method for the generic function
2018-03-24T12:42:52Z Colleen: #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION OXENFURT:PHONETIC-SPELLING (1)>
2018-03-24T12:42:53Z Colleen: when called with arguments
2018-03-24T12:42:53Z Colleen: (#<OXENFURT:LEXICAL-ENTRY "lisp" EN>).
2018-03-24T12:42:58Z Shinmera: GAH
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2018-03-24T12:44:48Z Shinmera: Colleen: define lisp
2018-03-24T12:44:49Z Colleen: lisp /lɪsp/
2018-03-24T12:44:50Z Colleen: (noun): a speech defect in which s is pronounced like th in thick and z is pronounced like th in this
2018-03-24T12:44:50Z Colleen: (verb): speak with a lisp
2018-03-24T12:44:50Z Colleen: (noun): a high-level computer programming language devised for list processing.
2018-03-24T12:44:52Z Shinmera: There we go
2018-03-24T12:45:45Z _death: maybe condense to one line
2018-03-24T12:46:06Z Shinmera: Makes it much harder to read and would overflow IRC limit pretty quick anyhow.
2018-03-24T12:46:39Z _death: yes, but the latter is a symptom of the problem
2018-03-24T12:47:09Z random-nick: iirc IRC only allows 512 characters per command
2018-03-24T12:47:11Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what you're telling me to do. I can't exactly shorten the definitions.
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2018-03-24T12:48:01Z _death: not telling you what to do.. just my thoughts
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2018-03-24T12:58:24Z beach: vtomole: I answered your PM
2018-03-24T12:58:56Z _death: for example, a bot could have a "personality" (changing every week? :) and pick a definition according to it..
2018-03-24T12:59:52Z _death: or it could try to determine the right one from the context
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2018-03-24T13:01:46Z Shinmera: That first example sounds awful, and the second one sounds very hard and prone to errors.
2018-03-24T13:01:55Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: iirc, you can set your own conversion routine, which is what I did in one project.
2018-03-24T13:02:13Z myrkraverk: and therefore forcibly do whatever en/de-coding you actually want.
2018-03-24T13:02:29Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: Setting application/json in the text-content-types fixed my issue.
2018-03-24T13:02:53Z myrkraverk: ok.
2018-03-24T13:02:54Z _death: Shinmera: gnarl favors "errors" ;)
2018-03-24T13:03:20Z myrkraverk: In other news, apparently lldb can't print a variable if it's called "new" in C.
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2018-03-24T13:03:43Z myrkraverk: I don't know if that's a facedesk moment, or not.
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2018-03-24T13:50:13Z fourier: anyone about limitatons of SLY in contrast to SLIME? Just installed and it looks real good. Any reasons not to switch to it from SLIME?
2018-03-24T13:50:41Z makomo: hello
2018-03-24T13:51:09Z makomo: Xach: i found this answer of yours https://stackoverflow.com/a/22796292 that references a dead link. web.archive also doesn't give me back anything
2018-03-24T13:51:32Z makomo: Xach: would this be the original paper? https://web.archive.org/web/20070204110210/https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/files/movitz.pdf
2018-03-24T13:51:48Z makomo: (by the above web archive comment i was referring specifically to the link you gave in the answer)
2018-03-24T13:52:33Z makomo: section 2.5 seems to mention multiple values so i guess that's it?
2018-03-24T13:53:04Z makomo: Xach: ermmm, i have no idea why the link works now...
2018-03-24T13:53:18Z makomo: maybe i misclicked or something, i have no idea what happened
2018-03-24T13:53:22Z makomo: sorry about that
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2018-03-24T13:59:58Z vtomole: beach: Thank you.
2018-03-24T14:00:18Z |3b|: fourier: last time i looked sly had no equivalent of slime-sprof
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2018-03-24T14:00:42Z |3b|: (which is a reason not to switch for me, but may or may not matter to others)
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2018-03-24T14:25:25Z fourier: I see
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2018-03-24T14:40:21Z beach: Hah!  There was a bug in the incremental parser for Second Climacs.  Once the bug fixed, the parser is 10 times as fast as we claimed in our ELS submission.  For a buffer with 120 top-level forms, each 10 lines long, inserting and deleting an opening parenthesis at the beginning (this the worst-case scenario) takes less than 2ms for the parser to handle.  And there are no doubt even more optimizations possible.
2018-03-24T14:40:56Z beach: So we will supply more and better benchmark results for the final version of the paper.
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2018-03-24T15:33:46Z pierpa: :)
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2018-03-24T15:58:19Z flip214: beach: what was the bug? commit link?
2018-03-24T15:58:36Z flip214: just curious what would have a 10x impact...
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2018-03-24T16:02:43Z beach: flip214: A parse result indicating end-of-file was stuck in the data structure and prevented the cache from working properly.
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2018-03-24T16:08:45Z beach: flip214: So instead of returning cached parse results, it parsed the buffer again.
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2018-03-24T17:05:21Z pierpa: beach: do you use some kind of packrat parser?  Is the paper already available?
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2018-03-24T17:14:38Z equwal: test, please disregard
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2018-03-24T17:29:58Z pjb: beach: way to prepare for a Steve Jobs presentation!  Others did it in 100, we it in 10.  Oh, and one last thing, actually we did it in 1!
2018-03-24T17:30:09Z pjb: beach: this time you have to wear a turtleneck!
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2018-03-24T17:33:50Z beach: pierpa: I use READ, the only true parser for Common Lisp. :)
2018-03-24T17:34:19Z beach: pierpa: The latest version is here: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf but it is still not the final version.
2018-03-24T17:34:36Z beach: pierpa: The referees wanted more benchmarks, so that is what I have been working on so far.
2018-03-24T17:35:36Z beach: pjb: Yeah.  It will be something like that.
2018-03-24T17:36:04Z pierpa: aha! so you cache whole top-level exprs, I guess. I thought you cache at a fiber grain
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2018-03-24T17:36:27Z beach: I also cache nested expressions.
2018-03-24T17:36:54Z pierpa: Uff. *I thought you csched at finer grsin.
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2018-03-24T17:37:04Z beach: sort of, yes. :)
2018-03-24T17:37:09Z beach: pierpa: I understood.
2018-03-24T17:37:33Z pierpa: Ok. You understand what I should have typed :)
2018-03-24T17:37:34Z beach: Expressions form a tree, and when a top-level expression is modified, I rescue the sub-expression that are still valid.
2018-03-24T17:37:43Z beach: Yes, I did.
2018-03-24T17:38:08Z pierpa: Ok
2018-03-24T17:38:47Z beach: So as it turns out, it is very fast.  See pages 4 and 5.
2018-03-24T17:39:21Z beach: And this is despite the fact that I use Gray streams, so I have several generic-function calls for each character read.
2018-03-24T17:40:07Z pierpa: Yep. Good result.
2018-03-24T17:40:18Z beach: Another piece of evidence that the right data structure with no particular micro optimizations beats the wrong data structure with lots of micro optimizations.
2018-03-24T17:40:19Z pjb: beach: do you build a dependency graph between toplevel forms?
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2018-03-24T17:41:09Z pjb: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (set-macro-character #\' (quote some-strange-quote-syntax)))  (defun foo () 'foo)
2018-03-24T17:41:22Z beach: You are funny.
2018-03-24T17:41:41Z beach: pjb: Currently I only parse them and compute indentation.  Later, I will try to use an incremental version of my first-class global environments between each top-level form and actually call the compiler at typing speed.
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2018-03-24T17:42:35Z beach: You are funny, just like some of the referees.  I mean, I do orders of magnitude better than any existing editor.  And I get harassed for not solving the halting problem at typing speed.
2018-03-24T17:42:43Z pjb: :-)
2018-03-24T17:43:08Z beach: So, yes, there are still cases that I can't handle, and some that I never will be able to handle.
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2018-03-24T17:43:23Z pjb: Well, there are reader macros that allows to embed different programming languages.  You just have to be careful with them, (avoiding indenting python or pascal code like lisp code).
2018-03-24T17:43:35Z beach: #.(incf *some-variable*) for instance.
2018-03-24T17:44:25Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-24T17:44:43Z beach: Custom reader macros are handled correctly, but I can't do much with what they return.
2018-03-24T17:44:46Z pierpa: Perhaps pjb *was* one of the refeeres... :)
2018-03-24T17:44:52Z beach: That's possible.
2018-03-24T17:44:56Z pjb: Ultimately, there's the problem of #+sbcl #-sbcl, where you could have to ident differently a form, depending on the implementation…  This is a problem for all the docstring parsers I've seen.
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2018-03-24T17:45:51Z beach: I don't plan to process forms that are read with read-ignore (is that what it is called?).
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2018-03-24T17:46:14Z pjb: beach: you can always say that what is difficult for your program to process, is difficult for the human programmer to read, so it ought to be written differently.
2018-03-24T17:46:34Z beach: Sure, I can do that.
2018-03-24T17:47:06Z beach: There is a phase where I try to match up the parse results with the expression returned by the reader.  If they are too strange, I don't compute indentation.
2018-03-24T17:47:39Z beach: Dinner.  I'll be back later.
2018-03-24T17:48:54Z pjb: Bon appetit!
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2018-03-24T19:04:39Z Guest43479: Hey - just installed sbcl via homebrew on osx. I used `which sbcl` and used that with the shebang in the header `#!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script` but it doesn't appear to load properly when run. Running this just via the command line works fine `/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script filename.lisp` not sure if anyone else had run into this?
2018-03-24T19:05:11Z Guest43479: I've made python scripts with the shebang that run just fine as well
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2018-03-24T19:29:44Z malice: So how does it behave?
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2018-03-24T19:40:03Z Guest43479: ./compile.lisp: line 3: syntax error near unexpected token `;;' ./compile.lisp: line 3: `;; testing comment'
2018-03-24T19:40:28Z Guest43479: Just throws syntax errors
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2018-03-24T19:44:32Z malice: Did you try it with the default shebang header?
2018-03-24T19:47:43Z malice: If all you want to do is run a script, you might also want to check out the Roswell project: https://github.com/roswell/roswell
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2018-03-24T19:51:34Z malice: Also, since you're on mac, try to change the shebang for nonsense and see if it still works this way. On my system, giving wrong path shows "wrong interpreter[...]"; it might be that your interpreter is not loading properly
2018-03-24T19:51:44Z malice: (or you might have syntax errors)
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2018-03-24T19:55:02Z Guest43479: Interesting, thanks, yeah I'm getting a bad interpreter with nonsense for the shebang
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2018-03-24T19:58:59Z Guest43479: Its not too big of a deal since `sbcl --script filename.lisp` is working, more curious than anything else
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2018-03-24T20:29:52Z stacksmith: I am using CFFI to manage a foreign buffer. It contains multiple instances of a C structure at offsets not known until runtime (and changing often).  WITH-FOREIGN-SLOTS seems to be a dead end as it has no provision to take an additional has no provision to take an additional offset - And it would have to be a dynamic offset as I need to access multiple instances of this structure...  Any suggestions?
2018-03-24T20:30:44Z stacksmith: (sorry for redundant repetition - a paste error...)
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2018-03-24T20:32:15Z Bike: er, you mean the offest of a slot within the structure changes?
2018-03-24T20:32:43Z stacksmith: No, the structures themselves are sprinkled at different offsets in the buffer.
2018-03-24T20:32:59Z stacksmith: I am reluctant to use inc-pointer after learning that it conses up new pointers every time - I would prefer to avoid that...
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2018-03-24T20:36:54Z stacksmith: Basically, I need the symbol-macrolets generated by with-foreign-slots to add an offset of the structure itself to the pointer...
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2018-03-24T20:41:08Z Bike: with-foreign-slots expands into foreign-slot-value which expands into inc-pointer
2018-03-24T20:42:52Z stacksmith: In my SBCL it expands to (foreign-struct-slot-value ...) which in turn turns into (mem-ref ...)
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2018-03-24T20:46:00Z stacksmith: I will restate my question:  I have a custom way of doing this, but it seemed silly to have to define structures when CFFI already does that.  Perhaps it's not so silly and I should continue without using CFFI for this.
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2018-03-24T20:56:22Z stacksmith: I mean "continue without using CFFI structures."
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2018-03-24T20:58:06Z fe[nl]ix: stacksmith: use inc-pointer
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2018-03-24T20:59:50Z stacksmith: fe[nl]ix: I can't figure out how much overhead it incurs as it goes deep into transforms and whatnot...
2018-03-24T21:01:35Z stacksmith: And I have a 3-line macro that does it with no overhead...
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2018-03-24T21:03:06Z fe[nl]ix: stacksmith: use the default way and switch to a custom thing only if it proves to be slow, measurably
2018-03-24T21:03:28Z fe[nl]ix: you've already wasted too much time on this
2018-03-24T21:04:03Z stacksmith: That is sensible.
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2018-03-24T21:52:58Z phoe: Does anyone have a macro that's like LET except it allows one to specify types for each variable as well?
2018-03-24T21:53:06Z phoe: Something that expands into a normal LET and then DECLARE TYPE.
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2018-03-24T21:54:54Z Bike: think i've heard of one, but i couldn't tell you where to get it
2018-03-24T21:55:00Z Bike: by itself that's like  a three line macro obviously
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2018-03-24T22:07:59Z Shinmera:  I'm sure things like let+ and the three hundred other uber-let thingies can do that
2018-03-24T22:08:22Z phoe: Shinmera: strangely, neither BIND nor LET+ seem to do this
2018-03-24T22:08:46Z Shinmera: Really?
2018-03-24T22:09:03Z phoe: yes. they seem to be much much more about destructuring than they are about typedness.
2018-03-24T22:09:19Z phoe: or at least, that's what it looks like.
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2018-03-24T22:34:16Z khrbt: lastlog nest
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2018-03-24T23:47:22Z phoe: I might be silly and not seeing something, but: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/751#751
2018-03-24T23:47:31Z phoe: SBCL tells me that I define a variable called SHAPES and never use it afterwards.
2018-03-24T23:47:44Z phoe: But I use it, in line 9.
2018-03-24T23:47:52Z Shinmera: phoe: with-slots-bound might be shadowing it
2018-03-24T23:47:55Z Shinmera: try expanding that
2018-03-24T23:47:59Z phoe: Right. Thanks.
2018-03-24T23:48:12Z phoe: Correct. Thanks.
2018-03-24T23:49:35Z phoe: Sigh, my Lisp became rusty again....
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2018-03-25T00:39:17Z pierpa_: are you catching yourself writing (defun phoe (x) match x { Some(50) => println!("Got 50"); (otherwise (princ "got something else!"))}) ?
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2018-03-25T00:43:34Z p_l: pierpa_: ... ouch
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2018-03-25T00:44:30Z pierpa_: :)
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2018-03-25T03:46:05Z drmeister: How do I write an after method for a slot writer?
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2018-03-25T03:46:33Z drmeister: (defmethod (setf representations) :after (value (self nglwidget)) ...)  ?
2018-03-25T03:47:34Z Bike: yeah.
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2018-03-25T04:19:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-25T04:29:04Z asarch: Bonjour monsieur Beach, comment allez-vous? :-)
2018-03-25T04:29:29Z beach: I am fine thanks, but that's off topic. :)
2018-03-25T04:30:32Z beach: I am still very pleased with the blazing fast incremental parser we now have for Second Climacs.
2018-03-25T04:33:25Z asarch: That's great!
2018-03-25T04:34:19Z beach: Yeah.  And it again shows that the right data structure (even without any low-level optimization) beats a mediocre data structure with lots of micro optimization.
2018-03-25T04:34:48Z beach: Perhaps this is a good time to point out that it is pure Common Lisp.  No FFI involved.
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2018-03-25T04:40:05Z asarch: Do you have some kind of RFC's for that?
2018-03-25T04:41:11Z asarch: Drafts about the next to implement in CL?
2018-03-25T04:41:20Z beach: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2018-03-25T04:41:34Z beach: That one?
2018-03-25T04:41:49Z beach: Or more generally for Second Climacs?
2018-03-25T04:42:19Z beach: Very preliminary documentation: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf
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2018-03-25T04:46:49Z beach: asarch: Not sure what you are asking for.  Can you be more specific?
2018-03-25T04:51:24Z asarch: For example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545
2018-03-25T04:52:17Z beach: Yes, I know what an RFC is.  But I don't know what subject you are interested in.  Incremental parsing?  Second Climacs?  Using good data structure?  Not using FFI?
2018-03-25T04:52:18Z asarch: I mean, the new technology that will eventually available in CL
2018-03-25T04:52:35Z beach: There is no new technology here.
2018-03-25T04:52:52Z beach: Only the implementation in pure Common Lisp of a particular data structure.
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2018-03-25T04:53:04Z asarch: Oh :-(
2018-03-25T04:53:06Z beach: Nothing to add to Common Lisp.
2018-03-25T04:53:49Z asarch: I thought there was a centralized place where someone could send "suggestions" about a specif topic and then eventually be part of the standard
2018-03-25T04:54:15Z asarch: Why?
2018-03-25T04:54:22Z asarch: Is it abandoned?
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2018-03-25T04:54:50Z beach: That's a different topic entirely.
2018-03-25T04:56:14Z beach: I have a project called WSCL with the purpose of creating a standard with fewer cases of undefined behavior.  But the only suggests I take are in that direction.  I do not intend to add anything to the language.
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2018-03-25T05:13:50Z asarch: I see
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2018-03-25T05:57:55Z SaganMan: Morning peeps
2018-03-25T05:58:01Z SaganMan: Happy Weekend!
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2018-03-25T06:07:50Z beach: I am not sure how we should address the concerns of some of these referees.  The editor that is mostly used for Common Lisp code is Emacs.  When it parses Common Lisp code, it does not take into account the readtable, the package, the role of an expression, or anything like that.
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2018-03-25T06:07:52Z beach: Our incremental parser does a much better job.  But then the referees worry about what happens when there is a form in the buffer that changes the readtable, so that the wrong readtable might be used for the rest of the buffer.  So essentially they are criticizing us for not solving the halting problem at typing speed, whereas apparently what Emacs does is acceptable.
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2018-03-25T07:30:03Z myrkraverk: what referees is beach talking about?
2018-03-25T07:31:08Z Shinmera: the ELS committee
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2018-03-25T09:55:55Z phoe: beach: "we at least handle the readtables, as compared to emacs"
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2018-03-25T10:04:37Z pierpa: Anyone knows what the lisp machine editor does wrt non-default readtables? Like emacs or better?  (I have the manuals, but not at arm's reach. I will check them later)
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2018-03-25T10:20:34Z beach: phoe: Yeah.  I'll think of something to write.  Right now I am still amused.
2018-03-25T10:21:12Z beach: pierpa: I would be interested in that information.
2018-03-25T10:21:54Z beach: Interestingly, no referee thought this information had to be included.
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2018-03-25T10:26:20Z phoe: beach: well, you can do your research now. See how LM editors did in these cases.
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2018-03-25T10:33:37Z phoe: Anyway, you're fine to say that you won't handle that case. No one previously seemed to solve the halting problem at typing speed, so at least your solution doesn't worsen the situation.
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2018-03-25T10:47:22Z _death: (defun haltp (program) (y-or-n-p "Here is ~S; Does it halt?" program))
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2018-03-25T10:47:54Z pjb: (incf _death)
2018-03-25T10:48:05Z pjb: this is the future: collaboration between AI and HI.
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2018-03-25T10:48:35Z Shinmera: I mean, for sufficiently easy programs the computer can answer that question just as well as a human.
2018-03-25T10:48:45Z Shinmera: For sufficiently complex ones I don't know if either can :)
2018-03-25T10:49:28Z pjb: Shinmera: anyways, it's not the right question to ask.  The remaining universe life is only 15 billion years.
2018-03-25T10:49:58Z pjb: The right question to ask, for programmers, is whether the program finishes in time for the customer to pay us.
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2018-03-25T10:50:58Z pjb: Do haltp is useless. with-timeout is useful.
2018-03-25T10:51:03Z pjb: s/Do/So/
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2018-03-25T10:53:15Z _death: many times the customer is interested in programs that never halt
2018-03-25T10:53:40Z pjb: Indeed. And the funny thing is that those programs don't implement an algorithm, but a process :-)
2018-03-25T10:53:49Z pjb: Algorithms must finish.
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2018-03-25T11:42:53Z pierpa_: beach: the Zmacs manual does not mention anywhere read-tables, and ignores completely the topic of editing non-standard syntaxes.  In this respect it appears to offer about the same functionality as emacs.
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2018-03-25T11:44:23Z beach: Thanks.  I am not that surprised actually.  Good to know though.
2018-03-25T11:45:03Z pierpa_: (Genera 7.0, July 1986)
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2018-03-25T12:26:11Z didi: I just noticed that /topic claims SBCL is on 1.4.0, but the latest version is 1.4.5.
2018-03-25T12:27:52Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2018-03-25T12:28:01Z jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5
2018-03-25T12:28:07Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jack_rabbit
2018-03-25T12:28:10Z didi: Thanks.
2018-03-25T12:28:10Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2018-03-25T12:28:56Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-03-25T12:29:31Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2018-03-25T12:29:45Z jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
2018-03-25T12:29:55Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
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2018-03-25T12:33:52Z phoe: (incf jackdaniel)
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2018-03-25T12:37:52Z jackdaniel: Error: jackdaniel is not a place.
2018-03-25T12:39:03Z TCZ: its a state of mind
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2018-03-25T13:00:22Z Xach: Shinmera: I can't check out https://github.com/Shirakumo/oxenfurt - i get 404
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2018-03-25T13:01:38Z phoe: Xach: https://github.com/Shinmera/oxenfurt
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2018-03-25T13:02:19Z Xach: that is not the url given in the request
2018-03-25T13:02:57Z phoe: yep, I see it now
2018-03-25T13:03:28Z phoe: though https://shinmera.github.io/oxenfurt/ also is a proper website where https://shirakumo.github.io/oxenfurt/ is a 404
2018-03-25T13:03:53Z Xach: It seems likely that the url in the request is wrong, but maybe there's some other way forward
2018-03-25T13:04:27Z phoe: it seems Shinmera did not move the project over to the Shirakumo github organization
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2018-03-25T13:07:11Z Xach will wait and see
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2018-03-25T13:22:32Z jeosol: Got this error with SBCL: " run-program error processing :output argument: couldn't duplicate file descriptor: Too  many open files". Any one has idea of what the maximum number of open file ?
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2018-03-25T13:23:11Z jackdaniel: jeosol: this is per-process limitation
2018-03-25T13:23:14Z jackdaniel: you may set it with ulimit
2018-03-25T13:23:18Z jackdaniel: (nothing sbcl-specific)
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2018-03-25T13:26:10Z jeosol: Thanks jackdaniel. I get that error when running parallel code with each thread opening files, etc. With serial, no problems.
2018-03-25T13:26:44Z jeosol: how to set it with ulimit? is there somewhere I can more info about this?
2018-03-25T13:26:49Z jackdaniel: there is a limit of how many descriptors process may have opened
2018-03-25T13:27:10Z jackdaniel: I bet typing ulimit file descriptor limit in your favourite search engine will yield something
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2018-03-25T13:32:05Z jeosol: Merci @jackdaniel
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2018-03-25T13:34:55Z jackdaniel: proszę @jeosol ,-)
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2018-03-25T13:39:57Z jeosol: You guys are the man. I get stuff resolved quickly here. I tried comp.lang.lisp but some folks seem to be posting troll/crap messages there lately
2018-03-25T13:41:00Z phoe: jeosol: for some broad definition of "lately"
2018-03-25T13:41:21Z pierpa_: cll stopped being useful many years ago
2018-03-25T13:42:20Z jeosol: It's been a while I have been there. I set google alert to daily just to see what's up. Early on in my project, I have gotten many problems resolved there, and I am grateful for those inputs
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2018-03-25T13:43:44Z jeosol: I see some things about politics, drug adverts, some posts in arabic, etc
2018-03-25T13:44:23Z phoe: and gavino shitposts
2018-03-25T13:44:33Z jeosol: yeah, who is that dude by the way
2018-03-25T13:44:48Z jeosol: posts about oracle cancer, lisp startups, etc
2018-03-25T13:44:54Z jeosol: I don't get it
2018-03-25T13:45:30Z jeosol: I guess I am not in the loop regarding some things.
2018-03-25T13:45:55Z pierpa_: self-regulation has not worked out for usenet
2018-03-25T13:46:02Z jeosol: @jackdaniel, found in my system, some file stream not getting closed.
2018-03-25T13:47:25Z scymtym: how is the case of exponent markers determined when printing floats? i cannot find anything conclusive in the spec
2018-03-25T13:47:30Z jackdaniel: usually it is best to have file operations wrapped in with-open-file (instead of calling open/close manually)
2018-03-25T13:48:43Z jeosol: That is true @jackdaniel, I use that mostly. There is functionality I added, where I have to pass a stream somewhere, forgot to clean up the code properly
2018-03-25T13:49:11Z jackdaniel: scymtym: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#exponent_marker (notice, that there is "or", for instance "E or e")
2018-03-25T13:49:21Z Shinmera: Xach: Oh, whoops, sorry, I copy pasted badly. Fixed.
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2018-03-25T13:50:31Z jackdaniel: so I'd assume that it is not specified and you may use conformingly any case you want)
2018-03-25T13:50:37Z jackdaniel: s/)//
2018-03-25T13:52:25Z scymtym: jackdaniel: the glossary entry seems to suggest that, but http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm says to use the exponent marker E
2018-03-25T13:53:34Z scymtym: i also wonder whether *PRINT-CASE* plays a role in this
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2018-03-25T13:56:28Z jackdaniel: I think it is just used to indicate the letter, not its case. Similar (but reverse) to how symbol names are printed in the spec (i.e lowercase while in fact they are upcase)
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2018-03-25T13:58:35Z jackdaniel: n the spec (i.e lowercase while in fact they are upcase)
2018-03-25T13:58:49Z jackdaniel: sorry, touchpad glitch
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2018-03-25T13:59:58Z scymtym: could be. i guess portable code be prepared to handle both cases, thanks
2018-03-25T14:00:09Z scymtym: sadly, this makes the printer less useful for interfacing with other software when it comes to floats
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2018-03-25T14:03:19Z pierpa_: are there softwares which require a particular case for floats?
2018-03-25T14:03:27Z scymtym: i guess one could use e.g. (format nil "~(~E~)" FLOAT) for that
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2018-03-25T14:05:14Z scymtym: pierpa_: i think i had this problem once, but i can't remember now
2018-03-25T14:06:23Z makomo: pjb: i dug up this old thread https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iLo1ti6rQIw where you conclude that DEFVAR doesn't really define anything because the definition of "to define" according to CLHS is to "create a binding in a namespace"
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2018-03-25T14:08:22Z phoe: pjb: DEFVAR without a second argument just proclaims a symbol as special
2018-03-25T14:08:28Z makomo: right, i was just about to add that
2018-03-25T14:08:35Z makomo: it is important that there is no second argument
2018-03-25T14:08:55Z Bike: so, what is the operational effect of this distinction
2018-03-25T14:09:22Z makomo: however, if you evaluate (describe 'defvar) in SBCL for example it says "Define a special variable at top level."
2018-03-25T14:09:28Z makomo: that's the first sentence at least
2018-03-25T14:09:39Z makomo: but this isn't always true, right?
2018-03-25T14:10:00Z makomo: if you ommit the initial value, DEFVAR doesn't define anything (using "define" according to CLHS), it only makes the symbol special
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2018-03-25T14:10:08Z makomo: omit*
2018-03-25T14:10:11Z jackdaniel: Bike: amusement leading to astonishment - as we all know this is critical to stay focused on not doing useful things ;-)
2018-03-25T14:10:21Z Bike nods sagely
2018-03-25T14:10:25Z makomo: :-)
2018-03-25T14:11:31Z pjb: makomo: trying to define the formal semantics of CL…
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2018-03-25T14:12:54Z pjb: notice that even with a second argument, if the variable is already bound, it create a binding either.
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2018-03-25T14:14:03Z makomo: is there a "doesn't" missing?
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2018-03-25T14:14:32Z makomo: if the variable is already bound, then by definition a binding already exists
2018-03-25T14:14:45Z makomo: DEFVAR wouldn't create a binding in that case because it already exists
2018-03-25T14:15:53Z pjb: makomo: indeed, +doesn't
2018-03-25T14:16:20Z makomo: good, i think it's clear to me now :-)
2018-03-25T14:16:25Z pjb: makomo: indeed, contrarily to eg. LET: (let (x) (let (x) #| this creates a new binding! |#))
2018-03-25T14:16:49Z makomo: right, and in both cases it binds it to NIL
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2018-03-25T14:18:10Z makomo: so lisp's usage of "variable" steers away from the "conventional" meaning of "a memory location you can put stuff into"
2018-03-25T14:18:41Z Shinmera: I don't think that's conventional. That's C.
2018-03-25T14:18:58Z makomo: well yeah, put that's something i would call conventional
2018-03-25T14:19:05Z makomo: although i don't really know why, so i put it in quotes lol
2018-03-25T14:19:10Z Bike: and it's still not true of C because C has register variables wheeeee
2018-03-25T14:19:28Z makomo: hah yeah, true, let's call it "simplified C" then :^)
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2018-03-25T14:19:57Z makomo: lisp's usage of "variable" refers to the "binding" or just an entry in the lexical/dynamic environment
2018-03-25T14:20:26Z Bike: if anything i'd say it's tricky because lexical and dynamic variables are very different things that happen to have similar syntax.
2018-03-25T14:20:45Z makomo: so the analogue to lisp's "unbound" state in something like C would be almost like "the memory location doesn't exist"
2018-03-25T14:20:58Z makomo: yeah, it is :^(
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2018-03-25T14:21:56Z jackdaniel: eulisp had specified different syntax for dynamic variables
2018-03-25T14:22:00Z Bike: i've seen other languages with dynamic variables but that use functions
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2018-03-25T14:22:15Z makomo: welp i better write all of this down before it escapes my mind
2018-03-25T14:22:56Z jackdaniel: [ftr: http://henry.github.io/EuLisp/Doc/EuLisp-0.991/eulisp.pdf , page 101]
2018-03-25T14:24:05Z Bike: isn't that the index
2018-03-25T14:24:23Z Bike: oh hey, it has generic lambdas
2018-03-25T14:24:44Z Bike: as a special operator for some reason
2018-03-25T14:25:20Z pierpa_: Any lisp designed after CL has a different syntax for special variables
2018-03-25T14:25:23Z Shinmera: Bike: Curiously enough, JS has dynamic variables. Well, it has exactly one, called `this`, and it leads to lots and lots of confusion.
2018-03-25T14:25:35Z Bike: this? like in methods?
2018-03-25T14:25:44Z Bike: why is it dynamic?
2018-03-25T14:25:49Z Shinmera: Because JS
2018-03-25T14:25:58Z phoe: this.foo() and such things
2018-03-25T14:25:58Z Bike: time for more sage nodding
2018-03-25T14:26:40Z makomo: Shinmera: hmm true, good point
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2018-03-25T15:24:52Z amerlyq: hi, what is correct idiom for resource deallocation in CL ? Something akin Python "with", C++ "shared_ptr" ?
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2018-03-25T15:26:59Z amerlyq: Currently I approximate it with Haskell's "DO monad" i.e. (defun resource (unwind-protect (funcall ctor) (funcall dtor)), which is used as (resource (lambda (...) @ctor) (lambda (...) @dtor)), but it's too cumbersome
2018-03-25T15:27:20Z makomo: oh wow, andy wingo, ludovic courtes and sacha chua are going to be at els, interesting!
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2018-03-25T15:28:52Z pjb:  amerlyq: use or write a with- macro.
2018-03-25T15:29:06Z pjb: amerlyq: if you write one, use unwind-protect in its expansion.
2018-03-25T15:30:21Z pjb: Something like: (defmacro with-resource ((var resource-init) &body body) `(let (var) (unwind-protect (progn (setf ,var ,resource-init) (let ((,var ,var)) ,@body)) (when ,var (free-resource ,var)))))
2018-03-25T15:31:42Z Bike: yeah, when i've translated python 'with' it was like that.
2018-03-25T15:31:42Z amerlyq: pjb: is it your own suggestion or recommended practice? I suppose lisp uses its own wordset for this technique and I couldn't find anything useful in google
2018-03-25T15:32:04Z Bike: unwind protect is to ensure that the resource is deallocated even if the body is exited abnormally. it's important.
2018-03-25T15:32:22Z Bike: with- macros are also common, including in the standard library
2018-03-25T15:32:25Z Bike: clhs with-open-file
2018-03-25T15:32:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2018-03-25T15:32:25Z Bike: e.g.
2018-03-25T15:32:39Z phoe: WITH-FOO macros usually expand to unwind-protect, anyway.
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2018-03-25T15:35:01Z amerlyq: so, writing "with-" per each resource as macro is preffered way, alright
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2018-03-25T15:36:31Z Bike: you could make a general thing like python's "with" if you wanted, but it would expand similarly for any given resource
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2018-03-25T15:38:12Z amerlyq: I was looking for some standart "(make-with (type ,type) dtor)" which would produce such "with-*" allocators for me, as resource management is rather common task and I expected it to be in ANSI
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2018-03-25T15:39:15Z phoe: amerlyq: allocators? what do you mean?
2018-03-25T15:39:15Z Bike: well, unwind protect is basically specifying the destructor.
2018-03-25T15:39:22Z Bike: dunno what you have in mind as far as types go.
2018-03-25T15:39:57Z Bike: as far as i understand python's with, you define a class that has one method that's called on entry to the with, and one that's called on exit.
2018-03-25T15:40:16Z Bike: so it's pretty much the same deal as unwind protect, but with methods because that's how python rolls.
2018-03-25T15:40:31Z phoe: if you mean C++-style destructors, you don't have these automatically called when a locally defined variable falls out of scope.
2018-03-25T15:42:11Z amerlyq: Bike: About "types" I meant analogy to how "setf" works -- when through (defsetf smth set-smth) you can specify default setf action for "smth" field accessor. So I thought about similar thing for resource to declare ctor/dtor.
2018-03-25T15:42:27Z Bike: ah, i see.
2018-03-25T15:42:50Z Bike: well that basically amounts to instead of having (with-resource ...), you'd have (with resource ...)
2018-03-25T15:43:02Z Bike: which, like i said, is basically doable... but i don't know that anyone's set up a system like that
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2018-03-25T15:44:05Z phoe: hm
2018-03-25T15:44:08Z phoe: I see
2018-03-25T15:44:09Z amerlyq: You know, I come to CL with great deal of idioms from other languages, so my "wants" may be silly in long term, therefore question about "prefferable for CL way" -- before I started reimplementing other languages in CL
2018-03-25T15:44:20Z phoe: you want a generic WITH, or something like that
2018-03-25T15:44:26Z random-nick: you can always write a macro to write with macros
2018-03-25T15:44:26Z Bike: i'm not complaining or anything. it might be useful.
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2018-03-25T15:44:34Z Shinmera: (defmethod allocate (obj)) (defmethod deallocate (obj)) (defmacro with-* (obj &body body) (let ((o (gensym))) `(let ((,o ,obj)) (allocate ,o) (unwind-protect (progn ,@body) (deallocate ,o)))
2018-03-25T15:44:44Z Bike: i've never had enough with- macros to want it myself, though.
2018-03-25T15:45:16Z Shinmera: Same
2018-03-25T15:45:57Z Bike: i think people find python's with a bit arcane too.
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2018-03-25T15:47:05Z amerlyq: phoe: it's more like I want "root of resource mgmt" whatever it means :) Maybe there is no need to manage resource scope in CL so tightly at all -- simply in my practice "with" in Python allowed to reduce resource scope greatly, which enhanced code comprehension.
2018-03-25T15:47:35Z beach: amerlyq: It depends on the kind of resource you are thinking about.
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2018-03-25T15:47:54Z beach: amerlyq: Certainly, open files are such a resource, which is why Common Lisp has WITH-OPEN-FILE.
2018-03-25T15:47:58Z phoe: if it's database connections, you'll want to have one that's pretty persistent between operations - in that case, store it as a dynamic variable
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2018-03-25T15:48:20Z phoe: if it's "local" resources like open files and such, the canonical way is to use WITH-FOO macros
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2018-03-25T15:49:01Z beach: amerlyq: What kind of resource do you have in mind?
2018-03-25T15:50:04Z amerlyq: beach: different treatment of resources "per resource name" increases complexity, but different treatment "per lifespan" reduces it. E.g. files, sockets, dbconnections, xlib resources -- they may be short term and long term in different contexts.
2018-03-25T15:51:07Z amerlyq: phoe: about global vars -- is it the only way for semi-persistent objects? Is there common pattern for "dependency injection" idiom?
2018-03-25T15:51:51Z phoe: amerlyq: dynamic doesn't essentially mean global, as dynamic vars can be rebound.
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2018-03-25T15:52:27Z Bike: last time i tried to figure out what dependency injection was it seemed to be, like, passing functions as arguments
2018-03-25T15:52:49Z Shinmera: isn't dependency injection just a really fucking stupid name for passing an object/closure to another object/closure.
2018-03-25T15:53:07Z phoe: amerlyq: what do you mean by "dependency injection"
2018-03-25T15:53:08Z jmercouris: why might someone do (defun |someFunction () ...)?
2018-03-25T15:53:09Z Shinmera: eg in java you pass an object into a constructor, "injecting" the dependency.
2018-03-25T15:53:10Z beach: Who the hell invented that term?
2018-03-25T15:53:25Z jmercouris: s/|someFunction ()/|someFunction| ()
2018-03-25T15:53:34Z Bike: jmercouris: they like lowercase?
2018-03-25T15:53:49Z phoe: java junkies who were dependent on some tough stuff that they injected into themselves - hence dependency injection /s
2018-03-25T15:53:54Z beach: jmercouris: I would guess because they use some FFI that requires the right case.
2018-03-25T15:54:03Z jmercouris: Shinmera: No, dependency injection has other connotations as well
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2018-03-25T15:54:26Z phoe: but basically you can do it with CLOS/MOP
2018-03-25T15:54:49Z jmercouris: beach: Bike: Ok, that makes a lot of sense now, I was wondering about that. The case is important because these are "method" names for xml-rpc which uses camel case
2018-03-25T15:55:07Z beach: *sigh*
2018-03-25T15:55:40Z jmercouris: beach: why so?
2018-03-25T15:55:42Z phoe: for a simple java @Inject, if you want to look for all concrete subclasses of X that is an "interface" class of yours, you can get that from the Lisp system, and once you have that, you can instantiate one of these subclasses
2018-03-25T15:56:04Z beach: jmercouris: More non-Common-Lisp stuff.
2018-03-25T15:56:06Z phoe: which isn't really the best way to do it, but eh, it would work
2018-03-25T15:56:15Z phoe: for everything else, just use dynavars
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2018-03-25T15:56:24Z phoe: also of interest: https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library
2018-03-25T15:56:43Z Bike: jmercouris: just to be clear, || is escape syntax. it means among other things that the characters within won't be automatically upcased like usually happens.
2018-03-25T15:57:18Z jmercouris: Bike: I see, thank you, I seem to remember that now
2018-03-25T15:57:28Z jmercouris: beach: ah, always a good time :)
2018-03-25T15:57:44Z Shinmera: Could also write \s\o\m\ef\u\n\c\t\i\o\n :^)
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2018-03-25T15:58:34Z jmercouris: I'll stick with pipes :D
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2018-03-25T16:01:44Z amerlyq: phoe: what I generally meant by "Dependency Injection" for C++/Python/Java is to 1) get rid of global singletons 2) deterministic order of init/deinit (impossible for singletons) 3) allow multiple independent global dependencies (too hard with singleton -> multiton)
2018-03-25T16:02:27Z amerlyq: So, using dynvars is akin to using singletons in my opinion here
2018-03-25T16:02:40Z phoe: amerlyq: 1) is done in Lisp via dynamic vars, 2) is doable because you have explicit control over when you bind dynavars to what, 3) is done with dynavars
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2018-03-25T16:02:50Z Shinmera: Except it isn't because you can bind them, well, as their name says, dynamically.
2018-03-25T16:03:00Z phoe: yep, exactly this
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2018-03-25T16:03:25Z Shinmera: Also singletons are juuuust fine because you can inspect your system wholly at any time.
2018-03-25T16:03:55Z phoe: (let ((*foo* (make-a-different-foo))) (function-which-uses-*foo*))
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2018-03-25T16:04:38Z amerlyq: phoe: so re-binding dynvar in lexical scope will propagate it into all nested body calls, right?
2018-03-25T16:05:18Z Shinmera: There is no lexical with dynamic variables. the binding is dynamic, run-time!
2018-03-25T16:06:04Z beach: amerlyq: Well, technically it is not a lexical scope then.
2018-03-25T16:06:15Z amerlyq: Shinmera: alright, I see the point. Dynamic binding is really way to go here. I simply grumble about "hard to track consequences looking in code"
2018-03-25T16:06:53Z amerlyq: Deps-injection may be shitty
2018-03-25T16:06:56Z Shinmera: All those things like singletons aren't a big deal in Lisp because you can inspect your environment
2018-03-25T16:07:10Z Shinmera: You can change it and look at it while it runs.
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2018-03-25T16:07:48Z beach: amerlyq: I think that you will find that many design patters that are required, in other languages are solved differently in Common Lisp.  And CLOS with its generic functions often play an important role here.
2018-03-25T16:08:28Z beach: amerlyq: I had never heard the term "dependency injection" before, and I am guessing that it requires a name just because it is not trivial in most languages.
2018-03-25T16:08:38Z Shinmera: It is trivial
2018-03-25T16:08:43Z Shinmera: just a dumb name for a pattern.
2018-03-25T16:08:53Z phoe: amerlyq: (defun foo () (print *x*)) (defvar *x* 42) (defun bar () (let ((*x* 'forty-two)) (foo)))
2018-03-25T16:08:56Z beach: So the pattern is needed in (say) Java.
2018-03-25T16:09:11Z phoe: (bar) will print FORTY-TWO
2018-03-25T16:09:18Z Shinmera: It's needed if you have a particular idea on how to make your code more modular.
2018-03-25T16:09:30Z beach: I see.
2018-03-25T16:09:55Z phoe: The call to DEFVAR proclaimed the symbol *X* as globally special. in other words, all variables named *X* are now dynamic.
2018-03-25T16:10:20Z Shinmera: The idea is that something needs to do some stuff, but you'd like to decouple how that stuff is done, so you give it a parameter that is used to do that stuff with. Thus, "injecting" the "dependency"
2018-03-25T16:10:56Z Shinmera: So for instance you have a generic kind of object to parse things with, and you can pass it another object that knows how to read things.
2018-03-25T16:11:05Z amerlyq: Shinmera: I disentangled many shitty projects in C with global vars and C++ with singletons written in spur of customer bidding. And it's brain-boiling to make them nice when they break from breathing at neighbor's room. So I treat Deps-inject as "nice" -- because it reduces scope of deps and gathers them in single place, right on the spot.
2018-03-25T16:11:15Z Shinmera: It's incredibly basic and most of the time you don't even think about doing it
2018-03-25T16:11:25Z Shinmera: but for some reason it got a name that makes it sound like something huge
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2018-03-25T16:11:37Z beach: Shinmera: That is also the impression I got from the Wikipedia page.
2018-03-25T16:11:39Z beach: Oh well.
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2018-03-25T16:12:09Z Shinmera: amerlyq: That's nice and all, but this is neither C nor C++
2018-03-25T16:12:18Z beach: It sounds like something a good Common Lisp programmer would do "naturally".
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2018-03-25T16:12:26Z Shinmera: When you learn a language you should drop your preconceptions.
2018-03-25T16:13:24Z beach: amerlyq: Is it that you are trying to make a decision as to whether to learn and/or use Common Lisp?
2018-03-25T16:14:19Z amerlyq: I know, so are my questions here were born. Dropping preconceptions is impossible -- after all I think about "what I want to achieve" by combining already known blocks/idioms. I can't combine unknown ones from other languages -- only find analogy and then to drop that analogy in long term after finding new, that lang-specific idiom.
2018-03-25T16:14:39Z phoe: amerlyq: actually "what you want to achieve" is a good question, and you can answer that
2018-03-25T16:14:45Z phoe: what is that you want to code?
2018-03-25T16:15:22Z amerlyq: beach: nope, I simply never written in CL nothing big, forget picolisp scripts.
2018-03-25T16:15:31Z phoe: it'll be hard to learn Lisp without writing Lisp and having it reviewed, so for writing Lisp, you'll need a goal to try and achieve by writing Lisp
2018-03-25T16:15:58Z beach: amerlyq: Then I think the best way is to invest in learning it.  Then you will see how your problems can be solved with the features that Common Lisp provides.
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2018-03-25T16:19:21Z amerlyq: I started writing WM with external socket controls and resource management was first big problem I encountered when tried to refactor my messy attempts.
2018-03-25T16:19:48Z amerlyq: So, actually, I'm in the process
2018-03-25T16:22:09Z jmercouris: within the defpackage macro there is import-from, is there a way to do something like :export-to? I don't see it anywhere in CLHS on defpackage
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2018-03-25T16:22:45Z jmercouris: I am asking because I need to add some symbols to a package that I have not defined
2018-03-25T16:22:59Z jmercouris: if you look in the documentation for s-xml-rpc the following line appears "You can export additional functions from the server by importing symbols in the package contained in *xml-rpc-package* (by default, this is the package S-XML-RPC-EXPORTS). " (https://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml-rpc/)
2018-03-25T16:23:11Z phoe: jmercouris: wait
2018-03-25T16:23:13Z phoe: export *to*?
2018-03-25T16:23:19Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, to
2018-03-25T16:23:21Z phoe: you don't export anything *to* anything
2018-03-25T16:23:25Z phoe: you export symbols out of a package
2018-03-25T16:23:41Z phoe: and you import symbols from a package to another package
2018-03-25T16:23:47Z phoe: you don't export-to, you import-from.
2018-03-25T16:23:48Z jmercouris: how can I add symbols to a package without being *in* the package?
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2018-03-25T16:23:54Z Shinmera: intern?
2018-03-25T16:24:05Z beach: jmercouris: That is a very nasty thing to do.
2018-03-25T16:24:24Z jmercouris: ok, so it seems ill advised then
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2018-03-25T16:24:41Z jmercouris: if you look at the original authors, what they've done is this: https://gist.github.com/2756ffce44d0176ffe0fc52d23dd9c82
2018-03-25T16:25:03Z jmercouris: and since they've already defined s-xml-rpc-exports, I can't :import-from my own package
2018-03-25T16:25:03Z phoe: these seem like mostly normal defpackages
2018-03-25T16:25:07Z pierpa: jmercouris: what you want is called IMPORT
2018-03-25T16:25:30Z amerlyq: Thanks, phoe, Bike, Shinmera, beach. So, current way to go is to write my own "with-" macros to use inside function scope and dynvars to extend resource scope over multiple functions.
2018-03-25T16:25:32Z jmercouris: pierpa: I'd still have to (use-package :s-xml-rpc-exports) though, correct?
2018-03-25T16:25:46Z phoe: yep, more or less
2018-03-25T16:25:49Z phoe: jmercouris: no, why?
2018-03-25T16:25:56Z phoe: you can import only specific symbols
2018-03-25T16:26:08Z phoe: USEing a package imports everything, as opposed to IMPORTing only specific symbols
2018-03-25T16:26:23Z beach: amerlyq: I can't tell whether that is the way to go.  I think you need to learn more about Common Lisp, and then figure out how to use the full language to accomplish what you want.
2018-03-25T16:26:24Z jmercouris: phoe: I meant to say "in-package"
2018-03-25T16:26:37Z jmercouris: sorry about the confusion
2018-03-25T16:26:50Z jmercouris: so something like (in-package :s-xml-rpc-exports) (import ...)
2018-03-25T16:27:21Z beach: jmercouris: That is a very nasty thing to do.  You are messing with someone the interface created by someone else.
2018-03-25T16:27:39Z beach: s/someone//
2018-03-25T16:27:57Z jmercouris: beach: Unless I am misunderstanding, the author suggests that to add methods to the server, you have to export symbols to the package
2018-03-25T16:28:12Z jmercouris: "You can export additional functions from the server by importing symbols in the package contained in *xml-rpc-package* (by default, this is the package S-XML-RPC-EXPORTS). (use-package :common-lisp :s-xml-rpc-exports) makes all of Common Lisp available via xml-rpc."
2018-03-25T16:28:21Z pierpa: jmercouris: no. Give s read at the doc for IMPORT, please
2018-03-25T16:28:23Z jmercouris: maybe I am not understanding the meaning of this specific paragraph then
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2018-03-25T16:29:09Z beach: jmercouris: You can define methods on a generic function without writing your code in the package that contains the name of that function.
2018-03-25T16:29:45Z beach: jmercouris: (defmethod s-xml-rpc-exports:the-function-name (...) ...)
2018-03-25T16:30:20Z jmercouris: pierpa: aha, I see the optional package, nice
2018-03-25T16:30:34Z pierpa: !
2018-03-25T16:30:56Z jmercouris: beach: there are just some defuns in the package
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2018-03-25T16:31:24Z jmercouris: beach: out of curiosity, it is also possible to (defun s-xml-rpc-exports:some-function-name () ...)?
2018-03-25T16:32:26Z jmercouris: seems impossible according to the repl
2018-03-25T16:32:42Z phoe: why impossible?
2018-03-25T16:32:54Z pierpa: To use a:b the symbol must already exist and be ecported
2018-03-25T16:32:58Z jmercouris: complained that the symbol some-function-name was not found in that package
2018-03-25T16:32:59Z jackdaniel: (defun foo::some-funciton-name () ) ; but once again, you pollute someone else's package
2018-03-25T16:33:05Z phoe: yep, that's correct, you need to use ::
2018-03-25T16:33:13Z jmercouris: ah, because it is not exported
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2018-03-25T16:33:25Z phoe: but unless the author explicitly told you to do that, which is ugly, you should not mess with other people's packages.
2018-03-25T16:33:31Z jmercouris: Yes, the author says that
2018-03-25T16:33:39Z jmercouris: that is how one adds functions to the s-xml-rpc server
2018-03-25T16:33:51Z phoe: :shrug:
2018-03-25T16:33:53Z jmercouris: it is not my design, so please, no more pitchforks :D
2018-03-25T16:34:05Z phoe: oh well, if that is what was intended, then do it
2018-03-25T16:34:31Z jmercouris: I am sure the author thought about it, I probably would have had some sort of (register-end-point) function which accepts a url and a symbol
2018-03-25T16:35:03Z jmercouris: or maybe not a symbol, that is not so smart, but anyways
2018-03-25T16:35:53Z phoe: "go define a function in my package" is a very weird of exposing external interfaces
2018-03-25T16:36:11Z jmercouris: the author has two packages within their system
2018-03-25T16:36:13Z phoe: I'd rather go with "go define a function and push/set it to this dynamic variable whose symbol I export from my package"
2018-03-25T16:36:36Z jmercouris: and one of these packages is dedicated for that
2018-03-25T16:38:32Z jackdaniel: truth to be told imo Common Lisp package abstraction lacks in being intuitive, with supporting plugins, forward references and such
2018-03-25T16:38:42Z jackdaniel: what leads to many confused programmers coming here
2018-03-25T16:40:07Z jackdaniel: also refactoring systems split in many packages is a pain until you get used to it and stop noticing
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2018-03-25T17:00:30Z dim: is there anything at all in CL that would be intuitive?
2018-03-25T17:00:41Z dim: it's all hard learnt knowledge right?
2018-03-25T17:01:08Z Shinmera: intuition is relative to your expectations
2018-03-25T17:01:20Z Shinmera: so if you have the right expectations everything can be intuitive.
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2018-03-25T17:03:16Z jackdaniel: sophistry once more?
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2018-03-25T17:04:01Z Shinmera: I have never had the intention to deceive anyone in here
2018-03-25T17:04:09Z jackdaniel: dim: well, after wrapping my head around lisp I find many things intuitive, but packages are awkward even when I've gotten well familir with them
2018-03-25T17:04:10Z Shinmera: And frankly am offended by the implication.
2018-03-25T17:05:13Z jackdaniel: well, sorry for that, I'll keep shut next time you come up with "everything is relative" mantra in that case
2018-03-25T17:05:48Z Shinmera: I come up with it because the question is unanswerable without further context.
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2018-03-25T17:06:31Z dim: yeah well some things are quite intuitive in the sense that you can derive them from first principles, like everything is a expression, return values, bindings, then you can do many things
2018-03-25T17:06:47Z dim: but the flexibility of the whole language is still amazing to me
2018-03-25T17:06:56Z Shinmera: For instance, to me it is "intuitive" that numbers turn to bignums, but to someone expecting modular arithmetic it would not be.
2018-03-25T17:07:00Z dim: it's only been something like 6 years I'm using CL now, that said
2018-03-25T17:08:01Z dim: anyway, I should stop picking on those loose topics ;-)
2018-03-25T17:08:35Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: it is a bit confusing yes, I still have trouble because mentally I keep trying to map things to information I have from other languages
2018-03-25T17:09:09Z jmercouris: using prior knowledge is a great way to accelerate learning, normally, but sometimes it can result in "false friends"
2018-03-25T17:09:41Z jmercouris: I can't speak of the rationality of cl packages, because I don't really understand them in a deep sense, but just my 2c
2018-03-25T17:10:20Z Shinmera: CL packages are definitely surprising to a lot of people in that they deal with names rather than bindings.
2018-03-25T17:10:38Z Shinmera: At least we observe such surprise a lot in this channel.
2018-03-25T17:11:43Z jmercouris: I don't want to suggest "dumbing down our conversations", but I think if we all spoke more casually, it might lighten the atmosphere
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2018-03-25T17:12:33Z dim: I think the goal of this channel isn't friendly chat so much as helping each other get things done with Common Lisp
2018-03-25T17:12:59Z dim: tho we're mainly friendly people of course, I guess
2018-03-25T17:13:00Z jmercouris: dim: before we stray off topic, one can be friendly and helpful, or unfriendly and helpful
2018-03-25T17:13:14Z random-nick: dim: there's always #lispcafe for chatting
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2018-03-25T17:26:37Z pierpa_: Packages are neither difficult not nonintuitive. The problem is that to most this is a *boring* part of CL, they skip learning how packages work and prefer play by ear
2018-03-25T17:27:36Z Xach: There is a package guide that purports to enlighten but reinforces a "these are dumb and badly made but here's how to understand"
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2018-03-25T17:27:59Z Xach: Practical Common Lisp is pretty good on the topic though
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2018-03-25T17:30:40Z pierpa_: CL recipes is good too for this
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2018-03-25T17:35:12Z jackdaniel: just ftr: I don't think they are dumb or badly made
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2018-03-25T17:41:50Z pierpa_: Xach: if you mean the document by RG, then I agree. If it's not that one, then I don't want to know :)
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2018-03-25T17:53:22Z Xach: I think back to Peter Seibel's observation on a similar topic
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2018-03-25T17:54:18Z Xach: That from a "modern" perspective the assumption is that the designers of CL just didn't know any better when they did something that seems imperfect, but his review of contemporary discussions usually showed they knew the "good" options but had to make compromises or other hard decisions. Rarely was something done out of ignorance or lack of discussion.
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2018-03-25T17:58:35Z beach: That has always been quite evident to me.
2018-03-25T17:59:46Z beach: I can tell, because the pushed the envelope of what the language can do as much as they possibly could while being certain that it could be implemented in an efficient way (as far as it was known at the time).
2018-03-25T17:59:54Z Xach: It helps me understand why some old timers are still mad about when the hard decisions go against their preferences.
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2018-03-25T18:00:04Z beach: Heh.
2018-03-25T18:00:16Z Xach: "uppercase is bad, let's have modern lisp instead"
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2018-03-25T18:37:33Z aeth: uppercase is bad, let's (setf *print-case* :downcase) and pretend CL is case-insensitive so that works all of the time.
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2018-03-25T19:05:58Z phoe: ThErE iS oNlY oNe VaLiD cAsE
2018-03-25T19:05:59Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/string-pokemonize
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2018-03-25T19:34:00Z TMA: phoe: without a working (SeTf *PrInT-cAsE* :pOkEmOnIzE) it feels incomplete
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2018-03-25T19:43:11Z loginoob: From the book CL:gentle introduction i'll learn CL, but what to do if i want to improve my programming logic?
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2018-03-25T19:52:24Z stacksmith: From an old Davey and Goliath episode... Davey: Can you heal my leg, doctor?  Doctor: No, Davey, I can set the bone, but only God can heal you.
2018-03-25T19:53:26Z phoe: loginoob: programming logic? what do you mean?
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2018-03-25T19:54:50Z stacksmith: I think loginoob is trying to ask how to play chess after you learn how pieces move...
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2018-03-25T20:01:07Z jackdaniel: loginoob: you should read paradigms of artificial intelligence programming
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2018-03-25T20:01:46Z jackdaniel: check out: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2018-03-25T20:02:09Z jackdaniel: author goes through various applications how to write them step-by-step
2018-03-25T20:02:33Z jackdaniel: with incremental improvements so you can track the reasoning and learn from it
2018-03-25T20:02:38Z jackdaniel: is that what you meant?
2018-03-25T20:02:47Z loginoob: would i be able to understanf the book after completing cl:gentle introduction to symbolic computational
2018-03-25T20:02:55Z phoe: loginoob: I think so
2018-03-25T20:03:00Z phoe: gentle is a good introductory book
2018-03-25T20:03:01Z loginoob: jackdaniel: yes i meant that
2018-03-25T20:03:23Z loginoob: phoe: ok ty :)
2018-03-25T20:03:33Z jackdaniel: loginoob: if you know other language then PAIP also teaches common lisp. sure, after gentle you should have solid background
2018-03-25T20:04:09Z loginoob: ok
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2018-03-25T20:05:56Z loginoob: by logic i didn't mean theorcatical logic like propositional logic
2018-03-25T20:06:18Z loginoob: i don;t know how to properly put it into words
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2018-03-25T20:07:11Z stacksmith: loginoob: I think you may be going offtopic here.
2018-03-25T20:07:24Z loginoob: ok
2018-03-25T20:07:28Z loginoob: sorry
2018-03-25T20:08:01Z jackdaniel: I think we already have a gist of it (wrt what logic is). PAIP should teach you how to put ideas as programs.
2018-03-25T20:08:18Z loginoob: great :)
2018-03-25T20:08:23Z jackdaniel: s/what logic is/what logic is in this context/
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2018-03-26T00:08:41Z drmeister: General question: Besides using SETF - the only ways to call SETF functions is: (funcall #'(setf foo) value obj) and (apply #'(setf foo) value obj nil)  - correct?
2018-03-26T00:09:36Z drmeister: ((setf foo) value obj) is not valid.
2018-03-26T00:09:42Z pfdietz: That is right.
2018-03-26T00:09:53Z drmeister: Ok - thanks.
2018-03-26T00:10:45Z pfdietz: They're callable from other SETF-like things, of course.
2018-03-26T00:10:46Z drmeister: I'm implementing def_readwrite(name,pointer) in clbind and I'm setting it up so (setf (name obj) value) will work.
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2018-03-26T00:11:59Z drmeister: Why are the arguments for SETF functions (defun (setf foo) (value object) ...) and not (defun (setf foo) (object value) ...) ?
2018-03-26T00:12:11Z drmeister: Was it an arbitrary choice?
2018-03-26T00:13:25Z Bike: you can have setf functions that can take an arbitrary number of arguments, like setf.
2018-03-26T00:13:28Z Bike: like aref.
2018-03-26T00:13:54Z drmeister: Ah
2018-03-26T00:14:05Z Bike: it's more natural to just get the first argument than to use butlast and stuff.
2018-03-26T00:14:24Z drmeister: Ok - that makes sense
2018-03-26T00:14:42Z drmeister: Well - I got def_readwrite to work.
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2018-03-26T00:15:28Z drmeister: Short of doing a lot of fancy template programming I added a runtime test for which argument is dispatched on.
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2018-03-26T01:07:46Z aeth: You can also have setf take multiple values, too
2018-03-26T01:08:30Z aeth: That requires defsetf, though, afaik.
2018-03-26T01:09:36Z Bike: you can't do it with setf functions, no
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2018-03-26T01:34:36Z thodg: why are there no automatic cast in CL ?
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2018-03-26T01:37:37Z Bike: what do you mean
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2018-03-26T01:48:29Z k-hos: type coercion I would imagine
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2018-03-26T02:40:03Z aeth: Automatic type coercion doesn't mix well with dynamic typing imo.
2018-03-26T02:40:53Z aeth: In fact, I think the combination is half of the reason why dynamic typing gets hate
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2018-03-26T02:46:35Z k-hos: js didn't help peoples opinion of it
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2018-03-26T02:49:39Z aeth: JS and similar languages have an issue: they overload + to mean two very different things and then try to guess what you mean when you use mixed types of the overloaded +
2018-03-26T02:49:54Z aeth: THe combination of the two is evil
2018-03-26T02:51:12Z Zhivago: Hmm, it's pretty straight-forward logic, determined by the first operand, iirc.
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2018-03-26T02:51:24Z Zhivago: Not that I'm advocating conflating operator semantics.
2018-03-26T02:51:40Z Zhivago: But you'll see similar conflation with / in C, C++, Java, etc.
2018-03-26T02:51:42Z aeth: If CL had (+ x y) also mean (concatenate 'string x y) when x and y are both strings, the only issue would be a potential additional performance decrease when the types of x and y are unknown at compile time.
2018-03-26T02:51:56Z didi: (+ 4 2.0) => 6.0
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2018-03-26T02:52:28Z aeth: Yes, + already has performance issues at runtime when the types are unknown at compile time
2018-03-26T02:52:43Z aeth: The two main places ime where type declarations actually make a difference are sequences and numbers.
2018-03-26T02:52:48Z Zhivago: I think that dynamic typing generally gets criticized from two directions -- one of performance, and one of reliability.
2018-03-26T02:52:49Z aeth: And that's because of the generics like + and map
2018-03-26T02:53:04Z stacksmith: Wouldn't you call the promotion lisp does with upgrading and numeric type change to bignum form of coercion?
2018-03-26T02:53:33Z Zhivago: Those are legitimate criticisms, and the arguments for dynamic typing based on development speed are progressively weakening as compilers get faster.
2018-03-26T02:53:38Z aeth: stacksmith: Well, + is generic for all number types
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2018-03-26T02:54:52Z aeth: Zhivago: I think semi-dynamic typing beats dynamic or static typing. Languages are moving there from both directions, with static languages adding things like "var" or "auto" and dynamic languages adding things like type annotations (of course, CL has always had type declarations, although most implementations still to this day ignore them)
2018-03-26T02:55:21Z aeth: Eventually someone is going to make a language that's truly a mix of both
2018-03-26T02:56:34Z didi drags his dynamic typing away from aeth
2018-03-26T02:57:04Z aeth: A lot of the type static typing gets in the way and a lot of the type static typing is vital, and both circumstances happen within one program.
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2018-03-26T03:32:40Z jeosol: Hi guys, anyone know of a lisp library to split a regular polygon into N-sides?
2018-03-26T03:33:21Z jeosol: I meant N polygons of approximately same area
2018-03-26T03:33:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-26T03:35:06Z jeosol: morning beach. Still night for me though
2018-03-26T03:35:33Z jeosol: Funny, the first two words sounded like an insult
2018-03-26T03:35:43Z beach: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2018-03-26T03:36:50Z jeosol: Merci beach, I stand corrected. Pardon
2018-03-26T03:36:58Z beach: Don't worry about it.
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2018-03-26T03:45:28Z stacksmith: Good morning beach.
2018-03-26T03:45:47Z pfdietz: My biggest gripe with dynamic typing is understandability.   A function expects a FOO in this argument, but you may not be able to figure that out easily.  Even statically typed languages with type inference can have this problem.
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2018-03-26T03:50:00Z didi: pfdietz: You mean, you don't know if FOO has to be a list or a number?
2018-03-26T03:50:23Z Zhivago: I think that comes back to functions with broken semantics.
2018-03-26T03:50:44Z Zhivago: (And that dynamic typing facilitates functions with broken semantics)
2018-03-26T03:50:59Z pillton: didi: You have to look at the body of the operator to see what it requires.
2018-03-26T03:52:25Z beach: Once I finish WSCL, we can use declarations for that purpose.
2018-03-26T03:52:42Z beach: Right now, you would have to use CHECK-TYPE.
2018-03-26T03:53:16Z pillton: You could define a defun/t macro so you could do (defun/t name ((x integer) ..) ..).
2018-03-26T03:55:39Z didi: pillton: Can't the docstring tell you? And in many cases, the concrete type is fluid. I mean, you implement FOO as a list now, but maybe as a vector later.
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2018-03-26T03:57:27Z beach: didi: That type is called SEQUENCE.
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2018-03-26T03:58:13Z pfdietz: Oh sure, comments COULD tell you.  In a statically type language the declarations tell you, and they have to be there.
2018-03-26T03:58:51Z pillton: I might be wrong, but I think the term is explicitly typed language.
2018-03-26T03:59:09Z pfdietz: It could be useful to infer the types from dynamic execution.   This function is always called with a FOO in that argument.
2018-03-26T03:59:11Z beach: manifest
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2018-03-26T04:00:32Z beach: pillton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_typing
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2018-03-26T04:02:24Z pillton: beach: Thanks. I thought that explicit was the obvious antonym of the term implicit found in Pierce's Types and Programming Languages book.
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2018-03-26T04:03:04Z beach: pillton: Yes.  I didn't invent the term "manifest".  Just reporting it.
2018-03-26T04:03:31Z pillton: pfdietz: I think it would better to support recompiling an existing function with narrower types.
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2018-03-26T04:05:33Z beach: I often hear that languages with manifest typing require the programmer to be too precise early on in the development of some code, and that the types may change later on, which requires more maintenance.  But I am guessing that this problem exists, because most such languages need the representation of the instances in order to compile.
2018-03-26T04:06:21Z beach: Common Lisp would not have that problem, given that its type system is not based on representation.
2018-03-26T04:06:37Z khrb_t: jackdaniel: update channel topic from CMUCL 21b -> 21c ?
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2018-03-26T04:07:09Z pillton: beach: I wonder if this problem is due to the coupling of state and operators?
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2018-03-26T04:07:50Z beach: pillton: Too early in the morning for me to understand what you mean.  Can you give an example?
2018-03-26T04:08:40Z jeosol: I was logged out, not sure if someone responded to my question early: any CL library for splitting a polygon into N smaller polygons of equal size
2018-03-26T04:09:06Z beach: jeosol: Not yet.
2018-03-26T04:09:20Z pillton: beach: The dot notation used in other languages requires operators to be associated with an object.
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2018-03-26T04:09:45Z beach: pillton: Ah, I see.
2018-03-26T04:09:57Z pfdietz: Not sure how recompiling is supposed to help me.  The issue was communicating information to a person reading the code, not communicating to the compiler what the types could be.
2018-03-26T04:10:02Z jeosol: ok, thanks beach. My machine crapped up.
2018-03-26T04:10:33Z beach: jeosol: Are you aware of such a library in any other language?  it seems like a hard problem.
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2018-03-26T04:12:09Z Bike: quick google says it might be exponential time, oh no
2018-03-26T04:12:18Z Bike: only on weird things like non convex polygons tho
2018-03-26T04:13:57Z jeosol: Some guy had a C++ code but for some reason, he used QT, I am still trying to compile it, having some issues but hacking it. This will be my fall back option. My program in CL needs to divide a polygon once.
2018-03-26T04:14:17Z pillton: Wouldn't N be a monotonically increasing function of asymmetry?
2018-03-26T04:14:22Z jeosol: http://www.khetarpal.org/polygon-splitting/
2018-03-26T04:14:47Z pillton: Oh equal size, not shape.
2018-03-26T04:15:04Z jeosol: sorry if I mentioned, shape, I meant area
2018-03-26T04:15:20Z pillton: You said size, but my mind thought shape.
2018-03-26T04:15:28Z beach: jeosol: If you have the algorithm, I suggest you create such a library in Common Lisp for everyone to use.
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2018-03-26T04:16:19Z jeosol: ok doki. I will try. This is something I will need down the line anyway.
2018-03-26T04:16:34Z jeosol: I was searching for a quick solution my challenge problem.
2018-03-26T04:17:27Z beach: What do you need it for, if I may ask?
2018-03-26T04:18:20Z jeosol: I need the partition algorithm for a specific problem. I will use an analogy to explain it better
2018-03-26T04:19:31Z jeosol: Say I have a large city area, e.g., LA, NY. I want to locate N fire stations (or telecommunications mast, or some resource). I want to partition the large city area (my initial polygon) into smaller areas (based on some criterion, in this case, population size)
2018-03-26T04:19:59Z beach: Interesting problem.
2018-03-26T04:20:02Z jeosol: Then I could do some parallel search within each smaller polygon  to find the best location for the said resource
2018-03-26T04:20:30Z jeosol: This was one of the reasons I asked for the parallel functionality a few days ago. I have that part working okay.
2018-03-26T04:21:26Z jeosol: thanks
2018-03-26T04:23:44Z beach: The polygon-area algorithm may not be applicable in this case though, because population density is typically not uniform across the area of a city.
2018-03-26T04:24:40Z jeosol: Yes you are absolutely right, what I explained is not my problem, I only used that analogy. That is what I use to quickly explain my problem to people
2018-03-26T04:24:53Z beach: OK.
2018-03-26T04:25:13Z jeosol: The actual problem is analogous, in the some resource in the earth, not being uniformly distributed
2018-03-26T04:25:25Z jeosol: *in that some ...
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2018-03-26T04:26:39Z beach will not ask jeosol if that resource is oil.
2018-03-26T04:26:51Z jeosol: hahahaha
2018-03-26T04:26:55Z jeosol: yes, you are right
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2018-03-26T04:30:05Z jeosol: that is the current application case, but I'm trying to make the code some what problem agnostic, as long we are allocating some scarce resource.
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2018-03-26T04:44:24Z beach: Sure.
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2018-03-26T06:11:11Z loginoob: Is common lisp used in industry?
2018-03-26T06:12:16Z didi: loginoob: Probably.
2018-03-26T06:12:22Z otwieracz: Funeral industry? :)
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2018-03-26T06:12:58Z loginoob: how tough is it for a newcomer to get a job in common lisp.
2018-03-26T06:13:13Z otwieracz: Difficult, IMO.
2018-03-26T06:15:49Z loginoob: I have never met a person who works with common lisp, in India.
2018-03-26T06:16:07Z loginoob: nor can i see job posting for it
2018-03-26T06:16:16Z loginoob: so i asked.
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2018-03-26T06:27:29Z loginoob: Is anyone from India here? Am i allowed to ask?
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2018-03-26T06:34:25Z loke: loginoob: You can ask, but I don't see why that information should be useful;?
2018-03-26T06:35:34Z pierpa: would be useful to him to connect with the Indian CL community, if it exist?
2018-03-26T06:36:10Z loke: Sure. I simply said _I_ don't see ho wit's userful.
2018-03-26T06:36:17Z loke: anyway, I believe the answer is yes.
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2018-03-26T06:41:11Z jackdaniel: loginoob: there are a few companies which use CL as their main programming language for products they sell. some of them: Raven Pack, Grammarly, Franz Inc
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2018-03-26T06:41:49Z jackdaniel: moreover there are more companies which use other lisp dialects (like clojure which seems to be more popular) and there are companies we don't know about (i.e they are not saying, what language do they use)
2018-03-26T06:42:09Z jackdaniel: and if you are a freelance developer it is often at your discretion what language you use
2018-03-26T06:42:49Z jackdaniel: I think iRobot uses some Lisp dialect for their products for internal software
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2018-03-26T06:43:37Z jackdaniel: here is a feed with lisp jobs offers: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/
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2018-03-26T06:54:24Z hajovonta: hello
2018-03-26T06:54:51Z otwieracz: Yup, iRobot uses CL.
2018-03-26T06:54:58Z otwieracz: D-Wave, also.
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2018-03-26T07:06:03Z loginoob: jackdaniel: Thank you very much for the detail info.
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2018-03-26T07:27:29Z hajovonta: is there an IRC client written in CL?
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2018-03-26T07:28:37Z Shinmera: if by client you mean library, then multiple.
2018-03-26T07:29:35Z Shinmera: if by client you mean an application like irssi, then I know only of one, which is very basic.
2018-03-26T07:30:08Z Shinmera: Writing an actually usable irc app is in my plans but I don't know when I'll get to it.
2018-03-26T07:31:03Z hajovonta: do you have plans for the frontend?
2018-03-26T07:31:07Z hajovonta: will it use the REPL?
2018-03-26T07:31:22Z Shinmera: The basic client I've talked about runs on the REPL
2018-03-26T07:31:40Z Shinmera: But the REPL is too limited an environment to be useful for IRC.
2018-03-26T07:32:00Z hajovonta: I agree
2018-03-26T07:32:11Z hajovonta: it would almost be like using telnet
2018-03-26T07:32:58Z Shinmera: Anyway, frontend will be Qt, just like all the other apps I've written.
2018-03-26T07:38:05Z beach: hajovonta: There beirc.
2018-03-26T07:38:47Z Shinmera: Oh, neat
2018-03-26T07:38:48Z hajovonta: when I had to make a frontend to an app, I used hunchentoot and made a dynamic page
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2018-03-26T07:40:25Z hajovonta: hm, beirc is in quicklisp
2018-03-26T07:45:22Z hajovonta: it starts, but can't connect :)
2018-03-26T07:45:28Z dim: Shinmera: is a Qt backend for McCLIM something that would make sense?
2018-03-26T07:45:58Z Shinmera: I don't know McCLIM enough to answer that question
2018-03-26T07:47:01Z dim: my understanding is that McCLIM draws everything itself, rather than using ready-made widgets, but I'm not sure about that :/
2018-03-26T07:47:20Z beach: dim: Probably not much.  CLIM was meant to be able to do that kind of stuff, i.e. using gadgets from existing toolkits, but we haven't worked much on making that possible.
2018-03-26T07:47:31Z Shinmera: Well, you can draw whatever you want into a Qt window too.
2018-03-26T07:47:36Z beach: dim: Yes, that's what we have been working on the most.
2018-03-26T07:47:50Z dim: so whatever the backend is, you get the clim look&feel
2018-03-26T07:47:58Z beach: dim: Such a backend would just use the most primitive features of Qt.
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2018-03-26T07:48:34Z beach: dim: There is no CLIM look and feel.  McCLIM has a default one that people think is ugly, but it can be modified.
2018-03-26T07:48:53Z dim: so many things to do, so little time
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2018-03-26T07:48:59Z Shinmera: Indeed
2018-03-26T07:49:13Z beach: dim: Though it is better than it used to be, and there is some work in progress to make it better.
2018-03-26T07:49:37Z dim: I keep thinking that CLIM with its graphical abilities could be a perfect playground for teaching programming, but I keep not having enough time to even have a look into that idea :/
2018-03-26T07:50:34Z jackdaniel: when I'm dealt with mirrors I have a tutorial on how to write McCLIM gadget in progress
2018-03-26T07:50:58Z jackdaniel: one of long term goals is to make default look of McCLIM follow material design guidelines
2018-03-26T07:52:11Z jackdaniel: regarding using widgets from other toolkits, I have not investigated this possibility so far, but one of mirror purpose is an adaptive toolkit (that is - borrowing widgets from the underlying software, like Qt if there will be Qt backend at some point of time)
2018-03-26T07:53:15Z jackdaniel: currently I'm working on mixing mirrored sheets and normal sheets freely in sheet hierarchy (right now we have two possibilities which work reasonably well: top-level-pane is mirrored or everything is mirrored)
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2018-03-26T07:54:21Z jackdaniel: interesting fact: fittestbits works on Mezzano backend and he is already capable of running clim-listener on that operating system :)
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2018-03-26T08:16:56Z beach: jackdaniel: That's great news.
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2018-03-26T08:24:06Z beach: OK, I think we finished taking referee reports into account for our ELS submissions.  A few passes to check for typos and grammar mistakes, and the final versions can be submitted.  If anyone wants a preview there are here: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining.pdf http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf and if anyone finds mistakes soon enough, we will obviously fix those mistakes.
2018-03-26T08:24:28Z beach: But I don't think we have the time for major modifications at this point.
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2018-03-26T08:28:32Z shka: good morining
2018-03-26T08:28:47Z beach: Hello shka.
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2018-03-26T10:59:19Z antoszka: khrb_t: hi, I tried to use your fork/fix of Linedit, it works OK, but seems that the :history and :killring keyword arguments to INSTALL-REPL are not supported anymore.
2018-03-26T10:59:35Z antoszka: khrb_t: are you planning to get that working, too?
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2018-03-26T11:08:35Z antoszka: khrb_t: though looking at the code how that'd gone missing ;)
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2018-03-26T11:39:32Z dim: any ABCL users around, to have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/772 ?
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2018-03-26T12:24:19Z alvarone: ciao
2018-03-26T12:24:36Z alvarone: !list
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2018-03-26T12:32:00Z loginoob: !list
2018-03-26T12:34:20Z jmercouris: !list
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2018-03-26T12:44:02Z dim: so, ELS, Marbella, spain... is there an hotel everyone is going, to make it easy to share a last drink at night at the bar?
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2018-03-26T12:47:11Z Xach: dim: I am staying at Hotel Fuerte Marbella. I did not find any other guidance or suggestions and it seemed relatively close and decent.
2018-03-26T12:47:56Z dim: thanks Xach, looking into that one then
2018-03-26T12:48:01Z antoszka: dim: I'm staying at Albergue Inturjoven Marbella, it's within walking distance of the venue and very cheap
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2018-03-26T12:53:04Z dim: booking done... I was fed up with traveling, somehow got excited again ;-)
2018-03-26T12:53:41Z Xach: Everything in europe is so close together it can hardly be called travelling! I am traveling many thousands of kilometres to join lisp friends!!
2018-03-26T12:54:53Z dim: hehe
2018-03-26T12:55:25Z dim: well well
2018-03-26T12:55:37Z ghard: Humm. Just realised while I was in the recording studio I missed the early reg deadline :(
2018-03-26T12:55:58Z dim: I won't list here my whereabouts, but it's been feeling as travelling for me, and it has included recent enough trips across the pond too
2018-03-26T12:56:16Z Xach: That was a very long recording session, the early reg deadline was open for quite some time
2018-03-26T12:56:49Z dim: Xach: also I'll be in Ottawa end of may, then from there to SF...
2018-03-26T12:57:30Z Xach: dim: you will be in SF in june? me too! (probably)
2018-03-26T12:57:53Z Xach: We can settle any unfinished ELS Lisp business then
2018-03-26T12:57:58Z dim: well I didn't book yet, either before of after Ottawa
2018-03-26T12:58:26Z Xach wonders if everyone could be persuaded to support package::(...) syntax
2018-03-26T12:58:29Z dim: Ottawa hosts http://pgcon.org
2018-03-26T12:58:47Z Xach: jackdaniel: does ECL support package::(...) syntax?
2018-03-26T12:58:58Z ghard: Indeed. I was holding out till last moment and then got distracted.
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2018-03-26T12:59:49Z ecraven: is there a short description of how SBCL tagged pointers work anywhere?
2018-03-26T13:01:42Z jackdaniel: Xach: no
2018-03-26T13:01:48Z ghard: Deciding whether to fly or ride > 2megameters there with a bike that's older than many of my coworkers.
2018-03-26T13:02:44Z Xach: jackdaniel: can you think of reasons why a change to do so might be rejected?
2018-03-26T13:03:59Z Xach: Or put the other way, would a patch for it be accepted?
2018-03-26T13:04:45Z jackdaniel is thinking (intensively)
2018-03-26T13:05:33Z jackdaniel: I don't like the idea of this syntax, but clean patch for it would be accepted
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2018-03-26T13:06:45Z Xach: I have found it to be very convenient repl shorthand. I don't think it is good to embed in source files (unless it becomes supported by all lisps)
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2018-03-26T13:06:52Z jackdaniel: nb: ECL's reader is written in C, so bending it for this requires C knowledge
2018-03-26T13:07:09Z Xach: Well, I know CL, so C must be like forgetting half of that, right?
2018-03-26T13:07:17Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2018-03-26T13:09:57Z dlowe: wouldn't (using-package <package> <implicit progn>) be just a little tidier?
2018-03-26T13:10:48Z Xach: I am more interested in repl brevity in this case
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2018-03-26T13:29:47Z dim: add an optional body to (in-package pkg &body)?
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2018-03-26T13:30:12Z dim: well, no, with-package reads better
2018-03-26T13:30:20Z dim: still not as short as Xach's proposal I guess
2018-03-26T13:31:47Z dlowe: I don't have any issues at the repl that would warrant such a proposal, but it doesn't ruin anything I guess.
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2018-03-26T13:32:11Z dlowe: not until I see it in code in the wild
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2018-03-26T13:34:05Z jackdaniel: that
2018-03-26T13:35:31Z Xach: allegroserve uses it in the wild, and i wish it didn't.
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2018-03-26T13:40:34Z Bike: wouldn't with-package actually be more difficult since it would be a weird macro semantic change and not just a reader change
2018-03-26T13:40:51Z Bike: but yeah, i've used it a few times in the repl too
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2018-03-26T13:42:52Z jcowan: local (lexical) syntax is something quite new and should really be thought through carefully
2018-03-26T13:43:54Z dlowe: Bike: (in-package ...) is also parsed by the reader
2018-03-26T13:44:05Z Bike: uh... yes.
2018-03-26T13:44:09Z Bike: so?
2018-03-26T13:44:35Z dlowe: so with-package would not be more difficult
2018-03-26T13:44:40Z Bike: yyyyes it would
2018-03-26T13:44:54Z Bike: (in-package foo) just macroexpands into (setf *package* foo), more or less
2018-03-26T13:44:59Z Bike: it doesn't actually affect the reader
2018-03-26T13:45:14Z Bike: with-package is not possible to write in standard CL and entails sort of delaying the reader
2018-03-26T13:45:37Z Bike: i mean, in-package doesn't affect the reader while the in-package form is being read
2018-03-26T13:45:40Z Shinmera: either that or some weird shit with rewriting expressions.
2018-03-26T13:46:14Z dlowe: (with-package foo ...) would macroexpand into (let ((*package* foo)) (recursive-reader))
2018-03-26T13:46:21Z Bike: what is recursive-reader
2018-03-26T13:46:37Z dlowe: I don't intend to live-code it right this instant
2018-03-26T13:46:48Z Bike: okay, but i have actually no idea what could possibly go there to make it work
2018-03-26T13:46:57Z Bike: by the time the macroexpansion happens, the body has already been read
2018-03-26T13:47:07Z Shinmera: macroexpansion can happen without the reader, even.
2018-03-26T13:47:42Z Shinmera: As in, an expression must not necessarily have been read in order to be compiled.
2018-03-26T13:48:08Z dlowe: the reader has re-entrant mechanisms to pluck things from the stream being read
2018-03-26T13:48:11Z onion: clhs with-package
2018-03-26T13:48:11Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for with-package.
2018-03-26T13:48:16Z Bike: okay, but the reader is already done at this point.
2018-03-26T13:49:01Z Bike: the evaluator is handed a cons with USING-PACKAGE in the car. what does it do.
2018-03-26T13:50:07Z jmercouris: anyone have any experience with s-xml-rpc?
2018-03-26T13:50:23Z jmercouris: I have a server, and it is returning a string like "T" or "NIL" instead of True or False in XML-RPC
2018-03-26T13:50:24Z dlowe: signal.  It's not a solvable problem with a cons
2018-03-26T13:50:59Z Bike: okay, so the evaluator can't do it
2018-03-26T13:51:13Z Bike: so you want the reader to recognize when it's read "(USING-PACKAGE", is that it?
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2018-03-26T13:54:33Z jackdaniel: #[using-package my-package …] -> (let ((*package* …)) (read…))
2018-03-26T13:54:46Z jackdaniel: more weird syntax for greater good
2018-03-26T13:55:13Z shka: oh god, please no
2018-03-26T13:55:39Z dlowe: that at least has the advantage of being available in a library
2018-03-26T13:55:52Z jackdaniel: or mandate implementations to allow steal macro character ( by the user, then we can implement whatever we want to without obfuscating the syntax
2018-03-26T13:55:52Z dlowe: using standard reader constructs
2018-03-26T13:55:57Z Shinmera: You can do it if you override the ( reader macro. Either way though it won't be a macro.
2018-03-26T13:57:29Z dlowe: jackdaniel: just drop the using-package for #[my-package ...]
2018-03-26T13:58:10Z jackdaniel: imo such #[…] syntax should be done in form of a library
2018-03-26T13:58:24Z jackdaniel: so anyone can extend it instead of fixing it to #[my-package ]
2018-03-26T13:58:24Z dlowe: sure, it's totally doable via standard extensions
2018-03-26T13:58:41Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-03-26T13:58:51Z dlowe: maybe a #{} library could just evaluate whatever function call by the reader
2018-03-26T13:58:54Z jackdaniel: I still wouldn't use it though
2018-03-26T13:59:15Z jackdaniel: I have [] as a poor-mans lisp-1 sexp
2018-03-26T13:59:21Z dlowe: #{using-package foo ...} would read the first symbol and call it with the stream
2018-03-26T13:59:23Z jackdaniel: in my daily hacks
2018-03-26T14:01:02Z onion: do you realise how much different "syntax" we use in english language every day? when we mad, talking to mom, talking to child, talking to boss, talking to buddies, when sleepy, when anxious and hurrying ...
2018-03-26T14:01:21Z Bike: it's all in chomsky's hit book, now in stores,
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2018-03-26T14:01:32Z onion: why '#' though ? its such a noisy character ;)
2018-03-26T14:02:12Z dlowe: # triggers reader macros
2018-03-26T14:02:30Z Bike: it's just the usual dispatch macro character. you could do $[ or something if you wanted to.
2018-03-26T14:02:33Z dlowe: it's supposed to stand out so a human can be alerted that something funny is going on
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2018-03-26T14:15:35Z onion: ahh i see =)
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2018-03-26T15:33:08Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I have the following simplified example: https://gist.github.com/f40f2436d424c6e54ec486276f17e0df
2018-03-26T15:33:19Z jmercouris: as you can see, based on the tests, a boolean is automatically encoded and decoded by the server
2018-03-26T15:33:50Z jmercouris: YET! When I add my own function, and it returns a boolean, it somehow converts it to a string for some reason
2018-03-26T15:33:54Z jmercouris: and my response looks like this: <methodResponse><params><param><value><array><data><value><string>T</string></value></data></array></value></param></params></methodResponse>
2018-03-26T15:34:10Z jmercouris: same goes for nil where it produces <string>NIL</string>
2018-03-26T15:34:17Z jmercouris: is there something that I am missing?
2018-03-26T15:36:21Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-03-26T15:37:03Z jmercouris: interesting, seems like in these tests it also produces a list like "T"
2018-03-26T15:37:14Z smokeink: just a thought: try to (break) inside the function where the problem is and debug it , step by step
2018-03-26T15:37:34Z jmercouris: you mean in the library code?
2018-03-26T15:37:48Z jmercouris: because my function is most definitely returning a bool as evidenced by the "T" or "NIL" string response
2018-03-26T15:37:53Z jmercouris: it's just not getting encoded properly
2018-03-26T15:37:54Z smokeink: anywhere
2018-03-26T15:37:58Z jmercouris: fair enough
2018-03-26T15:38:03Z jmercouris: time to look more into this codebase
2018-03-26T15:38:09Z jmercouris: maybe I'll end up forking it in the end...
2018-03-26T15:38:13Z smokeink: after (break) is reached , press 's' and it'll put you into stepping mode
2018-03-26T15:38:31Z jmercouris: ok
2018-03-26T15:38:33Z jmercouris: will do
2018-03-26T15:38:35Z jmercouris: ah shi
2018-03-26T15:38:46Z jmercouris: I'm not running in slime because the server interferes with slime
2018-03-26T15:38:49Z jmercouris: maybe I'll have to fix that first
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2018-03-26T15:40:37Z stacksmith: jmercouris: consider making the code more like Lisp.  Like instead of (if (zerop (random 2)) t nil)  you can just (zerop (random 2))
2018-03-26T15:41:08Z jmercouris: stacksmith: that's not my test suite
2018-03-26T15:41:18Z jmercouris: I'm just looking at it for understanding usage
2018-03-26T15:41:25Z jmercouris: it seems in general this package could use a lot of modernization
2018-03-26T15:41:34Z jmercouris: last update was in 2004
2018-03-26T15:42:18Z stacksmith: If the rest of it is written the same way, I wouldn't expect much.  CL has not changed since 2004, and judging by the snippet you provided whoever wrote it knows very little CL.
2018-03-26T15:44:07Z jmercouris: yeah that is a bit strange using an if when zerop already is a predicate function
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2018-03-26T15:45:43Z stacksmith: Everything about this code is strange.  To put it gently.
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2018-03-26T15:46:27Z sjl: So, this test is testing that booleans get booleans get encoded properly
2018-03-26T15:46:37Z jmercouris: sjl: right, exactly
2018-03-26T15:46:37Z sjl: zerop is not required to return a boolean by the standard
2018-03-26T15:46:43Z sjl: clhs zerop
2018-03-26T15:46:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm
2018-03-26T15:46:53Z sjl: > Returns true if number is zero
2018-03-26T15:46:59Z sjl: note how it says "true", not "t"
2018-03-26T15:47:21Z sjl: (zerop 0) can return anything that's not `nil` and still be compliant with the standard
2018-03-26T15:47:38Z jmercouris: ah, wow, good catch
2018-03-26T15:47:46Z jmercouris: now I feel like an idiot :D
2018-03-26T15:48:22Z sjl: I mean, in practice it probably usually returns t in most implementations
2018-03-26T15:48:36Z stacksmith: sjl: it also says "false" and not NIL.
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2018-03-26T15:48:52Z jackdaniel: check out "generalized boolean" entry in the spec glossary
2018-03-26T15:48:53Z sjl: stacksmith: yes, but if you click though to false it's defined to be "the symbol NIL"
2018-03-26T15:48:54Z jmercouris: the difference between "false" and not Nil? is there one?
2018-03-26T15:49:05Z sjl: > false n. the symbol nil, used to represent the failure of a predicate test.
2018-03-26T15:49:08Z jackdaniel: it basically means: NIL is false and everything else is true
2018-03-26T15:49:10Z jmercouris: I know there is most definitely a difference between truthy value and T
2018-03-26T15:49:30Z sjl: predicates often return t and nil, but they don't have to
2018-03-26T15:49:33Z sjl: e.g.
2018-03-26T15:49:37Z sjl: clhs digit-char-p
2018-03-26T15:49:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm
2018-03-26T15:49:43Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_g.htm#generalized_boolean
2018-03-26T15:49:45Z sjl: that one always bites me
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2018-03-26T15:50:29Z jmercouris: anyways, I still need to see how the XML is actually being encoded in those calls
2018-03-26T15:50:36Z jmercouris: maybe there is something strange on the Lisp side in the decoding
2018-03-26T15:50:39Z jmercouris: and the encoding is actually false
2018-03-26T15:50:43Z sjl: but yeah, if you want "a random object of type BOOLEAN" (if (zerop (random 2)) t nil) is a safe, reasonable way to get it
2018-03-26T15:51:44Z Xach: so many ways.
2018-03-26T15:54:27Z sjl: Would be interesting if there were a CL implementation that always did things the nonobvious way when the standard allows, just to run test suites under
2018-03-26T15:54:54Z jackdaniel: clisp is suprising in many places
2018-03-26T15:55:00Z jackdaniel: yet usually it *is* conforming
2018-03-26T15:55:02Z sjl: (list (= 1 1) (= 2 2)) ; => '(yep definitely)
2018-03-26T15:55:13Z Xach: There are a couple areas where that would be a big problem, but other areas where it would be cool
2018-03-26T15:55:13Z jmercouris: damn, so it seems that is in fact returning a string value
2018-03-26T15:55:16Z jmercouris: I turned on the debug flag...
2018-03-26T15:55:27Z jmercouris: well, I have confirmed the server is trying to return a string
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2018-03-26T15:55:40Z Xach: there is a widespread assumption that IO on (unsigned-byte 8) streams will do what you expect, for example.
2018-03-26T15:55:40Z jmercouris: maybe if I try returning an integer it'll actually return an int
2018-03-26T15:56:02Z Xach: Or that namestrings are mostly reasonable
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2018-03-26T15:58:51Z jmercouris: you know, this is really strange
2018-03-26T15:58:55Z jmercouris: it encodes an int properly
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2018-03-26T16:00:16Z jmercouris: but it encodes booleans as strings...
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2018-03-26T16:04:16Z jcowan: side question: do Unicode-enabled CLs typically implement digit-char-p to return truth on non-ASCII decimal digits (category Nd)?
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2018-03-26T16:05:27Z jmercouris: alright, I've found the important function
2018-03-26T16:05:30Z jmercouris: I'm just trying to understand it now
2018-03-26T16:06:02Z jmercouris: here is the function: https://gist.github.com/38e353766514be81a00c2dc1451f206a
2018-03-26T16:06:16Z phoe: clhs digit-char-p
2018-03-26T16:06:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm
2018-03-26T16:06:32Z phoe: jcowan: nope
2018-03-26T16:06:33Z jmercouris: for some reason, it will return a string first, and won't ever get to boolean
2018-03-26T16:06:43Z phoe: CL has 36 possible digits, 0..9A..Z
2018-03-26T16:07:48Z jmercouris: aha, here is the issue
2018-03-26T16:07:53Z jmercouris: (symbolp T) --> T
2018-03-26T16:07:57Z jmercouris: so it treats the boolean as an arg
2018-03-26T16:08:01Z jmercouris: I mean as a string
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2018-03-26T16:09:13Z jmercouris: can someone confirm that my logic is sound?
2018-03-26T16:09:42Z phoe: yes
2018-03-26T16:09:58Z jcowan: also (symbolp NIL) => t
2018-03-26T16:10:05Z phoe: you need to put the (OR (NULL ARG) (EQ ARG T)) clause above (OR (STRINGP ARG) (SYMBOLP ARG))
2018-03-26T16:10:24Z phoe: also in this context I'd switch (NULL ARG) with (EQ ARG NIL)
2018-03-26T16:10:34Z phoe: (r even the whole OR with (MEMBER ARG '(NIL T))
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2018-03-26T16:11:06Z phoe: but now remember that mapping symbols to strings might screw you up.
2018-03-26T16:11:06Z jmercouris: if I put that clause above the string though, then strings will be encoded as booleans
2018-03-26T16:11:07Z jmercouris: no?
2018-03-26T16:11:12Z phoe: no
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2018-03-26T16:11:15Z phoe: why?
2018-03-26T16:11:23Z phoe: no string matches (MEMBER ARG '(T NIL))
2018-03-26T16:11:29Z jmercouris: aah, you are using (eq)
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2018-03-26T16:11:31Z phoe: since only two symbols match that clause
2018-03-26T16:11:31Z jmercouris: sorry, yes
2018-03-26T16:11:50Z phoe: EQ, EQL, EQUAL, EQUALP
2018-03-26T16:11:58Z phoe: no string is equal to a symbol under these predicates
2018-03-26T16:12:02Z phoe: you'd need to use STRING=.
2018-03-26T16:12:10Z phoe: but now remember that mapping symbols to strings might screw you up.
2018-03-26T16:12:19Z jmercouris: what do you mean by that?
2018-03-26T16:12:26Z phoe: how are you going to encode '(a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z) ?
2018-03-26T16:12:56Z phoe: because it sounds like you'll get something like ... "Q" "R" "S" true "U" "V" "W" ...
2018-03-26T16:13:11Z jmercouris: instead of whatever values is set for those symbols
2018-03-26T16:13:33Z jmercouris: hmm that is a good question, let me think about it
2018-03-26T16:13:48Z phoe: you might prefer :true and :false that do not map easily to Lisp values but *are* unique.
2018-03-26T16:14:08Z phoe: which is how some JSON libraries work with it.
2018-03-26T16:14:43Z jmercouris: maybe, but then I would need an (if) everytime I want to return a bool
2018-03-26T16:14:51Z jmercouris: to return the correct keyword
2018-03-26T16:17:12Z phoe: jmercouris: if you want to return all symbols as strings, then it sounds like you need to do that to take the edge case of T/NIL into account.
2018-03-26T16:17:32Z phoe: also, in your system, package information of a symbol is lost, so FOO:QUUX and BAR:QUUX will map into one string.
2018-03-26T16:17:47Z phoe: That isn't necessarily a bad thing, and just a thing to consider.  if you want it that way.
2018-03-26T16:18:16Z jackdaniel: #t #f for greater good ;-)
2018-03-26T16:18:56Z phoe: welcome to Scheme
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2018-03-26T16:22:37Z Bike: hellooooo, style type question. i wrote some extensions in mop to do observers and other such hip things. however there's a bit of a problem. i, i figured naturally, implemented the things as :after methods and such on (setf slot-value-using-class), but these functions are also used during initialization, at which point observers etc should generally not be observing.
2018-03-26T16:23:34Z Bike: i could have an "initialized" flag but that's kind of eh. i could define things so that there's internal and external accessors and only the external do these things, but then it seems pointless to have s-v-u-c be generic
2018-03-26T16:23:53Z Bike: any suggestions for what sucks least
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2018-03-26T16:25:15Z phoe: Bike: are you using make-instance as your constructor?
2018-03-26T16:25:40Z Bike: yeah
2018-03-26T16:25:50Z Bike: i don't want to rewrite shared-initialize or anything
2018-03-26T16:26:07Z phoe: does your observer start observing immediately after it's created, or...?
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2018-03-26T16:26:26Z Bike: the observer is a method on (setf slot-value-using-class), which shared-initialize calls.
2018-03-26T16:27:56Z beach: Bike: I am questioning that.
2018-03-26T16:28:01Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks for the advice!
2018-03-26T16:28:29Z Bike: i don't know if it's defined to call it, but implementations seem to.
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2018-03-26T16:28:42Z Bike: and if it didn't it kind of makes it difficult to define your own slot allocations and such, i think.
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2018-03-26T16:30:10Z beach: Bike: I would have to give it more thought.
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2018-03-26T16:30:23Z beach: This is the end of a long day, and I am not thinking clearly.
2018-03-26T16:30:36Z Bike: suresure. not like i need an immediate answer or anything
2018-03-26T16:30:42Z Bike: for now the observer just does a bunch of boundp tests
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2018-03-26T16:32:45Z jmercouris: time to make a fork of s-xml-rpc with my changes...
2018-03-26T16:32:52Z Bike: ah, and of course when i say shared-initialize calls (setf slot-value-using-class), i mean in general. if the class is a standard class and yada yada it can probably use standard-instance-access fine
2018-03-26T16:35:10Z phoe: Bike: so basically, your observer is just active during initialization of the object?
2018-03-26T16:35:15Z phoe: since it's only called by shared-initialize?
2018-03-26T16:35:28Z Bike: no, it's active any time the slot is set.
2018-03-26T16:35:32Z Bike: which is during initialization and also later.
2018-03-26T16:35:42Z Bike: but i don't particularly need or want it to run during initialization.
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2018-03-26T16:37:45Z phoe: Hmm. I see.
2018-03-26T16:38:02Z phoe: You could do a more dirty trick, I think.
2018-03-26T16:39:12Z phoe: allocate-instance can return an instance of uninitialized-observer, shared-initialize can work on that one normally, and make-instance :after can change-class it into observer (an initialized one).
2018-03-26T16:40:06Z phoe: I think this would be a bit bending on the
2018-03-26T16:40:09Z phoe: clhs allocate-instance
2018-03-26T16:40:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alloca.htm
2018-03-26T16:40:20Z phoe: "The generic function allocate-instance creates and returns a new instance of the class, without initializing it."
2018-03-26T16:40:32Z phoe: So my advice would actually violate the standard. Welp.
2018-03-26T16:40:46Z Bike: i think you are misunderstanding something
2018-03-26T16:40:59Z Bike: the observer is just a function
2018-03-26T16:41:08Z phoe: Oh wait a second. Just a function.
2018-03-26T16:41:10Z Bike: i have a custom slot definition class that has a list of observer functions
2018-03-26T16:41:22Z Bike: when (setf slot-value-using-class)'s :after method is called, it calls the observers
2018-03-26T16:41:23Z Bike: that's it
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2018-03-26T16:45:03Z phoe: yep, I see.
2018-03-26T16:45:19Z phoe: I think the flag would be the best in that case.
2018-03-26T16:45:59Z Bike: it feels kind of bad, but i guess slot-boundp is worse
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2018-03-26T17:26:39Z khrbt: antoszka: yes. I will get the additional install-repl arguments working.  I attempted to collected code and fixes in various repos and branches and it looks like I missed a crucial one.
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2018-03-26T17:27:31Z antoszka: khrbt: cool, thanks, I'll be watching the repo ;)
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2018-03-26T22:27:37Z pillton: Bike: Are you sure you want the slot observer pattern? In my experience the slot observer pattern nearly always requires a predicate to test if the observers should be notified.
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2018-03-26T22:36:33Z fittestbits1: I have a question about probe-file - what "should" happen when probe-file is given a pathname that only contains a directory, but no file?
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2018-03-26T22:36:49Z fittestbits1: That is, pathname-name and pathname-type are both nil.
2018-03-26T22:37:12Z fittestbits1: SBCL returns the true pathname (assuming the directory exists)
2018-03-26T22:37:35Z pillton: clisp signals an error.
2018-03-26T22:39:14Z Shinmera: fittestbits1: uiop has a probe-file* that should behave a bit more nicely.
2018-03-26T22:39:18Z fittestbits1: Lisp works hyperspec doesn't seem to cover this case, it only talks about the "file".
2018-03-26T22:40:16Z Shinmera: Right, what designates a file is implementation-dependent. So it's up to the implementation whether probe-file should work on directories.
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2018-03-26T22:41:35Z Shinmera: If you take a look at uiop's implementation of probe-file*, you'll see it does quite a bit to make the behaviour consistent.
2018-03-26T22:41:36Z fittestbits1: OK that makes sense. I tried probe-file on SBCL on linux - I think directories there are just files
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2018-03-26T22:43:11Z fittestbits1: I'll look at uiop's implementation.
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2018-03-27T03:42:22Z drmeister: Does anyone use Python and Pandas?   Does Pandas do anything with data frames that you wouldn't do in Common Lisp with a LOOP macro over an array?
2018-03-27T03:44:41Z drmeister: I'm going to be talking to some people later in the week about writing some complex computational chemistry code and they had started doing it in Python with Pandas.  I watched a couple of talks on Pandas and it looks like it's a bunch of C code to carry out standard operations (sum, average, stdev, whatnot) on tables of values.  Stuff that one would normally do with a LOOP.
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2018-03-27T04:03:47Z koenig: drmeister: Pandas can manipulate dataframes in ways that you'd think about relational database tables.
2018-03-27T04:04:19Z koenig: So for example, if you have two dataframes that have a common column, you can "join" the dataframes together based on rows where the keys match.
2018-03-27T04:04:44Z pierpa_: When I googled "python panda" I was expecting to have to wade through pages and pages of zoological links. Incredibly, instead the first link is the right one!
2018-03-27T04:04:47Z koenig: You can also subselect dataframes into new dataframes that match only part of the data.
2018-03-27T04:05:20Z koenig: For example, select all rows out of the dataframe where the value in a specified column is > 0.01 and <=0.50.
2018-03-27T04:06:35Z koenig: Stuff like that.  It's a reasonably useful abstraction for working with data because you can express what you want to happen with the data in a single statement rather than writing a few lines of code to step-by-step loop through code.  All the looping to do the selection process happens in the (faster) C code.
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2018-03-27T04:35:00Z elderK: Hey guys, I have a quick question for you:
2018-03-27T04:35:16Z elderK: How often do you check types to ensure that the functions you write, are receiving the correct kinda thing?
2018-03-27T04:35:25Z elderK: Or do you largely not care and just have unit tests in place to make sure your stuff works?
2018-03-27T04:35:54Z elderK: I've been tinkering with Lisp on and off for several years. It was a personal thing, a long time ago, to become proficient in CL. Unfortunately, it's always been pushed back due to life :P
2018-03-27T04:36:03Z elderK: So, there are tons of little questions like this lingering in my mind.
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2018-03-27T04:43:19Z onion: elderK: "psilord | ANd, remember, in CL, a specification of a type is NOT telling the compiler to enforce that type. It is a promise from you to the compiler that you won't put anythign in there except that type :)"
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2018-03-27T04:44:09Z bjorkintosh: a promise?
2018-03-27T04:44:16Z bjorkintosh: what sort of voter is CL??
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2018-03-27T04:46:42Z elderK: onion: I was meaning through the use of functions such as check-type.
2018-03-27T04:47:45Z onion: it might be easier to make sure to send the right kind of thing than to make sure upon reception
2018-03-27T04:48:28Z pillton: elderK: I would guess that most people only specify types in order to improve performance.
2018-03-27T04:49:04Z onion: active and passive strategies; or, offensive and defensive programming. balance
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2018-03-27T04:50:09Z elderK: onion: That doesn't really answer my question :P
2018-03-27T04:51:01Z elderK: Like, do you just assume that your functions will be called correctly? Or, do you have some kind of mechanism to check? That mechanism could just be unit tests you run after build instead of littering your code with check-type, etc.
2018-03-27T04:51:19Z elderK: I mean, eventaully, a condition will be thrown or something if you do something that isn't supported by some type.
2018-03-27T04:51:39Z elderK: (Unless, of course, as you said: You've specified types and are on your honor not to break that :P)
2018-03-27T04:52:13Z onion: it will answer a lot more than just that one question js
2018-03-27T04:52:48Z elderK: ?
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2018-03-27T04:53:39Z onion: nah listen. thats called 'defensive programming'. but kid-proofing something too much reduces its practicality
2018-03-27T04:53:39Z onion: so i am saying to strike a balance between defense and offense
2018-03-27T04:53:42Z onion: if you cant understand this then you dont have to worry about the question in the first place ^_^
2018-03-27T04:55:19Z elderK: Offensive would fail fast if something came in that was unexpected.
2018-03-27T04:57:55Z onion: taking care of the offensive means there are no unexpecting things being sent out.............
2018-03-27T04:58:18Z elderK: So you're relying that whoever calls your code, doesn't send in bogus stuff.
2018-03-27T04:58:35Z onion: so thats what im saying.. make sure to not send bad data . malicious programmers are super-rare btw
2018-03-27T04:58:44Z drmeister: Is this a bug in cl-unicode?
2018-03-27T04:58:44Z drmeister: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-unicode-0.1.5/build/read.lisp#L194
2018-03-27T04:58:53Z elderK: Why didn't you just say, No, generally, we don't check types :P
2018-03-27T04:58:54Z drmeister: Nope - not that link - hang on.
2018-03-27T04:59:02Z onion: yeah. programmers especially for lisp are generally smart enough not to do something unexpected unless purposely doing so, for ex. in testing
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2018-03-27T04:59:15Z drmeister: https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/blob/master/build/read.lisp#L238
2018-03-27T04:59:31Z drmeister: binary-props*   is an accessor
2018-03-27T04:59:32Z onion: idk , sorry =)
2018-03-27T04:59:46Z elderK: onion: Fair enough :)
2018-03-27T04:59:50Z onion: sometimes we do though, but not for those reasons
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2018-03-27T04:59:59Z drmeister: It's being passed an integer    code-point
2018-03-27T05:00:14Z elderK: onion: So, to alter the question: When is it appropriate to use functions such as check-type?
2018-03-27T05:00:58Z onion: afaik type-safe CL code is generally for optimization rather than safety. generally
2018-03-27T05:01:05Z elderK nods
2018-03-27T05:01:14Z elderK: It's surprisingly difficult to snap out of the "typed" mindset.
2018-03-27T05:02:14Z onion: yeah.. ive got that issue right now
2018-03-27T05:02:18Z onion: im literally busy showing off some haskell DSL that is only type declarations
2018-03-27T05:02:49Z pillton: elderK: Note that check-type is a macro.
2018-03-27T05:02:53Z elderK: I've been doing a lot of C++ template stuff recently - the typeness of everything starts to get under your skin.
2018-03-27T05:03:01Z elderK: Ah, I wasn't aware of that, pillton.
2018-03-27T05:03:33Z elderK: There's so much to learn and so little time :( I need to spend a good chunk of time studying other CL - and working on a project as a vehicle to exercize what I learn.
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2018-03-27T05:06:40Z elderK: Other questions, too, like when it should you write a CFFI binding all by hand instead of using the Groveller? I've heard that some people prefer not to use the groveller as it adds a C compiler as a dependency.
2018-03-27T05:07:38Z elderK: And things like, how do you merge the GC'd world of Lisp with the manual-manage world of C libraries? Do you make use of finalizers? Do you expect people to manually release the resources? Do you wrap it with a convenient macro like, with-....?
2018-03-27T05:08:12Z pillton: CL isn't required to have a garbage collector.
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2018-03-27T05:09:23Z elderK: I guess that's true. Although, to pull that off, wouldn't you need some hellasmart dataflow analysis and stuff?
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2018-03-27T05:12:06Z onion: CL without GC...
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2018-03-27T05:13:37Z elderK: There's a lot in CL that would work just fine without a GC. I mean, I've seen CL -> C compilers :P
2018-03-27T05:14:16Z onion: with a GC in the runtime no doubt ?
2018-03-27T05:14:16Z elderK: And like Scheme, many functions will be able to be compiled such that they require no allocations and stuff.
2018-03-27T05:14:27Z onion: objective-c 2.0 is a C runtime with GC
2018-03-27T05:14:36Z elderK: I'm not saying you could entirely get rid of the GC. But, there's a *lot* of stuff you could do in CL without a GC.
2018-03-27T05:14:40Z elderK: onion: I'm well aware.
2018-03-27T05:14:50Z onion: indubitably
2018-03-27T05:14:56Z elderK: hehe
2018-03-27T05:15:00Z elderK: Indubitably, Captain! :P
2018-03-27T05:15:18Z onion: our local mr. aeth knows a lot of GC-averting CL tricks =)
2018-03-27T05:15:38Z elderK: :D
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2018-03-27T05:38:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-27T05:39:57Z elderK: Morning beach!
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2018-03-27T06:32:24Z Shinmera: elderK: I write C bindings by hand. I provide both a low-level package with the direct functions and structs, and a wrapper that puts everything into class instances with automatically managed memory and all.
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2018-03-27T07:06:32Z gilberth: Hi there, is any body using CCL + SLIME + Cocoa and has experienced problems with SLIME suddendly quit working?
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2018-03-27T07:25:37Z beach: Hello gilberth.  Long time no see.
2018-03-27T07:26:05Z gilberth: Hello beach.
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2018-03-27T07:26:57Z beach: gilberth: I showed your video of your CLIM implementation to the people in #clim.  I hope that was OK.
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2018-03-27T07:28:42Z gilberth: That is OK. It's my decade old idea of asynchronous update, I never was able to communicate on the original mcclim mailing list.
2018-03-27T07:29:30Z beach: I wish you would hang out in #clim and help out jackdaniel with McCLIM maintenance and improvement.  But I guess that's just wishful thinking. :)
2018-03-27T07:30:41Z pierpa:  /join clim
2018-03-27T07:30:50Z pierpa: Uff
2018-03-27T07:31:23Z gilberth: beach: I have my own CLIM. What I wish for is that we chould agree on the API for things, that are not in CLIM2.
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2018-03-27T07:31:45Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2018-03-27T07:33:08Z gilberth: Also I wish for, that we separate Silica from CLIM. I have a pretty solid implementation of the Silica for Cocoa (and PDF and SVG), when we could draw a line there, jackdaniel could potentially share my Mac implementation with his CLIM implementation.
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2018-03-27T07:33:36Z gilberth: Actually my dream is, that the Silica becomes the de facto standard to address a window system in Common Lisp, given CLIM or no CLIM.
2018-03-27T07:33:42Z bjorkintosh: what a coincidence. I was just looking at clim-demo:demodemo
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2018-03-27T07:34:16Z beach: gilberth: That sounds like a good plan.  The CLIM II specification does not separate Silica from the rest as I recall.
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2018-03-27T07:34:38Z beach: So, we would then have to dig up some Silica spec, or just write one.
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2018-03-27T07:35:22Z gilberth: beach: But we could do that. I have three domains in mind: Silica, which is just the window system and graphics (think X11), clim-asylum, which is native gadgets like a push button, and CLIM for real, which is presentation types and stuff.
2018-03-27T07:35:53Z beach: gilberth: Is your Silica code available?
2018-03-27T07:36:25Z gilberth: beach: I am very sorry: Not yet.
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2018-03-27T07:37:25Z beach: gilberth: No problem.  Any estimated time for it to be available?
2018-03-27T07:37:39Z beach: Weeks, months, years?
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2018-03-27T07:44:05Z loke: Hello gilberth
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2018-03-27T07:49:21Z jackdaniel: gilberth:  happy to share some effort. right now I'm groking and cleaning backend/mirror/sheet parts of the code - it is basically the silica part
2018-03-27T07:50:10Z jackdaniel: let me clarify: you think about separating silica as being abstraction layer between CLIM and the host Windowing system, do I understand correctly
2018-03-27T07:50:13Z jackdaniel: ?
2018-03-27T07:50:14Z beach: I should dig up some Silica documentation.
2018-03-27T07:50:39Z beach: jackdaniel: I think that is correct.
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2018-03-27T08:10:45Z elderK: Shinmera: Thanks for the info!
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2018-03-27T08:11:01Z elderK: Shinmera: That's how I usually try to do it, too. But, so far, I lack decent understanding to do the automagical release of stuff.
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2018-03-27T08:11:08Z elderK: I will do some study of other bindings.
2018-03-27T08:11:32Z elderK: Writing a simple binding for a library sounds like a decent way to cement knowledge of ASDF, CFFI, and basic Lisp.
2018-03-27T08:12:04Z Shinmera: I don't think writing a bindings library to learn lisp is a good idea
2018-03-27T08:12:49Z elderK: What would you recommend?
2018-03-27T08:12:58Z bjorkintosh: elderK, how well do you know lisp?
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2018-03-27T08:13:04Z Shinmera: Write pure lisp applications and libraries.
2018-03-27T08:13:11Z bjorkintosh: there's always pcl and little schemer :-)
2018-03-27T08:13:11Z Shinmera: Learning from existing lisp code.
2018-03-27T08:13:14Z elderK: I know how to define classes and structures, how to define macros. I know about packages and ASDF.
2018-03-27T08:13:25Z bjorkintosh: whoa! you're all set then!
2018-03-27T08:13:27Z elderK: I've been using CL and Scheme on and off for years.
2018-03-27T08:13:33Z elderK: I've just never done anything serious :P
2018-03-27T08:13:55Z elderK: This isn't to say that I can do all of it idiomatically :P
2018-03-27T08:13:59Z elderK: That's what I hope to learn :)
2018-03-27T08:14:35Z elderK: There are things I'm unsure of how to implement in CL. Like, I do a lot of parsing stuff and state machines.
2018-03-27T08:14:39Z elderK: I know how to do that reasonably well in C.
2018-03-27T08:15:01Z elderK: But I get the feeling a giant 2D matrix representing state transitions isn't the way it's done here :P
2018-03-27T08:15:10Z elderK: So, I'd like to learn how to do parsing the Lisp way.
2018-03-27T08:15:21Z Shinmera: I just write 'em by hand myself.
2018-03-27T08:15:37Z elderK: I'd also like to learn more about functional data structures. Like, implementing a nice referentially transparent AVL tree or something.
2018-03-27T08:15:37Z bjorkintosh: elderK, you mean idomatic lisp?
2018-03-27T08:15:45Z Shinmera: But there are several parser generators too.
2018-03-27T08:15:49Z elderK: Yeah.
2018-03-27T08:15:54Z elderK: I'd like to do it by hand rather than use a generator.
2018-03-27T08:16:19Z elderK: If only to ensure I understand the theory as well as practice. Try to cement it in my brain :) Once I'm golden there, I'll use generators maybe.
2018-03-27T08:16:21Z elderK: :)
2018-03-27T08:16:33Z elderK: I've been studying "Practical Parsing Techniques" for awhile now and I'm itching to play with its ideas.
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2018-03-27T08:17:29Z elderK: I'd also like to do it several ways. Like, say, recursive descent vs. LL(1) LUT driven.
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2018-03-27T08:54:57Z elderK: :( Aw.
2018-03-27T08:55:02Z elderK: I didn't mean to scare you all away :P
2018-03-27T08:55:13Z elderK: I'd appreciate any references you feel would be useful.
2018-03-27T08:55:19Z elderK: Or code you think I should study :)
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2018-03-27T09:01:07Z bjorkintosh: elderK, are you familiar with PAIP? https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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2018-03-27T09:04:29Z elderK: bjorkintosh: I've heard of it but have never read it.
2018-03-27T09:04:36Z elderK: I must also shamefully admit I have never completed SICP.
2018-03-27T09:04:46Z elderK: or LiSP. Although I made good progress through SICP and LiSP.
2018-03-27T09:04:55Z bjorkintosh: they're not the easiest books to read.
2018-03-27T09:05:02Z elderK: :) One of the things I have been meaning to do, is do SICP and complete it this time, same with LiSP.
2018-03-27T09:05:05Z bjorkintosh: PAIP is free. look at the link I posted with it.
2018-03-27T09:05:17Z elderK: It's hard finding time - University takes much of it.
2018-03-27T09:05:23Z elderK: Thank you, bjorkintosh.
2018-03-27T09:05:30Z elderK: Oh wow! PAIP is free now?
2018-03-27T09:05:34Z elderK: :D
2018-03-27T09:05:59Z antoszka: Well, you won't get the dead-tree form for free :)
2018-03-27T09:06:13Z elderK: :P That's fine. I'm legally blind so dead-tree isn't that useful to me anymore.
2018-03-27T09:06:18Z elderK: :P Digital all the way. Zoomability FTW
2018-03-27T09:06:20Z elderK: :)
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2018-03-27T09:07:41Z elderK: Is this a good book even for those not super-concerned with AI?
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2018-03-27T09:08:33Z bjorkintosh: elderK, take a look at the contents and see.
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2018-03-27T09:08:48Z shrdlu68: elderK: Yep. The AI in that book is GOFAI stuff, not the modern ML stuff.
2018-03-27T09:08:56Z elderK: GOFAI?
2018-03-27T09:09:09Z bjorkintosh: good old fashioned AI
2018-03-27T09:09:19Z bjorkintosh: it's more inductive. a dead end, really.
2018-03-27T09:09:20Z elderK: I see compilery things in the index. SOLD! :)
2018-03-27T09:09:39Z shrdlu68: Good old-fashioned AI. Herbert Simon, Allen Newell, Terry Winograd, et al. stuff.
2018-03-27T09:09:43Z elderK: Well, the AI stuff might be interesting anyway. I'm currently working through a 3rd year AI paper. It's all neural networks and such.
2018-03-27T09:09:54Z elderK: Might be interesting to see the other line as it were :)
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2018-03-27T09:10:59Z elderK: Thank you for the recommendations :)
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2018-03-27T09:12:58Z bjorkintosh: yep. it contains lots of commonlisp code.
2018-03-27T09:13:04Z bjorkintosh: lots of parsing.
2018-03-27T09:13:29Z elderK: Awesome :D :)
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2018-03-27T09:27:01Z elderK: Goodnight all :)
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2018-03-27T11:14:01Z araly: hello, I'm trying to get into lisp, but I don't really understand how to set up emacs with smile, would here be a place to ask ?
2018-03-27T11:14:18Z araly: slime*
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2018-03-27T11:21:57Z jackdaniel: araly: check out portacle for pre-configured environment https://portacle.github.io/
2018-03-27T11:22:58Z patrixl: +1 for portacle, it's how I started out too, helped me learned the basics (using Practical Common Lisp) until I was ready for more
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2018-03-27T11:23:47Z araly: I'm gonna try that thanks
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2018-03-27T13:40:46Z Xach: Shinmera: is there an easy way to get a report from the results of run-package-benchmarks?
2018-03-27T13:41:33Z Shinmera: I didn't write the suite system, but let me have a look...
2018-03-27T13:41:37Z Xach: a benchmark:report
2018-03-27T13:41:41Z Xach: ok
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2018-03-27T13:44:22Z Shinmera: There's no report type, as far as I'm aware.
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2018-03-27T13:45:05Z Xach: Oh, hah. I see who contributed it.
2018-03-27T13:45:41Z Xach: my new coworkers! i'll ask when they wake up...
2018-03-27T13:45:46Z Shinmera: Heh
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2018-03-27T14:29:50Z jjkola: hi
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2018-03-27T14:33:41Z beach: Hello jjkola.
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2018-03-27T16:04:14Z jmercouris: I'm trying to figure out why running my server works in a standalone program, but not in Slime
2018-03-27T16:04:20Z jmercouris: I'm not sure where to even begin debugging this
2018-03-27T16:04:39Z jmercouris: Is there a way to see where a Lisp process is stuck?
2018-03-27T16:05:06Z jmercouris: I'll make a request to my server, and it will just hang on responding
2018-03-27T16:05:15Z DVSSA quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-03-27T16:05:29Z dlowe: is your server running in another thread?
2018-03-27T16:05:38Z dlowe: does it use SIGIO to determine connections?
2018-03-27T16:05:40Z jmercouris: that's the thing, I don't believe it is
2018-03-27T16:05:48Z jmercouris: you might be wondering why I don't know that
2018-03-27T16:05:57Z jmercouris: it is because it is part of another user's package
2018-03-27T16:06:05Z dlowe: Using sbcl?
2018-03-27T16:06:09Z jmercouris: I am using SBCL yeah
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2018-03-27T16:06:16Z dlowe: (sb-thread:list-all-threads)
2018-03-27T16:06:41Z jmercouris: I look at the start-standard-server function where #+sbcl is, and it just makes a socket and a handler function for that socket
2018-03-27T16:06:51Z dlowe: I mean, if it's stuck in the main thread, you should be able to break into it with C-c C-c at the SLIME repl
2018-03-27T16:07:19Z dlowe: and it should drop you in the debugger
2018-03-27T16:07:49Z dlowe: some frameworks will handle all exceptions in a request handler, so there might be a configuration option to not do that
2018-03-27T16:07:54Z jmercouris: it doesn't appear that there is a new thread started when I start the server
2018-03-27T16:07:59Z jmercouris: if I look at the therad count, it is the same
2018-03-27T16:08:20Z dlowe: is this server's source online?
2018-03-27T16:08:21Z jmercouris: s/therad/thread
2018-03-27T16:08:28Z jmercouris: yeah, the server's source is online, I am looking at it
2018-03-27T16:08:49Z dlowe: could you perhaps share it with us?
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2018-03-27T16:09:10Z jmercouris: yeah one moment please
2018-03-27T16:09:38Z jmercouris: that's the source: https://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml-rpc/s-xml-rpc.tgz
2018-03-27T16:11:04Z dlowe: a tarball, really?
2018-03-27T16:11:14Z jmercouris: well, that's the only way yeah
2018-03-27T16:11:21Z jmercouris: I was going to upload my fork to github, but I haven't gotten around to that yet
2018-03-27T16:11:24Z jmercouris: I can do that if you like
2018-03-27T16:11:33Z jmercouris: my fork only features very MINOR changes
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2018-03-27T16:11:47Z dlowe: (I'm not blaming you)
2018-03-27T16:12:01Z dlowe: *xml-rpc-debug*   variable
2018-03-27T16:12:01Z dlowe: When T the XML-RPC client and server part will be more verbose about their protocol
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2018-03-27T16:12:06Z dlowe: that seems useful in the docs
2018-03-27T16:12:54Z jmercouris: yeah, I've done that
2018-03-27T16:12:58Z jmercouris: it just shows the XML and stuff like that
2018-03-27T16:13:10Z dlowe: huh. it uses straight bsd sockets
2018-03-27T16:13:15Z jmercouris: I'll try setting it in slime and see if it even gets to the recieving part
2018-03-27T16:13:25Z jmercouris: yeah the server is just setting a handler on a socket
2018-03-27T16:13:30Z jmercouris: which is why I am very confused
2018-03-27T16:13:38Z dlowe: try starting the server in its own thread.
2018-03-27T16:13:58Z dlowe: (sb-thread:start-thread "XML-RPC" (lambda () (s-xml-rpc:start-server ...)))
2018-03-27T16:14:09Z dlowe: you might have to look up the details on that call
2018-03-27T16:14:14Z jmercouris: ok, I'll give that a try, one moment
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2018-03-27T16:15:44Z jmercouris: just for reference it is make-thread
2018-03-27T16:16:05Z dlowe: it's not something I use a lot
2018-03-27T16:16:15Z jmercouris: neither I, I just writing it in chat log for someone in the future
2018-03-27T16:17:00Z jmercouris: still freezes even though it's in a separate thread
2018-03-27T16:17:06Z jmercouris: I've got this: (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (s-xml-rpc:start-xml-rpc-server :port 8081)))
2018-03-27T16:17:23Z jmercouris: when I say *freezes* I mean, the client recieves no response from the server and just waits perpetually
2018-03-27T16:17:26Z jmercouris: my prompt is still functional
2018-03-27T16:18:03Z jmercouris: let me turn on the debug as you suggested
2018-03-27T16:19:24Z jmercouris: alright, so nothing happens at all when debug is turned on
2018-03-27T16:19:35Z jmercouris: let me see if something happens when debug is turned on in a standalone sbcl
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2018-03-27T16:21:50Z jmercouris: interesting, freezing in the standalone sbcl now
2018-03-27T16:21:54Z jmercouris: maybe it is because of the therading
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2018-03-27T16:22:40Z jackdaniel: dlowe: Xach: regarding possibilities to write portable reader extension – yet another approach going around this problem is putting an artificial reader on top of the actual REPL
2018-03-27T16:23:09Z jackdaniel: if we can put linedit there then there is nothing hard to put an ordinary lisp function
2018-03-27T16:23:12Z jackdaniel: just a thought
2018-03-27T16:23:15Z dlowe: as opposed to the natural organic repl, grown from seed in only the finest metacircles?
2018-03-27T16:23:22Z jackdaniel: exactly :-)
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2018-03-27T16:24:20Z jmercouris: unbelievable, the threadin causes freezing in the standalone repl
2018-03-27T16:24:26Z jmercouris: I can't even imagine how that is possible
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2018-03-27T16:24:48Z jackdaniel: threading causing problems? I can see where it comes from
2018-03-27T16:25:01Z jackdaniel: hint: threading :-)
2018-03-27T16:25:04Z dlowe: I suspect the server's event loop is causing issues
2018-03-27T16:25:25Z jmercouris: I want to turn of debugging variables as well
2018-03-27T16:25:25Z dlowe: jackdaniel: you're missing a lot of context.
2018-03-27T16:25:30Z jmercouris: to eliminate any suspects
2018-03-27T16:25:56Z jackdaniel: I know, it was a joke from my side (hoped it will be obvious)
2018-03-27T16:26:10Z jmercouris: Alright, yes, the threading is definitely causing it to freeze somehow
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2018-03-27T16:26:22Z jmercouris: maybe it doesn't like running on something that isn't the main thread
2018-03-27T16:26:37Z jmercouris: because when I run it in a standalone sbcl, there is only *one* thread
2018-03-27T16:26:41Z dlowe: what is swank:*communication-style*
2018-03-27T16:26:56Z jmercouris: :spwan
2018-03-27T16:27:04Z jmercouris: s/:spwan/:spawn
2018-03-27T16:29:25Z jmercouris: I'm going to try (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler)
2018-03-27T16:29:53Z dlowe: hm. I see, so it uses sb-sys:add-fd-handler
2018-03-27T16:30:25Z jmercouris: what does that mean? add file descriptor handler?
2018-03-27T16:30:40Z jmercouris: is that what fd means in this context?
2018-03-27T16:30:44Z dlowe: yeah
2018-03-27T16:31:01Z dlowe: so s-xml-rpc seems to use add-fd-handler itself
2018-03-27T16:31:12Z dlowe: this suggests that using :fd-handler is indeed the asnwer http://slime-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/MOMoufl6/slime-sbcl-and-add-fd-handler
2018-03-27T16:31:35Z jmercouris: is there a disadvantage to using fd-handler?
2018-03-27T16:31:38Z jmercouris: will I experience other issues?
2018-03-27T16:32:22Z dlowe: well, try it first
2018-03-27T16:32:26Z jmercouris: well, it does work
2018-03-27T16:32:29Z jmercouris: but now I don't get the standard out
2018-03-27T16:32:36Z jmercouris: ah no wait, I do
2018-03-27T16:32:39Z jmercouris: but with a massive delay
2018-03-27T16:32:49Z dlowe: that's called buffering
2018-03-27T16:33:28Z jmercouris: Right, how can I flush that to the repl so I can see it?
2018-03-27T16:34:45Z jmercouris: maybe I should change this source to use threads...
2018-03-27T16:34:49Z jmercouris: not right now, but in the future
2018-03-27T16:36:29Z jmercouris: dlowe: thanks for helping me troubleshoot, this problem has been bothering me for like 3 weeks
2018-03-27T16:36:39Z jmercouris: perhaps even longer
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2018-03-27T16:39:08Z bjorkintosh: 3 decades maybe?
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2018-03-27T16:39:31Z jmercouris: the software is not even 2 decades old, so no, not 3 decades :)
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2018-03-27T16:55:10Z Xach: Crud! No lispworks.com??
2018-03-27T16:55:14Z Xach panics slightly
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2018-03-27T16:57:46Z jackdaniel: down for me too
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2018-03-27T16:58:18Z bjorkintosh: to the wayback machine!
2018-03-27T16:58:28Z Xach switches to clhs.lisp.se
2018-03-27T16:58:34Z pierpa: Works for me
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2018-03-27T17:00:38Z pierpa: Works intermittently
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2018-03-27T17:01:19Z Xach: hmm
2018-03-27T17:01:50Z bjorkintosh: oh the hyperspec is the reason.
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2018-03-27T17:06:02Z pierpa: It is not as loved as the clhs, but franz too have their version of the spec at https://franz.com/support/documentation/ansicl.94/ansicl.htm
2018-03-27T17:06:33Z dlowe should go back to finishing his spec cleanup.
2018-03-27T17:07:29Z bjorkintosh: perhaps the hyperspec should be a quickloadable slime extension!
2018-03-27T17:07:48Z Xach: bjorkintosh: (ql:quickload "clhs")
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2018-03-27T17:08:00Z bjorkintosh: aha! so no need to panic then?!
2018-03-27T17:08:02Z Xach: I prefer the website and l1sp.org (usually)
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2018-03-27T17:44:00Z Misha_B: Is there anything in common lisp similar to python's type hints? where a parameter or return value is typed
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2018-03-27T17:47:44Z _death: you can declare types in common lisp
2018-03-27T17:47:50Z pierpa: Are these meant for performance, type checjing, both?
2018-03-27T17:48:54Z dlowe: Misha_B: You can declare types of functions and you might get a warning when violating them.  You might also get compiler optimizations.
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2018-03-27T17:49:12Z dlowe: If you want to check types, you call check-type on values.
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2018-03-27T17:55:51Z beach: Misha_B: Why are you asking?
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2018-03-27T18:02:36Z Misha_B: I'm just curious, I think it would be good to have a option to give a requirements for using some functions, for example if a function only works with a string parameter, it would be nice to be able to say that it will only accept strings.
2018-03-27T18:03:01Z beach: Misha_B: You can do that.  Are you learning Common Lisp?
2018-03-27T18:03:14Z Misha_B: yeah, I'm still quite new though
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2018-03-27T18:03:39Z beach: clhs declare
2018-03-27T18:03:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
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2018-03-27T18:06:42Z Misha_B: thanks, although that link seems to be dead. I found a spec on clhs.lisp.se
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2018-03-27T18:14:41Z beach: Oh, right, we were just told that the LispWorks site was down.  Sorry!
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2018-03-27T19:06:56Z rme: I say this a lot, but remember that in standard CL, declare is a promise that you, the programmer, make to the compiler.
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2018-03-27T19:13:03Z phoe: so if you use this function (foo x) which has (declare (string x)) inside it, with anything other than a string, the behaviour is no longer defined - unless your code is safe, AFAIR.
2018-03-27T19:13:16Z phoe: Meaning that optimize safety 3 is proclaimed.
2018-03-27T19:15:02Z Misha_B: ah, so declare is for optimization rather than type checks
2018-03-27T19:15:26Z dlowe: sbcl will emit a warning. Sometimes. You can't rely on it, really.
2018-03-27T19:15:55Z dlowe: however, the optimizer will do the right thing after a call to check-type too, which is nice.
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2018-03-27T19:16:16Z dlowe: I'm working on a whole-image type checker, but it's slow going.
2018-03-27T19:16:20Z phoe: Misha_B: declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
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2018-03-27T19:16:50Z phoe: if you would rather want the program to make a promise to the programmer, use CHECK-TYPE or ASSERT TYPEP instead.
2018-03-27T19:16:55Z dlowe: Misha_B: you probably have never heard this before, but declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
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2018-03-27T19:17:07Z phoe: geez
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2018-03-27T19:17:16Z phoe: this was repeated three times now, right
2018-03-27T19:17:18Z phoe: sorry
2018-03-27T19:17:22Z dlowe: :D
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2018-03-27T19:17:56Z dlowe: the perils of multiple people answering a question.
2018-03-27T19:18:05Z phoe: dlowe: you mean multithreading?
2018-03-27T19:19:19Z dlowe: ask not questions of the lispers, for they will tell you T, NIL, #f, 42, STANDARD-ERROR, and declare is a promise you make to the compiler.
2018-03-27T19:20:02Z phoe: uh wai
2018-03-27T19:20:03Z phoe: t
2018-03-27T19:20:05Z phoe: what is standard-error
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2018-03-27T19:21:41Z dlowe: wrong lisp, let's say I meant SERIOUS-CONDITION
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2018-03-27T19:22:03Z phoe: (deftype silly-condition () '(and condition (not serious-condition)))
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2018-03-27T19:41:50Z onion: cl-bench is good for a CL benchmark ?
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2018-03-27T19:46:48Z jackdaniel: it is not bad if you are into this kind of things
2018-03-27T19:46:56Z jackdaniel: best benchmark is the application you are writing
2018-03-27T19:47:14Z jackdaniel: and there are two values: too slow and acceptable ,)
2018-03-27T19:47:30Z jackdaniel: that said, if you find any problems with cl-bench we are open for patches
2018-03-27T19:49:00Z onion: well i just want to see how my computer does with ECL vs. SBCL , but i have a feeling that SBCL can interop with C just as well as ECL
2018-03-27T19:49:25Z onion: heh  https://ptpb.pw/wllH
2018-03-27T19:49:37Z phoe: onion: depends on what you mean by interop
2018-03-27T19:49:55Z phoe: both can use CFFI to interface with dynamic libraries that use C calling convention
2018-03-27T19:50:19Z jackdaniel: onion: here https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/cl-bench
2018-03-27T19:50:23Z onion: phoe: i want to use C for all the C things, like SDL2 and for having control over the memory and performance of certain aspects of an idea i have, then CL for the rest
2018-03-27T19:50:31Z phoe: but ECL can be compiled as a module into C applications - C can call Lisp and Lisp can call C in it.
2018-03-27T19:50:47Z phoe: onion: ooooh, SDL2
2018-03-27T19:50:49Z jackdaniel: ECL can interface with C software at various levels
2018-03-27T19:50:54Z phoe: #lispgames might be of help here, too
2018-03-27T19:51:03Z Shinmera: There's already cl-sdl2
2018-03-27T19:51:13Z jackdaniel: one is via DFFI (slower, using libffi), second is via dlopen and the third is by inlining calls to C functions
2018-03-27T19:51:27Z jackdaniel: cl-bench won't tell you about C interop performance at all though
2018-03-27T19:52:05Z stacksmith: Damnations!  Does anyone have an easy fix to stop Emacs from opening restarts in random places - like a 2cm-wide pane I have set up for a file selector - and it does not resize?  Sometimes emacs is just determined to show everything there no matter how many times I try!
2018-03-27T19:52:21Z jackdaniel: onion: if you are interested in raw benchmark results, here aare results from my last execution: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/benchmarks/2016-05-bench-all.html
2018-03-27T19:52:36Z onion: Symbol "*INTEXP-MAXIMUM-EXPONENT*" not found in the SB-EXT package.
2018-03-27T19:52:40Z dlowe: stacksmith: I seem to remember that there is, actually
2018-03-27T19:52:41Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: there is no easy way to do that. I usually install clim debugger
2018-03-27T19:52:44Z dlowe: haha
2018-03-27T19:52:49Z jackdaniel: which opens a new window for errors
2018-03-27T19:52:52Z jackdaniel: without messing my frames
2018-03-27T19:53:01Z jackdaniel: in emacs
2018-03-27T19:53:16Z onion: Shinmera: ive got mega problems with threading and repl with SDL[2], so i want to build my own lisp binary that starts up with SDL window already, and connect to that with slime
2018-03-27T19:53:38Z dlowe: stacksmith: M-: (set-window-dedicated-p (get-buffer-window (current-buffer)))
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2018-03-27T19:54:11Z onion: jackdaniel: cool thanks for the links, digesting
2018-03-27T19:54:17Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: (ql:quickload 'clim-debugger) (clim-debugger:install-debugger) ; will do
2018-03-27T19:54:48Z stacksmith: I I'll give it a shot in a bit, I don't like to fuck everything at once.
2018-03-27T19:54:48Z jackdaniel: for clim debugger (not as good as slime's right now, but it is OK)
2018-03-27T19:55:05Z Bike: onion: intexp maximum exponent was removed, like, a while ago
2018-03-27T19:55:06Z dlowe: stacksmith: do my thing and it will actually do what you asked for
2018-03-27T19:55:17Z dlowe: and not some weird other thing like jackdaniel is proposing
2018-03-27T19:55:25Z onion: jackdaniel: what are the colors ?
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2018-03-27T19:55:46Z stacksmith: dlowe: oh, thanks, I was furiously clicking and missed it!
2018-03-27T19:55:51Z onion: Bike: heh i see. cl-bench is too old for me then
2018-03-27T19:55:54Z Bike: oh, i see, this code still refers to intexp maximum exponent
2018-03-27T19:55:56Z Bike: it should not
2018-03-27T19:56:04Z jackdaniel: purple means terrible, red means bad, yellow means acceptable, green means good
2018-03-27T19:56:08Z onion: hmm
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2018-03-27T19:56:57Z jackdaniel: dlowe: installing alternative debugger is hardly weird
2018-03-27T19:57:07Z stacksmith: dlowe: my emacs does not recognize set-window-dedicated-p
2018-03-27T19:57:10Z jackdaniel: for instance slime installs its own debugger to replace the one proposed by the implementation
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2018-03-27T19:57:42Z stacksmith: jackdaniel: it's not a good time when I can't see an error message and don't want to lose hours of work....
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2018-03-27T19:58:01Z dlowe: stacksmith: are you trying to use it via M-x?
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2018-03-27T19:59:11Z stacksmith: yeah
2018-03-27T19:59:18Z dlowe: that's not what I typed.
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2018-03-27T20:02:08Z onion: jackdaniel: ok i see. got cl-bench going here
2018-03-27T20:02:15Z stacksmith: Oh, you are right. My x finger is twitchy.
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2018-03-27T20:05:02Z stacksmith: dlowe: it says 'Wrong number of arguments: set-window-dedicated-p, 1
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2018-03-27T20:05:54Z onion: hmm ECL much faster than SBCL on bignums
2018-03-27T20:06:24Z onion: terrible on GC... much faster on CLOS/methodcalls.. hmm
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2018-03-27T20:07:03Z onion: sbcl is not so good with defmethod and methodcalls compared with ECL, both latest. hmm =)
2018-03-27T20:07:12Z dlowe: stacksmith: add a t on the end inside the last paren
2018-03-27T20:07:13Z jackdaniel: as a rule of a thumb: if you are after speed use sbcl
2018-03-27T20:07:30Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in interop both ways (C <-> CL) go with ECL
2018-03-27T20:07:52Z jackdaniel: that includes so builds and embedding in C app runtime
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2018-03-27T20:08:08Z dlowe: I belive uses the GNU bignum library, which has hand-optimized assembly and is hard to compete with.
2018-03-27T20:08:12Z onion: jackdaniel: hmm. if i stick to CL, both options are available
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2018-03-27T20:08:25Z onion: ECL being terrible with GC is probably the worst news
2018-03-27T20:08:30Z jackdaniel: sure, writing portable applications is best
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2018-03-27T20:08:52Z jackdaniel: in my experience ECL is not terrible with GC
2018-03-27T20:09:13Z onion:  BOEHM-GC  6.075  0.945    -- yeah i just meant in the benchmark
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2018-03-27T20:09:37Z onion: as i would have my "core" data in C without GC
2018-03-27T20:10:27Z jackdaniel: cl-bench tests how some singular operations perform many times
2018-03-27T20:10:38Z jackdaniel: that's hardly a typical use case
2018-03-27T20:10:49Z jackdaniel: that's why I said that the best benchmark is your actual application
2018-03-27T20:10:54Z rme: You are already being misled by the pretty colors on the report.  You have to know understand what the benchmarks are measuring.
2018-03-27T20:10:56Z stacksmith: dlowe, it's not helping.  I really hate Emacs.  What a giant pile of doody.
2018-03-27T20:11:30Z stacksmith: It's possible I made that shitty window permanent...)
2018-03-27T20:11:33Z jackdaniel: for instance program like this: (defun main () (loop (sleep 1) (print "hi"))) will perform quite similar on any Lisp :)
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2018-03-27T20:11:47Z drdo: stacksmith: call tech support
2018-03-27T20:12:12Z onion: jackdaniel: yeah, for sure =)
2018-03-27T20:12:18Z semz: Is there a CL that's known to work (without much trouble) on musl libc? The only I found so far is ECL, which appears to have issues with SLIME.
2018-03-27T20:12:29Z semz: Usually I'd go with SBCL, but cross compiling that seems... involved
2018-03-27T20:12:33Z onion: rme: also true, i try to leave room for that lack of knowledge as well
2018-03-27T20:12:37Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by issues with slime?
2018-03-27T20:12:49Z semz: The connection often breaks for no discernible reason
2018-03-27T20:12:55Z jackdaniel: ECL works fine with musl and uclibc according to what people say
2018-03-27T20:13:22Z jackdaniel: as of connection: do you use up to date ECL and up to date Slime?
2018-03-27T20:14:09Z jackdaniel: either way musl libc or glibc shouldn't make any difference with ECL-Slime interop
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2018-03-27T20:15:37Z jackdaniel: I'm off to bed, good night \o
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2018-03-27T20:16:12Z onion: gn
2018-03-27T20:16:24Z onion: what is the best way to 'browse' all of CL? clhs, slime, or ?
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2018-03-27T20:22:19Z Xach: onion: I found reading cltl2 from start to finish was interesting and easier to read than the hyperspec
2018-03-27T20:22:29Z Xach: onion: but it is important to note it is not CL, but a pre-CL
2018-03-27T20:22:40Z onion: despite its name ?
2018-03-27T20:22:59Z rme: Well, pre-ANSI CL at any rate.
2018-03-27T20:23:00Z Xach: it is easier to read because the prose is a little more lively. i appreciate the dry prose of the spec as spec.
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2018-03-27T20:23:52Z onion: ahh, and me as well having trouble getting the 'human feel' from clhs
2018-03-27T20:24:06Z onion: i've always thought it would be better if it were just code, the spec
2018-03-27T20:24:15Z onion opens cltl2
2018-03-27T20:24:19Z Xach: an opinion shared by a notable onion hater
2018-03-27T20:25:12Z Xach: paul graham brought up the idea of arc's code being its spec, and mccarthy said "isn't it easier to understand 'inverts a matrix' than the code to invert a matrix"
2018-03-27T20:25:57Z onion: hmmm =)
2018-03-27T20:26:59Z comborico1611: Indeed.
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2018-03-27T20:28:50Z semz: jackdaniel: Updating Slime from 2.15 to 2.20 seems to have done the job somehow. I have no idea what's going on but oh well, thanks.
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2018-03-27T20:41:07Z stacksmith: I've had many ideas like that to avoid documenting code...
2018-03-27T20:42:57Z onion: for a spec it would make sense to have some reference implementation stuff, like opengl, and like SICL
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2018-03-27T20:48:22Z semz: Implementations from scratch are really valuable imo, and having a reference implementation discourages them
2018-03-27T20:48:34Z semz: iirc a few oversights in CL were found that way
2018-03-27T20:49:09Z onion: ah=)
2018-03-27T20:49:14Z Xach: MIT loop is an example of that situation
2018-03-27T20:49:24Z Xach: that is german for "WITH loop"
2018-03-27T20:49:41Z onion: i wonder about a hyper-minimal CL impl
2018-03-27T20:49:55Z onion: hah
2018-03-27T20:49:59Z Xach: onion: there has been some discussion along those lines in the distant past
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2018-03-27T20:50:19Z Bike: cl is pretty maximal.
2018-03-27T20:50:27Z onion: CL has a lot of special forms and cases beyond the simplicity of 'just lisp' ofc
2018-03-27T20:50:36Z Xach: onion: https://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html
2018-03-27T20:50:37Z onion: maximal? complete, all-encompassing ?
2018-03-27T20:51:05Z Bike: special operators aren't the problem. that's just the evaluation semantics being a bit involved. you can do weirder shit with call/cc.
2018-03-27T20:51:31Z Xach: (i wish i had an easy way to migrate off livejournal!)
2018-03-27T20:51:34Z Bike: what makes "minimal" difficult is things like format.
2018-03-27T20:51:46Z onion: Xach: interesting =)
2018-03-27T20:52:05Z onion: Bike: and loop, and possibly clos ?
2018-03-27T20:52:10Z Bike: yes.
2018-03-27T20:52:20Z Shinmera: The compiler is a big thing that's easy to underestimate.
2018-03-27T20:52:22Z onion: numeric tower i can see also being part of the "bigger" parts
2018-03-27T20:52:37Z onion: yea, the compiler im thinking is most of a implementation
2018-03-27T20:52:39Z onion: an*
2018-03-27T20:53:08Z onion: which actually clears a lot of my insecurities or unsurities about fully investing 100% to CL
2018-03-27T20:53:08Z Bike: honestly, the basic semantics aren't hard. you can write a dumb implementation in a page except for lambda list parsing and declare special.
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2018-03-27T20:53:27Z Bike: not that those are unnecessary parts or anything.
2018-03-27T20:53:31Z Shinmera: Bike: What about fasl semantics
2018-03-27T20:54:04Z Bike: i was thinking of an evaluator. compile-file does make it more difficult, yes.
2018-03-27T20:55:18Z Bike: though load time stuff is mostly a graph traversal
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2018-03-27T21:09:41Z rumbler31: dlow: what does  M-: (set-window-dedicated-p (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))) do? emacs apropos doesn't help me here
2018-03-27T21:10:40Z Shinmera: rumbler31: It makes it so that the window of your currently selected buffer won't be replaced or split.
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2018-03-27T21:21:08Z rumbler31: ah, that had been bugging me
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2018-03-27T21:23:06Z jeosol: Hi guys, is there a way to free resources held in CL slime session. I'm running SBCL. I have some lparallel threads with status running -- these were from some terminated jobs.
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2018-03-27T21:28:00Z Bike: well, you can use sb-thread: list-all-threads and destroy-thread for dangerzone.
2018-03-27T21:29:30Z onion: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/vseloved-rutils-160510101158/95/sugaring-lisp-for-the-21st-century-3-638.jpg?cb=1462875172
2018-03-27T21:31:01Z jeosol: @bike: dangerzone?
2018-03-27T21:31:50Z jeosol: do you mean unpredictability?
2018-03-27T21:32:28Z Bike: yes. it's kind of a rough way of doing things.
2018-03-27T21:32:37Z Bike: of course if the threads aren't actually doing anything it's probably fine.
2018-03-27T21:32:47Z jeosol: I see the threads with first command ...
2018-03-27T21:33:14Z jeosol: I run new commands and it just hangs, normally, I will quit, reload and start over again
2018-03-27T21:33:25Z stacksmith: rumbler31: In my case it locked the very window I did not want because it's not resizable and about 20 characters wide, - to the task of outputting restarts and messages from slime.
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2018-03-28T01:56:03Z ebrasca: What is anaphoric macro?
2018-03-28T01:57:21Z Bike: a macro that expands into bindings of particular symbols not in the macro form, like 'it'
2018-03-28T01:57:24Z Bike: or something like that.
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2018-03-28T02:36:41Z ebrasca: Bike: I don't understand why it is good.
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2018-03-28T02:40:23Z Bike: i don't really have an opinion on it
2018-03-28T02:40:47Z Bike: well, i guess it's sometimes convenient for conditionals
2018-03-28T02:41:51Z onion: ive seen it used to pass in a straight list (..it..) rather than (lambda (it) ...)
2018-03-28T02:42:45Z onion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro  <-- couple examples here. hmm
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2018-03-28T02:45:09Z ebrasca: onion: I have found it in wikipedia and after not understanding it in wikipedia I asked here.
2018-03-28T02:45:34Z Bike: i like how both the loop examples are completely pointless
2018-03-28T02:45:40Z onion: okay. i just found it there, was sharing with Bike mostly
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2018-03-28T02:49:27Z ebrasca: For me alambda lock good.
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2018-03-28T02:57:57Z pillton: Shouldn't AIF be `(let ((,(intern "IT") ,test-form)) ..)  ?
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2018-03-28T02:59:59Z pillton didn't know LOOP bound IT.
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2018-03-28T03:11:47Z pierpa: why do you want to intern a new IT?
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2018-03-28T03:14:15Z Bike: so that the 'it' symbol is in the same package as the rest of the code.
2018-03-28T03:15:35Z pierpa: and why one would want this?
2018-03-28T03:15:52Z Bike: it's convenient
2018-03-28T03:16:12Z pierpa: hmmm
2018-03-28T03:16:23Z pillton: For the same reason you wouldn't want to do (cl:loop cl:for cl:= ...).
2018-03-28T03:17:30Z pierpa: cl:loop is exceptional in this regard
2018-03-28T03:18:07Z Bike: is it
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2018-03-28T03:26:28Z pierpa: FWIW, LOOP does not intern any symbol anywhere. LOOP matches its keywords using their SYMBOL-NAMEs. So it's not similar.
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2018-03-28T03:27:35Z pillton: Right. If you had a code walker you could implement AIF the same way then.
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2018-03-28T03:29:06Z Bike: i think defstruct is the only standard macro that interns like that
2018-03-28T03:30:21Z pierpa: I can't think of any other, indeed
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2018-03-28T04:10:47Z vtomole: Where do i tell quicklisp to run what's in "/var/www" instead of "quicklisp/local-projects"? I've been seeing if i can modify a line or two in setup.lisp
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2018-03-28T04:25:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-03-28T04:25:13Z loke: Beach!
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2018-03-28T04:27:41Z epony: morning
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2018-03-28T04:39:43Z SaganMan: Morning！
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2018-03-28T04:53:54Z aeth: Is the hyperspec down for anyone else?
2018-03-28T04:53:59Z aeth: (Good thing I have a local copy!)
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2018-03-28T04:59:01Z SaganMan: yes, it's down for me
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2018-03-28T05:00:12Z SaganMan: aeth: haven't you installed the emacs extension of hyperspec? I think it maintains hyperspec offline.
2018-03-28T05:01:50Z aeth: What works the best for my workflow is to use !l1sp to search the (online) hyperspec via l1sp via duckduckgo
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2018-03-28T05:03:08Z SaganMan: nice
2018-03-28T05:03:09Z stacksmith: Good morning!
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2018-03-28T05:13:17Z stacksmith: aeth: may I inquire why such fabulous privacy measures?  Are you afraid Google may realize you are a Lisp coder?
2018-03-28T05:14:06Z onion: M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup
2018-03-28T05:14:08Z SaganMan: btw I also use duckduckgo
2018-03-28T05:14:38Z stacksmith: I use startpage myself
2018-03-28T05:15:17Z SaganMan: When there's reliable alternate available, why google?
2018-03-28T05:15:50Z stacksmith: I've been using https://zealdocs.org/ for a couple of months.  It's pretty straightforward and fast.
2018-03-28T05:15:57Z stacksmith: Locally
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2018-03-28T05:23:12Z aeth: stacksmith: "!l1sp foo" is a direct search for "foo" on l1sp, i.e. http://l1sp.org/search?q=foo
2018-03-28T05:23:58Z aeth: (which, in turn, is a better search of the hyperspec than the hyperspec's own search imo)
2018-03-28T05:24:19Z jackdaniel: right, l1sp.org is my favourite lookup service (thanks Xach !), it looks over a few sources: clhs, pcl, clim spec
2018-03-28T05:24:45Z aeth: DuckDuckGo is excellent when you use it to interface with another, specialized search
2018-03-28T05:24:46Z jackdaniel: (and a few other, like cffi doc etc)
2018-03-28T05:25:11Z jackdaniel: oh, didn't know that ddg has integration for it, thanks for the hint
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2018-03-28T05:45:08Z onion: why dont slime sbcl errors show source file location ?
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2018-03-28T05:47:52Z beach: One possibility is that your DEBUG setting is not high enough.
2018-03-28T05:48:49Z beach: onion: Are you using the default settings?
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2018-03-28T05:49:21Z onion: yeah
2018-03-28T05:49:24Z beach: That is often not good enough.
2018-03-28T05:49:44Z beach: onion: If I were you, I would set it to 3 in your .sbclrc.
2018-03-28T05:51:47Z onion: kk
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2018-03-28T05:51:57Z jackdaniel: onion: try pressing "v" over the function
2018-03-28T05:52:15Z jackdaniel: it should open a buffer with the source of the call
2018-03-28T05:52:39Z beach: Oh, I assumed onion had already done that.
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2018-03-28T06:30:48Z asarch: Two questions about SBCL: Is there any way to save into a file what you have entered in the listener so far and, how do you enable history? :history #p"~/.sbcl.history" doesn't work in ~/.sbclrc?
2018-03-28T06:31:22Z beach: asarch: You would typically do all that through SLIME.
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2018-03-28T06:31:37Z beach: Then you have everything in an Emacs buffer, and you can save it as you please.
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2018-03-28T06:31:59Z beach: Plus, that SLIME keeps the history, so that you can use the standard Emacs commands like M-p, M-r, etc.
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2018-03-28T06:34:03Z jackdaniel: asarch: if you are interested in recording your session, there is "dribble" function being part of cl standard
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2018-03-28T06:34:38Z asarch: Thank you
2018-03-28T06:34:44Z asarch: Thank you very much guys :-)
2018-03-28T06:34:49Z asarch takes notes...
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2018-03-28T06:46:31Z kristof: Hello everyone
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2018-03-28T06:47:48Z ebzzry: Is lispworks.com down for everyone, too?
2018-03-28T06:48:04Z kristof: I had a minor religious experience and decided to "come home". I'd like to contribute to sbcl if possible and do my part to preserve the ancient wisdom...
2018-03-28T06:48:40Z shrdlu68: ebzzry: Yep.
2018-03-28T06:48:47Z ebzzry: shrdlu68: ok
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2018-03-28T06:51:09Z shrdlu68: kristof: Too late. All is lost.
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2018-03-28T06:54:10Z kristof: shrdlu68: Haven't you read A Canticle for Leibowitz? Faith is more powerful than anything else in this world.
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2018-03-28T06:59:47Z epony: sad to hear you neglect gravity
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2018-03-28T07:07:17Z shrdlu68: kristof: Welcome back. I'm not all that despondent, just jesting. Interesting book, reminds me of Neal Stephenson's Anathem.
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2018-03-28T07:10:10Z kristof: shrdlu68: I think the last time I was in this IRC channel was.. '13, maybe '14. It's been a bit.
2018-03-28T07:10:51Z kristof: Not familiar with Anathem, I'll have to check it out. The title sounds a bit like an homage.
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2018-03-28T07:35:22Z loke: Hello kri
2018-03-28T07:35:31Z loke: hmm, le left
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2018-03-28T07:46:10Z araly: hi everyone
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2018-03-28T07:48:02Z araly: I'm trying to learn lisp and I'm having a few questions on variables, I can't seem to be able to create a variable that's local to a function, but defined in a loop in the function
2018-03-28T07:49:02Z stacksmith: Heh.
2018-03-28T07:49:26Z shrdlu68: araly: What do you mean? Write some sample code to demonstrate.
2018-03-28T07:49:54Z stacksmith: Loop does it's own thing, but always local.
2018-03-28T07:50:18Z loke: araly: I think you need to share some code to explain what you're doing.
2018-03-28T07:50:56Z araly: I'm trying to solve an exercise I found, here's a funciton i use https://pastebin.com/i0b1ZsuB
2018-03-28T07:51:21Z araly: is pastebin okay or should something else ?
2018-03-28T07:51:54Z stacksmith: OK, you need some basic instruction.  First of all, let forms need to enclose the scope.  What you have will not work.
2018-03-28T07:52:43Z araly: okay, so variables declared in let die at the end of the let parenthesis
2018-03-28T07:52:47Z stacksmith: By the time you hit your first loop, subtotal-left is gone.
2018-03-28T07:53:11Z shrdlu68: araly: Exactly
2018-03-28T07:53:21Z stacksmith: Yes, the point of let is to provide a lexical scope, up to the end of the paren.
2018-03-28T07:53:23Z araly: so should I just put the loops in a let function or is there a better way ?
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2018-03-28T07:53:47Z loke: (progn (let ((x ...)) x-is-availabl-here) but-not-here)
2018-03-28T07:54:03Z shrdlu68: (let ((foo 0))...do stuff with foo here...)
2018-03-28T07:54:14Z araly: okay
2018-03-28T07:54:29Z shrdlu68: Let also overshadows variables if they are already in that scope.
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2018-03-28T07:54:52Z stacksmith: Loop can actually do everything, including keeping totals, minimizing or maximizing, creating variables etc.
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2018-03-28T07:55:07Z stacksmith: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
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2018-03-28T07:55:43Z araly: the function didn't work with defining the variables with defvar too
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2018-03-28T07:55:59Z stacksmith: What you have cannot possibly work.
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2018-03-28T07:56:40Z antoszka: araly: Yeah, but since you're using LOOP anyway, try using it's built-in features such as maximize.
2018-03-28T07:56:54Z antoszka: See the link suggested by stacksmith.
2018-03-28T07:57:14Z shrdlu68: araly: Which book are you learning CL with?
2018-03-28T07:57:47Z stacksmith: Just remember - lexical scope means that your let bindings are only visible inside the braces...
2018-03-28T07:58:45Z araly: I actually started with the same book, tried searching for stuff around, I asked here yesterday as I coundl't set up emacs so someone advised portacle which is what I'm using now
2018-03-28T07:59:34Z stacksmith: That book is pretty good. also http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/loop.html
2018-03-28T07:59:35Z araly: I'm kind of searching for information as I go, I wanted to try some exercises, didn't want to just read ^^
2018-03-28T07:59:51Z araly: okay I didn't know that one
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2018-03-28T08:00:24Z shrdlu68: araly: Cool, that's ok. But reading a chapter or two would really help.
2018-03-28T08:00:41Z araly: yeah, I'll keep that in mind
2018-03-28T08:01:11Z stacksmith: You really need to bone up on how to use let and what lexical bindings mean...
2018-03-28T08:01:54Z araly: okay, I'm just starting, learned about lisp 2 days ago ^^
2018-03-28T08:01:59Z stacksmith: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2018-03-28T08:02:20Z shrdlu68: araly: Checking out a few exercices, especially the simpler ones, on rosettacode.com would also give you a feel of how CL works.
2018-03-28T08:02:36Z stacksmith: You have a wonderful experience ahead of you.  Enjoy it.
2018-03-28T08:02:39Z araly: rosettacode is where I found the water on towers problem
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2018-03-28T08:02:54Z araly: looks like a great website
2018-03-28T08:02:57Z antoszka: araly: you might also want to hang around on #clnoobs, it's usually easier to get someone hand-hold you with basic problems there :)
2018-03-28T08:03:19Z araly: okay
2018-03-28T08:03:47Z shrdlu68: araly: I mean reading/playing around with already-solved problems.
2018-03-28T08:04:44Z araly: sure, maybe I'll look at it later, but this seems solvable, I'll try harder :3
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2018-03-28T09:27:10Z johnnymacs: What advantage does lisp have over forth
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2018-03-28T09:29:43Z jackdaniel: it has less letters in its name
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2018-03-28T09:29:46Z beach: johnnymacs: CLOS.
2018-03-28T09:30:01Z beach: jackdaniel: "fewer" :)
2018-03-28T09:30:05Z jackdaniel: common lisp is another story - it has more letters (and it is an adventage too :-)
2018-03-28T09:30:09Z jackdaniel: ah, OK
2018-03-28T09:30:13Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2018-03-28T09:30:21Z beach: johnnymacs: Very strange question.
2018-03-28T09:30:34Z beach: johnnymacs: Especially in a Common Lisp IRC channel.
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2018-03-28T09:31:28Z beach: johnnymacs: You can look at this site and compare what it says to what you know about Forth: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
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2018-03-28T09:37:59Z johnnymacs: My embedded common lisp core is 6288 bytes on my machine. But that must not contain the entire common lisp standard.
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2018-03-28T09:38:09Z johnnymacs: Simply a core which can run the standard
2018-03-28T09:38:38Z beach: There is probably a shared library as well.
2018-03-28T09:39:35Z johnnymacs: what is the function of the shared library
2018-03-28T09:39:56Z beach: Storing all the stuff that is not in the executable I would think.
2018-03-28T09:40:04Z beach: Like all the code that is shared.
2018-03-28T09:40:35Z johnnymacs: Like the data/code as opposed to the runtime?
2018-03-28T09:40:58Z beach: johnnymacs: What is the runtime to you if it is not data and code?
2018-03-28T09:41:22Z johnnymacs: The runtime is a small kernel file likely written in c or assembler that can process common lisp
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2018-03-28T09:42:12Z beach: johnnymacs: I think you are confused about Common Lisp.  In order to process Common Lisp code, you need a compiler or an interpreter.  Those are not small.  You also need a garbage collector, and a huge library of functions.
2018-03-28T09:42:41Z johnnymacs: So a common lisp core can not fit into 6288 bytes
2018-03-28T09:43:12Z beach: That would be very unusual, yes.
2018-03-28T09:43:13Z jackdaniel: given it has around 1000 symbols, where each has probably mor than 6 letter, then no
2018-03-28T09:43:20Z jackdaniel: more*
2018-03-28T09:43:24Z jackdaniel: letters*
2018-03-28T09:43:33Z beach: jackdaniel: Very good point.
2018-03-28T09:43:43Z beach: Plus, each symbol has a few slots too.
2018-03-28T09:44:09Z jackdaniel: sure, my point is that even without any logic, bare symbol list wouldn't fit there
2018-03-28T09:44:11Z johnnymacs: So common lisp would not fit on the average microcontroller
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2018-03-28T09:44:13Z jackdaniel: johnnymacs: you want scheme
2018-03-28T09:44:18Z jackdaniel: or ulisp
2018-03-28T09:45:00Z johnnymacs: What logical reason would I want scheme for?
2018-03-28T09:45:01Z jackdaniel: http://www.ulisp.com/, https://github.com/ryansuchocki/microscheme
2018-03-28T09:45:11Z johnnymacs: Ulisp is not common lisp.
2018-03-28T09:45:16Z jackdaniel: well, you want small language which is possible to fit on microcontroller
2018-03-28T09:45:27Z johnnymacs: So common lisp can not fit on a microcontroller?
2018-03-28T09:45:38Z jackdaniel: common lisp is considerably big
2018-03-28T09:45:43Z jackdaniel: it can't
2018-03-28T09:45:59Z johnnymacs: but scheme can?
2018-03-28T09:46:19Z shrdlu68: I suspect it would be possible to write an implementatio that is size-conscious, through tree-shaking and such techniques.
2018-03-28T09:46:20Z jackdaniel: rather microscheme
2018-03-28T09:46:38Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: but you would not have common lisp on microcontroler, just a result of running cl program
2018-03-28T09:46:51Z jackdaniel: i.e you wouldn't be able to call compile on conforming cl function on such microcontroler
2018-03-28T09:47:01Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Which is what most programs really are.
2018-03-28T09:47:17Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: which is not Common Lisp though
2018-03-28T09:47:32Z shrdlu68: Most programs don't need to ship with a CL interpreter.
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2018-03-28T09:47:44Z jackdaniel: that's not the subject of this debate
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2018-03-28T09:47:58Z jackdaniel: or rather, subject of his question
2018-03-28T09:49:40Z smokeink: so it wouldn't be possible to make a CL implementation that targets a single architecture let's say, and it's all coded in ASM and it's specifically designed to be small and fast ?
2018-03-28T09:50:13Z dim: is that Mezzano?
2018-03-28T09:50:32Z shrdlu68: smokeink: That's entirely possible.
2018-03-28T09:50:38Z jackdaniel: I don't understand where did this question come from. there were such implementations which were small, coded in ASM and designed to be small and fast
2018-03-28T09:50:44Z jackdaniel: still they wouldn't fit on microcontroller
2018-03-28T09:51:00Z easye: Anybody have suggestions on the current state of the ecosystem on building native libraries from some kind of integration ASDF definitions?
2018-03-28T09:51:00Z jackdaniel: corman cl was written with hand assembly in many parts from what I've been told
2018-03-28T09:51:35Z jackdaniel: like shared objects? ECL can do that with asdf:make-build
2018-03-28T09:51:47Z jackdaniel: there is also program-op mechanism I'm not very much familiar with
2018-03-28T09:51:50Z Shinmera: I think he means building external shared libraries as part of your CL library.
2018-03-28T09:52:07Z jackdaniel: ah, makes sense
2018-03-28T09:52:11Z easye: Shinmera: Yes.
2018-03-28T09:52:32Z jackdaniel: you may look at unix-dso extension (i.e it is used in clsql)
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2018-03-28T09:52:46Z Shinmera: Well, I wrote ABCD once but it was abandoned. Other than that I guess you can write a couple of additional ASDF ops to run make or gcc or something.
2018-03-28T09:52:50Z jackdaniel: osicat also builds its own wrapper as so I think
2018-03-28T09:53:24Z easye: I am invoking a single bash script at the moment, using a CLOS before on asdf:compile-op, but I get the feeling that someone must have already gone down this route.  But five minutes of duckduckgo'n didn't show anything useful.
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2018-03-28T09:53:34Z jackdaniel: groveller *uses* C compiler, not sure if it could be integrated to other systems
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2018-03-28T09:53:57Z Shinmera: easye: That's not the ideal way of doing that indeed.
2018-03-28T09:53:58Z jackdaniel: easye: I'd examine ASD definitions of clsql, osicat and cffi-groveller for ideas
2018-03-28T09:54:11Z easye: Is ABCD still public?  Maybe I can profit from studying its bones?
2018-03-28T09:54:17Z Shinmera: It is, but no.
2018-03-28T09:54:22Z easye: jackdaniel:  Thanks.
2018-03-28T09:54:24Z Shinmera: I don't recommend looking at it.
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2018-03-28T09:55:13Z easye: Ok, looking at clsql seems very fruitful.  Thanks!
2018-03-28T09:55:27Z jackdaniel: easye: also, practical tip: don't depends on SBCL's auto-reload library functionality, write init and terminate functions. otherwise your software will most likely work on your own host, but will crash on production
2018-03-28T09:55:36Z jackdaniel: use cffi:load-libraries and cffi:close-libraries
2018-03-28T09:55:53Z Shinmera: What you want to do is something like (defclass c-file (asdf:file-component) ((flags :initarg :flags :accessor flags))) (defmethod asdf:perform ((file c-file) (op asdf:compile-op)) ..invoke gcc..) and the same for a final linking step.
2018-03-28T09:56:08Z jackdaniel: (SBCL assumes, that so is present at the exact same location it was before you called save-lisp-and-die)
2018-03-28T09:56:34Z easye: jackdaniel: "production" at the moment will be LispWorks.  Is the auto-reload an SBCL specific problem?
2018-03-28T09:56:36Z jackdaniel: s/production/practically any other machine/
2018-03-28T09:56:40Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Indeed. One should use something like the Deploy library to handle the closing/reopening and relocating part automatically.
2018-03-28T09:56:56Z jackdaniel: or simply write init/terminate functions :-)
2018-03-28T09:57:22Z jackdaniel: easye: I have never used LW, but I'd still unload and load libraries manually
2018-03-28T09:57:38Z easye: jackdaniel: Thanks for the advice, then.
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2018-03-28T09:58:31Z jackdaniel: sure :)
2018-03-28T09:58:48Z easye: You coming to ELS?
2018-03-28T09:59:24Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-03-28T10:00:24Z easye: Shinmera: Thanks for the outline of a structure for ASDF.  It is roughly what I expect to have to do.  One subtlety is ensuring that the OS has the correct "development environment" setup to do the compile.
2018-03-28T10:00:45Z Shinmera: Well, yes, as always when dealing with foreign tools.
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2018-03-28T10:00:59Z easye: jackdaniel: Excellent.  Hopefully we get a chance to chat on implementer issues.
2018-03-28T10:01:12Z jackdaniel: looking forward to it
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2018-03-28T10:07:56Z beach: I wouldn't be surprised if there were a record number of participants this year.
2018-03-28T10:08:10Z beach: I have heard several people say that they intend to go for the first time.
2018-03-28T10:08:32Z easye: Shall we start a pool?
2018-03-28T10:08:35Z Shinmera is conflicted because he wants ELS to succeed, but also preferred the more relaxed / small attendance of his first time
2018-03-28T10:08:46Z easye: Hopefully we break (expt 10 2)
2018-03-28T10:08:58Z beach: That's what I am guessing, yes.
2018-03-28T10:09:21Z easye: Shinmera: if we have those kinda problems, we can resurrect ECLM
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2018-03-28T10:11:20Z Shinmera: I don't think my loner attitude should become the problem of other people :)
2018-03-28T10:11:28Z jackdaniel: I personally better like idea of a more diverse audience
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2018-03-28T10:12:09Z jackdaniel: (I'm afraid that ECLM may happen to be too narrowed)
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2018-03-28T10:16:21Z easye: Shinmera: I totally appreciate the intimacy of a small conference.
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2018-03-28T11:47:55Z pierpa: Lispworks.com is back up
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2018-03-28T12:24:50Z pfdietz: When is the next ELS after this one?  2020?
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2018-03-28T12:25:02Z Shinmera: It's yearly.
2018-03-28T12:25:10Z pfdietz: Ok, thanks.
2018-03-28T12:25:14Z Shinmera: So far anyway. https://european-lisp-symposium.org/
2018-03-28T12:25:32Z pfdietz: I wonder if it could be held in Kyiv.  Lots of lisp people there.
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2018-03-28T12:37:12Z jackdaniel: not so far from Przemyśl :-)
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2018-03-28T12:45:54Z vtomole: Is there a better way of giving the location of a project besides (push #p"/projects/my-project/" asdf:*central-registry*) for quicklisp? I'm looking at how to change what directory quicklisp looks at.
2018-03-28T12:46:23Z Xach: vtomole: i like to put them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ - that's a "magic" place to quicklisp.
2018-03-28T12:46:38Z Xach: vtomole: quicklisp will find things if asdf can, and asdf has a rich and complex way to specify where it works.
2018-03-28T12:46:41Z Xach: where it looks, rather.
2018-03-28T12:47:08Z jackdaniel symlinks the thing in local-projects
2018-03-28T12:47:17Z Xach: it's so rich and complex that i can't always understand how to get what i want, so i use ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ almost exclusively. it can be extended or changed by frobbing ql:*local-project-directories*
2018-03-28T12:47:49Z shrdlu68: symlink to ~/common-lisp/ works too
2018-03-28T12:48:08Z jackdaniel: there is some difference
2018-03-28T12:48:17Z shrdlu68: s/symlink to/symlink in/
2018-03-28T12:48:19Z jackdaniel: asdf doesn't look recursively in common-lisp directory
2018-03-28T12:48:27Z jackdaniel: but it does in local-projects
2018-03-28T12:48:42Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Recursively?
2018-03-28T12:48:56Z jackdaniel: ~/common-lisp/foo/src/file.asd won't be found
2018-03-28T12:49:02Z vtomole: Thanks. I'm trying to deploy a web app using apache, so my project has to be in /var/www. I don't want to have another copy in quicklisp/local-projects
2018-03-28T12:49:06Z jackdaniel: because asdf looks in ~/common-lisp/foo/*.asd
2018-03-28T12:49:26Z Xach: oh, i didn't realize that.
2018-03-28T12:49:34Z Xach: no wonder i was failing with ~/common-lisp/
2018-03-28T12:49:44Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: That doesn't seem to be true.
2018-03-28T12:49:47Z jackdaniel: while local-projects is searched like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/**/*asd (using common glob nomenclature)
2018-03-28T12:49:59Z jackdaniel: it certainly is true on my machine
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2018-03-28T12:50:55Z shrdlu68: I have a project whose asd is ~/common-lisp/next/next/next.asd
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2018-03-28T12:53:35Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe it's about symlinks? I just verified and my system could be found too
2018-03-28T12:53:41Z vtomole: How do i permanently change ql:*local-project-directories*?
2018-03-28T12:53:44Z jackdaniel: maybe I'll get back to it later
2018-03-28T12:54:15Z Xach: vtomole: put it in an init file
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2018-03-28T12:54:40Z Xach: vtomole: my web apps usually load a file to set configuration parameters, and that is an example of where it could go
2018-03-28T12:54:58Z Xach: or you could change it and save an image, where it will persist
2018-03-28T12:55:01Z Xach: there are many options
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2018-03-28T12:55:47Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: ASDF does not search local-projects recursively. You need to explicitly (ql:register-local-projects) to update the index of all ASDs.
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2018-03-28T12:56:43Z Xach: It does, under certain circumstances.
2018-03-28T12:56:56Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/01/the-quicklisp-local-projects-mechanism.html has the exhausting rundown
2018-03-28T12:56:59Z Xach: exhaustive
2018-03-28T12:57:22Z jackdaniel: I remember there is some annoying difference between the directories
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2018-03-28T12:57:28Z jackdaniel: not sure what difference now though
2018-03-28T12:57:38Z jackdaniel: (with search function that is)
2018-03-28T12:57:55Z shrdlu68: perhaps the order in which they are searched?
2018-03-28T12:58:38Z Xach: If you put somethine new in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, like a new directory with *.asd files at any number of levels, those new asd files will be found without an explicit registration, because of the timestamp of the cache vs the timestamp of the ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ directory.
2018-03-28T12:58:41Z jackdaniel: I had problem with inconsistency with mcclim asd files
2018-03-28T12:58:47Z jackdaniel: top-level was taken from toplevel directory
2018-03-28T12:58:55Z jackdaniel: and deeper definitions were taken from dists/quicklisp
2018-03-28T12:59:05Z jackdaniel: and when I have moved symlink to the other one it worked just fine
2018-03-28T12:59:12Z Xach: But if you have an existing directory ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/ and add something under that without modifying local-projects, it needs registration.
2018-03-28T12:59:21Z Xach: "something" meaning an .asd file
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2018-03-28T13:04:36Z phoe: and if you tend to modify stuff real often, write yourself a macro like (:load :asdf) that calls ql:r-a-p and then quickloads.
2018-03-28T13:04:54Z phoe: will be slower, but should work in your case.
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2018-03-28T13:05:57Z Xach: There is a new Quicklisp dist update this hour! Hooray!
2018-03-28T13:06:50Z Shinmera: :O
2018-03-28T13:07:06Z Shinmera: Finally my no-releases curse will be broken
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2018-03-28T13:16:06Z shka: wow, I will have library in quicklisp
2018-03-28T13:16:12Z Xach: which?
2018-03-28T13:16:30Z phoe: shka: cl-ds?
2018-03-28T13:16:31Z shka: documentation-utils-extensions
2018-03-28T13:16:48Z shka: phoe: co, i need to put documentation-utils-extensions, because it is missing dependency
2018-03-28T13:17:19Z shka: very humble library
2018-03-28T13:18:01Z phoe: yep, I see
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2018-03-28T13:19:48Z shka: as for cl-ds, i will want to add specilized rrb vectors (easy), finish egnat sets (element removal is missing, adding is still broken), separate unit tests to separate package at the very least
2018-03-28T13:19:55Z shka: plenty of work :/
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2018-03-28T16:08:41Z onion: question. when talking in real life, is there another way i can say 'lisp' or 'common lisp'? i am trying to avoid responses like "huh?" and "um..is that a java thing?". maybe i should say "alien technology" ?
2018-03-28T16:09:25Z Xach: In my experience people have heard of Common Lisp but they often think it is not something currently used
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2018-03-28T16:12:46Z beach: onion: How about "my favorite programming language" or "the programming language that I currently use".
2018-03-28T16:13:23Z onion: beach: those would be the questions i am answering, though =)
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2018-03-28T16:14:17Z beach: Hmm, OK.  Then how about "One of the most powerful multi-paradigm programming languages around".
2018-03-28T16:14:37Z onion: for regular college folk that can recognize java/javascript (as the same.), python, c/c++ (as the same..); my intention is not to abstract or mystify what i am using, but to avoid saying uncomfortable word in casual social setting
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2018-03-28T16:15:07Z onion: oh i like where that is going. rather than give it a "name", that would surely inspire curiosity in the listener as well
2018-03-28T16:15:42Z Xach: "my secret weapon against blub and perhaps the greatest discovery, for it is a discovery and not e develpoment, of modern computing science"
2018-03-28T16:15:52Z onion: secret military weapon made with powerful alien technology
2018-03-28T16:15:54Z Xach: "why are you walking away"
2018-03-28T16:16:08Z onion: heheh. i like "discovery and not development" =)
2018-03-28T16:17:02Z beach: onion: These days, I just avoid talking about it unless the person I am talking to is seriously interested.  Otherwise, one would just get a blank stare and that would be the end of the conversation, and perhaps future ones too.
2018-03-28T16:17:41Z bjorkintosh: they think it's obsolete because it's not a popular web 2(3?).0 language.
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2018-03-28T16:17:51Z bjorkintosh: or one used for writing apps.
2018-03-28T16:18:05Z bjorkintosh: because those are strictly the only two domains in existence for writing applications.
2018-03-28T16:18:12Z onion: yeah, thats a good point. i was at "HackerNest" last year a few times which is a local nerd meetup with free beer, some of them know emacs but most of them talk about python arduino raspi
2018-03-28T16:19:38Z onion: hmm. i could also point them to my own website entirely made in CL (since last night im reviving)
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2018-03-28T16:20:42Z defunkydrummer: (declare (arrived late))
2018-03-28T16:20:48Z defunkydrummer: hi onion, which is your website?
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2018-03-28T16:21:15Z defunkydrummer: (and which library is based it upon, i.e. ucw over hunchentoot etc etc)
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2018-03-28T16:22:44Z defunkydrummer: beach: hi RS (flavio81 here), i'd say blank stares are often much better than having to deal with people with stubborn ideas of how programming should be done.
2018-03-28T16:23:52Z beach: defunkydrummer: I just meant that, these days, it makes me tired to try to explain to people what I am doing, unless they are genuinely interested.
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2018-03-28T16:24:30Z beach: defunkydrummer: People don't want to be told that there are better things than what they have invested so much time and energy in.
2018-03-28T16:25:00Z defunkydrummer: beach: are you referring to programming/CS, or to "things to do in life" in general ?
2018-03-28T16:25:39Z beach: Well, this being #lisp, I was talking about Common Lisp.  But it very likely generalizes.
2018-03-28T16:25:55Z beach: It seems that people have a big problem with software tools though.
2018-03-28T16:26:01Z onion: defunkydrummer: hi =) its not up yet, im fixing it up after reworking the code a little. have to shop for host, probably github pages
2018-03-28T16:26:16Z onion: defunkydrummer: hunchentoot, hunchensocket, parenscript, cl-who
2018-03-28T16:26:49Z onion: yea beach , and they tend to look for things they want to hear, rather than unexpected mind bending
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2018-03-28T16:27:14Z defunkydrummer: beach: lol, of course! in fact, what I do is first detect if the guy is a javascripter. (cond (javascripter (i simply don't bother explaining anything, unless he/she is interested in learning another language.))
2018-03-28T16:28:11Z defunkydrummer: ((and java sick-of-java) (In that case this guy/girl has an understanding of OOP, thus I got the time to explain CLOS and see if he/she "gets" it. In that case this can be a gateway drug to CL.)))
2018-03-28T16:28:26Z onion: some pros are javascripters, its not a bad language at all. a lot of my good friend are doing awesome things with JS and showing me cool stuff with it. i would be using it if there wasnt lisp
2018-03-28T16:28:33Z onion: (also, parenscript=)
2018-03-28T16:28:50Z defunkydrummer: onion: i have not explained myself correctly. I meant people who can only code in JS.
2018-03-28T16:30:04Z defunkydrummer: onion: here, there are bootcamps where girls and guys receive about 6 months of education in JS and they come out as "developers"; first doing frontend stuff. Then, they discover Node.js and thus are ready to create really horrible backends, then they label themselves "full stack" and get employment. The problem is that they have a very, very narro
2018-03-28T16:30:04Z defunkydrummer: w view of how things can be done. And can get fanatical.
2018-03-28T16:30:13Z onion: defunkydrummer: ah okay. i tried to type that "unless they only know JS" but i am sipping on something to wake up this morning
2018-03-28T16:30:30Z defunkydrummer: onion: yerba mate works wonders
2018-03-28T16:30:45Z onion: ahh yeah =) that is an epidemic, i think. we get good libraries and innovations though, if from one-hit-wonders
2018-03-28T16:31:07Z defunkydrummer: onion: github pages allow hosting dynamic websites? didn't know
2018-03-28T16:31:16Z onion: heh! i had to go out into the world before i had a chance to meditate this morning. woke up late, almost missed food bank
2018-03-28T16:31:26Z onion: defunkydrummer: oops! nope, static only. hmmm
2018-03-28T16:31:26Z defunkydrummer: beach: i guess it's not easy to explain what is SICL, even to greyhairs
2018-03-28T16:31:57Z beach: defunkydrummer: Nor to most people in #lisp.
2018-03-28T16:32:27Z defunkydrummer: beach: I thought SICL was Strandh's Implementing Common Lisp
2018-03-28T16:32:33Z beach: Only yesterday, I was told that every Common Lisp system must have a core written in something else, like C or assembler.
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2018-03-28T16:32:50Z beach: defunkydrummer: That's what my wife thinks too, but it aint so.
2018-03-28T16:32:54Z onion: must have ? because we have no lisp machines ?
2018-03-28T16:33:20Z bjorkintosh: onion, i'm setting one up now. it's a bit of a PAIN to be honest!
2018-03-28T16:33:30Z defunkydrummer: bjorkintosh: ** WOW **
2018-03-28T16:33:43Z onion: bjorkintosh: github pages or lisp machines? =)
2018-03-28T16:33:45Z bjorkintosh: VLM on ubuntu.
2018-03-28T16:33:49Z beach: onion: It does not have to, because we have excellent Common Lisp implementations around.  Like SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc.
2018-03-28T16:33:58Z bjorkintosh: virtual lisp machines. the way she was meant to run.
2018-03-28T16:34:17Z onion: aha. hmm morbid
2018-03-28T16:34:18Z defunkydrummer: beach: onion: i'm seriously considering creating a Lisp implementation in webassembly, just because I believe webassembly will bring (in a few years) the total death of javascript and its ecosystem.
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2018-03-28T16:35:02Z defunkydrummer: bjorkintosh: ah, i thought it was a hardware lispm
2018-03-28T16:35:41Z onion: webassembly is a very nice and smart thing. there are CL impls in JS; but targetting webassembly would be Good. the web is the most portable/common place after all
2018-03-28T16:35:47Z beach: defunkydrummer: What would be the point of implementing it IN webassembly, as opposed to have it GENERATE webassembly?
2018-03-28T16:35:56Z onion sees webassembly processors and browser chips in future ..
2018-03-28T16:36:01Z defunkydrummer: beach: i'm not a good techincal writer :)
2018-03-28T16:36:11Z onion: same thing i think, beach
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2018-03-28T16:36:37Z onion: like how emscripten targets javascript , clang for eg could target webasm
2018-03-28T16:37:04Z onion: right now a big frigton of langs target JS, instead they will target webasm
2018-03-28T16:37:10Z defunkydrummer: beach: as I'm thinking, it would be written in a CL subset that will translate simple s-expressions to opcodes, then with macros we build upon that, writing the reader/parser/etc, until it gets self-hosted
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2018-03-28T16:37:51Z beach: defunkydrummer: But it's going to be a full Common Lisp?
2018-03-28T16:37:57Z defunkydrummer: onion emscripten uses LLVM IR; i am thinking not to use LLVM because i want my implementation to be able to compile code at runtime, thus it would have to output direct wasm binary
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2018-03-28T16:38:49Z defunkydrummer: beach: no; i'm thinking that to be aligned with web use, it would have to be geared to have as small a runtime as possible... it's really a philosophical thing i'm thinking of... But i think it is very important that the syntax resembles CL as most as possible.
2018-03-28T16:38:50Z onion: hmm lots of links , not sure which one to share: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=webassembly+common+lisp&t=ffab&ia=software
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2018-03-28T16:39:18Z onion: defunkydrummer: wait wait, 'your' implementation? sorry i did not know i was suggesting something heh =)
2018-03-28T16:39:28Z beach: defunkydrummer: Sounds good.  Keep us posted with your progress.
2018-03-28T16:39:31Z defunkydrummer: onion: I already googled this, there is "schism", a scheme compiler self-hosted written in WASM; it is extremely simple. Made by google !!
2018-03-28T16:39:50Z onion: nice. cool name.
2018-03-28T16:39:56Z defunkydrummer: onion: it was the first time I had to read through a significant size of scheme code. Scheme made me chuckle.
2018-03-28T16:40:03Z onion: JSCL is interesting also, not sure if it is current but i've seen it the other day
2018-03-28T16:40:31Z defunkydrummer: onion: there are other languages that compile to wasm, but 95% of them are crippled, only good for toy things or numeric calculations.
2018-03-28T16:40:47Z onion: how come? wasm too complicated, or not complete ?
2018-03-28T16:41:03Z defunkydrummer: onion: yes, i'm thinking about JSCL a lot and how it can be rewritten for higher performance
2018-03-28T16:41:40Z defunkydrummer: onion: no, simply that most of those "languages that compile to wasm" are watered-down, dumbified versions of the original languages. There are exceptions, like C, or Lua.
2018-03-28T16:42:08Z onion: hmm. because JS is super fast... i see an answer in one of those links saying "there is not much advantage to targeting webasm than straight javascript"
2018-03-28T16:42:20Z defunkydrummer: beach: currently i have so little time, but this weekend i am in holidays so perhaps i can do something
2018-03-28T16:42:25Z defunkydrummer: onion: for me JS is super slow
2018-03-28T16:42:41Z defunkydrummer: onion: (setf bullshit "there is not much advantage to targeting webasm than straight javascript" )
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2018-03-28T16:43:06Z onion: okay i wish you luck brother. keep us posted on progress
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2018-03-28T16:43:22Z defunkydrummer: onion: you can write faster JS than normal, if you keep a long checklist of things to take care of, like for example use only arrays of uniform type, etc etc etc ETC
2018-03-28T16:43:23Z beach: defunkydrummer: Sounds good.
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2018-03-28T16:44:15Z defunkydrummer: onion: what WASM is, is a stack machine with very simple instructions. You create binaries for this machine, and the browser will compile them ahead-of-time to native machine language
2018-03-28T16:44:31Z onion: i mean JS is severely optimized.
2018-03-28T16:45:07Z defunkydrummer: onion: yes, JS is severely optimized, compired to prior JS compilers
2018-03-28T16:45:21Z onion: "slip" has TinyCLOS implementation
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2018-03-28T16:45:48Z defunkydrummer: onion: that doesn't mean it can be as fast as WASM
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2018-03-28T16:47:03Z defunkydrummer: onion: unless they introduce a restrictive subset of JS that uses type declarations for primitive types. But, surprise, this was done before and was called "asm.js". And "asm.js" evolved, because then people said "why write in a restrictive subset of js, when we could deliver the same code as a binary, with a smaller footpring"? and then WASM was b
2018-03-28T16:47:03Z defunkydrummer: orn.
2018-03-28T16:47:41Z defunkydrummer: onion: "slip" ? i'll take a look, thanks!!
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2018-03-28T16:49:29Z defunkydrummer: onion: I see, slip is written in JS. But i will still take a look at the source, hopefully it's implemented in a different way than JSCL
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2018-03-28T16:56:41Z defunkydrummer: ... got busy looking at SLip ...
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2018-03-28T17:44:26Z borei: hi all
2018-03-28T17:44:37Z beach: Hello borei.
2018-03-28T17:45:04Z borei: the lisp games channel - can somebody remind the channel name
2018-03-28T17:45:17Z borei: stuck with opengl shaders
2018-03-28T17:45:49Z dlowe: borei: #lispgames
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2018-03-28T17:46:16Z borei: oh right, tried with '-'.
2018-03-28T17:46:18Z borei: tks
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2018-03-28T17:55:35Z borei: hmm, not sure if there is activity this time, will try here as well
2018-03-28T17:55:46Z borei: i have 2 models - 2 spheres. for each sphere i have individual shader program. initial rendering - works fine. but when im trying to rotate camera (for example) getting  segfault
2018-03-28T17:55:59Z borei: if i have only one model - everything works
2018-03-28T17:56:08Z borei:  did some blind shots trying to find out where is the problem
2018-03-28T17:56:53Z borei: draw-array works okish
2018-03-28T17:57:18Z borei: at least im not getting segfault
2018-03-28T17:57:40Z borei: picture has artifacts
2018-03-28T17:57:52Z borei: but seems like it's problem with inputdata
2018-03-28T17:58:06Z borei: im ready to provide any additional information
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2018-03-28T18:26:02Z zyaku: Anyone mind answering a quick question about best practices for macros and symbol exports?
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2018-03-28T18:26:32Z Bike: ask
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2018-03-28T18:27:11Z zyaku: I have a reader macro that does special processing on code containing symbols prefixed with the character %. Only about 10 such symbols would really be used in practice
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2018-03-28T18:29:34Z zyaku: My question is, for putting this packaging the reader macro, should I export these 10 symbols, or should I instead use SYMBOL-NAME to identify matching symbols regardless of their package
2018-03-28T18:29:37Z zyaku: ?
2018-03-28T18:30:00Z zyaku: It's the #% reader macro described on this page: https://github.com/jepugs/heresy
2018-03-28T18:31:00Z zyaku: Current behavior is to do neither, so users need to type heresy::% whenever they use a %-symbol, which is obviously not ideal for brevity
2018-03-28T18:31:58Z phoe: zyaku: export them
2018-03-28T18:32:15Z Bike: i don't understand. the symbols are what, |0| and so on?
2018-03-28T18:32:21Z phoe: SYMBOL-NAME has chances for colliding.
2018-03-28T18:32:44Z dim: hi
2018-03-28T18:33:05Z dim: is there a way to specify SSL_VERIFY_NONE when using Postmodern or maybe directly cl+ssl?
2018-03-28T18:34:09Z dim: it seems documented at https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-plus-ssl/
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2018-03-28T18:34:34Z dim: now how to control that from an application that uses a database driver that in turn uses cl+ssl only when required...
2018-03-28T18:35:12Z zyaku: Yeah, %0, %1, and so on. In theory it could go up to any integer, but in practice I'm sure it'd be sufficient to export the first 10, since functions with that many arguments are so rare
2018-03-28T18:36:19Z zyaku: I just worry about name collision problems, whereas dispatching purely on the symbol name would mean that yes, you capture symbols from any package, but only in the context of the #% reader macro which should have relatively limited scope
2018-03-28T18:36:39Z zyaku: but exporting them is the much easier solution
2018-03-28T18:37:03Z phoe: zyaku: then export them.
2018-03-28T18:37:24Z zyaku: okay, thanks for the input
2018-03-28T18:37:37Z Bike: so your reader macro calls READ recursively?
2018-03-28T18:37:48Z Bike: cos i think i'd just have it look at the next character
2018-03-28T18:37:49Z zyaku: Bike: yes, just for the next form
2018-03-28T18:38:30Z Bike: but i mean, it's not a form, only digits are allowed, if i understand rightly
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2018-03-28T18:39:05Z Bike: or wait, so you have #% as a macro but % isn't a macro?
2018-03-28T18:39:42Z zyaku: yes, the second thing. The whole form after #% is processed
2018-03-28T18:39:56Z Bike: i see, i see
2018-03-28T18:40:08Z Bike: so if someone uses heresy they have to actually USE the heresy package or it won't work
2018-03-28T18:40:19Z Bike: (if you use exported symbols i mean)
2018-03-28T18:40:34Z zyaku: yep
2018-03-28T18:40:40Z Bike: well, maybe i'm not understanding your problem because i don't see where you'd even have the opportunity to dispatch on symbol names
2018-03-28T18:41:31Z Bike: oh, you flatten and check that way. i see.
2018-03-28T18:41:56Z zyaku: Well, I have a function called "%-ARG-P" that takes a symbol and tells whether it's one of those symbols. It'd be easy enough to change that so that it only looks at the symbol name, i.e. cl-user::%1 and heresy::%
2018-03-28T18:42:39Z zyaku: the problem is that when I generate the bindings for the symbol-macrolet, I'd have to go back over my list and make sure they were all in the appropriate package, which is no problem, just a bit of a pain to actually code up
2018-03-28T18:43:33Z flip214: zyaku: the #% macro could use an alternate read-table that has % as a macro character to switch to the right package.
2018-03-28T18:43:58Z flip214: other macros (LOOP, ITERATE) just use SYMBOL-NAME to check what is requested.
2018-03-28T18:44:11Z flip214: why not just use :0, :1, :2? these would be the same everywhere, BTW.
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2018-03-28T18:44:59Z Bike: interrupting % normally might be bad, since normal symbols starting with % aren't uncommon
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2018-03-28T18:46:17Z zyaku: flip214: numbered keywords could conceivably come up in normal lisp code, or at least would be more likely to than %, as I reckon
2018-03-28T18:46:47Z flip214: zyaku: %0 might as well be used "normally".
2018-03-28T18:47:05Z zyaku: I kind of like the local % reader macro as an option, although that might prove to be even more work than just using symbol-name
2018-03-28T18:47:06Z flip214: I thought this was used in very short forms anyway, so there shouldn't be that much risk of interference.
2018-03-28T18:47:51Z zyaku: flip214: another question: can you bind keywords as macro symbols?
2018-03-28T18:48:03Z flip214: why not?
2018-03-28T18:48:06Z Bike: as symbol macros? i don't think so.
2018-03-28T18:48:11Z Bike: they're constant.
2018-03-28T18:48:19Z flip214: Bike: only the symbol-value.
2018-03-28T18:48:23Z flip214: not the symbol-function.
2018-03-28T18:48:39Z flip214: you can (defun :foo ()) and (defmacro :bar ())
2018-03-28T18:48:39Z Bike: yes, but they mentioned symbol-macrolet earlier
2018-03-28T18:49:02Z Bike: perhaps the code uses symbol-macrolet to bind %0 to the actual parameter
2018-03-28T18:49:03Z zyaku: symbol-macrolet doesn't seem to like keywords
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2018-03-28T18:49:12Z zyaku: Bike: yes, spot-on
2018-03-28T18:49:26Z Bike: so, yeah, you can't bind keywords.
2018-03-28T18:50:21Z Bike: oh, here's a thought. you could have your reader macro return a lambda expression where the parameters are %0, etc, as interned in the current package.
2018-03-28T18:50:45Z flip214: ah, sorry. not a symbol-macro, right.
2018-03-28T18:52:00Z Bike: mmm i can think of problems with this actually
2018-03-28T18:52:28Z zyaku: Bike: I thought about that, but using symbol-macrolet with gensyms prevents theoretical collisions with macros that may expand to include %-prefixed symbols
2018-03-28T18:52:57Z flip214: wasn't there a similar macro in PCL or so?
2018-03-28T18:54:00Z zyaku: flip214: wouldn't know. I haven't worked through that book yet, although I plan to (i'm currently doing LOL and On Lisp)
2018-03-28T18:54:37Z zyaku: I like the symbol macro approach because it has very clearly defined semantics
2018-03-28T18:54:43Z Bike: the "flatten" code is from LoL with the modification to break less on sbcl
2018-03-28T18:54:51Z zyaku: yep
2018-03-28T18:55:34Z zyaku: I guess in light of this conversation, I'm currently leaning toward the symbol-name based approach
2018-03-28T18:56:41Z zyaku: it'd mess up my current macro definition a bit, but seems like it has the least intrusive and simplest behavior
2018-03-28T18:57:10Z flip214: ah, there it is.
2018-03-28T18:57:11Z flip214: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/cl21.html#shorter-lambda
2018-03-28T18:57:18Z flip214: %n designates the nth argument (1-based). % is a synonym for %1.
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2018-03-28T18:58:01Z dlowe: I prefer the system used in the positional-lambda library
2018-03-28T18:58:06Z zyaku: oh wow, and here I thought I was only ripping off Rick Hickey and clojure
2018-03-28T18:58:14Z dlowe: which uses :0 :1 :2
2018-03-28T18:59:46Z Bike: yeah, no, i've seen one or two libraries doing this stuff before
2018-03-28T18:59:59Z flip214: this one is restricted to at most 5 such arguments
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2018-03-28T19:05:20Z zyaku: Thanks, everyone, for your input. I'm moving it over to a symbol-name based approach. (Looks like other people have already done what I'm trying, but my NIH syndrome demands that I march onwards. Plus mine has varargs support, although I doubt how useful that will be)
2018-03-28T19:08:23Z flip214: zyaku: straight on!
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2018-03-28T19:13:33Z flip214: oh no, why does quux-hunchentoot no longer build in QL?
2018-03-28T19:13:47Z Xach: flip214: because it depends on lisp-interface-library, which no longer builds.
2018-03-28T19:13:52Z Xach: I think. Or maybe it's cache-related.
2018-03-28T19:14:05Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-03-27/failure-report.html has build logs
2018-03-28T19:14:25Z flip214: Xach: thanks...
2018-03-28T19:14:33Z flip214: I thought that too-old lparallel might be the reason
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2018-03-28T19:15:05Z flip214: hmm, no, that's not my change ;)
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2018-03-28T19:48:08Z francogrex: hi when I try (DELETE-FILE "c:/ztemp/copy-zscripts/tcltk/lib/tcl8.6/msgs/af.msg") I get couldn't delete c:\ztemp\copy-zscripts\tcltk\lib\tcl8.6\msgs\af.msg: Access is denied.
2018-03-28T19:48:23Z francogrex: I believe because the pathname contains .
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2018-03-28T19:48:41Z francogrex: is there a way to "force" the deletion?
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2018-03-28T19:54:43Z francogrex: this is probably only windows problem (not on my linux now to try)
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2018-03-28T19:55:40Z Shinmera: can you delete it as a standard, non-privileged user?
2018-03-28T19:56:23Z pierpa: Do other operations on the file fail in the same way? Say, PROBE-FILE
2018-03-28T19:56:23Z francogrex: Shinmera: yes, actully rm "c:/ztemp/copy-zscripts/tcltk/lib/tcl8.6/msgs/af.msg" gets rid of it, no problem
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2018-03-28T19:58:29Z francogrex: no, probe file works fine.
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2018-03-28T20:00:01Z francogrex: it's because there is tcl8.6 in the pathname, somehow prevents deletion
2018-03-28T20:00:07Z francogrex: the dot
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2018-03-28T20:01:00Z francogrex: or not I don't know.
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2018-03-28T20:02:07Z francogrex: maybe this is less of a lisp question. sorry please ignore.
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2018-03-28T20:11:47Z rumbler31: if this is asdf:delete-file, I think there is a flag you have to pass
2018-03-28T20:11:53Z rumbler31: er uiop:delete-file
2018-03-28T20:12:17Z rumbler31: francogrex: check the sig
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2018-03-28T20:13:58Z rumbler31: francogrex: nm i'm thinking of uiop:delete-directory-tree
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2018-03-28T20:22:33Z asarch: Lisp for Arduino?
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2018-03-28T20:34:42Z asarch: From the book "Land of Lisp", what does #\a mean?: (equal #\a #\a)
2018-03-28T20:35:42Z drdo: asarch: The character "a"
2018-03-28T20:35:55Z Bike: clhs #\
2018-03-28T20:35:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dha.htm
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2018-03-28T20:36:18Z asarch: Thank you!
2018-03-28T20:36:23Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-03-28T20:46:27Z pierpa_: really Land of Lisp does not say what it means?
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2018-03-28T20:48:11Z dim: having to write some C code and I'm in segfaults and bus error all over again and I can't see why and... frustration.
2018-03-28T20:48:49Z dim: I needed to write it with people who'd understand the level of grumpyness that can bring on the table when you're not used to that kind of thing anymore, so here it is, sorry :/
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2018-03-28T20:53:30Z Xach: time to blog about how lisp has ruined your life!!
2018-03-28T20:53:35Z dim: ahah
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2018-03-28T21:05:15Z Shinmera: Reminds me of some low-level bugs in Harmony that I've been putting off for months
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2018-03-28T21:06:24Z dim: well in that case I think either I'm going to find another C lib to use, or just say no to using C for this project and do something more sane instead
2018-03-28T21:07:01Z dim: (https://libcork.io/0.15.0/subprocess.html is what I'm now using, and I kind of liked it a lot until hitting this strange Bus error that I can't seem to get past of)
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2018-03-28T21:28:32Z Shinmera: The ELS programme is out. https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2018/index.html#programme
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2018-03-28T21:41:33Z Xach: slashdotted
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2018-03-28T21:41:53Z Shinmera: Still loads fine for me?
2018-03-28T21:45:08Z rme: Oh good, I'm the first speaker on the first day.
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2018-03-28T21:53:54Z TMA: "bisuits" shall probably be "biscuits"
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2018-03-28T21:57:36Z bjorkintosh: with a 'th'
2018-03-28T21:59:23Z k-hos: bithcuits
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2018-03-28T23:05:51Z kristof: ha, did a linecount on sbcl's src directory (just .lisp files)
2018-03-28T23:06:07Z kristof: 413kloc
2018-03-28T23:06:28Z kristof: although if you restrict that to src/compiler, it's "just" 179kloc
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2018-03-28T23:27:37Z bjorkintosh: "just"
2018-03-28T23:28:03Z bjorkintosh: is it safe to say that software emerges after 99%?
2018-03-28T23:28:13Z bjorkintosh: *99,999?
2018-03-28T23:28:23Z bjorkintosh: before then, they're just loose scripts.
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2018-03-28T23:58:33Z obi-cons-cdrobi: does anyone know the proper way to close an SSL stream with cl+ssl? when I call `(close the-stream)` the server logs an error indicating that the SSL connection was not properly terminated
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2018-03-29T00:14:38Z matzy_: so i was reading through a thread on r/lisp about a guy choosing between learning racket and cl
2018-03-29T00:15:15Z matzy_: i've been learning racket (and elisp) for a few months now, and really love them both, but i keep hearing people say youre missing out on the interactive programming of cl
2018-03-29T00:15:45Z matzy_: what exactly does that mean?  i know it has to do with slime and the tooling around cl, but what's so different/great about it?
2018-03-29T00:16:30Z matzy_: fwiw, i do hate that i cant really debug racket in emacs and have to use dr racket to step through
2018-03-29T00:18:47Z pierpa_: when you use elisp you are not missing any interactive programming.
2018-03-29T00:19:23Z pierpa_: you are missing a better language, though
2018-03-29T00:19:25Z matzy_: i havent written anything that big in elisp yet to need anything more than a simple eval of sexeps
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2018-03-29T00:19:52Z matzy_: all my bigger programs i've written in racket
2018-03-29T00:20:54Z pierpa_: in racket you don't have a permanent state at the repl
2018-03-29T00:21:25Z pierpa_: you edit your source files, and restart from zero every time
2018-03-29T00:21:40Z matzy_: so like, you just evaluating the individual blocks, it doesnt have access to everything else in the program?
2018-03-29T00:22:27Z matzy_: my one question was how people use a repl that effectively. it's isolated and while you can test small i/o functions, you cant really test a big program with different interacting parts
2018-03-29T00:22:28Z pierpa_: in CL (and elisp) you evaluate an piece of code you want
2018-03-29T00:22:37Z Bike: you can write a file, compile and load it, test it with some calls, find it doesn't work, rewrite a function in the file, recompile and reload that particular function, and try it again.
2018-03-29T00:22:39Z pierpa_: *any
2018-03-29T00:23:04Z Bike: you don't (usually) write large functions in the repl, you just use the repl for interface stuff.
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2018-03-29T00:24:14Z matzy_: ok i see what you mean now about permanent state
2018-03-29T00:24:16Z matzy_: thats cool
2018-03-29T00:24:41Z matzy_: can you debug cl in emacs? or do you not need to with the repl?
2018-03-29T00:24:59Z Bike: well, that's what i'm describing, though you can do it without emacs if you really want
2018-03-29T00:25:04Z matzy_: so is the permanent state in the repl what everyone is talking about with how interactive programming in cl is?
2018-03-29T00:25:19Z pierpa_: probably
2018-03-29T00:25:24Z matzy_: ok
2018-03-29T00:25:51Z matzy_: so do you just use a repl with cl in emacs or does it have an actual step-through cl debugger?
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2018-03-29T00:26:20Z pierpa_: the first one
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2018-03-29T00:26:31Z Bike: SLIME is an emacs library that connects to a running lisp
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2018-03-29T00:27:15Z rme: You can't compile and run functions in Racket?  That seems incredible.  I must be misunderstanding.
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2018-03-29T00:27:16Z matzy_: ohhh, i see
2018-03-29T00:27:45Z matzy_: i can send racket functions to the repl in emacs
2018-03-29T00:27:52Z rme: e.g, like with C-c C-c in slime
2018-03-29T00:28:14Z Bike: similar, then.
2018-03-29T00:28:15Z pierpa_: rme: I don't think you can
2018-03-29T00:28:49Z pierpa_: not in a sensible way
2018-03-29T00:29:40Z pierpa_: racket functions live in modules, which modules must be compiled at once
2018-03-29T00:29:46Z matzy_: for example, i wrote a simple-ish chatbot, and i couldnt really test it in the repl cause it needed to take user input
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2018-03-29T00:30:08Z Bike: well yeah, for that kind of thing you can only test parts
2018-03-29T00:30:22Z Bike: for instance, if you have something to parse wire messages, you could pass that a string to see if it parses correctly
2018-03-29T00:30:48Z matzy_: right, but i had a bunch of different functions analyzing the string to determine a response
2018-03-29T00:31:10Z Bike: what, like it tries one function at a time?
2018-03-29T00:31:36Z matzy_: some were nested, if it was this type of question, then it had sub-queries it ran through
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2018-03-29T00:31:59Z matzy_: if it was a statement, then these functions which broke it down further to give a specific response
2018-03-29T00:32:01Z Bike: i don't think this makes what i'm describing impossible or anything
2018-03-29T00:32:15Z Bike: just a matter of breaking things into parts
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2018-03-29T00:32:42Z matzy_: so what about user input?  just test with the variable set directly?
2018-03-29T00:33:13Z Bike: fake it
2018-03-29T00:33:31Z Bike: these are basically the same concerns as with, like, unit testing
2018-03-29T00:34:15Z matzy_: ironically, something that i have also been trying to learn recently
2018-03-29T00:35:28Z matzy_: well thanks for the help
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2018-03-29T00:36:03Z matzy_: think i might give cl a try, do you guys have an opinion on it vs racket? is it a better experience for an emacs guy?
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2018-03-29T00:36:46Z pierpa_: you in the CL channel. What do you expect to be told?  :)
2018-03-29T00:36:51Z pierpa_: *you are
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2018-03-29T00:37:19Z matzy_: clearly i'm seeking the most objective opinions! ;)
2018-03-29T00:38:06Z pierpa_: if you like interactive , exploratory development, then CL is better
2018-03-29T00:38:47Z matzy_: it does sound very nice, yes!
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2018-03-29T00:39:48Z pierpa_: otoh, racket is a research language, and incorporates some newer ideas
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2018-03-29T00:40:11Z pierpa_: some of which turns out to be good and some other not so good
2018-03-29T00:40:18Z matzy_: hmm intereseting
2018-03-29T00:40:45Z matzy_: i havent learned the whole language, i didnt get to macros and only lightly touched objects, so i didnt get super deep
2018-03-29T00:41:20Z matzy_: i've heard most people think rackets macros are far superior. is cl bad for learning macros then?
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2018-03-29T00:42:17Z pierpa_: you heard some great exagerations :)
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2018-03-29T00:42:22Z Bike: i think racket has hygenic macros, which are pretty different from lisp's.
2018-03-29T00:43:05Z Bike: huh, nope, looks it has general macros too
2018-03-29T00:43:10Z Bike: but with some... thing happening here
2018-03-29T00:44:24Z matzy_: ok i'm glad to hear that
2018-03-29T00:44:40Z matzy_: so cl macros are fine for learning the concept for the first time?
2018-03-29T00:44:54Z pierpa_: yes
2018-03-29T00:45:40Z matzy_: awesome
2018-03-29T00:45:51Z Bike: https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/stx-certs.html wow, okay.
2018-03-29T00:46:42Z matzy_: thanks for all the help
2018-03-29T00:47:03Z matzy_: i'll get it setup in emacs and give it a shot. curious to see how working in it is
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2018-03-29T00:48:33Z pierpa_: ;)
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2018-03-29T00:51:03Z matzy_: i'm expecting to be like, sucked into the matrix through this repl fyi
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2018-03-29T03:45:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-29T03:48:23Z jeosol: morning beach
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2018-03-29T03:54:08Z drmeister: Hi beach - do you know Robert Smith who is speaking at ELS?   Is he from Rigetti?
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2018-03-29T03:55:49Z rme: I'm not beach, but I know him and is works for Rigetti.  He's sometimes here as stylewarning.
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2018-03-29T03:56:04Z stylewarning: drmeister: that's me
2018-03-29T03:57:12Z vtomole: stylewarning: What are you going to speak about at ELS?
2018-03-29T03:57:54Z drmeister: stylewarning: Awesome!  That's very exciting.  I was trying to connect the dots.
2018-03-29T03:58:19Z stylewarning: vtomole: computations on the Clifford group & benchmarking of quantum computers, and simulating markovian noise extensibly in a compiler/simulation framework
2018-03-29T03:59:23Z stylewarning: the talk i give will probably be a bit higher level than that; but that's what the papers are about
2018-03-29T03:59:52Z vtomole: Are they on the arxiv?
2018-03-29T04:00:02Z stylewarning: not yet, writing final drafts this week(end)
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2018-03-29T04:00:23Z drmeister: What is arxiv?
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2018-03-29T04:00:40Z erwrqwe: 你們好
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2018-03-29T04:00:49Z vtomole: https://arxiv.org/
2018-03-29T04:01:20Z vtomole: It's where research papers usually go first. Mostly sci/math related.
2018-03-29T04:01:25Z drmeister: Ah - thank you.
2018-03-29T04:01:49Z drmeister: Right - chemistry is in a parallel universe.
2018-03-29T04:02:17Z vtomole: Kinda strange cause Quantitative Biology is there.
2018-03-29T04:02:31Z erwrqwe: 這裏有華人嗎
2018-03-29T04:02:50Z Bike: biology's got biorxiv
2018-03-29T04:02:57Z Bike: dunno if chemistry has any preprint servers
2018-03-29T04:03:25Z erwrqwe: lisp越來越不行了
2018-03-29T04:03:25Z vtomole: stylewarning: Let me know when the draft is up :)
2018-03-29T04:03:39Z alandipert: stylewarning i caught your recent BA lisp talk on youtube, enjoyed it, thanks for it
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2018-03-29T04:06:11Z beach: erwrqwe: There might be Chinese people here, but this channel uses English only.
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2018-03-29T04:09:46Z stylewarning: alandipert: thanks, glad to hear it; sorry for the audio
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2018-03-29T04:47:27Z slyrus_: Bike, there's a chemrxiv, if I'm not mistaken
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2018-03-29T05:39:38Z asarch: If I do: (defun foo () `(hello from ,(caddr bar) inside the ,(cdr baz) function in Lisp)). Is this a macro (because the ` and ,()?
2018-03-29T05:40:03Z vtomole: No
2018-03-29T05:40:07Z vtomole: clhs macro
2018-03-29T05:40:08Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for macro.
2018-03-29T05:40:13Z vtomole: clhs defmacro
2018-03-29T05:40:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
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2018-03-29T05:41:33Z beach: asarch: The backquote facility is orthogonal to macros.
2018-03-29T05:41:53Z beach: asarch: It just so happens that it is often useful in macros, but not so useful elsewhere.
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2018-03-29T05:42:35Z asarch: What are they then?
2018-03-29T05:42:41Z asarch: Can they be used with defun?
2018-03-29T05:42:45Z beach: Sure.
2018-03-29T05:42:54Z asarch: What do they do?
2018-03-29T05:43:05Z asarch: ...in a defun expression?
2018-03-29T05:43:14Z beach: The same thing they do in macro bodies.
2018-03-29T05:43:22Z asarch: Thank you
2018-03-29T05:43:28Z asarch: Thank you very much guys
2018-03-29T05:43:33Z beach: (defun f (x) `(you gave ,x as an argument))
2018-03-29T05:43:40Z beach: (f 234)
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2018-03-29T05:44:50Z beach: The backquote and comma characters are "reader macros".  When the reader sees `(hello ,x), it returns something equivalent to (list 'hello x).
2018-03-29T05:45:19Z elderK: asarch: You may want to check out the HyperSpec. Or look at a CL Macro tutorial.
2018-03-29T05:45:53Z elderK: Backquote and comma are useful tools, though.
2018-03-29T05:46:06Z asarch: 1) git clone https://github.com/clojurians-org/lisp-ebook
2018-03-29T05:46:10Z elderK: For example, if you 'quote' something, it's considered data. For instance, '(a b c d). That's a list of symbols.
2018-03-29T05:46:23Z asarch: 2) Open the book "Land of Lisp"
2018-03-29T05:46:24Z elderK: But let's say you want to inject some value into that, from a variable.
2018-03-29T05:46:35Z elderK: Well, with stock quote, you can't afaik.
2018-03-29T05:46:41Z elderK: THat's where backquote comes in.
2018-03-29T05:47:00Z elderK: `(a b c d) is the same as '(a b c d)
2018-03-29T05:47:00Z elderK: But `(a b ,c d) is not.
2018-03-29T05:47:13Z elderK: The comma before the ,c means "Put the value bound to c here."
2018-03-29T05:47:18Z elderK: This is a pretty fast and loose explanation.
2018-03-29T05:47:26Z elderK: beach: How far wrong am I?
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2018-03-29T05:47:50Z beach: Looks reasonable so far.
2018-03-29T05:48:15Z elderK: There are other useful reader macros, too, such as ,@. ,@ differs from , in that if ,@ precedes the name of a variable which is bound to a list, it will directly splice that list in.
2018-03-29T05:48:56Z elderK: for instance if x is bound to '(1 2 3) and you have the following : `(a b c ,@x), the result is the list (a b c 1 2 3)
2018-03-29T05:49:08Z jackdaniel: is comma and ,@ a reader macro though?
2018-03-29T05:49:20Z elderK: That I don't know for sure :)
2018-03-29T05:49:27Z elderK: I only know how handy they are:)
2018-03-29T05:49:32Z elderK: I'd imagine they are?
2018-03-29T05:49:48Z jackdaniel: they are handy, but I think they are not reader macros
2018-03-29T05:50:31Z elderK: Ah, not reader macros.
2018-03-29T05:50:34Z elderK: You are dead right, jackdaniel
2018-03-29T05:50:39Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/02_df.htm
2018-03-29T05:50:44Z elderK: Reader macros are dispatched with #?
2018-03-29T05:50:49Z jackdaniel: I hope I'm live right though :)
2018-03-29T05:50:58Z beach: elderK: No, not necessarily.
2018-03-29T05:51:05Z jackdaniel: no, you don't have to have # for reader macro
2018-03-29T05:51:07Z beach: I think , is a reader macro.
2018-03-29T05:51:12Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/26_glo_r.htm#reader_macro
2018-03-29T05:51:25Z beach: clhs ,
2018-03-29T05:51:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dg.htm
2018-03-29T05:51:26Z elderK: Yeah, you are both right :)
2018-03-29T05:51:29Z elderK: My bad :)_
2018-03-29T05:51:37Z elderK: All it says is that you have a dispatching macro character.
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2018-03-29T05:52:10Z elderK: asarch: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/02_df.htm
2018-03-29T05:52:14Z elderK: asarch: You might find this interesting :)
2018-03-29T05:52:25Z elderK: asarch: The CLHS can be a bit tough to read at times but it's a skill you develop :D
2018-03-29T05:52:33Z jackdaniel: backquote and comma are referred as standard macro characters, hm
2018-03-29T05:52:39Z asarch: 3) Go to the page 73 of the book
2018-03-29T05:52:46Z asarch is taking notes...
2018-03-29T05:52:53Z beach: jackdaniel: That's what I said.
2018-03-29T05:53:12Z elderK: beach: You are right :)
2018-03-29T05:53:25Z beach: jackdaniel: It would return something like (unquote ...)
2018-03-29T05:53:46Z beach: jackdaniel: or (unquote-splicing ...) when followed by @.
2018-03-29T05:54:44Z jackdaniel: you are right
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2018-03-29T06:05:06Z asarch: Wow!
2018-03-29T06:05:18Z asarch: Thank you beach, elderK and jackdaniel
2018-03-29T06:05:22Z asarch: Thank you very much
2018-03-29T06:05:33Z asarch: I was stuck at this part at the chapter 8 from PCL
2018-03-29T06:05:51Z beach: Anytime.
2018-03-29T06:05:57Z asarch: I couldn't understand the correspondence the first time I read the book
2018-03-29T06:06:02Z jackdaniel: nothing to thank me for, I've just introduced some unjustified confusion :-)
2018-03-29T06:06:19Z asarch: However, the explanation from all of you... God bless you guys :-)
2018-03-29T06:06:31Z beach is an atheist.
2018-03-29T06:07:07Z shrdlu68: Cod bless you
2018-03-29T06:07:40Z jackdaniel: assuming God exists it is independent of personal beliefs, so even atheist will profit from a blessing :-)
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2018-03-29T06:10:03Z asarch: ,@ reminds me @ from Perl: my @friends = ("beach", "elderK", "jackdaniel");
2018-03-29T06:10:29Z jackdaniel: never knew I'm part of Perl standard
2018-03-29T06:10:36Z elderK: Glad to help, asarch
2018-03-29T06:10:38Z jackdaniel: I have to tell everybody, see you later \o
2018-03-29T06:10:49Z asarch: Get some rest o/
2018-03-29T06:10:58Z jackdaniel: actually it is morning, I have to get something done
2018-03-29T06:11:05Z asarch: D'oh!
2018-03-29T06:11:09Z elderK: :P I am pretty beat. But the kind of beat where you want to do stuff anyway :P
2018-03-29T06:11:10Z beach: "rest", what is that?
2018-03-29T06:11:10Z asarch: I mean, have a nice day
2018-03-29T06:11:26Z elderK: :P Just hit midsemester break :P So, yknow, I want to do ALL THE THINGS :P
2018-03-29T06:12:24Z asarch: Reposez-vous?
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2018-03-29T06:13:03Z elderK: ?
2018-03-29T06:13:27Z beach: elderK: asarch thinks that French is my native language, so he kindly translates for me.
2018-03-29T06:13:28Z asarch: Mother language of beach is French
2018-03-29T06:13:48Z beach: It is not, but it's one of the ones I speak fluently.
2018-03-29T06:14:00Z asarch: What is your mother language?
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2018-03-29T06:14:06Z elderK: For me, C
2018-03-29T06:14:07Z elderK: :P
2018-03-29T06:14:11Z beach: Swedish.  But that's off topic.
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2018-03-29T06:14:25Z asarch: Wow! That's great!
2018-03-29T06:14:29Z jackdaniel: -->#lispcafe for offtopic discussions
2018-03-29T06:14:40Z elderK: :P So joining :D
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2018-03-29T06:15:44Z elderK: Guys, what is the idiomatic way to represent say, a DFA or Finite Automata in Lisp?
2018-03-29T06:15:52Z elderK: In C likes, I usually use a table.
2018-03-29T06:16:01Z beach: Typically with TAGBODY.
2018-03-29T06:16:46Z elderK: Analogous to a switch with goto?
2018-03-29T06:17:01Z beach: No switch.  Just goto.
2018-03-29T06:17:15Z beach: Each tag corresponds to a state.
2018-03-29T06:17:17Z elderK: Interesting.
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2018-03-29T06:18:18Z beach: You can generate the TAGBODY from some description if you want (like regular expressions) but for small ones, it is perfectly fine to write it by hand.
2018-03-29T06:18:56Z stylewarning: I myself prefer tail recursive functions. I use LABELS and transition with tail calls, enforced with a nice macro wrapping RETURN-FROM.
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2018-03-29T06:19:39Z beach: stylewarning: So you rely on your implementation doing tail-call optimization?
2018-03-29T06:19:42Z elderK: I use GOTO in C for various reasons but never for state machines. Just goes to show hard engrained the "GOTO IS EVIL" thing is in the world these days.
2018-03-29T06:19:51Z beach: elderK: Here is an example: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/read-common.lisp
2018-03-29T06:19:57Z stylewarning: beach: you bet, and it makes life feel good (:
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2018-03-29T06:20:14Z beach: elderK: There are two functions in there each with a TAGBODY in it.
2018-03-29T06:20:29Z elderK: Thanks beach :)
2018-03-29T06:21:04Z beach: elderK: Unfortunately, software development is full of myths and magic beliefs, probably because most of the practitioners do not have enough training.
2018-03-29T06:21:20Z elderK: Aye.
2018-03-29T06:21:26Z elderK: :P Goto is a tool like any other.
2018-03-29T06:21:49Z elderK takes a peek at CLHS TAGBODY and linked source
2018-03-29T06:22:06Z beach: elderK: And experience doesn't help either.  It is said that in software development, people don't have 10 years experience.  They have 1 year experience 10 times.
2018-03-29T06:22:26Z beach: My observations totally confirms this.
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2018-03-29T06:26:43Z lieven: another neat trick is that closures work over tags. you can hand another function a (lambda () (go tag)) and it can funcall that to transfer control
2018-03-29T06:27:27Z shrdlu68: Nice!
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2018-03-29T06:30:26Z rme: Note, though, that tags have dynamic extent.  Once you exit the tagbody, you can't go to any of its tags.
2018-03-29T06:31:12Z lieven: yeah, they're not continuations
2018-03-29T06:31:17Z loke: rme: I guess supporting that would be one way to provide a continuations API
2018-03-29T06:31:46Z elderK: beach: Mine too, actually.
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2018-03-29T06:52:22Z elderK: beach: I remember being very disappointed in what I found when I entered the workforce.
2018-03-29T06:52:52Z elderK: I'm back studying now - not having some kind of degree begun to limit opportunity.
2018-03-29T06:53:10Z elderK: Still. I hope one day to work with people somewhere that don't constantly make me think of the daily wtf.
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2018-03-29T06:53:29Z elderK: I'm not sure why it is that way. I figured the only explanation was that the other people just didn't care enough.
2018-03-29T06:53:35Z elderK: They had degrees and stuff that I never had.
2018-03-29T06:53:55Z elderK: But they just... didn't care, didn't design. Everything was bandaided together and worked on prayer.
2018-03-29T06:54:06Z elderK: Which was horrifying considering I worked for a large financial provider.
2018-03-29T06:54:21Z elderK: (eCommerce and payment terminals and bankswitching and stuff)
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2018-03-29T06:57:49Z beach: elderK: One explanation was well put by Alan Kay.  Many universities have taken upon themselves to train their students in topics demanded by industry.  So instead of training students in topics the industry NEEDS, it trains students in topics that industry WANTS.  Coupled with the fact that most of the software industry is run by people who don't have a clue, we get total stagnation.
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2018-03-29T06:58:51Z elderK: Aye. Reminds me of a conversation I had with an old friend today.
2018-03-29T06:58:56Z elderK: Where he basically said the same thing.
2018-03-29T06:59:14Z elderK: That CS at our University has effectively become a "Code Bootcamp.
2018-03-29T06:59:21Z elderK: And really, it has. And it makes me very sad.
2018-03-29T06:59:31Z elderK: Especially when I see so few students genuinely passionate about any of it.
2018-03-29T06:59:43Z elderK: Makes me sad.
2018-03-29T06:59:45Z elderK: :(
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2018-03-29T07:00:45Z Zhivago: Universities face an existential threat as it is.
2018-03-29T07:01:08Z beach: They do.  And they have to adapt fast, or they will disappear.
2018-03-29T07:01:20Z shrdlu68: We live in an age where the tools for autodidactism are ever more accessible and powerful for the studious.
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2018-03-29T07:01:36Z Zhivago: What you're complaining about is part of that adaptation process.
2018-03-29T07:01:55Z Zhivago: But it doesn't look like it can work in the long run, so they'll have to do something else.
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2018-03-29T07:02:13Z elderK: Well, where I study, at least amongst the students, you're considered a freak if you're actually interested in the low-level.
2018-03-29T07:02:14Z beach: elderK: Maybe you should help me with the planned website to teach Common Lisp.  It would be a collection of "topic"s, where each topic contains text, video snippets, exercises, etc.  The topics would be linked in a graph that allows different kinds of navigation according to the knowledge by the student.
2018-03-29T07:02:40Z elderK: That sounds interesting, beach.
2018-03-29T07:02:42Z elderK: Really cool, actually.
2018-03-29T07:02:44Z elderK: :)
2018-03-29T07:02:46Z elderK: What could I do?
2018-03-29T07:02:48Z beach: We can start with the collection of topics and figure out the graph later.
2018-03-29T07:03:43Z beach: elderK: I know very little about the web, so I need to figure out how to host this, how to turn it into a wiki, but with filtering so that not anybody can put in anything they want.
2018-03-29T07:04:02Z beach: Then, we need to figure out the topics.  I can do that.
2018-03-29T07:04:10Z elderK: beach: Well, I have webspace.
2018-03-29T07:04:25Z beach: Then we need to record video snippets for each topic, etc.
2018-03-29T07:04:28Z elderK: beach: Nothing's really established on it other than books.
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2018-03-29T07:04:43Z elderK: But, it suppots like, unlimited DBs and all that junk.
2018-03-29T07:05:06Z beach: See, my web knowledge is so bad I don't even know what you are talking about.
2018-03-29T07:05:14Z elderK: beach: Then we're almost even :P
2018-03-29T07:05:41Z elderK: Web has never been my passion but I've done a fair amount of HTML, CSS and Javascript. Basic exposure to various frameworks for the ecommerce job in the past.
2018-03-29T07:06:02Z beach: OK, so then we need for someone else to get it started first.
2018-03-29T07:06:13Z elderK: Maybe. It depends on how fancy it needs to be :)
2018-03-29T07:06:26Z beach: Ideally, fancy could be added later.
2018-03-29T07:06:27Z elderK: As for the videos - we could host them on a YouTube channel.
2018-03-29T07:06:44Z beach: Hmm, didn't think about that.
2018-03-29T07:07:32Z beach: I am thinking that each video should be at most 5 minutes or so.
2018-03-29T07:07:51Z elderK: Seems fair.
2018-03-29T07:08:04Z beach: ... given that the target generation has the attention span of a gnat.
2018-03-29T07:08:15Z Zhivago: When I see videos I look elsewhere.
2018-03-29T07:08:28Z beach: Zhivago: You are not part of the target group.
2018-03-29T07:08:32Z Zhivago: They're just too slow to wade through.
2018-03-29T07:08:41Z beach: Zhivago: You are not part of the target group.
2018-03-29T07:08:42Z elderK: That raises the question of presentation wrt videos. Are we there live streaming something? Are we going to have some nice slides and animations taht show things, like, say, the structure of things?
2018-03-29T07:08:44Z elderK: etc.
2018-03-29T07:08:48Z elderK: Zhivago: Fair.
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2018-03-29T07:09:02Z Zhivago: I suggest including transcripts, so that you're not limiting yourself to the subliterati.
2018-03-29T07:09:02Z elderK: But beach is right: Most people don't seem to read things anymore.
2018-03-29T07:09:12Z beach: elderK: No live streaming in my opinion.
2018-03-29T07:09:36Z elderK: It's like this Computer Graphics paper I'm taking: We're doing GL. Even the teacher got stuff wrong. SO, the popular guy in the class tried to correct him, was wrong. Later, I suggested he take a peek at the 3.3 Core Spec. And his answer was "I don't read things. It just slows me down."
2018-03-29T07:09:48Z beach: elderK: Yes, animation is good.  For things like algorithms, stack evolution, etc.
2018-03-29T07:09:51Z elderK: Zhivago: That's a good idea.
2018-03-29T07:10:11Z elderK: beach: We should probably note some of this stuff down :)
2018-03-29T07:10:15Z beach: Yes, definitely duplication of information between text, drawings, videos.
2018-03-29T07:10:23Z beach: #lisp is logged.
2018-03-29T07:10:27Z elderK: Sweet.
2018-03-29T07:11:21Z elderK: If possible, we might want to generate stuff as much as possible, like images and stuff.
2018-03-29T07:11:41Z elderK: Say, if we start off with poor looking stuff. When we get better, we can tweak whatever and regenerate.
2018-03-29T07:11:56Z elderK: Not necessary but I'm sure things like ImageMagick could make that pretty easy.
2018-03-29T07:12:19Z elderK: As for the webpage, that could be done pretty easily provided we build the pages correctly.
2018-03-29T07:12:22Z elderK: Just change the CSS or whatever.
2018-03-29T07:12:37Z elderK: Or switch themes in whatever CMS we use, if any.
2018-03-29T07:12:37Z beach: I am not worried about that.  Once the structure exist, people will have opinions about presentation and they will help improve it.
2018-03-29T07:12:39Z elderK shrugs
2018-03-29T07:13:36Z elderK: Yeah, that's true.
2018-03-29T07:13:38Z elderK: :)
2018-03-29T07:13:40Z beach: The most important part, I think, is getting some topics up, where each topic is represented by some top-level page.
2018-03-29T07:13:58Z elderK: What kind of topics are you thinking?
2018-03-29T07:14:03Z beach: Then we can start filling in topics with text, videos, graphics, whatever.
2018-03-29T07:14:16Z elderK: Like, kinda... a soft entry into the world of Lisp? Incrementally more difficult and interesting things?
2018-03-29T07:14:18Z beach: elderK: I have tons of ideas.  Let me enumerate some...
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2018-03-29T07:15:13Z beach: 1. Uniform reference semantics.  The fact that that objects are referred to through references and how that influences semantics in various situations.
2018-03-29T07:15:29Z beach: 2. Argument passing.  Call by value where values are references.
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2018-03-29T07:15:44Z beach: 3. Representations of lists.
2018-03-29T07:15:53Z elderK: (You just reminded me of a question :))
2018-03-29T07:15:56Z beach: 4. Packages and how to use them.
2018-03-29T07:16:04Z beach: 5. Quicklisp.
2018-03-29T07:16:15Z beach: 6. Introduction to Emacs.
2018-03-29T07:16:22Z beach: 7. SLIME.
2018-03-29T07:16:41Z beach: 8. ASDF basics.
2018-03-29T07:16:57Z beach: 9. How to write recursive algorithms in Common Lisp.
2018-03-29T07:17:12Z beach: 10. When to use recursion and when to use iteration.
2018-03-29T07:17:21Z beach: 11. Iteration in Common Lisp.  LOOP etc.
2018-03-29T07:17:31Z beach: 12. Special variables and what they are good for.
2018-03-29T07:17:45Z beach: 13. Standard classes and how to use them for representing information.
2018-03-29T07:17:52Z beach: 14. Generic functions and methods.
2018-03-29T07:18:11Z beach: I am just writing down things as I think of them.  No particular order.
2018-03-29T07:18:31Z beach: 15. Lexical scoping.  Functions and variables.
2018-03-29T07:18:38Z elderK: Right. Well, I think we may want to have multiple ways to interact with Lisp.
2018-03-29T07:18:51Z elderK: As awesome as Emacs is, I've met very few people offline that use it.
2018-03-29T07:19:02Z elderK: These days, it's Atom and shit like that. Vim is equally rare as Emacs.
2018-03-29T07:19:12Z elderK: I saw a few days ago that there now exist SLIME plugins for Atom.
2018-03-29T07:19:18Z beach: The important aspect of a graph of topics is that it should be possible to skip topics that are not needed.
2018-03-29T07:19:23Z elderK: Yeah
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2018-03-29T07:19:55Z beach: Speaking of SLIME: 16 Conventional indentation and spacing.
2018-03-29T07:19:56Z elderK: It could be really styley, too :D
2018-03-29T07:20:02Z k-hos: 16. goto 11
2018-03-29T07:20:27Z elderK: Might be worth having a topic about the kind of data structures that are included in Lisp.
2018-03-29T07:20:34Z elderK: A lot of people think Lisp is just lists and such
2018-03-29T07:20:38Z beach: Definitely.
2018-03-29T07:20:47Z elderK: Maybe introduce them to basic use of defstruct, defclass, hash tables, etc.
2018-03-29T07:20:54Z beach: Absolutely.
2018-03-29T07:20:55Z elderK: I know I certainly made that mistake when I first started out.
2018-03-29T07:21:10Z elderK: Hell. I still can't say I know how to best use CLOS :P
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2018-03-29T07:21:22Z beach: 17. The concept of a protocol.  How to hide implementation details.  Modularity.
2018-03-29T07:21:26Z elderK: Generic Functions instead of Classes owning methods still is a weird concept for me :P
2018-03-29T07:21:37Z beach: 18. Automatic memory management.
2018-03-29T07:21:38Z elderK: Yeah, that's an important one :)
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2018-03-29T07:22:14Z beach: 19. Streams and operations on them.
2018-03-29T07:22:24Z beach: 20. The Common Lisp evaluation model.
2018-03-29T07:22:43Z beach: 21. How the reader works.
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2018-03-29T07:23:00Z beach: 22. Reader macros.  Standard ones and how and when to write your own.
2018-03-29T07:23:06Z beach: can I stop now?
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2018-03-29T07:23:35Z beach: Those are just for starters.
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2018-03-29T07:24:03Z beach: Oh, very important: 23 naming conventions and other coding conventions.
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2018-03-29T07:24:13Z beach: 24. Comments.
2018-03-29T07:24:29Z elderK: Keep it coming. I still think we should have this organized somewhere.
2018-03-29T07:24:32Z elderK: Logs are great and all.
2018-03-29T07:24:37Z elderK: :P I will inevitably forget to check them
2018-03-29T07:24:39Z elderK: :P
2018-03-29T07:24:40Z beach: 25. Documentation strings.  What is the purpose.  How they are different from comments.
2018-03-29T07:24:51Z elderK: I'm just thinking about... like... what I'd like to see in topics, if I were BRAND new.
2018-03-29T07:24:52Z shrdlu68: Was scope listed?
2018-03-29T07:24:59Z elderK: Or hell, even now. I'm not new - but I'm not proficient.
2018-03-29T07:25:05Z elderK: Yeah, scope is important
2018-03-29T07:25:07Z elderK: Lexical vs. Dynamic.
2018-03-29T07:25:23Z elderK: Hell. People ahve trouble with scope in Java
2018-03-29T07:25:25Z elderK: :|
2018-03-29T07:25:26Z beach: Yes, very important.
2018-03-29T07:26:12Z beach: 26. How multiple dispatch works.
2018-03-29T07:26:12Z elderK: I've written a note to myself to dump the logs tomorrow and order these or group them.
2018-03-29T07:26:24Z elderK: Keeping my fellow students in mind :P
2018-03-29T07:26:25Z beach: 27. Method combinations and when to use them.
2018-03-29T07:26:38Z elderK: Ooo. I wish I could learn that now :D
2018-03-29T07:26:40Z elderK: :)
2018-03-29T07:26:57Z beach: 28. Macros.
2018-03-29T07:27:22Z beach: 29. The backquote facility.
2018-03-29T07:27:28Z beach: 30. Format
2018-03-29T07:27:51Z elderK: You've probably covered this in streams... but idiomatic IO
2018-03-29T07:27:52Z shrdlu68: CL learners are always confused about producing binaries.
2018-03-29T07:27:59Z elderK: How to handle binary files and formats, etc.
2018-03-29T07:28:01Z beach: 31. Writing finite-state machines using TAGBODY. :)
2018-03-29T07:28:06Z elderK: :D
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2018-03-29T07:28:25Z elderK: shrdlu68: Good point.
2018-03-29T07:28:28Z beach: 32. How to produce os-specific executables and when to do it. :)
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2018-03-29T07:28:39Z elderK: We could make use of Roswell, too.
2018-03-29T07:28:44Z beach: 33. The concept of compiled (FASL) files.
2018-03-29T07:28:44Z shrdlu68: Some newcomers are also confused by the whole implementations things.
2018-03-29T07:29:09Z elderK: Y'know, people will probably need to have the idea of an image explained to them.
2018-03-29T07:29:15Z beach: 34. The importance of an independent standard and how the standard differs from implementations of it.
2018-03-29T07:29:16Z elderK: Since, people are so used to write->compile->run
2018-03-29T07:29:23Z elderK: Sure, people use Python. But it's kinda different in Lisp.
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2018-03-29T07:29:35Z beach: 35. The Common Lisp runtime environment and what it contains.
2018-03-29T07:29:42Z beach: 36. Environments.
2018-03-29T07:29:57Z elderK: Eventually, something about how to interface with foreign code.
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2018-03-29T07:30:07Z elderK: And when it's wise to do so rather than write it in CL
2018-03-29T07:30:17Z beach: I am not at all interested in that topic, so someone else would have to do it.
2018-03-29T07:30:22Z elderK: Well, I'm keen :(
2018-03-29T07:30:24Z elderK: *:)
2018-03-29T07:30:36Z elderK: I'd be very interested in learning how to efficienlty marshal stuff between languages.
2018-03-29T07:30:38Z shrdlu68: Embracing your implementations and using non-standard facilities.
2018-03-29T07:30:45Z elderK: Particularly with regards to asynchronous networking
2018-03-29T07:30:56Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes, good point.
2018-03-29T07:31:15Z elderK: When its wise to do so.
2018-03-29T07:31:18Z beach: 37. Gray streams.
2018-03-29T07:31:41Z beach: 38 - 50 Building GUI applications using various tools.
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2018-03-29T07:32:04Z beach: 51 - 60 Writing web applications in Common Lisp (again, not me).
2018-03-29T07:32:43Z shrdlu68: Slime and the power of the repl. It has become one of most endearing features of CL for me.
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2018-03-29T07:32:59Z beach: 61. Writing tests.  Using coverage information.
2018-03-29T07:33:27Z beach: 62. Profiling and improving performance.
2018-03-29T07:33:28Z elderK: beach: Would a topic about say, intro to a few useful libraries be worthwhile? For web types - which there are a zillion - they'll probably be interested in a quick way to say, talk JSON and access DBs.
2018-03-29T07:33:38Z elderK: How to debug CL programs
2018-03-29T07:33:51Z elderK: :P I still don't know how to do that effectively. Like, breakpoints and stuff.
2018-03-29T07:34:08Z shrdlu68: elderK: Probably because you rarely have to.
2018-03-29T07:34:18Z beach: Yes, everything is good.  It just has to be inserted into the graph of topics so that it can be skipped or (on the contrary) elaborated upon.
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2018-03-29T07:34:30Z krwq: elderK: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1))) and then put (break) in the code
2018-03-29T07:34:37Z elderK: Usually stuff my functions are as small as I can make them. So, you aren't staring at giant scrolls of stuff.
2018-03-29T07:34:53Z beach: Right.  63. Type declarations and what purpose they serve.
2018-03-29T07:34:54Z elderK: krwq: Can you set breakpoints without manually adding break?
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2018-03-29T07:35:18Z elderK: krwq: I guess that isn't that important, when you can easily recompile a single function or expression.
2018-03-29T07:35:22Z beach: elderK: Depends on your implementation.
2018-03-29T07:35:40Z elderK: beach: How about something about how thing are interned?
2018-03-29T07:35:46Z krwq: elderK: I almost never had to use breakpoints since I usually recompile on error
2018-03-29T07:35:52Z beach: elderK: "interned"?
2018-03-29T07:36:04Z rme: Have I mentioned recently that type declarations are a promise that the programmer makes to the compiler?
2018-03-29T07:36:12Z krwq: elderK: not sure if there is a nicer way - let me know if you find it
2018-03-29T07:36:17Z elderK: Well. Being aware of how what you enter into the REPL, can effect the environment. And also, how a symbol can name many things.
2018-03-29T07:36:17Z beach: krwq: You are missing out on a very important debugging tool then.  Sorry to hear that.
2018-03-29T07:36:26Z shrdlu68: I've never had to do that sort of debugging in CL. No segfaults to deal with.
2018-03-29T07:36:28Z beach: rme: Yes, a few times. :)
2018-03-29T07:36:37Z krwq: beach: how do you do it then?
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2018-03-29T07:37:12Z elderK: beach: I'm not sure how real a problem it is, but I remember on #scheme, someone was badmouthing CL because of "Not being able to define something because of previously interned stuff"
2018-03-29T07:37:15Z beach: krwq: How do you set breakpoints?
2018-03-29T07:37:19Z elderK: I never hit that myself.
2018-03-29T07:37:22Z elderK: But I've always remembered it.
2018-03-29T07:37:33Z beach: krwq: Unfortunately, you probably have to insert (break) into your code.
2018-03-29T07:37:57Z elderK: beach: Can you step from that point onwards?
2018-03-29T07:38:07Z beach: I think in SBCL you can now.
2018-03-29T07:38:12Z elderK: Cool :)
2018-03-29T07:38:36Z beach: Free Common Lisp implementation really don't have that great debugging support.
2018-03-29T07:38:48Z beach: Many the commercial ones don't either.  I don't know.
2018-03-29T07:39:13Z Shinmera: I'm not aware of any of them having out-of-process debugging, or breakpoints.
2018-03-29T07:39:40Z elderK: Well, that just highlights the importance of writing small functions that are concerned with one thing :P
2018-03-29T07:39:49Z elderK: Rather than 10k LOC monstrosities.
2018-03-29T07:39:57Z elderK: God. I've seen that too many times in the workforce: |
2018-03-29T07:40:00Z elderK shudders
2018-03-29T07:40:04Z beach: elderK: It also highlights the absolute necessity of improving the current situation.
2018-03-29T07:40:09Z elderK: Yes, it does.
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2018-03-29T07:43:59Z krwq: beach: how do you step? I've just created simple function with (break) and 2x (format ...), debugger pops up, I click `s` which apparently steps but it steps into some weird place
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2018-03-29T07:48:07Z krwq: if this is how it is supposed to work then in most of the cases I'm better with just printing stuff out or using repl directly to print results
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2018-03-29T07:51:02Z beach: krwq: It might have to do with your DEBUG settings.
2018-03-29T07:51:13Z beach: krwq: Are you using the default ones?
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2018-03-29T07:51:33Z krwq: I've put (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 2) (speed 1))) as first instruction in my sbclrc
2018-03-29T07:51:43Z beach: That should work.
2018-03-29T07:52:14Z beach: I don't remember the details of stepping in SBCL.  I know I am often surprised by what it does, like you.
2018-03-29T07:53:00Z krwq: I'm seeing exactly what this guy sees in here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27889989/stepping-in-sbcl-from-within-the-debugger
2018-03-29T07:53:05Z krwq: will try following that
2018-03-29T07:53:15Z krwq: it's late though my try tomorrow
2018-03-29T07:53:39Z krwq: I usually write fairly short functions so that is not a problem most of the time but ocassionally would be really handy
2018-03-29T07:54:04Z beach: I agree.
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2018-03-29T07:55:25Z krwq: still being able to inspect code of pretty much anything wins over most of the languages
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2018-03-29T07:56:02Z beach: If that is true, then it is very very sad.
2018-03-29T07:56:13Z Shinmera: If you have sources, you can inspect code in most languages.
2018-03-29T07:56:24Z krwq: yes, if you have sources and symbols
2018-03-29T07:56:31Z Shinmera: Right. Same in Lisp.
2018-03-29T07:56:36Z krwq: and they match then most of the time it works
2018-03-29T07:56:43Z krwq: in lisp almost everything is open source
2018-03-29T07:56:51Z beach: Oh?
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2018-03-29T07:57:04Z Shinmera: That's not a language thing though, but a cultural one.
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2018-03-29T07:57:52Z krwq: Is there even a mechanism to consume lisp code non through code? Compile to library and ffi?
2018-03-29T07:58:17Z beach: Implementation dependent.
2018-03-29T07:58:27Z Shinmera: Obfuscation is always a way.
2018-03-29T07:58:29Z krwq: i only couldn't see sources for sbcl when I wasn't building from sources
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2018-03-29T07:59:06Z krwq: the lisp culture is much better than any other lanugage I've seen
2018-03-29T07:59:49Z krwq: I haven't used so much open source before lisp
2018-03-29T07:59:58Z krwq: lisp just makes it super easy
2018-03-29T08:00:28Z Shinmera: Most libraries in other languages are also open source from what I can tell.
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2018-03-29T08:01:01Z krwq: Shinmera: I got different experience since I came from windows enviroment
2018-03-29T08:01:06Z Shinmera: Code inspection really isn't something that's unique to CL. The live environment aspect is.
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2018-03-29T08:01:55Z krwq: I like that I can just M-. into anything and change it if I need to
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2018-03-29T08:09:55Z krwq: Ok, got to go, it's 1AM here :) See you!
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2018-03-29T08:12:39Z hajovonta: hello
2018-03-29T08:13:35Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-03-29T08:58:22Z makomo: hello
2018-03-29T08:58:36Z beach: Hello makomo.
2018-03-29T08:58:47Z makomo: hi beach
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2018-03-29T08:59:57Z makomo: scymtym: can you take a look at this "problem" i'm having with esrap. it's pretty trivial but i can't get it to work. i want to parse text like "{$ hello $}" where "{$" and "$}" are tag delimiters, i.e. they mark the beginning and the end of the tag. " hello " is the text within the tag which can contain any character except for the tag end sequence
2018-03-29T09:00:12Z makomo: so i have (esrap:defrule tag-begin "{$") and (esrap:defrule tag-end "$}")
2018-03-29T09:00:20Z makomo: and for the text i have (esrap:defrule tag-text (esrap:* (and character (esrap:! tag-end)))) but i'm not sure this is correct
2018-03-29T09:00:25Z makomo: the tag itself is (esrap:defrule tag (and tag-begin tag-text tag-end))
2018-03-29T09:00:57Z makomo: trying (esrap:parse 'tag "{$ hello $}") gives me an error at (Line 1, Column 8, Position 8) saying "While parsing TAG-TEXT. Expected: anything but the string "$}""
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2018-03-29T09:04:58Z makomo: it seems like tag-text wants to continue and match more character instead of stopping and letting tag-end match "$}"?
2018-03-29T09:05:02Z makomo: characters*
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2018-03-29T09:11:55Z scymtym: makomo: try (esrap:defrule tag-text (* (not tag-end)))
2018-03-29T09:12:27Z scymtym: and maybe, depending on what you need, (esrap:defrule tag-text (* (not tag-end)) (:text t))
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2018-03-29T09:13:51Z makomo: scymtym: works! any idea why my attempt failed?
2018-03-29T09:18:04Z Shinmera: Your tag-text rule says: an arbitrary number of repetitions of: a character followed by something that isn't the end tag.
2018-03-29T09:18:07Z scymtym: (* (and character (! tag-end))) fails at the final space before the tag-end: character consumes the space but then (! tag-end) fails because there is something matching tag-end at that position. so (and ...) fails and the repetition stops, position is still at the final space. then tag-end fails at the space
2018-03-29T09:22:48Z makomo: scymtym: ah right, the whole and fails, not just the !, makes sense
2018-03-29T09:22:55Z makomo: thanks :-)
2018-03-29T09:23:35Z makomo: scymtym: also, how come symbols used in defrule like "*" and "!" are part of the esrap package but "and" and "or" are not?
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2018-03-29T09:25:19Z scymtym: makomo: esrap reuses cl symbols where possible. from your list, only ! is not in the cl package (otherwise my suggestion wouldn't have worked)
2018-03-29T09:26:02Z scymtym: makomo: also, when debugging grammars, try using (esrap:trace-rule 'tag :recursive t)
2018-03-29T09:27:14Z makomo: scymtym: ah i see. yup, i've used trace-rule, neat feature
2018-03-29T09:28:12Z makomo: scymtym: one thing that i don't understand (because i'm not that familiar with PEGs perhaps) is why, when and fails, why does the * fail too? shouldn't it stop at the first fail and just return what it managed to parse?
2018-03-29T09:28:46Z Shinmera: makomo: the * does not fail, but the $} can't parse, so the outer and fails.
2018-03-29T09:29:01Z makomo: ohh, because it stopped at the space?
2018-03-29T09:29:03Z Shinmera: yes
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2018-03-29T09:29:23Z makomo: Shinmera: makes sense, thanks
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2018-03-29T09:50:03Z onion: are non-exported symbols saved in the image? and are images part of the spec at all?
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2018-03-29T09:51:09Z Shinmera: An image is a copy of the memory, so yes.
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2018-03-29T09:51:16Z Shinmera: And no, images are not part of the spec.
2018-03-29T09:51:21Z Shinmera: memory isn't even part of the spec.
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2018-03-29T09:52:11Z shka: sometimes i wonder if it could be
2018-03-29T09:52:19Z Shinmera: If what could be
2018-03-29T09:52:28Z shka: memory
2018-03-29T09:52:39Z Shinmera: What advantage would be gained by having it be part of the spec
2018-03-29T09:52:46Z beach: Nah, you would turn Common Lisp into just another C.
2018-03-29T09:53:10Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure memory was a deliberate exclusion on part of the designers.
2018-03-29T09:53:23Z shka: Shinmera: I think you are right here
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2018-03-29T09:55:56Z onion: ah interesting=) and usually images are not even close to being cross-impl right?
2018-03-29T09:56:17Z shka: you don't even need to have images to begin with
2018-03-29T09:56:41Z shka: they are so common just because they are useful
2018-03-29T09:56:47Z onion: ok, makes sense
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2018-03-29T09:57:42Z Shinmera: onion: an image /is/ your implementation. how could it be cross anything
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2018-03-29T10:09:51Z onion: right, ok
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2018-03-29T11:17:41Z MetaYan: Does SLDB in SLIME provide some way of storing or exporting the complete error state? (With expanded backtrace)
2018-03-29T11:18:48Z MetaYan: Sort of an "error report"?
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2018-03-29T11:19:29Z Shinmera: You can use M-x sldb-end-of-backtrace to expand it, and then save it like any other emacs buffer.
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2018-03-29T11:21:51Z MetaYan: Oh man, yes, thank you. It's an editor, after all... :)
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2018-03-29T11:58:09Z shka: what people use here for tensor algebra?
2018-03-29T11:58:24Z shka: what system, that is
2018-03-29T12:00:17Z pierpa: not many tensor algebrists present, I suppose
2018-03-29T12:01:02Z flip214: hmmm... I open a file, then some threads print debug data into strings (FORMAT NIL ...) and do (BT:WITH-LOCK-HELD (*debug-output-lock*) (PRINC dbg-string *debug-stream*) (FINISH-OUTPUT *debug-stream*))
2018-03-29T12:01:10Z shka: dunno, people here do literally everything
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2018-03-29T12:01:27Z flip214: but still the output lines are mixed up and corrupted. What else do I need to do, apart from using a lock?
2018-03-29T12:01:42Z shrdlu68: flip214: Maybe flush?
2018-03-29T12:02:03Z flip214: shrdlu68: doesn't FINISH-OUTPUT do that?
2018-03-29T12:02:49Z flip214: apart from that, I wouldn't even care for that to reach stable storage; if it's in right order, I'm satisfied
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2018-03-29T12:04:52Z pierpa: Maybe you are not using the lock in some places?
2018-03-29T12:06:11Z shrdlu68: flip214: It should. Strange, maybe something's wrong with the debug strings themselves are corrupted.
2018-03-29T12:07:04Z flip214: pierpa: already grepped my sources. only 3 places use that special var - the initial assignment, and the (IF *debug-output* (print ... *debug-output*))
2018-03-29T12:07:10Z jackdaniel: flip214: use force-output
2018-03-29T12:08:19Z flip214: jackdaniel: no difference
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2018-03-29T12:08:50Z shrdlu68: finish-output is actually better because it doesn't release the lock until all the ouput is flushed.
2018-03-29T12:09:09Z jackdaniel: well, true
2018-03-29T12:10:17Z shrdlu68: flip214: Can you try to actually cause a race condition?
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2018-03-29T12:22:47Z flip214: thanks people, my fault again. thanks for being here!
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2018-03-29T12:24:25Z jackdaniel: what was the problem?
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2018-03-29T12:26:21Z flip214: completely unrelated... because /dev/null can't be removed or renamed, I had :if-does-exist :append and looked at the early log lines again and again
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2018-03-29T12:28:20Z flip214: :supersede tries to delete, :rename-and-delete doesn't work, too, :overwrite doesn't truncate... ain't there a simple "overwrite and truncate" included?
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2018-03-29T12:43:40Z pierpa: :)
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2018-03-29T12:48:33Z pierpa: BTW why do you need /dev/null? Do you know about make-broadcast-stream?
2018-03-29T12:49:35Z flip214: pierpa: hmm, yes, thanks... don't remember now whether there was a good reason for /dev/null
2018-03-29T12:49:38Z flip214: thanks for the reminder
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2018-03-29T12:49:54Z pierpa: ;)
2018-03-29T12:50:33Z flip214: but the problem stays the same - either a pipe etc. can't be used, or the contents are kept. well, perhaps I'll just have to truncate manually
2018-03-29T12:51:31Z pierpa: but why can't you use :supersedes?
2018-03-29T12:52:00Z pierpa: I missed this point
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2018-03-29T13:05:37Z pierpa: Ok, pipes...
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2018-03-29T15:01:31Z Xach: pfdietz_: Is your random form tester online somewhere?
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2018-03-29T15:06:00Z pfdietz: There's an older version in ansi-tests which is in got hub somewhere.   I've been extending it since then.
2018-03-29T15:06:20Z pfdietz: "github"
2018-03-29T15:06:58Z Xach: Do you know offhand if emarsden is using the same thing?
2018-03-29T15:07:21Z pfdietz: His was forked off at some point.
2018-03-29T15:07:28Z Xach: ok
2018-03-29T15:07:41Z pfdietz: Since then I tweaked it to do "swarm testing"
2018-03-29T15:07:54Z pfdietz: That alters the didtributio
2018-03-29T15:07:58Z Xach: Are you inclined to share the tweaks and extensions?
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2018-03-29T15:08:09Z pfdietz: Distribution of generated forms
2018-03-29T15:08:29Z pfdietz: I do intend to make it available.
2018-03-29T15:09:35Z pfdietz: It also has a tester for random type decks for various built in to test type - based optimizations.
2018-03-29T15:09:46Z pfdietz: "Decls"
2018-03-29T15:10:45Z pfdietz: Recently I have been doing mutation of code trawler from ql and elsewhere, looking for compiler internal errors.
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2018-03-29T15:30:02Z beach: Does anyone know what the RESOURCE parameter of xmpp:auth is?
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2018-03-29T15:51:56Z dlowe: yes
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2018-03-29T15:52:09Z dlowe: it's a nonce used to disambiguate different clients
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2018-03-29T16:17:10Z beach: dlowe: Thanks.
2018-03-29T16:18:05Z dlowe: typically it is user configurable so you can put something in like "desktop"
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2018-03-29T16:39:46Z beach: dlowe: I see, thanks.
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2018-03-29T16:40:00Z beach: It wasn't obvious from the "documentation".
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2018-03-29T16:40:49Z Shinmera: beach: Out of curiosity, what are you looking at XMPP for?
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2018-03-29T16:49:31Z bjorkintosh: to make a clim client of course!
2018-03-29T16:49:41Z bjorkintosh: *McClim client.
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2018-03-29T16:57:29Z jackdaniel: McJabber? :)
2018-03-29T16:58:50Z bjorkintosh: yes. McJibberJabber!
2018-03-29T16:59:37Z pjb: Jibber McJibberJabberface.
2018-03-29T16:59:50Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boaty_McBoatface
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2018-03-29T17:40:17Z k-stz: now that's funny, and its even an innocent joke
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2018-03-29T18:00:40Z beach: Shinmera: I need to use Google Talk in a more sophisticated way than the browser client I am currently using.
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2018-03-29T18:04:21Z beach: But I can tell that I won't be able to use cl-xmpp.  It has no documentation to speak of, and the examples didn't work.
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2018-03-29T18:04:51Z beach: I got some cryptic error message that I don't know what to do with nor why I got it.
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2018-03-29T18:43:48Z flip214: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/9ZkIZkDdBhM ... discussion about :supersede :overwrite etc. missing the :truncate option
2018-03-29T18:44:20Z flip214: and there's no sb-ext:truncate anymore, is there?
2018-03-29T18:44:36Z pjb: Well, when you discuss about comparing :supersede and :overwrite, I don't see the point of talking about :truncate.
2018-03-29T18:46:15Z flip214: and there's no (SETF FILE-LENGTH) ...
2018-03-29T18:47:08Z flip214: pjb: there's no value for :if-exists that will give you an empty file _and_ works with /dev/null, a pipe, a writable file in a read-only directory, and other special cases.
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2018-03-29T18:50:47Z pjb: flip214: https://hastebin.com/equyiyiqat.rb
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2018-03-29T18:52:15Z flip214: pjb: :supersede doesn't work if the file can't be renamed and deleted. Eg. /dev/null.
2018-03-29T18:52:17Z pjb: but indeed, /dev/null is different, you don't have supersede or overwrite access rights.
2018-03-29T18:52:41Z pjb: Often you have to special case devices; they're not true files anyways.
2018-03-29T18:52:57Z pjb: eg. file-length can't apply on /dev/zero
2018-03-29T18:53:10Z flip214: pjb: well, unix philosophy is to open and write to them. that's what I'd like to do.
2018-03-29T18:53:14Z pjb: and file-length should be incremented when you write on files, but it cannot when you write on /dev/null!
2018-03-29T18:53:30Z pjb: flip214: do that, with :io
2018-03-29T18:53:40Z flip214: my point is that if the user gives /dev/null (w-o-f  ( :supersede) ) won't work
2018-03-29T18:54:16Z flip214: and :io won't change that, right?
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2018-03-29T18:57:44Z pjb: https://hastebin.com/iremesonuf.lisp
2018-03-29T18:58:06Z pjb: You have to use different values for if-exists, depending on the kind of thing.
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2018-03-29T18:58:36Z pjb: you may also have surprises in /proc !
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2018-03-29T20:27:06Z Shinmera: beach: I see. I'm planning on getting back to my chat UI using Maiden soon, and since Maiden has a protocol for arbitrary chat systems, I might even add XMPP support some day. I haven't done so so far, since XMPP is a gigantic protocol that scares the hell out of me.
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2018-03-29T20:47:18Z phoe: Which ELS hotel is recommended by #lisp?
2018-03-29T20:47:47Z Xach: phoe: I didn't hear a recommendation, so I picked Fuerte Marbella.
2018-03-29T20:47:56Z Xach: it is not too far from the venue
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2018-03-29T20:48:42Z jmercouris: A strong choice that
2018-03-29T20:48:55Z jmercouris: *badumm tshhh*
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2018-03-29T20:49:24Z phoe: Xach: okay, will try to book it tomorrow.
2018-03-29T20:49:58Z Xach: ich sprechen nein deutsch
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2018-03-29T20:51:30Z hjudt: if i have one slime repl running, can i take it over from another slime-connection in another emacs, similar to gnu screen? if i disconnect, what will happen if a function is executed that moment?
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2018-03-29T20:51:58Z rme: I chose http://www.lavillamarbella.com and I hope it's OK and close to the conference venue.
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2018-03-29T20:59:03Z jmercouris: Xach: ich spreche kein deutsch - also that was spanish
2018-03-29T20:59:24Z jmercouris: fuerte means "strong"
2018-03-29T21:00:59Z Shinmera: phoe: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2018/index.html#hotels
2018-03-29T21:01:42Z Shinmera: I don't have a personal recommendation because I got an apartment deal thing.
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2018-03-29T21:17:47Z Xach: how many will fit?
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2018-03-29T21:30:12Z Shinmera: In the apartment? Only two.
2018-03-29T21:30:24Z Shinmera: And they're already booked by me and my friend.
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2018-03-29T21:31:49Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks
2018-03-29T21:31:53Z Shinmera: https://www.booking.com/hotel/es/private-bedroom-2-single-beds.en-gb.html?aid=304142;label=postbooking_confemail;sid=762822cdf78d42c6d6baa8f10842326a;dist=0&sb_price_type=total&type=total&
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2018-03-30T03:50:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-30T04:34:01Z stacksmith: Good morning.
2018-03-30T04:38:32Z beach: Hello stacksmith.
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2018-03-30T05:02:10Z borei: hi all !
2018-03-30T05:02:34Z borei: my first rendered scene !!
2018-03-30T05:02:38Z borei: https://ibb.co/i5Do5S
2018-03-30T05:02:51Z borei: using lisp and opengl only
2018-03-30T05:03:01Z borei: no 3rd party libraries
2018-03-30T05:03:07Z borei: im damn happy !
2018-03-30T05:03:40Z borei: well i'm using glfw for XWindow interaction
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2018-03-30T05:33:48Z beach: borei: Congratulations!
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2018-03-30T05:37:47Z borei: tks beach: !
2018-03-30T05:38:32Z borei: thanks to lisp comunity helping me learning language.
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2018-03-30T05:39:33Z beach: It's an investment.  We fully expect you to contribute to the community once you gain enough experience. :)
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2018-03-30T05:40:48Z borei: i don't mind, and will do once i have more or less logically completed code, right now it's handbombed in too many spots
2018-03-30T05:41:04Z beach: No rush. :)
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2018-03-30T05:41:38Z borei: i really want to see result :-)
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2018-03-30T09:26:41Z jackdaniel: uh oh, reddit 1.0 written in Lisp: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit1.0 :)
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2018-03-30T10:12:15Z puchacz: hi, in bt:condition-wait and bt:condition-notify - if a lock is a recursive lock, should wait release the lock all recursive levels, to make it free? or just release last level?
2018-03-30T10:12:35Z puchacz: I think it should release it completely, but I have an impression that at least in lispworks it releases only one level
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2018-03-30T10:13:42Z shka: puchacz: it behaves like in the pthreads
2018-03-30T10:14:43Z puchacz: shka: you mean lisp delegates it to underlying operating system pthreads?
2018-03-30T10:14:44Z shka: puchacz: check https://github.com/rmoritz/bt-semaphore
2018-03-30T10:15:12Z shka: puchacz: actually, both
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2018-03-30T10:15:27Z shka: first of, bt is for system threads
2018-03-30T10:15:37Z shka: and system threads require to use system api
2018-03-30T10:15:47Z shka: and system api happens to be posix threads
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2018-03-30T10:16:08Z shka: secondly, BT semantics are very close to those of pthreads
2018-03-30T10:16:31Z shka: so condition variable is condition variable, not a semaphore, mutex is mutex and not critical section
2018-03-30T10:17:02Z shka: puchacz: makes sense?
2018-03-30T10:17:34Z puchacz: shka: not really. my expectation that condition-wait should release recursive lock all the way up comes from java synchronized blocks. this is how it behaves in java
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2018-03-30T10:18:10Z puchacz: is semaphore then something I want?
2018-03-30T10:18:19Z shka: hmm
2018-03-30T10:18:26Z shka: i misunderstood you
2018-03-30T10:19:10Z puchacz: in java, if you have synchronized (lock) {.....} and your thread already owns the lock, you can enter this sort of block as many times as you want. and when you call lock.wait(), it releases it
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2018-03-30T10:19:43Z puchacz: synchronized (lock) { ... synchronized (lock) { .... } }
2018-03-30T10:19:45Z puchacz: recursively
2018-03-30T10:19:49Z shka: i see
2018-03-30T10:19:58Z shka: so it behaves like windows critical section
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2018-03-30T10:20:15Z shka: well, BT is more like posix
2018-03-30T10:20:28Z shka: look at this:
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2018-03-30T10:20:39Z shka: Release the recursive LOCK. The lock will only become free after as many Release operations as there have been Acquire operations. See RELEASE-LOCK for other information.
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2018-03-30T10:20:45Z puchacz: and in posix / BT it behaves like I think I discovered, right? i.e. recursive lock is freed only once when wait is called?
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2018-03-30T10:22:53Z puchacz: shka: so what's the equivalent of what I want please? it makes sense if you have 2 public API functions, but function A internally calls function B as well, so both needs to be in critical section, but if B is not called directly by "user", but by A, the lock is already owned.
2018-03-30T10:23:27Z shka: puchacz: honestly, i just don't know anymore, it seems to be so confusing
2018-03-30T10:23:44Z shka: perhaps you can check with other common lisp implementation?
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2018-03-30T10:24:05Z puchacz: shka: thanks. at least I know that java synchronization has different semantics than posix locks
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2018-03-30T10:26:02Z shka: puchacz: honestly, i never really liked recursive mutexes to begin with
2018-03-30T10:26:40Z puchacz: shka: this is the use case; A and B both critical, both callable externally and in addition to it, A internally calls B
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2018-03-30T10:27:31Z shka: why not just mutex for A and mutex for B?
2018-03-30T10:27:32Z puchacz: but I understood that I do not want recursive locks. they behave differently, they cannot be released all levels at once
2018-03-30T10:28:15Z shka: as long as B does not call A you are not getting deadlock anyway
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2018-03-30T10:28:53Z puchacz: shka: You are right, I can try. and you are reading my mind, I don't like many mutexes because if I do something that allows for calling both ways, I can get a deadlock.
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2018-03-30T10:29:31Z puchacz: single recursive mutex is fine as long as there is no waiting / notification.
2018-03-30T10:29:37Z shka: puchacz: multiple mutexes are fine, just keep your locking schema well documented and you are golden
2018-03-30T10:29:52Z puchacz: shka: yes, we both understand the problem now
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2018-03-30T10:30:05Z shka: recursive mutex has this hackish feel to it anyway
2018-03-30T10:30:22Z puchacz: if you use sort of unwind-protect, you are good
2018-03-30T10:30:37Z puchacz: or whatever higher level macro is provided, like with-recursive-lock
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2018-03-30T10:31:26Z shka: puchacz: yes, but recursive locks promote poorly scalable applications with very narrow bottlenecks
2018-03-30T10:31:36Z shka: which is not good
2018-03-30T10:31:56Z puchacz: shka: because I mutually exclude more than is actually needed?
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2018-03-30T10:32:03Z shka: yes
2018-03-30T10:32:20Z shka: and you ending up with application that can't actually make good use of threads
2018-03-30T10:32:27Z puchacz: true
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2018-03-30T14:07:05Z phoe: Reddit code is full of syntax that uses square brackets, but I cannot find the definition of that bracketed code anywhere.
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2018-03-30T14:07:36Z phoe: Stuff like https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit1.0/blob/master/sites.lisp#L33
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2018-03-30T14:10:01Z Xach: maybe a cmucl thing?
2018-03-30T14:11:53Z dlowe: no, that's a cl-sql thing
2018-03-30T14:11:57Z Xach: ah yes
2018-03-30T14:12:14Z phoe: It seems that the readtable is not triggered when I try to compile the source.
2018-03-30T14:12:50Z dlowe: heh. that's unfortunate.
2018-03-30T14:13:04Z phoe: (file-enable-sql-reader-syntax)
2018-03-30T14:13:07Z phoe: should work I hope
2018-03-30T14:13:53Z phoe: haha! worked
2018-03-30T14:14:12Z phoe: the source code seems incomplete. I can't see the DB schema definition.
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2018-03-30T14:18:38Z dlowe: the whole thing looks rather trashy. I'm afraid they hacked something together and then declared "lisp is great for prototyping but not for production" without actually trying to design something nice.
2018-03-30T14:18:46Z presiden: oh... reddit is written in lisp
2018-03-30T14:19:19Z presiden: or was
2018-03-30T14:19:23Z phoe: presiden: was
2018-03-30T14:19:27Z _death: it's just a mess of code.. too bad it was released
2018-03-30T14:19:30Z phoe: dlowe: that is my feeling
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2018-03-30T14:22:02Z phoe: someone should actually look at this code, make it work, rewrite it properly, and declare that this is how things should be written in Lisp
2018-03-30T14:22:06Z phoe: and not like they God damn did
2018-03-30T14:22:34Z phoe: it's a compile-time mess
2018-03-30T14:23:37Z Shinmera: I doubt that would be of much use other than coming off as arrogant.
2018-03-30T14:24:34Z phoe: more arrogant than writing shitty code like that and then claiming Lisp isn't good enough for production?
2018-03-30T14:24:41Z phoe: kinda doubt that
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2018-03-30T14:25:02Z Bike: did they actually say that
2018-03-30T14:25:21Z dlowe: they definitely said that
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2018-03-30T14:25:56Z Shinmera: phoe: Regardless of circumstance, it would amount to "wow you fucking suck look at me and how I do it better," which probably would just reinforce people's image of lispers being asshole snobs.
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2018-03-30T14:26:56Z loginoob: i like learning cl
2018-03-30T14:27:00Z loginoob: :)
2018-03-30T14:27:09Z phoe: ...versus image of Lisp being crap and unsuitable for writing software
2018-03-30T14:27:14Z beach: loginoob: Great!
2018-03-30T14:27:32Z _death: think it's a dead horse.. just continue working on stuff that matters ;)
2018-03-30T14:27:41Z Bike: okay but did they actually say that. is there an actual statement, or are you inferring
2018-03-30T14:27:48Z Xach: Yeah, there were 50 contemporary reddit clones in lisp the day they announced they were switching.
2018-03-30T14:27:51Z Shinmera: phoe: It's just wasted effort though since you're not improving the image.
2018-03-30T14:27:55Z Xach: Nobody cared then and I don't think it matters now.
2018-03-30T14:28:02Z dlowe: Bike: are you gonna make us do the google search ourselves or what
2018-03-30T14:28:32Z Bike: No, I'm just saying, inferring that somebody said something mean about you and responding as if that inference is certainly true is needless escalation.
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2018-03-30T14:29:59Z beach: phoe: Put yourself in their situation.  You just produced a load of crap with a language that you know isn't popular anyway.  Would you say "I made a mess because I am a bad programmer" or would you say "I failed because this language is crap"?
2018-03-30T14:30:21Z beach: phoe: So no matter what you do now, it is too late.
2018-03-30T14:31:07Z dlowe: I think it'd be fine to say "I made a mess because I was hacking stuff together and now we need to do a rewrite to solve our technical debt problem."
2018-03-30T14:31:31Z Shinmera: I don't think reddit is a very significant piece of engineering anyway. Forums softwares are as old as the www.
2018-03-30T14:31:35Z beach: dlowe: It would be fine to say that, but few people would have the courage.
2018-03-30T14:31:57Z Shinmera: dlowe: Yes but beach's way of putting it makes it sound a lot more lofty and, I imagine, has better marketing value.
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2018-03-30T14:33:01Z beach: Also, it is not the first time Lisp has been the scapegoat.  Remember the AI winter?
2018-03-30T14:33:17Z _death: I think Lisp was instrumental in helping them get a quick proof of concept.. then of course a rewrite would come, and Aaron Swartz, who wasn't a Lisper, designed a nice simple web framework in Python, so they switched.. he had to promote his way some way
2018-03-30T14:36:13Z dlowe: that seems like a likely turn of events.
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2018-03-30T14:41:45Z _death: and as Xach said, simplified reddit clones were created, sometimes to show off Lispy web frameworks (I remember the ucw one..)
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2018-03-30T14:44:35Z dlowe: yeah, except it turns out the vast majority actually doesn't care at all about what language something is written in.
2018-03-30T14:44:42Z dlowe: the hard part wasn't writing the forum software
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2018-03-30T14:45:35Z Xach: and there were many years of fringe, about-to-fail, crashing-all-the-time semi-popularity. overnight success takes a while.
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2018-03-30T14:46:20Z _death: it's grabbing a big enough userbase, mining their data and selling it off, tweaking their interests and preferences to suit paying customers' will
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2018-03-30T15:56:41Z puchacz: hi, when using sb-ext:run-program on linux, can I set priority to nice and io priority to ionice?
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2018-03-30T15:57:26Z puchacz: or maybe just run it via nice, ok
2018-03-30T15:57:33Z puchacz: I answered my own question :-)
2018-03-30T15:57:47Z puchacz: I think it will work
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2018-03-30T16:00:42Z cgay: I've never understood the attraction of using both parens and brackets in Lisp dialects. i.e., what problem is it solving?
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2018-03-30T16:01:09Z Shinmera: Some claim it helps with visual distinction of certain constructs.
2018-03-30T16:01:10Z |3b|: "people don't like parens" is probably main problem :p
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2018-03-30T16:01:40Z puchacz: cgay: it is worse for me. in javascript I have to be very careful how I am closing a statement: ); }} ;)
2018-03-30T16:01:48Z cgay: heh. "I don't like parens so Imma add this other kind of parens into the mix."
2018-03-30T16:02:23Z puchacz: I think they did the same in clojure :(
2018-03-30T16:02:45Z cgay: Seems like it forces you to visually match up your parens more, rather than trusting your indenter.
2018-03-30T16:03:23Z puchacz: I can't match it }}}}. neither can I match ))))
2018-03-30T16:03:29Z puchacz: it is a job for editor
2018-03-30T16:03:31Z cgay is in Java Hell
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2018-03-30T17:04:27Z dlowe: well, in cl-sql the brackets actually mean a different thing
2018-03-30T17:04:40Z dlowe: but I'm not a fan of it there either
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2018-03-30T17:05:10Z dlowe: In Clojure IIRC, [] makes a vector, but you can freely intermix vectors and lists in your code
2018-03-30T17:05:25Z dlowe: so the style is to alternate, I think
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2018-03-30T17:07:52Z dlowe: one interesting observation from the reddit source code is that they used defconstant for an array, which makes me believe that they were not using incremental development at all
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2018-03-30T17:08:22Z dlowe: like, it's probable they were in a edit/restart/reload web dev loop
2018-03-30T17:08:35Z Bike: isn't sbcl the only implementation that's strict about that
2018-03-30T17:08:57Z Bike: i don't know if it was in like 2005
2018-03-30T17:09:10Z dlowe: it has been since I've been using it
2018-03-30T17:09:38Z Bike: oh hey, it's actually in the changelog
2018-03-30T17:09:47Z Bike: "DEFCONSTANT now tests reassignments using EQL, not EQUAL, in order to warn about behavior which is undefined under the ANSI spec. Note: This is specified by ANSI, but it's not very popular with programmers."
2018-03-30T17:09:53Z Bike: in version 0.6.9, but i don't know when that was
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2018-03-30T17:10:41Z dlowe: nov 28 2000
2018-03-30T17:11:01Z Bike: welp.
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2018-03-30T17:11:30Z dlowe: git log sbcl_0_6_9 :)
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2018-03-30T17:14:29Z phoe: Hmm.
2018-03-30T17:14:53Z phoe: When I do USOCKET:WAIT-FOR-INPUT on multiple sockets, I get an error, usocket:bad-file-descriptor-error
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2018-03-30T17:15:33Z phoe: That's normal, because the socket was closed by the other side. But I want to recover from that and keep on waiting on input from other sockets.
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2018-03-30T17:18:14Z phoe: wait-for-input accepts a list of sockets. So it would be normal for me to call this function again with a list of sockets that are alive. But the condition that is signaled by USOCKET does not tell me anything about the offending socket.
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2018-03-30T17:21:29Z jeosol: Good morning guys.
2018-03-30T17:21:35Z phoe: hey jeosol
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2018-03-30T17:21:44Z jeosol: hey phoe
2018-03-30T17:22:04Z jeosol: busting my ass, trying to get challenge requirements, close.
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2018-03-30T17:22:35Z jeosol: i am trying to set memory requirements when I call sbcl but it seems my set up is not correct.
2018-03-30T17:23:07Z jeosol: I have this in my emacs file: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000" ...
2018-03-30T17:23:46Z dlowe: are you the redditor who is using lots of memory and crashing in the gc?
2018-03-30T17:24:43Z jeosol: dlowe: hahaha, not at all
2018-03-30T17:25:36Z jeosol: that's funny. I have not taken a look at the code. My problem is fairly large, dealing with several 3d grid array elements with ~ 400, 000 grids
2018-03-30T17:26:18Z jeosol: I am just trying to start sbcl with higher memory as the program tends to hang while loading arrays and just freezes ...,
2018-03-30T17:27:03Z dlowe: what happens when you break into the debugger? (or try)
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2018-03-30T17:30:43Z jeosol: dlowe: usually, i can't, most times. I write statements to repl to see what program is doing, it loads a bunch of arrays, and somewhere chokes before the end.
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2018-03-30T18:32:07Z phoe: In SLDB, can I run a REPL inside a frame?
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2018-03-30T18:42:36Z phoe: Okay, I got around that.
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2018-03-30T18:46:47Z phoe: Roswell users: what is the file that is evaluated on each Lisp startup? Kind of like ~/.sbclrc except for Roswell.
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2018-03-30T18:51:30Z mfiano: phoe: roswell-path/init.lisp. use reader conditionals...it's for all impls
2018-03-30T18:51:36Z phoe: mfiano: thanks.
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2018-03-30T19:12:53Z rumbler31: jeosol: ccl does not require you to specify a max heap size at boot and will resize the heap for you.  If you already know you will be using lots of heap you can set the heap size step, the default is 30mb incremebts
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2018-03-30T19:16:49Z jeosol: rumbler31: thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, I have not run/compiled my code in anything but SBCL and there may be portability issues. After I meet the deadline, I will try to do this.
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2018-03-30T19:26:05Z jeosol: How to call SBCL in SLIME but specify dynamic-space-size.
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2018-03-30T19:27:16Z Xach: jeosol: you can set arguments in your inferior-lisp-program. there are many other options.
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2018-03-30T19:29:11Z jeosol: Xach, I did something like that, but for some reason I get an error. This is what I have: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000"  ...)
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2018-03-30T19:30:33Z mfiano: phoe: You trying to get reddit working or something?
2018-03-30T19:30:50Z Xach: jeosol: what error
2018-03-30T19:32:05Z phoe: mfiano: I was.
2018-03-30T19:32:06Z equwal: Did you install from source? My SBCL is installed from the repo (binary) and it has always been living in /usr/bin/sbcl. Have you tried $ whereis sbcl ? Sorry if this is out of place, I just joined.
2018-03-30T19:32:17Z phoe: I think I got it to work, more or less, except I have no database schema.
2018-03-30T19:33:03Z mfiano: ah, that's annoying.
2018-03-30T19:33:49Z phoe: I could theoretically reverse-engineer it, but I don't care enough to do it.
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2018-03-30T19:34:48Z jeosol: equwal; thanks for your comment. Yes, install from source. That where is my SBCL is. Everything works okay, it is just that when I am running a large problem and the whole thing freezes when loading large grid data
2018-03-30T19:35:19Z mfiano: In other news, no new CL libraries from me for the forseeable future.
2018-03-30T19:35:29Z jeosol: why mfiano?
2018-03-30T19:35:46Z Xach: perfecting existing libraries?
2018-03-30T19:35:49Z jeosol: In other news, Blessed is he who gets paid to work on CL
2018-03-30T19:37:20Z jeosol: Xach: I get the following error when starting sbcl but specifying some heap size: Can't exec program: /usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2560, and Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 1
2018-03-30T19:37:24Z mfiano: I migrated to Clojure a month or 2 ago...been sort of keeping quiet about it :/ I'll do my best to maintain the CL libraries I have though.
2018-03-30T19:37:37Z jeosol: what is it like mfiano?
2018-03-30T19:37:48Z mfiano: Wrong channel to discuss that really
2018-03-30T19:37:48Z jeosol: comparison?
2018-03-30T19:37:54Z jeosol: Ok doki
2018-03-30T19:38:05Z equwal: Is there are clojure channel?
2018-03-30T19:38:11Z Xach: jeosol: can you run this at a command line? /usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2560
2018-03-30T19:38:26Z jeosol: When I started, I was encouraged to consider it, but my application was heavy on using CLOS, so I stayed with CL
2018-03-30T19:38:47Z Xach: equwal: I don't know, but if there was, I bet it would be #clojure
2018-03-30T19:38:52Z equwal: just joined lol
2018-03-30T19:38:57Z jeosol: yeah, Xach, that works on the command line, but how does one know if that parameter was specified
2018-03-30T19:39:24Z jeosol: I intentionall messed up the name of the dynamic-space-size and SBCL still started ok
2018-03-30T19:39:34Z jeosol: i.e., on the shell
2018-03-30T19:40:41Z Xach: there is a function call that returns the dynamic space size in octets
2018-03-30T19:40:49Z Xach: I don't remember the name but apropos should help find it.
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2018-03-30T19:43:16Z equwal: How many CLOS objects do you think you are making with that program?
2018-03-30T19:43:39Z bjorkintosh: at least 1!
2018-03-30T19:43:48Z bjorkintosh: sorry. couldn't resist.
2018-03-30T19:45:11Z jeosol: I assume that was for me equwal:
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2018-03-30T19:46:10Z jeosol: Xach: I did some experiment, if the --dynamic-space-size name is misspelled as I did, SBCL ignores the argument. If it is specified correctly it is used.
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2018-03-30T19:47:04Z jeosol: I found the following hack on this site: (see penultimate message, towards bottom) https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/22503919/
2018-03-30T19:47:40Z jeosol: I use that to retrieve the size. So far, this is on the shell, so I need to make it work on the with slime.
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2018-03-30T19:48:25Z jeosol: equwal: I am not sure what you mean by how many CLOS objects, as in number, or how dependent is the same on CLOS?
2018-03-30T19:48:36Z pankracy: hi
2018-03-30T19:48:38Z pankracy: https://ideone.com/0SCElw
2018-03-30T19:49:23Z pankracy: I've got this piece of code, I'm running external program with uiop:run-program which takes more than 10 seconds but it put things to the output
2018-03-30T19:49:42Z pankracy: and I'm trying to consume that stream while program is running
2018-03-30T19:50:00Z pankracy: and that piece of code return empty string after 5 seconds of working
2018-03-30T19:50:18Z pankracy: does anyone has any thoughts how to fix this?
2018-03-30T19:53:54Z jeosol: pankracy: I see some errors in the debugger output, have you fixed those?
2018-03-30T19:54:13Z pankracy: what errors?
2018-03-30T19:54:56Z jeosol: compilation errors?
2018-03-30T19:54:59Z cgay: pankracy: Package BT does not exist.
2018-03-30T19:55:29Z jeosol: sorry, not sure what you wanted us to look at.
2018-03-30T19:55:31Z pankracy: yep, this is only sample, you need to load bt and uiop to run this code
2018-03-30T19:56:06Z cgay: ah, so the compiler errors you posted should be ignored.
2018-03-30T19:56:14Z phoe: t
2018-03-30T19:56:20Z jeosol: I guess so
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2018-03-30T20:02:19Z sjl: pankracy: I don't think UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM can do async, you'll need to use the implementation-specific things it calls or something like https://github.com/sellout/external-program
2018-03-30T20:02:35Z sjl: the docstring for my version of uiop:run-program says:
2018-03-30T20:02:36Z sjl: > Run program specified by COMMAND, ...; _synchronously_ process its output as specified and return the processing results when the program and its output processing are complete.
2018-03-30T20:03:51Z pankracy: this word probably relates only to that that this is blocking function
2018-03-30T20:04:00Z pankracy: there is also launch-program which is async
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2018-03-30T20:08:52Z phoe: ^
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2018-03-30T20:11:18Z sjl: If there's some other uiop program-runner that would be an option too
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2018-03-30T20:20:35Z jackdaniel: uiop's run-program and launch-program have an additional abstraction baggage over implementation-specific run-program – external-program is more minimal with this regard (simply maps into underlying interface)
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2018-03-30T20:46:48Z rpg: pankracy: you need to use LAUNCH-PROGRAM from UIOP for asynchronous interaction.
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2018-03-30T21:52:03Z pankracy: rpg: and how I would do that besides not using bt:make-thread if this doesn't give me anything into the stream
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2018-03-30T21:52:36Z rpg: pankracy: I really don't understand that question (including the question about bt:make-thread)?
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2018-03-30T21:53:16Z rpg: I'd start by reading the launch-program docstring: (documentation 'uiop:launch-program 'function)
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2018-03-30T21:54:15Z pankracy: rpg: when I run a program and this program loads stuff into the stream, I want to have listener on the stream which performs actions regarding output it gets
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2018-03-30T21:55:53Z pankracy: rpg: in this example I've got python program that puts one number every second
2018-03-30T21:56:17Z pankracy: and I want to write a listener which consumes every line of that stream when it's pushed by this program
2018-03-30T21:56:30Z pankracy: not the whole output, but line by line
2018-03-30T21:56:53Z rpg: according to the docstring: "If it[the OUTPUT keyword argument]'s :STREAM, a new stream will be made available that can be accessed via PROCESS-INFO-OUTPUT and read from."
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2018-03-30T21:57:57Z rpg: hm.  Looks like PROCESS-INFO-OUTPUT is not exported from UIOP, which it probably should be.
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2018-03-30T21:59:12Z sjl: rpg: it seems to be in my current sbcl...
2018-03-30T21:59:16Z rpg: OK, that's just a stream. So can you not have a thread that listens on that stream?
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2018-03-30T22:00:08Z rpg: Actually, I think launch program is spawned off as a separate process, so the current process should be able to listen on that stream.
2018-03-30T22:00:27Z rpg: I'm not very clear on what the problem is.
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2018-03-30T22:00:51Z sjl: pankracy: you're going to want to use :output :stream like rpg said, then grab the stream with process-info-output, and call READ-LINE on it in a loop.  whether that loop is in your current thread or a separate thread is up to you.
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2018-03-30T22:02:15Z rpg: If you are worried about it hanging, you will need to manage a timeout.
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2018-03-30T22:12:04Z pankracy: (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"for i in range(10): print(i); __import__('time').sleep(1)\"" :output :stream))
2018-03-30T22:12:10Z pankracy: rpg: this works fine
2018-03-30T22:12:11Z pankracy: thx
2018-03-30T22:12:40Z pankracy: and doing read-line on that stream
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2018-03-30T22:15:46Z rpg: Great!  Glad to hear it.
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2018-03-30T22:20:51Z pankracy: unfortunately, I said it too early xD
2018-03-30T22:20:55Z pankracy: (let ((s (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"for i in range(10): print(i); __import__('time').sleep(1)\"" :output :stream)))) (print (read-line s)) (print (read-line s)) (print (read-line s)))
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2018-03-30T22:21:36Z pankracy: if I do 3 times (print (read-line s)) in the body section, these all statements will be executed at the same time
2018-03-30T22:21:48Z pankracy: which is then the process is ended
2018-03-30T22:21:59Z pankracy: *which is when
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2018-03-30T22:22:46Z pankracy: so this is exactly the same problem I had with uiop:run-program
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2018-03-30T22:23:22Z Shinmera: Are you sure python is flushing the output?
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2018-03-30T22:24:59Z pankracy: yes, if you run this in your shell you will have program that run 10 seconds, every second it shows you new line
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2018-03-30T22:27:51Z rpg: Is there any chance that what happens here could "look like" a non-interactive output to Python so that it buffers?  I.e., python might open the terminal as a line-buffered stream, but the stream it gets from run-program and launch-program might be block-buffered or something crazy.
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2018-03-30T22:28:57Z rpg: pankracy: this might be helpful: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/230751/how-to-flush-output-of-python-print
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2018-03-30T22:29:26Z Shinmera: It seems so. Even with simple-inferiors, which I know works right, it does not work as expected with python
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2018-03-30T22:29:32Z Shinmera: (but does work fine if you do the same thing in bash)
2018-03-30T22:29:51Z Shinmera: as in https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRVME5BPT0=
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2018-03-30T22:34:31Z rpg: pankracy: I think you can just pass python the argument that tells it not to buffer its output, and things should work.
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2018-03-30T22:37:59Z pankracy: (let ((s (uiop:process-info-output (uiop:launch-program "python -c \"import sys;import time; [(sys.stdout.write(\\\"%d\\\\n\\\" % i), sys.stdout.flush(), time.sleep(1)) for i in xrange(10)]\"" :output :stream)))) (print (read-line s))(print (read-line s))(print (read-line s)))
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2018-03-30T22:38:08Z pankracy: I've got this code, it works better
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2018-03-30T22:41:39Z rpg: pankracy: Does your original code also work if you add -u to the python command?
2018-03-30T22:45:33Z pankracy: -u?
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2018-03-30T22:46:24Z pankracy: when I do run-program and the new python line with flushing, the old code also is not working, maybe some problems with passing stream into the run-program with :stream keyword
2018-03-30T22:46:35Z rpg: pankracy: Seems to be for "use unbuffered i/o" (although it's stupidly also the same as the standard old-school for "usage")
2018-03-30T22:47:16Z rpg: pankracy: I think run-program is intended to run to completion and *then* present the program's output.
2018-03-30T22:47:30Z Shinmera: run-program is synchronous.
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2018-03-30T22:48:51Z pankracy: rpg: it works better with -u, the async one
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2018-03-30T23:03:51Z matzy_: hey, this is a total noob question, but i just installed sbcl and quicklisp, including doing (ql:add-to-init-file).  then i realized i dont want the quicklisp folder in my $HOME (I want it in a sub directory of home)
2018-03-30T23:04:21Z matzy_: should I: 1. uninstall and reinstall, specifying the correct dir 2. move and change config files somewhere (i assume?)
2018-03-30T23:05:20Z Bike: i think you can just move it yeah
2018-03-30T23:05:41Z Bike: and then edit .sbclrc
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2018-03-30T23:05:47Z Shinmera: Quicklisp is relocatable
2018-03-30T23:05:59Z Shinmera: so just move and adapt the path in the init file.
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2018-03-30T23:06:32Z matzy_: ok thanks
2018-03-30T23:06:50Z matzy_: Shinmera: is the init file you're speaking of .sbclrc?
2018-03-30T23:06:56Z Shinmera: yes
2018-03-30T23:07:01Z matzy_: ok great
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2018-03-30T23:07:33Z makomo_: are symlinks within local-projects supported?
2018-03-30T23:07:40Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-03-30T23:07:45Z makomo_: because sometimes quicklisp can't find the system even though it's there
2018-03-30T23:07:53Z makomo_: i.e. symlinked correctly
2018-03-30T23:07:57Z Shinmera: Might have to force a scan with (ql:register-local-projects)
2018-03-30T23:07:59Z rpg: makomo_: what CL are you using?
2018-03-30T23:08:04Z makomo_: sbcl
2018-03-30T23:08:17Z makomo_: Shinmera: that's what i would usually do, but even then it wouldn't work sometimes
2018-03-30T23:08:27Z Shinmera: Never observed that myself.
2018-03-30T23:08:30Z makomo_: it's been a while since that happened, but it did happen i'm pretty sure
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2018-03-30T23:12:53Z MetaYan: It's a bit strange that SBCL follows symlinks in local-projects, while CCL doesn't.
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2018-03-30T23:13:20Z rpg: MetaYan: There's no standardization about how to handle symbolic links in CL at all, much less symlinks to directories.
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2018-03-30T23:13:48Z rpg: oh, yes, there's not even a notion of "directory" in CL! (there's a directory *function*, but not a directory as a thing)
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2018-03-30T23:15:24Z rme: I was pretty sure that CCL did the right thing with symlinks in local-projects;  I seem to remember a bug fix related to that, but maybe I am wrong.
2018-03-30T23:15:38Z rpg: OK, I have been fighting software all day. I'm going off to get a glass of wine!
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2018-03-30T23:16:32Z rpg: rme: My linux box has symlinks in its ~/common-lisp/ folder, and CCL doesn't follow them, so the libraries are visible to ACL and SBCL but not CCL (through ASDF).
2018-03-30T23:17:35Z MetaYan: I always end up with an empty system-index.txt if I happen to (ql:register-local-projects) in CCL.
2018-03-30T23:18:02Z MetaYan: Both on Linux and Darwin.
2018-03-30T23:18:46Z MetaYan: (because all my local-projects are symlinked)
2018-03-30T23:19:34Z rme: Well, I guess I'm wrong.
2018-03-30T23:20:21Z rme: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/891 is what I was thinking of.
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2018-03-30T23:27:20Z MetaYan: Changing nil to t at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/quicklisp/impl-util.lisp#L214 solves it.
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2018-03-30T23:28:53Z MetaYan: But not sure if there are any side effects.
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2018-03-31T05:46:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-03-31T07:11:31Z asarch: Is there any way to avoid Slime to split the Emacs Window?
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2018-03-31T07:28:16Z otwieracz: That's primary EMACS feature - always opening buffer in wrong window.
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2018-03-31T07:28:41Z asarch: In Emacs, how can you repeat quickly the last command?
2018-03-31T07:28:50Z asarch: (Something a la !! in Bash)
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2018-03-31T07:31:51Z SaganMan: Morning peeps
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2018-03-31T08:20:02Z Shinmera: For those wondering, you can write ,resend-form in the REPL to re-evaluate the last form.
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2018-03-31T08:36:50Z pjb: otwieracz: it can be changed.  For example, you could use the camera to detect the direction the eyes point to, and to use that window to display the buffer.
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2018-03-31T09:23:59Z puchacz: hi, can I muffle it somehow in SBCL please? "The fifth argument (in keyword position) is not a constant, weakening keyword argument checking."
2018-03-31T09:24:13Z puchacz: (declare (ignore something))
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2018-03-31T09:36:29Z puchacz: ok, got it: #+sbcl(declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note))
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2018-03-31T10:51:16Z jackdaniel: any recommendations for an rss/atom parser library?
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2018-03-31T10:52:12Z Shinmera: It's not really geared for rss/atom, but with lQuery you can parse and extract information pretty quick.
2018-03-31T10:52:58Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks
2018-03-31T10:53:37Z jackdaniel: I'm looking for something more off-the-shelf to build clim interface for it as an example
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2018-03-31T10:54:17Z jackdaniel: my candidates are cl-rss and cl-feedparser (I've also found cl-feedparse - not available on QL)
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2018-03-31T11:31:18Z Shinmera: I've only ever been on the producing side of RSS, I'm afraid.
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2018-03-31T12:32:10Z ebrasca: Hi can someone explain me what with-* functions are supposed to do in common lisp?
2018-03-31T12:32:37Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: with- are usually macros
2018-03-31T12:32:52Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I have learned what is do-* for recently.
2018-03-31T12:32:55Z Shinmera: with-* are usually macros that handle setup and cleanup of resources.
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2018-03-31T12:33:17Z jackdaniel: they are used when you want to introduce some context and some actions to perform after "body" is executed
2018-03-31T12:34:00Z ebrasca: Like with-file do someting in all parts of some file
2018-03-31T12:34:05Z ebrasca: ?
2018-03-31T12:34:06Z jackdaniel: for instance with-open-file is used to: open the file and bind its stream to a symbol (context), execute body, close the stream (even if errors happen)
2018-03-31T12:34:20Z jackdaniel: the last part is a cleanup
2018-03-31T12:34:49Z ebrasca: In my situation can it be write to disk?
2018-03-31T12:34:51Z jackdaniel: yes, with-file may be imagine like this: grab a file-specific lock, execute body (some operations), release the lock
2018-03-31T12:35:15Z jackdaniel: what you do with your macro is limited mostly by your imagination
2018-03-31T12:35:41Z jackdaniel: sure, cleanup can be write to disk
2018-03-31T12:36:00Z ebrasca: But it is good to give good names for functions.
2018-03-31T12:36:12Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-03-31T12:36:21Z jackdaniel: with-open-file is a good name for a macro
2018-03-31T12:36:35Z jackdaniel: with-locked-file could be another name which indicates some locking
2018-03-31T12:36:59Z jackdaniel: with-transaction may be used to ensure that operation is done atomically (either it happens as a whole or not at all)
2018-03-31T12:37:22Z ebrasca: Do you like to read my macro with-file?
2018-03-31T12:40:00Z ebrasca: http://termbin.com/hjto
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2018-03-31T12:41:06Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I think I am geting some general idea about with-* .
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2018-03-31T13:04:33Z pjb: (let (l) (do-external-symbols (s "CL" l) (when (prefixp "WITH-" (symbol-name s)) (push s l)))) --> (with-open-stream with-compilation-unit with-input-from-string with-accessors with-package-iterator with-slots with-condition-restarts with-standard-io-syntax with-simple-restart with-open-file with-output-to-string with-hash-table-iterator)
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2018-03-31T13:05:33Z pjb: ebrasca: you may use macroexpand-1 on examples to see what macros expand to.
2018-03-31T13:06:02Z pjb: ebrasca: sometimes, the cleanup is implicit, such as when with-* is  only used to establish local bindings with LET or similar.
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2018-03-31T13:07:49Z ebrasca: Maybe it is better to call it do-file instead of with-file.
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2018-03-31T13:15:20Z pjb: ebrasca: it depends.
2018-03-31T13:15:33Z pjb: ebrasca: often, with- macros can expand to a call to a function.
2018-03-31T13:15:54Z pjb: Notice that macros are also named dosomething, so we would avoid to call a function with that prefix.
2018-03-31T13:16:39Z pjb: the pattern would be a with-something expanding to a call of call-with-something function (or some other function, I often use function called generate-something to generate the code returned by macros).
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2018-03-31T13:17:12Z pjb: ebrasca: now the depends part, comes from the things you may want to do at compilation time.
2018-03-31T13:17:35Z pjb: ebrasca: for example, when using such functions, you will have often to wrap bodies in lambda expressions.
2018-03-31T13:18:02Z pjb: This kind of boilerplate is advantageously generated by the macro instead of typed over and over.
2018-03-31T13:18:23Z pjb: Of course, it's also good to have the function in case you need to call it with a function instead of a lambda-expression.
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2018-03-31T13:20:48Z pjb: ebrasca: eg. sometimes the macro can determine at macro-expansion times the alternative to choose to generate.  A function would have to test at run-time.  It would be less efficient.
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2018-03-31T13:24:41Z ebrasca need to learn more about macro-expansion compared to run-time.
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2018-03-31T14:44:58Z makomo_: what is the convention with "%" as a name prefix?
2018-03-31T14:45:07Z makomo_: internal implementation stuff?
2018-03-31T14:45:58Z Shinmera: Things that shouldn't be touched unless you know exactly what you're doing, as they probably have no use / are dangerous outside of very specific contexts.
2018-03-31T14:46:11Z Shinmera: So essentially very internal/private things.
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2018-03-31T14:58:03Z makomo_: mhm, ok
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2018-03-31T15:02:28Z pjb: makomo_: for example, a normal function would check its parameter, while a %function would not and possibly it would crash like any C function if bad parameters are passed.
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2018-03-31T15:59:37Z jjkola: hi
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2018-03-31T16:13:20Z ebrasca: jjkola: hi
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2018-03-31T16:42:57Z obi-cons-cdrobi: @makomo_: I've seen people use % as a prefix to name symbol macros. Is that widely used?
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2018-03-31T16:44:14Z beach: It can be used for symbol macros, macros, functions, slots, etc.  The key is that the % signals "danger", "internal stuff", "be careful" etc.
2018-03-31T16:44:44Z obi-cons-cdrobi: gotcha
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2018-03-31T17:07:24Z pfdietz_: I tend to use % for flet/labels function names.
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2018-03-31T17:18:50Z shka_: i think i found use case for explicit compile-call
2018-03-31T17:19:23Z shka_: i wrote simple tape automatic differentiation tool
2018-03-31T17:20:00Z shka_: i think that it can run fast as hell by generating gradient calculating lambda
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2018-03-31T17:21:42Z shka_: this way you can calculate gradient many times per second
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2018-03-31T17:24:20Z pjb: pfdietz_: it's useless to use % for local function, since they cannot be used outside of the lexical scope (unless you explicitely return them).
2018-03-31T17:24:25Z pjb: return or pass them.
2018-03-31T17:24:42Z pjb: shka_: sounds like it, indeed.
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2018-03-31T17:28:53Z shka_: first version seems to work around 4 to 5 times faster
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2018-03-31T17:30:12Z pfdietz_: I just do it as a hint to the reader.
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