2018-01-01T00:00:48Z Shinmera: Plus doing the same as mapcar in loop is about the most bog standard thing ever, so your complaint really doesn't hold water.
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2018-01-01T00:01:58Z phoe: TMA: actually IN/ON/ACROSS is pretty sane in LOOP
2018-01-01T00:02:26Z phoe: in (1 2 3) gives you 1, 2, 3; on (1 2 3) gives you (1 2 3), (2 3), (3); across #(1 2 3) gives you 1, 2, 3
2018-01-01T00:03:11Z TMA: I find forgetting most of the LOOP syntax all the time. It is too much like English, yet it is different becasuse formalized. It just makes me afraid that I make some mistake.
2018-01-01T00:03:29Z |3b|: anything but IN wouldn't have worked with MAPCAR anyway :p
2018-01-01T00:03:35Z Shinmera: Then you just aren't using loop enough. Using it less won't help that.
2018-01-01T00:03:43Z |3b|: do i want mapcon, mapl, mapc, etc?
2018-01-01T00:03:48Z krwq: TMA: you can always use being the elements of
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2018-01-01T00:07:13Z phoe: krwq: wait, seriously?
2018-01-01T00:07:29Z phoe: ...
2018-01-01T00:07:33Z phoe: holy flipping spheres
2018-01-01T00:08:04Z krwq: phoe: not sure if that was sarcasm or for real :P
2018-01-01T00:08:10Z phoe: I just learned a new things
2018-01-01T00:08:13Z phoe: a new thing*
2018-01-01T00:09:13Z |3b| doesn't see it in the spec
2018-01-01T00:09:14Z krwq: TMA: loop has really flexible syntax - instead of thinking "I want to loop over elements" you should think what you want to do
2018-01-01T00:10:07Z krwq: |3b|: for-as-hash
2018-01-01T00:10:19Z krwq: it might be a bug though :P
2018-01-01T00:10:49Z krwq: no actually that's wrong
2018-01-01T00:10:52Z krwq: might not be documented
2018-01-01T00:10:56Z |3b|: yeah, no elements-of in the grammar for that :)
2018-01-01T00:11:01Z |3b|: probably implementation extension
2018-01-01T00:11:42Z krwq: I think I might have read it in PCL or somewhere but I've used "being the elements of" for a while after I found that it is actually less error prone when you got separate sytntax for list/vector
2018-01-01T00:11:57Z Shinmera: It's not in PCL
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2018-01-01T00:12:48Z krwq: not clue where I read it then but this works on sbcl: (loop for x being the elements of #(1 2 3 4) do (format t "~a~%" x))
2018-01-01T00:14:40Z krwq: TMA in general this is a good case for loops:
2018-01-01T00:15:24Z krwq: (loop for i from 0 for x in '(a b c d) do ...)
2018-01-01T00:15:34Z |3b|: if it works on sbcl, it might work on most others since it uses a popular LOOP implementation... good chance clisp wouldn't like it though
2018-01-01T00:15:43Z krwq: once you learn how to use multiple iterators at once that is super convenient
2018-01-01T00:16:00Z aeth: |3b|: The easy solution is to support every implementation except clisp
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2018-01-01T00:16:29Z aeth: I make a lot of clisp unfriendly assumptions like a fixnum of at least 60 bits and the existence of specialized single-float and double-float arrays.
2018-01-01T00:17:04Z aeth: clisp really needs an update to catch up
2018-01-01T00:17:10Z |3b|: also risks breaking on future implementations
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2018-01-01T00:19:35Z Shinmera: Or current platforms
2018-01-01T00:20:06Z krwq: either way I didn't realize this was undocumented feature
2018-01-01T00:20:29Z aeth: Futuer implementors have a difficult job because there are a lot of de facto standards.
2018-01-01T00:21:22Z aeth: I think most people just test major implementations (perhaps with something like roswell) for breakage, rather than testing against the standard.
2018-01-01T00:21:30Z |3b| wonders how hard it would be to add a loop-style interface to ITERATE, would be nice to have the improvements like more clauses and portable extensibility without having to put up with the annoying non-lispy syntax :)
2018-01-01T00:22:19Z |3b|: (ideally sharing existing extensions with minimal extra work)
2018-01-01T00:22:40Z oleo: loop is more like plain english
2018-01-01T00:22:42Z oleo: lol
2018-01-01T00:22:53Z aeth: loop is more like COBOL?
2018-01-01T00:22:54Z aeth: :-p
2018-01-01T00:23:44Z aeth: Well, COBOL, SQL, Shakespeare, and other programming languages that try to be like English.
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2018-01-01T00:26:32Z pagnol: being new to lisp I just began looking into asdf and in particular the format of asd files, and I noticed that apparently asdf doesn't complain if functions from modules that don't officially depend on each other call each other
2018-01-01T00:26:52Z Bike: that's not a level asdf knows about.
2018-01-01T00:27:04Z pagnol: what about the compiler?
2018-01-01T00:27:04Z Bike: but, it's fine to compile calls to functions that aren't yet defined.
2018-01-01T00:27:11Z pagnol: ah
2018-01-01T00:29:31Z aeth: It's worse than that. Sometimes, it will work now (as you're adding those function calls) until you try to load the ASDF system again with a fresh image
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2018-01-01T00:30:33Z Bike: functions don't strictly need to be defined until they're called, most of the time, which supports the ability to redefine, and such.
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2018-01-01T00:33:01Z pagnol: is there some way to enforce the modularity?
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2018-01-01T00:33:26Z pagnol: somehow the lisp way still evades me
2018-01-01T00:33:34Z Bike: like have a compilation fail if it hits a call to an unknown function?
2018-01-01T00:33:45Z pagnol: hmm
2018-01-01T00:33:47Z pagnol: yes?
2018-01-01T00:35:23Z Bike: asdf might have some hook, but it's not something i'm familiar with
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2018-01-01T00:39:43Z pagnol: I can't give modules their own namespace can I? (unless I prefix everything inside)
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2018-01-01T00:42:47Z Bike: we call namespaces packages. you can have however many you want for a module
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2018-01-01T00:46:34Z earl-ducaine: pagnol: A major aspect of CL is that the language itself doesn't have a concept about systems or modules.  Much like Javascript, conventions and tools have grown up address that.
2018-01-01T00:47:59Z earl-ducaine: Don't get confused by CL packages.  Some languange environments use the term package and module interchangably.  In Lisp packages are very different from what many other languange would call a 'package'
2018-01-01T00:48:40Z pagnol: you're right, I was briefly confused by the terminology
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2018-01-01T00:53:04Z aeth: pagnol: There are three concepts. Packages, systems, and projects. Packages are the thing built into the language and they're about namespaces for symbols. Systems are associated with ASDF. They're probably what you think of when you think "package". Quicklisp has the concept of projects, which afaik is just a collection of systems in a directory.
2018-01-01T00:53:34Z pagnol: aeth, thanks
2018-01-01T00:53:35Z |3b|: cl does have a concept of "module", it just isn't very useful so we ignore it :/
2018-01-01T00:53:39Z aeth: e.g. foo and foo/examples and foo/tests are one project, three systems, and any number of packages depending on the architecture.
2018-01-01T00:53:41Z |3b|: clhs require
2018-01-01T00:53:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm
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2018-01-01T00:55:46Z pagnol: aeth, why three systems? wouldn't you put everything into one system?
2018-01-01T00:55:59Z aeth: There are two ways to do packages. One is to do one package per file, at the top of the file, and it looks a lot like Python or Java in the end. This is the minority style. The majority style is to have one package.lisp for the entire system, or possibly one package.lisp per directory if it's a very large project.
2018-01-01T00:57:01Z aeth: There are three ways to do systems. One is to have one large system for everything except possibly tests and examples if they exist. This is the majority style, especially since most projects are small. Another breaks systems into directories. Another associates systems with files and packages, using this: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
2018-01-01T00:57:09Z pagnol: I'm about to begin working on a client-server app and I was going to set it up roughly like this if this makes sense: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/986b798f2292b1537e69ef4742e87aad
2018-01-01T00:57:40Z pagnol: then foo would correspond to the server part, say, and bar to the client part, and they share some utils which would be in 'mylibrary'
2018-01-01T00:57:48Z pagnol: but maybe that doesn't make much sense?
2018-01-01T00:57:53Z |3b|: pagnol: examples and tests frequently have dependencies the main library doesn't, and in addition to wasting space they might also conflict with something that is just trying to use the library
2018-01-01T00:58:02Z pagnol: ah good point
2018-01-01T00:58:35Z earl-ducaine: |3b|: it would have been more correct for me to say that CL *has* the concept of a module, but the standard does not define what it is.
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2018-01-01T00:59:02Z aeth: pagnol: If you're doing client and server and utils, you probably want (at least) three systems. Someone who's deploying a server probably isn't interested in what foo/client (or foo.client or com.example.client or however you want to name it) provides.
2018-01-01T00:59:04Z pagnol: so then you would have three separate calls to asdf:defsystem for tests, examples and the actual library/app?
2018-01-01T00:59:09Z |3b|: you might also have things that link your library to another but that are optional, so that would also be reasonable to put in a separate system for use by people who want to use both, while people who only use your library don't need to load the other
2018-01-01T00:59:34Z pagnol: would you put the three calls to defsystem into one .asd?
2018-01-01T00:59:57Z aeth: Yes.
2018-01-01T01:00:00Z Bike: yeah, it's not uncommon to define separate thing, thing/tests, thing/example systems
2018-01-01T01:00:13Z Bike: asdf whines at you if you name them something but foo/whatever
2018-01-01T01:00:34Z |3b|: earl-ducaine: yeah, lack of specification is what makes it less useful
2018-01-01T01:00:37Z pagnol: and inside my project directory have a subdirectory for each system defined with defsystem?
2018-01-01T01:01:47Z aeth: pagnol: If you are breaking things up into subdirectories, unless those subdirectories are just foo/examples/ and foo/tests/ then it makes sense to use separate directories, like foo/client/, foo/server/, and foo/utils/
2018-01-01T01:02:05Z aeth: s/separate directories/separate directories for everything/
2018-01-01T01:02:27Z aeth: For anything really small, it doesn't matter, but if it's large, directories are useful to organize things.
2018-01-01T01:02:32Z pagnol: alright
2018-01-01T01:02:34Z pagnol: thanks
2018-01-01T01:02:45Z pagnol: that was very helpful
2018-01-01T01:03:06Z aeth: If you want to go with a fairly standard style, you should probably have one system definition per directory and one package.lisp in each directory for the package definition.
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2018-01-01T01:03:25Z aeth: (the system definitions do not go in the subdirectories, and can go in one file)
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2018-01-01T01:07:07Z earl-ducaine: pagnol: if you're using quicklisp, you can inspect the ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software directory which will have all the sources quicklisp has downloaded.  That will provide you with a wealth of examples of how people have structured their asdf projects.
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2018-01-01T01:09:51Z aeth: You can use something like Quickproject. https://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/
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2018-01-01T01:10:36Z aeth: Or you can set things up once and basically just copy your old project foo.asd file to use for new bar.asd file when you want to make bar instead of foo
2018-01-01T01:12:24Z aeth: If you set things up on your own, you probably want to create a link in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ (or wherever your local-projects directory is) to wherever your project is so Quicklisp can find it as if it was in Quicklisp, e.g. like this: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects/; ln -s ~/git/foo
2018-01-01T01:12:40Z aeth: If you use Quickproject, it automatically registers the system so ASDF and Quicklisp can find it iirc.
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2018-01-01T05:00:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-01T05:01:04Z beach: And a happy new year 2018.
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2018-01-01T05:12:34Z wxie: hi
2018-01-01T05:12:39Z wxie: question:
2018-01-01T05:12:49Z wxie: (macroexpand-1 (with-gensyms (result)
2018-01-01T05:12:49Z wxie: 	   `(let ((,result t))
2018-01-01T05:12:49Z wxie: 	     (format t "~a ~%" ,result))))
2018-01-01T05:13:29Z wxie: why do I get an error: LET: variable RESULT has no value?
2018-01-01T05:14:06Z beach: Maybe because you didn't quote the form that you submitted to macroexpand-1?
2018-01-01T05:15:18Z wxie: Thanks.
2018-01-01T05:15:44Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-01T05:16:33Z wxie: It becomes: (LET NIL ...)?
2018-01-01T05:17:23Z Bike: (let () ...)? that's ok
2018-01-01T05:17:31Z wxie: This causes that result is not bound.
2018-01-01T05:17:39Z Bike: no, something in the ... does
2018-01-01T05:17:56Z beach: Well, I don't know where you got your with-gensyms from.
2018-01-01T05:18:00Z wxie: (LET NIL `(LET ((,RESULT T)) (FORMAT T "~a ~%" ,RESULT)))
2018-01-01T05:18:36Z Bike: that's from what, (macroexpand-1 (with-gensyms ...))? or (macroexpand-1 '(with-gensyms ...))?
2018-01-01T05:19:00Z wxie: The second (with quote).
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2018-01-01T05:20:04Z Bike: your with-gensyms is messed up, i guess
2018-01-01T05:20:21Z Bike: with alexandria's, i get (let ((result (gensym "RESULT"))) ...)
2018-01-01T05:20:52Z krwq: wxie: use quote before expression in macroexpand
2018-01-01T05:21:14Z krwq: oh wait
2018-01-01T05:21:14Z krwq: nvm
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2018-01-01T05:30:21Z wxie: gensym is:
2018-01-01T05:30:26Z wxie: (defmacro with-gensyms ((&rest names) &body body)
2018-01-01T05:30:26Z wxie:   `(let ,(loop for n in names collect `(,n (gensym)))
2018-01-01T05:30:26Z wxie:      ,@body))
2018-01-01T05:30:47Z wxie: (gensym 0)
2018-01-01T05:30:47Z wxie: #:G0
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2018-01-01T05:34:27Z Bike: if i use that with-gensyms i don't get any let nil.
2018-01-01T05:34:38Z Bike: are you sure that that is the definition in force?
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2018-01-01T05:36:17Z krwq: i find using literals inside the loop problematic - try using `(list ,n (gensym))
2018-01-01T05:36:49Z Bike: you mean (list n '(gensym))
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2018-01-01T05:40:04Z wxie: I do not need rewrite the with-gensyms anyway. The problem remains.
2018-01-01T05:40:24Z Bike: i can't reproduce. your definition works fine here.
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2018-01-01T05:41:44Z wxie: Thanks.
2018-01-01T05:41:44Z krwq: what does (symbol-package 'loop) and *package* return?
2018-01-01T05:42:25Z wxie: #<PACKAGE COMMON-LISP>
2018-01-01T05:43:16Z krwq: what about (with-gensyms (foo) foo)?
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2018-01-01T05:47:30Z wxie: - LET: variable FOO has no value
2018-01-01T05:47:39Z wxie: tHAT'S THE problem.
2018-01-01T05:48:01Z krwq: ok, did you use alexandria?
2018-01-01T05:48:13Z krwq: (ql:quickload :alexandria) (use-package :alexandria)
2018-01-01T05:48:16Z Bike: they pasted the definition right there
2018-01-01T05:48:28Z krwq: take-new when it asks to override with-genyms
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2018-01-01T05:49:08Z Bike: or just run your defmacro again. the point is whatever macro you have bound to with-gensyms ain't that one
2018-01-01T05:49:24Z krwq: i think he removed it
2018-01-01T05:49:48Z krwq: but i guess only in source code
2018-01-01T05:49:56Z krwq: not uninterned
2018-01-01T05:52:55Z wxie: Ok, it works with alwxandria. Thanks. Is that standard Common Lisp?
2018-01-01T05:53:05Z pjb: Nope.
2018-01-01T05:53:11Z pjb: (ql:quickload :alexandria)
2018-01-01T05:53:17Z krwq: wxie: it is one of the most popular libs though
2018-01-01T05:53:41Z Bike: i mean, the library is written in standard cl
2018-01-01T05:53:41Z wxie: It overrides several CL functions.
2018-01-01T05:53:52Z Bike: alexandria? no it does not.
2018-01-01T05:54:33Z wxie: I was asked to take a few.
2018-01-01T05:55:10Z Bike: your image is in a strange state.
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2018-01-01T05:58:33Z wxie: It's clisp-2.49, and very stable so far.
2018-01-01T06:00:15Z Bike: no, i mean you did some definingn or undefining or package imports or something.
2018-01-01T06:00:24Z Bike: if you start a fresh clisp and load alexandria there should be no conflicts.
2018-01-01T06:01:10Z wxie: ok
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2018-01-01T06:07:52Z krwq: wxie - when you use symbol in your image which doesn't exist it will be interned - after you use alexandria and add the symbol which didn't exist before it will see conflict because you already have it
2018-01-01T06:08:26Z krwq: so the symbol is interned but it is not bound to any function to variable
2018-01-01T06:08:36Z krwq: or variable*
2018-01-01T06:08:45Z wxie: Thanks for helping. Glad that it is solved.
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2018-01-01T06:54:25Z shrdlu68: Good morning, fellow earthlings!
2018-01-01T06:54:48Z notzmv: morning
2018-01-01T06:54:55Z notzmv: happy new year
2018-01-01T06:55:21Z shrdlu68: Happy new orbit
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2018-01-01T07:07:09Z shrdlu68: What's the way to wait till a thread exits in bordeaux-threads? The docs advise against #'join-thread
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2018-01-01T07:09:07Z shrdlu68: Hmm, I could use condition variables...
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2018-01-01T08:56:13Z shrdlu68: This function counts from 0 past 7 and errors. However, changing "*standard-output*" to "t" in line 8 changes that. How is this happening? https://paste.pound-python.org/show/kNpHapRGwKjykU7YFXSX/
2018-01-01T08:58:04Z shrdlu68: i.e if I change *standard-output* to t it runs perfectly and counts only from 0 to 7 as it should.
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2018-01-01T09:02:21Z whoman: hm, try to flush stdio ?
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2018-01-01T09:03:01Z whoman: or .. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27178642/sbcl-multiple-threads-write-to-standard-output  ?
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2018-01-01T09:04:42Z shrdlu68: Further investigation shows that it happens either way, just not predictably.
2018-01-01T09:05:48Z shrdlu68: Even without printing, why would it count past 7?
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2018-01-01T09:09:15Z beach: It is not specified whether the final value of a loop counter is the last value you specified or one greater.
2018-01-01T09:09:27Z beach: I believe in SBCL it is one greater.
2018-01-01T09:09:51Z beach: Or, maybe it's specified to be wrong.  I forget
2018-01-01T09:09:59Z beach: SICL LOOP doesn't have this problem, of course. :)
2018-01-01T09:13:30Z shrdlu68: But (loop for i from 0 to 7 collecting i) always results in '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) in SBCL under normal circumstances.
2018-01-01T09:13:59Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: The problem is that the thread might start after the loop has finished.
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2018-01-01T09:15:13Z Shinmera: If you want to avoid this you need to create a new binding for the index around each thread creation.
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2018-01-01T09:16:19Z shrdlu68: I see. I'm currently creating a new binding _inside_ each thread.
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2018-01-01T12:09:19Z phoe: How can I tell DRAKMA to error if it encounters a response code like 4xx or 5xx?
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2018-01-01T12:16:02Z JuanDaugherty: it will have already done, you just need to hook, it's your job
2018-01-01T12:16:29Z JuanDaugherty: because programmer
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2018-01-01T12:20:37Z Xach: phoe: I generally wrap raw drakma to do things like that when working with apis.
2018-01-01T12:21:20Z Xach: I'll glom all the separate bits into a single response object, then specialize that object, then have a gf that finds an error condition for that object based on all its parts (response code, headers, body)
2018-01-01T12:21:47Z Xach: For some APIs 4xx isn't an error, for example.
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2018-01-01T12:28:44Z phoe: Xach: got it, thanks.
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2018-01-01T12:51:01Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly dexador errors on non-200 codes.
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2018-01-01T12:53:29Z phoe: Shinmera: dexador "is still BETA quality. The APIs will be likely to change."
2018-01-01T12:53:33Z phoe: but I'm nitpicking now. (:
2018-01-01T12:53:55Z Shinmera: Sure, I can't recommend it myself either as I've had it fail on some sites.
2018-01-01T12:54:03Z Shinmera: It is much faster than drakma when it works
2018-01-01T12:54:17Z Shinmera: Which can be important
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2018-01-01T13:06:16Z Xach: What's the difference between Shinmera and Shirakumo?
2018-01-01T13:07:42Z Shinmera: There's other people in shirakumo. http://shirakumo.org/
2018-01-01T13:07:58Z Shinmera: But it's still 99.9% me, so
2018-01-01T13:08:03Z Shinmera: Not that much
2018-01-01T13:09:16Z Xach: Shinmera: If I made a feed for build failures, should I lump them together?
2018-01-01T13:09:25Z Xach: I am doing some pattern-matching heuristics
2018-01-01T13:09:47Z Shinmera: I don't know if grouping things into a single feed per author is a good idea. Some people might individually care about failures of a particular project.
2018-01-01T13:09:53Z Shinmera: Unless you're going to offer both.
2018-01-01T13:10:25Z Shinmera: And no, I'm fine with subscribing to multiple feeds, so just doing per-github-account or something is fine by me.
2018-01-01T13:10:41Z Shinmera: No need to put them together.
2018-01-01T13:11:20Z Shinmera: And who knows, maybe some day I'll get lucky and someone else will finally contribute significantly to Shirakumo projects.
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2018-01-01T13:56:53Z phoe: I have a list (A B C D E F ... P Q R ... X Y Z). Is there a function that will get me a subsequence of this list, starting from the beginning, and ending at Q?
2018-01-01T13:57:09Z phoe: Where Q can be any object.
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2018-01-01T13:57:59Z phoe: Or should I just use SUBSEQ with POSITION?
2018-01-01T13:58:03Z beach: (subseq list 0 1+ (position 'Q list)))
2018-01-01T13:58:12Z beach: er, you see what I mean.
2018-01-01T13:59:37Z Shinmera: (loop for c in list until (eq c thing) collect c)
2018-01-01T14:00:16Z beach: You'll miss the Q then.
2018-01-01T14:00:31Z Shinmera: move the until after the collect if you want the q
2018-01-01T14:01:08Z phoe: Got it. Thanks!
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2018-01-01T14:08:05Z Xach: phoe: i have a weird variation
2018-01-01T14:08:52Z Xach: (ldiff list (cdr (member 'q list)))
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2018-01-01T14:09:20Z Xach: i don't see ldiff used a lot.
2018-01-01T14:09:21Z _death: I was just about to say.. but why CDR?
2018-01-01T14:09:37Z beach: So that Q is in the result?
2018-01-01T14:10:07Z Xach: if you want Q as the final object.
2018-01-01T14:10:08Z _death: right, guess I expected a closed interval
2018-01-01T14:10:34Z sabrac: hello everyone
2018-01-01T14:10:46Z Xach: hi sabrac. thanks for making your library comparison pages. they are great.
2018-01-01T14:10:49Z beach: Hello sabrac.
2018-01-01T14:12:06Z sabrac: Thank you. I wish I had more time to work on them because I learn so much doing them.
2018-01-01T14:12:45Z sabrac: Is there anything in particular I should prioritize?
2018-01-01T14:13:14Z pagnol: I sometimes see keywords prefixed with a #, like #:abc, what are those?
2018-01-01T14:13:20Z Shinmera: sabrac: I remember you mailing me about one some months back, but I don't recall it ever getting released
2018-01-01T14:13:26Z Shinmera: I forgot what it was about though :(
2018-01-01T14:13:55Z _death: pagnol: these aren't keywords, but uninterned symbols
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2018-01-01T14:14:53Z _death: pagnol: you should tokenize them in your mind as #: abc rather than # :abc..
2018-01-01T14:16:36Z pagnol: ah, thanks
2018-01-01T14:16:38Z _death: clhs #:
2018-01-01T14:16:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
2018-01-01T14:17:36Z phoe: Xach: ldiff! that was the function I was thinking of.
2018-01-01T14:17:49Z sabrac: Shinmera: I have one half completed on test frameworks. Work got in the way.
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2018-01-01T14:18:27Z Shinmera: Ah, that was it
2018-01-01T14:19:18Z pagnol: apparently people use dots in package names to achieve something like nested namespaces, I'm wondering if I should adopt that
2018-01-01T14:19:19Z phoe: clhs ldiff
2018-01-01T14:19:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldiffc.htm
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2018-01-01T14:21:28Z Xach: pagnol: It's syntactic only
2018-01-01T14:21:33Z Xach: pagnol: I don't prarticularly like it.
2018-01-01T14:21:40Z Xach: Slashes are even uglier to me.
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2018-01-01T14:22:41Z _death: with package-inferred-systems slashes have semantics
2018-01-01T14:24:13Z _death: also slime will display only the part after the last dot in the repl
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2018-01-01T14:30:30Z pagnol: Xach, is there anything else you use to imitate nested namespaces?
2018-01-01T14:30:57Z beach: pagnol: Hierarchies are not necessarily good.
2018-01-01T14:31:11Z beach: Perhaps it is time to use package-local nicknames.
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2018-01-01T14:32:07Z beach: pagnol: That way, you can use long names for your packages and short ones to refer to them.
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2018-01-01T14:33:33Z Xach: pagnol: for related packages, i use a short or abbreviated prefix and a hyphen.
2018-01-01T14:35:20Z Xach: Some systems use one big package and lump everything into it. I don't like that style a lot - I want the comfort of knowing I won't affect unrelated things in a particular section of a larger project.
2018-01-01T14:35:58Z Shinmera: I use both the FQDN style and the basic hyphen style.
2018-01-01T14:36:52Z pagnol: fqdn?
2018-01-01T14:36:58Z Shinmera: Fully Qualified Domain Name
2018-01-01T14:37:29Z sabrac: _death: Thank you for the reminder on package-inferred systems. I had forgotten about that. Heads off to re-read the asdf documentation.
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2018-01-01T14:39:13Z Shinmera: sabrac: By the way, thanks again for the feedback and bug reports that spawned from the previous articles you wrote :)
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2018-01-01T14:45:54Z KZiemian: AreoNoxi: hello
2018-01-01T14:46:06Z sabrac: Shinmera: Thank you for actually documenting things.
2018-01-01T14:46:14Z KZiemian: AreoNoxi: have you still some question about CLUS
2018-01-01T14:46:38Z KZiemian: AreoNoxi: maybe today I can give you some clues
2018-01-01T14:46:57Z Shinmera: KZiemian: You're typing the name wrong
2018-01-01T14:47:42Z KZiemian: Shinmera: oh, yes you are right
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2018-01-01T14:48:18Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: hello
2018-01-01T14:50:26Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: maybe today I can give more things about CLUS
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2018-01-01T14:54:53Z KZiemian: will we celabreat in some way 60 years of Lisp?
2018-01-01T14:55:17Z KZiemian: my celebration: write 10 real program in CL
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2018-01-01T14:55:31Z KZiemian: maybe give a look o Scheme
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2018-01-01T14:55:38Z KZiemian: *on Scheme
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2018-01-01T15:02:27Z KZiemian: phoe: are you here?
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2018-01-01T15:29:36Z pagnol: I got the impression there's quite a high reliance on global variables in lisp libraries
2018-01-01T15:30:57Z shka: pagnol: special variables with global scope
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2018-01-01T15:35:55Z beach: pagnol: It is a convenient way of having several parameters without passing them explicitly to each function.
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2018-01-01T15:48:13Z beach: pagnol: And in most Common Lisp implementations, a binding of a special variable is thread local (the global value is shared).  That makes special variables even more convenient.
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2018-01-01T15:52:06Z shka: and you can shadow dynamic binding with let
2018-01-01T15:52:51Z shka: it is perhaps one of more useful features of lispy languages
2018-01-01T15:53:34Z shka: metabang-bind is cool, btw
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2018-01-01T15:55:01Z beach: Yes, one of the more useful features, together with CLOS, macros, uniform syntax, reader macros, arbitrary precision integers, exact rationals, programmable reader, compiler available at runtime, packages, symbols, the LOOP macro, FORMAT, compiler macros, etc. etc. :)
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2018-01-01T15:56:40Z random-nick: beach: also reader/writer available at runtime
2018-01-01T16:01:14Z beach: That's in the "etc." part. :)
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2018-01-01T16:21:33Z shka: beach: very nice list :D
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2018-01-01T17:13:36Z tfb: shka: I repeatedly find myself having to *implement* dynamic binding in other languages.
2018-01-01T17:14:18Z shka: tfb: ikr
2018-01-01T17:14:36Z shka: dynamic bindings are just very, very useful
2018-01-01T17:15:16Z shka: in some cases, are perhaps just the right thing
2018-01-01T17:15:18Z pagnol: is there something like (defun always (x) (lambda (_) x)) anywhere?
2018-01-01T17:15:21Z pagnol: in lisp
2018-01-01T17:15:34Z shka: pagnol: curry identity
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2018-01-01T17:16:49Z shka: for instance, i can't imagine anything better for *output* stream
2018-01-01T17:17:23Z shka: pagnol: if you are not using alexandria, quickload it, then (alexandria:curry #'identity x) will do the trick
2018-01-01T17:17:28Z pagnol: ah alexandria has a CURRY function
2018-01-01T17:17:35Z pagnol: thanks
2018-01-01T17:17:39Z pagnol: nice
2018-01-01T17:17:58Z sonologico: pagnol: doesn't constantly do this?
2018-01-01T17:18:14Z pagnol: I didn't know constantly
2018-01-01T17:18:30Z shka: oh, forgot about constantly
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2018-01-01T17:18:49Z pagnol: sonologico, that seems to be what I want, thank you
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2018-01-01T17:20:21Z sonologico: pagnol: the resulting function accepts more combinations of arguments than what you wrote, but it does the trick
2018-01-01T17:21:36Z pagnol: does anyone have a recommendation for a simple logging library?
2018-01-01T17:23:10Z Shinmera: Verbose
2018-01-01T17:23:28Z Shinmera: A very biased recommendation I must say.
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2018-01-01T17:23:49Z Shinmera: And it's simple to use, but not necessarily simple in what it does.
2018-01-01T17:23:57Z Shinmera: The simplest logging library in terms of what it does is FORMAT
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2018-01-01T17:32:38Z Xach: uh
2018-01-01T17:32:43Z Xach: phew
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2018-01-01T17:34:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Something wrong?
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2018-01-01T17:39:35Z dmiles: Does anyone know how to get clisp to remember history between sessions with rlwrap?
2018-01-01T17:39:58Z dmiles: (note, rlwrap disables tself since clisp already uses readline)
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2018-01-01T17:40:58Z dmiles: (so checking to see if anyone made clisp disable its readline and forced rlwrap to takeover or suppliment)
2018-01-01T17:43:01Z shka: dmiles: why not just use good old slime?
2018-01-01T17:43:03Z dmiles: sorry.. i think i found a few docs on  doing this
2018-01-01T17:43:52Z Xach: Shinmera: reading backscroll, urgently waiting to read CONSTANTLY
2018-01-01T17:44:05Z Shinmera: Xach: heh
2018-01-01T17:44:17Z dmiles: Shinmera: it is because i need to run sbcl,ecl,clisp,abcl in aunified history
2018-01-01T17:44:45Z Shinmera: Slime keeps a repl history too
2018-01-01T17:45:12Z dmiles: right on
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2018-01-01T17:52:58Z asarch: Best wishes to all of you. Happy new year! o/
2018-01-01T17:55:02Z loli: I have a question how best to represent an ADT for CLOS
2018-01-01T17:55:36Z loli: the issue I run into is that I make a few structs to model the type, and I terminate the structure on a symbol
2018-01-01T17:56:14Z loli: but the issue is that symbols don't really play nice when trying to defmethod as other data structures end on a symbol and there would thus be a conflict
2018-01-01T17:56:23Z loli: here is an example of what I'm talking about
2018-01-01T17:56:25Z loli: http://lpaste.net/7233336894879170560
2018-01-01T17:56:39Z loli: Is there a better way to form such a type?
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2018-01-01T17:57:20Z Xach: loli: what do you mean when you write that "symbols don't really play nice"?
2018-01-01T17:57:42Z loli: well if I tried to do (defmethod foldr (f x (empty symbol))
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2018-01-01T17:57:59Z loli: this method will now pop up on every symbol instance
2018-01-01T17:58:05Z Xach: loli: instead you would do (defmethod foldr (f x ((empty (eql :empty)))) ...)
2018-01-01T17:58:11Z shka: loli: (eql :empty)
2018-01-01T17:58:13Z Xach: sorry, i have added too many layers
2018-01-01T17:58:15Z loli: you can do that}
2018-01-01T17:58:18Z Xach: (empty (eql :empty))
2018-01-01T17:58:19Z Xach: yes
2018-01-01T17:58:22Z loli: awesome
2018-01-01T17:58:30Z loli: that helps me out a lot
2018-01-01T17:58:36Z Xach: i live to serve
2018-01-01T17:58:36Z loli: as a lot of my data structures end up this way
2018-01-01T17:58:45Z shka: it is surprisingly useful as well
2018-01-01T17:58:52Z shka: for expandable macros and stuff
2018-01-01T17:59:07Z Xach: so useful
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2018-01-01T18:00:42Z loli: expandable macros?
2018-01-01T18:01:25Z shka: macros that allow to add new functionalities to it
2018-01-01T18:01:33Z loli: ahh
2018-01-01T18:01:35Z shka: metabang-bind for instance
2018-01-01T18:01:43Z loli: g! was rather nice
2018-01-01T18:01:55Z loli: I took inspiration from that and made s! for automatic semaphore injection
2018-01-01T18:01:59Z loli: was rather nice to design
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2018-01-01T18:44:56Z emaczen: SBCL from the debugger with SLIME won't find my sources with M-. or v -- what should I try?
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2018-01-01T18:56:03Z beach: Do you have a high DEBUG setting?
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2018-01-01T18:59:16Z beach: emaczen: Do you have a high DEBUG setting?
2018-01-01T18:59:45Z emaczen: I think it is set to 0
2018-01-01T19:00:00Z beach: That might explain it then.
2018-01-01T19:00:36Z emaczen: beach: I will try it out and see
2018-01-01T19:00:45Z beach: I have this in my .sbclrc: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2018-01-01T19:01:11Z beach: It is unfortunate that SBCL is not delivered with these values as the default.
2018-01-01T19:01:47Z beach: Lots of people just use the default values, and waste a lot of time trying to debug their code with insufficient information generated by the compiler.
2018-01-01T19:02:38Z emaczen: beach: I have been using CCL to debug since it seems to by default always give me a lot of information in the debugger haha
2018-01-01T19:03:12Z beach: Yes, I see.
2018-01-01T19:03:24Z beach: So you are one more victim of SBCL's default values.
2018-01-01T19:03:40Z rumbler31: beach: how would you go about triggering a recompilation once you want to change those values?
2018-01-01T19:04:11Z beach: rumbler31: I guess use :FORCE T with ASDF.
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2018-01-01T19:07:13Z emaczen: beach
2018-01-01T19:07:20Z emaczen: beach: It still won't show me local variables
2018-01-01T19:07:33Z emaczen: It is showing me local variables for SBCL code but not my own
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2018-01-01T19:16:14Z parjanya: beach: what does optimize do? my google powers fail me
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2018-01-01T19:18:11Z Bike: clhs optimize
2018-01-01T19:18:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
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2018-01-01T19:19:50Z parjanya: ah, I thought it was sbcl specific. tx!
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2018-01-01T19:30:28Z pagnol: I've begun littering my code with check-type and assert... presumably this is a very unidiomatic style in cl?
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2018-01-01T19:30:42Z Bike: eh, it's ok.
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2018-01-01T19:33:37Z pjb: pagnol: not at all.
2018-01-01T19:33:59Z pjb: pagnol: check-type is what you should use (instead of declare type), in ALL your public functions!
2018-01-01T19:34:17Z pjb: and assert can be used as much as you want.
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2018-01-01T19:45:30Z _death: for some definition of "public"
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2018-01-01T19:50:48Z pagnol: pjb, thanks, that's very comforting ;-)
2018-01-01T19:51:09Z pagnol: presumably sbcl takes advantage of check-type occurrences?
2018-01-01T19:52:14Z pjb: Of course. The post condition of check-type is that the place is bound to an object of the given type.
2018-01-01T19:58:23Z _death: I think with the python compiler one of the big things was also the converse, that type declarations can perform as type checks (forget safety 0)
2018-01-01T20:00:34Z Xach: pagnol: adding lots of checks makes it harder to change things in the future. sometimes that's not very important.
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2018-01-01T20:01:47Z pjb: Also, (defmacro disable-assert (&body body) `(macrolet ((assert (&rest args) 'nil)) ,@body))   (#+want-assert progn #-want-assert disable-assert …)
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2018-01-01T20:03:40Z pjb: err, nope.  Forbidden by 11.1.2.1.2 (and not allowed by 11.1.2.1.2.1)
2018-01-01T20:04:09Z pjb: You would have to use your own macro, not cl:assert.  This allows you to globally enable or disable checks if you want that too.
2018-01-01T20:04:34Z _death: (:use "COMMON-LISP-WITHOUT-SAFETY-NET")
2018-01-01T20:04:51Z pjb: Yes.
2018-01-01T20:04:55Z makomo: pjb: lol, i thought for a second that string of numbers was a version number. phew...
2018-01-01T20:05:12Z pjb: It's a famous section.
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2018-01-01T21:00:29Z pagnol: is there anything wrong with having a macro that creates a new class?
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2018-01-01T21:00:54Z fourier: no
2018-01-01T21:01:36Z _death: no, but sometimes this suggests that a mop-based approach may be appropriate
2018-01-01T21:01:58Z fourier: it is what happens for example in Rainer Joswig's dsl-in-lisp video
2018-01-01T21:03:44Z pagnol: _death, what's a mop-based approach?
2018-01-01T21:04:10Z pagnol: fourier, thanks for the reference
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2018-01-01T21:06:12Z _death: pagnol: mop = metaobject protocol, which gives a way of introspecting and extending CLOS
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2018-01-01T21:06:47Z pagnol: _death, ah, thanks, that's an aspect of lisp I haven't investigated at all yet
2018-01-01T21:07:39Z pagnol: so this is what the book 'The Art of the Metaobject Protocol' is about
2018-01-01T21:07:46Z _death: yes
2018-01-01T21:07:55Z pagnol: I've seen it on amazon so many times without knowing what it's about
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2018-01-01T21:08:44Z pagnol: is the book still a good introduction to the topic?
2018-01-01T21:08:52Z _death: to me it showed how simple CLOS is at the core
2018-01-01T21:09:01Z pagnol: almost three decades after its publication
2018-01-01T21:09:05Z shka: the art of metaobject protocol is the best book about MOP present
2018-01-01T21:09:17Z _death: it is _the_ book about the topic :)
2018-01-01T21:09:29Z fourier: pagnol: dont forget nothing changes in the common lisp standard world
2018-01-01T21:09:38Z shka: it is good read for anyone interested in MOPs of any kind
2018-01-01T21:09:40Z fourier: so the old book is not necessarily bad
2018-01-01T21:09:41Z shka: not just CLOS mop
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2018-01-01T21:10:23Z shka: smalltalk, ruby, even python
2018-01-01T21:10:30Z _death: I also really like its cover ;)
2018-01-01T21:10:36Z shka: though python mop is weird
2018-01-01T21:10:41Z shka: yes
2018-01-01T21:10:55Z shka: even if you don't like the book, it looks pretty
2018-01-01T21:11:01Z shka: that's great :P
2018-01-01T21:11:14Z _death: with the three authors reflecting to create the light of the lambda
2018-01-01T21:11:30Z pagnol: ok I just went to the bookstore and am going to begin reading
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2018-01-01T21:15:05Z shka: pagnol: good
2018-01-01T21:15:47Z shka: pagnol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQ_mp9TzZY
2018-01-01T21:20:54Z pagnol: I only have lynx so can't watch the video
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2018-01-01T21:21:29Z shka: use mplayer, pagnol
2018-01-01T21:22:11Z aeth: pagnol: Macros can easily cause problems and unreadable code, but imo there are three common patterns that are very safe to stick with: define-foo, do-foo, and with-foo. (There are some uncommon ones that are safe, too, like foof, similar to incf or decf, that can be defined trivially via define-modify-macro.)
2018-01-01T21:23:07Z aeth: Pretty much everyone should be able to read these, especially if you stay close to similar APIs.
2018-01-01T21:24:53Z aeth: If you're talking about a define-foo, that appears all of the time. Sometimes it appears as "deffoo" if foo is one word, but please don't do that. Tools like emacs only recognize define-* and built in def* like defun, so your form won't stand out as a define.
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2018-01-01T21:27:05Z aeth: define-foos are global, though, so that might not be what you're talking about.
2018-01-01T21:27:44Z aeth: For local bindings or creation without bindings, it gets a bit more complicated.
2018-01-01T21:28:46Z aeth: (Can classes be defined locally in CL?)
2018-01-01T21:29:09Z Bike: not lexically.
2018-01-01T21:29:54Z Bike: you could do a dynamic binding deal with setf and unwind-protect, though it would be dumb as hell and inconvenient besides.
2018-01-01T21:31:03Z pagnol: I was going to set up a macro that creates a global class
2018-01-01T21:31:09Z pagnol: or just a class
2018-01-01T21:31:15Z pagnol: to be used globally..
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2018-01-01T21:33:32Z Bike: expanding into defclass is fine and normal
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2018-01-01T21:37:46Z pagnol: Bike, it's comforting to know I was not on the wrong track altogether
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2018-01-01T21:41:35Z shka: well
2018-01-01T21:41:55Z shka: try to not write macros
2018-01-01T21:42:44Z shka: or at the very least don't write macros were function will do, or you will use it just a couple of times
2018-01-01T21:42:45Z _death: you can use the mop's ensure-class to create classes, incl. anonymous classes
2018-01-01T21:45:07Z pjb: pagnol: well configured, lynx should be able to show videos in ascii art.
2018-01-01T21:45:24Z aeth: What does lynx offer over elinks?
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2018-01-01T21:47:00Z fourier: is where a nice tutorial on CFFI-Grovel ?
2018-01-01T21:47:13Z aeth: ah, lynx is still getting updates.
2018-01-01T21:48:25Z fourier: or how to create a C file accompanying my lisp code (if I want to implement just one function in C)
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2018-01-01T21:51:14Z _death: the cffi manual?
2018-01-01T21:53:15Z fourier: its kinda really brief on it.
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2018-01-01T21:55:17Z fe[nl]ix: fourier: take a look at iolib
2018-01-01T21:57:20Z aeth: Yeah, look at a library that uses it.
2018-01-01T21:57:30Z aeth: And be prepared to M-. a lot.
2018-01-01T22:00:13Z fourier: fe[nl]ix: thanks, looking into i
2018-01-01T22:00:14Z fourier: t
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2018-01-01T22:43:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I generally like def* more than define-*, editors are programmable for a reason: you should bend the editor to your workflow, not your workflow to the editor.
2018-01-01T22:45:04Z Shinmera: I generally like define-* more than def* and feel it's easier to read and a better convention, so I'm perfectly fine with the editor pushing people in that direction.
2018-01-01T22:46:10Z _death: CL itself is inconsistent with this naming.. I just picked one (define-)
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2018-01-01T22:49:14Z fe[nl]ix: it's def* if it qualifies a single word, define-* if it's two words
2018-01-01T22:49:31Z fe[nl]ix: the only exception if define-condition, so that's pretty ocnsistent
2018-01-01T22:50:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: fe[nl]ix: yeah, that's more or less how I think.
2018-01-01T22:50:46Z Shinmera: That's still a 1/6
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2018-01-01T22:51:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I generally don't find def* less easy to read, since prefixes are pretty normal in ordinary languages
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2018-01-01T22:51:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, define- is a bit too verbose for the amount of work it does, to my taste
2018-01-01T22:52:02Z Shinmera: Pshaw
2018-01-01T22:52:23Z Shinmera: People try to skimp on name length too much
2018-01-01T22:53:07Z aeth: Common Lisp the standard has plenty of archaic styles because it does not break backwards compatibility. That doesn't mean that the older APIs should be emulated. e.g. if you're doing a sequence accessor, copy elt or aref, not nth (and the reason is because there might be more than one index, like in aref, which requires the sequence to come first)
2018-01-01T22:54:18Z phoe: defdef
2018-01-01T22:54:23Z phoe: and you're good to go
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2018-01-01T22:57:06Z aeth: (Sorry, I should clarify that aref is only a sequence accessor when it's a 1D array, but that was not really the point with my example.)
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2018-01-01T23:03:26Z _death: fe[nl]ix: interesting observation.. but not sure I've seen evidence for the existence of such a convention.. if it did exist, I suppose CLOS authors found a loophole.. just shorten the term to one word and we can use defgeneric :)
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2018-01-01T23:06:01Z pjb: In-extenso names are all nice and well, but it often occurs that you have to write formula and that you need concision there, to ease readability, just because it's very much harder to read a formula with a lot of references to the same names when they're long and furthermore, when they have common prefixes!  This is why there is LET, FLET and MACROLET.
2018-01-01T23:06:27Z aeth: http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2018-01-01T23:07:00Z pjb: Said otherwise, when you define APIs, use long and explicit names.  When you use APIs, wrap them around in your own short names.
2018-01-01T23:07:02Z aeth: cliki currently just treats define-foo and deffoo as two conventions.
2018-01-01T23:07:14Z pjb: not deffoo, defoo.
2018-01-01T23:07:17Z pjb: defbar defoo.
2018-01-01T23:07:24Z pjb: defun, not deffun.
2018-01-01T23:07:31Z aeth: that's even worse :-p
2018-01-01T23:07:44Z aeth: Apparently some people want to turn Lisp into English
2018-01-01T23:07:53Z aeth: I want to escape natural languages and their irregularities when I program
2018-01-01T23:08:05Z pjb: aeth: it's not worse, again, it's historic: there are not 2 prefixes, but 3!  DE  DEF  and DEFINE-
2018-01-01T23:08:21Z pjb: In a lot of lisps, you used just DE to define stuff.
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2018-01-01T23:09:31Z _death: I think GOO used (df ...) (dm ...) etc.
2018-01-01T23:10:10Z aeth: Well, that's wasteful of them, just use d
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2018-01-01T23:11:03Z pfdietz: d-notational
2018-01-01T23:11:04Z Shinmera: Just leave the define prefix out entirely, if it's a top-level form it's a definition anyway :^)
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2018-01-01T23:11:08Z Xach: heh
2018-01-01T23:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispy DSLs seem to like going that route...
2018-01-01T23:13:17Z phoe: Shinmera: actually I don't obey this
2018-01-01T23:13:36Z Shinmera: phoe: Please don't take my jokes seriously, tia
2018-01-01T23:13:40Z phoe: Shinmera: (:
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2018-01-01T23:27:48Z fe[nl]ix: _death: it's an old-time Lisp convention, it doesn't surprise me that they didn't think necessary to document it
2018-01-01T23:28:23Z fe[nl]ix: compare DEFSETF <-> DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER
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2018-01-01T23:30:59Z _death: fe[nl]ix: could very well be, since it's similar to the P convention
2018-01-01T23:32:38Z _death: fe[nl]ix: but then I also deviate from the latter convention and stick with -P :)
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2018-01-01T23:46:42Z aeth: The p convention is documented in many places.
2018-01-01T23:48:11Z _death: yep
2018-01-01T23:48:15Z aeth: It has the same issue, though. You can't teach tools that "foop" is supposed to be handled the same as "foo-p" or "foo?" instead of like a word "foop".
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2018-01-01T23:48:32Z aeth: Although I'm not aware of any tools that care.
2018-01-01T23:49:34Z _death: when dealing with conventions nothing is perfect ;)
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2018-01-01T23:52:12Z phoe: ah ha ha ha ha
2018-01-01T23:52:13Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/zAeKRwRP
2018-01-01T23:52:22Z phoe: LZMA-DECODE is the C function
2018-01-01T23:52:28Z phoe: LZMA-DECOMPRESS is the Lisp wrapper
2018-01-01T23:53:20Z phoe: I was decompressing 310 tiny LZMA archives as a benchmark
2018-01-01T23:53:43Z phoe: looks like I need to optimize this a little bit
2018-01-01T23:59:41Z phoe: since decompressing 600kB worth of archives probably shouldn't cons half a gigabyte of memory
2018-01-02T00:00:20Z phoe: but to my defense, back when I wrote this wrapper, I didn't know about STATIC-VECTORS.
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2018-01-02T00:04:00Z _death: I just wrote some terrible lisp as well ;)
2018-01-02T00:04:30Z aeth: I need to look into moving over to static-vectors
2018-01-02T00:04:43Z phoe: ...
2018-01-02T00:04:54Z phoe: CFFI's FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP allocates vectors of element type T
2018-01-02T00:05:04Z phoe: it completely ignores element types
2018-01-02T00:05:15Z phoe: where it could specialize for octets for example
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2018-01-02T00:05:47Z phoe: this sucks curly braces
2018-01-02T00:05:48Z _death: this would break backwards compatibility
2018-01-02T00:05:54Z phoe: yes, yes, I know.
2018-01-02T00:06:07Z phoe: but using static-vectors gives me foreign octet vectors.
2018-01-02T00:06:19Z phoe: and I don't need to COERCE, which probably causes all the insane consing.
2018-01-02T00:06:31Z phoe: I'll switch over to them.
2018-01-02T00:08:13Z aeth: What I try to do is convert while doing a useful operation. So, e.g. I can multiply two CL-native matrices *into* a foreign C matrix rather than having a translation step.
2018-01-02T00:08:24Z aeth: Whether or not that can work for you depends on your specific problem.
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2018-01-02T00:11:24Z _death: ugh, performing computation on a 512M RAM droplet's live image isn't such a good idea.. unless you like meeting the oomkiller
2018-01-02T00:11:31Z pagnol: type-check doesn't let me say that something may also be nil, does it?
2018-01-02T00:12:10Z _death: pagnol: (or something null)
2018-01-02T00:12:17Z pagnol: terrific, thank you
2018-01-02T00:12:30Z aeth: _death: Sounds like a good use case for preallocating literally everything. It's hard, though.
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2018-01-02T00:13:01Z p_l: _death: that's when swap becomes your friend :D
2018-01-02T00:13:56Z _death: in this case it's as simple as running it on my machine and pushing the resulting database
2018-01-02T00:14:33Z phoe: oh well, https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1740800
2018-01-02T00:15:44Z phoe: aeth: my case is dead simple, I have a wrapper around a LZMA library that does (de)compression. It needs raw chunks of uchars to operate on. I need to provide these chunks to it in the cheapest way possible.
2018-01-02T00:15:55Z phoe: No matrix multiplication here or anything.
2018-01-02T00:18:19Z phoe: Anyway - see you tomorrow. Good night, #parentheses.
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2018-01-02T01:16:35Z jmercouris: Can someone explain why write-to-string for my object results in extra quote symbols? https://gist.github.com/d0a026f36d315d36f0c42787216714a7
2018-01-02T01:19:36Z whoman: ~s
2018-01-02T01:19:52Z whoman: afaik prints as string. try ~a ?
2018-01-02T01:19:59Z pfdietz: Yep, ~a
2018-01-02T01:20:16Z jmercouris: I can try that sure
2018-01-02T01:20:21Z jmercouris: Let me see if that works
2018-01-02T01:22:38Z jmercouris: yeah, that seemed to fix it, thank you
2018-01-02T01:22:49Z jmercouris: at least part of the problem
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2018-01-02T01:24:57Z whoman: ^_^ what else?
2018-01-02T01:26:16Z jmercouris: It is a GTK type of issue, basically I can't add things to a GTK list store (model part of mvc for gtk tree view) that are not strings, therefore I have to maintain two lists, one of my actual objects in my model, and one of their string representation
2018-01-02T01:26:39Z jmercouris: So I know what I need to do, it's just kinda a dumb limitation to the way GTK works, I never thought I'd be glad for cocoa delegate model
2018-01-02T01:27:53Z p_l: is there no way to subclass whatever it accepts?
2018-01-02T01:28:25Z jmercouris: p_l: Not that I am aware of, I'm using cl-cffi-gtk, which seems to be a very thin layer over C
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2018-01-02T01:31:43Z jmercouris: It is okay though, it's just for the first release of GTK, I'm sure when some GTK users use it, they'll submit some PRs, at least I hope :D
2018-01-02T01:35:46Z jmercouris: Apparently you can also pass pointers to the model, interesting: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/GTK%2B_By_Example/Tree_View/Tree_Models
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2018-01-02T01:36:20Z jmercouris: I can't imagine how they would render a pointer as a column in a GTK Tree view though
2018-01-02T01:36:28Z jmercouris: probably you have to have at least 1 other column if you use a pointer
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2018-01-02T01:41:11Z p_l: jmercouris: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-cffi-gtk/pages/gtk_class_gtk-tree-model.html ?
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2018-01-02T01:42:08Z p_l: also, http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-cffi-gtk/pages/gtk_class_gtk-list-store.html
2018-01-02T01:44:44Z p_l: ... I'm honestly impressed by that lib
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2018-01-02T01:51:21Z jmercouris: p_l: Correct, but it has to be a GObject, can't be a Lisp object
2018-01-02T01:51:40Z jmercouris: and You can't write your own like "value_for_row" method
2018-01-02T01:51:52Z p_l: jmercouris: yes, and the library provides you with an interface to subclass something that acts as GObject
2018-01-02T01:54:05Z jmercouris: p_l: I didn't see that actually, but the issue is that I need to display any kind of arbitrary object within the tree view
2018-01-02T01:54:50Z jmercouris: p_l: It is for my minibuffer completions, they are just the lisp objects passed to the view to be rendered, in cocoa I do (write-to-string object) and it'll show that object representation for any arbitrary object I add into the model
2018-01-02T01:55:13Z p_l: jmercouris: I'd honestly just try subclassing the list-store class
2018-01-02T01:55:44Z p_l: or subclass tree-model and implement the iteration methods, actually
2018-01-02T01:57:39Z jmercouris: p_l: that makes a lot of sense, but do I know which methdos I need to implement?
2018-01-02T01:58:29Z jmercouris: rather, how do I know which methods I need to implement
2018-01-02T01:59:29Z p_l: hard to say, but I suspect it might just as well be possible to subclass and override the list-store one
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2018-01-02T01:59:48Z p_l: also, just found confirmation that you can subclass GObjects in cl-cffi-gtk: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial_16.html#SEC201
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2018-01-02T02:00:29Z jmercouris: Hmm yeah, that way is definitely possible
2018-01-02T02:00:47Z jmercouris: but I don't want to alter the completions by having to make them be a subclass of GObjects, because it has to work for both Cocoa and GTK
2018-01-02T02:01:18Z p_l: no, no
2018-01-02T02:02:19Z jmercouris: Am I misunderstanding? Can you dynamically subclass in CL or something?
2018-01-02T02:02:36Z jmercouris: At any rate, the completion will eventually pass back the original object to the c
2018-01-02T02:02:44Z jmercouris: completion handler, sorry pressed return instead of delete
2018-01-02T02:03:14Z pagnol: I just found it that it's possible to define macros inside macros
2018-01-02T02:03:23Z pagnol: how awesome
2018-01-02T02:03:30Z pagnol: *found out
2018-01-02T02:03:47Z aeth: That's probably the wrong approach.
2018-01-02T02:04:08Z pagnol: aeth, do you mean me?
2018-01-02T02:04:09Z jmercouris: aeth: What do you mean?
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2018-01-02T02:05:07Z aeth: pagnol: You probably want to use helper functions within an eval-when when macros get really complicated.
2018-01-02T02:05:20Z p_l: jmercouris: you could probably subclass a GtkLabel or something like that, as a wrapper around any random CL object, then put it into list-model
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2018-01-02T02:06:01Z jmercouris: p_l: That's a creative approach, make like a subclassed gobject container object?
2018-01-02T02:06:32Z jmercouris: Why not just something like gojbect-container-object with a slot for a lisp object
2018-01-02T02:06:51Z jmercouris: and of course gobject-container-object would subclass gobject
2018-01-02T02:07:08Z p_l: jmercouris: yeah, subclass gtk-label, adding an extra slot (reference to CL object) and applying an afer method on initialize-instance that sets up the label to be stringified form of the passed in object
2018-01-02T02:07:44Z jmercouris: But why subclass gtk-label instead of gojbect directly?
2018-01-02T02:08:00Z pagnol: aeth, I have set up a macro that defines a class and would like to have another macro that lets me operate on instances of the class defined by the first macro
2018-01-02T02:08:02Z jmercouris: s/gojbect/gobject
2018-01-02T02:08:56Z pagnol: the second macro would like some knowledge that the first macro had... so I'm wondering if I can store something globally for the second macro to pick up?
2018-01-02T02:09:05Z pagnol: *would need some knowledge
2018-01-02T02:10:07Z aeth: pagnol: You could create functions instead of macros, and ideally put that knowledge within the defun you're generating. The general advice in this channel is "Does that have to be a macro or can an inline function work?"
2018-01-02T02:10:34Z p_l: jmercouris: hmm, it looks like you can't just put a widget reference in TreeModel, but you can put in any random crap and write your own renderer
2018-01-02T02:10:40Z aeth: pagnol: Although I'm not sure about your exact details
2018-01-02T02:11:45Z pagnol: it's probably possible... probably since I just learned how to use macros I'm trying to apply them a bit overzealously
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2018-01-02T02:12:32Z jmercouris: p_l: I think I'll do things the hacky way for now, I don't really care to become a GTK expert, it'll take time anyway for me to learn it
2018-01-02T02:12:35Z aeth: You could even put a closure around the function instead of making that information global, e.g. `(let ((foo ,vital-information)) (defun ,generated-function-name (x) (some-function-call foo 42)))
2018-01-02T02:12:42Z jmercouris: head my is full of cocoa stuff right now anyway :D
2018-01-02T02:12:55Z p_l: jmercouris: well, if you're willing to go a bit crazy, there's always the option of using cocoa on other platforms
2018-01-02T02:12:59Z p_l: (yes, it works)
2018-01-02T02:13:10Z jmercouris: p_l: I'm already using Cocoa :)
2018-01-02T02:13:17Z jmercouris: This is me working on the GTK port of my software
2018-01-02T02:13:31Z p_l: jmercouris: yeah, but I mean on *other* platforms so you don't have to deal with GTK :P
2018-01-02T02:13:39Z pagnol: aeth, oh that's an interesting idea
2018-01-02T02:13:42Z jmercouris: p_l: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT
2018-01-02T02:14:04Z jmercouris: Ah yes, that is a whole different challenge :D
2018-01-02T02:14:36Z jmercouris: if I ever get some money I'll hire someone who knows GTK
2018-01-02T02:14:44Z jmercouris: and someone who knows Cocoa, and I'll only write the Lisp part
2018-01-02T02:14:46Z p_l: jmercouris: People have, afaik, succesfully used GNUstep and Cocotron with CCL
2018-01-02T02:15:22Z jmercouris: p_l: Oh yeah, definitely, I've seen +cocotron inside the CCL sources, but I wouldn't get any benefits of cocoa, because I don't believe cocoa webkit is ported to Linux :P
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2018-01-02T02:15:49Z jmercouris: I'll actually eventually even have to change the completion model because I would like to make the interface effectively like a server
2018-01-02T02:16:07Z jmercouris: where the Lisp code is the client/model, and the GUI is the server, and just contains EXTREMELY minimal code
2018-01-02T02:16:30Z jmercouris: my GTK port right now is just 214 lines, the Cocoa one is 285
2018-01-02T02:16:35Z jmercouris: so, writing a port is quite trivial
2018-01-02T02:17:10Z p_l: hmmm
2018-01-02T02:17:18Z jmercouris: beach gave me some good advice in this respect early on, which helped a ton
2018-01-02T02:17:21Z p_l: I think the easiest webkit wrapper was with beach
2018-01-02T02:17:28Z p_l: s/beach/commonqt/
2018-01-02T02:17:31Z p_l: brainfart
2018-01-02T02:17:34Z jmercouris: lol
2018-01-02T02:17:41Z jmercouris: yes, but commonqt is extremely far behind upstream
2018-01-02T02:18:09Z jmercouris: this means if servo comes out tomorrow, I could adapt nEXT to use servo, with basically one or two weeks worth of work
2018-01-02T02:18:19Z jmercouris: I didn't want to be strongly beholden to one system
2018-01-02T02:19:00Z aeth: pagnol: Just as a rule of thumb: macros deal with bindings and places (I hope I'm using the correct terminology). So: define-foo, let-foo, do-foo, with-foo, etc., or any use of define-modify-macro such as inc-foo-f.
2018-01-02T02:19:38Z aeth: Even a lot of those macros can be written as thin wrappers over functions.
2018-01-02T02:19:41Z p_l: jmercouris: I expect Servo to be a hard thing to integrate
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2018-01-02T02:49:25Z jmercouris: p_l: You're not wrong, in general, but the API is extremely small, and IPC can happen over sockets in the worst case scenario
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2018-01-02T03:10:00Z pjb: jmercouris: quote symbols print as: (write-to-string  '\") --> "\\\""
2018-01-02T03:10:25Z pjb: jmercouris: they may also be written as "|\"|"
2018-01-02T03:11:22Z pjb: jmercouris: #\" is (read as) a character. "\"" is a string. |"| is a symbol.
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2018-01-02T03:37:47Z jmercouris: pjb: I didn't know that, interestin
2018-01-02T03:37:52Z jmercouris: pjb: Good morning!
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2018-01-02T04:02:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-02T04:03:00Z jmercouris: Good morning
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2018-01-02T04:08:43Z pjb: jmercouris: (string #\") #| --> "\"" |#   (intern (string #\")) #| --> \" ; :internal |#
2018-01-02T04:08:59Z pjb: jmercouris: (symbol-name '\") #| --> "\"" |#  (character (symbol-name '\")) #| --> #\" |#
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2018-01-02T04:13:07Z jmercouris: pjb: I've read that a few times now, not able to follow it anymore
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2018-01-02T04:13:51Z jmercouris: What does #| mean?
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2018-01-02T04:13:59Z pjb: STRING takes a string designator, which is either a character, a string or a symbol, and returns the corresponding string.
2018-01-02T04:14:12Z pjb: #| is a comment #| and a comment inside a comment |# that ends here |#
2018-01-02T04:14:30Z pjb: INTERN takes a string and returns a symbol.
2018-01-02T04:14:33Z jmercouris: ah okay, I just had a momentary lapse of reason :D
2018-01-02T04:14:44Z pjb: SYMBOL-NAME takes a symbol and returns a string (naming the symbol).
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2018-01-02T04:15:20Z pjb: CHARACTER takes a character designator (which is a character, a string with 1 character or a symbol whose name is a string with 1 character) and returns the corresponding character.
2018-01-02T04:15:35Z jmercouris: yeah, I saw those mentioned in the cl cookbook as well
2018-01-02T04:15:54Z pjb: So those functions let you go between character, string (of 1 character) and symbols (whose names are string of 1 character).
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2018-01-02T04:36:19Z jmercouris: pjb: Do these kinds of functions exist for all built-in data types?
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2018-01-02T04:36:36Z jmercouris: is there something like (INTEGER) as well? or do we have to use parse-integer?
2018-01-02T04:37:03Z jmercouris: just tested in a repl, oh well :(
2018-01-02T04:37:52Z jmercouris: I guess characters and strings have a much more intimate relationship
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2018-01-02T04:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: The most annoying thing to me about the CL standard, is there isn't anything in it besides READ-FROM-STRING and PARSE-INTEGER for converting strings to numbers
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2018-01-02T04:54:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you have to use something like the PARSE-NUMBER package to parse arbitrary numbers
2018-01-02T04:55:37Z aeth: There are many annoying things about the CL standard.
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2018-01-02T04:56:52Z beach: I don't understand this argument.  So many people are using languages that don't even have a standard.  Why is it a disadvantage to have at least SOME features standardized?
2018-01-02T04:57:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not making that argument
2018-01-02T04:57:59Z beach: It sounded like you did.
2018-01-02T04:58:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just saying that it's a bit awkward to have PARSE-INTEGER but not PARSE-FLOAT or similar
2018-01-02T04:58:43Z beach: But you don't have to.  Use something that is not in the standard.
2018-01-02T04:58:43Z p_l: I think it's more like my usual argument, that CL standardized too little
2018-01-02T04:58:52Z beach: You are not forced to use the stuff in the standard.
2018-01-02T04:58:59Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: We should keep a list of things that should be added to the standard one day.
2018-01-02T04:59:09Z Bike: but it would be nice if it was in the standard, since the implementation has to have it anyway
2018-01-02T04:59:12Z beach: All those people who use non-standardized languages use features that are not standardized all the time.
2018-01-02T04:59:33Z aeth: beach: I think the general argument is that there should be additions to the standard, not that there should be no standard.
2018-01-02T04:59:36Z p_l: well, by now, we have an unofficial living standards as well, could be nice if it was somehow codified
2018-01-02T04:59:40Z beach: Bike: Yes, but that's pointless wishing because it aint gonna happen.
2018-01-02T04:59:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm actually happy with the CL standard as-is
2018-01-02T04:59:51Z Bike: how pessimistic
2018-01-02T04:59:59Z p_l: beach: well, maybe not ANSI standard
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2018-01-02T05:00:33Z p_l: but an, let's say, "Open Common Lisp Standard - 2018" could be written ;)
2018-01-02T05:00:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's more a matter of aesthetics: there seem to be a couple lacunae in the standard that are a bit surprising
2018-01-02T05:01:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm perfectly happy, though, with the way, say, threadings and sockets are standardized.
2018-01-02T05:01:23Z aeth: p_l: A good starting point would probably be de facto minimum sizes. The size minimums (e.g. for maximum array lengths or fixnum bit sizes) in the standard are tiny and afaik 16-bit-friendly. It would be enlightening to see what the actual minimum sizes are for actual 32-bit and 64-bit implementations, especially if there is a de facto standard that most follow.
2018-01-02T05:01:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/threadings/threading/
2018-01-02T05:02:02Z aeth: p_l: e.g. A de facto minimum fixnum size for 64-bit implementations should be 60-bit, since that afaik safely covers all of them except clisp.
2018-01-02T05:02:22Z Bike: that doesn't seem that good
2018-01-02T05:02:25Z aeth: If non-conforming implementations can be patched to obey de facto minimums, library authors can make more assumptions.
2018-01-02T05:02:50Z aeth: Bike: Right now, any string longer than 1024 might not run on a conforming CL implementation.
2018-01-02T05:02:58Z beach: I personally think that there are more urgent things to do than to attempt to improve the standard.  We need programming tools and libraries.
2018-01-02T05:03:01Z p_l: aeth: fossilizing ASDF a bit and including it in said standard would cover a pretty big hole left by politics and even worse reasons
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2018-01-02T05:03:28Z Bike: the whole idea of things being declared fixnum instead of unsigned-byte whatever is kind of unfortunate imo
2018-01-02T05:03:30Z p_l: beach: I sometimes think we also need plain old discoverability
2018-01-02T05:03:49Z beach: p_l: Can you elaborate on that?
2018-01-02T05:04:02Z aeth: Bike: strings are just character arrays, so afaik array-total-size-limit of 1024 would apply. This could even make some longer docstrings not fully portable. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
2018-01-02T05:04:10Z p_l: beach: Just today I learned what's the real state of cl-cffi-gtk, and I was blown away
2018-01-02T05:04:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: In a good or bad way?
2018-01-02T05:04:26Z p_l: in VERY good way
2018-01-02T05:04:29Z aeth: Bike: If nothing else, it would be nice to know what array-total-size-limit's actual practical minimums are in 32-bit and 64-bit
2018-01-02T05:04:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah
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2018-01-02T05:05:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I used that at one point, but it's a bit annoying because I gather that the GTK developers are a bit inconsiderate of non-Gnome users of GTK
2018-01-02T05:05:04Z Bike: i don't see why you can't query the implementation for that
2018-01-02T05:05:08Z Bike: but, sleep
2018-01-02T05:05:09Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving)
2018-01-02T05:05:19Z p_l: "where's the gui library" is veeeery common question ultimately, and the answers were always full of problems...
2018-01-02T05:05:26Z p_l: fiddlerwoaroof: true :<
2018-01-02T05:05:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: CAPI is also really nice
2018-01-02T05:05:43Z p_l: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, but CAPI is LW-only
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2018-01-02T05:05:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish LispWorks would just open it up so someone could port it cross-implementations
2018-01-02T05:06:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: of course, it's probably their main selling point, so....
2018-01-02T05:07:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I would commit to mcclim a lot more, if I could make it run on all my platforms :)
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2018-01-02T05:07:16Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Imo Gnome 3 killed GTK, it's just taking a long time for the slow death to happen
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2018-01-02T05:07:35Z p_l: as for programming tools and libraries - I'd love a HTTP/2 lib, better crypto libs (ironclad isn't), Grpc lib, convenience libraries for writing servers/clients, REST-style
2018-01-02T05:07:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, right now, I'm mucking about with a cross-implementation objc/lisp bridge to fix the mac side
2018-01-02T05:07:38Z aeth: GTK apps just look ugly and non-native everywhere except for Gnome 3.
2018-01-02T05:07:54Z p_l: aeth: unfortunately they poisoned everything else through Wayland
2018-01-02T05:08:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, my experience has generally been that GTK is better than Qt as far as cross-platform gui libraries go
2018-01-02T05:08:28Z p_l: (fun fact: Wayland + a ton of custom behaviours is the only really supported GTK3 platform)
2018-01-02T05:09:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another project I've been thinking about is an entirely-lisp graphics stack
2018-01-02T05:09:26Z djeis: Mezzano? :p
2018-01-02T05:09:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's a pain to setup a development environment for such a thing on a laptop that's always on the brink of running out of disk space
2018-01-02T05:09:42Z aeth: Mezzano is imo approaching things the wrong way.
2018-01-02T05:09:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: djeis: no, more like a lisp replacement for X on top of linux
2018-01-02T05:09:51Z aeth: Start at the highest level, replace things on your way down.
2018-01-02T05:10:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mezzano is, however, extremely impressive
2018-01-02T05:10:15Z aeth: It is.
2018-01-02T05:10:26Z aeth: I just don't think it will ever have users.
2018-01-02T05:10:33Z djeis: fiddlerwoaroof: an X replacement in Lisp would be neat. Oh! Ulubis.
2018-01-02T05:10:41Z aeth: If you replace a Unix piece by piece, you might get some users, at least of pieces.
2018-01-02T05:10:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I think you need both approaches, there's so much between distance the top and the bottom that it would take forever
2018-01-02T05:11:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my vision is to wrap the linux kernel with a bunch of lisp :)
2018-01-02T05:11:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. a lisp-init, a lisp-display server, etc.
2018-01-02T05:11:20Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Emacs is almost there with Emacs Lisp, too bad Emacs Lisp is essentially stepping in a time machine back 30 years.
2018-01-02T05:11:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm fairly unlikely to actually do this
2018-01-02T05:12:07Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is, at least, further along than CL is. You have e.g. eshell
2018-01-02T05:13:22Z aeth: You can almost live entirely in Emacs. CL just has stumpwm afaik.
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2018-01-02T05:13:33Z djeis: You can actually build a half-decent DE in emacs
2018-01-02T05:13:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: stumpwm is pretty nice
2018-01-02T05:14:14Z aeth: The main applications I run in stumpwm are emacs, lxterminal (with zsh), and firefox, though.
2018-01-02T05:14:17Z aeth: None of those use CL
2018-01-02T05:14:40Z aeth: So it only replaces one tiny slice of the system.
2018-01-02T05:14:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I use emacs, roxterm, chrome
2018-01-02T05:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I have commands that allow for some interesting workflows
2018-01-02T05:15:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, highlight some text, hit <C-/><RET> and open a google search for the text
2018-01-02T05:15:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, on that note, does lem have a graphical mode now?
2018-01-02T05:16:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, via electron
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2018-01-02T05:19:17Z aeth: CL needs an editor (with replacements for slime and magit), a terminal, multiple shells (standard sh, extended sh like bash or zsh, and sh mixed with CL like eshell), and a web browser. Then, running on stumpwm, you get a much larger percentage of your time actually in the CL ecosystem.
2018-01-02T05:19:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: lem seems to be coming along nicely as an editor
2018-01-02T05:19:44Z aeth: Of these, only the multiple shells one sounds even remotely doable because it's not graphical
2018-01-02T05:20:12Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: The problem with editors is that you have to compete with Emacs.
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2018-01-02T05:20:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: vim, but whatever ;)
2018-01-02T05:20:36Z aeth: You can probably beat Emacs in code quality and performance, but not in features.
2018-01-02T05:20:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: If lem had an evil-mode, I would seriously give it a try
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2018-01-02T05:21:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe there's another project for me to put off
2018-01-02T05:21:12Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: well, vim lost the CL community a while ago :-p
2018-01-02T05:21:20Z aeth: You would need something like evil though, yes
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2018-01-02T05:21:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tell my coworkers that the best implementation of vi is written in emacs lisp
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2018-01-02T05:22:26Z aeth: You'd need equivalents for (at least) paredit (and its numerous competition), magit, evil, and slime
2018-01-02T05:22:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: lem has slime
2018-01-02T05:22:44Z aeth: You'd also probably need modes for other languages because usually people don't program exclusively in CL, which complicates things
2018-01-02T05:22:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: including a mode where it connects to its own lisp impl
2018-01-02T05:23:10Z aeth: SLIME is probably the easiest to get
2018-01-02T05:23:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's actually a pure-lisp implementation of a swank client
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2018-01-02T05:23:46Z aeth: right, SLIME is really about swank
2018-01-02T05:23:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which I've found useful occasionally
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2018-01-02T05:24:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: lem also has a vi-mode
2018-01-02T05:24:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: interesting, this could be really cool...
2018-01-02T05:25:09Z jmercouris: aeth: You'll have a web browser REALLY soon
2018-01-02T05:25:12Z aeth: A CL editor would probably have to support C, C++, Python, Perl (although that's increasingly irrelevant), Scheme (at least Guile and Chicken), Racket, and Clojure.
2018-01-02T05:25:47Z jmercouris: aeth: I think tomorrow I'll release an alpha, and then maybe make an official release sometime this week, if I can get cl-webkit to run on my machine
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2018-01-02T05:26:37Z aeth: oops, I left out shell and configuration files, those are important, too
2018-01-02T05:26:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm sort of in the "lisp-only" bandwagon
2018-01-02T05:27:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not really a problem that DrRacket only supports racket, for example
2018-01-02T05:27:21Z jmercouris: What are some reasons for rewriting emacs in cl?
2018-01-02T05:27:36Z aeth: jmercouris: Performance. Better code quality. Better interoperability with the CL ecosystem.
2018-01-02T05:27:44Z pjb: Because we prefer to write and debug Common Lisp code, rather than C code.
2018-01-02T05:27:52Z pjb: jmercouris: emacs core is written in C!
2018-01-02T05:28:36Z aeth: jmercouris: Emacs is a terminal application that glued on a GUI later, so it has really ugly internals afaik.
2018-01-02T05:28:53Z aeth: (Of course, many people here would consider any C ugly internals.)
2018-01-02T05:29:18Z jmercouris: Hmm, I guess performance hasn't really been an issue for me in emacs
2018-01-02T05:29:24Z jmercouris: my use case of course doesn't represent everyones
2018-01-02T05:29:40Z jmercouris: Also yeah, I would help with emacs if it were not written in C
2018-01-02T05:29:48Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I was just thinking about things that one might have to edit in a Unix environment. That will include C, C++, Python, Perl, shell, and even possibly Ruby in some distros.
2018-01-02T05:29:50Z jmercouris: like "core" emacs, whatever that means
2018-01-02T05:30:06Z pjb: jmercouris: try it with: emacs -Q
2018-01-02T05:30:26Z jmercouris: pjb: doesn't make a huge performance impact the packages I'm using
2018-01-02T05:30:41Z jmercouris: or at least, I'm unable to discern any lag
2018-01-02T05:30:46Z aeth: jmercouris: Just being able to run the Lisp portion of an editor in a fast lisp like SBCL instead of a slow lisp like Emacs Lisp would be a huge win, without much changed.
2018-01-02T05:30:49Z pjb: jmercouris: you don't have any package when you run emacs -Q !
2018-01-02T05:31:04Z pjb: jmercouris: you only get the core emacs, only the C code.
2018-01-02T05:31:07Z pjb: no emacs lisp.
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2018-01-02T05:31:34Z jmercouris: Right, that's what I'm saying
2018-01-02T05:31:43Z jmercouris: if I run emacs or emacs -Q I cannot notice a speed difference
2018-01-02T05:31:54Z pjb: of course. Why would you?
2018-01-02T05:31:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have performance issues in certain modes
2018-01-02T05:32:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I couldn't use ERC for a while because it was eating all my memory
2018-01-02T05:32:29Z jmercouris: pjb: Some people install one billion packages, and then complain when their nyan cat rainbow modeline slows down their system
2018-01-02T05:32:48Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof: I highly reccommend Circe
2018-01-02T05:32:52Z jmercouris: in place of ERC
2018-01-02T05:32:54Z aeth: Emacs is a horrible application. I don't use ERC because I persist my IRC, and I don't persist my Emacs. I restart my Emacs as often as possible. Helps with memory.
2018-01-02T05:33:21Z jmercouris: I've been running emacs for like 2 weeks, and I'm at 268 MB of ram
2018-01-02T05:33:37Z pjb: (uptime) "Up 6d 15h 34m 22s (Tue 2017-12-26 14:59:13), 34 buffers, 5 files"
2018-01-02T05:34:00Z aeth: It wouldn't be hard at all to write something more reliable than Emacs. Just keep safety above 0.
2018-01-02T05:34:06Z jmercouris: pjb: (void-function uptime)?
2018-01-02T05:34:55Z aeth: jmercouris: Emacs for me starts at around 80 MB
2018-01-02T05:35:05Z jmercouris: pjb: M-x emacs-uptime
2018-01-02T05:35:18Z jmercouris: aeth: Still, is 268mb some outrageous sum today?
2018-01-02T05:35:22Z jmercouris: I feel like a single youtube tab is 100mb
2018-01-02T05:35:37Z aeth: Well... don't hold up JavaScript anything as an example of good engineering :-p
2018-01-02T05:35:40Z pjb: jmercouris: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/emacs-uptime.el
2018-01-02T05:35:40Z pjb:  
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2018-01-02T05:36:17Z p_l: a multithreaded, concurrent emacs in CL... one can dream
2018-01-02T05:36:22Z jmercouris: pjb: I've got 25.3.1 and it seems that emacs-uptime comes with it
2018-01-02T05:36:34Z pjb: I've been using emacs since 18.
2018-01-02T05:36:48Z jmercouris: pjb: Maybe time to clean up your init file then ;)
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2018-01-02T05:37:02Z pjb: You never know when you have to use them with old systems…
2018-01-02T05:37:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use a bouncer to persist my irc session.
2018-01-02T05:37:31Z jmercouris turns on the club music
2018-01-02T05:37:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, should give circe a whirl: using trim-buffers, erc seems to be fairly fine for me
2018-01-02T05:38:04Z jmercouris: goodnight everyone
2018-01-02T05:38:25Z aeth: jmercouris: I have 16 GB of RAM on my desktop (although I run IRC on a machine with 512 MB, where memory usage is very important), but even when I have 64 GB of RAM, I'll still hate when RAM gets wasted.
2018-01-02T05:38:50Z jmercouris: aeth: All ram is lost, like tears in rain, do not fight against electron.js, embrace it
2018-01-02T05:39:20Z jmercouris: Ram is like sand, the harder we try to hold it, the quicker it runs through our hands
2018-01-02T05:39:24Z aeth: I aggressively fight RAM waste and I'm still at 1.66 GB before I do anything interesting with it. If I didn't fight it, I'd probably start at 3 GB or more
2018-01-02T05:39:33Z jmercouris: I was totally joking :D
2018-01-02T05:39:34Z aeth: well, 1.66 GB right now...
2018-01-02T05:39:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, erc right now is holding onto 11% of my system's memory
2018-01-02T05:39:54Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof: Get a dedicated ERC machine
2018-01-02T05:40:19Z aeth: This entire machine that hosts my IRC is usually between 60-70 MB of RAM usage.
2018-01-02T05:40:27Z p_l: jmercouris: I fight hard against RAM waste because I already lost the fight on web front
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2018-01-02T05:41:13Z p_l: 16G is not enough
2018-01-02T05:41:26Z aeth: I don't like wasted RAM, but I do prefer CPU performance over RAM efficiency, e.g. I prefer SBCL over alternative CLs even though SBCL starts around 40-60 MB before doing anything.
2018-01-02T05:41:34Z aeth: Interestingly, SBCL apparently keeps getting more efficient.
2018-01-02T05:41:47Z aeth: There was a time when SBCL was comparable to Emacs afaik.
2018-01-02T05:42:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find that system reponsiveness is more affected by ram usage than cpu usage these days
2018-01-02T05:42:15Z p_l: aeth: yeah, but with SBCL I see that I'm getting my money's worth :D
2018-01-02T05:42:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. if my desktop starts feeling laggy, I close all my tabs and everything is snappy again :)
2018-01-02T05:42:28Z p_l: meanwhile Slack will happily gobble tons of RAM
2018-01-02T05:42:38Z aeth: freshly started up (and my OS is not on a recent SBCL!) 49 MB in a terminal, 51 MB in SLIME
2018-01-02T05:43:22Z aeth: roswell's recent slime+sbcl is... 95?
2018-01-02T05:43:30Z aeth: well, something's up there
2018-01-02T05:43:39Z p_l: top three apps on my system: Chrome using 4GB (surprisingly little, I suspect shenanigans), VMware using 2GB (for a 2GB VM, expected) ... Slack = 1.2GB :|
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2018-01-02T05:45:30Z parjanya: if I create a stream with (process-output (run-program "/usr/bin/ls" '() :output :stream)) , how can I read it?
2018-01-02T05:45:44Z aeth: Basically the only thing that uses unjustified amounts of RAM are web browsers or things that use web browsers like Electron apps
2018-01-02T05:46:17Z aeth: The good news is this: If people can tolerate Electron adding 1 GB per Electron app, they can probably tolerate SBCL adding 100 MB per CL app.
2018-01-02T05:46:41Z p_l: aeth: and then there applications that take "electron" and put "even more unjustified resource usage", like Slack
2018-01-02T05:47:14Z aeth: If anyone has (64-bit) Electron, it would be interesting to see how much RAM a hello world takes. It would probably take too long for me to download just to test that.
2018-01-02T05:48:15Z aeth: And it would be interesting to compare this to the worst case of a graphical CL hello world app, which is probably going to be 90-120 MB counting the base CL
2018-01-02T05:48:39Z aeth: s/CL hello world/SBCL hello world/
2018-01-02T05:48:42Z aeth: SBCL probably uses the most RAM.
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2018-01-02T05:50:12Z aeth: The CL one is probably going to be 3x-5x C, though.
2018-01-02T05:53:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But slack has custom emojis...
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2018-01-02T07:11:44Z eviltofu: If I want to make a GUI app in common-lisp that runs under macOS, what should I use?
2018-01-02T07:12:29Z pjb: eviltofu: the easiest is to use Clozure CL (ccl) and its Objective-C bridge.
2018-01-02T07:12:52Z pjb: You can add my Objective-CL reader macros if you want to have an Objective-C -like syntax.
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2018-01-02T07:13:10Z pjb: you can also get it from the AppStore (Clozure CL.app).
2018-01-02T07:13:41Z eviltofu: ok thanks! What about CLIM?
2018-01-02T07:14:02Z jackdaniel: it does work only with Xserver at the moment
2018-01-02T07:14:17Z jackdaniel: so it is certainly possible to run it on macos, but it doesn't have this "native" feel
2018-01-02T07:14:19Z pjb: If you don't want to make a Cocoa Application, then you can use any implementation with CLIM.
2018-01-02T07:14:19Z pjb: There's X11.app on macOS.
2018-01-02T07:14:26Z eviltofu: I'm just putting around exploring CL
2018-01-02T07:14:38Z eviltofu: ok thanks
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2018-01-02T07:25:04Z aeth: eviltofu: There's also another kind of graphical application that's possible, too. e.g. https://github.com/vydd/sketch#sketch
2018-01-02T07:25:21Z aeth: These other things all use OpenGL, so you're definitely not going to get a native feel.
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2018-01-02T07:29:18Z aeth: Some people have built entire GUIs on top of OpenGL, though, e.g. the Blender 3D modeling application.
2018-01-02T07:30:26Z aeth: Also McCLIM used to have an OpenGL backend, but it was removed here, probably because it was over a decade out of date. https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/commit/d1bc1e222b36adffa5a76e4c664d1b365d2144e4#diff-b81146e6af95bf6e22cf57459890216f
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2018-01-02T07:31:01Z eviltofu: Sketch is interesting, I was looking at Processing a few weeks back for some coding fun!
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2018-01-02T07:58:57Z whoman: aeth, whoa.  GL CLIM is a nice thought
2018-01-02T07:59:31Z aeth: GL CLIM would run on every platform.
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2018-01-02T08:02:06Z jdz: What's this magic GL you're talking about is?
2018-01-02T08:02:44Z aeth: jdz: OpenGL, i.e. render 2D things using that 3D graphics API.
2018-01-02T08:03:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: eviltofu: qtools is also a fairly good way to write gui applications for osx
2018-01-02T08:03:25Z jdz: Which OpenGL?  On which platform is that specific OpenGL supported, and FFI available for CL?
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2018-01-02T08:04:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: sketch uses OpenGL 3.3
2018-01-02T08:04:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Looks like it runs on all the major implementations
2018-01-02T08:04:41Z jdz: I bet OpenGL will be obsolete soon enough, with different vendors moving in different directions: MicroSoft -> DirectX, Apple -> Metal, Others -> Vulkan.
2018-01-02T08:05:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have prototype-quality objective-c/cffi interaction going on locallly
2018-01-02T08:06:05Z earl-ducaine: Clutter is a good example of modern, full feature graphic toolkit built on top of open GL.
2018-01-02T08:06:29Z jdz: It sure is an example, not sure about the "good" part.
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2018-01-02T08:06:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: What are the reader macros that ccl uses for objective-c?
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2018-01-02T08:07:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of recall #[] and #_ and a couple others, but it's been a while
2018-01-02T08:07:45Z jdz: It may make sense to use Clutter instead of OpenGL directly.
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2018-01-02T08:08:55Z aeth: jdz: OpenGL will be supported for a long time
2018-01-02T08:08:57Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: ccl doesn't define any objective-c specific reader macro; they're reader macros used for the FFI in general.  I wrote my own Objective-CL reader macros to provide the Objective-C syntax to CL.
2018-01-02T08:09:19Z whoman: jdz, webgl, opengl es, opengl .. there is an overlap
2018-01-02T08:11:00Z Shinmera: jdz: OpenGL isn't going anywhere and Vulkan isn't replacing it.
2018-01-02T08:11:16Z jdz: OK.
2018-01-02T08:11:21Z Shinmera: If anything, OpenGL has been gaining massive traction in recent years thanks to the web and mobile tech
2018-01-02T08:11:35Z jdz: Thanks to OpenGL ES.
2018-01-02T08:12:10Z whoman: clutter looks interesting, seems dead
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2018-01-02T08:12:16Z jdz: Huh?
2018-01-02T08:12:30Z jdz: GNOME is built on top of it.
2018-01-02T08:12:33Z knobo: Is there a way to get the argument list for a function?
2018-01-02T08:13:22Z aeth: The point of using OpenGL would be portable, like Blender.
2018-01-02T08:13:26Z whoman: dead might be a wrong word. solid? my house is built on top of solid rock
2018-01-02T08:13:28Z earl-ducaine: Wing 3d is an interesting 3d modeler.  GUI and canvas are both implemented in open GL.
2018-01-02T08:13:34Z earl-ducaine: What's interersting from a CL perspective is that it's a clone of Nendo which is a stripped down version of Mirai, which is what Symbolics' S-World suite eventually became after being purchased by Nichimen.
2018-01-02T08:13:47Z whoman: touch clim is an interest to me as well
2018-01-02T08:13:59Z jdz: earl-ducaine: it's also interesting that it is written in Erlang.
2018-01-02T08:14:07Z whoman: hehe and wr.. ea
2018-01-02T08:14:23Z Shinmera: knobo: Check the trivial-arguments lib
2018-01-02T08:14:24Z whoman: the code is scary, though.
2018-01-02T08:16:11Z knobo: Shinmera: thank you
2018-01-02T08:17:26Z jdz: Also relevant to this discussion: http://blog.johnnovak.net/2016/05/29/cross-platform-gui-trainwreck-2016-edition/
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2018-01-02T08:20:31Z whoman: html5/css is mucho cross platformo
2018-01-02T08:20:51Z aeth: It's also the most RAM-intensive way to make a GUI
2018-01-02T08:21:11Z aeth: That's... actually the prior topic here.
2018-01-02T08:21:47Z aeth: 1+ GB RAM. An SBCL solution would be 10% that. Other CLs even less.
2018-01-02T08:21:48Z whoman: yeah =( i only have 2gb so i am doing opengl instead of web.
2018-01-02T08:22:05Z whoman: sorry or text ui*
2018-01-02T08:22:32Z whoman: including mcclim, x11, freetype etc ?
2018-01-02T08:22:39Z whoman: (ram usage)
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2018-01-02T08:25:36Z whoman: web does not take too much ram on mobile
2018-01-02T08:25:58Z aeth: whoman: I think it would be hard to get a GUI + SBCL above 150 MB RAM.
2018-01-02T08:27:10Z whoman: cool
2018-01-02T08:28:08Z aeth: For a hello world, I mean.
2018-01-02T08:28:19Z aeth: Obviously the GUI app could be a virtual machine and take up gigs of RAM or whatever.
2018-01-02T08:29:03Z whoman: yeah ~ but the layers down to the OS, including fonts and all that
2018-01-02T08:29:30Z whoman: and X11 etc. like if one were to "tree-shake" a snapshot of hello world gui
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2018-01-02T08:29:44Z jackdaniel: if you are concerned about ram usage, you should try CCL
2018-01-02T08:30:00Z jackdaniel: if that's not enough, you should try ECL
2018-01-02T08:31:16Z whoman is only concerned about HDD lag from swap for general desktop useage. dev tools should be hyperspeed negative latency 
2018-01-02T08:33:09Z aeth: jackdaniel: I'm using SBCL as a worst case example of RAM usage.
2018-01-02T08:33:38Z aeth: I personally don't care as long as it's < 100 MB.
2018-01-02T08:33:50Z aeth: And it is.
2018-01-02T08:34:33Z aeth: In the world where Electron apps are commonplace, even SBCL is absolutely lightweight in RAM.
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2018-01-02T08:38:44Z jackdaniel: for some of thigns I try SBCL heaps blows above 8GB while CCL fits nicely in 2GB (during compilation), so that's a valid concern for me
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2018-01-02T08:45:38Z loke: jdz: That article dismissed GTK for adding 20 MB to the code size. That's a bit silly, IMHO
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2018-01-02T08:46:01Z loke: His requirements are not only that he wants to graw graphics and stuff, he also wants it really small.
2018-01-02T08:47:15Z jackdaniel: I agree that this is silly
2018-01-02T08:48:58Z aeth: jackdaniel: But, on the other hand, it's a lot easier to avoid allocation in SBCL through profiling and disassembly, at least ime.
2018-01-02T08:49:14Z aeth: When I want to write some large thing that doesn't allocate, I'm only sure that it doesn't allocate in SBCL.
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2018-01-02T08:50:23Z jdz: loke: Yes, seems like people (male?) are obsessed with size.
2018-01-02T08:50:38Z jdz: Or maybe just measuring "things".
2018-01-02T08:50:58Z jackdaniel: and the whole article seems to be written in purpose to justify creating yet another toolkit (this time in NIM), what is even more silly. If he feels he want to make one, then he should do it, but making excuses is not something I'm going to appreciate
2018-01-02T08:51:18Z loke: Right
2018-01-02T08:51:36Z beach: I think there is a serious lack of back-of-envelope calculations.  Instead, what I observe is typical Kahneman stuff; the fast brain module is lousy with math, and the slow module is lazy so it believes the fast one.
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2018-01-02T08:54:53Z jdz: Even if the conclusion is not useful the article still includes more data points than "Blender uses OpenGL for GUI".
2018-01-02T08:55:37Z aeth: jdz: IRC isn't a good medium for data
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2018-01-02T08:55:41Z jdz: Text/font rendering is very important for me.
2018-01-02T08:56:25Z jdz: OpenGL has nothing for text rendering, as far as I know.
2018-01-02T08:56:43Z aeth: jdz: The section on Blender seems very favorable to me
2018-01-02T08:57:20Z aeth: jdz: Using OpenGL means, afaik, consistent font rendering on all platforms that consistently looks different from what every other application does. But, yes, you'd have to write it yourself or use a library.
2018-01-02T08:57:23Z jackdaniel: beach: on the other hand (regarding memory use) I totally get why someone could want to have small memory footprint *even if he knows* that memory is cheap. If you may have exactly same functionality in 10KB vs 10MB (given that both are coded reasonably well), the former solution is more elegant by some metrics
2018-01-02T08:58:20Z aeth: jdz: There are some interesting ways to render fonts using 3D APIs these days.
2018-01-02T08:58:21Z jackdaniel: so this argument shifts from practical point of view int aesthetic one
2018-01-02T08:58:23Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure, but that elegance comes at a cost.  And I rarely see that cost evaluated against the gain in memory.
2018-01-02T08:59:05Z beach: jackdaniel: Plus, someone who is obsessed with memory size probably makes other elegance compromises instead.
2018-01-02T08:59:59Z aeth: Focusing on a small amount of memory makes perfect sense for a server (especially a home server, which should be quiet and low-power). It's probably not as important for graphical applications since that server will be running without X.
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2018-01-02T09:00:11Z jackdaniel: right, that's why I agree that saying that "it is 20MB, so it's bad" is a silly argument, yet I acknowledge that sometimes this argument may be very valid one (and can't be debunked with saying, that someone forgot to do his math, or was lazy)
2018-01-02T09:00:45Z jackdaniel: not in this case though
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2018-01-02T09:01:50Z aeth: Personally, I'm a bit selfish. I usually am very wasteful of RAM when I program, but I don't like other applications using it up (less RAM for me!)
2018-01-02T09:01:59Z aeth: I wonder if anyone else is like that.
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2018-01-02T09:02:09Z loke: By looking at the Nom web site, it seems to me that the users have similar values as the Go crowd.
2018-01-02T09:02:23Z loke: Somehow they think that statically linked binaries is a great thing.
2018-01-02T09:02:43Z loke: (I'm old enough to remember Unixes without dynamic linking support at all, and it was not fun)
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2018-01-02T09:04:45Z aeth: loke: A potential counterargument: we have a lot more space now. Even 1 TB SSDs are very affordable.
2018-01-02T09:06:04Z jackdaniel: dynamic linking goes beyond that - updating library requires updating only one shared object
2018-01-02T09:06:12Z jackdaniel: if there is no dynamic linking, you have to recompile each module
2018-01-02T09:06:57Z jackdaniel: so you have to be more aware of your software dependency tree
2018-01-02T09:07:15Z aeth: jackdaniel: There are probably tools to do that now, though
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2018-01-02T09:08:13Z jackdaniel: sure, did you ever use gentoo? if you don't have dynamic linking it gets even more messy
2018-01-02T09:09:38Z aeth: I think the future is probably going to be sandboxing all over the place, which could be the death of dynamic linking.
2018-01-02T09:09:56Z beach: jackdaniel: It is not a matter of debunking, but of getting the full picture.  I am perfectly happy to see an argument such as "yes, it is going to take me a year of full-time work to save a small amount of memory, but I think it will be a lot of fun to try", instead of seeing just half the argument.
2018-01-02T09:10:53Z beach: jackdaniel: I would hate for people to tell me what to put work into, so I certainly do not try to tell others what they would be doing.
2018-01-02T09:11:12Z beach: SHOULD be doing, rather.
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2018-01-02T09:12:17Z jackdaniel: OK, I get it better now, yet sometimes it's not very obvious from the context for me (probably fault in my understanding)
2018-01-02T09:17:13Z beach: Nah, probably a result of the medium (IRC) that requires me to be brief.
2018-01-02T09:20:27Z loke: aeth: I'm just now trying to use Nixos, which is essentially that
2018-01-02T09:20:42Z loke: aeth: Let me tell you, they are doing something interesting, but man is the approach flawed.
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2018-01-02T09:44:46Z p_l: whoman: Web is also probably the worst stack to make GUI in, no matter the platform
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2018-01-02T09:48:07Z loke: p_l: I was about to counter with some worse toolkits... However... Now that I think about it, I do think you're right.
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2018-01-02T09:49:18Z aeth: loke: I agree.
2018-01-02T09:49:32Z aeth: With both of your recent statements, actually.
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2018-01-02T09:51:37Z loke: :-)
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2018-01-02T11:20:48Z phoe: I have a class whose slot contains a STATIC-VECTOR. If I understand this correctly, I can use TRIVIAL-GARBAGE:FINALIZE that closes over this static vector to make this memory reclaimable by the garbage collector, like, (let ((vector (static-vector instance))) (lambda () (free-static-vector vector))). Do I understand it right?
2018-01-02T11:21:41Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-01-02T11:21:58Z Shinmera: As long as you don't close over the thing you're finalizing.
2018-01-02T11:22:17Z Shinmera: Because then you'd create an indefinite extent reference and prevent it from being GCd.
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2018-01-02T11:22:55Z phoe: Shinmera: exactly, (lambda () (free-static-vector (static-vector instance))) would be a mistake.
2018-01-02T11:23:28Z phoe: Thanks.
2018-01-02T11:23:54Z Shinmera: What I like to do is this kind of scheme: https://github.com/Shirakumo/cl-mixed/blob/master/c-object.lisp
2018-01-02T11:24:41Z Shinmera: Or, well, that doesn't clearly illustrate it
2018-01-02T11:24:56Z phoe: I get the general idea.
2018-01-02T11:25:13Z phoe: CL-LZMA will get a pretty big update, including an API change that makes use of static vectors.
2018-01-02T11:25:15Z Shinmera: Point being a generic function that returns a closure that "knows" how to finalise that object's resources.
2018-01-02T11:25:55Z phoe: Since right now it's 95% CL overhead coming from coercing vectors from (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) to T and the other way around
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2018-01-02T12:31:30Z osune_: I have (soon) a long running CL application. I want to execute a function with arguments at a specific date and time. This date can be even years in the future. There will be many dates when this function should execute, with different arguments. I feel uncomfortable to use a normal timer for such use case. A workaround would be to use CRON and let it talk to the the CL App via sockets which can be selected. But what are possible
2018-01-02T12:31:31Z osune_: solutions inside of CL ?
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2018-01-02T12:32:37Z jdz: Have a thread that sleeps most of the time, or have a main loop that periodically checks the schedule.
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2018-01-02T12:33:24Z jdz: There might be platform-specific ways to also schedule a signal (alert) for the process.
2018-01-02T12:34:05Z Shinmera: Just sleep like half of the time you need to the next event until you're within a certain range of acceptability.
2018-01-02T12:34:12Z Shinmera: As in, do that in a loop
2018-01-02T12:34:32Z osune_: jdz: my problem with the "check shedule periodically"  approach would be what my "Nyquist Frequncy" for sampling would be. But platform specific solutions are ok
2018-01-02T12:34:44Z osune_: *frequency
2018-01-02T12:34:54Z Shinmera: (loop for diff = (- (get-universal-time) target-time) until (< diff 60) do (sleep (/ diff 2))
2018-01-02T12:37:25Z osune_: Shinmera: thx, the easiest solutions seem always to escape my mind
2018-01-02T12:38:55Z jdz: osune_: there's the alarm() function if you're on a Posix system.
2018-01-02T12:39:08Z phoe: osune_: there exist even simpler solution
2018-01-02T12:39:24Z osune_: I'm listening ?
2018-01-02T12:39:28Z tfb: osune_: what's the problem with just checking when the next event is and then sleeping until then?  The repeatedly-wake-and-sleep thing seems like ... hard work.
2018-01-02T12:39:53Z osune_: tfb: new events can be sheduled any time for any time in the future
2018-01-02T12:40:20Z jdz: Also let's not forget that systems may sleep (especially if running on a laptop).
2018-01-02T12:40:38Z phoe: osune_: there was a thing with minion where you could ask him to remind you to do something in 140380 seconds or something (:
2018-01-02T12:40:43Z phoe: but I forgot the syntax right now
2018-01-02T12:40:48Z jdz: And time may be running faster or slower depending on different factors.
2018-01-02T12:41:30Z tfb: osune_: every time the schedule changes you need to wake the sleeping thread in any case (same if the whole system is asleep or is restarted which it will be since you're talking about years)
2018-01-02T12:43:00Z osune_: phoe: I assume I should look at the code for minion. Or are you suggesting I should make requests against minion via IRC ? ;)
2018-01-02T12:43:20Z Shinmera: Depending on how many events you have you can just launch a thread for each
2018-01-02T12:43:30Z phoe: osune_: via IRC, exactly (:
2018-01-02T12:43:32Z Shinmera: Alternatively you can just sleep for a second in a thread and then check all events.
2018-01-02T12:43:45Z Shinmera: phoe: Colleen could do that too but I removed it
2018-01-02T12:43:52Z Shinmera: cause it wasn't used
2018-01-02T12:43:54Z osune_: Shinmera: its a pet project, but lets assume there are "millions"
2018-01-02T12:44:17Z osune_: phoe: sounds like a solid approach :)
2018-01-02T12:44:28Z Shinmera: osune_: Then just loop sleep a second and check each event, with events sorted by target time to short-circuit.
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2018-01-02T12:44:51Z jdz: osune_: just have a sorted sequence of times, and check the head every second.
2018-01-02T12:45:06Z jdz: Oh, what Shinmera said.
2018-01-02T12:45:06Z Xach: When I had the same problem I made a heap data structure and slept until the next minimum item.
2018-01-02T12:45:15Z Xach: That wound up in SBCL as its SB-TIMER facility.
2018-01-02T12:45:22Z osune_: Shinmera: jdz: yep that was in the back of my head to.
2018-01-02T12:45:35Z osune_: *too
2018-01-02T12:45:59Z Xach: ooops, i guess it's not SB-TIMER.
2018-01-02T12:46:02Z Xach: It's SB-EXT:TIMER
2018-01-02T12:47:03Z osune_: thx Xach I'll take a look
2018-01-02T12:49:41Z osune_: phoe: minion doesn't have the command anymore, looking at the help-text in this repository https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/c39f7e793ef96c3a0715413af404a16faf4f47f8/minion/minion.lisp#L340
2018-01-02T12:50:07Z phoe: osune_: ow. Well then, obviously you need to write your own IRC bot in order for your thread to be able to sleep. ;)
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2018-01-02T12:50:57Z osune_: that would be another point on my bucketlist I could check ;)
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2018-01-02T12:51:10Z osune_: thx everyone for your suggestions and help
2018-01-02T12:51:58Z jdz: Apparently SBCL uses setitimer, which is obsolete already...
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2018-01-02T12:57:03Z osune_: jdz: it's posix.1-2001. Even if posix.1-2008 supersedes it, it seems to be the way to go for now
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2018-01-02T12:59:25Z jdz: osune_: my man page says «Applications should  use  the  timer_gettime()  and  timer_settime()  functions  instead  of  the  obsolescent getitimer() and setitimer() functions, respectively.», POSIX.1-2008.
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2018-01-02T13:01:12Z osune_: jdz: mine says basically the same. But as the kernel 'never' brakes userspace this is a bit ugly but somewhat a non-issue, no?
2018-01-02T13:01:31Z jdz: This has nothing to do with kernel (or so it seems to me).
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2018-01-02T13:04:13Z phoe: I have a function which accepts a stream as a parameter. What is the canonical way of checking if this stream outputs (unsigned-byte 8)s?
2018-01-02T13:04:39Z jdz: Xach: nice, the code in SBCL is from 2005.  Time flies...
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2018-01-02T13:04:56Z phoe: (equal (stream-element-type stream) '(unsigned-byte 8))?
2018-01-02T13:05:03Z phoe: or subtypep?
2018-01-02T13:05:07Z phoe: or something completely different?
2018-01-02T13:05:36Z osune_: I would assume that the interface is bound to the kernel, as these are systemcalls which expose timer functionality of the kernel to the user. So deprication warnings for posix interfaces are ugly. But apart from that i don't see a problem using sb-ext:timer?
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2018-01-02T13:07:48Z jdz: I was not complaining or pointing at a problem, more like expressing my puzzlement.
2018-01-02T13:08:04Z osune_: ah got it .
2018-01-02T13:08:48Z phoe: oldie but goldie
2018-01-02T13:09:02Z jdz: I knew about alert(), then just learned about {set,get}itimer, and upon learning about them they got immediately deprecated.
2018-01-02T13:09:19Z osune_: unfortunate
2018-01-02T13:09:52Z jdz: Nah, I just rear UNIX-HATERS Handbook recently, minor things like this only amuse me.
2018-01-02T13:10:03Z osune_: I worked with the timerfd interface (in C) which was very nice to use
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2018-01-02T13:24:33Z p_l: osune_: POSIX doesn't cover any syscalls
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2018-01-02T13:31:22Z osune_: p_l: you are right POSIX are not syscalls. But they work on system calls. And even the manpage is ambiguous about the usage of the term as it says "These  system  calls  provide  access  to interval timers"
2018-01-02T13:32:09Z p_l: osune_: syscall is not equall to syscall, though. Normally-callable functions count as system calls for purposes of POSIX
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2018-01-02T13:32:36Z p_l: in fact, on most recent Unices, timer-related syscalls are actually library calls often to kernel-managed space
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2018-01-02T13:39:28Z osune_: p_l: aye. I used the term "systemcall" incorrect. What I wanted to say is: It won't break with the next kernel update nor will the interface vanish soon. I assume I used it, as the manpage for setitimer missuses the term and the setitimer interface depends on the kernel timer facility. Thanks for the correction though and the added information about recent timer-related calls.
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2018-01-02T13:47:01Z Shinmera: |3b|: If you could review https://github.com/3b/3bmd/pull/36 I'd appreciate it a lot
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2018-01-02T13:48:03Z osune_: p_l: just to a be borderline nitpicking: `man 2 syscalls` lists setitimer as syscall  http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/syscalls.2.html ;)
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2018-01-02T13:51:39Z osune_: and I realized I did not write a real sentence. sorry
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2018-01-02T14:00:58Z p_l: osune_: is it linux manpage, or POSIX manpage?
2018-01-02T14:01:02Z p_l: there's a difference ;)
2018-01-02T14:01:09Z p_l: like POSIX manpages not having section 2
2018-01-02T14:02:07Z osune_: p_l: man 2 setitimer and man 2 syscalls ; so just linux manpages
2018-01-02T14:04:06Z jdz: Oh, I was reading POSIX manpages.
2018-01-02T14:04:36Z p_l: osune_: linux ones will obviously talk about actual Linux behaviour
2018-01-02T14:05:34Z osune_: getitimer(3p) (which is refered to from setitimer(3p) doesn't use the word "syscall / system call". So of course I don't cite it. It would undermine my argument ;)
2018-01-02T14:07:02Z Xach: jdz: I wrote it even longer ago - https://www.xach.com/lisp/timer/doc.html says 2003
2018-01-02T14:07:03Z osune_: jdz: doesn't matter, even setitimer(2) says it's deprecated so you are good or something like that :)
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2018-01-02T14:21:45Z jdz: Xach: the project is not linked from https://www.xach.com/lisp/ (probably intentionally; just letting you know).
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2018-01-02T14:51:13Z sigjuice: anyone know offhand approximately how much disk space it would be if I downloaded all quicklisp releases for offline use? Thanks!
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2018-01-02T14:57:50Z Xach: sigjuice: unpacked it's about 1.3GB
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2018-01-02T14:58:27Z sigjuice: thanks Xach!
2018-01-02T14:58:55Z Xach: sigjuice: to install it all, you can use ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-releases (dist "quicklisp")))
2018-01-02T14:59:43Z makomo_ is now known as makomo
2018-01-02T15:01:39Z makomo: Xach: what kind of syntax is that? does it evaluate the form as if it was in the package ql-dist?
2018-01-02T15:02:01Z Xach: makomo: yes. it's sbcl-specific (and some others had it before)
2018-01-02T15:02:02Z random-nick: iirc it's a SBCL extension
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2018-01-02T15:02:13Z Xach: it works in at least allegro cl
2018-01-02T15:02:20Z makomo: ah, ok
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2018-01-02T15:03:20Z random-nick: makomo: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Reader-Extensions
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2018-01-02T15:08:46Z pfdietz: It's a nice extension.
2018-01-02T15:09:45Z Xach: very handy interactively
2018-01-02T15:09:50Z Xach: not so nice in source files :(
2018-01-02T15:10:07Z Xach: allegroserve uses foo:: a few places and it really puts a crimp in porting to clozure cl.
2018-01-02T15:10:16Z Xach wonders how much work foo:: would be in clozure cl
2018-01-02T15:10:48Z Xach: mfiano: fwiw http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-02/failure-report/gamebox-grids.html#gamebox-grids
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2018-01-02T15:13:02Z mfiano: Xach: Please remove that library from Quicklisp. It has no users and the math is wrong on closer inspection.
2018-01-02T15:13:07Z Xach: ok
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2018-01-02T15:15:20Z mfiano: Thanks. I'll have to rewrite it someday when I have need for it again
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2018-01-02T15:41:52Z phoe: Heck yeah, I fixed CL-LZMA.
2018-01-02T15:42:06Z phoe: Its decompression should be 40000% faster now.
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2018-01-02T15:42:27Z Shinmera: What was it doing before? SLEEP?
2018-01-02T15:42:36Z Shinmera: Wait for the bits to align?
2018-01-02T15:43:23Z phoe: Shinmera: no, COERCE'ing arrays from (unsigned-byte 8) to T and then from T to (unsigned-byte 8).
2018-01-02T15:43:52Z phoe: So working on 600kB worth of tiny archives consed up about half a gigabyte of memory in total.
2018-01-02T15:44:16Z phoe: It's easy to achieve 40000% speedups, you just need to fuck up *really* bad in the first place.
2018-01-02T15:45:02Z phoe: Or, to be more specific, coercing raw CFFI memory into simple-vector into (vector (unsigned-byte 8)).
2018-01-02T15:45:11Z Shinmera: Reminds me of the stories of people intentionally making products slower so that they had an insurance on future releases being faster.
2018-01-02T15:45:35Z phoe: I'll keep this in mind.
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2018-01-02T15:46:26Z Shinmera: Other ways to provide job (and product) insurance: write very obscure code that only you can read, or add in details that nobody but you will notice
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2018-01-02T15:47:11Z phoe: > write very obscure code that only you can read
2018-01-02T15:47:13Z phoe: do you mean Lisp?
2018-01-02T15:47:25Z Shinmera: No I mean Java
2018-01-02T15:47:54Z phoe: Hm. I write Java for a living.
2018-01-02T15:47:57Z phoe: I must consider this.
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2018-01-02T15:48:32Z phoe: Unrelated: I just found a way to run threaded ECL on my Android phone, via termux. I'll blogpost about it later today.
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2018-01-02T16:18:01Z whoman: p_l, "worst" , "best", well you know
2018-01-02T16:19:16Z whoman: as for "stacks" well it doesnt matter. CSS and html5 are nonprogramming ways to make a lot of things. there are so many teams and individuals and groups and standards and companies and gov'ts and so on that is behind "web tech".
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2018-01-02T16:19:52Z whoman: i dont think one dude has enough capacity or perspective or time or energy for anything made by many people. crowd wins
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2018-01-02T16:21:58Z TMA: whoman: there are cases that can prove you wrong.
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2018-01-02T16:22:50Z TMA: whoman: Fabrice Bellard comes to mind...
2018-01-02T16:24:27Z beach: I recall a paper by Xof, explaining good and bad ways of using reader conditionals.  Does anyone remember where to find it?
2018-01-02T16:25:01Z whoman: TMA, is that a person's name... ? i cant imagine how that would relate =)
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2018-01-02T16:25:28Z whoman: web tech is not an "invention" - its layers and layers of progressive changes and things from the whole world
2018-01-02T16:25:46Z beach: Never mind, found it: http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/features.pdf
2018-01-02T16:25:51Z whoman: like public transpotation. we can blame cars or roads or whatever but yeah we still got to get around
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2018-01-02T16:27:07Z LexLeoGryfon: casual symposyim of lisp programmers https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1221903074
2018-01-02T16:27:14Z TMA: whoman: I probably misunderstood your point then
2018-01-02T16:27:34Z beach: LexLeoGryfon: Go away!
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2018-01-02T16:30:06Z Xof: beach: you found it before I did!
2018-01-02T16:30:14Z beach: Heh!
2018-01-02T16:31:35Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2018-01-02T16:31:39Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*bf651efe@*.191.101.30.254 *!5d5bc20d@*.194.13 harish__!*@* *!~ircap@*.ono.com
2018-01-02T16:31:42Z Xach has set mode -bb *!b23ef15f@*.241.95 *!*Akwok@*.adsl2.static.versatel.nl
2018-01-02T16:31:48Z whoman: o_o
2018-01-02T16:31:51Z Xach has set mode +b *!*lex888888@93.125.104.*
2018-01-02T16:31:54Z LexLeoGryfon [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (LexLeoGryfon)
2018-01-02T16:31:59Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2018-01-02T16:32:44Z whoman: casual eh . does he get $$ for that ? [not clicking, assuming its pr0n]
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2018-01-02T16:34:15Z Xach: the person is trying to disrupt the global productivity of lispers. let us not help them succeed by discussing it further!
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2018-01-02T16:35:18Z p_l: Xach: ircap might be worthwhile to note somewhere, shut down a lot of skiddie bots
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2018-01-02T16:40:17Z phoe: Xach: thank you.
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2018-01-02T18:18:20Z phoe: Is there a CFFI IRC channel?
2018-01-02T18:18:38Z phoe: Any IRC place where its developers/maintainers hang out?
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2018-01-02T18:25:00Z phoe: Okay. Let's go.
2018-01-02T18:25:00Z phoe: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1740800
2018-01-02T18:25:12Z phoe: "(I don't think it's easy to portably test with specialized arrays because not all Lisps support the same kind of specialized arrays.)"
2018-01-02T18:26:11Z phoe: Like, is it impossible to portably create a vector whose actual element type is an implementation-independent value that is not T?
2018-01-02T18:26:35Z phoe: Or rather, is it valid for an implementation to only ever support arrays of actual element type T?
2018-01-02T18:27:26Z phoe: I think not.
2018-01-02T18:27:28Z phoe: clhs 15.1.2.2
2018-01-02T18:27:28Z specbot: Required Kinds of Specialized Arrays: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_abb.htm
2018-01-02T18:29:20Z Bike: yeah, you need bit and character and stuff.
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2018-01-02T18:30:57Z phoe: I only have bits and strings.
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2018-01-02T18:31:36Z phoe: In CFFI, I have numbers. And converting codes to chars is implementation-dependent.
2018-01-02T18:31:55Z phoe: So I might better do it with bits.
2018-01-02T18:32:13Z Bike: honestly i would expect foreign-array-to-lisp to just take an element-type argument that defaults to t
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2018-01-02T18:32:38Z Bike: you might want a char[] to become an (array (unsigned-byte 8)) sometimes, but an (array t) other times, you know?
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2018-01-02T18:33:51Z phoe: yes, that's why he suggested (foreign-array-to-lisp pointer array-type &rest make-array-arguments)
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2018-01-02T18:34:16Z phoe: I already have written working tests for displaced and adjustable arrays
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2018-01-02T18:36:19Z phoe: Now... I need functions to convert between numbers and bitarrays.
2018-01-02T18:37:28Z phoe: Xach: thanks, http://lisptips.com/post/44261316742/how-do-i-convert-an-integer-to-a-list-of-bits
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2018-01-02T18:39:04Z phoe: But wait a second.
2018-01-02T18:39:13Z phoe: On the Lisp side, sure thing, I can create a bit array.
2018-01-02T18:39:32Z phoe: But that's when CFFI will freak out because it might not expect bits.
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2018-01-02T18:42:19Z phoe: this is ugly
2018-01-02T18:42:20Z phoe: but works
2018-01-02T18:42:26Z phoe: (with-foreign-array (ptr #(1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0) '(:array :int32 8)) (foreign-array-to-lisp ptr '(:array :int32 8) :element-type 'bit))
2018-01-02T18:42:42Z rpg: I feel like this should be a FAQ, but I'm not finding it -- is there an easy way to print an s-expression without package qualifiers, no matter what the value of *package* is and what the home packages of the symbols are ?
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2018-01-02T18:44:15Z phoe: rpg: #'PRINC
2018-01-02T18:44:18Z Bike: usually i'd just bind *package* to the keyword package
2018-01-02T18:44:25Z Bike: er, sorry, "without", nevermind
2018-01-02T18:44:57Z rpg: phoe: PRINC isn't doing it for me.
2018-01-02T18:45:12Z phoe: you want all the other symbols printed with ~S, huh?
2018-01-02T18:45:18Z phoe: s/symbols/things/
2018-01-02T18:45:27Z phoe: hmmm. let me think for a moment.
2018-01-02T18:45:48Z rpg: actually, looking at this, the s-expression is entirely made up of symbols, but probably that'
2018-01-02T18:45:52Z rpg: s not a safe assumption
2018-01-02T18:46:02Z phoe: What I did once, was:
2018-01-02T18:46:22Z phoe: I copied the whole expression via COPY-TREE, then destructively traversed the copy to replace all symbols with gensyms of the same name.
2018-01-02T18:46:30Z phoe: And then I bound *PRINT-GENSYM* and printed.
2018-01-02T18:46:34Z phoe: clhs *print-gensym*
2018-01-02T18:46:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_gen.htm
2018-01-02T18:46:57Z rpg: phoe: I guess we do that, but avoid NIL, right?
2018-01-02T18:47:07Z phoe: rpg: why?
2018-01-02T18:47:16Z rpg: phoe: I guess it's ok....
2018-01-02T18:47:18Z phoe: #:NIL will get printed as NIL anyway
2018-01-02T18:47:43Z phoe: since NIL might get printed as CL:NIL if you are in some crazy package
2018-01-02T18:47:55Z phoe: so I guess it's even slightly safer to gensym it.
2018-01-02T18:48:13Z rpg: phoe: Are you sure you did this with GENSYM instead of MAKE-SYMBOL?
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2018-01-02T18:49:09Z phoe: rpg: MAKE-SYMBOL, correct
2018-01-02T18:49:14Z phoe: (make-symbol (symbol-name x))
2018-01-02T18:49:57Z Bike: there's actually a copy-symbol function
2018-01-02T18:49:58Z rpg: that makes sense.  Question: why do (make-symbol (symbol-name x)) instead of just collecting SYMBOL-NAME (and printing strings w/o quotes)?
2018-01-02T18:50:01Z Bike: you could be the first one to use it!
2018-01-02T18:50:13Z phoe: Bike: woah
2018-01-02T18:50:27Z phoe: rpg: printing strings without quotes? how?
2018-01-02T18:50:28Z rpg: Bike: Thanks!
2018-01-02T18:51:07Z phoe: PRINT will print them with quotes, and if you could print items with ~A selectively to print strings without quotes, then you would be able to print symbols without package prefixes.
2018-01-02T18:51:30Z phoe: Bike: the standard keeps on surprising
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2018-01-02T18:58:16Z rpg: phoe: This seems to work
2018-01-02T18:58:17Z rpg: https://pastebin.com/Aj1SsqZb
2018-01-02T18:58:43Z rpg: Kind of disgusting, IMO, but...
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2018-01-02T19:04:22Z phoe: rpg: similar to what I did.
2018-01-02T19:04:45Z phoe: Could I ask for a code review? I'm submitting a PR to CFFI that makes it possible to return specialized arrays from FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP. https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/128
2018-01-02T19:06:31Z Bike: drop the "holy standard" thing
2018-01-02T19:06:56Z Bike: and i guess you could put in a compiler macro on foreign-array-to-lisp to avoid apply, but it's probably not super important
2018-01-02T19:06:58Z rpg: Bike: ?
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2018-01-02T19:11:31Z phoe: Bike: dropped the thing, and hm. The compiler would probably be smart enough to notice whenever MAKE-ARRAY-ARGS is NIL, since (apply #'foo bar baz '()) seems like a very simple optimization.
2018-01-02T19:16:44Z phoe: Bike: thanks for the review!
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2018-01-02T19:18:48Z asarch: Can you "overload" functions in Lisp?
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2018-01-02T19:20:41Z asarch: Or just define a function with a big list of all available arguments it could handle: (defun foo (list(a 0 a-p) list(b 1/2 b-p) list(c "Hello, world!" c-p)) ... )
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2018-01-02T19:22:29Z Xach: asarch: no
2018-01-02T19:23:06Z phoe: asarch: you mean some kind of pattern matching?
2018-01-02T19:23:27Z Bike: you can define generic functions, which do different things based on the classes of their arguments. you can't write definitions with different numbers of arguments of which only one is picked by the compiler, like in C++, though you can have a function that takes a variable number of arguments and does different things depending on the number.
2018-01-02T19:23:35Z phoe: Bike: oi
2018-01-02T19:23:42Z phoe: methods can also be EQL-specialized
2018-01-02T19:23:50Z dlowe: asarch: not sensibly. You could just define all your functions with a &rest parameter and do your argument parsing in the function body.  It would be annoying and slow, though.
2018-01-02T19:25:20Z phoe: but then again, I wonder if EQL-specializing is what asarch wants...
2018-01-02T19:25:31Z phoe: asarch: what kind of mechanism are you trying to achieve?
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2018-01-02T19:31:51Z __rumbler31: phoe: do you have a commit published where you made your changes that resulted in the speedup?  How did you figure out that the coercing was the cause, and what did you change to alleviate that?
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2018-01-02T19:35:39Z phoe: __rumbler31: yes, one second.
2018-01-02T19:36:27Z phoe: I used SB-PROFILE:PROFILE to profile a few functions - the decompression function itself, the LZMA-DECODE function (CFFI callback), and then I extracted the COERCE into a separate function that was profiled as well.
2018-01-02T19:36:46Z pjb: asarch: you can define anything you want in lisp.
2018-01-02T19:36:55Z phoe: The coercion consed up to half a gigabyte of memory and took almost all execution time.
2018-01-02T19:37:04Z pjb: asarch: (defmacro define-overloaded-function (name lambda-list &body body) …)
2018-01-02T19:37:33Z pjb: asarch: your job is to implement the … so that a function named ,name is overloaded.
2018-01-02T19:37:42Z phoe: __rumbler31: https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/commit/708e5b55fb527f481ef0607b04a5065da68ee955 this is a pretty big commit, but:
2018-01-02T19:38:13Z pjb: asarch: CLOS has defgeneric and defmethod, but this is only one way to do it. You can do it your own way with asarch:define-overloaded-function
2018-01-02T19:38:25Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/commit/708e5b55fb527f481ef0607b04a5065da68ee955#diff-8a9f675836b18f93ed95c87feba2a29bL128 - this is the offending call. Note that first FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP coerces from C memory into Lisp array of type T, and then COERCE coerces from type T into a octet-vector.
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2018-01-02T19:39:10Z phoe: What I did was, I removed both converting from C into simple-vector, and then from simple-vector into octet-vector, by using a static vector.
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2018-01-02T19:40:00Z phoe: I gave the C callbacks pointers into raw memory that is the storage of the static vector. This way, the C function can operate straight on the memory that is used by the static vector, and I can then use this inside Lisp code without any conversions or copying.
2018-01-02T19:41:45Z phoe: __rumbler31: I'll actually write a blogpost about it. Thanks for the idea.
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2018-01-02T19:45:35Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: use static-vectors and avoid copying
2018-01-02T19:45:48Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: uh, this is exactly what I did?
2018-01-02T19:46:44Z fe[nl]ix: oops, too much speed reading
2018-01-02T19:46:50Z phoe: (:
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2018-01-02T19:47:26Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: http://i.imgur.com/paqPdgo.png
2018-01-02T19:47:41Z fe[nl]ix: good choice :D
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2018-01-02T19:52:59Z __rumbler31: last question, are static vectors a cffi feature?
2018-01-02T19:53:11Z __rumbler31: phoe: and tyvm
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2018-01-02T19:54:01Z phoe: __rumbler31: no
2018-01-02T19:54:15Z phoe: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors
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2018-01-02T19:55:04Z __rumbler31: oh holy cow
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2018-01-02T19:56:31Z phoe: the implementation needs to support it
2018-01-02T19:57:01Z phoe: since you are creating an object that is a valid Lisp array and also contains a valid C array
2018-01-02T19:57:10Z asarch: I see
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2018-01-02T19:57:14Z asarch: Thank you guys
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2018-01-02T20:54:39Z jmercouris: anyone willing to help test nEXT on Linux?
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2018-01-02T20:55:10Z jmercouris: I only have a VM, so I'm not sure how quick things are, and I'm getting some extremely strange GTK errors, not sure how much is my code or VM
2018-01-02T20:56:14Z jasom: jmercouris: what do you want me to do?
2018-01-02T20:56:30Z jmercouris: jasom: Just run it, and see if it explodes/works on your machine
2018-01-02T20:56:52Z jmercouris: jasom: If you're curious about the source code, it's all available for you to look at
2018-01-02T20:57:11Z jmercouris: jasom: This is the branch: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/gtk
2018-01-02T20:58:03Z jasom: ccl only?
2018-01-02T20:58:20Z jmercouris: jasom: Have to have something like sudo apt-get install libwebkit2gtk-3.0-dev
2018-01-02T20:58:27Z jmercouris: jasom: Should work with anything
2018-01-02T20:58:36Z jmercouris: jasom: Just have to comment out one ccl specific line of code
2018-01-02T20:59:17Z jmercouris: jasom: Within utility.lisp comment out (defun start-swank ...) it should let you run it anyway with that in though
2018-01-02T20:59:38Z jasom: I have 2.4.11 but not 3.x installed I think
2018-01-02T20:59:44Z jasom: (of webkit gtk
2018-01-02T21:00:04Z jmercouris: I wonder if that will work, maybe you can just skip errors
2018-01-02T21:02:52Z jmercouris: You also have to add cl-webkit to your local projects: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/cl-webkit
2018-01-02T21:02:59Z jmercouris: sorry for the painful installation, I'm working on it
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2018-01-02T21:03:41Z jasom: jmercouris: you should really #+ccl the use line in package.lisp
2018-01-02T21:03:58Z jmercouris: I really should ineed
2018-01-02T21:04:04Z jmercouris: in fact, that probably shouldn't even be in there at all
2018-01-02T21:04:07Z jasom: Undefined function: INTERFACE:KILL
2018-01-02T21:04:34Z jasom: inside next::initialize-default-key-bindings
2018-01-02T21:04:46Z jmercouris: jasom: did package.lisp get loaded properly?
2018-01-02T21:04:53Z jasom: jmercouris: yeah, I'm using ccl for now
2018-01-02T21:05:22Z jmercouris: That doesn't make sense, because you'll see kill is defined in package.lisp
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2018-01-02T21:06:02Z jmercouris: s/defined/declared
2018-01-02T21:06:32Z jasom: jmercouris: it can find the symbol, but not the function
2018-01-02T21:06:37Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/7npeab/ <- I made a HOWTO on installing emacs + ECL on Android via termux.
2018-01-02T21:06:40Z jasom: e.g. changing it from #' to ' makes it work
2018-01-02T21:06:51Z jasom: well not complain, haven't tried it for working yet
2018-01-02T21:06:55Z jmercouris: jasom: Huh, maybe mine only works because I've alredy compiled
2018-01-02T21:07:06Z phoe: I'd like to ask for a proofreading in case I screwed up somewhere.
2018-01-02T21:07:56Z jmercouris: phoe: number 5 makes no sense
2018-01-02T21:07:57Z jmercouris: "Run apt install emacs for installing vim. Install spacemacs or download your favorite emacs configuration."
2018-01-02T21:09:02Z jmercouris: phoe: Pretty impressive technology
2018-01-02T21:09:10Z phoe: jmercouris: fixed.
2018-01-02T21:09:12Z jmercouris: jasom: Does it start or no?
2018-01-02T21:09:15Z jasom: jmercouris: ah, I think I needed to load "next/gtk"
2018-01-02T21:09:17Z phoe: jmercouris: technology? what do you mean?
2018-01-02T21:09:26Z jmercouris: jasom: That would make sense, gotta ql it first
2018-01-02T21:09:45Z jasom: jmercouris: I was not aware that the "next" system was insufficient
2018-01-02T21:09:45Z jmercouris: phoe: I mean, it is impressive that it's possible to run this on android at all
2018-01-02T21:09:54Z jmercouris: jasom: Yeah, "next" is just the core
2018-01-02T21:10:07Z jmercouris: jasom: Sorry about that!
2018-01-02T21:10:56Z phoe: jmercouris: the rule is simple
2018-01-02T21:10:57Z jasom is installing newer libwebkit2
2018-01-02T21:11:14Z phoe: 1) get a C compiler there, 2) run everything
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2018-01-02T21:12:52Z jmercouris: phoe: simple != easy
2018-01-02T21:13:17Z jasom: jmercouris: I'll get back to you tomorrow on this; I'm running gentoo, and currently not at my faster machine, so it will take a couple of hours to build webkit
2018-01-02T21:13:27Z jmercouris: jasom: You have to literally build it :D?
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2018-01-02T21:13:32Z jasom: jmercouris: yup
2018-01-02T21:13:41Z jmercouris: jasom: Okay, I look forward to it, thanks!
2018-01-02T21:14:29Z jasom: I can build webkit in 65 minutes on my faster machine, but I'm on a 4 year old xeon right now, so it will take maybe 3 hours to build
2018-01-02T21:14:51Z jmercouris: Lol, that's hilarious, doesn't portage provide binaries?
2018-01-02T21:14:58Z jmercouris: It is portage right?
2018-01-02T21:15:10Z jasom: jmercouris: it only provides binaries for select items
2018-01-02T21:15:18Z p_l: jmercouris: no, it doesn't, then webkit is just a PITA
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2018-01-02T21:15:36Z jmercouris: How should I package my application for distribution on Linux?
2018-01-02T21:15:54Z jasom: jmercouris: make a deb that works on ubuntu and force everyone else to build from source; that's the Linux way :)
2018-01-02T21:16:13Z jasom: (substitute "rpm" for deb and "Red Hat" for ubuntu if it's 10 years ago)
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2018-01-02T21:16:35Z jmercouris: jasom: How do I make a deb file for SBCL or CCL?
2018-01-02T21:16:44Z jasom: jmercouris: they already exist
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2018-01-02T21:16:58Z jmercouris: So I run the app, save the image, and pop into an existing deb file and ship?
2018-01-02T21:17:18Z Shinmera: jmercouris: You might have luck with AppImage. Alternatively you can wait for me to get around to turning Portacle into a platform
2018-01-02T21:17:21Z jmercouris: How do I ensure that the user has the webkit libraries for example?
2018-01-02T21:17:26Z jasom: jmercouris: that should work.  If you want it to get upstreamed you'll have to do more (the author of pgloader did this)
2018-01-02T21:17:32Z jasom: jmercouris: you specify dependencies
2018-01-02T21:17:56Z jasom: jmercouris: easiest way to check your deps are right is to use an lxc or vm image of a fresh install and see if it works there.
2018-01-02T21:18:09Z jmercouris: Shinmera: AppImage looks pretty cool
2018-01-02T21:18:20Z jmercouris: jasom: I am running on a completely barebones vm right now
2018-01-02T21:18:24Z jasom: for actually getting it upstreamed, the author of pgloader has a blog article about it
2018-01-02T21:18:30Z jmercouris: jasom: I wish I had a linux machine that didn't suck
2018-01-02T21:18:40Z jmercouris: jasom: you mean dim?
2018-01-02T21:18:53Z jmercouris: or is it demetri, it's d+ something
2018-01-02T21:19:25Z Shinmera: It's dim
2018-01-02T21:19:27Z jasom: jmercouris: I'm really bad with names, so don't ask me
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2018-01-02T21:37:28Z aeth: AppImage is probably the least popular of the three options (the other two are Flatpak and Snappy, with the third being Canonical's NIH)
2018-01-02T21:38:04Z aeth: And, yes, it's Linux, there's always at least three options.
2018-01-02T21:39:19Z aeth: GNOME is backing Flatpak and Ubuntu is backing Snappy, which is why they're probably more popular.
2018-01-02T21:39:24Z jmercouris: Sometimes more choice is less good
2018-01-02T21:39:58Z jmercouris: I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion, but I don't feel like packaging my app in 20 different ways
2018-01-02T21:40:13Z Shinmera: aeth: Don't forget about Docker...
2018-01-02T21:40:27Z aeth: I'd personally go with Flatpak, then. It seems to be extremely available, e.g. Fedora installs it by default.
2018-01-02T21:40:52Z aeth: (And it's not just because Fedora is a GNOME distro, I install the KDE spin.)
2018-01-02T21:41:15Z jmercouris: I'm mentally going to just making a deb file and letting everybody else figure it out
2018-01-02T21:41:28Z aeth: That's probably the worst option. debs aren't portable at all.
2018-01-02T21:41:32Z jmercouris: debian + ubuntu should cover most users I think, and anyone who doesn't use those distros should be used to installing from source
2018-01-02T21:41:39Z aeth: Actually, no
2018-01-02T21:41:56Z aeth: As a Fedora user, I'm used to there being a Fedora/SUSE RPM option as well.
2018-01-02T21:42:05Z aeth: Arch is where people who are used to source installs go
2018-01-02T21:42:24Z Shinmera: And even then I like having an AUR build script ready for me
2018-01-02T21:42:26Z jmercouris: As a BSD user, I'm used to things not being available
2018-01-02T21:42:27Z aeth: (Although it's common that the RPM is third party)
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2018-01-02T21:43:14Z jmercouris: aeth: Will you be my third party ;)?
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2018-01-02T21:44:01Z aeth: Personally, if I released packages, I'd just do a Flatpak and if someone wants to make distro-specific packages the community can do it themselves.
2018-01-02T21:45:12Z aeth: The old portable method was a shell script, usually installing things to ~ or ~/foo/ with an option to install them to /usr/local/
2018-01-02T21:45:32Z aeth: I've encountered that a lot more than providing a package at all.
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2018-01-02T21:46:35Z aeth: In checking, I just found out that I have a /usr/@DATADIRNAME@/ so that shows you how reliable such scripts are.
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2018-01-02T22:07:39Z pillton: asarch: Specialization-store can do the kind of thing you are after: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-2:-Optional,-Keyword-and-Rest-Arguments#rest-arguments
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2018-01-02T22:20:27Z aeth: Cool, specialization-store supports ECL now
2018-01-02T22:21:55Z pillton: I added it before it got added to quicklisp.
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2018-01-02T22:22:52Z aeth: I guess it's just missing ABCL and CLISP support (fairly common due to how those implementations work) and Clasp support (also fairly common, due to Clasp not being complete yet)
2018-01-02T22:23:37Z aeth: Also, Mezzano (is it its own implementation?) and MKCL (probably the least supported implementation for libraries)
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2018-01-02T22:24:59Z pillton: Well, I am only one person. It took nearly four years for SS to get where it is now.
2018-01-02T22:25:55Z aeth: Afaik, SBCL+CCL+ECL+CMUCL covers most people outside of the commerical Lisp world, and any large application will already have some dependency that doesn't support the rest.
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2018-01-02T22:28:01Z pillton: ECL doesn't implement the environment API of CLtL2. The compile time functionality of SS requires it.
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2018-01-02T22:28:26Z aeth: pillton: So how do you handle support on implementations that don't support it at compile time?
2018-01-02T22:28:28Z pillton: Implementing that and updating introspect-environment is a good project for someone.
2018-01-02T22:28:43Z aeth: And I agree.
2018-01-02T22:29:14Z pillton: All of the compile time support is delegated to introspect-environment.
2018-01-02T22:29:22Z pillton: I think it just returns T.
2018-01-02T22:29:27Z aeth: oh
2018-01-02T22:29:30Z aeth: hmm
2018-01-02T22:29:41Z Bike: ecl has an environment api now?
2018-01-02T22:30:07Z pillton: Not that I know of.
2018-01-02T22:30:18Z pillton: I thought it would be a good project for someone.
2018-01-02T22:30:27Z Bike: oh, i see.
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2018-01-02T22:30:48Z pillton: My spare time has dwindled.
2018-01-02T22:31:11Z Bike: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/130 well.
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2018-01-02T22:31:48Z aeth: I don't think I can use specialization-store until ECL supports introspect-environment, for portability.
2018-01-02T22:31:49Z Bike: looks like it doesn't keep type declarations.
2018-01-02T22:32:26Z pillton: Why can't you use it?
2018-01-02T22:32:30Z Bike: and i thought specialization store still worked with no type information, it just did runtime checks?
2018-01-02T22:32:35Z aeth: The problem is the general advice right now is to try (1) SBCL, (2) CCL, (3) ECL in that order.
2018-01-02T22:33:06Z pillton: What? It says it has been tested on those implementations.
2018-01-02T22:33:27Z aeth: Yes, but if ECL generates much slower code, it runs but not as expected.
2018-01-02T22:33:48Z pillton: If SS can't discover anything at compile time it will just defer it to run time.
2018-01-02T22:35:33Z pillton: The function used in SS to perform discrimination is a binary tree. It isn't as bad as you might think. See the results in https://github.com/markcox80/template-function/wiki/Tutorial-1:-An-Introduction.
2018-01-02T22:37:02Z aeth: pillton: Would specialization store work for an inline function that takes either three arguments or one argument, where the one argument variant is actually based on the three argument version? I have two vector representations (multiple value and actual vector) and I implement all of my vector math as multiple value math, currently using %foo as the multiple-value name
2018-01-02T22:38:08Z pillton: aeth: Yes. The link about rest arguments shows how to do that.
2018-01-02T22:38:23Z pillton: aeth: SS is smart enough to interpret THE forms.
2018-01-02T22:39:27Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/src/common.lisp#L25
2018-01-02T22:39:32Z aeth: pillton: Currently, I have (vec+ v1 v2) and (vec+-into! result-v v1 v2) that are both implemented based on an inline (%vec+ v1-x v1-y v1-z v2-x v2-y v2-z) and I do this for everything (vectors and quaternions) except matrices, where the multiple value approach is too inelegant
2018-01-02T22:40:09Z aeth: So e.g. there's also a %quaternion+ that takes in 8 values used as the basis of quaternion+ and quaternion+-into!
2018-01-02T22:40:33Z pillton: I have no general advice for mathematical problems. It is probably the hardest domain to design for.
2018-01-02T22:40:44Z aeth: The "%" is a bit of a misnomer because I actually mostly use them directly because I put a lot of my vectors in 2D arrays, where the row represents the actual value and I retrieve multiple values
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2018-01-02T22:41:40Z aeth: pillton: Well, there are definitely higher-performance ways to do what I'm doing. I do the multiple-values approach because it gives me pure functions that do not cons. It makes the API really messy, though.
2018-01-02T22:41:51Z pillton: I do the same thing (except they are called vec+ and nvec+).
2018-01-02T22:42:14Z pillton: In my experience, the BLAS/LAPACK API is by far the easiest to work with.
2018-01-02T22:42:17Z aeth: A naive-consing vector API will have 1/3 the functions that I have (naive consing, -into, and multiple-values)
2018-01-02T22:43:02Z aeth: Using the -into API winds up making everything look not very mathematical and more like a machine
2018-01-02T22:43:17Z pillton: You get used to it after a while.
2018-01-02T22:43:32Z pillton: The problem with the mathematical way is understanding what happens underneath.
2018-01-02T22:43:52Z pillton: I've tried doing all the analysis and it is ..... hard.
2018-01-02T22:43:58Z aeth: I only use the -into method for matrices
2018-01-02T22:44:03Z aeth: I don't even call them -into
2018-01-02T22:44:12Z aeth: e.g. it's (matrix* destination m1 m2)
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2018-01-02T22:44:57Z pillton: I do a similar thing.
2018-01-02T22:46:13Z aeth: Unless I move to SBCL-only SIMD, there isn't really a disadvantage to using the multiple value approach directly. It actually beats writing for the vectors themselves because it essentially is a loop unrolling via macro.
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2018-01-02T22:46:35Z aeth: I think it adds one instruction over doing it manually.
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2018-01-02T22:47:09Z aeth: I'd like to make the whole thing cleaner, though. Having three versions that do the same thing with different tradeoffs is messy.
2018-01-02T22:47:56Z pillton: You always have that trade off. It is even worse with matrices since they can be row-major, column major or some general stride setup.
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2018-01-02T22:50:10Z Shinmera: Wait until you get to sparse matrices.
2018-01-02T22:50:22Z Shinmera: That's where the real "fun" begins.
2018-01-02T22:50:53Z Shinmera: (Don't implement your own sparse matrix stuff. It's not worth it.)
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2018-01-02T22:54:10Z pillton: You can say the same thing for diagonal matrices or Toeplitz.
2018-01-02T22:54:20Z Shinmera: Or any matrix stuff, really
2018-01-02T22:54:28Z Shinmera: In general, don't implement your own linear algebra
2018-01-02T22:55:50Z pillton: That isn't a satisfactory position to advocate. How will things improve?
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2018-01-02T22:56:40Z Shinmera: Things improve if you tackle domains that you have a good shot at improving. Linear algebra is highly likely not one of those.
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2018-01-02T23:21:59Z aeth: Afaik, you can't really get very high performance vector stuff in CL
2018-01-02T23:23:39Z pillton: SBCL is pretty good considering the assembly doesn't use SIMD.
2018-01-02T23:23:41Z aeth: At least for game linear algebra, it looks like the optimal data structure (e.g. if I were implementing it in x86-64 asm directly) would be a buffer of what SBCL calls simd-packs.
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2018-01-02T23:23:50Z aeth: if that's even possible
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2018-01-02T23:24:30Z aeth: i.e. instead of an array of 32000 (sb-ext:%make-simd-pack-single)s, you do SIMD on offsets into a buffer that can hold the equivalent amount of data.
2018-01-02T23:25:06Z aeth: It could be kept compact by e.g. swapping the last valid element in the buffer with the one you're removing and then removing the last valid element in the buffer
2018-01-02T23:25:21Z aeth: (in this case, the element would be the simd, not one float)
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2018-01-02T23:26:08Z aeth: If this scheme could work and the GC could skip over this chunk of memory, too, that would be amazing.
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2018-01-02T23:27:21Z JonSmith: could probably done with some of the ffi stuff
2018-01-02T23:28:43Z aeth: To be really worth it in a library one would have to (1) make it portable to at least CCL and ECL even if the portable part is a slower fallback in native CL and (2) add no foreign library dependencies
2018-01-02T23:30:05Z JonSmith: you'd use cffi / uffi / whatever is in vogue now to fix the memory mostly
2018-01-02T23:30:28Z aeth: Oh, and the holy grail would be (3) if it was as usable as static-vectors
2018-01-02T23:30:34Z aeth: #3 is probably impossible
2018-01-02T23:30:57Z pillton: You could also consider adopting an API similar to LDB and DPB but for chunks of an array.
2018-01-02T23:32:08Z pillton: ... and BOOLE.
2018-01-02T23:32:39Z JonSmith: alternately it would be cool for someone to hack SIMD vector stuff into sbcl
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2018-01-02T23:33:40Z pillton: What would it look like?
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2018-01-02T23:38:13Z JonSmith: probably a set of VOPs and some sort of logic to trigger them when you're doing *special vector stuff*, its been a long time since i looked at the sbcl internals so i can't remember how the optimizer/emitter works
2018-01-02T23:39:03Z pillton: I mean, what would a user write to perform a dot product of two vectors?
2018-01-02T23:40:56Z JonSmith: that would be a couple levels of abstraction up from what i'm suggesting, so presumably lisp code that does a dot product of two vectors that have type declarations
2018-01-02T23:41:16Z JonSmith: it would be cool, but that doesn't mean it is particularly feasible
2018-01-02T23:43:06Z JonSmith: and i think they'd be typed 1d arrays rather than vectors, technically
2018-01-02T23:43:20Z JonSmith: or 2d
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2018-01-02T23:51:38Z stylewarning: pillton: aeth: within a couple weeks we will be releasing our linear algebra library. It could use lots of work for the high level API, but the BLAS/LAPACK bindings are solid.
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2018-01-02T23:56:16Z pillton: stylewarning: Great. I look forward to it.
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2018-01-03T00:20:30Z aeth: I definitely think the approach for game linear algebra (which is mostly math vectors of size 2, 3, or 4 (where size 4 can be quaternions that encode rotations) and square matrices no larger than 4x4) shouldn't be to rely on anything automated on the compiler's side, and should work with buffers rather than with individual objects.
2018-01-03T00:22:12Z pfdietz: Compiler support may be needed for all those weird SIMD instructions.
2018-01-03T00:22:16Z aeth: At the moment, I use 2D arrays with row sizes of 3 or 4, but 1D arrays with a special aref could also work. This approach is treating each float individually instead of together like SIMD, though.
2018-01-03T00:22:52Z pfdietz: (reads back up the window) oh, that's what was being talked about
2018-01-03T00:23:02Z aeth: pfdietz: I think creating a special type in an extension that works portably over SBCL, CCL, ECL, and maybe CMUCL would probably be the direction to go, rather than doing it automatically.
2018-01-03T00:23:20Z aeth: (Or just hacking it in via the CFFI)
2018-01-03T00:23:49Z aeth: Alternatively, just supporting SBCL with the fast path and using 1D arrays of single-floats for everything else.
2018-01-03T00:23:52Z pfdietz: And these days it's all about putting stuff on GPUs.
2018-01-03T00:24:42Z pillton: Something like (simd op dest src1 ...) where sources could be a simd-pack or a (chunk <array> <index>).
2018-01-03T00:24:57Z aeth: For games, the heavy lifting of the rendering is done on the GPUs, but there's plenty of things that are done on the CPUs. The most intensive is probably game physics, some of which can be done on the GPU, but then that limits how pretty you can make the game look. GPU physics has kind of fallen out of favor, actually, because of this.
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2018-01-03T00:25:08Z aeth: Even Nvidia's PhysX is mostly CPU-side these days afaik.
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2018-01-03T00:26:19Z aeth: pillton: I don't quite like simd-pack because an array of simd-packs isn't going to be as ideal as working with offsets into a buffer, at least for data structures used in games.
2018-01-03T00:26:50Z pillton: Which is why I suggested (simd op dest (chunk <array> <index>)).
2018-01-03T00:26:54Z aeth: yeah
2018-01-03T00:27:58Z pillton: You would need an operator to compute how many elements to a chunk.
2018-01-03T00:28:21Z pfdietz: How would this fit with machine learning, which is another big user of those coprocessors these days?
2018-01-03T00:29:03Z aeth: Well, I was thinking about this from the perspective of games. Games don't need to have extremely optimized linear algebra. The very heavy lifting for rendering is done on the GPU and for the rest, it's more about hitting seconds per frame targets like 0.0167 or 0.01 or 0.005
2018-01-03T00:29:20Z aeth: So it should be easier to reach acceptable performance with game libraries, before more general purpose linear algebra.
2018-01-03T00:31:04Z aeth: And that data, after the game logic processing, is going to end up in (ideally preallocated) static-vectors sent via OpenGL to the GPU
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2018-01-03T00:33:21Z aeth: At the moment, I get acceptable performance without using SIMD at all.
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2018-01-03T00:39:33Z aeth: For GPU computation, I'm optimistic about SPIR-V eventually being the one-size-fits-all solution for compiling shaders expressed as a mini-Lisp language that can work in OpenGL, OpenCL, and Vulkan. Eventually. It will take a while for it to be supported widely enough.
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2018-01-03T01:22:11Z jasom: jmercouris: works on sbcl (with a few #+ccl changes), crashes on ccl
2018-01-03T01:23:55Z jasom: jmercouris: oh, it just crashed on sbcl too
2018-01-03T01:24:26Z jasom: Memory fault at 0xbbadbeef (pc=0x7fffdbd70cec, sp=0x7fffd8aad6e0)
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2018-01-03T01:26:54Z jasom: ccl crashed with a null pointer exception
2018-01-03T01:27:06Z jasom: the speed is fine, btw, but it's very crashy
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2018-01-03T02:11:05Z cryptomarauder: ugh, instead of going away like I prayed for in early 2000 it's only gotten bigger. Why is java a thing still?
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2018-01-03T02:12:19Z cryptomarauder: we built the whole gd web with it even! 😭
2018-01-03T02:12:42Z cryptomarauder: #failtech
2018-01-03T02:13:12Z krwq: hello, is it possible to force #'read to not read reader macros? i.e.: (with-input-from-string (inp "#.(+ 2 3)") (read inp)) => 5 - I'd like it to report the error instead
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2018-01-03T02:15:50Z krwq: ok nvm: (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read-from-string "#.(+ 2 3)"))
2018-01-03T02:17:22Z cryptomarauder: yeah
2018-01-03T02:18:04Z cryptomarauder: and make sure your safety and debug optimization qualities are set accordingly to what you desire as well
2018-01-03T02:18:44Z aeth: Anyone who makes a Lisp implementation for Intel CPUs (or otherwise deals with syscalls on Intel CPUs) might be interested in this rumor of a major slowdown in an upcoming kernel patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nngqd/intel_bug_incoming/
2018-01-03T02:19:31Z aeth: Reading the comments, it looks like 5% at a minimum, 35% for syscall-heavy things.
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2018-01-03T02:21:36Z aeth: It's in Linux kernel 4.15-rc6 so people are benchmarking it.
2018-01-03T02:27:03Z pjb: krwq: it is possible: (let ((*readtable* (com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro:remove-all-macro-characters (copy-readtable nil)))) (read-from-string "Hello")) #| --> hello ; 5 |#
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2018-01-03T02:28:13Z pjb: aeth: again, as I always say: write it in fucking lisp, don't do FFI!  (syscall are FFI on non-lisp-machine OSes).
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2018-01-03T02:28:50Z krwq: pjb: are there any pitfalls with *read-eval* being nil? Assume untrusted data on input
2018-01-03T02:29:20Z pjb: No, no pitfall.
2018-01-03T02:29:46Z krwq: pjb: but with remove-all-macros-characters I assume also comments etc. wouldn't work, right?
2018-01-03T02:29:56Z aeth: pjb: I assume the implementations themselves will still do syscalls at some point?
2018-01-03T02:30:08Z aeth: So everything will eventually be affected but Mezzano
2018-01-03T02:30:12Z pjb: Well, it won't signal an error: (let ((*readtable* (com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro:remove-all-macro-characters (copy-readtable nil)))) (read-from-string "#.(+ 2 3)")) #| --> |#.(+| ; 5 |#
2018-01-03T02:30:30Z pjb: without reader macros, READ only parses symbols, integers and floating-point numbers.
2018-01-03T02:31:11Z pjb: aeth: right.
2018-01-03T02:31:23Z krwq: pjb: I think I'm fine with parsing everything as long as it won't execute anything by default...
2018-01-03T02:31:39Z aeth: pjb: Except Mezzano is usually run in a VM and not bare metal, so even most Mezzano instances are affected
2018-01-03T02:32:03Z pjb: krwq: #9999999999*0
2018-01-03T02:32:28Z krwq: pjb: I didn't realize this was possible - lol
2018-01-03T02:32:43Z pjb: krwq: you should try some fuzzying…
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2018-01-03T02:35:08Z pjb: krwq: if you have untrusted data to parse, then do that: parse it!  Don't use the lisp reader for that; as you can see, the bare lisp reader only gives you symbols, integers and floating-point numbers (and what makes an integer or a symbol is dependent on *read-base*).  You can play tricks with reader macros, but it will always be easier to write and use a normal parser function.
2018-01-03T02:36:16Z aeth: My favorite reader macro is #4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.)
2018-01-03T02:36:32Z pjb: Does it read a lambda form?
2018-01-03T02:36:44Z krwq: aeth: what does it do? I'm afraid of running this
2018-01-03T02:36:48Z pjb: (#4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.))
2018-01-03T02:36:48Z pjb: ?
2018-01-03T02:37:00Z aeth: pjb: That's a good idea
2018-01-03T02:37:10Z aeth: pjb: No, it just directly executes at the moment
2018-01-03T02:37:12Z pjb: krwq: it's brainfuck.
2018-01-03T02:37:34Z krwq: pjb: I know but I assume CL does not read BF by default?
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2018-01-03T02:37:37Z pjb: aeth: it could even take some arguments and return some results, using some convention.
2018-01-03T02:37:46Z pjb: krwq: hence #f.
2018-01-03T02:38:27Z aeth: #4f means it creates a brainfuck machine of size 4. Although technically they should be infinite, it wastes space
2018-01-03T02:38:58Z pjb: THe problem with #f is that it could be defined and used by the implementation.
2018-01-03T02:39:19Z pjb: And on the other hand, !?[]{} are reserved for the user.
2018-01-03T02:39:55Z pjb: Libraries should provide the reader macro functions, not bound reader macro characters.  (they may provide a macro to bind them, but let the user do that).
2018-01-03T02:41:03Z pjb: Then there are named-readtables, but I haven't looked into them.
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2018-01-03T02:44:32Z aeth: The problem with BF in general is that... it's hard to build data structures that aren't 0-terminated without copying everything and moving the world around with you. So I suspect adding a calling and return convention probably wouldn't be useful.
2018-01-03T02:45:06Z aeth: Turing machines are nearly useless, you want registers or stacks.
2018-01-03T02:45:56Z aeth: I was playing around with a potential string representation, but real strings (as opposed to C-strings) need a length prefix and all that metadata essentially needs to move with the world because Brainfuck only has relative offsets, so you can't leave it behind.
2018-01-03T02:46:37Z aeth: So Lisp-in-BF-in-Lisp would be very slow.
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2018-01-03T02:48:32Z aeth: Oh, and good luck with pointers in cons cells in Brainfuck.
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2018-01-03T02:50:40Z Zhivago: Why do real strings need a length prefix?
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2018-01-03T02:52:41Z aeth: Are CL strings length prefixed by a fixnum?
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2018-01-03T04:08:12Z jasom: aeth: cl strings, as vectors, are length-aware, but the standard does not specify any specific memory layout
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2018-01-03T04:23:55Z jmercouris: jasom: Good to hear that the speed is fine
2018-01-03T04:24:08Z jmercouris: jasom: was it just crashing randomly, or with user interaction?
2018-01-03T04:24:18Z jasom: jmercouris: no pattern that I could find
2018-01-03T04:24:41Z jmercouris: damn, that's bad news
2018-01-03T04:24:58Z jmercouris: could you please send a PR with the SBCL changes you made? or somehow convey them to me?
2018-01-03T04:25:27Z jmercouris: It feels like GTK is so unpredictable, maybe I am abusing the API in some ways
2018-01-03T04:25:44Z jmercouris: I mean, I definitely am, just wondering what specifically is causing these crashes
2018-01-03T04:25:59Z jmercouris: Is it me, or cl-cffi-gtk, or cl-webkit or what
2018-01-03T04:26:29Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/jasom/2b1b324a99c1bf0248dfcde364afe162
2018-01-03T04:27:00Z jmercouris: jasom: How did you make that?
2018-01-03T04:27:04Z jmercouris: is there an automated way to do that?
2018-01-03T04:27:18Z jmercouris: or you entered the commands above each snippet?
2018-01-03T04:27:26Z jasom: jmercouris: git diff
2018-01-03T04:27:45Z jmercouris: ok so you just did the commands above each snippet
2018-01-03T04:27:58Z jasom: jmercouris: nope, that's the output of "git diff"
2018-01-03T04:27:59Z jmercouris: I thought maybe there's some cool software that sees which files have changed, does a git diff for each and makes a nice little output
2018-01-03T04:28:18Z jasom: jmercouris: there is, it's called git :)
2018-01-03T04:28:52Z jmercouris: jasom: Yeah, that's one part I never was familiar with
2018-01-03T04:29:11Z jmercouris: let's say I have a branch, and make another branch, how can I produce a patch file with all the diffs between the two branches?
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2018-01-03T04:29:36Z jmercouris: furthermore, if such a file exists, when someone sends me such a file, is there a way I can apply it?
2018-01-03T04:30:06Z jasom: jmercouris: git diff <other-branch>
2018-01-03T04:30:15Z jasom: patch < foo.patch
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2018-01-03T04:30:51Z sigjuice: patch -p1 < foo.patch ?
2018-01-03T04:30:53Z jasom forgets if you need to do patch -p1 for the output of a git diff
2018-01-03T04:31:29Z jasom: patch has got to be the most annoying user interface ever
2018-01-03T04:31:51Z jmercouris: Is there a way to do this via magit?
2018-01-03T04:32:08Z jmercouris: I see it
2018-01-03T04:32:11Z jmercouris: seems to be "W"
2018-01-03T04:32:14Z jasom: https://magit.vc/manual/magit/Applying-patches.html
2018-01-03T04:32:23Z jasom looked that up with google and nEXT
2018-01-03T04:32:35Z jmercouris: jasom: Noiiceee :D
2018-01-03T04:32:55Z jmercouris: Wait until the JS actually works
2018-01-03T04:33:39Z jasom: jmercouris: it appears to (at least I see autocompletes on google)
2018-01-03T04:33:53Z jmercouris: jasom: I meant the web-view-execute part of the interface
2018-01-03T04:33:59Z jmercouris: it's supposed to execute parenscript
2018-01-03T04:34:03Z jasom: ah
2018-01-03T04:34:06Z jmercouris: so things like link-hints, should not be working yet
2018-01-03T04:34:24Z jmercouris: any JS that doesn't require piping data back to the lisp program will still work, like scrolling to bottom and top of page, etc
2018-01-03T04:34:34Z jmercouris: there's just a few things left
2018-01-03T04:34:52Z rumbler31: You started with magit instead of git?
2018-01-03T04:35:09Z rumbler31: I did the opposite, I opened magit and was like wuttt,  now I know whats going on and I love it
2018-01-03T04:35:12Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Nah, I've used git from the CLI for like 2 years
2018-01-03T04:35:15Z jmercouris: then went to magit
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2018-01-03T04:35:26Z jmercouris: I was using mercurial before that, and CVS before that
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2018-01-03T04:38:21Z rumbler31: jmercouris: https://github.com/Osse/git-stuff/blob/master/dots.txt
2018-01-03T04:38:27Z jasom: jmercouris: correction, nEXT is actually stable on sbcl, it's closing a window that causes everything to get corrupted
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2018-01-03T04:38:34Z rumbler31: and peep the rest of that repository for enlightenment
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2018-01-03T04:38:42Z jmercouris: jasom: Ah, that's good to know
2018-01-03T04:38:48Z jmercouris: jasom: When you say a window, do you mean a tab?
2018-01-03T04:39:02Z jasom: jmercouris: nope I mean using the WM to close an entire wnidow
2018-01-03T04:39:38Z jasom: jmercouris: the equivalent of clicking the red bubble in the upper-left on OS X
2018-01-03T04:40:02Z jasom thinks it causes a window-destroy event in GTK, but I haven't touched GTK for a while so might be wrong
2018-01-03T04:41:05Z jmercouris: Yes, that causes a window destroy event, which I currently do not handle
2018-01-03T04:41:19Z jmercouris: it's really unstable on CCL for me, maybe i'll try installing sbcl
2018-01-03T04:41:29Z jmercouris: how did you install SBCL?
2018-01-03T04:42:03Z jmercouris: nvm, you are using gentoo :D
2018-01-03T04:42:09Z jasom: jmercouris: apt-get install sbcl
2018-01-03T04:42:18Z jmercouris: is that a recent enough version though?
2018-01-03T04:42:20Z jmercouris: I guess it should be okay
2018-01-03T04:42:28Z jasom: jmercouris: its "a" version
2018-01-03T04:42:34Z jasom: you can always use it to build the latest if needed
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2018-01-03T04:43:00Z jmercouris: one uses SBCL to build SBCL?
2018-01-03T04:43:03Z sigjuice: jmercouris I tried the nEXT gtk branch  as well, but didn't get very far.  I have ubuntu 17.10, Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5  (LinuxX8664). After (next:start), I got Error: null-pointer in parse-g-param-spec While executing: GOBJECT:PARSE-G-PARAM-SPEC, in process listener(1).
2018-01-03T04:43:19Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Yeah, I figured that out
2018-01-03T04:43:23Z jasom: jmercouris: it should build with any conforming CL implementation
2018-01-03T04:43:26Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Please pull again, that is a concurrency issue
2018-01-03T04:43:41Z jasom: ah, that's the issue I got under ccl
2018-01-03T04:43:50Z jmercouris: Yeah, so what happens is
2018-01-03T04:43:57Z jmercouris: it will call the next function which is (set-visible-view)
2018-01-03T04:44:06Z jmercouris: but the code to create the interface has not returned yet
2018-01-03T04:44:17Z jmercouris: meaning it tries to set the visible view on the interface object which is not yet ready
2018-01-03T04:44:57Z sigjuice: jmercouris "git pull" says Already up-to-date. 7b0e6bedd7f14fc0fcbf6ae97a75ab57b4885a11 is the commit I'm at.
2018-01-03T04:45:03Z jmercouris: So I wrapped set-visible-view in gtk:within-main-loop so the interface would definitely be intialized before that could code run (as they would be running on the same thread)
2018-01-03T04:45:15Z jmercouris: huh, that's strange then that you still get that
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2018-01-03T04:45:42Z jmercouris: runs on my machine every time :\
2018-01-03T04:45:58Z jasom: jmercouris: just did a pull and it still happens
2018-01-03T04:46:16Z jmercouris: Is there anymore information you can give me?
2018-01-03T04:46:28Z jmercouris: E.g. like a list of restarts what call causes it?
2018-01-03T04:46:45Z jasom: jmercouris: have you considered just running all your code in the gtk main loop?
2018-01-03T04:47:04Z jmercouris: jasom: I have considered that, I will probably wrap all interface calls in there, yes
2018-01-03T04:47:19Z jmercouris: just to avoid weird issues
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2018-01-03T04:47:52Z jasom: The following is sufficient to reproduce for me: ccl -e '(asdf:load-asd "'"$PWD/next/next.asd"'")' -e '(asdf:load-system "next/gtk")' -e '(next:start)'
2018-01-03T04:48:17Z jmercouris: are you running that as a one liner?
2018-01-03T04:48:22Z jasom: jmercouris: yeah
2018-01-03T04:48:26Z jmercouris: maybe it needs time to load before you call next:start
2018-01-03T04:48:35Z jasom: jmercouris: then you have a bug
2018-01-03T04:48:39Z jmercouris: I always wait like 10 seconds or so because it would crash on me when I wouldn't
2018-01-03T04:48:54Z jmercouris: I meant in between loading the system and starting
2018-01-03T04:48:56Z jasom: jmercouris: any time waiting fixes a bug, you haven't fixed the bug
2018-01-03T04:49:03Z jmercouris: I have a feeling the bug is upstream
2018-01-03T04:49:10Z jmercouris: it doesn't happen in the Cocoa version
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2018-01-03T04:51:20Z sigjuice: I tried (ql:quickload :next/gtk) and then (next:start).  I'm not at all familiar with gtk, but I do get a tiny white window with the title nEXT
2018-01-03T04:51:36Z jmercouris: hmm yeah, that should be working
2018-01-03T04:51:44Z jmercouris: try pressing C-l and loading a web page
2018-01-03T04:51:58Z jmercouris: or C-x b and see if you can get any completions for a buffer
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2018-01-03T04:54:04Z sigjuice: C-x b and C-l do nothing
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2018-01-03T04:54:53Z jmercouris: sigjuice: :\ hmm let me try running SBCL and see how many issues are maybe CCL specific to some lib interactions
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2018-01-03T04:56:22Z sigjuice: I can try the latest sbcl too, with jasom's patch.  What version of ccl and Linux are you running?
2018-01-03T04:56:52Z jmercouris: CCL: Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5  (LinuxX8664)
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2018-01-03T04:57:38Z jmercouris: I'm running Ubuntu Server 16.04.3 LTX
2018-01-03T04:57:44Z jasom: Is g_idle_add_full thread safe?
2018-01-03T04:57:45Z jmercouris: s/LTX/LTS
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2018-01-03T05:01:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-03T05:01:58Z jmercouris: Good morning
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2018-01-03T05:04:42Z jasom: jmercouris: you're creating UI all over the place outside of the GTK main thread.  That's totally bogus
2018-01-03T05:05:11Z jmercouris: jasom: Yes I am, indeed
2018-01-03T05:05:17Z jmercouris: jasom: Do you think that's causing crashes?
2018-01-03T05:05:28Z jasom: I would fix that before investigating the crashes
2018-01-03T05:05:45Z jasom: there's a non-trivial chance that it is, and it's obviously wrong
2018-01-03T05:06:04Z jmercouris: Yes of course, I'll make a push as well with some CCL specific changes one sec
2018-01-03T05:07:46Z sigjuice: Just got sbcl-1.4.3, but (ql:quickload :next/gtk) complains about Unable to load any of the alternatives:  ("libsqlite3.so.0" "libsqlite3.so").  Weird that ccl didn't complain?
2018-01-03T05:08:09Z jmercouris: try changing that to a 4 in the source code
2018-01-03T05:08:30Z jmercouris: if you got cl-webkit from my fork I made it to a 3 so it would work with ubuntu
2018-01-03T05:08:43Z jmercouris: wait, sorry libsqlite, different lib, I'm tired
2018-01-03T05:09:16Z jmercouris: and yes, I need to list that as a dependency for linux at any rate, what should I put in the instructions?
2018-01-03T05:09:20Z sigjuice: my bad. I didn't realize that I downloaded the 32-bit version of sbcl.
2018-01-03T05:09:25Z jmercouris: "Install libsqlitedev package"?
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2018-01-03T05:11:04Z sigjuice: trying the 64-bit version, which happens to be 1.4.2.  I just clicked on the one that said "newest" here http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html assuming it would be the right one :p
2018-01-03T05:11:04Z jasom: jmercouris: within-main-loop provides no sequencing
2018-01-03T05:11:24Z jasom: jmercouris: e.g. (gtk:within-main-loop (foo)) (gtk:within-main-loop (bar)) either foo or bar could be called first
2018-01-03T05:11:57Z jmercouris: jasom: Yeah, but logically speaking, why would it schedule bar before foo?
2018-01-03T05:12:07Z jasom: jmercouris: because it uses a stack?
2018-01-03T05:12:18Z jasom: jmercouris: if it uses a stack then there will always be a race
2018-01-03T05:12:32Z sigjuice: who is "it" in this context?
2018-01-03T05:12:35Z jmercouris: If you had foo, then bar, foo will begin execution probably some cycles before bar gets added to the stack
2018-01-03T05:12:51Z jmercouris: I assume too much
2018-01-03T05:12:58Z jasom: jmercouris: yes you assume too much.
2018-01-03T05:13:06Z jmercouris: Is there not a way to make this not so asynchronous?
2018-01-03T05:13:27Z jasom: jmercouris: the usual way is to actually do the work inside the main loop rather than doing a bunch of asynchronous requests
2018-01-03T05:13:58Z jasom: jmercouris: you could write your own version of within-main-loop that queues up work and deschedules itself once the queue is empty I suppose
2018-01-03T05:14:23Z jmercouris: I also have one other issue related to this
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2018-01-03T05:14:52Z jmercouris: webkit2:webkit-web-view-run-javascript has a callback you pass that will get fired upon completion
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2018-01-03T05:15:26Z jmercouris: my web-view-execute function needs to be synchronous though, so I have to set up some block that waits for that callback and retrieves the js return value
2018-01-03T05:16:04Z jmercouris: The problem is, the cocoa code is all synchronous, and the gtk code is not, I can't have two different models using the same interface, not easily at least
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2018-01-03T05:16:29Z jasom: jmercouris: this is why cross-platform GUIs are hard
2018-01-03T05:17:02Z Zhivago: Hurrah for promizes.
2018-01-03T05:17:06Z sigjuice: jmercouris I was able to load a web page using sbcl-1.4.2
2018-01-03T05:17:08Z Zhivago: er, promises.
2018-01-03T05:17:17Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Yay!!! :D
2018-01-03T05:17:28Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I will not go down that dark dark road
2018-01-03T05:17:31Z jasom: Zhivago: I'm not sure if the GTK main loop runs in a lisp thread; if so, lparallel to the rescue!
2018-01-03T05:18:05Z jasom: jmercouris: "dark dark road" you're controlling a GTK application from a separate thread, promises light up your road...
2018-01-03T05:18:13Z jmercouris: I like the idea of a within-main-loop work queue, I don't get a callback though for all GTK things I fire off
2018-01-03T05:18:31Z sigjuice: but I am seeing a bunch of messages like this. Memory pressure relief: Total: res = 13537280/11018240/-2519040, res+swap = 9592832/7073792/-2519040 and (sbcl:77596): Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_tree_path_to_string: assertion 'path != NULL' failed and libva error: va_getDriverName() failed with unknown libva error,driver_name=(null)
2018-01-03T05:18:39Z Zhivago: Use the promises to tie asynchronous operations back to synchronous operations.
2018-01-03T05:18:55Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Can you illustrate an example for me please?
2018-01-03T05:18:58Z jasom: jmercouris: a promise converts asynchronous to synchronous with almost zero code
2018-01-03T05:19:06Z jmercouris: in CL that is
2018-01-03T05:19:27Z Zhivago: Not sure what the latest and greatest for promises in CL is.
2018-01-03T05:20:05Z jasom: pseud-cl: (let ((x (promise)) (function-that-takes-callback (lambda () (fulfil x RESULT))) (force x))
2018-01-03T05:20:06Z Zhivago: But it should look something like (await (promise (lambda (done) (async-blah done))))
2018-01-03T05:20:08Z jmercouris: sigjuice: No idea wht the driver name issue/memory pressure is
2018-01-03T05:20:31Z jmercouris: sigjuice: The path !=null assertion refers to a check I do when there are no completions, it can't find a path, therfore can't highlight the first elemtn
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2018-01-03T05:20:36Z jmercouris: within the gtk tree view
2018-01-03T05:20:41Z jasom: lparallel has good promises
2018-01-03T05:20:54Z jasom will try that real quick
2018-01-03T05:21:53Z sigjuice: jmercouris calling it a night, but I will check back here for updates and be happy to test things out
2018-01-03T05:22:06Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Thank you for your help in testing!
2018-01-03T05:22:09Z jmercouris: goodnight
2018-01-03T05:22:49Z jmercouris: jasom: feel free to make a PR, any help is appreciated
2018-01-03T05:23:10Z jmercouris: I've also applied your patch already
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2018-01-03T05:30:27Z jmercouris: it seems to run so much faster in sbcl
2018-01-03T05:30:31Z jmercouris: or maybe I am just imagining that
2018-01-03T05:32:47Z jmercouris: jasom: just to confirm, you are referring to this: https://github.com/lmj/lparallel yeah?
2018-01-03T05:32:57Z jasom: jmercouris: yes
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2018-01-03T05:33:22Z jasom: jmercouris: I've made a synchronous version of within-main-loop already
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2018-01-03T05:35:04Z jmercouris: Nice!
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2018-01-03T05:38:41Z jasom: jmercouris: LPT uiop:quit is portable
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2018-01-03T05:38:56Z jasom: jmercouris: that looks like the only thing :use :ccl was being used for
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2018-01-03T05:39:59Z jmercouris: jasom: It was being used also for some objc- %null-ptr% things in cocoa/utility.lisp
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2018-01-03T05:48:02Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm going to sleep for now too, thanks for your help!
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2018-01-03T05:56:02Z jasom: hmm libwebkit2 is listed twice on list-foreign-libraries I wonder if that's causing issues
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2018-01-03T06:07:50Z jasom has nEXT stable on ccl and sbcl now
2018-01-03T06:08:16Z jasom: ccl *is* slower which is why it was failing.  Also there is a bug upstream in cl-cffi-gtk
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2018-01-03T06:08:42Z jasom: unsurprisingly you can't do (when foreign-ptr ...) as a null check
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2018-01-03T06:18:05Z jasom: minion: memo for jmercouris: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/pull/56 <-- this fixes the ccl issue; I'll post my synchronous gtk solution later tonight
2018-01-03T06:18:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-03T08:08:59Z throwprans: Hello
2018-01-03T08:09:05Z throwprans: looking at this
2018-01-03T08:09:06Z throwprans: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2018-01-03T08:09:11Z throwprans: How can I tell what does passing t means?
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2018-01-03T08:11:01Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/stream designator
2018-01-03T08:11:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#stream_designator
2018-01-03T08:12:31Z throwprans: Okay, I understand this, I think I also understand the concept of designator
2018-01-03T08:12:45Z throwprans: But from that doc, it just says nothing about what t is? or am i missing something obvious here?
2018-01-03T08:12:51Z throwprans: how can I tell if t is not for true?
2018-01-03T08:13:43Z jdz: clhs t
2018-01-03T08:13:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_t.htm
2018-01-03T08:14:45Z jdz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_t.htm
2018-01-03T08:15:09Z throwprans: yeah, cool.
2018-01-03T08:15:15Z throwprans: i am none the wiser.
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2018-01-03T08:16:05Z throwprans: "The symbol t is also sometimes used for other purposes as well. For example, as the name of a class, as a designator (e.g., a stream designator) or as a special symbol for some syntactic reason (e.g., in case and typecase to label the otherwise-clause)."
2018-01-03T08:16:07Z throwprans: Okay, I get that.
2018-01-03T08:16:23Z throwprans: But how do I find out what it means in say some-function-you-never-head-of?
2018-01-03T08:16:28Z jdz: throwprans: T is for "true", and functions that accept stream designators treat T as *terminal-io*.
2018-01-03T08:16:59Z jdz: FORMAT is specified to accept a "stream designator".
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2018-01-03T08:17:14Z Shinmera: throwprans: You look at the documentation
2018-01-03T08:17:16Z beach: Shinmera: I think FORMAT is different in that it doesn't take ordinary stream designators.
2018-01-03T08:17:46Z throwprans: Shinmera: Yeah, and looking at the FORMAT docs, I don't understand how to read it. -_-
2018-01-03T08:17:49Z throwprans: That is my problem.
2018-01-03T08:18:13Z throwprans: It says "destination---nil, t, a stream, or a string with a fill pointer."
2018-01-03T08:18:22Z beach: clhs 22.3
2018-01-03T08:18:22Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2018-01-03T08:18:24Z throwprans: For all that I care, passing t could be stderr.
2018-01-03T08:18:33Z beach: "If destination is t, the output is sent to standard output."
2018-01-03T08:18:44Z Shinmera: Ah, 22.3, that's the one
2018-01-03T08:18:48Z jdz: Oh, bugger, indeed, FORMAT does not care about stream designators.
2018-01-03T08:18:54Z beach: throwprans: See that link.
2018-01-03T08:18:56Z Shinmera: I remembered that it was a special kind of stream designator
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2018-01-03T08:19:47Z throwprans: beach: That is much better, how do I make sure I land on the "extend" version of docs and not here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm?
2018-01-03T08:19:50Z beach: throwprans: The only way to find out what T might mean, is to read the documentation for the function that you are wondering about.
2018-01-03T08:19:58Z jdz: That's why I was surprised to read T -> *terminal-io*, and not *standard-output*.  Should pay more attention to my cognitive dissonance.
2018-01-03T08:20:01Z Shinmera: throwprans: You click on the link to 22.3 there.
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2018-01-03T08:20:25Z throwprans: I searched the web, I got here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2018-01-03T08:20:27Z Shinmera: Alternatively, redirection services like l1sp.org also accept chapter numbers.
2018-01-03T08:20:27Z throwprans: I was lost.
2018-01-03T08:20:37Z beach: But now you are found.
2018-01-03T08:20:42Z throwprans: 22.3 is something that I don't know. :P
2018-01-03T08:20:53Z throwprans: I searched for PRINT hyperspec
2018-01-03T08:20:56Z throwprans: and that was the result.
2018-01-03T08:20:58Z throwprans: And so my confusion.
2018-01-03T08:21:09Z beach: All cleared up now.
2018-01-03T08:21:29Z throwprans: Yeah, now I know that from 22.3 I can go to the f_format doc, still not sure about the other way around
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2018-01-03T08:21:50Z throwprans: I am asking because I might end up the same place again and again for different functions
2018-01-03T08:21:52Z beach: Follow Shinmera's advice.
2018-01-03T08:21:55Z Shinmera: "For details on how the control-string is interpreted, see Section 22.3 (Formatted Output).
2018-01-03T08:21:58Z Shinmera: "
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2018-01-03T08:22:25Z beach: throwprans: We will deal with that when you get there.
2018-01-03T08:23:01Z throwprans: blimey for missing the obvious.
2018-01-03T08:23:19Z throwprans: beach: Alright, thank you madam/sir.
2018-01-03T08:23:20Z beach: throwprans: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is not meant to be documentation for the application programmer.  For that, you are better off reading a book.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec is a specification meant for people implementing Common Lisp systems.
2018-01-03T08:23:43Z throwprans: I am reading the PCL.
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2018-01-03T08:23:55Z Shinmera: Even despite that it is unfortunate that some of the links between pages are not well established
2018-01-03T08:24:03Z throwprans: But I like to understand how stuff works, so like to jump to the man/reference/whatever page when I can.
2018-01-03T08:24:14Z beach: The meaning of T should be documented in PCL.
2018-01-03T08:24:28Z throwprans: It probably is.
2018-01-03T08:24:34Z throwprans: Man is prone to forgetfulness.
2018-01-03T08:24:58Z throwprans: back to lisping I go.
2018-01-03T08:25:02Z throwprans: cheers everyone
2018-01-03T08:25:05Z beach: Shinmera: I agree.  Maybe CLUS can fix some of that.
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2018-01-03T08:30:26Z Fare: That ASDF bug blows my mind. I have to page back in all the ASDF call graph in this ugly ugly part of ASDF.
2018-01-03T08:30:53Z Fare: I believe the fix will be simple, though, when understood.
2018-01-03T08:31:33Z Fare: It's about the notion of primary-system not being a matter of name (since there are misnamed secondary systems) but of what asd file you were loaded in.
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2018-01-03T10:17:22Z hajovonta: hello
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2018-01-03T10:26:51Z Younder: If you have a question, just state it.
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2018-01-03T10:37:35Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-01-03T11:01:46Z flip214b: there's an "libapache2-mod-lisp" package, does anybody have experience with it? is that better/faster than using mod_proxy and hunchentoot?
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2018-01-03T11:07:01Z fe[nl]ix: flip214b: no, it's old and unmaintained
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2018-01-03T11:17:29Z Xach: flip214b: http://xach.livejournal.com/144475.html
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2018-01-03T11:18:55Z flip214b: fe[nl]ix: okay, so hunchentoot + mod_proxy is the recommended way?
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2018-01-03T11:19:11Z flip214b: Xach: thanks, already knew that from the wikipedia page ;)
2018-01-03T11:20:48Z Xach: ooukkei
2018-01-03T11:20:59Z Xach: flip214b: i use nginx and proxying
2018-01-03T11:22:01Z flip214b: thanks a lot for the quick answer!
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2018-01-03T12:33:14Z mgsk: What's the "best" / "lisponic" way to do the equivalent of (in python) `for idx, elt in enumerate(list)'?
2018-01-03T12:34:12Z mgsk: Something maybe like (loop :for elt :in list :for idx :in <something> ...) ?
2018-01-03T12:34:14Z Xach: mgsk: (loop for i from 0 for elt in list do ...)
2018-01-03T12:34:40Z mgsk: The colons are unnecessary?
2018-01-03T12:35:07Z Xach: mgsk: they are not necessary. they are harmless and a matter of preference (mostly)
2018-01-03T12:35:42Z mgsk: (mostly) how?
2018-01-03T12:36:05Z Shinmera: The difference is where the symbols are interned.
2018-01-03T12:36:20Z Shinmera: Which is mostly irrelevant nowadays as the symbols are few and the memory is plenty.
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2018-01-03T12:41:04Z KZiemian: phoe: are you here?
2018-01-03T12:41:27Z KZiemian: althrough Christmas are behind us
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2018-01-03T12:41:39Z KZiemian: you can post your wish about CLUS
2018-01-03T12:41:47Z KZiemian: here
2018-01-03T12:41:48Z KZiemian: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues
2018-01-03T12:41:54Z phoe: KZiemian: yes, I'm working at the moment though
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2018-01-03T12:42:10Z phoe: still mostly doing things in my real life.
2018-01-03T12:42:49Z KZiemian: phoe: not problem
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2018-01-03T12:44:16Z JuanDaugherty: what is CLUS?
2018-01-03T12:44:17Z KZiemian: phoe: I just want be sure, that you get my information
2018-01-03T12:45:05Z JuanDaugherty: the spec I take it
2018-01-03T12:45:33Z KZiemian: JuanDaugherty: this is one year old, partly outdated manifesto https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/blob/master/paper.pdf
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2018-01-03T12:46:10Z KZiemian: phoe: and lack of respons sound worst than any message
2018-01-03T12:46:16Z JuanDaugherty: i c
2018-01-03T12:46:34Z KZiemian: JuanDaugherty: I can't tell you more or better than this paper
2018-01-03T12:46:47Z JuanDaugherty: it's clear
2018-01-03T12:46:49Z JuanDaugherty: ty
2018-01-03T12:47:03Z KZiemian: JuanDaugherty: ty?
2018-01-03T12:47:27Z JuanDaugherty: common abbreviation for thank you
2018-01-03T12:47:57Z KZiemian: JuanDaugherty: oh, I don't know that abbrevation
2018-01-03T12:48:48Z JuanDaugherty: np (no problem), your english is otherwise excellent
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2018-01-03T12:51:25Z JuanDaugherty: (since correct spelling isn't expected in irc)
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2018-01-03T12:53:36Z KZiemian: JuanDaugherty: so If you want some wish about it, create new issue
2018-01-03T12:55:06Z KZiemian: if we don't find more acctive contributors we need at least few months to end prepering new framework (in broad sens of word) to CLUS
2018-01-03T12:55:32Z JuanDaugherty: I'm good with the existing ANSI standard
2018-01-03T12:56:37Z KZiemian: so if someone have a wish, better tell in now
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2018-01-03T13:26:10Z francogrex: for debugging purposes do you use asdf:load-source-op or prepare-source-op?
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2018-01-03T13:27:31Z fe[nl]ix: use SBCL, force high debug  then compile-op :force t
2018-01-03T13:30:15Z francogrex: yes but compile-op needs to be loaded afterwards
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2018-01-03T13:31:47Z phoe: francogrex: use SBCL and SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY
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2018-01-03T13:37:23Z francogrex: phoe and continue loading asdf as usual using for example: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :ALEXANDRIA) ?
2018-01-03T13:37:56Z francogrex: right now I am doing (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-source-op :ALEXANDRIA)
2018-01-03T13:38:07Z francogrex: but so it seems not the right way
2018-01-03T13:38:37Z beach: Why do you insist on loading the source?
2018-01-03T13:39:58Z francogrex: because I use step afterwards. if i load the compiled I won't be able to single step unless....
2018-01-03T13:40:14Z fe[nl]ix: ... you use SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY
2018-01-03T13:41:54Z beach: francogrex: Or make sure you always have a high DEBUG setting, like in your .sbclrc.
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2018-01-03T13:44:40Z francogrex: (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) I have that. but still if i only load-op it won't single-step unless load-source-op. however with SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY maybe it will directly on the compiled allow me to single step
2018-01-03T13:44:56Z francogrex: to try
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2018-01-03T13:48:05Z oleo: #.(declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3))
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2018-01-03T13:48:13Z oleo: )
2018-01-03T13:48:14Z oleo: meh
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2018-01-03T13:50:17Z oleo: #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 3)))
2018-01-03T13:50:51Z oleo: maybe wrap an eval-when too....
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2018-01-03T14:18:34Z francogrex: ok thanks
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2018-01-03T14:26:39Z phoe: francogrex: OPTIMIZE settings can be overriddeb by the compiler
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2018-01-03T14:26:49Z phoe: (locally (optimize (speed 0)) ...)
2018-01-03T14:26:53Z phoe: and you can do nothing about it portably
2018-01-03T14:27:11Z phoe: that's where RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY comes in, as it's stronger than individual OPTIMIZE declarations.
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2018-01-03T14:27:34Z phoe: so you restrict it in .sbclrc, recompile everything once just to be sure, and boom, debug 3 everywhere.
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2018-01-03T14:34:11Z francogrex: alright
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2018-01-03T14:48:52Z beach: KZiemian: Here is another item for CLUS:  On the dictionary page for FORMAT, it doesn't say what stream is designated when T is given.  It would be good to mention that.
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2018-01-03T14:55:01Z KZiemian: I put CLUS state of work on GitHub
2018-01-03T14:55:02Z KZiemian: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues/34
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2018-01-03T15:09:56Z pjb: mgsk: you should use cl-python and see how it would translate it to lisp!
2018-01-03T15:10:33Z mgsk: pjb: _of course_ that's a thing
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2018-01-03T15:47:17Z flip214: Xach: in https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3179815377988891@naggum.net.html, I guess that the
2018-01-03T15:47:20Z flip214:    //--></script>
2018-01-03T15:47:29Z flip214: is a bug during conversion...
2018-01-03T15:48:12Z flip214: I've seen a few more similar HTML "injections", but a few of them matched the content or tone so I didn't wonder that much
2018-01-03T15:49:07Z Xach: hmm
2018-01-03T15:49:27Z flip214: not that it matters much, just a heads-up
2018-01-03T15:50:35Z flip214: (as #:Erik is famous for not loving Perl, I can't resist the guess that this is some Perl-RE-blunder?   ;)
2018-01-03T15:51:12Z Xach: Maybe, but not on my end. The archive is generated by a Common Lisp program.
2018-01-03T15:51:36Z Xach: I'll look into it
2018-01-03T15:51:41Z flip214: thought as much ;)
2018-01-03T15:51:56Z flip214: if you spend some time, please also fix the sort order (if you didn't already).
2018-01-03T15:51:58Z flip214: thanks a lot!
2018-01-03T15:53:19Z Xach: flip214: what is wrong with the sort order?
2018-01-03T15:54:36Z flip214: the "next" link sometimes points to older posts.
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2018-01-03T15:54:44Z flip214: same day, but wrong intra-day order.
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2018-01-03T15:56:10Z Xach: That won't be fixed, sorry. That happens to a small number of articles with ambiguous date fields.
2018-01-03T15:57:20Z flip214: the number is not that small... from memory, I'd guess I've seen some 30 or 40 mixed up posts, and I'm in Oct 2000 right now... but never mind, I can manage.
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2018-01-03T16:39:04Z sigjuice: why (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit)))) instead of simply (linedit:install-repl) ?
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2018-01-03T16:41:18Z phoe: sigjuice: what code are you refering to?
2018-01-03T16:42:02Z Bike: probably because that code is read before the linedit package is defined, e.g. in an asd file.
2018-01-03T16:42:14Z sigjuice: the instructions here on how to setup linedit: http://cliki.net/linedit
2018-01-03T16:42:44Z Bike: yep, i was right
2018-01-03T16:42:51Z Bike: that whole form is read before linedit is actually required
2018-01-03T16:43:15Z Bike: so if it was just (linedit:install-repl) sbcl would complain that there is no linedit package
2018-01-03T16:43:51Z sigjuice: what if I manually do (ql:quickload :linedit) first?
2018-01-03T16:44:16Z Bike: as long as "first" means "before the install-repl form is read" it will work.
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2018-01-03T16:47:59Z sigjuice: the cliki page has (require :linedit) before (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit) :wrap-current t)
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2018-01-03T16:48:13Z sigjuice: are 'require' and 'ql:quickload' equivalent?
2018-01-03T16:48:17Z phoe: not really
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2018-01-03T16:48:27Z phoe: but REQUIRE should create the linedit package anyway
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2018-01-03T16:48:46Z phoe: so you could (require :linedit) and then (linedit:install-repl)
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2018-01-03T16:49:00Z phoe: as long as you don't do stuff like (progn (require :linedit) (linedit:install-repl)) because that will crash
2018-01-03T16:49:43Z jmercouris: jasom: I saw your PR, thank you so much!
2018-01-03T16:49:43Z minion: jmercouris, memo from jasom: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/pull/56 <-- this fixes the ccl issue; I'll post my synchronous gtk solution later tonight
2018-01-03T16:50:21Z jasom: jmercouris: you were right, as a point of fact, that the ccl crash when not waiting was caused by an upstream bug
2018-01-03T16:52:01Z jmercouris: jasom: Yeah, I had a strong feeling because at that point I was doing nothing non-standard with the code
2018-01-03T16:52:46Z jmercouris: like it would crash on me just starting GTK, not doing any operations
2018-01-03T16:52:56Z jmercouris: I wasn't sure how much was due to my VM setup, SSH X Forwarding, some other config etc
2018-01-03T16:53:43Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm thinking of maybe using Fereda's version since he accepts PRS/ is updating it, what do you think?
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2018-01-03T16:53:59Z jasom: jmercouris: sure, I just googled "cl-cffi-gtk" and made a PR
2018-01-03T16:54:13Z jmercouris: I mean you are correct, that is the original author of it
2018-01-03T16:54:22Z jmercouris: How do I know which version of a lib is on quicklisp?
2018-01-03T16:54:47Z sigjuice: jmercouris you can take a look at the quicklisp-projects repo on github
2018-01-03T16:55:17Z jmercouris: sigjuice: ok, cool, thank you!
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2018-01-03T16:56:09Z jmercouris: Yeah, ql seems to be pointed to the crategus version
2018-01-03T17:00:36Z sigjuice: phoe yes (progn (require :linedit) ...) does crash.  why is that?
2018-01-03T17:00:51Z mfiano: Xach: Do you have any means to test Quicklisp on CMUCL?
2018-01-03T17:02:37Z phoe: sigjuice: let's talk about times in Lisp.
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2018-01-03T17:03:11Z phoe: simplifying things, there's three times: read-time, compilation-time, execution time. There are some other times as well, but let's skip them for now.
2018-01-03T17:03:22Z sigjuice: ok
2018-01-03T17:03:24Z phoe: during read-time, Lisp reads your data from strings or streams and turns them into objects.
2018-01-03T17:03:44Z phoe: it reads up "(progn (require :linedit)" properly.
2018-01-03T17:04:10Z phoe: then it reads "linedit:install-repl", which means, find me a symbol named "INSTALL-REPL" in package named "LINEDIT".
2018-01-03T17:04:17Z phoe: There's no such package at read-time.
2018-01-03T17:04:24Z phoe: So Lisp signals an error.
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2018-01-03T17:04:51Z phoe: It doesn't matter that you had (require :linedit) before. It was only read, but not evaluated.
2018-01-03T17:04:54Z Xach: mfiano: quicklisp the software? or all quicklisp projects?
2018-01-03T17:05:16Z mfiano: Xach: Quicklisp with one specific software
2018-01-03T17:05:31Z phoe: when you split your input into (require :linedit) (linedit:install-repl), Lisp first reads the first form, compiles it, evaluates it.
2018-01-03T17:05:45Z mfiano: I am hitting what appears to be a Quicklisp or ASDF issue with only 1 software
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2018-01-03T17:05:56Z phoe: Then reads the second form - successfully this time, because the first form created the LINEDIT package and all the symbols in it - compiles it, evaluates it. No error.
2018-01-03T17:05:57Z mfiano: and only on CMU
2018-01-03T17:06:23Z phoe: Okay, I'm done. That's the very short and brief introduction to times in Lisp.
2018-01-03T17:06:37Z phoe: *and most possibly incomplete and simplified
2018-01-03T17:06:41Z Xach: mfiano: I don't have cmucl handy at the moment. but in my experience most software is not tested with cmucl and problems can sneak in.
2018-01-03T17:06:44Z mfiano: Xach: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/c443bb674ff6f0e859bb9d6033ab359e
2018-01-03T17:06:47Z sigjuice: phoe: thanks a lot for taking the time.
2018-01-03T17:07:24Z Xach: hmmm
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2018-01-03T17:08:32Z Xach: mfiano: can you directly load defpackage-plus?
2018-01-03T17:08:42Z jmercouris: phoe: Does this mean that during a package definition, all :use are evaluated?
2018-01-03T17:09:04Z mfiano: Xach: I really haven't tried...this is a remote log from TravisCI that doesn't even get to the loading part.
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2018-01-03T17:10:09Z Xach: ah
2018-01-03T17:10:37Z Xach re-discovers that cmucl doesn't grok ~ in pathnames
2018-01-03T17:12:33Z Xach: mfiano: well I can't reproduce. it loads fine locally with the latest cmucl.
2018-01-03T17:13:05Z mfiano: How odd. Thanks for trying. I'll have to dig deeper
2018-01-03T17:14:25Z phoe: jmercouris:
2018-01-03T17:14:27Z phoe: clhs defpackage
2018-01-03T17:14:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2018-01-03T17:15:23Z mfiano: Xach: out of curiousity, can you load gamebox-math.tests?
2018-01-03T17:15:25Z jmercouris: interesting, so use does get executed it seems, unless I don't understand the docs
2018-01-03T17:15:34Z phoe: executed? one second
2018-01-03T17:15:44Z jmercouris: "The order in which they are executed is as follows" "2. :use."
2018-01-03T17:16:05Z phoe: the clauses.
2018-01-03T17:16:10Z phoe: not arguments of the clause.
2018-01-03T17:16:17Z jmercouris: Ah, ok
2018-01-03T17:16:23Z phoe: (defpackage foo (:use (concatenate 'string "COMMON-" "LISP"))) ;=> error, (CONCATENATE 'STRING "COMMON-" "LISP") does not designate a package
2018-01-03T17:16:26Z phoe: so they are NOT evaluated.
2018-01-03T17:16:48Z phoe: so you need to put package designators there, not something that evaluates to package designators.
2018-01-03T17:17:52Z jmercouris: phoe: I wasn't doing that anyways, so I should be good :D
2018-01-03T17:18:23Z jmercouris: So, anyways, my question stkill kind of stands
2018-01-03T17:18:35Z jmercouris: if you have a defpackage, and you :use something, how does it know what symbols exist from that given :use?
2018-01-03T17:19:24Z Bike: what is "it" here?
2018-01-03T17:20:21Z Bike: use is just a list of packages, though. packages have a use-list. when you try to find a symbol in a package, it'll check the use list if it has to, so whatever symbols the used packages define are available, it's not set in stone at defpackage time or anything.
2018-01-03T17:20:35Z Bike: i think.
2018-01-03T17:21:52Z Shinmera: clhs use-package
2018-01-03T17:21:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm
2018-01-03T17:22:35Z Shinmera: defpackage essentially just expands into an eval-when with all clauses and the respective package operations like export, import, use-package, etc.
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2018-01-03T17:23:57Z jmercouris: Bike: "it" being the lisp system
2018-01-03T17:24:12Z jmercouris: I've noticed it doesn't complain about symbols not defined if I :use them in a package
2018-01-03T17:24:38Z Xach: jmercouris: that's because it's just using the symbols for the strings that are their names.
2018-01-03T17:24:52Z Xach: (:use "FOO") and (:use foo) are (usually) equivalent
2018-01-03T17:25:10Z Xach: FOO is not a variable reference because it's not evaluated normally. defpackage is a macro.
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2018-01-03T17:26:01Z jmercouris: Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense
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2018-01-03T17:26:33Z Xach: i wrote a simplified clone of the package system to understand it better and i am happy to answer questions!
2018-01-03T17:27:18Z Xach: my hope was to write a better tutorial but i haven't done that yet :(
2018-01-03T17:27:26Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/zpackage/blob/master/zpack.lisp is the code
2018-01-03T17:27:33Z jmercouris: There's always tomorrow :)
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2018-01-03T17:28:11Z phoe: there, now CFFI's FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP supports advanced array options
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2018-01-03T17:28:20Z phoe: such as specialization, displacement and adjustability.
2018-01-03T17:30:29Z dmiles: oh good .. ok so i have this lisp impl i created.. and when i am at startup i have a flag that lets me intern and export new symbols like  sys:%foo wi5thout giving an error that %foo does not exist in system .. in cases %foo did exist I export it if the initial bootstrap code used : instead of :: .. al this was of my own design .. but is there some defparameter or some other variable that i could
2018-01-03T17:30:30Z dmiles: update or mimic?
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2018-01-03T17:31:43Z dmiles: i didnt see anything in readtable or package
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2018-01-03T17:32:50Z Bike: you can intern symbols whenever, dmiles. or do you mean that you want something like package locks, so that the user can't intern/etc symbols in certain system packages?
2018-01-03T17:33:49Z dmiles: the sys::%foo i support fine.. it interns .. but i wanted a way that the user would already know how to export as well as intern
2018-01-03T17:35:02Z dmiles: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/prologfns.pl#L75  <- here is sone intenral code where i have symbols getting exported
2018-01-03T17:35:52Z dmiles: i sporta expected it would have bene part of the readtable
2018-01-03T17:36:18Z dmiles: as far as an "option"
2018-01-03T17:36:28Z dmiles: even thugh it doent actualyl relate to readtable
2018-01-03T17:36:30Z Bike: why would the readtable even be involved.
2018-01-03T17:36:53Z dmiles: becasue thing like PACKAGE-READCASE are there
2018-01-03T17:37:01Z Bike: You mean readtable-case?
2018-01-03T17:37:08Z dmiles: *nod* right
2018-01-03T17:37:19Z Bike: Which relates to how the reader treats case in symbols, something that intern and find-symbol are completely independent of?
2018-01-03T17:37:46Z dmiles: right the interner would be independant of technically..
2018-01-03T17:38:19Z dmiles: so i was more asking if anohter impl uses the same hack i do and what they did to support
2018-01-03T17:38:37Z Bike: So there's no reason for the readtable to be involved.
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2018-01-03T17:38:55Z Bike: I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Do you want the reader to see a symbol, intern, and export it?
2018-01-03T17:39:00Z dmiles: correct.. other then the readtable actualyl intially deciding what the string will look like
2018-01-03T17:39:21Z Bike: Yes the readtable controls how the READER gets a string that is passed to intern. Intern doesn't do any case conversions or anything.
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2018-01-03T17:40:12Z dmiles: yes i'd like it so the user can tell the reader to see a symbol, intern, and export it
2018-01-03T17:41:05Z Bike: Okay. I don't think anybody does that. Why can't you just specify the package definition with all the exported symbols earlier?
2018-01-03T17:42:41Z dmiles: i can, and i can even have a flag in sys:*export-symbols*
2018-01-03T17:43:07Z Bike: This specification wouldn't involve the reader at all.
2018-01-03T17:43:22Z dmiles: but then i was thinking it be nice to not depend on packagfe locks to decide when i ignore that flag
2018-01-03T17:43:42Z dmiles: i understand.. trhe readtable should have nothing to do with it
2018-01-03T17:43:57Z dmiles: thats what i meant " <dmiles> right the interner would be independant of technically"
2018-01-03T17:44:39Z Bike: This *export-symbols* flag is the one that tells the reader to export symbols sometimes, right? I'm saying you should not have such a flag and the reader should not export symbols.
2018-01-03T17:44:40Z dmiles: and it was very ingnorant i should have mentined the readtable at all
2018-01-03T17:45:03Z dmiles: the reader has nothing to do with it
2018-01-03T17:45:11Z dmiles: why would you think it did?
2018-01-03T17:45:15Z Bike: Okay, so what does *export-symbols* do?
2018-01-03T17:45:29Z dmiles: it tens the intern code to also export
2018-01-03T17:45:39Z dmiles: tells*
2018-01-03T17:45:51Z Bike: There's no need for that either, then.
2018-01-03T17:47:22Z dmiles: eveytime i make a defparameter like *export-symbols* i have to write docs on it.. i am hoping someone lese did this as well and i could use their docs
2018-01-03T17:48:00Z Bike: If you got rid of the flag you wouldn't need to document it.
2018-01-03T17:48:02Z dmiles: or if they had a more eleegant design
2018-01-03T17:48:07Z dmiles: right
2018-01-03T17:48:44Z Bike: So here's what I"m saying. Don't have any flag like that. If you want a symbol to be exported, just export it, like call the cl:export function on it, or if you have defpackage specify it in :export.
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2018-01-03T17:49:15Z dmiles: so you are saying the better elegant design would be to yave it set up in defpackage .. right on
2018-01-03T17:49:48Z dmiles: (that is the design that is already expected)
2018-01-03T17:50:33Z jmercouris: jasom: The SBCL performance is so good!
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2018-01-03T17:51:10Z jmercouris: I think I'll put it as the default in the install guide for Linux
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2018-01-03T17:59:39Z dmiles: Bike: thank you btw
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2018-01-03T18:13:05Z DeadTrickster: jasom, jmercouris lparallel just for promises?
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2018-01-03T18:23:01Z jmercouris: DeadTrickster: Yea
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2018-01-03T18:24:02Z jmercouris: Xach: What does mode change -o do?
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2018-01-03T18:27:34Z Shinmera: Remove oper
2018-01-03T18:29:33Z Xach: jmercouris: i was hoping to ban the spammer but I was too late.
2018-01-03T18:29:48Z jmercouris: Ah, I see
2018-01-03T18:29:58Z jmercouris: You know what that text really reminds me of, it sounds like the TempleOS guy
2018-01-03T18:30:17Z jmercouris: He would have the knowledge and the desire to do something like that, maybe it is him
2018-01-03T18:30:47Z dlowe: Let us just ignore it.
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2018-01-03T18:39:42Z jmercouris: DeadTrickster: Did you get a chance to try the new GTK version? There's a couple features missing yet, like parenscript execution, and callback for "onload" of a webview, but is "kind-of" working
2018-01-03T18:40:46Z knobo2 is now known as knobo
2018-01-03T18:41:21Z knobo: Is there any where I can follow the status of asdf stability/bugs?
2018-01-03T18:41:31Z Shinmera: The asdf-devel mailing list
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2018-01-03T18:44:13Z knobo: Anyone knows the status on the bugs in 3.3.1 that breakes many projects?
2018-01-03T18:45:48Z Xach: knobo: There is no bug that breaks many projects.
2018-01-03T18:46:21Z knobo: Ok, I have misunderstood then.
2018-01-03T18:47:00Z knobo: I was thinking of what was mentioned here: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2017/12/december-2017-quicklisp-dist-update-now.html
2018-01-03T18:48:25Z knobo: Is it projects that has not been updated to the new asdf version, then?
2018-01-03T18:48:33Z DeadTrickster: jmercouris, not yet, I will "soon" though. have you tried SBCL?
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2018-01-03T18:52:03Z dmiles: for my auto-export thing (which i only use for the cold system right) now i swistched over the a primordial **BOOT-STATE**.. but of course the symbol (like before) have to trigger a PACKAGE-ERROR like "Symbol "XXXX" not found in the YYYY package"
2018-01-03T18:53:28Z dmiles: (or the other error like Symbol  "XXXX" is not found in YYYY package )
2018-01-03T18:53:41Z dmiles: oops is not exported
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2018-01-03T19:01:14Z jmercouris: DeadTrickster: Yeah, it works, I changed a bunch of things to make it work per jasoms instruction
2018-01-03T19:01:26Z jmercouris: Well, not a "bunch" of things, more like 2 things
2018-01-03T19:02:43Z Xach: knobo: yes
2018-01-03T19:04:19Z DeadTrickster: awesome, little bit easier to produce executable (at least for me)
2018-01-03T19:04:40Z jmercouris: DeadTrickster: What Distro are you running?
2018-01-03T19:04:55Z DeadTrickster: I have ubuntu and freebsd now
2018-01-03T19:05:17Z DeadTrickster: ubuntu is 17.04 and freebsd is current 12
2018-01-03T19:05:19Z jmercouris: I see, so you know how to make a standalone executable or one that uses shared libraries?
2018-01-03T19:05:27Z DeadTrickster: yes
2018-01-03T19:05:39Z jmercouris: So you know both?
2018-01-03T19:05:45Z DeadTrickster: yes )
2018-01-03T19:06:01Z jmercouris: Ok, cool, would you mind producing the Ubuntu standalone for the next release?
2018-01-03T19:06:20Z DeadTrickster: yes of course, when?
2018-01-03T19:06:21Z jmercouris: If you don't want to do it, that's of course no problem, I am just asking if you can since I'm a BSD/MacOS user
2018-01-03T19:06:38Z jmercouris: I hope to be done in 1-2 days with everything for an "alpha" for Linux
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2018-01-03T19:06:55Z jmercouris: So, I'm not exactly 7 days like I said in the issue on github, but pretty close :D
2018-01-03T19:08:38Z DeadTrickster: just ping me here or on github. see you
2018-01-03T19:08:58Z jmercouris: Ok, will do, thanks
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2018-01-03T19:15:02Z __rumbler31: jmercouris: you got a blog?
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2018-01-03T19:20:29Z jmercouris: __rumbler31 No, just a personal website, john.mercouris.online
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2018-01-03T19:21:38Z JuanDaugherty: blog - site - space , a bridge too far?
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2018-01-03T19:26:53Z sigjuice: jmercouris the 'Memory pressure relief' messages are coming from here. https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-webkit/webkit.git/tree/Source/WTF/wtf/MemoryPressureHandler.cpp?h=webkitgtk-2.18#n280
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2018-01-03T19:31:50Z jmercouris: sigjuice: It doesn't look like anything unusual I guess, do you know under which condition this log is fired off?
2018-01-03T19:32:33Z sigjuice: jmercouris not really, I'm afraid :/
2018-01-03T19:33:03Z jmercouris: It's possible that it's just a standard debug message do to the way the process is launched
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2018-01-03T19:33:28Z jmercouris: I'll take a look later into cl-webkit and see how the webview is actually instantiated
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2018-01-03T19:35:59Z sigjuice: also, when the gtk window appears for the first time, it is really small
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2018-01-03T19:39:08Z sigjuice: I guess that is how the gtk window is created.  (make-instance 'gtk:gtk-window ... :default-width 250)
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2018-01-03T21:02:08Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I didn't really notice that I'm on a tiling WM
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2018-01-03T21:04:01Z jmercouris: I will fix that, thanks!
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2018-01-03T21:33:16Z Ardx: hey
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2018-01-03T21:34:22Z Ardx: Can anyone direct me to a lisp/scheme that can be used in a proven, robust and modern IDE? These include vscode, visual studio, intellij, atom. Not emacs, or dr racket
2018-01-03T21:35:43Z _death: all of them can be used
2018-01-03T21:35:53Z jmercouris: A IDE does not enable or prevent the usage of a language
2018-01-03T21:36:08Z jmercouris: Also, VSCode, and Atom are not IDEs
2018-01-03T21:37:23Z jmercouris: Visual Studio is used for .net mostly, and Intellij is used basically just for Java, so what are you asking for?
2018-01-03T21:37:27Z Ardx: _death point me to a plugin with syntax highlighting, autocomplete, debugging, and error underlining?
2018-01-03T21:37:50Z jmercouris: Ardx: https://atom.io/packages/atom-slime
2018-01-03T21:38:09Z Ardx: In an IDE that has a file tree, can support multiple tabs, and has a working dark theme?
2018-01-03T21:38:21Z jmercouris: Ardx: Emacs has all of those things
2018-01-03T21:38:22Z _death: Ardx: I use emacs, sorry
2018-01-03T21:38:40Z Ardx: holy moly
2018-01-03T21:38:54Z Ardx: jmercouris that actually looks like something
2018-01-03T21:38:59Z jmercouris: Ardx: Do you think it is just one huge coincidence that we are mostly using Emacs?
2018-01-03T21:39:21Z Ardx: I just hate emacs tbh, tried to use it with clojure for ages and hate all the keyboard commands i need to remember
2018-01-03T21:39:55Z Ardx: Use it if you want, I just want to write lisp in a modern tool
2018-01-03T21:39:56Z jmercouris: There are no keyboard commands you have to remember, if you have vanilla emacs, you can type into it with normal keys, and there is even a menu bar with File-> Save, etc
2018-01-03T21:40:16Z jmercouris: What makes Emacs not modern?
2018-01-03T21:40:31Z jmercouris: The latest release of Emacs was within the past year, and why does modern equate to better?
2018-01-03T21:40:33Z Ardx: things like buffers, and ctrl+c/v not being copy paste
2018-01-03T21:40:58Z jmercouris: Ardx: Except for that Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V can be made as copy/paste keys, and there are Windows versions that have that built in by default
2018-01-03T21:41:17Z aeth: Emacs is a lot more modern when (1) you turn off tool-bar-mode and menu-bar-mode and (2) you give it a dark theme and (3) you shrink the font
2018-01-03T21:41:18Z jmercouris: Buffers are effectively tabs
2018-01-03T21:41:26Z aeth: you also need to use the graphical, not in-terminal emacs
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2018-01-03T21:42:22Z Ardx: I like having drag drop panes that show me file tree, document tabs, code, menu with debugging options etc
2018-01-03T21:42:30Z _death: https://i.imgur.com/YWYcb3a.png emacs is a modern os
2018-01-03T21:42:41Z jmercouris: Ardx: You haven't really described anything Emacs can't do
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2018-01-03T21:42:55Z Ardx: _death yeah thats the uglist thing Ive ever seen
2018-01-03T21:42:59Z jmercouris: Ardx: If you just don't feel like learning it, that's fine, but you can't argue that emacs is less capable
2018-01-03T21:43:10Z Ardx: Its not just about function
2018-01-03T21:43:30Z Ardx: look at vscode/subline/atom/visual studio/intellij etc all have a similiar layout
2018-01-03T21:43:36Z Ardx: completely departed from emacs
2018-01-03T21:43:57Z jmercouris: Ardx: Does that mean they are all correct?
2018-01-03T21:43:58Z _death: Ardx: if a baby sees his mother first, she's also the ugliest thing yet
2018-01-03T21:44:01Z jmercouris: That's a fallacy
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2018-01-03T21:44:14Z Ardx: not here to learn keyboard shortcuts and how to hide everything away, just want to edit lisp in a regular enviroment that I work in all day too
2018-01-03T21:44:28Z Ardx: to that end, thanks for the atom plugin link will check it out!
2018-01-03T21:44:41Z jmercouris: Ardx: So you are saying you are not interested in becoming better/faster?
2018-01-03T21:45:26Z Ardx: not sure where this is going now
2018-01-03T21:45:29Z jmercouris: Ardx: Not all interfaces have to be so strange looking: https://imgur.com/a/LhCA6
2018-01-03T21:45:49Z Ardx: lol
2018-01-03T21:45:54Z jmercouris: Ardx: I'm just suggesting keep an open mind, it is not a coincidence that the best developers are using heavily modified emacs and vi
2018-01-03T21:45:57Z Ardx: how do i set breakpoints in that?
2018-01-03T21:46:11Z jmercouris: I have removed the gutters on mine, but normally you can double click
2018-01-03T21:46:19Z __rumbler31: don't you click on the line on the margin to set breakpoints?
2018-01-03T21:46:31Z Ardx: best devs?? lisp isnt used anywhere?
2018-01-03T21:46:34Z jmercouris: I have it set to something like C-b b
2018-01-03T21:47:03Z Ardx: Different minds I guess, I prefer my IDE as visual as possible
2018-01-03T21:47:06Z jmercouris: Ardx: The inventor of ruby used emacs, and credits a lot his success to that
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2018-01-03T21:47:30Z __rumbler31: Ardx: what do you normally do?
2018-01-03T21:47:36Z Ardx: Man I know a lot of ruby devs that hate the lang
2018-01-03T21:47:44Z jmercouris: Ardx: I would say you rather prefer your editor as simple as possible, and making all decisions for you, and that's fine, but you won't score any points by criticizing emacs (unless of course your criticisms are accurate)
2018-01-03T21:47:59Z Ardx: c# + visual studio in my day job. Along with sql, js, web frontend etc
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2018-01-03T21:49:26Z aeth: Ardx: The problem is that every language that has an IDE has a different best IDE. And IDEs make a huge difference. C# in Emacs isn't a good experience, just like Common Lisp in Visual Studio isn't a good experience. The recommended IDE for CL is SLIME, which does many cool things. There are ports of SLIME outside of Emacs (e.g. vim), but they're not as featureful at the moment.
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2018-01-03T21:50:00Z aeth: Emacs is both a text editor and a platform, and it happens to be the platform for the Common Lisp IDE.
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2018-01-03T21:51:07Z Ardx: all languages have the same core concepts though: a set of files, code to syntax highlight, autocompletion on type, error underlining, a repl, and a compilation step
2018-01-03T21:51:08Z rme: And that is, IMO, somewhat unfortunate.  Emacs and SLIME do a lot, but you can write CL using any tool you like.
2018-01-03T21:51:45Z Ardx: Thats why things like the language service exist, and how a vscode/sublime can suport a lot of different languages
2018-01-03T21:51:47Z aeth: Ardx: Yes, all languages have the same core concepts, but they all tend to have a different "best" IDE. That's definitely unfortunate.
2018-01-03T21:51:52Z rme: But your editor has to know how to indent CL properly.
2018-01-03T21:51:59Z Ardx: ^ and a formatter
2018-01-03T21:52:02Z rme: practically speaking, that is.
2018-01-03T21:52:32Z aeth: Ardx: There is a server that CL can speak, used by SLIME and other IDEs. It's called swank. https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank.lisp
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2018-01-03T21:52:45Z _death: Ardx: this is wrong, and if you want to learn why, you need to suspend your disbelief and pick the environment that tends to be used by practitioners of a language
2018-01-03T21:52:59Z aeth: Ardx: The problem is that people hav eto support swank, and I don't think Microsoft (creators of Visual Studio) have an interest in CL.
2018-01-03T21:53:05Z aeth: s/hav eto/have to/
2018-01-03T21:54:25Z Ardx: Already said Ive tried emacs, was for quite a while too
2018-01-03T21:54:27Z aeth: CL is a fairly unique language, so converting it to something designed for a C# or Java workflow is probably not going to work. Common Lisp is unlike almost every other language because it's based on an interactive image. Smalltalk is also like that, and Smalltalk is the only other language I know like that.
2018-01-03T21:54:35Z Ardx: just doesnt live up to other editors like vs
2018-01-03T21:54:54Z aeth: Smalltalk is probably the only language more interactive than CL (it did it first, and it did it better)
2018-01-03T21:54:58Z jmercouris: Ardx: How long did you use Emacs?
2018-01-03T21:55:04Z Ardx: 3-4 months
2018-01-03T21:55:08Z jmercouris: Ardx: What did you use it for? What does your configuration look like?
2018-01-03T21:55:24Z jmercouris: Ardx: Did you try something like spacemacs? That seems to cater to the Atom type crowd
2018-01-03T21:55:39Z jmercouris: Ardx: http://spacemacs.org/
2018-01-03T21:55:56Z jmercouris: You can't tell me the aesthetics of that look bad, though I don't even see why that should be an issue
2018-01-03T21:55:57Z Ardx: Yeah thats the one I used
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2018-01-03T21:56:26Z jmercouris: At the end of the day, the choice is yours, but I cannot in good conscience reccommend another platform/editor
2018-01-03T21:56:33Z Ardx: Keyboard shortcuts for every little thing
2018-01-03T21:56:50Z jmercouris: Yeah buddy, we aren't programming with Wacom tablets believe it or not
2018-01-03T21:57:07Z Ardx: So you cant use a mouse?
2018-01-03T21:57:17Z _death: why would a programmer want to use a mouse
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2018-01-03T21:57:21Z jmercouris: Why should I? Am I programming in scratch?
2018-01-03T21:57:23Z cess11: rodents are slow
2018-01-03T21:57:27Z p_l: Ardx: FWIW, I seem to recall some work for VSCode
2018-01-03T21:57:32Z p_l: not sure how current it is
2018-01-03T21:57:41Z random-nick: if you don't like keyboard shortcuts then you can always execute a command by name using M-x
2018-01-03T21:57:47Z _death: do you use an onscreen keyboard
2018-01-03T21:57:48Z p_l: Also, not sure what's the level of structural editing for VSCode
2018-01-03T21:57:48Z Ardx: Heres the modern approach: Have menus , buttons etc interactive things. Also allow keyboard shortcuts. voila
2018-01-03T21:58:02Z Ardx: random-nick so I have to type more things? lol
2018-01-03T21:58:04Z jmercouris: Ardx: That's just the thing though, emacs DOES come with a menu bar and buttons if you want
2018-01-03T21:58:07Z p_l: Ardx: Emacs had interactive menus since I first booted it
2018-01-03T21:58:10Z Ardx: p_l sadly everything seems to be outdated
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2018-01-03T21:58:26Z random-nick: Ardx: well, that seems to be what you want, since using the mouse is just extra work
2018-01-03T21:58:29Z jmercouris: Ardx: What exactly is outdated?
2018-01-03T21:58:46Z jmercouris: I'm at a loss as to whether you are trolling or not, if you are, you did an excellent job, because this whole time I've been taking you seriously :D
2018-01-03T21:58:48Z p_l: Ardx: most editors don't provide enough stuff to implement comparable interfaces, or just require too much work (Eclipse)
2018-01-03T21:58:48Z phoe: this discussion sounds like #lispcafe
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2018-01-03T21:59:03Z p_l: Ardx: that said, I do seem to recall some pretty recent Atom and VSCode integration work
2018-01-03T21:59:13Z phoe: since it's about if emacs is outdated or not, and certainly doesn't concern itself directly with Common Lisp
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2018-01-03T21:59:32Z jmercouris: phoe: Well, the conversation is about the best Lisp Editor, it's ALMOST offtopic, but not quite
2018-01-03T21:59:36Z aeth: The real problem Common Lisp has is that its unique characteristics (shared with one of its main inspirations, Smalltalk) really works best with its own enviornment. And that environment doesn't exist. If you've looked into Smalltalks, you've probably noticed that they tend to come with IDEs because that's a big part of the Smalltalk experience. GNU Emacs is old, and it uses Emacs Lisp, which is basically Lisp stepping in a time machine bac
2018-01-03T21:59:55Z aeth: Lisp stepping in a time machine back 30+ years. But it's close enough, so people use it.
2018-01-03T22:00:18Z cess11: Ardx: try www.picolisp.com.
2018-01-03T22:00:36Z cess11: no need for an IDE, it's too small for those
2018-01-03T22:00:40Z aeth: But if you really get used to the Emacs+SLIME workflow, it provides a glimpse into what could have been, if there was more development effort in that direction. An experience you don't really get elsewhere, even though GNU Emacs really isn't perfect
2018-01-03T22:00:45Z Ardx: jmercouris this https://static.thegeekstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/emacs-editor-gui.png vs this https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ne3qd.png
2018-01-03T22:00:52Z Ardx: no trolling hah
2018-01-03T22:01:19Z Ardx: Just because emacs come with buttons doesnt make it better, though tbf spacemacs seemed to hide them from me too
2018-01-03T22:02:09Z jmercouris: aeth: Have you seen: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem?
2018-01-03T22:03:00Z _death: aeth: this is also wrong.. realize that Emacs Lisp is developed and gains more features every day, unlike Common Lisp which is stable and standardized.. there are IDEs for Common Lisp, like LispWorks and Allegro.. (there was that Cusp thingy some years ago)
2018-01-03T22:03:59Z aeth: _death: IDEs that cost hundreds/thousands of dollars in 2017 might as well be considered non-existant for most people.
2018-01-03T22:04:39Z _death: aeth: he can get the free version to learn if he doesn't want to use emacs
2018-01-03T22:05:05Z __rumbler31: tbf the money spent on developing vs is enormous, and the whole vs ecosystem does cost thousands to truly leverage
2018-01-03T22:05:13Z aeth: _death: Emacs Lisp was made intentionally archaic, e.g. dynamic scoping. RMS was an old Lisper. He was aware of the future of Lisp and rejected it. Emacs Lisp still gains features because it's so far behind Common Lisp and Scheme.
2018-01-03T22:05:31Z cess11: pretty sure Allegro has a express version
2018-01-03T22:05:31Z _death: aeth: if his aim is to actually learn lisp, which is not sufficiently proved imho
2018-01-03T22:05:32Z Ardx: have you tried the free versio of lispworks?
2018-01-03T22:05:38Z __rumbler31: ms just subsidizes the costs of giving away a free version of their editor since they need to provide a polished experience in order to drive users/devs to their platform
2018-01-03T22:05:41Z Ardx: This sums it up: "There is a time limit of 5 hours for each session, after which LispWorks Personal exits, possibly without saving "
2018-01-03T22:06:07Z __rumbler31: there is no such thing for lisp, so allegro/LW ides for a couple hundred bucks seem out of place
2018-01-03T22:06:22Z _death: aeth: you know you can enable lexical scoping by default nowadays, right?
2018-01-03T22:06:39Z aeth: __rumbler31: Microsoft killed a lot of markets like the commercial web browser market and the commercial IDE market (although the latter has somewhat made a comeback in recent years).
2018-01-03T22:07:01Z __rumbler31: oh I know!  I'm not saying its a good thing
2018-01-03T22:08:23Z __rumbler31: Ardx: the value proposition for emacs is thus: this tool might be clunky at first, but its so configurable that you end up making a custom fit glove over the course of your career
2018-01-03T22:09:13Z _death: Ardx: seems workable for learning the language
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2018-01-03T22:09:43Z aeth: _death: Afaik, Emacs Lisp can now sort of emulate Common Lisp, as quite possibly the slowest Common Lisp implementation out there, because it's emulating Common Lisp.
2018-01-03T22:09:52Z _death: Ardx: if you're allergic to the free, unlimited, hackable and customizable lisp env..
2018-01-03T22:09:54Z __rumbler31: since we edit text as a regular part of our work, once you can create modes that distill your editing down to your other mental models (like browsing between forms), you get to leverage your knowledge in a new domain, which is powerful
2018-01-03T22:09:58Z aeth: _death: So, all flaws are overcome with patches and turing completeness over time.
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2018-01-03T22:11:16Z aeth: __rumbler31: Emacs is a good example of why defaults matter. Default Emacs is terrible, but every Emacs user doesn't realize this because Emacs users have a mandatory 100+ line .emacs file and, these days, probably at least a dozen packages from M-x package-list-packages
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2018-01-03T22:11:19Z jasom: Ardx: SLIME is a proven, robust and nodern IDE
2018-01-03T22:11:20Z __rumbler31: I imagine one uses menus to discover what an interface can do.  If it never changes, eventually the most common commands will be memorized as key combinations anyways.  So imagine that your interface no longer EVER changes (like emacs) what you are left with after several years of use is exactly the environment you need
2018-01-03T22:11:51Z _death: aeth: not claiming it's more performant, or that it should be used for general purpose programming.. just that it's not stuck in the past as you described it
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2018-01-03T22:12:00Z aeth: __rumbler31: Emacs is definitely not designed for a good first impression, though
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2018-01-03T22:12:24Z jmercouris: They can't just change the defaults though without breaking everyone's config
2018-01-03T22:12:28Z aeth: _death: It's still stuck in the past. It's more modern features bolted onto a Lisp that was outdated at the start in its design.
2018-01-03T22:12:33Z jmercouris: So they are kind of locked in
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2018-01-03T22:12:59Z jmercouris: Unless they introduce some sort of "compatibility" layer or something I don't know
2018-01-03T22:13:06Z __rumbler31: aeth: yes, although I would say that sometimes with long enough timelines, getting the defaults right can be hard.  IIR the most popular editing constructs like copy/paste existed in emacs and vi before they became known as copy and paste and associated with C-v. C-c etc
2018-01-03T22:13:10Z _death: aeth: fine.. believe what you want.. me, I try to learn from the changes people (Lisp hackers, after all) make to it..
2018-01-03T22:14:11Z aeth: _death: All I know is that the style of CL I write is essentially impossible in Emacs Lisp, and even if it isn't, it wouldn't be fast at all.
2018-01-03T22:14:20Z aeth: And Emacs Lisp has had decades to catch up at this point.
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2018-01-03T22:16:19Z jasom: Ardx: and by that I mean 80% of why I use common lisp over other tools is that SLIME is the best development environment I've ever used, and lighttyears ahead of any freely available one.
2018-01-03T22:16:26Z _death: aeth: may want to read the current elisp manual sometime then
2018-01-03T22:16:35Z aeth: jmercouris: That's what they're doing. They're switching everything over to Guile (???) with a compatibility layer. Which is strange since elisp is almost CL-compatible and GNU has not one, but two CLs.
2018-01-03T22:16:57Z __rumbler31: to finish my point, your emacs will never change.  VS will change, while that timeline is covered in years, I don't care to keep chasing down where vs decided to hide that feature under whatever menu.
2018-01-03T22:16:59Z aeth: (GNU also has two other Schemes: Kawa and MIT)
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2018-01-03T22:17:55Z aeth: I suspect if Emacs picked CL, they could have made the transition 10+ years ago instead of still having a work-in-progress Guile port.
2018-01-03T22:19:12Z jmercouris: aeth: Yeah, the day Guile arrives, pigs will fly
2018-01-03T22:20:19Z aeth: jmercouris: I believe I read an FSF or GNU article about how Guile was going to become the standard GNU scripting language... and that article was from the 90s.
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2018-01-03T22:21:26Z aeth: The whole implementation-in-C, scripting-in-interpreted-Lisp approach is flawed imo. Just writing the whole thing in SBCL will probably as a whole be faster than mixing very fast with slow.
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2018-01-03T22:22:09Z aeth: Especially if it's as script-driven as Emacs.
2018-01-03T22:22:19Z jasom: is gnucash the only program that adopted it wholesale?
2018-01-03T22:22:25Z _death: sure, that's one thing that separates the boy languages from the men languages.. the former are written in some other language..
2018-01-03T22:22:30Z aeth: jasom: There are a few places. GIMP maybe?
2018-01-03T22:22:41Z drdo: aeth: it very much is
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2018-01-03T22:23:13Z p_l: Ardx: https://atom.io/packages/atom-slime might be of interest to you, it's afaik "still usable"
2018-01-03T22:23:25Z drdo: And it is especially bad when they invent their own crappy "scripting language"
2018-01-03T22:23:27Z jasom: to be fair, IMO cmucl was not ready for primetime on commodity hardware of the 90s
2018-01-03T22:23:34Z jasom: and sbcl didn't exist
2018-01-03T22:23:44Z jasom: and clisp was not a performance demon
2018-01-03T22:24:36Z p_l: Emacs current form predates clisp
2018-01-03T22:24:40Z aeth: jasom: Yeah. We finally have the fast implementations and fast hardware to do things properly today. A lot of strange decisions made 30 years ago were for performance issues that no longer matter, but we're stuck with those decisions, unfortunately.
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2018-01-03T22:25:15Z p_l: aeth: a bit of the problem is that GNU Emacs harks in its history to before Common Lisp and evolved separately
2018-01-03T22:25:22Z p_l: as for Guile extensions
2018-01-03T22:25:28Z _death: jasom: if rms wanted to pick the CL route, a GNU CL would've been developed.. gcl/clisp came afterwards
2018-01-03T22:25:30Z p_l: GNU make is one of the programs that adopted it
2018-01-03T22:26:18Z jasom: p_l: GNU Emacs was post CLtL1, right?
2018-01-03T22:27:05Z aeth: Yeah, Emacs's history goes back a long way. GNU Emacs's tutorial is actually mostly compatible with the tutorial for the original (not in Lisp) Emacs. I don't know if the tutorial was modified from the original Emacs or backported from GNU Emacs with minor changes made. https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/emacs/teach.1
2018-01-03T22:27:08Z random-nick: also, RMS prefers Scheme to CL
2018-01-03T22:27:10Z p_l: jasom: its lisp started before CLtL1
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2018-01-03T22:27:47Z p_l: jasom: the GNU branding might have happened after CLtL1, but the implementation is older
2018-01-03T22:28:19Z _death: random-nick: why do you think that?
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2018-01-03T22:28:32Z jasom: And CLISP is older than Guile, but was not licensed under GPL until about the same time that Guile was released
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2018-01-03T22:29:17Z aeth: Early GNU Emacs is still inferior to Lisp Machine Lisp, though. And RMS was aware of that. His name is on the later manuals.
2018-01-03T22:29:37Z p_l: CLISP is one of the old cases of "drive-by GPL viral attack" ;)
2018-01-03T22:29:53Z aeth: s/GNU Emacs/Emacs Lisp/
2018-01-03T22:30:12Z jasom: Don't link with readline, or your entire program becomes a derivitive work of readline...
2018-01-03T22:30:15Z p_l: GNU Emacs harks back to 1981 and Gosling Emacs
2018-01-03T22:30:44Z jasom: oh, CLtL was 1984, that's later than I thought
2018-01-03T22:31:01Z p_l: jasom: it's interpretation that is arguably thrown out today (case in point: Illumos and KVM, Linux and AFS/ZFS)
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2018-01-03T22:31:17Z random-nick: _death: I am not sure where I've heard that, but you can always ask him about that using email
2018-01-03T22:31:42Z _death: random-nick: sure.. I've not seen any evidence for that though
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2018-01-03T22:32:14Z random-nick: well, you can send a mail to rms@gnu.org and he will probably respond in up to 2 days
2018-01-03T22:32:29Z _death: random-nick: it's not that important to me ;)
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2018-01-03T22:38:46Z Ardx: well the atom lisp plugin is super nice, uses slime in the background too so finally I have all the features of a modern IDE with the power of lisp language. Sweet
2018-01-03T22:39:11Z Ardx: ciao
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2018-01-03T22:40:24Z Shinmera: All of the features, such as using a tonne of memory :^)
2018-01-03T22:41:23Z _death: a javascript editor..
2018-01-03T22:41:51Z aeth: Well, to be fair, Emacs bloated 10x since the "Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping" joke. I now open a fresh emacs to 81.5 MB RAM usage.
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2018-01-03T22:42:19Z aeth: So much bloat!
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2018-01-03T22:43:24Z p_l: ~240 MB here used by emacs
2018-01-03T22:43:38Z aeth: yeah, it's easy to get it above 200
2018-01-03T22:43:47Z p_l: 3 days, 6 hours
2018-01-03T22:45:34Z _death: just think, when you want to hack your own package or the editor's or someone else's, you need to write javascript :(
2018-01-03T22:45:37Z Shinmera: Atom uses more than that memory just after starting up and not doing anything.
2018-01-03T22:45:58Z Shinmera: Fresh instance, around 400MB RES.
2018-01-03T22:46:13Z Shinmera: Anyway, sorry for the o/t
2018-01-03T22:46:24Z aeth: 400 seems pretty low for what it is
2018-01-03T22:46:53Z aeth: What do Common Lisp editors start at? SBCL should give it about 95 to start with.
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2018-01-03T22:47:09Z aeth: (And, yes, other Common Lisps will be better with RAM)
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2018-01-03T23:13:00Z makomo: jmercouris: Ardx: Did you try something like spacemacs? That seems to cater to the Atom type crowd
2018-01-03T23:13:11Z makomo: what makes you say so?
2018-01-03T23:13:45Z makomo: i'm using spacemacs myself and don't like atom at all :D
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2018-01-03T23:14:23Z p_l: makomo: he quit, and apparently used spacemacs
2018-01-03T23:14:32Z p_l: gave him atom-slime
2018-01-03T23:14:51Z p_l: Spacemacs caters more to ViM/Mac crowd :)
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2018-01-03T23:15:12Z makomo: p_l: i know Ardx quit, but i was replying to jmercouris who is still here
2018-01-03T23:15:43Z makomo: p_l: i agree with the vim part, not sure about the mac part :D
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2018-01-03T23:16:58Z p_l: makomo: the mac keyboard seems to favour vimmers :P
2018-01-03T23:17:42Z makomo: meh, i don't like mac/apple either so :-)
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2018-01-03T23:17:46Z makomo: but i do like modal editing/vim's keybinds
2018-01-03T23:18:13Z makomo: it's an amazing thing tbh, one of the greatest contributions vim (vi) made
2018-01-03T23:18:51Z makomo: i really like the philosophy of having the keybinds of vim and extensibility of emacs
2018-01-03T23:19:06Z makomo: i.e. combine both of the two editors' best features to get something amazing
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2018-01-03T23:34:57Z jmercouris: makomo: I was saying the people who like a pre-built config would be more likely to be atom users
2018-01-03T23:35:51Z jmercouris: makomo: Nothing wrong with evil mode, but spacemacs makes 100% of decisions for you, and I find that people who use spacemacs don't deviate from that a lot, it's not a bad thing, it's just a different way of doing things
2018-01-03T23:36:26Z p_l: jmercouris: it's less "100% of decisions" and more "customizing spacemacs is an extra level of work"
2018-01-03T23:36:48Z p_l: and more related to how, for example, most people don't change basic emacs keybinds either
2018-01-03T23:37:08Z jmercouris: Well, I try not to change the core ones, I just add to them so that I can still use vanilla emacs
2018-01-03T23:37:09Z p_l: even when they have PDF-generating literate configs like my old one
2018-01-03T23:37:26Z jmercouris: nothing terrible about c-n, c-p, c-x c-f, though I'll usually use s-f for projectile instead etc
2018-01-03T23:37:43Z p_l: jmercouris: so on top of already complex beast (Emacs) you add essentially a whole application (spacemacs) which has its own approach to configuration logic
2018-01-03T23:37:54Z p_l: not many people share their modifications yet
2018-01-03T23:38:07Z jmercouris: yeah the "layers" idea, idk, not sure that was really necessary
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2018-01-03T23:43:37Z p_l: well, I find it quite interesting, just didn't get around to setting myself up, because the defaults support CL and Org quite well
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2018-01-03T23:53:05Z Shinmera: I'm still waiting on people to give feedback on Portacle's key set and help document.
2018-01-03T23:53:15Z Shinmera: Haven't heard a squeak about that from anyone
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2018-01-04T00:00:31Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Have you created a survey?
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2018-01-04T00:00:42Z p_l: Shinmera: projects like portacle are IMO done of the hardest to get such things for
2018-01-04T00:00:43Z jmercouris: I basically have never gotten feedback without explictly asking users
2018-01-04T00:01:07Z jmercouris: portacle is great btw, I think it's a great concept for new users
2018-01-04T00:01:16Z p_l: Many of the more knowledgeable people tend to have their idiosyncratic ways of setting up
2018-01-04T00:01:28Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I have not, no. There's currently more pressing matters.
2018-01-04T00:02:09Z Shinmera: p_l: Yes. I expect most people to just drop it without a word if they don't like it. That's one of my "fears" about all projects I have.
2018-01-04T00:02:46Z Shinmera: For Portacle (and most things, really) I don't even know how many people use it, let alone how many of those are beginners.
2018-01-04T00:03:23Z jmercouris: Shinmera: This is not just a "fear" this is a reality, if people don't like a piece of software they'll just loook for another instead of leaving feedback
2018-01-04T00:03:44Z Shinmera: I know, what I meant is that I fear most people will react that way, rather than a minority.
2018-01-04T00:04:05Z Shinmera: As in, I fear my efforts are going to waste without me knowing about it.
2018-01-04T00:04:11Z jmercouris: Ah, maybe they are
2018-01-04T00:04:19Z jmercouris: THat's the challenge with any business and/or project
2018-01-04T00:04:41Z jmercouris: There's a number of ways to figure out if your efforts are not wasted though
2018-01-04T00:04:57Z p_l: Shinmera: I think some work on getting Portacle in front of users is needed, not because of anything you do, but because gigamonkeys.com/book still gets people to look at Lisp in a Box
2018-01-04T00:05:12Z jmercouris: you could do a bunch of user studies, individually interviewing programmers to see if there is a need for such a tool, you could do test balloon posts on media platforms and see how people react to them, surveys you submit to a mailing list, etc
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2018-01-04T00:05:38Z jmercouris: If you believe you've made a good piece of software, and no doubt you have, the second part that is necessary is marketing
2018-01-04T00:05:47Z Shinmera: p_l: Yeah. I've also seen a couple of posts on reddit where people suggest some complicated manual setup rather than just linking to Portacle, so it's still obscure even among people already familiar with lisp and willing to help.
2018-01-04T00:06:07Z p_l: Right
2018-01-04T00:06:18Z p_l: Who owns lisp.com
2018-01-04T00:06:20Z p_l: ?
2018-01-04T00:06:24Z jmercouris: Shinmera: If your interested in marketing, there's a lot of good resources on /r/startups
2018-01-04T00:06:27Z Shinmera: cl foundation, I believe
2018-01-04T00:06:45Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I'm not. Marketing is one thing I loathe to think about.
2018-01-04T00:07:13Z Shinmera: Generally I don't like to put myself or my things out there.
2018-01-04T00:07:23Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Well, like it or not, it is necessary
2018-01-04T00:07:33Z jmercouris: it is a shame that you produce so many packages that are not well known, because they are quite useful
2018-01-04T00:07:40Z Shinmera: :shrug: it's necessary for some goals.
2018-01-04T00:08:10Z Shinmera: Reforming the lisp community or whatnot isn't one of my goals. I made Portacle primarily for myself :^)
2018-01-04T00:08:22Z jmercouris: I don't know what your goals are, but I think if you are writing software that you hope other people will find useful, it follows that you'd want as many people as possible to benefit from those pieces of software
2018-01-04T00:08:45Z jmercouris: and how can they benefit if they do not know?
2018-01-04T00:08:48Z Shinmera: Eh, it's more that I hope if someone finds it they won't tink it's a piece of shit
2018-01-04T00:08:55Z Shinmera: *think
2018-01-04T00:09:03Z jmercouris: you are not trying to sell them some useless bs, but you can provide tangible value to their lives by informing them of products that you make that they may be interested in
2018-01-04T00:09:18Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Well, at least one person thinks your software isn't shit, and that's me
2018-01-04T00:09:26Z phoe: (incf *)
2018-01-04T00:09:28Z Shinmera: Great to know! :)
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2018-01-04T00:10:17Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm aware marketing and all that can be beneficial for the target audience as well, it's just really not my deal. If someone else wants to do that, I don't mind, as long as I deem the thing being advertised as "ready".
2018-01-04T00:10:50Z Shinmera: I'll just continue on my (not so) merry way hammering out software, whether people use it or not.
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2018-01-04T00:11:55Z Shinmera: And currently the next step on that way is to snooze. Good night, everyone.
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2018-01-04T00:23:47Z aeth: How does Portacle differ from Roswell? I use Roswell to test my code on a bunch of implementations I wouldn't otherwise have easy access to
2018-01-04T00:24:18Z aeth: Roswell seems to be useful for testing, even automated testing
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2018-01-04T00:27:16Z aeth: Ah, it looks like Portacle only has SBCL
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2018-01-04T00:39:59Z mfiano: The difference is Portacle is an Emacs distribution and roswell is an implementation manager. Not much overlap there
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2018-01-04T03:16:36Z jmercouris: I'm using cl-webkit, and I want to pass a function to the callback, but apparently you are supposed to pass a SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER : https://gist.github.com/91d471ea63c8f601178bdfb2a1955493
2018-01-04T03:16:39Z jmercouris: any ideas on what this is?
2018-01-04T03:16:51Z jmercouris: I've never heard of such a thin
2018-01-04T03:17:02Z rpg: Is that the thing SBCL uses as a pointer?
2018-01-04T03:17:39Z jmercouris: that's what googling yielded, yea
2018-01-04T03:18:05Z rpg: Honestly, I read a bunch of stuff about SAPs, but never knew what it stood for!
2018-01-04T03:18:07Z pillton: It is not something created using cffi:defcallback? (https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html#Tutorial_002dCallbacks)
2018-01-04T03:19:03Z jmercouris: pillton: That looks promising, let me try putting that in that place
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2018-01-04T03:22:31Z jmercouris: the defcallback doesn't have to be a top level form does it?
2018-01-04T03:23:06Z pillton: I don't know. I only know of it. I have never used it.
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2018-01-04T03:24:13Z throwprans: Hello
2018-01-04T03:24:18Z throwprans: Is PCL open source?
2018-01-04T03:24:23Z throwprans: Can you suggest improvements?
2018-01-04T03:24:34Z jmercouris: PCL is a book, did you try contacting the author?
2018-01-04T03:25:19Z throwprans: Well, there is many a book that are "authored" out in the wild.
2018-01-04T03:25:21Z rpg: why would a web package need a SAP?
2018-01-04T03:25:33Z throwprans: Full with "web based" source control and what not.
2018-01-04T03:25:45Z jmercouris: rpg: javascript is executed asynchronously and upon completion a callback is fired, the webkit api is in C
2018-01-04T03:25:55Z jmercouris: or rather the WebkitGTK+ API is in C
2018-01-04T03:25:58Z rpg: jmercouris: Oh, that makes sense.
2018-01-04T03:26:14Z throwprans: rpg: example https://github.com/realworldocaml/book
2018-01-04T03:26:31Z jmercouris: So this is my first time touching any CFFI stuff, and I'm having a right challenge with it
2018-01-04T03:26:46Z rpg: jmercouris: Seems like that's just the sort of thing that a CL library should wrap up and hide away from you!
2018-01-04T03:27:15Z jmercouris: rpg: Seems like, but this, like cl-cffi-gtk is as thin of a layer as possible
2018-01-04T03:27:31Z jmercouris: the author does provide a macro called define-g-async-ready-callback, not sure what to does, could be what I need though
2018-01-04T03:27:38Z rpg: jmercouris: I'm a big fan of as thick a layer as possible! ;-)
2018-01-04T03:27:42Z jmercouris: s/to/that
2018-01-04T03:28:04Z jmercouris: rpg: Me too, I've developed a healthy distaste for gtk implementation details :D
2018-01-04T03:28:58Z rpg: I understand why it's so, but I'm not excited about libraries that are usable ... if only you know how to use the original C++, C, or Objective C API!1
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2018-01-04T03:30:24Z throwprans: All abstractions are leaky.
2018-01-04T03:30:33Z throwprans: But a good fat layer on top always helps, still.
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2018-01-04T03:31:50Z rpg: I mean, to be fair, we're a small community, which means we don't have the cycles to support lots of thick APIs.
2018-01-04T03:32:17Z rpg: I do understand that, and don't mean to insult the people doing the good work. Just wishing....
2018-01-04T03:32:42Z jmercouris: It is what it is, I just wish I was a better C Programmer
2018-01-04T03:34:54Z throwprans: on another topic, reading PCL, it goes "At least one of Common Lisp's original designers hated it. LOOP's detractors complain that its syntax is totally un-Lispy (in other words, not enough parentheses)"
2018-01-04T03:35:09Z throwprans: (lol "not enough parentheses")
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2018-01-04T03:35:39Z rpg: throwprans: You triggered the trap!  This is where I start ranting about how much better it is to use ITERATE than LOOP! ;-)
2018-01-04T03:36:54Z throwprans: So you're going to iterate that idea in a never ending loop?
2018-01-04T03:37:32Z rpg: seriously, for a number of reasons, I encourage people to use ITERATE.  It's not just that "it's more lispy," LOOP is a not-so-good domain specific language.  ITERATE gives you all the power, but in a way that fits better.
2018-01-04T03:37:52Z throwprans: I am only learning. So I keep what you said in mind.
2018-01-04T03:38:01Z throwprans: Until I learn to use Iterate and see how I feel about the whole thing.
2018-01-04T03:38:12Z throwprans: So far I really dig the "lisp-way" there is defs something to it.
2018-01-04T03:38:32Z rpg: throwprans: You should probably just leave LOOP and ITERATE alone for a while, and stick to the core of the language.
2018-01-04T03:39:01Z throwprans: Well, learning about Macros, it says it is important to understand loops and other control structures.
2018-01-04T03:39:07Z throwprans: Or so PCL claims.
2018-01-04T03:39:27Z jmercouris: Eventually you'll come across other code, and lot of people use Loop, so you should understand it
2018-01-04T03:40:20Z rpg: jmercouris is right, but still not a fan. We turned into an ITERATE shop.  Once you've read a couple of LOOPs with IF-THEN-ELSE-ENDIF in them, you'll know why!
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2018-01-04T03:41:31Z throwprans: But this is a thing of beauty though: (loop for x from 1 to 10 summing (expt x 2)) ==> 385
2018-01-04T03:41:38Z throwprans: Show me that with a do or iterate please :)
2018-01-04T03:41:44Z jmercouris: This is the macro I was saying I found https://gist.github.com/35966c2230d4683174aa1a3605319c42
2018-01-04T03:42:08Z aeth: throwprans: that's actually not efficient. You want something like series, which will ideally use the mathematical identity instead of actually doing the unnecessary loop
2018-01-04T03:42:35Z throwprans: Judging from what I know so far, I think I am gonna like loop, I am very much a man of pragmatism, dogma is no good.
2018-01-04T03:42:40Z rpg: throwprans: (iter (for x from 1 to 10) (summing (expt x 2)))
2018-01-04T03:42:41Z pierpa: I have almost never seen DO in real code
2018-01-04T03:42:44Z aeth: Actually is there a macro that knows the identity?
2018-01-04T03:42:48Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation#Identities
2018-01-04T03:43:12Z throwprans: rpg: That is actually nice.
2018-01-04T03:43:24Z throwprans: I like it as much as the do example.
2018-01-04T03:43:25Z aeth: pierpa: DO is literally just LET where the bindings have an optional increment, and then with a termination step before the body.
2018-01-04T03:43:39Z rpg: throwprans: The person who did ITERATE wanted to keep all the power of LOOP, only without the totally different syntax.
2018-01-04T03:43:46Z pierpa: I know what it is, still nobody uses it.
2018-01-04T03:43:56Z throwprans: rpg: is it part of ANSI Lisp?
2018-01-04T03:43:59Z aeth: A lot of people can't even read it, which is strange, because they probably can read let
2018-01-04T03:44:09Z throwprans: ANSI Common Lisp, that is.
2018-01-04T03:44:30Z rpg: throwprans: No, it's a library.
2018-01-04T03:44:34Z jmercouris: Apparently, defcallback should be a top level form
2018-01-04T03:44:36Z jmercouris: Interesting
2018-01-04T03:44:52Z throwprans: rpg: If it is so bloody good, why isn't standardized?
2018-01-04T03:45:07Z rpg: aeth: I find DO very hard to read -- there isn't enough structure to it for me to easily extract the return values, in particular.
2018-01-04T03:45:12Z pierpa: because it was written after the standard
2018-01-04T03:45:30Z rpg: throwprans: the CL standard is, alas, dead, and will never be revised. There's lots of history about why that is the case.
2018-01-04T03:45:53Z throwprans: So, CL as a portable language is frozen?
2018-01-04T03:46:07Z aeth: rpg: yeah, do probably would have been better with three clauses, since it sticks in the return value(s) in the same section as the terminating condition, but then that adds an extra thing that's not always used
2018-01-04T03:46:25Z jmercouris: rpg: Never say never https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z5-P9v3F8w
2018-01-04T03:46:48Z aeth: throwprans: (1) The standard is never going to be updated even though it's incomplete. (2) Don't put in the standard what can be put in a library.
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2018-01-04T03:47:02Z throwprans: How is the things in Scheme in regards to DO/LOOP/ITER?
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2018-01-04T03:47:14Z aeth: Even loop probably shouldn't be in the language. You can already do everything loop can do without loop, although it might not be as clean, especially collect
2018-01-04T03:47:15Z throwprans: aeth: 2 No.
2018-01-04T03:47:37Z throwprans: aeth: I strongly believe a powerful language has a complete "standard library" even if the language is light.
2018-01-04T03:47:56Z throwprans: But then again, is the standard library covered in ANSI Common Lisp Standard?
2018-01-04T03:48:32Z throwprans: With that being said, I don't know enough lisp to make a fair judgement.
2018-01-04T03:48:40Z throwprans: So I will go back to studying.
2018-01-04T03:48:48Z throwprans: It was a helpful conversation though. :)
2018-01-04T03:49:20Z aeth: throwprans: The de facto standard is the Common Lisp Hyperspec, a web version of the ANSI Standard that looks like it was released with web 0.4
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2018-01-04T03:49:25Z jmercouris: I have this terrible bug in nEXT, I can kill a tab with youtube, and it will keep playing the song
2018-01-04T03:49:36Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2018-01-04T03:49:46Z jmercouris: somehow it doesn't want to release the resource, so now I'm stuck listening to this justin bieber song :\
2018-01-04T03:49:48Z throwprans: Okay... just reading some more, loop seems to be it's own language.
2018-01-04T03:49:58Z throwprans: So I can see why it doesn't belong in lisp.
2018-01-04T03:50:01Z throwprans: (loop for i below 10       and a = 0 then b       and b = 1 then (+ b a)       finally (return  a))
2018-01-04T03:50:06Z throwprans: That doesn't read like lisp to me at all.
2018-01-04T03:50:18Z aeth: Loop is essentially a mix between a mini ALGOL-style language and list comprehensions
2018-01-04T03:50:34Z throwprans: still a handy "macro", if it was one.
2018-01-04T03:50:40Z jmercouris: It just started a new justin bieber song :'( what did I do to deserve this
2018-01-04T03:50:44Z aeth: (loop for i from 0 below 10 collect i)
2018-01-04T03:50:46Z throwprans: But I think the criticism is fair.
2018-01-04T03:51:15Z aeth: Simple loops are readable, although you might need to look some stuff up
2018-01-04T03:51:25Z aeth: The loops some people put together though... might as well be regular expressions
2018-01-04T03:52:01Z throwprans: loop isn't lispy enough. The PCL is unfair in making it an issue with "parentheses" joke.
2018-01-04T03:52:56Z throwprans: rpg: So would like to join the club. How do I install this iter library?
2018-01-04T03:53:05Z throwprans: Speaking of which, how do you manage deps in lisp?
2018-01-04T03:53:24Z jmercouris: throwprans: dependencies are usually managed by a system definition file (asd)
2018-01-04T03:53:58Z jmercouris: throwprans: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/
2018-01-04T03:54:04Z aeth: throwprans: There are three layers. CL itself comes with packages. These are essentially just namespaces for symbols. There are third party systems built on top of this. The overwhelming winner is ASDF, which has a concept called systems, defined in .asd files.
2018-01-04T03:54:20Z rpg: throwprans: Sorry -- I have to go AFK right now.  The system definition capability that jmercouris refers to is ASDF, and the easiest way for now to install libraries is to grab Quicklisp.
2018-01-04T03:54:26Z rpg: I'll probably be around tomorrow...
2018-01-04T03:54:39Z aeth: Dependencies are then managed through a "package manager" (although that name is inaccurate because it's a system manager) called Quicklisp, which works on projects, which are basically a set of systems
2018-01-04T03:55:05Z throwprans: I know of quicklisp, I had to install it to get vlime (vim + sbcl integration) working.
2018-01-04T03:55:10Z throwprans: So I will have a good look.
2018-01-04T03:55:14Z throwprans: rpg: catch you around.
2018-01-04T03:55:28Z throwprans: jmercouris: Thanks. reading through.
2018-01-04T03:55:55Z jmercouris: throwprans: Here's a trivial example: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/next.asd
2018-01-04T03:56:06Z jmercouris: You see I define a system called :next
2018-01-04T03:56:39Z jmercouris: if I say something like (ql:quickload :next), and this system definition file is located within my local projects dir, it will load all dependencies listed
2018-01-04T03:57:12Z jmercouris: so it will quickload :cl-strings, :cl-string-match, etc, which are also defined with ASD files, and so on and so forth until your dependencies are resolved
2018-01-04T03:57:13Z throwprans: I see.
2018-01-04T03:57:27Z throwprans: I think I will have to play around with for a bit before I grok it.
2018-01-04T03:57:46Z jmercouris: Yeah, but once you do, you'll see that you don't need to tuoch 99% of the spec, so try not to feel too overwhelmed
2018-01-04T03:57:49Z aeth: Packages do not necessarily have to correspond to systems, but they probably should to keep things simple.
2018-01-04T03:58:33Z aeth: Or, at the very least, there should be a main package with the same name as the system, even if you have other ones
2018-01-04T03:59:18Z jmercouris: throwprans: Packages are defined using defpackage http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2018-01-04T03:59:29Z throwprans: Anyone from gigamonkeys.com/ around? PCL book could really use some padding.
2018-01-04T03:59:51Z jmercouris: throwprans: You won't find the author here, it is not an open source project
2018-01-04T03:59:58Z jmercouris: just contact them with any suggestions you may have
2018-01-04T04:00:07Z throwprans: jmercouris: Alright, will do.
2018-01-04T04:00:12Z throwprans: For now, a userscript should do.
2018-01-04T04:00:32Z rme: PCL is a book first and a website second.
2018-01-04T04:00:41Z aeth: There are two styles for defining packages. The majority style is to have a package.lisp per directory (so usually just one, if it's just in one src directory or just all at the top level directory). The minority style is to have a package definition at the top of every file, and have one package per file.
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2018-01-04T04:00:54Z aeth: The latter makes things look a lot like Python or Java.
2018-01-04T04:01:09Z jmercouris: aeth: I've never seen a one package per file definition, why would someone do that?
2018-01-04T04:01:24Z aeth: jmercouris: It's an easy way to avoid name conflicts, for one
2018-01-04T04:01:43Z aeth: Frequently, you can only safely :use one thing other than :cl before you hit a name conflict
2018-01-04T04:02:26Z jmercouris: Hm, that's true, I prefer to have the full name though package-name:function because it allows me to identify code not native to my package
2018-01-04T04:02:42Z jmercouris: I might forget which functions I've written/have not written
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2018-01-04T04:06:06Z aeth: I only use prefixes for huge packages that are clearly designed to be used that way, like cl-opengl (in that case, the gl: or %gl: prefix)
2018-01-04T04:06:23Z jmercouris: Can someone explain the warnings I hget when I define a cffi callback: https://gist.github.com/f44d31f5b2195018cd23319eaa4d4675
2018-01-04T04:06:47Z jmercouris: it doesn't make sense that I get undefined variable: CALLYBACKY, when I've literally just defined it above
2018-01-04T04:08:25Z jmercouris: When I eval it via slime-eval-region it'll show callybacky in the message buffer, so it must be fine, but then it says "callybacky" unbound, YET it autocompletes within slime-company, what is going on here
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2018-01-04T04:13:30Z jmercouris: apparently you have to say (cffi:get-callback 'symbol)
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2018-01-04T04:14:04Z jmercouris: I somehow didn't realize that from the example here: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcallback.html
2018-01-04T04:18:12Z jmercouris: IT WORKED! Sure it crashes because my callback has the wrong args or something, but my callback was invoked!
2018-01-04T04:18:26Z jmercouris: We need a celebration bot on this channel
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2018-01-04T04:21:47Z jmercouris: I've gone through so many minion advice, and none of them are even slightly positive, I feel like I should program a new one called "friendly minion" that says friendly and nice things
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2018-01-04T04:27:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-04T04:29:17Z jmercouris: good morning
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2018-01-04T05:05:28Z sigjuice: morning!
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2018-01-04T05:47:39Z jmercouris: Is any of the ASDF metadata like author or license used anywhere?
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2018-01-04T06:16:40Z Zhivago: There are some sites which crawl projects -- I presume it might be used by those.
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2018-01-04T07:57:18Z jackdaniel: license is useful when you traverse dependency tree and see, what is a combined work license
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2018-01-04T08:27:19Z sigjuice: is there a package that provides a portable getenv function?
2018-01-04T08:27:27Z Shinmera: uiop
2018-01-04T08:28:16Z sigjuice: Shinmera thanks!
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2018-01-04T08:32:39Z sigjuice: hey I was just checkout out Portacle a couple of hours ago.  I noticed there were a couple of .git directories in the distribution.  Is that intentional?
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2018-01-04T08:47:11Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-01-04T08:47:51Z Shinmera: It's how I deliver updates that aren't binary.
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2018-01-04T08:49:51Z Shinmera: Binary upgrades are another feature currently missing from Portacle
2018-01-04T08:52:51Z sigjuice: binary updates is probably a tough problem
2018-01-04T08:53:22Z Shinmera: The basic idea is just to download the latest archive from github and automatically extract it over the existing installation.
2018-01-04T08:53:37Z Shinmera: Things get a bit complicated when you consider Windows though since you can't overwrite a running binary there, so
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2018-01-04T08:59:31Z sigjuice: Updating binaries that are being used: this is something I never really understood.  I have seen really weird inexplicable stuff even on Linux.
2018-01-04T09:00:19Z Shinmera: Well, something has to be running the update process, you know
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2018-01-04T09:30:53Z osune_: do i understand it correct that cl:decode-universal-time returns the timezone UTC offset inversed (multiplicated with -1)? E.g. I'm in UTC+1 , but the function returns -1 . If so, does somebody know the reasoning behind that? And while we are at it, what is the prefered / recommended calendar library for cl?
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2018-01-04T09:32:05Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/time zone
2018-01-04T09:32:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#time_zone
2018-01-04T09:32:26Z Shinmera: As for libs, local-time is about the best you'll get.
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2018-01-04T09:34:21Z osune_: thx I took a look at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/25_ad.htm but missed to look at the glossary
2018-01-04T09:36:31Z osune_: Shinmera: but the glossary just states "that's how it is" , is there a known reason `why` that is? I mean it seems counter intuitive for the use cases I can think of.
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2018-01-04T09:38:20Z Shinmera: Probably previous implementations' behaviour
2018-01-04T09:38:29Z Shinmera: Or rather, CL predecessors' behaviour
2018-01-04T09:39:17Z Shinmera: There's nothing about the direction of the TZ value in the issues, so that's the best guess I have.
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2018-01-04T09:41:24Z osune_: hm, I would lie saying that this is an answer that satisfies me. But I guess it has to. Thanks
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2018-01-04T09:44:00Z Shinmera: Another way to look at it is that the TZ is the difference between local time and UTC.
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2018-01-04T09:47:15Z osune_: I guess you can look at it that way, and maybe I didn't had enough exposure to TZ problems to appreciate it. But apart from your guess (inheritance) there seems no valid reason why one would choose to implement it that way, or at least expose this implementation detail it to the user
2018-01-04T09:47:41Z Shinmera: What do you mean, "expose that detail"
2018-01-04T09:48:52Z Zhivago: Is it describing what it did to a local time to produce a universal time?
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2018-01-04T09:52:09Z osune_: I mean: assuming that there is no benefit for solving specific problems by working with (- TZ), I assume that there are other reasons to use (- TZ) internaly. But as there are no specific problems which benefit from (- TZ) it doesn't make sense to expose this detail to the user. (decode-universal-time) could just return (- (- TZ)) and work with (- TZ) internal.
2018-01-04T09:52:31Z osune_: Zhivago: I'm not sure what you are asking ?
2018-01-04T09:53:24Z Shinmera: When you need to be compatible with existing systems you don't have a choice.
2018-01-04T09:53:53Z Shinmera: A lot of things in CL aren't there because that's what they thought was cool and great to have, but it's there because of the constraints under which CL was formed.
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2018-01-04T09:55:09Z osune_: Shinmera: sure that's a valid reason, which I'm not arguing. That's why I said "I take it as an answer". But this just propagates the question to "why did one existing system initially choose to behave like that"
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2018-01-04T09:55:33Z Shinmera: You're going to have to hit the history books for that.
2018-01-04T09:55:59Z Shinmera: Either way, as I said, seeing the TZ as the difference between local time and UTC (thus being "inverted") seems like a reasonable way to do things to me.
2018-01-04T09:56:00Z osune_: Hoped I could cheat this time ;)
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2018-01-04T10:04:19Z beach: I vividly remember having a hard time getting used to the current convention.
2018-01-04T10:04:39Z osune_: beach: can you expand on that?
2018-01-04T10:05:30Z beach: At the time, I just thought that east of UTC should be negative.
2018-01-04T10:05:41Z beach: It is just a convention, after all.
2018-01-04T10:06:05Z Shinmera: Just a matter of whether you think of things going from UTC or to UTC.
2018-01-04T10:06:14Z beach: It is not "intuitive" either way.  It is all about being used to one or the other.
2018-01-04T10:07:06Z osune_: Sure it is just that. But I was not aware that "East to UTC is negative" was ever a wide spread convention.
2018-01-04T10:08:10Z beach: Possibly.  But it is possible that there didn't used to be a convention at all, so Lisp implementers had to pick one.
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2018-01-04T10:13:29Z osune_: I'm reading up on the history of time zones atm and acording to wikipedia "By 1929, most major countries had adopted hourly time zones [with reference to GMT]. Nepal was the last country to adopt a standard offset , shifting slightly to UTC+5:45 in 1986" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone#Worldwide_time_zones Currently I'm looking through the different ISO standards for time zones and dates / time
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2018-01-04T10:16:17Z beach: You might try to look at the Maclisp manual and see whether the convention was the same as in Common Lisp.  If so, Shinmera is very likely right in that the Lisp function existed before the current convention was established.
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2018-01-04T10:19:23Z osune_: beach: thanks i'll have a look. It seems the first standard regarding representation of local time differentials was ISO4031 from 1978 , which was superseeded in 1988 by ISO8601. Unfortunately I don't find a public version of ISO4031. So it seems Shinmera is right with his guess.
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2018-01-04T10:31:32Z osune_: The MacLisp Reference Manual by Moon (1974) doesn't seem to even know about time zones :/
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2018-01-04T10:35:04Z Shinmera: More innocent times :)
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2018-01-04T10:36:31Z osune_: I have a friend searching for the ISO 4031 standard, maybe I'll find the "horrible" truth there :D
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2018-01-04T10:37:32Z aeth: ISO 8601, one of the best standards, and the only one I know by number.
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2018-01-04T10:45:05Z aeth: It's not just the negation, the actual timezone information itself is different iirc. ISO 8601 encodes DST directly in its UTC offset. CL can thus given a different UTC offest than Unix's (or is it just GNU's?) "date -Isecond"
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2018-01-04T10:45:43Z aeth: e.g. NYC is -04:00 during DST in ISO 8601 and is always +5 in CL afaik
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2018-01-04T10:46:18Z aeth: If I converted it correctly: (- (- hour-offset (if dstp 1 0)))
2018-01-04T10:46:54Z Shinmera: I really hate the thing about changing TZs with the DST, so I prefer CL in that regard
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2018-01-04T10:51:52Z osune_: yep that is a nice touch
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2018-01-04T10:54:21Z osune_: Well no luck: my friend says the truth hidden in ISO 4031 is so horrible that he has no access via the university he is working at. I'm assuming it contains eldritch type horrors which are better left untouched.
2018-01-04T10:55:06Z aeth: Turns out that that conspiracy theory about someone just making up hundreds of years of history was true and is incoded in ISO 4031? Incredible!
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2018-01-04T10:55:49Z aeth: s/incoded/encoded/
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2018-01-04T10:56:54Z osune_: Illig was right all the time !
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2018-01-04T11:25:34Z osune_: aeth: wait a sec . You said "Its not just the negation". I didn't read ISO 8601 , but your sentence implies that there it is stated something like "as it is known, in the west of Greenwhich the offset is positive in the east it's negative. But for what ever reason we negate the offset". Or do I missunderstood ?
2018-01-04T11:27:07Z osune_: s/do/did
2018-01-04T11:28:29Z osune_: or did your statement refer to the differences between CL and the standard?
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2018-01-04T11:54:59Z pjb: aeth: (- (- a b)) = (- b a)
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2018-01-04T12:47:40Z eviltofu: Heyo! How does one invoke the debugger in emacs for SBCL?
2018-01-04T12:48:00Z eviltofu: I would like to see the state of some variables.
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2018-01-04T12:49:00Z Shinmera: clhs break
2018-01-04T12:49:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm
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2018-01-04T13:13:08Z pjb: eviltofu: the function to see to see the state of some variables is: PRINT
2018-01-04T13:13:48Z hajovonta: or just type the variable name in the repl
2018-01-04T13:14:00Z Shinmera: hajovonta: I presume he meant lexical variables.
2018-01-04T13:14:36Z hajovonta: yeah and it may not invoke the debugger. except when it's undefined
2018-01-04T13:15:13Z Shinmera: "it"?
2018-01-04T13:15:49Z p_l: if someone has L-bus Symbolics in need of parts, there are boards for $200 on sale https://www.ebay.com/sch/71271.1417/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
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2018-01-04T13:44:29Z eviltofu: So when I insert a (break) into my code, I run it; when the debugger shows up. I type print "var name"?
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2018-01-04T13:46:40Z Shinmera: You can just hit return on the stack frame and it'll show you the lexical variables it knows about
2018-01-04T13:47:03Z Shinmera: ones it does not show won't be available anyway because they've been compiled away.
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2018-01-04T13:57:58Z Shinmera: In other news, Colleen can now provide lookup similar to specbot for most of my libraries and projects.
2018-01-04T13:58:16Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up 3d-vectors vunit
2018-01-04T13:58:16Z Colleen: Function 3d-vectors:vunit https://shinmera.github.io/3d-vectors#FUNCTION%203D-VECTORS%3AVUNIT
2018-01-04T13:58:52Z Shinmera: Colleen: radiance 2.5
2018-01-04T13:58:52Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, say, roll, set, mop, get, reload, ramble, login, grant,
2018-01-04T13:58:57Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up radiance 2.5
2018-01-04T13:58:58Z Colleen: 2.5 database https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#2.5_database
2018-01-04T13:59:02Z Shinmera: There we go.
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2018-01-04T14:23:22Z eviltofu: what is the stack frame?
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2018-01-04T14:23:58Z Shinmera: The backtrace in sldb is composed of stack frames
2018-01-04T14:24:12Z beach: eviltofu: Are you using SLIME?
2018-01-04T14:25:27Z beach: eviltofu: When the execution stops because of the BREAK, you will see a window with one line for each currently active stack frame.  If you put your cursor at the beginning of such a line and hit return, you should see the lexical variables that are still live.
2018-01-04T14:25:58Z beach: eviltofu: All that assumes that you compiled your program with a high value for DEBUG.
2018-01-04T14:26:28Z Shinmera: Or just the unit that you're breaking in. You can use C-u C-c C-c to compile a block with high debug.
2018-01-04T14:26:47Z eviltofu: I see restarts and backtrace
2018-01-04T14:27:00Z beach: The backtrace is the list of stack frames.
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2018-01-04T14:27:18Z eviltofu: ok so I highlight it and hit return
2018-01-04T14:27:41Z beach: You just put the Emacs point at the beginning of the line and hit return.
2018-01-04T14:27:43Z eviltofu: Thank you I see it now
2018-01-04T14:27:45Z beach: No hightlight.
2018-01-04T14:27:48Z beach: highlight.
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2018-01-04T14:29:09Z eviltofu: ok I can see my object, the hash table inside it
2018-01-04T14:29:12Z eviltofu: thats great
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2018-01-04T14:29:22Z eviltofu: Thanks
2018-01-04T14:29:40Z Shinmera: You can also inspect the values by clicking on them or moving the cursor to them and hitting return
2018-01-04T14:31:18Z Shinmera: (just clicking on a frame will also expand it btw)
2018-01-04T14:31:23Z eviltofu: Yes this is much better than printing the object
2018-01-04T14:32:05Z Shinmera: For values on the repl you can also easily inspect the last one with slime using M-x slime-inspect * RET
2018-01-04T14:32:48Z Shinmera: (you can substitute any other form the value of which to inspect for *, too)
2018-01-04T14:33:30Z eviltofu: C-c C-v tab
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2018-01-04T14:40:17Z eviltofu: ok so unrelated emacs question: can I ask here?
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2018-01-04T14:43:40Z Xach:  No
2018-01-04T14:43:48Z Xach: This is a channel for Common Lisp
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2018-01-04T15:09:44Z jackdaniel: eviltofu: try on #emacs
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2018-01-04T15:39:36Z malice: Anyone knows drakma? Can I somehow check headers of the request sent by http-request? I'm interested in headers created when using cookies.
2018-01-04T15:39:58Z Shinmera: I believe the manual shows a way that prints the sent data
2018-01-04T15:40:46Z malice: I'll check that. Thanks!
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2018-01-04T15:47:54Z Xach: malice: sometimes i use nc on localhost to see.
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2018-01-04T16:21:24Z malice: Xach: I will check that out too
2018-01-04T16:21:33Z malice: Though now I leave. Thanks Shinmera, it was in manual after all
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2018-01-04T18:16:50Z junxit: I'm using drakma to connect to several APIs, and one of them is coming back with "error:1407742E:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:tlsv1 alert protocol version" ... I have a call that works in curl from the command line (MacOSX), but doesn't work from drakma ...other API calls to different sites work fine.  I'm not sure what the next step in troubleshooting is, any suggestions?
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2018-01-04T18:31:51Z razzy: does anyone know about #ocp-storage open computing project?
2018-01-04T18:32:13Z razzy: sorry moving to lispcafe :]
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2018-01-04T18:39:34Z rpg: junxit: Just from reading that, I wonder if Drakma is doing the authentication wrong.  It looks like maybe you're using TLS and you have the wrong version?
2018-01-04T18:39:47Z rpg knows nothing about TLS or its versions
2018-01-04T18:40:20Z junxit: yeah, but I'm not finding how to change/force that ... it's weird that it is only the one site that does it.
2018-01-04T18:40:53Z junxit: I tested it on a remote linux box, and it works.  It also has always worked in the past *sigh*
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2018-01-04T18:41:06Z rpg: junxit: You probably need to figure out first if it's an error in Drakma, or an error in the remote site.
2018-01-04T18:41:49Z junxit: I tested the same call using curl from the command line (outside of lisp) and it works.
2018-01-04T18:42:12Z Xach: junxit: does it work if you use dexador? that's an alternative to drakma
2018-01-04T18:42:21Z Xach: I'm just curious - feel free not to try
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2018-01-04T18:42:42Z junxit: but drakma is working for other sites .. I'll give it a try
2018-01-04T18:44:16Z rpg: junxit: All the run with curl tells you is that curl and the remote site are compatible.  Unless you know how curl's behavior differs from Drakma's behavior, you are not much further along (except that you know that the remote site isn't just plain broken).
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2018-01-04T18:45:05Z rpg: A good start in debugging might be to look at curl's command-line options and see if there's some auth setting that will make curl *also* break.  That might help narrow things down.  Or you get into Drakma and start tracing things. Or both
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2018-01-04T18:46:35Z junxit: hmm ... dexador throws the same cl+ssl error
2018-01-04T18:46:55Z asarch: Is there any extension to Common Lisp to do presentations a la Racket?
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2018-01-04T18:50:12Z tomlukeywood: how would i initialise all the elements of an array with a value in common lisp?
2018-01-04T18:50:53Z rumbler31: junxit: are the problematic apis public?
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2018-01-04T18:52:15Z junxit: yeah, they're Jira APIs and it seems to be a problem with my laptop as it works on a remote linux box
2018-01-04T18:52:50Z junxit: maybe cl+ssl issue on macos or something
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2018-01-04T18:53:39Z junxit: both drakma and dexador throw the same SSL error  `A failure in the SSL library occurred on handle #<A Foreign Pointer #x1506150> (return code: 1).
2018-01-04T18:53:39Z junxit: SSL error queue:
2018-01-04T18:53:39Z junxit: error:1407742E:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:tlsv1 alert protocol version`
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2018-01-04T18:54:39Z rumbler31: https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/issues/4618
2018-01-04T18:54:51Z rumbler31: junxit: looks like you're not the only one
2018-01-04T18:55:19Z rumbler31: is your curl from macports/homebrew?
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2018-01-04T18:57:00Z junxit: @tomlukeywood use :initial-element or :initial-contents ... :initial-element sets all elements to the same value, :initial-contents you have to specify a value for every element in the array
2018-01-04T18:57:14Z tomlukeywood: thanks
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2018-01-04T19:00:08Z junxit: @rumbler31 new laptop, so not using macports/homebrew .. openssl and curl seem to be stock
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2018-01-04T19:00:23Z junxit: openssl version -> OpenSSL 0.9.8zh 14 Jan 2016
2018-01-04T19:00:23Z junxit:  
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2018-01-04T19:00:55Z rumbler31: can you replicate the error with the method in the issue?
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2018-01-04T19:02:56Z junxit: yep, 1795:error:140790E5:SSL routines:SSL23_WRITE:ssl handshake failure:/BuildRoot/Library/Caches/com.apple.xbs/Sources/OpenSSL098/OpenSSL098-64.50.7/src/ssl/s23_lib.c:185:
2018-01-04T19:05:09Z junxit: well, not exactly the same error, but seems close enough
2018-01-04T19:07:28Z junxit: I've been putting off an update to Xcode, I'll update and see.  If not, I'll install the homebrew version of openssl
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2018-01-04T19:08:51Z junxit: also, the same openssl command connects to the other sites that *are* working.  I'm going to guess that they updated the Jira server over the holiday, and it introduced an incompatibility
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2018-01-04T19:10:50Z junxit: thanks much, @rpg @rumbler31 and @Xach
2018-01-04T19:11:33Z rumbler31: gl!
2018-01-04T19:11:50Z tomlukeywood: i am trying to give constants as parameters to (make-array) however i get an error when doing so. what is the correct way?
2018-01-04T19:11:51Z tomlukeywood: https://hastebin.com/isejaqorud.lisp
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2018-01-04T19:15:04Z Xach: tomlukeywood: '(foo bar) evaluates is a list of two symbols. (list foo bar) will evaluate to a list of the value of two variables, FOO and BAR.
2018-01-04T19:15:17Z Xach: You want the latter.
2018-01-04T19:15:20Z tomlukeywood: thanks
2018-01-04T19:15:22Z junxit: ^^ that ... beat me to it
2018-01-04T19:15:49Z Xach: tomlukeywood: also, it's good to syntactically mark constants so they don't clash with other bindings.
2018-01-04T19:16:10Z tomlukeywood: what do you mean like myprogram-rows?
2018-01-04T19:16:34Z Xach: tomlukeywood: In CL I often see constants marked with crosses, like +rows+ and +columns+
2018-01-04T19:17:03Z tomlukeywood: ok will do
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2018-01-04T19:18:58Z rpg: I think Robert Strandh has a lisp style guide somewhere on the web that covers this sort of thing. It was very good, I thought.
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2018-01-04T19:21:11Z tomlukeywood: rpg: this? https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference
2018-01-04T19:21:42Z rpg: No: I was talking about a style manual, not a language manual.
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2018-01-04T19:23:12Z rpg: Google's is here https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml (haven't read it)
2018-01-04T19:24:03Z rpg: maybe I'm mis-remembering.
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2018-01-04T19:26:35Z rpg_: Actually, Robert Strandh's style guide is a PDF.
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2018-01-04T19:29:19Z rpg_: I can't find it any more.  If he's around, and doesn't object, I'd be happy to share it.
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2018-01-04T19:42:05Z shka: rpg: there are latex pdfs
2018-01-04T19:42:09Z shka: *sources
2018-01-04T19:42:20Z rpg: shka: Oh, where are they?
2018-01-04T19:42:28Z shka: one second!
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2018-01-04T19:46:58Z shka: rpg: i can't find it, i can swear it used to be in the SICL, though…
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2018-01-04T19:47:02Z shka: i will check git history
2018-01-04T19:48:08Z shka: yeah
2018-01-04T19:48:12Z shka: rpg: \chapter{General \commonlisp{} style guide}
2018-01-04T19:48:49Z shka: rpg: here it is https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Specification/chap-general-coding-style.tex
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2018-01-04T19:54:50Z phoe: github should auto-render TeX files in its preview, or at least offer it as an option.
2018-01-04T19:55:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: loop is lispy because a lisp is fundamentally just a way to write a bunch of domain specific languages to solve your problems in :)
2018-01-04T19:59:15Z phoe: LISP actually stands for Language Idiom Subdomain Protocol, which is a set of rules for developing custom DSLs to resolve particular classes of problems.
2018-01-04T19:59:36Z phoe: </lispcafe>
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2018-01-04T20:08:35Z phoe: gah, I want to sit down and work on the UltraSpec. real life knows different though and keeps on throwing health/family/various other real life issues at me. I don't expect to be able to sit down and focus on it for the next 2+ months.
2018-01-04T20:08:52Z phoe: and I God damn want to lead this projet to a successful end.
2018-01-04T20:08:55Z jmercouris: phoe: It's okay, it isn't urgent
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2018-01-04T20:09:11Z jmercouris: Whether it gets down now, or never, is okay, don't stress out about it
2018-01-04T20:09:17Z Shinmera: I don't think he thinks it's urgent, he just wants to work on it.
2018-01-04T20:09:33Z Shinmera: Similar to how I want to do pretty much anything except study for upcoming exams
2018-01-04T20:09:40Z jmercouris: Ah, I know that feeling
2018-01-04T20:09:44Z phoe: jmercouris: I'm just freaking sorry to let down all the people who offer me support at the moment and tell them that I'm not yet ready to lead the way.
2018-01-04T20:10:13Z jmercouris: phoe: Yeah, I can understand that, but it's okay, we are all human, with likely similar issues
2018-01-04T20:10:28Z jmercouris: phoe: If they are good people, they will understand
2018-01-04T20:10:32Z jmercouris: If they are not, then fuck them
2018-01-04T20:10:55Z phoe: I did a crapload of work converting things to DokuWiki and this work is right now pretty much useless for further work because I'm the only person around here right now who knows the details of DokuWiki format that I chose and the kinks and culprits of the current files.
2018-01-04T20:11:37Z phoe: I screwed up by that, I should have started from the beginning with distributed knowledge instead of knowledge that's stuck in my head and I have no time to sit down and utilize it.
2018-01-04T20:11:47Z jmercouris: Next time you'll do better
2018-01-04T20:12:00Z phoe: well, shit. the only excuse I have is, all things take their time in the land of Lisp.
2018-01-04T20:12:11Z jmercouris: I think it's a good thing to share your experience, because maybe someone reading this channel log will avoid the same
2018-01-04T20:12:33Z jmercouris: All things take time in life, it is not a race
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2018-01-04T20:13:22Z rpg: Is there anything like a PATHNAME-DESIGNATOR-P function?  Kind of hate to keep writing (or (stringp x) (pathnamep x))
2018-01-04T20:14:04Z Shinmera: Why would you need to do that anyway
2018-01-04T20:14:21Z jasom: can't pandoc  output DokuWiki?
2018-01-04T20:14:23Z Shinmera: All pathname functions take designators already so if something falls outside of that it'll error.
2018-01-04T20:14:37Z jmercouris: I didn't think try-catch was a lispy way of doing things
2018-01-04T20:14:59Z rpg: Shinmera: I have something like the case in CFFI -- I want to be able to supply an s-expression that evaluates to a pathname, in place of a pathname.
2018-01-04T20:15:10Z phoe: rpg: define your custom type PATHNAME-DESIGNATOR and use this.
2018-01-04T20:15:14Z jasom: jmercouris: handler-case is perfectly lispy
2018-01-04T20:15:18Z Shinmera: rpg: I don't understand
2018-01-04T20:15:43Z rpg: So it's (if (typep x '(or string pathname)) x (eval x))
2018-01-04T20:16:03Z phoe: rpg: it's pointless
2018-01-04T20:16:09Z phoe: this is equivalent to X
2018-01-04T20:16:18Z rpg: phoe: not if X is quoted
2018-01-04T20:16:20Z phoe: suh I mean, (eval X)
2018-01-04T20:16:23Z Shinmera: Strings and pathnames evaluate to themselves
2018-01-04T20:16:27Z phoe: ^
2018-01-04T20:16:32Z rpg: OK, good point.
2018-01-04T20:16:36Z jmercouris: jasom: Hey jasom, I was wondering, would you like to be mentioned in the release credits?
2018-01-04T20:16:43Z Shinmera: And the next question is: why are you using eval?
2018-01-04T20:17:12Z jasom: jmercouris: doesn't matter either way to me
2018-01-04T20:17:40Z jmercouris: Ok, cool, then I will probably mention you
2018-01-04T20:17:44Z jasom: jmercouris: thanks
2018-01-04T20:17:45Z rpg: Shinmera: I'm running experiments, and I want to dump a *portable* file designator into the output.  E.g., I want the experiment file to report that the data was in (asdf:system-relative-pathname "experiments" "datafile1")
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2018-01-04T20:18:25Z rpg: So I have a table of file designators that are s-expressions that can be printed into the script and then get evaluated to point to real files.
2018-01-04T20:19:03Z Shinmera: That tells me nothing about why you think you need to use eval?
2018-01-04T20:19:17Z shka: you shall not use eval!
2018-01-04T20:19:30Z shka: protect him from evil!
2018-01-04T20:19:52Z rpg: Shinmera:  those expressions are quoted (so they can be echoed).
2018-01-04T20:19:52Z _death: and live apply ever after
2018-01-04T20:19:58Z shka: :D
2018-01-04T20:20:24Z rpg: The quoted s-expressions are portable designators.  Namestrings are not
2018-01-04T20:20:27Z shka: rpg: why not program custom writer and reader?
2018-01-04T20:20:47Z rpg: This isn't a reader/writer problem.
2018-01-04T20:20:55Z Shinmera: rpg: Use a macro that emits a quoted and unquoted version. One for printing, the other for the value.
2018-01-04T20:21:20Z Shinmera: rpg: I still don't quite understand though-- what pathname do you want to output? The one in which your experiment resides or?
2018-01-04T20:21:31Z rpg: Shinmera: that just moves the EVAL somewhere else!
2018-01-04T20:21:39Z Shinmera: No?
2018-01-04T20:21:58Z jmercouris: Can anyone please help with a CFFI issue I'm having, getting the return back from a function: https://gist.github.com/875972985687a4d9d0f4afb80cb77975
2018-01-04T20:22:05Z jmercouris: I'm simply trying to print it to console
2018-01-04T20:22:23Z rpg: Shinmera: I want to emit into a transcript file the *portable* file designator (the asdf:system-relative-pathname expression), so that the experiments can be replicated, but I need to evaluate them to actually get the data to process.
2018-01-04T20:22:39Z rpg: I could spend an hour futzing around or type "EVAL".
2018-01-04T20:22:43Z jmercouris: Within my callback, "callbacky" I'm trying to get the value of: webkit-javascript-result-get-value
2018-01-04T20:22:57Z Shinmera: (defmacro foo (expr) `(list :value ,expr :expr ',expr)) ; (foo (make-pathname :name "a")) => (:value "a" :expr (make-pathname :name "a"))
2018-01-04T20:23:00Z Xach: rpg: If it were me, I'd store the arguments to asdf:system-relative-pathname and apply them later. I would not use eval.
2018-01-04T20:23:51Z Shinmera: Err, :value #p"a", but you get the idea
2018-01-04T20:24:51Z rpg: If this was more than a one off, I think you two would be right, but since it's a one off -- and not exposed to anyone to be a security threat -- these solutions smell like over-thinking.
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2018-01-04T20:25:19Z Shinmera: It's more about learning how to think properly.
2018-01-04T20:25:24Z Xach: but then what's the fun of irc :~(
2018-01-04T20:25:46Z jasom: jmercouris: that's printing a pointer
2018-01-04T20:25:59Z rpg: Shinmera: I know how to do this if I'm going to do it right, but there's also an issue of knowing what's the proper cost-benefit tradeoff.
2018-01-04T20:26:18Z Shinmera: I've yet to encounter a problem that I could solve significantly faster with eval.
2018-01-04T20:26:41Z shka: hehe
2018-01-04T20:26:50Z jasom: jmercouris: also if you named it scratchy.lisp instead of scratch.txt gist would syntax highlight it
2018-01-04T20:27:03Z shka: i will remember this quote "It's more about learning how to think properly."
2018-01-04T20:27:20Z shka: i will use in some dystopian s-f novel :D
2018-01-04T20:28:03Z Shinmera: shka: I'll want at least 90% of the profits off of that novel as royalties for that sentence.
2018-01-04T20:28:04Z jasom: jmercouris: reading the webkit docs, you get a pointer to a JSValue, the address of that pointer appears to be #X7FFFF002C830
2018-01-04T20:28:20Z Shinmera: shka: Just to keep things nicely meta-dystopian
2018-01-04T20:29:08Z shka: will do
2018-01-04T20:29:21Z jmercouris: jasom: I'll name em better in the future :D
2018-01-04T20:29:23Z jmercouris: I didn't know that
2018-01-04T20:29:45Z jmercouris: jasom: Right, but given that pointer, how do I get that value at that pointer in lisp?
2018-01-04T20:29:57Z jasom: jmercouris: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitWebView.html#webkit-web-view-run-javascript-finish
2018-01-04T20:29:59Z jmercouris: can I not just pass it to cffi:convert-from-foreign?
2018-01-04T20:30:17Z jasom: jmercouris: no, because you don't know what it is yet
2018-01-04T20:30:27Z jasom: you need to do the equivalent of the C code at the link I just posted
2018-01-04T20:30:38Z jasom: that decodes it as a string or prints a warning
2018-01-04T20:30:49Z jasom: if you don't know the type then you'll have to handle all the possible JS values
2018-01-04T20:31:14Z jasom: it's probably worthwhile to write a function to convert a JSValueRef to a lisp value, but you need to deal with NaN and Infinity that don't exist in lisp
2018-01-04T20:31:18Z jmercouris: But if you look on line number 19 you'll see webkit-javascript-result-get-value
2018-01-04T20:31:31Z jasom: jmercouris: that gives you a JSValueRef
2018-01-04T20:31:46Z jasom: it could be an array an object a string &ct.
2018-01-04T20:31:50Z Bike: most implementations use ieee floats i think, yhou just don't usually get a hold of them
2018-01-04T20:31:55Z jasom: any value representable in javascript
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2018-01-04T20:32:10Z rpg: Xach, Shinmera: I think there's a temptation to try to always to The Right Thing, but it's important also not to confuse production code with a utility script.
2018-01-04T20:32:48Z Shinmera: rpg: You can do whatever you want, naturally, but I can also criticise you for it. Your choice whether you want to let that bother you :)
2018-01-04T20:32:55Z jmercouris: jasom: So I need to make a JSValueRef?
2018-01-04T20:33:05Z jmercouris: This is really confusing me trying to go back and forth between the languages
2018-01-04T20:33:16Z jasom: jmercouris: no, result-get-value gives you a JSValueRef
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2018-01-04T20:33:24Z Bike: jmercouris: the c code here checks whether value (the result from webkit_javascript_result_get_value) is a javascript string, and if it is, makes a c string with its data. you'd have to do similarly.
2018-01-04T20:33:25Z jasom: jmercouris: you now need to decode that into something lisp can use
2018-01-04T20:33:26Z rpg: Shinmera: I concede that you are correct in the general principle.
2018-01-04T20:33:48Z jmercouris: Bike: So in my code example I posted, I just want to assume for now that the result is a string
2018-01-04T20:34:01Z jmercouris: Obviously I should check to see that it is an error and not a string
2018-01-04T20:34:03Z Bike: you still have to do JSValueToStringCopy or whatever, apparently
2018-01-04T20:34:12Z jmercouris: but why would cffi:convert-from-foreign not work?
2018-01-04T20:34:18Z Bike: because JSValueRefs are not strings
2018-01-04T20:34:21Z Bike: they are JSValueRefs
2018-01-04T20:34:24Z jmercouris: Ah shit, I didn't see that
2018-01-04T20:34:30Z Bike: any javascript value
2018-01-04T20:34:31Z Shinmera: IF you don't need to keep value identity you could just serialise to JSON and parse that lisp native, and back.
2018-01-04T20:34:33Z jasom: and JSValueRefs might *hold* strings but they aren't strings themselves
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2018-01-04T20:34:49Z jmercouris: jasom: that's the key part I was missing in my head
2018-01-04T20:35:28Z jmercouris: What an absolutely insane API
2018-01-04T20:35:31Z jmercouris: let me give it a try now
2018-01-04T20:35:52Z jmercouris: Thanks for catching that
2018-01-04T20:35:59Z phoe: my instincts tell me that if something is named *Ref, then it is a reference
2018-01-04T20:36:11Z Bike: how else would it work? if it can return any javascript value there has to be some kind of type information, it couldn't just be a c string
2018-01-04T20:36:18Z phoe: so you need to somehow get the object that it references
2018-01-04T20:36:26Z phoe: dereference it, in other words
2018-01-04T20:36:28Z jmercouris: Bike: It should ALWAYS return a string, because all javascript values may be represented by JSON
2018-01-04T20:36:35Z Shinmera: Not true, actually
2018-01-04T20:36:40Z jasom: jmercouris: no they can't
2018-01-04T20:36:45Z jasom: jmercouris: functions can't
2018-01-04T20:36:55Z Bike: that's like having a lisp system where everything was printed to string before being passed around
2018-01-04T20:36:59Z Bike: i'm not a fan
2018-01-04T20:36:59Z jmercouris: Okay, but how would one even use a javascript function returned in C?
2018-01-04T20:37:07Z Bike: call it, presumably
2018-01-04T20:37:13Z Shinmera: Or pass it as an argument somewhere
2018-01-04T20:37:16Z Bike: and what if it was a number? you want to parse it again?
2018-01-04T20:37:16Z jmercouris: How could you invoke from a C context?
2018-01-04T20:37:19Z jasom: jmercouris: you would pass it in as an argument to a function
2018-01-04T20:37:25Z Bike: some kind of JSCallFunction function, i guess
2018-01-04T20:37:36Z jmercouris: Okay, that's a use case, I concede :D
2018-01-04T20:37:47Z jmercouris: The Cocoa API is just so different I expect only a string
2018-01-04T20:38:02Z jasom: I *cannot* find the docs for JSValueRef anywhere
2018-01-04T20:39:12Z jasom: I found the apple version in ObjC though ....
2018-01-04T20:39:21Z jasom: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/javascriptcore/jsvalueref.h
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2018-01-04T20:39:53Z jasom: I'm guessing the interface is similar
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2018-01-04T20:43:52Z jasom just asked on #webkitgtk+
2018-01-04T20:44:57Z jmercouris: Ok, great
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2018-01-04T20:45:02Z jmercouris: I'm looking through cl-webkit as well
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2018-01-04T20:53:54Z jmercouris: Is there some sort of thing like sldb-eval-with-break, so I don't have to change the function and re-eval it with a break inside?
2018-01-04T20:54:12Z Bike: what would that do?
2018-01-04T20:54:16Z jmercouris: Better yet, is there a good guide someone may reccomend for debugging with slime?
2018-01-04T20:54:25Z jmercouris: Bike: I want to start a function and go through it form by form
2018-01-04T20:54:32Z jmercouris: examining values of things
2018-01-04T20:54:33Z aeth: osune_: I was refering to the difference between CL and ISO 8601.
2018-01-04T20:54:35Z Bike: oh, stepping then.
2018-01-04T20:54:45Z Bike: (i have no advice on that)
2018-01-04T20:54:50Z jasom: jmercouris: sbcl does have a stepper, I think you need to compile with a high level of debug for it to be useful though
2018-01-04T20:54:55Z jasom hasn't really used it
2018-01-04T20:55:15Z jmercouris: Hmm, okay, I see, yeah, debugging style isn't a very lispy way of dev I guess
2018-01-04T20:55:27Z jmercouris: There seem to be few faculties for support it and they are implementation dependent
2018-01-04T20:55:28Z jasom: jmercouris: it is, it's just stepping isn't that common
2018-01-04T20:55:41Z jmercouris: That's what I mean, like step through debugging
2018-01-04T20:55:41Z jasom: debugging in C is implementation dependent as well ;)
2018-01-04T20:56:17Z Shinmera: clhs step
2018-01-04T20:56:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm
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2018-01-04T20:57:04Z Shinmera: SBCL's trace can also cause a break
2018-01-04T20:57:12Z Shinmera: so you can use that to avoid recompiling the function
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2018-01-04T21:00:00Z jmercouris: Okay, thank you
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2018-01-04T21:01:48Z aeth: jasom: on the other hand, debugging in languages that only have one implementation is portable across all implementations
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2018-01-04T21:03:19Z phoe: aeth: ...by definition, yeah
2018-01-04T21:04:09Z jmercouris: jasom: So if you look in the C code you'll see I need to invoke JSValueToStringCopy, but this isn't provided by cl-webkit, how might I go about calling it? Do I have to do something like (cffi:defcfun "JSValueToStringCopy" :string) string-result (context JSGlobalContextRef) (value :pointer) ())?
2018-01-04T21:04:49Z jmercouris: How do I even know which library provides JSValueToStringCopy as in their example?
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2018-01-04T21:27:43Z rpg: Stepping is definitely available in Allegro, but only for code that's interpreted, not compiled, IIRC (may have improved -- don't use it much)
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2018-01-04T21:50:16Z jasom: jmercouris: the defcfun ought to work, assuming it's linked in somewhere; I haven't heard back yet from the webkit gtk channel yet
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2018-01-04T22:08:08Z osune: I do (funcall fn arg) but fn can have [0-n] arguments what is the idomatic way to declare a fn with zero arguments? I'm undecided between &rest and a declare / ignore
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2018-01-04T22:09:18Z osune: s/idomatic/idiomatic/
2018-01-04T22:09:25Z Bike: declare?
2018-01-04T22:09:33Z Bike: you just give it a nil lambda list. (defun foo () ...)
2018-01-04T22:09:35Z Bike: (funcall fn)
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2018-01-04T22:12:01Z phoe: wait, [0-n] arguments? what do you mean?
2018-01-04T22:12:16Z phoe: you don't know the arity of the function that you receive? the FN?
2018-01-04T22:12:41Z osune: yes
2018-01-04T22:12:51Z phoe: then how are you going to call it?
2018-01-04T22:12:52Z Bike: so what are you "declaring"?
2018-01-04T22:13:04Z phoe: you can't call a function whose arity you don't know
2018-01-04T22:13:11Z phoe: because you don't know how many arguments it will need.
2018-01-04T22:14:02Z phoe: I mean, you can always try, but Lisp is going to throw errors at you every time your Russian roulette doesn't work your way.
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2018-01-04T22:14:27Z osune: ok let me backpaddle a bit, because maybe i ask the wrong question and my problem is more my design
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2018-01-04T22:15:47Z Shinmera: phoe: ;) (defun call-anything (fn) (let (a) (loop (ignore-errors (return (apply fn a))) (push 0 a))))
2018-01-04T22:16:17Z phoe: Shinmera: ...I thought that not using IGNORE-ERRORS was implied
2018-01-04T22:16:40Z Shinmera: The ridiculous part of this isn't the ignore-errors
2018-01-04T22:16:47Z phoe: yes, correct
2018-01-04T22:17:00Z phoe: but there's more than one ridiculous part in it anyway
2018-01-04T22:17:35Z phoe: you just go (fn) (fn 0) (fn 0 0) ... until you hopefully get a result
2018-01-04T22:17:47Z phoe: which you won't if FN wants a string for example
2018-01-04T22:18:03Z phoe: you'll just loop until you hit CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT or you run out of memory
2018-01-04T22:18:09Z osune: I parse user input for a chatbot via cl-pprce. assume the commands "/echo foo" and "/ping". One takes a parameter the other doesn't. I split the string into the command and the argument parts. So i have a special case that my functions only take zero or one parameter. The function itself tries to parse the complete argument string.
2018-01-04T22:18:31Z phoe: so your function accepts exactly one argument, the complete argument string.
2018-01-04T22:18:47Z phoe: so you know the arity of your function.
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2018-01-04T22:19:22Z phoe: in one case you have ("/echo" "foo"), in the other case ("/ping" "") or ("/ping" NIL) depending on how you want to put it.
2018-01-04T22:20:56Z phoe: I wouldn't define functions with DEFUN for this though. my style, at least, would be to make an EQUAL-tested hash-table, and (setf (gethash "echo" hash-table) (lambda (arg-string) ...))
2018-01-04T22:20:56Z osune: yes. thats exactly my result after the first parse. Now i could do a (if arg (funcall fn arg) (funcall fn))
2018-01-04T22:21:16Z phoe: I wouldn't do this.
2018-01-04T22:21:39Z phoe: I'd rather do, for PING, an explicit (declare (ignore arg)).
2018-01-04T22:21:48Z phoe: this way, all of your functions are of arity 1, which simplifies things.
2018-01-04T22:22:23Z phoe: or rather, if you want PING to explicitly NOT want an argument, you can (lambda (arg) (when arg (error ...)) ...)
2018-01-04T22:22:39Z osune: I can see why lambda is a question of style and viable but having a named function helps a bit with debugging
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2018-01-04T22:22:52Z phoe: or something else. so PING returns "wrong syntax: use /PING without an argument" or something.
2018-01-04T22:23:08Z phoe: yes, that is correct. again, this would be just my style.
2018-01-04T22:23:25Z osune: well exactly what you are suggesting is what I'm doing currently: (defun ping (arg) (declare (ignore arg) "pong"))
2018-01-04T22:23:43Z phoe: yep, that is how I'd do it.
2018-01-04T22:24:27Z phoe: but then again, other people might have more valuable insight on the matter, so don't limit yourself to just my ideas.
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2018-01-04T22:24:30Z Shinmera: What I would do is handle the arglist parsing in a common place, define each command as a native lisp function, and then just apply the function to the arglist, reporting errors to the user.
2018-01-04T22:25:05Z Shinmera: Though actually what i would do is use an existing library like Maiden to do all of that for me :^)
2018-01-04T22:25:21Z osune: so I wondered if (defun ping (&rest) "pong) would be more idiomatic
2018-01-04T22:26:21Z osune: Shinmera: I heartly accept the shameless plug ;)
2018-01-04T22:27:31Z osune: But this is kinda a pet project to prepare myself for a reimplementation of a scheme midi sequencer , so I'll tinker a bit more and then take a look at it
2018-01-04T22:28:20Z osune: s/sequencer/controller/
2018-01-04T22:29:15Z Shinmera: osune: Anyway, something like this is what I would do: (defun ping () (reply "pong")) (defun handle-command (string) (let ((args (split string " "))) (apply (find-symbol (string-upcase (first args))) (rest args))))
2018-01-04T22:29:40Z osune: and as long I as cannot wrap my head around CFFI (libevdev/jack) I keep myself busy and keep learning
2018-01-04T22:29:41Z Shinmera: I say "something" since you probably want to throw your command functions either into a separate namespace entirely (preferable) or into their own package
2018-01-04T22:30:02Z phoe: osune: lone (&rest) in lambda list isn't valid
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2018-01-04T22:30:44Z osune: phoe: sorry meant (&rest r)
2018-01-04T22:31:02Z phoe: osune: then you need to ignore R
2018-01-04T22:31:12Z phoe: and we're back at the beginning
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2018-01-04T22:31:28Z phoe: except now your function accepts any arguments and ignores them
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2018-01-04T22:32:04Z osune: phoe: but is this better? for a function which doesn't know how it will be called?
2018-01-04T22:33:16Z osune: Shinmera: hm never played with find-symbol. I use a hash-table with :test 'equal to store the functions
2018-01-04T22:33:16Z phoe: osune: I would call it bad design to unnecessarily create functions that don't know how many arguments they will accept
2018-01-04T22:33:33Z Shinmera: osune: That works too
2018-01-04T22:33:52Z osune: so now I'm at the beginning it seems :D
2018-01-04T22:34:01Z phoe: but then again, depends on if you want things like "/ping foo bar baz quux fred" to work just like "/ping" would
2018-01-04T22:34:51Z makomo: Shinmera: what do you think about CLON for argparsing?
2018-01-04T22:35:22Z makomo: or Clon* perhaps
2018-01-04T22:35:28Z osune: well I think that is the real question ... should study maiden sooner than thought
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2018-01-04T22:36:04Z Shinmera: makomo: I've never used it, but it looked overly complicated to me and like it tried to do too much. When I needed command line arg parsing I used Fare's command-line-arguments lib
2018-01-04T22:36:10Z phoe: CLON is a mammoth. Which has its upsides and downsides. I settled for Fare's command-line-arguments instead.
2018-01-04T22:36:36Z makomo: hah
2018-01-04T22:36:47Z makomo: it does look complicated i guess, but that's only because argparsing is complicated imo :-)
2018-01-04T22:36:55Z Shinmera: makomo: Why are you asking me in specific, though?
2018-01-04T22:37:09Z Shinmera: I'm not in the habit of writing command line programs
2018-01-04T22:37:19Z osune: are both pure CL implementations ?
2018-01-04T22:37:19Z jmercouris: jasom: That's the challenge I guess :D
2018-01-04T22:37:26Z makomo: Shinmera: oh, only because i saw you talking about argparsing and mentioning libraries
2018-01-04T22:37:35Z makomo: osune: Clon is
2018-01-04T22:37:46Z Shinmera: makomo: What we were talking about is for a different kind of argparsing
2018-01-04T22:37:51Z makomo: fare's is as well i guess
2018-01-04T22:38:07Z osune: so can I throw unix-opts in the ring?
2018-01-04T22:38:17Z phoe: makomo: this discussion with osune is more about parsing function args inside Lisp, not on the boundary between Lisp and the OS
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2018-01-04T22:38:19Z Xach: there are at least 6 libraries for the purpose
2018-01-04T22:38:21Z makomo: Shinmera: oh lol, i haven't read the whole thing actually, only your last couple of posts
2018-01-04T22:38:26Z makomo: ahhh
2018-01-04T22:38:31Z makomo: nevermind then :-)
2018-01-04T22:39:15Z Shinmera: Arg parsing in Maiden is handled by this lil' piece of beauty: https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/blob/master/agents/commands/parsing.lisp
2018-01-04T22:40:42Z makomo: > ;; Remove inner cones
2018-01-04T22:40:45Z makomo: is cones a plural of cons :D
2018-01-04T22:40:52Z osune: Ok lets say "/ping foo" is a no go. An error will be generated and returned to the user. What's the lisp way to call my two functions with stepping the least toes of good Common Lisp style ? *takes a look at the link
2018-01-04T22:40:57Z Shinmera: makomo: Typos are a thing
2018-01-04T22:41:13Z makomo: Shinmera: shame, i thought you made it up :-)
2018-01-04T22:43:00Z Shinmera: osune: Calling a function with the wrong number of arguments causes an error. Your function may also error for other intended or unintended reasons. Therefore you need to catch all errors to report to the user anyway.
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2018-01-04T22:43:47Z osune: Shinmera: that's why I came up with (declare (ignore ...)) in the first place
2018-01-04T22:43:58Z Shinmera: I don't follow
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2018-01-04T22:46:07Z osune: I'll be back with a gist
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2018-01-04T22:55:29Z osune: I see currently these options and I'm unsure which is the "best" or if I'm completely wrong: https://gist.github.com/osune/88f900b70c8083457816d3ca834b2cf3
2018-01-04T22:55:55Z jmercouris: jasom: The only thing I can find is that same JS core stuff by apple like you found; https://developer.apple.com/documentation/javascriptcore
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2018-01-04T22:59:48Z jmercouris: jasom: There's like nobody on #WebkitGTK+
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2018-01-04T23:07:31Z Shinmera: osune: Here's what I would propose: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/690#690
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2018-01-04T23:09:02Z Shinmera: osune: The "event" is there so that you have a context to work with in your commands. For instance, so that the command "knows" which channel to reply to.
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2018-01-04T23:09:28Z Shinmera: Or rather, the event knows that and the reply function uses this information to do the right thing.
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2018-01-04T23:14:16Z osune: love it! it solves the whole problem via format and I'm happy that I can say my solution looks nearly identical , apart from the event mechanic . Thanks that was insigthfull
2018-01-04T23:14:40Z Shinmera: Sure
2018-01-04T23:15:10Z Shinmera: The error reporting of this approach is somewhat poor as you're depending on the implementation's errors to be insightful (which they are often not)
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2018-01-04T23:15:52Z Shinmera: A "proper" approach would manually parse and match a lambda list, like what maiden-commands does. But that's rather involved.
2018-01-04T23:16:00Z Shinmera: This first step should suffice for a good, long while.
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2018-01-04T23:20:34Z Shinmera: osune: I've updated the paste with a change that should improve error reports a bit.
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2018-01-04T23:24:02Z osune: Shinmera: thanks. you mean error reporting for malfromed (define-command ...) forms?
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2018-01-04T23:26:05Z Shinmera: osune: No, from the user invoking commands with the wrong argument form.
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2018-01-04T23:26:43Z osune: I take both for a testride to see what you mean
2018-01-04T23:27:08Z Shinmera: Well, I guess it also errors if you forget to specify the event argument,
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2018-01-04T23:29:27Z Shinmera: Anyhoot, it's 0:30 here and I'm off to bed. Good night.
2018-01-04T23:29:51Z osune: Thanks again Shinmera, I 've seen the difference
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2018-01-04T23:46:47Z jasom: jmercouris: negative
2018-01-04T23:48:00Z aeth: pillton: Is there a way to see the disassembly produced by specialization-store for a given defspecialization?
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2018-01-04T23:54:48Z aeth: Found it, it's (map nil (compose #'disassemble #'specialization-store:specialization-function) (specialization-store::store-specializations #'foo))
2018-01-04T23:54:57Z pillton: I was just typing that.
2018-01-04T23:55:30Z aeth: I was trying to call the slot names provided from the slime inspector (another way to get the disassembly), but your readers don't match your slot names
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2018-01-04T23:55:42Z pillton: Another way is to give the specialization a function name. (defspecialization (store :name %store/specialization)) (disassemble '%store/specialization)
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2018-01-04T23:56:42Z aeth: It looks like it produces exactly what I would produce by hand, with identical disassembly.
2018-01-04T23:58:49Z aeth: It also looks like it can be inlined, which is great for trivial functions if it works just like function inlining does
2018-01-04T23:59:24Z pillton: Yes. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-3:-Compile-Time-Support
2018-01-05T00:00:22Z pillton: You can even write the equivalent of a compiler macro for a specialization.
2018-01-05T00:01:57Z aeth: pillton: It's used like this, right? https://gitlab.com/snippets/1691616
2018-01-05T00:02:15Z aeth: (Although technically the fixnum one is incorrect because adding two fixnums doesn't necessarily produce a fixnum.)
2018-01-05T00:02:59Z pillton: Yes, though I would use template-function for this problem.
2018-01-05T00:03:06Z aeth: Well...
2018-01-05T00:03:16Z aeth: Technically fixnum is going to have a different implementation
2018-01-05T00:03:25Z aeth: If you want it to stay fixnum, you're going to have to do that.
2018-01-05T00:03:36Z aeth: e.g. staying at the max finxum size or having it wrap around with modulus
2018-01-05T00:06:00Z pillton: The image warping functions I have do that kind of thing.
2018-01-05T00:08:17Z aeth: So inlining does work exactly as expected if I do (defun bar () (foo 1f0 2f0))
2018-01-05T00:08:30Z aeth: With a not inline version of the same thing, in the disassembly I see #<FDEFN FOO>
2018-01-05T00:08:46Z aeth: How do I know that it's using the correct foo? Or is that the runtime dispatch foo? Is that because I'm doing that in the REPL?
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2018-01-05T00:10:20Z pillton: You don't know. You have the same problem with macros.
2018-01-05T00:10:39Z aeth: ah, never tell me I don't know
2018-01-05T00:11:08Z pillton: What? It is the same problem with macros.
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2018-01-05T00:11:15Z aeth: of course I know, I can just modify foo to print
2018-01-05T00:11:20Z aeth: :-p
2018-01-05T00:11:51Z pillton: Oh. The "You don't know." meant that it isn't possible to find out.
2018-01-05T00:12:26Z aeth: wait, nevermind
2018-01-05T00:12:37Z aeth: I'd need to modify the runtime dispatch version of foo to print
2018-01-05T00:12:52Z aeth: Or to insert a (break) or something
2018-01-05T00:13:04Z pillton: Oh, you mean the correct specialization?
2018-01-05T00:13:25Z aeth: pillton: If I introduce an observable side effect to the runtime dispatch, I can see if a given function is using runtime dispatch
2018-01-05T00:13:35Z aeth: right?
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2018-01-05T00:13:56Z pillton: I'd probably trace specialization-store:expand-store.
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2018-01-05T00:14:17Z aeth: Yeah, that's more elegant than redefining it to insert a print statement.
2018-01-05T00:14:35Z aeth: It's :: if anyone is following along at home
2018-01-05T00:14:49Z aeth: wait, it's neither
2018-01-05T00:15:13Z aeth: whoops, I wrote exapnd
2018-01-05T00:15:20Z aeth: The new anti-aliasing is terrible.
2018-01-05T00:16:41Z pillton: It should be exported. The expand-store function is part of the object protocol within SS's MOP.
2018-01-05T00:18:31Z aeth: Looks like the trace only shows up in the REPL when I do something like this: (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 1))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo))
2018-01-05T00:18:36Z aeth: It also shows up when I define any function
2018-01-05T00:18:52Z aeth: e.g. (defun bar () (foo 1f0 2f0)) or (defun baz () (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 1))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo)))
2018-01-05T00:19:53Z pillton: It all depends on when the implementation invokes compiler macros.
2018-01-05T00:19:59Z aeth: (oooh, I need to use (random 2)
2018-01-05T00:20:57Z aeth: This doesn't call the trace every time. (defun baz () (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 2))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo)))
2018-01-05T00:22:06Z aeth: I'm not sure if that's because it's really smart or if runtime dispatch uses something else
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2018-01-05T00:22:22Z aeth: (I mean, calling baz... defining baz will produce the trace)
2018-01-05T00:22:52Z pillton: Trace specialization-store:funcall-store.
2018-01-05T00:23:27Z pillton: Expand-store is invoked when the function is compiled to see if any compile time optimizations can be performed.
2018-01-05T00:23:56Z aeth: It still doesn't come up in SBCL
2018-01-05T00:28:47Z aeth: But they call the same function in the disassembly. In fact, if I disassemble a foo-fn and a foo-sf, it looks like they call the same function in the disassembly. At least, if that's what this means; "MOV EAX, #x2054DF78"
2018-01-05T00:29:27Z pillton: Trace specialization-store:specialization-function.
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2018-01-05T00:30:03Z aeth: that gets called
2018-01-05T00:30:24Z pillton: The function object bound to #'foo does not call funcall-store.
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2018-01-05T00:36:24Z aeth: Does this mean that when it's not inline SBCL always uses runtime dispatch to determine which foo to call, even when the types are known? e.g. (defun foo-sf () (foo 1f0 1f0)) (defun foo-fn () (foo 1 1))
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2018-01-05T00:36:30Z aeth: The same trace shows up in CCL
2018-01-05T00:37:27Z aeth: Interestingly, CCL gives a bogus warning when defining the functions themselves: In FOO-SF: In the call to FOO with arguments (1.0 1.0), 2 arguments were provided, but at most 0 are accepted by the current global definition of FOO
2018-01-05T00:37:51Z pillton: Yes. The standard specifies that compiler macros are not invoked when a function is declared not inline.
2018-01-05T00:39:12Z pillton: aeth: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/43
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2018-01-05T00:42:16Z aeth: pillton: Does specialization-store have a way to inline the dispatch but not the function itself? Sometimes that might be the most performant option, if the function is very large but the type of the arguments in the calling function is known
2018-01-05T00:42:31Z aeth: e.g. matrix multiplication
2018-01-05T00:42:58Z jmercouris: jasom: I've found very extensive docs within the webkit source code
2018-01-05T00:43:16Z jmercouris: jasom: https://gist.github.com/aee11eb30d5b6415bd1859e87302af69
2018-01-05T00:43:21Z jmercouris: I'm just kidding about the extensive part
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2018-01-05T00:44:16Z jmercouris: jasom: here's the interface file https://gist.github.com/d641b6ed92f35ae3fea76ddec14717b4
2018-01-05T00:45:03Z jmercouris: I wonder if JavaScriptCore ships with Webkit, or if it is a separate so file
2018-01-05T00:45:25Z aeth: pillton: I guess it's possible with a combination of named specializations and expand functions, where the :expand-function calls the named specialization?
2018-01-05T00:46:34Z pillton: aeth: Matrix multiplication is always part of a larger problem. If the larger problem wants to be efficient then it should declare the types.
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2018-01-05T00:56:35Z aeth: pillton: is it intentional that define-specialization cannot use :name and defspecialization can?
2018-01-05T00:57:20Z aeth: It looks like define-specialization doesn't support options, just the name
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2018-01-05T00:58:41Z pillton: Can you paste.
2018-01-05T00:59:12Z aeth: This is pointless compared to just inlining it, I was just combining the two things in the tutorial other than inline in one place
2018-01-05T00:59:19Z aeth: (define-specialization (foo :name %foo/single-float) ((x single-float) (y single-float)) single-float (:function (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) (:expand-function (specialization-store:compiler-macro-lambda (x y) `(+ ,x ,y))))
2018-01-05T00:59:37Z aeth: "No store exists with name (FOO NAME %FOO/SINGLE-FLOAT)."
2018-01-05T00:59:59Z aeth: And there's no problem with defspecialization: (defspecialization (foo :name %foo/fixnum) ((x fixnum) (y fixnum)) fixnum (+ x y))
2018-01-05T01:00:32Z aeth: I was just going off of https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-3:-Compile-Time-Support
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2018-01-05T01:01:26Z pillton: (define-specialization foo ... (:name %foo/single-float))
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2018-01-05T01:03:20Z aeth: The function COMMON-LISP-USER::%FOO/SINGLE-FLOAT is undefined.
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2018-01-05T01:04:56Z pillton: Looks like a bug.
2018-01-05T01:05:04Z aeth: (define-specialization foo ((x single-float) (y single-float)) single-float (:name %foo/single-float) (:function (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) (:expand-function (specialization-store:compiler-macro-lambda (x y) `(+ ,x ,y))))
2018-01-05T01:05:08Z aeth: This is the order, right?
2018-01-05T01:05:24Z pillton: The order shouldn't matter. The expansion is wrong.
2018-01-05T01:05:40Z pillton: I'll fix it over the weekend. I need to get back to work.
2018-01-05T01:05:46Z aeth: okay, thanks
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2018-01-05T01:07:53Z pillton: Thanks for trying that out. I don't mean to be rude. I just looked at the clock.
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2018-01-05T01:12:38Z jasom: jmercouris: that looks like enough to go off of
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2018-01-05T01:40:41Z jmercouris: jasom: Yeah, probably, I'll take my first try at making these kinds of functions
2018-01-05T01:40:52Z jmercouris: or whatever the forms called for declaring cffi interfaces are called
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2018-01-05T03:33:42Z krwq: hello, I'm using cl-dbi to fetch couple of million rows from the postgres db. Currently my sbcl's memory is being exhausted when doing that - on my side I'm not allocating it - I believe this is happening due to: https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-dbi/blob/master/src/dbd/postgres.lisp#L95 (reading whole db to a list) - does anyone know any better alternatives? should I switch to postmodern or are there any better alter
2018-01-05T03:33:42Z krwq: natives?
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2018-01-05T03:34:28Z pillton: Have you tried increasing the value given to sbcl --dynamic-space-size ?
2018-01-05T03:34:54Z Oladon: krwq: You might also try clsql
2018-01-05T03:35:32Z krwq: nope but I noticed that when I compile sbcl from sources and run gc in the loop it doesn't happen - the problem with newest sbcl is that some other libraries are not working correctly with it (I had problems with cepl and log4cl)
2018-01-05T03:35:42Z krwq: will try passing that
2018-01-05T03:36:00Z krwq: I feel like this is delaying the problem in time though...
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2018-01-05T04:27:22Z sigjuice: is there a utility that will fetch a copy of the upstream version of a quicklisp release?
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2018-01-05T04:34:35Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Git :D
2018-01-05T04:35:03Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I believe it was yourself that sent me the link to the QL repo/project mapping
2018-01-05T04:35:54Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I mean this repository: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2018-01-05T04:36:06Z sigjuice: yes, I did send you that link
2018-01-05T04:36:17Z jmercouris: conceivably it should be possible to write such a utility, could be pretty useful
2018-01-05T04:36:33Z jmercouris: if you want to work on such a tool I can help
2018-01-05T04:37:18Z sigjuice: jmercouris thanks for your offer! I figured I can't be the first person with such a wish, so I asked here.
2018-01-05T04:37:58Z jmercouris: I've never heard of such a tool, then again, I haven't heard of a lot of stuff :D best wait until Xach is online before departing on this journey
2018-01-05T04:38:00Z jmercouris: just in case
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2018-01-05T04:40:09Z sigjuice: so far I have been looking at the quicklisp-projects repo and manually fetching copies to my quicklisp/local-projects
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2018-01-05T04:45:20Z jmercouris: yeah, we could very easily automate it though I think, I have a feeling there is someway to do it already via quicklisp though, mayb
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2018-01-05T05:07:20Z jmercouris: is this user on IRC: https://github.com/vindarel?
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2018-01-05T05:25:47Z aeth: Interesting, people are doing JVM->WASM and WASM->JVM already. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16075933
2018-01-05T05:26:07Z aeth: (1) It could make ABCL usable
2018-01-05T05:26:18Z Zhivago: Javascript is the new C.
2018-01-05T05:26:22Z aeth: (2) It brings up an interesting idea of going WASM->Lisp
2018-01-05T05:26:44Z Zhivago: Why WASM->Lisp?
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2018-01-05T05:27:01Z aeth: Everything is going to eventually compile to WASM one day.
2018-01-05T05:27:11Z aeth: Now all of those things run on Mezzano too with a portable WASM->Lisp
2018-01-05T05:27:22Z Zhivago: Sure, so why wouldn't you be looking at Lisp->WASM?
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2018-01-05T05:28:09Z aeth: That's going to happen for sure. ABCL might work with JVM -> WASM and Clasp might work with LLVM -> WASM without much extra effort.
2018-01-05T05:28:24Z aeth: (They probably don't work yet, though.)
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2018-01-05T05:33:10Z jmercouris: aeth: you'll still probably want some layer in between to work with the dom and stuff like that though, you'll need to extend the language in some meaningful way
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2018-01-05T05:37:47Z jmercouris: that would be a good lib projec
2018-01-05T05:37:53Z jmercouris: wasm is still so young though
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2018-01-05T05:43:16Z dmiles: admittedly aeth's idea is appealing to have a WASM->Lisp
2018-01-05T05:43:31Z dmiles: are there x86 emulators in lisp presently?
2018-01-05T05:45:00Z rme: I have worked with a client who uses CL to model x86 cpus.  But not in the sense of "run Windows on this Lisp-emulated x86".
2018-01-05T05:46:24Z dmiles: yeah actually as i think harder (that is what i meant "run Windows on this Lisp-emulated x86") it would be an entire system like VM i would be thinking of
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2018-01-05T05:47:56Z dmiles: the benefits would be abstractions available on the level of the machine instance i suppose
2018-01-05T05:49:36Z dmiles: " system like VM " " system like VMWare"
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2018-01-05T06:53:52Z EvilTofu: Hello again! In (defmethod add-list-of-symbols-to-object ((alist cons))) where I add a list of symbols to something, is there a way to specify that the list has to be symbols only or should the code not care?
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2018-01-05T06:56:19Z pillton: No. Methods can only dispatch on classes and there is no class representing a list of symbols.
2018-01-05T06:56:28Z EvilTofu: ok
2018-01-05T06:56:50Z EvilTofu: so the (alist cons) doesn't actually work, I can just remove it
2018-01-05T06:57:15Z pillton: It should work since cons is a system class.
2018-01-05T06:57:26Z pillton: clhs cons/t
2018-01-05T06:57:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_cons.htm
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2018-01-05T06:58:21Z EvilTofu: okies thanks
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2018-01-05T06:58:34Z pillton: Note that the variable name alist usually represents an "associative list".
2018-01-05T06:58:46Z EvilTofu: Ok.
2018-01-05T06:59:00Z EvilTofu: I'll use some-list next time.
2018-01-05T06:59:04Z pillton: For example, the assoc function.
2018-01-05T06:59:05Z pillton: clhs assoc
2018-01-05T06:59:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm
2018-01-05T06:59:07Z jackdaniel: EvilTofu: check out https://github.com/pcostanza/filtered-functions
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2018-01-05T06:59:28Z pillton: My apologies: association list.
2018-01-05T06:59:31Z jackdaniel: it uses mop to give you more flexibility on method dispatch
2018-01-05T06:59:57Z EvilTofu: So I can actually provide two methods where one is a list of symbols and one where the parameter is a symbol.
2018-01-05T07:00:12Z pillton: There is also specialization-store which allows you to dispatch on type.
2018-01-05T07:00:25Z EvilTofu: okies, will look into these.
2018-01-05T07:00:37Z pillton shamelessly advertises himself.
2018-01-05T07:01:52Z jackdaniel: oh, its yourse :)
2018-01-05T07:01:54Z jackdaniel: yours*
2018-01-05T07:02:05Z pillton: I didn't know about filtered functions.
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2018-01-05T07:14:02Z hibikelel: Hello
2018-01-05T07:14:22Z hibikelel: Wondering if there's somebody up this late who can help me with a bit of a quandry
2018-01-05T07:15:16Z hibikelel: I'm a novice programmer, and even that's stretching it, I've got a very shallow knowledge of a wide number of languages but couldn't code my way out of a paper bag when you get down to it
2018-01-05T07:16:01Z hibikelel: Out of all the languages I've messed around with Lisp seems to be the only language/family I can see myself doing any long-term work in, at least for fun
2018-01-05T07:17:22Z hibikelel: Dedided I'd work on a much larger project, really test my skills, I've never done anything with 3d graphics before so I figured I'd tinker around, trouble is there doesn't seem to be any libraries written, in racket anyway, for any openGL implementation after 1.5 which is pretty out of date at this point
2018-01-05T07:18:53Z hibikelel: Should I just switch to another language or might it be worth writing some wrapper functions for a C graphics lib
2018-01-05T07:19:11Z |3b|: #scheme or #racket might know more about scheme/racket bindings, this channel is mostly about common lisp, for which there is cl-opengl
2018-01-05T07:19:46Z JuanDaugherty: RECOMMEND: reevaluate your judgement on the graphics library, do more research and go with best you can find in time you have
2018-01-05T07:20:00Z hibikelel: You know I've been bouncing between implementations for a while and I'm not against using CL, I guess I'll give that a shot
2018-01-05T07:20:35Z JuanDaugherty: and obviously continue with lisp, but there is a cl vs scheme decision to make
2018-01-05T07:20:41Z hibikelel: Worked through most of SICP, read a bunch of Scheme books, Little Schemer, then Realm of Racket, about halfway through HTDP
2018-01-05T07:21:14Z JuanDaugherty: how long since you wrote your first program?
2018-01-05T07:21:22Z hibikelel: Never done any 'serious' work however, and while it's a true statement that I have no idea what the fcuk I'm doing I feel I know enough to figure it out
2018-01-05T07:21:48Z JuanDaugherty: programming and programming for a living are two quite different things
2018-01-05T07:22:15Z hibikelel: Let's see... I must have written my first real python program in 2014 but I didn't keep up with it, I did about jack shit until I wanna say three months ago
2018-01-05T07:22:25Z hibikelel: Always felt like it was beyond me
2018-01-05T07:23:00Z EvilTofu: If I want a function that adds a connection from one node to another (add-connection node1 node2) but I want the option of a bidirectional connection and want a (add-connection node1 node2 :bidirectional), how should this be implemented? And is this a valid lisp way of doing this?
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2018-01-05T07:23:38Z hibikelel: Built up the vocabulary, finally beat it into my skull what exactly constitutes a class (no I didn't, every language changes it around) and I have trouble staying on one language when I get bored, I've got knowledge as broad as a gorge, deep as a puddle
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2018-01-05T07:23:47Z EvilTofu: I use (defun add-connection (n1 n2 &rest keywords) ... ) ?
2018-01-05T07:24:03Z hibikelel: I've probably made it through the first half of close to a dozen different books on nearly as many languages, and god knows how many tutorials
2018-01-05T07:24:04Z JuanDaugherty: in computer programming, unlike comparable professions, there's a forced dilletantism that comes from the impact of its history and role in the capital system
2018-01-05T07:24:34Z |3b|: EvilTofu: usually you would have (add-connection node1 node2 :bidirectional t), and use &key
2018-01-05T07:24:40Z JuanDaugherty: so even before the decisions mentioned there seems to be one of seriousness
2018-01-05T07:24:45Z EvilTofu: okies
2018-01-05T07:25:20Z EvilTofu: so this should be :bidirectional nil if I want it not to be the default?
2018-01-05T07:25:22Z hibikelel: I don't intend to become some master-programmer who reinvents everything about modern society, nice as that would be, when you get down to it I just want to hack around with pretty pictures
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2018-01-05T07:26:13Z |3b|: EvilTofu: not sure what you mean
2018-01-05T07:26:27Z hibikelel: Have a neat idea for a simple 3rd person shooter, don't even intend to sell it, just show off to some friends, I'd be surprised if whatever I come up with would be considered passable on the ps1
2018-01-05T07:26:46Z EvilTofu: The default is not bidirectional but one way.
2018-01-05T07:27:10Z EvilTofu: oh I see
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2018-01-05T07:27:23Z JuanDaugherty: hibikelel, it is probably inappropriate for you to try to do a lisp app for ps1
2018-01-05T07:27:25Z EvilTofu: <|3b|> I see
2018-01-05T07:27:30Z |3b|: (add-connection node1 node2) would get default, which is specified in the DEFUN
2018-01-05T07:28:10Z |3b|: &key bidirectional, or &key (bidirectional nil) would specify NIL as default
2018-01-05T07:28:12Z hibikelel: Not what I meant, I was trying to say that the level of quality I'm shooting for here wouldn't have made a passable game on that platform, not that I'm actually intending to write a game for the ps1
2018-01-05T07:28:44Z hibikelel: That said interestingly enough Crash Bandicoot was written in a proprietary lisp dialect called GOOL
2018-01-05T07:28:49Z |3b|: you could also pass :bidirectional nil if you wanted to be explicit at the call site (or if you wanted to pass it on from another variable or similar)
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2018-01-05T07:29:09Z JuanDaugherty: i still am unable to determine the nature of the specific paedagogical emergency
2018-01-05T07:29:38Z |3b|: there is also the option when writing the defun to determine if :bidirectional was specified at all when you want more complicated defaulting behavior, but usually you don't need that
2018-01-05T07:30:24Z hibikelel: I was just having trouble finding a 3d graphics library for racket, folks in here reccomended cl
2018-01-05T07:31:19Z JuanDaugherty: hibikelel, do you mean the folks in #racket/#scheme recommended cl?
2018-01-05T07:32:02Z |3b|: hibikelel: note that 'here' is a bit biased, other channels might have other biases and thus other suggestions :)
2018-01-05T07:32:02Z hibikelel: folks in this channel reccomended cl, I connected to #lisp thinking it was a general lisp chanel, unaware there was chanels for specifict dialects
2018-01-05T07:32:11Z hibikelel: yeah I'm aware
2018-01-05T07:32:22Z JuanDaugherty: well this is a CL channel
2018-01-05T07:32:23Z hibikelel: I'll be popping over to #scheme and #racket momentarily
2018-01-05T07:32:29Z hibikelel: I know that, now
2018-01-05T07:32:30Z |3b|: you might also try #lispgames (not CL specific, but mostly CL)
2018-01-05T07:32:39Z hibikelel: That's a good suggestion
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2018-01-05T07:34:52Z JuanDaugherty: fwiw, i move freely across lang cultures but for you that's probably inappropriate. I wrote my first program in 1974, went to college for it, had a long career, etc
2018-01-05T07:37:42Z hibikelel: awesome, as much as I'd like to have a career in programming one day I'm not sure that I'm cut out for it, I'd prefer to keep it as a neat hobby rather than anything I do too seriously.  No offense to those who do so for a living but I like the unconstrained nature of a blank editor, allowing me to work on/tinker with whatever I feel like, having to maintain someone else's software as product seems like
2018-01-05T07:37:48Z hibikelel: it'd kind of suck the fun out.
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2018-01-05T07:39:00Z JuanDaugherty: that is the common reaction to doing it under the capital system, the major alternative is academic/scientific computing
2018-01-05T07:39:35Z JuanDaugherty: and the dilletantism you seem to be headed for was once common, still is a thing i think
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2018-01-05T07:41:03Z JuanDaugherty: and extremely common pattern was for people to get sucked in from other disciplines, especially technical ones and then burn out on the noxious character of the industry
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2018-01-05T07:42:37Z hibikelel: I've always loved computing, but I'm more of a technician than a programmer, ressurected the laptop I'm typing this on from a chinese electronics-scrapper, had almost no parts, not even a display, ordered all of that and assembled the machine, turns out the backlight-fuse was blown, so I did my first soldering job on this thing, pretty proud of it in all honesty
2018-01-05T07:42:46Z JuanDaugherty: s/dilletante/hobbyist/
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2018-01-05T07:44:39Z hibikelel: I mean what can be said for the commercialization of the technical sector, the advent of the microprocessor didn't exactly change everything about everything overnight, but it certainly made a massive impact once consumer-grade computers were in the hands of the masses, from there the internet supercharged things
2018-01-05T07:44:47Z hibikelel: It was an inevitability
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2018-01-05T07:47:06Z JuanDaugherty: 'the commercialization of the technical sector' may make sense in china or russia, but the technical sector originated in and never left the technical sector
2018-01-05T07:47:12Z JuanDaugherty: in the non socialist world
2018-01-05T07:48:00Z JuanDaugherty: never left the circuit of capital production
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2018-01-05T07:49:38Z hibikelel: Perhaps that was a poor turn of phrase, I was attempting to articulate the transition of general computing from the past-time of academics and amateur programmers through the mid-sixties into the late-seventies, into what we wolud consider the modern information economy.  Time was unless you were manufacturing hardware there was almost no money to be made in computing outside of supporting a corporate
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2018-01-05T07:49:44Z hibikelel: mainframe
2018-01-05T07:50:13Z JuanDaugherty: yeah that's just false
2018-01-05T07:50:38Z JuanDaugherty: computing has always had a military/commercial grounding
2018-01-05T07:51:41Z JuanDaugherty: even mathematics itself arose in the practical activities of accounting, surveying, etc
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2018-01-05T07:56:53Z JuanDaugherty: probably the height of what you are talking about was in the late 70s and early 80s, a fairly brief time, less than a decade
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2018-01-05T07:59:23Z JuanDaugherty: anyway, as far as your original paedogogical emergency, i'd give portacle a try, use the libs it provides
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2018-01-05T08:09:43Z Shinmera: https://portacle.github.io
2018-01-05T08:11:22Z hajovonta: good morning!
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2018-01-05T08:23:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-05T08:35:39Z fe[nl]ix: 'morning beach
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2018-01-05T08:38:46Z beach: The ELS program committee is taking shape.
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2018-01-05T09:08:48Z hajovonta: hi beach!
2018-01-05T09:10:10Z beach: hajovonta: Are you planning to go to ELS this year?
2018-01-05T09:10:25Z EvilTofu: What is ELS?
2018-01-05T09:11:03Z hajovonta: I'm planning it every year, but family issues usually hold me back
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2018-01-05T09:11:19Z jackdaniel: EvilTofu: European Lisp Symposium
2018-01-05T09:11:50Z hajovonta: also, it's a lot of money just to travel and stay, and in the past few years it was nearly impossible to embark on the journey
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2018-01-05T09:14:30Z hajovonta: where will it take place this year?
2018-01-05T09:17:13Z beach: Marbella
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2018-01-05T11:29:20Z namra: greetings
2018-01-05T11:31:09Z namra: i'm pretty new to lisp and trying to read from a stream (that is returned instead of a string) as the response body of a get request using dexador
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2018-01-05T11:32:53Z namra: to read from it i do the following: https://pastebin.com/4aeS8n4Z
2018-01-05T11:33:16Z namra: thought that actually doesn't read anything from the stream, and i just can't figure out why
2018-01-05T11:33:29Z namra: (read-line response) works fine though
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2018-01-05T11:35:50Z pillton: aeth: That bug is now fixed in master.
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2018-01-05T11:43:46Z FareTower: namra, did something else read everything from the stream?
2018-01-05T11:44:07Z FareTower: is it a binary stream or a character stream?
2018-01-05T11:45:00Z namra: it's a BABEL:UNICODE-CHAR stream
2018-01-05T11:46:48Z namra: i don't know if some of the dexador code read from the stream prior, which actually doesn't seem reasonable because it wouldn't make sense to return the stream than. though any code i wrote doesn't read from it prior to that.
2018-01-05T11:47:06Z namra: i also tried it with a binary stream
2018-01-05T11:47:28Z FareTower: is that an alias for character, on sbcl?
2018-01-05T11:47:51Z namra: sorry FareTower but i don't know
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2018-01-05T11:48:45Z namra: hm babel is a CL charset encoding/decoding library
2018-01-05T11:52:33Z FareTower: I know of babel. If you M-. on BABEL:UNICODE-CHAR it should take you to the definition.
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2018-01-05T11:54:26Z namra: yep it's an alias for character
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2018-01-05T11:55:25Z FareTower: ok, so can you read-line from that stream?
2018-01-05T11:55:57Z namra: yes
2018-01-05T11:57:13Z FareTower: but read-sequence fails to read even one character?
2018-01-05T11:57:22Z namra: that is correct
2018-01-05T11:57:35Z FareTower: or is your sequence of effective size 0?
2018-01-05T11:58:04Z namra: nope i set it to 1024
2018-01-05T11:58:13Z FareTower: :fill-pointer 0
2018-01-05T11:58:28Z namra: (make-array 1024 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :element-type (stream-element-type response))
2018-01-05T11:58:32Z FareTower: :fill-pointer 0
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2018-01-05T11:59:13Z FareTower: maybe instead you should save the value given by read-sequence, and use it to set fill-pointer, or something
2018-01-05T12:00:35Z namra: the hyperspec states that read-sequence returns the position into the sequence (basically how many chars in this case have been read), but it always returns 0
2018-01-05T12:00:58Z FareTower: because you set fill-pointer to 0
2018-01-05T12:01:23Z FareTower: set the fill-pointer to 1024
2018-01-05T12:01:43Z FareTower: read-sequence is not magic
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2018-01-05T12:04:26Z FareTower: it's not call read-sequence-extend
2018-01-05T12:04:41Z FareTower: (by anology with vector-push-extend)
2018-01-05T12:05:21Z namra: oh i see
2018-01-05T12:05:26Z namra: thank you very much
2018-01-05T12:05:59Z FareTower: now you're it
2018-01-05T12:06:05Z namra: i thought read-sequence is advancing the fill-pointer
2018-01-05T12:06:05Z FareTower: to help the next newbie
2018-01-05T12:06:22Z FareTower: so did i, probably, once long time ago
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2018-01-05T12:06:58Z FareTower: and yes, if alexandria doesn't have a read-sequence-extend function, maybe you can contribute it. Or to another library
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2018-01-05T12:07:50Z Shinmera: Doesn't uiop have a thing to read a stream to a sequence?
2018-01-05T12:08:18Z FareTower: read-file-string you mean?
2018-01-05T12:09:26Z namra: alexandria does have this -> READ-STREAM-CONTENT-INTO-STRING
2018-01-05T12:09:26Z FareTower: yes, it does, but this gentleman is reading from a stream. Maybe he wants slurp-stream-string.
2018-01-05T12:09:33Z shrdlu68: There doesn't seem to be a "maxcol" print arg to the ~D format directive. How does one limit the maximum width?
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2018-01-05T12:24:08Z namra: shrdlu68: maybe you can achieve that with a conditional format directive, where the first argument checks if the number is to large
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2018-01-05T12:24:49Z shrdlu68: namra: I can do that.
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2018-01-05T12:28:06Z namra: (format nil "~@[~D~]" (not-to-large number))
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2018-01-05T16:43:29Z mo`: hey, is there a way to run Emacs functions from a lisp program, I use slime and sbcl ?
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2018-01-05T16:45:46Z _death: swank:eval-in-emacs?
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2018-01-05T16:48:22Z mo`: _death: thanks I will look into it
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2018-01-05T16:50:20Z mo`: _death: thanks this works.
2018-01-05T16:50:35Z mo`: how do I get help for a function or variable in slime ?
2018-01-05T16:51:02Z jmercouris: mo`: DO you mean a CL variable or an Elisp variable?
2018-01-05T16:52:26Z warweasle: mo`: Do you mean slime-apropos?
2018-01-05T16:53:29Z mo`: yeah I mean a CL variable
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2018-01-05T16:57:49Z jmercouris: mo`: You can do something like describe
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2018-01-05T16:57:51Z jmercouris: clhs describe
2018-01-05T16:57:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2018-01-05T16:58:38Z jmercouris: there's also documentation
2018-01-05T16:58:56Z jmercouris: clhs documentation
2018-01-05T16:58:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-01-05T16:59:06Z jmercouris: documentation sounds closer to what you're looking for
2018-01-05T16:59:11Z malice: you can also inspect
2018-01-05T16:59:22Z malice: that won't show help, but you can look at some objects
2018-01-05T16:59:43Z jmercouris: So an example might be something like (documentation *variable-name* 'variable)
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2018-01-05T17:01:14Z papachan: there is no "sdraw" package at quicklisp?
2018-01-05T17:01:23Z Xach: No
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2018-01-05T17:02:25Z jmercouris: Xach: Is there a way to fetch the latest upstream version of a project available in quicklisp?
2018-01-05T17:02:44Z Xach: jmercouris: not directly, but all upstream sources are tracked in the quicklisp-projects github repo
2018-01-05T17:02:55Z jmercouris: Ok, just wanted to confirm that, thinking about writing a tool
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2018-01-05T17:04:12Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Confirmation at this point in time
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2018-01-05T17:06:15Z Xach: jmercouris: i do intend to ship that data with quicklisp dists soon
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2018-01-05T17:09:19Z jmercouris: Xach: I remember you told me some time ago, but let's say you have something installed via quicklisp, and something in your local-projects dir, how does ql decide which to load?
2018-01-05T17:09:51Z Xach: jmercouris: local-projects takes precedence always.
2018-01-05T17:10:02Z jmercouris: Ok good, that should make this tool work then
2018-01-05T17:10:08Z Xach: as well as any other system visible through asdf's registry system
2018-01-05T17:10:15Z Xach: quicklisp-provided projects are the last resort
2018-01-05T17:10:25Z jmercouris: i guess that makes sense, becaause the user would have to manually do that meaning that is likely their intent
2018-01-05T17:11:27Z papachan: is this correct? (not (append '() '()))
2018-01-05T17:11:33Z papachan: its en empty list
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2018-01-05T17:12:13Z jmercouris: If you append an emtpy list to an empty list, I expect you'd get an empty list
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2018-01-05T17:17:43Z papachan: ah ok i found something better so: (find-if #'identity (append '() '()))
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2018-01-05T17:38:43Z jmercouris: papachan: What do you mean better? if we don't know what the program is supposed to do, what is better or worse? You need to provide some context
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2018-01-05T18:18:31Z phoe: papachan: your program is equivalent to
2018-01-05T18:18:33Z phoe: '()
2018-01-05T18:20:08Z Shinmera: Which is also the same as ()
2018-01-05T18:20:56Z warweasle: Which is the name as nil.
2018-01-05T18:21:21Z Shinmera: And the same as an infinity of other forms
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2018-01-05T18:37:46Z phoe: we need to hold a contest
2018-01-05T18:38:05Z phoe: the most bizarre and unexpected way of writing a form that evaluates to NIL
2018-01-05T18:38:18Z phoe: ...possibly without side effects
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2018-01-05T18:41:35Z rme: (setq)
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2018-01-05T18:44:26Z phoe: rme: unexpectedly satisfying
2018-01-05T18:44:55Z Xach: rme: Nice! Wow!
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2018-01-05T18:45:05Z Xach: That is going to save me so much time in macros! Maybe!
2018-01-05T18:45:14Z phoe: Xach: how?
2018-01-05T18:45:27Z rme: That's one of my favorites.
2018-01-05T18:45:36Z Xach: phoe: no need to check if i have a non-nil number of things to setf
2018-01-05T18:45:50Z Xach: `(setf ,@assignments) where assignments might be empty just works
2018-01-05T18:46:04Z phoe: oh wait
2018-01-05T18:46:07Z phoe: (setf) works as well
2018-01-05T18:46:13Z Xach: This is a little tongue in cheek. Macros are the only reason I can imagine for allowing an empty setq/setf
2018-01-05T18:46:17Z phoe: holy cow, niiiiice
2018-01-05T18:46:25Z Xach: It wouldn't affect me personally in any way I can think of.
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2018-01-05T18:56:09Z kolb: is there a name for this (imho defining) property of Lisp that things like `(setf ,@bindings) work? This is how I got to appreciate it the most: http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~wiseman/humor/large-programs.html
2018-01-05T18:57:18Z Xach: Wow, interesting that lemonodor's college page is still up.
2018-01-05T18:57:29Z phoe: kolb: you mean backquote?
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2018-01-05T18:58:02Z phoe: homoiconicity?
2018-01-05T18:58:25Z kolb: phoe: no I mean the fact that nil is a boolean, a symbol, a list, the "null value", things like (setq) work, ...
2018-01-05T18:58:28Z kolb: see my link
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2018-01-05T18:58:43Z kolb: I guess its a design principle
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2018-01-05T18:58:48Z phoe: "CDR didn't think that NIL was much fun"
2018-01-05T18:58:54Z phoe: oh, he used Scheme. poor man
2018-01-05T18:59:00Z kolb: exactly
2018-01-05T18:59:01Z Xach: kolb: I think so
2018-01-05T18:59:21Z Xach: kolb: there's a willingness to be ugly to work
2018-01-05T18:59:31Z _death: pragmatism
2018-01-05T18:59:38Z phoe: ^
2018-01-05T19:00:00Z kolb: I think doug hoyte had a term in LoL
2018-01-05T19:00:22Z kolb: I think pragmatism is way too generic and doesn’t describe the thing
2018-01-05T19:00:23Z warweasle: I would like scheme if it had defmacro and CLOS.
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2018-01-05T19:00:53Z kolb: doug hoyte called it "dualisms" IIRC
2018-01-05T19:00:54Z warweasle: Also, I'm not a huge fan of #t, #f, (), all being different things.
2018-01-05T19:01:14Z phoe: warweasle: I actually like #t and #f being different things
2018-01-05T19:01:15Z warweasle: Well, #t should be (not #f)
2018-01-05T19:01:22Z kolb: and doug claimed that these dualisms relate directly to expressiveness
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2018-01-05T19:01:29Z phoe: makes for useful stuff, like, for example, boolean logic
2018-01-05T19:01:35Z warweasle: phoe: I can understand the argument, so that's why it's not a deal breaker.
2018-01-05T19:02:12Z _death: equivocation
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2018-01-05T19:03:04Z kolb: _death: that’s a fancy word for ambiguous ;-P
2018-01-05T19:03:35Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-05T19:03:42Z _death: kolb: a term is ambiguous, the use of ambiguity is equivocation
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2018-01-05T19:06:20Z shka: scheme is perfect education medium
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2018-01-05T19:06:42Z shka: and should be recognized as such
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2018-01-05T19:19:31Z rme: In a way, I kind of like CL's weird things.  It's like the people of Amsterdam who eat herring from the street vendors: it's weird to outsiders, but the locals like it.
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2018-01-05T19:20:23Z rme: some of the locals, anyway
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2018-01-05T19:27:55Z FareTower: rme: I love CL, but I recognize it and its community are dysfunctional in many ways
2018-01-05T19:28:25Z FareTower: autistic, neophobic, quirky
2018-01-05T19:28:58Z FareTower: with lots of baggage
2018-01-05T19:29:22Z FareTower: overall very bad at collaboration
2018-01-05T19:29:59Z FareTower: maybe attracted to lisp precisely because it can do so much with so little collaboration
2018-01-05T19:31:21Z warweasle: FareTower: I would like to rename a few things. Outside of that, I love CL.
2018-01-05T19:32:06Z FareTower: warweasle, renaming for yourself is the easiest of things
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2018-01-05T19:33:45Z warweasle: FareTower: I mean things like "true" and "false". print and such. People expect it.
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2018-01-05T19:40:01Z FareTower: warweasle, can still do
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2018-01-05T19:40:46Z FareTower: though for hacking reader and printer... soon you'll have a lisp-in-cl
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2018-01-05T19:44:49Z rme: I'm trying to look in the mirror to see if I'm autistic, neophobic, and quirky.  Maybe I'm a little neophobic, but that's partly because change is inevitable but progress is not.
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2018-01-05T19:46:16Z FareTower: CLers managed to avoid a lot of change.
2018-01-05T19:46:23Z FareTower: for better and for worse
2018-01-05T19:46:51Z FareTower: lispers like to boast about all the innovation that lisp was about, but do precious little innovation these days
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2018-01-05T19:47:47Z makomo: hearing that sort of stuff makes me a bit sad :^(
2018-01-05T19:48:03Z makomo: and reminds me of that "bipolar disorder lisper" essay
2018-01-05T19:48:13Z _death: makomo: you can safely disregard them
2018-01-05T19:48:57Z makomo: i always wonder whether such a thing could be true. i mean, it's not like any such essays have any data to back up their claims
2018-01-05T19:48:58Z FareTower: lispers also resist the most justified of changes
2018-01-05T19:49:21Z warweasle: FareTower: Well, we just add changes on top of the others. And we make a mud-ball.
2018-01-05T19:49:29Z phoe: isn't lisp a mudball?
2018-01-05T19:49:40Z FareTower: there was a lisp project called mudballs... it died
2018-01-05T19:49:52Z FareTower: a replacement for asdf 1 and 2.
2018-01-05T19:49:54Z rme: I don't like those "lispers are bipolar" or " lispers have asperger's" essays and talks.  They are not true and not helpful.
2018-01-05T19:50:05Z makomo: yeah, i think so too
2018-01-05T19:50:40Z FareTower: "know thyself"
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2018-01-05T19:50:59Z tomlukeywood: what is the difference between map and mapcar?
2018-01-05T19:51:05Z _death: apply the socratic dictum to thyself, as well
2018-01-05T19:51:06Z loli: mapcar is for lists only
2018-01-05T19:51:08Z Xach: tomlukeywood: map is more generic.
2018-01-05T19:51:11Z warweasle: rme: I have both. :(
2018-01-05T19:51:19Z loli: map is more general and you can supply the final form
2018-01-05T19:51:42Z loli: has anyone here used LiL (lisp interface library)?
2018-01-05T19:51:51Z tomlukeywood: so you can use map on strings to go through each character etc?
2018-01-05T19:51:56Z loli: yes
2018-01-05T19:51:58Z Xach: tomlukeywood: yes
2018-01-05T19:52:00Z tomlukeywood: ty
2018-01-05T19:53:41Z phoe: to me, Lisp doesn't change, Lisp evolves
2018-01-05T19:53:59Z phoe: and evolution likes to take its time and mistakes
2018-01-05T19:55:13Z loli: how bad of an idea is it to pass a dynamic variable down to do method/function dispatch? Is there another method that will allow me to change what a function means after the fact?
2018-01-05T19:55:50Z Xach: loli: what kind of change did you have in mind?
2018-01-05T19:56:19Z Xach: loli: using special variables for that is pretty common, e.g. *print-case* changes behavior
2018-01-05T19:56:19Z loli: I'm using dynamic variables to be <>, bar, and mempty ie simulating the monoid for my finger tree
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2018-01-05T19:56:42Z FareTower: loli: "this is not my final form!"
2018-01-05T19:56:54Z loli: FareTower: ???
2018-01-05T19:57:08Z FareTower: phoe: does Lisp evolve much, these days?
2018-01-05T19:57:29Z FareTower: as the joke goes, it's just as dead as ever, no more, no less
2018-01-05T19:57:37Z loli: I'm using a secondary struct for users to make their own finger tree, the issue is that with the lazy eval,I have to overload every function for the correct values to be gotten
2018-01-05T19:57:44Z jmercouris: rme: +1 those essays are bullshit, most likely not even written by lisp developers
2018-01-05T19:58:00Z loli: I have to overload my generated getters which is rather annoying
2018-01-05T19:58:06Z FareTower: phoe: weren't you re-digitizing a new CLHS rival from the dpANS spec?
2018-01-05T19:58:46Z phoe: FareTower: I was, and am. Currently on hiatus because of real life taking up most of my real life CPU time.
2018-01-05T19:58:50Z jmercouris: FareTower: It's in progress, when it is done, it will be done (temporarily on hold)
2018-01-05T19:59:38Z phoe: FareTower: it evolves on its own pace. It's a slow pace, but then again, things are not done unless someone does them, and Lisp does not have many* people who have the will, energy and time to do them.
2018-01-05T19:59:47Z phoe: *relatively, compared to some other programming languages
2018-01-05T20:00:36Z FareTower: phoe: I can sympathize with that.
2018-01-05T20:00:51Z FareTower: phoe: maybe you can find a way to crowdsource this effort?
2018-01-05T20:01:17Z FareTower: a lot of CL hackers could each put 2 days proof-reading / annotating / whatever a small part of the the CLHS
2018-01-05T20:01:22Z phoe: FareTower: I was complaining about exactly this thing a day ago perhaps, you can search the #lisp logs.
2018-01-05T20:01:26Z FareTower: or however you call this successor
2018-01-05T20:01:46Z phoe: Yes, I terribly need to crowdsource that.
2018-01-05T20:02:04Z phoe: And I'll do this as soon as I deal with my real life, which might take me two months.
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2018-01-05T20:02:19Z FareTower: I've met people who explained that they learned PHP because it had a great community and great documentation. These can do wonders even for a shitty language.
2018-01-05T20:02:20Z phoe: But then, heh, I've been neglecting my RL for way too long.
2018-01-05T20:02:27Z phoe: (incf FareTower)
2018-01-05T20:02:28Z FareTower: lowering the barrier to entry
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2018-01-05T20:02:37Z phoe: yes, very much.
2018-01-05T20:02:58Z FareTower: The greatest lowering of barrier to entry in the CL world was probably Quicklisp
2018-01-05T20:03:01Z phoe: the CL cookbook has a lot of fresh and awesome content, when it comes to *new* documentation
2018-01-05T20:03:07Z phoe: I mean the *new* cookbook
2018-01-05T20:03:10Z FareTower: (Thanks, Xach)
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2018-01-05T20:03:32Z FareTower: what new cookbook?
2018-01-05T20:03:39Z phoe: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/
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2018-01-05T20:05:28Z phoe: Things like https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/error_handling.html are all fresh stuff.
2018-01-05T20:05:31Z phoe: Crowdsourced, as you call it.
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2018-01-05T20:06:52Z phoe: Its new chapters have been posted on /r/lisp for a longer while now
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2018-01-05T20:08:47Z makomo: FareTower: i saw that post of yours where you mentioned that (a mailing list, i forgot which one)
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2018-01-05T20:09:30Z makomo: i wonder if that's real or just anecdotal evidence
2018-01-05T20:09:50Z makomo: god damn it, if only we had actual, proper statistical data for this kind of stuff
2018-01-05T20:09:56Z makomo: it's always just speculation/stories
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2018-01-05T20:10:49Z FareTower: makomo, mentioned what?
2018-01-05T20:10:53Z makomo: the PHP thing
2018-01-05T20:11:17Z FareTower: oh
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2018-01-05T20:14:20Z phoe: FareTower: I really want to finish my Lisp documentation project and make it go live despite all the delays, especially since "every year there's a new kid in the block who wants to curate CL libraries. So far, Xach is an exception in actually doing it and sticking to it year after year."
2018-01-05T20:14:41Z phoe: which is pretty true, and has both upsides and downsides.
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2018-01-05T20:14:44Z phoe brb for RL
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2018-01-05T20:36:23Z phoe: upsides: there's obviously energy and will to be spent, because if people have the energy to constructively complain, then they have the energy to make things better
2018-01-05T20:36:53Z phoe: downsides: it's trivial to let people down in this scenario since if there's nothing they can attach their frustrations and wishes for a better state of things to, they'll just leave
2018-01-05T20:37:27Z phoe: but heh, this thing has been discussed 9001 times before, half of which happened on #lisp
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2018-01-05T20:40:05Z FareTower: phoe: I spent all my non-mercenary CL energy. But I want to leave the place in a better state than I found it, so I'm probably gonna stick until ASDF 3.3.2 is released that fixes the regressions with 3.3.1
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2018-01-05T20:42:41Z phoe: FareTower: no doubt you spent it, you did a ton of work related to ASDF.
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2018-01-05T20:48:01Z FareTower: most people don't seem to notice... hard to tell whether it's success (seamless experience) or failure (no one cares)
2018-01-05T20:48:49Z phoe: I'll tell you a small tale that comes from my own ignorance and experience.
2018-01-05T20:49:36Z phoe: I never realized how important it is to value people's work until I finally noticed how God damn hard, annoying and exhausting it is to ship working, polished software, as compared to happy hacking.
2018-01-05T20:50:53Z phoe: Which came with some experience. I had to learn this, valuing people's work, and I had to learn it by hours of bugfixing, coding, listening to people's requests, complaints, whines, praises and weird stuff I'd rather not mention here.
2018-01-05T20:50:53Z dlowe: yeah, shipping is way harder than many think.
2018-01-05T20:51:27Z phoe: so, huh, it might sound pretty weird, but I stopped really expecting "normal bread-eaters" to notice how much work it takes to deliver something that works as expected.
2018-01-05T20:51:42Z phoe: they usually go "ooooh, shinyyy, it makes vrroooom, vrrrooooom soundssss :o"
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2018-01-05T20:52:13Z phoe: well, a part of my work is that it makes vroom vrrrroooooom sounds. but also that it doesn't explode in all the various configurations for this person, other people, or other circumstances.
2018-01-05T20:52:46Z phoe: this, and also how much time it takes to bugfix stuff as compared to implementing new features. this ratio only goes higher and higher over time, too.
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2018-01-05T20:54:11Z phoe: so it's pretty damn weird, but, "most people don't seem to notice... hard to tell whether it's success (seamless experience) or failure (no one cares)" - I'd agree with most of it except the last part
2018-01-05T20:54:26Z phoe: people tend to care, they just rarely have any idea of how the whole process looks like
2018-01-05T20:54:53Z phoe: even if they understand basic programming, they think that software developers are doing programming, where they are actually doing software development
2018-01-05T20:55:10Z phoe: and sometimes I wish software development included programming
2018-01-05T20:55:18Z phoe: </rant>
2018-01-05T20:55:22Z phoe: okay, more RL stuff now
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2018-01-05T21:42:56Z jmercouris: phoe: I think unless a developer has released a product themselves, they do not know this, as part of a company you are shielded from this by sales people, and other customer facing individuals (support etc)
2018-01-05T21:43:35Z jmercouris: phoe: That is also why I am hesitant to call myself a programmer, I don't merely program, that is just one step
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2018-01-05T21:44:58Z phoe: jmercouris: by my personal nomenclature, I think it's fine to call yourself a programmer right now. I make a distinction between programming and software development.
2018-01-05T21:45:35Z phoe: it's like, similar kind of difference like between having sex and being a parent inside a healthy family.
2018-01-05T21:45:38Z jmercouris: This is of course fine if you are *just* a programmer, but if you are developing software, then you are a software developer
2018-01-05T21:45:57Z phoe: like, the former is still a part of the latter, but you also get a ton of other work that is semi- and unrelated to programming.
2018-01-05T21:46:22Z jmercouris: Would a laywer call themselves a paper reader?
2018-01-05T21:46:45Z jmercouris: most of the time they are reading papers, no?
2018-01-05T21:46:47Z phoe: and one day you can just wake up and there's shit in the middle of the carpet. nobody knows how it happened, nobody knows when it happened, there's just blank stares and avoidant gazes, and all you know is that it's your responsibility to clean it up before guests arrive at eleven o'clock.
2018-01-05T21:47:00Z phoe: gah, I just realized it's a #lispcafe discussion.
2018-01-05T21:47:30Z phoe heads there
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2018-01-05T21:52:32Z jmercouris: I see in lisp manuals a lot of the time syntax that appears at top of pages like this: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcfun.html
2018-01-05T21:52:40Z jmercouris: ::=, | etc
2018-01-05T21:52:40Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, time, tell, roll, help, deny,
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2018-01-05T21:52:57Z jmercouris: is there a list of these symbol meanings? some of them are obvious
2018-01-05T21:53:04Z jmercouris: I assume | is probably or, ::= is assignment
2018-01-05T21:53:15Z jmercouris: but what does {}* mean?
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2018-01-05T21:53:25Z beach: It is called BNF  Bacchus Naur Form
2018-01-05T21:53:37Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form
2018-01-05T21:53:37Z minion: aeth, memo from pillton: That bug is now fixed in master.
2018-01-05T21:53:47Z aeth: pillton: thanks
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2018-01-05T21:54:39Z aeth: jmercouris: Unfortunately, there isn't one BNF
2018-01-05T21:54:57Z jmercouris: That's too bad, the symbols did look really familiar though :D
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2018-01-05T21:55:01Z aeth: The Wikipedia article I linked to gives two extended forms in its intro, EBNF and ABNF
2018-01-05T21:55:15Z jmercouris: I had seen them before when working with yacc
2018-01-05T21:55:28Z aeth: yes
2018-01-05T21:55:32Z Xach: jmercouris: http://l1sp.org/cl/1.4.1.2 discusses the modifications for the spec
2018-01-05T21:56:55Z jmercouris: Ok, thanks for the resources, time to try to learn it properly
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2018-01-05T21:57:10Z aeth: yacc uses yet another BNF, or at least really close to it
2018-01-05T21:57:32Z aeth: Wikipedia says "a notation similar to Backus–Naur Form (BNF)"
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2018-01-05T21:58:38Z aeth: (really, they missed an opportunity to literally call it "yet another BNF" because the program's "yet another compiler-compiler")
2018-01-05T21:58:45Z beach: I apologize to John Backus for spelling his name like the Roman version of Dionysus.
2018-01-05T21:59:25Z jmercouris: He won't be reading this log I think :D
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2018-01-05T21:59:49Z beach: Whew!
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2018-01-05T22:03:38Z FareTower: beach: he might be flattered
2018-01-05T22:07:03Z rumbler31: "thats funny, I was having a glass of wine when I thought this up"
2018-01-05T22:07:15Z jmercouris: I was saying because he is not alive anymore
2018-01-05T22:07:43Z jmercouris: Anyways, I have the following cffi binding I am trying to get to work, can someone please take a look and see if I made a mistake? It is very short, just 3 forms: https://gist.github.com/acb34aef9e4d784933fe5c593001e3dd
2018-01-05T22:08:13Z jmercouris: I've included the original C documentation at the top
2018-01-05T22:08:45Z rme: I only know one person who drinks wine while programming.  I don't know how he does it.
2018-01-05T22:10:31Z rumbler31: Thats easy! Just one glass at a time
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2018-01-05T22:16:43Z FareTower: rme: you make me thirsty!
2018-01-05T22:16:58Z FareTower: rme: I hope he drinks *red* wine.
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2018-01-05T22:23:31Z rme: of course he does
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2018-01-05T22:39:11Z FareTower: I like to do that, too, but I hate to drink alone at which point I drink too slow for the wine bottle not to get bad before I finish it.
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2018-01-05T23:57:37Z throwprans|prans: Why do I need VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND and couldn't just VECTOR-PUSH deal with it?
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2018-01-06T00:00:39Z White_Flame: yeah, VECTOR-PUSH might have had a number of keyword parameters to do stuff like that, but many of the simpler or lower level standard functions are pretty specific in their use
2018-01-06T00:00:54Z White_Flame: perhaps to keep them fast back in the day
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2018-01-06T00:08:08Z throwprans|prans: White_Flame: I see, thanks.
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2018-01-06T00:16:14Z mgsk: What's the appropriate method of removing a sublist from a list? i.e. `(remove '(1 2 3) '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)))` => ((4 5 6))
2018-01-06T00:17:34Z throwprans|prans: mgsk: (remove '(1 2 3) '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) :test #'equal)
2018-01-06T00:17:36Z White_Flame: add :test #'equal
2018-01-06T00:17:44Z throwprans|prans: Beat you to it ;)
2018-01-06T00:17:52Z mgsk should've read the doc more carefully
2018-01-06T00:17:54Z mgsk: cheers
2018-01-06T00:17:55Z White_Flame: I think the test by default is just #'eql
2018-01-06T00:18:06Z White_Flame: (throwprans|prans I eplained more ;))
2018-01-06T00:18:13Z White_Flame: *explained
2018-01-06T00:18:15Z pfdietz: That is correct in almost all cases in Common Lisp.
2018-01-06T00:19:44Z throwprans|prans: The spec is silent about it.
2018-01-06T00:19:46Z throwprans|prans: huh!
2018-01-06T00:19:50Z throwprans|prans: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_rm_rm.htm#remove
2018-01-06T00:20:23Z White_Flame: no, one of the general information sections says that tests on sequences default to #'eql or something
2018-01-06T00:20:44Z throwprans|prans: That makes sense.
2018-01-06T00:21:43Z throwprans|prans: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node141.html and elements are tested for being eql to that item. (A test other than eql can be specified by the :test or :test-not keyword.
2018-01-06T00:21:56Z throwprans|prans: I think that is the one you were referring to?
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2018-01-06T00:24:10Z pfdietz: Also, look up "Same" in the glossary.
2018-01-06T00:24:48Z pfdietz: "Since eq is used only rarely in this specification, eql is the default predicate when none is mentioned explicitly."
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2018-01-06T01:01:43Z _death: EQ is used only for GETF and friends
2018-01-06T01:05:31Z pfdietz: It's also used in CATCH and THROW.
2018-01-06T01:06:32Z _death: right
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2018-01-06T01:21:37Z eviltofu: Hello! Are there any coding conventions for lisp?
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2018-01-06T01:23:22Z mukuge: Hi. Can I ask a beginner question here?
2018-01-06T01:24:33Z eviltofu: Should I name functions (potato->make-fries)?
2018-01-06T01:27:06Z rme: eviltofu: you can read https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml for some ideas
2018-01-06T01:27:48Z rme: I'm not a fan of the foo->bar kind of names myself, but I've seen people use it.
2018-01-06T01:29:04Z rme: mukuge: ask away
2018-01-06T01:29:15Z White_Flame: mukuge: there's #clnoobs, which could be more appropriate.  There's a LOT of specifics generally discussed here
2018-01-06T01:30:07Z White_Flame: eviltofu: if you have potato->make-fries vs yam->make-fries or whatever, it would make sense to have (defmethod make-fries (...) ...) and dispatch on the type of parameter
2018-01-06T01:30:19Z mukuge: Thanks rme and white_Flame. I'll ask my question at #clnoobs this time.
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2018-01-06T02:46:46Z aeth: White_Flame: You don't dispatch on type with defmethod. There's a difference between class and type. This is mostly noticable when you try to do something with an array.
2018-01-06T02:47:19Z White_Flame: yes, correct.  I hop between too many languages :-P
2018-01-06T02:47:57Z aeth: (And there is at least one library that lets you dispatch on types.)
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2018-01-06T03:36:26Z jcowan: does anyone have a sense of the relative speed of chez and sbcl?
2018-01-06T03:37:30Z aeth: jcowan: SBCL is in the language benchmark game (roughly around the speed of Java there) so if someone who knows how to write Chez well wants to, that might give some data
2018-01-06T03:37:43Z jcowan: ta
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2018-01-06T03:38:40Z aeth: I think Racket's the only Scheme there (well, Racket is only sort of Scheme)
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2018-01-06T03:39:46Z jcowan nods
2018-01-06T03:40:23Z aeth: https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/
2018-01-06T03:40:47Z jcowan: I am wondering if it is worth porting shen to chez
2018-01-06T03:43:45Z jcowan: there is a port to Scheme, but it only works on chibi and gauche, which are Scheme bytecode interpreters without JIT
2018-01-06T03:49:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-06T03:53:41Z beach: jcowan: Maybe people in #scheme have an opinion.
2018-01-06T03:54:05Z jcowan: asked in #chez, nobody knows there right now
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2018-01-06T07:40:12Z eviltofu: oh there’s a noob channel?
2018-01-06T07:40:19Z eviltofu: This noob is moving over.
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2018-01-06T07:42:38Z eviltofu: The reason I asked is because I have several CLOS classes which I use HAS-xxx to describe them. Has-identity, Has-tags, Has-connections, etc. Then I use composition. So sometimes it gets a bit confusing to use has-identity-identity for accessing a slot.
2018-01-06T07:43:08Z eviltofu: I’ll go read the guide now
2018-01-06T07:43:38Z beach: I think that's an obsolete convention...
2018-01-06T07:43:50Z beach: i.e. to prefix the slot accessor with the name of the class.
2018-01-06T07:44:10Z eviltofu: What is the current convention?
2018-01-06T07:44:26Z beach: It looks really strange when you do that in subclasses, for instance (sheet-children pane)
2018-01-06T07:44:49Z beach: I think it is preferable to have more packages instead, and just don't use the prefix.
2018-01-06T07:45:39Z eviltofu: I put my classes in their own package.
2018-01-06T07:46:16Z eviltofu: So I should just remove Has-xxx to make it xxx.
2018-01-06T07:46:28Z beach: Also, the HAS- convention looks strange.  A person would be what?  has-name-and-address-and-telephone-number-and-social-security-number?
2018-01-06T07:46:46Z eviltofu: Those classes aren’t really used.
2018-01-06T07:47:04Z beach: Why do you create classes that aren't used?
2018-01-06T07:47:16Z eviltofu: For example when I create a network node class (defclass node (has-identity has-connections has-properties) … )
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2018-01-06T07:47:28Z beach: Oh, I see.
2018-01-06T07:47:58Z beach: We usually call those xxx-mixin.  Like identity-mixin, connections-mixin, etc.
2018-01-06T07:48:05Z eviltofu: ooooh
2018-01-06T07:48:34Z eviltofu: then the methods which support that class are identify-mixin-xxx ?
2018-01-06T07:49:11Z beach: I don't think so.
2018-01-06T07:49:24Z eviltofu: ok so common sense names then
2018-01-06T07:49:58Z beach: IDENTITY is strange because you have to shadow it so that it would be the Common Lisp symbol.
2018-01-06T07:50:02Z eviltofu: oh so generics and then speciliase in methods
2018-01-06T07:50:02Z beach: Otherwise...
2018-01-06T07:50:25Z eviltofu: I’d change it to identifiable
2018-01-06T07:50:29Z beach: (defclass identity-mixin ((... :reader identity)))
2018-01-06T07:50:39Z beach: No, just shadow the symbol.
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2018-01-06T07:51:39Z eviltofu: ok will have to look up what shadowing does
2018-01-06T07:52:04Z beach: (defpackage my-stuff (:use #:common-lisp) (:shadow #:identity) (:export #:identity ....))
2018-01-06T07:52:46Z beach: It means that there is a symbol named IDENTITY in the MY-STUFF package and that symbol is distinct from COMMON-LISP:IDENTITY.
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2018-01-06T07:54:10Z eviltofu: so to use the CL identity I can use CL:IDENTITY?
2018-01-06T07:54:17Z beach: Yes.
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2018-01-06T08:22:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized that I can use (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) to make fasls that automatically load their dependencies
2018-01-06T08:23:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. something like: https://pastebin.com/N12ViT8T
2018-01-06T08:24:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the latest lisppaste code available somewhere?
2018-01-06T08:25:00Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I think #common-lisp.net will be able to answer best
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2018-01-06T08:32:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess this eval-when trick isn't very useful, since most lisps don't have a stable fasl format, but it could be useful if you want to ship an application with a bunch of dynamically loaded modules: you'd build a base image with only your application in it and then use that image to compile all the modules to fasl files and put them in a well-known location, you could avoid putting all the module dependencies in your .asd
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2018-01-06T08:40:50Z FareTower: fiddlerwoaroof, that's what compile-bundle-op is for.
2018-01-06T08:41:15Z FareTower: or monolithic-compile-bundle-op
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2018-01-06T08:48:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool
2018-01-06T08:49:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always been a little intimidated by ASDF's documentation
2018-01-06T08:49:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've slowly been learning my way around it :)
2018-01-06T08:50:18Z pjb: Yes, documentations are often intimidating. That's why it's better to avoid them altogether.
2018-01-06T08:51:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I usually just read the code when I want to figure out how to use a library
2018-01-06T08:52:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'll occasionally look at a readme and/or a sample application, but I find it's often easier to look at code and/or docstrings in emacs than it is to try to understand the library's documentaiton
2018-01-06T08:53:06Z Shinmera: I have the exact opposite experience.
2018-01-06T08:53:28Z Shinmera: Trying to understand what other people's code is supposed to achieve is far from trivial for almost anything.
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2018-01-06T11:26:26Z r___: anyone has an idea on how to tell if a thread in sbcl is in the debugger?
2018-01-06T11:28:02Z r___: I see the function sb-thread:symbol-value-in-thread and the variable  sb-debug:*in-the-debugger*
2018-01-06T11:30:37Z phoe: r___: you could theoretically try interrupting it with (lambda () (symbol-value 'sb-debug:*in-the-debugger*))
2018-01-06T11:30:51Z phoe: if you want to risk interrupting threads, that is... which *might* be feasible if it's in the debugger anyway
2018-01-06T11:31:11Z r___: But in trying to use it on a thread which executes a division by zero & is in the debugger, I get an error indicating that the symbol has no thread local value
2018-01-06T11:31:54Z phoe: then this variable wasn't set, it seems.
2018-01-06T11:32:00Z phoe: sounds like a #sbcl issue.
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2018-01-06T11:35:45Z r___: right. I'm looking to see if someone knows (or has experienced this situation) under what conditions this variable is set & how is my understanding of it & of the function to test it in the context of a given thread is wrong
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2018-01-06T11:38:45Z flowerdts: hey guys I was wondering if there is a way to have a (case) with multiple keys? My code is here https://pastebin.com/KZQBNcTe  It's supposed to be a wine expert System :)
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2018-01-06T11:44:09Z oleo: sbcl does not promote globals to thread-local
2018-01-06T11:45:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: flowerdts: you should format your code, it's really difficult to read unformatted lisp code
2018-01-06T11:45:51Z flowerdts: I though this was formatted O.O
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2018-01-06T11:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's pretty good, although your case statement isn't formatted quite right
2018-01-06T11:46:46Z oleo: symbol-value-in-thread
2018-01-06T11:47:13Z r___: oleo: would you know how I could test if a given thread is in the debugger?
2018-01-06T11:47:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, there isn't a multiply-keyed case statement in lisp
2018-01-06T11:47:28Z flowerdts: oh, so how should it be? and how could I run a case on a list with features? :)
2018-01-06T11:48:01Z oleo:     global special values are visible across all threads;
2018-01-06T11:48:01Z oleo:     bindings (e.g. using LET) are local to the thread;
2018-01-06T11:48:01Z oleo:     threads do not inherit dynamic bindings from the parent thread
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2018-01-06T11:49:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: flowerdts: case uses EQL to compare the key to the various case clauses, so there's no way to use case unless you're using a type that works appropriately with EQL
2018-01-06T11:50:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: flowerdts: however, alexandria has destructuring-case that looks like it might do what you need
2018-01-06T11:51:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Do you have quicklisp setup?
2018-01-06T11:51:12Z flowerdts: I use clisp to compile in console
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2018-01-06T11:52:02Z flowerdts: I can't use Alexandria (this project is for school)
2018-01-06T11:52:26Z oleo: Variable Value Availability
2018-01-06T11:52:41Z oleo: read that in the sbcl manual
2018-01-06T11:52:55Z oleo: The value of a variable may be unavailable to the debugger in portions of the program where Lisp says that the variable is defined. If a variable value is not available, the debugger will not let you read or write that variable. With one exception, the debugger will never display an incorrect value for a variable. Rather than displaying incorrect values, the debugger tells you the value is unavailable.
2018-01-06T11:54:09Z flowerdts: I guess my only option is splitting with if/else and nesting case/s
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2018-01-06T11:54:28Z r___: oleo: thanks. will go check it out
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2018-01-06T11:54:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: flowerdts: well, one thing you could do is put the output in a hash-table with :test #'EQUAL and then printing the result of getting a list from the hash table
2018-01-06T11:55:06Z flowerdts: great idea, I will look into that
2018-01-06T11:55:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. your case statement would turn into something like (format t "~% ~a" (gethash (list color grapes) *choices*))
2018-01-06T11:55:53Z flowerdts: and how would I build that hash? :)
2018-01-06T11:57:06Z pjb: Same, using gethash.
2018-01-06T11:57:13Z pjb: it's an _accessor_!
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2018-01-06T11:58:04Z flowerdts: isn't there something like sethash ?
2018-01-06T11:58:39Z flowerdts: (setq (gethash (list color grapes) choice)) ?
2018-01-06T11:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: You use setf
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2018-01-06T11:59:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (gethash key hash-table) value)
2018-01-06T12:00:37Z flowerdts: (setf (gethash (list color grapes) wines))
2018-01-06T12:00:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, although you need a value at the end of the setf form
2018-01-06T12:01:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: you might read this chapter of pcl to familiarize yourself with the way lisp accessors work: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2018-01-06T12:01:18Z flowerdts: so wines is the name of the hash and then a value to represent the choice?
2018-01-06T12:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically
2018-01-06T12:01:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is explained in the section of that web page beginning "generalized assignment"
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2018-01-06T12:06:46Z flowerdts: https://pastebin.com/t9kYxzk7 this is returning NIL :/
2018-01-06T12:08:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to tell make-hash-table not to use #'eql when looking up a key
2018-01-06T12:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, it's (make-hash-table :test #'equal)
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2018-01-06T12:10:14Z flowerdts: it works! Thank you very much :)
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2018-01-06T12:34:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: great!
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2018-01-06T12:40:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: A mac app in pure lisp, with a tiny ffi shim: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/objc-lisp-bridge/blob/master/demo-app.lisp
2018-01-06T12:41:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I couldn't figure out how to pass a couple structs by value)
2018-01-06T12:46:29Z Shinmera: Passing structs by value requires cffi-libffi, so you need a C library anyway.
2018-01-06T12:47:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I tried that route, but didn't feel like figuring out a couple issues I ran into
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2018-01-06T12:47:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I need to sleep
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2018-01-06T13:11:00Z tomlukeywood: this :initial-contents complains about being of incorrect size
2018-01-06T13:11:01Z tomlukeywood: am i going insane or is this array not of correct size???
2018-01-06T13:11:01Z tomlukeywood: https://hastebin.com/jaqosenate.lisp
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2018-01-06T13:12:33Z pjb: tomhttps://hastebin.com/otofesojiw.lisp
2018-01-06T13:12:37Z pjb: tomlukeywood: https://hastebin.com/otofesojiw.lisp
2018-01-06T13:13:10Z tomlukeywood: ah.. that makes sense ty
2018-01-06T13:13:11Z pjb: tomlukeywood: lisp uses row-major indexing. cf. array-row-major-index
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2018-01-06T13:13:36Z pjb: Almost all languages use it; Fortran uses col-major indexing.
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2018-01-06T13:19:29Z Shinmera: Matlab and Fortran are the only two major languages I know of that use column-major.
2018-01-06T13:22:10Z tomlukeywood: when i define (defconstant dead " ") and then use dead in a list
2018-01-06T13:22:10Z tomlukeywood: it just evaluates to dead and not " ". why is this?
2018-01-06T13:22:25Z Bike: you mean in like '(dead)?
2018-01-06T13:22:30Z Bike: the quote suppresses evaluation
2018-01-06T13:22:34Z jcowan: Julia also uses column-major, because it uses so many Fortran packages
2018-01-06T13:23:19Z tomlukeywood: like here https://hastebin.com/onoviwicah.lisp
2018-01-06T13:23:35Z tomlukeywood: dont know why my editor has that weird tabbing...
2018-01-06T13:23:36Z Bike: right, it's quoted.
2018-01-06T13:23:49Z tomlukeywood: oh so i need to unquote
2018-01-06T13:24:01Z Shinmera: The quote does not "make a list". It returns a literal, which happens to be a list.
2018-01-06T13:24:06Z Shinmera: You create a list with LIST
2018-01-06T13:24:07Z Bike: well, actually, i'd just do ":initial-element dead" instead.
2018-01-06T13:24:17Z Bike: they maybe set the few alive elements
2018-01-06T13:24:21Z Bike: up to you of course
2018-01-06T13:24:32Z jcowan: R is also column-major, probably for the same reason
2018-01-06T13:24:47Z Shinmera: jcowan: Ah, good to know.
2018-01-06T13:24:50Z tomlukeywood: ok but just for future knowledge how do would i do this?
2018-01-06T13:25:06Z Bike: (list (list dead dead dead alive ...) ...)
2018-01-06T13:25:23Z tomlukeywood: ok ty
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2018-01-06T13:59:23Z pjb: Bike: if you show (list (list …)) for :initial-contents, you should mention to the naive newbie that this allocates a cons-based copy of all the data at run-time.  It would be better to (setf (aref m 0 0) dead (aref m 0 1) dead …) (possibly writting a macro to do it nicely).
2018-01-06T13:59:45Z Bike: i already suggested seetting things manually
2018-01-06T13:59:56Z pjb: Oh, ok. Sorry.
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2018-01-06T14:01:32Z pjb: And then it's ok for the newbies to do their own stuff and learn from it.
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2018-01-06T14:43:37Z dmiles: hrrm i wonder how bad it'd be if i left  (class-of :kw) returning   #<BUILT-IN-CLASS KEYWORD>
2018-01-06T14:44:34Z dmiles: instead of builtin class SYMBOL
2018-01-06T14:46:05Z Shinmera: The real question is why in the world you would make a distinction to begin with
2018-01-06T14:46:15Z Shinmera: Keywords are just symbols.
2018-01-06T14:46:49Z dmiles: in my impl.. i wrap the result of (type-of :KW)
2018-01-06T14:47:09Z dmiles: which is KEYWORD
2018-01-06T14:47:37Z dmiles: i guess it would mater for generic functions
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2018-01-06T14:48:42Z dmiles: of course they the class named KEYWORD is a subclass of class named SYMBOL so it wont hurt
2018-01-06T14:50:00Z dmiles: also the distinction is in my impl of keywords they are constantp  and the symbol-package, symbol-vlaue and symbol-function all go to the same code
2018-01-06T14:50:40Z Shinmera: If you unintern a keyword, would it still have the keyword class?
2018-01-06T14:50:50Z Shinmera: I'm guessing in your case yes, which would be pretty bad.
2018-01-06T14:51:07Z dmiles: ah i should find out if otehr lisps have my errant behavour in this case
2018-01-06T14:55:02Z Shinmera: Does type-of even have to return KEYWORD for keywords?
2018-01-06T14:55:36Z Shinmera: clhs type-of
2018-01-06T14:55:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2018-01-06T14:55:41Z Shinmera: Doesn't seem to require this.
2018-01-06T14:55:59Z dmiles: it is just popular that everyone does it
2018-01-06T14:56:21Z Shinmera: Well, either way, I don't think it makes sense to have a class for keywords.
2018-01-06T14:56:34Z Shinmera: As the "keywordness" is encoded in the symbol-package of a symbol.
2018-01-06T14:56:44Z Shinmera: Duplicating that information with a class just makes things iffy.
2018-01-06T14:57:37Z dmiles: ah yes.. indeed  (symbol-package ..) is the decider for keywordp
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2018-01-06T15:03:53Z dmiles: *nod* well thanks .. updating my impl and might even need to update the work impl https://sourceforge.net/p/larkc/code/HEAD/tree/branches/LarKC_CommonLisp_Extensions/platform/src/com/cyc/tool/subl/jrtl/nativeCode/type/symbol/SubLSymbolKeyword.java#168
2018-01-06T15:05:40Z dmiles: (work impl return SYMBOL for type-of :P)
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2018-01-06T17:19:54Z sigjuice: any suggestions for shorter SLIME key bindings?
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2018-01-06T17:26:09Z phoe: sigjuice: give us some examples, shorter than what?
2018-01-06T17:27:45Z sigjuice: like the ones in the Documentation menu or the Cross Reference menu.  C-c C-d C-d etc.
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2018-01-06T17:31:06Z jmercouris: I've inserted a break into my code, is there anyway I can inspect the value of variables at that point?
2018-01-06T17:31:24Z jmercouris: For example, my break is within a let binding, can I see what the values assigned to those bindings are?
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2018-01-06T17:36:15Z jmercouris: seems that I needed "optimize debug 3" at the top
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2018-01-06T17:40:52Z kenster: I'm livestreaming some programming in 20 minutes, 10AM pacific time. Join me! Unfortunately more C++ than lisp though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NkqJidhJto
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2018-01-06T17:47:26Z Shinmera: jmercouris: You can also use C-u C-c C-c to compile a function with max debug.
2018-01-06T17:48:41Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ok, thank you
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2018-01-06T17:49:14Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I can't find out what that's mapped to because immediately C-h k returns on C-u
2018-01-06T17:49:21Z jmercouris: Do you happen to know the function name?
2018-01-06T17:50:28Z Shinmera: It's slime-compile-defun, same as C-c C-c. C-u acts as "prefix argument"
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2018-01-06T17:51:05Z jmercouris: Ok, right, I forgot about prefix arguments as a concept
2018-01-06T17:51:34Z Shinmera: It is an obscure emacs feature
2018-01-06T17:51:59Z jmercouris: Well, idk, feels like it comes up all the time, e.g. C-u 70 ; for example
2018-01-06T17:52:06Z sigjuice: jmercouris btw. you can probably also use F1 k instead of C-h k
2018-01-06T17:52:09Z jmercouris: it's just that I never really think about it
2018-01-06T17:54:29Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I would but the F keys on my keyboards all behave differently so I tend to avoid them
2018-01-06T17:54:37Z jmercouris: thanks for the tip though
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2018-01-06T18:01:21Z jmercouris: Shinmera: You work a lot with CFFI, how do I know if a particular function is provided by a .so, is there a way to tell?
2018-01-06T18:01:50Z Shinmera: You get a warning if you compile a defcfun and it doesn't exist.
2018-01-06T18:01:53Z jmercouris: The reason I ask is because I've written a cffi:defcfun, and I'm not sure that the function even exists as I am getting non sensical data from evaluation
2018-01-06T18:02:16Z jmercouris: Shinmera: During compilation time it will load the shared library and make sure it exists?
2018-01-06T18:02:33Z sigjuice: jmercouris yes, F keys are not straightforward.  e.g. on my Mac, I use a utility to provide different F key behaviors for different apps.
2018-01-06T18:02:35Z Shinmera: It'll only load it if you tell it to load it.
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2018-01-06T18:03:15Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Calling an undefined function will error
2018-01-06T18:03:17Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I load it in my init.lisp, then I have another definition in a file loaded afterwards, therefore if I slime-load-system it, I would expect this to signal an error?
2018-01-06T18:03:30Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Okay, so if I am invoking it, it also is more proof that it exists
2018-01-06T18:03:35Z Shinmera: Yes.
2018-01-06T18:03:36Z jmercouris: Since I do not get a restart or anything
2018-01-06T18:03:47Z Shinmera: It's more likely that you've got the types wrong, or are sending wrong values.
2018-01-06T18:03:54Z jmercouris: Possibly
2018-01-06T18:04:03Z jmercouris: I asked ysterday if somebody would mind looking, could you look?
2018-01-06T18:04:06Z jmercouris: it is just one definition
2018-01-06T18:04:18Z Shinmera: With what library?
2018-01-06T18:04:24Z jmercouris: Library is webkit
2018-01-06T18:04:32Z jmercouris: webkitgtk+ to be specific
2018-01-06T18:04:32Z Shinmera: Okey
2018-01-06T18:04:40Z jmercouris: I have all the information in a gist
2018-01-06T18:04:47Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/a60c248a7166b70f028e4612369628c4
2018-01-06T18:04:58Z jmercouris: I grep'd the source for all of the types/etc
2018-01-06T18:05:15Z jmercouris: This is where I'm using it: https://gist.github.com/c25ebc01515acf239460c991a3534fbe
2018-01-06T18:05:29Z jmercouris: And finally, this is the example of C code doing what I'm trying to do: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitWebView.html#webkit-web-view-run-javascript-finish
2018-01-06T18:05:39Z jmercouris: if you only look at one thing, it is the first thing I am most unsure of
2018-01-06T18:08:14Z Shinmera: webkit_web_view_run_javascript_finish seems to take three args in the example
2018-01-06T18:08:17Z Shinmera: your code only has two
2018-01-06T18:08:32Z jmercouris: Shinmera: That's true, that's overridden in cl-webkit
2018-01-06T18:08:34Z jmercouris: one moment please
2018-01-06T18:09:00Z jmercouris: Shinmera: https://gist.github.com/14511c911241a51035011b3e1781c0f9
2018-01-06T18:09:17Z Shinmera: Ah, yeah, expected something like that
2018-01-06T18:09:52Z Shinmera: Alright so what's wrong with this? I can't really try this myself to see what's going on.
2018-01-06T18:10:25Z jmercouris: So I have some basic questions: does the JSCore implementation make sense based on what you see?
2018-01-06T18:10:51Z Shinmera: You mean your lisp snippet or?
2018-01-06T18:10:56Z jmercouris: Yeah my lisp snippet
2018-01-06T18:10:58Z jmercouris: The first gist
2018-01-06T18:12:00Z Shinmera: I guess. You don't check if what you're getting is actually a string or not.
2018-01-06T18:12:13Z jmercouris: That's okay with me, as I know it should be a string based on the JS I'm running
2018-01-06T18:12:42Z Shinmera: Other than that it seems like a correct translation. What you're doing won't give you a lisp string yet though.
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2018-01-06T18:12:55Z jmercouris: Yeah, I also had a foreign-string-to-lisp line in there
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2018-01-06T18:13:02Z Shinmera: That's not gonna work
2018-01-06T18:13:03Z jmercouris: but it was complaining that ^A was not a valid SAP
2018-01-06T18:13:26Z Shinmera: You need to use their routines to convert it to UTF8 first as they do in that example
2018-01-06T18:13:45Z jmercouris: I was afraid you would say that
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2018-01-06T18:14:02Z Shinmera: JS strings are usually implemented as chains of actual strings to make concatenation fast and crazy shit like that.
2018-01-06T18:14:17Z jmercouris: I just thought it might be in UTF-16 based on something I read earlier
2018-01-06T18:14:36Z jmercouris: okay, so if the structure could be very random, it makes sense that they have written a utility for conversion of js strings specificallly
2018-01-06T18:14:39Z Shinmera: should just be a bit more code and not really much overhead, so I don't know why this is such a big deal
2018-01-06T18:14:42Z jmercouris: well, not random, but yeah
2018-01-06T18:14:58Z jmercouris: Well, it's not a big deal, I'm just very unsure about my skills with CFFI, and I don't like introducing more unknowns
2018-01-06T18:15:05Z Shinmera: Once you have a pointer to the UTF8 string you can just foreign-string-to-lisp.
2018-01-06T18:15:08Z Shinmera: Heh
2018-01-06T18:15:11Z Shinmera: I know that feeling :)
2018-01-06T18:15:35Z Shinmera: Implementing native sound interfaces was a lot of not knowing what the hell is going on
2018-01-06T18:15:47Z jmercouris: Lol I imagine there isn't just a plethora of documentation
2018-01-06T18:15:56Z jmercouris: It's probably what it felt like programming in the 80s
2018-01-06T18:16:41Z Shinmera: There were docs (at least) but for Windows it was a clusterfuck and for Mac it was incomprehensible
2018-01-06T18:17:17Z Shinmera: In a surprising twist, Linux was actually sane and simple (at least ALSA & Pulse, haven't tried JACK or OSS)
2018-01-06T18:19:12Z jmercouris: Oh, how the times have changed
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2018-01-06T18:26:18Z mo`: I want to execute emacs in stumpwm and get the results. is this feasible using something like swank ? if not what could be a better approach?
2018-01-06T18:26:54Z jmercouris: What code are you writing that necesitates emacs as an execution environment? Anything possible in elisp is also possible in cl
2018-01-06T18:27:34Z mo`: jmercouris: for example I want to get the current playing track in emms. stuff like this. is this feasible or should I use something else like shared memory ?
2018-01-06T18:28:00Z Shinmera: Swank does have eval-in-emacs, but I don't know if it returns a result.
2018-01-06T18:28:16Z Shinmera: And if it does how exactly it converts values.
2018-01-06T18:28:23Z mo`: Shinmera: it does returns inside Emacs but doesn't work in stumpwm mode line
2018-01-06T18:28:54Z mo`: Shinmera: eval-in-emacs only works when I eval from Emacs
2018-01-06T18:30:02Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly eval-in-emacs requires a slime variable to be changed to allow it to work. And you need to actually connect to stump through slime, of course.
2018-01-06T18:30:23Z mo`: Shinmera: yeah I did that
2018-01-06T18:30:30Z Shinmera: Well then I don't know.
2018-01-06T18:30:49Z mo`: I'm not sure why but when I eval some emacs code in the mode line nothing show up
2018-01-06T18:31:32Z mo`: Shinmera: if using swank is not an option how would you do this ?
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2018-01-06T18:32:40Z _death: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsAsDaemon
2018-01-06T18:33:31Z mo`: _death: cool thanks I would have preferred doing this with a more elegant solution
2018-01-06T18:34:30Z _death: this is the elegant solution, since it seems you want to talk to the same emacs instance from multiple processes
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2018-01-06T18:35:50Z mo`: _death: cool thanks
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2018-01-06T19:04:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any emacs packages for refactoring common lisp?
2018-01-06T19:05:27Z Shinmera: There's various slime-who-* functions to find uses.
2018-01-06T19:05:35Z Shinmera: That's about the closest you're gonna get to refactoring tools.
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2018-01-06T19:44:01Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I've confirmed that it is in fact producing a string because I implemented js-value-is-string like in their example
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2018-01-06T19:44:35Z jmercouris: But when I run js-value-to-string-copy I don't get a pointer, I just get "[]" when I print it out and ^A when I try to pass it to JSStringGetMaximumUTF8CStringSize
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2018-01-06T19:48:39Z jmercouris: Ah, damnit, I had :string type for js-value-to-string-copy, it is a pointer it returns
2018-01-06T19:48:50Z jmercouris: because it is a JS String, not a real string as we discussed earlier
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2018-01-06T19:51:47Z Shinmera: Yea
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2018-01-06T19:57:29Z jmercouris: So now, I need a pointer to an address with space in front of it malloc'd how do I do this in CFFI?
2018-01-06T19:57:45Z jmercouris: Basically I need to do: str_value = (gchar *)g_malloc (str_length);
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2018-01-06T20:00:05Z Shinmera: malloc is just cffi:foreign-alloc
2018-01-06T20:00:27Z Shinmera: Which is the same as WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT just without the cleanup
2018-01-06T20:01:27Z jmercouris: Alright, that part I get now
2018-01-06T20:01:41Z jmercouris: but how do I do something like xyz* fish; in cffi?
2018-01-06T20:01:53Z jmercouris: sorry * in wrong place
2018-01-06T20:01:54Z jmercouris: xyz *fish;
2018-01-06T20:02:07Z Shinmera: You mean dereference the pointer?
2018-01-06T20:02:23Z jmercouris: No, I mean a declaration of a pointer to some thing
2018-01-06T20:02:32Z Shinmera: A pointer is just a pointer
2018-01-06T20:02:40Z Shinmera: The type is just in your head.
2018-01-06T20:02:41Z jmercouris: Okay fair enough, how can I make a pointer
2018-01-06T20:02:51Z Shinmera: foreign-alloc returns a pointer
2018-01-06T20:03:12Z Shinmera: Or a function that returns a pointer, well, returns a pointer
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2018-01-06T20:03:21Z jmercouris: Okay, so foreign-alloc allocates some memory, and gives a pointer to the address in memory in which it is allocated
2018-01-06T20:03:43Z Shinmera: It just gives you a pointer to the beginning of the region it just allocated
2018-01-06T20:03:49Z jmercouris: Right yeah
2018-01-06T20:03:54Z jmercouris: foreign-alloc is asking for a type though
2018-01-06T20:04:01Z Shinmera: That's just for the size
2018-01-06T20:04:17Z Shinmera: In your case it would be :char and then however big it needs to be
2018-01-06T20:04:34Z jmercouris: Okay, I see
2018-01-06T20:04:47Z Shinmera: Once you have stuff in your memory region, you use cffi:mem-ref to dereference the pointer and convert the data it points to to some lisp value.
2018-01-06T20:04:55Z jmercouris: and then I can pass this pointer to that function JSStringGetUTF8CString which will go ahead and populate tha tportion of memory with the string
2018-01-06T20:05:01Z Shinmera: Yeah
2018-01-06T20:05:09Z Shinmera: After that you can do (cffi:mem-ref ptr :string)
2018-01-06T20:05:21Z jmercouris: Okay great, let me give it a try
2018-01-06T20:05:22Z jmercouris: thanks
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2018-01-06T20:05:49Z Shinmera: It took me quite a bit of time to wrangle my brain around how things work with CFFI vs C, so don't worry if you're confused at first.
2018-01-06T20:05:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: doesn't cffi have some way of attaching type information to a pointer?
2018-01-06T20:06:06Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Would be news to me
2018-01-06T20:06:16Z jmercouris: Yeah, I was never a good C programmer to begin with, so it's like a double challenge :D
2018-01-06T20:06:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't used it much, but I got the impression that there's a way to have some sort of type-safety enforced on the CL-side
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2018-01-06T20:36:35Z jmercouris: cffi:foreign-alloc returns some sort of SAP, is this a pointer that I can directly pass to another function, or do I have to do something like cffi:memref to it?
2018-01-06T20:37:46Z Shinmera: It's a pointer
2018-01-06T20:38:03Z jmercouris: Ok great
2018-01-06T20:38:07Z jmercouris: I have some fantastic news then!
2018-01-06T20:38:10Z jmercouris: I GOT IT TO WORK!!!
2018-01-06T20:38:14Z jmercouris: I just tested it
2018-01-06T20:38:18Z Shinmera: (typep (cffi:foreign-alloc :char) 'cffi:foreign-pointer) ;=> T
2018-01-06T20:38:29Z jmercouris: Thanks a lot for your help, may I also list you in the credits or no?
2018-01-06T20:38:35Z Shinmera: Also, as mentioned above, I'd rather advise you to use WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT as that handles the deallocation on exit for you.
2018-01-06T20:38:40Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Do what you want
2018-01-06T20:38:40Z jmercouris: I know you did not literally contribute source code, but I would still be hitting my head against the wall otherwise
2018-01-06T20:39:04Z jmercouris: K, just wanted to make sure it would not bother you
2018-01-06T20:39:22Z Shinmera: I'm fairly open about my existence :^)
2018-01-06T20:39:24Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I should probably do that, but there are far bigger memory leaks than this
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2018-01-06T20:39:43Z jmercouris: This is like a pinhole next to the titanic iceberg that is the deallocation of destroyed webviews :D
2018-01-06T20:39:46Z Shinmera: Well, still better to take care of that now, you know?
2018-01-06T20:39:52Z jmercouris: Yeah
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2018-01-06T20:59:00Z sigjuice: is / in package names some sort of convention?  e.g. IOLIB/SOCKETS:SOCKET-ADDRESS-FAMILY
2018-01-06T20:59:41Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I think it's for subsystem packages
2018-01-06T20:59:48Z jmercouris: sigjuice: I could be wrong though
2018-01-06T21:00:02Z sigjuice: what is a subsystem package?
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2018-01-06T21:00:57Z trocado: ^_
2018-01-06T21:01:08Z Shinmera: sigjuice: It's a convention in the sense that "some people like it"
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2018-01-06T21:05:10Z sigjuice: Shinmera thanks. that is good to know.
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2018-01-06T21:24:39Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Just kind of a related package that is part of a bigger system
2018-01-06T21:24:47Z jmercouris: sigjuice: Probably tied to subsystems, just a guess here
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2018-01-06T21:25:27Z jmercouris: I'm saying because I have seen the convention of system x, then system x/y where x/y is a subsystem of x
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2018-01-06T21:27:32Z sigjuice: Shinmera speaking of things people like:  I was skimming through portacle/build/*.sh yesterday and discovered that bash function names can have - in them. So thanks for that too!
2018-01-06T21:27:49Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2018-01-06T21:29:28Z Shinmera: I did take some care to make the build scripts clean, but it could be better still.
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2018-01-06T22:17:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: asdf now sort of enforces it, though, if you define multiple systems in the same file
2018-01-06T22:18:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess that's not "packages, though"
2018-01-06T22:18:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: ...
2018-01-06T22:18:44Z Shinmera: The only instance in which it enforces it is if you use the package-inferred-system stuff
2018-01-06T22:18:49Z Shinmera: Which I'm not a fan of to begin with
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2018-01-06T22:25:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I put a license in my asd file, do I really need to include it in all the project files?
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2018-01-06T22:25:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess most licenses require something like a COPYING file.
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2018-01-06T22:26:19Z Shinmera: I'm no lawyer, etc, but I just include a LICENSE file that has the full text.
2018-01-06T22:27:10Z Shinmera: Adding a license header in each file can be useful if you have differing licenses in your project
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2018-01-06T22:32:53Z jcowan: COPYING is from the influence of the Gnu Project, but LICENSE is fine
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2018-01-06T22:32:57Z jmercouris: +1 on single license per repository, I think it is overkill to have it in each file
2018-01-06T22:33:27Z jmercouris: if I have sections that have different licenses, I have an license id which links to a documents directory containing that other project's license
2018-01-06T22:33:29Z jcowan: Usually what you want to put in each file is just the copyright notice and a pointer to a public copy of the license, since your file may get separated from the project.
2018-01-06T22:33:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just sort of wish that the license metadata in the system was sufficient :)
2018-01-06T22:33:54Z Shinmera: I mean
2018-01-06T22:33:55Z jmercouris: If your file get's separated from the project it is up to the person copying to do their due diligence that the software is not licensed somewhere else
2018-01-06T22:34:01Z Shinmera: the chances of you getting sued are practically nil so
2018-01-06T22:34:10Z jcowan: Mini-rant:  DO NOT bother updating the copyright date when you touch a file, much less as an annual ritual on all files.  Nobody *cares* whether your project goes into the public domain in 90 or 92 years.
2018-01-06T22:34:47Z Shinmera: and if the license note in the ASD is "not sufficient" you retain full copyright anyway, so if anything you'd be able to sue others for using your stuff.
2018-01-06T22:34:59Z jmercouris: jcowan: You know though, that's a good question, how much modification constitutes a new copyright, if I change one line in a 10 line file, are the other 9 lines up for grabs from their original day of release?
2018-01-06T22:35:10Z Shinmera: you put the license in your project clearly so that others are more secure in their rights
2018-01-06T22:35:15Z jcowan: De minimis non curat lex.
2018-01-06T22:35:17Z Shinmera: as in, it is clear to them that they may use your code
2018-01-06T22:35:24Z jcowan: ("The law takes no account of trifles.)
2018-01-06T22:35:29Z jmercouris: You are never ever giving away copyright, only permitting via a license, at least in the US
2018-01-06T22:35:52Z Shinmera: jmercouris: In the US you can sign away your copyright.
2018-01-06T22:35:57Z Shinmera: You cannot do that in the EU
2018-01-06T22:35:59Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I meant via default
2018-01-06T22:36:02Z jcowan: You *can* give away copyright; that's what a contributor license agreement generally does
2018-01-06T22:36:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, all employment contracts generally require that
2018-01-06T22:36:14Z jmercouris: Okay let me put it this way
2018-01-06T22:36:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: some of them even claim weekend projects.
2018-01-06T22:36:20Z jcowan: The FSF, for example, keeps copyright on all its projects so that they have the right to sue in respect of any of them.
2018-01-06T22:36:20Z jmercouris: Unless otherwise stated by the copyright holder they retain all copyright
2018-01-06T22:36:30Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-01-06T22:36:33Z jcowan: And while they have never sued anyone, they have most certainly threatened it.
2018-01-06T22:36:54Z jcowan: fiddlerwoaroof: In California such contract terms are void
2018-01-06T22:36:56Z jmercouris: The FSF are well intentioned, but I like them less as time goes on
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2018-01-06T22:37:08Z jcowan: jmercouris: Why in connection with this?
2018-01-06T22:37:28Z jmercouris: jcowan: Why what? Can you please rephrase the question
2018-01-06T22:37:38Z mgsk: Is it bad "form" to have nested defun's. Should I use flet/labels instead? Or just a matter of taste?
2018-01-06T22:38:03Z jmercouris: mgsk: I don't think it's a big problem, though I've never seen someone do it in source code, I'm sure some have strong opinions
2018-01-06T22:38:17Z rme: defun always makes global functions.  if you want local functions, use flet/labels.
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2018-01-06T22:38:51Z rme: So, in a word, yes.
2018-01-06T22:39:06Z rme: It is bad form.
2018-01-06T22:39:06Z mgsk: Got ya. Is it possible to trace flet/labels?
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2018-01-06T22:40:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: jcowan: the difficulty is that I'm pretty sure CA law requires that the side project be unrelated to your employer's line of work, so if you work for Google or some other company that does everything, the law doesn't really help (ianal, etc...)
2018-01-06T22:40:22Z Shinmera: mgsk: No
2018-01-06T22:40:27Z jmercouris: Well, my opinion about nested defuns changed a little bit :D
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2018-01-06T22:40:36Z jmercouris: seems to be much different behavior than other languages
2018-01-06T22:40:47Z jcowan: I did work for Google in NY (but CA law was explicitly extended for this case)
2018-01-06T22:40:48Z jmercouris: I would have expected a closure type behavior
2018-01-06T22:40:56Z Shinmera: mgsk: Nested defuns are gross and I've never seen any reason to do it
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2018-01-06T22:41:33Z Shinmera: If you need to trace, well, make them not local.
2018-01-06T22:41:36Z mgsk: Shinmera: I suppose I could just write a top-level defun for debugging and trace that, and move it out of the way when I'm done.
2018-01-06T22:41:42Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I personally use LICENSE.txt (because there are other valid format objects, e.g. LICENSE.md, which will make the file look better on source-viewing websites)
2018-01-06T22:41:53Z Shinmera: mgsk: There's also good 'ol FORMAT
2018-01-06T22:42:07Z mgsk: ?
2018-01-06T22:42:10Z aeth: COPYING should imo be reserved for GNU licenses (mostly GPL variants)
2018-01-06T22:42:14Z mgsk: oh for debugging
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2018-01-06T22:42:44Z jcowan: fiddlerwoaroof: You're right about that
2018-01-06T22:42:46Z jcowan: Any provision in an employment agreement which provides that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time without using the employer’s equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information except for those inventions that either:
2018-01-06T22:42:46Z jcowan: (1) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer; or
2018-01-06T22:42:46Z jcowan: (2) Result from any work performed by the employee for his employer.
2018-01-06T22:42:47Z jcowan: (b) To the extent a provision in an employment agreement purports to require an employee to assign an invention otherwise excluded from being required to be assigned under subdivision (a), the provision is against the public policy of this state and is unenforceable.
2018-01-06T22:42:52Z rme: If a local function is big and complicated enough that you want to trace it, it's probably better for it to be a top-level function anyway so that you can test it individually.
2018-01-06T22:42:56Z Shinmera: Please do not paste in here
2018-01-06T22:42:59Z rme: That's what I typically find, anyway.
2018-01-06T22:43:02Z Shinmera: especially not lawyerese
2018-01-06T22:43:15Z jcowan: oops, lost (a) in the copy and paste, it should be at the beginning
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2018-01-06T22:43:29Z Shinmera: jcowan: Use paste services if it's more than a line
2018-01-06T22:43:40Z mgsk: rme: I can understand that
2018-01-06T22:43:50Z jcowan: Shinmera: I'm operating with one hand today, or I would have typed it myself
2018-01-06T22:43:55Z jcowan: But okay
2018-01-06T22:44:11Z mgsk wonders what the other hand is doing
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2018-01-06T22:45:11Z aeth: mgsk: If you want lots of helper functions, there are two options you should do. Use flet/labels or simply define a %foo %bar and %baz at the top level and the % is a hint to the reader that they're used locally
2018-01-06T22:45:23Z aeth: If you're doing fancy things with them, it looks like you might want the latter style
2018-01-06T22:45:30Z aeth: Both are equally valid, I've used both and I've seen other people use both.
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2018-01-06T22:45:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I almost always end up breaking out flet/labels into toplevel funcitons
2018-01-06T22:45:59Z Shinmera: I use local functions relatively sparingly because they still create large blocks of stuff
2018-01-06T22:46:08Z aeth: flet/labels might give the compiler more information if you're not inlining them, though. e.g. SBCL will have "deleted unreachable code" warnings with labels if the internal function has branches that aren't used.
2018-01-06T22:46:34Z aeth: But SBCL doesn't really go much deeper than deleting unused branches afaik
2018-01-06T22:46:39Z aeth: Compilers could in theory do more
2018-01-06T22:47:13Z jcowan: In particular, they can be compiled as local jumps-with-renames when in tail position, which is very nice
2018-01-06T22:47:59Z jcowan: one of the cool applications of proper tail calling is state machines, where instead of having a variable encoding the state, you just tail-call the function which is the next state
2018-01-06T22:48:07Z aeth: The advantage of %foos is that you can use it for multiple functions in the same file, which is more common than you think.
2018-01-06T22:48:28Z aeth: jcowan: labels definitely seems very useful and interesting as a compilation target
2018-01-06T22:48:29Z Shinmera: jcowan: We already have tagbody for state machines
2018-01-06T22:48:36Z aeth: jcowan: as an alternative to tagbody
2018-01-06T22:48:57Z jcowan: True, though it isn't as clean: you have to (in effect) tail-call a tag, you cannot call it if that's what you want
2018-01-06T22:49:06Z Xach: I use labels state machines quite a bit. The driver is something like (setf state (funcall state next-input))
2018-01-06T22:49:07Z mgsk: aeth | The advantage of %foos is that you can use it for multiple functions in the same file, which is more common than you think.
2018-01-06T22:49:07Z aeth: The interesting thing about CL is that there's always 4 ways to do it
2018-01-06T22:49:12Z mgsk: Can you say more about that? I don't follow
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2018-01-06T22:49:29Z jcowan: mgsk: About what?
2018-01-06T22:49:50Z mgsk: Do you mean I might eventually like to have functionality from my label used outside of that label's scope? i.e. use it as a top-level function?
2018-01-06T22:49:59Z mgsk: jcowan that was @ aeth
2018-01-06T22:50:05Z aeth: mgsk: If you write a %foo, %bar, and %baz instead of using labels foo, bar, and baz, and otherwise treat them identically in the function foobar, then if you write a barfoo later on, you can simply use %foo and %baz in the same file, since they're local to the package and not local to the function
2018-01-06T22:50:10Z aeth: Instead of copying and pasting
2018-01-06T22:50:25Z mgsk: (although I didn't much follow what you had to say about the tail call stuff, jcowan :D)
2018-01-06T22:51:08Z jcowan: I have seen this %-convention before, but isn't it redundant to just not exporting the function symbol?
2018-01-06T22:51:27Z mgsk: aeth: of course if I found myself repeating things, then I would make it a more general defun.
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2018-01-06T22:51:47Z aeth: jcowan: Yes, but in CL you can do some-package::foo and access unexported symbols, so some-package::%foo is telling the user not to do that.
2018-01-06T22:52:02Z mgsk: (if you're usin packaging)
2018-01-06T22:52:10Z Shinmera: jcowan: Typically % signifies that the function might have more context that it needs, or requires additional intimate knowledge.
2018-01-06T22:52:15Z jcowan: IOW they are both permissive controls
2018-01-06T22:52:33Z aeth: http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2018-01-06T22:52:34Z jcowan: but one is a stronger control than another?
2018-01-06T22:52:35Z Shinmera: jcowan: Rather than something that you might be able to call and is just internal.
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2018-01-06T22:52:56Z aeth: cliki calls it: "low-level, fast, dangerous function, or Lisp system specific implementation of foo"
2018-01-06T22:53:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: what does that look like? Every time I've tried that, sbcl optimizes a bunch of the state functions away
2018-01-06T22:53:21Z aeth: But I've seen it used for things like e.g. helper functions for macros
2018-01-06T22:53:22Z jcowan: That says %foo is "low-level, fast, dangerous function, or Lisp system specific implementation of foo".  That makes more sense than just "internal".
2018-01-06T22:53:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Macrolet is pretty cool as a macroexpansion target too.
2018-01-06T22:54:02Z jcowan: Local macros are something I would never use myself
2018-01-06T22:54:19Z aeth: symbol-macrolet is used all of the time, although it's usually used indirectly via with-accessors
2018-01-06T22:54:31Z jcowan: Yes, that's a special case
2018-01-06T22:54:36Z aeth: It turns foo into (foo some-obj) automatically and saves a ton of typing and parentheses
2018-01-06T22:54:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't usually use them in normal code, but they're useful if you have a macro with a complicated syntax
2018-01-06T22:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. something dsl-y
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2018-01-06T22:55:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: you just expand to `(macrolet (...subforms) ,@body)
2018-01-06T22:55:43Z aeth: You should use stuff like that with care, though. Advanced macro usage might not be inspectable with M-.
2018-01-06T22:56:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: It is pretty inspectable with C-c M-e
2018-01-06T22:57:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: The slime macrostepper is pretty amazing
2018-01-06T22:58:24Z jcowan: I forget, are local macros allowed to be mutually recursive?
2018-01-06T22:58:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so: I'm pretty sure macroexpansion runs on the generated code until it stops changing
2018-01-06T23:00:10Z aeth: Iirc cl-sdl2 in its event handling code does something in macros where it manually replaces certain things while walking through the source code in with-sdl-event. Actually, it's really c-let in one of the libraries it uses. But, anyway, (event ...) looks like it exists and it really doesn't, and it was painful to figure out what it was doing. No M-., no C-c M-e.
2018-01-06T23:00:23Z aeth: That's the most annoying advanced macro usage I've seen.
2018-01-06T23:01:23Z aeth: Looks like it's really an autowrap thing
2018-01-06T23:01:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing that's nice about racket is that its macros are designed to give a good debugging experience
2018-01-06T23:02:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suspect something similar could be possible in CL, if there was a library for a consistent interface for things like source locations
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2018-01-06T23:03:27Z bms_: Hello. Is gitlab.common-lisp.net not working for anyone else? 502 error.
2018-01-06T23:03:55Z mgsk: bms_: 502
2018-01-06T23:03:56Z jmercouris: bms_: Also not working for me
2018-01-06T23:04:12Z jmercouris: bms_: In the future you can: http://isitdownrightnow.com
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2018-01-06T23:04:59Z bms_: Okay, thanks.
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2018-01-06T23:18:25Z raynold: Ahh it's a wonderful day
2018-01-06T23:18:31Z jcowan: mgsk: https://www.lua.org/pil/6.3.html is a good example of a tail recursive state machine.  It's in Lua, but should be readable.
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2018-01-06T23:19:16Z jcowan: "return foo()" is how you mark a tail call in Lua (I'm not sure why Lua doesn't just figure out where they are, but it doesn't)
2018-01-06T23:20:03Z sigjuice: Should &foo be listed as a convention here?  http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2018-01-06T23:20:36Z phoe: sigjuice: naming conventions for what?
2018-01-06T23:20:56Z phoe: &foo means that FOO is a lambda list keyword. and a list of these for portable code is constant.
2018-01-06T23:20:59Z phoe: clhs lambda-list-keywords
2018-01-06T23:20:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_lambda.htm
2018-01-06T23:22:51Z phoe: theoretically, implementations may extend this list; practically, your code won't use them anyway.
2018-01-06T23:24:37Z phoe: unless you're willing to do really weird stuff with reader conditionals like #+awesomecl (defun foo (&amazing bar) (frob bar))
2018-01-06T23:25:21Z sigjuice: &key etc. have special meaning according to the standard.  earmuffs don't.
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2018-01-06T23:26:21Z phoe: yes, and therefore it's not really a naming convention per se.
2018-01-06T23:26:27Z phoe: you don't name things with &foo.
2018-01-06T23:26:35Z jcowan: But it is a convention; you can write (defparameter &foo 32) and then &foo is an ordinary variable
2018-01-06T23:26:36Z p_l: sigjuice: earmuffs are social convention
2018-01-06T23:26:46Z phoe: you use the existing set of &allow-other-keys, &aux, &body, &environment, &key, &optional, &rest, and &whole.
2018-01-06T23:26:57Z phoe: jcowan: ew
2018-01-06T23:27:18Z jcowan: I agree, but that's because it violates a (strong) convention, not because it violates a rule of CL
2018-01-06T23:27:19Z phoe: in this case, yes, the convention says, for Naggum's sake don't do shit like this.
2018-01-06T23:27:30Z mgsk: Cheers, jcowan. Reading
2018-01-06T23:27:39Z jcowan: ergo it belongs in the list of conventions
2018-01-06T23:27:39Z phoe: just like (defvar
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2018-01-06T23:27:52Z phoe: (defvar |42| "dffsfd")
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2018-01-06T23:28:16Z jcowan: Vile and disgustium
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2018-01-06T23:28:31Z phoe: jcowan: correct. With a meaning of "don't use it in your naming".
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2018-01-06T23:31:39Z sigjuice: &key is not a naming convention. It can't really use !key or something else that I feel like.
2018-01-06T23:33:04Z sigjuice: nevermind. I think I have this backwords :p
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2018-01-06T23:34:19Z mgsk: jcowan: tail call optimisation seems like such an obvious thing to do. I wonder why python doesn't do it. Maybe it's harder than it looks.
2018-01-06T23:34:36Z mgsk: jcowan: also I don't see the importance of "state machine" in that article, but interesting nevertheless.
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2018-01-06T23:37:40Z phoe: mgsk: not always obvious.
2018-01-06T23:38:02Z phoe: suppose that you want to see all stack frames for debugging purposes. suddenly, you can't TCO.
2018-01-06T23:40:03Z mgsk: But what if you only write bug-free?
2018-01-06T23:40:24Z jcowan laughs
2018-01-06T23:41:16Z jcowan: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html
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2018-01-06T23:59:32Z selwyn: is there anyone here who is working on gsll?
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2018-01-07T00:00:40Z selwyn: the version on quicklisp uses gsl v2.3
2018-01-07T00:01:07Z selwyn: i added a few small changes to expose v2.4 functionality which i am using in my project
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2018-01-07T00:03:23Z selwyn: specifically relating to hermite polynomials
2018-01-07T00:04:14Z jcowan: not to be confused with hermite crabs
2018-01-07T00:04:22Z selwyn: i would be happy to turn it into a patch, though i wonder if it is planned to move to v2.4 or not
2018-01-07T00:06:09Z selwyn: also the 'gitlab common lisp' is down, hopefully this is temporary
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2018-01-07T00:13:09Z jmercouris: You know, I'm not sure sure common-lisp.net has any active administration, I emailed about getting a mailing list like 2 months or so ago, and had no response
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2018-01-07T00:18:06Z dmiles: jmercouris: might try #common-lisp.net
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2018-01-07T00:41:16Z jmercouris: thanks for the tip, at this point though I've kinda resigned to just running my own server at some point if nEXT gets big enough
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2018-01-07T00:43:01Z bms_: jmercouris: You make the nEXT browser? I've been hearing about it for a while and now that I'm taking a look at it, it looks really nice.
2018-01-07T00:44:05Z jmercouris:  bms_ Well, it isn't just me, but I am the main author yeah
2018-01-07T00:44:11Z jmercouris: thank you for the kind words
2018-01-07T00:44:59Z bms_: Sure thing. I'm setting up my new laptop right now and think it might be a good opportunity to use nEXT as much as I can.
2018-01-07T00:45:52Z jmercouris: Are you on Linux or MacOS?
2018-01-07T00:46:01Z bms_: Linux.
2018-01-07T00:46:22Z jmercouris: Okay, well, a few things remain till I merge GTK in main branch, but I will keep this channel updated, so you'll definitely see it!
2018-01-07T00:46:33Z Baggers: jmercouris: keep up the good work, since vimperator died I'm very tempted to switch
2018-01-07T00:46:47Z bms_: Okay, thanks.
2018-01-07T00:46:47Z jmercouris: Baggers: Thank you :) I hope it will meet your expectations!
2018-01-07T00:48:01Z p_l: to be truly switchable it need µBlock Origin and/or µMatrix :)
2018-01-07T00:48:27Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, that's a challenge that because I'd need to do stuff for the network stack on both Cocoa/Linux, unless I do some naieve js blocking, which is of course possible
2018-01-07T00:48:56Z jmercouris: Belive me, I wish I had an ad-blocker every day
2018-01-07T00:49:09Z jmercouris: It's pretty high up on there on my todo list lol
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2018-01-07T01:22:20Z jmercouris: jasom: Are you there?
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2018-01-07T01:30:19Z Xach: Hmm, is there a way to have 600.0 print as 600 but 600.12345 print as 600.12?
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2018-01-07T01:30:36Z Xach: I can think of many ways to clean up after
2018-01-07T01:31:26Z jmercouris: minion: memo for jasom: lparallel waiting on a promise for js seems to freeze execution, what could possibly be occuring? I guess that the callback is executed on the same thread, and thus never returns since force is blocking: https://gist.github.com/6ced6e99634f2c10994753c679bacdb2
2018-01-07T01:31:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jasom when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-07T01:45:00Z gilberth: Hi there --- this is off topic --- but is anybody digging the Meltdown exploit? I have not seen any PoC yet, that would allow me to read^Wmeasure more than the L1 cache.
2018-01-07T01:46:49Z Xach: gilberth: this is not a good place
2018-01-07T01:47:28Z gilberth: Xach: Sorry, but I figure, that I'll find the best hackers in #lisp.
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2018-01-07T01:49:01Z Xach: gilberth: They are here to discuss common lisp
2018-01-07T01:49:41Z gilberth: Xach: Sorry again, I am pretty aware of this.
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2018-01-07T02:14:33Z jmercouris: I have a piece of code that I am trying to make synchronous, so in webkit you call something called https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitWebView.html#webkit-web-view-run-javascript which you pass a callback to
2018-01-07T02:14:50Z jmercouris: so at the conclusion of the JS execution, this callback will be invoked
2018-01-07T02:15:02Z craft00: hello, anybody know about common lisp game in irc now?
2018-01-07T02:15:06Z jmercouris: From what I can tell, the js call, and the callback appear to occur on the same thread
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2018-01-07T02:15:28Z jmercouris: craft00: Like game engines or?
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2018-01-07T02:15:52Z craft00: no, just a chanel
2018-01-07T02:15:53Z jmercouris: Anyways, I tried to use a promise in order to wait for the callback to be invoked, this caused my system to hang
2018-01-07T02:16:01Z jmercouris: craft00: lispgames I think is the name
2018-01-07T02:16:05Z jmercouris: Something like that
2018-01-07T02:16:55Z aeth: Yes, it's #lispgames
2018-01-07T02:17:18Z craft00: I just try to join it, but false
2018-01-07T02:17:29Z jmercouris: maybe there are two pound signs?
2018-01-07T02:17:42Z aeth: It might require registered nicks because of the recent spam attack on Freenode
2018-01-07T02:17:47Z craft00: now I need a tutorial about game programming by common lisp
2018-01-07T02:18:00Z jmercouris: craft00: That really depends on which framework/path you go
2018-01-07T02:18:09Z jmercouris: There's no de-facto lisp game engine standard
2018-01-07T02:18:21Z jmercouris: It's not like C# or something
2018-01-07T02:18:46Z craft00: something for me to begin programming games?
2018-01-07T02:18:47Z aeth: There are 3 2D and 3 3D engines/frameworks that are released to some degree, and probably just as many that are unreleased.
2018-01-07T02:19:12Z craft00: ok, bad thing
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2018-01-07T02:19:27Z jmercouris: So, anyways, the issue is, webkit_web_view_run_javascript will invoke the callback, so how can I make sure it is on a new thread so that my function can complete upon the js callback?
2018-01-07T02:19:43Z aeth: 2D: https://github.com/vydd/sketch https://gitlab.com/dto/xelf/ https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/
2018-01-07T02:19:56Z aeth: 3D: https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl https://github.com/BradWBeer/clinch https://github.com/borodust/cl-bodge
2018-01-07T02:20:13Z aeth: All of them use OpenGL (via cl-opengl), most of them use SDL2 through cl-sdl2, either directly or indirectly
2018-01-07T02:20:18Z craft00: a documentation?
2018-01-07T02:20:25Z aeth: Some of the higher level ones are based on the lower level ones, too
2018-01-07T02:20:42Z aeth: Documentation is the weak point of the Lisp community.
2018-01-07T02:20:45Z aeth: Some of these might have documentation
2018-01-07T02:20:58Z aeth: Some of these have videos
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2018-01-07T02:21:45Z craft00: detail?
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2018-01-07T02:23:40Z craft00: how do i start with lisp game programming?
2018-01-07T02:23:57Z aeth: #lispgames would probably be more helpful
2018-01-07T02:24:55Z craft00: #lispgames Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services
2018-01-07T02:24:59Z craft00: how can i do that?
2018-01-07T02:25:05Z aeth: You need to register with nickserv
2018-01-07T02:25:22Z aeth: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration
2018-01-07T02:25:53Z jmercouris: it's such a pain to register on freenode, documentation out of date on so many sources
2018-01-07T02:26:06Z aeth: the top result is out of date information that's marked as such!
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2018-01-07T02:26:18Z aeth: my link is the #2 result, which isn't marked as out of date (doesn't mean it's not out of date)
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2018-01-07T02:28:36Z aeth: I don't like the traditional IRC way of identifying. Fortunately, you can set IRC to auto identify you on connection, at least on Freenode
2018-01-07T02:29:05Z aeth: The traditional way, of messaging NickServ, can lead to you accidentally messaging Nick "Serv <whatever you tried to send>"
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2018-01-07T02:31:07Z aeth: It's up there with shell scripting as being very easy to shoot yourself in the foot with a simple typo.
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2018-01-07T02:32:22Z jmercouris: That's true, autoidentification is nice
2018-01-07T02:33:00Z p_l: SASL on IRC is nice
2018-01-07T02:33:32Z craft00: that's nice, thank you all
2018-01-07T02:35:42Z jmercouris: No problem :)
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2018-01-07T03:42:03Z craft00: Hi, I need some help for my problem. when I installing "http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge/archive/bodge-blobs-windows-x86-64-20171212213226.tgz">, It was an error look up: debugger invoked on a QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA in thread #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10019B6793}>:   Condition QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA was signalled. How do I fix that?
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2018-01-07T03:43:18Z Xach: craft00: in my experience, it is usually because of a http proxy or something similar.
2018-01-07T03:43:35Z craft00: and?
2018-01-07T03:43:58Z Xach: craft00: and you need to avoid or work with the proxy. do you have a proxy involved that you know of?
2018-01-07T03:44:27Z craft00: Oh no, I don't
2018-01-07T03:44:55Z craft00: So I need to connect a proxy and download again?
2018-01-07T03:45:07Z Xach: craft00: No. If you don't have a proxy, it must be something else.
2018-01-07T03:45:31Z craft00: something what?
2018-01-07T03:45:37Z Xach: Else.
2018-01-07T03:46:23Z Xach: craft00: Do you have other computers you could try it from?
2018-01-07T03:46:42Z craft00: No, I don't
2018-01-07T03:46:54Z Xach: I've been able to use it successfully myself, I am using a mac.
2018-01-07T03:47:19Z craft00: rich man
2018-01-07T03:47:22Z Xach: craft00: Where are you located? Is there a national proxy or firewall?
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2018-01-07T03:47:43Z craft00: I'm using linux debian
2018-01-07T03:47:45Z Xach: Might there be an anti-virus program intercepting http traffic?
2018-01-07T03:48:14Z craft00: No, I don't thing so.
2018-01-07T03:48:27Z Xach: craft00: Does it happen if you try the same command again?
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2018-01-07T03:48:37Z craft00: something bad happend but I don't know how to fix it :(
2018-01-07T03:48:54Z craft00: I tried
2018-01-07T03:48:57Z Xach: craft00: Where are you located? Is the network relatively slow or prone to interruption?
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2018-01-07T03:49:44Z craft00:  8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24933 ttl=48 time=32.1 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24934 ttl=48 time=32.2 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24935 ttl=48 time=32.1 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24936 ttl=48 time=32.1 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24937 ttl=48 time=32.1 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24938 ttl=48 time=32.3 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24939 ttl=48 time=32.0 ms 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=24940 ttl=48 t
2018-01-07T03:49:59Z Xach: That does not have much meaning
2018-01-07T03:50:02Z craft00: I don't think my network is slow
2018-01-07T03:50:21Z craft00: why not?
2018-01-07T03:50:24Z Xach: craft00: What command did you use when you got that error?
2018-01-07T03:50:47Z Xach: craft00: 8.8.8.8 is regionally routed
2018-01-07T03:50:52Z craft00: ctrl-C and try again
2018-01-07T03:51:23Z Xach: Pinging bodge.borodust.org would be more relevant
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2018-01-07T03:53:38Z craft00: root [~] ping bodge.borodust.org PING bodge.borodust.org (128.199.46.62) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from borodust.org (128.199.46.62): icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=1191 ms
2018-01-07T03:53:49Z craft00: well, it's slow
2018-01-07T03:53:52Z craft00: bad thing
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2018-01-07T03:54:28Z Xach: that could be a source of trouble.
2018-01-07T03:54:37Z craft00: any solution to fix it?
2018-01-07T03:55:05Z Xach: When I had a similar problem I paid to use a content-delivery network. But that is up to borodust.
2018-01-07T03:55:20Z Xach: I don't know what you can do on your end, sorry.
2018-01-07T03:55:57Z craft00: ok friend
2018-01-07T03:56:04Z Xach: Well, I do have one idea!
2018-01-07T03:56:10Z Xach: It is not great but it might work.
2018-01-07T03:57:31Z Xach: craft00: Do you have a ~/quicklisp/dists/org.borodust.bodge/archives/ directory?
2018-01-07T03:58:14Z craft00: yes, so?
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2018-01-07T03:58:40Z Xach: craft00: from that directory, the following command might install everything you need
2018-01-07T03:59:02Z Xach: for f in $(awk '{print $2}' < ../releases.txt );do curl -O $f;done
2018-01-07T03:59:14Z craft00: oh dear, I understand, I will do it
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2018-01-07T04:05:05Z Xach: craft00: how is it going?
2018-01-07T04:05:48Z craft00: I trying to download it and I will install it by hand :))
2018-01-07T04:06:11Z craft00: few seconds to done
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2018-01-07T04:08:50Z Xach: after those files are fetched, quicklisp should be able to operate on them as though they were downloaded with quicklisp.
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2018-01-07T04:13:09Z craft00: I got it :))), thank to you
2018-01-07T04:13:21Z craft00: ~/quicklisp/dists/org.borodust.bodge/archives/ directory thank for it
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2018-01-07T04:39:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-07T04:40:37Z jasom: Good morning
2018-01-07T04:40:37Z minion: jasom, memo from jmercouris: lparallel waiting on a promise for js seems to freeze execution, what could possibly be occuring? I guess that the callback is executed on the same thread, and thus never returns since force is blocking: https://gist.github.com/6ced6e99634f2c10994753c679bacdb2
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2018-01-07T04:41:17Z jasom: minion: memo for jmercouris: I thought I checked that we aren't on the GTK thread for my macro; did I PR an older version?
2018-01-07T04:41:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-07T04:47:06Z pransninja: It is crazy how simple lisp is yet it looks so complicated.
2018-01-07T04:47:23Z beach: Doesn't look complicated to me.
2018-01-07T04:47:27Z pransninja: before learning lisp,  (map 'vector #'1+ *v*) would have looked so strange to me.
2018-01-07T04:47:31Z pransninja: come on.
2018-01-07T04:47:37Z pransninja: Does that read simple to you?
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2018-01-07T04:47:59Z bms_: It looks weird if you don't know it, definitely.
2018-01-07T04:48:15Z pransninja: It is a simple construct, but every token requires understanding what it means in the given context.
2018-01-07T04:48:34Z beach: pransninja: That's the same thing with every language.  Nothing special here.
2018-01-07T04:48:37Z pransninja: I think that is the *hard* part of lisp, it is rather contextual, in contrast to more _modern_ languages.
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2018-01-07T04:49:38Z bms_: Well, it's really only complicated because it looks nothing like most other languages. S-exps probably scare some people off.
2018-01-07T04:49:42Z beach: Clearly, if you have studied the same family of languages for a long time and then you discover that there are languages that are different, then they look hard to begin with.  Again, nothing new.
2018-01-07T04:49:54Z pransninja: No.
2018-01-07T04:49:58Z pransninja: beach: That is not the point.
2018-01-07T04:50:08Z pjb: pransninja: and map(VECTOR,add1,v); wouldn't have looked strange to you?
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2018-01-07T04:51:32Z Bike: ', #', and ** almost always mean the same things
2018-01-07T04:51:40Z Bike: regardless of context i mean
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2018-01-07T04:52:25Z bms_: It depends on where you're coming from. If you started in C-style languages (like I did), map(VECTOR, add1, v); looks normal.
2018-01-07T04:52:37Z Bike: sure, but it's this complaint about context i don't get
2018-01-07T04:52:39Z pjb: Anyways, the problem with other languages is that you assume the context and meaning of what you read, and you're wrong almost all the time, without knowing it.
2018-01-07T04:52:40Z jmercouris: jasom: this isn't for your macro, it's for the js execution which I also need to synchronize
2018-01-07T04:52:40Z minion: jmercouris, memo from jasom: I thought I checked that we aren't on the GTK thread for my macro; did I PR an older version?
2018-01-07T04:52:46Z Bike: those things don't have different meanings in different contexts
2018-01-07T04:53:08Z jmercouris: jasom: I tried following your approach (at least I think I did), but couldn't get execution to not freeze
2018-01-07T04:53:10Z Bike: you have to know what MAP is going to do with them, but that's just a matter of knowing what one function does, which is a pretty common thing across programming languages
2018-01-07T04:53:13Z pjb: for example, people believe that in C a+b will add two integers.  Wrong!
2018-01-07T04:53:21Z jmercouris: pjb: How so?
2018-01-07T04:53:51Z pransninja: Bike: I think lisp reuses many of the tokens in strange ways.
2018-01-07T04:53:58Z pransninja: * has so many meanings lisp.
2018-01-07T04:54:02Z pjb:  if a and b are unsigned, it's a modular operation, otherwise it's unspecified when the sum cannot be held in the signed result type.
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2018-01-07T04:54:15Z pransninja: Where in most languages, it just *, maybe there is the ** power, and C-block comments, but * is just that.
2018-01-07T04:54:20Z pransninja: Also, - means mines.
2018-01-07T04:54:22Z beach: jmercouris: And one could be a pointer.
2018-01-07T04:54:37Z pransninja: So a-b is a minus b, but in lisp, it is not minus at all.
2018-01-07T04:54:39Z Bike: in lisp it's just a part of a token, though those tokens indeed have different conventional meanings
2018-01-07T04:54:48Z jasom: jmercouris: you will deadlock if you block on a promise that is submitted to the current thread
2018-01-07T04:54:49Z pransninja: Yes.
2018-01-07T04:54:55Z Bike: so it's not that things are different in different contexts, it's just that lisp is lexed differently than you're used to
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2018-01-07T04:54:59Z jmercouris: jasom: Right, that makes sense of course
2018-01-07T04:55:11Z pransninja: Whatever conventional or part of language makes little different that same token means different things.
2018-01-07T04:55:16Z jasom: jmercouris: easiest way to check is to just add a line that prints the name of the current thread before you block on the promise.  Then when you deadlock the last name printed is what caused the issue
2018-01-07T04:55:17Z jmercouris: jasom: The issue therefore how I might get the callback to invoke on a separate thread
2018-01-07T04:55:18Z pjb: pransninja: * is a symbol, it has only few meanings: as a function it's the multiplication, as a variable, it's most recent primary result, in type specifiers, it denotes some type or dimension wild-card.
2018-01-07T04:55:38Z pjb: pransninja: what you don't belong is that *a* is not different from xax syntactically.
2018-01-07T04:55:43Z Bike: #' and ' however don't have as many meanings, and mean the same thing practically anywhere in a lisp program except in a string
2018-01-07T04:55:43Z pransninja: pjb: in variable names, as *ear-muffs* it is something else.
2018-01-07T04:55:48Z jmercouris: jasom: (print bt:thread-name)?
2018-01-07T04:55:56Z pransninja: What other language exists where * can exist in so many different ways?
2018-01-07T04:55:58Z pjb: No, it doesn't mean anything in *eaer-muffs*!
2018-01-07T04:56:00Z jasom: if you know it's issuing on the same thread, no need to do a promise
2018-01-07T04:56:02Z jasom: jmercouris: yeah
2018-01-07T04:56:05Z jmercouris: I am pretty confident that is the issue, but I guess it is best to check
2018-01-07T04:56:12Z jasom: jmercouris: probably ad a (Terpri) as well
2018-01-07T04:56:25Z Bike: pransninja: any other language that allows * as part of a token, probably. this seems like a mere convention difference than something very deep.
2018-01-07T04:56:35Z pjb: pransninja: read chapter 2.
2018-01-07T04:56:40Z pransninja: Bike: Can you give me an example?
2018-01-07T04:56:48Z Bike: of another language that has * as part of tokens?
2018-01-07T04:56:50Z jmercouris: jasom: Okay, I still need some way to block though, because even though it may be on the same thread, C is invoking the callback at some time after my function already returns
2018-01-07T04:56:58Z pransninja: pjb: I am on chapter 11, so obviously I know lisp pretty damn well ;)
2018-01-07T04:56:59Z jasom: parjanya: it's like FOO_BAR for constants in C;
2018-01-07T04:57:04Z pransninja: Bike: Can you name one?
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2018-01-07T04:57:19Z Bike: not off the top of my head, no. that wasn't really my point, though.
2018-01-07T04:57:25Z pransninja: Also, a language where allows - in names.
2018-01-07T04:57:32Z pransninja: Bike: I think there isn't any.
2018-01-07T04:57:36Z jmercouris: jasom: See this line here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/gtk/next/source/gtk/gtk.lisp#L227
2018-01-07T04:57:41Z Bike: you were phrasing your complaint as some deep property of language design but it sounds like it's coming down to using characters in ways you aren't used to.
2018-01-07T04:57:43Z jmercouris: Or rather that function
2018-01-07T04:57:46Z pransninja: Which makes lisp/scheme et al more contextual.
2018-01-07T04:57:51Z Bike: how is it "contextual"?
2018-01-07T04:57:54Z jasom: jmercouris: you can't do it blocking if you only have an async call and you are already running in the thread in which it will be run
2018-01-07T04:58:12Z jasom: jmercouris: call/cc would allow this, but it exists not in common lisp
2018-01-07T04:58:18Z Bike: in C "-" means things in different contexts, and can't be part of a token except maybe if it's in a trigraph
2018-01-07T04:58:27Z Bike: part of a symbol, rather
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2018-01-07T04:58:32Z pransninja: Bike: different things, as in?
2018-01-07T04:58:35Z bms_: I think Apple's Swift might allow * in variable names. It allows emoji (who knows why?) and I don't remember * meaning anything else in Swift.
2018-01-07T04:58:44Z pjb: there are no symbols in C, only identifiers and other such tokens.
2018-01-07T04:58:45Z jmercouris: jasom: What if I were to spawn a new thread for the call and have the promise in the main thread or something?
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2018-01-07T04:58:57Z bms_: Of course, I could be wrong, I never went too far with Swift.
2018-01-07T04:59:07Z Bike: in C it can be the - binary operator, the - unary operator, --, ??-
2018-01-07T04:59:22Z Bike: it's a bit confusing at first, but usually doesn't present a problem, at least speaking for myself
2018-01-07T04:59:29Z pjb:  -=
2018-01-07T04:59:33Z pjb: ->
2018-01-07T04:59:37Z jasom: jmercouris: there is no need to do a callback at all if you are already in the main thread, right?
2018-01-07T04:59:43Z Bike: * of course means both multiplication and dereference, which does sometimes confuse me, but i don't think this is a major flaw or anything
2018-01-07T04:59:48Z pransninja: pjb: okay, maybe you have a point.
2018-01-07T05:00:06Z pransninja: But I still feel like lisp overloads many of the tokens.
2018-01-07T05:00:09Z Bike: though the lexer hack could be considered a real flaw.
2018-01-07T05:00:13Z pransninja: but that is my impression so far anyways.
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2018-01-07T05:00:24Z resttime: It's contextual in C++ too I think as well since you can overload operators
2018-01-07T05:00:28Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm not opting for doing a callback, that's the nature of the webkit api
2018-01-07T05:00:38Z pransninja: resttime: Yes. true.
2018-01-07T05:00:59Z pransninja: I think I am over stating how contextual stuff are in lisp compared to other languages.
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2018-01-07T05:01:15Z pransninja: But good lord  (map 'vector #'1+ *v*) still looks weird to me. :P
2018-01-07T05:01:24Z Bike: i don't understand the "contextual" part. in lisp, outside of strings and stuff * is always part of a symbol. as it happens, * is a symbol with pretty different meanings from *v*, but that's just because they're different names. "print" and "function" mean pretty different things as well, sort of deal
2018-01-07T05:02:04Z pjb: pransninja: you can write it as: (map (quote vector) (function add1) v)
2018-01-07T05:02:10Z beach: pransninja: Yes, we get it.  Just don't imagine this is an objective observation.  It is all relative to what you already know.
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2018-01-07T05:02:40Z pjb: pransninja: with: (defun add1 (x) (1+ x)) (let ((v *v*))   (map (quote vector) (function add1) v))
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2018-01-07T05:02:50Z pransninja: pjb: But is that lisp "proper"?
2018-01-07T05:02:55Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-07T05:02:58Z pransninja: I still have to be able to read how people write lisp
2018-01-07T05:03:01Z jmercouris: jasom: Something like this: https://gist.github.com/6d6983aae8d089861805defe5b055ad8
2018-01-07T05:03:11Z jmercouris: Am I making sense or is this not possible?
2018-01-07T05:03:16Z aeth: pransninja: *v* is supposed to look weird to you. You shouldn't use *...*s unless you have a good reason, which is why they stand out
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2018-01-07T05:03:40Z aeth: 1+ is perfectly natural. 1- is... unfortunate. (1- x) looks like (1 - x) but is really (x - 1)
2018-01-07T05:03:45Z loli: isn't *..* because the variables are dynamic
2018-01-07T05:03:51Z loli: and thus denote they have special scoping
2018-01-07T05:03:56Z pransninja: aeth: I thought globals were meant to have earmuffs?
2018-01-07T05:03:56Z aeth: inc and dec probably would have been more natural than 1+ and 1-, and would have had parallels in incf and decf
2018-01-07T05:04:03Z jasom: jmercouris: there's no point to the (force promise) at the end
2018-01-07T05:04:08Z aeth: pransninja: dynamically scoped globals
2018-01-07T05:04:16Z pransninja: so defvars?
2018-01-07T05:04:20Z aeth: and defparameter
2018-01-07T05:04:30Z pransninja: cool beans
2018-01-07T05:04:33Z pransninja: back to reading I go
2018-01-07T05:04:37Z pransninja: you guys are a good bunch.
2018-01-07T05:04:40Z jasom: jmercouris: you have to force the promise on a new thread, and if you are, then it's no longer synchronouse
2018-01-07T05:04:41Z aeth: Implementations can have lexically scoped globals, they're just not portable
2018-01-07T05:05:05Z jmercouris: jasom: In the example I gave, web-view-execute will return BEFORE the callback is invoked
2018-01-07T05:05:07Z aeth: And you can have local dynamically scoped things, they're just not useful unless you're overriding a global, e.g. you can do this: (let ((*standard-output* some-stream)) ...)
2018-01-07T05:05:12Z pransninja: Note: guys was used in a general sense and I do not condone the exclusion of people based on gender or other kind of identity.
2018-01-07T05:05:14Z pransninja: lel.
2018-01-07T05:05:20Z aeth: The point of these variables are so you don't need to pass streams all the way down the call stack to where you actually print
2018-01-07T05:05:29Z aeth: And you can just use format t or whatever if you rebind *standard-output*
2018-01-07T05:05:32Z jmercouris: jasom: At least I believe it to be so
2018-01-07T05:05:37Z aeth: (At least, as long as you stay wtihin a thread. Threads make them complicated.)
2018-01-07T05:05:48Z jmercouris: jasom: Is there no way that I may get the return value of the callback within web-view-execute?
2018-01-07T05:06:40Z jasom: jmercouris: it *must* return before the callback is invoked *if* you are in the thread in which it will be invoked
2018-01-07T05:07:18Z jasom: if you can manage to not ever call web-view-execute from the thread in which the callback will execute then you can make it blocking
2018-01-07T05:07:18Z jmercouris: jasom: Ok, let me verify that assumption first, one moment please
2018-01-07T05:07:46Z jmercouris: jasom: I'm afraid if I change the context of that call, then the callback will also execute in that new thread
2018-01-07T05:08:13Z jmercouris: which is why I wanted a macro like (execute-in-new-thread) or something where I could do the webkit-web-view-run-javascript call
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2018-01-07T05:09:16Z jasom: jmercouris: the callback can only be scheduled in a thread that is running an event loop for webkit
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2018-01-07T05:10:23Z jasom: jmercouris: there's no magic here
2018-01-07T05:10:24Z pransninja: What is the difference between Vectors and Lists? #() vs '()?
2018-01-07T05:10:35Z jasom: pransninja: one is a linked list, the other is a vector
2018-01-07T05:10:39Z loli: they are different data structures
2018-01-07T05:10:46Z jasom: pransninja: as in the CS 101 definition of those two terms
2018-01-07T05:10:52Z pransninja: lists are linked list?
2018-01-07T05:10:55Z jasom: pransninja: yes
2018-01-07T05:10:56Z loli: yes
2018-01-07T05:11:00Z Bike: the links are cons cells.
2018-01-07T05:11:01Z pransninja: righto.
2018-01-07T05:11:02Z jmercouris: pransninja: They don't have to be, but in the context of lisp, yes
2018-01-07T05:11:11Z pransninja: So very expensive to walk through compared to vectors?
2018-01-07T05:11:31Z loli: arbitrary access is expensive, not walking through
2018-01-07T05:11:37Z jmercouris: pransninja: Not necessarily, a linked list may have a data structure on top like a skip list, or something
2018-01-07T05:11:37Z pransninja: jasom: CS 101 covers vectors and lists in a language agnostic way? ;)
2018-01-07T05:11:39Z loli: lists are very easy to deconstruct
2018-01-07T05:11:39Z Bike: linear rather than constant time random access.
2018-01-07T05:11:46Z Bike: pransninja: well, hopefully
2018-01-07T05:12:03Z jmercouris: pransninja: Or it could be an arraylist
2018-01-07T05:12:07Z jasom: pransninja: walking them is identical asymptotically, random access is slow on lists
2018-01-07T05:12:19Z loli: arraylists are really just extensible arrays
2018-01-07T05:12:26Z jmercouris: loli: mostly
2018-01-07T05:12:37Z Bike: the implementation putting something on top of basic lists in lisp is unlikely, because it does have to be possible to access them as a bunch of conses
2018-01-07T05:12:50Z jasom: pransninja: fair enough, I think that was a 200 level class
2018-01-07T05:13:43Z jasom is old so college just feels like all the same year now
2018-01-07T05:13:57Z aeth: There is one additional thing about vectors vs. lists. Lists contain elements of type T. Arrays can be specialized to contain elements of one type (usually numeric, with the exception of characters, and implementation-specific with the exception of bits and characters)
2018-01-07T05:14:10Z pransninja: jasom: ;) I think while vector is expected to be sequential, list can be other than linked list, in general cs sense.
2018-01-07T05:14:26Z loli: it's a shame I can't type the elements of my lists in CL
2018-01-07T05:14:32Z aeth: (a vector in CL is just a 1D array)
2018-01-07T05:14:46Z jasom: pransninja: right, which is why I specifically said "linked list"
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2018-01-07T05:14:58Z pransninja: righto
2018-01-07T05:15:07Z pransninja: So stick with vector unless you need list?
2018-01-07T05:15:13Z pransninja: or the other way around?
2018-01-07T05:15:23Z loli: use what is natural for the algorithm
2018-01-07T05:15:26Z pransninja: or if you need random access, vector, otherwise list?
2018-01-07T05:15:56Z jasom: pransninja: if you want to share structure, add to the beginning and don't need random access, list.  Otherwise vector
2018-01-07T05:15:58Z pransninja: loli: Some thumb rules help the mere mortal.
2018-01-07T05:16:16Z loli: I tend to use structs, and lists mostly as I adhere to the functional style
2018-01-07T05:16:20Z jasom: pransninja: also lisp has easy destructuring of lists builtin.  apply, destructurig-bind &c.
2018-01-07T05:16:31Z aeth: loli: You can type them, with structs! Just create a new cons element whose car contains something of a given type and whose cdr must be (or null your-new-cons-type). Unfortunately, I tested this in CCL, ECL, and SBCL, and this only works perfectly on SBCL. For the other two, one doesn't type check in the constructor and the other doesn't type check on access (I forget which)
2018-01-07T05:16:51Z loli: that's a shame
2018-01-07T05:16:55Z loli: I'll keep that in mind
2018-01-07T05:16:58Z aeth: If you do some implementation-specific workarounds for ECL and CCL, you can get it working everywhere.
2018-01-07T05:17:01Z loli: when I make adt's I really want to type my lists
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2018-01-07T05:17:11Z jasom: pransninja: one of the reason for using functional types in clojure was to allow what lisp traditionally does with lists to work on other datatypes
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2018-01-07T05:18:03Z pransninja: aeth: That is more or less how PHP implements it's infamous bucket of everything arrays.
2018-01-07T05:18:11Z pransninja: Though, in C, obviously.
2018-01-07T05:18:13Z jasom: loli: yeah, the lack of recursive algebraic types in lisp is a real limitation.  It's easy to see that this falls out of the fact that lisp is untyped; you can't efficiently check the type of (CONS X Y) for recursive types unless you already strongly know the value of Y, but as lisp is untyped you can't strongly know the type of Y
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2018-01-07T05:18:32Z loli: aeth: I might be able to try a work around some time for this, the only issue is that I don't get reduce or mapcar from it
2018-01-07T05:18:36Z loli: jasom: I found a nice work around
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2018-01-07T05:18:53Z loli: I use deftype, with many structs and an ending symbol
2018-01-07T05:19:00Z loli: I can write defmethods for all of them
2018-01-07T05:19:15Z aeth: (Btw, by everywhere I do mean everywhere, btw, not just ECL and CCL, since combined they fail in every possible way I can think of, so you'd just need to keep a list of where a given implementation fails.)
2018-01-07T05:19:59Z loli: yes and you can do #+ to fix it
2018-01-07T05:20:07Z loli: if you find a fix for every way it is borken
2018-01-07T05:20:09Z loli: broken*
2018-01-07T05:20:20Z jmercouris: jasom: they are indeed on the same thread
2018-01-07T05:20:40Z loli: jasom: I might make a macro that automatically generates an ADT. It wouldn't be hard
2018-01-07T05:20:46Z aeth: Right, so you make the constructor name %make-foo in implementations where the type-checking in the constructor is broken and for those implementations only define an inline make-foo that calls %make-foo after type checking.
2018-01-07T05:20:59Z loli: and have it's own special little defmethod
2018-01-07T05:21:03Z aeth: And you can do something similar for the accessors.
2018-01-07T05:21:25Z pransninja: How do you properly indent (map 'vector #'(lambda which I want to be multi line) *v*)
2018-01-07T05:21:33Z pransninja: Does the *v*) go in it's own line?
2018-01-07T05:21:48Z jasom: pransninja: yes
2018-01-07T05:21:50Z aeth: pransninja: each thing should go on its own line
2018-01-07T05:22:07Z loli: the statement is short enough that I put it on one line, if the lambda gets big 1 line for each argument
2018-01-07T05:22:12Z jasom: pransninja: anything that would be indented lower than the current line should get a newline
2018-01-07T05:22:15Z loli: I keep the first argument with the function name
2018-01-07T05:22:21Z pransninja: So a line for 'vector too?
2018-01-07T05:22:25Z jasom: pransninja: with the exception of ) of course
2018-01-07T05:22:25Z pransninja: and not have it next to map?
2018-01-07T05:22:32Z pransninja: jasom: of course. :0
2018-01-07T05:22:35Z pransninja: :)*
2018-01-07T05:22:35Z jasom: pransninja: that's more a style question
2018-01-07T05:22:43Z pransninja: righto.
2018-01-07T05:22:52Z pransninja: Is there a paste that you guys prefer?
2018-01-07T05:22:55Z jasom: pransninja: I've seen that both ways.
2018-01-07T05:23:04Z pransninja: online paste, that is.
2018-01-07T05:23:22Z jasom: pransninja: the former official paste got spammed to death, so whatever now.  gist will syntax highlight lisp, so it's what I use, but anything is fine
2018-01-07T05:23:42Z pransninja: jasom: I want to know what happened, haha.
2018-01-07T05:23:54Z fikka joined #lisp
2018-01-07T05:23:56Z aeth: pransninja: The capcha was weak, it was just a 4-5 digit number
2018-01-07T05:24:00Z pransninja: "Due to continued abuse, this service has been disabled" what is the story?
2018-01-07T05:24:07Z pransninja: oh
2018-01-07T05:24:11Z pransninja: that should be easy to fix?
2018-01-07T05:24:20Z jasom: pransninja: 1000s of spam pastes per day.  The maintainer no longer used it
2018-01-07T05:24:31Z Bike: if you have suggestions, you can give them in what was it, #common-lisp.net?
2018-01-07T05:24:33Z aeth: pransninja: There are *many* ways to fix it. The maintainer is just not interested in fixing it, I guess
2018-01-07T05:24:48Z pransninja: maybe I can do this as a pet project.
2018-01-07T05:24:55Z pransninja: will the let me use the subdomain?
2018-01-07T05:25:00Z jmercouris: pransninja: Let's not get ahead of ourselves here
2018-01-07T05:25:14Z pransninja: Who manages lisp.org?
2018-01-07T05:25:36Z aindilis joined #lisp
2018-01-07T05:25:56Z pransninja: I have some ideas, I could try compiling sbcl to asm.js and run it on the browser.
2018-01-07T05:26:01Z aeth: The home page has just been a tribute to McCarthy since 2011. https://lisp.org/
2018-01-07T05:26:06Z pransninja: Ka bom! magical lisp paste.
2018-01-07T05:26:30Z aeth: pransninja: asm.js is no longer recommended, web assembly is the new way forward
2018-01-07T05:26:40Z aeth: iirc, web assembly does not yet support GCed languages, but it's on the roadmap
2018-01-07T05:27:13Z aeth: Clasp (for LLVM), ECL (maybe?), and ABCL (there is a JVM->WASM effort) should be the easiest to port, not SBCL
2018-01-07T05:27:25Z pransninja: You know John MacCarthy's eyebrows reminds me of Oscar Wilde's "Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates Life".
2018-01-07T05:27:33Z pransninja: PS. I have very similar eyebrows, so I get to make a joke.
2018-01-07T05:27:50Z pransninja: aeth: I know llvm has been ported, so probably clasp is the way to go then.
2018-01-07T05:28:08Z aeth: My guess is that Clasp and ABCL should be the easiest, followed by ECL.
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2018-01-07T05:28:24Z pransninja: That is a solid guess, I think.
2018-01-07T05:28:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-07T05:28:32Z pransninja: pretty sure I saw an llvm port somewhere.
2018-01-07T05:28:47Z rme: I have every confidence that web assembly will end up being a mostly-unsuitable target for a Common Lisp compiler.
2018-01-07T05:28:47Z pransninja: Yup https://kripken.github.io/llvm.js/demo.html
2018-01-07T05:28:49Z pransninja: been done.
2018-01-07T05:29:25Z aeth: ABCL will be easier than Clasp, probably.
2018-01-07T05:29:28Z pransninja: rme: Why is that?
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2018-01-07T05:30:11Z rme: For the same reason llvm is a mostly-unsuitable target for it.
2018-01-07T05:30:34Z pransninja: Wait, if you can already run LLVM ASM on Browser (it is an llvm vm, I believe), then wouldn't Clasp be the easiest?
2018-01-07T05:30:35Z aeth: pransninja: CL needs things that C doesn't need, like an efficient way to handle multiple return values.
2018-01-07T05:30:57Z pransninja: aeth: So, does that means, Go would have trouble too?
2018-01-07T05:30:59Z rme: The people involved either don't know CL, or don't care, or both.
2018-01-07T05:31:10Z pransninja: well.
2018-01-07T05:31:21Z pransninja: I think a good solution should work with just about any language.
2018-01-07T05:31:24Z pransninja: kinda like JVM.
2018-01-07T05:31:33Z pransninja: Not that JVM is great, but you can compile just about any language to jvm.
2018-01-07T05:31:36Z aeth: rme: that's strange since wasm uses s-expressions and Scheme also has multiple return values
2018-01-07T05:31:45Z aeth: Are they clojurists or something?
2018-01-07T05:31:54Z Bike: disadvantage number one would be needing the clasp runtime, which is several hundred MB
2018-01-07T05:31:55Z rme: Even the JVM isn't a totally great target.  Clojure doesn't have tail-call elimination because of JVM limitations.
2018-01-07T05:31:58Z Bike: ecl is smaller, i guess
2018-01-07T05:32:27Z rme: aeth: I suppose they could have improved it since I last looked, but I'm not too hopeful.
2018-01-07T05:32:44Z jasom: pransninja: go is easier because the number of return values is known at the time of call
2018-01-07T05:32:57Z pransninja: talking of which
2018-01-07T05:33:01Z SuperJen joined #lisp
2018-01-07T05:33:09Z pransninja: how do you even do multiple returns in CL?
2018-01-07T05:33:10Z jasom: pransninja: e.g. you must do x,y = foo() you can't do x = foo() and implicitly discard the second value in go
2018-01-07T05:33:16Z jasom: clhs values
2018-01-07T05:33:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2018-01-07T05:33:18Z jasom: pransninja: ^^
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2018-01-07T05:33:34Z jasom: pransninja: floor/round/truncate all return multiple values
2018-01-07T05:33:46Z aeth: In addition, multiple values are pretty useful
2018-01-07T05:33:46Z pransninja: I see
2018-01-07T05:33:52Z rme: That makes imperative loops in Clojure look kind of strange (they have to use the recur form).  But Clojure people will just say that you are loser if you write an imperative loop, anyway. :-)
2018-01-07T05:33:53Z pransninja: they sure damn are
2018-01-07T05:34:00Z aeth: I use multiple values to write pure functions for mathematical vectors of sizes 3 and 4
2018-01-07T05:34:17Z aeth: Vectors would otherwise either have to cons or modify
2018-01-07T05:34:22Z loli: does clojure  have an imperative loop, their loop is really recursion
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2018-01-07T05:34:24Z jmercouris: jasom: is there no way around this problem?
2018-01-07T05:34:29Z jmercouris: jasom: I can't think of anything
2018-01-07T05:34:30Z loli: it shuns imperative solutions due to being functional
2018-01-07T05:35:09Z jasom: jmercouris: it's bad design to require an asynchronous call from the thread that is going to do what you want.  I can't think of away around, other than moving all of your code out of that thread
2018-01-07T05:35:16Z pransninja: loli: If they don't have tail call elimination, recursion for loop sounds like trouble.
2018-01-07T05:35:25Z pransninja: as rme said.
2018-01-07T05:35:32Z jmercouris: jasom: But it is not my design :(
2018-01-07T05:35:33Z loli: parjanya: they can simulate loops
2018-01-07T05:35:37Z jasom: jmercouris: I know
2018-01-07T05:35:50Z loli: for example Let over lambda puts TCO in CL through a macro with gotos
2018-01-07T05:36:12Z loli: it should be considered reucrsion, just the user doing the compilers job
2018-01-07T05:36:12Z jasom: they don't use recursion for loops in clojure their loop is not recursion
2018-01-07T05:36:29Z pransninja: Yeah, I hope so.
2018-01-07T05:36:30Z loli: it is not a form of recursion?
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2018-01-07T05:36:49Z jasom: loli: it sort of is, but it's an explicit loop construct
2018-01-07T05:36:49Z pransninja: Because without tail call elimination, how do you even loop with recursion?
2018-01-07T05:37:12Z loli: pransninja: you  bake it in with gotos, it's what compilers do for languages with TCO
2018-01-07T05:37:20Z loli: lambda the ultimate goto talks about that
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2018-01-07T05:37:34Z pransninja: loli: sauce?
2018-01-07T05:37:38Z jasom: (loop BINDINGS ... (recur new binding values))  <-- it looks like that
2018-01-07T05:38:00Z loli: yes it basically does a labels
2018-01-07T05:38:05Z loli: and you call it right away
2018-01-07T05:38:06Z jasom: that is *clearly* a looping construct
2018-01-07T05:38:12Z loli: pransninja: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html
2018-01-07T05:38:33Z pransninja: loli: Thanks!
2018-01-07T05:38:35Z loli: jasom: would you consider recursion a looping construct
2018-01-07T05:38:42Z loli: if so then you're correct
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2018-01-07T05:39:03Z jasom: loli: this is just GOTO + bindings, which is much more limited than recursion
2018-01-07T05:39:11Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-01-07T05:39:24Z jasom: loli: it is isomorphic only to self-recursive tail calls.  That's a loop.
2018-01-07T05:39:28Z loli: I see
2018-01-07T05:39:29Z loli: thank you
2018-01-07T05:39:41Z pransninja: i think if the stack grows, then it is not a loop. Isn't that the difference of loop and recursion?
2018-01-07T05:39:46Z jasom: pransninja: nope
2018-01-07T05:39:46Z loli: pransninja: https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda/blob/master/let-over-lambda.lisp#L313
2018-01-07T05:40:08Z loli: this is the let over lambda code for the Tail call in CL
2018-01-07T05:40:09Z jasom: pransninja: all tail-calls in scheme are guaranteed to not grow the stack
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2018-01-07T05:40:44Z jasom: pransninja: most compiled tail calls in most CL implementations with high optimization values will also not grow the stack.
2018-01-07T05:41:00Z jasom: pransninja: even GCC won't allocate a new stack frame for a tail call on high optimization levels
2018-01-07T05:41:03Z pransninja: So it becomes a loop? ;)
2018-01-07T05:41:16Z pransninja: I know that is binding the rules, but how do you define recursion vs iteration?
2018-01-07T05:41:21Z jasom: pransninja: it's arbitrary control transfer; it's only a loop if it's a recursive tail call
2018-01-07T05:41:25Z pransninja: at least, in general sense?
2018-01-07T05:41:32Z jasom: pransninja: recursive is self-referential
2018-01-07T05:41:52Z pransninja: Hmmm.
2018-01-07T05:42:13Z pransninja: loli: I will read through! and try to understand it.
2018-01-07T05:42:32Z jasom: pransninja: If the result of F is defined in terms of F (including using functions that might be defined in terms of F) then it is recursive
2018-01-07T05:43:01Z jasom: this is why I think clojure's loop is not recursive; there is no defined in terms of self, it's rather an explicit "do another iteration"
2018-01-07T05:43:23Z loli: jasom: would you consider fold a looping mechnism instead of recursion?
2018-01-07T05:43:36Z jasom: but it's a well known theorum that one can always transform a loop into a tail-recursive form
2018-01-07T05:43:54Z jasom: loli: inasmuch as HoF are either, map/fold &c. I would call looping
2018-01-07T05:43:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-01-07T05:44:03Z rme: I look at it as a question of notation.
2018-01-07T05:44:22Z rme: When the computational process runs in constant space, that's iterative.
2018-01-07T05:44:39Z jasom: loli: obviously they could be defined either way.
2018-01-07T05:44:54Z loli: yes I choose to view them as recursion due to no mutation
2018-01-07T05:45:00Z loli: that's where I tend to place the term looping
2018-01-07T05:45:12Z pjb: loli: if you have a defective keyboard, it's easy enough to get a good one and change it.
2018-01-07T05:45:30Z pjb: loli: so now you may be able to type your list elements.
2018-01-07T05:45:39Z loli: thank you pjb
2018-01-07T05:45:53Z loli: that would solve that problem
2018-01-07T05:45:53Z rme: Whether that process is notated using tagbody and go or as a tail-recursive function call makes no difference.
2018-01-07T05:45:58Z pjb: loli: I would advise a Das Keyboard, but there are cheaper options.
2018-01-07T05:46:22Z jasom: loli: (loop repeat 5 collect 'a) ; <-- no mutation there; is it recursive?
2018-01-07T05:46:46Z loli: does "loop" not mutate things as it does this computation?
2018-01-07T05:46:51Z loli: let me see the expansion
2018-01-07T05:46:54Z pjb: loli: unspecified.
2018-01-07T05:46:59Z jasom: loli: that's up to the implementation
2018-01-07T05:47:01Z loli: it can ve either then
2018-01-07T05:47:05Z loli: can be either*
2018-01-07T05:47:12Z pjb: You cannot rely on one expansion, another implementation may do it otherwise.
2018-01-07T05:47:27Z jasom: loli: let's look at the disassembly of a tail-call in haskell and see if it mutates registers :)
2018-01-07T05:47:36Z pjb: or the RAM!
2018-01-07T05:47:37Z loli: I'm sure it does
2018-01-07T05:47:38Z loli: haha
2018-01-07T05:47:43Z jasom: loli: therefor it's not recursive!
2018-01-07T05:47:49Z pjb: unless you have a lambda calculus processor.
2018-01-07T05:48:00Z loli: ahh but jasom, nothing is recursive
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2018-01-07T05:48:31Z loli: so just put a not infront of my statements
2018-01-07T05:48:33Z loli: and it's all fine
2018-01-07T05:48:49Z jasom: any definition that relies on what the implementation does is not useful for discussing recursion vs iteration.  A compiler is free to transform a tail-recursive function to a loop or not (in most languages) and that ought not change if it's considered recursive
2018-01-07T05:48:54Z loli: also jasom you forgot one thing, you don't tail call in Haskell
2018-01-07T05:48:59Z loli: you let laziness take you away
2018-01-07T05:49:04Z jmercouris: jasom: I do not think there is literally any way around this, and if there is, I cannot think of i
2018-01-07T05:49:07Z jmercouris: think of it*
2018-01-07T05:49:23Z jasom: jmercouris: what code will actually need the result?
2018-01-07T05:49:45Z jmercouris: jasom: Anythink can call web-view-execute to get the JS result
2018-01-07T05:49:59Z jmercouris: jasom: For example, in link-hints, it gets an array of links, and associated hints that it uses
2018-01-07T05:50:06Z jasom: jmercouris: hmmm
2018-01-07T05:50:17Z jasom: jmercouris: you may have to change web-view-execute to CPS style
2018-01-07T05:50:31Z pransninja: jasom: So that means that the discussion of stack in the context of recursion vs iteration is out of scope?
2018-01-07T05:50:38Z jmercouris: jasom: I might, but how will that work within the synchronous cocoa context?
2018-01-07T05:50:47Z jasom: pransninja: In my opinion, yes
2018-01-07T05:50:55Z jasom: jmercouris: just call the callback immediately
2018-01-07T05:51:22Z pransninja: jasom: Fair point, considering that most languages let the compiler do whatever it fancies.
2018-01-07T05:51:41Z jmercouris: jasom: Feels so wrong, there must be a way
2018-01-07T05:51:47Z jasom: pransninja: scheme and python are the two that immediately come to mind for having requirements
2018-01-07T05:52:07Z jasom: jmercouris: what happens if the javascript has a delay in it?  The whole thread hangs for that time?
2018-01-07T05:52:16Z jasom: jmercouris: surely cocoa has an asynchronous interface?
2018-01-07T05:52:24Z pransninja: jasom: for low level details of implementing recursion and iteration?
2018-01-07T05:52:28Z jmercouris: jasom: the newest one, but since ffigen is broken I am using a quite old api
2018-01-07T05:52:29Z jasom: pransninja: yes
2018-01-07T05:52:41Z rme: However, the whole point of fussing over "proper tail recursion" is that it is safe for space.
2018-01-07T05:52:46Z jasom: jmercouris: *sigh* the world is truely an imperfect place
2018-01-07T05:52:47Z pransninja: jasom: interesting.
2018-01-07T05:53:17Z jasom: pransninja: scheme requires all tail-calls to consume zero extra space.  Python reuires all calls to allocate a stack frame.
2018-01-07T05:53:22Z jmercouris: jasom: Seems like I will have to do CPS
2018-01-07T05:53:46Z pransninja: jasom: to what end goal? specially the Python's requirement?
2018-01-07T05:53:56Z jmercouris: I'll probably introduce some macro like (with-java-script-result (script) (...forms))
2018-01-07T05:53:58Z jasom: pransninja: the BDFL thinks it hinders debuggability
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2018-01-07T05:54:38Z pransninja: jasom: How is it different than debugging a simple goto loop?
2018-01-07T05:54:54Z loli: taking away stack frames is something he doesn't want to do
2018-01-07T05:54:58Z pransninja: Or is that where the BDFL aspect comes into question ;)
2018-01-07T05:55:17Z jasom: pransninja: that's where the BDFL aspect comes in, though you can find his reasonings on the mailing list I'm sure
2018-01-07T05:55:54Z pransninja: I like the discussions of language design very interesting.
2018-01-07T05:56:16Z pransninja: It is interesting because there is so much opinions in what ought to be mostly objective.
2018-01-07T05:56:22Z rme: I've worked with a client who wanted ccl never to do tail calls for debugging reasons.
2018-01-07T05:56:33Z loli: rme: but what about debug 3?
2018-01-07T05:56:36Z pransninja: But then again, it is design, and that says a lot about the opinions aspect.
2018-01-07T05:56:46Z loli: doesn't that just remove TCO?
2018-01-07T05:56:53Z rme: They wanted it as standard optimize settings.
2018-01-07T05:57:11Z jasom thought ccl had lots of optimization tunables
2018-01-07T05:57:19Z jasom: or am I thinking of sbcl?
2018-01-07T05:57:21Z loli: huh, that's rather strange
2018-01-07T05:57:30Z Bike: "I want to tune how things are optimized, but without actually touching the dials"?
2018-01-07T05:57:39Z fortitude__ is now known as fortitude_
2018-01-07T05:57:41Z rme: There's a thing called a compiler policy in ccl that lets you tweak stuff like that on a more fine-grained basis.
2018-01-07T05:58:40Z rme: Clients.  Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
2018-01-07T05:59:11Z pransninja: Is SBCL hastables O(1)?
2018-01-07T05:59:14Z loli: huh, did that effect your solutions much
2018-01-07T05:59:17Z loli: yes pransninja
2018-01-07T05:59:18Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2018-01-07T05:59:26Z loli: I assume you mean for lookup
2018-01-07T05:59:31Z pransninja: So a real hash table. :)
2018-01-07T05:59:31Z pransninja: Yes.
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2018-01-07T06:04:46Z rme: For small amounts of data, though, searching an alist or a plist might be faster than a hash table lookup.
2018-01-07T06:05:34Z rme: It's interesting how CL exposes these performance trade-offs.
2018-01-07T06:05:36Z pransninja: Is the only way to call '(format t "much wow") is to eval it?
2018-01-07T06:06:31Z Bike: you mean like you have a function that receives that list?
2018-01-07T06:06:37Z nika quit
2018-01-07T06:07:00Z pransninja: rme: I will read about them, currently playing around with hashmaps, and true to most other things, I like how it gives you perf trade-offs with different :test funcs.
2018-01-07T06:07:27Z pransninja: Bike: As in, I save that on a variable and later execute it.
2018-01-07T06:07:53Z Bike: that's what eval does, sure. but whether you HAVE to use eval depends on what other forms you want to allow
2018-01-07T06:08:05Z pransninja: say I have (defvar wow '(format t "wow"))
2018-01-07T06:08:07Z loli: for example you can stick it in a macro
2018-01-07T06:08:16Z loli: and no funcall would be needed
2018-01-07T06:08:17Z pransninja: and now the time has come to say print wow.
2018-01-07T06:08:31Z Bike: what i'm saying is, if you have (defvar wow '(let ((x "wow")) (format t x))), does that have to work as well?
2018-01-07T06:08:49Z loli: (macrolet ((te () '(format t "wow"))) (te))
2018-01-07T06:09:00Z pransninja: Yes, so not really looking for macros.
2018-01-07T06:09:21Z Bike: so, yes, if you want to evaluate an arbitrary expression you have to evaluate it, basically.
2018-01-07T06:09:29Z pransninja: I am looking into the eval business right now
2018-01-07T06:09:31Z Bike: though i'd caution against designing your system in this way.
2018-01-07T06:09:38Z pransninja: so want to see how else you can execute what eval does.
2018-01-07T06:09:58Z loli: eval should be used very sparingly
2018-01-07T06:09:59Z pransninja: Just a learning exercise in eval, not being evil with my code, just yet anyways ;)
2018-01-07T06:10:19Z Bike: (eval x) is mostly equivalent to (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () ,x))), for one
2018-01-07T06:10:59Z pransninja: Ah.
2018-01-07T06:11:00Z Bike: you could also write your own eval in terms of apply and such.
2018-01-07T06:11:02Z pransninja: that is cool.
2018-01-07T06:11:15Z pransninja: So the lisp runtime comes with a lisp compiler?
2018-01-07T06:11:32Z Bike: yes (some commercial implementations allow or require the compiler to be removed in deployed applications)
2018-01-07T06:11:36Z jcowan: Haskell and Scala both allow * (or any symbol or punc mark) in the name of an operator
2018-01-07T06:11:56Z pransninja: jcowan: Too late to the party, I am afraid. ;P
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2018-01-07T06:31:59Z aeth: Any language that separates things with whitespace should permit just about anything
2018-01-07T06:32:36Z aeth: You don't need s-expressions to write foo-bar, you just need to require "4 - 5" instead of "4-5"
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2018-01-07T06:47:05Z jasom: did pransninja leave?  I was going to suggest a lambda in teh defvar; that's the obvious solution
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2018-01-07T06:50:45Z krwq: hello, is there an easy way to write defmethod which would do something like (defmethod foo ((arg (eql (or :a :b)))) ...)?
2018-01-07T06:53:07Z jasom: krwq: pretty sure there isn't
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2018-01-07T06:55:13Z krwq: jasom: thanks, I saw https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-dbi/blob/master/src/driver.lisp#L35 but I'd like to not couple defgeneric and defmethod code together
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2018-01-07T07:02:33Z beach: krwq: Just create an auxiliary function with the body, and call it from two methods.
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2018-01-07T07:11:15Z krwq: beach: that's what I did but was wondering if there was some syntax for that already
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2018-01-07T08:10:37Z phoe: krwq: not in vanilla CLOS.
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2018-01-07T08:11:28Z phoe: AFAIK (or :a :b) up there will evaluate to :a since it's a normal Lisp form.
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2018-01-07T12:23:45Z dim: Happy New Year lispers!
2018-01-07T12:25:05Z Shinmera: Wish I could say it was
2018-01-07T12:26:57Z easye: Shinmera: is at any more unhappier than 2017 was?
2018-01-07T12:27:23Z Shinmera: Kinda early to say that, don't you think?
2018-01-07T12:27:50Z easye: Well, human history is pretty miserable in the first place.  So, I have low expectations...
2018-01-07T12:28:25Z easye: There's ELS 2018 to look forward to.
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2018-01-07T12:34:09Z kolb: Human history is the main reason why pessimism is foolish
2018-01-07T12:34:49Z kolb: You want to contract sickness 100 years ago?
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2018-01-07T12:35:22Z kolb: Happy new year:-)
2018-01-07T12:38:18Z easye: kolb: Same to you!
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2018-01-07T12:44:04Z kolb: My predictions for ELS 2018: lots of missed talks but many cool drinks at the beach
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2018-01-07T12:48:56Z easye is looking forward to chats.  Especially to share experiences with using CL to make tooling to deal with the mess that is known as "crypto-currencies".
2018-01-07T12:50:43Z jackdaniel is looking forward to make a photo on a beach with beach` sharing a jackdaniel's drink :p
2018-01-07T12:52:11Z phoe: sipping jackdaniel while laying on a beach?
2018-01-07T12:52:24Z kolb: LOL
2018-01-07T12:52:26Z phoe: this sounds horribly wrong and horribly lispy at the same time
2018-01-07T12:52:38Z phoe: ELS'18 is indeed going to be fun
2018-01-07T12:52:39Z kolb: I have to be there
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2018-01-07T12:55:26Z kolb: Which poor soul has to deal with crypto currencies? (I really only know from bitcoin in meatspace by friends... procuring things.)
2018-01-07T12:56:31Z kolb: I figured it was mostly a hype for gamblers other than that
2018-01-07T13:01:12Z easye is dealing with crypto-currencies.
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2018-01-07T13:03:08Z kolb: easye: with ABCL? at the edge of invention I see :-)
2018-01-07T13:03:13Z easye: I really don't know the endgame, but what happening with Bitcoin, Ethereum, Sia, and others makes this period of experimentation with store of value and smart contracts mediated by decentralized trust systems as important as the 1993-1995 (NSF commercializing the "internet"
2018-01-07T13:04:29Z easye: Usually these days I develop with CCL.  I use ABCL wihen I need to bridge to Java ecosystem, which is mainly to get access to OWL2-capable reasoners and cheap SPARQL endpoints.
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2018-01-07T13:07:00Z kolb: gogo CCL :-)
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2018-01-07T13:07:34Z kolb: easye: I heard that bitcoin mining draws more power than some nation states nowadays, how do you feel about that?
2018-01-07T13:07:45Z easye: Warmer?
2018-01-07T13:07:50Z kolb: :-)
2018-01-07T13:07:57Z easye cries for the loss of entropy.
2018-01-07T13:09:11Z easye: But since we  are barely a type I Kardashev, there is a lot of other waste I would think we should get mad at.  Not much we can do until we build a partial Dyson mesh.
2018-01-07T13:10:26Z easye: s/loss/increase of/
2018-01-07T13:10:57Z kolb: while this IMHO goes astray at the end, I found this talk (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2018/01/dude-you-broke-the-future.html) somewhat stimulating, it portrays corporations as the actual AI of our generation, and smart contracts as the questionable continuation of that
2018-01-07T13:11:04Z kolb: paper-clip maximizers and such
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2018-01-07T13:13:04Z kolb: what’s a dyson mesh?
2018-01-07T13:13:42Z easye: The precursor to a sphere.  A bunch of solar arrays, the scaffolding for a sphere.  (I just made this up).
2018-01-07T13:14:45Z kolb: ah yeah just found the article for dyson sphere. so may I ask what it is you are doing in particular with cryptographic currencies?
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2018-01-07T13:16:24Z easye: Right now I am preparing to issue and disburse ERC-20 tokens for <https://etch.work> while modeling how to securitize payrolls streams via smart contracts.
2018-01-07T13:17:28Z kolb: sci-fi dystopia writes itself :D
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2018-01-07T13:19:24Z easye: kolb:  thanks for the Stross link to the talk at 34C3.
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2018-01-07T13:25:55Z kolb: so a dyson sphere/mesh would darken the sun and we’d heat and vitamin d-bask artificially?^^
2018-01-07T13:26:02Z kolb: vampires will be happy
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2018-01-07T13:26:35Z easye: Naw, we'd put the Dyson sphere at least around Saturn.
2018-01-07T13:26:47Z easye: I like the sun.
2018-01-07T13:28:20Z easye: Anyways, this ain't very CL related, so I will share the hope that CL will still be running in some form when we start building such structures as a species.  Of course, I hope we have standardized a few things since 1993...
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2018-01-07T13:28:46Z easye: But now is the time to experiment with what will be standard in 10, 100 years.
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2018-01-07T13:37:54Z pjb: kolb: one can live a long time on grilled sardines, so you could just throw away your return ticket and stay on Marbella's beaches for ever.
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2018-01-07T13:39:06Z pjb: kolb: vitamine D wouldn't be an issue anymore once you live on a dyson sphere.
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2018-01-07T13:39:47Z easye envisions a technomadic Lisp beach-bum fellowship.
2018-01-07T13:40:35Z kolb: count me out I like my hills and meadows
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2018-01-07T13:41:56Z easye: I would keep the Earth as it is, as well as all the terrestial bodies.  If we build a mesh that we can "shutter" dynamically, we can keep the Sun shining on the Earth.  Isn't the point of the Dyson sphere to harvest the energy of that huge local fusion reactor?
2018-01-07T13:42:16Z pjb: solar panels on laptop.  wifi on the beach.
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2018-01-07T13:43:10Z pjb: http://www.marbellafamilyfun.com/free-wifi-marbella.html
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2018-01-07T13:46:44Z easye: While I guess there are those who envision the inside of a Dyson sphere at 1 AU as a huge "inverted Earth", I think that would be way too many people to be around.  Personally, I'd rather make a Ringworld at, say, 1.3 AU.
2018-01-07T13:47:20Z borodust: is there autoresponse bot around?
2018-01-07T13:47:28Z easye: minion: help
2018-01-07T13:47:28Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2018-01-07T13:48:00Z borodust: or notify-when-online bot :)
2018-01-07T13:48:05Z Shinmera: Colleen: help notify
2018-01-07T13:48:05Z Colleen: Command Syntax: notify TARGET &STRING MESSAGE
2018-01-07T13:48:05Z Colleen: Documentation:  Send a notification message that will be displayed as soon as the user speaks again.
2018-01-07T13:49:07Z Shinmera: Colleen: notify Shinmera quit wastin' your Sunday!
2018-01-07T13:49:07Z Colleen: Are you feeling lonely?
2018-01-07T13:49:09Z Shinmera: Yes
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2018-01-07T13:50:07Z borodust: Shinmera: thanks!
2018-01-07T13:50:34Z kolb: Shinmera: its called serenity ;-)
2018-01-07T13:51:43Z borodust: Colleen: notify craft00 run "rm -rf ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/static-vectors-v1.8.*" and try loading trivial-gamekit again
2018-01-07T13:51:43Z Colleen: borodust: Got it. I'll let craft00 know as soon as possible.
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2018-01-07T13:55:07Z phoe: does CASE use EQ or EQL as a test?
2018-01-07T13:55:13Z phoe: CLHS only says "based on its identity".
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2018-01-07T13:55:41Z borodust: Colleen: notify craft00 and just in case do (ql:update-all-dists) before loading trivial-gamekit
2018-01-07T13:55:41Z Colleen: borodust: Got it. I'll let craft00 know as soon as possible.
2018-01-07T13:55:48Z Shinmera: phoe: EQL
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2018-01-07T13:56:08Z Shinmera: Unless otherwise specified the test is always EQL
2018-01-07T13:56:26Z phoe: Shinmera: can you find me a part of the standard that says it's always EQL?
2018-01-07T13:56:37Z Shinmera: It was linked here just a day or two ago
2018-01-07T13:56:43Z Shinmera: Too lazy to look it up right now
2018-01-07T13:56:49Z phoe: Okay, I'll look for it...
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2018-01-07T14:00:11Z phoe: clhs glossary/same
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2018-01-07T14:00:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#same
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2018-01-07T14:01:30Z phoe: Shinmera: found it, "Since eq is used only rarely in this specification, eql is the default predicate when none is mentioned explicitly."
2018-01-07T14:01:33Z phoe: Thanks.
2018-01-07T14:01:57Z phoe: ...but
2018-01-07T14:02:01Z phoe: clhs case
2018-01-07T14:02:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
2018-01-07T14:02:04Z phoe: " These macros allow the conditional execution of a body of forms in a clause that is selected by matching the test-key on the basis of its identity."
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2018-01-07T14:02:12Z phoe: "...of its identity." - this implies EQ.
2018-01-07T14:02:20Z phoe: And henceforth might be a bug in the specification.
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2018-01-07T14:03:28Z Shinmera: "identity" is not specified. "identical" is, but it doesn't use that word.
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2018-01-07T14:03:54Z mfiano: I think the fact that it also says unless a specific test is written, it is assumed to be EQL, so it covers its mistake :)
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2018-01-07T14:13:10Z phoe: oh well, https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues/35
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2018-01-07T17:42:29Z peterpp: how can I check in a function definition if what the user passed is a place?
2018-01-07T17:43:04Z Shinmera: Functions don't deal with places.
2018-01-07T17:43:18Z peterpp: oh they don't?
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2018-01-07T17:44:06Z peterpp: I guess I have some misconceptions here
2018-01-07T17:44:20Z Shinmera: A form is a place if: it returns a value when evaluated, and it can be used as a SETF place expression.
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2018-01-07T17:44:49Z Shinmera: A "place" is thus a question of SETF machinery.
2018-01-07T17:45:58Z Shinmera: When a function receives an expression it cannot use it as a place, because the expression needs to be available at compile time for SETF to be able to interpret it as one.
2018-01-07T17:47:17Z Shinmera: peterpp: What exactly are you trying to do?
2018-01-07T17:47:42Z peterpp: I'm just going through 'ansi common lisp'
2018-01-07T17:47:56Z peterpp: and it was a question that popped up in my mind while doing the exercises
2018-01-07T17:48:30Z peterpp: thanks for enlightening me
2018-01-07T17:50:01Z Shinmera: What you can do is use get-setf-expansion to get what SETF would use in its expansion
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2018-01-07T17:50:58Z Shinmera: Note however that what you get there will not tell you whether the expression is necessarily usable as a place, as there's a default expansion that is returned for expressions not handled through define-setf-expansion
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2018-01-07T17:52:27Z Shinmera: Either way, the point is that a "place" is more a concept than a tangible, concrete thing.
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2018-01-07T17:58:50Z phoe: in other words, CL doesn not have first-class places.
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2018-01-07T18:00:00Z Shinmera: It gets a bit washy because with some trickery (possibly implementation-dependent) you can determine whether an expression is usable as a setf place.
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2018-01-07T18:17:33Z pjb: peterpp: a function can take as argument a closure that accesses the place.
2018-01-07T18:18:53Z pjb: peterpp: see http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2018-01-07T18:19:09Z pjb: peterpp: but it's better to use a more functional style.
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2018-01-07T18:23:59Z phoe: pjb: things like (lambda (x) (setf (someplace) x))?
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2018-01-07T18:28:12Z pjb: phoe: yes.
2018-01-07T18:28:47Z pjb: wrapped in nice macros.
2018-01-07T18:30:47Z logicmoo: the ever sought locative
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2018-01-07T18:34:38Z phoe: I first read "the ever sought laxative"
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2018-01-07T18:45:33Z jcowan: Yes, places are one of the fairly small number of things in CL that are second-class (other things being macros, tagbody tags, and a few others)
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2018-01-07T18:46:20Z Shinmera: types
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2018-01-07T18:48:58Z phoe: Shinmera: types are first class in Lisp
2018-01-07T18:49:05Z phoe: which surprisingly doesn't prevent from being second class at the same time
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2018-01-07T18:50:05Z pjb: jcowan: macros are first class: (funcall (macro-function 'cond) '(cond (x nil) (t t)) nil) #| --> (if x (progn nil) (cond (t t))) |#
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2018-01-07T18:50:22Z phoe: ^
2018-01-07T18:51:06Z phoe: also what do you mean by tagbody tags not being first class?
2018-01-07T18:51:09Z Shinmera: phoe: They're not first class in the sense that they don't have a distinct type of their own.
2018-01-07T18:51:17Z phoe: ooooh, right.
2018-01-07T18:51:23Z jcowan: pjb: I would rather say that it is possible to coerce a macro to a first-class type
2018-01-07T18:51:28Z pjb: this is not required for first classness.
2018-01-07T18:51:39Z phoe: macros don't have this either now that I think of it.
2018-01-07T18:52:14Z phoe: jcowan: what first-class operations do macros *not* support?
2018-01-07T18:52:35Z pjb: As soon as something can be bound to a variable, basically, it's first class.
2018-01-07T18:52:59Z pjb: (tagbody (let ((tag 'end)) (go tag)) end) proves that tags are not first class.
2018-01-07T18:53:26Z pjb: (let ((k  (macro-function 'cond))) (funcall k '(cond (x nil) (t t)) nil)) #| --> (if x (progn nil) (cond (t t))) |#  proves that macros are first class.
2018-01-07T18:54:13Z pjb: (let ((vs (values 1 2 3))) vs) #| --> 1 |#  proves that multiple values are not first class.
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2018-01-07T18:55:03Z pjb: (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (let ((p (second l))) (setf p 42))  l) #| --> (1 2 3) |#  proves that places are not first class.
2018-01-07T18:55:03Z jcowan: I would add that a first-class value has to be containable in a (suitably typed) data structure, passable as an argument, and returnable as a function value
2018-01-07T18:55:26Z pjb: jcowan: in lisp, anything that can be bound to a variable has those properties.
2018-01-07T18:55:31Z pjb: The suitable type being T
2018-01-07T18:55:34Z jcowan: Algol 60 had arrays of tags, but no tag-valued functions
2018-01-07T18:55:49Z jcowan: I am speaking more generally
2018-01-07T18:56:06Z phoe: you can contain macro functions in any data structure you want, you can pass it as an argument and return it as a function value
2018-01-07T18:56:13Z pjb: Granted you can refine the definition for more generality.  Nonetheless, macros are first class.
2018-01-07T18:56:18Z phoe: s/macro //
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2018-01-07T18:56:27Z phoe: you can do it for all sorts of functions. macro functions are no exception.
2018-01-07T18:57:07Z jcowan: Of course macro functions are first class, the question is whether that makes macros first class.
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2018-01-07T18:57:53Z phoe: what is a macro?
2018-01-07T18:58:02Z phoe: clhs glossary/macro
2018-01-07T18:58:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_m.htm#macro
2018-01-07T18:58:35Z jcowan: Point.
2018-01-07T18:58:37Z phoe: 1) is a form and therefore an atom or a list, both are first class. 2) is a function, which is first class. 3) is a symbol, which is first [1;5Dclass.
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2018-01-07T18:58:52Z phoe: 3) can also be (setf something) methinks.
2018-01-07T18:58:56Z phoe: ...actually wait a second
2018-01-07T18:59:15Z phoe: no, it can't.
2018-01-07T18:59:22Z phoe: therefore a symbol, even simpler.
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2018-01-07T19:00:04Z phoe: "what is a macro? a miserable little pile of Lisp forms"
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2018-01-07T19:00:42Z logicmoo: well functions (including i suppose macro functions) are missing a couple nice things that would make them more first class.. being able to compare them with each other and analyse them outside of executing them
2018-01-07T19:01:14Z pjb: Remember, in lisp, everything (that exists) is of type T.
2018-01-07T19:01:33Z logicmoo: for example they might always present a lambda-list
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2018-01-07T19:02:30Z logicmoo: instead they are often opache pointers that dont throw an error if you use them as a first argement to funcall
2018-01-07T19:03:39Z phoe: logicmoo: that's beyond the standard, but implementations often provide the mechanism to retrieve a lambda list from a function object
2018-01-07T19:03:42Z phoe: swank uses this a real lot
2018-01-07T19:03:53Z phoe: comparing them with each other is doable, they're EQ to each other
2018-01-07T19:04:07Z phoe: I mean, a function is EQ to itself
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2018-01-07T19:04:09Z phoe: and itself only
2018-01-07T19:04:53Z phoe: as for comparing functions, it's undecidable in general if two functions return the same results for all inputs
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2018-01-07T19:05:28Z phoe: as for analyzing them outside of executing them, what do you mean?
2018-01-07T19:05:33Z phoe: you can always #'DISASSEMBLE if that's what you mean
2018-01-07T19:05:56Z logicmoo: always?
2018-01-07T19:06:06Z phoe: functions? yes
2018-01-07T19:06:09Z phoe: clhs disassemble
2018-01-07T19:06:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2018-01-07T19:06:25Z phoe: the implementation is permitted to return anything as a result of DISASSEMBLE
2018-01-07T19:06:28Z phoe: but usually it's useful stuff.
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2018-01-07T19:07:51Z pjb: First-classness doesn't imply random operations.  There may be rules on how to use those values.  A lambda-list is a sexp with a specified format.  You can bind them to variables, pass them as function arguments, obtain them as function result (since they're mere lists), and you can use them in a lambda expression passed to COMPILE, EVAL or COERCE.  There's no need to have a function to go from FUNCTION to lambda-lists.
2018-01-07T19:08:22Z logicmoo: i suppose most lisps are much better at return a result to dissassemble than with lambda list
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2018-01-07T19:08:33Z phoe: logicmoo: nah
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2018-01-07T19:08:55Z phoe: #'DISASSEMBLE is a part of the standard, so it's somewhat implied that the implementation should implement it
2018-01-07T19:09:00Z phoe: (somehow)
2018-01-07T19:09:27Z phoe: and for returning lambda lists, implementations return these anyway,
2018-01-07T19:09:33Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments
2018-01-07T19:09:59Z phoe: this falls back to SWANK which implements it somewhat portably across implementations.
2018-01-07T19:10:07Z logicmoo: ah nice this is the closer-mop as to clos is but for function arglists?
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2018-01-07T19:10:52Z logicmoo: (works arround the various impls who dont equally implement things)
2018-01-07T19:11:52Z phoe: all portability libraries are like this.
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2018-01-07T19:12:31Z phoe: trivial-arguments is for lambda lists, trivial-garbage is for finalizers/garbage collection/weak hash tables, bordeaux-threads is for threads, usocket is for TCP/UDP networking, ...
2018-01-07T19:12:58Z phoe: ..., ASDF is for system definition.
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2018-01-07T19:13:47Z logicmoo: no trivial-dissasembly ?
2018-01-07T19:14:09Z phoe: uh
2018-01-07T19:14:09Z logicmoo joking
2018-01-07T19:14:10Z phoe: why?
2018-01-07T19:14:13Z phoe: ...xD
2018-01-07T19:14:24Z phoe: (incf logicmoo)
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2018-01-07T19:17:09Z KZiemian: hey
2018-01-07T19:17:39Z KZiemian: I need to know standards of documention CL code and making doctstring
2018-01-07T19:17:59Z KZiemian: is Google Style Guide authoritative or should I look to other sources?
2018-01-07T19:18:05Z KZiemian: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
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2018-01-07T19:20:20Z logicmoo: practically if there is a way to squeeze out FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSIONs from function then ok they feel first class to me
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2018-01-07T19:22:28Z logicmoo: (irregardless of having differnt code per impl.. (that would only be whining))
2018-01-07T19:22:57Z KZiemian: phoe: hey
2018-01-07T19:23:02Z KZiemian: phoe: are you here?
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2018-01-07T19:23:59Z phoe: KZiemian: sup
2018-01-07T19:24:09Z phoe: let's talk on Discord
2018-01-07T19:24:10Z sigjuice: KZiemian google can't tell you or me what to do :)
2018-01-07T19:24:26Z KZiemian: phoe: ok
2018-01-07T19:24:42Z KZiemian: sigjuice: but communiut can and I don't want to mess it up
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2018-01-07T19:25:09Z phoe: logicmoo: you still can't transmit compiled functions from one Lisp implementation to the other
2018-01-07T19:25:24Z KZiemian: sigjuice: in "Succesful Lisp" is nice line
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2018-01-07T19:25:33Z phoe: if there is a way to squeeze out FUNCTION-DUMP and FUNCTION-UNDUMP from function then they ok they feel first class to me.
2018-01-07T19:26:04Z KZiemian: sigjuice: rule of thumb stay, that if you write code like these you should be shoot
2018-01-07T19:27:13Z sigjuice: KZiemian are you saying I will get shot if I don't obey google?
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2018-01-07T19:31:29Z KZiemian: sigjuice: not Google
2018-01-07T19:31:59Z KZiemian: sigjuice: rather "obvious things" are dengerous to both of us
2018-01-07T19:32:11Z pjb: logicmoo: the definition of first-class doesn't involve function-lambda-expression.
2018-01-07T19:32:27Z pjb: This is why this function can return nil.
2018-01-07T19:33:36Z logicmoo: pjb: thus my gripe, perhaps there could be a use for trival-lambda-expressions
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2018-01-07T19:33:51Z logicmoo: trivial*
2018-01-07T19:34:43Z logicmoo: "Help! I am using trivial lambda expressions"
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2018-01-07T19:38:38Z pjb: logicmoo: there should be no need, because if it is possible at all to obtain it, then function-lambda-expression should return it.  Otherwise you can deem it a defect in your implementation and complain with the vendor.
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2018-01-07T19:39:19Z pjb: Perhaps you mean trivial-lambda-list ?
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2018-01-07T19:44:40Z logicmoo: i think trivial-arguments would be trivial-lambda-lists so i guess that is covered
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2018-01-07T20:12:29Z peterpp: is anyone here using manardb or something similar in production?
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2018-01-07T21:36:31Z Shinmera: phoe: Trivial-arguments does not use swank.
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2018-01-07T22:49:43Z phoe: Shinmera: wait, it doesn't fall back to swank in case nothing works?
2018-01-07T22:56:19Z Shinmera: It doesn't because there's no point.
2018-01-07T22:56:25Z Shinmera: It includes all the implementation swank supports
2018-01-07T22:57:47Z phoe: TIL. Thanks.
2018-01-07T22:58:13Z Shinmera: It used to fall back on swank but I removed that as it introduced the optional dependency mess into the FASL
2018-01-07T22:59:47Z Shinmera: And as mentioned there's no point
2018-01-07T23:00:08Z Shinmera: If new implementations spring out of the ether they'll have a plethora of other wrapper libraries to update already anyway
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2018-01-07T23:06:45Z Shinmera: On that note I'd be happy if someone could add the few missing implementations to Dissect
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2018-01-07T23:07:45Z Shinmera: (adding locals and in-frame evaluation to it would also be nice)
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2018-01-08T04:16:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-08T04:16:27Z bms_: Hello!
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2018-01-08T04:35:26Z jmercouris: I've written the following macro: https://gist.github.com/c03beb8186575f488f35e2cf8c2bac61
2018-01-08T04:35:48Z jmercouris: What I would like to do is process the symbol result in the lambda list, but I'm not sure how to do that
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2018-01-08T04:36:03Z jmercouris: The only thing that comes to mind is nesting another lambda
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2018-01-08T04:36:50Z Bike: how do you want to "process"? what is "the symbol result"?
2018-01-08T04:37:10Z jmercouris: the symbol result is ",symbol" this is the third argument to interface:web-view-execute
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2018-01-08T04:37:28Z jmercouris: interface:web-view-execute will funcall the lambda defined in the macro
2018-01-08T04:37:48Z jmercouris: I want to decode the json result before passing it directly
2018-01-08T04:38:09Z jmercouris: sorry, that was a really bad explanation, let me rephrase it
2018-01-08T04:38:36Z jmercouris: I have a macro called with-parenscript which will execute some parenscript in a webview and return the result in a lambda
2018-01-08T04:38:39Z jmercouris: this is the macro I posted
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2018-01-08T04:39:16Z jmercouris: What I would like to do is somehow execute cl-json:decode-json-from-string upon that result before it is passed to the macro
2018-01-08T04:39:32Z jmercouris: s/macro/lamdba
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2018-01-08T04:39:54Z jmercouris: does that still not make sense? I am pretty tired
2018-01-08T04:40:28Z Bike: how about you have that same expansion, except (lambda ([gensym]) (let ((,symbol (decode-json-from-string [gensym]))) ,@body))?
2018-01-08T04:40:48Z jmercouris: what does [gensym] do?
2018-01-08T04:40:53Z jmercouris: I've never seen square brackets in code
2018-01-08T04:41:06Z mfiano: generates a unique symbol such that the it doesn't conflict with the user's body code
2018-01-08T04:41:44Z jmercouris: Bike: Yes, that makes sense, thank you
2018-01-08T04:41:59Z Bike: it's nto actual syntax
2018-01-08T04:42:01Z mfiano: He was denoting that you should use a gensym'd symbol instead of a literal symbol
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2018-01-08T04:42:11Z jmercouris: Ah damnit
2018-01-08T04:42:14Z Bike: i mean to do (let ((something (gensym))) `(lambda (,something) ...))
2018-01-08T04:42:14Z jmercouris: I thought it could just make one
2018-01-08T04:43:11Z jmercouris: But what should I make the symbol?
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2018-01-08T04:43:17Z jmercouris: The user might accidentally use it
2018-01-08T04:43:22Z Bike: what?
2018-01-08T04:43:28Z mfiano: umm
2018-01-08T04:43:29Z jmercouris: the one generated
2018-01-08T04:43:31Z Bike: use the gensym function, it makes a new symbol
2018-01-08T04:43:37Z Bike: the user can't access it unless you let them
2018-01-08T04:43:41Z jmercouris: Okay I see
2018-01-08T04:43:47Z jmercouris: How is that possible?
2018-01-08T04:44:01Z jmercouris: You've written (lambda (gensym)) wouldn't the symbol be accessible within the lambda body?
2018-01-08T04:44:05Z beach: What would you do in order to access it?
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2018-01-08T04:44:18Z jmercouris: Just on accident, not on purpose
2018-01-08T04:44:25Z beach: But how?
2018-01-08T04:44:28Z beach: What would you type?
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2018-01-08T04:44:52Z jmercouris: Ah, ok I didn't understand gensym
2018-01-08T04:45:02Z jmercouris: so if I don't pass any args it will make some random symbol for me it seems
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2018-01-08T04:45:04Z beach: I suggest you go read On Lisp.
2018-01-08T04:45:50Z beach: It is all about macro programming, and it explains why the use of GENSYM is essential to avoid unintentional capture.
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2018-01-08T04:46:15Z jmercouris: just downloaded it
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2018-01-08T04:46:29Z jmercouris: I'll try to get to it, I've already got quite a list :D
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2018-01-08T04:46:36Z jmercouris: or a queue rather
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2018-01-08T04:48:14Z beach: I understand.  But if you are going to write macros as part of your code, it is essential that you get them right.
2018-01-08T04:48:27Z jmercouris: Yeah, mine are an absolute mess right now
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2018-01-08T04:48:59Z jmercouris: earlier bike had given me a good explanation, but I still don't know all the functions/tips and tricks available
2018-01-08T04:49:18Z jmercouris: so I understand the defmacro form a lot more than I used to, but for example, I didn't know about the existence of gensym
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2018-01-08T06:01:07Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-01-08T06:24:01Z logicmoo: a macro-function always has the signature as  (&whole w env)  ?
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2018-01-08T06:26:45Z logicmoo: oh i see its just   (waswhole env)
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2018-01-08T06:43:29Z beach: Yes, a macro function takes the entire form and an environment object as arguments.
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2018-01-08T08:31:04Z Shinmera: PCL also discusses gensyms and things like that.
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2018-01-08T08:47:23Z beach: Right.
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2018-01-08T08:50:21Z beach: jmercouris: It is a very bad idea to define functions or macros with names in the keyword package.
2018-01-08T08:50:41Z beach: jmercouris: Top-level comments in a file should start with three semicolons.
2018-01-08T08:51:01Z Shinmera: He's not here right now and I'm not sure he reads the logs
2018-01-08T08:51:35Z beach: Maybe so.  Just putting it down before I forget.
2018-01-08T08:52:22Z beach: jmercouris:  Also, I am not sure that it is justified to make :INPUT a macro, rather than an ordinary function.
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2018-01-08T08:57:00Z beach: jmercouris: (or (not x) (and x y)) can be simplified.
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2018-01-08T08:59:24Z beach: I'll stop there for now.
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2018-01-08T15:24:08Z hhdave: Hi. I just asked this in #ccl (don’t know if anyone here but not there might know): Does anyone know if CCL can work on the Lego EV3 (with the ev3dev linux distro)? I downloaded that latest tarball and expanded it. When I tried ./armcl in the ccl directory it said ‘file not found’. I then recompiled the CCL kernel (make clean & make). This gave me a new armcl, but that one reports a segmentation fault. Do I need to specify a different float 
2018-01-08T15:24:08Z hhdave: compiling the kernel or does CCL not support this processor (wikipedia says it’s an ARM9 TI Sitara AM1x).
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2018-01-08T15:25:08Z bms_: I've never heard of that distro, hhdave. I've always wanted an EV3, since it came out.
2018-01-08T15:25:19Z bms_: Sorry, though, I'm not sure.
2018-01-08T15:25:32Z bms_: Someone might know.
2018-01-08T15:25:54Z Shinmera: hhdave: Recompiling it won't help, as CCL needs itself to compile.
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2018-01-08T15:27:32Z hhdave: bms_: Here: http://www.ev3dev.org/. I only just downloaded it and tested it on Saturday. Quickly managed to set up Wifi access with a usb dongle and SSH into the EV3. I’ve installed ECL on it (just apt-get install ecl) but that seemed to have a problem when I did (compile ‘fact) - error 1 from GCC. It’s possible that something wasn’t installed. It interprets things ok though.
2018-01-08T15:27:57Z bms_: Thanks for the link.
2018-01-08T15:27:59Z hhdave: Shinmera: It doesn’t need itself to recompile its kernel. That did recompile ok. The kernal is just a C program.
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2018-01-08T15:28:36Z hhdave: I seem to remember recompileing the armcl kernel to get it running on a Raspberry Pi. Once I did that it worked with no problem.
2018-01-08T15:29:04Z Shinmera: I had no issues running the CCL binary distribution on the Pi3 directly
2018-01-08T15:29:06Z pjb: Recompiling the kernel may be useful to adapt to the libraries of the new system.
2018-01-08T15:29:58Z hhdave: Shinmera: it was a while ago I had to do that, on a Pi B. It might not be necessary now, or with a newer Pi.
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2018-01-08T15:30:42Z hhdave: pjb: I think it was referencing libraries that weren’t there. I guess that’s why it just said ‘file not found’ when I first tried it. Any idea why it would now give a segmentation fault?
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2018-01-08T15:31:24Z pjb: hhdave: nope.  Try to debug it.
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2018-01-08T15:32:09Z hhdave: pjb: via gdb?
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2018-01-08T15:39:50Z hhdave: I wonder if it could be reserving too large a heap by default. The EV3 only has 64MB of RAM. I don’t have it here, but I’ll try it later.
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2018-01-08T15:43:27Z pjb: hhdave: yes, gdb.
2018-01-08T15:43:39Z pjb: You want to know why you get a segfault.
2018-01-08T15:44:02Z hhdave: pjb: Indeed. OK, I’ll try that
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2018-01-08T15:44:10Z hhdave: pjb: thanks
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2018-01-08T15:49:08Z dmiles: is EXTENSIONS often used in some way special to carefully import from trival packages like LOOP, SOCKET, GRAY etc?
2018-01-08T15:49:29Z Bike: what is "EXTENSIONS"
2018-01-08T15:49:54Z dmiles: the package EXTENSIONS
2018-01-08T15:50:16Z Bike: that's just a name. it has no special meaning.
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2018-01-08T15:50:36Z Bike: loop isn't trivial and also isn't an extension. sockets and gray aren't extensions but they tend to be in their own packages and also aren't trivial.
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2018-01-08T15:51:59Z Bike: my advice is when you consider adding a "special way", instead, don't
2018-01-08T15:53:52Z pjb: dmiles: the only standard package names are KEYWORD COMMON-LISP and COMMON-LISP-USER (with nicknames CL and CL-USER).
2018-01-08T15:54:07Z dmiles: the assumpytion i was going by is that packages will use EXTENSIONS as single 'use-package' to find many public symbols at once
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2018-01-08T15:55:11Z pjb: dmiles: I would discourage using a common word such as EXTENSIONS for an implementation specific package, since other packages or even libraries, may use such a package name. UNLESS you are implementing a specified API common to multiple implementations (eg. cf. the CDR).
2018-01-08T15:55:29Z pjb: dmiles: a better choice may be YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS
2018-01-08T15:55:36Z Xach: dmiles: that's one way to arrange things. i don't personally like it due to the risk of inadvertent clashes
2018-01-08T15:55:43Z Shinmera: A few implementations already provide an EXT/EXTENSIONS package
2018-01-08T15:55:55Z Shinmera: So it clashing with libraries is a moot point.
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2018-01-08T15:55:59Z pjb: But this is confusing since they don't provide the same symbols.
2018-01-08T15:56:01Z Xach: You could lock the package, but then you'd have more work to avoid things
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2018-01-08T15:56:33Z dmiles: well why i am even asking is I been placing certain helper functions in EXT,SYS,WAM-CL pacakges.. i am thinking i am about to merge the three
2018-01-08T15:56:37Z Xach: Shinmera: I mean if you are :use-ing extensions for sockets and clash with something completely unrelated like regular expressions.
2018-01-08T15:56:41Z pjb: That said, you may want to avoid such common package names. SYSTEM, SYS, EXT, EXTENSIONS, CLOS, MOP, UI, LOOP, GRAY, etc, since they're know to be used elsewhere.
2018-01-08T15:56:46Z Xach: Not the package name itself
2018-01-08T15:56:50Z Shinmera: Xach: Of course.
2018-01-08T15:56:57Z pjb: again, if you name them YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM, YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-CLOS, etc, you're good.
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2018-01-08T15:57:09Z Shinmera: Xach: I meant that, since implementations already use EXT, a library couldn't use it for itself anyway.
2018-01-08T15:57:17Z Shinmera: Xach: So another implementation using it doesn't matter.
2018-01-08T15:57:59Z pjb: Shinmera: not all implementations have an EXT package, so a library could be developed using this name.
2018-01-08T15:58:07Z p_l: SI is also taken in many classic systems
2018-01-08T15:58:10Z Shinmera: Yeah but then it wouldn't be portable already anyway
2018-01-08T15:58:15Z Shinmera: So there's little point
2018-01-08T15:58:24Z pjb: Yes: avoid short package names!
2018-01-08T15:58:33Z dmiles:  I been placing certain helper functions in EXT,SYS,WAM-CL pacakges using based on that was where they were when i stole them from ECL,ABCL,CLISP etc
2018-01-08T15:58:46Z Xach: Hmm, it woudl be nice to survey the lanscape of implementation packages intended for users to use.
2018-01-08T15:58:54Z p_l: use package renaming macros with DNS-style names :)
2018-01-08T15:59:05Z pjb: dmiles: use DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS, not EXT.
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2018-01-08T16:00:51Z dmiles: pjb: then the question i have is is there a good reason to have a MILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS and MILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM separate?
2018-01-08T16:01:01Z pjb: this is as you wish.
2018-01-08T16:01:24Z pjb: But a system and extensions seems to be two different things, so having two packages may make sense.
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2018-01-08T16:02:10Z Bike: usually "extensions" means it's intended as an exported interface for the user
2018-01-08T16:02:18Z Bike: whereas system is just your own stuff, that users shouldn't be using
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2018-01-08T16:03:29Z pjb: dmiles: you can also have nicknames, such as DCLIE, which 1- is not too short (it could be longer), 2- is almost random, si it could be unique.
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2018-01-08T16:04:35Z dmiles: *nod* right now i use DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS haivng a nickname of "EXT" and DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM as "SYS","SI","EXCL" etc
2018-01-08T16:05:04Z pjb: Nickname collision is as bad as name collision, from an implementation or a library point of view.
2018-01-08T16:05:38Z dmiles: ( also nicnamed DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS to "EXTENSIONS")
2018-01-08T16:05:38Z pjb: Basically, while one can rename a package, the way it's specified makes it rather a delicate matter to do it conformingly.
2018-01-08T16:06:11Z pjb: Also, it's very inconvenient to have to rename packages (that you may not know in advance, if you get a new version of an implementation or a library), before being able to load your code!
2018-01-08T16:07:00Z pjb: So while adding a short nickname while compiling, I would not advise leaving them in released code (load time and run-time).
2018-01-08T16:07:52Z dmiles: oh btw only durring primoridal loading do i have all the nicknames for DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM
2018-01-08T16:08:48Z dmiles: (so i supposed the name collisions are not an issue)
2018-01-08T16:09:56Z dmiles: (the nicknames are to do things like make sure I support ECL's "SI" etc)
2018-01-08T16:10:23Z dmiles: i think what gets me is how often EXT is used for impl specifics
2018-01-08T16:10:34Z dmiles: (in several lisps)
2018-01-08T16:11:32Z dmiles: like ext:function-lambda-list
2018-01-08T16:11:59Z dmiles: or ext::%dolist
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2018-01-08T16:13:56Z dmiles: why would CLISP use ext:quit isntead of sys:quit ?
2018-01-08T16:16:20Z Bike: because quitting is something the user can do
2018-01-08T16:16:31Z dmiles: even mkcl uses  mk-ext:quit   .. yet sbcl,ccl,allegro do not
2018-01-08T16:16:35Z jackdaniel: ext is for extensions, si/sys is for internal interfaces
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2018-01-08T16:16:51Z jackdaniel: so ext is something what is not in the standard, but surely is useful
2018-01-08T16:16:58Z Bike: ext::%dolist isn't the same, that's not an external symbol
2018-01-08T16:19:02Z dmiles: why would ecl use si:quit instead of ext:quit ?
2018-01-08T16:19:24Z dmiles: (refering to <Bike> because quitting is something the user can do)
2018-01-08T16:20:02Z jackdaniel: there is ext:quit in ecl
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2018-01-08T16:21:08Z jackdaniel: if quit is exported in si packages that's not a problem, since si is internal anyway
2018-01-08T16:21:15Z Bike: so there is no "instead of".
2018-01-08T16:22:15Z dmiles: ah ok that is good to know .. it is customary to export most of the usefull SYS stuff to EXT
2018-01-08T16:22:25Z jackdaniel: also it is worth noting, that some useful interfaces may be in si - that means that they shouldn't be used by a user, because there is absolutely no guarantee names and lambda-lists will match (i.e they may be changed without further notification)
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2018-01-08T16:24:40Z dmiles: jackdaniel:  so EXT you like to keep as consistent from version to version?
2018-01-08T16:25:13Z jackdaniel: if something changes in ext it is a subject of graceful deprecation first and should be documented
2018-01-08T16:25:22Z jackdaniel: changes in sys doesn't require such care
2018-01-08T16:25:32Z jackdaniel: but yes, usually things shouldn't be removed from ext
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2018-01-08T16:39:28Z dmiles: personally i have prefered ECLs use of EXT for say FIXNUMP vs CLISP putting that non exported in SYSTEM
2018-01-08T16:41:09Z dmiles: though CLISP have a reverse policy (just as consistent)
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2018-01-08T16:42:55Z dmiles: CLISP policy to make everything that is undoubltedly part of everyones lisp goes in system vs ECL's into EXT
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2018-01-08T16:47:57Z dmiles: OK nice, I implmented CLISP's LETF and luckily its in EXT and not SYSTEM (mine ended up in system due to loading in into the system package)
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2018-01-08T16:50:10Z dmiles: I think mostly what i will end up doing is having a black SYSTEM package.. intern and export all that goes to EXT, then import these EXT symbols to SYSTEM then load code (in-package :sys)  that seems to be what most do
2018-01-08T16:50:17Z dmiles: black/blank
2018-01-08T16:52:00Z dmiles: (SYSTEM will end up with no exported symbols and EXT with only exported)
2018-01-08T16:53:07Z jackdaniel: if letf is what I think it is, it is a multithreaded code disaster
2018-01-08T16:53:13Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't recommend using it
2018-01-08T16:53:50Z jackdaniel: and if you find you must, it might be a good idea to rethink the algorithm
2018-01-08T16:55:54Z dmiles: letf i think should be equivalent to using symbol macros pointed at places
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2018-01-08T16:58:28Z dmiles: (though symbol macros that call setfs when they bind)
2018-01-08T16:59:11Z dmiles: the threading problem has to do with multiple values or if you can explain jackdaniels
2018-01-08T16:59:16Z dmiles: +?
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2018-01-08T17:13:07Z dmiles: so the threading issue is just due to places more often being accessed by more than one thread?  Or is it that the thread is usualyl the vcalues holder in cases like (setf (values ..) ..) ?
2018-01-08T17:14:00Z Bike: i would guess that it's more that accessors aren't generally atomic, but it doesn't seem any worse in that respect than just setfing in multiple threads
2018-01-08T17:14:40Z dmiles: "usualyl the vcalues holder" usually the "values holder" are stored at the level of the threads instance
2018-01-08T17:15:48Z cgay: I assumed that was Welsh.
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2018-01-08T17:30:34Z sigjuice: I keep typing grep at my CL-USER> prompt. Is there something I can do to make the grep work?
2018-01-08T17:31:31Z Bike: like the posix program grep?
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2018-01-08T17:33:55Z jackdaniel: dmiles: letf body ia not atomic, so the cleanup may overwrite ypur legimite changes. sorry, writing from phonee
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2018-01-08T17:34:38Z sjl: sigjuice: (define-symbol-macro grep (format t "grepping for ~S" (read-line)))
2018-01-08T17:34:44Z sjl: [SBCL] CL-USER> grep hello world
2018-01-08T17:34:46Z sjl: grepping for "hello world"
2018-01-08T17:34:49Z sjl: what could go wrong
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2018-01-08T17:39:53Z _death: can also try for a repl hook
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2018-01-08T17:43:14Z sigjuice: sjl thanks! I will give it a try in a bit
2018-01-08T17:43:32Z sjl: it's probably not a good idea
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2018-01-08T17:43:45Z sjl: e.g. that will affect places other than the repl
2018-01-08T17:43:45Z sigjuice: how so?
2018-01-08T17:44:18Z sigjuice: but those effects should be pretty obvious, no?
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2018-01-08T17:45:30Z sjl: and you'd need that symbol macro in every possible package
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2018-01-08T17:49:26Z Bike: even if you did something like this, it wouldn't be a full shell with interpolation and stuff
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2018-01-08T17:50:07Z sjl: yeah
2018-01-08T17:50:56Z sjl: well, you could run-program a shell and let it handle that
2018-01-08T17:51:06Z sjl: but you're still gonna run into annoyances
2018-01-08T17:51:16Z Bike: my advice is don't type things into the wrong prompts
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2018-01-08T17:57:41Z jmercouris: jasom: I finished CPS style loading for JS, I made a (with-js) macro
2018-01-08T17:57:56Z jmercouris: seems to have no ill effects for the cocoa version, because as you said, I just call the callback immediately
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2018-01-08T18:09:30Z jasom: jmercouris: good to hear
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2018-01-08T18:13:41Z makomo: i'm going through paul graham's cl book and this is one of the exercises (11/6): "Define a macro that takes a list of variables and a body of code, and ensures that the variables revert to their original values after the body of code is evaluated."
2018-01-08T18:14:19Z makomo: i've done it and it works but what i'm interesting in is making it work for any object, not just integers
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2018-01-08T18:14:32Z makomo: or numbers*, i guess
2018-01-08T18:14:43Z sjl: how did you implement it?
2018-01-08T18:14:46Z Bike: what's that have to do with numbers?
2018-01-08T18:14:49Z makomo: i suppose there isn't a general way of making a copy of an object without knowing what the object is?
2018-01-08T18:14:56Z sjl: I'm curious how you would make it work for numbers and NOT just anything
2018-01-08T18:15:03Z Bike: no. why are you copying anything?
2018-01-08T18:15:12Z makomo: 1 second, let me put it up in a paste
2018-01-08T18:15:58Z makomo: here it is: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/691#691
2018-01-08T18:16:00Z sjl: I think the intent of the exercise is that the original value of the variables is the object FOO.  If that object happens to get mutated, that's fine.
2018-01-08T18:16:13Z makomo: sjl: ah
2018-01-08T18:16:19Z makomo: right, that's what i was getting at
2018-01-08T18:16:27Z makomo: for example, if a hash table was bound to the variable
2018-01-08T18:16:36Z makomo: mutating the hash table will be a persistant thing
2018-01-08T18:16:43Z sjl: yes
2018-01-08T18:16:56Z sjl: but at the end, the variable should still be pointing at the (mutated) hash table
2018-01-08T18:17:00Z cgay: Perhaps if the excercise said "revert the variables to their original bindings" instead...
2018-01-08T18:17:04Z jmercouris: Is it possible to make deep copies in lisp?
2018-01-08T18:17:11Z makomo: ^^^ interested in this
2018-01-08T18:17:12Z sjl: even if it was assigned to something else in the bodyu
2018-01-08T18:17:13Z Bike: sure it's possible
2018-01-08T18:17:15Z jmercouris: could you make a deep copy of the original object?
2018-01-08T18:17:24Z sjl: yes, but you have to implement it yourself
2018-01-08T18:17:27Z jmercouris: and then at the end just reassign the binding to that copy
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2018-01-08T18:17:38Z makomo: jmercouris: that's what i thought about, but you can't do it generally
2018-01-08T18:17:38Z Bike: there's just no "copy constructor" like in C++ because we don't have semantics that require copying everything a lot
2018-01-08T18:17:39Z jmercouris: sjl: Isn't there a way to traverse all the properties of an object?
2018-01-08T18:17:45Z makomo: it has to be implemented for every possible type
2018-01-08T18:18:01Z makomo: Bike: nicely said, i was going to mention c++'s copy ctors
2018-01-08T18:18:04Z jmercouris: Surely there are enough introspection functions that you can implement a generalized version
2018-01-08T18:18:10Z sjl: didn't gabriel write something on this
2018-01-08T18:18:16Z Bike: you can use mop to get a list of slots for an object
2018-01-08T18:18:20Z makomo: jmercouris: what about users' types?
2018-01-08T18:18:21Z Bike: but, you can also use mop to define your own kinds of slots
2018-01-08T18:18:30Z makomo: i.e. never-before-seen types
2018-01-08T18:18:47Z jmercouris: idk
2018-01-08T18:18:49Z makomo: i was trying to see whether there was a general COPY function of some sort
2018-01-08T18:18:54Z sjl: there is not
2018-01-08T18:18:58Z Bike: which might not be copy-able in any obvious way
2018-01-08T18:19:02Z makomo: yeah, that answers my question
2018-01-08T18:22:00Z sjl: aha, no, it was pitman I was thinking of
2018-01-08T18:22:02Z sjl: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
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2018-01-08T18:24:22Z makomo: sjl: oh nice, thanks
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2018-01-08T18:27:13Z flip214: comparing http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/08/july-2015-download-stats.html and http://blog.quicklisp.org/2018/01/download-stats-for-december-2017.html gives alexandria 2x the downloads...
2018-01-08T18:27:25Z flip214: Is 2018 the year of QL on the desktop??    ;)
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2018-01-08T18:31:25Z makomo: lol, a guy changed his name to Cons http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/noteheads-igor-engraver.html
2018-01-08T18:32:56Z warweasle: Cons Nolo?
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2018-01-08T18:38:54Z _death: Alyssa P.
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2018-01-08T18:47:28Z jmercouris: I can't seem to exit out of SBCL when I start it on a remote server and use slime-connect
2018-01-08T18:47:38Z jmercouris: Within the slime prompt I type (quit), but it doesn't react
2018-01-08T18:47:58Z jmercouris: It just says ; Evaluation aborted on NIL.
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2018-01-08T18:51:11Z Xach: jmercouris: That is a reaction.
2018-01-08T18:51:49Z _death: jmercouris: also, you can just use ,sayoonara
2018-01-08T18:52:14Z Shinmera: Or ,quit for the non-weebs
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2018-01-08T18:57:21Z White_Flame: I use M-x slime-disconnect or slime-quit-lisp to end things
2018-01-08T18:57:53Z Shinmera: Well disconnect is distinctly different as it leaves the lisp process alive.
2018-01-08T18:57:58Z White_Flame: right
2018-01-08T18:58:01Z Shinmera: (also available as ,disconnect)
2018-01-08T18:58:13Z White_Flame: and slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2018-01-08T18:58:22Z Shinmera: (also available as ,restart)
2018-01-08T18:58:27Z White_Flame: those are my arsenal of dealing with sbcl run & connection state
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2018-01-08T19:20:26Z jmercouris: Xach: is it though? I meant there's no return
2018-01-08T19:20:33Z jmercouris: Xach: Nor does SBCL quit
2018-01-08T19:21:11Z jmercouris: The thing is I'm not trying to just disconnect from slime, I want SBCL to quit
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2018-01-08T19:22:45Z dim: (quit) then, I think?
2018-01-08T19:22:54Z jmercouris: It doesn't quit when I type (quit) though
2018-01-08T19:23:03Z dim: (uiop:quit 1)
2018-01-08T19:23:20Z jmercouris: Ah, that does it, thank you
2018-01-08T19:24:00Z dim: the 1 is returned to the OS, signaling an error if some script is watching, btw, so maybe not what you want to do here
2018-01-08T19:24:17Z jmercouris: Hmm, is just for testing right now, so is okay
2018-01-08T19:24:25Z jmercouris: If I pass 0, will it return that exit code?
2018-01-08T19:24:46Z dim: "Quits from the Lisp world, with the given exit status if provided.
2018-01-08T19:24:47Z dim: This is designed to abstract away the implementation specific quit forms."
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2018-01-08T19:25:02Z jmercouris: seems that 0 is the default exit code
2018-01-08T19:25:09Z jmercouris: but in my source code that doesn't actually allow it to exist
2018-01-08T19:25:12Z jmercouris: exit*
2018-01-08T19:25:24Z jmercouris: maybe has something to do with being in the gtk event loop
2018-01-08T19:25:47Z dim: oh so the (uiop:quit 1) was a very lucky one ;-)
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2018-01-08T19:26:29Z Xach: jmercouris: sb-ext:quit and sb-ext:exit have different semantics.
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2018-01-08T19:27:37Z jmercouris: I see
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2018-01-08T19:33:27Z phoe: Xach: I think not anymore
2018-01-08T19:34:04Z phoe: Xach: www.sbcl.org/news.html#1.4.2
2018-01-08T19:34:16Z phoe: "minor incompatible change: SB-EXT:QUIT is no longer marked as deprecated and behaves like SB-EXT:EXIT."
2018-01-08T19:36:47Z Xach: Ok
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2018-01-08T19:38:38Z jmercouris: I can't seem to access any memory from my lisp program in a callback somehow: https://gist.github.com/d5b7f312dde4fa384c4ba82af1aec861
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2018-01-08T19:44:01Z phoe: jmercouris: that's a null pointer dereference.
2018-01-08T19:44:27Z jmercouris: What does that mean?
2018-01-08T19:44:56Z phoe: You are trying to dereference a null pointer.
2018-01-08T19:44:59Z Bike: like int* x = NULL; *x++; in C
2018-01-08T19:45:10Z Bike: trying to read from zero
2018-01-08T19:45:15Z jmercouris: Ok I see
2018-01-08T19:45:19Z phoe: I'm curious about gobject:g-signal-connect - what kind of callback are you expected to give to it?
2018-01-08T19:45:20Z jmercouris: I understand now
2018-01-08T19:45:26Z Bike: couldn't tell you why, tho
2018-01-08T19:45:31Z phoe: A Lisp lambda, or a CFFI callback of some sort?
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2018-01-08T19:45:44Z jmercouris: As shown in my example, it does work with a Lisp Lambda
2018-01-08T19:46:02Z jmercouris: but as soon as I try to access something that isn't webview, or load-event (the two args passed to the lambda), it spits out this error
2018-01-08T19:46:03Z phoe: oh, right. hm.
2018-01-08T19:46:20Z phoe: it doesn't work for closures? most weird
2018-01-08T19:46:32Z jmercouris: I can only think of a dirty solution which is extending the webview and adding a slot for the callback function
2018-01-08T19:46:47Z phoe: This is dirty.
2018-01-08T19:46:50Z phoe: I don't know what's going on.
2018-01-08T19:47:09Z jmercouris: The more I work with GTK, the more I agree with Aeronotix, what a right mess
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2018-01-08T19:50:08Z phoe: you should be glad that SBCL provides handlers for signals like that
2018-01-08T19:50:18Z phoe: and you get a nice-looking Common Lisp error in the Common Lisp debugger
2018-01-08T19:50:28Z jmercouris: Alright, so I've narrowed down the issue I think
2018-01-08T19:50:48Z jmercouris: GTK does not like it when you set a signal on an object that hasn't yet been created :D
2018-01-08T19:50:51Z phoe: because otherwise you'd just be in deep shit while trying to read crash logs produced by ySegmentation fault (core dumped)
2018-01-08T19:50:54Z phoe: jmercouris: oops
2018-01-08T19:50:54Z jmercouris: Ah, the lovely asynchronous nature of it
2018-01-08T19:51:15Z jmercouris: Well, I started the system, loaded gtk, rendered the view, then attempted to set the signal
2018-01-08T19:51:28Z jmercouris: even though that's exactly what my code does, by pausing before setting the signal it worked
2018-01-08T19:51:35Z jmercouris: seems I need to also synchronize this
2018-01-08T19:51:41Z phoe: so you need to finish instantiating all objects first.
2018-01-08T19:51:45Z phoe: and only then signal stuff.
2018-01-08T19:51:52Z jmercouris: precisely
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2018-01-08T19:55:48Z jmercouris: gtk is so good, if you are a masochist
2018-01-08T19:55:53Z pagnol: did any here set up an ecs with cl?
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2018-01-08T19:58:46Z phoe: pagnol: ecs?
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2018-01-08T19:59:05Z pagnol: phoe, for entity-component system, a pattern that's often used in game development
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2018-01-08T19:59:28Z aeth: pagnol: try asking in #lispgames
2018-01-08T19:59:39Z aeth: There are probably a dozen
2018-01-08T19:59:44Z pagnol: oh, I had no idea there's a channel, thanks!
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2018-01-08T20:20:47Z frodef: hi all
2018-01-08T20:20:59Z Xach: hi frodef
2018-01-08T20:21:05Z Xach: back to hack?
2018-01-08T20:21:26Z frodef: Hi Xach, trying.. :)
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2018-01-08T20:24:06Z frodef: Having an issue with trivial-http, trying (shttp:http-get "http:/foo/bar") ...
2018-01-08T20:24:49Z frodef: ... seems to translate to "GET http://foo/bar HTTP/1.0" which is ... wrong, isn't it?
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2018-01-08T20:25:21Z Xach: I've never tried trivial-http, only drakma and dexador, sorry.
2018-01-08T20:25:23Z Xach: (mostly drakma)
2018-01-08T20:25:33Z Xach: frodef: that request is something you'd send to a proxy, maybe.
2018-01-08T20:26:06Z frodef: Seems to me an extremely basic mistake on trivial-http
2018-01-08T20:26:19Z frodef: 's part, so basic it's rather silly.
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2018-01-08T20:28:25Z Xach: Hard to say. I didn't even know about trivial-http until just now!
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2018-01-08T20:28:44Z _death: trivial libraries with trivial bugs
2018-01-08T20:29:47Z frodef: guess so :)
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2018-01-08T20:31:06Z Xach: frodef: where does "shttp" come from?
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2018-01-08T20:31:46Z frodef: package nickname I suppose
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2018-01-08T20:33:25Z Xach: frodef: It's not incorrect behavior, I don't think.
2018-01-08T20:34:15Z frodef: I'm not really sure. Problem is, it
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2018-01-08T20:34:24Z frodef: 's rejected by the server I
2018-01-08T20:34:35Z frodef: 'm interested in.
2018-01-08T20:34:43Z frodef: (shitty keyboard)
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2018-01-08T20:35:31Z Xach: frodef: is simplicity of client very important? if not, drakma works all right in many cases.
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2018-01-08T20:37:11Z fiveop: I have a form '(lambda (x) x) and want to get the function that corresponds to the form (lambda (x) x). How would I do that?
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2018-01-08T20:38:51Z sjl: fiveop: THE function?  or A function?  `(compile nil '(lambda (x) x))` maybe?
2018-01-08T20:38:54Z Bike: fiveop: compile or coerce or eval
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2018-01-08T20:39:25Z sjl: huh, didn't know coerce could do that
2018-01-08T20:39:32Z Bike: it's kind of weird, yeah
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2018-01-08T20:40:13Z fiveop: I did not think of compile, thank you.
2018-01-08T20:41:18Z sjl: huh, maybe I could start using plain old 'coerce instead of alexandria's ensure-function
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2018-01-08T20:42:53Z _death: sjl: they do different things?
2018-01-08T20:43:08Z sjl: not for the cases I generally use them for, I think
2018-01-08T20:43:10Z fiveop: Is there a generic solution that takes either of 'function-name, '(function function-name), and '(lambda (x) x) and spits out the desired function object
2018-01-08T20:44:08Z frodef: Xach: yes, suppose I should switch client.
2018-01-08T20:44:14Z sjl: fiveop: are you sure you mean to have that quote in '(function function-name)?
2018-01-08T20:44:39Z fiveop: I am sure, but I might just not allow it in my API.
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2018-01-08T20:44:56Z fiveop: I was thinking of taking input of the form '(... (:satisfies #'predicate) ...)
2018-01-08T20:45:33Z sjl: yes, #'foo expands to (function foo) not '(function foo)
2018-01-08T20:45:35Z fiveop: but if I just accept '(... (:satisfies predicate) ...) and '(... (:satisfies (lambda (x) x)) ...)
2018-01-08T20:45:38Z fiveop: I could use coerce
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2018-01-08T20:46:05Z _death: sjl: I think it's a schemism to add quotes to everything
2018-01-08T20:46:05Z sjl: (coerce ... 'function) will work with ... = 'foo or #'foo or '(lambda () ...)
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2018-01-08T20:46:11Z sjl: ah
2018-01-08T20:47:36Z fiveop: The problem is (coerce (car '(#'foo)) 'function)
2018-01-08T20:48:05Z fiveop: it does not work, because I destructure a sexpression tree I get the actual list '(function foo) not what #'foo evaluates to
2018-01-08T20:50:19Z _death: fiveop: (function foo) is not a function designator.. so you can come up with an "extended function designator" concept and have operators working with that
2018-01-08T20:51:17Z fiveop: yes
2018-01-08T20:51:38Z fiveop: thanks, I was just wondering if there was already a solution in the standard
2018-01-08T20:51:44Z _death: also, there is already an "extended function designator" concept in CL.. so may want to choose another name ;)
2018-01-08T20:51:45Z fiveop: I will just not allow #'
2018-01-08T20:52:23Z Xach: Where do these expressions come from?
2018-01-08T20:53:08Z fiveop: The caller of my function
2018-01-08T20:53:15Z Bike: there's also setf function names.
2018-01-08T20:53:27Z Xach: fiveop: where does the caller get it from?
2018-01-08T20:53:43Z fiveop: by writing them
2018-01-08T20:54:38Z fiveop: I want to write a pattern matcher for s-expressions with a syntax for patterns similar to the tree patterns of cl-ppcre
2018-01-08T20:54:54Z fiveop: eg (matches nil (:list))
2018-01-08T20:55:11Z fiveop: or (matches nil (:satisfies listp)) => t
2018-01-08T20:55:52Z fiveop: but (matches (2) (:list)) => nil whereas (matches (2) (:list (satisfies numberp))) => t
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2018-01-08T20:56:17Z fiveop: there is a : missing
2018-01-08T20:57:19Z fiveop: The goal is to verify and maybe later destructure complex macro arguments in a clean way
2018-01-08T20:59:07Z Xach: sounds interesting
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2018-01-08T21:17:18Z fiveop: thanks
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2018-01-08T21:28:57Z makomo: does anyone know what the names of the map functions stand for (except for mapcar and maplist maybe)?
2018-01-08T21:29:01Z makomo: for example mapc and mapcan
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2018-01-08T21:29:20Z makomo: i'm looking for a good mnemonic or something similar
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2018-01-08T21:35:46Z rme: maybe mapc is shorter than mapcar because the successive cars aren't returned as a list?
2018-01-08T21:36:16Z makomo: that's what i'm thinking too. and the same logic would go for maplist/mapl.
2018-01-08T21:36:23Z Bike: maplist to mapcon kind of fucks it up
2018-01-08T21:36:26Z makomo: and then mapcan and mapcon remain
2018-01-08T21:36:29Z makomo: yeah lol
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2018-01-08T21:37:03Z makomo: mapcan is understandable, it's mapcar with an n, i.e. it's destructible
2018-01-08T21:37:13Z rme: As for mapcan, it's like mapcar, only the "n" means that it nconcs the results together.
2018-01-08T21:37:22Z makomo: yeah :-)
2018-01-08T21:37:27Z rme: what you said
2018-01-08T21:37:28Z makomo: maplist -> mapcon sucks indeed
2018-01-08T21:39:52Z foom2 is now known as foom
2018-01-08T21:40:00Z rme: Perhaps interestingly (or not), ccl implements all of those mapxxx functions using an common function called ccl::map1.
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2018-01-08T21:45:11Z cgay: mapcarn
2018-01-08T21:46:04Z fe[nl]ix: yeah, let's map the car out of that list
2018-01-08T21:46:13Z fe[nl]ix: n
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2018-01-08T21:52:20Z cgay: nmapcar probably makes more sense, in a matching CL's naming conventions sort of way?
2018-01-08T21:54:10Z pjb: map-list-elements-concatenating-results
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2018-01-08T21:55:29Z cgay: reduce
2018-01-08T21:55:41Z pjb: The point of mapcar/mapcan/mapcon etc, being to 1- keep the symbol name at 6 characters or less so it can be stored in a single word, 2- have some homogeneous names for similar operations.
2018-01-08T21:56:15Z pjb: reduce doesn't concatenate the results, it defers to the caller.
2018-01-08T21:56:27Z cgay: indeed
2018-01-08T21:58:28Z pagnol: can I somehow tell sbcl that a vector will only ever contain objects of a certain type?
2018-01-08T22:00:13Z Bike: yes, you can declare it to be of type (vector [type]) and i think itll figure it out
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2018-01-08T22:04:30Z sjl: well, "will only ever contain objects of a certain type" doesn't necessarily make it a (vector TYPE)
2018-01-08T22:04:48Z sjl: e.g. `(vector 1 2 3)` is not a `(vector fixnum)`
2018-01-08T22:05:21Z razzy: I have question, wasn't #lisp bigger 15 years back?
2018-01-08T22:07:24Z Shinmera: #lisp has only been around since 2004.
2018-01-08T22:07:31Z Shinmera: So the answer is no
2018-01-08T22:07:46Z razzy: thank you
2018-01-08T22:08:02Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-01-08T22:08:05Z Shinmera: At least that's what ChanServ tells me
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2018-01-08T22:08:37Z pjb: #lisp existed before, but wasn't registered in ChanServ. Perhaps #lisp wasn't even on freenode then!
2018-01-08T22:08:40Z pagnol: sjl, mind explaining this to someone new to lisp?
2018-01-08T22:09:14Z pjb: pagnol: cf. upgraded-array-element-type
2018-01-08T22:11:14Z razzy: is here some elder from ancient times? 2000? irc.freenode seems like very good technology and idea to be this small
2018-01-08T22:11:21Z foom: http://blog.kpe.io/archives/lisp/ mentions "import lisp logs extending back to Sep 2000"
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2018-01-08T22:11:38Z foom: irc is pretty crappy for modern requirements.
2018-01-08T22:11:40Z pagnol: if I add a line (check-type x (vector integer)) then my code compiles but when I pass a vector with strings then the compiler doesn't warn me
2018-01-08T22:11:55Z Shinmera: foom: And yet in many ways it's better than all modern solutions :/
2018-01-08T22:12:12Z foom: Shinmera: yeah, that's the dilemma.
2018-01-08T22:12:19Z pagnol: are there popular slack channels for cl?
2018-01-08T22:12:19Z sjl: pagnol: it's a bit complicated, but in a nutshell: if you create an array with (make array ... :element-type foo) then they array is only ever allowed to contain foo's, and the Lisp is allowed to optimize how it stores the array
2018-01-08T22:12:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-08T22:13:05Z sjl: e.g. if you (make-array ... :element-type 'bit) SBCL will (I think) pack the bits into contiguous hunks of memory, rather than having one byte/word/etc per element
2018-01-08T22:13:17Z pillton: sjl: That isn't correct.
2018-01-08T22:13:21Z sjl: no?
2018-01-08T22:13:27Z phoe: What is the function to get the filename from a pathname? for #p"/foo/bar.baz", I want to get "bar.baz"
2018-01-08T22:13:51Z Shinmera: phoe: (format NIL "~a~@[.~a~]" (pathname-name a) (pathname-type a))
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2018-01-08T22:14:04Z phoe: Shinmera: hacky as fuck - but thanks
2018-01-08T22:14:14Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell phoe look up pathname-utils file-name
2018-01-08T22:14:14Z Colleen: phoe: Function pathname-utils:file-name https://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils#FUNCTION%20PATHNAME-UTILS%3AFILE-NAME
2018-01-08T22:14:25Z phoe: Shinmera: less hacky. thanks!
2018-01-08T22:14:33Z sjl: anyway, it's implementation-dependent what element types the Lisp will optimize
2018-01-08T22:15:40Z pillton: sjl: The value of :element-type allows make-array to optimize the representation of elements in the array. It does not restrict what elements can be stored though.
2018-01-08T22:16:18Z sjl: the upgraded-array-element-type thing pjb mentioned is a way to see what the element type of the array actually ends up being
2018-01-08T22:16:23Z sjl: pillton: `(make-array 1 :element-type 'bit :initial-element 2)
2018-01-08T22:16:28Z pillton: sjl: (setf (aref (make-array 1 :element-type '(or integer float)) 0) "Hey") => "Hey"
2018-01-08T22:16:43Z Bike: i was just talking about declaring the vector type, in which case (vector (or cons function)) or whatever does tell the implementation that the elements are of that type, even if that's upgraded to t
2018-01-08T22:16:57Z Bike: doesn't work for check-type though
2018-01-08T22:17:24Z froggey: phoe: file-namestring?
2018-01-08T22:17:48Z pillton: I haven't followed the conversation and I have only read sjl's last comment.
2018-01-08T22:17:50Z Shinmera: Bah, how could I forget about file-namestring
2018-01-08T22:17:52Z sjl: pillton: yeah, that particular type gets upgraded to t
2018-01-08T22:17:57Z phoe: froggey: wow
2018-01-08T22:18:04Z phoe: you are correct, thanks!
2018-01-08T22:19:08Z sjl: if you use an element-type that doesn't get upgraded to t, it'll restrict what can be stored in the array
2018-01-08T22:19:13Z sjl: clhs make-array
2018-01-08T22:19:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2018-01-08T22:19:15Z sjl: > The new-array can actually store any objects of the type which results from upgrading element-type; see Section 15.1.2.1 (Array Upgrading).
2018-01-08T22:20:30Z Bike: the integer float setf is UB, though of course it does usually work
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2018-01-08T22:20:53Z sjl: pagnol: so anyway, implementations are allowed to take advantage of :element-type if they want
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2018-01-08T22:21:34Z sjl: and the type specifier `(vector FOO)` essentially means "a one-dimensional array with an :element-type of FOO"
2018-01-08T22:21:54Z sjl: which is not necessarily the same thing as "a one-dimensional array that will only ever contain FOOs"
2018-01-08T22:22:00Z Bike: no
2018-01-08T22:22:11Z Bike: the type specifier actually does mean it only contains foos, regardless of the upgrading
2018-01-08T22:22:21Z Bike: at least for declarations
2018-01-08T22:22:33Z pillton: sjl: The upgraded array element type can be more general then the specified element type e.g. on SBCL (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 17)) => (unsigned-byte 7)
2018-01-08T22:22:50Z sjl: pillton: yes, I'm aware of that
2018-01-08T22:22:59Z phoe: Bike: "the integer float setf is UB" <- what do you mean?
2018-01-08T22:23:18Z Bike: is it not obvious?
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2018-01-08T22:23:21Z sjl: Bike: I'm saying that if I (defparameter *x* (vector 1 2 3)) and never change its values, it's still not a `(vector fixnum)`
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2018-01-08T22:23:42Z sjl: Bike: even though it's "a one-dimensional array that only ever contains fixnums"
2018-01-08T22:24:00Z Bike: yyyyyes, i think that's right
2018-01-08T22:24:38Z sjl: how about this: all (vector fixnums) contain only fixnums, but not all vectors that contain only fixnums are (vector fixnums)
2018-01-08T22:24:40Z sjl: lol
2018-01-08T22:25:14Z pillton: No that isn't right.
2018-01-08T22:25:28Z Bike: array upgrading sucks
2018-01-08T22:25:32Z sjl: assuming that fixnum is the upgraded type
2018-01-08T22:26:03Z pillton: Yes, under that premise.
2018-01-08T22:26:16Z pillton: clhs 15.1.2.2
2018-01-08T22:26:16Z specbot: Required Kinds of Specialized Arrays: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_abb.htm
2018-01-08T22:26:24Z pillton: Fixnum isn't required to be specialized.
2018-01-08T22:26:34Z phoe: only strings and bitarrays are.
2018-01-08T22:26:41Z sjl: yeah
2018-01-08T22:26:58Z phoe: Bike: I don't understand what "the integer float setf" means
2018-01-08T22:27:02Z jmercouris: jasom: Just released the experimental/alpha version of nEXT for linux
2018-01-08T22:27:09Z phoe: (setf 2 2.0) is the first thing that comes to my mind
2018-01-08T22:27:12Z phoe: which is silly
2018-01-08T22:27:19Z jmercouris: jasom: Now I gotta update cl-webkit to be able to work with libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so
2018-01-08T22:27:25Z Bike: phoe: pillton's example (setf (aref (make-array 1 :element-type '(or integer float)) 0) "Hey")
2018-01-08T22:27:40Z phoe: ooh, that one
2018-01-08T22:27:59Z phoe: that's a type mismatch, "Hey" is not of type (or integer float)
2018-01-08T22:28:17Z phoe: even if the resulting array is of type T, portable code shouldn't depend on it being T
2018-01-08T22:28:39Z phoe: since an implementation is allowed to create a specialized array for holding only (or integer float)s
2018-01-08T22:28:49Z phoe: and this will break
2018-01-08T22:29:19Z sjl: unless you check that (upgraded-array-element-type '(or float integer)) is t first, heh
2018-01-08T22:29:29Z sjl: though obviously you'd never do that
2018-01-08T22:29:35Z jmercouris: What does it mean to clean a Lisp image?
2018-01-08T22:29:49Z jmercouris: or to have a "clean" image?
2018-01-08T22:29:56Z jmercouris: basically that nothing has been loaded?
2018-01-08T22:30:06Z phoe: jmercouris: yes
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2018-01-08T22:34:33Z pillton: All this time I have been cleaning the Lisp image on the wall.
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2018-01-08T22:39:14Z pillton: phoe: The point of that example was to show that (setf (aref ...) ...) does not do any checking.
2018-01-08T22:40:42Z sjl: pagnol: anyway, if you declare that something is a (vector FOO) you must have created it with an :element-type of FOO (or an element-type that upgrades to the same result type).  it's not enough to just make sure it only ever contains FOOs.
2018-01-08T22:41:27Z pagnol: sjl, alright, thanks for taking the time explain it
2018-01-08T22:41:32Z pagnol: *to
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2018-01-08T22:41:40Z sjl: array element types are tricky in lisp, unfortunately
2018-01-08T22:41:53Z sjl: the book Common Lisp Recipes has a good section on them, if I remember right
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2018-01-08T22:43:31Z sjl: yeah, chapter 5-9 in there.
2018-01-08T22:44:00Z sjl: It's not free, but it's a good book that's worth the money if you want to dive further into Common Lisp eventually.
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2018-01-08T22:45:55Z pillton: It would be good to think through the impacts of enforcing the element-type.
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2018-01-08T22:49:21Z pillton: sjl: Sorry for jumping in there.
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2018-01-08T22:51:39Z sjl: it's cool
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2018-01-08T22:53:35Z sjl: to give you an idea of the kind of "fun" things that can happen, consider something very broken like this: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5a53f663515cd300085229ef
2018-01-08T22:53:52Z sjl: (never go full (safety 0))
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2018-01-08T22:54:52Z pillton: Safety has nothing to do with it. That is an implementation detail.
2018-01-08T22:54:55Z pillton: clhs 1.4.4.3
2018-01-08T22:54:55Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2018-01-08T22:54:57Z pillton: "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
2018-01-08T22:55:14Z sjl: sbcl won't let you do it unless you specifically set safety to 0
2018-01-08T22:55:32Z sjl: other implementations might let you shoot yourself in the foot even with lesser settings, yes
2018-01-08T22:56:43Z sjl: ccl also checks the type at safety 1
2018-01-08T22:56:51Z sjl: those are the only 2 implementations I have on this machine to check
2018-01-08T22:57:23Z phoe: pillton: it might do checking.
2018-01-08T22:57:27Z aeth: If you want to test a lot of implementations, you can set up roswell for that
2018-01-08T22:58:10Z sjl: I'd be surprised if many implementations didn't check the type at safety >= 1, but yeah, they're allowed to not check if they want to
2018-01-08T22:58:17Z phoe: pillton: since it's undefined behaviour, the implementation might do typechecks on array access, and error in case a mistyped value is set into an array.
2018-01-08T22:58:31Z aeth: I use roswell when I need to see how (or if) something works just about every implementation. It doesn't have MKCL and I can't get its Clasp to work. Other than that, it has pretty much every free implementation.
2018-01-08T22:58:31Z phoe: *whether* implementations do it is another story. (:
2018-01-08T22:58:52Z sjl: I mean, it's undefined behavior.  It could launch Nethack.
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2018-01-08T22:59:10Z pillton: phoe: Sure. I am just making sure people are aware of their assumptions.
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2018-01-08T23:15:21Z pagnol: I see lots of Japense names when browsing repos on github... is the lisp community strong there?
2018-01-08T23:15:26Z pagnol: *Japanese
2018-01-08T23:15:43Z jmercouris: Apparently it is :D
2018-01-08T23:16:00Z jmercouris: I think it's also true that emacs has some presence there, which leads of course to Lisp
2018-01-08T23:16:13Z jmercouris: I see alot of Japanese specific emacs/lisp things
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2018-01-08T23:16:44Z pagnol: especially the name Eitaro Fukumachi jumps out at me just about everywhere
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2018-01-08T23:18:10Z pansninja: Hello
2018-01-08T23:18:28Z pansninja: Do you read CAR and CDR as "car" and See-Dee-Are?
2018-01-08T23:19:02Z aeth: cuh-dur
2018-01-08T23:19:07Z pagnol: thanks for asking this question.. I was wondering too the other day :)
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2018-01-08T23:20:15Z aeth: and "cadr" would be "ca-dur" and "caddr" would be "ca-dud-ur" and "cadadr" would be "ca-dad-ur" etc
2018-01-08T23:20:22Z aeth: You can pronounce all combinations
2018-01-08T23:21:23Z Shinmera: clhs car
2018-01-08T23:21:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2018-01-08T23:21:49Z Shinmera: pansninja: ^includes phonetic scripture for the pronunciation
2018-01-08T23:22:47Z Shinmera: Well, it's not IPA, but some scripture at least.
2018-01-08T23:22:51Z aeth: basically, use "uh" to fill in where there is no vowel.
2018-01-08T23:23:34Z aeth: "cddr" -> "cuhduhduhr"
2018-01-08T23:23:41Z pansninja: duhhh.
2018-01-08T23:23:41Z aeth: "caddr" -> "caduhduhr"
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2018-01-08T23:24:49Z pansninja: Thanks.
2018-01-08T23:25:08Z aeth: So there's always one of two vowels "ah" or "uh"
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2018-01-08T23:29:05Z cgay: They almost got it right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5LLPmEuiE
2018-01-08T23:29:13Z phoe: pagnol: /r/lisp_ja
2018-01-08T23:29:35Z rme: I and people I know say "car" (car) and "could-er" (cdr) and "cadder" (cadr).
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2018-01-08T23:32:02Z rme: if you say "see-dee-are", people will point and laugh at you :-)
2018-01-08T23:32:21Z pagnol: phoe, wow, looks pretty active
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2018-01-08T23:34:27Z pagnol: cgay, https://forvo.com/word/ar/qatar/#ar
2018-01-08T23:34:39Z pagnol: it's actually pronounced like this
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2018-01-08T23:37:52Z aeth: It depends on the Lisp, too, e.g. with MIT Scheme "car" is pronounced "cah". This holds for all Lisps and Schemes made in the Boston area.
2018-01-08T23:38:10Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2018-01-08T23:38:34Z bms_: :P
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2018-01-08T23:39:50Z aeth: Hmm... CCL's developers are in the Boston area. So apparently that includes CCL
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2018-01-08T23:40:17Z pagnol: somehow the loop macro feels like a drug
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2018-01-08T23:41:27Z rme: I'm a ccl developer, and I'm not in the Boston area.
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2018-01-08T23:44:28Z aeth: s/CCL's developers are/the company that primarily sponsors CCL development is/
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2018-01-08T23:44:39Z pagnol: I found out about ParentScript only this evening and am amazed that it was made in 2005 apparently, a long time before the js craze took off
2018-01-08T23:44:59Z aeth: pagnol: It's really easy to go to or from s-expressions
2018-01-08T23:45:07Z aeth: (because you're essentially working in an intermediate representation)
2018-01-08T23:45:42Z pagnol: aeth, sorry, you lost me, in reference to what did you write that?
2018-01-08T23:46:45Z aeth: pagnol: Lisp developers see some strange syntax that they're forced to use (JavaScript, HTML, CSS, GLSL, XML, SGML, CSV, JSON, SQL, whatever) and their first instinct is to try to generate it from s-expressions
2018-01-08T23:46:55Z rme: While Clozure Associates has indeed supported CCL for a very long time, CCL relies on (and needs) contributions and support from its users.
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2018-01-08T23:49:32Z aeth: pagnol: Generating a string or a file from s-expressions is a very simple thing to do.
2018-01-08T23:50:14Z pansninja: What is parentscript?
2018-01-08T23:50:15Z pansninja: wot?
2018-01-08T23:50:27Z aeth: parenscript is generating JavaScript from s-expressions
2018-01-08T23:50:37Z aeth: There's also JSCL, which tries to keep more of the CL semantics iirc
2018-01-08T23:50:41Z pansninja: XML actually a kind of s-expression.
2018-01-08T23:50:42Z pansninja: aeth: Sauce?
2018-01-08T23:50:44Z aeth: Both are very incomplete.
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2018-01-08T23:50:55Z aeth: I've used the JSCL REPL when I need a REPL in a browser on the go, though
2018-01-08T23:51:03Z pansninja: Oh
2018-01-08T23:51:05Z aeth: https://jscl-project.github.io/
2018-01-08T23:51:09Z p_l: Well, parenscript is more of a "syntax" to write JS in
2018-01-08T23:51:09Z pansninja: it is Paren. Not Parent.
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2018-01-08T23:51:54Z pansninja: I believe one of the major things that holds lisp back from adoption is not the syntax, but the idiosyncratic documentations.
2018-01-08T23:51:59Z aeth: pansninja: XML has an ambiguity that s-expressions don't have, probably introduced because of how verbose and annoying XML is
2018-01-08T23:52:12Z pansninja: I am yet to find a language with more over complicated and poor UX docs than lisp.
2018-01-08T23:52:25Z aeth: The XML ambiguity is: <foo bar="baz">...</foo> vs. <foo><bar>baz</bar>...</foo>
2018-01-08T23:52:28Z pansninja: And that is coming from someone who has come to love lisp in some ways.
2018-01-08T23:53:29Z pansninja: aeth: But that is not the same thing at all. foo with bar set to baz is not same as a foor with a bar.
2018-01-08T23:53:32Z pansninja: obviously.
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2018-01-08T23:54:12Z pansninja: (foo :bar "buz") vs (foo (bar (buz))).
2018-01-08T23:54:12Z aeth: <person name="Phil">...</person> vs. <person><name>Phil</name>...</person>
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2018-01-08T23:54:41Z pansninja: (person :name "Phil") vs (person (name "phil"))...
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2018-01-08T23:55:19Z Shinmera: The difference with sexprs is that they have no defined structure beyond lists and atoms.
2018-01-08T23:55:30Z Shinmera: XML does. It forces the ambiguity on you.
2018-01-08T23:55:32Z aeth: CL in particular has the plist vs alist issue, most Lisps just have alists, which are harder to write.
2018-01-08T23:56:02Z aeth: That's probably the most direct comparison, but you don't mix plists and alists in the same data structure afaik
2018-01-08T23:56:05Z pansninja: Shinmera: Example?
2018-01-08T23:56:10Z Shinmera: Of what
2018-01-08T23:56:23Z pansninja: Of an ambiguity in XML that is not possible in CL.
2018-01-08T23:56:31Z Shinmera: What we're discussing right now?
2018-01-08T23:56:33Z pansninja: Considering plists and alists issue mentioned by aeth.
2018-01-08T23:56:36Z Bike: lisp library docs kind of blow a lot, it's true. hyperspec is pretty good though.
2018-01-08T23:56:45Z pansninja: Shinmera: Stop it. It doesn't look good on you.
2018-01-08T23:56:58Z Shinmera: plists and alists are someting made up by people. They're not part of sexpr syntax.
2018-01-08T23:57:11Z Shinmera: What doesn't look good on me?
2018-01-08T23:57:20Z pansninja: Bike: hyperspec is rubbish. Do you really think the image of a script as a button and a wildly complicate layout and flow is good? how?
2018-01-08T23:57:27Z pansninja: Shinmera: Your... face. :P
2018-01-08T23:57:38Z Shinmera: Uh. Okey, nice try?
2018-01-08T23:57:43Z rme shakes head
2018-01-08T23:57:49Z Bike: i hit table of contents, i go places
2018-01-08T23:57:55Z Bike: the pictures are old, no big
2018-01-08T23:58:11Z Bike: i meant the content more than the buttons, anywho
2018-01-08T23:58:21Z aeth: The Hyperspec looks like it was designed in 1996, probably because it was (although iirc it was given a slight visual improvement over the 1996 version if you look at the Wayback Machine)
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2018-01-08T23:58:32Z pansninja: Navigation is a big part for me. if I can't find the content.
2018-01-08T23:58:38Z pansninja: It is as good as nonexistent.
2018-01-08T23:58:43Z Bike: well, go to the table of contents
2018-01-08T23:58:48Z Bike: and then you can click the nice textually named chapters
2018-01-08T23:58:58Z pansninja: I need like 25 clicks and five backs to get to it from most pages.
2018-01-08T23:59:14Z pansninja: You can't convince me that it is a good experience.
2018-01-08T23:59:17Z aeth: The design of the HyperSpec is old enough to drink in the United States
2018-01-08T23:59:18Z pansninja: I don't find it a good experience.
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2018-01-08T23:59:26Z aeth: (21 years old)
2018-01-08T23:59:27Z pansninja: aeth: Thank you.
2018-01-09T00:00:01Z aeth: An updated web page design signals that the entity behind it is still alive.
2018-01-09T00:00:06Z aeth: It doesn't reflect well on CL
2018-01-09T00:00:28Z pansninja: Seriously?
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2018-01-09T00:00:35Z pansninja: I really hope you're kidding.
2018-01-09T00:01:13Z cgay: KMP is still alive and kicking.
2018-01-09T00:01:20Z cgay: pansninja: I'm with you, fwiw.
2018-01-09T00:01:39Z aeth: The HyperSpec could be worse, though. This website is also from 1996: https://www.warnerbros.com/archive/spacejam/movie/jam.htm
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2018-01-09T00:01:57Z pansninja: aeth: I am sorry brother, but that is a useless argument.
2018-01-09T00:02:05Z aeth: pansninja: What's a useless argument?
2018-01-09T00:02:19Z pansninja: The point is, that hyperspec sucks in 2018. Not that some websites from 1990s suck more.
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2018-01-09T00:02:51Z bms_: I actually love that Space Jam site.
2018-01-09T00:02:56Z pansninja: And if Hyperspecw was merely a historical artifact, I would understand.
2018-01-09T00:03:09Z pansninja: But it is touted as the canonical reference.
2018-01-09T00:03:15Z aeth: My point is that a web design from 1996 (with the background turned to white and the images very slightly updated iirc) as the official reference isn't going to reflect well on the community. Especially when the competition has websites like this: https://docs.python.org/3/
2018-01-09T00:03:24Z pansninja: Which is just not good enough for 2018. It sucks.
2018-01-09T00:03:55Z pansninja: cgay: I find it strange that not many people around here see the problem.
2018-01-09T00:03:55Z bms_: I think you guys are kind of saying the same thing. Where's the argument?
2018-01-09T00:03:57Z rme: Well then, I'll get right on that.
2018-01-09T00:03:57Z aeth: Actually, I hate the new Python documentation style.
2018-01-09T00:04:05Z Xach: People who are used to the spec as it is can access info very quickly, so there's a reduced incentive to change it.
2018-01-09T00:04:21Z Xach: I am used to it, I like it, and I can find exactly what I need very quickly. So I don't mind the way it is at all.
2018-01-09T00:04:22Z cgay: pansninja: welcome to lisp :)
2018-01-09T00:04:33Z Xach: I'm up for something newer, if it's also easy to use.
2018-01-09T00:04:43Z Xach: I'm just not going to do it myself - I like what I have.
2018-01-09T00:04:48Z bms_: There's also a reduced incentive for new people to use it, although I've had no real problem with it.
2018-01-09T00:05:33Z aeth: Xach: I personally can only navigate the hyperspec through http://l1sp.org/html/
2018-01-09T00:05:39Z Xach: I think it takes a special kind of determination to start with something you don't like, learn it well enough to do it better, and then still do it better. There are many opportunities to either peel off or decide it's not bad after all.
2018-01-09T00:05:43Z aeth: I use !l1sp in DDG to search
2018-01-09T00:06:34Z Xach: Yes, I think it's pretty important to be able to jump exactly to a definition or chapter.
2018-01-09T00:06:41Z aeth: Iirc, the HyperSpec has essentially no style. Changing your browser's default font from serif to sans-serif helps make it look more modern
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2018-01-09T00:10:10Z aeth: For more elaborate things, like setting a maximum width, you can use a simple script. One way is through Greasemonkey in Firefox. That's probably a more annoying style issue.
2018-01-09T00:11:17Z aeth: A lot of modern sites have this issue, though. I guess designers never test their site at 1080p fullscreen
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2018-01-09T00:14:04Z sigjuice: pansninja C-c C-d h takes you right to whatever is under your cursor.  and every page has a million cross-references.
2018-01-09T00:14:28Z pansninja: sigjuice: I don't use what you do.
2018-01-09T00:15:22Z sigjuice: what do you use then?
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2018-01-09T00:37:54Z sigjuice: aeth https://docs.python.org/3/genindex.html different and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Master.htm are not that different
2018-01-09T00:38:44Z sigjuice: s,different,,
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2018-01-09T00:51:00Z aeth: sigjuice: The HyperSpec is so old that, ironically, its style has (mostly) come back around as long as your web browser defaults to san-serif (which most don't, but it is configurable) instead of serif. The main exceptions are that the search isn't accessible from the page and the navigation is done through GIFs
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2018-01-09T00:51:37Z aeth: Not having a max width is pretty bad, even Python's documentation is basically unreadable with a maximized or fullscreen browser at 1080p
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2018-01-09T00:52:30Z aeth: Much better documentation: https://docs.racket-lang.org/
2018-01-09T00:52:48Z aeth: (Except that's serif, not sans-serif)
2018-01-09T00:53:09Z aeth: Another small detail is links are color coded blue and not both color coded and underlined these days.
2018-01-09T00:53:15Z aeth: (I think Wikipedia started that trend)
2018-01-09T00:53:50Z aeth: There are some very small details that could greatly improve CL documentation
2018-01-09T00:55:56Z aeth: One thing almost all of the documentation sites do is make code blocks very distinguishable from body text
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2018-01-09T01:11:35Z rpg: aeth: I'm not sure why designers dropped the underlining -- oftentimes these days links are very hard to find.  Sometimes they don't mark them at all and websites are like a point-and-click adventure game...
2018-01-09T01:12:24Z aeth: It works on Wikipedia. It doesn't work if you don't keep the color system, ideally the exact same one as Wikipedia's
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2018-01-09T01:16:20Z aeth: It's not like the HyperSpec is any better, though. Image links for navigation are bad, especially because they're archaic and so don't stand out
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2018-01-09T01:32:18Z rpg: aeth: ? Seems like tons of websites use images as links.
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2018-01-09T01:38:13Z aeth: rpg: Usually they use SVGs or fonts these days afaik
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2018-01-09T01:39:08Z aeth: Technically images, but a very different appearance
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2018-01-09T02:55:02Z jmercouris: hello everyone
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2018-01-09T04:07:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-09T04:07:53Z jmercouris: good morning!!
2018-01-09T04:08:09Z jmercouris: are you on CET?
2018-01-09T04:08:25Z beach: UTC+1
2018-01-09T04:09:10Z jmercouris: Wow, you wake up super early
2018-01-09T04:09:25Z beach: It's a genetic defect in my family.
2018-01-09T04:09:44Z beach: I had some comments for you yesterday.  You may want to check the logs.
2018-01-09T04:09:59Z jmercouris: Ah okay, looking now
2018-01-09T04:11:13Z jmercouris: Ah, indeed :input should not be a macro
2018-01-09T04:11:23Z jmercouris: I was thinking of doing some CPS style input
2018-01-09T04:11:51Z jmercouris: so basically when one sets a minibuffer binding you can just point to a function, and that function will be responsible for invoking the minibuffer
2018-01-09T04:12:12Z jmercouris: I didn't know about the three semicolons, I was just going off something I googled, but I can change that
2018-01-09T04:12:32Z jmercouris: Finally, what do you mean by "It is a very bad idea to define functions or macros with names in the keyword package."?
2018-01-09T04:14:59Z beach: Like (defmacro :input ...)
2018-01-09T04:15:19Z beach: :input is the name of the macro, and it is a symbol in the keyword package.
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2018-01-09T04:19:13Z jmercouris: is a symbol treated differently because it starts with a colon?
2018-01-09T04:19:30Z jmercouris: I guess that makes sense
2018-01-09T04:20:23Z jmercouris: I will be removing this macro anyway, as I think 1. it can be replaced with a function as you said, and 2. I will rewrite most functions to use CPS style so something like (with-minibuffer-input ((valuex (read-from-minibuffer))) (print valuex))
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2018-01-09T04:21:41Z beach: When the reader sees a token that starts with a colon, it creates a symbol in the keyword package.
2018-01-09T04:22:51Z beach: That is how you can often pass keyword arguments to functions without using package prefixes.
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2018-01-09T04:23:17Z jmercouris: Ah, okay that makes sense
2018-01-09T04:23:32Z jmercouris: so is the keyword package literally called "keyword"?
2018-01-09T04:23:40Z beach: clhs keyword
2018-01-09T04:23:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm
2018-01-09T04:24:19Z jmercouris: okay I see, thank you for the explanation
2018-01-09T04:24:28Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-09T04:25:04Z beach: And the reason it is a very bad idea to create functions and macros with such names is that it could then clash with other systems doing the same.
2018-01-09T04:25:28Z jmercouris: True, or what if I wanted to use a kwarg :input for example, or if anyone else is
2018-01-09T04:25:32Z beach: Imagine that I want to use your browser at the same time as some editor that also creates a macro named :input, then I can't use both.
2018-01-09T04:25:36Z jmercouris: it would possibly do really weird things and I would have no idea
2018-01-09T04:26:04Z jmercouris: because it would put them in the same package
2018-01-09T04:26:15Z beach: And that's why you stick to your own packages.
2018-01-09T04:26:18Z pierpa: (package-name (symbol-package :foo)) ==> "KEYWORD"
2018-01-09T04:26:19Z jmercouris: whereas if I do not include the colon, they will be in my own package
2018-01-09T04:26:25Z jmercouris: Right
2018-01-09T04:27:06Z jmercouris: Yeah, I am starting to get that
2018-01-09T04:27:40Z jmercouris: Two days ago when writing a macro I was hitting my head against the keyboard for 15 mintues and then I realized I was in the wrong package, and that's why my macro wasn't expanding, so I'll definitely not be forgetting that macros belong to packages anytime soon :D
2018-01-09T04:28:09Z pierpa:  :foo is just a shorthand for keyword:foo
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2018-01-09T05:13:56Z asarch: One very stupid question about CLOSURES. If I have (I will use square brackets just for annotations): (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0))[1] (setf count [2] (1+ count[3])))))
2018-01-09T05:14:38Z asarch: If this was C++ code, then: [1] (let ((let::count 0)), [2] (setf set::count, [3] What count is that?
2018-01-09T05:15:07Z asarch: let::count or setf::count?
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2018-01-09T05:16:00Z asarch: The clean code would be: (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) (setf count (1+ count)))))
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2018-01-09T05:16:26Z pillton: Firstly, closures are functions which close over the lexical environment. Your question has nothing to do with functions.
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2018-01-09T05:17:04Z asarch: Sorry, a typo: (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda() (setf count (1+ count)))))
2018-01-09T05:17:41Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-09T05:17:44Z asarch takes notes...
2018-01-09T05:18:45Z madpengu: pillton: What?
2018-01-09T05:18:57Z asarch: Does it mean that a closed lexical scope "ignores" definition from outside?
2018-01-09T05:19:43Z madpengu: pillton: "closures are functions... your question [about closures] has nothing to do with functions"? How?
2018-01-09T05:20:26Z pillton: clhs lexical closure
2018-01-09T05:20:27Z asarch: From PCL: "However, Common Lisp's lexical variables are lexical variables with a twist, at least compared to the original Algol model."
2018-01-09T05:20:37Z pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#lexical_closure
2018-01-09T05:21:07Z asarch: "For instance, you can capture the closure created by the previous expression in a global variable like this..."
2018-01-09T05:21:56Z jmercouris: asarch: A closure is just a function + environment persisted to something
2018-01-09T05:22:06Z asarch: Gotcha!
2018-01-09T05:22:17Z madpengu: asarch: It doesn't ignores the outside scope, only that it "captures" that current ones. In `(let ((count 0)) #'(lambda() (setf count (1+ count))))` the lambda closes over the count.
2018-01-09T05:22:25Z jmercouris: asarch: So I can for example say (lambda () *some-global-var*) and *some-global-var* will be "remembered" by the closure
2018-01-09T05:22:49Z madpengu: So when it is referenced outside the scope of `let`, it still knows about count.
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2018-01-09T05:23:15Z jmercouris: that is the environment part, it is saving the environment somehow
2018-01-09T05:23:20Z asarch: If this was C, a closure would be a way to "export" variables outside the scope, right?
2018-01-09T05:23:23Z madpengu: jmercouris: global var is global, closure is about lexical scope.
2018-01-09T05:23:31Z jmercouris: madpengu: Sure, it's just an example
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2018-01-09T05:23:52Z pillton: A closure is a function. Look at the definition in the CLHS.
2018-01-09T05:23:52Z jmercouris: asarch: For example, if I understand you correctly, yes
2018-01-09T05:23:57Z beach: asarch: That's a very strange way of putting it.
2018-01-09T05:24:02Z jmercouris: A closure is not JUST a function
2018-01-09T05:24:07Z jmercouris: it is a function + some state
2018-01-09T05:24:14Z madpengu: jmercouris: Think of this `(defparameter *MyClosure* (let ((insideOfLet 0)) #'(lambda() (setf insideOfLet (1+ insideOfLet)))))`.
2018-01-09T05:24:24Z jmercouris: madpengu: yes, I see the mistake
2018-01-09T05:24:35Z madpengu: There, MyClosure is a reference to the closure which captures the insideOfLet variable.
2018-01-09T05:24:38Z beach: madpengu: What on earth is that?
2018-01-09T05:24:51Z madpengu: beach: Sorry, my-closure.
2018-01-09T05:24:56Z madpengu: and inside-of-let.
2018-01-09T05:24:59Z madpengu: But you get the idea ;)
2018-01-09T05:25:01Z beach: madpengu: Your code does reflect ANY established style.
2018-01-09T05:25:14Z madpengu: I know. Thus the apology.
2018-01-09T05:25:17Z beach: madpengu: If you are going to show code, then at least make an effort.
2018-01-09T05:25:37Z madpengu: `(defparameter *my-closure* (let ((inside-of-let 0)) #'(lambda() (setf inside-of-let (1+ inside-of-let)))))`
2018-01-09T05:25:48Z madpengu: beach: Do you understand what an apology is?
2018-01-09T05:25:53Z beach: madpengu: Put a space between lambda and (
2018-01-09T05:26:00Z beach: madpengu: Yes, I do.
2018-01-09T05:26:26Z madpengu: `(defparameter *my-closure* (let ((inside-of-let 0)) #'(lambda () (setf inside-of-let (1+ inside-of-let)))))`
2018-01-09T05:26:32Z asarch: In C++: class point {public: void set_x() {int foo = 5;}}; int main() {point p; int x = 1 + p.foo; return 0} ?
2018-01-09T05:26:33Z madpengu: Happy?
2018-01-09T05:26:42Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-09T05:26:47Z madpengu: Cool.
2018-01-09T05:26:55Z beach: asarch: It is best to understand the code without referring to other languages.
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2018-01-09T05:27:56Z madpengu: beach: Why? Any language that helps you understand a concept is helpful, whatever it is Engrish or Stroustrup++
2018-01-09T05:28:29Z beach: asarch: In your original code, all three occurrences of COUNT refer to the same variable.
2018-01-09T05:28:31Z asarch: I know, I know. But since the language model the things you can understand...
2018-01-09T05:28:51Z asarch: I mean, referring to other languages
2018-01-09T05:28:56Z asarch: Are the same?
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2018-01-09T05:29:39Z beach: Lexical closures do not exist in C, and (unless they added them recently) not in C++ either, so it is hard to understand Common Lisp by using those languages as examples.
2018-01-09T05:29:49Z madpengu: They're added recently.
2018-01-09T05:29:55Z madpengu: C++14, I think.
2018-01-09T05:30:16Z asarch: C++14 was the reason I ran away from C++ :-P
2018-01-09T05:30:35Z madpengu: C++14 has lots of nice stuff that you can do FP.
2018-01-09T05:30:47Z beach: It would be very hard to have full lexical closures in a language without garbage collection.
2018-01-09T05:30:57Z madpengu: Why run away? I am considering going back to C++ because of C++17
2018-01-09T05:30:58Z asarch: Why?
2018-01-09T05:31:15Z asarch: I mean, why without garbage collection?
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2018-01-09T05:31:40Z jmercouris: How would you decrease the reference count of something in a closure?
2018-01-09T05:32:01Z jmercouris: or rather, how would you know you can release something without a reference count
2018-01-09T05:32:07Z beach: asarch: Because in the general case, the environment that contains the closed-over variable(s) would have to be allocated on the heap.
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2018-01-09T05:32:36Z beach: asarch: But perhaps it is only allowed to have closures with dynamic extent.
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2018-01-09T05:33:01Z beach: If so they are not the "full closures" I was referring to.
2018-01-09T05:33:12Z madpengu: asarch: http://wiki.c2.com/?LexicalClosure
2018-01-09T05:33:12Z SaganMan: Hello
2018-01-09T05:33:17Z madpengu: Hi SaganMan
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2018-01-09T05:33:58Z SaganMan: hello madpengu
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2018-01-09T05:35:17Z madpengu: beach: It is lambda closures, so they don't really escape the current scope and so not true "lexical closures" per se.
2018-01-09T05:35:34Z madpengu: "current scope" is probably the wrong term.
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2018-01-09T05:35:45Z beach: Yes it is.
2018-01-09T05:35:53Z beach: "Extent" is the term.
2018-01-09T05:36:00Z beach: So they have dynamic extent.
2018-01-09T05:36:06Z madpengu: Right, Extent in terms of stack?
2018-01-09T05:36:15Z beach: Sort of.
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2018-01-09T05:36:26Z beach: That is, they disappear when the current function invocation exists.
2018-01-09T05:37:00Z beach: clhs glossary/extent
2018-01-09T05:37:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#extent
2018-01-09T05:37:56Z asarch: Wow! I would like to have a hard-copy of the glossary
2018-01-09T05:38:14Z madpengu: asarch: C-p
2018-01-09T05:38:21Z pillton: The hyperspec is downloadable from Lispworks.
2018-01-09T05:38:27Z pillton: Oh a hard copy.
2018-01-09T05:38:30Z beach: So, I see a picture here.  C++ programmers are told that they have closures, and they are told that they have garbage collection.  That way, they think they have the full power of a language such as Common Lisp.  I feel sorry for them.
2018-01-09T05:38:58Z madpengu: beach: lol. You're a funny person.
2018-01-09T05:39:42Z aeth: C++ programmers *do* have the full power of Common Lisp, or close to it.
2018-01-09T05:39:52Z aeth: I'm not sure if Clasp is the full power of Common Lisp yet.
2018-01-09T05:40:14Z asarch: Assembly programmers actually :-P
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2018-01-09T05:40:58Z aeth: Proof that you can do everything CL can do in C++: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
2018-01-09T05:41:01Z aeth: :-p
2018-01-09T05:41:20Z madpengu: aeth: You don't even need that proof. Just show that C++ is turning complete.
2018-01-09T05:41:25Z pillton: aeth: That isn't true. You can't write to a file at compile time.
2018-01-09T05:41:41Z madpengu: That is all you need to have the full power of a computer, and the full power of what can be done with any language that exists and ever will...
2018-01-09T05:42:21Z aeth: madpengu: But Clasp gives a good estimate about how many LoC it actually takes.
2018-01-09T05:42:45Z madpengu: All Heil Alan Turing.
2018-01-09T05:42:51Z asarch: I wonder if you could apply one of the pattern designs from CLOS to Assembly...
2018-01-09T05:43:03Z madpengu: When we are talking about full power, LoC is out of question ;)
2018-01-09T05:43:47Z beach: madpengu: You are new here, right?
2018-01-09T05:43:53Z madpengu: asarch: I think one of the big downsides of lisp and relatives are that they're disjoint from reality.
2018-01-09T05:44:14Z madpengu: The way you reason about problems in lisp is not even remotely similar to what is going on in a modern cpu.
2018-01-09T05:44:46Z madpengu: beach: I am always new, where ever I am, for that I am not a pond water fish, my friend.
2018-01-09T05:45:11Z aeth: madpengu: I reason about problems in Lisp by observing the output of (disassemble #'some-function)
2018-01-09T05:45:52Z madpengu: aeth: You actually do not, you observe the output to reason about how your code works, which only reinforces my point.
2018-01-09T05:46:14Z madpengu: There is a subtle difference, but a very important one nonetheless.
2018-01-09T05:46:19Z jasom: madpengu: this is true of C and C++ as well
2018-01-09T05:46:32Z madpengu: jasom: C++, perhaps, C? Not so much.
2018-01-09T05:47:00Z jasom: madpengu: I've worked on optimizing C compilers, this is totally true
2018-01-09T05:47:19Z madpengu: jasom: I see your point, now compare that to lisp.
2018-01-09T05:47:28Z aeth: madpengu: But I have the luxury of disassembling a function and if it's clearly wrong, I can use one of a dozen equivalent ways of writing it. Alternatively, disassembly is a good way to see if equivalent ways of writing something truly are equivalent.
2018-01-09T05:48:17Z madpengu: The idea that you reason about differently in a higher abstraction is given. C is a different abstraction than ASM (though, I always C as just a glorified crss-platform ASM) so there is ought to be a difference in how you think about a problem.
2018-01-09T05:48:25Z madpengu: But, but, the logic is mostly the same.
2018-01-09T05:48:39Z madpengu: Though when you talk lisp, you're not even talking about the same instructions most of the time.
2018-01-09T05:48:49Z madpengu: It is a whole another cake, a whole another level.
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2018-01-09T05:49:23Z aeth: madpengu: The problem with C is that the world has moved on from PDP-7 assembly.
2018-01-09T05:49:42Z aeth: Its assumption about how CPUs work are false.
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2018-01-09T05:49:57Z madpengu: aeth: Has it though? The answer is in the R of RISC.
2018-01-09T05:50:05Z madpengu: But yeah, microcode and shit, I get it.
2018-01-09T05:50:38Z aeth: Most software has to deal with this machine: http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64.html
2018-01-09T05:51:05Z jasom: madpengu: assembly language can support multiple return values; arithmetic operations set cpu flags that are not accessible from C; most assemblies have at least one way of dealing with signed arithmetic overflows ...
2018-01-09T05:51:43Z madpengu: jasom: Just because you can't reason in C the way you do in ASM doesn't mean that your reason in C isn't mostly directly translated to ASM.
2018-01-09T05:51:55Z madpengu: That is not true of lisp, IMNSHO.
2018-01-09T05:52:38Z jasom: madpengu: I could show you dozens of examples of C code turning into something very different from what your reasoning would expect
2018-01-09T05:52:39Z aeth: madpengu: C isn't a good fit for parallel things.
2018-01-09T05:52:54Z aeth: madpengu: Our modern machines are parallel in several different ways.
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2018-01-09T05:54:25Z madpengu: I am not sure if I am terrible at making my point or what is going on.
2018-01-09T05:54:54Z borei: Hi all. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !
2018-01-09T05:54:57Z madpengu: But the abstraction between Lisp and CPU is orders of magnitude thicker than C and many C-like languages.
2018-01-09T05:55:01Z jasom: madpengu: consider a 32-bit machine: int wordFromByte(uint8_t x[4]) { return x[0] <<24 | x[1] << 16 | x[2]<< 8 | x[3]; }
2018-01-09T05:55:07Z madpengu: borei: Happy New Year and Berry Christmas.
2018-01-09T05:55:11Z jasom: madpengu: that example has an undefined result on a 32-bit machine
2018-01-09T05:55:32Z madpengu: jasom: Okay, and?
2018-01-09T05:56:09Z aeth: madpengu: Common Lisp's iterations are, for the most part, ultimately just gotos contained within a tagbody.
2018-01-09T05:56:14Z jasom: madpengu: how is that a clean mapping to assembly, where it would have a defined result for the straightforward translation to assembly (and not only defined, but the same on all architectures)
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2018-01-09T05:56:35Z borei: seem like setf method is more complecated then i thought initially, and now seems like i missed track to get understanding how does it work
2018-01-09T05:56:54Z madpengu: jasom: But isn't that undefined by standard? If you don't speak proper C, don't expect proper ASM ;)
2018-01-09T05:57:17Z aeth: madpengu: A lot of the complexity in CL are macros over simple things
2018-01-09T05:57:39Z borei: i have two classes generic-matrix and matrix-r, first class is parent for the second one
2018-01-09T05:57:40Z madpengu: Maybe at this point I can't see past the lisp abstraction, but so far, it feels thick, maybe it has to do with it being a managed env.
2018-01-09T05:57:50Z aeth: An optimized pure FP language or a JIT scripting language has a lot more magic abstraction going on
2018-01-09T05:57:58Z borei: i've the following generic function
2018-01-09T05:58:08Z borei: (defgeneric element(matrix i j)
2018-01-09T05:58:08Z borei:   (:documentation "Provides access to matrix element, where i - row, j - column"))
2018-01-09T05:58:12Z borei: and method
2018-01-09T05:58:19Z jmercouris: +1 on what jasom says, C doesn't compile in the way you IMAGINE it would, modern day optimizations are intense
2018-01-09T05:58:27Z borei: (defmethod element((matrix matrix-r) i j)
2018-01-09T05:58:27Z borei:   (aref (elements matrix) (+ j (* i (cols matrix)))))
2018-01-09T05:58:32Z madpengu: aeth: So yeah, I think that is it, Lisp feels very Scripty because it is Managed.
2018-01-09T05:58:36Z borei: works fine
2018-01-09T05:59:10Z jasom: on several compilers array-referenced loops are faster than pointer-referenced loops because the optimizaer has an easier time of turning it into a decrementer loop
2018-01-09T05:59:19Z jmercouris: borei: Please use a paste service, I'm having trouble reading everything
2018-01-09T05:59:19Z madpengu: jmercouris: Optimizations still do what you expect it to do, maybe in a more efficient way, with lisp, I have no freaking idea what CPU is going to do. Maybe it is just me, maybe it is lisp.
2018-01-09T05:59:32Z jasom: despite the fact that the naive translation of the pointer-referenced loop is faster
2018-01-09T05:59:41Z borei: now i need to do setf for elements (not spamming here) - https://pastebin.com/qE26sKMR
2018-01-09T05:59:42Z jmercouris: madpengu: That's not true, optimizations do NOT do what you'd expect them to do
2018-01-09T05:59:44Z borei: yep yep
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2018-01-09T05:59:46Z rme: It doesn't sound to me like you know CL well enough to make such a judgement or to develop such intuitions.
2018-01-09T06:00:21Z borei: that one doesn't work, and i have some problem with understandig where i'm wrong
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2018-01-09T06:00:28Z madpengu: jmercouris: What do you mean? if optimizations doesn't do what I expect them to do, then the compiler is broken.
2018-01-09T06:00:34Z aeth: madpengu: I'm more confident in what CL is going to do than what an optimized AOT or JIT compiler is going to do because of how sophisticated some of the optimizations in some languages can get.
2018-01-09T06:00:41Z jasom: madpengu: or your knowledge of C is incomplete
2018-01-09T06:00:47Z jmercouris: madpengu: I mean that they are so complex that you will have trouble understanding them completely and all of their behavior
2018-01-09T06:00:57Z madpengu: You guys seems to know a lot about what I know.
2018-01-09T06:01:01Z rme: But why am I responding to IRC provocateurs, anyway?
2018-01-09T06:01:04Z rme: Good night.
2018-01-09T06:01:14Z jmercouris: Goodnight!
2018-01-09T06:01:17Z aeth: madpengu: It's actually kind of a bad thing that CLs aren't automagically optimizing everything. Naive CL is going to be slow, and fast CL is probably going to look a lot like C, unless you have a lot of custom macros to abstract.
2018-01-09T06:01:22Z madpengu: rme: sleep tight.
2018-01-09T06:01:58Z beach: borei: The new value is always the first parameter.
2018-01-09T06:02:05Z jmercouris: madpengu: If you claim to be the individual that understands all C compiler optimizations, then you are the first I have ever heard of
2018-01-09T06:02:36Z beach: borei: As in (defgeneric (setf element) (new-value matrix i j))
2018-01-09T06:02:38Z madpengu: aeth: "fast CL is going to look a lot like C". Yes, yes, Brilliant.
2018-01-09T06:02:53Z jmercouris: Anyways, before making an argument we have to establish some axioms, I don't agree that it is an advantage to understand the underlying assembly
2018-01-09T06:03:00Z borei: hi beach:
2018-01-09T06:03:18Z aeth: madpengu: Except C is going to have optimizations that do crazy things and CL that looks a lot like C is going to run like C without all of those crazy optimizations turned on
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2018-01-09T06:03:39Z madpengu: jmercouris: No one claimed that. In fact, if you require an understanding of the mechanics of an abstraction, it is a very bad abstraction.
2018-01-09T06:03:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-01-09T06:03:48Z aeth: SBCL is the fastest CL implementation and I haven't had a WTF moment yet in reading the disassembly.
2018-01-09T06:03:56Z madpengu: jmercouris: But none the less, not being able to reason about the mechanics of an abstraction also makes it hard to grok.
2018-01-09T06:04:10Z jasom: madpengu: I am, in fact, assuming I know more about C than you; it's possible I'm wrong...
2018-01-09T06:04:26Z madpengu: jasom: We will never know.
2018-01-09T06:04:33Z borei: wow that was simple error
2018-01-09T06:04:34Z jmercouris: jasom: Did you see my messages earlier btw?
2018-01-09T06:04:37Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2018-01-09T06:04:37Z borei: it works !
2018-01-09T06:04:43Z beach: Great!
2018-01-09T06:04:44Z jmercouris: borei: Yay :)
2018-01-09T06:04:52Z jasom: jmercouris: about the alpha?
2018-01-09T06:04:58Z jmercouris: jasom: Yep
2018-01-09T06:05:07Z jasom: jmercouris: congrats
2018-01-09T06:05:09Z jmercouris: tomorrow I'll make a thread on /r/programming with new screenshots etc
2018-01-09T06:05:16Z madpengu: I also don't like how every conversation about lisp or most everything about here is a schlong weaving and measuring contest. lisp is great, but it is not the end of it all, people. Chill.
2018-01-09T06:05:19Z jmercouris: jasom: Thank you!
2018-01-09T06:05:43Z jmercouris: jasom: it doesn't persist sessions in between open/close, but it's definitely "usable" whatever that means :D
2018-01-09T06:06:25Z jasom: madpengu: it's not the end of it all.  However, that doesn't mean that I agree that the mapping from C to assembly is easy to understand...
2018-01-09T06:06:43Z madpengu: jasom: It is not easier in contrast to lisp? seriously?
2018-01-09T06:06:50Z madpengu: It is not easy in contrast to any managed language?
2018-01-09T06:06:52Z madpengu: Yeah?
2018-01-09T06:06:57Z madpengu: No.
2018-01-09T06:07:03Z madpengu: I am going to just be mad now.
2018-01-09T06:07:10Z madpengu: Oh wait... I am already mad, but you get the idea.
2018-01-09T06:07:15Z borei: btw, i got some first small result with my LISP adventure - implemented multithreaded GLFW-based application (well it's hard to call applcation, but seems like im right direction :-) - sounds strange, some basic lisp aspects still a bit fuzzy.
2018-01-09T06:09:16Z jasom: madpengu: To a certain regard it is a binary question; IMO any significant code in C is non-trivial to reason about the mapping to assembly
2018-01-09T06:09:23Z aeth: madpengu: One thing I've noticed about IRC is that if you say something that someone thinks is incorrect, people will line up to try to correct that statement.
2018-01-09T06:10:23Z aeth: I don't think that's unique to #lisp
2018-01-09T06:11:07Z jmercouris: madpengu: Don't be mad, it's not worth it to be angry. Getting angry is like drinking posion to punish the person you are having a disagreement with
2018-01-09T06:11:32Z aeth: I agree, no reason to be mad.
2018-01-09T06:12:02Z jasom: There is a subset of C for which the mapping to assembly is quite clear, but the same is true of any lisp descended from cmucl
2018-01-09T06:12:24Z jmercouris: aka CCL
2018-01-09T06:12:42Z jasom: jmercouris: ccl is not in the cmucl tree; it comes from OpenMCL
2018-01-09T06:12:46Z jmercouris: Damnit
2018-01-09T06:13:01Z jmercouris: sorry for the misinformation :D
2018-01-09T06:13:09Z aeth: sbcl comes from cmucl
2018-01-09T06:13:36Z jmercouris: With that, I'm off, goodnight
2018-01-09T06:13:43Z aeth: as does scl, Scieneer Common Lisp, a commercial fork of cmucl
2018-01-09T06:14:04Z borei: hmm, seems like i have more questions
2018-01-09T06:15:08Z borei: if i have array of double-float, and im trying to assign integer value to one of the item - im getting error wrong type
2018-01-09T06:15:48Z jasom: borei: that is correct
2018-01-09T06:16:02Z borei: should i do explicit type conversion or there is something more elegant ?
2018-01-09T06:16:14Z jasom: borei: explicit type conversion (you can use float)
2018-01-09T06:16:16Z jasom: clhs float
2018-01-09T06:16:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm
2018-01-09T06:16:39Z jasom: e.g. (float x 1.0d0)
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2018-01-09T06:18:19Z borei: aha, ic
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2018-01-09T06:21:23Z asarch: Anyway. Thank you very much guys
2018-01-09T06:21:26Z asarch: Thank you :-)
2018-01-09T06:21:29Z asarch: See you later
2018-01-09T06:21:50Z asarch: Viel Spaẞ! o/
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2018-01-09T11:45:51Z logicmoo: hrrm #'PUTHASH should that be in SYSTEM or EXT ?
2018-01-09T11:47:37Z Xach: yes
2018-01-09T11:47:45Z beach: Heh!
2018-01-09T11:48:23Z beach: Is it just me, or have there been some strange discussions here lately?
2018-01-09T11:50:20Z Xach: They are complex, with imaginary components
2018-01-09T11:50:34Z beach: That explains everything.
2018-01-09T11:50:39Z makomo: does anyone know why (let ((*print-circle* t)) ...) doesn't work but setf-ing it before executing the body of the let does?
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2018-01-09T11:51:00Z beach: makomo: You are doing something wrong.
2018-01-09T11:51:06Z makomo: the example for *print-circle* in clhs also uses a let and it works
2018-01-09T11:51:31Z beach: makomo: Perhaps you are returning a circular structure and you expect it to be printed as if *print-circle* is true?
2018-01-09T11:51:37Z makomo: beach: indeed
2018-01-09T11:51:43Z makomo: oh
2018-01-09T11:51:45Z makomo: hah
2018-01-09T11:51:48Z makomo: that makes sense now
2018-01-09T11:51:54Z beach: makomo: By the time PRINT is called, your binding is undone.
2018-01-09T11:51:54Z makomo: thanks :-)
2018-01-09T11:51:59Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-09T11:51:59Z makomo: yeah
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2018-01-09T11:57:38Z logicmoo: i guess almost all impls use SYSTEM::PUTHASH for their setf expansions
2018-01-09T11:58:05Z logicmoo: setf expansion of GETHASH*
2018-01-09T11:58:13Z beach: logicmoo: There doesn't have to be an expansion of it.
2018-01-09T11:58:54Z Shinmera: Indeed, could just define a (setf gethash) function
2018-01-09T12:00:15Z logicmoo: ah, yeah
2018-01-09T12:00:19Z Shinmera: beach: It seems like the kinds of people and discussions going on in this channel come in waves and tides, which is why I sometimes give up on it and leave for some time.
2018-01-09T12:00:34Z beach: I completely understand you.
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2018-01-09T12:02:01Z logicmoo: it might better to just use /ignore on some people
2018-01-09T12:02:14Z logicmoo: (such as me)
2018-01-09T12:02:23Z Shinmera: I don't ignore on principle because it's not context sensitive and won't stop people from responding.
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2018-01-09T12:04:51Z beach: I have only used it once, and it was when someone explicitly asked to be ignored so that he or she could continue discussing commercial software in freenode without my complaining about it.
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2018-01-09T12:06:42Z beach: Actually, that's not true.  I have used it on some temporary spammers as well.
2018-01-09T12:07:07Z Shinmera: If I could ignore topics rather than people that'd be something else.
2018-01-09T12:07:40Z beach: That's a very good idea actually.
2018-01-09T12:07:49Z Shinmera: I don't think AI is quite there yet
2018-01-09T12:07:56Z beach: Not quite, no.
2018-01-09T12:08:09Z Shinmera: And even then such a tool sounds rather dangerous
2018-01-09T12:08:20Z Shinmera: I mean, facebook & co are already kinda doing it and the implications are scary
2018-01-09T12:08:28Z beach: Then we could ignore all topics such as "I wish the Common Lisp HyperSpec were different."
2018-01-09T12:09:03Z Shinmera: Or "common lisp is not popular because", "if people did X then...", "cl has to be popular", etc.
2018-01-09T12:09:16Z beach: Yes, yes, and yes! :)
2018-01-09T12:09:51Z _death: "lispers are..."
2018-01-09T12:10:01Z Shinmera: "the lisp community is"
2018-01-09T12:10:27Z beach: "is X a dialect of Lisp?"
2018-01-09T12:10:43Z Shinmera: And the old classic "why is #lisp only for common lisp?"
2018-01-09T12:11:16Z beach: What do you mean?  Its name is #lisp, I ought to be able to talk about ANY Lisp dialect here.
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2018-01-09T12:12:12Z Shinmera: I fear if we keep going with this we'll turn #lisp into a ghost town :^)
2018-01-09T12:12:22Z beach: OK, let's quit.
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2018-01-09T12:12:53Z Shinmera: I was trying to make a joke about these being the only discussions here, but yeah, enough grumpiness.
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2018-01-09T12:16:08Z jackdaniel: one could wonder, if some (stupid) question is repeated over and over again by independent people could it mean, maybe it is not that stupid but rather there is some environmental misclue
2018-01-09T12:17:14Z beach: I personally think there are very few truly stupid questions.
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2018-01-09T12:19:47Z dim: IMO it's mainly people who learn better by talking and don't bother reading docs and trying things out, and come directly here to chat about it, and hopefully build a reasonable mental model of lisp before they try things out
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2018-01-09T12:20:27Z dim: so of course there's a lot of repetition, tutoring new beginners again and again... an eternal september of sorts?
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2018-01-09T12:21:09Z Xach: I don't mind helping people through that sort of thing.
2018-01-09T12:21:18Z Xach: Eternally.
2018-01-09T12:21:33Z beach: Me neither, as long as they show a willingness to learn and progress.
2018-01-09T12:21:50Z Xach: I do hate "This is dumb and it shouldn't be this way" and "I'm just trying to finish a class, give me the answers"
2018-01-09T12:21:51Z dim: exactly, me neither, just not every day... (and I don't have proper answers that often anyway) ;-)
2018-01-09T12:23:07Z dim: some 15 years ago I would complete a friend's lisp assignements (he was sharing them on IRC) using librep (the kind-of lisp implementation for sawmill, then sawfish), it was fun times
2018-01-09T12:23:25Z dim: I didn't share the answers, mind you, only some approaches
2018-01-09T12:23:36Z Xach: librep was one of my gateways to CL
2018-01-09T12:23:45Z dim: http://librep.sourceforge.net/ still exists, it seems
2018-01-09T12:25:41Z makomo: i, for one, appreciate that you guys answer (nooby) questions over and over again because even though i have no problem reading formal references/docs, sometimes an actual dialogue with another human being helps in clarifying stuff
2018-01-09T12:26:31Z logicmoo: for myself the very advanced concepts are easy.. but very basic ones are not example of a basic one i have right now i do not think i found covered in books.. "would it be better to define symbols say in My-IMPL-SYS:*COMMANDLINE-ARGS* and have them reexported to EXT"
2018-01-09T12:27:03Z Xach: Perhaps because they don't matter very much.
2018-01-09T12:27:06Z logicmoo: (i mean to say it might not be that simple of a question on but i think it is simple that if i have to ask.. then i really dont need to know)
2018-01-09T12:27:12Z Xach: Just pick one and do it, change it later if it sucks.
2018-01-09T12:27:53Z makomo: don't get trapped in analysis paralysis :D
2018-01-09T12:28:02Z logicmoo: i think that is the problem with most of my questions over the years
2018-01-09T12:28:38Z logicmoo: i am always using irc to avoid/skip out of analysis paralysis
2018-01-09T12:28:43Z makomo: i think it's one of the fundamental problems of programming
2018-01-09T12:30:32Z dim: also CL provides so many ways to do things, sometimes it's hard to guess if you're going to be stuck because of a simple choice
2018-01-09T12:30:37Z makomo: people should be taught early to recognize such situations and how to deal with them
2018-01-09T12:30:58Z dim: I think Xach summary is good: try it and see
2018-01-09T12:30:59Z _death: (random-elt alternatives)
2018-01-09T12:31:16Z _death: for more advanced use, see screamer
2018-01-09T12:31:23Z dim: it's not always very costly to change your mind
2018-01-09T12:31:39Z Xach: screamer!
2018-01-09T12:31:42Z makomo: dim: i agree, that's usually what should be done. just go with it, don't think, do it.
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2018-01-09T12:34:21Z logicmoo: ok1.. me makes a package called "SYSEXT" and nicknames it SYSTEM and EXTENSIONS .. while i am compiling all of ECL's ABCL's, and CLISP, and GCL systems to get a big ball of non interpreted functions
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2018-01-09T12:35:54Z logicmoo: afterwards I will probly just put it all into system, then see what most of them vote belongs in EXTENSIONS
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2018-01-09T12:38:03Z logicmoo: so far each lisp, supplies a different 70% (from the others) that ends up being ideal in my system
2018-01-09T12:41:50Z _death: yay for screamer https://gist.github.com/death/54d5019684e0fe71a9fd9c8933f1fc92
2018-01-09T12:42:28Z logicmoo: the hardest part in all of this is allowing myself is when i have to give up one or more of an individual well thought patterns by an impl
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2018-01-09T12:43:51Z logicmoo: some define  (setf gethash)  others never do
2018-01-09T12:44:01Z jackdaniel: I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream
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2018-01-09T12:50:10Z logicmoo: i have to say .. so far ECL is my favorite :)
2018-01-09T12:52:45Z otwieracz: What's the proper way of sending file over REST with Clack/ningle?
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2018-01-09T12:55:01Z otwieracz: Ok, it handles #P properly. :)
2018-01-09T12:57:49Z antoszka: otwieracz: can you paste a snippet of how you've actually done it?
2018-01-09T12:59:48Z otwieracz: antoszka: ningle handles PATHNAME correctly. So when your route returns PATHNAME, then instead of somehow-sending-it it streams contents of the destination.
2018-01-09T13:00:00Z antoszka: ok
2018-01-09T13:00:22Z otwieracz: (or 404)
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2018-01-09T13:29:55Z Xach:  /win 3
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2018-01-09T13:34:23Z JuanDaugherty: hmm?
2018-01-09T13:34:49Z JuanDaugherty: (assume wrong window)
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2018-01-09T13:43:48Z gtuser: leading space
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2018-01-09T13:44:52Z gtuser: in #python, that's a syntax error
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2018-01-09T14:49:17Z kami: Hello
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2018-01-09T14:50:13Z warweasle: kami: Hi
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2018-01-09T14:55:47Z crsc: hi
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2018-01-09T14:58:01Z beach: Hello crsc.
2018-01-09T14:58:06Z phoe: #' car
2018-01-09T14:58:18Z phoe: I was slightly surprised that this works
2018-01-09T14:58:50Z beach: The recursive call to READ skips whitespace.
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2018-01-09T15:00:03Z beach: crsc: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-01-09T15:00:30Z crsc: beach: Yes, I'm new here and new to Common Lisp.
2018-01-09T15:00:40Z beach: Welcome then.
2018-01-09T15:00:46Z crsc: Thank you. :-)
2018-01-09T15:01:08Z Bike: phoe: #' is basically defined to return `(function ,(read)), so yeah, whitespace is no prob.
2018-01-09T15:02:04Z phoe: Bike: yes, I was just, "wait, doesn't it... oh, oh, wait"
2018-01-09T15:02:24Z phoe: crsc: welcome! got your first day kit yet?
2018-01-09T15:03:16Z phoe: crsc: grab it here, https://portacle.github.io/
2018-01-09T15:03:34Z crsc: phoe: The second day for me. Okay, I'll take a look on that.
2018-01-09T15:05:05Z phoe: crsc: and here's the other part, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-01-09T15:05:25Z crsc: phoe: I use vi more than 20 years now and it's hard to learn emacs. But I'll give it a try.
2018-01-09T15:05:51Z phoe: crsc: oh, in this case
2018-01-09T15:05:51Z crsc: Yes, I know the second link. Thanks.
2018-01-09T15:06:17Z phoe: you might want to check https://spacemacs.org out since it's based on emacs's evil mode.
2018-01-09T15:06:30Z crsc: Thanks again.
2018-01-09T15:06:31Z phoe: or, alternatively, set up an environment with vim and slimv.
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2018-01-09T15:07:07Z phoe: portacle has an upside of being self-contained, but if you have 20 years of vim experience, then I'm pretty sure you can hack your own environment up pretty quickly. (:
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2018-01-09T15:07:59Z phoe: also, #lisp is a good place for Lisp questions but #clnoobs has been created specifically for CL learners.
2018-01-09T15:08:12Z crsc: Yeah, definitely. :-)
2018-01-09T15:09:25Z Shinmera: I mean you can install evil to Portacle easy enough
2018-01-09T15:10:13Z warweasle: I'm still surprised CL doesn't have an editor written in CL.
2018-01-09T15:10:22Z Shinmera: It does
2018-01-09T15:10:26Z Shinmera: Multiple ones, even
2018-01-09T15:10:37Z warweasle: Shinmera: ?
2018-01-09T15:10:38Z Shinmera: Problem is they're all unfinished and kinda suck compared to Emacs.
2018-01-09T15:10:54Z Shinmera: warweasle: See Hemlock, Climacs, etc.
2018-01-09T15:11:03Z warweasle: Oh. Right, even I tried writing one. In 3D!
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2018-01-09T15:15:13Z Xach: I liked Hemlock.
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2018-01-09T15:15:37Z Xach: Uncanny valley was a problem for me though.
2018-01-09T15:16:13Z Bike: i'm hoping this means hemlock has a "clippy" that's a _nearly_ photorealistic human
2018-01-09T15:16:45Z Xach: More like it's close enough to emacs that the little differences are really distracting and offputting.
2018-01-09T15:17:03Z Xach: also a problem: crashing
2018-01-09T15:17:11Z Xach: haven't tried again in many years, though
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2018-01-09T15:22:28Z jdz: More users would definitely have helped with ironing out the crashes.
2018-01-09T15:22:41Z jdz: What we have here is a chicken and egg problem.
2018-01-09T15:23:48Z warweasle: I wanted a mixture of blender and emacs. It was too large a project for one person.
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2018-01-09T15:24:36Z warweasle: Too large for me anyway.
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2018-01-09T15:25:46Z jdz: Too many yaks to shave.
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2018-01-09T15:32:56Z makomo: crsc: i can also recommend spacemacs, it's what i'm using :-)
2018-01-09T15:33:40Z crsc: makomo: Yes it looks very fine. I'll give it a try.
2018-01-09T15:33:46Z makomo: are there any other CL channels apart from #lisp, #lispgames and #clnoobs?
2018-01-09T15:34:36Z pjb: makomo: why don't you read cliki?
2018-01-09T15:34:40Z pjb: http://cliki.net/IRC
2018-01-09T15:34:45Z beach: makomo: #clasp is about the Clasp implementation of Common Lisp and #sbcl about SBCL.
2018-01-09T15:35:02Z beach: makomo: #clim is about the Common Lisp Interface Manager.
2018-01-09T15:35:04Z makomo: beach: i've been in #clasp since i've been in #lisp. in fact, it's what drove me to start getting into CL more :-)
2018-01-09T15:35:22Z makomo: i saw drmeister's talk on youtube once and was amazed
2018-01-09T15:35:39Z makomo: since i come from C++ and got intrigued by lisp, the combination seemed awesome to me
2018-01-09T15:35:40Z beach: I see.
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2018-01-09T15:36:11Z makomo: it's the same kind of feeling i got when i first found spacemacs i think
2018-01-09T15:36:31Z makomo: i.e. the combination of emacs and vim is what's the best, not one or the other :-)
2018-01-09T15:36:51Z makomo: same with C++/Common Lisp, although they're pretty different languages so the comparison doesn't transfer that well
2018-01-09T15:37:44Z beach: The two have very different features and very different semantics.
2018-01-09T15:37:59Z crsc: makomo: https://github.com/l04m33/vlime This looks nice at a first view.
2018-01-09T15:38:22Z makomo: crsc: i was going to recommend that you look into those too, but forgot
2018-01-09T15:38:53Z crsc: :-)
2018-01-09T15:39:25Z makomo: however, spacemacs comes with full vim keybinds set up for you (which is why i started using it myself) ;-)
2018-01-09T15:39:57Z makomo: so it won't be that hard to learn at all
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2018-01-09T15:46:32Z sjl: crsc: I use vlime.  it's pretty good.
2018-01-09T15:47:28Z crsc: sjl: Nice to know. I'll test it later at home on my PC.
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2018-01-09T15:50:10Z flip214: sjl: did you hear anything from the vlime author since november?
2018-01-09T15:50:34Z sjl: flip214: no, but I haven't really been paying attention.  I've been traveling a lot over the holidays.
2018-01-09T15:50:36Z flip214: I had a few email exchanges re bugs and features, but got no replies for ~.52 months.
2018-01-09T15:50:44Z flip214: sorry, 2.5 months
2018-01-09T15:51:07Z flip214: I'm afraid that something bad happened... perhaps by drawing attention via the emails
2018-01-09T15:54:37Z sjl: I don't know.  I haven't heard anything
2018-01-09T15:54:50Z flip214: hmmm
2018-01-09T15:54:51Z flip214: that's bad
2018-01-09T15:55:28Z sjl: I didn't have a lot of communication with them though.  Never outside of GH issues.
2018-01-09T15:55:36Z sjl: So me not hearing anything isn't a very important data point.
2018-01-09T15:55:42Z flip214: the github contribution picture at https://github.com/l04m33 breaks off at the same time
2018-01-09T15:56:58Z sjl: It's possible they're just taking a break from computer work for a while.  I've done it for a couple of months at a time in the past.
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2018-01-09T16:48:30Z asarch: Good morning!
2018-01-09T16:48:45Z beach: Hello asarch.
2018-01-09T16:50:22Z asarch: I couldn't sleep last night, everything was in my head was CLOSURE.
2018-01-09T16:50:40Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2018-01-09T16:51:34Z asarch: But I finally could understand the concept. From the point of view of JavaScript: "A closure is created when a function inside another function gets stored outside the outers function's scope while retaining references to a variable from the outer function".
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2018-01-09T16:52:50Z asarch: So, if real life could apply closures, a closure would be like a photograph. Even when the people in the photograph have gone, you can "reference" to them by the picture
2018-01-09T16:54:19Z beach: Maybe you should write a book on programming, containing such explanations.
2018-01-09T16:54:20Z asarch: So, my next question is, why would you need closure? You could easy store the return value from a function in a variable
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2018-01-09T16:56:18Z beach: asarch: Consider this one: (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))
2018-01-09T16:56:38Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-09T16:56:46Z asarch gets his pen...
2018-01-09T16:56:47Z beach: asarch: When that form is evaluated, it returns a function of zero arguments, that, whenever called, returns a larger value.
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2018-01-09T16:57:30Z beach: So the function/closure contains state in its environment, in this case, the value of the variable X.
2018-01-09T16:59:31Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-09T16:59:49Z cgay: portacle...neat
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2018-01-09T17:00:16Z asarch: #<CLOSURE (LAMBDA ()) {1001E5424B}>
2018-01-09T17:00:37Z beach: asarch: Yes, now do (funcall <that closure>) several times.
2018-01-09T17:00:42Z pjb: asarch: closures are equivalent to objects.
2018-01-09T17:00:54Z pjb: asarch: this is the encapsulation of some data with some code.
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2018-01-09T17:01:12Z beach: If you are not using SLIME, start with (defparameter *f* (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))).
2018-01-09T17:01:22Z beach: asarch: Then do (funcall *f*) several times.
2018-01-09T17:01:24Z pjb: You can call the code, the code can process the data, but you cannot touch the data directly from outside.
2018-01-09T17:01:38Z asarch: I follow your advice and I use SBCL
2018-01-09T17:01:55Z Xach: Here is an involved use of closures
2018-01-09T17:01:57Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html
2018-01-09T17:02:00Z domovod: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans/blob/master/koans/functions.lsp
2018-01-09T17:02:12Z Xach reads about sbcl 1.0 and an iBook g4 and gets a misty feeling
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2018-01-09T17:03:05Z cgay reads russian ads on xach.livejournal.com
2018-01-09T17:03:21Z Xach: Sorry. I need to migrate all that stuff, but it feels like it might be a lot of work :(
2018-01-09T17:03:58Z pjb: asarch: so the CL operator FUNCTION is the basic operator to create objects in CL.
2018-01-09T17:04:15Z domovod: Russian advertising does not exist :-)
2018-01-09T17:04:24Z cgay: Actually it completely blocks the first paragraph or so. :(
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2018-01-09T17:05:05Z asarch: (dotimes (x 10) (funcall *f*))
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2018-01-09T17:05:55Z beach: asarch: *f* does not print anything, so you need to do something like (loop repeat 10 collect (funcall *f*))
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2018-01-09T17:08:37Z pjb: (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x))) is equivalent to (defclass anonymous ((x :initform 0 :accessor x))) (defmethod m ((o anonymous)) (incf (x o)))  (make-instance 'anonymous)
2018-01-09T17:09:00Z beach: I don't think that is going to help asarch at this point though.
2018-01-09T17:09:28Z pjb: How would (defparameter *f* (make-instance 'anonymous))    (dolist (i 10) (m *f*)) print anything?
2018-01-09T17:09:33Z asarch: Don't worry, I'm saving it for later
2018-01-09T17:09:52Z asarch takes notes of everything
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2018-01-09T17:11:44Z _death: could inspect the closure.. C-c I *f* RET
2018-01-09T17:14:10Z asarch: #<CLOSURE (LAMBDA ()) {1001E73B9B}>
2018-01-09T17:15:22Z beach: asarch: Did you try the LOOP I suggested?
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2018-01-09T17:16:13Z pjb: or: (let (r) (dotimes (i 10 r) (push (funcall *f*) r))) #| --> (10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1) |#
2018-01-09T17:17:39Z asarch: beach, of course!: (12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21)
2018-01-09T17:18:09Z beach: asarch: So you see that the closure contains state.  That's what closures are for.
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2018-01-09T17:30:00Z beach: asarch: Are you ready for another example?
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2018-01-09T17:30:34Z asarch: I see
2018-01-09T17:30:40Z asarch: Of course!
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2018-01-09T17:30:50Z asarch: I'm always ready
2018-01-09T17:31:26Z beach: OK, let's say we have some example list like (defparameter *l* (loop for i from 0 below 10 collect i))
2018-01-09T17:31:35Z beach: It contains integers from 0 to 9.
2018-01-09T17:32:13Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-09T17:32:26Z beach: We can use REMOVE-IF-NOT to keep only elements that correspond to a certain predicate.  For instance, we can say (remove-if-not #'oddp *l*)
2018-01-09T17:32:48Z beach: It will keep all the elements.
2018-01-09T17:32:51Z beach: that are odd.
2018-01-09T17:33:10Z beach: Now suppose we want to keep all the elements that are greater than (say) 3.
2018-01-09T17:33:38Z beach: We can do: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (> x 3)) *l*)
2018-01-09T17:33:41Z beach: Right?
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2018-01-09T17:34:50Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I just released the alpha GTK port of nEXT, if you like my project, please upvote it: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7p8nv0/next_browser_a_powerful_extensible_lisp_browser/
2018-01-09T17:34:55Z jmercouris: Thanks for your time!
2018-01-09T17:35:15Z asarch: Right
2018-01-09T17:35:19Z beach: asarch: But now we want to generalize this so that we want a function F that takes an integer N and a list L and that keeps all the elements of L that are greater than N.
2018-01-09T17:35:30Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-09T17:35:49Z beach: asarch: We can do it like this: (defun f (n l) (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (> x n)) l))
2018-01-09T17:36:19Z beach: asarch: So that (f 3 *l*) gives the same result as before.
2018-01-09T17:36:22Z beach: asarch: Right?
2018-01-09T17:37:16Z asarch: Right
2018-01-09T17:37:18Z beach: asarch: Here, (lambda (x) (> x n)) is a closure, because it refers to the lexical variable n in a surrounding function.
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2018-01-09T17:39:57Z asarch: I see
2018-01-09T17:40:09Z beach: asarch: Here we use the closure to refer to an implicit parameter.  The function that we pass to remove-if-not must take a single parameter, but we need two parameters, both the X that receives elements from the list and N which is what we passed to F.  The solution is to create a closure with a single parameter X that refers to a closed-over variable N.
2018-01-09T17:41:36Z asarch: Wow! That's why Lisp actually changes the way you do things
2018-01-09T17:41:38Z _death: furthermore you can create a predicate-building function.. (defun greater-than (n) (lambda (x) (> x n))) this makes it possible to write (remove-if-not (greater-than 3) list)
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2018-01-09T17:42:29Z asarch: In the chapter 3 of the PCL I see this way of do things
2018-01-09T17:42:59Z asarch: The way you generalize functions
2018-01-09T17:44:09Z phoe: (remove-if-not (curry #'< 3) list)
2018-01-09T17:44:27Z phoe: ;; that's the next step, after understanding closures
2018-01-09T17:44:36Z beach: asarch: As _death points out, with this style, you obtain a collection of very small, very general, functions that you can then compose arbitrarily.
2018-01-09T17:45:00Z _death: phoe: the next step would be (remove-if (complement (greater-than 3)) list) ;)
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2018-01-09T17:46:13Z beach: asarch: In a language without closures, you can't do this, because you would have to alter the signature (the number of parameters), and doing so would break the abstraction barriers, so the code is no longer modular.
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2018-01-09T17:46:47Z pjb: You can do it trivially in object oriented programming languages, trivially, but with a lot of boilerplate.
2018-01-09T17:47:24Z dlowe: sure, iirc, closures in java 8 creates an anonymous class with the free variables as stored members.
2018-01-09T17:47:36Z pjb: But then, given the above equivalence, "language without closures" excludes OOP languages.
2018-01-09T17:48:20Z asarch: Yeah, since this concept actually doesn't exist in other language, it would take you more more time to do simply things
2018-01-09T17:48:21Z _death: in the past a limited form of "closures" was supported ("downward funargs").. but nowadays there's usually no need to distinguish function from closure (yes, there are exceptions when talking about performance, serialization, etc.)
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2018-01-09T17:49:14Z makomo: jmercouris: very interesting project, nice! :-)
2018-01-09T17:49:54Z makomo: what would be a good way to capture the result of a cond clause's test-form?
2018-01-09T17:50:01Z makomo: something like the anaphoric "it"
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2018-01-09T17:50:11Z makomo: what's the usual way such a thing is done?
2018-01-09T17:50:35Z pjb: I use let.
2018-01-09T17:50:53Z dlowe: well, there's acond to answer your question directly
2018-01-09T17:51:11Z _death: makomo: an old idiom is ((setq the-result (the-test)) (use the-result))
2018-01-09T17:51:19Z pjb: (cond ((let ((x (predicate))) (when x (do-something x) t))) …
2018-01-09T17:51:21Z makomo: yeah, but it isn't part of the standard right :^(
2018-01-09T17:51:25Z dlowe: but I've used (let (foo) (cond ((> (setf foo (calculation)) 5) ...)))
2018-01-09T17:52:04Z makomo: pjb: oh, so you (ab)use the test-form to do the resulting computation
2018-01-09T17:52:10Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-09T17:52:17Z pjb: The alternative being to use setf.
2018-01-09T17:52:58Z makomo: i'll go with the setf i guess
2018-01-09T17:53:03Z jmercouris: makomo: Thank you!
2018-01-09T17:53:20Z jmercouris: makomo: It's been around a year of work, so not too long, but also not a trivial investment :D
2018-01-09T17:53:57Z phoe: to be absolutely honest
2018-01-09T17:54:02Z makomo: jmercouris: i've seen it a few weeks ago too but forgot you were the author. it was influenced by emacs i see, which is very neat
2018-01-09T17:54:12Z phoe: (let ((value (predicate))) (cond (predicate ...) ...))
2018-01-09T17:54:14Z phoe: is what I do
2018-01-09T17:54:14Z makomo: i was thinking of a general framework for building emacs-like applications from time to time
2018-01-09T17:54:23Z jmercouris: makomo: Yeah, I try not to bring all the baggage of emacs though, but trying to keep it close enough
2018-01-09T17:54:31Z phoe: it separates the actual computation from the branching, which seems cleaner and more beautiful to me.
2018-01-09T17:54:37Z phoe: uh
2018-01-09T17:54:37Z jmercouris: makomo: lol, this could be the new "electron" for emacs applications :D
2018-01-09T17:54:40Z jmercouris: ah that's terrible :D
2018-01-09T17:54:42Z phoe: (cond (value ...) ...) I mean
2018-01-09T17:54:52Z makomo: i.e. the standard "you have a minibuffer, you can run commands, you have keybinds and the lisp image of the process at your hands!"
2018-01-09T17:54:56Z makomo: jmercouris: haha, exactly! :D
2018-01-09T17:55:12Z beach: That is precisely what ESA does.
2018-01-09T17:55:27Z dlowe: phoe: what about when you want to do the computation only on one branch, and you don't really want to nest conditions
2018-01-09T17:55:28Z beach: ESA means Emacs-Style Application, and it's part of McCLIM.
2018-01-09T17:55:42Z makomo: beach: oh wow
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2018-01-09T17:56:58Z makomo: jmercouris: nEXT uses gtk from what i've seen?
2018-01-09T17:57:04Z makomo: and heard in this channel
2018-01-09T17:57:34Z dlowe: phoe: a classic example is (cond ((string= input "") ... no input ...) ((null (setf num (parse-integer input :junk-allowed t))) ... bad input ..) (t use num for stuff)
2018-01-09T17:58:14Z jmercouris: makomo: Correct
2018-01-09T17:58:24Z jmercouris: makomo: Though, not strictly GTK, it also uses Cocoa
2018-01-09T17:58:39Z jmercouris: It can be ported to use just about any GUI framework as there is an API between the core and GUI that is extremely simple
2018-01-09T17:58:45Z phoe: dlowe: can you pastebin this for me? I think I need to read it formatted to understand it
2018-01-09T17:58:51Z jmercouris: the GTK port took me just 2 weeks, and most of that time was because I don't know GTK
2018-01-09T17:58:53Z dlowe: phoe: sure :)
2018-01-09T17:59:01Z makomo: jmercouris: oh nice
2018-01-09T17:59:29Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: i don't use brew :~(
2018-01-09T17:59:42Z asarch: Wow! Thank you Masters
2018-01-09T17:59:46Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-01-09T18:00:32Z dlowe: omg, no more lisppaste
2018-01-09T18:00:44Z dlowe: pour one out
2018-01-09T18:01:18Z jmercouris: dlowe: lol
2018-01-09T18:01:20Z Xach: I don't really miss it like I thought I would.
2018-01-09T18:01:28Z Xach: Gist is pretty easy, and it seems like there are plenty of others.
2018-01-09T18:01:33Z asarch: BTW, SBCL has changed its version:  SBCL 1.4.3, released December 29, 2017
2018-01-09T18:01:35Z jmercouris: I have gist integrated into emacs
2018-01-09T18:01:51Z Xach: asarch: o happy day!
2018-01-09T18:01:52Z dlowe: phoe: https://pastebin.com/tWtVNXPR
2018-01-09T18:02:05Z jmercouris: really good: https://github.com/defunkt/gist.el
2018-01-09T18:02:23Z jmercouris: who are the developers of SBCL?
2018-01-09T18:02:27Z jmercouris: are they on this channel?
2018-01-09T18:02:38Z phoe: jmercouris: #sbcl
2018-01-09T18:02:56Z dlowe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/CREDITS
2018-01-09T18:03:47Z jmercouris: Ah, okay
2018-01-09T18:03:51Z asarch: There is a big party at #sbcl
2018-01-09T18:04:23Z phoe: dlowe: dirty. but useful.
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2018-01-09T18:05:13Z dlowe: I don't think it's *that* dirty.
2018-01-09T18:05:26Z _death: what about that Arpanet mail address
2018-01-09T18:07:26Z phoe: dlowe: isn't that dirty, yeah.
2018-01-09T18:07:41Z dlowe: phoe: I mean, compare with the alternatives :)
2018-01-09T18:08:02Z borei: hi all !
2018-01-09T18:08:17Z phoe: hey borei
2018-01-09T18:08:19Z phoe: dlowe: (:
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2018-01-09T18:10:05Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-09T18:13:09Z borei: i have question about memory management in lisp. If for example my function is returning array what would be proper solution for this task - request array in the calling function and supply it as one of the argument and then fill with data, or just create array in the called function and then return it ?
2018-01-09T18:13:38Z Xach: borei: good question! both approaches are ok. in some situations it is better to do one, some the other.
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2018-01-09T18:14:10Z Xach: borei: If your system has to be more strict about creating new things and using memory, passing arrays in to be populated can provide more control.
2018-01-09T18:14:22Z Xach: borei: but much of the time it is ok to create things as they are needed.
2018-01-09T18:14:52Z pjb: most of the time, it will be easier and FASTER to allocate them.
2018-01-09T18:14:54Z _death: you can have both
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2018-01-09T18:15:10Z Xach: yes indeed
2018-01-09T18:15:37Z borei: but, speaking about second option, will that array be cleaned up by GC after called function completed ?
2018-01-09T18:15:44Z Xach: borei: oh, certainly.
2018-01-09T18:15:44Z phoe: borei: depends
2018-01-09T18:15:55Z Xach: borei: not when it completes, but when it is no longer used
2018-01-09T18:15:57Z pjb: borei: the GC only works on objects that are not accessible anymore.
2018-01-09T18:16:00Z phoe: STATIC-VECTORS are a case where you'd want to pass an array to a function instead of creating a new one.
2018-01-09T18:16:14Z phoe: since they're pretty damn efficient and very easy to utilize from inside CFFI.
2018-01-09T18:16:16Z Xach: static-vectors is an advanced topic you can ignore
2018-01-09T18:16:17Z pjb: So in all cases, as long as you keep references to the data, it won't be freed.
2018-01-09T18:16:18Z phoe: ...and from inside lisp.
2018-01-09T18:16:19Z osune: I'm sorry but to ask such a simple question but I cannot comprehend at the moment the use case for FIND-IF. Or how it differs from FIND. Can somebody please state the obvious for me?
2018-01-09T18:16:23Z phoe: Xach: d'oh
2018-01-09T18:16:40Z pjb: (find-if (lambda (x) (> x 3)) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)) #| --> 4 |#
2018-01-09T18:16:41Z Xach: osune: imagine you want to find any odd number instead of a specific one
2018-01-09T18:16:50Z Xach: osune: you could use (find-if 'oddp ...) instead of (find 3 ...)
2018-01-09T18:16:55Z pjb: (find 4 '(1 3 5 7 9)) #| --> nil |#
2018-01-09T18:17:04Z phoe: osune: FIND searches for an object that is EQL to something. FIND-IF searches for an object that satisfies a predicate function.
2018-01-09T18:17:38Z phoe: EQL can be exchanged for a different test function, but that's the default.
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2018-01-09T18:18:16Z osune: but I can provide a :test #'oddp for FIND?
2018-01-09T18:18:22Z pjb: (find-if #'digit-char-p "Hello 42th world!") #| --> #\4 |#
2018-01-09T18:18:27Z phoe: osune: you'll get an error.
2018-01-09T18:18:34Z phoe: The function for :TEST expects two arguments.
2018-01-09T18:18:37Z pjb: osune: :test must be a binary function.
2018-01-09T18:18:42Z osune: uhhhhh
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2018-01-09T18:18:50Z phoe: The predicate for FIND-IF expects one argument.
2018-01-09T18:19:04Z phoe: FIND works via repeatedly executing things like (EQL x y).
2018-01-09T18:19:19Z Xach: osune: it is true that sometimes functionality overlaps, and you could write a :test that would do what find-if does, but it would be pretty convoluted
2018-01-09T18:19:19Z phoe: FIND-IF works via repeatedly executing (FUNCALL predicate x).
2018-01-09T18:19:41Z phoe: Both of them return immediately when they get a non-null result.
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2018-01-09T18:20:40Z borei: tks guys !
2018-01-09T18:21:00Z _death: FIND is similar to (find-if (lambda (hay) (funcall test hay needle)) ...), disregarding certain details
2018-01-09T18:21:14Z phoe: Xach: I just realized a thing.
2018-01-09T18:21:29Z Xach: spill it
2018-01-09T18:21:44Z osune: So i would have to 'workaround' with a lambda (x, y) (oddp x) or equivalent to use FIND. Thanks I wasn't able to grasp that at the moment and I started to get annoyed.
2018-01-09T18:22:29Z phoe: The moment I mention a thing to answer a basic question and other people go "that's advanced stuff, disregard it", I don't think I'm a newbie anymore.
2018-01-09T18:23:11Z Xach: ok!!
2018-01-09T18:23:22Z osune: well yes that's the reverse definition of "newbie" :)
2018-01-09T18:25:31Z phoe: kinda
2018-01-09T18:26:45Z Xach: phoe: I think sometimes when trying to help it can be hard to separate the "applicable knowledge" from the "necessary knowledge" for a situation
2018-01-09T18:26:59Z Xach: static-vectors info is applicable but i think not necessary
2018-01-09T18:28:16Z phoe: Xach: correct.
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2018-01-09T18:31:15Z phoe: I think that I am just sore on that spot right now
2018-01-09T18:31:33Z phoe: after not using static-vectors made my library 40000% slower than it should be
2018-01-09T18:31:41Z phoe: (this is not a made up number)
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2018-01-09T18:44:44Z Shinmera: I was just reminded that I started writing a plaster.el . I guess I'll take that as a small project between exam studying.
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2018-01-09T19:45:01Z d4ryus: hey #lisp, could someone tell me the difference between usocket and iolib?
2018-01-09T19:45:14Z dlowe: usocket is a wrapper for socket operations
2018-01-09T19:45:29Z dlowe: iolib is a full event multiplexer for managing lots of io operations and timed events
2018-01-09T19:46:16Z d4ryus: dlowe: thanks
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2018-01-09T19:47:53Z Shinmera: iolib also requires libfixposix, whereas usocket is a pure-CL socket solution.
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2018-01-09T19:54:06Z jasom: and usocket works on windows, I don't think iolib will
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2018-01-09T19:58:10Z phoe: d4ryus: (over)simplifying things a real lot: usocket is portable, iolib is performant.
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2018-01-09T19:59:13Z Shinmera: I don't think that's a good way to put it at all
2018-01-09T19:59:26Z Xach: I've been interested in basic-binary-ipc for quite some time too.
2018-01-09T19:59:26Z Shinmera: iolib has a different scope and approach.
2018-01-09T19:59:47Z jasom: +1 for basic-binary-ipc
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2018-01-09T20:00:30Z jasom: though note that the overlapped-io driver on windows is under-exercised (it works as far as anyone knows, but it hasn't been used as heavily as the epoll driver, so there may be some latent issues)
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2018-01-09T20:01:18Z jasom: though that information is like 2 years old; pillton might know if it's being used more these days
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2018-01-09T20:02:02Z jasom remembers considering writing something like basic-binary-ipc but then thinking "that's a lot of boring, thankless, slog-work."
2018-01-09T20:02:11Z jasom: I'm always impressed with people that can finish projects like that
2018-01-09T20:02:56Z Shinmera: Speaking of things like that, I've been considering writing a github API client, but just the thought of dealing with oauth2 is making me cringe.
2018-01-09T20:03:20Z Shinmera: Will probably just bash my head through it eventually anyway though, if my past record is anything to go by.
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2018-01-09T20:04:26Z Shinmera: If I wanted to be fully future proof I'd probably have to implement the v4 though, which uses GraphQL.
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2018-01-09T20:04:42Z Xach: Shinmera: so i have one called "githappy" and you can plug in a token from the dev site to get full rate querying without going through oauth2
2018-01-09T20:04:44Z jmercouris: It was reccomended to me to use https://github.com/flathub to distribute nEXT, any feedback on this?
2018-01-09T20:04:44Z Shinmera: Looking at that spec made my eyes glaze over though, so that probably won't happen
2018-01-09T20:05:05Z Xach: Shinmera: I use it to do all github-related quicklisp stuff (which isn't much yet)
2018-01-09T20:05:28Z jmercouris: Shinmera: There's already a few emacs github apis clients, why do you want to write one?
2018-01-09T20:05:35Z Shinmera: Xach: Ah, neat.
2018-01-09T20:05:45Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Because I don't want to write elisp?
2018-01-09T20:05:56Z Shinmera: And because my programs aren't written in elisp
2018-01-09T20:06:38Z Shinmera: Xach: Is that for the v3 API?
2018-01-09T20:06:42Z Xach: Shinmera: yeah
2018-01-09T20:06:47Z d4ryus: jasom, phoe, Shinmera: Thank you
2018-01-09T20:07:14Z Shinmera: Xach: Alright, I'll see if I can convince myself to just extend/use that.
2018-01-09T20:07:48Z Xach: I understand if the result is "no", as it is not documented or high-level.
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2018-01-09T20:07:53Z jmercouris: Shinmera: True, who does enjoy writing in elisp :D
2018-01-09T20:08:47Z Shinmera: Xach: The purist in me is hoping I'll write yak-shave a GraphQL library and then use V4, but we'll see.
2018-01-09T20:09:20Z jmercouris: You should call it yak-razor
2018-01-09T20:09:20Z d4ryus: I have been using usocket, but iam missing stuff like checking how many bytes i can read from a socket without blocking.
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2018-01-09T20:09:59Z Shinmera: You can at least check whether there's anything to read or not without blocking
2018-01-09T20:10:28Z d4ryus: Shinmera: yes, but that would suggest reading single bytes :/
2018-01-09T20:10:37Z Shinmera: Huh? Why?
2018-01-09T20:11:05Z d4ryus: Because a byte is the least amount available
2018-01-09T20:11:48Z Shinmera: Yeah but you'll send messages in chunks rather than individual bytes, yeah?
2018-01-09T20:12:04Z Shinmera: So when there's input available you read an entire message.
2018-01-09T20:12:08Z d4ryus: yes, true. but that could be abused.
2018-01-09T20:12:19Z Shinmera: How?
2018-01-09T20:13:02Z d4ryus: once i do a read-line, or read-sequence n and the other end sends less bytes then i expect, my client hangs
2018-01-09T20:13:33Z Shinmera: Are you hoping to do everything in a single thread or something?
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2018-01-09T20:13:52Z d4ryus: yep, that would be the goal
2018-01-09T20:14:17Z Xach: d4ryus: You should not use read-line and read-sequence, then.
2018-01-09T20:14:24Z phoe: I went around this by using peek-char-no-hang
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2018-01-09T20:14:26Z Shinmera: Whatever for? Having a socket reader thread and a queue for messages is not a big deal.
2018-01-09T20:14:26Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.lisp#L274
2018-01-09T20:14:27Z Xach: d4ryus: use interfaces that read as much as is availble and return.
2018-01-09T20:14:57Z d4ryus: Xach: interfaces like?
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2018-01-09T20:15:28Z Shinmera: phoe: read-char-no-hang does not help here.
2018-01-09T20:15:40Z Shinmera: And reading char by char is atrocious for performance, especially if you do the no-hang variant.
2018-01-09T20:16:13Z d4ryus: yes, like shinmera said, that would be reading single bytes
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2018-01-09T20:16:31Z phoe: ayup, but I doubt you can do better with usocket.
2018-01-09T20:16:53Z d4ryus: Xach: which interfaces exist that read only as much as is available?
2018-01-09T20:16:58Z Shinmera: Using a thread and checking for input before reading a full message works perfectly fine.
2018-01-09T20:17:52Z Xach: d4ryus: I'm not sure what is portable, but sb-bsd-sockets:socket-receive I think will do the trick.
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2018-01-09T20:18:36Z d4ryus: Xach: looking into that, thank you
2018-01-09T20:19:00Z dlowe: I have some code floating around using iolib that opens a non-blocking socket, reads into an expanding buffer on input, and runs a callback function when a full line is read.
2018-01-09T20:19:02Z Shinmera: The API I'd prefer instead is having a read-timeout available.
2018-01-09T20:19:04Z dlowe: It's not particularly hard.
2018-01-09T20:19:49Z d4ryus: Shinmera: yes thats my current solution. Iam creating a thread for each connection, those get terminated in case they hang on read-sequence
2018-01-09T20:20:36Z d4ryus: Shinmera: usocket allows you to set timeouts
2018-01-09T20:21:32Z Shinmera: Oh, it does?
2018-01-09T20:21:53Z Shinmera: Hmm
2018-01-09T20:22:02Z Shinmera: Why do I explicitly remember not seeing that
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2018-01-09T20:22:08Z d4ryus: yes, checkout option.lisp
2018-01-09T20:22:17Z Xach: I've often thought about a portability layer that does not try to pretend sockets are streams, and just offers read-octets, write-octets and a few other things.
2018-01-09T20:24:13Z Shinmera: Ah, it was added after I first started using Usocket I think
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2018-01-09T20:24:35Z Shinmera: So much for the ecosystem being stagnant!
2018-01-09T20:24:58Z Xach: I've had that happen with cl-ppcre! It grew special processor options for register-groups-bind after I learned how to use it.
2018-01-09T20:25:56Z d4ryus: :D but stuff inside option.lisp is not too platform-independent
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2018-01-09T20:28:34Z Shinmera: d4ryus: Every other line is a reader conditional. I think that's pretty dependent.
2018-01-09T20:29:21Z Shinmera: I actually wonder why it was done this way rather than having each function defined in the platform specific file.
2018-01-09T20:29:24Z Shinmera: :/
2018-01-09T20:29:51Z d4ryus: Shinmera: yes, true. but most platforms are not implemented.
2018-01-09T20:32:20Z Shinmera: I see clisp, ccl, cmucl, ecl, lw, and sbcl for read timeout. Good enough for me!
2018-01-09T20:32:55Z phoe: abcl could be done as well, but eh
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2018-01-09T20:38:20Z logicmoo: hrrm I noticed most all impls dont have private symbols in COMMON-LISP though most all  describe the lambda list arguments that might have appeared in COMMON-LISP package as comming from their respective impl packages symbol examples are TEST,TEST-NOT,BODY etc
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2018-01-09T20:40:01Z logicmoo: so i am trying to decide .. if i might just leave  CL::TEST in the way ABCL does
2018-01-09T20:40:50Z Shinmera: Who cares?
2018-01-09T20:40:52Z logicmoo: or was there a reason everyone else scrubs out their CL non exported symbols?
2018-01-09T20:41:12Z Shinmera: Uh, typically there's no reason to put symbols in there other than those that are exported to begin with
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2018-01-09T20:41:38Z logicmoo: (some dont scrub them out they are litternally where they belongs and then later exported into CL)
2018-01-09T20:42:43Z logicmoo: ok, so possibly, ABCL is the odd one here
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2018-01-09T20:45:24Z logicmoo: in my impl (i followed ABCLs method here) i ended up with CL::TEST as a non exported symbol and was wondering how wierd it was to have several non export symbols in COMMON-LISP
2018-01-09T20:45:54Z Shinmera: 21:40:50   Shinmera | Who cares?
2018-01-09T20:45:58Z Xach: There should be exactly 976 symbols in COMMON-LISP.
2018-01-09T20:46:07Z Shinmera: the standard only says things about exported symbols, if I remember correctly
2018-01-09T20:46:08Z Xach: Any more and things could really get fouled up.
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2018-01-09T20:46:12Z logicmoo: exacly i was thinking about the ANSI tests
2018-01-09T20:46:53Z logicmoo: Shinmera.. please ignore me
2018-01-09T20:47:10Z Shinmera: I refuse
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2018-01-09T20:47:49Z Shinmera: clhs 11.1.2.1
2018-01-09T20:47:49Z specbot: The COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm
2018-01-09T20:48:14Z Shinmera: "The COMMON-LISP package can have additional internal symbols.
2018-01-09T20:48:17Z Shinmera: "
2018-01-09T20:48:58Z logicmoo: yet everyone works very hard not to
2018-01-09T20:49:07Z Shinmera: I don't think they do, there's just no reason to.
2018-01-09T20:49:12Z phoe grabs the STANDARD-COMPLIANT stamp
2018-01-09T20:49:23Z Shinmera: You shouldn't (in-package :cl) anyway, so there's no reason other symbols might end up in there anyway.
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2018-01-09T20:50:30Z logicmoo: yeah i think i am going to stop doing that
2018-01-09T20:50:43Z phoe: interning symbols in CL package is undefined behaviour
2018-01-09T20:50:59Z Shinmera: phoe: Remember he's writing an implementation
2018-01-09T20:51:24Z phoe facepalms
2018-01-09T20:51:37Z logicmoo: ABCL does it via (in-package :cl)  (so was i)
2018-01-09T20:51:45Z phoe: in this case, interning symbols in CL package is undefined behaviour, BUT you're in a good place to define it
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2018-01-09T20:52:24Z Shinmera: logicmoo: I'd just define the functions in your implementation package and then (export (import foo :cl) :cl). Maybe even make a macro that does that automatically.
2018-01-09T20:52:27Z logicmoo: mainly my concern was code that for whatever reason my call (find-symbol "..." :CL)
2018-01-09T20:52:35Z logicmoo: my/might
2018-01-09T20:53:55Z d4ryus: to clarify: sb-bsd-sockets:socket-receive with :dontwait t only reads all available bytes without blocking. Which means one could use usocket:wait-for-input to check which sockets have input available and then read from those all available bytes without blocking. This can be used to read from multiple sockets from a single thread.
2018-01-09T20:54:25Z logicmoo: Shinmera: yup i have seen a few macros that do that in various places
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2018-01-09T21:11:19Z Xach: I would make a defpackage with all 976 symbols exported, and then only reference them as cl:whatever thereafter.
2018-01-09T21:12:56Z Xach: d4ryus: there ya go
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2018-01-09T21:23:21Z borei: does lisp generate generic function for macroses ? in other words can i create 2 macroses with the same name but different signature ?
2018-01-09T21:23:51Z dlowe: borei: you can with &rest parameters
2018-01-09T21:24:15Z dlowe: borei: it will be the same macro but you will have to decide its behavior depending on its arguments.
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2018-01-09T21:24:22Z cgay: sbcl CREDITS hasn't been updated for 5 years, so supplement it with the github commit history I think.
2018-01-09T21:24:31Z borei: oh, forgot about that key.
2018-01-09T21:24:33Z borei: tks !
2018-01-09T21:24:40Z dlowe: np
2018-01-09T21:24:50Z cgay: aaaaand I forgot I was reading scrollback again.
2018-01-09T21:25:23Z dlowe: still a little relevant :)
2018-01-09T21:25:50Z cgay: dammit. I mostly try not to be relevant.
2018-01-09T21:26:19Z bms_: :P
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2018-01-09T21:35:14Z aeth: Don't forget that macros use a more advanced lambda list than functions. (defmacro foo (((&key bar) &key foo) &body body) `'(,foo ,bar ,@body)) (foo ((:bar 0) :foo 42) 1)
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2018-01-09T21:36:24Z aeth: (&optional and &rest can be used instead of &key in that example, if you also change the way the macro's called)
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2018-01-09T21:37:08Z aeth: The best part about this is that if you can do it entirely through the lambda-list, Emacs+SLIME will know the full API and tell you in the mini-buffer.
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2018-01-09T21:57:41Z logicmoo: Xach: thank you
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2018-01-09T22:06:05Z jmercouris: Is there a way to embed an opengl view within mcclim?
2018-01-09T22:07:06Z Shinmera: Things work the other way around.
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2018-01-09T22:07:21Z Shinmera: You'd embed mcclim in an opengl window.
2018-01-09T22:07:29Z jmercouris: I see
2018-01-09T22:07:38Z Shinmera: And then you could draw opengl stuff to a subregion of that.
2018-01-09T22:07:50Z jmercouris: hmm, sounds complicated
2018-01-09T22:10:30Z Shinmera: Anyway, point is, if you want to draw with GL you need a GL context and a GL window from the OS.
2018-01-09T22:10:59Z Shinmera: You could potentially do stuff like creating an offscreen context, rendering to that, extracting the texture, and then drawing that onto a native surface or whatever
2018-01-09T22:11:23Z Shinmera: But typically you want things to go the other way around
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2018-01-09T22:12:16Z aeth: Generally, people use SDL via cl-sdl2 to get the GL context and GL window and handle input. This is extreme overkill because you're bundling a large C library with tons of platform support you'll never use and tons of features you'll never use, via a large wrapper with additional features you won't use, just to get OpenGL up.
2018-01-09T22:12:41Z aeth: But I do this because doing things the right way would probably be harder. Doing things the lazy way probably makes distribution harder, though.
2018-01-09T22:13:02Z Shinmera: GLFW is more minimal and works just as well
2018-01-09T22:13:17Z Shinmera: There's also the lisp native GLOP, but it's pretty broken
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2018-01-09T22:14:17Z aeth: Fortunately, I only need to support X and Windows because Apple decided to not update OpenGL in the last 6.5 years or so.
2018-01-09T22:14:28Z aeth: So I could do an approach similar to GLOP if only I had the time.
2018-01-09T22:14:50Z Shinmera: Huh? GL3+ works just fine on mac.
2018-01-09T22:15:03Z aeth: 4.1
2018-01-09T22:15:06Z aeth: Mac stops at 4.1
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2018-01-09T22:15:19Z aeth: OpenGL 4.2 was released 2011-08-08
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2018-01-09T22:15:36Z Shinmera: Well, most things can be done with 4.1
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2018-01-09T22:18:20Z aeth: I don't have the resources to maintain two renderers, a fast one for modern OpenGL and a slow one for OS X.
2018-01-09T22:18:50Z aeth: I also don't have the resources to overpay for hardware and get a Mac Mini just to test on OS X.
2018-01-09T22:19:14Z phoe: aeth: hackintoshes are doable nowadays
2018-01-09T22:19:21Z phoe: but that's a completely #lispcafe topic
2018-01-09T22:21:09Z Shinmera: aeth: What exactly do you need to do that requires such a recent GL?
2018-01-09T22:21:58Z aeth: Shinmera: I currently use 3.3 and I am bumping up the API as I need the features, but I am not supporting OS X with my engine because I'm not going to limit my features at 4.1.
2018-01-09T22:22:05Z aeth: e.g. 4.3 introduces compute shaders
2018-01-09T22:22:34Z Shinmera: Well, you're cutting out a large user base then.
2018-01-09T22:24:09Z aeth: Anyone will be free to add #+darwin and #-darwin via patches to my engine if they want to. I just don't have the resources to do so myself.
2018-01-09T22:25:42Z aeth: It wouldn't just be the renderer, though, e.g. Windows and standard Unix configuration/local-data directories (e.g. ~/.config/ and ~/.local/share/) are supported for "free" through UIOP
2018-01-09T22:26:02Z aeth: macOS directories would have to be handled manually
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2018-01-09T22:26:52Z aeth: (UIOP treats macOS as a Unix)
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2018-01-09T22:36:24Z phoe: (as it should be)
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2018-01-09T22:46:07Z p_l has trouble considering macOS to be "large user base" still :|
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2018-01-09T22:46:48Z Shinmera: it's significant enough for developers
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2018-01-09T22:47:46Z Shinmera: As in, lots of developers use macs
2018-01-09T22:49:21Z aeth: For games, there's the Steam HW survey. Unfortunately, the Steam HW Survey is no longer accurate due to the massive surge of accounts from China for PUBG. It's unlikely that those accounts are going to buy most games, especially ones without Chinese localizations.
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2018-01-09T22:49:30Z aeth: I don't think the Steam HW survey has a region breakdown.
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2018-01-09T22:49:56Z aeth: e.g. right now Linux is at 0.26%, way down from last year, but in the US, it's closer to 2.5% or so iirc.
2018-01-09T22:50:13Z aeth: OSX is at 1.42%, but in the US it's probably closer to 8% or so
2018-01-09T22:50:28Z aeth: if not 10%
2018-01-09T22:50:35Z Shinmera: It also doesn't report GL version availability
2018-01-09T22:50:50Z Shinmera: It lists most cards used, but you'd have to crunch the numbers manually and that's a pita
2018-01-09T22:51:22Z aeth: And that wouldn't take into account OSes.
2018-01-09T22:51:31Z aeth: macOS ships perfectly capable hardware, limited by drivers to 4.1
2018-01-09T22:51:50Z aeth: And Intel's versions differ depending on platform because they have separate driver teams for Windows and Linux.
2018-01-09T22:51:50Z jmercouris: I wonder why they do that
2018-01-09T22:51:53Z jmercouris: what is their reasoning
2018-01-09T22:52:01Z Shinmera: Writing drivers is hard
2018-01-09T22:52:05Z jmercouris: I don
2018-01-09T22:52:10Z jmercouris: I don't think that's their reasoning
2018-01-09T22:52:23Z aeth: jmercouris: Android runs GL, iOS runs GL. (Technically the embedded version.) Only iOS and macOS run Metal. Mobile lock-in is the reason.
2018-01-09T22:52:52Z aeth: They'll take worse games on Macbooks to provide more exclusive games to iOS, where they get a cut on every sale.
2018-01-09T22:53:01Z jmercouris: You think so?
2018-01-09T22:53:06Z jmercouris: I don't know that seems really far fetched to me
2018-01-09T22:53:15Z jmercouris: what about other applications like final cut, and photoshop
2018-01-09T22:53:23Z aeth: Applications that use GL tend to lag behind.
2018-01-09T22:53:29Z aeth: It's the games that want the newer APIs
2018-01-09T22:53:43Z jmercouris: This is too tinfoil hat
2018-01-09T22:53:47Z jmercouris: especially since there is also a mac app store
2018-01-09T22:53:49Z aeth: How much does Apple make on games on macOS? They don't get any from the ones sold through Steam.
2018-01-09T22:53:55Z jmercouris: so why would they not want to sell games on the mac app store as well?
2018-01-09T22:54:15Z jmercouris: I think a typical mac user will install from the app store before installing steam client + some games
2018-01-09T22:54:20Z Shinmera: Anyway, this is getting pretty far from Lisp, so please >>#lispcafe
2018-01-09T22:54:28Z aeth: jmercouris: I think most people who game on Apple hardware probably use Bootcamp to game through Windows because Windows has much better support for games.
2018-01-09T22:54:36Z jmercouris: yeah, or wineskin
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2018-01-09T23:04:41Z rumbler31: aeth: there exists a no-lib-necessary way to get an opengl i just need to find it
2018-01-09T23:05:03Z Shinmera: rumbler31: I already mentioned it. It's called GLOP and it's broken.
2018-01-09T23:05:40Z aeth: rumbler31: You essentially need to CFFI directly to X (or perhaps a clx-style approach would work), WinAPI, macOS's API, etc.
2018-01-09T23:05:45Z aeth: That's what GLOP does (poorly)
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2018-01-09T23:06:21Z aeth: And, yeah, then if you solve sound, too, you have a 0-library approach, even though you do have to FFI to the OS and to OpenGL.
2018-01-09T23:06:31Z Shinmera: Sound is solved
2018-01-09T23:06:32Z aeth: s/0-library/0-foreign-library/
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2018-01-09T23:07:34Z aeth: Shinmera: Is the sound library non-consing? The main reason (other than no libraries) that I'd want to replace cl-sdl2 is because it is the only thing in my game loop that conses, and a direct FFI approach could (hopefully) preallocate everything.
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2018-01-09T23:07:55Z Shinmera: Should be mostly non-consing, though I have not tested for it.
2018-01-09T23:08:08Z Shinmera: Non-consing isn't very important to me, but nativeness is.
2018-01-09T23:08:09Z aeth: yeah, I get mostly non-consing through cl-sdl2
2018-01-09T23:08:17Z aeth: I get absolutely non-consing in everything else, at least in SBCL
2018-01-09T23:08:35Z aeth: Not even stack allocating, except for a few matrices that would be a pain to deal with in non-allocating ways.
2018-01-09T23:09:44Z aeth: Ideally, the GC could be disabled during gameplay (can this be done in SBCL?) and only turned on outside of gameplay when consing could potentially happen. Although I'm not sure the GC would do much if all that's there are a bunch of long-lasting preallocated data structures that don't change.
2018-01-09T23:10:36Z Shinmera: Avoiding GC at all cost kinda throws a lot of what makes CL advantageous out of the window in my opinion
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2018-01-09T23:11:06Z aeth: What makes CL adventageous is real macros and controlling when evaluation happens. The macros would be painful to write without GC, but the GC is happening outside of the game loop so it doesn't matter.
2018-01-09T23:12:02Z aeth: I have two styles: inside game loop and outside game loop. Only the former cares about avoiding consing.
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2018-01-09T23:12:25Z aeth: I should probably update my CONTRIBUTING.md to explain this, although it's not like anyone contributes.
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2018-01-09T23:13:14Z rumbler31: ah glop is broken you say?
2018-01-09T23:13:18Z Shinmera: It is.
2018-01-09T23:13:23Z jasom: aeth: sbcl does support disabling the GC, but it will explode if a GC is ever needed
2018-01-09T23:13:47Z Shinmera: rumbler31: if I remember correctly doesn't work at all on OS X, has a broken, unmovable, borderless, fixed-size window on Windows.
2018-01-09T23:13:58Z rumbler31: huh
2018-01-09T23:14:02Z rumbler31: thanks for the heads up
2018-01-09T23:14:43Z Shinmera: jasom: if I remember correctly the GC shouldn't trigger unless there's pressure anyway, right?
2018-01-09T23:15:30Z rumbler31: has anyone looked into cribbing racket's ui toolkit?
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2018-01-09T23:38:44Z JuanDaugherty: cribbing is documenting or porting?
2018-01-09T23:39:06Z Xach: JuanDaugherty: borrowing, taking inspiration from, copying
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2018-01-09T23:39:10Z aeth: I added an explanation of my no-consing style to my CONTRIBUTING.md: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/5e0f01a21cd1b3359925f726eddff9237f02d3ff/CONTRIBUTING.md#consing-heap-allocations
2018-01-09T23:39:26Z JuanDaugherty: ah, that's what I meant by porting
2018-01-09T23:39:35Z JuanDaugherty: (from scheme to cl)
2018-01-09T23:40:04Z JuanDaugherty: do have deja vu about the usage now
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2018-01-09T23:40:27Z JuanDaugherty: the sense of inspiration, clonal activity vs regular port
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2018-01-09T23:59:44Z gendl: Hi, is there something which works similar to mapcan, but collects the results into a string instead of a list? (where the lambda function would return a string).
2018-01-10T00:00:28Z Xach: not built-in
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2018-01-10T00:06:17Z phoe: (concatenate 'string ...) the mapcar'd results
2018-01-10T00:06:21Z phoe: it will work for short lists
2018-01-10T00:07:52Z phoe: if you want longer lists, then go for a custom concatenator whom you feed a list of strings, which makes a fresh string of length (reduce #'+ strings :key #'length) and then copy-seqs each string into its respective place inside the result string.
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2018-01-10T00:18:38Z borei: i'm implementing basic linear algebra library, was working on the matricies arithmetic operations - like '+', '-', multiplication by number, but COMMON-LISP package already has that operation defined as ordinary functions, does it mean that i can't use above operation normally like for example in C++ ? without package prefix like cl:+ ?
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2018-01-10T00:27:33Z Xach: borei: that's about right, if you shadow cl:+ etc
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2018-01-10T00:30:52Z borei: but i can't completely shadow it, because i still need to add numbers
2018-01-10T00:32:11Z borei: seems like best approach would be introduction of alphanumerical functions names like - add, subtract, mult, divide etc
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2018-01-10T00:44:11Z Xach: borei: "shadow" in the lisp sense means what happens when you use a package but don't want to use it all
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2018-01-10T01:02:02Z jasom: Shinmera: all I know is that whatever heuristic sbcl uses for invoking the GC doesn't usually do what I want.  I typically invoke the GC manually
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2018-01-10T01:18:57Z aeth: borei: If you're writing a linear algebra library and you want generic arithemtic operators, you probably want to use specialization-store by pillton instead of writing your own macros. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2018-01-10T01:20:03Z aeth: You *might* be able to use it to still call cl:+ for types that cl:+ supports, with most of the work done for you.
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2018-01-10T01:21:12Z aeth: specialization-store basically lets you define functions that work in (roughly) the same way as the built-in CL functions that are generic over sequences or numbers. Runtime dispatch on unknown types, but more efficient code if the types are known.
2018-01-10T01:24:14Z aeth: (This only happens when inline, but if you want a middle ground for more complex functions that probably shouldn't be inline, you could define functions that are called by inline specializations.)
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2018-01-10T01:26:32Z aeth: (And you'd probably want to wrap that function call in (the foo-type ...) if the return type is known)
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2018-01-10T01:28:54Z aeth: (Actually, it'd be great if specialization-store had something like :inline-function-call that did this automatically.)
2018-01-10T01:29:11Z ebrasca: No applicable methods to generic function #<Standard-Generic-Function PARSE-NAMESTRING-USING-HOST 400000002539> (PARSE-NAMESTRING-USING-HOST) when called with (#<Mezzano.Fat32-File-System::Fat32-Host 400001E51469> ">Fonts>LICENSE" NIL).
2018-01-10T01:29:17Z ebrasca: What does it mean?
2018-01-10T01:31:43Z Bike: parse-namestring-using-host is a generic function, and it doesn't have any methods that would fit the classes of those objects.
2018-01-10T01:32:49Z jasom: ebrasca: looks like a mezanno specific thing froggey can help maybe?
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2018-01-10T01:34:31Z ebrasca: jasom: ok
2018-01-10T01:35:23Z aeth: Bike: Is it possible to write hygienic macros in CL without any libraries? If not, is it possible to write hygienic macros in CL with introspect-environment? Or is there some vital information missing? https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2018-01-10T01:35:43Z aeth: The main thing I know about hygienic macros is that they require knowledge of the environment.
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2018-01-10T01:36:21Z Bike: not something i care about, but maybe see https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8b69/c81fff9a5ecebdd0a5839536eb7d716d8b5b.pdf
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2018-01-10T01:45:45Z aeth: hmm... I might actually write cl-cl after cl-scheme.
2018-01-10T01:47:21Z aeth: Here's why: I think I could actually produce faster CL code by generating CL code from CL code since cl-cl would be able to analyze the whole program and essentially automatically apply little optimization tricks.
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2018-01-10T01:58:09Z asarch: "Today, I want to use CLISP instead of SBCL" <- Is there any way to start SLIME with a different Lisp?
2018-01-10T01:59:30Z sigjuice: asarch: C-u M-x slime
2018-01-10T01:59:38Z ebrasca: asarch: I think with (setq inferior-lisp-program "clisp")
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2018-01-10T02:00:04Z asarch: ebrasca, yeah but from a different lisp from .emacs file
2018-01-10T02:00:40Z ebrasca: asarch: It is in my init.el file
2018-01-10T02:01:06Z asarch: Thank you sigjuice
2018-01-10T02:01:37Z ebrasca: asarch: https://github.com/slime/slime
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2018-01-10T02:03:46Z sigjuice: asarch: the Run Lisp: prompt in the minibuffer should also have history, accessible by <up>/<down>
2018-01-10T02:04:47Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-01-10T02:07:15Z asarch: Thank you guys
2018-01-10T02:07:20Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-01-10T02:10:20Z sigjuice: This is also super convenient for trying out a different version of an SBCL binary release.  There is no need to "install" anything.  C-u M-x slime ~/sbcl-1.4.3-x86-linux/run-sbcl.sh RET
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2018-01-10T02:22:55Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-10T02:23:12Z asarch: What is the correct way to exit from Slime?
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2018-01-10T02:26:26Z sigjuice: asarch I am not sure.  I was wondering the same thing myself a couple of days ago.
2018-01-10T02:26:45Z ebrasca: asarch: Maybe " M-x slime-quit-lisp "
2018-01-10T02:27:44Z asarch: Because "Do you want to kill to process?" is quite terrible
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2018-01-10T02:29:13Z sigjuice: ebrasca thanks!
2018-01-10T02:30:24Z sigjuice: hmm. seems to leave behind a dead *slime-repl sbcl* buffer.
2018-01-10T02:31:01Z asarch: You can kill it with C-x k
2018-01-10T02:31:10Z asarch: Thanks ebrasca
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2018-01-10T02:41:44Z sigjuice: Also leaves behind a *slime-events* buffer.  C-h f slime-quit-lisp RET says "Quit lisp, kill the inferior process and associated buffers.".
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2018-01-10T02:43:43Z sigjuice: I have way too many buffers, so an extra couple here or there doesn't bother me :)
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2018-01-10T03:29:46Z jmercouris: does anyone use mezzano as their primary os?
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2018-01-10T03:43:52Z ebrasca: jmercouris: Probably not used as primary os , but I can start mezzano in my PC bare metal.
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2018-01-10T03:50:03Z jmercouris: no way? that's amazing
2018-01-10T03:50:18Z jmercouris: did you have to write your own drivers?
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2018-01-10T04:07:52Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I have don't write my own drivers.
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2018-01-10T04:19:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-10T04:22:11Z ebrasca: beach: Good morning
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2018-01-10T04:35:06Z ebrasca-mezzano: Hi
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2018-01-10T04:55:16Z aeth: Is it possible to use static-vectors (which appears to be terribly documented) to allocate a big chunk of memory and use a subset of it? This appears to be very possible in C: static-vector-pointer has an offset parameter, which is either in bits or bytes (again, terrible documentation... I'm guessing bytes?) so the byte size given in cffi:foreign-type-size definitely can work there.
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2018-01-10T04:57:53Z aeth: (Although it looks like making an offset pointer appears to be a complicated, consing process)
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2018-01-10T05:02:01Z pierpa: looks like an implementation specific question
2018-01-10T05:02:12Z aeth: It looks like in SBCL's implementation part, you *can*, but not in general.
2018-01-10T05:02:38Z aeth: So one possibility would be to patch it to make it work in general, but another possibility is to just work with offsets.
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2018-01-10T05:02:55Z aeth: So some range
2018-01-10T05:03:32Z aeth: I think an issue with working with a range, though, is that the function could bounds check each aref, which could become expensive for a large range (e.g. 16)
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2018-01-10T05:08:15Z aeth: At least in the SBCL I am on, not only does it have an INVALID-ARRAY-INDEX-ERROR for each index, it also doesn't appear to be smart enough to remove those checks automatically if I first do a manual length check
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2018-01-10T05:12:48Z pillton: That problem is hard.
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2018-01-10T05:13:27Z pillton: I created the operator unsafe-row-major-aref for that purpose.
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2018-01-10T05:15:19Z aeth: well, now I have a problem.
2018-01-10T05:15:36Z aeth: The function is 1253 bytes when it knows the length, so inlining is out of the question
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2018-01-10T05:17:39Z aeth: Without known lengths, it's 5834 bytes.
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2018-01-10T05:18:01Z aeth: It looks like it does 143 bounds checks
2018-01-10T05:18:23Z aeth: s/143/144/
2018-01-10T05:19:26Z aeth: That could be replaced with just 3 if safety is 0, which people say never to do
2018-01-10T05:19:33Z aeth: (3 manual bounds checks)
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2018-01-10T05:20:52Z pillton: Replace the aref with unsafe-aref so the (safety 0) is limited to an area.
2018-01-10T05:21:24Z pillton: i.e. (locally (declare (safety 0)) (aref ...))
2018-01-10T05:22:11Z aeth: aha
2018-01-10T05:22:49Z aeth: that keeps the other elements of the safety, which declaring the whole function unsafe would not do
2018-01-10T05:22:58Z aeth: smart idea
2018-01-10T05:24:13Z pillton: There are references in the book "Types and Programming Languages" by Pierce which discuss the subject of automatically removing array bound checks.
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2018-01-10T05:24:44Z aeth: What's the correct way to manually do my own bounds checking?
2018-01-10T05:26:14Z pillton: Before any loops?
2018-01-10T05:26:15Z aeth: I guess if it's always a fixed size range only give the starting point of the range, and check that the  (> (length foo) (+ start range-length))
2018-01-10T05:28:29Z aeth: but should I throw an error?
2018-01-10T05:28:48Z pillton: What else would you?
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2018-01-10T05:38:58Z aeth: Well, I could do something fancier. Is there something like this? #-(safety 0)
2018-01-10T05:39:24Z aeth: because otherwise it would perform worse with global safety 0 because it forces some limited bounds checks that otherwise wouldn't be there
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2018-01-10T05:44:37Z pillton: aeth: What about? https://hastebin.com/orasicikat.lisp
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2018-01-10T05:46:10Z pillton: I don't understand the last comment.
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2018-01-10T05:48:15Z aeth: pillton: I mean, is there a way to only do something when safety > 0?
2018-01-10T05:48:43Z pillton: I think CLtL2 has support for inspecting optimize declarations.
2018-01-10T05:48:46Z aeth: Otherwise, if the program is compiled with (safety 0) I will have accidentally introduced some safety to it
2018-01-10T05:49:16Z pillton: I'm happy to live with that decision.
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2018-01-10T08:02:46Z phoe: pillton: correct, it has a mechanism for that, you can use its functions inside macros.
2018-01-10T08:02:53Z phoe: because you'll have the env object there.
2018-01-10T08:03:47Z Shinmera: borei: Any reason you're implementing yet another linalg system?
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2018-01-10T08:04:24Z Shinmera: Instead of using one of the dozens that are already out there
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2018-01-10T08:11:42Z jdz: Your regular reminder: don't use (SAFETY 0).
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2018-01-10T08:31:19Z beach: jdz: Sadly, many of the discussions here involve using Common Lisp to do unsafe things such as accessing memory directly.
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2018-01-10T08:39:09Z jasom: beach: sadly the rest of the world is unsafe and we have to interact with it
2018-01-10T08:39:34Z beach: I disagree.  That's a choice.
2018-01-10T08:39:52Z jasom: much of the time the choice is between unsafe and irrelevant
2018-01-10T08:40:52Z beach: Well, since most people think Common Lisp is irrelevant as well, then one might as well use a language that is unsafe by design, rather than trying to twist an otherwise safe language into doing unsafe things.
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2018-01-10T08:51:09Z p_l: beach: I'd argue that since our computational substrate doesn't provide some higher abstraction by itself, we should strive to give all the power we can while simultaneously making the easy problems trivial, hard problems easy, and insane problems doable, for the end user of the tool
2018-01-10T08:52:47Z beach: And we do that by turning Common Lisp into just another unsafe language?
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2018-01-10T08:56:14Z jackdaniel: while direct memory access may be considered unsafe it is only a minor bug which may be avoided (that is a case for using language which manage memory for the programmer, I'm all for that and we have a lot of mainstream languages doing that too) - avoiding this class of problems doesn't make a language safe though
2018-01-10T08:57:14Z beach: So you are saying, Common Lisp is unsafe anyway, so we might as well go the extra mile to make it totally useless?
2018-01-10T08:57:28Z jackdaniel: no, that is not what I'm saying
2018-01-10T08:57:51Z beach: Enlighten me!
2018-01-10T08:58:39Z jackdaniel: what I'm saying is that trading "unsafe" language to Common Lisp is trading one "unsafe" language to another "unsafe" language, so it is not a very good argument to switch
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2018-01-10T08:58:49Z jackdaniel: happily CL has many other very good qualities which are very appealing
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2018-01-10T09:00:20Z jackdaniel: (for instance Java doesn't have direct memory access but many people seem to dislike it and software written in it still has bugs which lead to unsafe behavior, yet some of bloat could be mitigated with macro abstraction which it lacks)
2018-01-10T09:00:48Z aeth: Imo CL is about controlling when evaluation happens
2018-01-10T09:01:48Z p_l: beach: CL is "safer" in the default state. Essentially giving "sane defaults" while at the same time providing ways to expand *when needed*
2018-01-10T09:02:01Z otwieracz: Do you have any ideas for examples how to handle file upload properly with clack/ningle?
2018-01-10T09:02:17Z p_l: beach: someone nicely described "low-level language" as one where issues irrelevant to problem being solved are important :)
2018-01-10T09:04:47Z varjag: could anyone suggest an example of code handling cl+ssl errors?
2018-01-10T09:05:10Z aeth: And I'd love not to have to use CFFI at all. If we add window, input, sound, and 3D graphics to the next version of the standard, I guess that'll get rid of a lot of reasons to use it.
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2018-01-10T09:05:20Z aeth: Shift more work to the implementers
2018-01-10T09:05:23Z varjag: i wrap it into handler-case trying to invoke continue restarts
2018-01-10T09:05:29Z varjag: but it is probably not very intelligent
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2018-01-10T09:08:42Z jackdaniel:  /another kind of safety improvement would be static typing which some could argue (me included) would be an overkill for CL/
2018-01-10T09:09:10Z aeth: jackdaniel: My Lisp is mostly typed
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2018-01-10T09:09:31Z jackdaniel: good for you ;-)
2018-01-10T09:09:45Z aeth: Because CL has sequence-generic and number-generic things, declaring types for sequences/arrays and numbers makes a big difference.
2018-01-10T09:09:54Z aeth: I don't think it really matters for anything else.
2018-01-10T09:10:10Z aeth: I think the compiler can normally tell what type is expected by what functions are being used on it, although I could be wrong.
2018-01-10T09:10:46Z aeth: I do wish it was standard that type declarations checked and aren't assumed when safety != 0, though
2018-01-10T09:10:58Z aeth: A lot of code assumes this, including mine
2018-01-10T09:11:05Z jackdaniel: aeth: by static typing I don't mean declarations but rather some enforcement from the compiler to make various informations certain and available at compilation time
2018-01-10T09:11:19Z jackdaniel: so some class of issues may be compromised before running the code
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2018-01-10T09:11:51Z aeth: jackdaniel: It could be done, there would just need to be a way to handle functions differently.
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2018-01-10T09:12:10Z jackdaniel: maybe, that's not my point though
2018-01-10T09:12:12Z fiddlerwoaroof_: That sort of thing is feasible to implement as a macro.
2018-01-10T09:12:16Z beach: jackdaniel: Static typing is known to be undecidable.
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2018-01-10T09:12:49Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof_: pretty much, you'd just wrap a function foo with (the return-type (foo ...)) or (the (values return-type-0 return-type-1) (foo ...))
2018-01-10T09:12:57Z beach: jackdaniel: So what they do with languages that enforce static typing is to make the type system so restrictive that it severely hinders programmer productivity.
2018-01-10T09:12:57Z aeth: the issue is if you recompile foo at runtime, though
2018-01-10T09:13:22Z jackdaniel: beach: that's what I mean by "overkill"
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2018-01-10T09:13:45Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-01-10T09:14:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: minion: memo for Xach: I added a new Makefile to the repository that should work without any external dependencies. Just Make -f Makefile.minimal mkapp
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2018-01-10T09:14:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-10T09:20:20Z aeth: jackdaniel: I think the future is a mix between static and dynamic typing within one language
2018-01-10T09:20:53Z aeth: Languages are slowly inching their way in that direction in different ways (of course, Lisp has always had type declarations)
2018-01-10T09:21:09Z pillton: beach: The discussion I had with aeth regarding unsafe array access was to eliminate redundant index checks.
2018-01-10T09:21:23Z p_l: aeth: having graphics et al in standard is quick way for obsolescence
2018-01-10T09:21:32Z beach: pillton: I know.
2018-01-10T09:21:47Z p_l: (look at COBOL, which has graphics in standard for example...)
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2018-01-10T09:21:52Z Shinmera: beach: I don't /want/ to do unsafe stuff, but I do want to get things done. Sometimes getting things done requires doing unsafe stuff. The benefit is that others won't have to anymore once someone has made a library that does it for them.
2018-01-10T09:21:57Z aeth: Ideally I can do one check before tons of arefs instead of one check on every aref. Very niche situation to need so many arefs, pretty much just matrix*
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2018-01-10T09:22:25Z aeth: p_l: Tech is moving more slowly now, though.
2018-01-10T09:22:45Z phoe: nowadays software becomes slow faster than hardware becomes fast
2018-01-10T09:22:54Z jackdaniel: Tech is moving more slowly now, though, and it moves backwards as a bonus! ;-)
2018-01-10T09:23:04Z aeth: p_l: Stuff from 2010 is still prefectly viable today, and for the foreseeable future.
2018-01-10T09:23:13Z aeth: In 2000, stuff from 1992 was absolutely obsolete
2018-01-10T09:23:21Z jackdaniel uses technology standarized in 1994
2018-01-10T09:23:24Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: In actuality tech is moving more like a dry cleaner. The same stuff being done over and over.
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2018-01-10T09:23:45Z Shinmera: And eventually someone changes the laundry
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2018-01-10T09:24:03Z aeth: jackdaniel: Tech totally moved backwards with apps + web.
2018-01-10T09:24:05Z beach: Shinmera: I totally agree.  Stuff like that should be isolated behind some Common Lisp abstraction layer.  The reason I uttered something in the first place, is that the discussions here are disproportionately about unsafe stuff, suggesting that not only do we hide stuff behind abstractions, but many applications programmers do it as a normal part of the application.
2018-01-10T09:24:13Z p_l: language standards take time, and just for graphics in one API family there were significant changes since 2000. Let's see, around 5 big changes?
2018-01-10T09:24:16Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: if it were just that. as an example: websockets are build on top of ton of abstractions, which when peeked at the bottom is build on top of sockets
2018-01-10T09:24:23Z jackdaniel: so it is rather a mudball which grows
2018-01-10T09:24:25Z jackdaniel: than a dry cleaner
2018-01-10T09:24:42Z Shinmera: So a clogged up washing machine? :^)
2018-01-10T09:24:52Z p_l: with toddlers playing in mud
2018-01-10T09:24:59Z pillton: beach: Ok. I don't really classify this problem as wanting to make CL programs unsafe.
2018-01-10T09:25:01Z aeth: beach: It might just be because the FFI stuff is harder and less obvious than native Lisp stuff
2018-01-10T09:25:09Z Shinmera: p_l: That even includes the unsafety angle! Perfect
2018-01-10T09:25:20Z beach: I am also very surprised that we still continue to claim that some features must be IN THE STANDARD in order to be useful, even though many people use languages without any standard whatsoever, and many others use libraries that are not part of the standard of the programming language they have chosen to use.
2018-01-10T09:25:30Z phoe: ^
2018-01-10T09:25:38Z aeth: I was joking about putting graphics in the standard
2018-01-10T09:25:48Z aeth: Apparently the COBOL people heard me and did so with a time machine, though
2018-01-10T09:26:08Z p_l: beach: true. Personally, I'd rather see more cooperation on the CDR front, as essentially "enshrining" common library code
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2018-01-10T09:26:25Z beach: p_l: That sounds very good to me.
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2018-01-10T09:26:47Z p_l: aeth: the standard even includes "visual" laying out of the UI! ;)
2018-01-10T09:27:01Z aeth: p_l: If SBCL, CCL, and ECL developers can agree on some language extension (CDR or otherwise), it will reach most users, at least in #lisp
2018-01-10T09:27:13Z aeth: But if SBCL, CCL, and ECL developers ignore it, then it probably won't reach too many people
2018-01-10T09:27:22Z Shinmera: aeth: Visual Basic would like to have a word
2018-01-10T09:27:42Z aeth: SBCL, CCl, ECL, ABCL, CLISP, CMUCL, MKCL, Clasp, and Mezzano are the only living FOSS implementations I could find.
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2018-01-10T09:28:03Z aeth: MKCL does not seem to be very popular.
2018-01-10T09:28:06Z p_l: aeth: I think a bunch of people would have to band to work on implementation of such extensions, because frankly speaking I think current set of developers already has enough on their plate
2018-01-10T09:28:15Z jackdaniel: well, many extensions are agreed upon, or have a reasonable portability layer
2018-01-10T09:28:15Z p_l: aeth: does MKCL even live anymore?
2018-01-10T09:28:21Z aeth: p_l: I am not sure
2018-01-10T09:28:24Z aeth: p_l: It seems to have updates
2018-01-10T09:28:27Z jackdaniel: p_l: it does
2018-01-10T09:28:35Z aeth: https://common-lisp.net/project/mkcl/
2018-01-10T09:28:39Z aeth: It got an update one year ago
2018-01-10T09:28:43Z p_l: ... color me surprised
2018-01-10T09:29:01Z p_l has long ago relegated it into same closet as GCL
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2018-01-10T09:29:07Z jackdaniel: since when updating website is a prime way to judge activity?
2018-01-10T09:29:28Z jackdaniel checks in his memos where he should start doing that
2018-01-10T09:29:34Z aeth: MKCL is the only one I can't access through Roswell to run tests on. Well, I can't access Clasp, either, because it has a compilation error, but I can't see that compilation error from Roswell, I just see a Lisp stack trace saying the subprocess make failed
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2018-01-10T09:29:57Z phoe: https://github.com/jcbeaudoin/MKCL/commits/master
2018-01-10T09:30:08Z jackdaniel: I've tried Roswell, dumped it after one wasteful day
2018-01-10T09:30:10Z aeth: jackdaniel: The website announced a release 2017-01-18 and 2014-07-04
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2018-01-10T09:30:27Z aeth: jackdaniel: roswell is not very stable... it has issues with its C
2018-01-10T09:30:32Z jackdaniel: read my question again – release /= activity
2018-01-10T09:30:40Z aeth: If someone made something like Roswell entirely in CL, that would be great.
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2018-01-10T09:30:56Z jackdaniel: and roswell has more issues with its abstraction, it was impossible for me to add hand-compiled implementation to it (even if it was sbcl)
2018-01-10T09:31:01Z aeth: I don't use Roswell to get access of CL in general, I use it to get access of CLs that would be hard to get access to manually.
2018-01-10T09:31:10Z p_l: use a statically-linked ECL-built roswell replacement? ;)
2018-01-10T09:31:26Z jackdaniel dives in his stuff, see you \o
2018-01-10T09:31:53Z aeth: p_l: that would help... what really is needed in general is some way to run tests on SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL, CLISP, CMUCL, and Clasp.
2018-01-10T09:32:11Z aeth: Ideally in a way that's more convenient than manually building all of those
2018-01-10T09:32:26Z p_l: there's already some harness for running tests on many implementations
2018-01-10T09:33:44Z aeth: Well, not all tests are well-defined in test suites, sometimes SLIME is useful.
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2018-01-10T09:34:35Z aeth: There might be an alternative that does SLIME + testing, I'd love to know, I'd consider using it instead if it's more stable
2018-01-10T09:34:44Z aeth: It took me an hour or so to fix Roswell last time I updated it and it broke
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2018-01-10T09:35:36Z Cymew: A community vote system really would be a nice thing to have, integrated in ql and in github.
2018-01-10T09:36:33Z pjb: write the code!
2018-01-10T09:36:54Z pjb: (vote '(write the code) 'Cymew)
2018-01-10T09:37:22Z pjb: with (ql:quickload :cymew-vote) (use-package :cymew-vote)
2018-01-10T09:37:35Z aeth: p_l: and, yeah, it would have to take a lot of coordination (and perhaps one person who knows the internals of several implementations) to get some extensions
2018-01-10T09:37:49Z aeth: Cymew: voting on what?
2018-01-10T09:37:52Z Cymew: :)
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2018-01-10T09:38:07Z p_l: rubygems-like backend could be nice as well, to extend ql
2018-01-10T09:38:07Z pjb: (cymew-vote:open-elections) --> ((write the code) …)
2018-01-10T09:38:31Z Cymew: aeth: "This system is good and alive -> 5 stars" or "This system is not maintained -> 1 star".
2018-01-10T09:38:54Z Cymew: Something you could use when quickloading to see if you need to bother.
2018-01-10T09:39:24Z aeth: Cymew: only if there's a second star system for documentation
2018-01-10T09:39:34Z Cymew: I actually started to read the quicklisp code to figure out how to add features to it, then a paying job came around...
2018-01-10T09:39:53Z aeth: I would say with the majority of libraries I have to read the code because there's essentially 0 documentation
2018-01-10T09:40:10Z pjb: yea, paying jobs, the curse of all good thing. Promote Universal Basic Income!
2018-01-10T09:40:11Z Cymew: aeth: I think the exact details could be discussed, but yes I agree that is very important.
2018-01-10T09:41:02Z aeth: Rating based on documentation would be tricky, though, because do you reset it if it adds documentation?
2018-01-10T09:41:08Z jackdaniel: that sounds like a way for people who don't do to say people who do what to do ;-)
2018-01-10T09:41:10Z beach: Cymew: I think a voting system is an excellent idea.  That's the main problem with finding something appropriate, namely knowing the opinions of others.
2018-01-10T09:42:09Z aeth: jackdaniel: but if there's a 5-star library with 1-star documentation, that gives someone looking for something to do a good suggestion of what they can do
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2018-01-10T09:42:27Z aeth: I don't think people are going to reject documentation patches unless they're incorrect
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2018-01-10T09:45:37Z aeth: On the subject of documentation, how many public classes have :documentation filled out?
2018-01-10T09:45:43Z aeth: probably not many
2018-01-10T09:47:34Z Shinmera can't wait for the inevitable drama of people getting upset over their libraries getting low ratings
2018-01-10T09:48:34Z Shinmera: aeth: I document all types.
2018-01-10T09:48:54Z Shinmera: So you won't find (:documentation "foo") in my code, but that doesn't mean it isn't documented
2018-01-10T09:50:18Z jackdaniel: I rate it 2-stars, wait for `(:documentation …)` patches ;-)
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2018-01-10T09:55:01Z _death: we could inflict ratings on other languages :d
2018-01-10T09:55:18Z aeth: 2/10, cannot evaluate at read time
2018-01-10T09:57:26Z phoe: I go for #'(setf documentation) sometimes
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2018-01-10T10:54:40Z shaftoe: there's a voting system already... the library downloads per month or how many other libraries depend on it
2018-01-10T10:54:49Z shaftoe: popularity might be a better word
2018-01-10T10:55:16Z shaftoe: you might give split-sequence 1 star, but it's one of the more heavily depended on and downloaded libs
2018-01-10T10:55:20Z shaftoe: likewise alexandria
2018-01-10T10:55:38Z phoe: alexandria actually has docs
2018-01-10T10:55:45Z phoe: (even though it's outdated)
2018-01-10T10:55:56Z shaftoe: alexandria draft manual from whenever
2018-01-10T10:56:48Z Shinmera: shaftoe: That doesn't reflect popularity nor how good a system is
2018-01-10T10:56:59Z Shinmera: The download stats are heavily falsified by CI systems
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2018-01-10T10:57:08Z shaftoe: point taken
2018-01-10T10:57:53Z Shinmera: Or, well, not falsified, but tainted.
2018-01-10T10:58:00Z shaftoe: one example where a popularity/rating system would be handy, was with graph libraries... there's at least 3 on quicklisp with various licenses and featuresets
2018-01-10T10:58:17Z shaftoe: logging would be another
2018-01-10T10:58:30Z Shinmera: https://i.imgur.com/dsm1Eg9.png
2018-01-10T10:58:32Z Shinmera: err
2018-01-10T10:58:35Z Shinmera: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/comparison-of-lisp-logging-libraries
2018-01-10T10:58:52Z shaftoe: which reminds me of another post, i think from same site
2018-01-10T10:58:55Z shaftoe: on json libs
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2018-01-10T10:59:08Z Shinmera: Unfortunately the above is already quite a bit outdated
2018-01-10T10:59:08Z shaftoe: json, http, logging, etc
2018-01-10T10:59:11Z Shinmera: at least when it comes to Verbose
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2018-01-10T11:04:46Z shaftoe: likewise, updated for 2018 comparison articles would be good material for any aspiring lisp blogger
2018-01-10T11:05:39Z shaftoe: a "how to benchmark lisp packages" would also be useful
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2018-01-10T11:06:11Z Shinmera: Benchmarking is the same problem in any language. The tricky bit is finding representative samples.
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2018-01-10T11:06:51Z ebzzry: In SLIME, is there a way to muffle the warnings caused by `sb-ext:*on-package-variance*`
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2018-01-10T11:21:46Z Shinmera: The easiest way is to not vary your packages.
2018-01-10T11:22:13Z aeth: There are some libraries I don't like that I download anyway because they're dependencies of dependencies of dependencies of dependencies.
2018-01-10T11:22:52Z aeth: As in, I would never actually select those libraries for a project. I won't name names, though.
2018-01-10T11:23:11Z aeth: So download count isn't that useful
2018-01-10T11:23:21Z Shinmera: If they're any of mine I'd be happy to know
2018-01-10T11:23:49Z phoe: ditto
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2018-01-10T11:25:07Z Shinmera: Mostly because I can't wait to have my self degradation validated.
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2018-01-10T11:30:31Z pjb: Shinmera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FOU_aD00Sk
2018-01-10T11:30:52Z aeth: Nah, most of the libraries I don't like were from the 2000-2010 era of Lisp, possibly without even having any updates since that time. Usually unpatched for years. Probably abandoned.
2018-01-10T11:31:11Z aeth: Library quality is higher these days.
2018-01-10T11:32:00Z Shinmera: Aw maaan
2018-01-10T11:32:21Z pjb: Shinmera: you live dangerously…
2018-01-10T11:32:31Z Shinmera: pjb: Hm?
2018-01-10T11:32:51Z pjb: With your pizza pictures!
2018-01-10T11:33:04Z Shinmera: Ah. That was taken from a "worst pizza ever" thread
2018-01-10T11:33:20Z Shinmera: Anyway, pizza crimes are probably for #lispcafe
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2018-01-10T11:36:24Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: such as ?
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2018-01-10T11:38:05Z aeth: I'll name one because it's fairly common and because it's bad and because I've criticized it here before. A bit newer than the time range I was talking about. cl-json.
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2018-01-10T11:39:50Z aeth: Its default settings are just so bad, e.g. nil <-> null and nil <- false
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2018-01-10T11:40:23Z aeth: Unless its documentation is wrong. I'll test it out since I already have it downloaded
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2018-01-10T11:41:23Z aeth: Nope, nil produces "null". Someone honestly sat down and thought generating "null" was a more reasonable default than "false".
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2018-01-10T11:43:08Z aeth: It has good documentation, though
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2018-01-10T12:29:16Z schweers: quick question: given a file-descriptor (on linux), can I create a common lisp file-stream?
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2018-01-10T12:32:58Z jackdaniel: yes, but not portably
2018-01-10T12:33:14Z jackdaniel: it may be called for instance ext:make-fd-stream
2018-01-10T12:33:28Z schweers: so I’ll have to write code for each implementation I’d like to use?
2018-01-10T12:33:39Z jackdaniel: check out how its done in osicat or usocket (don't remember exactly)
2018-01-10T12:33:49Z jackdaniel: yes, but it is basically a oneliner for each implementation
2018-01-10T12:33:58Z jackdaniel: you may create trivial-fd-streams portability layer
2018-01-10T12:34:31Z schweers: oh, I may have just found such a thing: https://github.com/cffi-posix/fd-stream
2018-01-10T12:34:31Z schweers:  
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2018-01-10T13:31:26Z tazjin: has anyone here used this JWT/JOSE implementation? https://github.com/fukamachi/jose
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2018-01-10T13:38:25Z Cymew: Nope
2018-01-10T13:39:42Z Cymew: I do note a distinct shortage of docs, as per our earlier conversation in this channel. Have seen worse, though.
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2018-01-10T13:44:47Z tazjin: Cymew: assuming you're responding to me, the docs shortage isn't really the problem (API is very straightforward), it just doesn't quite seem to do what I expect :P
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2018-01-10T13:48:52Z Cymew: That would be a problem. Myself, I have not used it. The author have written quite a few systems, and not all easy to use. I suspect overexposure to ruby, considering how some of the web stuff looks like.
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2018-01-10T14:36:43Z asarch: Today is Knuth's birthday
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2018-01-10T14:44:23Z Shinmera: For those using the Plaster paste service <http://plaster.tymoon.eu> there's now an Emacs extension for added convenience. https://github.com/Shirakumo/plaster#emacs-integration
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2018-01-10T14:53:27Z makomo: fuka
2018-01-10T14:53:34Z makomo: woopsie...
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2018-01-10T15:29:34Z phoe: machi
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2018-01-10T15:33:07Z sjl: flip214: good news: the vlime author appears to be fine https://twitter.com/l04m33/status/951091266187493376
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2018-01-10T15:33:16Z sjl: flip214: bad news is that they don't intend to continue working on vlime
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2018-01-10T15:45:27Z crsc: Nice to know. I installed vlime yesterday and it works fine for me. Hopefully he will come back in the future.
2018-01-10T15:46:08Z dlowe: I suspect someone else should probably pick it up
2018-01-10T15:46:13Z dlowe: Maybe YOU
2018-01-10T15:46:45Z sjl: It's pretty well documented, and the code is pretty clean from what I remember.
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2018-01-10T16:21:42Z makomo: hm wait, sjl is steve losh? :-)
2018-01-10T16:21:54Z sjl: yeah
2018-01-10T16:22:13Z makomo: hah, hi there :D, i watched your (old?) stream about running lisp on an arudino and solving some PE problems
2018-01-10T16:22:21Z sjl: I generally use my initials for more tech-related things like github/irc and longer names for non tech stuff like photos
2018-01-10T16:22:26Z makomo: and also saw that cool-retro-term terminal emulator there
2018-01-10T16:22:36Z sjl: Oh, cool.  I need to get back to streaming.  Haven't done any over the holidays.
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2018-01-10T17:26:30Z jmercouris: good evening
2018-01-10T17:28:42Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
2018-01-10T17:30:34Z phoe: Hey everyone
2018-01-10T17:30:43Z phoe: (that was a very short hey, since I have to run now)
2018-01-10T17:32:14Z jmercouris: hello, good bye :D
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2018-01-10T18:14:55Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-10T19:26:59Z makomo: if i have a file with, in order, some defclasses, some defuns and in the end some defconstants whose value forms create instances of the previously introduced classes
2018-01-10T19:27:15Z makomo: what's the reason i get an error message from SBCL?
2018-01-10T19:27:30Z makomo: are the defconstants not evaluated only once everything before in the file has been evaluated?
2018-01-10T19:27:34Z phoe: makomo: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
2018-01-10T19:27:45Z phoe: put your defclasses and defuns inside this eval-when
2018-01-10T19:27:56Z Shinmera: clhs defconstant
2018-01-10T19:27:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcon.htm
2018-01-10T19:28:01Z ebdreger: makomo: classess and functions not available until done processing file, unless you wrap with ... what phoe said.
2018-01-10T19:28:04Z makomo: phoe: i looked at that but i would like to know what the underlying problem is
2018-01-10T19:28:21Z ebdreger: makomo: compile time versus load time versus execution time :)
2018-01-10T19:28:23Z Shinmera: "An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both."
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2018-01-10T19:28:35Z Shinmera: Whereas classes only exist at load-time
2018-01-10T19:28:37Z makomo: Shinmera: i saw that too
2018-01-10T19:28:43Z makomo: ah, that's what i was missing
2018-01-10T19:28:49Z Shinmera: Also defconstant is a bad idea anyway
2018-01-10T19:28:53Z Shinmera: just use defvar
2018-01-10T19:28:54Z phoe: especially with classes
2018-01-10T19:29:00Z ebdreger nods at shinmera
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2018-01-10T19:29:12Z phoe: since you'll be able to arbitrarily mess with the instance's slots anyway.
2018-01-10T19:29:17Z ebdreger: or use alexandria's define-constant (or similar)
2018-01-10T19:29:30Z makomo: that's a good point i guess
2018-01-10T19:29:31Z phoe: only the reference to the instance will be constant, the slots themselves won't.
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2018-01-10T19:29:33Z ebdreger: repeated invocation of defconstant from repl will give you pain
2018-01-10T19:29:43Z phoe: this too - it sucks for development
2018-01-10T19:29:45Z makomo: yeah, even thought i don't play on mutating the instances afterwards
2018-01-10T19:29:47Z ebdreger: (for certain data types)
2018-01-10T19:29:58Z makomo: yeah, it does, i have to choose the appropriate restart all the time
2018-01-10T19:31:06Z ebdreger: or use an alternative that checks equality using something a little more permissive
2018-01-10T19:31:08Z Shinmera: The points at which using defconstant is a good idea are exceedingly rare
2018-01-10T19:31:12Z makomo: is there some kind of a summary/description of the different phases that lisp has in one place?
2018-01-10T19:31:17Z ebdreger: cf.: eq versus eql versus equal versus equalp
2018-01-10T19:31:31Z makomo: i have a vague idea of what they are, but i would like a more in-depth explanation
2018-01-10T19:32:06Z Shinmera: There's four phases: read-time, compile-time, load-time, and execution-time
2018-01-10T19:32:22Z Shinmera: read-time turns strings into expressions
2018-01-10T19:32:37Z Shinmera: compile-time turns expressions into.. well, compiled objects
2018-01-10T19:33:15Z Shinmera: load-time happens during the loading of a file, after the file has already been compiled, or a form has been compiled
2018-01-10T19:33:26Z Shinmera: and execution time happens when code is evaluated.
2018-01-10T19:33:30Z makomo: does "loading" refers specifically to loading files?
2018-01-10T19:33:34Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-01-10T19:33:34Z phoe: (also macroexpansion-time that runs during compile-time whenever a macro needs to be expanded)
2018-01-10T19:33:38Z makomo: or can you say that a form is being loaded?
2018-01-10T19:33:40Z makomo: ah
2018-01-10T19:33:51Z Shinmera: A "form" is an expression meant to be evaluated
2018-01-10T19:34:01Z Shinmera: So a form can undergo loading, I suppose.
2018-01-10T19:34:09Z phoe: clhs load
2018-01-10T19:34:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2018-01-10T19:34:24Z phoe: clhs glossary/load
2018-01-10T19:34:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#load
2018-01-10T19:34:38Z phoe: hm, the spec begs to disagree. it seems that loading refers only to files.
2018-01-10T19:34:44Z makomo: >to cause the code contained in the file to be executed.
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2018-01-10T19:35:03Z Shinmera: loading is not the same as load-time
2018-01-10T19:35:03Z makomo: so loading a file entails reading the file, compiling the file and executing the file then?
2018-01-10T19:35:19Z Shinmera: only for source files
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2018-01-10T19:35:38Z Shinmera: loading a FASL won't incur compilation
2018-01-10T19:35:40Z makomo: oh i see. you're thinking of stuff liek fasls?
2018-01-10T19:35:44Z makomo: hmm right
2018-01-10T19:35:47Z makomo: like*
2018-01-10T19:36:05Z ebdreger: (it doesn't make life simpler that the compile and load phases are often blurred together by one's environment)
2018-01-10T19:36:08Z Shinmera: loading will cause either one of the following phases to happen: (read compile load execute) or (load execute)
2018-01-10T19:36:42Z Shinmera: While compile-file will cause (read compile) to happen
2018-01-10T19:36:57Z Shinmera: Note that things get more complicated still when you consider COMPILE and EVAL
2018-01-10T19:37:58Z ebdreger nods
2018-01-10T19:38:04Z makomo: yeah :^(, that's why it would be nice if the whole thing was described somewhere in one place
2018-01-10T19:38:05Z Shinmera: COMPILE will perform (compile load), though here the load is only relevant for load-time-value.
2018-01-10T19:38:22Z Shinmera: And EVAL will perform (compile load execute).
2018-01-10T19:38:24Z ebdreger: rule of thumb that makes life a little easier: don't use COMPILE or EVAL without good reason (usually dynamically-generated code that can't be created any other way)
2018-01-10T19:38:30Z Shinmera: Though EVAL only has to perform "minimal compilation"
2018-01-10T19:38:37Z Shinmera: So it can take shortcuts
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2018-01-10T19:39:17Z makomo: so what does load-time actually do?
2018-01-10T19:39:28Z makomo: load the function/class/etc. defs into the lisp image?
2018-01-10T19:39:34Z Shinmera: It "links" the file into the environment
2018-01-10T19:39:42Z Shinmera: or the definitions rather
2018-01-10T19:40:03Z phoe: ebdreger: I actually use compile in places like (compile nil (lambda (foo) (frob foo bar)))
2018-01-10T19:40:07Z makomo: so, if i had for example, a defun, followed by a top-level (+ 2 2) expression, followed by another defun
2018-01-10T19:40:19Z makomo: first the defuns would be loaded, and only then the (+ 2 2) expr eval'd?
2018-01-10T19:40:24Z phoe: where a lambda would do just as well, but compiled code is compiled code
2018-01-10T19:40:37Z ebdreger: phoe: ditto
2018-01-10T19:40:59Z Shinmera: makomo: depends on whether you're loading a source file or a fasl file
2018-01-10T19:41:08Z makomo: Shinmera: let's say it's a source file
2018-01-10T19:41:11Z Shinmera: makomo: in the source file case, forms are processed in order and go through all phases one by one
2018-01-10T19:41:18Z makomo: actually, i'm interested in both cases
2018-01-10T19:42:00Z Shinmera: Anyway, defuns are also evaluated.
2018-01-10T19:42:03Z makomo: Shinmera: oh, so there's an actual ordering. i thought that there might not be after what i've heard now (limiting ourselves to source files)
2018-01-10T19:42:41Z Shinmera: CL is rather strict about evaluation order in almost all things
2018-01-10T19:42:47Z Shinmera: (Thank god for that, too)
2018-01-10T19:43:26Z Shinmera: I'm not sure about the constraints of order for the load-time of a FASL.
2018-01-10T19:43:36Z Shinmera: But I think it has to be in order as well
2018-01-10T19:44:18Z Shinmera: One of the puzzling things to understand is that each phase can cause evaluation to happen
2018-01-10T19:44:37Z Shinmera: So, even if we speak of "load-time", there's probably just code being evaluated during it.
2018-01-10T19:45:03Z makomo: confusing :/
2018-01-10T19:45:46Z Shinmera: Right. If you want to peek into the insanity of it all, read Fare's blog post on eval-when. http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
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2018-01-10T19:47:05Z makomo: i'll give it a go
2018-01-10T19:47:22Z ebdreger: you could create a simple file: https://pastebin.com/ikesd8bv
2018-01-10T19:47:26Z ebdreger: and play with it
2018-01-10T19:47:58Z makomo: also not a bad idea, thanks
2018-01-10T19:48:07Z ebdreger: there also are fun tidbits like sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die that can help you distinguish the stages
2018-01-10T19:48:10Z Shinmera: Don't let it confuse you too much. Most of what you'll ever need to know is that some top level forms might not take effect until later, so you have to wrap them into (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ..) to make their effects available at all times.
2018-01-10T19:49:04Z phoe: http://kpreid.livejournal.com/14713.html
2018-01-10T19:49:05Z phoe: woah
2018-01-10T19:49:12Z Shinmera: And you should know about load-time-value to emit constants without them needing to be FASL-dumpable.
2018-01-10T19:49:40Z makomo: i usually don't like using something without understanding the details of how it works. sometimes that's good, sometimes it leads me into a rabit hole that's hard to get out of
2018-01-10T19:49:59Z Shinmera: Well, I mean, compilation and evaluation semantics touch everything
2018-01-10T19:50:09Z Shinmera: But you really don't need to understand them in detail to use Lisp
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2018-01-10T19:52:36Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm not the best to talk to about this either-- I feel unsure about the exact workings of some parts. beach and Bike might know better.
2018-01-10T19:53:07Z Bike: huh what
2018-01-10T19:53:53Z Shinmera: We're talking about the various evaluation times and their precise workings.
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2018-01-10T19:55:24Z pmc_: What makes a string not a simple vector?
2018-01-10T19:55:45Z Shinmera: clhs simple-vector
2018-01-10T19:55:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm
2018-01-10T19:55:47Z Xach: pmc_: it is specialized for characters. simple vectors are not specialized.
2018-01-10T19:55:47Z minion: Xach, memo from fiddlerwoaroof_: I added a new Makefile to the repository that should work without any external dependencies. Just Make -f Makefile.minimal mkapp
2018-01-10T19:56:09Z pmc_: ok, thanks!
2018-01-10T19:56:20Z Xach: ...there should be a nice punchline for that seutp.
2018-01-10T19:57:00Z Shinmera: There are simple-strings, though
2018-01-10T19:57:16Z pmc_: clhs simple-string
2018-01-10T19:57:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_st.htm
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2018-01-10T19:58:45Z phoe: one of my most recent frustrations with the standard is related to the naming of simple-arrays and simple-vectors
2018-01-10T19:59:06Z phoe: ...and simple-strings
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2018-01-10T19:59:31Z Shinmera: well, simple-vectors not allowing a specialisation is just weird in my opinion
2018-01-10T19:59:47Z phoe: for some reason, (simple-array type (n)) does NOT equate (simple-vector n)
2018-01-10T20:00:02Z Shinmera: like, the point of it being simple seems to me to allow optimisations
2018-01-10T20:00:02Z sjl: it is a little odd that vectors are one-dimensional arrays, but a one-dimensional simple-array is not necessarily a simple-vector
2018-01-10T20:00:03Z phoe: which would be God damn logical
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2018-01-10T20:00:19Z Shinmera: sjl: But it's still a vector!
2018-01-10T20:00:22Z phoe: #justlispthings
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2018-01-10T20:00:24Z sjl: yep
2018-01-10T20:00:26Z sjl: it is
2018-01-10T20:00:30Z sjl: just not a simple- one
2018-01-10T20:00:50Z sjl: naming is hard
2018-01-10T20:01:04Z rme: after tag checking, svref is a single instruction (on x86, anyway)
2018-01-10T20:02:33Z phoe: I think it's a single pointer dereference
2018-01-10T20:02:48Z phoe: because you have a vector of objects of type T
2018-01-10T20:03:02Z phoe: so you check basic tags like ones for fixnums and such, and then dereference
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2018-01-10T20:03:42Z Shinmera: Sure, but point being if you have an immediate type you don't need to tag check, making it even faster.
2018-01-10T20:04:18Z Shinmera: Or rather, you wouldn't need to tag check if you had the element-type information
2018-01-10T20:04:28Z pjb: makomo: in any case, it is not useful to use defconstant to bind instances to variables.
2018-01-10T20:04:32Z phoe: yep, but simple-vectors are built around the idea of *not* having element-type information.
2018-01-10T20:04:40Z pjb: makomo: notice that defconstant defines (constant) _variables_.
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2018-01-10T20:05:45Z makomo: pjb: yup, i'll be changing my code
2018-01-10T20:05:46Z pjb: makomo: the point of defconstant is to tell the compiler that it may generate the value as immediate value (thus making copies of the value) in the binary instructions.  Therefore it's only useful for values that can be immediate in the native instruction set, ie. basically integers and characters.
2018-01-10T20:06:07Z pjb: (perhaps also floating-points). It's not useful to use defconstant on other types.
2018-01-10T20:06:31Z pjb: In general, defparameter is more useful.
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2018-01-10T20:39:36Z borei: is it possible to define setf for entire object, not for particular slot, but entire object ?
2018-01-10T20:40:06Z _death: (setf (entire-object object) new-value)
2018-01-10T20:42:31Z pjb: Of course.
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2018-01-10T20:42:48Z borei: hmm, not what im looking for, better to provide example
2018-01-10T20:43:13Z borei: i have object of type matrix (for example)
2018-01-10T20:43:21Z borei: i'd like to have
2018-01-10T20:43:34Z pjb: Notice that the semantics of the slots is dependent on the class of the instance
2018-01-10T20:43:44Z borei: (setf matrix 5.0d0) - all elements of the matrix =5
2018-01-10T20:44:30Z aeth: borei: what you probably want it something like (setf (matrix-value matrix) 5.0d0)
2018-01-10T20:44:58Z borei: so it will sort of fake slot ?
2018-01-10T20:44:58Z aeth: Although it's confusing to have a setf function without an equivalent regular function and I'm not sure what a regular function would do by default.
2018-01-10T20:45:08Z aeth: You can have a writer without a reader
2018-01-10T20:45:10Z pjb: slots can contain immutable data (that can be copied), or references to immutable data (the reference can be copied, thus sharing the immutable data), or references to mutable data (that may or may not be copied, thus sharing or not sharing the mutable state), or also the may contain derived data or cached data, that is computed and updated "automatically".
2018-01-10T20:45:35Z pjb: borei: therefore we cannot give you a generic method to copy the slots from one instance to another: you have to provide it yourself!
2018-01-10T20:45:53Z borei: i got idea
2018-01-10T20:45:54Z phoe: borei: what do you mean, entire object?
2018-01-10T20:46:04Z phoe: setf is for setting places, not objects.
2018-01-10T20:46:07Z _death: you can also have (set-all-elements matrix 5.0d0)
2018-01-10T20:46:16Z borei: yep yep
2018-01-10T20:46:22Z aeth: Don't do that one
2018-01-10T20:46:29Z aeth: A writer makes perfect sense imo
2018-01-10T20:46:31Z pjb: ALERT: Edi Weitz took over cdr.eurolisp.org!
2018-01-10T20:46:31Z phoe: you can't modify whole objects in-place - you can only modify references. and places are references.
2018-01-10T20:46:39Z aeth: I use writers for strange things.
2018-01-10T20:46:49Z pjb: borei: there's a CDR specifying a copying generic function.
2018-01-10T20:46:51Z phoe: pjb: is it wat yet?
2018-01-10T20:47:06Z pjb: What does "wat" mean?
2018-01-10T20:47:19Z phoe: uh
2018-01-10T20:47:21Z phoe: is it war yet?
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2018-01-10T20:47:57Z jmercouris: I still don't know what you mean, even with the correction
2018-01-10T20:47:59Z pjb: phoe: No, war is over, the USA won, and Europe is vasal.  We can be raped anytime, and this occurs all the time
2018-01-10T20:48:02Z aeth: borei: If you write an accessor that only works on one value you can use with-accessors just like a CLOS accessor, and then you could do (setf matrix 5.0d0) while really calling the accessor
2018-01-10T20:48:11Z jmercouris: pjb: vassal, isn't that a french word?
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2018-01-10T20:48:26Z aeth: borei: If you write an accessor that works on more than one value, you'll have to manually use symbol-macrolet yourself, but the same principle applies
2018-01-10T20:48:49Z pjb: jmercouris: nope: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vassal
2018-01-10T20:48:52Z aeth: (technically the setf accessor really has one more value than it looks like it has, though, the new value)
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2018-01-10T20:50:00Z jmercouris: pjb: "Middle English, borrowed from Anglo-French, borrowed from Medieval Latin vassallus" - it's kinda french :P
2018-01-10T20:50:31Z pjb: jmercouris: Not my fault if English is deficient (or should I say inexistant).
2018-01-10T20:51:05Z pjb: The fact that we don't write French here is also a hint that we lost.
2018-01-10T20:51:30Z jmercouris: pjb: something something lingua franca counting eggs too soon
2018-01-10T20:51:51Z jmercouris: there's a lot of french speaking countries that refuse to learn english, don't feel so bad :P
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2018-01-10T20:52:20Z jmercouris: i like the people that suggest that we'll all be speaking chinese, like population of speakers is the only criteria for adoption of language, nevermind the impossible writing and pronounciation
2018-01-10T20:52:56Z aeth: The heart of with-accessors or something similar to it is (let ((thing (gensym))) `(let ((,thing ,object)) (declare (ignorable ,thing)) (symbol-macrolet #|fancy stuff|#) ,@body)))
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2018-01-10T20:53:13Z aeth: (If you want to write your own symbol-macrolets for fancier accessors)
2018-01-10T20:53:24Z aeth: But this sort of thing only works if you stick to accessors
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2018-01-10T20:55:31Z pjb: jmercouris: Chinese, not because of the population, but because of the economic might.  The USA is falling fast.
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2018-01-10T20:55:56Z jmercouris: yeah, that's not enough, good luck learning chinese
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2018-01-10T20:56:55Z aeth: pjb: That doesn't take into account that French was still the lingua franca after France stopped being the superpower, during pretty much the entire era of the British Empire's dominance
2018-01-10T20:56:56Z _death: chinual already has a meaning
2018-01-10T20:57:41Z aeth: English afaik really became the world language after 1945, with the primary countries of the competing languages of French and German in ruins
2018-01-10T20:59:32Z aeth: (Although even then, Russian was a competing world language through the Cold War.)
2018-01-10T21:00:16Z pjb: aeth: that's the difference between British empire and USA empire :-)
2018-01-10T21:00:25Z jmercouris: Russian was a language forced onto all of their satellite countries, I wouldn't say it was "competing" so much as "coerced"
2018-01-10T21:00:48Z aeth: well, yeah
2018-01-10T21:00:55Z jmercouris: as much as english sucks, it's an easy language to speak incorrectly and still be understood, the same cannot be said of most other languages
2018-01-10T21:00:55Z pjb: France hasn't been beaten by the United Kingdom. Europe has been beaten by the USA.
2018-01-10T21:01:11Z phoe: #lispcafe
2018-01-10T21:01:52Z pjb: jmercouris: speak incorrectly, and be understood incorrectly.
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2018-01-10T21:45:11Z jmercouris: anybody working on some els papers they could use some help on?
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2018-01-10T22:14:17Z Shinmera: Wish I was
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2018-01-11T01:55:59Z madpengu: So is append destructive or not?
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2018-01-11T01:57:35Z Xach: madpengu: not
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2018-01-11T01:58:56Z ebrasca: Hi
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2018-01-11T02:08:29Z madpengu: Append is supposed to reuse lists, yeah?
2018-01-11T02:08:36Z madpengu: I don't seem to get that behavior.
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2018-01-11T02:09:17Z madpengu: (defparameter *a* (list 1 2 3)) (defparameter *b* (list 4 5 6)) (defparameter *c* (append *a* *b*)) (setf (first *a*) 55)
2018-01-11T02:09:25Z madpengu: For *c*, I still get 1 2 3 4 5 6
2018-01-11T02:09:25Z madpengu: wot.
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2018-01-11T02:15:22Z madpengu: Okay, figured, append is only allowed to reuse the last structure, not just any one of them
2018-01-11T02:15:33Z madpengu: So making changes to *b* does change the value of *c* as expected
2018-01-11T02:15:35Z madpengu: rookie mistake
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2018-01-11T02:18:44Z dmiles: right, you'd still need to copy-list to detangle them
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2018-01-11T02:20:08Z pjb: madpengu: append is not destructive, but the result shares the last argument, so if you mutate the result, it could be destructive!
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2018-01-11T02:20:36Z madpengu: yeah, I suppose append is not destructive but recycling?
2018-01-11T02:20:43Z madpengu: which means it could be destructive.
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2018-01-11T02:20:56Z pjb: (let ((a (list 1 2 3)) (b (list 4 5 6)) (c (list 7 8 9)))  (tailp c (append a b c))) #| --> t |#
2018-01-11T02:21:00Z madpengu: I was just confusing about what is reused, it seems only the last structure, no the first one.
2018-01-11T02:21:47Z dmiles: if it reused the first structure then it would accidently modify the first structure
2018-01-11T02:21:52Z pjb: Notice that this is what lets you use append to build a dotted list:  (append '(1 2 3) 4) #| --> (1 2 3 . 4) |#
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2018-01-11T02:23:15Z dmiles: (otherwise indeed it may have been nice to have had it resue the first structure to save space)
2018-01-11T02:23:31Z pjb: use nconc for that.
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2018-01-11T02:23:38Z madpengu: What is the difference of that with (cons (1 2 3) 4)?
2018-01-11T02:23:44Z pjb: (let ((a (list 1 2 3)) (b (list 4 5 6)) (c (list 7 8 9)))  (tailp a (nconc a b c))) #| --> t |#
2018-01-11T02:23:55Z pjb: (cons '(1 2 3) 4) #| --> ((1 2 3) . 4) |#
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2018-01-11T02:24:13Z pjb: I hope the difference jumps to your eyes!
2018-01-11T02:24:55Z madpengu: Hmmm. I think I get it.
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2018-01-11T02:29:00Z pjb: madpengu: you can also use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list (cons '(1 2 3) 4))
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2018-01-11T02:41:10Z madpengu: pjb: How do I install that with ql?
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2018-01-11T02:49:53Z jmercouris: madpengu: you'd place it in your local projects
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2018-01-11T03:02:51Z jasom: madpengu: (car (cons '(1 2 3) 4)) ;=> (1 2 3)
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2018-01-11T03:45:10Z ebrasca: What are streams in common lisp?
2018-01-11T03:48:12Z ebrasca: In http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/21_aa.htm
2018-01-11T03:48:41Z ebrasca: is object equal to atom?
2018-01-11T03:52:33Z pillton: Stream objects are atoms.
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2018-01-11T03:54:30Z ebrasca: pillton: thanks
2018-01-11T03:54:47Z ebrasca: pillton: I try to implement open-using-host.
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2018-01-11T03:56:21Z pillton: I don't understand why your question is related to implementing open-using-host.
2018-01-11T03:56:55Z pillton: (subtypep 'stream 'atom) => T
2018-01-11T03:57:20Z drmeister: Does (unread nil <stream>) make any sense?
2018-01-11T03:57:59Z drmeister: I realize that nil is not a character - but I have some code (not my own) that is invoking unread with nil.
2018-01-11T03:58:06Z pillton: unread-char?
2018-01-11T03:58:17Z ebrasca: I need streams to make open-using-host and I don't understand how to make streams.
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2018-01-11T04:09:27Z jasom: ebrasca: every object in lisp is either a cons or an atom.  The type atom is literally the same as the type (not atom)
2018-01-11T04:10:30Z jasom: ebrasca: it's a bit silly that vectors and hash-tables are atoms, but the atom/cons distinction predates lisps having those
2018-01-11T04:11:05Z jasom: Correction: *The type atom is literally the same as the type (not cons)
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2018-01-17T21:27:22Z jasom: so a file with (defun foo () ) (defun bar () (foo)) the call to foo in bar may be inlined, absent any other declarations
2018-01-17T21:28:10Z sjl: related: is there any way to set a function's inline status back to the default?
2018-01-17T21:28:27Z jasom: sjl: no portable way that I've ever been able to find
2018-01-17T21:28:39Z sjl: (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo ...) (declaim (notinline foo)) makes foo inlineable but prevents any compiler macros
2018-01-17T21:29:18Z rumbler31: so without explicitly specifying notinline on foo when loading the file, given the default inline state, a conforming implementation will warn/error when foo is redefined?
2018-01-17T21:29:50Z jasom: rumbler31: it will not
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2018-01-17T21:30:40Z rumbler31: then.. I guess I still don't know what you meant to say with your second sentence
2018-01-17T21:30:47Z jasom: rumbler31: the assumption is that you know what you are doing if you redefine functions unless something very obviously is wrong (it was declared inline, you have two definitions of the same function in the same file)
2018-01-17T21:31:27Z jasom: rumbler31: a conforming implementation is allowed to assume that a function defined in file X has a fixed definition for the entire body of file X.
2018-01-17T21:32:04Z rumbler31: what does fixed definition mean? s.t. re-invocations of defun are unspecified behavior?
2018-01-17T21:32:10Z jasom: rumbler31: correct
2018-01-17T21:32:45Z rumbler31: oh..
2018-01-17T21:33:07Z jasom: rumbler31: in practice it usually just means that the redefinition won't take effect, but I suppose it could have safety implications if the type of the function were inferred (not sure if sbcl does this).
2018-01-17T21:34:09Z jasom: For the purposes of incremental development using C-c C-k will usually mean that all functions not declared inline will work right (since you recompile the entire file).
2018-01-17T21:35:13Z jasom: obviously macros (and compiler macros) have a different set of rules
2018-01-17T21:35:47Z rumbler31: can you go into the last sentence briefly?
2018-01-17T21:36:18Z jasom: regarding macros?
2018-01-17T21:36:24Z rumbler31: yes
2018-01-17T21:37:03Z jasom: macros definitions are invoked when the macro is expanded.  When compiling this is the same as compile time.
2018-01-17T21:37:27Z jasom: so if you change a macro, there is no magic that finds all places in which it was expanded and recompiles them.
2018-01-17T21:37:50Z jasom: you should use asdf if you want this to work (it tracks dependencies on a file-level basis)
2018-01-17T21:40:01Z rumbler31: so the part about macros not being re-evaluated I understand. I will ponder how that affects function redefinition
2018-01-17T21:40:33Z jasom: My point is everything I said up to that sentence refers only to redefining functions.  If you redefine macros, then you need to think differently
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2018-01-17T21:40:43Z rumbler31: oh I see what you mean now
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2018-01-17T21:46:49Z aeth: jasom: Return type information isn't inferred unless the function is inline afaik, i.e. (defun foo () (the single-float 1f0)) (defun bar () (+ 1f0 (foo))) (disassemble #'bar)
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2018-01-17T21:49:02Z aeth: You could probably wrap a the around the function call, which would get rid of the generic-+, but still do type checking because it still won't trust you not to redefine #'foo. You'd probably need sb-ext:truly-the in SBCL, and you'd need to *really* make sure your wrapper will never fail.
2018-01-17T21:49:31Z jasom: aeth: I do *not* see the same behavior when I tried it.
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2018-01-17T21:50:28Z aeth: ah, they need to be in the same file
2018-01-17T21:50:36Z aeth: And then it produces the same effect as the, but not truly-the
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2018-01-17T21:51:10Z aeth: Actually, almost but not
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2018-01-17T21:51:42Z aeth: It will type-check that it's 1.0f0, not just single-float
2018-01-17T21:51:56Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/jasom/6f16cfb84cddab784db494e230acd13f
2018-01-17T21:52:07Z jasom: right it type-checks and then returns 2.0f0 without doing an add
2018-01-17T21:52:45Z jasom: I assume changing foo to be (random 1.0) or some such will have a similar effect. but use a single-float specialized add
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2018-01-17T21:53:20Z aeth: jasom: I think that it's not a type thing but a constant thing, though. I've had the same thing happen with macros that generate functions that return constant strings. If I changed those macros in SBCL, I would then get a runtime type error on the user of that generated function if the length of the generated string changed (because length is part of the type in Pascal-style strings)
2018-01-17T21:53:25Z jasom: yup.  So sbcl does assume that function-types for functions that are not declared inline are fixed
2018-01-17T21:53:47Z jasom: aeth: it's typechecking for a float in the range [1.0, 1.0]
2018-01-17T21:53:51Z aeth: s/those macros/those calls to the macro/
2018-01-17T21:54:08Z aeth: jasom: yeah, but I think it's specifically an optimization for functions that are returning constants
2018-01-17T21:54:19Z jasom: aeth: it is not
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2018-01-17T21:54:36Z jasom: because I get a FPU add instead of generic+ when I change it to return a random single-float
2018-01-17T21:54:47Z jasom: ADDSS
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2018-01-17T21:55:29Z jasom: fortunately it works like THE so it does not violate safety constraints
2018-01-17T21:55:31Z aeth: You are correct, I just tested that with (random 2f0) and I get ADDSS and it tests for '(single-float 0.0)
2018-01-17T21:56:21Z jasom: oh, and it does warn on redefinition in this case too
2018-01-17T21:56:57Z jasom: but only if I redefine on the REPL
2018-01-17T21:57:05Z aeth: I don't get a warn when recompiling foo to return "hi" (rather than the file), I just get a runtime type error when calling bar
2018-01-17T21:57:12Z aeth: It must have been added in a new version
2018-01-17T21:57:22Z aeth: Probably because someone else faced these sorts of issues
2018-01-17T21:57:28Z aeth: Possibly with a string-generating macro like I used
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2018-01-17T21:57:53Z aeth: It wouldn't warn when recompiling the file because it can update bar, too
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2018-01-17T22:00:10Z aeth: (well, it would warn about the return type of foo not being compatible with +, so my example isn't perfect)
2018-01-17T22:00:55Z jasom: changing it to return 1.0d0 is maybe a better example
2018-01-17T22:01:05Z aeth: This is interesting, though. It means that fewer, larger files aren't just a stylistic choice. It will potentially make the code more efficient, but at the cost of possibly causing issues with recompiling just an individual function rather than the file.
2018-01-17T22:01:31Z stylewarning: aeth this is well known about compiling things within the same compilation unit
2018-01-17T22:01:51Z stylewarning: CMUCL has block compilation to ameliorate some of the concerns, I think
2018-01-17T22:02:02Z jasom: asdf has with-upgradability at least partly because the entire thing gets put into a single .lisp file
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2018-01-17T22:05:06Z Bike: with-compilation-unit should be usable to make more things optimize together, at least in theory. hell if i know whether sbcl does
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2018-01-17T22:25:37Z aeth: with-compilation-unit would only be necessary to get file-like optimizations in the REPL, though, right?
2018-01-17T22:26:02Z pjb: aeth: that, and if you want to remove the file boundary in a project.
2018-01-17T22:26:44Z aeth: pjb: Is removing the file boundary possible in a way that's compatible with ASDF? It might be useful as part of a build step for distributing a final executable.
2018-01-17T22:27:08Z pjb: You would need asdf support for with-compilation-unit. I don't remember if it's available or not.
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2018-01-17T22:28:07Z pjb: Also, you raise a interesting question: can we always concatenate all the files of a project for distribution, without changing semantics, vs. a separate compilation.
2018-01-17T22:28:43Z pjb: Obviously, it's not possible in general: you would have to add eval-when to be able to compile the concatenated file.
2018-01-17T22:28:57Z aeth: yeah
2018-01-17T22:29:12Z pjb: Perhaps that's what asdf does?
2018-01-17T22:29:22Z aeth: Multiple packages would complicate things, too
2018-01-17T22:29:46Z aeth: Or at least could complicate things
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2018-01-17T23:24:00Z drmeister: That’s what I assumed with-compilation-unit was for when I first encountered it. Optimize whole compilation units together
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2018-01-18T01:24:51Z iqubic: How hard is Lisp to learn and pick up?
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2018-01-18T01:29:31Z pfdietz: I'd say not hard, although there are some parts you don't want to do first.   Restarts are a bit tricky.
2018-01-18T01:29:48Z iqubic: What are restarts?
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2018-01-18T01:35:12Z pfdietz: Restarts are a way to resume after a condition (like, an error) is signaled, without unwinding the stack.
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2018-01-18T01:39:25Z iqubic: What'd the best way to get a Lisp code editing set-u in Emacs?
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2018-01-18T01:42:12Z aeth: SLIME and paredit
2018-01-18T01:45:21Z iqubic: how do I get Slime set-up?
2018-01-18T01:46:20Z iqubic: I assume that step one is: get SBCL.
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2018-01-18T02:33:29Z loli: Slime and lispy is rather nice though lispy takes some getting used to
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2018-01-18T02:50:39Z loke: loli: what is lispy?
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2018-01-18T02:53:32Z loli: it does a job similar to parsec, but it does it in quite the different way
2018-01-18T02:53:37Z loli: you basically have vim keys behind ()'s
2018-01-18T02:53:44Z loli: it's really nice
2018-01-18T02:53:56Z loli: https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy
2018-01-18T02:54:27Z loli: paredit* not parsec
2018-01-18T02:54:29Z loli: sorry
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2018-01-18T02:56:00Z loke: So it's basically paredit for vi bindings?
2018-01-18T02:56:10Z loli: kinda
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2018-01-18T04:01:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-18T04:01:59Z Colleen: beach: drmeister said 1 hour, 17 minutes ago: concrete-syntax-tree-base.asd contains a dependency for :alexandria but doesn't use anything from the system - could you remove it?   Also - I submitted a pull request for the improved fix for handling end-of-file in the sicl reader.
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2018-01-18T04:04:36Z beach: drmeister: Pull request merged.  Thanks!  And yes, I can remove it.
2018-01-18T04:06:25Z beach: Dependency removed.  Thanks!
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2018-01-18T04:38:51Z drmeister: Hey lispers - when people refer to "tooling" as being important in how they use their programming languages and IDE's - do you know what that means?
2018-01-18T04:39:27Z drmeister: I think I kind of know what it means - but I'm trying to broaden my understanding of what people think it is.
2018-01-18T04:39:52Z beach: Where did you see it used?
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2018-01-18T04:43:02Z drmeister: I guess this kind of answers my question:
2018-01-18T04:43:03Z drmeister: https://blog.newrelic.com/2014/05/21/toolsforjavadevelopers/
2018-01-18T04:43:38Z drmeister: http://reactkungfu.com/2015/07/the-hitchhikers-guide-to-modern-javascript-tooling/
2018-01-18T04:45:57Z drmeister: When I read responses on Hacker News to new language announcements - invariably someone says "Your new language X sucks because it lacks what my language Y has - which is the tooling".
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2018-01-18T04:46:21Z drmeister: We have a lot of that with quicklisp, asdf, and slime - I guess.
2018-01-18T04:46:48Z beach: Sort of, yes.
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2018-01-18T04:47:28Z drmeister: One of the promises of Clang's AST tools that hasn't really been realized afaik is that it would improve tooling for C++ syntax aware tools.
2018-01-18T04:47:29Z beach: We shouldn't be too proud of having the best tools, though.
2018-01-18T04:47:40Z beach: We could do a lot better than SLIME, for example.
2018-01-18T04:47:53Z drmeister: Cleavir's cst-to-ast could provide new capabilities for slime.
2018-01-18T04:48:36Z drmeister: syntax highlighting, finding locations that call a function, finding where functions are defined - these could be made more robust with cst-to-ast.
2018-01-18T04:48:52Z beach: Indeed.
2018-01-18T04:49:35Z beach: I would like to see something like this: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
2018-01-18T04:49:37Z drmeister: Source to source translation could also be carried out.
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2018-01-18T04:52:11Z beach: Currently, most implementations implement TRACE by modifying the code.  Then you can't debug the debugger.
2018-01-18T04:52:12Z drmeister: Imagine if someone makes a poor choice for a function name - or dynamic variable.   grep/search/replace is brittle and error prone.   A syntax aware search and replace would be much more robust.
2018-01-18T04:52:35Z drmeister: Uh huh.
2018-01-18T04:52:52Z beach: drmeister: Yes, already planned: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf
2018-01-18T04:54:05Z beach: The good thing here is that I plan to use CST-to-AST also in Second Climacs, so that we can avoid code duplication.
2018-01-18T04:55:11Z drmeister: Can I just say that I think "Second Climacs" is an unfortunate name for an editor?
2018-01-18T04:55:20Z beach: You are not alone.
2018-01-18T04:55:40Z beach: I guess I will be the only user.
2018-01-18T04:55:50Z drmeister: I feel the same way about "Slime" - love the programming environment - hate the name.
2018-01-18T04:57:13Z beach: Aside from that, I mean, calling the SLIME debugger a "debugger" is a joke.
2018-01-18T04:57:26Z beach: And it makes people think that we have the greatest programming environment around.
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2018-01-18T04:57:31Z beach: That just isn't the case.
2018-01-18T04:57:34Z drmeister: That won't make me stop using something - but I'd love to see a better "official" name.
2018-01-18T04:59:04Z drmeister: I don't disagree with you about sldb.
2018-01-18T04:59:33Z loke: beach: There are no screenshots or references in the PDF on clordane you posted.
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2018-01-18T05:00:00Z beach: loke: That's because it doesn't exist.  It's a specification.
2018-01-18T05:00:06Z loke: I see
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2018-01-18T05:02:31Z beach: The point here is that our Common Lisp implementations need to make breakpoints "thread aware" so that we can have one thread run the debugger to debug another thread.
2018-01-18T05:02:50Z beach: As long as that is not happening, we are doomed to have inferior programming environments.
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2018-01-18T05:04:08Z beach: If we do it that way, we can even allow the user to set breakpoints in standard functions like READ or GETHASH.  Currently, that would almost certainly make the debugger stop working.
2018-01-18T05:05:13Z drmeister: I don't disagree.  For things like that I currently use gdb or lldb - but they are not lisp aware.
2018-01-18T05:06:12Z beach: How does Clasp implement traces and breakpoints?
2018-01-18T05:06:49Z drmeister: Traces - I think it compiles a wrapper function.   Breakpoints - I use lldb or gdb.
2018-01-18T05:07:14Z beach: So it replaces the FDEFINITION by the wrapper?
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2018-01-18T05:07:33Z drmeister: I say I think it compiles a wrapper function because I haven't investigated how it works.   I inherited it from ECL and it just works.
2018-01-18T05:07:40Z beach: I see.
2018-01-18T05:07:47Z beach: I'll ask jackdaniel then.
2018-01-18T05:08:12Z drmeister: The behavior is consistent with replacing the fdefinition with a wrapper.
2018-01-18T05:08:21Z aeth: Do people use issue trackers to track future features in large Lisp projects? Or do people use something else (e.g. org files?)
2018-01-18T05:08:21Z beach: Well, that technique doesn't really "work" according to me.
2018-01-18T05:08:28Z drmeister: The trace disappears if I recompile the function.
2018-01-18T05:08:44Z loke: aeth: Github issue tracker is popular.
2018-01-18T05:08:47Z beach: drmeister: Are you sure about that?
2018-01-18T05:09:11Z drmeister: Yes I'm sure about recompiling the function and losing any trace on it.
2018-01-18T05:09:17Z beach: drmeister: If you say (compile #'my-fun), then it disappears?
2018-01-18T05:09:33Z drmeister: No - if I C-c C-c it in slime.
2018-01-18T05:09:47Z drmeister: I can verify in a few min.
2018-01-18T05:09:50Z beach: drmeister: Then you are not only recompiling the function, but also modifying the FDEFINITION.
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2018-01-18T05:20:48Z drmeister: Good point
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2018-01-18T05:21:44Z beach: Anyway, I suspect Clasp and ECL (just like SBCL) don't have thread-aware trace points or breakpoints.
2018-01-18T05:22:14Z beach: I am fairly sure I could say the same of every other free Common Lisp implementation.
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2018-01-18T05:36:28Z aeth: What would it take to multithread compilation in CL?
2018-01-18T05:36:34Z aeth: I don't think most implementations do this.
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2018-01-18T06:23:56Z beach: So here is an idea for the implementation of thread-aware breakpoints in x86.  The important feature is that threads that are not being debugged should not take too big a performance hit.
2018-01-18T06:24:00Z beach: I suggest that, when code is compiled with a high value of the DEBUG quality, then the execution of each form starts and ends with a test of the DF status flag.  If 0, then execution continues as normal.
2018-01-18T06:24:02Z beach: If 1, then some further action is taken to determine whether there is a breakpoint at this point in the code.  The "further action" remains to be specified, but the slow version would be to interrogate a breakpoint table in the thread instance.
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2018-01-18T06:25:33Z beach: The use of the DF flag means that, if the implementation uses specific instructions that depend on its value, then the value has to be saved and restored around the execution of these instructions.
2018-01-18T06:27:00Z beach: Any thoughts or questions?
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2018-01-18T06:33:16Z rme: when I last looked into using the x86 direction flag, I found that manipulating it was expensive.  it ended up being faster to set a flag in memory.
2018-01-18T06:33:44Z beach: Interesting.
2018-01-18T06:33:49Z White_Flame: I'm kind of preferential to Java-style interruption, where an address is routinely read.  If it's to be interrupted, the address range is made unreable.  Now, you could extend this so each thread is reading a different address (just an indirection through a thread-local pointer), and/or use different addresses per potential breakpoint.
2018-01-18T06:33:57Z beach: rme: Even reading it is expensive?
2018-01-18T06:34:15Z White_Flame: I think you have to push flags to stack to read the DF flag, only set & clear are part of the ISA
2018-01-18T06:34:30Z rme: it's been long enough ago that I don't remember the exact details, I'm afraid.
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2018-01-18T06:34:56Z beach: White_Flame: It seems you are right about that.
2018-01-18T06:35:26Z phoe: and 99.9% of the time you'll be reading it, only 0.01% will be clearing/setting it
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2018-01-18T06:35:35Z White_Flame: hmm, if you have ample room in your 64-bit address space, you could read thread_local_page + N*program_counter to get a unique memory-protection based interrupt per location in your code
2018-01-18T06:35:50Z White_Flame: per location per thread
2018-01-18T06:35:59Z beach: White_Flame: Good ideas.  I'll think about your suggestion(s).
2018-01-18T06:36:45Z White_Flame: and with future fixes for meltdown/crispr, it might even be quicker to interrupt than it is now ;)
2018-01-18T06:36:51Z White_Flame: erm, spectrre
2018-01-18T06:37:09Z rme: I'd want to look at trying to use the dr0 through dr3 debug registers on x86 for setting hardware breakpoints if possible
2018-01-18T06:39:34Z beach: rme: I haven't had the time to read up on hardware breakpoints, but that's an important subject.
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2018-01-18T06:43:30Z beach: I still like the DF over an address in memory, because that address would have to depend on the thread, making it expensive to read because of indirection.  But here is a compromise: at the entry of each function compiled with a high value of the DEBUG quality, move the DF flag to a register or to the local stack frame so that each further test inside the function is cheaper.
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2018-01-18T06:43:55Z beach: I like White_Flame's suggestions as a "second test" when the flag is set.
2018-01-18T06:46:07Z beach: Some simple hash-like technique could be used.  Take the PC modulo (say) 256 and consult a table in the thread instance.  If a bit is set there, then consult a complete hash table to determine whether this PC value actually has a breakpoint.
2018-01-18T06:47:11Z White_Flame: I suspect the Java way is one of the least intrusive, though it probably does tie up a cache line
2018-01-18T06:47:58Z beach: I fear it will be expensive for threads that are not debugged.
2018-01-18T06:47:59Z rme: there's almost certainly going to be thread-local memory maintained by the lisp runtime.  on ccl, %fs or %gs points to the thread-local memory block (except on highly advanced systems like macOS, where we have to burn a gpr for this).
2018-01-18T06:48:23Z White_Flame: beach: each thread reads its own address; you only deny read permissions for the memory page for one thread, in my idea
2018-01-18T06:48:49Z White_Flame: I don't know recall if Java's was per-thread, or for stop-the-world
2018-01-18T06:48:54Z White_Flame: -know
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2018-01-18T06:49:26Z beach: Oh, so you play with the memory manager for different threads?
2018-01-18T06:49:53Z White_Flame: basically, each thread just reads a canary location in memory.  When you want to halt a thread, play with the memory manager for a particular canary location
2018-01-18T06:50:12Z White_Flame: each thread reads a _separate_ per-thread location
2018-01-18T06:50:28Z beach: Oh!
2018-01-18T06:50:34Z beach: That sounds expensive, though.
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2018-01-18T06:50:47Z beach: Go to the thread instance, find the address to read, then read it.
2018-01-18T06:50:55Z beach: Sounds like several memory accesses.
2018-01-18T06:50:58Z beach: No?
2018-01-18T06:51:02Z beach: Am I missing something?
2018-01-18T06:51:08Z White_Flame: hopefully it's just a single indirection
2018-01-18T06:51:23Z White_Flame: I don't know all the addressing modes available
2018-01-18T06:51:25Z beach: That sounds way more expensive than testing a bit though.
2018-01-18T06:51:40Z beach: No?
2018-01-18T06:51:44Z White_Flame: the thing is, it'll always be cached.  Which can also be a  downside
2018-01-18T06:51:55Z White_Flame: the code footprint would be smaller for the memory location, though
2018-01-18T06:52:00Z White_Flame: depends on what you need
2018-01-18T06:52:17Z beach: What makes you think it is smaller?
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2018-01-18T06:52:42Z White_Flame: it's just a read through a register+offset indirection, assuming a thread-local table is in a register
2018-01-18T06:52:50Z White_Flame: that doesn't require many bytes of SIA
2018-01-18T06:52:51Z White_Flame: ISA
2018-01-18T06:53:34Z beach: I think I understand.
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2018-01-18T06:55:11Z beach: So, either way, we have at least two ways of making thread-aware breakpoints with very little cost for threads that are not being debugged, and a modest cost for a thread being debugged, but not at this particular value of PC.
2018-01-18T06:56:11Z White_Flame: "safepoints" is seemingly the jvmterm: http://blog.ragozin.info/2012/10/safepoints-in-hotspot-jvm.html
2018-01-18T06:56:56Z White_Flame: If you did a read of thread-local-canary-address + 4k*PC, then maybe you could use the same trick to interrupt at a particular PC on a particular thread
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2018-01-18T06:57:18Z White_Flame: having reserved a lot of 64bit address space for the purpose
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2018-01-18T06:57:44Z beach: That makes me nervous though.  It could just be me of course.
2018-01-18T06:58:07Z White_Flame: I'm fully aware that my imagination has no limits of practicality :)
2018-01-18T06:58:12Z beach: Heh!
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2018-01-18T06:58:34Z White_Flame: but a 64 bit space is ... big
2018-01-18T06:59:13Z White_Flame: if I remember correctly, the width of the visible universe in terms of electron-diameters is on the order of 2^80
2018-01-18T06:59:18Z beach: It is not important to me at this point to know the exact solution; just that one exists.  And I am now convinced that there are at least two.
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2018-01-18T07:01:16Z jackdaniel: someone told that god had to be a very cruel at the time he made men – give them mind with capabilities to make almost infinitely ambitious plans and time to live which doesn't allow to excercise them :)
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2018-01-18T07:13:45Z aeth: 128 bit is inevitable
2018-01-18T07:13:48Z aeth: Some day.
2018-01-18T07:16:43Z White_Flame: wasn't AS/400 128-bit?
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2018-01-18T07:19:39Z aeth: According to Wikipedia, sort of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit
2018-01-18T07:19:45Z aeth: They're just being very forwards-compatible
2018-01-18T07:20:29Z aeth: Introduced in 1988, so probably more than 50 years forwards-compatible.
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2018-01-18T07:21:55Z beach: White_Flame: Wait, your single per-thread address read suffers a severe performance problem when the potential breakpoint turns out not to be one.
2018-01-18T07:22:14Z beach: You have to go through the interrupt and context-switch mechanism, right?
2018-01-18T07:22:32Z White_Flame: only when you want to trigger the interrupt; that should only happen once
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2018-01-18T07:22:57Z beach: I don't see that.
2018-01-18T07:23:14Z beach: Here is a thread being debugged, so I arrive at some point in the code and I read my unique address.
2018-01-18T07:23:17Z White_Flame: but yeah, switching the MMU stuff to reject he read and flushing TLB cache or whatever is a pretty expensive operation, but that's all involved when you actually perform the interrupt, not exploration
2018-01-18T07:23:26Z beach: The thread is being debugged, so I take the read fault.
2018-01-18T07:23:44Z White_Flame: ah, right, if it's just a  per-thread address, and not per-thread address + 4k*pc
2018-01-18T07:23:46Z beach: But this particular PC value does not have a breakpoint associated with it.
2018-01-18T07:23:55Z beach: Right, which may be excessive.
2018-01-18T07:24:04Z White_Flame: so yes, it would constantly be interrupting until it found the PC
2018-01-18T07:24:10Z White_Flame: though the other threads would be left alone
2018-01-18T07:24:18Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-18T07:25:16Z White_Flame: there's all sorts of granularity tradeoffs you could make, like assign a page offset per function, so you only hammer it when it's in the particular function the breakpoint is in
2018-01-18T07:25:43Z White_Flame: but yeah, if you're not going to have it per-PC, then it might make more sense to do manual checks, if you can do them cheaply
2018-01-18T07:26:17Z White_Flame: random thought, but are there any feature of cpu affinity that could help isolate the thread?
2018-01-18T07:26:40Z White_Flame: *features (I hate this laptop keyboard)
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2018-01-18T07:27:50Z White_Flame: but really, how expensive is it to set a breakpoint, and test to see if you're in the intended thread?
2018-01-18T07:27:56Z White_Flame: especially compared to other goofier ideas
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2018-01-18T07:28:47Z beach: OK, final proposal that does not involve DF:  At the entry of each function, read an address at a fixed offset in the thread instance.  It contains a flag that indicates whether this thread is debugged.
2018-01-18T07:28:53Z beach: The contents is put in the stack frame or in a register, determined by the register allocator.  Before and after the evaluation of each form, call a small local routine with PC as its argument.
2018-01-18T07:28:59Z beach: That routine starts by testing the flag.  If 0 it returns normally (this is the case when the thread is not being debugged).  If 1, it takes PC modulo (say) 1024 and consults a bit table in the thread instance.
2018-01-18T07:29:08Z beach: If the table contains a 0 (the usual case) then it returns normally, because it means there is no breakpoint at this PC value.  If 1, it consults a hash table in the thread instance to see whether this particular PC value has a breakpoint.
2018-01-18T07:29:09Z beach: If not, it returns normally.  If it does, it suspends execution and gives control to the debugger thread.
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2018-01-18T07:31:29Z beach: White_Flame: I don't know the answer to your question, but this last solution of mine would work on any architecture.
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2018-01-18T07:33:19Z White_Flame: hmm, it would only work for a single breakpoint, but if you could do 1/(PC - read-from-thread-local), you could trigger a divide by zero exception if that location was set to the current PC
2018-01-18T07:34:06Z White_Flame: but then again, a simple test and branch could do the same
2018-01-18T07:34:12Z beach: Yeah.
2018-01-18T07:34:30Z beach: When the debugger sets a breakpoint, it updates the hash table and the bit table in the thread instance.  When a breakpoint is being removed, it clears the bit table, traverses the hash table to set the bits in the bit table.
2018-01-18T07:35:13Z beach: I think this last technique wold work fairly well, with minimal performance impact.
2018-01-18T07:35:45Z White_Flame: hmm, if you double the memory footprint of your code, you could have a flag per instuction byte
2018-01-18T07:36:09Z White_Flame: then it's a large PC-relative offset to see if that flag matches your current thread pointer
2018-01-18T07:36:41Z White_Flame: ie, 15MB of code footprint, then 15MB of zeros mirroring the same locations
2018-01-18T07:36:51Z phoe: I don't think he wants per-instruction breakpoints though, rather one breakpoint per Lisp form.
2018-01-18T07:37:02Z White_Flame: I know, most of them would be unused
2018-01-18T07:37:09Z White_Flame: but they'd be immediate to calculate
2018-01-18T07:38:06Z White_Flame: just read PC+some_big_offset, compare to thread-local register
2018-01-18T07:38:37Z phoe: It will be fast, correct.
2018-01-18T07:40:03Z White_Flame: it's nice living in the future where you can throw egregious amounts of RAM at a problem
2018-01-18T07:44:02Z beach: Hmm.  If I make the bit table smaller, say 64 bits, I can skip the single bit and load this small table to the stack or to a register (subject to register allocation).  The famous small routine would then immediately test a bit that is PC modulo 64.  How much more expensive would that be compared to testing one single bit?  I am guessing "not much".
2018-01-18T07:46:03Z beach: Maybe not.  The debugger would have to know how to update the local version of the bit table.  Not worth it, probably.
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2018-01-18T07:49:59Z shka: White_Flame: it would be nice, if people would not throw copious amounts on RAM into web based application
2018-01-18T07:50:20Z White_Flame: guilty as charged ;)
2018-01-18T07:52:58Z White_Flame: but I think a good post-IDA disassembler (my big web-based application) tends to be for people willing to have big hardware footprints
2018-01-18T07:54:13Z White_Flame: (hmm, though I think I technically started it way before IDA was a thing...)
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2018-01-18T08:28:59Z phoe: What is the ELS mailing list address?
2018-01-18T08:29:25Z phoe: I'll want to unsubscribe from one address and subscribe from another one.
2018-01-18T08:29:39Z phoe: Oh, I got it. Thanks.
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2018-01-18T08:52:46Z beach: A summary of my own conclusions of the discussion on breakpoints is now in Appendix A of this document: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
2018-01-18T08:53:21Z beach: I will submit it to nyef`` when he wakes up, because we have discusses such things in the past.
2018-01-18T08:56:09Z beach: Interesting related information: When I run SICL inside a host Common Lisp implementation (currently SBCL), I can implement breakpoints this way with very little effort.  I can then implement Clordane so that it can debug SICL programs, even though 1. SICL doesn't really exist, and 2. SBCL doesn't support per-thread breakpoints.
2018-01-18T08:57:10Z phoe: Hah!
2018-01-18T08:57:36Z aeth: Impressive
2018-01-18T08:57:50Z phoe: 1) Well, now it does. 2) Well, now it does.
2018-01-18T08:58:29Z beach: Compare this idea to generating a SICL executable sooner rather than later.  Then I would lose all my usual tools and I would have to resort to GDB or something similar with absolutely no knowledge of Common Lisp.
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2018-01-18T08:58:41Z schweers: beach: So its possible to add better debuggers to existing implementations without modifying said implementation?
2018-01-18T08:59:25Z beach: Not really.  I am not improving the processing of native SBCL code.   Only code compiled with the SICL compiler for execution inside SBCL.
2018-01-18T08:59:37Z beach: So you would have to compile all your code with the SICL compiler.
2018-01-18T09:01:01Z schweers: okay, still seems impressive
2018-01-18T09:01:12Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-01-18T09:03:51Z beach: I am basically accumulating evidence that I should not be hasty when it comes to creating a native SICL executable, and even less so when it comes to creating a bootable LispOS image.  Instead, I should take advantage of a safe execution environment (here SBCL) to make the system as complete as possible first.
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2018-01-18T09:22:26Z loke: beach: What is the status of sicl at th emoment?
2018-01-18T09:23:25Z beach: Strange!  Most of the code exists, but I am making very slow progress with the bootstrapping phase.
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2018-01-18T09:27:08Z schweers: beach: out of curiosity: what exactly does sicl do?  does it compile to native code or something else?
2018-01-18T09:28:08Z beach: It will when it's done.  Right now, it generates AST then HIR.  The HIR code is then turned into a small subset of Common Lisp that is compiled on the host compiler for ultimate execution.
2018-01-18T09:28:56Z schweers: Small as in: its easier to write a compiler for, instead of for full CL?
2018-01-18T09:29:01Z beach: And the Common Lisp that is submitted to the host compiler uses first-class global environments for all its lookups.
2018-01-18T09:29:54Z beach: I haven't contemplated that possibility.  It is probably easier to start with HIR directly for any other backend.
2018-01-18T09:30:16Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-01-18T10:10:33Z hajovonta: hello
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2018-01-18T11:16:19Z kolb: can anyone with a working lispworks install check https://github.com/eugeneia/maxpc/issues/10 for me?
2018-01-18T11:16:28Z kolb: I can’t get lispworks PE to run on my box
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2018-01-18T11:30:42Z shka: Shinmera: why oh why you had to use table names for user that makes it impossible to use s-sql ;_;
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2018-01-18T11:31:24Z Shinmera: I have standards to enforce, and no interest in supporting broken systems.  Sorry.
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2018-01-18T11:31:56Z Shinmera: If ssql is so broken that it can't even let you specify precise table and column names I don't know what to tell you
2018-01-18T11:35:25Z flip214: I've just seen a few C compiler switch/case fallthrough warnings and wondered - what's the Lisp way to do something similar?
2018-01-18T11:35:46Z Shinmera: Do what, cause the compiler to warn you?
2018-01-18T11:36:01Z flip214: TAGBODY needs the tags in the outermost body, so we can't GO into the THEN clause of an if...
2018-01-18T11:36:44Z flip214: so perhaps the cases need to be specified manually up front, with appropriate GOs into later parts of the TAGBODY
2018-01-18T11:36:52Z flip214: Shinmera: no, fallthrough code.
2018-01-18T11:37:14Z flip214: like Duff's device, for example.
2018-01-18T11:37:35Z flip214: although that one is easy because of the limited amount of code...
2018-01-18T11:37:58Z Shinmera: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/5tvd05/duffs_device_in_common_lisp/ddqpt9v/
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2018-01-18T11:38:59Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, but for more cases the manual translation is awkward.
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2018-01-18T11:39:08Z flip214: time for a FALLTHROUGH-CASE macro, I guess ;)
2018-01-18T11:41:05Z shka: Shinmera: well, i made pull request to fix it yesterday
2018-01-18T11:41:14Z shka: hopefully things will get better
2018-01-18T11:41:56Z beach: kolb: You are probably better off asking the people from LispWorks.
2018-01-18T11:44:08Z Shinmera: flip214: trivial enough https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/701#701
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2018-01-18T11:49:05Z _death: now incorporate Go's fix for this deficiency of C..
2018-01-18T11:49:47Z flip214: Shinmera: for EQL-clauses, yeah, right.
2018-01-18T11:50:26Z flip214: would need to accumulate TAGs if arbitrary expressions need to be allowed (as in COND)
2018-01-18T11:50:50Z Shinmera: Well, C only does EQL too, so
2018-01-18T11:50:53Z flip214: good work.... the only thing missing is a BREAK macrolet that does (GO ,end) ;)
2018-01-18T11:51:07Z Shinmera: You can't do that because BREAK is a CL symbol
2018-01-18T11:51:15Z flip214: Shinmera: "case 5 .. 100:" in at least some compilers
2018-01-18T11:51:17Z Shinmera: You can instead use RETURN
2018-01-18T11:51:57Z _death: (break should be the default and there should be a fallthrough macro..)
2018-01-18T11:52:03Z flip214: Shinmera: how about pushing that into alexandria or so?
2018-01-18T11:52:18Z _death: flip214: pushing macros with 0 users to alexandria?
2018-01-18T11:52:21Z flip214: _death: yeah, right. although that would break the compatibility with C.
2018-01-18T11:52:45Z flip214: _death: unless it's pushed somewhere, it will tend to _stay_ at 0 users.
2018-01-18T11:52:57Z _death: alexandria is a conservative library..
2018-01-18T11:52:58Z flip214: thanks anyway.
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2018-01-18T11:53:55Z Shinmera: I don't want this macro, so you can push it into alexandria
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2018-01-18T12:09:11Z flip214: I don't even succeed with docstring typo fixes, so that won't happen
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2018-01-18T12:57:12Z Xach: khrbt: maybe we could move the github one to sharplispers and call it canon? i can check with nikodemus
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2018-01-18T13:18:27Z alandipert: is there a way to specify a quicklisp disp on a per-project basis? ie http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html appears to set the dist for all subsequent lisp processes on the machine; i'm curious about setting it just for a session/image
2018-01-18T13:19:13Z Xach: alandipert: you can have multiple quicklisp directories - everything is done relative to the initial setup.lisp file.
2018-01-18T13:19:25Z Xach: you could have one in each project if you wanted
2018-01-18T13:19:47Z Xach: it will cost me many picodollars, but i am willing to deal
2018-01-18T13:19:53Z alandipert: Xach thanks, that sounds like a good solution :-)
2018-01-18T13:24:02Z alandipert: Xach i'm kind of a noob, so to clarify... for the per-project way, each project would have something like setup.lisp in it, right? since i see the *quicklisp-home*/qmerge stuff at the top
2018-01-18T13:24:44Z Xach: alandipert: you would have basically an entire quicklisp directory in it (the actual name doesn't matter, just the file arrangement under it)
2018-01-18T13:25:39Z Xach: you can do that with the quicklisp.lisp installer file by using a :path option too
2018-01-18T13:25:54Z Xach: e.g. (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path "my-project/quicklisp/")
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2018-01-18T13:26:41Z Xach: or just cp -a an existing installation, or equivalent
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2018-01-18T13:28:35Z alandipert: Xach that's great, thanks again
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2018-01-18T14:14:12Z attila_lendvai: I can push to alexandria and I don't know about any pending non-controversial patches
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2018-01-18T14:57:56Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2018-01-18T15:00:39Z beach: Hello kami.
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2018-01-18T15:01:39Z phoe: hey hi
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2018-01-18T15:02:53Z rumbler31: good morning
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2018-01-18T15:12:34Z shrdlu68: What's the purpose of #'cl:char-int ?
2018-01-18T15:13:08Z Bike: some part of the "attributes" thing nobody uses any more
2018-01-18T15:13:42Z shrdlu68: Oh, I see.
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2018-01-18T15:16:21Z pjb: For example, you could encode font attributes there, so you could write bold or italic characters with format.
2018-01-18T15:18:25Z tfb: CL originally had char-bits and other functions to deal with attributes (all coming from Symbolics I think), and char-int included the bits but char-code didn't
2018-01-18T15:18:54Z tfb: (or, perhaps, the other way around)
2018-01-18T15:19:36Z tfb: but that all went away between CLtL1 and 2 I think (might have still been there in 2, was gone by the standard)
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2018-01-18T15:49:34Z phoe: clhs char-int
2018-01-18T15:49:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_i.htm
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2018-01-18T15:50:52Z phoe: I think that Unicode rendered this function more or less useless.
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2018-01-18T15:52:44Z Bike: it's not about code points. in old lisp implementations you could encode things like a character being italicized or having a particular color.
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2018-01-18T16:04:16Z kolb: I just learned that LispWorks does unicode in a weird way, i.e. (length "a⍳c") → 5
2018-01-18T16:04:46Z antoszka: Oops.
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2018-01-18T16:05:22Z antoszka: I apparently counts the bytes.
2018-01-18T16:05:29Z antoszka: ~ echo -n "a⍳c" | hexdump -C
2018-01-18T16:05:31Z antoszka: 00000000  61 e2 8d b3 63
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2018-01-18T16:06:28Z kolb: well "weird" is maybe too much said, more like encoding unaware but 8-bit clean
2018-01-18T16:06:40Z kolb: except in symbol names :>
2018-01-18T16:06:49Z shka: Shinmera: what is the canonical way to handle errors from api (like handling incorrect user input
2018-01-18T16:06:50Z shka: )
2018-01-18T16:06:55Z shka: ?
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2018-01-18T16:08:44Z Shinmera: shka: If the error is of type api-error, then the API will automatically handle it be either outputting it as data, or redirecting back with the error GET parameter set if the browser parameter is "true"
2018-01-18T16:08:52Z Shinmera: Cf. https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance/blob/master/api.lisp#L157
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2018-01-18T16:09:00Z shka: neat!
2018-01-18T16:09:01Z shka: thanks
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2018-01-18T16:09:28Z Shinmera: So typically in forms I have a hidden input field that sets "browser" to "true"
2018-01-18T16:09:31Z shka: btw, are you online 24/7? :D
2018-01-18T16:09:49Z Bike: antoszka: so what do you get from (char "a⍳c" 3), exactly
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2018-01-18T16:10:01Z Shinmera: No, but I'm typically around between 8:00-24:00 CE(S)T
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2018-01-18T16:12:32Z antoszka: Bike: I have sbcl so cannot reproduce the problem.
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2018-01-18T16:12:52Z antoszka: As kolb says, it's probably just 8-bit clean
2018-01-18T16:12:58Z Shinmera: shka: I'm considering changing it to handle all errors except for special ones.
2018-01-18T16:13:17Z Shinmera: shka: Since being able to just (error "foo") and it doing the right thing would be much more convenient
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2018-01-18T16:14:17Z shka: sounds somewhat reasonable
2018-01-18T16:14:39Z Shinmera: The reason I didn't do so so far is that catching all errors might leak information you don't want to leak.
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2018-01-18T16:15:52Z shka: perhaps automatic logging of errors and redirecting to "Sorry, programmer is any idiot :(" page would be better
2018-01-18T16:16:06Z shka: that's it: anything that is not api-error
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2018-01-18T16:16:52Z Shinmera: Maybe, but it still increases boilerplate a lot since it doesn't integrate well with other libraries.
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2018-01-18T16:17:18Z Shinmera: So for instance if you have a thing that checks inputs or whatever for validity and uses errors, that won't automatically translate to the useful behaviour.
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2018-01-18T16:19:26Z shka: true, but errors like those signaled by find-class are weird
2018-01-18T16:19:35Z Shinmera: Right
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2018-01-18T16:48:12Z shka: Shinmera: i have another trivial question
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2018-01-18T16:48:51Z shka: how can i make this (post/get "browser") return true
2018-01-18T16:49:03Z shka: AKA: what should i put in my html
2018-01-18T16:49:22Z shka: i know it may seem stupid but i am scratching my head right now
2018-01-18T16:49:28Z Shinmera: If you have a form: <input type="hidden" name="browser" value="true">
2018-01-18T16:49:40Z shka: riiiight
2018-01-18T16:49:41Z Shinmera: If it's just a link, add ?browser=true or whatnot to the end.
2018-01-18T16:50:12Z Bike: Has anyone ever used next-method-p? i have no concept of how it would be used and am curious.
2018-01-18T16:50:19Z shka: honestly i forgot about that hidden html form crap
2018-01-18T16:50:40Z Shinmera: Bike: I have
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2018-01-18T16:50:44Z shka: Shinmera: thanks
2018-01-18T16:51:02Z shka: Bike: I did, but later refactored my code to get rid of it
2018-01-18T16:51:02Z Bike: link? (brb though)
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2018-01-18T16:52:56Z Shinmera: Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/widget-convenience.lisp#L39 https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/examples/game/primitives.lisp#L46
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2018-01-18T16:53:05Z oleo: i thought next-method-p is a thing to be called in :around methods
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2018-01-18T16:53:31Z Shinmera: Bike: Generally I find it useful if you want to do something like the append/etc method combination, but want to leave control to the method definer about whether they want to exclude superclasses or not.
2018-01-18T16:53:36Z shka: oleo: around method won't be called if you don't have primary method so what's the point?
2018-01-18T16:53:39Z tazjin: does someone know of an example for using enum types in postgres via postmodern?
2018-01-18T16:54:18Z oleo: shka: who said that ?
2018-01-18T16:55:27Z oleo: clos looks for primary methods first it doesn't say there have to be primary methods in order for the rest to be looked up.....
2018-01-18T16:55:28Z oleo: afaik
2018-01-18T16:55:30Z shka: uuuuh
2018-01-18T16:55:47Z shka: i am wrong again i guess…
2018-01-18T16:55:59Z shka: i honestly thought that this is the case
2018-01-18T16:56:05Z oleo: nope, i don't think so
2018-01-18T16:56:18Z oleo: you can be done with just one :around method
2018-01-18T16:56:22Z oleo: which is then default
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2018-01-18T16:56:59Z tfb: kolb: you should read the LW documentation on unicode.
2018-01-18T16:57:08Z oleo: and it won't call other bookkeeping stuff, so if you still want that you need the call-next-method in it
2018-01-18T16:57:39Z oleo: so before calling call-next-method you can use call-next-method-p in order to ensure there is anything to be called....
2018-01-18T16:58:22Z oleo: in order to not salvage calls needlessly
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2018-01-18T17:00:10Z shka: Shinmera: i think that i found bug
2018-01-18T17:00:39Z oleo: brb
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2018-01-18T17:01:11Z shka: i setfed *debugger* to nil, but then out of sudden i get messages like Handling stray condition: The variable MODULARIZE-HOOKS:NAME is unbound.
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2018-01-18T17:02:42Z shka: ok
2018-01-18T17:02:44Z shka: never mind
2018-01-18T17:02:48Z shka: stupid mistake :D
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2018-01-18T17:12:51Z _death: clhs 7.6.6.4
2018-01-18T17:12:51Z specbot: Built-in Method Combination Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffd.htm
2018-01-18T17:13:07Z _death: "An error is signaled if there are applicable around methods and no applicable primary methods."
2018-01-18T17:15:53Z Bike: Shinmera: i see... thanks
2018-01-18T17:16:34Z Bike: and the latter is like super
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2018-01-18T17:16:52Z rumbler31: Lsa2
2018-01-18T17:17:07Z rumbler31: wrong window
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2018-01-18T17:17:42Z oleo: so standard and built-in
2018-01-18T17:17:49Z oleo: method combination types
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2018-01-18T17:22:17Z khrbt: Xach: yes, would be good to get linedit on sharplispers.  I would be happy to assist with testing and merging of patches/PRs.
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2018-01-18T17:22:46Z _death: oleo: right, so :around methods for those usually don't need next-method-p
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2018-01-18T17:25:41Z oleo: err, wha ?
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2018-01-18T17:27:27Z oleo:  If an around method invokes call-next-method, the next most specific around method is called, if one is applicable. If there are no around methods or if call-next-method is called by the least specific around method, the other methods are called as follows: ....
2018-01-18T17:27:49Z oleo: if
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2018-01-18T17:28:13Z oleo: i.e. if it does not call-next-method then those won't get called....
2018-01-18T17:28:19Z _death: c-n-m can be passed arguments..
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2018-01-18T17:28:40Z oleo: like call a specif one ?
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2018-01-18T17:29:31Z _death: I think there's some confusion.. if an :around method does not c-n-m, of course no next method will be called..
2018-01-18T17:29:39Z oleo: yep
2018-01-18T17:29:43Z oleo: that's what i said
2018-01-18T17:30:48Z oleo: so when it has a c-n-m then it looks for a most specific :around method again, if there's none it goes to the least specific :around method and then from there to the rest of the methods
2018-01-18T17:30:56Z oleo: the bookeeping ones
2018-01-18T17:32:08Z _death: but usually it can assume that there will be a next method, so next-method-p is not needed
2018-01-18T17:32:35Z oleo: welp, you cycle once more.....
2018-01-18T17:33:15Z oleo: if you assume....
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2018-01-18T17:34:08Z _death: modality is different from material implication
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2018-01-18T17:35:38Z _death: let's say, find a scenario where next-method-p returns nil in an :around method
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2018-01-18T17:36:36Z oleo: (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method))
2018-01-18T17:36:51Z _death: this is meaningless, give code that works
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2018-01-18T17:42:04Z alandipert: is anyone aware of anything like a design discussion about lisp keywords? the 'why' and history of keywords. thanks in advance for pointers
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2018-01-18T17:46:24Z phoe: alandipert: keywords are just symbols that evaluate to themselves. I do not know which dialect of Lisp they originate from though. Why do you ask?
2018-01-18T17:47:11Z alandipert: i am curious about aesthetic arguments for and against them, since they're technically equivalent to quoted symbols
2018-01-18T17:47:26Z _death: phoe: that's not the whole story, of course.. the reader is also modified to make keywords convenient to use
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2018-01-18T17:48:02Z Xach: Yeah, (open "foo.txt" 'direction 'output) then involves package management or string compares or deeper trickery
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2018-01-18T17:48:28Z _death: alandipert: what are "quoted symbols"?
2018-01-18T17:50:25Z alandipert: _death an expression that evaluates to a symbol object
2018-01-18T17:50:49Z Xach: I don't know about their history but I appreciate their convenience
2018-01-18T17:52:56Z tfb: alandipert:  suspect strongly keywords originated in Lisp machine lisp
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2018-01-18T17:53:21Z _death: alandipert: a keyword is a symbol exported from the package named "KEYWORD" that evaluates to itself.. the reader is hacked to intern keywords this way, and to accept :foo as keyword:foo
2018-01-18T17:53:24Z alandipert: Xach in what respect do you find them convenient? considering 'foo and :foo are the same number of characters to type. visual distinction, automatic package membership, combination thereof?
2018-01-18T17:53:24Z tfb: along with packages (not in MACLISP, but are in Zetalisp)
2018-01-18T17:53:54Z _death: alandipert: this makes it convenient to use them as global names
2018-01-18T17:54:30Z Shinmera: alandipert: You're not comparing it properly. :foo is the same as 'keyword:foo. The /point/ of keywords is that they come from one single package.
2018-01-18T17:54:50Z tfb: alandipert: if you have a lot of functions which need an 'test' keyword argument, you need a home-package for that symbol.  That package could be CL, but probably should not be.   So it's KEYWORD
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2018-01-18T17:56:04Z _death: alandipert: you may be interested in KMP's post on "data hygiene" https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/data-hygiene.txt
2018-01-18T17:56:20Z tfb: (in fact it can't be CL because that would require you to be able to intern new symbols in CL and that would be horrible)
2018-01-18T17:56:25Z oleo: doesn't 'bla get interned automatically ?
2018-01-18T17:56:50Z oleo: polluting the current package name space ?
2018-01-18T17:57:12Z Xach: alandipert: :foo means the same thing regardless of the value of cl:*package*. Not so with 'foo.
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2018-01-18T17:57:44Z oleo: heh
2018-01-18T17:57:56Z Xach: They are used as syntax, not as names, so clashes are not generally an issue.
2018-01-18T17:58:17Z Xach: (I use them as names but never in something shared for others to use)
2018-01-18T17:59:03Z alandipert: _death thanks for that link, i'll check it out
2018-01-18T18:00:45Z alandipert: Shimera and thanks for the clarification about package origin, that seems like the key distinction. the ability to make human-readable names that are not in a package
2018-01-18T18:00:53Z alandipert: altho it makes me wonder why strings aren't as suitable
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2018-01-18T18:02:17Z Shinmera: Because (eq "foo" "foo") is not T.
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2018-01-18T18:03:21Z oleo: two strings on different addresses
2018-01-18T18:04:04Z tfb: strings are what languages which don't have symbols are forced to use as terrible substitutes for symbols
2018-01-18T18:04:05Z Shinmera: strings are a poor man's identifier. See almost any other language and the crutches they go through to do it like that.
2018-01-18T18:04:29Z alandipert: i'm familiar with this point of view but i'm trying to reach the next level of comprehending
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2018-01-18T18:05:04Z alandipert: why are they poor identifiers? because they are typically used to represent inputs instead of names for parts of programs?
2018-01-18T18:05:31Z alandipert: i realized after typing that my inquiries are indistinguisable from trolling, so i think i will go read more stuff and report back if i find anything interesting. thanks all for the observations and pointers :-D
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2018-01-18T18:06:56Z _death: strings are not atomic.. they also don't tend to live in namespaces
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2018-01-18T18:07:13Z tfb: alandipert: because to compare two strings you need to compare them element-by-element, while symbol-comparison is an instruction
2018-01-18T18:07:40Z Shinmera: And you'd be allocating strings all over the place
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2018-01-18T18:10:18Z jmercouris: so I've made a macro called defcommand, effectively it is a wrapper around defun that does some other things
2018-01-18T18:10:21Z alandipert: some VMs intern strings under various circumstances. like if they're under a certain size or appear as a constant. certainly concern, but comes with a possible tradeoff
2018-01-18T18:10:32Z jmercouris: my issue is, that defcommand does indentation wrong, at least by my perspective
2018-01-18T18:10:44Z jmercouris: I would like to have the same indentation as defun, is this possible? or no?
2018-01-18T18:10:49Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell jmercouris look up trivial-indent
2018-01-18T18:10:49Z Colleen: jmercouris: About trivial-indent https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-indent#about_trivial-indent
2018-01-18T18:10:53Z _death: alandipert: it's generally recognized in other languages as well as that strings have "value semantics".. i.e. their identity is immaterial.. the identity of symbols is important
2018-01-18T18:11:49Z Bike: hey, nice. i've never understood the indentation rules and now, i don't have to
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2018-01-18T18:11:58Z jmercouris: Shinmera: DamN! very cool
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2018-01-18T18:12:42Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Is there a way to pass a known indentation to define-indentation?
2018-01-18T18:12:50Z Shinmera: No
2018-01-18T18:13:01Z jmercouris: So i'd have to look up the slime source for a known indentation and copy/paste itin?
2018-01-18T18:13:18Z Shinmera: Well, INDENTATION is an accessor, but I don't think it'll tell you about functions not covered by trivial-indent itself.
2018-01-18T18:13:51Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Where do you usually put your indentations? alongside your macros?
2018-01-18T18:13:55Z jmercouris: in a separate file?
2018-01-18T18:14:01Z Shinmera: Under the macro in question
2018-01-18T18:14:10Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Very cool package man!
2018-01-18T18:14:15Z _death: jmercouris: if your defcommand takes (name lambda-list &body body) then the indentation should be similar to defun by default
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2018-01-18T18:15:05Z jmercouris: _death: yes, that is what my macro accepts, but for some reason indents differently
2018-01-18T18:15:25Z jmercouris: The number of indents is 4 instead of 2
2018-01-18T18:15:39Z Shinmera: For what? The body?
2018-01-18T18:15:42Z jmercouris: yeah
2018-01-18T18:16:00Z jmercouris: let me show you, one moment please
2018-01-18T18:16:49Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/966a983aa8f0ff6dd5fe0064750504d9
2018-01-18T18:17:16Z sjl: jmercouris: paste the definition of defcommand too
2018-01-18T18:18:04Z jmercouris: sjl: https://github.com/next-browser/next/blob/defcommand/next/source/command.lisp#L25
2018-01-18T18:18:49Z sjl: that looks right.  strange that you're getting an extra indent there
2018-01-18T18:20:17Z jmercouris: Let's see if shinmera's package is the secret sauce
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2018-01-18T18:21:13Z _death: jmercouris: defining that macro and indenting the defcommand form results in correct indentation here.. maybe your slime is {under|over}customized?
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2018-01-18T18:21:33Z jmercouris: _death: One second
2018-01-18T18:22:01Z jmercouris: _death: https://github.com/jmercouris/configuration/blob/master/.emacs.d/develop/_lisp.el
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2018-01-18T18:23:45Z jmercouris: _death: I'm indenting via M-q
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2018-01-18T18:24:04Z jmercouris: paredit-reindent-defun
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2018-01-18T18:24:23Z _death: slime-fancy doesn't include slime-indentation hmm
2018-01-18T18:24:53Z jmercouris: slime-riendent defun produces the same indentation
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2018-01-18T18:27:00Z _death: try adding slime-indentation in the slime-setup call
2018-01-18T18:27:08Z jmercouris: ok, just a moment please
2018-01-18T18:28:21Z jmercouris: nope, still does that
2018-01-18T18:28:33Z jmercouris: I can make a video to illustrate
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2018-01-18T18:30:53Z _death: check that (swank::symbol-indentation 'defcommand) => (4 4 "&body")
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2018-01-18T18:31:33Z jmercouris: shows nil
2018-01-18T18:31:47Z jmercouris: also shows nil for defun
2018-01-18T18:32:02Z _death: for defun an emacs rule is used
2018-01-18T18:32:06Z jmercouris: (swank::symbol-indentation 'defun) --> nil
2018-01-18T18:32:12Z jmercouris: (swank::symbol-indentation 'defcommand) --> nil
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2018-01-18T18:32:39Z jmercouris: completely fresh emacs after having changed slime-indentation in config: https://youtu.be/OWVyu3QDnxk
2018-01-18T18:33:35Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-18T18:33:44Z _death: you can use common-lisp-get-indentation in elisp to check the indentation
2018-01-18T18:34:32Z jmercouris: is that an interactive command?
2018-01-18T18:34:44Z _death: no.. M-x ielm
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2018-01-18T18:36:01Z jmercouris: No idea what ielm is, but it looks like an ELISP repl
2018-01-18T18:36:08Z jasom: is there a lite version of paredit?  I'm thinking one where ( adds a pair of parens and ) jumps to the next closing one only; I have my own solutions for slurp/barf that I prefer.
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2018-01-18T18:36:19Z jmercouris: anyways, (common-lisp-getindentation) results in "Symbols function definition is void"
2018-01-18T18:37:07Z jmercouris: s/common-lisp-getindentation/common-lisp-get-indentation
2018-01-18T18:37:44Z _death: add slime-cl-indent to slime-setup
2018-01-18T18:38:25Z _death: (slime-indentation depends on it.. so it's strange)
2018-01-18T18:38:43Z jmercouris: let me just reload the config
2018-01-18T18:38:47Z jmercouris: maybe restart slime and then do this
2018-01-18T18:39:05Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-18T18:39:39Z jmercouris: okay, it works after restarting slime
2018-01-18T18:39:54Z jmercouris: (common-lisp-get-indentation 'defun) --> (4 &lambda &body)
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2018-01-18T18:41:25Z _death: and defcommand?
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2018-01-18T18:42:38Z jmercouris: (common-lisp-get-indentation 'defcommand) -> 4 (#o4, #x4, ?\C-d)
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2018-01-18T18:43:27Z _death: why not (4 4 &body)
2018-01-18T18:43:32Z jmercouris: I don't know
2018-01-18T18:43:48Z jmercouris: it looks very strange, it has the correct number of elements
2018-01-18T18:44:00Z _death: maybe slime+ccl-related
2018-01-18T18:44:02Z jmercouris: is that hex it is showing?
2018-01-18T18:44:13Z jmercouris: or is # a special symbol in elisp?
2018-01-18T18:44:29Z _death: jmercouris: the result is 4.. the elisp repl just adds a bunch of "helpful" interpretations
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2018-01-18T18:44:57Z _death: jmercouris: 4 in octal, 4 in hex, ascii char corresponding to code 4
2018-01-18T18:45:01Z jmercouris: I was about to say because "o" is definitely not a number in hex :D
2018-01-18T18:45:17Z jmercouris: oh okay, but why the # symbol?
2018-01-18T18:45:45Z jmercouris: every time I see 0x... I always think of hex
2018-01-18T18:45:48Z jmercouris: anyways doesn't matter
2018-01-18T18:45:58Z _death: it's just notation to denote an integer in different bases.. 0x is the C way, #x is the Lisp way
2018-01-18T18:46:30Z jmercouris: oh, so base "o" is octal
2018-01-18T18:46:41Z _death: base 8 is octal
2018-01-18T18:46:50Z jmercouris: I don't see an 8 anywhere in that string
2018-01-18T18:46:57Z _death: this is why October is month number 10, see?
2018-01-18T18:47:08Z jmercouris: I understand how octal binary hexadecimal etc work
2018-01-18T18:47:12Z jmercouris: the question is about #o4
2018-01-18T18:47:18Z jmercouris: what do the individual elements in that string mean?
2018-01-18T18:47:21Z _death: (years used to start on March)
2018-01-18T18:49:32Z _death: jmercouris: in elisp, you just take it as two tokens.. <#o><4>.. in Common Lisp, # is a dispatching macro character and o is a sub-char for octal
2018-01-18T18:49:57Z jmercouris: ok, that is what I was wondering, I get it now
2018-01-18T18:50:02Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-01-18T18:50:34Z jmercouris: just to close the issue, my indentation will simply not work I guess
2018-01-18T18:50:47Z _death: you need to dig further.. it's fun :)
2018-01-18T18:50:55Z _mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-01-18T18:51:14Z jmercouris: Maybe one of my modes is causing issues in some way
2018-01-18T18:51:19Z pjb: _death: the ascii code 4 is not a character code, it's a control code.  There's no ascii character with that code.  The only code corresponding to ascii characters are 32 to 126.
2018-01-18T18:51:43Z jmercouris: If you are curious, here is the info about that buffer: https://gist.github.com/cdfcafa5281a0d20daaee01d4ae3a741
2018-01-18T18:51:46Z pjb: _death: (code-char 4) if it returns non nil, doesn't return an ascii character.
2018-01-18T18:52:01Z pjb: _death: also, notice that it doesn't return a BASE-CHAR.
2018-01-18T18:52:39Z _death: pjb: isn't it a control character..
2018-01-18T18:52:44Z _death: pjb: EOT
2018-01-18T18:52:47Z pjb: Well, it may be BASNE-CHAR, but it's not a standard characters.
2018-01-18T18:52:54Z pjb: EOT is not a CHARACTER it is a CONTROL CODE!
2018-01-18T18:53:08Z jmercouris: as far as I can tell, no packages should be conflicting
2018-01-18T18:53:35Z pjb: _death: it's a question of terminology and definition, and furthermore that's defined in international standards.
2018-01-18T18:53:41Z _death: pjb: I am a long time C programmer.. so you can understand why it's a char for me..
2018-01-18T18:54:45Z _death: pjb: in elisp, ? is used to designate a character.. so it's also a character in emacs terminology (?\C-d)
2018-01-18T18:55:07Z pjb: _death: but in C it's different: char is a integer type! There are NO characters in C!
2018-01-18T18:55:28Z _death: pjb: but I don't think I ever actually read the ASCII standard.. maybe that will change how I perceive it :)
2018-01-18T18:55:31Z pjb: (unless you do something like; typedef struct { int code ; const char* name; /* … *. } character_t;
2018-01-18T18:55:34Z pjb: )
2018-01-18T18:56:01Z pjb: _death: have a look at: http://www.cliki.net/CloserLookAtCharacters
2018-01-18T18:56:45Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-01-18T18:56:50Z _death: pjb: what is #\Eot ?
2018-01-18T18:57:00Z pjb: Some non-standard lisp character.
2018-01-18T18:57:16Z pjb: THat happens to have a name and perhaps a code matching the ASCII CONTROL CODE named EOT.
2018-01-18T18:57:42Z pjb: But perhaps not. Who knows. Have you checked that (= 4 (char-code #\eot)) ?
2018-01-18T18:57:58Z _death: pjb: would you deny that ascii defines a mapping from codes to characters
2018-01-18T18:58:33Z pjb: #+#.(cl:if (cl:eql 4 (cl:read-from-string "#\\eot")) '(:and) '(:or)) (list #\eot)
2018-01-18T18:59:13Z _death: why would reading a character return its code?
2018-01-18T18:59:14Z pjb: _death: ascii defines two mapping: one from some codes to control functions, and one from some other codes to characters.
2018-01-18T18:59:21Z pjb: Oops
2018-01-18T18:59:35Z jmercouris: do you guys enjoy these kinds of discussions :D?
2018-01-18T18:59:47Z pjb: #+#.(cl:if (cl:and (cl:and (cl:read-from-string "#\\eot") (cl:eql 4 (cl:char-code  (cl:read-from-string "#\\eot"))))) '(:and) '(:or)) (list #\eot)
2018-01-18T18:59:53Z jmercouris: I'm not myself supremely interested in the intricacies of what is a control char vs a real char, so I am just curious as to why
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2018-01-18T19:00:15Z pjb: jmercouris: depends if you want your software to break soon or to go on running after you're dead.
2018-01-18T19:00:29Z jmercouris: pjb: Well sure, I care about the quality of my software, and that's why I'm always eager to learn
2018-01-18T19:00:31Z _death: jmercouris: generally I dislike them.. but in this case I may be prompted to read the ascii standard ;)
2018-01-18T19:00:35Z jmercouris: but I am asking a different question
2018-01-18T19:00:57Z jmercouris: pjb: so, is your answer therefore "no, not really, but I'd like to write reliable software"?
2018-01-18T19:01:10Z pjb: jmercouris: there are formal definition. If you don't know them, your code will be approximative, and it will break sooner than later.
2018-01-18T19:01:24Z jmercouris: pjb: This is true, but it is again not the question I asked
2018-01-18T19:01:33Z pjb: jmercouris: everybody has his own pet-peevees.  characters are one of mines.
2018-01-18T19:01:48Z jmercouris: pjb: Do you, or do you not enjoy, for non-practical reaasons, the intricacies of the difference between chars and control code chars
2018-01-18T19:02:14Z jmercouris: So it is not that you enjoy characters, but rather that they annoy you and you have set the record straight?
2018-01-18T19:02:15Z pjb: It's not that I enjoy it, it is, that's it. Like the difference between bosons and leptons.
2018-01-18T19:02:26Z jmercouris: it bothers you when there is misinformation?
2018-01-18T19:02:29Z pjb: yes.
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2018-01-18T19:02:44Z _death: pjb: now, what your code checks is that the character is designated as #\Eot rather than #\End-of-Transmission or #\Stop-It or whatever... I agree that there's no name defined in CL for this character
2018-01-18T19:02:47Z jmercouris: _death: A thrilling read I'm sure :D
2018-01-18T19:02:48Z dfsadsfasdf: simple way to check character is in string?
2018-01-18T19:03:09Z beach: dfsadsfasdf: What?
2018-01-18T19:03:12Z pjb: _death: indeed, since it's not a standard name, and even not a semi-standard one like #\tab, it is arbitary.
2018-01-18T19:03:26Z jmercouris: dfsadsfasdf: you could use regex
2018-01-18T19:03:26Z dfsadsfasdf: beach: how to check character is in string in lisp
2018-01-18T19:03:32Z _death: pjb: but CL implementation that assumes ASCII will have (code-char 4) evaluate to a Lisp character that should mean end of transmission, per the ASCII standard
2018-01-18T19:03:50Z beach: dfsadsfasdf: Do you mean, given a particular string and a particular character, determine whether that character is in the string?
2018-01-18T19:03:55Z jmercouris: dfsadsfasdf: you could also use find
2018-01-18T19:03:57Z beach: clhs find
2018-01-18T19:03:57Z dfsadsfasdf: beach: yes
2018-01-18T19:03:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2018-01-18T19:04:02Z pjb: It would be better, if you need to work with ASCII control codes, to start with (defconstant +eot+ 4), and use (if (code-char +eot+) (format character-stream "foo~C" (code-char +eot+)) (write-byte +eot+ binary-stream))
2018-01-18T19:04:14Z jmercouris: dfsadsfasdf: (find #\t "The Hyperspec contains approximately 110,000 hyperlinks." :test #'equal)
2018-01-18T19:04:31Z dfsadsfasdf: jmercouris: thanks
2018-01-18T19:04:47Z pjb: often it's more useful to use POSITION.
2018-01-18T19:04:54Z _death: pjb: only if you assume you'll work with non-ASCII based implementation
2018-01-18T19:04:55Z dfsadsfasdf: jmercouris: is there nothing simpler, eg (in "c" "cat")?
2018-01-18T19:04:55Z jmercouris: I think he is only interested in booleaness
2018-01-18T19:05:02Z beach: jmercouris: Why on earth would you use EQUAL to test for character equality?
2018-01-18T19:05:11Z pjb: Notice that (find nil #(t t nil t t)) gives the same result as (find nil #(t t t t t))
2018-01-18T19:05:15Z jmercouris: beach: I wouldn't, I just copy/pasta'd quickly from the cl cookbook
2018-01-18T19:05:30Z jmercouris: one could use whatever they like, but I think a simple example is helpful
2018-01-18T19:05:47Z dfsadsfasdf: ok
2018-01-18T19:05:55Z pjb: dfsadsfasdf: if you want simple, you write it yourself: (defun in  (char-designator string-designator) (position (character char-designator) (string string-designator)))
2018-01-18T19:06:09Z beach: jmercouris: No, one should use EQL for reasons of maintenance.
2018-01-18T19:06:18Z dfsadsfasdf: pjb: thanks
2018-01-18T19:06:24Z dfsadsfasdf: I'm new to lisp, coming from python
2018-01-18T19:06:30Z jmercouris: dfsadsfasdf: Welcome!
2018-01-18T19:06:31Z _death: pjb: and if you make that assumption, you should work with binary streams anyway
2018-01-18T19:06:35Z dfsadsfasdf: ty :)
2018-01-18T19:06:53Z _death: pjb: and do the ascii conversion yourself
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2018-01-18T19:07:01Z jmercouris: dfsadsfasdf: I'm also a python developer, so if you wish to frame some questions in python terms, I can help, kind of, I'm still quite new to lisp myself
2018-01-18T19:07:03Z pjb: dfsadsfasdf: the point of using sexps, besides the macros (which were invented 4 years after the sexps), is that they allow you to write operators and functions that merge smoothly in the flow of lisp syntax.
2018-01-18T19:07:26Z pjb: _death: well, already if you have to work with control codes, you should work on binary streams, not on character streams…
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2018-01-18T19:09:16Z jmercouris: pjb: Why?
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2018-01-18T19:09:28Z jmercouris: is there some performance again? some edge case?
2018-01-18T19:09:33Z pjb: because control codes are binary data.
2018-01-18T19:09:43Z jmercouris: all data is binary data, where do we draw the line?
2018-01-18T19:10:22Z _death: pjb: I tend to agree, but I wouldn't see it as disasterous to use characters (i.e. (defconstant eot (code-char 4)) and work with that) if you assume an ASCII-based implementation will be used
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2018-01-18T19:11:07Z jmercouris: pjb: Why for example, would we not look at char arrays, and to find last character iterate byte by byte till we find the control character for the end?
2018-01-18T19:11:15Z pjb: _death: 1- (code-char 4) may return nil, even if the implementation supports an ascii external-format.
2018-01-18T19:11:23Z pjb: 2- it depends on the external-format.
2018-01-18T19:11:23Z jmercouris: or whatever it is in C, I can't remember I think an empty byte or something
2018-01-18T19:11:41Z pjb: jmercouris: not in lisp.
2018-01-18T19:12:01Z jmercouris: pjb: I'll admit, I definitely do not understand
2018-01-18T19:12:09Z _death: pjb: you're saying it may return nil because you don't see it as a character.. which again points to the need to read the ASCII standard I guess
2018-01-18T19:12:14Z jmercouris: I just want to know what you mean by binary data vs character streams
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2018-01-18T19:12:38Z jmercouris: as to why one would be preferable over the other
2018-01-18T19:12:39Z pjb: jmercouris: there's no binary data in lisp. There are integers, and there's the subtype bit = (member 0 1) so you could say that this is binary.  But there is the notion of binary stream which is streams of bytes which are subtypes of integer.
2018-01-18T19:13:05Z pjb: And there are character streams, and a serializer/deserializer to convert between (some) lisp objects and character streams.
2018-01-18T19:13:08Z pjb: (print and read).
2018-01-18T19:13:25Z pjb: _death: it may return nil because that's what clhs says!
2018-01-18T19:13:28Z pjb: clhs code-char
2018-01-18T19:13:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm
2018-01-18T19:13:42Z jmercouris: wouldn't a binary stream be a stream of bits, since you said that bytes don't exist?
2018-01-18T19:14:01Z pjb: Basically, if you read and memorized the clhs, those discussions would mostly disappear.
2018-01-18T19:14:03Z _death: pjb: yes, but I already qualified with the assumption of an "ascii-based implementation".. a fuzzy term that can be used to win an argument :)
2018-01-18T19:14:18Z pjb: _death: again, this is not something that's defined in the clhs.
2018-01-18T19:14:19Z beach: jmercouris: Do you do enjoy these kinds of discussions?
2018-01-18T19:14:28Z jmercouris: beach: Sometimes
2018-01-18T19:14:46Z jmercouris: I think truth and precision are important, on topics of importance
2018-01-18T19:14:48Z pjb: _death: what's defined is that there may be an external format that may use the ascii code to encode the cl standard characters.
2018-01-18T19:15:08Z Bike: maybe han unification can be involved here too somehow. just imagine the possibilities.
2018-01-18T19:15:17Z jmercouris: importance of course being an arbitrary measure, so what is important to me may not be important to you etc
2018-01-18T19:15:41Z _death: pjb: ok.. I will (re?)read the cliki page, and the ascii standard.. maybe this weekend
2018-01-18T19:15:42Z pjb: _death: so if you say something that doesn't exist such as "ascii-based implementation" I hear an "implementation that has an external format using the ascii encoding".  And this doesn't imply that the internal char-code/code-char uses the ascii coding system.
2018-01-18T19:15:43Z jmercouris: Bike: lol
2018-01-18T19:16:14Z _death: pjb: right
2018-01-18T19:16:22Z pjb: jmercouris: indeed, you can use :element-type 'bit and read and write bit by bit. But it's also able to read and wites bytes of more than one bit.
2018-01-18T19:16:32Z pjb: Still call them binary streams.
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2018-01-18T19:17:21Z _death: jmercouris: do you know what a bit is?
2018-01-18T19:17:30Z pjb: Hey, again today, I hear they overestimated the cost of a railways, because they confused miles and km!
2018-01-18T19:17:34Z jmercouris: Okay, so what is the big issue here? that ascii is not being used internally, and therefore a control code may appear erroneously as a character if coerced to a char?
2018-01-18T19:17:35Z pjb: Little details…
2018-01-18T19:17:43Z pjb: Happily for them, they didn't underestimate it…
2018-01-18T19:17:51Z jmercouris: _death: yes, I am a trained computer scientist, believe it or not :D
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2018-01-18T19:18:38Z _death: jmercouris: well, every time I read Claude Shannon it blows me mind all over.. so..
2018-01-18T19:19:24Z jmercouris: _death: What is the implication of your sentence? I don't understand the complete meaning
2018-01-18T19:19:52Z jmercouris: are you saying the definition of a bit by which I operate is a simplification of something more complex?
2018-01-18T19:20:13Z pjb: jmercouris: the big issue is that of conformance (and portability).  The point here is that we cannot make the assumption that (code-char 4) will return anything related to the ASCII control code 4, and that after (with-open-file (ascii-stream "foo" :element-type 'character :external-format *ascii-external-format* :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :supersede) (princ (code-char 4) ascii-stream)) there's: no guarantee that the b
2018-01-18T19:20:13Z pjb: content of the file foo will be a byte of value 4 (= EOT in ASCII).
2018-01-18T19:20:20Z Bike: if i say "1.7 bits" do you have some understanding of what that means
2018-01-18T19:20:40Z jmercouris: Bike: No, as far as I understand it, a bit can only have one state, 0 or 1
2018-01-18T19:20:55Z Bike: then yes, your understanding is a simplification, i guess.
2018-01-18T19:20:56Z _death: jmercouris: yes.. I doubt anyone can grasp what a bit is as fully as possible
2018-01-18T19:21:02Z Bike: not one you probably need to worry about, though.
2018-01-18T19:21:18Z pjb: jmercouris: in information theory, bit is the unit of information.  A lisp bit may contain more or less than one bit of information.
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2018-01-18T19:22:27Z pjb: jmercouris: for example, if we consider: 4*1000  and I tell you that I got a bit valued 0 from that bit-vector, you get 3/4 bit of information about the position of that bit, since you can exclude the position 0 for this bit 0.
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2018-01-18T19:22:52Z Bike: an intuitive way to think of it is, say you have a fair coin and flip it. the information about which way it landed is obviously a bit's worth. but what if the coin is weighted, so that it lands on heads more often? intuitively, there is some amount of informing going on if i tell you it landed heads, but less than a bit.
2018-01-18T19:23:24Z jmercouris: so what is the idea
2018-01-18T19:23:28Z Bike: Anyway long story short, celsius is interconvertible with joules per byte.
2018-01-18T19:23:30Z pjb: If you live in a place where the sky is blue 90% of the time, and grey 10% of the time (during the day), if you ask "Is the sky blue?" and I answer you "yes", you  don't get 1 bit of information, but only 0.1 bit.
2018-01-18T19:23:31Z jmercouris: I can infer more information from a bit than the raw data?
2018-01-18T19:24:03Z jmercouris: how did I not get a full bit of information? I was interested in the state, 2 possibilities, I got one of them
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2018-01-18T19:24:39Z jmercouris: I can't really wrap my head around this
2018-01-18T19:24:43Z pjb:     E-M  E=mc²       E-I  E=hf          M-I  m=fh/c²  f=mc²/h
2018-01-18T19:24:43Z pjb:  
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2018-01-18T19:25:21Z pjb: Bremermann's limit = 2e50  bit/kg/s ; in a human brain: 1e18 bit/kg/s ; there's some margin…
2018-01-18T19:25:38Z pjb: Bremermann's Limit is the maximum computational speed of a self-contained system in the material universe.
2018-01-18T19:25:48Z jmercouris: I've got a few unalloc'd spots in my head, sure :D
2018-01-18T19:26:34Z pjb: Well, it's still quite frightnening: it means that there's no physical impossibility for an artificial (or even natural) intelligence that is astronomically smarter than us.
2018-01-18T19:26:57Z jmercouris: I'm not sure why that would frighten you
2018-01-18T19:27:24Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, but since the states are not equiprobable, the 1 bit of data didn't convey 1 bit of information. You learned less, because the bit of data just confirmed what was the most probable.
2018-01-18T19:27:31Z jmercouris: are you afraid that this potentially superbeing would turn your life into pure suffering or something?
2018-01-18T19:27:47Z jmercouris: pjb: When you frame it in those terms, it makes sense
2018-01-18T19:27:52Z jackdaniel: well, we do it to animals
2018-01-18T19:28:04Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: perhaps we are not smart enough yet
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2018-01-18T19:28:12Z jmercouris: I think with time we are nicer to animals, in the future I predict more niceness
2018-01-18T19:28:20Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, basically it's the Vogon problem.  They just decide to build a hypergalactic highway bypass over the Solar system…
2018-01-18T19:28:46Z pjb: We're nice to animals, but when you build a highway, we don't care about the ants and worms destroyed…
2018-01-18T19:28:50Z jackdaniel: historical data says otherwise
2018-01-18T19:29:19Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Okay, so you are arguing that, in the past, humans behaved nicer to animals?
2018-01-18T19:29:21Z pjb: We cannot generalize, it's a question of civilization and different people have different levels of civilization.
2018-01-18T19:29:21Z jackdaniel: (that smarter actually makes us less emphatical and care less)
2018-01-18T19:29:34Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I really disagree with that
2018-01-18T19:29:40Z jmercouris: by that measure, the dumbest people should be the most empathetic
2018-01-18T19:29:49Z jmercouris: and I believe I can find a correlation between stupidity and racism
2018-01-18T19:29:55Z jmercouris: and racism is a counter example to empathy
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2018-01-18T19:30:19Z pjb: jmercouris: wrong.
2018-01-18T19:30:20Z jackdaniel: your "arguments" aren't very sound, but I've got into offtopic ;)
2018-01-18T19:30:26Z jackdaniel: sorry
2018-01-18T19:30:30Z jmercouris: ok let's go to lispcafe
2018-01-18T19:30:33Z jmercouris: I'm curious about your opinions
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2018-01-18T19:30:57Z jackdaniel: maybe other time, I'm still behind the schedule with many projects
2018-01-18T19:31:05Z jmercouris: ah, that is a cop out!
2018-01-18T19:31:15Z jmercouris: at any rate, read at your own leisure and reply later, best of luck catching up with work
2018-01-18T19:31:28Z jackdaniel: I'm trying to politely say that I'm not interesting in discussing that with you
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2018-01-18T19:31:53Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I'm not sure what I did to give you this opinion of myself, but, I apologize
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2018-01-18T19:33:04Z pjb: jmercouris: well, there's #lispcafe.
2018-01-18T19:33:05Z jackdaniel: you seem to assert I have some particular opinion here – I'm just saying that I'm not interesting in defending my point
2018-01-18T19:33:25Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: You are asserting an opinion, I'm not an idiot
2018-01-18T19:33:44Z jmercouris: it's okay to feel this way about me, I am just letting you know, if at any point I bothered you, I did not mean so
2018-01-18T19:34:02Z jmercouris: I only mean good and peace and happiness in this world
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2018-01-18T19:51:34Z shrdlu68: 1.7 bits sounds like a measure of entropy. I doubt jmercouris is simplifying anything.
2018-01-18T19:51:56Z shrdlu68 is by no means a trained computer scientist.
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2018-01-18T20:46:33Z shka: how can i :insert-into row with postmodern containing simple-date?
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2018-01-18T20:47:01Z shka: doing this naive way, gives me Value #<SIMPLE-DATE:DATE 18-01-2018> can not be converted to an SQL literal. error
2018-01-18T20:48:55Z shka: there is literally nothing in the s-sql file that seems to handle this
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2018-01-18T20:56:02Z aeth: yuck, postmodern doesn't use ISO 8601?
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2018-01-18T21:03:23Z aeth: Looks like postgres itself can accept any format but recommends ISO 8601. https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/datatype-datetime.html#DATATYPE-DATETIME-DATE-TABLE
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2018-01-18T22:36:47Z jmercouris: Shinmera: performing updates?
2018-01-18T22:37:21Z Shinmera: Hm?
2018-01-18T22:37:29Z jmercouris: your bot had quit and rejoined
2018-01-18T22:37:42Z Shinmera: It'll do that if it times out.
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2018-01-18T22:42:06Z jmercouris: ah ok :P
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2018-01-18T22:42:40Z Shinmera: When I update things it's typically a series of reconnects because I never seem to be able to do anything without also breaking twenty things in the process.
2018-01-18T22:42:52Z Shinmera: Well, either that, or no restart is required at all if it goes smoothly.
2018-01-18T22:42:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: welcome to my life :D
2018-01-18T22:43:05Z jmercouris: I think most engineers can relate
2018-01-18T22:43:42Z jmercouris: This is the quintissential: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/my-code-doesnt-work-i-have-no-idea-why.jpg
2018-01-18T22:43:59Z Shinmera: Yeah, well, the system administrator part of me dies a little every time it happens
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2018-01-18T22:44:21Z jmercouris: it's alright, you're an engineer, not a sysadmin, don't give into the devops hype
2018-01-18T22:44:40Z jmercouris: it's just a way for fancy pants SF startups to save labor costs
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2018-01-18T22:46:52Z Shinmera: I am a sysadmin though, I run my own servers.
2018-01-18T22:47:01Z Shinmera: And downtime makes me very sad
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2018-01-18T22:47:59Z jmercouris: I can't think of a clever proverb, but I'm sure one day you'll hit your zero downtime goals :D
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2018-01-19T01:07:19Z pfdietz: So, how DO quicklisp's systems get curated?  Is there a way to tell if they're good or not?
2018-01-19T01:08:09Z jasom: pfdietz: the default distribution merely checks that they have some open-source license *and* that they build on sbcl
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2018-01-19T01:08:51Z pfdietz: The problem is they can interfere with each other.  Just building in isolation isn't enough.
2018-01-19T01:09:19Z pfdietz: I'm wondering because of readtable shenanigans.
2018-01-19T01:10:03Z pfdietz: Package collisions would be another concern; I haven't delved into that.
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2018-01-19T01:13:44Z jasom: pfdietz: I think asdf has made some changes to how readtables are modified; it was made less aggressive to to breaking some systems that assumed loading system X would modify the readtable as a side-effect, so I don't know what the final outcome of that was.
2018-01-19T01:14:27Z jasom: pfdietz: in general the curation is very minimal, so there is no guarantee of quality or completeness
2018-01-19T01:14:50Z jasom: pfdietz: it *does* mean that someone asked for it to be included, so there is that...
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2018-01-19T01:15:10Z Xach: Well, it does lately. I added a lot of stuff without asking at the start, to bootstrap...
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2018-01-19T01:40:29Z aeth: Package name collisions are a near-certainty, especially with nicknames.
2018-01-19T01:40:52Z aeth: Fortunately, most of the probable nickname collisions are libraries that do the exact same thing, probably wrapping the exact same C library.
2018-01-19T01:46:19Z pfdietz: At this point, I mostly care "does loading this system ruin my lisp session".  Purely internal quality is less of a concern.
2018-01-19T01:46:37Z pjb: Libraries must not have any short nickname or package name!
2018-01-19T01:46:49Z pjb: Leave short nicknames to the end user.
2018-01-19T01:47:04Z White_Flame: (must not have any (short nickname) or (package name)) ...
2018-01-19T01:47:07Z pfdietz: I very much like the local nicknames extension.
2018-01-19T01:47:11Z White_Flame: had to parse that for a sec
2018-01-19T01:47:24Z aeth: pfdietz: The thing I care the most about is how many dependencies something brings in
2018-01-19T01:47:41Z pfdietz: I also care if the system uses :: anywhere.  That's a code smell.
2018-01-19T01:47:46Z aeth: Without care, a modest sized application could be using dozens, which also probably means duplicated functionality (e.g. 3 JSON libraries or something)
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2018-01-19T01:52:16Z aeth: pfdietz: It looks like I use "::" twice, to declare a type that's not exported and to fix a performance bug in ECL, i.e. (setf cffi::*cffi-ecl-method* :c/c++)
2018-01-19T01:52:36Z White_Flame: I tend to grab :: often for testing
2018-01-19T01:52:39Z aeth: It looks like the latter is exported from cffi-ecl, though
2018-01-19T01:52:47Z White_Flame: instad of chopping up the packages to make that bit cleaner
2018-01-19T01:53:30Z aeth: oh, sorry, it's in cffi-sys, defined in cffi-ecl.lisp
2018-01-19T01:53:51Z aeth: Either it didn't used to be exported, or I tried to import it without #+ecl
2018-01-19T01:54:10Z aeth: I think I can fix that one now
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2018-01-19T03:02:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-19T05:08:44Z jmercouris: Any data exists about the salary of lisp developers?
2018-01-19T05:08:58Z jmercouris: Yes, location, sector etc, I'm speaking generally
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2018-01-19T06:03:49Z phoe: Good morning
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2018-01-19T06:06:54Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2018-01-19T06:26:19Z phoe: I don't really know.
2018-01-19T06:26:51Z phoe: I want to write a paper extending CLIM2's idea of protocols and extending your extensions of this idea.
2018-01-19T06:27:27Z phoe: But with >9000 other papers on software development, engineering, software modularity and software interfaces, I don't think it would be any kind of significant contribution.
2018-01-19T06:29:51Z beach: I am not sure I share your pessimism.
2018-01-19T06:30:08Z phoe: Don't you?
2018-01-19T06:30:44Z beach: Most work in software engineering etc. assumes an object-oriented model of type Java, with single dispatch and methods in classes.
2018-01-19T06:30:59Z phoe: Hm. This is right.
2018-01-19T06:31:07Z beach: Therefore, some work that is related to generic functions etc could very well be unique.
2018-01-19T06:31:22Z phoe: Sigh.
2018-01-19T06:31:30Z phoe: Well, there goes my pessimism.
2018-01-19T06:31:58Z phoe: Thanks!
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2018-01-19T06:34:20Z beach: Sure. :)
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2018-01-19T07:05:09Z jmercouris: phoe: something something ulhs :P
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2018-01-19T07:55:35Z red-dot: Has anyone seen a good book or reference for format directives? I've read CLHS, PCL and CLtL but still do not really have a good grasp on it. I need to do some character based formatting.
2018-01-19T07:56:00Z red-dot: Amazing that so much functionality can be packed into all that line noise....
2018-01-19T07:56:36Z Shinmera: I've never needed anything beyond PCL and CLHS22.3 on that, so
2018-01-19T07:57:14Z red-dot: Neither did I until now. I need to format tables of data on a terminal; no GUI
2018-01-19T07:57:49Z red-dot: Weitz has a few examples too, but I think the real answer is going to be: 'go experiment'.
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2018-01-19T07:58:36Z Shinmera: Okey, well for that you first have to figure out the widths of each column. Format won't be able to do that for you. Once you got that you just print each row using the width limitations of the format directives for each column.
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2018-01-19T08:01:50Z red-dot: That's what I thought, thanks. Am hoping there are some good examples of this somewhere, or a Guide to Format Directives somewhere. At some point this must have been more commonly used, but I suspect such information did not make it over to the Internet, as it probably pre-dates it.
2018-01-19T08:02:01Z red-dot: Perhaps usenet archives
2018-01-19T08:02:59Z Shinmera: This might not be the best way to do things, but here's an example: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-benchmark/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L9
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2018-01-19T08:04:09Z red-dot: It is a start :-)
2018-01-19T08:04:29Z red-dot: Weitz has a pretty-printer example that might also do the trick. Good thing it is weekend.
2018-01-19T08:05:29Z Shinmera: Wish it was. Friday for me.
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2018-01-19T08:11:06Z jackdaniel: I have a mixed feelings about format which partially overlap with points brought here http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html
2018-01-19T08:11:42Z jackdaniel: I'm not using `out' construct though (yet?)
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2018-01-19T08:22:19Z red-dot: Well, I will not argue that there should not be a better way. Just like LOOP vs. iterate. 'out' might be worth looking at.
2018-01-19T08:23:22Z jackdaniel: disclaimer: I'm not sure if `out' is maintained/finished/published whatsoever
2018-01-19T08:23:34Z jack_rabbit: looking at hunchentoot here. Can't figure out how to set the backlog length.
2018-01-19T08:23:48Z jackdaniel: I've brought it as something relevant to format which was discussed
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2018-01-19T08:24:06Z jack_rabbit: When load-testing, I'm getting "Can't handle a new request, too many request threads already"
2018-01-19T08:24:38Z jack_rabbit: Which makes sense, but I'd prefer those requests to go into a pending queue rather than being dropped altogether.
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2018-01-19T08:33:58Z jack_rabbit: hmm. appears the acceptor has a listen-backlog initarg. But it doesn't appear to eliminate the error message.
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2018-01-19T08:46:51Z Shinmera: Typically when you run out of threads your system is so badly congested that keeping them idle is not going to help and is instead just going to load out your system even worse by taking up FDs
2018-01-19T08:47:12Z Shinmera: So I do not recommend trying to keep a queue.
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2018-01-19T08:48:09Z jack_rabbit: I disagree.
2018-01-19T08:48:38Z jack_rabbit: Keeping a large queue may be unwise, but a queue is totally reasonable under many circumstances.
2018-01-19T08:49:12Z jack_rabbit: anyway, it appears that if I want to increase the queue, I need to alter the taskmaster.
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2018-01-19T08:49:30Z jackdaniel: what you want (keeping aside how its implemented in hunchentoot - you may subclass the taskmaster) is lparallel channel with n workers
2018-01-19T08:50:08Z jackdaniel: (+ one thread to consume the results if you don't really need them around)
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2018-01-19T08:51:58Z jack_rabbit: jackdaniel, not sure I follow.
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2018-01-19T08:57:37Z jack_rabbit: anyway, I manually instantiated a taskmaster with a higher max-accept-count, and everything works as expected now.
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2018-01-19T08:58:45Z jack_rabbit: I wonder, though, if it might be a good patch for the acceptor thread to check (if it can) with the taskmaster to see if the accepted queue is full before accepting, and waiting if it is full.
2018-01-19T08:59:10Z jack_rabbit: Because I increased the listener queue, but the listener was able to happily keep up with the request rate.
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2018-01-19T08:59:44Z jack_rabbit: It was the accepted queue that was rejecting the connections, and even though it was full, the listener was happy to accept connections, causing them to return 503.
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2018-01-19T09:18:00Z hjudt: is there a standard function that does (cdr (assoc ...)) or does one have to write a macro?
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2018-01-19T09:18:49Z Shinmera: You don't have to write a macro for that.
2018-01-19T09:19:00Z Shinmera: In fact you shouldn't. You should write a function for it.
2018-01-19T09:19:04Z jackdaniel:  alexandria:assoc-value
2018-01-19T09:19:10Z jackdaniel: not standard, but alexandria has it
2018-01-19T09:19:27Z hjudt: jackdaniel: thanks
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2018-01-19T09:19:33Z Shinmera: The joke of assoc-value is that it isn't even shorter than (cdr assoc ..))
2018-01-19T09:19:38Z hjudt: Shinmera: yes, a function would of course do too
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2018-01-19T09:20:22Z jackdaniel: it's not about being shorter in writing, it's "shorter" cognitively
2018-01-19T09:20:35Z hjudt: it is easier to read imho
2018-01-19T09:20:44Z jackdaniel: exactly my point
2018-01-19T09:21:10Z hjudt: but only if you import-from not use alexandria:assoc-value directly because that length sucks a bit
2018-01-19T09:21:45Z hjudt: of course for this simple function i could also ignore alexandria and write it on my own...
2018-01-19T09:22:09Z jackdaniel: abbreviation macros come handy at times
2018-01-19T09:22:29Z jackdaniel: I personally find multiple-value-bind and destructuring-bind not very pleasent to write
2018-01-19T09:22:35Z Shinmera: Calling it rassoc (like in elisp) would be fine in my opinion.
2018-01-19T09:22:52Z Shinmera: Or wait no I'm confusing stuff
2018-01-19T09:23:01Z hjudt: isn't there a rassoc? it does reverse lookup?
2018-01-19T09:23:27Z Shinmera: In elisp it's alist-get. rassoc compares the cdr rather than the car.
2018-01-19T09:23:40Z scymtym_: isn't the point of ALEXANDRIA:ASSOC-VALUE that it is a place?
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2018-01-19T09:28:39Z jackdaniel: it is
2018-01-19T09:28:52Z jackdaniel: assoc operations in alexandria are defun + setf-expander
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2018-01-19T10:13:42Z phoe: Is it okay for #'(SETF FOO) to have keyword arguments where #'FOO does not have them?
2018-01-19T10:14:12Z beach: I don't see why not.
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2018-01-19T10:19:41Z jackdaniel:  (setf (foo :forcibly t) 8) ; something like that?
2018-01-19T10:20:28Z phoe: yes
2018-01-19T10:20:39Z phoe: (setf (foo :invalidate-some-other-stuff t) bar)
2018-01-19T10:20:42Z Shinmera: I really wish SETF didn't have the restriction that the value being set has to be returned. It's not unusual that I want to coerce the value being set to something else, which would be more useful to return instead.
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2018-01-19T10:27:50Z scymtym_: phoe: it can make sense to have FOO and (SETF FOO) accept the same set of keyword arguments even if some are ignored in one of the functions: consider (incf (value "counter" :default 5))
2018-01-19T10:28:17Z phoe: scymtym_: that's my worry. But let me explain.
2018-01-19T10:28:28Z phoe: I have an object which holds a compressed and decompressed version of some data.
2018-01-19T10:28:48Z phoe: When I setf the decompressed version, this means that the compressed version no longer refers to the decompressed version - they might be different.
2018-01-19T10:29:04Z phoe: This is why I want to do something like (setf (decompressed-data foo :invalidate-compressed-data-p t) new-data)
2018-01-19T10:29:19Z Shinmera: Is there ever a case where you do not want to keep the two in sync?
2018-01-19T10:29:30Z Shinmera: That sounds like an invitation for trouble to me
2018-01-19T10:29:38Z phoe: Yes, during the initial decompressing of the file.
2018-01-19T10:30:07Z phoe: I first setf the compressed-data, then I uncompress it and setf the compressed-data.
2018-01-19T10:30:27Z Shinmera: Automatically decompress and update the decompressed slot when the compressed slot is set.
2018-01-19T10:30:39Z scymtym_: can you explain why you need this kind of object
2018-01-19T10:30:54Z phoe: I am working with an object representing a binary file.
2018-01-19T10:31:08Z phoe: This binary file consists of multiple (up to thousands) of smaller archives concatenated together.
2018-01-19T10:31:51Z phoe: For efficiency, if I edit one of them, I want only this single one to be recompressed - the other ones can use their original compressed form, the one I originally read from the source file.
2018-01-19T10:32:09Z Shinmera: Yeah but do you ever need both at the same time?
2018-01-19T10:32:22Z phoe: And I don't want to set the compressed slot - I operate only on decompressed data.
2018-01-19T10:32:33Z phoe: Shinmera: not really. Either one or the other.
2018-01-19T10:32:41Z Shinmera: Sounds to me more like you should have a data slot and a flag that says whether it's compressed. Or two subclasses, one being compressed and one being not. Then use change-class (and update-instance-for-changed-class) to handle the compression.
2018-01-19T10:32:55Z phoe: Or rather, yes, I need both of them.
2018-01-19T10:33:09Z phoe: Decompressed form, for reading; compressed form, for saving.
2018-01-19T10:33:34Z Shinmera: Yeah but you synthesise one from the other. When you read or when you save respectively.
2018-01-19T10:33:37Z scymtym_: i'm not sure computing the compressed form eagerly after a change makes sense
2018-01-19T10:33:48Z phoe: Hmm. I see.
2018-01-19T10:34:14Z phoe: It's not about computing the compressed form eagerly.
2018-01-19T10:34:21Z phoe: It's about invalidating previously computed data.
2018-01-19T10:34:34Z phoe: I don't want to instantly compress, I want to slot-makunbound 'compressed-data.
2018-01-19T10:34:34Z scymtym_: maybe i misunderstood
2018-01-19T10:34:51Z phoe: I have an object that holds both compressed and uncompressed variants of the same data.
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2018-01-19T10:35:11Z phoe: The moment I set new decompressed data, I want to purge the old compressed data.
2018-01-19T10:35:44Z phoe: So, when I actually decide to save and compress, my code can compress this thing, set the compressed-data slot, and save it to disk.
2018-01-19T10:36:13Z Shinmera: From my understanding I would do the following: when reading the file read to a list of compressed-data instances. Then when you want to read/write the value, you change-class to decompressed-data first. Finally when you want to save to disk, you change-class them all to compressed-data and write out.
2018-01-19T10:36:32Z phoe: This means that I *re*compress everything.
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2018-01-19T10:36:46Z phoe: If I have 300 files and only change one of them, this means I compress 300 files and not 1.
2018-01-19T10:36:54Z Shinmera: Ah, right.
2018-01-19T10:37:09Z phoe: That's why I need to hold both compressed and decompressed data.
2018-01-19T10:37:14Z scymtym_: sounds like a state chart, maybe via sublcasses is in order: loaded --decompress--> clean --(setf data)--> dirty
2018-01-19T10:38:06Z phoe: Yep, sounds right.
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2018-01-19T10:38:59Z scymtym_: so why the keyword parameter? wouldn't it always invalidate?
2018-01-19T10:39:17Z phoe: The initial loading.
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2018-01-19T10:39:28Z Shinmera: use slot-value
2018-01-19T10:39:30Z phoe: When I load the file, I first set compressed-data. Then I decompress, and set uncompressed-data.
2018-01-19T10:39:37Z Shinmera: That's like, what it's for
2018-01-19T10:39:45Z phoe: Hm. Sounds sane, right.
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2018-01-19T10:40:42Z scymtym_: or, if you really don't like SLOT-VALUE for this, make an internal :accessor %decompressed-data
2018-01-19T10:40:57Z phoe: I can dig SLOT-VALUE in this single case.
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2018-01-19T10:43:21Z phoe: And so my custom writer can be reduced to (defmethod (setf data) :after (...) (invalidate-something))
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2018-01-19T11:33:02Z jack_rabbit: can someone describe the mechanism by which setf is allowed to be a function with a list name?
2018-01-19T11:33:32Z jack_rabbit: I can't seem to define a function with list name except for setf.
2018-01-19T11:33:56Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/function name
2018-01-19T11:33:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#function_name
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2018-01-19T11:34:26Z jack_rabbit: I see.
2018-01-19T11:34:48Z jack_rabbit: It's a special case, and implementations are free to define other setf-like functions.
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2018-01-19T11:36:27Z jack_rabbit: Or I guess, given that description, implementations can even define weirder name structures.
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2018-01-19T14:08:45Z phoe: jack_rabbit: no, why?
2018-01-19T14:09:05Z phoe: the standard is clear, it's either FOO or (SETF FOO), and the implementations are not allowed to extend it in a portable way
2018-01-19T14:09:26Z phoe: they can do whatever they want to, but it won't be standard Common Lisp.
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2018-01-19T14:45:15Z phoe: Is there any kind of GETHASH-OR-DIE in any commonly used utility library?
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2018-01-19T14:45:47Z Shinmera: "die" meaning what?
2018-01-19T14:45:52Z Shinmera: Your implementation crashes?
2018-01-19T14:45:54Z phoe: Signal an error.
2018-01-19T14:46:05Z beach: phoe: It is too easy for a library.
2018-01-19T14:46:19Z phoe: SBCL has a lot of -OR-DIE internal functions and I don't see it crash. (:
2018-01-19T14:46:26Z beach: (multiple-value-bind (value present-p) (gethash ...) (assert present-p) ..)
2018-01-19T14:46:29Z dlowe: (or (gethash foo bar) (die))
2018-01-19T14:46:38Z Shinmera: dlowe: What if it returns NIL as the value?
2018-01-19T14:46:44Z dlowe: DEATH
2018-01-19T14:46:48Z phoe: beach: ASSOC-VALUE is too easy for a library.
2018-01-19T14:46:49Z Shinmera: heh
2018-01-19T14:46:56Z beach: phoe: It is.
2018-01-19T14:47:04Z phoe: Yet alexandria has it.
2018-01-19T14:47:05Z dlowe: 99% of the time, you don't want to store NIL
2018-01-19T14:47:06Z Shinmera: The setf part of assoc-value is not trivial
2018-01-19T14:47:13Z phoe: dlowe: sometimes yes, I do.
2018-01-19T14:47:17Z dlowe: the other 1%, you can do what beach describes
2018-01-19T14:47:27Z dlowe: phoe: probabilities. do you understand them
2018-01-19T14:47:48Z jackdaniel: ensure-list is easy too, yet it's not a bad idea to have it handy in alexandria
2018-01-19T14:48:24Z Shinmera prefers (defun enlist (a &rest parts) (if (listp a) a (list* a parts)))
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2018-01-19T14:52:48Z jdz: That's a weird function.
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2018-01-19T14:54:09Z phoe: A bit more useful, it seems.
2018-01-19T14:54:19Z phoe: (enlist 'foo) is equivalent to (ensure-list 'foo).
2018-01-19T14:54:44Z Shinmera: It's not very often that being able to specify the other parts in the resulting list is useful, but it has come in handy at times.
2018-01-19T14:54:51Z |3b|: (enlist '(1) 2 3)) being (1) seems odd though
2018-01-19T14:55:13Z Shinmera: Well it's odd if you specify the argument directly there no matter what.
2018-01-19T14:55:38Z |3b|: right, was more talking about the case where it was in a variable
2018-01-19T14:55:42Z jackdaniel: I still like ensure-list better
2018-01-19T14:55:54Z |3b|: (enlist a 2 3) may or may not return a list ending with 2 3
2018-01-19T14:56:17Z Bike: yeah i'm curious what you use that for.
2018-01-19T14:56:29Z |3b| probably should have used something with identity, since a could have 2,3 already too
2018-01-19T14:56:43Z |3b| gives up :p
2018-01-19T14:57:51Z Shinmera: A specific instance is: for textures you can specify a wrapping, both in x and y. (enlist wrapping wrapping) means that if it's a single keyword, it goes for both x and y.
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2018-01-19T14:59:04Z Shinmera: Another example: when binding the matrix stack locally you can specify which matrices to bind, and how (copy, zero, identity). So (enlist matrix :copy) means the default behaviour is to copy, but if you want to specify further you can do that too.
2018-01-19T14:59:29Z Shinmera: Obviously you can put this kind of logic into the destructuring part as well
2018-01-19T15:00:13Z Shinmera: With things like LOOP where the destructuring that is available is rather poor, this sort of thing is handy though.
2018-01-19T15:00:56Z |3b|: yeah, can be both "odd" and "useful" at the same time :)
2018-01-19T15:01:24Z |3b|: and most of the things i can think of that would fix my perception of oddness would probably make it verbose enough to no longer be as useful
2018-01-19T15:03:08Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if putting so much meaning into lists stored in variables is a good idea either, but it's only an opinion
2018-01-19T15:03:56Z Xach: late to the party, but
2018-01-19T15:04:10Z Xach: sbcl's convention is "foo-or-lose"
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2018-01-19T15:06:25Z AeroNotix: is there a way to tell sbcl to print symbols by default in lowercase?
2018-01-19T15:06:32Z phoe: AeroNotix: yes
2018-01-19T15:06:33Z Shinmera: clhs *print-case*
2018-01-19T15:06:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cas.htm
2018-01-19T15:06:39Z phoe: oh, he beat me to it
2018-01-19T15:07:02Z AeroNotix: Thanks both!
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2018-01-19T15:07:46Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2018-01-19T15:10:31Z jackdaniel: hello kami
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2018-01-19T15:12:31Z AeroNotix: oh man, I've been writing lisp on and off for years but never thought to see if that :upcase/:downcase behaviour could be changed. QOL improvement for sure
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2018-01-19T15:12:46Z Shinmera: Note that you might also break libraries if you do this
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2018-01-19T15:12:56Z AeroNotix: in what way?
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2018-01-19T15:12:57Z Shinmera: Libraries that depend on the print behaviour of symbols.
2018-01-19T15:13:12Z AeroNotix: Hmm, not sure exactly but that would seem to make them already broken
2018-01-19T15:13:19Z AeroNotix: why would they depend on that behaviour?
2018-01-19T15:13:44Z Shinmera: Serialising a symbol to string can make that happen.
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2018-01-19T15:17:55Z jackdaniel: serialising symbol name*
2018-01-19T15:18:48Z pjb: Only in buggy libraries.
2018-01-19T15:18:48Z Shinmera: No, I meant what I said.
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2018-01-19T15:19:06Z Shinmera: pjb: Sure, it's a bug. I'm just saying.
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2018-01-19T15:29:59Z phoe: Can I print arrays in a readable form while preserving their element-type? How?
2018-01-19T15:30:29Z phoe: Printing a specialized vector of (unsigned-byte 8) gives me #(0 1 2 3) which, when read, is a simple-vector.
2018-01-19T15:30:50Z |3b|: #. or maybe implementation specific syntax
2018-01-19T15:30:58Z jackdaniel: #.
2018-01-19T15:31:00Z jackdaniel: that
2018-01-19T15:31:05Z phoe: #. - okay.
2018-01-19T15:31:11Z pjb: (format t "#.(make-array '~S :element-type '~S :initial-contents '~S)" (array-dimensions a) (array-element-type a) (convert-to-sequence a))
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2018-01-19T15:31:52Z phoe: Thanks.
2018-01-19T15:32:28Z pjb: alternatively: (format t "#.(coerce '~S '~S)" a (type-of a))
2018-01-19T15:33:53Z pjb: May not work depending on how the implementation prints the types and how it takes it for coerce.
2018-01-19T15:34:53Z Bike: phoe: if you use *print-readably* the implementation might figure something out. ECL uses a special form of #a and sbcl adopted that, iirc.
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2018-01-19T15:42:16Z phoe: Bike: I see.
2018-01-19T15:42:40Z Bike: if it can't figure something out it'll signal an error.
2018-01-19T15:42:47Z phoe: Yes, I know that one.
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2018-01-19T15:43:02Z phoe: Though I admit, I'll prefer the #. route because it's standard.
2018-01-19T15:43:38Z phoe: CCL signals an error there, yes.
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2018-01-19T15:47:08Z phoe: clhs *print-pprint-dispatch*
2018-01-19T15:47:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_ppr.htm
2018-01-19T15:47:11Z phoe: " In general, however, you can put a value in *print-pprint-dispatch* that makes pretty-printed output look exactly like non-pretty-printed output."
2018-01-19T15:47:16Z phoe: How do I do this?
2018-01-19T15:47:21Z phoe: Has anyone done this before?
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2018-01-19T15:49:04Z phoe: Inside some dynamic environment, I want to print all non-string vectors as #.(MAKE-ARRAY ... :ELEMENT-TYPE ... :INITIAL-CONTENTS ...) - I guessed that I can do this by hacking the pretty-printer dispatch table and feeding it a function that prints them like this.
2018-01-19T15:49:41Z phoe: But this means that everything else will be pretty-printed, which is not readable. So I want to tell the pretty-printer dispatch table to print everything in a not-pretty way.
2018-01-19T15:49:44Z phoe: How do I do this?
2018-01-19T15:50:14Z pjb: I would just write my own printing function.
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2018-01-19T15:52:39Z phoe: I wish I could just define a PRINT-OBJECT method on VECTOR, but that ain't portable.
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2018-01-19T15:54:39Z pjb: I consider print and print-object only for debugging purposes.  Not for enterprisy serialization.
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2018-01-19T15:55:00Z Bike: they're kind of overcomplicated for just debugging
2018-01-19T15:56:12Z pjb: Otherwise, you can wrap your arrays in an object, and use print-object on that class.
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2018-01-19T15:57:36Z |3b|: could put a function in pprint-dispatch that just rebind print-pretty to nil and prints again, but don't see any way to get an empty dispatch table or enumerate the contents to be sure you replaced everything in it
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2018-01-19T15:59:58Z |3b|: (possibly with something to detect loops, in case some print-object tries to pprint things)
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2018-01-19T16:04:45Z phoe: I wish I could get an empty pprint dispatch table.
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2018-01-19T16:05:00Z phoe: NAMED-READTABLES have figured out a way to do this, but it does it via portable code.
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2018-01-19T16:09:07Z phoe: ...and ALEXANDRIA could use a COERCEF.
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2018-01-19T16:23:57Z _death: already has it
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2018-01-19T16:28:46Z phoe: ...oh
2018-01-19T16:30:57Z phoe: good
2018-01-19T16:31:10Z phoe: I hadn't use-package'd it.
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2018-01-19T17:18:45Z beach: clhs read
2018-01-19T17:18:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2018-01-19T17:19:08Z beach: Can someone help me interpret the paragraph "Exceptional Situations:", please?
2018-01-19T17:19:21Z beach: First it says "regardless of eof-error-p".
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2018-01-19T17:19:43Z beach: Then it says "This is detected when ... AND eof-error-p non-nil"
2018-01-19T17:20:16Z whoman: well
2018-01-19T17:20:51Z whoman: it also says regardless ?
2018-01-19T17:21:06Z whoman: ohh
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2018-01-19T17:22:33Z tfb: it signals en eof error *regardless of eof-error-p* if you hit the end of file while (say) reading a string or list
2018-01-19T17:22:39Z whoman: so if it is called when recursive-p AND eof-error-p ..
2018-01-19T17:23:03Z whoman: tfb but it says , the eof is detected when eof-error-p and recursive-p are non-nil
2018-01-19T17:23:24Z beach: tfb: That part I understand.  But then it seems to require eof-error-p to be non-nil for this situation to be detected.
2018-01-19T17:23:27Z whoman: i really think it would be better if the hyperspec was more CODE. (same with legal documents)
2018-01-19T17:23:44Z whoman: only if recursive-p i think, beach
2018-01-19T17:23:54Z beach: That is what I am thinking too.
2018-01-19T17:23:58Z tfb: no that's before the *beginning* of an object
2018-01-19T17:24:14Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-01-19T17:24:36Z beach: er, no I don't see it.
2018-01-19T17:24:53Z beach: In "This is detected..." what is "This"?
2018-01-19T17:25:09Z beach: It must be "if the file ends in the middle of an object representation", no?
2018-01-19T17:25:38Z tfb: if you are recursive-p is true then you are in the middle of an object by assumption.
2018-01-19T17:25:51Z tfb: But I'm not actually sure if the wording is right now
2018-01-19T17:26:29Z beach: I think I know how to implement it, but I can't figure out why they say that eof-error-p is non-nil.
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2018-01-19T17:30:51Z whoman: beach, the condition of eof = This
2018-01-19T17:30:52Z tfb: My guess is that if recursive-p is true then you need to signal regardless of eof-error-p since you are in the middle of reading something
2018-01-19T17:31:03Z random-nick: maybe that means the recursive calls to read when encountering something like ( have recursive-p and eof-error-p non-nil so that the toplevel call to read gets the error
2018-01-19T17:31:05Z tfb: and that there's a bug in the spec about that
2018-01-19T17:31:27Z tfb: alternatively, recursive calls must also set eof-error-p true
2018-01-19T17:31:40Z whoman: hmmm yeah
2018-01-19T17:31:40Z tfb: but nothing says that
2018-01-19T17:32:16Z whoman: english is not so great at conveying logic
2018-01-19T17:32:44Z tfb: whoman: but specifications written in some logical formalism are insanely hard to understand (for me)
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2018-01-19T17:32:52Z whoman: well it could be. but i think the CLHS could benefit from some more mathematical/logical descriptions. beyond the useless syntax graphics.
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2018-01-19T17:32:57Z random-nick: I think "This" refers to "if a file does not contain enough right parentheses to balance the left parentheses in it"
2018-01-19T17:33:10Z whoman: tfb, i mean like in lisp code =) CL pseudo code
2018-01-19T17:33:54Z tfb: whoman: yes
2018-01-19T17:34:04Z whoman: eg. translating that section ("Excep...") into 'generic' CL
2018-01-19T17:34:04Z beach: random-nick: Yes, when READ is called recursively, it should be called with that flag being true.
2018-01-19T17:34:22Z beach: tfb: Ah, that's an idea.
2018-01-19T17:34:24Z whoman: there is a project (forgetting the name, again) which implements CL in an implementation-independant way. like a reference, i guess
2018-01-19T17:34:49Z pjb: sicl
2018-01-19T17:35:00Z jasom:      sicl is very much not implementation-independant
2018-01-19T17:35:25Z jasom: e.g. it's loop implementation will not work unless you have first-class global environments
2018-01-19T17:35:30Z pjb: It is very implementation independent.  It's written in conforming CL.
2018-01-19T17:35:45Z beach: jasom: That just isn't true.  Where did you get that from?
2018-01-19T17:36:08Z jasom: beach: I thought I got it from you... *checks logs*
2018-01-19T17:36:24Z beach: SICL LOOP requires CLOS but not first-class global environments.
2018-01-19T17:37:15Z beach: whoman: Is SICL the project you are thinking of?  There is an older project (abandoned I think) that did something simpler than what SICL is attempting.
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2018-01-19T17:37:30Z jasom: "2016-05-30 22:09:47 beach   jasom: Currently, in order to use SICL LOOP, you need first-class global environments to avoid the package lock."
2018-01-19T17:37:45Z jasom: maybe that's no longer true
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2018-01-19T17:38:04Z beach: Sure, but that would be true for any implementation of LOOP.
2018-01-19T17:38:25Z beach: If you try to load your own LOOP macro into SBCL, then you trip the package lock.
2018-01-19T17:38:41Z jasom: ah, it defines it as cl:loop, not some other package?
2018-01-19T17:38:49Z beach: Of course.
2018-01-19T17:38:55Z beach: It is a native implementation of LOOP.
2018-01-19T17:39:41Z beach: I think I did it so that you can create a sicl-loop package and not define the macro itself.  That way, you can define package:loop to call the support functions.
2018-01-19T17:40:09Z jasom: If I wanted to use sicl in a lisp bootstrapped by sbcl, how would I go about doing so?
2018-01-19T17:40:47Z beach: That would depend on the Lisp in question, I would think.
2018-01-19T17:40:57Z beach: It would depend on how that Lisp is bootstrapped.
2018-01-19T17:41:54Z jasom: got it; I misunderstood your answer then
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2018-01-19T17:42:00Z beach: The SICL Loop macro is very small https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Loop/loop-defmacro.lisp
2018-01-19T17:42:27Z beach: So if you just omit it and define your own replacement in the package of your choice, you can use the full SICL LOOP.
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2018-01-19T17:43:18Z jasom: that makes sense.  The implementation I was planning on using it from (jscl) has since gotten loop via a port from Symbolics's implementation
2018-01-19T17:43:37Z beach: But I fully admit that I still have to come up with a configuration of one or more ASDF system definitions that will work both natively, and when someone wants to try the system in some other implementation without tripping the package lock.
2018-01-19T17:45:48Z |3b|: clhs 23.1.3.2
2018-01-19T17:45:48Z specbot: The RECURSIVE-P argument: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_acb.htm
2018-01-19T17:46:26Z jasom: beach: hmm, SICL looks way more complete than the last time I looked at it
2018-01-19T17:46:33Z beach: |3b|: Oh, thanks!
2018-01-19T17:46:35Z |3b|: beach: looks like "this" is the specific condition of eof in the middle of an object rather than eof in general
2018-01-19T17:47:01Z beach: jasom: Most of the code is there, but I am making slow progress on the bootstrapping part.
2018-01-19T17:47:51Z |3b|: though READ specifies the same error type in both cases
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2018-01-19T17:48:00Z beach: Yeah.
2018-01-19T17:48:05Z jasom: beach: so it's not quite at the point where I can make an hir-to-target translator and push a button to bootstrap?
2018-01-19T17:48:13Z beach: |3b|: Still that's more information.  Thanks.
2018-01-19T17:48:24Z beach: jasom: Nope, sorry.
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2018-01-19T17:48:42Z jasom: beach: don't apologize; a greenfield CL implementation is an obscene amount of work!
2018-01-19T17:48:52Z beach: jasom: Well, not quite true.  If all you want is a file compiler, then everything is in place.
2018-01-19T17:49:14Z beach: jasom: The hard part is bootstrapping a native system.
2018-01-19T17:49:41Z jasom: beach: that *might* be sufficient for what I'm looking for; but isn't a runtime needed?
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2018-01-19T17:49:49Z beach: My (admittedly small) family is calling me to dinner.  I'll be back later.
2018-01-19T17:49:53Z jasom: beach: enjoy!
2018-01-19T17:50:07Z beach: Yes, you would need your own Common Lisp implementation (the runtime).
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2018-01-19T17:52:56Z dmiles: jasom: are you improving jscl ?
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2018-01-19T18:01:35Z jasom: dmiles: this was like 2 years ago that I looked into it
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2018-01-19T18:02:49Z dmiles: mostly i was asking to see if jscl is getting more love and improvement
2018-01-19T18:03:22Z whoman: would be nice eh
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2018-01-19T18:31:12Z jmercouris: We have #\return, but we don't have #\escape
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2018-01-19T18:31:19Z jmercouris: so how do we represent escape?
2018-01-19T18:32:00Z phoe: jmercouris: where?
2018-01-19T18:32:13Z phoe: where do you want to put this escape?
2018-01-19T18:32:26Z jmercouris: I would like to put it inline in code
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2018-01-19T18:32:33Z Bike: i don't think you even have #\Return, standardly
2018-01-19T18:32:34Z jmercouris: I have this for example: (setf (gethash "RETURN" *character-conversion-table*) (char-code #\Return))
2018-01-19T18:32:39Z Bike: so, #\Escape works for me
2018-01-19T18:32:46Z jmercouris: Escape works for you?
2018-01-19T18:32:56Z jmercouris: interesting, it works for me too
2018-01-19T18:33:02Z jmercouris: it wasn't coming up as a completion so I didn't try it
2018-01-19T18:33:02Z Bike: also, are you aware of name-char
2018-01-19T18:33:08Z jmercouris: I am not aware of name-char
2018-01-19T18:33:14Z Bike: (name-char "Escape") => #\Esc
2018-01-19T18:33:27Z jmercouris: aha, that is very useful
2018-01-19T18:33:27Z Bike: (name-char "Return") => #\Return
2018-01-19T18:33:28Z Bike: etc
2018-01-19T18:33:46Z jmercouris: okay, so will name-char "Escape" return different values on different implementations?
2018-01-19T18:34:03Z |3b|: probably not any you care about
2018-01-19T18:34:05Z jmercouris: since you said that #\Return was not standard
2018-01-19T18:34:06Z jmercouris: okay
2018-01-19T18:34:14Z jmercouris: Good, I will just leave it at #\Esc then
2018-01-19T18:34:21Z Bike: clhs 13.1.7
2018-01-19T18:34:21Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2018-01-19T18:34:23Z Bike: is the standard names
2018-01-19T18:34:33Z |3b| probably wouldn't use a non-unicode lisp without a good reason these days
2018-01-19T18:34:37Z Bike: however, everyone uses ascii and most use unicode
2018-01-19T18:34:52Z jmercouris: I see
2018-01-19T18:34:55Z jmercouris: okay, thank you
2018-01-19T18:35:04Z |3b|: and even less so if it also wasn't ascii (or some simple superset)
2018-01-19T18:35:08Z jmercouris: as you can see in that clhs link, doesn't appear that escape is there
2018-01-19T18:35:34Z |3b|: clhs 2.1.3
2018-01-19T18:35:34Z specbot: Standard Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ac.htm
2018-01-19T18:35:48Z jmercouris: so, will (char-code #\Return) return a different value in a unicode vs ascii based implementation?
2018-01-19T18:36:13Z dlowe: the bottom values of unicode are ascii, so no
2018-01-19T18:36:15Z |3b|: unicode and ascii overlap, so should be the same
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2018-01-19T18:36:26Z jmercouris: Ok, good
2018-01-19T18:36:31Z jmercouris: so unicode is just an extension of ascii
2018-01-19T18:36:38Z jmercouris: so as long as some value values within the ascii set, it willbe okay
2018-01-19T18:36:49Z jmercouris: well, that's a simplification I am sure, but for my purposes it is enough
2018-01-19T18:37:04Z dlowe: yeah, for all encodings I'm aware of
2018-01-19T18:38:02Z jmercouris: thanks guys
2018-01-19T18:38:48Z shrdlu68: On SBCL at least, other characters also have names, like #\Trade_Mark_Sign
2018-01-19T18:39:10Z sjl: UTF-8, not "unicode", is an extension of ASCII
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2018-01-19T18:39:35Z sjl: e.g. UTF-32 a != ASCII a
2018-01-19T18:39:54Z |3b|: unicode a = ascii a
2018-01-19T18:39:56Z dlowe: sjl: being preceded by three zero bytes
2018-01-19T18:39:57Z jasom uses UTF-24
2018-01-19T18:40:03Z dlowe: so you know, basically the same number
2018-01-19T18:40:31Z |3b|: most encodings of unicode a aren't (only) ascii a
2018-01-19T18:40:43Z sjl: "unicode" isn't an encoding
2018-01-19T18:41:01Z dlowe: neither is "ascii" necessarily.
2018-01-19T18:41:11Z jasom: it started out as an encoding, but they abandoned that once it was clear that the 2**16 wasn't nearly enough
2018-01-19T18:41:14Z Bike: is this important
2018-01-19T18:41:22Z Bike: in this context
2018-01-19T18:41:24Z dlowe: Bike: no, but I knew someone was going to bring it up
2018-01-19T18:41:33Z |3b|: in the context of code-char, "encoding" doesn't matter :)
2018-01-19T18:41:44Z Bike: because there was already a long argument about characters or something yesterday
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2018-01-19T18:42:11Z dlowe: Truth can only be reached by arguing over the same details over and over again.
2018-01-19T18:42:21Z jasom: jmercouris: (char-code #\Return) can return any number whatsoever and still be conforming.  In practice all modern implementations will return the unicode code-point
2018-01-19T18:42:48Z jmercouris: jasom: Good enough for me :)
2018-01-19T18:43:02Z jasom: and the first unicode code-points are identical to iso-8859-1 which is a superset of ascii
2018-01-19T18:43:02Z jmercouris: when the day comes that a random implementation changes that I'll put a +sbcl :D
2018-01-19T18:43:19Z |3b| wants a lisp with complex code-chars now
2018-01-19T18:43:19Z jasom: s/first/first 256
2018-01-19T18:43:27Z shrdlu68 just tried "man unicode"
2018-01-19T18:43:40Z |3b|: (char-code is limited to positive integers < char-code-limit)
2018-01-19T18:43:42Z jasom: |3b|: it must be a non-negative integer
2018-01-19T18:43:50Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#character_code
2018-01-19T18:43:50Z |3b|: yeah, non-negative
2018-01-19T18:44:22Z |3b| is mostly just being amused by the implications of "any number" :)
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2018-01-19T18:44:41Z jasom: also two different characters may have the same code in a conforming implementation
2018-01-19T18:44:44Z _death: we need ebcdiclisp
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2018-01-19T18:49:51Z shrdlu68: Given all this, how would one collect a range of characters. For example if I wanted #\a to #\z, would
2018-01-19T18:49:54Z shrdlu68: (loop with start = (char-code #\a)
2018-01-19T18:49:57Z shrdlu68:                for n from start to (+ start 25)
2018-01-19T18:50:00Z shrdlu68:                collecting (code-char n))
2018-01-19T18:50:04Z shrdlu68: be a portable solution?
2018-01-19T18:50:48Z jasom: shrdlu68: only if the characters have the same implementation-defined attributes
2018-01-19T18:51:48Z jasom: shrdlu68: actually not; the spec only defines that #\z > #\a , not that there are exactly 26 characters in the range #\a - #\z
2018-01-19T18:52:49Z |3b|: "it is permissible for uppercase and lowercase characters to be interleaved"
2018-01-19T18:53:01Z jasom: and indeed in EBCDIC there are more than 26 codes between a and z
2018-01-19T18:53:19Z shrdlu68: I see. So what would be a portable way to collect a range of characters?
2018-01-19T18:53:30Z sjl: e.g. a Lisp made by an Icelandic person might have (= (char-code #\ð) (char-code #\d))
2018-01-19T18:53:34Z _death: enumerate the characters you want
2018-01-19T18:53:36Z Bike: (map 'list #'char-code "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz")
2018-01-19T18:53:44Z |3b|: assume ascii/unicode, and let whoever uses the odd lisp send you a patch? :)
2018-01-19T18:53:56Z sjl: er
2018-01-19T18:54:03Z sjl: (1+ (char-code #\d)) rather
2018-01-19T18:54:35Z Bike: a lisp made by an icelandic person who hates their language and just collapses all the funny characters to english ones
2018-01-19T18:54:59Z _death: you could also define the tables for the standards you care about or use a library
2018-01-19T18:55:28Z sjl: Bike: yeah should have added the 1+ in there
2018-01-19T18:55:44Z jmercouris: jasom: just curious, are you using next at all or no?
2018-01-19T18:55:57Z Bike: i think old english used that character, so maybe it can be included anyway, tho
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2018-01-19T18:56:25Z jasom: jmercouris: not currently
2018-01-19T18:56:36Z jmercouris: jasom: Have you tried it since the release?
2018-01-19T18:56:42Z jmercouris: what are the barriers for your full time adoption?
2018-01-19T18:57:00Z tfb: sjl: well, they could differ on implementation-defined attributes.
2018-01-19T18:57:22Z jasom: jmercouris: honestly, I'm happy with firefox
2018-01-19T18:57:57Z jmercouris: I see, so you are just not the target audience
2018-01-19T18:58:03Z jmercouris: ok, fair enough
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2018-01-19T19:41:43Z AeroNotix: jasom: next is kind of like applying the emacs philosphy to your browser
2018-01-19T19:41:51Z AeroNotix: I tried to do it with lispkit but life got in the way
2018-01-19T19:46:58Z jasom: AeroNotix: right, and I use emacs soley as a platform for running slime
2018-01-19T19:47:05Z jasom: so I'm not the target audience
2018-01-19T19:47:35Z AeroNotix: yeah, that's cool
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2018-01-19T19:47:54Z AeroNotix: I personally am not happy with how browsers currently work and lispki/next scratch that itch
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2018-01-19T21:08:35Z emaczen: How much of a speedup can I expect with SBCL if I declaim and declare my functions/methods
2018-01-19T21:08:45Z emaczen: Most of this code uses CLOS
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2018-01-19T21:09:32Z jasom: emaczen: generic function calls  are not significantly affected by declarations in sbcl, since you are free to add methods at any time
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2018-01-19T21:11:14Z emaczen: I understand that, but I'm pretty content with the relationships amongst my classes -- I would have to rewrite it all without CLOS to get it to be fast??
2018-01-19T21:11:36Z Bike: there's more than one way to make it fast
2018-01-19T21:12:02Z emaczen: Bike: suggestions?
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2018-01-19T21:12:42Z emaczen: Bike: generically though?
2018-01-19T21:12:56Z emaczen: I've already swapped out some data structures etc...
2018-01-19T21:14:00Z Bike: you want general advice for optimizing unknown programs? profile and see if you can think of a smarter algorithm for the slow parts
2018-01-19T21:14:36Z jasom: a non-generic inlined function with an etypecase that calls the actual implementations is *significantly* faster on sbcl than GF dispatch, so if you have small functions, you will be held back by GF dispatch (but as Bike says, profile first, then optimize)
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2018-01-19T21:17:17Z emaczen: do you recommend slime-sprof?
2018-01-19T21:17:33Z jasom: yes
2018-01-19T21:17:41Z jasom: er I use sb-sprof, not sure what slime-sprof is
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2018-01-19T21:17:47Z jasom: (I assume it's a slime frontend for it)
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2018-01-19T21:21:00Z Shinmera: It is
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2018-01-19T21:21:05Z Shinmera: it makes the output actually readable
2018-01-19T21:21:08Z Shinmera: Quit nice, in fact
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2018-01-19T21:21:28Z emaczen: Shinmera: I'm lookinat at slime-sprof-report
2018-01-19T21:21:29Z pjb: Convert your classes to fixnum, work only with fixnums.
2018-01-19T21:22:03Z emaczen: What do self% cumul% and total% mean exactly?
2018-01-19T21:22:10Z emaczen: Is the ranking reliable?
2018-01-19T21:22:47Z emaczen: pjb: are you serious?
2018-01-19T21:22:59Z jasom: self% what fraction of samples were in this one; cumul% what fraction of samples were in this one, or ones above it; total% what fraction of samples were either in this one, or this one was on the call-stack
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2018-01-19T21:26:34Z pjb: emaczen: It's just to show you how silly the quest for speed is.
2018-01-19T21:26:46Z pjb: You can do it faster, do it in assembly (fixnums).
2018-01-19T21:26:50Z pjb: Then what?
2018-01-19T21:27:11Z pjb: full of bugs, unmaintainable,
2018-01-19T21:27:18Z pjb: not better than C.
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2018-01-19T21:28:27Z emaczen: Is there an easy replace of remove-if-not? it is highly ranked
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2018-01-19T21:28:38Z Bike: remove-if-not is kind of inherently expensive.
2018-01-19T21:29:00Z Bike: this is why i said, find better algorithms, rather than doing stuff like declaring types
2018-01-19T21:29:50Z pjb: Sure: (remove-if (complement f) …) = (remove-if-not f …)
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2018-01-19T21:30:46Z pjb: Fastest way to remove elements from a list, is not to add them there in the first place.
2018-01-19T21:31:15Z Bike: pjb, could you please just say what you mean outright rather than waiting for a confused "are you serious" so you can pontificate
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2018-01-19T21:31:40Z pjb: Use cache.
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2018-01-19T21:34:01Z pjb: Don't you know that you can trade space for time and vice versa?
2018-01-19T21:34:47Z flip214: I'd like to trade a few m³ of empty air against 3 years, please.
2018-01-19T21:34:59Z rjmacready: :D
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2018-01-19T21:36:23Z emaczen: pjb: I've already done some preliminary hashing
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2018-01-19T21:36:46Z aeth: emaczen: At least ime, it's rarely worth doing type declarations if it's not a sequence or a number.
2018-01-19T21:37:30Z aeth: Sequences can make a huge difference, especially if the type information you give is a known length rather than * length
2018-01-19T21:37:30Z pjb: flip214: I'm afraid that given light speed is so high, you will need much more space.
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2018-01-19T21:38:00Z aeth: And numbers remove the generic arithmetic if you define the right number subtypes
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2018-01-19T21:38:27Z aeth: (This is SBCL, other implementations might be further behind, but they'll probably catch up eventually.)
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2018-01-19T21:39:32Z aeth: But that's because sequences and arithmetic functions are a special kind of non-CLOS generic function, where type information is very useful.
2018-01-19T21:40:33Z pjb: flip214: basically, you would have to duplicate the solar system, move the duplicate 3 years behind (about 25,000 light years behind).  Then when you want to go back in time, you would have to travel those 25,000 light years very fast…
2018-01-19T21:41:07Z flip214: pjb: as light has nearly no width, I can fold it up into a hilbert-curve, so I can easily store 3 light years in a container of, say, 2x2x2 m³.
2018-01-19T21:41:26Z jasom: light has significant width
2018-01-19T21:41:52Z pjb: Sorry, I meant 75,000 light years above.  It's incredible, but we're travelling at a speed of 24,194.16 light years each year!
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2018-01-19T21:42:53Z flip214: jasom: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=width+of+light says 17.51 pico meters
2018-01-19T21:43:15Z flip214: pjb: we are?
2018-01-19T21:43:21Z flip214: in which direction?
2018-01-19T21:43:31Z pjb: Coarsely, toward north.
2018-01-19T21:43:36Z jasom: diffraction effects happen at multiples of the wavelength, and the wavelength of even visible light is on the order of a micron
2018-01-19T21:44:52Z pjb: Now, it's possible that the orbit of the planets doesn't change plane when we circle around the galaxy center, so the direction depends on the time of the galactic year. I would assume.
2018-01-19T21:45:00Z jasom: flip214: did you read what that calculation does?  It calculates the width of a fluid flowing at a hight of 1 inch, a flow-rate of 8L/min and linear velocity of c
2018-01-19T21:45:40Z pjb: It's about 1/1300 c.
2018-01-19T21:45:51Z flip214: jasom: yes, I did. but with all the details it's not that much fun any more.
2018-01-19T21:45:55Z jasom: change it to 8e100 L/min and you get a width of 1.751e86 km
2018-01-19T21:46:14Z jasom: so your light can't even fit in a 2x2x2 meter box
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2018-01-19T21:46:35Z flip214: pjb: 1/1300 c I can believe, but what about your 24e3 c above?
2018-01-19T21:46:38Z pjb: but light can be superposed.
2018-01-19T21:46:42Z aeth: emaczen: I think the main thing you get from type declarations for most types is type checking at the beginning of the function (in SBCL, actually before the beginning), instead of when you call a function that expects a different type at some point in the middle of the function, e.g. this will prevent "Hello, world!" from showing up: (defun foobar (x) (declare (list x)) (format t "Hello, world!~%") (car x)) (foobar 1)
2018-01-19T21:46:55Z pjb: flip214: light.year is not a speed, it's a distance!
2018-01-19T21:47:15Z pjb: light.year/year is a speed.  It's 230e3 m/s
2018-01-19T21:47:17Z flip214: pjb: I know that. but you wrote "per year", so that's a velocity again.
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2018-01-19T21:47:47Z aeth: (In SBCL the difference with a check-type at the top of a function is that check-type is slightly less efficient, but lets you recover by providing a valid value at runtime)
2018-01-19T21:47:56Z flip214: c * 1y / 1y = c, in my book.
2018-01-19T21:48:24Z pjb: yes, and c = 299792458 m/s
2018-01-19T21:48:28Z flip214: and _my_ c is 299792458 m/s, not your lousy 230e3
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2018-01-19T21:48:57Z pjb: 24,194.16 light.year/year = 230e3 m/s
2018-01-19T21:49:39Z flip214: pjb: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=light+*+year+%2F+year
2018-01-19T21:49:44Z flip214: 2.998×10^8 m/s (meters per second)
2018-01-19T21:49:53Z flip214: not sure how you get to 230e3 m/s
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2018-01-19T21:50:07Z jasom: pjb: TIL we are all tachyons
2018-01-19T21:50:08Z flip214: is that in a neutronium star or something?
2018-01-19T21:50:19Z pjb: 230e3 m/s is the  speed of the Sun around the galaxy. Don't you know where you live?
2018-01-19T21:50:45Z flip214: but what's that got to do with "light"?
2018-01-19T21:50:50Z aeth: emaczen: If you inline things all of the way, with an eventual etypecase or typecase, you will probably see SBCL remove the branches that won't happen (i.e. the other types) automatically. An alternative would be https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/ for inline type-based dispatch or https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/ for inline CLOS dispatch
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2018-01-19T21:51:48Z pjb: flip214: there's no sense in giving astronomical distances in other units than light.year.  Expressing speeds in light.year/s  is also way more meaningful than keeping m/s.
2018-01-19T21:53:07Z pjb: Actually, even short distances are better expressed relative to light. Eg. your leg is about 3 ns.light long.  Way more informative than saying that it's about one yard long.
2018-01-19T21:53:33Z flip214: pjb: but using the galaxy as zero point is very galacti-centric again. same mistake as, eg., Kopernikus.
2018-01-19T21:53:59Z pjb: 6 ns.light from your feet to your brains means that you cannot feel anything fromr your feet but 6 ns too late.
2018-01-19T21:54:21Z pjb: flip214: as long as we don't have the mean to travel faster, it'll do.
2018-01-19T21:54:23Z flip214: pjb: well, within the solar system AE is a nice measure, too. in my youth the parsec was en vogue, but that's changed to light years, yeah.
2018-01-19T21:54:47Z pjb: Nope. AE is nice when you can't move.  light.year is what you need when you travel.
2018-01-19T21:54:52Z flip214: pjb: don't believe in precognition, or tachyons, or hyperspace?
2018-01-19T21:54:55Z pjb: And we do, eg. Voyager.
2018-01-19T21:55:01Z flip214: V'ger
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2018-01-19T21:55:47Z flip214: pjb: well, you keep your initial system, and I'll use mine. currently I'm at rest, it's nearly 11pm ;)
2018-01-19T21:55:52Z flip214: *inertial
2018-01-19T21:55:58Z pjb: Notice also that when parsecs are used, they mostly don't know the radial distances and speed in general.  It's a nice unit, but so limited…
2018-01-19T21:56:50Z pjb: If you want to take it into account, the speed of the Milky Way relative to the Local Group is about 600 km/s.
2018-01-19T21:57:11Z flip214: what? 1 parsec is defined via the AE, no need for other radial distances or speeds. 1 parsec = 3.262 ly
2018-01-19T21:57:32Z pjb: about 63,000 light.year/year
2018-01-19T21:57:39Z Shinmera: >>#physics or #lispcafe, thanks
2018-01-19T21:57:46Z flip214: Shinmera: sorry.
2018-01-19T21:57:51Z flip214: good night, everyone!
2018-01-19T21:57:57Z pjb: flip214: the parsec comes from the visual angle!
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2018-01-19T21:59:04Z jasom just realized this is #lisp and not #lispcafe
2018-01-19T21:59:05Z flip214: pjb: yeah, exactly. but the triangle is defined via the angle 1" and the opposite length of 1 AE.
2018-01-19T21:59:15Z flip214: no speeds involved.
2018-01-19T21:59:15Z aeth: hopefully emaczen's client has name highlighting
2018-01-19T21:59:30Z flip214: well, I'll stop now anyway.
2018-01-19T21:59:50Z flip214: but I'll read the scrollback, perhaps there's more to read....
2018-01-19T21:59:50Z pjb: Anyways, you can use space to store cached values.
2018-01-19T22:00:17Z pjb: For example, sending a modulated laser beam thru space to a reflector.  So when you need an old value, you can read it back frmo the beam.
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2018-01-19T22:00:22Z pjb: Or if you have RAM, use RAM.
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2018-01-19T22:00:30Z pjb: Basic optimization techniques…
2018-01-19T22:00:40Z aeth: The #1 performance improvement I can normally get is by preallocating before loops rather than heavily consing during the loops.
2018-01-19T22:00:56Z rjmacready: is there any common lisp implemented in a common lisp based on the special forms alone? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
2018-01-19T22:01:02Z aeth: e.g. allocating 4 vectors that are constantly overwritten each iteration rather than allocating 4 new vectors each iteration
2018-01-19T22:01:22Z jasom: rjmacready: that's not possible; how do you implement "print" only in terms of special forms?
2018-01-19T22:01:33Z pjb: rjmacready: not really.  First special operators are not all the primitives of a CL system.  Some functions are primitive too!
2018-01-19T22:01:37Z jasom: rjmacready: or "open" for that matter
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2018-01-19T22:01:41Z pjb: rjmacready: sicl uses the whole CL to implement CL.
2018-01-19T22:02:02Z jasom: sbcl implements everything but the runtime in CL
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2018-01-19T22:02:08Z pjb: rjmacready: otherwise you may have a look at cl-stepper, which redefines special operators as macros to implement a stepper.
2018-01-19T22:02:28Z rjmacready: ah i see, fair enough :)
2018-01-19T22:02:31Z rjmacready: thanks for the answers
2018-01-19T22:02:33Z jasom: "Sanely-Bootstrappable Common Lisp"
2018-01-19T22:02:51Z pjb: Sanely Initialized Common Lisp = SICL ;-)
2018-01-19T22:03:01Z pjb: or Sanely Implemented Common Lisp = SICL.
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2018-01-19T22:03:18Z rjmacready: jasom: yeah i was looking at that and wondered there was some special form only based implementation
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2018-01-19T22:03:39Z rjmacready: SICL = SICL isnt common lisp :v (sorry)
2018-01-19T22:03:49Z pjb: not yet.
2018-01-19T22:04:02Z rjmacready: SICLY then? :v
2018-01-19T22:04:19Z aeth: rjmacready: You can probably implement CL without CLOS and without most of loop. Some of loop really is just too convenient for macros, especially collect but sometimes also append. (Most of loop has alternatives, those don't really.)
2018-01-19T22:04:29Z aeth: But if you avoid CLOS, you'll find a lot of things pretty hard to do, too.
2018-01-19T22:04:36Z aeth: Structs don't get you all of the way there.
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2018-01-19T22:04:59Z jasom: implementing collect and append is fairly easy, you just need to keep track of your tail pointer
2018-01-19T22:05:04Z aeth: So I just picked two of the easiest complicated parts of the language to remove, and then said you can't remove them. :-p
2018-01-19T22:05:27Z rjmacready: i see
2018-01-19T22:05:42Z jasom: Real Programmers(tm) use tagbody
2018-01-19T22:06:25Z rjmacready: :)
2018-01-19T22:06:55Z emaczen: I just shaved 10 seconds by replacing remove-if-not with a loop...
2018-01-19T22:06:59Z aeth: jasom: I guess my point is that most of the common useful parts of loop have direct equivalents in dofoo or higher order functions, but not collect and append, you'd essentially have to write something lower-level in do
2018-01-19T22:07:09Z rjmacready: had this silly idea of plugging an empty executable as inferior lisp to slime and checking what would arrive there
2018-01-19T22:07:20Z emaczen: I really do need to go back and look through my code, usually I am not too concerned about speed
2018-01-19T22:07:21Z pjb: Also, the usefulness of most of special operators to implement a language is rather dubious. eg. THE is useless.
2018-01-19T22:07:44Z aeth: the is the most useful!
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2018-01-19T22:08:13Z Bike: there's also a question of how you're like, implementing this. sbcl and sicl and stuff work on a principle of having an existing lisp just dump compiled files, so it's not like you're bootstrapping up from some limited set of operators
2018-01-19T22:08:23Z Bike: the runtime just needs some stuff like being able to call compiled functions
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2018-01-19T22:08:32Z pjb: It can be implemented conformingly as (defmacro the (type expression) (declare (ignore type)) expression)
2018-01-19T22:08:39Z aeth: pjb: Determine the return type of a function in a compilation unit, and be as specific as possible. Wrap calls to it within that compilation unit with a the (assuming sbcl semantics, which type-checks and uses truly-the for real assumptions)
2018-01-19T22:08:59Z aeth: Very useful in compilation
2018-01-19T22:09:06Z aeth: I'm not sure if SBCL does this or does something that's logically equivalent to this
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2018-01-19T22:11:36Z aeth: (I actually suspect SBCL binaries could be made much more efficient if everything's moved into one compilation unit as the final compilation process, to keep literally all of the program's type information and really put all that inference to work)
2018-01-19T22:11:49Z aeth: (You'd probably be able to remove most manual type declarations, too.)
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2018-01-19T22:12:19Z aeth: (I mean, Lisp app binaries using SBCL, not binaries of SBCL)
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2018-01-19T22:16:18Z aeth: Bike: I suspect the main use for a very restricted Lisp to implement Lisp would be to build something that's useful for building a richer, probably better written Lisp.
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2018-01-19T22:19:29Z Bike: but that's a weird way to write things
2018-01-19T22:19:44Z Bike: you can have your better lisp, and use it to write a lisp, and then bam
2018-01-19T22:20:11Z aeth: Can you use SBCL to cross-compile SBCL to other architectures? e.g. new architectures?
2018-01-19T22:20:17Z Bike: pretty sure, yeah
2018-01-19T22:20:25Z Bike: the runtime you might have to translate
2018-01-19T22:20:40Z aeth: If that's the case, then there's not much of a point to think about bootstrapping.
2018-01-19T22:21:01Z pjb: The only usefulness in a restricted lisp, would be either you time travel to 1958, or you get lost light years from Earth without a CL implementation.
2018-01-19T22:21:40Z aeth: I *guess* a restricted Lisp might be more secure, but then you'd probably just want to write a VM and use bytecode, not a subset of Lisp.
2018-01-19T22:21:41Z pjb: In all other cases, you can get access to a CL implementation faster, and use it to implement faster and easier your new CL.
2018-01-19T22:21:49Z pjb: This is what beach does with SICL.
2018-01-19T22:22:07Z pjb: Be smart, don't write programs with your hands tied in the back.
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2018-01-19T22:28:46Z aeth: Was CL ever implemented from scratch or were the early CLs built from pre-CL Lisps?
2018-01-19T22:29:00Z aeth: I've skimmed through the Lisp Machine Manuals and they're very similar to the HyperSpec
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2018-01-19T22:31:02Z Shinmera: I think ECL's history (stemming from KCL) started from scratch.
2018-01-19T22:31:19Z aeth: Here are the manuals, btw: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
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2018-01-19T22:31:41Z Bike: cmucl was built from, what, spice? which was either pre-CL or derived from a pre-CL
2018-01-19T22:31:54Z Shinmera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Common_Lisp "KCL is notable in that it was implemented from scratch, outside of the standard committee, solely on the basis of the specification. It was one of the first Common Lisp implementations ever, and exposed a number of holes and mistakes in the specification that had gone unnoticed."
2018-01-19T22:31:57Z Bike: clisp might have been from scratch
2018-01-19T22:33:18Z aeth: Two things I wouldn't want to implement from scratch are loop and CLOS.
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2018-01-19T22:33:43Z Bike: clos isn't honestly that bad
2018-01-19T22:34:00Z aeth: The performance is what I'd worry about.
2018-01-19T22:34:13Z Bike: oh, you want it to be _fast_? now that's just picky
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2018-01-19T22:34:33Z Shinmera: I wouldn't want to implement anything to be truly fast :^)
2018-01-19T22:34:48Z Bike: well, beach's method has proven to be pretty performant and is conceptually pretty simple, so you could do that.
2018-01-19T22:35:01Z Bike: i've looked at PCL a lot and still have no idea what's going on there, though
2018-01-19T22:35:04Z aeth: Bike: Can beach's method be ported to other implementations, e.g. SBCL?
2018-01-19T22:35:10Z aeth: PCL is apparently garbage
2018-01-19T22:35:13Z Shinmera: aeth: scymtym already did some work to do that
2018-01-19T22:35:21Z Bike: PCL is what SBCL has, i don't think it's garbage
2018-01-19T22:35:26Z aeth: Well, in performance.
2018-01-19T22:35:40Z Bike: i don't think it's garbage in performance, sbcl does dispatch pretty quick
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2018-01-19T22:36:05Z aeth: SBCL's CLOS is apparently slower than other CLOSes, though
2018-01-19T22:36:11Z aeth: I haven't personally benchmarked it, though
2018-01-19T22:36:13Z Bike: is it?
2018-01-19T22:36:33Z White_Flame: the entire "CLOS" or just multimethod dispatch in particular?
2018-01-19T22:36:38Z aeth: Also, SBCL's CLOS is missing some useful features
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2018-01-19T22:36:44Z aeth: CCL's CLOS handles :type
2018-01-19T22:36:46Z Bike: generic function dispatch is what we mean, yes
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2018-01-19T22:37:21Z aeth: White_Flame: I'd assume that the main thing that would matter for the runtime performance of CLOS is dispatch
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2018-01-19T22:38:13Z Bike: the rest of clos is basically just data structures, and some functions you ahve to call sometimes
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2018-01-19T22:39:02Z White_Flame: well, there's also instantiation & registration, updating classes, etc, that can have their own performance impact
2018-01-19T22:39:29Z aeth: If CLOS generics were as performant when the class is known as the generic functions for arithmetics and sequences are when the types are known, that would completely change how people write fast CL. Although type-dispatch would still be necessary for numbers and sequences a lot of the time.
2018-01-19T22:39:34Z aeth: I'm not sure if that's possible, though.
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2018-01-19T22:39:45Z White_Flame: the real big beneficial change would be true JIT
2018-01-19T22:39:56Z White_Flame: fast pathing the common outcomes
2018-01-19T22:40:07Z aeth: Would it be possible to just JIT the dispatch in an otherwise AOT implementation? JIT has big drawbacks, too.
2018-01-19T22:40:22Z White_Flame: that's what some implementations do, but not inline
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2018-01-19T22:40:40Z White_Flame: they call a dispatch function, but the dispatch function can be re-compiled
2018-01-19T22:40:47Z White_Flame: using normal means
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2018-01-19T22:41:24Z White_Flame: and so because it's a single centralized dispatch function, it can't take advantage of call-site knowledge
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2018-01-19T22:42:05Z aeth: I wonder how hard it would be to unify type dispatch (e.g. specialization-store) and class dispatch. If that's even possible.
2018-01-19T22:42:47Z aeth: What I like about what specialization-store does with types is... it produces the exact same thing that I'd produce by hand. Except automatically.
2018-01-19T22:42:47Z Bike: they're the same concept, it's just that clos allows things to be redefined, inhibiting static analysis
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2018-01-19T22:43:31Z aeth: The best high-performance abstractions produce the same things you'd do manually.
2018-01-19T22:43:53Z White_Flame: yeah, it'd be nice if you could say "bake these things in" at some point, and "unbake back to dynamic, I want to change things"
2018-01-19T22:44:24Z Shinmera: Even just being able to bake irreversibly would be a win for deployments
2018-01-19T22:44:28Z Bike: it would, but unbaking would require recompiling all call sites in general, which is kind of annoying
2018-01-19T22:44:41Z White_Flame: Shinmera: yep
2018-01-19T22:44:45Z Bike: baking itself shouldn't be that hard
2018-01-19T22:44:48Z aeth: White_Flame: There are, I think, essentially three levels of control. Inline, inline function call (remove the generic dispatch, keep the function), and runtime dispatch. Specialization-store handles all three of these for type-based dispatch.
2018-01-19T22:44:54Z Bike: i should probably do that, actually, i k now all the bullshit in clos well enough by now
2018-01-19T22:45:11Z Shinmera: Bike: I smell another paper :)
2018-01-19T22:45:55Z aeth: Although I'm not sure if specialization-store keeps the return type information when there's an inline function call, which would be useful. That information is lost in SBCL if it's outside of the compilation unit (normally the file)
2018-01-19T22:45:59Z Bike: there might be combinatorial problems, hm
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2018-01-19T22:46:14Z Bike: i will consider this later, i think
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2018-01-19T22:51:37Z aeth: It looks like speicalization-store does keep the return type information when doing a named specialization. (defspecialization (foo :name %foo/single-float) ((x single-float) (y single-float)) single-float (+ x y)) (defun foobar () (+ 1f0 (foo 2f0 3f0))) ; does not have a generic + in SBCL
2018-01-19T22:51:47Z aeth: *specialization-store
2018-01-19T22:52:04Z aeth: pillton really thought of everything.
2018-01-19T22:52:32Z aeth: I'd love to see something just as mature for optimizing CLOS, especially if it was compatible.
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2018-01-19T22:55:27Z aeth: One thing that I'm considering doing soon is using structs and CLOS to define custom data structures. In particular, I think typed lists expressed as structs would be very useful, especially for what I'm doing. At the moment, if something's best expressed as a linked list, I have to type check multiple times where a typed data structure would just type check the elements once, when making the list, and then I'd just type check the list itse
2018-01-19T22:55:49Z aeth: the list itself and assume the types of the elements.
2018-01-19T22:56:53Z aeth: So what I'm considering writing is: a cons cell represented as a struct with a car and a cdr, where the car is some type and the cdr is either null or another of the new type of cons cell
2018-01-19T22:57:25Z aeth: This is not entirely portable, but where it isn't portable I can add manual type-checking with #+foo for the implementations that don't check on e.g. creation or access
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2018-01-19T23:10:27Z scymtym: pkhuong made (in 2007 no less) a prototype for "sealed" generic functions which would inline dispatch and/or methods and derive call site-specific return types depending on availability of argument type information and declarations
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2018-01-19T23:11:27Z aeth: 2007? nice
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2018-01-19T23:13:19Z aeth: I'm only aware of https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/ for writing +-style and map-style type-generic functions and https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/ for inlining CLOS dispatch, although I haven't tried the latter, and wouldn't be able to use it in my MIT-licensed projects because it's LLGPL, which would complicate using my projects.
2018-01-19T23:13:46Z aeth: I'm sure there are other projects, but they never get mentioned here.
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2018-01-19T23:22:29Z jasom: hmm, mop should give me enough information to automate what I currently do when GF is too high
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2018-01-19T23:22:38Z jasom: (just make a non-GF that is an etypecase)
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2018-01-19T23:27:58Z aeth: Hmm... How does CLOS handle a generic with two methods: parent-class child-class and child-class parent-class when called with child-class child-class?
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2018-01-19T23:29:42Z aeth: Looks like it calls the child parent one, which makes sense. The most specific for the first argument.
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2018-01-19T23:30:26Z jasom: yup
2018-01-19T23:33:25Z jasom: clhs 7.6.6.2
2018-01-19T23:33:25Z specbot: Standard Method Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
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2018-01-19T23:33:53Z aeth: Where do people tend to use methods in their code? I generally only use them when using someone's CLOS-based API that expects inheritance and methods. For my own code, things are usually very specific and functions make the most sense.
2018-01-19T23:34:04Z _death: you can also specify a different argument-precedence-order
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2018-01-19T23:35:21Z jasom: aeth: they are often used any time dispatching based on classes or symbols is wanted; also :around can be useful in some cases even when there is only a single class involved.
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2018-01-19T23:35:49Z jasom: aeth: consider if you wanted something similar to print-object; generic functions are the most obvious solution
2018-01-19T23:36:46Z aeth: I normally use objects (CLOS and struct objects) just to store data to prevent things like e.g. a function call with 14 arguments (this has happened to me before)
2018-01-19T23:37:05Z jasom: LIL is an experiment in making containers where eql specializers are very important
2018-01-19T23:37:32Z aeth: I normally decide between CLOS and structs by using structs (or arrays!) for things that are simple, efficient, and typed and CLOS for the rest.
2018-01-19T23:37:38Z Bike: to "bake" a gf you might have to account for the possibility of new classes that inherit from multiple specializers. kind of a combinatorial explosion. however, the set of possible effective methods is probably quite limited in most cases
2018-01-19T23:37:38Z jasom: aeth: 1 is an object of class number...
2018-01-19T23:37:47Z jasom: "foo" is an object of class string
2018-01-19T23:37:49Z aeth: jasom: I mean, custom objects
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2018-01-19T23:38:08Z aeth: as in defclass or defstruct or some wrapper over make-array
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2018-01-19T23:38:12Z Bike: the call history suddenly seems like the most genius part of fastgf
2018-01-19T23:38:59Z jasom: I use CLOS and structs all the time; I often don't want the fancy stuff that objects give me, and I can still specialize on the class of the struct
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2018-01-19T23:39:20Z jasom: should have read "CLOS and structs *together*"
2018-01-19T23:39:25Z aeth: yeah
2018-01-19T23:39:51Z aeth: A struct is great for something like a queue (which in turn is just a specialized array with a handful of extra things, thrown in a struct).
2018-01-19T23:40:00Z aeth: A CLOS object is great for something more complicated that holds that queue
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2018-01-19T23:41:16Z Bike: you could say: "a standard-class"
2018-01-19T23:41:21Z jasom: a queue is a specilized list with a handful of extra things :P
2018-01-19T23:41:30Z aeth: Bike: yeah, that's the correct term, I'm just not sure if it would confuse people or not
2018-01-19T23:41:40Z jasom: non-system-class?
2018-01-19T23:42:01Z aeth: jasom: Well, you can implement a queue as a list or an array. Arrays seem to win for what I tend to do.
2018-01-19T23:42:21Z aeth: Since CL doesn't have typed lists built in, arrays often win for things where lists *should* win inutitively!
2018-01-19T23:42:27Z Bike: multiple inheritance, redefinition semantics, and slot-value/boundp/etc are the only differences between standard-class and structure-class, i think
2018-01-19T23:42:54Z jasom: Bike: also CLOS defines less, so if you didn't want some accessors predefined...
2018-01-19T23:43:18Z aeth: Bike: One thing I'd love to see is structures without any inheritance at all. I'm not sure if this can be added as an extension to the language. This would, afaik, be all that's necessary to support arrays-of-structs.
2018-01-19T23:43:19Z Bike: eh, that's nearly syntax
2018-01-19T23:43:36Z Bike: that is not all that would be necessary lol
2018-01-19T23:43:43Z aeth: What else is needed?
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2018-01-19T23:44:01Z jasom: does :include enforce that the newly created class is a subtype of the included class?
2018-01-19T23:44:03Z Bike: a change to equality semantics and a lot of implementation upgrades
2018-01-19T23:44:08Z Bike: jasom: pretty sure
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2018-01-19T23:44:32Z Bike: additionally, inheritance doesn't really kill arrays of structs, exactly
2018-01-19T23:44:32Z aeth: Bike: one thing I've found out about the Internet is that the best way to get the correct answer is to state the wrong answer and be corrected. :-p
2018-01-19T23:44:52Z Bike: in the same way ub8 is a subtype of ub16, but they can have distinct upgraded array types
2018-01-19T23:45:25Z jasom: "it becomes a subtype of the included structure."  <-- good to know; the spec doesn't always do what I want, but does here.
2018-01-19T23:46:04Z aeth: Bike: what's wrong with the equality semantics?
2018-01-19T23:46:08Z jasom: so structs do have full-featured single inheritance
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2018-01-19T23:46:47Z jasom: equalp descends into structures but not classes
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2018-01-19T23:46:54Z Bike: not that
2018-01-19T23:47:04Z Bike: aeth: you expect (progn (setf (aref array ...) x) (eq (aref array ...) x)) to be T
2018-01-19T23:47:18Z _death: equalp is just arbitrary and shouldn't affect decisions ;)
2018-01-19T23:47:29Z Bike: if you want to actually pack the structure into the array, you lose that
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2018-01-19T23:48:55Z jasom: An actually useful equal would be like equalp, but one uses eql to compare characters.  Perhaps uses a GF for comparing other objects as well.
2018-01-19T23:49:54Z aeth: And now Lisp will get its === that so many languages wind up having :-p
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2018-01-19T23:50:17Z aeth: bonus points if the improved equalp is called equal?
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2018-01-19T23:50:42Z jasom: we can call it == it's not taken yet :)
2018-01-19T23:51:24Z _death: you can steal Baker's name and call it "egal"
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2018-01-19T23:52:09Z jasom: simila?
2018-01-19T23:53:01Z aeth: Someone should make a list of all of the extensions (current and not yet implemented) that modern CL needs to be maximally efficient. It would probably be most useful if they're listed as the portability libraries, like https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2018-01-19T23:53:46Z aeth: just a simple table "portability library over extension" and "implementation" with "Yes"/"No"/"Partial"/"Unknown" as values in the cells
2018-01-19T23:54:07Z aeth: The #1 library on the list would probably be bordeaux-threads, actually
2018-01-19T23:54:31Z Bike: billing threads as an efficiency thing seems a little, inspired
2018-01-19T23:54:54Z aeth: well, it makes certain algorithms more efficient
2018-01-19T23:54:57Z Bike: introspect environment isn't either, it's just a bit helpful for some efficiency things
2018-01-19T23:55:34Z aeth: Bike: introspect-environment is the thing needed by some libraries that make things efficient, so it would go on the list rather than (or in addition to?) those libraries
2018-01-19T23:56:08Z Bike: i'm just saying i've seen more coherent theming at proms is all
2018-01-19T23:56:11Z aeth: (I suppose those libraries could go on the list too, with "Partial" if they have to work around the lack of introspect-environment)
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2018-01-19T23:57:37Z aeth: Bike: well, it could just be language extensions in general
2018-01-19T23:58:16Z aeth: although thanks to macros and turing completeness, just about anything can be implemented in just about any CL, just not necessarily efficiently, afaik.
2018-01-19T23:58:22Z Bike: that's what CDRs are, it's just that nobody cares
2018-01-19T23:59:07Z aeth: Bike: I think listing portability libraries over language extensions that are actually in use is considerably more useful than proposing language extensions to implementations.
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2018-01-20T00:13:16Z _death: I wonder if it makes sense to want finalize to take a size hint
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2018-01-20T00:14:04Z AeroNotix: aeth: I've brought this up in here once or twice before. Biggest consensus is that there's no need to make further language/standard changes as everything realistically can be plonked in a library
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2018-01-20T00:16:44Z aeth: AeroNotix: Some libraries require implementation support for an efficient implementation (or any implementation at all), though.
2018-01-20T00:17:15Z AeroNotix: aeth: sure but most interesting and widely applicable features don't
2018-01-20T00:17:21Z AeroNotix: threads, for example.
2018-01-20T00:17:58Z aeth: AeroNotix: well, I'd say unicode characters/strings are an interesting and widely applicable feature that needs implementation support
2018-01-20T00:18:10Z AeroNotix: ascii 4 lyfe
2018-01-20T00:18:53Z aeth: It's very important to support Unicode so that you can use Emoji. (You also can use Unicode for non-English languages!)
2018-01-20T00:18:53Z jasom: aeth: that reminds me, I need to portabilify the sb-unicode package; it is almost indep already and provides a lot of unicode features that are really useful.
2018-01-20T00:19:24Z aeth: jasom: Yes, please. I need that for cl-scheme
2018-01-20T00:19:32Z jasom: 💩
2018-01-20T00:19:39Z aeth: At the moment I only support Unicode in SBCL there
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2018-01-20T00:23:15Z aeth: There's also a very trivial portability library (possibly already written several times over) that could be useful for other things that languages implemented in CL could use, such as float-nan-p (and the ability to get NaN at all, for languages where you can write a literal NaN, such as modern Scheme... that's one place where I fail r7rs conformance tests)
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2018-01-20T00:44:24Z emaczen: aeth: Wait I can enable inline-generic-functions just by pushing it onto *features*?
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2018-01-20T00:48:58Z aeth: I think it also requires the library.
2018-01-20T00:49:32Z emaczen: aeth: I'm amazed
2018-01-20T00:49:34Z aeth: And unfortunately the library is LLGPL, which could complicate building standalone binaries because then you'd be entering unknown legal territory.
2018-01-20T00:50:30Z emaczen: What is the point of the library if we can't even freely use it then?
2018-01-20T00:52:30Z aeth: The LLGPL is a preamble to the LGPL with Lisp-specific "clarifications" that may or may not be a good idea, but it effectively becomes a custom license that's neither FSF nor OSI approved. It would be clearer just to use LGPL, but that would essentially unambiguously forbid standalone all-in-one binaries, then, afaik.
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2018-01-20T00:54:43Z aeth: The older the library, the more likely it is to use the LLGPL, which imo is the worst thing to happen to the Lisp ecosystem. I am not a lawyer, but your lawyer might say do not use custom FOSS licenses. And, really, imo any situation where "talk to a lawyer" somehow becomes part of using a library is a bad thing, no matter what the lawyer winds up saying.
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2018-01-20T00:56:42Z aeth: The FSF's official position is "the LGPL works as intended with all known programming languages" https://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-java.html
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2018-01-20T00:57:28Z aeth: And the FSF definitely knows about Lisp. There are two GNU Common Lisps (CLISP, GCL) and at least three GNU Schemes (Guile, Kawa, MIT).
2018-01-20T00:57:46Z aeth: (And Emacs Lisp, of course)
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2018-01-20T01:01:22Z emaczen: I'm definitely going to have to ask about this again...
2018-01-20T01:01:35Z emaczen: I have some software I would like to release too
2018-01-20T01:02:26Z fdund: exit
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2018-01-20T01:04:00Z aeth: Imo, for libraries use a permissive license unless you only want (A)GPLed software to use it. For applications, choosing between copyleft and permissive is your choice, depending on what you want. Copyleft is most useful for large, nontrivial applications if you're concerned about a commerical fork (or, if you require copyright assignment, you can sell exceptions for commerical software and be the only permitted commerical fork... this is t
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2018-01-20T01:04:22Z aeth: this is the business model for some companies)
2018-01-20T01:05:22Z aeth: The GPL does not prevent freeloading commercial forks, though. e.g. Oracle Linux is a fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
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2018-01-20T01:08:42Z aeth: The LGPL (not the LLGPL please!) is another option for libraries, but until someone gets clarification from the FSF (I think they have an email for this sort of thing), afaik the best we have to go off of is the Java LGPL article, where it says that JAR-based distribution for libraries is okay under the LGPL. Thus, it looks like the LGPL could prevent distrubtion of Lisp apps that put everything in one binary.
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2018-01-20T01:09:30Z emaczen: Are there executables built with (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...) binaries?
2018-01-20T01:09:43Z emaczen: Are the*
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2018-01-20T01:10:28Z aeth: The only Lisp executables I'm aware of are the web browser written by jmercouris and some games produced by the #lispgames community.
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2018-01-20T01:11:08Z emaczen: aeth: What do you call the file that is produced with (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...)
2018-01-20T01:11:10Z aeth: I think most Lisp applications require a host CL.
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2018-01-20T01:11:30Z jasom wrote an implementation of redo in lisp that was a standalone executable
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2018-01-20T01:12:17Z jasom: it gets recursively invoked, so startup time was important
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2018-01-20T01:19:00Z aeth: emaczen: 'saved image'?
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2018-01-20T01:19:46Z jasom: emaczen: save-lisp-and-die makes an image; it's also an executable if :executable t is passed.
2018-01-20T01:20:09Z aeth: Okay, then, that makes it easy. 'saved image' and 'saved executable image'
2018-01-20T01:21:38Z jasom: there's a regex tutorial program that is a lisp executable
2018-01-20T01:22:13Z jasom: http://weitz.de/regex-coach/
2018-01-20T01:24:36Z jasom: http://www.inspiration.com/Inspiration <-- I think this was written in lisp as well
2018-01-20T01:25:28Z aeth: Afaik, an alternative would be to distribute SBCL to end users, like Sun did and Oracle does with Java.
2018-01-20T01:25:37Z aeth: Probably not worth doing.
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2018-01-20T01:34:48Z jasom: anyone know what sb-kernel:with-array-data does?
2018-01-20T01:35:15Z Bike: i think it gets at the underlying one dimensional array elements with no header
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2018-01-20T01:36:08Z Bike: the comment seems pretty clear, except for leaving "data vector" undefined
2018-01-20T01:38:03Z jasom: where is it defined? I don't have source mappings for my installed sbcl
2018-01-20T01:39:01Z Bike: 1331 of compiler/array-tran.lisp, though mine might be a little old.
2018-01-20T01:39:23Z Bike: what are you doing with it?
2018-01-20T01:39:46Z jasom: found it
2018-01-20T01:39:54Z jasom: Bike: trying to make code that uses it portable
2018-01-20T01:40:02Z Bike: oh, i see
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2018-01-20T01:41:12Z jasom: looks like I can use 0 and (length vector) if :check-fill-pointer is t
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2018-01-20T03:53:37Z pragmaticmonkey: Is there a lisp like language that isn't a global bucket of whackly named functions? Something with a lil better package and scopes?
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2018-01-20T04:00:08Z pragmaticmonkey: Is there a way to print a tree?
2018-01-20T04:00:11Z pragmaticmonkey: pretty print that is
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2018-01-20T04:58:30Z jmercouris: What are you guys working on right now? Anyone interested in sharing their lisp projects?
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2018-01-20T05:02:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-20T05:03:24Z beach: minion: Please tell jmercouris about SICL.
2018-01-20T05:03:25Z minion: jmercouris: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-01-20T05:03:32Z beach: minion: Please tell jmercouris about Cleavir.
2018-01-20T05:03:32Z minion: jmercouris: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2018-01-20T05:04:37Z jmercouris: beach: I'm more curious about how you trained minion
2018-01-20T05:04:44Z jmercouris: do you run minion?
2018-01-20T05:04:46Z aeth: That's a hard act to follow.
2018-01-20T05:04:56Z beach: minion: help
2018-01-20T05:04:56Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2018-01-20T05:05:00Z aeth: Not just the projects, but also the bot knowing the projects.
2018-01-20T05:05:06Z beach: minion: help adding terms
2018-01-20T05:05:06Z minion: To add a term, say something like ``minion: add "term" as: the definition''. I will remember the definition.
2018-01-20T05:05:08Z jmercouris: Yeah sure, but did you use an alias?
2018-01-20T05:05:18Z jmercouris: Ok so you just added a term
2018-01-20T05:05:40Z ahungry: This isn't Common Lisp, but it's in the lisp family and probably has some overlap with CL user's tooling (Emacs), new mode I just finished an mvp of: https://github.com/ahungry/redditor-mode
2018-01-20T05:06:15Z jmercouris: ahungry: That's amazing
2018-01-20T05:07:02Z jmercouris: beach: The difference between cleavir and sicl isn't exactly so "clear cut" to me
2018-01-20T05:07:13Z jmercouris: What is a "compilation framework"?
2018-01-20T05:07:22Z jmercouris: I thought you were bootstrapping off SBCL
2018-01-20T05:07:26Z jmercouris: so where does cleavir come in?
2018-01-20T05:08:01Z jmercouris: SBCL --> Loads Sicl --> Cleavir Compiles Sicl Code ?
2018-01-20T05:08:22Z beach: jmercouris: SICL is a complete implementation of Common Lisp.
2018-01-20T05:08:22Z beach: jmercouris: Cleavir is a compiler that can be used by any implementation that so wishes.
2018-01-20T05:08:38Z beach: So SICL uses Cleavir.
2018-01-20T05:09:09Z jmercouris: So Cleavir implements a way to compile that isn't tied to a vendor's extensions
2018-01-20T05:09:10Z jmercouris: yeah?
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2018-01-20T05:10:23Z jmercouris: Without using vendor specific extensions, are there enough functions and accessors to persist a lisp image?
2018-01-20T05:10:33Z beach: Most Common Lisp compilers could be characterized like that.  The specificity of Cleavir is that it can be customized to the specific representations and data structures of any Common Lisp implementation.
2018-01-20T05:10:56Z jmercouris: so Cleavir has to be "ported" to an implementation?
2018-01-20T05:11:15Z jmercouris: it doesn't just use the functions, data types, and accessors defined in the lisp standard
2018-01-20T05:11:24Z beach: Customized.  By the use of methods and subclasses.  Just like any other CLOS-based software.
2018-01-20T05:11:33Z jmercouris: Okay, so using entirely standard features
2018-01-20T05:11:53Z beach: I think you are missing the point... (sorry)...
2018-01-20T05:12:09Z beach: Most compilers for Common Lisp are written with a single implementation in mind.
2018-01-20T05:12:10Z jmercouris: If I am missing the point, please explain
2018-01-20T05:12:23Z beach: So the specific implementation details are spread all over the code.
2018-01-20T05:12:26Z jmercouris: Okay, so far so good
2018-01-20T05:13:10Z beach: Cleavir turns those details into generic functions and classes that can be altered by the implementation, using subclassing and methods.
2018-01-20T05:13:24Z jmercouris: Okay so yeah, it has to be ported
2018-01-20T05:13:31Z jmercouris: you are effectively making an API for compilation
2018-01-20T05:13:31Z beach: Customized.
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2018-01-20T05:13:39Z beach: Yes, sort of.
2018-01-20T05:13:48Z jmercouris: ported, customized, I think we're on the same page :)
2018-01-20T05:14:01Z jmercouris: Do you plan on extending this to produce standalone binaries?
2018-01-20T05:14:24Z jmercouris: E.g. bundling the kernel and image together in an "executable" bundle?
2018-01-20T05:14:29Z beach: That would be an implementation-specific decision and nothing for Cleavir.
2018-01-20T05:14:55Z jmercouris: I think that would be THE killer feature to convince an implementation to port Cleavir
2018-01-20T05:15:07Z jmercouris: If you extended the spec in this way
2018-01-20T05:15:18Z beach: For SICL, the plan is to stick most of the system in a shared library, so that small executables can be produced for those who are obsessed about that.
2018-01-20T05:15:24Z jmercouris: I've obviously thought way less about this than you, but that's just an outsider perspective
2018-01-20T05:16:14Z beach: SBCL can already produce "standalone" binaries.
2018-01-20T05:16:26Z jmercouris: Yeah, but many other implementations cannot
2018-01-20T05:16:28Z jmercouris: at least not easily
2018-01-20T05:16:32Z jmercouris: it's usually a huge pain
2018-01-20T05:16:56Z beach: Either way, that feature is related to the implementation, so Cleavir can't do anything about it.
2018-01-20T05:17:20Z jmercouris: You could make a third tool, and call it Compilr
2018-01-20T05:17:24Z jmercouris: or Bundlr
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2018-01-20T05:17:49Z beach: A thing like that would be VERY implementation specific.  I see no way to make it generic.
2018-01-20T05:17:51Z jmercouris: I guess your goals are more research oriented than anything, so I imagine it doesn't really interst you
2018-01-20T05:18:27Z jmercouris: It doesn't have to be generic, it could just be a tool to simplify the process
2018-01-20T05:18:31Z beach: I have no interest in digging into the details of every free Common Lisp implementation if that is what you mean.
2018-01-20T05:18:44Z beach: But I do have a practical system in mind.
2018-01-20T05:18:47Z jmercouris: again, a standard "way" of bundling for the end user, and then handling the implementation specific details
2018-01-20T05:18:56Z jmercouris: an abstraction of sorts
2018-01-20T05:19:38Z beach: I have absolutely no idea how to even think about creating such a thing, other than a generic function CREATE-BINARY that each implementation would have to define a method on.
2018-01-20T05:19:48Z jmercouris: yeah, that's it exactly
2018-01-20T05:20:19Z jmercouris: you would define those methods like +sbcl... etc, and then a user can just say (create-binary :with-name "binary-name" ...)
2018-01-20T05:20:29Z jmercouris: it would just do those operations for the user
2018-01-20T05:20:32Z jmercouris: would be really useful I think
2018-01-20T05:20:52Z beach: I have around 100 or so projects that I consider much more useful.
2018-01-20T05:21:05Z jmercouris: what's 101 :P
2018-01-20T05:21:43Z beach: The top 5 will last my remaining lifetime, so I don't often look further down the list.
2018-01-20T05:22:15Z jmercouris: oh well
2018-01-20T05:22:18Z jmercouris: so ist das leben
2018-01-20T05:23:13Z beach: Or in the words of my brother-in-law: "Life's a bitch, and then you die."
2018-01-20T05:23:57Z jmercouris: Those are stolen words, and incorrect
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2018-01-20T05:24:05Z jmercouris: Life is what you make of it
2018-01-20T05:24:06Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-01-20T05:24:32Z jmercouris: Nothing more, nothing less
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2018-01-20T05:31:27Z beach: The other thing about Cleavir is that it uses the full Common Lisp language in order for the code to be maintainable and modular.  Whereas for instance the SBCL compiler does not use generic functions, because it is needed when CLOS is not available.  This fact makes the SBCL compiler much harder to maintain.
2018-01-20T05:32:18Z beach: Same thing with SICL, it uses the full Common Lisp language to implement most of its features.  So for instance SICL LOOP uses generic functions and classes in its expansion code.
2018-01-20T05:36:05Z jmercouris: beach: I see, so it has an advantage in the way that it is bootstrapped
2018-01-20T05:36:07Z jmercouris: yes?
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2018-01-20T05:36:30Z beach: It will have.  I am making very slow progress on the bootstrapping phase.
2018-01-20T05:36:43Z beach: But the main advantage is in maintainability.
2018-01-20T05:36:48Z jmercouris: have you thought about paying developers to work on it?
2018-01-20T05:37:09Z beach: I have, yes.
2018-01-20T05:37:17Z jmercouris: and what did you conclude?
2018-01-20T05:38:11Z beach: There are very few people that have the required knowledge and that are also available for work.  But when I find one, I'll consider this option.
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2018-01-20T05:39:07Z jmercouris: People can be trained
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2018-01-20T05:39:23Z jmercouris: And when you train one, they can train another, and then bam, exponential knowledge share
2018-01-20T05:39:45Z jmercouris: sure, there are losses the further from the source, but if everything is well documented, mistakes can be corrected
2018-01-20T05:40:22Z jmercouris: beach: rme is looking for a job, I would say he is a suitable candidate
2018-01-20T05:40:32Z jmercouris: I wouldn't know, but you could interview him if he wishes it
2018-01-20T05:40:38Z jmercouris: and you wish it as well of course
2018-01-20T05:41:02Z beach: I can't afford to pay someone for full-time work.  And I certainly can't afford the typical fees in the US or western EU.
2018-01-20T05:41:15Z jmercouris: You can't afford them *now*
2018-01-20T05:41:22Z beach: ?
2018-01-20T05:41:33Z jmercouris: but if you made a business case for your work, you could secure a grant, or investment money
2018-01-20T05:41:56Z beach: Yeah, that won't happen.
2018-01-20T05:42:02Z jmercouris: it is my belief that you can amplify your efforts through teams of people
2018-01-20T05:42:10Z jmercouris: You know nothing about business, but you are so confident
2018-01-20T05:42:12Z beach: Definitely.
2018-01-20T05:42:26Z beach: It won't happen because I am not going to try.
2018-01-20T05:42:30Z jmercouris: I'll give you this, you are possibly the best Lisp coder in existence right now, but I don't think you know anything about business
2018-01-20T05:42:45Z jmercouris: Why won't you try? are you afraid of failure?
2018-01-20T05:43:01Z beach: I know some.  I have had 2 US companies and 1 French company in the past.
2018-01-20T05:43:01Z jmercouris: If you care about the completion of your project, you'd give it a really good hard think
2018-01-20T05:43:36Z jmercouris: Forming 3 organizations is not a measure of business knowledge
2018-01-20T05:43:54Z jmercouris: I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything
2018-01-20T05:43:56Z beach: One thing I don't like is when people put words in my mouth.  I don't care about the completion of my project enough to manage a business.
2018-01-20T05:44:18Z jmercouris: beach: You don't care about the completion of your project that you work on every day?
2018-01-20T05:44:22Z jmercouris: Ah, this is surprising to me
2018-01-20T05:44:28Z beach: See?
2018-01-20T05:44:42Z jmercouris: Why work on something if you don't care about it's completion?
2018-01-20T05:44:45Z jmercouris: its*
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2018-01-20T05:45:10Z jmercouris: Furthermore, if you don't care about completion, why would you have thought about paying developers?
2018-01-20T05:45:19Z jmercouris: I put no words in your mouth, I just add 1+1 to make 2
2018-01-20T05:45:27Z beach: jmercouris: I am a researcher.  I get partial results as my papers show.  Clasp has already implemented fast generic function dispatch and it uses Cleavir.  That's good enough for me.
2018-01-20T05:45:42Z beach: It may use first-class global environments in the future.
2018-01-20T05:45:51Z beach: All those things are my research results.
2018-01-20T05:46:19Z jmercouris: This is admirable, but it is also not a rebuttal to what I said
2018-01-20T05:47:06Z jmercouris: I don't mean to upset or anything, if I am bothering you, tell me and I will stop, I just enjoy controversial topics
2018-01-20T05:47:18Z jmercouris: to see if I can learn something, or understand how you think, so I say provocative things
2018-01-20T05:47:39Z jmercouris: it's a bad habit on my part, but I am just too curious about others
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2018-01-20T05:47:44Z beach: Like water off a duck's back.
2018-01-20T05:47:50Z jmercouris: Ok, good :)
2018-01-20T05:48:23Z beach: I would like to see my numerous projects finished, of course.  But that is not my highest priority, and if the cost of getting there is too high, then it just won't happen.
2018-01-20T05:48:51Z beach: Part of the reason it is not high priority is that very few people care about my projects anyway.
2018-01-20T05:49:08Z jmercouris: So if more people cared about them, would you care more about them?
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2018-01-20T05:49:16Z beach: Possibly.
2018-01-20T05:49:26Z jmercouris: Do you care about humanity as a whole?
2018-01-20T05:49:36Z jmercouris: The so called "betterment" of the human race?
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2018-01-20T05:52:32Z beach: Sure, and I do my part, not only for computing, but also for the environment, for the economy, etc.  But I am quite pessimistic about the future.  But that's off topic.
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2018-01-20T05:53:09Z jmercouris: So, if I understand, you think the impact of your projects is not significant enough based on a proxy measure of overall interest?
2018-01-20T05:53:38Z jmercouris: And since this is not inline with your goal of bettering the world, why invest oneself fully into it?
2018-01-20T05:54:17Z beach: As long as the ELS referees accept my papers, I feel my salary is justified.
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2018-01-20T05:55:10Z jmercouris: So you are satisfied with the amount of positive impact you currently produce, and therefore there is no need to necessarily complete your projects?
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2018-01-20T05:55:36Z beach: Sounds about right.
2018-01-20T05:55:51Z jmercouris: That sounds like a key to happiness
2018-01-20T05:56:02Z jmercouris: Others chase and chase unattainable goals, but being satisfied, that is tricky
2018-01-20T05:56:03Z beach: My current strategy is to extract some "modules" from SICL and Cleavir (and other projects) to independent repositories, and to write tests and documentation for them.
2018-01-20T05:56:18Z jmercouris: After all, you are only one man
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2018-01-20T05:57:43Z jmercouris: I feel one step closer to understanding you, thanks for sharing
2018-01-20T05:57:48Z beach: Sure.
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2018-01-20T06:11:03Z stylewarning: beach, I might be down to (co?)sponsor a student to help implement some of your research
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2018-01-20T06:11:41Z stylewarning: beach, currently doing that with a student doing PLT. (:
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2018-01-20T06:23:46Z beach: stylewarning: Oh, great!
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2018-01-20T07:47:01Z aeth: beach: Is there any chance that your fast CLOS will one day replace PCL in implementations like SBCL? (I assume that you either already beat its performance or will eventually.) I'm not sure anyone on the planet knows more about CLOS than you.
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2018-01-20T07:51:01Z phoe: aeth: ask scymtym for some preliminary tests he did on fast GF dispatch.
2018-01-20T07:51:09Z phoe: (AFAIR it was him)
2018-01-20T07:52:18Z aeth: Replacing the current dispatch system in SBCL with a faster one would bring an immediate improvement to so many people, e.g. gray streams.
2018-01-20T07:52:24Z aeth: Gray streams are everywhere.
2018-01-20T07:54:28Z aeth: And a faster CLOS in general would change the architecture of so many things, probably.
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2018-01-20T07:57:05Z aeth: phoe: well, I search "fast generic function dispatch" and the first result I get is http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2018-01-20T08:01:28Z phoe: aeth: he talked about it on #lisp methinks some time ago, and showed some preliminary benchmarks.
2018-01-20T08:02:14Z aeth: It looks like most results are the paper by beach on DuckDuckGo: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lisp+fast+generic+function+dispatch&t=hf&ia=web
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2018-01-20T08:17:36Z aeth: I have tried refining the search and still cannot find any benchmarks
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2018-01-20T08:19:16Z phoe: aeth: they were only posted on the IRC afaik.
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2018-01-20T08:19:21Z phoe: just ask him. (:
2018-01-20T08:19:26Z aeth: ah
2018-01-20T08:19:32Z aeth: well I'm starting to think that they were only posted on IRC
2018-01-20T08:20:29Z Shinmera: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1508764653#1508764653
2018-01-20T08:20:41Z Shinmera: (irclog has a search. use it.)
2018-01-20T08:21:38Z aeth: I wasn't aware of that one, I always use the CCL one
2018-01-20T08:21:41Z aeth: thanks
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2018-01-20T08:27:35Z aeth: hmm
2018-01-20T08:28:45Z aeth: Maybe I should spend more time to proofread before I write things that are permanently logged on many different websites.
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2018-01-20T08:29:40Z Shinmera: I doubt spelling and grammar are going to be the things people will judge you for.
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2018-01-20T08:32:06Z aeth: Then I'm even worse off!
2018-01-20T08:32:41Z Shinmera: Basically if you don't want people to judge you just don't say anything ever :^)
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2018-01-20T08:33:03Z Shinmera: Personally I think some random people judging me doesn't really matter much.
2018-01-20T08:33:18Z aeth: The problem with IRC is that I'm usually on it when I'm too exhausted to program. So if you want to judge me at my sharpest, read my code, I guess.
2018-01-20T08:33:48Z jackdaniel: good morning
2018-01-20T08:33:53Z oleo: good morning
2018-01-20T08:34:28Z aeth: Oh, hey, it's morning here too... technically. Good morning.
2018-01-20T08:34:54Z oleo: ya slightly sunny winter morning
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2018-01-20T08:35:01Z oleo: eheh
2018-01-20T08:35:07Z aeth: The Sun is going to come up here in a few hours.
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2018-01-20T08:37:07Z phoe: good morning
2018-01-20T08:37:58Z Shinmera: aeth: I didn't know you read tabloids
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2018-01-20T08:39:31Z aeth: I hope I'm never famous. People might judge me by the source code I write, but 90% of it is when I didn't know better. I just don't have time to replace it all.
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2018-01-20T08:52:04Z aeth: Shinmera: Are you working on any interesting Lisp projects?
2018-01-20T08:52:14Z Shinmera: Depends on what you deem interesting
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2018-01-20T08:53:06Z aeth: On your Github, you appear to be the author of literally everything.
2018-01-20T08:53:53Z Shinmera: Oh dear I hope I'm not
2018-01-20T08:54:05Z aeth: tons of libraries, including some that I've used
2018-01-20T08:54:48Z aeth: How are you so productive?
2018-01-20T08:55:16Z Shinmera: Lots of people ask me that and I don't know what to say beyond that I'm terrible at everything else.
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2018-01-20T09:11:08Z JuanDaugherty: check ur pockets
2018-01-20T09:12:26Z JuanDaugherty: it's easy to be productive if you stay immersed in work, particularly work you do under your own control and for yourself
2018-01-20T09:12:50Z JuanDaugherty: slaving for dolts, that's the hard
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2018-01-20T11:11:17Z beach: Here is a very very preliminary suggestion for the layout of different windows in Clordane.  Comments are welcome. http://metamodular.com/fig-layout.pdf
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2018-01-20T11:12:45Z beach: The backtrace window is present not only when an error has been signaled, but also when the program has stopped at a breakpoint.
2018-01-20T11:14:10Z beach: Time for a break.  I'll read your possible comments when I get back.
2018-01-20T11:15:25Z phoe: I'd switch the REPL and the error message windows. Makes more sense when the left side is where all the trouble is, and the right side is there you can do stuff to fix it.
2018-01-20T11:16:05Z phoe: Or rather, the left side is immutable (the stack is read-only, so is the error message), the right side is mutable (you can edit code and evaluate things in the REPL).
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2018-01-20T11:16:29Z Shinmera: I'd also move the message above the trace, since people usually care about the message first
2018-01-20T11:17:14Z beach: In general, there won't be any message.
2018-01-20T11:17:47Z phoe: It might be a SLIME influence, but I don't think I need a separate window for the error message. It can be printed above the stacktrace in its window, just as in the SLIME debugger.
2018-01-20T11:18:01Z beach: In general, there won't be any message.
2018-01-20T11:18:29Z phoe: What does the layout look like without any message, then?
2018-01-20T11:18:47Z Shinmera: When there /is/ a message I'd want it to pop in above the backtrace.
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2018-01-20T11:19:12Z beach: phoe: The space for the message would be empty.
2018-01-20T11:19:20Z beach: But yeah, I see your point.
2018-01-20T11:20:00Z phoe: I generally think people enjoy allocated but unused space on their screen as much as they enjoy allocated but unused space in their memory.
2018-01-20T11:20:18Z beach: The error message window could be a transient window above the backtrace.
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2018-01-20T11:20:46Z phoe: I see. Okay.
2018-01-20T11:21:53Z beach: Great.  I'll work with that and come back with an improved suggestion.
2018-01-20T11:22:05Z beach: Now it is really time for a break.
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2018-01-20T11:36:47Z beach: http://metamodular.com/fig-layout.pdf
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2018-01-20T11:42:08Z beach: Now with positions in the code shown in red.
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2018-01-20T11:48:15Z phoe: beach: I like that, I'd use that.
2018-01-20T11:51:18Z beach: Thanks.  Now with the frame of the REPL marked: http://metamodular.com/fig-layout.pdf
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2018-01-20T12:00:16Z pjb: beach: often debuggers have a frame to show the values of variables and parameters.
2018-01-20T12:00:50Z phoe: sldb has it in the stacktrace.
2018-01-20T12:01:03Z phoe: or do you want a separate window that shows the variables and parameters in the current stack frame?
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2018-01-20T12:54:07Z flip214: (OPEN #P".../..."  :DIRECTION :OUTPUT :ELEMENT-TYPE BASE-CHAR :IF-EXISTS :SUPERSEDE :IF-DOES-NOT-EXIST :CREATE) but
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2018-01-20T12:54:37Z flip214: Unhandled SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR "The path #P".../..." does not exist."
2018-01-20T12:54:38Z flip214: ?
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2018-01-20T12:55:39Z flip214: hmmm, in the open call a "/" is prepended ... where is that from?
2018-01-20T12:57:04Z flip214: oh, (MAKE-PATHNAME "filename" :directory DIR) takes DIR to be absolute?!
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2018-01-20T13:00:06Z beach: phoe: I am not sure.  I was considering showing the value of a variable when it is hovered over by the pointer.
2018-01-20T13:01:08Z beach: phoe: Alternatively, show the live variables together with source near the source window.
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2018-01-20T13:05:55Z flip214: beach: the hovering thing becomes unwieldy if it's more than a simple atom....
2018-01-20T13:06:16Z beach: Maybe so.
2018-01-20T13:06:17Z flip214: so some option to open a new (X11!) window with the variable inspected would be nice.
2018-01-20T13:06:30Z beach: Definitely.
2018-01-20T13:06:31Z flip214: that's what I did for slimv - open another gvim, and inspect the current thing there
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2018-01-20T13:06:57Z flip214: has the nice advantage that multiple such windows can be easily moved around and visually compared, eg. before/after code change etc.
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2018-01-20T13:10:43Z beach: I see.
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2018-01-20T13:21:15Z puchacz: hi, can I declare type = list of characters for example?
2018-01-20T13:21:23Z beach: No
2018-01-20T13:21:25Z puchacz: something like (declare (list character) a)
2018-01-20T13:21:33Z puchacz: (declare (type (list character) a)) I mean
2018-01-20T13:21:44Z puchacz: beach, ok, tks
2018-01-20T13:23:29Z puchacz: but this one is OK, isn't it? (type (function (or character nil) (or character nil)) predicate)
2018-01-20T13:24:01Z puchacz: that a predicate is a function of two characters-or-nils
2018-01-20T13:24:42Z beach: Yes, it's OK.  But I don't recall the exact syntax by heart.
2018-01-20T13:24:45Z flip214: puchacz: look at SATISFIES
2018-01-20T13:24:56Z puchacz: flip214, tks as well
2018-01-20T13:25:08Z flip214: clhs satisfies
2018-01-20T13:25:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm
2018-01-20T13:26:01Z beach: puchacz: I think you need a level of parentheses around the argument type specifiers.
2018-01-20T13:26:20Z puchacz: beach: compiler accepted it, but I have no way of knowing if it means anything to it
2018-01-20T13:26:48Z puchacz: it accepts it with extra parens as well
2018-01-20T13:26:52Z puchacz: hmmm
2018-01-20T13:27:15Z puchacz: (type (function ((or character nil) (or character nil))) predicate)
2018-01-20T13:27:36Z beach: Yes, I think that is right.
2018-01-20T13:27:42Z puchacz: ok, tks :)
2018-01-20T13:27:59Z beach: Look at the page for the system class FUNCTION.
2018-01-20T13:28:16Z beach: clhs function/system class
2018-01-20T13:28:33Z beach: Yeah, I didn't think so.
2018-01-20T13:30:25Z beach: Oh, and you need ftype rather than type.
2018-01-20T13:30:38Z puchacz: beach, where did you find it pls?
2018-01-20T13:30:43Z beach: Otherwise, it is going to take PREDICATE to be a variable.
2018-01-20T13:31:03Z beach: On the same page I told you about, there are examples.
2018-01-20T13:31:37Z puchacz: bot did not know about this page
2018-01-20T13:31:42Z beach: clhs 3.3.3
2018-01-20T13:31:42Z specbot: Declaration Identifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_cc.htm
2018-01-20T13:31:48Z puchacz: tks
2018-01-20T13:32:03Z beach: clhs ftype
2018-01-20T13:32:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
2018-01-20T13:32:38Z beach: The bot probably knows, but I don't know how to ask.
2018-01-20T13:32:54Z flip214: puchacz: try to get the function description (via swank, or DESCRIBE, etc.)
2018-01-20T13:32:58Z beach: Look at the entry for FUNCTION, then choose "system class".
2018-01-20T13:33:00Z flip214: that'll show the type definition as well
2018-01-20T13:33:26Z beach: clhs functon
2018-01-20T13:33:26Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for functon.
2018-01-20T13:33:29Z beach: clhs function
2018-01-20T13:33:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
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2018-01-20T14:17:36Z flip214: when creating a new file but stopping the process with Ctrl-C, the file gets removed again.
2018-01-20T14:17:53Z flip214: Is there a flag for W-O-F (resp. OPEN) to _leave_ the file in the filesystem?
2018-01-20T14:18:51Z flip214: Is that :RENAME-AND-DELETE instead of :SUPERSEDE?
2018-01-20T14:19:33Z flip214: ah yes, that's better.
2018-01-20T14:19:42Z flip214: I still need a handler to flush the file, though...
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2018-01-20T14:40:16Z phoe: puchacz_: not really
2018-01-20T14:40:27Z phoe: (or character null) instead of (or character nil)
2018-01-20T14:40:36Z puchacz_: phoe: yes, just discovered it :)
2018-01-20T14:40:37Z phoe: the type NIL contains nothing.
2018-01-20T14:40:56Z puchacz_: it did not compile function calls with nil with previous declaration
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2018-01-20T14:41:35Z puchacz_: by the way, can I create a package with functions named like unicode/string-downcase, and then import this package shadowing string-downcase from common lisp?
2018-01-20T14:42:57Z beach: You can shadow any name, but you are not allowed to redefine the Common Lisp function.  Shadowing means you have the same SYMBOL-NAME but a different SYMBOL-PACKAGE for the names.
2018-01-20T14:43:19Z phoe: puchacz_: create FOO:SYMBOL-NAME and then (:shadowing-import-from #:foo #:symbol-name)
2018-01-20T14:43:40Z puchacz_: sorry, I don't understand
2018-01-20T14:43:58Z beach: phoe: It looked to me like puchacz_ wanted to replace the standard function.
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2018-01-20T14:44:08Z puchacz_: is it even possible what I want, i.e. to have name like "string-downcase" to refer to different function?
2018-01-20T14:44:08Z phoe: beach: yes.
2018-01-20T14:44:14Z phoe: puchacz_: depends
2018-01-20T14:44:25Z phoe: CL:STRING-DOWNCASE cannot be redefined
2018-01-20T14:44:27Z phoe: BUT
2018-01-20T14:44:32Z puchacz_: the reason is that lispworks' standard string-downcase does not handle unicode
2018-01-20T14:44:35Z beach: puchacz_: The consequences of trying to do that are undefined.
2018-01-20T14:44:44Z phoe: you can import a symbol named STRING-DOWNCASE from another package.
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2018-01-20T14:44:49Z phoe: and use this one.
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2018-01-20T14:45:23Z puchacz_: if I do so, will unqualified symbol STRING-DOWNCASE in source file text refer to my function?
2018-01-20T14:45:27Z phoe: yes
2018-01-20T14:45:36Z phoe: (defpackage #:my-package (:use #:cl) (:shadowing-import-from #:foo #:string-downcase))
2018-01-20T14:45:49Z phoe: then inside MY-PACKAGE, unqualified STRING-DOWNCASE will mean FOO:STRING-DOWNCASE
2018-01-20T14:45:54Z phoe: which is a symbol that you control.
2018-01-20T14:46:05Z puchacz_: is it defined by standard and therefore totally safe?
2018-01-20T14:46:10Z phoe: yes
2018-01-20T14:46:13Z puchacz_: ok, tks
2018-01-20T14:46:16Z phoe: it is absolutely portable code.
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2018-01-20T16:07:38Z borodust: Xach: is that good enough README (i know it's not exactly very helpful) to get included into main quicklisp? https://github.com/borodust/claw#claw
2018-01-20T16:07:54Z borodust: *main dist
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2018-01-20T16:14:52Z phoe: borodust: Xach doesn't care if it has a readme
2018-01-20T16:15:20Z phoe: Xach cares if your project has the author/description/license fields filled in the ASD file and if it builds on SBCL x64 Linux without errors
2018-01-20T16:15:43Z borodust: phoe: well, the guide states that it should have one :)
2018-01-20T16:15:52Z jackdaniel: actually offical requirement is that it builds on "at least on two CL implementations"
2018-01-20T16:15:57Z borodust: exactly at the same line where author/description/license is mentioned :)
2018-01-20T16:16:03Z phoe: oh
2018-01-20T16:16:09Z phoe whistles innocently
2018-01-20T16:16:19Z borodust: i'm looking at http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html
2018-01-20T16:16:29Z phoe: jackdaniel: then it was changed, it was just SBCL before since that's what Xach can test on.
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2018-01-20T16:30:01Z borodust: Xach: also, is that acceptable approach? https://github.com/borodust/chipmunk-blob
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2018-01-20T16:30:36Z borodust: Xach: this is still asdf library, it's just that it doesn't really contain author/description...
2018-01-20T16:31:43Z borodust: actually, i'll fix that
2018-01-20T16:31:47Z borodust: but still
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2018-01-20T16:38:29Z borodust: no, it's probably not... dammit
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2018-01-20T16:39:56Z borodust: quicklisp doesn't install itself to handle requires
2018-01-20T16:43:33Z puchacz_: hi again, I wanted to have (:shadowing-import-from #:unicode-hack :#char-equal ... etc) as symbol-macro, but it is not expanded in defpackage form
2018-01-20T16:43:58Z puchacz_: neither is standard macro
2018-01-20T16:44:03Z beach: puchacz_: Symbol macros are expanded only in a context of evaluation.
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2018-01-20T16:44:34Z beach: puchacz_: But you can use the #. reader macro perhaps.
2018-01-20T16:45:08Z puchacz_: how would it work? regular macro, but in defpackage form prefix it with #. like #.(expand-unicode-hack) ?
2018-01-20T16:45:27Z puchacz_: ah, READER macro. never done it :)
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2018-01-20T16:45:47Z beach: #.(do-the-thing)
2018-01-20T16:45:49Z puchacz_: no, got you. sorry - rollback last comment
2018-01-20T16:45:51Z puchacz_: yeah
2018-01-20T16:46:09Z beach: where do-the-thing is a function that returns what you want.
2018-01-20T16:48:15Z puchacz_: it seems to work, tks beach
2018-01-20T16:48:23Z beach: Anytime.
2018-01-20T16:48:27Z puchacz_: ;-)
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2018-01-20T16:57:51Z ebzzry: Is there a table that shows the benchmarks of the major CL implementations?
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2018-01-20T17:02:11Z scymtym: ebzzry: http://lispm.de/lisp/benchmarks.html but most of the results are not very recent to say the least
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2018-01-20T17:02:48Z puchacz_: sbcl 1.3, lispworks 7 - not bad
2018-01-20T17:02:53Z puchacz_: not that old I mean
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2018-01-20T17:05:18Z ebzzry: scymtym: thanks!
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2018-01-20T17:11:26Z ebzzry: Which is generally faster nowadays, SBCL or CCL?
2018-01-20T17:11:52Z Shinmera: SBCL for resulting code, CCL for compilation.
2018-01-20T17:12:47Z phoe: SBCL for quick code, CCL for quick compilation time
2018-01-20T17:12:57Z phoe: the first is nice in deployment, the second is nice in development
2018-01-20T17:12:58Z Shinmera: That's literally what I said.
2018-01-20T17:13:01Z phoe: yep
2018-01-20T17:13:28Z phoe: but I'm using SBCL 100% of the time and never had too many issues with compilation times on SBCL.
2018-01-20T17:13:48Z Shinmera: Waiting minutes for ironclad to compile is a bother.
2018-01-20T17:13:55Z phoe: all I notice is, when I quickload a new system, or a system after a Quicklisp dist update, then it can take a minute or two-- this.
2018-01-20T17:13:59Z Shinmera: Even mid-sized projects suffer.
2018-01-20T17:14:06Z phoe: Luckily it happens rarely.
2018-01-20T17:15:00Z ebzzry: thanks
2018-01-20T17:15:49Z scymtym: since a few releases ago, SBCL should be substantially faster at compiling ironclad. faster than previous SBCL releases, that is. i don't know about CCL compiling ironclad
2018-01-20T17:16:53Z scymtym: also, choosing an implementation for development solely based on compilation speed seems ill-advised
2018-01-20T17:20:21Z phoe: ...this is dangerously heading towards a SBCL versus CCL debate
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2018-01-20T17:32:44Z jackdaniel: I use all three (ECL included) to ensure that I didn't rely on some implementation-specific behavior
2018-01-20T17:33:27Z jackdaniel: fwiw compilation time is important during development
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2018-01-20T18:30:35Z puchacz_: why use different lisps like SBCL and CCL?
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2018-01-20T18:31:19Z malice: these aren't different lisps
2018-01-20T18:31:22Z malice: these are different compilers.
2018-01-20T18:31:43Z malice: Some of them excel at different things (e.g. SBCL isn't very good at debugging but generates quite fast code)
2018-01-20T18:32:06Z malice: Some are more popular than other, some might work at platform you need, plus personal preference.
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2018-01-20T18:32:30Z puchacz_: so areas they differ are: debugging, deployment on different platforms, anything else that is important?
2018-01-20T18:33:46Z beach: puchacz_: Some Common Lisp implementation target specific application types.  For example, ECL is good for communicating with C code, and Clasp is good for communicating with C++ code.
2018-01-20T18:34:25Z beach: puchacz_: Some others are extremely portable, like CLISP because they can function with a bytecode interpreter, so do not need to be retargeted for different architectures.
2018-01-20T18:34:26Z malice: Speed, interoperability with other languages, bugs, perhaps some OS interfaces, perhaps MOP implementations, implementation-dependant things and probably bunch of other I don't remember right now
2018-01-20T18:35:14Z malice: puchacz_: Is there some problem that motivates your questions?
2018-01-20T18:35:27Z puchacz_: malice: just looked up at SBCL vs CCL debate
2018-01-20T18:35:34Z puchacz_: and looked at benchmarks
2018-01-20T18:35:36Z puchacz_: the link
2018-01-20T18:36:24Z malice: The nice thing is that you have many different implementations, so you can just pick the one you like!
2018-01-20T18:36:59Z puchacz_: so from the benchmarks, I understand SBCL (because everybody uses it and quicklisp is checked against it AFAIK), lispworks (because it has stepper and it can deliver to many platforms) and ABCL (because you can script around java)
2018-01-20T18:37:00Z _death: you can also find hidden assumptions by trying your programs on different implementations
2018-01-20T18:37:02Z malice: Note that some implementations might be commercial and require payment, like LispWorks or Franz's compiler.
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2018-01-20T18:37:51Z puchacz_: is clisp viable? last release 7 or 8 years ago
2018-01-20T18:38:59Z malice: Not really, I believe there was some effort to bring it up to date, but I'm not sure if that succeeded, though I may be wrong.
2018-01-20T18:39:48Z malice: Last time I tried to compile it, there were some errors.
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2018-01-20T18:45:12Z phoe: clisp has seen some recent commits, but unless you really need to use it, don't.
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2018-01-20T18:46:46Z _death: clisp served me well in my first CL year or two
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2018-01-20T18:57:30Z makomo: hello everyone
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2018-01-20T18:58:56Z jackdaniel: as an example: clisp is the only CL which runs on minix3, ecl is in fact libecl.so and you may attach CL (and introduce live recompilation) to C/C++ application and mezzano is a whole operating system which provides CL as the language to communicate with it
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2018-01-20T19:10:39Z malice: Is it incorrect to say that in CL you call a method? Should you say that you call a generic function instead?
2018-01-20T19:12:14Z Bike: calling a generic function is probably more correct, yeah
2018-01-20T19:12:31Z Bike: the trick is that any generic function call can involve multiple methods
2018-01-20T19:13:16Z malice: That's true. I also meant a general context; I am aware that e.g. #'call-next-method calls, in fact, a method, and not a gf.
2018-01-20T19:14:06Z phoe: you may call a method, sure, mop:method-function returns you something that you can funcall
2018-01-20T19:14:31Z phoe: but in most general cases you want to call GFs instead of specific methods.
2018-01-20T19:15:57Z malice: Right. Thanks.
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2018-01-20T19:31:05Z pjb: puchacz_: why do you use clang instead of gcc?
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2018-01-20T19:33:40Z puchacz_: pjb: I don't program in C or C++ :-)
2018-01-20T19:33:42Z puchacz_: so I use neither
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2018-01-20T19:39:45Z malice: MOP isn't part of CL spec, right?
2018-01-20T19:40:38Z shka: malice: right
2018-01-20T19:40:55Z shka: well, only minor parts are
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2018-01-20T19:42:37Z phoe: MOP isn't a part of the CL standard.
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2018-01-20T19:42:48Z phoe: But it is so useful that everyone* implements it anyway.
2018-01-20T19:42:53Z phoe: *for a sane definition of everyone
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2018-01-20T19:46:10Z Bike: the extent to which they implement it varies
2018-01-20T19:46:17Z Bike: method-function probably works most places, though
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2018-01-20T19:49:09Z Bike: but calling a method by itself outside of a gf context is a weird th ing to do.
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2018-01-20T23:32:43Z antonv: can anyone point me to examples of UDP programming in CL? (usocket or whatever?)
2018-01-20T23:32:44Z antonv is now known as Guest65797
2018-01-20T23:33:28Z Guest65797: trying for an hour - everything fails
2018-01-20T23:33:46Z Guest65797: usocket:socket-server is an undefined function
2018-01-20T23:33:51Z Guest65797: despite mentioned in the docs
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2018-01-20T23:37:21Z Xach: Guest65797: you have to load a thing
2018-01-20T23:37:38Z Xach: Yes, the thing to load is usocket-server
2018-01-20T23:37:40Z Guest65797: loaded!
2018-01-20T23:37:50Z Guest65797: usocket-server?
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2018-01-20T23:37:56Z Guest65797: separate asdf system?
2018-01-20T23:37:59Z Xach: yes
2018-01-20T23:38:03Z Xach: This is a New thing
2018-01-20T23:38:03Z Guest65797: thanks!
2018-01-20T23:38:26Z Xach: i scratched my head nearly bald last time around trying to figure it out
2018-01-20T23:38:33Z Xach: but thankfully some of my hair has grown back now
2018-01-20T23:40:28Z Guest65797: Xach: can you recommend and example how to receive a udp packet?
2018-01-20T23:40:33Z Guest65797: and print it?
2018-01-20T23:40:43Z Guest65797: on a multicast address
2018-01-20T23:40:54Z Guest65797: "239.255.255.250" 1900
2018-01-20T23:41:29Z Xach: Guest65797: If I were faced with that task, i would do "man 7 udp" and try to translate.
2018-01-20T23:41:54Z Guest65797: how close the usocket API to BSD sockets?
2018-01-20T23:42:06Z Xach: I don't know, sorry
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2018-01-20T23:45:49Z jmercouris: rme did you get a chance to try ffigen?
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2018-01-21T00:52:11Z fiddlerwoaroof_: ping
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2018-01-21T00:55:08Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof_: pong
2018-01-21T00:55:23Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof_: How's your bridge going?
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2018-01-21T01:29:59Z iqubic: Anyone here?
2018-01-21T01:30:08Z iqubic: Or is it an empty room?
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2018-01-21T01:31:01Z jmercouris: Yes
2018-01-21T01:31:10Z jmercouris: What makes you think it is an empty room?
2018-01-21T01:31:30Z iqubic: No one was talking at all.
2018-01-21T01:31:36Z jmercouris: Well, it is a saturday night
2018-01-21T01:31:40Z jmercouris: I was about to leave to go out myself
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2018-01-21T01:32:16Z iqubic: Oh. I see. Most people want to hit the town.
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2018-01-21T01:32:43Z jmercouris: Yeah, why not :)
2018-01-21T01:32:50Z jmercouris: this is our chance to be O/T since no one else is around
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2018-01-21T01:43:50Z iqubic: I see. So, if want to learn Lisp, how should I start.
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2018-01-21T01:44:17Z iqubic: I'm using Emacs as my development environment, so I think that'll help me.
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2018-01-21T01:45:07Z jmercouris: Well, that's a tough question
2018-01-21T01:45:11Z jmercouris: what's your ultimate goal?
2018-01-21T01:45:20Z jmercouris: Simply learning lisp? or do you have some application in mind?
2018-01-21T01:45:27Z Bike: install slime if you haven't. write a bunch of programs
2018-01-21T01:45:54Z jmercouris: If you want to start with a "premade" emacs so you don't have to faff around with emacs in the beginning, you can look at portacle https://portacle.github.io
2018-01-21T01:46:37Z jmercouris: If you want to see a very simple lisp configuration, you can see mine: https://github.com/jmercouris/configuration/blob/master/.emacs.d/develop/_lisp.el
2018-01-21T01:46:47Z jmercouris: You can also see the hydra I use for lisp programming: https://github.com/jmercouris/configuration/blob/master/.emacs.d/hydra.el#L603
2018-01-21T01:47:52Z jmercouris: Here's the very very high level description, 1. Install a Lisp implementation of your choice 2. Install setup slime for emacs/your implementation 3. Install quicklisp 4. Install/setup Paredit 5. Install/setup Smartparens 6. Get started learning
2018-01-21T01:48:30Z jmercouris: Bike: I have a question for you if you have a moment
2018-01-21T01:48:36Z Bike: shoot
2018-01-21T01:48:57Z jmercouris: It's also kind of an opinion question
2018-01-21T01:49:09Z jmercouris: I have this macro I use: https://github.com/next-browser/next/blob/master/next/source/command.lisp#L25
2018-01-21T01:49:19Z jmercouris: that is effectively designed for "interactive" functions (using emacs terminology)
2018-01-21T01:49:25Z jmercouris: e.g. functions that are M-x invokable
2018-01-21T01:49:39Z Bike: you don't need that make-condition call
2018-01-21T01:50:06Z jmercouris: before we go off on that tangent let me finish this thought
2018-01-21T01:50:11Z jmercouris: otherwise I will forget what I was going to ask
2018-01-21T01:50:15Z Bike: yeah sure, just a small note
2018-01-21T01:50:37Z jmercouris: so I was thinking wouldn't it be cool to combine some sort of ability to embed a (with-buffer) macro inside?
2018-01-21T01:50:44Z jmercouris: Imagine the syntax could look liek this
2018-01-21T01:51:14Z jmercouris: (defcommand some-command-name "Some-docstring of sorts" \n :with-active-buffer \n (body...))
2018-01-21T01:51:19Z jmercouris: What do you think? is this a stupid looking syntax?
2018-01-21T01:51:39Z jmercouris: I just don't want to have people needing to manually form closures every time they wish to work with a buffer for the duration of a function
2018-01-21T01:51:40Z plll[m]: Anyone running lisp on the beaglebone black? Couldn't find sbcl in the Debian repos
2018-01-21T01:51:48Z jmercouris: because the *active-buffer* may change during the execution of the function
2018-01-21T01:52:16Z Bike: well, i'm not sure i understand what this active buffer thing is, but i'd say if you're going to add options you should have a dedicated list for it in the syntax, rather than picking them out of the body
2018-01-21T01:52:21Z iqubic: So what's the best way to set up emacs for Lisp coding?
2018-01-21T01:52:37Z jmercouris: iqubic: Did you read any of what I wrote?
2018-01-21T01:52:43Z iqubic: Not yet.
2018-01-21T01:52:51Z Bike: install slime (from melpa, or there's quicklisp-slime-helper), and that's it
2018-01-21T01:52:52Z jmercouris: GO ahead and read it, you'll find the solution there :)
2018-01-21T01:53:16Z jmercouris: Bike: What do you mean by a dedicated list?
2018-01-21T01:53:19Z jmercouris: where would this list reside?
2018-01-21T01:53:29Z iqubic: What is paredit, and smartparens?
2018-01-21T01:53:29Z jmercouris: Something like (defcommand (special-list) (normal-args-list))?
2018-01-21T01:53:34Z Bike: yeah.
2018-01-21T01:53:42Z iqubic: I have smartparens set-up, I think.
2018-01-21T01:53:52Z jmercouris: iqubic: Smartparens highlights parens
2018-01-21T01:53:59Z Bike: so you'd have (:with-active-buffer). or just ()
2018-01-21T01:54:03Z jmercouris: iqubic: Paredit lets you do nice functions, you'll need it later
2018-01-21T01:54:03Z iqubic: Yeah, I have that set-up.
2018-01-21T01:54:14Z jmercouris: Ignore paredit for now
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2018-01-21T01:54:20Z jmercouris: just install an implementation and slime on your machine
2018-01-21T01:54:20Z iqubic: does paredit work with evil?
2018-01-21T01:54:21Z jmercouris: then M-x slime
2018-01-21T01:54:29Z jmercouris: iqubic: probably
2018-01-21T01:54:34Z jmercouris: I don't see why not
2018-01-21T01:54:58Z jmercouris: Bike: Ok, thanks for the advice, I'll think about it
2018-01-21T01:55:11Z jmercouris: I think I should use the defcommand a lot, and see what kind of patterns emerge, and then write a macro to handle these common patterns
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2018-01-21T01:55:22Z Bike: sorry i don't get the buffer thing, i don't have much context for your program and i don't do that much emacs programming
2018-01-21T01:55:24Z jmercouris: e.g. do I find myself always forming closures around the active buffer, if so, make it one of those options
2018-01-21T01:55:35Z jmercouris: Bike: No, it's fine, it's just a detail
2018-01-21T01:55:38Z iqubic: I now have sbcl installed. What next?
2018-01-21T01:55:41Z iqubic: Quicklisp?
2018-01-21T01:55:49Z Bike: sure.
2018-01-21T01:55:51Z jmercouris: Bike: The whole point is that I'll have repetitive code within defcommands
2018-01-21T01:56:01Z jmercouris: and I was thinking of how to structure that for the end user
2018-01-21T01:56:04Z Bike: the other option is of course defining another macro
2018-01-21T01:56:10Z Bike: defcommand-with-active-buffer or somethin
2018-01-21T01:56:13Z iqubic: How do I install quicklisp?
2018-01-21T01:56:23Z iqubic: with this:
2018-01-21T01:56:24Z jmercouris: Yeah, but idk, not a huge fan of that
2018-01-21T01:56:25Z iqubic: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2018-01-21T01:56:30Z Bike: yep, follow those directions
2018-01-21T01:56:35Z jmercouris: iqubic: Please read the directions
2018-01-21T01:57:04Z iqubic: How do I load a .lisp file with sbcl?
2018-01-21T01:57:13Z jmercouris: iqubic: C-c C-l I think
2018-01-21T01:57:18Z Bike: that's in slime.
2018-01-21T01:57:27Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, shit, I assume he had it running
2018-01-21T01:57:30Z jmercouris: It should just be load
2018-01-21T01:57:30Z Bike: if you haven't got slime set up, just start up sbcl and (load "whatever.lisp")
2018-01-21T01:57:33Z jmercouris: clhs load
2018-01-21T01:57:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
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2018-01-21T01:58:24Z jmercouris: Bike: Did I ask this many questions when I first started :D?
2018-01-21T01:58:26Z jmercouris: I honestly can't remember
2018-01-21T01:58:31Z jmercouris: I'll have to go through the IRC logs lol
2018-01-21T01:58:33Z Bike: beats me
2018-01-21T01:59:04Z iqubic: Now to get slime going.
2018-01-21T01:59:21Z jmercouris: M-x slime
2018-01-21T01:59:34Z jmercouris: Set it up in the same way that I setup mine
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2018-01-21T02:00:56Z iqubic: I'll try that.
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2018-01-21T02:04:09Z iqubic: Do I also want to get slime-company?
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2018-01-21T02:04:25Z pransmonkey: Hello
2018-01-21T02:04:28Z Bike: no idea what that is
2018-01-21T02:04:44Z Bike: doesn't seem necessary
2018-01-21T02:04:47Z pransmonkey: How the hell does `(set (getf *some-nil-list* :wtf) "yeah wtf")` works?
2018-01-21T02:04:48Z iqubic: Bike: It's another melpa package.
2018-01-21T02:05:05Z jmercouris: iqubic: Do you use company-mode?
2018-01-21T02:05:09Z iqubic: I do.
2018-01-21T02:05:09Z jmercouris: if so, use slime-company
2018-01-21T02:05:13Z Bike: pransmonkey: what is the content of *some-nil-list*?
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2018-01-21T02:05:21Z pransmonkey: In other words, how does `(getf *some-nil-list* :random-sym)` returns a setable location if the list is empty???
2018-01-21T02:05:38Z Bike: pransmonkey: and do you mean set, or setf?
2018-01-21T02:05:45Z pransmonkey: Bike: (defparameter *some-nil-list* ())
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2018-01-21T02:06:08Z pransmonkey: setf, sir.
2018-01-21T02:06:18Z Bike: "sir"?
2018-01-21T02:06:27Z Bike: and, setf is a macro, the getf is not evaluated normally
2018-01-21T02:06:31Z pransmonkey: madam, whatever.
2018-01-21T02:06:35Z Bike: there is no "location" being returned
2018-01-21T02:06:47Z Bike: try macroexpanding the setf to see
2018-01-21T02:07:06Z iqubic: jmercouris: Why is it that slime-company can't be found on melpa.org?
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2018-01-21T02:07:21Z Bike: it might be an unstable package or something
2018-01-21T02:07:31Z Bike: but if you don't use company-mode it's irrelevant, so don't sweat it
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2018-01-21T02:07:40Z iqubic: I do use company though.
2018-01-21T02:07:44Z Bike: oh, okay.
2018-01-21T02:07:51Z pransmonkey: Okay, how does `(setf (getf *some-ni-list* :wtf) 1)` makes `*some-nil-list* to be `(:A 1)`?
2018-01-21T02:08:02Z Bike: did you look at the macroexpansion?
2018-01-21T02:08:05Z pransmonkey: Bike: will, do!
2018-01-21T02:08:21Z iqubic: Also, melpa is the unstable archive, right?
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2018-01-21T02:09:02Z iqubic: melpa.org is the unstable archive. stable.melpa.org is the stable one.
2018-01-21T02:09:23Z Bike: i don't use melpa enough, i'm just guessing
2018-01-21T02:09:30Z zazzerino: iqubic: slime-company is available on melpa. have you followed the instructions on https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MELPA to set it up?
2018-01-21T02:09:37Z iqubic: I have.
2018-01-21T02:10:00Z zazzerino: have you tried running M-x package-list-packages
2018-01-21T02:10:07Z iqubic: I have.
2018-01-21T02:10:24Z pransmonkey: Wait, is getf a macro?
2018-01-21T02:10:26Z zazzerino: What do you see after running that command?
2018-01-21T02:10:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-01-21T02:10:58Z Bike: getf is a function.
2018-01-21T02:11:01Z Bike: setf is a macro
2018-01-21T02:11:25Z pransmonkey: So how come getf disappears in the expans of `setf (getf ...))` .....
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2018-01-21T02:11:42Z Bike: because setf is a macro that does whatever it wants with the forms
2018-01-21T02:11:42Z pransmonkey: This is what I get:
2018-01-21T02:11:43Z pransmonkey: (LET* ((#:NEW592 1))   (LET ((#:NEW1 (SB-IMPL::%PUTF *PS* :A #:NEW592)))     (SETQ *PS* #:NEW1)     #:NEW592))
2018-01-21T02:11:50Z pransmonkey: Grrr, formatting got screwed up.
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2018-01-21T02:12:05Z Bike: like i said, the getf is not evaluated normally, or in fact at all
2018-01-21T02:12:06Z pransmonkey: Bike: Ah! that makes sense.
2018-01-21T02:12:11Z iqubic: M-x package-refresh-contents was what I needed.
2018-01-21T02:12:17Z pransmonkey: I can't trust trust my lisp forms anymore. :P
2018-01-21T02:12:23Z Bike: consider the basic case of (setf x 5). is the form 'x' evaluated? there's no reason to
2018-01-21T02:12:29Z Bike: the previous value of x is irrelevant, after all
2018-01-21T02:12:55Z pransmonkey: So the fact that it works has nothing to do with getf?
2018-01-21T02:13:05Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-01-21T02:13:22Z Bike: getf has a setf expansion, meaning that when the setf macro gets a getf form it knows what to do with it
2018-01-21T02:13:25Z Bike: namely, that %putf thing
2018-01-21T02:13:47Z Bike: you could also try macroexpanding e.g. (setf (car x) y), which will give you something with rplaca
2018-01-21T02:14:07Z pransmonkey: But can I do `(setf (getf *ps* :blah) bleh)` without getf?
2018-01-21T02:14:08Z jmercouris: Is there a good login shell based on lisp?
2018-01-21T02:14:09Z iqubic: Now that I have slime installed. What should I do now?
2018-01-21T02:14:11Z jmercouris: all I can come up with is lush
2018-01-21T02:14:17Z Bike: pransmonkey: i'm not sure what you mean.
2018-01-21T02:14:22Z jmercouris: iqubic: M-x slime...
2018-01-21T02:14:45Z pransmonkey: Bike: I mean, what is an alternative way of getting the `(setf (getf *ps* :blah) bleh)` result, without getf.
2018-01-21T02:14:52Z pransmonkey: Just so I can wrap my head around what is going on.
2018-01-21T02:14:58Z Bike: the macroexpansion
2018-01-21T02:15:03Z Bike: doesn't involve getf, if i'm not mistaken
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2018-01-21T02:15:18Z Bike: %putf is an internal function, of course, which is less than ideal
2018-01-21T02:15:32Z pransmonkey: Yes, that is what I am getting at.
2018-01-21T02:15:38Z whoman: x_x;;
2018-01-21T02:15:50Z pierpa: same things happen if you want to
2018-01-21T02:15:52Z pransmonkey: To me, it seems as if setf requires that you use getf and work from there...
2018-01-21T02:15:53Z pierpa: oops
2018-01-21T02:15:54Z pransmonkey: which is kinda weird.
2018-01-21T02:16:01Z Bike: ...what?
2018-01-21T02:16:03Z pierpa: same thing happens if you want to set an array element
2018-01-21T02:16:07Z pransmonkey: Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
2018-01-21T02:16:12Z Bike: how does it require that you use getf?
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2018-01-21T02:16:19Z iqubic: Are there any slime customizations I'll want to make?
2018-01-21T02:16:23Z pransmonkey: So how do I do `(setf (getf *ps* :blah) bleh)` without getf?
2018-01-21T02:16:31Z Bike: well, you look at the behavior of setf getf
2018-01-21T02:16:34Z jmercouris: iqubic: Yes, they are in my repostiroy I linked
2018-01-21T02:16:36Z Bike: which is defined on the clhs page for getf
2018-01-21T02:16:37Z Bike: clhs getf
2018-01-21T02:16:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2018-01-21T02:16:41Z pransmonkey: You're talking too meta.
2018-01-21T02:16:45Z pransmonkey: I am sorry, but that is not very helpful.
2018-01-21T02:16:50Z pransmonkey: If I could figure it out, I wouldn't have asked here.
2018-01-21T02:17:07Z pransmonkey: RTFM is cool, but useless.
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2018-01-21T02:17:20Z Bike: basically it looks through the list to see if there's an existing keyword pair
2018-01-21T02:17:21Z pransmonkey: I fail to think of another way of doing `(setf (getf *ps* :blah) bleh)` which would help me understand the whole thing.
2018-01-21T02:17:23Z Bike: and if it's there, alters the value
2018-01-21T02:17:34Z Bike: if there is no existing keyword pair, it puts a new one at the front of the list
2018-01-21T02:17:38Z pierpa: pransmonkey: the answer is: you can't do what you are asking using standard CL.  Standard CL uses macros which expand to implementation dependent things
2018-01-21T02:17:42Z pransmonkey: Bike: Thanks, after you have explained, and looking at the macro expension, I understand how it works.
2018-01-21T02:17:55Z Bike: it's perfectly possible to do the behavior of setf getf without using setf or getf, it's just list manipulation
2018-01-21T02:18:15Z pransmonkey: What I am trying to know is, whatever, that is the "standard" way of doing it, and it is often that macros map functions passed with completely different things.
2018-01-21T02:18:26Z Bike: setf is a pretty special case
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2018-01-21T02:18:32Z Bike: but in principle any macro could do something like it, yeah
2018-01-21T02:18:57Z Bike: on sbcl there's a compare-and-swap macro that works similarly to setf, in that (cas form ...) is going to macroexpand into something different based on the cas expansion
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2018-01-21T02:19:20Z Bike: conceptually, in (setf (getf ...) ...) the getf form is not a function call, it is a "place"
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2018-01-21T02:19:44Z pransmonkey: Aha.
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2018-01-21T02:20:10Z pransmonkey: So a place isn't necessarily a real memory location or list reference or anything.
2018-01-21T02:20:13Z iqubic: I don't have a .quicklisp directory.
2018-01-21T02:20:22Z iqubic: Is that bad?
2018-01-21T02:20:41Z Bike: pransmonkey: yeah, a place is just anything setf knows about, kinda
2018-01-21T02:20:59Z Bike: which is why places shouldn't be thought of like pointers
2018-01-21T02:21:08Z pransmonkey: That explains a lot.
2018-01-21T02:21:09Z pransmonkey: Thank you.
2018-01-21T02:21:11Z Bike: iqubic: have you loaded quicklisp?
2018-01-21T02:21:18Z sjl: http://malisper.me/getting-places/ is an intro to places if you want a longer explanation
2018-01-21T02:21:38Z Bike: iqubic: also, by default it's just 'quicklisp' without the ., i think.
2018-01-21T02:21:50Z pransmonkey: Bike: I was thinking of place as some kind of pointer or reference, and so `(setf (getf *ps* :non-existence-pointer-or-reference) bleh)` didn't make sense.
2018-01-21T02:21:55Z sjl: Common Lisp Recipes has a good section about them, but it's not free
2018-01-21T02:22:08Z Bike: i see, yeah. that's kind of a common confusion i think.
2018-01-21T02:22:18Z Bike: one place that falls apart is CLOS accessors, which are just generic functions
2018-01-21T02:22:25Z Bike: so you can define methods to do literally whatever you want
2018-01-21T02:22:30Z pransmonkey: interesting.
2018-01-21T02:22:53Z Bike: you can also define normal setf functions, which also do whatever you want
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2018-01-21T02:24:53Z iqubic: Bike: I have loaded and installed quicklisp. At least I think I did.
2018-01-21T02:25:46Z Bike: when you start up sbcl again, does (find-package "QL") get you anything, or just NIL?
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2018-01-21T02:26:06Z iqubic: I get nil.
2018-01-21T02:26:09Z iqubic: NIL
2018-01-21T02:26:19Z jmercouris: any mailing list software exist in common lisp?
2018-01-21T02:26:21Z Bike: okay, then you didn't. what happened when you loaded the quicklisp setup file?
2018-01-21T02:26:48Z jmercouris: iqubic: Did you do (ql:add-to-init-file)? or whatever it's called?
2018-01-21T02:27:10Z iqubic: No.
2018-01-21T02:27:30Z iqubic: Bike: If I run (quicklisp-quickstart:install) I get this:
2018-01-21T02:27:45Z iqubic: Quicklisp has already been installed. Load #P"/home/avi/quicklisp/setup.lisp" instead.
2018-01-21T02:27:51Z jmercouris: iqubic: within sbcl: (ql:add-to-init-file)
2018-01-21T02:27:56Z iqubic: Oh, wait...
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2018-01-21T02:28:45Z iqubic: I got it working now
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2018-01-21T02:30:26Z antonv: have anyone ever received a multicast UDP packed in CL? I see no API for that.
2018-01-21T02:30:36Z iqubic: Alright, I still don't have a .quicklisp file.
2018-01-21T02:30:44Z iqubic: s/file/directory.
2018-01-21T02:30:50Z Bike: do you have a quicklisp directory?
2018-01-21T02:30:54Z iqubic: no.
2018-01-21T02:31:00Z jmercouris: Are you sure?
2018-01-21T02:31:03Z Bike: okay. when you start sbcl does the find-package get you anything?
2018-01-21T02:31:04Z iqubic: yes.
2018-01-21T02:31:06Z iqubic: Yes.
2018-01-21T02:31:19Z Bike: okay. did you specify a different install directory or anything?
2018-01-21T02:31:26Z jmercouris: iqubic: I'm very ready to say, give up, install portacle, and if you like common-lisp, go ahead and set this up later
2018-01-21T02:31:41Z jmercouris: iqubic: https://portacle.github.io
2018-01-21T02:31:59Z Bike: you should be able to get the directory name with ql:*quicklisp-home*
2018-01-21T02:32:29Z pransmonkey: How do I pretty print a tree?
2018-01-21T02:32:39Z Bike: pprint
2018-01-21T02:33:17Z pransmonkey: I was more thinking of a graphical representation.
2018-01-21T02:33:22Z pransmonkey: Boxes and arrows, and all that jazz.
2018-01-21T02:33:23Z iqubic: Oh, wait. For some reason the directory is not hidden.
2018-01-21T02:33:32Z Bike: that's why i mentioned the dot
2018-01-21T02:33:34Z iqubic: It's just standard "quicklisp"
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2018-01-21T02:33:37Z Bike: pransmonkey: nothing built in
2018-01-21T02:33:46Z iqubic: So what should I do now.
2018-01-21T02:33:55Z Bike: well, now you have quicklisp and slime
2018-01-21T02:34:06Z Bike: you can start sbcl in slime, i guess, so now your environment's set up all right
2018-01-21T02:34:26Z iqubic: (find-package "QL") only works if I have loaded the right file though.
2018-01-21T02:34:33Z Bike: you didn't put it in your init file?
2018-01-21T02:34:41Z iqubic: How do I do that?
2018-01-21T02:34:53Z Bike: (ql:add-to-init-file)
2018-01-21T02:35:01Z Bike: i think the installer should have prompted you for this
2018-01-21T02:35:11Z iqubic: Yeah, that just hangs sbcl.
2018-01-21T02:35:11Z emma_ is now known as em
2018-01-21T02:35:20Z iqubic: I'm not sure that's actually doing anything.
2018-01-21T02:35:23Z Bike: uh... that's weird.
2018-01-21T02:35:31Z Bike: maybe your init file is write protected or something.
2018-01-21T02:35:33Z iqubic: How long should the command take to run?
2018-01-21T02:35:39Z Bike: it writes to a file. shouldn't take long.
2018-01-21T02:35:51Z Bike: well, forget it.
2018-01-21T02:35:56Z iqubic: Bike: I'm using Nix-os, which might be my issue here.
2018-01-21T02:36:00Z Bike: ah, maybe
2018-01-21T02:36:14Z Bike: well, just make an .sbclrc if it doesn't exist, and put (load "wherever/quicklisp/setup.lisp") in there
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2018-01-21T02:36:24Z Bike: that's pretty much all add-to-init-file does
2018-01-21T02:36:39Z pransmonkey: And include `(load "/path/to/quicklisp/setup")`?
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2018-01-21T02:36:51Z Bike: what?
2018-01-21T02:37:52Z pransmonkey: In the sbclrc to make sure quicklisp is loaded?
2018-01-21T02:38:01Z iqubic: That works.
2018-01-21T02:38:20Z iqubic: Well, now I have a working lisp devel evironment. Thanks all.
2018-01-21T02:38:51Z iqubic: Also running (exit) hangs sbcl
2018-01-21T02:38:53Z Bike: pransmonkey: is that not what i said?
2018-01-21T02:39:01Z Bike: iqubic: i have no idea what's going on there, sorry
2018-01-21T02:39:23Z iqubic: Bike: I don't think I should be running sbcl in eshell.
2018-01-21T02:39:26Z iqubic: LOL.
2018-01-21T02:39:33Z Bike: that's... probably problematic, yeah
2018-01-21T02:39:34Z Bike: did slime not work?
2018-01-21T02:39:42Z Bike: like, M-x slime
2018-01-21T02:39:53Z iqubic: No, slime works.
2018-01-21T02:40:00Z Bike: then why eshell?
2018-01-21T02:40:04Z iqubic: IDK man.
2018-01-21T02:40:18Z Bike: i mean, slime provides a repl
2018-01-21T02:40:20Z pransmonkey: I use sbcl with vlime (vim).
2018-01-21T02:40:23Z pransmonkey: And quicklisp.
2018-01-21T02:40:24Z Bike: that not happening?
2018-01-21T02:40:26Z pransmonkey: So far so good.
2018-01-21T02:40:40Z pransmonkey: I don't have to jump ship into the evil that Emacs is.
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2018-01-21T02:40:58Z iqubic: Bike: M-x slime works for me, and gives me a repl.
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2018-01-21T02:41:13Z iqubic: I'm not sure why I was using eshell.
2018-01-21T02:41:17Z Bike: oh, okay.
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2018-01-21T02:44:26Z jmercouris: Syntax highlighting for macros?
2018-01-21T02:44:28Z whoman: o_O
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2018-01-21T02:45:15Z whoman: lisp syntax highlighting should truly be contextual and depth-ual, rather than literal lettered identifiers
2018-01-21T02:45:34Z whoman: or even no highlighting at all.
2018-01-21T02:45:52Z jmercouris: whoman: so, no?
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2018-01-21T02:46:22Z Bike: by default slime just does some dumb shit like coloring operator names beginning with "def"
2018-01-21T02:46:26Z Bike: works pretty well for me in practice
2018-01-21T02:46:27Z pransmonkey: You can have at least some highlighting for s-expressions.
2018-01-21T02:46:33Z pransmonkey: With matching pran highlighter.
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2018-01-21T02:47:56Z whoman: jmercouris, the question lacks an existential word ?? like "is" or "are" or query words like "when" or "how" ....
2018-01-21T02:48:23Z whoman: didnt feel it was a full question so i went on my own thing about stuff
2018-01-21T02:48:28Z whoman: sry
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2018-01-21T02:48:50Z jmercouris: whoman: "How to enable syntax highlighting for macros"
2018-01-21T02:49:24Z jmercouris: Bike: Yet, it is not highlighting my "defcommand"
2018-01-21T02:49:32Z jmercouris: What is going on :(
2018-01-21T02:49:38Z jmercouris: The indentation is also all wrong
2018-01-21T02:49:45Z jmercouris: I am starting to wonder if these are CCL specific issues
2018-01-21T02:50:01Z iqubic: Are you the one working on the next browser thing?
2018-01-21T02:50:08Z jmercouris: Yes sir!
2018-01-21T02:50:09Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2018-01-21T02:50:25Z iqubic: Cool. How far are you in the project?
2018-01-21T02:50:36Z jmercouris: Well, pretty far :)
2018-01-21T02:50:41Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-01-21T02:50:54Z jmercouris: trying to make it easier right now to write commands and to customize, then release a package manager, then some quality of life things to make it easier for noobs
2018-01-21T02:50:59Z jmercouris: like "hydra" and stuff like that
2018-01-21T02:51:04Z iqubic: I see.
2018-01-21T02:51:35Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-21T02:51:41Z jmercouris: Anyways, gotta go for now, talk later!
2018-01-21T02:51:45Z jmercouris: Please email me if you have any questinos
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2018-01-21T02:52:26Z whoman: questinos !
2018-01-21T02:52:34Z whoman: spanish [in]quests
2018-01-21T02:53:03Z whoman: jmercouris, How to complete sentence.
2018-01-21T02:53:26Z iqubic: Preguntas?
2018-01-21T02:53:27Z whoman: how to maximize our communicative duties here in the metaverse
2018-01-21T02:53:38Z iqubic: That's spanish for questions.
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2018-01-21T02:54:58Z whoman: i would have never guessed that. kotae[ru] is 'to answer' in japanese
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2018-01-21T03:04:30Z antonv: so, no-one used multicast upd?
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2018-01-21T03:16:06Z pierpa: You should at least say which implementations you are interested in. I seem to remember thare was a library for this for lispworks, but I have not first-hand experience.
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2018-01-21T03:37:20Z dmiles: multcast udp is differnce than normal udp ?
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2018-01-21T03:38:52Z dmiles: one would set up the broadcast streams each with its own destination?
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2018-01-21T03:43:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-21T03:43:36Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
2018-01-21T03:44:00Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2018-01-21T03:47:45Z beach: iqubic: How is learning Common Lisp going?
2018-01-21T03:52:21Z iqubic: Slowly.
2018-01-21T03:52:44Z iqubic: I've taken a break from all coding because school was really hard.
2018-01-21T03:53:24Z iqubic: So the last time I've done any lisp coding was like, last October.
2018-01-21T03:55:01Z fikka joined #lisp
2018-01-21T03:55:18Z iqubic: Also, I haven't found any lisp tutorials that I actually like. So that's fun.
2018-01-21T03:56:28Z whoman: heh
2018-01-21T03:57:14Z whoman: marriage itself is the best tutorial for marriage. imagine reading a how-to for dummies on marriage, written by some dude having one marriage and knowing other dudes having marriages, but still not knowing how your marriage will go. just get married - life is the best teacher
2018-01-21T03:57:25Z whoman: also curious what you are focused on in school iqubic  ?
2018-01-21T03:57:30Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018-01-21T03:57:58Z whoman: also some1!!! please help me!!!!!!!!!!!! the topic is still SBCL 1.4.0 and we are a bit further than that
2018-01-21T03:58:55Z beach: iqubic: What is wrong with the ones you have found?
2018-01-21T04:01:53Z iqubic: beach: I haven't found any.
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2018-01-21T04:02:13Z beach: You have been recommended PCL.
2018-01-21T04:03:40Z iqubic: whoman: I'm in American High School, so I'm learning a bit of everything at the moment.
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2018-01-21T04:04:04Z iqubic: beach: I also don't know what I should make with Lisp. It all seems so hard.
2018-01-21T04:04:34Z pragmaticmonkey: iqubic: Make a lisp dialect, written in lisp, that makes lisp work the way you want to lisp.
2018-01-21T04:04:36Z pragmaticmonkey: I am kidding.
2018-01-21T04:05:07Z pragmaticmonkey: But PCL has some nice, well, practical, exercises: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-01-21T04:05:41Z iqubic: Cool, I'll try that.
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2018-01-21T04:08:05Z beach: iqubic: For the more long-term projects, here is a list of ideas: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-01-21T04:08:54Z iqubic: Wow, those all seem complex and hard to write.
2018-01-21T04:09:14Z beach: Sure.  Otherwise, I would write them myself.
2018-01-21T04:09:25Z iqubic: LOL.
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2018-01-21T04:11:55Z pragmaticmonkey: iqubic: Hahaha, if you follow the book, you can solve the exercise almost with no problem.
2018-01-21T04:12:10Z pragmaticmonkey: I was surprised how much lisp I had learned by the time I did the mp3 catalog thingy
2018-01-21T04:12:23Z pragmaticmonkey: With the test framework, I actually surprised myself.
2018-01-21T04:13:13Z pragmaticmonkey: I went way further than the book and have `testcat`, `testgroup`, Test-Table like testing.
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2018-01-21T04:16:18Z pragmaticmonkey: What is a paste that has lisp syntax?
2018-01-21T04:17:09Z pragmaticmonkey: Please review my code https://codeshare.io/5v7EjL
2018-01-21T04:17:12Z pragmaticmonkey: It is Common Lisp.
2018-01-21T04:17:45Z pragmaticmonkey: Please don't change anything without a comment.
2018-01-21T04:17:46Z pragmaticmonkey: Thanks.
2018-01-21T04:19:40Z Bike: looks unfinished?
2018-01-21T04:20:30Z iqubic: Yeah, that with-gensyms macro looks incomplete.
2018-01-21T04:20:38Z pragmaticmonkey: it works....
2018-01-21T04:20:40Z Bike: oh, now it's all there
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2018-01-21T04:21:12Z pragmaticmonkey: First time suing that website, maybe it is slow.
2018-01-21T04:21:19Z pragmaticmonkey: using*
2018-01-21T04:21:25Z pragmaticmonkey: But might sue them for being really slow. lol
2018-01-21T04:21:35Z iqubic: This looks almost identical to what PCL gives you.
2018-01-21T04:22:09Z pragmaticmonkey: it is based on it, for sure
2018-01-21T04:22:18Z pragmaticmonkey: But it is slightly different, see the last example.
2018-01-21T04:23:55Z pragmaticmonkey: For example, the tests are a simple cons cell ( to-be-test exception ) and doesn't need the check macro.
2018-01-21T04:24:26Z pragmaticmonkey: s/exception/expectation/g
2018-01-21T04:24:27Z pragmaticmonkey: grrrrr
2018-01-21T04:25:44Z iqubic: I could try my hand at an irc bot in Lisp.
2018-01-21T04:26:04Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-01-21T04:26:04Z pragmaticmonkey: How about creating a Neural Network Framework?
2018-01-21T04:26:09Z pragmaticmonkey: Sounds easy to me.
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2018-01-21T04:26:31Z pragmaticmonkey: ( *_* )/
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2018-01-21T04:32:11Z Bike: (defun transfer (x) (if (plusp x) x 0)) (defun neuron (weights inputs) (transfer (apply #'+ (first weights) (mapcar #'* (rest weights) inputs))))
2018-01-21T04:34:31Z iqubic: I know what I want to do in lisp now.
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2018-01-21T04:35:17Z iqubic: I want to write a version of this game:
2018-01-21T04:35:37Z iqubic: https://gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048/
2018-01-21T04:35:57Z Bike: ey, i remember that
2018-01-21T04:36:28Z iqubic: I figure it shouldn't be too hard to port to lisp.
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2018-01-21T05:02:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: iqubic, for what it's worth there is #lispgames where a bunch of weirdos hang out.
2018-01-21T05:02:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: A few game engine options for you to choose from for that kind of simple case.
2018-01-21T05:03:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sorry for the plug, I'm just one of the weirdos over there now. :)
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2018-01-21T05:14:52Z aeth: a 2048 clone should be very easy to do in Lisp
2018-01-21T05:15:08Z aeth: Anything that's abstract, non-realtime 2D can be written many, many ways. Efficiency isn't really an issue
2018-01-21T05:18:37Z aeth: And if you don't really have physics, that's a major plus. That makes things much easier.
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2018-01-21T05:35:58Z aeth: Think of game design like a graph. The x axis is similarity to an MMOFPS. The y axis is similarity to Dwarf Fortress. Difficulty to implement is roughly how far that game is from 0. 2048 is pretty close to 0 on that graph.
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2018-01-21T05:36:53Z aeth: (And DF-style complexity would be much easier to write in CL than MMOFPS-style complexity.)
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2018-01-21T06:01:05Z iqubic: Does Lisp have support for global variable?
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2018-01-21T06:04:00Z aeth: iqubic: Yes, but Lisp's global variables are special
2018-01-21T06:04:43Z aeth: Lisp's local variables are (by default) lexically scoped. They behave like you expect in most programming languages. Lisp's global variables are dynamically scoped (unless constant or implementation-specific). This is rare in languages these days.
2018-01-21T06:05:12Z iqubic: I don't know what dynamic scope means?
2018-01-21T06:05:54Z iqubic: I don't the difference between dynamic and lexical scoping in lisp
2018-01-21T06:05:55Z aeth: Dynamic scoping basically means that the variable refers to the most recent binding. So if you do (let ((*standard-output* some-new-stream)) (format t "Hello, world!~%")) it will print to some-new-stream even though you told format to use t (i.e. *standard-output*)
2018-01-21T06:06:30Z aeth: That's because you don't have to pass the variable in, it checks the most recent binding
2018-01-21T06:06:35Z iqubic: So dynamic scoping let's you shadow existing variables?
2018-01-21T06:06:53Z iqubic: If that's a term you understand.
2018-01-21T06:07:22Z iqubic: What is lexical binding?
2018-01-21T06:07:26Z aeth: Here's the exact definition of dynamic scoping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_(computer_science)#Dynamic_scoping
2018-01-21T06:09:01Z iqubic: What about lexical scoping?
2018-01-21T06:09:08Z aeth: The advantages of dynamic scoping are: (1) it's easy to implement, (2) you don't have to pass the variable deep down the call stack (so you could redefine *standard-output* at the start of your program and it will go to the right spot every time you say format t)
2018-01-21T06:09:38Z iqubic: Yeah. I get what you mean.
2018-01-21T06:09:47Z aeth: The disadvantages are: (1) it's slower (the compiler has less information because it's dynamic), (2) it often doesn't do what you want and it makes things harder to understand (you never actually know for sure where format t will print, especially in a multi-threaded application)
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2018-01-21T06:11:05Z iqubic: So what is lexical scoping now?
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2018-01-21T06:11:33Z aeth: lexical scoping deals with the concept of environments
2018-01-21T06:11:57Z aeth: You essentially go backwards up a list of environments, looking for the first one that defines foo
2018-01-21T06:12:04Z aeth: up to the global environment
2018-01-21T06:12:20Z iqubic: How does that differ from dynamic scoping?
2018-01-21T06:12:36Z aeth: here's an example of lexical scoping: (let ((foo 42)) (let ((foo 7)) (print foo)) (print foo))
2018-01-21T06:13:14Z iqubic: Let me guess. First 7 is printed, then 42?
2018-01-21T06:13:18Z aeth: right
2018-01-21T06:13:27Z aeth: here's another example of lexical scoping: (let ((foo 42)) (let ((bar 7)) (print foo)) (print foo))
2018-01-21T06:13:45Z aeth: it doesn't see foo in the bar environment, so it uses foo in the outer environment this time
2018-01-21T06:13:55Z aeth: s/the bar environment/the environment that only contains bar/
2018-01-21T06:14:00Z iqubic: So 7 is printed twice?
2018-01-21T06:14:04Z aeth: right
2018-01-21T06:14:13Z aeth: Actually, in this example, the same thing would happen with lexical and dynamic scoping
2018-01-21T06:14:17Z aeth: (I think)
2018-01-21T06:14:28Z iqubic: yeah.
2018-01-21T06:14:30Z aeth: But the way they look things up is different
2018-01-21T06:15:27Z aeth: (let ((foo 42)) (defun foobar () foo))
2018-01-21T06:15:55Z aeth: This creates a closure. Because the only function retrieves the value and no function sets the value, the compiler can turn this into a function that constantly returns 42.
2018-01-21T06:16:12Z aeth: This is very nice to have.
2018-01-21T06:17:33Z aeth: Let's do the same thing with a local special variable (even though special variables in CL are normally global, and you'll see why): (let ((*foo* 42)) (declare (special *foo*)) (defun barfoo () *foo*))
2018-01-21T06:17:47Z aeth: First note that barfoo cannot efficiently be compiled to return the constant 42
2018-01-21T06:17:52Z aeth: Now try to call barfoo
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2018-01-21T06:19:35Z aeth: (The *foo* convention is just so we know that they're special, btw. Your compiler might warn you if special variables do not have *s on either side.)
2018-01-21T06:20:46Z iqubic: I'm not sure what that will do.
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2018-01-21T06:21:17Z aeth: Try it in a REPL. Lisp is best learned that way.
2018-01-21T06:21:23Z aeth: If you don't have a REPL available I can tell you what happens
2018-01-21T06:23:46Z iqubic: *foo* is unbound. I get an error trying to call that function.
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2018-01-21T06:24:19Z aeth: right
2018-01-21T06:24:20Z iqubic: Why the hell is that?
2018-01-21T06:24:35Z aeth: It bound *foo* to 42 but *foo* only existed within that dynamic scope and no longer exists
2018-01-21T06:24:50Z aeth: That's one reason why dynamic/special variables are probably not what you want most of the time.
2018-01-21T06:25:05Z aeth: You probably want something like foobar, that constantly returns 42.
2018-01-21T06:25:14Z iqubic: How can I tell if a variable is dynamic vs lexical?
2018-01-21T06:25:54Z aeth: Let's get rid of the error with a global: (defparameter *foo* 7) (let ((*foo* 42)) (declare (special *foo*)) (print *foo*) (defun barfoo () *foo*)) ; I added a side effect print statement so you can see that *foo* is 42 inside the let
2018-01-21T06:26:26Z aeth: iqubic: By convention (and your compiler might warn if it violates the convention) special variables (the CL term for dynamic variables) always have the earmuffs
2018-01-21T06:26:33Z aeth: That's how *foo* differs from foo
2018-01-21T06:26:45Z aeth: If you don't do this, you're going to be surprised one day.
2018-01-21T06:27:08Z aeth: iqubic: Do you think the second (barfoo) will return 7 or 42?
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2018-01-21T06:28:25Z iqubic: I thought it was going to be 42.
2018-01-21T06:28:29Z iqubic: But it returns 7
2018-01-21T06:28:46Z iqubic: The print statement and the barfoo return value are different.
2018-01-21T06:29:28Z aeth: the print statement is within the let. If you did a (print (barfoo)) after you define barfoo, it will also be 42.
2018-01-21T06:29:55Z aeth: But once you're outside of the let, (barfoo) is looking at the global *foo*, it doesn't remember the environment it was defined in. It looks at a dynamic environment.
2018-01-21T06:29:57Z iqubic: But the defun is also inside the let.
2018-01-21T06:30:07Z aeth: You almost always want lexical variables.
2018-01-21T06:30:25Z iqubic: Is the defun inside the let too?
2018-01-21T06:30:53Z aeth: iqubic: Here, let me help you. Closures are what we're talking about. Another name for "closure" is "lexical closure".
2018-01-21T06:31:16Z iqubic: I don't know what a closure is.
2018-01-21T06:31:20Z aeth: The alternative name might help explain why foobar works as expected. It's using a lexical variable.
2018-01-21T06:31:47Z aeth: iqubic: This is a closure: (let ((foo 42)) (defun foobar () foo))
2018-01-21T06:32:33Z aeth: If you really want to have fun, let's play with this version: (let ((foo 42)) (defun foobar () foo) (defun foobar+1 () (incf foo)))
2018-01-21T06:32:57Z aeth: This was a major selling point of Lisp for a long time until everyone started copying it.
2018-01-21T06:33:57Z aeth: Note, though, that closures require the lexical variables to work. The normal ones, without the earmuffs.
2018-01-21T06:34:54Z iqubic: How the heck does that closure thing work?
2018-01-21T06:35:17Z aeth: It remembers the environment in which the function was created. This works for all functions, even anonymous (lambda) ones.
2018-01-21T06:35:32Z iqubic: The foobar+1 function is what I'm talking about.
2018-01-21T06:35:42Z aeth: Both functions remember the same environment.
2018-01-21T06:36:00Z aeth: Both refer to the foo in that environment because there's no foo in the local environment of either function.
2018-01-21T06:36:07Z iqubic: So both functions are defined inside the same let environment?
2018-01-21T06:36:10Z aeth: So they refer to the same foo, which is remembered
2018-01-21T06:36:12Z aeth: Yes.
2018-01-21T06:36:25Z aeth: You can even do it with anonymous functions instead of globally
2018-01-21T06:36:54Z beach: iqubic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_programming)
2018-01-21T06:37:08Z aeth: Lots of languages have this, but I never truly understood scope until I programmed in Lisp.
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2018-01-21T06:37:36Z iqubic: Alright: This isn't working.
2018-01-21T06:37:58Z iqubic: (let ((foo 1)) foobar)
2018-01-21T06:38:15Z aeth: What are you trying to do?
2018-01-21T06:39:36Z iqubic: I was trying to have a varible foo defined inside the closure, and outside the closure too.
2018-01-21T06:39:55Z iqubic: Works as expected. I just needed parens around foobar.
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2018-01-21T06:40:30Z aeth: right, if you were working with barfoo: (let ((*foo* 1)) (barfoo)) ; 1
2018-01-21T06:40:46Z aeth: But you probably want the lexical version, the foobar version. Much more useful.
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2018-01-21T06:40:59Z iqubic: (let ((foo 42)) (defun foobar () foo) (defun foobar+1 () (incf foo)))
2018-01-21T06:41:17Z iqubic: (let ((foo 1)) (foobar))
2018-01-21T06:41:32Z aeth: yes, that should work as expected.
2018-01-21T06:41:57Z iqubic: slime even warns me that (foo 1) is never used.
2018-01-21T06:42:06Z aeth: Everything is nice and contained, and you shouldn't have any surprises when working with lexical variables.
2018-01-21T06:42:29Z aeth: I mean, it might be a bit surprising that foo increments, but not too surprising if you look at the whole environment
2018-01-21T06:42:38Z iqubic: Yeah, that does what I want.
2018-01-21T06:43:17Z iqubic: yeah. Calling foobar+1 a couple times, then calling foobar shows a number bigger than 42.
2018-01-21T06:43:29Z iqubic: 42 being the starting value of foo.
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2018-01-21T06:44:34Z aeth: So it has to be at least 42.
2018-01-21T06:45:29Z aeth: iqubic: What do you think would happen if you incremented foo 50 quintillion times?
2018-01-21T06:45:44Z iqubic: Stack overflow?
2018-01-21T06:46:46Z aeth: Try it yourself with this shortcut: (+ (* 50 (expt 10 18)) 42)
2018-01-21T06:48:00Z iqubic: What should I call?
2018-01-21T06:48:23Z aeth: That should work in the REPL by itself
2018-01-21T06:48:58Z aeth: If you're correct, that should similarly stack overflow, instead of producing fifty quintillion forty-two
2018-01-21T06:49:22Z aeth: (or, integer overflow, actually)
2018-01-21T06:49:37Z iqubic: Nope. I get fifty quintillion forty-two
2018-01-21T06:50:30Z iqubic: Now, how long would it take to call foobar+1 that many times?
2018-01-21T06:50:32Z aeth: You can do this if you want to verify that it will hold in our other case: (let ((foo 42)) (defun foobar () foo) (defun foobar-inc (x) (incf foo x))) (foobar-inc (* 50 (expt 10 18))) (foobar)
2018-01-21T06:50:36Z aeth: That will save you time.
2018-01-21T06:51:27Z iqubic: Yup. That works.
2018-01-21T06:51:38Z iqubic: Nothing confusing about that.
2018-01-21T06:52:04Z aeth: In Common Lisp, integers are the mathematical integer. The efficient representation is called a fixnum and the inefficient representation is called a bignum. You will be able to go as large as you have memory.
2018-01-21T06:52:36Z aeth: If the compiler knows that it will stay a fixnum, it will be just as efficient as C. If you forget to do this, at least you still have an integer of some sort.
2018-01-21T06:53:03Z iqubic: That's wild.
2018-01-21T06:53:09Z aeth: In the foobar example, you probably want an integer and not a fixnum. So that's what you get.
2018-01-21T06:53:18Z iqubic: Yeah.
2018-01-21T06:53:27Z iqubic: So closures are cool.
2018-01-21T06:53:51Z iqubic: Have any other cool closure demonstrations for me? Or was that it?
2018-01-21T06:54:14Z aeth: Most cool uses of closures use anonymous functions, called lambda. That way, you don't have to do everything globally.
2018-01-21T06:54:21Z aeth: Do you know about lambdas yet?
2018-01-21T06:54:39Z iqubic: I know what a lambda is.
2018-01-21T06:55:14Z iqubic: they show up in just about any modern programming language.
2018-01-21T06:56:23Z aeth: Let's make a foo factory: (defun foo (&optional (foo 42)) (values (lambda () foo) (lambda (&optional (x 1)) (incf foo x))))
2018-01-21T06:56:34Z aeth: Now the starting value can change.
2018-01-21T06:56:55Z aeth: If you don't give it an argument, it will be 42
2018-01-21T06:57:25Z aeth: You can make it more robust like this: (defun foo (&optional (foo 42)) (check-type foo integer) (values (lambda () foo) (lambda (&optional (x 1)) (incf foo x))))
2018-01-21T06:57:41Z aeth: Now you know it'll always be something incrementable
2018-01-21T06:58:52Z aeth: You can bind both functions with multiple-value-bind. You can call these functions with funcall. You can do something like this now: (multiple-value-bind (foobar foobar-inc) (foo 42) (funcall foobar-inc) (funcall foobar))
2018-01-21T06:59:25Z aeth: I wish we still had lisp paste because line breaks probably would help here now that things are getting more complicated.
2018-01-21T06:59:55Z iqubic: So what did that first defun do.
2018-01-21T07:00:03Z iqubic: the one that defined foo.
2018-01-21T07:00:17Z aeth: The first defun is the same as the second, except the second also checks that foo is an integer, so the user doesn't give it a bogus value
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2018-01-21T07:00:32Z iqubic: How does that first thing work then?
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2018-01-21T07:00:39Z aeth: The defun creates an environment with foo, just like our let, except it lets you define it
2018-01-21T07:00:55Z iqubic: How do I call the functions in the environment?
2018-01-21T07:00:56Z aeth: You can say (foo 37) or (foo -2)
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2018-01-21T07:01:42Z iqubic: but how do I increment that value?
2018-01-21T07:01:44Z aeth: Common Lisp has multiple namespaces. That's why both the function and the variable can use the name foo. That means, though, that to call the anonymous functions you just created, you need to use funcall to tell it to treat a variable namespaced thing like a function
2018-01-21T07:02:01Z aeth: So you now have to (funcall foobar-inc) instead of (foobar-inc)
2018-01-21T07:02:09Z aeth: You also have to define them somewhere.
2018-01-21T07:02:50Z aeth: That's what the multiple-value-bind is for. There are two return values because there are two functions. It's just like let, except it defines it from multiple return values, e.g. this foo will start at -1: (multiple-value-bind (foobar foobar-inc) (foo -1) (funcall foobar-inc) (funcall foobar))
2018-01-21T07:03:42Z aeth: If you don't like multiple return values you can always put them in a list, vector, standard-object, struct, hash-table, etc. of course.
2018-01-21T07:03:48Z aeth: Functions are first class here.
2018-01-21T07:03:54Z iqubic: But it doesn't return the foo environment does it?
2018-01-21T07:04:08Z iqubic: the multiple-value-bind thing.
2018-01-21T07:04:34Z aeth: The foo environment is stored away in some place that foobar and foobar-inc (formerly anonymous functions, now named) can access
2018-01-21T07:04:51Z aeth: So you're emulating objects with functions.
2018-01-21T07:05:08Z aeth: (You don't have to do this. Common Lisp has an object system.)
2018-01-21T07:06:06Z aeth: The function foo should probably be called make-foo because it's making our foo.
2018-01-21T07:06:33Z iqubic: but once I make a foo thing, I can no longer seem to call the functions related to foo.
2018-01-21T07:06:46Z aeth: You need to bind them somehow in order to name them
2018-01-21T07:07:30Z iqubic: How can I do taht?
2018-01-21T07:07:32Z aeth: There are several ways to get multiple values.
2018-01-21T07:07:55Z iqubic: multiple-value-bind didn't seem to work.
2018-01-21T07:07:58Z aeth: One is multiple-value-bind. Another is multiple-value-list, e.g. (multiple-value-list (foo))
2018-01-21T07:08:07Z aeth: Why isn't multiple-value-bind working?
2018-01-21T07:09:39Z aeth: iqubic: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html
2018-01-21T07:09:45Z aeth: iqubic: You probably want to read the section called "multiple values" here.
2018-01-21T07:11:05Z iqubic: So I ran your multiple-value-bind sexp. The one that create a foo starting at -1
2018-01-21T07:11:09Z iqubic: that works.
2018-01-21T07:11:38Z iqubic: I then try (funcall foobar-inc).
2018-01-21T07:11:52Z aeth: foobar-inc is local to the binding
2018-01-21T07:11:59Z iqubic: It fails because the type of foobar-inc is UNDEFINED VARIBLE
2018-01-21T07:13:03Z phoe: for correctness: there's no Common Lisp type called "undefined variable"
2018-01-21T07:13:53Z iqubic: Right. slime is complaining that foobar-inc is unbound.
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2018-01-21T07:14:14Z aeth: If you want to use foobar-inc globally, you need to bind it globally
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2018-01-21T07:15:14Z iqubic: So multiple-values-bind makes a new environment?
2018-01-21T07:15:28Z iqubic: That's what I was missing.
2018-01-21T07:15:39Z aeth: (multiple-value-bind (foobar foobar-inc) (foo -1) (setf (symbol-function 'foobar) foobar) (setf (symbol-function 'foobar-inc) foobar-inc))
2018-01-21T07:15:54Z iqubic: I'm not going to do that right now.
2018-01-21T07:16:02Z iqubic: I get how this works.
2018-01-21T07:16:08Z aeth: You can use symbol-function to define them globally, and then you can use (foobar) and (foobar-inc) as if they were always there
2018-01-21T07:16:15Z aeth: You only need funcall when they're local like that.
2018-01-21T07:16:37Z iqubic: Any other cool things like this, or not?
2018-01-21T07:16:58Z aeth: Well, the essential pattern is putting a let over a lambda.
2018-01-21T07:17:07Z aeth: Someone wrote a book on that. https://letoverlambda.com/
2018-01-21T07:17:39Z iqubic: Yeah, there's a book shop near me that specializes in technical books like this.
2018-01-21T07:18:00Z iqubic: I've seen that on their shelves before.
2018-01-21T07:18:15Z aeth: Afaik, it's very advanced.
2018-01-21T07:18:19Z iqubic: But there was no let in your foo maker though.
2018-01-21T07:18:38Z aeth: iqubic: The defun implicitly has a let
2018-01-21T07:18:47Z aeth: or at least, you can think of it that way
2018-01-21T07:18:53Z aeth: multiple-value-bind is the same way
2018-01-21T07:19:08Z aeth: They create environments just like let would.
2018-01-21T07:19:10Z iqubic: So your point is making a closure around a lambda/
2018-01-21T07:19:22Z iqubic: That's the key point?
2018-01-21T07:19:29Z aeth: yes
2018-01-21T07:19:36Z aeth: let itself can be defined in terms of a lambda, actually!
2018-01-21T07:19:42Z iqubic: Closures are really cool.
2018-01-21T07:19:56Z iqubic: Is let a macro in lisp?
2018-01-21T07:20:02Z aeth: yes, I think
2018-01-21T07:20:29Z aeth: It's probably handled specially, but in some Schemes, let might be defined as a macro over lambda.
2018-01-21T07:21:37Z phoe: LET isn't a macro.
2018-01-21T07:21:40Z phoe: It's a special form.
2018-01-21T07:22:02Z phoe: But an implementation is permitted to implement it as a macro, AFAIK.
2018-01-21T07:22:09Z iqubic: For built in stuff I don't care whether a thing is a function, macro, or special form, because they all work mostly the same.
2018-01-21T07:22:12Z beach: phoe: Correct.
2018-01-21T07:22:29Z iqubic: However when writting I'll need to know the distiction.
2018-01-21T07:22:38Z beach: phoe: "special operator" is more accurate.  A form like (LET ...) is a special form.
2018-01-21T07:22:39Z aeth: iqubic: Roughly: (funcall (lambda (x) (format t "~D~%" x)) 42) <=> (let ((x 42)) (format t "~D~%" x))
2018-01-21T07:22:58Z aeth: iqubic: In some Schemes, the Scheme equivalent of that might be exactly true. I'm sure someone here can tell me why that's not exactly true in CL.
2018-01-21T07:23:03Z iqubic: Yeah, I get that.
2018-01-21T07:23:14Z aeth: Only one form is strictly necessary if you're into minimalism
2018-01-21T07:23:26Z aeth: CL people are more into efficiency than minimalism, though
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2018-01-21T07:24:33Z phoe: beach: thanks.
2018-01-21T07:25:01Z aeth: iqubic: multiple-value-bind actually uses a very similar principle in its implementation, except with multiple-value-call instead of funcall.
2018-01-21T07:25:09Z aeth: At least in SBCL, it's implemented this way.
2018-01-21T07:25:27Z iqubic: I'm not too worried about the differences.
2018-01-21T07:25:40Z aeth: It multiple-value-calls a lambda to produce essentially the same result as a let
2018-01-21T07:29:45Z aeth: iqubic: A practical example of a let over a lambda is in the utility library alexandria. curry. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/e5c54bc30b0887c237bde2827036d17315f88737/functions.lisp#L114-155
2018-01-21T07:30:39Z aeth: It lets you do this to do partial function application: (mapcar (alexandria:curry #'+ 10) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) => (11 12 13 14 15)
2018-01-21T07:31:26Z iqubic: How could you do that without curry?
2018-01-21T07:31:40Z iqubic: Isn't that like partial function application?
2018-01-21T07:31:49Z aeth: It lets you do this to do partial function application: (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ x 10)) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) => (11 12 13 14 15)
2018-01-21T07:32:17Z iqubic: I see how that works.
2018-01-21T07:32:22Z aeth: curry just creates the lambda for you and makes it a lot more concise (especially if you import curry so you don't see the prefix)
2018-01-21T07:32:33Z iqubic: That's basically just a simple let over lambda.
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2018-01-21T07:33:37Z phoe: yep
2018-01-21T07:34:01Z phoe: or rather, just lambda. no let required there.
2018-01-21T07:34:18Z phoe: since you are not closing over any variables. 10 is constant in there.
2018-01-21T07:34:24Z aeth: well, it's the implicit arguments again
2018-01-21T07:34:30Z aeth: a lot of the time the let is just not there
2018-01-21T07:34:36Z iqubic: Why is the function called mapcar, and not just map?
2018-01-21T07:34:38Z aeth: you can use the function arguments
2018-01-21T07:34:43Z phoe: iqubic: MAP is another function.
2018-01-21T07:34:46Z aeth: iqubic: map works on all sequences, mapcar only works on lists and returns a list
2018-01-21T07:34:56Z aeth: (map 'list ...) is roughly equivalent
2018-01-21T07:35:09Z aeth: Except you're able to use any sequence with map, even if the result type is a list
2018-01-21T07:35:11Z phoe: MAPCAR works on lists, applying the function to each CAR of the list. hence, MAP-CAR.
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2018-01-21T07:37:14Z aeth: The worst part about CL is the names. CL chose to be compatible with much older Lisps rather than break compatibility (Scheme broke compatibility). But, hey, I'll take ugly names over many other flaws a language could have.
2018-01-21T07:37:27Z aeth: And ugly names are probably better than not being compatible with older software, too.
2018-01-21T07:38:29Z aeth: Whenever there was a design decision CL chose the uglier, more practical decision. It's designed for industrial use.
2018-01-21T07:39:46Z aeth: Most of the names are fine, but some older things (including mapcar) don't really follow the language's idiomatic naming style because they predate it.
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2018-01-21T07:55:29Z Shinmera: CL didn't choose to be compatible. Compatibility is the reason it exists.
2018-01-21T07:56:47Z phoe: so it chose to exist
2018-01-21T07:57:01Z beach: A wise choice.
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2018-01-21T07:58:53Z phoe: ...for some reason, I wanted to google "a wise choice".
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2018-01-21T07:59:04Z phoe: The result was... dissatisfying. https://kek.gg/i/35_WXQ.png
2018-01-21T07:59:24Z beach: Heh.
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2018-01-21T07:59:51Z Shinmera: Sign me right up
2018-01-21T08:00:47Z holycow: heh
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2018-01-21T08:03:16Z aeth: Shinmera: Wait, are you telling me that the point of Common Lisp is to be the common Lisp?
2018-01-21T08:04:02Z Shinmera: It's common between the implementations that funded it, yeah.
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2018-01-21T10:06:37Z beach: How can I implement the standard method combination if I have no evaluator (no compiler, no interpreter)?
2018-01-21T10:06:54Z beach: I have some ideas, but I would like to hear other suggestions.
2018-01-21T10:07:27Z beach: You can assume that the methods themselves exist and have been loaded as binary code from (say) a file.
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2018-01-21T10:17:06Z phoe: You can funcall the methods, correct?
2018-01-21T10:17:33Z beach: Yes.
2018-01-21T10:17:42Z beach: The METHOD-FUNCTIONs to be precise.
2018-01-21T10:17:53Z phoe: Yes, that is what I meant.
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2018-01-21T10:19:47Z phoe: Why would you need an evaluator/compiler/interpreter for that?
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2018-01-21T10:19:53Z phoe: clhs 7.6.6.2
2018-01-21T10:19:53Z specbot: Standard Method Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
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2018-01-21T10:20:26Z beach: Well, typically you would create the CALL-NEXT-METHOD function on the fly.
2018-01-21T10:21:01Z beach: And you would turn the applicable methods into an effective method which is a function that needs to be created at runtime.
2018-01-21T10:21:08Z phoe: You need to build the lists of methods in most-specific order anyway, right?
2018-01-21T10:21:12Z beach: Right.
2018-01-21T10:21:26Z phoe: Your CALL-NEXT-METHOD may simply invoke a method that is found via some dynamic variable.
2018-01-21T10:21:36Z beach: Exactly my thinking.
2018-01-21T10:21:43Z beach: So call-next-method would be a global function.
2018-01-21T10:22:15Z phoe: If you have no compiler, then it would need to be.
2018-01-21T10:22:28Z phoe: Because I think that you need a compiler to create local functions in methods.
2018-01-21T10:22:30Z phoe: ...or do you?
2018-01-21T10:23:09Z beach: As long as the code is static, I don't need the compiler at runtime.
2018-01-21T10:23:11Z phoe: If you know that you will want to have a CALL-NEXT-METHOD local function, then you can take a step back and, whenever you compile the methods, simply force them to have an ignorable local function CALL-NEXT-METHOD that refers to some dynamic variable and expects it to be bound.
2018-01-21T10:23:24Z beach: So I can create a closure from some compiled code, no problem.
2018-01-21T10:23:35Z phoe: So CALL-NEXT-METHOD does not need to be a global function.
2018-01-21T10:23:44Z phoe: That's what I understand, at least.
2018-01-21T10:23:52Z beach: That might work, but it is OK if it is global.
2018-01-21T10:23:56Z phoe: Okay.
2018-01-21T10:23:57Z beach: It is only for bootstrapping.
2018-01-21T10:24:07Z phoe: Ooh. In this case, choose the simplest solution.
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2018-01-21T10:24:36Z beach: Related question: Suppose I have a (possibly empty) list of :BEFORE methods, a (possibly empty) list of :AFTER methods, a (possibly empty) list of :AROUND methods, and a (possibly empty) list of primary method.  Can I, without any other information, always know what to do when call-next-method is called?
2018-01-21T10:24:44Z beach: I am thinking this:...
2018-01-21T10:24:47Z phoe: If it's for bootstrapping, the end user will not be able to notice that they have a function that is global but should have been local.
2018-01-21T10:25:04Z phoe: beach: let's look at the algorithm,n.
2018-01-21T10:25:13Z beach: 1. If the list of :AROUND methods is not empty, pop the first one off and call it.
2018-01-21T10:25:47Z beach: 2. If the list of :AROUND methods is empty, but the list of :BEFORE methods is not, then call all the :BEFORE methods in that order, and then set the list to '().
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2018-01-21T10:26:17Z beach: 3. If the list of :BEFORE methods is also empty, but the list of primary methods is not, then pop the first primary method off and call it.
2018-01-21T10:26:40Z phoe: The algorithm in CLHS seems well-defined. Your code should be able to always guess what to do next.
2018-01-21T10:27:03Z beach: Yes, but I am thinking about how to do it without remembering what I just did.
2018-01-21T10:27:16Z beach: 4. If the list of primary methods is also empty, but the list of :AFTER methods is not, then call the methods on the list in that order.
2018-01-21T10:27:30Z beach: Ah, no, that's wrong.
2018-01-21T10:27:42Z Shinmera: c-n-m with no next method should error
2018-01-21T10:27:44Z phoe: You need to call the most specific primary method.
2018-01-21T10:27:49Z beach: Yes, yes.
2018-01-21T10:28:04Z phoe: If the list is empty, you need to call NO-NEXT-METHOD
2018-01-21T10:28:05Z beach: But I think I can find something that works.
2018-01-21T10:28:12Z phoe: I think so, too.
2018-01-21T10:28:13Z Shinmera: You need to call after once the primary method returns.
2018-01-21T10:28:13Z beach: Yes, absolutely.
2018-01-21T10:28:22Z beach: Right.
2018-01-21T10:28:23Z Shinmera: So call them in the same line as the :before s
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2018-01-21T10:28:36Z beach: I think it is doable.
2018-01-21T10:29:00Z phoe: Let's assume that you have *PRIMARY-METHODS* that holds the list of all primary methods for a function.
2018-01-21T10:29:13Z beach: Sounds good.
2018-01-21T10:29:23Z phoe: grab the CAR of this list, rebind the variable to the CDR, call the method-function of the CAR.
2018-01-21T10:29:41Z phoe: This way, CALL-NEXT-METHOD may refer to the next method by grabbing the CAR of *PRIMARY-METHODS*.
2018-01-21T10:29:46Z phoe: And so on, and so on.
2018-01-21T10:30:05Z beach: Yes, but you need to take the auxiliary methods into account as well.
2018-01-21T10:30:10Z beach: But I think I can do it.
2018-01-21T10:30:24Z phoe: Auxiliary? What do you mean?
2018-01-21T10:30:30Z beach: non-primary.
2018-01-21T10:30:34Z beach: Isn't that the term?
2018-01-21T10:30:36Z phoe: You don't need to care about the :BEFORE and :AFTER ones, they're called elsewhere.
2018-01-21T10:30:46Z phoe: You only need to care about :AROUND, I think.
2018-01-21T10:31:22Z phoe: CALL-NEXT-METHOD can check on *AROUND-METHODS* if the CAR of this list "matches" the CAR of *PRIMARY-METHODS*.
2018-01-21T10:31:28Z phoe: "Matches", I mean, the specialization.
2018-01-21T10:31:38Z phoe: If yes, it calls the :AROUND method; if not, it calls the primary method.
2018-01-21T10:32:19Z phoe: I actually wonder if you can do a trick like that...
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2018-01-21T10:32:32Z phoe: Let's assume you have methods FOO, BAR, BAZ, QUUX, in this order of specificness.
2018-01-21T10:32:37Z phoe: BAR and BAZ have :AROUND methods.
2018-01-21T10:32:49Z phoe: Can your *PRIMARY-METHODS* look like:
2018-01-21T10:33:00Z beach: phoe: You are speaking nonsense.
2018-01-21T10:33:04Z phoe: wait.
2018-01-21T10:33:08Z phoe: am I?
2018-01-21T10:33:16Z beach: phoe: Start with all the applicable methods.
2018-01-21T10:33:38Z beach: some of which are primary, some of which are auxiliary.  No :AROUND method is attached to another method.
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2018-01-21T10:35:17Z beach: OK, let me see if I can get it right this time...
2018-01-21T10:35:18Z phoe: Yes.
2018-01-21T10:35:55Z phoe: Auxiliary methods in the standard method combination are :BEFORE, :AFTER, :AROUND.
2018-01-21T10:36:04Z beach: Given four lists *AROUND-METHODS* *BEFORE-METHODS* *PRIMARY-METHODS* and *AFTER-METHODS*...
2018-01-21T10:36:40Z beach: To invoke the effective method, I actually call the global function CALL-NEXT-METHOD, and that one does the following...
2018-01-21T10:37:05Z beach: 1. If *AROUND-METHODS* is not empty, it pops off the first one and calls it.
2018-01-21T10:38:06Z beach: 2. If *AROUND-METHODS* is empty, it calls all the methods in *BEFORE-METHODS*, then sets that list to the empty list, pops the first primary method off and calls it.
2018-01-21T10:38:35Z Shinmera: beach: You have to check whether there's a primary method at all first, and if not, error.
2018-01-21T10:38:42Z beach: Sure, fine.
2018-01-21T10:39:17Z phoe: Shinmera: s/error/call NO-NEXT-METHOD/
2018-01-21T10:39:18Z beach: 3. If both *AROUND-METHODS* and *BEFORE-METHODS* are empty, then if *PRIMARY-METHODS* is empty, then error.
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2018-01-21T10:39:38Z Shinmera: phoe: Right
2018-01-21T10:39:47Z phoe: beach: actually it's a bit more complicated. There can be :BEFORE and :AFTER methods.
2018-01-21T10:39:52Z beach: 4. If *PRIMARY-METHODS* has a single entry on it, then pop it off, call it, and then call all the methods in *AFTER-METHODS*.
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2018-01-21T10:40:05Z beach: phoe: I just took that into account.
2018-01-21T10:40:07Z beach: I hope.
2018-01-21T10:40:12Z phoe: But if there is no primary method when there are after/or before methods, then it is an error.
2018-01-21T10:40:28Z phoe: (defmethod foo :before ()) (foo) is an error if there's no (defmethod foo ()).
2018-01-21T10:40:49Z beach: Since this is bootstrapping, we can assume that the code is correct, so that CALL-NEXT-METHOD is not called unless it is allowed.
2018-01-21T10:41:01Z phoe: Okay. Good.
2018-01-21T10:41:57Z beach: I think it works.
2018-01-21T10:42:15Z beach: It will be slow, but it will work.
2018-01-21T10:42:28Z phoe: > 4. If *PRIMARY-METHODS* has a single entry on it,
2018-01-21T10:42:33Z phoe: It doesn't need to have a single entry.
2018-01-21T10:42:38Z phoe: It must simply be non-empty.
2018-01-21T10:42:53Z beach: Correct, but if it has a single entry, it is the last one, so the after methods should be called.
2018-01-21T10:43:14Z beach: Hmm, yes, there is something fishy there.
2018-01-21T10:43:18Z phoe: You don't call *all* primary methods though.
2018-01-21T10:43:22Z phoe: Only the most specific one.
2018-01-21T10:43:34Z beach: Yes, yes.  I need to think a bit more.
2018-01-21T10:43:35Z phoe: You only call the first one - it is the method itself that may call next methods if it wants to.
2018-01-21T10:43:51Z phoe: You pop the first element from *PRIMARY-METHODS* and call it.
2018-01-21T10:44:17Z phoe: If the method wants to call more, then it must invoke CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside its body.
2018-01-21T10:44:22Z beach: When it returns, call the after methods.
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2018-01-21T10:44:25Z phoe: Yes.
2018-01-21T10:44:28Z beach: right.
2018-01-21T10:44:35Z beach: I think I can figure it out from here.
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2018-01-21T10:44:48Z beach: Thanks for the help phoe and Shinmera.
2018-01-21T10:45:03Z beach: Amusing little problem.
2018-01-21T10:45:05Z phoe: No problem! Hope that I helped more than I confused things.
2018-01-21T10:45:06Z phoe: Hm?
2018-01-21T10:45:24Z beach: It always helps to see more angles of the problem.
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2018-01-21T10:46:11Z beach: Anyway, lunchtime.  I'll be back later.
2018-01-21T10:46:28Z phoe: Bon appetit!
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2018-01-21T10:50:31Z pjb: aeth: the best thing in CL are the names! If you're not happy with them, you can define your own in your own package!  (:use "AETH-LISP") !
2018-01-21T10:51:39Z aeth: pjb: I'd considering doing it, but just for the arithmetic.
2018-01-21T10:52:28Z aeth: pjb: thanks to specialization-store we now have a (semi-portable) way to easily define type-generic functions on numbers and sequences that behave like #'+ and #'map
2018-01-21T10:53:12Z aeth: Which means arithmetic functions could be defined to support inline sequence functions and hopefully have no performance penalty with the existing arithemtic functions!
2018-01-21T10:53:39Z aeth: stuff like (* scalar matrix)
2018-01-21T10:54:02Z aeth: or (* matrix vector)
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2018-01-21T10:54:57Z aeth: It might be very tricky to do that with more than two arguments, though
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2018-01-21T10:56:03Z pjb: Well arithmetic with more than two arguments has the inconvenient that the dispatch has to be done by analysing the whole argument list types.
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2018-01-21T10:56:58Z aeth: I think another problem is that arithmetic with vectors/matrices would cons heavily unless there was something fancy going on.
2018-01-21T10:57:04Z pjb: Well, AFAIK the standard would allow (reduce op arguments), but you'll get more precise results by sorting out the arguments.
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2018-01-21T10:58:26Z aeth: (Also, matrices would have to be represented with 2D arrays, not sequences, or else there's no way to tell them apart from vectors, at least as I just described things.)
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2018-01-21T11:08:17Z aeth: pjb: I think you just pointed out why this wouldn't work, though. Argument lists can be as close to infinite as 64-bits allows (probably the most positive 63-bit fixnum value)
2018-01-21T11:09:20Z aeth: reduce could work but it wouldn't be interesting/efficient.
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2018-01-21T14:10:39Z flip214: using CLON for argument parsing I came upon this problem: a STROPT (say, "-l") has value NIL if the cmdline argument  has a "-" in front.
2018-01-21T14:10:52Z flip214: Eg. "-l -1" means NIL, while "-l-1" works as expected.
2018-01-21T14:11:16Z flip214: Is that on purpose? Can I tell CLON that the string "option" isn't optional but required?
2018-01-21T14:11:38Z flip214: My use case is getting an integer from the command line - but negative values don't work so well, as you can see.
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2018-01-21T14:28:33Z JuanDaugherty: funny that there are 3 clons
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2018-01-21T14:29:21Z JuanDaugherty: (aware you mean the 'option nuker')
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2018-01-21T14:33:14Z jackdaniel: it should be just "l" for stropt, clon does recognize - convention
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2018-01-21T14:34:10Z jackdaniel: so (getopt :short-name "l" :long-name "long-flag")
2018-01-21T14:34:16Z jackdaniel: will pick either -l or --long-flag
2018-01-21T14:34:19Z jackdaniel: flip214: ↑
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2018-01-21T14:36:09Z flip214: jackdaniel: no, the problem is that passing "-l -1" on the command line looks like the two options "-l" and "-1" to CLON
2018-01-21T14:36:19Z flip214: so I can't easily pass in negative numbers
2018-01-21T14:36:56Z jackdaniel: ah. what about --long-option=-3 ?
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2018-01-21T14:37:39Z flip214: jackdaniel: yeah, of course, if the user is reading the documentation.
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2018-01-21T14:37:58Z flip214: but I'm worried that "-l 1" works, "-l1" works, "-l-1" works, but "-l -1" doesn't.
2018-01-21T14:38:03Z flip214: that's too irregular for me.
2018-01-21T14:38:28Z jackdaniel: I'd have to dig the clon manual to check this up
2018-01-21T14:39:08Z jackdaniel: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon/enduser/Valued-Options.html#Valued-Options
2018-01-21T14:39:16Z jackdaniel: you have to make option argument value mandatory
2018-01-21T14:39:22Z jackdaniel: if you don't want to be forced to "stick it"
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2018-01-21T14:39:40Z jackdaniel: afk for a while (sorry)
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2018-01-21T14:46:43Z flip214: thanks for the pointer, found :ARGUMENT-TYPE :MANDATORY
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2018-01-21T15:08:32Z KZiemian: hello world
2018-01-21T15:08:58Z KZiemian: in comments in one lisp file I find
2018-01-21T15:09:01Z KZiemian: "A STRING represents leaf data"
2018-01-21T15:09:05Z KZiemian: what is a leaf data?
2018-01-21T15:10:09Z phoe: KZiemian: which file?
2018-01-21T15:10:28Z KZiemian: ccldoc representantion.lisp
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2018-01-21T15:11:25Z phoe: KZiemian: I think rme on #ccl will be able to answer better
2018-01-21T15:11:29Z phoe: he knows the ccldoc internals.
2018-01-21T15:11:52Z KZiemian: phoe: I just need to know what leaf data mean in general
2018-01-21T15:11:55Z KZiemian: basic data?
2018-01-21T15:12:02Z KZiemian: most primitive type?
2018-01-21T15:14:17Z phoe: KZiemian: I think it refers to data stored in a tree structure, where you have nodes that can point to other nodes without cycles, and leaves are the nodes that do not point to anything.
2018-01-21T15:14:38Z KZiemian: yes, that make perfect sens
2018-01-21T15:14:43Z KZiemian: thank you!
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2018-01-21T15:36:33Z pagnol: there's a library I would like to use (https://github.com/heegaiximephoomeeghahyaiseekh/lisp-binary) but for some reason ql:quickload gets stuck during compilation
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2018-01-21T15:42:34Z phoe: pagnol: SBCL?
2018-01-21T15:42:42Z pagnol: phoe, oh yes, sorry
2018-01-21T15:42:43Z phoe: see the *inferior-lisp* buffer if you have run out of memory.
2018-01-21T15:42:54Z phoe: SBCL does not like this system and freaks out while compiling it.
2018-01-21T15:43:14Z pagnol: Heap exhausted during garbage collection....
2018-01-21T15:43:22Z pagnol: hmm
2018-01-21T15:43:44Z pagnol: is this a problem specific to this library?
2018-01-21T15:43:55Z phoe: pagnol: yes.
2018-01-21T15:44:05Z phoe: ask #sbcl if they have been able to fix it.
2018-01-21T15:44:07Z phoe: just in case:
2018-01-21T15:44:10Z phoe: what is your SBCL version?
2018-01-21T15:44:13Z pagnol: 1.3.1
2018-01-21T15:44:17Z phoe: oh gods
2018-01-21T15:44:23Z phoe: upgrade
2018-01-21T15:44:27Z phoe: *really* upgrade
2018-01-21T15:44:31Z pagnol: ok
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2018-01-21T15:44:46Z pagnol: it's the one I got by running apt-get install..
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2018-01-21T15:45:02Z phoe: pagnol: debian stable?
2018-01-21T15:45:05Z pagnol: yes
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2018-01-21T15:45:12Z phoe: geez, it really serves ancient packages at times.
2018-01-21T15:45:28Z phoe: AFAIK you can pull single packages out of unstable.
2018-01-21T15:45:36Z phoe: you can use this to pull SBCL.
2018-01-21T15:45:43Z pagnol: alright, I'll upgrade and see if it works
2018-01-21T15:46:03Z zazzerino: pagnol: I'm also on debian stable, and would recommend https://github.com/roswell/roswell for this task
2018-01-21T15:46:12Z phoe: I actually use roswell, too.
2018-01-21T15:46:35Z phoe: i do not require much from it though, to me, it's a pretty nice SBCL installer. (:
2018-01-21T15:46:46Z pagnol: zazzerino, ah thanks!
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2018-01-21T15:52:20Z pagnol: phoe, so apparently you used this library yourself in the past?
2018-01-21T15:54:35Z phoe: pagnol: (:
2018-01-21T15:54:43Z phoe: I *tried* using it.
2018-01-21T15:55:07Z pagnol: ah, so this issue actually prevented you from using it?
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2018-01-21T15:56:00Z phoe: yep. AFAIK there are workarounds, look on the github page of the project, in the issues.
2018-01-21T15:57:59Z zazzerino: Looks like an interesting library. I tried loading it in quicklisp and have the exact same issue (quickload hanging while loading [package lisp-binary]. Sorry, I don't have a solution, but it's not just your machine!
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2018-01-21T15:58:34Z zazzerino: Also, looks like the main dev opened an issue about a month ago with the title "Dependencies are fucked" lol
2018-01-21T15:59:20Z pagnol: I saw this issue too
2018-01-21T15:59:26Z phoe: zazzerino: it's not QL hanging. It's SBCL running out of heap space while compiling it.
2018-01-21T15:59:32Z phoe: (AFAIK)
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2018-01-21T15:59:50Z pagnol: and apparently it was removed from quicklisp
2018-01-21T16:00:05Z phoe: yes, because of this.
2018-01-21T16:00:08Z pagnol: ah
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2018-01-21T16:00:18Z pagnol: duh
2018-01-21T16:00:55Z zazzerino: phoe: yeah, I think you're right. I just meant "ql:quickload" was the function I was running to load the library (which was in my local-projects dir)
2018-01-21T16:01:50Z phoe: yep.
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2018-01-21T16:10:09Z iqubic: What's going on here guys?
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2018-01-21T16:12:35Z pagnol: nice... with sbcl 1.4.3 I get the exact same error
2018-01-21T16:15:00Z zazzerino: maybe try ccl? if you've installed roswell it should be as easy as "ros install ccl" and I think "ros use ccl"
2018-01-21T16:17:33Z beach: iqubic: What do you mean?
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2018-01-21T16:25:05Z ebzzry: I’m curious, do people actually use COMPLEMENT?
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2018-01-21T16:25:25Z beach: No. :)
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2018-01-21T16:26:42Z beach: ebzzry: When it looked like the xxx-if-not family was going to be removed (because of being deprecated) complement would have been more useful.  But then, most people now agree that they are undeprecated.
2018-01-21T16:27:45Z ebzzry: Hm. I thought the same. I got reminded by it because of :test and :test-not.
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2018-01-21T16:40:08Z ebzzry: Why is #'defmacro permitted in SBCL?
2018-01-21T16:40:35Z phoe: ebzzry: implementation-dependent
2018-01-21T16:40:38Z phoe: it is undefined.
2018-01-21T16:40:45Z phoe: so the implementation may do whatever it feels like.
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2018-01-21T16:40:57Z phoe: but #'foo where FOO is a macro is not standard Common Lisp.
2018-01-21T16:40:57Z Xach: phoe: not exactly!
2018-01-21T16:41:01Z phoe: Xach: gasp
2018-01-21T16:41:03Z Xach: An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior.
2018-01-21T16:41:07Z Xach: (quoting the spec)
2018-01-21T16:41:20Z phoe: oh, right. this one.
2018-01-21T16:41:36Z ebzzry: hm
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2018-01-21T16:43:38Z ebzzry: gcl segfaults with #'defmacro
2018-01-21T16:43:49Z phoe: don't use gcl
2018-01-21T16:43:55Z phoe: it's not even fully conformant.
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2018-01-21T16:47:49Z ebzzry: what can you say about clasp?
2018-01-21T16:48:13Z beach: ebzzry: Ask drmeister.
2018-01-21T16:48:21Z phoe: or #clasp
2018-01-21T16:48:22Z beach: He would be the first one to know.
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2018-01-21T16:49:02Z ebzzry: ok
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2018-01-21T16:59:12Z iqubic: What is clasp?
2018-01-21T16:59:30Z phoe: Common Lisp implementation that aims for C++ interoperability.
2018-01-21T16:59:38Z phoe: #clasp will tell you more.
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2018-01-21T17:00:17Z pjb: ebzzry: you have to distinguish two cases: #'foo where foo is a symbol exported from CL and #'foo where foo is not exported from CL.
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2018-01-21T17:03:29Z ebzzry: pjb: where is that explained?
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2018-01-21T17:03:42Z pjb: ebzzry: sections 11.1.2
2018-01-21T17:03:49Z ebzzry: pjb: ok
2018-01-21T17:04:02Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2
2018-01-21T17:04:02Z specbot: Standardized Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ab.htm
2018-01-21T17:04:59Z pjb: 11.1.2.1.2 points 2 and 3 (the exceptions deal only with flet/labels), mean that the implementation is free to fbind symbols exported from CL.
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2018-01-21T17:06:18Z ebzzry:  11.1.2.1.2 yes
2018-01-21T17:06:45Z pagnol: phoe, zazzerino, jackdaniel on #sbcl suggested I run sbcl with --dynamic-space-size=8192, and it worked
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2018-01-21T17:07:16Z phoe: oh!
2018-01-21T17:07:17Z jackdaniel: actually it was nyef's idea
2018-01-21T17:07:22Z zazzerino: nice
2018-01-21T17:07:25Z phoe: so that's the workaround. good!
2018-01-21T17:07:26Z pagnol: it compiles and the 'quick demo' in the project's readme.md runs
2018-01-21T17:07:39Z pagnol: and does the right thing
2018-01-21T17:08:24Z pagnol: jackdaniel, oh, thanks for correcting me
2018-01-21T17:08:43Z pagnol: you folks are really helpful!
2018-01-21T17:09:59Z jackdaniel: 3:42 for lisp friendly community vs lisp smug weenies ;-)
2018-01-21T17:10:09Z jackdaniel: (↑ joke of course)
2018-01-21T17:11:02Z phoe: I heard a gossip that everyone is helpful compared to ##c
2018-01-21T17:11:07Z phoe: but that's just a gossip
2018-01-21T17:11:16Z KZiemian: see you
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2018-01-21T17:14:18Z pagnol: being new to lisp I had to google to find out what this refers too and am reading http://wiki.c2.com/?SmugLispWeenie
2018-01-21T17:14:24Z pagnol: hilarious
2018-01-21T17:14:45Z phoe: oooh, c2wiki
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2018-01-21T17:27:52Z drmeister: I'm writing allocation profiling code for Clasp - is it better to keep track of the total memory allocated or the number of allocations?
2018-01-21T17:28:56Z drmeister: It seems to me the number of allocations is more valuable - there's overhead associated with each allocation.
2018-01-21T17:30:03Z drmeister: I'll do them both.
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2018-01-21T17:33:50Z Bike: isn't the overhead pretty tiny?
2018-01-21T17:33:51Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 10 hours, 42 minutes ago: bclasp seems rock solid now - no more exception handling problems that I can see.
2018-01-21T17:33:51Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 10 hours, 40 minutes ago: It was a very, very longstanding problem in the WITH-TRY macro when an exception bubbles up the stack.
2018-01-21T17:33:58Z Bike: oh
2018-01-21T17:35:05Z drmeister: Hi Bike
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2018-01-21T17:39:12Z Bike: hi
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2018-01-21T18:15:09Z pagnol: phoe, may I ask what you were planning to use lisp-binary for initially?
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2018-01-21T18:19:19Z oisjdfoasidf: https://pastebin.com/61SjuyYV I get "*** - CONCATENATE: #\a is not a SEQUENCE", help?
2018-01-21T18:19:32Z pjb: (vector #\a) or (list #\a) instead of #\a
2018-01-21T18:19:36Z pjb: or even "a"
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2018-01-21T18:19:56Z beach: oisjdfoasidf: That code has several problems.
2018-01-21T18:20:09Z beach: oisjdfoasidf: What is result for instance?
2018-01-21T18:20:22Z oisjdfoasidf: I am brand new to lisp (coming from years of Python experience), and finding it very hard to get used to lisp. trying to write basic hangman game..
2018-01-21T18:20:24Z beach: oisjdfoasidf: It looks like a non-existing variable, and that is not allowed.
2018-01-21T18:21:15Z pjb: oisjdfoasidf: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman
2018-01-21T18:21:26Z pjb: oisjdfoasidf: try LET
2018-01-21T18:21:28Z pjb: clhs let
2018-01-21T18:21:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2018-01-21T18:21:33Z oisjdfoasidf: pjb: thanks
2018-01-21T18:21:35Z beach: oisjdfoasidf: IF in Common Lisp is a form with a value, so you can write: (setq result (concatenate 'string result (if (find c guesses) x y)))
2018-01-21T18:21:53Z pjb: oisjdfoasidf: but more probably, you'd want to use a functional expression, not a procedural one!
2018-01-21T18:22:17Z beach: oisjdfoasidf: Only in languages where IF is a statement must you duplicate the (setq result (concatenate 'string result ....))
2018-01-21T18:22:19Z pjb: oisjdfoasidf: also, your function doesn't do I/O, so don't include "PRINT-" in  its name!
2018-01-21T18:22:44Z oisjdfoasidf: pjb: ok
2018-01-21T18:23:19Z pjb: (defun current-matches (word guess) (map 'string (lambda (word-char guess-char) (if (char= word-char guess-char) word-char #\-)) word guess)) (current-matches "apple" "ajkle") #| --> "a--le" |#
2018-01-21T18:23:42Z oisjdfoasidf: pjb: thanks I'll try that example
2018-01-21T18:23:51Z pjb: or s/current-matches/match-word/
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2018-01-21T18:25:12Z pjb: (defun revealed-word (word guesses) (map 'string (lambda (word-char) (if (find word-char guesses) word-char #\-)) word))    (revealed-word "apple" "ajklexyz") #| --> "a--le" |#
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2018-01-21T18:25:43Z pjb: s/word-char/letter/ of course…
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2018-01-21T18:31:12Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: trial is completely unrelated to cepl?
2018-01-21T18:31:18Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-01-21T18:31:21Z AeroNotix: ok
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2018-01-21T18:31:29Z Shinmera: Why are you asking?
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2018-01-21T18:32:03Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: Just asking. I see you and baggers chatting often (in his stream etc) and you are working on different but similar things. Just think it's interesting
2018-01-21T18:32:12Z Shinmera: Ah, sure.
2018-01-21T18:32:20Z Shinmera: Starting my gamedev stream in 30 minutes, by the way.
2018-01-21T18:32:31Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: oh I thought it already finished
2018-01-21T18:32:36Z Shinmera: https://events.tymoon.eu/1
2018-01-21T18:32:52Z AeroNotix: I usually don't watch streams because they're too slow and end up waiting til they're on youtube so I can put them on 2x or 3x speed
2018-01-21T18:32:55Z AeroNotix: but I'll definitely check it out
2018-01-21T18:33:01Z Shinmera: Alright.
2018-01-21T18:33:16Z AeroNotix: not that the content isn't interesting, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DjEK3DMY_0 I'm watching this right now
2018-01-21T18:33:26Z AeroNotix: just meant that I prefer them to be a little faster
2018-01-21T18:33:33Z Shinmera: Sure, I can understand that.
2018-01-21T18:33:41Z AeroNotix: really making me want to write a little 2D game :)
2018-01-21T18:34:01Z AeroNotix: no experience with anything like this. I find CEPL tricky to just "get started" in it.
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2018-01-21T18:34:44Z AeroNotix: I'd love to make some wicked 2d game mixing CL+Erlang
2018-01-21T18:34:49Z AeroNotix: multiplate
2018-01-21T18:34:51Z AeroNotix: multiplayer
2018-01-21T18:35:34Z Shinmera: Getting into graphics stuff is tough. There's a lot of crap to learn up front before you can get anything done.
2018-01-21T18:36:00Z AeroNotix: yeah exactly. I'm a proficient programmer and have been programming for years but there's something about graphics libraries that seem so daunting
2018-01-21T18:36:09Z AeroNotix: lots of terminology and extremely baroque libraries
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2018-01-21T18:36:21Z AeroNotix: not that trial is, I'm more talking about the raw C libraries
2018-01-21T18:36:37Z Shinmera: Well, I'm sure Trial isn't easy to get into either
2018-01-21T18:36:52Z Shinmera: Mostly cause it's very unfinished and there's zero documentation
2018-01-21T18:36:52Z AeroNotix: haha, will check it out.
2018-01-21T18:37:17Z AeroNotix: It'd be good if for people's games libraries they literally made an example game which had you move a square inside a box.
2018-01-21T18:37:39Z AeroNotix: anyway, will check the stream and trial out tonight
2018-01-21T18:37:52Z aeth: They might have an examples directory
2018-01-21T18:38:29Z Shinmera: For Trial there's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v6iv_3BLeo, but it is pretty detailed (and slightly out of date by now)
2018-01-21T18:38:48Z Shinmera: So I don't know how helpful that would be. Honestly can't recommend anyone to get into it right now that doesn't want to just do engine work.
2018-01-21T18:38:49Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: thanks. Will check that out
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2018-01-21T18:39:13Z aeth: My nowhere-near-complete engine has an examples directory. I'm done developing the API when the examples are elegant. Very useful for me to have. I'm sure more complete projects have the same idea.
2018-01-21T18:39:26Z AeroNotix: It's amazing watching these streams, going from drawing a ground/wall tile to having it appear in a game and then loading up sprites that then shoot seems so simple. But you're clearly familiar with the API.
2018-01-21T18:39:41Z AeroNotix: aeth: why so many game engines :)
2018-01-21T18:39:52Z Shinmera: When the tooling works making games can be amazing.
2018-01-21T18:39:53Z pjb: NIH
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2018-01-21T18:40:23Z aeth: AeroNotix: I started before anything existed. It just takes a very long time.
2018-01-21T18:40:32Z AeroNotix: aeth: understandable
2018-01-21T18:40:56Z aeth: Even now, maybe 2 or 3 are actually not under construction
2018-01-21T18:41:36Z aeth: (Probably 6 are unstable in their APIs)
2018-01-21T18:42:04Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: what are you streaming today?
2018-01-21T18:42:18Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: says so at the bottom of the event page
2018-01-21T18:42:20Z aeth: It's hard to tell what's out there because the line between library, framework, and engine is blurry
2018-01-21T18:42:22Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: my bad
2018-01-21T18:42:35Z aeth: Some engines are built on other engines, too
2018-01-21T18:42:53Z AeroNotix: aeth: it's not just a CL problem, there's TONNES of graphics libraries and related things to use. Kind of paralysing if you want to just jump into something
2018-01-21T18:43:03Z AeroNotix: idunno, just me citing other reasons for being lazy and not jumping in :)
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2018-01-21T18:45:54Z aeth: AeroNotix: (1) It's complicated enough for many different abstractions to make sense but not complicated enough to seem impossible, (2) most things wind up being outdated and it's easier to NIH than to update an older library
2018-01-21T18:46:33Z Shinmera: I've always had the bad habit of writing more engine than application code, so here I am never getting any actual games out
2018-01-21T18:46:44Z aeth: But #2 mostly doesn't apply to Lisp. It only has a few heavily-outdated libraries. It explains a few things, though, like cl-glfw vs. cl-glfw3
2018-01-21T18:47:10Z aeth: (cl-glfw3 was probably easier for the author than updating the original)
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2018-01-21T18:48:46Z AeroNotix: are there any popular games written in CL? E.g. something indie on steam
2018-01-21T18:49:25Z aeth: AeroNotix: dto has released many games on itch.io and ported at least one to Android
2018-01-21T18:49:49Z aeth: I'm not sure if any are on Steam
2018-01-21T18:50:02Z Shinmera: The closest to an actual game was Shirakumo's last LD entry: https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/39/rush
2018-01-21T18:50:24Z aeth: https://dto.itch.io/
2018-01-21T18:50:25Z Shinmera: Other than that all I've produced were prototypes that never got anywhere
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2018-01-21T18:54:13Z aeth: I intentionally don't release things, although I'm getting closer to 70% or so of a basic game (ignoring some ignorable things like sound for now). Anything released would become a maintenance nightmare if the API isn't final. I suspect many others are in a similar situation.
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2018-01-21T18:58:34Z aeth: itch.io hosts Lisp game jams regularly (where "Lisp" there means "the Lisp family", but it's mostly Common Lisp). e.g. https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode/entries
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2018-01-21T19:03:41Z phoe: pagnol: parsing a binary format.
2018-01-21T19:03:53Z phoe: I ended up parsing it manually using fast-io instead.
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2018-01-21T19:06:54Z AeroNotix: phoe: there's a couple of libraries for parsing binary streams
2018-01-21T19:06:57Z AeroNotix: some are incredibly good
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2018-01-21T19:07:35Z phoe: AeroNotix: I have already managed to succeed with the parsing, thank you for the offer though.
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2018-01-21T19:08:08Z AeroNotix: phoe: http://www.cliki.net/Binary-types think this is the one I used in the past
2018-01-21T19:08:18Z Xach: Yowza
2018-01-21T19:08:24Z phoe: I tried using it, didn't succeed though.
2018-01-21T19:08:41Z jackdaniel used binary-types succesfully in the past
2018-01-21T19:09:13Z Xach: I had a macro IN-ANONYMOUS-DIRECTORY that would make a temporary random directory, set *d-p-d* to that directory, evaluate a body, and then clean up the directory.
2018-01-21T19:09:46Z AeroNotix: Xach: are you going to say you accidentally rm -rf /?
2018-01-21T19:09:48Z Xach: but I had a typo and had something like (in-anonymous-directoryk (write-report *default-pathname-defaults*) (upload-report *default-pathname-defaults*)))
2018-01-21T19:10:18Z phoe: did that compile?
2018-01-21T19:10:29Z Xach: yes, sure. no problem referencing undefined functions.
2018-01-21T19:10:37Z phoe: or did it overwrite your vanilla *default-pathname-defaults*?
2018-01-21T19:10:44Z phoe: since the arg is evaluated first
2018-01-21T19:10:48Z Xach: and evaluation rules meant that each part of the body ran. but it started publishing way more stuff than i wanted.
2018-01-21T19:10:51Z phoe: args*
2018-01-21T19:11:06Z Xach: the uploader expects the report to be the only contents
2018-01-21T19:11:13Z Xach: instead it was uploading my entire system, practically
2018-01-21T19:11:17Z phoe: but it was your whole homedir instead
2018-01-21T19:11:23Z phoe: Yowza
2018-01-21T19:11:41Z Xach: i actually lucked out because i had an encoded pathname and it broke the request signature
2018-01-21T19:11:47Z jackdaniel: sounds like a plan for transparency ;-)
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2018-01-21T19:12:23Z Xach: Back in ye olden times, people sometimes did "touch ./-i" to force rm to be interactive.
2018-01-21T19:12:31Z Xach: I wonder about other poison pills for my mistake...
2018-01-21T19:13:08Z pjb: Well, I was bitten by: rm -rf ${DIR}/${SUBDIR} ; tested well under user accounts, but under root, DIR and SUBDIR were empty!
2018-01-21T19:13:31Z pjb: so touch ./-i woudn't be of use…
2018-01-21T19:13:54Z phoe: $ sudo rm /usr /lib/thunderbird/*
2018-01-21T19:14:01Z pjb: That's when I patched rm itself (and now gnu rm has a similar patch).
2018-01-21T19:14:38Z AeroNotix: something off topic but I hate how slack downloads snippets with the filename "-.txt"
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2018-01-21T19:27:14Z aeth: pjb: are you serious? That's bad.
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2018-01-21T19:31:55Z Bike: wait, doesn't the shell interpolation just give rm "/"? how could it detect that?
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2018-01-21T19:38:36Z jmercouris: good evening everyone
2018-01-21T19:38:51Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Just wondering, why is it called "Treehouse"?
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2018-01-21T19:56:22Z jmercouris: Anyone have experience with: https://github.com/AlexCharlton/site-generator?
2018-01-21T19:56:56Z jmercouris: I see that you can name your own markup you like via :markup to any value supported by pandoc
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2018-01-21T19:57:30Z jmercouris: The only question is, for things like images, how do you like them let's say if you are using emacs org mode, will it be smart enough to see a link to the static dir and make an appropriate link?
2018-01-21T19:57:38Z jmercouris: s/like/link
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2018-01-21T19:57:46Z jmercouris: I guess I'll have to test it to find out
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2018-01-21T19:59:56Z knobo: I'm using websocket-driver, and I need to keep som extra data in the websocket object. I could extend the class, and do a change-class after it is created.
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2018-01-21T20:00:19Z knobo: But someone once warned me against using change-class. But I don't remember why.
2018-01-21T20:00:27Z phoe: knobo: can't you subclass it?
2018-01-21T20:00:45Z knobo: Yes, that's what I want.
2018-01-21T20:00:51Z phoe: so what is preventing you?
2018-01-21T20:01:07Z knobo: I could do that. And that is what i was planning.
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2018-01-21T20:01:19Z knobo: The reason I need to do change-class after it is initiated
2018-01-21T20:01:19Z phoe: how are the instances constructed?
2018-01-21T20:01:40Z knobo: Is that the library has it's own make-websocket-class function that does some initiation.
2018-01-21T20:01:48Z knobo: And I don't want to duplicate that code.
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2018-01-21T20:01:54Z phoe: so not using make-instance.
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2018-01-21T20:04:01Z knobo: the wsd:make-server does some things to the object that is returned to me.. (apply #'make-instance 'server .......)
2018-01-21T20:05:08Z knobo: https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/blob/master/src/server.lisp
2018-01-21T20:05:17Z knobo: I just did not want to duplicate that code.
2018-01-21T20:06:11Z knobo: Even though it's not much code, it makes it dificult to maintain.
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2018-01-21T20:09:54Z knobo: So, no obvious resons to not use change-class..
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2018-01-21T20:13:04Z phoe: sounds like change-class would be the necessary evil in this case.
2018-01-21T20:14:42Z malice: knobo: Why do you need to keep the data in the websocket object, and why couldn't you for example wrap the object in other object?
2018-01-21T20:15:20Z knobo: I don't know how to wrap objects.
2018-01-21T20:15:26Z knobo: :P
2018-01-21T20:15:38Z _death: knobo: I think change-class is acceptable in this scenario
2018-01-21T20:16:13Z knobo: I can not keep it in the session object, because a user can be connected with several browser windows, and multiple connections in same window.
2018-01-21T20:16:45Z knobo: Thank you guys for the support :)
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2018-01-21T22:12:04Z Shinmera: ::notify jmercouris Cause it's a place to hang out with friends and chill on the weekend.
2018-01-21T22:12:04Z Colleen: Shinmera: Got it. I'll let jmercouris know as soon as possible.
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2018-01-21T22:25:16Z pagnol: Shinmera, hey, how you are doing? :)
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2018-01-21T22:26:00Z Shinmera: Tired because it's late, stressed due to upcoming exams, and salty as I had a losing streak in Splatoon a while ago.
2018-01-21T22:26:06Z Shinmera: Otherwise fine though
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2018-01-21T22:26:38Z pagnol: Have you been working on the kanji thing?
2018-01-21T22:26:49Z iqubic: So lisp only supports prefix notation?
2018-01-21T22:26:54Z Shinmera: No, I'm currently working on hardly anything.
2018-01-21T22:27:01Z pagnol: How so?
2018-01-21T22:27:08Z Shinmera: The exams I just mentioned?
2018-01-21T22:27:12Z pagnol: Ah right
2018-01-21T22:27:28Z antoszka: iqubic: lisp supports any notation you tell it to use, but usually you'll use the built-in one, which is mostly prefixy
2018-01-21T22:27:28Z pagnol: What are they about?
2018-01-21T22:27:29Z iqubic: Even for mathematical operators? You only get prefix notation? Like how do you compare numbers?
2018-01-21T22:27:52Z Shinmera: pagnol: Nothing lispy, that's for sure.
2018-01-21T22:28:02Z antoszka: iqubic: (< 4 5) => T
2018-01-21T22:28:19Z knobo: hmmm. It's like asking permission from my parents, "May I please use the change-class, mom? Please.. Just once. Ahhh... come on! That's not fair.. Ok, then. thanx" :P
2018-01-21T22:28:34Z antoszka: iqubic: also (< 4 5 7 10) => T, try that in infix notation :)
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2018-01-21T22:29:59Z iqubic: "4 < 5 && 5 < 7 && 7 < 10"
2018-01-21T22:30:10Z iqubic: Wow, that is ugly.
2018-01-21T22:30:10Z Shinmera: antoszka: (< 7) => T, try THAT in infix :^)
2018-01-21T22:30:25Z iqubic: How does that work Shinmera?
2018-01-21T22:30:27Z antoszka: Yeah, or those (*) and (+).
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2018-01-21T22:30:50Z pagnol: antoszka, ICON supports that
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2018-01-21T22:31:14Z Shinmera: iqubic: By being specified to work
2018-01-21T22:31:29Z iqubic: Wait, (+ foo) returns the value of foo?
2018-01-21T22:31:41Z antoszka: I'm totally not suggesting lisps are the only languages that support zero-argument arithmetic functions.
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2018-01-21T22:32:20Z iqubic: Yes, but with zero argument arithmetic operations you get the identity.
2018-01-21T22:32:40Z iqubic: So I assume (+) and (*) are defined as folds?
2018-01-21T22:32:50Z aeth: iqubic: (+ foo) returns the value of foo if foo is a number, (- foo) negates the value of foo. (* foo) also returns the value of the number. (/ foo) gives the same result as (/ 1 foo)
2018-01-21T22:32:56Z antoszka: Exactly, that's why (+) returns 0 and (*) returns 1, identity.
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2018-01-21T22:33:21Z iqubic: Does lisp have a map function?
2018-01-21T22:33:29Z antoszka: As Shinmera said it's a matter of specification (and convention, too).
2018-01-21T22:33:32Z iqubic: Yeah, it's called mapcar.
2018-01-21T22:33:33Z antoszka: iqubic: Many.
2018-01-21T22:33:36Z aeth: - and / are trickier because they don't have a 0-value form and their 1-value form is less expected than + and *
2018-01-21T22:33:42Z antoszka: Including mapcar.
2018-01-21T22:33:55Z iqubic: Does lisp have any way to fold over a list of values?
2018-01-21T22:34:00Z aeth: reduce
2018-01-21T22:34:36Z iqubic: I don't understand what the rest and key args do there though.
2018-01-21T22:35:09Z antoszka: iqubic: The lambda list specification is rather rich in Common Lisp it might take a while to sink into.
2018-01-21T22:35:30Z iqubic: What is the lambda list specification?
2018-01-21T22:35:56Z iqubic: I'm talking about not understanding the &rest and &key args of reduce.
2018-01-21T22:36:13Z antoszka: Ah, those.
2018-01-21T22:36:17Z antoszka: In particular.
2018-01-21T22:36:20Z aeth: iqubic: map is probably more useful than mapcar because it works on any sequence and can return any sequence, e.g.: (map 'string (lambda (c) (code-char (- (char-code c) 1))) "Ifmmp-!xpsme\"")
2018-01-21T22:36:41Z _death: iqubic: what &rest args
2018-01-21T22:36:42Z iqubic: That's cool
2018-01-21T22:37:33Z iqubic: The &rest args in reduce.
2018-01-21T22:37:42Z _death: clhs reduce
2018-01-21T22:37:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
2018-01-21T22:37:43Z aeth: Oh and people who are using EBCDIC-based Lisps will forever wonder what message I was trying to send.
2018-01-21T22:37:57Z _death: don't see any &rest there
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2018-01-21T22:38:31Z iqubic: _death: slime is telling me that reduce has &rest.
2018-01-21T22:38:34Z antoszka: iqubic: there's no &rest in reduce's standard implementation.
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2018-01-21T22:38:49Z _death: iqubic: so the first step to understand is to move from slime to clhs
2018-01-21T22:38:54Z antoszka: iqubic: there are just some keyword arguments that specify which part of the list to extract for processing.
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2018-01-21T22:39:08Z iqubic: I see.
2018-01-21T22:39:33Z iqubic: is slime not the right way to interact with lisp?
2018-01-21T22:40:33Z zazzerino: it is, but for learning how a function works you want to look at the hyperspec
2018-01-21T22:40:43Z iqubic: Can one define their own sequence for use with map?
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2018-01-21T22:41:25Z _death: some implementations provide a way
2018-01-21T22:41:27Z Shinmera: If the implementation supports the extensible sequences protocol, probably.
2018-01-21T22:41:31Z iqubic: Or is there a default set of sequences I have to pick from.
2018-01-21T22:41:39Z Shinmera: clhs sequence
2018-01-21T22:41:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
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2018-01-21T22:43:07Z aeth: sequences are, by default, 1D arrays or lists made from conses
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2018-01-21T22:43:20Z aeth: this does eliminate a lot of interesting options, particularly with lists
2018-01-21T22:43:32Z aeth: (strings are just 1D arrays that only hold type character)
2018-01-21T22:44:05Z iqubic: I really need to find a good lisp tutorial to work from.
2018-01-21T22:44:19Z aeth: (characters are a type that can be converted to/from a number with char-code/code-char; that's implementation-specific, but the ASCII range is probably portable over every currently-alive implementation)
2018-01-21T22:44:50Z zazzerino: iqubic: read 'Practical Common Lisp' http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-01-21T22:45:24Z aeth: The weaknesses here are different character encodings (fortunately, Unicode has mostly won) and different types of sequences (e.g. doubly linked lists, typed lists, lazy lists, etc.)
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2018-01-21T22:46:12Z iqubic: What kind of sequence does sbcl use as the default?
2018-01-21T22:46:34Z aeth: there is no default for make-sequence, you have to give the result type, like with map
2018-01-21T22:46:50Z aeth: 1D arrays (vectors) and lists are just too different
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2018-01-21T22:48:14Z aeth: You'd use vector or make-array for the first category and list or make-list for the second, with string and make-string as unnecessary but useful (you can just make-array with a :element-type 'character instead)
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2018-01-21T22:49:01Z antoszka: iqubic: The “typical” sequences you'll get to deal with in CL would probably be lists (obviously), strings and 1-or-more dimensional arrays.
2018-01-21T22:49:02Z aeth: Code that works on all sequences will probably have two completely different implementations, one for vectors and one for lists. It might have more than two if it wants to be very efficient, e.g. implementations of map probably have many versions
2018-01-21T22:49:59Z aeth: With sequences and numbers, type information can make your code very efficient because if the compiler knows the type, it can skip runtime dispatch based on type.
2018-01-21T22:51:25Z aeth: antoszka: Unfortunately, multi-dimensional arrays aren't sequences. A lot of the time treating them as sequences would actually be useful.
2018-01-21T22:51:41Z pagnol: phoe, I'm pretty stoked about the lisp-binary library currently
2018-01-21T22:52:54Z antoszka: aeth: True.
2018-01-21T22:53:03Z antoszka: I made a mental shortcut here.
2018-01-21T22:53:15Z aeth: Multidimensional arrays and multiple return values are neglected in the standard. Any code that uses either heavily is probably going to reinvent a lot of the same macros and functions.
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2018-01-21T22:53:40Z _death: aeth: you can use displaced arrays
2018-01-21T22:55:16Z aeth: _death: (map 'matrix (lambda (x) (* x 1)) some-matrix) would have been so much better than the many ways you can currently work around that limitation. Although the actual flat order is possibly implementation-dependent, so it would mostly be useful for pure functions on one 2D array.
2018-01-21T22:56:14Z _death: if you want array operations, there are libraries for that already
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2018-01-21T22:56:45Z aeth: I know. About half of my utility library is making 2D arrays easier to work with.
2018-01-21T22:57:32Z _death: lisp is raw material, the job of a programmer is to work with that
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2018-01-21T23:23:28Z pagnol: I have a byte vector and would like to get a stream as though I had used with-open-file and (unsigned-byte 8) as element-type
2018-01-21T23:23:44Z pagnol: is there something I can use?
2018-01-21T23:25:01Z Xach: pagnol: flexi-streams can do it.
2018-01-21T23:25:02Z _death: flexi-streams has a with-input-from-sequence
2018-01-21T23:25:31Z pjb: pagnol: notice that it is much much faster to use aref…
2018-01-21T23:25:41Z Shinmera: Flexi-streams is kinda slow
2018-01-21T23:25:57Z pjb: I can't understand how people who use sbcl and specialized vectors "for speed" are the same who use flexi-streams…
2018-01-21T23:26:53Z _death: 80-20 rule?
2018-01-21T23:27:34Z pagnol: I'm messing around with the lisp-binary library and unless I missed something, then the function read-binary only takes streams
2018-01-21T23:27:57Z pagnol: my data doesn't arrive as a stream though
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2018-01-21T23:29:54Z aeth: pagnol: You can define a custom stream with trivial-gray-streams. All you would need to do is inherit from fundamental-binary-output-stream and/or fundamental-binary-input-stream and define the proper methods
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2018-01-21T23:30:08Z pagnol: aha
2018-01-21T23:30:25Z aeth: Just store your array in a slot in the new class
2018-01-21T23:30:29Z pjb: what about lisp-binary:wrap-in-bit-stream ?
2018-01-21T23:30:35Z pagnol: I encountered 'gray stream' somewhere today...
2018-01-21T23:30:40Z _death: you could hack flexi-streams to support sharing so it doesn't need to subseq.. if it's still as according to my notes from years ago
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2018-01-21T23:32:33Z pagnol: ah, wrap-in-bit-stream might do it?
2018-01-21T23:32:40Z pagnol: I'll give it a shot
2018-01-21T23:32:42Z pjb: Well, no. It only takes streams.
2018-01-21T23:33:06Z aeth: Making a stream with trivial-gray-streams is very concise. Your implementation will probably be < 30 lines.
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2018-01-21T23:33:26Z pagnol: I was using with-wrapped-in-bit-stream for byte-streams before
2018-01-21T23:33:28Z aeth: binary streams are the easier ones (character streams are the harder ones)
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2018-01-21T23:33:52Z pjb: Perhaps you can extend lisp-binary::bit-stream ?
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2018-01-21T23:34:09Z pagnol: I'll try to get it to work with flex-stream and worry about performance later
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2018-01-21T23:37:11Z pagnol: now I get an error from flexi-streams saying my sequence can't be decoded using utf-8... why the heck is it even trying to do that?
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2018-01-21T23:37:55Z _death: pagnol: you didn't read the manual?
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2018-01-22T00:26:35Z dieggsy: Is there anything _like_ hy but that is a proper scheme/CL or scheme/CL compliant? That is, a scheme/cl for interacting with Python. Hy is neat, but some of its syntax is... odd
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2018-01-22T00:28:56Z Shinmera: Implementing Common Lisp is a gargantuan task.
2018-01-22T00:29:30Z Shinmera: You can go the other way though with CLPython
2018-01-22T00:30:22Z Xach: burgled-batteries seemed to be something kind of like that?
2018-01-22T00:30:51Z Shinmera: That's another thing to run Python on CL, not the other way around.
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2018-01-22T00:33:14Z dieggsy: Shinmera: heh, cool nonetheless! (and yeah, i kinda would expect it to be a scheme for some reason, but to my knowledge no such thing exists)
2018-01-22T00:33:20Z dieggsy: besides hy, but hy's syntax makes me twitch a bit
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2018-01-22T00:35:37Z dieggsy: er, and it's not either really
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2018-01-22T00:58:48Z fiddlerwoaroof_: pagnol: is this what you want? https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/vector-update-stream
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2018-01-22T00:59:51Z pagnol: fiddlerwoaroof_, I think so, yes, thank you
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2018-01-22T01:00:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_: These tests are the closest thing to documentation :)
2018-01-22T01:00:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/vector-update-stream/blob/master/stream-to-vector.lisp#L103
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2018-01-22T01:01:35Z fiddlerwoaroof_: It's under the same license as flexi-streams (BSD-2-clause), so you should be able to use it with anything
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2018-01-22T01:02:35Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I think I wrote it by taking some code from flexi-streams and modifying it a bit, because flexi-streams didn't really expose this kind of functionality: it generally assumes that the stream "owns" the underlying vector.
2018-01-22T01:05:47Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I'll submit it as a quicklisp project to make it easier to user
2018-01-22T01:06:25Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof_: for a second I thought you were referencing me
2018-01-22T01:06:25Z Colleen: jmercouris: Shinmera said 2 hours, 54 minutes ago: Cause it's a place to hang out with friends and chill on the weekend.
2018-01-22T01:06:35Z jmercouris: my old IRC username was user_
2018-01-22T01:07:03Z jmercouris: Shinmera: interesting, it makes sense, i like it!
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2018-01-22T01:10:04Z pagnol: fiddlerwoaroof_, I found out though that flexi-stream:with-input-from-sequence does the job too
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2018-01-22T01:10:41Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Hmm, I wonder why I missed that
2018-01-22T01:11:06Z pagnol: when I first used I got an error from flexi-stream, so that I assumed I had used it incorrectly... but it turned out that the error originated from somewhere deeper in the stack and I had used it correctly
2018-01-22T01:11:35Z pagnol: because the library I'm using (lisp-binary) also relies on flexi-stream for some of its functionality
2018-01-22T01:12:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I remember evaluating flexi-streams when I wrote that library and finding that something didn't work quite the way I wanted
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2018-01-22T01:12:40Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But I forget the details now, I suppose I should have documented it in the readme \_(;/)_/
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2018-01-22T01:31:20Z jmercouris: How do I make a nickname for a package I did not define?
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2018-01-22T01:36:50Z jmercouris: It is not possible from what I gather?
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2018-01-22T01:41:20Z Xach: jmercouris: you can with rename-package.
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2018-01-22T01:46:24Z jmercouris: Xach: Thank you
2018-01-22T01:50:37Z Xach: I vagely remember some utility that provides add-nickname but maybe it was a dream.
2018-01-22T01:50:55Z jmercouris: my whole life feels like some sort of third person reality these days
2018-01-22T01:51:09Z jmercouris: like I'm watching a movie
2018-01-22T01:51:17Z jmercouris: not sure if that's what you mean as well, but, yeah
2018-01-22T01:52:08Z Bike: that sounds like derealization.
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2018-01-22T01:53:57Z jmercouris: sure does
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2018-01-22T01:55:10Z jmercouris: Xach: Do you still reccomend people use build-app?
2018-01-22T01:55:42Z Xach: jmercouris: I still use it. I like it.
2018-01-22T01:55:59Z jmercouris: Good enough for me, :)
2018-01-22T01:56:02Z Xach: I would recommend it to anyone who finds other options more difficult to understand.
2018-01-22T01:56:09Z Xach: (that is why I made it in the first place)
2018-01-22T01:56:12Z jmercouris: I was just thinking about ripping it out of a project
2018-01-22T01:56:17Z jmercouris: that is all, but if it still works, why change it
2018-01-22T01:56:32Z Xach: It has some problems. I wish the multiplatform support was better. I have a plan to improve it but not the time.
2018-01-22T01:56:42Z jmercouris: Man, I know
2018-01-22T01:56:46Z jmercouris: I wish we had more time
2018-01-22T01:56:57Z jmercouris: every company says "we care about open source" but I've not seen a dollar of their investment into it
2018-01-22T01:57:11Z jmercouris: they throw a couple of peanuts and pay lip service
2018-01-22T01:57:38Z jmercouris: I wish I could support the community more, monetarily at least, the skills I don't have
2018-01-22T01:58:45Z jmercouris: I really do care
2018-01-22T01:59:10Z jmercouris: I'll just throw this out there in general, if anyone in this community needs someone to talk to, I'm always happy to listen
2018-01-22T01:59:21Z jmercouris: and provide advice, if solicited
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2018-01-22T02:07:06Z aeth: jmercouris: Software companies should require that any hours of developer work beyond 30 in a week go to open source projects. This could help prevent burnout. (This could include Creative Commons and cover some non-programming roles, too.)
2018-01-22T02:07:34Z jmercouris: aeth: Yeah, in a better world, it could be so
2018-01-22T02:07:57Z jmercouris: I'm hoping that nEXT can one day be an open source company that actually gives back to the community
2018-01-22T02:08:26Z aeth: jmercouris: Then you can comply with my proposed rule while overworking your developers with 90 hour weeks! Perfect!
2018-01-22T02:08:27Z jmercouris: I'll probably not succeed, but at least I'm trying
2018-01-22T02:08:43Z jmercouris: aeth: I don't plan on overworking anybody, I'm sorry to dissapoint
2018-01-22T02:08:50Z jmercouris: I've already experienced a terrible burnout myself
2018-01-22T02:09:24Z jmercouris: full time work as a professional engineer + 2x as many classes as a normal student + moving to a new country + research publications simultaneously + many family health issues = not a good time
2018-01-22T02:09:26Z jmercouris: ask me how I know
2018-01-22T02:09:59Z jmercouris: for now, I'm just focusing on relaxing, and finding good balance in my life
2018-01-22T02:10:16Z jmercouris: and I hope to help others as well, I want everyone to just feel happy, and safe, and relaxed
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2018-01-22T02:37:30Z jmercouris: rme: I'm trying to use clon and I think CCL is eating my command line arguments
2018-01-22T02:37:37Z jmercouris: how can I get it to avoid doing that, is there a way?
2018-01-22T02:38:00Z jmercouris: "--"?
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2018-01-22T02:48:08Z jmercouris: anyone compile site-generator?
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2018-01-22T03:08:46Z jmercouris: I can't get it to accept command line arguments
2018-01-22T03:09:00Z jmercouris: I'm just going to strip clon
2018-01-22T03:09:22Z iqubic: What's wrong jmercouris?
2018-01-22T03:09:43Z jmercouris: iqubic: Are you able to get it to work or something?
2018-01-22T03:09:54Z jmercouris: site-generator doesn't seem to accept any args
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2018-01-22T03:10:15Z jmercouris: https://github.com/AlexCharlton/site-generator
2018-01-22T03:10:58Z jmercouris: Xach: Might I suggest in the build script not requiring a bin directory for buildapp
2018-01-22T03:11:13Z jmercouris: I keep having to make a /my/path/bin, then moving buildapp out of there to /my/path
2018-01-22T03:11:21Z jmercouris: your call of course, just my 2 cents
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2018-01-22T03:21:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-22T03:24:06Z jmercouris: Hallo hallo guten morgen, hallo hallo, guten tag!
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2018-01-22T03:47:52Z loke: Hello beach
2018-01-22T03:47:56Z loke: and jmercouris
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2018-01-22T04:13:25Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
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2018-01-22T04:13:39Z iqubic: I'm actually about to leave for the night.
2018-01-22T04:13:45Z iqubic: so, night all.
2018-01-22T04:13:59Z beach: 'night iqubic.
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2018-01-22T04:14:09Z iqubic: I'm just gonna idle while gone.
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2018-01-22T05:01:13Z drmeister: #\nul   - what's up with that character name?
2018-01-22T05:01:29Z drmeister: It's in the clasp source (inherited from ECL) but it's not standard.
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2018-01-22T05:02:24Z drmeister: No - it's not inherited - never mind.
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2018-01-22T05:15:46Z drmeister: beach: I'm getting this error:
2018-01-22T05:16:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/i0XPbKND/
2018-01-22T05:16:26Z drmeister: When reading this...
2018-01-22T05:16:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cCSKGFoz/
2018-01-22T05:16:39Z drmeister: I'm thinking it's the nested #+(or) ?
2018-01-22T05:17:47Z beach: I'll investigate.  Thanks.
2018-01-22T05:18:25Z drmeister: Here is a smaller test case that fails the same way...
2018-01-22T05:18:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uXtvxN1i/
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2018-01-22T05:20:33Z beach: Thanks, that's helpful.
2018-01-22T05:21:50Z jmercouris: So I have a function like this (defun print-something () (print (get-value)))
2018-01-22T05:21:57Z jmercouris: This function will ALWAYS print-nil
2018-01-22T05:22:27Z jmercouris: but if I write instead (defun print-something () (print *some-parameter*)) it will print the value of that parameter
2018-01-22T05:22:37Z jmercouris: here's the tricky thing though, (get-value) just returns the value of that parameter
2018-01-22T05:22:54Z drmeister: Oh - sorry - I'm in #lisp.
2018-01-22T05:23:00Z drmeister: Right - that's it - I'm off to bed.
2018-01-22T05:23:18Z loke: jmercouris: Can you share code?
2018-01-22T05:23:37Z jmercouris: Let me try one more thing before sharing, just wish to verify
2018-01-22T05:23:49Z jmercouris: I figured it was some strange closure optimization, but it could be a stupid issue
2018-01-22T05:24:00Z jmercouris: I'll also restart my image
2018-01-22T05:24:13Z loke: Is the variabele defined by defconstant?
2018-01-22T05:24:22Z jmercouris: No, defparameter, and it is setf'd
2018-01-22T05:24:33Z loke: OK, create a test case.
2018-01-22T05:24:43Z jmercouris: You know what, restarting my image fixed it :\
2018-01-22T05:24:54Z jmercouris: I must not be properly loading forms back into slime or something
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2018-01-22T05:32:23Z jmercouris: Is there a way to jump to the line of code from a slime restart?
2018-01-22T05:32:30Z jmercouris: like in the backtrace
2018-01-22T05:32:33Z jmercouris: can I jump to that line?
2018-01-22T05:32:46Z beach: type `v' in front of the stack frame.
2018-01-22T05:32:59Z jmercouris: I wish I knew that months ago
2018-01-22T05:33:02Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-01-22T05:33:07Z beach: But you need to have compiled with a high value of the DEBUG quality.
2018-01-22T05:33:24Z jmercouris: Seems to work when loading normally in CCL
2018-01-22T05:33:26Z beach: It is worth reading the SLIME documentation.
2018-01-22T05:33:34Z jmercouris: I'll make a slime hydra for restarts
2018-01-22T05:33:46Z jmercouris: and then I don't have to remember esoteric and random keybindings :D
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2018-01-22T05:37:54Z beach: drmeister: I am accumulating clues.  I think I can fix it during the day.
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2018-01-22T06:27:04Z iqubic: Good morning everyone.
2018-01-22T06:27:50Z iqubic: I should really figure out what hydra is and use it to help me emacs better.
2018-01-22T06:29:19Z whoman: learn to drive and then get a supercharger with turbo
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2018-01-22T06:30:30Z iqubic: What's that mean?
2018-01-22T06:31:46Z whoman: if you do not know what something is, how are you going to use it to help you <x> better ?
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2018-01-22T06:33:20Z iqubic: Oh, right.
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2018-01-22T06:35:08Z whoman: o_o
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2018-01-22T07:23:18Z kami: Good morning.
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2018-01-22T07:43:02Z dmiles: I wanted to confirm that this is not some syntax that is used by any lisp other than EusLisp right?  https://github.com/euslisp/EusLisp/blob/master/lisp/l/hashtab.l#L28-L141
2018-01-22T07:43:13Z dmiles: (for defmethod)
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2018-01-22T08:14:46Z beach: Hello kami.
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2018-01-22T09:00:28Z pjb: dmiles: it's very hard to confirm such a thing.  The probability that someone derived such a defmethod macro in a variant of eulisp or some other lisp or scheme is very high.
2018-01-22T09:00:50Z pjb: dmiles: are you trying to load EuLisp code?
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2018-01-22T09:01:48Z dmiles: well i was asking in order to figure out if there was some older type type or a special stylized non standard defmethod syntax i had not seen
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2018-01-22T09:02:34Z dmiles: it really must be a Eulisp-only thing
2018-01-22T09:02:49Z dmiles: I am using it to get a few defclasses
2018-01-22T09:03:46Z dmiles: since of course people very rarely use defclass to define builtin classes.. except me and say EusLisp etc
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2018-01-22T09:04:53Z dmiles: I was searching a few impls to see who defclassed hash-table that is.. and found EusLisp
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2018-01-22T09:06:17Z pjb: dmiles: again, it is most probablye there are other macro with different syntaxes used to define classes and methods out there.  There are more OO systems than programming languages…
2018-01-22T09:07:11Z pjb: dmiles: basically, take a scheme teacher and 100 or 200 students, and you get 200 different OO systems.
2018-01-22T09:07:23Z dmiles: :)
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2018-01-22T09:09:07Z beach: dmiles: You can count on SICL using DEFCLASS to define the HASH-TABLE class, as well as the classes for SYMBOL, PACKAGE, etc.
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2018-01-22T09:14:23Z dmiles: beach, right on, oh i now i see why i missed it on my last grep over impls.. it used defstruct.. (defstruct is just fine(
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2018-01-22T09:15:55Z beach: I keep forgetting about DEFSTRUCT since I have absolutely no intention of using it in SICL code. :)
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2018-01-22T09:16:32Z beach: And even if I *did* use it, it would have the absolute same representation as if I had used DEFCLASS.
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2018-01-22T09:17:45Z dmiles: yeah in my impl DEFSTRUCT and DEFCLASS become the same representation .. jsut with DEFSTRUCT i create extra support of slot numbers
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2018-01-22T09:27:22Z dmiles: beach, you store symbol-plist's in env ?
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2018-01-22T09:29:16Z beach: Yes.
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2018-01-22T09:40:33Z dmiles: Nice, quite a bit is stored in the env
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2018-01-22T09:42:18Z dmiles: rather than doing what i and many others do.. chekcing for environmental overrides and then going to symbol
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2018-01-22T09:43:41Z dmiles: (like for symbol-functions and variable types)
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2018-01-22T10:07:32Z beach: In fact, I save some space that way, because very few symbols will have a non-empty property list, so no need to represent them in the environment.  In a typical implementation, this cell is allocated in every symbol, whether needed or not.
2018-01-22T10:08:12Z beach: The same thing goes for the function cell, the value cell, etc.  In SICL, a symbol has only a NAME and a PACKAGE.
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2018-01-22T10:10:08Z beach: I can even imagine some implementations having two function cells in every symbol, one for the name itself and one for (SETF <name>).
2018-01-22T10:10:58Z beach: Worse (in terms of maintainability), some implementations have a function cell for the name itself, but store the SETF name somewhere else.
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2018-01-22T11:16:01Z sirkmatija: Hello, I am building a small web game and I am wondering how to serve a file (not a string) by ningle. Thanks for your help.
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2018-01-22T11:21:23Z sirkmatija: I tried reading file into string and then serving it, but then it doesn't find js script file, even if I provide full (not relative) path
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2018-01-22T11:58:48Z pjb: sirkmatija: I have no idea, but I guess it would involve reading ningle documentation…
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2018-01-22T12:03:14Z sirkmatija: I went through ningle readme and examples, but I couldn't find any other docs
2018-01-22T12:03:57Z Shinmera: Welcome to fukamachiware
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2018-01-22T12:17:33Z JuanDaugherty: sirkmatija, y u gotta use that no name thing when everybody wants you to use the lisp majors (hunchentoot, etc)?
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2018-01-22T12:17:51Z Shinmera: hunchentoot is not a web framework.
2018-01-22T12:18:09Z JuanDaugherty: and whosits is?
2018-01-22T12:18:22Z sirkmatija: I am using ningle, not just hunchentoot
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2018-01-22T12:27:08Z jackdaniel: sirkmatija: try putting there an actual pathname
2018-01-22T12:27:15Z jackdaniel: like #P"/foo/bar/file.txt"
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2018-01-22T12:28:36Z jackdaniel: if you are more interested in shipping whole directory of files consider using (:static :path "/public/" :root #P"/my/dir/") as parameter to lack:builder (instead of just making ningle:<app> instance)
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2018-01-22T12:33:36Z sirkmatija: thank you, it serves the file now, but the script isn't found - when i inspect source it say URL /script.js was not found on this server.
2018-01-22T12:34:35Z jackdaniel: are you sure it is under /script.js ? not for instance my-host:8080/my-app/script.js ?
2018-01-22T12:34:47Z jackdaniel: port is important, host is important, absolute path is important
2018-01-22T12:35:37Z sirkmatija: oh I figured it out, thanks
2018-01-22T12:35:40Z jackdaniel: computers are not magic, usually they do exactly what you tell them to do (and when they *do* magic for you, then it is usually a game over [opinionated])
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2018-01-22T12:36:38Z sirkmatija: I thought I don't have to serve the files separately if they are in same dir, a stupid mistake
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2018-01-22T13:10:37Z Shinmera: Just a quick announcement, the emacs package to interact with plaster.tymoon.eu is now on Melpa: https://melpa.org/#/plaster
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2018-01-22T13:23:26Z jdz: Shinmera: Getting much spam yet?
2018-01-22T13:23:52Z Shinmera: Practically none so far
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2018-01-22T13:24:58Z Shinmera: But I'm sure the time will come when I have to add a captcha
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2018-01-22T13:30:21Z beach: Shinmera: I don't use "fukamachiware", because it doesn't solve the problems I want to solve, but from what I hear, people are very impressed with it, so I assumed it was high-quality stuff.  Not so?
2018-01-22T13:30:56Z Shinmera: beach: All of it has one fatal flaw: a severe lack of documentation
2018-01-22T13:31:33Z beach: Ah, I see.  Maybe his English is not good enough.
2018-01-22T13:32:22Z makomo: hello
2018-01-22T13:32:27Z makomo: did fukamachi ever visit #lisp?
2018-01-22T13:32:32Z beach: Hello makomo.
2018-01-22T13:32:35Z Shinmera: Not to my knowledge
2018-01-22T13:32:46Z beach: But he did come to ELS at least once, right?
2018-01-22T13:32:53Z Shinmera: Yes, in London
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2018-01-22T13:33:33Z makomo: how big is ELS usually? (in the number of people that come)
2018-01-22T13:33:50Z beach: Slightly less than 100 usually.
2018-01-22T13:33:52Z Shinmera: I think last year we had just below a hundred people?
2018-01-22T13:34:08Z Shinmera: Above 50 usually though.
2018-01-22T13:34:18Z beach: For many years now, yes.
2018-01-22T13:34:36Z makomo: ah, quite small compared to other conferences, interesting
2018-01-22T13:35:17Z makomo: oh beach, i have a couple more typos to report (hopefully you won't mind me snooping around :-))
2018-01-22T13:35:18Z beach: makomo: Compare to other Common Lisp conferences?  I don't think so.
2018-01-22T13:35:22Z phoe: ^
2018-01-22T13:35:36Z makomo: no, other programming languages conferences
2018-01-22T13:35:47Z Shinmera: I'm looking forward to meeting drmeister, beach, and snmsts again.
2018-01-22T13:36:01Z beach: makomo: Not at all.  If stuff is freely available, it is there for you to read and comment on.
2018-01-22T13:36:04Z makomo: there's only one other lisp conference i know of and that's ILC
2018-01-22T13:36:19Z phoe: except ILC is American, AFAIK.
2018-01-22T13:36:24Z phoe: ELS is its European counterpart.
2018-01-22T13:36:31Z beach: And ILC appears to be dead.
2018-01-22T13:36:36Z Shinmera: phoe: The "I" is for "International"
2018-01-22T13:36:39Z makomo: ^
2018-01-22T13:36:56Z makomo: are there any other lisp conferences?
2018-01-22T13:37:06Z makomo: beach: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html "about how compensate for it"
2018-01-22T13:37:13Z beach: Not just for Lisp, no.
2018-01-22T13:37:18Z makomo: beach: http://metamodular.com/Software-engineering/developer-productivity.html "First, let is"
2018-01-22T13:37:29Z beach: Thanks.
2018-01-22T13:37:30Z makomo: beach: http://metamodular.com/Psychology/continuous-improvement.html "I use computer every day"
2018-01-22T13:37:49Z beach: I could be Polish.
2018-01-22T13:38:06Z makomo: so ELS is the last of its kind :-)
2018-01-22T13:38:24Z phoe: beach: Polish?
2018-01-22T13:38:26Z makomo: hopefully one day i'll be able to visit, it sounds interesting
2018-01-22T13:38:37Z beach: phoe: Omitting articles on singular nouns.
2018-01-22T13:38:48Z phoe: Hah!
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2018-01-22T13:39:02Z beach: makomo: Let's say it's currently the only one.  But who knows, maybe loke and others will create ALS one day.
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2018-01-22T13:39:13Z phoe: ALS?
2018-01-22T13:39:20Z phoe: Arctic Lisp Symposium? (:
2018-01-22T13:39:32Z makomo: beach: http://metamodular.com/Essays/you-know-you-have.text "you use more then" (not sure why i read this one but there you go :-))
2018-01-22T13:39:49Z zazzerino: Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
2018-01-22T13:39:53Z zazzerino: might want a different name...
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2018-01-22T13:40:27Z beach: makomo: Thanks.  Fixing now...
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2018-01-22T13:41:25Z makomo: beach: i agree very much with your essay on pyschology and people being inefficient at the stuff they do (talking about software specifically)
2018-01-22T13:41:32Z makomo: i've observed the same thing many times myself
2018-01-22T13:42:01Z phoe: LOSH: Lisp On Southern Hemisphere
2018-01-22T13:42:10Z phoe: but sjl might have something to say about it {:
2018-01-22T13:42:50Z makomo: however, i managed to get one of my uni friends to try out emacs and he's been actually using it for the last week or so
2018-01-22T13:43:08Z makomo: he also started learning CL. we'll see how far he gets
2018-01-22T13:43:52Z makomo: i've helped him install slime and he's reading pcl currently (started with land of lisp but then i intervened)
2018-01-22T13:44:45Z beach: makomo: Well done.  I know how hard it is to get people to improve.
2018-01-22T13:45:05Z beach: phoe: Asian...
2018-01-22T13:45:16Z phoe: beach: I know, I'm being silly.
2018-01-22T13:45:30Z beach: phoe: Singapore is a bit far from the Arctic.
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2018-01-22T13:45:38Z beach: ... to say the least.
2018-01-22T13:45:43Z phoe: Oh, Antarctic then! :)
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2018-01-22T13:46:11Z beach: Yeah, that's it.
2018-01-22T13:48:03Z makomo: beach: yeah, true. i figured that it's good to try to spread the word and work on "recruiting" new people into the whole hacker culture
2018-01-22T13:48:45Z makomo: there's only so much you can do of course, but still spreading the word is part of "giving back" imo
2018-01-22T13:49:17Z beach: Sure, but my experience is that if you are too eager trying, then it can backfire.
2018-01-22T13:49:20Z makomo: sharing the knowledge you found, etc.
2018-01-22T13:49:23Z makomo: exactly!
2018-01-22T13:49:32Z makomo: that's why i'm trying to be helpful but also not too helpful
2018-01-22T13:49:42Z makomo: i.e. i want *them* to be inetersted, and not me doing all the work
2018-01-22T13:49:43Z beach: It's a delicate balance.
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2018-01-22T13:49:48Z makomo: so i'm trying to stay on the side kind of
2018-01-22T13:49:55Z beach: Yeah, good plan.
2018-01-22T13:50:28Z makomo: yup, i've had it backfire a couple of times :-)
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2018-01-22T13:51:23Z makomo: as much as i'd like to share knowledge, you still have to pick people who you're sharing with carefully
2018-01-22T13:51:27Z makomo: otherwise it's just wasted effort
2018-01-22T13:52:33Z Shinmera feels like he's wasting his effort on this channel more often than he'd like to admit
2018-01-22T13:53:02Z makomo: :-)
2018-01-22T13:53:10Z makomo: maybe that's why fukamachi never visits
2018-01-22T13:54:37Z beach: makomo: Now if you could snoop around in my software documentation as well, that would be great! :)
2018-01-22T13:54:56Z shrdlu68: makomo: Why did you "intervene"?
2018-01-22T13:55:07Z beach: makomo: I just think it is far away, and the trip is expensive.
2018-01-22T13:55:15Z makomo: beach: i hope to do that in time :-). i'm still not at the level i want to be
2018-01-22T13:55:33Z makomo: i've only recently started with CL
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2018-01-22T13:56:00Z makomo: beach: but i do like your approach to documentation -- nicely written and formatted whitepapers, etc.
2018-01-22T13:56:09Z beach: Thanks.
2018-01-22T13:56:36Z makomo: shrdlu68: i feel like PCL is a much better book than LL
2018-01-22T13:57:10Z makomo: of course that's just my opinion, but i had a weird feeling when i was reading LL (i didn't finish it completely though)
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2018-01-22T14:00:14Z jdz: makomo: Be careful with the acronyms – there's another LoL book.
2018-01-22T14:00:26Z makomo: jdz: yeah, that's why i didn't want to use the O :-)
2018-01-22T14:00:34Z makomo: so i used just LL instead
2018-01-22T14:00:46Z beach: So which one do you mean?
2018-01-22T14:00:49Z beach: by LL?
2018-01-22T14:00:59Z makomo: Land of Lisp
2018-01-22T14:01:07Z pjb: LoL because it's like, LOL…
2018-01-22T14:01:12Z makomo: Let Over Lambda has "LOL" spelled out on the front cover also
2018-01-22T14:01:30Z makomo: and also, words like "of", "and", "at", etc. usually aren't part of acronyms
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2018-01-22T14:50:01Z dim: is CASE supposed to “work” on integers?
2018-01-22T14:50:12Z dim: or only with eq, maybe?
2018-01-22T14:50:25Z beach: EQL.
2018-01-22T14:50:29Z beach: So yes, integers are fine.
2018-01-22T14:50:41Z dim: then I can't understand the bug I am looking at
2018-01-22T14:51:04Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2018-01-22T14:51:11Z dim: code is at https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/blob/master/src/mysql-protocol/response-result-set.lisp#L197
2018-01-22T14:51:42Z beach: The case labels aren't evaluated.
2018-01-22T14:51:59Z beach: You would have to precede them with #. for that to work.
2018-01-22T14:52:11Z dim: I have column-type 252, which should be eql to (defconstant +mysql-type-blob+ #xfc) I think, and (column-definition-v41-packet-cs-coll column-definition) is 63, which should be eql to (defconstant +mysql-cs-coll-binary+                    63), and, sorry what?
2018-01-22T14:52:15Z dim: ahah
2018-01-22T14:52:30Z beach: I guess you could do #.(list +...+ +...+)
2018-01-22T14:52:38Z beach: ... rather than doing each one.
2018-01-22T14:52:41Z dim: this code has been wrong for a long time then
2018-01-22T14:52:48Z dim: trying that
2018-01-22T14:52:54Z beach: I would have to take your word for it.
2018-01-22T14:54:10Z dim: since https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/commit/39e17d0fdcf111f7b081d8aff316af084476f198#diff-a7f8d7f40f13983046fa6d0c5bfb2272
2018-01-22T14:54:54Z dim: I though case would be much better than cond and member
2018-01-22T14:55:11Z dim: and the 'otherwise kept it ok in my testing
2018-01-22T14:55:13Z beach: I think SBCL CASE expands to COND.
2018-01-22T14:56:02Z beach: I suppose the logic behind how CASE works is that the compiler should be able to build a hash table, perhaps with perfect hashing, to make the choice real fast.
2018-01-22T14:56:12Z dim: (case (#. (list +mysql-type-string+ +mysql-type-var-string+ +mysql-type-tiny-blob+ +mysql-type-medium-blob+ +mysql-type-long-blob+ +mysql-type-blob+) ...)) doesn't seem to cut it
2018-01-22T14:56:13Z beach: But that assumes that there are A LOT of cases.
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2018-01-22T14:56:44Z jackdaniel: or that the case is called MANY times
2018-01-22T14:56:44Z schweers: Does anyone use cl-launch with CCL?  I’ve been using cl-launch with sbcl for a few months now and wanted to try my code on CCL too.  When I start a repl, load and run my code from there it works.  So thats a good start.  When I use cl-launch I am dropped in a repl too (which doesn’t happen with sbcl).
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2018-01-22T14:57:06Z jackdaniel: alexandria has switch, but it doesn't allow specifying many elements (just one, but it is evaluated)
2018-01-22T14:57:08Z dim: jackdaniel: the case here is called MANY times
2018-01-22T14:57:25Z dim: should I build my own hash table?!
2018-01-22T14:57:28Z jackdaniel: dim: I know, that's why using case + #. is a better choice than cond + member
2018-01-22T14:57:30Z beach: jackdaniel: That is not enough if the CASE would take longer if a hash table were used.
2018-01-22T14:57:41Z schweers: also, when I try to run my code from this cl-launch induced repl CCL bails out because the heap is exhausted (which does not happen when I use a repl directly).
2018-01-22T14:57:47Z Shinmera: in some cases a jump table would also work
2018-01-22T14:58:09Z dim: but the #. (list +...+ ) doesn't seem to work, so either I tried it wrong again, or maybe I am testing the code I didn't edit
2018-01-22T14:58:25Z beach: It should work.
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2018-01-22T14:58:49Z dim: ok the function was inlined, so recompiling it was not helping
2018-01-22T14:59:04Z dim: IOW, I wasn't tested the code I wrote
2018-01-22T14:59:44Z dim: I was about to say "and now it's pretty slow",               jira.plugindata          0         45   343.8 MB         44.985s
2018-01-22T14:59:50Z dim: maybe not that slow
2018-01-22T15:00:29Z _death: beach: it may not work, because the value may not be available during read time
2018-01-22T15:00:31Z beach: I suppose if the labels are rational numbers, a technique similar to my fast generic dispatch could be used.  That could be a big win.
2018-01-22T15:00:34Z jackdaniel: right, hash-table proves beneficial over linear search above some threshold
2018-01-22T15:00:46Z beach: _death: sure.
2018-01-22T15:00:56Z beach: _death: I guess dim will find out.
2018-01-22T15:01:12Z dim: there are 11 “cases” (entries) to check against, plus a catch-all
2018-01-22T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: sbcl makes constants available at read time (if defined at the same file), ccl doesn't - both behaviors are conforming
2018-01-22T15:01:29Z _death: beach: dim could eval-when his defconstants
2018-01-22T15:01:46Z jackdaniel: to make code portable (while having defconstant) using eval-when is the solution
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2018-01-22T15:02:04Z beach: _death: Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, because I saw no trace of the definitions in the same file, so I assumed they existed already.
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2018-01-22T15:03:02Z beach: With 11 cases, it could definitely benefit from a technique like my fast generic dispatch, provided the entries are numbers, of course.
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2018-01-22T15:03:13Z beach: er, real numbers.
2018-01-22T15:03:58Z _death: a tree case analysis or some perfect hash-table thingy may work, if it's even needed (profile first)
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2018-01-22T15:05:21Z pjb: xb
2018-01-22T15:05:24Z pjb: Oops.
2018-01-22T15:05:31Z beach: _death: A tree (or rather binary search using constants) is what my fast generic dispatch uses, simply because it is faster than trying to store some data structure in memory.
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2018-01-22T15:06:19Z _death: beach: yeah, with such a small number of cases it makes sense
2018-01-22T15:07:01Z beach: It makes sense even when the number of cases is large, because the number of comparisons only grows logarithmically.
2018-01-22T15:07:27Z beach: So you would need thousands of cases in order for it to be slower than a few memory accesses.
2018-01-22T15:07:52Z _death: beach: if memory is accessed then you've lost the benefit
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2018-01-22T15:08:18Z beach: That's what I am saying.  My technique does not access memory, but a perfect hashing scheme would.
2018-01-22T15:08:33Z _death: beach: we are in agreement :)
2018-01-22T15:08:43Z beach: Good.
2018-01-22T15:08:51Z dim: patches welcome and appreciated guys!
2018-01-22T15:09:03Z dim: I just fixed with #. (list ...) for now
2018-01-22T15:09:10Z beach: Did it work?
2018-01-22T15:09:13Z _death: someone should port gperf to CL
2018-01-22T15:09:16Z dim: it did, thanks a lot!
2018-01-22T15:09:19Z beach: Sure.
2018-01-22T15:09:37Z dim: I don't think that code path is the most prominent to fix in qmynd btw, but it'd be nice to improve it some more
2018-01-22T15:10:40Z dim: 27.857s instead of 45s when using SBCL rather than CCL
2018-01-22T15:10:47Z beach: This discussion did give me the idea that I should implement CASE like that in SICL (for the case of real numbers).
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2018-01-22T15:11:03Z dim: +1 ;-)
2018-01-22T15:11:12Z beach: [*sigh*] so much work, so little time.
2018-01-22T15:11:23Z dim: then how to we make such improvements reach through SBCL/CCL/others?
2018-01-22T15:11:31Z Shinmera: beach: real numbers and characters.
2018-01-22T15:11:38Z beach: Yes, that too.
2018-01-22T15:11:50Z beach: dim: You buy the maintainers a beer (or some wine) at ELS.
2018-01-22T15:12:11Z _death: beach: it reminds me of pkhuong's string-case.. and I wouldn't be surprised if I encountered more case operators like it in the past
2018-01-22T15:12:14Z dim: by the way with the fix the MySQL read now takes 2s while writing to PostgreSQL takes the 27s (in another thread)
2018-01-22T15:12:43Z beach: _death: Sure, that would be valuable.
2018-01-22T15:12:45Z dim: so my current performance problem is to do with format-vector-row if some of you guys want to play around
2018-01-22T15:12:49Z dim: low handing fruits there
2018-01-22T15:13:03Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pgsql/copy-format.lisp
2018-01-22T15:13:27Z dim: dead easy to improve, but last I tried I broke the whole of pgloader, for wanting to do too many optimizations at once
2018-01-22T15:18:14Z _death: should split it into several functions.. and btw you can (reduce ... :key ...) instead of (reduce ... (map ...))
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2018-01-22T15:22:38Z dim: want to send a patch? ;-)
2018-01-22T15:23:22Z dim: in (reduce '+ (map 'list #'col-length pgrow)), pgrow is a vector
2018-01-22T15:23:39Z dim: can I reduce :key on a vector?
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2018-01-22T15:24:15Z _death: (reduce #'+ pgrow :key #'col-length)
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2018-01-22T15:26:47Z phoe: clhs reduce
2018-01-22T15:26:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
2018-01-22T15:27:00Z phoe: reduce accepts a sequence, therefore it can accept a vector.
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2018-01-22T15:28:20Z dim: cool, thanks, I missed that I guess
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2018-01-22T15:29:06Z dim: I must have also considered :key for class/struct slot accesses, in my mind, but the API is way more generic than that
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2018-01-22T15:30:28Z dim: then there's a huge optimisation (I think) to be done here by only considering UTF-8 convertions for text based datatypes
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2018-01-22T15:31:28Z dim: and then another idea is to avoid batching altogether in the db-2-db case for pgloader, as error handling then should be taken care of at the source db rather than with a reject file
2018-01-22T15:31:31Z dim: oh my.
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2018-01-22T15:37:48Z _death: hope you got automatic fixmind->bigmind transition or you're gonna overflow ;)
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2018-01-22T15:39:27Z dim: what's that?
2018-01-22T15:39:36Z _death: a joke
2018-01-22T15:39:49Z dim: didn't get it
2018-01-22T15:40:21Z dim: is there any point in building a single vector of bytes compared to a vector of vector of bytes, on a pure performance standpoint?
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2018-01-22T15:40:59Z Shinmera: Uh, well, you have to pass two indirections if you have two vectors nested.
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2018-01-22T15:41:05Z _death: such questions are best left to the profiler
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2018-01-22T17:07:51Z rumbler31: with (setq *print-radix* t), (CCL:MAKE-SOCKET :REMOTE-HOST "beta.quicklisp.org" :REMOTE-PORT 80) fails with bt https://pastebin.com/1ZQK1qQu
2018-01-22T17:08:01Z rumbler31: is this a known bug?
2018-01-22T17:08:30Z rumbler31: derp wrong window
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2018-01-22T17:12:51Z rumbler31: looking to run the fast-io tests.  I'm not familiar with many testing frameworks yet, but it doesn't look like an asdf test-op is defined for fast-io.  How do I go about... running the tests?
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2018-01-22T18:22:07Z rumbler31: everyone's quiet today
2018-01-22T18:23:18Z Xach: Busy!
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2018-01-22T18:26:53Z sjl: rumbler31: (asdf:test-system :fast-io) maybe
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2018-01-22T18:35:18Z flip214: Can I pass multiple :long-name options to CLON:DEFSYNOPSIS, so that any one of the long names can be used? Ie. aliases?
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2018-01-22T18:37:58Z rumbler31: sjl: no dice, tried a few versions of that.  oh well
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2018-01-22T18:38:45Z sjl: rumbler31: as far as I know that's the intended way to run tests for an ASDF system.  if fast-io does it differently, they should document it.
2018-01-22T18:39:20Z rumbler31: so i've been looking for machinery for that, I expect that the test-op function to call would be explicitly defined in the .asd file right?
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2018-01-22T18:41:47Z sjl: ah it looks like they do some... "interesting" things in the test definition
2018-01-22T18:42:49Z sjl: the define the tests in a separate system, like a lot of systems do, to avoid having to load the unit test framework to use the main system
2018-01-22T18:43:07Z sjl: usually when you do that, you add an :in-order-to to the main system like this https://github.com/sjl/cl-digraph/blob/master/cl-digraph.asd#L11
2018-01-22T18:43:38Z shka: good evening
2018-01-22T18:43:53Z sjl: they have https://github.com/rpav/fast-io/blob/master/fast-io-test.asd
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2018-01-22T18:44:10Z sjl: which eval-when's a couple load-system calls
2018-01-22T18:44:39Z sjl: which will break unless you've quickloaded them at least once
2018-01-22T18:44:45Z rumbler31: yea, ran right into that one
2018-01-22T18:45:01Z sjl: and then does (checkl:define-test-op :fast-io :fast-io-test) to I think add the in-order-to?
2018-01-22T18:45:46Z sjl: I dunno, it's weird and non-standard and won't work like most people expect -- (progn (ql:quickload :fast-io) (asdf:test-system :fast-io)) won't work without other stuff
2018-01-22T18:45:50Z sjl: I'd file a bug
2018-01-22T18:46:37Z Xach: asdf:test-system is a relatively recent thing.
2018-01-22T18:46:55Z Xach: I like that it exists, but it hasn't been the way to do it since forever.
2018-01-22T18:47:06Z sjl: or whatever it's a shortcut for
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2018-01-22T18:47:21Z Xach: I also find the way to set it up a bit cumbersome. Kind of a throwback to the (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) days.
2018-01-22T18:47:33Z Xach: and the suggestion to embed uiop in the system file also rubs me the wrong way.
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2018-01-22T18:48:28Z Xach: But, it is pretty ok
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2018-01-22T18:50:08Z rumbler31: so the answer seems to be that the authors usage of checkl in the -test.asd means that the correct answer to run tests is to invoke (run-all).  Although the output doesn't suggest success or failure on my system.  Thanks all
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2018-01-22T18:56:40Z rumbler31: sjl: great documentation on your digraph library btw
2018-01-22T18:57:35Z sjl: thanks
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2018-01-22T19:03:54Z rumbler31: minion: memo for antonv: theoretically, if you wish to send a udp packet to a multicast address, you shouldn't need any more os support.  The magic comes when you try to tell the os that you care to receive packets from certain multicast addresses
2018-01-22T19:03:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell antonv when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-22T19:05:35Z rumbler31: minion: memo for antonv: there were some patches for ccl on the mailing list long ago that added support for multicast sockets.  Sending to multicast addresses *may* *just work* though
2018-01-22T19:05:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell antonv when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-22T20:39:30Z dim: ok, I simplified https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pgsql/copy-format.lisp a lot, made several simpler functions and all, and I won some low-% of perfs at that
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2018-01-22T20:39:50Z dim: so now that it's easier to review, I hope some perfs guru will get interested into either giving advices or sending patches ;-)
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2018-01-22T20:44:51Z AeroNotix: dim: do you have an example input set you're using? How are you benchmarking?
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2018-01-22T20:46:18Z AeroNotix: Wonder if simple application of type declarations and safety 0 would get anything.
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2018-01-22T20:47:34Z AeroNotix: dim: why not just filter the list of funs prior to the loop? https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pgsql/copy-format.lisp#L52
2018-01-22T20:47:45Z shrdlu68: Is (safety 0) ever used in production?
2018-01-22T20:48:01Z AeroNotix: shrdlu68: no idea, I've never used it I was asking a question
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2018-01-22T20:50:42Z dim: AeroNotix: bencmarking consists of using pgloader to load data into PostgreSQL or migrate a whole database from MySQL, the function format-vector-row is called with every single row that's loaded
2018-01-22T20:50:54Z dim: if you have a big'o'CSV file that'd be a nice use-case
2018-01-22T20:51:14Z dim: but anyway, some people had comments earlier on the previous version of the function, that I addressed, and it was good comments ;-)
2018-01-22T20:51:38Z AeroNotix: dim: Yes I know, i was reading before, thought I'd read through it now you've cleaned the code up. Before it was rather unwieldy to read.
2018-01-22T20:53:28Z dim: yeah, exactly ;-)
2018-01-22T20:53:36Z dim: (and to maintain, too)
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2018-01-22T20:55:56Z AeroNotix: dim: does it need to be modified in an in-memory vector rather than streaming directly to file?
2018-01-22T20:56:27Z dim: yes, although I'm wonderting about that again
2018-01-22T20:56:53Z dim: the idea is that we use the high performance COPY protocol of PostgreSQL, which allows streaming data (in and out of the database)
2018-01-22T20:57:09Z dim: the thing is that COPY is (of course) transactional, so any error aborts the whole transaction
2018-01-22T20:57:15Z AeroNotix: yes
2018-01-22T20:57:26Z AeroNotix: just thinking it might be possible to instead directly perform the COPY
2018-01-22T20:57:35Z dim: pgloader works around transaction rollback and replay the good input, rejecting the bad one, so that you can get your data in
2018-01-22T20:57:38Z AeroNotix: instead of creating and messing with in-memory vectors, then streaming it
2018-01-22T20:57:54Z dim: in-memory vectors are used to replay the batches that are rejected by PostgreSQL
2018-01-22T20:58:07Z AeroNotix: ohh, ok. So maybe to retain that feature you can't stream it directly. Might be a good option to provide though :)
2018-01-22T20:58:22Z dim: when that happens we have ready-to-go data in memory, and also we know that the COPY offset reported in the PostgreSQL is the array offset in the batch
2018-01-22T20:58:30Z dim: that's quite a nice property to have, for all it costs
2018-01-22T20:58:35Z AeroNotix: indeed it is
2018-01-22T20:58:46Z AeroNotix: I hate loading shit into pg for it to fail at some point.
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2018-01-22T20:59:07Z dim: now I'm thinking that in the case when you migrate from a source database to PostgreSQL, you don't want any reject file, you'd rather --on-error-stop (the option exists)
2018-01-22T20:59:23Z AeroNotix: possibly
2018-01-22T20:59:28Z dim: and then you either fix your load command (casting rules, mostly), or fix the input database
2018-01-22T20:59:49Z dim: (get rid of bad data, or fix wrong data that you kept unnoticed)
2018-01-22T21:00:38Z dim: so I'm thinking that --on-error-stop should 1. be the default if the source of the data is a database server and 2. make it so that we don't use the in-memory batches at all but rather stream the data to PostgreSQL directly
2018-01-22T21:00:44Z dim: want to see about cooking a patch? ;-)
2018-01-22T21:00:58Z AeroNotix: I've been working all day, just armchair optimizing here :)
2018-01-22T21:01:05Z AeroNotix: tired as anything
2018-01-22T21:01:50Z dim: hehe, fair enough
2018-01-22T21:02:12Z AeroNotix: I've come across pgloader before a few times. Glad to see it's still being worked on.
2018-01-22T21:02:48Z dim: it's my side project... i
2018-01-22T21:02:57Z dim: I'd like for it to be more than a side project, but well
2018-01-22T21:03:36Z dim: well the White Paper has been downloaded some already, which proves interest, and also that's tooling for the Enterprise, not much use at home
2018-01-22T21:03:40Z AeroNotix: dim: you already have a good place to filter functions here: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/3bb128c5db9fc7b8926586113aa1b97c59a7b457/src/pgsql/copy-from-queue.lisp#L124-L126
2018-01-22T21:03:58Z AeroNotix: I don't see why https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/3bb128c5db9fc7b8926586113aa1b97c59a7b457/src/pgsql/copy-format.lisp#L52 needs to be conditional
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2018-01-22T21:04:28Z dim: I'm thinking it's easier to have a function per column
2018-01-22T21:04:46Z dim: I could use #'identity I guess, but I'd be surprised if it came to a benefit in terms of performance
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2018-01-22T21:05:30Z AeroNotix: I was going to mention #'identity. My thinking is that it's part of your inner loop, could be ran quite a lot on a huge input
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2018-01-22T21:09:00Z AeroNotix: depends if you want to micro-optimize :)
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2018-01-22T21:11:05Z AeroNotix: didn't read the whole scrollback but is using a vector like this optimal? Even ignoring what i mentioned before about streaming directly to PG, is it not faster to stream bytes to an in memory buffer instead of writing bytes to vector offsets and incrementing an index?
2018-01-22T21:14:47Z shrdlu68: Sounds like the same thing to me...
2018-01-22T21:15:37Z AeroNotix: except one takes care of things for you regarding where you are in the stream etc.
2018-01-22T21:17:48Z dim: I followed the design of Postmodern here, because it looked good to me and the author looks like he knows what he's doing
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2018-01-22T21:18:33Z AeroNotix: fair enough, I'm more asking questions as well as offering what could help. I've never had to properly optimize a CL program just thinking what works in other languages
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2018-01-22T21:19:10Z dim: I also tried to apply PAIP wisdom, that's when I failed last time
2018-01-22T21:19:21Z dim: now that the code is easier to hack I might try again
2018-01-22T21:19:32Z AeroNotix: hmm, think I hate that book somewhere
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2018-01-22T21:21:34Z dim: next proper step is profiling anyway
2018-01-22T21:21:53Z AeroNotix: cool, will be interesting to see.
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2018-01-22T21:29:39Z dim: yeah, not tonight tho, AFK time I think
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2018-01-22T21:38:33Z paule32: hello
2018-01-22T21:39:10Z paule32: is it possible to get the (defparameter foo-bar (...
2018-01-22T21:39:14Z paule32: foo name?
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2018-01-22T21:39:39Z jasom: paule32: I don't understand the question
2018-01-22T21:39:51Z paule32: as example:
2018-01-22T21:40:09Z paule32: you have a stdin readin function
2018-01-22T21:40:25Z paule32: that can user type data like "this is foo"
2018-01-22T21:40:35Z paule32: now, the question is
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2018-01-22T21:41:25Z paule32: is the name "foo" from the string supportable to get the name of a "defparameter" struct?
2018-01-22T21:41:34Z paule32: i type in "a foo"
2018-01-22T21:42:14Z paule32: and then get the content of (defparameter foo-bar (("1") ("2")))
2018-01-22T21:42:43Z AeroNotix: seems like a mess
2018-01-22T21:42:58Z paule32: or in other words:
2018-01-22T21:43:02Z AeroNotix: paule32: what are you trying to do apart from make a weird stringly typed program
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2018-01-22T21:43:34Z paule32: you have a string: "the car is red"
2018-01-22T21:43:55Z paule32: now, you have the defparameter list "car-table"
2018-01-22T21:44:05Z AeroNotix: where did "-table" come from?
2018-01-22T21:44:15Z AeroNotix: sounds like you want to write a parser/language
2018-01-22T21:44:25Z paule32: yes
2018-01-22T21:44:42Z AeroNotix: But why use defparameter?
2018-01-22T21:44:51Z paule32: better things?
2018-01-22T21:45:34Z AeroNotix: a better option if writing a language "vm" of sorts is have a datastructure to hold the mappings of sub language variables to implementation level objects
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2018-01-22T21:45:41Z AeroNotix: e.g. hash-table is a simple one to implement
2018-01-22T21:46:22Z AeroNotix: rather than trying to generate defparameters from user input, parse the user input and maintain a mapping in a different datastructure and do lookups at the runtime of your program.
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2018-01-22T21:52:20Z AeroNotix: but to answer your question, you could write something horrible with FIND-SYMBOL or something. Have fun
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2018-01-22T21:53:20Z paule32: hehe
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2018-01-22T21:53:31Z paule32: thank you
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2018-01-22T21:54:51Z paule32: (mapcar #'abs '(1 -2 3)  => (1 2 3)
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2018-01-22T21:55:38Z paule32: ok
2018-01-22T21:55:42Z paule32: get it
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2018-01-22T22:10:30Z mishoo: anyone else having trouble loading ironclad (via quicklisp) on latest SBCL?
2018-01-22T22:11:11Z jfb4 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-01-22T22:11:18Z mishoo: I get this:
2018-01-22T22:11:20Z mishoo: The value
2018-01-22T22:11:20Z mishoo:   #()
2018-01-22T22:11:20Z mishoo: is not of type
2018-01-22T22:11:20Z mishoo:   (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*))
2018-01-22T22:11:29Z mishoo: on this line: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/blob/master/src/public-key/ed448.lisp#L48
2018-01-22T22:11:34Z mfiano: Is your Quicklisp dist up to date?
2018-01-22T22:11:35Z mishoo: I'd call it a compiler bug..
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2018-01-22T22:11:57Z mishoo: yeah, I ran (ql:update-all-dists) after recompiling SBCL
2018-01-22T22:12:01Z jmercouris: Is there way to do something like (read-line) and pre-fill a value in the user's terminal?
2018-01-22T22:12:15Z jmercouris: like (print "some prompt") (setf value (read-line))
2018-01-22T22:12:18Z mishoo: and then removed ~/.cache/common-lisp
2018-01-22T22:12:28Z AeroNotix: mishoo: latest quicklisp -> (ql:quickload :ironclad) -> no issues. From "http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/ironclad/2017-11-30/ironclad-v0.37.tgz
2018-01-22T22:12:30Z jmercouris: and the user would see "some prompt", then "default value"
2018-01-22T22:12:57Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Common Lisp has streams, not terminals.
2018-01-22T22:13:14Z Shinmera: If you want terminals, you'll need to use something else like a curses binding.
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2018-01-22T22:13:47Z jmercouris: Maybe I should just wrap the read-line with a default value
2018-01-22T22:14:47Z Shinmera: jmercouris: I use this https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-bootstrap/blob/master/boot.lisp#L39
2018-01-22T22:15:05Z jmercouris: yeah that looks good
2018-01-22T22:15:10Z jmercouris: I'll do something similar but simpler
2018-01-22T22:15:15Z jmercouris: thanks for sharing
2018-01-22T22:15:22Z mishoo: AeroNotix: maybe it depends on SBCL version?
2018-01-22T22:15:40Z mishoo: I'm on 1.4.3.290-c5db3dca7, but I tried 1.4.3 too — same results
2018-01-22T22:16:14Z mishoo: anywayz. late night here, will look more closely into it tomorrow..
2018-01-22T22:16:17Z mfiano: I would not call it a compiler bug.
2018-01-22T22:16:22Z mfiano: It works fine here on 1.4.3
2018-01-22T22:16:55Z AeroNotix: mishoo: sbcl 1.4.0 here
2018-01-22T22:17:19Z AeroNotix: also ironclad takes years to quickload. Yikes
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2018-01-22T22:18:10Z pagnol: I'm on sbcl 1.4.3 and didn't notice anything unusual
2018-01-22T22:18:11Z mishoo: yeah, it's the slowest lib to load.. even when it doesn't. :)
2018-01-22T22:18:43Z shrdlu68: Takes a while to _compile_
2018-01-22T22:20:10Z mfiano: On older hardware it does. It's doing some expensive macro expansion before compile time.
2018-01-22T22:20:14Z mishoo: I thought it's a compiler bug because the compiler whines about #() not being a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))
2018-01-22T22:20:44Z mishoo: but that's an empty array.. I thought it should be as good as any simple-array with no defined length
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2018-01-22T22:21:21Z Bike: nope.
2018-01-22T22:21:35Z mfiano: An empty array can still have an element type
2018-01-22T22:21:36Z Bike: #() is a (simple-array t), which is a distinct thing from a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
2018-01-22T22:22:15Z mishoo: then the compiler is right and ironclad is wrong → https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/blob/master/src/public-key/ed448.lisp#L35-L48
2018-01-22T22:23:23Z shrdlu68: Bike: What about (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (0))?
2018-01-22T22:23:53Z Bike: what about it?
2018-01-22T22:24:28Z shrdlu68: (print (make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) -> #()
2018-01-22T22:24:41Z shrdlu68: Yet type-of says it's (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (0))
2018-01-22T22:24:46Z Bike: try it with *print-readably* t
2018-01-22T22:24:56Z Bike: mishoo: yeah, looks like ironclad is wrong there.
2018-01-22T22:25:13Z mfiano: `type-of` is implementation-dependent
2018-01-22T22:25:15Z paule32: hello
2018-01-22T22:25:17Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/HSe4huTP
2018-01-22T22:25:29Z paule32: how can i check, if 2 lists the same?
2018-01-22T22:25:38Z mishoo: but that used to work fine before SBCL 1.4.x
2018-01-22T22:26:10Z mishoo: (I was on 1.3.x before the upgrade)
2018-01-22T22:26:35Z Bike: mfiano: yes, but in this case it's fine
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2018-01-22T22:26:39Z mfiano: Aye
2018-01-22T22:27:11Z mfiano: Anyway, (let ((a (make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))) (list a (typep a '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))))) #| => (#() T) |#
2018-01-22T22:28:10Z shrdlu68: That's consistent with my world-view.
2018-01-22T22:28:20Z pagnol: paule32, define 'same'
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2018-01-22T22:29:21Z paule32: pagnol: pseudo code:  IF content-listA = content-listB THEN result = true ELSE false
2018-01-22T22:30:03Z pagnol: paule32, there's object identity and equality
2018-01-22T22:30:21Z pagnol: paule32, for example (eq (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) => NIL
2018-01-22T22:30:32Z pagnol: because those lists are two distinct objects
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2018-01-22T22:30:42Z paule32: ok
2018-01-22T22:30:49Z pagnol: however (equalp (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) => T
2018-01-22T22:31:00Z pagnol: what's your language background?
2018-01-22T22:31:09Z paule32: c++, delphi
2018-01-22T22:31:24Z pagnol: then EQ compares the pointers
2018-01-22T22:31:58Z paule32: thank you
2018-01-22T22:32:45Z pagnol: when it comes to lists you may want to know that the LIST function always creates a new object
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2018-01-22T22:33:05Z Bike: mfiano: that's just because the writer is oversimplifying. two things having the same textual representation doesn't make them the same.
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2018-01-22T22:33:51Z Bike: mfiano: if you try (write (make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) :readably t) you'll get more specific output.
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2018-01-22T22:36:29Z Bike: and (typep #() '(array (unsigned-byte 8))), straightforwardly enough
2018-01-22T22:36:35Z Bike: er, => NIL
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2018-01-22T22:37:18Z shrdlu68: That, of course, depends on what the reader makes of #()
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2018-01-22T22:38:07Z mishoo: Bike: I kinda agree, on an implementation standpoint, that sets must consider the types of their elements.  but IMO an empty set should be the same as an empty set.
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2018-01-22T22:38:33Z paule32: pagnol: https://pastebin.com/ngZMWBi7
2018-01-22T22:38:33Z Bike: they're arrays, not sets.
2018-01-22T22:38:41Z paule32: pagnol: i get nil
2018-01-22T22:38:45Z Bike: shrdlu68: it does not. #() is defined to return an array of element type T.
2018-01-22T22:38:47Z Bike: clhs #(
2018-01-22T22:38:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm
2018-01-22T22:39:04Z Bike: (click "simple vector")
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2018-01-22T22:39:09Z shrdlu68: The point, I think, was that Ironclad could not be faulting for receiving a zero-length octet vector where it expects an octet vector of any length.
2018-01-22T22:39:21Z mishoo: alright, arrays.  an empty array of any type should pass type-checking for (array-of-certain-type)
2018-01-22T22:39:39Z shrdlu68: Bike: I see, in that case the results are unambiguous.
2018-01-22T22:39:43Z Bike: it's not receiving a zero length octet vector, it's receiving a zero length T vector, and these are distinct objects
2018-01-22T22:40:08Z pagnol: paule32, if you prepend an apostrophe ' to a form, the it's treated as data
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2018-01-22T22:40:25Z mishoo: Bike: you're pedantic :) can we agree that (EQ NIL NIL)?
2018-01-22T22:40:32Z pagnol: paule32, in your case you want to call the LIST function with arguments 3, 2, 1
2018-01-22T22:40:49Z Bike: i'm pedantic because i want people to understand why the compiler is complaining.
2018-01-22T22:41:11Z Bike: on that subject, regardless of how you think it should work - and i'm not rejecting your opinion there - the standard is pretty clear that being zero length is not a factor here.
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2018-01-22T22:42:49Z pagnol: paule32, you also probably want to look up what MAPCAR actually does
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2018-01-22T22:43:03Z paule32: pagnol: ok, but always nil
2018-01-22T22:43:07Z mishoo: well to sum it up, I'd just like ironclad to load here.  I'll look tomorrow for possible fixes.
2018-01-22T22:43:21Z Bike: Replace #() with #.(make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2018-01-22T22:43:31Z Bike: i will be the first to admit this is super ugly
2018-01-22T22:43:39Z mishoo: ... and get that patch in, and wait for a new QL distro
2018-01-22T22:44:08Z mishoo: but that's not the issue
2018-01-22T22:44:18Z mishoo: I do believe SBCL should be more forgiving about this case
2018-01-22T22:44:33Z mishoo: an empty array should pass element type-checking
2018-01-22T22:44:43Z Shinmera: No
2018-01-22T22:45:00Z Bike: that would violate the standard.
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2018-01-22T22:45:40Z shrdlu68: The compiler is telling mishoo that an object which prints as "#()" is not of type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
2018-01-22T22:45:55Z Bike: because it isn't.
2018-01-22T22:45:59Z Bike: the printer is oversimplifying.
2018-01-22T22:46:08Z shrdlu68: Yes, we're in agreement.
2018-01-22T22:46:33Z mishoo: possibly the only issue is that you can *modify* an array, even when empty
2018-01-22T22:46:36Z pagnol: paule32, as I said, EQ is fore object identity
2018-01-22T22:46:56Z mishoo: but as far as I can tell, #() is decided ad read-time
2018-01-22T22:46:57Z shrdlu68: What we don't seem to be in agreement over is whether that object could be a zero-length octet vector.
2018-01-22T22:47:53Z Bike: the issue is that arrays of different specializations can be completely different kinds of objects. for example it would be fine for sbcl to store the length of a ub8 vector at a different place from the length of a t vector. then it could compile code that's known to get an ub8 vector (like this) to use the first offset and not check to see if it has to use the second.
2018-01-22T22:47:55Z Bike: for example.
2018-01-22T22:48:30Z pagnol: paule32, I'm sure if you open a repl and play around with mapcar and eq/equalp a little, you will find the mistake yourself
2018-01-22T22:48:55Z paule32: ok
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2018-01-22T22:51:20Z pfdietz_: And then there's NIL element type arrays. :)
2018-01-22T22:51:20Z shrdlu68: Looking at the source, there's actually "#()" there. Yeah, that's bound to get flagged by the compiler.
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2018-01-22T22:52:25Z mishoo: okay, we at least established that it's not some weird thing happening on my machine only, but a legitimate error from SBCL (surprised no one else complained thus far)
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2018-01-22T22:55:27Z shrdlu68: mishoo: Why did you link to glv2/ironclad? Contemporary ironclad use sharplispers/ironclad.
2018-01-22T22:55:51Z mishoo: just googled, but let me see the other version
2018-01-22T22:56:22Z mishoo: looks pretty much the same: https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad/blob/master/src/public-key/ed448.lisp#L35-L48
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2018-01-22T22:57:28Z mishoo: I feel SBCL could be smarter about this, because #(...) is consed at read-time
2018-01-22T22:57:37Z mishoo: if it has length zero then it should pass the type-check
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2018-01-22T22:58:18Z shrdlu68: Then it would be too smart for its own good.
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2018-01-22T23:02:39Z paule32: (defun pruefeListe (inhalt) (print (equal *benutzerInhalt* inhalt)))
2018-01-22T23:02:39Z paule32: (pruefeListe '(3 2 1))
2018-01-22T23:02:49Z paule32: this will work
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2018-01-22T23:03:51Z jmercouris: paule32: seit wie lange lernst du lisp?
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2018-01-22T23:04:42Z paule32: hi jmercouris: not long, testing some things
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2018-01-22T23:05:45Z pagnol: jmercouris, you're not German, are you?
2018-01-22T23:06:02Z jmercouris: pagnol: No, I'm not, but he's ignored my questions in english before
2018-01-22T23:06:18Z jmercouris: I speak german as my fourth language, so not so well, but enough to get by
2018-01-22T23:06:22Z pagnol: ok, I just wanted to verify my intuition that a German would never use 'seit wie lange'
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2018-01-22T23:06:37Z jmercouris: they may say seit wann instead
2018-01-22T23:06:41Z jmercouris: but I tend to mix things up all the time
2018-01-22T23:06:51Z pagnol: what are the other three?
2018-01-22T23:07:02Z pagnol: apart from English obviously ;-)
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2018-01-22T23:07:09Z jmercouris: greek is my first language, and then spanish is my third language
2018-01-22T23:07:18Z mishoo: the change that Bike suggested works [ #.(make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) ]
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2018-01-22T23:08:06Z shrdlu68: mishoo: It's strange that only you caught that bug, and while trying to load at that.
2018-01-22T23:08:56Z mishoo: I started from scratch, maybe that's why (ended up removing ~/quicklisp as well)
2018-01-22T23:09:41Z shrdlu68: I suspect so, whenever I start from scratch I always get problems loading static-vectors.
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2018-01-22T23:11:10Z shrdlu68: That doesn't explain it, though. Still strange.
2018-01-22T23:11:25Z mishoo: yeah
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2018-01-22T23:12:18Z mishoo: try this..  either on some fresh VM, if you have one, or on your main account if you can afford it :) rm -rf .cache && rm -rf quicklisp
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2018-01-22T23:12:29Z mishoo: and then compile SBCL from git
2018-01-22T23:12:30Z jmercouris: careful with rm -rf
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2018-01-22T23:12:45Z mishoo: and then install quicklisp with the official instructions
2018-01-22T23:12:56Z mishoo: and then (ql:quickload "ironclad")
2018-01-22T23:12:59Z paule32: i have to go
2018-01-22T23:13:01Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Eh, it refuses to do anything drastic these days.
2018-01-22T23:13:02Z mishoo: that's pretty much that I did
2018-01-22T23:13:10Z paule32: thx to helping hands around
2018-01-22T23:13:23Z shrdlu68: paule32: Tchuss
2018-01-22T23:13:26Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: No, that's not true :)
2018-01-22T23:13:36Z jmercouris: I've had many a good times, with rm in recent memory
2018-01-22T23:13:39Z jmercouris: I suggest: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30208863/how-to-enable-confirmation-alert-when-using-rm-command-to-delete-files-folde
2018-01-22T23:14:01Z shrdlu68: So we could all be running buggy libs until one of us deletes "~/quicklisp"...
2018-01-22T23:14:13Z jmercouris: *nose goes*
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2018-01-23T01:31:15Z pillton: aeth: I looked in to named and inlined specializations over the weekend. A few things were fixed as a result.
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2018-01-23T01:48:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've not visited in a while, any cool personal projects in progress?
2018-01-23T01:49:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm still rolling around the idea of a small 2D CAD but I'd have to choose a GUI first. :P
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2018-01-23T04:59:27Z aeth: Hmm... ASDF package-inferred-system loses license information in the systems that it automatically creates, i.e. if you run something automated to get the license of everything, the primary system will have a license, but the others won't. Lots of NIL licenses that technically have a license.
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2018-01-23T05:16:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-23T05:18:14Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2018-01-23T06:39:14Z aeth: pillton: Great! What was the bug when it was both named and inlined that was fixed in c6bd893?
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2018-01-23T08:54:44Z heisig: Good morning!
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2018-01-23T09:00:34Z beach: Hello heisig.
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2018-01-23T09:02:53Z heisig works on his ELS paper
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2018-01-23T09:50:29Z phoe: Morning
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2018-01-23T10:05:37Z tomlukeywood: how dose one get the length of an array in clisp?
2018-01-23T10:06:16Z Shinmera: clhs length
2018-01-23T10:06:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm
2018-01-23T10:06:22Z tomlukeywood: ty
2018-01-23T10:11:43Z beach: tomlukeywood: It is not a CLISP thing.  It is in the Common Lisp standard.
2018-01-23T10:12:30Z beach: tomlukeywood: Or, perhaps you were using "clisp" as an abbreviation for Common Lisp?  CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp.  If you want to abbreviate Common Lisp, then it is better to use CL.
2018-01-23T10:13:21Z beach: tomlukeywood: LENGTH is only defined for sequences, so if your array has more than one dimension, it won't work.
2018-01-23T10:14:34Z beach: clhs array-total-size
2018-01-23T10:14:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_tot.htm
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2018-01-23T10:45:49Z dmiles: clhs symbol-macro
2018-01-23T10:45:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for symbol-macro.
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2018-01-23T10:46:31Z jdz: dmiles: did you want define-symbol-bacro?
2018-01-23T10:46:36Z jdz: macro even.
2018-01-23T10:46:41Z dmiles wishes there was a accessor for symbol-macros
2018-01-23T10:47:17Z dmiles: well i implemented  define-symbol-macro in my impl.. but was checking to see if there was a getter for it
2018-01-23T10:47:24Z Shinmera: There is.
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2018-01-23T10:47:36Z dmiles: macroexpand :) ?
2018-01-23T10:48:25Z Shinmera: Yes
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2018-01-23T10:51:44Z phoe: "The value of *macroexpand-hook* is coerced to a function and then called as a function of three arguments: the expansion function, the form, and the env."
2018-01-23T10:52:02Z phoe: Does it mean that I can fetch the expansion functions for symbol macros this way?
2018-01-23T10:55:33Z dmiles: liek by settign it to #'list neat idea
2018-01-23T10:56:58Z phoe: #'list won't work
2018-01-23T10:57:13Z phoe: (lambda (x y z) (setf *something* (list x y z))) will work {;
2018-01-23T10:57:19Z dmiles: right it'll interfer
2018-01-23T10:57:34Z dmiles: *nod*
2018-01-23T10:58:00Z phoe: it's most likely incorrect but you get the idea.
2018-01-23T10:58:08Z phoe: grab the function object, store it somewhere for inspection.
2018-01-23T10:58:58Z phoe: you could even (let* ((*someplace* nil) (*macroexpand-hook* (lambda (x y z) (setf *someplace* x)) (macroexpand 'symbol-macro))
2018-01-23T10:59:01Z phoe: stuff like that
2018-01-23T10:59:08Z phoe: and return *someplace* at the end
2018-01-23T10:59:38Z phoe: it should be possible to define a SYMBOL-MACRO-FUNCTION reader this way, huh~
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2018-01-23T12:06:43Z ebzzry: Which of the logos now best represent CL?
2018-01-23T12:06:50Z phoe: ebzzry: none
2018-01-23T12:06:52Z phoe: (:
2018-01-23T12:07:13Z phoe: there is no agreement on this and I wouldn't expect any to happen.
2018-01-23T12:08:58Z phoe: disclaimer: I tried, once. https://imgur.com/a/QEd1p is the result of it.
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2018-01-23T12:09:33Z phoe: but it's more a single work of art derived from the original Lisp lizard rather than a commonly recognized Common Lisp logo.
2018-01-23T12:09:41Z jdz: I think a Godzilla would be apropos, but that's already taken by Mozilla (back in the day).
2018-01-23T12:10:39Z ecraven: what about the alien?
2018-01-23T12:10:58Z Shinmera: I really don't like the alien, so I hope to god it doesn't become the representative logo
2018-01-23T12:11:13Z ecraven: ;) just that and the one phoe posted are the only ones I remember seeing
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2018-01-23T12:12:01Z jdz: Godzilla is an overgrown lizard, and shoots lazors, and has superpowers, etc.
2018-01-23T12:12:12Z ecraven: Xah made one too http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/lisp_logo.html
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2018-01-23T12:13:24Z jdz: More like re-made the existing one into vector format.
2018-01-23T12:13:42Z ecraven: that might be, I didn't see any attribution on that page (but only glanced at it)
2018-01-23T12:13:51Z jdz: The attribution is there.
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2018-01-23T12:15:15Z saturn2: this is probably the most recognized logo http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Graphics/CLHS_Lg.gif
2018-01-23T12:15:29Z jdz: ecraven: https://web.archive.org/web/20041010035727/http://www.lisp.org:80/table/contents.htm
2018-01-23T12:16:06Z ecraven: jdz: ah, from the alu
2018-01-23T12:16:28Z ecraven: I actually kind of like that one ;) the idea, not the grayish style
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2018-01-23T12:31:04Z Shinmera: Reminds me to post this again https://shinmera.github.io/sbcl-logo/
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2018-01-23T12:35:28Z phoe: Shinmera: I never saw these before
2018-01-23T12:36:31Z jdz: The snek makes sense for SBCL.
2018-01-23T12:36:46Z phoe: Snake Bite Common Lisp?
2018-01-23T12:37:02Z jdz: Historically the compiler is named Python.
2018-01-23T12:37:13Z jdz: The one from CMUCL.
2018-01-23T12:37:32Z phoe: I know, yes.
2018-01-23T12:37:39Z jdz: Right.
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2018-01-23T12:43:08Z jdz: We need some more prototypes that are tattoo material – something along the lines of Kali Linux logo maybe.
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2018-01-23T13:49:39Z dlowe: I like shinmera's lizard
2018-01-23T13:50:27Z dlowe: The sbcl compiler may have started from Python, but now it's Python-adjacent
2018-01-23T13:50:55Z dlowe: So maybe some other reptile would be good. Like a lizard.
2018-01-23T13:51:21Z dlowe: The "made with lisp" logo always looked more like a salamander to me.
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2018-01-23T13:55:28Z makomo: hello
2018-01-23T13:55:32Z makomo: the logo is pretty cute
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2018-01-23T14:06:36Z jack_rabbit: Anyone feel like checking out this tetris I wrote? https://github.com/knusbaum/cl-tetris
2018-01-23T14:07:58Z dlowe: neat. I'll try it when I get home.
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2018-01-23T14:08:46Z phoe: works on my machine
2018-01-23T14:08:47Z phoe: (:
2018-01-23T14:12:34Z jack_rabbit: sweet :)
2018-01-23T14:13:14Z beach: jack_rabbit: Do you take remarks on the code?
2018-01-23T14:14:58Z jack_rabbit: beach, Sure! Note I haven't gone through to cleanup. I just wrote this all in a few hours for some fun. Structurally, I know it leaves a lot to be desired.
2018-01-23T14:15:17Z beach: OK, then I suggest you resubmit when you have cleaned it up.
2018-01-23T14:15:28Z jack_rabbit: beach, I'll do that, thanks. :)
2018-01-23T14:15:29Z beach: jack_rabbit: I recommend you use the slime-indentation contribution so that LOOP clauses get indented properly.  That way, you don't need a newline after the LOOP symbol.
2018-01-23T14:16:12Z jack_rabbit: beach, Ahh, I didn't know about that! I always found that annoying about emacs.
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2018-01-23T14:26:42Z jack_rabbit: beach, Actually, I'd be happy to go ahead and take your remarks whenever. I'm not seeing too much I want to change except dividing the code into multiple files.
2018-01-23T14:27:02Z beach: OK.
2018-01-23T14:27:34Z beach: You have way too many blank lines.  One blank line between top-level forms is the norm.  No blank lines inside.
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2018-01-23T14:28:03Z beach: In the last clause (:keydown...), can more than one WHEN condition be true?
2018-01-23T14:28:10Z beach: I don't see how it could.
2018-01-23T14:28:35Z jack_rabbit: no, it can't
2018-01-23T14:28:36Z jack_rabbit: so cond instead?
2018-01-23T14:28:38Z beach: If only one of them can be true, then you are better off using a COND or a CASE.
2018-01-23T14:28:44Z jack_rabbit: makes sense.
2018-01-23T14:29:29Z beach: I take it COMPLETE-ROW returns a list of things, right?
2018-01-23T14:29:35Z beach: and that list may be empty, right?
2018-01-23T14:30:33Z jack_rabbit: Correct.
2018-01-23T14:30:34Z beach: Then (WHEN COMPLETE ...) violates the expectation that WHEN should be followed by a Boolean value and not by a list.  It is better to write (UNLESS (NULL COMPLETE) ...)
2018-01-23T14:30:56Z beach: See the luv-slides by Norvig and Pitman.  Page 14 as I recall.
2018-01-23T14:31:14Z jack_rabbit: hmm. I thought any non-nil value was implicitly true.
2018-01-23T14:31:24Z beach: I am not talking semantics here.
2018-01-23T14:31:32Z jack_rabbit: Ahh, this is just style?
2018-01-23T14:31:34Z phoe: your code will work correctly
2018-01-23T14:31:35Z beach: I am talking about the message that you are sending to the person reading the code.
2018-01-23T14:31:44Z phoe: but it may not be understood correctly by humans
2018-01-23T14:31:45Z beach: i.e. me right now.
2018-01-23T14:32:00Z jack_rabbit: Makes sense. Just wanted to clarify for my sake.
2018-01-23T14:32:12Z phoe: you suggest that COMPLETE is a boolean, while it is a list.
2018-01-23T14:32:13Z beach: (> row 0) is better expressed as (plusp row).
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2018-01-23T14:32:35Z beach: That is an instance of a very general rule in programming, namely that you should use the most specific construct that does the job.
2018-01-23T14:32:46Z beach: That way, the person reading the code understands it faster.
2018-01-23T14:33:22Z beach: Similarly, (= 0 ...) is better expressed as (zerop ...)
2018-01-23T14:33:58Z beach: The DO LOOP clause does not need a PROGN.  Removing it saves space.
2018-01-23T14:34:14Z jack_rabbit: do accepts multiple forms?
2018-01-23T14:34:19Z beach: Yes.
2018-01-23T14:35:13Z beach: (when (not ...) ...) is better expressed as (unless ... ...)
2018-01-23T14:35:54Z beach: (setf (rows bs) (cdr (rows bs))) is better expressed as (pop (rows bs)).
2018-01-23T14:36:28Z beach: There is no need for a newline after the symbol OR.
2018-01-23T14:38:03Z beach: You could make an abstraction for (make-instance 'block-seq :x-pos ... :y-pos ...)
2018-01-23T14:38:21Z beach: and you could write a MAKE-COLOR with three arguments.
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2018-01-23T14:40:18Z beach: (progn (loop ...) nil) can be simplified to (loop ...) because LOOP returns NIL by default.
2018-01-23T14:40:54Z beach: Oh, and did I say that you have WAY too many blank lines?
2018-01-23T14:41:06Z heisig: beach, you are inspiring me to hack a style checker for CL :)
2018-01-23T14:41:22Z beach: heisig: Good idea.
2018-01-23T14:41:24Z beach: But hard.
2018-01-23T14:41:34Z beach: Especially the indentation part.
2018-01-23T14:41:47Z heisig: I fear so.
2018-01-23T14:43:42Z heisig: And I can already imagine the flame-wars about which code deserves a style warning...
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2018-01-23T14:46:30Z beach: jack_rabbit: Unless your code does not accept generalized Booleans, you can simplify (if ... t nil) to ...
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2018-01-23T14:47:17Z jack_rabbit: beach, yeah, THAT one I did catch already. :)
2018-01-23T14:47:50Z mfiano: (loop for i from 0 below ...) can be simplified to (loop for i below ...)
2018-01-23T14:48:22Z beach: Good.  You could also try to split up functions that span more than the height of a typical screen.  It is good for the person reading your code to be able to see the entire function.
2018-01-23T14:48:42Z jack_rabbit: beach, I agree. I think only the main function violates that.
2018-01-23T14:49:01Z beach: Maybe so.  I didn't look too carefully.
2018-01-23T14:49:26Z beach: jack_rabbit: Anyway, these remarks should keep you busy for a while.  I might have more later.
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2018-01-23T14:49:52Z jack_rabbit: beach, Thanks! I've incorporated most of them already.
2018-01-23T14:50:00Z mfiano: (when (= 0 ..) ..) can be simplified to (when (zerop ..) ..)
2018-01-23T14:50:03Z beach: Great.
2018-01-23T14:50:14Z beach: mfiano: Too late.  I already did that one.
2018-01-23T14:50:17Z mfiano: Ok :)
2018-01-23T14:50:58Z mfiano: Your :keydown (when (eq ..) ..) lines should be converted into an ECASE
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2018-01-23T14:51:41Z beach: mfiano: Too late.  I already did that one.
2018-01-23T14:51:52Z mfiano: Sure, it's an important reiteration
2018-01-23T14:52:10Z beach: OK, then.  There are also WAY too many blank lines.
2018-01-23T14:52:17Z mfiano: :)
2018-01-23T14:52:25Z dlowe: There's a program out there called lisp-critic that catches a lot of these
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2018-01-23T14:53:41Z mfiano: similarly to zerop, use plusp instead of x>0
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2018-01-23T14:54:23Z dim: you could also read Norvig's common lisp style paper
2018-01-23T14:54:38Z dim: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2018-01-23T14:55:40Z mfiano: (incf background-color -1) simplifies to (decf background-color)
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2018-01-23T15:21:14Z jack_rabbit: mfiano, good spot.
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2018-01-23T16:08:34Z tomlukeywood: how would i use (map 'list) to return all the items of a list lower than a specified value?
2018-01-23T16:08:34Z tomlukeywood: i cant figure out how to give (map 'list #'< array) a parameter
2018-01-23T16:09:01Z Bike: that's not a map, since you want to discard some elements.
2018-01-23T16:09:11Z Bike: remove-if or remove-if-not would be a better bet.
2018-01-23T16:09:20Z Bike: and you'll pass it a closure, probably.
2018-01-23T16:09:51Z tomlukeywood: ty i will try
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2018-01-23T16:17:48Z tomlukeywood: Bike: How would i give the < function a parameter when using remove-if?
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2018-01-23T16:18:34Z Bike: closure
2018-01-23T16:18:36Z tomlukeywood: somthing like (map 'list #'< number_to_pass_to_< array) would be good
2018-01-23T16:18:43Z tomlukeywood: ok i will look them up
2018-01-23T16:18:55Z Bike: that is, you're not thinking about it quite rightly, you don't need to pass < an extra parameter, what you need is a one-parameter function
2018-01-23T16:19:04Z Bike: (lambda (x) (< x 17)) for example
2018-01-23T16:19:14Z Bike: try calling that on a few numbers and see how it works
2018-01-23T16:19:42Z tomlukeywood: ah that makes sense
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2018-01-23T16:35:09Z phoe: What is the general algorithm for finding duplicate ub8 arrays?
2018-01-23T16:35:21Z phoe: I'm worried that putting them in a EQUALP hashtable might not work well enough.
2018-01-23T16:36:14Z Shinmera: Could easily derive your own hash for the arrays and create a specialised table.
2018-01-23T16:36:14Z phoe: At the same time, I don't want to go n² by comparing every one with every other one.
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2018-01-23T16:36:33Z phoe: I could, but I assume that this is a solved problem and there is an existing solution somewhere there.
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2018-01-23T16:37:03Z phoe: I basically need a function that I pass a list of ub8 arrays, and it tells me which arrays have the same contents.
2018-01-23T16:37:45Z Shinmera: Well there is remove-duplicates, but I can't tell you whether it's going to be efficient.
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2018-01-23T16:38:28Z phoe: Yes, that's what I fear.
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2018-01-23T16:38:36Z Shinmera: So benchmark
2018-01-23T16:38:57Z phoe: "The elements of sequence are compared pairwise, and if any two match, then the one occurring earlier in sequence is discarded, unless from-end is true, in which case the one later in sequence is discarded."
2018-01-23T16:39:04Z phoe: so n².
2018-01-23T16:39:43Z Shinmera: Odd that it would require that specific behaviour
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2018-01-23T16:46:04Z pjb: phoe: it would depend on the distribution of your arrays.  But unless the implementation is bugged (has a very bad has function for vectors), and unless your vector distribution is pathologique, using an equalp hash-table should be good.
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2018-01-23T16:47:22Z pjb: phoe: if your vector are not uniformly distributed, you may have other data structures better at discriminating them.  For example, trees…
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2018-01-23T17:00:22Z pfdietz_: I expect special implementations of remove-duplicates would be available for some cases.
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2018-01-23T17:01:22Z pfdietz_: For example, for the test functions supported by hash tables.
2018-01-23T17:02:10Z pfdietz_: In general you can't know if the test or key fns have side effects.
2018-01-23T17:02:48Z Shinmera: Right. I suppose for functions controlled by the implementation the user won't be able to actually know whether they were compared pairwise or not
2018-01-23T17:03:02Z Shinmera: So it could be optimised.
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2018-01-23T17:03:52Z pjb: The implementation would have to be careful with :from-end, but otherwise, it's possible to do it with a hash-table indeed.
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2018-01-23T17:42:32Z angelo: hi
2018-01-23T17:42:39Z beach: Hello angelo.
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2018-01-23T17:43:47Z angelo: please help, I need to check a list of string against data in an html text input using parenscript
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2018-01-23T17:55:23Z jackdaniel: angelo: your question is not clear (at least to me)
2018-01-23T17:56:16Z pjb: angelo: is that a javascript question?
2018-01-23T17:56:23Z jackdaniel: you may want to be better prepared before you ask that (i.e good description what you want to achieve, what have you tried, what are the constraints, why html/parenscript etc)
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2018-01-23T17:56:51Z pjb: a paste with examples of data, code, and invocation.
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2018-01-23T18:18:32Z jasom: angelo: I answered in #lispweb; didn't see you asked here too
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2018-01-23T22:51:44Z dim: what I though would be a pretty aggressive optimisation is shaving like 5s out of 45s
2018-01-23T22:51:47Z dim: too bad
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2018-01-23T22:58:57Z pagnol: dim, what's your program doing?
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2018-01-23T23:06:48Z dim: pgloader, copying data from a database to another
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2018-01-23T23:13:33Z dim: (different one, at that, e.g. from MySQL to PostgreSQL)
2018-01-23T23:14:19Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/8ee799070a8c8a4d7d7d1e957ebfbd21f9a1d975
2018-01-23T23:14:29Z dim: that's the patch that I expected would be about optimisations
2018-01-23T23:14:34Z dim: it's only code cleanup
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2018-01-23T23:22:23Z dim: well I guess it's going to be even easier than before to help improve the code speed-wise now, if anybody is interested into that ;-)
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2018-01-23T23:53:56Z mhd: Does anyone know how to control what version of SLIME I get in emacs? I have 2.19. Would like to run 2.20
2018-01-23T23:54:50Z mhd: I guess this is through melpa. I for some reason cannot find anything about this. Possibly I've overlooked something?
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2018-01-24T00:02:22Z _death: quicklisp has a slime helper, the easiest way
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2018-01-24T00:08:20Z mhd: And does that let you control SLIME version? I could not find anything about that either
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2018-01-24T00:08:56Z mhd: ^ Xach?
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2018-01-24T00:10:09Z rumbler31: mhd: i haven't found anything about this either
2018-01-24T00:10:09Z rumbler31: mhd: i think the development version is available to melpa or marmalade, but its up to you to also make sure that the version of swank that is loaded by the lisp matches as well
2018-01-24T00:10:13Z _death: if you want absolute control, just clone the repository
2018-01-24T00:10:19Z rumbler31: that is how I do it, slime from melpa, and whatever version of swank is installed by quicklisp-slime-helper, until I figure out an easier way to make both versions sync all the time
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2018-01-24T00:17:59Z phoe: I actually do an ugly trick sometimes
2018-01-24T00:18:17Z phoe: I install slime via quicklisp-slime-helper. This downloads swank into quicklisp's software directory.
2018-01-24T00:18:40Z phoe: I purge the contents of that directory and clone the Git swank repository in its place.
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2018-01-24T00:18:59Z phoe: this means that a) I'm running bleeding edge now, b) swank and slime versions match.
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2018-01-24T00:19:25Z phoe: and c) that magic can happen now.
2018-01-24T00:19:32Z phoe: but it doesn't, at least to me.
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2018-01-24T00:24:01Z _death: I did something like that for all quicklisp git sources, so in effect only half using quicklisp :/
2018-01-24T00:24:10Z phoe: well
2018-01-24T00:24:13Z phoe: if it works, then it works
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2018-01-24T00:36:04Z mhd: 3 main ways to install SLIME: (1) clone repo; (2) package; (3) quicklisp
2018-01-24T00:37:09Z mhd: phoe, you are mixing and matching slime and swank?
2018-01-24T00:37:33Z mhd: what could ever go wrong?
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2018-01-24T02:29:31Z mhd: Has anyone tried to use SLIME 2.20 with ACL? I've encountered an issue that slime-inspect gets totally hosed inspecting anything. You have to basically shut the Lisp down hard (kiling the buffer) to recover.
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2018-01-24T02:29:58Z mhd: goes into debugger somewhere in no-applicable-method MULTIPROCESSING:PROCESS-PROPERTY-LIST
2018-01-24T02:30:21Z mhd: Happens in 2.20, but not in 2.19 SLIME
2018-01-24T02:31:11Z mhd: Reproduced in ACL "alisp", both SMP and non-SMP, on MacOS (10.0). Anyone else?
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2018-01-24T02:48:50Z Xach: mhd: if you need a specific version of slime, you can get it from https://github.com/slime/slime/releases and put it anywhere that asdf can find things, like ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2018-01-24T02:49:09Z Xach: make sure you load slime.el from that same location.
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2018-01-24T03:39:55Z openthesky: hey I hope this isn't too off topic but has any gotten the nEXT browser working under ubuntu? http://next-browser.github.io
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2018-01-24T04:15:04Z hydrocat: any recommendations on a graphical package ? I'd like to control a canvas and see the results immediately, kinda like how you can do in opengl
2018-01-24T04:16:14Z hydrocat: I'm only looking for 2d manipulation
2018-01-24T04:18:02Z White_Flame: I think lispbuilder-sdl is popular
2018-01-24T04:18:28Z White_Flame: there's also #lispgames that might be worth asking
2018-01-24T04:19:15Z hydrocat: White_Flame: I'll give them a look :)
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2018-01-24T04:43:03Z mhd: Thanks Xach
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2018-01-24T05:01:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-24T05:01:55Z PinealGlandOptic: beach: good
2018-01-24T05:03:38Z iqubic: Morning beach.
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2018-01-24T05:12:07Z dmiles: in cl-ansi  doit.lsp does not expect it is only runing in compiled mode the compileit.lsp does.. correct?
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2018-01-24T05:13:00Z dmiles: (why i ask is i thought at some point things changed .. but that may have only been for an impl and non cl-ansi)
2018-01-24T05:13:57Z dmiles: but that may have only been for an one impl (ABCL) and not that hte ansi tests have changed
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2018-01-24T06:40:25Z epony: Good morning.
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2018-01-24T06:41:36Z beach: Hello epony.
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2018-01-24T06:42:08Z epony: Hi there, beach (have not had the chance to say HNY this month yet here).
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2018-01-24T07:04:20Z phoe: new
2018-01-24T07:04:24Z phoe: ugh wrong window
2018-01-24T07:04:29Z phoe: anyway, good morning
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2018-01-24T07:08:38Z makomo: morning
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2018-01-24T07:11:47Z Shinmera: mhd: If you have installed slime from melpa, run package-list-packages, press U, and then x. That should update all of your packages. If you only want to update slime, find it in the list and press u there instead.
2018-01-24T07:12:10Z mhd: Thank you Shinmera !
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2018-01-24T07:24:31Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2018-01-24T07:56:05Z otwieracz: PL
2018-01-24T07:56:07Z otwieracz: damn
2018-01-24T07:56:20Z otwieracz: https://youtu.be/KTdyp8VbuUw?t=41 - do you know *something* like that possible with SLIME and SBCL?
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2018-01-24T07:59:47Z otwieracz: I mean, I know that I am able to step in BREAK, but experience is completely different.
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2018-01-24T08:26:43Z beach: otwieracz: I think that, despite many statements to the contrary, our best development and debugging tools are really not that good.  You are going to either have to pitch in or wait until the planned software has been developed.  For example Clordane: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
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2018-01-24T08:27:19Z otwieracz: Well, backtraces are awesome.
2018-01-24T08:27:25Z otwieracz: But there's nothing else. ;)
2018-01-24T08:27:31Z beach: Really?  Good for you.
2018-01-24T08:27:41Z otwieracz: At least in comparison to Clojure.
2018-01-24T08:27:51Z otwieracz: Where that's pain in ass.
2018-01-24T08:27:52Z beach: Now here is the catch: Something like Clordane can not be implemented without significant support from the implementation, and that is probably not going to happen for SBCL.
2018-01-24T08:28:17Z beach: And probably not for any other existing free implementation either.
2018-01-24T08:28:32Z beach: So then you will not only have to wait for Clordane, but also for SICL.
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2018-01-24T08:30:33Z beach: Again, unless you find a way to pitch in.
2018-01-24T08:37:38Z otwieracz: So, more or less, nothing changed from what I remembered.
2018-01-24T08:37:46Z otwieracz: Thanks for clarification!
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2018-01-24T08:56:27Z beach: otwieracz: Not much is going to change as long as people believe that our current tools are the best, all languages considered.
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2018-01-24T08:57:58Z jackdaniel:  but it certainly makes the community feel better ;-)
2018-01-24T08:58:07Z beach: True.
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2018-01-24T09:00:16Z beach: Oh, and for the record, I think it would be way more productive to work on improving our tools than to attempt to change the standard to include the fad of the day.
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2018-01-24T09:07:20Z loke: The current tools are obviously not the best
2018-01-24T09:07:28Z loke: Most (all?) languages I use have horrible tools.
2018-01-24T09:07:48Z loke: Lisp is acceptable, but only in comparison with the competition.
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2018-01-24T09:21:02Z dim: pfff, what's with people?
2018-01-24T09:21:16Z dim: so pgloader didn't use to catch this error, and users would see: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "lparallel" RUNNING {100975FE43}>: error opening #P"/tmp/pgloader/pgloader.log": Permission denied
2018-01-24T09:21:31Z dim: then they open an issue on GitHub about SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR
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2018-01-24T09:21:44Z dim: like, they don't even read “filename: Permission denied”
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2018-01-24T09:22:40Z dim: just because it's Common Lisp doesn't mean you don't have to read error messages, I guess. I can't. Mm. Maybe I should switch away from CL if I want to have users... or maybe pgloader has way too much success and now I have to deal with people who don't know what they are doing? sorry for the rant.
2018-01-24T09:23:20Z jdz: dim: Yes, success is a double-edged sword.
2018-01-24T09:23:43Z crsc: Hi
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2018-01-24T09:24:44Z jdz: dim: You also get people depend on some [obscure] features/bugs, and then when you fix/improve your software people complain.
2018-01-24T09:26:08Z Shinmera: beach: FWIW The SBCL folks are aware that the current debugging environment is pretty bad and would like to add stuff like out-of-process debugging.
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2018-01-24T09:37:39Z loke: dim: Having a top-level condition handler that prints the message from the error before exiting would cover all the cases, yes?
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2018-01-24T09:40:56Z dim: I think I have that, yeah
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2018-01-24T09:42:39Z dim: well I don't, I have https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/main.lisp#L295 but the main entry point is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/main.lisp#L181, that's true
2018-01-24T09:42:54Z beach: Shinmera: Sure, I know at least one SBCL maintainer who is aware of that.
2018-01-24T09:43:45Z beach: Shinmera: Despite that fact, I often see messages such as "yes, but that is not going to happen".
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2018-01-24T09:46:40Z Shinmera: beach: I remember from the last time it came up (which was not long ago) the consensus was that they'd like to have it, but there's several roadblocks in the way that make it difficult.
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2018-01-24T10:41:15Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, that sounds accurate.
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2018-01-24T10:45:25Z megachombasss: hello, could someone explain me this function? (defun is-indir (e)    (eql (car e) :*)   )
2018-01-24T10:45:41Z phoe: megachombasss: sure
2018-01-24T10:46:00Z phoe: this function checks if the first element of its list is equal to the keyword :*
2018-01-24T10:46:19Z megachombasss: okey so the keyword is exactly :*
2018-01-24T10:46:24Z megachombasss: its not a regular expression
2018-01-24T10:46:24Z phoe: so (IS-INDIR '(1 2 3)) will evaluate to NIL, but (IS-INDIR '(:* :+ :-)) will evaluate to T
2018-01-24T10:46:45Z phoe: megachombasss: :FOO is a notation for keywords.
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2018-01-24T10:47:01Z megachombasss: oh wait a sec
2018-01-24T10:47:12Z megachombasss: :* :+ and :- will return true?
2018-01-24T10:47:18Z phoe: no.
2018-01-24T10:47:28Z phoe: the list, '(:* :+ :-), starts with :*.
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2018-01-24T10:47:37Z phoe: and this function only checks if the first element of the list is eql to :*.
2018-01-24T10:47:41Z phoe: the rest of the list can be anything.
2018-01-24T10:47:44Z megachombasss: oh okey okey
2018-01-24T10:48:15Z phoe: megachombasss: you sound like staying on #clnoobs could benefit you as well (:
2018-01-24T10:48:32Z phoe: since #clnoobs is specialized for newbie questions
2018-01-24T10:50:55Z megachombasss: i have to create a lisp VM for like friday morning
2018-01-24T10:51:10Z phoe: megachombasss: good lords, what for?
2018-01-24T10:51:16Z megachombasss: i have a working virtual machine, trying to edit it, but its hard as fk when i dunnot master the language
2018-01-24T10:51:20Z phoe: and what does a VM mean?
2018-01-24T10:51:30Z phoe: ...in this context?
2018-01-24T10:51:44Z phoe: an interpreter for a language?
2018-01-24T10:51:44Z megachombasss: a virtual machine with registers
2018-01-24T10:51:58Z megachombasss: that takes ASM code and do the operations
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2018-01-24T10:52:15Z megachombasss: if you're interested in making some money , i can pay you like right now for help on this
2018-01-24T10:52:25Z megachombasss: my university year depends of this and im pretty fked right now
2018-01-24T10:52:27Z phoe: ooh, so some kind of bytecode interpreter.
2018-01-24T10:53:28Z phoe: megachombasss: thanks, I'll pass.
2018-01-24T10:53:37Z openthesky: lol
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2018-01-24T10:55:21Z Guest96407: megachombasss: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Compilation
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2018-01-24T10:56:15Z megachombasss: no need to do the compiler
2018-01-24T10:56:21Z megachombasss: just the VM would be enough
2018-01-24T10:56:36Z megachombasss: trying to modify it to make it look like mine, but hell its hard
2018-01-24T10:56:41Z pjb: megachombasss: the examples include VM!
2018-01-24T10:57:01Z phoe: >trying to modify it to make it look like mine
2018-01-24T10:57:20Z pjb: megachombasss: Do you have 0.2 BTC?
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2018-01-24T10:58:35Z megachombasss: let me see how much is that
2018-01-24T10:58:46Z pjb: You're lucky it's dropping.
2018-01-24T10:59:11Z megachombasss: holly, 2000usd hurts butt
2018-01-24T10:59:24Z pjb: yes, thjat's by dayly rate.
2018-01-24T10:59:43Z pjb: Do it yourself it'll be more profitable in the long run.
2018-01-24T10:59:48Z phoe: ^
2018-01-24T10:59:56Z megachombasss: im running out of time
2018-01-24T11:00:04Z megachombasss: kinda wasting more time understanding lisp
2018-01-24T11:00:08Z megachombasss: than the VM itself
2018-01-24T11:00:14Z megachombasss: for 0.02btc im up to do it
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2018-01-24T11:00:31Z beach: Understanding Lisp is not a waste of time.
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2018-01-24T11:01:58Z phoe: megachombasss: I'm willing to answer your Lisp question, but unwilling to do your homework for you.
2018-01-24T11:02:04Z phoe: s/question/questions/
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2018-01-24T11:02:27Z megachombasss: well, i will come with lisp questions then, i'll try my best
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2018-01-24T11:13:30Z megachombasss: does this returns the position of adr in :memtab or it returns the contenant of adr in :memtab ?    (defun get-mem (mv adr)   (aref (get mv :memtab) adr)   )
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2018-01-24T11:17:17Z pjb: megachombasss: use the hyperspec.  type: /msg specbot clhs aref
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2018-01-24T11:18:14Z pjb: aref is array indexing, get is key lookup in a property list.
2018-01-24T11:18:20Z pjb: megachombasss: so more like the later.
2018-01-24T11:19:03Z pjb: We say: It returns the ADR slot of the :MEMTAB vector of the symbol passed in MV.
2018-01-24T11:19:58Z aeth: I personally use l1sp to search, e.g. http://l1sp.org/search?q=aref
2018-01-24T11:20:48Z pjb: Sure, but then you have to switch to another emacs window…  /msg can be typed in here, in your erc buffer.
2018-01-24T11:20:51Z pjb: ;-)
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2018-01-24T11:21:07Z aeth: l1sp also has PCL in the search results, which can be more helpful than the specification
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2018-01-24T11:31:31Z megachombasss: so it does return whats in adr, and not the index of adr right?
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2018-01-24T11:34:11Z angelo: hi
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2018-01-24T11:41:05Z pjb: megachombasss: it returns what's in the vector obtained with (get mv :memtab), in its slot at the index ADR.
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2018-01-24T11:47:53Z pjb: megachombasss: you can draw little diagrams to better understand: http://sprunge.us/EOND
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2018-01-24T12:40:50Z otwieracz: Do you have any idea how can I, without `osicat`, check if I don't have access to specific file or it does not exist?
2018-01-24T12:41:03Z otwieracz: Because for #'probe-file there's no difference
2018-01-24T12:45:28Z Xach: otwieracz: Are you looking for a "portable" way, or a "works for me on my implementation/OS combo" way?
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2018-01-24T12:47:14Z megachombasss: hum
2018-01-24T12:47:17Z megachombasss: i dont understand this
2018-01-24T12:47:18Z megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm)   (let ((exp asm) ;; copie  	(inst (car asm))
2018-01-24T12:47:30Z megachombasss: wait, i rewrite
2018-01-24T12:47:52Z megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm)   (let ((exp asm) )  	(inst (car asm))
2018-01-24T12:48:05Z megachombasss: exp will have the same value than asm right?
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2018-01-24T12:49:36Z otwieracz: Xach: not really - any modern linux is just enough.
2018-01-24T12:49:50Z otwieracz: Xach: osicat is problematic because it requires external library to be built.
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2018-01-24T12:50:08Z jackdaniel: that could sb-posix for sbcl, don't know what helps with ccl
2018-01-24T12:53:03Z Shinmera: Could CFFI to fstat(2)
2018-01-24T12:53:31Z Shinmera: Or stat if you haven't opened yet.
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2018-01-24T12:55:32Z Shinmera: I suppose OPEN would also have to error if you don't have read access.
2018-01-24T12:55:53Z otwieracz: Unfortunately, no.
2018-01-24T12:55:57Z jackdaniel: yes, but you won't be able to extract the errno in a sensible manner
2018-01-24T12:56:06Z jackdaniel: you can parse a string, but this is dependent on system locale
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2018-01-24T12:56:27Z jackdaniel: (and the error is all the same for file which doesn't exist and for file which you don't have permission to access)
2018-01-24T12:56:29Z otwieracz: Actually, for *open* it raises *no such file or directory* condition for ENOACCESS.
2018-01-24T12:56:36Z Shinmera: Oh
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2018-01-24T12:57:49Z Shinmera feels the pressure to write a filesystem-utils library again.
2018-01-24T12:58:47Z otwieracz: Could you do this in, like, 1 hour? :)
2018-01-24T12:58:58Z otwieracz: Please? :)
2018-01-24T12:59:08Z Shinmera: Probably could if I was motivated to, but currently I got other things to attend to.
2018-01-24T13:00:14Z pjb: megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm)   (let ((exp asm) )  	(inst (car asm))  ; is not a form, since it's missing closing parentheses.
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2018-01-24T13:00:48Z pjb: megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm)   (let ((exp asm) )  	(inst (car asm)))) ; is a form, in which the variable exp is unused.  Therefore a lisp compiler may remove it altogether.
2018-01-24T13:00:50Z megachombasss: well the thing is longer
2018-01-24T13:00:53Z megachombasss: onesec
2018-01-24T13:01:01Z pjb: megachombasss: leaving: (defun load-machine (mv asm)  (inst (car asm)))
2018-01-24T13:01:11Z pjb: megachombasss: you may use sprunge to paste code…
2018-01-24T13:01:16Z pjb: http://sprunge.us
2018-01-24T13:01:42Z Xach: otwieracz: what implementation?
2018-01-24T13:01:49Z megachombasss: https://codepaste.net/355q72
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2018-01-24T13:03:24Z pjb: megachombasss: instead of set-hash, we use (setf (gethash key table) value).
2018-01-24T13:03:44Z pjb: megachombasss: (gethash key table)  is called a place; it's a form that can be read or written with setf.
2018-01-24T13:04:09Z megachombasss: yes yes, set-hach is a function that does (setf (gethash key table) value)
2018-01-24T13:04:12Z pjb: megachombasss: it less brain burden to use such places, rather than having different functions to read and write.
2018-01-24T13:04:23Z pjb: Don't introduce such set-hash functions…
2018-01-24T13:04:31Z megachombasss: im about to remplace all this useless functions
2018-01-24T13:04:41Z megachombasss: but its a bit clearer to read for me as its not my code for now
2018-01-24T13:04:42Z pjb: megachombasss: your case clauses are redundant.
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2018-01-24T13:05:12Z pjb: megachombasss: they all contain the symbol CL:QUOTE.  Only the first clause would be evaluated if (car inst)  returned CL:QUOTE…
2018-01-24T13:05:21Z otwieracz: Xach: SBCL
2018-01-24T13:05:35Z Xach: otwieracz: sb-posix:stat may do what you need.
2018-01-24T13:05:54Z pjb: megachombasss: said otherwise, CASE clauses are not evaluated; you should not quote them.  (case (car inst) ((@) (case-adr…)) ((varg) …) …)
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2018-01-24T13:06:02Z paule32: hello
2018-01-24T13:06:07Z Xach: otwieracz: you can extract the errno and get an error string, too, if you wish.
2018-01-24T13:06:33Z paule32: how is it possible to extend a list at runtime?
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2018-01-24T13:06:47Z otwieracz: Xach: will see, thanks!
2018-01-24T13:07:12Z pjb: megachombasss: you can write instead (loop with etiqloc = (make-hash-table …) with etiqlocnr = … for inst on asm  do (case (car inst) …))
2018-01-24T13:07:32Z Xach: paule32: it is pretty easy to extend a list from the front by adding another cons there. it is a little less easy to do the same at the end (but not too hard)
2018-01-24T13:07:44Z pjb: megachombasss: oh: (loop with etiqloc = (make-hash-table …) with etiqlocnr = … initially (setf (gethash 'nb etiqlocnr) 0) for inst on asm  do (case (car inst) …))
2018-01-24T13:07:56Z paule32: hi Xach
2018-01-24T13:08:22Z paule32: i would like code for learning
2018-01-24T13:08:24Z paule32: eg.
2018-01-24T13:09:05Z paule32: user type in "cat is sleeping"
2018-01-24T13:09:37Z paule32: so the word catalog is lookup, if "cat" in list
2018-01-24T13:10:01Z paule32: is it, then add an other list with "is" ...
2018-01-24T13:10:28Z megachombasss: imma try to copy pasta that
2018-01-24T13:10:30Z pjb: megachombasss: more precisely: http://sprunge.us/MIKG
2018-01-24T13:10:52Z Xach: paule32: I don't understand, sorry.
2018-01-24T13:11:30Z pjb: megachombasss: notice that the initially clause is written after the for, but it's actually executed before (but after the for variables are created).
2018-01-24T13:12:24Z pjb: megachombasss: what I like to do when I create and initialize objects, is to do it in the same place with a LET like in: http://sprunge.us/HGLi
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2018-01-24T13:12:31Z paule32: Xach: i have a "defvar" , that should be a word catalog, that can be extend at runtime, when user type in "cat", then the program shall search: "if cat exists" => if not => add the word
2018-01-24T13:12:35Z megachombasss: so if i coppy pasta this it does exactly the same function, but without useless clauses
2018-01-24T13:12:37Z pjb: megachombasss: notably if there's a lot of entries to fill in.
2018-01-24T13:13:04Z pjb: megachombasss: yes.  The LOOP macro is sophisticated; it will expand to the equivalent let and assignments.
2018-01-24T13:13:12Z wxie: hi
2018-01-24T13:13:12Z wxie: Is single-float a class name in CL?
2018-01-24T13:13:30Z Xach: wxie: no
2018-01-24T13:13:50Z Xach: wxie: it might be in an implementation but is not specified to be by the standard (so you shouldn't rely on its classiness)
2018-01-24T13:13:55Z pjb: float is a system class, but not the subtypes.
2018-01-24T13:13:58Z windblow: is there any implementation that allows integration with C? i am thinking of starting to dive into AI, and figured that both makes a fairly good combo.
2018-01-24T13:14:00Z paule32: Xach, i get it, sorry for missunderstand
2018-01-24T13:14:15Z pjb: windblow: all implementations have a FFI to C.
2018-01-24T13:14:16Z windblow: windows is my target platform.
2018-01-24T13:14:17Z Xach: paule32: you could use (push "cat" *catalog*)
2018-01-24T13:14:21Z pjb: windblow: use CFFI to use them.
2018-01-24T13:14:35Z paule32: thx
2018-01-24T13:14:47Z Xach: windblow: most/all of them integrate with C, and CFFI is a library that presents a consistent interface for doing so.
2018-01-24T13:15:15Z windblow: thank you very much xach and pjb
2018-01-24T13:15:17Z Xach: It is fun to interactively load C libraries and interactively call C functions.
2018-01-24T13:16:12Z pjb: fun but dangerous. If you make a mistake, you crash like any other C program!
2018-01-24T13:16:44Z pjb: It's fun like wingsuit flying…
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2018-01-24T13:23:24Z wxie: Did I missed an answer for Is single-float a class name in CL?
2018-01-24T13:23:33Z Xach: wxie: maybe. i answered "no"
2018-01-24T13:23:37Z Xach: wxie: it is a type name.
2018-01-24T13:24:13Z jackdaniel: wxie: on some implementations make it a builtin-class, but assuming that is not portable
2018-01-24T13:24:25Z wxie: Xach: Thanks.
2018-01-24T13:25:33Z wxie: How could I use it in a class parameter?
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2018-01-24T13:26:29Z wxie: like this one: (defmethod m* ((m matrix) (s real))
2018-01-24T13:26:35Z Xach: wxie: you could not
2018-01-24T13:26:35Z pjb: classes don't have parameters. They have superclasses, slots, etc.
2018-01-24T13:26:38Z jackdaniel: portably you can't. non-portably if it works – it works
2018-01-24T13:26:46Z pjb: You can use the float class.
2018-01-24T13:26:50Z Xach: FLOAT is a system-class, though.
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2018-01-24T13:29:02Z megachombasss: pjb i got an error with your code. it says GETHASH: argument 0 is not a hash table
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2018-01-24T13:29:42Z pjb: megachombasss: oops, I forgot to return the table at the end of the LET form.
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2018-01-24T13:29:58Z pjb: add just TABLE after the SETF form.
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2018-01-24T13:30:28Z pjb: Like this: http://sprunge.us/JcBQ
2018-01-24T13:30:35Z wxie: Xach: float works, but not single-float. Thanks, all.
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2018-01-24T13:44:59Z clarkema: Supposing I define a class in one package, and want to use (slot-value obj 'slot) in another package, is there anyway to do so without having to export symbols for each of the slot names?
2018-01-24T13:48:26Z clarkema: I've played around with a function that takes the slot-value symbol name and converts it to a symbol in the package in which the class is defined, but that seems like quite a bit of overhead for every access
2018-01-24T13:48:27Z phoe: clarkema: (slot-value obj 'foo::slot)
2018-01-24T13:48:34Z phoe: but don't do this.
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2018-01-24T13:48:45Z phoe: :: means that you are using a package's internal symbols and not its external interface.
2018-01-24T13:48:45Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, set, say, mop, get, login, grant, tell, roll,
2018-01-24T13:48:50Z phoe: Colleen: oh shush
2018-01-24T13:48:50Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, clhs, set, say, mop, get, time, tell, roll, help,
2018-01-24T13:48:56Z phoe: ...
2018-01-24T13:49:12Z Shinmera: PRs to implement a natural language interface are welcome
2018-01-24T13:49:16Z phoe: clarkema: better if you use accessors, and export them.
2018-01-24T13:49:46Z phoe: Colleen: tell Colleen to learn English
2018-01-24T13:49:46Z Colleen: Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, tell, roll, mop, time, set, say, get, login, hello,
2018-01-24T13:51:49Z clarkema: I'm tring to build a 'friendly' DSL for a certain task, so I already have a function that wraps around slot-value.  In the DSL you call (attr OBJ 'slot)  ATTR is mainly there to automatically handle the case of OBJ being nil in a sensible way, but it could be co-opted to do other munging if required
2018-01-24T13:53:47Z Xach: clarkema: and overhead is a big concern?
2018-01-24T13:54:18Z clarkema: Xach: probably not _huge_, I doubt reinterning the symbols would really hurt
2018-01-24T13:54:32Z clarkema: I was just wondeirng if there was a cleaner way
2018-01-24T13:55:57Z beach: clarkema: Yes, never access slots directly.  They are implementation details.
2018-01-24T13:56:03Z beach: Use accessor functions instead.
2018-01-24T13:56:27Z Xach: clarkema: You could be cheeky and do it in SLOT-MISSING, so there's no overhead if there isn't a package issue involved.
2018-01-24T13:57:11Z phoe: ...I think I am close to using a method combination for the first time in my life.
2018-01-24T13:57:20Z Xach: i'm a sucker for working around design problems with clos features!
2018-01-24T13:58:00Z pjb: clarkema: why wouldn't you just export the slot names?
2018-01-24T13:58:09Z clarkema: Xach: ah, that's an interesting idea!  I need a SLOT-MISSING anyway, so could add some extra magic to it
2018-01-24T13:58:23Z tfb: clarkema: if the slot names are part of the public interface of the class, then they should be exported
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2018-01-24T13:59:11Z clarkema: tfb: I guess it just feels like I'm polluting the name space that uses the class with some very common symbols, and I'm not sure whether that might bite me further down the road
2018-01-24T13:59:15Z pjb: I use a pjb-cl-expor-definition-at-point bound to H-e (or A-e when H- is not available) to do that easily. http://sprunge.us/bThV
2018-01-24T13:59:15Z beach: tfb: Yes, but the slot names should not be part of the public interface.
2018-01-24T13:59:58Z tfb: beach: then there should be accessors, which are, or something.  My point was that if there's a public interface, that should be exported
2018-01-24T14:00:06Z pjb: clarkema: no polution, since you can always NOT use the package, and instead write (your-package:attr obj 'your-package:slot)
2018-01-24T14:00:13Z beach: tfb: Yes, correct.
2018-01-24T14:00:21Z pjb: clarkema: polution occurs when you mutate some global state.
2018-01-24T14:00:29Z clarkema: beach: they aren't, directly.  The user never calls slot-value; they call a method called ATTR and supply the name of the attribute that they want
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2018-01-24T14:00:55Z clarkema: the fact that this attribute is the same of the slot that holds a value is hidden
2018-01-24T14:01:01Z tfb: well those attribute names (which are slot names, right?) are the part of the public interface
2018-01-24T14:01:32Z pjb: Bow of course the advantage of using accessors, is that you can easily decorate them (have :around, :before, :after methods), and  the accessor itself can be implemented to do more than reading or writing the slot (it can ensure consistency, updating other slots, or do some other computation or signaling, eg. in an observer pattern, etc).
2018-01-24T14:01:36Z pjb: s/Bow/Now/
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2018-01-24T14:07:00Z clarkema: Good points
2018-01-24T14:07:01Z clarkema: ta
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2018-01-24T14:27:03Z angelo: hi
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2018-01-24T14:36:29Z Bike: Yo, angelo.
2018-01-24T14:36:46Z angelo: :)
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2018-01-24T14:51:14Z __rumbler31: good morning lisp!
2018-01-24T14:51:37Z oleo: sup sup
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2018-01-24T14:55:33Z phoe: How can I access a slot's :INITFORM without instantiating a class which has that slot?
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2018-01-24T14:55:47Z phoe: Can MOP help me here?
2018-01-24T14:56:49Z Shinmera: mop slot-definition-initfunction
2018-01-24T14:56:49Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-initfunction.html
2018-01-24T14:56:52Z Shinmera: mop slot-definition-initform
2018-01-24T14:56:52Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-initform.html
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2018-01-24T14:58:29Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks!
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2018-01-24T15:35:13Z phoe: Does any utility library provide something similar to WITH-ACCESSORS that simplifies things if the variable and the accessor name are the same?
2018-01-24T15:35:43Z phoe: I don't want to (with-accessors ((x x) (y y) (z z)) foo ...) where I can (with-accessors* (x y z) foo ...)
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2018-01-24T15:40:34Z Bike: i haven't heard of that. it's like a two line definition tho.
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2018-01-24T15:41:24Z phoe: Bike: almost everything is a two line definition in Lisp. I want to avoid following the NIH syndrome.
2018-01-24T15:41:38Z Bike: which is why i said the first thing
2018-01-24T15:41:49Z phoe: yep, I understand now.
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2018-01-24T15:47:43Z Xach: phoe: you mean you want to mix things, where some are the same and some aren't?
2018-01-24T15:47:55Z Xach: (with-foo ((x y) z) ...)?
2018-01-24T15:48:02Z phoe: Xach: yes, this too.
2018-01-24T15:48:15Z phoe: your example could be equivalent to (with-foo ((x y) (z z)) ...)
2018-01-24T15:48:45Z Xach: so that rules out with-slots
2018-01-24T15:49:08Z phoe: sounds like a wrapper around WITH-ACCESSORS but I can bet $5 that someone has already written and published it.
2018-01-24T15:49:11Z phoe: just where.
2018-01-24T15:49:50Z Xach: For what little it's worth, I tend to think of using with-accessors as a wrong approach, falling into the "objects are buckets of slots" thinking I don't really like.
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2018-01-24T15:51:14Z phoe: Xach: I'm defining a macro that will need some variables bound inside its body. I want with-accessors for that, since it uses symbol macros, which is good enough because the actual accessors will be called.
2018-01-24T15:51:27Z phoe: I'm just complaining about a minor syntactical annoyance.
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2018-01-24T16:01:57Z pjb: I have a with-slots macro that does that…
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2018-01-24T16:02:36Z pjb: Err, no, it's in CL:WITH-SLOTS…
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2018-01-24T16:03:34Z pjb: phoe: minor syntactical annoyances are not to be complained about, they're to be avoided with DEFMACRO!
2018-01-24T16:03:38Z pjb: phoe: this is not ##c.
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2018-01-24T16:48:53Z paule32: hello
2018-01-24T16:49:05Z paule32: follwing code:  https://pastebin.com/2hYKUrSN
2018-01-24T16:49:31Z paule32: hiw can i make a structure with a hash?
2018-01-24T16:49:39Z paule32: how
2018-01-24T16:49:52Z paule32: i have a super "catalog"
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2018-01-24T16:50:27Z paule32: this catalog divides into "animal" and/or "plants"
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2018-01-24T16:51:15Z paule32: the name of the animal should take a "state"
2018-01-24T16:51:20Z paule32: 0 or 1
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2018-01-24T16:52:15Z paule32: the problem i have, is, how to add/update the structure, if it a map-hash-table
2018-01-24T16:52:26Z warweasle: I just solved a problem using lisp. I needed multiple "virtual channels" through a serial port. I can use lisp on the server side to parse out (channel . data).
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2018-01-24T16:53:55Z __rumbler31: warweasle you have lisp code talking on a serial port?
2018-01-24T16:54:13Z Xach: warweasle: cool
2018-01-24T16:54:29Z Xach: hey warweasle! i have a bug for you!!
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2018-01-24T16:55:18Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-23/failure-report/squirl.html#squirl.demo-2
2018-01-24T16:55:19Z Xach: ;   Constant 1.0 conflicts with its asserted type DOUBLE-FLOAT.
2018-01-24T16:56:03Z warweasle: Xach: ?
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2018-01-24T16:56:46Z warweasle: __rumbler31: I will shortly. I can't be on two networks at once becuase the IT department will shut the second one down. So I'm going to bypass it with a serial port.
2018-01-24T16:56:57Z warweasle: Xach: What do I need to fix?
2018-01-24T16:57:08Z zazzerino: paule32: try reading http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/hashes.html
2018-01-24T16:57:37Z __rumbler31: warweasle: are you just talking over /dev/tty or whatnot?
2018-01-24T16:57:55Z paule32: zazzerino: thank you, i did it done, but put a it to struct image ...
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2018-01-24T16:58:27Z warweasle: __rumbler31: I will be.
2018-01-24T16:59:02Z warweasle: __rumbler31: I'm going to use named pipes on the unix side.
2018-01-24T17:00:15Z __rumbler31: one thing thats always been a mystery to me is how to correctly set serial speed settings without writing c code, and it seems to be different all the time.  Does the terminal that will be talking to the device need "its" speed set with stty? or does stty configure the speed of a /dev/tty for which all other accesses will be correct?
2018-01-24T17:00:23Z __rumbler31: and in hindsight this is totally off topic
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2018-01-24T17:07:08Z sjl: warweasle: these struct slots are of type double-float, but whatever lisp xach is running the tests in has *read-default-float-format* as something else (e.g. by default SBCL is SINGLE-FLOAT I think)
2018-01-24T17:07:49Z sjl: so the bare "1.0" in the demo reads as a single-float
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2018-01-24T17:10:08Z Xach: sjl, warweasle: well, there's also a "200" in there, an integer...
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2018-01-24T17:11:31Z sjl: heh, also that
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2018-01-24T17:13:57Z warweasle: sjl: I don't know the topic or what the question is.
2018-01-24T17:14:30Z Xach: warweasle: the topic is squirl demo 2 does not build because of float and integer literals in the code that don't match the declared types.
2018-01-24T17:14:44Z sjl: warweasle: the bug Xach mentioned 15 minutes ago, and you asked what you needed to fix.
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2018-01-24T17:19:14Z phoe: pjb: right. on ##c, I would complain about minor syntactical annoyances. on #lisp, I complain about me having to write the DEFMACRO myself and contributing to the global NIH.
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2018-01-24T17:20:57Z warweasle: Sorry, was distracted.
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2018-01-24T17:22:46Z warweasle: I haven't looked at this in forever. I don't think anyone uses it. Cl-chipmunk has replaced it.
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2018-01-24T17:23:58Z warweasle: I'll see what I can do tonight to get is working again...but it's strange this suddenly broke. Or was this the first time in quicklisp?
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2018-01-24T17:37:08Z Xach: warweasle: no, it's been broken forever
2018-01-24T17:37:14Z Xach: warweasle: i'm going through a backlog
2018-01-24T17:37:26Z Xach: warweasle: there are a ton of demo, test, and ancillary system failures that I have mostly ignored
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2018-01-24T17:39:06Z warweasle: Xach: I don't think it's used. You can remove it if you like. CL-chipmunk does the same thing faster.
2018-01-24T17:39:15Z Xach: Ok, thanks
2018-01-24T17:40:04Z warweasle: Xach: I'm out of open source development for now. I don't know how long that will last. But I've been swamped with other projects. I miss lisp however.
2018-01-24T17:40:25Z Xach: warweasle: Ok, no worries!
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2018-01-24T17:47:05Z warweasle: Ok, it's replaced with bodge-chipmunk
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2018-01-24T18:40:43Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-24T18:44:28Z __rumbler31: warweasle: what is taking up your time?
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2018-01-24T18:58:12Z warweasle: __rumbler31: I'm doing game development in Unreal and blender.
2018-01-24T18:58:34Z warweasle: That and work and family take more time than I have.
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2018-01-24T19:04:23Z __rumbler31: right on
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2018-01-24T19:07:31Z |3b|: warweasle: not sure "use ffi to do 2d physics" is exactly a replacement for "do 2d physics without using ffi" :)
2018-01-24T19:11:26Z warweasle: |3b|: It is when I have never understood the code. Mostly I just fiddled with things until squirl worked.
2018-01-24T19:14:06Z |3b|: yeah, not suggesting you should be required to maintain it :)
2018-01-24T19:14:31Z |3b|: maybe lispgames could take over if you no longer have time, though not sure anyone else there has all that much extra time either
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2018-01-24T19:20:11Z warweasle: |3b|: The problem is the lisp curse. We all have individual projects but no community accepted game engine. CEPL is about as close as we have. I think bodge has a fairly nice system but I don't know. I've been out of lispgame dev for a few months now.
2018-01-24T19:20:23Z warweasle: I've been busy learning blender and unreal engine.
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2018-01-24T19:25:30Z borodust: warweasle: if only there would have been any engine to accept ;p
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2018-01-24T19:31:31Z warweasle: borodust: True...but it takes a few people to build a whole one. I wasn't up to the task. To be blunt, I'm likely not up to the task I'm doing now. But I've obsessed over it.
2018-01-24T19:31:43Z warweasle: It's the reason I wanted to make a game engine to start with.
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2018-01-24T20:20:52Z fiveop: Xach: what is the simplest way to fetch the whole quicklisp dist into <quicklisp>/dist/quicklisp/software ?
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2018-01-24T20:22:09Z Xach: fiveop: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-releases (dist "quicklisp")))
2018-01-24T20:22:35Z pjb: I do (quick-install-all)
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2018-01-24T20:25:12Z fiveop: thanks
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2018-01-24T20:25:53Z fiveop: I want a big test set for my s-expression matching code :)
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2018-01-24T20:27:07Z fiveop: This will match potential canidates for replacement by alexandria's curry for example '(:list lambda (:list (:register 0 :everything)) (:list :everything (:non-greedy-repetition 0 nil :everything) (:back-reference 0))))
2018-01-24T20:27:48Z fiveop: wait, that should be '(:list lambda (:list (:register 0 :everything)) (:list (:non-greedy-repetition 2 nil :everything) (:back-reference 0))))
2018-01-24T20:34:53Z Xach: fiveop: that is a little tricky to decode
2018-01-24T20:35:08Z Xach: fiveop: i would really love to see a cool s-expression search syntax.
2018-01-24T20:35:26Z __rumbler31: like xpath?
2018-01-24T20:35:46Z Xach: I'm not familiar with xpath.
2018-01-24T20:36:05Z fiveop: the problem is differentiating between lists and sequences
2018-01-24T20:36:16Z jasom: Xach: xpath is a search syntax for xml
2018-01-24T20:36:22Z __rumbler31: xpath is a query syntax for xml documents
2018-01-24T20:36:31Z Xach: Is it cool?
2018-01-24T20:36:34Z aeth: foo::(+ 1 1) is valid syntax? Wow.
2018-01-24T20:36:46Z Shinmera: aeth: Only in implementations with that extension
2018-01-24T20:36:46Z Xach: aeth: only on sbcl, allegro, and possibly some other systems.
2018-01-24T20:36:51Z phoe: aeth: not standard
2018-01-24T20:37:05Z Xach: I hope it's clear what I mean when I use it, even on systems that don't support it.
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2018-01-24T20:37:19Z Xach: allegroserve has some foo:: syntax baked into its sources :(
2018-01-24T20:37:20Z Shinmera: Xach: I wouldn't say xpath is cool, but then again anything associated with xml sucks a lot, so by comparison I guess it's ok.
2018-01-24T20:37:37Z Xach: Would xpath be a good model for an s-expression query syntax?
2018-01-24T20:37:44Z Shinmera: I don't think so
2018-01-24T20:38:02Z __rumbler31: Xach: I haven't personally needed it but it lets you say things like "/A/B/C" which returns all child objects of type C from all objects of type B from toplevel object A
2018-01-24T20:38:21Z Shinmera: Xpath is very specific to XML
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2018-01-24T20:39:15Z dim: what about using pattern matching tools such as optima etc?
2018-01-24T20:39:15Z fiveop: Xach: I tried to make the syntax as close as possible to cl-ppcre parse-trees
2018-01-24T20:39:22Z Xach: I have a test set up for RSS feeds for quicklisp build failures
2018-01-24T20:39:26Z __rumbler31: but the concept maps I feel, imagine a query string of (* (* ('foo))) which will give you all foo children of all children of some top level
2018-01-24T20:39:27Z fiveop: many are probably familiar with it
2018-01-24T20:39:29Z dim: I though those tools would allow for some s-exp matching already
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2018-01-24T20:39:44Z __rumbler31: the point is that xpath is a syntax for collecting nodes of an xml tree
2018-01-24T20:40:02Z Xach: Hmm, I need to publish empty feeds for non-failing upstream sources!
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2018-01-24T20:40:31Z fiveop: I don't want to collect them. I want to match them against patterns.
2018-01-24T20:40:46Z __rumbler31: er like destructuring bind?
2018-01-24T20:40:51Z fiveop: but better
2018-01-24T20:40:51Z __rumbler31: nm
2018-01-24T20:41:13Z fiveop: You cannot do what I did above with destructuring bind
2018-01-24T20:42:20Z __rumbler31: i'm not quite sure what you're trying to do, given an sexp with nested sexps you want to apply a matcher and get what back
2018-01-24T20:43:39Z fiveop: '(:list (:register 0 (:sequence (:register 1 :everything) (:non-greedy-repetition 0 nil (:back-reference 1)))) (:back-reference 0))
2018-01-24T20:44:00Z fiveop: that matches every list that has an even number (at least 2) of elements that are all #'equal to each other
2018-01-24T20:44:07Z __rumbler31: oh you're making a sexp version of what cl-ppcre expects for a regex
2018-01-24T20:44:14Z fiveop: you could do that differently I guess :P
2018-01-24T20:44:18Z fiveop: (simpler)
2018-01-24T20:44:24Z fiveop: __rumbler31: exactly
2018-01-24T20:44:30Z fiveop: that's what I did (to a certain degree)
2018-01-24T20:44:54Z __rumbler31: where the elements of the lists are equal to each other, or each list is equal to each other list?
2018-01-24T20:45:02Z fiveop: there is just one list
2018-01-24T20:45:06Z fiveop: the elements are equal
2018-01-24T20:45:24Z __rumbler31: oh i see
2018-01-24T20:47:24Z fiveop: though you could do that with LENGTH, EQUAL, and EVERY as well, so that might not be that good of an example
2018-01-24T20:48:49Z fiveop: What prompted me to start was the lack of complexity expressible in macro lambda-lists
2018-01-24T20:50:04Z fiveop: I would like to write at the beginning of a macro that expects complex structure in its input something like (unless (match *macro-arg-pattern* macro-arg) (error "invalid arg to macro foo"))
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2018-01-24T20:51:24Z fiveop: and since there is (:register <name> <pattern>) match can actually be used to destructure it as well
2018-01-24T20:52:28Z fiveop: (up to repetitions, that's a problem)
2018-01-24T20:53:15Z fiveop: Xach: how many MB/GB am I going to need for the whole quicklisp corpus?
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2018-01-24T20:53:58Z Xach: fiveop: 1.2GB
2018-01-24T20:54:01Z Xach: ish
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2018-01-24T20:55:30Z aeth: pillton: Is it intentional that (declare (optimize (speed 3))) works in specialization-store or is that an unintended side-effect of how you wrote it? It's probably great that the user can control the optimization level because sometimes that's necessary (at least in some implementations)
2018-01-24T20:55:46Z aeth: However, if optimization declarations are allowed, type declarations are allowed, too!
2018-01-24T20:56:09Z aeth: (defstore foo (x y)) (defspecialization (foo :name %foo/single-float) ((x single-float) (y single-float)) single-float (declare (optimize (speed 3)) (double-float x)) (+ x y))
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2018-01-24T20:56:51Z aeth: In SBCL, this breaks specialization-store. (foo 2d0 2f0) looks for a specialization that doesn't exist and (foo 1f0 2f0) complains that 1f0 isn't double-float
2018-01-24T20:56:58Z fiveop: thank you for the quicklisp help and thank you for the interesting feedback
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2018-01-24T21:38:00Z Xach: Shinmera: http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/Shinmera.rss
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2018-01-24T21:39:09Z Shinmera: I suppose I should be happy that I can't tell if that'll actually tell me if there's a failure going on
2018-01-24T21:40:11Z Xach: If it's empty, it means none of your projects has a failure right now.
2018-01-24T21:40:18Z Xach: It will be updated daily.
2018-01-24T21:40:18Z Shinmera: Yeah, that's what I mean.
2018-01-24T21:40:51Z Shinmera: Anyway, thanks! Hopefully you won't have to manually bother me about failures anymore now.
2018-01-24T21:42:36Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/hu.dwim.rss for example has some stuff
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2018-01-24T21:44:57Z Xach: Hmm
2018-01-24T21:45:00Z Xach has some bugs to report
2018-01-24T21:45:08Z Shinmera: What's the rationale for not including the build log in the feed items?
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2018-01-24T21:49:27Z dim: wow, I think I managed to make quite some progress on my pgloader COPY batch crazyness, now streaming the bytes directly down the protocol when on-error-stop is picked (default in db-2-db cases) rather than the classis on-error-resume-next
2018-01-24T21:49:47Z dim: better memory usage for sure, maybe better perfs too
2018-01-24T21:49:58Z dim: (seems that way here, but my test cases suck)
2018-01-24T21:51:29Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pg-copy/copy-db-write.lisp --- parts of the inner magic, for perf comments inclined people ;-)
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2018-01-24T21:58:50Z __rumbler31: read through this, your defun descriptions are the same paragraph.  Also, was there anything more to your optimizations than including the right (declare... options?
2018-01-24T21:59:13Z dim: yeah, lots, but it's spread in like 4 different patches
2018-01-24T21:59:16Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commits/master
2018-01-24T21:59:25Z dim: it's mainly arranging things to do less work
2018-01-24T21:59:25Z __rumbler31: er that might have sounded belittling.  I'm a novice at this, so the most obvious signal is the declare forms
2018-01-24T21:59:31Z dim: not just localized code edits
2018-01-24T21:59:45Z __rumbler31: ah
2018-01-24T21:59:47Z dim: declare is like trying to get at the last 1% maybe
2018-01-24T22:00:01Z dim: there's no “turbo“ button anymore on our computers
2018-01-24T22:00:11Z __rumbler31: lol
2018-01-24T22:00:24Z dim: the only way to make a program faster is to reduce the amount of work it's doing
2018-01-24T22:00:43Z dim: sometimes just not doing anything if you can accept that ;-)
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2018-01-24T22:01:56Z dim: https://imgur.com/zAaK1HM for the turbo thing, if for reasons you don't remember about that...
2018-01-24T22:02:23Z _death: is safety 0 really worth it
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2018-01-24T22:02:40Z __rumbler31: i'm old enough to have seen that
2018-01-24T22:02:51Z __rumbler31: young enough for it to have gone away before I fully understood what it did
2018-01-24T22:03:14Z dim: _death: no idea, I copied from Postmodern code in trivial utf-8
2018-01-24T22:03:28Z __rumbler31: I've scrounged together towers with those buttons on them with of course nothing to wire them to.  I think I used it once when the wire for the real power button was too short
2018-01-24T22:03:58Z dim: hehe, then turbo would shut it down electrically? nice! ;-)
2018-01-24T22:04:11Z dim: “from faster to done with it” ;-)
2018-01-24T22:05:46Z _death: dim: my advice then is to remove the unsafety declarations and if it's not crawling keep it that way
2018-01-24T22:07:58Z __rumbler31: yes exactly!
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2018-01-24T22:10:23Z Xach: Shinmera: they could be really big
2018-01-24T22:11:03Z Xach: Shinmera: I would like to include more, though
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2018-01-24T22:11:58Z Shinmera: Xach: having the last error/warning + backtrace would be very nice, I think.
2018-01-24T22:12:00Z Xach: Like commit info if applicable, maybe the error, part of the backtrace...not sure
2018-01-24T22:12:31Z dim: _death: sounds reasonable
2018-01-24T22:12:33Z Shinmera: You could use Dissect to handle the error/trace part :)
2018-01-24T22:14:03Z dim: it doesn't seem to have that of an effect in preliminary tests
2018-01-24T22:16:35Z dim: 36s to 38s in a test on CCL
2018-01-24T22:17:00Z dim: 22s to 23.5s on SBCL on the same test
2018-01-24T22:17:04Z dim: now I'm wondering.
2018-01-24T22:17:50Z dim: how much danger would (safety 0) be? what's the default?
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2018-01-24T22:21:06Z sjl: 1 is the "neutral value" according to the spec.  pretty sure most implementations make 1 the default.
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2018-01-24T22:23:57Z sjl: the amount of danger is implementation-specific
2018-01-24T22:24:00Z _death: dim: safety 0 means you're on the segfault-corruption scale if something isn't right..
2018-01-24T22:24:14Z sjl: segfaults/data corruption/buffer overflows
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2018-01-24T22:24:56Z dim: well... the patch makes it half as likely for pgloader (using SBCL) to end up in the lldb prompt because if Exhausted its memory space anyway
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2018-01-24T22:25:59Z dim: the typical user of pgloader runs the command and then does something else, segfault won't have more impact than another error condition to them I think, it's not as if I was playing with a live dev env from a lib down
2018-01-24T22:26:15Z dim: but yeah, I shoulndn't play (safety 0) that easily
2018-01-24T22:26:22Z _death: segfault is the best case scenario
2018-01-24T22:26:31Z sjl: es
2018-01-24T22:26:33Z sjl: *yes
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2018-01-24T22:27:04Z sjl: silently corrupting data they're inserting into the db would probably be more impactful
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2018-01-24T22:27:19Z dim: pushed a patch that removes safety optimisation in the declare forms
2018-01-24T22:27:52Z dim: thanks for your comments/feedback _death
2018-01-24T22:28:07Z dim: (and sjl
2018-01-24T22:28:14Z dim: oops, missed)
2018-01-24T22:28:24Z dim: ok I guess bedtime is calling now
2018-01-24T22:28:55Z dim: once again I didn't think it would be that “easy” to implement this idea of streaming without intermediate buffer when on-error-stop is picked
2018-01-24T22:29:01Z dim: Common-Lisp to the rescue ;-)
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2018-01-24T22:31:21Z _death: I spent most of my day writing C++.. and a bit of Lisp.. so CL to the rescue here as well :)
2018-01-24T22:34:43Z dim: hehe
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2018-01-24T22:35:10Z dim: for me it feels like I can do in a couple hours in CL what I would have done in a couple days in Python and a week or two in C
2018-01-24T22:35:42Z dim: (doing lots of C code again nowadays)
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2018-01-24T22:39:57Z z3t0: hi
2018-01-24T22:40:13Z z3t0: I have been hacking lisp for a few months and am now starting to write a small program
2018-01-24T22:40:26Z jasom: z3t0: congratulations
2018-01-24T22:40:36Z z3t0: Is there a good resource I can read up that explains how to organize my code?
2018-01-24T22:40:59Z jasom: z3t0: I don't know about good resource, but you should at least be using asdf
2018-01-24T22:41:10Z z3t0: I'll take a look at that, thanks
2018-01-24T22:41:22Z jasom is looking for a decent asdf tutorial
2018-01-24T22:41:39Z Shinmera: z3t0: Take a look at libraries with a lot of downloads I guess.
2018-01-24T22:42:18Z jasom: Shinmera: the downside to that is that there are such varied styles; it's usually easier to start with a single style when beginning
2018-01-24T22:43:57Z aeth: There are a few style guides for CL. Here's Google's: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2018-01-24T22:44:18Z aeth: Here's one of many copies of Norvig's: https://www.cs.umd.edu/%7Enau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2018-01-24T22:44:21Z rpg: There's one by Robert Strandh, as well.
2018-01-24T22:44:49Z rpg: Speaking of things, does anyone know if Chris Riesbeck's "CS linter" is still out there?
2018-01-24T22:44:59Z rpg: Has anyone taken it under their wing to maintain?
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2018-01-24T22:45:12Z aeth: I don't know anything about the quality of this guide or the author, but I just found this, which is high up on DuckDuckGo's results: http://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/
2018-01-24T22:45:16Z Xach: rpg: i put it in quicklisp, but it is not really maintained.
2018-01-24T22:45:30Z Xach: rpg: it is called "lisp-critic"
2018-01-24T22:46:23Z jasom: z3t0: I can't find a beginners tutorial, but you can get a skeleton setup using quickproject
2018-01-24T22:47:21Z pillton: aeth: I don't consider that a bug.
2018-01-24T22:47:26Z p_l: at least at one time a package-per-file approach was promoted and integrated into ASDF
2018-01-24T22:48:10Z aeth: pillton: I wasn't sure, which is why I didn't open an issue
2018-01-24T22:48:40Z aeth: It would be hard to do this accidentally.
2018-01-24T22:48:52Z z3t0: jasom: thanks
2018-01-24T22:49:05Z pillton: aeth: SBCL emits a warning anyhow.
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2018-01-24T22:49:19Z rpg: Xach: did you get it from the g000001 repo at github? That seems to be the root of the tree on github.
2018-01-24T22:49:36Z Xach: rpg: yes
2018-01-24T22:50:07Z rpg: thanks!
2018-01-24T22:50:32Z pillton: aeth: I considered doing something like that when implementing template-function.
2018-01-24T22:51:36Z rpg: p_l: package-per-file was integrated into ASDF, but I'm not sure I would say that it's clearly seen as The Right Thing.  It is pretty useful if you have complex and changing dependencies (like ASDF and UIOP), because it enables ASDF to figure them out for you.  But I can't say I like interacting with systems with that many namespaces, personally.
2018-01-24T22:51:55Z p_l: not calling them "The Right Thing"
2018-01-24T22:52:10Z p_l: especially since I don't do that :)
2018-01-24T22:52:15Z rpg: Especially since completion sometimes turns nice readable exported names into hard-to-read over-specific sub-packages.
2018-01-24T22:52:18Z p_l: just pointing out that it was pushed
2018-01-24T22:53:14Z rpg: I would say if you are writing your first system, then you shouldn't need a zillion packages to avoid name collisions.
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2018-01-24T22:53:48Z p_l: true :)
2018-01-24T22:53:54Z p_l: I used to go for package-per-directory
2018-01-24T22:54:10Z p_l: with `package.lisp` in each directory that did defpackage et al
2018-01-24T22:55:23Z Shinmera: I consider packages part of the user interface. They don't have much to do with how the code is organised internally, really.
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2018-01-24T22:55:58Z Xach: Sometimes my project is also the user
2018-01-24T22:56:56Z rpg: Shinmera: Occasionally I find myself introducing sub-packages, in cases where there's a clearly delineated sub-function (e.g., some specialized form of tree search), and I want to not have to worry about using common names like "search", "visited," etc.
2018-01-24T22:57:12Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2018-01-24T22:57:54Z p_l: Shinmera: If I were to go with package-per-file, I'd probably cleanly separate an "user-facing" package (possibly multiple) that would cover the APIs
2018-01-24T22:58:24Z rpg: p_l: that's what ASDF does.  It has its ASDF/INTERFACE package, that is nicknamed just ASDF.
2018-01-24T22:58:36Z Shinmera: I guess. I just feel like p-p-f encourages writing huge files, and incurs tedious symbol juggling.
2018-01-24T22:58:56Z _death: Shinmera: not in my experience
2018-01-24T22:59:31Z _death: Shinmera: I've already talked about package-inferred-systems advantages/disadvantages in the past though
2018-01-24T22:59:40Z Shinmera: I know.
2018-01-24T22:59:46Z rpg: Actually, since we're off into the package rabbithole, I should say that though I don't enjoy p-p-f, I *do* think that Fare's macros for defining packages have some really useful features.  Especially for p_l's example -- it's nice to have a defpackage variant that will import and then export a symbol with a single specification.
2018-01-24T23:00:09Z p_l: I just used conduits for that
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2018-01-24T23:01:17Z p_l: actually I'd often create a `cl3` package or similar that would use conduits to bridge conduits, closer-mop and bunch of other similar libs into common base language
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2018-01-24T23:02:22Z drewbert: Hi peeps.  I'm super new to lisp.  I'm looking at the core for a lisp I want to use in a project. I see it has def, which it uses to define defmacro, and defmacro defines defn, and defn seems to be defining runtime functions.  What is `def` ?
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2018-01-24T23:02:44Z Shinmera: Not Common Lisp.
2018-01-24T23:03:15Z sjl: sounds like clojure
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2018-01-24T23:04:06Z Shinmera: drewbert: Note the channel topic. This channel is for Common Lisp only. Other lisps have their own channels (#scheme, #clojure, for instance).
2018-01-24T23:04:24Z drewbert: gotcha, thanks. Sorry y'all.
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2018-01-24T23:04:49Z Shinmera: drewbert: There's also ##lisp for the family of languages, but I don't know how active it is.
2018-01-24T23:04:51Z aeth: ##lisp is the channel for the Lisp family of languages
2018-01-24T23:05:00Z aeth: oops, I was beaten to it
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2018-01-24T23:37:59Z z3t0_: are there any oauth2 libraries in common lisp?
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2018-01-24T23:41:46Z pjb: Yes, there are.
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2018-01-25T00:10:56Z z3t0_: What is the difference between nth-value and second, third etc?
2018-01-25T00:11:14Z Xach: z3t0_: nth-value relates to getting one of the multiple-values returned from a function via values
2018-01-25T00:11:14Z z3t0_: From what i can tell one of them is for cons but what is nth-value used for then?
2018-01-25T00:11:35Z z3t0_: ahh okay I see
2018-01-25T00:11:36Z Xach: z3t0_: common lisp can return multiple values from a function, like with decode-universal-time
2018-01-25T00:11:43Z z3t0_: Thanks
2018-01-25T00:11:48Z Xach: no problem
2018-01-25T00:12:14Z jasom: what does the prefix "dx-" mean in sbcl's internals (e.g. dx-flet)
2018-01-25T00:12:20Z aeth: z3t0_: you might be looking for nth
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2018-01-25T00:12:28Z z3t0_: aeth: yes that was it!
2018-01-25T00:12:29Z Xach: jasom: dynamic-extent was my impression.
2018-01-25T00:13:09Z pjb: (defun nth-value (n form) `(nth ,n (multiple-value-list ,form)))
2018-01-25T00:13:47Z pjb: only implementations will implement nth-value without consing the list!
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2018-01-25T00:14:00Z jasom: ugh, so dx-flet is a dynamic-extent flet?  That's confusing
2018-01-25T00:14:54Z jasom: wouldit work like this then? (defun foo () (bar)) (dx-flet ((bar () 1)) (foo)) => 1
2018-01-25T00:17:27Z z3t0_: how would i iterate over a cons
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2018-01-25T00:17:53Z z3t0_: actually, that's a silly question, never mind :)
2018-01-25T00:18:01Z Xach: z3t0_: you normally wouldn't. but it is normal to iterate over a chain of conses (a list) with dolist or loop.
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2018-01-25T00:18:46Z jasom: minion: tell z3t0_ about book
2018-01-25T00:18:47Z minion: book: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/book
2018-01-25T00:18:49Z z3t0_: I have a cons of elements that I need to go over in order to process each one, initially i thought of using loop for x in data but that doesn't seem to work
2018-01-25T00:18:51Z jasom: minion: tell z3t0_ about pcl
2018-01-25T00:18:51Z minion: z3t0_: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-01-25T00:19:00Z jasom: z3t0_: just in case you haven't found it
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2018-01-25T00:19:12Z z3t0_: thanks
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2018-01-25T00:19:24Z Xach: z3t0_: a cons has only two things in it, the car and the cdr.
2018-01-25T00:19:58Z jasom: z3t0_: a cons is just a pair; however they are often used to make a linked list (are you familiar with the linked-list data structure from other languages?)
2018-01-25T00:20:24Z z3t0_: Yes I am familiar with linked lists, not too sure about how to deal with them in cl htough
2018-01-25T00:20:26Z z3t0_: though*
2018-01-25T00:20:28Z pjb: The interesting thing is that in theory, everything can be built from pairs.
2018-01-25T00:20:53Z Xach: they are made of conses in cl
2018-01-25T00:21:05Z pjb: In practice, it's more efficient if the implementation provides primitive implementations of some other types, but it wouldn't be necessary.
2018-01-25T00:22:53Z jasom: z3t0_: when a CONS is used as a list (car FOO) gets you the data element and (cdr FOO) gets you the next cons in the chain
2018-01-25T00:23:24Z jasom: z3t0_: and similarly (loop for item in FOO ...) will iterate over the items in FOO, assuming FOO is a list
2018-01-25T00:24:24Z jasom: e.g. (loop for item in '(1 2 3 4 5) do (print item))
2018-01-25T00:26:43Z z3t0_: mapcar seems to achieve what I want
2018-01-25T00:29:08Z jasom: hmm, any ideas on how I could get an unhandled memory fault when not using FFI and restricting safety to 3?
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2018-01-25T00:38:38Z paule32: hello
2018-01-25T00:38:45Z paule32: where is the error?
2018-01-25T00:38:47Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/LX1H7w3K
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2018-01-25T00:46:44Z Xach: paule32: the error is not adding what you tried, what you expected, and what you got instead of what you expected.
2018-01-25T00:47:23Z paule32: hello Xach
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2018-01-25T00:47:45Z paule32: Xach: i would like to test a "half" adder, and "full" adder
2018-01-25T00:48:02Z paule32: the input: (2 3)
2018-01-25T00:48:14Z paule32: A = 2
2018-01-25T00:48:18Z paule32: B = 3
2018-01-25T00:48:30Z paule32: Cin = 0  ;; initial = 0
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2018-01-25T00:50:58Z paule32: so first: A + B = 5
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2018-01-25T00:52:34Z Xach: I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
2018-01-25T00:53:04Z jasom: paule32: half-adder has no effects whatsoever
2018-01-25T00:53:18Z Xach: paule32: i enjoy helping but the code you offer seems very far from the mark
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2018-01-25T00:53:39Z jasom: paule32: it could be replaced by just a function that always returns 'ok
2018-01-25T00:53:39Z Xach: paule32: my understanding of a half adder is that it works on bits, as well, and not something like 2 and 3...
2018-01-25T00:54:45Z paule32: first, i have wire / cable's
2018-01-25T00:55:03Z paule32: as structure
2018-01-25T00:55:20Z paule32: (for later => calculations)
2018-01-25T00:55:50Z paule32: then, i have circuits or, and, inv
2018-01-25T00:56:49Z paule32: A connect(ion) go into D => or-gate
2018-01-25T00:57:13Z paule32: B connect(ion) go into and-gate
2018-01-25T00:58:15Z paule32: so and-gate has
2018-01-25T00:58:37Z paule32: wire a b c
2018-01-25T00:59:15Z paule32: that is B
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2018-01-25T00:59:26Z paule32: A is
2018-01-25T00:59:43Z paule32: or-gate a b D
2018-01-25T00:59:46Z jasom: paule32: can you make a simple buffer out of two inverters with this, and show us it working?  Because right now this code literally does nothing other than return 'ok
2018-01-25T01:00:35Z paule32: yes, that is the problem
2018-01-25T01:00:53Z paule32: no condition
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2018-01-25T01:01:32Z jasom: presumably an and gate would have two wires on its input, and then assert some signal on its output; right now there are no side effects at all.
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2018-01-25T01:03:01Z paule32: and-gate a b c  => a = 2 b = 3  c = 5
2018-01-25T01:03:04Z paule32: ?
2018-01-25T01:04:06Z paule32: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-22.html#%_sec_3.3
2018-01-25T01:04:23Z paule32: figure 3.25
2018-01-25T01:04:40Z jasom: paule32: note that there is a function-call there, you've just put some symbols next to each other
2018-01-25T01:05:08Z jasom: e.g. if you type in: "1 2 3 4"  you haven't made a function call, you've just evaluated 4 expressions that do nothing
2018-01-25T01:05:25Z paule32: oh
2018-01-25T01:05:31Z jasom: "(or-gate a b d)" is not the same as "or-gate a b d"
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2018-01-25T01:06:35Z paule32: compare with pasted code
2018-01-25T01:08:01Z paule32: common lisp
2018-01-25T01:08:21Z jasom: right, but this part scheme and common lisp are the same; no parens means no function call
2018-01-25T01:08:58Z jasom: your wires are also missing actions; without actions you can't define the gate functions yet.
2018-01-25T01:09:06Z jasom: see add-action! in SICP
2018-01-25T01:09:54Z jasom: the inverter and and gates are provided in the book, but the or-gate is an exercise
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2018-01-25T01:11:32Z paule32: that means, i have to add condition by my self?
2018-01-25T01:11:52Z jasom: paule32: yes, CL doesn't come with a built-in logic simulator
2018-01-25T01:12:01Z paule32: haha
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2018-01-25T01:13:22Z paule32: 1:  and-gate = A & B => into and-gate
2018-01-25T01:13:47Z paule32: if a & b the same => C
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2018-01-25T01:14:33Z paule32: else
2018-01-25T01:14:52Z paule32: a & b => Einv
2018-01-25T01:15:03Z jasom: Thats an xnor actually
2018-01-25T01:15:31Z jasom: and is if A & B are logical high, C goes to logical high, otherwise C goes to logical low
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2018-01-25T01:16:41Z jasom: look at (define (and-gate a1 a2 output) ...) in SICP
2018-01-25T01:16:48Z jasom: anyway I have dinner now, good luck paule32
2018-01-25T01:16:59Z paule32: thx
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2018-01-25T02:50:02Z jack_rabbit: o/
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2018-01-25T04:33:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-25T04:48:22Z iqubic: Morning Beach.
2018-01-25T04:48:30Z iqubic: I hope your day has been well.
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2018-01-25T04:57:20Z beach: iqubic: Yes, thanks, but it has only lasted for an hour or so.
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2018-01-25T05:45:25Z iqubic: Oh, I see.
2018-01-25T05:45:59Z iqubic: I thought you were doing the thing where it's always "morning" when you enter an IRC channel and "night" when you leave.
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2018-01-25T06:30:51Z beach: Wow, more offers to help me with the work on SICL.  Perhaps I should convert to being a project manager instead of writing the code myself.
2018-01-25T06:32:26Z whoman: yeah! i think it is a good idea.
2018-01-25T06:32:47Z whoman: i've coded enough in my time i should be consulting rather than coding myself .. hmm
2018-01-25T06:34:35Z beach: I have always explored the design space by writing code, so that would have to change.  Or at least, I would have to stick to small code snippets for showing the consequences of some particular design decision.
2018-01-25T06:35:45Z whoman: hmm makes sense. architecting the garden geometry itself rather than tilling and plotting and weeding
2018-01-25T06:36:01Z beach: Sort of, yes.
2018-01-25T06:36:51Z whoman: oh, meta programming. program the programmers
2018-01-25T06:36:59Z whoman: real life macro
2018-01-25T06:37:44Z pillton: That is actually a better definition of the term meta programming.
2018-01-25T06:40:22Z phoe: why program the programs if you can program the programmers
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2018-01-25T06:50:30Z cess11: because the programs are more obedient
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2018-01-25T07:55:33Z shka: hello
2018-01-25T07:55:56Z shka: how should i call category of data structures that are sequences?
2018-01-25T07:56:04Z shka: as in: defclass
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2018-01-25T07:57:13Z shka: so i should not try to use 'sequence' because it is taken by cl itself
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2018-01-25T07:58:33Z phoe: ds:sequencec
2018-01-25T07:58:41Z phoe: I mean, ds:sequence
2018-01-25T07:59:46Z phoe: or, simply use an implementation that allows you to extend CL:SEQUENCE, see http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf
2018-01-25T08:00:16Z shka: uh, none of the options provided is actually good
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2018-01-25T08:00:27Z shka: whatever
2018-01-25T08:00:37Z phoe: but some are/will be better than others for what you are doing.
2018-01-25T08:00:49Z phoe: your decision. (:
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2018-01-25T08:35:27Z beach: Let's suppose I have an initial executable containing the image of a minimal Common Lisp system.  In particular, it does not contain an evaluator.  Now, I can cross compile DEFMETHOD forms so that the result is in a FASL file that can be loaded into that minimal image.
2018-01-25T08:35:41Z beach: The code for a method has already been processed by MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA, so the METHOD-FUNCTION of the method already contains definitions of NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD (we assume the default situation where a method function is called with a list of arguments and a list of next methods).
2018-01-25T08:35:50Z beach: So, in this minimal image, I must be able to call the applicable methods according to the method combination of the generic function.  I can't really call COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS or COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-CLASSES each time I call a generic function, because these are generic functions as well, so I would get into an infinite computation.
2018-01-25T08:36:14Z beach: But in SICL, I have a call history in every generic function.  It contains a list of pairs (S,E) where S is a signature consisting of classes of specialized arguments that have already been seen, and E is something that we can call an "effective method function".
2018-01-25T08:36:20Z beach: It is not an "effective method" because that term is define in the AMOP to be a form that needs to be converted by the evaluator to a function.  Now, after some methods have been loaded from FASL files, I need to be able to take them into account when I call the generic function.
2018-01-25T08:36:32Z beach: So when the call fails because the call history does not contain an existing pair that will do, I need to compute a new such pair.  But I can't do that by calling COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD, because the result of such a call would have to be evaluated.  So here is my tentative solution that I would like comments on:
2018-01-25T08:36:41Z beach: In the initial image, when a call to a generic function fails because there is no appropriate pair in the call history, I create a new one as follows: I call COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-CLASSES and perhaps also COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS as usual.  Then, instead of calling COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD, I call a different SICL-specific function called (say) COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD-FUNCTION.
2018-01-25T08:36:42Z beach: It takes the applicable methods and returns a closure that can be used as the E component of the pair.  The CODE for that closure is already in the image, so it is compiled.  Therefore, creating the effective method function does not require any evaluator.  Does this sound right, or am I missing something?
2018-01-25T08:36:47Z beach: Sorry for the long rant.
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2018-01-25T08:37:05Z beach: But it is quiet here, and it is on topic, so I guess it is OK.
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2018-01-25T08:46:22Z TMA: mop COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD
2018-01-25T08:46:22Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html
2018-01-25T08:52:08Z scymtym: beach: are the individual precompiled method functions compiled with particular lexical function bindings for NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD that are aware of this scheme?
2018-01-25T08:52:27Z beach: I don't think they have to be.
2018-01-25T08:52:59Z beach: When a method is defined, MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA is called to create a "method function".
2018-01-25T08:53:30Z beach: That method function, by default, takes a list of arguments to the generic function and a list of next methods.
2018-01-25T08:53:56Z beach: So, the cross compiler has already inserted definitions of NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD.
2018-01-25T08:53:58Z scymtym: sure, i was uncertain whether the way in which the list of next methods is passed is compatible between this scheme and the scheme eventually used once the compiler becomes available
2018-01-25T08:54:18Z beach: Yes, that would be the same scheme, at least by default.
2018-01-25T08:54:27Z scymtym: ok
2018-01-25T08:54:47Z beach: But later on, I will specify optimized versions for standard generic functions, so the methods would then have to be compiled again.
2018-01-25T08:56:00Z scymtym: i see
2018-01-25T08:56:06Z beach: Once I have the compiler in the image, I can ditch the first-class global environment that has been used for the initial image, and create a completely new first-class global environment that contains optimized versions of everything.
2018-01-25T08:57:31Z beach: Well, not "ditch".  It has to be kept around, but I can start a new one from scratch.
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2018-01-25T08:59:32Z scymtym: i will have to read more about the bootstrapping procedure to understand why that couldn't be done in the host lisp
2018-01-25T09:00:22Z beach: It probably could.
2018-01-25T09:00:33Z beach: But I want to keep the initial image as simple as possible.
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2018-01-25T09:02:15Z dim: what's the advantage of that design choice?
2018-01-25T09:02:25Z beach: The simple image?
2018-01-25T09:02:40Z beach: Or more generally?
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2018-01-25T09:04:28Z dim: the very simple image that depends on possibly nothing from the host? do you want to be able to bootstrap SICL from itself someday? I mean we have quite advanced Open Source standard CL implementations around that you could choose to depend on?
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2018-01-25T09:06:44Z beach: The executable image is supposed to be a complete Common Lisp implementation, so it can't depend on any existing implementation.  The host Common Lisp system, used to cross compile code to generate SICL FASLs and to create the initial image can in theory be any conforming Common Lisp implementation that also supports closer-mop.
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2018-01-25T09:07:23Z beach: So, yes, I do depend on existing Common Lisp implementations for bootstrapping.
2018-01-25T09:07:47Z beach: I am not sure that answers your question, though. :(
2018-01-25T09:09:04Z dim: I think it does
2018-01-25T09:09:18Z beach: Whew! :)
2018-01-25T09:09:45Z dim: the simple image you're talking to is its own thing, you cross-compile it but then it runs by itself, without the need of any CL host around, right?
2018-01-25T09:09:55Z beach: Correct.
2018-01-25T09:10:12Z dim: ok I didn't understand that from reading you here before ;-)
2018-01-25T09:10:52Z beach: Sorry!  It is hard for me to describe something that I have been so familiar with for such a long time.
2018-01-25T09:11:01Z dim: sure
2018-01-25T09:11:46Z dim: I though SICL was about offering pieces of CL implemented in CL, following the metamodular idea, so that if e.g. an implementation has loop and other things but not CLOS, it could use SICL implementation of CLOS
2018-01-25T09:12:00Z dim: or the other way around, provide CLOS and then get loop from SICL
2018-01-25T09:12:31Z dim: didn't understand that you want to produce a full CL image from SICL sources, and now the whole bootstrapping idea makes more sense
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2018-01-25T09:12:45Z Shinmera: SICL's LOOP uses LOOP, if I remember correctly
2018-01-25T09:13:12Z Shinmera: So it can't be used as a "plug in" source for features.
2018-01-25T09:14:32Z dim: so can you compile the SICL image from CL+SICL, then use this first SICL image to compile SICL again, and then use that second SICL image as a CL compiler/env?
2018-01-25T09:15:14Z dim: I think that's the classic compiler bootstrapping, in 3 stages, right? (I kind of remember that from classes ~20 years ago)
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2018-01-25T09:16:35Z beach: Shinmera: Correct, and it uses CLOS as well, which uses LOOP.
2018-01-25T09:17:26Z beach: dim: Sure, that's pretty much the plan.
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2018-01-25T09:19:25Z beach: dim: My initial plan was to define some kind of order between modules, so that one could start with some minimal Common Lisp implementation and then load modules in that order.  However, that turned out to be too painful because one would have to keep track of what subset of Common Lisp to use for each module.
2018-01-25T09:19:26Z beach: Also, the maintainability of the code would suffer from not being able to use the full language.  So I abandoned that idea.
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2018-01-25T09:27:45Z dim: yeah, and it's not like you are pioneering CL anymore, you can trust/depend on having a good solid first implementation of the standard to use ; hell you even have a choice of Open Source solutions
2018-01-25T09:28:08Z beach: Exactly.
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2018-01-25T09:30:14Z dmiles: How does SICL do on cl-ansi ?
2018-01-25T09:31:07Z dmiles: well i mean ansi-tests
2018-01-25T09:31:53Z beach: SICL doesn't exist, so currently it is not doing anything at all.
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2018-01-25T09:33:34Z dmiles: What do you mean by not existing?
2018-01-25T09:34:25Z dmiles: (not finished with the impl of SICL to have it run the tests?)
2018-01-25T09:34:37Z beach: There is not an executable file named `sicl' that you can start by typing `sicl' to your shell prompt.
2018-01-25T09:34:57Z beach: And there is currently no way of producing such an executable.
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2018-01-25T09:35:42Z dmiles: ah.. so right now one doesnt build an image that has a REPL ?
2018-01-25T09:35:53Z beach: It doesn't build an image at all.
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2018-01-25T09:37:16Z dmiles: ah I thought it was when you said the executable image is supposed to be a complete Common Lisp implementation, so it can't depend on any existing implementation.
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2018-01-25T09:38:21Z beach: I may have used present tense rather than future tense
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2018-01-25T09:38:52Z dmiles: naw you been using future tense correctly.
2018-01-25T09:39:15Z beach: It becomes too boring to write things like "the executable image (should I live long enough to make the bootstrapping procedure complete enough that such an image might actually work)...."
2018-01-25T09:40:16Z dmiles: *nod*
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2018-01-25T09:45:34Z dim: but at least you have a vision to share ;-)
2018-01-25T09:45:44Z beach: And a plan.
2018-01-25T09:45:50Z dim: and a plan, at that
2018-01-25T09:46:24Z dim: so SICL is about being able to write a full CL implementation in (only) CL, and with native first-class environments and some other nice improvements to the current standard, is that right?
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2018-01-25T09:47:18Z beach: Right.  The first-class global environments were invented mainly for the purpose of bootstrapping, but they can obviously be used for other purposes like sandboxing.
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2018-01-25T09:48:33Z beach: There are very few "improvements to the standard".  Mainly implementation techniques that I hope will be better than what currently exists.  Like the fast dispatch technique, and the implementation of the sequence functions.
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2018-01-25T09:53:14Z dim: in my book having generic “APIs” over sequences and streams (ala grey streams but natively so) and maybe hash table functions would be significant improvements to the standard “grey areas” (pun intended)
2018-01-25T09:53:28Z dim: (maybe s/grey/gray/)
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2018-01-25T09:53:46Z dim: but well I don't have a solid book about CL (yet?) anyway ;-)
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2018-01-25T09:54:15Z beach: Sure, those improvements are not terribly difficult.
2018-01-25T09:56:47Z dim: I wonder if stream level abstractions make sense for higher level (network) protocols, such as MySQL or PostgreSQL protocols
2018-01-25T09:57:41Z Shinmera: Having a streams API for arbitrary element types would be neat.
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2018-01-25T10:08:33Z jdz: Shinmera: you mean records?
2018-01-25T10:08:44Z jdz: Or binary/characters?
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2018-01-25T10:24:55Z Shinmera: I mean being able to use streams for stuff other than integers and characters.
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2018-01-25T10:25:34Z beach: Like functions?
2018-01-25T10:25:38Z Shinmera: For instance you could model exchange protocols with streams that emit objects representing messages.
2018-01-25T10:25:50Z Shinmera: So you could hide the wire details away.
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2018-01-25T10:33:37Z Shinmera: Would require a generic read-stream function to really be useful though.
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2018-01-25T10:57:41Z ebrasca: How to translate "(sum & 1)" to lisp?
2018-01-25T10:58:00Z Shinmera: That depends on what it's supposed to mean
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2018-01-25T10:59:48Z loke: ebrasca: Is that C?
2018-01-25T10:59:57Z loke: Then it's (logand sum 1)
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2018-01-25T11:00:21Z ebrasca: It come from http://termbin.com/l3vi probably it is C.
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2018-01-25T11:02:48Z Shinmera: (ldb (byte 1 0) sum) may or may not be a more clear way to write it.
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2018-01-25T11:04:54Z ebrasca: I have write http://termbin.com/b11k but for some reason don't give expected checksums.
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2018-01-25T11:17:36Z stylewarning: ebrasca: if you’re using SBCL there’s a dedicated function for that in the module SB-ROTATE-BYTE
2018-01-25T11:19:12Z ebrasca: stylewarning: I am implementing FAT32 for mezzano OS.
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2018-01-25T11:19:54Z stylewarning: ebrasca: then it might be worth abstracting it into a portable function and implementing the assembly code for it! :D
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2018-01-25T11:51:35Z ebrasca: Yea my checksum work . First working version http://termbin.com/1p42
2018-01-25T11:52:38Z ebrasca: Shinmera , loke and stylewarning : Thanks you.
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2018-01-25T12:47:21Z chenbin:  emacswiki's install-elisp and melpa's package-archives, which is
2018-01-25T12:47:21Z chenbin: 	  suggested?
2018-01-25T12:48:11Z Shinmera: Try #emacs
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2018-01-25T13:05:52Z megachombasss: hello guys. do you see any redundant code, errors, or things i could do in other way in this code? https://codepaste.net/bc72wz
2018-01-25T13:06:08Z beach: Plenty.
2018-01-25T13:06:22Z beach: Never put a parenthesis by itself on a line.
2018-01-25T13:06:33Z beach: In fact, never put whitespace after ( or before ).
2018-01-25T13:06:43Z beach: Use three semicolons on the top level.
2018-01-25T13:07:00Z beach: Don't have blank lines inside top-level expressions.
2018-01-25T13:07:10Z beach: Indent your code properly.
2018-01-25T13:07:44Z beach: Don't use CamelCase.  Use dashes to separate words in a name.
2018-01-25T13:07:53Z beach: And use just lower-case symbols.
2018-01-25T13:08:34Z beach: And it's a bad idea to use identifiers in some language other than English, especially if, like now, you want an international crowd to understand it.
2018-01-25T13:09:40Z megachombasss: hum, could you give me an example of these error fix on one of my functions?
2018-01-25T13:09:42Z beach: Don't use the "get-" prefix in Common Lisp.  Don't use the "is-" prefix either.  Use the "p" suffix instead.
2018-01-25T13:09:59Z beach: Is it not clear what I mean?
2018-01-25T13:10:16Z megachombasss: i have some troubles with english sorry
2018-01-25T13:11:50Z beach: OK, let's start over.
2018-01-25T13:12:09Z beach: Do you know what whitespace is?  Like blanks, tabs, and newlines?
2018-01-25T13:12:43Z megachombasss:  whitespace yes
2018-01-25T13:12:46Z beach: Never put one of those before a closing parenthesis or after an opening parenthesis.
2018-01-25T13:12:58Z beach: In particular, do not put a closing parenthesis on a line by itself.
2018-01-25T13:13:16Z megachombasss: okey. what abou three semicolons on the top level
2018-01-25T13:13:19Z megachombasss: i dont understand that
2018-01-25T13:13:35Z beach: You have ;; ******** Fonction pour ....
2018-01-25T13:13:46Z beach: You should have ;;; ******* Function for....
2018-01-25T13:13:53Z beach: With three semicolons.
2018-01-25T13:13:57Z megachombasss: what does it change?
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2018-01-25T13:14:07Z beach: It will then follow conventions.
2018-01-25T13:14:13Z megachombasss: oh ok
2018-01-25T13:14:22Z megachombasss: Don't use CamelCase.  Use dashes to separate words in a name.
2018-01-25T13:14:26Z megachombasss: dont understand that neither
2018-01-25T13:14:33Z beach: Emacs indents three semicolons so that they are at the left margin, but two semicolons so that it is indented with the code.
2018-01-25T13:15:04Z beach: CamelCase, is when you have a capital letter in the middle of a word, like resolutionEtiquette.
2018-01-25T13:15:38Z beach: In Common Lisp, we don't use CamelCase.  Use resolution-etiquette, or rather resolution-label instead.
2018-01-25T13:16:07Z beach: Indent your code properly.  Use an editor that knows about indentation.
2018-01-25T13:16:23Z beach: For instance Emacs, SLIME, and the SLIME contribution called slime-indentation.
2018-01-25T13:16:37Z paule32: hello
2018-01-25T13:16:40Z paule32: (defvar *or-gate*  (list a b d))
2018-01-25T13:16:56Z paule32: (defun half-adder (a b d) (find *or-gate* (list a b d) :test #'equal))
2018-01-25T13:17:05Z beach: megachombasss: Perhaps it is a problem with TAB characters.  In that case, make sure you don't use TABs in the code.
2018-01-25T13:17:12Z paule32: the result is always nil
2018-01-25T13:17:26Z megachombasss: y i use mix of tab and space
2018-01-25T13:17:55Z beach: megachombasss: Some paste services can handle it.  Some others can't.  It is best to avoid TABs.
2018-01-25T13:18:36Z stylewarning: paule32: what are A B D?
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2018-01-25T13:18:47Z stylewarning: In the *or-gate*
2018-01-25T13:18:55Z beach: stylewarning: You are wasting your time.
2018-01-25T13:19:00Z stylewarning: Oh ok
2018-01-25T13:19:09Z paule32: (defstruct wire (p1 100 :type integer))
2018-01-25T13:19:17Z paule32: (defvar a (make-wire :p1  0))
2018-01-25T13:19:21Z stylewarning: beach: how’s it going?
2018-01-25T13:19:29Z beach: megachombasss: Don't use the "set-" prefix.  Use a SETF function instead.  LIke (defun (setf drapeaux) ...).  Even better, (defun (setf flag) ...).
2018-01-25T13:19:35Z paule32: (defvar b (make-wire :p1  0))
2018-01-25T13:19:38Z beach: stylewarning: Fine thanks.  And you?
2018-01-25T13:19:47Z paule32: (defvar c (make-wire :p1  0))
2018-01-25T13:20:01Z stylewarning: Well as well. Hope to chip away at some substantive ELS writing today
2018-01-25T13:20:04Z beach: paule32: Stop it, please.
2018-01-25T13:20:17Z beach: stylewarning: Excellent.
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2018-01-25T13:21:06Z beach: megachombasss: So, fix the whitespace, the semicolons, the CamelCase, and the language, and then resubmit.
2018-01-25T13:21:47Z megachombasss: got another question
2018-01-25T13:21:55Z megachombasss: right now i have an error when i load this file
2018-01-25T13:22:03Z megachombasss: says that i have a , before a backquote
2018-01-25T13:22:03Z beach: megachombasss: Also, go read a text book on Common Lisp, and you will see how different their code looks from yours.
2018-01-25T13:22:13Z megachombasss: hence it doesnt says where the error is
2018-01-25T13:22:17Z megachombasss: so its like so hard to fix
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2018-01-25T13:22:47Z stylewarning: megachombasss: is it hard to search for a misplaced ,?
2018-01-25T13:22:58Z megachombasss: i dont have the contrl+Z
2018-01-25T13:23:02Z megachombasss: so it can be anywhere
2018-01-25T13:23:08Z beach: (format t "~%print pour make-hash-table ~a", <- there
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2018-01-25T13:23:36Z beach: megachombasss: What implementation of Common Lisp are you using that it doesn't tell you where it is?
2018-01-25T13:24:10Z megachombasss: nvm, found it
2018-01-25T13:24:26Z megachombasss: im using clisp 2.49
2018-01-25T13:24:30Z beach: megachombasss: Most people here recommend SBCL, CCL, or ECL.
2018-01-25T13:24:54Z beach: megachombasss: So if you want help, it is better to use one of the more widely used implementations.
2018-01-25T13:25:17Z megachombasss: well, i have to use the one installed on university pc's
2018-01-25T13:25:18Z megachombasss: oldshcool
2018-01-25T13:25:31Z beach: What university is that?
2018-01-25T13:25:56Z stylewarning: megachombasss: your CASE INST shouldn’t have the case clause symbols quoted
2018-01-25T13:26:07Z Shinmera: You could try https://portacle.github.io, which will ship SBCL and should run without installation or admin privs.
2018-01-25T13:26:56Z megachombasss: well, knowing i have only 1 day left for refactor this code , gonna be hard
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2018-01-25T13:27:40Z beach: Oh, so I am wasting my time.  You are not going to want to learn Common Lisp after this assignment is due.  I guess I'll go do something else then.
2018-01-25T13:31:39Z megachombasss: tbh lisp itself doesnt interest me at all, knowing i have to do this project and teacher didnt give a single course on how lisp works
2018-01-25T13:31:54Z megachombasss: we must do a lisp VM and a lisp COMPILER without a course of lisp
2018-01-25T13:32:21Z Shinmera: Well you won't endear us to doing your course work for you
2018-01-25T13:32:30Z stylewarning: megachombasss: Lisp is a wonderful language to write such things.
2018-01-25T13:33:12Z megachombasss: nono, dont ask you to do my course work (as  i literally had no courses about it)
2018-01-25T13:33:25Z megachombasss: just you to see if there are things that can be made diferrently
2018-01-25T13:34:00Z beach: You never told us what university this is.
2018-01-25T13:34:12Z stylewarning: megachombasss: If you’re a beginning programmer, then the book Common Lisp: A Gentle Intro by Touretzky is a great book to teach yourself Lisp. If you know another programming language at an advanced level, then Practical Common Lisp is a great resource.
2018-01-25T13:35:23Z stylewarning: megachombasss: unfortunately for beginners, it’s easy to write bad Lisp code, with poor efficiency, style, and use of the language features
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2018-01-25T13:37:21Z paule32: stylewarning: https://pastebin.com/njYeQzyA
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2018-01-25T13:38:39Z beach: paule32: Why do you keep doing this?  I don't understand.
2018-01-25T13:39:24Z paule32: beach: i would ask, why the result of "compare" always is nil
2018-01-25T13:40:02Z stylewarning: paule32: Write a function called GATE-EQUAL which tests if two gates are the same for your purpose. Happy to help after you’ve done that and can explain that function to me.
2018-01-25T13:40:29Z beach: paule32: I am asking you why, despite being told an uncountable number of times, you continue submitting code that does not respect the conventions.  I have told you over and over again that it is very impolite.  And you keep right on doing it.
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2018-01-25T13:57:34Z KZiemian: hello world!
2018-01-25T13:58:14Z KZiemian: do you know that book "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya Keene is free to download
2018-01-25T13:58:31Z KZiemian: or it need to be bought to read it with clear concience?
2018-01-25T13:59:06Z KZiemian: I don't want steel work of better programer than me
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2018-01-25T13:59:18Z beach: Hello KZiemian.  It didn't use to be downloadable.  May it has changed.
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2018-01-25T14:00:30Z Xach: KZiemian: i am nearly certain it is not free to download
2018-01-25T14:02:15Z KZiemian: Xach: thank you for information
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2018-01-25T14:11:00Z megachombasss: https://codepaste.net/3nyez7 i dont manage to see where the hell he finds more than 2 params for the if?
2018-01-25T14:12:03Z Bike: (if (gethash ...) (setmemoire ...) (gethash ...) (progn ...))
2018-01-25T14:12:21Z Bike: four
2018-01-25T14:13:55Z pjb: megachombasss: http://sprunge.us/gdaZ
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2018-01-25T14:14:32Z pjb: megachombasss: look at the parentheses under the IF.  There should be only one or two!
2018-01-25T14:15:28Z pjb: megachombasss: notice, if you used setf as I told you yesterday, and as I explain again in my sprunge, you wouldn't have to call gethash twice, since setf already returns the last value assigned!
2018-01-25T14:16:32Z megachombasss: wait a sec, the source code of what you've sent me seems exactly as the same i using, hence the one im using wasnt that one
2018-01-25T14:16:45Z megachombasss: so im refactoring a code that someone refactored of another code? dafuk
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2018-01-25T14:17:45Z pjb: megachombasss: it looks like the code shown in the error message you get is expanded from a macro.
2018-01-25T14:18:00Z Guest95035 is now known as kolb
2018-01-25T14:18:57Z pjb: megachombasss: have a look at: http://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2018-01-25T14:19:17Z megachombasss: could you link me the source code of what you've sent me?
2018-01-25T14:19:36Z Xach: megachombasss: who?
2018-01-25T14:19:42Z pjb: megachombasss: when you get an error, you need to locate the source of the error; it's not always the form or the frame the debugger shows; you have to look up in the stack frames, to locate the actual source form or frame where the error occured.
2018-01-25T14:19:50Z pjb: megachombasss: http://sprunge.us/gdaZ
2018-01-25T14:19:50Z megachombasss: coz he may explain some fonctions i got no clue of what they do
2018-01-25T14:20:18Z pjb: megachombasss: so in the case of your error, it's actually in case-saut!
2018-01-25T14:20:35Z megachombasss: ye , but is that the only source? coz they should be more fonctions
2018-01-25T14:20:39Z megachombasss: where did you get that from
2018-01-25T14:21:15Z pjb: what?
2018-01-25T14:21:44Z pjb: I get a lot of things from a lot of different sources.
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2018-01-25T14:22:15Z megachombasss: well, the code you just pasted me, its exactly what i need. BUT, they should be more functions in that code
2018-01-25T14:22:22Z megachombasss: so i was wondering where did you get that from
2018-01-25T14:22:41Z pjb: megachombasss: I'm not rewriting your whole project! It comes from my brains!
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2018-01-25T14:23:36Z pjb: Youngsters these days!  They believe things come from out there, from the Internet, instead of from the brains of somebody, including themselves!
2018-01-25T14:23:41Z pjb: You are hopeless!
2018-01-25T14:24:03Z Bike: well there's no case-saut in your paste
2018-01-25T14:24:09Z megachombasss: oh wait a sec
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2018-01-25T14:24:19Z megachombasss: so you actually wrote that from what i've sent earlyer?
2018-01-25T14:24:21Z pjb: Bike: case-saut is in megachombasss's code.
2018-01-25T14:24:31Z pjb: megachombasss: of course. It's a commentary on it.
2018-01-25T14:24:40Z megachombasss: DAMN it, now i understand lol
2018-01-25T14:24:50Z megachombasss: then im going to take a close look at it to see
2018-01-25T14:24:59Z Bike: oh, there it is, my msitake
2018-01-25T14:25:32Z Bike: looks kind of like the weird indentation makes it hard to see the broken if
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2018-01-25T14:26:01Z pjb: Well, I don't know, first thing I do when I load bad lisp code in emacs, is C-x h C-M-\
2018-01-25T14:26:23Z pjb: and then M-x replace-regexp ) C-q C-j SPC * ) RET )) RET
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2018-01-25T14:26:40Z pjb: How else could you read ita?
2018-01-25T14:26:47Z pjb: s/a?/?/
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2018-01-25T14:33:48Z megachombasss: i still have problems with this if clause. source :  https://codepaste.net/rodwcr
2018-01-25T14:34:07Z megachombasss: dont know why it says i have to much arguments for the if condition, when i have 2 in both of them
2018-01-25T14:34:24Z beach: It looks like you didn't follow one single piece of advice I gave you.
2018-01-25T14:34:59Z pjb: megachombasss: it should look like: http://sprunge.us/FKYI
2018-01-25T14:35:00Z megachombasss: it isnt that, before putting it "on the clisp standard", i need that the code work first
2018-01-25T14:35:20Z pjb: megachombasss: it can help to use emacs, with slime and paredit, so that indentation is performed automatically and correctly by emacs.
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2018-01-25T14:35:44Z beach: megachombasss: You don't understand.  You are submitting your code for others to read.  If you don't follow conventions, you are putting the burden on those other people, and that is VERY impolite.
2018-01-25T14:36:19Z beach: megachombasss: Is this the first time you program?
2018-01-25T14:36:26Z beach: ... in any language, I mean?
2018-01-25T14:36:41Z megachombasss: pjb, the code you gave me is still giving me a IF error
2018-01-25T14:36:54Z megachombasss: yes, i am experienced in other languages, c, c++, java , python
2018-01-25T14:37:55Z beach: megachombasss: Then you know that if you want to communicate your code for others to read, it must have the correct indentation, spacing, naming convention, etc.
2018-01-25T14:37:59Z pjb: megachombasss: for resetMemoire, you need &key or &optional: defun resetMemoire (&key (VM 'vm) (tmem 10000))
2018-01-25T14:38:31Z pjb: megachombasss: I told you the IF error was in case-saut, not in case-other!
2018-01-25T14:38:42Z megachombasss: ah, in case saut? let me check
2018-01-25T14:39:00Z pjb: You don't even need to know how to read, just to copy-and-paste-and-search…
2018-01-25T14:39:06Z ghard: sheesh :)
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2018-01-25T14:40:11Z megachombasss: well, give me a couple minutes that i fix all this mess, put it in decent clisp lookin, and i come back
2018-01-25T14:40:19Z pjb: ok
2018-01-25T14:41:26Z pjb: In universities, they should start by teaching emacs, as a prerequisite to any programming courses…
2018-01-25T14:42:15Z dlowe: One of my "todo" projects is to make a really nice stand-alone source code formatter for CL.
2018-01-25T14:42:29Z dlowe: If someone else wants to pick that up, it'd be great.
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2018-01-25T14:43:32Z pjb: Can be based on emacs, you can write stand alone scripts with emacs…
2018-01-25T14:43:35Z ghard: Naah you cannot install emacs with npm :(
2018-01-25T14:43:50Z pjb: Then it only means npm doesn't exist.
2018-01-25T14:44:12Z ghard: It doesn't for me :)
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2018-01-25T14:44:57Z dlowe: One not based on emacs :p
2018-01-25T14:45:30Z tazjin: @dlowe why would you want to reimplement everything emacs already has though?
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2018-01-25T14:46:02Z muyinliu: pjb: The Emacs stuff remind me of the early days...It's quite difficult to get used to Emacs.
2018-01-25T14:46:03Z tazjin: writing executable elisp scripts is trivial and emacs is widely available (and much easier to install than npm and all the rest of that ecosystem)
2018-01-25T14:46:11Z dlowe: tazjin: I wouldn't need everything emacs has, so I don't understand your question
2018-01-25T14:46:40Z pjb: In typical programs, you don't use all of libc, but you still link with it..
2018-01-25T14:47:12Z ghard: Things coud be worse - my daughter has her first programming course in the uni so I had to install netbeans on one of my boxen...
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2018-01-25T14:50:25Z muyinliu: ghard: What program language did she learn?
2018-01-25T14:50:46Z ghard: The abomination - Java
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2018-01-25T14:51:12Z pjb: bah, java 8 has lambda…
2018-01-25T14:51:44Z pjb: Be sure to show her FizzBuzz, Enterprise Edition…
2018-01-25T14:51:45Z ghard: Guess so, but still I thought I left all that boilerplate behind in around 2001
2018-01-25T14:52:12Z ghard: Call me again when java is homoiconic and has proper macros ;)
2018-01-25T14:52:36Z pjb: I don't remember if FizzBuzz Enterprise Edition uses the Interpreter Pattern.  Perhaps it can be improved…
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2018-01-25T14:53:27Z megachombasss: well, i've fixed the error in case-saut
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2018-01-25T14:53:30Z ghard: Thing is she's studying molecular biology, not CS so they don't care about programming hygiene
2018-01-25T14:53:51Z megachombasss: therefore, event with your comments, i have high troubles understanding some of the transformations you recomend me to do
2018-01-25T14:54:32Z megachombasss: so sir pjb, i would really need asistance of this. im whiling to pay if needed , but i really need to present something for tomorrow
2018-01-25T14:54:41Z megachombasss: actually, my university career depends of this
2018-01-25T14:54:48Z pjb: megachombasss: in C or C++, you would use a struct to define vm?  Then use defstruct in CL!
2018-01-25T14:54:50Z megachombasss: lisp is a pure nightmare for me
2018-01-25T14:55:39Z pjb: megachombasss: it's really a programming language just like any other. Since you said you know already four of them, you should be able to jump into CL without any problem.  There's nothing different.
2018-01-25T14:55:55Z megachombasss: well actually so much parenthesis give headache
2018-01-25T14:56:03Z megachombasss: im having more troubles with the language itself than with the VM
2018-01-25T14:56:07Z pjb: Like in Java and Python, there are objects, classes, methods, a garbage collector.
2018-01-25T14:56:22Z pjb: megachombasss: there are fewer parentheses in lisp than in C or worse, C++!
2018-01-25T14:56:35Z ghard: megachombass: emacs is your friend if you have problems with counting parentheses
2018-01-25T14:56:37Z pjb: (if you count {} [] <> as parentheses too, which you should0.
2018-01-25T14:57:37Z zazzerino: megachombasss: the parenthesis are giving you a headache because you're not using an editor that can help you deal with them. You've already been told this but it didn't seem to get though- try using https://portacle.github.io/
2018-01-25T14:57:53Z megachombasss: using gedit
2018-01-25T14:57:58Z pjb: Well, no.
2018-01-25T14:58:06Z megachombasss: not familliar with emacs, and those are the only few installed on these computers
2018-01-25T14:58:07Z zazzerino: megachombasss: yes, and that's making things difficult for you
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2018-01-25T14:58:33Z pjb: megachombasss: but if you do, you use it wrong, because it features: * Bracket matching !!!!
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2018-01-25T14:59:34Z pjb: megachombasss: furthermore, it even has a lisp syntax highlighting module: https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2253625
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2018-01-25T15:00:00Z muyinliu: megachombasss: You REALLY need Emacs with rainbow-delimiters, take a look at this: http://pasteall.org/pic/index.php?id=123935
2018-01-25T15:01:25Z zazzerino: Are there really universities that require Common Lisp for projects but don't allow students to install or use emacs? I find it hard to believe, but I didn't study programming in school...
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2018-01-25T15:02:34Z ghard: Worse - dropping someone into CL straight from imperative languages without giving an initial course first.
2018-01-25T15:02:36Z pjb: Universities let you use any tool you want in general.
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2018-01-25T15:05:16Z rumbler31: There's no way this user hasn't had a lead up of some kind to have to use lisp for their final project.  There's no fooling us in that regard.  But it is not uncommon for departments to set up hosted machines where students must save and submit their work.
2018-01-25T15:06:07Z rumbler31: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/execute_lisp_online.php
2018-01-25T15:06:16Z rumbler31: in browser editor with paren matching.  too easy
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2018-01-25T15:07:25Z rumbler31: ok i take that back, paren matching is a little weak, but
2018-01-25T15:08:20Z rumbler31: but its got htat repl experience, using clisp 2.49
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2018-01-25T15:10:00Z rumbler31: megachombasss: see my link
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2018-01-25T15:12:21Z muyinliu: rumbler31: This online-editor is quire poor, without auto-indent or colorful parentheses...
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2018-01-25T15:13:13Z rumbler31: its not great.  but its better than gedit, and I can't find the other ones that were fully featured
2018-01-25T15:15:11Z sebastien_: which GTK+ binding would you recommend for a new application? cl-cffi-gtk or gtk-cffi?
2018-01-25T15:16:31Z sebastien_: the difference between the two is not obvious at first glance, though cl-cffi-gtk seems more maintained
2018-01-25T15:20:22Z zazzerino: sebastien_: I don't personally have experience with either, but I know nEXT browser (https://github.com/next-browser/next) uses cl-cffi-gtk
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2018-01-25T15:21:42Z sebastien_: zazzerino: thanks for the data point
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2018-01-25T15:25:58Z muyinliu: I wrote a Common Lisp CFFI wrapper for GraphicsMagickWand: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-graphicsmagick
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2018-01-25T15:28:21Z rumbler31: thank you!
2018-01-25T15:29:16Z muyinliu: And a CFFI wrap of fswatch, a cross-platform file change monitor: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-fswatch
2018-01-25T15:31:46Z rumbler31: I've always wanted to wrap native libs but it seems intimidating.  how did you get started? did you leveerage any automatic header file parsing?
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2018-01-25T15:33:22Z muyinliu: rumbler31: No...Only SWIG could be a little help :(
2018-01-25T15:34:18Z zazzerino: rumbler31: cffi has excellent documentation. Something that's nice about wrapping libs in cl is you can do it interactively, and can start with just the functions you need.
2018-01-25T15:34:35Z muyinliu: rumbler31: Mostly I wrote those CFFI wrapper by hand.
2018-01-25T15:34:51Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Just type it out
2018-01-25T15:37:12Z rumbler31: shinmera: speaking of which, I know that wrapping c++ libs is a different beast.  how did you learn what you needed to know to make it happen?
2018-01-25T15:37:20Z Shinmera: I did not
2018-01-25T15:38:19Z Shinmera: If you do need to do it though the strategy is simple: write a C library that exposes all constructors, methods, functions, and structs. Then bind that. It's extremely tedious though, so I'd never do it myself.
2018-01-25T15:38:38Z rumbler31: Er, well, what exactly did you do?
2018-01-25T15:38:44Z muyinliu: zazzerino: The demo in CFFI's doc is not complete(especially about how to wrap Windows libs). I have to try my best to collect info from everywhere :(
2018-01-25T15:38:51Z Shinmera: I never wrapped any C++ libraries
2018-01-25T15:39:52Z muyinliu: rumbler31: Can't wrap C++ libs directly. Sadly.
2018-01-25T15:40:04Z rumbler31: well I guess i didn't technically mean directly
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2018-01-25T15:40:57Z muyinliu: rumbler31: You have to write some C code to wrap C++ functions.
2018-01-25T15:43:02Z pjb: OR, implement the name mangler of your C++ compiler.
2018-01-25T15:43:35Z zazzerino: I found it useful to look at examples in the domain I'm currently working on (audio programming). Tito Latini wrote some relatively simple wrappers for a few c libs for his Incudine library. You can find them at https://sourceforge.net/p/incudine/incudine/ci/master/tree/contrib/
2018-01-25T15:43:59Z zazzerino: won't help much with c++ libs, though...
2018-01-25T15:44:04Z muyinliu: pjb: Is there any example?
2018-01-25T15:44:06Z pjb: OR use clasp.
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2018-01-25T15:44:32Z muyinliu: pjb: clasp...LOL
2018-01-25T15:44:45Z Shinmera: What's "lol" about it
2018-01-25T15:44:58Z pjb: the name :-)
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2018-01-25T15:45:52Z Shinmera: Okey
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2018-01-25T15:47:23Z rumbler31: shinmera: so what did you target to get access to qt?
2018-01-25T15:47:31Z Shinmera: I didn't write CommonQt
2018-01-25T15:48:05Z rumbler31: wow I could have sworn that was you
2018-01-25T15:48:11Z Shinmera: I wrote Qtools.
2018-01-25T15:48:40Z Shinmera: Anyway, even CommonQt didn't really bind C++, it used Smoke which is an autogenerated C wrapper for Qt.
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2018-01-25T15:50:47Z rumbler31: oh, thank you for clearing that up
2018-01-25T15:51:09Z rumbler31: and on another note, I feel that linking c++ libs is more complicated than simply implementing the correct name mangling
2018-01-25T15:51:48Z Shinmera: Well if you want dynamic dispatch you'll also need to implement how vtables work
2018-01-25T15:52:20Z Shinmera: And if you want exception handling, you'll need to handle that as well (good luck with that one)
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2018-01-25T15:53:05Z Shinmera: But, even with just name mangling (and thus static dispatch) you can get pretty far.
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2018-01-25T15:54:56Z rumbler31: so if you want to call a constructor for classes with heirarchies and dynamic dispatch, you have to do all that yourself, call the base class constructors in order, wire up the vtables.
2018-01-25T15:56:04Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly constructors are override unless they explicitly call super or whatever, so you don't need to implement that bit.
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2018-01-25T15:59:57Z rumbler31: so objects store virtual methods as pointers to a central vtable, right?
2018-01-25T16:00:17Z rumbler31: ahh i'll go google it
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2018-01-25T16:14:07Z beach: It would probably be faster to use my generic dispatch technique than to use vtables.
2018-01-25T16:14:42Z Shinmera: Yeah, if you replicate the type hierarchy on the lisp side you can implement the dispatch yourself.
2018-01-25T16:15:44Z Shinmera: Well, the type hierarchy and method attachment (which classes even define a method of their own)
2018-01-25T16:16:51Z beach: It would be somewhat ironic, though, if the fastest C++ implementation would use a dispatch technique from Common Lisp.
2018-01-25T16:17:25Z Shinmera: Wasn't there a JS compiler in CL that was faster than browser engines at the time
2018-01-25T16:17:59Z beach: Possibly.  I don't think I ever kept track of JavaScript stuff.
2018-01-25T16:18:22Z Xach: cl-js is cool but even when new was a generation behind in performance
2018-01-25T16:18:39Z Xach: i would still like to use it to try to make a js interface for non-cl users to customize cl software.
2018-01-25T16:19:05Z rumbler31: that doesn't help if the library code needs to call the virtual methods, does it?
2018-01-25T16:19:21Z Shinmera: the library code will use whatever's baked in to the library.
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2018-01-25T16:20:14Z rumbler31: if library code calls a virtual method on an object you passed it, the resolution of the final function call comes from a callback in lisp, right?
2018-01-25T16:20:31Z Shinmera: No, why?
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2018-01-25T16:23:41Z pjb: megachombasss: https://pastebin.com/7pTwi9fh
2018-01-25T16:24:16Z Bike: making generic functions static seems like a bit of an endeavor. And you'd either get a combinatorial explosion or have to assume some aspects of the class hierarchy don't change (you have to assume that anyway, of course)
2018-01-25T16:24:19Z rumbler31: because the object has a pointer to the vtable, if the library code makes calls to virtual functions, the compiler would have baked in the pointer lookups to the correct call.  so what gets given to the library would need to be an object with a pointer to a table of function pointers, and if those pointers resolve to functions in lisp then they'd need to be callbacks
2018-01-25T16:24:55Z Shinmera: rumbler31: I'm not talking about allowing you to add methods from the lisp side.
2018-01-25T16:25:06Z Shinmera: just replicating the dispatch that is already present in the library.
2018-01-25T16:25:14Z Shinmera: to avoid having to know about the vtable layout.
2018-01-25T16:25:50Z rumbler31: but doesn't library code making those calls need that information?
2018-01-25T16:26:03Z Shinmera: that's already baked into the library. How else could it possibly function?
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2018-01-25T16:30:38Z rumbler31: I've typed up several lines.  But the only common response among them is "I don't know"
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2018-01-25T16:31:28Z Shinmera: That's because it doesn't function otherwise.
2018-01-25T16:32:54Z Shinmera: I don't know how exactly it works in C++, but typically a method call with dynamic dispatch works as follows: dereference the object to get the vtable, load the value from a fixed offset in that table for the specific method you want to call, then simply call that value (address) with the rest of the arguments.
2018-01-25T16:33:26Z Shinmera: The vtable is part of the static memory allocated by the library.
2018-01-25T16:34:51Z rumbler31: I must be reading too much into what you said earlier.
2018-01-25T16:34:57Z rumbler31: but that answers a few questions
2018-01-25T16:35:05Z Shinmera: If you know 1) what the class hierarchy is 2) which classes define which methods, and 3) what type an object has at runtime, you can replicate the dispatch without needing to even look at the vtable.
2018-01-25T16:35:37Z Shinmera: Or the object's storage for that matter.
2018-01-25T16:35:46Z rumbler31: ohhhhh
2018-01-25T16:35:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-25T16:36:09Z rumbler31: hold pointers to the library methods in lisp, dispatch in lisp to the correct calls
2018-01-25T16:36:13Z Shinmera: Yes.
2018-01-25T16:36:27Z beach: ... which would also be faster than what the library does. :)
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2018-01-25T16:37:19Z rumbler31: I mistakenly assumed that the runtime is responsible for wiring up the vtable
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2018-01-25T16:37:47Z beach: You attribute way too much dynamic behavior to C++, I think. :)
2018-01-25T16:38:04Z rumbler31: lol indeed
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2018-01-25T16:41:59Z TMA: beach: not necessarily faster. it is three instructions (two memory fetches and one indirect call) in the case of single inheritance; it is more involved in the multiple inheritance case and in case of virtual base classes, but it is hard to beat the performance of the simple case
2018-01-25T16:43:11Z Shinmera: I think beach's method can be faster because it does no memory fetches.
2018-01-25T16:43:50Z beach: TMA: Someone would have to verify that.  But it won't be me. :)
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2018-01-25T16:50:26Z TMA: beach: I think I have read someone verifying the speed of lisp's generic function dispatch and c++ vtable lookup dispatch, but that was a long time ago and moreover not entirerly the same thing. (so yes, someone would have to verify that)
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2018-01-25T16:51:11Z beach: If you read it a long time ago, then the Common Lisp way was using hash tables which is slower than my technique.
2018-01-25T16:51:30Z zazzerino: Does anyone know of a common lisp library similar to clojure's hugsql? (https://github.com/layerware/hugsql)
2018-01-25T16:52:30Z rumbler31: beach: where can I read about your technique
2018-01-25T16:53:17Z beach: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2018-01-25T16:54:14Z rumbler31: ty
2018-01-25T16:54:21Z beach: ywlcm
2018-01-25T16:54:45Z beach: rumbler31: scymtym has some benchmarks showing that it is significantly faster than the PCL technique, which is used by SBCL among others.
2018-01-25T16:55:17Z rumbler31: sweet
2018-01-25T16:55:40Z Shinmera: scymtym: Speaking of SICL dispatch in SBCL, what are the roadblocks to getting that merged in?
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2018-01-25T16:56:02Z Shinmera: Or completed
2018-01-25T16:56:44Z iqubic: Does slime require internet access to work?
2018-01-25T16:56:53Z scymtym: Shinmera: plenty. i don't have time right now, but i can write down a list later
2018-01-25T16:56:59Z beach: Shinmera: The SICL technique as documented requires classes to have unique numbers (that change when the class is redefined).  SBCL doesn't have that.  So, as I recall, scymtym is using the address of the class metaobject instead.
2018-01-25T16:57:10Z rumbler31: iqubic: no but installing anything with quicklisp might, such as the slime-helper
2018-01-25T16:57:12Z beach: But that requires the class not to move as a result of a GC.
2018-01-25T16:57:23Z Shinmera: beach: Right
2018-01-25T16:57:44Z iqubic: rumbler31: That's what I figured.
2018-01-25T16:57:53Z beach: Shinmera: So, either you convince the SBCL maintainers to introduce class numbers, or you make them swear that classes will never move.   None of which is going to happen.
2018-01-25T16:58:24Z rumbler31: iqubic: or more esoterically, if for some reason you've brought your loopback interface down, you'll have silent errors that will confound you for a little while, so don't do that ;-)
2018-01-25T16:59:33Z scymtym: beach: it's more nuanced than that in both regards. as i said at time, the benchmarks are not ideal and it cannot be concluded that (my variation of) fastgf is significantly faster in all cases. secondly, the dispatch i implemented uses multiple kinds of decisions, based on lowtags, widetags, layout addresses, EQ-comparisons and EQL-comparisons
2018-01-25T16:59:58Z rumbler31: iirc the symptom is that there is no error when opening the socket, so swank starts fine, but nothing can connect, so slime connect fails.
2018-01-25T17:00:09Z beach: scymtym: Sure.  I just gave him the big picture.  I hope it was not completely wrong.
2018-01-25T17:00:12Z iqubic: What does loopback mean?
2018-01-25T17:00:12Z iqubic: IDK what that even is.
2018-01-25T17:00:28Z iqubic: Is there a better way to do this: (apply #'+ (number-sequence 1 100))?
2018-01-25T17:00:51Z rumbler31: ifconfig lo0
2018-01-25T17:01:04Z iqubic: I feel like I have to use apply to pass a list into +.
2018-01-25T17:01:28Z loli: well you could use reduce as well
2018-01-25T17:01:34Z iqubic: that seems like such a common design thing.
2018-01-25T17:02:10Z iqubic: loli: My main issue is wanting to pass a list to a function that only takes &rest params.
2018-01-25T17:02:17Z iqubic: Is there a macro for that?
2018-01-25T17:02:24Z Bike: nope, that's what apply is for
2018-01-25T17:02:26Z Shinmera: clhs apply
2018-01-25T17:02:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2018-01-25T17:03:01Z scymtym: beach: it wasn't, of course. and i'm not denying that fastgf is or can be faster than PCL. in fact i believe that is the case. i'm just saying that the benchmarks i did so far are not sufficient evidence for that conclusion
2018-01-25T17:03:26Z beach: scymtym: Fair enough.  I'll quit saying that. :)
2018-01-25T17:03:27Z Bike: (apply #'+ (number-sequence 1 100)) can be better done as (/ (+ (* 100 100) 100) 2), natch
2018-01-25T17:04:06Z shrdlu68: iqubic: #'reduce
2018-01-25T17:04:50Z scymtym: beach: ok
2018-01-25T17:05:37Z beach: scymtym: Do you share my sentiment that it would be hard to convince the SBCL maintainers to do what it takes to support a good version of my dispatch technique?
2018-01-25T17:06:23Z iqubic: shrdlu68: I know how reduce works.
2018-01-25T17:07:08Z Bike: reduce works if the function is associative and such, but in general, if you have a list you want to pass to a function as arguments, that is what apply does
2018-01-25T17:07:33Z iqubic: Well, I have class now. I have to go. Bye all.
2018-01-25T17:07:50Z Bike: good-bye
2018-01-25T17:08:13Z iqubic: Sorry I couldn't stay for long.
2018-01-25T17:08:26Z iqubic: I didn't track the time closely.
2018-01-25T17:08:31Z iqubic: LOL
2018-01-25T17:11:06Z scymtym: beach: since i am an SBCL maintainer, i could, in theory, undertake that myself and i don't think anybody would object. that said, this would probably be the biggest and most invasive change since i started working on SBCL and i often had trouble getting much smaller things to a point where i could merge them
2018-01-25T17:11:38Z beach: Yes, I see.  Makes sense.
2018-01-25T17:11:58Z Bike: i was under the impression that sbcl classes had "layouts" that can be used similarly for obsolete instances. could you see how it goes just using eq comparisons of those instead of small integers?
2018-01-25T17:12:14Z scymtym: beach: maybe when some other implementation completely embarrasses SBCL in terms of generic dispatch performance, stassats could become interested
2018-01-25T17:12:27Z beach: scymtym: Heh, yes, maybe so.
2018-01-25T17:12:56Z scymtym: Bike: EQ-comparisons do not allow for unrolled binary search, though
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2018-01-25T17:13:19Z Bike: ...right.
2018-01-25T17:13:46Z Bike: don't suppose you could just throw an integer into those
2018-01-25T17:14:07Z scymtym: well, what i do is using layout addresses, saving a memory read
2018-01-25T17:14:16Z scymtym: but only works when layouts are immobile
2018-01-25T17:16:06Z scymtym: i think, layouts already have a CLOS hash or similar in them. so that could be used. but doing any sort of range optimization would be out of the question
2018-01-25T17:16:30Z scymtym goes back to dayjob for real
2018-01-25T17:17:41Z Bike: i'm not sure how important the range part is compared to the rest, really.
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2018-01-25T17:52:49Z ebzzry_: Is there a structure that holds that exported symbols of a package?
2018-01-25T17:53:45Z Xach: ebzzry_: probably. but not exposed by the standard.
2018-01-25T17:54:00Z ebzzry_: Xach: ok
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2018-01-25T17:57:01Z Bike: you can iterate over them though.
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2018-01-25T18:39:14Z rumbler31: warweasle: did you get that serial bridge up and running?
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2018-01-25T18:46:10Z warweasle: rumbler31: They didn't want to take time to make it. Programmer's will just have to walk to the lab.
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2018-01-25T18:47:35Z rumbler31: darn
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2018-01-25T19:09:48Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-25T20:25:14Z Xach: ok
2018-01-25T20:25:32Z Xach: Does anyone here have a project in quicklisp and want to monitor its build failures through RSS?
2018-01-25T20:26:23Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-01-25T20:29:51Z dlowe: yes
2018-01-25T20:30:41Z jasom: Is it possible to portably store a hash-table literal in a fasl?
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2018-01-25T20:31:48Z Xach: dlowe: http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/author/dlowe-net.rss
2018-01-25T20:31:55Z shka_: jasom: what is hashtable literal?
2018-01-25T20:32:16Z jasom: shka_: trivially #.(make-hash-table)
2018-01-25T20:32:26Z jasom: shka_: obviously I want to do something slightly more complicated
2018-01-25T20:32:33Z shka_: ok
2018-01-25T20:32:33Z pjb: jasom: AFAIK, no problem.
2018-01-25T20:32:39Z shka_: well i don't know
2018-01-25T20:32:50Z dlowe: Xach: woo. Thanks.
2018-01-25T20:32:59Z jasom: clhs 3.2.4.4
2018-01-25T20:32:59Z specbot: Additional Constraints on Externalizable Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdd.htm
2018-01-25T20:33:33Z pjb: jasom: well, only abcl can't do it.
2018-01-25T20:33:59Z jasom: ah 3.2.4.2.2 talks about similarity of hash-tables
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2018-01-25T20:34:52Z jasom: but I don't see anywhere in 3.2 a list of object types that must be externalizable
2018-01-25T20:34:55Z pjb: jasom: I guess you could write a make-load-form for hash-table. Also, the keys and values would have to be externalizable.
2018-01-25T20:35:08Z jasom: which makes no sense because obviously CONS and symbol must be
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2018-01-25T20:35:43Z pjb: jasom: only it's forbidden by 11.1.2.1.2 point 19…
2018-01-25T20:37:08Z jasom: pjb: well if ABCL allows defining make-load-form and all other implementations don't need make-load-form, I have a workable solution
2018-01-25T20:37:59Z megachombas: (setf a '(:@))     (format t "% print ~a" a)          this return "@"
2018-01-25T20:38:02Z megachombas: me no understand
2018-01-25T20:38:24Z jasom: megachombas: ~a "pretty-prints" it's values, and so it omits the leading :
2018-01-25T20:38:41Z megachombas: how to actually print EVERYTHING?
2018-01-25T20:38:49Z jasom: megachombas: use ~s if you want to show the representation of it
2018-01-25T20:39:06Z pjb: jasom: consider using load-time-value instead of #.
2018-01-25T20:39:29Z jasom: pjb: of course, I was just showing a simple example to shka_
2018-01-25T20:39:53Z pjb: megachombas: clisp only evaluates one form on a read line.
2018-01-25T20:40:37Z pjb: megachombas: well, I'm wrong, it evaluates each form in turn.
2018-01-25T20:40:54Z pjb: (setf a '(:@)) doesn't print anything and returns (:@)
2018-01-25T20:40:58Z jasom understood megachombas's complaint to be that it printed "% print @"
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2018-01-25T20:41:14Z pjb: (format t "% print ~a" a) prints % print (@) and returns NIL
2018-01-25T20:42:03Z jasom: pjb: actually in this case load-time-value is the exact opposite of what I want.  I want it to be evaluated at compile time, not at run-time.
2018-01-25T20:42:11Z pjb: megachombas: also, you may want to finish output with a newline, and to flush the buffer with a call to (finish-output).
2018-01-25T20:42:34Z pjb: jasom: then you need to be able to make-load-form if it's not present.
2018-01-25T20:43:22Z pjb: Notice that hash-tables have attributes that are not always visible, such as :size, :rehash-threashold, etc.
2018-01-25T20:43:47Z megachombas: actually i want to know what is passed as param in a fuction, to be able to copy this parameter and load that fuction by hand
2018-01-25T20:43:55Z megachombas: but seems something's fked up
2018-01-25T20:44:07Z Xach: megachombas: trace is quite handy for that.
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2018-01-25T20:44:21Z pjb: megachombas: you can use print to debug.
2018-01-25T20:44:28Z megachombas: thats what i did
2018-01-25T20:44:33Z pjb: (defun foo (a b c) (print (list 'foo a b c)) …)
2018-01-25T20:44:42Z megachombas: oh
2018-01-25T20:44:45Z megachombas: print?
2018-01-25T20:44:48Z megachombas: let me test with print
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2018-01-25T20:45:24Z pjb: megachombas: the advantage of print is that it returns its first argument so you can use it in expressions: (if (print (= (print a) (print b))) (print 'same))
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2018-01-25T20:46:01Z pjb: The inconvenient is that it only prints the argument, so if you have a lot of them it may be confusing.
2018-01-25T20:46:14Z pjb: You can write your own debugging printing macro to add labels.
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2018-01-25T20:47:14Z pjb: I have a macro (com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:show expression) that prints expression = value and returns value so it can be used as print, but its output is clearer.
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2018-01-25T20:50:50Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/b5g7ai says me variable list has no value
2018-01-25T20:51:51Z pjb: megachombas: read again, and debug.
2018-01-25T20:52:33Z megachombas: ive applied (defun foo (a b c) (print (list 'foo a b c)) …) to my example
2018-01-25T20:52:41Z pjb: No, you haven't.
2018-01-25T20:53:09Z megachombas: oh some parenthesis missing
2018-01-25T20:53:12Z megachombas: like always
2018-01-25T20:53:45Z pjb: megachombas: in C, would you write: print(list a,b,c) or print(list(a,b,c))?   Would you forget the inner set of parentheses?
2018-01-25T20:53:50Z pjb: It's the same in lisp!
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2018-01-25T20:58:04Z megachombas: something must be wrong in my reasoning
2018-01-25T20:58:05Z megachombas: one sec
2018-01-25T20:59:27Z pjb: megachombas: Call the function list with as arguments 'foo a b and c is written  ( =call  list 'foo a b c )=end of arguments.
2018-01-25T20:59:36Z pjb: (list 'foo a b c)
2018-01-25T20:59:56Z pjb: call print with as arguments (list 'foo a b c) is written (print (list 'foo a b c)) not (print list 'foo a b c)!
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2018-01-25T21:02:22Z pjb: clisp contains a good tutorial: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/default/tree/doc/LISP-tutorial.txt
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2018-01-25T21:06:02Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/bh6tic
2018-01-25T21:06:18Z megachombas: i guess im not captuing the exact value of asm with the print
2018-01-25T21:06:55Z jasom: megachombas: you need to set *print-circle* to t
2018-01-25T21:08:40Z jasom: Consider the output of this form with *print-circle* set to t and nil: (let ((x (gensym))) (list x x))
2018-01-25T21:09:51Z megachombas: dont understand that print circle
2018-01-25T21:10:18Z jasom: (eq #:foo #:foo) ;=> nil
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2018-01-25T21:10:47Z jasom: (eq #1=#:foo #1#) ;=> T
2018-01-25T21:13:33Z jasom: whatever you are interacting with is generating output that includes uninterned symbols.  These are confusing if you are new to lisp, so just enable *print-circle* for now if you want to be able to paste the output and have it read in correctly.
2018-01-25T21:13:57Z megachombas: one sec
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2018-01-25T21:17:50Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/eomssv like this?
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2018-01-25T21:18:05Z jasom: megachombas: no
2018-01-25T21:18:12Z megachombas: god bless lisp
2018-01-25T21:18:34Z jasom: megachombas: just set it to true at the toplevel before you run whatever it is that prints stuff out.
2018-01-25T21:18:51Z TMA: megachombas: set *print-circle* to t === (setf *print-circle* t)
2018-01-25T21:19:10Z megachombas: oh, print circle is a variable?
2018-01-25T21:19:22Z jasom: yes *print-circle* is a variable
2018-01-25T21:19:33Z jasom: it is false (nil) by default.
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2018-01-25T21:20:48Z jasom: ah, I didn't see you had a print
2018-01-25T21:21:02Z jasom: you want (let ((*print-circle* t)) (list 'load-machine vm asm)))
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2018-01-25T21:21:15Z jasom: alksjfoidsamfiadm
2018-01-25T21:21:26Z jasom: you want (let ((*print-circle* t)) (print (list 'load-machine vm asm))))
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2018-01-25T21:23:59Z TMA: megachombas: the difference is that in the (let ((*print-circle* t)) (print (list 'load-machine vm asm)))) version you do not set the variable permanently, you change the value just for the print inside
2018-01-25T21:24:45Z megachombas: well
2018-01-25T21:24:53Z megachombas: with print circle it works
2018-01-25T21:24:58Z megachombas: but ugly as fak
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2018-01-25T21:26:19Z jasom: megachombas: this is part of why it's off by default...
2018-01-25T21:27:03Z megachombas: but
2018-01-25T21:27:15Z megachombas: i still dont get it
2018-01-25T21:27:22Z megachombas: let me show the compare
2018-01-25T21:27:25Z jasom: megachombas: do you know any non-lisp programming languages?
2018-01-25T21:27:54Z megachombas: c, c++, java, python
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2018-01-25T21:28:17Z jasom: megachombas: okay, in C, will the following expressin be true or false: "foo" == "foo"
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2018-01-25T21:28:39Z megachombas: true
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2018-01-25T21:29:05Z jasom: megachombas: not necessarily; the compiler could in theory generate two different string literals and then it would be false because they would have different addresses
2018-01-25T21:29:29Z TMA: megachombas: not necessarily. the standard permits it to be true, but does not mandate it
2018-01-25T21:29:30Z jasom: however this will always be false, right?: "foo" == strcpy("foo")
2018-01-25T21:30:20Z megachombas: hum
2018-01-25T21:30:42Z megachombas: it should be true, you copy "foo", so the strcpy is "foo" aint it?
2018-01-25T21:31:07Z jasom: megachombas: nope in C == just compares the addresses that the string is stored at
2018-01-25T21:31:23Z jasom: and a copy of the string will have a different address than the original string
2018-01-25T21:31:24Z megachombas: ah true
2018-01-25T21:31:28Z megachombas: i have to do string compare
2018-01-25T21:31:28Z Shinmera: To compare contents you need strcmp
2018-01-25T21:31:33Z megachombas: y y my bad
2018-01-25T21:32:20Z jasom: right, when you read this in lisp, it will always generate an identical symbol named "FOO" in whatever the current package is.  No matter how many times you read it, only one symbol will be created: 'foo
2018-01-25T21:32:34Z jasom: same is true for keywords like :foo
2018-01-25T21:33:17Z jasom: however, if you put #:foo it creates a new symbol with no package whatsoever.  Since there is no package when you get another #:foo it creates another symbol with the same name, so you have two different symbols
2018-01-25T21:33:24Z jasom: hence (eq :foo :foo) => T
2018-01-25T21:33:33Z jasom: (eq #:foo #:foo) => nil
2018-01-25T21:34:32Z jasom: now the reader has a specail tool that lets you drop objects that have already been read into the same place.  You mark an object you want to include later With #N= (where N is a number) and then anywher thereafter you can put #N# and it drops the identical object there
2018-01-25T21:34:35Z megachombas: hum
2018-01-25T21:34:39Z megachombas: i plus or less get it
2018-01-25T21:34:55Z jasom: so (eq #1=#:foo #1#) => T
2018-01-25T21:35:02Z jasom: because you now have the same identical symbol
2018-01-25T21:35:59Z Xach: Shinmera: I restructured things a little for the rss feeds. There's now http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/author/Shinmera.rss as well as http://report.quicklisp.org/feeds/project/chirp.rss (for example)
2018-01-25T21:36:20Z Xach: they include some of the log (the part immediately before and after the start of the backtrace)
2018-01-25T21:36:29Z Shinmera: Xach: Seems sensible, thanks for the update.
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2018-01-25T21:40:15Z Xach will add some finishing touches and write up the failfeeds 
2018-01-25T21:42:07Z megachombas: what i dont get
2018-01-25T21:42:11Z megachombas: is that my function
2018-01-25T21:42:33Z megachombas: when it evaluates every element of the list to perform actions on it
2018-01-25T21:42:59Z megachombas: doesnt detect the ## and the random numbers that *print circle* adds
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2018-01-25T21:43:34Z Xach: megachombas: the important distinction between internal and external representation is at play here
2018-01-25T21:43:44Z Xach: understanding it well helps a lot
2018-01-25T21:44:14Z megachombas: because my objective is eliminate the function that generate that list, and directly read that list from a file
2018-01-25T21:44:32Z megachombas: but with all the ## and numbers added, it doesnt loook great
2018-01-25T21:48:18Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/wm9s09
2018-01-25T21:49:17Z TMA: megachombas: do the labels need to be uninterned symbols?
2018-01-25T21:49:40Z megachombas: what do you mean?
2018-01-25T21:51:17Z TMA: megachombas: the #:|finTest7794| for example
2018-01-25T21:51:34Z megachombas: well, pretty sure that isnt what i was expecting
2018-01-25T21:52:11Z megachombas: its technically (@ labelname)
2018-01-25T21:52:20Z megachombas: dunno wy lisp added that too
2018-01-25T21:52:28Z megachombas: im getting so mad with lisp
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2018-01-25T21:55:29Z Shinmera: Well you're probably getting mad because you jumped right into the icey water and are now confused why it's so cold, instead of easing yourself in slowly.
2018-01-25T21:55:44Z megachombas: all looks so difficult
2018-01-25T21:56:09Z megachombas: i mean, the asm coded that is passed to my function is a lisp list
2018-01-25T21:56:14Z Shinmera: Everything is difficult if you try to accomplish a non-trivial task in an unfamiliar environment.
2018-01-25T21:56:25Z megachombas: still dont get why when i make this list by hand and pass it it fks up
2018-01-25T21:57:02Z megachombas: 'Everything is difficult if you try to accomplish a non-trivial task in an unfamiliar environment.' definition of the fresh university system
2018-01-25T21:57:16Z megachombas: french*
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2018-01-25T21:59:11Z rumbler31: first culprit to making things by hand in lisp is missing parens
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2018-01-25T21:59:46Z megachombas: ive got the emacs, so parentesis aint a problem anymore
2018-01-25T21:59:54Z megachombas: this is really my last fix that i need to do
2018-01-25T22:00:14Z megachombas: be able to load that asm code as lisp list without those randoms "#" added
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2018-01-25T22:01:21Z TMA: megachombas: if you are writing the (@ label-name) by hand, just do not use #:
2018-01-25T22:02:03Z megachombas: yep, but what about the #4=  for example
2018-01-25T22:02:06Z megachombas: if i remove that
2018-01-25T22:02:11Z megachombas: will it still be the same
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2018-01-25T22:05:57Z TMA: if you do that, the |finTest7794| will be a symbol in the current package, which means (as jasom has written here already (22:32 < jasom> right, when... and following messages)) that you will probably not need the #4= (as every |finTest7794| will be read equal to other |finTest7794|) [[I am simplifying greatly, you could make it so that it will no longer true, but it would require additional effort to change it]]]
2018-01-25T22:06:09Z pjb: megachombas: you can put (setf *print-circle* t) in your ~/.clisprc.lisp file.
2018-01-25T22:06:47Z TMA: megachombas: how do you construct the (@ label-name) ?
2018-01-25T22:07:24Z pjb: jasom: it should be: "foo"==strcpy(malloc(4),"foo")
2018-01-25T22:08:39Z TMA: jasom: or strdup("foo") iirc
2018-01-25T22:08:52Z megachombas: so if i remove them it will work
2018-01-25T22:09:01Z megachombas: let me remove and remplace to see
2018-01-25T22:09:24Z pjb: megachombas: There is no ## or #= added!
2018-01-25T22:09:36Z megachombas: how not
2018-01-25T22:09:37Z pjb: megachombas: you have to distinguish the textual representation from the actual data structures.
2018-01-25T22:09:48Z megachombas: well
2018-01-25T22:09:48Z pjb: megachombas: for example, there are absolutely no parentheses in lisp!
2018-01-25T22:09:55Z megachombas: then the right question is
2018-01-25T22:09:57Z pjb: (first '(a b c)) #| --> a |#   see, no parenthesis.
2018-01-25T22:10:14Z pjb: Similarly, there's no #= or ## in the data.  Only in the representation.
2018-01-25T22:10:29Z megachombas: how to transform text in parentesis form into that data structure
2018-01-25T22:10:34Z pjb: ## and #= let us represent data that contains multiple references to the same objects.
2018-01-25T22:10:45Z pjb: megachombas: this is done usually by READ.
2018-01-25T22:10:54Z megachombas: oh
2018-01-25T22:10:57Z megachombas: so if i use READ
2018-01-25T22:11:01Z megachombas: that text
2018-01-25T22:11:10Z megachombas: it transform it into the right structure right?
2018-01-25T22:11:28Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-25T22:11:38Z rumbler31: imagine replacing every instance of #1# with (LOC -1 0)
2018-01-25T22:11:43Z pjb: And there are no parentheses in that structure, only cons cells and atoms.
2018-01-25T22:11:44Z rumbler31: et cetera
2018-01-25T22:11:55Z megachombas: lllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet me test that out
2018-01-25T22:12:36Z megachombas: so if       i so (read ((move r0 r1)(move r2 r3))) that will transform it into the correct list
2018-01-25T22:12:58Z pjb: megachombas: now, the thing is that symbols are usually interned.  Which means that when the same symbol name is read twice, the same and unique symbol is obtained.  So there's no need for ## and #= when you read sexps containing multiple occurences of the same symbol: (a a a) is a list with 3 cons cells, each pointing from their car to the same symbol named "A".
2018-01-25T22:13:14Z pjb: (read-from-string "((move r0 r1)(move r2 r3))") #| --> ((move r0 r1) (move r2 r3)) ; 26 |#
2018-01-25T22:13:30Z pjb: Or (read) RET  and then type in: ((move r0 r1)(move r2 r3)) RET
2018-01-25T22:14:32Z TMA: megachombas: could you show me the piece od code that constructs the (@ #:|finTest7794|)? is it a code you have written?
2018-01-25T22:14:41Z pjb: Notice that the REPL uses PRINT to do the inverse transform, from lisp data structure to textual representation, so when you read ((move r0 r1)(move r2 r3)) at the repl, it prints it, and you get back ((MOVE R0 R1) (MOVE R2 R3)) ; notice the space inserted in the normalized representation!  And the uppercase, if you don't have (setf *print-case* :downcase).
2018-01-25T22:14:48Z megachombas: not that i have written myself, but i have the soruce
2018-01-25T22:14:49Z megachombas: a sec
2018-01-25T22:15:22Z pjb: #: prevents interning the symbol, so #= ## are needed if you have several occurences of a uninterned symbol in the sexp.
2018-01-25T22:15:45Z megachombas: TMA: https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm/blob/master/compilateur/cas/conditions.lisp
2018-01-25T22:16:05Z pjb: megachombas: you can use gentemp instead of gensym to generate interned temporary symbols so you don't have this problem with the textual representation.
2018-01-25T22:16:53Z megachombas: i dont use gensym
2018-01-25T22:17:10Z megachombas: actually, i want to get ride of the compiler and only use the VM
2018-01-25T22:17:26Z megachombas: but for that, i need ASM code to put into my VM
2018-01-25T22:17:43Z megachombas: going to try the read-from-string see how it goes
2018-01-25T22:17:53Z pjb: https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm/blob/master/compilateur/cas/conditions.lisp
2018-01-25T22:18:01Z pjb: in that function, there are two gensym!
2018-01-25T22:18:27Z megachombas: yes, but i dont use them
2018-01-25T22:18:34Z megachombas: thats compiler part
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2018-01-25T22:20:41Z pjb: then write your own assembler by hand!
2018-01-25T22:20:50Z pjb: Then you won't have gensyms in it!
2018-01-25T22:21:15Z megachombas: i will only present VM tomorrow, as i cant even explain everything that it does, as for example i dont understant what (MOVE (LOC -1 0) (:R0)
2018-01-25T22:21:21Z megachombas: but the gensym isnt a problem
2018-01-25T22:21:25Z whoman: ive always felt that gensym is the wrong direction ..
2018-01-25T22:21:27Z megachombas: as it just generate a symbol
2018-01-25T22:21:36Z megachombas: i will just remplace by symbols written by hand
2018-01-25T22:21:46Z TMA: megachombas: the compiler uses gensym. therefore the compiler result contains the result of the gensym evaluation
2018-01-25T22:22:42Z megachombas: oh, isnt just plaintext?
2018-01-25T22:22:53Z TMA: megachombas: if the gensym was replaced by gentemp there, the compiler result will have no #: when printed and you would have no problem with it
2018-01-25T22:23:34Z pjb: megachombas: no, in lisp we never use plaintext. Instead we use lisp objects, data structures, what we call SYMBOLIC EXPRESSIONS, sexps.
2018-01-25T22:24:04Z megachombas: if i remplace (@ #:|finTest7794|) by (@ hello) actually it wont work?
2018-01-25T22:24:27Z TMA: megachombas: it might work.
2018-01-25T22:24:35Z pjb: megachombas: when you use plaintext, you get code injection problems, and you need tons of PhD theses to find complex solutions and round abouts to avoid them. ANd you get a whole cottage industry to develop tools to test and avoid them.
2018-01-25T22:24:55Z pjb: megachombas: instead, you can use 60 years old technology called lisp, which uses data structures, and therefore the problem doesn't exist in the first place.
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2018-01-25T22:25:46Z megachombas: going to give a try
2018-01-25T22:26:02Z megachombas: nothing to lose anymore right now, im feeling the 1/20 coming tomorrow
2018-01-25T22:26:08Z pjb: megachombas: when you use a language like C, you get buffer overflow, memory leaks etc, and you need tons of PhD theses about program verifications, sophisticated debugging tools such valgrind, and a whole cottage industry of tools and security audits to detect those problems and avoid them.
2018-01-25T22:26:41Z pjb: megachombas: instead, you can use 60 years old technology called lisp, which uses a garbage collector and run-time cheks, and therefore the problem doesn't exist in the first place.
2018-01-25T22:26:53Z pjb: I could go on…
2018-01-25T22:27:47Z megachombas: im pretty sure lisp is strong
2018-01-25T22:27:55Z pjb: No, it's weak.  But it's smart.
2018-01-25T22:27:59Z nirved: (defun |()| () ())
2018-01-25T22:28:15Z pjb: megachombas: just to say, that it's worth learning it, to avoid all the dumb mistake the industry keeps doing over and over.
2018-01-25T22:29:32Z pjb: (defun |()| (\(\)) (if (null |()|) () (|()| (cdr |()|))))    (|()| '(\(\) |()| (\(\)) |()|)) #| --> nil |#
2018-01-25T22:29:35Z nirved: todays computer programs are so bloated, that the equivalent lisp machine running on the same hardware would be faster
2018-01-25T22:30:32Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/nik83k correct syntax?
2018-01-25T22:31:00Z aeth: nirved: you mean LispOS, right?
2018-01-25T22:31:15Z aeth: Or do you mean the equivalent lispm architecture on the same process node?
2018-01-25T22:31:40Z megachombas: nvm, it needs double quotes
2018-01-25T22:31:48Z Shinmera: nirved: Weak! Try (defun ﴾﴿()()) and (defun ​()())
2018-01-25T22:32:10Z rumbler31: can't you just setf without read-from-string?
2018-01-25T22:32:14Z cgay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-01-25T22:32:17Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/2pftvy like this?
2018-01-25T22:33:10Z rumbler31: what happens when you execute that
2018-01-25T22:33:11Z rumbler31: you tell us
2018-01-25T22:33:33Z whoman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-01-25T22:34:16Z aeth: With Lisp you can get self-documenting function names, e.g. (defun |Hello, world!| () (format t "Hello, world!~%"))
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2018-01-25T22:35:27Z megachombas: IT WORKS
2018-01-25T22:35:28Z megachombas: YESSS
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2018-01-25T22:37:39Z Xach: cool
2018-01-25T22:39:20Z megachombas: now
2018-01-25T22:39:26Z megachombas: last but not least question
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2018-01-25T22:41:02Z dim: I'm still in awe each time I write restart-case in CL
2018-01-25T22:41:57Z Shinmera: restarts aren't the magic part, you can get them with exceptions too. The magic juice is handler-bind.
2018-01-25T22:42:29Z dim: as in e.g. https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/25152f605495fbd3e3bdae555f8ca142490a6d65 ;-)
2018-01-25T22:42:48Z dim: Shinmera: that's very true, so maybe I mean interactive 1-keystroke restart-case
2018-01-25T22:44:23Z pjb: megachombas: perhaps it's too late for you, and you should go to sleep?  WHen you have a function name read-from-STRING, why do you pass it a list?
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2018-01-25T22:44:52Z megachombas: it worked when i did https://codepaste.net/2pftvy
2018-01-25T22:44:53Z pjb: megachombas: also we've explained that reading operations consist into transforming a TEXTUAL representation into lisp data.
2018-01-25T22:44:58Z rumbler31: I think he was planning on passing it the original form with the #1= reader macros
2018-01-25T22:45:11Z pjb: megachombas: so both on the count of READ and of -FROM-STRING you should give it a STRING, and not a list!
2018-01-25T22:45:31Z megachombas: thats what i did, ive put the list into "" ""
2018-01-25T22:45:54Z rumbler31: you could just say (setf test3 '(form...)
2018-01-25T22:45:55Z pjb: Yes, in the second paste.
2018-01-25T22:46:06Z megachombas: yes yes, i missed the syntax
2018-01-25T22:46:12Z megachombas: i have a verrly last question for you pjb
2018-01-25T22:46:13Z pjb: megachombas: but I'm trying to activate processes in your brains so you don't have to try twice before finding the right solution!
2018-01-25T22:46:14Z whoman: any projects called CLoset ?
2018-01-25T22:46:15Z megachombas: hold on please
2018-01-25T22:46:38Z pjb: whoman: rings a bell.
2018-01-25T22:49:12Z megachombas: pjb: it has been around 6 damn hours im trying to figure out what does the (move (loc -1 0) :R0)
2018-01-25T22:49:14Z megachombas: https://codepaste.net/e8ej4w
2018-01-25T22:49:32Z pjb: You mean, the function move?
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2018-01-25T22:49:46Z megachombas: the loc is generated by the compiler here : https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm/blob/master/compilateur/cas/fonctions.lisp
2018-01-25T22:49:51Z megachombas: not the function move
2018-01-25T22:49:57Z pjb: since (loc -1 0) is not a number, it's the second case that's appliede.
2018-01-25T22:50:12Z megachombas: i need to know why it moves (loc -1 0 )
2018-01-25T22:50:19Z megachombas: into r0
2018-01-25T22:50:57Z pjb: so it computes the value of (loc -1 0) with (get-src vm src).
2018-01-25T22:51:24Z pjb: which calls (get-loc-src vm expr)
2018-01-25T22:51:24Z megachombas: ye, so i go into get-src of vm (loc -1 0 )
2018-01-25T22:51:26Z megachombas: and then
2018-01-25T22:52:00Z pjb: (if (eql (caddr expr) ()) (setf (caddr expr) 0)) cannot work in general.
2018-01-25T22:52:50Z pjb: with a negative value, it reads the memory relatively to newFP.
2018-01-25T22:53:06Z pjb: so basically, it refers a local variable.
2018-01-25T22:53:27Z megachombas: oh GOD BLESS, LOC stands for LOCAL VARIABLE??
2018-01-25T22:53:37Z pjb: No, for location, I would say.
2018-01-25T22:53:49Z megachombas: oh, so its the location of local variables?
2018-01-25T22:53:55Z rumbler31: doesn't your assembly have documentation?
2018-01-25T22:53:56Z pjb: oh, no, you're right, it's for local variables and parameters.
2018-01-25T22:54:15Z megachombas: but i dont understand what is the weird maths he does with FP
2018-01-25T22:54:21Z pjb: When it's positive, it skips the return address and stack frame, to get at the parameters.
2018-01-25T22:54:29Z pjb: You have to know how the functions are called?
2018-01-25T22:54:50Z pjb: How the parameters are passed, and what is pushed on the stack in addition to them and the return PC.
2018-01-25T22:54:56Z megachombas: well tomorow i basicly have to explain how my code works
2018-01-25T22:55:16Z pjb: Usually, there's a FP link saved on the stack.  You seem to have two more slots since it adds 4.
2018-01-25T22:55:39Z pjb: This is probably described in the documentation/specification of the VM and/or the compiler.
2018-01-25T22:56:20Z megachombas: nothing about loc on the documentation
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2018-01-25T22:56:31Z megachombas: so , let me see if i got it
2018-01-25T22:56:33Z megachombas: if its loc
2018-01-25T22:56:38Z megachombas: its going to move
2018-01-25T22:56:42Z fouric: (jasom: lol what keyboard layout are you using)
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2018-01-25T22:57:10Z megachombas: the value of a local variable to the stack?
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2018-01-25T22:58:40Z pjb: No, to the register R0
2018-01-25T22:59:11Z megachombas: oh oh
2018-01-25T22:59:13Z pjb: (move (loc -1 0) :r0) means copy the local variable number 1 to the register 0.
2018-01-25T22:59:42Z megachombas: and the local variable number one, where is it located in the memory
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2018-01-25T23:00:05Z pjb: it's computed in get-loc-src
2018-01-25T23:00:22Z pjb: and notice the same computation is done also in get-loc-dst, so it's redundant code!
2018-01-25T23:00:24Z pjb: very bad…
2018-01-25T23:00:53Z megachombas: let me see get-loc-src again
2018-01-25T23:00:57Z pjb: I tought you wrote this code!?!
2018-01-25T23:01:08Z pjb: You know that this channel is logged, right?
2018-01-25T23:01:19Z aeth: in at least 3 places
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2018-01-25T23:01:35Z Shinmera: and so many places that aren't automatically public..
2018-01-25T23:01:44Z pjb: Indexed by google as soon as you type a new message (or close)!
2018-01-25T23:02:21Z megachombas: my idea was to rewrite the functions tomorrow morning
2018-01-25T23:02:26Z megachombas: but hard to rewrite when i dont know what they do
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2018-01-25T23:03:32Z pjb: Indeed, you need to read and understand them.
2018-01-25T23:03:40Z megachombas: yes, i understand all of them
2018-01-25T23:03:43Z megachombas: except the loc
2018-01-25T23:04:16Z megachombas: as you can see, i commented everything else
2018-01-25T23:04:29Z pjb: yes.
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2018-01-25T23:04:40Z pjb: My question, is why you have code that you didn't write and don't understand?
2018-01-25T23:04:49Z pjb: It would be much easier to write it yourself from scratch!
2018-01-25T23:04:55Z pjb: At least you'd know what it does…
2018-01-25T23:05:38Z aeth: It doesn't look like particularly well-written Lisp in the first place. Unless the style got messed up in the cut and paste.
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2018-01-25T23:06:09Z aeth: It violates every style guide I know of, which makes it harder to read that it should be.
2018-01-25T23:06:16Z pjb: It's possible that it wasn't in CL originally.
2018-01-25T23:06:26Z aeth: Yes, it looks like it could be archaic Lisp
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2018-01-25T23:08:54Z Shinmera: I've seen enough mind boggingly awful template code from university lectures that I'm entirely ready to believe someone wrote this who just doesn't know lisp either.
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2018-01-25T23:09:22Z Shinmera: (not from my own university, but universities people I know have attended)
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2018-01-25T23:09:41Z megachombas: tried to wrote my own. but at arrrived at a point where i didnt understand lisp at all. found this one that was functional, so i tried to understand it to do mine
2018-01-25T23:09:58Z pjb: Not a very good way to proceed…
2018-01-25T23:10:06Z megachombas: but i arrived at a point where im still trying to understand this one, and bassicly doing small modifications
2018-01-25T23:10:13Z pjb: Don't you have a specification document for the VM?
2018-01-25T23:10:13Z megachombas: so yes, this is pure copy pasta
2018-01-25T23:10:26Z megachombas: for that vm, or of what we suposed to do?
2018-01-25T23:10:33Z aeth: megachombas: If you need to pick up functional Lisp-style programming in a short amount of time, work through The Little Schemer (formerly The Little Lisper). It's in Scheme, but most of the lessons would carry over imo.
2018-01-25T23:10:34Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-25T23:10:48Z rumbler31: his timeline is "tomorrow"
2018-01-25T23:11:12Z megachombas: ye, my timeline is tomorrow so im kinda short
2018-01-25T23:11:33Z aeth: well the extreme tl;dr is that you should base it around cond
2018-01-25T23:11:42Z pjb: Well, usually timelines are given three or two months in advance, so…
2018-01-25T23:12:02Z megachombas: 2 months in advance
2018-01-25T23:12:10Z aeth: Do not put assignments off to the last minute. I tried doing this in college, and it ruined my health, possibly permanently.
2018-01-25T23:12:11Z megachombas: with 7 final examins in the middle
2018-01-25T23:12:40Z aeth: There's only so much your body can handle with work in a short period of time
2018-01-25T23:12:42Z |3b| just put things off until past the last minute, much better for health (bad for grades though)
2018-01-25T23:13:09Z aeth: |3b|: If there are grace periods, and you're good enough to consistently be able to get an A even with the -10% penalty or whatever, it can still work
2018-01-25T23:13:14Z aeth: You'll just get a low A instead of a high A
2018-01-25T23:13:19Z aeth: More stressful, though
2018-01-25T23:13:29Z Shinmera: I try to do things as early as possible, but then I just get stressed out to all hell towards the end anyway.
2018-01-25T23:13:38Z aeth: (You'd just need the late penalty to average to -10% if you still want an A)
2018-01-25T23:14:02Z megachombas: found this http://www.lirmm.fr/~lafourcade/ML-enseign/Compilation/compil-GenCode.HTML
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2018-01-25T23:15:38Z aeth: megachombas: My recommendation to you would be to pick up processing things with cond. It's fast enough that you could pick it up quickly enough. A lot of functional-style Scheme and Lisp uses that basic style. (There's no time for fancier techniques.)
2018-01-25T23:16:02Z megachombas: example of cond?
2018-01-25T23:16:15Z pjb: megachombas: this explains very well everything. You even have stack frame diagrams!
2018-01-25T23:16:36Z megachombas: yes, just i discovered those instructions today ,and he NEVER EVER give it to us
2018-01-25T23:16:51Z megachombas: retarded teacher, i dont want to be rude, but i tried my best with him
2018-01-25T23:17:10Z aeth: megachombas: Well, first, does your Lisp have tail recursion?
2018-01-25T23:17:21Z aeth: And if it doesn't, do you think you'd blow the stack?
2018-01-25T23:17:30Z pjb: aeth: this is not the problem, there's LOOP!
2018-01-25T23:17:56Z aeth: pjb: loop probably takes at least a week to learn
2018-01-25T23:18:16Z pjb: not for a programmer with C, C++, Java and Python experience.
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2018-01-25T23:18:24Z aeth: ah, okay, I missed that part
2018-01-25T23:20:11Z aeth: megachombas: COND is basically an if/elseif/elseif/.../else block, except that it is a form that also returns values so you can use it just like a very elaborate ternary operator if you wanted
2018-01-25T23:20:21Z aeth: This is its documentation: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2018-01-25T23:20:23Z dim: (loop repeat 10 for a = 1 then b and b = 1 then (+ a b) collect a)
2018-01-25T23:20:31Z dim: I think that's my favorite loop
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2018-01-25T23:21:10Z aeth: megachombas: You should make sure you understand COND first, because you're probably going to need it in your program if is going to have any elaborate conditionals in it. It's simpler than fancier alternatives.
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2018-01-25T23:23:10Z aeth: Simple Lisp programs require understanding defun, let, if, and cond.
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2018-01-25T23:25:22Z megachombas: hum
2018-01-25T23:25:34Z megachombas: so the get loc actually change the frame pointer
2018-01-25T23:25:50Z megachombas: but actually, it moves nothing in RO?
2018-01-25T23:26:14Z aeth: I would personally try to build something useful from the very simple basics of Lisp rather than trying to dissect an existing Lisp program. Build up from a toy program and gradually add the features you need.
2018-01-25T23:27:08Z aeth: It's very important, at least the way I program, to have a completely working program at every step of the way.
2018-01-25T23:27:15Z megachombas: if only i had time, i would do it
2018-01-25T23:27:20Z megachombas: but having the deadling tomorrow
2018-01-25T23:27:22Z megachombas: kinda hard
2018-01-25T23:27:45Z megachombas: but i will i deffintivly do some lisp after
2018-01-25T23:27:52Z megachombas: need to learn this more in deepth
2018-01-25T23:27:57Z aeth: If your teacher actually didn't explain things properly, then don't panic. If it's a large class, lots of people will probably do worse than you, and the grades might be adjusted upward.
2018-01-25T23:28:47Z pjb: megachombas: no it doesn't change the frame pointer. It uses it.
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2018-01-25T23:29:31Z pjb: megachombas: you're confused, because get-newFP is procedural instead of functional.
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2018-01-25T23:29:58Z pjb: megachombas: get-newFP uses a frame pointer index, named expr.
2018-01-25T23:30:12Z pjb: (get-newFP 0) returns the current frame pointer (get vm :FP).
2018-01-25T23:30:23Z pjb: (get-newFP 1) returns the frame pointer of the caller of the current function.
2018-01-25T23:30:31Z pjb: (get-newFP 2) returns the frame pointer of the caller of the caller of the current function.
2018-01-25T23:30:32Z pjb: etc.
2018-01-25T23:31:00Z pjb: This is why there's this loop and it updates the LOCAL variable newFP.  But it doesn't modify (get vm :FP) the actual frame pointer!
2018-01-25T23:31:06Z aeth: megachombas: Is the assignment to build a register machine like on the website you linked to?
2018-01-25T23:31:24Z pjb: It seems it is.
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2018-01-25T23:33:23Z aeth: Well, if there's more freedom of choice, then choose a stack machine. They're (afaik) simpler, especially in languages that have stacks (CL has two built-in stacks). That might not be an option, though.
2018-01-25T23:34:00Z pjb: aeth: the VM is specified, since there's a compiler targetting it!
2018-01-25T23:34:05Z aeth: ah, okay
2018-01-25T23:35:59Z megachombas: and it must be registery machine
2018-01-25T23:36:28Z megachombas: so, it saves the in the memory the position of the FP of the caller right?
2018-01-25T23:38:49Z pjb: No.
2018-01-25T23:39:20Z pjb: (get-loc-src vm expr) reads the memory containing the value of the local variable number EXPR in the current frame.
2018-01-25T23:39:59Z aeth: megachombas: Is the assignment something like this? Given the instructions, do the operations.
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2018-01-25T23:41:14Z megachombas: the asignment is 'make a VM  in lisp that use 4 registerys and a lisp compiler "
2018-01-25T23:41:31Z megachombas: "you got 2 months"
2018-01-25T23:42:43Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018-01-25T23:43:23Z aeth: As in, compile a toy lisp to the VM?
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2018-01-25T23:49:49Z megachombas: what do you mean by toy?
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2018-01-25T23:50:12Z aeth: I mean a trivial Lisp-like language, not an actual usable language.
2018-01-25T23:50:36Z aeth: (And if your requirement is to compile a standard Lisp or Scheme, then you're doomed.)
2018-01-25T23:50:57Z megachombas: yes yes, just some of the language
2018-01-25T23:51:05Z megachombas: like defun, setf, etc
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2018-01-25T23:56:46Z whoman: well
2018-01-25T23:57:26Z whoman: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp
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2018-01-25T23:58:32Z aeth: I'm not sure any Lisp resources will be helpful. The assignment itself, even to those who know Lisp, will probably take more than one day to write.
2018-01-25T23:59:30Z aeth: I'd estimate 3 days.
2018-01-26T00:01:05Z aeth: (And no one is going to do your homework for you, so you'd have to add the time it would take to learn Lisp.)
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2018-01-26T00:02:08Z whoman: good thing advice is free
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2018-01-26T00:03:05Z pjb: aeth: for a student, yes. I would do it in a day, I already done it several times, including an assembler, a disassembler, etc.
2018-01-26T00:03:14Z loli: was apply not there?
2018-01-26T00:03:34Z aeth: pjb: I would estimate 3 days for someone doing it the first time, student or not. Obviously doing something more than once makes you write it a lot faster. Sorry, I could have been clearer.
2018-01-26T00:04:15Z aeth: A minimum of two calendar days because sometimes you get to a point where you get stuck and only sleep can solve things.
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2018-01-26T00:04:47Z whoman: hows your project going aeth
2018-01-26T00:05:10Z aeth: whoman: which one?
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2018-01-26T00:06:24Z whoman: whichever one is going
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2018-01-26T00:07:43Z aeth: Slow progress on everything. I've been sick, and it was really bad on Monday.
2018-01-26T00:09:32Z whoman: i am sorry to hear,i hope your health and quality of life returns to normal and/or improves
2018-01-26T00:11:13Z aeth: thanks
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2018-01-26T00:17:25Z drmeister: Is there a lisp function that waits for the user to hit enter or a key - something that will work in slime.
2018-01-26T00:18:40Z drmeister: I guess y-or-n-p
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2018-01-26T00:19:51Z drmeister: Hmm, it causes my slime to freak out.
2018-01-26T00:20:37Z whoman: read ?
2018-01-26T00:20:43Z whoman: *standard-input* ?
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2018-01-26T00:21:04Z drmeister: No - it's ok.
2018-01-26T00:21:23Z drmeister: I wasn't sure if it would block and respond properly.
2018-01-26T00:21:28Z whoman: ~_~ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5721842/read-line-in-common-lisp
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2018-01-26T01:26:22Z pransninja: True to form, the Chapter 13 of PCL took me as long as every other chapter before it, the chapter title: Beyond Lists: Other Uses for Cons Cells
2018-01-26T01:26:36Z pransninja: So lisp is basically a language for cons cells processing.
2018-01-26T01:26:48Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-26T01:26:53Z pransninja: Shoulda call it consp. lol
2018-01-26T01:27:16Z pransninja: Also
2018-01-26T01:27:27Z pransninja: is there any package for ascii printing datatypes?
2018-01-26T01:27:43Z aeth: Lisp has multidimensional arrays, hash-tables, and other things that aren't cons cells.
2018-01-26T01:28:14Z pransninja: I thought hash tables are just plist?
2018-01-26T01:28:16Z pransninja: no?
2018-01-26T01:28:20Z iqubic: /join #git
2018-01-26T01:28:21Z iqubic:  
2018-01-26T01:28:23Z pransninja: or does lisp has real hashtables?
2018-01-26T01:28:37Z pransninja: iqubic: you dun goffed, git.
2018-01-26T01:29:08Z aeth: Modern Lisp is as much about LISt Processing as a Swiss army knife is a knife.
2018-01-26T01:30:01Z aeth: pransninja: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
2018-01-26T01:30:04Z pransninja: aeth: That is not a yes or no answer, I am confused.
2018-01-26T01:30:39Z aeth: Syntactically, everything's cons cells. The actual data structures that you create are not, though.
2018-01-26T01:31:35Z |3b|: CL has 'real' hash tables, vectors, arrays, etc
2018-01-26T01:31:37Z aeth: closures, hash tables, multidimensional arrays, structs, standard-objects, etc., couldn't be efficiently implemented with cons cells.
2018-01-26T01:31:51Z aeth: (vectors in Lisp are just multidimensional arrays of dimension 1)
2018-01-26T01:32:31Z pransninja: isn't that what vectors are, anyways?
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2018-01-26T01:37:36Z aeth: vectors (including strings) will have an O(1) length and an O(1) elt (or aref). lists will have an O(n) length and an O(n) elt (or nth)
2018-01-26T01:38:05Z aeth: Vectors have different performance characteristics. And even if they're expressed as lists in source code, they will (usually) be turned into vectors at compile time.
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2018-01-26T01:39:48Z aeth: CL's hash-tables have a different performance trade-off than plists or alists. In theory, plists might be faster for very short things, but hash-tables will win for large data sets.
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2018-01-26T01:43:19Z pjb: Last time I benchmarked, for implementations compiling to native code the break-even  point was about 5 entries (<= 5 entries, a-list or p-list are faster; >5 entries, hash-tables are faster), and for byte-interpreted implementations such as clisp, the break-even point is more like 35 entires!
2018-01-26T01:43:37Z pransninja: aeth: So is the implementation of hashtables part of the standard?
2018-01-26T01:43:41Z pjb: One should note also that the space overhead of hash-tables is way over lists!
2018-01-26T01:43:58Z pransninja: Should I expect standard complaint compilers to make the same perf trade-offs?
2018-01-26T01:44:09Z pjb: If you can bound the number of elements, to a small number, it may be even better to use a vector than a hash-table.
2018-01-26T01:45:58Z aeth: pransninja: You can't expect all implementations to behave exactly the same because maybe one day someone will finish JSCL or write a popular JIT bytecode CL.
2018-01-26T01:46:21Z aeth: pransninja: But hash tables are in the standard, as are vectors. And a lot of the same optimizations apply to all of the current major implementations.
2018-01-26T01:46:48Z pransninja: aeth: But does the standard make any recommendations?
2018-01-26T01:46:49Z aeth: e.g. unless you're using clisp, you can pretty much assume that you can make single-float and double-float specialized arrays.
2018-01-26T01:46:56Z pransninja: similar to recycling nature of some functions.
2018-01-26T01:47:08Z aeth: pransninja: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
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2018-01-26T01:47:22Z aeth: That's what the standard says about hash tables (or at least one entry point into what it says)
2018-01-26T01:47:24Z pransninja: I can barely make sense of hyperspec.
2018-01-26T01:47:27Z pransninja: it is rubbish, imho.
2018-01-26T01:47:56Z pransninja: just randomly indent text thrown on the screen
2018-01-26T01:48:05Z pransninja: as if typesetting wasn't invented yet
2018-01-26T01:48:10Z aeth: Actually finding the highest performance thing is tricky.
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2018-01-26T01:48:28Z aeth: Vectors will win more often than you think when numbers are involved because they can be specialized
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2018-01-26T01:48:51Z aeth: i.e. you can have a vector of double-floats or a vector of (unsigned-byte 32)s
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2018-01-26T01:49:26Z aeth: There aren't any typed lists or typed hash tables (well, they all store type T), so vectors often give more information to the compiler
2018-01-26T01:49:46Z pransninja: That is good to know.
2018-01-26T01:50:04Z pransninja: Any good material on benchmarking and optimizations in lips?
2018-01-26T01:51:26Z aeth: Most information is probably specific to SBCL (and/or CMUCL), but a good deal of that will also apply to CCL and possibly even ECL.
2018-01-26T01:51:48Z aeth: Optimizing CLISP in its current state is imo hopeless.
2018-01-26T01:52:01Z aeth: s/Optimizing CLISP/Optimizing for CLISP/
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2018-01-26T01:53:03Z pransninja: That makes me sad.
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2018-01-26T01:54:33Z aeth: Most optimizations are imo a waste of time. Generally you want to (declare (optimize (speed 3))) and declare any types that are numeric or arrays (if you can provide length information for the array type, that can really help because the compiler may replace repeated bounds checking with one type check at the beginning of the function)
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2018-01-26T01:54:44Z aeth: SBCL will give you optimization notes when compiling when speed is 3.
2018-01-26T01:56:12Z aeth: If everything is of the same numeric type, you can use :element-type in make-array, e.g. (make-array 3 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 0f0) or (make-array '(2 2) :element-type 'double-float :initial-contents '((0d0 0d0) (0d0 0d0)))
2018-01-26T01:56:41Z aeth: If things aren't of the same type but are numbers or arrays, typed slots in a struct (defined with defstruct) might work
2018-01-26T01:57:32Z aeth: If something is trivial and probably never going to change, inlining can help the compiler. Above the function you can do this: (declaim (inline the-function-name-goes-here))
2018-01-26T01:57:38Z aeth: And that's about it.
2018-01-26T01:59:07Z aeth: Not every implementation will use all of the optimization information you give it, e.g. CLISP doens't have single-float or double-float specialized arrays, and just makes them T arrays. I think almost every implementation does accept single-float, double-float and a large number of integer types (e.g. (unsigned-byte 8) and (unsigned-byte 32))
2018-01-26T01:59:24Z aeth: Only character and bit are required by the specification, but (unsigned-byte 8) is heavily assumed by many libraries.
2018-01-26T02:00:52Z pjb: aeth: on the other hand, clisp has short-float that will fit immedately into arrays of T!
2018-01-26T02:01:02Z pjb: also it has long-float to provide more precision!
2018-01-26T02:01:13Z pjb: clisp has unique features not found in other implementations!
2018-01-26T02:01:22Z pransninja: i like visibility into perf.
2018-01-26T02:01:28Z aeth: pjb: The arbitrary-precision long float is the one reason to use CLISP for code that deals with numbers, afaik.
2018-01-26T02:01:38Z pransninja: I don't mind when things get optimized, but I don't like when it does not.
2018-01-26T02:01:50Z pransninja: in short, I like predictability.
2018-01-26T02:01:52Z aeth: pjb: It is a useful feature when you need it
2018-01-26T02:01:56Z pransninja: I want to be able to reason about my programs perfs.
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2018-01-26T02:02:32Z pjb: pransninja: you can reason with clisp, you just need to know what CL functions are implemented in C and what are implemented in lisp!
2018-01-26T02:02:52Z pjb: If you write your function to process your data with CL functions implemented in C, then it'll be fast. If you do it in lisp, it'll be slower.
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2018-01-26T02:03:17Z pjb: Indead of writing a loop, use reduce or mapcar!
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2018-01-26T02:03:56Z pjb: So what's funny is that basically you must adopt a style opposite to what you'd do in sbcl to write efficient code in clisp :-)
2018-01-26T02:04:32Z aeth: pransninja: For advanced optimizations, you might be interested in specialization-store. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2018-01-26T02:04:38Z aeth: pjb: yeah
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2018-01-26T02:05:28Z pransninja: at this point, I would like to learn the basics of how you go about optimizations in lisp
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2018-01-26T02:05:45Z pransninja: The point about find the C function is nice, thanks pjb.
2018-01-26T02:06:03Z pransninja: Though, the fact that optimizations depends on the compiler, which is fair, but still, makes it hard.
2018-01-26T02:06:55Z pjb: pransninja: it goes like this: you write code that works, without having to deal with memory management or array overflow, because this is controled by the implementation. Once you have something that works, since you've spent 1/10 the time you'd have spent in C, you are left with 9/10 of the time to think about better algorithms.  So you can implement them and obtain faster results.
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2018-01-26T02:07:45Z pransninja: pjb: Oh, like I have said before, C is a shameful benchmark of language design.
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2018-01-26T02:08:03Z pransninja: So anything that compares safety or productivity with C is meaningless to me.
2018-01-26T02:08:13Z pransninja: But I do like the idea of write then optimize.
2018-01-26T02:08:17Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Performance
2018-01-26T02:08:23Z pransninja: However, the question is, how does one optimizes?
2018-01-26T02:08:54Z pjb: pransninja: as I said, using O(nlogn) algorithms instead of O(n^2) algorithms.
2018-01-26T02:09:03Z pjb: Using O(n) algorithms instead of O(nlogn).
2018-01-26T02:09:03Z pransninja: I don't even know how to benchmark meaningfully.
2018-01-26T02:09:11Z pjb: Using O(1) algorithms instead of O(n).
2018-01-26T02:09:12Z pjb: etc.
2018-01-26T02:12:21Z pransninja: I could look into the dissembler output but that is kinda not cool.
2018-01-26T02:12:52Z pransninja: https://xkcd.com/224/
2018-01-26T02:13:01Z shrdlu68: pransninja: When compiling with slime you get optimization tips (at least using SBCL)
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2018-01-26T02:13:54Z aeth: pransninja: The list I gave is pretty much all you need, except perhaps with the added advice to preallocate things before large loops. Consing (heap allocation) in large loops might hurt performance.
2018-01-26T02:14:17Z aeth: CL is not a pure functional programming language. People are fine with using things like setf when it helps performance
2018-01-26T02:15:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think it's less /functional/ to mandate a single style at the expense of the programmer's style.
2018-01-26T02:15:54Z aeth: Most of the advice is about providing array or number type information to the compiler. That's because functions like + and map are type-generic, but can be inlined by the compiler if the type is known. A lot of type information will be given to the compiler just by the function call. e.g. you can only use car on a cons cell
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2018-01-26T02:16:21Z aeth: So it isn't really worth it to give other type information, at least afaik
2018-01-26T02:16:46Z aeth: Of course, sometimes you might *want* a generic + or map
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2018-01-26T02:19:09Z aeth: (Providing the array types can potentially also do two other things: remove bounds checks and tell the compiler the type of the thing that it gets with aref)
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2018-01-26T02:33:20Z aeth: pransninja: What are you interested in optimizing, btw? If it's a program that essentially uses no numbers anywhere, almost all of the advice I just gave is worthless.
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2018-01-26T02:34:07Z pransninja: aeth: I know it sounds illogical but I have a fear of slow programs.
2018-01-26T02:34:20Z pransninja: I really like to know what my programs does and it will have decent perfs.
2018-01-26T02:34:40Z aeth: pransninja: In SBCL, this is how you profile: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Profiling
2018-01-26T02:34:46Z aeth: pransninja: In other CLs, it's more complicated.
2018-01-26T02:35:22Z pransninja: beautiful.
2018-01-26T02:35:26Z pransninja: That is what I was expecting.
2018-01-26T02:35:29Z pransninja: Thank you aeth.
2018-01-26T02:35:36Z pransninja: I am using SBCL so it should be useful.
2018-01-26T02:36:05Z aeth: Generally, I optimize on SBCL and hope it works on the other CLs because they just don't expose as much useful information. An almost-complete implementation called Clasp (a C++ and LLVM CL) might, though. And SICL (not anywhere near complete afaik) is designed to be very easy to debug.
2018-01-26T02:37:24Z aeth: Only optimize the parts that matter, though. You can spend literally forever getting an extra few percent, and the more specific the optimizations are, the less likely they are to be portable away from SBCL.
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2018-01-26T02:41:14Z aeth: (I think the point where you've gone way too far is probably if your code has implementation-specific optimizations all over the place. And if you're inlining assembly...)
2018-01-26T02:41:33Z aeth: (I mean things like e.g. #+sbcl)
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2018-01-26T02:48:13Z ebzzry_: On SBCL, is there a benchmark between vectors and lists?
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2018-01-26T02:50:51Z aeth: Afaik, for anything that can be expressed as a specialized array, vectors will win unless you construct those benchmarks carefully to have lists win. Lots of inserting in the middle, maybe?
2018-01-26T02:51:15Z ebzzry_: aeth: ok
2018-01-26T02:52:35Z aeth: For the best performance with arrays, though, you'll want known length and you'll want an :element-type that actually gets used (not just a T array).
2018-01-26T02:53:02Z aeth: An unknown length will bounds check on every single aref iirc
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2018-01-26T02:55:03Z aeth: So the most dramatic wins for vectors over lists would probably be something like 4x4 matrix multiplication.
2018-01-26T02:56:32Z aeth: (especially when the matrix has the :element-type defined as single-float or double-float)
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2018-01-26T03:01:10Z aeth: So, afaik, Common Lisp is almost an acceptable FORTRAN now. It looks like it's good enough for Maxima (a CAS program) to use f2cl to compile Fortran to CL. https://github.com/andrejv/maxima/blob/fc2d2c3d0cc532275ac060d46924c26afc667c50/src/numerical/f2cl-lib.lisp
2018-01-26T03:01:16Z ebzzry_: aeth: ok
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2018-01-26T03:02:02Z ebzzry_: aeth: searching for the existence of an element is generally faster with vectors, right?
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2018-01-26T03:03:03Z aeth: That sounds like something that should (theoretically) work equally well with either sequence type, so benchmark it!
2018-01-26T03:03:28Z Bike: more complicated data structures can do that sublinearly.
2018-01-26T03:03:53Z aeth: wait
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2018-01-26T03:04:00Z aeth: I probably should ask "Is it sorted?" first
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2018-01-26T03:05:13Z ebzzry_: aeth: Yes, it is sorted.
2018-01-26T03:05:39Z aeth: Then vectors will win
2018-01-26T03:05:49Z aeth: (But there are probably still better data structures for that)
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2018-01-26T03:08:28Z ebzzry_: aeth: what are they?
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2018-01-26T03:14:05Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_data_structure
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2018-01-26T03:22:43Z ebzzry_: thanks
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2018-01-26T04:06:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-26T04:12:28Z shrdlu68: beach: Good morning!
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2018-01-26T04:26:03Z iqubic: Morning beach.
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2018-01-26T04:42:46Z jmercouris: good morning everyone
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2018-01-26T04:42:58Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
2018-01-26T04:46:10Z jmercouris: beach: I'm finally awake as early as you, only because of jet lag though :P
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2018-01-26T04:47:15Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2018-01-26T04:47:50Z jmercouris: Yeah, mornings suck :D I very much prefer night
2018-01-26T04:48:36Z whoman: forests are contained in seeds
2018-01-26T04:48:53Z whoman: or night is very early morning, and morning is very late night
2018-01-26T04:50:13Z jmercouris: whoman: "forests are contained in seeds", I feel like there is some profound meaning to this, but I'm not seeing the connection here
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2018-01-26T04:51:05Z whoman: if morning is the seed for night, how we nurture and water this, will bloom into the night. and vice versa, how night fertilizes the next morning
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2018-01-26T04:51:25Z whoman: so you may be having good nights because of bad mornings, but having bad morning times because of good night times ...
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2018-01-26T04:53:26Z defaultxr: has anyone noticed weird behavior when using quoted lists in tests in fiveam? i.e. if i use '(1 2 3 4 5) in two different tests, and one of the tests modifies its list, it affects the other test. doesn't happen if i use (list 1 2 3 4 5) instead. but it seems like it shouldn't happen at all. didn't happen when i was using prove.
2018-01-26T04:53:30Z jmercouris: hmm, that is an interesting thought
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2018-01-26T04:54:09Z jmercouris: defaultxr: Does the behavior persist across implementations?
2018-01-26T04:55:29Z defaultxr: i have not tried other implementations.
2018-01-26T04:55:31Z defaultxr: only sbcl
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2018-01-26T04:56:43Z defaultxr: i'll try installing another and installing quicklisp on it, etc, if you think that will make a difference
2018-01-26T04:56:49Z jmercouris: defaultxr: Are your tests running concurrently?
2018-01-26T04:56:56Z jmercouris: Does this behavior manifest itself every time?
2018-01-26T04:57:33Z jmercouris: I'm just asking general troubleshooting questions, it sounds a very strange error beacause the quoted list should not share context with another test, and I am thinking it may be some strange bug
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2018-01-26T04:57:59Z defaultxr: the tests seem to be running concurrently based on some print statements i added to my code while i was testing
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2018-01-26T04:58:20Z jmercouris: I also don't know what the difference between '(1 2 3 4 5) and (list 1 2 3 4 5) on an implementation level is
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2018-01-26T04:58:53Z jmercouris: maybe there is some strange compiler optimization behavior going on with contexts, that's my best guess
2018-01-26T04:59:05Z whoman: there shouldnt be any real difference, not like how its affecting the situation there
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2018-01-26T04:59:14Z whoman nodly
2018-01-26T04:59:56Z jmercouris: what if you make the two lists different, does the error still appear?
2018-01-26T05:00:10Z jmercouris: like in one of the tests you do '(1 2 3) and in the other '(1 2 3 4)?
2018-01-26T05:00:27Z defaultxr: it doesn't, if the two lists are different. i'm guessing it has something to do with this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/578365 "DO NOT USE QUOTE TO CREATE LISTS THAT YOU WILL LATER MODIFY. The spec allows the compiler to treat quoted lists as constants"
2018-01-26T05:00:41Z defaultxr: it's weird, though, that it never happened when i was using prove.
2018-01-26T05:00:50Z jmercouris: possibly the order of operations
2018-01-26T05:01:24Z jmercouris: or maybe different contexts with threads or something, no idea
2018-01-26T05:02:00Z |3b|: yeah, modifying literals is undefined behavior
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2018-01-26T05:02:29Z jmercouris: |3b|: So if I do something like (push 1 '(1 2 3)) what will I get?
2018-01-26T05:02:51Z |3b|: an error, since PUSH requires a place not a list?
2018-01-26T05:03:22Z jmercouris: Lol shit, yes, you are correct
2018-01-26T05:03:26Z |3b|: PUSH doesn't modify the list stored at that place when called correctly though, it just changes the contents of the place to point to a list whose CDR is the previous list
2018-01-26T05:04:31Z jmercouris: |3b|: How about this (setf a '(1 2 3)) (push 1 a)
2018-01-26T05:04:35Z |3b|: if that previous list was a literal, you are allowed to modify the car/cdr of the new value, since that cons was created by PUSH, but you are not allowed to modify any car/cdr past that, since they are from the literal list
2018-01-26T05:04:49Z beach: jmercouris: That does not modify the list.
2018-01-26T05:04:55Z |3b|: right, that's the 'correct' i was talking about
2018-01-26T05:05:10Z |3b|: the value stored in A is modified, but not the list previously stored in A
2018-01-26T05:05:26Z jmercouris: Aha, I see, it won't let me do a pop on that list
2018-01-26T05:05:39Z jmercouris: I assume pop does actually modify the list instead of returning a copy of the list with the element missing
2018-01-26T05:05:49Z |3b|: pop is also fine even on literal lists, since it only modifies variable bindings
2018-01-26T05:06:17Z |3b|: if you retain another binding to the beginning of the list, it still exists unchanged
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2018-01-26T05:07:01Z jmercouris: There's a special type of destructive and non destructive lisp operations
2018-01-26T05:07:04Z jmercouris: What is the name for these?
2018-01-26T05:07:06Z |3b|: (theoretically it still remains unchanged even if you don't, but GC will may affect in ways you can no longer detect, but which wont affect the behavior of your program)
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2018-01-26T05:08:29Z jmercouris: Ah, seems to be literally called destructive and non-destructive :D
2018-01-26T05:08:52Z jmercouris: SO like the difference between (nreverse) and (reverse)
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2018-01-26T05:10:15Z jmercouris: is there a strong argument for using recycling functions?
2018-01-26T05:10:27Z jmercouris: Are they more performant? or do they yield some other benefit?
2018-01-26T05:10:31Z |3b|: right, nreverse may modify the structure of its arguments, so shouldn't be called on literals
2018-01-26T05:10:39Z |3b|: just performance
2018-01-26T05:10:48Z |3b|: (space and time)
2018-01-26T05:11:01Z jmercouris: So basically if you are manipulating a piece of data over and over again to avoid gc you might use a recycling function instead
2018-01-26T05:11:09Z jmercouris: how expensive is GC in lisp, and how/when is it invoked?
2018-01-26T05:11:46Z |3b|: note that not all of them are /required/ to work in-place, so probably should check the spec (and/or rethink the algorithm) if that matters a lot
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2018-01-26T05:13:19Z |3b|: expense of GC depends on your data to some extent, lots of conses is more expensive to GC than same amount of storage for vectors specialized for things like fixnums or characters that can be known not to contain other objects
2018-01-26T05:14:37Z |3b|: when it is invoked depends on the implementation, usually in some way related to amount of allocations
2018-01-26T05:14:37Z aeth: |3b|: Does that mean one big 2D array is better than a vector of specialized vectors because the latter has a T vector that has to be walked through?
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2018-01-26T05:16:00Z jmercouris: |3b|: What is the expensive part based upon the number of cons' is each cons cell it's own object that must be free'd?
2018-01-26T05:16:09Z jmercouris: s/it's/its
2018-01-26T05:16:11Z |3b|: right, though small effect on GC time might be outweighed by increased costs in the actual code if the abstraction is worse
2018-01-26T05:17:11Z jmercouris: basically on a system level here, when we run a GC in lisp, are we actually freeing the memory, or is it just now available within our loaded lisp image as "free" memory?
2018-01-26T05:17:31Z |3b|: jmercouris: speaking very generally, GC tends to involve walking through all objects on the heap starting at for example a register or other known starting point to see what is still 'alive'
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2018-01-26T05:17:57Z jmercouris: furthermore, is this memory every coalesced or just exists neubulously within the lisp image, and then has to be coalesced to reduce the size of the image?
2018-01-26T05:18:24Z jmercouris: s/every/ever
2018-01-26T05:18:26Z |3b|: if you have a 1 million element list of numbers, it has to look at 1 million conses. and at each number to verify it is just a fixnum/single-float/etc that doesn't need further processing (and if not, walk whatever is there)
2018-01-26T05:18:55Z |3b|: if you replace that with an untyped array, it skips the million conses, but still has to look at the million values
2018-01-26T05:19:17Z jmercouris: but it might not have to free those conses basically?
2018-01-26T05:19:34Z |3b|: if you switch to a specialized array, it can say "this 1 array only holds fixnums, so it can't hold anything else i need to look at" and the whole array is 1 check
2018-01-26T05:19:40Z jmercouris: what is the garbage collection strategy in lisp? is it different across implementations?
2018-01-26T05:20:04Z jmercouris: So there exist some optimizations for the compiler to be more efficient, makes sense
2018-01-26T05:20:10Z |3b|: it is not really specific to lisp
2018-01-26T05:20:15Z jmercouris: or not the compiler, but the running image
2018-01-26T05:20:30Z jmercouris: |3b|: I guess one could use any of many strategies, but I'm asking in a general sense, what to expect
2018-01-26T05:20:33Z |3b|: and differs between implementations (or even options/architectures within an implementation)
2018-01-26T05:20:38Z jmercouris: if I am running SBCL, what kind of behavior could I see
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2018-01-26T05:20:59Z |3b|: what i said already is pretty much the level i would suggest caring about it :)
2018-01-26T05:21:06Z jmercouris: Okay, so it is all over the place, and I shouldn't worry too much about it except for when I can use recycling or somehow let the compiler/system know to optimize something
2018-01-26T05:21:18Z |3b|: (until you start noticing GC pauses at least)
2018-01-26T05:21:48Z jmercouris: Do you know of any lisp implemenations wich use reference counting in their GC?
2018-01-26T05:22:02Z jmercouris: e,g, an extension to manually increase and decrease the reference count
2018-01-26T05:22:06Z |3b| doesn't even usually bother with using the destructive functions (and then only on obvious things like a list i just created, like in the push + nreverse idiom)
2018-01-26T05:22:24Z |3b| wouldn't really call ref counting GC :)
2018-01-26T05:22:34Z jmercouris: Yes, okay let me be more specific
2018-01-26T05:22:36Z |3b|: i don't know of any lisps that use it though
2018-01-26T05:22:47Z jmercouris: do you know of any lisp implementations that use reference counting to facilitate gc in an efficient manner?
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2018-01-26T05:22:56Z |3b|: lisps tend to want small conses, which doesn't work well with refcounting
2018-01-26T05:22:56Z jmercouris: fair enough
2018-01-26T05:23:25Z jmercouris: I remember back in the early days of dalvik, good times, GC would freeze the phone for several frames
2018-01-26T05:23:42Z |3b|: also possibly more likely to have cycles that some languages
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2018-01-26T05:24:02Z jmercouris: and there was no easy way to 1. limit when it runs, 2. control what it garbage collects (technically you could, but it was an abuse of java)
2018-01-26T05:24:06Z |3b|: symbols + packages + closures can make some big non-obvious cycles
2018-01-26T05:24:30Z jmercouris: Also a good time
2018-01-26T05:25:13Z jmercouris: Well, thank you for this information
2018-01-26T05:25:17Z jmercouris: now I can not worry about GC
2018-01-26T05:26:06Z aeth: I have a game loop that essentially doesn't cons at all (a tiny bit of cl-sdl2 it uses conses a little; I'll have to replace cl-sdl2 eventually)
2018-01-26T05:26:10Z aeth: It's hard
2018-01-26T05:26:40Z aeth: You have to pre-allocate everything and write a ton of macros to make complicated things seem natural
2018-01-26T05:26:58Z jmercouris: Sounds like Lisp is not a good language for game programming then
2018-01-26T05:27:08Z jmercouris: not enough granular control over memory
2018-01-26T05:27:11Z aeth: I wouldn't recommend doing non-consing unless you really needed it
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2018-01-26T05:27:48Z aeth: jmercouris: No language is good for game programming, then. C++ engines literally never get completed because C++ is is hard to do right when you're writing a large application
2018-01-26T05:28:09Z jmercouris: aeth: I would disagree with that, C# and the XNA platform are pretty damn good
2018-01-26T05:28:29Z jmercouris: I don't even like C#, but I can't pretend it isn't good for game programming, MS put a lot of work into it
2018-01-26T05:28:53Z |3b|: jmercouris: people made plenty of games in flash with bad GC, lots of games in JS with bad GC, failure to make games in CL can't be blamed on GC :/
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2018-01-26T05:29:23Z aeth: jmercouris: Most C# game programming (by an overwhelming amount) uses an engine (Unity) written in C++
2018-01-26T05:29:38Z |3b|: and even if it were horrible, i'd still argue for prototyping in CL even if parts of final thing had to be reimplemented in C or whatever
2018-01-26T05:29:48Z jmercouris: aeth: 5-10 years ago was a different story
2018-01-26T05:29:53Z |3b|: oh yeah, and $billions of java games
2018-01-26T05:30:19Z jmercouris: Java also has terrible GC indeed, thats why I mentioned Dalvik, when I was doing some very very early android games, what a nightmare
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2018-01-26T05:30:36Z jmercouris: there's perhaps just not a good platform for CL, so maybe that's why nobody writes games in CL
2018-01-26T05:30:46Z jmercouris: not literally nobody, but you know what I mean
2018-01-26T05:30:54Z |3b|: right, dalvik games too (different VMs, so java GC isn't dalvic GC)
2018-01-26T05:30:59Z loke: jmercouris: In what way is the Java GC terrible?
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2018-01-26T05:31:48Z |3b|: (java actually has some good GCs from what i hear, no idea if the defaults on consumer java stuff are any good though)
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2018-01-26T05:33:03Z loke: |3b|: Java probably has the best CG's available in any system. It's not focused as much on low/zero latency though, and tuning for near-realtime can be a hassle, which is what I suspect jmercouris was referring to.
2018-01-26T05:33:23Z |3b|: doesn't help that there are lots of ways to rate a GC, some tasks might think a high-throughput GC is great (batch jobs that run over night for example), while some things might care about latency (games, sort of), or maximum pauses (games)
2018-01-26T05:33:35Z aeth: jmercouris: Anyway, I would argue that CL is the only language suitable for game programming. No matter how badly you have to abuse the language (and literally every large enough game engine will run into limitations with the language unless the engine authors also wrote the language) you can cover it up with metaprogramming. And not the kind of painful metaprogramming you'd see in a language like C++.
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2018-01-26T05:34:19Z aeth: jmercouris: Sure, maybe the CL implementations haven't really caught up yet, but optimizations follow use, they don't precede it.
2018-01-26T05:34:44Z aeth: You're wasting time as a language implementor if you optimize for things that no one is writing.
2018-01-26T05:35:09Z loke: |3b|: Java comes with several GC's that you can choose between. And on top of that you can tune them in about a million ways. The default GC is great for long-running server applications, which is kinda the opposite of games. So yeah, for games stuff you have some tuning to do.
2018-01-26T05:35:36Z loke: The highest-profile game written in Java (not counting Android( is probably Minecraft.
2018-01-26T05:36:03Z jmercouris: loke: The implementation on Dalvik was a nigthmare, go ahead and spin up some old android vms and you'll see what I mean
2018-01-26T05:36:06Z |3b|: yeah, that's the one i was thinking of :)
2018-01-26T05:36:08Z aeth: loke: and Minecraft was poorly optimized Java, which gave Java gamedev a bad reputation
2018-01-26T05:36:23Z |3b| played at least a few others too though
2018-01-26T05:36:28Z loke: jmercouris: When I say Java, I'm preferring to the Sun implementation.
2018-01-26T05:36:34Z loke: Android is a differen thing altogether.
2018-01-26T05:37:13Z loke: Also, Android now has multiple implementations as well, so one has to be specific when talking about Dalvik, or ART, or the thing that ART has become in Android 8.
2018-01-26T05:37:21Z jmercouris: loke: Sorry for the confusion :) you are right, I was being imprecise
2018-01-26T05:37:35Z jmercouris: it is only recently in my mind that I've begun to distnguish between language and implementation
2018-01-26T05:37:41Z |3b|: yeah, java language vs (java VM/runtime or dalvik vm/runtim) is confusing
2018-01-26T05:37:54Z loke: As far as I can tell, the VM in Android 8 seems a lot better, but I haven't pushed it very hard. :-)
2018-01-26T05:38:03Z aeth: jmercouris: And my non-consing style is actually unnecessary, I roughly lowered 4%-5% CPU usage to 2%-4% CPU usage
2018-01-26T05:38:19Z jmercouris: aeth: Is it just sort of a goal for fun then?
2018-01-26T05:38:25Z |3b|: or ABC or whatever the new runtime or vm or whatever it is is called
2018-01-26T05:38:39Z aeth: (Although that reduction in CPU usage included replacing efficient SIMD linear algebra that consed with naive not-SIMD linear algebra that didn't cons)
2018-01-26T05:38:47Z jmercouris: loke: The VM in Android can get as good as it likes, it's still a VM and, bare metal is always best
2018-01-26T05:39:05Z |3b|: that's why they let you write native code too :)
2018-01-26T05:39:10Z jmercouris: as much as I like the java "code once, run everywhere", the experience is still a pipe dream, and it is 2018 now
2018-01-26T05:39:27Z aeth: jmercouris: I'm writing a game engine because it prioritizes CPU performance without having any real RAM limitations. That's a fun combination for me.
2018-01-26T05:39:42Z jmercouris: |3b|: I remember when NDK was so terribly documented, there wasn't even ANY documentation
2018-01-26T05:39:54Z loke: jmercouris: The question is how close to Java the VM is... The problem with the JVM is that a lot of its features are designed to make Java very efficient, but makes it hard to implement some features of other languages (efficiently).
2018-01-26T05:39:55Z jmercouris: I also remember having to edit special strings in eclipse to load your APK onto different phones
2018-01-26T05:40:55Z jmercouris: loke: I have no problem with the JVM speficically, I have problem with VMs in general
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2018-01-26T05:41:18Z DevilsDulcimer: anyone have any experience working with outsourcing? preferably an American company working with Indians over Telecommuting solution such as skype...are they a viable lot when it comes to going forward with a tech company?
2018-01-26T05:41:24Z loke: jmercouris: THat is fortunately no the case now. OWEVER, it's worse in another way. Now the entire ecosystem is based on Gradle, which is probably the worst piece of shit build system I ever had the misfortune to be force to work with.
2018-01-26T05:41:36Z jmercouris: DevilsDulcimer: I have only bad experiences
2018-01-26T05:41:49Z |3b|: DevilsDulcimer: this channel is about Common Lisp, not outsourcing
2018-01-26T05:41:59Z aeth: Is there an outsourcing firm with Common Lisp experience?
2018-01-26T05:42:07Z jmercouris: loke: Gradle is a war crime, I'm not sure why they pushed that and the Intellij train so hard
2018-01-26T05:42:20Z jmercouris: loke: Is google getting kickbacks from jetbrains or something :D?
2018-01-26T05:42:27Z loke: jmercouris: IntelliJ is great, but what they did to it when thet made AS was a disaster
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2018-01-26T05:42:50Z loke: jmercouris: I used to do ANdroid development in IDEA, and clicking on "run" compiled an, built, and deployed on the emulator in about 5 seconds.
2018-01-26T05:42:59Z aeth: If there's a quality outsourcing firm with Common Lisp experience, maybe we could crowdfund some patches to key CL projects.
2018-01-26T05:43:04Z jmercouris: loke: That's pretty good
2018-01-26T05:43:20Z loke: jmercouris: With Gradle and AS, that increased to about a minute. It's better now, if you're lucky enough that the damn thing doesn't roll over and die on you.
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2018-01-26T05:43:36Z jmercouris: I'm really not even seeing why gradle was necessary
2018-01-26T05:43:52Z DevilsDulcimer: thanks for the info
2018-01-26T05:44:09Z loke: Oh, and if you _DARE_ to try to load load an old project after 3 weeks of not using it, it won't beuild anymore because Gradle decides to upgrade half your dependencies and nothign will work anymore, and you are force to cargo-cult random changes in your Gradle project file to get it to run again... MAYBVE
2018-01-26T05:44:15Z jmercouris: loke: Though I'm sure it had some reason, just like the existence of "go"
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2018-01-26T05:44:56Z jmercouris: loke: Lol I love those stack overflow "I changed x to y" in these lines for upgrades which are basically breaking against user will, and undocumented
2018-01-26T05:44:58Z loke: The funny thing is that I listen to the Android Developers podcast (by the Android team at Google themselves), and they'
2018-01-26T05:45:05Z loke: re falling over themselves to praise it as the best thing ever.
2018-01-26T05:45:11Z loke: What goddamn world do they live in?
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2018-01-26T05:45:27Z jmercouris: What's wrong with maven? what's wrong with manually coyping some jars when you need them?
2018-01-26T05:45:43Z jmercouris: I literally cannot find a reason for gradle to exist other than google's big ego
2018-01-26T05:45:56Z loke: jmercouris: I absolutely abhor maven, and it's quiote telling that I'd gladly commit to Maven 100% just to be able to get rid of Gradle.
2018-01-26T05:46:16Z jmercouris: It's a case of lesser evils here, that's all I'm saying
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2018-01-26T05:47:15Z loke: The worst par tis that Gradle is just a script, with a horrific syntax hack to make Groovy look like a DSL. That means that every single line is executable and then AS attempts to actually parse this thing to make sense of it.
2018-01-26T05:47:20Z loke: OF COURSE it's nt going to work
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2018-01-26T05:48:06Z jmercouris: I didn't even know that, but it doesn't exactly shock me, that's some next level stuff... in a bad way
2018-01-26T05:48:14Z loke: Damn it... Just thinking about that crap makes me angry. I need to go have lunch now and cool down.
2018-01-26T05:48:32Z jmercouris: Enjoy your lunch, and try not think about it :)
2018-01-26T05:48:40Z beach: jmercouris: Reference counting is way more expensive than tracing collectors, and on top of that, it doesn't work for cycles.
2018-01-26T05:48:57Z jmercouris: beach: Reference counting when manually invoked is cheaper
2018-01-26T05:49:05Z loke: jmercouris: Try it next time, pluck some Groovy code in there (it's essentially Java with a more scripty syntax, but most Java constructs still work) and see the... erm... beauty
2018-01-26T05:49:09Z jmercouris: beach: automatic reference counting is more expensive, for sure
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2018-01-26T05:49:48Z jmercouris: beach: of course reference counting will also fail for cycles, it's just made for lightweight applications, but I see your point
2018-01-26T05:49:54Z beach: jmercouris: It is not.
2018-01-26T05:50:27Z jmercouris: How so? reference counting is MOST DEFINITELY lighter, you simply maintain a hash table of counts, in fact, you could even maintain a sorted hash table
2018-01-26T05:50:46Z beach: jmercouris: By reference counting, we mean that when a variable is assigned to, the object previously contained in it has its reference count decremented and tested for 0.
2018-01-26T05:51:04Z jmercouris: By reference counting, I mean (refcount++ varx)
2018-01-26T05:51:19Z jmercouris: obviously such syntax doesn't exist
2018-01-26T05:51:31Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, so every time you do an assignment, you have to go to memory and update a reference counter.  On modern processors that kills performance.
2018-01-26T05:52:00Z jmercouris: Yes, but garbage collection itself will be faster
2018-01-26T05:52:12Z beach: jmercouris: Go read the literature.
2018-01-26T05:52:13Z loke: jmercouris: The issue with refcounting is that you have to access this refcount variable all the time, and in a multithreaded environment you also need some way of dealing with data races
2018-01-26T05:52:17Z jmercouris: Perhaps assignment will be slightly slower, eg. intialization code, but garbage collection will definitely be faster
2018-01-26T05:52:31Z beach: jmercouris: And C# uses garbage collection as well, so there is nothing related to garbage collection that makes C# better suited for anything than Common Lisp.
2018-01-26T05:52:52Z jmercouris: beach: the comment about C# was the framework that MS built around it
2018-01-26T05:52:58Z rme: reference counting spreads out the pain.  with a tracing gc, you suffer the pain all at once, but you get a bulk discount.
2018-01-26T05:53:18Z jmercouris: beach: I'm pretty well read on GC in general
2018-01-26T05:53:26Z jmercouris: as I've done a lot of optimization with it in my time
2018-01-26T05:53:42Z beach: Good for you.
2018-01-26T05:54:06Z jmercouris: I'm 100% sure that a manual reference count based system is the absolute fastest
2018-01-26T05:54:33Z jmercouris: not some form of automatic reference counting, not some form of marking relations, but literally incrementing referencing counts manually as a user
2018-01-26T05:55:14Z jmercouris: it's just BARELY different than manually alloc and freeing memory, but can mean a performance boost in some cases where you know you don't need to actually now mark something during a transient operation (for example)
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2018-01-26T05:56:23Z loke: jmercouris: There is also the issue of bookeeping. In C, for example, both allocating and freeing memory requires the malloc implementation manage a tree of free memory structures which can be quite expensive. In a compating GC language, a malloc() is essentially a single instruction (an ADD, moving the free memory pointer), and a free() takes zero cycles, since you simply drop the pointer.
2018-01-26T05:56:56Z loke: Of counrse the GC intself takes some reasoucres, but it's not clear-cut which one wins.
2018-01-26T05:57:01Z beach: jmercouris: Earlier you asked about CONS cells being freed.  Did you think that some version of free() was being called in order to free those cells?
2018-01-26T05:57:12Z jmercouris: beach: That's what I had in mind yes
2018-01-26T05:57:32Z beach: jmercouris: Then your knowledge of GC is a few decades too old.
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2018-01-26T05:58:33Z jmercouris: I don't believe so, I literally just this past year studied GC, within the context of distributed systems even
2018-01-26T05:58:59Z jmercouris: perhaps there is a misunderstanding here
2018-01-26T05:59:14Z beach: Maybe so.
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2018-01-26T06:00:23Z jmercouris: loke: Yeah, that was more or less my question about what common lisp implementation is likely doing when freeing a cons cell
2018-01-26T06:00:54Z jmercouris: CL has surprised me in so many ways so I keep asking questions that I know the answer to in other languages, but I'm never sure
2018-01-26T06:01:05Z loke: jmercouris: I presume you are referring to the work neede by the GC to release the memory used by CONS cells that have been released?
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2018-01-26T06:01:25Z jmercouris: loke: Yes
2018-01-26T06:01:37Z rme: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1420082795 is a pretty standard gc reference, fwiw
2018-01-26T06:01:44Z beach: As loke says, a modern GC does not touch unreferenced objects, so it does not "free" any cells.  And this is not specific to Common Lisp.  It has to do with modern GC algorithms.
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2018-01-26T06:02:02Z jmercouris: beach: This I'm aware of, believe me :D
2018-01-26T06:02:33Z loke: jmercouris: By the time the GC frees the unused memory, that memory dones not consist of CONS cells any more. It's just a blob of memory that no one cares about :_)
2018-01-26T06:02:33Z jmercouris: so common lisp is like the rest then
2018-01-26T06:02:48Z aeth: I heard before in this channel that SBCL doesn't have a good GC and that CCL's GC is better.
2018-01-26T06:02:50Z loke: jmercouris: Of course, things like weak references makes this a bit more subtle.
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2018-01-26T06:03:16Z loke: aeth: There are certainly problems with the SBCL GC. It could be a lot better. But it's not terrible.
2018-01-26T06:03:34Z aeth: loke: how could it be a lot better?
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2018-01-26T06:04:27Z loke: aeth: well, of example, there are cases where it needs to fill a structure with zeroes instead of just dropping the reference in order for the GC not to mistake random values with a pointer. It was disucced on the SBCL devel mailing list last week in fact.
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2018-01-26T06:05:24Z loke: But one could always use ABCL and by extension autoamtically use the Java VM's GC :-)
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2018-01-26T06:08:20Z loke: OK, now I'm seriously going to have lunch
2018-01-26T06:09:01Z jmercouris: beach: here's where I was asking that question: "basically on a system level here, when we run a GC in lisp, are we actually freeing the memory, or is it just now available within our loaded lisp image as "free" memory?"
2018-01-26T06:09:28Z beach: jmercouris: The Common Lisp standard has nothing to say about that subject.
2018-01-26T06:10:01Z beach: jmercouris: But most GC algorithms, just like malloc() and free() do not give memory back to the operating system.
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2018-01-26T06:12:46Z jmercouris: Yep, always better safe than sorry though :P
2018-01-26T06:13:01Z jmercouris: I've been burned through assuming too much in my life :D
2018-01-26T06:13:14Z jmercouris: I always think I know more than I do...
2018-01-26T06:14:08Z aeth: I know I know more than I do
2018-01-26T06:15:00Z fouric: "By the time the GC frees the unused memory, that memory dones not consist of CONS cells any more. It's just a blob of memory that no one cares about"
2018-01-26T06:15:04Z jmercouris: aeth: Presumably always one would know more than they do because knowledge always precedes action
2018-01-26T06:15:08Z fouric: what does "does not consist of CONS cells any more" mean
2018-01-26T06:15:12Z fouric: is there actually a change in memory
2018-01-26T06:15:34Z fouric: ...or do we not consider them "cons cells" because for our intents and purposes they aren't?
2018-01-26T06:16:50Z fouric: (physical memory changing vs. the meatspace metainformation changing)
2018-01-26T06:16:56Z fouric: ...or (c) none of the above?
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2018-01-26T06:20:09Z beach: fouric: Because all information about the exact contents of that memory has been lost.  At some level, there are still Common Lisp objects there, of course, but as far as the system knows, it is just random garbage.
2018-01-26T06:21:30Z fouric: oh, i see
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2018-01-26T06:24:22Z fouric: ...and one more question since we're talking about GC anyway: can SBCL's garbage collector run concurrently with running programs?
2018-01-26T06:24:42Z fouric: i poked around in the manual, which says that it's a "generational" garbage collector
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2018-01-26T06:25:09Z fouric: ...but i haven't been able to determine if that says anything about its ability to run in parallel with the program it is managing
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2018-01-26T06:25:52Z rme: last I knew, sbcl's collector was not concurrent.  ccl's is not concurrent, either.
2018-01-26T06:26:11Z fouric: hm, ok
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2018-01-26T06:26:25Z fouric: so "concurrent" is the keyword i'm looking for?
2018-01-26T06:26:52Z krwq: soes anyone know how to write strings to in-memry-stream with flexi-streams? I've tried with-output-to-sequence + setf flexi-stream-external-format and also wrapping that stream with another flexi stream with :external-format set
2018-01-26T06:26:52Z fouric: *was the word, you appear to have answered my question
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2018-01-26T06:27:33Z rme: generational is something else entirely.
2018-01-26T06:27:45Z fouric: ah, so they're mostly orthogonal
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2018-01-26T06:28:10Z rme: entirely orthogonal, I would say
2018-01-26T06:28:20Z fouric: neat! that explains a lot
2018-01-26T06:28:21Z fouric: ty ty
2018-01-26T06:28:41Z fouric: (...would you happen to have any suggested resources for reading up on garbage collection and memory management?)
2018-01-26T06:29:29Z rme: well, there's that amazon link I pasted earlier
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2018-01-26T06:29:51Z krwq: actually bummer - it worked correctly but I misread the error (it was on file-length call)
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2018-01-26T06:30:14Z rme: https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#understanding-and-configuring-the-garbage-collector might be worth a look, too.
2018-01-26T06:30:27Z fouric: neat, i'll grab a copy of that book when i have time
2018-01-26T06:30:34Z fouric: ooh
2018-01-26T06:30:35Z rme: also https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#gc-details
2018-01-26T06:30:58Z fouric: both of those look very useful, thanks!
2018-01-26T06:32:15Z aeth: Looks like I just learned that the magic words that a game would need are "real-time concurrent garbage collection"
2018-01-26T06:32:29Z rme: you win gc bingo
2018-01-26T06:32:34Z aeth: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=real-time+concurrent+garbage+collection&t=hg&ia=web
2018-01-26T06:32:41Z aeth: Many of the results seem to add "parallel" too
2018-01-26T06:33:08Z aeth: about half
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2018-01-26T06:34:36Z rme: sometimes use the phrase "stop the world" to describe collectors which are sort of the opposite (and which are more tractable to implement and thus more common)
2018-01-26T06:36:23Z aeth: oh good that patent was published in 1992, the world is allowed to progress now
2018-01-26T06:36:55Z aeth: I guess you can say that patents on garbage collection are... stop the world.
2018-01-26T06:38:19Z fouric: lol
2018-01-26T06:38:36Z fouric: real-time, concurrent, *and* parallel! :D
2018-01-26T06:40:12Z fouric is not very good at search-engine bingo, which is why he asks for recommendations from humans whenever possible
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2018-01-26T06:41:35Z aeth: Search engines are great as long as you know exactly what you're searching for.
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2018-01-26T06:47:47Z beach: fouric: Here is another great paper: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1134023
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2018-01-26T07:50:09Z ioa: good morning
2018-01-26T07:51:50Z jmercouris: ioa: good morning
2018-01-26T07:52:11Z jmercouris: what's the best way to create a config file that can be loaded by a standalone lisp program?
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2018-01-26T07:52:33Z jmercouris: I've forked "site-generator" and I want to be able to pass it a series of commands to execute in the form of a config file
2018-01-26T07:52:40Z jmercouris: I'd like the location of that config file to be variable
2018-01-26T07:53:00Z jmercouris: e.g. if I launch "site-generator" in a dir with a config file, it should pick up that config file
2018-01-26T07:53:27Z jmercouris: I guess the real question I am asking is, how can my program know from where it was launched in order to load the appropriate lisp file?
2018-01-26T07:53:43Z jmercouris: s/lisp file/configuration file
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2018-01-26T07:57:40Z Shinmera: (uiop:argv0)
2018-01-26T07:57:51Z Shinmera: That is, if you're using a standalone executable
2018-01-26T07:58:41Z Shinmera: If it's a source file, the usual trick is #.(make-pathname :name NIL :type NIL :defaults (or *compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname* (error "Welp"))
2018-01-26T07:58:48Z Shinmera: )
2018-01-26T07:59:04Z jmercouris: (uiop:getcwd) seems to be working now
2018-01-26T07:59:29Z Shinmera: The cwd is not the directory the program is in.
2018-01-26T07:59:42Z jmercouris: It seems to work that way though
2018-01-26T07:59:45Z Shinmera: Not necessarily anyway.
2018-01-26T07:59:47Z jmercouris: I tried moving the binary around
2018-01-26T07:59:52Z jmercouris: ah damnit that's the issue
2018-01-26T08:00:00Z jmercouris: that's where the binary is located, not where the program was launched from
2018-01-26T08:00:06Z jmercouris: terminal wise
2018-01-26T08:00:21Z Shinmera: The cwd is where it was launched from. argv0 is where the binary is.
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2018-01-26T08:00:33Z jmercouris: Let me try again
2018-01-26T08:00:55Z jmercouris: Ah, you are correct
2018-01-26T08:00:59Z jmercouris: I wonder what I was doing wrong earlier
2018-01-26T08:01:19Z jmercouris: Thanks for your help!
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2018-01-26T08:30:34Z jackdaniel: fwiw cwd may be changed to something else at runtime
2018-01-26T08:31:09Z jackdaniel: what's more, *default-pathname-defaults* and current working directory may be inconsistent (because one or another may be adjusted at runtime independently)
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2018-01-26T08:46:48Z p_l: at least it's rare these days to write lisp for OS that doesn't have the concept of CWD ;)
2018-01-26T08:48:03Z whoman: mute ability
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2018-01-26T08:52:08Z p_l: IIRC, on windows it can be hard to get path to executable
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2018-01-26T08:56:41Z jackdaniel: right, I usually get confused after B:\ part ;-)
2018-01-26T08:59:03Z p_l recalls the times when he had A: and B: ...
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2018-01-26T09:39:25Z paule32: hello
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2018-01-26T09:39:51Z paule32: can someone check against the result 10 :
2018-01-26T09:39:53Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/bUY2XLMX
2018-01-26T09:39:58Z paule32: tia
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2018-01-26T10:20:04Z hjudt: is there an easy way to read a whole text file into a string instead of reading it line by line and concatenating?
2018-01-26T10:21:20Z shrdlu68: hjudt: Alexandria has read-file-into-string.
2018-01-26T10:21:29Z hjudt: cool thanks
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2018-01-26T11:31:41Z jmercouris: How can I print without the quotes?
2018-01-26T11:32:08Z jmercouris: I have "a string" and I want to print just "a string" not ""a string""
2018-01-26T11:33:26Z jackdaniel:  format t "~A" my-string
2018-01-26T11:33:39Z jmercouris: ah so not ~s
2018-01-26T11:33:52Z shrdlu68: ~S prints readably
2018-01-26T11:33:59Z jackdaniel: you may want to read about the differences between ~s and ~a (readably vs unreadably)
2018-01-26T11:34:17Z jmercouris: ok, I'll take a look, thank you
2018-01-26T11:34:32Z jackdaniel: princ vs prin1
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2018-01-26T12:16:43Z genos: hi
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2018-01-26T12:17:52Z genos: anyone know how to create functions for eshell?
2018-01-26T12:18:01Z Shinmera: Try #emacs
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2018-01-26T12:19:26Z genos: i cant join:/
2018-01-26T12:19:35Z genos: services something
2018-01-26T12:19:38Z jmercouris: genos: All emacs functions should be invokable in eshell
2018-01-26T12:19:48Z Shinmera: genos: Well, this is not the channel for elisp or emacs.
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2018-01-26T12:20:25Z genos: jmercouris: im trying to make emacs sync to a pendrive.
2018-01-26T12:20:42Z genos: (defun eshell/booksync () "syncs my books"
2018-01-26T12:20:42Z genos:        (interactive)
2018-01-26T12:20:42Z genos:        (sudo rsync --verbose -r --ignore-existing ~/Downloads/books/* /media/${whoami}/247B-947E/books)
2018-01-26T12:20:42Z genos:        (sudo rsync --verbose -r --ignore-existing /media/${whoami}/247B-947E/books/* ~/Downloads/books))
2018-01-26T12:20:49Z Shinmera: genos: Stop
2018-01-26T12:20:54Z genos: whats wrong with it?:<
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2018-01-26T12:21:10Z Shinmera: This is not the channel for elisp or emacs. And it's even less the channel to just paste code into.
2018-01-26T12:21:31Z genos: elisp is a lisp :^)
2018-01-26T12:21:35Z Shinmera: It's not common lisp.
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2018-01-26T12:21:37Z Shinmera: Mind the topic.
2018-01-26T12:22:03Z genos: aah:<
2018-01-26T12:22:25Z genos: well jmercouris can you help anyway?
2018-01-26T12:22:57Z jmercouris: genos: I've messaged you already to avoid polluting this channel
2018-01-26T12:23:56Z genos: ty
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2018-01-26T12:35:11Z genos: nooooooooo
2018-01-26T12:35:35Z genos: :/
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2018-01-26T13:04:49Z Xach: scymtym: what is lisplab?
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2018-01-26T13:05:29Z Xach: Google helped me find it.
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2018-01-26T13:07:07Z Xach: scymtym: xml.location references lisplab in one of its systems, but lisplab isn't in quicklisp - should i add lisplab? or ignore the xml.location system?
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2018-01-26T13:19:41Z scymtym: Xach: it used to be an optional dependency but is no longer relevant. i can just remove the integration
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2018-01-26T13:20:30Z scymtym: Xach: i have been meaning to do that for quite some time but forgot about it. thanks for bringing it up
2018-01-26T13:20:41Z ebrasca: Can I delete characters from some file to make it smaller?
2018-01-26T13:22:12Z Shinmera: That depends on your file system, but generally no. You can write out a new file and delete the old one though.
2018-01-26T13:22:45Z billitch: ebrasca: you have truncate(1) on unix
2018-01-26T13:23:35Z ebrasca: billitch: I am working on mezzano OS.
2018-01-26T13:23:44Z scymtym: Xach: removed in master
2018-01-26T13:23:50Z Xach: scymtym: thanks
2018-01-26T13:23:55Z billitch: maybe truncate(2) is in cffi-unistd
2018-01-26T13:24:14Z billitch: ebrasca: i'm working on CL VFS
2018-01-26T13:24:36Z billitch: ;)
2018-01-26T13:25:40Z ebrasca: billitch: Why someone need virtual FS?
2018-01-26T13:27:14Z billitch: to map key values shared by multiple processes and users
2018-01-26T13:27:57Z billitch: you need to abstract between disk layout and abstract contention problems
2018-01-26T13:28:12Z billitch: maybe
2018-01-26T13:28:33Z billitch: i'm not so comfortable with CL pathnames
2018-01-26T13:28:43Z billitch: not perfect
2018-01-26T13:29:23Z ebrasca: I like streams and files.
2018-01-26T13:29:39Z billitch: i think breaking os dependency is achievable by any software including a vfs
2018-01-26T13:29:52Z billitch: that is the case with web browsers
2018-01-26T13:30:08Z billitch: they nearly took over personal computers
2018-01-26T13:30:50Z billitch: the url scheme is subject of much more design than disk layout which is left to the OS
2018-01-26T13:31:11Z billitch: or mongodb ffs
2018-01-26T13:31:37Z billitch: and so would a global microkernel develop itself
2018-01-26T13:32:14Z ebrasca: I am working on FAT32 implementation for Mezzano OS.
2018-01-26T13:32:35Z billitch: ebrasca: oh great, without a vfs then ?
2018-01-26T13:33:34Z ebrasca: billitch: There is some abstraction in mezzano for FS.
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2018-01-26T13:34:32Z billitch: when i say vfs i mean all the data structures that are common to all filesystems
2018-01-26T13:34:53Z billitch: well i think the most common data structure is a variable length string which is the filename
2018-01-26T13:35:00Z billitch: and maybe there is nothing beyond that
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2018-01-26T13:35:19Z billitch: but then you have permissions
2018-01-26T13:35:33Z billitch: which are handled through rsa keys mostly
2018-01-26T13:35:48Z ebrasca: FAT32 have long names in segments
2018-01-26T13:36:14Z billitch: ebrasca: do you have a git repo ?
2018-01-26T13:36:26Z ebrasca: billitch: Yes
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2018-01-26T14:13:12Z phoe: Do I want to use DPB?
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2018-01-26T14:13:18Z phoe: Or should I rather use SETF LDB?
2018-01-26T14:14:33Z _death: if you change a place, setf ldb.. if you return a new value, dpb
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2018-01-26T14:16:13Z pjb: phoe: up to you. So far I've used dpb.
2018-01-26T14:16:15Z phoe: Oh wait. DPB does not mutate anything?
2018-01-26T14:16:26Z phoe: Yes, I see.
2018-01-26T14:16:29Z phoe: It's a pure function.
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2018-01-26T14:16:45Z pjb: Because it's more like (dpb (dpb (dpb …))) to build words…
2018-01-26T14:17:30Z Shinmera: phoe: numbers are immutable. (setf ldb) is the same as (setf place (dpb ..))
2018-01-26T14:18:16Z pjb: (setf (ldb byte place) val) = (setf place (dpb val byte place))  ; but without the place duplication.
2018-01-26T14:19:00Z phoe: Yes - thank you.
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2018-01-26T14:20:49Z jmercouris: there doesn't appear to be a straightforward way to copy a dir in CL, is there one I'm not seeing?
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2018-01-26T14:21:42Z jmercouris: I see uiop:copy-file and I guess I could copy the folder file, but I'm not sure how that would work
2018-01-26T14:21:46Z _death: jmercouris: copying a directory (or even a file) is not a straightforward operation.. it depends on what you want to use it for
2018-01-26T14:22:21Z jmercouris: _death: I'm trying to copy a directory of static assets for exporting a site-generator page
2018-01-26T14:22:30Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Use DIRECTORY, a wild-inferiors pathname, and COPY-FILE, and ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST.
2018-01-26T14:22:33Z jmercouris: currently it makes a symlink to the static dir
2018-01-26T14:23:14Z _death: jmercouris: here's an old snippet https://gist.github.com/death/2b7b1cfe6a38fc4b368ba91419c75e2e
2018-01-26T14:23:47Z paule32: hello
2018-01-26T14:23:58Z paule32: what is wrong:
2018-01-26T14:24:00Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/1UvHUv78
2018-01-26T14:24:09Z paule32: line 169
2018-01-26T14:24:14Z jmercouris: _death: Checking it out now, thanks
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2018-01-26T14:25:18Z jmercouris: _death: Interesting, so you literally copy all the individual files
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2018-01-26T14:26:07Z _death: jmercouris: depending on your situation, it may even make sense to invoke cp -R or somesuch
2018-01-26T14:26:08Z jmercouris: Shinmera: What do yo umean by "wild-inferiors" pathname? a pathname that includes a wildcard matching all child files of the dir I wish to copy?
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2018-01-26T14:26:54Z jmercouris: cp -R isn't a bad idea for my use case, I may drop it into a "makefile"
2018-01-26T14:27:11Z jmercouris: so I don't feel like I am dirtying the code too much
2018-01-26T14:27:15Z Shinmera: jmercouris: For instance: (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute :home :wild-inferiors))
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2018-01-26T14:27:32Z Shinmera: That matches all subdirectories.
2018-01-26T14:27:48Z Shinmera: Well, all subdirectories in the home directory.
2018-01-26T14:27:57Z Shinmera: You'll also need :name :wild :type :wild to match files.
2018-01-26T14:28:39Z jmercouris: Shinmera: So i'd match all the dirs, and which I would then have to walk, and then match all the files and then copy them?
2018-01-26T14:28:44Z Shinmera: No
2018-01-26T14:29:40Z Shinmera: (directory (make-pathname :name :wild :type :wild :directory '(:absolute :home :wild-inferiors))) will list all files reachable from your home directory.
2018-01-26T14:29:52Z jmercouris: That's totally fine
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2018-01-26T14:30:08Z jmercouris: But will copy-file also copy the dirs and the files in the same tree structure?
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2018-01-26T14:30:24Z Shinmera: copy-file copies a file from a source to a destination.
2018-01-26T14:30:30Z jmercouris: Does my question make sense or am I misunderstanding the approach?
2018-01-26T14:30:32Z Shinmera: You need to tell it where to put it
2018-01-26T14:30:46Z jmercouris: Right, so I would still need somehow to know the tree structure of the dir I'm copying over
2018-01-26T14:30:47Z _death: for some settings you may want tar, or rsync...
2018-01-26T14:30:49Z jmercouris: so I'd have to walk it
2018-01-26T14:30:55Z Shinmera: No?
2018-01-26T14:30:58Z Shinmera: The structure is in the path
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2018-01-26T14:31:35Z Shinmera: You truncate off the common path to make it relative, then make it absolute to the destination directory again. Then use ensure-directories-exist to make sure the folders are there, then copy.
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2018-01-26T14:31:42Z jmercouris: That's true, but unless there's a copy-file flag that will construct all the necessary folders to get to a path, I'd still need to somehow do some processing no?
2018-01-26T14:32:11Z jmercouris: ah okay, so there is a flag
2018-01-26T14:32:14Z jmercouris: ensure-directories-exist
2018-01-26T14:32:16Z Shinmera: No?
2018-01-26T14:32:19Z Shinmera: That's a function
2018-01-26T14:32:23Z Shinmera: clhs ensure-directories-exist
2018-01-26T14:32:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm
2018-01-26T14:32:35Z jmercouris: :D
2018-01-26T14:32:39Z jmercouris: Today is not my day :D
2018-01-26T14:32:53Z Xach: This is an area that is full of little details and implementation variations.
2018-01-26T14:33:39Z jmercouris: Shinmera: It is a clever approach, I now get it
2018-01-26T14:33:51Z Xach: For example, getting a list of relative pathnames via DIRECTORY on a given base directory has a pitfall to carefully avoid.
2018-01-26T14:34:19Z Shinmera: Yeah, might do symlink resolution or truenaming, so your paths might not all have the same root.
2018-01-26T14:34:22Z Xach: if the base pathname isn't a truename, the results from DIRECTORY won't be amenable to enough-namestring.
2018-01-26T14:34:49Z _death wonders why that snippet didn't give him a warning as it's missing a symbol in import-from
2018-01-26T14:34:50Z jmercouris: In a different way, I've been convinced that rsync is the better tool here :D
2018-01-26T14:34:51Z Xach: directory is specified to do truenaming
2018-01-26T14:35:36Z jmercouris: would be a nice utility for someone to write though, or nice to have in uiop like uiop:copy-dir
2018-01-26T14:35:40Z Shinmera: Oh, right.
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2018-01-26T14:37:08Z Xach: It sure would be nice to have a utility like that. I can understand why it's hard to get right, though.
2018-01-26T14:37:24Z Shinmera: filesystem-utils is on my todo
2018-01-26T14:37:30Z Shinmera: maybe in a decade I'll get to it :)
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2018-01-26T14:38:05Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I'll look forward to it around 2028, setting a cal reminder now :D
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2018-01-26T14:41:43Z Shinmera: I said maybe
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2018-01-26T15:40:07Z rumbler31: good morning lisp!
2018-01-26T15:40:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-26T15:41:53Z beach: Hello rumbler31.
2018-01-26T15:42:04Z rumbler31: whats good today?
2018-01-26T15:42:20Z beach: The weather is not too shabby.
2018-01-26T15:42:52Z Xach: The Quicklisp build RSS feeds are live
2018-01-26T15:42:59Z rumbler31: not bad on the east coast of the US, waiting for it to make up its mind about the cold
2018-01-26T15:43:00Z Xach: i added the rss generator to quicklisp, too
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2018-01-26T15:43:06Z rumbler31: oh sweet!
2018-01-26T15:43:25Z Xach: it is very simple and dumb but sufficient for some tasks
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2018-01-26T15:46:04Z JuanDaugherty is only wanting to destroy all humongs by merciful means, does that count as a good day?
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2018-01-26T15:47:25Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: Patience, Last Judgement is near.
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2018-01-26T15:47:50Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, ah good
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2018-01-26T16:05:20Z Xach: borodust: claw does not build for me
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2018-01-26T16:06:28Z borodust: Xach: what is reported?
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2018-01-26T16:06:46Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-26/failure-report/claw.html <-- argument count mismatch
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2018-01-26T16:07:30Z dlowe: I need to mess up my projects so I can get some activity on my feed :D
2018-01-26T16:07:55Z borodust: Xach: woops, thank you, gonna fix that in a few hours
2018-01-26T16:08:05Z Xach: ok
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2018-01-26T16:08:51Z paule32: hello
2018-01-26T16:08:57Z paule32: need help:  https://pastebin.com/CXEcd1Gw
2018-01-26T16:09:24Z paule32: i get SYSTEM::%STRUCTURE-REF error
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2018-01-26T16:09:45Z paule32: in line 147
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2018-01-26T16:29:23Z rumbler31: if you remove that line what happens
2018-01-26T16:29:26Z rumbler31: paule32:
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2018-01-26T16:30:35Z paule32: rumbler31: the same
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2018-01-26T16:30:53Z rumbler31: what if you remove all setf wire-in calls
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2018-01-26T16:31:33Z paule32: the same
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2018-01-26T16:33:46Z rumbler31: your full addder takes i1 i2 i3 as inputs
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2018-01-26T16:33:48Z rumbler31: but uses a b c
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2018-01-26T16:38:02Z pjb: beach: I have a suggestion for sicl (and really, for all CL implementations): annotate the function with the special variables used, and issue warnings or print notices about them (systematically and automatically).  Notably, for implementation operators.  Again this week somebody in #ccl had a problem that a ccl function to open a network stream failed, when *print-base* or *print-radix* were different from the default value; thi
2018-01-26T16:38:02Z pjb: function used princ to convert a port number to a string…  This can be considered a bug, but in any case, it should be documented!
2018-01-26T16:39:45Z beach: "annotate" as in write it in the documentation and in the docstring?
2018-01-26T16:40:07Z Shinmera: pjb: signals would also be good to know about
2018-01-26T16:40:35Z Shinmera: and tags, though they're seldom used.
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2018-01-26T16:41:21Z Shinmera: A compiler could actually also provide that kind of information automatically.
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2018-01-26T16:42:38Z scymtym: doesn't SWANK:WHO-{BINDS,REFERENCES} basically provide that?
2018-01-26T16:42:53Z beach: Sounds like good information to have.
2018-01-26T16:43:52Z scymtym: well, ok, it would have to work the other way around for the above purpose
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2018-01-26T16:56:02Z pjb: beach: by annotate here I mean in the compiler data structures.  So that it may issue the warnings or write notices on its output.
2018-01-26T16:56:18Z pjb: like a type annotation/type inference.
2018-01-26T16:56:30Z pjb: If a function calls a function using dynamic variables, then it uses them itself too.
2018-01-26T16:57:15Z beach: I think I would need an example.  Maybe I am just tired after a long day of work.
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2018-01-26T16:57:25Z makomo: hello
2018-01-26T16:57:27Z rumbler31: paule32: in half adder you also setf a and b, but take in i1 and i2. I don't think these would explain your errors though, since a,b,c are globals, but maybe the fact that they are special is messing things up
2018-01-26T16:57:47Z beach: Hello makomo.
2018-01-26T16:58:21Z tfb: pjb: you can't always know this of course, but that doesn't invalidate the idea
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2018-01-26T16:58:44Z makomo: pjb: hmm, why would you need to document it if it's only used internally by the function?
2018-01-26T16:58:55Z beach again feels that everyone understand except him. :(
2018-01-26T16:59:12Z makomo: if we suppose that the function correctly binds *print-radix* and w/e it needs before PRINC-ing
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2018-01-26T17:01:47Z megachombass: good news, i have 2 days extensions for my clisp toy compiler
2018-01-26T17:02:07Z megachombass: if i manage to compile fibo (means be able to compile constants, a defun and a IF) ill be good
2018-01-26T17:02:08Z rumbler31: -.-
2018-01-26T17:03:28Z pjb: beach: something like: https://pastebin.com/Vqk3YQQP
2018-01-26T17:03:52Z shrdlu68: megachombass: Are you using "clisp" as an abbreviation for Common Lisp?
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2018-01-26T17:04:17Z megachombass: yes
2018-01-26T17:04:37Z beach: pjb: Ah, yes, I see.  I will definitely give it some thought.
2018-01-26T17:04:47Z pjb: beach: additionnal similar annotations could be about side effects: mutation of bindings, mutation of lisp objects, and mutation of external state (file system).
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2018-01-26T17:05:02Z shrdlu68: megachombass: You'd be better of using "CL" instead. clisp means something different to most people here.
2018-01-26T17:05:05Z beach: pjb: Yes, I think I get the picture.
2018-01-26T17:05:55Z pjb: beach: the problem being that programmers have a mental image of what state is used or mutated by functions, but it is not always exact (eg. a lot of *print-…* variables are ignored for non-I/O functions…), and it's in general unknown for implementation specific functions.
2018-01-26T17:06:19Z beach: Sounds right.
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2018-01-26T17:07:11Z pjb: makomo: yes, indeed if there is a local dynamic binding of a dynamic variables used by a function, then it can be removed from the list of dynamic variables usedby the caller.
2018-01-26T17:07:31Z pjb: So a with-standard-io-syntax would inhibit all those *print-…* variable notices.
2018-01-26T17:08:03Z pjb: Currently, we get this kind of warning only for undefined global dynamic variables.
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2018-01-26T17:10:05Z makomo: megachombass: clisp happens to be the name of a particular cl implementation. that's why you should use "cl" instead when referring to common lisp as a language
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2018-01-26T17:11:42Z megachombass: oh i see
2018-01-26T17:11:46Z megachombass: though it was the same
2018-01-26T17:11:55Z Shinmera: or just "lisp"
2018-01-26T17:11:57Z pjb: megachombass: it's easy, Common Lisp comes from a package named "COMMON-LISP" and with a nickname "CL".  So call it common-lisp or cl.
2018-01-26T17:12:19Z pjb: "LISP" was an old, pre-standard nickname.  This is why #lisp is #lisp and not #cl or #common-lisp :-)
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2018-01-26T17:13:35Z pjb: beach: (dynamic-variable-used-by-function 'concatenate) -> (*debugger-hook* …) assuming it signals type errors, and signal calls invoke-debugger which uses *debugger-hook* ;-)  See the range of the problem…
2018-01-26T17:14:10Z beach: Yes, I see.
2018-01-26T17:14:30Z pjb: perhaps the result will be that all functions always use indirectly all the standard dynamic variables. :-(
2018-01-26T17:15:02Z beach: It would have to be given some thought.
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2018-01-26T18:29:48Z phoe: pjb: is https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp licensed under GPLv2 or GPLv2+?
2018-01-26T18:31:00Z phoe: I see a file called GPL there that confuses me, because the main README states that the project is AGPLv3 with exceptions.
2018-01-26T18:31:35Z jackdaniel: GPLv2+ (according to file GPL)
2018-01-26T18:31:36Z megachombass: so, do you guys see any useless code, reduntant code, or better way to do things here? https://codepaste.net/aspmng
2018-01-26T18:31:50Z jackdaniel: it is enough to search in the license string "at your option"
2018-01-26T18:32:24Z jackdaniel: ah, no, GPL is whole license verbatim
2018-01-26T18:32:26Z jackdaniel: nvm me
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2018-01-26T18:33:24Z beach: megachombass: You haven't made any of the modifications I told you to.
2018-01-26T18:33:33Z megachombass: not on this one
2018-01-26T18:33:38Z megachombass: i did on the other one
2018-01-26T18:33:54Z megachombass: i'll fix parentehsis, whitespaces and aestetic things on this one later
2018-01-26T18:34:04Z jackdaniel: megachombass: do them before presenting code here
2018-01-26T18:34:26Z jackdaniel: this is waste of everyone time if we click that link and decide, that it's not formatted correctly and point that out *again*
2018-01-26T18:34:28Z megachombass: now i want to know if there is useless code, or things that can be modified
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2018-01-26T18:34:43Z beach: megachombass: You don't get it do you?
2018-01-26T18:34:56Z megachombass: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessss i do, for real
2018-01-26T18:34:58Z megachombass: im going to do it, promised
2018-01-26T18:35:08Z jackdaniel: I think that you need to understand: formatting your code and aesthetics is a *prerequisite*, not an addendum
2018-01-26T18:35:18Z jackdaniel: for free peer review on irc
2018-01-26T18:35:40Z beach: You are supposed to do it before submitting the code, because otherwise, you put additional burden on the people you are asking for help.  That is so incredibly rude, especially since you have been told this already.
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2018-01-26T18:37:11Z Bike: i thought this assignment thing was due today
2018-01-26T18:37:57Z megachombass: i did send the virtual machine
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2018-01-26T18:38:08Z megachombass: but i need a simle compiler that compiles fibo and fact
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2018-01-26T18:38:24Z megachombass: the code i just pasted does that role
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2018-01-26T18:40:23Z beach: megachombass: See if from my point of view.  You come here and ask for improvements.  I spend time and energy on you.  Then you completely ignore what I told you, and submit crappy code again.  What makes you think I would want to help you again?
2018-01-26T18:40:41Z beach: megachombass: Or any other person who has followed this exchange for that matter.
2018-01-26T18:40:41Z megachombass: https://codepaste.net/y6mtwn whitespaces removed, parenthesis on the right lines.
2018-01-26T18:41:06Z megachombass: tho there was something you told me about function naming
2018-01-26T18:41:26Z beach: Incorrectly indented, still whitespace before ).
2018-01-26T18:41:37Z megachombass: oh? let me recheck my bad
2018-01-26T18:41:37Z beach: You really don't get it.
2018-01-26T18:41:58Z beach: Did you use SLIME-indentation to indent it?
2018-01-26T18:42:08Z beach: If you did it manually, it is always going to be wrong.
2018-01-26T18:42:45Z megachombass: let me download slime
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2018-01-26T18:43:01Z beach: Anyway, good luck.  I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2018-01-26T18:43:32Z megachombass: okey, have a nice evening beach!
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2018-01-26T18:45:38Z phoe: megachombass: for a pretty portable package for editing Lisp, you can try Portacle
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2018-01-26T18:45:47Z phoe: https://portacle.github.io/
2018-01-26T18:46:07Z phoe: it contains emacs + sbcl + slime + git in a pretty nice package that should work out of the box
2018-01-26T18:46:13Z megachombass: downloadin
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2018-01-26T18:49:05Z jmercouris: phoe: +1 on the portacle reccomendation, always very easy for a beginner to get set up in this way
2018-01-26T18:49:27Z jmercouris: unless they are already an emacs user, in which case they should be able to figure it out (assuming they didn't just install spacemacs and call it a day...)
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2018-01-26T18:51:45Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-26T18:51:50Z megachombass: have put my code in portacle
2018-01-26T18:51:56Z megachombass: selected all the code
2018-01-26T18:51:59Z megachombass: and used the lisp-interactions
2018-01-26T18:52:01Z megachombass: zero changes
2018-01-26T18:52:05Z Fade: I used portacle to drag a handful of windows devs along on a lisp 'show and tell' a few weeks ago.
2018-01-26T18:52:34Z Fade: it was so nice just to install it and run, instead of spending an hour getting everybody's systems up to snuff.
2018-01-26T18:52:34Z phoe: megachombass: your buffer is in lisp-mode, right?
2018-01-26T18:53:01Z phoe: if yes, then M-x indent-region
2018-01-26T18:53:21Z jackdaniel: it's the fact that it is a hell lot easier to point someone at portacle than scare him with: install emacs, install slime, install sbcl, go to quicklisp and install it, configure stuff
2018-01-26T18:53:31Z phoe: ^
2018-01-26T18:53:59Z jackdaniel: (but it's still emacs, so that particular someone will probably have a trauma either way)
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2018-01-26T18:54:48Z megachombass: M-x, M stands for?
2018-01-26T18:55:04Z megachombass: thats why i never used emacs, even copy paste is so different than everything else
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2018-01-26T18:55:58Z jackdaniel: exactly my point ;-) M-x means Alt+x
2018-01-26T18:56:03Z jackdaniel: C-x means Ctrl+x
2018-01-26T18:56:12Z jackdaniel: (by Alt I mean left alt)
2018-01-26T18:56:22Z megachombass: let me try alt xc
2018-01-26T18:56:27Z megachombass: alt+x*
2018-01-26T18:57:47Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-26T18:57:49Z megachombass: so
2018-01-26T18:57:54Z megachombass: opened it
2018-01-26T18:58:00Z megachombass: copy pasted the code
2018-01-26T18:58:03Z megachombass: selected all code
2018-01-26T18:58:08Z megachombass: pressed alt+x
2018-01-26T18:58:21Z megachombass: didnt see any difference.
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2018-01-26T18:58:42Z phoe: megachombass: alt+x tells Emacs to accept a typed command.
2018-01-26T18:58:43Z jackdaniel: what did you expect from M-x combination? it is used to trigger a command
2018-01-26T18:58:51Z phoe: push alt+x and then write, "indent-region".
2018-01-26T18:58:54Z megachombass: oh
2018-01-26T18:58:57Z megachombass: oh
2018-01-26T18:59:00Z megachombass: okey
2018-01-26T18:59:02Z phoe: it should appear in the line on the bottom of the screen, called a minibuffer.
2018-01-26T18:59:09Z phoe: then hit Enter, and it should work.
2018-01-26T18:59:19Z jackdaniel: megachombass: try Ctrl+h Ctrl+t for in-browser tutorial which will show you how to work with emacs on basic level
2018-01-26T19:00:26Z megachombass: yep, it indented now
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2018-01-26T19:01:24Z phoe: megachombass: awesome. `C-x h` for selecting everything, M-w for copying it.
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2018-01-26T19:01:29Z phoe: And pastebin it to us.
2018-01-26T19:02:04Z megachombass: control x and h does something weird
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2018-01-26T19:02:23Z megachombass: it openend me a key translation menu
2018-01-26T19:02:45Z phoe: welp. should not do it.
2018-01-26T19:02:49Z phoe: C-g to exit.
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2018-01-26T19:03:00Z phoe: C-g is the most handful command in Emacs, it's basically, "get me out of here".
2018-01-26T19:03:50Z megachombass: http://prntscr.com/i61mwj
2018-01-26T19:03:57Z megachombass: even after a control G
2018-01-26T19:04:17Z megachombass: that menu still open, and when i do control+x+h it doesnt select my text
2018-01-26T19:04:21Z phoe: oh, it's a second window. Switch to it, C-x 0
2018-01-26T19:04:35Z warweasle: C-g = Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-Esc-....
2018-01-26T19:04:38Z phoe: It's `C-x h`, not `C-x-h`.
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2018-01-26T19:05:04Z megachombass: whats the difference between c-x h and c-x-h
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2018-01-26T19:05:40Z phoe: megachombass: `C-x h` means, "press C-x first, THEN press h`.
2018-01-26T19:05:51Z megachombass: god bless
2018-01-26T19:06:11Z phoe: no problem
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2018-01-26T19:07:39Z megachombass: https://codepaste.net/1kdf5r
2018-01-26T19:08:07Z megachombass: i start to understand the emacs, first thing i will do before even learn more about lisp , will be how to handle this editor
2018-01-26T19:08:18Z loginoob: I installed sbcl and loaded quicklisp.lisp. Then i did this (quicklisp-quickstart:install) and (ql:add-to-init-file) and (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
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2018-01-26T19:08:48Z phoe: megachombass: you are in a tough spot.
2018-01-26T19:08:55Z loginoob: And after that i added (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) and (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") to ~/.emacs file
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2018-01-26T19:09:14Z phoe: learning Lisp is not easy, learning Emacs is not easy, learning both at the same time is (not easy)²
2018-01-26T19:09:18Z loginoob: but M-x slime gives me No-match
2018-01-26T19:09:30Z jackdaniel: close emacs and start it again
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2018-01-26T19:09:55Z megachombass: everying this is so hard in  this low level programming environment
2018-01-26T19:10:02Z zazzerino: megachombass: Looks nice. Don't forget to move the parens at the end of your compilation-appel function so there's no whitespace before them and put a blank line after is-cas.
2018-01-26T19:10:04Z loginoob: jackdaniel: I did that
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2018-01-26T19:10:20Z megachombass: now i've just felt in love with visual studio xd
2018-01-26T19:10:26Z zazzerino: and I'd be careful calling emacs a "low level" environment on #lisp :)
2018-01-26T19:10:37Z megachombass: okey zzaz. but what about code itself, what is useless ,and what can i change?
2018-01-26T19:10:47Z jackdaniel: low-level virtual machine for editing lisp ,p
2018-01-26T19:11:04Z JuanDaugherty: cl and emacs are not tied at the hip
2018-01-26T19:11:27Z dlowe: except for code formatting
2018-01-26T19:11:38Z phoe: loginoob: if you want an easy to set up environment for editing Lisp, try Portacle
2018-01-26T19:11:42Z phoe: (incf dlowe)
2018-01-26T19:11:45Z zazzerino: megachombass: I don't have time to look at it. There are several people more knowledgable than myself here- I just wanted to get you to format your code correctly so they might actually be inclined to look at it!
2018-01-26T19:11:57Z phoe: I need to run for now
2018-01-26T19:12:04Z phoe: will be back in an hour
2018-01-26T19:12:07Z dlowe: that's why I think a stand-alone CL formatter might be a good thing to have
2018-01-26T19:12:12Z phoe: megachombass: if you still need review by then, tell me
2018-01-26T19:12:16Z phoe: dlowe: I think beach is working on one
2018-01-26T19:12:29Z dlowe: oh?  cool, than I can just let him do it.
2018-01-26T19:12:32Z phoe: beach: ^ can you tell us more about its current state?
2018-01-26T19:12:47Z dlowe likes to delegate.
2018-01-26T19:12:53Z megachombass: okey well i will be back in one hour then
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2018-01-26T19:13:20Z megachombass: hope pjb will be here too, he helped me out so much for the virtual machine
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2018-01-26T19:13:30Z dlowe: but emacs could call out to the formatter instead of having it built into slime
2018-01-26T19:14:26Z loginoob: No i want to know what am i doing wrong
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2018-01-26T19:15:12Z loginoob: In this line (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") should i give path as to where sbcl is installed?
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2018-01-26T19:15:23Z dlowe: loginoob: did you restart emacs when you modified your .emacs file?
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2018-01-26T19:15:44Z loginoob: dlowe: I modified .emacs file by gedit
2018-01-26T19:15:57Z dlowe: loginoob: that doesn't answer my question
2018-01-26T19:16:24Z loginoob: dlowe: Yes i restarted the emacs after that
2018-01-26T19:16:25Z megachombass: yesterday they told me about remplacing gensym by memsym, but i dont find memsym in the doc?
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2018-01-26T19:18:14Z dlowe: loginoob: I'll help you in private message
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2018-01-26T19:21:59Z phoe: megachombass: wait a sec, what is memsym?
2018-01-26T19:22:21Z phoe: I have no idea what it is and it is not a part of the CL standard
2018-01-26T19:22:32Z megachombass: i dont know, one of you told me that gensym was trash
2018-01-26T19:22:42Z megachombass: and to replace it with memsym (or something similar)
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2018-01-26T19:24:22Z Bike: there is no previous mention of 'memsym' in the log for this channel.
2018-01-26T19:24:22Z phoe: gentemp?
2018-01-26T19:24:42Z phoe: that's what I see
2018-01-26T19:24:43Z phoe: 2018-01-25T22:16:05Z pjb: megachombas: you can use gentemp instead of gensym to generate interned temporary symbols so you don't have this problem with the textual representation.
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2018-01-26T19:26:28Z megachombass: dunno why i read memsym
2018-01-26T19:26:38Z megachombass: btw, how do you see channel logs?
2018-01-26T19:27:41Z Bike: there are two in the topic.
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2018-01-26T19:51:28Z pjb: phoe: Well, there's a GPL v2 file in the repository, but the file headers specifies in general AGPL3.  The later is autoritative. There may be a couple of files with a different license for contribution reasons.  Notice that you may find an old release (of part of it) with a different license too.  It's not maintained or supported.
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2018-01-26T19:51:52Z pjb: phoe: I shall indicate in the README that the default license is AGPL3, and update the license file…
2018-01-26T19:52:16Z pjb: phoe: you can also notice that the asd file contains a :license property set to "AGPL3".
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2018-01-26T19:54:03Z Poeticode is now known as ImoutoCodes
2018-01-26T19:54:37Z pjb: megachombass: in http://prntscr.com/i61mwj you may notice that after you typed C-g, the minibuffer (bottom row of the emacs frame) shows "Quit".  This is the sign that C-g was successful and emacs is ready for the next commands.
2018-01-26T19:55:08Z pjb: megachombass: in emacs, you're led to watch out for status and messages at the bottom of the windows and the bottom of the frame.
2018-01-26T19:55:24Z phoe: pjb: yes, I supposed that AGPL3 was the proper thing. I was confused by the lone GPL file containing GPL2 though.
2018-01-26T19:55:35Z pjb: megachombass: this is to stay consistent with interface on terminals, where the last line output (and the status line when a terminal is able to display one) is usually on the bottom.
2018-01-26T19:55:43Z pjb: phoe: It needs updating, that's all.
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2018-01-26T19:56:20Z phoe: pjb: gotcha.
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2018-01-26T19:57:36Z pjb: megachombass: concerning channel logs, you can download them all from http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/  and  read them so you'll know all that have been discussed (and learn a lot of things) since ever in #lisp!  Similarly, you may be able to find archives of news:comp.lang.lisp and learn a lot  (best parts from 1995 to 2010).
2018-01-26T19:58:54Z pjb: megachombass: then, you may also want to read the AIM (AI-Lab Memos), and other TR (Technical Reports), to learn all about the history of lisp and artificial intelligence; we have complete historical tracks from the 1950s…
2018-01-26T19:59:40Z megachombass: tbh i really want to learn lisp, because its quite challenging for me
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2018-01-26T19:59:58Z megachombass: i feel like a complete idiot to have to ask questions in every step i do in this language
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2018-01-26T20:01:14Z pjb: megachombass: it's customary to use an explicit T as condition in the last clause of COND: (cond … (t `(function ,(car exp)) (compilation-appel exp env fenv nomf)))
2018-01-26T20:01:43Z megachombass: so basicly i can remove that t right?
2018-01-26T20:01:50Z _death: ugh, asdf tries to educate everyone by signaling these silly warnings :(
2018-01-26T20:01:53Z pjb: No, basically you should add it!
2018-01-26T20:02:00Z megachombass: oh, wait let me check
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2018-01-26T20:02:18Z pjb: megachombass: if you remove it, it works only if you have a single expression in the clause. But cond clauses accept multiple expressions!
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2018-01-26T20:02:40Z pjb: (cond (`(foo) (print 'bar) 'baz)) #| prints: bar  --> baz |#
2018-01-26T20:03:01Z pjb: (cond ((print nil) (print 'bar) 'baz)) #| prints: nil  --> nil |#
2018-01-26T20:03:12Z pjb: (cond (t (print nil) (print 'bar) 'baz)) #| prints: nil and bar  --> baz |#
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2018-01-26T20:03:22Z pjb: so the presence of this t matters.
2018-01-26T20:03:52Z pjb: but indeed, (cond (t e)) and (cond (e)) are equivalent. (as long as the clause is the last in the cond).
2018-01-26T20:04:06Z megachombass: oh, i see
2018-01-26T20:04:22Z pjb: It's clearer for the human reader, to write the T explicitely, as it demonstrate that this is exactly what you want, and not an error.
2018-01-26T20:04:51Z _death: do I as a user really need to care that some library has an invalid :version specifier or that it defines a foo-tests system isn't named foo/test.. does asdf really has to bother users with such things..
2018-01-26T20:04:53Z pjb: megachombass: it's like, () '() nil 'nil and (list) (amongst other), when evaluated, all return the same thing, CL:NIL.
2018-01-26T20:05:33Z pjb: megachombass: but there are conventions about them: () is an empty list in source (not evaluated).  '() is an empty list expression (evaluated).
2018-01-26T20:05:47Z phoe: but it's preferable to write NIL if it's meant to be used a boolean, () if it is not e---
2018-01-26T20:05:52Z phoe: exactly what pjb said there
2018-01-26T20:05:54Z megachombass: roger that, so always put a T on the conds
2018-01-26T20:06:08Z jasom: T all the conds!
2018-01-26T20:06:11Z phoe: megachombass: if you want to execute an "otherwise" clause - yes, do it.
2018-01-26T20:06:15Z pjb: nil is the boolean false. 'nil is the symbol CL:NIL.  (list) is the creation of a new empty list (all empty lists are the same CL:NIL symbol, but sometimes you may want to stress you're creating lists, so you'd use (list) instead of just '()).
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2018-01-26T20:06:19Z phoe: otherwise your COND will just return NIL.
2018-01-26T20:06:32Z loginoob: Is there a comparison as to why learn Lisp over Haskell
2018-01-26T20:06:35Z phoe: which may be what you want.
2018-01-26T20:06:42Z phoe: loginoob: one second
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2018-01-26T20:06:45Z pjb: loginoob: no, because you should learn both!
2018-01-26T20:07:04Z phoe: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/c/apl.html
2018-01-26T20:07:09Z pjb: loginoob: notice also there's liskell ;-) (once you know both lisp and haskell, you merge them).
2018-01-26T20:07:10Z phoe: “APL is like a beautiful diamond - flawless, beautifully symmetrical. But you can’t add anything to it. If you try to glue on another diamond, you don’t get a bigger diamond. Lisp is like a ball of mud. Add more and it’s still a ball of mud - it still looks like Lisp.”
2018-01-26T20:07:19Z phoe: this quote applies just as well to Haskell instead of APL
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2018-01-26T20:07:58Z phoe: these two languages are pretty damn different, too. Haskell is purely functional with a stress on this paradigm, while Lisp is multi-paradigm with a stress on allowing the programmer to program however they want.
2018-01-26T20:08:10Z _death: loginoob: do you also go to churches and ask them about islam
2018-01-26T20:08:18Z jackdaniel: XYZ* is like a ball of snow. [*] - put your favourite lisp dialect here
2018-01-26T20:08:34Z phoe: _death: no better place to ask about Lisp than on #lisp
2018-01-26T20:08:36Z jackdaniel: made of crystals still behaving like a mud ;-)
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2018-01-26T20:09:14Z loginoob: _death: I can. And they should have a resonable answer I think.
2018-01-26T20:09:22Z megachombass: what more can be done there pjb?
2018-01-26T20:09:36Z _death: phoe: don't see that this question is about lisp
2018-01-26T20:10:14Z pjb: megachombass: have you read the paste I prepared yesterday?
2018-01-26T20:10:28Z megachombass: yes, but the paste was about the VM
2018-01-26T20:10:43Z megachombass: now its about the compiler
2018-01-26T20:10:44Z pjb: megachombass: it was about everything!
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2018-01-26T20:10:58Z borodust: Xach: fixed problem with claw
2018-01-26T20:11:43Z megachombass: there was about changing the structure of the vm etc, making it like a struct instead of just setting variables.
2018-01-26T20:11:52Z megachombass: but the compiler is independant of the VM
2018-01-26T20:12:14Z ebrasca: phoe: I have lear lisp and emacs at the same time and it is not hard.
2018-01-26T20:12:22Z pjb: megachombass: this paste: https://pastebin.com/7pTwi9fh
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2018-01-26T20:13:27Z borodust: Xach: i see bodge-chipmunk generates some style-warnings, gonna check if i can remove those
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2018-01-26T20:13:38Z pjb: megachombass: for example, instead of worrying about gensym/gentemp, etc, you would just use a generate-label function everywhere you need a new label.  Then you can modify the generate-label function to use whatever you want to create a label.
2018-01-26T20:13:43Z borodust: (missing aliens/foreign functions)
2018-01-26T20:15:01Z megachombass: well, i havent sent the VM yet
2018-01-26T20:15:10Z megachombass: im going to try to apply whats specified on that paste
2018-01-26T20:15:12Z megachombass: coming back
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2018-01-26T20:20:20Z _death: worse yet, these asdf warnings are simple-warnings so cannot be selectively muffled..
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2018-01-26T20:34:57Z Xach: borodust: some style-warnings aren't worth the trouble, but some are - not sure which is the case in claw
2018-01-26T20:36:30Z borodust: Xach: some missing foreign functions in the compiled blob, does not affect main functionality, but i'm working on fixing those anyway
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2018-01-26T20:39:22Z borodust: this basically means i compiled chipmunk w/o some functions for some reason (probably missing custom config or whatnot)
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2018-01-26T20:49:23Z ebrasca: Hi
2018-01-26T20:49:38Z ebrasca: I like to get opinions about my code : http://termbin.com/m1w7
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2018-01-26T20:50:51Z Xach: ebrasca: I don't think you should have a struct slot that defaults to NIL but has an integer type.
2018-01-26T20:51:13Z ebrasca: For now I don't know how te refactor : read-dir-from-cluster , remove-dir-from-cluster and write-metadata.
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2018-01-26T20:51:46Z _death: but that's a limitation of defstruct.. so maybe the solution is to use defclass
2018-01-26T20:52:25Z sjl: I usually do the equivalent of (slot-name (error "Required") :type (unsigned-byte 8)) to get around that annoyance
2018-01-26T20:52:26Z ebrasca: Xach: I have done that to see if I am reading correctly from disk.
2018-01-26T20:52:35Z Xach: ebrasca: loop to check for membership in a set of magic values would be better done with FIND or POSITION or MEMBER or similar.
2018-01-26T20:53:09Z _death: ebrasca: looks like you actually want w-o-t-s in r-d-f-c instead of concatenate
2018-01-26T20:53:57Z pjb: ebrasca: I would have written a macro to generate the defstruct, read-fat32 and write-fat32…
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2018-01-26T20:55:09Z ebrasca: pjb: I have not think in formating disk , but i like to have 1 for write and read.
2018-01-26T20:55:26Z pjb: ebrasca: it would be nice if it was independent from any underlying I/O system.
2018-01-26T20:55:32Z pjb: Don't depend on mezzano or anything else.
2018-01-26T20:55:53Z phoe: ^
2018-01-26T20:55:57Z pjb: Instead, take as argument a vector of closures to perform this I/O; or define a CLOS protocol (a set of defgeneric function).
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2018-01-26T20:56:52Z pjb: This way, your fat32 file system package could be used to read and write fat32 everywhere it's needed.  (sd-cards, planetary sondes, embedded hardware, synthesizers, mezzano, etc).
2018-01-26T20:57:31Z makomo: dependency injection! :D
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2018-01-26T20:57:41Z makomo: is passing a vector of closures a common thing?
2018-01-26T20:57:54Z pjb: It's called an object in other languages.
2018-01-26T20:57:55Z ebrasca: pjb: But I don't understand how to make it independent of mezzano I/O.
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2018-01-26T20:58:13Z makomo: pjb: well, yeah, but how common is that "idiom"?
2018-01-26T20:58:20Z pjb: Instead of calling mezzano.supervisor:disk-write, you would call (funcall (write-function disk) …)
2018-01-26T20:58:34Z makomo: it feels a bit clunky
2018-01-26T20:58:34Z pjb: makomo: it depends on what you write. In this case it's indicated.
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2018-01-26T20:59:06Z ebrasca: pjb: Maybe someone can make some portable disk-write.
2018-01-26T20:59:23Z pjb: makomo: as I said, the detail doesn't matter much. It could be a single closure with a message parameter (but then you have to use &optional or &rest arguments).  It can be a vector a list or even a structure containing closures.  Or it could be a set of defgeneric function with an opaque object.
2018-01-26T20:59:30Z makomo: ebrasca: he's just getting at the fact that you should abstract the writing to disk into, for example, a generic function
2018-01-26T20:59:55Z Xach: makomo: i haven't seen it too awful much.
2018-01-26T20:59:57Z pjb: ebrasca: For example, to access a FAT-32 virtual disk, you can just open a binary file, and implement disk-write using write-sequence!
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2018-01-26T21:00:19Z _death: that'd be nice for forensic tools..
2018-01-26T21:00:21Z Xach: makomo: i've seen passing a chain of closures, but it just looks like a closure, like a list looks like a cons...
2018-01-26T21:00:46Z Xach: e.g. cl-ppcre generates a chain/tree of closures from regular expressions text.
2018-01-26T21:01:21Z makomo: ah i see, pretty cool
2018-01-26T21:01:45Z ebrasca: Some tips to make 1 funtion from read-dir-from-cluster , remove-dir-from-cluster and write-metadata ?
2018-01-26T21:01:49Z makomo: ebrasca: and then a concrete implementation of such a function would use mezzano or something
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2018-01-26T21:03:39Z ebrasca: Xach: Do FIND or POSITION or MEMBER work on arrays with special structure?
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2018-01-26T21:03:54Z pjb: member not.
2018-01-26T21:03:56Z phoe: ebrasca: special structure? what do you mean?
2018-01-26T21:03:59Z pjb: the others only on vectors.
2018-01-26T21:04:01Z stylewarning: ebrasca: what do you mean “special structure”
2018-01-26T21:04:19Z stylewarning: ebrasca: the former two work on sequences
2018-01-26T21:04:26Z ebrasca: each 32 octets is one dir
2018-01-26T21:04:52Z ebrasca: if it is sort it is X and if it is part of long-name ...
2018-01-26T21:05:03Z phoe: ebrasca: what is the element type of the vector?
2018-01-26T21:05:10Z phoe: what kind of things do you want to put in the vector?
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2018-01-26T21:06:00Z ebrasca: It is vector/buffer/aarray of (unsigned-byte 8)
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2018-01-26T21:06:07Z pjb: ebrasca: for example, https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/heap/heap.lisp
2018-01-26T21:06:19Z pjb: ebrasca: this is a Heap management (an allocator with a garbage collector).
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2018-01-26T21:06:27Z pjb: ebrasca: it doesn't access the memory directly.
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2018-01-26T21:06:40Z phoe: ebrasca: so you have vectors of unsigned-byte 8s.
2018-01-26T21:06:49Z pjb: ebrasca: instead, it uses a *gc-memory* object, and methods poke-uint64 peek-uint64 etc, to read and write the memory.
2018-01-26T21:06:52Z phoe: FIND or POSITION will work on them.
2018-01-26T21:06:58Z _death: ebrasca: find/position work on specialized arrays, and furthermore may have optimized variants for them
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2018-01-26T21:07:36Z pjb: ebrasca:  so you can have an implementation using a lisp vector (cf. the file memory.lisp in the same directory), or you can use a FFI to peek and poke the actual memory of the process (eg. to store the heap in a memory mapped block, to share a heap of lisp objects with another process.
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2018-01-26T21:08:49Z borodust: Xach: heh, found the issue (apparently, gcc was optimizing away some functions during linking :/)
2018-01-26T21:09:10Z Xach: borodust: interesting!
2018-01-26T21:09:10Z borodust: Xach: gonna wait for travis and appveyor builds to republish blobs
2018-01-26T21:10:35Z ebrasca: _death: Now I like more w-o-t-s .
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2018-01-26T21:12:13Z borodust: oh wow, that was fast... unexpectedly (macos build almost always takes ages)
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2018-01-26T21:14:24Z borodust: Xach: fixed all warnings
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2018-01-26T21:17:12Z ebrasca: _death: ... I don't understand how to use with-output-to-string it output some stream .
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2018-01-26T21:20:55Z _death: ebrasca: you can use w-o-t-s in the code below ;; Read long name: (setf name (w-o-t-s (loop ... do (format the-stream ...))))
2018-01-26T21:21:37Z ebrasca: makomo: What do you mean with dependency injection ?
2018-01-26T21:22:41Z _death: ebrasca: but I'd split the function into smaller ones.. and try to avoid needless subseqs
2018-01-26T21:22:48Z makomo: ebrasca: i think that's how java people usually call such a pattern. instead of explictily using some library/component in your library, delegate to the user the work of choosing the right component to use
2018-01-26T21:23:13Z makomo: so the user has to provide, as a parameter, the component to use for w/e task
2018-01-26T21:24:47Z pjb: modules should not depend on other modules, instead modules should take modules as parameters.
2018-01-26T21:25:07Z pjb: This allows the toplevel program to decide what module should be used another module at run-time, instead of compilation-time.
2018-01-26T21:25:17Z makomo: but i might be wrong. however, i don't see why that should be so special. it's kind of a central point when designing something that others will use
2018-01-26T21:25:25Z pjb: Also this allows the use of multiple modules by the same module at run-time.
2018-01-26T21:25:32Z makomo: with "others" being not only other people, but also other modules within the same system, etc.
2018-01-26T21:25:45Z makomo: to me it's just the general notion of "not tightly coupling things"
2018-01-26T21:26:00Z pjb: makomo: you still need to draw a line somewhere.
2018-01-26T21:26:04Z _death: (defgeneric disk-write (backend ...)) then you can have a mezzano backend.. though it may prove too slow and then you need to try something else
2018-01-26T21:26:15Z makomo: pjb: yeah, i guess
2018-01-26T21:26:42Z pjb: _death: we're dealing with I/O here: nothing is too slow when compared with I/O!
2018-01-26T21:27:16Z _death: pjb: you're assuming things about the backend ;)
2018-01-26T21:27:27Z pjb: I'm assuming, indeed :-)
2018-01-26T21:27:36Z pjb: No, but generic functions are not that slow.
2018-01-26T21:28:00Z _death: right
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2018-01-26T21:30:39Z _death: also, it may not be a good idea to defgeneric disk-write directly, because then you'd need to pass the backend all over.. this is a job for special variables.. so you can have (defun disk-write (... &key (backend *backend*)) (disk-write* backend ...)) .. this is a common pattern
2018-01-26T21:31:18Z pjb: Now, it's faster to pass mandatory parameters.
2018-01-26T21:31:32Z pjb: But you can see here that a set of closure may be the best solution.
2018-01-26T21:31:45Z pjb: With closures you don't need to pass explicitely the additionnal parameter.
2018-01-26T21:32:14Z _death: you could also dispatch differently (funcall (get *backend* 'disk-write) ...)
2018-01-26T21:32:31Z _death: there are many ways ;)
2018-01-26T21:32:37Z pjb: and now you have a O(n) function!
2018-01-26T21:32:58Z _death: pjb: but n is practically constant :)
2018-01-26T21:33:39Z _death: pjb: also it can be cached
2018-01-26T21:35:11Z pjb: it's 4 in my current image, but it could be much bigger.
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2018-01-26T21:36:37Z _death: there could be something like (defgeneric io-pattern (backend)) that returns the closures needed
2018-01-26T21:36:45Z _death: erm, io-protocol
2018-01-26T21:37:43Z _death: I've done this with https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/struct.lisp and it was useful at times
2018-01-26T21:38:13Z pjb: Don't use dynamic variables if you can avoid them.
2018-01-26T21:38:22Z pjb: This is a useless complication.
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2018-01-26T21:39:02Z pjb: The point here is that dynamic = time; you would use dynamic variable if things changed in time.  But when you work with a fat32 file system, you don't change the underlying storage mechanism periodically.
2018-01-26T21:39:40Z pjb: You can have 2 fat systems each on its own storage.  So the storage is a parameter of the fat system.
2018-01-26T21:40:21Z _death: well, if you see it that way, why not just #+mezzano "mezzano-backend" in .asd ..
2018-01-26T21:40:32Z pjb: mount -t fat32 /dev/sd3  <- clearly you see the parameters.
2018-01-26T21:40:45Z pjb: Because it's a RUN-TIME parameter.
2018-01-26T21:40:58Z pjb: mount -t fat32 image.fat32
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2018-01-26T21:41:34Z pjb: You should try to avoid #+/#- as much as dynamic variable, and much more in asd files.
2018-01-26T21:42:15Z _death: write, there's asdf feature-testing support
2018-01-26T21:42:17Z _death: *right
2018-01-26T21:43:55Z sjl: _death: any chance of adding a specific license to https://github.com/death/constantia ?
2018-01-26T21:43:56Z sjl: "you are
2018-01-26T21:44:00Z sjl: welcome to use it, should you choose to" is a bit vague
2018-01-26T21:44:49Z makomo: "Yes, the naming was inspired by the famous Alexandria library."
2018-01-26T21:44:53Z makomo: my thought exactly :-)
2018-01-26T21:45:58Z makomo: now we also need babilonia
2018-01-26T21:47:20Z _death: meanwhile, quicklisp :verbose t reveals lots of bugs.. maybe :verbose should have a default of (< (random 1.0) *bugrevealing-probability*) ;)
2018-01-26T21:47:27Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-26T21:48:04Z _death: sjl: sure.. I'll add MIT license
2018-01-26T21:51:02Z sjl: thanks
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2018-01-26T21:53:26Z _death: sjl: done
2018-01-26T21:54:55Z _death: erm, github says BSD-2-Clause.. now you know how I feel about licenses ;).. anyway, I'll push the correct one
2018-01-26T21:55:24Z sjl: hah
2018-01-26T21:55:30Z sjl: Might be good to put it in the .asd as well
2018-01-26T21:55:35Z sjl: :license "MIT"
2018-01-26T21:55:40Z _death: sjl: right
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2018-01-26T21:56:43Z sjl: I should probably split my utils library into separate files at some point
2018-01-26T21:57:21Z sjl: The 3.2k line file is getting a little unwieldy
2018-01-26T21:58:55Z _death: I have tons of utilities in other libraries.. I keep postponing their inclusion until I find that I need them in multiple cases
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2018-01-26T21:59:42Z sjl: I mostly just dump them into my main util library, except for the mathy ones that start in my project euler repo's utils file and only graduate if I need them elsewhere.
2018-01-26T22:00:12Z _death: but usually end up implementation different designs that require different utilities.. such is the way with "code as art" in personal projects
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2018-01-26T22:03:18Z _death: sjl: what about your other (public) projects.. for some reason I made sure my public ones don't depend on it
2018-01-26T22:03:33Z sjl: anything I intend other people to use doesn't rely on my utils
2018-01-26T22:03:48Z sjl: I only use my utils for personal stuff like games, etc
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2018-01-26T22:04:23Z sjl: I try to make my libraries depend on as little as possible.  E.g. I love iterate, but use vanilla loop in my libraries.
2018-01-26T22:04:28Z _death: I guess the reason is that I don't want it in quicklisp
2018-01-26T22:05:27Z _death: sjl: yeah, I know what you mean
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2018-01-26T22:11:24Z ebrasca: _death: My new version of concatenate part : http://termbin.com/lz1p
2018-01-26T22:11:33Z _death: sjl: wrt iterate (or series, or loop wars) this has been resolved for me for several years now, since I internalized the One Function to a Function rule
2018-01-26T22:11:45Z ebrasca: _death: No concatenate and subseq
2018-01-26T22:12:04Z sjl: _death: "don't use iterate/loop at all, make and compose lots of small functions"?
2018-01-26T22:12:57Z _death: sjl: the second half.. then the looping construct doesn't matter
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2018-01-26T22:13:39Z _death: sjl: I use loop when it makes things clear
2018-01-26T22:13:44Z iqubic: sjl: Isn't that the FP way of looking at things?
2018-01-26T22:13:50Z ebrasca: _death: What do you think my new version?
2018-01-26T22:14:44Z _death: ebrasca: you can have a local function that you call with the indices
2018-01-26T22:15:29Z _death: ebrasca: (add 1 10) (add 14 25) (add 28 31)
2018-01-26T22:15:44Z sjl: iqubic: that's usually part of it.  "the FP way" can go further into things like "use pure functions whenever possible", but one-function-to-a-function is orthogonal to that
2018-01-26T22:15:57Z iqubic: I know.
2018-01-26T22:15:59Z sjl: "one function to a function" comes from https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/9SKZ5YJUmBg/Fj05OZQomzIJ as far as I know
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2018-01-26T22:16:32Z ebrasca: _death: What do you mean?
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2018-01-26T22:18:15Z ebrasca: _death: It have less bytes consed and less cpu cicles used.
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2018-01-26T22:19:57Z dmiles: in CL must one ensure structures can be expected to be accessed by slot numbers or can just by name be sufficent?
2018-01-26T22:20:28Z mepian quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-01-26T22:21:01Z Bike: structures don't have numbers for slots.
2018-01-26T22:21:11Z Bike: mop has a concept of slot locations, though
2018-01-26T22:21:12Z Bike: mop slot-definition-location
2018-01-26T22:21:12Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-location.html
2018-01-26T22:21:26Z pjb: Bike: they can have: (defstruct (foo (:type vector)) …) !
2018-01-26T22:21:54Z Bike: slot locations in that sense are nonnegative integers. so there's a number.
2018-01-26T22:22:07Z pjb: dmiles: but ok, if you specify :type vector, no structure object is created, instead make-foo creates a vector and the foo- accessors access vector slots.
2018-01-26T22:22:40Z _death: ebrasca: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/709
2018-01-26T22:23:01Z pjb: dmiles: as an implementer the question you have to ask yourself with respect to structure objects, is whether you want to do redundant work, or whether you're happy in implementing (defclass structure-class (object-class) ()) and be done with it.
2018-01-26T22:23:31Z pjb: (defclass structure-class (standard-class) ()) ; I mean.
2018-01-26T22:23:50Z _death: Shinmera: found plaster-new a bit confusing, and there's no completion for type of paste (and no "lisp" type).. used plaster-paste-region
2018-01-26T22:24:13Z ebrasca: _death: First time I read "/=".
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2018-01-26T22:25:10Z pjb: dmiles:  have a look at: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:define-structure-class
2018-01-26T22:25:23Z _death: ebrasca: there are still some issues (some introduced by me :).. code-char and perhaps use of the name "end" to denote the upper bound of the interval
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2018-01-26T22:26:52Z ebrasca: _death: It work , at least I don't see any error.
2018-01-26T22:27:35Z ebrasca: _death: Why your code lock better and is better?
2018-01-26T22:27:57Z _death: ebrasca: I don't understand the question
2018-01-26T22:28:37Z ebrasca: mmm
2018-01-26T22:28:55Z _death: ebrasca: my version doesn't cons
2018-01-26T22:29:08Z ebrasca: _death: How to make better code in performance and better to read?
2018-01-26T22:29:09Z _death: ebrasca: (except by building the string)
2018-01-26T22:31:20Z _death: ebrasca: my advice for performance is to profile first, and in general not to build structure just to throw it away unless it makes things clearer.. for the best style guide I know, http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
2018-01-26T22:31:32Z phoe:  ebrasca: make it run, make it right, make it fast
2018-01-26T22:31:58Z phoe: in other words, optimize last.
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2018-01-26T22:32:18Z ebrasca: I think I have done make it run for sertain set of FAT32.
2018-01-26T22:32:51Z phoe: Do you have some kind of tests for your feature?
2018-01-26T22:33:05Z ebrasca: Yes
2018-01-26T22:33:09Z phoe: I find it very handy to have a set of tests that I can run. This way, I can detect some bugs when I modify my code later on.
2018-01-26T22:33:10Z ebrasca: Down in coments
2018-01-26T22:33:23Z phoe: Then you can use these tests to verify that your code stays correct between your changes.
2018-01-26T22:33:34Z ebrasca: mmm
2018-01-26T22:33:41Z phoe: You run your tests once, they pass.
2018-01-26T22:33:48Z phoe: You make a change in your code to make it faster.
2018-01-26T22:33:51Z ebrasca: It is more read some file the end.
2018-01-26T22:34:02Z phoe: You run your tests again. If they fail, then you have surely made a mistake.
2018-01-26T22:34:32Z _death: ebrasca: these tests btw you could uncomment and make functions test-x test-y
2018-01-26T22:34:44Z ebrasca: I have never make automatic tests for someting.
2018-01-26T22:35:24Z phoe: ebrasca: you should.
2018-01-26T22:35:29Z phoe: They're a huge time-saver.
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2018-01-26T22:36:14Z dmiles: can someone message me what i missed?
2018-01-26T22:36:27Z ebrasca: phoe: I remember I have ask you some day ago how to make automatic testing.
2018-01-26T22:36:38Z dmiles: mop slot-definition-location
2018-01-26T22:36:38Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-location.html
2018-01-26T22:36:38Z ebrasca: phoe: Can I ask againg?
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2018-01-26T22:36:56Z phoe: ebrasca: sure thing. There are multiple test frameworks in Lisp that you can use to write automated tests.
2018-01-26T22:37:16Z ebrasca: phoe: It need to work with mezzano.
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2018-01-26T22:37:19Z phoe: For a very simple and short one, you can take a look at https://github.com/lmj/1am
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2018-01-26T22:37:45Z phoe: It is completely portable Common Lisp. It should work on Mezzano.
2018-01-26T22:38:21Z dmiles:  <Bike> slot locations in that sense are nonnegative integers. so there's a number.  [14:23] Disconnected from freenode on Friday January 26th,2018 at 02:01pm. Server disconnect reason: hitchcock.freenode.net
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2018-01-26T22:39:30Z phoe: dmiles: use the IRC logs?
2018-01-26T22:39:44Z phoe: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2018-01.txt
2018-01-26T22:40:07Z dmiles: thx
2018-01-26T22:40:26Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you plan make some meting in krakow?
2018-01-26T22:40:46Z _death: I think the RT testing framework is small and simple and used for decades :)
2018-01-26T22:41:02Z phoe: ebrasca: not really.
2018-01-26T22:41:55Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you plan to go to ELS?
2018-01-26T22:43:00Z phoe: ebrasca: yes!
2018-01-26T22:44:01Z ebrasca: phoe: wow , I don't know hot to go to ELS.
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2018-01-26T22:44:41Z phoe: ebrasca: pick your favorite travel vehicle to Marbela, Spain, and stay there for a few days.
2018-01-26T22:45:37Z tcr joined #lisp
2018-01-26T22:45:57Z ebrasca is in panic when he try to plan traveling to Spain alone.
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2018-01-26T22:47:55Z jackdaniel: Malaga is the closest airpoirt as far as I'm aware, and there are buses going out from there every hour 24h to Marbella
2018-01-26T22:48:24Z jackdaniel: (I hope I didn't mix the details, but please recheck them)
2018-01-26T22:49:01Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I think I rememver you from lisp-pl or someting.
2018-01-26T22:49:32Z jackdaniel: that may be the case, because I hang out there too
2018-01-26T22:51:36Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Do you know some fast and easy system for geting money?
2018-01-26T22:52:15Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2018-01-26T22:52:33Z jackdaniel: stealing (given you have necessary skills), but it's not socially acceptable ;-)
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2018-01-26T22:52:58Z dmiles: pjb: the define-structure-class is in terms of defcvlass .. correct?
2018-01-26T22:53:10Z pjb: dmiles: yes.
2018-01-26T22:53:27Z aeth: ebrasca, jackdaniel: Initial Coin Offering (ICO) seems to be the easiest way people make money these days
2018-01-26T22:53:37Z pjb: It would have to be improved, and to deal with :type list and vector, but the point here is to show that structure-object can be a subclass of standard-object.
2018-01-26T22:53:55Z aeth: ICOs are probably violating financial regulations, though.
2018-01-26T22:54:03Z White_Flame: ebrasca: be attractive and stream video games
2018-01-26T22:54:09Z aeth: Usually the easy money is in legal gray areas or everyone would be doing it.
2018-01-26T22:54:16Z jackdaniel: ah, I'd forget, gambling is a way too (as aeth mentioned)
2018-01-26T22:54:30Z jackdaniel: good night o/
2018-01-26T22:54:31Z aeth: Games are even adding totally-not-gambling mechanics these days.
2018-01-26T22:54:59Z aeth: jackdaniel: good night
2018-01-26T22:55:46Z ebrasca: I am searching for some generous donor.
2018-01-26T22:56:00Z dmiles: pjb:  that indeed is what I am doing so i was trying to triage whther or not i created a list of slotnumbers to turn themseves into slotname  .. i guess  :type list and vector tells us to do it sonner than later
2018-01-26T22:56:20Z dmiles: sonner/sooner
2018-01-26T22:56:23Z pjb: right.
2018-01-26T22:59:16Z aeth: There are some practical differences with how implementations handle structs that is probably reflected in the assumptions in Lisp code. :type is usually respected in defstruct, and :type is usually ignored in defclass (only CCL seems to do type checking in the latter)
2018-01-26T22:59:47Z _death: I think SBCL also looks at :type in defclass
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2018-01-26T22:59:50Z aeth: And, of course, structs *might* be optimized.
2018-01-26T22:59:54Z aeth: _death: Then that's new
2018-01-26T23:00:16Z aeth: A while back I was using :type and only CCL would care. You can probably make CLOS always care, with the MOP.
2018-01-26T23:01:06Z ebrasca: I like to ask about vulkan and mezzano.
2018-01-26T23:01:09Z _death: in fact I had an attempt at a patch to help it report better errors https://github.com/death/sbcl/commit/4341538e3e4f62ae111fee2e657d5969322f6b02
2018-01-26T23:01:10Z dmiles: i have no problem backing my structure with a vector or any sequence.. what i am missing is i've always assumeed there was also a get-slot-value-using-offset type function
2018-01-26T23:01:17Z ebrasca: mmm better later.
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2018-01-26T23:02:37Z dmiles: (since all the sub lisps like LarKC always has such a thing that works on any standard-object but definately on structures)
2018-01-26T23:03:11Z dmiles: but this is not a normal mop protocal? that is a reief
2018-01-26T23:03:18Z dmiles: relief
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2018-01-26T23:04:58Z dmiles: n/m found it #'STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS
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2018-01-26T23:07:10Z dmiles: I was plannig on storing a Layout at 0  but does that interfer with :type vector  ?
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2018-01-26T23:09:31Z aeth: _death: (defclass foo () ((bar :initform 0 :accessor bar :type (integer 0 10))))  (let ((foo (make-instance 'foo))) (setf (bar foo) 10f0) (bar foo)) ; works and returns 10.0 in SBCL, ECL, CMUCL, CLISP, and ABCL, but does not work in CCL because it's not of the correct type, with "Condition of type CCL:BAD-SLOT-TYPE"
2018-01-26T23:09:32Z dmiles: well actualyl consider :type list  i suppose they are doing that for some nefarious reason
2018-01-26T23:09:33Z pjb: dmiles: it would.
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2018-01-26T23:09:50Z pjb: dmiles: have you had a look at the way sicl implements objects?
2018-01-26T23:10:06Z pjb: dmiles: vectors can be implemented as objects too, nothing prevents it.
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2018-01-26T23:10:43Z _death: aeth: safety 3
2018-01-26T23:11:11Z aeth: Then that's useless for most code
2018-01-26T23:11:20Z dmiles: pjb: a little bit.. i know  it does what we are talking about.. in fact i am counting on some parts of the system jsut making vectors with Layouts at 0
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2018-01-26T23:11:24Z ebrasca: pjb: But objects are implemented in structures , I think they are.
2018-01-26T23:11:32Z _death: aeth: I have a declaim for it in my .sbclrc, so not useless for me
2018-01-26T23:12:09Z pjb: ebrasca: nope. in sicl structures are implemented as clos objects, and clos objects are implemented using two vectors IIRC.
2018-01-26T23:12:13Z pjb: internal vectors.
2018-01-26T23:12:28Z aeth: _death: I do get essentially the same error as in CCL when safety is 3.
2018-01-26T23:12:41Z pjb: I don't remember if in sicl lisp vectors are implement as clos object, but I would do that, at least for not specialized vectors.
2018-01-26T23:13:05Z aeth: (Even calling the type (mod 11))
2018-01-26T23:13:06Z dmiles: pjb: oh right now this reminds me of my issue :P i impl vecotrs as clos objects ;P
2018-01-26T23:13:19Z dmiles: pjb: i suppose vectors will take 2 vectors then
2018-01-26T23:13:33Z dmiles: (at least for me)
2018-01-26T23:13:43Z pjb: well, one of them is shared amongst all vectors of the same type.
2018-01-26T23:13:57Z pjb: arrays, actually.
2018-01-26T23:14:21Z dmiles: but the fact that they :type vector .. i am assuming they are trying to create a secario i already by fdefalt created thus they expected to have 0 slot free for their useage
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2018-01-26T23:14:56Z dmiles: (if all my typos didnt make that too confusing)
2018-01-26T23:15:33Z pjb: dmiles: yes, but :type vector uses plain lisp vectors. The only thing is that you can have :name option (to add the structure type name in the first slot), and :initial-offset, and the fact that you can use :type `(vector ,size) to allocate more than needed slots.
2018-01-26T23:15:40Z pjb: dmiles: mind also the :include option.
2018-01-26T23:16:27Z dmiles: (oh .. i secretly roll include and type into the same dohickey ;P .. wasnt sure if that was going to play agaisnt me)
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2018-01-26T23:17:06Z pjb: Well, one problem is that you need to define accessors with the conc-name of the current structure for all the slots that are included with :include.
2018-01-26T23:17:10Z dmiles: :include is rather the scenario perhaps i am thinking against
2018-01-26T23:17:35Z pjb: So you need to keep track of them.  For CLOS you can use the MOP and the superclass, but for :type list and vector, you have to handle it yourself in the defstruct macro.
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2018-01-26T23:20:56Z dmiles: i think i see now.. it might still turn out ok.. if they are supplying the :type list :initial-offset 3 .. what is it they are expecting?
2018-01-26T23:21:15Z _death: aeth: my patch also mentions the slot name and the instance
2018-01-26T23:21:52Z dmiles: (i am asking if they wanted their list to start at internal offset 3)
2018-01-26T23:22:03Z pjb: dmiles: (defstruct (point (:type list) (:initial-offset 3) :named) x y) (make-point :x 1 :y 2) #| --> (nil nil nil point 1 2) |#
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2018-01-26T23:22:25Z pjb: it allocates 3 slots in the list, before storing the structure data.
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2018-01-26T23:22:50Z aeth: _death: But is there a way to force the type checking on those who don't want safety (well, at least when safety > 0)?
2018-01-26T23:23:04Z ebrasca: Good nigth.
2018-01-26T23:23:29Z aeth: A type is, imo, essentially useless when it can be wrong.
2018-01-26T23:23:29Z dmiles: pjb: ah, thank you.. i know i should had gotten that from docs but it is more fun sometimes hearing it for sure
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2018-01-26T23:23:40Z _death: aeth: sbcl has some machinery for fine-grained optimization settings, methinks.. but I don't know/remember much
2018-01-26T23:24:05Z pjb: (defstruct (point (:type (vector 10)) (:initial-offset 3) :named) x y) should be accepted, but apparently it's rejected by clisp, sbcl and ccl…
2018-01-26T23:24:26Z pjb: Notice that you can define implementation specific types too, if you want.
2018-01-26T23:24:46Z pjb: (defstruct (point (:type prolog-predicate)) x y)
2018-01-26T23:24:49Z pjb: perhaps?
2018-01-26T23:25:02Z dmiles: pjb: right actualyl good example
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2018-01-26T23:25:54Z dmiles: pysically in my system i want to promot doing..  (defstruct (point (:type prolog::point/2)) x y)
2018-01-26T23:25:59Z dmiles: promote*
2018-01-26T23:26:21Z aeth: _death: thanks for making me aware of alternatives, but I think for now I'll stick to structs when I want to force type checking.
2018-01-26T23:26:43Z dmiles: prolog::point/2 is autodefined as structure-like thing that has two slots
2018-01-26T23:27:10Z dmiles: (to deplict  point(23,45) )
2018-01-26T23:28:46Z dmiles: (when prolog code introduces lisp to its innerds ... i been thinking of having iot be seen as a structure that way)
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2018-01-26T23:30:05Z dmiles: (also of course letting lisp see the innerds lisp is actualyl ussing as accesable autodefined structures :P)
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2018-01-26T23:32:29Z dmiles: i been shifting the :initial-offset when someone uses :initial-offset on the :type super (super is shifted)
2018-01-26T23:33:26Z dmiles: is sorta assumed.. (maybe wrongly) that  :type was sort of :include
2018-01-26T23:34:15Z dmiles: (i know .. :include isnt norally part of structure-classes :P)
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2018-01-26T23:35:39Z dmiles: oops sorry .. i got confused there
2018-01-26T23:36:21Z aeth: The problem I have with type checking at the moment is that I currently architecture my program as users providing data. So type-checking (and possibly other kinds of checks) might happen two or more times because ideally any mistakes should be caught early, but the program also cannot trust the input (someone could have created them another way other than the official way, to avoid the overhead of the checks).
2018-01-26T23:36:28Z dmiles: right so yes :include is shifting offsets .. but i am glad pjb mentioned that it doesnt shift the :type
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2018-01-26T23:37:26Z aeth: But I think once the data is checked in my program, it could be trusted (even to the point of (safety 0), but I wouldn't do that) unless it's a function that can be redefined (for first class functions I funcall 'foo instead of #'foo based on recommendations here)
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2018-01-26T23:39:32Z aeth: pjb: what does :initial-offset do?
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2018-01-26T23:40:04Z aeth: in combination with the other things
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2018-01-26T23:41:08Z aeth: It looks like it would either be (blank blank blank name x y blank blank blank blank) or (name blank blank blank x y ...) or something similar
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2018-01-26T23:42:26Z dmiles relizes njow that this .. www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/m_defstr.htm has examples of :initial-offset but was hoping to see the :name shoved in there
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2018-01-26T23:44:02Z dmiles: then again structs are secretly never really anything more than some synthethic getter/setters over typical list or vetors
2018-01-26T23:44:54Z dmiles: (when they are lists or vectors that is)
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2018-01-26T23:45:42Z dmiles:  (make-binop :operator '+ :operand-1 'x :operand-2 5)  =>  (NIL NIL + X 5)     so aeth (type-of  (make-binop :operator '+ :operand-1 'x :operand-2 5)) is CONS?
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2018-01-26T23:47:16Z pjb: aeth: in lisp, blank is NIL!
2018-01-26T23:47:37Z dmiles: (so in fact   #'operator-1  is #'cdar ?)
2018-01-26T23:48:01Z dmiles: (oops sorry i forgot the offsets)
2018-01-26T23:48:09Z pjb: aeth: so, yes,  (defstruct (point (:type (vector 10)) (:initial-offset 3) :named) x y) (make-pointm :x 1 :y 2) should return #(nil nil nil point 1 2 nil nil nil nil).
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2018-01-26T23:48:41Z aeth: pjb: Afaik, blank is normally NIL, but blank can be 0 in specialized numeric arrays, but... this is I think undefined behavior, so :initial-element 0 or :initial-element 0f0 or :initial-element 0d0 etc. is probably necessary in those cases for true portability
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2018-01-26T23:48:56Z aeth: (And similarly, NUL with character arrays, i.e. strings)
2018-01-26T23:49:25Z aeth: but, yeah, T array so I should have just said nil
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2018-01-26T23:49:48Z pjb: aeth: obviously, structures cannot use specialized arrays.  But an implementation could allow it, if you don't pass :named and if all the slots have the same type.
2018-01-26T23:49:59Z aeth: yeah, you can't use named with that
2018-01-26T23:50:12Z pjb: In that case, indeed, a different value would have to be used in the unintialized slots.
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2018-01-26T23:52:04Z aeth: I do like that Lisps do set things to NIL, (coerce 0 'whatever-number-type), or (code-char 0) though. Or at least, tend to.
2018-01-26T23:52:25Z aeth: Safety!
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2018-01-26T23:54:25Z dmiles: ah ok so now i understand :named !
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2018-01-26T23:59:24Z dmiles would have made :named the default and expected :unnamed
2018-01-27T00:00:08Z dmiles though has a few extra bytes nowadays
2018-01-27T00:00:50Z aeth: dmiles: The problem is that a lot of the structs probably become specialized arrays.
2018-01-27T00:01:36Z dmiles: aeth: ah .. i see.. the name would not fit anymore
2018-01-27T00:01:43Z aeth: e.g. (simple-array single-float (3))
2018-01-27T00:02:26Z aeth: It would be nice if there was a way to do heterogeneous but typed arrays, though. Where e.g. the first element is a symbol and the next 3 are single-float.
2018-01-27T00:03:13Z aeth: Make this 2 dimensional and it's even more useful because now you have a pattern
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2018-01-27T00:05:31Z dmiles: you meant like..  #(layout{type:signedByte} #(0,-1,2,45)) ?
2018-01-27T00:05:44Z dmiles removes the commas before anyone notices
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2018-01-27T00:30:45Z holycow: hmmm
2018-01-27T00:31:58Z holycow: okay so now i have a spreadsheet with 30 000 rows and rows counted.  calc counts the rows, inserts a line and prints total and groups by date so i get total number of entries per day.
2018-01-27T00:32:02Z holycow: that is perfect
2018-01-27T00:32:55Z holycow: any suggestions on how to collect all of the subtotals and pull them all into a separate worksheet?  i'm not googling an obvious way to do something like that.
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2018-01-27T00:37:58Z JuanDaugherty: a lisp spreadsheet?
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2018-01-27T00:38:17Z holycow: oh jesus
2018-01-27T00:38:19Z holycow: wrong channel
2018-01-27T00:38:21Z holycow: sorry!
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2018-01-27T00:46:26Z JuanDaugherty: (there actually are several)
2018-01-27T00:50:49Z holycow: hmm, although, strangely using lisp with a csv export of the data might just be the fastest
2018-01-27T00:50:52Z holycow: hmmmmm
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2018-01-27T00:53:56Z pjb: aeth: you can do whatever you want, just do it, this is lisp!
2018-01-27T00:54:49Z pjb: (let ((typed-vector (cons #(foo 1 2 3) #(symbol fixnum fixnum fixnum)))) (setf (tvref typed-vector 1) 4.4)) => type-error
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2018-01-27T00:55:22Z pjb: aeth: don't ask that the implementation provides all the silly ideas you have (unless you're the implementor!)
2018-01-27T00:56:36Z aeth: pjb: I'd do it even lazier than that and implement it as a struct
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2018-01-27T00:57:11Z aeth: then *only* tvref would be required, since the implementation will probably handle the types for me when using a struct
2018-01-27T00:58:51Z aeth: It would also print as expected with a defmethod print-object on the type created by the struct
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2018-01-27T01:03:07Z aeth: (defstruct typed-vector-fixnum (name :name :type symbol) (slot-0 0 :type fixnum) (slot-1 0 :type fixnum) (slot-2 0 :type fixnum))
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2018-01-27T01:03:10Z aeth: (defmethod print-object ((object typed-vector-fixnum) stream) (format stream "#(~A ~D ~D ~D)" (typed-vector-fixnum-name object) (typed-vector-fixnum-slot-0 object) (typed-vector-fixnum-slot-1 object) (typed-vector-fixnum-slot-2 object)))
2018-01-27T01:03:15Z aeth: (make-typed-vector-fixnum :name :hello-world)
2018-01-27T01:03:34Z aeth: pjb: Just that, with an aditional aref-like function also defined. Fairly easy to generate with macros, too. Might only be efficient for short things. ^
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2018-01-27T01:05:50Z aeth: And tvref could be defined as an inline specialization via specialization-store with the new type definition creating a new defspecialization in addition to the defstruct and the print-object.
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2018-01-27T01:15:46Z pjb: aeth: note that if you write: (defstruct (typed-vector-fixnum (:type vector))  (name :name :type symbol) (slot-0 0 :type fixnum) (slot-1 0 :type fixnum) (slot-2 0 :type fixnum)) then the structure "accessors" should still check the types, but indeed, you would need a custom aref for those vectors.
2018-01-27T01:16:28Z pjb: aeth: but for this custom aref, you will need to keep the type of each slot, unless you hardwire it in a aref specific to each structure type.
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2018-01-27T01:18:26Z aeth: pjb: specialization-store can handle the dispatch. Efficient inline dispatch if you keep the type, runtime dispatch if it's generic. I don't think specializations can handle setters, though, which would be problematic for an accessor like a fooref in specialization-store, which will probably require a getter and a setter. That may be patchable depending on the architecture, though, and a patch would probably be simpler than a new scheme wit
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2018-01-27T01:18:38Z aeth: with a fresh library
2018-01-27T01:19:20Z aeth: pjb: I think the main issue is that most of the novel things will be stored in T arrays or T cons cells or T hash-tables, which *will* lose the type information.
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2018-01-27T01:19:54Z aeth: If implementors would have to address any of that, that is what they'd have to address, not any specific data structure.
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2018-01-27T01:21:23Z aeth: T cons cells are easy to replace with typed cons cells because of their simplicity. Just do the struct approach again. Arrays and hash-tables would be trickier.
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2018-01-27T01:23:37Z aeth: As soon as you want to put this faked-via-structs typed vector into a long array (e.g. 1024 long)... I think that's where this falls apart.
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2018-01-27T02:40:48Z mitc0185: hey
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2018-01-27T02:46:54Z pjb: aeth: I don't understand this fad for specialized arrays.  Using T everywhere means that the same code is used everywhere all the time, therefore way fewer I-cache lines are needed, therefore the program runs much faster.
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2018-01-27T02:57:01Z aeth: pjb: I don't commonly write code actually inteded for T. I generally write code that either gets type inferred well or code that gets type inferred poorly and can benefit from type declarations. The latter case is generally numbers and arrays. (Type declarations or check-type in the former case would just move the type error to the top of the function instead of somewhere else, and not actually improve the compilation.)
2018-01-27T02:58:01Z aeth: (defun foo (x) (car x)) ; x is going to have to be a list or a type error, and SBCL knows this
2018-01-27T02:58:17Z aeth: s/inteded/intended/
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2018-01-27T03:06:15Z pjb: aeth: what about a cons tree? or just a cons?
2018-01-27T03:06:29Z aeth: Oh, and afaik most of the second case can probably be avoided if everything was put it one compilation-unit (e.g. one file).
2018-01-27T03:07:01Z aeth: pjb: (listp (cons 1 2)) or (typep (cons 1 2) 'list)
2018-01-27T03:07:22Z aeth: You're using the Scheme definition of a list, in CL a proper list.
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2018-01-27T03:08:37Z White_Flame: pjb: i-cache pressure would have an upper bound by type.  d-cache pressure is by footprint, which I'd think would hurt more for non-specialized
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2018-01-27T03:08:53Z White_Flame: erm, by array footprint, as well as boxing
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2018-01-27T03:10:59Z White_Flame: really, the only thing that makes sense for specialization is unboxed numeric types, IMO
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2018-01-27T03:12:08Z aeth: White_Flame: What about structs that primarily contain unboxed numeric types? They could also benefit from specialization.
2018-01-27T03:13:04Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah I guess.  As long as the types are known by whoever's accessing the array
2018-01-27T03:13:22Z aeth: Also, arrays and structs can unbox things that are normally boxed, e.g. double-float and even (unsigned-byte 64)
2018-01-27T03:13:37Z White_Flame: yeah, that's kind of the point of specialization ;)
2018-01-27T03:13:39Z aeth: So at least until we move to 68-bit CPUs, they're useful for hacks.
2018-01-27T03:14:03Z aeth: Is there any chance that Intel or AMD will make an x86-68?
2018-01-27T03:15:01Z White_Flame: Itanium68 vs amd68
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2018-01-27T04:08:46Z red-dot: Is anyone aware of CL libraries for working with Google cloud? With the exception of https://github.com/death/gcm, nothing seems to turn up in searches.
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2018-01-27T04:24:36Z p_l: red-dot: nothing available at the moment, should be quite quickly doable as they all follow REST quite well
2018-01-27T04:25:18Z red-dot: Ah, right. Thanks. REST makes it easy.
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2018-01-27T04:27:10Z red-dot: Anyone have a recommendation for a package for working with REST interfaces?
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2018-01-27T04:28:58Z p_l: not really
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2018-01-27T04:29:18Z p_l: red-dot: also, console.cloud.google.com will happily generate sample requests for you
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2018-01-27T04:32:04Z red-dot: Too bad there is no swagger description
2018-01-27T04:34:00Z red-dot: Oh, apparently there is. Now they call it "OpenAPI Specification".
2018-01-27T04:34:12Z red-dot: https://cloud.google.com/endpoints/docs/openapi/
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2018-01-27T04:34:50Z red-dot: Not sure if that is the Google APIs themselves, or client written ones.
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2018-01-27T04:41:14Z red-dot: For anyone interested in Google APIs in Swagger (Google has its own version of Swagger): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/google-apis-discovery/NdreD8_xWOk
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2018-01-27T04:48:04Z red-dot: Finally, for someone wanting to generate a client via Swagger, this seem to be the only option out there for CL: https://github.com/incjung/cl-swagger-codegen
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2018-01-27T05:32:11Z stylewarning: Open sourced MAGICL, a linear algebra library. Definitely a WIP and the high-level interface is rough around the edges. Please send improvements, PRs, issues, or design suggestions! https://github.com/rigetticomputing/magicl
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2018-01-27T05:55:39Z aeth: stylewarning: Did your team consider using :downcase help with the readability of your generated files like blas-cffi.lisp?
2018-01-27T05:56:13Z aeth: (or :invert)
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2018-01-27T06:03:47Z mitc0185: hello?
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2018-01-27T06:17:53Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day :-D
2018-01-27T06:18:16Z stylewarning: aeth I was ok making absolutely clear it was generated code
2018-01-27T06:18:21Z stylewarning: But good suggestion
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2018-01-27T06:23:46Z |3b| usually tries to make generated code look nice if possible, going to see it from M-. often enough :)
2018-01-27T06:24:19Z |3b|: sometimes with comment at the top saying it is generated so don't edit it
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2018-01-27T06:43:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-27T06:45:20Z phoe: beach: good morning!
2018-01-27T06:45:42Z phoe: Ha, I actually woke up after the night when you say "good morning".
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2018-01-27T09:17:28Z shka_: good day everyone
2018-01-27T09:17:42Z beach: Hello shka_.
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2018-01-27T09:19:45Z phoe: hey
2018-01-27T09:19:53Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2018-01-27T09:51:19Z paule32: hello
2018-01-27T09:51:28Z paule32: i can't find the error:
2018-01-27T09:51:31Z paule32: 1
2018-01-27T09:51:31Z paule32: *** - SYSTEM::%STRUCTURE-REF: 1 is not a structure of type WIRE
2018-01-27T09:51:37Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/nF1Xkq4R
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2018-01-27T09:55:01Z jackdaniel: I doubt anyone will read into this atraciously formatted code
2018-01-27T09:55:20Z beach: Certainly not me.
2018-01-27T09:59:34Z beach: Some people never learn, it seems.
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2018-01-27T10:05:20Z paule32: ok, i get it
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2018-01-27T10:08:44Z aeth: return-from?
2018-01-27T10:09:58Z aeth: return-from works in functions, apparently. And apparently this works: (defun foo () (return-from foo 42) "Hi")
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2018-01-27T10:14:50Z aeth: I wonder if *any* package in Quicklisp uses return-from to return from a function
2018-01-27T10:15:18Z Shinmera: _death: Confusing how? And yes, there's no lisp type, just a common-lisp one. I'll see about completion.
2018-01-27T10:17:03Z aeth: paule32: Use cond and and instead of two ifs and then you can get rid of the return-froms and just use the implicit return without changing really anything else in your structure.
2018-01-27T10:18:41Z aeth: each line can be one conditional. (cond ((and (= i1 0) (= i2 0)) 0) ...)
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2018-01-27T10:19:59Z Shinmera: beach: I'm more astounded that people in here don't learn that helping in this case is pointless and only increases overall suffering.
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2018-01-27T10:26:59Z stylewarning: aeth: we use RETURN-FROM quite a bit in imperative code
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2018-01-27T10:27:40Z stylewarning: aeth: it has been preferable to do things like (defun foo () (when condition (return-from foo 42)) [ ... long logic code ... ])
2018-01-27T10:28:01Z stylewarning: you could use an IF/COND but it needlessly increases the nesting depth
2018-01-27T10:28:24Z shrdlu68: paule32: Use "and" and "or" instead of chaining ifs like that.
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2018-01-27T10:29:05Z aeth: shrdlu68: This should probably be taken to #clnoobs where the exact same question was asked by paule32
2018-01-27T10:29:18Z aeth: It's a good channel for this sort of thing
2018-01-27T10:29:58Z stylewarning: aeth: is there a #python-noobs channel?
2018-01-27T10:30:10Z aeth: considering how large Python is, probably
2018-01-27T10:30:44Z stylewarning: idk, the main channel seems pretty noob friendly to me :)
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2018-01-27T10:30:52Z stylewarning: I hope we can be too.
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2018-01-27T10:31:26Z aeth: stylewarning: off topic here, but there is a ##python-friendly that is "like #python, but friendlier" according to its topic
2018-01-27T10:31:31Z stylewarning: haha
2018-01-27T10:31:47Z stylewarning: #lisp-but-not-so-curmudgeonly
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2018-01-27T10:32:09Z shrdlu68: return-from is a simple way to exit from necessarily complex functions with a given value.
2018-01-27T10:32:12Z aeth: This is an endless source of wisdom (as long as the topic of the channel is SEOed enough). http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode
2018-01-27T10:32:25Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: it can definitely be a code smell
2018-01-27T10:32:28Z beach: Shinmera: I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, assuming they haven't seen the recurring behavior.
2018-01-27T10:32:46Z Shinmera: beach: They've been in here long enough that they must have.
2018-01-27T10:32:53Z beach: Hmm.
2018-01-27T10:33:03Z aeth: Shinmera: I have seen paule32 in here once or twice before, iirc.
2018-01-27T10:33:07Z stylewarning: I wonder if I can hijack beach's compiler work to help make static analyzers for code style
2018-01-27T10:33:26Z stylewarning: something like a better lisp-critic
2018-01-27T10:33:39Z beach: Sure, that might work.
2018-01-27T10:33:41Z Shinmera: stylewarning: I wouldn't call it "hijack", I'm pretty sure such a thing is within his interests.
2018-01-27T10:33:57Z stylewarning: Shinmera: I like using edgy words.
2018-01-27T10:34:17Z stylewarning: xX_Styl3-Warn1ng_Xx, etc
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2018-01-27T10:35:36Z aeth: stylewarning: It's interesting that you use return-from heavily. I've used early return statements a lot in most other languages, but in CL.
2018-01-27T10:36:01Z aeth: I wonder what kind of code it is.
2018-01-27T10:36:26Z aeth: Do you have any examples?
2018-01-27T10:36:42Z stylewarning: aeth: Maybe "heavily" is too strong a word, but it occurs frequently enough in code that didn't manage to lend itself well to functional style
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2018-01-27T10:38:50Z Shinmera: Over (almost) all of my projects I've used return-from exactly... 50 times.
2018-01-27T10:39:02Z Shinmera: So that's extremely little.
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2018-01-27T10:39:18Z stylewarning: aeth: I'll see if I can dig up an example later, but they all fall into the category of rewriting a top-level IF/COND like (if condition <short result> <long processing code>) to (when condition (return-from ...)) <long code>
2018-01-27T10:39:41Z aeth: Shinmera: I was going to say that that's still quite a bit but then I remembered how large your Github is.
2018-01-27T10:39:50Z stylewarning: sorry, not top-level in the usual sense, but top-level in the func def
2018-01-27T10:40:10Z Shinmera: aeth: :)
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2018-01-27T10:41:05Z aeth: stylewarning: Yeah, I've seen and used that pattern in other languages, it's just that I guess idiomatic CL for some reason tends to avoid that sort of thing, at least in my CL.
2018-01-27T10:41:37Z stylewarning: aeth: it's true with my CL as well. Ideally code is refactored that you can return to expression-oriented thinking
2018-01-27T10:42:02Z aeth: Ah, good point, "expression-oriented thinking" is a nice way of putting it.
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2018-01-27T10:43:01Z aeth: And just that does wind up changing a lot of small details.
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2018-01-27T10:54:41Z borodust: Xach: in a tweet you mentioned suggestions, so... :) would be awesome if there will be a quicklisp badge that tells whether system is building or not (not unlike travis and appveyor badges)
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2018-01-27T11:00:14Z azrazalea: ls
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2018-01-27T11:05:44Z azrazalea: Ha :P, nice job me. Not a command prompt!!! Anyway: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1695720 is my .sbclrc and for some reason i'm getting https://gitlab.com/snippets/1695721 when it tries to load linedit. Is linedit broken right now or something? I checked and as far as I can tell i'm not using a local version or anything like that.
2018-01-27T11:06:06Z azrazalea: (also hi, i've been gone forever (and for the most part still am) cause life and stuff)
2018-01-27T11:07:10Z azrazalea: FWIW, i'm on the latest quicklisp dist
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2018-01-27T11:12:34Z paule32: aeth: i get it
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2018-01-27T11:13:57Z borodust: wb azrazalea
2018-01-27T11:14:16Z spacebat1 is now known as sbat
2018-01-27T11:15:11Z stylewarning: man oh man, old lisp code from ca. 1980s is so terrible. Half the files are custom load scripts
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2018-01-27T11:16:15Z azrazalea: borodust: Thanks <3. I'll probably dissapear again for a bit. I _do_ plan on being around again once my life settles.
2018-01-27T11:16:29Z stylewarning: (before people jump on me for making a bold, offensive claim, i don't mean all code from the 80s is terrible and the state of affairs was any better in any other language)
2018-01-27T11:16:52Z azrazalea: Still got a game to right after all :)
2018-01-27T11:16:55Z azrazalea: write*
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2018-01-27T11:19:21Z azrazalea: Though, my next lisp will be a slackbot
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2018-01-27T12:07:24Z Xach: borodust: where to put this badge? like make a png and host it to include in readme.md or something?
2018-01-27T12:07:38Z Xach likes this idea
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2018-01-27T12:08:35Z Xach: stylewarning: i haven't spelunked *too* much, but the custom load scripts i saw were usually pretty simple. like, a list of files to load in a loop.
2018-01-27T12:08:38Z Shinmera: Yeah that's the idea
2018-01-27T12:09:12Z Xach: I don't have a good way to link to the latest status, though.
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2018-01-27T12:26:51Z Xach: hmm
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2018-01-27T12:28:24Z Shinmera: Would need a redirect thing that goes to the latest page.
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2018-01-27T12:28:36Z borodust: Xach: yeah, like return different png/svg by the same url depending on the build status
2018-01-27T12:29:14Z borodust: Xach: like those on top of readme here: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-chipmunk/blob/master/README.md
2018-01-27T12:29:53Z borodust: url is always the same but services return different images depending on the build status
2018-01-27T12:30:22Z Shinmera: borodust: Usually you want to have a link to the respective project's page as well
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2018-01-27T12:30:38Z Shinmera: so you do need a page that can redirect to the latest report
2018-01-27T12:31:07Z borodust: Shinmera: that would be awesome too
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2018-01-27T12:31:45Z borodust: but at least having a status is already very nice!
2018-01-27T12:32:15Z Xach: I'll look into S3 redirects. Maybe they're more straightforward than I remember
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2018-01-27T12:32:50Z shrdlu68: I'm not sure, reading the clhs page on order of execution (loop macro) whether a while clause in the middle of for clauses is executed after the for clauses before it and before the for clauses after it.
2018-01-27T12:33:18Z shrdlu68: clhs 6.1.1.6
2018-01-27T12:33:18Z specbot: Order of Execution: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aaf.htm
2018-01-27T12:33:45Z beach: They are executed in the order they appear.
2018-01-27T12:34:13Z shrdlu68: Great! Thanks beach
2018-01-27T12:34:17Z ebrasca: Hi
2018-01-27T12:34:29Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2018-01-27T12:34:54Z shrdlu68: ebrasca: Good afternoon!
2018-01-27T12:35:25Z beach: shrdlu68: The WHILE clause should be seen as a terminate-if-false.
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2018-01-27T13:22:31Z stylewarning: I’m really interested in having a statically typed eDSL in Lisp
2018-01-27T13:24:00Z stylewarning: I wonder if there’s an expedient way to compile something like Standard ML into Lisp with existing implementations.
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2018-01-27T13:26:41Z scymtym: stylewarning: you may be interested in http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/stchang/pubs/ckg-popl2017.pdf
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2018-01-27T13:47:29Z phoe: Can I have two separate inspectors in slime?
2018-01-27T13:47:49Z phoe: I want to inspect two different objects at a time. I can work around it by opening a second emacs, but I don't want to overkill.
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2018-01-27T14:31:36Z megachombass: pjb: you there?
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2018-01-27T14:50:53Z phoe: megachombass: feel free to post your questions publicly
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2018-01-27T14:51:10Z beach: phoe: You don't understand what you are asking.
2018-01-27T14:51:38Z pjb: That's because irc is like google's mapreduce: you ask one question, you get a hundred of answers, and you have to reduce it to a single meaningful information.
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2018-01-27T14:53:31Z pjb: megachombass: I'm here!
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2018-01-27T14:55:10Z pjb: megachombass: To see if pjb is here, you can use the command:  /whois pjb
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2018-01-27T15:03:13Z megachombass: i was trying to implement what you told me yestarday
2018-01-27T15:03:14Z jmercouris: beach: lol :D
2018-01-27T15:03:16Z megachombass: but got some troubles
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2018-01-27T15:03:47Z pjb: troubles occur.
2018-01-27T15:04:14Z jmercouris: I find it best to usually just describe the problem instead of just mentioning it :P
2018-01-27T15:06:57Z pjb: It's a rare occurence, when somebody asks a question on irc without having some troubles…
2018-01-27T15:07:11Z megachombass: meh, i think i will just not send this VM and fk this ill have a 0
2018-01-27T15:07:27Z megachombass: on the state this is, he gonna notice is copy pasta and i risk way more than a 0
2018-01-27T15:07:40Z pjb: megachombass: it's the week end, our telepathic powers are low.
2018-01-27T15:08:12Z jmercouris: megachombass: I have literally no idea what it is you are trying to say
2018-01-27T15:08:26Z phoe: megachombass: post your problem instead of complaining about it. this way we might actually be able to help you.
2018-01-27T15:08:45Z jmercouris: phoe: I think beach was right
2018-01-27T15:08:48Z pjb: If you asked a question about your troubbles, we could help, but just stating trivia won't.
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2018-01-27T15:08:57Z pjb: beach's always right.
2018-01-27T15:09:05Z beach: Heh.
2018-01-27T15:09:06Z phoe: jmercouris: I am slowly starting to think the same.
2018-01-27T15:09:07Z jmercouris: except for when he's wrong :P
2018-01-27T15:09:20Z drdo: I too have troubles
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2018-01-27T15:09:32Z jmercouris: Don't we all have our own troubles in one way or another?
2018-01-27T15:09:41Z pjb: drdo: I once wrote the specifications for a drdo.
2018-01-27T15:09:49Z megachombass: i think that i didnt refactor the code enough of this lisp VM for the teacher dont notice is copy pasta from somewhere else
2018-01-27T15:10:02Z drdo: pjb: There's more of me? I must meet them at once!
2018-01-27T15:10:05Z jmercouris: megachombass: I think you should drop the class
2018-01-27T15:10:31Z megachombass: im alone on this project, and i doubt that in the 30h left i have, i can code something correct
2018-01-27T15:10:35Z jmercouris: If your solution to passing an assignment is refactoring it until it is no longer recognizable as palgueraized (sp?), then you should drop the class
2018-01-27T15:10:56Z megachombass: sadly if i dropp that class, i have to drop university
2018-01-27T15:11:05Z megachombass: and more i look at it, more i think its going to be the case
2018-01-27T15:11:12Z pjb: drdo: sorry, indeed, it was MrDo, not DrDo. https://pausescreen.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/mr-do-snes.jpg
2018-01-27T15:11:22Z pjb: drdo: uniqueness restored.
2018-01-27T15:11:33Z jmercouris: That's unfortunate, post your issue, and assignment, what you've done so far, and let's see if we can help you get through it
2018-01-27T15:11:50Z jmercouris: We won't give you the answers per se, at least I won't, but I will try to guide you through it
2018-01-27T15:12:01Z pjb: megachombass: don't be too pessimistic.
2018-01-27T15:12:13Z pjb: megachombass: did you try to introduce abstractions as I explained?
2018-01-27T15:12:29Z megachombass: ive tried a bit, sadly i run into issues in implementing it
2018-01-27T15:12:57Z pjb: If you asked about those issues, we could help, but you keep talking about irrelevant things, like troubles and university dropping.
2018-01-27T15:13:06Z pjb: This is #lisp, not #university-life
2018-01-27T15:13:22Z megachombass: if you're up to follow step by step how im trying to implement it, then there is still a chance
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2018-01-27T15:15:02Z pjb: megachombass: also, what I forgot to mention, is that when you build abstrations, you can test them independently from the rest of the program. So you can test it incrementaly, module by module.
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2018-01-27T15:16:02Z megachombass: then lets try it module by module. starting by the choice of the structure. i like the defstruct
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2018-01-27T15:16:57Z megachombass: most likely because its sounds like C
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2018-01-27T15:19:48Z pjb: Great.
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2018-01-27T15:20:19Z pjb: Do you have tests?
2018-01-27T15:21:14Z pjb: If you modify your program, how do you ensure it still works?
2018-01-27T15:22:18Z jmercouris: pjb: Tests are for the weak
2018-01-27T15:22:44Z jmercouris: in case it isn't clear to everyone, I am joking
2018-01-27T15:22:46Z Bike: though it is off topic, your class seems to have entirely failed to prepare you for this assignment. assuming others are having problems, you should probably complain.
2018-01-27T15:23:09Z pjb: Strong AI says: yes.
2018-01-27T15:23:13Z jmercouris: Bike: Unless of course they didn't attend the class or pay attention
2018-01-27T15:23:21Z Bike: i'm being charitable.
2018-01-27T15:23:42Z pjb: Well, we see only one asking about this project, so…
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2018-01-27T15:28:23Z megachombass: i did attend to that class, as i do with every other class and i do pay attention, simply this is way to hard with the few instructions he gave in class
2018-01-27T15:28:25Z megachombass: so
2018-01-27T15:28:27Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-27T15:28:39Z megachombass: ive created a VM struct.
2018-01-27T15:29:04Z megachombass: btw this site codeshare.io is great as everyone with the link can interact with the code in real time
2018-01-27T15:29:40Z beach: *sigh*
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2018-01-27T15:30:30Z jmercouris: So, I have some strange issues with read-line, sometimes when I type backspace in a terminal after invoking read-line, it will print characters "rubout" instead of actually deleting the previous character
2018-01-27T15:30:32Z jmercouris: why is that?
2018-01-27T15:31:07Z beach: Maybe you need to use DEL instead of backspace.
2018-01-27T15:31:26Z jmercouris: I should clarify that I am on a mac, and I don't actually have a backspace key
2018-01-27T15:31:30Z jmercouris: it says "delete"
2018-01-27T15:31:35Z jmercouris: but not in the sense that it deletes forward
2018-01-27T15:31:39Z dim: CL-USER> (with-open-file (s "/Users/dim/dev/temp/pgloader-issues/733/asist.tiplis.csv" :direction :input :element-type 'character :external-format :utf-8) (format nil "~{~x~^ ~}" (mapcar #'char-code (list (read-char s) (read-char s) (read-char s) (read-char s))))) gives me "FEFF 31 3B 27"
2018-01-27T15:31:50Z dim: you might recon the UTF-8 BOM, as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark#UTF-8
2018-01-27T15:32:01Z dim: what's the canonical way to deal with that in CL?
2018-01-27T15:32:24Z dim: Note: The UTF-8 representation of the BOM is the (hexadecimal) byte sequence 0xEF,0xBB,0xBF. A text editor or web browser misinterpreting the text as ISO-8859-1 or CP1252 will display the characters  for this.
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2018-01-27T15:34:43Z megachombass: and for testing if my code still works.... one sec i create a test at the end of the file.
2018-01-27T15:34:48Z dim: using (format nil "~{~x~^ ~}" (list (read-byte s) (read-byte s) (read-byte s))) shows "EF BB BF", more to the point maybe
2018-01-27T15:35:06Z dim: (with opening the file with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2018-01-27T15:36:42Z dim: my understanding is that it would be safe to always ignore the sequence #xef #xbb #xbf at the beginning of an UTF-8 encoded file... but well... here be dragons?
2018-01-27T15:37:03Z jmercouris: megachombass: this is some of the strangest looking lisp i've seen with hanging indent parens
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2018-01-27T15:37:33Z megachombass: added a fibo test at the end of the file.
2018-01-27T15:37:51Z megachombass: jmercouris: i used emacs to indent! ive learnt that lesson :P
2018-01-27T15:38:29Z jmercouris: does this have to be in Lisp? or did you choose lisp? if it doesn't have to be in lisp, why don't you write it in a language you know?
2018-01-27T15:38:47Z megachombass: be sure i would've never chosen a language i dont know to make this
2018-01-27T15:38:52Z megachombass: it have to be in lisp
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2018-01-27T15:41:29Z megachombass: if it was in c, python java or anything i know, i would've created my own vm from scratch and ispire myself on existing VM's. but in lisp im forced to copy pasta an existing one, and even to modify it its a pain for me
2018-01-27T15:41:51Z pjb: jmercouris: in the preferences of the terminal, in the Advanced tab, you have a checkbox "Delete sends Control-H"  this checkbox must be in accord with stty erase.
2018-01-27T15:41:56Z Bike: did your class teach you lisp, at all?
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2018-01-27T15:42:28Z jmercouris: pjb: It only occurs in ansi-term in emacs, so far on #emacs, the best help I've gotten was "lololol"
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2018-01-27T15:42:35Z pjb: jmercouris: if you don't check "Delete sends Control-H", then you should stty erase ^?
2018-01-27T15:42:38Z pjb: jmercouris: if you check "Delete sends Control-H", then you should stty erase ^H
2018-01-27T15:43:04Z pjb: jmercouris: Now what occurs in emacs, remains in emacs.
2018-01-27T15:43:31Z pjb: jmercouris: but this is the same principle. What does ansi-term in emacs send when you press DEL? What is stty erase configured to?
2018-01-27T15:43:45Z jmercouris: Not sure, let me investigate
2018-01-27T15:43:55Z pjb: jmercouris: do you run emacs in a terminal?
2018-01-27T15:44:04Z jmercouris: no, I run GUI emacs
2018-01-27T15:44:07Z pjb: ok.
2018-01-27T15:45:13Z pjb: megachombass: the point of the exercise, is to make you write lisp from scratch!  How would you learn lisp otherwise?
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2018-01-27T15:47:03Z megachombass: pjb: with examples
2018-01-27T15:47:47Z pjb: megachombass: then you only learn to read, not to write.
2018-01-27T15:48:45Z megachombass: added the instructions to see if the test works
2018-01-27T15:48:47Z Bike: eh. writing a vm in an unfamiliar language with, apparently, zero support, is a bit much. maybe you could ask your classmates what resources they used.
2018-01-27T15:50:06Z megachombass: if you think classmates are gonna share something haha
2018-01-27T15:50:18Z megachombass: well, so after the struc is created
2018-01-27T15:50:23Z megachombass: i read the pastebin you wrote yesterday
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2018-01-27T15:51:35Z megachombass: pjb: (defun vm-R0     (VM) (get VM :R0)) will not work with a struct i guess
2018-01-27T15:51:38Z Bike: uh, yeah, i do think that?
2018-01-27T15:51:56Z jmercouris: My classmates were always really helpful
2018-01-27T15:52:15Z megachombass: we were 3  classmates on this project, other 2 literally left me alone coz they abandonated
2018-01-27T15:52:16Z jmercouris: Maybe I got lucky, but I think that generally people in this world are good, if not at least neutral
2018-01-27T15:52:24Z megachombass: i will try my best to have atleast something to present
2018-01-27T15:52:33Z pjb: megachombass: the defstruct will define a function named vm-r0 already.
2018-01-27T15:52:41Z jmercouris: Should your teacher not take into account that the other 2 have dropped out?
2018-01-27T15:52:43Z Bike: i'm just saying, you have no idea what you're doing. you've stated as much. you were not prepared. either your class is doing poorly in general because of poor instruction, or you weren't paying attention. in the former case, you need to talk to the department.
2018-01-27T15:53:04Z pjb: megachombass: try: (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (pprint (macroexpand '(defstruct vm r0 r1 r2 r3 pc sp fp))))
2018-01-27T15:53:28Z jmercouris: I'm almost of the opinion that you should not attempt to complete the project and instead focus on getting an extension, or going through the appropriate channels as Bike suggested
2018-01-27T15:53:45Z Shinmera: jmercouris: This already is the extension
2018-01-27T15:54:17Z jmercouris: Well then, hindsight is 20/20 I guess
2018-01-27T15:54:21Z pjb: It is assumed that students at university level be autonomous.   Basically, teachers say: learn this. and the student go and learn this.
2018-01-27T15:55:04Z pjb: Foremost, when they already know 4 other this that are like it, and when there are a lot of resources on the internet and in libraries about it, and when learning this mainly involves writing programs in this language…
2018-01-27T15:55:23Z jmercouris: pjb: I guess this is probably true in France, and the comments are in French, so I assume this student is also French, so you're probably right, in the US it is a different story
2018-01-27T15:55:36Z jmercouris: in the US we pay a lot of money for education, and we expect that the teachers teach
2018-01-27T15:55:39Z pjb: There's no need for a boring teacher reading the tutorial aloud. You can use your TextToSpeak app for that.
2018-01-27T15:56:18Z megachombass: in france university is free, and i guess thats why teachers dont give a fk
2018-01-27T15:56:19Z pjb: On the other hand, if the student doesn't start early, he cannot come to the teacher with his questions soon enough.
2018-01-27T15:56:54Z megachombass: well, pprint prints alot of stuff, but i guess nothing interesting as ive not set values to it
2018-01-27T15:57:19Z pjb: megachombass: in that you should see a defun vm-r0
2018-01-27T15:57:32Z megachombass: let me see
2018-01-27T15:57:54Z megachombass: yes, it has created some defun
2018-01-27T15:58:09Z megachombass: so this has autogenerated ascessors for that struct right?
2018-01-27T15:58:20Z pjb: therefore you can remove the old vm-r0 from your sources.  And all the similar function that have been generated by the defstruct macro.
2018-01-27T15:58:23Z pjb: Yes.
2018-01-27T15:59:01Z megachombass: but, the functions are not generated in my sources?
2018-01-27T15:59:16Z pjb: If you put the defstruct in your sources, yes they will be.
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2018-01-27T16:00:12Z megachombass: well, i have put the defstruct in my source, and the soruce is still the same
2018-01-27T16:00:13Z pjb: So, in lisp, defstruct does more than a C struct. In C, it only declares a type. In Common Lisp, it also defines utility functions: a constructor, a copier, accessors, a serializer and deserializer.
2018-01-27T16:00:16Z megachombass: even after load
2018-01-27T16:00:20Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-27T16:00:31Z pjb: Just put the defstruct at the beginning of your file.
2018-01-27T16:01:25Z megachombass: with the (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (pprint (macroexpand '(defstruct vm r0 r1 r2 r3 pc sp fp)))) ? or that is just for me to se in lisp interpreter whats going on?
2018-01-27T16:01:38Z pjb: the later.
2018-01-27T16:01:59Z megachombass: okey so i just put defstruct and load the file, and it should add functions to my source
2018-01-27T16:02:00Z megachombass: lets ee
2018-01-27T16:02:03Z megachombass: see*
2018-01-27T16:02:20Z pjb: but erase the old functions such as vm-r0, otherwise they will override the one defined by the defstruct.
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2018-01-27T16:04:16Z megachombass: i dont have any vm-r0. what is the equivalent in my code?
2018-01-27T16:04:57Z pjb: If you don't have it, then it's good.
2018-01-27T16:05:17Z pjb: Now you need to replace the occurences of (get vm :foo) by (vm-foo vm)
2018-01-27T16:05:33Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA <== all changes i apply on my sourcecode are updated there
2018-01-27T16:05:52Z megachombass: ive added the struct def and the start of my file, loaded file, still everything the same on source
2018-01-27T16:06:20Z pjb: DeuxiemeElement is not an abstraction. There is already first, second, third, … tenth in CL.
2018-01-27T16:06:55Z pjb: Replace  (get VM :PC) by (vm-pc vm) everywhere. And similarly for all the (get VM …)
2018-01-27T16:07:45Z megachombass: okey one sec
2018-01-27T16:08:05Z pjb: An instruction is not composed of elements.  It's composed of an operand, an argument and a second argument.
2018-01-27T16:08:31Z beach: I hope this assignment is due soon.
2018-01-27T16:08:36Z pjb: Elements are what are in list, and Lisp, being a List Processing language, already provide functions to operate on lists such as first rest member second third etc.
2018-01-27T16:08:46Z pjb: beach: -29 hours.
2018-01-27T16:09:05Z megachombass: i have untill tomorrow midnight
2018-01-27T16:09:17Z megachombass: well give me a sec to apply the changes
2018-01-27T16:09:58Z pjb: Clearly, it was intended for you to learn lisp and program the assignment during the Christmas holidays.
2018-01-27T16:11:33Z megachombass: yes, but it wasnt the only assignement
2018-01-27T16:11:39Z megachombass: knowing all exams were past week
2018-01-27T16:11:50Z megachombass: i will pass everything but this nightmare
2018-01-27T16:13:11Z megachombass: hum
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2018-01-27T16:16:01Z beach: I don't believe the story about not being taught the language for a second.
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2018-01-27T16:16:36Z jackdaniel: weaseling from assignments isn't a noble thing to do ,) especially that it misses the point
2018-01-27T16:16:55Z jackdaniel: assignments are not something to be finished but rather a mean to a goal of understanding something
2018-01-27T16:17:02Z shrdlu68: Those of us who didn't learn to code in class look on in bewilderment.
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2018-01-27T16:20:53Z shrdlu68: Back in school I used to hate the exam season because it meant I could code less. Also because the libraries, usually serene hide-outs, would see a sudden surge in visitors.
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2018-01-27T16:24:08Z jackdaniel: on the other hand being honest that it is an assignment is much better than trying to lie that it is not
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2018-01-27T16:31:34Z megachombass: by remplacing
2018-01-27T16:31:38Z megachombass: seems this gives problems
2018-01-27T16:31:40Z megachombass: (defun make-vm (&optional (vm 'vm) (tmem 10000))   ;;ca initialise les "variables"   (setf (vm-vm) vm)
2018-01-27T16:31:56Z megachombass: it says *** - EVAL/APPLY: Too few arguments (1 instead of at least 2) given to (SETF VM-VM)
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2018-01-27T16:32:15Z megachombass: (defun make-vm (&optional (vm 'vm) (tmem 10000))  (setf (vm-vm) vm))
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2018-01-27T16:33:59Z megachombass: let me update the state of the code
2018-01-27T16:34:31Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
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2018-01-27T16:35:00Z megachombass: if i execute (test 'test') it fks up there
2018-01-27T16:36:36Z megachombass:  (test 'test)
2018-01-27T16:36:37Z pjb: megachombass: defstruct also creates a make-vm function.
2018-01-27T16:36:42Z pjb: Try it!
2018-01-27T16:37:13Z megachombass: the thing is i still dont see the functions created as you said
2018-01-27T16:37:21Z megachombass: check the code, thats how my source is
2018-01-27T16:38:14Z pjb: (vm-SP) must be written (vm-SP vm), and (setf (vm-SP vm) (+ (vm-SP vm) 1)) can be written (incf (vm-sp vm))
2018-01-27T16:38:22Z pjb: megachombass: it's in the macroexpansion!
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2018-01-27T16:39:02Z megachombass: oh so the functions are created but i can only see them by printing right?
2018-01-27T16:40:03Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-27T16:41:03Z megachombass: then i could wait for years
2018-01-27T16:41:24Z megachombass: well, let me rechange all the  (vm-SP) by (vm-SP vm) see if it works
2018-01-27T16:41:45Z pjb: For the simple fields, you can give an initial value in the defstruct form.
2018-01-27T16:42:03Z pjb: For fields needing more complex initialization, you can wrap another constructor: https://codeshare.io/2pzoLX
2018-01-27T16:42:19Z pjb: There are other ways to do it, but for now this will do.
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2018-01-27T16:44:44Z pjb: megachombass: merge resetmemory with make-vm-with-memory-size: https://codeshare.io/2pzoLX
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2018-01-27T16:47:10Z pjb: Then: (make-vm-with-memory-size 100) --> #S(vm :r0 0 :r1 0 :r2 0 :r3 0 :pc 99 :lc 99 :sp 100 :fp 0 :dpp 0 :de 0 :dpg 0 :taille 100 :memtab #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) :etiq #<hash-table :test eql size 0/107 #x302005C1DC9D> :etiqnr #<hash-table :test eql size 
2018-01-27T16:47:10Z pjb: #x302005C1D2FD>)
2018-01-27T16:47:10Z pjb:  
2018-01-27T16:48:05Z pjb: What prints #S(vm …) is the "serializer", the printer function that is defined by defstruct for the structure. This syntax can be read back. (But #< cannot, so you would have to use #.(make-hash-table) instead.
2018-01-27T16:48:35Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-27T16:48:54Z pjb: You need to update the code using make-vm, of course. For example: https://codeshare.io/2pzoLX
2018-01-27T16:50:04Z megachombass: but this suposes that i cant have only 1 vm running
2018-01-27T16:50:16Z megachombass: as you dont name it as a parameter in the new make-vm function
2018-01-27T16:50:42Z pjb: (list  (make-vm-with-memory-size 4) (make-vm-with-memory-size 10)) #| --> (#S(vm :r0 0 :r1 0 :r2 0 :r3 0 :pc 3 :lc 3 :sp 100 :fp 0 :dpp 0 :de 0 :dpg 0 :taille 4 :memtab #(0 0 0 0) :etiq #<hash-table :test eql size 0/31 #x302005C7E56D> :etiqnr #<hash-table :test eql size 1/31 #x302005C7E16D>) #S(vm :r0 0 :r1 0 :r2 0 :r3 0 :pc 9 :lc 9 :sp 100 :fp 0 :dpp 0 :de 0 :dpg 0 :taille 10 :memtab #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) :etiq #<hash-table :tes
2018-01-27T16:50:42Z pjb: size 0/31 #x302005C7DC5D> :etiqnr #<hash-table :test eql size 1/31 #x302005C7D85D>)) |#
2018-01-27T16:50:48Z pjb: You can have as many VM as you want.
2018-01-27T16:50:56Z pjb: Just call make-vm-with-memory-size again.
2018-01-27T16:51:22Z pjb: make-vm is a constructor, it returns a new VM each time it's called.
2018-01-27T16:51:25Z pjb: make-vm-with-memory-size too.
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2018-01-27T16:52:24Z megachombass: oh, indeed
2018-01-27T16:52:33Z megachombass: let me a couple minutes to assimilate what you've wrrient
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2018-01-27T16:52:38Z megachombass: written*
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2018-01-27T16:53:04Z pjb: If you wanted to simulate a multi-processor system, you could even create multiple VM with the same memory! :-)
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2018-01-27T16:54:04Z pjb: megachombass: notice that the vm-taille field is useless, since (vm-taille vm) == (length (vm-memtab vm))
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2018-01-27T16:54:48Z pjb: If you need to use it, you can (defun vm-taille (vm) (length (vm-memtab vm))) and remove it from the field. This way you would ensure that it is always automatically the right value.
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2018-01-27T16:58:41Z megachombass: EVAL/APPLY: Trop d'arguments pour MAKE-VM.
2018-01-27T16:58:56Z megachombass: as you calling make-vm in your make-vm-with size it fks up there
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2018-01-27T17:01:21Z megachombass: but why call make-vm in make-vm-with size if the VM have already default values when creating the struct?
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2018-01-27T17:07:22Z megachombass: pjb: also, you're not resetting the memory of the vm in this function
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2018-01-27T17:15:21Z megachombass: pjb: hit me up when you're back, since ive literally fked up my source code and cant manage to make coexist your make-vm-with-memory-size with the rest of the code
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2018-01-27T17:30:06Z flip214: does CL-SQL include some function that, given the database structure and two tables A and B, gives a query relating both, even across multiple joins?
2018-01-27T17:30:33Z flip214: I'm aware that such a join might be possible across multiple ways, so returning a list of queries would be okay, too.
2018-01-27T17:31:09Z flip214: The usecase is for some generic web frontend - given a user, show the records that may be accessed (by relations to the user record)
2018-01-27T17:32:19Z flip214: So I guess this would be using CLOS/MOP (or the SQL structure directly)
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2018-01-27T17:36:10Z ghast: hello. sbcl question. is it okay to do (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "core") a proper way to get a core file for SBCL ? it seems to fail after loading cl-json into the image
2018-01-27T17:36:23Z phoe: ghast: how does it fail?
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2018-01-27T17:37:23Z ghast: where can i paste the output ?
2018-01-27T17:37:36Z flip214: http://quickdocs.org/clsql-orm/ is the sentence "Of course, database-type has to be :postgresql." still true, or are other DBs supported as well?
2018-01-27T17:37:48Z flip214: ghast: paste.net, pastebin.com, etc.
2018-01-27T17:39:31Z ghast: https://pastebin.com/hvgkJ4W4
2018-01-27T17:40:16Z phoe: flip214: a brief look at the source states that there is code for handling several databases
2018-01-27T17:41:05Z flip214: phoe: thanks, I found a clsql-mysql-introspect, too... I'd need something for Oracle, though.
2018-01-27T17:41:13Z flip214: ghast: which SBCL version?
2018-01-27T17:41:26Z ghast: SBCL 1.3.12
2018-01-27T17:42:00Z phoe: ghast: show us a backtrace
2018-01-27T17:42:03Z flip214: hmmm... can you do an upgrade? that's a bit old already, not sure whether someone has that version around to do investigations
2018-01-27T17:42:05Z phoe: and also update to a newer SBCL
2018-01-27T17:42:11Z ghast: how can i give you a backtrace ?
2018-01-27T17:42:37Z phoe: in SBCL error prompt, type BACKTRACE
2018-01-27T17:42:50Z paule32: hello
2018-01-27T17:42:52Z phoe: the debugger should give you a backtrace.
2018-01-27T17:43:20Z paule32: is it possible to make names at runtime?
2018-01-27T17:43:41Z paule32: like: (alias (dotimes (n 11) (gate-and-n)) gate-and)
2018-01-27T17:44:04Z phoe: paule32: I suggest you go to #clnoobs.
2018-01-27T17:44:47Z _death: Shinmera: in elisp an optional parameter cannot take a default value in the arglist
2018-01-27T17:45:25Z pjb: megachombass: EVAL/APPLY: Trop d'arguments pour MAKE-VM. probably comes from the fact that you overrode the make-vm function defined by defstruct!
2018-01-27T17:45:25Z ghast: https://pastebin.com/HVq30F9g
2018-01-27T17:46:07Z phoe: ghast: this is an error in SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE, seems like something very internal to SBCL.
2018-01-27T17:46:10Z phoe: Update, and try again.
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2018-01-27T17:46:59Z ghast: mmmh, i see. obscure stuff right ?
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2018-01-27T17:47:08Z phoe: ghast: I have no idea.
2018-01-27T17:47:14Z phoe: If it's a bug in SBCL, then it might already have been fixed.
2018-01-27T17:47:23Z phoe: Therefore, update first, and if it still fails, file a bug ticket on SBCL.
2018-01-27T17:47:59Z megachombass: pjb: yes, i noticed i didnt errase my make-vm. now the thing is, it cant make the hashtables as its says etiq and etiqnr are not symbols:   :ETIQ #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL) :ETIQNR #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (NB . 0)))       is not a symbol
2018-01-27T17:48:53Z ghast: some weird combination of using cl-json before dumping the image just makes my sbcl go mad. i'll try updating sbcl later and see what happens
2018-01-27T17:49:03Z ghast: perhaps that might fix it. (i hope).
2018-01-27T17:49:07Z phoe: ghast: let's hope so.
2018-01-27T17:49:12Z phoe: if it doesn't, then file a bug ticket.
2018-01-27T17:49:24Z phoe: or rather, ask on #sbcl first.
2018-01-27T17:49:25Z pjb: megachombass: the reason why call make-vm in make-vm-with-memory-size is to allocate the memtab abd the hash-tables.  You're right that this can be avoided, but as I said, it would require more sophisticated lisping such as https://codeshare.io/2pzoLX ; but since you're a newbie, I wanted to preset the simplier code.
2018-01-27T17:49:29Z phoe: then file a bug ticket.
2018-01-27T17:50:01Z pjb: megachombass: with that new defstruct, you don't need make-vm-with-memory-size, and instead, you can call (make-vm) for a default size of 1000 or (make-vm 10000) to specify the size.
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2018-01-27T17:50:19Z ghast: phoe: ok, thanks bro!
2018-01-27T17:50:19Z megachombass: let me see
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2018-01-27T17:50:45Z _death: ghast: what is your sbcl version
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2018-01-27T17:51:51Z pjb: megachombass: when you have errors saying that a list is not a symbol, it probably comes from an error in the parentheses.
2018-01-27T17:52:24Z _death: ghast: ah, you already mentioned.. an ancient version
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2018-01-27T17:54:29Z pjb: megachombass: in emacs, you can type C-M-< M-x replace-regexp (get vm :\([a-z0-9]*\)) RET (vm-\1 vm) RET to replace the old calls to the new calls.
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2018-01-27T17:55:15Z megachombass: y pretty sure it was a fail with one of my remplacements
2018-01-27T17:55:20Z megachombass: im going to start over again
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2018-01-27T17:59:54Z megachombass: says me C-M-< is undefined
2018-01-27T18:00:16Z ghast: ok, it works in the new version :). [solved]
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2018-01-27T18:02:43Z zazzerino: megachombass: try shift+alt+< then M-x replace-regexp ...
2018-01-27T18:05:03Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-01-27T18:05:35Z zazzerino: or actually, C-x h would be better
2018-01-27T18:06:09Z zazzerino: it should select the entire buffer, then you can run M-x replace-regexp ... on the selected region
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2018-01-27T18:07:22Z megachombass: ok so i try again
2018-01-27T18:07:33Z megachombass: i select the whole buffer
2018-01-27T18:07:36Z pjb: megachombass: https://codeshare.io/2pzoLX
2018-01-27T18:08:00Z pjb: You need to replace the last (get vm …) which  are used to get and set slots by name.
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2018-01-27T18:08:26Z pjb: cf. the property and (setf property) functions.
2018-01-27T18:09:15Z pjb: megachombass: when you launch emacs, it tells you to read the tutorial by typing Control-h t.  In the tutorial, you will learn what C-M-< means.
2018-01-27T18:09:44Z megachombass: c-m-< is control+alt+< ?
2018-01-27T18:10:19Z pjb: No, not on my keyboard.
2018-01-27T18:10:29Z pjb: My keyboard distinguishes Meta- from Alt-.
2018-01-27T18:10:57Z pjb: In emacs, key chords are given symbolically, because the actual mapping vary and is configurable.
2018-01-27T18:11:26Z pjb: For example, you could have to type Escape, Control-Shift-comma   for C-M-<
2018-01-27T18:12:13Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-27T18:12:29Z pjb: The truth is that is the command: beginning-of-buffer  You can run this command by typing: M-x beginning-of-buffer RET
2018-01-27T18:12:36Z megachombass: well alt+x opens the command
2018-01-27T18:12:43Z pjb: then emacs would tell you what keychord could be used (in the minibuffer).
2018-01-27T18:12:45Z megachombass: there i can type replace-regexp
2018-01-27T18:12:58Z megachombass: then i guess i can put (get vm :\([a-z0-9]*\)) RET (vm-\1 vm)
2018-01-27T18:12:59Z pjb: you can also ask it with C-h w
2018-01-27T18:13:18Z pjb: C-h w beginning-of-buffer RET    or read the whole documentation with  C-h f beginning-of-buffer RET
2018-01-27T18:13:32Z pjb: yes
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2018-01-27T18:15:37Z megachombass: http://prntscr.com/i6f42q
2018-01-27T18:15:51Z megachombass: seems he wants to replace  (get vm :\([a-z0-9]*\)) RET (vm-\1 vm) RET with something
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2018-01-27T18:16:30Z pjb: megachombass: what the tutorial told you about "RET" ?
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2018-01-27T18:18:48Z megachombass: i cant even open the tutorial jesus
2018-01-27T18:18:52Z megachombass: wait a sec i reopen everything
2018-01-27T18:19:09Z megachombass: as C+g doesnt put me back on my code
2018-01-27T18:19:24Z zazzerino: pjb: you are truly a saint
2018-01-27T18:19:43Z pjb: megachombass: I said: Control-h t
2018-01-27T18:20:11Z megachombass: it opens me the todolist
2018-01-27T18:21:44Z megachombass: i guess the todo list isnt the tutorial
2018-01-27T18:22:07Z pjb: It should open the tutorial.
2018-01-27T18:22:32Z pjb: instead you can type: M-x emacs-tutorial RET
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2018-01-27T18:23:12Z megachombass: and thing is this todo list overrides my source code, and dont know how to go backwards
2018-01-27T18:23:30Z pjb: Well, RET is not mentionned in the tutorial apparently.
2018-01-27T18:23:42Z pjb: It means: "press the Return key".
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2018-01-27T18:24:29Z megachombass: oh
2018-01-27T18:24:30Z megachombass: so
2018-01-27T18:24:31Z pjb: megachombass: you can manipulate windows with C-x 1, C-x 2, C-x 3, C-x 0, C-x o and C-x B  and C-x b
2018-01-27T18:24:56Z pjb: C-u C-x C-o is also useful when you have more than 2 windows open.
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2018-01-27T18:27:27Z megachombass: so
2018-01-27T18:27:39Z megachombass: i select everything with C-x h
2018-01-27T18:27:58Z megachombass: open command line with M-x
2018-01-27T18:28:05Z megachombass: i type replace regex
2018-01-27T18:28:05Z megachombass: done
2018-01-27T18:28:13Z megachombass: it ask me what i want to replace
2018-01-27T18:28:27Z megachombass:  i type in (get vm :\([a-z0-9]*\))
2018-01-27T18:28:33Z megachombass: but if i press return
2018-01-27T18:28:40Z megachombass: obviousy it deletes my last character
2018-01-27T18:28:51Z megachombass: i doubt that's what i want to do
2018-01-27T18:30:23Z pjb: Then it asks for the replacement.
2018-01-27T18:30:28Z pjb: (vm-\1 vm)
2018-01-27T18:31:10Z megachombass: nvm
2018-01-27T18:31:13Z megachombass: return= enter
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2018-01-27T18:32:34Z megachombass: 86 ocurrencies
2018-01-27T18:32:53Z megachombass: ok ok, now atleast i know how to remplace with regular expresions with emacs
2018-01-27T18:33:16Z pjb: But now if you search for (get vm    you will see that there remains 3 of them.
2018-01-27T18:33:27Z megachombass: im really gonna learn more about emacs and lisp after my project. i just cant accept to feel so dumb
2018-01-27T18:33:38Z pjb: megachombass: to search use C-s
2018-01-27T18:33:45Z pjb: C-s (get vm RET
2018-01-27T18:34:05Z pjb: Then C-s C-s etc to skip to the following occurences.
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2018-01-27T18:37:49Z megachombass: yep
2018-01-27T18:37:56Z megachombass: so i still have 3 ocurrencies
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2018-01-27T18:38:38Z pjb: megachombass: check the property and (setf property) functions in the paste.
2018-01-27T18:38:51Z pjb: megachombass: you can replace those get  with  property.
2018-01-27T18:39:24Z megachombass: noticed you've forgoten BP each time
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2018-01-27T18:40:50Z pjb: megachombass: you forgot it too, since I copy/pasted…
2018-01-27T18:40:56Z pjb: Add whatever you want.
2018-01-27T18:41:11Z megachombass: i maybe forgot it to then, my bad
2018-01-27T18:41:15Z megachombass: well one sec
2018-01-27T18:41:41Z pjb: It's important to keep all the definition relevant to a single abstraction together, so you can easily keep consistency, when you make such modifications.
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2018-01-27T18:43:31Z megachombass: so (get vm adr) becompes (proprety (vm adr))   ?
2018-01-27T18:44:11Z pjb: (property vm adr)
2018-01-27T18:44:28Z pjb: the property function takes 2 arguments. Why are you trying to pass only 1?
2018-01-27T18:44:42Z megachombass: oh yes
2018-01-27T18:44:58Z megachombass: so used to call a function like fun(x,y) as in other languages
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2018-01-27T18:48:02Z megachombass: okey, so let me update current code
2018-01-27T18:48:33Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-27T18:48:39Z megachombass: i have the same error as before
2018-01-27T18:48:51Z megachombass:  :ETIQ #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (FIBO . 9999)) :ETIQNR #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (NB . 0))>       is not a symbol
2018-01-27T18:49:35Z megachombass: i have to rechange my useless functions and use first second etc
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2018-01-27T19:06:22Z pjb`: megachombass: perhaps you have old code in the image that's interfering.
2018-01-27T19:06:31Z pjb`: megachombass: try to reboot your lisp.
2018-01-27T19:06:34Z pjb` is now known as pjb
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2018-01-27T19:06:45Z megachombass: going to try
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2018-01-27T19:06:59Z makomo: megachombass: how long until the deadline?
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2018-01-27T19:07:10Z megachombass: tomorrow midnight
2018-01-27T19:07:35Z makomo: hah, i also have a deadline on that exact date
2018-01-27T19:07:54Z megachombass: for the same thing?
2018-01-27T19:07:56Z makomo: but since i'm in a team with another guy and we split our work, it's his worry
2018-01-27T19:08:17Z makomo: hm, well, almost. it's also compiler-related
2018-01-27T19:08:21Z makomo: but it's a simple C-like language
2018-01-27T19:08:42Z makomo: i wrote the semantic analyzer last time, he's writing the codegen today
2018-01-27T19:09:18Z megachombass: pjb: on fresh Clisp. i load the file, then (test) and still same eror
2018-01-27T19:09:40Z pjb: Try: (compile-file "your-file.lisp") and see if you get compilation errors.
2018-01-27T19:10:13Z megachombass: 0 error 38 warningsq
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2018-01-27T19:10:30Z pjb: Correct all those warnings.
2018-01-27T19:10:57Z pjb: Using the ccl compiler, I get more serious errors, on your file.
2018-01-27T19:11:27Z megachombass: hum
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2018-01-27T19:11:42Z megachombass: hence the old version was working, was returning 5
2018-01-27T19:11:45Z megachombass: wich is fibo of 5
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2018-01-27T19:15:57Z pjb: This is why it's important to have a test! :-)
2018-01-27T19:15:57Z pjb:  
2018-01-27T19:16:09Z pjb: So now you know there's a regression, and you need to debug the modifications.
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2018-01-27T19:16:21Z pjb: How many warnings remaining?
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2018-01-27T19:16:41Z megachombass: brb in 20 mins
2018-01-27T19:17:04Z makomo: can very much agree with what pjb said, having a test suite to run after you make a change is great
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2018-01-27T19:23:26Z cryptomarauder: any lisp blockchains yet?
2018-01-27T19:23:55Z cryptomarauder: lispchains
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2018-01-27T19:26:43Z zazzerino: sure, the beautifully named "Scheme Coin". https://gist.github.com/BusFactor1Inc/8a4dd842fdab81d84cfa8138a56b1725
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2018-01-27T19:30:35Z zazzerino: Also, there's a list dialect that targets the ethereum platform. It's called "Pyramid Scheme". http://www.michaelburge.us/2017/11/28/write-your-next-ethereum-contract-in-pyramid-scheme.html
2018-01-27T19:30:43Z stylewarning: billstclair wrote a nice ledger program
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2018-01-27T19:50:52Z megachombass: im back
2018-01-27T19:50:58Z megachombass: time to fix all those warnings
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2018-01-27T20:10:03Z ebrasca: megachombass: Your code has strange parentesis colocations.
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2018-01-27T20:15:37Z borei: hi all
2018-01-27T20:15:44Z phoe: hey Borei
2018-01-27T20:15:46Z phoe: I mean
2018-01-27T20:15:47Z phoe: hey borei
2018-01-27T20:15:51Z borei: :-)
2018-01-27T20:15:53Z phoe: (:
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2018-01-27T20:17:41Z borei: i have quick question abt function naming. Does lisp provide some sort of function overload (like it's done in C++ - one name, but different signature). I can achive this functionality using &rest and &key options, but it will require to create some additional logic in the function itself
2018-01-27T20:17:59Z phoe: borei: no.
2018-01-27T20:18:04Z phoe: #'FOO is always #'FOO.
2018-01-27T20:18:12Z megachombass: pjb: well, ive got ride of almost all warnings . one reduntant it says WARNING: in EXEC in lines 109..144 : CASE : Le choix QUOTE se répète:           (CASE INSTRUCT ('MOVE (MOVE VM PARAMETRE PARAMETRE2)) ('INCR (OPERATIONVM VM '+ '(:DIESE 1) PARAMETRE))            ('DECR (OPERATIONVM VM '- '(:DIESE 1) PARAMETRE)) ('ADD (OPERATIONVM VM '+ PARAMETRE PARAMETRE2))  ..........etc
2018-01-27T20:18:27Z phoe: if anything, you have the generic function mechanism.
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2018-01-27T20:18:59Z phoe: also, in Lisp, you can pass an argument of any type to a function - that's the "ultimate" function overloading.
2018-01-27T20:19:13Z borei: true
2018-01-27T20:19:22Z phoe: If you want efficiency, you can use compiler macros, that can check types at compile-time and generate more efficient code for known types.
2018-01-27T20:19:32Z phoe: that's another kind of function overloading.
2018-01-27T20:19:46Z phoe: and generic dispatch, which is yet another, object-oriented way of function overloading.
2018-01-27T20:20:08Z phoe: in other words: Lisp can't overload functions because it has nothing to overload.
2018-01-27T20:20:20Z borei: hmm
2018-01-27T20:20:34Z phoe: &key and &rest are yet another way of overloading, this time with relation to argument arity.
2018-01-27T20:21:18Z borei: ok, here is example - function translate, it can take one argument r (as a vector), or x, ,y ,z - numbers
2018-01-27T20:21:40Z borei: what would be "lispiest" approach ?
2018-01-27T20:21:46Z megachombass: Pjb: code with almost all warnings removed https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
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2018-01-27T20:23:22Z phoe: borei: IMO, make #'translate accept a sequence
2018-01-27T20:23:26Z pjb: megachombass: there are still those problems: https://codeshare.io/GAQKR8
2018-01-27T20:23:37Z pjb: megachombass: (detected by ccl).
2018-01-27T20:23:39Z phoe: and then call (translate vector) or (translate (list x y z))
2018-01-27T20:24:18Z megachombass:  In exec: Duplicate keyform quote in case statement. this one i dont see whats the problem. seems he think the case is the same
2018-01-27T20:24:25Z megachombass: because they all start with '
2018-01-27T20:25:02Z phoe: borei: with a compiler macro for most optimized cases, like an argument of type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (3))
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2018-01-27T20:25:32Z phoe: or vector of double-floats
2018-01-27T20:25:40Z phoe: or whatever else you expect to put into that function
2018-01-27T20:26:16Z borei: ok, ic
2018-01-27T20:27:31Z borei: tks for heads-up !
2018-01-27T20:27:36Z aeth: There is a library
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2018-01-27T20:28:18Z phoe: aeth: ?
2018-01-27T20:28:21Z aeth: If you're using a supported implementation you can use specialization-store to do type-based dispath that handles types at compile time. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2018-01-27T20:28:56Z aeth: Obviously it just uses macros, but it's macros you don't have to write.
2018-01-27T20:29:44Z megachombass: pjb: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA so, this should only give the the quote error duplicate and the setf's
2018-01-27T20:29:52Z megachombass: hence i dont know how to fix those two
2018-01-27T20:32:52Z aeth: s/dispath/dispatch/
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2018-01-27T20:34:05Z pjb: megachombass: remove the quotes!  In exec, ('move -> (move etc.
2018-01-27T20:34:28Z pjb: megachombass: or ((move) …) instead of ('move …)
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2018-01-27T20:35:24Z pjb: megachombass: it's better to write ((move) …) because if you wanted to test for nil, you would have to put the parentheses ((nil) …) since nil is the same as () and (nil …) would be (() …) ie. an empty list of constant, so the … would never be evaluated.
2018-01-27T20:36:16Z megachombass: i understand
2018-01-27T20:36:30Z megachombass: and now i have the setf problems
2018-01-27T20:36:38Z megachombass: seems its not the correct way to setf a variable
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2018-01-27T20:38:33Z pjb: megachombass: you need to declare the variable!
2018-01-27T20:38:46Z pjb: Use let (let (fibo1 fibo2) … (setf fibo1 …) …)
2018-01-27T20:38:51Z megachombass: but setf doesnt declare it implicitly?
2018-01-27T20:38:59Z pjb: Nope.
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2018-01-27T20:42:07Z megachombass: okey
2018-01-27T20:42:09Z megachombass: 0 warnings now
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2018-01-27T20:42:38Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA still have the error
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2018-01-27T20:44:41Z Shinmera: _death: Oh. Welp.
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2018-01-27T20:46:43Z megachombass: pjb: :ETIQ #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (FIBO . 9999)) :ETIQNR #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (NB . 0))>       is not a symbol
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2018-01-27T20:52:25Z Shinmera: _death: Fixed
2018-01-27T20:54:10Z pjb: megachombass: ok. So now apply the instructions in the debugging tutorial I gave you 3 days ago.
2018-01-27T20:54:51Z pjb: megachombass: you still have the link, right?
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2018-01-27T20:58:01Z megachombass: nope
2018-01-27T20:58:09Z megachombass: if you still have it somewhere
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2018-01-27T21:01:01Z pjb: megachombass: https://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2018-01-27T21:01:59Z pjb: megachombass: so, with clisp the debugger works better on interpreted code.
2018-01-27T21:02:16Z pjb: So while it may be useful to use compile-file to check for more errors,
2018-01-27T21:02:33Z pjb: you will have to reload the source file (load "foo.lisp") before debugging.
2018-01-27T21:03:49Z pjb: megachombass: in your case, since you have a VM with a big vector, you may want to (setf *print-length* 10) so that it doesn't prints thousands of 0s from your memtab.
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2018-01-27T21:05:24Z pjb: megachombass: so, have you found the bug?
2018-01-27T21:05:59Z megachombass: trying to
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2018-01-27T21:11:21Z megachombass: https://pastebin.com/61MNz2R7
2018-01-27T21:11:25Z megachombass: so there is my backtrace
2018-01-27T21:11:30Z megachombass: in the tutorial
2018-01-27T21:11:38Z megachombass: it says instantly wich functions fks up
2018-01-27T21:12:05Z megachombass: oh no wait
2018-01-27T21:12:11Z megachombass: okey let me read again the tutorial
2018-01-27T21:13:19Z pjb: megachombass: on line 27 you see the function move.
2018-01-27T21:13:30Z pjb: on line 23 it is called with the function apply
2018-01-27T21:13:42Z pjb: on line 19 you see the evaluation of the body of move.
2018-01-27T21:13:49Z pjb: the problem is in move.
2018-01-27T21:14:28Z pjb: When you read the source of move, you see that you've left an occurence of GET: (setf (get vm adr) res)
2018-01-27T21:14:51Z pjb: vm is a VM structure. GET expects a symbol. Hence the type-error.
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2018-01-27T21:15:42Z pjb: you see the call to system::%put on lines 13 and 14.
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2018-01-27T21:16:45Z _death: Shinmera: cool, thx
2018-01-27T21:16:46Z megachombass: well the error was indeed that
2018-01-27T21:17:00Z megachombass: but i dont know how you can figure out that move was the problem on that backtrace
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2018-01-27T21:17:07Z Shinmera: _death: I assume that optional argument mishap I introduced wasn't what confused you initially though, so to ask again: what was confusing about plaster-new?
2018-01-27T21:17:15Z pjb: because it's the first user function that appears on the stack!
2018-01-27T21:17:48Z pjb: line 28, not line 27.
2018-01-27T21:17:54Z megachombass: oh so all other is system functions, so i dont have to take care bout it
2018-01-27T21:17:59Z borei: hmm, can't find how to inforce type(s) for function parameters, except declare
2018-01-27T21:18:22Z megachombass: and then, i have to find first function written by me to see whats going on
2018-01-27T21:18:24Z borei: or it's only option ?
2018-01-27T21:18:25Z |3b|: clhs check-type
2018-01-27T21:18:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm
2018-01-27T21:18:25Z Shinmera: borei: Declare does the opposite of enforcing.
2018-01-27T21:18:27Z pjb: megachombass: the last system function gives you a hint, it's system::%put, if you know that it's what's called when you use (setf gethash).
2018-01-27T21:18:37Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-27T21:18:43Z Shinmera: borei: Declare promises to the compiler that the variable will have that specific type. if it does not the program can burn your house down.
2018-01-27T21:19:15Z megachombass: okey okey
2018-01-27T21:19:21Z megachombass: now, i know to debug
2018-01-27T21:19:24Z megachombass: im progressing
2018-01-27T21:19:54Z pjb: (progn (check-type i integer) (cond ((< i 10) (throw 'done)) ((> i 15) (quit)))  (locally (declare (i (integer 10 15)))   (foo i)))
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2018-01-27T21:20:50Z _death: Shinmera: the first time I tried it, it put up a buffer but I entered "lisp" for type, I missed the C-x C-s message and tried to use C-c C-c (which is what I'd expect).. I think I did end up submitting the entry somehow, but because the type was nonexistent it failed, and the second time I tried to use it, it didn't go the same way (I wasn't presented with an empty buffer) and so I resorted to using the paste-region function
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2018-01-27T21:21:56Z Shinmera: _death: I see. Why would you expect C-c C-c?
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2018-01-27T21:24:37Z _death: Shinmera: C-c C-c -> submit and C-c C-k -> cancel is what I'm used to from writing mails.. magit also used to have these bindings, though it changed submit (in the commit message buffer) to C-x # at some point..
2018-01-27T21:24:57Z Shinmera: _death: Ah. I avoided C-c C-c because in code buffers it usually means compile.
2018-01-27T21:25:10Z Shinmera: And I wanted to preserve that for when you're looking at a paste.
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2018-01-27T21:31:45Z aeth: borei: declare behaves like check-type in SBCL when safety != 0 and assumes types when safety == 0. It is slightly smaller in disassembly because it doesn't let you replace the value with a valid value iirc. It might assume the type at all safety levels in some implementations. It looks like CCL ignores it and ECL ignores it. This would be hard to test on all implementations, though, because some might behave differently at different optimi
2018-01-27T21:32:13Z aeth: might behave differently at different optimization levels, like SBCL.
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2018-01-27T21:36:35Z aeth: (It's also possible that they might behave differently at the REPL than with a compiled file, too.)
2018-01-27T21:38:48Z Shinmera: Regardless of what the implementation does, you should /NOT/ use declare to check types.
2018-01-27T21:39:04Z Shinmera: It's not about what it does, it's about what it's designed for and what it reads as.
2018-01-27T21:39:14Z Shinmera: A declaration is a promise, not a check.
2018-01-27T21:40:19Z stylewarning: I tried to implement this type of behavior with WITH-EXPECTATIONS https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/policy-cond
2018-01-27T21:40:35Z stylewarning: It’ll turn on/off checking depending on policy you set
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2018-01-27T21:41:02Z pjb: declare is to give information to the compiler, so it may perform type inference.
2018-01-27T21:41:20Z aeth: It definitely looks like there's three possibilities: (1) declaration ignored, (2) declaration checked, (3) declaration assumed. SBCL with (not (zeorp safety)) seems to offer #2, #1 seems to be the most common, and #3 is the risky thing you definitely do NOT want to happen but that could happen.
2018-01-27T21:41:21Z Xach: with-great-responsibility
2018-01-27T21:41:32Z stylewarning: Xach: :D
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2018-01-27T21:41:58Z Shinmera: aeth: Again it doesn't matter. For readability alone you should not use declarations for type checks.
2018-01-27T21:41:59Z aeth: Even with SBCL, I think #1 happens if the function is inline iirc
2018-01-27T21:42:12Z pjb: For example, in (let ((x (foo)))  (declare x integer)  (+ x 1))  you're telling the compiler that foo returns an integer. So that the + in (+ x 1) can perform integer addition without testing whether x is a ratio, a floating point or a complex, and without signaling a type error for something else.
2018-01-27T21:42:37Z pjb: But if foo returns something else than an integer, then you've LIED to the compiler and it will crash, like a vulgar C program!
2018-01-27T21:43:35Z aeth: Possibly.
2018-01-27T21:43:45Z pjb: On the other hand, in (let ((x (foo)))  (check-type x integer)  (+ x 1))  foo can return anything.  But check-type will ensure that x is an integer after it's executed.  Then the compiler can make the same assuption, but now, if foo returns something else than n integer, check-type will interact with the user to ensure that x is an integer or signal a type-error.
2018-01-27T21:44:01Z pjb: check-type is much better!
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2018-01-27T21:46:11Z stylewarning: I feel like advanced users of Lisp in #lisp all too often reiterate basic facts about Lisp to one another, without actually intending to convey or share info about Lisp, but rather to just (re)broadcast facts that are easy to be opinionated about.
2018-01-27T21:46:25Z stylewarning: (:
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2018-01-27T21:47:30Z Bike: is that an example of itself? is this an example? sociologists haven't yet worked it out
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2018-01-27T21:49:15Z Shinmera: stylewarning: It's a matter of opinion, but mine is right
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2018-01-27T22:38:30Z jmercouris: pjb: Did you guys succeed in the assignment?
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2018-01-27T22:57:54Z pjb: jmercouris: last message was: <megachombass> im progressing
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2018-01-27T22:59:16Z jmercouris: Hmm, well, hopefully he'll have some good luck
2018-01-27T22:59:26Z jmercouris: We all make mistakes in this life
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2018-01-27T23:05:20Z jmercouris: Anyone familar with cl-who? http://weitz.de/cl-who/
2018-01-27T23:05:29Z jmercouris: I'm getting extra spaces in some html generation, and I can't understand why
2018-01-27T23:06:52Z jmercouris: here's a small snippet illustrating: https://gist.github.com/5cbceb59e8ff6f535a8eb2ca65423051
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2018-01-27T23:08:24Z jmercouris: Here's the super bizzare part, converting the :h1 to a :a removes the extra spaces
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2018-01-27T23:10:57Z pjb: Well, obviously I wrote my own html generator, so I don't have those problems… :com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html
2018-01-27T23:11:06Z |3b|: jmercouris: might try turning off indentation in generated html if it is on
2018-01-27T23:11:13Z megachombass: im back
2018-01-27T23:11:25Z megachombass: had to prepare and eat dinner
2018-01-27T23:11:53Z jmercouris: |3b|: How do I do that? is that some config during compilation or is there a command?
2018-01-27T23:11:58Z |3b| doesn't remember if cl-who does indentation the correct-but-ugly way or not, doesn't look like it from examples
2018-01-27T23:12:35Z |3b|: jmercouris: option to with-html-output
2018-01-27T23:12:40Z |3b|: looks like it defaults to off though
2018-01-27T23:12:54Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I see
2018-01-27T23:13:05Z jmercouris: It sure seems like a bug to me
2018-01-27T23:13:17Z |3b| notes that including the generated html along with some indication of what you think is wrong with it in the question might get you better answers
2018-01-27T23:13:19Z jmercouris: I'll just make it an anchor for now that jumps down to the "features" section of the page :D
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2018-01-27T23:13:45Z jmercouris: |3b|: I can upload the generated html as well, one moment please
2018-01-27T23:13:48Z megachombass: pjb: this is the state of the code right now
2018-01-27T23:13:51Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-27T23:14:47Z megachombass: what more can be done?
2018-01-27T23:15:32Z megachombass: i really dont like the LOC syntax in his asem code, really doesnt represent anything
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2018-01-27T23:16:32Z megachombass: because i belive teacher is going to write some asm by hand (as i dont have a compiler to give to him), and gonna wonder wtf (move (LOC -1 0) :R0) does represent
2018-01-27T23:17:23Z jmercouris: |3b|: https://gist.github.com/f500cf3dde4f10f832759f8c942f3ae8
2018-01-27T23:18:26Z |3b|: yeah, looks like you have indentation turned on
2018-01-27T23:18:58Z |3b|: (and it does it the 'wrong' way)
2018-01-27T23:19:15Z jmercouris: I must have it turned on in my site generator then
2018-01-27T23:19:29Z jmercouris: I just recently forked site-generator, and I didn't touch that part of the code yet
2018-01-27T23:19:37Z jmercouris: I'll have to change it, though I do like the idea of using an anchor anyway
2018-01-27T23:19:42Z jmercouris: let me see if the optional param is set
2018-01-27T23:19:51Z jmercouris: s/param/argument
2018-01-27T23:19:55Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca
2018-01-27T23:20:02Z jmercouris: Though I guess those are synonyms really
2018-01-27T23:20:39Z |3b| thinks there is a distinction, but never can remember which is which :(
2018-01-27T23:20:59Z |3b|: one is the variable/binding while other is the value when called, or something like that
2018-01-27T23:21:16Z jmercouris: Doesn't matter that much, as long as we have good context
2018-01-27T23:21:22Z |3b| wouldn't be surprised if others define them differently though, naming is hard :)
2018-01-27T23:21:29Z jmercouris: Anyways very interesting, I don't see with-output-to-html anywhere in the codebase
2018-01-27T23:21:56Z jmercouris: damnit, wrong word order
2018-01-27T23:22:02Z jmercouris: with-html-output-to-string exists
2018-01-27T23:22:21Z jmercouris: and you're correct, indent is set to t
2018-01-27T23:22:36Z jmercouris: are there any advantages to indenting? just readability or?
2018-01-27T23:22:51Z jmercouris: at any rate, thank you for your help
2018-01-27T23:23:00Z |3b|: yeah, advantages are readability, wasting bandwidth, and the bug you just ran into
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2018-01-27T23:23:32Z jmercouris: I'll never be working with the code indented outside of development
2018-01-27T23:23:40Z jmercouris: maybe I should have it as a flag one can set in their config
2018-01-27T23:23:55Z jmercouris: then again, development should mirror production as closely as possible :(
2018-01-27T23:24:18Z |3b|: to indent html 'correctly', your html should look like ><a instead of <a>, with the indentation inside tags
2018-01-27T23:24:47Z jmercouris: I'm not about to fork cl-who as well :D
2018-01-27T23:24:54Z jmercouris: I've already pulled in enough dependencies lol
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2018-01-27T23:29:57Z pjb: megachombass: well, virtual machine can be anything.  But if you make a machine with a PC, a SP, and 4 registers holding each integers or even words (integers modulo 2^p), usually the instructions are themselves encoded into integers.  Here you have something more ressembling an interpreter of an assembler, than a virtual machine.  I don't know if that was specified or not, but perhaps you would have wanted to make it more like a
2018-01-27T23:29:57Z pjb: micro-processor.  The example of virtual machine I gave you the url of was like that.  The assembler converted the program into a sequence of byte, and the virtual machine interpreted those bytes.
2018-01-27T23:31:15Z pjb: megachombass: the reason why it's a good thing is that it allows the programm running on this virtual machine to modify itself.  Since you only have operations to deal with integers, and none to deal with lists such as (LOC -1 0), in the current VM you cannot write a program generating a program containing references to local variables or parameters!
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2018-01-27T23:32:05Z pjb: megachombass: (your current file only contains a dash, that's all). https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-27T23:34:12Z megachombass: oh wait what
2018-01-27T23:34:13Z megachombass: where is my code
2018-01-27T23:34:19Z jmercouris: I'm guessing some asshole deleted it
2018-01-27T23:34:40Z pjb: At this point, the following quote comes to mind: "You don't want to sell me death sticks. You want to go home and rethink your life." u
2018-01-27T23:34:47Z pjb: I hope this was your only copy!
2018-01-27T23:34:53Z pjb: sorry:  was NOT
2018-01-27T23:34:54Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-27T23:35:33Z pjb: ok, test seems to do the same as before.
2018-01-27T23:36:18Z megachombass: ye, test prints the load machine contennt and at the end returns 5 (result of (fibo 5)
2018-01-27T23:36:52Z pjb: megachombass: why do you read the fibos from strings?
2018-01-27T23:37:12Z megachombass: because i needed to work with working assembly code
2018-01-27T23:37:13Z megachombass: and that code
2018-01-27T23:37:20Z megachombass: is the result of the lisp compiler
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2018-01-27T23:37:48Z megachombass: as i havent even finished with the VM, and prolly will never have time to make the compiler for tomorrow, i needed some code to work with
2018-01-27T23:39:50Z pjb: megachombass: since the lisp compiler produces a sexp, you can just quote it and use it directly!
2018-01-27T23:40:12Z megachombass: sexp?
2018-01-27T23:40:59Z pjb: SYMBOLIC EXPRESSION
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2018-01-27T23:41:58Z megachombass: but thats what i do
2018-01-27T23:42:07Z megachombass: reading the string, i convert it to a sexp
2018-01-27T23:42:12Z megachombass: that i can give to the vm
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2018-01-27T23:45:41Z pjb: megachombass: the point is that Lisp already contains a READER!
2018-01-27T23:46:04Z megachombass: if i just '(my asem code) it doesnt work
2018-01-27T23:46:19Z pjb: You don't need to read it yourself from the string!  Just write (let ((fibo1 '((entreeprocedure) (@ foo) ...)) (fibo2 '((move …) …))) …)
2018-01-27T23:46:34Z megachombass: going to try again
2018-01-27T23:46:49Z pjb: It will work if you print it with *print-circle* and *print-readably* both set to T.
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2018-01-27T23:47:45Z ebrasca: megachombass: why you have - in line 29 ?
2018-01-27T23:48:50Z pjb: Notice that - is a special variable in lisp that is bound to the form being evaluated in the REPL. It's NIL elsewhere.
2018-01-27T23:49:34Z pjb: One can therefore have fun by adding lines of: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   in lisp sources…
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2018-01-27T23:50:13Z megachombass: ebrasca: wasnt me, someone that is checkign the code and adding things
2018-01-27T23:50:33Z pjb: For more fun, you can also use + + + + or ++ ++ ++ or +++ +++ +++ +++ or * * * * * or ** ** ** or *** *** *** *** or / / / / or // // // or /// /// /// or any combination such as + - + - + - + etc.
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2018-01-27T23:52:12Z ebrasca: What is for codeshare ?
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2018-01-27T23:53:13Z pjb: it's a paste that can be edited by anybody.  Unless you lock your pastes.
2018-01-27T23:53:20Z pjb: It allows collaborative editing.
2018-01-27T23:53:28Z pjb: There's also an option for videochat.
2018-01-27T23:54:33Z ebrasca: I am retarted , I think it is read only ...
2018-01-27T23:54:59Z ebrasca: megachombass: Sory for mi mistake 2 times ...
2018-01-27T23:55:41Z ebrasca: pjb: Thanks for explaining.
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2018-01-27T23:58:09Z ebrasca: pjb: How I can copy all code for testing?
2018-01-27T23:58:19Z pjb: Select all and copy work.
2018-01-27T23:58:25Z pjb: You may have to click on the text first.
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2018-01-28T00:00:59Z megachombass: removed the read for strings
2018-01-28T00:01:03Z megachombass: from*
2018-01-28T00:01:26Z ebrasca: pjb: I have accident delete 2 times some code by trying to copy it ...
2018-01-28T00:01:45Z megachombass: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-28T00:02:18Z megachombass: no worries ebrasca, just contrl+a control+c and just paste it in emacs
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2018-01-28T00:05:07Z megachombass: pjb: so yeah, as said before, only request are is to have a VM that reads compiled fibo and fact
2018-01-28T00:05:21Z megachombass: must use registers, cant be stack based
2018-01-28T00:05:27Z pjb: ok.e
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2018-01-28T00:05:46Z megachombass: from there, if you have sugestions
2018-01-28T00:05:57Z ebrasca: It only copy "-" to my emacs ...
2018-01-28T00:06:25Z ebrasca: megachombass: Make good parentesis in your functions.
2018-01-28T00:06:37Z megachombass: ebra
2018-01-28T00:06:40Z pjb: megachombass: as I said a few days ago, my suggestions are here: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Compilation
2018-01-28T00:06:43Z megachombass: ebrasca: yep im about to reindent
2018-01-28T00:08:11Z pjb: megachombass: in particular, Toy Language Byte Code Compiler. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/QMakibYYZRg/fgQulr5b4BwJ  shows both a compiler to lap assembler,  a lap assembler to VM byte code, and the VM.
2018-01-28T00:08:52Z pjb: megachombass: Compile to a simple VM https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/HqV4B5aoj-c/yI4_av1C6KUJ  is another example.
2018-01-28T00:09:56Z pjb: megachombass: notice at the bottom of the post, how a call to (assemble (compile-program  …)) --> #(0 0 6 0 42 0 0 1 4 25 0 2 0 0 2 4 21 0 1 6 5 0 2 6 5 0 3 6 0 4 6 7)
2018-01-28T00:10:16Z pjb: megachombass: the VM called by execute interprets this byte code.
2018-01-28T00:11:10Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-28T00:11:15Z megachombass: i see plus or less
2018-01-28T00:11:31Z megachombass: but kinda imposible for me to implement that in 23 hours remaining
2018-01-28T00:11:47Z pjb: I gave those links several days ago.
2018-01-28T00:11:50Z megachombass: knowing that i would need to translate that bytecode for my vm to read it
2018-01-28T00:12:29Z pjb: Well, at this point it's probably wiser to only make cosmetic changes, if any.
2018-01-28T00:12:33Z megachombass: pjb: i know, and seems several days im still on the VM xD
2018-01-28T00:13:08Z megachombass: thats why i think the best is to have a "perfect VM" atleast
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2018-01-28T00:14:09Z pjb: No problem. Define "perfect".
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2018-01-28T00:16:17Z megachombass: well, by perfect in my case is : " does essentially the same as the already existing code, but without beeing the existing code. make a change to the (move (loc - 1 0) :RO) that does weird operations with the FP that i cant explain myself. maybe do some functionallity changes on the VM, that can still load and execute the asm code without changing the asm code given as param (exept for the loc thing))"
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2018-01-28T00:17:38Z megachombass: pjb: btw, i will never be thankfull enough for the help you giving me. really, my university career depends on this, and having people really passionated of progamming, whiling to spend their time on newbies like me, its beatifull
2018-01-28T00:17:55Z megachombass: hope one day, when i will be senior dev, i will always have an irc open to do the same
2018-01-28T00:18:07Z megachombass: right now i cant teach much xd
2018-01-28T00:18:13Z pjb: You ust need to become passionate about programming yourself.
2018-01-28T00:18:16Z pjb: j
2018-01-28T00:18:39Z megachombass: i am, but i tend to abandonate quickly when i dont understand something
2018-01-28T00:19:00Z megachombass: when well explained, i understand everything
2018-01-28T00:19:31Z pjb: So you only need to explain it to yourself well, so you may understand it.
2018-01-28T00:19:46Z pjb: Use google, read, learn, and give yourself a good explanation!
2018-01-28T00:19:58Z megachombass: thats what i usually do
2018-01-28T00:20:29Z megachombass: but with >"old technologies"<  that i cant find handy examples , its hard
2018-01-28T00:20:44Z pjb: I don't know what you're refering to here.
2018-01-28T00:20:54Z ebrasca: I like someone explain me how to port mezzano to POWER9 cpu architecture and talos II.
2018-01-28T00:20:57Z pjb: In the case of lisp since it exists since 60 years, there are a lot of handy examples!
2018-01-28T00:21:03Z ebrasca: I have never write any assambly.
2018-01-28T00:21:03Z megachombass: for me lisp is like from another era
2018-01-28T00:21:57Z pjb: megachombass: how many of those tutorials have you read? https://www.cliki.net/Online%20Tutorial
2018-01-28T00:21:58Z ebrasca: For me is lisp is new and fun.
2018-01-28T00:22:10Z pjb: megachombass: how many of those books have you read? https://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Books
2018-01-28T00:22:13Z megachombass: specially ive been acepted on a internship in japan for this summer, where i will work on some android dev and web services based on REST
2018-01-28T00:22:37Z pjb: And basically, they're only about Common Lisp, we've not started a list about Lisp in general!
2018-01-28T00:23:03Z pjb: megachombass: great.  Learn Japanese well, so you may be able to read robotics and AI papers!
2018-01-28T00:23:26Z megachombass: im already learning it! among the 100000 things im learning atm
2018-01-28T00:23:45Z pjb: and all those nice japanese lisp projects: https://github.com/suguru03/made-in-japan/blob/master/docs/Common%20Lisp.md
2018-01-28T00:23:46Z megachombass: but to go to japan, imma need to pass the VM assignment xd
2018-01-28T00:25:25Z pjb: megachombass: well read at least those two posts I linked above.
2018-01-28T00:25:51Z megachombass: he told us friday that the most important was to have a compiler that compiles fibo and fact. i told him "we" only had a VM he said well, you're kinda fked, and that we had untill sunday to send him our work
2018-01-28T00:26:07Z megachombass: i guss that if the VM is perfect,i will get atleast a 10/20
2018-01-28T00:26:34Z pjb: You need that you still have to write the compiler?
2018-01-28T00:26:47Z pjb: s/need/mean/
2018-01-28T00:26:55Z megachombass: not exactly
2018-01-28T00:27:06Z megachombass: i told him "we have a fraction of compiler"
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2018-01-28T00:27:17Z megachombass: i could make the compiler and send him
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2018-01-28T00:27:19Z megachombass: thats not ilegal
2018-01-28T00:27:36Z megachombass: but how on earth imma build a fact fibo compiler that fits my VM in 1 day
2018-01-28T00:27:49Z megachombass: if i take it from internet i would be fked as they have anticheat tools
2018-01-28T00:27:51Z pjb: Oh, the compiler must run in the VM?
2018-01-28T00:28:08Z megachombass: must run in A vm
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2018-01-28T00:28:16Z megachombass: not specially the one we've been twering around
2018-01-28T00:28:52Z megachombass: but must fit in a vm with registers
2018-01-28T00:28:53Z pjb: Yes.  So your VM must be a lisp VM, not just an arithmetic VM.
2018-01-28T00:29:06Z megachombass: yes, must be a lisp vm
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2018-01-28T00:29:38Z megachombass: http://www.lirmm.fr/~lafourcade/ML-enseign/Compilation/compil-GenCode.HTML
2018-01-28T00:29:42Z pjb: Yes, you will need more instructions and data types.
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2018-01-28T00:30:43Z pjb: This is not a lisp VM.  Here is one: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/bytecode.html
2018-01-28T00:31:15Z pjb: See for example: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/instr-set.html#instr-inline
2018-01-28T00:31:58Z megachombass: yes, its not a lisp vm. we have to do a vm + or - like that one
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2018-01-28T00:32:10Z megachombass: well wait, going to give you another link
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2018-01-28T00:34:09Z megachombass: nvm i have lost it
2018-01-28T00:34:26Z megachombass: let me check your links
2018-01-28T00:34:49Z pjb: So you need a specification of the lisp VM; So you write in lisp a compiler that compiles lisp to lap assembler. Then you write an assembler that assembles the lap assembler to the lisp VM bytecode.  And you need to implement the lisp VM.  Then you can compile everything with CL.  Then once you have a running VM, you compile your compiler with the compiler you compiled in CL, thus obtaining your compiler in lap assembler. You asse
2018-01-28T00:34:49Z pjb: it, and you load it in the lisp VM. then you can run it on itself.
2018-01-28T00:36:06Z megachombass: ye, he told us the ultimate goal was to be able to "compile the compiler"
2018-01-28T00:36:15Z pjb: Anyways, as I said earlier, your current VM can't be used to run the compiler on itself, since it has no instruction to deal with things like (move (loc -1 0) :r0).  The instructions it has are only move, incr, decr, add, sub, mult, div, jmp, cmp, jg, jge, jeq, jl, jle, jne, jsr, push pop rtn.
2018-01-28T00:36:34Z pjb: It doesn't even have I/O, so you cannot implement a lisp reader.
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2018-01-28T00:37:07Z pjb: megachombass: you're not there at all.
2018-01-28T00:37:45Z megachombass: wait a sec, the vm does handle (move (loc -1 0) :r0)
2018-01-28T00:37:49Z megachombass: it have the functions in it
2018-01-28T00:37:51Z megachombass: for that case
2018-01-28T00:38:14Z pjb: Write in assembler a program that will generate move instructions!
2018-01-28T00:39:11Z megachombass: well, the ASM for fibo does have moves :(MOVE (:DIESE 2) :R0)
2018-01-28T00:39:17Z pjb: Write in assembler a program that takes two arguments a and b will generate for example, the binary code for a function that takes 1 argument x and computes a*x+b.
2018-01-28T00:39:19Z megachombass: puts constant 2 into register RO
2018-01-28T00:40:09Z pjb: In lisp: (defun generate-line-function (a b) (lambda (x) (+ (* a x) b)))
2018-01-28T00:40:09Z pjb: (generate-line-function 3 2) -->  #<ccl:compiled-lexical-closure (:internal generate-line-function) #x3020060BE8FF>
2018-01-28T00:40:09Z pjb: (funcall (generate-line-function 3 2) 1) --> 5
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2018-01-28T00:41:18Z megachombass: hum, just lacking lambda?
2018-01-28T00:42:14Z megachombass: all is base on this guy work : https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm
2018-01-28T00:42:25Z pjb: It should be called this way:  (move (:diese 3) :r0) (push :r0)  (move (:diese 2) :r0) (push :r0) (jsr (@ generate)) (move (:dieze 1) :r1) (push :r1) (jsr :r0)
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2018-01-28T00:43:39Z megachombass: and why whould the VM right cant handle those moves?
2018-01-28T00:43:50Z megachombass: right now*
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2018-01-28T00:44:45Z pjb: the problem is in what @generate will return in :r0
2018-01-28T00:44:54Z pjb: What will you compute and put in :r0?
2018-01-28T00:46:19Z megachombass: in my understadning, jsr will go to the generate function, does not specially put something in :R0
2018-01-28T00:46:47Z pjb: the generate function must return a new function (more precisely, a closure).  Let's say that it returns it in the register :r0.  What will you put there?
2018-01-28T00:47:06Z pjb: What can you compute with the instructions of the VM to be stored in r0?
2018-01-28T00:47:32Z pjb: Jotice that I use (jsr :r0) next.  So what should r0 contain?
2018-01-28T00:47:37Z pjb: s/J/N/
2018-01-28T00:48:17Z megachombass: th result of generate?
2018-01-28T00:48:28Z pjb: Which is WHAT?
2018-01-28T00:48:36Z megachombass: and i add his adress to the stack?
2018-01-28T00:48:44Z pjb: the address to WHAT?
2018-01-28T00:48:50Z megachombass: we dont know yet, as we have to execute the generate function to know
2018-01-28T00:49:05Z pjb: No, you have to WRITE the function generate.
2018-01-28T00:49:23Z pjb: I'm trying to show you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to write a function generate that does what is required!
2018-01-28T00:49:37Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-28T00:49:44Z pjb: The function generate will return the address of the generated function.
2018-01-28T00:50:46Z megachombass: could we modify the VM to actually take this into account?
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2018-01-28T00:51:26Z pjb: When we run (jsr :r0), the PC will be loaded with the content of r0.  Now the question is what should be stored at this address?  Ie, at the address of the generated function?
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2018-01-28T00:52:44Z megachombass: it should be the entry of the function, aka the defun part
2018-01-28T00:53:08Z megachombass: like at the adress of pc returned by R0, it should contain (defun generate)
2018-01-28T00:53:13Z megachombass: or something like this
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2018-01-28T00:54:23Z dmiles: in a WAM VM it might have (trust generate) :P
2018-01-28T00:54:47Z pmc_: Why do I get a warning in SBCL when I type at the toplevel: (setf x 'a) ?
2018-01-28T00:55:12Z dmiles: (means that the next instruction promises to be the trustworthy code of generate :P
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2018-01-28T00:57:12Z pjb: megachombass: the memory cell at that address must contain (entreefonction).  How do you write a function such as @generate, to store (entreefonction) in memory?
2018-01-28T00:57:19Z Bike: pmc_: cos you haven't told it what x is. doesn't it say something like that? "undefined variable" maybe?
2018-01-28T00:57:30Z pjb: megachombass: you have move :dieze, add sub mul div cmp to do it!
2018-01-28T00:57:34Z dmiles apologizes )
2018-01-28T00:58:07Z pjb: megachombass: notice that load-vm is written in Common Lisp, not in assembler.  You cannot write load-vm in your VM assembler!
2018-01-28T00:59:02Z pmc_: bike: oh, so I have to do (defparameter x 'a) ?
2018-01-28T00:59:04Z pjb: megachombass: you have two alternative: either you move your VM toward your assembly, adding data types and instructions to deal with Sexp in the VM, or you must write an assembler that converts the sexps into numbers and only numbers.
2018-01-28T00:59:12Z Bike: pmc_: something like that, yes.
2018-01-28T00:59:17Z pjb: and run-vm must only deal with numbers, since that's all that your VM can process!
2018-01-28T00:59:52Z megachombass: i believe its better to move VM towards assembly
2018-01-28T01:00:00Z pmc_: bike: thanks
2018-01-28T01:00:16Z megachombass: it will add more functionalities to the VM (as i have not added much code to the actual vm......)
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2018-01-28T01:00:58Z pjb: megachombass: if you choose the later option, you should notice that if you want to use the same compiler generating the same assembler, you will need to implement in your VM that works only with numbers, a lisp VM, ie. you will have to implement functions such as CONS, CAR, CDR, NULL, INTERN, READ, etc…
2018-01-28T01:01:12Z pjb: megachombass: this is what is done by what we call "native lisp compilers".
2018-01-28T01:01:44Z pjb: megachombass: if you choose the earlier option, then you can keep most of the current compiler and assembler, since you have a lisp VM. This is similar to the clisp "lisp byte code compiler".
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2018-01-28T01:02:19Z megachombass: defintivly option 1
2018-01-28T01:02:33Z megachombass: if i had time, option 2 would be great
2018-01-28T01:02:40Z pjb: megachombass: in either case,  we're not talking about 0.2 BTC. It's rather something like 20,000 BTC, to find somebody with a time machine to send you back last month.
2018-01-28T01:03:06Z megachombass: well
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2018-01-28T01:03:10Z megachombass: and what can be done
2018-01-28T01:03:13Z megachombass: for cheap
2018-01-28T01:03:17Z megachombass: in the remaining time i have
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2018-01-28T01:03:38Z pjb: (assuming 20 million USD is what it takes for a 1-month time travel, but I could be wrong, it could be 200 million or 2 billions).
2018-01-28T01:04:50Z megachombass: im willing to pay for something half decent i cant send to teacher tomorrow
2018-01-28T01:04:59Z pjb: megachombass: You have barely the time to write the specifications and a design sketch for your system.
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2018-01-28T01:06:15Z megachombass: thats why im basing on https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm
2018-01-28T01:06:33Z pjb: megachombass: Have you heard about Ariane 5?
2018-01-28T01:06:46Z megachombass: the rocket?
2018-01-28T01:06:52Z megachombass: isnt that one who blow up
2018-01-28T01:06:59Z megachombass: coz of a byte error?
2018-01-28T01:07:17Z pjb: http://www-users.math.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/ariane.html
2018-01-28T01:07:27Z pjb: Basically because they used a module without reading the specifications.
2018-01-28T01:08:03Z pjb: The interface between modules is not performed at the level of the API. It's performed at the level of the specifications.
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2018-01-28T01:09:02Z megachombass: well, thanks god im not trying to make a rocket
2018-01-28T01:09:15Z megachombass: and in my case, if it explodes mid air, aint a big deal
2018-01-28T01:09:52Z megachombass: right now it barely takes off xD
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2018-01-28T01:16:23Z aeth: megachombass: How much time do you have?
2018-01-28T01:16:51Z megachombass: untill tomorrow midnight
2018-01-28T01:17:10Z pjb: less than 22 hours.
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2018-01-28T01:18:50Z aeth: How many of those hours can you spend on this project?
2018-01-28T01:19:02Z megachombass: well
2018-01-28T01:19:05Z megachombass: i have to sleep
2018-01-28T01:19:13Z megachombass: so 22-8
2018-01-28T01:19:27Z megachombass: 14h
2018-01-28T01:19:34Z aeth: I'm guessing only 10-12 productive hours in that period, at most.
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2018-01-28T01:19:45Z megachombass: y
2018-01-28T01:19:53Z megachombass: knowing im a pure garbage in lisp
2018-01-28T01:20:07Z megachombass: i will , by myself , do 2 tiny mods in 12h
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2018-01-28T01:20:34Z aeth: Imo, anticipate the worst case and schedule a way to try and finish the project in 8-9 hours.
2018-01-28T01:21:13Z megachombass: by myself i cant
2018-01-28T01:21:28Z ebrasca: megachombass: Good luck
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2018-01-28T01:21:38Z megachombass: all significative changes have been done by pjb
2018-01-28T01:21:39Z pjb: design and implement a VM able to run self modifying programs. Design and implement the assembler and compiler so that it can be targetted to that VM.
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2018-01-28T01:22:06Z megachombass: like in 1 hour he has done more than me in a week
2018-01-28T01:22:13Z pjb: Basically, you have to know that very well, you have to know lisp very well, and you have to start from scratch.
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2018-01-28T01:23:09Z megachombass: exactly, and i know the vm comme ci comme ca, im a dumbass in lisp, and if i start from sracth i will do nothing in the remaining time
2018-01-28T01:23:31Z pjb: I would say, there would be a 0.6 probability I could do it in 22 hours, but I would ask form more than 2 BTC, and even with the money I'm not sure I'm motivated to do it. And unfortunately, I'd have to sleep too, so…
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2018-01-28T01:24:05Z pjb: So this is where the lesson is taught.  Start your projects early!
2018-01-28T01:24:30Z megachombass: and i clearly dont have 2 btc
2018-01-28T01:24:35Z megachombass: beeing a stundent xd
2018-01-28T01:24:53Z megachombass: THEREFORE, i cant maybe purchase a couple of hours of your time to work on whats already been done?
2018-01-28T01:24:58Z megachombass: i could*
2018-01-28T01:25:07Z pjb: Happily, you don't need a user interface or a debugger!
2018-01-28T01:25:08Z megachombass: like 1 hours of yours is 1 week of mine
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2018-01-28T01:26:07Z ebrasca: megachombass: Everyone need to lear some day.
2018-01-28T01:26:27Z aeth: You need to (1) understand the subject, (2) be comfortable in the language being used, and (3) have written something similar before.
2018-01-28T01:26:28Z ebrasca: megachombass: I am doing mi fat32 XD.
2018-01-28T01:26:36Z aeth: In order to do it in a day.
2018-01-28T01:26:54Z megachombass: yep
2018-01-28T01:27:02Z megachombass: pjb meets like all the requirements
2018-01-28T01:27:11Z megachombass: almost wondering if he is not my teacher xd
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2018-01-28T01:27:29Z aeth: The problem is that the only people who meet the requirements are people who won't do people's homework, especially not for free.
2018-01-28T01:27:38Z Bike: if you're worried about being kicked out of university, paying someone to do your homework seems like a bad move to me
2018-01-28T01:28:00Z megachombass: well actually noone will never know that i purchased it
2018-01-28T01:28:01Z aeth: (and if you want to find some shady Internet figure to pay, doing it in a public channel is not a good idea)
2018-01-28T01:28:08Z Bike: the perfect crime
2018-01-28T01:28:12Z megachombass: as if he makes the code, it wont be on the internet
2018-01-28T01:28:42Z aeth: This isn't a major language, you probably won't be able to find anyone.
2018-01-28T01:28:50Z ebrasca: What if he get your money and don't make any code?
2018-01-28T01:29:03Z aeth: ebrasca: Then megachombass can issue a chargeback on the BTC
2018-01-28T01:29:11Z aeth: oh wait
2018-01-28T01:29:20Z ebrasca: Yea
2018-01-28T01:29:22Z megachombass: well, in this case i will be scammed and kicked of the university
2018-01-28T01:29:25Z megachombass: double fked
2018-01-28T01:29:36Z megachombass: but atleast i would've tried
2018-01-28T01:29:51Z zazzerino: good thing you're not on the internet right now
2018-01-28T01:30:17Z megachombass: zazzerino: why you say so?
2018-01-28T01:30:36Z ebrasca: megachombass: Pay me now what you can , I can make your code trust me.
2018-01-28T01:30:52Z megachombass: ebras
2018-01-28T01:30:55Z megachombass: ebrasca: :P
2018-01-28T01:31:14Z ebrasca: Yea trust some random guy in some IRC.
2018-01-28T01:31:15Z zazzerino: megachombass: He's trying to rip you off. I'll do it for just 1 BTC
2018-01-28T01:31:19Z aeth: The thing is, programmers can make a lot of money with their talents without having to resort to shady internet deals.
2018-01-28T01:31:47Z megachombass: pjb: common, just a couple hours of your time! you save my life, and you earn some money
2018-01-28T01:31:55Z megachombass: really, im fking desesperate
2018-01-28T01:32:18Z aeth: At this point, the best you can do is partial credit, and try to write as much as possible and do as much as possible.
2018-01-28T01:33:02Z aeth: Buy coffee, go for a walk, think about how to implement as much as you can in 8-10 hours of work. Keep in mind that a sleep break will probably make you more productive, so don't pull an all-nighter.
2018-01-28T01:33:31Z megachombass: aeth:
2018-01-28T01:34:00Z megachombass: the thing is i dont really know what and how to implement from my VM
2018-01-28T01:34:28Z megachombass: right now, adding just a couple functionalities to the VM, make the code nicier would be enough
2018-01-28T01:38:37Z aeth: You need to follow a strict schedule right now. Break up the issue into features. Estimate the time. Find out what you think you can do in 8-10 hours. Prioritize on getting it as complete as possible. Ignore polish. Any optimizations or polish can just be commented in a note that you could update later, when you have time, if you need to use that program later.
2018-01-28T01:39:08Z aeth: Don't think about nicer, just think about crossing items off of a checklist.
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2018-01-28T01:39:49Z aeth: #lisp will tell you the proper, idiomatic way of doing things. That is nice. That will save you time maintaining the code and make your code readable to the community. What you need, though, is a giant mess of spaghetti as long as you can get it done.
2018-01-28T01:41:23Z megachombass: well, in any case, im off to sleep now
2018-01-28T01:41:31Z megachombass: will come back tomorrow for more begging xd
2018-01-28T01:41:50Z ebrasca: megachombass: good nigth
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2018-01-28T01:42:10Z zazzerino: megachombass: Good luck with your assignment. Keep in mind the more effort you put into this, the more people will be willing to help you.
2018-01-28T01:43:26Z ebrasca: Someone like to read my fat32 code?
2018-01-28T01:44:18Z ebrasca: Here link : http://termbin.com/n7qs
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2018-01-28T01:45:45Z ebrasca: I like to make 1 function from 3 : read-dir-from-cluster , remove-dir-from-cluster and write-metadata.
2018-01-28T01:46:11Z ebrasca: They are almost equal , but I can't find how to unifi them.
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2018-01-28T01:48:53Z aeth: Oh, and for the record, my advice (create technical debt! just meet the features!) is only applicable when you have less than a day to do more than a week's worth of work. It's terrible advice under normal circumstances.
2018-01-28T01:49:22Z aeth: If you do this for most projects you'll find that it's easier to rewrite it than to improve it. And that's a really bad thing.
2018-01-28T01:51:28Z ebrasca: aeth: I understand I have 3 similar functions in mi code and don't know how to refactor them.
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2018-01-28T01:55:06Z aeth: Oh, and lots of coffee helps for the last day of an impossible deadline.
2018-01-28T01:55:19Z aeth: (Unless you already drink too much coffee.)
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2018-01-28T01:57:49Z aeth: Oh, and don't make panic coding huge projects at the last minute a habit, though. Not only do you create terrible programs, you also can only get away with this a few times in your life.
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2018-01-28T02:01:07Z aeth: (It's very unhealthy.)
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2018-01-28T02:04:34Z ebrasca: Here working link : http://termbin.com/dxcn
2018-01-28T02:04:57Z aeth: ebrasca: woah
2018-01-28T02:05:14Z aeth: megastruct
2018-01-28T02:05:28Z ebrasca: aeth: ???
2018-01-28T02:05:36Z aeth: That's the largest struct I've seen in CL
2018-01-28T02:06:54Z aeth: ebrasca: what do you need help with?
2018-01-28T02:07:02Z ebrasca: aeth: Do you think I can make 1 function from read-dir-from-cluster , remove-dir-from-cluster and write-metadata?
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2018-01-28T02:09:00Z aeth: If it has a lot of common structure, but that structure is a wrapper around a body that's different, it looks like you might want a macro
2018-01-28T02:09:52Z aeth: i.e. the functions remain different, but the common, duplicated part is removed from the functions
2018-01-28T02:10:29Z aeth: The common part is a loop, so just glancing at it, it looks like the do-foo macro pattern might be a good idea.
2018-01-28T02:11:30Z ebrasca: I have read 1 time do-prime in practical common lisp.
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2018-01-28T02:17:36Z ebrasca: With last refactoring read file changed from someting like 2 million bytes consed to 217,376 bytes consed. XD
2018-01-28T02:18:29Z aeth: careful, eliminating consing can be addictive
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2018-01-28T02:21:36Z ebrasca: aeth: This time it is side effect of making it more readable.
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2018-01-28T02:24:56Z ebrasca: mmm it is [03:21] here
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2018-01-28T02:36:46Z ebrasca: aeth: I think someting like do-prime can work. Thanks you and good nigth.
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2018-01-28T03:41:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-28T03:42:01Z warweasle: Good morning...or as we call it here, almost midnight.
2018-01-28T03:42:35Z beach: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2018-01-28T03:44:43Z warweasle: Well now I feel silly.
2018-01-28T03:45:15Z beach: No need to feel silly.
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2018-01-28T03:46:53Z pjb: ebrasca: yes, it looks like you have a common loop in those functions. You could put it in a high order function to which you would pass the body as a closure.
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2018-01-28T03:47:54Z cryptomarauder: I just want to thank the entire lisp community for NOT using camelCase. There are a few exceptions but generally that schizophrenic code style hasn't infected the holy order of the knights of lambda calculus. *tips hat*
2018-01-28T03:49:01Z Bike: https://i.imgur.com/i9TpuYC.jpg
2018-01-28T03:49:47Z warweasle: cryptomarauder: That's only possible because of lisp itself. That whole '-' sign being a math thing and all...
2018-01-28T03:50:02Z pjb: ebrasca: something like: (map-cluster (lambda (i name …) …) cluster) or (docluster ((i name) cluster) …)
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2018-01-28T03:50:05Z warweasle: Only lisp could transend mathematics itself.
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2018-01-28T04:05:05Z cryptomarauder: warweasle: that's true. I think I was lead to sensible style when I read the style guide of the Linux kernel. Ill admit, im a bit of a Torvalds fanboy. But really that's because hes nearly always right which is rare. Rare like Theo de Raadt being wrong.
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2018-01-28T04:35:40Z aeth: Proper camelCase in CL would be worse than camelCase in most languages.
2018-01-28T04:35:54Z aeth: you'd have to write fooBar like |fooBar|
2018-01-28T04:36:17Z aeth: otherwise it just becomes FOOBAR
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2018-01-28T04:39:26Z warweasle: aeth, That would be FOOBAR
2018-01-28T04:40:20Z warweasle: Programming question: In your favorite language, write a program to make a string all upper case....
2018-01-28T04:41:09Z aeth: I would argue, though, that if you're going to start escaping things, might as well use real spaces instead of camelCase. (defclass |foo bar factory| ...)
2018-01-28T04:41:38Z aeth: Only Common Lisp can scale to truly long class names. Java has nothing on CL here.
2018-01-28T04:43:47Z beach: warweasle: (string-upcase string)
2018-01-28T04:43:50Z pjb: aeth: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (DEFUN fooBar (noNeedForEscapes noneedForesCapes) (+ noNeedForEscapes noneedForesCapes)) (fooBar 1 2) --> 3
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2018-01-28T04:44:21Z pjb: aeth: there's even the :invert option, but I prefer :preserve.
2018-01-28T04:44:33Z aeth: pjb: (1) I wouldn't want to program in a project that requires doing that to the readtable. (2) You'd have to have a lower case alias for everything or you just made your program even more unreadable than merely using camelcase
2018-01-28T04:44:37Z aeth: But, yes, valid
2018-01-28T04:45:05Z aeth: I shouldn't have said "you'd have to write", I should have said "you would probably write"
2018-01-28T04:45:24Z pjb: aeth: actually case sensitivity is nice.  C uses it. Modula-2 uses it.  Most languages use it.
2018-01-28T04:45:42Z pjb: Anyways, good night!
2018-01-28T04:45:45Z aeth: CL has a lot less of a need for case-sensitivity because of its many namespaces for things afaik.
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2018-01-28T04:47:40Z aeth: pjb: good night
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2018-01-28T05:37:20Z dmiles: does anyone know where i can get the lisp version of this function https://gitlab.com/ivargasc/ecl/blob/develop/src/c/compiler.d#L2737 ?
2018-01-28T05:38:11Z dmiles: i assume its left the repository some time ago
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2018-01-28T05:39:28Z Bike: alexandria has a few functions for parsing lambda lists.
2018-01-28T05:40:33Z dmiles: right on.. there are just a few .lsp files that depend on it.. so i started writing it by hand and relized it must already exist
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2018-01-28T05:41:10Z dmiles started realizing how many he is ending up writting by hand
2018-01-28T05:43:07Z dmiles: i almost
2018-01-28T05:43:45Z dmiles didnt have a complete thought there just an acidently bump of an <eter> key
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2018-01-28T05:52:53Z asarch: Where could I learn about the "standard library" of Common Lisp?
2018-01-28T05:53:42Z asarch: In the sense of, "this function is for..., that function is for..."?
2018-01-28T05:56:41Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
2018-01-28T05:56:53Z |3b|: ^ is (more or less) the standard
2018-01-28T05:57:59Z |3b|: for example http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cons.htm tells you what CONS does
2018-01-28T05:58:32Z |3b| isn't sure if that is exactly what you are looking for or not
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2018-01-28T06:06:02Z asarch: Well, if this was C, the description of all the functions in <string.h> for example
2018-01-28T06:06:36Z beach: clhs 16
2018-01-28T06:06:36Z specbot: Strings: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/16_.htm
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2018-01-28T06:08:02Z beach: asarch: ↑
2018-01-28T06:08:23Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-28T06:08:27Z asarch: Thank you very much guys
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2018-01-28T06:10:39Z asarch: I was reading the chapter 2 from "Land of LISP: Learn to Program in Lisp, One Game at a Time!" book and I found the flet command
2018-01-28T06:11:49Z beach: clhs flet
2018-01-28T06:11:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2018-01-28T06:12:01Z beach: asarch: Try to use the right terminology.  Common Lisp doesn't have any "commands".  FLET is a "special operator".
2018-01-28T06:12:14Z asarch: D'oh! :'-(
2018-01-28T06:12:21Z asarch: The book uses the term "command"
2018-01-28T06:12:31Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2018-01-28T06:12:37Z asarch: https://www.amazon.com.mx/gp/product/1593272812/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1#reader_B004AE3P4K
2018-01-28T06:12:47Z asarch: You can check the sample chapter in Amazon
2018-01-28T06:13:06Z asarch: That book is a lie!
2018-01-28T06:13:16Z beach: I don't think I would like that book.
2018-01-28T06:14:04Z |3b| thinks it is an OK simplification if it succeeds at its goal of making it interesting to get started
2018-01-28T06:14:45Z asarch: Ah, touche!
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2018-01-28T06:19:23Z |3b| has the impression it tries to present (lisp) programming as "interesting/fun thing you might want to investigate more on your own" as opposed to "boring/difficult thing that must be pounded into your head by authority figures", which seems like a good goal :)
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2018-01-28T06:19:59Z |3b|: hopefully those it convinces would then be motivated to go beyond the simplifications
2018-01-28T06:19:59Z beach: I am not saying the book is bad.  I am saying I personally don't like that style.
2018-01-28T06:20:21Z beach: It is perhaps a generational kind of thing.
2018-01-28T06:20:34Z beach: Just the cover makes me not want to open it.
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2018-01-28T06:21:25Z whoman: why is it so expensive ?
2018-01-28T06:21:29Z whoman: it is a great book
2018-01-28T06:21:49Z beach: whoman: So that the publishing company can become rich at the expense of the author.
2018-01-28T06:21:56Z whoman: the art style is personal, very well done. its inspired realm of racket but i havent seen that
2018-01-28T06:22:10Z whoman: $750?
2018-01-28T06:22:18Z |3b|: because amazon :/
2018-01-28T06:23:19Z beach: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517120584&sr=8-1&keywords=land+of+lisp
2018-01-28T06:23:51Z beach: 37 UKP
2018-01-28T06:24:01Z asarch: If a book would cost, for example, $100 USD. How much exactly do you earn from every book?
2018-01-28T06:24:46Z beach: 40 € at amazon.fr
2018-01-28T06:24:46Z |3b|: does .mx have some different interpretation of $ ? prices seem odd there in general if interpreted as USD
2018-01-28T06:25:01Z beach: I think you are right about that.
2018-01-28T06:25:17Z beach: asarch: A few $ at most.
2018-01-28T06:25:18Z asarch: 40 € for every book?!!!
2018-01-28T06:25:18Z |3b|: randomly clicking around front page, razor blades for $99
2018-01-28T06:25:28Z asarch: Wow!!!
2018-01-28T06:25:31Z asarch: That's great!
2018-01-28T06:25:45Z beach: asarch: The author makes a few $ at most.
2018-01-28T06:25:53Z asarch: ~10%
2018-01-28T06:25:53Z beach: I was quoting the price of the book in different countries.
2018-01-28T06:26:01Z asarch: D'oh! Sorry
2018-01-28T06:26:59Z beach: asarch: That is why I use self publishing instead.  The margin is higher, and I can set the price myself (it has to be higher than the printing cost).
2018-01-28T06:27:30Z asarch: It seems that nowadays is more profitable to become a YouTuber than a writer :-(
2018-01-28T06:27:32Z |3b|: ok, apparently peso uses $ also :/
2018-01-28T06:27:49Z beach: |3b|: That's what I was guessing.
2018-01-28T06:28:02Z asarch: $1USD = ~$20MXP
2018-01-28T06:28:16Z |3b|: ok, that makes sense then :)
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2018-01-28T06:30:22Z asarch: "Programming languages teach you not to want they cannot provide" —Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp
2018-01-28T06:30:38Z asarch: The best quote I ever read!
2018-01-28T06:30:50Z beach: It is also ungrammatical.
2018-01-28T06:30:52Z asarch: s/to want/to what what/
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2018-01-28T06:30:59Z whoman: what
2018-01-28T06:30:59Z asarch: Yeah, a typo. Sorry
2018-01-28T06:31:25Z asarch: Programming languages teach you not to want what they cannot provide
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2018-01-28T06:31:32Z asarch: Sorry, sorry
2018-01-28T06:31:36Z whoman: aha
2018-01-28T06:31:44Z beach: There is definitely some truth to that.
2018-01-28T06:31:58Z asarch: https://github.com/clojurians-org/lisp-ebook/blob/master/ANSI%20Common%20LISP.pdf
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2018-01-28T06:32:41Z beach: That looks like an illegal copy.
2018-01-28T06:33:32Z asarch: "(defun addn (n) #'(lambda (x) (+ x n))). What does addn look like in C? You just can't write it"
2018-01-28T06:33:49Z beach: Correct, you can't write it.
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2018-01-28T06:38:23Z asarch: Anyway. Thank you very much guys
2018-01-28T06:38:39Z asarch: Have an excellent and a great day :-)
2018-01-28T06:38:59Z asarch: See you later
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2018-01-28T09:03:07Z dmiles: hrrm echolisp used to do..  (in-package 'system)
2018-01-28T09:03:24Z dmiles: ecolisp*
2018-01-28T09:03:36Z dmiles: was that never legal?
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2018-01-28T09:04:16Z dmiles: (due to in-package being a macro?)
2018-01-28T09:07:25Z phoe: dmiles: (QUOTE CL-USER) is not a string designator
2018-01-28T09:07:48Z dmiles: right!
2018-01-28T09:07:52Z phoe: I mean
2018-01-28T09:07:55Z phoe: (QUOTE SYSTEM)
2018-01-28T09:08:21Z phoe: in-package is a macro and accepts #1=a string designator, not something that evals to #1#
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2018-01-28T09:08:44Z dmiles: just weird that ecolisp used to let itself get away wiuth that.. sinc ei swear i have seen at least one other lisp do that as well
2018-01-28T09:11:15Z dmiles: some lisps nowadays if they want to do that will do   (%in-package 'system)
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2018-01-28T09:11:37Z dmiles: (defmacro in-package (name)   `(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)      (%in-package ,(string name))))
2018-01-28T09:12:53Z dmiles: anyhow i just updating the 1995 files to use #:system  instead of 'system
2018-01-28T09:14:00Z phoe: dmiles: maybe don't update the files
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2018-01-28T09:14:11Z phoe: if you're interpreting another lisp dialect, maybe just shadow IN-PACKAGE
2018-01-28T09:14:21Z phoe: with something that implements it as a function.
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2018-01-28T09:16:08Z dmiles: LarKC, CYC which used their own lisp dialects do impl as a function.. and a few years later 2001 when renamed to ECL.. it started doing "SYSTEM"
2018-01-28T09:16:20Z dmiles: (EcoLisp that is)
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2018-01-28T09:17:15Z dmiles: I am using EcoLisp to bootstrap my WAM-CL lisp as back in the old days EcoLisp had not C-ified everyhting yet the way ECL has
2018-01-28T09:18:23Z dmiles: "back when things were much simpler" :)
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2018-01-28T09:21:16Z dmiles: I think what happens is a developer will convert a .lisp function to .c .. get tired of converting that every build and start improving it from C while erasing the original .lisp
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2018-01-28T09:22:31Z dmiles: so even if you grep the source repostiory the .lisp function is way behind the improvments maintained in C
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2018-01-28T09:34:36Z shrdlu68: Good afternoon, fellow sentient beings!
2018-01-28T09:35:03Z phoe: GOOD MORNING, FELLOW HUMAN.
2018-01-28T09:39:14Z shrdlu68: I've been messing around with compression, and I'm pleased that I've written something that appears to beat gzip in terms of compression ratio. It's based on a simple binary arithmetic coder.
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2018-01-28T09:59:31Z Folkol_: Sounds good, shrdlu68! Did you try different gzip compression levels? How do they compare in speed?
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2018-01-28T09:59:42Z stylewarning: Hey folks
2018-01-28T10:01:47Z stylewarning: Is there a WAM implemented in CL?
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2018-01-28T10:03:41Z dmiles: https://github.com/sjl/temperance
2018-01-28T10:04:42Z dmiles: the only one i have heard of
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2018-01-28T10:06:37Z dmiles: oh i guess there is something here:  https://books.google.com/books?id=ciQEHp39pAkC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=wam+common+lisp&source=bl&ots=Vyt8Y3nGMe&sig=zk2lk81j_0FPOVdTJtCrvsR1ugU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjct76ptPrYAhXFjVQKHWqwANcQ6AEIeDAN#v=onepage&q=wam%20common%20lisp&f=false
2018-01-28T10:07:44Z stylewarning: sjl is really becoming a star Lisp coder
2018-01-28T10:08:01Z stylewarning: (Not to be confused with a *Lisp coder)
2018-01-28T10:09:07Z stylewarning: I’ve been interested in donating money to a pool to restore and modernize old Lisp projects from the 70s–90s.
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2018-01-28T10:09:46Z stylewarning: There’s so much useful but bitrotted code.
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2018-01-28T10:11:05Z stylewarning: For instance, I discovered Yale Haskell, which seems to have CL compatibility. Would love to see it run again.
2018-01-28T10:11:07Z dmiles: the AI-ish programs of those eras especially?
2018-01-28T10:11:22Z stylewarning: Yes
2018-01-28T10:12:27Z dmiles: I'd like to see people put such programs together using a common blackboard (to share overlapping datastructures)
2018-01-28T10:13:08Z dmiles: a 700 million dollar project called CYC was started to do that
2018-01-28T10:13:45Z stylewarning: What would a “common blackboard” give to anyone
2018-01-28T10:14:12Z dmiles: its allows SHRDLU to move arround MUD objects and not just blockworld
2018-01-28T10:14:49Z dmiles: it allows DAYDREAMER to use SWALEs data which daydreamer was designed for but never got a chance
2018-01-28T10:15:26Z dmiles: allows PAM and SAM to work togethere
2018-01-28T10:15:35Z stylewarning: I think that’s maybe too optimistic. (:
2018-01-28T10:15:50Z dmiles: Plan applier mechanism and Script applier mechanism
2018-01-28T10:16:25Z dmiles: such a system got built and is now currated by Cycorp
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2018-01-28T10:17:09Z stylewarning: I don’t buy the “got built” part in the sense you’ve described
2018-01-28T10:17:40Z stylewarning: AFAIK they built some huge DB of common knowledge with some reasoning skills
2018-01-28T10:18:21Z dmiles: you are correct not even as employees has been allowed to combine any of the above systems :P
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2018-01-28T10:19:21Z dmiles: those *some* systems did get put in.. such as SHOP2 + a charniac parser or two
2018-01-28T10:19:51Z dmiles: those/though
2018-01-28T10:20:10Z dmiles: bit those systems are bitrotting even in Cyc
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2018-01-28T10:20:49Z dmiles: (as most of the new employees are into machine learning)
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2018-01-28T10:22:22Z dmiles: here is a chanriac like output (to see what i am talking about   ...  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rdI_f-2YnX0e2RD6rGAY57YAqzLj2xHsk36m5HT6SoM/edit )
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2018-01-28T10:22:46Z dmiles: erm sorry a HSPG parser
2018-01-28T10:23:11Z dmiles: such a program can and shold be combined with a bl;ackboard
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2018-01-28T10:24:33Z stylewarning: Idk maybe maybe not
2018-01-28T10:24:52Z stylewarning: What I want is far more humble: make old code work again
2018-01-28T10:25:08Z dmiles: "AFAIK they built some huge DB of common knowledge with some reasoning skills"  <- very close.. what they built was a Knowledge Representation language that was ideal for how programs would share data
2018-01-28T10:25:56Z dmiles: (of course along with what you said.. they just dont promote that part of the project.. which btw was the only reason for funding)
2018-01-28T10:27:44Z dmiles is just very irritated at cycorp right now
2018-01-28T10:28:17Z stylewarning: dmiles: I’m irritated with a big bag of companies!
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2018-01-28T10:49:33Z dmiles: anyhow that has been my lifes mission for a long time.. to combine those old AI programs into a Inference engine
2018-01-28T10:51:21Z dmiles: just recreating what i've used at various publicly funded projects
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2018-01-28T10:52:46Z dmiles: (i used the word "recreation" only so to say that there is not much technological innovation required)
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2018-01-28T11:23:43Z megachombass: hello to all! the help beggar is back again for a final round!
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2018-01-28T11:46:38Z stylewarning: Ask away
2018-01-28T11:48:38Z megachombass: well, i want my code to do the same thing, but written in different way: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
2018-01-28T11:48:51Z megachombass: i want to add redundancies and things like that
2018-01-28T11:49:33Z stylewarning: That loads an ad on mobile but doesn’t load any code
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2018-01-28T11:51:46Z megachombass: well one sec
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2018-01-28T11:52:19Z megachombass: https://codepaste.net/w12ady
2018-01-28T11:55:05Z stylewarning: Definitely rough around the edges
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2018-01-28T11:57:18Z megachombass: want to modify it as much as posible
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2018-01-28T12:27:39Z jackdaniel: why?
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2018-01-28T12:38:41Z phoe: to make the professor not notice that this is not original contentf
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2018-01-28T12:45:47Z megachombass: exactly
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2018-01-28T12:49:06Z megachombass: so here i call to your originality to add some useless but fancy things in it
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2018-01-28T12:57:32Z jackdaniel: so basically you ask us to help you cheating?
2018-01-28T12:57:39Z phoe: yes, he was
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2018-01-28T13:13:49Z megachombass: not really cheating, just to be creative
2018-01-28T13:16:32Z Shinmera: It's still derivative and thus likely prohibited.
2018-01-28T13:16:46Z Shinmera: Not to mention morally objectionable in any case.
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2018-01-28T13:53:40Z megachombass: pjb: hi!
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2018-01-28T14:06:38Z pjb: megachombass: hi!
2018-01-28T14:07:05Z pjb: megachombass: you know, nowadays, you just cannot copy anything or get help from any programmer without the teacher being able to EASILY and trivially know it.
2018-01-28T14:07:46Z megachombass: well, he cant know what ive done by myself and what not
2018-01-28T14:07:52Z megachombass: right now, i wont add more functionalities
2018-01-28T14:07:57Z megachombass: just code it propelly
2018-01-28T14:08:09Z megachombass: whats wrong with this let syntax (let (vm (make-vm 1000)) (vm2 (make-vm 1000)) fibo1 fibo2 fact1 fact2)
2018-01-28T14:08:48Z pjb: megachombass: current DNA-research, machine learning and artificial intelligence techniques exist to easily 1- match source code with other source code to determine their common ancestor, whatever the transformation you make on it (notably, renaming, things you can do with replace-regexp, are completely transparent), and 2- identify the AUTHOR of a chunk of code!
2018-01-28T14:09:11Z megachombass: +, teacher got absolutly no idea what is our coding level, even wonder if he know who i am
2018-01-28T14:09:19Z pjb: megachombass: basically, if your teacher cares, he will run the program on the code, and he will know, line by line, who wrote it, what git repo it comes from, etc.
2018-01-28T14:09:44Z _death: you should also know that the lisp community isn't that big, that some professors reside here, and that this channel's log is publicly available
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2018-01-28T14:09:54Z pjb: megachombass: nothing is wrong in the syntax of: (let (vm (make-vm 1000)) (vm2 (make-vm 1000)) fibo1 fibo2 fact1 fact2)
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2018-01-28T14:10:10Z pjb: megachombass: now for the semantics, it probably doesn't try to do what you think.
2018-01-28T14:10:12Z megachombass: then i fked up somewhere ,let me recheck
2018-01-28T14:11:28Z pjb: megachombass:  it means: create a variable named VM, bind it to NIL. create a variable named MAKE-VM, bind it to 1000.  Call the function vm2, with as argument the result of the call of the function make-vm with as argument 1000.  Ignore the result.  Evaluate a free variable fibo1. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fibo2. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fact1. Ignore the result.  Evaluate a free variable fact
2018-01-28T14:11:28Z pjb: Return its value.
2018-01-28T14:12:05Z pjb: megachombass: https://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/
2018-01-28T14:12:36Z pjb: megachombass: http://www.aicbt.com/authorship-attribution/
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2018-01-28T14:12:51Z pjb: megachombass: https://books.google.fr/books?id=waUzDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA286&lpg=PA286&dq=identify+code+author&source=bl&ots=xKeviX41nO&sig=mztxKotHQkwV_xbqe3dqug6lzQI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX6oy66_rYAhXKBcAKHQGbDpwQ6AEITTAF#v=onepage&q=identify%20code%20author&f=false
2018-01-28T14:12:56Z pjb: Even on compiled code, of course.
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2018-01-28T14:13:49Z megachombass: hum
2018-01-28T14:13:57Z megachombass: but we've changed alot of things
2018-01-28T14:14:04Z pjb: megachombass: so, seriously, remember the first thing we told you: write it yourself!
2018-01-28T14:14:11Z pjb: Nothing!
2018-01-28T14:14:29Z megachombass: i have like what, 9 h left xd
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2018-01-28T14:14:42Z megachombass: and if i try to rewrite from scrath, 100% i end up doing the same thing
2018-01-28T14:15:14Z pjb: megachombass: just time to write an essay explaining what you've done, what problem you have, and make a planing indicating how much time you'd need to implement the project.
2018-01-28T14:15:39Z _death: oh, and don't forget the panopticon.. it's easy to forget about the panopticon
2018-01-28T14:16:25Z pjb: _death: what do you mean?
2018-01-28T14:16:27Z megachombass: if i send him an essay
2018-01-28T14:16:28Z megachombass: without code
2018-01-28T14:16:33Z megachombass: ill get a nice and gentle 0/20
2018-01-28T14:17:07Z pjb: megachombass: oh, true, if I was a lisp teacher, obviously I would already be on all the lisp irc channels, the lisp newsgroups, the lisp forums, and they'd be logged.
2018-01-28T14:17:26Z pjb: megachombass: notice how beach routinely ask people whether their new in #lisp, and check them in his logs…
2018-01-28T14:17:31Z megachombass: in any case its specified i couldn't get help tho
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2018-01-28T14:21:07Z megachombass: and to avoid banhammer, i will clearly specified (thanks to pjb for his help on this project, without him this wouldnt exist)
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2018-01-28T14:24:28Z pjb: megachombass: but seriously, at this point if you want to save your skin,  writing a project report explaining the failure, how it occured, and what you could do to recover and complete the project (whatever time you'd need), is IMO the best option.
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2018-01-28T14:26:04Z megachombass: wich failure?
2018-01-28T14:26:24Z pjb: You didn't complete the project, implementing a VM able to run the compiler.
2018-01-28T14:27:43Z ebrasca: Good afternoon.
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2018-01-28T14:29:38Z megachombass: actually is not that
2018-01-28T14:29:51Z megachombass: actually is i didnt implement a compiler that produces code for the vm
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2018-01-28T14:36:20Z ebrasca: pjb, aeth : Finally I have refactor to this : http://termbin.com/wgsm
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2018-01-28T14:50:07Z _death: ebrasca: there is still some duplication that can be factored
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2018-01-28T14:54:59Z pjb: ebrasca: are you sure? I had the impression the then branch of the if #x0f was common?
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2018-01-28T14:59:34Z beach: I have to agree with _death.  There is a lot of duplication.
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2018-01-28T15:47:44Z ebrasca: _death: Here 1 with less duplication : http://termbin.com/mqrl .
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2018-01-28T16:24:49Z phoe: FLET ADD is not really readable for me. The function name ADD sounds like mathematical addition to me.
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2018-01-28T16:26:11Z phoe: Also in (defmacro do-cluster (fat32 cluster finally if-t &body if-nil) ...)
2018-01-28T16:26:27Z phoe: The lambda list seems weird. IF-T is a single form but IF-NIL is a &body.
2018-01-28T16:27:47Z phoe: ;; Read long name
2018-01-28T16:27:52Z phoe: This should be a separate function.
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2018-01-28T16:34:09Z beach: ebrasca: You have blank lines in mysterious places.
2018-01-28T16:34:28Z pjb: :-)
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2018-01-28T16:35:27Z beach: ebrasca: Your LOOP clauses are not correctly indented.  I suggest you use the slime-indentation contribution to get them right.
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2018-01-28T16:36:31Z ebrasca: beach: What do you mean with slime-indentation contribution?
2018-01-28T16:37:36Z beach: In my .emacs I have: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
2018-01-28T16:37:43Z beach: I mean the last item on that list.
2018-01-28T16:38:11Z ebrasca: beach: What do you mean with "You have blank lines in mysterious places." ?
2018-01-28T16:38:40Z beach: In Common Lisp code, there is usually one blank line between each top-level form and no blank lines anywhere else.
2018-01-28T16:39:13Z beach: So you have several blank lines in places that are not between top-level forms.
2018-01-28T16:39:24Z beach: And I don't see why you have them there, so they are mysterious.
2018-01-28T16:39:56Z ebrasca: I think it help to understand better my code.
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2018-01-28T16:40:44Z beach: ebrasca: Perhaps, but the problem is that you are submitting it for others to read.  So then, you should make it such that it is easier for THEM to read, and the best bet is then to follow established conventions.
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2018-01-28T16:41:39Z beach: Oh, and the indentation of the arguments to MAP is wrong in one place.
2018-01-28T16:42:38Z ebrasca: I try to follow established conventions.
2018-01-28T16:42:50Z beach: I am sure you do.
2018-01-28T16:43:04Z beach: And I am just pointing out a few places where you aren't right now.
2018-01-28T16:43:11Z pjb: ebrasca: basically, if you need to insert a blank line in a function, it means you should refactor it, calling smaller functions.
2018-01-28T16:44:02Z pjb: ebrasca: then, you can also find a smart comment to insert on those blank lines ;-)
2018-01-28T16:44:02Z pjb:  
2018-01-28T16:44:20Z beach: ebrasca: COND has a value, so you can do (setf name (cond ((string= ...)...)))
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2018-01-28T16:44:54Z beach: ebrasca: STACK is a list of things, right?
2018-01-28T16:45:30Z beach: Then use '() to initialize it.  NIL means either the Boolean value false, or some default value.  Not the empty list.
2018-01-28T16:46:22Z beach: ebrasca: '() is the empty list 'nil is the symbol NIL, () is the empty parameter list, and NIL, like I said, is a Boolean or a default value.
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2018-01-28T16:49:01Z beach: On a deeper level, I find it confusing the way your macro introduces variables, such as NAME that then occur without context when the macro is called.  It suggests that the macro does not correspond to a very good abstraction.
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2018-01-28T16:52:35Z ebrasca: beach: I don't understand your last sentence . what context?
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2018-01-28T16:54:34Z ebrasca: beach: My loops lock better with slime-indentation.
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2018-01-28T16:57:45Z asarch: How would you run a system command from Lisp?
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2018-01-28T17:01:01Z ebrasca: asarch: You can use trivial-shell.
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2018-01-28T17:01:29Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-28T17:01:37Z asarch: Thank you very much ebrasca :-)
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2018-01-28T17:04:48Z ebrasca: Here link of full archive : http://termbin.com/gkvi
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2018-01-28T17:06:01Z pjb: ebrasca: so you do read-only? No write-file?
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2018-01-28T17:06:21Z ebrasca: pjb: There is some write opetations done.
2018-01-28T17:06:37Z ebrasca: pjb: I am working now on write operations for FAT32.
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2018-01-28T17:07:17Z ebrasca: pjb: You can write , resize and delete with some limitations.
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2018-01-28T17:12:41Z pjb: ok.
2018-01-28T17:12:43Z pjb: THanks.
2018-01-28T17:14:12Z beach: ebrasca: I guess I can be more specific after you put in comments describing what each function and macro does.  That way, I can more easily tell whether they represent good abstractions.
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2018-01-28T17:17:49Z ebrasca: read-dir-from-cluster return all files/directories in directory.
2018-01-28T17:18:59Z ebrasca: remove-dir-from-cluster write byte #xE5 to all segments of one file/directori.
2018-01-28T17:19:11Z ebrasca: #xE5 idicate it is deleted.
2018-01-28T17:20:03Z ebrasca: write-metadata write some metadata like file-size , last-write-date to file/directory.
2018-01-28T17:21:10Z ebrasca: beach: ^
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2018-01-28T17:24:17Z beach: OK, I am looking for a more detailed description.  Like the type and role of each parameter, especially those of do-cluster.  And I am looking for a kind of contract for it.  Obviously it seems like it introduces variables such as NAME, CHECKSUM, etc.  How does the body (bodies?) use those variables.  What are their values, in each iteration.  What is FINALLY, IF-T, IF-NIL and why are they named that way?  etc, etc, etc.
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2018-01-28T17:25:26Z beach: It looks like sort-name is only available in IF-NIL.  Why?
2018-01-28T17:25:33Z beach: What is it?  etc, etc.
2018-01-28T17:25:41Z ebrasca: beach: IF-T is for what is diferent in if if it is t
2018-01-28T17:26:23Z ebrasca: IF-NIL is sort-name of FAT32 files/directories
2018-01-28T17:26:26Z beach: I am not looking for a one-liner here in the channel.  I am looking for a comment or a docstring, or both, that I can compare with the code.
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2018-01-28T17:27:35Z beach: Oh, so IF-T and IF-NIL are FAT32-defined names?
2018-01-28T17:27:48Z beach: That doesn't sound right to me.
2018-01-28T17:28:44Z beach: Anyway, I need to go.  Time to go cook dinner for my (admittedly small) family.
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2018-01-28T17:31:14Z beach: It seems I have a few more minutes.  I have no idea what you mean by "IF-T is for what is diferent in if if it is t"
2018-01-28T17:31:33Z beach: "in if", in what "if"?
2018-01-28T17:31:40Z beach: You mean the IF inside the macro body?
2018-01-28T17:32:10Z beach: like the (if (= #x0F ...) ...?
2018-01-28T17:32:38Z ebrasca: yea
2018-01-28T17:32:54Z beach: If that is the case, I am now convinced thet do-cluster is not a good abstraction.  Abstractions should be possible to understand by reading the name and the parameters (and the comments to those parameters), not what is inside it.
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2018-01-28T17:33:50Z ebrasca: Maybe better names are : long-dir-name-diff dir-name-diff .
2018-01-28T17:33:51Z beach: So, you are basically saying "Hey, macro user, in order to know how to use this macro, you need to read the code for it.  In fact, you need to read the code for it just in order to understand why the parameters are named the way they are".
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2018-01-28T17:34:32Z beach: I don't know.  I would have to wait for your docstrings and comments to tell.
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2018-01-28T17:51:36Z ebrasca: beach: Now with better comments : http://termbin.com/ypdb
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2018-01-28T18:07:30Z ebrasca: beach: Is it more easy to understand now?
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2018-01-28T19:07:53Z ebrasca: beach: Are you here?
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2018-01-28T19:11:22Z beach: It is too late for me.  I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  I'll look tomorrow morning (UTC+1).
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2018-01-28T19:11:45Z ebrasca: beach: Ok
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2018-01-28T20:07:38Z aeth: ebrasca: From a previous conversation here on docstrings, I came up with this rule for my projects: "Docstrings for functions and methods should mention the inputs, the outputs, and the side effects."
2018-01-28T20:12:13Z aeth: so e.g. your read-file currently says "Return data buffer of file", but that's only the outputs part (except, I guess it mentions the variable file?)
2018-01-28T20:12:45Z aeth: In particular, it's unclear what the variable fat32 does.
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2018-01-28T20:16:19Z ebrasca: aeth: It is fat32 partition data.
2018-01-28T20:17:14Z ebrasca: aeth: How to manage multi line docstrings , or make 1 line docstrings?
2018-01-28T20:18:19Z aeth: I think multi-line docstrings are usually just indented poorly.
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2018-01-28T20:19:11Z aeth: The ones I've seen usually have the first line line up with the function indentation and then the rest aren't indented.
2018-01-28T20:19:14Z pjb: the problem is that the string itself is indented. SO when multiline, I usually start it with a newline (and end it similarly).
2018-01-28T20:20:11Z ebrasca: pjb: What do you mean?
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2018-01-28T20:20:55Z aeth: ebrasca: " RET type your documentation RET type your documentation RET type your documentation RET "
2018-01-28T20:21:00Z aeth: (I think.)
2018-01-28T20:22:00Z ebrasca: mmm all lines start in column 0
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2018-01-28T20:22:44Z ebrasca: aeth: do you mean that for multiline docstrigs? ^
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2018-01-28T20:25:59Z ebrasca: aeth: What are side effects ?
2018-01-28T20:26:46Z aeth: ebrasca: Here's an elaborate example of what pjb's style is, from pjb's own code: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/51d8149b18cdce4626c1d795181d9232c465c883/rdp/rdp-macro.lisp#L48-208
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2018-01-28T20:27:30Z aeth: Notice that the first " lines up with the source indentation and then the rest start at column 0
2018-01-28T20:28:19Z aeth: ebrasca: Side effects would be on something like format, where what format t does depends on *standard-output*
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2018-01-28T20:28:43Z aeth: Side effects would also be if you modify an input data structure.
2018-01-28T20:28:50Z aeth: like e.g. map-into
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2018-01-28T20:29:20Z ebrasca: mmm there is more docstring than code ...
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2018-01-28T20:29:46Z ebrasca: I have read good code is better than documentation.
2018-01-28T20:30:39Z phoe: no.
2018-01-28T20:30:42Z aeth: Okay, I'm actually not sure if interacting with an outside global is a side effect or an input, actually.
2018-01-28T20:30:53Z phoe: people want to know what your library does without reading the code.
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2018-01-28T20:31:05Z aeth: I think setting it might be a side effect, but reading it might be an input. So my format example might be bad.
2018-01-28T20:31:35Z aeth: But I guess FORMAT does interact in a non-functional way with that variable.
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2018-01-28T20:33:37Z aeth: ebrasca: In some sense, "good code is better than documentation" is true, but not in the way you think it is. I think it applies more to comments than to docstrings. If you have to comment some part of your code heavily, you can probably just write it better and not have to comment that part.
2018-01-28T20:34:19Z aeth: But you can't really do that with variable names themselves unless you make their names very long and ugly.
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2018-01-28T20:37:02Z ebrasca: aeth: How much is very long?
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2018-01-28T20:38:14Z aeth: There is nothing stopping you from writing a mini-hyperspec in docstrings, complete with examples, etc. People would probably like that. You would probably need some markup convention for that, though. e.g. Python uses reStructuredText and Java uses JavaDoc
2018-01-28T20:38:14Z oleo: evening
2018-01-28T20:38:31Z aeth: What I gave is the minimum documentation you need to give in a docstring, not the maximum.
2018-01-28T20:39:19Z aeth: Doing something equivalent to docstrings in variable names would (1) capture only the minimum part, (2) look ugly, (3) violate CL style guidelines
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2018-01-28T20:40:17Z aeth: ebrasca: Well, some programmers in other programming languages used concise conventions so they could have their self-documenting variable names while not greatly lengthening their variable names. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation
2018-01-28T20:40:33Z aeth: And it's quite possibly the most hated coding style you can use.
2018-01-28T20:41:26Z aeth: (And it doesn't give anywhere near as much information as a well-written docstring.)
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2018-01-28T20:42:16Z puchacz: hi, in CFFI, how do I define something like this pls?
2018-01-28T20:42:17Z puchacz: void(*)(void*)
2018-01-28T20:42:34Z puchacz: I don't know C so I don't even know what it means
2018-01-28T20:42:44Z puchacz: like here: void sqlite3_result_text16(sqlite3_context*, const void*, int, void(*)(void*));
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2018-01-28T20:43:10Z puchacz: I can see in SQLITE source code it is defined as
2018-01-28T20:43:12Z puchacz: typedef void (*sqlite3_destructor_type)(void*);
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2018-01-28T20:43:22Z puchacz: #define SQLITE_TRANSIENT   ((sqlite3_destructor_type)-1)
2018-01-28T20:44:57Z Bike: it's the type of pointers to functions of one void* argument with return type void.
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2018-01-28T20:45:30Z puchacz: Bike, okay, so is SQLITE_TRANSIENT a function?
2018-01-28T20:45:49Z Bike: it's uh... -1 cast to a function pointer.
2018-01-28T20:45:52Z Bike: that's pretty weird.
2018-01-28T20:46:18Z oleo: a define directive is for c-style macros not ?
2018-01-28T20:46:30Z puchacz: oleo, yes, text based
2018-01-28T20:46:33Z oleo: ok
2018-01-28T20:47:02Z puchacz: Bike, so I am not sure what argument to pass to sqlite_result_text using CFFI
2018-01-28T20:47:03Z ebrasca: aeth: I need to document small functions?
2018-01-28T20:47:11Z Bike: puchacz: a callback
2018-01-28T20:47:36Z borei: hi all
2018-01-28T20:47:57Z oleo: and typedef is like an alias
2018-01-28T20:48:01Z puchacz: Bike: so defcalback first, and it should take :pointer as an argument and return :void, right?
2018-01-28T20:48:06Z borei: lisp doesn't like my type specifier in method definition
2018-01-28T20:48:09Z Bike: think so, yes.
2018-01-28T20:48:16Z borei: (r '(simple-array double-float (4)))
2018-01-28T20:48:25Z puchacz: Bike: so where's the -1 coming into play?
2018-01-28T20:48:36Z Bike: borei: you mean, you tried to use this as a specializer? in the defmethod lambda list?
2018-01-28T20:48:44Z borei: yep
2018-01-28T20:48:50Z Bike: puchacz: i am honestly not sure how to do that in cffi
2018-01-28T20:49:02Z borei: (defmethod (setf translate) ((r '(simple-array double-float (4))) (transform transform-3d)) ..... )
2018-01-28T20:49:08Z puchacz: Bike: and direct fli in lispworks?
2018-01-28T20:49:12Z Bike: borei: point one, don't quote it. point two, not all types are specializers. that type is not a specializer.
2018-01-28T20:49:17Z aeth: ebrasca: You have to have docstrings for every exported function in most styles. For the other functions, it depends on the style.
2018-01-28T20:49:21Z Bike: puchacz: i know even less about that, but you should have support available.
2018-01-28T20:49:32Z aeth: ebrasca: Small functions should have small docstrings, though. At least in general.
2018-01-28T20:49:35Z Bike: borei: defmethod deals with classes and eql specializers.
2018-01-28T20:49:54Z aeth: ebrasca: You can probably fit everything on two lines for small functions.
2018-01-28T20:50:01Z puchacz: Bike: ok, thanks. I will mail them
2018-01-28T20:50:31Z ebrasca: aeth: But i think some names are self explanatori.
2018-01-28T20:51:11Z ebrasca: aeth: like check-boot-jmp or first-data-sector .
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2018-01-28T20:51:55Z aeth: Something like a make-foo could possibly be documented in one line: "Returns a newly allocated foo based on the filename file and the number number"
2018-01-28T20:52:28Z aeth: If it's not complicated, no need to make the documentation complicated.
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2018-01-28T20:53:20Z aeth: If you had a formal style for your docstrings, it would probably make them take up several lines at a minimum.
2018-01-28T20:53:33Z ebrasca: Documentation is hard , don't say it is not hard.
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2018-01-28T20:54:38Z ebrasca: But I sometimes don't remember what output some of my functions ...
2018-01-28T20:55:06Z aeth: The output is the most important part! (at least in CL)
2018-01-28T20:56:19Z aeth: A lot of the tile you might say things like "the number number" in your docstring because your variable name for the input is perfectly named. Sometimes people capitalize the names to make it look a little better, i.e. "the number NUMBER"
2018-01-28T20:56:24Z aeth: s/tile/time/
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2018-01-28T20:56:50Z aeth: But the output can definitely be surprising.
2018-01-28T20:58:14Z ebrasca: I don't like my fat32 implementation.
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2018-01-28T21:01:07Z puchacz: Bike: FYI, changing the argument type from :pointer to :int of sqlite3-result-text lets me pass -1 and it seems to work.....
2018-01-28T21:01:24Z puchacz: C is really relaxed about types :)
2018-01-28T21:01:43Z Bike: more like cffi has no way to say no
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2018-01-28T21:02:45Z puchacz: but it seems that C code is passing -1, straight integer there
2018-01-28T21:03:16Z oleo: since it was textual ?
2018-01-28T21:03:26Z oleo: verbatim -1 ?
2018-01-28T21:03:30Z puchacz: yes
2018-01-28T21:03:39Z oleo: hmmm
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2018-01-28T21:04:00Z puchacz: I think "casting" to function pointer does not do anything in C to actual bitpattern of data in memory..... but I may be wrong, as I don't know C
2018-01-28T21:04:44Z oleo: erm, afaik the layouts from lisp to C types are very different
2018-01-28T21:05:01Z puchacz: but -1 is translated in CFFI
2018-01-28T21:05:03Z oleo: other than that....C side itself is pretty complicated....
2018-01-28T21:05:22Z oleo: no idea
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2018-01-28T21:07:17Z Bike: puchacz: you are correct, that cast doesn't really have to do with the actual value.
2018-01-28T21:07:25Z Bike: also, you can ignore oleo.
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2018-01-28T21:09:07Z puchacz: Bike: which means then that I really can just pass -1 :-)
2018-01-28T21:09:22Z Bike: yes.
2018-01-28T21:09:28Z puchacz: (as you are confirming casting is really no-op at runtime)
2018-01-28T21:09:46Z Bike: that particular cast is.
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2018-01-28T21:18:15Z pjb: ebrasca: yes: basically all that you put in the docstring, you could put it in a declare.
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2018-01-28T21:19:33Z pjb: ebrasca: you only have to invent a language and declaim the declarations ;-)
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2018-01-28T21:20:18Z ebrasca: pjb: I have never read about declare function.
2018-01-28T21:20:41Z pjb: declare is not an operator.
2018-01-28T21:20:54Z ebrasca: ???
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2018-01-28T21:23:05Z Bike: declare is a syntax thing. it only looks like an operator.
2018-01-28T21:24:00Z ebrasca: I have remember it is for safety , speed and types.
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2018-01-28T21:25:16Z pjb: ebrasca: https://codeshare.io/5vXo4y
2018-01-28T21:25:23Z pjb: ebrasca: it is for whatever you want.
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2018-01-28T21:25:31Z pjb: You just need to declare the declarations you use.
2018-01-28T21:25:45Z pjb: Then of course, it may be useful to write tools processing those declarations…
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2018-01-28T21:28:10Z TMA: ebrasca: the main thing is that you can ignore most (if not all) of the declarations except for (declare (special ...))
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2018-01-28T21:29:40Z _death: TMA: not really, an implementation can ignore them, not a programmer
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2018-01-28T21:30:43Z Bike: yeah, a programmer can ignore anything they want. free will, baby
2018-01-28T21:31:20Z _death: I expected that comeback ;)
2018-01-28T21:31:52Z Bike: special is the only one with a straightforward semantic effect though
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2018-01-28T21:40:03Z ebrasca: I don't like someone to ignore my commands less some PC.
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2018-01-28T21:55:06Z pjb: This is why it's important to also write the tools that will interpret your custom declarations.
2018-01-28T21:55:30Z pjb: Then you can call them automatically in your build process, and fail when there are errors.
2018-01-28T21:56:07Z pjb: For example, those pre- and post-condition can be used to generate assertions and use them in tests or in the compiled code.
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2018-01-28T22:05:48Z ebrasca: pjb: I don't know hot to make someting like this.
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2018-01-28T22:11:18Z ebrasca: pjb: Thanks for your tips.
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2018-01-28T22:12:38Z pjb: ebrasca: for example, see common-lisp/lisp/stepper-functions.lisp:678
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2018-01-28T22:13:51Z pjb: I use the stepper declaration to disable the stepper in some functions that cannot be stepped (eg. the functions that are called from the stepper itself or that are too much of a bore to step into).
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2018-01-28T22:15:45Z pjb: ebrasca: elsewhere, I've used declare to declare commands (interactive functions).  In emacs lisp, (interactive) is a declaration. In CL You write (declare (interactive)).
2018-01-28T22:16:14Z pjb: ebrasca: (of course, you can also use a macro such as defcommand in those cases, sometimes it's easier than to process declarations).
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2018-01-28T22:41:20Z stylewarning: hello friends
2018-01-28T22:43:02Z jmercouris: hello
2018-01-28T22:43:35Z stylewarning: jmercouris: how is nEXT going
2018-01-28T22:43:48Z jmercouris: stylewarning: Going pretty good, thank you for asking!
2018-01-28T22:43:57Z jmercouris: GTK release is out, working on a lot of internal stuff, and a new blog
2018-01-28T22:44:09Z stylewarning: neat, lmk when the blog is up
2018-01-28T22:44:15Z jmercouris: Will do!
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2018-01-28T23:01:31Z aeth: If someone was going to add a contract system to CL it would be nice for the type part of it to use type declarations in SBCL and any other CL that uses similar semantics and check-type for the majority of implementations.
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2018-01-28T23:02:36Z mgsk: jmercouris: seeing weird behaviour of tabs in gtk. Sometimes C-x b doesn't show any tabs, and C-[ shows empty pages. Aware of that?
2018-01-28T23:02:48Z aeth: (I'm assuming a contract system in CL would do both runtime type checking and compile time type checking.)
2018-01-28T23:03:05Z jmercouris: mgsk: I'm aware the GTK port is a huge hack :D
2018-01-28T23:03:13Z mgsk: jmercouris: dang!
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2018-01-28T23:03:18Z jmercouris: mgsk: That specific behavior I only knew parts of
2018-01-28T23:03:25Z jmercouris: I'm working on it, don't worry :)
2018-01-28T23:03:32Z jmercouris: Thank you for your report
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2018-01-28T23:06:03Z mgsk: jmercouris: :)
2018-01-28T23:07:07Z jmercouris: mgsk: as a quick aside, if c-x b doesn't show any tabs, type space, and then backspace, it'll refresh the table view, usually :D
2018-01-28T23:08:21Z mgsk: jmercouris: omg it works!
2018-01-28T23:08:42Z jmercouris: Lol yeah, stupid listener functions not getting invoked
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2018-01-28T23:09:06Z mgsk: jmercouris: after that, it goes the whole frame goes blank. No errors/warnings
2018-01-28T23:09:27Z jmercouris: Hmm, that is very mysterious
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2018-01-28T23:09:55Z mgsk: I wonder if it is my window manager? I will try with something normal like gnome
2018-01-28T23:10:15Z jmercouris: I don't think that should have an effect, though the stupidity of GTK has surprised me quite a bit :D
2018-01-28T23:10:20Z isBEKaml: "normal like gnome" :D
2018-01-28T23:10:25Z jmercouris: I was testing in i3 WM
2018-01-28T23:10:40Z mgsk: jmercouris: ah, so that won't be it then
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2018-01-28T23:11:48Z mgsk: Also C-x C-c isn't doing anything
2018-01-28T23:12:00Z jmercouris: Should be calling (gtk:leave-gtk-main)
2018-01-28T23:12:06Z jmercouris: maybe it is getting blocked by some other signal
2018-01-28T23:13:16Z jmercouris: it's too bad you don't have a mac, works like a dream on cocoa
2018-01-28T23:13:35Z mgsk: I do... with linux installed
2018-01-28T23:13:36Z jmercouris: except for using the legacy webkit wrappers on cocoa, hopefully with a new ffigen replacment that can be fixed
2018-01-28T23:13:37Z mgsk: :3
2018-01-28T23:13:50Z jmercouris: hahah nice :D
2018-01-28T23:14:34Z isBEKaml: "Hackinux"
2018-01-28T23:15:12Z jmercouris: I tried installing BSD on my macbook for dual boot, I ended up in tears from frustration
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2018-01-28T23:16:01Z isBEKaml: Surely, you shouldn't have problems installing any BSD on a Mac? Because Mac is derived from BSD?
2018-01-28T23:16:17Z caffe: more likely bootloader problems
2018-01-28T23:16:31Z isBEKaml is currently reading through Loving Lisp online and is bored
2018-01-28T23:16:31Z jmercouris: caffe: Correct
2018-01-28T23:16:47Z jmercouris: Plus a whole slew of driver issues
2018-01-28T23:16:50Z isBEKaml: Ah, bootloader issues. Just use BSD straight up... :D
2018-01-28T23:17:11Z jmercouris: darwin has diverged quite a bit from straight bsd, at least apple isn't freely handing out kexts
2018-01-28T23:18:03Z isBEKaml: Probably - I have never used a mac, too poor to own one
2018-01-28T23:19:45Z p_l: isBEKaml: The "BSDs" that most people recall aren't MacOS ancestors
2018-01-28T23:20:47Z p_l: OSX is derived from OPENSTEP which was derived from NEXTSTEP which is most closely related to OSFMK which is related to original "Mach Unix" in turn related to BSD4
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2018-01-28T23:24:11Z jmercouris: hence the NS prefix everywhere
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2018-01-28T23:24:37Z jmercouris: these days though, technically a Mach kernel, I believe they use shared memory for IPC, which technically disqualifies it
2018-01-28T23:24:45Z jmercouris: I guess it is a "hybrid" kernel, whatever that means
2018-01-28T23:24:53Z p_l: jmercouris: it's Mach
2018-01-28T23:25:05Z jmercouris: I've heard arguments that it is not "pure" enough
2018-01-28T23:25:10Z p_l: also, Mach used shared memory for IPC since the very start
2018-01-28T23:25:20Z p_l: it's part of how it got a bad rep
2018-01-28T23:25:27Z jmercouris: Did it? I thought there was a different mechanism
2018-01-28T23:25:38Z jmercouris: some sort of strange message passing buffer or something
2018-01-28T23:25:53Z caffe: 'hybrid' as in mach 2.5 vs mach 3
2018-01-28T23:26:02Z caffe: mach 3 is a true microkernel
2018-01-28T23:26:04Z p_l: jmercouris: message passing over bits of memory that were shared and unshared using MMU
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2018-01-28T23:26:20Z p_l: caffe: Mach hybridized further in later versions
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2018-01-28T23:26:57Z caffe: i think you mean XNU
2018-01-28T23:27:09Z caffe: which is based on mach 2.5
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2018-01-28T23:27:15Z p_l: OSFMK is sorta an amalgamation of Mach 3 and 4 by now, and that's the basis of XNU
2018-01-28T23:27:25Z caffe: no, 2.5 is
2018-01-28T23:27:48Z p_l: caffe: Apple seems to disagree
2018-01-28T23:28:09Z p_l: (they explicitly mention OSFMK 7.3 as basis)
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2018-01-28T23:28:38Z p_l: and while osfmk might have started on mach 2.5, it didn't stay there
2018-01-28T23:28:53Z isBEKaml: p_l: I didn't really read much into the MacOS (X) divergence. I knew there was NextStep somewhere in its heritage, but NS was derived from BSD line. I don't recall reading about OSFMK -- I'll look that up, thanks
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2018-01-28T23:29:40Z caffe: well 3 is certainly not hybrid
2018-01-28T23:29:43Z p_l: isBEKaml: NS was derived from Mach, and cross-pollinated with OSF/1 mostly, which was BSD-oriented "counter" to AT&T SysV
2018-01-28T23:30:21Z caffe: there is also no "mach 4"
2018-01-28T23:30:23Z caffe: so...
2018-01-28T23:30:40Z caffe: XNU still is a lot closer to 2.5 in design
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2018-01-28T23:32:50Z p_l: there's actually a Mach 4, because development didn't end when CMU released 3.0. OSFMK which started on 2.5, continued to take code from 3.0 and later projects, including a lot of contribution of their own. Mach 4.0 created also official interface for "colocation" i.e. starting servers in kernel space
2018-01-28T23:33:16Z caffe: take code, sure
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2018-01-28T23:34:40Z caffe: still, i can't help but see it as a fork of 2.5
2018-01-28T23:34:45Z p_l: after Mach 3, the research work turned towards more hybrid approaches, especially as Mach IPC security... was problematic for performance
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2018-01-28T23:35:05Z p_l: caffe: well, it did start out as one, and never went full retard^W3.0
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2018-01-28T23:35:54Z p_l: anyway, the closest BSD relationship that OSX has is OSF/1
2018-01-28T23:36:12Z caffe: i'm not sure a drop-in microkernel was ever a good fit for unix to begin with
2018-01-28T23:36:19Z p_l: down to using common kernel codebase (though I believe Apple changed a lot since then)
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2018-01-28T23:36:56Z caffe: which is why 2.5 ended up being more influential than 3
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2018-01-28T23:40:12Z p_l: yes
2018-01-28T23:40:50Z p_l: I think nobody except for GNU went seriously about creating "pure" Mach 3 system
2018-01-28T23:41:45Z p_l: OSFMK was a "pragmatic" system that didn't discard syscalls etc. and incorporated things from newer research, while post-CMU Mach4 project reintroduced formal apis for colocation
2018-01-28T23:44:56Z p_l: lol
2018-01-28T23:45:02Z p_l: sorry, wrong window :D
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2018-01-29T00:10:32Z sigjuice: is https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ down? I get an HTTP response of 502.
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2018-01-29T04:07:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-29T04:07:16Z Colleen: beach: drmeister said 2 hours, 5 minutes ago: In cstify.lisp it looks like there is a redundant (cstify (cdr list)) - is that the case?
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2018-01-29T04:09:33Z beach: ebrasca: You can avoid ugly docstrings in code by using #.(format nil "...")  Then you can use the ~@ format directive that lets you indent the next line in the source code, but that indentation is not part of the string.
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2018-01-29T04:11:40Z beach: ebrasca: I have said this before, but I'll say it again: docstrings are typically meant for the user and not for the maintainer, but they are in a place where the user does not look and the maintainer has to.  Therefore they are noise in the source code.  For that reason, I use (SETF DOCUMENTATION) intsead and I put the docstrings in a separate file.
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2018-01-29T04:21:43Z beach: ebrasca: It is preferable to use signals other than simple errors so that client code can catch the errors by type.  It is also great to provide restarts, so that client code can communicate with the library and invoke possible ways to continue.
2018-01-29T04:24:42Z beach: ebrasca: I'll still wait for the documentation of do-cluster and the functions.
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2018-01-29T06:00:24Z asarch: clhs trivial-shell
2018-01-29T06:00:25Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for trivial-shell.
2018-01-29T06:00:38Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-29T06:00:39Z beach: asarch: That is not part of the Common Lisp standard.
2018-01-29T06:01:04Z beach: asarch: And, because it isn't, it is not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-01-29T06:01:15Z asarch: Using the standard, is it possible to execute a system command?
2018-01-29T06:01:22Z beach: No.
2018-01-29T06:01:31Z asarch: Oh :-(
2018-01-29T06:01:58Z beach: I am willing to bet that very few language standards would have such a function.,
2018-01-29T06:02:03Z beach: s/,//
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2018-01-29T06:04:36Z beach: asarch: What other language have you used that has such a function in the standard?
2018-01-29T06:07:07Z asarch: Well, most of them: C, C++, Perl, Python and even ECMAScript
2018-01-29T06:07:43Z beach: I doubt that you have even read the standard of the C or C++ languages.  Perl and Python don't even have one.
2018-01-29T06:08:45Z asarch: perl -e "system('ls');"
2018-01-29T06:09:10Z beach: I get really annoyed when Common Lisp is held to a higher standard (no pun intended) than other languages.  People willingly program in languages that have no standard, and that can change at the whim of a single person.  But then, when they program in Common Lisp, IT HAS TO BE IN THE ANSI STANDARD, or else IT DOESN'T EXIST to them.
2018-01-29T06:09:21Z beach: asarch: Perl does not have a standard as far as I know.
2018-01-29T06:10:20Z beach: asarch: By "a standard", I mean a document published by an independent organization that is not the one that provides the code for the implementation, so that the document can not change at the whim of the people delivering the code.
2018-01-29T06:11:27Z beach: asarch: Now, you obviously don't seem to know whether such a document exists for the languages that you cited, so why on earth would you require it to even exist for Common Lisp?
2018-01-29T06:11:50Z stylewarning: beach: I think in a lot of cases people simply do not understand the value of having an accessible language standard.
2018-01-29T06:12:00Z beach: Exactly.
2018-01-29T06:12:10Z beach: And that's why I am trying to educate asarch here.
2018-01-29T06:12:54Z stylewarning: beach: A frequent complaint about Lisp that I hear is, "There isn't a lot of Stack Overflow posts about it!" I usually respond by saying, "Fortunately, many answers to your questions can actually be found in the freely available language standard itself."
2018-01-29T06:12:55Z asarch: Well, that's because the Perl/Python "standard" is dictated by a benevolent dictator of life, but I just was wondering. How can I read the arguments passed to a program?
2018-01-29T06:13:06Z stylewarning: Unfortunately, from there, they're expecting some truly opaque standard, like the C++ standard. :)
2018-01-29T06:13:47Z beach: asarch: That is a very different question from the one you asked.
2018-01-29T06:14:28Z beach: asarch: I don't know the answer to it, but I believe UIOP has a function like that.
2018-01-29T06:14:30Z stylewarning: asarch: Arguments passed to a program is a Lisp-dependent thing. But the library that comes with ASDF, called UIOP, provides this.
2018-01-29T06:14:38Z asarch: Don't get excited, this is my first day at France and all I want is: "Excusez-moi monsieur, comment puis-je me rendre à la boulangerie?"
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2018-01-29T06:14:49Z stylewarning: asarch: UIOP:*COMMAND-LINE-ARGUMENTS*
2018-01-29T06:15:11Z asarch: :'-(
2018-01-29T06:16:08Z beach: asarch: I do get upset, but I have nothing against you personally.  I get upset because, like I said, for some reason, people hold Common Lisp to a higher standard than other languages.  And I am sure the reason is what stylewarning is saying, namely that people don't understand the value of an independent standard.
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2018-01-29T06:16:45Z beach: asarch: So you should see my remarks as directed not to you personally, but to all the people who come here and complain about things that are not in the standard.
2018-01-29T06:17:51Z stylewarning: I've been toying with the idea of having a sort of de facto Common Lisp standards committee, to conservatively adopt already tried-and-true de facto standards in the form of CDR's.
2018-01-29T06:18:12Z asarch: Then, cheers! For this great and very exciting programming language o/ :-)
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2018-01-29T06:18:56Z beach: stylewarning: I have a project with similar goals.  It is called WSCL (which stands for Well-Specified Common Lisp, and is pronounced like "whistle").  Have you seen it?
2018-01-29T06:19:10Z stylewarning: beach: No. Where is it?
2018-01-29T06:19:48Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
2018-01-29T06:20:00Z beach: Not much work has been done, but the goals are clearly specified.
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2018-01-29T06:21:55Z stylewarning: beach: this sounds interesting, like a first-order improvement of the standard
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2018-01-29T06:26:29Z beach: Thanks.
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2018-01-29T06:39:53Z stylewarning: Does anybody have a copy of the ASDF best practices document?
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2018-01-29T06:55:20Z phoe: stylewarning: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md
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2018-01-29T07:01:20Z stylewarning: phoe: ah, thanks!
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2018-01-29T08:13:49Z makomo: morning
2018-01-29T08:14:14Z makomo: how did megachombass compiler thing end? did he do it in time?
2018-01-29T08:14:51Z makomo: i also had a deadline until 23:59 yesterday, writing a codegen for a c-like language (given the parsing tree)
2018-01-29T08:15:19Z makomo: my teammate was supposed to do it, but he choked so i had to jump in (same thing happen in his previous exercise too)
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2018-01-29T08:16:22Z makomo: what a ride it was. completely rewrote what he did (which wasn't much anyway) and managed to pull it off. in total ~9 hours of coding
2018-01-29T08:18:05Z makomo: (this probably should have been for #lispcafe, but i forgot :( )
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2018-01-29T08:26:20Z makomo: beach: WSCL seems interesting. found a typo in the README: "and is\ndesign so that each chapter"
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2018-01-29T08:27:16Z pjb: makomo: no, in a very classic way, the requirements increased tenfold as the deadline came closer.
2018-01-29T08:27:43Z pjb: makomo: the requirement was for the VM to be able to run the toy compiler.
2018-01-29T08:28:06Z pjb: makomo: it's not clear if it was "the" toy compiler, or "a" toy compiler compiling the same language.
2018-01-29T08:28:24Z makomo: and the vm was implemented by whom?
2018-01-29T08:28:28Z pjb: makomo: in any case, the existing VM was largely isufficient.
2018-01-29T08:29:49Z pjb: there was one guy who had fun implementing a toy compiler and a toy VM on github (I had same fun at least twice on usenet).  Then his teacher took that toy compiler as an example in his compilation lecture.
2018-01-29T08:30:19Z pjb: makomo: <megachombass> all is base on this guy work : https://github.com/thibaudcolas/clisp-compiler-vm
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2018-01-29T08:31:35Z pjb: makomo: last code: <megachombass> https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
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2018-01-29T08:32:10Z makomo: oh i see, pretty neat
2018-01-29T08:33:22Z makomo: actually, the thing i was doing is pretty similar. the code generation was done for an imaginary processor for which a simulator exists which is used to actually run the code and test the output of the programs
2018-01-29T08:33:31Z pjb: Either he keeps the compiler which is written in CL and uses sexps as is, and he needs a lisp VM with operations such as CONS, CAR, CDR, etc.  Or he rewrites his compiler to use only integers, since the current VM only deals with integers.  What's more, the current VM is not a Von Neuman architecture!
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2018-01-29T08:34:02Z pjb: Namely, the program stored in memory cannot be written by a program in the VM, since as said, the VM only has integers, and the programs contain sexps!
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2018-01-29T08:34:40Z makomo: ohh i see
2018-01-29T08:35:39Z pjb: So, in 22 hours, and being tired, I don't think many people would be able to do it from scratch.
2018-01-29T08:35:50Z makomo: but if the compiler is supposed to compile from Lisp into VM bytecode, couldn't he just compile the compile?
2018-01-29T08:36:05Z makomo: i suppose the compiler isn't powerful enough to handle all of the lisp constructs he had used in his compiler?
2018-01-29T08:36:27Z makomo: the compiler*
2018-01-29T08:36:36Z beach: makomo: Thanks.
2018-01-29T08:37:37Z beach: makomo: Fixed.
2018-01-29T08:37:40Z pjb: makomo: sure, but for this the VM must be able to run it!
2018-01-29T08:37:51Z pjb: makomo: the current compiler generates a sexp.
2018-01-29T08:38:20Z pjb: but the current VM cannot manipulate sexps.   Only integers.
2018-01-29T08:38:21Z makomo: pjb: ohh so the output isn't real VM bytecode but a different representation
2018-01-29T08:38:24Z makomo: right
2018-01-29T08:38:28Z pjb: yes.
2018-01-29T08:38:30Z makomo: beach: :-)
2018-01-29T08:39:49Z pjb: It's funny, because we knew from the start it would be a failure…  So many in the same situation…
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2018-01-29T08:54:49Z makomo: mhm. especially if the person is inexperienced and doesn't know what "to do next" or anticipate problems that might come up and avoid them before they occur
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2018-01-29T10:02:06Z phoe: Does CL have any kind of operator that applies FN consecutively to ARG N times and returns the last result?
2018-01-29T10:02:30Z phoe: like, (apply-n-times 4 #'cdr '(1 2 3 4 5)) ;=> (5)
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2018-01-29T10:02:55Z phoe: I'm thinking of utility libraries here since I don't think it's in the standard.
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2018-01-29T10:04:14Z Shinmera: (loop repeat n for x = foo then (fun x) finally (return x))
2018-01-29T10:04:28Z beach: You beat me to it by seconds.
2018-01-29T10:04:40Z phoe: Shinmera: I want to avoid NIH by writing that loop.
2018-01-29T10:04:51Z Shinmera: It's so tiny you're going to increase maintenance by using a library.
2018-01-29T10:04:59Z fe[nl]ix: a one-liner hardly counts as NIH
2018-01-29T10:05:30Z beach: phoe: Sometimes, it is easier to understand code if it doesn't refer to some external function that has to be looked up in the documentation.  Especially short snippets like this.
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2018-01-29T10:55:41Z Cymew: Everything can be done with LOOP ;)
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2018-01-29T10:58:39Z loke: Yes!
2018-01-29T10:58:41Z loke: LOOP
2018-01-29T10:58:50Z Shinmera: Cymew: Except legible code
2018-01-29T10:59:26Z Cymew: Shinmera: Well, I'm not going to defend it with much empahsis. :)
2018-01-29T10:59:36Z Shinmera: I'm joking anyway.
2018-01-29T10:59:50Z Shinmera: The opportunity for the burn was irresistible
2018-01-29T11:00:14Z makomo: lol
2018-01-29T11:00:17Z Cymew: I repeatedly tear my hair out over LOOP syntax, and smile like a fool when I get it right and it's just so clever.
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2018-01-29T11:00:54Z Cymew: I still think it's a joke MOON played upon us all...
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2018-01-29T11:03:31Z loke: Cymew: LOOP syntax isn't very complicated.
2018-01-29T11:03:47Z Cymew: I still manage so mess it up
2018-01-29T11:03:50Z loke: I do remember feeling confused by it the first time I used it, but these days it's second nature.
2018-01-29T11:04:05Z loke: Cymew: Any particular aspects that are tricky?
2018-01-29T11:04:41Z Cymew: Nah, I just type what feels sensible and sometimes it never makes sense.
2018-01-29T11:05:01Z Cymew: I guess if. I did not dabble in DO it would become more natural.
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2018-01-29T11:08:33Z beach: loke: (loop for x = y then ... for y ...) can be kind of tricky.
2018-01-29T11:08:58Z beach: Not the syntax.  The semantics.
2018-01-29T11:09:35Z beach: Or perhaps I mean (loop for x = bla then (f y) for y ...) I can't remember the details.
2018-01-29T11:10:32Z makomo: beach: i think that example is from ANSI Common Lisp, right? :-)
2018-01-29T11:11:18Z makomo: actually there were 2 but extermely similar, differing only in the ordering of 2 lines or something like that
2018-01-29T11:12:24Z loke: beach: ah, you mean when you have (loop for x = (something y something) for y = (something x something) ...)?
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2018-01-29T11:38:29Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: you can even use Series if you're adventurous
2018-01-29T11:38:46Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: not *that* adventurous
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2018-01-29T11:56:54Z beach: loke: Yes, a variable is used before it is introduced.
2018-01-29T11:57:21Z beach: makomo: I don't know.  I have a few of those in code of my projects.
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2018-01-29T12:25:14Z stylewarning: phoe: show off your leet hacking skills with this code: http://codepad.org/1zalcTgI
2018-01-29T12:25:31Z stylewarning: A way to repeat a function N times, sure to impress family and friends
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2018-01-29T13:19:54Z ebrasca: beach: I am making new abstraction for my fat32.
2018-01-29T13:20:08Z beach: Great!
2018-01-29T13:20:26Z beach: Let me find an example of what I mean by the documentation part...
2018-01-29T13:20:42Z ebrasca: beach: And i think I don't understand what docomentation mean.
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2018-01-29T13:29:59Z beach: ebrasca: Take the documentation of the macro with-preserved-top-level-ness in this file: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Cleavir/CST-to-AST/variables.lisp
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2018-01-29T13:31:28Z kami: Hello #lisp
2018-01-29T13:31:47Z beach: Hello kami.
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2018-01-29T13:33:35Z beach: ebrasca: It would be something that the user of the macro could read, and then he or she could use the macro without knowing how it is implemented.  For example, in your case, it would document what variables the macro intentionally captures in the bodies that you pass it, and it would mention things like the fact that the code of the bodies is repeatedly invoked, how many times they are invoked, and how each invocation is different.
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2018-01-29T13:54:41Z beach: ebrasca: For more documentation ideas, here is an example: http://metamodular.com/cluffer-documentation.pdf
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2018-01-29T13:57:28Z attila_lendvai: did anyone see issues recently with cxml getting repeatedly reloaded by asdf?
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2018-01-29T14:00:01Z Xach: attila_lendvai: i saw them
2018-01-29T14:00:14Z attila_lendvai: cxml.asd is scary...
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2018-01-29T14:00:49Z Xach: I think there is a situation where multiple defsystems in a single .asd will cause unexpected reloads. Not just in cxml's complicated case.
2018-01-29T14:01:00Z Xach: multiple defsystems that do not use the slash convention, that is
2018-01-29T14:01:33Z attila_lendvai: Xach: do you have by any chance a simple way to reproduce it?
2018-01-29T14:01:46Z Xach: attila_lendvai: I haven't looked into it further, sorry.
2018-01-29T14:02:02Z attila_lendvai: no worries, thanks for the feedback!
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2018-01-29T14:02:19Z Xach: https://github.com/mrossini-ethz/physical-quantities/blob/master/physical-quantities.asd triggers it, though
2018-01-29T14:02:47Z Xach: https://github.com/mmaul/cl-influxdb/blob/master/cl-influxdb.asd too
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2018-01-29T14:05:34Z attila_lendvai has a simple way to reproduce and writes a mail to asdf-devel
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2018-01-29T14:16:22Z ebzzry: Do we have a list of implementations that currently ship with ASDF 3.3(.1)?
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2018-01-29T14:25:35Z ebzzry: Is clbuild inaccessible at http://gitorious.org/clbuild2?
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2018-01-29T14:39:25Z jackdaniel: only sbcl and they regret it
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2018-01-29T14:44:39Z makomo: beach: since your documentation always looks solid, what's your opinion on literate programming?
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2018-01-29T14:51:54Z pjb: makomo: just start your programs with #| and end them with |#    Parenthesize the code parts with |# (code) #|
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2018-01-29T14:52:14Z pjb: Instant literate programming in lisp.
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2018-01-29T14:57:26Z beach: makomo: I think the original idea is completely bogus.  It was necessary because Pascal requires a very strict order between definitions and instructions, and that order is contrary to how Knuth wanted to present it to the human reader.  The language we use does not have that restriction.
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2018-01-29T14:58:44Z makomo: pjb: hah
2018-01-29T14:58:54Z beach: makomo: So I guess my opinion about it will depend on how it is defined for a language such as Common Lisp.
2018-01-29T14:59:57Z dlowe: I kind of like the idea of an essay with code embedded in it that can be executed as a whole. But that's as a learning device, not as a programming practice.
2018-01-29T15:00:02Z makomo: beach: hmm. well if we put aside the fact that it was partly necessary because of Pascal's restrictions, what do you think about the general idea of literate programming: writing a book first and foremost and only then code
2018-01-29T15:00:14Z dlowe: I'm thinking of the forth compiler done in a literate style.
2018-01-29T15:00:44Z makomo: dlowe: yeah, i'm not sure how practical something like literate programming is when a program continues to evolve
2018-01-29T15:00:46Z makomo: i don't know though
2018-01-29T15:00:47Z dlowe: Otherwise it sounds like a gigantic error-prone waste of time
2018-01-29T15:01:30Z makomo: for example, the Axiom CAS system uses literate programming (and it's written in Common Lisp + a language built on top of CL called SPAD)
2018-01-29T15:01:33Z beach: makomo: Well, I don't think there is a temporal order like that.  But I do agree that the communication with the maintainer of the code is more important than communication with the compiler, if that is what you mean.
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2018-01-29T15:02:03Z makomo: and there's also a book called "Understanding MP3" that uses literate programming with C to implement a full-blown mp3 parser and player
2018-01-29T15:02:50Z dlowe: Right. a learning device.
2018-01-29T15:02:52Z pjb: makomo: beach's right, see this article that passed on hackernews yesterday: http://lightsonsoftware.com/writing-code-that-reads-like-a-story/
2018-01-29T15:02:54Z beach: And, yes, I agree that the way literate programming is typically used, makes it totally impossible to have the code evolve.
2018-01-29T15:03:00Z makomo: oh, also the book "Physically Based Rendering" uses literate programming
2018-01-29T15:03:11Z makomo: dlowe: yeah, i agree with that i guess
2018-01-29T15:03:18Z pjb: beach: however, literate programming has the advantage that it stress on the human reader and documentation first.
2018-01-29T15:03:26Z pjb: the code is only a side effect of that process.
2018-01-29T15:03:27Z beach: Absolutely.
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2018-01-29T15:03:35Z asarch: beach, require('child_process').exec('ls', function(err, stdout, stderr) {if (err) {console.log("\n", stderr);} else {console.log(stdout);}}); in http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
2018-01-29T15:03:41Z asarch: JFYI :-)
2018-01-29T15:03:42Z pjb: But we're coders! :-)
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2018-01-29T15:03:47Z phoe: I suddenly wished for a counterpart to REMOVE.
2018-01-29T15:03:56Z pjb: I mean, lispers even write books using sexps!
2018-01-29T15:04:10Z beach: pjb: So the challenge is to emphasize the communication with the person reading the code, while keeping the possibility of evolving the code.
2018-01-29T15:04:11Z phoe: Like, so it would keep things instead of removing it.
2018-01-29T15:04:12Z dlowe: I like to follow a practice of writing documentation first.
2018-01-29T15:04:23Z phoe: Is such a thing implemented in one of the portability libraries?
2018-01-29T15:04:27Z pjb: Yep.  And do that with meta- or meta-meta- code! :-)
2018-01-29T15:04:27Z phoe: s/portability/utility/
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2018-01-29T15:05:05Z makomo: pjb: something like Scribble?
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2018-01-29T15:05:19Z makomo: i've seen fare use it extensively
2018-01-29T15:06:07Z pjb: Yes, there are several such tools.
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2018-01-29T15:06:30Z pjb: ccldoc, the script I use to write my resume, etc.
2018-01-29T15:07:01Z makomo: that's very intriguing! :D
2018-01-29T15:07:54Z pjb: It's the SGML idea, only using sexps instead of SGML tags.
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2018-01-29T15:10:29Z Shinmera: makomo: Generally I think the documentation and the code should be separate. The code is an implementation detail, and requires a different level of description than documentation. Mixing the two together (as with literate programming) thus seems like a bad idea.
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2018-01-29T15:11:36Z Xach: Who was it who, when paul graham said that arc code was its documentation, asked him if "inverts a matrix" was clearer than the code for inverting a matrix?
2018-01-29T15:11:37Z beach: Shinmera: I think that depends on which type of documentation we are talking about.
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2018-01-29T15:11:56Z Xach: McCarthy? Norvig? Someone not as famous? I remember it as someone famous.
2018-01-29T15:12:28Z beach: Shinmera: Take a library for instance.  The documentation for how client code should use it should be separate from the code.
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2018-01-29T15:13:11Z beach: Shinmera: But the documentation explaining why the code is written in a particular way should definitely by next to the code, i.e. the maintainer documentation.
2018-01-29T15:13:17Z Shinmera: beach: When I say documentation I generally mean the user-facing one. Documentation about the internals would be comments.
2018-01-29T15:13:40Z beach: Shinmera: That convention might not be shared by everyone.
2018-01-29T15:13:44Z Xach: mccarthy
2018-01-29T15:13:46Z Shinmera: Sure.
2018-01-29T15:15:13Z makomo: Xach: any references for that? would be interesting to read
2018-01-29T15:15:38Z dlowe: there should be at least three parts to documentation: a tutorial, a playbook, and a reference. The tutorial eases a user into what it possible, the playbook helps the user solve the most common problems, the reference has details for use once the interface elements have been selected.
2018-01-29T15:15:56Z pjb: Shinmera: agreed. But I would want tools to link the different parts and track the dependencies.  Specifications <-> Analysis <-> Design <-> Code <-> Tests.  So if you navigate to some place in the code, you get a window with all the relevant sections of the Specifications, the Analysis, the Design and the Tests.  If you modify the Specifications, you get a list of all the places impacted in the Analysis the Design, the Code, the 
2018-01-29T15:15:56Z pjb: etc.
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2018-01-29T15:16:15Z mfiano: Xach: The matrix inversion slow path for non-orthonormal matrices is a sight to see ;)
2018-01-29T15:16:35Z makomo: Shinmera: beach: yeah, my opinion is pretty much the same
2018-01-29T15:16:42Z Shinmera: pjb: That would certainly be welcome
2018-01-29T15:17:19Z Xach: mfiano: http://www.paulgraham.com/ilc03.html
2018-01-29T15:17:27Z Xach: mfiano: 2nd footnote
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2018-01-29T15:17:40Z makomo: wow, that's hidden!
2018-01-29T15:18:06Z pjb: Shinmera: That was the idea behind the OO CASE tool Objecteering/Modelio; but it would probably involve more integrated tools, more like InterLisp…
2018-01-29T15:18:22Z mfiano: Xach: haha. and here is a macroized version which uses symbol macros to hide all the arefs: https://github.com/mfiano/gamebox-math/blob/master/src/matrix/matrix4.lisp#L465-L518
2018-01-29T15:18:42Z Xach: self-documenting
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2018-01-29T15:19:24Z makomo: damn :D
2018-01-29T15:19:48Z Shinmera snorts
2018-01-29T15:19:54Z Shinmera: Weak! Check this out. https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-matrices/blob/master/ops.lisp#L470
2018-01-29T15:19:54Z pjb: I wouldn't write it like this…
2018-01-29T15:20:21Z dlowe: seems like something generateable via macro
2018-01-29T15:20:41Z Xach: that is a thing of beauty
2018-01-29T15:20:45Z makomo: my. god. :-)
2018-01-29T15:20:46Z mfiano: Well yeah, I said it was macroized :)
2018-01-29T15:20:55Z pjb: I would write the source code as: {\displaystyle \mathbf {A} ^{-1}={\frac {1}{\det \mathbf {A} }}\left[\left(\operatorname {tr} \mathbf {A} \right)\mathbf {I} -\mathbf {A} \right].}
2018-01-29T15:21:06Z makomo: ";; Lots of juicy inlined crap."
2018-01-29T15:21:07Z pjb: and write the macros and function to compile that to efficient lisp code.
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2018-01-29T15:21:08Z makomo: :')
2018-01-29T15:21:10Z Xach: i like how the parens are like a rotated waveform
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2018-01-29T15:22:47Z mfiano: But there is a fast path inversion for when a matrix is orthonormal, which is pretty short. luckily this is usually the case in graphics programming
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2018-01-29T15:23:11Z mfiano: one which is very short/cheap
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2018-01-29T15:24:20Z Shinmera: dlowe: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-matrices/blob/master/ops.lisp#L20-L26
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2018-01-29T15:24:47Z dlowe: Shinmera: hah. okay.
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2018-01-29T15:26:27Z makomo: and there's a nested backquote right below that comment
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2018-01-29T15:27:17Z pjb: On the other hand, maths and physics code is a little different, in that 1- it's "well" specified and documented in maths and physics books ;-), and 2- we often want optimized code to implement those algorithms.
2018-01-29T15:27:31Z pjb: So basically readability doesn't import much; only to ensure that it's bug free.
2018-01-29T15:28:00Z pjb: If you can generate fast code, the better, but if not, just write it by hand as ugly as it is…
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2018-01-29T15:28:13Z mfiano: Xach: Do we have a rough eta for the next dist? Wondering if I have time during the busy work week to sneak in one last fix/feature to a library
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2018-01-29T15:29:19Z Xach: mfiano: probably tomorrow.
2018-01-29T15:29:41Z Shinmera didn't get any libraries done this month
2018-01-29T15:29:43Z Shinmera feels sad
2018-01-29T15:29:44Z mfiano: Ok, so overwork myself and probably introduce more problems than it solves :)
2018-01-29T15:30:39Z Xach: Think of it as an RSS test
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2018-01-29T15:35:15Z ebzzry: jackdaniel: why?
2018-01-29T15:35:29Z Shinmera: ebzzry: Because it broke some systems.
2018-01-29T15:35:35Z jackdaniel: a lot of libraries broken
2018-01-29T15:36:08Z Xach: I don't know about a lot - there are some that are broken, and some loaded too often, and many more warnings that I think are not very useful.
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2018-01-29T15:38:52Z dlowe: The road from a permissive reader to a strict reader is one filled with sharp edges and tears.
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2018-01-29T15:39:14Z phoe: sharp signs*
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2018-01-29T15:41:46Z Shinmera: So, who here is planning to attend ELS'18?
2018-01-29T15:42:02Z Xach: I am interested but not yet planning!
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2018-01-29T15:44:15Z Shinmera: Would love to meet you in person again.
2018-01-29T15:44:47Z beach: Me and my (admittedly small) family are going to be there.  I booked travel and hotel(s) a few days ago.
2018-01-29T15:44:51Z jackdaniel: I have already tickets and an apartment
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2018-01-29T15:45:01Z jackdaniel: booked
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2018-01-29T15:45:37Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: beach: Where are you staying?
2018-01-29T15:45:46Z beach: jackdaniel: You and your wife may have to come to Malaga for dinner one of the days we are there.  We are going to be in Marbella only from Sunday to Wednesday.
2018-01-29T15:45:58Z beach: Shinmera: La Villa I think it's called.
2018-01-29T15:46:43Z beach: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.5117552,-4.8847067,19z
2018-01-29T15:46:58Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: we have a flat booked from airnb in Marbella
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2018-01-29T15:47:10Z jackdaniel: with a view at an ocean
2018-01-29T15:47:16Z jackdaniel: sea*
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2018-01-29T15:47:20Z beach: Nice!
2018-01-29T15:47:53Z jackdaniel: we'll be there 14-21, so if anyone stays longer (or comes earlier) it will be nice to meet you
2018-01-29T15:48:05Z jackdaniel: beach: we'd love to :)
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2018-01-29T15:48:12Z beach: jackdaniel: But we arrive in Malaga the Friday before and we leave the Friday after.
2018-01-29T15:48:14Z Shinmera: I'll be staying here: http://www.booking.com/Share-HVvtDE
2018-01-29T15:48:25Z beach: jackdaniel: So we have several nights in Malaga.
2018-01-29T15:48:29Z Shinmera: It's within walking distance from the conference
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2018-01-29T15:49:48Z Shinmera: It's a bit of a shame that there was no good big hotel offer this time around. Having a party of lispers at the same place was really nice the previous two years.
2018-01-29T15:50:47Z AeroNotix: It's Spain, sleep on the beach
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2018-01-29T16:06:40Z sjl: mfiano: sorry to rain on your parade, but defstar is GPLv3
2018-01-29T16:07:07Z sjl: so depending on it in an MIT licensed lib is probably impossible
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2018-01-29T16:07:48Z sjl: if it's any consolation, I was surprised by the same thing, and regretfully spent a good hour tearing it out of all my stuff
2018-01-29T16:08:40Z mfiano: Yeah I want to eventually replace that, but I wonder how legal it is considering I'm not distributing it, but Quicklisp is pulling everything down on a user's machine.
2018-01-29T16:09:47Z sjl: I would think a court would consider that distributing.  "The user's web browser requested foo.tgz from my server, I didn't push it to them" is similar.
2018-01-29T16:10:18Z mfiano: Would a court consider Quicklisp itself infringing on the GPLv3, having everything together in the quicklisp dir?
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2018-01-29T16:10:55Z dlowe: the license interpretation depends heavily on what is considered a dependency of a program
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2018-01-29T16:11:09Z dlowe: so quicklisp doesn't depend on the programs it manipulates
2018-01-29T16:11:12Z sjl: Since quicklisp doesn't actually rely on the code, it just treats it as data, I doubt it would be a derivative work.
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2018-01-29T16:12:26Z oleo: dam, clicked too fast and closed my irc client too...lol
2018-01-29T16:12:29Z jackdaniel: mfiano: there is a clear distinction between "derivative work" and a "mere aggregation"
2018-01-29T16:12:53Z mfiano: Ok then, I'll have to fix that
2018-01-29T16:13:01Z sjl: Someone should do a clean-room reimplementation of defstar (or something like it).  It's a useful idea that more people would use if it were more permissively licensed.
2018-01-29T16:13:21Z sjl: Or maybe we should all just switch to Shen.  Meh.
2018-01-29T16:13:24Z jackdaniel: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#MereAggregation (from faq)
2018-01-29T16:13:29Z mfiano: Pushed high up on my priority list. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I recently went through my software and culled GPL dependencies, but apparently didn't look hard enough :/
2018-01-29T16:13:34Z jackdaniel: what is defstar?
2018-01-29T16:13:48Z jackdaniel: nvm, I'll look myself
2018-01-29T16:13:50Z sjl: jackdaniel: https://bitbucket.org/eeeickythump/defstar/
2018-01-29T16:13:51Z jackdaniel: sorry for being lazy ;)
2018-01-29T16:14:05Z jackdaniel: thx
2018-01-29T16:14:13Z ebrasca: beach: I have change my do-cluster for : http://termbin.com/tjeb
2018-01-29T16:14:14Z oleo: marbella seems nice
2018-01-29T16:14:16Z oleo: eheh
2018-01-29T16:15:10Z sjl: (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) foo)) (defun foo (x y) ...) => (defun* (foo -> fixnum) ((x fixnum) (y fixnum)) ...)
2018-01-29T16:15:47Z jackdaniel: syntactic sugar is a death of parenthesis ;-)
2018-01-29T16:16:12Z beach: ebrasca: That is WAY better than it was.
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2018-01-29T16:16:58Z jackdaniel: but looks useful indeed
2018-01-29T16:17:32Z ebrasca: beach: But now I need to rewrite allmost all my code.
2018-01-29T16:17:40Z mfiano: sjl: I appreciate that you brought that to my attention. This is a huge deal as that library is a foundation for pretty much everything I write.
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2018-01-29T16:17:47Z jackdaniel: on the other hand I'm not sure if it can work as desired (that is – declamation being part of macroexpansion – does spec guarantee that it will be processed by a compiler?)
2018-01-29T16:17:57Z beach: ebrasca: That's part of the job description.
2018-01-29T16:17:58Z sjl: mfiano: yeah, better to discover it earlier rather than later
2018-01-29T16:18:43Z Bike: jackdaniel: i would assume the defun* expands into a progn of declaim and then defun?
2018-01-29T16:18:50Z beach: ebrasca: Just as the author of a book writes several versions before being content with the result, programmers often have to do the same.
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2018-01-29T16:19:39Z dlowe: it looks like it would be pretty trivial to duplicate under a more forgiving license.
2018-01-29T16:19:41Z mfiano: Oh books. I should have a few arriving today, yours included sjl
2018-01-29T16:20:13Z beach: I just realized, there must be some excellent flamenco restaurants in Malaga.
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2018-01-29T16:20:45Z sjl: Bike: it does expand into a declaim+defun, though there's more functionality than just the bare expansion
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2018-01-29T16:21:03Z mfiano: dlowe: Indeed. I only used it for brevity/laziness. I usually stay away from those sorts of libraries.
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2018-01-29T16:21:35Z beach: jackdaniel: That sounds like something we should do, i.e. take our wives to a flamenco restaurant in Malaga.
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2018-01-29T16:21:50Z sjl: it can insert check-type forms, handles optional/keyword/rest args, has pre/post-condition features
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2018-01-29T16:22:00Z AeroNotix: Does defstar allow for any optimizations? I.e. will the type hints tell the compiler to do anything different?
2018-01-29T16:22:02Z jackdaniel: beach: sounds like a plan :)
2018-01-29T16:22:25Z sjl: It would probably be not too tough to reimplement the basic typechecking api
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2018-01-29T16:22:41Z sjl: AeroNotix: depends on the compiler and the optimization settings.  All it does it the declarations.
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2018-01-29T16:23:17Z AeroNotix: Purposefully not looking at the code
2018-01-29T16:23:30Z AeroNotix: seems like something relatively simple to implement when reading the README
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2018-01-29T16:24:05Z sjl: "seems simple to implement" is the programmer family crest
2018-01-29T16:24:31Z AeroNotix: yeah at first it seems simple. Not saying IS DEFINITELY simple.
2018-01-29T16:24:38Z sjl: I'll tell you that it's 1.3k lines of code
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2018-01-29T16:24:52Z sjl: (I've already looked at the source when trying to track down a bug, so I'm spoiled)
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2018-01-29T16:25:30Z AeroNotix: unclean
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2018-01-29T16:28:07Z sjl: I think if you limit yourself to "make some macros that make type declaration less tedious" and ignore all the pre/post condition stuff you could do it in far fewer lines.
2018-01-29T16:28:28Z sjl: But still, handling rest/optional/key args and defmethod/defgeneric args is nontrivial.
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2018-01-29T16:29:11Z AeroNotix: yeah I just thought to make a toy which just dealt with positional args and basic declair/declaim expansion
2018-01-29T16:29:12Z jackdaniel: Bike: right, it've got confused a little
2018-01-29T16:29:20Z AeroNotix: seems like it would cover the majority of use-cases.
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2018-01-29T16:29:35Z sjl: That sounds like a good start.
2018-01-29T16:30:18Z AeroNotix: Anyone familiar with dialyzer in Erlang?
2018-01-29T16:30:27Z AeroNotix: Has anything like that appeared for CL?
2018-01-29T16:30:47Z mfiano: Speaking of licenses being a problem, cffi pulls in babel which is MIT but admits to stealing LLGPL code: https://github.com/cl-babel/babel/blob/cd4183b5767e65a718d199e4dfa5bd5f61370d4d/NOTES#L4-L6
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2018-01-29T16:30:52Z mfiano: How much of a problem is this?
2018-01-29T16:31:33Z jackdaniel: if you use it as a library, then this is not a problem at all
2018-01-29T16:32:28Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: how does it work if you used something as a library and then at runtime modified some functions?
2018-01-29T16:32:42Z AeroNotix: or if, for example, a library exposed a dynamic variable to override
2018-01-29T16:33:05Z jackdaniel: AeroNotix: I describe licensing implications here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-license.html
2018-01-29T16:33:28Z jackdaniel: (don't get discouraged by "ECL" in post name, I talk about other licensing models as well)
2018-01-29T16:33:50Z mfiano: LLGPL is sort of a custom license. It has never been tested in a court, so I don't think even a lawyer can answer that
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2018-01-29T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: here is LLGPL preamble: http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html
2018-01-29T16:34:49Z AeroNotix: Is code written by an AI derivative work? If I write an AI capable of writing code, who owns the code?
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2018-01-29T16:35:08Z AeroNotix: or would that fit under the normal "compiler output is not covered"
2018-01-29T16:35:22Z jackdaniel: mfiano: llgpl is lgpl + preamble. also testing in court isn't a good argument – license is what it is - you have many countries and ruling may be different etc
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2018-01-29T16:36:01Z jackdaniel: AeroNotix: depends on the license. in case of GPL result of your code is not covered by the license
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2018-01-29T16:36:22Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: yes, I assumed AI authored code would be covered in a similar way
2018-01-29T16:37:02Z beach: jackdaniel: This looks like the best bet so far: http://www.restaurantevinomio.es/en/
2018-01-29T16:37:14Z oleo: are there any descriptions of libraries of quicklisp you can get at with quicklisp ?
2018-01-29T16:37:23Z Xach: oleo: no
2018-01-29T16:37:32Z oleo: ok
2018-01-29T16:37:58Z mfiano: I wonder how many MIT libraries actually steal code from incompatibly-licensed software without mention. babel makes me worried, especially since they never even fixed the problem they identified.
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2018-01-29T16:39:32Z jackdaniel: beach: promotinal video doesn't make it clear if it is a flamenco restaurant ;)
2018-01-29T16:39:49Z beach: Look further down.  There is a video of a performance.
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2018-01-29T16:40:43Z jackdaniel: ah, much better
2018-01-29T16:40:44Z beach: And the menu looks great!
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2018-01-29T16:41:23Z jackdaniel: heh
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2018-01-29T16:42:04Z jackdaniel: I'm getting back to my cl-charms tutorial, see you \o
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2018-01-29T16:42:16Z beach: So long jackdaniel.
2018-01-29T16:42:45Z sjl: jackdaniel: are you writing a tutorial for it?  that would be welcome, it could use some additional docs.
2018-01-29T16:42:59Z jackdaniel: sjl: I'm also fixing some problems along the way
2018-01-29T16:43:05Z sjl: cool
2018-01-29T16:43:16Z sjl: I have some half-baked PRs for it I've been meaning to send.
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2018-01-29T16:55:11Z phoe: Just to be sure: in GF dispatch, are EQL specializers more specific than class-based dispatch?
2018-01-29T16:55:13Z jackdaniel: hm, repository seems to be not very responsive
2018-01-29T16:55:30Z ebrasca: beach: Some hard probles in old abstration are easy to do now.
2018-01-29T16:55:42Z Bike: phoe: yah.
2018-01-29T16:55:51Z phoe: Bike: thanks.
2018-01-29T16:56:00Z phoe: That was my intuition but I wanted to be sure.
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2018-01-29T16:56:25Z Bike: that's uh.... 7.6.6.1.2
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2018-01-29T17:02:30Z beach: ebrasca: Excellent!
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2018-01-29T19:10:28Z pjb: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/the-best-se-paper/ -> Fixing Faults in C and Java Source Code: Abbreviated vs. Full-Word Identifier Names
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2018-01-29T19:16:21Z mfiano: sjl: defstar does more than (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) foo)) (defun foo (x y) ...) => (defun* (foo -> fixnum) ((x fixnum) (y fixnum)) ...)
2018-01-29T19:16:41Z sjl: I'm aware of that
2018-01-29T19:16:56Z mfiano: Ok, just going off of your previous message
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2018-01-29T19:17:48Z sjl: 2018-01-29 16:20:45     <sjl>     Bike: it does expand into a declaim+defun, though there's more functionality than just the bare expansion
2018-01-29T19:17:49Z sjl: 2018-01-29 16:21:50     <sjl>     it can insert check-type forms, handles optional/keyword/rest args, has pre/post-condition features
2018-01-29T19:18:01Z Bike: ?
2018-01-29T19:18:10Z mfiano: also inserts the corresponding DECLARE/THE/BLOCK/etc forms
2018-01-29T19:18:29Z sjl: yes
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2018-01-29T19:23:58Z krwq: hey does anyone know if slime has any hook which is being triggered after repl is fully usable?
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2018-01-29T19:26:09Z pjb: krwq: probably, the easiest way would be to write something in ~/.swank.lisp
2018-01-29T19:26:27Z pjb: You can send messages from swank to slime using the swank/slime rpc.
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2018-01-29T19:27:14Z pjb: krwq: http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414
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2018-01-29T19:29:37Z krwq: Thanks pjb! I didn't know about .swank.lisp but was planning to call something in emacs by myself :)
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2018-01-29T20:43:25Z Hamps in this video you will see how to become an administrator on which network you want http://j.gs/ANj8
2018-01-29T20:43:31Z Hamps in this video you will see how to become an administrator on which network you want http://j.gs/ANj8
2018-01-29T20:43:37Z Hamps in this video you will see how to become an administrator on which network you want http://j.gs/ANj8
2018-01-29T20:43:43Z Hamps in this video you will see how to become an administrator on which network you want http://j.gs/ANj8
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2018-01-29T21:47:49Z stylewarning: Hello friends.
2018-01-29T21:47:57Z jmercouris: hello!
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2018-01-29T21:50:45Z papachan: hello
2018-01-29T21:50:56Z stylewarning: What are y'all hacking on?
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2018-01-29T21:51:40Z Xach: I am hacking on building quicklisp dists from within a fresh vm, to shake out issues of lingering state
2018-01-29T21:51:48Z Xach: So much lingering state!
2018-01-29T21:52:01Z Xach: I am having an issue with cl+ssl not initializing properly for some reason.
2018-01-29T21:52:12Z Xach: this is my first try with debian 9.
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2018-01-29T21:52:18Z jmercouris: Can anyone remind me of the OS where every program runs as a standalone VM?
2018-01-29T21:52:22Z Xach: works fine on my debian 8 system
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2018-01-29T21:54:52Z jmercouris: Xach: same packages installed in both systems?
2018-01-29T21:55:10Z mason: jmercouris: Qubes?
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2018-01-29T21:56:08Z Xach: jmercouris: Not entirely sure.
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2018-01-29T21:57:32Z jmercouris: mason: Yes! Thank you
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2018-01-29T21:58:06Z mason: jmercouris: It was on the edge of my memory but I couldn't recall, so I read down the DistroWatch list until it popped into focus.
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2018-01-29T21:59:36Z mason: Hey, a general question... Is there a CL library that will let me do line-oriented socket IO without threading or having to resort to manually buffering input until I see a valid line ending show up?
2018-01-29T21:59:42Z jmercouris: mason: I kept thinking "Balloons" was the name for some reason, all my queries involving balloons of course came up short :D
2018-01-29T21:59:47Z mason: TCP socket I/O I mean.
2018-01-29T21:59:57Z mason: jmercouris: Heh. But you had the right idea - simple shapes.
2018-01-29T22:00:52Z mason: jmercouris: Imagine the project developers' glumness when the recent kernel side-channel vulnerabilities were announced, obviating the security afforded by heavyweight VMs. :P
2018-01-29T22:01:22Z mason: So, no one's leaping up with an answer, and I have to wonder if I'm thinking about this wrong somehow. I'd think a line-oriented library would be the first thing anyone would want.
2018-01-29T22:01:32Z Shinmera: mason: You can use read-line on any stream.
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2018-01-29T22:02:08Z mason: Shinmera: But, won't that block? I want multiple sockets and I want a line returned when one's ready, but without explicit threading. So, implemented with select or similar.
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2018-01-29T22:02:38Z mason: So: "Anyone have a line ready?" "Yes, here's a list of sockets and their lines."
2018-01-29T22:02:46Z Shinmera: That's completely different from what you first described
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2018-01-29T22:03:16Z Shinmera: And also I'd think that's too application specific to be "the first thing anyone would want"
2018-01-29T22:03:20Z mason: It's not entirely different. I didn't note the desire to not block, but it was implied by the "without threading".
2018-01-29T22:03:34Z mason: Shinmera: Line-oriented organization?
2018-01-29T22:03:49Z Shinmera: non-blocking line-oriented multi-sockets
2018-01-29T22:03:58Z mason: Like, the IRC we're using now, or email, or HTTP, or almost everything else we use...?
2018-01-29T22:04:23Z mason: Ah, well. Yeah. But it seems like large classes of software would want it, and yet, it exists almost nowhere. Erlang maybe.
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2018-01-29T22:04:48Z Shinmera: Because people just write a standard blocking algorithm and then use a thread per socket
2018-01-29T22:04:59Z Shinmera: Works just fine.
2018-01-29T22:05:00Z mason: Ignore the "line oriented" part and think of it as structured data where line-oriented is just one example of it.
2018-01-29T22:05:10Z mason: A thread per socket doesn't scale.
2018-01-29T22:05:24Z Shinmera: Well now you're introducing yet another non-standard constraint.
2018-01-29T22:05:36Z Xach: mason: For what it's worth, when I did that, I treated everything from the network initially as binary and used epoll.
2018-01-29T22:05:39Z _death: Go has https://golang.org/pkg/net/textproto/ suppose a lispy design of it may work
2018-01-29T22:06:08Z Xach: I did that for communicating with DNS and http servers to set hard timeouts.
2018-01-29T22:06:16Z mason: I wrote one for Perl but now I want one for Lisp, and I don't see why I have to solve this each time. :P
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2018-01-29T22:06:33Z Xach: mason: basic-binary-ipc might help? i think it has some multiplexing things in it.
2018-01-29T22:06:38Z Shinmera: mason: Because you have constraints outside the norm?
2018-01-29T22:06:44Z mason: Xach: But yeah, that's what I've done thus far. It's all binary, I parse it and figure out when I've got a usable chunk to peel off.
2018-01-29T22:06:47Z Xach: Shinmera: Not really.
2018-01-29T22:06:51Z mason: Shinmera: I don't, actually.
2018-01-29T22:07:03Z Xach: mason: Sorry to suggest something I haven't personally tried - I've been meaning to. It might not suit.
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2018-01-29T22:07:20Z mason: Shinmera: As I explained to you, I want something that damned near every network service does, only they all have to implement it independently, which strikes me as weird.
2018-01-29T22:07:31Z mason: Xach: Ah, will look.
2018-01-29T22:07:48Z Shinmera: mason: I'm just saying I'm not surprised it doesn't exist.
2018-01-29T22:08:05Z mason: I'll look at basic-binary-ipc
2018-01-29T22:08:24Z mason:  and textproto and if all else fails I'll just write it myself and share.
2018-01-29T22:09:27Z Xach: mason: I go the binary route because I find it harder to handle trying to customize encoding error handling, line ending conventions, etc. for character streams, and I haven't had much luck with bivalent streams, but I can predict binary streams pretty well.
2018-01-29T22:09:38Z mason: Xach: You may have a winner there. I want to see how they implement it, but it initially looks right.
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2018-01-29T22:09:56Z mason: Thank you all.
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2018-01-29T22:11:28Z Shinmera: mason: More libraries, even smaller wrappers to make things trivial to get going with, are always welcome.
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2018-01-29T22:12:41Z mason: Shinmera: I want to spend a little time with Xach's basic-binary-ipc suggestion, but if it doesn't quite fit I'll plan on contributing something.
2018-01-29T22:13:29Z Shinmera: Well, even if b-b-i does do the trick, it might need a bit of work out of which making a library might be useful.
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2018-01-29T22:57:37Z norserob: Hi, I am trying to use libdrm on linux from lisp. Looked at cl-drm on github, and it works ok for some sthings. But I want to access framebuffers, and it looks like I need to do some ioctl calls. So far this fails, not sure why. I put an example in a gist: https://gist.github.com/rfolland/6f0aba4171519881f938040d9d0f237b
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2018-01-29T23:10:40Z Xach: norserob: where does the constant come from
2018-01-29T23:10:41Z Xach: ?
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2018-01-29T23:33:33Z norserob: Xach: I got it from a very instructive C program by D.Herrmann at https://github.com/dvdhrm/docs/tree/master/drm-howto. I printed the value from there. It is calculated by a macro, I'll need to look into that. But it looks like I'm getting there anyway now, I got a better result after setting some of the values on the struct before doing the ioctl call. Forgot to do that in the small example in the gist. I
2018-01-29T23:33:38Z norserob: think I might be ok now...
2018-01-29T23:34:31Z norserob: I want to get the examples by Herrmann working in ccl before moving on with my own stuff.
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2018-01-30T00:42:13Z jasom: mason: b-b-i provides the primitives that you can build your library off of, but you'll have to create a buffer for each socket and fill them in as you go, then add the logic for detecting newlines
2018-01-30T00:42:33Z mason: jasom: Yeah, that seems reasonable.
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2018-01-30T03:03:30Z asarch: In: (with-open-file (a #p"/etc/passwd") (read-line a)), what is #p?
2018-01-30T03:05:32Z pjb: asarch: it's a dispatching reader macro.
2018-01-30T03:05:41Z pjb: asarch: read chapter 2.
2018-01-30T03:06:05Z asarch: What is the equivalent for while (feof(fp) != NULL) {...} from C?
2018-01-30T03:06:07Z pjb: asarch: also, consider: com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd
2018-01-30T03:06:29Z asarch: From what book?
2018-01-30T03:06:43Z pjb: asarch: the Hyperspec!
2018-01-30T03:07:26Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-30T03:07:32Z asarch: Thank you very much pjb :-)
2018-01-30T03:07:43Z pjb: asarch: there's no equivalent, because it is silly.
2018-01-30T03:07:56Z pjb: asarch: feof checks it too late, the file might have grown since!
2018-01-30T03:08:15Z asarch: How would you do that?
2018-01-30T03:08:18Z pjb: asarch: instead, eof is tested at the time you try to read past the end of file.
2018-01-30T03:08:26Z asarch: ...
2018-01-30T03:08:40Z asarch: What?...
2018-01-30T03:08:43Z pjb: asarch: you have two ways of detecting it: returning a value, or signaling a end-of-file condition.
2018-01-30T03:08:46Z pjb: clhs read
2018-01-30T03:08:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2018-01-30T03:09:21Z asarch: Thank you very much once again :-)
2018-01-30T03:09:28Z asarch: I owe you a couple of beers
2018-01-30T03:10:12Z pjb: Note, you can always save the detection of eof into some hash-table and write a feof function to get it, if you want to reproduce the bugs of C…
2018-01-30T03:10:37Z pjb: asarch: alternatively, in the case of file-stream, you can test (= (file-position stream) (file-length stream)).
2018-01-30T03:12:06Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-30T03:12:11Z asarch takes notes...
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2018-01-30T03:17:20Z pjb: asarch: but similarly after this test of file-length, it may change, so if the test is false, it doesn't mean you will be able to read anything.   If it returns true, it doesn't mean you won't be able to read something.
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2018-01-30T04:01:27Z pierpa: just tell him what he probably is looking for?  asarch, probably you want: (loop for line = (read-line in nil nil) while line do ...)
2018-01-30T04:03:42Z pjb: pierpa: fish
2018-01-30T04:04:02Z pierpa: yeah, but up until a certain point :)
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2018-01-30T04:07:46Z asarch: Wow! That is fascinating :-)
2018-01-30T04:08:25Z pierpa: most input functions can either signal a condition OR return nil on end of file
2018-01-30T04:08:57Z pierpa: that's what the extra arguments to read-line are doing
2018-01-30T04:11:57Z pjb: asarch: so read-line returns usually a string, so returning NIL when eof is discriminating.
2018-01-30T04:12:09Z pjb: asarch: however, read can read nil and return it too.
2018-01-30T04:12:21Z pjb: asarch: there's one object at hand that read cannot read: the stream itself!
2018-01-30T04:12:39Z pjb: (loop for object = (read stream nil stream) until (eql stream object) do …)
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2018-01-30T04:13:55Z pierpa: right. Thanks pjb. I must correct myself: most input functions can either signal a condition or return a value you choose on end of file.
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2018-01-30T04:22:18Z asarch: Question: if Common Lisp is not a multi-threating environment per se, why the "feof checks it too late, the file might have grown since!" condition?
2018-01-30T04:23:06Z pillton: You are assuming that there is only one process running at any given moment.
2018-01-30T04:23:13Z pjb: asarch: the operating system is a multi-task, multi-user operating system.
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2018-01-30T04:24:31Z asarch: But OS and CL are two different entities, right?
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2018-01-30T04:24:48Z pjb: Yes, and files are common entities.
2018-01-30T04:25:11Z pjb: This is because the OS and CL are different entities that you cannot know when the file will grow (or shrink).
2018-01-30T04:26:00Z asarch: pierpa, I just looking for something a la C: while (feof(fp) != NULL) {fscanf(fp, "%s", buffer); printf("%s", buffer);}
2018-01-30T04:26:23Z pjb: asarch: this C code is wrong! It's buggy!
2018-01-30T04:26:49Z asarch: I know, I know
2018-01-30T04:27:17Z pjb: It should be written: while(EOF!=fscanf(fp,"%s",buffer)){printf("%s",buffer);}
2018-01-30T04:27:26Z pjb: which is the equivalent of the above LOOP.
2018-01-30T04:27:42Z asarch: Yeah! \o/
2018-01-30T04:28:15Z pjb: asarch: reproducing C bugs in CL will require more work; as I explained above, you can define a feof function, by memorizing the result of the last read operation for each stream!
2018-01-30T04:28:44Z pjb: asarch: read man feof and try to understand what that means!
2018-01-30T04:31:11Z pjb: Notice that C doesn't have multiple values, conditions, or types associated to objects.  This is so defectuous!  This is why the function fread() cannot distinguish between end-of-file and error! Hence the need to store the eof status in the stream record, and retrieve or clear it with feof and clearerr.
2018-01-30T04:31:27Z asarch: :'-(
2018-01-30T04:31:28Z asarch: Ok
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2018-01-30T04:31:46Z pjb: asarch: but this let you forget that those are not synchronous operations! You're just accessing a memorized flag in a structure.
2018-01-30T04:32:22Z pjb: The main problem of lispers, is that C programmers don't know the first thing about C…
2018-01-30T04:32:41Z pjb: After that, there will be people who don't believe in God…
2018-01-30T04:33:16Z asarch: The first thing of C? What is that?
2018-01-30T04:33:47Z pjb: C programmers don't know anything about C. They're full of wrong ideas about C.
2018-01-30T04:34:35Z pjb: asarch: for example, that you don't write a while(!feof(fp)) loop.  You're a lame C programmer.
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2018-01-30T04:38:24Z asarch: I AM!!!
2018-01-30T04:38:28Z asarch: Of course I am
2018-01-30T04:38:33Z asarch: That's why I am here
2018-01-30T04:39:12Z asarch: When I was learning JavaScript, I asked if there was a shell who could understand JavaScript commands directly
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2018-01-30T04:40:19Z asarch: However, they told me that it was not possible because the common and useful shell constructs like piping and redirection would conflict with JavaScript constructs
2018-01-30T04:41:06Z pjb: Like eshell, it would be perfectly possible.
2018-01-30T04:41:20Z asarch: That's great
2018-01-30T04:41:50Z asarch: The language defines what we can and what we cannot to think
2018-01-30T04:42:00Z asarch: Just like Paul Graham says in his book
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2018-01-30T04:47:04Z asarch: BRB I need to change the LAN connection
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2018-01-30T04:49:28Z asarch: BTW What is "com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd"? A news site?
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2018-01-30T04:50:13Z pjb: asarch: this is #lisp, it's a package!
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2018-01-30T04:58:18Z pjb: asarch: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git # Then (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum)
2018-01-30T04:59:04Z pjb: (documentation (find-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd) t)
2018-01-30T04:59:29Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:lspack  :com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd t)
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2018-01-30T05:33:36Z asarch: D'oh!
2018-01-30T05:33:39Z asarch: Thank you pjb
2018-01-30T05:33:48Z asarch: Thank you very much once again :-)
2018-01-30T05:35:10Z pjb: then of course: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd:read-passwd)
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2018-01-30T06:20:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-30T06:27:32Z stylewarning: Is coleslaw maintained?
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2018-01-30T06:36:23Z makomo: beach: morning!
2018-01-30T06:36:37Z makomo: exam in an hour or so :-)
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2018-01-30T06:37:47Z beach: Good luck.
2018-01-30T06:38:05Z jackdaniel: stylewarning: it is (at least it was around 2 months ago I last checked)
2018-01-30T06:38:16Z makomo: beach: thanks :-D. it's the most horrible subject ever though -- UML & co.
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2018-01-30T06:39:07Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: why are there like 15 open PRs?
2018-01-30T06:39:12Z makomo: no proper learning materials, only slides. the whole organization sucks.
2018-01-30T06:39:26Z makomo: and everything is so buzzwordy and enterprisey
2018-01-30T06:39:30Z jackdaniel: at least part of them were in a middle of discussing changes
2018-01-30T06:39:42Z makomo: and all of the examples are in java of course
2018-01-30T06:39:47Z jackdaniel: (what is a good thing - when maintainer hestitates to merge everything)
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2018-01-30T06:42:02Z jackdaniel: but looking at PRs it seems it is not *actively* maintained. but it is not abandoned either
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2018-01-30T08:58:36Z phoe: What is the CL way of telling emacs how to highlight syntax?
2018-01-30T08:59:07Z phoe: I have a DEFINE-FOO macro that has a &body as its last argument. I need to tell it that the first string of that &body is a docstring and should be highlighted as such, not as an usual string.
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2018-01-30T09:04:44Z Devon: phoe: Good question - I only know the EL way.
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2018-01-30T09:08:16Z schweers: phoe: you have a separate face for docstrings?
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2018-01-30T09:10:19Z dmiles: lets say my lisp reader is reader a symbol had just read.. "#:A" . Are these the only characters that will stop reading the symbol? #\; #\, #\( #\) #\' #\` #\" #\:  ?
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2018-01-30T09:11:13Z schweers: dmiles: if I understand your question correctly, every terminating macro character will terminate (hence the name) reading the symbol (or number)
2018-01-30T09:12:25Z dmiles: schweers: can you give my an example of a terminating macro character?
2018-01-30T09:12:48Z schweers: they are listed somewhere in the hyperspec, I’m looking for the page right now, give me a sec
2018-01-30T09:13:04Z schweers: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/02_d.htm
2018-01-30T09:14:11Z dmiles: sharpsign is surprising there
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2018-01-30T09:14:43Z schweers: um … sorry, then I didn’t give you the correct link
2018-01-30T09:14:59Z schweers: the sharpsign is a macrocharacter, but a non-terminating one
2018-01-30T09:15:22Z schweers: so foo#bar will be read as one token, not as "foo", leaving "#bar" unread
2018-01-30T09:15:27Z dmiles: 'A31#PA  ->  |A31#PA|
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2018-01-30T09:15:57Z schweers: not quite as nice, but figure 2-7 does the job: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/02_ad.htm
2018-01-30T09:16:03Z dmiles: hrm |FOO#BAR|
2018-01-30T09:16:11Z schweers: look for characters which are terminating macro characters
2018-01-30T09:16:20Z dmiles: thank you
2018-01-30T09:16:40Z schweers: keep in mind that we are talking about standard syntax, you may change the readtable to include other terminating macro characters
2018-01-30T09:16:47Z schweers: you’re welcome
2018-01-30T09:19:33Z dmiles: also next is there a lisp reader written in lisp somewhere.. the reader i implemented is too permissive .. for example I dont keep count of backquote level when reading commas
2018-01-30T09:19:38Z dmiles: + ?
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2018-01-30T09:20:05Z schweers: if I recall correctly, the sbcl has a reader written in lisp
2018-01-30T09:20:18Z schweers: yep, it is
2018-01-30T09:20:43Z dmiles: nice, thank you.. i am surprised
2018-01-30T09:20:51Z Shinmera: beach has a portable reader, if I remember correctly.
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2018-01-30T09:21:14Z schweers: I was too, I still don’t really understand how that works
2018-01-30T09:21:14Z schweers:  
2018-01-30T09:21:28Z schweers: although … I have a faint idea
2018-01-30T09:21:36Z Shinmera: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Eclector
2018-01-30T09:22:43Z Shinmera: schweers: What do you mean? The reader is just an algorithm. You can implement it in any language.
2018-01-30T09:22:45Z dmiles: awesome to even
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2018-01-30T09:23:35Z schweers: Shinmera: I don’t know a lot about bootstrapping, but then I remembered that one needs a working CL environment to build sbcl, so it doesn’t seem that unusual anymore.
2018-01-30T09:25:12Z dmiles: i i was suprised at sbcl is that impls end up doing a minimalistic reader in their lnaugage (say C) then if they start to writ e alisp reader in Lisp.. their C code gets jealous and starts to take over until the lisp becomes busywork
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2018-01-30T09:25:35Z dmiles: why i*
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2018-01-30T09:27:34Z dmiles: so they weight the cost benefits of having two codebases.. one lame one in C they cant delete (and they forever have to improve) .. vs  a *overly* fantastic one im Lisp
2018-01-30T09:28:45Z schweers: if I recall correctly in sbcl only parts of the runtime are written in C.
2018-01-30T09:28:46Z dmiles: so glad beach made a fantastic one :)
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2018-01-30T09:35:49Z dmiles: hrrm sbcl might work to if i locate all the +...+ constants
2018-01-30T09:36:44Z dmiles: well most are in readtable.lisp .. ok .. thjis will work to
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2018-01-30T10:17:39Z scymtym_: Shinmera: the eclector thing is very much work-in-progress, though
2018-01-30T10:18:17Z Shinmera: scymtym_: You're working with him on it, right?
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2018-01-30T10:18:48Z scymtym_: yes
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2018-01-30T10:24:22Z dmiles: well my current reader is doing pretty well... it will probly be a week to two months before i really need to borrow a reader in lisp
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2018-01-30T11:05:58Z beach: scymtym_: It looks like it is close to being usable.  I certainly intend to start using it for reading SICL code.
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2018-01-30T11:29:30Z scymtym_: beach: it should definitely be fine (strictly speaking "no worse than") for that particular case since it still mostly identical to the code it is replacing. i was referring to FIXMEs for not-yet-defined condition types, recently discovered (small) bugs and the like with that statement
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2018-01-30T11:56:55Z beach: scymtym__: Sure, I understand that it is not completely finished, but it is definitely getting there.
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2018-01-30T12:02:57Z scymtym__: beach: sure
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2018-01-30T12:43:50Z pfdietz: dmiles: SBCL doesn't have to have a reader written in C, any more than a C compiler needs to have a lexer/parser written in assembler.
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2018-01-30T13:11:46Z dmiles: pfdietz: to read SBCL's lisp reader into SBCL i was assuming there was a less functioning primordial reader
2018-01-30T13:12:30Z dmiles: (though I supposed another lisp impl can build SBCL in this case)
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2018-01-30T13:25:27Z Bike: sbcl is built using another lisp, yes.
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2018-01-30T13:45:44Z pfdietz: And gcc is written in C and compiled with a C compiler.  The first C compiler written by Dennis Ritchie was in PDP-11 assembler though.
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2018-01-30T13:51:36Z beach: It is very strange to me that so many people assume that a Common Lisp system must be (at least partially) written in some other language.
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2018-01-30T13:57:36Z makomo: i would say that's just because self-hosting is a weird concept at first
2018-01-30T13:58:37Z beach: makomo: So you are saying that, if asked, these people don't think that C compilers are written in C?
2018-01-30T13:58:55Z makomo: well, not quite, because many of them never ask themselves that question
2018-01-30T13:59:13Z makomo: they often treat compilers as "a thing you download and use to make programs"
2018-01-30T13:59:22Z makomo: they don't see the "recursive" nature
2018-01-30T13:59:24Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.
2018-01-30T13:59:34Z makomo: i always like to think about what would happen if you had the ability to destroy all compilers for high-level languages in an instant
2018-01-30T13:59:42Z makomo: we would all have to start all over again
2018-01-30T14:00:02Z makomo: the same would happen if you destroyed all of the robots in factories or something like that
2018-01-30T14:00:11Z makomo: like, destroying all of the tools we use today to make products
2018-01-30T14:00:17Z makomo: we would have to go back and redo everything
2018-01-30T14:00:52Z makomo: it's a very interesting concept, because if you go deep enough, *someone* had to make the first version from something that was more primitive
2018-01-30T14:01:21Z makomo: it's a long chain of people standing on the shoulders of others :-)
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2018-01-30T14:08:37Z JuanDaugherty: the long standing preference is to write the compiler for x in x
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2018-01-30T14:09:09Z beach: It is the standard way of showing that the language is expressive.
2018-01-30T14:09:26Z JuanDaugherty: maybe with a core bootstrap in something else, e.g. the vm in smalltalk being in machine lang
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2018-01-30T14:10:22Z JuanDaugherty: long standing meaning dating to maybe the early 70s
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2018-01-30T14:11:13Z JuanDaugherty: (or sixties if you include burroughs)
2018-01-30T14:12:29Z lieven: including the Realia COBOL compiler written in COBOL :)
2018-01-30T14:12:42Z JuanDaugherty: expressiveness and monolothic confidence in function
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2018-01-30T14:16:48Z JuanDaugherty: more COBOL use now than i would have thought
2018-01-30T14:17:58Z dmiles: do others think that makomo is correct.. we'd have to start from scratch with lisp if there was not already a lisp impl?
2018-01-30T14:18:47Z makomo: dmiles: well how else would you do it? the initial lisp compiler was surely written in something that was not lisp, because lisp didn't exist until that moment :-)
2018-01-30T14:18:57Z makomo: same with any other language
2018-01-30T14:19:08Z beach: What do you mean by "start from scratch"?  You would obviously have to write the first Lisp system in some other language.
2018-01-30T14:19:36Z JuanDaugherty: unless you have lisp hardware
2018-01-30T14:19:37Z dmiles: yes i agree, i thought maybe beach say it differntly
2018-01-30T14:19:45Z jackdaniel: "starting from scratch" is a bold statement - you have all ideas around (even the standard)
2018-01-30T14:19:46Z dmiles: say/saw
2018-01-30T14:20:01Z jackdaniel: so it is a "mere" question of implementing it
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2018-01-30T14:20:26Z makomo: when you get to the bottom of that thought, someone somewhere implemented the first program with a few electrodes :D
2018-01-30T14:20:27Z jackdaniel: while starting of scratch would be also thinking on how this should be specified
2018-01-30T14:20:27Z dmiles: well i just mean we have everything of all the lisp code and spec yet we didnt have lisp impl in any language other than lisp
2018-01-30T14:20:43Z makomo: just flipping bits on his own
2018-01-30T14:21:00Z JuanDaugherty: the first 'programs' were manual switch settings
2018-01-30T14:21:17Z makomo: yeah, true
2018-01-30T14:21:18Z JuanDaugherty: ftm so were the first pc
2018-01-30T14:21:22Z wingodboleash: metacircular interpretation huh ....
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2018-01-30T14:21:37Z makomo: so if you destroyed everything we had now, we would have to redo that whole process again
2018-01-30T14:21:45Z makomo: idk, but that thought was also pretty "scary" to me
2018-01-30T14:21:48Z makomo: always*
2018-01-30T14:22:17Z jackdaniel: makomo: that's not as terrifying, since you have all the design all over the place, you may implement from scratch only n-1 step to bootstrap step n
2018-01-30T14:22:31Z jackdaniel: while in "history" it is more a process of development supporting ideas loop
2018-01-30T14:22:58Z lieven: let me give you an even better one. If the electricity grid over a big enough area goes down, getting it up again would be a major problem.
2018-01-30T14:23:15Z makomo: jackdaniel: well, i guess that would depend on how much you destroyed :-D
2018-01-30T14:23:34Z makomo: lieven: lol yeah, pretty much
2018-01-30T14:23:45Z dmiles: or like when the computer chip factory burned down in singapore iot took us 5 years before we could buy ram again
2018-01-30T14:23:46Z makomo: it goes for any human activity
2018-01-30T14:24:27Z schweers: chris wellons wrote about part of this problem: http://nullprogram.com/blog/2016/11/17/
2018-01-30T14:25:23Z wingodboleash: actually, maybe in the process of reinventing the wheel somebody will find out that we've been doing it all wrong since the very beginning and so maybe it'll be for the better if everything gets destroyed...
2018-01-30T14:25:28Z wingodboleash: just sayin
2018-01-30T14:25:28Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. the first electronic ones were, the jackard looms were punched hole programs but not computers
2018-01-30T14:25:58Z JuanDaugherty: *jacquard
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2018-01-30T14:30:41Z wingodboleash: on a sidenote, why does it seem to me that i'm gonna have to write my own custom implementation of lisp to be truly satisfied with the language ? Seems to me that there's a sort of a law for lisp where everyone feels this at some point, and those who actually come up with a new implementation just increase the entropy of the scheme universe ! And then it becomes harder for a beginner to choose which dialect to choose and the beginner gets the same
2018-01-30T14:30:41Z wingodboleash: feeling ! Its an infinite loop !
2018-01-30T14:31:09Z wingodboleash: *lisp universe
2018-01-30T14:31:27Z JuanDaugherty doesn't feel that at all, prefers to build on what is
2018-01-30T14:31:34Z schweers: dunno, I’m pretty happy with SBCL
2018-01-30T14:31:51Z JuanDaugherty: although I do feel it at the systems/OS level
2018-01-30T14:31:53Z lieven: schweers: http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/extreme_system_recovery.html Al Viro once did that for real without docs
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2018-01-30T14:32:37Z dmiles: i am making my impl because i dont think anyone has ever built common lisp on prolog before
2018-01-30T14:32:41Z beach: wingodboleash: I take it you mean a new language as opposed to a new implementation of an existing language?  That is not a problem, because new languages usually don't become widely used.
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2018-01-30T14:33:16Z JuanDaugherty: is a thing not having been done in and of itself a reason to do it?
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2018-01-30T14:33:38Z wingodboleash: yeah... like theres a feeling that i want to create a dialect of lisp that is taylored to my use... probably what lisp is most useful for ?
2018-01-30T14:33:39Z dmiles: JuanDaugherty: sometimes :P
2018-01-30T14:33:48Z JuanDaugherty: :)
2018-01-30T14:34:05Z wingodboleash: JuanDaugherty: Maybe :P
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2018-01-30T14:34:52Z Shinmera: I'm a practical person, so I really don't see the use in creating yet another language for which you'll have to waste decades upon decades until you're at a point where you have enough libraries to be actually productive.
2018-01-30T14:35:20Z JuanDaugherty: well if ur implementing cl, once you have an impl ... .
2018-01-30T14:35:36Z Shinmera: We already have several implementations, why would you make another
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2018-01-30T14:35:53Z wingodboleash: Im a newbie
2018-01-30T14:35:55Z JuanDaugherty: just because apparently
2018-01-30T14:36:04Z wingodboleash: i've been wanting to learn lisp for a long time
2018-01-30T14:36:05Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That's where my practicality comes in
2018-01-30T14:36:13Z Shinmera: err, JuanDaugherty
2018-01-30T14:36:18Z wingodboleash: but i never get to it because of the huge lisp world
2018-01-30T14:36:23Z dmiles: JuanDaugherty: what Shinmera saiid is the reason I have to build my impl.. Imagine how many ytears it would take get all the lisp libraries for prolog?
2018-01-30T14:36:38Z Shinmera: wingodboleash: Well fortunately for you this channel is only about Common Lisp, and that world is just one language.
2018-01-30T14:36:46Z wingodboleash: i yeah
2018-01-30T14:36:48Z jackdaniel: dmiles: use (and probably first fix) poplog then
2018-01-30T14:36:51Z wingodboleash: but even then
2018-01-30T14:37:01Z wingodboleash: its confusing as he**
2018-01-30T14:37:34Z JuanDaugherty: dmiles, to me function is function, i'd rather think about ways to leave function as is and work on a means to leverage in a common system
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2018-01-30T14:37:48Z dmiles: jackdaniel: the problem is there are 7 refernce impl of Prolog.. immagine me having to write all teh lisp libraries for all 7 ?
2018-01-30T14:38:01Z JuanDaugherty: js, php, lisp, hs, prolog, whatever
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2018-01-30T14:38:38Z dmiles: jackdaniel: or as you said catch poplog up to the capabilities of the best of the 7
2018-01-30T14:39:11Z jackdaniel: what I mean is that poplog allows interoperability of languages supported by it
2018-01-30T14:39:21Z jackdaniel: so if you fix its cl implementation you have libraries already
2018-01-30T14:39:29Z jackdaniel: and you may use it in other poplog languages
2018-01-30T14:39:29Z lieven: pop11 was a nice language but isn't it mostly dead now?
2018-01-30T14:39:37Z JuanDaugherty: everything pretty much boils down to the same ol jacked up 8080 instruction set anywho these days
2018-01-30T14:39:45Z schweers: lieven:  what the hell was that?
2018-01-30T14:39:46Z dmiles: but then the whoile prolog world would need to abandon their 7 impls and jsut use proplog.. the path i have now all 7 can run all the lisp libraries
2018-01-30T14:40:02Z schweers: how do you botch a system that badly that these steps are necessary?
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2018-01-30T14:40:33Z dmiles: proplog/poplog
2018-01-30T14:41:06Z jackdaniel: dmiles: you coming up with your own incompatible implementation is like in this xkcd joke: we have 6 standard, that's unacceptable (and they make 7th standard)
2018-01-30T14:41:54Z beach: wingodboleash: What is confusing about it?
2018-01-30T14:41:55Z jackdaniel: s/6 standard/6 standards/
2018-01-30T14:43:32Z dmiles: jackdaniel: though luckily i am *only* implemeting one standard that i did not create (common lisp). and having to write 3-5 shims to cover the differnces in the 7 impls of prolog
2018-01-30T14:45:39Z JuanDaugherty: well cl standard purposes leaves some decisions to impl
2018-01-30T14:45:45Z JuanDaugherty: *purposely
2018-01-30T14:46:05Z dmiles: the 3-5 shims (prolog-to-prolog compatibility libaries) already mostly exist . why i probly only have ot create 3-5
2018-01-30T14:46:16Z JuanDaugherty: from infinite diversity something something
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2018-01-30T14:46:45Z dmiles: JuanDaugherty: i find hta tis the only hard part about the impl.. Do i act like SBCL or do i cat like Clisp or like ECL?
2018-01-30T14:47:08Z dmiles: (i dont want to act like my own)
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2018-01-30T14:47:37Z JuanDaugherty: what's the point if you don't act like ur own (pl flavored i presume)?
2018-01-30T14:48:07Z dmiles: meaning i picking one #+<SBCL/ECL/CLISP> and making sure i conform to being really hte same
2018-01-30T14:48:24Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2018-01-30T14:49:04Z JuanDaugherty: ur ignoring allegro and the other priced ones?
2018-01-30T14:49:32Z dmiles: i using some of Allegro yeah.. such as their jLinker library
2018-01-30T14:49:59Z dmiles: (which is what ABCL does)
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2018-01-30T14:52:24Z dmiles: Also though I figure most users with be user of Sicstus and SWI.. using things like CLEWS
2018-01-30T14:53:06Z JuanDaugherty: swi is more dominant in pl than sbcl is in cl
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2018-01-30T14:56:23Z JuanDaugherty: people are still using cmucl ftm judging from the list activity
2018-01-30T14:56:46Z JuanDaugherty: (and the complaint about recent breakage)
2018-01-30T14:56:56Z dmiles: *nod* though since SWI is the slowest, it hard not having some of its libs on sicstus.. which the common-lisp libs will more than make up for
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2018-01-30T14:57:13Z JuanDaugherty: yeah i think of yap as the alt
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2018-01-30T14:57:54Z JuanDaugherty: but swi does not seem slow to me
2018-01-30T14:58:28Z JuanDaugherty: it built attempto in like 2s
2018-01-30T14:59:12Z dmiles: and its fast on swi as well!
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2018-01-30T14:59:30Z JuanDaugherty: (i meant swi)
2018-01-30T14:59:58Z JuanDaugherty: not actually used yap, prolly never will
2018-01-30T15:00:01Z dmiles: (/me not being sarcastic.. Swi is fast at running attempto last time i ran it)
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2018-01-30T15:02:22Z dmiles: to contrast speed differnces though i wrote a HPSG parser on SWI,  and Goolseby ported a HPSG to ACL..  What took 2 seconds to run on SWI took 30secs on ACL
2018-01-30T15:03:19Z dmiles: (attempto is a HPSG)
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2018-01-30T15:04:09Z JuanDaugherty: i think support is supposed to be acl's strong suite
2018-01-30T15:04:52Z JuanDaugherty: or the comfort of the big house, i dunno
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2018-01-30T15:05:32Z JuanDaugherty: miss ann and mr charlie's lisp
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2018-01-30T15:07:04Z dmiles: english to logic form conversion is one area that Prolog has the advantage
2018-01-30T15:07:33Z dmiles: https://github.com/SWI-Prolog/bench/blob/master/chat_parser.pl <- in fact, its a daily benchmark for SWI
2018-01-30T15:08:25Z dmiles: though the actualy use of that logic i think lisp has a big advantage
2018-01-30T15:08:41Z JuanDaugherty: yeah, nlp wants to be pl, pl is nlp oriented from the start
2018-01-30T15:08:52Z JuanDaugherty: *be pl based
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2018-01-30T15:10:27Z dmiles: here is the output of the english2logic system:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rdI_f-2YnX0e2RD6rGAY57YAqzLj2xHsk36m5HT6SoM/edit
2018-01-30T15:11:41Z dmiles: the systems that impl that logic have only been created in common lisp
2018-01-30T15:13:08Z dmiles: SNARK, etc
2018-01-30T15:13:47Z JuanDaugherty: at least it's executable in contrast with xml
2018-01-30T15:14:29Z dmiles: indeed! plz no one ask for it to be stuffed into RDF
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2018-01-30T15:43:21Z beach: I think I pretty much finished my ELS submissions.  There is enough time to write another paper.  Or I could go back to design and coding.
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2018-01-30T15:58:57Z paule32: hello
2018-01-30T15:59:02Z paule32: need help: https://pastebin.com/XbKnJw2U
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2018-01-30T16:08:54Z Xach: paule32: does it happen every time you try?
2018-01-30T16:09:47Z paule32: if run with system root/adim rights, then not
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2018-01-30T16:12:00Z Xach: I don't know why clisp is doing that, sorry. I don't use clisp a lot, but when I do, I haven't gotten signal 6 quits.
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2018-01-30T16:15:17Z paule32: *** - Component "cl-ppcre" not found
2018-01-30T16:15:17Z paule32: Mögliche Optionen:
2018-01-30T16:15:17Z paule32: REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY :R1 Retry finding system cl-ppcre after reinitializing the source-registry.
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2018-01-30T16:24:23Z Xach: paule32: If I were in your situation I would stop using clisp and use something else.
2018-01-30T16:25:09Z paule32: you mean programming?
2018-01-30T16:25:14Z paule32: or setup?
2018-01-30T16:25:25Z Xach: paule32: I mean stop using CLISP and start using SBCL.
2018-01-30T16:25:46Z Xach: paule32: Another option would be to appeal to a clisp user or developer for help.
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2018-01-30T16:49:08Z pjb: dmiles: each implementation has a lisp reader of course.  I don't know if sicl already has one implemented.  You may have a look at: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader
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2018-01-30T17:08:37Z mfiano: Xach: Looks like I met your deadline :)
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2018-01-30T17:18:06Z Xach: we'll just see about that!!!
2018-01-30T17:19:44Z mfiano: Xach: Ok, please let me know if you get build failures for gamebox-math from this morning's pull.
2018-01-30T17:19:54Z raynold: Ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-01-30T18:07:00Z paule32: pjb: https://pastebin.com/Rj9qrtrp
2018-01-30T18:07:30Z paule32: pjb: in which file, do you refer to TOPOLOGICAL-SORT ?
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2018-01-30T18:25:21Z paule32: ok
2018-01-30T18:25:32Z paule32: pjb: i get done working the code
2018-01-30T18:25:49Z paule32: pjb: i remove TOPOLOGICAL-sort
2018-01-30T18:26:01Z paule32: pjb: and, get this:  https://pastebin.com/uZuDG2gc
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2018-01-30T18:26:54Z paule32: pjb: so, i don't know, if it a homework to get the right values/content on the output, you marked with !!! expected 1
2018-01-30T18:26:56Z paule32: ?
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2018-01-30T18:36:42Z rumbler31: paule32: Vielleicht sollen Sie etwas aenders als clisp benuetzen. Z.B ccl or sbcl
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2018-01-30T18:37:37Z paule32: hi rumbler31
2018-01-30T18:37:45Z paule32: has this a reason?
2018-01-30T18:37:48Z Xach: Auf englisch, svp
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2018-01-30T18:38:48Z rumbler31: one good reason, is that clisp is old (2010-07-07), and trying with ccl or sbcl is easy, and you can get more help with those
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2018-01-30T18:39:38Z paule32: and next year, sbcl is old ? :-)
2018-01-30T18:40:41Z rumbler31: well, right now, new versions are released frequently.  Also, do you still use windows xp? or have you upgraded to windows 10, or 7?
2018-01-30T18:41:00Z paule32: never :-)
2018-01-30T18:41:05Z paule32: i use linux
2018-01-30T18:41:08Z rumbler31: which version?
2018-01-30T18:41:29Z paule32: 3.19 kernel - linux mint 17 or 18
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2018-01-30T18:42:18Z rumbler31: so you like using a new version of linux, but you won't try a new version of lisp? :-)
2018-01-30T18:42:30Z pjb: paule32: type (apropos "TOPOLOGICAL-SORT") this should show you what package it comes from.
2018-01-30T18:43:24Z pjb: paule32: obviously you cannot remove it, it's an important part of the algorithm. Instead, you can try to design a different algorithm to evaluate a circuit.
2018-01-30T18:44:00Z paule32: pjb: i trust you :-)
2018-01-30T18:46:52Z pjb: paule32: https://codeshare.io/5OOWEP
2018-01-30T18:47:10Z pjb: you could put this in your rc file, (in-package :cl-user) if you want.
2018-01-30T18:47:41Z pjb: This imports all the usual packages from the com.informatimago, so my functions are available.
2018-01-30T18:48:21Z pjb: (actually, I do that in a com.informatimago.pjb package, and I just use it in cl-user and others.
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2018-01-30T18:56:57Z paule32: pjb: https://pastebin.com/qYKP8YBW
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2018-01-30T19:01:02Z pjb: Funny, I have it:  asdf/system:system-depends-on
2018-01-30T19:01:47Z pjb: (values asdf/upgrade:*asdf-version* ) #| --> "3.1.7.37" |#
2018-01-30T19:01:52Z pjb: what's your asdf version?
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2018-01-30T19:06:47Z pjb: paule32: in the mean time you  can just remove com.informatimago.tools.manifest from the systems to load.
2018-01-30T19:07:05Z pjb: paule32: but it would be better if you updated your asdf.
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2018-01-30T19:15:52Z paule32: i download asdf 3.3.1
2018-01-30T19:16:01Z paule32: but i get no output
2018-01-30T19:16:12Z paule32: clisp ./build/asdf.lisp
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2018-01-30T19:25:26Z pjb: paule32: here is how I load asdf3, when not present: https://codeshare.io/5OOWEP
2018-01-30T19:26:04Z pjb: paule32: why would you expect output from loading  a lisp source file, and then QUITTING!?
2018-01-30T19:27:03Z paule32: i mean the libs ...
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2018-01-30T19:30:05Z mgsk: Is it possible to do something like (defun something (&key a b &rest c) ...) where in (something :a 1 :b 2 :c 1 2 3) they keyword :c "collects" all remaining forms, i.e. C = (1 2 3)?
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2018-01-30T19:31:01Z Xach: mgsk: yes
2018-01-30T19:31:13Z Xach: mgsk: you swap the &rest and &key positions and bob is your uncle
2018-01-30T19:31:19Z mgsk: hot damn
2018-01-30T19:31:20Z Xach: oh wait, sorry.
2018-01-30T19:31:25Z Xach: I was too hasty.
2018-01-30T19:31:30Z mgsk: not hot damn
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2018-01-30T19:31:49Z mgsk: I essentially want to name the &rest
2018-01-30T19:31:50Z Xach: What actually happens is that the &rest var collects subsequent keyword/value pairs. but they have to be matched.
2018-01-30T19:32:02Z Xach: which is a very handy thing but not what you describe
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2018-01-30T19:32:57Z Xach: (defun make-a-thing (class-name &rest args &key &allow-other-keys) (apply 'make-instance class-name args)) for a dumb example
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2018-01-30T19:35:27Z mgsk: I was just thinking about how use-package (in emacs) allows for arbitrarily many forms to be given to a keyword (until the next keyword). But rather than complicate things, I'll re-think my design
2018-01-30T19:35:52Z phoe: mgsk: just use :foo '(bar baz quux)
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2018-01-30T19:36:02Z phoe: this allows you to pass arbitrarily many forms to a keyword, too
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2018-01-30T19:36:51Z mgsk: sure
2018-01-30T19:38:17Z paule32: pjb: https://pastebin.com/xnDKLjyF
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2018-01-30T19:47:28Z pjb: paule32: why does it quit in the end?  You're doing it wrong!  Never quit from a lisp image!
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2018-01-30T19:48:12Z pjb: phoe: nope. It allows to pass an even number of arguments.
2018-01-30T19:48:34Z pjb: &key implies the &rest arguments must be an EVEN number.
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2018-01-30T19:49:14Z pjb: mgsk: what you need to do, is to use only &rest arguments, and to parse them yourself.
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2018-01-30T19:52:36Z pjb: mgsk: for example, something like (let ((arguments '(:a 1 :b 2 3 4 5 6)))  (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (loop with expected = '(:a :b) while (and arguments (cdr arguments) (member (first arguments) expected)) collect (pop arguments) into keys collect (pop arguments) into keys finally (return (list* :c arguments keys))) (list :a a :b b :c c))) #| --> (:a 1 :b 2 :c (3 4 5 6)) |#
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2018-01-30T19:55:46Z pjb: mgsk: so (defun foo (&rest arguments)   (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (loop with expected = '(:a :b) while (and arguments (cdr arguments) (member (first arguments) expected)) collect (pop arguments) into keys collect (pop arguments) into keys finally (return (list* :c arguments keys))) (list :a a :b b :c c)))
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2018-01-30T20:11:58Z mgsk: pjb: interesting. Thanks
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2018-01-30T20:39:49Z pjb: paule32: aren't you using slime?
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2018-01-30T20:41:38Z paule32: pjb: not, yet, i try to get working your stuff: https://pastebin.com/c98WxT0A
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2018-01-30T20:42:53Z phoe: paule32: learn slime. seriously.
2018-01-30T20:43:43Z paule32: phoe: i have so many idea's, i come not over ;-)
2018-01-30T20:44:31Z phoe: paule32: using Lisp without slime is a terrible experience. you might as well be using a non-interactive language like C or Java.
2018-01-30T20:45:25Z paule32: java is mess, a big big ... slow thing
2018-01-30T20:45:51Z paule32: you have the idea of C, but ... big libs ..
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2018-01-30T20:46:02Z phoe: doesn't matter what Java is. coding in Lisp without any kind of interactivity layer for it prevents you from taking advantage of one of its most important features.
2018-01-30T20:46:42Z paule32: visual studio has code folding and such thing's, too
2018-01-30T20:46:46Z paule32: but they fat
2018-01-30T20:47:51Z paule32: i look over ther system: clisp produce ascii bytecode, sbcl binary bytecode
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2018-01-30T20:49:58Z pjb: paule32: in your paste, we don't see what you did.
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2018-01-30T20:50:26Z pjb: paule32: also, read: https://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
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2018-01-30T20:51:34Z paule32: pjb: $ clisp elo.lisp  # in elo.lisp:  (load "./init.lisp")  ; where your code from paste
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2018-01-30T20:51:59Z pjb: Sorry, but there's no point of doing that.
2018-01-30T20:52:09Z pjb: paule32: type clisp RET then (load "elo.lisp").
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2018-01-30T20:54:46Z paule32: ok, i did "try-recompiling
2018-01-30T20:54:52Z paule32: few times
2018-01-30T20:55:01Z paule32: and the error is away
2018-01-30T20:55:03Z paule32: but
2018-01-30T20:55:29Z paule32: some export symbols first import
2018-01-30T20:55:41Z paule32: messages occur
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2018-01-30T20:57:56Z pjb: paule32: well, perhaps you don't have a clean cl-user package. Of course, I've already explained years ago, that one should clean his cl-user package in the rc files…
2018-01-30T20:58:09Z pjb: paule32: so, let's add: the com.informatimago.pjb package.
2018-01-30T20:59:53Z pjb: paule32: take this https://codeshare.io/5OOWEP and put in a file ~/rc/common.lisp
2018-01-30T21:00:22Z pjb: paule32: then add (load (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "RC") :name "COMMON" :type "LISP" :case :common) (user-homedir-pathname) nil)) in your ~/.clisprc.lisp file.
2018-01-30T21:00:34Z aeth: Would it be possible to write something that automatically recompiles all users of a macro, struct, inline function, etc., when it is recompiled? Basically, all of the stuff that can go stale.
2018-01-30T21:00:50Z pjb: paule32: then: (in-package "COMMON-LISP-USER") (use-package "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.PJB")
2018-01-30T21:00:50Z pjb:  
2018-01-30T21:00:51Z phoe: aeth: yes.
2018-01-30T21:01:03Z aeth: (structs doing this, of course, is implementation-specific, but it would have to be done to be portable, and to support SBCL)
2018-01-30T21:01:21Z phoe: Write a custom DEFUN/DEFMETHOD/DEFeverything that codewalks the forms and finds all uses for the macro in question.
2018-01-30T21:01:44Z pjb: aeth: have a lookt at: Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2018-01-30T21:01:57Z phoe: Then write a custom DEFMACRO that, whenever a macro is recompiled, finds all users of that macro stored via the above forms, and recompiles them.
2018-01-30T21:02:12Z Bike: so easy
2018-01-30T21:02:15Z aeth: phoe: I was hoping that there was an easier way. SLIME and/or ASDF probably already know certain things.
2018-01-30T21:02:33Z pjb: aeth: this way you can save the source of each form; you may add a plist to macros, structures, inline functions, etc, to list all the things that need to be recompiled.
2018-01-30T21:02:34Z Bike: they only know what the implementation tells them, and t hat varies
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2018-01-30T21:02:53Z Bike: i don't think they implementations actually usually track macro usage, just function usage, which they need to know for linking purposes
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2018-01-30T21:06:19Z aeth: What has issues with recompiling, btw? I'm aware of inline functions, macros, and sometimes (afaik it's implementation-specific) structs.
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2018-01-30T21:07:30Z Bike: type definitions
2018-01-30T21:07:53Z aeth: I think package definitions also have issues, but only if you remove things (rather than add things)
2018-01-30T21:08:07Z aeth: But you can remove those manually by going into the package and uninterning manually iirc
2018-01-30T21:08:11Z Bike: should be irrelevant past read time.
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2018-01-30T21:09:05Z Bike: depending on how you construe the workings of load-time-value in relation to compilation, maybe you'd need to recompile for lots of random reasons
2018-01-30T21:09:21Z Bike: various declarations
2018-01-30T21:09:33Z Bike: strictly speaking, some properties of classes, though i don't know if any implementation actually takes advantage
2018-01-30T21:09:37Z aeth: Oh, actually, I never have to do the whole in-package thing for uninterning ever again, in implementations that support foo::(unintern 'whatever)
2018-01-30T21:09:48Z aeth: That might be the only non-ugly usage of that syntax extension
2018-01-30T21:10:00Z aeth: Or would that not work as expected?
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2018-01-30T21:10:07Z Bike: what in package thing
2018-01-30T21:10:22Z aeth: oh wait, it defaults to the current package, I never had to do that
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2018-01-30T21:12:51Z aeth: ah, I see why I never got it to work
2018-01-30T21:13:31Z aeth: the syntax is: (unintern 'foo::some-symbol-to-remove :foo) because I need to tell it to remove the 'some-symbol-to-remove that's in foo
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2018-01-30T21:14:53Z Xach: a symbol can be interned in many packages
2018-01-30T21:14:56Z Xach: so many
2018-01-30T21:16:19Z aeth: Anyway, my actual point was: if I recompile a function without recompiling the defpackage that imports the new symbol (oops), I now need to unintern that symbol before recompiling the defpackage or else there's a conflict that the debugger wants me to resolve.
2018-01-30T21:16:58Z aeth: A conflict that only exists in the local image, not in any future uses.
2018-01-30T21:17:10Z Bike: how could compiling a function cause a symbol conflict
2018-01-30T21:17:14Z Xach: aeth: I'd like to understand. What bike said.
2018-01-30T21:17:33Z Bike: unless by "recompiling" you mean "rereading and then recompiling"
2018-01-30T21:17:42Z Xach: I think i get it.
2018-01-30T21:17:42Z Bike: and uh... even then i'm not sure i get it
2018-01-30T21:17:50Z aeth: Bike: Well, whatever Slime's C-c C-c is
2018-01-30T21:17:59Z Bike: that rereads, yes
2018-01-30T21:18:12Z Xach: You get "undefined function frob" and you change defpackage to :use the package that provides frob and you get a conflict?
2018-01-30T21:18:23Z aeth: yes
2018-01-30T21:18:25Z Xach: That happens to me - when it does, I use shadowing-import-from to clobber the existing one.
2018-01-30T21:19:32Z aeth: I have always handled that by uninterning and then re-"C-c C-c"ing the defpackage.
2018-01-30T21:20:03Z Xach: The restart in slime helps too.
2018-01-30T21:22:26Z paule32: pjb: seems to work, atm
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2018-01-30T21:23:08Z paule32: pjb: but, what is the difference between $ clisp  and  $ clisp ./elo.lisp  ?
2018-01-30T21:23:37Z pjb: paule32: great. so now you can load your code; it would be nice to define your own package for it. Then you can use the com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility package.
2018-01-30T21:23:59Z pjb: paule32: clisp foo.lisp will load the file and then quit.
2018-01-30T21:24:10Z pjb: paule32: clisp launches the REPL and remains in the REPL.
2018-01-30T21:24:25Z pjb: paule32: so after you've loaded the file, you can go on programming, testing, and debugging.
2018-01-30T21:24:32Z pjb: paule32: have fun in a word.
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2018-01-30T21:25:08Z pjb: paule32: I don't know how many years ago you've started with lisp: you've made clearly no progress since that day. This is because you don't use the REPL.
2018-01-30T21:25:22Z paule32: pjb: hehe :-) but it is a little bit boring always to load clisp and type (load foo.lisp)
2018-01-30T21:25:31Z pjb: paule32: so start using the REPL, at least in the terminal (with clisp it's liveable since there's readline).  Better with slime.
2018-01-30T21:25:54Z pjb: paule32: you don't always load clisp: you load it once when you boot your computer and that's it.
2018-01-30T21:26:04Z pjb: paule32: you NEVER quit from a lisp image!
2018-01-30T21:26:12Z pjb: (or an emacs image, it's the same thing).
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2018-01-30T21:26:37Z pjb: paule32: check in common.lisp define-command ll
2018-01-30T21:26:39Z paule32: haha, welcome to the club
2018-01-30T21:26:46Z aeth: paule32: pjb is 100% correct. The proper way to learn CL is to think up small test cases and see how they evaluate in the REPL, preferably the SLIME (or similar) REPL so you can also interact with existing source files.
2018-01-30T21:26:57Z paule32: pjb: that is clever
2018-01-30T21:27:06Z pjb: paule32: you don't type (load "foo.lisp").  In a project, you create a loader.lisp file that will load it, and you type: ll RET at the REPL, with my command.
2018-01-30T21:27:54Z paule32: pjb: yes, that clever
2018-01-30T21:28:03Z paule32: respect!
2018-01-30T21:28:41Z aeth: How do you find out what (1+ 1) does without running it in a REPL?
2018-01-30T21:28:41Z pjb: and since you always have clisp running, you don't need a shell anymore. You can close your other terminal windows, and use clash to run shell commands: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/clash.html
2018-01-30T21:29:02Z pjb: (or use my interactive lookalike commands.
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2018-01-30T21:29:19Z paule32: aeth: 2?
2018-01-30T21:29:21Z paule32: t
2018-01-30T21:29:41Z aeth: paule32: Okay, now what does (1- 1) do?
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2018-01-30T21:29:49Z paule32: f
2018-01-30T21:30:00Z pjb: with clash and readline, you type Meta-c unix-command RET in the REPL to run unix-command.
2018-01-30T21:31:06Z paule32: pjb: the problem: i can't use cursor-up: i expect the last typed command line, but [[A comes
2018-01-30T21:31:35Z pjb: What terminal do you use?
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2018-01-30T21:32:24Z aeth: If you want to launch programs from the REPL, you can use uiop:launch-program (asynchronous) or uiop:run-program (synchronous)
2018-01-30T21:32:35Z pjb: It's funny how the simpliest commands lead to the longuest answer times…
2018-01-30T21:32:41Z aeth: (Note: launch-program is a newer feature, so you probably have to Quickload UIOP first.)
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2018-01-30T21:33:12Z paule32: pjb: xterm like
2018-01-30T21:33:31Z pjb: Then the arrows should work. Perhaps you didn't set the TERM environment variable?
2018-01-30T21:34:06Z paule32: i wonder, why the two marker's are away
2018-01-30T21:34:33Z paule32: markers, that you have set in source  "!!! expected 1"
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2018-01-30T21:35:27Z pjb: What does (ext:getenv "TERM") return?
2018-01-30T21:35:37Z pjb: paule32: to debug it you can trace update-outputs
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2018-01-30T21:35:49Z paule32: amd i wonder, why the compiled system run so fast - in fact, the fasl's are ascii text file's
2018-01-30T21:36:01Z pjb: paule32: also, see the call to print-state and uncomment it (comment out the following form instead).
2018-01-30T21:36:07Z kami: Hello #lisp
2018-01-30T21:36:18Z pjb: paule32: yes, but they load into binary lisp data structures.
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2018-01-30T21:37:36Z paule32: so, when i have the source code, i could write binary code that read-in ?
2018-01-30T21:37:41Z paule32: (ext:getenv "TERM")
2018-01-30T21:37:45Z paule32: "xterm"
2018-01-30T21:37:53Z pjb: Good. Then up arrow should work correctly.
2018-01-30T21:38:01Z pjb: Unless you don't have readline in your clisp.
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2018-01-30T21:41:00Z paule32: now, we can run into slime
2018-01-30T21:41:11Z pjb: paule32: clisp --version|grep -e '^libreadline'  # should indicate the version of the readline library that is linked.
2018-01-30T21:41:20Z pjb: paule32:  if not, you need to recompile clisp with it.
2018-01-30T21:41:24Z pjb: paule32: or indeed, use sline.
2018-01-30T21:41:34Z pjb: with slime, it's emacs history that is used instead of readline.
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2018-01-30T21:42:51Z pjb: paule32: so to obtain the binary, you need to compile the source file. Unfortunately, with clisp, the debugger is way less effcient on compiled code than on interpreted code.  So if you want to debug on compiled code, you should rather use ccl (or sbcl).
2018-01-30T21:43:09Z pjb: paule32: in any case, the advantage of using slime, is that you have the same debugger for all the supported implementations! sldb.
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2018-01-30T21:43:49Z paule32: no output
2018-01-30T21:43:52Z paule32: GNU CLISP 2.49 (2010-07-07) (built 3712566422) (memory 3712566523)
2018-01-30T21:43:52Z paule32: Software: GNU-C 6.3.0
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2018-01-30T21:44:10Z pjb: then you need to recompile clisp with readline.
2018-01-30T21:44:20Z pjb: Or use slime.
2018-01-30T21:44:28Z pjb: With slime, readline is not used.
2018-01-30T21:44:39Z paule32: what is better?
2018-01-30T21:44:49Z pjb: both.
2018-01-30T21:44:51Z pjb: then slime.
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2018-01-30T21:45:05Z paule32: i need cffi, later
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2018-01-30T21:46:59Z paule32: i have source codes
2018-01-30T21:47:00Z paule32: 2.49
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2018-01-30T21:58:51Z ebrasca: Hi
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2018-01-30T22:01:30Z ebrasca: beach: Are you here?
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2018-01-30T22:07:44Z jasom: ebrasca: it's 11PM where beach is right now, so he may be in bed
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2018-01-30T22:10:08Z ebrasca: jasom: Is beach in europe?
2018-01-30T22:10:17Z pjb: In France!
2018-01-30T22:10:28Z ebrasca: I am in Poland.
2018-01-30T22:10:33Z pjb: On the beaches of Arcachon, near Bordeaux.
2018-01-30T22:10:42Z ebrasca: Here is 23:10 .
2018-01-30T22:10:53Z pjb: Same here. We're in Europe time zone.
2018-01-30T22:11:29Z jasom: 14:11 where I am.  I'm near different beaches :)
2018-01-30T22:12:04Z ebrasca: If someone like to comment my new abstraction for fat32 here is link:
2018-01-30T22:12:43Z ebrasca: http://termbin.com/yd44
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2018-01-30T22:14:43Z pjb: ebrasca: a good test to see if it's good, is to ask a student to make a modification or improvement to it, and see how easy he can do it.
2018-01-30T22:15:08Z ebrasca: ...
2018-01-30T22:16:01Z ebrasca: pjb: Where I can find 1 studend who likes to make 1 improvement to my code?
2018-01-30T22:16:33Z jasom: ebrasca: step 1) become a professor
2018-01-30T22:16:54Z ebrasca: jasom: lol
2018-01-30T22:17:14Z Bike: step 1: fraud
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2018-01-30T22:17:38Z ebrasca: Bike: Why fraud?
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2018-01-30T22:17:44Z Bike: easier than tenure
2018-01-30T22:17:47Z aeth: Start a new Blockchain-based university and become the anonymous leader of that university. Qualifications are so 20th century.
2018-01-30T22:19:28Z ebrasca: I think pjb likes to make 1 contribution to my code.
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2018-01-30T22:22:48Z aeth: pjb made a contribution to one of my projects once. trivial-left-pad, one of my first of April projects.
2018-01-30T22:24:08Z Bike: well, i don't know fat32, the code looks okay to me
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2018-01-30T22:24:53Z Bike: though the when t on open-using-host is weird, i'm sure you know that
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2018-01-30T22:33:09Z aeth: ebrasca: You did a good job refactoring the loops
2018-01-30T22:33:15Z aeth: I don't even recognize them
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2018-01-30T22:36:37Z ebrasca: aeth: Thanks you.
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2018-01-30T22:38:46Z ebrasca: aeth: All loops magically disappear with do-files.
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2018-01-30T23:25:24Z asarch: Hey guys, how would you open a big file, parse its content line by line and print the third column of every line that matches with a regexp?
2018-01-30T23:25:52Z asarch: The file is from a query from a PG cluster
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2018-01-30T23:30:03Z paule32: so, next problem:
2018-01-30T23:30:04Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/MHLn6MZ9
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2018-01-30T23:43:36Z asarch: Thank you!
2018-01-30T23:43:42Z asarch: Thank you very much paule32 :-)
2018-01-30T23:44:13Z paule32: what?
2018-01-30T23:44:25Z paule32: you have question?
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2018-01-30T23:47:29Z asarch: D'oh!
2018-01-30T23:47:35Z asarch: I thought that was for me
2018-01-30T23:47:38Z asarch: Sorry, sorry :-P
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2018-01-31T00:11:19Z didi: If I want to handle dates before 1900, what should I do?
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2018-01-31T00:14:54Z Xach: didi: handle in what sense?
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2018-01-31T00:16:24Z didi: Xach: I want to encode, say (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1700).
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2018-01-31T00:18:12Z Xach: didi: OS?
2018-01-31T00:18:19Z didi: Xach: Debian.
2018-01-31T00:18:27Z Xach: I mean, old-style 1700 or new-style?
2018-01-31T00:18:59Z didi: Xach: "old-style" as in before the months that never were?
2018-01-31T00:19:14Z Xach: didi: as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates
2018-01-31T00:19:40Z Xach: see the old unix prank: cal 7 1752
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2018-01-31T00:20:07Z Xach: didi: sorry not to have a useful answer - it would be nice if there was a library for your task. but it seems pretty complicated and i don't know of one.
2018-01-31T00:20:08Z didi: Xach: Let's say 1800.
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2018-01-31T00:20:20Z didi: Xach: Oh, OK.
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2018-01-31T00:20:47Z Xach: didi: i am curious, though - what is the project in your case?
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2018-01-31T00:21:40Z didi: Xach: I want to be able to tell the weekday of dates before 1900.
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2018-01-31T00:23:09Z Xach: didi: why?
2018-01-31T00:24:00Z didi: Xach: Nothing in particular. Just thought of it and realized I couldn't go earlier than 1900.
2018-01-31T00:24:10Z Xach: ah
2018-01-31T00:24:24Z Xach: then perhaps investing in the great book "Calendrical Calculations" is not worth the trouble
2018-01-31T00:24:27Z markong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-01-31T00:24:29Z Xach: (with code in Lisp!)
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2018-01-31T00:24:54Z didi: I've heard of it. From the creator of Emacs' calendar, right?
2018-01-31T00:25:19Z Xach: I don't know - that would be interesting
2018-01-31T00:25:27Z didi: I /think/ so.
2018-01-31T00:26:36Z zazzerino: Yep- https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EdwardReingold
2018-01-31T00:26:48Z didi: zazzerino: Thanks.
2018-01-31T00:27:19Z Bike: not cal 9 1752?
2018-01-31T00:27:52Z didi: Anyway, nothing needing attention right now. Just a curiosity.
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2018-01-31T00:28:01Z Xach: Bike: yes indeed. cut & paste error on my part.
2018-01-31T00:28:12Z Bike: i was staring at july trying to figure out the joke
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2018-01-31T00:28:52Z Xach: Sorry about that.
2018-01-31T00:28:54Z didi: Heh, missing days are missing.
2018-01-31T00:29:24Z Bike: i continually get confused reading mildly old russian things and being unable to comprehend julian dates
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2018-01-31T00:58:20Z ym: Is there a proof of impossibility of input (from "real-world") in FP?
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2018-01-31T00:59:45Z Bike: what would that mean?
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2018-01-31T01:12:35Z ym: Thesis in natural language, I guess.
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2018-01-31T01:29:52Z Bike: ...what?
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2018-01-31T01:33:38Z pjb: ym: the real world is part of the program: the universe is obviously a simulation written in your FP program!
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2018-01-31T01:33:56Z pjb: it's God's program.
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2018-01-31T01:35:41Z asarch: Sorry if I insist. I promise this would be my last question but, how would you open a big file, parse its content line by line and print the third column of every line that matches with a regexp?
2018-01-31T01:37:04Z pjb: asarch: (with-open-file (stream "big-file") (loop for line = (read-line stream nil nil) while line when (regexp-match-line-p regexp line) do (print (third-column line))))
2018-01-31T01:37:07Z pjb: DUH!
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2018-01-31T01:37:23Z Bike: what parsing, exactly?
2018-01-31T01:37:30Z pjb: line by line.
2018-01-31T01:37:35Z asarch: The file is from a query from a PG cluster
2018-01-31T01:38:32Z asarch: psql school -c "SELECT * FROM payments WHERE student_id = 234;"
2018-01-31T01:38:55Z asarch: THANK YOU pjb
2018-01-31T01:39:04Z asarch: THANK YOU VERY MUCH :-)
2018-01-31T01:39:49Z Bike: you're being sarcastic, right? but honestly, that's kind of what it amounts to.
2018-01-31T01:39:57Z Bike: if you need a regex matching library cl-ppcre is good.
2018-01-31T01:40:29Z asarch: I used to use Perl for that kind of operations
2018-01-31T01:40:45Z asarch: In the beginning I used the TCSH for that
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2018-01-31T01:41:01Z Bike: okay?
2018-01-31T01:41:06Z asarch: Then I moved to awk, sed, grep
2018-01-31T01:41:14Z asarch: I am not
2018-01-31T01:41:37Z asarch: Actually, in the sed time I was looking for a decent programming language with OOP support
2018-01-31T01:41:52Z asarch: And I thought Perl... well, you know
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2018-01-31T01:46:26Z asarch: I will Bike
2018-01-31T01:46:35Z asarch: Thank you
2018-01-31T01:46:51Z pjb: asarch: you may try: printf '((' ; psql --tuples-only --dbname="$DB" --user="$USER" --no-align --field-separator=')(' --record-separator='))'$'\n''(('   --command="$QUERY" ; printf '))\n'
2018-01-31T01:47:11Z pjb: asarch: or rather: printf '(' ; psql --tuples-only --dbname="$DB" --user="$USER" --no-align --field-separator=')(' --record-separator='))'$'\n''(('   --command="$QUERY" ; printf ')\n' # since it's big.
2018-01-31T01:48:39Z pjb: or perhaps: printf '("' ; psql --tuples-only --dbname="$DB" --user="$USER" --no-align --field-separator='")("' --record-separator='"))'$'\n''(("'   --command="$QUERY" ; printf ')\n' # you may also have to modify the readtable, in either case, if any field contains double quotes or stuff…
2018-01-31T01:49:09Z asarch: Wow! That's poetry gentlemen
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2018-01-31T01:50:15Z pjb: asarch: you may also just use --html, and then parse the HTML. It may be safer, if psql escapes correctly < and > in the fields.
2018-01-31T01:50:45Z asarch: Ok
2018-01-31T01:51:44Z pjb: Anyways, the idea is to generate something easy to parse.
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2018-01-31T01:52:50Z asarch: You are awesome
2018-01-31T01:53:17Z asarch: Where did you learn those kind of operations?
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2018-01-31T01:53:42Z asarch: Are you a PostgreSQL developer?
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2018-01-31T01:56:51Z pjb: asarch: psql --help !
2018-01-31T01:57:09Z pjb: asarch: we're working with unix systems.  The only thing you need to know is: man
2018-01-31T01:57:16Z pjb: asarch: first type: man man RET
2018-01-31T01:57:35Z pjb: asarch: then type: ls /bin ; then type: man cmd # for cmd in /bin.
2018-01-31T01:58:08Z asarch: I know, I know. I mean the way you combine such options and their parameters
2018-01-31T01:58:14Z pjb: asarch: unfortunately, nowadays things are more complex. Youngsters can't respect nice conventions, such as writing a unix manual page.  Instead, then write info page sometimes, or --help option to their commands.
2018-01-31T01:58:52Z asarch: Manuals are endless
2018-01-31T01:59:07Z asarch: In Python there are literally tons of them
2018-01-31T01:59:18Z pjb: and then, indeed, there's google…
2018-01-31T02:00:35Z asarch: Nowadays people usually gets angry with basic questions
2018-01-31T02:01:01Z asarch: For example, when I was learning Python I asked about how to put two commands in a single line
2018-01-31T02:01:37Z asarch: Since Python actually gets rid of the semi-colon punctuation mark to end a command just like Perl or C/C++ do
2018-01-31T02:02:25Z asarch: "How could I put two commands on a single line?" <- Blame on me :-(
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2018-01-31T02:06:26Z aeth: The only thing you need to know is man unless it's a GNU project, in which case the man just tells you to use info for the real information.
2018-01-31T02:07:04Z aeth: e.g. "The primary documentation of GNU Emacs is in the GNU Emacs Manual, which you can read using Info, either from Emacs or as a standalone program.  Please look there for complete and up-to-date documentation.  This man page is updated only when someone volunteers to do so."
2018-01-31T02:10:22Z aeth: Oh, great, the newest Firefox (48?) or something else seems to have no audio in StumpWM. Is anyone else getting this? It tells me to install PulseAudio, which is nonsense because (1) everything else still has sound and (2) Firefox on other desktops like KDE still has sound.
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2018-01-31T02:19:39Z aeth: Looks like I now need to enable pulseaudio via systemd, even though I have never needed to do that before.
2018-01-31T02:22:31Z aeth: What's particularly strange is that the change in Firefox happened 6 versions ago but I'm only having the problem now.
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2018-01-31T02:26:44Z pjb: aeth: well this is #lisp, we wouldn't know.
2018-01-31T02:27:35Z aeth: I assumed it was a flaw in stumpwm
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2018-01-31T02:28:07Z Bike: there's a stumpwm channel
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2018-01-31T02:29:39Z aeth: Technically, I think it *is* a flaw in stumpwm because KDE has some way of working around this without me having to do something. I guess I can take it to the stumpwm channel, though.
2018-01-31T02:30:55Z didi: aeth: StumpWM is just a Window Manager. KDE is a whole desktop environment. They aren't comparable.
2018-01-31T02:34:34Z didi: Every time I use `multiple-value-bind' and I don't care about some variables, I dream of writing a macro that would discard NIL variables.
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2018-01-31T02:38:25Z aeth: didi: Imo, they are comparable. The main difference is the lack of a StumpWM suite of applications (which means having to use a terminal, graphical file manager, etc., intended for a different desktop environment)
2018-01-31T02:39:54Z Bike: the point here would be that stumpwm doesn't have some DE workaround deal, since it just displays windows
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2018-01-31T02:41:30Z didi: aeth: Taking your problem as an example, StumpWM knows nothing about sound, only windows. If you are running some kind of sound server, it wasn't StumpWM that started it.
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2018-01-31T03:29:11Z iqubic: What does paredit do?
2018-01-31T03:29:48Z iqubic: in emacs.
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2018-01-31T03:31:23Z whoman: it provides editing of lisp forms in an almost geometric fashion
2018-01-31T03:31:26Z pjb: iqubic: it ensures parentheses are always balanced.
2018-01-31T03:31:34Z whoman: nah
2018-01-31T03:31:38Z pjb: iqubic: actually, it's more than that: it is a structured sexp editor.
2018-01-31T03:32:16Z iqubic: Do I need that as a lisp beginner?
2018-01-31T03:32:19Z whoman: http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
2018-01-31T03:32:32Z whoman: i wouldnt imagine writing lisp out by hand
2018-01-31T03:33:12Z Bike: you don't need it.
2018-01-31T03:33:12Z whoman: other than symbols; paredit to working with lisp in emacs is what macros are to lisp, lets say
2018-01-31T03:33:31Z pjb: iqubic: as a lisp beginner, I would 1- use the CL implementation in a terminal during 2 days. 2- use the CL implementation in emacs (without slime) during 2 days. 3- use the CL implementation in emacs with slime during 2 days.  and finally 4 use CL in emacs with slime and paredit for the rest of my life.
2018-01-31T03:33:41Z pjb: iqubic: this way, you'd know what you'd lose not using them.
2018-01-31T03:33:46Z whoman: =)
2018-01-31T03:34:57Z iqubic: I'm using SLIME already.
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2018-01-31T03:35:26Z whoman: wrapping/unwrapping and moving left and right parens, are very nice features of paredit
2018-01-31T03:35:40Z iqubic: I did steps 1 to 3 already.
2018-01-31T03:35:42Z whoman: also kill-line works by sexp and other nice things
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2018-01-31T03:45:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-31T03:45:33Z Colleen: beach: drmeister said 8 hours, 22 minutes ago: Above I dumped the environment from within convert-elementary-setq    (stored in cleavir-cst-to-ast::*debug-env*)
2018-01-31T03:45:33Z Colleen: beach: drmeister said 8 hours, 21 minutes ago:  This is the environment when compiling one of the PUSH macros in this macro... https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/cst/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/defmacro.lsp#L95  There is no mention of special-variable entries - so I think something is wrong with how the environment is being put together.
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2018-01-31T03:59:17Z ghostyyy: hi, i have heard a lot about lisp macros, does anyone know any useful and practical examples of their usage?
2018-01-31T03:59:38Z beach: ghostyyy: That's a very strange question.
2018-01-31T03:59:57Z ghostyyy: i googled it but i just get people talking about why macros are cool, ajnd not a lot of practical examples
2018-01-31T03:59:58Z beach: ghostyyy: But you can always read the book called "On Lisp" by Paul Graham.
2018-01-31T04:00:13Z beach: It is entirely dedicated to macros in Common Lisp.
2018-01-31T04:00:34Z beach: And it is available as a PDF.
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2018-01-31T04:01:25Z ghostyyy: oh, i see! are clisp macros different from hygenic scheme macros in any appreciable way? i dont know clisp well, only scheme
2018-01-31T04:01:33Z beach: ghostyyy: Basically, macros allow the programmer to introduce syntactic abstractions, thereby making it possible to cut down on a lot of boilerplate code.
2018-01-31T04:01:35Z iqubic: What is Clisp?
2018-01-31T04:01:40Z iqubic: Common Lisp?
2018-01-31T04:01:44Z ghostyyy: yes
2018-01-31T04:01:52Z pjb: nope.
2018-01-31T04:01:54Z beach: ghostyyy: CLISP is not an accepted abbreviation for Common Lisp.
2018-01-31T04:01:56Z Bike: 'clisp' is the name of a common lisp implementation
2018-01-31T04:02:04Z Bike: so it's confusing to use the word to mean common lisp in general
2018-01-31T04:02:10Z pjb: clisp is a CL implementation, written in C, hence the C in CLISP.
2018-01-31T04:02:10Z ghostyyy: oh, sorry, my apologies
2018-01-31T04:02:17Z Bike: it's cool, everyone seems to do it at first
2018-01-31T04:02:19Z beach: ghostyyy: Like I said, "On Lisp" is entirely about Common Lisp macros.
2018-01-31T04:02:28Z Bike: anyway, yes, common lisp macros are different from hygenic scheme macros
2018-01-31T04:02:45Z beach: ghostyyy: Common Lisp macros have the full language at their disposal in order to transform a form to a different form.
2018-01-31T04:02:47Z iqubic: What is hygenic scheme?
2018-01-31T04:02:51Z pjb: cf. Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2018-01-31T04:03:05Z Bike: iqubic: scheme is a programming language. it has "hygenic macros"
2018-01-31T04:03:14Z ghostyyy: hygenic (scheme macros)
2018-01-31T04:03:19Z Bike: right.
2018-01-31T04:03:47Z iqubic: What are hygenic macros?
2018-01-31T04:04:06Z ghostyyy: well, they avoid capture errors in generated code
2018-01-31T04:04:17Z beach: iqubic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro
2018-01-31T04:05:02Z Bike: common lisp macros are much simpler. a macro is just a function that you call on source forms, that return macroexpanded forms.
2018-01-31T04:05:17Z beach: ghostyyy: For someone who doesn't know what macros are for, you seem to know a lot about them.
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2018-01-31T04:06:32Z ghostyyy: i have studied them a bit but i only get academic examples about how to define "cond" fifteen different times a la https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/tr356.pdf
2018-01-31T04:06:38Z Bike: the downside to simpler is that you have to think about actual symbols and worry about a bunch of stuff, but i've never had an issue with it
2018-01-31T04:06:42Z Bike: well, cond is a pretty good macro
2018-01-31T04:06:57Z beach: ghostyyy: On Lisp contains much bigger examples.
2018-01-31T04:07:04Z ghostyyy: well, i have to agree with you there Bike
2018-01-31T04:07:11Z iqubic: Why not just use gensym?
2018-01-31T04:07:16Z ghostyyy: beach, yeah, it looks good! ill have a look at it
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2018-01-31T04:08:01Z ghostyyy: iqubic, that only solves one half of the accidental caputre problem, the problem where your macro binds a name already in its context
2018-01-31T04:08:15Z beach: iqubic: Certain ideas in programming language design want to protect the programmer from himself/herself, so the language is trying to make it impossible to introduce certain problems.
2018-01-31T04:08:23Z ghostyyy: the other half is where the macro's context binds a name which has the same name as a global
2018-01-31T04:08:33Z ghostyyy: then the macro invocation uses the local name and not the global name
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2018-01-31T04:12:00Z whoman: prolog macros are nice
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2018-01-31T04:18:26Z drmeister: Hygienic macros are more important in a Lisp-1, with a single shared namespace for function names and variable names.   Common Lisp is a Lisp-2 (or more?) and problems that hygienic macros solve in a Lisp-1 are more conveniently solved with GENSYM.
2018-01-31T04:19:06Z drmeister: That was one take-home message I learned from "Let Over Lambda"
2018-01-31T04:19:38Z pfdietz: Also, there's less problem with overriding of functions by local variables in CL.   Go ahead and use 'list' as a variable name, none of that schemish 'lst' stuff.
2018-01-31T04:19:46Z ghostyyy: drmeister, what about the problem i mentioned, where some code shadows a global variable, which is also used by a macro, and then that macro is invoked inside of that context?
2018-01-31T04:19:58Z ghostyyy: wont the macro use the local binding, and not the global binding?
2018-01-31T04:20:45Z Bike: yes. cl also prevents shadowing standard names, which mostly makes that not a problem, though it's not a very "clean" solution
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2018-01-31T04:21:11Z drmeister: I think you can get around that by declaring variables locally special?
2018-01-31T04:21:33Z beach: ghostyyy: Not sure whether you are talking about the expansion code or the expanded code.
2018-01-31T04:22:05Z Bike: (let ((x 4)) (macrolet ((m () 'x)) (let ((x 5)) (m)))) => 5 instead of 4, i'm guessing.
2018-01-31T04:22:17Z ghostyyy: yes, that
2018-01-31T04:22:32Z ghostyyy: drmeister, im not sure what you mean by that exactly
2018-01-31T04:22:37Z pfdietz: You don't want information to be passed down into macros using special variables.  Use the macro environment.
2018-01-31T04:22:52Z beach: ghostyyy: The expanded code should not use any free variables that way.
2018-01-31T04:23:28Z Bike: well "free variables" can include functions.
2018-01-31T04:23:33Z ghostyyy: pfdietz, are you supposed to just pass every function that you plan on using inside of the macro to it via macro arguments?
2018-01-31T04:23:40Z ghostyyy: or did you mean something else
2018-01-31T04:24:03Z beach: Bike: Sure, but if it only uses standard functions, the standard prevents shadowing, as you pointed out.
2018-01-31T04:24:26Z ghostyyy: ah, so the solution is "only use standard functions inside of macros"?
2018-01-31T04:24:28Z Bike: yeah. i'm just saying, pretty much any macroexpansion has free variables. it's just not usually an issue in practice.
2018-01-31T04:24:41Z pfdietz: ghostyyy: one thing to remember is that when you compile code, the macros are evaluated at compile time, not when the code they are in is run.  So if that code binds a variable later, it doesn't affect the macro at all.  The macro is already expanded.
2018-01-31T04:24:43Z Bike: no, the solution is don't shadow things much and it doesn't come up, really.
2018-01-31T04:25:07Z ghostyyy: pfdietz, i am aware of that
2018-01-31T04:25:18Z Bike: pfdietz: i think you're on a different issue.
2018-01-31T04:25:23Z pfdietz: Ok.
2018-01-31T04:25:23Z drmeister: Anyway Common Lisp macros are awesome - Scheme macros feel kind of "nerfed".
2018-01-31T04:25:28Z beach: ghostyyy: Also, the package system prevents a lot of accidents like that.
2018-01-31T04:25:30Z drmeister: (oh yeah - I'm going there)
2018-01-31T04:25:33Z drmeister: :-)
2018-01-31T04:25:55Z Bike: i don't think i remember the last time i shadowed a function binding
2018-01-31T04:26:19Z beach: ghostyyy: A macro that expands to the use of a globally defined function that is not standard, is typically defined in the same package as that function.
2018-01-31T04:26:28Z ghostyyy: drmeister, out of curiosity, how do you feel about type systems :^)
2018-01-31T04:26:51Z ghostyyy: beach, i see
2018-01-31T04:26:55Z ghostyyy: i find this all a bit fascinating
2018-01-31T04:27:19Z beach: ghostyyy: So to have an accident, client code would have to write (flet ((package::secret-function (....))) (macro-call ...))
2018-01-31T04:27:30Z Bike: it's like, i get that common lisp macros are dangerous in theory, and that hygenic macros are safe, but it just has not happened for me
2018-01-31T04:27:47Z Bike: i have never run into this latter situation in several years of programming and had to be introduced to the possibility by an academic paper
2018-01-31T04:27:50Z Bike: it's weird
2018-01-31T04:27:52Z beach: "dangerous" is a very strong word.
2018-01-31T04:28:04Z Bike: "in theory" is intended to neuter it
2018-01-31T04:28:11Z beach: OK.
2018-01-31T04:28:13Z ghostyyy: it honestly has never really occurred to me that someone might not think macro hygiene is an important thing to have, but i guess if its not a problem you encounter often then it makes sense
2018-01-31T04:28:31Z beach: ghostyyy: The problem never happens in fact.
2018-01-31T04:28:54Z whoman: Moreover!
2018-01-31T04:28:57Z beach: ghostyyy: Perhaps it does for newbies who don't know about GENSYM, but not for programmers with a bit of experience.
2018-01-31T04:29:04Z pfdietz: Or, if it does happen, there are so many more common ways to shoot yourself in the foot that it doesn't matter.
2018-01-31T04:29:07Z ghostyyy: in retrospect i do find it kind of amusing that people have done serious academic research on how to let people get away with shadowing basic operations like cons
2018-01-31T04:29:45Z ghostyyy: still, i do feel like its a good thing, just that it gives you a nice guarantee that nothing bad will happen, no matter how hard you try
2018-01-31T04:29:46Z pfdietz: You can shadow CONS in CL.  You work in a package where the symbol CONS means something else.
2018-01-31T04:30:02Z whoman: Furthermore!
2018-01-31T04:30:16Z Bike: contrariwise
2018-01-31T04:30:20Z beach: ghostyyy: It is a matter of compromise.  The more such guarantees that the language can provide, the harder it gets to use it.
2018-01-31T04:30:23Z whoman: ahah *adds to library*
2018-01-31T04:31:02Z ghostyyy: beach, yeah, i can get that
2018-01-31T04:31:54Z Bike: i do like the conceptual simplicity of it. macro function's just a function you call on some code. obviously you can do all kinds of horrible things in that framework, but programming is all about that anyway
2018-01-31T04:32:02Z khrbt: is there x86_64 cmucl?
2018-01-31T04:32:16Z beach: khrbt: Why would you like CMUCL?
2018-01-31T04:33:58Z beach: khrbt: I mean, what is it in CMUCL that you need, and that is not also in SBCL?
2018-01-31T04:34:48Z khrbt: it is mainly out of curiosity.  I am just exploring things.
2018-01-31T04:35:00Z beach: I see.
2018-01-31T04:35:43Z drmeister prefers a powerful language that doesn't come with airbags, training wheels and safety rails.  Wheee!
2018-01-31T04:37:27Z ghostyyy: drmeister, i thought so :p
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2018-01-31T04:41:39Z pfdietz: In a large project those get added back, layered on top of the language as social restrictions to get a large group of programmers to work well together.  Things like "thou shalt not use :: on any symbols in your code".
2018-01-31T04:43:11Z ghostyyy: thou shalt prefix all of thine identifiers with the name of thine module
2018-01-31T04:45:31Z whoman: surrender or die
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2018-01-31T06:19:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/w5Q899Sw/
2018-01-31T06:20:00Z drmeister: Do the declares on line 3 make any sense?
2018-01-31T06:20:14Z drmeister: I and R are variable names - not function names
2018-01-31T06:20:41Z drmeister: This is generated by the DO* macro and I'm trying to track down where they are coming from
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2018-01-31T06:25:37Z drmeister: Got it - it was a typo in the C++ code that canonicalized declarations
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2018-01-31T07:25:18Z phoe: drmeister: was the typo s/ftype/type/?
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2018-01-31T07:49:02Z kami: Good morning.
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2018-01-31T07:50:12Z jack_rabbit: 'morning
2018-01-31T07:57:57Z stylewarning: Are there any good tutorials about properly creating a new data type in Common Lisp? I feel as though many data types I create that are public facing are not all that good with respect to things like printing, readable representations/literals, FASL safety, etc.
2018-01-31T07:58:51Z stylewarning: It would be nice to have a checklist for creating a high quality user data type, be it a new class or structure.
2018-01-31T07:59:24Z phoe: stylewarning: I think the best idea is to start creating one, fill it with your ideas, post it here, gather comments, update the document, rinse, repeat.
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2018-01-31T07:59:38Z phoe: I am not aware of any such document related to Common Lisp.
2018-01-31T08:00:19Z stylewarning: Yeah I may do that. The impetus is to redesign CL-ALGEBRAIC-DATA-TYPE which is rough around the edges in terms of things like respecting print variables.
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2018-01-31T08:00:38Z phoe: shka: ^
2018-01-31T08:00:50Z phoe: stylewarning: I see. Good luck with it!
2018-01-31T08:00:58Z shka: phoe: uhhh
2018-01-31T08:02:11Z phoe: shka: data type discussion, I thought to link you up
2018-01-31T08:02:38Z shka: well, what i would know about that
2018-01-31T08:03:19Z phoe: you are defining data types within cl-df
2018-01-31T08:03:23Z phoe: cl-ds*
2018-01-31T08:03:29Z phoe: so you have some experience, I guess (:
2018-01-31T08:04:15Z shka: well, yes, but FASL safety?
2018-01-31T08:04:25Z shka: i have no clue what is safe and what is not
2018-01-31T08:04:34Z shka: but i would gladly find out
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2018-01-31T08:11:36Z stylewarning: Maybe FASL safety is a poor term. What I mean is making sure your data structures can be dumped by having load forms and the like
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2018-01-31T08:43:12Z beach: stylewarning: You mean that instances of the type can be dumped?
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2018-01-31T08:45:07Z beach: I do that by defining a reader macro `[', so that an object is represented as [package::class :initarg1 value1 :initarg2 value2 ..].  The reader macro simply reads the list and then does (apply #'make-instance list).
2018-01-31T08:45:29Z beach: That way, I can handle arbitrary circularity through #= and ##.
2018-01-31T08:47:26Z beach: For the other aspects of data types, I would be willing to review your design.
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2018-01-31T09:16:06Z Shinmera: stylewarning: You should always provide a print-object method that prints it in a usable way, and possibly a describe-object method for detailed description.
2018-01-31T09:16:39Z Shinmera: stylewarning: make-load-form is only necessary if you expect it to be useful to use your object as a literal.
2018-01-31T09:16:45Z Shinmera: which is not very often
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2018-01-31T10:36:30Z loke: Shinmera: isn't it important to use MAKE-LOAD-FORM if you have soemthing like (defconstant +foo+ (make-instance 'my-special-class))
2018-01-31T10:36:55Z Shinmera: loke: Well yeah because then it's a literal.
2018-01-31T10:37:25Z Shinmera: Anything that is dumped to a FASL.
2018-01-31T10:37:32Z loke: Right.
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2018-01-31T11:45:58Z MrMc: For my Bachelor Thesis I would like to write a common lisp library is eBay API worth the while
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2018-01-31T12:15:03Z cess11: MrMc: they have twenty or so
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2018-01-31T12:20:39Z MrMc: cess11: Do you mean there are 20 common lisp eBay API sdks
2018-01-31T12:23:25Z drmeister: phoe: The typo was the generation of the ftype
2018-01-31T12:23:26Z Colleen: drmeister: Shinmera said 1 hour, 38 minutes ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/7twkk9/numerical_libraries_for_scientific_computing_in/
2018-01-31T12:23:42Z drmeister: Shinmera: Got it - I responded to the poster.
2018-01-31T12:23:52Z drmeister: Thank you very much
2018-01-31T12:24:07Z cess11: no, I mean that this company exposes about that many fairly open API:s. you'll probably want to decide which are interesting for your studies.
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2018-01-31T12:26:08Z MrMc: cess11:I am interested in porting the ones done in the python sdk
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2018-01-31T12:30:01Z cess11: MrMc: why the python sdk?
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2018-01-31T12:35:04Z MrMc: cess11: It's a guideline of what working code should look like
2018-01-31T12:35:43Z cess11: yeah but why pick python over .NET or Java?
2018-01-31T12:36:02Z Shinmera: MrMc: Do you even have anyone that would supervise such a thesis? A professor that would accept and review it?
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2018-01-31T12:38:06Z MrMc: cess11:python is easy to read for me
2018-01-31T12:38:46Z cess11: doesn't sound like a particularly academic argument to me
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2018-01-31T12:39:40Z MrMc: Shinmera: I will have to sell the idea to my internet programming Prof
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2018-01-31T12:40:25Z Shinmera: Not just that, you need to find someone, probably an assistant of the prof, to supervise you for the duration of the thesis. I heavily doubt you'll find anyone that knows Common Lisp, so I heavily doubt you'll find anyone willing to do that.
2018-01-31T12:40:26Z MrMc: cess11: The idea is just to implement the APIs implemented in Python
2018-01-31T12:40:28Z cess11: also, the others are more verbose and less hackish in their syntax, they are very easy to understand.
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2018-01-31T12:40:57Z cess11: why? who would want to use it often?
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2018-01-31T12:42:25Z Shinmera: Besides, what you're proposing does not sound suitable for a thesis. How would it further science? What kind of prior research would you cite? How does this present anything new? A thesis is more than just implementing a piece of code.
2018-01-31T12:42:39Z cess11: usually there's something resembling a research question in a thesis, what would yours be?
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2018-01-31T12:45:03Z MrMc: Something along the lines can a language standadised in the past millenium be used for eCommerce today
2018-01-31T12:48:13Z cess11: the answer to that one is known
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2018-01-31T12:48:43Z cess11: doubt anyone would say no to it
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2018-01-31T12:49:04Z ioa: good morning
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2018-01-31T12:52:47Z cess11: ioa: good morning
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2018-01-31T12:53:14Z jmercouris: I got this error from uiop "Program args must all be simple strings", what is a simple string?
2018-01-31T12:53:30Z Shinmera: clhs simple-string
2018-01-31T12:53:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_st.htm
2018-01-31T12:54:00Z jmercouris: Is there a conversion method for string --> simple string?
2018-01-31T12:54:52Z cess11: MrMc: if you were to search for something like 'common lisp ecommerce' you'll find some useful resources. if you choose a project you can express formally it will increase your chances of getting someone to grade it.
2018-01-31T12:54:56Z Shinmera: (replace (make-string (length string)) string)
2018-01-31T12:55:47Z Xach: jmercouris: Coerce springs to mind.
2018-01-31T12:56:08Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't think simple-string is specified to be known by coerce, right?
2018-01-31T12:56:16Z jmercouris: didn't make an error in my repl
2018-01-31T12:56:20Z jmercouris: let me try it in my actual program now
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2018-01-31T12:57:09Z jmercouris: didn't seem to like that :\
2018-01-31T12:57:14Z jmercouris: maybe I have a mistake elsewhere though
2018-01-31T12:57:50Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't know. I can't tell quickly from the rules.
2018-01-31T12:58:13Z Xach: A simple-string is a sequence, so maybe it's covered.
2018-01-31T12:58:17Z Shinmera: "If the result-type is a recognizable subtype of vector, and the object is a sequence, then the result is a vector that has the same elements as object. If result-type is a specialized type, the result has an actual array element type that is the result of upgrading the element type part of that specialized type. If no element type is specified, the element type defaults to t. If the implementation cannot
2018-01-31T12:58:20Z Shinmera: determine the element type, an error is signaled."
2018-01-31T12:58:25Z Shinmera: But that doesn't seem to guarantee simple-ness to me
2018-01-31T12:58:30Z Shinmera: Just that the element-type is proper.
2018-01-31T12:58:47Z MrMc: cess11: I will try to look for a formal way to express it
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2018-01-31T12:59:47Z Shinmera: I mean I see no reason for it to not be simple in an implementation, but it doesn't seem guaranteed either.
2018-01-31T13:00:25Z Xach: Shinmera: the description of /result/ suggests it to me.
2018-01-31T13:00:55Z Shinmera: Ah, right.
2018-01-31T13:00:58Z jmercouris: I was quoting the list in which there was a nested coerce...
2018-01-31T13:01:01Z jmercouris: of course it would not work
2018-01-31T13:01:34Z jmercouris: anyways, coerce works, thank you
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2018-01-31T13:16:02Z jmercouris: does uiop read $path? how does it know where a program is?
2018-01-31T13:16:27Z Xach: jmercouris: i think uiop defers to whatever the implementation provides. on sbcl run-program uses execve.
2018-01-31T13:16:47Z Xach: err, hmm, that's not quite right
2018-01-31T13:16:57Z Xach: there's an exec variant that is specified to look in the PATH...
2018-01-31T13:17:04Z jmercouris: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp is full of +implementation flags
2018-01-31T13:17:20Z jmercouris: I guess I'll try to find the ccl ones
2018-01-31T13:17:23Z Xach: execvp and execlp etc
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2018-01-31T13:21:46Z mercourisj: uiop does seem to be aware of shell specific variables
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2018-01-31T13:21:53Z mercourisj: because if I execute "echo" it knows
2018-01-31T13:22:24Z p_l: it might be calling system(3)
2018-01-31T13:23:17Z Xach: The answers are a few M-.s away, except asdf's many wrapping forms might jump you to the wrong place.
2018-01-31T13:24:35Z mercourisj: Yeah, I've been looking at run-program...I'd need to spend a little bit of time to understand it
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2018-01-31T13:24:45Z mercourisj: there's some indirection
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2018-01-31T13:41:01Z pfdietz: (coerce <sequence> 'simple-string) will give you a simple-string, since the value returned by (coerce x y) is of type y.
2018-01-31T13:42:28Z KZiemian: It looks like that Sonia Keeyne book is still outside public domain
2018-01-31T13:42:41Z Xach: That is true.
2018-01-31T13:42:45Z KZiemian: any other good material for CLOS?
2018-01-31T13:42:55Z Xach: KZiemian: practical common lisp is freely readable online
2018-01-31T13:43:24Z KZiemian: Xach: asaid ,,Succesfull Lisp'' my main source of Lisp knowledge
2018-01-31T13:43:46Z KZiemian: maybe I should try to read whole SL again?
2018-01-31T13:43:58Z Xach: KZiemian: or read practical common lisp?
2018-01-31T13:44:50Z KZiemian: Xach: I must left reading PCL for sickness of to much theory and to less programming
2018-01-31T13:45:04Z Xach: KZiemian: try again
2018-01-31T13:45:15Z KZiemian: Xach: I stuck in condition and restarts chapter
2018-01-31T13:45:17Z jackdaniel: PCL has a bare minimum of theory (imho)
2018-01-31T13:45:28Z Xach: KZiemian: go to another chapter
2018-01-31T13:45:33Z Shinmera: "practical" is in its name!
2018-01-31T13:45:43Z jackdaniel: that
2018-01-31T13:45:46Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: true
2018-01-31T13:47:26Z KZiemian: Shinmera: that show how few things to program in Lisp I now have
2018-01-31T13:47:48Z KZiemian: Shinmera: mostly is numeric in Numpy or some graphic in C++
2018-01-31T13:50:42Z KZiemian: I need more practice in CL, definietly
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2018-01-31T14:11:19Z AeroNotix: PCL is imho the best book to learn CL imho. It doesn't put CL on a pedestal like a lot of books do. It treats the language just as a language. Rather than trying to put a halo of mythology around it.
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2018-01-31T14:12:53Z dlowe: Honestly, it was the most amazing thing for a long time, but these days it's a solid middle-of-the-road language with a lot of history.
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2018-01-31T14:16:03Z AeroNotix: Don't know about that. I use a lot of the new fangled languages and I still find myself thinking how much easier things would be in CL.
2018-01-31T14:16:36Z AeroNotix: literally the only thing I think CL doesnt have going for it is a good standardized concurrency model. there are good libraries which are portable but still.
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2018-01-31T14:37:45Z rumbler31: AeroNotix: can you expand on that last part a little?
2018-01-31T14:43:34Z AeroNotix: rumbler31: I just mean that in the CL standard it doesn't standardize any concurrency interface as far as I know (threads, actor model etc)
2018-01-31T14:44:36Z Shinmera: atomicity of operations and the memory model are good things to know for concurrency.
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2018-01-31T14:45:17Z AeroNotix: Right and if CL specified a higher level interface for say, threads and related functionality (mutexes) a lot of the atomics are implied.
2018-01-31T14:45:21Z dlowe: Yeah, the newer languages all have their own scheduler and so far only CMUCL has done this (that I know of) and it wasn't amazing.
2018-01-31T14:45:48Z heisig:  AeroNotix: sometimes I have the impression that concurrency is such a blurred topic, that maybe the best approach is to leave it outside of a language standard...
2018-01-31T14:45:49Z pjb: AeroNotix: I wouldn't say that anu atomocs are implied.
2018-01-31T14:46:22Z pjb: AeroNotix: on the contrary. For example some implementation (having threads), ensure atomicity of hash-table accessess while others don't.
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2018-01-31T14:46:33Z AeroNotix: pjb: depends how you look at it. If it's parallel and you specify a mutex interface the implementation would require some level of atomicity
2018-01-31T14:46:54Z Shinmera: heisig: The problem with that is that it becomes very hard or impossible (under efficiency constraints) to write portable software.
2018-01-31T14:47:02Z AeroNotix: I wasn't around in them days. Were threads even a thing back then?
2018-01-31T14:47:03Z pjb: AeroNotix: even setf of a variable is not always implemented atomicly (eg. on 64-bit machines with 32-bit data bus, you could end with botched  data or references!).
2018-01-31T14:47:18Z AeroNotix: that makes sense
2018-01-31T14:47:34Z pjb: AeroNotix: the alternative would be to have locks everywhere! It would be way to slow for most purposes.
2018-01-31T14:47:38Z AeroNotix: What I was meaning is that if there was a standardized concurrency interface a lot of those issues would've needed to be addressed.
2018-01-31T14:48:00Z AeroNotix: even if the standard said that it wasn't expected to be atomic
2018-01-31T14:48:10Z pjb: They would have to be addressed at this interface level.
2018-01-31T14:48:40Z pjb: On the other hand, the application developper usually know what his mutexes are, so he can add only the locks that are needed.
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2018-01-31T14:49:27Z AeroNotix: Right, I agree with that approach. I wasn't meaning that (for example) setf would need to become atomic as part of the standard just that having a concurrency model in the standard that operations like setf would need to have their atomicity explained.
2018-01-31T14:49:35Z heisig: Shinmera: I know. On the other hand, standardizing on concurrency can also screw you at a later time if hardware capabilities change.
2018-01-31T14:49:46Z Shinmera: heisig: Of course.
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2018-01-31T14:50:07Z heisig: Shinmera: Then you would have some bogus requirement in the standard.
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2018-01-31T14:50:13Z AeroNotix: pjb: I've had it said to me before that including a concurrency model in the standard would've been a bad idea. For example if green threads or the actor model was chosen and a new technology appeared and rendered it obsolete
2018-01-31T14:50:23Z AeroNotix: but implementations would need to include it for standard's sake.
2018-01-31T14:50:25Z tfb: AeroNotix: the LispMs had threads (which they called processes if I remember rightly)
2018-01-31T14:50:26Z rumbler31: well so... what, is the argument that languages that have concurrency friendly intrinsics may restrict implementation flexibilty?
2018-01-31T14:51:03Z pjb: AeroNotix: indeed. Imagine you're implementing CL on a GPU. You won't have the same problems at all as when implementing it on a CPU.
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2018-01-31T14:51:33Z AeroNotix: Right. Perhaps if the API was described broadly enough #'EXECUTE-CONCURRENTLY or something. That doesn't imply any particular model.
2018-01-31T14:51:43Z AeroNotix: (obviously you would need more than that^)
2018-01-31T14:51:49Z pjb: At one time, processors didn't have cache memory and memory barriers.  Now they all have it.
2018-01-31T14:52:19Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Yes, though that's only part of it. The other part is that the requirements by the spec may be too harsh or even wrong, affecting not just implementations but also users.
2018-01-31T14:53:35Z AeroNotix: yeah it'd be a poor experience if they added a model which only made sense at the time but was superseded by better technology today
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2018-01-31T14:57:32Z dlowe: If it were abstracted with a nice interface, the implementation could use the better technology.
2018-01-31T14:57:38Z dlowe: (in theory)
2018-01-31T14:58:17Z AeroNotix: yeah that's what I meant with #'EXECUTE-CONCURRENTLY
2018-01-31T14:58:49Z dlowe: That's a start, but the interface includes stuff to pass data around, locking, etc.
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2018-01-31T15:05:02Z AeroNotix: sure, if you kept it generic enough the underlying implementation could be whatever you needed it to be. That said, some models would need primitives for model-specific operations
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2018-01-31T15:09:00Z mgsk: How do I do something like this: https://gist.github.com/notmgsk/3204d1ce758dff6702b3389a33ecc5b0 I want START to begin at zero, and then increment it at the end of the loop
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2018-01-31T15:11:02Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2018-01-31T15:11:54Z dlowe: mgsk: if you do multiple FOR clauses, they are executed in parallel
2018-01-31T15:12:11Z dlowe: so you can just add "for start from 0" instead of WITH
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2018-01-31T15:14:39Z mgsk: But sbcl complains that I'm duplicating the variable START in INTO form
2018-01-31T15:16:39Z dlowe: ah, I see.  Maybe you want collect (1+ (pkg-time pkg)) into start
2018-01-31T15:17:02Z dlowe: you don't want it incremented, you just want one more than the return value
2018-01-31T15:17:17Z dlowe: and actually, that makes no effing sense because collect builds a list
2018-01-31T15:17:29Z mgsk: Right, I meant to use summing, but the problem is the same
2018-01-31T15:17:46Z mgsk: Begin with start = 0, then at the end of the loop, set start to start = start + something
2018-01-31T15:18:12Z dlowe: for start = 0 then (1+ (pkg-time pkg))
2018-01-31T15:19:21Z dlowe: that will teach me to not read carefully
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2018-01-31T15:24:28Z mgsk: dlowe: (loop for i in '(1 2 3) for start = 0 then (+ start i) do (format t "~D~%" start))
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2018-01-31T15:24:53Z mgsk: Ideally this would result in => 0, 1, 3
2018-01-31T15:24:58Z mgsk: I'm not quite there yet :D
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2018-01-31T15:25:46Z dlowe: uh, how?
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2018-01-31T15:27:05Z dlowe: you want to add the *previous* value, eh?
2018-01-31T15:28:17Z dlowe: (loop for i in '(1 2 3) with start = 0 do (format t "~d~%" start) (incf start i))
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2018-01-31T15:30:14Z KZiemian: see you
2018-01-31T15:30:16Z mgsk: dlowe: (loop for i in '(1 2 3) with start = 0 do (format t "~D~%" start) (incf start i))
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2018-01-31T15:31:24Z dlowe: mgsk: format directives are case-insensitive
2018-01-31T15:32:16Z mgsk: dlowe: ignore me. I don't even know why I pasted the same thing you wrote.
2018-01-31T15:32:24Z mgsk: I might be having a mental breakdown
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2018-01-31T15:32:47Z dlowe: you're suffering from a parenthesis deficiency. Only more lisp can help you.
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2018-01-31T15:36:24Z mercourisj: Alright, so I have within my program something like (defvar some-system-path (calculate-default-path)), when I compile my lisp image, the path calculated on my machine is persisted into the image
2018-01-31T15:37:03Z mercourisj: I want this software to work on other users computers as well, so somehow I should defer (calculate-default-path) to when they launch the program
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2018-01-31T15:37:21Z mercourisj: because my defvar is a top level form, I was thinking of writing a macro that does this, does this seem like a good idea or no?
2018-01-31T15:38:10Z mercourisj: a macro that will take something like (def-deferred-var var-name var-initialization-function), and var-initialization-function will be invoked on startup to setf some defvar
2018-01-31T15:38:21Z Xach: that is all right
2018-01-31T15:39:24Z AeroNotix: mercourisj: could also setf it in your initialization function (e.g. #'MAIN)
2018-01-31T15:39:39Z mercourisj: ok, I'll go down that path then, thanks for your opinion
2018-01-31T15:39:58Z mercourisj: AeroNotix: Yeah, I was going to put them in a list of vars that will be iterated calling their initalization function
2018-01-31T15:40:08Z mercourisj: AeroNotix: Something akin to the approach for the defcommand macro which also maintains a list of commands
2018-01-31T15:40:31Z AeroNotix: That said, something something globals are bad
2018-01-31T15:41:02Z AeroNotix: mercourisj: is there no way your program could be refactored to not need the global defvar?
2018-01-31T15:41:03Z mercourisj: Yeah yeah, but compromises must be made in favor of emacsyness
2018-01-31T15:41:28Z mercourisj: well, consider *global-map* for the global key map, I guess yes, technically it is possible, but it doesn't make sense
2018-01-31T15:41:40Z dlowe: yeah, but so is threading a super-common piece of data through each and every function
2018-01-31T15:41:46Z mercourisj: also, you had to pass around references of your browser object to every command
2018-01-31T15:41:48Z dlowe: (er, is bad too)
2018-01-31T15:41:59Z AeroNotix: mercourisj: not wanting to start a war but emulating emacs style is a bad practice. Elisp is a terrible lisp and perpetuates bad style
2018-01-31T15:42:30Z mercourisj: You are correct, but, compromises must be made :D
2018-01-31T15:42:41Z mercourisj: I broke traditions already, maybe the program will evolve this away with time
2018-01-31T15:42:42Z AeroNotix: mercourisj: yep, understand. I've said my piece :)
2018-01-31T15:42:46Z mercourisj: and I'll get further from Emacs
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2018-01-31T16:20:48Z pjb: mgsk: with clauses are evaluated before for clauses, it would be preferable to write them first.
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2018-01-31T16:22:35Z Timzi: does anybody here run slime on a remote machine? I'm trying to connect to the remote repl, but my /tmp/slime.* file is created on the remote machine and tramp (or swank?) isn't recognizing it's not on my local
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2018-01-31T16:23:31Z pjb: Timzi: never had a problem M-x slime-connect to connect to a remote, as long as swank-server was launched.
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2018-01-31T16:24:26Z paule32: ö
2018-01-31T16:24:33Z paule32: pjb: hi
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2018-01-31T16:24:42Z Timzi: oh this could be my problem, I'm trying to start it with just M-x slime
2018-01-31T16:24:48Z Timzi: one sec while I check that out
2018-01-31T16:25:01Z pjb: https://codeshare.io/anXKbY
2018-01-31T16:25:08Z paule32: pjb: i done work successfull - clisp with readline and cffi
2018-01-31T16:25:18Z pjb: paule32: great.
2018-01-31T16:25:29Z pjb: paule32: cffi is not needed to compile clisp with readline.
2018-01-31T16:25:33Z paule32: pjb: slime works, too in emacs
2018-01-31T16:25:35Z paule32: no
2018-01-31T16:25:39Z paule32: but later
2018-01-31T16:25:46Z pjb: ok
2018-01-31T16:26:15Z paule32: the compilation of readline was a little bit tricky
2018-01-31T16:27:00Z paule32: the compiler source makefile run, and create a -fas and .lib file - staticaly
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2018-01-31T16:27:29Z paule32: so i solve the issue with rl_readline_state
2018-01-31T16:28:02Z paule32: i comment the line "ulong rl_readline_state" in the the readline.h header file
2018-01-31T16:28:31Z paule32: and compile with lisp, so i had the automatic created readline.c file
2018-01-31T16:28:55Z paule32: now, i go on, and do a manual compile: gcc -O2 -c readline.c
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2018-01-31T16:29:20Z paule32: then doing a next "make" run, compiles all fine
2018-01-31T16:29:24Z paule32: puh
2018-01-31T16:29:28Z paule32: what a work
2018-01-31T16:29:30Z paule32: :-)
2018-01-31T16:29:47Z paule32: now, i have a working clisp standard system
2018-01-31T16:30:03Z paule32: i go to eat a little bit
2018-01-31T16:30:10Z paule32: so i am in bg
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2018-01-31T16:33:53Z Timzi: pjb: that got me up and running, thanks!
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2018-01-31T16:38:45Z pjb: paule32: you didn't understand at all what I meant. I said to compile CLISP itself, not some library.
2018-01-31T16:39:18Z pjb: paule32: in the build instruction of clisp, it's explained how to configure it to link with readline, so that clisp can provide history navigation in its REPL on the terminal.
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2018-01-31T16:41:25Z pjb: paule32: but basically, if libreadline is available it will be automatic. You can disable it with   ./configure --without-readline
2018-01-31T16:42:08Z pjb: paule32: on the other hand, if libreadline is not in a standard place, you can indicate it with ./configure   --with-libtermcap-prefix=DIR    --with-libreadline-prefix[=DIR]  search for libreadline in DIR/include and DIR/lib
2018-01-31T16:42:08Z pjb:  
2018-01-31T16:42:20Z pjb: why the fuck do I have to read the READMES for you?
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2018-01-31T17:00:13Z ebzzry: Does CL have an equivalent of Racket’s slideshow?
2018-01-31T17:00:32Z Xach: ebzzry: what does racket's slideshow do?
2018-01-31T17:00:49Z ebzzry: Xach: they are for slideshow presentations.
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2018-01-31T17:00:59Z pjb: ebzzry: No.
2018-01-31T17:01:02Z Xach: ebzzry: I don't know of anything like that.
2018-01-31T17:01:17Z Xach: Dan Barlow had a CLX hack many, many years ago
2018-01-31T17:01:21Z pjb: ebrasca: CL is a programming language. Racket is a program, including implementations of programming languages.  They don't provide anything in common.
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2018-01-31T17:01:54Z pjb: ebrasca: slideshows are done in emacs…
2018-01-31T17:02:02Z ebzzry: Is there anything close to using CL as the language for displaying these slideshows? Or, really no?
2018-01-31T17:02:29Z Xach: Not that I've heard of
2018-01-31T17:02:42Z antoszka: ebzzry: I'm sure you could hack up something quick using the new GL or Qt libraries, but there's nothing ready-made for slideshows that comes to mind
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2018-01-31T17:04:09Z antoszka: ebzzry: maybe even this: https://github.com/vydd/sketch
2018-01-31T17:04:21Z ebzzry: antoszka: oh, sketch. hm.
2018-01-31T17:04:34Z antoszka: (a random thought, probably not the best)
2018-01-31T17:04:46Z ebzzry: By the way, does anyone know more about the CL Repl app on the Google Play Store?
2018-01-31T17:04:52Z ebzzry: antoszka: thanks!
2018-01-31T17:05:27Z ebzzry: what I only know is that is uses EQL underneath.
2018-01-31T17:05:35Z antoszka: ebzzry: *and* Qt?
2018-01-31T17:05:51Z antoszka: I think it's EQL married to Qt, but jackdaniel will know more.
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2018-01-31T17:06:48Z Shinmera: EQL is ECL's Qt bindings.
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2018-01-31T17:08:27Z antoszka: ah, yeah, mixed names up
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2018-01-31T17:10:29Z jsfiidsf: why this doesn't print anything? https://pastebin.com/cdB5ggg3
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2018-01-31T17:12:25Z pjb: jsfiidsf: because there's not any printing function called.
2018-01-31T17:12:35Z didi: Xach: News on the SLIME alternative front?
2018-01-31T17:13:05Z Xach: didi: none to speak of
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2018-01-31T17:13:14Z didi: Xach: Thanks.
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2018-01-31T17:14:19Z ebzzry: ok
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2018-01-31T17:25:17Z whoman: sigh. people will always want alternatives. what a world. but variety is the spice of life perhaps
2018-01-31T17:26:11Z whoman: i could only imagine how productive someone could be with eating/spewing lisp code with slime and paredit and emacs ; probably faster than thought. there is also a paredit alt called something like that too.
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2018-01-31T17:29:23Z ebzzry: thanks
2018-01-31T17:29:41Z ebzzry: I wonder how do I load quicklisp on that thing.
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2018-01-31T17:31:21Z Xach: heh
2018-01-31T17:32:12Z whoman: hmm. depends on paths. the local .app folders/dirs should be writable ...
2018-01-31T17:32:20Z whoman: not sure what it thinks about $HOME and that, tho
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2018-01-31T17:36:44Z AeroNotix: What SLIME alternative?
2018-01-31T17:36:50Z jjjjjj: new to lisp (from python), how to update this function? https://pastebin.com/cJVzSACd
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2018-01-31T17:37:32Z beach: jjjjjj: It worked before.
2018-01-31T17:38:11Z ebrasca: pjb: What do you mean with slideshows?
2018-01-31T17:38:15Z jjjjjj: beach: I want "qaqqq" to match the "a" in "apple" but it doesn't, not very good with lisp so not sure how to update the function...
2018-01-31T17:39:12Z jjjjjj: it should take each guess and iterate through all characters in word..
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2018-01-31T17:39:42Z beach: It seems you don't have a very good specification of what you want.  Where did you find this problem?
2018-01-31T17:40:20Z jjjjjj: beach: I made it up, I'm trying to learn lisp through small practice programs, hangman is a good starting point
2018-01-31T17:40:22Z pjb: ebrasca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Ley_QoBHo
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2018-01-31T17:42:07Z ebrasca: pjb: I thinkg you confused someone else with me.
2018-01-31T17:43:15Z pjb: jjjjjj: you have something in your cranial box.  It's called a brain.  You must start it up.  Don't be afraid, it won't break, it won't wear.  It'll be a little magical.  Once you brains start working, you'll be able to think, and even to program!
2018-01-31T17:43:57Z beach: jjjjjj: If you don't care about characters that don't match, then just iterate through every character in WORD.
2018-01-31T17:43:58Z pjb: jjjjjj: writing programs has nothing to do with lisp, just reasoning.
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2018-01-31T17:45:13Z beach: jjjjjj: Maybe if you describe what role you want the variables WORD and GUESS to have, then it might be easier to help.
2018-01-31T17:47:00Z jjjjjj: WORD - the word to be guessed, GUESS - a list of current guesses by the user
2018-01-31T17:47:26Z pjb: jjjjjj: a list or a set?
2018-01-31T17:47:29Z jjjjjj: i'm not familiar with basic lisp idioms..
2018-01-31T17:47:41Z pjb: jjjjjj: what if the users guesses twice #\a?
2018-01-31T17:47:48Z jjjjjj: a list of characters that the user has guessed are in the word
2018-01-31T17:48:11Z jjjjjj: pjb: well, a set, so duplicate guesses are ignored
2018-01-31T17:48:23Z pjb: jjjjjj: does it need to be a list, or can it be a vector or a string?
2018-01-31T17:48:36Z jjjjjj: pjb: whatever works..
2018-01-31T17:48:42Z paule32: hello
2018-01-31T17:49:05Z pjb: Ok.  Now the problem is that you're approaching from the wrong direction.
2018-01-31T17:49:08Z jjjjjj: pjb: I could do it easily in python but still don't know that much lisp..
2018-01-31T17:49:13Z paule32: how can i stop output on console in init mode - the time where the packages load
2018-01-31T17:49:56Z pjb: jjjjjj: You see, you asked about that the other day, from your specifications I gave you this function in your paste.  But you didn't understand it at all, since you are not able anymore than days ago, to modify to match your refined specifixations.
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2018-01-31T17:50:59Z pjb: jjjjjj: given a specification, we can imagine algorithms, and with the rich CL libraries, we can implement those algorithms in a concise and efficient way, but in a way, it's an opaque way.  If you don't know the same libraries, you cannot understand it.
2018-01-31T17:51:11Z paule32: pjb: don't worry, i read docs and found --quiet and --silent
2018-01-31T17:51:16Z paule32: but they don't work
2018-01-31T17:51:23Z AeroNotix: jjjjjj: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-01-31T17:51:30Z AeroNotix: read this and come back
2018-01-31T17:51:39Z pjb: jjjjjj: so my suggestion now would be to start learning Common Lisp, by reading a tutorial, learning about the data types provided by Common Lisp, and the library functions provided to manipulate those data types.
2018-01-31T17:52:05Z pjb: jjjjjj: then, when you will have that basis, we will be able to talk about algorithms and how to best implement them using those opreators.
2018-01-31T17:52:36Z jjjjjj: AeroNotix: thanks for the link
2018-01-31T17:52:37Z jjjjjj: pjb: ok thanks
2018-01-31T17:52:39Z pjb: paule32: compile, load and quickload have a :verbose (and sometimes a :print) key parameters.
2018-01-31T17:52:46Z Xach: That is a good introductory book, but you need not read the whole thing before you come back with more questions.
2018-01-31T17:53:00Z pjb: jjjjjj: cf. http:/cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2018-01-31T17:54:00Z jjjjjj: thx
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2018-01-31T17:54:40Z paule32: pjb: you cross over jjjjjj ?
2018-01-31T17:54:52Z pjb: jjjjjj: this is how I learned programming originally: I took the language reference manual, and for each new operator I learned, I wrote a little program to exercise it, to see how it worked.  Only after that, I started trying to implement my own programs (and games).
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2018-01-31T17:56:07Z jjjjjj: i don't know how much i can map my existing python knowledge to lisp, that could save time
2018-01-31T17:56:19Z Xach: jjjjjj: in general it will not.
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2018-01-31T18:00:29Z pjb: jjjjjj: python is quite alien to lisp. For example, it is strongly based on statements, while in lisp there are only expressions.
2018-01-31T18:01:01Z pjb: jjjjjj: python is a OO programming language, but OO is only one abstration tool in lisp, amongst many others.
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2018-01-31T18:03:07Z warweasle: pjb: I had to use python recently. It does some things well...but I can't get over the whitesapce as a delimiter.
2018-01-31T18:03:08Z jjjjjj: pjb: ok. but out of interest, how would you solve this problem in lisp: iterate each char in one string over another, returning matching chars or "-" as appropriate. I don't think I can solve it with my limited knowledge of lisp, but if I saw the solution I could learn from it..
2018-01-31T18:03:21Z warweasle: Also, we need to port blender from python to lisp.
2018-01-31T18:03:33Z pjb: jjjjjj: just as you said it in English!
2018-01-31T18:03:48Z Bike: jjjjjj: isn't that what you already did?
2018-01-31T18:04:05Z Bike: apple and qaqqq, no matches because a doesn't match q, p doesn't match a, etc.
2018-01-31T18:04:23Z jjjjjj: I mean, iterating each char over the whole of the other string. the last solution you gave me didn't do that.
2018-01-31T18:04:36Z jjjjjj: sry
2018-01-31T18:04:49Z Xach: jjjjjj: POSITION can tell you where an element occurs in a string.
2018-01-31T18:04:50Z Bike: so what would "aaa" and "aaa" return?
2018-01-31T18:05:19Z pjb: (let ((word "apple") (guesses "qa")) (loop for letter across word if (find letter guesses) collect letter else collect #\-)) #| --> (#\a #\- #\- #\- #\-) |#
2018-01-31T18:05:20Z jjjjjj: "aaa" and "aaa" -> "aaa", "apple" and "aqqq" -> "a----", "apple" and "qaqqq" -> "a----"
2018-01-31T18:05:36Z jjjjjj: pjb: thank you
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2018-01-31T18:06:22Z pjb: Don't thank me: LOOP is the most complex operator in CL: you've not learned anything.
2018-01-31T18:06:27Z pjb: I told you, go read a tutorial!
2018-01-31T18:06:57Z pjb: jjjjjj: also, start up your brains, it's still shut down.
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2018-01-31T18:56:13Z jmercouris: I'm trying to determine if a symbol points to a function, I tried typep, but a functions symbol is of course just a symbol
2018-01-31T18:57:00Z jmercouris: how can I determine that 'print is a funcallable thing
2018-01-31T18:57:18Z jmercouris: and that (defvar avocado "") 'avocado is not
2018-01-31T18:57:26Z White_Flame: (symbol-function sym) ?
2018-01-31T18:57:35Z White_Flame: of course, there are also LABELS and FLETs
2018-01-31T18:58:13Z jmercouris: Okay so that will throw a condition if not a function
2018-01-31T18:58:17Z jmercouris: interesting, that could work
2018-01-31T18:58:31Z jmercouris: or "raise" a condition, not sure what the correct nomenclature is
2018-01-31T18:59:28Z sjl: clhs funcall
2018-01-31T18:59:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
2018-01-31T18:59:30Z White_Flame: there's fdefinition, fboundp, and a few others, but I think they all "signal" a condition if it's not a function
2018-01-31T18:59:31Z sjl: > function---a function designator
2018-01-31T18:59:48Z sjl: the glossary for function designator describes what that is
2018-01-31T19:00:42Z sjl: I don't think there's a function-designator-p defined by the standard, you'll probably have to implement it yourself
2018-01-31T19:01:06Z jmercouris: seems pretty doable using symbol-function
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2018-01-31T19:01:18Z jmercouris: thank you both for your help
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2018-01-31T19:02:00Z White_Flame: actually, fboundp returns NIL and does not signal on defvars
2018-01-31T19:02:32Z White_Flame: hm, I guess fboundp does what you want; messed up testing it before
2018-01-31T19:03:22Z jmercouris: yes, it does
2018-01-31T19:03:23Z phoe: a function designator is one of the following: a function object, a symbol, or a list (SETF FOO) where FOO is a symbol.
2018-01-31T19:03:26Z jmercouris: nice
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2018-01-31T19:03:48Z jmercouris: my usage is really basic, it's part of a macro
2018-01-31T19:03:52Z phoe: I believe in the third one, despite the standard not menitioning it.
2018-01-31T19:04:16Z jmercouris: so, I don't have to worry about hitting any edge cases as it will only be my own code
2018-01-31T19:04:32Z White_Flame: from the spec:  fboundp is sometimes used to ``guard'' an access to the function cell, as in:  (if (fboundp x) (symbol-function x))
2018-01-31T19:04:42Z White_Flame: which smells like your use case
2018-01-31T19:05:09Z jmercouris: Yes, that is indeed perfect!
2018-01-31T19:05:16Z jmercouris: Thanks!
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2018-01-31T19:06:14Z sjl: phoe: not sure that last one is correct.  (funcall '(setf car) :foo (list 1 2 3)) fails in SBCL with:
2018-01-31T19:06:16Z sjl: The value (SETF CAR) is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL) when binding FUNCTION
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2018-01-31T19:07:21Z White_Flame: function name includes (setf ...), function designator does not
2018-01-31T19:07:29Z phoe: White_Flame: ooh
2018-01-31T19:07:29Z sjl: right
2018-01-31T19:07:31Z phoe: thanks.
2018-01-31T19:07:37Z phoe: nonetheless, it seems like an omission.
2018-01-31T19:08:23Z sjl: jmercouris: also might be worth checking what alexandria's ensure-function does
2018-01-31T19:08:31Z sjl: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/master/functions.lisp
2018-01-31T19:08:33Z White_Flame: phoe: I was unaware of the distinction until now as well
2018-01-31T19:10:05Z phoe: sjl: it isn't following the standard though.
2018-01-31T19:10:21Z phoe: function designator is not (or function function-name), it's (or function symbol).
2018-01-31T19:10:39Z phoe: but I can understand *why* it does it, to work around exactly this issue.
2018-01-31T19:10:39Z sjl: right
2018-01-31T19:11:39Z AeroNotix: is xelf usable or more of a toy?
2018-01-31T19:11:40Z sjl: I wouldn't say it's "not following the standard" because it's not claiming to be function-designator-p
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2018-01-31T19:11:51Z phoe: sjl: yes, I agree.
2018-01-31T19:11:57Z phoe: AeroNotix: #lispgames will tell you more methinks.
2018-01-31T19:12:03Z sjl: it's doing its own thing, and that happens to be something like jmercouris probably wants
2018-01-31T19:12:09Z phoe: yep.
2018-01-31T19:12:27Z phoe: I mean - it accepts an argument named FUNCTION-DESIGNATOR that does not have to be a function designator despite its name.
2018-01-31T19:12:36Z phoe: That's a protocol violation, strictly speaking.
2018-01-31T19:13:11Z sjl: ah, I didn't noticed the parameter name
2018-01-31T19:13:12Z phoe: Look at its docstring, too.
2018-01-31T19:13:13Z sjl: yeah that's odd
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2018-01-31T19:13:26Z phoe: It makes a logical distinction, it's either a function or a function *name*, not designator.
2018-01-31T19:13:53Z phoe: But I can perfectly see why it is like that, and I don't want to change that behaviour.
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2018-01-31T19:50:55Z jackdaniel: hey, anyone having ACL around? I'd appreciate trying to compile CLX (from develop branch) on it
2018-01-31T19:50:59Z jackdaniel: related issue: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/issues/48
2018-01-31T19:51:17Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/tree/develop (thanks!)
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2018-01-31T19:54:05Z shka: hello
2018-01-31T19:54:20Z phoe: hey
2018-01-31T19:54:39Z shka: is manually calling initialize-instance to reset state of object acceptable?
2018-01-31T19:54:51Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance
2018-01-31T19:54:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm
2018-01-31T19:55:14Z shka: phoe: would it shock you, if i already read it?
2018-01-31T19:55:41Z phoe: it wasn't exactly for you, it's for me and everyone else who wants to click it
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2018-01-31T19:56:42Z phoe: the standard says nothing if it's permitted and/or intended for programmers to explicitly call initialize-instance in client code.
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2018-01-31T19:57:06Z shka: i guess it is permitted
2018-01-31T19:57:18Z phoe: clhs 7.1
2018-01-31T19:57:18Z specbot: Object Creation and Initialization: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_a.htm
2018-01-31T19:57:19Z shka: or it should be at the very least
2018-01-31T19:57:39Z phoe: "The generic function shared-initialize implements the parts of initialization shared by these four situations: (...) when re-initializing an instance, (...)"
2018-01-31T19:57:45Z phoe: What does it mean, "re-initializing an instance"?
2018-01-31T19:57:54Z shka: phoe: after redefining
2018-01-31T19:58:14Z phoe: I see. So it still is not explicit calling by user code.
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2018-01-31T19:58:35Z shka: well, i've been programming in lisp for like 3 years now
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2018-01-31T19:58:39Z phoe: clhs 7.1.6 might provide some insight, let me look at it...
2018-01-31T19:58:42Z phoe: clhs 7.1.6
2018-01-31T19:58:43Z specbot: Initialize-Instance: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_af.htm
2018-01-31T19:58:46Z shka: didn't call initialize-instance explicitly once
2018-01-31T19:58:56Z phoe: shka: neither did I.
2018-01-31T19:59:11Z Xach: I would use reinitialize-instance instead.
2018-01-31T19:59:32Z Xach: and shared-initialize.
2018-01-31T19:59:36Z phoe: clhs reinitialize-instance
2018-01-31T19:59:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reinit.htm
2018-01-31T19:59:40Z shka: Xach: care to explain why?
2018-01-31T19:59:41Z phoe: "This generic function can be called by users. "
2018-01-31T19:59:47Z phoe: oh look, stated explicitly
2018-01-31T19:59:56Z Xach: shka: because that is its explicit purpose
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2018-01-31T20:00:09Z shka: but will it call initialize-instance?
2018-01-31T20:00:17Z phoe: it'll call shared-initialize
2018-01-31T20:00:17Z Xach: it will not. it will call shared-initialize.
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2018-01-31T20:00:23Z shka: meh
2018-01-31T20:00:34Z Xach: that is where to put things in objects that might be reinitialized.
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2018-01-31T20:00:50Z shka: ok, get me a second, i will refactor my code
2018-01-31T20:01:01Z Xach: No! There's no time!
2018-01-31T20:01:09Z phoe: omg!!!1
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2018-01-31T20:01:52Z shka: Xach: in that case, let me engage ludicrous speed!
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2018-01-31T20:02:19Z phoe takes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0 over to #lispcafe
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2018-01-31T20:07:49Z shka: Xach: done, thanks for help!
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2018-01-31T20:08:43Z Bike: reinitialize-instance might not "reset" an instance depending on what you mean by that, though. particularly it doesn't reinstall any initforms.
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2018-01-31T20:08:58Z didi: Idle thought: Isn't it interesting that #'format uses a control /string/ instead of a control /list/?
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2018-01-31T20:10:13Z Bike: well, consider like, ~{
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2018-01-31T20:10:58Z Bike: ~{~a ~} being (start-loop aesthetic " " end-loop) would be kind of weird. ((aesthetic " ")) or something, indicating the loop as part of the structure would make more sense
2018-01-31T20:11:14Z Bike: but then you might as well use actual control constructs and function calls and such
2018-01-31T20:11:28Z phoe: and #'format would be turing-complete
2018-01-31T20:11:31Z phoe: (finally)
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2018-01-31T20:14:43Z Xach: Bike: an argument for default-initargs?
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2018-01-31T20:15:22Z _death: didi: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html
2018-01-31T20:15:49Z didi: _death: Thanks, I will read it, tho I like #'format.
2018-01-31T20:15:58Z Bike: i'd never thought of that
2018-01-31T20:16:13Z Bike: i've never quite understood what default-initargs is for but there's one difference
2018-01-31T20:16:56Z jmercouris: Alright, so I'm working on a way to be able to pass something like '(print "lol") to (funcall)
2018-01-31T20:16:57Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/480ef407b60df935b6b3bf822dbe9262
2018-01-31T20:17:23Z jmercouris: I have a simple approach that is basically (funcall (first list-of-things) (rest list-of-things))
2018-01-31T20:17:30Z Shinmera: Bike: You can provide initargs for options that aren't slots.
2018-01-31T20:17:32Z jmercouris: where (list-of-things) is something like '(print "lol")
2018-01-31T20:17:49Z didi: jmercouris: (lambda () ...)
2018-01-31T20:17:58Z phoe: "~:[{~;[~]~:{~S~:[->~S~;~*~]~:^ ~}~:[~; ~]~{~S->~^ ~}~:[~; ~]~[~*~;->~S~;->~*~]~:[}~;]~]"
2018-01-31T20:18:01Z phoe: _death: what the fuck
2018-01-31T20:18:14Z didi: jmercouris: Thunk all the things you want to delay computation.
2018-01-31T20:18:27Z jmercouris: didi: What is thunking?
2018-01-31T20:18:47Z didi: jmercouris: lambda without arguments.
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2018-01-31T20:20:06Z jmercouris: didi: just to be completely clear about my objective- I want the user to be able to pass a function as they normally would with args like this: '(function any-number of arguments :including-keyword args) and then execute that call at a later time
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2018-01-31T20:20:44Z didi: jmercouris: Just ask the user to pass you a thunk.
2018-01-31T20:20:48Z jmercouris: didi: does that make sense? or is my explanation not so good? I am pretty tired at the time
2018-01-31T20:20:58Z jmercouris: that seems a burden on the user though
2018-01-31T20:21:02Z jmercouris: wrapping everything in a lambda
2018-01-31T20:21:03Z phoe: no, why?
2018-01-31T20:21:04Z Bike: Shinmera: i suppose that is also the case
2018-01-31T20:21:07Z phoe: jmercouris: I'
2018-01-31T20:21:25Z jmercouris: phoe: you what?
2018-01-31T20:21:25Z phoe: I'd rather pass the function object that I control rather than an arbitrary number of forms that you need to eval at runtime.
2018-01-31T20:21:36Z jmercouris: Ah
2018-01-31T20:22:02Z phoe: and no, it's not a burden. eval-at-runtime is pretty evil in Lisp anyway, and should be avoided wherever possible.
2018-01-31T20:22:11Z Bike: there's no eval, it's just funcall
2018-01-31T20:22:14Z phoe: if you want to accept user-defined code, accept function objects.
2018-01-31T20:22:24Z phoe: Bike: if he accepts Lisp forms, then it's eval at runtime.
2018-01-31T20:22:29Z jmercouris: Yeah, but then their args must be wrapped in a closure
2018-01-31T20:22:31Z phoe: if he accepts function objects, it's funcall
2018-01-31T20:22:41Z jmercouris: it's not a huge deal I guess, but it is a consideration
2018-01-31T20:22:46Z phoe: jmercouris: and?
2018-01-31T20:22:53Z jmercouris: I just don't like the syntax
2018-01-31T20:23:01Z jmercouris: It's a stupid reason really
2018-01-31T20:23:11Z Bike: okay i'm just looking at this here
2018-01-31T20:23:12Z jmercouris: so a thunk is just a lambda without arguments then?
2018-01-31T20:23:33Z phoe: either a lambda without arguments *OR* a lambda with specified arguments that you will pass to it.
2018-01-31T20:23:39Z Bike: i think this is a bit incoherent
2018-01-31T20:23:56Z jmercouris: Yeah, I would agree with that
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2018-01-31T20:24:07Z Bike: why can you not just do (push (lambda () (setf ,variable ,value)) *deferred-variables*)
2018-01-31T20:24:10Z phoe: like, if you want to execute user code that will do some things with object FOO, then you will want to accept functions like (lambda (foo) (user-code foo))
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2018-01-31T20:24:22Z Bike: (incidentally, that's a thunk right there. you already understand this concept, hooray)
2018-01-31T20:24:31Z jmercouris: Bike: ,value may be a function, that is why
2018-01-31T20:24:41Z jmercouris: and ,value must be evaluated to get the "value"
2018-01-31T20:24:42Z phoe: or you can go the around route and define *foo* as a dynavar, and expect your users to grab its value that way.
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2018-01-31T20:24:47Z Bike: no
2018-01-31T20:25:11Z phoe: this way, you can "work around" the issue with function arguments. you just hide them in dynamic variables, which is ugly in its own way.
2018-01-31T20:25:14Z Bike: say you have (deferredvar fishes-count (count-fishes :type "salmon")), which i believe was what you wanted your example to be
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2018-01-31T20:25:36Z Bike: this will macroexpand into (push (lambda () (setf fishes-count (count-fishes :type "salmon"))) *deferred-variables*)
2018-01-31T20:25:40Z jmercouris: Yeah, it was, but I changed it for simplicity half way, missed a few spots I guess :D
2018-01-31T20:25:46Z Bike: so, count-fishes won't actually be called until that thunk is called
2018-01-31T20:26:02Z jmercouris: ah shit, yes
2018-01-31T20:26:11Z jmercouris: that makes a lot of sense
2018-01-31T20:26:16Z Bike: the nature of the value form is totally irrelevant, you just wrap it in a thunk
2018-01-31T20:26:25Z shka: heh, good night all
2018-01-31T20:26:35Z jmercouris: I wasn't thinking straight, I was thinking of it as multiple values, but it is just a single list
2018-01-31T20:26:40Z jmercouris: which is just one value within the macro
2018-01-31T20:26:42Z Xach: Bike: graham crackers feller has a persuasive case for default initargs
2018-01-31T20:26:44Z Bike: it can take a bit to wrap your head around.
2018-01-31T20:26:44Z Xach: riesbeck
2018-01-31T20:26:52Z Bike: Xach: is it part of graham crackers?
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2018-01-31T20:27:10Z jmercouris: Bike: Thank you for your insight
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2018-01-31T20:27:23Z _death: I use :default-initargs to.. pass defaults for initargs :).. if a slot has no initarg, then I use :initform
2018-01-31T20:27:26Z Bike: no problemo
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2018-01-31T20:28:52Z Xach: Bike: no
2018-01-31T20:28:58Z Xach: maybe? hmm
2018-01-31T20:29:06Z Xach: can't remember. i linked to it some time ago
2018-01-31T20:29:29Z Xach: http://lisptips.com/post/11728375873/initform-and-default-initargs
2018-01-31T20:29:48Z Bike: that works, thank you
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2018-01-31T20:30:00Z Xach: wow, 2011
2018-01-31T20:30:04Z Xach: time flies like a banana
2018-01-31T20:30:45Z Bike: i wonder how often extra &key arguments to initialization functions are used, too
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2018-01-31T20:34:32Z Xach:    
2018-01-31T20:34:42Z Xach: Bike: i use 'em when needed
2018-01-31T20:35:08Z pjb: Bike: same answer as always: you have ~/quicklisp.
2018-01-31T20:35:52Z Bike: i found a probably longstanding if nontrivial to trigger bug in ecl about them the other day, but just due to reading source
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2018-01-31T20:45:48Z didi: _death: Cool article. Thank you.
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2018-01-31T20:48:51Z didi: I shall put this `out' macro with the series package for when I am courageous enough to incorporate them into my programs.
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2018-01-31T20:51:49Z _death: didi: I have my own out macro as well
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2018-01-31T20:52:36Z phoe: didi: is the code for that macro available anywhere?
2018-01-31T20:52:42Z phoe: if yes, is it on quicklisp yet?
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2018-01-31T20:53:08Z didi: phoe: I dunno. I just read about it.
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2018-01-31T20:56:53Z phoe: I see.
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2018-01-31T21:04:58Z jmercouris: Bike: Alright, so here is the really strange thing now
2018-01-31T21:05:08Z jmercouris: if I look at one of my deferred variables
2018-01-31T21:05:31Z jmercouris: *deferred-var* --> (function-call "arg1" "arg2")
2018-01-31T21:05:38Z jmercouris: I don't even see how that's possible
2018-01-31T21:06:13Z jasom: _death: implementing the out macro seems like it would require code walking?
2018-01-31T21:06:13Z jmercouris: Ah, nvm, I do see how it is possible, sorry for the interruption, I should probably just go to sleep
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2018-01-31T21:36:41Z _death: jasom: if you mean the one in ytools, it doesn't.. for my own, I use an old trick to pass context around
2018-01-31T21:37:43Z _death: phoe: it's available in ytools, which can be found in clocc
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2018-01-31T21:38:21Z _death: my own is in the constantia library
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2018-01-31T21:46:48Z crsc: hi
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2018-01-31T21:58:39Z phoe: hey crsc
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2018-01-31T22:11:43Z Xach: A new Quicklisp update is upon us this day! Hip hip hurrah!
2018-01-31T22:12:08Z phoe: omg!!!1
2018-01-31T22:12:19Z phoe: how many projects did you need to remove?
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2018-01-31T22:13:18Z pjb: with the new release of sbcl…
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2018-01-31T22:14:49Z _death: pjb: having spent the day in {}, I recalled your (old?) signature..
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2018-01-31T22:17:38Z Xach: phoe: not too many
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2018-01-31T22:19:45Z phoe: Xach: good.
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2018-01-31T22:20:35Z Xof: *phew*
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2018-01-31T22:21:03Z Xof: Xach: the slippery-chicken repo owner (Daniel Ross) is a colleague of mine
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2018-01-31T22:21:34Z Xof: in one of those Small World kind of things.  "What do you do?"  "Oh, really, what lisp do you use?"  "Oh, really, do you want to know something funny?"
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2018-01-31T22:22:19Z Xach: Xof: nice! i was surprised/not surprised to see how old the project is
2018-01-31T22:22:39Z Xach: Lisp music software seems to exist in its own world (much like every other piece of the lisp world)
2018-01-31T22:22:54Z Xof: yeah, I'd never heard of it before a year or so ago either
2018-01-31T22:22:57Z Xach: With a name like slippery chicken it should be more known!
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2018-01-31T22:58:13Z stylewarning: One exercise in Scheme is learning how to do macros that capture name. One such exercise is writing a macro with-degrees (&body) which lexically captures sin/cos/tan and defines them as functions of degrees. In Common Lisp, you can't lexically shadow symbols in the CL package.
2018-01-31T22:58:43Z stylewarning: Nonetheless, I'm curious how someone might actually solve this. Code walk and replace? Does anyone have a simple example of how to do it with current libraries?
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2018-01-31T23:06:21Z p_l: I'd love a "trivial-codewalker" that would just hook into compiler innards of the implementation in layerable way :<
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2018-01-31T23:09:30Z scymtym: p_l: https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/blob/wip-walk-forms-new-marco-stuff/examples/code-walking-example-without-clos.lisp
2018-01-31T23:09:59Z Shinmera: p_l: I thought that's what macroexpand-dammit! was trying to be, sort of.
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2018-01-31T23:26:57Z jasom: stylewarning: just shadow the symbols in your current package, and set their fdefinition to be the CL: equivalent
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2018-01-31T23:27:46Z stylewarning: jasom: of course you can do that; the idea of the exercise was to just provide a small convenience without extra packages and the like
2018-01-31T23:28:03Z stylewarning: and of course it's not possible, with a macro, to change the package over the lexical scope of the macro
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2018-01-31T23:28:54Z jasom: stylewarning: short of walking the entire tree and replacing the symbols, I can't think of a way.  If it were easy that would violate a core part of lisp's macro hygiene
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2018-01-31T23:29:22Z stylewarning: jasom: Sometimes I do wish it were possible to selectively turn that stuff off.
2018-01-31T23:29:42Z jasom: stylewarning: sbcl lets you disable package locks, so you can on at least one specific implementation
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2018-01-31T23:30:49Z stylewarning: jasom: I guess I meant it would be nice to selectively turn it off
2018-01-31T23:31:04Z stylewarning: to e.g. write a macro like WITH-DEGREES
2018-01-31T23:31:12Z jasom: stylewarning: you can disable it for the lexical scope of a declaration
2018-01-31T23:31:33Z stylewarning: oh, that I didn't know
2018-01-31T23:31:56Z stylewarning: Lexical or dynamic scope?
2018-01-31T23:32:07Z jasom: stylewarning: there is one of each
2018-01-31T23:32:17Z stylewarning: How do I do that
2018-01-31T23:32:24Z jasom: declaration enable/disable-package-locks is lexical
2018-01-31T23:32:43Z jasom: macro with-unlocked-packages is dynamic
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2018-01-31T23:33:23Z stylewarning: jasom: I didn't know about that. Awesome!
2018-01-31T23:33:25Z jasom: (locally (declare (sb-ext:disable-package-locks sin cos tan)) ...)
2018-01-31T23:34:17Z stylewarning: jasom: I need to learn more about these neat features of SBCL. I usually scan the manual every so often, but I guess I missed/forgot this.
2018-01-31T23:36:39Z scymtym: stylewarning: speaking of which: we just made the manual look a little nicer and documented the different kinds of timeouts in SBCL
2018-01-31T23:36:52Z stylewarning: scymtym: even better news! I'll check it out
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2018-01-31T23:45:39Z didi: scymtym: Please, keep the Info manual!
2018-01-31T23:49:36Z scymtym: didi: we just applied a different stylesheet to the HTML version. does that alleviate your concerns?
2018-01-31T23:51:19Z didi: scymtym: It does. Thank you.
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2018-01-31T23:56:53Z stylewarning: The most useful lisp implementation manual has been LispWorks' collection.
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