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2017-12-01T00:15:44Z Walex: Zhivago: in the discussion above you have referred to "cell". In Common Lisp that is a "slot", which maps pretty closely to the C notion of 'l-value' (and indeed it is as a rule implemented as an 'l-value'). The "value" slot of a symbol, or the "CAR" and "CDR" slots of "CONS" values, are all "slots", that is have the same semantics as l-values, or "anonymous variables". Because of legacy reasons the relevant sections of CLHS are written with poor terminology an
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2017-12-01T00:55:14Z aeth: Walex: your line cut off after "poor terminology an"
2017-12-01T00:55:33Z Zhivago: Walex: Sorry -- did you ever get around to the bit which has a point to it?
2017-12-01T00:55:38Z aeth: (it's a design flaw of IRC to (1) cut off at an arbitrary point that depends on your nick and the IRC server and (2) not provide any way of knowing that it cut off)
2017-12-01T00:56:21Z Zhivago: Also I didn't refer to "cell" -- you seem to be confused.
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2017-12-01T00:58:43Z aeth: You're correct that the terminology in CLHS is odd at points. That's not particularly specific to CL, though. Every language has its own, incompatible terminology quirks and it's easy to say the wrong thing if you talk about it to a different language community. Even Scheme uses different words for almost identical concepts as CL (and Scheme is as close as you're going to CL in mainstream languages except elisp)
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2017-12-01T00:59:34Z Zhivago: Is that Walex's point -- that the terminology is odd?
2017-12-01T00:59:40Z aeth: What's a "list"? A "vector"? An "array"? A "string"? etc. Depends on the language.
2017-12-01T00:59:49Z aeth: Zhivago: I think Walex's point is that CL's terminology is incorrect and dated.
2017-12-01T01:01:16Z Zhivago: I don't know -- he was going on in some confused fashion about variable bindings earlier.
2017-12-01T01:01:28Z Zhivago: I'm not sure that he's caught up to lexical bindings yet.
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2017-12-01T02:54:43Z internet1cafe: hi
2017-12-01T02:57:49Z loke: Hello
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2017-12-01T04:17:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-01T04:20:18Z loke: Hello Beach!
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2017-12-01T08:08:33Z hajovonta: hello beach!
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2017-12-01T08:53:13Z phoe: morning everyone
2017-12-01T08:53:51Z drdo: morning
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2017-12-01T09:30:53Z hajovonta: hi phoe
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2017-12-01T09:32:22Z resttime: Is it possible to connect to a lisp REPL on a device where you can only talk with it via a serial connection?
2017-12-01T09:33:25Z loke: resttime: Yes.
2017-12-01T09:33:38Z loke: resttime: You have to simply tunnel somehow.
2017-12-01T09:33:47Z loke: You could, for example set up PPP
2017-12-01T09:34:03Z loke: I'm sure there are way of tunneling a serial connection over TCP as well
2017-12-01T09:34:29Z loke: And by "tunnel". I mean "expose"
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2017-12-01T09:40:23Z resttime: Hmmm, I guess to double check: Suupose there's an embedded ARM system like raspberry pi but can only have a single serial connection to communicate to it with something like 'screen /dev/ttyUSB0' (not SSH). THere is a way to connect on a computer with SLIME to the swank server that a lisp is running on this device?
2017-12-01T09:41:44Z resttime: Never done something like this except SSH tunneling, so I suppose this is fairly new to me.
2017-12-01T09:43:21Z phoe: resttime: tunnel SSH, that'll be the easiest.
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2017-12-01T09:44:50Z resttime: phoe: I don't think the device has that capability which is why I'm kinda stuck
2017-12-01T09:45:12Z resttime: Errr, for the device I'm thinking about doing this with that is
2017-12-01T09:45:32Z loke: Extending SLIME to support communication over serial should be trivial.
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2017-12-01T09:50:54Z jdz: There are "protocols" to multiplex a serial line, for instance XMODEM for file transfer.
2017-12-01T09:52:44Z resttime: Hmmm, I'm probably going to have a lot of research to do. Completely new stuff to me.
2017-12-01T09:53:41Z jdz: Yes, I just finished reading "UNIX-HATERS Handbook", which states that the stuff from 1980ies should still work today.
2017-12-01T09:54:05Z loke: jdz: It does, if you use Unix :-)
2017-12-01T09:54:57Z resttime: I was hoping there would be some kind of simple way to just do "SSH tunneling port but with a serial connection"
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2017-12-01T09:55:05Z jdz: I've had to poke around with stty and whatnot on OSX to get some stuff working, and I did manage to get it working, so I bet the stuff still works.
2017-12-01T09:56:22Z resttime: I suppose topics I should be looking into then is PPP and multiplexing protocols
2017-12-01T09:56:48Z jdz: And terminal emulation (welcome to the world of hurt!).
2017-12-01T09:57:02Z jdz: Maybe s/terminal/console.
2017-12-01T09:57:47Z Zhivago: Linux tun/tap should be easy to run over serial.
2017-12-01T09:58:53Z resttime: Yeah, it's that 'screen /dev/ttyUSB0' can drop me into a busybox shell on the device and I was wondering if I could do the stuff I would do if I used like SSH on tunneling the swank server port
2017-12-01T10:00:14Z Zhivago: Well, you could if you ran a network over that serial line.
2017-12-01T10:00:40Z Zhivago: Otherwise you might need to think about it more.
2017-12-01T10:01:11Z d4ryus: Are you able to start a swank instance listening on a local port? or is there no network at all?
2017-12-01T10:01:46Z phoe: d4ryus: if he had network, he wouldn't need to use serial I guess.
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2017-12-01T10:03:55Z d4ryus: i had a broken ethernet on my pi and no wifi available. But i was able to start swank and then tunnel stuff via usb terminal and netcat. Was quite a hack yes, but it worked
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2017-12-01T10:07:07Z resttime: Hmmmm, that's reassuring to know. I suppose I will also try and explore whether it's possible to enable networking. I've so far assumed it wasn't because connections with the device have been only serial with the screen utility and I would imagine people would want to switch to something better if they could (hence conclusion that couldn't)
2017-12-01T10:07:51Z resttime: Like I remember someone mentioning using zmodem to get files from the device.
2017-12-01T10:08:02Z resttime: Then they found out that screen could do it too
2017-12-01T10:10:53Z resttime: This unix connections stuff is so far kinda an anomaly to me
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2017-12-01T12:10:02Z Xach kermit
2017-12-01T12:12:26Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-12-01T12:12:37Z phoe: XachX: are you a muppet now
2017-12-01T12:13:04Z Xach: was just thinking of serial interfaces
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2017-12-01T13:57:07Z rumbler31: Xach: have you seen hoppi?
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2017-12-01T14:14:16Z Xach: rumbler31: what's hoppi?
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2017-12-01T14:40:33Z dwts: hey guys, has anyone used lisp for generating code in other languages? I believe I've read this is not that uncommon for lisp. I was thiking about writing lisp code to generate terraform code for me
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2017-12-01T14:42:04Z nyef`: dwts: Umm... You realize that any native-code lisp compiler fits that definition, right?
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2017-12-01T14:43:04Z dwts: nyef`: native as in machine code? I'm interested in generating terraform code which is more like json
2017-12-01T14:43:07Z Zhivago: There is nothing particularly special about lisp for that task in either direction.
2017-12-01T14:43:25Z Zhivago: nyef's point is that what you are describing is a compiler, of which there are many written in lisp.
2017-12-01T14:43:34Z dwts: oh
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2017-12-01T14:44:07Z dwts: maybe transpiler is more correct? but now I see nyef`'s point
2017-12-01T14:44:14Z nyef`: Another example would be from the "XP" paper, where they abuse the lisp pretty-printer to produce Pascal syntax.
2017-12-01T14:44:36Z dwts: hm, let me search that
2017-12-01T14:44:46Z Bike: json isn't really a programming language, though?
2017-12-01T14:45:00Z beach: I am pretty sure it's a common technique.
2017-12-01T14:45:08Z dwts: yes, but it could still be treated like code
2017-12-01T14:45:10Z nyef`: No, JSON is a serialized data format. But it's also a subset of JavaScript.
2017-12-01T14:45:33Z nyef`: ... ECMAScript? HotWired? Something like that.
2017-12-01T14:46:04Z dwts: nyef`: this one? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242313131_Using_the_new_common_Lisp_pretty_printer
2017-12-01T14:46:18Z Bike: dunno what you mean by "treated like code". just saying that writing out data structures can be a little easier.
2017-12-01T14:46:30Z nyef`: (ECzeMAScript?)
2017-12-01T14:46:37Z Bike: data is code, but people deal with "data" more, so they give it better formats
2017-12-01T14:47:06Z nyef`: dwts: I don't know, I get a "service temporarily unavailable" from that link.
2017-12-01T14:47:21Z dwts: Bike: well I want to use lisp to generate some tfvar files. then these files can be executed by terraform
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2017-12-01T14:47:35Z Bike: i'm sure it's doable
2017-12-01T14:47:45Z dwts: nyef`: yeah, The site is temporarily down while we do some maintenance. It will be back up shortly.
2017-12-01T14:47:52Z dwts: that's what I get atm
2017-12-01T14:47:58Z dwts: Bike: understood
2017-12-01T14:48:24Z Bike: i don't see an actual syntax description, but https://www.terraform.io/intro/getting-started/variables.html looks simple enough
2017-12-01T14:50:12Z Zhivago: Transpilers are just compilers.
2017-12-01T14:50:21Z dwts: yeah, I just want to automate some processes, I don't want to copy/paste then edit files every time I'm creating a new instance.
2017-12-01T14:51:15Z dwts: Zhivago: sure, I just got the impression that when compilers mentioned earlier machine code was implied
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2017-12-01T14:52:33Z Bike: sometimes it is, but drawing distinctions like that becomes untenable pretty fast
2017-12-01T14:53:01Z Zhivago: Machine code is often not machine code.
2017-12-01T14:53:24Z Zhivago: Or, conversely, what is the code that a javascript machine runs?
2017-12-01T14:53:30Z Bike: in any case this is a configuration file format. doesn't look like it has any control flow. easy
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2017-12-01T14:54:14Z dwts: roger, thank you guys
2017-12-01T14:54:28Z Bike: https://www.terraform.io/docs/configuration/syntax.html oh, there's the syntax.
2017-12-01T14:54:42Z Bike: and it accepts json too. So you could skip work and use one of the existing json output dealies.
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2017-12-01T14:55:34Z dwts: yes it does accept json too but I prefer tf syntax
2017-12-01T14:56:11Z Zhivago: So that you can take advantage of its string interpolation? :)
2017-12-01T14:56:35Z dwts: lol
2017-12-01T14:56:37Z Zhivago: If you're generating it as output you might as well make it the simplest and stupidest format available with the best library support.
2017-12-01T14:56:59Z Zhivago: Machine generated code trying to be clever is a recipe for excitement.
2017-12-01T14:57:38Z Zhivago: Particularly coupled with what is probably a buggy parser that isn't used by a zillion people.
2017-12-01T14:57:46Z dwts: I was planning to feed it us input after generating it to the terraform tool to create me some ec2 instances
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2017-12-01T14:59:01Z dwts: Zhivago: it's open source, so you can go bug hunting if you are interested: https://github.com/hashicorp/terraform , although you don't sound very excited about it :P
2017-12-01T15:00:20Z Zhivago: I would rather stab myself in the face with a fish-fork.
2017-12-01T15:01:08Z Bike: What's the difference between a fish fork and a regular proletarian fork? Longer middle tine?
2017-12-01T15:01:14Z Bike: er... antitine.
2017-12-01T15:01:29Z dwts: Zhivago: your nickname is familiar, i think I've seen your nick in C related irc channels in the past. You'd rather stab yourself because of go or because you disklike that specific tool? :P
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2017-12-01T15:02:01Z dwts: why proletarian though? :P
2017-12-01T15:02:20Z Zhivago: Than go bug hunting in yet another random configuration language implementation by some well intentioned people.
2017-12-01T15:02:27Z Bike: "Fish forks (and knives) often have an incurve shaped form (pictured); we believe this feature was simply to differentiate it from all the other forks that could be present on the table, as potentially there could be a considerable amount." nice
2017-12-01T15:02:36Z Zhivago: The fish-fork, ... yes.
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2017-12-01T15:03:02Z Zhivago: Although I understand that the incision is to accommodate the spine of the fish.
2017-12-01T15:03:24Z dwts: Zhivago: you sound disappointed, are you preparing me for the worse? :p
2017-12-01T15:04:45Z Zhivago: https://www.pinterest.co.kr/pin/110690103311307799/
2017-12-01T15:04:53Z Zhivago: Disappointed in what?
2017-12-01T15:05:19Z dwts: in configuration language implementations?
2017-12-01T15:05:53Z Zhivago: Oh, not at all -- I am looking forward to hearing your tale of woe at some point so that I can then refer back to the logs and tell you that I told you so.
2017-12-01T15:06:28Z dwts: lol
2017-12-01T15:08:25Z dwts: Zhivago: to be honest i've had some bad experiences with puppet :P
2017-12-01T15:08:43Z dwts: and soon I'll have to start learning chef
2017-12-01T15:08:47Z dwts: so yeah, keep the logs
2017-12-01T15:09:02Z Zhivago: I'm looking forward to when they start naming them after serial killers.
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2017-12-01T15:10:04Z nyef`: Or the origin of the phrase "going postal"?
2017-12-01T15:11:00Z Younder: that postal worker from NY
2017-12-01T15:11:19Z Younder: mad max
2017-12-01T15:11:21Z Zhivago: Should probably have been "going NYC".
2017-12-01T15:11:59Z Younder: Currently it seems only movies are qualified ;)
2017-12-01T15:12:01Z Zhivago: Although if you do visit NYC, I recommend rowing on the Hudson river.
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2017-12-01T15:14:02Z Younder: Xach love it when I introduce this as a channel for the vocally impaired
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2017-12-01T15:15:14Z nyef`: Younder: Wikipedia's list of postal killings doesn't include a single incident in NYC.
2017-12-01T15:15:28Z nyef`: Or NY at all.
2017-12-01T15:15:33Z nyef`: A couple in NJ, though.
2017-12-01T15:16:27Z dwts: Zhivago: lol, I don't like the idea
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2017-12-01T16:45:14Z _rumbler31: Xach: https://bitbucket.org/cloudycat/hoppi
2017-12-01T16:45:29Z _rumbler31: application for talking over serial/usb connections from lisp to a calculator
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2017-12-01T16:50:45Z Younder: I use kermit to connect to my old HP50p
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2017-12-01T16:58:36Z Younder: _rumbler31, if you are using kermit anyhow why not writer script in kermit. I don't see the need for Lisp.
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2017-12-01T16:59:56Z johnnybanana: Hello could someone help me with a lisp problem?
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2017-12-01T17:00:32Z Younder: Depends on the problem I guess,
2017-12-01T17:00:54Z Younder: perhaps you should just state it
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2017-12-01T17:01:49Z johnnybanana: so i am trying to define a macro
2017-12-01T17:02:07Z _rumbler31: Younder: I didn't make it, and I referenced it both for looking into the cocoa apis for enumerating connected serial/usb devices, as well as using them to communicate with them from lisp in my own work, not necessarily using kermit
2017-12-01T17:02:46Z johnnybanana: that will take any number of expressions and have each be evaluated and printed in order, using the "=>" format, with semicolons separating pairs
2017-12-01T17:03:13Z Younder: so a PAIP style lang?
2017-12-01T17:03:19Z johnnybanana: (let ((x 3) (y 2)) (macro-call (+ x y) x y)) (+ X Y) => 5;X => 3;Y => 2
2017-12-01T17:03:50Z Bike: Okay. How's it going.
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2017-12-01T17:04:14Z johnnybanana: this is what I have so far: (defmacro macro-call (expr)   `(format t "~&~S => ~S~%" ',expr ,expr))
2017-12-01T17:04:28Z johnnybanana: how to i make it for multiple expressions?
2017-12-01T17:04:34Z _rumbler31: format will let you do that!
2017-12-01T17:04:49Z Bike: it just means you need to output one of those for each expr.
2017-12-01T17:05:07Z johnnybanana: Im not sure how to incorporate the semicolons in the format
2017-12-01T17:05:09Z _rumbler31: you can give an argument that is a list, and a few control caracters will iterate through it and use the list as the source of each iteration
2017-12-01T17:05:28Z Bike: so (macro-calls x y) macroexpands into like (progn (macro-call x) (macro-call y))
2017-12-01T17:05:43Z Bike: or (progn (macro-call x) (write-string ";") (macro-call y)) if you want.
2017-12-01T17:06:12Z johnnybanana: _rumbler31: How could i implement that with format?
2017-12-01T17:06:18Z _rumbler31: looking it up now
2017-12-01T17:06:24Z johnnybanana: Bike: what does write-string do?
2017-12-01T17:06:39Z _rumbler31: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm
2017-12-01T17:06:40Z Bike: outputs a string
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2017-12-01T17:08:37Z _rumbler31: so (format nil "~{ => ; ~A ~}" (mapcar #'eval macro-body-arg))
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2017-12-01T17:10:13Z Bike: don't eval.
2017-12-01T17:10:24Z johnnybanana: what is eval for?
2017-12-01T17:10:35Z Bike: it evaluates forms. you should not use it here.
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2017-12-01T17:11:31Z _rumbler31: well how else do you get the output of each form
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2017-12-01T17:12:14Z johnnybanana: Bike: how could I improve my code?
2017-12-01T17:12:24Z johnnybanana: this is what i have
2017-12-01T17:12:25Z johnnybanana: (defmacro macro-call (@body args) `(format nil "~{ => ; ~A ~}" (mapcar #'eval ,@args)))
2017-12-01T17:12:41Z Bike: _rumbler31: expand into something, like they'd already wrote.
2017-12-01T17:13:15Z Bike: With their original definition, (macro-call x) => (format t "~&~s => ~s~%" 'x x) which works fine.
2017-12-01T17:13:38Z Bike: there's no need to use eval. you don't want to use eval, both for general style reasons, and because it makes the original example impossible since eval doesn't know about lexical bindings.
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2017-12-01T17:15:03Z _rumbler31: Bike: oh, its a macro, so the forms get
2017-12-01T17:15:22Z _rumbler31: put back, and evalutated like normal
2017-12-01T17:15:27Z Bike: yes.
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2017-12-01T17:15:56Z Bike: johnnybanana: what you can do is just expand into several format calls like the one you already had. one for each form. no need for fancier format strings, and definitely no need to loop at runtime
2017-12-01T17:16:23Z johnnybanana: how will I know how many format calls to have though
2017-12-01T17:17:45Z Bike: you have one for each argument to the macro, of course.
2017-12-01T17:18:01Z Bike: (defmacro macro-calls (&rest forms) ...you can just do (length forms) here.
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2017-12-01T17:18:16Z Bike: (but it might be more natural to use mapcar etc)
2017-12-01T17:19:07Z _rumbler31: I"ll totally concede that use of format iteration is "cute" for this use
2017-12-01T17:19:18Z johnnybanana: Hm let me try that out
2017-12-01T17:21:44Z johnnybanana: So this is what I have (defmacro macro-call (&rest form)   `(mapcar #'(format t "~&~S => ~S~%" ',form ,form) ,@form))
2017-12-01T17:21:58Z johnnybanana: Im trying to test with this (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (macro-call (+ x y) x y))
2017-12-01T17:22:15Z johnnybanana: in the hopes of this being printed "(+ X Y) => 3;X => 1;Y => 2"
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2017-12-01T17:24:45Z Bike: No
2017-12-01T17:24:51Z Bike: Do not expand into mapcar
2017-12-01T17:25:04Z Bike: that doesn't even make sense, what is #'(format
2017-12-01T17:25:21Z Bike: I already gave you an example of what your expansion could look like, try aiming for that
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2017-12-01T17:29:06Z _rumbler31: oh I see
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2017-12-01T17:30:00Z _rumbler31: at runtime he wants to emit "=>" so the inner body will look like (write-string " => ; ") (form1) ...
2017-12-01T17:30:13Z johnnybanana: _rumbler31: any thoughts?
2017-12-01T17:30:20Z _rumbler31: bike is smarter than me
2017-12-01T17:30:23Z _rumbler31: so listen to him
2017-12-01T17:32:10Z warweasle: _rumbler31: To be fair, Bike is smarter than a lot of people.
2017-12-01T17:32:36Z warweasle: But that's just because he's a lisper. :P
2017-12-01T17:32:56Z Zhivago: What actual problem is johnny trying to solve?
2017-12-01T17:35:11Z beach: I am guessing a "homework problem".
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2017-12-01T17:45:31Z phoe: Is there a simple way to use drakma to download files into a directory, like wget?
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2017-12-01T17:45:57Z phoe: Because I just realized that I'm about to reinvent wget with my custom code, and that doesn't sound good.
2017-12-01T17:47:27Z warweasle: I had to alias wgit to wget...because git.
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2017-12-01T17:52:29Z eudoxia: phoe: https://github.com/eudoxia0/trivial-download
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2017-12-01T17:56:27Z phoe: eudoxia: thanks.
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2017-12-01T17:56:33Z phoe: That's what I needed.
2017-12-01T18:00:43Z bansheee: Could someone help me with a problem I am stuck on?
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2017-12-01T18:01:41Z Bike: Sure, describe it.
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2017-12-01T18:09:43Z bansheee: Could someone help me with a problem I am stuck on?
2017-12-01T18:10:22Z pjb: Not if no don't tell us more about your problem.
2017-12-01T18:10:30Z pjb: s/\<no\>/you/
2017-12-01T18:10:43Z _death: the problem of asking if someone could help him with a problem he's stuck on
2017-12-01T18:12:39Z phoe: I need a MULTIPLE-VALUE-MAPCAR
2017-12-01T18:13:14Z _death: like (m-v-c #'mapcar ...) ?
2017-12-01T18:13:20Z warweasle: phoe: Like a destructing-bind?
2017-12-01T18:13:23Z SaganMan: when you're in irc, it's general rule to not ask if someone can help.
2017-12-01T18:15:45Z nirved: what would multiple-value-mapcar return? collecting the values as well?
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2017-12-01T18:16:38Z phoe: warweasle: https://pastebin.com/v74zRzqP
2017-12-01T18:17:00Z phoe: yes, collecting the values, but collecting multiple values into multiple lists
2017-12-01T18:17:18Z SaganMan: multiple valued mapcar?
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2017-12-01T18:17:39Z phoe: SaganMan: yes, one that can operate on forms that return multiple values
2017-12-01T18:17:43Z oleo: what about mapcar 'list then ?
2017-12-01T18:17:53Z phoe: mapcar on gethash will only give you the first value.
2017-12-01T18:18:03Z phoe: oleo: what do you mean?
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2017-12-01T18:18:46Z oleo: (mapcar 'list '(a b c d))
2017-12-01T18:19:23Z Bike: if you can specify the number of values beforehand it shouldn't be hard.
2017-12-01T18:19:44Z warweasle: phoe: Oh, I see. That is a clever operation.
2017-12-01T18:19:45Z Bike: otherwise it would be kind of tricky to account for different calls returning different values and stuff.
2017-12-01T18:19:49Z SaganMan: won't the result of that be ((a)(b)(c)(d))?
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2017-12-01T18:21:54Z warweasle: phoe: (alexandria:MULTIPLE-VALUE-COMPOSE can do what you need.
2017-12-01T18:22:01Z phoe: Bike: wouldn't be too tricky. the multiple-value-mapcar would keep an internal counter of how many values were at most returned; every time this counter is bumped up, new dummy list(s) filled with NILs are returned.
2017-12-01T18:22:05Z phoe: warweasle: let me look.
2017-12-01T18:22:15Z nirved: if using it on hash table there's maphash
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2017-12-01T18:22:49Z phoe: oooh, that is nice.
2017-12-01T18:22:58Z phoe: nirved: gethash is just an example.
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2017-12-01T18:29:07Z Bike: well, i wrote it for one list
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2017-12-01T18:29:17Z Bike: nth returning nil instead of erring unexpectedly convenient
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2017-12-01T18:30:58Z skrtskrt: I am currently working on a macro where it takes a list of variables and a body of code, and ensures that the variables revert to their original values after the body of code is evaluated
2017-12-01T18:31:37Z phoe: skrtskrt: what do you mean, revert?
2017-12-01T18:32:02Z phoe: do you mean that you store their values somewhere before the body of code, execute the code, and then set the variables to these stored values?
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2017-12-01T18:32:25Z skrtskrt: This is what I have so far
2017-12-01T18:32:25Z skrtskrt: https://pastebin.com/V7Njp5B6
2017-12-01T18:32:54Z phoe: skrtskrt: your indentation is off
2017-12-01T18:33:09Z skrtskrt: for example : (let ((x 'a)) (var-revert (x) x))   should end up with 'a
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2017-12-01T18:33:28Z skrtskrt: So the code is fine, but how can I minimize this to just one macro
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2017-12-01T18:33:47Z phoe: macrolet is the trivial solution
2017-12-01T18:33:52Z phoe: just make one macro local to the other
2017-12-01T18:36:02Z phoe: ...aw shit
2017-12-01T18:36:06Z phoe just killed his lisp with (defvar *foo* #1=(1 2 3 . #1#))
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2017-12-01T18:38:10Z Bike: might try putting a *print-length* definition in your rc
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2017-12-01T18:38:47Z phoe: it actually wasn't about printing methinks
2017-12-01T18:38:52Z phoe: because DEFVAR would print *FOO*
2017-12-01T18:39:10Z phoe: the backtrace shows that it went into a loop on #'LENGTH
2017-12-01T18:39:29Z phoe: ...why on earth would it call LENGTH?
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2017-12-01T18:40:36Z _death: you likely wanted to quote it
2017-12-01T18:40:37Z Bike: Oh, because you didn't quote it.
2017-12-01T18:40:43Z phoe: aw shit
2017-12-01T18:40:47Z phoe: you are correct
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2017-12-01T18:41:30Z phoe: now that is a function call with an infinite argument list
2017-12-01T18:42:39Z phoe: Bike: do you have your code anywhere nearby?
2017-12-01T18:42:56Z Bike: you mean the code I just wrote? i can paste it if you like.
2017-12-01T18:43:05Z phoe: since I just realized that a MULTIPLE-VALUE-MAP{CAR,CAN,LIST,CON} would be really handy.
2017-12-01T18:43:08Z phoe: Bike: yes.
2017-12-01T18:43:58Z Bike: http://sprunge.us/WEON
2017-12-01T18:46:08Z phoe: this feels like yak shaving
2017-12-01T18:46:12Z phoe: let's do it
2017-12-01T18:46:36Z Bike: (let ((hash (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash 'fuck hash) t (gethash 'shit hash) nil) (multiple-value-mapcar (rcurry #'gethash hash) '(fuck shit stack)) => (T NIL NIL), (T T NIL)
2017-12-01T18:48:01Z phoe: now we need to generalize it to an arbitrary number of arglists.
2017-12-01T18:48:40Z phoe: ...shouldn't be too hard, I think we only need to modify the first LET* binding
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2017-12-01T19:00:53Z phoe: well, this does become complex
2017-12-01T19:01:16Z phoe: we need a minimum length of all argument lists but maximum length of all multiple-value-lists
2017-12-01T19:01:30Z _death: I doubt the usefulness of these constructs..
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2017-12-01T19:02:32Z _death: better to just work on lists instead of pretending that you're dealing with multiple values..
2017-12-01T19:03:57Z phoe: I have a function that returns multiple values.
2017-12-01T19:04:05Z Bike: for the argument lists you can do (loop for l = lists then (mapcar #'cdr l) until (some #'endp l) collecting (multiple-value-list (apply function (mapcar #'first l))))
2017-12-01T19:04:07Z Bike: or something.
2017-12-01T19:04:18Z phoe: I want to mapcar this function over a sequence and not lose any data in the process.
2017-12-01T19:04:32Z _death: phoe: then use multiple-value-list to get a list of the values and work on this list
2017-12-01T19:05:19Z phoe: hm, for me this means destructuring-bind + multiple-value-list + some means of collecting the results.
2017-12-01T19:05:34Z phoe: also, multiple-value-list isn't a function. I cannot use it in mapcar.
2017-12-01T19:05:36Z _death: rather than back-and-forth translating between mechanisms
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2017-12-01T19:10:25Z phoe: ...I think I got it, just let me test real quick
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2017-12-01T19:11:03Z _rumbler31: johnnybanana: you figure it out?
2017-12-01T19:12:09Z phoe: https://p.teknik.io/1InTD
2017-12-01T19:12:59Z phoe: woah
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2017-12-01T19:24:03Z phoe: Bike: I allowed myself to blog it at https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/1604 - I hope you have nothing against it.
2017-12-01T19:24:25Z Bike: death of the author, bruh (this is EXACTLY what that phrase means)
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2017-12-01T19:26:34Z phoe: death of the author is one thing, but you wrote the code, you hold the copyright
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2017-12-01T19:29:10Z phoe: aaah, works just as it should. that was good yak shaving time - thanks, folks.
2017-12-01T19:32:46Z phoe: Another thing.
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2017-12-01T19:33:30Z phoe: How can I find a string that is the most #'STRING> of all the strings from a list?
2017-12-01T19:34:03Z phoe: ...wasn't I discussing such a function on #lisp about a year ago or something?
2017-12-01T19:34:13Z Bike: alexandria:extremum
2017-12-01T19:35:39Z phoe: Bike: perfect, thank you.
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2017-12-01T21:06:07Z KZiemian: Hello World
2017-12-01T21:06:42Z KZiemian: I have a question
2017-12-01T21:06:48Z shka: yes?
2017-12-01T21:06:49Z KZiemian: I need to learn some ccldoc
2017-12-01T21:06:57Z shka: phoe: ping
2017-12-01T21:07:09Z shka: phoe: KZiemian needs you
2017-12-01T21:07:10Z KZiemian: only place that I found to this moment ist this
2017-12-01T21:07:17Z KZiemian: https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc
2017-12-01T21:08:18Z KZiemian: shka: I try to find phoe from almost half a hauer
2017-12-01T21:08:27Z shka: KZiemian: sorry, i can't help with ccldoc myself
2017-12-01T21:08:39Z KZiemian: shka: no problem, in worst case
2017-12-01T21:08:39Z shka: i ended up writing my own documentation tool
2017-12-01T21:08:53Z KZiemian: shka: I will hunt phoe tomorow
2017-12-01T21:09:12Z KZiemian: shka: good for you :)
2017-12-01T21:09:26Z shka: heh not so sure about that!
2017-12-01T21:09:45Z KZiemian: personaly I don't know why we decided on ccldos
2017-12-01T21:09:48Z KZiemian: ccldoc
2017-12-01T21:10:02Z shka: well, options are somewhat lackluster
2017-12-01T21:10:05Z KZiemian: I was off for a month doing my part of job
2017-12-01T21:10:19Z KZiemian: I go back and order is to work in ccldoc
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2017-12-01T21:10:51Z shka: honestly, all existing documentation tools are suboptimal
2017-12-01T21:10:53Z KZiemian: shka: I don't know pros and cons, but better do anything than noting
2017-12-01T21:10:56Z shka: including my own
2017-12-01T21:11:06Z shka: ideally, i would rewrite it
2017-12-01T21:11:11Z shka: but no time for that
2017-12-01T21:11:27Z KZiemian: shka: this same is true with every my program
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2017-12-01T21:12:09Z KZiemian: shka: I have no idea about existing documenation tools
2017-12-01T21:12:22Z shka: well, to be fair even gnu cat get's updates so perhaps there is no such thing as perfect application
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2017-12-01T21:12:53Z KZiemian: shka: even if there suboptimal is better that put this project longer in the state of coma
2017-12-01T21:13:02Z shka: yup
2017-12-01T21:13:59Z shka: i will eventually try to build proper documentation tool
2017-12-01T21:14:16Z shka: i know more about the problem now!
2017-12-01T21:16:22Z KZiemian: thatnk you :)
2017-12-01T21:16:37Z Younder: KZiemian, arent you the guy I talked to on RUST
2017-12-01T21:17:21Z KZiemian: Younder: I only reamber talking about RUST few times
2017-12-01T21:17:36Z KZiemian: Younder: only face to face talks
2017-12-01T21:18:07Z KZiemian: Younder: at least I don't remeber any thing more then that
2017-12-01T21:18:39Z phoe: KZiemian: #ccl
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2017-12-01T21:18:56Z phoe: this channel might be more helpful since ccldoc is pretty ccl-specific
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2017-12-01T21:21:33Z KZiemian: phoe: I was there, but because was quiet I come here
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2017-12-01T21:23:32Z KZiemian: phoe: I need few tips
2017-12-01T21:24:45Z KZiemian: phoe: we talk today or in the future?
2017-12-01T21:24:59Z KZiemian: phoe: I send my question on Discord
2017-12-01T21:25:25Z KZiemian: phoe: I try to catch you on Discord or #ccl
2017-12-01T21:25:26Z KZiemian: ?
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2017-12-01T21:33:52Z KZiemian: I must go, it is to late here
2017-12-01T21:33:57Z KZiemian: say you
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2017-12-01T21:44:41Z Younder: rust is a quiet thing
2017-12-01T21:46:35Z Younder: try one of the noisy groups like Haskell, they should be right up your alley. You are a Haskell programmer you just don't know it yet
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2017-12-01T21:48:55Z Younder: If, like me, you love math
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2017-12-01T22:02:37Z whoman: haskell taught me math, or i learned math thru/with haskell
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2017-12-02T00:54:37Z Elronnd: I'm trying a to learn webdev with lisp.  I looked at a few frameworks, and what I found were clack and ningle, which seemed nice and simple.  But I have problems with both of them
2017-12-02T00:55:02Z Elronnd: with ningle, with this simple script, http://sprunge.us/aYTF, when I run it it says it worked and it's listening.  But it's definitely not listening
2017-12-02T00:55:38Z Elronnd: with clack, there's a minimal example that says to pass it a lambda taking an env.  But it doesn't tell you what things are in the 'env', so how tf do you get at the env?
2017-12-02T00:57:08Z resttime: Elronnd: I'm running your example and I get "HHHG" when I visit localhost:5000
2017-12-02T00:57:14Z resttime: What's the issue?
2017-12-02T00:57:56Z Elronnd: no idea
2017-12-02T00:57:58Z Elronnd: I get this https://files.catbox.moe/srjgnl.png
2017-12-02T00:58:05Z Elronnd: and nothing from a browser either
2017-12-02T00:58:46Z Bike: did the sbcl process terminate?
2017-12-02T00:58:55Z Elronnd: yes
2017-12-02T00:59:02Z Elronnd: I thought it intentionally forked to the background
2017-12-02T00:59:58Z _death: use --load instead of --script
2017-12-02T01:00:01Z resttime: For me: https://files.catbox.moe/6hfblv.png , maybe it's because you're running the file as a script?
2017-12-02T01:00:13Z Bike: yeah i don't think it forks to background.
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2017-12-02T01:00:34Z Elronnd: it's working now
2017-12-02T01:00:36Z Elronnd: thanks _death!
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2017-12-02T01:02:34Z Elronnd: how do you get the coloured repl?
2017-12-02T01:02:55Z resttime: I'm using SLIME on the emacs editor
2017-12-02T01:03:30Z Elronnd: ah
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2017-12-02T01:04:12Z resttime: Which I sure hope you're using it too for dev'ing lisp lol
2017-12-02T01:04:35Z resttime: Or SLIMV for VIM
2017-12-02T01:05:19Z _death: can try https://portacle.github.io/
2017-12-02T01:05:40Z Elronnd: resttime: yeah I'm using slimv+vim.  It's meh but it does the job
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2017-12-02T01:12:45Z jasom: Elronnd: If you have the time to get it setup, I strongly recommend emacs+slime+evil (evil is a vim compatibility package for emacs).
2017-12-02T01:13:25Z jasom: Elronnd: it's not urgent since slimv+vim "does the job" as you say, but slime is definitely less "meh" and more "wow"
2017-12-02T01:13:59Z Elronnd: ok
2017-12-02T01:14:10Z Elronnd: is there a guide to emacs somewhere?  Or should I just dive in?
2017-12-02T01:16:12Z resttime: The Paredit package would be a nice addition to check out as well if you're not too overwhelmed with new stuff. It helps with manipulating/balancing parenthesis.
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2017-12-02T01:18:18Z resttime: I'd say learn how to configure the emacs to manage packages, get the recommended ones, and then dive in.
2017-12-02T01:18:47Z resttime: So in VIM that would be like "Go get  pathogen and install ctrl-p" etc.
2017-12-02T01:19:01Z Elronnd: ok
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2017-12-02T01:33:09Z pierpa: when you launch emacs it display some useful informations, including pointers to tutorials
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2017-12-02T04:24:29Z ebrasca: Hi
2017-12-02T04:24:46Z ebrasca: I like to get help with:
2017-12-02T04:24:48Z ebrasca: open-network-stream: make client process failed: Connection refused, :name, sly-1, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005, :nowait, nil
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2017-12-02T04:45:08Z ebrasca: I have read http://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Connecting-to-a-remote-Lisp but I can't make sly to connect.
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2017-12-02T05:02:32Z jasom: Elronnd: https://jasom.github.io/clack-tutorial/pages/getting-started-with-clack/ please tell me any questions about clack not answered there so I can improve it (it's still a draft)
2017-12-02T05:03:16Z jasom: Elronnd: and it includes a link to the official docs for what env is: http://quickdocs.org/lack/#the-environment
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2017-12-02T05:28:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-02T10:04:09Z KZiemian: phoe: are on the other side?
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2017-12-02T10:42:14Z jackdaniel: join the dark side - we have cookies and free meals
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2017-12-02T12:12:12Z atlan: 13:11 *** NAMES @fe[nl]ix __main__ _death _krator44 _Trasformatore_ _whitelogger ``Erik aaronjensen abbe add^__ adulteratedjedi AeroNotix aeth aijony akash47 akr alandipert alexmlw alms_clozure alphor amer angavrilov angular_mike antismap AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh arbv Arcaelyx argoneus Aritheanie arrsim ArthurAGleckler[ asedeno askatasuna astronavt[m] atlan azrazalea banjiewen beach beaky benny billstclair bitch Bl
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2017-12-02T12:44:17Z phoe: is that a misconfigured IRC client, or just someone being a dick?
2017-12-02T12:45:38Z jackdaniel: looks like accidential paste. no need to call people (even hypothetically) dicks without a good reason
2017-12-02T12:48:55Z Younder: every has and is someones D&A
2017-12-02T12:50:01Z phoe: that's what I meant by a misconfigured IRC client, you're right.
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2017-12-02T12:50:41Z Younder: perhaps we should  just live with it. This society has become somewhat excessively polite. Next we will all be hypocritical liars.
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2017-12-02T12:53:45Z phoe: we are already beginning to become them
2017-12-02T12:56:23Z jackdaniel: speak for yourself ;)
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2017-12-02T13:07:12Z phoe: ;)
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2017-12-02T13:28:23Z phoe: How can I get a list of ALL subclasses of a given class, direct and indirect?
2017-12-02T13:28:55Z phoe: Other than repeatedly using CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES, that is.
2017-12-02T13:29:22Z Shinmera: Repeatedly using CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES.
2017-12-02T13:34:00Z phoe: Is there no utility function for this anywhere?
2017-12-02T13:35:26Z Shinmera: (defun class-subclasses (c) (let (r) (labels ((r (c) (unless (find c r) (push c r) (mapc #'r (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses c))))) (r c))))
2017-12-02T13:35:29Z Shinmera: Now there is
2017-12-02T13:35:42Z Shinmera: Err, if you return r at the end there.
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2017-12-02T13:37:58Z phoe: Thanks.
2017-12-02T13:38:05Z phoe: This *should* be in a utility library somewhere.
2017-12-02T13:38:33Z Shinmera: Most utility libraries don't want to pull in C2MOP.
2017-12-02T13:38:43Z phoe: Agreed.
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2017-12-02T13:49:28Z beach: chls pushnew
2017-12-02T13:49:34Z beach: clhs pushnew
2017-12-02T13:49:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pshnew.htm
2017-12-02T13:50:28Z Shinmera: beach: Was that meant for my snippet?
2017-12-02T13:50:34Z _death: phoe: there are utility libraries for the mop, like moptilities
2017-12-02T13:51:09Z beach: Shinmera: Yes.  Always use the most specific construct that will do the job.
2017-12-02T13:51:28Z Shinmera: beach: I specifically don't use pushnew because the unless also prevents re-traversing the subclasses if the class was already traversed.
2017-12-02T13:51:49Z beach: Ah, right, I see that now.  Funny what lack of indentation will do.
2017-12-02T13:51:54Z Shinmera: :)
2017-12-02T13:52:52Z beach: You should definitely do (let ((r '())) ...) though, rather than (let (r) ...).
2017-12-02T13:53:01Z Shinmera: Sure. I should also not use single-letter names.
2017-12-02T13:53:18Z beach: True, dat.
2017-12-02T13:53:19Z Shinmera: I wrote it as concisely as I could directly in IRC.
2017-12-02T13:53:42Z beach: I understand.  And I will now go back to more important stuff. :)
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2017-12-02T14:27:33Z osune: where do i find videos of the european lisp symposium from 2014 ?
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2017-12-02T14:29:43Z Shinmera: There probably aren't any.
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2017-12-02T14:37:18Z osune: bummer
2017-12-02T14:37:24Z phoe: _death: ooh, thanks.
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2017-12-02T15:38:25Z phoe: Can I put any kind of hook that will execute whenever a class is being defined via DEFCLASS?
2017-12-02T15:39:33Z Xach: phoe: I haven't done that much, but my first instinct is via a metaclass and the standard initialize-instance stuff on it.
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2017-12-02T15:49:49Z phoe: Xach: I mean, I want to execute code every time a DEFCLASS is issued.
2017-12-02T15:50:19Z Xach: phoe: Right. That is what I mean too.
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2017-12-02T15:50:39Z phoe: Hmmm. This means that my classes would need custom metaclasses.
2017-12-02T15:50:56Z Xach: Yes. I think that might be the only standardly way.
2017-12-02T15:51:59Z phoe: My problem is, I'm defining some protocol classes that are not meant to be instantiated. This class can be subclassed, both by other protocol classes and by concrete classes.
2017-12-02T15:53:05Z phoe: I want a programmatic way to get all concrete subclasses of a given protocol class. So, for example, if there's a protocol class A, a concrete class B that subclasses A, a protocol class C that subclasses A, and a concrete class D that subclasses C, (class-concrete-classes 'a) should return (B D).
2017-12-02T15:53:43Z pjb: you can get them using the MOP at runtime.
2017-12-02T15:54:03Z phoe: pjb: I don't know how to differentiate protocol classes from concrete classes.
2017-12-02T15:54:28Z pjb: You could use a different metaclass.
2017-12-02T15:54:41Z pjb: That could be useful to do some other things, if you need to differentiate them.
2017-12-02T15:54:57Z phoe: I have power over how I define protocol classes, so I can just enumerate them in some sort of list or hash table or whatever. But I have no power over redefining classes, so if the user defines class A as a concrete class, then my records are no longer valid.
2017-12-02T15:55:12Z pjb: Alternatively, protocol classes or concrete classes, or both, could inherit from a protocol or concrete abstract superclass.
2017-12-02T15:55:22Z phoe: pjb: I'm using Qtools which uses its own custom metaclass, already.
2017-12-02T15:55:39Z pjb: So, using a specific superclass for protocols.
2017-12-02T15:55:54Z phoe: pjb: this won't work, because each concrete class would be a subclass of a protocol class which would be a subclass of that specific superclass for protocols.
2017-12-02T15:56:05Z phoe: So each concrete class would be an indirect subclass of that specific protocol class.
2017-12-02T15:56:12Z phoe: Just like all protocol classes.
2017-12-02T15:56:51Z pjb: If you have control over defining protocol classes, then you can use a specific macro that will record them as such.
2017-12-02T15:56:54Z phoe: Like, I have a protocol class LOGGER, a concrete class STANDARD-LOGGER subclassing LOGGER, a protocol class FANCY-LOGGER subclassing LOGGER, a concrete class STANDARD-FANCY-LOGGER subclassing FANCY-LOGGER.
2017-12-02T15:56:57Z pjb: (in addition to expand to a defclass).
2017-12-02T15:57:07Z phoe: Yes, I have already said, I have control over recording them.
2017-12-02T15:57:18Z phoe: I have no control over the user removing or redefining them.
2017-12-02T15:58:58Z phoe: So I wish I had some standard means of introducing global hooks whenever a class is (re)defined.
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2017-12-02T15:59:07Z Shinmera: Provide a facility to define your protocol classes that maintains the state, rather than letting them use just defclass.
2017-12-02T15:59:18Z Shinmera: so a wrapper around defclass.
2017-12-02T15:59:23Z Shinmera: and then: document and trust
2017-12-02T15:59:30Z phoe: Hah, so what I'm already doing.
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2017-12-02T15:59:38Z phoe: Fine.
2017-12-02T15:59:51Z pjb: phoe: McCLIM does this by providing its own defclass macro.
2017-12-02T16:00:14Z Shinmera: Generally if you tell your users how to do something, they won't go against you unless they already have good reason to, or are somehow oblivious. In the latter case you did not document well enough
2017-12-02T16:00:37Z Shinmera: And in the former case there's no reason to struggle anyway because they will do what they want no matter.
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2017-12-02T16:02:28Z pjb: phoe: then I would say, you should think about what makes a protocol class vs. a concrete class, if the user can redefine them.
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2017-12-02T16:03:15Z pjb: phoe: also when it's done.  Granted, one can define or redefine classes at run-time, but defclass is a macro, so clearly, creating classes at run-time is rather a rare occurence (changing classes may be more frequent).
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2017-12-02T16:03:43Z pjb: phoe: so perhaps you want a pair of run-time functions: register-protocol-class unregister-protocol-class
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2017-12-02T16:18:29Z phoe: I think so, yes.
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2017-12-02T17:09:54Z borodust: hi Xach, do you have a couple of moments for quick debug session?
2017-12-02T17:10:04Z borodust: hello #lisp
2017-12-02T17:10:09Z Josh_2: Evening borodust
2017-12-02T17:10:11Z Xach: borodust: Sure!
2017-12-02T17:10:13Z Xach: I can try stuff
2017-12-02T17:10:23Z borodust: i'll pm you
2017-12-02T17:10:26Z Xach: Ok
2017-12-02T17:12:14Z Xach waits patiently
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2017-12-02T17:14:15Z borodust: forgot how to open a query buffer for a moment ;p
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2017-12-02T17:25:14Z Elronnd: jasom: neat, bookmarked, thanks!
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2017-12-02T17:47:14Z SaganMan: Good Morning peeps
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2017-12-02T17:52:22Z atlan: Hi, I'm having trouble with quickload trying to find something from sbcl 1.4.1 when I've got 1.4.2 locally. Could I tell it to look in a different dir? I'm running brewed sbcl on macos sierra
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2017-12-02T17:58:54Z didi: Does SERIES have a maintainer?
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2017-12-02T19:20:17Z phoe: quicklisp fetches it from sourceforce, where it has not been updated since 2010
2017-12-02T19:21:09Z didi: phoe: I see. There is https://github.com/tokenrove/series with some commits after 2010.
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2017-12-02T19:21:31Z didi: s/some/a few
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2017-12-02T19:34:55Z phoe: didi: you could contact the author of this fork and perhaps open a quicklisp-projects issue for changing the mirror.
2017-12-02T19:35:46Z didi: phoe: Thanks, but I don't think I have enough information to open such issue.
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2017-12-02T20:28:28Z phoe: didi: then just open it and let it stay open. Perhaps someone else will be able to pick it up.
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2017-12-02T21:36:10Z whoman: hmm, slots are not setf places ?
2017-12-02T21:37:03Z Bike: slot-value and accessors are
2017-12-02T21:39:09Z whoman: ah. i was hoping for a record update, reverse destructuring-bind i suppose; or if it is not too hard to make a slot-values place
2017-12-02T21:39:38Z Bike: clhs with-slots
2017-12-02T21:39:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm
2017-12-02T21:39:42Z Bike: that, maybe?
2017-12-02T21:40:46Z whoman: yes, the reverse of that yes, sorry =)
2017-12-02T21:40:56Z Bike: ....reverse?
2017-12-02T21:41:30Z whoman: hmm for eg. (set-slots obj [(] :moo 'cow :grass 'poo [)])
2017-12-02T21:41:45Z Bike: oh, i see.
2017-12-02T21:41:51Z Bike: you can use reinitialize-instance like that.
2017-12-02T21:41:54Z whoman: it is a nice way to keep data changes in places, i think it is functional-style
2017-12-02T21:41:59Z whoman: hmmm
2017-12-02T21:42:16Z whoman: that sounds a bit more surgery than i feel is required =)
2017-12-02T21:42:42Z Bike: reinitialize instance more or less lets you set a bunch of slots at once. is that not what you said?
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2017-12-02T21:43:32Z whoman: yes, exactly .. but, i assumed the title was something that shouldnt happen as often as i would like it to (all the time)
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2017-12-02T21:43:46Z whoman: i am also accustomed to C and pointers and reallocating and fragmentation and etc
2017-12-02T21:43:55Z Bike: what does that have to do with anything?
2017-12-02T21:44:16Z _death: whoman: https://gist.github.com/death/c63fa9dca9bca8d70d00ce78b4e5cadb an old hack
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2017-12-02T21:54:48Z Xach: borodust: hi, when i try to dist-update it does not think there is anything new. version issue maybe?
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2017-12-02T21:56:51Z Xach: i am very excited to try the fix
2017-12-02T21:58:50Z whoman: _death, cool thanks
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2017-12-02T22:15:00Z borodust: Xach: need to replace the dist
2017-12-02T22:15:17Z borodust: quicklisp doesn't support same day updates iirc
2017-12-02T22:15:28Z Xach: borodust: sure it does. just add more numbers.
2017-12-02T22:15:32Z borodust: i see
2017-12-02T22:15:37Z Xach: the version is an arbitrary string
2017-12-02T22:15:46Z borodust: need to patchup quickdist then
2017-12-02T22:15:47Z Xach: you could append "00" and go to "01" or whatever
2017-12-02T22:15:52Z borodust: nice
2017-12-02T22:16:04Z borodust: i guess is8601 would do
2017-12-02T22:16:16Z borodust: *iso
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2017-12-02T22:22:02Z borodust: Xach: lemme know if replacing a dist worked for you
2017-12-02T22:22:38Z borodust: while i'm patching up quickdist for having a better precision ;p
2017-12-02T22:23:15Z Shinmera: I made a bunch of fixes for quickdist to allow that like years ago
2017-12-02T22:23:22Z Shinmera: Never submitted them. Whoops.
2017-12-02T22:23:28Z borodust: Shinmera: :(
2017-12-02T22:23:54Z earl-ducaine: Lispologists!  q: getting an SBCL warning that I'm using an obsolete form of do when I try and compile the following: (defun my-do-old () (do ((alfa   0.0)) () (return (list alfa))))
2017-12-02T22:24:17Z earl-ducaine: I'm guessing that that's the old way of writing: (defun my-do-ansi () (do ((alfa   0.0)) (nil) (return (list alfa))))
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2017-12-02T22:25:16Z earl-ducaine: i.e. exit condition for 'do forever' used to be just the empty list now the exit clause must have the condition to be checked, even if it's constant.
2017-12-02T22:25:32Z earl-ducaine: Can anyone confirm that is in fact the old behavior?
2017-12-02T22:25:50Z earl-ducaine: (mucking about with some ancient code)
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2017-12-02T22:26:41Z earl-ducaine: i.e. 'asking for a friend'    :)
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2017-12-02T22:31:45Z phoe: earl-ducaine: I think so, yes. I think the return condition must be explicitly stated, even if it's always NIL.
2017-12-02T22:32:28Z phoe: ;; Though that function could be obviously optimized to (defun my-do-old () (list 0.0)) - but I don't think that's what your question is about.
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2017-12-02T22:33:43Z borodust: Xach: not that you had any doubt but that indeed works ;p
2017-12-02T22:34:00Z borodust: i've updated dist with more precise "versions"
2017-12-02T22:36:29Z Bike: ducaine is asking about how do worked before CL, i think.
2017-12-02T22:37:59Z phoe: Bike: In this case, I have no idea. It could perhaps be possible to study CLtL1 and earlier Lisp manuals.
2017-12-02T22:38:28Z earl-ducaine: Thanks phoe just too lazy to qualify my example as being for illustritave purposes only!  Bike: yes that's correct.
2017-12-02T22:38:35Z earl-ducaine: Just refered back to the Chinual and it seems even in Zeta Lisp (nil) was normative for 'do forever'
2017-12-02T22:39:15Z Bike: cltl2 has a required end-test.
2017-12-02T22:39:15Z earl-ducaine: So, it must of been a syntax error that just happened to work in older implementations.
2017-12-02T22:39:26Z Bike: figures.
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2017-12-03T03:55:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-03T06:43:57Z basket: Hi
2017-12-03T06:44:06Z beach: Hello basket.
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2017-12-03T08:45:21Z dmiles adds (defun my-do-ansi () (do ((alfa 0.0)) (nil) (return (list alfa)))) to wam-cl
2017-12-03T08:45:44Z dmiles as a testcase for optimizer
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2017-12-03T08:46:59Z dmiles: not bad.. https://pastebin.com/7LduXfQB
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2017-12-03T08:49:55Z dmiles: though it makes the far jump (no optiize)
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2017-12-03T09:00:22Z dmiles: what optimization libaries convert that to (defun my-do-ansi () (list 0.0))  ?
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2017-12-03T09:08:18Z dmiles: perhaps http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.partial-eval;a=summary
2017-12-03T09:09:51Z shka: hello
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2017-12-03T09:11:15Z shka: beach: do you know about T lisp? It is said to be a remarkable implementation and it had first class envs akin to SICL.
2017-12-03T09:15:04Z pjb: T is in the scheme family: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/scheme_family/#T_
2017-12-03T09:15:11Z pjb: NIL is in the usual lisp family ;-)
2017-12-03T09:15:30Z pjb: (MacLisp) http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_family/#NIL,_S-1_Lisp_
2017-12-03T09:15:42Z shka: pjb: yeah, i STILL consider scheme to be a lisp :P
2017-12-03T09:15:48Z pjb: Sure.
2017-12-03T09:16:25Z dmiles: help me out.. should it be possible to git a scheme fully compatible to common lisp ?
2017-12-03T09:16:37Z pjb: dmiles: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2017-12-03T09:17:06Z pjb: dmiles: you have to be careful to write your code to be meaningful in both lisp-1 and lisp-2.
2017-12-03T09:17:39Z pjb: dmiles: also, have a look at Butterfly CL (implemented in Butterfly Scheme), and at pseudo-scheme (implemented in CL), and a few others like that.
2017-12-03T09:20:35Z dmiles: oh good these are very helpfull
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2017-12-03T09:28:58Z pjb: dmiles: also, for a practical approach, you could have a look at Common Music version 2.
2017-12-03T09:29:57Z beach: shka: Yes, I know about T.  I have read the Orbit paper and some other stuff related to T.
2017-12-03T09:30:11Z pjb: The version 3  uses C++ to implement the applicative scheme, but the version 2 did that with Common Lisp.  It implements a small scheme in Common Lisp, and use it to implement the application in scheme.
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2017-12-03T09:31:52Z dmiles: version 2 sounds great then.. secretly i was worried i would have to rewrite wam-cl to be able to run scheme code (like adding some special whatnot)
2017-12-03T09:32:40Z dmiles: even if i have to add that whatnot to do scheme .. at least i have an inchworm starting from converting a CL verison of Scheme to prolog
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2017-12-03T09:32:55Z beach: dmiles: In general, Common Lisp and Scheme are sufficiently different that one can not run programs in the other.  Only if you use a very small subset of both of them, and if you are very careful how you write those programs will such a thing be possible.
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2017-12-03T09:34:02Z dmiles: (special whatnot = call/cc)
2017-12-03T09:34:34Z pjb: dmiles: if the idea is to generaly mix and match languages in a common environment, you should definitely look at poplog.
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2017-12-03T09:34:57Z pjb: dmiles: http://www.cliki.net/PopLog
2017-12-03T09:35:27Z dmiles: the only thing that scares me away from poplog is it is not on Lisp or Prolog
2017-12-03T09:35:30Z pjb: or work with beach to provide a separate scheme compiler targetting the sicl backend ;-)
2017-12-03T09:35:39Z dmiles: (so its harder for me to understand is all)
2017-12-03T09:36:16Z pjb: Better do that early while it's still time to add features to the backend if needed for scheme.
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2017-12-03T09:38:43Z dmiles: from what i understand is that SICL does everyting right as far as it prevides a lisp that can be implmented with not one specific part that isnt writen in lisp
2017-12-03T09:38:57Z pjb: Yes.
2017-12-03T09:39:27Z dmiles: meaning if you can impl at least these 100 or totallly a differnt 100 trampolines then you can get a full CL
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2017-12-03T09:40:16Z dmiles: what are the actual numbers ? (probably not 100)
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2017-12-03T09:49:39Z beach: dmiles: What do you mean by a "trampoline" in this context?
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2017-12-03T09:53:02Z dmiles: well trampoline is a littel too little.. what i really meant was at least some kind of REPL that does some lisp (not quite CL) and then by tramplines i mean at least some lisp functionality exists in the impl like  #'EQ  #'MAKE-VECTOR  REPLACD
2017-12-03T09:53:35Z dmiles: some functionally that SICL can at least begin to work with
2017-12-03T09:53:47Z beach: That is not how SICL works though.
2017-12-03T09:53:56Z dmiles: ah.. glad i am asking
2017-12-03T09:54:11Z turkja: pjb: i'm now a bit confused.. to what it looks to me, Common Music 2 is a pure CL application, it just automatically ports some of the Scheme code (translated code looks horrible, but works). Anyways, you write the programs in CL. I'm using it with SBCL.
2017-12-03T09:54:22Z dmiles: i keep getting SICL confused with some other Impl
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2017-12-03T09:54:46Z beach: dmiles: It is a common way of bootstrapping Common Lisp systems, and then the minimal system is written in something other than Common Lisp.  I explicitly did not want to do it that way, because then I would have to write large parts of the system in a subset of Common Lisp and that turned out to be too painful.
2017-12-03T09:54:56Z pjb: turkja: I may be wrong.  I thought it had basically the same structure as CM3.
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2017-12-03T09:55:22Z turkja: It's CL, and it is still used quite a lot actually
2017-12-03T09:55:22Z pjb: I have the sources around, but I could only gave it a quick look.
2017-12-03T09:55:31Z pjb: ok.  Better then!
2017-12-03T09:55:37Z dmiles: beach: so give a small overview of how SICL is written if you dont mind
2017-12-03T09:56:11Z pjb: I'd bet there's a document somewhere.
2017-12-03T09:56:20Z dmiles: yeah or a document
2017-12-03T09:56:21Z beach: It is written using the full Common Lisp language.  To create an executable, it requires that some of the code be executed by a host Common Lisp system.
2017-12-03T09:56:27Z dmiles: (to to avoid  write large parts of the system in a subset of Common Lisp )
2017-12-03T09:56:34Z turkja: now wait
2017-12-03T09:56:34Z jmercouris: I saw this article on reddit, and it got me thinking about clos: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7h7ffc/implementation_inheritance_is_evil/
2017-12-03T09:56:34Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html.in
2017-12-03T09:56:34Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: have a look at:  git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/clang-ast
2017-12-03T09:56:44Z turkja: Common Music is different
2017-12-03T09:57:15Z pjb: jmercouris: I don't agree that inheritance is evil.  IMO a better formulation would be that inheritance is too complex for mosts human brains, it seems.
2017-12-03T09:57:30Z beach: dmiles: For example, the SICL LOOP macro uses standard classes to represent the clauses, so CLOS is required to expand the LOOP macro.  And of course, CLOS uses LOOP a lot.
2017-12-03T09:57:47Z pjb: (there are books full of formal semantics of OOPL, so indeed, it may be too complex for most humans).
2017-12-03T09:57:51Z jmercouris: pjb: It's about implementation inheritance in a multiple inheritance scenario
2017-12-03T09:58:20Z jmercouris: pjb: as far as I understand, interface inheritance = good, but implementation = bad, too much unexpected
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2017-12-03T09:58:29Z dmiles: beach: ahah not that LOOP<->CLOS relation would happen in the immagined SICL i had
2017-12-03T09:58:32Z beach: Anyway, I'll have lunch guests in a few minutes, so I'll be off for several hours.
2017-12-03T09:58:38Z dmiles: beach: ahah now i see..  that LOOP<->CLOS relation would happen in the immagined SICL i had
2017-12-03T09:58:40Z pjb: Well, in lisp we keep doing that. We call it "punning".  Of course, it's done only at a small scale, eg. lists or trees are actually cons cells, so we may use car/cdr on them.
2017-12-03T09:59:37Z beach: dmiles: In SICL, I can also do things like (defclass symbol (t) ((%name ...) (%package ...)) (:metaclass built-in-class))
2017-12-03T09:59:38Z pjb: jmercouris: I'd tend to agree, once you follow strictly the lyskov substitution principle, with good pre/post conditions defined for each of your methods, you cannot randomly use inheritance just for implementation.
2017-12-03T10:00:14Z beach: dmiles: Most Common Lisp implementations must do something special for built-in classes, because most implementations start with a subset that does not contain CLOS.
2017-12-03T10:00:27Z jmercouris: pjb: What is the lyskov substitution principle?
2017-12-03T10:00:27Z turkja: pjb: this is updated unofficial repo of CM2: https://github.com/ormf/cm
2017-12-03T10:00:49Z pjb: turkja: thank you.
2017-12-03T10:01:02Z jmercouris: pjb: Is your site down? I can't load your links
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2017-12-03T10:01:20Z jmercouris: it could also be my internet, I'm tethering as I have been moving these past few days... :\
2017-12-03T10:01:29Z pjb: jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_substitution_principle
2017-12-03T10:01:31Z pjb: liskov.
2017-12-03T10:02:07Z turkja: This is how the translated code looks like: https://github.com/ormf/cm/blob/master/src/scales.lisp
2017-12-03T10:02:09Z pjb: jmercouris: do you mean for: git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/clang-ast ?
2017-12-03T10:02:12Z pjb: it works from here.
2017-12-03T10:02:38Z pjb: turkja: so the source is really in scheme.
2017-12-03T10:03:03Z dmiles: beach: interesting .. so the intended usecase mostly to create executables?
2017-12-03T10:03:06Z pjb: Generated files cannot be maintained.  This is why I started to write a C compiler targetting CL, to be able to run GNU emacs in a CL image.
2017-12-03T10:03:35Z turkja: pjb: originally yes, but it is somehow generated as Lisp, so it can be run on for example SBCL
2017-12-03T10:03:50Z pjb: turkja: Of course.
2017-12-03T10:04:05Z dmiles: (for instance if i couldnt on wam-cl produce executables)
2017-12-03T10:05:39Z beach: dmiles: By "the executable" I mean the SICL system itself, the one that gets executed when you type "sicl" to the shell prompt.
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2017-12-03T10:06:15Z beach: dmiles: And, no, that is not the intended use case.
2017-12-03T10:07:52Z turkja: CM2 is IMHO still the best algorithmic composition system around :D
2017-12-03T10:08:05Z jmercouris: pjb: Yeah the clone :\
2017-12-03T10:08:25Z jmercouris: says: The server unexpectedly dropped the connection
2017-12-03T10:10:01Z dmiles: beach: but it is for someone implementing lisp to borrow from so they dont need to maintain some copy?
2017-12-03T10:10:42Z jmercouris: pjb: Did you by any chance try my browser?
2017-12-03T10:10:56Z dmiles: beach: some copy of loop.lisp that they copied from XCL lisp
2017-12-03T10:11:33Z beach: dmiles: Sure, it is free.  But you can't use it to obtain a full Common Lisp system from a subset of Common Lisp.  I have no defined dependency order.  There are circular dependencies.
2017-12-03T10:12:03Z dmiles: beach: circular is jsut fine for me.. sinc ei jsut implenet whatever breaks your loop
2017-12-03T10:12:15Z pjb: jmercouris: sorry, I'm short on time currently, so I cannot try stuff.
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2017-12-03T10:12:36Z beach: dmiles: So, LOOP uses LOOP.
2017-12-03T10:12:51Z jmercouris: pjb: It's okay, if you do try it though, please let me know, I would be very interested in feedback about the usability of it
2017-12-03T10:13:10Z beach: dmiles: Every built-in class, like SYMBOL, PACKAGE, HASH-TABLE requires CLOS.
2017-12-03T10:13:46Z dmiles: beach: i ended making a somewhat minimal loop i assume will be redified by XMLs loop.. in our case (SICL and I) I end up not using your loop if it ends up being an issue
2017-12-03T10:13:46Z beach: dmiles: Do you intend to implement LOOP to break the dependency of LOOP so that you can use SICL LOOP in your system?
2017-12-03T10:13:59Z dmiles: XML/XCLs
2017-12-03T10:14:05Z beach: dmiles: The entire system is like that.
2017-12-03T10:14:45Z dmiles: well if they HASH-TABEL uses CLOS that is easier form me
2017-12-03T10:15:28Z dmiles: if PACKAGE uses CLOS (in fact i wrote my package impl in my sub-clos)
2017-12-03T10:15:35Z dmiles: that might be fine
2017-12-03T10:16:13Z jmercouris: beach: Which time zone are you in?
2017-12-03T10:16:23Z beach: UTC+1
2017-12-03T10:16:31Z jmercouris: beach: I thought you were australian?
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2017-12-03T10:16:59Z beach: I have no idea why you thought that.  But I could have been and still live in UTC+1.
2017-12-03T10:17:18Z jmercouris: beach: If you don't mind me asking, where are you from?
2017-12-03T10:17:26Z dmiles: beach still i'll end up using ytour PACKAGE with my Less-Sub-CLOS jsut because my PACKAGE isnt all that brilliant
2017-12-03T10:17:57Z beach: jmercouris: That is a question that is too hard for me to answer, and if I tried, the answer would be misleading.  I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents.
2017-12-03T10:18:15Z dmiles: Less-sub-CLOS (less sub-CLOS than my current CLOS)
2017-12-03T10:19:10Z beach: jmercouris: I am a citizen of the European Union.  That much is certain.
2017-12-03T10:20:06Z jmercouris: beach: Let me ask a simpler question, what is your first language?
2017-12-03T10:20:41Z turkja: beach: maybe you appear as australian because of your decent online times :) i'm at UTC+2 and log in usually around the same in the morning
2017-12-03T10:21:23Z beach: jmercouris: The one I master best is English.
2017-12-03T10:21:30Z beach: jmercouris: But that is off topic.
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2017-12-03T10:21:47Z jmercouris: Yep, sorry, didn't mean to derail the channel, I was just wondering because of the time discrepancies
2017-12-03T10:22:09Z dmiles typing and grammar is so poor usualyl he is asked in English is his first language
2017-12-03T10:23:39Z dmiles will probably do what ABCL did have sucky versions of lots of CL then let the .lisp libraries create the good versions
2017-12-03T10:24:04Z pjb: jmercouris: furthermore, beach originaly came from a country that doesn't exist anymore, and is living in a country that soon won't exist anymore either.
2017-12-03T10:24:30Z pjb: As for the EU, I won't expand here…
2017-12-03T10:25:05Z dmiles: (ABCL replaces the .java versions of MAKE-PACKAGE and HASH-TABLE with versions coded in lisp)
2017-12-03T10:25:56Z pjb: dmiles: the "replaces" part is only an artefact of the bootstrap process.  You could more easily just generate a good lisp image eithout modifying the current one.
2017-12-03T10:26:20Z dmiles: (so ABCL contains as many cycles perhaps as SICL)
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2017-12-03T10:27:53Z dmiles: pjb: you mean with SICL it actualyl may not need to modify what it loads on?
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2017-12-03T10:28:51Z pjb: dmiles: I don't know precisely how sicl does it. In general, you can just build the future lisp image separately from the current process.  Imagine you wrote it in C++!
2017-12-03T10:30:03Z dmiles: ah yes.. once the lisp is actualyl built on WAM CL.. and the entrie system is transpiled i suppose i never have to go back to my broken versions
2017-12-03T10:30:15Z jmercouris: pjb: How does the serialization process look? just like a memory dump? or does it have to be specialized and written?
2017-12-03T10:31:08Z pjb: jmercouris: it can be anything you want.  The principle is to have an internal model of the new lisp image, and to save it to a file in the right format.
2017-12-03T10:31:35Z pjb: Since this file will contain the image loading part, you're free to do it however you want.
2017-12-03T10:32:54Z dmiles: (my package.trans.pl (which was made from package.lisp converting)  replaces my https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/package.pl dump bpackage version )
2017-12-03T10:33:02Z jmercouris: So the image itself contains information on how to load the image?
2017-12-03T10:33:27Z jmercouris: So you are saying that the implementation of the image saving may change dramatically without the kernel changing? is that the idea?
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2017-12-03T10:36:36Z dmiles: also i can just "translate" SICL to *.trans.pl files and then go in an fix my translation errors
2017-12-03T10:38:40Z dmiles: (eventually i would hope to not have any .pl files that i wrote myself)
2017-12-03T10:39:30Z dmiles: (this info for jmercouris kind of... and to confirm with pjb if that is also part of what he meant)
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2017-12-03T10:40:53Z dmiles: and realizing that beach's circular issue is not a problem if i dont even try to replace anyhting.. just run over everything and see what i can today translate into working
2017-12-03T10:41:50Z pjb: jmercouris: yes.
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2017-12-03T10:42:31Z pjb: jmercouris: executable images (apart from ecl which doesn't actually generate images, but actual executables) contain code to load the rest of the image in their executable part.
2017-12-03T10:42:55Z pjb: jmercouris: and non executable images contain (usually) code to save an image, including an executable image, therefore they contain the code to load the image!
2017-12-03T10:44:07Z dmiles: it is probly extra work to uninclude the ability to write an image .. though AllegroCL did try for a bit
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2017-12-03T10:45:32Z pjb: It can be a feature requrested by commercial users.
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2017-12-03T11:46:26Z flip214: minion: note for attila_lendvai: Hi, would you care to discuss a small iterate feature request? You're the last committer, I didn't find anybody else caring about it.
2017-12-03T11:46:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-12-03T11:48:58Z jmercouris: pjb: Very interesting, I'm starting to understand non ecl- things a little more
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2017-12-03T12:38:42Z beach: pjb: Thanks for the clarification! :)
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2017-12-03T12:44:37Z Xach: borodust: just tried with latest dist, no luck :(
2017-12-03T12:45:15Z Xach: borodust: https://gist.github.com/quicklisp/1514c6cc8381f7c7fa6ef7577acfc608 has it
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2017-12-03T13:08:45Z phoe: I have a list (:a :b :c :d :e :f). There was a function that found an element in the list in a way that it returned the list's nthcdr containing that element, like, (foo :d list) ;=> (:d :e :f). What was that function?
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2017-12-03T13:09:56Z Bike: member
2017-12-03T13:11:13Z phoe: member - thanks.
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2017-12-03T13:13:04Z Xach: i was hoping this was a case for the obscure (to me) http://l1sp.org/cl/get-properties
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2017-12-03T13:20:23Z shka: heh
2017-12-03T13:21:14Z shka: nice to see that i am not the only one that finds some parts of CL obscure
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2017-12-03T13:27:42Z Xach: that's one of those functions i want to use but can't find the situation often enough
2017-12-03T13:29:37Z shka: heh, this makes me want to make new project named that-one-project-that-uses-get-properties :D
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2017-12-03T14:02:28Z borodust: Xach: ;(
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2017-12-03T14:03:52Z borodust: hmm, alright, lets see what else that could be
2017-12-03T14:04:11Z borodust: too bad it mostly works on macos D:
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2017-12-03T14:10:24Z dmiles has i use properties sybols when i dont want to use a separate hastable
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2017-12-03T14:11:00Z dmiles: separate hashtable to remember something about the symbol
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2017-12-03T14:13:02Z dmiles: for instance if i am printing out information about sometings in a list and that list might repeat.. the way i remember that i prointed the items is to put a property on that time
2017-12-03T14:13:50Z dmiles: rather than a hashtable that remembers i printed some item
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2017-12-03T14:14:52Z dmiles: worst way ever to use them i know
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2017-12-03T14:47:25Z borodust: Xach: btw, does window with "Scene" title appear before crashing int debugger?
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2017-12-03T15:27:18Z Xach: Shinmera: getting something new today - http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-03/failure-report/lionchat.html#lionchat
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2017-12-03T16:02:45Z Shinmera: Uuuuh
2017-12-03T16:02:48Z Shinmera: that makes no sense
2017-12-03T16:03:20Z Xach: Ok!
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2017-12-03T16:03:45Z Shinmera: It's a variable that's defined like a line above where it's used, inside the ASD.
2017-12-03T16:05:10Z Shinmera: I also can't seem to reproduce it
2017-12-03T16:05:30Z Xach gives it another look
2017-12-03T16:07:13Z Xach: Now I get an error about destructuring-bind and sb-walker. hmm
2017-12-03T16:07:39Z Xach: something in ubiquitous now.
2017-12-03T16:07:40Z Shinmera: Oh boy.
2017-12-03T16:08:02Z Shinmera: Ubiquitous is about one of my least suspicious systems.
2017-12-03T16:08:16Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-03/failure-report/ubiquitous.html#ubiquitous
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2017-12-03T16:09:24Z Xach: well, no error 24 hours ago, but error now
2017-12-03T16:09:48Z Shinmera: Looks like phoe broke it https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous/commit/fca63bbe4c0a4215fe2f11eac16e14bb77ad07c6
2017-12-03T16:10:17Z Shinmera: But I don't think that's invalid code-- yeah?
2017-12-03T16:11:10Z Shinmera: I'll ask #sbcl.
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2017-12-03T16:12:18Z scymtym: Shinmera: re that commit: the structure is (if found (values …) (values …) nil) instead of (if found (values …) (values … nil))
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2017-12-03T16:12:55Z Shinmera: Ooh, I see it now
2017-12-03T16:12:57Z Shinmera: Good catch.
2017-12-03T16:13:54Z Shinmera: Pushed a fix. Thanks, scymtym
2017-12-03T16:14:15Z scymtym: sure
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2017-12-03T16:14:37Z XachX: funky error message
2017-12-03T16:14:44Z scymtym: i wish SBCL's PCL didn't use the walker thing
2017-12-03T16:16:05Z Xach: Shinmera: pushed?
2017-12-03T16:16:09Z Shinmera: Yes
2017-12-03T16:16:15Z Xach: To where?
2017-12-03T16:16:17Z Shinmera: Or not
2017-12-03T16:16:20Z Shinmera: ugh
2017-12-03T16:16:28Z Shinmera: Missed a minibuffer prompt.
2017-12-03T16:16:32Z Shinmera: pushed now, sorry.
2017-12-03T16:16:40Z Xach: mycket bra!
2017-12-03T16:16:51Z scymtym: on the bright side, since a few releases, the offending form would have been highlighted in SLIME instead of the whole method form. comparison: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/macroexpansion-condition-locations.png
2017-12-03T16:17:44Z Xach: Shinmera: things look better now, thanks
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2017-12-03T16:19:09Z Shinmera: Hoorah
2017-12-03T16:21:02Z Shinmera has been dealing with gamepads crap on all OSs today and isn't ready to handle the rest of the world he built crumbling too
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2017-12-03T16:31:21Z phoe: god damn, I broke ubiquitous
2017-12-03T16:31:32Z phoe: Shinmera: sorry
2017-12-03T16:33:04Z Xach: It's ok! I caught it!
2017-12-03T16:33:34Z kuwze: could someone point me at a good small codebase to learn how to break a project up? right now I just have a single humongous file.
2017-12-03T16:34:32Z beach: kuwze: I am fairly proud of Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2017-12-03T16:35:04Z beach: kuwze: It uses CLOS a lot, just like other modern Common Lisp programs.  And it comes with documentation and tests.
2017-12-03T16:35:15Z kuwze: beach: thank you!
2017-12-03T16:35:27Z beach: kuwze: Anytime.
2017-12-03T16:38:47Z pjb: kuwze: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman
2017-12-03T16:39:09Z pjb: kuwze: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=tree&p=public/games/hangman-cocoa-lisp&h=e97207bf8840c93a3aa45f743c3ce3d56820e53c&hb=d2b05300c771147337bcbf074d4d7af60d813ff9&f=src
2017-12-03T16:40:04Z kuwze: pjb: thank you; that looks like a very minimal example
2017-12-03T16:40:52Z pjb: kuwze: https://gitlab.com/abnotation/gsharp is a little bigger.
2017-12-03T16:40:58Z Shinmera: I guess while we're at it, Ubiquitous is fairly small. https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous
2017-12-03T16:44:31Z kuwze: thank you guys!
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2017-12-03T16:57:21Z kuwze: okay I am trying to figure out thus bug. first of all, it only happens sometimes when I compile the whole project (ql:quickload "cl-oanda"). the bug/error goes away when I quit slime and restart it.
2017-12-03T16:57:31Z kuwze: here is the relevant code: https://gist.github.com/kuwze/57079a629a67d8dca229c8d795728d57
2017-12-03T16:57:36Z kuwze: this*
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2017-12-03T16:58:32Z kuwze: I am using Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11-r16635  (LinuxX8664)
2017-12-03T16:59:09Z Shinmera: dlowe: Apparently you sent me a note about Portacle debug settings a long time ago that I never got because plexi isn't in this channel?
2017-12-03T16:59:50Z Shinmera: dlowe: The answer is that it used to use restrict-compiler-policy to force debug to 3 at one point, until I discovered that certain systems like cl-opengl perform very poorly with that.
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2017-12-03T17:01:42Z beach: kuwze: "typex" and "orderBook" are never going to be EQL.
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2017-12-03T17:02:52Z kuwze: beach: thank you for pointing that out.
2017-12-03T17:02:59Z beach: kuwze: And RESULT is not a hash table, it's a list.
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2017-12-03T17:03:33Z beach: kuwze: Why is this a macro?
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2017-12-03T17:05:33Z beach: kuwze: Why are you implementing make-book as a macro rather than as a function?
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2017-12-03T17:05:55Z kuwze: beach: I guess I was trying to practice with macros; I am not sure what I was thinking at the time
2017-12-03T17:06:10Z kuwze: also what does this mean?: Process inferior-lisp segmentation fault (core dumped)
2017-12-03T17:06:42Z beach: kuwze: You can practice macros if you like, but then do it with something that requires a macro.  I don't think make-book does.
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2017-12-03T17:07:49Z beach: That means either of several things:  1. Your Common Lisp implementation is buggy.  2. You are doing something that the Common Lisp HyperSpec says has "undefined consequences" and your Common Lisp implementation is taking advantage of that, or 3.  You are using buggy foreign code.
2017-12-03T17:08:04Z kuwze: beach: no, I don't want to add aritificial complexity. I'll change it to a function.
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2017-12-03T17:08:59Z kuwze: beach, in regards to the segfault: I am not using ffi, and I am using the mature CCL, so I guess it must be 2
2017-12-03T17:09:39Z beach: Possibly.  Though CCL should not take advantage of those situations very much.
2017-12-03T17:10:23Z beach: kuwze: Oh, and given your level of knowledge of Common Lisp, I think Cluffer is probably too complicated at this point.  But I didn't know that when I recommended it.  Sorry.
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2017-12-03T17:15:54Z kuwze: I'm sorry, but what's the newbite channel for common lisp? I don't want to bog down this channel
2017-12-03T17:16:06Z kuwze: newbie*
2017-12-03T17:16:30Z beach: #clnoobs, but I don't know how reactive it is.
2017-12-03T17:18:08Z Devon: (fboundp '(setf car)) => NIL	(fdefinition '(setf car)) and (function '(setf car)) both err undefined-function; No simple way to detect setf-able names?
2017-12-03T17:18:53Z beach: Use FBOUNDP is you did.
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2017-12-03T17:19:35Z basket: Devon: (fboundp '(setf car)) should return t
2017-12-03T17:19:37Z Devon: (fboundp '(setf car)) incorrectly returns NIL in CCL.
2017-12-03T17:19:43Z beach: basket: Why?
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2017-12-03T17:21:58Z basket: beach: Should it not?
2017-12-03T17:21:59Z Devon: CLHS 5.1.2.9 Other Compound Forms as Places
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2017-12-03T17:22:13Z Devon: A function named (setf f) must return its first argument as its only value in order to preserve the semantics of setf.
2017-12-03T17:23:28Z beach: I can't find it now, but I think there is a general rule that when the Common Lisp HyperSpec says it's an "accessor", then it can be implemented either as a function or as a setf expander.
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2017-12-03T17:24:24Z Devon: CLHS says in several places that (setf f), i.e., (setf car), is a function name.
2017-12-03T17:24:39Z Devon: i.e./e.g.
2017-12-03T17:24:48Z Shinmera: It's a function name, but that doesn't mean that an accessor needs to be a function
2017-12-03T17:25:06Z Shinmera: There is a section that specifies that an implementation is allowed to implement (setf foo) as a setf-expander on foo rather than a function.
2017-12-03T17:25:15Z Devon: Nobody ever said (setf car) was an accessor.
2017-12-03T17:25:30Z beach: clhs car
2017-12-03T17:25:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2017-12-03T17:25:56Z beach: Devon: CAR is an accessor.  So you can use (setf (car <form>) ...)
2017-12-03T17:26:27Z Devon: Yes, CAR is an accessor and (SETF CAR) is a function name.
2017-12-03T17:26:27Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, but how to find it? :(
2017-12-03T17:26:43Z beach: Devon: Listen to Shinmera.
2017-12-03T17:26:52Z beach: clhs glossary/function name
2017-12-03T17:26:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#function_name
2017-12-03T17:27:23Z beach: Devon: function name doesn't mean that it is bound to a function.
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2017-12-03T17:27:25Z Shinmera: beach: I'm looking
2017-12-03T17:27:32Z basket: It seems (fboundp '(setf car)) is nil on Allegro, LW, Clisp, and CCL, and T on SBCL
2017-12-03T17:27:47Z beach: basket: And that is perfectly valid.
2017-12-03T17:27:51Z basket: Right
2017-12-03T17:29:00Z Devon: The symbol CAR and the list (SETF CAR) are both function names.  (fboundp 'car) works, if (fboundp '(setf car)) is not required to work, what does?
2017-12-03T17:29:16Z Shinmera: clhs 5.1.1.2
2017-12-03T17:29:16Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm
2017-12-03T17:29:19Z Shinmera: For each standardized accessor function F, unless it is explicitly documented otherwise, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to use an F form as a setf place is implemented by a setf expander or a setf function. Also, it follows from this that it is implementation-dependent whether the name (setf F) is fbound.
2017-12-03T17:30:23Z Bike: the fact that you can (setf (car ...) ...) doesn't mean there's a function called (setf car). the setf working can also be accomplished by a setf expansion (into eg rplaca and returning the value)
2017-12-03T17:31:34Z Devon: Shinmera: Thanks for finding that.  The question of how to detect whether a given symbol is setf-able or not remains unanswered.
2017-12-03T17:31:57Z Bike: i don't think you can.
2017-12-03T17:32:07Z pjb: And even if (setf f) is bound, it's still implementation-dependent whether it's used by setf!
2017-12-03T17:32:15Z Devon: Lol
2017-12-03T17:32:17Z Bike: get-setf-expansion will return a default sometimes, and if it returns the default you can check whether (setf f) is bound
2017-12-03T17:32:42Z Bike: but i don't know if that's reliable, maybe an implementation could return a non-default setf expansion that still doesn't work
2017-12-03T17:32:58Z pjb: Bike: I wouldn't be so sure.  I'd rather use (macroexpand-1 '(setf (f x) v)) to check whether there's a (setf f) function…
2017-12-03T17:33:13Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks!
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2017-12-03T17:42:18Z Devon: (second (fourth (multiple-value-list (get-setf-expansion '(#:foo #:bar))))) => #'(SETF #:FOO) in CCL but it smells unportable
2017-12-03T17:42:43Z Bike: Why do you want to do this?
2017-12-03T17:43:42Z Bike: there can also be situations like, you have a file with (defun (setf foo) ...), and also (setf (foo ...) ...) forms in the file. while compiling the file there is no setf function (and no custom setf expansion), but it'll be fine when it's loaded
2017-12-03T17:43:42Z Devon: To require defsetf file-position
2017-12-03T17:44:10Z Bike: you're not allowed to define a setf for file-position, it's a CL symbol.
2017-12-03T17:44:16Z pjb: (second (fourth (multiple-value-list (get-setf-expansion '(car x))))) #| --> #:g66321 |#
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2017-12-03T17:44:42Z Devon: Right, if the expansion looks like #'(setf ##) then there is no expander.
2017-12-03T17:44:46Z pjb: ecl returns (RPLACA #:G143 #:G144), all the others a gensym.
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2017-12-03T17:46:41Z Bike: like, (defsetf file-position ...) is verboten.
2017-12-03T17:47:59Z Devon: (defsetf file-position file-position) => FILE-POSITION ; So CCL does it and implementations have so much latitude in this, it'd be truly bizarre to forbid it.
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2017-12-03T17:48:30Z Bike: it's okay for an implementation to do it, but you can't.
2017-12-03T17:48:42Z Bike: clhs 11.1.2.1.2 and all.
2017-12-03T17:49:52Z Devon: 11.1.2.1.2 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs ... undefined ... 13. Defining a setf expander for it (via defsetf or define-setf-method).
2017-12-03T17:49:55Z Devon: bummer
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2017-12-03T17:50:12Z Bike: you'll just have to settle for calling file position with the new value yourself.
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2017-12-03T17:51:07Z Devon: (incf (file-position s) i) ; no such luck
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2017-12-03T17:52:24Z Bike: maybe the reason it doesn't have a setf is that it doesn't return the new value like setf is supposed to.
2017-12-03T17:52:37Z Bike: instead it returns a success value (which is also kind of weird)
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2017-12-03T17:52:45Z Devon: Lack of (setf file-position) is ugly, implementors should support it.
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2017-12-03T17:53:22Z Bike: but then you can't determine whether it actually changed or not.
2017-12-03T17:53:35Z Devon: Hmm, that breaks the only-fetch-once guarantee.
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2017-12-03T18:01:32Z Devon: Thanks everyone, (incf (file-position s) i) will have to wait for the next *ahem* ANSI committee.
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2017-12-03T18:10:56Z pjb: Devon: notice however that it should work on implementations running on POSIX systems, and assuming the stream is a binary stream or uses a 1-1 encoding.
2017-12-03T18:12:12Z pjb: I mean, (file-position s (1+ (file-position s)))
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2017-12-03T18:16:17Z pjb: Devon: also, (defun fpos (stream) (file-position stream)) (defsetf fpos (stream) (position) `(file-position ,stream ,position))  and then: (incf (fpos stream) i)
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2017-12-03T18:33:58Z Devon: pjb: Needs gensym s `(let ((,s ,stream)) (unless (file-position ,s ,position) (error "Unable to set file position.")) (file-position ,s))
2017-12-03T18:34:44Z pjb: If you want to give more precise errors, ok.  (incf nil) #| ERROR: The value nil is not of the expected type number. |#  would do too.
2017-12-03T18:36:02Z Bike: defsetf does gensyms for you.
2017-12-03T18:37:02Z Devon: Sans error checking still needs the gensym temp s '(let ((,s ,stream)) (file-position ,s ,position) (file-position ,s))
2017-12-03T18:37:23Z Devon: '/`
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2017-12-03T18:39:34Z Bike: i mean, in the defsetf body stream is bound to a symbol. you don't have to worry about multiple evaluation.
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2017-12-03T19:54:43Z Cr4zko: My question still remains
2017-12-03T19:54:47Z Cr4zko: Wii or PS-Triple?
2017-12-03T19:55:48Z Cr4zko: No?
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2017-12-03T20:54:23Z add^__ is now known as add^_
2017-12-03T20:54:24Z aeth: "The function was called with fourteen arguments, but wants exactly twelve." I've created a monster.
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2017-12-03T20:55:11Z aeth: And, yes, this is *with* helper struct objects, standard objects, and arrays to try to minimize that number.
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2017-12-03T22:04:43Z Devon: clhs unless
2017-12-03T22:04:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm
2017-12-03T22:04:53Z Devon: false/true in CLHS unless ... if the test-form yields false, the forms are evaluated ... Otherwise, if the test-form yields false ...
2017-12-03T22:05:17Z Devon: Is there a cleaned-up version fixing this sort of obvious error?
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2017-12-03T22:10:41Z Bike: there's http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications, and it mentions that but otherwise I don't think so, no
2017-12-03T22:10:51Z Bike: maybe CLUS does, insofar as CLUS is a modified CLHS, which i don't think it is
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2017-12-04T02:50:37Z Josh_2: Vector access time is O(1) right?
2017-12-04T02:50:45Z Josh_2: but list is O(n)? something like that
2017-12-04T02:52:09Z Josh_2: I don't know how to represent the access time of lists O:
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2017-12-04T02:53:03Z Bike: O(n), yes.
2017-12-04T02:53:13Z Josh_2: and Vectors are O(1)?
2017-12-04T02:53:21Z Bike: yes.
2017-12-04T02:53:27Z Bike: in a framework where memory caches don't exist, anyway.
2017-12-04T02:53:48Z Josh_2: Thanks :) Just double checking as I'm putting this into a presentation that's a large chunk of my grade
2017-12-04T02:54:27Z Bike: idealized vector access is an addition to get the memory address followed by an access of the memory address. list access is a memory access for each cons cell traversed, etc
2017-12-04T02:54:55Z Josh_2: Yeah
2017-12-04T02:56:58Z Josh_2: Thanks :D
2017-12-04T02:57:19Z Josh_2: What addition is made?
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2017-12-04T03:04:33Z pierpa: the base address of the vector + the index accessed
2017-12-04T03:07:47Z Josh_2: Thanks :D
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2017-12-04T03:09:36Z dmiles: something i dont get is on the page  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm ..  #'MACROEXPAND uses "&optional env"  ...  but for a macro lambdalist, one uses "&environment env"  like (defmacro expand-1 (form &environment env)  ... )  ?
2017-12-04T03:10:25Z dmiles: the question is about if the " &environment env"  ends up being optiuonal
2017-12-04T03:10:46Z dmiles: I mean in practice
2017-12-04T03:11:39Z dmiles: i mean treated exactly like an &optional
2017-12-04T03:12:13Z Bike: it's completely different
2017-12-04T03:12:23Z Bike: When you write a macro form, you can't provide an environment
2017-12-04T03:12:40Z Bike: the &environment in the lambda list indicates the compiler should pass the environment
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2017-12-04T03:13:11Z Bike: if you have (defmacro expand-1 (form &environment env) ...), (expand-1 foo) is legal and (expand-1 foo bar) is not.
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2017-12-04T03:13:19Z dmiles: oh so actualy MACROEXPAND and MACROEXPAND-1 would not been able to be macros?
2017-12-04T03:13:43Z Bike: i don't understand the grammar of your question.
2017-12-04T03:14:46Z dmiles: macroexpand is a function... so i was thinking aobut if it was a macro
2017-12-04T03:15:28Z dmiles: (i know i switched topics sorta fast from my original question)
2017-12-04T03:15:46Z Bike: macroexpand having an &optional env is different from a macro having an &environment env. the former allows an environment to be explicitly provided by the programmer. the latter just means that the macroexpander wants to use the environment the macro form is in.
2017-12-04T03:16:06Z dmiles: how would #'macroexpand gain access to a a Env ?
2017-12-04T03:16:14Z dmiles: (if it was "unsupplied)
2017-12-04T03:16:33Z Bike: it doesn't. if you don't supply an environment it uses the global environment.
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2017-12-04T03:18:09Z dmiles: ok.. now it makes more sense
2017-12-04T03:19:53Z dmiles: .. so  (defmarco expand-1  arg  &optional (env env-supplied-p)  &environment env)  might have been used if expand-1 wanted to be like macroexpand-1 ?
2017-12-04T03:20:18Z Bike: your lambda list is kind of garbled.
2017-12-04T03:20:39Z dmiles: oops yes
2017-12-04T03:20:39Z Bike: but if i understand it correctly, no. macroexpand-1 doesn't know about the environment it's called in.
2017-12-04T03:20:59Z Bike: no function knows about the lexical environment it's called from.
2017-12-04T03:22:14Z dmiles: i think that actually does answer a question i was going to ask..
2017-12-04T03:23:52Z dmiles: but the (defmacro my-expand-1  (arg &optional penv  &environment env)  ..  (let ((env-i-use (if penv penv env))) ...  some code using env-i-use ..  )
2017-12-04T03:24:24Z dmiles: oh actualy now i see how what you said sort of answers my question
2017-12-04T03:24:41Z dmiles: the 'env' in this case was not just the global env
2017-12-04T03:24:49Z dmiles: the 'env' in this case was not just the global env?
2017-12-04T03:25:22Z Bike: if you have an &environment parameter, within the body of the macroexpander it will be bound to the environment the macro form is in. Let me give you an example.
2017-12-04T03:25:50Z Bike: say we have (defmacro dumb () 4)
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2017-12-04T03:26:23Z dmiles: (ah,  i had sorta assumed the &environment env  was just so the body would have a convience var named 'env for the global env :P)
2017-12-04T03:26:32Z Bike: that would be pointless.
2017-12-04T03:26:40Z dmiles: (ok go on)
2017-12-04T03:26:48Z Bike: now say we have (defmacro pexpand (form &environment env) (print (macroexpand-1 form env)) nil)
2017-12-04T03:27:02Z Bike: so it always expands into nil, but prints something at macroexpansion time.
2017-12-04T03:27:18Z Bike: if you have (pexpand (dumb)) it prints 4.
2017-12-04T03:27:40Z Bike: But if you have (macrolet ((dumb () 5)) (pexpand (dumb))) it prints 5.
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2017-12-04T03:28:13Z Bike: In contrast, say you have (defmacro dumb-pexpand (form) (print (macroexpand-1 form)) nil)
2017-12-04T03:29:11Z Bike: then (dumb-pexpand (dumb)) => 4, but (macrolet ((dumb () 5)) (dumb-pexpand (dumb)) => 4. Because it doesn't use the local environment, it just uses the global one.
2017-12-04T03:30:15Z dmiles: ah, i see.. it really is about allowing macrolet to have a little highgene
2017-12-04T03:30:25Z dmiles: hygene*
2017-12-04T03:30:42Z Bike: i have no idea what you mean.
2017-12-04T03:31:11Z dmiles: well i was thinking macrolet is scoped in the body it appears
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2017-12-04T03:31:32Z dmiles: but this way it allows it to be used outside and still not be in the global
2017-12-04T03:31:40Z Bike: macrolet establishes a lexical environment with a macro in it.
2017-12-04T03:31:53Z Bike: i don't understand what you're saying.
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2017-12-04T03:33:26Z dmiles:  FLET and MACROLET are scoped in a lexical enviroment.. the way they get decared is locally.. but that would place a limit on where they can be used
2017-12-04T03:33:44Z Bike: a limit?
2017-12-04T03:33:51Z Bike: you can use flet or macrolet wherever.
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2017-12-04T03:34:04Z Bike: you could think of them as "placing limits" on the use of what they define.
2017-12-04T03:34:27Z dmiles: they will be limited to the local enviroment they get defined in
2017-12-04T03:34:53Z Bike: they define/bind things in a lexical scope.
2017-12-04T03:35:19Z Bike: The environment accessible with &environment contains information about these lexical scopes.
2017-12-04T03:35:25Z dmiles: why i call it a limit.. is if you use them within the scope you dont need to think about passing env arround
2017-12-04T03:35:55Z Bike: If macroexpand doesn't receive an environment parameter, it uses the global environment, which has no information about lexical bindings as produced by flet or macrolet.
2017-12-04T03:36:12Z Bike: As such, macroexpanders that need to expand other macros would behave badly if there was no &environment available.
2017-12-04T03:36:44Z dmiles: i might have to set up a testcase in the next couple houirs once i fix my current trouble
2017-12-04T03:37:28Z dmiles: what i was wondering is if other macroexpansions still use just the global enviroment even inside the lexical scope
2017-12-04T03:37:41Z Bike: Other macroexpansions?
2017-12-04T03:38:05Z dmiles: why i need to write it out into a body form :P
2017-12-04T03:38:13Z Bike: I don't understand.
2017-12-04T03:38:52Z dmiles: i9 am saying i doublt i can explain in english.. i'd have to write the code
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2017-12-04T03:39:25Z Bike: Is English not your first language? I have a hard time understanding what you try to convey.
2017-12-04T03:40:05Z dmiles: yes but i have a hard time using english
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2017-12-04T03:42:20Z dmiles: so in about an hour .. i'll try to have the question better layed out
2017-12-04T03:43:21Z Bike: Okay. I might be asleep at that time.
2017-12-04T03:43:50Z dmiles: (the question about if macrolet can define macros that get used inside the same lexical scope but not actualyl defined in the same scope))
2017-12-04T03:44:46Z loke: Perhaps he's asking about macros that expand into other macro calls?
2017-12-04T03:44:53Z Bike: beats me.
2017-12-04T03:44:58Z dmiles: yes that is what i am asking
2017-12-04T03:45:07Z loke: Like (defmacro foo (..) ...) (defmacro bar (...) `(foo ...))
2017-12-04T03:45:38Z Bike: Aren't you writing an interpreter or compiler of some kind, dmiles?
2017-12-04T03:46:12Z loke: dmiles: The answer is that the unexpanded macro is returned from the first macro call. Then the compiler looks at the result of that first macro, and repeats by expanding the second macro.
2017-12-04T03:46:35Z loke: In other words, the recursive macro call isn't expanded by the macro itself.
2017-12-04T03:46:59Z dmiles: Bike: yes.. so i am trying to confirm that wheter or not the macrolet should be invisible to other macros that get called by other macros
2017-12-04T03:47:43Z Bike: Your terminology is confused. Macros are not called.
2017-12-04T03:47:53Z Bike: But, if you're writing an evaluator it's simple enough to explain the rules.
2017-12-04T03:48:27Z Bike: You have (defun eval (form env) ...). The first thing that ... does is macroexpand: just (macroexpand form env). macroexpand repeatedly calls macroexpand-1, as you probably know.
2017-12-04T03:48:38Z dmiles: *nod*
2017-12-04T03:48:52Z dmiles: (go on)
2017-12-04T03:49:16Z Bike: macroexpand-1 is something like (defun macroexpand-1 (form &optional env) (if (consp form) (let ((mf (macro-function (first form) env))) (if mf (funcall *macroexpand-hook* mf form env) ...
2017-12-04T03:50:03Z Bike: In other words, it looks up the macro definition in the environment it's passed, and if it's there, calls macroexpand-hook. macroexpand-hook is basically funcall, so the macroexpander function is called with two arguments, the form to expand, and the environment.
2017-12-04T03:50:18Z Bike: If the definition of the macro had an &environment, that's the environment it gets. if not it's ignored.
2017-12-04T03:51:01Z Bike: Now, if the form passed to eval is a macrolet form, like say (macrolet ((foo ...)) ...body...), all it does is recursively evaluate body in a new environment that includes the definition of foo.
2017-12-04T03:51:41Z Bike: like (defun eval (form env) ... (if (eq (first form) 'macrolet) ... (eval (cddr form) (augment-with-macros (second form) env)) ...
2017-12-04T03:53:08Z dmiles: i am starting to see now
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2017-12-04T03:56:52Z dmiles: i would have assumed that macrolet created a "special macro" with the meaning as "special"   in "special vars" that  as they are being (i'll stick with special vars (forget macros for the moment) as theire bindings are availbel shadowed in the global enviironment)
2017-12-04T03:57:31Z dmiles: i was thinking that macrolet would shadow any of its uses at the same level of its env
2017-12-04T03:57:58Z dmiles: (meaning it would not be usefull tp ass env to subsequent calls.. as the shadow macro would be present)
2017-12-04T03:58:16Z Bike: I don't know what that means but it sounds complicated.
2017-12-04T03:59:04Z dmiles: i dont see this happen hardly wuith macrolet.. but i see it all the time with labels
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2017-12-04T03:59:47Z dmiles: that a defun is overridden in a lexical scope
2017-12-04T03:59:56Z Bike: You can shadow bindings, yes.
2017-12-04T04:00:49Z dmiles: i dont need to pass an environment argument to make things use the right shadow
2017-12-04T04:01:17Z Bike: The environment describes what's present. It includes shadowing.
2017-12-04T04:01:36Z Bike: My earlier pexpand example showed that the environment includes shadow bindings.
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2017-12-04T04:02:41Z dmiles: ahah
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2017-12-04T04:12:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-04T04:17:48Z basket: Good morning, beach
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2017-12-04T04:52:49Z Josh_2: Morning
2017-12-04T04:52:57Z shka: Josh_2: good morning
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2017-12-04T04:55:24Z Josh_2: This is not really lisp related although it is something I did in lisp :P anyways Quicksort has an average performance of O(n log n) and I have a real time of 15ms, how do I check if my sorting algorithm is hitting it's ideal time or not?
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2017-12-04T04:55:52Z Josh_2: There is the point that it is doing more than just sorting so that's going to cause some issues
2017-12-04T04:56:01Z Josh_2: I have a graph that is pretty linear
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2017-12-04T04:56:53Z Zhivago: Have it report the nunmber of interesting operations it did.
2017-12-04T04:56:56Z beach: Josh_2: That is going to be very hard for a single test case.
2017-12-04T04:57:12Z Josh_2: well I have 16 different tests
2017-12-04T04:57:21Z Zhivago: Then you'll be able to see the actual O for that particular input.
2017-12-04T04:57:25Z beach: Josh_2: With different sizes of the input?
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2017-12-04T04:57:37Z Josh_2: No the sizes are the same in all of them
2017-12-04T04:57:47Z beach: Josh_2: Then you can't test it.
2017-12-04T04:58:14Z beach: Josh_2: O(n log n) means that it is less than or equal to k*n*log(n) for some k, but you don't know the k.
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2017-12-04T04:58:57Z beach: Josh_2: So no matter what your timing shows, you can always find a k that makes it true.
2017-12-04T04:59:31Z Josh_2: Ahh okay, well it is always sorting the same number of elements, but the variation in the elements change, causing quicksort to become faster than bucket sort
2017-12-04T05:00:07Z Josh_2: The larger the variation the slower bucket sort becomes
2017-12-04T05:00:12Z beach: Still, it is always going to be on the average O(n log n) for some k, no matter how many inputs you give it.
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2017-12-04T05:00:57Z Josh_2: Alrighty, I'll mention that the average is correct, but that the change in bucketsort is obvious
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2017-12-04T05:01:03Z Josh_2: I have to give a presentation..
2017-12-04T05:02:12Z beach: Mentioning that the average is correct is not going to give any information, because the average is always correct for any finite number of test cases.
2017-12-04T05:02:28Z beach: So you are going to look ignorant if you say that.
2017-12-04T05:03:29Z beach: It would be better to check something like how good the choice of pivot is.
2017-12-04T05:03:37Z Josh_2: Well the spec is asking me to compare the times I got with theoretical times..
2017-12-04T05:03:39Z beach: How close to the median element it is.
2017-12-04T05:03:53Z beach: OK, good luck with that then.
2017-12-04T05:04:09Z beach: Since theoretical times can be arbitrarily high.
2017-12-04T05:04:50Z Josh_2: Well
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2017-12-04T05:05:39Z Josh_2: I already dicked my grade by doing sorting algorithms. My own fault for wasting a load of time because I didn't read the spec properly..
2017-12-04T05:06:00Z Josh_2: It's okay though, I was allowed to use CL <3
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2017-12-04T05:09:39Z beach: Are you sorting a list or a vector?
2017-12-04T05:09:48Z Josh_2: vector
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2017-12-04T07:56:49Z hajovonta: hi all!
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2017-12-04T08:00:44Z cess11_: hajovonta: Hi!
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2017-12-04T10:30:22Z knobo: I'd like to do patternmatching to get the most spesific result. Something like this: https://gist.github.com/knobo/adb1bfaa6756161d39b4f2b35fc89d5b
2017-12-04T10:30:35Z knobo: Maybe I could use optima?
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2017-12-04T10:33:05Z jackdaniel: your snippet doesn't clarify anything to me. to answer the question; optima may be used to do pattern matching from the most specific, if you arrange clauses in correct order (same as with cond really)
2017-12-04T10:36:27Z knobo: I see.
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2017-12-04T12:38:15Z Xach: I thought I would miss lisppaste more, but gist is pretty fine.
2017-12-04T12:39:02Z jdz: There's also lpaste.net.
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2017-12-04T12:49:15Z Xach: likes. sbcl 1.4.2 and new asdf busts some stuff, it seems.
2017-12-04T12:49:19Z Xach: yikes, rather.
2017-12-04T12:49:59Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-04/failure-report/sb-cga.html#sb-cga is key to a number of them - I don't understand it, does anyone else?
2017-12-04T12:51:29Z jdz: ASDF has started issuing warnings about test system definitions that do not follow the ASDF's naming convention?
2017-12-04T12:52:00Z Xach: that's part of the fun
2017-12-04T12:52:06Z Xach: i do not like it very much, but it is not fatal
2017-12-04T12:53:34Z Xach: i'm guessing something to do with madeira-port's customization of asdf
2017-12-04T12:54:32Z jdz: I would also guess that SBCL should not be compiling a "CCL port".
2017-12-04T12:55:00Z Xach: madeira-port manages that with feature expressions
2017-12-04T12:55:09Z Xach: it's a meta-project for asdf system definitions
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2017-12-04T12:56:52Z jdz: Xach: is that "madeira-port" system?
2017-12-04T12:57:04Z jdz: It loads just fine for me with SBCL-1.4.2.9
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2017-12-04T12:57:30Z Xach: jdz: sb-cga makes use of madeira-port in a way that seems to fail for me. can you load sb-cga?
2017-12-04T12:58:11Z jdz: Yep, getting the same error.
2017-12-04T12:58:14Z Xach: Ok.
2017-12-04T12:58:36Z jdz: It's a failed assertion.
2017-12-04T12:58:48Z jdz: Well, you probably already know that.
2017-12-04T13:00:21Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-04/failure-report/array-operations.html#array-operations also looks like a new sbcl-related problem
2017-12-04T13:00:57Z Xach: and tpapp just announced no more lisp for him, too
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2017-12-04T13:02:04Z jdz: tpapp?
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2017-12-04T13:02:39Z Xach: tamas k. papp
2017-12-04T13:02:46Z Xach: he switched to julia or something
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2017-12-04T13:05:31Z jdz: I can load array-operations, though.
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2017-12-04T13:06:24Z jdz: The problem with sb-cga could be due to madeira-port not being up-to-date with a recent ASDF.
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2017-12-04T13:06:48Z Xach: jdz: array-operations is a warning, so you will get a failure if you use :verbose t
2017-12-04T13:07:41Z jdz: Loads successfully (with warnings) even with :verbose t.
2017-12-04T13:08:07Z Xach: jdz: i think sbcl 1.4.2.9 has the fix already, actually
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2017-12-04T13:12:35Z jdz: Yes, the problem with array-operations seems to be unrelated to the ASDF problem.
2017-12-04T13:18:44Z jdz: And yes, array-operations on GitHub has an "abandoned" badge since Oct 29 (the only commmit in over 4 years).
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2017-12-04T13:20:17Z jackdaniel: is it a popular dependency?
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2017-12-04T13:21:14Z paule32: hello
2017-12-04T13:21:30Z paule32: i working on string's
2017-12-04T13:21:55Z paule32: and i would like know, how translators works
2017-12-04T13:22:08Z paule32: i know/read there a hash tables
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2017-12-04T13:22:30Z paule32: but how to build up, and look into?
2017-12-04T13:22:35Z paule32: as example
2017-12-04T13:23:11Z paule32: "you" -> translated into german "ich, du, er, sie, es"
2017-12-04T13:23:25Z paule32: "how" -> transl. german: "wie"
2017-12-04T13:23:41Z paule32: "are" -> transl. german: "wie"
2017-12-04T13:24:10Z paule32: "how are you": -> transl. german: "wie geht es dir"
2017-12-04T13:24:29Z jdz: General AI is not part of Common Lisp.
2017-12-04T13:25:08Z paule32: have i todo provide a list of word/words for each sentence?
2017-12-04T13:25:50Z jdz: (setf (gethash "you" *word-table*) '("ich" "du" "er" "sie" "es"))
2017-12-04T13:26:16Z jackdaniel: check out library `translate`
2017-12-04T13:26:24Z jackdaniel: it's in quicklisp and is really small
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2017-12-04T13:59:40Z chenbing: hi ,is jess a full subset language of lisp? especially of common lisp
2017-12-04T14:02:14Z jackdaniel: what is jess?
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2017-12-04T14:02:45Z chenbing: http://herzberg.ca.sandia.gov/
2017-12-04T14:03:24Z chenbing: jess is a rule engine for java platform and it has lisp features
2017-12-04T14:04:19Z jdz: How does "has lisp features" relate to "a full subset of common lisp"?
2017-12-04T14:04:21Z jackdaniel: I don't see any lisp reference at first glance (not to mention common lisp)
2017-12-04T14:04:32Z jackdaniel: I highly doubt it is CL subset
2017-12-04T14:05:02Z jdz: Well, it's not too hard to be a subset of CL.
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2017-12-04T14:05:15Z jackdaniel: true that
2017-12-04T14:05:38Z jackdaniel: but that would impose, that you can run jess programs in CL
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2017-12-04T14:06:45Z jackdaniel: and since it introduces some rule operators, they would have to be implemented in this subset as well. if they are implemented in (say) Java, then valid program in Jess may simply not work on conforming CL implementation (unless you re-implement Jess in CL)
2017-12-04T14:07:32Z jdz: Pretty sure (call java.lang.Thread sleep 100) (from FAQ) is not a subset of CL .
2017-12-04T14:07:57Z chenbing: it just can runing in jvm
2017-12-04T14:08:24Z chenbing: call java api is a huge plus
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2017-12-04T14:08:53Z jackdaniel: yes, my point is that if it roots in java in it's core functionality, then it is not subset of CL
2017-12-04T14:09:20Z chenbing: yes i should be more serious
2017-12-04T14:09:36Z chenbing: after some my due dilligence
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2017-12-04T14:10:18Z _death: in my view calling java api is a huge minus
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2017-12-04T14:11:20Z chenbing: haha :-)
2017-12-04T14:16:57Z pjb: If it ran in abcl, it could be a subset of CL and you could still call java api.
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2017-12-04T14:18:42Z Bike: superset of a subset of lisp, as they say
2017-12-04T14:22:43Z chenbing: yeah I ran out of lisp a long time , it's time for me to back
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2017-12-04T14:29:01Z paule32: (defparameter *word-table* (make-hash-table))
2017-12-04T14:29:17Z paule32: (setf (gethash "you" *word-table*) '("ich" "du" "er" "sie" "es"))
2017-12-04T14:29:22Z paule32: brings me error
2017-12-04T14:30:40Z paule32: (print (gethash "you" *word-table"))
2017-12-04T14:31:38Z whoman: what error.
2017-12-04T14:31:41Z pjb: WHAT error?
2017-12-04T14:32:23Z pjb: paule32: (there's not a lot of syntax in lisp, but there's still some syntax, and syntax matters!)
2017-12-04T14:32:48Z Bike: ask yourselves: do you really need more of this in your lives?
2017-12-04T14:32:59Z pjb: Good question.
2017-12-04T14:33:19Z paule32: end of file on #<SB-INT:FORM-TRACKING-STREAM for "file /home/jens/Projekte/ai/test/kallup.lisp" {1004A40C53}>
2017-12-04T14:33:19Z paule32:  (in form starting at line: 286, column: 0, position: 7307)
2017-12-04T14:33:19Z Bike: maybe paule32 can find a nice community somewhere that uses a language they can understand and react to, rather than hanging out here for a year and still not knowing what an error is
2017-12-04T14:33:42Z Bike: it's *word-table*. you wrote *word-table"
2017-12-04T14:33:47Z pjb: Well, there's #clnoobs
2017-12-04T14:33:58Z Bike: but it won't work as you want anyway because the hash table uses an eql test
2017-12-04T14:34:47Z pjb: paule32: could read clhs make-hash-table and notice that it's possible to use another test…  But this may be over his IQ level.
2017-12-04T14:36:02Z whoman: sigh. humans can live in any conditions as long as we get used to it. Bike  is very right we should be mindful. it doesnt pay anyone else to be strong, so we dont need to prove we can deal with things that arent even necessary. i do that often, i am very stubborn and lone wolf style. =P
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2017-12-04T14:36:48Z whoman: i can hardly understand clhs and ive done quite a few science thesis papers =p
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2017-12-04T14:37:22Z whoman: not that i am smart. but clhs has quite an expectation
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2017-12-04T14:39:04Z whoman: oh i only feel smart when i am programming actually.. the rest of life is mostly  thumbs down.
2017-12-04T14:39:52Z chenbing: every time in this chatroom I became humble
2017-12-04T14:40:31Z Bike: it's not about intelligence, it's about communication. specifically, none of us are able to communicate with paule32.
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2017-12-04T14:41:05Z chenbing: paste code in pasting website is better style
2017-12-04T14:41:47Z jackdaniel: that's not it. we understand him, he just doesn't understand us (nor listens to advices)
2017-12-04T14:42:16Z jackdaniel: so trying to help him seems mundane and wasted effort after a few tries
2017-12-04T14:42:44Z paule32: don't be so hard
2017-12-04T14:43:02Z pjb: paule32: so can you make the link between the error message and the error?
2017-12-04T14:43:14Z paule32: i fix it
2017-12-04T14:43:21Z paule32: it was an typo
2017-12-04T14:43:24Z pjb: paule32: good.  What about this error message: (print (gethash "you" *word-table")) #| ERROR: Unexpected end of file on #<string-input-stream  :closed #x302003D7ECED> |#
2017-12-04T14:43:30Z pjb: paule32: would you say it's clearer?
2017-12-04T14:44:01Z paule32: yes, lisp is wise
2017-12-04T14:44:05Z pjb: paule32: or what about: *** - READ: input stream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> ends within a string ?
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2017-12-04T14:44:30Z pjb: paule32: the point here is that different implementations have different error messages, and some may be friendlier and more understandable than others.
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2017-12-04T14:44:58Z pjb: paule32: what about: *** - READ: Eingabestream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> endet innerhalb eines Strings.
2017-12-04T14:45:00Z ecraven: why is most of the code for the MIT CADR uppercased? wouldn't it have been easier to read if converted to lowercase?
2017-12-04T14:45:10Z pjb: paule32: Would you say it's the clearest error message of all?
2017-12-04T14:45:18Z paule32: why is it so hard? noone can support development with easier messages?
2017-12-04T14:45:23Z pjb: ecraven: because printers and punched cards didn't have lowercase.
2017-12-04T14:45:32Z pjb: paule32: what about: *** - READ: Eingabestream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> endet innerhalb eines Strings.
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2017-12-04T14:45:37Z pjb: paule32: Would you say it's the clearest error message of all?
2017-12-04T14:45:45Z paule32: it's missing "
2017-12-04T14:45:53Z paule32: strings begin, and end with "
2017-12-04T14:46:09Z paule32: i know
2017-12-04T14:46:15Z pjb: paule32: in lisp, strings can be multiline!
2017-12-04T14:46:25Z pjb: paule32: so there's no error, until you reach the end of the file.
2017-12-04T14:46:44Z pjb: paule32: if you prefer the later error message, then you should use clisp -Lgerman
2017-12-04T14:46:51Z paule32: the problem is, sometimes, i spent my time under terminal consoles text based, and sometimes under gui - where you can get eye cancer
2017-12-04T14:46:57Z pjb: paule32: but since this is something I told you to do last year, we don't have any hope.
2017-12-04T14:47:07Z paule32: like other, with C++ \
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2017-12-04T14:48:24Z whoman: tie yourself in a bag and roll off the docks -- like houdini, life is at stake -- you will find the way if the pressure is high enough. otherwise why get in the bag ?
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2017-12-04T14:49:17Z paule32: cewl
2017-12-04T14:49:42Z ecraven: pjb: but all the docstrings are properly cased, so it can't be for printing. did the MIT CADR actually use a card reader?
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2017-12-04T14:51:14Z warweasle: I'm sure someone else has mentioned it, but hackaday had a lisp article: https://hackaday.com/2017/12/02/lisp-in-200-lines/
2017-12-04T14:51:15Z pjb: ecraven: oh right, the MIT CADR was post punch-card…
2017-12-04T14:51:56Z ecraven: it might just be tradition, no deeper reason :-/ I find it harder to read than mixed or lower-case
2017-12-04T14:52:05Z pjb: ecraven: I would say it depend on the terminals they hard. Not all the early terminals (the first virtual teletypes) had lowercase, since teletypes had only uppercase.
2017-12-04T14:52:36Z pjb: ecraven: happily, you can use my downcase-lisp and downcase-lisp-region emacs commands.
2017-12-04T14:52:40Z ecraven: well, the actual *interface* (at least judging from running it with the usim simulator) supported lower-case characters alright
2017-12-04T14:53:30Z pjb: ecraven: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-sources.el#L410
2017-12-04T14:54:04Z ecraven: pjb: thanks! that'll come in handy ;)
2017-12-04T14:54:11Z pjb: ecraven: even the Apple ][ only had uppercase!
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2017-12-04T14:55:39Z ecraven: yea, but the user interface of the CADR definitely supported lower case, so I'm just wondering why it's only used in the docstrings, not in the actual source code
2017-12-04T14:55:50Z pjb: Even the ][+ didn't have lower case yet!
2017-12-04T14:56:07Z pjb: https://apple2history.org/history/ah06/
2017-12-04T14:56:40Z ecraven: yea, but that's a consumer device and cost a lot less
2017-12-04T14:56:45Z pjb: you had to wait for 1981 to get lowercase!
2017-12-04T14:57:43Z pjb: Well, I would say that, plus we used to love uppercase.  It gave a very computery style!
2017-12-04T14:58:21Z pjb: It's only those millenium youngster babygirls who can't stand uppercase, and who believe they're yelled at, which is not the case at all.
2017-12-04T14:58:45Z pjb: M-x caps-mode !
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2017-12-04T14:59:52Z ecraven: hehe, I have fond memories of the C64, I don't remember there being a lower-case in the BASIC interpreter there either
2017-12-04T14:59:56Z ecraven: and that was way after 1981
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2017-12-04T15:01:10Z jdz: ZX Spectrum Basic was also all uppercase.
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2017-12-04T15:01:52Z jdz: It also had a structure editor.
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2017-12-04T15:01:58Z chenbing: memory is miracle
2017-12-04T15:02:06Z varjag: a keyword editor
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2017-12-04T15:02:43Z chenbing: thank god
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2017-12-04T15:23:47Z whoman: sbcl is always yelling at me
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2017-12-04T15:59:44Z borodust: Xach: do you use macos in retina mode?
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2017-12-04T16:06:13Z pjb: With their dumb names, imagine the confusion when Apple will release an iRetina computer…
2017-12-04T16:07:18Z borodust: Xach: or, oh well, with retina display?
2017-12-04T16:07:40Z jackdaniel: I plan to make a company, which will prepend "ur" before product names
2017-12-04T16:07:53Z jdz: I use macOS and Linux laptops, bot with >200dpi.
2017-12-04T16:07:54Z jackdaniel: so it will be urRetina, urPhone etc ;)
2017-12-04T16:08:16Z XachX: borodust: yes
2017-12-04T16:08:26Z borodust: XachX: understood, thank you
2017-12-04T16:09:11Z borodust: XachX: i'm starting to think that coudl be the source of the issue (so far that's the only difference between machines that has the bug and the ones that doesn't)
2017-12-04T16:09:21Z borodust: D:
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2017-12-04T17:37:15Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-12-04T20:32:49Z Xach announces the new Quicklisp, download stats
2017-12-04T20:34:28Z eudoxia: Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/ appears to be down for that reason?
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2017-12-04T20:35:00Z Xach: eudoxia: it doesn't appear down to me - what symptoms of down-ness do you get?
2017-12-04T20:35:17Z eudoxia: just "Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at blog.quicklisp.org."
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2017-12-04T20:35:24Z Xach: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/blog.quicklisp.org
2017-12-04T20:35:48Z Xach: Maybe it's trying https?
2017-12-04T20:35:51Z eudoxia: ping 15s -> no packets
2017-12-04T20:35:59Z Xach: it's hosted on blogger, and doesn't use SSL.
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2017-12-04T20:36:03Z Bike: works for me.
2017-12-04T20:36:20Z eudoxia: how strange
2017-12-04T20:36:26Z eudoxia: maybe it's the corporate proxy
2017-12-04T20:36:40Z phoe: works for me
2017-12-04T20:36:45Z Bike: quicklisp blocked for pornographic content
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2017-12-04T20:36:49Z eudoxia: huh, I can connect on my phone
2017-12-04T20:37:01Z Xach: Bike: boo
2017-12-04T20:37:15Z eudoxia: nevermind folks it's probably just the corporate proxy or isp
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2017-12-04T20:39:57Z Xach: Hmm, my host doesn't support SSL for custom domain blogs. Boo.
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2017-12-04T20:41:00Z eudoxia needs to migrate his blag off GitHub Pages to set up proper SSL
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2017-12-04T21:17:12Z oleo: who uses clinch:*blah*  to name stuff baaaa
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2017-12-04T21:17:33Z oleo: i turned themall into clinch/*blah* etc
2017-12-04T21:17:59Z oleo: and still some of the stuff does not work as expected....
2017-12-04T21:18:42Z drmeister: How do people use (defsystem ... :build-operation asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op ...)?
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2017-12-04T21:19:31Z drmeister: I'd like to use it like a regular asdf system where if the monolithic bundle doesn't exist - then it's built and if it does exist - then it is loaded - is that possible>
2017-12-04T21:19:32Z drmeister: ?
2017-12-04T21:20:09Z Xach: drmeister: the folks i know who use monolithic-bundle-op use it as an op at runtime, not in the definition
2017-12-04T21:20:19Z Xach: and for them it's to elide asdf entirely from the end product
2017-12-04T21:20:38Z drmeister: I see - that is actually a more attractive idea.
2017-12-04T21:21:19Z drmeister: How do they work with the product?  Do they set :build-pathname to where they want it installed?
2017-12-04T21:22:04Z Xach: drmeister: no, the monolithic-bundle-op produces a number of monofasls, and a later script is called that loads all those monofasls and saves an image, iirc.
2017-12-04T21:22:20Z Xach: the script is a simple loader, does not involve asdf, hardcodes paths to the monofasl output
2017-12-04T21:22:41Z Xach: then the deliverable is a binary thing that is a saved image built from that script, iirc
2017-12-04T21:23:27Z drmeister: I think it works a little differently in ECL and Clasp - because they can't save an image.   My recollection (a few weeks ago I implemented this) was that it generates a lot of object files and links them into a single library.
2017-12-04T21:23:36Z Xach: ah
2017-12-04T21:25:01Z drmeister: Ok, so I see that I'm in new territory with a new implementation of an uncommonly used feature.
2017-12-04T21:26:04Z jackdaniel: in ecl monolithic-bundle-op produces either executable or a shared object (disguised as fasb which may be loaded) which are constructed indeed from many *.o files
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2017-12-04T21:26:32Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Thank you for that confirmation.
2017-12-04T21:26:36Z jackdaniel: which are results of calling (compile-file "foo.lisp" :system t) ; (or something very similar) by a higher level interface
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2017-12-04T21:27:04Z Shinmera: drmeister: I use monolithic-concatenate-source-op to create a single lisp file of some systems that can just be loaded standalone.
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2017-12-04T21:27:18Z Shinmera: But I don't know what exactly you want to do
2017-12-04T21:27:22Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Do you use monolithic-bundle-op - if so - how do you direct where the output goes?
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2017-12-04T21:27:46Z jackdaniel: drmeister: I use asdf:make-build and :move-here argument
2017-12-04T21:27:53Z jackdaniel: it is documented in ECL manual
2017-12-04T21:27:58Z drmeister: I want to bundle up a bunch of ASDF systems into a single library and load that when Clasp starts up to minimize startup time.
2017-12-04T21:28:09Z jackdaniel: Fare wasn't very fond of this interface
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2017-12-04T21:28:59Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I've probably asked this a dozen times - ECL cannot create images - correct?
2017-12-04T21:29:30Z drmeister: We are having some trouble optimizing things because of how Clasp starts up and builds itself - I've always thought that ECL had the same issues.
2017-12-04T21:29:40Z jackdaniel: it can't *but* it's not impossible. GCL has save-lisp-and-die function and it has common roots as ECL
2017-12-04T21:30:07Z jackdaniel: afair it uses same function which was removed from glibc a while ago (which was used also by emacs), but I'm not sure about that
2017-12-04T21:30:23Z jackdaniel: regarding faster load, bundling systems into fasb indeed improves things
2017-12-04T21:30:31Z jackdaniel: because you simply dlopen them, and that is fast
2017-12-04T21:31:16Z jackdaniel: (internally of course, don't force people to use dlopen - (load "foo.fasb") should do)
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2017-12-04T21:31:29Z drmeister: What about starting up an ECL system?  Clasp evaluates every top level form in order of how they were COMPILE-FILE'd - does ECL do that?
2017-12-04T21:32:26Z jackdaniel: in ECL you have libecl.so (which is *the* implementation) and ecl binary, which opens it. additionally in /usr/lib/ecl-xx/ you have fas files, which may be loaded (or required), which are also libraries
2017-12-04T21:32:45Z jackdaniel: so there is no compilation at start
2017-12-04T21:32:56Z jackdaniel: you just open bunch of shared objects
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2017-12-04T21:33:05Z jackdaniel: asdf for instance
2017-12-04T21:33:38Z jackdaniel: that is a very fine quality imo, that you can compile arbitrary system into a shared library (which could be used from other languages)
2017-12-04T21:33:49Z drmeister: Right - there is no compilation in Clasp except for fastgf has forced it on us until I can figure out how to get around it.
2017-12-04T21:34:44Z drmeister: I'll say that a bit more clearly:   there is no compilation at startup in Clasp either, except for fastgf.
2017-12-04T21:35:47Z drmeister: But for instance.  Every DEFUN that is compile-file'd leaves code in the fasl so that at startup the DEFUN code is evaluated to bind the each function to its symbol.
2017-12-04T21:35:59Z jackdaniel: ECL doesn't evaluate top-level forms at startup, it has vv internal structure which may be used to populate side effects though
2017-12-04T21:36:15Z drmeister: What is "vv internal structure"?
2017-12-04T21:36:33Z jackdaniel: I'm not able to describe details, it's complex and I don't understand it very well
2017-12-04T21:37:06Z Bike: sounds interesting. where is that in the source?
2017-12-04T21:38:02Z drmeister: What does a fasl file do at load time then?  Does it somehow bind the final symbol value slots and function slots, classes and other system configuration info?
2017-12-04T21:38:03Z jackdaniel: it is scattered in src/cmp/
2017-12-04T21:38:11Z Bike: ah, naturally
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2017-12-04T21:39:46Z jackdaniel: drmeister: I don't remember. I have debugged this code and fixed some issues, but there are too many details to remember
2017-12-04T21:40:15Z jackdaniel: beauty of inherited code ;)
2017-12-04T21:40:21Z drmeister: That's ok - thanks.
2017-12-04T21:40:32Z drmeister: The beauty of inherited code that works.
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2017-12-04T21:41:10Z jackdaniel: any good recipes how to throw away being shy and record McCLIM video at instant? :)
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2017-12-04T21:42:40Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Is there a way to get  quicklisp in ECL to save the intermediate C files when it builds systems?
2017-12-04T21:43:16Z drmeister: pwd
2017-12-04T21:43:19Z drmeister: Whoops
2017-12-04T21:43:54Z jackdaniel: yes, you have to (ext:install-c-compiler) and set c::*delete-files* (name may be a little different) to nil
2017-12-04T21:44:24Z jackdaniel: useful for debugging
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2017-12-04T21:45:12Z jackdaniel: each file when compiled has 3 files associated: c, h and data
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2017-12-04T21:45:21Z jackdaniel: the last one contains vv data
2017-12-04T21:45:53Z jackdaniel: (which may be empty of course, if there is nothing interesting there)
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2017-12-04T21:52:46Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Does ECL do much inlining?
2017-12-04T21:53:08Z jackdaniel: I didn't count. it does some
2017-12-04T21:53:20Z jackdaniel: cmpinline may have some hints
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2017-12-04T23:11:44Z phoe: There was a somewhat recent blogpost on SBCL's type inference and such, I remember an example about integers. Does anyone have a link anywhere handy?
2017-12-04T23:12:23Z larsen: I'm facing a problems using a couple of packages because package A's nickname clashes with the name of package B. what's the practice in such cases?
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2017-12-04T23:12:54Z larsen: s/blems/blem/
2017-12-04T23:12:57Z phoe: larsen: bt?
2017-12-04T23:13:17Z phoe: or another nickname?
2017-12-04T23:13:32Z larsen: mmm, sorry, what does bt mean?
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2017-12-04T23:14:36Z phoe: bordeaux-threads
2017-12-04T23:14:45Z phoe: one of the most often clashing packages, considering binary-types
2017-12-04T23:14:51Z phoe: both have the bt nickname.
2017-12-04T23:14:55Z larsen: (in general, I'm puzzled because IMHO defining a nickname should be a choice of the user, not of the author of the package)
2017-12-04T23:15:08Z phoe: larsen: which packages are giving you the issue?
2017-12-04T23:15:20Z larsen: ah ok, no. it's another couple of packages. cl-flow (nickname flow) and flow
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2017-12-04T23:15:34Z phoe: are they both on quicklisp?
2017-12-04T23:15:51Z larsen: I don't know, let me check
2017-12-04T23:16:10Z phoe: you could nonetheless file an issue on https://github.com/borodust/cl-flow/blob/master/packages.lisp#L5
2017-12-04T23:16:13Z phoe: borodust: ^
2017-12-04T23:16:47Z larsen: harmony (which is the main system loading flow) is on quicklisp
2017-12-04T23:16:57Z larsen: ok. I'll do
2017-12-04T23:17:26Z larsen: I reckon there's no general technique to amend this error on my side
2017-12-04T23:17:31Z phoe: larsen: the general way is RENAME-PACKAGE to remove the conflict manually, but that's a destructive operation.
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2017-12-04T23:17:46Z phoe: like, you're modifying the nickname for your whole Lisp image.
2017-12-04T23:18:04Z phoe: you can keep the name and just remove the nicknames this way.
2017-12-04T23:18:16Z mfiano: phoe: gl is used by 3 packages if i recall correctly
2017-12-04T23:18:58Z larsen: ok. I found rename-package but it was not clear to me *when* I was supposed to call it, because so far I only have a set of dependencies in the .asd file for my system
2017-12-04T23:19:16Z larsen: anyway, I'll open that issue. thank you
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2017-12-04T23:53:05Z jasom: would this be a valid loop: (loop while (< foo limit) sum (bar) into foo)
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2017-12-04T23:59:47Z phoe: why not
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2017-12-04T23:59:56Z phoe: hm, wait a second though
2017-12-05T00:00:03Z phoe: is FOO defined early enough?
2017-12-05T00:00:24Z jasom: I haven't found an implementation that *doesn't* like it, and it seems correct with my first reading of the spec
2017-12-05T00:00:50Z phoe: also FOO isn't returned, but that's a detail
2017-12-05T00:01:00Z jasom: it's fine to not return foo
2017-12-05T00:01:15Z phoe: good
2017-12-05T00:01:31Z phoe: I think it's valid, AFAIK the variables are first collected and bound, and only then computation progresses
2017-12-05T00:01:33Z Bike: "The var argument is bound as if by the construct with to a zero of the appropriate type."
2017-12-05T00:01:37Z Bike: seems okay to me.
2017-12-05T00:01:43Z phoe: s/computation/loop
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2017-12-05T01:02:16Z aeth: Why does clx have a separate opengl?
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2017-12-05T01:10:09Z Xach: separate from what?
2017-12-05T01:11:30Z aeth: There's https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/extensions/gl.lisp and there's https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/
2017-12-05T01:12:50Z Xach: clx's predates cl-opengl by a long long long long time.
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2017-12-05T01:15:04Z aeth: Is there anything that stops a CL X client from using cl-opengl? It looks like there's something called DRI that bypasses the X server. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Infrastructure
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2017-12-05T01:16:07Z aeth: Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like it might be possible to write a pure CL 3D application for Linux except for OpenGL (and sound?) by writing an X client.
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2017-12-05T01:17:09Z aeth: Unless cl-opengl for some reason requires xlib...
2017-12-05T01:18:08Z aeth: The Windows backend would still have to use more foreign code, either directly or through something like cl-sdl2.
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2017-12-05T01:30:48Z aeth: I'm starting to think that the only way I can get the level of control I want for my game engine is to either write my own X client or write my own wrapper to xlib and then keep the cl-sdl2 backend for Windows until I eventually replace it with something built on the Windows API directly.
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2017-12-05T01:37:47Z emaczen: how can I capture #'time output into a string?
2017-12-05T01:38:48Z aeth: rebind its output temporarily.
2017-12-05T01:39:07Z aeth: I was going to say *standard-output* but it's actually *trace-output*, apparently
2017-12-05T01:39:32Z pfdietz_: Time prints to a stream, so with-output-to-string lets you bind the appropriate stream variable to a string-stream, then return the string.
2017-12-05T01:39:37Z aeth: (with-output-to-string (string-stream) (let ((*trace-output* string-stream)) (time (+ 1 2))))
2017-12-05T01:39:59Z Bike: why do you want to do that?
2017-12-05T01:40:01Z pfdietz_: Or just (with-output-to-string (*trace-output*) ...)
2017-12-05T01:40:01Z emaczen: aeth: I was looking for *trace-output* -- I literally tried all streams except that one!
2017-12-05T01:40:11Z pfdietz_: CLHS
2017-12-05T01:40:15Z emaczen: pfdietz_: Yep that's what I've been doing
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2017-12-05T01:40:20Z pfdietz_: CLHS: time
2017-12-05T01:40:20Z aeth: The hyperspec says trace output. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm
2017-12-05T01:42:25Z pfdietz_: Using get-internal-run-time might be more useful.
2017-12-05T01:44:58Z aeth: Generally, for timing you want this (* (/ internal-time-units-per-second) (get-internal-real-time)) unless its precision is too low (then you might need a foreign library? strange how its precision in SBCL is lower than SBCL's time precision)
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2017-12-05T01:46:33Z aeth: Except you probably don't want rational, so you probably want to define a constant that's e.g. (coerce (/ internal-time-units per-second) 'double-float) because otherwise SBCL will complain (at max optimization level) that it can't really optimize it.
2017-12-05T01:46:54Z aeth: and if SBCL can't, they all probably can't
2017-12-05T01:47:45Z aeth: double-float will almost certainly cons under normal circumstances, which could affect your timing. One way to avoid this that might work on some implementations (it works in SBCL) is to work with double-floats stored to arrays of :element-type double-float.
2017-12-05T01:49:26Z aeth: e.g. (defconstant +seconds-per-time-unit+ (coerce (/ internal-time-units-per-second) 'double-float)) (declaim (inline %current-second)) (defun %current-second () "Converts internal CL time to a double-float second." (* (get-internal-real-time) +seconds-per-time-unit+))
2017-12-05T01:50:02Z aeth: You'll want to inline that function because (1) it's trivial arithmetic that should never change and (2) otherwise you'll allocate a double-float when you can avoid that by setting to double-float arrays
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2017-12-05T01:52:37Z aeth: #'%current-second will appear to cons if you disassemble it, but if you use it in a setf to an array of :element-type 'double-float it should potentially be non-consing, depending on if the implementation is that advanced. SBCL handles it afaik.
2017-12-05T01:54:12Z aeth: You can define a struct that's really just a vector if you want to have a higher level interface above the array, e.g. (defstruct (times (:type (vector double-float)) (:conc-name nil)) (current-time 0d0 :type double-float) ...) and make sure to always setf values of that struct with no non-constant intermediate doubles.
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2017-12-05T02:03:48Z aeth: This portable code should be non-consing in SBCL for a time struct of 3 values: (defun time-diff (times) (declare ((simple-array double-float (3)) times) (optimize (speed 3))) (setf (new-time times) (%current-second) (time-diff times) (- (new-time times) (current-time times)) (current-time times) (new-time times)) times)
2017-12-05T02:04:21Z aeth: This assumes current-time has already been set to the current time.
2017-12-05T02:05:08Z aeth: I probably could have said this in far fewer IRC lines if Lisp paste was still up.
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2017-12-05T02:10:12Z pfdietz_: Or use single floats, which I believe in SBCL 64 bit are non-consing.
2017-12-05T02:10:58Z aeth: single-floats should be non-consing in most if not all 64 bit implementations, but it afaik depends on the time interval you're working with. If you do a short non-consing workaround and then coerce the end result to 'single-float, if you're careful, you shouldn't cons anywhere along the line
2017-12-05T02:11:13Z aeth: double-floats will definitely work for more time intervals
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2017-12-05T02:13:46Z aeth: oh oops, I used the name time-diff twice
2017-12-05T02:14:54Z aeth: The custom function should be update-time-diff and then you can add one more function to get the single-float value, which won't cons: (defun time-diff-to-single (times) (declare ((simple-array double-float (3)) times) (optimize (speed 3))) (coerce (time-diff times) 'single-float))
2017-12-05T02:17:29Z aeth: I use something very similar and I just tested these in the REPL and they should be non-consing in SBCL. (Other implementations might cons, but if they do, someone should probably submit a patch. The hardest one to patch would be CLISP because it doesn't even have double-float arrays.)
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2017-12-05T02:27:13Z aeth: Something like this: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1687407
2017-12-05T02:28:30Z aeth: and it should match the first line of SBCL's time, that says e.g. "3.610 seconds of real time"
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2017-12-05T02:42:37Z aeth: It doesn't appear to cons in the disassemblies. It does appear to cons slightly when I run it repeatedly in sb-profile:profile, but I think that that's the struct itself. (declare (dynamic-extent ...)) might even be able to get rid of that. (room) doesn't show up any double-floats so it's probably good enough in SBCL. I'm not sure how I could profile other implementations to check.
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2017-12-05T02:43:46Z aeth: oooh, can't stack allocate it.
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2017-12-05T03:34:31Z drmeister: I'm using ASDF to build a monolithic fasl file for several systems that have dependencies between them.
2017-12-05T03:34:43Z drmeister: I wrote this file:   build-cando.lisp
2017-12-05T03:34:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lGOiheeE/
2017-12-05T03:35:20Z drmeister: It uses (asdf:load-asd ...) for every dot-asd file that is part of the final monolithic bundle
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2017-12-05T03:35:27Z drmeister: The system looks like this
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2017-12-05T03:36:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nk4pEhUq/
2017-12-05T03:36:24Z drmeister: That's the build-cando.asd file.
2017-12-05T03:36:46Z drmeister: To build this I load the first file and then use (asdf:make :build-cando)
2017-12-05T03:37:06Z drmeister: If anyone has recommendations on better ways to do this - I'd love to hear them.
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2017-12-05T05:10:12Z mfiano: How do I correctly specify the test/key of PUSHNEW for pushing conses of 2 symbols?
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2017-12-05T05:33:09Z pjb: mfiano: (pushnew k l :test (function equal))   (equal '(a . b) '(a . b)) #| --> t |#
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2017-12-05T05:41:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bx93PDE4/
2017-12-05T05:42:37Z drmeister: If the package :energy does not exist (find-package :energy) -> NIL   then the system should signal a package-error - correct?
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2017-12-05T05:43:35Z drmeister: ECL and Clasp give the unhelpful error:   There exists no package with name NIL
2017-12-05T05:49:37Z drmeister: SBCL gives a more helpful error - I will copy it.
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2017-12-05T06:09:02Z pjb: drmeister: yes, a package-error.
2017-12-05T06:09:25Z pjb: drmeister: defpackage forms cannot include circular dependencies. For this you have to use run-time package functions.
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2017-12-05T06:21:55Z drmeister: Thank you.
2017-12-05T06:23:13Z drmeister: Monolithic ASDF builds for the win - I can package up all of the cando Common Lisp source code along with cl-jupyter, cl-jupyter-widgets and nglview (for viewing molecules) into a single fasl file.
2017-12-05T06:24:31Z drmeister: It loads much faster than loading quicklisp systems at startup.
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2017-12-05T06:49:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-05T06:52:34Z loke: Beach!
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2017-12-05T06:58:46Z jack_rabbit: 'morning.
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2017-12-05T07:12:19Z shka: beach: good morning!
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2017-12-05T07:26:19Z borodust: phoe larsen: that's unfortunate, but no :) i forged the API before Shinmera's :flow was introduced: naming is so hard, i don't feel like redoing all the name-fiddling again :/. More details in the issue comment.
2017-12-05T07:30:19Z borodust: phoe larsen: thank you nevertheless! :)
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2017-12-05T07:38:24Z phoe: borodust: got it, thanks!
2017-12-05T07:42:17Z borodust: obviously, i'm the only one to blame for not pushing :cl-flow to quicklisp, but at the time i didn't feel like it was complete enough
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2017-12-05T07:48:22Z Shinmera: Search-replace flow: => cl-flow: and remove the nickname.
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2017-12-05T07:59:00Z borodust: Shinmera: nope, this nicknames is introduced exactly for the reason to have sound full symbol names
2017-12-05T07:59:07Z borodust: s/nicknames/nickname/
2017-12-05T07:59:35Z borodust: flow:concurrently, flow:atomically and so on
2017-12-05T08:00:25Z Shinmera: I don't see the difference to just cl-flow:concurrently
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2017-12-05T08:02:25Z borodust: ok
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2017-12-05T08:08:16Z larsen: borodust: ok, thanks for the update
2017-12-05T08:10:27Z larsen: yesterday night I was commenting on the general idea of nicknames defined by package authors. it seems to me a bad idea in general: wouldn't they serve the same purpose if it was the user assigning them when a package is used ?
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2017-12-05T08:11:38Z borodust: larsen: to be fair, this nicknames is really should have been just a package name
2017-12-05T08:12:19Z borodust: that's not really a nickname, this is how it supposed to be addressed
2017-12-05T08:12:32Z borodust: otherwise, i agree about nickname thing
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2017-12-05T08:13:30Z larsen: ok, I guess I need to learn how to use rename-package then :)
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2017-12-05T08:20:33Z borodust: larsen: my apologies for the inconvenience
2017-12-05T08:20:39Z borodust: i'm pretty sure :gamekit package would be taken too ;p
2017-12-05T08:21:37Z larsen: no problem
2017-12-05T08:24:24Z larsen: I'm more concerned about one bit in the comment to the issue: " those two systems (this and Shinmera's flow) would never be able to coexist". Besides naming, do you see any other technical problem preventing them to work together ?
2017-12-05T08:24:48Z borodust: nope
2017-12-05T08:24:53Z larsen: ok
2017-12-05T08:25:24Z borodust: i meant that i'm not going to rename package and neither Shinmera, i'm pretty sure ;p
2017-12-05T08:28:59Z borodust: larsen: oh! Fare has a thing exactly for such cases: https://github.com/fare/package-renaming
2017-12-05T08:29:38Z larsen: I'll look into that, thanks
2017-12-05T08:30:10Z borodust: now that's a good reason to have whatever convenient nickname and jibberish main package name (java-style or whatever)
2017-12-05T08:34:02Z Ober: Shinmera: hey, you have mwe-log-commands installed?
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2017-12-05T08:47:22Z Shinmera: Ober: I have no idea what that is
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2017-12-05T08:47:48Z Shinmera: borodust: It's already released on QL and people might be using it, so I can't without breaking people's code.
2017-12-05T08:48:04Z borodust: Shinmera: yup, exactly
2017-12-05T08:50:23Z Shinmera: Before I release anything I always check QL for systems with the same name to avoid problems like this
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2017-12-05T08:51:39Z borodust: that's what i did :)
2017-12-05T08:52:19Z borodust: but wasn't fast enough
2017-12-05T08:52:39Z Shinmera: I also prepare for the day when package-local-nicknames will be available on all implementations that matter by internally using FQDNs. I could then remove the shorter name for all of my systems in a big, breaking change. Alas I don't see the p-l-n future coming any time soon.
2017-12-05T08:54:54Z borodust: but that's no probs, that would always be the problem with custom dists
2017-12-05T08:55:44Z borodust: i'll investigate Fare's package-renaming and maybe add something convenient for bodge dist users
2017-12-05T08:57:07Z Shinmera: In other news apparently Harmony's WASAPI backend is pretty badly broken... but only on some Windows setups. SIGH.
2017-12-05T08:57:36Z Shinmera: So much for never having to touch that crap again
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2017-12-05T10:21:28Z resttime: Is there a good way of handling C opaque structures as pointers without know the size of the structure in the CFFI?
2017-12-05T10:21:35Z resttime: Or impossible
2017-12-05T10:26:16Z varjag: why, unless you need to descend the structure it can be just an untyped pointer
2017-12-05T10:26:18Z Shinmera: I don't know what you mean. You have a pointer and you want to do... what with it?
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2017-12-05T10:27:25Z Shinmera: Pointers are addresses as values. They don't in themselves contain data.
2017-12-05T10:27:29Z Shinmera: Aside from the address.
2017-12-05T10:27:46Z Shinmera: The struct is going to remain in memory whether you have a pointer to its starting address or not
2017-12-05T10:28:24Z resttime: Hmm, I guess here's the use case: http://liballeg.org/a5docs/trunk/keyboard.html
2017-12-05T10:28:39Z resttime: There is no function which straight up returns a structure pointer pointer
2017-12-05T10:28:42Z p_l: I'd probably add a "type" declaration for ease of debugging later on, but that's it
2017-12-05T10:29:01Z Shinmera: resttime: Liking to docs tells me exactly nothing about what you want to do
2017-12-05T10:29:04Z Shinmera: *linking
2017-12-05T10:29:21Z resttime: (still writing)
2017-12-05T10:29:50Z resttime: So I'm forced to define the cstruct with CFFI and then allocate the structure before then passing
2017-12-05T10:30:13Z varjag: resttime: there is probably an allocator method in the c api
2017-12-05T10:30:30Z ssake: remember to free
2017-12-05T10:30:35Z varjag: otherwise it can't really be "opaque"
2017-12-05T10:31:03Z resttime: varjag: There isn't, Use cases seem to be defining the keystate like: 		ALLEGRO_KEYBOARD_STATE keyState;
2017-12-05T10:31:05Z p_l: varjag: looks like there's no allocator, but you're expected to do malloc(sizeof struct_type)
2017-12-05T10:31:34Z varjag: ok, then it's all the way down the rabbit hole
2017-12-05T10:31:36Z Shinmera: What you do in this case is write a C program that emits the sizeof and then just allocate that.
2017-12-05T10:32:21Z Shinmera: Remember to run that program and record the size for all systems you want to run on. It might change!
2017-12-05T10:32:31Z Shinmera: Or don't and just pray it stays constant.
2017-12-05T10:32:32Z Zhivago: Or, perhaps better, write a C function to allocate it for you.
2017-12-05T10:32:47Z Zhivago: Remember that there is also alignment to consider.
2017-12-05T10:32:54Z Shinmera: Zhivago: Then you'd have to compile that C program on every system and you'd be back to the same deal.
2017-12-05T10:33:14Z p_l: SWIG can help automate some of that, iirc
2017-12-05T10:33:15Z Zhivago: Sure -- there's no way around that.
2017-12-05T10:33:24Z resttime: I was hoping to be able avoid external C stuff, but I guess it's "impossible" after all.
2017-12-05T10:33:25Z p_l: including writing helper libs
2017-12-05T10:33:32Z resttime: I'll just pray that the structure remains constant
2017-12-05T10:33:35Z Zhivago: The size of C structs is up to the C implementations.
2017-12-05T10:33:45Z varjag: it's possible, just a lot of typing
2017-12-05T10:33:50Z p_l: resttime: it seems to be that allegro went out of its way to be a PITA in this
2017-12-05T10:33:52Z varjag: i did just that with pjsip wrapper
2017-12-05T10:35:10Z resttime: p_l: Well they do have a new event system which mostly gets used. Someone using the bindings I wrote for allegro was wondering if there could be more support for the keyboard routines, so I started looking into this
2017-12-05T10:35:30Z resttime: Keyboard routines outside of the event system that is
2017-12-05T10:35:55Z Shinmera: Another thing you can do is grovel the headers
2017-12-05T10:37:15Z Shinmera: That would at least automate the "figuring out the sizeof" part.
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2017-12-05T10:38:58Z resttime: Shinmera: Well at this point I'm thinking that the structure probably won't be changing so I'll define the opaque type and write a WITH-KEYBOARD-STATE macro that could work
2017-12-05T10:39:28Z resttime: Or make a defctype that'll interally do the stuff with translate -to-foreign
2017-12-05T10:40:02Z resttime: And change a function or two that'll become an allocater
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2017-12-05T10:42:15Z Zhivago: resttime: If the structure is opaque, you should not be allocating yourself in the first place. There is somewhere that it will have a complete type, and that's where the allocator needs to be.
2017-12-05T10:43:26Z resttime: Zhivago: I'm looking at how it's used and I don't think I have a choice :/
2017-12-05T10:43:29Z resttime: http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2017/11/10/Allegro-Tutorial-Series-Part-4-Keyboard-and-Mouse.aspx
2017-12-05T10:46:15Z Zhivago: ALLEGRO_KEYBOARD_STATE has a complete type.
2017-12-05T10:46:59Z Zhivago: ALLEGRO_KEYBOARD seems to have an incomplete type -- which one do you need?
2017-12-05T10:47:26Z resttime: The state and hmmm, what's your definition of complete type and opaque
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2017-12-05T10:47:59Z Zhivago: opaque is gibberish made up by people to express an intent realized via a pointer to an incomplete type.
2017-12-05T10:48:29Z Zhivago: struct foo; <- this type is incomplete here. struct foo { int i; }; <- Now struct foo is a complete type, and has a sizeof, etc.
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2017-12-05T10:49:54Z borodust: resttime: you possibly could benefit from cl-autowrap
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2017-12-05T10:50:56Z borodust: it can make opaque structs (bit blobs)
2017-12-05T10:51:27Z borodust: more like define than make, but anyway
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2017-12-05T10:54:01Z borodust: resttime: shameful self-plug: if all you need is simple graphics, audio and input for your game w/o diving into native and/or configuration land, trivial-gamekit might work for you
2017-12-05T10:54:30Z Shinmera: The context is his existing library for Allegro
2017-12-05T10:54:40Z Shinmera: Plugging another system doesn't help.
2017-12-05T10:54:46Z borodust: oh
2017-12-05T10:55:00Z borodust: i see, my bad
2017-12-05T10:55:10Z resttime: borodust: Counter plug, if you need a monolith game programming library you can use my cl-liballegro :D
2017-12-05T10:55:19Z borodust: ;p
2017-12-05T10:55:43Z borodust: will it make distributable binaries for me? ;)
2017-12-05T10:56:41Z resttime checks out trivial-gamekit to stea- research features
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2017-12-05T10:57:31Z p_l: resttime: CFFI-grovel might help in getting manageable code for allegro
2017-12-05T10:59:32Z resttime: Well, at this point "everything" is written so it's probably alright
2017-12-05T11:00:03Z resttime: (didn't know much about many things when I first wrote bindings)
2017-12-05T11:00:19Z resttime: I'm curious though, is that CFFI-grovel requires the header files right?
2017-12-05T11:00:44Z resttime: So if one was to distrubutethey would also need to include them?
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2017-12-05T11:06:15Z resttime: Hmmm yeah that seems to be the case
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2017-12-05T11:12:40Z borodust: resttime: not only that, but you would require users to install whole gnu thing onto their machines for groveller to work :/
2017-12-05T11:13:26Z resttime: borodust: Also cl-bodge looks interesting, game engines and stuff are currently above me since my knowledge is meagre :P
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2017-12-05T11:15:20Z resttime: Maybe one day I'll have my own to add onto the pile of game enginers laying around
2017-12-05T11:16:48Z borodust: resttime: same boat ;p
2017-12-05T11:18:01Z resttime: borodust: In your exp do think making a game is orthogonal to making a game engine?
2017-12-05T11:18:12Z borodust: cl-bodge is a pile of functionality at the moment with vast api i literally don't have time to cover with docs - part of the reason trivial-gamekit exists
2017-12-05T11:18:26Z borodust: resttime: yes, totally
2017-12-05T11:18:33Z resttime: I'm a bit hesitant to go all into working in game engine because of that
2017-12-05T11:19:06Z borodust: if you want make game, you should start making a game, not tool
2017-12-05T11:19:35Z borodust: unless there's not tools, but then you would just write specific tool, not an engine
2017-12-05T11:19:42Z borodust: *there's no
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2017-12-05T11:47:58Z paule32: hello
2017-12-05T11:48:09Z paule32: have problem with hash table
2017-12-05T11:48:11Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/efwufLyu
2017-12-05T11:48:40Z paule32: the error from clisp is under the code
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2017-12-05T11:52:45Z resttime: paule32: I think it's the way you're using LOOP
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2017-12-05T11:53:08Z resttime: There's a different way if you want to iterate a hashtable
2017-12-05T11:53:10Z Shinmera: resttime: If you're interested in gamedev and game engine dev: I have a weekly stream on Sundays where I do exactly that. https://events.tymoon.eu/1 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9MtJPRRP5KBH40SGCenztPW
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2017-12-05T11:56:47Z borodust: resttime: i also can recommend Bagger's vids: https://www.twitch.tv/baggers___ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMV8p6Lb-bd6UZtTc_QD4zA
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2017-12-05T11:57:25Z borodust: Pushing Pixels with Lisp series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82o5NeyZtvw&list=PL2VAYZE_4wRITJBv6saaKouj4sWSG1FcS
2017-12-05T11:57:40Z Shinmera: Baggers' stuff is more about OpenGL and CEPL than necessarily gamedev, though.
2017-12-05T11:58:05Z Shinmera: Except for the one time he did make a game
2017-12-05T11:58:09Z Shinmera: (I wish he'd do it again)
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2017-12-05T11:59:50Z borodust: resttime: also i can recommend #lispgames channel for sharing and acquiring lispgamedev experiences (not always on topic)
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2017-12-05T12:03:05Z wxie: paule32: What do you want to do with the code
2017-12-05T12:03:09Z wxie: paule32:
2017-12-05T12:03:15Z wxie: paule32:     (loop for wrd in *word-table*
2017-12-05T12:03:15Z wxie:         do (*word-table* :test #'equal))
2017-12-05T12:03:43Z beach: wxie: You may be wasting your time.  paule32 has come here for quite some time, and he doesn't follow the advice he is given.
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2017-12-05T12:04:12Z paule32: Shinmera: cool streams
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2017-12-05T12:04:17Z beach: wxie: He continues to submit code that does not follow accepted conventions, and he refuses to go read a book about Common Lisp.
2017-12-05T12:04:38Z paule32: wxie: iterate through *word-list*
2017-12-05T12:04:52Z wxie: beach: Thanks.
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2017-12-05T12:27:11Z paule32: https://pastebin.com/HNRg53Nu
2017-12-05T12:27:18Z paule32: if you prefer ^
2017-12-05T12:27:33Z paule32: i have reformat with emacs
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2017-12-05T12:38:51Z wxie: paule32: *user-table*
2017-12-05T12:38:51Z wxie: #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL ((0 NIL) . ((1 . "paule32") (2 . "leero"))))
2017-12-05T12:39:13Z wxie: paule32: It seems not what you want, right?
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2017-12-05T12:39:51Z paule32: yes
2017-12-05T12:40:29Z paule32: at first, i would like see, if the input text/word is present
2017-12-05T12:40:37Z paule32: in *word-list*
2017-12-05T12:44:07Z wxie: paule32: *word-table*
2017-12-05T12:44:07Z wxie: #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (2 . ("guten" "good")) (1 . ("hallo" "hello")))
2017-12-05T12:44:29Z paule32: yes, sorry, *word-table*
2017-12-05T12:44:49Z wxie: paule32: This will cause problem.
2017-12-05T12:47:30Z paule32: yes
2017-12-05T12:49:26Z wxie: paule32: What is your wrd?
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2017-12-05T12:50:16Z paule32: wxie: line 75 => 1 for cw00001
2017-12-05T12:50:58Z paule32: cw00001 => line 58 => '("hallo" "hello")
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2017-12-05T12:52:45Z Xach: borodust: anything I can try today?
2017-12-05T12:53:45Z borodust: hi Xach, i'm scheduling a debug session on friend's machine, if we would be able to reproduce the issue
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2017-12-05T12:54:06Z borodust: Xach: meaning, not yet, no :)
2017-12-05T12:54:14Z Xach: Ok, thanks for looking into it.
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2017-12-05T12:56:31Z borodust: Xach: thanks for your patience
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2017-12-05T13:08:33Z paule32: wxie: have i missing something?
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2017-12-05T13:09:48Z SaganMan: wxie: german?
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2017-12-05T13:15:31Z paule32: it seems, there is a ( missing
2017-12-05T13:15:58Z wxie: paule32: ENDP: A proper list must not end with #1=#S(HASH-TABLE
2017-12-05T13:15:58Z wxie:       :TEST FASTHASH-EQL (2 . ("guten" "good"))
2017-12-05T13:15:58Z wxie:       (1 . ("hallo" "hello")))
2017-12-05T13:16:32Z paule32: (2 . ("guten" "good")) (1 . ("hallo" "hello")) ) <--- this one
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2017-12-05T13:17:26Z wxie: paule32: That one is for #S(.
2017-12-05T13:18:09Z paule32: yes, the last ) missing first (
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2017-12-05T13:20:05Z wxie: paule32: So you can fix it.
2017-12-05T13:20:28Z paule32: wut?
2017-12-05T13:20:36Z paule32: the clisp sources?
2017-12-05T13:20:50Z wxie: Yes, the error.
2017-12-05T13:21:41Z paule32: not that i can't programming in C, but this is high math
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2017-12-05T13:23:53Z paule32: or is it enough, to programming a if condition with the display/output code in Lisp?
2017-12-05T13:24:56Z jdz: wxie: it seems your enthusiasm is dwindling.
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2017-12-05T13:30:17Z wxie: paule32: I don't know what you want to test in the loop. Could you explain?
2017-12-05T13:31:33Z paule32: firstly, i would like print the *word-table* items of a given item/counter = wrd
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2017-12-05T13:47:29Z paule32: i have to go to meeting, back in some hours
2017-12-05T13:47:41Z paule32: may be someone has an idea
2017-12-05T13:47:43Z paule32: bbl
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2017-12-05T13:58:20Z wxie: paule32: You need do something like loop for v being the hash-value of h do
2017-12-05T13:58:45Z wxie: paule32: You cannot use hash-table as list
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2017-12-05T14:16:39Z jackdaniel: alexandria has function which converts ht to plist afair
2017-12-05T14:16:54Z jackdaniel: also, for k/v, one could use maphash
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2017-12-05T15:01:36Z resttime: I used lisp on CSV's to generate 'schedules' for a small C testing utility
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2017-12-05T15:02:06Z resttime: Adding 4 more definitions to that code I generated a C++ braced initializer list for an unordered map that associates hardware commands to hexstrings :3
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2017-12-05T15:03:39Z resttime: Doing the little stuff like this is nice
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2017-12-05T15:20:50Z flip214: can a macro signal the macroexpander to stop expanding this level, and continue with subforms only?
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2017-12-05T15:21:22Z Shinmera: What does that even mean
2017-12-05T15:21:53Z Shinmera: Macros are functions that are run at compile time to emit new forms in place of the macro expression.
2017-12-05T15:22:05Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, right.
2017-12-05T15:22:50Z flip214: and I'd like to have (foo . args) to be expanded into (foo something . args), ie. insert a state argument into a function call.
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2017-12-05T15:23:15Z Shinmera: What part of that is a macro
2017-12-05T15:23:21Z flip214: currently I'm using a macro that puts the function on a gensym, and provides a macro that expands into such a call instead
2017-12-05T15:23:47Z flip214: but that means I can't trace the original function name anymore, I need to trace the gensym instead
2017-12-05T15:23:49Z schweers: flip214: is it possible you’re actually looking for refactoring tools?
2017-12-05T15:23:55Z flip214: schweers: no.
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2017-12-05T15:24:18Z flip214: on the source level I'd like this argument to be hidden.
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2017-12-05T15:26:12Z Shinmera: (defmacro with-injected-thing (&body body) `(flet ((fn (&rest args) (apply fn something args))) ,@body)) ?
2017-12-05T15:26:27Z flip214: so, (defmacro define-state-fn (name args &body body) `(progn (defun ,<gensym> ,(cons state args) ...)) (defmacro ,name (args) (,<gensym> state ,@ args))) is the gist of it
2017-12-05T15:27:00Z flip214: Shinmera: sadly no, different context - the function is defined on the top level.
2017-12-05T15:27:27Z Shinmera: And what prevents you from just supplying a foo* that calls foo with the argument you need?
2017-12-05T15:27:52Z flip214: what I'm asking is can I do something like (defmacro foo (args) (values `(,foo state ,@ args) :STOP-TRANSLATING-THIS-FORM)))
2017-12-05T15:28:09Z Shinmera: You can't have a function and macro bound to the same symbol,
2017-12-05T15:28:14Z Shinmera: so
2017-12-05T15:28:17Z Shinmera: no
2017-12-05T15:28:21Z flip214: Shinmera: it's still not possible to use the _visible_ symbol for tracing, seeing the documentation, etc.
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2017-12-05T15:28:59Z Shinmera: but the visible symbol will be foo*, and you can trace that just fine
2017-12-05T15:29:07Z Shinmera: And you can copy the docstring over easy
2017-12-05T15:29:21Z Shinmera: Though arguably the docstring shouldn't be the same since it'll be supplying a hidden argument
2017-12-05T15:29:24Z flip214: Shinmera: still, foo* might create a conflict with another function
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2017-12-05T15:30:19Z Bicyclidine: What if the user was to write in the state argument? It would fail, if I follow correctly.
2017-12-05T15:31:07Z Bicyclidine: the macro and the function are essentially two different things. Giving them the same name is just confusing.
2017-12-05T15:31:52Z Shinmera: Yeah, you'd have different semantics for (foo ..) vs (funcall 'foo ..)
2017-12-05T15:31:55Z flip214: Bicyclidine: well, perhaps I should just put all that on a blog somewhere... having the big picture makes discussing about the feature easier
2017-12-05T15:32:13Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, right, but that wouldn't be an issue for that usecase.
2017-12-05T15:32:27Z Shinmera: I can't see how that's ever possible.
2017-12-05T15:32:52Z Bicyclidine: if you don't want to allow funcall (or apply) then it's a macro.
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2017-12-05T15:32:56Z jackdaniel: in McCLIM many macros have pairs
2017-12-05T15:33:03Z jackdaniel: invoke-with-foo which accepts the continuation
2017-12-05T15:33:14Z jackdaniel: and foo, which accepts body and creates lexical function for it
2017-12-05T15:33:36Z jackdaniel: s/for/from/
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2017-12-05T15:34:04Z flip214: thanks for trying to help me, though! much appreciated!
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2017-12-05T16:14:38Z pjb: minion: memo for Josh_2: perhaps you want to count the ACTUAL number of operations needed to sort, and compare that for your different inputs.  For sort algorithms, it's usually the number of swap that is counted.  Or the number of accesses to the sequence.  Or the number of comparison.  Unless you have your own quicksort implementation, if you use cl:sort it will be easier to just count the number of comparisons.
2017-12-05T16:14:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-12-05T16:17:00Z pjb: paule32: at this point, it might be a good idea to read a book about NLP…  Perhaps Gazdar & Mellish, Natural Language Processing in LISP - An Introduction to Computational Linguistics, Addison Wesley.
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2017-12-05T17:06:53Z emaczen: SBCL does a tail call optimization but CCL instead overflows the stack. Any suggestions for getting CCL to do the same tail call optimization?
2017-12-05T17:07:39Z emaczen: I could manually re-write but I think the recursive code is much more clear
2017-12-05T17:08:28Z beach: It is better to use iteration than recursion in Common Lisp.
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2017-12-05T17:14:41Z Bicyclidine: you'd have to check the ccl manual for when it does tail call optimization.
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2017-12-05T17:20:07Z schweers: emaczen: SBCL does tco depending on the optimization settings, maybe CCL does so to, but has different criteria?
2017-12-05T17:21:59Z emaczen: schweers: I'm just finding out that my optimization settings are not what I thought they were.
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2017-12-05T17:22:37Z schweers: have you tried aggressive optimizations?
2017-12-05T17:22:40Z emaczen: I expect (declaim (optimize ...)) to be evaluated at startup in init files for each implementations compiler.
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2017-12-05T17:22:54Z emaczen: schweers: what is an aggressive optimization?
2017-12-05T17:23:11Z schweers: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 1))) for instance
2017-12-05T17:23:23Z schweers: that’s what I mostly use when not debugging
2017-12-05T17:23:33Z beach: emaczen: Where did you put that declaim form?
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2017-12-05T17:25:14Z schweers: emaczen: um, I’m not sure, but it might be that declaim only has an effect during the compilation of the file in which it occurs
2017-12-05T17:25:33Z schweers: I put the aforementioned declaim at the beginning of my files
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2017-12-05T17:26:10Z emaczen: beach: I put the declaim form at the top of my .ccl-init.lisp and .sbclrc
2017-12-05T17:26:38Z beach: That ought to work.
2017-12-05T17:27:04Z Bicyclidine: declaim is per file sometimes. i forget if it is in ccl.
2017-12-05T17:27:10Z schweers: beach: so declaim has an effect after the file in which it was put ends?
2017-12-05T17:27:35Z Bicyclidine: that's unspecified.
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2017-12-05T17:28:07Z Bicyclidine: unspecified for compile file. if the rc is loaded maybe it's defined to continue effecting. not sure.
2017-12-05T17:28:13Z emaczen: how can I check optimization settings in SBCL? #ccl informed me in CCL how to do it, which is how I found out.
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2017-12-05T17:30:13Z phoe: sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy
2017-12-05T17:30:33Z phoe: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Compiler-Policy
2017-12-05T17:32:12Z emaczen: phoe: thanks, well the SBCL settings are as I expect
2017-12-05T17:35:30Z schweers: phoe: cool, thanks for mentioning this.  I didn’t know this
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2017-12-05T17:40:46Z phoe: schweers: it pays to read software manuals once in a while, including your language specification and implementation manual :)
2017-12-05T17:40:53Z phoe: emaczen: no problem. BUT
2017-12-05T17:41:05Z phoe: take into account that these are global settings and can be modified by local declarations.
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2017-12-05T17:41:45Z phoe: If you want to be EXTRA sure that your programs are compiled without tricks like (declare (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0))) you may want to sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy
2017-12-05T17:41:57Z phoe: which can set a minimum and maximum value on all optimization settings.
2017-12-05T17:42:50Z phoe: what is common in people's .sbclrc files is actually firmly setting the debug/safety policy to 3, so everything is compiled with debug 3 and safety 3.
2017-12-05T17:42:58Z Xach: common?
2017-12-05T17:43:01Z _rumbler31: beach: why is it better to do iteration than recursion in cl?
2017-12-05T17:43:29Z _rumbler31: emaczen: I've gotten ccl to do tco before, what code are you testing?
2017-12-05T17:43:43Z phoe: Xach: from the suggestions I saw over time on #lisp
2017-12-05T17:43:56Z phoe: _rumbler31: CL has no TCO so your stack may explode at the implementation's discretion
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2017-12-05T17:44:22Z phoe: also, it is common for Lisp programmers in general to favor iterative programming style. Macros like LOOP are an example of that.
2017-12-05T17:44:44Z phoe: or rather, CL *standard* has no TCO, implementations may and do provide it.
2017-12-05T17:44:48Z phoe: most of the time.
2017-12-05T17:45:08Z phoe: but if someone does debug 3 safety 3, like above, then SBCL will not TCO.
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2017-12-05T17:47:30Z Xach: sometimes recursion is a great fit for a problem
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2017-12-05T17:57:28Z jasom: It is very rare that *tail* recursion is a better fit than interation
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2017-12-05T17:57:58Z jasom: The only one that comes to mind are state-machines, where tail-calling the next state is IMO more readable than alternatives.
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2017-12-05T18:15:20Z shka: good evening!
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2017-12-05T18:25:09Z Josh_2: Evening shka
2017-12-05T18:25:10Z minion: Josh_2, memo from pjb: perhaps you want to count the ACTUAL number of operations needed to sort, and compare that for your different inputs.  For sort algorithms, it's usually the number of swap that is counted.  Or the number of accesses to the sequence.  Or the number of comparison.  Unless you have your own quicksort implementation, if you use cl:sort it will be easier to just count the number of comparisons.
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2017-12-05T18:26:12Z Josh_2: pjb: Thanks for the memo but it's a bit late now :P I gave my presentation yesterday and the assessor said it was an excellent presentation and that I hit all the points
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2017-12-05T18:30:35Z pjb: Josh_2: congratulations!
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2017-12-05T18:33:13Z Josh_2: Would share my presentation but idk where to upload somewhere I don't have to sign up
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2017-12-05T18:54:50Z beach: _rumbler31: Because Common Lisp does not guarantee tail-call optimization.  There are cases where recursion is the best way, of course (like when you deal with a data structure that is naturally recursive).  But for traversing linear data structures, iteration is preferable.
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2017-12-05T18:56:31Z shka: thing is, common lisp is really functional language
2017-12-05T18:56:38Z shka: *is not really
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2017-12-05T19:02:26Z jmercouris: I can't think of a scenario in which recursion is more performant than iteration, are there any examples?
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2017-12-05T19:07:18Z jackdaniel: performance isn't the only metric important in software development
2017-12-05T19:07:34Z jackdaniel: *if* recursion is easier to learn and understand, it saves programmer time
2017-12-05T19:08:10Z beach: jmercouris: What jackdaniel says.  It has to do with what makes the code easy to understand and maintain.
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2017-12-05T19:08:35Z shka: yes, exactly
2017-12-05T19:08:37Z beach: jmercouris: So if you traverse a tree, for example, recursion is often preferable to iteration.
2017-12-05T19:09:13Z shka: if your code needs to construct stack in order to iterate, you are better off with recursive function
2017-12-05T19:09:33Z beach: Indeed.
2017-12-05T19:09:49Z shka: most of the time
2017-12-05T19:10:02Z shka: sometimes performance IS really important
2017-12-05T19:10:24Z shka: but it is not that often
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2017-12-05T19:11:20Z jmercouris: I'm a software engineer too, don't confuse me being a noob with lisp that I am a noob in general, I understand the importance of developer time, I am just wondering if there is ever a scenario in which a recursive implementation is more performant than an iterative one
2017-12-05T19:11:43Z beach: jmercouris: Define "performant".
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2017-12-05T19:12:00Z jmercouris: beach: real time between start and completion of task
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2017-12-05T19:12:32Z jmercouris: not necessarily time complexity, but on actual hardware, an example of a recursive solution being quicker
2017-12-05T19:12:40Z jackdaniel: if problem is better expressed iteratively, then you're better of using iteration. It's not always the case though
2017-12-05T19:12:45Z jackdaniel: someone mentioned state machines earlier
2017-12-05T19:13:03Z beach: I think that depends a lot on the implementation and on the architecture of the underlying computer.
2017-12-05T19:13:06Z jmercouris: state machines are a great use case for recursion, trees, as well, but will it every be quicker?
2017-12-05T19:13:39Z shka: jmercouris: if your stack is vector and it reallocates, you may hit sweet spot where performance degrades badly
2017-12-05T19:13:57Z jmercouris: shka: I wouldn't call that a "sweet" spot :P
2017-12-05T19:14:05Z shka: but that would be poor craft
2017-12-05T19:14:29Z shka: so as you can see, problem is not yet clearly defined
2017-12-05T19:14:31Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: given perfect implementation, which maps nicely into thought, what is faster: (loop over states if match my-state (do-my-state)) or maybe rather (do-my-state) ?
2017-12-05T19:15:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I don't understand, can you please rephrase?
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2017-12-05T19:16:09Z shka: what people around think about cl-cont?
2017-12-05T19:16:25Z jackdaniel: shka: it is very slow, because it emulates cps
2017-12-05T19:16:58Z shka: i don't care about performance that much, i just want to know if it works correctly
2017-12-05T19:17:22Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: if you can do a tail call, you just call a function (and you are done), if you have a loop, you need to wait until function returns and decide what to do next (so the caller controls the execution)
2017-12-05T19:17:23Z shka: or there are some nasty bugs, corner cases etc. that
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2017-12-05T19:17:36Z shka: that would make my pull my hair
2017-12-05T19:18:36Z jackdaniel: s/so the caller/because the caller/
2017-12-05T19:18:56Z scymtym: shka: known limitations, rather. it can be useful if you are aware of the limitations but it won't give you anything like scheme's call/cc or reset/shift
2017-12-05T19:19:37Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Aha I get it! Yes, that's a good example of a problem
2017-12-05T19:19:42Z shka: what else i can pick for continuations?
2017-12-05T19:19:53Z shka: is cl-cont still way to go?
2017-12-05T19:20:48Z jackdaniel: shka: you may pick scheme
2017-12-05T19:20:58Z jackdaniel: or ecl when 16.2.0 is released
2017-12-05T19:21:08Z shka: way to much code already written in CL
2017-12-05T19:21:10Z jackdaniel: I'm re-introducing delimited continuations there
2017-12-05T19:21:15Z Shinmera: You can pick not using continuations
2017-12-05T19:21:25Z shka: Shinmera: or that!
2017-12-05T19:21:37Z shka: still more likely then picking scheme
2017-12-05T19:21:39Z Shinmera: (also see http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html )
2017-12-05T19:21:43Z scymtym: jackdaniel: is there documentation regarding ECL's continuations?
2017-12-05T19:21:50Z razzy: < razzy> hi, i would like to have random acces FIFO buffer
2017-12-05T19:21:50Z razzy: 20:03 < razzy> and i found only complicated solutions
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2017-12-05T19:22:35Z jackdaniel: scymtym: I can send you a pdf (it was removed from documentation when they were removed, but it builds fine when you go back in time in git)
2017-12-05T19:23:03Z shka: perhaps i just write it manually with CPS style
2017-12-05T19:23:28Z shka: honestly, I like Graham style macros the most
2017-12-05T19:23:43Z shka: it is the least magical approach
2017-12-05T19:24:32Z scymtym: Shinmera: i think that one argues against call/cc specifically, not necessary against e.g. reset/shift (which closer to the style cl-cont supports)
2017-12-05T19:25:06Z scymtym: jackdaniel: please do if it doesn't cause too much trouble
2017-12-05T19:25:31Z jackdaniel: scymtym: sure
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2017-12-05T20:07:09Z razzy: solved :]
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2017-12-05T20:07:51Z Shinmera: scymtym: Yeah. It's worth reading anyway, though.
2017-12-05T20:08:27Z scymtym: Shinmera: agreed
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2017-12-05T20:25:49Z paule32: yippie
2017-12-05T20:25:56Z paule32: (defvar cw1 cw00001)
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2017-12-05T20:26:08Z paule32: (defvar cw00001 '("hallo" "hello"))
2017-12-05T20:26:21Z paule32: (setf (gethash cw1 *word-table*) cw00001)
2017-12-05T20:26:32Z paule32: (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (print k)) *word-table*)
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2017-12-05T20:26:45Z paule32: this code's do the job
2017-12-05T20:26:52Z paule32: lambda is great
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2017-12-05T20:27:35Z jurov: Hi all, when I do (ql:quickload 'usocket) (usocket:socket-server  #(127 0 0 1) 8910 nil nil) I get undefined function error.
2017-12-05T20:28:31Z jurov: NFI how to approach this? In dists/quicklisp/software/usocket-0.7.0.1/ the function does exist
2017-12-05T20:29:03Z Xach: jurov: hi! what does (ql:where-is-system "usocket") say?
2017-12-05T20:29:24Z jackdaniel: oh, there is such function? interesting!
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2017-12-05T20:30:06Z Xach: i use that function very much when troubleshooting
2017-12-05T20:30:14Z Xach: since systems can be not what or where you expect
2017-12-05T20:30:31Z Xach: it is just a thin layer over a couple of asdf functions, but so handy
2017-12-05T20:30:39Z jurov: (ql:where-is-system "usocket") has output ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/usocket-0.7.0.1/ which is right, and which I've checked
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2017-12-05T20:33:13Z jurov: but (find-package "usocket") returns nil
2017-12-05T20:33:28Z Xach: jurov: (find-package "USOCKET") is more likely to work
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2017-12-05T20:35:00Z Xach: jurov: i don't think usocket:socket-server is meant to be a function, is it? is it documented as such?
2017-12-05T20:35:41Z jurov: (do-external-symbols (s (find-package "USOCKET")) (print s)) does list USOCKET:SOCKET-SERVER
2017-12-05T20:35:52Z Xach: jurov: sure - but that doesn't mean it names a function
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2017-12-05T20:35:55Z jurov: and it's documented: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml
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2017-12-05T20:37:39Z jurov: it is definitely something that can be called. and it worked fine on this machine few months ago.
2017-12-05T20:38:03Z _rumbler31: jurov: can you restart your lisp, ql usocket and then re-issue your test and paste full output?
2017-12-05T20:38:32Z Xach: I also get an undefined function error. Hmm.
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2017-12-05T20:40:07Z jurov: http://dpaste.com/23FD2HV
2017-12-05T20:40:42Z Xach: jurov: i think it would be good to discuss on the list, because that seems like a strange oversight
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2017-12-05T20:40:54Z jurov: which list?
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2017-12-05T20:45:03Z paule32: jurov: you could be try: 127.0.0.1  instead 127 0 0 1
2017-12-05T20:45:54Z paule32: jurov: note: this is a string
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2017-12-05T20:46:11Z paule32: jurov: may be: "127.0.0.1"
2017-12-05T20:46:36Z jurov: paule32:but that has no influence on whether the function exists. and I remeber this working with the vector parameter
2017-12-05T20:48:53Z paule32: jurov: if you would like to set the vector value, try: (setf ip-address (vector 127 0 0 1))
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2017-12-05T20:50:29Z jurov: paule32: and what's the problem with #() notation?
2017-12-05T20:50:51Z paule32: symbols, not numbers
2017-12-05T20:51:50Z Xach: jurov: the usocket-devel list, which is not very busy, but still quite responsive
2017-12-05T20:52:05Z jurov: Xach: ok, ty
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2017-12-05T20:55:16Z Xach: jurov: i think i have sussed it
2017-12-05T20:55:43Z Xach: jurov: (ql:quickload "usocket-server") will load the file that defines what you want to use.
2017-12-05T20:55:49Z Xach: my grep failed me earlier
2017-12-05T20:56:22Z jurov: Yep, I found it announced here: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/usocket-devel/2016-October/000618.html
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2017-12-05T20:58:01Z jurov: But then symbols should not be exported either, i guess? what is the usual practice?
2017-12-05T20:58:22Z Xach: jurov: it is not too unusual to act as it does.
2017-12-05T20:58:32Z Xach: there is no problem exporting symbols that are not fbound
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2017-12-05T20:59:57Z jurov: Xach tyvm! Seeing from that thread, you actually had the same problem :)
2017-12-05T21:00:19Z _rumbler31: oh dang, I forgot about that
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2017-12-05T21:01:22Z Xach: heh
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2017-12-05T21:07:44Z Zakkor: (defun square (x) ...      ; how come (x) isn't a function call in this case?
2017-12-05T21:08:10Z Bicyclidine: defun is a macro, so it can define its own syntax.
2017-12-05T21:08:34Z pjb: macros and special operators have special rules.
2017-12-05T21:09:08Z Zakkor: is it something you could do within the language?
2017-12-05T21:09:18Z pjb: It is.
2017-12-05T21:09:22Z Bicyclidine: you can define your own macros, yeah.
2017-12-05T21:09:43Z Zakkor: intredasting
2017-12-05T21:09:53Z pjb: Zakkor: (defmacro defun (name lambda-list &body body) `(setf (symbol-function ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list ,@body))) ; basically.
2017-12-05T21:10:07Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro myquote (form) (list 'quote form)). now (myquote (7)) => (7), whereas (print (7)) would be an error
2017-12-05T21:10:17Z pjb: lambda is a macro that expands to (function (lambda …)) and function is a special operator, so special rules.
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2017-12-05T22:23:08Z foschia: hi
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2017-12-05T23:10:13Z foschia: help me!! i'm lost in Stupid Parentheses ahahaha
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2017-12-05T23:11:29Z Josh_2: wow
2017-12-05T23:11:45Z foschia: i'm a beginner lol :)
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2017-12-05T23:13:19Z foschia: i'll solve my problem in a next moment.. bye bye :)
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2017-12-05T23:26:49Z papachan: that was quick :p
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2017-12-06T04:30:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-06T04:32:02Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2017-12-06T04:46:57Z Ober: morning
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2017-12-06T06:48:30Z whoman: Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution
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2017-12-06T06:52:05Z pjb: Indeed.
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2017-12-06T06:54:12Z beach: whoman: Runaway recursion?
2017-12-06T06:54:19Z whoman: is there a way to create a graph of lisp forms, like "box notation" from gentle introduction to symbol computation ?
2017-12-06T06:54:35Z whoman: yes, experimenting with #1= and cons cells =)
2017-12-06T06:55:22Z beach: There is such software, yes.  But I can't remember the name now.
2017-12-06T06:57:10Z whoman: no problem =) i will explore closer after i digest this book
2017-12-06T06:57:37Z whoman: good to know it exists for an idea i have later (geometry)
2017-12-06T06:57:55Z beach: Yes, I even remember trying it out.
2017-12-06T06:58:39Z beach: Ah, "Sdraw"
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2017-12-06T06:59:00Z shka: graphviz can be used for that as well
2017-12-06T06:59:18Z beach: That would require some work.
2017-12-06T06:59:54Z shka: not that much, cl-graphviz even has tutorial just for drawning lists
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2017-12-06T07:01:08Z beach: But I can't remember the link. :(
2017-12-06T07:02:23Z beach: whoman: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/sdraw/
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2017-12-06T07:04:26Z whoman: ouu cool, thanks!
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2017-12-06T07:10:20Z Zhivago: whoman: I would suggest the dot language of graphviz.
2017-12-06T07:11:43Z whoman: alright i will try that first
2017-12-06T07:12:15Z whoman: "The Common Lisp standard specifies the interface between a Lisp implementation and the editor it provides. The interface is a function called ED."
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2017-12-06T07:17:16Z aeth: Implementation-specific. Doesn't work in SBCL out of the box, but describe gives me enough information. Looks like in sbcl it uses *ed-functions*
2017-12-06T07:17:24Z aeth: (setf *ed-functions* (list (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) (uiop:run-program "emacs"))))
2017-12-06T07:17:39Z aeth: That almost works, errors on exit, though. I'd also need to figure out how to use its argument.
2017-12-06T07:18:05Z aeth: It's probably not used enough for there to be a trivial-ed package that makes all this easy.
2017-12-06T07:18:54Z whoman: strange type errors with it
2017-12-06T07:19:13Z whoman: ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: (OR CONS (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME SYMBOL)
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2017-12-06T07:29:10Z pjb: whoman: see also hemlock
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2017-12-06T07:37:25Z whoman: ah yea! swi-prolog has a nice editor also
2017-12-06T07:37:27Z jackdaniel: hem, I've tried to start hemlock (both clx and tty) but it failed
2017-12-06T07:37:59Z whoman: well, we can run some things with cl-lib in emacs perhaps. =P
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2017-12-06T07:39:01Z pjb: debugging is in order.
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2017-12-06T08:37:41Z schweers: minion: memo for phoe: I do read manuals from time to time in order to spot things I missed on earlier passes (or didn’t understand yet), but that setting was still not something I was aware of.
2017-12-06T08:37:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-12-06T08:40:39Z borodust: Xach: tried on a different machine (macbook pro 2012, no homebrew, no devtools, probably nothing that could potentially pollute environment) and guess what? it worked D:
2017-12-06T08:41:52Z borodust: Xach: on that note, I have another suggestion, but i need to get back to my dev machine to update the code (basically, just supress SBCL FPE check) and push it, so in a few hours
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2017-12-06T09:15:01Z jdz: I used Hemlock (most likely with CMUCL) in 2003, was working just fine.  I even came up with an initfile (http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/.hemlock-init.lisp).
2017-12-06T09:15:43Z jdz: CCL's IDE is also based on Hemlock as far as I know.
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2017-12-06T09:20:06Z knobo3: How can I insert null in to a column with postmodern dao? Nil becomes false, not null :(
2017-12-06T09:21:22Z Shinmera: Leave the slot unbound?
2017-12-06T09:22:17Z mrSpec: maybe some special keyword :null ?
2017-12-06T09:23:32Z knobo3: Yes, looks like :null works
2017-12-06T09:24:17Z knobo3: in the class definition it is :db-null, and in the object it is :null
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2017-12-06T11:59:47Z Xach: dim: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-06/failure-report/pgloader.html#pgloader -- that's with sbcl from git, which uses asdf 3.3.1
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2017-12-06T12:20:50Z dim: thanks Xach! looks like the circular dependency is contained in simple-date though?
2017-12-06T12:21:30Z dim: simple-date-postgres-glue, cl-postgres-glue, simple-date, simple-date-postgres-glue
2017-12-06T12:23:48Z Xach: hmm!
2017-12-06T12:24:24Z Xach: well, something new in asdf has broken it, I think.
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2017-12-06T12:26:29Z knobo3: I experience a big delay when restarting one of my caveman projects on my development server that runs sbcl 1.4.2
2017-12-06T12:26:45Z knobo3: Could be simple-date related, maybe.
2017-12-06T12:27:59Z dim: so you're saying basically that asdf tests happen in quicklisp and after release?
2017-12-06T12:28:57Z knobo3: Can I turn on some asdf debugging to see what is happening?
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2017-12-06T12:31:43Z Xach: dim: I tried using asdf 3.3.1 to test things, but these problems did not immediately present themselves.
2017-12-06T12:31:50Z Xach: dim: that is, before sbcl adopted it.
2017-12-06T12:32:07Z Xach: dim: I don't know what the asdf release test process is
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2017-12-06T12:39:16Z jmercouris: This isn't a strictly lisp question, but within my browser, I have a global-map (as in emacs), I've named it global-map for consistency with emacs, but I'm thinkig about making it *global-map* to be consistent with lisp
2017-12-06T12:39:44Z Xach: It's not even a question at all!
2017-12-06T12:39:45Z jmercouris: So do you think I should leave it as global-map or make it *global-map*?
2017-12-06T12:39:55Z jmercouris: Yes, sorry, I was still typing the second part
2017-12-06T12:40:18Z ecraven: well, does your other code have earmuffs? then go with *global-map*
2017-12-06T12:40:38Z jmercouris: Yeah, my other code has earmuffs, but I was thinking of making exceptions for emacs specific variables to avoid confusing people
2017-12-06T12:40:57Z ecraven: jmercouris: but wouldn't it be more confusing if it is inconsistent?
2017-12-06T12:40:59Z jmercouris: I think earmuffs for all global vars for more consistency is more important than confusing a few emacs users
2017-12-06T12:41:21Z jmercouris: ecraven: Yeah, it MIGHT be a little less confusing in the beginning for some familiar variables, but more confusing in the long run
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2017-12-06T12:41:26Z ecraven: also, it's not emacs, is it? so unless you want to emulate more, I wouldn't care about just a few variables
2017-12-06T12:41:56Z knobo3: Does it load the same project multiple times? https://gist.github.com/knobo/de67a3ab9a55b9b8ab423c75f33936f7
2017-12-06T12:42:06Z knobo3: (a trace of loading a project.)
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2017-12-06T12:42:13Z mercourisj: sorry, my connection keeps dropping here
2017-12-06T12:42:16Z mercourisj: It's not emacs exactly, and emacs is in elisp, this is in lisp, so I should follow lisp convention
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2017-12-06T12:43:10Z ecraven: mercourisj: that would be what I'd think
2017-12-06T12:43:50Z knobo3: hmmm... That gist does not give much meaning.
2017-12-06T12:43:53Z mercourisj: ecraven: Thanks for the advice
2017-12-06T12:44:03Z ecraven: mercourisj: just my 2 cents
2017-12-06T12:44:19Z mercourisj: ecraven: No, I absolutely agree, it makes a lot of sense, and I hadn't thought of that before, so thank you
2017-12-06T12:44:45Z ecraven: mercourisj: was your browser the one that only runs on windows so far?
2017-12-06T12:45:22Z TMA: mercourisj: jmercouris: you can point emacs users to a file with a (define-symbol-macro global-map *global-map*) they can load if they wish
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2017-12-06T12:45:58Z jmercouris: unbelievable the connection here :| sorry about that!
2017-12-06T12:46:14Z ecraven: jmercouris: was your browser the one that only runs on windows so far?
2017-12-06T12:46:33Z jmercouris: ecraven: macOS, I'm working on the GTK port among stuff other stuff
2017-12-06T12:46:39Z jmercouris: I've written the code in a VERY portable way
2017-12-06T12:46:43Z ecraven: cool
2017-12-06T12:46:59Z jmercouris: It used to be in QT, but I hit a wall with performance on OSX
2017-12-06T12:47:18Z ecraven: are you using an existing web engine?
2017-12-06T12:47:19Z jmercouris: unfortunately, I opened my own can of cross-platform worms that I have to solve
2017-12-06T12:47:39Z jmercouris: ecraven: I'm using whatever web-engine is compiled on a given platform
2017-12-06T12:47:52Z jmercouris: In practice this means webkit for OSX, and webkit or webengine for linux
2017-12-06T12:48:17Z jmercouris: I will only personally support webkit on Linux though as I fundamentally do not trust google
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2017-12-06T12:53:06Z ecraven: looking forward to trying it ;)
2017-12-06T12:54:02Z jmercouris: ecraven: Thank you! I hope not to dissapoint! :)
2017-12-06T12:54:40Z ecraven: ;) always good to have more lispy choices
2017-12-06T12:55:11Z jmercouris: I can't argue with that!
2017-12-06T12:55:14Z TMA: mercourisj: jmercouris: you can point emacs users to a file with a (define-symbol-macro global-map *global-map*) they can load if they wish [this perhaps did not come through]
2017-12-06T12:55:38Z jmercouris: TMA: Ah, yes I did not see your message earlier, I guess I was disconnected at the time
2017-12-06T12:56:28Z jmercouris: TMA: so maybe some package they can install that loads  a whole bunch of these expansions written out for common vars?
2017-12-06T12:57:22Z jmercouris: TMA: Maybe I didn't say that correctly, but something akin to package-install, where they can install something that makes "alias" from some special set of vars (emacs specific global ones) to the ear muff version?
2017-12-06T12:57:28Z ecraven: hm.. then people will write extensions that depend on one or the other
2017-12-06T12:57:41Z jmercouris: ah shit, yes, that is a problem isn't it :D
2017-12-06T12:58:42Z ecraven: well, it just means if you do this, you will have to live with it for some time ;)
2017-12-06T12:59:16Z jmercouris: I'm starting to feel like Linus now that I have actual users, I can't just break userspace whenever I feel like it
2017-12-06T12:59:23Z jmercouris: I guess that is why emacs has such weird default keybindings
2017-12-06T12:59:41Z ecraven: yea, once there are users, it's easy to break things for *someone*
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2017-12-06T13:01:00Z TMA: jmercouris: something like an emacs-compatibility-layer, yes. I think that it might be a package that will be separate, contain the aliases and the users could just (use-package ...) it themselves
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2017-12-06T13:02:24Z TMA: jmercouris: the support burden needs to be considered. Personally I am not convinced that a non-emacs application shall cater to such emacs-specific taste preferences.
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2017-12-06T13:03:25Z pjb: jmercouris: I would (defvar *global-map*) and (define-symbol-macro global-map *global-map*)
2017-12-06T13:04:02Z TMA: jmercouris: it will just invite "where is the rest of elisp?" and "why haven't you done it as an emacs package?" questions.
2017-12-06T13:04:13Z pjb: jmercouris: However, this would have the property of letting local bindings to global-map be lexical bindings.   Perhaps not what you'd want.
2017-12-06T13:04:18Z jmercouris: TMA: Lol, that would be funny to see wouldn't it :D I'm already getting questions about Evil
2017-12-06T13:04:23Z pjb: (incf TMA)
2017-12-06T13:04:40Z jmercouris: pjb: Maybe I only provide the function and let the users reap what they sow :D?
2017-12-06T13:04:56Z pjb: yes, it would be better.
2017-12-06T13:05:14Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at hemlock.
2017-12-06T13:05:51Z jmercouris: pjb: I've looked at the source extensively already actually :D when I was trying to figure out how to get to stop eating my commands when in the REPL, as well as how to support copy/paste integration
2017-12-06T13:06:39Z pjb: I would advise to stick to the *convention*.  It will let you avoid losing hours debugging strange bugs.
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2017-12-06T13:08:22Z jmercouris: pjb: I'll just pretend I'm not aware of the discrepancy and leave it as earmuffs for now then :P if some emacs user comes across this log at a later time, they can proceed at their own risk :D
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2017-12-06T13:47:54Z Xach: linedit is also busted by asdf 3.3.1
2017-12-06T13:54:08Z schweers: Do people actually use hemlock?  I.e. is it in a usable state?
2017-12-06T13:54:08Z minion: schweers, memo from phoe: I know, I was kidding about the manuals. I keep on finding new gems and pearls inside ALEXANDRIA whose manual I've read tens of times and even inside CL.
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2017-12-06T13:59:23Z tfb: schweers: CCL's editor is hemlock, so, yes (I don't know how far it has diverged from other hemlocks)
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2017-12-06T14:39:05Z Xach: Shinmera: halftone has some trouble too -- http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-06/failure-report/halftone.html#halftone
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2017-12-06T14:46:50Z Shinmera: Xach: That's the same error as for lionchat. It's from the qt-libs asd, and I still don't understand what it's doing.
2017-12-06T14:48:04Z Xach: But this time lionchat doesn't have an issue.
2017-12-06T14:48:22Z Xach: Hmm
2017-12-06T14:48:23Z Shinmera: :shrug: I can't tell you what's going on. I can't reproduce it, nor explain it in any way.
2017-12-06T14:48:23Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
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2017-12-06T15:01:59Z Xach: Shinmera: ;     Symbol "STAMP<" not found in the UIOP/DRIVER package.
2017-12-06T15:02:02Z Xach: that seems new!
2017-12-06T15:02:37Z Xach: that is the thing i get with sbcl from git and quickloading halftone from quicklisp
2017-12-06T15:02:45Z Xach: due to asdf 3.3.1 maybe?
2017-12-06T15:03:09Z Shinmera: Sounds like the ASDF <> UIOP breakage
2017-12-06T15:03:17Z Shinmera: As in, UIOP fro QL, ASDF internal UIOP
2017-12-06T15:03:19Z Shinmera: *from
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2017-12-06T15:03:49Z Xach: Hmm!
2017-12-06T15:04:37Z Shinmera: But that shouldn't have anything to do with the error that's in your failure report. That one is just complete nonsense to me still.
2017-12-06T15:04:40Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't think that's the case
2017-12-06T15:05:16Z Xach: Shinmera: I am using uiop and asdf 3.3.1 both from sbcl.
2017-12-06T15:05:21Z Shinmera: Huh.
2017-12-06T15:05:27Z Xach: and my failure report's fatalest bit is the stamp< issue.
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2017-12-06T15:06:25Z Shinmera: Oh! I actually use stamp< in halftone
2017-12-06T15:06:28Z Shinmera: My bad
2017-12-06T15:07:19Z Xach: Now, I could see an argument that halftone is not to blame and it's a breaking UI change in uiop or asdf or something.
2017-12-06T15:07:33Z Xach: I don't know too much what should be expected, though
2017-12-06T15:07:40Z Shinmera: It is a breaking change for sure.
2017-12-06T15:07:58Z Shinmera: But then again ASDF already made another elsewhere
2017-12-06T15:08:01Z Shinmera: so
2017-12-06T15:08:23Z Shinmera: I guess one just can't count on ASDF being stable anymore.
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2017-12-06T15:09:50Z Shinmera: Workaround pushed.
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2017-12-06T15:10:10Z Xach: I really thought I tested 3.3.1 impacts last month. These new breakages surprise me.
2017-12-06T15:10:30Z Xach: I hate change and things that break stress me out!
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2017-12-06T15:12:22Z Shinmera: A relatable sentiment
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2017-12-06T15:18:43Z eudoxia: the stamp< thing is something Fare reported: https://twitter.com/Ngnghm/status/937885821272756226
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2017-12-06T15:22:12Z Shinmera: I prefer not having to use Twitter to notice if my software suddenly breaks
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2017-12-06T15:29:59Z eudoxia: yes
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2017-12-06T15:36:04Z jackdaniel: twiiter takes over github, woo hoo ;-)
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2017-12-06T15:39:28Z oleo: is translate-pathname broken in sbcl ?
2017-12-06T15:39:45Z oleo: Pathname components from SOURCE and FROM args to TRANSLATE-PATHNAME
2017-12-06T15:39:46Z oleo: did not match:
2017-12-06T15:39:46Z oleo:   :NEWEST NIL
2017-12-06T15:40:33Z oleo: and what the heck is that -> (SB-IMPL::TRANSLATE-COMPONENT :NEWEST NIL :NEWEST T)
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2017-12-06T15:40:50Z oleo: twice the same key ?
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2017-12-06T15:46:45Z jmercouris: Have you guys seen this? https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp
2017-12-06T15:47:29Z jmercouris: Seems to be using some RB somehow, maybe there is an RB to SED transpiler they are using
2017-12-06T15:47:51Z sjl__ is now known as sjl
2017-12-06T15:48:15Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/092X51K
2017-12-06T15:48:40Z jdz: oleo: it's a nice feature of CL being able to override keyword parameters.
2017-12-06T15:48:56Z Zhivago: How do you know if something is a transpiler or not?
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2017-12-06T15:50:14Z waynecolvin: maybe (lisp-implimetation-type) ? I think that just gives the name
2017-12-06T15:50:32Z Bike: oleo: not that i work with logical pathnames much, but why *.*.*?
2017-12-06T15:51:31Z jmercouris: Zhivago: What do you mean? I have no idea if he wrote it in ruby and just committed the sed, or literally wrote it in sed, there's no way for me to know actually
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2017-12-06T15:52:03Z Zhivago: What I mean is how can you tell if a program is a transpiler or if it is a compiler?
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2017-12-06T15:53:36Z Bike: the documentation suggests that the ruby file is a different implementation of the same thing (lisp via convoluted text editing)
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2017-12-06T15:55:37Z waynecolvin: maybe (disassemble function) ?
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2017-12-06T15:56:28Z mercourisj: Zhivago: My best guess (not being a compiler expert or anything) is that a transpiler goes from language a -> language b, whereas a compiler will go from language a -> machine code
2017-12-06T15:57:17Z Zhivago: How do you know which languages are machine code?
2017-12-06T15:57:41Z eudoxia: there is no principled distinction between a compiler and a transpiler tbh
2017-12-06T15:57:45Z Zhivago: Does a transpiler magically turn into a compiler if a new machine is developed?
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2017-12-06T15:57:56Z mercourisj: Zhivago: Can they persisted as 1 and 0 without an additional program?
2017-12-06T15:57:57Z Zhivago: Ah. It's an incoherent term used by idiots.
2017-12-06T15:58:25Z Zhivago: What machine codes are 'persisted as 1 and 0'?
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2017-12-06T15:58:30Z eudoxia: you can e.g. compile a high-level language to an SSA, very asm-looking JavaScript
2017-12-06T15:58:38Z waynecolvin: transpilers are a specialized subset of compilers
2017-12-06T15:58:47Z mercourisj: Zhivago: I'm sorry you feel this way about me, I won't bother you anymore
2017-12-06T15:58:56Z Zhivago: wayne: So, how do you determine if a compiler is a transpiler or not?
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2017-12-06T16:00:09Z waynecolvin: all compilers transform source code to object code, just sometimes the output is text files for further processing
2017-12-06T16:00:50Z mercourisj: I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-to-source_compiler
2017-12-06T16:00:55Z mercourisj: There seems to be a very clear definition
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2017-12-06T16:01:58Z Zhivago: wayne: So, a compiler which outputs assembly is a transpiler? But a compiler which includes an assembler and outputs the result of assembly is a compiler?
2017-12-06T16:02:44Z Zhivago: mercourisj: We have compilers from one machine code to another. Therefore machine code is source code. Therefore all compilers are transpilers?
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2017-12-06T16:03:49Z waynecolvin: and a CPU is a hardware interpreter
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2017-12-06T16:03:55Z Bike: this seems kind of tangential to the intended topic.
2017-12-06T16:04:10Z waynecolvin: what was the topic agan?
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2017-12-06T16:04:46Z Bike: some sed lisp thing.
2017-12-06T16:05:03Z Shinmera: Which is also off-topic
2017-12-06T16:05:26Z jmercouris: Zhivago: See: "A source-to-source compiler translates between programming languages that operate at approximately the same level of abstraction, while a traditional compiler translates from a higher level programming language to a lower level programming language."
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2017-12-06T16:05:29Z Bike: yeah. seizing on a word on the side is unnecessarily hostile, is all
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2017-12-06T16:06:16Z jmercouris: Bike: Not only hostile, but incorrect
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2017-12-06T16:06:36Z Shinmera: Can we just drop this
2017-12-06T16:07:00Z Bike: well, you brought it up, so if you want to argue about it go ahead i guess. except not since it's definitely off topic.
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2017-12-06T16:08:10Z Zhivago: jmercouris: Ok, so would a lisp to C compiler be a compiler, but a lisp to C compiler be a transpiler?
2017-12-06T16:08:37Z Zhivago: Rather, C to lisp compiler be a transpiler?
2017-12-06T16:08:48Z waynecolvin: i'd kind of like to know HOW to compie lisp to C...
2017-12-06T16:09:07Z Bike: use ecl?
2017-12-06T16:09:07Z Zhivago: It's easy enough -- take a look at ECLS for an example.
2017-12-06T16:09:28Z Bike: the ecl internals manual also helpfully explains some things, e.g. how closures are implemented.
2017-12-06T16:09:28Z _death: "transpiler" is just javascript newspeak, they need to come up with new terms for everything because they lack historical education..
2017-12-06T16:09:31Z jackdaniel: right, yet this compiled code still depends in core library
2017-12-06T16:09:54Z jackdaniel: and many optimizations are performed on ecl size, so it's not naive transpilation
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2017-12-06T16:10:21Z Zhivago: Ah, so if you're clever about it, it's not a transpiler? :)
2017-12-06T16:10:38Z jackdaniel: well, all compilers are transpilers to machine code then
2017-12-06T16:10:45Z waynecolvin: lisp500 had a lisp-to-c compiler of sorts but i couldn't get it to work
2017-12-06T16:10:46Z jackdaniel: and all interpreters are transpilers to bytecode
2017-12-06T16:11:01Z jackdaniel: taking too broad definition makes the term meaningless
2017-12-06T16:11:01Z Zhivago: Well, not all interpreters use bytecode.
2017-12-06T16:11:15Z Zhivago: The term seems meaningless to start with.
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2017-12-06T16:11:53Z ercourisjm: Can someone explain what (documentation) wants for "doc-type"? It says "symbol" in the CLHS, but I don't understand what they want
2017-12-06T16:11:57Z Zhivago: Apparantly a transpiler targets a language of the same level of abstraction and doesn't do many optimizations.
2017-12-06T16:12:00Z jackdaniel: I tend to disagree, but not enough to try prove my point
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2017-12-06T16:12:26Z _death: ercourisjm: it depends what you want documentation for.. for example it could be the symbol FUNCTION or the symbol VARIABLE..
2017-12-06T16:12:34Z Zhivago: Although how we measure the level of abstraction or determing the critical level of optimization is unclear.
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2017-12-06T16:12:42Z jackdaniel: right, that's closer to my representation of this word
2017-12-06T16:12:42Z ercourisjm: _death: Is there a list of FUNCTION, VARIABLE, etc that I can look up?
2017-12-06T16:12:58Z _death: clhs documentation
2017-12-06T16:12:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2017-12-06T16:13:07Z jackdaniel: many terms are fuzzy (especially in natural language). but right, not well defined term
2017-12-06T16:13:39Z ercourisjm: _death: Ah, I see the section now, ok got it
2017-12-06T16:13:42Z ercourisjm: _death: Thank you
2017-12-06T16:13:55Z _death: ercourisjm: well, actually VARIABLE is not there.. but it's also a generic function, so can be extended with new doc-types
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2017-12-06T16:14:10Z Bike: it is, pretty far down.
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2017-12-06T16:14:23Z ercourisjm: _death: I see variable
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2017-12-06T16:14:57Z _death: ercourisjm: right.. my memory didn't fail but my scanner did :D
2017-12-06T16:16:02Z oleo: what does being constant mean in lisp ?
2017-12-06T16:16:15Z oleo: is it a type too ?
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2017-12-06T16:16:31Z ercourisjm: oleo: There is defconstant
2017-12-06T16:16:50Z ercourisjm: oleo: Apparently constant is a built in class
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2017-12-06T16:17:05Z Bike: no it isn't.
2017-12-06T16:17:13Z alandipert: i am using lisp for some adventofcode problems, i'd much appreciate any thoughts or feedback on my solution for today's puzzle http://adventofcode.com/2017/day/6 https://github.com/alandipert/advent-of-code-2017/blob/master/day06.lisp
2017-12-06T16:17:17Z ercourisjm: Bike: Accordig to my repl (describe 'constant) it is
2017-12-06T16:17:41Z ercourisjm: Bike: Can you explain exactly what is going on then? I'm not doubting your opinion, just trying to understand
2017-12-06T16:18:06Z Bike: whatever package you're in has a symbol CONSTANT and uses it to name a class.
2017-12-06T16:18:21Z Bike: The CL package doesn't even have a symbol CONSTANT (try (find-symbol "CONSTANT" "CL"))
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2017-12-06T16:18:57Z Bike: defconstant makes constant bindings. there is no way to alter a constant binding portably. you can't shadow them. that's what a constant is.
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2017-12-06T16:19:06Z _death: alandipert: looks similar to mine.. https://gist.github.com/death/02e716211827683c48a9c580348fd5a5
2017-12-06T16:20:08Z oleo: constant wrt the machine address
2017-12-06T16:20:49Z oleo: err memory address
2017-12-06T16:20:53Z alandipert: _death thanks! i just learned a few things from yours
2017-12-06T16:21:04Z Bike: lisp has no concept of memory addresses.
2017-12-06T16:21:40Z oleo: ya
2017-12-06T16:22:07Z Bike: So don't bring them up.
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2017-12-06T16:23:07Z truename: another advent of code: https://pastebin.com/ErizrCk1
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2017-12-06T16:26:47Z mercourisj: I've asked this quesiton awhile ago and looked through the IRC logs to try to find it but could not, what's the way to list all of the variables defied by defvar?
2017-12-06T16:26:50Z waynecolvin: [13]> (do-external-symbols (x (find-package "COMMON-LISP")) (print x))
2017-12-06T16:27:05Z Bike: mercourisj: isn't one.
2017-12-06T16:27:26Z Bike: not standardly, anyway
2017-12-06T16:27:55Z Shinmera: Here's how to do it on some implementations. https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/symbols.lisp#L198
2017-12-06T16:28:21Z mercourisj: What about just listing all symbols? is that standard?
2017-12-06T16:28:28Z mercourisj: I can just filter for things with earmuffs I guess right?
2017-12-06T16:28:31Z Bike: clhs do-all-symbols
2017-12-06T16:28:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2017-12-06T16:28:44Z Bike: earmuffs are just a convention, but you could do that, yes.
2017-12-06T16:28:52Z Younder: and then.. filter
2017-12-06T16:29:04Z mercourisj: Bike: Right yeah, that's what I'm saying, it's my own program after all
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2017-12-06T16:29:29Z mercourisj: Shinmera: In your function, what does it mean for a symbol to special?
2017-12-06T16:29:34Z _death: (meta `(defvar ,(gensym))) ; do-all-symbols won't find it :)
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2017-12-06T16:30:24Z Bike: mercourisj: globally proclaimed special, which is what defvar does.
2017-12-06T16:30:28Z whoman: i think gensym is doing it wrong
2017-12-06T16:30:59Z Younder: Look Lisp allows you to enter a string for documantaion.  It is however optional and should be. But if the interface is documented it should be possible to figure out what function you want.
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2017-12-06T16:31:09Z whoman: what is Look Lisp?
2017-12-06T16:31:36Z Younder: whoman, sigh Look.. Lisp
2017-12-06T16:31:38Z Bike: "look" is being used as a disjunct.
2017-12-06T16:31:45Z whoman: sigh Look ??
2017-12-06T16:31:54Z Bike: don't be asinine.
2017-12-06T16:31:57Z whoman: i know. pointing at missing comma or other kind of pause
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2017-12-06T16:32:23Z whoman: .... asinine would be typing like a sloppy pig and expecting everyone to mentally compensate
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2017-12-06T16:32:46Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Okay, very cool, thank you for sharing!
2017-12-06T16:32:49Z jmercouris: I'm going to stay offline until my connection stops breaking, sorry for the lurker spam
2017-12-06T16:32:54Z whoman: and of course usually those times being the times under emotion or stress or anger, which never leads to clarity or understanding.
2017-12-06T16:32:55Z Younder: whoman, thx
2017-12-06T16:33:05Z whoman: i want to point out the word "inter-face".. =)
2017-12-06T16:33:08Z Bike: you can just say that directly.
2017-12-06T16:33:37Z whoman: not usually the kind of thing i would break my idle for sharing =)
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2017-12-06T16:34:39Z Younder: spam in the can, woman, a scam.
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2017-12-06T16:35:14Z whoman: it is understood that listing symbols is how we inter-face with lisp. which is interesting because 'graphical' user inter-faces are probably less meaningfull due to not being as linguistic as text/repl/tui
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2017-12-06T16:37:29Z flip214: I tried to subscribe to the elsconf ML; the confirmation link arrived within a minute, but there's no password or welcome message after ~15 minutes....
2017-12-06T16:37:47Z flip214: I hope someone is concerned about that!   ;)
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2017-12-06T16:40:41Z antoszka: flip214: I don't think you actually need the password to use the ML.
2017-12-06T16:41:02Z flip214: antoszka: for reading the archives I need it.
2017-12-06T16:41:15Z antoszka: Ah, okay, guess I never needed to do that.
2017-12-06T16:41:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2017-12-06T16:41:39Z flip214: Well, I'd like to get some more information, to present to my employer...
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2017-12-06T16:46:49Z flip214: ah, sorry for the noise. there's no automatic welcome mail, but "Awaiting moderator approval"
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2017-12-06T17:04:21Z Xach: Shinmera: looks good, thanks
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2017-12-06T17:42:17Z borodust: Xach: do you have a time for quick test?
2017-12-06T17:42:33Z Xach: borodust: sure
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2017-12-06T17:49:25Z borodust: Xach: thanks much for all your time
2017-12-06T17:51:04Z Xach: Looking forward to playing with it, going to write some toys and see how it goes
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2017-12-06T17:52:40Z borodust: cool! enjoy :)
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2017-12-06T17:52:56Z borodust: i'll update dist with the fix in the meantime
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2017-12-06T17:54:57Z Xach: borodust: can you populate canonical-distinfo-url?
2017-12-06T17:57:14Z borodust: Xach: hmm, not sure how i should do that
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2017-12-06T17:58:33Z Xach: are your dists indelible? can you revert to previous dists by url?
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2017-12-06T17:59:23Z borodust: nope, there's only one dist
2017-12-06T17:59:58Z Xach: then the canonical distinfo url is the same as the subscription url
2017-12-06T17:59:59Z borodust: like, i clean dist directory every time and put latest dist
2017-12-06T18:00:13Z Xach: ok. that is a different style from the "main" quicklisp dist
2017-12-06T18:00:13Z borodust: *instead
2017-12-06T18:02:31Z borodust: Xach: yeah, basically, i have no idea what i am doing
2017-12-06T18:02:51Z Xach: borodust: no worries! there are no docs yet for how to do it
2017-12-06T18:02:56Z Xach is working on some 
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2017-12-06T18:04:56Z Xach: borodust: but for quicklisp, all new stuff is added, and the old stuff stays in place, and new dists point to a mix of old and new archives
2017-12-06T18:05:27Z Xach: so one distinfo.txt is updated to point to the new system / release indexes, but the old ones stay in place pointing at older stuff
2017-12-06T18:05:41Z Xach: but there is a second distinfo.txt that never changes that matches up to that particular set of stuff
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2017-12-06T18:06:30Z borodust: Xach: how do i tell quicklisp client to choose between dist versions?
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2017-12-06T18:07:01Z Xach: borodust: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html has the guide
2017-12-06T18:07:08Z borodust: ah, thank you!
2017-12-06T18:07:19Z borodust: cool
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2017-12-06T18:34:53Z osune: Xach: is this the recommended way to enable a custom dist too?
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2017-12-06T18:35:54Z Xach: osune: install-dist is the way to do that
2017-12-06T18:36:21Z osune: thanks
2017-12-06T18:38:07Z shka: good evening
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2017-12-06T18:49:21Z phoe: I want to use a hash table for storing vectors of 16 (unsigned-byte 8)s. How should I do that? EQUALP?
2017-12-06T18:49:53Z Xach: phoe: "storing" as keys?
2017-12-06T18:49:58Z phoe: Xach: yes
2017-12-06T18:50:19Z shka: phoe: custom hash function, custom comparsion functin
2017-12-06T18:51:05Z Xach: phoe: equalp works.
2017-12-06T18:54:26Z Poeticode is now known as Poetichristmas
2017-12-06T18:55:06Z pjb: phoe: yes, you have to use equalp. Notice that if they were vectors containing strings, strings would be compared case insensively.
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2017-12-06T18:55:50Z pjb: Also: (equalp #(#\a #\b #\c) "Abc") #| --> t |#
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2017-12-06T19:22:03Z gendl: Hi, if I have an error object in a variable, how can I actually "throw" that error and land in the debugger?
2017-12-06T19:22:30Z Shinmera: SIGNAL/ERROR/WARN?
2017-12-06T19:23:00Z Bike: it's called signaling rather than throwing.
2017-12-06T19:23:11Z gendl: Bike: sorry. Ok.
2017-12-06T19:23:14Z Bike: if you aren't worried about any handlers, you can call invoke-debugger directly.
2017-12-06T19:23:29Z gendl: I have a handler-case like this:
2017-12-06T19:23:32Z Bike: but otherwise, ERROR signals and then invokes the debugger if there aren't handlers.
2017-12-06T19:24:07Z gendl: (handler-case (... some body...)  (error (err) (signal err)))
2017-12-06T19:24:12Z gendl: can I do that?
2017-12-06T19:24:20Z Bike: sure.
2017-12-06T19:24:36Z gendl: I have an existing handler-case, I want to keep it mostly the same, but just have it signal the error right now for debugging purposes.
2017-12-06T19:24:45Z jasom: gendl: handler-bind will automatically resignal if you don't have a non-local exit; this is one of several differences between bind and case
2017-12-06T19:24:54Z gendl: In production it would do something different with that error.
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2017-12-06T19:25:22Z Bike: jasom: this is slightly inaccurate- rather than resignalling, it just doesn't stop the existing signaling from continuing
2017-12-06T19:25:25Z jackdaniel: handler-bind doesn't unwind the stack (important note if you are interested in a backtrace)
2017-12-06T19:25:31Z jasom: Bike: correct
2017-12-06T19:25:46Z Bike: i mean, maybe the same result here, i don't know
2017-12-06T19:25:46Z gendl: yes, i'm interested in a backtrace.
2017-12-06T19:25:48Z jasom: gendl: if you want a backtrace for debugging you want handler-bind
2017-12-06T19:26:21Z gendl: Ok.
2017-12-06T19:26:53Z jackdaniel: nb, if you want to have backtrace and actually handle the error, you want handler-bind inside handler-case ;)
2017-12-06T19:26:54Z gendl: so I can't do what I'm trying to do by just tweaking this handler-case -
2017-12-06T19:27:00Z jasom: gendl: for logging backtraces http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/ has a pretty good out-of-the-box experience; you can literally just bind #'dissect:present and be done.
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2017-12-06T19:27:31Z gendl: jasom: thanks, I'll check it out.
2017-12-06T19:27:52Z jasom: gendl: handler-case will give you the backtrace for the scope in which the handler-case appears (the stack has already unwound to there by this point) handler-bind will have available the stacktrace at the point of the signal (the stack has yet to be unwound)
2017-12-06T19:28:20Z gendl: got it.
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2017-12-06T19:29:03Z Shinmera: As jasom mentioned, with dissect you can capture the stack information and pass it around as you want.
2017-12-06T19:29:31Z jasom: this is also why handler-bind doesn't silence the error; you need to manually unwind the stack (e.g. throw) , wherase handler-case has already unwound the stack for you.
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2017-12-06T19:42:49Z k-stz: In 64bit sbcl, fixnum are of size 2^63, this can be verified by adding `most-positive-fixnum' and `most-negative-fixnum'. That leaves a single bit (63+1) to be the lowtag identifying the type in memory.
2017-12-06T19:42:52Z k-stz: I try to understand how a single bit suffices for this, also reading the sbcl internals talks about lowtags. Where memory is dword (2x64bit) alligned and the least significant, low, 4bits of that alligned memory is used for type information.
2017-12-06T19:43:39Z shka: k-stz: either it is a fixnum or not?
2017-12-06T19:45:55Z k-stz: in sbcl all lips objects have type information in memory, so should't there be more bits to distinguish them all
2017-12-06T19:46:41Z jsnell: you can have different numbers of tag bits for different types
2017-12-06T19:46:58Z shka: well, to be fair i imagine that only fixnums and floats are worth inlining tag
2017-12-06T19:47:40Z shka: everything else is pretty much passed by reference anyway
2017-12-06T19:47:46Z k-stz: I have to admit I have no idea abou this stuff, so even basic stuff eludes me
2017-12-06T19:47:56Z jsnell: shka, that's just totally incorrect
2017-12-06T19:48:17Z shka: oh, ok
2017-12-06T19:49:30Z shka: jsnell: explain it, please
2017-12-06T19:49:33Z jsnell: k-stz: xxx0 are all fixnums; xxx1 are types of other values, with 3 bits to identify further
2017-12-06T19:52:18Z jsnell: shka: sorry,
2017-12-06T19:52:39Z jsnell: since literally everything you said is wrong, it's kind of hard to correct
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2017-12-06T19:54:21Z shka: jsnell: ok, it is understandable
2017-12-06T19:58:07Z jsnell: I guess looking at https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/compiler/generic/early-objdef.lisp would be a useful thing to look at
2017-12-06T19:58:41Z jsnell: (and it's two bits for fixnums, so shame on me)
2017-12-06T20:00:19Z k-stz: So if i understand correctly: every pointer that starts with a 0, is identified to point to a fixnum, else the next 3 bits are read to identify other types. Now these 4bit-tag are already part of the pointer to the object in the lisp-heap, because they are dword aligned, the pointer doesn't need the lower 4 bits to distinguish the 16bytes within.
2017-12-06T20:00:31Z k-stz: *that _ends_ with a 0 bit
2017-12-06T20:00:51Z shka: jsnell: this looks fascinating
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2017-12-06T20:01:49Z shka: i was awed by sbcl ever since khoung blog post with forth implementation
2017-12-06T20:02:18Z sjl: k-stz: ending with a 0 doesn't mean it points to a fixnum -- it means the fixnum is immediately encoded in the other bits
2017-12-06T20:02:21Z sjl: there is no pointer
2017-12-06T20:02:50Z k-stz: sjl: ah that makes sense! because fixnums are supposed to guard against heap allocation
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2017-12-06T20:03:04Z sjl: if by "guard against" you mean "avoid", yes
2017-12-06T20:03:10Z sjl: e.g. in > (defun foo (x) (+ 7 x))
2017-12-06T20:03:19Z k-stz: sjl: thanks, I would have missed that
2017-12-06T20:03:21Z sjl: if I (disassemble 'foo) I get
2017-12-06T20:03:23Z sjl: ; 1D:       BF0E000000       MOV EDI, 14
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2017-12-06T20:03:39Z sjl: it moves the immediate value 14 into edi before calling the + function
2017-12-06T20:04:04Z sjl: because 111 is a raw 7, and 1110 is the tagged 7
2017-12-06T20:04:26Z k-stz: sjl: great example, thank you!
2017-12-06T20:04:28Z Shinmera: sjl: You can disassemble function objects too, so just (disassemble (lambda ..))
2017-12-06T20:04:58Z sjl: Shinmera: yeah, I forget why I was in the habit of not doing that
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2017-12-06T20:11:26Z pjb: k-stz: there are other immediate values, notably characters.
2017-12-06T20:11:44Z pjb: with 8 remaining tag bits, you can have fun.
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2017-12-06T20:14:07Z k-stz: that seems clever to me, is that common implementation practice? I guess the C malloc()/free() couple implementation might use those tricks too
2017-12-06T20:14:22Z pjb: Yes, almost all implementations use this kind of tricks.
2017-12-06T20:15:12Z pjb: In one or two old implementation, the type tag was relatively to a memory page, so all the object allocated in a given page were of the same type.  But AFAIK, all implementations had immediate values, for optimization.
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2017-12-06T20:15:29Z sjl: k-stz: it's been common/around since 1966 https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2017-09-04-lisp-numbers/
2017-12-06T20:15:51Z pjb: Since the start, the first LISP implementation used this trick, which was natural on the 7090.
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2017-12-06T20:16:19Z pjb: Actually, one could say the 709/7090 was a lisp machine; it even had a EVAL I mean, XEC instruction!
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2017-12-06T20:16:52Z sjl: pjb: do you have a source for that?  the post I linked says disagrees that lisp 1/1.5 did it, and cites their manuals
2017-12-06T20:17:18Z pjb: It predates LISP, even: http://informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
2017-12-06T20:18:09Z k-stz: A the concept seems to be called "tagged pointers"
2017-12-06T20:18:22Z sjl: sure.  but according to the manuals, lisp 1/1.5 didn't do it, even if it was around beforehand
2017-12-06T20:18:46Z pjb: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4mp4oy/lisp_i_and_lisp_15_manuals_source_code/
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2017-12-06T20:22:13Z osune: I'm looking at database bindings for storing a little bit of data (3 - 4 relational tables ; ~ 300 rows each ). I would go for cl-sqlite but I've seen rucksack(http://quickdocs.org/rucksack/ ), too. Has somebody experience with this?
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2017-12-06T20:24:38Z jsnell: pjb: yes, those are the exact sources that show that those Lisp implementations did not encode immediate values in pointer values via tagging
2017-12-06T20:25:21Z pjb: It had TAGMSK and $FIX and $FLOAT to distinguish between those two types.
2017-12-06T20:25:25Z osune: or in extension plank ( http://quickdocs.org/planks/ ) ?
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2017-12-06T20:27:45Z jsnell: pjb: you have a very curious definition of immediate, I guess. a number in Lisp I is four conses + a heap-allocated raw value
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2017-12-06T20:30:38Z pjb: You may be right, indeed, MKNO conses…
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2017-12-06T20:35:43Z phoe: osune: that's not a lot of data, rucksack might be able to help you here if you're looking for a portable solution.
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2017-12-06T20:40:18Z osune: phoe: thanks. Can you give pointers on how rucksack relates to planks, too?
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2017-12-06T21:03:11Z felideon: phoe: on a cursory look, planks seems to abstract the rucksack transactions and serialization stuff.
2017-12-06T21:03:14Z felideon: err osune
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2017-12-06T21:04:01Z osune: thanks, i ll take a look at the rucksack tutorial and go from there
2017-12-06T21:04:07Z felideon: osune: so if your 4 tables map nicely to CLOS objects, planks might be worth a shot.
2017-12-06T21:04:30Z felideon: osune: glwt because the link seems to be dead, unless you found it.
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2017-12-06T21:05:18Z osune: planks didn't provide a tutorial / manual / docstrings or i missed them all ; so I was unsure what it provides
2017-12-06T21:05:50Z osune: felideon: the tutorial is in the quicklisp sources :)
2017-12-06T21:06:00Z felideon: ah cool.
2017-12-06T21:06:13Z felideon: osune: seems like https://github.com/drewc/planks/blob/master/src/persistent-objects.lisp is where the magic happens.
2017-12-06T21:06:50Z felideon: I'm assuming you want to inherit PERSISTENT-STANDARD-OBJECT when you create your classes.
2017-12-06T21:08:25Z osune: you are assuming wrong cause I have no idea what you are talking about ! This is my first dip into persistance in common lisp beside from "write it to a file", so this symbol is unkown to me.
2017-12-06T21:09:28Z osune: sorry on second thought this reads harsher than joking
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2017-12-06T21:10:16Z felideon: osune: no worries, I mispoke. I should have said 'I would imagine having to inherit'
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2017-12-06T21:10:47Z felideon: osune: That class is defined by planks, which is why it is "unknown" to you.
2017-12-06T21:13:04Z osune: ahh I see. I think I start to understand the rucksack way first, from there I hope to understand what problem planks tries to solve. Thanks for your help
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2017-12-06T21:14:08Z felideon: You might also just want to check out http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/
2017-12-06T21:14:42Z felideon: If you were to use postgres
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2017-12-06T21:16:03Z osune:  I think this is to heavy weight for my current usecase. But I keep it in mind. thanks
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2017-12-06T21:16:34Z felideon: no problem.
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2017-12-06T21:21:48Z felideon: osune: I see the tutorial now. I was wondering why class definitions had to be wrapped in transactions and the answer is in there.
2017-12-06T21:22:37Z felideon: osune: If you want another simple example, I also played with rucksack a few years ago, based on the tutorial. https://github.com/felideon/cluckin-sack/blob/master/cluckin-sack.lisp
2017-12-06T21:23:39Z osune: this will come in handy . thanks again
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2017-12-06T21:39:18Z jmercouris: instead of do-symbols is there a list of symbols I can just access?
2017-12-06T21:39:33Z Shinmera: No
2017-12-06T21:39:49Z jmercouris: Damn, I was hoping to use map or filter
2017-12-06T21:40:16Z Xach: jmercouris: what do you mean by access?
2017-12-06T21:40:27Z Shinmera: (defun package-symbols (p) (let (l) (do-symbols (s p l) (push s l))))
2017-12-06T21:40:39Z jmercouris: Xach: Exactly what Shinmera just wrote
2017-12-06T21:41:08Z Xach: ok
2017-12-06T21:41:17Z jmercouris: I need to basically make autocomplete for my describe-symbol function in my browser and I was going to limit it to *earmuff* symbols, so I wanted to just have a filter
2017-12-06T21:41:44Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I'll just do something like that I guess, thanks
2017-12-06T21:43:05Z jmercouris: Another thing I've been thinking about lately is the elisp convention of (interactive) within a defun body making the command callable by the command system, is there a way I can achieve something similar in common lisp?
2017-12-06T21:43:18Z pjb: jmercouris: of course, you can filter the result of (package-symbols), but it would be faster to filter while do-symbols, or even, to use apropos-list.
2017-12-06T21:43:40Z pjb: (apropos-list "\\*" "CL-USER") #| --> (*read-eval* … *oldest-forward-compatible-asdf-version*) |#
2017-12-06T21:43:54Z pjb: but it's not conforming, the syntax in the first argument of apropos-list is implementation dependant.
2017-12-06T21:44:59Z jmercouris: pjb: I'd like to stick with things that are standard across implementations mostly
2017-12-06T21:45:35Z jmercouris: The thing about the (interactive) within the body of the defun is, I don't understand how I'd get a reference to the current function to register it, somehow I feel like this involves a part of lisp I am unfamiliar with so far
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2017-12-06T21:45:49Z pjb: This is why you have to implement your own apropos-list or similar using do-symbols.
2017-12-06T21:46:23Z Bike: jmercouris: it'd be easier to define a, like, defun-interactive macro.
2017-12-06T21:46:28Z pjb: jmercouris: first, in CL it's written (declare (interactive)).  emacs lisp has this special case declaration (interactive).
2017-12-06T21:46:46Z pjb: jmercouris: then, indeed, non-standard declarations must be processed by your own tools.
2017-12-06T21:47:00Z Bike: which you shouldn't bother trying, it sucks
2017-12-06T21:47:02Z pjb: So if you want it to be processed when you evaluate the defun form, it must be your own defun macro.
2017-12-06T21:47:31Z Bike: you could also have a table of interactivity information, like a hash table where the keys are functions, and have a like (register-interactive function specification-goes-here)
2017-12-06T21:47:35Z jmercouris: pjb: So you're saying something like (def-interactive something ())?
2017-12-06T21:47:54Z pjb: No.  I'm saying (shadow 'defun) (defmacro defun …)
2017-12-06T21:48:08Z pjb: Otherwise, you can defmacro define-command or defcommand.
2017-12-06T21:48:14Z jmercouris: pjb: Ah, hmm seems very easy for me to make a mistake there
2017-12-06T21:48:16Z pjb: interactive functions are commands.
2017-12-06T21:48:37Z jmercouris: I like introducing new forms instead of shadowing wherever possible
2017-12-06T21:48:43Z jmercouris: I think defcommand is a good name/idea
2017-12-06T21:48:53Z pjb: Yes. I've done that already.
2017-12-06T21:49:24Z jmercouris: Bike: pjb: Thanks for the suggestions!
2017-12-06T21:49:49Z pjb: jmercouris: be careful in macros, try to avoid compilation-time stuff, since it makes it harder to compile-file.
2017-12-06T21:50:58Z jmercouris: Yeah, I will have to be careful, I've already really messed up my keybinding definition macro I think, I will probably have to redo it and simplify the definition of commands I think
2017-12-06T21:51:19Z jmercouris: It is way too obtuse, even when I am implementing new keybindings I am having to look up my own syntax
2017-12-06T21:52:27Z pjb: have a look at hemlock-interface:defcommand too.
2017-12-06T21:53:00Z Bike: stumpwm also has something like interactive.
2017-12-06T21:53:16Z Bike: https://stumpwm.github.io/git/stumpwm-git_12.html#index-defcommand
2017-12-06T21:53:26Z emaczen: I'm getting different results between SBCL and CCL -- what are some common things to check?
2017-12-06T21:53:51Z Xach: emaczen: that is a pretty broad domain
2017-12-06T21:53:51Z emaczen: common things being caches, compiler settings etc...
2017-12-06T21:53:55Z pjb: For example, hemlock-interface:defcommand doesn't defun at compilation-time so the compiler cannot know that the command is a function, so if you try to call it in other code compiled, you will get a undefined function warning…  This is bad.
2017-12-06T21:54:01Z Xach: emaczen: like arithmetic is differing?
2017-12-06T21:54:22Z pjb: But if you call the make-command function that follows at compilation-time it's bad too…
2017-12-06T21:54:34Z emaczen: Xach: No, just my code
2017-12-06T21:54:45Z jmercouris: I like the stumpwm API, maybe I will copy it
2017-12-06T21:54:46Z emaczen: Xach: I don't see why I would be getting different results?
2017-12-06T21:55:10Z Xach: emaczen: there are many differences, like in how random state works, the internal time units, etc. What kind of stuff does your code do?
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2017-12-06T21:56:17Z emaczen: there is no randomness or time in my code
2017-12-06T21:56:22Z emaczen: I'm really just building a list
2017-12-06T21:56:36Z emaczen: and in SBCL the list has length 1210 and with CCL the length is 768
2017-12-06T21:56:58Z jmercouris: emaczen: are you running both pieces of code on the same machine?
2017-12-06T21:57:05Z emaczen: jmercouris: Yes
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2017-12-06T21:57:11Z Bike: i don't think we can answer this without some specifics of what the code does.
2017-12-06T21:57:24Z Bike: like. source.
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2017-12-06T21:57:47Z Xach: emaczen: is it a list of symbols?
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2017-12-06T21:58:59Z emaczen: At the moment I'm mainly interested in looking at deleting caches or other compiler stuff that would be differnet between SBCL and CCL
2017-12-06T21:59:11Z Bike: might not even be relevant.
2017-12-06T21:59:13Z emaczen: I think I am loading the exact same code but am I? -- You know?
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2017-12-06T21:59:30Z Bike: files are only cached on your disk as fasls.
2017-12-06T21:59:32Z whoman: buildapp still in good use?
2017-12-06T21:59:48Z Bike: (load (compile-file "whatever.lisp")) will force recompilation and reload of whatever's on your disk.
2017-12-06T21:59:53Z Xach: whoman: I use it, but I think the built-in stuff in asdf does a lot of stuff and more portably too.
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2017-12-06T22:00:17Z Bike: alternately you could restart ccl and sbcl.
2017-12-06T22:00:28Z whoman: Xach, alright cool. (just looking to make custom toplevel/repl binary for slime.)
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2017-12-06T22:01:01Z emaczen: I've deleted ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2017-12-06T22:01:07Z emaczen: I've restarted both CCL and SBCL
2017-12-06T22:01:18Z Bike: so it's probably the same code.
2017-12-06T22:01:27Z emaczen: And I've been using (asdf:load-system :system :force t)
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2017-12-06T22:02:05Z Bike: something to notice here is that the caching is done by asdf rather than by your implementation.
2017-12-06T22:02:35Z Bike: so what else are you doing? calling any libraries that use implementation details? getting into the package system? what?
2017-12-06T22:02:44Z Bike: there are a million ways code could work differently between implementations
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2017-12-06T22:04:30Z emaczen: Bike: I'm using a fair bit of macros,
2017-12-06T22:04:50Z emaczen: There is some gensyming
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2017-12-06T22:05:15Z emaczen: I still just find it hard to believe that the list can be 442 elements smaller
2017-12-06T22:05:30Z osune: did we have a netsplit ?
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2017-12-06T22:05:44Z Bike: none of that is relevant
2017-12-06T22:05:50Z Bike: just tell us what you are doing
2017-12-06T22:05:58Z Bike: is it proprietary? what?
2017-12-06T22:07:13Z emaczen: It is too complicated both in ammount of code and in english description
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2017-12-06T22:07:29Z Bike: that's why i asked for possible implementation specific stuff
2017-12-06T22:08:07Z emaczen: Bike: I can't think of any implementation specific parts in my code
2017-12-06T22:08:17Z emaczen: Maybe I'll do a search just to verify
2017-12-06T22:08:32Z Bike: does it use any libraries?
2017-12-06T22:08:41Z Bike: it doesn't seem like you have a sense for what is implementation specific
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2017-12-06T22:10:08Z emaczen: Bike: No libraries other than :closer-mop which I load by default
2017-12-06T22:10:08Z emaczen:  
2017-12-06T22:10:11Z emaczen: always
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2017-12-06T22:10:45Z emaczen: Give me a few examples of implementation specific attributes of common-lisp
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2017-12-06T22:12:32Z Xach: specialized array types
2017-12-06T22:12:36Z Xach: fixnum size
2017-12-06T22:12:53Z Xach: valid external formats
2017-12-06T22:13:03Z Bike: mop, which packages exist, number of symbols in packages other than CL
2017-12-06T22:13:11Z Xach: limits, like call-arguments-limit
2017-12-06T22:13:35Z pjb: lisp-implementation-type, lisp-implementation-version
2017-12-06T22:13:45Z pjb: and of course, *features*
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2017-12-06T22:14:18Z Xach ponders a fingerprinter based on checking all such things
2017-12-06T22:15:22Z emaczen: Is there something to check all packages loaded?
2017-12-06T22:15:31Z Bike: (list-all-packages)
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2017-12-06T22:18:07Z Xach: emaczen: it is cruel to string me along like this :( i am dying to know what is going on!
2017-12-06T22:18:21Z Xach: i would read 500 pages of code to figure out the puzzle
2017-12-06T22:18:28Z Xach: perhaps 5000
2017-12-06T22:18:44Z emaczen: Xach: Dang I'm getting lazy then...
2017-12-06T22:19:03Z jasom: also any symbols not in CL that are in CL-USER
2017-12-06T22:19:17Z jasom: e.g. cl-user:QUIT
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2017-12-06T22:19:49Z emaczen: Xach: I'm inspecting, trying to find reasonable discrepancies, taking educated shots in the dark!
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2017-12-06T22:20:21Z Xach: emaczen: but no code sharing no matter what?
2017-12-06T22:20:30Z Xach: i don't mind, but it would help me stop caring
2017-12-06T22:21:08Z emaczen: Xach: not today
2017-12-06T22:21:18Z Xach: ok
2017-12-06T22:21:23Z Xach feels released 
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2017-12-06T22:22:47Z jasom: emaczen: what happens when you modify literals (if you use backtick you may have literals and not realize it)
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2017-12-06T22:23:06Z emaczen: jasom: Huh?
2017-12-06T22:23:33Z jasom: emaczen: e.g. (setf (cdr '(1 2 3)) nil) can be different between implementations
2017-12-06T22:23:54Z jasom: emaczen: with macros you can end up doing that accidentally pretty easily
2017-12-06T22:24:15Z emaczen: jasom: Oh so I should double check ` and ,?
2017-12-06T22:24:17Z jasom: emaczen: if sbcl has no style-warnings then you are less likely to be doing it though.
2017-12-06T22:24:26Z pjb: Indeed, on some implementation, it can fail because you try to modify read-only data.
2017-12-06T22:25:02Z jasom: and on other implementations it may cause all appearances of '(1 2 3) to behave like '(1) afterwards
2017-12-06T22:28:46Z Bike: undefined behavior more generally, of course
2017-12-06T22:28:57Z Bike: a good fraction of the million ways
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2017-12-06T22:37:06Z emaczen: well, I may have narrowed it down to a specific function of mine, SBCL always returns the same thing, whereas CCL does not and CCLs return value is very different each time...
2017-12-06T22:37:27Z emaczen: I still have no idea why or which implementation defined feature is causing it, but I'm getting there
2017-12-06T22:37:46Z Bike: paste the function?
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2017-12-06T22:45:23Z emaczen: I will if I really can't figure it out -- if I pasted it, you would need a lot of other code still
2017-12-06T22:45:59Z Xach: we can do it!!
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2017-12-06T22:52:07Z rumbler31: did he finally paste some code?
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2017-12-06T23:13:24Z jmercouris: How do I convert a symbol to a string?
2017-12-06T23:14:03Z jmercouris: I have something like do-symbols in a list of symbols, I want to turn that list of symbols to a list of strings
2017-12-06T23:14:51Z Bike: you can use symbol-name to get the name of the symbol as a string.
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2017-12-06T23:15:00Z Bike: do you need the name of the package also?
2017-12-06T23:15:22Z jmercouris: Bike: not for now, I'll just always assume the user is in my package
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2017-12-06T23:32:13Z Xach: it is interesting that you can make a web browser without knowing how to get a symbol name as a string.
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2017-12-06T23:39:50Z whoman: we cant all make food but we can all eat it ?
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2017-12-06T23:40:19Z jasom: what does "foreign function syscall" imply in a sbcl profile result?
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2017-12-06T23:40:38Z jasom: jmercouris: symbols are also string designators so you can just do e.g. (string 'foo)
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2017-12-07T00:05:16Z jmercouris: given this repl: https://gist.github.com/8deb84fc86ecf022f9704591e4fe7bed
2017-12-07T00:05:40Z jmercouris: how can I access CL-STRING-MATCH::MATCH: "lol"
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2017-12-07T00:07:04Z Bike: look at the docs for cl-string-match and see what the provided accessors are
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2017-12-07T00:07:30Z jmercouris: Bike: I was hoping I had missed something, okay will do
2017-12-07T00:07:33Z pjb: I would type (lspack :cl-string-match t)
2017-12-07T00:07:49Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:lspack
2017-12-07T00:08:07Z jasom: blargh.  Suggestions for debugging compiler macros?  Specifically cffi:foreign-alloc appears to be not expanding to a fast path
2017-12-07T00:08:25Z pjb: add print expressions.
2017-12-07T00:08:28Z Bike: you want to determine whether or not it's expanding?
2017-12-07T00:08:39Z pjb: compiler macros are not necessarily used by an implementation.
2017-12-07T00:09:03Z Bike: jmercouris: (describe (find-class 'cl-string-match:re-match)) might also be informative.
2017-12-07T00:09:10Z pjb: Otherwise, to debug it, you can just call it directly (extrating the body in a normal function).
2017-12-07T00:09:22Z pjb: or (documentation  'cl-string-match:re-match 'function)
2017-12-07T00:09:39Z jasom: Bike: yes
2017-12-07T00:09:53Z Bike: probably i'd just add prints, yeah
2017-12-07T00:10:09Z jasom: Bike: well I know it's not expandingas expected because I end up with foreign-alloc on the stac rather than %foreign-alloc
2017-12-07T00:10:30Z Bike: so you want to know why?
2017-12-07T00:10:38Z Bike: i'd macroexpand things and see if there's a notinline
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2017-12-07T00:16:41Z jasom: I found it eventually; the compiler macro was slightly more stupid than I thought
2017-12-07T00:17:21Z jasom: specifically if you specify initial contents, then it completely loses all optimizations for the type being constant
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2017-12-07T00:21:41Z jasom: I changed my with-foreign-alloc macro to perform the initialization of the memory manually and got a ~1000X speedup
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2017-12-07T00:24:12Z Bike: so with constant type and unconstant but specified count you'd want it to expand to `(%foreign-alloc (* ,count ,(foreign-type-size (eval type))))?
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2017-12-07T00:24:40Z Bike: for initial contents you'd have to once-only the contents and take the length, i guess.
2017-12-07T00:24:52Z Bike: ...and then initialize it.
2017-12-07T00:26:56Z jmercouris: Why does find-symbol ALWAYS return nil on a known symbol found in do-symbols?
2017-12-07T00:27:37Z jmercouris: Damn, it is case sensitive
2017-12-07T00:27:41Z jmercouris: I would have never guessed
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2017-12-07T00:40:05Z Xach: case-sensitive, case-folding
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2017-12-07T01:06:00Z Ober: huh. 'At the request of John McCarthy, Lisp’s creator, no single language that is a member of the Lisp family is to be intended to be the definitive dialect; that is, none is to be called just “LISP.” '
2017-12-07T01:13:55Z k-stz: we do speak of lisp dialects and of languages being part of the lisp family
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2017-12-07T01:17:08Z kini: and yet here we are in a channel called #lisp where the topic says "Common Lisp" :)
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2017-12-07T01:22:29Z Bike: luckily, we call it "lisp" instead of "LISP"
2017-12-07T01:23:06Z Devon: One Lisp to rule them all
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2017-12-07T01:29:07Z k-stz: another tagged pointer example: (setf *a* (1+ most-positive-fixnum) *b* (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) (eq *a* *b*) => nil, but set *a* and *b* to the same fixnum number then (eq *a* *b*) ==> T ! For sbcl at least, because EQ does pointer comparison. I guess, then, with EQ one can test if a value is represented by an immediate tag pointer
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2017-12-07T01:36:41Z Bike: informally, maybe.
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2017-12-07T01:41:23Z aeth: There's nothing restricting with-accessors to only be for accessors to CLOS objects, is there? It says undefined, but it should in most if not all implementations just be a trivial symbol-macrolet. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm
2017-12-07T01:42:48Z Bike: it says "accessor", which is broader than CLOS. i guess.
2017-12-07T01:42:58Z Bike: oh, but "slots" also.
2017-12-07T01:43:11Z aeth: I'm just wondering if it's also usable for structs
2017-12-07T01:43:14Z aeth: Which also have accessors
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2017-12-07T01:43:31Z Bike: well, they have slots, so sure
2017-12-07T01:44:58Z aeth: yeah, I was wondering that
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2017-12-07T01:45:55Z aeth: I'll probably copy the basic symbol-macrolet pattern (and change it slightly) for things that don't necessarily have that slot concept
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2017-12-07T01:47:01Z Bike: if an implementation did actually restrict it to standard objects, you could probably decently make a case against that to them
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2017-12-07T01:47:54Z aeth: Do generics apply to both standard CLOS objects and struct objects?
2017-12-07T01:48:05Z aeth: If they do, that would be a good case against special casing CLOS objects.
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2017-12-07T01:50:41Z Bike: er, what?
2017-12-07T01:50:44Z Bike: "apply to"?
2017-12-07T01:55:11Z aeth: Sorry, I mean, you can do (defmethod meh ((foo foo) x) (values foo x)) and that's separate from (defmethod meh (y x) y) with the former being (FOO T) and the latter being (T T). Also, you can do (class-of (make-foo)) and get a structure-class just like you can do (class-of (make-instance 'bar)) and get a standard-class.
2017-12-07T01:55:38Z aeth: So they're definitely instances of a class with slots and accessors.
2017-12-07T01:57:50Z Bike: structure objects are certainly instances of a structure class, and structures are described as having slots and accessors. the question is whether with-accessors means the general senses of those terms or the CLOS-specific senses.
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2017-12-07T01:58:38Z aeth: I guess my (failed) argument is that defmethod uses the broader sense.
2017-12-07T01:59:43Z aeth: Although I don't think that would apply to my particular case, where I want to use it on a vector struct. I could definitely see this potentially failing.
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2017-12-07T02:04:23Z Bike: what does defmethod have to do with anything?
2017-12-07T02:08:49Z aeth: It's a bad argument because CL is already inconsistent, so arguing that something would keep things simple and consistent wouldn't really be relevant in an interpretation of the specification.
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2017-12-07T03:16:21Z pfdietz: The random tester appears to have exhausted itself on sbcl.  Ah well, the latest campaign was fun while it lasted.  Interesting how bugs can breed over time.
2017-12-07T03:19:44Z pfdietz: BTW, I would argue that
2017-12-07T03:19:53Z pfdietz: slot is very broadly defined in the CL spec
2017-12-07T03:20:18Z pfdietz: "slot n. a component of an object that can store a value."
2017-12-07T03:20:42Z pfdietz: "object n. 1. any Lisp datum. ``The function cons creates an object which refers to two other objects.''"
2017-12-07T03:22:18Z pfdietz: "accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer."
2017-12-07T03:22:32Z Zhivago: What is the argument about?
2017-12-07T03:23:16Z pfdietz: "access n., [...]  2. n. (of a place) an attempt to access[1] the value of the place."
2017-12-07T03:23:30Z pfdietz: Whether WITH-ACCESSORS applies just to standard objects.
2017-12-07T03:24:50Z pfdietz: I think (with-accessors ((x car) (y cdr)) (cons 1 2) (values x y)) ==> 1, 2  would be valid.
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2017-12-07T03:27:03Z Zhivago: Sounds reasonable to me -- it looks like a convenience for establishing a symbol-macrolet.
2017-12-07T03:27:50Z Zhivago: Is there an interesting counter-argument?
2017-12-07T03:28:50Z Bike: I thought maybe it could do CLOS-specific optimizations like using more direct slot access when possible, but it seems to pretty specifically invoke the given accessors.
2017-12-07T03:30:26Z whoman: hmm what is this error from MOP - forward referenced class? not sure how that is going on
2017-12-07T03:30:57Z whoman: nevermind, intuited
2017-12-07T03:31:19Z Bike: (defclass foo (bar) ()): if bar is undefined when this is evaluated, it's forward-referenced.
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2017-12-07T03:46:42Z loke: pfdietz: When you are making guesses it's always good to check the spec first.
2017-12-07T03:47:04Z loke: pfdietz: CLHS has the following to say about WITH-ACCESSORS: “The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance.”
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2017-12-07T03:53:08Z aeth: That adds "instance", which does complicate things a bit.
2017-12-07T03:54:26Z loke: aeth: “instance” is defined as: “instance n. 1. a direct instance. 2. a generalized instance. 3. an indirect instance.]
2017-12-07T03:54:40Z loke: “direct instance n. (of a class C) an object whose class is C itself, rather than some subclass of C. ``The function make-instance always returns a direct instance of the class which is (or is named by) its first argument.''”
2017-12-07T03:55:01Z loke: “generalized instance n. (of a class) an object the class of which is either that class itself, or some subclass of that class. (Because of the correspondence between types and classes, the term ``generalized instance of X'' implies ``object of type X'' and in cases where X is a class (or class name) the reverse is also true. The former terminology emphasizes the view of X as a class while the latter emphasizes the view of X as a type
2017-12-07T03:55:01Z loke: specifier.)”
2017-12-07T03:55:16Z loke: “indirect instance n. (of a class C1) an object of class C2, where C2 is a subclass of C1. ``An integer is an indirect instance of the class number.''”
2017-12-07T03:55:51Z loke: Now here's the fun part...
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2017-12-07T03:56:07Z loke: Let's look at the definition of “accessor:
2017-12-07T03:56:11Z aeth: It definitely looks like with-accessors should work on any accessor with a reader (foo x) and (setf (foo x) new-object) writer, e.g. cxr
2017-12-07T03:56:27Z loke: “accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.”
2017-12-07T03:56:33Z aeth: The HyperSpec states all the cxr things are accessors. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2017-12-07T03:56:47Z aeth: with-accessors won't work when the writer isn't a setf writer, will it?
2017-12-07T03:57:14Z aeth: there wouldn't be any way to feed in a new-value
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2017-12-07T03:57:54Z loke: aeth: Yes. There is a non-normative note in the documenation for WITH-ACCESSORS suggesting the typical implementation is simply a MACROLET
2017-12-07T03:57:59Z loke: I mean SYMBOL-MACROLET
2017-12-07T03:58:41Z aeth: accessors are definitely something that the spec gets right imo. reader (foo ...) and writer (setf (foo ...) new-object) symmetry, that can apply to just about anything.
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2017-12-07T03:59:20Z aeth: Isn't everything an instance since everything has a class, and so with-accessors should really just work on everything with a conventional accessor pair?
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2017-12-07T04:00:02Z loke: aeth: That's the thing. That reading is certainly a valid one... Here's the documentation for "accessor":
2017-12-07T04:00:08Z loke: “accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.”
2017-12-07T04:00:23Z loke: “access n., v.t. 1. v.t. (a place, or array) to read[1] or write[1] the value of the place or an element of the array. 2. n. (of a place) an attempt to access[1] the value of the place.”
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2017-12-07T04:00:49Z Bike: just do it for structs and see if any implementation breaks it.
2017-12-07T04:01:07Z aeth: It seems natural that with-accessors is an abstraction over conventional/idiomatic CL accessors. (And that's probably one reason why it's better than with-slots, it's abstract.)
2017-12-07T04:01:21Z aeth: Bike: After this conversation, I'm tempted to do it over anything that has accessors, not just structs.
2017-12-07T04:01:23Z loke: Bike: Sounds unlikely. Why would any implementation deviate from the standard SYMBOL-MACROLET implementation?
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2017-12-07T04:01:40Z Bike: of course it's unlikely, that's why i'm saying to do it
2017-12-07T04:01:55Z Bike: throw caution to the fucking wind and do a programming thing
2017-12-07T04:02:03Z Bike: live on the edge
2017-12-07T04:02:28Z aeth: with-accessors on anything with well-defined accessors (i.e. a matching setf foo for any given foo) seems reasonable
2017-12-07T04:03:11Z loke can pretty much guarantee that it'll work on all implementations, regardless of whether it's allowed by the spec or not.
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2017-12-07T04:03:21Z aeth: The implementation is trivial (although SBCL, CCL, and ECL all have slight differences in the macroexpand-1, try it!), so there probably could be an implementation-specific workaround on implementations that don't use this interpretation.
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2017-12-07T04:03:58Z loke: But, if the original intent of WITH-ACCESSORS was to be allowed for anything, what is the meaning of this statement: “The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance.”
2017-12-07T04:04:28Z aeth: yes
2017-12-07T04:04:38Z loke: I guess they are referring to something with (WITH-ACCESSORS ((foo print)) x (foo))
2017-12-07T04:04:49Z loke: That would kinda work, I guess.
2017-12-07T04:05:05Z loke: (minus the extra parens around foo
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2017-12-07T04:07:12Z aeth: Two possibilities. (1) they were opening the door for optimizations or (2) they were opening the door for the trivial implementation, which technically makes things work for non-accessors like print.
2017-12-07T04:07:28Z aeth: Technically, #2 is a bit of #1, too, since checking would be slower
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2017-12-07T04:45:53Z aeth: I really like the CL concept of accessors. Compared across languages, even. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutator_method
2017-12-07T04:46:11Z aeth: it doesn't look like anything really comes close
2017-12-07T04:47:12Z aeth: It seems like almost every language prefers boilerplate
2017-12-07T04:51:24Z Zhivago: Alternately you can see it as other languages preferring not to pollute their function namespace.
2017-12-07T04:52:03Z Zhivago: Since given a.b or whatever you can always produce foo_b(a).
2017-12-07T04:52:44Z whoman: accessors to what? lisp is just lists ..
2017-12-07T04:52:47Z Zhivago: Of course, then you need some boiler plate to make something like foo_b(a) = c work, or you need another explicit function. like foo_b_set(a, b).
2017-12-07T04:52:56Z Zhivago: whoman: Are you delusional or just stupid?
2017-12-07T04:53:23Z Zhivago: whoman: What does make-hash-table produce?
2017-12-07T04:55:52Z Zhivago: It would be nice if CL had first class places, though.
2017-12-07T04:57:32Z Bike: meaning manipulable objects instead of just macrology?
2017-12-07T04:58:50Z Zhivago: Yeah, something you could pass around. You can always wrap a use of a place in a lambda, but then you need one for each kind of use.
2017-12-07T04:59:49Z Devon: Some lists have first-class locatives.
2017-12-07T04:59:57Z Devon: lists/lisps
2017-12-07T05:00:14Z Zhivago: Although I guess you could do that and then use that object as a place which forwarded.
2017-12-07T05:01:14Z aeth: whoman: (defun lists-have-accessors-too (list) (flet ((caddddr (x) (cadddr (cdr x)))) (with-accessors ((first car) (second cadr) (third caddr) (fourth cadddr) (fifth caddddr)) list (values first second third fourth fifth))))
2017-12-07T05:01:48Z Zhivago: Devon: Yeah, I'm not sure why they went out of fashion -- but I suspect it's because they didn't support place semantics.
2017-12-07T05:06:54Z aeth: Zhivago: You indirectly raise a good question. Does the spec allow implementing everything (including hash tables) as lists? (Not like anyone should try to do this, though!)
2017-12-07T05:07:28Z aeth: Zhivago: Can you provide a code example of what you'd want?
2017-12-07T05:07:41Z Zhivago: No, since then class-of or type-of would not produce the expected results.
2017-12-07T05:07:58Z Zhivago: You would need at least a class carrying header to wrap the list.
2017-12-07T05:09:02Z aeth: Zhivago: or just make the car a symbol that means that it's a hash-table. Any list without a type symbol in the car is a regular list
2017-12-07T05:10:09Z Zhivago: That would be one way to implement a class carrying header.
2017-12-07T05:10:51Z Zhivago: But that cons wouldn't be a cons anymore.
2017-12-07T05:12:43Z aeth: true
2017-12-07T05:14:48Z Zhivago: Sometimes I wonder if starting with dictionaries and then adding schema to them would have produced a better outcome.
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2017-12-07T05:22:19Z Zhivago: To be honest, I'm not sure that first class places matter, really.
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2017-12-07T05:23:07Z Zhivago: They're probably just one of those things that sounds like a good idea until you really think about it.
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2017-12-07T05:24:22Z Zhivago: A bit like transparent persistence and not having processes.
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2017-12-07T05:33:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-07T06:08:17Z emaczen: morning beach
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2017-12-07T06:09:38Z beach is watching the video of McCLIM made by jackdaniel.
2017-12-07T06:09:56Z beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfBmRsPRdGg
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2017-12-07T06:14:05Z pfdietz: One can defined a pseudo-pointer class in CL.  It would hold reader and writer functions for some actual place.  Define DEREF and (SETF DEREF) methods for it.
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2017-12-07T06:16:14Z dmiles: "class-of or type-of would not produce the expected results."  I am litterally stuffing  classof and typeof ijn the objects properties
2017-12-07T06:17:37Z dmiles: so i can use structs/lists/pldicts/hastables as the objects
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2017-12-07T06:20:50Z dmiles: (get-opv a-similar-point) ==> ((typeof . POINT)(classof . claz_u_point)(ref . #<claz_u_point 5>)(sname . "znst_5")(instance . claz_u_point)(x . 3)(y . -4)(z . 12) )
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2017-12-07T06:22:16Z dmiles: (get-opv 'sym) ==> ((classof . claz_symbol)(name . "SYM")(PACKAGE . #<PACKAGE COMMON-LISP-USER>)(typeof . SYMBOL) )
2017-12-07T06:22:58Z dmiles: my symbols are just standard objects
2017-12-07T06:23:16Z dmiles: well everyhitng but conses are
2017-12-07T06:23:20Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-12-07T06:23:38Z Zhivago: dmiles: Sure -- you can do that.
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2017-12-07T06:24:25Z Zhivago: Although it is incredibly inefficient.
2017-12-07T06:25:13Z Zhivago: The point being that if you re-use something but have class-of report something else, then it no-longer has the semantics of what you were re-using.
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2017-12-07T06:25:47Z dmiles: well i wanted to proably switch out the underlying structure as i get more experience
2017-12-07T06:25:59Z Zhivago: A fine goal.
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2017-12-07T06:26:40Z dmiles: i started out using asserted relations (typically that is the fastest) ... but it was messing with my setcdrs
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2017-12-07T06:28:11Z dmiles: now i on first setf move the property onto the dictionary .. so symbol-plist and values are on the dictionary
2017-12-07T06:28:36Z dmiles: typeof/clasof are still in the  soops:o_p_v/3 asserta database
2017-12-07T06:28:44Z Zhivago: DOn't you define suitably abstracted operators on this data structure?
2017-12-07T06:29:19Z dmiles: yes.. sinc ei am abdtracted i dont actualyl think about the real storage
2017-12-07T06:29:58Z Zhivago: Good :)
2017-12-07T06:30:00Z dmiles: i just use:  get_opv/3 set_opv/3
2017-12-07T06:30:19Z borodust: Xach: i've updated the dist, trivial-gamekit should work on retina too
2017-12-07T06:30:22Z dmiles: (i just mentioning it because i wonder if i'd be happy ever putitng oeverthing on one datastructure)
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2017-12-07T06:32:25Z dmiles: oh where i was going is that i have sometimes a tree of storage   pacakge[string]->symbol->value->classof
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2017-12-07T06:33:07Z dmiles: and it is tempting to let them tree up
2017-12-07T06:33:32Z dmiles: so i can feel like i have real places
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2017-12-07T06:38:07Z dmiles: some props i jsut synthesize there:  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/soops.pl#L372-L394
2017-12-07T06:40:22Z dmiles: the language does at least come with a locative :P https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/typeof.pl#L21
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2017-12-07T06:53:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Very nice video!  Thanks!
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2017-12-07T07:00:35Z dmiles: has anyone done a setf expander that is based solely on gettign first class locatives?
2017-12-07T07:02:40Z dmiles: i am temped to continue doing it traditionally first  with (get-setf-expander ..) returning a function call.. but would be nice so see something else
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2017-12-07T07:05:02Z dmiles: in prolog a variable, is insufficent was a locative i have to use  '$LOC'(TermPtr,Offset) % a bit like C.. but at leas the GC moves my pointers
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2017-12-07T07:07:59Z dmiles: so it looks like:     TermPtr = cons(a,b),  L = $LOC'(TermPtr,2),  set_locative(L,b2),  to  'replcd
2017-12-07T07:09:18Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks, my first video tutorial
2017-12-07T07:11:45Z beach: Congratulations!
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2017-12-07T07:14:13Z dmiles: oh cool! .. Daniel :)
2017-12-07T07:14:40Z dmiles: we like like twins.. left handed ahskenazi russian jews in family tree i can see
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2017-12-07T07:15:31Z jackdaniel: I'm sorry, I don't understand the last sentence
2017-12-07T07:15:38Z jackdaniel: could you elaborate?
2017-12-07T07:19:12Z beach: jackdaniel: He is making statements about your ancestors and your dexterity, as compared to his own.
2017-12-07T07:19:51Z jackdaniel: ah, you mean we look similar? heh
2017-12-07T07:20:11Z jackdaniel: in fact, I'm both handed, but I was left handed when I was a little
2017-12-07T07:20:55Z dmiles was watching video.. looked back at IRC just now
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2017-12-07T07:22:24Z dmiles: There is a very strong genetic line that has moved in and accrossed europe over the centuries.. many of the people ended up in russia (my fammily did)
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2017-12-07T07:23:14Z dmiles: The head of Cycorp and many many programmers that have been hired at cycorp have ended up comming from this genetic line
2017-12-07T07:23:56Z Zhivago: And you ask why people talk about Jewish conspiracies.
2017-12-07T07:24:45Z dmiles: most of us are either left handed or close to it.. actually a few yearts ago at a dinner  25 out of 28 of us relize we are all left handed
2017-12-07T07:24:50Z jackdaniel: heh, ftr I'm not Jewish, but I can join the conspiracy ;)
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2017-12-07T07:25:57Z Zhivago: Of course, there is the high comorbidity rate with that group, so ymmv.
2017-12-07T07:26:22Z jackdaniel checks comorbidity word in his dictionary
2017-12-07T07:27:03Z dmiles: yeah.. i was trying to confirm it was "a thing" i could point jackdaniel's to and ran acrossed the high mobidity rate :(
2017-12-07T07:27:34Z jackdaniel: so many hard words
2017-12-07T07:27:53Z jackdaniel: mobidity is not found in my dictionary
2017-12-07T07:28:05Z Zhivago: comorbidity and morbidity are different.
2017-12-07T07:28:12Z dmiles: ah
2017-12-07T07:28:12Z jackdaniel: but I think we are getting offtopic
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2017-12-07T07:44:16Z jackdaniel: Xach: regarding top 100 downloaded projects in Quicklisp: you count raw downloads, or things which are quickloaded? For instance if I type (ql:quickload 'foo) and foo depends on alexandria (so both are downloaded) – is the counter increased for both foo and alexandria?
2017-12-07T07:44:59Z jackdaniel: I would find very useful count for top-level system downloads too
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2017-12-07T07:52:40Z aeth: This... is incredible really. I can copy the basic concept of with-accessors (let above a symbol-macrolet above the body) and abstract everything, with the only issue being that M-. doesn't like it, i.e. M-. looks for the definition of the symbol and fails to find it because the symbol is just a shorthand for some accessor-like form.
2017-12-07T07:53:40Z aeth: (M-. also fails in with-accessors if you use a name other than the accessor name)
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2017-12-07T07:59:12Z borodust: Xach: also, please, check if this example blob works for you https://goo.gl/wH6Fok
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2017-12-07T08:09:15Z jdz: jackdaniel: pretty sure the stats count raw downloads.
2017-12-07T08:09:55Z jdz: (Pretty sure nobody quickloads rfc2388 without hunchentoot.)
2017-12-07T08:10:34Z jdz: Pretty sure I use pretty sure too much.
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2017-12-07T08:13:21Z loke: jdz: I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
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2017-12-07T08:14:20Z jackdaniel: sure, pretty thanks!
2017-12-07T08:14:30Z jdz: Then we'll have to wait for what Xach has to say.
2017-12-07T08:15:15Z jackdaniel: it is said in the post on planet lisp "raw downloads"
2017-12-07T08:15:19Z XachX: Raw downloads not quick loads
2017-12-07T08:15:26Z jackdaniel: I'm more curious if he is interested in adding another stat
2017-12-07T08:15:30Z jackdaniel: oh, you're here
2017-12-07T08:15:39Z XachX: It is 3am. Shhhh.
2017-12-07T08:15:47Z jackdaniel: heheh
2017-12-07T08:15:48Z XachX: Zzz
2017-12-07T08:15:57Z jackdaniel: sleep well
2017-12-07T08:16:24Z hajovonta: hi all
2017-12-07T08:16:49Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
2017-12-07T08:17:01Z jdz: Now I'm pretty sure loke was not talking about quicklisp.
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2017-12-07T08:18:39Z loke: jdz: I'm pretty sure I was referring to your use of pretty sure.
2017-12-07T08:19:37Z jdz is now 99.8% sure all outstanding issues on #lisp are settled.
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2017-12-07T08:21:56Z whoman: 99.8% is pretty sure ?
2017-12-07T08:22:10Z aeth: All that's left to settle is how many ;s to put at a comment that serves as a section title within a long file.
2017-12-07T08:22:30Z loke: aeth: three
2017-12-07T08:23:02Z aeth: so four ;s only go at the top of a file?
2017-12-07T08:23:05Z hajovonta: please help: I have an error starting slime:
2017-12-07T08:23:06Z jdz: whoman: nah, pretty sure is like 92.3%.
2017-12-07T08:23:06Z hajovonta: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 11749(tid 140737353733888):
2017-12-07T08:23:06Z hajovonta: can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
2017-12-07T08:23:14Z hajovonta: but the core file is there.
2017-12-07T08:24:01Z whoman: =P
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2017-12-07T08:25:17Z whoman: i have a feeling that some people have gone crazy or are going crazy with lisp. shoehorning it into how they are thinking, rather than kind of meeting half way. there is a secret whispering in the clay to be sculpted into this or that shape ... just got to listen... and get a decent keyboard.. =)
2017-12-07T08:25:18Z jdz: 99.8% is more like "almost certain".
2017-12-07T08:25:34Z whoman: hmm i feel that almost is nearer 90%
2017-12-07T08:26:09Z whoman: quite sure feels around 95%, fairly is lower than 90% say 80-85%
2017-12-07T08:26:18Z jdz: But that's "almost sure", not "almost certain", right?
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2017-12-07T08:26:37Z whoman: i wonder how the Matrix would benefit from our human intervention of giving values to numbers. especially them pretty pesky pickly adjectivies
2017-12-07T08:26:51Z whoman: ahh yes. adjusting
2017-12-07T08:27:15Z whoman: literally pushes past 100% these days
2017-12-07T08:28:29Z jdz: More so if "like, whoa!" is added.
2017-12-07T08:28:43Z whoman: if we cannot work out our problems linguistically aka symbolically, i strongly feel certainly confident that surely we are getting too deep into the self-projected communal holograms
2017-12-07T08:28:56Z whoman: but like its like she said and im like whoa
2017-12-07T08:29:05Z whoman: haha oh !
2017-12-07T08:29:20Z whoman: 'wow, are you serious'
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2017-12-07T08:30:44Z whoman: lists/trees of words/symbols, which mean different at different times and contexts; eval, compile, read, write, etc... this lisp thing should be rationed to the common folk. digital acid over here
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2017-12-07T08:33:39Z whoman: people be getting all stuck up in that there them ideas and ideals of real words meaning real things. its good to experiment. programmers are magicians =) the current alchemy is to.. something human something computer something earth something science... well breaking habits. we should give ourselves more credit - look at all of this stuff we made !! holy hell what potential is life! ahem i hope everyone is inspired to their magnum opus
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2017-12-07T08:39:35Z shrdlu68: Hello, is anyone aware of a library that has functionality for generating combinations with repitions?
2017-12-07T08:40:36Z shrdlu68: That is, generating combinations from '(a b c) of length 2 should generate '(c c)
2017-12-07T08:41:19Z shrdlu68: And either '(a b) or '(b a), but not both.
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2017-12-07T08:53:59Z mrSpec: shrdlu68: I don't. But you know that you can use remove-duplicates with :test #'set-equal? ;)
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2017-12-07T08:54:38Z alandipert: does anyone have ideas about how i could further speed the ev2! function? https://github.com/alandipert/advent-of-code-2017/blob/master/day05.lisp
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2017-12-07T08:55:54Z alandipert: i tried inlining it in the run function, but that didn't seem to make any difference, so stuck with funcall
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2017-12-07T08:58:35Z hajovonta: mrSpec: that would not remove one of '(a b) and '(b a) because these are not identical.
2017-12-07T08:59:00Z hajovonta: or ... ?
2017-12-07T09:00:29Z XachX: hajovonta: try without ~?
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2017-12-07T09:01:40Z aeth: alandipert: That's because input is a global variable, and those are going to be slow because they're not lexical (or at least, the portable ones aren't)
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2017-12-07T09:02:11Z aeth: They should always be surrounded by *s so you know they're special, i.e. *input*
2017-12-07T09:02:46Z alandipert: aeth hm, but on line 33 i copy-seq it to a local
2017-12-07T09:02:48Z hajovonta: XachX: even with custom test function, it's probably better to come up with a smart generation algorithm from a performance viewpoint
2017-12-07T09:02:56Z mrSpec: hajovonta: (set-equal '(a b) '(b a)) → t
2017-12-07T09:03:05Z mrSpec: ,clhs set-equal
2017-12-07T09:03:16Z hajovonta: mrSpec: didn't know that, thanks
2017-12-07T09:03:35Z aeth: alandipert: why so many copies? You copy it twice, once when you convert it into a vector and then again with copy-seq
2017-12-07T09:04:50Z alandipert: aeth because ev2! mutates it.. i'm not sure the copies dominate since they're not in the hot loop (lines 36-37)
2017-12-07T09:05:12Z alandipert just tested not copying at all, runtime is same
2017-12-07T09:06:24Z aeth: and you tried inlining the functions already? hmm...
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2017-12-07T09:08:45Z aeth: alandipert: what's the input? is part of the page not visible without logging in?
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2017-12-07T09:10:32Z aeth: also, if you're sure they're always fixnum, try benchmarking with '(simple-array fixnum (*)) instead of 'simple-vector
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2017-12-07T09:11:08Z alandipert: aeth the input is user-dependent, but mine is here if you want to try it: https://gist.github.com/alandipert/63e4502350d90d7b251e99cac40a3895
2017-12-07T09:13:43Z alandipert: aeth i think that might have shaved off 10-20 ms, hard to say tho
2017-12-07T09:14:54Z alandipert: the time to beat is 130 ms.. that's how fast a similar and type-hinted clojure algorithm does it on my machine. currently my lisp goes to ~230ms
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2017-12-07T09:18:53Z beach: alandipert: Do you have to use simple vectors?  It might be more efficient to use specialized vectors.
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2017-12-07T09:19:45Z aeth: If you want to make a higher-order-function faster, you can usually do that by converting it into a macro, afaik.
2017-12-07T09:20:03Z aeth: I just more than halved it by turning it into a macro, on my machine
2017-12-07T09:20:04Z alandipert: beach i don't think they have to be simple, i'm ignorant of this swath of CL :-) i went with simple because it seemed like.. the simplest
2017-12-07T09:21:10Z beach: alandipert: Well, in Common Lisp a simple vector has element type T.  It might be better to use a vector type that stores numbers.
2017-12-07T09:21:12Z aeth: All I did was replaced the funcall with (progn ,@body) and now I define a function instead of passing in a higher order function. Real code should also use gensyms in macros.
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2017-12-07T09:23:22Z aeth: Giving it a fixnum type doesn't make a big performance difference because fixnums are already unboxed (unlike e.g. double-float), fixnums will fit in a vector already, and it's being told they're fixnums with (the fixnum ...)
2017-12-07T09:24:08Z aeth: Even if it made no difference, though, '(simple-array fixnum (*)) in your coerce and removing the (the fixnum ...) feels more idiomatic
2017-12-07T09:24:38Z jdz: alandipert: What's the expected result?
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2017-12-07T09:25:00Z alandipert: jdz 23948711
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2017-12-07T09:29:31Z jdz: I get 318883 :?
2017-12-07T09:29:35Z aeth: that's the first one
2017-12-07T09:30:56Z aeth: alandipert: Make sure that the length is known. That's the big thing for vectors. e.g. (declare (optimize (speed 3)) ((simple-array fixnum (1000)) code)) And use a macro instead of a higher order function, i.e. put the loop in a macro, and make the part that differs the body.
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2017-12-07T09:31:55Z jdz: aeth: Is there another input file?
2017-12-07T09:32:17Z aeth: I'm just using the same input file for both
2017-12-07T09:32:30Z jdz: For both what?
2017-12-07T09:32:44Z jdz: OK, what's part 2?
2017-12-07T09:33:08Z jdz: I'm reading the original task and there's only part 1?
2017-12-07T09:33:17Z alandipert: jdz you have to log in and solve part 1 in order to see part 2
2017-12-07T09:33:26Z jdz: Oh.
2017-12-07T09:33:32Z alandipert: i can post it tho, one sec
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2017-12-07T09:34:04Z alandipert: jdz https://gist.github.com/alandipert/f62e73c6c0c273fbf7c5ed6e77bc18a5
2017-12-07T09:34:14Z jdz: alandipert: OK, thanks!
2017-12-07T09:34:59Z alandipert: aeth i can see how inlining via macro is faster, i was kind of hoping there would be a way to parameterize via defun name at least. and use (declare (inline ...))
2017-12-07T09:35:25Z alandipert: aeth https://gist.github.com/alandipert/a15a83cb49d9cabf95781b7d987bbcab is my attempt at that, no faster though
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2017-12-07T09:35:44Z aeth: SBCL doesn't trust you, btw. It doesn't believe that it's not a fixnum because you're doing addition, afaik. When I disassemble, I see three object-not-fixnum-errors. If the numbers have a tighter bound than fixnum, you can save some checks each iteration of the loop (or at least, some of them might be in the loop)
2017-12-07T09:35:56Z aeth: Not sure which CL you're using. Maybe you use one that trusts the.
2017-12-07T09:35:59Z aeth: Or declare.
2017-12-07T09:36:08Z alandipert: i'm on sbcl
2017-12-07T09:36:27Z aeth: no, don't make the macro like that.
2017-12-07T09:36:47Z aeth: I mean, replace (evnfun code ptr) with (progn ,@body)
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2017-12-07T09:38:45Z aeth: i.e. instead of calling a function, you're inlining the whole thing into the loop iteration manually, with the macro.
2017-12-07T09:39:32Z alandipert: im familiar with the technique, but was hoping to avoid its downsides
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2017-12-07T09:40:00Z aeth: SBCL cheats with its built-in higher order functions, and even then the cheating is a leaky abstraction and you can easily ruin performance.
2017-12-07T09:40:23Z aeth: Very high performance CL does not use higher order functions.
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2017-12-07T09:41:13Z alandipert: sure... or we just write C
2017-12-07T09:41:46Z aeth: If prefer using C's macro systme
2017-12-07T09:41:50Z aeth: s/If prefer/If you/
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2017-12-07T09:42:15Z aeth: bah
2017-12-07T09:42:20Z jdz: alandipert: what CPU does the 130ms requirement for?
2017-12-07T09:42:20Z aeth: If you prefer using C's macro system.
2017-12-07T09:42:26Z jdz: s/does/is
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2017-12-07T09:44:58Z alandipert: jdz its this clojure code, on java 9/macos, on i7 skylake https://github.com/bhauman/advent-of-clojure-2016/blob/master/src/advent_of_clojure_2017/day05.clj#L50-L59
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2017-12-07T09:52:17Z aeth: And afaik you can meet the desired performance if you replace (evfun code ptr) with (progn ,@body) and redefine the functions to use this macro instead of to be passed in. Additionally, declaring it as a (simple-array fixnum (1000)) instead of * (unless it's going to be of a variable size)
2017-12-07T09:52:24Z aeth: In fact, just the length declaration might do it
2017-12-07T09:52:37Z aeth: Unknown length on a vector is expensive
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2017-12-07T09:54:05Z aeth: You get a big, scary "SB-KERNEL:HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR-SET/CHECK-BOUNDS" in the disassembly without a known length, and it's every iteration of the loop because it's in ev2!
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2017-12-07T09:54:34Z aeth: in fact, it shows up twice.
2017-12-07T09:54:46Z jdz: alandipert: a straight-forward version I tried: http://lpaste.net/360573
2017-12-07T09:55:31Z schweers: aeth: are simple-arrays of unknown size really that big a deal?
2017-12-07T09:55:52Z jdz: My CPU is mobile i7-7500.
2017-12-07T09:56:05Z alandipert: jdz cool, i'll give that a look later. off to bed for now, thanks all for the help!
2017-12-07T09:56:23Z aeth: schweers: calling that function to check bounds 2000 times might have an impact in the performance if you're trying to minimize it
2017-12-07T09:57:00Z aeth: A lot of the time, it's not important. This is something that's trying to be made as fast as possible afaik.
2017-12-07T09:57:00Z schweers: It shouldn’t cause many memory operations though, right?
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2017-12-07T09:59:29Z aeth: Found the source: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/7aa16ffc71fb5c04458297978292daa7f3f37dac/src/code/array.lisp
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2017-12-07T10:00:07Z aeth: I think that contains everything that's relevant
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2017-12-07T10:06:05Z aeth: jdz's version gives me a consistent 0.69, which is twice as fast as the macro-ified version of ev2+run. Giving it a known length of 1000 speeds it up to about 0.64. More than I thought, but fairly insignificant. It gets rid of several bounds checks, but the bounds checks probably aren't being called every iteration anymore.
2017-12-07T10:06:47Z jdz: Compiling with (safety 0) almost halves the time, but nobody should ever do that.
2017-12-07T10:06:58Z aeth: The macro version probably gave such a dramatic improvement because the compiler didn't have to bounds check as often.
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2017-12-07T10:07:17Z aeth: jdz: That's the path to the Dark Side
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2017-12-07T10:07:34Z jdz could not agree more!
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2017-12-07T10:08:42Z jdz: I wish one of the exercises will use 65-bit (or bigger) integers!
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2017-12-07T10:09:22Z aeth: known size is 2 bounds checks and 3 fixnum checks; unknown size adds 2 bounds checks; safety probably removes all the checks because the algorithm is flawless
2017-12-07T10:09:29Z aeth: s/safety/safety 0/
2017-12-07T10:09:58Z aeth: jdz: Project Euler does, sometimes.
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2017-12-07T10:12:34Z alandipert: jdz your code is awesome, thanks for sharing. i like not using fancy loop stuff. ok now to bed for real :-)
2017-12-07T10:12:36Z aeth: You might be able to remove some more checks if you're clever, without resorting to safety 0. That can get you some of the way there.
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2017-12-07T10:13:37Z aeth: e.g. maybe they're 32 bit signed integers? Then maybe the compiler can assume fixnum longer.
2017-12-07T10:14:35Z aeth: you'd slowly lose clarity, though
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2017-12-07T10:15:39Z schweers: aeth: your measurements pretty much confirm what I suspected: bounds checks are not that expensive, since running times of programs on modern hardware are pretty much limited by the speed of memory operations.
2017-12-07T10:19:57Z aeth: Individually, the checks are pretty cheap. Collectively, they apparently add up. I don't get half the time, though. I get 0.04 seconds in the safety 0 version. And half the checks that are being removed are checks for fixnum.
2017-12-07T10:20:52Z jdz: Yes, "almost halves".
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2017-12-07T10:20:57Z schweers: you can go from 0.69s to 0.04s?  not bad, that on the other hand is not what I expected
2017-12-07T10:21:20Z jdz: Oh, I misread the number.
2017-12-07T10:21:28Z aeth: no
2017-12-07T10:21:38Z aeth: I mistyped a number
2017-12-07T10:21:45Z aeth: .064
2017-12-07T10:21:49Z aeth: Not 0.64
2017-12-07T10:21:56Z aeth: I think I need to sleep.
2017-12-07T10:22:19Z schweers: oh, ok
2017-12-07T10:22:25Z schweers: thanks for clarifying
2017-12-07T10:22:28Z aeth: Also, that's why you should always get in the habit of putting the leading zero! 00.64 would have been obvious
2017-12-07T10:23:07Z aeth: although I think I just was misreading it or something
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2017-12-07T10:25:49Z aeth: Here's the overhead, btw: (let ((foo #(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7))) (time (dotimes (i 10000000000) (sb-kernel:hairy-data-vector-set/check-bounds foo 4 42))))
2017-12-07T10:29:04Z aeth: Or if that's not good enough: (let ((foo (coerce (loop for i from 0 to 10000 collect i) 'simple-vector))) (time (dotimes (i 10000000000) (sb-kernel:hairy-data-vector-set/check-bounds foo 400 42))))
2017-12-07T10:30:34Z aeth: In order for it to matter, your data has to be huge or you have to have a very strict time constraint (maybe 200 frames per second?)
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2017-12-07T10:37:54Z aeth: nevermind, that doesn't do what I think it does.
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2017-12-07T11:15:23Z shrdlu68: When working with arrays of integers less than 128, is there a performance benefit in using :element-type '(unsigned-byte 7) rather than '(unsigned-byte 8) ?
2017-12-07T11:16:11Z schweers: shrdlu68: No, as the underlying hardware is probably byte-aligned
2017-12-07T11:16:35Z schweers: i.e. there is no machine instruction to fetch or address a 7-bit region of memory
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2017-12-07T11:17:04Z shrdlu68: schweers: So implementations probably use octets in any case?
2017-12-07T11:17:14Z schweers: I guess
2017-12-07T11:17:42Z schweers: according to the CMUCL manual there are (or were?) even implementations which used even worse representations in such cases
2017-12-07T11:17:59Z schweers: but CMUCL and SBCL should just use octets
2017-12-07T11:18:46Z shrdlu68: I see, thanks!
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2017-12-07T11:19:53Z schweers: the same should be true of '(unsigned-byte 15) etc
2017-12-07T11:20:02Z schweers: bit-vectors being a notable exception
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2017-12-07T11:20:14Z jmercouris: I have the following code https://gist.github.com/78247fc1030e208f023c50323d46b3e8
2017-12-07T11:20:23Z jmercouris: My compiler complains that help-contents is unused lexical variable
2017-12-07T11:20:24Z schweers: although .. now that I think of it, it’s not /really/ an exception
2017-12-07T11:20:40Z jmercouris: YET! I am using it on line 4
2017-12-07T11:20:59Z jmercouris: Additionally, the contents of "help-contents" is not actually being used within ps:ps somehow
2017-12-07T11:21:43Z schweers: weird
2017-12-07T11:22:07Z schweers: what is ps:ps?
2017-12-07T11:22:12Z schweers: a function?  inlined?  a macro?
2017-12-07T11:22:38Z jmercouris: schweers: https://gist.github.com/55ed1615fdd783e6c36455bbec1e34ff
2017-12-07T11:23:49Z schweers: if it’s a macro, and doesn’t use its argument ... on the other hand the SETF expression does use it anyway.  I’m also confused
2017-12-07T11:24:16Z Zhivago: Perhaps it is just a symbol?
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2017-12-07T11:26:38Z mercourisj: sorry, my internet keeps cutting out, I am checking the logs though, so don't worry
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2017-12-07T11:27:04Z mercourisj: from the project description: "The ps macro takes Parenscript code in the form of lists (Parenscript code and Common Lisp code share the same representation), translates as much as it can into constant JavaScript strings at macro-expansion time, and expands into a form that will evaluate to a string containing JavaScript code."
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2017-12-07T11:30:25Z jmercouris: Zhivago: What do you mean by "perhaps it is just a symbol"?
2017-12-07T11:30:35Z schweers: does insert-help contain what you expect?
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2017-12-07T11:30:56Z Zhivago: ps:ps looks like a symbol. Perhaps that's how it is being used.
2017-12-07T11:31:12Z jmercouris: schweers: No
2017-12-07T11:31:19Z jmercouris: It looks like this: "document.body.innerHTML = helpContents;"
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2017-12-07T11:31:34Z jmercouris: Whereas it should look like "document.body.innerHTML = "contents of help-contents variable";"
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2017-12-07T11:32:58Z shrdlu68: Is there a way to increase dynamic heap size in sbcl once it's running?
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2017-12-07T11:36:04Z schweers: shrdlu68: As far as I know this cannot be done.  I wish there was a way though.  Or rather I wish this could happen automatically.
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2017-12-07T11:37:15Z schweers: jmercouris: can you verify that SETF has any effect?  Also, have you tried factoring the (PS:PS ...) expression into a function and calling that with HELP-CONTENTS as an argument?
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2017-12-07T11:38:46Z jmercouris: schweers: I haven't tried that, but I don't see how that would help, I didn't write ps:ps it is part of parenscript
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2017-12-07T11:39:40Z schweers: I know, but I don’t know anything about parenscript, so I have no idea what the macro actually does.
2017-12-07T11:39:42Z mercourisj: schweers: setf most definitely has an effect, if you look at the outputted html it has an assignment on the innerhtml of the body
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2017-12-07T11:39:52Z mercourisj: what I need to figure it is how to inline to ps somehow :\
2017-12-07T11:40:28Z schweers: Is it imporant to have the SETF inside the macro?
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2017-12-07T11:41:21Z schweers: i.e. is setf meant to be carried through to js?
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2017-12-07T11:43:44Z jmercouris: schweers: Correct, it must be in JS the point is to set the text of the web page
2017-12-07T11:44:18Z jmercouris: schweers: Correct, it must be in JS the point is to set the text of the web page
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2017-12-07T11:45:01Z schweers: have you macroexpanded it?
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2017-12-07T11:48:12Z mercourisj: yes, the macro expansion is the same as ps:ps
2017-12-07T11:48:46Z schweers: have you macroexpanded the PS invocation?
2017-12-07T11:48:59Z schweers: to see what it does with its arguments
2017-12-07T11:50:46Z mercourisj: Yes the issue is the symbol conversaion rather than evaluation
2017-12-07T11:50:55Z mercourisj: If you look in the reference here:https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/reference.html
2017-12-07T11:51:14Z mercourisj: You'll see the section "Symbol Conversion" which is what is happening with the value of help-contents, rather than an eval to its value
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2017-12-07T11:54:09Z jmercouris: alright, so reading the manual again, I retried ps:lisp, apparently ONLY at runtime does the lisp form get evaluated, so I was doing the macro expansion and it looked wrong to me, but did actually work
2017-12-07T11:54:41Z jmercouris: so to anyone reading the log in the future, the following is how I solved my problem (ps:lisp help-contents) instead of just using help-contents which was being translated to a js symbol helpContents
2017-12-07T11:55:00Z jmercouris: within (ps:lisp) any lisp can be eval'd at runtime
2017-12-07T11:55:21Z hajovonta: is that null lexical environment?
2017-12-07T11:55:36Z jmercouris: hajovonta: sorry, what is the question?
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2017-12-07T11:59:04Z jdz: On SBCL: (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 7)
2017-12-07T11:59:44Z jdz: schweers: ^
2017-12-07T12:00:23Z hajovonta: jmercouris: in the (ps:lisp) form
2017-12-07T12:00:48Z Devon: CCL> (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)
2017-12-07T12:02:16Z Bike: if you know it's an (unsigned-byte 7) you might as well tell the implementation so, since it upgrades regardless
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2017-12-07T12:03:12Z Devon: (ps:lisp '(upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7))) => (UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 7))
2017-12-07T12:03:34Z Bike: okay?
2017-12-07T12:04:14Z Devon: Mindless, don't mind me.
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2017-12-07T12:05:40Z jdz: I wrote a bit about arrays ages ago here: http://t-b-o-g.blogspot.com/2009/10/brians-brain-on-common-lisp-take-2.html </shameless-plug>
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2017-12-07T12:23:13Z schweers: jdz: but does it have any benefit declaring the element type as (unsigned-byte 7)?
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2017-12-07T12:23:47Z schweers: now that I think of it: there may be cases in which the compiler can prove that an operation on an element will not be larger than (unsigned-byte 8)
2017-12-07T12:23:50Z jdz: If that's what you will be storing there, then yes.
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2017-12-07T12:25:31Z shrdlu68: 8-bit is to octet as 7-bit is to?
2017-12-07T12:25:54Z jdz: septet?
2017-12-07T12:26:08Z schweers: byte :-P
2017-12-07T12:26:30Z shrdlu68: Hehe, I'll go with septet
2017-12-07T12:27:00Z shrdlu68: (deftype septet...
2017-12-07T12:27:05Z jdz: schweers: let me look that up for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#9_bit
2017-12-07T12:27:35Z schweers: wasn’t always the case though, was it?
2017-12-07T12:27:57Z schweers: but I may very well be wrong about that, I’m not old enough to remember a time when a byte wasn’t 8 bits
2017-12-07T12:29:02Z jdz: I remember at least some architectures from early lisp days had 36-bit words, which I think implied 9-bit bytes.
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2017-12-07T12:30:18Z Devon: 7-bit bytes with a spare bit.
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2017-12-07T12:31:01Z jdz: s/I remember/I remember reading about/
2017-12-07T12:31:22Z jdz: I have not touched a PDP-11 or a Lisp Machine in my life.
2017-12-07T12:31:53Z ecraven: jdz: I don't think lisp machine words were split into bytes
2017-12-07T12:31:57Z Devon: In fact, any byte size you like, as long as it fits.
2017-12-07T12:32:18Z Devon: That's where byte pointers come from.
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2017-12-07T12:32:57Z Devon: (dpb hi (byte 8 8) lo)
2017-12-07T12:34:37Z jdz: I should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704
2017-12-07T12:35:19Z jdz: I also remember reading about strings being chunks of 5? characters (each one 7-bits) packed in words?
2017-12-07T12:35:19Z Devon: haha, CAR & CDR
2017-12-07T12:35:44Z Devon: Correct, the sign bit unused.
2017-12-07T12:35:52Z jdz: Or could be used for tag?
2017-12-07T12:36:02Z jdz: Maybe not.
2017-12-07T12:36:44Z ecraven:  I think the 36 bit had 4 bit tags
2017-12-07T12:36:58Z jdz: Could be 4 characters, then.
2017-12-07T12:37:17Z jdz: Does it ring any bells for anybody?
2017-12-07T12:37:19Z Devon: I suppose the Symbolics 3600 had 32 bits + 4 tag bits.
2017-12-07T12:38:04Z shrdlu68: Just realized #'member only works with lists.
2017-12-07T12:38:16Z Devon: The LMITI (LMI+MIT+TI) CADR has 32 bits - tag bits, so maybe 28 to work with.
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2017-12-07T12:39:21Z Devon: #'find takes anything and you can :key #'car
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2017-12-07T12:41:58Z jdz: Oh, this might be it (from IBM_704 page): «Alphanumeric characters were usually 6-bit BCD, packed six to a word.»
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2017-12-07T12:42:21Z Devon: No lowercase for you!
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2017-12-07T12:45:07Z pjb: lisp 1.5 charset: "0123456789#=\"###+ABCDEFGHI%.)###-JKLMNOPQRØ$*### /STUVWXYZ±,(###"
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2017-12-07T12:45:14Z pjb: # = unallocated codepoint.
2017-12-07T12:45:56Z Devon: PDP-10 SIXBIT for filenames, SQUOZE for symbol tables, 7-bit ASCII for text, 8-bit SAIL for terminal output, 9-bit... not sure but I'm sure it got some use.
2017-12-07T12:45:57Z pjb: Funny: there's ±
2017-12-07T12:48:40Z pjb: ASCII was invented way later than LISP 1.5…
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2017-12-07T12:53:50Z Devon: I suspect that " is a mistake and ' is more likely.
2017-12-07T12:54:56Z jdz: Why?
2017-12-07T12:55:56Z jdz: There is Ø and ±, and many unallocated codepoints.
2017-12-07T12:56:35Z Devon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCD_(character_encoding)#48-character_BCD_code
2017-12-07T12:57:46Z jdz: Devon: what about it?  It's very different from what pjb shared.
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2017-12-07T12:58:39Z Devon: Oops, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCD_(character_encoding)#IBM_704_BCD_code
2017-12-07T13:00:08Z jdz: That's a bit closer, does not have " nor '.
2017-12-07T13:02:06Z Devon: McCarthy's printer may have had a slightly different print chain installed.
2017-12-07T13:02:36Z Devon: or drum, as they probably had the top-of-the-line gear.
2017-12-07T13:05:27Z hajovonta: top gear
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2017-12-07T13:19:33Z pjb: Well, foremost, the character set was determined by the printer chains.  They could easily be changed for each printing job!
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2017-12-07T13:55:28Z Devon: Taking off now to shame the FCC.  Happy hacking!
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2017-12-07T17:46:02Z circ-user-81lkm: Is it possible to query a "system class" like character for its subclasses? e.g. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_ch.htm#character has base-char and extended-char extending character. Something like (subclasses 'character) => '(base-char extended-char)?
2017-12-07T17:47:14Z Shinmera: You can't query class relationship information in CL at all, you need the MOP for that.
2017-12-07T17:47:52Z Shinmera: Well, aside from probing with subtypep
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2017-12-07T17:48:12Z emaczen: Almost every implementation provides the MOP though
2017-12-07T17:48:40Z emaczen: There is even a library called closer-mop which will work on most implementations too
2017-12-07T17:48:41Z _death: types aren't necessarily classes, in particular base-char and extended-char are not classes
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2017-12-07T17:49:34Z Bike: For that particular question you can use subtypep, i.e. (subtypep 'extended-char nil)
2017-12-07T17:49:43Z Bike: which i think is required to give you an actual result.
2017-12-07T17:50:02Z Shinmera: Afaiu he wants to get a list of subtypes, though.
2017-12-07T17:50:28Z Shinmera: If you know the set of concrete types you can probe with subtypep, I guess, but not in general.
2017-12-07T17:50:37Z Bike: the list of subtypes of almost any type is infinite
2017-12-07T17:50:48Z Shinmera: Yeah.
2017-12-07T17:50:50Z Bike: circ-user-81lkm: more information on what you're doing?
2017-12-07T17:51:03Z jmercouris: What's a good way to show the source for any given function?
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2017-12-07T17:51:16Z _death: jmercouris: M-.
2017-12-07T17:51:41Z jmercouris: _death: Outside of emacs, purely in Lisp
2017-12-07T17:51:49Z Bike: if you  need to do it programmatically (and as i recall, you're making some kind of editor) it's implementation specific. Look through swank
2017-12-07T17:52:17Z Bike: and what you'll get is a source location, not the actual source form, which has probably been discarded
2017-12-07T17:52:30Z _death: jmercouris: there is no way in plain common lisp.. pjb has a package called ibcl which may be appropriate
2017-12-07T17:52:42Z jmercouris: Bike: You mean like a position + a file?
2017-12-07T17:52:48Z Bike: Yes.
2017-12-07T17:52:57Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/editor/function-inspector.lisp#L54
2017-12-07T17:53:00Z circ-user-81lkm: Well I saw a demo somewhere of a UI that produced a class hierarchy diagram and it included character and it's subtypes but I'm not sure how it produced that
2017-12-07T17:53:01Z Bike: i.e. what M-. uses
2017-12-07T17:53:18Z jmercouris: Maybe I'm just re-inventing emacs at this point, perhaps I shouldn't implement that
2017-12-07T17:53:20Z Bike: pragmatic, shinmera
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2017-12-07T17:53:48Z Shinmera: Bike: 's what I do
2017-12-07T17:53:48Z jmercouris: Ah, that is very good indeed, very simple
2017-12-07T17:53:49Z Bike: It's true, though, if you want to do editor things you could do worse than just bringing in swank rather than reimplementing it
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2017-12-07T17:54:01Z Bike: It also has completions and other stuff you were doing
2017-12-07T17:54:19Z jmercouris: Yeah, maybe it is pointless though, because someone can just use slime to connect to my program
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2017-12-07T17:55:16Z jmercouris: I should just get slime working with my standalone executable, and avoid too many things like "jump to source" and stuff like that, I'll leave it at showing docstrings for built in help
2017-12-07T17:56:48Z Bike: Is your program not an editor?
2017-12-07T17:56:57Z Shinmera: It's a web browser, if I remember correctly
2017-12-07T17:57:54Z Bike: lisp editing sounds like scope creep, then.
2017-12-07T17:59:05Z jmercouris: Bike: It is a web browser
2017-12-07T17:59:13Z jmercouris: http://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT
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2017-12-07T18:07:12Z sjl: jmercouris: embed swank in the browser process, let people connect to and interact with it with whatever editor they want
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2017-12-07T18:08:09Z sjl: keeping https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/286 in mind
2017-12-07T18:08:15Z jmercouris: sjl: Yeah, I have a branch for that, I was so close to releasing it, but none of the GUI updates were making it on screen
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2017-12-07T18:10:17Z jmercouris: It doesn't make sense to me how that is even possible that the updates were not happening on screen, because all of the functions that update the gui have a (on-main-thread) macro which calls them in the ccl event process
2017-12-07T18:11:29Z circ-user-81lkm: Thanks for the MOP tip - I think this is what I'm after, e.g. (closer-mop:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'character)) => (#<BUILT-IN-CLASS STANDARD-CHAR>)
2017-12-07T18:11:31Z emaczen: What does no more immobile pages left mean? It is an error I get from SBCL and then I get sent to LDB?
2017-12-07T18:11:50Z emaczen: Can I just start SBCL with "more immobile pages" like sb-ext:dynamic-space-size?
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2017-12-07T18:13:12Z emaczen: "No more immobile pages available" -- is the exact error message
2017-12-07T18:13:33Z circ-user-81lkm: Although... I get different results in CCL vs. SBCL (where it gives nil)
2017-12-07T18:13:47Z Bike: circ-user-81lkm: extended-char and standard-char are not required to be classes
2017-12-07T18:14:14Z Bike: Whether they are types with elements in them is orthogonal to whether they are classes
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2017-12-07T18:27:02Z pjb: jmercouris: it depends on how on-main-thread is implemented.
2017-12-07T18:28:15Z pjb: I've noticed that with the latest versions of macOS, if you try to draw in a timer, it doesn't work reliably, even though you configure the time to execute on the main thread.
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2017-12-07T18:37:32Z jmercouris: pjb: Interesting, I'll try some more tests, I just switchted to that branch
2017-12-07T18:37:42Z jmercouris: Gotta go for now, but I'll report later if I come up with something
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2017-12-07T19:14:51Z earl-ducaine: <possibly spam> Lispinators!  I'd like to do a series of blog posts on MOP that provides enough practicle information and examples to alow someone get get started using it on real world problems (something that I found to be lacking either on the Internet or in the published literature.)
2017-12-07T19:15:06Z earl-ducaine: I'm collecting feedback to guage interest and collect ideas.  Feel free to reply here on IRC or post a comment to my blog post requesting the same: https://wordpress.com/view/earlducaine.wordpress.com
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2017-12-07T19:17:10Z earl-ducaine: Oops, meant: https://earlducaine.wordpress.com/
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2017-12-07T19:20:44Z Bike: earl-ducaine: this might not be what you had in mind, but the word wrap is weird https://i.imgur.com/3U7UPFn.png
2017-12-07T19:22:06Z whoman: earl-ducaine: interesting, thank you ! will check it out.
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2017-12-07T19:23:02Z earl-ducaine: Damn.  That's what you get for composing a Wordpress first in Emacs.  Looked great on my screen with, probably because of exactly alined linebreaks.
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2017-12-07T19:24:10Z Bike: earl-ducaine: i think the discussion of slots is a bit confusing. objects still 'own' slots in clos
2017-12-07T19:24:51Z Bike: it might be worthwhile to be kind of anal about the distinction between slots (parts of an object, probably anonymous in a vector) and slot definitions
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2017-12-07T19:25:45Z Bike: oh, you gave up on this post, i see...
2017-12-07T19:25:55Z Bike: my mistake
2017-12-07T19:27:22Z Bike: as structuring goes i'd use examples. like some basic features someone want: persistence, observers. stuff you can implement in a simple way in a page or so while introducing mop concepts
2017-12-07T19:27:25Z whoman: interesting how (error ..) is used in :initform s
2017-12-07T19:27:32Z earl-ducaine: Bike: that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for!
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2017-12-07T19:28:17Z whoman: singleton ~_~
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2017-12-07T19:29:19Z whoman: anyone having success using nEXT browser ? why not just use Ceramic. =)
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2017-12-07T19:30:41Z whoman: earl-ducaine: your mention of the AMOP book, is it a prerequisite ?
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2017-12-07T19:31:16Z Bike: AMOP isn't good as a textbook of how to use MOP because it's definitely intended as a book on developing MOP instead
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2017-12-07T19:31:51Z Bike: but that just means there aren't any books on using MOP :D
2017-12-07T19:32:05Z whoman: that makes sense.. i read it the other day; was not sure if it was a preview, or a booklet/pamphlette, ..
2017-12-07T19:32:37Z whoman: but MOP is awesome! isn't it? we can defclass with not-yet-defined subclasses (forward) and...
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2017-12-07T19:33:34Z whoman: ...my sense of OOP is directly tied to syntax, of which CLOS looks like everything else, so i am reserving its application currently. its all just lists anyhow.
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2017-12-07T19:44:50Z whoman: ok earl-ducaine i read it all. my summary: its an introduction to the MOP book, as it talks mostly about it, so i was thinking about that book, and now at the end, after reading it, i feel like i am hungrier than when i came to dinner. i would have the impression that MOP is mysterious undocumented internal assembly unsafe scariness
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2017-12-07T19:46:40Z earl-ducaine: whoman: Yes, that's exactly what hope to dispell in the revised series!
2017-12-07T19:48:44Z whoman: oh! exciting =)
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2017-12-07T19:50:47Z Xach: borodust: how do i try that new blob?
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2017-12-07T19:51:20Z borodust: Xach: here's the link to archive: https://goo.gl/wH6Fok
2017-12-07T19:51:33Z borodust: Xach: just unpack and run hello-gamekit executable
2017-12-07T19:51:43Z _rumbler31_: whoman: Ceramic has been unstable every time I try to use it
2017-12-07T19:52:14Z borodust: Xach: sources are here: https://github.com/borodust/hello-gamekit
2017-12-07T19:52:27Z borodust: Xach: that's basically an example code from Getting Started guide
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2017-12-07T19:56:48Z Xach: borodust: should i expect to see a difference in the scaling issue today with the latest dist update?
2017-12-07T19:57:11Z borodust: Xach: yes, but you need to update the dist first
2017-12-07T19:57:32Z borodust: and remove trivial-gamekit if it is still in local-projects
2017-12-07T19:57:38Z Xach: hmm, right!
2017-12-07T19:59:06Z Xach: no luck, and hello-gamekit is also scaled oddly :~(
2017-12-07T19:59:15Z borodust: ouch
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2017-12-07T19:59:18Z borodust: i'll take a look
2017-12-07T19:59:23Z Xach: would a video help again?
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2017-12-07T20:01:57Z Xach: It would basically show what you've seen before - 1/4 scaling in the lower left of the window
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2017-12-07T20:04:38Z borodust: Xach: hmm
2017-12-07T20:05:00Z borodust: can you nuke ~/.cache/common-lisp/* and check again?
2017-12-07T20:05:05Z Ober: Shinmera: do you profile your elisp methods for call counts?
2017-12-07T20:05:09Z borodust: i was pretty sure i fixed the issue D:
2017-12-07T20:06:28Z Ober: what is the right way to bundle your .cache/common-lisp fasls/sos
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2017-12-07T20:06:37Z borodust: Xach: okay, got a second report issue stil persists
2017-12-07T20:06:39Z Ober: allegro puts it all in the same directory as the binary
2017-12-07T20:06:50Z Ober: well shared objects anyways
2017-12-07T20:06:50Z borodust: Xach: going in :)
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2017-12-07T20:08:21Z Shinmera: Ober: I don't use elisp
2017-12-07T20:09:39Z Ober: Shinmera: emacs right? was looking to see if you could enable command-frequency, as very curious which slime functions I'm not making use of. you do a lot of stuff where it's not obvious to me which method you invoked
2017-12-07T20:12:54Z Shinmera: Uh, I don't use a lot of stuff
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2017-12-07T20:14:05Z Ober: might be a simple as me not using the right `select last sexp and eval`
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2017-12-07T20:14:42Z Shinmera: I just C-c C-c for that.
2017-12-07T20:15:30Z Shinmera: Other than that the standard paredit things, plus multiple-cursors and expand-region are commands I frequently use.
2017-12-07T20:15:44Z Shinmera: I'm no emacs expert by any means
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2017-12-07T20:18:27Z borodust: Xach: holy moly, i'm dumb, found the source D:
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2017-12-07T20:18:51Z borodust: Xach: fixed it only for like 99% lol, and forgot one important thing
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2017-12-07T20:27:19Z Ober: Shinmera: thanks
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2017-12-07T20:34:17Z borodust: Xach: i updated the dist, please, check if this version works for you
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2017-12-07T20:40:38Z emaczen: What are the recommended speed and space settings for development?
2017-12-07T20:40:41Z emaczen: 1 or 0?
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2017-12-07T20:43:22Z oleo: speed 1 space 1 ?
2017-12-07T20:43:36Z oleo: or space 0 ?
2017-12-07T20:43:48Z emaczen: yeah with declaim optimize
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2017-12-07T20:44:35Z oleo: debug 2
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2017-12-07T20:45:08Z oleo: won't that already make other stuff like speed and space have some default setting ?
2017-12-07T20:45:38Z Bike: they don't affect each other.
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2017-12-07T20:47:55Z oleo: then why not keep it all at level 2 ?
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2017-12-07T21:08:57Z asarch: What do you think?: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/
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2017-12-07T21:17:06Z fourier: anyone have had any troubles with alignment/order of the fields in structs returned from C functions by cffi?
2017-12-07T21:19:06Z cgay: asarch: A lisp tutorial seems like a fine idea, even though I'm sure it's not the first. At first glance I can see some problems with the content. Are you asking because you wrote it and you want feedback or because you want to use it to learn Lisp?
2017-12-07T21:19:34Z Bike: tutorialspoint has been kind of bad when i've used it for C
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2017-12-07T21:22:11Z jmercouris: tutorialspoint is good for python, for lisp though, it was terrible, practical common lisp is a really good, though ironically somewhat impractical way of learning lisp
2017-12-07T21:22:49Z jmercouris: I felt like practical common lisp neglected many practical topics, the author addresses that in one of the chapters, but I guess when you get to there, you can start learning on your own
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2017-12-07T21:23:06Z borodust: jmercouris: oh, wh.. ah, i see
2017-12-07T21:23:31Z fourier: there is common lisp recipes for practical topics as well as "cl cookbook" it is based on
2017-12-07T21:24:17Z jmercouris: the new CL cookbook on github is very good!
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2017-12-07T21:25:59Z jmercouris: borodust: Yeah lol, see here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/conclusion-whats-next.html
2017-12-07T21:26:12Z cgay: I learned with Touretsky's Gentle Intro to Symbolic Computation, which I thought was excellent. It's very basic, but at the time I had no CS background so it worked for me.
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2017-12-07T21:26:45Z borodust: jmercouris: to be fair, that was my experience too
2017-12-07T21:27:14Z borodust: when i learned basics, i just went for making my own stuff
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2017-12-07T21:27:56Z _rumbler31_: jmercouris: what practial topics do you feel PCL neglected
2017-12-07T21:28:09Z borodust: but practical there stands for more like "practical" part of CL
2017-12-07T21:28:27Z fourier: dont forget pcl was from 2005 iirc, so how much practical aspects do you want from 12-years old book
2017-12-07T21:29:04Z borodust: jmercouris: w/o nitty gritty confusing stuff
2017-12-07T21:30:08Z Shinmera: Well, I mean, when it comes to "practical" things the areas one might want to have covered is almost infinite.
2017-12-07T21:30:44Z jmercouris: Yeah, practical is a very large set, I would have just liked something more cookbooky
2017-12-07T21:31:39Z Shinmera: Have a look at Common Lisp Recipes then.
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2017-12-07T21:33:59Z cgay: I guess you can't get much more cookbooky than that.
2017-12-07T21:34:41Z _rumbler31_: I was impressed with the mutlithreaeded section
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2017-12-07T21:35:26Z jmercouris: I've seen them already, but point taken
2017-12-07T21:35:33Z _rumbler31_: I got the gist of the description of how to parallelize a process that can be described as a graph of operations, where peers can be processed simultaneously
2017-12-07T21:36:18Z jmercouris: _rumbler31_: You should take a distributed systems course, you'll learn all about different theories for proving correctness, order, etc
2017-12-07T21:36:34Z jmercouris: Also different scheduling, communication and signaling strategies to ensure correctness, even with failure etc
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2017-12-07T21:36:45Z fourier: cl recipes is so awesome
2017-12-07T21:36:47Z _rumbler31_: sounds good!
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2017-12-07T21:37:04Z fourier: my favorite book, always revert to it
2017-12-07T21:39:30Z asarch: I want to use it as reference cgay
2017-12-07T21:39:40Z asarch: Does it worth?
2017-12-07T21:40:00Z asarch: I mean, is it a good tutorial?
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2017-12-07T21:42:26Z fourier: just buy it
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2017-12-07T21:43:12Z fourier: its not a tutotiral but accompanying book
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2017-12-07T21:44:25Z asarch: Thank you guys
2017-12-07T21:44:26Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-07T21:44:41Z asarch: See you later! Viel Spaẞ!
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2017-12-07T21:51:46Z Ober: nice, modern book
2017-12-07T21:51:57Z Ober: also a great source of what to use, and what not to use
2017-12-07T21:54:37Z cgay: I think there were several overloaded bindings for "it" there, but oh well.
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2017-12-07T21:55:34Z fourier: i meant cl recipes book
2017-12-07T21:57:36Z Younder: https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504 is also interesting
2017-12-07T21:57:41Z cgay: Yup. I think asarch was still referring to TutorialsPoint.
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2017-12-07T22:09:33Z aeth: I personally find the best way to write fast CL is to use a mostly-functional style: i.e. pure functions that feed into mutable data structures. One way of getting non-consing pure functions without a lot of macro hacks is to use multiple return values, which will work for non-boxed values (obviously, within reason... 16 return values for a 4x4 matrix probably won't work well with this style).
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2017-12-07T22:10:51Z aeth: I also treat a zero-body do as pure, even though technically it's just a bunch of mutating gotos. This is because do is pure in Scheme (a macro makes it tail recursion instead of mutating values and having gotos) and that do is basically identical to CL's do minus the ability to do gotos in the do body, afaik.
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2017-12-07T22:12:09Z Devon: What is this zero-body, is it documented?
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2017-12-07T22:12:49Z aeth: Devon: A zero-body do is a do that doesn't have a body... If you're using do in a purely functional way, you usually don't need a body (except perhaps for type declarations) because the body is for side effects.
2017-12-07T22:13:41Z aeth: I suppose nil body or something would be more accurate.
2017-12-07T22:13:48Z aeth: It probably got morphed in a game of telephone
2017-12-07T22:14:24Z aeth: The first three examples here don't have a body: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
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2017-12-07T22:15:10Z aeth: Note that do uses 1+ instead of incf, so even though it's technically setting if you macroexpand it, you can pretend it's functional.
2017-12-07T22:16:29Z aeth: I think CL is more of a language for making functional languages than an actual functional language itself. You're ultimately going to be mutating, but you can hide it well and pretend you're pure.
2017-12-07T22:17:10Z aeth: Not just functional languages. CL seems like an excellent choice for implementing fifth-generation programming languages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_programming_language
2017-12-07T22:17:31Z aeth: It's not surprising at all to see that article have the phrase "These types of languages were also built upon Lisp, many originating on the Lisp machine"
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2017-12-07T22:19:06Z Devon: aeth: a disembodied do, like a loop macro with no do clause.
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2017-12-07T22:21:08Z aeth: Yes, I suppose someone once used 'nil body' as an alternative to 'disembodied' and then someone with a dialect where 'nil' means 'zero' said 'zero' instead, and that's how I picked up the confusing term. 'nil body' at least still makes sense.
2017-12-07T22:21:16Z pfdietz: ML was originally implemented in lisp (as part of LCF.)
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2017-12-07T22:27:36Z aeth: Anyway, I see Lisp as a langauge for writing declarative (including purely functional) languages, rather than a declarative language, except where the work has already been done by some included macro (usually the macros are left to libraries).
2017-12-07T22:29:45Z aeth: Imo, there's not enough magic going on in the compiler for efficient pure functional programming out of the box... unless you abuse the language, but such abuses should probably be macroified, anyway.
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2017-12-07T22:30:24Z jasom: okay I remember slime being able to eval an expression and add the result as a comment like ;; => FOO
2017-12-07T22:30:50Z jasom: do I need an extension or something for it because I can't find that; just the C-u C-x C-e which prints it with no comment
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2017-12-07T22:49:32Z Devon: Do you get 504: Gateway Time-out at http://LearnLispTheHardWay.org?
2017-12-07T22:51:16Z aeth: If I'm heavily abusing symbol macros, do you think it's clear enough if I use names like 'location.x instead of 'x-location or 'location-x to abstract over where I store the x location? Definitely probably violates every style guide in existence, but 'location.x seems like the most obvious name for this syntactic shortcut to me.
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2017-12-07T22:52:11Z aeth: I have to heavily abuse symbol macros because otherwise my implementation leaks because I use 2D arrays, meaning arefs everywhere. Fortunately, arefs are very similar to accessors (they are accessors?), so I can basically copy the basic layout of with-accessors
2017-12-07T22:53:26Z aeth: e.g. (setf location.x 4f0) becomes (setf (aref location entity-id +x+) 4f0) where +x+ is 0
2017-12-07T22:54:03Z aeth: I could also use the name location-x or something else, but... I don't think I can use the idiomatic (x location) because then I need to add a lot more complexity than just a symbol-macrolet
2017-12-07T22:55:11Z aeth: I also absolutely hate macros that have fake macros/functions in the body that don't even exist because you can't really do things with them that you expect, and you basically can only figure out what's going on when a syntax error pops up by doing something wrong.
2017-12-07T22:55:55Z aeth: At least with location.x or location-x it's clear that it's a symbol, and fairly obvious that something like with-accessors is going on
2017-12-07T22:57:00Z aeth: I'm trying to get this API right because I have to rework half of my code every time I change it because it's very core to my game engine.
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2017-12-07T23:06:27Z republican_devil: how do lispers handle big data?
2017-12-07T23:06:31Z republican_devil: or e commerce?
2017-12-07T23:06:36Z republican_devil: without resporting to postgresql?
2017-12-07T23:06:42Z republican_devil: can files and lisp do it?
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2017-12-07T23:13:33Z papachan: republican_devil ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2017-12-07T23:16:05Z Devon: republican_devil: (ql:system-apropos "sql") gets 44 hits, nosql gets none...
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2017-12-07T23:18:51Z whoman: aeth: i think dots are totally fine and i think that is also an interesting idea
2017-12-07T23:19:09Z whoman: i am looking at this right now, anaphoric macros: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html
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2017-12-07T23:21:54Z republican_devil: no no
2017-12-07T23:22:01Z republican_devil: want to avoid sql and postgresql
2017-12-07T23:22:17Z republican_devil: aavoid nosql
2017-12-07T23:22:35Z aeth: Ah, interesting... with-accessors only works without problems because CL is a Lisp-2. This would have to be used with care because this would blow the stack as it infinitely expands the foo: (with-entity-accessors ((foo foo)) 42 foo)
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2017-12-07T23:24:27Z aeth: republican_devil: Just about everyone uses postgresql through postmodern, afaik. And most of the rest will probably use some other SQL system with a different SQL database.
2017-12-07T23:24:47Z aeth: NoSQL would be tricky because quite a lot of them use JSON and CL's JSON support is fairly weak.
2017-12-07T23:24:59Z Shinmera: What are you talking about
2017-12-07T23:25:35Z Shinmera: There's like six or what JSON libraries to do the parsing and serialising in literally every way imaginable.
2017-12-07T23:25:39Z aeth: JSON doesn't map well to CL, and the popular libraries' arbitrary decisions are bad, especially the most popular's, cl-json
2017-12-07T23:25:48Z whoman: aeth: check out the variable capture of anaphoric macro, may help u out now that i think of it =)
2017-12-07T23:26:00Z aeth: thinking "nil" is more "null" than "false" is quite possibly the worst way to approach it, yet cl-json does it that way.
2017-12-07T23:26:11Z Shinmera: So
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2017-12-07T23:27:43Z aeth: Shinmera: so the most popular (by far) JSON implementation is fundamentally flawed in the way it tries to connect JSON's data types to CL's data types
2017-12-07T23:27:47Z Shinmera: Also, there already are libraries to interface with mongo and couchdb, etc.
2017-12-07T23:28:01Z aeth: And being the most popular, that's probably the one most libraries use
2017-12-07T23:28:07Z Shinmera: aeth: So what? That doesn't make JSON support "weak". There's still all the other libraries that offer all the other options.
2017-12-07T23:29:06Z aeth: I'd call CL's regexp support weak if a fatally flawed regexp library was as popular as cl-ppcre and cl-ppcre was obscure
2017-12-07T23:29:15Z republican_devil: why use json?
2017-12-07T23:29:29Z Shinmera: And I'd call that stupid
2017-12-07T23:29:33Z republican_devil: why use a sql database?
2017-12-07T23:29:42Z aeth: republican_devil: People follow the trends, which in 2000 would have been XML and in 2017 is now JSON... In fact, in 2017 it's remaking everything that has been done with XML, but for JSON
2017-12-07T23:29:43Z republican_devil: oracle is cancer in my opinion
2017-12-07T23:29:58Z republican_devil: no no Im talking about using lisp not following trends
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2017-12-07T23:30:06Z republican_devil: Im on frebsd with icewm and chrome
2017-12-07T23:30:52Z aeth: Shinmera: The problem is that you'll basically be forced to use multiple libraries that do essentially the same thing when it comes to something like JSON, since odds are one of your dependencies is using cl-json and another realized cl-json is stupid and is using one of the other 5
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2017-12-07T23:31:43Z aeth: Compare this to something where there's one library (e.g. closer-mop, cl-ppcre, babel, trivial-features, trivial-gray-streams, bordeaux-threads, cffi, etc.) that dominates. Less likely to have a dependency explosion
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2017-12-07T23:31:53Z Shinmera: Then that's an issue with the libraries at hand. It doesn't say anything at all about the support for JSON in and of itself.
2017-12-07T23:32:42Z Shinmera: And again, because there are different ways to do it, there's different libraries to do it. This is not the case with the other examples you mentioned (mostly) because there's very little to do differnetly.
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2017-12-07T23:34:13Z Shinmera: mop, ppcre, encodings, ffi, features, threading, are all sets that are pretty well defined, and the way to implement a library for it is thus clear. The JSON mapping is not.
2017-12-07T23:34:34Z aeth: There's a different way to do babel... treat it like a portability library and e.g. use SBCL's much faster octets-to-string when on SBCL. There's many ways to do regular expressions. There's also probably many ways to do something like bt or cffi. There are different ways to handle what trivial-features does, one library I used to use used that alternative.
2017-12-07T23:35:04Z whoman: sb-alien
2017-12-07T23:35:15Z aeth: trivial-gray-streams is the only unambiguous basically-one-way-to-do-it library there that I know of. I don't know enough about closer-mop, but it might be the same way.
2017-12-07T23:35:52Z Shinmera: bt, ffi, etc. expose a min-max API and are thus also pretty clearly defined and couldn't well be done otherwise.
2017-12-07T23:35:57Z whoman: lisp libraries hmm could be treated a bit less as having an API and more of being a bunch of parts
2017-12-07T23:36:16Z aeth: I'll grant your point on bt. I'm not sure about cffi
2017-12-07T23:38:09Z aeth: Anyway, I do see it as a flaw in the CL ecosystem that there isn't a clearly correct (for most use cases) and popular JSON library... although, that might just be because a lot of people (like me) use s-expressions for data where other languages would use JSON, YAML, or XML. Still hurts interfacing with things written in other languages, though.
2017-12-07T23:38:20Z aeth: It's not a flaw in CL itself, obviously.
2017-12-07T23:38:48Z anunnaki is now known as verigo
2017-12-07T23:39:22Z aeth: Most of the stuff at the top of this are clearly the correct library for the thing they're trying to solve, or at least correct enough to not be worth using an alternative. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2017/12/november-2017-quicklisp-download-stats.html
2017-12-07T23:39:30Z verigo is now known as vertigo
2017-12-07T23:40:35Z Shinmera: trivial-backtrace for instance is no longer the best option though :^)
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2017-12-07T23:49:03Z aeth: republican_devil: If you're talking about using Lisp instead of SQL where SQL would normally be used, then I think it's still technically NoSQL
2017-12-07T23:49:06Z Devon: republican_devil: I scoped out various CL JSON libs for a product I was developing, found one which was round-trip correct, IIRC I still had to hack it a bit to get it right.
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2017-12-07T23:50:39Z aeth: Devon: Yes, round-trip correctness, that's the issue. It's related to also having reasonable encodings. Not having a separate '() and #f here hurts CL in a naive encoding if one wants to use lists instead of arrays.
2017-12-07T23:50:43Z Devon: Anyone here ever use a "Semantic" database?
2017-12-07T23:51:04Z aeth: jcowan_ pointed out some workarounds to JSON encoding issues in #scheme a few weeks ago, iirc
2017-12-07T23:51:13Z aeth: I'm not sure if any CL library uses them
2017-12-07T23:51:58Z aeth: Devon: can you clarify? "semantic" sounds like it might be too much of a buzzword to search
2017-12-07T23:52:30Z Devon: I have this vague nightmarish recollection of ugly compromises.
2017-12-07T23:53:30Z Devon: Franz, Inc.'s hoopla, has anyone used it?
2017-12-07T23:53:32Z aeth: republican_devil: I'm not aware of a portable CL-native database that has any real popularity. I wouldn't be surprised if LispWorks and/or Allegro have their own proprietary ones.
2017-12-07T23:55:46Z aeth: Some of the entity systems used by #lispgames might be seen as CL-native in-memory databases, but they would be built around being real-time, not around big data.
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2017-12-07T23:58:35Z aeth: A portable database that's not in-memory would probably need some portability around mmap. Does this exist? It looks like the only name match in Quicklisp is trivial-mmap.
2017-12-08T00:02:28Z aeth: https://github.com/zodmaner/trivial-mmap
2017-12-08T00:02:32Z aeth: It looks like this also has mmap. https://github.com/osicat/osicat
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2017-12-08T00:32:02Z aeth: whoman: Thanks, your suggestion set me off in the right direction. I now store all the old values of the slot names in gensyms, and aref those gensyms instead of using the name directly.
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2017-12-08T00:35:21Z whoman: https://ptpb.pw/4UUX    kekeke
2017-12-08T00:36:14Z aeth: whoman: Are you doing something with (safety 0) somewhere?
2017-12-08T00:36:36Z whoman: aeth: ah cool! gensym leaves a taste in my mouth. i had been conditioned to feel that hygiene is a good thing (??) but suddenly i see that capturing variables is something i will really enjoy the taste of
2017-12-08T00:37:44Z whoman: aeth: nope, just SDL2/threads
2017-12-08T00:38:17Z whoman: some time last night i had two sdl2 bindings going, very unconventionally, so i am sure that was it =)
2017-12-08T00:38:37Z aeth: C is (safety -1) all the time
2017-12-08T00:38:57Z whoman: there she is =) --> (defmacro alambda (parms &body body) `(labels ((self ,parms ,@body)) #'self))
2017-12-08T00:39:16Z dmiles: Devon: you should invesigate CYC
2017-12-08T00:39:21Z whoman: aeth: heh!
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2017-12-08T00:40:19Z dmiles: Devon: and/or KM http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/km/  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mfkb/km/km-overview.script
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2017-12-08T00:42:16Z dmiles is developing new Lisp to make integration of such programs Semantic Inference Engines easier with other Engine tools writtne in Prolog
2017-12-08T00:42:53Z dmiles: eaiser = less FFI thinking between objects
2017-12-08T00:43:07Z dmiles: thunking*
2017-12-08T00:43:32Z aeth: call it Epilog
2017-12-08T00:43:45Z dmiles: hehe yes perfect name Epilog
2017-12-08T00:44:57Z whoman: o-O
2017-12-08T00:45:02Z dmiles: ugh never google Prolog and Epilog together
2017-12-08T00:45:41Z dmiles: oh Epilog is coded in lisp
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2017-12-08T00:52:25Z whoman: it better be emacs lisp
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2017-12-08T00:53:27Z dmiles: why is that?
2017-12-08T00:54:30Z dmiles has sorta thought of implementing emacs lisp then use 'emacs-cl' to get to CL
2017-12-08T00:54:52Z dmiles: but i cant tell if emacs lisp is actualyl smaller or not
2017-12-08T00:55:29Z dmiles: also is there a library in CL to make ones lisp act like emacs lisp?
2017-12-08T00:56:00Z whoman: yes
2017-12-08T00:56:09Z whoman: also an impl. in guile =P
2017-12-08T00:56:18Z whoman: also cl-lib from emacs side could help
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2017-12-08T00:56:59Z whoman: elisp is actually quite nice..
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2017-12-08T00:57:20Z aeth: dmiles: I think CL is small enough if you ignore CLOS and loop and use someone else's versions of those. Maybe a few other painful parts.
2017-12-08T00:57:24Z dmiles: i have two two versions one is cl-lib and the otehr  https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl
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2017-12-08T00:57:42Z dmiles: not sure which si better of the two
2017-12-08T00:58:53Z dmiles: aeth: yeah that is what i been finding (that it isnt that biug.. actualyl even clos as far as i can tell in not even as big as Epilog KM or any other lisp applicaiton
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2017-12-08T01:00:04Z whoman: emacs-cl is definately older, cl-lib is official builtin
2017-12-08T01:00:16Z dmiles alwasy feels worse in #lisp when he unballances ()s
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2017-12-08T01:01:02Z aeth: it's fine, as long as you escape it first. #\(
2017-12-08T01:01:08Z whoman: (=
2017-12-08T01:02:36Z dmiles: hah
2017-12-08T01:03:05Z pjb: or even
2017-12-08T01:03:07Z pjb: \(
2017-12-08T01:03:57Z pjb: (car '(\()) --> \(
2017-12-08T01:05:46Z dmiles adds (symbol-name '\() to sanity-tests
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2017-12-08T01:06:21Z dmiles: oh and (symbol-name :\()
2017-12-08T01:08:20Z dmiles: clhs get-setf-method-inverse
2017-12-08T01:08:20Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for get-setf-method-inverse.
2017-12-08T01:08:27Z dmiles: ok good
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2017-12-08T01:10:26Z Bike: i think sbcl uses that to get cheap expansions from short defsetf.
2017-12-08T01:11:04Z dmiles: yeah i saw it in sbcl, xcl and abcl made me wonder
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2017-12-08T01:12:37Z dmiles: if it was standard
2017-12-08T01:14:08Z dmiles: xcl extracted much of sbcl sources is why
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2017-12-08T01:15:11Z dmiles: it apears /me leaves of the last few words
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2017-12-08T01:15:50Z stylewarning: my lisp & quantum computing talk is online https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9vRcSAneiw
2017-12-08T01:16:27Z dmiles: of every sentence /me was actually paid once to write a neurolinguistic personal auditing program to detect souls whom do this
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2017-12-08T01:17:49Z dmiles: since they may often be the most likely to do reprisal attacks against previous employers
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2017-12-08T01:26:12Z dmiles should starts charging for Ashkenazi genetic profiling
2017-12-08T01:26:36Z dmiles: oh, it was only the person doing introductions
2017-12-08T01:31:18Z whoman: oy
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2017-12-08T01:33:22Z dmiles: vey
2017-12-08T01:33:24Z Bike: ...ashenkazi...?
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2017-12-08T01:36:21Z dmiles: ashkenazi are a group of less 350 jews whom decendended from some italian women whom are now over 2 million people.. but prabably quite more.. since most do not know they came from this group
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2017-12-08T01:37:02Z dmiles: (or have any jewish people in their family anymore)
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2017-12-08T01:37:47Z drmeister: Hey - does anyone use dtrace?    I'm trying to use it on clasp and it's not cooperating.
2017-12-08T01:38:12Z Devon: I use it all the time.
2017-12-08T01:38:37Z Devon: MacOSX hacked it to not work on most of their stuff.
2017-12-08T01:41:14Z Devon: I generally use this bash command at http://jovi.net/dtrace
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2017-12-08T02:19:25Z drmeister: Devon: Thank you.
2017-12-08T02:20:07Z drmeister: I figured out my problem.    I'm profiling our own code (Clasp Common Lisp) and I needed to start and stop profiling for a particular function.
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2017-12-08T02:20:28Z drmeister: I think I should buy the dtrace book.
2017-12-08T02:20:51Z drmeister: This is what I ended up doing.
2017-12-08T02:20:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PwY0ggJt/
2017-12-08T02:21:05Z drmeister: That generated this:
2017-12-08T02:21:17Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/hA4zAt1b/out-flame.svg
2017-12-08T02:22:24Z drmeister: That says that 86% of the time is being spent in LLVM.
2017-12-08T02:22:56Z drmeister: It's pretty clear that I have been undercounting the amount of time that Clasp spends running LLVM
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2017-12-08T02:35:27Z Bike: how did that happen?
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2017-12-08T02:39:46Z dmiles: stylewarning: btw, great pros/cons on languages
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2017-12-08T03:04:15Z hooman: ,clhs defvar
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2017-12-08T03:19:15Z Bike: clhs defvar
2017-12-08T03:19:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2017-12-08T03:30:29Z hooman: thanks Bike ! it just bit my ankle that (defvar x) leaves 'x unbound ^_^/
2017-12-08T03:31:03Z hooman was trying to save 4 bytes
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2017-12-08T04:16:17Z hooman: clim-debugger is great, shows down to the cons (!), available on quicklisp.
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2017-12-08T04:16:59Z loke: hooman: The SLIME debugger does that too, and more.
2017-12-08T04:17:36Z loke: hooman: The neat things about CLIM is its ability to mix graphical representations of objects with text.
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2017-12-08T04:21:16Z hooman: loke: ah really? i was just clicking, because ive never debugged lisp before, and i was clicking into cons cells and arrows were pointing at stuff etc
2017-12-08T04:21:40Z loke: Yes. Are you not using SLIME?
2017-12-08T04:21:54Z hooman: i am using slime yes
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2017-12-08T04:23:06Z hooman: but i am also having the issue with graphics , from common lisp to the screen, it is not a good time with SDL =)
2017-12-08T04:23:07Z loke: hooman: Then type an expression that returns a value, say (list 1 2 (cons 3 4) 5)) press RET and you should see the resulting list in red in the REPL. Then move the cursor to the result and press C-c C-v TAB
2017-12-08T04:23:20Z hooman: i will try to play around with clim-listener as well and see if it could animate some things
2017-12-08T04:23:26Z loke: that opens the SLIME inspector for that value.
2017-12-08T04:24:28Z hooman: loke: ah cool!
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2017-12-08T04:36:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-08T04:36:55Z whoman: good morning
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2017-12-08T04:48:17Z shka: beach: good morning
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2017-12-08T05:03:26Z parjanya: hi! how can "print" a standard-char as a simple string? like (print #\a) returning just "a"?
2017-12-08T05:04:44Z shka: parjanya: i would use format
2017-12-08T05:05:00Z shka: (format nil "~a" #\a)
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2017-12-08T05:06:31Z parjanya: shka: ah, thank you! :) weird, I tried something similar and it didn’t work
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2017-12-08T05:24:10Z stylewarning: parjanya: (string #\a)
2017-12-08T05:26:28Z myrkraverk: What is the simplest way to print carriage-return in Lisp?  To make an auto-updating status in a terminal, thing.
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2017-12-08T05:27:26Z beach: (princ #\Return) I would think.  No?
2017-12-08T05:28:11Z myrkraverk: Probably.
2017-12-08T05:30:02Z SaganMan: Morning everyone
2017-12-08T05:30:18Z beach: Hello SaganMan.
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2017-12-08T07:32:19Z Shinmera: Ugh, looks like ASDF 3.3.1 breaks yet another one of my projects in a subtle way
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2017-12-08T08:13:01Z hajovonta: good morning!
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2017-12-08T08:34:43Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-12-08T08:58:22Z shrdlu68: I'm using a ramfs file system as an octet vector and the speeds seem to be slow.
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2017-12-08T08:59:07Z shrdlu68: I'm using #'file-position to go to :start and :end.
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2017-12-08T09:01:34Z shrdlu68: I need a really huge octet vector and using sbcl with --dynamic-space-size seems to use swap and gobble up so much memory the system becomes unresponsive.
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2017-12-08T09:04:02Z |3b|: how huge / how much ram is available?
2017-12-08T09:05:58Z |3b|: and do you need to be able to use normal CL vector ops on it? (guessing not if you can replace it with file ops)
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2017-12-08T09:07:56Z shrdlu68: |3b|: I need 309319296 x 40 bits, which I think should use around 1.5GB.
2017-12-08T09:08:02Z shrdlu68: The system has 8GB of RAM.
2017-12-08T09:08:47Z schweers: that sounds like --dynamic-space-size and a regular vector or array should do the job
2017-12-08T09:08:56Z schweers: how much ram is in use?
2017-12-08T09:09:08Z |3b|: by N x 40 bits you mean you need that many values with at least that many bits? or a n*40 bitvector?
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2017-12-08T09:09:41Z shrdlu68: 40 bits n times.
2017-12-08T09:10:49Z shrdlu68: Perhaps the mistake I made was to create an n-size array of elements each an array of 40bits (5 octets) rather than just one octet vector.
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2017-12-08T09:11:11Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds like a bad idea
2017-12-08T09:11:34Z |3b|: a 5 octet vector probably adds more overhead than contents
2017-12-08T09:12:02Z |3b|: (on 64 bit lisp, the pointer pointing to it is probably 8 bytes by itself, not including the actual array headers etc)
2017-12-08T09:12:29Z shrdlu68: Yikes, explains why it just kept gobbling up memory and not stoping.
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2017-12-08T09:13:03Z |3b| would be surprised if the headers for each array were less than 16 bytes
2017-12-08T09:13:17Z |3b|: and not surprised by 2-3x that much
2017-12-08T09:14:12Z |3b|: also, you are using types arrays for the octets, right? :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2017-12-08T09:14:44Z shrdlu68: Yes.
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2017-12-08T09:15:00Z shrdlu68: Let me try with this new insight.
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2017-12-08T09:15:30Z |3b|: yeah, single flat vector of octets should fit in 8GB
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2017-12-08T09:24:41Z |3b|: yeah, 309319296 x 5-element octet vectors uses ~12GB, (* 5 309319296) element octet vector uses ~1.6GB
2017-12-08T09:25:15Z dmiles: do some lisps set a symbol that reflects what flags are on for eval-when macro ?
2017-12-08T09:26:14Z dmiles: i am abvout to for my lisp but i dislike making up names for this special var
2017-12-08T09:28:15Z beach: I set *COMPILER* to be either EVAL, COMPILE, or COMPILE-FILE.  But I am not sure that's the best solution.
2017-12-08T09:29:01Z dmiles: is it set :execute  the rest of the time?
2017-12-08T09:29:28Z dmiles: oops n/m :EVAL the rest of them?
2017-12-08T09:30:21Z beach: I guess so.
2017-12-08T09:31:23Z |3b|: for first case, looks like ~2.4GB is the 8-byte pointers in the big array, 9.9GB is the 5-element arrays, so about 32 bytes per 5-octet array (i'm guessing 24 bytes of header + 3 bytes of padding to round data up to a whole word of space)
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2017-12-08T09:35:05Z dmiles: would (eval-when (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute) .. ) ever be untrue?
2017-12-08T09:35:38Z dmiles assumes these are ORed
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2017-12-08T09:37:53Z beach: dmiles: It is not a Boolean expression.  It has to do with calling or not calling EVAL at compile-time, and generating or not generating code to be run at load time.
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2017-12-08T09:40:55Z dmiles: it does mean though if  :eval :compile or :compile-file in your case are found in *COMPILER* then to treat the code as there
2017-12-08T09:41:02Z dmiles: +?
2017-12-08T09:42:25Z beach: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-12-08T09:42:25Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-12-08T09:42:43Z beach: That ↑ is what I do.
2017-12-08T09:43:12Z dmiles: perfect
2017-12-08T09:43:51Z beach: dmiles: When implementing a Common Lisp system, if you have a choice between doing it according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec and not doing it according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec, the first choice is always the best.
2017-12-08T09:44:14Z shrdlu68: |3b|: Didn't work, it was still gobling up memory for some reason, I've switched to CCL.
2017-12-08T09:44:29Z dmiles: i was reading eval-when and wasnt completely sure..  most of the time i match the examples
2017-12-08T09:44:59Z dmiles: (from the clhs)
2017-12-08T09:45:56Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec examples are not normative, though, and they sometimes contain errors.
2017-12-08T09:46:58Z |3b|: shrdlu68: sounds like a reasonable workaround if it works :)
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2017-12-08T09:47:03Z dmiles: too bad http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm#eval-when doesnt like the 3.2.3.1 section
2017-12-08T09:47:17Z dmiles: like/link
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2017-12-08T09:52:56Z pjb: shrdlu68: syscalls are way slower than function calls, which themselves are slower than inline native instructions to index an array.
2017-12-08T09:54:47Z pjb: dmiles: wfm http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
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2017-12-08T09:57:23Z dmiles: yep works for me to.. i was complaining that the eval-when page has great usefull links but everywhere but that page :P .. to have gotten there I would have had to stop at the top-level-forms glossary page first.. which then links to that page
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2017-12-08T10:03:18Z schweers: dmiles: you’re implementing your own common lisp?  for fun and education, or do you think you can do better than those implementations that are already out there?
2017-12-08T10:06:11Z pjb: schweers: he can do different, not necessarily better.
2017-12-08T10:06:17Z pjb: We want different implementations.
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2017-12-08T10:06:34Z hajovonta: diversity is king
2017-12-08T10:06:36Z dmiles: i mostly hope i can do as good as the top 40%.. i am writting it in Prolog for a few reasons.. one is to prove prolog is a general purpose programming language that makes things like creating lisp impls ultra easy. we already know it makes lisp interpretors in less lines than any other language.. but what i am interested in if it can do "as well"
2017-12-08T10:06:39Z pjb: If they were just better, we'd just use the best and be done with it.
2017-12-08T10:07:13Z schweers: ok, better in some respect ;)
2017-12-08T10:07:21Z schweers: dmiles: sounds cool :)
2017-12-08T10:07:38Z schweers has to admit to never having gotten around to learn prolog
2017-12-08T10:07:43Z shrdlu68: sounds like fun.
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2017-12-08T10:07:58Z schweers: dmiles: do you generate native code?
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2017-12-08T10:08:15Z dmiles: i generate protable prolog source code (liek a transpiler)
2017-12-08T10:08:32Z shrdlu68: dmiles: Is the code public yet?
2017-12-08T10:08:48Z dmiles: so the prolog sources can at the repl be evaluated or if its done in compile-file it can be compiled
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2017-12-08T10:08:52Z schweers: are there (somewhat) good prolog native code compilers?
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2017-12-08T10:09:42Z dmiles: there are good and less developed prolog compilers for differnt platforms .. in several langauges
2017-12-08T10:10:04Z schweers: out of curiosity: which implementation(s) do you use?
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2017-12-08T10:10:22Z dmiles: SWI-Prolog, Sicstus, Yap
2017-12-08T10:10:55Z dmiles: (oh of prolgo compiler interpretors)
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2017-12-08T10:12:06Z dmiles: source code shrdlu68 is at  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/tree/master/prolog/wam_cl
2017-12-08T10:12:17Z dmiles: this file https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/sanity-test.lisp  translated to this file: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/sanity-test.lisp.trans.pl
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2017-12-08T10:13:35Z dmiles: the lisp_compile_to_prolog(pkg,..) is there more informationally like: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/sanity-test.lisp.trans.pl#L44-L59
2017-12-08T10:13:59Z dmiles: to gert the symbols interned
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2017-12-08T10:15:07Z dmiles: and to get the symbols interned ( packaged ) so the prolog code at https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/sanity-test.lisp.trans.pl#L74-L88  can be understood
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2017-12-08T10:18:09Z dmiles: to give an example of *normal* implementing of lisp in prolog, it looks like this:  https://www.metalevel.at/lisprolog/lisprolog.pl
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2017-12-08T10:18:33Z dmiles: (thats a reader and evaluator both)
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2017-12-08T10:21:28Z dmiles: so bonuses of the prolog system is it already has a decompiler, exe/dll maker, image load/save
2017-12-08T10:22:34Z dmiles: the drawbacks is the number developer that think implementing object systems on prolog as to be easy
2017-12-08T10:22:50Z schweers: how so?
2017-12-08T10:23:00Z dmiles: developers*  maybe 10 worldwide would call such a thing easy
2017-12-08T10:23:15Z schweers: ah
2017-12-08T10:23:38Z dmiles: though 10,000 probalby have no problem if they bothered to try
2017-12-08T10:24:07Z schweers: I have no idea how many people can read and write prolog code
2017-12-08T10:24:40Z dmiles: everyone that gets to or past phD level in computer science is forced into at least 2 miserable weeks of leanring proliog
2017-12-08T10:25:16Z schweers: sorry if this sounds really stupid (I don’t have a PhD), but ... why?
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2017-12-08T10:25:36Z jackdaniel: we had prolog course on second year at uni
2017-12-08T10:25:36Z dmiles: they come away as much mythology as people would with lisp unfortiantly
2017-12-08T10:25:39Z jackdaniel: very cool language
2017-12-08T10:25:58Z jackdaniel: which broads programming perspectives
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2017-12-08T10:26:15Z schweers: I mean, why do people aspiring to this level /have/ to learn prolog?
2017-12-08T10:26:42Z schweers: jackdaniel: I imagine that to be the case, which is why I can see myself learning the language some day
2017-12-08T10:26:44Z jackdaniel: I suppose they are required to know at least some important programming paradigms
2017-12-08T10:26:49Z dmiles: jackdaniel: did they require lisp at some points to?
2017-12-08T10:26:53Z schweers: along with a few other languages
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2017-12-08T10:27:27Z jackdaniel: they did not
2017-12-08T10:27:40Z jackdaniel: but I've made AI scientific club and introduced Lisp there
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2017-12-08T10:30:07Z schweers: dmiles, jackdaniel: do you think free prolog implementations of today are usable or real world applications?  Or is the language as it is today “only” useful to broaden the mind?  Which would be totally fine if you ask me, that is still a very good reason to learn a language.
2017-12-08T10:31:07Z dmiles: definately very good for todays applications.. i think even more for future applications..  I have two applications that i would not even immagine using anthing other than prolog
2017-12-08T10:31:22Z schweers: on the other hand: if it were not, I guess you wouldn’t be writing a lisp implementation in it ;)
2017-12-08T10:31:35Z schweers: oh, including lisp?
2017-12-08T10:31:36Z dmiles: other then making a prolog-in-lisp (as most people end up) in my case
2017-12-08T10:32:28Z jackdaniel: I didn't use prolog outside this uni course
2017-12-08T10:32:34Z jackdaniel: I did like the easter egg though
2017-12-08T10:32:37Z dmiles: so i immagine 95% of the world would use lisp for such apps and make a prolog interpretor but leverage the inteire lisp ecosystem
2017-12-08T10:32:41Z jackdaniel: X=Y was that I think
2017-12-08T10:33:50Z dmiles: easter egg?  https://pastebin.com/xkfKHEyT
2017-12-08T10:34:20Z jackdaniel: right, this one
2017-12-08T10:37:15Z dmiles: those applicaitons:  a general purpose problem solver/simulator that can learn and be taught
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2017-12-08T10:38:57Z dmiles: and can make further applications for running on computers that are based on what it learns from the previous
2017-12-08T10:40:17Z jackdaniel: hm, interesting perspective
2017-12-08T10:40:19Z dmiles: if one knew exactly how that was supposed to work.. lisp and prolog would be most natrual choices at that point
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2017-12-08T10:43:06Z dmiles: neitehr languages are going to have what you need built.. what they offer is one the ability to design top down
2017-12-08T10:45:37Z dmiles: (well that they make *extreme* abstraction simple)
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2017-12-08T10:46:23Z varjag: the original problem with prolog was it doesn't scale up to real world problems
2017-12-08T10:46:28Z varjag: combinatorial explosion
2017-12-08T10:46:39Z varjag: so they introduced pruning
2017-12-08T10:46:53Z varjag: which detracts a lot from the original point of the language
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2017-12-08T10:49:55Z dmiles: a huge project CYC made a prolog-like-system-in-lisp ... writting in their language has shown me incredicable ammounts of untility that prolog as a language is afraid to adopt
2017-12-08T10:50:06Z dmiles: utility*
2017-12-08T10:50:16Z otwieracz: Hi!
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2017-12-08T10:50:32Z jackdaniel: hello o/
2017-12-08T10:50:35Z otwieracz: I've got some weird pthreads/bordeaux-threads/maybe-lparallel related issue https://gist.github.com/otwieracz/d88dfc0d8b726f2610dda310e2b1e406
2017-12-08T10:50:39Z otwieracz: Oh, hi jackdaniel.
2017-12-08T10:50:44Z otwieracz: Seems like you're going to work today. ;)
2017-12-08T10:50:45Z dmiles: i suppose one would come to the same place with OntologyWorks or PowerLOOM
2017-12-08T10:51:01Z jackdaniel: otwieracz: yes, on threads- but in ECL
2017-12-08T10:51:14Z jackdaniel: but I keep fingers crossed for you :)
2017-12-08T10:51:33Z otwieracz: TL;DR - I've got a case where binary build with both CCL and SBCL lacks mutex fairness on certain machines.
2017-12-08T10:51:57Z otwieracz: Like, CentOS 7 in Google Cloud Platform. But not Ubuntu on GCP or CentOS on proxmox on bare metal.
2017-12-08T10:52:18Z otwieracz: And I have no idea where to report it. To BT, lparallel, SBCL or CCL? :)
2017-12-08T10:52:57Z jackdaniel: lparallel and bt seem like a bad fit, since they build abstraction on top of threads provided by the implementation
2017-12-08T10:53:10Z jackdaniel: since problem bites both sbcl and ccl it is not these implementations problem either (most probably)
2017-12-08T10:53:16Z otwieracz: But from the other hand, both CCL and SBCL are affected.
2017-12-08T10:53:30Z jackdaniel: so it is either something in pthread implementation on the machine, or Linux + Virtualization
2017-12-08T10:53:44Z otwieracz: That was my (and still is) my best guess.
2017-12-08T10:54:11Z otwieracz: Something weird happends and falls into uncommon case where due to virtualization CPU sharing something is being, maybe, optimized.
2017-12-08T10:54:16Z otwieracz: But I am totally guessing.
2017-12-08T10:54:37Z otwieracz: Still, I don't believe such bug will remain undetected if it won't be lisp-specific.
2017-12-08T10:54:42Z jackdaniel: so I don't think you should report it to any of these four projects
2017-12-08T10:55:03Z jackdaniel: bugs are undetected until someone detects them ;)
2017-12-08T10:55:13Z otwieracz: I should delete this gist and sit silent? :)
2017-12-08T10:55:29Z jackdaniel: nope, I would try to escalate to GCP
2017-12-08T10:55:45Z otwieracz: How? Hi, I've got a lisp program and it has mutex issues.
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2017-12-08T10:56:05Z otwieracz: I am afraid I first have to prove that problem is on their side before I blame them.
2017-12-08T10:56:08Z jackdaniel doesn't know google procedures for reporting bugs in their virtualization platforms
2017-12-08T10:56:51Z otwieracz: I'll try it on AWS.
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2017-12-08T10:58:52Z dmiles: schweers, so as varjag was saying (i think) is most out of the box supposed features people learn to do on a small scale (niave brute force search and inference) do not work on a large scale. but is very enjoyable on a toy levels.   Though if a person uses prolog as a macro programming language instead of a structured query language it scales to every level - no problem
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2017-12-08T11:00:13Z pjb: otwieracz: I don't see any problem: other thread is correctly printed after a unlocking message.
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2017-12-08T11:00:29Z schweers: sounds a bit like the situation with lisp: yes, lists are kinda cool for some algorithms (espectially to transform code) but shouldn’t be used in the large
2017-12-08T11:00:33Z pjb: otwieracz: I would just add finish-output after each format to ensure more reliable output.
2017-12-08T11:00:58Z jackdaniel: pjb: there is no mutex fairness
2017-12-08T11:01:13Z pjb: None was guaranted in the first place.
2017-12-08T11:01:22Z jackdaniel: so one thread is starved despite tryting to get the lock
2017-12-08T11:01:29Z schweers: I’m off for lunch, bbl
2017-12-08T11:01:31Z pjb: Yes, it may happen.
2017-12-08T11:01:44Z otwieracz: pjb: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Mutex-Support
2017-12-08T11:01:45Z dmiles: schweers, cheers
2017-12-08T11:01:50Z otwieracz: 12.4
2017-12-08T11:01:52Z otwieracz: „Mutexes are used for controlling access to a shared resource. One thread is allowed to hold the mutex, others which attempt to take it will be made to wait until it's free. Threads are woken in the order that they go to sleep. ”
2017-12-08T11:01:54Z jackdaniel: unfair mutexes are not overly useful
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2017-12-08T11:02:13Z otwieracz: pjb: *other thread* goes to sleep second or third, let's say. At most.
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2017-12-08T11:02:24Z otwieracz: pjb: Is woken up at the very end on some platforms.
2017-12-08T11:02:46Z otwieracz: pjb: On others, correctly, just after thread started before it unlocked the lock.
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2017-12-08T11:02:56Z pjb: otwieracz: obviously, in sbcl, the other thread went to sleep first.
2017-12-08T11:03:10Z pjb: Try to make them go to sleep in a different order!
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2017-12-08T11:03:27Z otwieracz: I mean, wait.
2017-12-08T11:03:31Z pjb: eg. add (sleep 1) in do-in-loop.
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2017-12-08T11:03:49Z pjb: or 0.01
2017-12-08T11:03:54Z otwieracz: let me add one finish-output
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2017-12-08T11:04:13Z otwieracz: But:
2017-12-08T11:04:28Z otwieracz: „locking” message is printed just before any of looping threads goes to sleep. Correct?
2017-12-08T11:04:44Z pjb: without a finish-output, no, not necessarily.
2017-12-08T11:04:55Z otwieracz: OK, I will add finish-outputs, of course.
2017-12-08T11:05:18Z pjb: format only fills the buffer.
2017-12-08T11:06:01Z otwieracz: I am just testing it, give me a second
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2017-12-08T11:11:35Z otwieracz: pjb: updated & tested https://gist.github.com/otwieracz/d88dfc0d8b726f2610dda310e2b1e406
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2017-12-08T11:13:13Z pjb: look good
2017-12-08T11:13:26Z otwieracz: …it doesn't?
2017-12-08T11:13:45Z otwieracz: On one machine it looks good, right. On the other still acts wrong.
2017-12-08T11:14:01Z otwieracz: finish-output changed nothing.
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2017-12-08T11:22:59Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: it's not GCP issue, same issue on Amazon Linux in EC2.
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2017-12-08T11:23:47Z jackdaniel: maybe they use the same virtualization software?
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2017-12-08T11:24:45Z otwieracz: No idea.
2017-12-08T11:25:25Z jackdaniel: if centos7 allows you to change kernel version, try newer Linux, that could narrow it even further
2017-12-08T11:25:47Z otwieracz: it doesn't.
2017-12-08T11:25:49Z otwieracz: IIRC
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2017-12-08T11:28:37Z phoe: How can I force ASDF dependencies to be loaded in a given order?
2017-12-08T11:28:48Z jackdaniel: add depends-on clause
2017-12-08T11:28:52Z phoe: jackdaniel: thanks.
2017-12-08T11:29:45Z pjb: otwieracz: you still did nothing to ensure the threads go lock in the order you want.
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2017-12-08T11:31:44Z otwieracz: Why do you think so?
2017-12-08T11:32:33Z otwieracz: You see when each thread is started, when is starts waiting on lock and when it acquires it.
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2017-12-08T11:36:17Z otwieracz: There is no way for any of the looping threads to sleep on lock before outputting „locking”.
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2017-12-08T11:41:43Z phoe: How can I sort a list "like" the other? I mean, I have a list of class names, (FOO BAR BAZ QUUX FRED), and I have a list of objects that are (in)direct instances of these classes. I want to sort all of these objects so all FOOs come first, then come all BARs, then come all BAZs, and so on.
2017-12-08T11:42:28Z phoe: The instances are subclasses of one and only one of these classes, so there is no ambiguity here.
2017-12-08T11:42:48Z Shinmera: (loop for class in classes nconc (loop for instance in instances when (instancep instance class) collect instance))
2017-12-08T11:43:37Z loke: phoe: (sort INSTANCES #'string< :key #'class-of )
2017-12-08T11:43:56Z Shinmera: loke: That's not what he wants.
2017-12-08T11:43:58Z loke: Oh wait.
2017-12-08T11:44:01Z loke: Yeah, I noticed.
2017-12-08T11:44:07Z phoe: loke: this will sort them in order, but not in the order that I want.
2017-12-08T11:44:19Z phoe: string< will give me a lexicographic order.
2017-12-08T11:44:30Z Shinmera: Anyway, your sorting is not really a sorting at all but an implicit grouping.
2017-12-08T11:44:30Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks, I will check it out in a moment.
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2017-12-08T11:54:47Z shrdlu68: clustering
2017-12-08T11:56:01Z shrdlu68: You can sort to cluster them, and them sort the subsequences by some means.
2017-12-08T11:56:17Z phoe: Yep, it's not sorting per se. More like radix sort of thing.
2017-12-08T11:57:02Z phoe: I could perhaps go O(n) by going through the list and going (push instance (gethash (class-of instance) hash-table))
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2017-12-08T11:57:16Z phoe: And then reading the hash-table values in the given order, nconcing the results.
2017-12-08T11:58:34Z Shinmera: profile before you try to optimise it
2017-12-08T11:59:14Z pjb: otwieracz: try: http://sprunge.us/QeBC
2017-12-08T12:00:29Z pjb: otwieracz: threading is not deterministic.  Each thread executes at its own speed.  Perhaps in parallel, perhaps sequentially with other threads (you can have different number of cores available!).  Some threads may be busy processing unix signals, which may occur randomly.
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2017-12-08T12:03:37Z otwieracz: https://pastebin.ca/3945684
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2017-12-08T12:04:23Z otwieracz: But I need to look into your code, as I don't know what you've changed yet.
2017-12-08T12:05:10Z pjb: with it you should obtain the same output on all systems, I'd say.
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2017-12-08T12:05:41Z shrdlu68: Is there a built-in binary search?
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2017-12-08T12:07:03Z pjb: Well, actually I would have expected the "thread # waits on starting condition" messages closer to the "submitting thread #" messages.
2017-12-08T12:07:33Z pjb: shrdlu68: nope, but there are com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:dichotomy and com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:dichotomy-search
2017-12-08T12:07:40Z otwieracz: ok, but why it didn't finished?
2017-12-08T12:07:58Z pjb: I extended the sleep to 20.
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2017-12-08T12:08:25Z pjb: (I expect the starting synchronization to take a little time).  Otherwise it finishes here.
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2017-12-08T12:25:22Z shaftoe: any way to destructure a property list?
2017-12-08T12:25:42Z pjb: Not if you assume random order of the key-value pairs.
2017-12-08T12:25:56Z shaftoe: what about alist?
2017-12-08T12:25:59Z pjb: idem.
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2017-12-08T12:26:31Z pjb: You could do: (destructuring-bind (&optional  k1 v1 k2 v2 k3 v3 &rest others) p-list …)
2017-12-08T12:26:49Z shaftoe: lemme try that
2017-12-08T12:27:57Z pjb: But it wouldn't help, since you'd have to test for each key.
2017-12-08T12:28:49Z pjb: Better just do: (let ((v1 (getf plist k1)) (v2 (getf plist k2)) …) …)
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2017-12-08T12:29:04Z mrSpec: shaftoe: (destructuring-bind (&key a b) '(:b 5 :a 10) (print a)) isn't what you are looking for?
2017-12-08T12:29:35Z pjb: that would work, silly me…
2017-12-08T12:31:19Z shaftoe: ahh cool
2017-12-08T12:31:22Z shaftoe: cheers
2017-12-08T12:34:26Z mrSpec: :)
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2017-12-08T12:52:50Z _death: also good to have &allow-other-keys
2017-12-08T12:54:56Z _death: wrote this some time ago https://gist.github.com/death/898330dda627876b00a05b33b11124f7
2017-12-08T12:57:50Z kolb: Is this a bug, or UB?
2017-12-08T12:57:56Z kolb: (with-simple-restart (abort "Exit command level ~D." level) (find-restart 'abort))
2017-12-08T12:58:25Z kolb: (this returns an invalid pointer in both SBCL and CCL)
2017-12-08T12:58:33Z kolb: 1.4.1, 1.11 respectively
2017-12-08T12:58:46Z kolb: cpape: ^^^
2017-12-08T12:58:58Z Younder: _death, powerplay ;)
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2017-12-08T13:02:35Z pjb: kolb: nope:  (let ((level 0)) (with-simple-restart (abort "Exit command level ~D." level) (print (find-restart 'abort)))) #| #<restart abort #x34B5AEAD>  --> #<BOGUS object @ #x34B5AEAD> |#
2017-12-08T13:02:54Z pjb: kolb: the returned object is a restart, as expected.  But it's dynamic extend.
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2017-12-08T13:03:19Z pjb: It becomes invalid when you get out of dynamic scope, since you cannot invoke it anymore.
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2017-12-08T13:04:05Z kolb: pjb: so you say its UB to return that restart?
2017-12-08T13:04:14Z pjb: yes.
2017-12-08T13:04:17Z phoe: breaking dynamic extent is undefined.
2017-12-08T13:04:26Z kolb: cpape: ^^^
2017-12-08T13:04:26Z phoe: you're basically returning what has already been freed.
2017-12-08T13:04:41Z kolb: SBCL still shouldn’t segfault
2017-12-08T13:04:56Z phoe: kolb: it can do whatever it pleases, it's undefined to do that in code.
2017-12-08T13:04:58Z Shinmera: It'd be nice if it wouldn't, but UB is UB.
2017-12-08T13:05:02Z kolb: CCL behavior seems more sensible
2017-12-08T13:05:11Z phoe: kolb: CCL also can do whatever it pleases, it's undefined to do that in code.
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2017-12-08T13:05:39Z kolb: "klar, kannste schon so machen, ist dann halt kacke"
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2017-12-08T13:06:18Z Bike: dx violations are unfortunately kind of hard to determine sometimes.
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2017-12-08T13:06:25Z phoe: translation for non-Deutsch people: owszem, można to tak zrobić, ale i tak wyjdzie do dupy
2017-12-08T13:06:42Z Bike: lol
2017-12-08T13:06:49Z phoe: (:
2017-12-08T13:06:54Z kolb: :-)
2017-12-08T13:07:12Z kolb: international fam
2017-12-08T13:07:21Z Bike: hard to determine -> for the compiler, i mean, thus why you get bad behavior instead of an error.
2017-12-08T13:07:35Z shrdlu68: Is there a library that contains a sorting function such that I can sort subsequences in a sequences in a straight-forward manner?
2017-12-08T13:08:01Z shrdlu68: An "extensible" sorting function.
2017-12-08T13:08:16Z phoe: shrdlu68: subsequences in sequences? you could theoretically create displaced arrays (for vectors) and sort these
2017-12-08T13:08:17Z Bike: or just sort with :begin and :end?
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2017-12-08T13:08:26Z phoe: and use some sort of mapc for nested lists.
2017-12-08T13:08:31Z phoe: or what Bike said.
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2017-12-08T13:09:02Z Bike: well that's not true, it would have to be sort guaranteed to be in place
2017-12-08T13:09:04Z shrdlu68: I mean compare the subsequences to each other and sort them accordingly.
2017-12-08T13:09:06Z pjb: (let ((foo (coerce (loop repeat 20 collect (random 10)) 'vector)))  (sort (make-array 10 :displaced-to foo :displaced-index-offset 5) '<) foo) #| --> #(0 5 9 5 1 0 1 2 2 2 3 4 5 6 9 2 0 3 8 1) |#
2017-12-08T13:09:14Z Bike: oh. that's weird.
2017-12-08T13:09:18Z pjb: Why do you want libraries for oneliners?
2017-12-08T13:09:32Z Bike: Like, use elements 0 and 1 as a value somehow, then 2 and 3, then 4 and 5?
2017-12-08T13:09:58Z shrdlu68: I've had to use a flat vector rather than a vector of vectors, hence the mess.
2017-12-08T13:10:35Z pjb: shrdlu68: use displaced arrays and no mess at all!
2017-12-08T13:10:52Z Bike: pjb, i think you missed the clarification.
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2017-12-08T13:11:29Z kolb: phoe: I fed the polish version back into google translate, funny expression!
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2017-12-08T13:11:43Z pjb: You can build a vector of displaced arrays, sort it, and then do whatever you want with the result.
2017-12-08T13:12:26Z shrdlu68: pjb: It's a huge structure, the overhead would likely overwhelm my 8G of RAM.
2017-12-08T13:12:38Z pjb: Then do it as you want.
2017-12-08T13:13:04Z pjb: Alternatively, I take bitcoins for small (or big) jobs.
2017-12-08T13:13:15Z schweers: I want to treat a double-float as 8 consecutive bytes.  Is there a portable way of doing so apart from using CFFI?
2017-12-08T13:13:34Z _death: shrdlu68: for data of this size you'd likely want to write something yourself
2017-12-08T13:13:42Z phoe: schweers: no. The representation, according to standathe standard, is implementation-dependent.
2017-12-08T13:13:43Z Bike: schweers: there's an ieee-floats library that i think can do that.
2017-12-08T13:14:17Z schweers: ok, lets say semi-portable: sbcl and ccl would be enough for me
2017-12-08T13:14:20Z pjb: schweers: com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.ieee-754:float-64-to-ieee-754 and com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.ieee-754:ieee-754-to-float-64
2017-12-08T13:14:23Z Bike: it is, but you can standardly get a significand and exponent and sign.
2017-12-08T13:14:25Z shrdlu68: _death: I see, I was making sure I was not missing an easier way of doing it.
2017-12-08T13:14:26Z mrSpec: _death: personally I think &allow-other-keys makes code harder to debug, when you miss something and destructuring-bind doesn't protest.
2017-12-08T13:14:29Z phoe: Bike: oh. Hm. Correct.
2017-12-08T13:14:30Z schweers: Bike: thanks, I’ll look at that
2017-12-08T13:14:39Z phoe: And from the sig/exp/sign you can compute the float back.
2017-12-08T13:14:46Z pjb: see also decode-float and integer-decode-float, and scale-float, etc.
2017-12-08T13:14:47Z schweers: pjb: thanks, I’ll look at that too :)
2017-12-08T13:14:57Z _death: shrdlu68: also, may want to do it without consuming so much RAM, but that's just oldtimer speaking ;)
2017-12-08T13:15:38Z _death: mrSpec: sure, but I often use plists for their ad-hoc extensibility.. otherwise, classes/structs will do
2017-12-08T13:16:23Z mrSpec: got it
2017-12-08T13:16:24Z Bike: looks like it returns an integer, but that's pretty straightforwardly turned into a byte vector if you want that
2017-12-08T13:16:37Z pjb: and mind the exponent too.
2017-12-08T13:16:46Z shrdlu68: _death: I'm not an oldtimer but I too feel this is inelegant. I have to generate combinations with repetitions, and I'm not aware of an efficient algorithm of doing so.
2017-12-08T13:17:32Z schweers: pjb: does this handle special cases like NaN and infinity?
2017-12-08T13:17:51Z pjb: schweers: not necessarily.
2017-12-08T13:18:07Z pjb: I didn't assume that such values could be lisp objects.
2017-12-08T13:18:10Z _death: shrdlu68: is this for testing (maybe fuzzing?)
2017-12-08T13:18:57Z phoe: schweers: NaN/infinity values aren't portable. CL standard doesn't conform to the IEEE float standard.
2017-12-08T13:19:11Z shrdlu68: _death: Nope.
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2017-12-08T13:20:12Z schweers: As both SBCL and CCL have infinity I should be fine, especially as I only /really/ care about SBCl.  CCL portability is only something I aspire to in order to not be tied to just one implementation.
2017-12-08T13:20:17Z _death: shrdlu68: I see.. it seems like a classic problem so I'm guessing there are academic papers
2017-12-08T13:20:31Z schweers: so thanks for the tips, I’ll look into both of them
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2017-12-08T13:36:48Z pjb: schweers: I wouldn't even know how to get infinity in lisp, since (/ 0)  #| ERROR: division-by-zero detected performing / on (1 0) |#
2017-12-08T13:37:12Z pjb: (* most-positive-double-float most-positive-double-float) #| ERROR: floating-point-overflow detected performing * on (1.7976931348623157D+308 1.7976931348623157D+308) |#
2017-12-08T13:37:13Z pjb: etc.
2017-12-08T13:37:29Z schweers: pjb: I also havn’t found a portable way to do so.  Both SBCL and CCL have constants for this.
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2017-12-08T13:38:12Z schweers: Ah, I’ve even got something for ecl although I can’t use it for different reasons
2017-12-08T13:38:28Z schweers: sbcl has sb-ext:double-float-positive-infinity and friends
2017-12-08T13:38:41Z schweers: ccl has the same symbol in the package ccl
2017-12-08T13:39:02Z schweers: but I think I don’t need infinity for the use case I described earlier
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2017-12-08T15:09:34Z jfe: hello
2017-12-08T15:10:03Z beach: Hello jfe.
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2017-12-08T15:10:51Z jfe: i'm trying to get the function that corresponds to a symbol in a list but (function ...) seems to only accept "direct" symbols as arguments. is there a trick to doing this?
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2017-12-08T15:11:12Z beach: clhs fdefinition
2017-12-08T15:11:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
2017-12-08T15:12:13Z beach: jfe: You can't use FDEFINITION to find the definition of local functions.  Only global ones.  Is that adequate?
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2017-12-08T15:12:35Z jfe: beach: thanks, yes that's adequate.
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2017-12-08T16:03:32Z phoe: (flet ((foo () 42)) #'foo) returns a proper function
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2017-12-08T16:03:50Z phoe: oh, I think I know what he was trying to do.
2017-12-08T16:04:02Z phoe: he was trying to see if a symbol is lexically fbound.
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2017-12-08T16:19:46Z schweers: is there a way to find the size of a (built-in) type in lisp?  for instance to find out how much space is needed for a fixnum?
2017-12-08T16:20:24Z pjb: Read the source of the implementation.
2017-12-08T16:20:26Z beach: Sure.  Round it up to an even number of bytes, and you have a pretty good idea.
2017-12-08T16:20:49Z Bike: it might not even be a universal quality.
2017-12-08T16:20:58Z schweers: I meant whether ther was a way to go from a type specifier to a number of bits or bytes
2017-12-08T16:21:15Z beach: schweers: Common Lisp doesn't work that way.
2017-12-08T16:21:20Z Shinmera: CL says nothing about memory, so no
2017-12-08T16:21:28Z pjb: It's ludicruous to try to know the size of fixnum: it could be inlined!
2017-12-08T16:21:31Z Bike: For example, you could have a complex that takes up a header word and two content words boxed, but in some situations it could be unboxed and only be the content words.
2017-12-08T16:21:53Z schweers: yeah, normally.  I know.  I thought I could make my cludge less hacky ;)
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2017-12-08T16:22:19Z Bike: If your kludge involves objects having coherent sizes it's already too hacky. What are you doing?
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2017-12-08T16:23:24Z schweers: I have a large amount of data which will not fit into ram, so I’m offloading it into an on-disk key-value store (kyotocabinet).  I can but byte vectors in there, and I want to dump a simple struct which constists of only ints and floats.
2017-12-08T16:23:33Z varjag: you can keep all your data over in c-land via cffi, and know the size of that
2017-12-08T16:23:37Z varjag is half-kidding
2017-12-08T16:23:43Z schweers: that is also why I asked about putting floats into a byte vector a little while ago
2017-12-08T16:24:02Z Bike: So you want to serialize.
2017-12-08T16:24:08Z schweers: varjag: I was thinking about that.  Would have done it if I hadn’t gotten a good answer here ;)
2017-12-08T16:24:13Z schweers: basically, yes
2017-12-08T16:24:18Z schweers: but I want it compact
2017-12-08T16:24:35Z Bike: If you're only worried about integers and floats- for floats, you can check your implementation documentation. For integers, integer-length will tell you how many bits are required to store it.
2017-12-08T16:24:36Z pjb: If you want your data on file, then why do you care about the internal representation?
2017-12-08T16:24:41Z pjb: Just write the bytes you want!
2017-12-08T16:24:48Z Bike: Yes, the lisp's representation is irrelevant.
2017-12-08T16:25:02Z pjb: See for example: com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.
2017-12-08T16:25:28Z Bike: And for an integer type specifier, well, (unsigned-byte 7) means it takes seven bits if you don't need a sign, of course
2017-12-08T16:25:48Z schweers: pjb: that is what I am doing, I just wondered if there was a better way.  But given your comments and some more thought I guess it may be the right way after all
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2017-12-08T16:26:48Z Bike: If you're worried about other possibly compound objects, the internal representation might not help since it could be full of pointers
2017-12-08T16:27:07Z Bike: which pretty much does you no good.
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2017-12-08T16:27:41Z schweers: nah, I know they consist only of primitives
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2017-12-08T16:53:37Z jfe: can someone here explain the reason why many compilers are bootstrapped with C/C++?
2017-12-08T16:54:46Z Shinmera: Inertia, low-level control, bad foresight.
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2017-12-08T16:55:49Z jfe: i'm an amateur on compilers but i've been writing a simple one in lisp and it just seems silly to me to use anything but a high-level language for bootstrapping.
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2017-12-08T16:57:28Z schweers just realized that sbcl has no support for block compilation
2017-12-08T16:58:06Z schweers: is the proper way do deal with this to use large-ish labels blocks around what was previously an entry point function?
2017-12-08T16:59:27Z Shinmera: jfe: C is a systems language, so a primitive compiler for it is often a first target for a new platform. You can then bootstrap a better C compiler with that. If your language runtime is then written against C, you get a new target "for free". Or at least that's the idea behind writing a compiler in C.
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2017-12-08T16:59:37Z Shinmera: Naturally this does not go as smoothly as one would like, so
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2017-12-08T17:01:19Z Bike: Depends on what you mean by "bootstrapping", jfe
2017-12-08T17:02:23Z Bike: The C _runtime_ is pretty much everywhere, and contains a number of useful things, so using it can be convenient. It would be shit to write a compiler in though.
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2017-12-08T17:02:40Z Bike: to write a compiler in C, i mean
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2017-12-08T17:02:58Z beach: Yes, the GCC people are very brave.
2017-12-08T17:03:07Z beach: LLVM too, by the way.
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2017-12-08T17:03:26Z pjb: gcc has a good portion of greenspunning in it…
2017-12-08T17:03:34Z pjb: (being written by a lisper originally…)
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2017-12-08T17:03:42Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-12-08T17:03:50Z Shinmera: beach: LLVM is C++, which is worse/better than C depending on who you ask :)
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2017-12-08T17:04:19Z beach: I can see that, yes. :)
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2017-12-08T17:05:52Z Shinmera: Isn't Clisp also largely written in C?
2017-12-08T17:06:19Z pjb: Shinmera: about 50%
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2017-12-08T17:06:41Z Bike: Is it the compiler that is, or the runtime?
2017-12-08T17:07:01Z pjb: the run time.
2017-12-08T17:07:04Z beach: jfe: I think the analyses of Shinmera and Bike are correct.  But there are many disadvantages with writing a Common Lisp system in C or C++.  There seems to be a widespread idea that a lower-level language has to be used in order to implement a higher-level one.
2017-12-08T17:07:12Z pjb: The clisp compiler itself is written in CL.
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2017-12-08T17:07:14Z Bike: Cos, you know, writing a language runtime in C I can understand, you could debate whether that's a good idea. Writing a compiler in C is just bad.
2017-12-08T17:07:38Z pjb: Bike: depends on whether you have a native compiler or not really.
2017-12-08T17:07:50Z Bike: What?
2017-12-08T17:07:56Z pjb: If you have a native compiler, then just add code generation for syscalls, and you can write your libcl instead of using libc.
2017-12-08T17:08:11Z pjb: (actually if you have a VM you can do that too).
2017-12-08T17:08:26Z Bike: Oh, you mean, for whether you should write a language runtime in C. Yes, sure.
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2017-12-08T17:09:35Z waynecolvin: what is needed to impliment a core lisp? isn't the execution model and debugging features different than C...
2017-12-08T17:09:50Z pjb: waynecolvin: not really.
2017-12-08T17:09:55Z Bike: what is "needed"?
2017-12-08T17:10:13Z Bike: and what is "core"?
2017-12-08T17:10:26Z pjb: A lot of things are implementation dependent and a default implementation doing nothing is often allowed.
2017-12-08T17:10:38Z pjb: notably the debugger, or the repl, or the garbage collector, etc, are optional.
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2017-12-08T17:11:03Z pjb: Even the compiler is optional (you only need to perform minimal compilation, ie. macroexpanding (and special declaration noting).
2017-12-08T17:11:05Z beach: waynecolvin: The people who use C to implement Common Lisp often rely on traditional, but unspecified or undefined, features of C.
2017-12-08T17:11:32Z pjb: And conversely, C implementation can include REPL, debuggers and interpreters. Cf. Cint, EiC, etc.
2017-12-08T17:11:51Z pjb: There are very few (standard) C programmers.
2017-12-08T17:11:52Z waynecolvin: well, if CL has regular arguments, &key arguments etc, should your VM have bloated activation recotds for all functions?
2017-12-08T17:12:06Z pjb: As you wish.
2017-12-08T17:12:30Z Bike: Bloat sounds bad, whatever it is. So i'm going to say it "should not" have bloat.
2017-12-08T17:12:47Z beach: I was just about to say something similar.
2017-12-08T17:13:27Z pjb: About half the functions in CL can be implemented trivially calling the other half (eg. (setf (symbol-function 'delete) (symbol-function 'remove)) ; done )
2017-12-08T17:14:12Z jasom: waynecolvin: C has variadic functions.  keyword arguments are just a special case of variadic functions
2017-12-08T17:15:36Z jasom: waynecolvin: it is not required that lisp use the same ABI as used by C on the system, but doing so isn't automatically bad; even multiple return values of size less than N can be done efficiently for all ABIs that permit N registers to be modified by the caller
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2017-12-08T17:20:31Z shka: good evening
2017-12-08T17:20:43Z beach: Hello shka.
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2017-12-08T17:24:49Z beach: waynecolvin: I have the same question as Bike, what is included in a "core lisp"?
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2017-12-08T17:25:42Z waynecolvin: just a lisp kernel for bootstrapping, i used the wrong term
2017-12-08T17:25:57Z shka: waynecolvin: unfortunately, CL is not formally layered
2017-12-08T17:26:00Z Bike: you don't have to build a system that way.
2017-12-08T17:26:03Z beach: waynecolvin: So you would write the compiler in that subset?
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2017-12-08T17:26:18Z beach: waynecolvin: That turns out to be very painful.
2017-12-08T17:26:18Z shka: eulisp is
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2017-12-08T17:27:31Z waynecolvin: there are lisp/subset-to-c translators but i don't know what subset or how they work lol
2017-12-08T17:27:34Z pjb: If you're really serious about bootstrap, then you start at the bash, and echo bytes to your exe file. Then you will bootstrap from a few binary instructions.
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2017-12-08T17:28:24Z beach: waynecolvin: I had a better idea for SICL, namely to use an existing Common Lisp implementation to compile the code.  That way, I can use the full language to write the compiler.
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2017-12-08T17:29:18Z pjb: You may start implementing car cdr cons if null and lambda (no closure, just functions) and read-char in binary.  This could be feasible.  Then from that you could implement (still in binary) a simple reader, eval and print.  Then you would be able to go on in "lisp".
2017-12-08T17:29:22Z waynecolvin: does it generate bytecode?
2017-12-08T17:29:46Z beach: waynecolvin: My system?  No, when it is done it will generate native code.
2017-12-08T17:29:57Z pjb: beach lives in 2017, not in 1957.
2017-12-08T17:30:10Z beach: Thanks, pjb! :)
2017-12-08T17:31:05Z jackdaniel: waynecolvin: if you look for something minimal, what is not CL to bootstrap from, you may check out ecl_min (something used to build ecl's compiler)
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2017-12-08T17:31:41Z shka: pjb: 2017 sounds like beach should generate JS :P
2017-12-08T17:31:49Z beach: waynecolvin: But that's beside the point here.  The point is that, if you build your system from a subset the way you describe, you either end up writing your compiler in a subset of the language, or you end up with code that is replaced once the system is built, or probably both.
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2017-12-08T17:33:43Z pjb: This is something you do only the first time you implement a new language!
2017-12-08T17:33:47Z waynecolvin: interesting https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/350 hey that's you!
2017-12-08T17:34:17Z Shinmera: compiling to machine code or assembly just means emitting bytes or characters to disk or memory. Anything can do that. There's really no reason to bootstrap from a minimal system unless you have awful constraints like needing to interop with a system that is underspecified.
2017-12-08T17:34:25Z pjb: waynecolvin: have a look at http://www.sheepshellcode.com/blog/2014/12/31/writing-a-linux-executable-using-only-echo/
2017-12-08T17:34:45Z jackdaniel: yup
2017-12-08T17:35:35Z waynecolvin: pjb : that's a classic
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2017-12-08T17:36:44Z pjb: waynecolvin: Start with that, implement your first primitive in binary by hand, until you have your minimal REPL, and then go on writing lisp.
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2017-12-08T17:37:08Z pjb: the eval can be very limited (not CL eval), cf. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
2017-12-08T17:38:02Z jackdaniel: reading LiSP is a very good reading to learn how to write it and discusses important topics like variables etc
2017-12-08T17:38:54Z waynecolvin: i worked out a text pattern to make DOS/CP-M86 assemble binary, but never made a Forth out of it
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2017-12-08T18:20:13Z emaczen`: the link README-PREPARE.txt is broke at commonlisp.net/project/ecl
2017-12-08T18:20:42Z emaczen`: where should I got to read how to setup commonlisp and android?
2017-12-08T18:20:53Z jackdaniel: check out INSTALL file
2017-12-08T18:21:13Z jackdaniel: if you are intersted in eql5-android, you'll find a good tutorial in this project
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2017-12-08T18:35:28Z smurfrobot: does amyone know of recent survey/review papers discussing implicit parallelism and functional programming languages like lisp?
2017-12-08T18:35:59Z pjb: Can you imagine anybody financing such a work today?
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2017-12-08T18:36:39Z emaczen`: I'm getting an Error with ECL: Detected access to an invalid or protected memory address
2017-12-08T18:36:48Z smurfrobot: i am just curious about what has been done in the area.
2017-12-08T18:36:53Z smurfrobot: so nothing recent?
2017-12-08T18:36:59Z Xach: lisp isn't like that.
2017-12-08T18:36:59Z pjb: No, nothing recent.
2017-12-08T18:37:13Z pjb: But google about it, you might find very good papers about it 30 years old.
2017-12-08T18:37:57Z smurfrobot: hmm ok thanks
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2017-12-08T18:48:45Z Ober: so can Iota transform something like libssh to portable cl?
2017-12-08T18:50:19Z phoe: Ober: what's Iota?
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2017-12-08T18:50:45Z phoe: oooh, the compiler from froggey
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2017-12-08T18:51:03Z phoe: Ober: I think it can, since you can go from C through LLVM-IR to CL this way
2017-12-08T18:52:35Z osune: can somebody recommend a hassle "free"  PAS like Heroku for CL ? I want to host a small chat bot for no cost but fun.
2017-12-08T18:52:50Z Ober: aws nano is free
2017-12-08T18:53:24Z froggey: Ober: theoretically. I'm not sure how you'd interact with a translated library though
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2017-12-08T18:54:23Z Ober: froggey: ok. will pass some stuff through it to get a better idea
2017-12-08T18:54:31Z Ober: great stuff btw :P
2017-12-08T18:55:30Z osune: Ober: does it has ready to go sbcl? There seems no maintained base "Buildapp" Template for Heroku.
2017-12-08T18:56:10Z waynecolvin: xlisp is fairly pretty easy to build on android (use make -f makefile.unix) but it isn't standard. ECL is much harder but there are binaries for arm32 you can download
2017-12-08T18:56:20Z Ober: you could host a docker on there you pull from anywhere
2017-12-08T18:56:32Z froggey: thanks, let me know if you run into trouble
2017-12-08T18:56:55Z osune: Ober: never used docker, so I totally missed this option.
2017-12-08T18:57:22Z Ober: `docker search sbcl` gives a ton of hits
2017-12-08T18:57:35Z osune: thanks i give it a look
2017-12-08T18:58:43Z phoe: My indentation just went crazy. My macro suddenly stopped indenting like it should and instead my macro is like https://i.imgtc.com/ni1wA3y.png
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2017-12-08T18:59:37Z osune: phoe: i only know this behavior if my lisp buffer has no repl mode (or was it the other way round?)
2017-12-08T19:01:01Z phoe: (defmacro define-raptor-module (name (&rest protocol-classes) &body clauses) ...) is how it's defined.
2017-12-08T19:02:22Z phoe: hah, restarting spacemacs solved it. mysterious
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2017-12-08T19:11:57Z k-stz: I'm reading "Lisp outside the box" and in a chapter on Memory, the author mentions "The stack is a data structure which, like the GCed heap, was originally invented for
2017-12-08T19:11:57Z k-stz: Lisp back in the 1950s.", I think that's interesting and like to back it up with some sources, but I can't find any, and for the stack I found contradicting ones
2017-12-08T19:12:32Z shka: hmmm
2017-12-08T19:12:45Z shka: that is interesting indeed!
2017-12-08T19:12:56Z k-stz: :-)
2017-12-08T19:13:12Z shka: i really don't know, but it may be even true
2017-12-08T19:13:32Z shka: p_l: help us!
2017-12-08T19:13:35Z k-stz: https://www.nicklevine.org/lisp-book/contents/chgc.pdf page 9 for the quote
2017-12-08T19:13:47Z pjb: k-stz: sources: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp-1-5
2017-12-08T19:14:25Z pjb: Also any early compilation book; they'll discuss at length about displays (storage for the frames of functions).
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2017-12-08T19:15:00Z shka: pjb: oh, wow, thanks!
2017-12-08T19:15:07Z shka: you are awesome
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2017-12-08T19:16:15Z shka: i can't imagine how astonishingly innovative initial lisp was
2017-12-08T19:19:50Z Bike: oh, the stack as in being made out of frames
2017-12-08T19:20:18Z Bike: not having those explains why early fortran didn't have recursion
2017-12-08T19:20:46Z pjb: shka: Actually, it was a second generation system: LISP has been developped only because neither the FORTRAN guys nor the Algo guys accepted to add ternary IF or COND to their languages!  As for the cons cells, they were invented by NSS: http://informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
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2017-12-08T19:23:05Z pjb: Algol
2017-12-08T19:23:33Z Bike: didn't even have enough bytes to finish the name
2017-12-08T19:23:44Z shka: pjb: fascinating
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2017-12-08T19:36:31Z k-stz: pjb: I'll keep it in the back of my head, I might just have occasion to check out your work, but its too much for now
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2017-12-08T19:37:05Z k-stz: thanks, though
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2017-12-08T21:04:06Z python476: ever wanted to see lisp and quantum computers ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9vRcSAneiw
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2017-12-08T21:53:09Z Cthulhux: lovely
2017-12-08T21:53:12Z python476:  https://twitter.com/agumonkey/status/939246475774775301
2017-12-08T21:53:20Z python476: Cthulhux: you watched it ?
2017-12-08T21:53:29Z Cthulhux: not completely yet
2017-12-08T21:53:32Z Cthulhux: TL;DW ;-)
2017-12-08T21:53:55Z python476: Cthulhux: as you wish
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2017-12-08T21:54:22Z python476: I loved the "grad students discover lisp and report about it down the road"
2017-12-08T21:54:47Z python476: anyway back to lol
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2017-12-08T22:19:37Z resttime: I got CCL 1.9 working on flight hardware, I got told if packaged then it might get deployed with the satellite once it goes to space :3
2017-12-08T22:20:53Z resttime: I took a picture of testing sending a hex command to a serial device connected and it works: https://i.imgur.com/KLKm9iN.png
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2017-12-08T22:21:22Z whoman: =) =)
2017-12-08T22:22:56Z resttime: If I can get PPP running by compiling the kernel module then I might be able to get a REPL over SSH
2017-12-08T22:23:36Z resttime: At least on ground for testings
2017-12-08T22:29:11Z pjb: Do you have time to upgrade to 1.10 or 1.11?
2017-12-08T22:29:51Z pjb: Because IIRC, I had some bad bugs in 1.9, and was quite happy to upgrade to 1.10… (but it may have been MacOSX specific bugs, I don't remember).
2017-12-08T22:30:42Z resttime: I wasn't sure how, I read there would be some issues because the hardware uses soft float and that was 'abandoned' 1.10 and onwards would mess up some math functions
2017-12-08T22:31:00Z pjb: oh, in this case, stay with 1.9, indeed.
2017-12-08T22:31:33Z whoman: #1=with all of the (with-all-of-the-... in lisp, is there a commonly accepted practice to jump into rabbit holes ? also what is that procedure =)?
2017-12-08T22:32:04Z resttime: pjb: Yeah reading over release notes again for v1.10 and it says it https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ReleaseNotes/1.10
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2017-12-08T22:32:55Z pjb: whoman: I donm't understand your question.
2017-12-08T22:34:02Z whoman: pjb: i see a lot of lisp code using (with-...) as wrappers to create/destroy of various states or objects. is it normal that main program code is often wrapped in all of that ?
2017-12-08T22:34:06Z resttime: If I can send lisp to space and make it useful I will be satisfied (and then I will try to send my art on the satellite too hehehe)
2017-12-08T22:34:15Z pjb: whoman: yes.
2017-12-08T22:34:25Z pjb: whoman: it's the RAII pattern, basically.
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2017-12-08T22:34:59Z pjb: resttime: of course, if you write papers and make youtube conferences, you'll be in good place next to DeepSpace 1 and its RAX software.
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2017-12-08T22:39:40Z whoman: pjb: okay thanks, i will search =)
2017-12-08T22:40:01Z pjb: whoman: have a look at with-open-file ; macroexpand it.
2017-12-08T22:40:06Z pjb: clhs with-open-file
2017-12-08T22:40:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2017-12-08T22:41:56Z resttime: Hahaha no way, what I do is so little. I am in disbelief that I somehow ended up this kind of stuff. Like I see how stuff happened but at the same time I'm like, "waht? serisouly?"
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2017-12-08T22:48:04Z whoman: pjb: ive dont a bunch of C++ so the idioms make a lot of sense to me. and now i understand.. so its quite alright to have many levels deep of main code running inside of the insides of the insides of ... ? perhaps i am touching in to some stack depth trauma, i am not smart enough to see
2017-12-08T22:51:27Z jasom: whoman: there's no issue whatsoever in doing it
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2017-12-08T22:54:12Z jasom: whoman: because of the possibility of non-local exits, you're going to have a lot of code of the pattern (let ((foo ...)) (unwind-protect (progn ...) (destroy foo)))  the WITH- familiy of macros just allow you to not worry about all the moving parts there.
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2017-12-08T22:55:44Z lisp_guest: hi everyone, could someone tell me what's wrong with this piece of code? http://rextester.com/TDO73450
2017-12-08T22:55:53Z lisp_guest: i've been starting at it for a while but can't seem to find what's wrong
2017-12-08T22:56:04Z lisp_guest: this is almost literally copied from Let Over Lambda's Chapter 3
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2017-12-08T22:56:50Z Bicyclidine: this code is nonconforming. (the code in let over lambda is nonconforming.)
2017-12-08T22:56:52Z jasom: (print (1 2 ,g!three)) <-- looks very wrong
2017-12-08T22:56:54Z Bicyclidine is now known as Bike
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2017-12-08T22:57:32Z lisp_guest: it does seem fishy to me too, but i've been thinking that the book must be right, so it's probably my fault in not understanding backquote correctly or something
2017-12-08T22:57:48Z Bike: no, the book is wrong. you're not the first person to come in here asking about defmacro/g!
2017-12-08T22:58:05Z lisp_guest: hah, really, that makes me happy :-)
2017-12-08T22:58:09Z Bike: when i say "wrong" i mean that it works on several implementations, such as ccl. but it's not conformant code.
2017-12-08T22:58:21Z lisp_guest: i see. what exactly is non-conforming about ti?
2017-12-08T22:58:24Z lisp_guest: it*
2017-12-08T22:58:28Z whoman: jasom: ah cool, that is exactly what i was hoping =) i will read more about non-local exits later on. im still not approaching return/return-from and how that seems a bit magical
2017-12-08T22:58:30Z Shinmera: It's ironic that a book with a tone so preachy and arrogant has bad code in it
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2017-12-08T22:58:45Z whoman: lol that sounds like perfect compliment Shinmera .
2017-12-08T22:58:55Z Shinmera: whoman: ?
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2017-12-08T22:59:06Z Shinmera: It's the opposite of a compliment. I'm making fun of the author.
2017-12-08T22:59:14Z lisp_guest: yeah, reading the introduction made the book seem like ***THE BOOK***
2017-12-08T22:59:19Z Bike: clhs `
2017-12-08T22:59:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2017-12-08T22:59:27Z pjb: whoman: that said, if you have to open several files and it bothers you to have several with-open-file embedded, you can always write a macro to be able to open them all in one go. Just like LET lets you bind several variables at once.
2017-12-08T22:59:29Z jasom: whoman: even absent non-local exits, it's useful to not forget the teardown code
2017-12-08T22:59:38Z Bike: "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition, provided that the side-effect behavior of the substitute form F2 is also consistent with the description given above."
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2017-12-08T23:00:22Z Bike: this means that `whatever can be read as anything. it can incorporate things like vectors and structs that flatten doesn't know about.
2017-12-08T23:00:39Z pjb: jasom: it's probably not a stand alone expression.  Check where it occurs, and see if there's a ` around it.
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2017-12-08T23:01:04Z whoman: Shinmera: why would someone with ego problems have good code? is what i am thinking.
2017-12-08T23:01:43Z jasom: whoman: I think Shinmera was more "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
2017-12-08T23:01:44Z whoman: pjb: ah, that makes sense! thinking ahead of me there, thx =)
2017-12-08T23:01:45Z lisp_guest: Bike: hmm, so would that be the reason why one of the symbols is literally ",g!three" instead of "g!three" as i would expect?
2017-12-08T23:01:52Z Shinmera: Well, I mean, some people have a good justification for saying their stuff is good. Because it is actually good.
2017-12-08T23:02:00Z Bike: lisp_guest: that said, your code is wrong in another way, and i don't know if it's from the book
2017-12-08T23:02:18Z lisp_guest: Bike: probably is, i'm all ears
2017-12-08T23:02:19Z pjb: lisp_guest: The bug is on the second line of: (defmacro/g! test-macro (x y)   `(let ((,g!three 3))      (print (1 2 ,g!three))))
2017-12-08T23:02:30Z Bike: lisp_guest: first you call syms-in, which sort of flattens a form, then you call g!-sym-p on each item
2017-12-08T23:02:31Z pjb: it should be `(let ((g!three 3))
2017-12-08T23:02:48Z Bike: lisp_guest: g!-sym-p takes the symbol-name immediately
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2017-12-08T23:03:01Z Bike: lisp_guest: so, if your form has a 3 in it, your thing tries to do (symbol-name 3), which is wrong
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2017-12-08T23:03:19Z Bike: lisp_guest: it checks for symbolp right below that, but it should be checking above
2017-12-08T23:03:37Z lisp_guest: oh right, thanks
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2017-12-08T23:04:11Z lisp_guest: Bike: and to make the code actually work portably, what would i have to do?
2017-12-08T23:04:14Z Bike: pjb: the intent of this is that g!three will be bound at macroexpansion time to a gensym
2017-12-08T23:04:23Z pjb: Well, the other bug is in (print (1 2 ,g!three)) since 1 is not the name of a function!
2017-12-08T23:04:24Z whoman: Bike: whoa that is intense
2017-12-08T23:04:31Z lisp_guest: pjb: but i want to bind the symbol that's bound to g!three
2017-12-08T23:04:31Z whoman: @ `
2017-12-08T23:04:33Z Bike: oh, that is a bug.
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2017-12-08T23:04:50Z jasom: pjb: that's what I was referring to when I said it looked wrong
2017-12-08T23:04:53Z Bike: lisp_guest: there's no way to do this well (where "well" includes conformingly)
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2017-12-08T23:05:04Z jasom: Bike: I disagre
2017-12-08T23:05:09Z pjb: In that case it would need (print '(1 2 ,,g!three))
2017-12-08T23:05:10Z Bike: oh?
2017-12-08T23:05:12Z jasom: Bike: you can use a portable quasiquote implementation
2017-12-08T23:05:32Z lisp_guest: pjb: would that be a quote or a quasiquote on that list?
2017-12-08T23:05:33Z Bike: backquote is only part of the problem. other code can include code in non-lists.
2017-12-08T23:05:57Z jasom: Bike: oh right, macros can expand to whatevery the implementation desires
2017-12-08T23:06:01Z Bike: (defmacro foo (thing) (struct-read thing)) is ok. rare, but ok, and implementations do this kind of thing sometimes.
2017-12-08T23:06:11Z Bike: (meaning you have a literal struct in the source)
2017-12-08T23:06:40Z pjb: well if g!three is bound to a variable name, then it should be (print (list 1 2 ,g!three))
2017-12-08T23:06:53Z jasom: wait, this happens before the body is macroexpanded, so it shouldn't be an issue there, right? i.e. it's not the generic code-walker problem
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2017-12-08T23:07:14Z Bike: the problem is that it's not macroexpanded.
2017-12-08T23:07:20Z lisp_guest: pjb: what about (print `(1 2 3 ,,g!three))?
2017-12-08T23:07:27Z Bike: what sbcl does is read ,foo as #S(COMMA :form foo) or something.
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2017-12-08T23:07:42Z whoman: no lisp eval bot eh?
2017-12-08T23:07:46Z jasom: Bike: which is why using a portable quasiquote library is okay
2017-12-08T23:07:48Z Bike: so in the unmacroexpanded code, there's a literal struct. and in that struct, there's something that will be a form later
2017-12-08T23:07:57Z pjb: but syms-in is buggy, it should be:  (defun syms-in (&rest body)  (remove-if-not (functiokn symbolp)  (remove-duplicates (flatten body))))
2017-12-08T23:08:02Z Bike: but defmacro/g! can't know to get the symbol out
2017-12-08T23:08:25Z jasom: Bike: the rest of the standard readtable is pretty well defined, right? quasiquotation is the only issue
2017-12-08T23:08:41Z Bike: i already said there are other cases
2017-12-08T23:08:59Z jasom: Bike: do you have an example?
2017-12-08T23:09:25Z Bike: (defstruct foo form) (defmacro unfoo (thing) (foo-form thing)) now have code like (unfoo #.(make-foo :form 'g!three))
2017-12-08T23:09:35Z lisp_guest: pjb: i've fixed g!-sym-p according to what bike said, i.e. moving the check for symbolp before using (symbol-name s)
2017-12-08T23:09:44Z lisp_guest: so it should be ok now, right?
2017-12-08T23:09:45Z pjb: http://sprunge.us/aPTI
2017-12-08T23:09:59Z Bike: it's still fundamentally non conformant, lisp_guest
2017-12-08T23:10:08Z pjb: lisp_guest: it would do too, yes.
2017-12-08T23:10:26Z jasom: Bike: I'm missing how (foo-form thing) can have a *read-time* expansion of a non-list
2017-12-08T23:10:35Z Bike: huh? it's not read time.
2017-12-08T23:10:44Z lisp_guest: Bike: so using what you quoted from clhs, where exactly is the part that's wrong?
2017-12-08T23:11:04Z Bike: the part that's wrong is the assumption that lisp code is entirely contained in list structure
2017-12-08T23:11:23Z jasom: oh, I see what you're saying.  It's not non-conformant, it just requires that the body be a list.
2017-12-08T23:11:33Z lisp_guest: oh i see, so the code walker incorrectly assumes everything will be a list?
2017-12-08T23:11:34Z jasom: (Bacquote still needs to be fixed)
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2017-12-08T23:11:47Z pjb: So yes, the code in "Let Over Lambda" is pedagogical!  You have to find the bugs in it… :-)
2017-12-08T23:11:49Z Bike: okay, yes. but this is a bad requirement to make.
2017-12-08T23:12:33Z Bike: especially since the problem being solved is being too lazy to use with-gensyms explicitly :/
2017-12-08T23:12:52Z jasom: LoL shows it in use with quasi-quote, which is absolutely wrong; the rest becomes more of a style question
2017-12-08T23:13:11Z lisp_guest: indeed :-), but it's a fun exercise
2017-12-08T23:13:33Z lisp_guest: so basically, quasiquotes when read have impl-defined representation?
2017-12-08T23:13:43Z jasom: as long as LoL is approached as a fun exercise it's fine.  It shouldn't be used as a library of useful macros
2017-12-08T23:14:03Z Bike: and that representation can include code outside of list structure, that is the obvious problem, yes.
2017-12-08T23:14:21Z lisp_guest: what does "list structure" mean here?
2017-12-08T23:14:26Z jasom: lisp_guest: yes.  There are similar issues e.g. for pattern matching.  The solution there is to use a known quasiquote implementation (e.g. fare-quasiquote)
2017-12-08T23:14:33Z Bike: flatten only knows about lists.
2017-12-08T23:14:43Z jasom: lisp_guest: where the onlyh aggregate datatype is a list
2017-12-08T23:15:00Z jasom: e.g. (foo (bar)) vs. (foo #(bar))
2017-12-08T23:15:03Z lisp_guest: right, that's what i meant, but the formulation was kinda weird (for me at least)
2017-12-08T23:15:06Z lisp_guest: mhm
2017-12-08T23:15:14Z lisp_guest: s/meant/thought/
2017-12-08T23:15:36Z Bike: it's a subtle issue. experienced lisp programmers can still find this shit confusing.
2017-12-08T23:16:08Z lisp_guest: i've read the clhs page multiple times but didn't connect the fact that flatten only works on lists and that "any other form F2" might contain non-lists
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2017-12-08T23:16:17Z Bike: see? subtle
2017-12-08T23:16:31Z lisp_guest: indeed, but it's also my noobiness i blame :-)
2017-12-08T23:16:34Z Bike: i don't think any implementation did choose to expand into non-lists, before sbcl switched to that uh... a year ago?
2017-12-08T23:16:54Z lisp_guest: i mean, i started seriously with studying lisp only a month or so ago
2017-12-08T23:16:59Z Shinmera: I remember some people getting mad about that
2017-12-08T23:17:10Z lisp_guest: i think that's just what i read today lol
2017-12-08T23:17:16Z lisp_guest: but i couldn't understand what the fuss was about
2017-12-08T23:17:27Z lisp_guest: hah i guess now it makes sense (if that really was the thing i read about)
2017-12-08T23:18:01Z lisp_guest: so walking over code that uses ` is a no-no
2017-12-08T23:18:18Z Bike: walking over code like this in general is not great.
2017-12-08T23:18:34Z Bike: anyway, like i said, you're not the first newbie to come in here asking about this. it's most of what i've heard of LoL, so my opinion isn't great, but on the other hand i haven't heard any OTHER problems with it, so just be cautious i guess
2017-12-08T23:18:58Z lisp_guest: yeah, glad i had someone to ask :-), thanks
2017-12-08T23:18:59Z pjb: lisp_guest: depends on what you mean by "walking over".  The expansions should contain only functions, macros and standard special operators, so a code walker should be able to interpret it correctly.
2017-12-08T23:19:33Z lisp_guest: another question, in the body of defmacro/g!, inside the first quasiquote, when ,@body is spliced into the list
2017-12-08T23:19:36Z pjb: The only problem to code walkers are implementation specific special operators (not covered by a macro expanding to non implementation specific special operators).
2017-12-08T23:19:50Z lisp_guest: in the case where body itself uses a quasiquote (i.e. in my test-macro)
2017-12-08T23:20:03Z lisp_guest: what is expanded first? the quasiquote in body, or the beginning quasiquote
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2017-12-08T23:20:49Z lisp_guest: pjb: understood
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2017-12-08T23:22:34Z lisp_guest: the relevant definition from clhs i see about ,@body is "[,@form] is interpreted as form"
2017-12-08T23:22:56Z lisp_guest: "form" here is my "body", but "body" itself is a list of something that uses quasiquote
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2017-12-08T23:42:23Z jasom: lisp_guest: quasiquote is expanded by the reader, and are expanded as soon as it is read
2017-12-08T23:43:28Z jasom: lisp_guest: if you have a quasiquote inside a quasiquote, recurse down to the inner quasiquote
2017-12-08T23:43:40Z jasom: ``(foo ,bar)) the outter quasiquote never sees the comma
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2017-12-08T23:44:16Z lisp_guest: jasom: right, so in this example http://rextester.com/TDO73450 (ignore the mentioned bugs), when ,@body is used to splice another list, i.e. the list "body"
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2017-12-08T23:44:44Z lisp_guest: this list "body" was constructed by capturing the body of "test-macro" which itself had a quasiquote
2017-12-08T23:45:08Z jasom: lisp_guest: that's the wrong way to think about it
2017-12-08T23:45:11Z lisp_guest: was this quasiquote already expanded then, before being bound to "body"?
2017-12-08T23:45:17Z jasom: lisp_guest: there are no nested quasiquotes there.
2017-12-08T23:45:31Z lisp_guest: yeah, i'm trying to wrap my head around it
2017-12-08T23:45:34Z jasom: lisp_guest: yes quasiquote is expanded at *read* time, long before macros ever get into it
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2017-12-08T23:46:01Z jasom: (read-from-string "`(foo , bar)")
2017-12-08T23:46:49Z lisp_guest: what am i supposed to see?
2017-12-08T23:46:52Z jasom: of course sbcl doesn't help you out for making it obvious
2017-12-08T23:47:46Z lisp_guest: right, so i'd have to use some other implementation that doesn't use these internal representations for quasiquote
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2017-12-08T23:48:13Z lisp_guest: i guess that's part of why it was so confusing
2017-12-08T23:48:21Z jasom: I should say, it is expanded to some unknown FORM that when evaluated will generate something equivalent to what the hyperspec says
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2017-12-08T23:48:37Z lisp_guest: being aware that the internal representation of quasiquote is impl-specific makes it clearer now a bit
2017-12-08T23:49:45Z lisp_guest: hm, clips also doesn't help, i get the same output as with sbcl
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2017-12-08T23:50:40Z jasom: lisp_guest: the spec even mentions that implementations may do this for making printing prettier
2017-12-08T23:50:42Z lisp_guest: i guess i'll just have to use my imagination
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2017-12-08T23:51:06Z jasom: (car (read-from-string "`(foo, bar)")) may help
2017-12-08T23:51:25Z lisp_guest: jasom: ya, i've read that paragraph multiple times but couldn't think of an example where it might affect me
2017-12-08T23:51:30Z lisp_guest: now it's pretty obvious i guess
2017-12-08T23:51:32Z lisp_guest: let me try that
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2017-12-08T23:52:30Z lisp_guest: ah, SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE
2017-12-08T23:52:37Z lisp_guest: and SYSTEM:QUASIQUOTE in clisp
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2017-12-08T23:52:58Z jasom: (describe (cadadr (read-from-string "`(foo, bar)"))) may help
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2017-12-08T23:53:54Z lisp_guest: is there a reason your comma comes directly after "foo"?
2017-12-08T23:53:58Z lisp_guest: i.e. is that intentional?
2017-12-08T23:55:40Z jasom: lisp_guest: typo
2017-12-08T23:55:44Z jasom: lisp_guest: makes no difference though
2017-12-08T23:56:04Z jasom: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/fare-quasiquote <-- readme here also talks a lot about quasiquotation
2017-12-08T23:56:11Z lisp_guest: i am just reading that
2017-12-08T23:56:14Z lisp_guest: thanks :-)
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2017-12-09T00:00:24Z Bike: "n conformance with the CLHS, fare-quasiquote expands its patterns at read-time ... If you enable feature #+quasiquote-at-macro-expansion-time, fare-quasiquote will expands its patterns at macro-expansion time, using the same convention as Scheme, with symbols quasiquote, unquote, unquote-splicing and unquote-nsplicing" huh?
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2017-12-09T03:06:44Z vtomole: Was this already discussed here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9vRcSAneiw
2017-12-09T03:07:32Z |3b|: mentioned a few times, not sure there was much discussion
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2017-12-09T03:18:41Z vtomole: Looks like my post was the third time. Should have checked logs.
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2017-12-09T03:31:44Z aeth: What video is that? There's no title bot in here and I don't trust YouTube links. (Although it probably is safe or else |3b| would have commented.)
2017-12-09T03:32:03Z aeth: Oh, it's this one, don't even need to click, it matches the URL on the front of HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15880172
2017-12-09T03:32:08Z aeth: "Lisp at the Frontier of Computation"
2017-12-09T03:34:20Z vtomole: It's interesting how they "made" their interns work on a lisp codebase.
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2017-12-09T03:39:37Z vtomole: From around 43 minutes in that video he talks about what the interns thought of Lisp.
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2017-12-09T06:44:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-09T06:48:49Z SaganMan: Good Morning beach
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2017-12-09T06:52:13Z oleo: morning
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2017-12-09T06:52:20Z Hiver: Hey
2017-12-09T06:52:41Z oleo: omg it snowed!
2017-12-09T06:52:44Z oleo: ewwww
2017-12-09T06:52:46Z Hiver: lol
2017-12-09T06:52:52Z Hiver: I have a question
2017-12-09T06:53:36Z oleo: quanta costa question ?
2017-12-09T06:53:38Z oleo: lol
2017-12-09T06:53:45Z Zhivago: A valuable asset.
2017-12-09T06:53:52Z Hiver: I found this (https://gist.github.com/endofinnsmouth/009a7a3a91b180371fea20cc983898ed) online, and it said it was an "nlp". What is that, and can you explain this program?
2017-12-09T06:54:26Z oleo: natural language processing ?
2017-12-09T06:54:30Z Hiver: Ok.
2017-12-09T06:54:44Z Hiver: So then, what is that program?
2017-12-09T06:54:51Z Hiver: Like, how does it work lol
2017-12-09T06:54:55Z jackdaniel: it doesn't look like a well-written program (indentation is awful for starter)
2017-12-09T06:55:01Z Hiver: ok
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2017-12-09T06:55:41Z Hiver: what else is bad? also where can i find a better program?
2017-12-09T06:55:45Z jackdaniel: it's not clear what it does, but I don't think it implements "NLP"
2017-12-09T06:55:58Z jackdaniel: regarding natural language processing I've encountered interested library lately
2017-12-09T06:56:02Z jackdaniel: let me check in my bookmarks
2017-12-09T06:56:06Z Hiver: okey
2017-12-09T06:56:31Z jackdaniel: this: https://github.com/ddmcdonald/sparser/
2017-12-09T06:56:37Z Hiver: just so i know what not to do though. what is bad about that code? I dont wanna fuck up. ooooooooooh and thanks
2017-12-09T06:56:40Z jackdaniel: it has articles describing how it works in Documentation
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2017-12-09T06:57:23Z jackdaniel: Hiver: first thing: indentation. it made me stop reading it ;)
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2017-12-09T06:57:34Z jackdaniel: another one: lack of abstraction, everything is put as a list
2017-12-09T06:57:58Z Hiver: ok. so, use abstraction.
2017-12-09T06:58:03Z Hiver: Anything else?
2017-12-09T06:58:22Z jackdaniel: line breaks are bad, it is not clear what functions do (not docstrings or comments)
2017-12-09T06:58:45Z jackdaniel: it is simply bad, I'm not interested in reading it further
2017-12-09T06:59:12Z Zhivago: Almost as bad a sign as not being able to spell "don't".
2017-12-09T06:59:34Z Zhivago: Don't trust subliterate programmers -- programming is a literary exercise.
2017-12-09T07:00:03Z Hiver: Okey. so, docs, abstraction, and indent. thats good form for lisp.
2017-12-09T07:01:55Z Hiver: also, what line did they sat "dont" I cant find in cntrl-f. lol
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2017-12-09T07:03:27Z Zhivago: That's just general advice -- but it also applies regarding people who can't spell "can't".
2017-12-09T07:03:36Z Hiver: oh lol
2017-12-09T07:03:54Z beach: Hiver: It uses SETQ to define special variable, but that is undefined behavior.  And it does not use earmuffs on special variables, which is bad style.
2017-12-09T07:04:53Z beach: It uses IF when it ought to use WHEN.
2017-12-09T07:05:13Z beach: It has mysterious blank lines.
2017-12-09T07:05:21Z Hiver: ok
2017-12-09T07:05:45Z beach: It uses the wrong number of semicolons for comments.
2017-12-09T07:06:47Z Zhivago: It is obviously written by the wrong sort of person.
2017-12-09T07:06:58Z Hiver: so, basically style. lol
2017-12-09T07:07:45Z beach: Hiver: style is what programming is about.
2017-12-09T07:08:03Z Hiver: yeah, it's really important
2017-12-09T07:08:08Z jackdaniel: no, style is just a strong indicator it is not worth reading. program doesn't look useful either
2017-12-09T07:08:36Z Hiver: ok. it has not practical use
2017-12-09T07:08:37Z jackdaniel: so style is the initial condition for anyone to bother reading what it does
2017-12-09T07:08:54Z jackdaniel: did you write this snippet?
2017-12-09T07:08:59Z Hiver: no.
2017-12-09T07:09:02Z Hiver: a friend did
2017-12-09T07:09:45Z beach: That friend should come here, listen to advice, and then rewrite the code.
2017-12-09T07:10:04Z Hiver: i'm sending it to him in a DM
2017-12-09T07:10:39Z Zhivago: Remember why Nigerian scammers intentionally write terrible emails.
2017-12-09T07:10:47Z Hiver: yeah
2017-12-09T07:10:52Z Hiver: wait no
2017-12-09T07:11:00Z Hiver: srry my mind was elsewhere
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2017-12-09T07:12:05Z Zhivago: They're trying to get intelligent people to ignore them so that they can focus on the stupid ones.
2017-12-09T07:12:26Z Hiver: ahhhhh. like an echo chamber?
2017-12-09T07:13:41Z Zhivago: No. They just get the intelligent people to decide that the message is obviously a scam so that they then don't respond, which would waste the scammers' time.
2017-12-09T07:15:01Z Hiver: ooooh. ok. so, he wont come here because he is afraid of the advice? or is the program a scam?
2017-12-09T07:15:09Z Zhivago: The same process applies to software. Intelligent people avoid using software that looks like it was written by a twelve-year old who had been dropped frequently on its head as a child.
2017-12-09T07:15:35Z Hiver: lol yeah.
2017-12-09T07:15:54Z jackdaniel: interesting, didn't know about that (badly written email thing)
2017-12-09T07:16:02Z Zhivago: Which is generally a good idea, because software that looks like that probably hasn't been written carefully or well thought out, and the cost of maintaining it is high.
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2017-12-09T07:17:00Z Hiver: ok. another question! why does it not look well thought out?
2017-12-09T07:17:24Z Zhivago: One problem is that to beginners, they are so bad at reading code that they can't distinguish between good code and bad code.
2017-12-09T07:17:24Z Zhivago: Which means that they also don't see any value in writing good code.
2017-12-09T07:18:01Z Hiver: ok
2017-12-09T07:18:10Z Hiver: I see.
2017-12-09T07:18:25Z vtomole: Why is is using setq?
2017-12-09T07:18:28Z vtomole: *he
2017-12-09T07:19:09Z Zhivago: Either due to malevolence or incompetence.
2017-12-09T07:19:12Z beach: vtomole: Because he or she has not bothered to learn the language.
2017-12-09T07:19:37Z jackdaniel: or he/she is during the process of learning it
2017-12-09T07:20:08Z jackdaniel: Hiver: recommend your friend this excellent introduction
2017-12-09T07:20:14Z jackdaniel: minion: tell Hiver about pcl
2017-12-09T07:20:17Z minion: Hiver: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-12-09T07:20:33Z jackdaniel: I'm sure he will benefit from reading it greatly
2017-12-09T07:21:13Z Hiver: sent it to him
2017-12-09T07:22:41Z Hiver: Also to respond to beach. He used to do a bit of Java (idk if it is true). Recently switched to LisP
2017-12-09T07:23:00Z beach: Hiver: Your friend should also learn to use an editor that can handle Common Lisp code so as to obtain correct indentation.
2017-12-09T07:23:20Z stylewarning: “LisP”
2017-12-09T07:23:32Z beach: stylewarning: Nice talk!
2017-12-09T07:24:04Z Hiver: Ok. Beach. What editor?
2017-12-09T07:24:16Z jackdaniel: Hiver: rush to read PCL, it has all information he needs
2017-12-09T07:24:21Z jackdaniel: editor advice included
2017-12-09T07:24:22Z beach: Hiver: Most people here use Emacs and SLIME.
2017-12-09T07:24:50Z Hiver: ok
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2017-12-09T07:27:19Z turkja: lol, why so harsh? it for sure looks like someone's first lisp program.. but it's a start anyways :)
2017-12-09T07:27:57Z jackdaniel tried to be gentle :)
2017-12-09T07:28:05Z jackdaniel:  /but honest/
2017-12-09T07:28:18Z Hiver: honest it better
2017-12-09T07:30:15Z Hiver: Hey, i gtg. Thanks for this, my friend hasn't responded, but we can be hopeful.
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2017-12-09T07:31:23Z jackdaniel: good luck and bye
2017-12-09T07:31:31Z Hiver: thanks. you tooo
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2017-12-09T07:34:21Z stylewarning: beach: Thanks!!
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2017-12-09T07:38:25Z vtomole: One of these days I'm going to have enough money to go to that Bay Area Lisp meet up and ELS.
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2017-12-09T07:39:31Z beach: Airline tickets are pretty cheap these days.
2017-12-09T07:39:48Z beach: Especially if you accept the standard of low-cost airlines.
2017-12-09T07:41:15Z jackdaniel: lovely, 5 different lisp implementations in one emacs session :-)
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2017-12-09T07:42:19Z vtomole: beach: I'm a student. $300 kills me.
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2017-12-09T07:43:43Z jackdaniel hints, that more than $300 is possible to earn on McCLIM bounties ;)
2017-12-09T07:43:54Z vtomole: I'm graduating next year. So I should be able to make it to the 2019 one.
2017-12-09T07:43:55Z jackdaniel: and I will probably add more bounties this weekend
2017-12-09T07:44:08Z vtomole: jackdaniel: Ha!
2017-12-09T07:44:51Z jackdaniel: then you'll be able to say proudly at ELS: I'm here, because I've solved bunch of McCLIM problems
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2017-12-09T07:52:00Z SaganMan: these days people don't use setq, they use defparameter
2017-12-09T07:52:18Z SaganMan: if it's a constant defvar
2017-12-09T07:52:52Z Zhivago: Or, rather, if reloading should reinitialize the value.
2017-12-09T07:52:54Z SaganMan: it's neat that way than to use defvar and setq to variables
2017-12-09T07:53:40Z SaganMan: yeah
2017-12-09T07:54:12Z pjb: defvar and defparameter are top-level forms, you would never use them to set a variable. Use setf for that!
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2017-12-09T07:56:17Z SaganMan: yeah
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2017-12-09T07:58:17Z Shinmera: vtomole: You won't get the student discount anymore if you graduate.
2017-12-09T07:59:56Z vtomole: How much is the discount?
2017-12-09T08:00:48Z jackdaniel: it is different every year
2017-12-09T08:01:21Z Shinmera: It's usually up to 100€
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2017-12-09T10:59:24Z lisp_guest: what is a good lisp pastebin that you guys usually use?
2017-12-09T10:59:44Z Shinmera: Idunno about good, but I use my own: http://plaster.tymoon.eu
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2017-12-09T11:00:09Z lisp_guest: oh neat
2017-12-09T11:01:08Z lisp_guest: i have a question about style. in this function (from yesterday) https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/685#685
2017-12-09T11:01:27Z lisp_guest: this when bothers me a bit, because the usual way i would implement this is to have a check for the opposite and then just return early before proceeding
2017-12-09T11:01:48Z lisp_guest: i.e. if it's not a symbol, return nil immediately
2017-12-09T11:01:54Z Shinmera: That's the same
2017-12-09T11:01:55Z lisp_guest: then, unconditionally continue doing whatever
2017-12-09T11:02:16Z lisp_guest: yes, they're functionally equivalent, but what style is preferred in lisp?
2017-12-09T11:02:16Z Shinmera: WHEN evaluates to NIL if its condition fails
2017-12-09T11:02:23Z lisp_guest: ya, i'm aware of that
2017-12-09T11:02:28Z Shinmera: explicit RETURN-FROM is very rare.
2017-12-09T11:02:32Z lisp_guest: i see
2017-12-09T11:02:48Z lisp_guest: because i don't like when stuff gets too indented
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2017-12-09T11:03:36Z lisp_guest: or rather i think of it as setting up invariants for the code that follows
2017-12-09T11:03:44Z lisp_guest: so if something doesn't hold, just get out immediately
2017-12-09T11:04:02Z Shinmera: Invariants should be set up via checks that error.
2017-12-09T11:04:04Z lisp_guest: Shinmera: so then this would be the preferred style in lisp?
2017-12-09T11:04:32Z Shinmera: And you can do that with check-type, for instance.
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2017-12-09T11:05:44Z Shinmera: I can't speak for everyone, but I like concise code.
2017-12-09T11:06:09Z Shinmera: So WHEN is definitely preferred towards (unless .. (return-from my-fun))
2017-12-09T11:06:42Z jackdaniel: I'm working on semaphores for BT (will try to merge it upstream if possible) – this is generic implementation (using cv): https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/686#686 -- fallback for implementations which doesn't have semaphores
2017-12-09T11:07:03Z jackdaniel: I'd appreciate comment on this (for instance if I got it right) if someone have a slice of time
2017-12-09T11:07:09Z Shinmera: Especially since the return-from increases mental overhead by requiring the explicit function name, having an inverted check, and introducing an explicit control flow transfer.
2017-12-09T11:07:57Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'd much prefer a struct to a list.
2017-12-09T11:08:00Z lisp_guest: Shinmera: hmm ok, thanks
2017-12-09T11:08:26Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: In fact, having a list is awful because it means you don't get a distinct type for the semaphore.
2017-12-09T11:08:37Z jackdaniel: me too, but I don't want to introduce structs for default implementation
2017-12-09T11:08:41Z Shinmera: Why not
2017-12-09T11:09:04Z jackdaniel: because I would have to check somehow, if implementation has semaphores implemented "its way"
2017-12-09T11:09:13Z jackdaniel: and conditionally disable it
2017-12-09T11:09:21Z Shinmera: Huh?
2017-12-09T11:10:05Z Shinmera: The implementation potentially providing its own semaphore object doesn't really change anything.
2017-12-09T11:10:05Z jackdaniel: there is bt:timeout type defined without such conditionalization, but SBCL with-timeout signals different condition – this is a source of many programmer errors
2017-12-09T11:10:15Z loke: jackdaniel: You forgot to with a WITH-LOCK-HELD in the call to SEMAPHORE-COUNT
2017-12-09T11:10:31Z jackdaniel: I want to avoid such situation for semaphores, that programmer does check-type on bt:sempahore
2017-12-09T11:10:32Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Make the struct named %foo and provide a deftype that aliases to the concrete type on each impl
2017-12-09T11:10:34Z jackdaniel: loke: thanks
2017-12-09T11:11:24Z loke: Other than that, it looks fine to me.
2017-12-09T11:11:25Z Shinmera: I really don't think that any amount of implementation overhead is going to justify using a list
2017-12-09T11:11:45Z loke: Why not use a struct for this instead of alist?
2017-12-09T11:11:51Z Shinmera: I already just suggested that
2017-12-09T11:11:54Z loke: "os a list"
2017-12-09T11:11:54Z jackdaniel: it is plist
2017-12-09T11:12:05Z loke: I mean it say "instead of a list"
2017-12-09T11:12:09Z jackdaniel: I'll think about it, thanks
2017-12-09T11:12:14Z jackdaniel: ah
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2017-12-09T11:12:43Z jackdaniel: I've explained initial motivation for such avoidance, I may reconsider (or change upon maintainer request)
2017-12-09T11:13:55Z loke: jackdaniel: if so, you could make it three-elemtn array instead? That'll make lookups fast.
2017-12-09T11:14:21Z Shinmera: You're threading with a lock
2017-12-09T11:14:26Z Shinmera: plist lookup won't really matter in comparison
2017-12-09T11:14:46Z Shinmera: and that's just even worse because then the fields are implicit in the array
2017-12-09T11:15:23Z loke: Shinmera: I think you're underestimating the speed of locks.
2017-12-09T11:15:57Z Shinmera: And I think you're overestimating the slowness of a plist lookup.
2017-12-09T11:16:04Z loke: Shinmera: likely.
2017-12-09T11:16:24Z loke: Shinmera: I think both are very fast. That said, array lookups are even faster.
2017-12-09T11:16:33Z Shinmera: Either way, a struct is going to be fast and typed
2017-12-09T11:16:37Z Shinmera: so really, the only right choice.
2017-12-09T11:16:49Z loke: Shinmera: True. But I think JD's argument is that he doesn't want it to be typed.
2017-12-09T11:16:59Z Shinmera: I don't think that's his argument at all
2017-12-09T11:17:00Z loke: I don't agree with that argument, but I understand it.
2017-12-09T11:17:29Z Shinmera: His argument is that he would need to conditionalise the existence of the struct or type for each implementation if they provide their own native semaphore object type.
2017-12-09T11:17:40Z loke: Isn't his point that you shouldn't be able to do CHECK-TYPE (or whatever) on the object, becasue in specialised implementations the type of the object can be unpredictable?
2017-12-09T11:18:26Z Zhivago: It's rather then class can differ -- but CL has that leak back into the type for array, which sucks.
2017-12-09T11:18:31Z Shinmera: No, I'm pretty sure he'd like it if you can check-type
2017-12-09T11:18:49Z Shinmera: Anyway
2017-12-09T11:18:59Z jackdaniel: maybe I put it wrong, but loke get it right
2017-12-09T11:19:05Z jackdaniel: s/get/got/
2017-12-09T11:19:06Z loke: That said, I'd like to see a custom type that is defined to be whatever the underlying impleemntation uses. That way I cal always use (CHECK-TYPE BT:SEMAPHORE) and it'll word regardless of implemnetation. Then a struct would be fine.
2017-12-09T11:19:18Z Shinmera: the solution is (defstruct %semaphore ..) (deftype semaphore #+sbcl 'sb-whatnot:whatever #-... '%semaphore)
2017-12-09T11:19:36Z Shinmera: As I already suggested ages ago
2017-12-09T11:19:37Z loke: Shinmera: Right, that was what I trued to say.
2017-12-09T11:20:04Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: and where should I put this deftype, if implementation doesn't have native semaphore on %semaphore?
2017-12-09T11:20:25Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: BT has a file for each implementation, yeah?
2017-12-09T11:20:33Z jackdaniel: because that's not how source is arranged (that you spawn a lot of #+foo)
2017-12-09T11:20:37Z Shinmera: So you could just put that deftype into each specific file.
2017-12-09T11:21:02Z Shinmera: with only the correct expansion for that particular impl
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2017-12-09T11:29:55Z beach: lisp_guest: It is considered bad style to use WHEN in a situation where the value matters.  It is better to use an IF and return NIL in the "else" branch.
2017-12-09T11:30:30Z lisp_guest: beach: so making explicit the fact that i want "nil" to be returned if sym is not a symbol?
2017-12-09T11:30:40Z Shinmera: I don't consider it bad style, but that's just me.
2017-12-09T11:31:02Z beach: lisp_guest: In this case, you can also remove the WHEN entirely.
2017-12-09T11:31:14Z beach: Shinmera: I am sorry to hear that.
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2017-12-09T11:31:30Z Shinmera: Style is opinionated after all.
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2017-12-09T11:31:43Z lisp_guest: beach: why?
2017-12-09T11:31:43Z beach: Shinmera: There are general rules though.
2017-12-09T11:31:54Z beach: lisp_guest: Yes, but in this case, you can just do the (let ... (and ...)).
2017-12-09T11:32:35Z beach: lisp_guest: Because your function returns a Boolean value, and AND does as well.
2017-12-09T11:33:09Z lisp_guest: beach: yes, but the WHEN is there to guard against non-symbols
2017-12-09T11:33:43Z beach: Oh, sorry, the symbol-name.  Yes.  But then this is better:
2017-12-09T11:34:22Z beach: (and (symbolp sym) (let ((name (symbol-name sym))) (and (> (length ...)))))
2017-12-09T11:34:49Z lisp_guest: oh, didn't think of that
2017-12-09T11:36:42Z Shinmera: beach: Sure. In this case one could argue that returning NIL on failure is an explicit property of WHEN so the return value of NIL is already explicit too.
2017-12-09T11:36:58Z Shinmera: How explicit you want your code to be is often a matter of preference.
2017-12-09T11:37:17Z beach: Shinmera: There are general rules though.
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2017-12-09T11:42:04Z basket: Good morning!
2017-12-09T11:46:57Z beach: Hello basket.
2017-12-09T11:47:05Z phoe: Hey everyone
2017-12-09T11:47:12Z beach: Hello phoe.
2017-12-09T11:47:14Z basket: Hi phoe
2017-12-09T11:48:03Z phoe: Hey hi.
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2017-12-09T12:07:52Z oleo: sup sup
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2017-12-09T12:20:41Z basket: I started trying to write an Emacs mode knowing vaguely about EIEIO as a CLOS-like but discovered that it's single-dispatch and doesn't support around methods, very disappointing
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2017-12-09T12:24:30Z scymtym_: basket: i think this is no longer true in recent emacs versions. the object system is much closer to CLOS now
2017-12-09T12:25:36Z basket: If so, the documentation needs updated
2017-12-09T12:29:05Z scymtym_: the ones i looked at are cl-def{generic,method}
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2017-12-09T12:46:33Z pjb: lisp_guest: I use sprunge which is barebone and cool: #!/bin/sh ␤ exec curl --silent -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us ␤ # cf. https://clbin.com/ ␤
2017-12-09T12:46:33Z pjb:  
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2017-12-09T14:44:34Z drmeister: Have folks seen this:  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15880172
2017-12-09T14:45:55Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-09T14:46:27Z beach: The link to the video was posted here recently.
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2017-12-09T14:49:25Z beach: drmeister: He mentions simulations of molecules (as I recall) as one great application for quantum computing.
2017-12-09T14:49:35Z drmeister: Yes
2017-12-09T14:49:52Z drmeister: One quantum system can simulate another.
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2017-12-09T14:51:07Z drmeister: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_simulator
2017-12-09T14:51:24Z drmeister: That's why I'm excited about it.   I hope they are on the right track.
2017-12-09T14:51:47Z beach: drmeister: You can discuss it with stylewarning at ELS. :)
2017-12-09T14:52:03Z drmeister: stylewarning?
2017-12-09T14:52:28Z beach: That's his IRC nick.
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2017-12-09T15:29:12Z drmeister: Thank you
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2017-12-09T15:29:36Z Devon: Anyone know how to (read-byte *standard-input*) and (write-byte * *standard-output*) portably?
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2017-12-09T15:40:50Z beach: Devon: As far as I know, those are character streams, so you have to write characters to them.
2017-12-09T15:40:55Z phoe: Devon: *STANDARD-INPUT* and *STANDARD-OUTPUT* are character streams
2017-12-09T15:41:12Z phoe: and they may accept multibyte characters in case someone's using UTF-8 for example
2017-12-09T15:41:28Z pjb: Devon: this is not possible in a conforming way.
2017-12-09T15:41:39Z phoe: as in, they are not byte streams.
2017-12-09T15:41:46Z beach: Devon: You can of course bind those variables to some binary streams.
2017-12-09T15:42:00Z pjb: Devon: implementation dependent, you may be able to use flexi-stream to change the kind of stream, or you may be able to create binary streams on the same file descriptors.
2017-12-09T15:42:48Z pjb: Devon: for command line tools, just pass paths to the binary files as command line arguments, and open them.
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2017-12-09T15:43:36Z pjb: You can then bind them to *standard-input* and *standard-output*, but I would advise against it (just use parameter named input and output).  Keep *standard-input* and *standard-output* for textual I/O, you may want to issue messages, etc.
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2017-12-09T15:49:38Z Devon: Yeah, everything said so far I already know, none of it answers the question.
2017-12-09T15:49:49Z pjb: Devon: there's also another consideration: this is a big no-no to touch *terminal-io* and the object bound to it. (it's the stream used to report errors and by the debugger by default).  But by default *standard-input* and *standard-output* may be synonym-streams to *terminal-io*; so mutating the streams bound to those variables would mutate the stream bound to *terminal-io* and this would break the implementation!
2017-12-09T15:50:25Z pjb: So, rebinding *standard-input* and *standard-output* is allowed, but not mutating (eg. changing the element-type) of those streams.
2017-12-09T15:50:45Z pjb: Devon: the answer to your question is NO. Do not do that!
2017-12-09T15:51:00Z pjb: If you want, more precisely, it's Mu!
2017-12-09T15:51:34Z pjb: 無
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2017-12-09T15:52:12Z Devon: Since it cannot be done portably, any implementation-specific solution could carefully mutate all the standard streams without breaking anything.
2017-12-09T15:52:25Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)
2017-12-09T15:53:01Z pjb: First try flexi-stream, as I answered above. (Despite your erroneous affirmation that no solution was proposed).
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2017-12-09T15:57:05Z scymtym_: jackdaniel: in https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/686#686 in WAIT-ON-SEMAPHORE: when going back to sleep via CONDITION-WAIT, timeout should be decreased by already elapsed time
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2017-12-09T16:00:22Z jackdaniel: scymtym_: good point, thanks. current version is here: github.com/dkochmanski/bordeaux-threads/ , I will incorporate your remark later today
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2017-12-09T16:01:23Z jackdaniel: I've switched to internal-real-time, generic implementation had small problems when tested on CCL with timeouts like 0.1
2017-12-09T16:01:23Z scymtym_: jackdaniel: sure. i envy you for not having to take deadlines into account :)
2017-12-09T16:01:56Z jackdaniel: heh, you still try to fix timeout+deadline combo?
2017-12-09T16:02:38Z scymtym_: i think i have it figured out. needs a lot of polishing and testing, though
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2017-12-09T16:08:54Z jackdaniel: alright, added fix: https://github.com/dkochmanski/bordeaux-threads/blob/master/src/default-implementations.lisp#L310
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2017-12-09T18:22:59Z earl-ducaine: Devon: It depends a bit on what you're trying to do.  But one approach would be to create custom streams along the lines of string output stream and string input string, i.e. create a byte stream that converts and writes  characters to the output stream.
2017-12-09T18:23:14Z earl-ducaine: Then rename that stream to *be* the output stream.
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2017-12-09T18:28:48Z Devon: earl-ducaine: (ccl::make-fd-stream 0 :character-p t :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) doc claims "bivalent" but (read-byte *) complains (typep * '(and input-stream ccl::binary-stream)) => nil
2017-12-09T18:31:38Z beach: earl-ducaine: In that blog of yours, indentation is screwed up.
2017-12-09T18:32:16Z Devon: earl-ducaine: I'll see how it's done in flexi-streams
2017-12-09T18:34:24Z beach: earl-ducaine: I mean indentation in the code examples.
2017-12-09T18:34:56Z beach: earl-ducaine: And in one example, you have two consecutive lines with (let (rest) on them.
2017-12-09T18:36:15Z beach: earl-ducaine: Plus, when you write (let (result) ...) the reader expects RESULT to be assigned to before being used.  If you want to initialize it to the empty list, it is best to write (let ((result '())) ...)
2017-12-09T18:36:16Z earl-ducaine: Beach: thanks!  Yeah. Bike pointed that out.
2017-12-09T18:36:28Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-12-09T18:36:28Z earl-ducaine: Problems of trying to blog with emacs.  :)
2017-12-09T18:36:52Z beach: I see.
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2017-12-09T18:37:09Z Devon: No apropos matches for ‘blog’
2017-12-09T18:38:18Z earl-ducaine: Devon: I think that approach would require you to create your own stream subclass.  So, the flexi stream library would be a good place to see how that's down.
2017-12-09T18:38:22Z parjanya: earl-ducaine: where is your blog?
2017-12-09T18:38:36Z beach: parjanya: https://earlducaine.wordpress.com/
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2017-12-09T18:46:16Z Devon: earl-ducaine: https://earlducaine.wordpress.com ... do to bit rot/due to bit rot
2017-12-09T18:47:42Z parjanya: beach: thanks!
2017-12-09T18:48:22Z parjanya: earl-ducaine: any reason why you have those line breaks inside the paragraphs?
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2017-12-09T19:06:22Z earl-ducaine: parajanya: haha see my comment to beach about using Emacs for blogging.    :)
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2017-12-09T19:15:56Z parjanya: earl-ducaine: how are you doing it?
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2017-12-09T19:21:17Z Devon: (defun blog ...) and M-x blog RET ?
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2017-12-09T19:22:50Z Devon: Say, anyone have fixups for bad emacs lisp-mode indentation, e.g.,
2017-12-09T19:22:50Z Devon: (put 'with-open-stream 'lisp-indent-function 1)
2017-12-09T19:22:50Z Devon: (put 'with-open-file 'lisp-indent-function 1)
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2017-12-09T19:27:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Devon: I think 90% of those problems are solved by using slime and making sure that emacs is configured to indent lisp in cl-style
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2017-12-09T19:37:25Z Devon: Not in the two cases I mentioned.
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2017-12-09T19:39:01Z Devon: I'm sure Emacs+slime lisp-mode botches many obscure cases I haven't noticed yet.
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2017-12-09T19:42:07Z Devon: (mapcar #'fdefinition-lambda-list (apropos-list "with-" "CL")) ; oops, no obvious way to extract the lambda-list
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2017-12-09T19:47:42Z pjb: Devon: (mapcar 'swank/backend:arglist (apropos-list "WITH-" "CL"))
2017-12-09T19:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I use those all the time and never noticed any indentation issues
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2017-12-09T19:53:40Z Devon: pjb: Thanks!  Nicer indentation henceforth.
2017-12-09T19:55:08Z Devon: fiddlerwoaroof: You never noticed the first body form is out of line with the rest?
2017-12-09T19:56:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not for me
2017-12-09T19:59:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Devon: https://i.imgur.com/7f6ULNh.png
2017-12-09T19:59:18Z pjb: this indentation is perfectly correct.
2017-12-09T19:59:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: ... that's not definitive, I'll post another
2017-12-09T19:59:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://i.imgur.com/4KPXlH9.png
2017-12-09T20:00:00Z Devon: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's correct, what's in your init file to fix that?
2017-12-09T20:00:09Z pjb: still perfectly correct.
2017-12-09T20:00:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: nothing
2017-12-09T20:00:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: In lisp I do (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2017-12-09T20:00:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, in my emacs config, I just do (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
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2017-12-09T20:01:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I load these contribs: slime-fancy slime-company slime-macrostep slime-trace-dialog slime-mdot-fu
2017-12-09T20:01:24Z pjb: So basically , you followed the instructions in http://cliki.net/Getting+Started     Congratulations!
2017-12-09T20:02:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with my configuration :)
2017-12-09T20:03:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think, sometimes people have indentation issues because lisp-mode is using the emacs-lisp indentation function
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2017-12-09T20:05:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you do M-: lisp-indent-function<RET>, you should see common-lisp-input-function in the message arez
2017-12-09T20:05:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/z/a
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2017-12-09T21:54:45Z drmeister: Are there any lispers who use docker-compose and know how to get 'volumes:' to work?   I am building a Common Lisp docker image and I'm banging my head against a wall for the past hour trying to get volumes to work.
2017-12-09T21:55:47Z drmeister: Off topic - I know - but my cries in more appropriate wildernesses bringing no succor.
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2017-12-09T21:59:03Z earl-ducaine: parjanya: I'm planning on totally revising my approach.  Each post will be an org document, I'll use tangle tags to extract all the lisp code into an ASDF project and export as HTML to generate the HTML, which I'll publish to word press as files.
2017-12-09T21:59:25Z earl-ducaine: there are still a few details to work out like how to handle stylesheets....
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2017-12-09T22:00:04Z earl-ducaine: Previously my technique was just copy-and-paste from emacs to wordpress editor, which is problematic.
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2017-12-09T22:06:49Z earl-ducaine: drmeister: what are you trying to do with volumes?
2017-12-09T22:07:42Z earl-ducaine: the big trick that I've run into is the to use them you need to 'run' them first, and that specifying  *where* they're located no the host, i.e. host path and where they're mounted in the container is tricky.
2017-12-09T22:08:40Z drmeister: earl-ducaine: Thanks for responding!   I want to mount a directory from the host that contains a .tgz file and then untar it into the docker container.
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2017-12-09T22:09:41Z drmeister: 'run' them first?   Could you elaborate?
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2017-12-09T22:11:21Z drmeister: I can ADD the .tgz file to the docker container but then it adds a lot of useless space to resulting image
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2017-12-09T22:13:07Z earl-ducaine: drmeister:  I'm not a docker expert.... so this is probably not the 'best' way.  But it should work... give me a couple minututes and i'll post the example to pastebin.
2017-12-09T22:13:25Z drmeister: Thank you!
2017-12-09T22:14:57Z earl-ducaine: drmeister: while your waiting.... (the code is on another machine) the command I'm using is: docker creat -v /some/directory blah blah
2017-12-09T22:20:03Z drmeister: Oh - I'm familiar with mounting directories using:  docker -v ...      that works very reliably.
2017-12-09T22:21:15Z drmeister: I use docker-compose kind of like a 'makefile'  for docker - I was trying to get the 'volumes:' keyword of a docker-compose.yml file to work.  I _thought_ it played the role of 'docker -v ...'   mounting a host directory within the docker container that docker-compose starts up.
2017-12-09T22:22:53Z drmeister: I can _not_ use docker-compose and drop down to just using docker, I suppose.  It just irks me when a feature that appears to be the appropriate one (volume:) fails and especially when it fails silently.
2017-12-09T22:23:20Z drmeister is irked.
2017-12-09T22:25:14Z drmeister: Unless I misunderstand your meaning.   In any event - I look forward to your advice.
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2017-12-09T22:33:53Z earl-ducaine: ok.  I was being an idiot (i.e. giving you the long way round)  all you need to do is something like this:
2017-12-09T22:33:58Z earl-ducaine: drmeister: docker run -d -p 8090:8080 --volume $(pwd)/holt/dir:/opt/container/dir --name lisp-container   my-docker-image  /bin/bash
2017-12-09T22:34:33Z drmeister: Got it - thank you.
2017-12-09T22:34:48Z earl-ducaine: /holt/dir being a directory on your host.  /opt/cointainer being the directory on the container where it's mapped.
2017-12-09T22:35:57Z earl-ducaine: What I was describing previously was a way to take an existing docker image and mount it as a volume in another runing instance.  very powerful but not at all what you need.
2017-12-09T22:37:39Z earl-ducaine: drmeister: oop just saw your latest msgs, cheers!
2017-12-09T22:38:25Z drmeister: No problem!  I really appreciate the time you took.
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2017-12-09T22:40:46Z earl-ducaine: For a moment I got exited that I could help out someone nearly as docker inept as myself!    ....until you gently pointed out that I misunderstood the question.
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2017-12-09T22:49:52Z drmeister: No worries - I've subsequently learned that what I want (mount a directory during docker build) is not possible!
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2017-12-09T22:50:16Z drmeister: Apparently it was a design choice to improve portability.
2017-12-09T22:50:46Z drmeister: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26050899/how-to-mount-host-volumes-into-docker-containers-in-dockerfile-during-build
2017-12-09T22:51:11Z drmeister will allow #lisp to return to its regularly scheduled topic.
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2017-12-09T23:06:43Z varjag: any preferrable lisp library for rest apis?
2017-12-09T23:06:51Z varjag: client side
2017-12-09T23:09:12Z Shinmera: What more beyond an HTTP client do you want?
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2017-12-10T00:07:20Z waynecolvin: silly question: how do you view "documentation strings"?
2017-12-10T00:07:33Z Shinmera: DOCUMENTATION
2017-12-10T00:08:00Z Shinmera: DESCRIBE will often also print the docstring if it knows how to resolve it.
2017-12-10T00:17:29Z whoman: let's make CLOS++
2017-12-10T00:18:03Z whoman: oops wrong buffer!  Shinmera , looking forward to your stream tmrw!
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2017-12-10T00:20:52Z Shinmera: Sure.
2017-12-10T00:24:54Z jmercouris: I posted on #ccl, but I'll post my question here again, in case someone knows: https://gist.github.com/ea786f925cb0678690540492476feefb
2017-12-10T00:25:26Z whoman: would we someday be doing this but for CL? https://akabe.github.io/ocaml-jupyter/
2017-12-10T00:25:40Z jmercouris: Why might it be that my standalone program can call obj-c no problem, but when I use slime to call those same functions/methods, nothing is recognized
2017-12-10T00:25:49Z whoman: clim-listener i understand is close (well, Jupyter lets say is closer to original CLIM listener ?)
2017-12-10T00:26:06Z whoman: jmercouris: link in the objc runtime ?
2017-12-10T00:26:07Z Shinmera: whoman: there already is cl-jupyter
2017-12-10T00:26:20Z jmercouris: whoman: ?
2017-12-10T00:26:23Z whoman: oh !
2017-12-10T00:26:36Z whoman: jmercouris: objc requires a runtime .so/.a
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2017-12-10T00:27:09Z jmercouris: whoman: Well, my application works, I just can't call the obj-c functions via slime invokations
2017-12-10T00:27:13Z Bike: jmercouris: mac has a thing where you can only do things in the main thread, and the slime repl isn't the main thread. might be related, don't know.
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2017-12-10T00:27:46Z jmercouris: Bike: I start swank like this: https://gist.github.com/bf90172b27c07ff9edf023d3f6e7a3e6
2017-12-10T00:27:56Z whoman: Bike: i am not sure if that has changed in objc 2.0 but that is mostly for Cocoa app main loops (NSApplication##)
2017-12-10T00:28:07Z Bike: jmercouris: :style :spawn means it spawns threads.
2017-12-10T00:28:23Z jmercouris: Hmmm ok, let me try removing that line, maybe it'll be on the same thread
2017-12-10T00:28:29Z jmercouris: there is probably some weird context among threads
2017-12-10T00:28:39Z jmercouris: though I imagine the instance should be able to respond to a selector among all threads
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2017-12-10T00:28:50Z jmercouris: I have no idea how the runtime works internally, but that's worth a shot
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2017-12-10T00:30:50Z whoman: dont think that would affect the objc runtime. its never had anything much to do with threads as it is
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2017-12-10T00:31:16Z whoman: i would be concerned if sending messages had such a requirement
2017-12-10T00:31:28Z jmercouris: Still "unrecognized selector"
2017-12-10T00:31:55Z jmercouris: maybe there is part of CCL that does the lisp -> objc translation that is not getting compiled into my image resulting in malformed selectors
2017-12-10T00:32:01Z jmercouris: let me try compiling with no --no-init flag
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2017-12-10T00:32:47Z whoman: ohh. objc needs a few more ABI-level stuff. not quite as heavy as C++, but it needs special handling afaik.
2017-12-10T00:33:06Z whoman: selector names at least in pre-2.0 objc were like "_i__ClassName___selectorName_arg_arg2_"
2017-12-10T00:33:34Z whoman: so yeah. its been a while, check the FFI and that sort of thing, also have a look at Objective-CL written by a local
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2017-12-10T00:34:14Z jmercouris: huh, still unrecognized selector
2017-12-10T00:34:41Z jmercouris: again though, mabye in making my custom image I'm removing some crucial thing
2017-12-10T00:34:56Z jmercouris: whoman: What do you mean the Objective-CL written by a local?
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2017-12-10T00:36:20Z whoman: nothing just ignore me im just typing completely unrelated stuff, im sure you will work out your issue soon enough
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2017-12-10T00:36:57Z jmercouris: whoman: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, because the thing about the threads you are correct, that is related, and would be strange if the runtime behaved that way
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2017-12-10T00:42:43Z jmercouris: Problem figured out, thanks!
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2017-12-10T00:47:53Z whoman: aewmsoe! what was it, btw?
2017-12-10T00:48:42Z jmercouris: Subclass ccl::ccl-application in the standalone application instead of ns:ns-application
2017-12-10T00:49:10Z jmercouris: Apparently ccl::ccl-application provides some of these faculties, and I guess without them, the translation couldn't be made correctly/atall
2017-12-10T00:49:29Z whoman: ahh, ccl has mac-specific things? that is great =)
2017-12-10T00:49:59Z jmercouris: whoman: Again, I'm really confused if you are being sarcastic :D
2017-12-10T00:50:09Z jmercouris: CCL is built with an obj-c bridge and cocoa support
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2017-12-10T00:50:16Z jmercouris: so there is a large portion of it that is mac specific
2017-12-10T00:50:26Z jmercouris: it's actually a descendant from maclisp iirc
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2017-12-10T00:51:41Z jmercouris: Bike: You were also partially correct, it seems that one must launch slime on the same thread as the cocoa ui to avoid issues
2017-12-10T00:51:59Z Bike: the second best kind of correct.
2017-12-10T00:52:27Z jmercouris: yeah, so basically if you call it in the cocoa thread and it launches a new thread, it loses its mind
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2017-12-10T00:52:56Z jmercouris: I don't think it ever gets correct context, I'm not super interested in debugging it actually, becuase I don't think it's a heavy penalty to have swank on the main thread, probably an advantage if anything
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2017-12-10T00:59:46Z whoman: slime and threads drive me bazonkers
2017-12-10T01:00:23Z whoman: (SDL)
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2017-12-10T01:05:39Z whoman: https://github.com/asciian/papyrus
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2017-12-10T01:11:17Z jmercouris: whoman: How does it compare to org-bable?
2017-12-10T01:11:22Z jmercouris: s/bable/babel
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2017-12-10T01:45:28Z aeth: Hmm, so macros can have &optional and &key within things apparently. Time to build some really complicated macros.
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2017-12-10T01:54:28Z whoman: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf
2017-12-10T01:56:40Z whoman: minion memo jmercouris papyrus is lighter and cleaner, but org is structured and allows other code as well. i think i will stay with org for literate docs
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2017-12-10T02:06:01Z waynecolvin: print documentation strings https://pastebin.com/V94fjqxJ works in clisp, not sbcl
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2017-12-10T02:07:54Z Bike: sbcl probably has fewer docstrings.
2017-12-10T02:08:50Z waynecolvin: it has more, and style suggestions!
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2017-12-10T02:11:41Z Zhivago: aeth: See destructuring-bind :)
2017-12-10T02:14:35Z aeth: I'm considering building a very complicated, almost loop-like language with keywords
2017-12-10T02:15:10Z Zhivago: I'd recommend considering not doing that.
2017-12-10T02:15:45Z Zhivago: Very complicated things rarely work well in general, much like loop.
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2017-12-10T02:17:55Z aeth: I think I have three possibilities. I can have a family of related macros that largely share the same code. This is sort of like do-foo. I can build a complicated syntax that basically requires Emacs+SLIME to know what's going on through the names. Or I can sort of build almost a loop-like thing (really just keyword arguments) that could ideally be at least readable without an API reference.
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2017-12-10T02:18:51Z Zhivago: I'd suggest a radically different idea.
2017-12-10T02:19:01Z Zhivago: Start by writing functions.
2017-12-10T02:19:44Z Zhivago: Then write macros which expand into calls to those functions.
2017-12-10T02:20:07Z _death: macros with &key can be tricky.. think preservation of the order of evaluation
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2017-12-10T02:21:05Z Zhivago: That way you can separate the functionality from fiddling endlessly with syntax.
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2017-12-10T02:25:01Z whoman: so i guess packages are flat? or could one construct a tree organization ?
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2017-12-10T02:25:37Z Zhivago: They're flat in CL, but there are some extensions for heirarchy.
2017-12-10T02:25:50Z aeth: whoman: You can do that manually. e.g. foo, foo/bar, foo/bar/baz. uiop:define-package's :use-reexport is useful for this
2017-12-10T02:26:35Z aeth: i.e. foo uses :cl (so you can in-package) and use-reexports foo/bar and foo/quux and foo/bar use-reexports foo/bar/baz, etc.
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2017-12-10T02:27:59Z whoman: hmm. hopefully i can keep things simple
2017-12-10T02:28:09Z aeth: use-reexport keeps things simple
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2017-12-10T02:28:47Z aeth: You have hierarchies of packages all building up exports, but with only the bottom level (or top level? depends on how you look at it) actually naming what it exports
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2017-12-10T02:30:11Z Zhivago: The reason that it is flat is separate compilation -- and that the package is part of the symbol name.
2017-12-10T02:30:22Z whoman: well. i figure if i were to conflict with my own names, either my names are not good enough or i'm making up too many things that need names.
2017-12-10T02:30:52Z aeth: Zhivago: What I've been doing with the more complicated macros is relying on helper macros, so each layer of abstraction can technically be avoided. e.g. with-foobar might use a with-bar, which can be used on its own, too.
2017-12-10T02:30:54Z Zhivago: Well, you can always make more packages :)
2017-12-10T02:30:57Z whoman: too many similar things**
2017-12-10T02:31:25Z whoman: and that=)
2017-12-10T02:31:27Z Zhivago: aeth: Perhaps, but I'd recommend that with-bar expand to a call to a bar-foo function.
2017-12-10T02:31:45Z whoman: aeth scared me yesterday about name conflicts and i had haskell and js nightmares so i got edumacated
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2017-12-10T02:32:22Z Zhivago: aeth: Then your macro can look like (defmacro with-bar (zoo &body body) `(bar-foo ,zoo (lambda () ,@body)).
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2017-12-10T02:32:22Z aeth: whoman: but I should emphasize again that my package layout in zombie-raptor is the nuclear carpetbombing solution to name conflicts and there are probably simpler ways.
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2017-12-10T02:32:43Z whoman: haha true enough. ive closed the tab because of so many keyword symbols
2017-12-10T02:32:58Z aeth: Zhivago: The problem is that these macros are run very frequently in loops within loops (possibly within loops)
2017-12-10T02:33:12Z Zhivago: Macros aren't run at all -- the code they expand to is run.
2017-12-10T02:33:19Z aeth: (And the macros can possibly create loops)
2017-12-10T02:33:42Z Zhivago: Fortunately we have the ability to control the in-lining of function calls.
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2017-12-10T02:33:50Z whoman: hmm what is the opposite word for Scale. macros shouldn't shrink stuff, but expand them. no? i mean they arent called micros. and code Scales well sure, but what is the opposite ? well now i just dont know any more.
2017-12-10T02:34:15Z Josh_2: Scale works both way no?
2017-12-10T02:34:23Z Josh_2: gets bigger and can get smaller
2017-12-10T02:34:30Z whoman: that is what i am used to, eg. scale 0.5
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2017-12-10T02:35:20Z whoman: it kind of feels that aeth is going in a certain direction with the macros. but i am a newbie, never wrote more than 1 level of macaroni
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2017-12-10T02:36:33Z Zhivago: Aeth's plan seems to be to invent a new language which consists of a flat list of values and keywords in order that slime not be confused by its structure.
2017-12-10T02:36:38Z aeth: whoman: Macros could shrink things, even usefully. Consider a macro that removes trivial arithmetic operations like multiplication by 0. Iirc, sbcl's compiler's optimizer won't remove them for floating point numbers because that technically can change the outcome of the floating point operations.
2017-12-10T02:36:43Z Zhivago: I expect it will be very educational. :)
2017-12-10T02:37:06Z whoman: lmao
2017-12-10T02:37:09Z aeth: whoman: But it is probably useful to remove things like multiplication by known 0f0
2017-12-10T02:37:12Z Josh_2: I am like Slime, I get confused very often
2017-12-10T02:37:14Z Zhivago: Macros should probably be called syntax transforms.
2017-12-10T02:37:33Z whoman: paradigm shifters
2017-12-10T02:37:42Z aeth: (Sorry, I mean multiplying something by zero and then adding... clearly that could be replaced with nothing.)
2017-12-10T02:38:05Z aeth: (For just multiplying, multiplying by 1 could just be removed.)
2017-12-10T02:38:10Z Zhivago: aeth: Although for those cases you probably want compiler-macros which are a little different.
2017-12-10T02:38:16Z whoman: SPELs
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2017-12-10T02:45:15Z aeth: Zhivago: What I have (and it certainly wastes memory, but that's okay for me) is a bunch of data stored in specialized 2D and 1D arrays of the same length. What I'm doing is hiding that. I actually use symbol-macrolet to make something very similar to with-accessors, which mostly takes care of hiding that.
2017-12-10T02:45:48Z aeth: (For 2D arrays, they're obviously not of the same length as the 1D arrays or even necessarily each other, but they're of the same outer length)
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2017-12-10T02:48:22Z aeth: I either provide a specific ID or I provide nothing. If I provide nothing, I iterate over everything. Either way, code is only executed if the thing implements *all* of the things that I'm accessing with the accessors (checked very efficiently through boolean sets implemented as fixnum bits).
2017-12-10T02:50:23Z aeth: (I think I could actually greatly save memory if I implement a hash function and turn the arrays into a custom hash table, with the ID as a hash key instead of an actual index number to the arrays. But I'm not sure that would work because that wouldn't avoid the worst case of everything implementing everything. It would at least make things more cache-friendly in cases that aren't as bad.)
2017-12-10T02:52:27Z aeth: I'm essentially building something that's almost an ECS and almost an in-memory NoSQL database, and where the language-in-macros part comes in play is that I could greatly expand the possible ways to query the data other than ID match or everything.
2017-12-10T02:52:39Z fouric: "within things"?
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2017-12-10T02:53:56Z fouric: "aeth | Hmm, so macros can have &optional and &key within things apparently" <- have time to elaborate?
2017-12-10T02:54:18Z fouric has written simple macros before (little opengl binding things) but doesn't know enough to know what this is
2017-12-10T02:54:36Z aeth: "code is only executed if the thing implements all of the things" => "code is only executed if the entity contains valid data for all of the tables with accessors in the query"
2017-12-10T02:54:59Z aeth: "macros can have &optional and &key within things apparently" => "macros can have &optional and &key within lists within the top level lambda list apparently"
2017-12-10T02:55:08Z aeth: I think I de-thingified everything
2017-12-10T02:55:16Z fouric: lololololol
2017-12-10T02:55:20Z fouric: (incf aeth) ty!
2017-12-10T02:55:49Z aeth: A specific example: (ecs (index-name &optional index-number) tables-and-accessors &body body)
2017-12-10T02:55:58Z fouric: O.o
2017-12-10T02:56:10Z aeth: Macros have special lambda-lists
2017-12-10T02:56:18Z fouric: i did *not* know that
2017-12-10T02:56:29Z fouric: is that automatic destructuring that i see there, too?
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2017-12-10T02:56:55Z aeth: for the embedded list?
2017-12-10T02:57:03Z fouric: t
2017-12-10T02:57:11Z aeth: t
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2017-12-10T02:57:43Z aeth: And it's slime-friendly, so you can actually figure out what's valid, unlike with tables-and-accessors, which is complicated and arbitrary length, so I have to deal with that myself
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2017-12-10T02:58:24Z fouric: that is *super* cool
2017-12-10T02:58:36Z fouric: thanks for 'splaining!
2017-12-10T02:58:53Z aeth: I'm considering just putting a &key there and allowing complicated queries!
2017-12-10T02:59:12Z fouric: :D
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2017-12-10T02:59:32Z fouric: dewit
2017-12-10T02:59:39Z aeth: Maybe I can put &allow-other-keys there and be evil, if that's allowed.
2017-12-10T02:59:46Z fouric: uh, is that actually a thing
2017-12-10T03:00:02Z fouric runs to CLHS
2017-12-10T03:00:03Z aeth: it's used in make-instance
2017-12-10T03:00:30Z aeth: And it would be very evil to put it in a gigantic full-of-magic macro
2017-12-10T03:00:43Z fouric: eh, only evil if other people are meant to read it
2017-12-10T03:01:03Z fouric: and even then it's not just evil, but clever, too
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2017-12-10T03:01:09Z fouric thinks more code should be clever
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2017-12-10T03:01:15Z aeth: I guess it's future-proofing
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2017-12-10T03:03:32Z aeth: Oh, I'm writing very clever, terse code. And it's becoming more like that every time I add more functionality. Soon, I'm going to allow a special definition for helper functions so I don't constantly requery the ECS. i.e. implicitly pass just the arrays that are being used, and use with-entity-accessors only, without any direct access to the ECS.
2017-12-10T03:05:40Z aeth: Of course, it leads to people questioning things like why I set a variable to multiple values, e.g. (setf velocity (values x y z))
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2017-12-10T03:09:59Z aeth: (setf velocity (values x y z)) is really, roughly: (setf (array-row-of-3 %velocity id) (values x y z)) where array-row-of-3 sets the first three values of a row in a 2D array when given three values... so ultimately (psetf (aref %velocity id 0) x (aref %velocity id 1) y (aref %velocity id 2) z) and quite a few things are being hidden
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2017-12-10T03:13:41Z aeth: oh, and that's essentially (psetf (aref (velocity-velocity (velocity ecs)) id 0) x (aref (velocity-velocity (velocity ecs)) id 1) y (aref (velocity-velocity (velocity ecs)) id 2) z)
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2017-12-10T03:22:19Z Zhivago: Very clever, terse code sounds like a recipe for a maintenance disaster. :)
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2017-12-10T03:22:53Z aeth: on the other hand, it reduces the maintenance to a handful of unreadable macros instead of the entire source code
2017-12-10T03:22:55Z Zhivago: If the code is as clever as you can make it, it's probably too clever for you to debug.
2017-12-10T03:23:08Z Zhivago: I'd recommend making the code as boring as possible.
2017-12-10T03:23:20Z Zhivago: (Which often requires more thought)
2017-12-10T03:25:20Z Zhivago: For example, above, how am I supposed to know that velocity is magical like that?
2017-12-10T03:25:37Z aeth: it's actually in the macro above it
2017-12-10T03:26:18Z whoman: ouu interesting. i like that idea. puppet strings for a whole project, the One macro...
2017-12-10T03:26:19Z aeth:   (with-selection ecs (id entity-id)\n      ((velocity (velocity velocity :row-of 3)))\n    (setf velocity (values x y z)))
2017-12-10T03:26:55Z aeth: A bit confusing because the name velocity is used a lot but :row-of 3 basically says it's magical like that, and even says how many values it takes
2017-12-10T03:27:15Z whoman: do u even lisp bro
2017-12-10T03:27:23Z Zhivago: Ok, that's probably a little less horrible but, even so it seems like it would be simpler to have an obvious accessor.
2017-12-10T03:27:47Z aeth: Basically: with the selection from the ecs where id=entity-id from the table velocity bind velocity to the row-of 3 called velocity
2017-12-10T03:27:50Z fouric: Zhivago: some dude named Chad Fowler thinks that you should never modify functions, only rewrite them: https://dave.cheney.net/2017/11/30/never-edit-a-method-always-rewrite-it
2017-12-10T03:28:18Z fouric: if your unreadable, terse code needs to be modified, all aeth has to do is just rewrite it with equally unreadable, terse code that has the new functionality
2017-12-10T03:28:28Z whoman: the hero in Realm[s] of Racket is named Chad
2017-12-10T03:28:31Z fouric: it's easier to write code than read it anyway
2017-12-10T03:29:24Z Zhivago: I'd agree that you probably shouldn't change the meaning of a function.
2017-12-10T03:29:26Z fouric: whoman: i haven't ): school forced me to spend all my time writing verilog instead
2017-12-10T03:30:00Z Zhivago: fouric: But if he doesn't understand what the original does, how will he understand what the new version should do? :)
2017-12-10T03:30:06Z fouric: comments! :D
2017-12-10T03:30:13Z fouric: well, *one* comment
2017-12-10T03:30:17Z fouric: or maybe a docstring
2017-12-10T03:30:17Z whoman: C/java/objc/js//make/etc i can type fast and a lot with some nice music going, its quite chill and mindless. i like how lisp and haskell and ocaml 'force' me to reflect and think, as itchy as my hands are to type.
2017-12-10T03:30:22Z aeth: Zhivago: The accessor is (velocity velocity :row-of 3) and that's the same syntax as directly using with-entity-accessors, it's just combined into the database query
2017-12-10T03:30:39Z Zhivago: Ah, two versions -- one in uncompiled English, the other in perl-in-lisp.
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2017-12-10T03:30:57Z whoman: comments or not, the compiler is still the one "doing" it. code is generally quite specific
2017-12-10T03:30:57Z aeth: Doing things this way saves a lot of repetition (and potential typo bugs) since it's both fetching velocity and accessing velocity in the same place
2017-12-10T03:31:26Z aeth: s/accessing velocity/symbol-macrolet abstracting over the accessor for velocity/
2017-12-10T03:31:27Z Zhivago: I'm not going to stop you from doing this -- but I will point out that as developers mature they move from fancy to boring code. There's a reason for this.
2017-12-10T03:31:29Z whoman: yea Zhivago knows whats up
2017-12-10T03:32:51Z aeth: Zhivago: The array doesn't exist, though. The structs don't exist, either. Those are just implementation details that I want to completely hide from the user.
2017-12-10T03:33:28Z aeth: Otherwise I have to rewrite about a third of my game engine every time I change how the data is structured.
2017-12-10T03:34:06Z aeth: I have already done this about 3-4 times.
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2017-12-10T03:34:53Z ListenBuddy: Hello!
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2017-12-10T03:36:11Z aeth: not even a minute.
2017-12-10T03:36:27Z whoman: =) perhaps just came to share some hellos
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2017-12-10T03:46:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-10T04:15:38Z fouric: o7
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2017-12-10T04:34:54Z aeth: I didn't think about using macros to generate *inlined* functions, though. hmm...
2017-12-10T04:36:16Z aeth: Is there a resource for this?
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2017-12-10T06:09:45Z aeth: Is there a way to see if a function with a given name exists?
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2017-12-10T06:22:54Z Ober: y
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2017-12-10T07:24:21Z SaganMan: Good Morning
2017-12-10T07:25:40Z beach: Hello SaganMan.
2017-12-10T07:26:21Z SaganMan: I read sbcl realesed a new version recently
2017-12-10T07:26:27Z SaganMan: any major changes?
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2017-12-10T07:28:42Z jackdaniel: important changes are usually mentioned in the announcement
2017-12-10T07:29:33Z jackdaniel: so you need to type "sbcl.org" and select tab with news
2017-12-10T07:29:44Z jackdaniel: (in web browser)
2017-12-10T07:30:16Z SaganMan: -_-
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2017-12-10T07:30:22Z SaganMan: yes
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2017-12-10T12:56:59Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org : Due to continued abuse, this service has been disabled
2017-12-10T12:57:12Z francogrex: so that's it, the end of the pastebin?
2017-12-10T12:59:04Z jackdaniel: the end of paste.lisp.org, it's not pastebin. there is plenty of other paste services
2017-12-10T12:59:07Z jackdaniel: though
2017-12-10T13:02:51Z francogrex: it's sad. But anyway
2017-12-10T13:02:58Z francogrex: this : https://pastecode.xyz/view/de5c1fad
2017-12-10T13:03:31Z francogrex: why wouldn't the slot-value show, any syntax mistake I am making?
2017-12-10T13:05:08Z phoe: francogrex: the slot name could be in a different package. I mean, the symbol.
2017-12-10T13:05:41Z phoe: Make sure that the symbol you use in the SLOT-VALUE and the symbol used as the slot name are EQ.
2017-12-10T13:06:04Z francogrex: phoe: ok the package this is probably it yes
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2017-12-10T13:06:12Z pjb: I use http://sprunge.us
2017-12-10T13:06:38Z phoe: francogrex: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40742048/is-there-a-way-to-get-the-slots-of-a-class
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2017-12-10T13:13:16Z random-nick: is there a pastebin service which does rainbow parentheses or parentheses highlighting?
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2017-12-10T13:17:08Z jackdaniel: most do. one created by Shinmera has also CL-specific highligting: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/
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2017-12-10T13:23:05Z Shinmera: It doesn't do paren highlighting though.
2017-12-10T13:23:17Z Shinmera: I should check codemirror if it has a setting for that, actually
2017-12-10T13:23:48Z Shinmera: Ah, there's a plugin.
2017-12-10T13:23:55Z Shinmera: I'll see about adding that.
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2017-12-10T13:31:43Z francogrex: pastebin is the end of an era!!! it's yet another setback for common lisp... really makes me sad a little
2017-12-10T13:31:50Z francogrex: 0
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2017-12-10T13:34:17Z oleo: ?
2017-12-10T13:34:22Z oleo: use dpaste.com
2017-12-10T13:34:36Z beach: oleo: I think that was supposed to be funny.
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2017-12-10T13:37:13Z Shinmera: Okey, plaster now does paren matching.
2017-12-10T13:37:31Z Shinmera: Doesn't do rainbow parens, but I never liked that anyway.
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2017-12-10T13:46:26Z pjb: The big problem with the absence of lisppaste, is that the other don't keep the history. With lisppaste, I could refer to pastes 3 or 5 year old!
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2017-12-10T13:51:03Z oleo: who owned it ?
2017-12-10T13:51:12Z oleo: and why is it gone ?
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2017-12-10T13:51:42Z oleo: btw could not someone else had maintained it instead ?
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2017-12-10T13:52:15Z oleo: i suppose it requires much space too.....
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2017-12-10T13:53:09Z jackdaniel: oleo: it is gone due to huge volume of spam which couldn't be easily dismissed
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2017-12-10T13:53:51Z jackdaniel: there was a discussion on mailing list about possibilities, nobody stepped in to propose that he can maintain it *and* keep it safe from spam
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2017-12-10T13:55:55Z pjb: Eventually I'll stop using email for spam too…  But not right now.
2017-12-10T13:56:26Z pjb: But there's spam everywhere.
2017-12-10T13:56:28Z oleo: yah
2017-12-10T13:56:45Z oleo: and sometimes you don't know what is spam and what is not....
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2017-12-10T16:16:58Z waynecolvin: Ahhhh YOUR NAME IS PASCAL! sorry sorry sorry sorry!
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2017-12-10T16:19:48Z phoe: waynecolvin: wtf
2017-12-10T16:22:40Z waynecolvin: wrong line, pascal joke. i'm just an idiot...
2017-12-10T16:23:19Z jmercouris: Any idea why my code is not working? https://gist.github.com/0fb1a792795b8ec02e26e0b419e3545c
2017-12-10T16:23:28Z jmercouris: Is there something with the way I've set up my code?
2017-12-10T16:25:17Z Xach: jmercouris: it is working
2017-12-10T16:25:27Z _death: remove-if is not destructive
2017-12-10T16:25:33Z jmercouris: Ah shit, yes
2017-12-10T16:25:34Z jmercouris: Thank you
2017-12-10T16:25:35Z Xach: jmercouris: the list you get back doesn't have any document-modes in it, does it?
2017-12-10T16:25:36Z jmercouris: I keep forgetting that
2017-12-10T16:25:46Z jmercouris: _death: That is the problem
2017-12-10T16:25:55Z jmercouris: Xach: Yes, correct!
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2017-12-10T16:31:06Z jmercouris: What happened was I originally mistook NIL as "no matches" for remove-if, rather than the list was now empty
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2017-12-10T16:34:23Z lisp_guest: does using a macro in COND's clauses work?
2017-12-10T16:34:45Z beach: lisp_guest: You can use a macro in every place that is evaluated normally.
2017-12-10T16:34:59Z lisp_guest: the key here being "normally" i guess?
2017-12-10T16:35:11Z Bike: you can't use a macro AS a clause, if that's what you mean.
2017-12-10T16:35:12Z beach: Drop the "normally" if you like.
2017-12-10T16:35:16Z lisp_guest: what i'm doing for example is (COND (macro ...) (macro ...))
2017-12-10T16:35:22Z Bike: yes, you can't do that.
2017-12-10T16:35:28Z beach: Won't work.
2017-12-10T16:35:29Z lisp_guest: i guess COND is taking those forms and treating them as code to evaluate, without expanding them?
2017-12-10T16:35:37Z Bike: no, it treats them as cond clauses.
2017-12-10T16:35:41Z Bike: (condition ...body...)
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2017-12-10T16:35:51Z lisp_guest: right, then it proceedes to eval the first form, and bla bla
2017-12-10T16:35:55Z Bike: this is the non-normal evaluation beach alluded to.
2017-12-10T16:35:57Z lisp_guest: proceeds*
2017-12-10T16:36:06Z lisp_guest: yes, that's what i was thinking of
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2017-12-10T16:36:36Z lisp_guest: does a way around this exist? i'm just curious
2017-12-10T16:36:54Z Bike: what are you trying to do exactly?
2017-12-10T16:37:16Z lisp_guest: i knew you were going to ask that :D. i'm doing a simple rot-13 but it's not relevant. i'm just curious whether it's possible
2017-12-10T16:37:20Z lisp_guest: the problem i'm solving is solved already
2017-12-10T16:37:28Z Bike: well it depends on what you mean by possible.
2017-12-10T16:37:40Z Bike: you could have a macro that expands into cond with constructed clauses.
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2017-12-10T16:37:49Z Bike: i don't know whether you think that counts.
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2017-12-10T16:37:54Z lisp_guest: yeah, not really
2017-12-10T16:38:07Z Bike: macros expand into code. cond clauses are not code.
2017-12-10T16:38:09Z Bike: simple
2017-12-10T16:38:51Z lisp_guest: hm, right
2017-12-10T16:39:16Z beach: Bike: The correct terminology here would be "form", as opposed to "code".
2017-12-10T16:39:22Z Bike: true
2017-12-10T16:40:58Z lisp_guest: hm, what about a version of cond that would first macroexpand the forms in its clauses?
2017-12-10T16:41:25Z Bike: you could do that, but you'd have ambiguous behavior.
2017-12-10T16:41:36Z Bike: say you have a macro named foo and a variable named foo, what does (mycond (foo ...) ...) do?
2017-12-10T16:42:13Z Bike: additionally, the macros would only be valid in this one context, so if they appeared somewhere else by mistake you'd get hard to understand errors.
2017-12-10T16:43:18Z lisp_guest: Bike: why exactly is that case ambiguous? isn't it always treated as function or a macro call in normal code?
2017-12-10T16:43:38Z Bike: not in cond, obviously.
2017-12-10T16:43:48Z beach: lisp_guest: Your macros would have to expand to something that is not a form.
2017-12-10T16:43:52Z Bike: (cond (foo ...) ...) conditionalizes on the value of the variable 'foo'.
2017-12-10T16:44:02Z lisp_guest: right
2017-12-10T16:44:36Z lisp_guest: beach: yeah, i was just thinking about that. essentially what i wanted was for this macro just to expand into a cond clause
2017-12-10T16:44:53Z lisp_guest: but i forgot that the code returned by macros is eval'd
2017-12-10T16:45:17Z beach: It wouldn't be if you macroexpand it yourself into a context where it is not evaluated.
2017-12-10T16:45:24Z lisp_guest: hm yeah i guess
2017-12-10T16:45:41Z beach: I was just agreeing with Bike that "the macros would only be valid in one context".
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2017-12-10T16:48:20Z lisp_guest: Bike: ah i see what you mean by ambiguous. i was thinking of MYCOND as something that would allow *only* macros for its clauses, but that it would indeed be limiting. if you allow both macros and "normal" clauses, then it's ambiguous
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2017-12-10T16:49:47Z Bike: would you also have macros expand only once? because they could expand into ((condition ...) ...) which can't be macroexpanded, or into (foo ...) which only maybe means a variable and maybe is another macro
2017-12-10T16:50:01Z Bike: well, in short, it sounds kind of confusing. and i still don't really understand how this would be used.
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2017-12-10T16:50:16Z lisp_guest: yeah, i agree, it's a mess. it was just a mental exercise, is all.
2017-12-10T16:50:20Z lisp_guest: didn't think of coding this even
2017-12-10T16:50:34Z lisp_guest: i was just wondering why (1) my code failed and (2) would there by a way around it
2017-12-10T16:50:40Z lisp_guest: stretches the brain :-)
2017-12-10T16:51:17Z Bike: understandable.
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2017-12-10T16:58:08Z jmercouris: What's a way to find the class of a particular object (find--class) does not seem to do what I want
2017-12-10T16:59:06Z phoe: jmercouris: why?
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2017-12-10T16:59:18Z phoe: I mean, what do you want, and what does FIND-CLASS give you?
2017-12-10T16:59:28Z jmercouris: Yes, find class seems to find a class given some name of it
2017-12-10T16:59:40Z jmercouris: What I want to do is given Object X, find out what the class is
2017-12-10T17:00:03Z jmercouris: Let me try to explain why
2017-12-10T17:00:04Z phoe: clhs class-of
2017-12-10T17:00:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clas_1.htm
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2017-12-10T17:00:21Z phoe: no need to tell us why
2017-12-10T17:00:43Z phoe back later
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2017-12-10T17:01:17Z jmercouris: Well, at any rate, that is what I was looking for, if you have a bouncer or check the logs, thanks phoe
2017-12-10T17:02:56Z basket: jmercouris: So what are you using it for?
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2017-12-10T17:03:48Z beach: jmercouris: I think basket is asking because it would be very unusual to have to do that.
2017-12-10T17:03:59Z jmercouris: Yeah, that is why I wanted to explain this actually
2017-12-10T17:04:09Z jmercouris: to make sure I wasn't solving some sort of x-y problem with bad architecture
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2017-12-10T17:04:17Z jmercouris: Let me just gist my code, it's very self explanatory
2017-12-10T17:04:32Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/183f4ab92e36157554100d0d508cf15e
2017-12-10T17:04:47Z jmercouris: to give some use case examples
2017-12-10T17:05:17Z jmercouris: If you have a Buffer, with several Mode object instances: (list Document-Mode-Object Application-Mode-Object)
2017-12-10T17:05:34Z jmercouris: One may wish to switch-mode to the Application-Mode-Object, but not have a reference to it
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2017-12-10T17:05:46Z shka: i don't get it
2017-12-10T17:05:54Z jmercouris: so instead someone can say (switch-mode some-buffer 'Application-Mode-Class)
2017-12-10T17:06:13Z jmercouris: and it will look through the modes for an instance of Application-Mode-Class and switch to it
2017-12-10T17:06:30Z beach: jmercouris: You probably would rather want typep then.
2017-12-10T17:06:38Z shka: why not add methods specialized on class name instead?
2017-12-10T17:06:46Z beach: jmercouris: Otherwise, client subclasses won't work.
2017-12-10T17:07:08Z jmercouris: beach: That is not where I am using class-of, I'm only using it in add-or-switch-to-mode
2017-12-10T17:07:12Z shka: this way buffer subclass can act as a factory for modes
2017-12-10T17:07:30Z beach: shka: The class is not known at compile time.
2017-12-10T17:07:39Z jmercouris: The reason being that I want someone to be able to Create an Instance of a mode and pass it to add-or-switch-to-mode which will then EITHER ADD the mode, or SWITCH TO AN EXISTING MODE OF SAME CLASS
2017-12-10T17:07:54Z shka: beach: i see
2017-12-10T17:08:15Z jmercouris: So here's how someone would use it
2017-12-10T17:08:32Z jmercouris: (add-or-switch-to-mode buffer-x (make-instance 'document-mode))
2017-12-10T17:08:51Z jmercouris: and what this will do is EITHER add document mode and switch to it, OR switch to an existing document-mode associated with the buffer
2017-12-10T17:09:24Z shka: does not change the fact, that i would add some minimal set of protocol classes for modes
2017-12-10T17:09:38Z shka: and really on it, not on typep
2017-12-10T17:09:59Z shka: gosh
2017-12-10T17:10:11Z shka: my dyslexia strikes again!
2017-12-10T17:11:03Z shka: jmercouris: what's wrong with (defgeneric mode-can-be-used-as (mode intention))
2017-12-10T17:11:06Z jmercouris: I have no idea what you are trying to say
2017-12-10T17:11:26Z jmercouris: Every mode would have to implement that method no?
2017-12-10T17:11:37Z shka: that's what inheritance is for
2017-12-10T17:11:38Z jmercouris: Unless they extend from some parent node with an implementation
2017-12-10T17:11:43Z shka: yup
2017-12-10T17:11:44Z jmercouris: I don't see what the point of that is though
2017-12-10T17:11:49Z jmercouris: maybe I'm not getting somethin
2017-12-10T17:11:58Z shka: well, if you are having those modes
2017-12-10T17:12:13Z shka: surely, you have set of functions that operate with it
2017-12-10T17:12:25Z jmercouris: not exactly
2017-12-10T17:12:32Z shka: oh, ok
2017-12-10T17:12:37Z jmercouris: all of the functions operated by a mode are tied to the keymap for that mode
2017-12-10T17:12:39Z shka: then i misunderstood your intention
2017-12-10T17:12:41Z jmercouris: and whatever hooks are inplace
2017-12-10T17:13:05Z jmercouris: these will be dispatched appropriately by their respective mechanisms
2017-12-10T17:13:05Z shka: well, excuse me then
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2017-12-10T17:13:18Z jmercouris: No, don't take it that way, I just don't understand what you had in mind
2017-12-10T17:13:28Z jmercouris: it may make sense for my application, I just literally do not understand it
2017-12-10T17:14:09Z shka: hmm
2017-12-10T17:14:18Z shka: jmercouris: why not just put modes in hashtable?
2017-12-10T17:14:21Z jmercouris: beach: does my usage of class-of within this context make sense?
2017-12-10T17:14:42Z jmercouris: shka: I thought it was a little heavy is all, but maybe that is better
2017-12-10T17:14:55Z jmercouris: That would really simplifiy the logic
2017-12-10T17:15:02Z shka: i think so
2017-12-10T17:15:25Z jmercouris: What would the key be then, the class?
2017-12-10T17:15:34Z shka: name of the class i would say
2017-12-10T17:15:39Z beach: jmercouris: It is too late in the day for me to analyze your code.  It shall have to wait.
2017-12-10T17:15:40Z shka: or any symbol, really
2017-12-10T17:15:58Z shka: is that vim style editor?
2017-12-10T17:15:59Z jmercouris: beach: Ok, it's alright, the implementation will probably change 10 times before tomorrow anyway :P
2017-12-10T17:16:14Z jmercouris: shka: No, it is a web browser
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2017-12-10T17:16:22Z shka: right
2017-12-10T17:16:26Z jmercouris: shka: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT
2017-12-10T17:16:30Z shka: makes no difference, actually
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2017-12-10T17:16:38Z jmercouris: I feel like the least interested community is the actual lisp community lol
2017-12-10T17:17:06Z shka: just keep it simple
2017-12-10T17:17:15Z jmercouris: Yeah I'll switch it to hash table
2017-12-10T17:17:21Z shka: if you want select mode by some name, select it by symbol
2017-12-10T17:17:31Z shka: jmercouris: i actually tested this browser
2017-12-10T17:17:39Z shka: so i am kinda interested :P
2017-12-10T17:17:44Z jmercouris: You should test it again, it's significantly improved!
2017-12-10T17:17:44Z Bike: so basically, you have a list of things, and you want to have a function that selects a node by class, and you use the actual class rather than anything it's an indirect instance of.
2017-12-10T17:17:53Z jmercouris: Bike: Correct
2017-12-10T17:18:53Z Bike: in particular, the things in the list are "modes", whatever those are
2017-12-10T17:19:07Z Bike: what if it has more than one mode of the same class? does it not matter what gets picked? or does that not happen?
2017-12-10T17:19:12Z jmercouris: Bike: Modes are objects of classes that inherit from Mode Class
2017-12-10T17:19:19Z jmercouris: Bike: That should never happen
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2017-12-10T17:19:31Z jmercouris: There should only be one instance of a particular mode type for a given buffer
2017-12-10T17:20:27Z jmercouris: shka: Make sure to compile it though, the changes aren't available in the release binary
2017-12-10T17:20:59Z Bike: it's unusual to discriminate objects by their class like that, is all. the only time i've ever seen it is clos internals.
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2017-12-10T17:22:15Z jmercouris: Yeah, I don't imagine it comes up often
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2017-12-10T17:31:58Z beach: jmercouris: SELF is not a very good name for a parameter.
2017-12-10T17:32:10Z beach: jmercouris: It is better to use the name of the type of it.
2017-12-10T17:32:28Z jmercouris: beach: You mean like instead of (self buffer) (buffer buffer)?
2017-12-10T17:32:33Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-10T17:33:14Z jmercouris: I guess that would make it easier to read when specializing on multiple classes
2017-12-10T17:33:17Z jmercouris: is that the idea?
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2017-12-10T17:34:15Z beach: That's part of it, yes.  SELF suggests a single dispatch language where you are not allowed to use the same name for a type and a parameter.
2017-12-10T17:34:50Z beach: More basically, though, SELF is no better than X or some other meaningless name.
2017-12-10T17:34:55Z jmercouris: I think I'm finally deep enough into lisp where I can let go of self I guess
2017-12-10T17:35:12Z jmercouris: Ok, I'll try to do this for new code and slowly refactor it out of old things
2017-12-10T17:35:17Z jmercouris: Thank you for the suggestion
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2017-12-10T17:35:43Z jmercouris: I'm afraid of what Lisp is doing to me mentally lol, maybe I won't be able to work with other languages again :D
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2017-12-10T17:36:25Z beach: That's a very real risk.  So if you don't want that to happen, you had better quit now, while there is still time.
2017-12-10T17:36:29Z jmercouris: I was writing python the other day and I started typing (print "something {}".format(some-variable)) which is of course a non-sensical mix of python and lisp
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2017-12-10T17:37:08Z jmercouris: Is this the rabbit hole matrix scene of my pedestrian life :D?
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2017-12-10T17:39:10Z Shinmera: What annoys me most about working with other systems is typically not the syntax but the APIs. In Lisp I've so far had the "luxury" of just building everything myself.
2017-12-10T17:39:35Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Or even writing a macro on top of an API to use it in the way you wish
2017-12-10T17:39:39Z Shinmera: With anything else I always spend hours constantly googling documentation and how to do things.
2017-12-10T17:39:50Z jmercouris: Yeah, that is super annoying isn't it
2017-12-10T17:39:59Z Shinmera: And then get pissed because it turns out the designers didn't really design at all and you have to write some kinda shitty workaround.
2017-12-10T17:40:00Z jmercouris: and every project has their own distinct magical paradigm
2017-12-10T17:40:19Z jmercouris: consider Numpy and Pandas, completely break everything about python, get two of the most popular packages
2017-12-10T17:40:26Z jmercouris: s/get/yet
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2017-12-10T17:44:14Z shka: oh
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2017-12-10T17:44:38Z shka: Shinmera: nice to hear that i am not the only with this impression
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2017-12-10T17:46:36Z jmercouris: beach: How serious are you? do you find yourself unable to work in other languages? Do you not frequently work in C?
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2017-12-10T17:50:52Z shka: hehe
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2017-12-10T17:52:57Z shka: jmercouris: after working with lisp for extended period of time with lisp you start to feel like jim carrey of programming
2017-12-10T17:53:00Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_W7Jf-FM9Y ;-)
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2017-12-10T18:45:25Z phoe_: Is REPLACE supposed to work on circular lists?
2017-12-10T18:45:29Z phoe_: clhs replace
2017-12-10T18:45:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm
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2017-12-10T18:46:06Z phoe_: It only mentions that its arguments should be sequences. Reading from glossary, "sequence n. 1. an ordered collection of elements 2. a vector or a list."
2017-12-10T18:46:40Z phoe_: And, "list n. 1. a chain of conses in which the car of each cons is an element of the list, and the cdr of each cons is either the next link in the chain or a terminating atom. See also proper list, dotted list, or circular list. 2. the type that is the union of null and cons."
2017-12-10T18:49:10Z shka: phoe_: circular list is not sequence
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2017-12-10T18:50:06Z shka: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_seq.htm#sequence
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2017-12-10T18:51:24Z phoe_: shka: I see nothing about circular lists there
2017-12-10T18:51:47Z shka: what about "ordered" sequence?
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2017-12-10T18:52:08Z phoe_: circular lists are of type LIST because they are of type CONS, so they are a sequence, by that definition.
2017-12-10T18:52:13Z phoe_: as for order, that's a good point.
2017-12-10T18:52:14Z shka: given circular list, every element is parent of everything, including itself
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2017-12-10T18:52:37Z shka: therefore, although it is list, it is not sequence
2017-12-10T18:52:46Z shka: besides, sequences are supposed to have lenght
2017-12-10T18:52:49Z shka: *length
2017-12-10T18:53:00Z shka: circular lists obviously can't have that
2017-12-10T18:53:26Z shka: so I consider only proper lists to be true sequences
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2017-12-10T18:53:39Z phoe_: yes, that sounds sane.
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2017-12-10T18:53:59Z phoe_: I was trying to REPLACE a part of a circular list and I was a little bit bamboozled when it hung on a call to LENGTH.
2017-12-10T18:54:22Z shka: yup
2017-12-10T18:55:03Z shka: and because code can't say if list eventually ends, it just keeps spinning
2017-12-10T18:55:50Z shka: the only alternative is to track cons cells in hashtable
2017-12-10T18:55:59Z shka: so you will have consing length
2017-12-10T18:56:03Z shka: which is just gross!
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2017-12-10T19:04:55Z _death: tortoise, meet hare :)... (defun circularp (list) (null (list-length list)))
2017-12-10T19:06:06Z phoe_: I know, I know.
2017-12-10T19:06:09Z phoe_: I was asking about the standard functions.
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2017-12-10T19:13:24Z shka: phoe_: nah, standard functions that are said to work on sequences, work on proper list
2017-12-10T19:13:40Z shka: this excludes circular lists, dotted pairs and inproper lists
2017-12-10T19:14:15Z phoe_: oh well
2017-12-10T19:14:35Z phoe_ finished his solution of this day's advent of code with a custom replace function
2017-12-10T19:14:59Z phoe_: https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/comments/7irzg5/2017_day_10_solutions/dr1roy7/
2017-12-10T19:15:07Z shka: obviously, working on circular lists in particular would require large overhead for each function
2017-12-10T19:15:47Z shka: (loop repeat length
2017-12-10T19:15:48Z shka:                    for cons on (nthcdr position input)
2017-12-10T19:15:54Z shka: jesus christ
2017-12-10T19:16:20Z whoman: _death: does that work detecting circular lists ?
2017-12-10T19:16:39Z _death: whoman: why would I write it otherwise
2017-12-10T19:16:56Z whoman: just confirming. i am slightly a newbie
2017-12-10T19:17:31Z whoman is going through book.pdf right now
2017-12-10T19:17:48Z _death: phoe: here's my ugly one.. in my defense I was still halfway asleep.. https://gist.github.com/death/6d8271d50db60893706b097e5570322b
2017-12-10T19:18:09Z shka: phoe_: you really should have use vectors here
2017-12-10T19:18:18Z pjb: _death: list-length doesn't deal with circular lists, only dotted-lists.  Use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:list-lengths instead.
2017-12-10T19:18:23Z pjb: clhs list-length
2017-12-10T19:18:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_l.htm
2017-12-10T19:18:40Z _death: pjb: read that page :)
2017-12-10T19:18:58Z pjb: Oops, you're right. I read it too long ago.
2017-12-10T19:19:23Z pjb: But list-lengths is more useful, it returns the length of the stem and the length of the cycle.
2017-12-10T19:19:45Z pjb: It's dotted lists that list-length doesn't handle…
2017-12-10T19:19:47Z whoman: there are some functions that detect circular, i wasnt sure if length was one of them
2017-12-10T19:20:11Z shka: it is not
2017-12-10T19:20:57Z shka: circularity detection can be expensive for functions like length
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2017-12-10T19:22:17Z whoman: oh yes the book is 'art of symbolic computation' where i just finished circular list
2017-12-10T19:22:26Z jackdaniel: for arbitrary list circularity detection requires at least n steps, where n+1 cdr starts a circularity
2017-12-10T19:22:45Z shka: and memory!
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2017-12-10T19:23:15Z pjb: You'd use a hash-table to detect the cycle as soon as possible.
2017-12-10T19:23:41Z shka: that's the point
2017-12-10T19:24:05Z shka: but allocating hashtable for every call to length is just silly
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2017-12-10T19:25:42Z drdo: I can't think of a situation where one would want to detect a circular list
2017-12-10T19:26:01Z whoman: to see if it *is* a circular list, for eg. repeating patterns is very useful
2017-12-10T19:26:14Z whoman: it's like a free modulo
2017-12-10T19:29:57Z _death: drdo: for example if you want to print arbitrary objects
2017-12-10T19:30:14Z _death: clhs *print-circle*
2017-12-10T19:30:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
2017-12-10T19:30:34Z drdo: _death: Right, but if you are using a circular list, you presumably want it to be an infinite list
2017-12-10T19:31:10Z _death: drdo: sure, and you can designate it as such without infinite regress
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2017-12-10T19:38:31Z whoman: infinite ======= circular
2017-12-10T19:38:49Z whoman: literally the same exact thing
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2017-12-10T19:38:55Z whoman: metaphorically
2017-12-10T19:39:00Z whoman: and physically and logically
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2017-12-10T19:39:47Z _death: infinite doesn't have to be circular..
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2017-12-10T19:43:32Z phoe_: shka: vectors aren't circular, and this task explicitly deals with circular data structures.
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2017-12-10T19:43:47Z phoe_: I mean, I could have used AREF MOD, but oh well.
2017-12-10T19:43:50Z aeth: There are many ways to get a "circular" data structure without literal circular lists.
2017-12-10T19:44:20Z aeth: I personally prefer mod and arrays
2017-12-10T19:45:09Z _death: phoe: the access pattern hinted at by the problem suggests lists would not be efficient
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2017-12-10T19:48:18Z aeth: A struct as circular buffer (array, start, end, emptyp) with two additional accessors (after enqueue and dequeue), for arbitrary middle access (but not deletion from the middle) would probably fit a lot of circular needs.
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2017-12-10T19:48:57Z aeth: It wouldn't work well for arbitrary middle insertion/deletion (but even there there's probably a list scheme that doesn't require actual circularity)
2017-12-10T19:50:32Z phoe_: _death: yes, I get it. Computing this hash is instantaneous enough on my laptop though.
2017-12-10T19:51:15Z _death: phoe: sure, I'm not criticizing your solution :)
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2017-12-10T19:53:50Z aeth: looks like advent of code only tracks how fast you get a solution, not how fast it runs
2017-12-10T19:54:13Z aeth: writing an efficient solution might actually be a bad idea in that case.
2017-12-10T19:55:15Z Fade: Xach: I'm noticing a build failure in buildapp
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2017-12-10T19:58:47Z Fade: https://ghostbin.com/paste/53ehv
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2017-12-10T20:00:52Z _death: aeth: and many people aren't even on a good timezone/sleeping schedule for that to matter
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2017-12-10T20:02:52Z Fade: in that paste the system was finding a stray asdf in clasp
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2017-12-10T20:03:05Z jmercouris: Given this method signature: https://gist.github.com/d3cf8bb20092fb1bf2cddd57912924d5
2017-12-10T20:03:13Z Fade: but with a current checkout of asdf I get a similar but shorter error
2017-12-10T20:03:19Z jmercouris: (switch-mode *active-buffer* 'application-mode) my code is returning that no applicable method
2017-12-10T20:03:40Z jmercouris: Yet, very clearly, there is a method that specilizes on class buffer with name switch-mode
2017-12-10T20:03:57Z _death: class-name takes a class
2017-12-10T20:04:01Z Fade: https://ghostbin.com/paste/3bn6r
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2017-12-10T20:05:16Z jmercouris: _death: Yes, application-mode is a class
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2017-12-10T20:05:45Z jmercouris: _death: https://gist.github.com/0b5e1c0f2e016e99f313cf9ed30be7ac
2017-12-10T20:08:40Z lisp_guest: would (apply #'min list) be a good way to find the minimal element of list?
2017-12-10T20:08:51Z lisp_guest: or is there something more idiomatic?
2017-12-10T20:09:19Z jmercouris: lisp_guest: (min (list 0 1 2 3))
2017-12-10T20:10:32Z lisp_guest: but min and max are supposed to take REALs as arguments, no?
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2017-12-10T20:10:40Z phoe_: jmercouris: guh, that's a type error
2017-12-10T20:10:43Z lisp_guest: i just tested that and it fails
2017-12-10T20:10:53Z _death: jmercouris: no.. application-mode is a symbol
2017-12-10T20:11:23Z phoe_: lisp_guest: apply #'min is good enough, you could prefer reduce #'min though
2017-12-10T20:11:40Z shka: reduce #'min list :key #'length
2017-12-10T20:11:44Z phoe_: since APPLY is subject to CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT
2017-12-10T20:11:48Z lisp_guest: ah right, reduce
2017-12-10T20:11:50Z jmercouris: _death: Does the name of a class not evaluate to the class?
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2017-12-10T20:12:15Z lisp_guest: phoe_: yes, i was thinking something like that could be "hiding", since i'm really abusing apply in this case
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2017-12-10T20:12:37Z _death: jmercouris: no.. if you want to get at the class, you can use find-class
2017-12-10T20:12:39Z shka: oh, moment
2017-12-10T20:12:43Z shka: without :key
2017-12-10T20:12:56Z shka: good night all
2017-12-10T20:13:01Z lisp_guest: :-)
2017-12-10T20:13:31Z jmercouris: _death: Ok, sounds good, thanks
2017-12-10T20:13:47Z phoe_: lisp_guest: good.
2017-12-10T20:13:49Z phoe_: clhs call-arguments-limit
2017-12-10T20:13:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
2017-12-10T20:14:07Z phoe_: reduce will work on lists of arbitrary length where apply will only works on lists shorter than CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT
2017-12-10T20:15:54Z lisp_guest: phoe_: yup, great, thanks. quite surprised to find that CALL-ARGMENTS-LIMIT is 4611686018427387903 :D
2017-12-10T20:16:11Z aeth: reduce will work on all sequences. apply can work in strange ways, such as taking in a plist and making those keyword arguments when applying. It doesn't just work on &rest functions.
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2017-12-10T20:16:27Z phoe_: lisp_guest: depends on the implementation, but the minimum for portable code is 50.
2017-12-10T20:16:36Z lisp_guest: yeah, ofc
2017-12-10T20:16:46Z phoe_: So you might theoretically get a surprise when you are working on a 60-element list.
2017-12-10T20:17:04Z aeth: (apply #'make-array 42 '(:element-type fixnum :initial-element 42 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 3))
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2017-12-10T20:21:04Z aeth: phoe_: Theoretically, yes, but theoretically even long docstrings cause issues. There's a de facto minimum and it's usually much higher, with clisp as the lowest, when you go look for de facto minimums. It's no exception here, either. clisp is by far the lowest, at 4096. ecl and ccl are 65536 and sbcl is very, very large.
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2017-12-10T20:21:13Z aeth: 4096 is still low enough that it might cause problems with portable code, though.
2017-12-10T20:21:44Z phoe_: aeth: 4096, you mean, maximum array length?
2017-12-10T20:21:50Z aeth: call-arguments-limit
2017-12-10T20:22:09Z phoe_: oh, right.
2017-12-10T20:22:18Z phoe_: why do you mention docstrings then?
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2017-12-10T20:23:13Z aeth: phoe_: iirc, arrays are non-portable after a length of 1024
2017-12-10T20:23:23Z aeth: Even though they're much higher in all modern implementations
2017-12-10T20:23:32Z aeth: And strings are character arrays!
2017-12-10T20:24:19Z aeth: yeah, 1024. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
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2017-12-10T20:25:11Z phoe_: hahah, correct
2017-12-10T20:25:40Z phoe_: octet arrays can be at most one kilobyte long in portable code.
2017-12-10T20:26:15Z _death: a 2017-2018 survey on implementation limits could be nice
2017-12-10T20:26:17Z aeth: clisp is 4294967296, ecl is 2305843009213693951, ccl is 72057594037927936, and SBCL is 4611686018427387901
2017-12-10T20:26:24Z phoe_: tl;dr large enough.
2017-12-10T20:26:25Z aeth: Again, clisp much lower, but still high enough to not cause problems
2017-12-10T20:26:45Z aeth: It's like that in all 64 bit limit comparisons *except* fixnum, where clisp's *is* low enough to cause problems
2017-12-10T20:26:52Z aeth: low 40s iirc, as opposed to more than 60
2017-12-10T20:28:00Z aeth: oh, high 40s
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2017-12-10T20:28:04Z aeth: (log (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 2)
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2017-12-10T20:28:51Z aeth: 49 in CLISP, 62 in ECL, 61 in CCL, 63 in SBCL
2017-12-10T20:30:00Z aeth: Portably, the minimum is 16
2017-12-10T20:30:45Z aeth: I should put together a document for all of the minimums given in the spec, but then I'd have to install a ton of additional implementations, including 32 bit versions of every implementation
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2017-12-10T20:32:10Z _death: just yesterday sbcl exhausted heap when compiling my custom core.. so had to tweak dynamic-space-size.. there are more limits than standard limits ;)
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2017-12-10T20:32:27Z phoe_: the mighty non-standard limits
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2017-12-10T20:56:04Z jmercouris: Why do people use CLISP? what are some advantages over sbcl?
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2017-12-10T20:59:55Z aeth: People use CLISP because it was the most recommended implementation 10 years ago, and lots of people read things from 10 years ago.
2017-12-10T21:00:27Z aeth: At least, every time it comes up, that seems to be it.
2017-12-10T21:00:53Z jmercouris: huh interessant
2017-12-10T21:01:23Z aeth: It also (1) has a REPL with readline in the terminal without any hacking so it's approachable to people who aren't using emacs+slime and (2) has "C" in the name.
2017-12-10T21:01:38Z phoe_: 3) people confuse Common Lisp and CLISP.
2017-12-10T21:01:52Z jmercouris: Doesn't CCL also have a repl?
2017-12-10T21:01:57Z jmercouris: I thought most all of them had repls
2017-12-10T21:01:59Z phoe_: ALL implementations have repls.
2017-12-10T21:02:11Z aeth: jmercouris: readline repl, though, so you can C-a, C-e, etc.
2017-12-10T21:02:13Z jmercouris: is it the fact that they don't support prev-next with arrows/backspace
2017-12-10T21:02:13Z phoe_: but CLISP includes readline bindings, so it has a pleasant REPL where arrow keys work and such.
2017-12-10T21:02:14Z jmercouris: etc?
2017-12-10T21:02:32Z jmercouris: It's not that hard to make readline work, why is this such a big selling point?
2017-12-10T21:02:36Z phoe_: 4) it is an interpreter and has good support for unix commands, so can be fast and useful for scripting.
2017-12-10T21:02:39Z phoe_: jmercouris: OOBE
2017-12-10T21:02:40Z jmercouris: why not make it work for other implementations? licensing issues or?
2017-12-10T21:02:44Z phoe_: yes.
2017-12-10T21:02:46Z jmercouris: phoe_: What is OOBE?
2017-12-10T21:02:47Z phoe_: readline is GPLv2.
2017-12-10T21:02:51Z phoe_: out of box experience
2017-12-10T21:03:04Z jmercouris: Speaking of GPL v2
2017-12-10T21:03:05Z phoe_: CLISP has the nice repl out of the box, for other implementations you need to use rlwrap or such.
2017-12-10T21:03:11Z jmercouris: I was recently convinced to move my app from BSD to GPL
2017-12-10T21:03:21Z jmercouris: is there a good GPL comparison?
2017-12-10T21:03:27Z jmercouris: other than what's available by the FSF?
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2017-12-10T21:04:01Z phoe_: googling for `gpl comparison` gives me a few sane links
2017-12-10T21:06:28Z aeth: For an alternative view to the FSF's, you may want to look into what defenders of the GPLv2 (e.g. Linus) said back during the GPLv3 release controversy.
2017-12-10T21:06:52Z aeth: New GPLv2 projects are released as "GPLv2 or later" so they're not explicitly GPLv3-incompatible, though.
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2017-12-10T21:07:45Z jmercouris: Yeah, Linus is actually the reason I'm very carefully considering which license to release under
2017-12-10T21:08:17Z jmercouris: if I have contributors to my project under License X, can I change the License at a latter time, or must I have all rights to all submitted work like the FSF does?
2017-12-10T21:08:29Z aeth: The third non-FSF approach to the GPL is the commercial approach where vendors require copyright assignment and sell an identical proprietary version of their library. I don't think there's an ideological view behind this, it's just a business model.
2017-12-10T21:08:32Z jmercouris: I'm just worried I'm going to make a bad license decision and it will be a pain later
2017-12-10T21:08:59Z jmercouris: I also am kind of taking the Shinmeraesque view point a little bit, that likely if someone wants to they can just steal my code regardless of the license, but I still feel like I should set the "correct" license
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2017-12-10T21:09:36Z jmercouris: aeth: So wait, you are telling me they SELL their GPL software? why wouldn't someone just download it and use it?
2017-12-10T21:09:36Z aeth: jmercouris: You can go from a GPL-compatible license to the GPL. It's trickier going the other direction, especially since no one wants to do copyright assignment because of e.g. what Oracle did to Sun's projects.
2017-12-10T21:09:38Z phoe_: dual licensing, yes.
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2017-12-10T21:10:05Z phoe_: jmercouris: they have the copyright, they can release two versions of the code with different licenses.
2017-12-10T21:10:09Z jmercouris: I wish I could dual license with BSD and have a clause that says you cannot use it for commercial purposes or something
2017-12-10T21:10:15Z aeth: "GPLv2 or later" or "GPLv3 or later" isn't a technicality, it's a necessity if you want to change licenses later on.
2017-12-10T21:10:21Z aeth: But only along that GPL line
2017-12-10T21:10:25Z phoe_: one is GPL and you don't need to pay for it, the other is proprietary and you need to pay fro it.
2017-12-10T21:10:50Z phoe_: jmercouris: feel free to, there are a few commonly used non-commercial licenses around.
2017-12-10T21:10:59Z phoe_: as long as you hold the copyright, you decide how you license your code.
2017-12-10T21:11:04Z phoe_ afk
2017-12-10T21:13:00Z aeth: jmercouris: The GPL doesn't stop people from using it for commercial purposes (e.g. Red Hat or Oracle or Canonical or even Google) and there's a network loophole to the GPL that the AGPL attempts to fix (i.e. if you make your Foo library I can make a commercial Foo as a Service website and since I'm not distributing binaries of your Foo, it's allowed)
2017-12-10T21:13:28Z aeth: In fact, forbidding commercial use (e.g. half of the Creative Commons licenses) is explicitly not allowed under the open source definition.
2017-12-10T21:13:48Z aeth: The idea of the GPL is to just make it unattractive for commerical use, not forbid it.
2017-12-10T21:14:28Z phoe_: >The idea of the GPL is to just make it unattractive for commerical use
2017-12-10T21:14:44Z phoe_: Wrong, the idea of GPL is to make sure the users of the software have the four freedoms defined as essential by the FSF.
2017-12-10T21:14:47Z aeth: phoe_: well, the idea of using the GPL if you don't like commercial users
2017-12-10T21:14:56Z phoe_: ...but that's already becoming #lispcafe material I think.
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2017-12-10T22:13:39Z jmercouris: aeth: You are correct, certainly it does not prohibit that  use, but I am developing an application, not a library, so it'd be hard to spin it into something else
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2017-12-10T22:34:05Z aeth: jmercouris: I'm not sure what the difference between an application and a library really is, especially in a language like Lisp.
2017-12-10T22:34:54Z jmercouris: I always think I have my mind made up, but then a conversation like this makes me start all over again mentally
2017-12-10T22:37:05Z Josh_2: well not gonna find many libraries that are executables
2017-12-10T22:37:25Z Josh_2: the saved lisp images that is
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2017-12-10T22:41:00Z aeth: Josh_2: An application is (probably too simply) a library with an entry point. In Lisp, you're free to ignore the entry point and directly access things, even private things. You could probably even do this on a saved lisp image that isn't tree shaken.
2017-12-10T22:41:15Z aeth: An application would have to be pretty fragile with globals everywhere, etc., to have nothing useful to someone else.
2017-12-10T22:41:23Z Josh_2: Well that's neat
2017-12-10T22:42:07Z aeth: You can just do (foo-package::some-private-function 42 :really t)
2017-12-10T22:42:14Z aeth: You shouldn't but you can.
2017-12-10T22:42:26Z fouric: Ober: just salute, i thought
2017-12-10T22:42:37Z fouric: i was under the impression that o/ was a high-five and o7 a salute
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2017-12-10T22:54:43Z pillton: Xach: Thanks for adding my projects to quicklisp. Sorry for the hiccup too.
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2017-12-11T00:00:12Z republican_devil: xach what do youuse for lisp powered websites?
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2017-12-11T00:04:01Z jmercouris: republican_devil: I don't know what Xach uses, but Shinmera has a framework called radiance, is quite nice
2017-12-11T00:04:25Z jmercouris: republican_devil: https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance-homepage/
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2017-12-11T00:10:31Z phoe_: I tried lucerne, it's pretty okay as well.
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2017-12-11T00:18:36Z Xach: gavino hasn't been here in a while
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2017-12-11T00:42:20Z drmeister: Is there a way to control what C compiler asdf uses?
2017-12-11T00:46:34Z drmeister: I believe that ASDF is using the system clang compiler and I need it to use a different clang compiler
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2017-12-11T00:52:14Z drmeister: ASDF does compile C source - correct?   I see the pzmq library generates a grovel__grovel.c file - that is compiled somehow to a .o file.
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2017-12-11T00:54:32Z jfe: drmeister: unfortunately i'm an amateur on asdf. but i had a question for you. the other day i asked why compilers aren't more frequently written in high-level languages like lisp. if i understand correctly, you wrote the clasp compiler in c++. why did you choose c++ instead of lisp?
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2017-12-11T01:02:13Z drmeister: jfe: I did not write the clasp compiler in C++.   Clasp has one interpreter written in C++ and two compilers written in Common Lisp.
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2017-12-11T01:05:56Z jfe: drmeister: ah, i see. i listened to your presentation of clasp at google and must have misheard. thanks.
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2017-12-11T01:06:42Z Fade: jfe: symbolics wrote a very advanced C compiler in common lisp.
2017-12-11T01:06:46Z drmeister: Clasp interoperates with C++ (links with C++ libraries and C++ calls interleave with CL calls).
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2017-12-11T01:17:28Z Xach: drmeister: asdf does not compile c source.
2017-12-11T01:17:42Z Xach: drmeister: cffi includes a part for asdf that compiles c source
2017-12-11T01:17:56Z Xach: drmeister: config-wise, i think you would start with cffi's grovel mechanism
2017-12-11T01:18:07Z drmeister: Thank you - I'm digging into it.
2017-12-11T01:18:29Z drmeister: Something associated with groveling C code is generating malformed llvm-IR
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2017-12-11T01:20:11Z Xach: boo
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2017-12-11T02:18:14Z didi: When should I define a PACKAGE-USER package for my package PACKAGE?
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2017-12-11T02:24:25Z Xach: didi: i do it when i think someone might want to in-package to use no prefixes, but don't want to mess with implementation stuff. but it's also trivial to make a new package that uses PACKAGE
2017-12-11T02:24:49Z Xach: package-user to me is just (:use cl package)
2017-12-11T02:25:24Z didi: Xach: Cool, thank you.
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2017-12-11T02:28:18Z Ober: how do you get the line number of the offending error on sbcl when compiling and you hit the restarts/debugger?
2017-12-11T02:28:41Z didi: Ober: If on SLIME, I type ?v.
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2017-12-11T02:28:59Z Xach: I use slime and M-n and M-p
2017-12-11T02:29:01Z Ober: i've gone down the backtrace list hitting v and it'as all sbcl
2017-12-11T02:29:14Z Ober: thanks
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2017-12-11T02:30:46Z didi: Oh, tip: it got nicer once I added (declaim (optimize (speed 0) debug safety)) to my ~/.sbclrc
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2017-12-11T02:31:20Z Ober: cool
2017-12-11T02:31:31Z Xach: sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy is a way to do that in a more durable way too
2017-12-11T02:31:54Z didi: Xach: Thank you. I didn't know about `sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy'.
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2017-12-11T02:33:50Z Ober: just ql and sbcl. none of my code.
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2017-12-11T02:34:20Z phoe: there, enough on/off bouncing.
2017-12-11T02:34:44Z Xach: Ober: what is the error?
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2017-12-11T02:37:08Z Ober: one sec. trying to recreate
2017-12-11T02:37:37Z Ober: Cannot CHANGE-CLASS objects into CLASS metaobjects.
2017-12-11T02:37:37Z Ober:    [Condition of type SB-PCL::METAOBJECT-INITIALIZATION-VIOLATION]
2017-12-11T02:37:37Z Ober: See also:
2017-12-11T02:37:37Z Ober:   The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, CLASS [:initialization]
2017-12-11T02:37:40Z Ober:  
2017-12-11T02:37:59Z Ober: rototilling a bunch of code back into a single file, but can't find the line where it's bombing on
2017-12-11T02:38:08Z Ober: brb
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2017-12-11T02:39:42Z phoe: Ober: give us the code snippet that is causing this, if you can extract it
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2017-12-11T02:54:07Z loke: phoe: Seems to be as though he might be trying to redeclare a class from a standard class into a metaclass.
2017-12-11T02:54:15Z loke: That can be problematic.
2017-12-11T02:54:16Z Ober: if I could extract it, I would fix it :P
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2017-12-11T02:54:32Z Ober: ok will dig for it. thanks
2017-12-11T02:54:33Z Ober: xb
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2017-12-11T02:58:23Z Ober: allegro built it fine, lw gave this error which seems more useful. Layout for class #<MANARDB:MM-METACLASS FILES 41B0C43E23> has changed from ((VALUE 0 8 MMAP-POINTER T) (IDX 8 8 MMAP-POINTER T))
2017-12-11T02:58:24Z Ober:  
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2017-12-11T03:12:23Z drmeister: Ironclad generates a different MD5 digest than C++ code that I have and MD5 hash generators on the web - what am I doing wrong?
2017-12-11T03:13:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/I2iL1tl5/
2017-12-11T03:13:20Z drmeister: Output:
2017-12-11T03:13:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ZCqyEwCh/
2017-12-11T03:13:52Z drmeister: MD5 generator from the web:   0cc175b9c0f1b6a831c399e269772661
2017-12-11T03:14:00Z drmeister: http://www.sha1-online.com
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2017-12-11T03:14:57Z drmeister: The C++ code (My md5) and the MD5 calculator generate the same result.   Ironclad - something different.
2017-12-11T03:15:01Z drmeister: Different is not good.
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2017-12-11T03:18:36Z froggey: drmeister: I had a similar problem, it turned out my sin implementation wasn't accurate enough to build a table MD5 needed
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2017-12-11T03:23:57Z Ober: lw gui shows the exact place of error. thanks for the help
2017-12-11T03:24:55Z drmeister: froggey: You mean the trigonometric function SIN?
2017-12-11T03:25:20Z froggey: yes
2017-12-11T03:25:26Z drmeister: Holy crap
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2017-12-11T03:26:35Z didi: TIL MD5 is a chaotic function ;-)
2017-12-11T03:27:15Z drmeister: How accurate does it need to be?
2017-12-11T03:28:17Z phoe: drmeister: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5 has the precomputed values, you could perhaps check if your sine gives you same hex numbers
2017-12-11T03:28:19Z froggey: not sure, I ended up replacing it with a correctly precomputed table
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2017-12-11T03:29:07Z phoe brb
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2017-12-11T03:33:05Z drmeister: Ok, that appears to be the problem - thank you.
2017-12-11T03:33:11Z drmeister: Wow - not in a million years.
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2017-12-11T03:38:23Z drmeister: It's weird though - when  calculate the integer value - it's fine.   It's just when I convert it to a hex string that it zeros the last digits.
2017-12-11T03:38:50Z drmeister: In Clasp:   (floor (* (expt 2 32) (sin 1))) --> 3614090240
2017-12-11T03:39:06Z drmeister: In sbcl:    3614090240
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2017-12-11T03:39:56Z drmeister: 3614090240
2017-12-11T03:40:26Z drmeister: In Clasp:    (format nil "~x" (floor (* (expt 2 32) (sin 1)))) -->  "D76AA400"
2017-12-11T03:41:09Z froggey: I think that's a single-float problem. try (sin (float 1 0.0d0))
2017-12-11T03:41:14Z drmeister: In Sbcl:  (format nil "~x" (floor (* (expt 2 32) (sin 1))))  --> "D76AA400"
2017-12-11T03:41:19Z drmeister: Ugh - that's a red herring.
2017-12-11T03:41:25Z phoe: drmeister: these values look the same to me.
2017-12-11T03:41:34Z drmeister: They are all the same values.
2017-12-11T03:41:57Z drmeister: The MD5 wikipedia page says the value should be:    0xd76aa478
2017-12-11T03:42:13Z drmeister: So printing with ~X is zeroing the lowest two digits - I don't know why
2017-12-11T03:42:45Z phoe: float precision, like froggey said?
2017-12-11T03:42:46Z drmeister: froggey: Thanks   so I evaluate  (sin (float 1 0.0d0))   in Clasp and Sbcl
2017-12-11T03:42:56Z drmeister: Clasp:   0.8414709848078965d0
2017-12-11T03:43:05Z drmeister: Sbcl: 0.8414709848078965d0
2017-12-11T03:43:11Z phoe: hah, same thing.
2017-12-11T03:43:25Z froggey: how does clasp implement sin? calling out to libc?
2017-12-11T03:43:32Z drmeister: C++
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2017-12-11T03:43:54Z froggey: or std::sin
2017-12-11T03:44:31Z froggey: iirc that's how sbcl does it, so I'd expect the same result...
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2017-12-11T03:45:03Z phoe: ...this is crazy. SBCL, CCL, ECL, CLISP all give 0x00 at the end.
2017-12-11T03:46:31Z phoe: oooh
2017-12-11T03:46:33Z phoe: I got it
2017-12-11T03:46:57Z phoe: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) ;=> DOUBLE-FLOAT
2017-12-11T03:46:58Z phoe: (format nil "~x" (floor (* (expt 2 32) (sin 1.0)))) ;=> "D76AA478"
2017-12-11T03:47:04Z phoe: drmeister: this *IS* a float precision issue
2017-12-11T03:47:27Z phoe: AFAIK you need to explicitly pass double-floats to sin, otherwise it pops out single floats that are not precise enough.
2017-12-11T03:47:33Z didi has (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) inside ~/.sbclrc
2017-12-11T03:48:16Z drmeister: This is what Ironclad uses to calculate those numbers:
2017-12-11T03:48:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1Zdt3mhH/
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2017-12-11T03:48:27Z loke: phoe: If you pass a single-float to SIN, it will pop out a single float.
2017-12-11T03:48:32Z phoe: drmeister: (format nil "~x" (floor (* (expt 2 32) (sin (coerce 1.0 'double-float))))) ;=> "D76AA478"
2017-12-11T03:48:35Z phoe: loke: yes.
2017-12-11T03:48:40Z loke: phoe: That's not really an "issue", IOMHO.
2017-12-11T03:48:57Z phoe: drmeister: this smells like a bug in ironclad.
2017-12-11T03:49:04Z loke: phoe: You should be able to just use (sin 1d0)
2017-12-11T03:49:09Z phoe: loke: you are correct.
2017-12-11T03:49:41Z phoe: But wait a second.
2017-12-11T03:49:57Z phoe: ironclad has 0.0d0 there, which is a double-float.
2017-12-11T03:50:40Z phoe: So double-floats should be constructed.
2017-12-11T03:51:24Z loke: phoe: yes.
2017-12-11T03:52:57Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/a3LjhXpJ <- when followed step-by-step, this is what I see.
2017-12-11T03:53:08Z phoe: drmeister: can you execute the same series of steps in Clasp?
2017-12-11T03:53:15Z phoe: If we are lucky, we will be able to see where the output deviates.
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2017-12-11T03:55:56Z drmeister: Hang on - trying some other things
2017-12-11T03:56:03Z phoe: Okiedokie
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2017-12-11T04:02:13Z drmeister: I wrote a function to generate the table and ran it in Clasp and Sbcl - I get the same results.
2017-12-11T04:02:30Z drmeister: Spot checking the hex values with the Wikipedia page - the values match.
2017-12-11T04:02:41Z drmeister: I don't know what the problem is with md5 right now.
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2017-12-11T04:04:40Z drmeister: This is what clasp generates
2017-12-11T04:04:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HAdQDmzZ/
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2017-12-11T04:04:56Z drmeister: (defun ccc () (let ((*print-base* 16)) (print (loop for i from 0 below 64 collect (truncate (* 4294967296 (abs (sin (float (1+ i) 0.0d0)))))))))
2017-12-11T04:05:18Z drmeister: Sbcl:
2017-12-11T04:05:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/yj1SIgxm/
2017-12-11T04:05:49Z drmeister: I clipped the last line off of clasp's values - here they are complete...
2017-12-11T04:05:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VMODfEaD/
2017-12-11T04:06:51Z drmeister: ediff says they match, visual inspection says they match.
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2017-12-11T04:09:30Z froggey: that's probably not it then
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2017-12-11T08:35:54Z xificurC: when running a script with #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script is there a way to drop into a repl?
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2017-12-11T08:40:16Z pjb: xificurC: don't use --script.
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2017-12-11T08:41:13Z xificurC: pjb: what do you mean
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2017-12-11T08:44:16Z pjb: Let's try it.
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2017-12-11T08:45:54Z pjb: xificurC: well, it kind of works, but without --script, it doesn't run the script.
2017-12-11T08:46:40Z pjb: xificurC: so you have two choices: either call the repl toplevel at the end of the script (and use --script), or write a script to run sbcl without --script, but loading and running your lisp script.
2017-12-11T08:47:12Z xificurC: pjb: how can I call the repl toplevel programmatically?
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2017-12-11T08:48:19Z pjb: calling SB-IMPL::TOPLEVEL-REPL I think.
2017-12-11T08:48:25Z pjb: Alternatively, you can use
2017-12-11T08:48:39Z pjb: COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.INTERACTIVE.INTERACTIVE:REPL
2017-12-11T08:52:03Z xificurC: (sb-impl::toplevel-repl nil) works, thanks
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2017-12-11T08:54:29Z pjb: it might be a good idea to wrap it in a handler-case if you want the script to keep control, and to redefine quit to exit sb-impl::toplevel-repl instead of killing sbcl if you want to take over after the repl.
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2017-12-11T09:03:38Z easye: Lisp 101 question:  how do I distinguish between a reference to proper list and a dotted list?  The form (not (consp (cdr reference))) seems ridiculously non-terse, so I fear I am missing something basic.
2017-12-11T09:04:12Z pjb: xificurC: it may also be a good idea to call (sb-impl::toplevel-init) first.
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2017-12-11T09:04:22Z pjb: easye: by walking the list.
2017-12-11T09:05:12Z pjb: You may use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:proper-list-p alexandria.0.dev:proper-list-p #+ccl ccl::proper-list-p
2017-12-11T09:05:34Z xificurC: pjb thanks
2017-12-11T09:05:57Z easye: pjb:  ok, I guess that makes sense.  Just thought there should be something in ANSI to do this.  I was a bit surprised that LISTP acts as a complete synonym for CONSP.
2017-12-11T09:06:10Z pjb: Efficiency.
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2017-12-11T09:06:36Z pjb: Remember, lisp was implemented in 1960 on computers that were barely able to perform 1 million operations a second.
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2017-12-11T09:17:32Z tfb: easye: distinguishing a proper list from something that isn't is non-trivial in general: is #1=(a b #1#) proper (no, but knowing it's not requires an occurs check)
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2017-12-11T09:20:06Z easye: tfb: Yeah.  I'm just having one of those moments of realizing my internal model of CONS structures needs some refreshing.
2017-12-11T09:20:39Z easye: Funny how I can actually get something done without remembering such basics.
2017-12-11T09:22:59Z tfb: I spend my working life looking at a million lines of fortran and wondering much the same
2017-12-11T09:24:53Z easye: FORTRAN was my first language: studying a Decwriter printout of Colossal Cave and some of the Hollerith cards.  Real fun for a pre-teen.
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2017-12-11T10:35:56Z schweers: I have code which passes double-floats and '(unsigned-byte 64) values to helper functions and recieves them back.  After reading about block compilation in the CMUCL manual I wanted to try it, but SBCL (which I use) removed support.  So I put my helper functions into a LABELS form and put both DECLARE forms and defuns (which have preceding toplevel DECLAIM forms) into the LABELS form.  I still get efficiency notes like th
2017-12-11T10:35:56Z schweers: unsigned word to integer coercion (cost 20) to "<return value>"
2017-12-11T10:36:19Z schweers: Am I doing something wrong?
2017-12-11T10:37:12Z pjb: What does block compilation do?
2017-12-11T10:38:02Z schweers: one can specify a block of code which may consist of multiple functions, and specify which of them are callable from outside of the block.  this means that the other functions can be implemented with local calls
2017-12-11T10:38:12Z schweers: at least that is how I understood the manual
2017-12-11T10:38:14Z pjb: Efficiency notes are just that.  Nothing fundamentally wrong or erroneous.   This only means that sbcl thinks that it could generate more efficient code if you did something else.  But do YOU want  to do something else?
2017-12-11T10:38:26Z schweers: I want the efficient code :)
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2017-12-11T10:38:49Z pjb: schweers: well, by default all the functions in a single compilation unit can be called between them with local calls.
2017-12-11T10:38:54Z schweers: the CMUCL manual claims that block compilation can be used to pass non-descriptor values from and to funcions without boxing them
2017-12-11T10:39:13Z pjb: I think sbcl performs this optimization automatically.
2017-12-11T10:39:21Z schweers: hmm.  now that you say that, it does seem reasonable.
2017-12-11T10:39:23Z pjb: Ask in #sbcl to be sure.
2017-12-11T10:39:57Z schweers: yet all calls to the helper functions in the labels form are known at compile time, so I’m confused about the notes
2017-12-11T10:40:04Z schweers: will do, thanks
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2017-12-11T10:40:37Z pjb: Now, you may want to add type declarations, and provide public API functions that will check-type the arguments to ensure the declarations are fullfilled.
2017-12-11T10:41:21Z pjb: If you have a lot of them, you can split them over several files, as long as you compile them in a with-compilation-unit.  I don't know how to do that with asdf however.
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2017-12-11T10:47:20Z schweers: I put ftype declarations in place, both for the global and local functions.
2017-12-11T10:48:14Z schweers: is there something wrong with code of the following form: (labels ((helper (...) ...)) (defun foo (...) (helper ...)))
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2017-12-11T10:51:23Z Shinmera: schweers: Yes, why not just use a global function for the helper
2017-12-11T10:52:04Z schweers: I thought I had to put the code in /local/ functions in order to utilize non-discriptor representations
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2017-12-11T10:53:15Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I understand exactly what you want to do-- why not put the lables inside the defun if you want to share locals?
2017-12-11T10:53:32Z schweers: because I have more than one defun
2017-12-11T10:54:09Z Shinmera: In that case I would advise a definition for the helper and requesting inlining.
2017-12-11T10:54:15Z schweers: I have several “global” functions which use the same set of helpers which are not needed outside of these defuns
2017-12-11T10:54:34Z schweers: does inlining work nicely with recursion?
2017-12-11T10:54:40Z schweers: nevermind
2017-12-11T10:54:43Z schweers: its tail recursive
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2017-12-11T10:55:08Z schweers: seems reasonable, would make the code much more pretty
2017-12-11T10:55:10Z schweers: I’ll try that
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2017-12-11T11:00:29Z Shinmera: If you have non-tail recursion you can do local inlining to avoid the function-to-be-inlined to inline itself infinitely.
2017-12-11T11:01:00Z schweers: with a local (declare (notinline foo))?
2017-12-11T11:01:26Z Shinmera: Yes.
2017-12-11T11:01:40Z schweers: thanks for the info
2017-12-11T11:02:42Z Shinmera: Or alternatively not declaiming it inline and using declare inline where you want it inlined. I think in that case it won't recursively inline.
2017-12-11T11:02:54Z Shinmera: Though I'm not sure that case is entirely specified...?
2017-12-11T11:03:36Z schweers: or not inlining the recursive function itself but defining a wrapper function which can be declared inline?
2017-12-11T11:03:52Z Shinmera: Then what's the point of inlining at all?
2017-12-11T11:03:52Z Younder: schweers, notinline?
2017-12-11T11:04:09Z Younder: New one to me
2017-12-11T11:04:11Z schweers: ugh, you’re right that would not have solved my problem
2017-12-11T11:04:21Z schweers: nevermind, was a brainfart
2017-12-11T11:05:20Z Younder: As they say Lisp is not old it just smells fully ;)
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2017-12-11T11:08:16Z pjb: schweers: there's nothing wrong, but it should be equivalent to (defun … (labels ((do-not-name-it-helper-or-anything-like-that …)) …))
2017-12-11T11:08:49Z pjb: schweers: the only downside of having defun not as a toplevel form, is that the compiler cannot make note that a function is defined, so it may issue undefined function warnings.
2017-12-11T11:09:22Z schweers: okay, that makes sense
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2017-12-11T11:09:51Z pjb: schweers: the only case where you would need to put defun in a non-toplevel labels, would be if your local functions would have to be used by several defun.  Then you have to ask yourself seriously why not making them global functions.
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2017-12-11T11:10:29Z Younder: pjb, I have found myself using flet in macros
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2017-12-11T11:10:47Z pjb: Younder: Of course.
2017-12-11T11:11:28Z schweers: pjb: that is exactly the situation I had.  I’ve now declared the helper functions to inlined.  I’m not entirely happy with the notes yet, but I’ll do some more testing etc before I continue banging at it.
2017-12-11T11:12:04Z schweers: I’m off for lunch, thanks for the tips!
2017-12-11T11:12:13Z pjb: You know that optimizing type declarations and notes, will give you only 1 or 2% improvement.
2017-12-11T11:12:24Z pjb: If you want to optimize things, design a better algorithm and data structure!
2017-12-11T11:14:04Z loke: pjb: actually, not always. My implementation of the simplex noise algorithm ended up 10× or so faster by adding delcarations.
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2017-12-11T11:14:17Z Younder: pjb: the optimization structure for Lisp is hard to understand. Perhaps you could come up with some simple rules. Like don't cons up.
2017-12-11T11:16:06Z loke: pjb: Here's the code. You can remove the declarations to see the difference:
2017-12-11T11:16:07Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/2cc6ca22c8492aa8d471f24ada434e78
2017-12-11T11:16:13Z Younder: I seem to remember 40x penalty for using temporary list's in calculations.  Estimates of cource
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2017-12-11T11:22:56Z tfb: I think the first-order story about declarations is: it matters for float-intensive code
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2017-12-11T11:25:34Z Younder: tfb, For float intensive, you need AFX or better still GPU. So tap into something like LAPACK
2017-12-11T11:27:03Z tfb: Younder: you don't (and you can trust me on this: I run float-intensive code on thousands of cores)
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2017-12-11T11:28:38Z Younder: Well I have two Titan blacks only. And 10 Pi2's is my cluster.
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2017-12-11T11:29:35Z Younder: So my experience may be limeted., But feel free to share experiences :)
2017-12-11T11:30:24Z Younder: Afterall it was all ever a makeshift approximation.
2017-12-11T11:32:34Z Younder: A test for MPI, CUDA and OpemML. And of late Open ACC.
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2017-12-11T11:34:48Z Younder: tfb: Are you telling me you are running computing intensive applications on a cluster entirely in Lisp?
2017-12-11T11:38:06Z tfb: Younder: No, sorry.  All our HPC code is fortran.  What I meant was that if you have float code which falls back to generic arithmetic that's often a factor of ~100, so if the system should be spending 1% of its time in float code, it's now spending half of it.  So making sure float code doesn't fall back to generic arithmetic really matters if there is even a very small amount of it
2017-12-11T11:41:07Z Younder: Well I have tried a simulation of 65000 star galaxy similar to the Magellan cloud on my Titans
2017-12-11T11:41:59Z Younder: It's bit but has a self similar structure.
2017-12-11T11:43:14Z Younder: I studied physics in my time, and have a particular fondness for celestial mechanics.
2017-12-11T11:43:45Z Younder: The old Newtonian type
2017-12-11T11:44:46Z Younder: (The Mag doesn't seem to have any major Black holes)
2017-12-11T11:46:21Z Younder: That said It wasn't written in lisp, but on a CGI compiler in C.
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2017-12-11T11:57:43Z Younder: My PI2's were spendt for a simulation of telephone central system. MPI and C again.
2017-12-11T11:58:03Z Younder: Though I expect Lisp could have been used here.
2017-12-11T11:59:40Z Younder: Cool though this is I have moved mostly into embedded comping these days. Designing a drone which is totally anonymous.
2017-12-11T12:01:15Z Younder: 6 cameras, a NVidea TX1 and more C. Though RUST is coming up as a solid alternative.
2017-12-11T12:04:48Z Younder: A circuit boar with a Xilix FPGA implementation of G5 with a Digital Devices MEMS antenna on a M2 port with PCIe  that will fit on a credit card is the current challenge.
2017-12-11T12:06:08Z Younder: But feel free to ignore me as I make to many grammatical  and syntactical mistakes, being dyslexic
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2017-12-11T12:26:36Z Zhivago: Ok.
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2017-12-11T12:37:15Z Xach: ASDF 3.3.1 reports fatal circular dependencies that ASDF 3.1.5 does not. I wonder if it's in error or something else.
2017-12-11T12:37:33Z Xach: One example is simple-date-postgres-glue and another is tinaa-and-cl-markdown.
2017-12-11T12:38:06Z Xach: hmm, the latter has asdf-system-connections, which is I think a pit of trouble these days.
2017-12-11T12:38:57Z Xach: hmm, both non-primary systems
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2017-12-11T12:46:33Z Xach: dim: are you in any position to investigate and perhaps propose changes to simple-date to make things work again?
2017-12-11T12:47:18Z Xach: dim: I think the whole glue thing might be a candidate for removal and simplification at the expense of a little more cross-dependency.
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2017-12-11T12:52:14Z Shinmera: Xach: I've been having even more issues with ASDF 3.3: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/issues/25
2017-12-11T12:52:35Z Shinmera: Something about invoking QL or ASDF while it's trying to load another system is messing it up
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2017-12-11T12:52:51Z Shinmera: Haven't had time to investigate yet, but this was never a problem until the recent ASDF updates in SBCL.
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2017-12-11T12:52:54Z Xach: ugh
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2017-12-11T13:02:12Z dim: Xach: I could see about devoting some time to it... my gut feeling is that we have bugs in ASDF tho
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2017-12-11T13:02:35Z dim: also, who's maintaining postmodern these days?
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2017-12-11T13:03:47Z dim: looks like it would be Cyrus Harmon (slyrus on github)
2017-12-11T13:03:57Z Xach: dim: marijn merges PRs but there is no primary development
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2017-12-11T13:04:52Z dim: I'm not sure I've learnt enough CL to see about improving Postmodern yet... last I tried I sure wasn't there yet ;-)
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2017-12-11T13:05:25Z Xach: I think it's postmodern's system of conditionally loading something via asdf
2017-12-11T13:05:46Z Xach: And I think it could be made unconditional
2017-12-11T13:05:58Z Xach: ASDF problems make my skin crawl and this month is bad.
2017-12-11T13:06:26Z dim: do you have to upgrade asdf?
2017-12-11T13:06:43Z Xach: It is now part of sbcl 1.4.2.
2017-12-11T13:06:57Z Xach: I feel awful about giving neutral feedback about its impact. I didn't test properly or something.
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2017-12-11T13:07:20Z dim: well that happens
2017-12-11T13:07:41Z dim: the only way to never make a mistake is to never do anything, as my mother would say ;-)
2017-12-11T13:08:11Z Zhivago: Which would be a mistake, so you're screwed either way.
2017-12-11T13:08:28Z dim: also, well, ASDF is known to be buggy, where QL mostly just works
2017-12-11T13:08:40Z Xach: a function of its relative simplicity, i think.
2017-12-11T13:08:53Z dim: can SBCL release 1.4.3 with the previous ASDF and remove 1.4.2 from mirrors?
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2017-12-11T13:09:40Z Xach: perhaps the former but the latter seems outlandish to me
2017-12-11T13:09:51Z Xach: scymtym, any thoughts on the matter?
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2017-12-11T13:13:21Z dim: as a second step I would question the release process of asdf, really
2017-12-11T13:14:42Z nickb: Hi. I'm trying to install sqlite3 on a Windows system using quicklisp. I know nothing about lisp, just need to build an application using it. I get an error: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9d632dff0f9e26e84ba91458d3ff5eea (doesn't tell me much). Any advice?
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2017-12-11T13:16:10Z tfb: Younder: rust looks like an interesting thing.  But fortran is so embedded for the stuff we do I am sure it will live for ever, unfortunately
2017-12-11T13:17:03Z pjb: nickb: you would have to learn how the sqlite3 library is named on MS-Windows, and to know where it's stored, to configure cffi to find it there.
2017-12-11T13:17:27Z pjb: nickb: configure cffi:*FOREIGN-LIBRARY-DIRECTORIES*
2017-12-11T13:17:50Z pjb: (check it's value for the default paths searched).
2017-12-11T13:18:11Z pjb: nickb: and of course, you need to have installed sqlite3 on MS-Windows first.
2017-12-11T13:18:29Z nickb: the latter I have done already :)
2017-12-11T13:18:57Z nickb: first 2 require at least some basic knowledge on how lisp works which I'm lacking as of now. Point me towards something to read please
2017-12-11T13:19:25Z pjb: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html
2017-12-11T13:20:17Z nickb: Thank you very much.
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2017-12-11T13:35:56Z hajovonta: hi
2017-12-11T13:39:59Z knobo: When I do (select-dao 'some-postmodern-class) columns with null value is returned as :null. Can my slots be unbound in stead?
2017-12-11T13:40:39Z knobo: does postmodern have a feature like that?
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2017-12-11T13:46:41Z phoe: knobo: grepping the manual tells me not. You can try some manual processing of the returned daos if you really want it, as in, loop for all slot-values if :null then slot-makunbound.
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2017-12-11T13:46:59Z phoe: But this may have consequences I am not yet aware of.
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2017-12-11T13:48:08Z nickb: pjb: CFFI should be able to find my sqlite3 libs. The only lib (sqlite3.dll) is in PATH, shouldn't that be enough?
2017-12-11T13:50:07Z Shinmera: nickb: Does it have any dependencies that are unfulfilled?
2017-12-11T13:50:24Z Shinmera: Windows (unfortunately) just reports the library as missing if its dependencies can't be found, even if the library itself can be.
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2017-12-11T13:50:30Z nickb: I can't tell; the only error I get when trying to install "sqlite3" is that the name is not resolved
2017-12-11T13:50:37Z nickb: ah
2017-12-11T13:50:47Z nickb: so it requires Alexandria and Babel
2017-12-11T13:50:55Z Shinmera: No that's not what I meant
2017-12-11T13:51:02Z Shinmera: I meant the dependencies of the dll.
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2017-12-11T13:51:20Z nickb: yeah dll is fine
2017-12-11T13:51:32Z nickb: it only needs KERNEL32.dll and msvcrt.dll
2017-12-11T13:51:40Z Shinmera: Okey.
2017-12-11T13:52:18Z nickb: so.. How can I learn what is the library name for Windows?
2017-12-11T13:54:55Z phoe: nickb: dependency walker
2017-12-11T13:55:05Z phoe: download it, use it, enjoy it
2017-12-11T13:55:06Z nickb: uhm.. Thats for windows
2017-12-11T13:55:13Z phoe: oh wait
2017-12-11T13:55:20Z phoe: what is the library name for windows?
2017-12-11T13:55:29Z phoe: check inside the sqlite CL package
2017-12-11T13:55:52Z nickb: I can't install it either
2017-12-11T13:55:58Z nickb: (at least with quicklisp)
2017-12-11T13:56:09Z phoe: https://github.com/dmitryvk/cl-sqlite/blob/master/sqlite-ffi.lisp#L37
2017-12-11T13:56:19Z phoe: looks like sqlite3.dll will match
2017-12-11T13:58:48Z nickb: > WARNING: the Windows port is fragile; Maybe thats it and I should give up :)
2017-12-11T13:59:03Z Shinmera: That message is not really any more applicable
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2017-12-11T14:00:38Z nickb: Ok when I get an error that the library is missing I have an option to enter alternative name instead. So I enter: ("sqlite3-lib") and get and error:  Unable to load foreign library (SQLITE3-LIB-625). Am I doing this completely wrong?
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2017-12-11T14:11:26Z pjb: nickb: you may also directly load the library.
2017-12-11T14:11:39Z pjb: At least to test that the ffi part works.
2017-12-11T14:11:54Z nickb: How would I go about it? With ql:quickload?
2017-12-11T14:12:38Z pjb: (cffi:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY #P"c:\…\sqlite3.dll")
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2017-12-11T14:13:14Z pjb: well, \\ not \
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2017-12-11T14:13:38Z pjb: You should switch to Linux or macOS…
2017-12-11T14:14:24Z nickb: The whole point is to build pgloader _for_ Windows. Doubt I can do that in macOS or Linux :(
2017-12-11T14:15:20Z nickb: no luck
2017-12-11T14:16:01Z nickb: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/86260013ea5acab933ea9ed025f348e5 (this path is what MSYS2 understands; I've tried with different formats as well)
2017-12-11T14:20:08Z pjb: You cumulate the difficulties: Using MS-Windows, Using sbcl (with his uninformative error messages)…
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2017-12-11T14:24:41Z didi: I am certain I asked this before, but I can't remember the answer, sorry: Why doesn't (let ((x 42)) (loop for x = x then (+ x 1))) work? i.e. SBCL complains that NIL isn't of type NUMBER. I suspect the second X from the LOOP form isn't bound to 42.
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2017-12-11T14:33:11Z lieven: the x of 'for x' already gets defined in the loop prologue and shadows the outer x of the let
2017-12-11T14:34:24Z didi: lieven: oic. I was expecting the same behavior of DO, I guess, as in the second X gets the value of the environment.
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2017-12-11T14:44:31Z lieven: yeah I think they could have gone that way. No idea why they didn't.
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2017-12-11T14:46:21Z tfb: didi: I suspect strongly that it's undefined which happens
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2017-12-11T14:46:54Z tfb: (both implementations I have easy access to 'work' with (let ((x 1)) (loop for x from x below ... do ...)
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2017-12-11T14:48:51Z ebrasca: Is hunchensocket alive?
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2017-12-11T14:51:41Z jackdaniel: If software starts to live, it's time to run
2017-12-11T14:52:48Z lieven: there's an exception in 6.1.1.4 made for loop-as-then that is not made for the others so testing with from x might not be relevant
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2017-12-11T14:54:07Z ebrasca: Is hunchensocket recomended for WebSockets and Hunchentoot?
2017-12-11T14:55:51Z lieven: http://clhs.lisp.se/Issues/iss222_w.htm deals with this example
2017-12-11T14:56:24Z jackdaniel: we use it in production and works fine, using it is a sane choice
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2017-12-11T14:56:34Z whoman: ebrasca, i am also going to use it
2017-12-11T14:56:58Z didi: lieven: Ah, cool.
2017-12-11T14:57:26Z lieven: I just don't know why they treated as-equals-then differently
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2017-12-11T15:01:01Z lieven: of course, 'for x = <form1>' is a shorthand for 'for x = <form1> then <form1>' and it will evaluate <form1> for each step of the iteration
2017-12-11T15:01:18Z lieven: so it would be a bit awkward to have it refer to another binding for the first step
2017-12-11T15:02:54Z didi: Heh, I thought <form1> from `for x = <form1>' was evaled only once.
2017-12-11T15:03:25Z lieven: that would be `with x = <form1>'
2017-12-11T15:03:35Z didi nods
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2017-12-11T15:05:11Z tfb: lieven: oh, yes, for-as-equals-then is really weird in the spec
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2017-12-11T15:07:40Z tfb: lieven: but your argument about '(loop for x = ... do ...)' smells right
2017-12-11T15:10:23Z jdz: ebrasca: hunchensocket works for me.
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2017-12-11T15:11:22Z jdz: Although I'm not sure it's feasible for internet-facing apps.
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2017-12-11T15:16:00Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2017-12-11T15:18:50Z warweasle: beach: Yo
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2017-12-11T15:23:37Z pjb: didi: basically, for is not a binding keyword.  loop creates all the variables it need before.
2017-12-11T15:24:17Z pjb: didi: this is also what makes the variable available in the loop epilog in practice (even if using them is not well defined).
2017-12-11T15:26:06Z Ober: is there a function to convert octet vectors to strings?
2017-12-11T15:26:14Z didi: pjb: Thank you.
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2017-12-11T15:26:53Z pjb: Ober: several.
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2017-12-11T15:27:23Z Ober: ok babel it is
2017-12-11T15:27:38Z pjb: Ober: (defun octet-vector-to-string (os) (prin1-to-string os))  (octet-vector-to-string (coerce #(1 2 3) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)))) #| --> "#(1 2 3)" |#
2017-12-11T15:27:43Z jdz: Ober: if it's not unicode then plain (map 'string #'code-char input) works just fine.
2017-12-11T15:28:05Z beach: Ober: No, because it is not clear what you would like for such a conversion to do.
2017-12-11T15:28:06Z pjb: jdz: no guarantee that code-char returns a character.
2017-12-11T15:28:12Z pjb: jdz: code-char returns a predicate (char-p)
2017-12-11T15:28:50Z pjb: jdz: so it should be at the very least: (map 'string (lambda (x) (or (code-char x) #\?)) codes)
2017-12-11T15:29:49Z Ober: convert this #(159 31 191 95 191) to "there". leveldb does encoding to vector, but does not do the reverse on fetching
2017-12-11T15:29:49Z Ober:  
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2017-12-11T15:30:43Z pjb: Oh!  (defun convert (x) (when (equalp x #(159 31 191 95 191)) "there"))  (convert  #(159 31 191 95 191)) #| --> "there" |# works.
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2017-12-11T15:31:38Z _death: Ober: I use babel:string-to-octets/octets-to-string for that
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2017-12-11T15:32:13Z Ober: _death: yeah as i mentioned above, i'm using that. bombs on utf8 stuff though.
2017-12-11T15:32:58Z beach: Ober: But you never mentioned that your vector contains octets representing UTF-8-encoded characters.
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2017-12-11T15:33:10Z _death: Ober: why would it bomb?
2017-12-11T15:33:37Z jdz: pjb: for which non-unicode character code do you get NIL from CODE-CHAR?
2017-12-11T15:33:51Z Ober: because that is how it is written. Illegal :UTF-8 character starting at position 0.   [Condition of type BABEL-ENCODINGS:INVALID-UTF8-CONTINUATION-BYTE]
2017-12-11T15:33:51Z Ober:  
2017-12-11T15:33:56Z jdz: I guess there are some such characters in clisp...
2017-12-11T15:34:29Z _death: Ober: utf-8 encoded "there" => #(116 104 101 114 101) so your input is weird
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2017-12-11T15:35:28Z Ober: nothing crazy. (leveldb:put mydb "hi" "there")
2017-12-11T15:35:52Z pjb: jdz: in an implementation working with US-ASCII, any code >127 could return NIL.
2017-12-11T15:36:11Z _death: Ober: are you using my leveldb bindings or other?
2017-12-11T15:36:43Z Ober: hey pjb, have not see you at the godemiche meetup lately. good to see you still are a member though.
2017-12-11T15:37:19Z _death: (leveldb:with-open-db (db "/tmp/foo") (leveldb:puts db "hi" "there") (leveldb:gets db "hi")) => "there"
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2017-12-11T15:39:34Z Ober: _death: yes, the same.
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2017-12-11T15:40:00Z Ober: will try with that.
2017-12-11T15:40:02Z Ober: thanks
2017-12-11T15:40:58Z Ober: ahh puts/gets vs put/get
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2017-12-11T15:41:25Z Ober: (leveldb::octets-to-string (leveldb:get mydb "hi")) was causing the utf8 error btw
2017-12-11T15:42:07Z Ober: thanks _death for the help, and the package
2017-12-11T15:42:20Z _death: Ober: put and get take octet vectors, not strings
2017-12-11T15:42:50Z Ober: gotcha. makes more sense.
2017-12-11T15:43:14Z _death: Ober: I think I wrote this while working on some bitcoin code some years ago.. the blockchain was several gigs so didn't work with strings
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2017-12-11T15:44:09Z pjb: Ober: now, look what you've done: you ask a meaningless question, I asked for clarification, you further added overly specific specifications, I provided a faithful implementation, and instead of starting to think, you started to insult.
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2017-12-11T15:50:26Z ebrasca: whoman , jdz: ok
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2017-12-11T15:59:01Z Ober: _death: how did you serialize arbitrary objects into vectors for storing in leveldb?
2017-12-11T16:00:40Z pjb: implementing arbitrary methods.
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2017-12-11T16:12:18Z _death: Ober: they weren't arbitrary objects.. I suppose if you want that you can use a serialization library like cl-store
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2017-12-11T16:13:58Z Ober: yeah with a stream backend of a with-open-vector sort of thing, is what I was thinking
2017-12-11T16:14:00Z _death: Ober: then you miss some leveldb functionality, however.. for example the fact that keys are ordered
2017-12-11T16:16:56Z Ober: right. just lookign at the right hand size, values for objects tm
2017-12-11T16:16:57Z Ober: atm
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2017-12-11T16:19:52Z Ober: just trying to pickle the list object into a vector for the value.
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2017-12-11T16:23:01Z phoe: Ober: (coerce list 'vector)
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2017-12-11T16:24:32Z Ober: yeah thanks.
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2017-12-11T16:37:05Z scymtym: Xach: are you asking specifically about going back to ASDF 3.1.5 for SBCL 1.4.3?
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2017-12-11T16:54:22Z phoe: why not 3.2.0.1? I found it to be stable enough
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2017-12-11T17:38:11Z Fare: is there anything wrong with ASDF 3.3.1 ?
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2017-12-11T17:40:43Z Fare: Xach: 3.3.1 tracks staging dependencies between systems. Its granularity is the file, not the individual top-level expression. Therefore if there are multiple stages in a sin
2017-12-11T17:41:03Z Fare: gle file, that is now considered an error.
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2017-12-11T17:43:23Z dim: why did it work before, and why does it not work now?
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2017-12-11T17:52:46Z Fare: using load-system within perform is a big no-no
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2017-12-11T17:59:50Z Fare: simple-date.asd has a completely bogus method at the end that is guaranteed to not do what the author intended and derail asdf
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2017-12-11T18:01:53Z didi: Converting (values) to nil as in (null (values)) => t is a defined behavior? I want to depend on it.
2017-12-11T18:02:43Z Zhivago: Yes.
2017-12-11T18:02:47Z didi: Eer, I don't want to depend on it anymore, but the question still stands. ;-)
2017-12-11T18:02:50Z didi: Zhivago: Thank you.
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2017-12-11T18:03:40Z Fare: looks like a poor bad reinvention of asdf-system-connections, too
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2017-12-11T18:06:09Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-12-11T18:07:00Z Posterdati: please how can I determine the integer-length of an (unsigned-byte *) array? Thanks
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2017-12-11T18:11:41Z pjb: Posterdati: that doesn't make sense.  integer-length works on integers, not on arrays.
2017-12-11T18:12:18Z pjb: You could compute: (reduce '+ (make-array (reduce '* (array-dimensions array) :displaced-to array) :key 'integer-length))
2017-12-11T18:12:26Z Posterdati: yes I need element size
2017-12-11T18:12:29Z pjb: but I fail to fathom what use you could have of it.
2017-12-11T18:13:02Z pjb: (and (subtypep '(unsigned-byte *) '(integer 0))  (subtypep '(integer 0) '(unsigned-byte *))) #| --> t ; t |#
2017-12-11T18:13:27Z pjb: and obviously, the maximum integer-length for (integer 0) is ∞
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2017-12-11T18:15:21Z Posterdati: I need to convert an intger word to an array (unsigned-byte x)
2017-12-11T18:15:53Z Posterdati: for example
2017-12-11T18:15:55Z pjb: And why do you want to specify the element types?
2017-12-11T18:16:01Z pjb: Who cares about types?
2017-12-11T18:16:10Z Posterdati: #x55aa -> #(aa 55)
2017-12-11T18:16:12Z Posterdati: or
2017-12-11T18:16:36Z Posterdati: #55aa -> #(#x55 #xaa)
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2017-12-11T18:16:59Z pjb: So what's the problem?
2017-12-11T18:17:48Z Xach: Fare: what is the fix?
2017-12-11T18:17:49Z Posterdati: and I need the array to word function too
2017-12-11T18:17:51Z aeth: Posterdati: If you mean you want to cut up an integer into smaller integers, ldb is one way.
2017-12-11T18:18:07Z pjb: Posterdati: parse error.
2017-12-11T18:18:09Z Posterdati: aeth: I know ldb and dpb
2017-12-11T18:18:43Z pjb: Posterdati: http://sprunge.us/JKUh
2017-12-11T18:19:24Z pjb: (coerce (decompose-base #x55aa 256) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8))) #| --> #(170 85) |#
2017-12-11T18:19:26Z Fare: Xach: for simple-date? I'm preparing a PR right now.
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2017-12-11T18:19:45Z pjb: (compose-base (coerce #(170 85) 'list) 256) #| --> 21930 |#
2017-12-11T18:20:07Z Posterdati: pjb: I do not need how, I need a way to find the element size (in bit) of an array element
2017-12-11T18:20:21Z aeth: Posterdati: (array-element-type (make-array 42 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 32))) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32)
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2017-12-11T18:20:47Z pjb: Posterdati: like: (array-element-type (make-array 1 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 13))) #| --> (unsigned-byte 16) |#
2017-12-11T18:20:53Z Posterdati: aeth: yes, it is implementation dependant
2017-12-11T18:21:27Z pjb: Posterdati: the upgraded element type designator can be of any form, and if it's T how will you determine it?  And again what for?
2017-12-11T18:21:31Z Xach: Fare: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-11/failure-report.html has other recent issues.
2017-12-11T18:21:44Z pjb: Posterdati: It is better to use a parameter word-size (or base).
2017-12-11T18:21:52Z Fare: Xach: thanks
2017-12-11T18:21:58Z Posterdati: pjb: yes, but on sbcl it worked, not on ecl wich answer like (unsigned ext:byte8)
2017-12-11T18:22:07Z pjb: See what I mean?
2017-12-11T18:22:20Z Fare: what postmodern was guaranteed not to work, even with the old ASDF.
2017-12-11T18:22:34Z pjb: Posterdati: You're deep in implementation specific shit here.
2017-12-11T18:22:45Z Posterdati: pjb: yes, nevertheless I need a way to do that
2017-12-11T18:23:08Z pjb: (cond ((equalp type '(unsigned ext:byte8)) 8) …)
2017-12-11T18:23:20Z pjb: (cond #+ecl ((equalp type '(unsigned ext:byte8)) 8) #+ …)
2017-12-11T18:23:27Z pjb: Have fun.
2017-12-11T18:23:28Z aeth: Posterdati: The only way to make it not implementation dependent would be to (1) only support some implementations (and avoid clisp, you're doing something numerical) and (2) wrap the parts that don't work with implementation-specific things
2017-12-11T18:23:35Z Posterdati: pjb: I was thinking to apply integer-length to the maximum of array
2017-12-11T18:23:46Z Fare: it would only appear to work when you specifically loaded cl-postgres or simple-date as the toplevel request, and not otherwise.
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2017-12-11T18:24:08Z Fare: for any other user, it would have been a NOP
2017-12-11T18:24:15Z Bike: Posterdati: why do you want this?
2017-12-11T18:24:27Z Xach: Now it is a fatal error that breaks everything that uses postmodern.
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2017-12-11T18:24:37Z Xach: Whether or not you rely on simple-date working properly with it.
2017-12-11T18:24:50Z pjb: Posterdati: Right.  (reduce 'max (decompose-base 257 256) :key 'integer-length) #| --> 1 |#  so you will try to decompose into base 1?
2017-12-11T18:24:55Z Fare: Repairing the .asd files.
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2017-12-11T18:26:07Z pjb: Posterdati: 101 can be a representation in any base!  Perhaps it represents (compose-base '(1 0 1) 1000000) #| --> 1000000000001 |# !
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2017-12-11T18:28:59Z pjb: Posterdati: remember, there's always *print-base* and *read-base*!
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2017-12-11T18:32:07Z pjb: Posterdati: now, you could use a representation where the first slot of the vector would contain the maximum digit.
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2017-12-11T18:34:04Z pjb: (compose-base (subseq representation 1) (1+ (aref representation 0)))   (concatenate 'vector (vector (1- base)) (decompose-base word base))
2017-12-11T18:34:07Z pjb: (let ((representation (let ((base 256) (word #x55aa)) (concatenate 'vector (vector (1- base)) (decompose-base word base))))) (compose-base (subseq representation 1) (1+ (aref representation 0)))) #| --> 21930 |#
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2017-12-11T18:35:10Z pjb: Posterdati: but obviously, it's not that good a representation because it's O(n) to wrap and unwrap.  It would be better to use a structure with two fields.
2017-12-11T18:35:34Z pjb: Posterdati: but again, this is still silly, because in general you work only with one base, so you just keep it in a global variable.
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2017-12-11T18:43:53Z Fare: I don't know when you found these issues, but the asdf-devel mailing-list is the right place to report them.
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2017-12-11T18:46:01Z Fare: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/pull/115
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2017-12-11T18:49:57Z Posterdati: pjb: it is not desiderable to determine the size of element based on the maximum element in the array
2017-12-11T18:49:57Z Xach: I wish there was a pull request that did not also change many unrelated things.
2017-12-11T18:50:32Z jackdaniel: this PR is bogus: :depends-on ("alexandria" (:feature :ccl)) will break on CCL
2017-12-11T18:50:35Z jackdaniel: which has ASDF 3.1.5
2017-12-11T18:50:54Z Posterdati: pjb: for example #(1 2 3) -> #b011011
2017-12-11T18:50:57Z jackdaniel: and I see such thing in postmodern system (:feature :postmodern-use-mop "closer-mop")
2017-12-11T18:51:27Z Xach: jackdaniel: the (:feature ...) thing is not in 3.1.5?
2017-12-11T18:51:29Z Posterdati: pjb since size of 3 i bit is 2
2017-12-11T18:51:49Z jackdaniel: :if-feature is broken as well for ECL < 16.2.0 (due to bug in ASDF which was fixed after 3.2.0)
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2017-12-11T18:54:29Z jackdaniel: Xach: well, I've tried it in repl (I have ccl session turned on)
2017-12-11T18:54:35Z jackdaniel: and it failed
2017-12-11T18:54:46Z Xach: Ok
2017-12-11T18:54:56Z jackdaniel: ah, no
2017-12-11T18:55:01Z jackdaniel: I typed it bad in repl
2017-12-11T18:55:03Z jackdaniel: my mistake
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2017-12-11T18:59:07Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-11/failure-report/f2cl.html#fishpack looks like it may be an SBCL bug?
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2017-12-11T19:02:41Z Posterdati: Bike: I need these routine for a spi driver I wrote
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2017-12-11T19:07:53Z Fare: OK, I fixed the build of chanl, too, but not its race conditions (that at least its test suite now find)
2017-12-11T19:08:05Z pjb: Posterdati: Again, the base is not intrisic.  This is an external element, determined by convention or explicitely specified in a protocol.  So you need to use an external value bound to a separate parameter.
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2017-12-11T19:11:57Z Bike: Posterdati: and you are incapable of specifying a bit width beforehand?
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2017-12-11T19:14:27Z Posterdati: pjb: I did so
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2017-12-11T19:15:47Z Fare: Xach: I've sent a mail to asdf-devel looking for candidate maintainers to do more of that work together. If some failures are more urgent than others to address, please warn the mailing-list so we handle them first.
2017-12-11T19:16:04Z pjb: Posterdati: ok.
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2017-12-11T19:16:44Z pjb: Posterdati: often, it's even hardwired (since usually you want efficiency and it's specified on paper, so it doesn't changes willy-nilly).
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2017-12-11T19:17:25Z pjb: Posterdati: ie. instead of writing and using the functions I sprung'ed, you could write a macro that would generate efficient base conversion functions for hardwired word sizes.
2017-12-11T19:18:21Z Fare: jackdaniel, how is :feature broken on asdf 3.1.5? Works fine for me.
2017-12-11T19:18:38Z Posterdati: pjb: :)
2017-12-11T19:19:26Z jackdaniel: read follow up message
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2017-12-11T19:20:52Z Posterdati: pjb: hardware devices and common lisp did come on the opposite side :)
2017-12-11T19:21:12Z Fare: Ah, OK. For the record, I don't remember :feature or :if-feature being broken since I made them work in 2.27. They are rather simple features (unlike one of the two ASDF 1 era homonymous "feature" features, which was removed in 2.27)
2017-12-11T19:21:53Z jackdaniel: it was a problem with map-dependencies "missing" deps for some operations
2017-12-11T19:22:07Z jackdaniel: but it got fixed after 3.2.0 (maybe unintentionally) so I didn't bother to report
2017-12-11T19:22:52Z Fare: Xach: the fishpack issues smells like a bug in the sbcl register allocator, indeed.
2017-12-11T19:23:13Z jackdaniel: for normal load it worked fine, but when used with bundling op (either with delivery-op and make-build) it missed dependencies if if-feature was present (disregarding the content)
2017-12-11T19:23:51Z Fare: jackdaniel, oh. I remember touching that part of the code recently indeed, fixing issues along the way, but the details are out of cache.
2017-12-11T19:24:05Z Fare: jackdaniel, was it an upgrade bug?
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2017-12-11T19:24:46Z jackdaniel: no, I can dig up the report in ECL issues if you are really interested in it
2017-12-11T19:24:55Z Fare: I have a patch in a branch slated for 3.3.2 that fixes bugs that happen when you upgrade from e.g. ASDF 3.1.7
2017-12-11T19:25:14Z Fare: jackdaniel, not really interested if it has disappeared.
2017-12-11T19:25:45Z jackdaniel gets back to CLX test suite
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2017-12-11T19:40:41Z whoman: hey Shinmera i missed your stream. is it still available online somewhere ?
2017-12-11T19:43:03Z Shinmera: http://youtube.shinmera.com
2017-12-11T19:43:06Z jackdaniel: according to the website it is
2017-12-11T19:43:07Z Fare: Fix for f2cl build issues: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/f2cl/f2cl/merge_requests/4
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2017-12-11T19:49:48Z Posterdati: Shinmera: ps4?
2017-12-11T19:50:01Z Shinmera: Posterdati: what?
2017-12-11T19:50:27Z Posterdati: Shinmera: do you play with the ps4?
2017-12-11T19:50:31Z Shinmera: No
2017-12-11T19:51:27Z whoman: Shinmera, ty!
2017-12-11T19:53:34Z whoman: ah can't find the UI stuff
2017-12-11T19:55:03Z Shinmera: The episodes are all labelled Treehouse and have a date.
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2017-12-11T22:47:23Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: is there a way to download and unpack all projects into a directory ?
2017-12-11T22:48:33Z fe[nl]ix: I want to check if there are users of Bordeaux-threads recursive locks
2017-12-11T22:49:18Z Shinmera: There are.
2017-12-11T22:49:22Z jmercouris: You want to grep all common lisp on quicklisp?
2017-12-11T22:49:30Z jmercouris: Why don't you just search github
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2017-12-11T22:49:36Z Shinmera: github search is awful
2017-12-11T22:49:40Z Bike: have you ever tried github search
2017-12-11T22:49:43Z Bike: it blows
2017-12-11T22:49:44Z jmercouris: Yes
2017-12-11T22:49:49Z Shinmera: And does not encompass all of Quicklisp
2017-12-11T22:50:00Z jmercouris: You can use a diffrent type of API search I think to look for regex/lines of code IIRC
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2017-12-11T22:50:56Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: You can download all projects to Quicklisp's internal dist folder using: (mapc #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")))
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2017-12-11T22:52:05Z jmercouris: Here's what I was talking about: https://help.github.com/articles/searching-code/
2017-12-11T22:52:06Z fe[nl]ix: is it possible to specify a directory other than the default one ? I don't want to taint my installed systems
2017-12-11T22:52:27Z jmercouris: I think it only allows searching one repository/organization at a time but there should be a way to do it for all repositories of a specific language or something
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2017-12-11T22:52:43Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: could set up a quick separate Quicklisp directory.
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2017-12-11T22:58:14Z Shinmera: I can't see any obvious way otherwise to get it to a specific directory. ql-dist:install has no other arguments.
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2017-12-11T22:58:52Z jmercouris: You could move your current directory to a temp directory
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2017-12-11T22:59:33Z jmercouris: What do you think a good way of implementing hooks in common lisp is? (something akin to emacs hooks)
2017-12-11T22:59:51Z jmercouris: from the emacs documentation, it seems that hook is just a list of functions that get called at a given time
2017-12-11T22:59:59Z jasom: anybody have a good pattern for I want to do N things in parallel, but I must perform a side-effect on the results in-order? Right now I'm doing this, which works but is slightly convoluted: https://github.com/jasom/sqlitestore/blob/master/sqlitestore.lisp#L231
2017-12-11T23:00:04Z jmercouris: so let's say I want to have a hook after action XY
2017-12-11T23:00:26Z jmercouris: should I have a list called something like (defparameter XY-Hooks ()) and add functions to that list to invoke upon event XY?
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2017-12-11T23:00:56Z Shinmera: That's a bad idea because then you can't redefine
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2017-12-11T23:01:02Z jasom: (quick description of how it works: I create a promise for each chunk of work and push the promise onto a queue; I then have a separate task poping from the queue, forcing the promise, and performing the side-effect.
2017-12-11T23:01:20Z jmercouris: Shinmera: What do you mean by "can't redfine"?
2017-12-11T23:01:44Z Shinmera: jmercouris: If you store function objects in the list, then when you want to redefine your hook function, it won't be able to find the old one to remove it before adding the new one.
2017-12-11T23:01:50Z Shinmera: So you'd just keep on adding functions.
2017-12-11T23:02:12Z basket: You could just add their names to the list instead
2017-12-11T23:02:21Z jasom: Shinmera: use the function names solves that problems
2017-12-11T23:02:21Z Shinmera: Usually in Lisp you want to have some kind of name->definition mapping to avoid this.
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2017-12-11T23:02:33Z Shinmera: jasom: That fills the global function namespace with garbage
2017-12-11T23:02:39Z jasom: (push 'foo *xy-hooks*)
2017-12-11T23:02:46Z Shinmera: The hooks are usually not useful as standalone functions
2017-12-11T23:02:50Z jasom: Shinmera: I assumed the functions already have names?
2017-12-11T23:02:58Z jmercouris: The functions are named functions
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2017-12-11T23:03:08Z jasom: Shinmera: whether or not they are useufl as standalone functions is orthogonal to whether or not they should be named
2017-12-11T23:03:11Z basket: How does it preclude the use of packages, Shinmera?
2017-12-11T23:03:20Z jmercouris: But I don't see what the issue with (push '(lambda ()) *xy-hooks*) is
2017-12-11T23:03:32Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm not arguing against names, I'm arguing for a separate namespace.
2017-12-11T23:03:37Z jasom: Shinmera: i.e. my routing library gives each route a function name, which aids in debugging for backtraces
2017-12-11T23:03:55Z jmercouris: I guess one may not be able to remove an item from the hook without a reference to it, but that should be the problem of the user that adds that hook no?
2017-12-11T23:03:57Z basket: jmercouris: Because then it makes it difficult to change that function later. You have to find it somehow, remove it from the list, and add a new one
2017-12-11T23:04:36Z jmercouris: basket: Ok yes, in the scenario of (push 'named-func *xy-hooks*), one should be able to remove it though yes?
2017-12-11T23:04:36Z jasom: jmercouris: pushing an anonymous function makes it hard to redefine; pushing the name of a function makes it trivial.
2017-12-11T23:05:06Z basket: Yes jmercouris
2017-12-11T23:05:25Z jasom: and I disagree with Shinmera on the "polluting the function namespace issue" they are functions, they are named, ergo the function namespace is perfectly appropriate
2017-12-11T23:05:44Z jmercouris: Shinmera: When you say "redefine your hook function" do you mean, "redefine your function that is called by the hook XY"?
2017-12-11T23:05:51Z Shinmera: :shrug: I just like separate concepts separate in their namespace too.
2017-12-11T23:05:51Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2017-12-11T23:06:03Z jmercouris: lol nice bot
2017-12-11T23:06:48Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Well, when you redefine the hook, to be precise. Defining a hook usually involves creating a new function object to call.
2017-12-11T23:06:51Z jasom: jmercouris: any time you push an actual function object, e.g. (push (lambda () ...) ...) or (push #'foo () ...) it becomes difficult to locate one of those hooks later should you want to remove it or change its behavior
2017-12-11T23:07:17Z jasom: jmercouris: if you push the name of the function, you get redefinition for free, and locating it obviously becomes easier too.
2017-12-11T23:08:03Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: thanks, that works
2017-12-11T23:08:16Z jmercouris: jasom: Okay, I get the disctinction now! thanks!
2017-12-11T23:08:52Z Fare: Shinmera, calling asdf:load-system or ql:quickload from within a perform method is a big no-no
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2017-12-11T23:09:14Z Shinmera: Apparently so, I have my reasons for doing it though.
2017-12-11T23:09:16Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I was saying "define a hook" as in the creation of *xy-hook-list* and then (loop for function in *xy-hook-list* do (funcall function))
2017-12-11T23:09:23Z Shinmera: I'll elaborate in the issue ticket tomorrow.
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2017-12-11T23:09:46Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Adding a function to the hook would be just adding a hook
2017-12-11T23:09:57Z jmercouris: Maybe I'm using terminology wrong here, but I think we're on the same page
2017-12-11T23:10:03Z Fare: Shinmera, what are you trying to do???
2017-12-11T23:10:25Z Shinmera: Fare: I need to do some nasty stuff to get qt-libs to work the way it should. Anyway, as I said, I'll elaborate tomorrow. Too tired now.
2017-12-11T23:10:37Z jmercouris: Ah, good times with QT
2017-12-11T23:10:46Z jmercouris: I'm so glad I don't have to work with QT anymore
2017-12-11T23:10:50Z Fare: also, traverse-action in not a gf anymore
2017-12-11T23:10:54Z Shinmera: This has nothing to do with Qt
2017-12-11T23:11:02Z Shinmera: It's purely a lisp issue.
2017-12-11T23:11:26Z jmercouris: I don't really know anything about your issue, I'm just reminiscing on QT quality
2017-12-11T23:11:37Z Fare: is this related to there being no good way for cffi and asdf to properly declare dependencies on .so 's?
2017-12-11T23:11:45Z jmercouris: There was nothing wrong with the QT lisp system I was using, it was the QT code itself...
2017-12-11T23:12:09Z Shinmera: Fare: It's related to me needing to change how another system works, and then optionally needing to load other systems during the loading.
2017-12-11T23:12:19Z Shinmera: Anyway, tomorrow.
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2017-12-11T23:19:07Z fe[nl]ix: oh wow, there is so much duplicate code for locks and threading
2017-12-11T23:19:37Z fe[nl]ix: and even one project that copied recursive locks from BT because dependencies are scary :(
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2017-12-11T23:25:03Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: What were you intending on doing? Removing recursive locks?
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2017-12-11T23:33:15Z jasom: also recursive locks in BT are broken on sbcl
2017-12-11T23:33:42Z jasom: they only work if you use with-recursive-lock, not with the lock functions
2017-12-11T23:34:32Z Shinmera: I don't see how that's broken?
2017-12-11T23:34:39Z Shinmera: Oh wait
2017-12-11T23:34:52Z Shinmera: Ech, I shouldn't try to read things anymore at this hour, never mind me.
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2017-12-11T23:48:15Z _death: jasom: why not just pmapcar do dolist
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2017-12-11T23:48:24Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: I think it would be a good thing, but apparently lots of people use recursive locks
2017-12-11T23:50:14Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: and the only system that uses the broken acquire-recursive-lock is simple-tasks
2017-12-11T23:50:18Z fe[nl]ix: hint hint
2017-12-11T23:50:32Z Shinmera: Hooray
2017-12-11T23:51:14Z fe[nl]ix: if I could remove {acquire,release}-recursive-lock it would already be very good
2017-12-11T23:51:19Z Shinmera: That's what I get for not writing my own threads library :^)
2017-12-11T23:51:27Z fe[nl]ix: :)
2017-12-11T23:54:12Z Shinmera: I'll see if I can get rid of the acquire/release calls.
2017-12-11T23:54:15Z Shinmera: Tomorrow.
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2017-12-12T00:10:25Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: or get rid of recursive locks entirely
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2017-12-12T00:18:17Z jasom: _death: because the results (which are going out to a file) could be many gigabytes, unless I'm misunderstanding you what you suggest would keep them all in ram
2017-12-12T00:19:00Z jasom had a patch to BT that errord on acquire-recursive-lock on sbcl, not sure what happened to it
2017-12-12T00:19:31Z jasom also had a patch that implemented proper recursive locks, but that was met with ambivalence
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2017-12-12T00:21:29Z Ober: jasom: they welcomed it with open arms?
2017-12-12T00:22:26Z _death: jasom: makes sense, but you could still have syntax similar to the naive approach doing it efficiently
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2017-12-12T00:29:01Z jasom: _death: yeah, I might be able to macroize what I have now.
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2017-12-12T00:31:28Z _death: jasom: I'm thinking (dolist (promise (mapcar #'future-it-out chunks)) (write (force promise))), no need to explicitly deal with tasks and queues
2017-12-12T00:32:23Z jasom: _death: ah, that will create a lot of promises;  If we have 100GB of data and the average cunk size is ~60k what's the math on that?
2017-12-12T00:33:00Z jasom: ~2M promises.  Not sure how heavy promises are
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2017-12-12T00:36:00Z _death: jasom: right, so it could have a mapcar-like operator or some kind of dolist/mapcar operator..
2017-12-12T00:36:31Z jasom: "pipeline"
2017-12-12T00:37:34Z jasom: or scatter-gather or something
2017-12-12T00:37:39Z _death: right
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2017-12-12T00:38:28Z jasom: There are 3 parts: 1) generate work 2) do work in parallel 3) handle results in order
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2017-12-12T00:39:20Z jasom: so the form I would like is (pipeline FUNCTION-THAT-GENERATES-1-WORK-ITEM-PER-CALL FUNCTION-THAT-DOES-WORK FUNCTION-THAT-HANDLES=-RESULT)
2017-12-12T00:39:31Z jasom: though I'm open to form over function
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2017-12-12T00:41:43Z _death: maybe the fixed-capacity channel is a good abstraction here
2017-12-12T00:42:05Z jasom: oh, there's a fixed-capacity channel?
2017-12-12T00:42:15Z jasom: that would make the queue unneeded
2017-12-12T00:42:44Z jasom: oh, no that still doesn't work because you lose ordering
2017-12-12T00:42:44Z _death: no, I'm doing some wishful thinking :)
2017-12-12T00:42:58Z jasom: _death: you were right though, there is a fixed-capacity channel
2017-12-12T00:43:05Z jasom: but the queue is needed for ordering
2017-12-12T00:43:09Z _death: pipelining through a fixed-capacity channel
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2017-12-12T00:43:28Z jasom: pipelining through a fixed-capacity queue is what I'm doing
2017-12-12T00:44:06Z _death: so your pipeline function may take it as well
2017-12-12T00:44:38Z jasom: well if ordering is unneeded, a fixed-capacity channel already does what I need
2017-12-12T00:45:50Z jasom: I considered using that plus adding an index, but that's a lot more code than just using a queue
2017-12-12T00:49:27Z _death: do you really have to write it in order
2017-12-12T00:51:04Z _death: I suppose if it's stdout.. but if it's a file you don't need to
2017-12-12T00:52:08Z jasom: common usecase is pipe to tar
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2017-12-12T00:53:15Z _death: hmmm.. at this point I'm thinking about rsync and a different flow :)
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2017-12-12T01:06:37Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-releases (dist "quicklisp")))
2017-12-12T01:07:26Z Xach: I would love to have a code search for quicklisp :~(
2017-12-12T01:07:52Z Xach: I think there are huge opportunities for something better than grepping and googling. so specialized.
2017-12-12T01:08:09Z Xach: like searching only for function calls or variable bindings or what have you.
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2017-12-12T01:12:00Z _death: load all quicklisp libraries, dump and serve xref databases?
2017-12-12T01:12:24Z Xach: I'd love something like that
2017-12-12T01:13:02Z Xach: what packages does project XYZ define, what package(s) define package ABC, what functions have more than five required arguments, how many functions have &key and &optional, so many queries
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2017-12-12T01:14:16Z Xach: it's all in there
2017-12-12T01:14:17Z _death: maybe a tool to dump such information for a given image
2017-12-12T01:14:21Z Xach: yes.
2017-12-12T01:14:37Z Xach: what is the most common variable name for the stream argument in with-open-file
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2017-12-12T01:16:46Z Bike: i always thought gigamonkeys' "manifest" system, that displayed a state of the image to a browser, was really neat. i guess this would be like machine readable version. with export
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2017-12-12T01:20:12Z _death: could also be used to compare codebases on different implementations
2017-12-12T01:20:41Z Xach: Bike: right. you can't load everything in the same image, too.
2017-12-12T01:20:58Z Xach: I think an AOT manifest thing could be fun.
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2017-12-12T01:52:03Z pillton: jasom: Are you expecting the work items generated by FUNCTION-THAT-GENERATES-1-WORK-ITEM-PER-CALL to be independent work items?
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2017-12-12T01:54:39Z pillton: Some "pipelines" can be naturally represented as a tree where the nodes at a specific depth in the tree represent independent work items.
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2017-12-12T02:02:59Z jasom: pillton: the work items are independent, but the generator may be ordered; I don't recall if it is ordered in this specific use-case, but I've had similar cases in the past where it is
2017-12-12T02:04:05Z jasom: pillton: I think in this use case it is not ordered (i.e. I can generate the Nth item in O(1) time)
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2017-12-12T02:04:56Z jasom: the main thing is I have something that generates data, some work to do, and something that collects the data (which requires it be collected in-order).
2017-12-12T02:05:26Z jasom: the work is by far the most expensive part, and in this case generating the data in parallel makes no sense, since it would require locking an external resource.
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2017-12-12T02:16:38Z jasom: the other thing that e.g. unix pipelines have that I don't need in this *specific* case, but could use in other cases is backwards propagation of early termination. (i.e. I have "enough" now, so I need to tell the generator to stop)
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2017-12-12T02:24:15Z jasom: in any event, the queue of promises is at least clear and simple enough to reason about that I don't have a big complaint.
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2017-12-12T02:25:02Z eschulte: Is it possible to use ASDF build-op to build multiple binaries from a single package, or do I need to write a separate .asd file for each compiled binary?
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2017-12-12T02:27:08Z jasom: eschulte: I think the suggestion there is to have multiple systems in the same .asd
2017-12-12T02:27:20Z jasom: e.g. foo/binary1 foo/binary2
2017-12-12T02:27:38Z eschulte: ah, that's reasonable, thanks
2017-12-12T02:27:39Z jasom: if you use "/" to separate the primary name from the sub-name, then asdf will know which .asd file to look in
2017-12-12T02:27:58Z eschulte: nice, noted
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2017-12-12T02:50:38Z Fare: eschulte, yes it is possible
2017-12-12T02:50:45Z Fare: eschulte, everything is possible :-)
2017-12-12T02:51:09Z Fare: eschulte, as jasom said, you can depend on multiple secondary systems.
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2017-12-12T02:51:40Z eschulte: Fare: I just converted my asd to use multiple defsystems, and that seems to be working well
2017-12-12T02:51:48Z Fare: PROBLEM, though, is that dumping a binary, at least on SBCL, kills the current process
2017-12-12T02:52:11Z Fare: so, you'll have to tweak the build slightly to do that in a fork.
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2017-12-12T02:52:24Z Fare: maybe by using POIU
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2017-12-12T02:52:36Z Zhivago: Don't they have an option to fork-and-dump?
2017-12-12T02:52:37Z Fare: what implementation are you using?
2017-12-12T02:52:43Z eschulte: ah, that makes sense.  I think the multiple independent defsystems will work well with my current top-level Makefile driver
2017-12-12T02:52:49Z eschulte: sbcl and ccl
2017-12-12T02:53:27Z Fare: of course, ASDF can't do it in a fork by default, since fork is not portable to all systems that sbcl runs on (e.g. Windows), and fork isn't safe if you started threads already.
2017-12-12T02:53:54Z Fare: not my problem anymore. Good luck to the next ASDF maintainer.
2017-12-12T02:53:55Z pillton: eschutle: FWIW Lisp-executable has that functionality.
2017-12-12T02:54:04Z Fare: When my current branches are all merged, I'm off.
2017-12-12T02:54:30Z Fare: I don't support lisp-executable. It might even be massively broken since ASDF 3.
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2017-12-12T02:54:30Z pillton: eschutle: https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable/blob/master/lisp-executable-example.asd#L39
2017-12-12T02:55:53Z Fare: can sbcl fork on mingw64 ?
2017-12-12T02:56:16Z eschulte: Fare: congratulations on handing off to a new maintainer
2017-12-12T02:57:13Z Fare: I haven't handed off anything. There is no new maintainer to replace me. I'm just going to drop it off.
2017-12-12T02:57:33Z Fare: I mean, rpgoldman is the new maintainer, but he has even less time than I to work on it
2017-12-12T02:57:45Z Fare: and has been the new maintainer since ~2014.
2017-12-12T02:58:30Z Fare: he certainly has made ASDF more conservative and higher quality than if I were still breaking things around
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2017-12-12T03:00:00Z eschulte: that last part sounds pretty good, given that there already appears to be a good deal of functionality
2017-12-12T03:00:04Z eschulte: I've got to run, I'm excited how easy building packages with asdf has been so far though, many thanks for the tips!
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2017-12-12T03:01:04Z pillton: Fare: It works on ASDF 3.
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2017-12-12T03:18:33Z Fare: pillton, on 3.3 ?
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2017-12-12T03:19:38Z pillton: I haven't tried 3.3. It works with 3.1.5.
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2017-12-12T03:26:20Z jasom: Fare: If I haven't said it already, I appreciate how much work you've put into not just dropping it and running away.
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2017-12-12T04:11:22Z Fare: jasom, thanks :-)
2017-12-12T04:11:45Z Fare: but that won't last
2017-12-12T04:11:54Z rpg: Does anyone have a Jenkins recipe for working with quicklisp? I.e., having a module that is checked out of a repository, but goes into a quicklisp/local-projects/ for jenkins?
2017-12-12T04:12:04Z Fare: #gerbil-scheme is already my primary Lisp platform these days.
2017-12-12T04:12:56Z Fare: rpg, my apologies for merging #89 by accident :-( https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/89
2017-12-12T04:13:14Z Fare: I still believe it deserves your review, because it has future implications.
2017-12-12T04:13:39Z Fare: see notably commit message for 8e68ac229c19b7b611caf942a7f0998c88047a79
2017-12-12T04:13:53Z rpg: Fare: No problem -- it's just run through my Jenkins tests and it seems fine.  I'll take a more in-depth look, but I think the syntax control needs more concentration right now, now that I'm back from my travels
2017-12-12T04:14:05Z Fare: oh, it passed all tests.
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2017-12-12T04:15:12Z Fare: And it only affects upgrade --- and whoever besides me would have been deep enough to extend bundle classes, which I think is no one (or there would have been a lot of complaints as I kept refactoring it over the years)
2017-12-12T04:15:49Z Fare: on the other hand, extending the same fix to other more basic operation classes might be harder, if anyone used them (which I bet at least someone would).
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2017-12-12T04:16:32Z Fare: syntax-control is probably more urgent.
2017-12-12T04:16:40Z Fare: and after that --- I'm free from ASDF hacking!
2017-12-12T04:17:14Z Fare: though I'll gladly mentor a replacement... as long as the memories are still there
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2017-12-12T04:31:12Z rpg: bah! I'm going to have a glass of wine... Once more getting my bloody tests to work right is harder than getting the code under test to work right -- for reasons totally unrelated to the code under test.
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2017-12-12T04:32:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-12T04:33:16Z basket: Hello beach
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2017-12-12T04:42:35Z Fare: rpg: just pushed minor updates to TODO
2017-12-12T04:43:08Z Fare: beach: chào anh
2017-12-12T04:43:25Z beach: Hey.  What's up?
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2017-12-12T04:49:38Z Fare: lots and lots
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2017-12-12T04:50:10Z Fare: trying to recruit for various software startups... Scheme, Common Lisp, OCaml, F#
2017-12-12T04:50:42Z beach: Oh?  You are a head hunter now?
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2017-12-12T05:17:28Z Fare: kind of
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2017-12-12T05:25:14Z beach: I see.
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2017-12-12T05:53:36Z whoman: CL+ocaml is good match/mix
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2017-12-12T06:04:36Z beach: I don't believe it is good to mix languages.
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2017-12-12T06:20:11Z Fare: beach: trying to recruit for me + friends.
2017-12-12T06:20:28Z Fare: beach: I don't believe it either -- they are separate projects
2017-12-12T06:20:35Z Fare: I try to do everything in Gerbil Scheme
2017-12-12T06:20:52Z Fare: and to make Gerbil Scheme more Common Lisp like where it is lacking
2017-12-12T06:20:59Z beach: So you have a startup with a friend?
2017-12-12T06:21:07Z Fare: yes
2017-12-12T06:21:12Z beach: Nice!
2017-12-12T06:21:23Z Fare: BTW, do you have contacts in VN?
2017-12-12T06:21:43Z beach: Yes, I do.
2017-12-12T06:22:01Z beach: A French guy who does contractual software work.
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2017-12-12T06:29:47Z Zhivago: Gerbil looks nice, but unexceptional, at a glance -- what motivated the new dialect?
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2017-12-12T06:31:49Z Zhivago: (Not that I'm criticizing -- I just couldn't see the reason so far)
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2017-12-12T06:41:44Z beach: Fare: You might have mail.
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2017-12-12T07:07:51Z Ober: beach is an anh? not an ong?
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2017-12-12T07:16:12Z Ober thought he was older
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2017-12-12T07:19:40Z beach: I prefer anh.  I don't feel old.
2017-12-12T07:20:18Z Ober: :P one day... you find folks using ong. and go .wtf. when did that happen
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2017-12-12T07:20:37Z beach: Yeah, I have had that happen to me.
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2017-12-12T07:24:09Z shka: i have no idea what you are talking about :D
2017-12-12T07:24:31Z lieven: at a guess, some asian language with different pronouns for people older or younger than you :)
2017-12-12T07:25:02Z shka: this may or may not be the case!
2017-12-12T07:25:02Z lieven: kind of like you young whippersnappers should get off my lawn
2017-12-12T07:25:03Z Ober: essentially family role names used as pronouns.
2017-12-12T07:25:17Z beach: Vietnamese.
2017-12-12T07:25:31Z shka: gosh
2017-12-12T07:25:36Z shka: well good for you
2017-12-12T07:26:09Z lieven: Thai seems similar. Some of my Thai acquaintances want to find out a person's age when they first meet someone.
2017-12-12T07:27:23Z beach: It is an interesting situation of negotiation.  Things are a bit simpler for me because I am both older than most people I deal with, and I have a higher rank.
2017-12-12T07:27:59Z shka: humans are certainly peculiar…
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2017-12-12T07:36:11Z jasom: Zhivago: see the postfix to this post: https://fare.livejournal.com/188429.html
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2017-12-12T07:54:16Z loke`: How old do you have to be to be an ong?
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2017-12-12T07:55:59Z beach: Like I said, it's a matter of negotiation and of relative age, etc, etc.
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2017-12-12T08:02:06Z beach: ông: grandfather, old man, gentleman, you (used by grandchild to grandfather), I (used by grandfather to grandchild, you (used to men), he (of men over 30), husband, man, Mr.
2017-12-12T08:02:25Z beach: From my electronic dictionary.
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2017-12-12T08:03:36Z loke`: beach: Seems complicated. :-)
2017-12-12T08:03:48Z beach: But fun, too. :)
2017-12-12T08:03:58Z loke`: beach: American is easier: “Yo! dude”
2017-12-12T08:04:43Z beach: Yes, but then English has verb conjugations, tenses, etc.
2017-12-12T08:05:16Z loke`: beach: Hey! I spend my time on social media. I see no traces of such fancy languageisms there.
2017-12-12T08:05:54Z beach: I go store soon.  No have time talk here.
2017-12-12T08:05:55Z Zhivago: loke: Well, you have similar rules regarding the use of words like "mister" and "sir".
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2017-12-12T08:06:47Z beach: At Johns Hopkins, we called the teachers "Dr <last-name>".
2017-12-12T08:07:20Z loke`: beach: See? You understand now.
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2017-12-12T08:22:04Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Removed recursive lock usage from simple-tasks
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2017-12-12T08:24:40Z Ober: Error: Last argument to apply is too long:. uff. must use reduce and not apply for 6k items
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2017-12-12T08:28:20Z aeth: clisp has a call-arguments-limit of 4096. Every other implementation that I've checked is *much* higher than that, at least 60k. SBCL's is practically infinite (you'll run out of memory first)
2017-12-12T08:28:58Z Ober: aeth: lw has a limit.
2017-12-12T08:29:04Z Ober: call-arguments-limit
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2017-12-12T08:29:09Z aeth: If you're trying to be absolutely portable, 50 is the limit.
2017-12-12T08:29:20Z Ober: ok
2017-12-12T08:29:21Z aeth: LW is 4096, too?
2017-12-12T08:29:26Z Ober: checking
2017-12-12T08:29:57Z Ober: 2047 on 7.1
2017-12-12T08:30:01Z aeth: oh, wow
2017-12-12T08:30:30Z Ober: writable though, the var is.
2017-12-12T08:30:36Z Ober: or not
2017-12-12T08:30:38Z aeth: Someone needs to compile a list of the various actual limits and sizes because the minimums in the CLHS are much lower than any implementation, but some implementations still have surprisingly low numbers
2017-12-12T08:31:19Z jackdaniel: except some heavy autogenerated code, why would you need more than 50 arguments?
2017-12-12T08:31:29Z jackdaniel: 50 is absurdly high number already
2017-12-12T08:32:10Z aeth: jackdaniel: apply could be used in serialization because you can apply a plist, which would make it very convenient for serialization
2017-12-12T08:32:33Z aeth: You'd probably wind up with less than 2000, but possibly more than 50
2017-12-12T08:33:20Z aeth: (i.e. an applied plist becomes keyword arguments)
2017-12-12T08:34:37Z aeth: And yes, that would be heavily autogenerated.
2017-12-12T08:34:39Z jackdaniel: doesn't sound like a plausible use case
2017-12-12T08:34:59Z jackdaniel: either way, you can't count on more than what clhs specifies
2017-12-12T08:35:08Z jackdaniel: you never know when new implementation comes to play
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2017-12-12T08:35:36Z aeth: very useful.. (apply #'make-array 42 '(:element-type 'single-float :initial-element 42f0))
2017-12-12T08:35:40Z jackdaniel: it might be that after nuclear disaster, 2000 years from now, people will try to recreate machines capable of running program of our age
2017-12-12T08:35:57Z jackdaniel: don't make their work harder than it must be ;-)
2017-12-12T08:36:31Z aeth: jackdaniel: Someone should make a revised CLHS and only bump up the minimums for things. Or, actually, define separate 32-bit and 64-bit minimums. Iirc, a fixnum is only 16 bit as a minimum, which is tiny.
2017-12-12T08:36:43Z aeth: And very long docstrings could easily go over the 1024 size limit
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2017-12-12T08:40:09Z Ober: what is the proper way to replace if seen progn with cond? (cond ((seen ... in this case sees it as a function
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2017-12-12T08:43:17Z jackdaniel: Ober: (if test (progn ,@a) (progn ,@b)) → (cond (test ,@a) (t ,@b))
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2017-12-12T08:45:40Z Ober: thanks. I must have broke it somewhere.
2017-12-12T08:46:17Z jackdaniel: each clause cond is (test forms*), where test is arbitrary expression returning value
2017-12-12T08:46:42Z jackdaniel: if you put (seen 'foo) as test, then it will be evaluated
2017-12-12T08:46:52Z jackdaniel: (i.e function foo will be called)
2017-12-12T08:47:05Z jackdaniel: same as with test argument in IF operator
2017-12-12T08:47:42Z Ober: ok so under cond a single or double open paren before it should not confuse it. ok. must be error. lisp-critic cleanup
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2017-12-12T08:55:11Z lieven: I remember 32 bit lispworks having some really annoying limits
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2017-12-12T09:03:27Z aeth: I think Common Lisp is a language that really only works with 36 bits or more.
2017-12-12T09:07:01Z jasom: You can have 31 bit fixnums on a 32 bit machine; if you require all allocations be 8-bit aligned, that still gives you two tag bits for non-fixnums
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2017-12-12T09:25:18Z Fare: jasom: you mean 8-byte aligned.
2017-12-12T09:25:48Z Fare: And then, other types can have larger alignment, etc.
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2017-12-12T09:26:08Z Fare: and/or indirection
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2017-12-12T09:32:21Z jackdaniel: interesting fact: chicken scheme has variable number of bits for immediate types
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2017-12-12T09:34:59Z jackdaniel: there it is: http://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-data-representation.html
2017-12-12T09:35:02Z jackdaniel: very interesting blog btw
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2017-12-12T13:35:19Z myrkraverk: Is my assumption correct, that :below (foo) is only eval'd once?  In (:loop :for bar :from 0 :below (foo) ... )
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2017-12-12T13:36:37Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-12T13:37:26Z myrkraverk: Good.
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2017-12-12T13:38:07Z myrkraverk: I tried "simplifying" my code, and got rid of a variable from (sb-posix:read ...)
2017-12-12T13:38:41Z myrkraverk: And while I'm doing SBCL specfic stuff, I try not to let my guesses and tests rule the world.
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2017-12-12T13:39:24Z beach: clhs 6.1.2.1.1
2017-12-12T13:39:24Z specbot: The for-as-arithmetic subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm
2017-12-12T13:39:40Z beach: "Each expression is evaluated only once ..."
2017-12-12T13:43:54Z myrkraverk: Awesome.
2017-12-12T13:45:40Z mfiano: myrkraverk: Also note that ":from 0" is un-needed in this context.
2017-12-12T13:46:02Z myrkraverk: Ah, my code can be even simpler.
2017-12-12T13:46:47Z myrkraverk: (loop :for i :below (sb-posix:read fd (sb-sys:vector-sap buffer) (length buffer)) ... )
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2017-12-12T13:50:21Z myrkraverk: Later, I have :with v := 10 ... and then :finally (return v) ; do I need the (return v) or is there another way to specify the return value of LOOP?
2017-12-12T13:51:40Z mfiano: certain clauses imply a return value, such as the last `collect`. You can either do it as you are now, or wrap it in a let variable.
2017-12-12T13:51:41Z beach: myrkraverk: collect, sum, etc provide a return value implicitly.
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2017-12-12T13:52:05Z myrkraverk: I'm doing custom arithmetic.
2017-12-12T13:52:17Z myrkraverk: On the buffer array.
2017-12-12T13:52:47Z myrkraverk: But maybe I can wrap in in :sum.
2017-12-12T13:53:05Z mfiano: I'm sorry not the last `collect` but all.
2017-12-12T13:54:19Z myrkraverk: I don't see a way to put my custom arithmetic in a :sum.
2017-12-12T13:54:29Z myrkraverk: so I'll keep my code as is.
2017-12-12T13:54:38Z mfiano: That is a fine choice.
2017-12-12T13:54:57Z beach: myrkraverk: No need to force it if it doesn't fit your needs.  I was just answering your question.
2017-12-12T13:55:12Z myrkraverk: right, thanks
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2017-12-12T15:30:36Z warweasle: Can someone point me to a simple cl-autowrap project? Where they create the json files and then use them in their package.
2017-12-12T15:32:23Z warweasle: I meant .spec files.
2017-12-12T15:32:45Z loke`: warweasle: WHat is that?
2017-12-12T15:33:12Z warweasle: loke`: It's a quick way to make cffi bindings for C libraries.
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2017-12-12T15:33:24Z loke`: warweasle: Sounds liek a useful thing.
2017-12-12T15:33:51Z loke`: I have two CFFI-based projects on QL and I've created those binding smanually.
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2017-12-12T15:34:06Z warweasle: loke`: I have a couple too, but I want to redo them.
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2017-12-12T15:36:15Z jmercouris: This is not strictly a common lisp question, but a regex one
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2017-12-12T15:36:57Z jmercouris: I'm trying to figure out the regex to get "a string of stops salmon", and I want to find given input "st", the position of "stops" and "string"
2017-12-12T15:37:26Z jmercouris: I tried something like "\b["st"]" but I don't think that works
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2017-12-12T15:40:04Z jmercouris: I also tried \st\b but the syntax is confusing me, I got so used to emacs regex, and it keeps changing for every language
2017-12-12T15:40:19Z jmercouris: I wish there was a standardized way of writing regex
2017-12-12T15:41:27Z Bicyclidine: it kind of goes badly with the string syntax. for ppcre to see a backslash b, the lisp string would be "\\b"
2017-12-12T15:41:37Z Bicyclidine: "\b" means the b is escaped, so it's the same as "b"
2017-12-12T15:42:09Z jackdaniel: "\\b" means backslash b
2017-12-12T15:42:19Z jackdaniel: "\\\\b" is also funny
2017-12-12T15:42:30Z jackdaniel: all these are important for pathnames
2017-12-12T15:42:35Z jackdaniel: especially on windows
2017-12-12T15:42:44Z jackdaniel: and for arguments to run-program
2017-12-12T15:43:14Z loke`: jmercouris: I'm not sure I understand what you want... Do you want to match any word beginning with "st"?
2017-12-12T15:43:20Z jmercouris: loke`: correct
2017-12-12T15:43:28Z loke`: jmercouris: That's pretty easy
2017-12-12T15:44:32Z Bicyclidine: (ppcre:all-matches "\\bst" "a string of stops salmon") => (2 4 12 14)
2017-12-12T15:44:40Z rumbler31: there was a blog post on making this suck less in emacs
2017-12-12T15:44:59Z loke`: jmercouris: Use this: "\\W(st\w+)"
2017-12-12T15:45:07Z jdz: cl-ppcre also supports the symbolic notation.
2017-12-12T15:45:14Z loke`: Oops
2017-12-12T15:45:19Z loke`: jmercouris: Use this: "\\W(st\\w+)"
2017-12-12T15:45:34Z warweasle: In cl-autowrap, Am I supposed to export it's functions directly or are they just thin wrappers around the library?
2017-12-12T15:45:35Z jmercouris: I'll give it a try, thank you all for your help
2017-12-12T15:46:09Z jdz: (ppcre:scan-to-strings '(:sequence :word-boundary "st") your-string)
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2017-12-12T15:46:39Z rumbler31: https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/re-builder-interactive-regexp-builder
2017-12-12T15:47:03Z loke`: jdz: He wants to cover the entire word, yes? So he needs \w+ after
2017-12-12T15:47:06Z rumbler31: ^ talks about adding emacs settings that make some of the pain go away, and explain what's going on
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2017-12-12T15:50:14Z jmercouris: rumbler31: I dont necessarily want the word, just the index of the word
2017-12-12T15:50:28Z jdz: jmercouris: you can also do (ppcre:parse-string "\\W(st\w+)") to see if it does what you expect.
2017-12-12T15:50:56Z jdz: Which should immediately highlight any escaping problems.
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2017-12-12T15:51:27Z jmercouris: jdz: I'm not using ppcre, but maybe I'll install it for this
2017-12-12T15:52:12Z Bicyclidine: wait, what were you using then?
2017-12-12T15:52:13Z jdz: Back in the day Edi had the regexp-coach (that used cl-ppcre) GUI application.  Not sure it is still ovailable.
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2017-12-12T15:52:24Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: cl-string-match
2017-12-12T15:52:53Z Bicyclidine: "A simple backtracking regular expressions engine" oh no
2017-12-12T15:52:56Z dim: jdz: there must be half a dozen websites doing that, right?
2017-12-12T15:53:15Z jdz: dim: sure, and there is also M-x regexp-builder
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2017-12-12T15:53:44Z dim: https://regexr.com seems to be one of them
2017-12-12T15:54:17Z jdz: Back in the day I don't remember any websites doing it, probably because JavaScript was not cross-browser.
2017-12-12T15:54:41Z dim: yeah, same, but the year is now 2017 ;-)
2017-12-12T15:54:58Z dim: (won't be that for very long, too)
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2017-12-12T16:48:54Z Xach: mfiano: gamebox-grids doesn't build for me today - macro-looking problem
2017-12-12T16:49:04Z Xach: mfiano: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-12/failure-report/gamebox-grids.html#gamebox-grids has a log
2017-12-12T16:49:52Z mfiano: Xach: Thanks, I see the problem and I can push a fix in a couple hours.
2017-12-12T16:50:18Z Xach: mfiano: is it in a supporting library?
2017-12-12T16:50:32Z mfiano: Yes, gamebox-math changed it's API considerably.
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2017-12-12T16:51:28Z Xach: you should scold the author thoroughly
2017-12-12T16:52:20Z mfiano: Indeed, I should remember that I have old libraries in Quicklisp that even I don't use anymore, but I should still maintain them!
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2017-12-12T16:53:46Z jackdaniel: Xach: is it easy for you to test if changes doesn't break something before merging them to main branch?
2017-12-12T16:53:53Z jackdaniel: I have this PR against CLX: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/87
2017-12-12T16:54:11Z jackdaniel: which comes from develop branch and it enables bunch of extensions which I hopefully fixed (at least from the compilation perspective)
2017-12-12T16:54:20Z Xach: jackdaniel: somewhat easy to try it
2017-12-12T16:54:58Z jackdaniel: I would appreciate it a lot, because I remember that last time I've touched these parts I've caused a regression
2017-12-12T16:55:50Z Xach: jackdaniel: are there runtime tests i could try?
2017-12-12T16:56:10Z Xach: for clx i worry that a successful build is only half the battle
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2017-12-12T16:56:38Z jackdaniel: sure, I've added Display tests (activated with asdf:test-system). but for "visual" stuff you want clx/demo system – note that many demos there didn't work before PR
2017-12-12T16:56:49Z jackdaniel: I've tested changes with McCLIM on ECL, CCL and SBCL
2017-12-12T16:57:10Z Xach: how about stumpwm?
2017-12-12T16:57:26Z jackdaniel: and it worked fine (even better for CCL, because previously it didn't work with CLX when loaded from outside software/)
2017-12-12T16:57:31Z jackdaniel: I haven't
2017-12-12T16:57:56Z jackdaniel: I once tried to run stumpwm, but failed miserably (that was a few years ago)
2017-12-12T16:58:15Z Xach: at least it wasn't a few minutes ago, with your new branch!
2017-12-12T16:59:05Z jackdaniel: hm, I'll install xephyr then and try to debug. thank you
2017-12-12T17:01:47Z jackdaniel: Xach: it started for me from SBCL without a problem
2017-12-12T17:05:24Z jackdaniel: (proof: http://hellsgate.pl/files/27e157a9)
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2017-12-12T17:22:42Z Fade: I use stumpwm
2017-12-12T17:23:04Z Fade: I could test.
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2017-12-12T17:24:11Z jackdaniel: cool
2017-12-12T17:24:18Z jackdaniel: Fade: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/tree/develop this branch
2017-12-12T17:24:49Z jackdaniel:  /develop/
2017-12-12T17:25:13Z Fade: give me a few minutes
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2017-12-12T17:25:39Z jackdaniel: no rush, I'm finishing now my older PR with mapping-notify
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2017-12-12T17:33:23Z Fade: well, stump builds clean.
2017-12-12T17:33:29Z Fade: I'll restart my session in a bit.
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2017-12-12T17:44:19Z Fade: my environment starts up, with no visible regression.
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2017-12-12T17:47:42Z jackdaniel: thank you
2017-12-12T17:47:58Z jackdaniel: Xach: do you have more details how it fails on your host?
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2017-12-12T18:34:00Z emaczen: how do I enforce a form to be accessible by only one thread at a time in terms of bordeaux threads?
2017-12-12T18:35:32Z shka: emaczen: use lock
2017-12-12T18:35:50Z shka: with-lock-held is a macro that ensures safety
2017-12-12T18:36:09Z shka: but basicly posix style mutexes
2017-12-12T18:37:36Z shka: emaczen: clear enough?
2017-12-12T18:38:30Z emaczen: shka: I think, I'm not that familiar with concurrency in general, but I understand the concept
2017-12-12T18:38:47Z shka: i see
2017-12-12T18:39:08Z shka: anyway, nothing fancy here
2017-12-12T18:39:19Z shka: BT is low (system) level system
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2017-12-12T18:40:18Z shka: it offers basic stuff that can be used to build more complex logic
2017-12-12T18:40:43Z emaczen: Why do I have to create a lock here? Can't bt determine that entry into the form is what needs to be controlled?
2017-12-12T18:41:02Z shka: it can't
2017-12-12T18:41:17Z shka: anyway
2017-12-12T18:41:18Z shka: you don't control form
2017-12-12T18:41:30Z shka: you control access to variables
2017-12-12T18:41:53Z shka: you don't care about access to (+ 2 2)
2017-12-12T18:42:09Z emaczen: So you make locks around variables?
2017-12-12T18:42:21Z shka: but you care a lot about (incf a 2)
2017-12-12T18:42:32Z shka: more often then not, yes
2017-12-12T18:42:49Z emaczen: shka: Ok, I think I got it
2017-12-12T18:43:34Z shka: great
2017-12-12T18:45:08Z shka: von neuman machines are not all that lispy ;-)
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2017-12-12T18:50:29Z emaczen: shka: is there a good mechanism for controlling forms? Is that desirable in lisp?
2017-12-12T18:50:40Z emaczen: emaczen: that is just kind of how I was thinking about it
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2017-12-12T18:51:55Z shka: emaczen: you don't want to control evaluation of forms, you want to control memory access
2017-12-12T18:52:13Z shka: that's one level below
2017-12-12T18:53:00Z shka: and with-lock-held is ok
2017-12-12T18:53:25Z shka: on sbcl, it will even error out when recursive lock will be performed
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2017-12-12T18:53:29Z shka: which is just great
2017-12-12T18:53:46Z shka: and saves a lot of time sometimes
2017-12-12T18:54:48Z emaczen: where exactly do you place your locks? I have a form which calls a function #'add-row which mutates a table, which is what I need to lock.
2017-12-12T18:55:00Z emaczen: err nvm
2017-12-12T18:55:10Z emaczen: Where do you place the bt:with-lock-held is what I meant
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2017-12-12T18:56:42Z shka: above setf!
2017-12-12T18:56:52Z shka: or aref
2017-12-12T18:57:00Z emaczen: Above code that calls setf?
2017-12-12T18:57:02Z shka: anyway, above access to memory
2017-12-12T18:57:35Z shka: (with-lock-held (lock) (aref a i j) (setf (aref a i j) 5))
2017-12-12T18:57:50Z shka: nothing related to lisp directly
2017-12-12T18:57:56Z shka: ok, got to go
2017-12-12T18:58:04Z shka: you will figure this out on your own
2017-12-12T18:58:18Z lisp_guest: emaczen: you want to scynchronize access to data, not code
2017-12-12T18:58:25Z emaczen: shka: thanks
2017-12-12T18:58:43Z lisp_guest: you place locks around code that works on data that's shared between threads
2017-12-12T18:59:30Z lisp_guest: the fundamental problem you want to avoid is basically 2 or more threads partying on the same memory at the same time
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2017-12-12T19:00:42Z emaczen: how do I control a loop variable? (loop for var in vars do (bt:make-thread (lambda () ...)))
2017-12-12T19:00:47Z shka: emaczen: also, it is sometimes possible to avoid placing locks by using other guarantees of exclusive memory write
2017-12-12T19:01:09Z lisp_guest: emaczen: why would you control the loop variable?
2017-12-12T19:01:13Z shka: emaczen: establish new lexical env around make thread
2017-12-12T19:01:34Z shka: (loop for var in vars do (let ((var var)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () ...))
2017-12-12T19:01:54Z lisp_guest: shka: why would that be required? doesn't loop itself create a lexical binding?
2017-12-12T19:02:32Z shka: lisp_guest: loop establishes lexical envs just one, then it mutates bindings in it
2017-12-12T19:02:43Z shka: establishing separate env, will prevent inner var value from being changed by loop
2017-12-12T19:02:57Z lisp_guest: right, but it does so for every evaluation of LOOP
2017-12-12T19:03:17Z shka: exactly
2017-12-12T19:03:32Z shka: anyway, writing code like the above is not good idea
2017-12-12T19:03:50Z shka: if vars is very long, you will end up degrading performance!
2017-12-12T19:03:56Z shka: use lparallel and pmap
2017-12-12T19:04:47Z lisp_guest: hm, how does multithreading in lisp even work? i would expect every thread to have its own lexical bindings
2017-12-12T19:04:59Z jasom: lisp_guest: every thread also has its own dynamic bindings
2017-12-12T19:05:18Z lisp_guest: so how do you share data between threads?
2017-12-12T19:05:18Z jasom: lisp_guest: this is a de-facto standard (I think all implementations that implement threads do it), not part of the spec
2017-12-12T19:05:28Z jasom: lisp_guest: assignments are shared, bindings are not
2017-12-12T19:06:06Z jasom: lisp_guest: but ideally you don't share data between threads implicity anyways
2017-12-12T19:06:17Z lisp_guest: hm right, but in order to assign to something i need to have a binding first
2017-12-12T19:06:29Z lisp_guest: so if thread #1 has *var*, how does #2 assign to #1's *var*?
2017-12-12T19:06:46Z jasom: lisp_guest: defvar *assigns* not binds
2017-12-12T19:07:06Z jasom: (defvar *foo*) ... (setf *foo* 'bar)
2017-12-12T19:08:09Z jasom: If you are going to use threads, I highly recommend something like lparallel; if you type the word "mutex" enough times, you are going to have bugs.
2017-12-12T19:08:27Z lisp_guest: indeed, but understanding the fundamentals first is always good
2017-12-12T19:08:55Z lisp_guest: what do you mean by assigns though? doesn't DEFVAR create a dynamic binding?
2017-12-12T19:09:01Z jasom: lisp_guest: nope
2017-12-12T19:09:19Z jasom: it establishes a variable as special in the global scope.
2017-12-12T19:09:36Z lisp_guest: hm right, i was equating that with "making a binding"
2017-12-12T19:09:41Z lisp_guest: but a special variable can be unbound
2017-12-12T19:09:44Z jasom: If there is an optional value provided, it *assigns* not *binds*
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2017-12-12T19:10:38Z jasom: that's because "bound" is used to mean "has a value" which is slightly different from "establishes a binding" because english doesn't have enough words...
2017-12-12T19:10:50Z shka: well, using mutex is that difficult on it's own, but there is much more required to implement efficient parallel program so if you are not using lparallel, you are wasting time
2017-12-12T19:11:04Z shka: *is not that
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2017-12-12T19:11:21Z shka: that's even true for the code above
2017-12-12T19:11:25Z jasom: shka: I strongly disagree with "is not that difficult"
2017-12-12T19:11:50Z shka: you can't just create one thread for each value in list!
2017-12-12T19:12:07Z shka: you don't want to have 10 000 threads
2017-12-12T19:12:14Z shka: you really don't
2017-12-12T19:12:23Z shka: and lparallel can take care of that for you
2017-12-12T19:12:34Z jasom: manually managing acesses to mutable shared state is futile in any non-trivial program.
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2017-12-12T19:13:12Z shka: also, lparallel has a lot more to often
2017-12-12T19:13:16Z shka: *offer
2017-12-12T19:13:34Z shka: plet, psort, ptree
2017-12-12T19:13:42Z jasom: I love lparallel because I can write my program sequentially, profile, and sprinkle in some parallel fairy-dust with almost zero effort
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2017-12-12T19:13:54Z lisp_guest: jasom: oh, i'm not sure why i was confused. so DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER act as if calling setf when setting the value, right?
2017-12-12T19:14:07Z jasom: lisp_guest: correct, it acts as SETF, not as LET
2017-12-12T19:14:26Z shka: at this point i think that not using lparallel for parallel programming is a waste of time :P
2017-12-12T19:14:27Z jackdaniel: lisp_guest: try typing one after another (defvar *foo* 3) (defvar *foo* 4) *foo*
2017-12-12T19:14:31Z lisp_guest: right. but i didn't mention DEFVAR anywhere above
2017-12-12T19:14:42Z jackdaniel: and (defparameter *bar* 3) (defparameter *bar* 4) *bar*
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2017-12-12T19:14:59Z lisp_guest: when you said that threads have their own bindings
2017-12-12T19:15:14Z jasom: lisp_guest: SETF on a special modifies the outtermost dynamic binding of it.  If that binding was established in the current thread, it is invisible to all outer threads
2017-12-12T19:15:25Z shka: lisp_guest: assigments!
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2017-12-12T19:15:47Z lisp_guest: established by way of let i suppose jasom ?
2017-12-12T19:15:52Z lisp_guest: LET
2017-12-12T19:16:02Z jasom: (let ((*foo* 1)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (setf *foo*))) (sleep 3) *foo*)
2017-12-12T19:16:10Z jasom: (let ((*foo* 1)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (setf *foo*2 ))) (sleep 3) *foo*)
2017-12-12T19:16:15Z jasom: (let ((*foo* 1)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (setf *foo* 2))) (sleep 3) *foo*)
2017-12-12T19:16:23Z jasom: (sorry, cant tpye today)
2017-12-12T19:16:48Z shka: i can't type period so that's ok
2017-12-12T19:17:02Z shka: :-)
2017-12-12T19:17:03Z jasom: contrast with: (let ((*foo* 1)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* 2)) (sleep 10))) (sleep 3) *foo*)
2017-12-12T19:17:11Z lisp_guest: right. so if you don't rebind them, then *var* means the same thing in #1 and #2?
2017-12-12T19:17:20Z jasom: lisp_guest: yes
2017-12-12T19:17:22Z lisp_guest: i thought there was some invisible namespacing because of the way you put it at first
2017-12-12T19:17:25Z jasom: and if you do, then they are thread local
2017-12-12T19:17:30Z lisp_guest: right, exactly
2017-12-12T19:18:02Z lisp_guest: so then, synchronizing a LOOP variable is not required
2017-12-12T19:18:04Z jasom: and most threading libraries (including lparallel) let you setup variables that will get bound implicity on task creation, thus making them thread local.  I use this e.g. for giving each thread a database connection.
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2017-12-12T19:18:25Z jasom: lisp_guest: I think LOOP always establishes new bindings, so yes.
2017-12-12T19:18:35Z jasom: and it will work even if the loop variable is special.
2017-12-12T19:19:07Z lisp_guest: mhm, although, using special variables for loop counters is kinda weird, no?
2017-12-12T19:19:21Z jasom: lexical bindings are lexical.  The lexical scope is unaffected by threading
2017-12-12T19:19:24Z lisp_guest: well, i guess you don't always need just counters
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2017-12-12T19:19:46Z lisp_guest: might want to loop over something global for some reason
2017-12-12T19:20:01Z jasom: (let ((x 1)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (print x)))) <== does what you would expect.
2017-12-12T19:20:15Z lisp_guest: mhm
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2017-12-12T19:23:14Z jasom: so you can also use lexical bindings to communicate beween threads.  But really, use a queue or a mailbox or something higher level than a shared variable for signalling.
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2017-12-12T19:23:35Z shka: lparallel has queue
2017-12-12T19:23:47Z shka: cross platform, ok performance
2017-12-12T19:23:53Z shka: use it, it is good
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2017-12-12T19:24:05Z jasom: shka: I'm well aware.  I use queues of promises to ensure that I can collect the work of decompressing chunks of data in order to the output stream
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2017-12-12T19:24:33Z shka: jasom: i thought so ;-)
2017-12-12T19:24:37Z lisp_guest: jasom: when you said "does what you would expect", you were thinking of that it creates a closure and that every thread will have x bound to the same object, right?
2017-12-12T19:25:00Z jasom: lisp_guest: correct.  The only thing that matters for lexical bindings is where it is in the source code.
2017-12-12T19:25:08Z lisp_guest: yup
2017-12-12T19:25:14Z jasom: from the latin for "text"
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2017-12-12T19:25:33Z jasom: which comes from Greek apparently
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2017-12-12T19:27:24Z lisp_guest: does anyone know why i'm getting this error when trying to use SSL with Drakma (GET-ing an https url)
2017-12-12T19:27:27Z lisp_guest: The alien function "CRYPTO_num_locks" is undefined.
2017-12-12T19:27:29Z lisp_guest:    [Condition of type SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR]
2017-12-12T19:27:45Z jasom: lisp_guest: sounds like it needs to load an external library
2017-12-12T19:28:05Z jasom: ah, it's apparently been deprecated in openssl
2017-12-12T19:28:16Z jasom: perhaps it got removed? Try forcing it to load an older version of openssl.
2017-12-12T19:29:20Z lisp_guest: is that an option within drakma or?
2017-12-12T19:29:35Z jasom: it will probably involve changing the code (M-. is your friend)
2017-12-12T19:29:55Z jasom: I don't use drakma, so can't help you there :(
2017-12-12T19:30:15Z jasom: lisp_guest: you can also check if there have been any updates to drakma since the version you have installed
2017-12-12T19:30:55Z lisp_guest: hm i guess. i'm only getting into doing HTTP with CL and have seen that drakma is what most poeple use
2017-12-12T19:31:01Z lisp_guest: is there something else you would recommend?
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2017-12-12T19:32:59Z jasom: My http on CL is all server-side, I don't know that I've ever made an HTTP request from CL.
2017-12-12T19:35:23Z lisp_guest: i've found this and the guy has the exact same problem https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2017-05/lisp-2017.05.06.txt :-)
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2017-12-12T19:35:49Z lisp_guest: looks like it might be due to cl+ssl
2017-12-12T19:36:37Z jasom: lisp_guest: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/43
2017-12-12T19:37:04Z jasom: apparently just installing the right version of openssl works
2017-12-12T19:37:18Z lisp_guest: yeah, hah, i'll try that now
2017-12-12T19:38:05Z lisp_guest: how can i check which version of a package i have through quicklisp?
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2017-12-12T19:38:35Z jasom: lisp_guest: I usually just M-. and then see the name of the directory (ql puts the version string in the pathname of the source)
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2017-12-12T19:38:57Z lisp_guest: jasom: what's M-. for you? dired?
2017-12-12T19:39:09Z jasom: lisp_guest: "jump to definition" in slime
2017-12-12T19:39:24Z lisp_guest: oh, and then you inspect the dir name, got it
2017-12-12T19:41:01Z lisp_guest: huh, but cl+ssl has this in its ASDF file, "(defsystem :openssl-1.1.0 ...)"
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2017-12-12T19:44:55Z jasom: well I would just check which openssl packages are available and ensure they are installed...
2017-12-12T19:45:25Z jasom: a lot of foreign library definitions are ... not great defaults...
2017-12-12T19:46:00Z jasom: This is largely due to DLLs being inherently broken, but still...
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2017-12-12T19:49:49Z lisp_guest: i have version OpenSSL 1.1.0 installed though. not sure why i would have to downgrade when the CL+SSL package i have seems to use OpenSSL 1.1.0
2017-12-12T19:52:18Z lisp_guest: hah wow, changing my libssl.so symlink to version 1.0 instead (which i also have installed) fixes it
2017-12-12T19:52:31Z lisp_guest: why the heck does it advertise as using 1.1.0 then
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2017-12-12T19:53:21Z lisp_guest: but now i might break other stuff on my pc that relies on 1.1.0
2017-12-12T19:53:24Z lisp_guest: ugh
2017-12-12T19:54:37Z Bicyclidine: i think the cl+ssl system doesn't use the 1.1.0 system.
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2017-12-12T20:05:01Z jasom: If you edit the library search path to load a more version-qualified openssl, it should work and you can undo the link change.  Submit a patch upstream as well, reporting which distro you are using.
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2017-12-12T20:11:17Z lisp_guest: jasom: i'm very new to lisp (and especially system/package management). where exactly is this library search path?
2017-12-12T20:11:37Z jasom: lisp_guest: look for define foreign library
2017-12-12T20:11:58Z jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html
2017-12-12T20:12:23Z lisp_guest: ok. i just opened up ffi-1.1.0.lisp from cl+ssl btw, they only define 2 new functions which were added
2017-12-12T20:12:54Z lisp_guest: which makes sense i guess, the real issue is in loading version 1.1.0 when 1.0 is expected by drakma
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2017-12-12T20:15:50Z lisp_guest: jasom: found it, nice :-)
2017-12-12T20:16:40Z jasom: my guess is that early versions of 1.1 deprecated, but did not remove the function, so it "worked on the developers machine at the time"
2017-12-12T20:16:52Z jasom: but that's just a supposition.  either way it needs to be fixed...
2017-12-12T20:17:55Z lisp_guest: looks like my version is "1.0.2m", while the closest one in cl+ssl is "1.0.2", i.e. without the "m"
2017-12-12T20:17:59Z lisp_guest: let's see if it works
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2017-12-12T20:18:32Z lisp_guest: jasom: does doing (ql:quickload '#:cl+ssl) reload the system if i changed the file?
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2017-12-12T20:19:57Z jasom: lisp_guest: I don't know; (asdf:load-system "cl+ssl") definitely wil reload the system, but it may or may not force reloading of the library depending on how cl+ssl defined its dependencies
2017-12-12T20:20:26Z lisp_guest: ah, i see. i just restarted the whole interpreter
2017-12-12T20:20:33Z lisp_guest: seems to work!
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2017-12-12T20:45:08Z lisp_guest: jasom: made a pull request :-)
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2017-12-12T20:49:34Z alandipert: is it possible to specify which "version" of quicklisp to use when resolving packages? i understand that the set of packages available on quicklisp are versioned together, and that this set changes over time. i am interested in specifying former versions in code so i can know that the code will continue to work the same way even if packages it pull
2017-12-12T20:49:35Z alandipert: ed from quicklisp change
2017-12-12T20:50:07Z jasom: alandipert: yes, there is a blog article on how to do so
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2017-12-12T20:52:48Z alandipert: jasom thanks, found it
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2017-12-12T21:02:35Z KZiemian: hello world
2017-12-12T21:02:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-12-12T21:02:43Z KZiemian: I have a question
2017-12-12T21:02:48Z shka: ask it
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2017-12-12T21:02:50Z KZiemian: in Practical Common Lisp
2017-12-12T21:03:08Z KZiemian: in chapter on conditions and handlers
2017-12-12T21:03:19Z KZiemian: it said that
2017-12-12T21:03:45Z KZiemian: that errors are not descend of standard-object
2017-12-12T21:03:50Z KZiemian: from historical reason
2017-12-12T21:03:58Z shka: yup
2017-12-12T21:04:07Z KZiemian: and some method like slot-initialize
2017-12-12T21:04:13Z KZiemian: don't work on them
2017-12-12T21:04:19Z shka: yes
2017-12-12T21:04:30Z KZiemian: I just wonder
2017-12-12T21:04:32Z shka: that's right
2017-12-12T21:05:12Z KZiemian: making errors being subclass of standard-object can make programs esier?
2017-12-12T21:05:22Z KZiemian: becuse it is lokk
2017-12-12T21:05:23Z jasom: they are objects, just not necessarily standard-object
2017-12-12T21:05:43Z KZiemian: in CL everything is object with common root T
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2017-12-12T21:06:16Z shka: KZiemian: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/t_std_ob.htm
2017-12-12T21:06:31Z shka: thing is
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2017-12-12T21:06:38Z shka: it is not about superclass
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2017-12-12T21:06:52Z pjb: They may be subclasses of standard-object. But since they are not in all implementations, you cannot depend on that.
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2017-12-12T21:07:04Z jmercouris: Is there a way to make M-q indent with spaces only? Is there an advantage to doing so? (please note, I am not trying to start a tabs vs spaces flame war)
2017-12-12T21:07:23Z KZiemian: pbj: you are right PCL write about it somewhere
2017-12-12T21:07:29Z pjb: Note: in Abcl, ccl, clisp, ecl, ERROR is a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECTS ; in sbcl not.
2017-12-12T21:07:35Z shka: jmercouris: why not define spaces globally in whole emacs?
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2017-12-12T21:08:36Z pjb: jmercouris: sure. Just configure emacs to use spaces instead of tabs. There are ton of howto pages on the subject.
2017-12-12T21:08:45Z KZiemian: pbj: I think that standard say that they shouldnt be subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT
2017-12-12T21:08:47Z jasom: jmercouris: I'm pretty sure M-q just uses emacs's tabs/space settings
2017-12-12T21:08:51Z jmercouris: I've only setup the config of that for python
2017-12-12T21:08:57Z pjb: KZiemian: This is what I am saying!
2017-12-12T21:08:58Z jmercouris: it was handled by my package
2017-12-12T21:09:03Z jasom: KZiemian: the standard says that they are not guaranteed to be sublcass of standard-object
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2017-12-12T21:09:19Z jmercouris: So, is there a disadvantage to indenting with spaces in emacs? or should I be okay with it?
2017-12-12T21:09:34Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about changing this from the defaults, and that makes me a little nervous
2017-12-12T21:09:47Z jmercouris: because of this PR: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/pull/36
2017-12-12T21:09:51Z jasom: jmercouris: it's not the default, which means it's not the majority, but other than that it's fine.  I prefer it...
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2017-12-12T21:10:39Z KZiemian: pbj: I just thinking which way is better or they more or less equal?
2017-12-12T21:11:01Z KZiemian: pbj: I normaly work in SBCL
2017-12-12T21:11:11Z Bicyclidine: condition types being fully integrated with clos would be nice.
2017-12-12T21:11:18Z pjb: For you as a CL programmer, ther eis no better way, you must consider that conditions are not standard-object.
2017-12-12T21:11:24Z KZiemian: pbj: but for the working on CLUS I started to use CCL
2017-12-12T21:11:27Z pjb: For you as a CL implementer, you can do however you prefer.
2017-12-12T21:11:35Z jasom: KZiemian: yes it would be better, but it is what it is
2017-12-12T21:11:36Z Bicyclidine: jmercouris: indenting with spaces is fine.
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2017-12-12T21:11:46Z pjb: If you're a CL implementer, I would say it is easier to just define conditions with defclass.
2017-12-12T21:11:54Z pjb: Just like structures.
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2017-12-12T21:12:16Z shka: good night
2017-12-12T21:12:18Z jasom: CL is necessarily imperfect; this particular imperfection has rarely affected me
2017-12-12T21:12:36Z pjb: KZiemian: But as a CL implementer you may want to provide more speed, or consider other constraints when creating and processing conditions, which may motivate you to implement them differently.
2017-12-12T21:12:36Z Bicyclidine: it's probably also not necessary :p
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2017-12-12T21:12:54Z jmercouris: jasom: Ok, then, sounds good
2017-12-12T21:13:14Z jmercouris: Bicyclidine: Thank you for your opinion, I'll update my emacs config then
2017-12-12T21:13:28Z pjb: KZiemian: are you an implementer?
2017-12-12T21:13:35Z pjb: KZiemian: are you writing a new implementation?
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2017-12-12T21:13:56Z KZiemian: pbj: no, at least not now :)
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2017-12-12T21:14:11Z KZiemian: pbj: I just try to learn condition system
2017-12-12T21:14:16Z pjb: Then conditions are not subclasses of standard-object.
2017-12-12T21:14:32Z KZiemian: pbj: and that solution look unnatural to me
2017-12-12T21:14:45Z Bicyclidine: i can't think of any constraints on conditions that would really be helpful to an implementer
2017-12-12T21:15:15Z pjb: Bicyclidine: OUT-OF-MEMORY  UNIX-SIGNAL
2017-12-12T21:15:31Z pjb: Bicyclidine: again, you may want to provide speed.
2017-12-12T21:15:36Z KZiemian: pbj: I just wonder is my feeling right or not
2017-12-12T21:15:47Z pjb: Bicyclidine: just have a look at sbcl.
2017-12-12T21:15:54Z KZiemian: pbj: now I working just on CLUS
2017-12-12T21:16:15Z KZiemian: pbj: and have enough question about it
2017-12-12T21:16:33Z KZiemian: pbj: bad words, not question but rather riddels to solve
2017-12-12T21:16:59Z Bicyclidine: in sbcl conditions are "slot-objects", which standard objects also are. that class provides most of the guts, like the initialize methods and shit
2017-12-12T21:18:43Z KZiemian: my true problem now is that
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2017-12-12T21:19:16Z KZiemian: M
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2017-12-12T21:19:34Z KZiemian: I should take CLHS page with GENSYM
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2017-12-12T21:19:51Z KZiemian: and write ccldoc code to transform it in some nice webpage
2017-12-12T21:20:34Z KZiemian: I now more or less can write ccldoc file that make html of that page
2017-12-12T21:20:43Z KZiemian: but man, that page looks ugly
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2017-12-12T21:21:47Z KZiemian: one thing, my knowledge of ccldoc is medicore
2017-12-12T21:22:04Z KZiemian: or even lower
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2017-12-12T21:23:27Z jasom: KZiemian: note that it is technically illegal to work from the CLHS, you should work from the TeX sources of the draft specification...
2017-12-12T21:23:47Z jasom: CLHS has copyright owned by lispworks
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2017-12-12T21:25:59Z jmercouris: Still waiting on that ultrapsec...
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2017-12-12T21:26:14Z jmercouris: s/ultrapsec/ultrapsec
2017-12-12T21:26:20Z jmercouris: damnit, I think I might have dyslexia
2017-12-12T21:26:52Z KZiemian: jasom: ohh, yes
2017-12-12T21:26:55Z KZiemian: jasom
2017-12-12T21:27:09Z KZiemian: jasom: I forgot about this discussion
2017-12-12T21:27:19Z KZiemian: jasom: to much legal term to me
2017-12-12T21:28:16Z KZiemian: jasom: I should go to the draft specyfication or to CLUS resources
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2017-12-12T21:30:54Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I do what I can do end my part in this
2017-12-12T21:33:57Z KZiemian: jmercouris: now I try to learn enough ccldoc to rewrite CLUS page in that
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2017-12-12T21:35:05Z KZiemian: jmercouris: but after that my knowledge will be not suffiecent to make progres alone
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2017-12-12T21:35:20Z KZiemian: jmercouris: bigger discussion will be needed
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2017-12-12T21:36:28Z jmercouris: KZiemian: Are you the project leader? Do you need someone to edit stuff? any ways I can tangibly contribute?
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2017-12-12T21:42:27Z KZiemian: jmercouris: project leader is phoe, but in some strange twist of fate, I think that probing ccldoc was left to me as subproject
2017-12-12T21:43:11Z KZiemian: jmercouris: we and phoe will neet at monday 18 and after that I should now more about that
2017-12-12T21:43:20Z jmercouris: Ah yes, I remember that now
2017-12-12T21:43:26Z jmercouris: KZiemian: Which time zone? UTC?
2017-12-12T21:43:59Z jmercouris: Ah, you are saying Monday the 18th, not at 18:00, got it! Sorry for the confusion
2017-12-12T21:44:13Z KZiemian: jmercouris: no problem, this was my mistake
2017-12-12T21:45:22Z KZiemian: jmercouris: current state of CLUS, at least my part
2017-12-12T21:45:52Z KZiemian: jmercouris: is to write ccldoc that generate one page that looks like that of CLHS
2017-12-12T21:46:56Z KZiemian: jmercouris: what I can do to this moment you can find here
2017-12-12T21:47:05Z KZiemian: jmercouris: https://github.com/KZiemian/Notes-on-and-examples-CCLDoc
2017-12-12T21:47:31Z KZiemian: jmercouris: how I say, I can make html page, but it looks ugly
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2017-12-12T21:48:31Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I mean html page generated by ccldoc
2017-12-12T21:49:14Z KZiemian: jmercouris: this is my part and don't know why we decided on ccldoc, not why we do next
2017-12-12T21:49:37Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I hope next monday phoe tell me more about it
2017-12-12T21:51:39Z jmercouris: I see, I'm sure the HTML is fine, it can always be remedied with CSS
2017-12-12T21:51:40Z KZiemian: jmercouris: this is one of my problems, I can see only part of project, but I try to make my part as good as I can
2017-12-12T21:52:48Z jmercouris: It's unfortunate that I don't speak polish, otherwise I would read what you've done :D
2017-12-12T21:53:25Z jmercouris: Looking at the HTML, it looks okay, there is indent a lot of work that could be done on it though
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2017-12-12T21:54:18Z jmercouris: Mostly indentation and some spaces throughout, but the CSS will make it look fine, so it should be okay
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2017-12-12T21:55:03Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I know that laguage is big problem, but until I understand ccldoc I will write in polish, because that is much faster to me and now I must note a lot
2017-12-12T21:55:48Z KZiemian: jmercouris: many of this things will became probably irrevelant when we understand what is going on
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2017-12-12T21:56:13Z KZiemian: jmercouris: but now better note everything that I see
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2017-12-12T21:56:51Z jasom: Is this well defined: (defconstant +foo+ 3) #.+foo+
2017-12-12T21:58:01Z Bicyclidine: no. defconstant doesn't have to establish a binding in the compiler.
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2017-12-12T21:59:17Z KZiemian: jmercouris: one problem of CLUS is that, that I take a break after ending last stage
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2017-12-12T21:59:54Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I just need it, to much checking diff on my head at once
2017-12-12T22:00:10Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I cameback two weeks ago
2017-12-12T22:00:27Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I can't catch any preson from it
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2017-12-12T22:00:57Z KZiemian: jmercouris: phoe is exeption, but it not is for him to find time now
2017-12-12T22:01:38Z KZiemian: jmercouris: so I grab roadmap and start try to do point 1A: ccldoc
2017-12-12T22:02:22Z KZiemian: jmercouris: you can try to catch him ask what need to be done in CLUS
2017-12-12T22:02:32Z jmercouris: If I see him posting online I'll ask him
2017-12-12T22:02:38Z jmercouris: he is polish as well right? so he is on polish time zone?
2017-12-12T22:03:26Z KZiemian: jmercouris: yes he is polish, so probably he is on polish time zone
2017-12-12T22:04:28Z KZiemian: jmercouris: at monday he will definietly be in Poland
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2017-12-12T22:05:37Z KZiemian: jmercouris: thank you for questions, I will try not forget to tell phoe about them
2017-12-12T22:06:08Z KZiemian: jmercouris: I must go in next 5-10 minuts, so if you want ask about somthing now is the time
2017-12-12T22:09:21Z jmercouris: I think I'll wait to see what you guys talk about on Monday, for now I think we've covered all the bases, thanks!
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2017-12-12T22:09:47Z KZiemian: jmercouris: thanks for good questions :)
2017-12-12T22:09:56Z KZiemian: see you
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2017-12-12T22:14:17Z jasom: any suggestions for improving numeric performance on ccl?  I'm seeing it currently ~10x slower than sbcl right now
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2017-12-12T22:21:52Z foom: jasom: I think if you tell it the exact types of inputs and outputs to every math call it will compile it efficiently. E.g. (the fixnum (+ (the fixnum a) (the fixnum b)))
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2017-12-12T22:38:27Z alandipert: i see #'(lambda () ...) in CLHS example code, is there a reason for the #' with the inline lambda?
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2017-12-12T22:39:57Z Shinmera: If I recall it used to be necessary. Now that it isn't, some people just prefer it that way.
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2017-12-12T22:44:20Z pjb: alandipert: there's no good reason for #'(lambda
2017-12-12T22:44:27Z pjb: alandipert: I can find only bad reasons for it.
2017-12-12T22:44:47Z jasom: alandipert: the LAMBDA macro expands to #'(LAMBDA ...)
2017-12-12T22:44:48Z pjb: alandipert: lambda is a macro that expands to (function (lambda …)).
2017-12-12T22:44:50Z jasom: so it's redundant
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2017-12-12T22:45:44Z pjb: alandipert: so either you're in code position and the macro will do the right thing, or you're in data position, and writing #'(lambda will introduce the (function (lambda …)) sexp which is not evaluated, so probably not what you want anyways.
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2017-12-12T22:46:33Z pjb: alandipert: furthermore, lambda may be not cl:lambda (if it's shadowed).  So writing #'(lambda … may expand to (CL:FUNCTION (NOT-CL:LAMBDA ...)) which is not conforming!
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2017-12-12T22:46:51Z pjb: alandipert: while NOT-CL:LAMBDA may be a macro that do what it needs to do.  Adding #' in front prevents it.
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2017-12-12T22:47:25Z alandipert: thanks all, makes sense
2017-12-12T22:47:41Z pjb: (now of course, if you take the pain to shadow lambda you should also shadow function, and override #' too for consistency…)
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2017-12-13T04:01:40Z Ober: is there a secure way to expose swank to an internet facing port?
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2017-12-13T04:05:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-13T04:06:17Z Ober: chau em
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2017-12-13T04:07:38Z beach: Ober: Not quite, but thanks! :)
2017-12-13T04:08:06Z Ober: oh right. sorry very late here
2017-12-13T04:08:33Z Ober: well relative to me, perhaps
2017-12-13T04:08:47Z beach: Unlikely, but possible.
2017-12-13T04:09:27Z pillton: Ober: You can use SSH tunnelling.
2017-12-13T04:10:01Z Ober: pillton: ok. that's what ive been doing. saw a shinmera video where he appeared to hit a swank server directly.
2017-12-13T04:10:19Z Ober: just checking if something fancy was out there for that,
2017-12-13T04:11:18Z pillton: You could probably use TLS with a predetermined key too.
2017-12-13T04:16:18Z turkja: yeah i'd make swank to listen localhost only, then use SSH -L to redirect to that port
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2017-12-13T04:19:49Z Ober: thanks
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2017-12-13T04:24:29Z aeth: Personally, I would rely on SSH over other solutions, where it works.
2017-12-13T04:24:50Z aeth: The world runs on SSH at this point.
2017-12-13T04:25:02Z Ober: but my browser does not
2017-12-13T04:25:16Z Ober: the one protocol that matters most. :P
2017-12-13T04:25:34Z aeth: Rewrite it in Common Lisp. Most of the content won't be there, but that's a feature, not a bug.
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2017-12-13T04:29:27Z loke: Hello DeadTrickster
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2017-12-13T05:33:07Z asarch: beach, https://pasteboard.co/GXVBN0P.jpg
2017-12-13T05:33:37Z asarch: I made this script to render the book from HTML pages into PDF with HTMLDOC: https://github.com/asarch/pcl/blob/master/doit.sh
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2017-12-13T05:52:32Z beach: asarch: Why are you telling me this?
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2017-12-13T05:57:17Z asarch: Well, you suggested me that book
2017-12-13T05:57:28Z asarch: I thought... well...
2017-12-13T05:57:46Z beach: I think you should buy it.  I did.
2017-12-13T05:57:47Z logicmoo: asarch: beach is not used to people ever taking his advice
2017-12-13T05:58:07Z asarch: ?
2017-12-13T05:58:31Z asarch: Oh, sorry. I didn't know :-(
2017-12-13T05:59:26Z asarch: I can't buy it
2017-12-13T05:59:28Z loke: asarch: PCL is a great advice.
2017-12-13T05:59:36Z asarch: It's quite expensive :'-(
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2017-12-13T06:01:20Z beach: asarch: gigamonkey worked pretty hard to write that.  I think he deserves his royalties.  Perhaps you should send him some money.
2017-12-13T06:01:24Z asarch: Besides, I'm saving for "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp", "The Elements of Artificial Intelligence" and "Introduction to Artificial Intelligence"
2017-12-13T06:02:13Z asarch: Oh...
2017-12-13T06:02:42Z asarch: I thought he was rich :-(
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2017-12-13T06:05:49Z asarch: But ok, I will send him the cost of the book
2017-12-13T06:06:13Z beach: Some 10% would be fine.  That would be his royalties.
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2017-12-13T06:07:02Z beach: I am the first to admit that publishing companies are unethical in the way they treat their authors, and in the way they make money.  That is why I use self publishing when I write books.
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2017-12-13T06:08:30Z asarch: I thought I could get the hard copy of the book the same way you can get books from the Free Software Foundation
2017-12-13T06:09:00Z beach: What way is that?
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2017-12-13T06:12:18Z asarch: wget https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/pdf/eintr.pdf && lpr eintr.pdf
2017-12-13T06:15:46Z beach: Well, I haven't checked whether what you did is legal; perhaps it is.  I just think that the author deserves to be compensated for his work.  The FSF does not have as a goal to make money from their publications (though they would be happy for you to order a hard copy, or course).  But I pretty sure that gigamonkey did not write that book just to be a nice guy and in order to spread the word about Common Lisp.
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2017-12-13T06:15:56Z asarch: If you need to change some parameters of the book, like the paper size, download the source code and compiles it
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2017-12-13T06:17:20Z asarch: Most of the Smalltalk books are in the PDF file format to download
2017-12-13T06:18:31Z asarch: Oh, $70 USD :-(
2017-12-13T06:18:53Z asarch: What do you think about "Let Over Lambda"?
2017-12-13T06:18:57Z beach: But thanks for the information.  I am now convinced that I absolutely should not make HTML versions of my books available online.
2017-12-13T06:19:06Z asarch: D'oh!
2017-12-13T06:20:29Z asarch: HTMLDOC is, after all, a great tool, isn't it?
2017-12-13T06:21:17Z asarch: The new way to get PDF from DocBook is from HTML plus CSS style sheets
2017-12-13T06:24:11Z asarch: Have you seen this?:
2017-12-13T06:24:13Z asarch: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
2017-12-13T06:25:48Z asarch: 20 years ago was the way to say "Fuck the System" o/
2017-12-13T06:25:51Z asarch: :-P
2017-12-13T06:26:46Z asarch: Microsoft was the enemy back then
2017-12-13T06:27:26Z logicmoo is a subversive nowadays reading the clhs in .chm form
2017-12-13T06:29:09Z asarch: Even Wikipedia had a great conversion tool to get the PDF version of each article those days
2017-12-13T06:29:21Z asarch: Now it really is a shame :'-(
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2017-12-13T06:41:29Z jackdaniel: asarch: there is a huge gap between "fair share" and "free books", I think that you mistake these two terms
2017-12-13T06:43:03Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure RMS doesn't promote idea of free labor in contrast to fair share and the consumer rights to have control over what he bought / use
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2017-12-13T06:44:00Z jackdaniel: (re the article you have linked)
2017-12-13T06:46:06Z asarch: D'oh! Ok, I will re-read it (maybe because my English was very limited back then)
2017-12-13T06:46:26Z asarch: Where about in France are you in beach?
2017-12-13T06:46:28Z jackdaniel: and generally, fsf encourages to buy the manuals from them, but doesn't close the door for people, who are not interested in spending money for other people effort (wikipedia, on the other hand, encourages donations, which for some reason outrage some people)
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2017-12-13T07:01:26Z beach: My solution to expensive books is to self publish and to set a reasonable price on the book.  That way, more people can afford it, and I get paid significantly more per copy sold than if I had used a publishing company.
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2017-12-13T07:06:45Z jackdaniel: I like the idea promoted by leanpub (namely: author sets minimum price and suggested price, user may pay any amount [min-price; inf)) and service takes 10% itself
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2017-12-13T07:07:22Z jackdaniel: so royalty for the author is 90% and it is possible to publish book with minimal price 0 (of course it is only for electronic books afaik)
2017-12-13T07:08:02Z jackdaniel: study shows, that people often pay more for books which have minimal cost $0 if they find them useful
2017-12-13T07:08:06Z beach: Yeah, it has to cover the cost of printing and distribution.
2017-12-13T07:08:10Z jackdaniel: but that's offtopic from my side, sorry about that
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2017-12-13T07:09:31Z DeadTrickster: Hi loke
2017-12-13T07:10:03Z jackdaniel:  // one last remark, there is apparently service called lulu, which allows you to print electronical books *you own* for some reasonable fee
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2017-12-13T07:11:54Z shka: beach: when this book will be available?
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2017-12-13T07:13:15Z dmh: i have used lulu to print many reference manuals to great effect
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2017-12-13T07:14:06Z beach: shka: I have one book in English available.
2017-12-13T07:14:19Z beach: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computer-Science-Robert-Strandh/dp/1479206660/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513148554&sr=8-1&keywords=Robert+Strandh+introduction+to+computer+science
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2017-12-13T07:14:42Z shka: oh well
2017-12-13T07:14:55Z HoloIRCUser: Hello world
2017-12-13T07:15:11Z beach: Hey HoloIRCUser.
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2017-12-13T07:15:28Z shka: beach: is that first book you published?
2017-12-13T07:15:33Z shka: *the first
2017-12-13T07:15:39Z beach: Like that, yes.
2017-12-13T07:15:47Z swhc: Which
2017-12-13T07:15:50Z swhc: Book
2017-12-13T07:16:01Z shka: yes
2017-12-13T07:16:02Z beach: swhc: The one I gave a link to.
2017-12-13T07:16:44Z swhc: I
2017-12-13T07:17:22Z swhc: where is the link ? I can't see the history
2017-12-13T07:17:32Z beach: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computer-Science-Robert-Strandh/dp/1479206660/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513148554&sr=8-1&keywords=Robert+Strandh+introduction+to+computer+science
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2017-12-13T07:18:03Z beach: I think we should drop the subject now, and pick it up when I have Common Lisp related books to show.
2017-12-13T07:18:49Z jackdaniel: speaking of books, I've ordered PAIP and it arrived on Monday
2017-12-13T07:19:00Z jackdaniel: looks impressive :)
2017-12-13T07:19:03Z beach: It is.
2017-12-13T07:19:06Z beach: Very good book.
2017-12-13T07:19:57Z swhc: Is it good for beginner s
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2017-12-13T07:21:39Z beach: HoloIRCUser: No.
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2017-12-13T07:24:28Z jackdaniel: minion: tell swhc about pcl
2017-12-13T07:24:29Z minion: swhc: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-12-13T07:24:31Z jackdaniel: minion: tell swhc about gentle
2017-12-13T07:24:32Z minion: swhc: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2017-12-13T07:24:51Z jackdaniel: minion: tell swhc about ansi
2017-12-13T07:24:51Z minion: ansi: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/ansi
2017-12-13T07:24:56Z jackdaniel: hm
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2017-12-13T07:25:59Z beach: jackdaniel: Since the maintainer of minion does not want to adapt it to the new format of cliki, I often give minion explicit entries so as to avoid that message.
2017-12-13T07:26:01Z asarch: Marijn Haverbeke gives his book for free
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2017-12-13T07:26:09Z asarch: http://eloquentjavascript.net/
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2017-12-13T07:26:51Z jackdaniel: asarch: this is not channel dedicated to javascript
2017-12-13T07:26:57Z asarch: Packt once in a while lets you download some titles for free
2017-12-13T07:27:05Z asarch: I mean, speaking about books
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2017-12-13T07:27:41Z jackdaniel: asarch: I think this discussion fits better #lispcafe (and I'm aware I did carry offtopic myself ;)
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2017-12-13T07:29:58Z asarch: Anyway, thank you very much guys
2017-12-13T07:31:02Z asarch: And I really sorry for stealing Peter Seibel's work. I promise I will compensate him
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2017-12-13T07:31:45Z asarch: I will write a book about learning Lisp (Common Lisp) and I will give it for free
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2017-12-13T07:32:22Z beach: asarch: Good luck.
2017-12-13T07:32:30Z asarch: Have a nice day :-)
2017-12-13T07:32:33Z asarch: See you later
2017-12-13T07:32:53Z asarch: Viel Spaẞ!
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2017-12-13T07:38:24Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure you didn't steal it, it is available for free after all
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2017-12-13T07:39:02Z jackdaniel: yet PCL is on my to-buy list, I want to have it in my collection
2017-12-13T07:40:35Z phoe: jackdaniel: depends. MINIX is also available "for free" and yet it's possible to steal it; just don't obey the terms under which it is licensed.
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2017-12-13T10:40:02Z jmercouris: so, I've created this snippet of code here: https://gist.github.com/a16b5106ad918bbd843c304f09918e08
2017-12-13T10:40:18Z jmercouris: I'm curious, how might some of you write it instead? would you have used map? checked the result of the function etc?
2017-12-13T10:40:26Z jmercouris: E.g. what could be a better way to write it
2017-12-13T10:40:51Z jmercouris: What is the goal of the snippet? To load quicklisp if it is in either one of those directories
2017-12-13T10:46:09Z beach: I see two small problems.  The first is the indentation of the DO clause of the call to LOOP.  The second is the name of the function LOAD-QUICKLISP which suggest that it is always capable of loading Quicklisp.
2017-12-13T10:46:52Z beach: Also, for that kind of loop, you can write it as (mapc #'load-quicklisp ...).
2017-12-13T10:47:10Z beach: And you can use a quoted list rather than calling LIST, because the list is not going to be modified.
2017-12-13T10:49:14Z beach: You might consider signaling an error if the file can not be found in any of those directories.
2017-12-13T10:50:37Z beach: Like rename load-quicklisp to maybe-load-quicklisp and have it return a Boolean value indicating whether it found the file to load.
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2017-12-13T10:50:46Z pjb`: And you might consider shortcutting it when the loading has been done.
2017-12-13T10:50:53Z beach: Yeah.
2017-12-13T10:50:59Z pjb`: If you have both directories, it probably will be bad to load both.
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2017-12-13T10:51:28Z beach: Then you can write the loop like this (unless (loop for path in ... some (maybe-load-quicklisp ...)) (error ...))
2017-12-13T10:51:31Z beach: Something like that.
2017-12-13T10:53:06Z pjb: (find (function maybe-load-quicklisp) '(".quicklisp/setup.lisp" "quicklisp/setup.lisp"))
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2017-12-13T10:53:48Z pjb: Since the current implementation of load-quicklisp will return true only if loaded.
2017-12-13T10:53:49Z pjb: clhs load
2017-12-13T10:53:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2017-12-13T10:53:52Z beach: pjb: find-if?
2017-12-13T10:53:59Z pjb: Right, sorry, FIND-IF.
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2017-12-13T10:56:30Z beach: Well, if the current function is supposed to return a Boolean indicating success, it needs to be rewritten.  Because as it is written now, it should only be used for side effect.
2017-12-13T10:57:13Z pjb: Do you say that for the WHEN?  It's already returning the wanted boolean.
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2017-12-13T10:57:48Z beach: Semantically speaking yes, but not software-engineeringly speaking.
2017-12-13T10:58:06Z pjb: How would you write it?
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2017-12-13T10:58:33Z beach: Hold on, I removed the page...
2017-12-13T10:59:56Z beach: clhs load
2017-12-13T10:59:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2017-12-13T11:00:23Z beach: checking the return value of LOAD.
2017-12-13T11:01:34Z beach: It depends on whether you want an error to be signaled or not.
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2017-12-13T11:02:22Z beach: Probably (and (probe-file ...) (load ... :if-does-not-exist nil))
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2017-12-13T11:02:45Z pjb: Right.
2017-12-13T11:03:20Z beach: Maybe probe-file is unnecessary though.
2017-12-13T11:03:27Z beach: clhs probe-file
2017-12-13T11:03:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm
2017-12-13T11:03:41Z pjb: You don't need the probe-file, since it could be deleted between the two calls.
2017-12-13T11:04:13Z pjb: (defun maybe-load-quicklisp (path) (load  (merge-pathnames path (user-homedir-pathname)) :if-does-not-exist nil))
2017-12-13T11:04:14Z beach: Indeed, so just (load ... :if-does-not-exist nil)
2017-12-13T11:04:18Z pjb: ye.s
2017-12-13T11:04:22Z beach: Good.
2017-12-13T11:04:49Z pjb: Now there could be other errors while loading.  Perhaps we want to ignore them to try the next one.
2017-12-13T11:05:01Z beach: Possibly.
2017-12-13T11:05:01Z pjb: (defun maybe-load-quicklisp (path) (ignore-errors (load (merge-pathnames path (user-homedir-pathname)) :if-does-not-exist nil)))
2017-12-13T11:12:38Z beach: jmercouris: By the way, I like your approach to learning idiomatic code.  Some people who come here couldn't care less.
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2017-12-13T11:19:19Z republican_devil: is lisp really more productive than smalltalk haskell prolog?
2017-12-13T11:19:26Z republican_devil: i gave up
2017-12-13T11:19:34Z republican_devil: but maybe I should go back to gentle intro
2017-12-13T11:19:36Z republican_devil: and learn it
2017-12-13T11:19:43Z republican_devil: seems complex
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2017-12-13T11:32:30Z jmercouris: pjb: How can I shortcut when it is done if I do mapc?
2017-12-13T11:32:51Z jmercouris: I will have to write a loop in this case, no?
2017-12-13T11:33:24Z jmercouris: beach: Thanks, I am trying to understand how a Lisper thinks and what are the strengths of the language
2017-12-13T11:33:47Z pjb: Using FIND-IF as indicated above is simplier than using MAPC.  With MAPC you would have to wrap it in a BLOCK and RETURN-FROM it.
2017-12-13T11:34:05Z pjb: republican_devil: it's actually quite simple.
2017-12-13T11:34:19Z pjb: Way simplier than Haskell or Prolog.
2017-12-13T11:34:42Z pjb: republican_devil: you may try Smalltalk, if you want to benefit from an integrated GUI IDE using eg. Squeak.
2017-12-13T11:34:49Z jmercouris: pjb: Ah, somehow I missed that part after your nick changed, okay, I got it, thank you!
2017-12-13T11:35:09Z pjb: republican_devil: http://squeak.org
2017-12-13T11:36:08Z pjb: republican_devil: the gentle intro is smooth anyways.  You may also consider other books or tutorial, see http://cliki.net for references.
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2017-12-13T11:42:46Z republican_devil: I have tried a few times and then I stop and when I come back I forgot msot
2017-12-13T11:43:08Z republican_devil: actually I rememebr liek 80%
2017-12-13T11:43:30Z republican_devil: so overall programmign experience in lisp is still best once get hang of it?
2017-12-13T11:43:31Z turkja: republican_devil: for me this was the gentle introduction: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2017-12-13T11:43:57Z republican_devil: do you feel lisp>php etc for web?
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2017-12-13T11:46:24Z turkja: productivity... is of course interesting, but personally i don't program in lisp for being productive. For that i'd choose python. Lisp programming is simply fun, and it feels right and correct. Purely personal opinion, obviously.
2017-12-13T11:47:35Z jmercouris: turkja: As a "expert" python developer and "novice" lisp developer, I would say one is not necessarily more or less suited to productivity
2017-12-13T11:47:53Z jmercouris: turkja: It depends on your application, if your spec will change and you must update a lot, lisp is infinitely more flexible
2017-12-13T11:48:08Z jmercouris: if your goal is to hammer something out with a clear spec, python will oft be quicker
2017-12-13T11:48:13Z turkja: jmercouris: i'm actually referring simply to available libraries etc
2017-12-13T11:48:28Z jmercouris: turkja: ah, then yes, in this case python is unbeatable
2017-12-13T11:48:35Z turkja: and to the hammering, which seems to be the way to do things
2017-12-13T11:48:36Z jmercouris: though every library invents its own stupid paradigms
2017-12-13T12:04:15Z pjb: republican_devil: try to write some lisp code everyday to keep sanity after 8 hours of torture with java or whatever.
2017-12-13T12:05:21Z pjb: I find python way too limited: you only have OOP to work with python. In CL you can use any paradygm you want or need, and you can even invent new ones.
2017-12-13T12:06:59Z jmercouris: pjb: There's a lot more than just OOP, you could program in a completely functional style in python, functions are first class citizens etc
2017-12-13T12:07:10Z jmercouris: You could also do procedural code if you wanted to
2017-12-13T12:07:39Z jmercouris: Also there are some limited "macros" like things called "decorators"
2017-12-13T12:07:43Z pjb: jmercouris: no lambda worth it.
2017-12-13T12:07:55Z jmercouris: pjb: You can create lambdas in python
2017-12-13T12:08:01Z pjb: only oneliners.
2017-12-13T12:08:21Z jmercouris: pjb: You could break it into multiple lines by using \
2017-12-13T12:08:25Z pjb: :-)
2017-12-13T12:08:30Z pjb: What a joke…
2017-12-13T12:09:00Z jmercouris: ah, well, it is annoying to do, but there are other control structures that allow you to break across new lines
2017-12-13T12:09:16Z pjb: It's turing complete so you can also use python to implement CL…
2017-12-13T12:09:16Z jmercouris: Like if you have a function you can break the args on new lines without \
2017-12-13T12:09:23Z jmercouris: I've actually done that
2017-12-13T12:09:33Z jmercouris: I've also implemented a Lisp in C as well
2017-12-13T12:09:49Z jmercouris: way back when I was going to try to make my browser emacs style with a "lisp interpreter" and "c functions" for fast things
2017-12-13T12:10:31Z jmercouris: It's amazing what you don't know you don't know, that would have been a horrific codebase to work with
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2017-12-13T12:12:21Z jmercouris: One of the best and worst decisions in python was to do code indenting with spaces and no brackets or anything
2017-12-13T12:12:42Z jmercouris: forces your code to be very neat, and break apart complexities if you see that a line is getting too long, but it is also very infuriating sometimes
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2017-12-13T12:13:12Z jmercouris: This isn't #python though, so I'll refrain from elaborating further :D
2017-12-13T12:14:26Z Shinmera: Fare: Around?
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2017-12-13T12:15:41Z jmercouris: pjb: beach: Thanks: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/commit/edda38552c38d7204ac53ab285bcd6e4bafd988d
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2017-12-13T12:18:10Z turkja: For me the biggest strength of Lisp is the compiler integration with slime and friends, and the whole idea of iterative or interactive programming (sorry i can't find better term). That i simply cannot find in any other language
2017-12-13T12:18:40Z turkja: actually the simple idea of "live compiler" living in my program makes me smile :D
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2017-12-13T12:21:00Z Shinmera: What pains me most about my current Android development is the lack of function reloading and the lack of a REPL to try things.
2017-12-13T12:21:28Z Shinmera: There's lots of stuff that annoys the hell out of me beside that, but that's what's costing me the most time.
2017-12-13T12:21:55Z drdo: What annoys me most about android development is android
2017-12-13T12:22:08Z turkja: Shinmera: you have been spoiled!
2017-12-13T12:22:24Z Shinmera: I like to think that the rest of the world has been living with their legs chopped off instead.
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2017-12-13T12:23:14Z turkja: hehe
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2017-12-13T12:25:03Z jmercouris: Shinmera: You can use ECL to develop on android
2017-12-13T12:25:28Z jmercouris: You can also use it with EQL even
2017-12-13T12:25:39Z jmercouris: if you were feeling particularly hard-core you might look at what is possible with NDK and make bindings
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2017-12-13T12:26:36Z jmercouris: Shinmera: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5-Android
2017-12-13T12:26:49Z Shinmera: No thanks
2017-12-13T12:27:15Z jmercouris: Are you using java or kotlin?
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2017-12-13T12:27:22Z Shinmera: Java
2017-12-13T12:27:35Z Shinmera: I'm not going to switch, so no thanks in advance
2017-12-13T12:27:45Z jmercouris: I understand, invested time
2017-12-13T12:27:52Z jmercouris: I'm much more comfortable myself with java anyway
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2017-12-13T12:28:02Z jmercouris: I don't really feel limited at all actually, except for the REPL part
2017-12-13T12:28:38Z jmercouris: You can do a lot of stuff though with the debugger, it would be worth exploring its capabilities imo
2017-12-13T12:30:11Z jmercouris: Shinmera: This looks interesting: https://github.com/jasonwyatt/Android-DebugPort
2017-12-13T12:32:54Z jackdaniel: havign repl on my phone is certainly fun
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2017-12-13T12:53:36Z Shinmera: To bring this back around to lisp, my Android work is to create a native app for my lisp chat system. https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRRM09RPT0=
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2017-12-13T13:13:07Z logicmoo: trying to decide between *default-pathname-defaults* of "" or the current working dir when lisp starts up
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2017-12-13T13:14:08Z logicmoo: hyperspec suggests current working dir but everyone else does ""
2017-12-13T13:14:50Z Shinmera: The trick is that once you hit the filesystem relative paths automatically get turned into absolute ones by being relative to the cwd
2017-12-13T13:15:12Z Shinmera: So "" is a good choice as it avoids cluttering up pathnames that get merged with *d-p-d*
2017-12-13T13:16:27Z logicmoo: ok i guess i might go with that
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2017-12-13T13:24:25Z logicmoo: oh hrrm  (truename ".") doesnt work on clips to get the cwd
2017-12-13T13:24:33Z logicmoo: clisp*
2017-12-13T13:24:46Z logicmoo: does on sbcl
2017-12-13T13:25:32Z logicmoo: i kind of understand that clisp is following the hyperspec in that "." is not an existing file
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2017-12-13T13:25:53Z logicmoo: " TRUENAME: "/home/dmiles/logicmoo_workspace/packs_usr/wam_common_lisp/t/." names a directory, not a file"
2017-12-13T13:25:59Z mfiano: If you're working with pathnames you probably want to be using uiop anyway
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2017-12-13T13:29:08Z logicmoo: mfiano: right on, currently i am writing truename and making sure uiop has somethuing to target https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/pathnames.pl
2017-12-13T13:30:58Z myrkraverk: Ok, there's something about macros in general, or with- macros in particular that I don't understand.
2017-12-13T13:31:02Z myrkraverk: Given
2017-12-13T13:31:11Z myrkraverk: (defun invoke-with-foo (continuation)  (funcall continuation 'foo))
2017-12-13T13:31:13Z myrkraverk: and
2017-12-13T13:31:28Z myrkraverk: (defmacro with-foo ((foo) &body body) `(invoke-with-foo (lambda (,foo) ,@body)))
2017-12-13T13:31:51Z myrkraverk: why does (with-foo (bar) (format t "~a~%" bar)) ; work?
2017-12-13T13:32:09Z Shinmera: Why wouldn't it
2017-12-13T13:32:19Z myrkraverk: That is, I don't "get" the (lambda (,foo) ...) part.
2017-12-13T13:32:36Z TMA: myrkraverk: try (macroexpand '(with-foo (bar) (format t "~a~%" bar)))
2017-12-13T13:32:48Z myrkraverk: ok.
2017-12-13T13:33:45Z myrkraverk: Ah, so the ,foo turns it into bar during macro expansion.
2017-12-13T13:34:10Z myrkraverk: That was the part that was puzzling me.
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2017-12-13T13:35:33Z basket: myrkraverk: Backquote is just shorthand for consing together lists, so if foo is bound to bar, then `(lambda (,foo) (fn ,foo)) is the same thing as (list 'lambda (list foo) (list 'fn foo))
2017-12-13T13:35:47Z basket: myrkraverk: The unquoted expressions are just evaluated as normal
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2017-12-13T13:36:34Z myrkraverk: Right.
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2017-12-13T13:37:53Z myrkraverk: Question, do compilers (sometimes) optimize away the extra funciton calls due to lambdas?
2017-12-13T13:37:54Z Xach:  
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2017-12-13T13:38:23Z myrkraverk: Not that it matters in my case, I'm just curious.
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2017-12-13T13:39:59Z logicmoo: in wam-cl i sometimes convert the lamda into a real call.. but in the case you gave there i probably wouldnt
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2017-12-13T13:42:00Z logicmoo: naw i guess it could still conver to merely (format t "~a~%" bar)
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2017-12-13T13:54:19Z jdz: logicmoo: did you intend (truename "./")?
2017-12-13T13:54:47Z logicmoo: jdz: oh actualyl i did
2017-12-13T13:55:15Z logicmoo: and clisp doesnt return the same error
2017-12-13T13:55:39Z logicmoo: (although it could if it wanteD)
2017-12-13T13:58:55Z phoe: beach: I just realized.
2017-12-13T13:59:17Z phoe: I think the CL standard assumes that all pathnames create some kind of hierarchical tree-like structures.
2017-12-13T13:59:28Z phoe: How would pathnames work in your LispOS?
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2017-12-13T13:59:46Z Shinmera: paths can be interpreted as a series of tags
2017-12-13T13:59:57Z Shinmera: and truename would produce a canonical ordering of the tags.
2017-12-13T14:00:26Z phoe: I see.
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2017-12-13T14:10:24Z beach: phoe: I haven't really thought about it much.  What Shinmera says sounds plausible.
2017-12-13T14:12:34Z pjb: myrkraverk: theorically, they could.  In practice, I don't know if many CL compilers do.  This is something you'd find probably more in scheme compilers.
2017-12-13T14:13:06Z myrkraverk: Ah.
2017-12-13T14:13:23Z pjb: myrkraverk: similarly, all the functions in CL can be open-coded (implemented as special operators). So a CL compiler is free to transform a mapcar lambda whose result is ignored into a dolist.
2017-12-13T14:13:32Z pjb: But I don't know any doing that.
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2017-12-13T14:13:41Z pjb: Perhaps sicl will be able to do it.
2017-12-13T14:14:27Z Bike: i think sbcl actually does that even if the result is ignored
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2017-12-13T14:14:31Z Bike: isn't ignored*
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2017-12-13T14:27:16Z Shinmera: pjb: SBCL does a lot of special-case transforms.
2017-12-13T14:31:07Z Bike: at least, it open codes mapcar so that (mapcar f ...) turns into a loop of (funcall f ...), and i think if f is a constant function it can inline that
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2017-12-13T14:31:43Z beach: It looks like a normal case of inlining to me.
2017-12-13T14:32:07Z Bike: pretty much
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2017-12-13T14:37:29Z pjb: Ok. that's great that such an optimization be implemented.
2017-12-13T14:37:46Z Shinmera: Other things have more interesting stuff going on with deftransform.
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2017-12-13T16:03:19Z jmercouris: I'm trying to develop a macro, but unfortunately, there are two variable length sections, normally I would use something like ,@rest but I can't see how that would work here:https://gist.github.com/07a0cbaedd4f0aebb8d05646c3397426
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2017-12-13T16:04:39Z Bike: (defmacro defparen (name lambda-list &body body) ...) seems fine to me
2017-12-13T16:05:03Z Bike: well, no idea about the innter html part
2017-12-13T16:05:07Z jmercouris: Bike: how would lambda-list work if there are a variable number of args
2017-12-13T16:05:23Z jmercouris: that's my question, will it treat (arg1 arg2) as one variable within the macro?
2017-12-13T16:05:38Z Bike: It's one value. A list.
2017-12-13T16:05:47Z jmercouris: Okay, that's what I wanted to clarify
2017-12-13T16:05:56Z Bike: (defmacro test (thing) `(quote ,thing)) (test (arg1 arg2)) => (ARG1 ARG2) no problem.
2017-12-13T16:05:56Z jmercouris: Ok, let me try writing it now, knowing this
2017-12-13T16:06:25Z Bike: How else could it work?
2017-12-13T16:06:52Z jmercouris: Yeah, I had this gap in my knowledge, I assumed it consumed every word as a new argument to the macro
2017-12-13T16:07:12Z jmercouris: I assume now it just consumes every sexp as a new arg? or am I wrong here?
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2017-12-13T16:08:32Z Bike: what is a word?
2017-12-13T16:08:58Z jmercouris: Hmm, yes, I'm not sure how to describe it in this context, so I'll just list the words in my example
2017-12-13T16:09:15Z jmercouris: so, defparen, namexy, help-contents I assumed were all words
2017-12-13T16:09:22Z Bike: symbols?
2017-12-13T16:09:26Z jmercouris: that would be individual "tokens" or whatever passed to the macro
2017-12-13T16:10:10Z jmercouris: ok, so here's another thought, what if I wanted to get at the individual arguments within the list, how would I do that?
2017-12-13T16:10:20Z Bike: it's a list. you use car, cdr, first, second, so on.
2017-12-13T16:10:23Z jmercouris: I don't actually need to do this, I'm just trying to improve my understanding of macros
2017-12-13T16:10:29Z jmercouris: Ah okay, so within the macro it is literally a list
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2017-12-13T16:10:46Z Bike: So you were worried that if you wrote (defmacro defparen (name lambda-list &body body) ...) and then tried (defparen foo (a b) ...), it would bind lambda-list to a, and body to (cons b ...)?
2017-12-13T16:11:10Z Bike: in other words, that it would just ignore what you wrote? that would be perverse.
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2017-12-13T16:11:21Z jmercouris: Bike: Yes, that is what I was thinking it would do
2017-12-13T16:11:37Z jmercouris: I guess I should have just tried it first, but I figured maybe there is something else I can learn as well by asking here
2017-12-13T16:11:39Z phoe: What's the practical difference between (defmacro foo (bar baz qux) ...) and (defmacro foo (bar (&rest baz) qux) ...)?
2017-12-13T16:11:42Z Bike: geez, the system isn't actively trying to fuck you over
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2017-12-13T16:12:08Z Bike: phoe: (foo a b c) doesn't work in the latter case, eg
2017-12-13T16:12:19Z jmercouris: I'm not saying the system is out to get me, but we don't exactly get a long 100% of the time :D
2017-12-13T16:12:37Z jmercouris: Bike: Do you have a repository of your code I can look at?
2017-12-13T16:12:45Z Bike: jmercouris: have you read PCL or something? i don't mean to be mean, but symbols are pretty fundamental and it worries me that you're so far into an involved program like a browser without knowing about them.
2017-12-13T16:12:56Z Bike: Mine? I'm Bike on github. I mostly work on clasp at the moment, though.
2017-12-13T16:13:00Z jmercouris: Bike: I've read it, the section about macros didnt really click with me
2017-12-13T16:13:18Z jmercouris: Bike: I actually consulted my notes from the book on Macros while thinking about this issue
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2017-12-13T16:13:37Z Bike: clasp and sicl. so drmeister/clasp and robert-strandh/sicl.
2017-12-13T16:13:38Z jmercouris: In terms of symbols, I'm hesitant to use the word because it feels like I use it in the wrong way every time I talk about it :D
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2017-12-13T16:14:05Z jmercouris: I am well aware of what they are, I just avoid the term
2017-12-13T16:14:20Z Bike: that's like avoiding talking about integers, you know?
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2017-12-13T16:15:05Z jmercouris: It's hard for me to talk precisely
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2017-12-13T16:15:22Z jmercouris: The concepts are clear in my head, but some part of the interface head:mouth jumbles things up
2017-12-13T16:15:25Z Bike: Anyway here's a brief explanation of macros. Say the evaluator or compiler runs into the form (foo ...), as in a list where the first element is the symbol foo. It knows that there's a macro named by that symbol. To evaluate or compile the form, it looks up the macro function with that name, and calls it with two arguments: the form (foo ...), and the current environment. Then it proceeds recursively, evaluating or compiling, on the res
2017-12-13T16:15:33Z Bike: In other words macro functions are normal functions.
2017-12-13T16:16:07Z jmercouris: so a macro is a defun with some special syntax to output symbols?
2017-12-13T16:16:22Z jmercouris: and expand lists of symbols etc?
2017-12-13T16:16:29Z Bike: No. I didn't say that.
2017-12-13T16:16:58Z jmercouris: Okay so let me start over then
2017-12-13T16:17:06Z jmercouris: defmacro defines a function with some special name
2017-12-13T16:17:23Z jmercouris: the compiler knows of that function and looks it up when finding a symbol with a special name
2017-12-13T16:17:57Z jmercouris: all the arguments to the special macro function are the complete form body of the special named symbol
2017-12-13T16:18:14Z jmercouris: yes?
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2017-12-13T16:18:28Z Bike: The macro function gets two arguments. The first one is the form, the second one is the environment. defmacro arranges things so that it destructures the form into the lambda list you specify
2017-12-13T16:18:40Z Bike: Like, you know you can do (destructuring-bind (foo bar) '(1 2) (+ foo bar)) => 3, right?
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2017-12-13T16:19:22Z jmercouris: I did not know that
2017-12-13T16:19:36Z Bike: okay... let me take a different tack here
2017-12-13T16:19:52Z Bike: Let's have a macro (defmacro my-let (var value &body body) `(let ((,var ,value)) ,@body))
2017-12-13T16:20:05Z Bike: so (my-let x 3 (+ x 7)) expands into (let ((x 3)) (+ x 7)), basically trivial.
2017-12-13T16:20:18Z jmercouris: yea, this so far I understand
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2017-12-13T16:21:47Z Bike: We can have (defun my-let-mf (form environment) (declare (ignore environment)) (destructuring-bind (var value &body body) (rest form) `(let ((,var ,value)) ,@body))
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2017-12-13T16:21:55Z Bike: my-let-mf is obviously just a normal function.
2017-12-13T16:22:19Z Bike: and if we do (my-let-mf '(my-let x 3 (+ x 7)) nil), we get (LET ((X 3)) (+ X 7)) same as the macro expansion.
2017-12-13T16:23:03Z jmercouris: Give me a second to process everything
2017-12-13T16:23:03Z Bike: my-let-mf essentially implements the macro function of the original my-let macro.
2017-12-13T16:23:52Z jmercouris: Ah, I get it
2017-12-13T16:24:10Z Bike: If you don't know destructuring-bind, we can be more verbose and write (let ((var (second form)) (value (third form)) (body (cdddr form))) `(let ...)) instead.
2017-12-13T16:24:23Z Bike: only list operations, in other words. no magic
2017-12-13T16:24:32Z jmercouris: yes, I understand now
2017-12-13T16:24:46Z jmercouris: Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me
2017-12-13T16:24:56Z Bike: As it happens we can also get the macro function explicitly, with (macro-function 'my-let). If we do (funcall (macro-function 'my-let) '(my-let x 3 (+ x 7)) nil) it returns the same as my-let-mf.
2017-12-13T16:25:03Z Bike: glad you get it
2017-12-13T16:25:04Z jmercouris: I have read PCL a couple times now actually, and this is the only time it has made sense to me how they actually work
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2017-12-13T16:34:20Z beach: Bike: Great explanation!
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2017-12-13T16:34:55Z Bike: like most things about eval, it makes more sense once you've written eval
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2017-12-13T16:35:11Z beach: Heh, indeed.
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2017-12-13T16:35:51Z jackdaniel: (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) '(:a 3 :b 4 :c 6) …) ;is a nice way to destruct things too
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2017-12-13T16:40:09Z jackdaniel: http://quickref.common-lisp.net/ – cool stuff
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2017-12-13T16:42:07Z beach: Bah, Cluffer is not in there.
2017-12-13T16:42:59Z jackdaniel: is it already in Quicklisp?
2017-12-13T16:43:10Z beach: I hope so.
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2017-12-13T16:43:58Z beach: Maybe not.
2017-12-13T16:43:59Z beach: :(
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2017-12-13T16:44:14Z jackdaniel: right, I can't see it with ql:system-apropos
2017-12-13T16:44:25Z jackdaniel: but I don't have newest dist
2017-12-13T16:44:31Z beach: Me neither.
2017-12-13T16:44:39Z jackdaniel: just updated, still no  cluffer
2017-12-13T16:44:49Z beach: OK, I should submit it then.
2017-12-13T16:44:54Z jackdaniel: did you make an issue on quicklisp-projects to add it?
2017-12-13T16:44:59Z jackdaniel: right
2017-12-13T16:45:06Z beach: I must have forgotten.  It happens.
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2017-12-13T17:05:48Z TMA: is there a way to distinguish between a list and nonlist argument to format? ~:[ and ~@[ can be used for NIL/non-NIL test, but I would like to wrap ~{ so that it will not error on non-list e.g. in (format t "~{~s~}" 4)
2017-12-13T17:07:52Z Fare: quickref.quicklisp.org fails the usual way with uiop: it only looks at the first package, uiop/package.
2017-12-13T17:08:23Z sjl: I wish these autogenerated doc systems had a way to link to the actual docs, for people like me who take the time to write them
2017-12-13T17:09:37Z sjl: there's `:homepage` in ASDF's `defsystem`, maybe that's something that could be used
2017-12-13T17:10:55Z jackdaniel: sjl: I think it links whole README.md toplevel file – that might be a good place to point all the pointers
2017-12-13T17:10:58Z sjl: because if someone finds these "docs" for my stuff and thinks that's all there is, they're going to be disappointed https://i.imgur.com/5gebjQF.png
2017-12-13T17:11:08Z Bike: TMA: what should it do instead?
2017-12-13T17:11:34Z jackdaniel: s/to point/to put/
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2017-12-13T17:12:05Z sjl: jackdaniel: it includes the raw README.markdown, but hilariously it strips out the documentation link in it: https://simple-monosnap.s3.amazonaws.com/The_beast_Reference_Manual_2017-12-13_17-11-17.png
2017-12-13T17:12:15Z sjl: https://github.com/sjl/beast/blob/master/README.markdown
2017-12-13T17:12:33Z jackdaniel: access denied (re png)
2017-12-13T17:12:39Z sjl: ugh
2017-12-13T17:13:09Z sjl: jackdaniel: https://i.imgur.com/9g8zxd6.png
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2017-12-13T17:13:47Z jackdaniel: technically link is there, but the renderer doesn't interpret markdown
2017-12-13T17:14:35Z sjl: wow it just shoves the markdown right in there without sanitizing it huh
2017-12-13T17:14:48Z jackdaniel: right, simple text paste
2017-12-13T17:14:57Z sjl: hope no one inserts a bitcoin-mining <script> tag in their readme
2017-12-13T17:15:36Z jackdaniel: I suspect everything is quoted
2017-12-13T17:16:04Z jackdaniel: but idk, getting back to my toys :)
2017-12-13T17:16:45Z sjl: doesn't look like it https://i.imgur.com/oswAGOy.png
2017-12-13T17:16:49Z pjb: TMA: you can add a parameter: (format t "…" (listp foo) foo) and then dispatch on it with ~:[
2017-12-13T17:17:07Z pjb: TMA: otherwise you can always implement your own format specifier and call it with ~/
2017-12-13T17:17:27Z TMA: Bike: in my special case I have either a number or a list that gets printed via "~{~*~:{~*functor(~d, id(\"~a\"), [~{~*~@{id(\"~A\")~#[~:;, ~]~}~}])~%~}~}" -- the list prints fine, the number errors out. I would like to print the number with some other string (say "~S")
2017-12-13T17:17:46Z beach: sjl: I totally agree with you.  I take the time to write the documentation, and this system ignores it.  On top of that, it documents implementation details such as slots.
2017-12-13T17:18:00Z Bike: ok, pjb's got it then.
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2017-12-13T17:19:23Z Shinmera: sjl: Another problem with any system other than Staple is that it won't support custom definitions.
2017-12-13T17:19:42Z TMA: adding (listp ...) there is not an option, so the only thing is a custom format specifier
2017-12-13T17:20:04Z sjl: Shinmera: I don't know what a "custom definition" means in this context
2017-12-13T17:20:25Z Shinmera: Staple has a specific extension mechanism so your system can define additional constructs like Radiance's routes: https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance/#ROUTE%20RADIANCE-CORE%3ADOMAIN
2017-12-13T17:21:01Z pjb: TMA: why is it not an option?
2017-12-13T17:21:15Z sjl: honestly I feel like autogenerating html pages from docstrings is the least important part of documenting a system, but the part that people spend most of their effort on
2017-12-13T17:21:22Z pjb: TMA: Is your atom replacing the whole list?
2017-12-13T17:21:46Z pjb: sjl: parsing and introspecting the system is indeed the most important part.
2017-12-13T17:21:53Z TMA: pjb: because it is already nested in a ~@{ several levels deep
2017-12-13T17:22:06Z sjl: I'd rather read a usage guide that outlines the high-level design/API written on a napkin and scanned in as a jpeg than a fancy HTML page that just formats docstrings nicely
2017-12-13T17:22:47Z Shinmera: That's fine for you, but I frequently use the symbol index, and also refer other people to specific definitions in case questions come up.
2017-12-13T17:22:52Z pjb: TMA: yes, in that case your only choice is a specific format specifier. You can write it like ~? so that it takes "~{~*~:{~*functor(~d, id(\"~a\"), [~{~*~@{id(\"~A\")~#[~:;, ~]~}~}])~%~}~}" as parameter!
2017-12-13T17:22:59Z Shinmera: So it is very important to me that it can include any kind of definition.
2017-12-13T17:23:08Z sjl: Shinmera: sure.  it's nice to have
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2017-12-13T17:24:26Z sjl: pjb: I already have tools for parsing and instrospecting systems.  Parsing is done by my Lisp implementation, and instrospecting via docstring lookup and jump-to-def in my editor.
2017-12-13T17:24:29Z pjb: TMA: Something like:  (format t "~@{ … ~/fmt:list-or-atom/ …~}" "~{~*~:{~*functor(~d, id(\"~a\"), [~{~*~@{id(\"~A\")~#[~:;, ~]~}~}])~%~}~}" "atom: ~S" list-containing-everything-including-list-or-atom)
2017-12-13T17:24:58Z sjl: what I *want* from authors is the high-level lay of the land.  What are the user-facing parts of the system?  How am I intended to interact with them?
2017-12-13T17:25:01Z pjb: sjl: then once you have that you need to decide on a generated format. Keep in mind pandoc to convert to other formats.
2017-12-13T17:25:42Z pjb: TMA: I don't remember if it's possible…ee
2017-12-13T17:26:16Z sjl: pjb: I'm saying that I don't care very much if authors generate some formatted output for their docstrings at all.  I can look up the docstrings (or code) in my editor.
2017-12-13T17:26:40Z sjl: I would much rather them spend time giving me a view into the design of the system in their brain
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2017-12-13T17:26:59Z pjb: sjl: ok.
2017-12-13T17:27:07Z sjl: But that requires writing prose, not coding, which people often don't like to do
2017-12-13T17:29:13Z Shinmera: My question is why not do both
2017-12-13T17:29:30Z _death: sjl: right, it reminds me of the "any idiot can code" remark by Moon on the runtime experts panel.. but then, the authors of the doc tools aren't going to write the documentation for these 3K libraries, so they write a tool to help a little
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2017-12-13T17:29:37Z pjb: TMA: I'm afraid you will have to make your format specifier very specific, by embedding the formats "~{~*~:{~*functor(~d, id(\"~a\"), [~{~*~@{id(\"~A\")~#[~:;, ~]~}~}])~%~}~}" and "~S" in it.
2017-12-13T17:30:04Z sjl: Shinmera: I mean, yeah if I can have my cake and also eat it, sure.  I do both.
2017-12-13T17:30:07Z pjb: TMA: since you want to use it in a loop, you cannot pass those format strings as parameters using ~V,V/list-or-atom/
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2017-12-13T17:31:10Z sjl: _death: the problem is that now we have a broken version of my docs competing with my actual docs in the google results :\
2017-12-13T17:31:42Z pjb: sjl: you should have stayed in the dark web :-)
2017-12-13T17:31:49Z TMA: pjb: It will do with a specific formatter. It would be more elegant to be more general, but the specific will be fine.
2017-12-13T17:32:40Z pjb: There's no way to take multiple arguments for a custom format specifier, contrarily to ~? which takes a format string, and any number of argument it needs for it.
2017-12-13T17:32:41Z _death: sjl: right, maybe it'd be a good idea to have an asdf property linking to the official documentation, and such systems can take it into account
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2017-12-13T17:33:12Z sjl: _death: yeah, it would be nice if ASDF had a `:documentation` property next to `:homepage`, `:bug-tracker`, etc
2017-12-13T17:33:26Z sjl: and if these autodoc systems would use that to just link to the real docs when they exist
2017-12-13T17:33:36Z pjb: it has :description and :long-description
2017-12-13T17:34:56Z sjl: catting out all the markdown files my documentation directory into a giant `:long-description` seems subpar
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2017-12-13T17:35:19Z sjl: especially when they contain screenshots, etc
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2017-12-13T17:38:17Z _death: the quickref thingy also doesn't support package-inferred-systems style very well, for now
2017-12-13T17:39:13Z _death: (and maybe quicklisp projects are the right place for such tags, not asdf systems..)
2017-12-13T17:40:24Z sjl: _death: I mean, ASDF already has :bug-tracker.  :documentation seems to be roughly the same kind of thing.
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2017-12-13T17:40:42Z _death: sjl: ok, but :documentation is a bad name :)
2017-12-13T17:40:48Z sjl: sure
2017-12-13T17:41:06Z sjl: :external-documentation?  :documentation-link?
2017-12-13T17:41:34Z sjl doesn't have strong opinions on the name
2017-12-13T17:41:52Z _death: :manual would encourage people to write manuals :)
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2017-12-13T17:46:02Z sjl: :manual sounds reasonable
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2017-12-13T17:51:46Z Xach: ASDF once supported arbitrary key/value properties, but it was purged.
2017-12-13T17:52:02Z jmercouris: Are you guys critiquing quickref?
2017-12-13T17:52:20Z Shinmera: Sort of, and sort of just your weekly "people don't document again" whine
2017-12-13T17:52:41Z _death: maybe the asdf mailing list (which I'm not currently reading..) is a good place for discussing such properties
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2017-12-13T17:53:39Z jmercouris: Ah, but it feels so cathartic :P
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2017-12-13T17:54:31Z _death: Shinmera: I think sjl came from the opposite site.. the one with people who document..
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2017-12-13T17:56:18Z sjl: I used to do a lot of Python (especially Django) which has a pretty good documentation culture, yeah
2017-12-13T17:57:11Z _death: I don't document my public libraries.. my excuse is that they're not expressly intended for public use..
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2017-12-13T18:08:11Z Xach: Hmm! I have a warning condition that is being signaled by someone else's code. Is there a nice way, without wrapping calls that might signal the warning, to neuter the warning by e.g. redefining the condition?
2017-12-13T18:09:00Z Xach: By "neuter" I mean not show any output, however that might be achieved.
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2017-12-13T18:10:04Z _death: is there an advice facility?..
2017-12-13T18:10:12Z Xach: No.
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2017-12-13T18:10:56Z jmercouris: speaking of advice facilities, how do those work?
2017-12-13T18:11:19Z jmercouris: what does it mean to "advise" a function, and how is it implemented in practice?
2017-12-13T18:11:32Z Shinmera: Advice is CLOS method combination for the poor.
2017-12-13T18:11:38Z Xach: jmercouris: it is a little like clos before/after/around methods, and it is implemented via indirection of some sort.
2017-12-13T18:11:51Z Xach: Like tracing
2017-12-13T18:12:14Z jmercouris: Xach: What do you mean by "tracing"?
2017-12-13T18:12:24Z Shinmera: CL:TRACE
2017-12-13T18:12:32Z Xach: jmercouris: when you trace a function, it is a specific case of advising something to show output before and after it is called.
2017-12-13T18:13:18Z Xach: Edi Weitz's regex coach app used LispWorks advice to build an app accessing the internals of the library without modifying the library. It looked like a cool example to me.
2017-12-13T18:13:20Z jmercouris: I see, is there built in support for this, or does every piece of software have to implement its own advice pattern?
2017-12-13T18:13:34Z Xach: jmercouris: it is an implementation-level feature. sbcl does not have it. many others do.
2017-12-13T18:13:56Z Xach: it is not standard and required. the interfaces vary from implementation to implementation.
2017-12-13T18:14:06Z jmercouris: I see, so it's not part of the core spec
2017-12-13T18:14:16Z Shinmera: You can write your own advice facility, but that will lose most of the point of it (being able to advise arbitrary functions)
2017-12-13T18:14:30Z jmercouris: Unless of course you are writing a platform that people will extend
2017-12-13T18:14:45Z jmercouris: in which case, your own platform functions are arbitrary functions for those are on your platform, and the point is still kept
2017-12-13T18:15:13Z Xach: I wish sbcl had some of the traditional bells and whistles like advice and stepping. (Maybe it has stepping now? I haven't checked.)
2017-12-13T18:15:32Z u0_a166: are you trying to write an interpreter or understand others?
2017-12-13T18:15:34Z Xach: jmercouris: if you're designing an interactive or extensible system, i think it would be interesting to study hooks and advice and such.
2017-12-13T18:15:36Z _death: I don't see it as obsoleted by CLOS, although there is certainly an overlap
2017-12-13T18:15:49Z Shinmera: Xach: SBCL has had STEP for a good long time
2017-12-13T18:15:52Z jmercouris: Xach: In fact I am
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2017-12-13T18:15:56Z Xach: Shinmera: does it work?
2017-12-13T18:16:00Z Shinmera: Sure
2017-12-13T18:16:00Z jmercouris: that's why I asked that question about hooks the other day
2017-12-13T18:16:03Z Xach: Ok.
2017-12-13T18:16:22Z Shinmera: I've used it a couple of times, but usually it's cumbersome because it's too fine-grained.
2017-12-13T18:16:25Z jmercouris: u0_a166: Designing an interactive system, I'm not writing an interpreter
2017-12-13T18:16:35Z sjl: SBCL has a bunch of extensions to CL:TRACE as well http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-Tracing
2017-12-13T18:17:01Z Xach: I like the trace options. They are handy.
2017-12-13T18:17:06Z sjl: yeah
2017-12-13T18:17:19Z Shinmera: With SBCL's TRACE options you can simulate advice
2017-12-13T18:17:27Z Shinmera: Since there's before and aftter options.
2017-12-13T18:17:48Z _death: in Xach case it'd be around
2017-12-13T18:17:59Z Xach: Hmm!
2017-12-13T18:18:03Z u0_a166: in your function definitions you could have a slot for prolog and epilog hooks and a global flag for if inside a hook
2017-12-13T18:18:29Z Fare: Xach: hash-tables with systems as keys are this-a-way. subclasses of system are that-a-way.
2017-12-13T18:18:31Z Xach: And here I was thinking that you could add trace with advice, but not vice versa.
2017-12-13T18:18:40Z _death: I suppose you could set trace output or whatever to a broadcast in before, and restore it in after
2017-12-13T18:18:47Z sjl: huh, TIL about :wherein for sbcl's cl:trace
2017-12-13T18:19:04Z Xach: Fare: what is the context?
2017-12-13T18:19:15Z jmercouris: u0_a166: Do functions have slots? I thought they had only arguments?
2017-12-13T18:19:23Z u0_a166: that way when your function dispatcher dalls a function it could check hooks before calling, set the flag to not recurse infnitely, cal hook when needed...
2017-12-13T18:19:37Z jmercouris: Are functions objects in CL?
2017-12-13T18:19:56Z Fare: and the properties are deprecated but still haven't been removed yet, for backward compatibility
2017-12-13T18:20:02Z _death: jmercouris: everything is an object
2017-12-13T18:20:05Z u0_a166: whatever data structure your interpreter stores function definitions
2017-12-13T18:20:09Z jmercouris: _death: So, functions have slots?
2017-12-13T18:20:24Z _death: jmercouris: not all objects have slots
2017-12-13T18:20:34Z Xach: asdf kibo strikes again
2017-12-13T18:20:36Z jmercouris: _death: why not?
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2017-12-13T18:21:35Z Fare: "<Xach> ASDF once supported arbitrary key/value properties, but it was purged."
2017-12-13T18:21:50Z _death: jmercouris: because that's the design.. there was a Lisp that took a CLOS-like system more pervasively called GOO.. maybe they have slots there
2017-12-13T18:22:48Z _death: jmercouris: for Common Lisp, the purpose was that you could have a CLOS-less subset of it and still be able to claim with a straight face that it's a Common Lisp
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2017-12-13T18:23:07Z Xach: Fare: When PRIMARY-SYSTEM-NAME moved from ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM to ASDF/SYSTEM, it broke mgl-pax and part of named-readtables.
2017-12-13T18:23:27Z _death: jmercouris: but you can simulate slots using weak hash tables
2017-12-13T18:23:59Z Fare: Xach: does this go away after cleaning the .fasl cache?
2017-12-13T18:24:10Z Fare: Xach: if not, it's higher-priority
2017-12-13T18:25:11Z Xach: Fare: you mean that without loading from fasl, there is a symbol asdf/find-system:primary-system-name?
2017-12-13T18:26:04Z Xach: The code in mgl-pax has a reference to asdf/find-system:primary-system-name. I don't think that exists in ASDF 3.3.1 any more.
2017-12-13T18:26:17Z Fare: I mean that it's bad if a new ASDF breaks old mgl-pax fasls, but it's worse if mgl-pax can't load at all
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2017-12-13T18:26:59Z Xach: I don't think mgl-pax can load in sbcl 1.4.2 with asdf 3.3.1 under any circumstance outside of changing its code.
2017-12-13T18:27:18Z Fare: BTW, I sent PRs to melisgl early this year to fix some of his packages, but I don't think any were merged.
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2017-12-13T18:27:45Z Fare: He didn't reply to email or twitter probing either.
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2017-12-13T18:27:53Z Shinmera: Fare: So in qt-lib-generator when it needs to download the archives, it has to optionally load drakma and zip. I can't make these hard-dependencies because that would force them to be unnecessarily installed on many setups. However, since qt-libs needs to ensure the libraries are ready after it's been loaded, this optional loading of drakma might happen during a current load-op. Any advice on how to circumvent
2017-12-13T18:27:56Z Shinmera: this?
2017-12-13T18:28:11Z Fare: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-pax/pull/3
2017-12-13T18:28:59Z Fare: after 6 months of neglect and no response, is it time to fork the repository?
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2017-12-13T18:30:51Z Fare: Shinmera, not sure what the right thing is, here.
2017-12-13T18:31:07Z Fare: ASDF pretty much has a static model for system dependencies.
2017-12-13T18:31:11Z jmercouris: _death: Weak hash tables?
2017-12-13T18:31:18Z Shinmera: It seems to currently work on my system if I do a manual ql-dist:install of the dependency tree of the systems and then just asdf:load-system.
2017-12-13T18:31:28Z Shinmera: But since you said that's a "no-no" I'd be open to other approaches.
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2017-12-13T18:31:43Z Fare: Typically things like loading are done outside of ASDF, in a setup script, or using Quicklisp or some such.
2017-12-13T18:32:20Z jmercouris: Fare: I think its time for a fork
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2017-12-13T18:33:46Z Fare: if you fork, please also fork madeira-port by Nikodemus, who also won't reply to probing regarding https://github.com/nikodemus/madeira-port/pull/6
2017-12-13T18:34:06Z Fade: nikodemus seems to have fallen off the world. :(
2017-12-13T18:34:22Z jmercouris: Fare: why do you not want to just fork it yourself?
2017-12-13T18:34:38Z Fade: then he would own both pieces...
2017-12-13T18:35:04Z Shinmera: jmercouris: He doesn't want to maintain it.
2017-12-13T18:35:06Z jmercouris: Fade: I'm not following
2017-12-13T18:35:11Z jmercouris: Ah, I see
2017-12-13T18:35:27Z Xach: nikodemus has responded to my messages about it and I expect things to improve.
2017-12-13T18:35:28Z Fare: also worthy of fork: https://github.com/slyrus/cxml-rng/pull/1
2017-12-13T18:36:00Z Fare: jmercouris, because I'm retiring from CL.
2017-12-13T18:36:10Z jmercouris: Fare: What? How old are you?
2017-12-13T18:36:22Z Fare: old enough to adopt #gerbil-scheme instead
2017-12-13T18:36:34Z jmercouris: Fare: Are you joking?
2017-12-13T18:36:41Z Fade: we're sorry to see you go, Fare.
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2017-12-13T18:36:44Z Fare: But I don't want to drop the ball and with happily fix the glaring bugs I introduced.
2017-12-13T18:37:20Z Fare: jmercouris, https://fare.livejournal.com/188429.html
2017-12-13T18:37:45Z phoe: 18:16 < jmercouris> Fare: What? How old are you?
2017-12-13T18:37:49Z phoe snorts
2017-12-13T18:38:30Z jmercouris: livejournal, I take it you are very old :P
2017-12-13T18:38:59Z Fade: are you trying to make the greybeards feel bad?
2017-12-13T18:39:14Z jmercouris: Absolutely not :D
2017-12-13T18:39:17Z Fare: I'm grateful to CL and the its community for all they brought to me, but I want things that can't reasonably be done in CL. I'm already enjoying (and cursing) actor programming in Gerbil, for instance. Or its module system.
2017-12-13T18:39:32Z Xach: Fare: What induces the package variance errors in http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-13/failure-report/cl-influxdb.html#cl-influxdb.examples and http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-13/failure-report/cl-portaudio.html#cl-portaudio-tests ?
2017-12-13T18:39:43Z Xach: They don't seem to occur with older ASDF.
2017-12-13T18:39:48Z Fare: Xach: lemme take a look
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2017-12-13T18:40:43Z Fare: Xach: I suppose the examples define and export some symbols?
2017-12-13T18:41:00Z u0_a166: jmercouris, all communities have elders whether actually old or not. i don't know everyone either
2017-12-13T18:42:28Z Fare: what is interesting is that the error wouldn't appear if you only loaded that code once, but something about the system causes it to be loaded twice
2017-12-13T18:42:40Z Fare: "WARNING: Computing just-done stamp in plan NIL for action (ASDF/LISP-ACTION:PREPARE-OP "cl-portaudio-tests"), but dependency (ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP "cl-portaudio") wasn't done yet!"
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2017-12-13T18:48:50Z jmercouris: u0_a166: How long have you been around?
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2017-12-13T18:49:29Z u0_a166: a week or two
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2017-12-13T18:55:42Z Fare: I sent this PR https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/cl-portaudio/pull/4 but it doesn't explain the WARNING above. Or if it does, that's surprising to me.
2017-12-13T18:59:26Z beach: jmercouris: I suggest you read the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry for "object".  Not everything is an object, but probably more than you think.
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2017-12-13T19:00:47Z beach: jmercouris: While we are at it, every object has a class, too.
2017-12-13T19:00:50Z beach: clhs class-of
2017-12-13T19:00:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clas_1.htm
2017-12-13T19:02:09Z Fare: I don't get this WARNING or what looks like your loading the asd file three times, when I run on ASDF 3.3.1
2017-12-13T19:02:32Z jmercouris: Wait a second
2017-12-13T19:02:37Z jmercouris: a Class is an object, and an object has a class?
2017-12-13T19:02:46Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-13T19:02:49Z Shinmera: Welcome to the MOP
2017-12-13T19:03:12Z jmercouris: Hmmm
2017-12-13T19:03:34Z sjl: Ouroboros Oriented Programming
2017-12-13T19:04:03Z _death: beach: what constitutes the class of nonobjects
2017-12-13T19:04:34Z beach: _death: Oh, many things.  For example comments in source code, or the indentation of the lines in the source code of a function.
2017-12-13T19:04:46Z Fare: Xach: in any case, whatever is causing this loading of portaudio.asd 4 times (there was another time below the first build) and then triggering the WARNING about just-done is triggering an error latent in cl-portaudio-tests.
2017-12-13T19:04:53Z beach: _death: The time it takes to run a function.
2017-12-13T19:05:00Z beach: _death: The number of page faults.
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2017-12-13T19:05:21Z Fare: My PR fixes the latent error, but not the underlying issue (maybe something in your quicklisp test infrastructure?)
2017-12-13T19:05:32Z _death: beach: it seems you take the concept out of context..
2017-12-13T19:05:39Z beach: _death: Not at all.
2017-12-13T19:06:11Z Fare: How does the test infrastructure invoke ASDF?
2017-12-13T19:06:14Z beach: _death: When people are questioned about the "everything" in "everything is an object", it always boils down to "every object is an object".
2017-12-13T19:06:34Z Fare: beach: non-objects are not "things".
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2017-12-13T19:06:48Z Fare: :-)
2017-12-13T19:06:55Z beach: Then we have a tautology as usual.
2017-12-13T19:06:57Z _death: beach: I think "any Lisp datum" passes "everything" given such a question
2017-12-13T19:07:01Z _death: *for
2017-12-13T19:07:16Z Fare: a place? it's not an object. A type? It's not an object. A continuation? What are you talking about?
2017-12-13T19:07:24Z beach: _death: Exactly, and "object" is defined to be a Lisp datum, so again we have "every object is an object".
2017-12-13T19:07:45Z _death: beach: right.. and that is why everything is an object
2017-12-13T19:07:50Z Bike: well actually, if you look at the original etymology, a number of page faults is definitely something the icelandic parliament could talk about, so it's a thing. [nods sagely]
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2017-12-13T19:08:06Z jmercouris: Bike: What?
2017-12-13T19:08:20Z beach: _death: No "thing" and "Lisp datum" are not the same.
2017-12-13T19:08:41Z jmercouris: If anyone wants to answer this brief survey: how long have you been programming in common-lisp?
2017-12-13T19:08:43Z _death: beach: ok.. I don't like to quibble about such things anyway
2017-12-13T19:09:08Z Fare: jmercouris, thing is the judiciary council of free men judging a case. By extension, the case is the thing, or any potential topic for a case.
2017-12-13T19:09:51Z jmercouris: Fare: That didn't clarify it at all :D
2017-12-13T19:09:55Z beach: Bike: Indeed.  And I have been to thingvedlir (or however it would be spelled in English).
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2017-12-13T19:11:13Z beach: þingvedlir, maybe?
2017-12-13T19:11:23Z beach goes to look it up.
2017-12-13T19:11:47Z Fare: jmercouris, my first "real" code in CL was probably my patches to cliki and araneida. Or maybe fare-matcher. Some time in 2004 or before for sure.
2017-12-13T19:11:48Z Bike: Oh, really? Neat
2017-12-13T19:12:15Z Bike: Is that where the althing used to be, or the modern government structure? I guess the former is probably lost
2017-12-13T19:12:33Z beach: þingvellir, apparently.
2017-12-13T19:12:39Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-13T19:13:18Z Bike: jmercouris: the word "thing". it originally meant a kind of judicial council in germanic cultures. the icelandic parliament is still called the "Althing".
2017-12-13T19:13:34Z Fare: Bike: David D. Friedman wrote neat things about the Icelandic saga-era judicial system. And he recently published a book about judicial systems very different from ours.
2017-12-13T19:13:39Z jmercouris: Bike: Huh, that's strange, in modern german, it means thing
2017-12-13T19:13:44Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Eingvellir
2017-12-13T19:13:52Z Bike: it means thing in english too. icelandic is kind of retro.
2017-12-13T19:14:08Z jmercouris: I don't speak old german, so I wouldn't know I guess
2017-12-13T19:14:19Z beach: German?
2017-12-13T19:14:31Z jmercouris: What about it?
2017-12-13T19:14:37Z beach: Never mind.
2017-12-13T19:14:40Z jmercouris: "ding" = thing
2017-12-13T19:14:45Z beach: Sure.
2017-12-13T19:14:56Z Bike: and yeah, i've read a lot of the old icelandic sagas. pretty weird structure. horse-eating.
2017-12-13T19:14:57Z jmercouris: they have a lot of d -> th transitions
2017-12-13T19:15:19Z beach goes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family.
2017-12-13T19:15:30Z Bike: see ya.
2017-12-13T19:15:38Z jmercouris scratches head in perplexion at conversation that unfolded
2017-12-13T19:20:32Z Fare: Xach: Could the multiple loading of cl-portaudio.asd be caused by the quicklisp restarts? That would explain it. I don't have a model though for this WARNING about just-done. Maybe along those restarts ASDF gets confused in the multi-stage session support?
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2017-12-13T19:36:34Z Shinmera: jmercouris: My earliest CL related commit seems to be from October of 2014.
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2017-12-13T19:42:01Z sjl: beach: thingvellir would be the anglicization
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2017-12-13T20:02:20Z Xach: Fare: the session that produced that log does not use Quicklisp. it has an asdf search function that makes every project visible to asdf, but generally nothing else too unusual.
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2017-12-13T20:10:05Z jmercouris: I'm having some issues with using ps:regex in parenscript
2017-12-13T20:10:06Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/d13bab33473b77c0cdf9faf07ecfee7e
2017-12-13T20:10:45Z jmercouris: It seems that (ps:regex) does not actually eval it's arg, it can only handle strings
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2017-12-13T20:12:46Z Bike: not that i'm ultra familiar with javascript, but i'm going to guess that ps:regex is duplicating javascript regex literals, rather than the regular constructor, which can hopefully be referred to like any other function call
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2017-12-13T20:13:31Z jmercouris: Bike: You are correct
2017-12-13T20:13:43Z jmercouris: I was thinking of just doing new Regex('some regex string') to work around this
2017-12-13T20:14:36Z jmercouris: Kind of dumb that it doesn't eval the arg, it totally should, and then convert that to a literal
2017-12-13T20:15:09Z Bike: eval the arg as lisp?
2017-12-13T20:15:14Z jmercouris: yeah
2017-12-13T20:17:13Z Bike: i don't know if that comports with parenscript's usual evaluation rules.
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2017-12-13T20:18:22Z Bike: as a workaround, could you do (ps:lisp `(ps:regex ,...))
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2017-12-13T20:19:28Z jmercouris: That's getting a little too meta
2017-12-13T20:19:40Z jmercouris: I'm going to do this: (ps:new (-reg-exp regex-string regex-flags))
2017-12-13T20:19:55Z jmercouris: Thanks for your comment though, it spurred me in the right direction
2017-12-13T20:23:02Z Fare: Xach: well -- how do you iterate over systems? Are you invoking asdf once or multiple times? Any nested invocation?
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2017-12-13T20:28:04Z Fare: I find the multiple loading of the asd file weird. It ought to be loaded only once in the lisp image, unless it or a defssystem-dependency was modified.
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2017-12-13T20:32:54Z Xach: Fare: i start a fresh session for each system. i work alphabetically by project and then alphabetically by system within that project. i don't clear fasl caches between systems but no two systems are loaded in the same session.
2017-12-13T20:33:08Z Xach: not directly, that is
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2017-12-13T20:41:15Z pjb: _death: there are no non-object in lisp: all lisp data is first class lisp object, and each data has a class.
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2017-12-13T20:42:47Z pjb: _death: (mapcar 'class-of '(nil 1 "foo" #(bar baz))) #| --> (#<built-in-class null> #<built-in-class fixnum> #<built-in-class simple-base-string> #<built-in-class simple-vector>) |#
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2017-12-13T20:43:05Z _death: pjb: right, that's what I meant when I said that in Lisp everything is an object.
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2017-12-13T20:52:07Z _death: and if you want to represent Lisp source text, or running time, or number of page faults, then these would be objects as well
2017-12-13T20:53:08Z _death: since Lisp data is the universe of discourse when the question is asked: is everything an object?
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2017-12-13T20:54:18Z _death: and the glossary provides that any Lisp datum is an object
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2017-12-13T21:13:52Z Fare: Xach: for this log, did you concatenate multiple sessions? One to discover all the systems defined in that file, then one for each system?
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2017-12-13T21:22:31Z flip214: Who could help me get more information about ELS 2018? Our HR needs some informations that are not on the website yet (don't know which ones, though); who could I send the questions to?
2017-12-13T21:23:14Z Shinmera: The mailing list that's linked
2017-12-13T21:23:27Z Shinmera: Or the webmaster, which is also linked.
2017-12-13T21:24:10Z flip214: Shinmera: okay, thanks a lot... can you tell me the fees of 2017? I guess that's the data they want to know.
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2017-12-13T21:24:45Z Shinmera: No
2017-12-13T21:24:59Z flip214: thanks all the same!
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2017-12-13T21:27:05Z Younder: That bot you have on this channel working?
2017-12-13T21:27:54Z Shinmera: There's at least a dozen bots here.
2017-12-13T21:28:13Z Shinmera: Which one are you talking about?
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2017-12-13T21:30:10Z Younder: I can't remember, I have always assumed there was just one
2017-12-13T21:30:26Z flip214: Younder: I guess you think about minion?
2017-12-13T21:30:42Z Younder: flip214, Yes
2017-12-13T21:30:46Z Shinmera: There's minion, specbot, Colleen that I know of.
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2017-12-13T21:32:52Z Younder: minion: (+  1 2 3)
2017-12-13T21:32:53Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
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2017-12-13T21:34:17Z flip214: clhs +
2017-12-13T21:34:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm
2017-12-13T21:34:43Z flip214: Younder: minion's the one taking memos
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2017-12-13T21:35:42Z Shinmera: minion: chant
2017-12-13T21:35:42Z minion: MORE INFORMATION
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2017-12-13T21:35:56Z Younder: flip214, Ahh, I was looking for the one doing lisp calculations.  Anyhow is krystof still here?
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2017-12-13T21:36:49Z jackdaniel: minion is not a bot
2017-12-13T21:36:53Z jackdaniel: minion: are you a bot?
2017-12-13T21:36:53Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 27 seconds is too many.
2017-12-13T21:36:57Z jackdaniel: eh
2017-12-13T21:37:07Z Shinmera: Gotcha
2017-12-13T21:37:28Z jmercouris: minion: What's your favorite food?
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2017-12-13T21:37:48Z rumbler31: minion: go fetch
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2017-12-13T21:37:56Z jmercouris: It was worth a shot, best to head over to #emacs and type ",faith"
2017-12-13T21:38:44Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Lol you posted just before me
2017-12-13T21:38:55Z rumbler31: :-D
2017-12-13T21:39:11Z rumbler31: there's a bot on here or #emacs that will crash with gently malformed urls
2017-12-13T21:39:17Z Younder: minion store John is the best
2017-12-13T21:39:45Z Younder: damn
2017-12-13T21:40:46Z Younder: That was supposed to be worst..
2017-12-13T21:40:57Z Younder: ;)
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2017-12-13T21:56:31Z flip214: minion: memo for Younder: speak slowly and carry a megawatt-laser.
2017-12-13T21:56:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Younder when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-12-13T22:03:23Z Xach: Fare: yes
2017-12-13T22:03:36Z Xach: Though I don't know if system discovery is logged
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2017-12-13T22:06:56Z ealfonso: is there a way to get rid of the surrounding |? (intern (format nil "xdotool-type-~A" "name")) => |xdotool-type-name|
2017-12-13T22:08:20Z _death: it's just escaping, the symbol name does not contain any #\| characters
2017-12-13T22:08:26Z ahungry: yes, make it upcase
2017-12-13T22:08:49Z ealfonso: so I can't intern a lowercase symbol?
2017-12-13T22:08:51Z ahungry: CL symbols are not case sensitive unless the pipes surround it
2017-12-13T22:09:10Z ahungry: you are interning a lowercase, but the only way to tell the program its 'this' is |this| otherwise this = THIS
2017-12-13T22:09:44Z _death: '\t\r\y\-\t\h\i\s
2017-12-13T22:11:17Z aeth: You probably want to string-upcase it
2017-12-13T22:11:20Z ealfonso: I got it
2017-12-13T22:11:27Z ahungry: (setq |a| 1) (setq a 2) (symbol-value (intern "a")) => 1, (symbol-value (intern "A")) => 2
2017-12-13T22:11:29Z u0_a166: (make-symbol "Hello,World!")
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2017-12-13T22:14:48Z aeth: What I do for things like this is #.(symbol-name '#:whatever-the-prefix-is-) because technically you can change how the reader case works to not upcase things. So this makes it into an upper case string at read time through the otherwise not very useful #. read eval feature
2017-12-13T22:17:20Z Fare: Xach: OK, I believe the build of influxdb is confused because cl-graph declares an absent file index.md, and this causes ASDF to think its build is incomplete
2017-12-13T22:20:10Z aeth: #.(symbol-name '#:whatever-the-prefix-is-) => "WHATEVER-THE-PREFIX-IS-" or "whatever-the-prefix-is-" depending on the readtable case
2017-12-13T22:20:57Z aeth: e.g. (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (format t "~A~%" (read-from-string "hello")))
2017-12-13T22:21:35Z oleo: eheh
2017-12-13T22:22:09Z aeth: although, actually, that wouldn't help if they rebind the readtable like in that example, it would have to happen before the file is read, afaik
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2017-12-13T22:30:50Z pjb: ealfonso: (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE  *PRINT-CASE* :UPCASE)
2017-12-13T22:31:27Z pjb: ealfonso: you may also try :INVERT instead of :PRESERVE, but it works only for symbols not having mixed case characters.
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2017-12-13T23:22:55Z Fare: Xach: it looks like badly named secondary systems for in defsystem-connection might be to blame.
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2017-12-14T03:29:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-14T03:34:34Z ahungry: morning
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2017-12-14T03:35:22Z beach: Hello ahungry.
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2017-12-14T06:59:54Z hajovonta: good morning!
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2017-12-14T07:03:36Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-12-14T07:10:20Z poorbean: hi I'm new in lisp, but python in mit is very bad to me. C beginning book is better, but I don't know which book is good? Thanks
2017-12-14T07:10:52Z beach: For Common Lisp?
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2017-12-14T07:11:08Z poorbean: Tinyscheme
2017-12-14T07:11:16Z poorbean: Beach
2017-12-14T07:11:22Z beach: Wrong channel.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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2017-12-14T07:15:20Z poorbean: Hi beach can you help me, I'm Chinese. But I don't know the good book in begin when someone to competition?
2017-12-14T07:15:38Z Shinmera: I wonder why it happens so often that scheme people tumble in here when there's literally a channel called #scheme.
2017-12-14T07:16:08Z hajovonta: lisp, lisp.
2017-12-14T07:16:11Z beach: poorbean: Like I said, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  If you want help with Common Lisp books, this is the right place to ask.
2017-12-14T07:16:27Z beach: poorbean: But if you want advice about Scheme books, you are better off asking in #scheme.
2017-12-14T07:16:28Z hajovonta: poorbean: scheme is different than Common Lisp
2017-12-14T07:16:56Z hajovonta: it's another lisp dialect
2017-12-14T07:17:16Z beach: No it isn't. :)
2017-12-14T07:17:52Z hajovonta: how would you explain it to a beginner?
2017-12-14T07:18:03Z beach: Explain what?
2017-12-14T07:19:07Z beach: What Scheme is?  A programming language that is not Common Lisp.
2017-12-14T07:21:31Z jackdaniel: well, many people include scheme in Lisp language family.
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2017-12-14T07:21:42Z beach: And many don't.
2017-12-14T07:21:56Z Zhivago: It should rather be that Common Lisp is in the Scheme family, sort of.
2017-12-14T07:22:05Z beach: Heh, nice!
2017-12-14T07:22:20Z Zhivago: Since that's where it got its lexical scoping from.
2017-12-14T07:22:27Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why definite answer, that it is not lisp is not entirely fair
2017-12-14T07:22:27Z beach: Indeed.
2017-12-14T07:22:43Z Zhivago: I think the claim was that it is not Common Lisp.
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2017-12-14T07:22:57Z jackdaniel: it is not common lisp of course
2017-12-14T07:23:02Z jackdaniel: maybe I did read it wrong
2017-12-14T07:23:04Z beach: jackdaniel: I was merely pointing out that whether this or that language is "a Lisp" is not something that is widely agreed upon.
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2017-12-14T07:23:09Z Zhivago: Personally, I'd rather common lisp staked out #commonlisp or something.
2017-12-14T07:23:17Z Shinmera: Here we go again
2017-12-14T07:23:58Z beach: Sorry, my fault.  Let's drop it.
2017-12-14T07:24:43Z Zhivago: It's not like lisp is so incredibly popular that we need to be so exclusive. :)
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2017-12-14T07:38:38Z Fare: poorbean, Scheme books for beginners include How to Design Programs, The Little Schemer.
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2017-12-14T10:43:15Z Younder: minion: why Lisp?
2017-12-14T10:43:15Z minion: why Lisp: The first chapter of Practical Common Lisp: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html
2017-12-14T10:43:16Z minion: Younder, memo from flip214: speak slowly and carry a megawatt-laser.
2017-12-14T10:43:58Z Younder: Gotcha, You can add memo's
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2017-12-14T10:46:47Z Younder: I take it from flip214 that I need to speak perfectly conceptually clear. And I rely on the spell checker because a simple comma can label me as an idiot,'
2017-12-14T10:47:59Z Younder: I take it from flip214 that I need to speak perfectly conceptually clear. And if I rely on the spell checker because of a simple comma can label you can still me as an idiot.
2017-12-14T10:48:19Z Younder: Editing is indeed great :)
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2017-12-14T10:49:00Z Younder: still label me as an
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2017-12-14T10:49:54Z Younder: I love editing ;)
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2017-12-14T10:52:39Z Younder: Naw, with geniuses like you who needs a purpose, all you need is an itch.
2017-12-14T10:55:23Z Younder: A X-mas present to Xach, from old bann'able and subsequently unemployable younder.
2017-12-14T10:56:56Z Younder: Good riddance I say.
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2017-12-14T11:12:11Z myrkraverk: In SBCL, what does "illegal terminating character after a colon: #\" mean?
2017-12-14T11:12:28Z myrkraverk: The colon in question is inside " "s, so I really don't understand the error message.
2017-12-14T11:13:10Z Shinmera: Are you sure it's actually in string quotes
2017-12-14T11:13:42Z myrkraverk: I can double check, and/or replace the "
2017-12-14T11:13:44Z myrkraverk: But yes.
2017-12-14T11:14:01Z Shinmera: Because the error means the comma is not actually inside a string.
2017-12-14T11:14:35Z myrkraverk: Ok, maybe there's some utf-8 corruption here; and or not ascii "
2017-12-14T11:14:45Z Younder: Multiple "" like you forgot one earlier?
2017-12-14T11:15:39Z myrkraverk: Yeah, just thought of that; checking now.
2017-12-14T11:16:00Z Shinmera: Syntax highlighting should catch these kinds of things
2017-12-14T11:16:21Z myrkraverk: Yup, a lot earlyr.
2017-12-14T11:16:32Z myrkraverk: I'm on remote, for this task; ssh and no syntax highlight.
2017-12-14T11:16:42Z Shinmera: use tramp
2017-12-14T11:17:10Z Younder: myrkraverk, I recommend vim and syntastic.
2017-12-14T11:17:22Z myrkraverk: Call me lazy, but I just use nano.
2017-12-14T11:17:31Z Shinmera: Well you reap what you sow.
2017-12-14T11:20:42Z Younder: Whatever, on a remote terminal, vim with syntasic is just about the best you can get.
2017-12-14T11:21:17Z Younder: But you can use EMACS as well
2017-12-14T11:22:04Z Younder: 'emacs -nw' gives you the text interface
2017-12-14T11:24:02Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2017-12-14T11:24:40Z Shinmera: Or, y'know, as I already said, just use tramp in your local emacs.
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2017-12-14T11:25:51Z Younder: Yes, but then X over SSH has to be enabled. (which I don't recommend)
2017-12-14T11:26:05Z Shinmera: No?
2017-12-14T11:26:09Z pjb: Not for tramp.
2017-12-14T11:26:27Z hajovonta: tramp doesn't require X
2017-12-14T11:26:42Z Shinmera: Tramp is basically just an mode for emacs that copies the file in the back through SSH when you save/load.
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2017-12-14T11:28:21Z jackdaniel: make file access great again
2017-12-14T11:28:28Z jackdaniel: or something like that
2017-12-14T11:33:24Z myrkraverk: C:
2017-12-14T11:33:51Z myrkraverk: Can I convert from (vector character <number>) to simple-string ?
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2017-12-14T11:34:09Z myrkraverk: I don't know what the <number> means.  And google doesn't seem to be much help.
2017-12-14T11:34:24Z solene: hello, is it possible to "validate" read-char using a #\Space ?
2017-12-14T11:34:44Z solene: I'm displaying text in a terminal and I would like to continue scrolling using #\Space
2017-12-14T11:35:30Z jackdaniel: first you need to turn off line buffering in your terminal
2017-12-14T11:36:49Z myrkraverk: My first attempt with coerce was unsuccessful.
2017-12-14T11:37:30Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: <number> means how many elements vector has
2017-12-14T11:37:36Z solene: jackdaniel, is it possible from common lisp or does it require some C code ?
2017-12-14T11:37:38Z myrkraverk: Ah.
2017-12-14T11:37:45Z Younder: A 'terminal' is just a DEV VT 200 or so emulator
2017-12-14T11:38:03Z jackdaniel: solene: I bet it is possible - in worst case with cffi
2017-12-14T11:38:15Z jackdaniel: but I don't know how exactly, you have to look around
2017-12-14T11:38:32Z myrkraverk: When I do (coerce 'simple-string foo) ; where foo is (vector character 40) why do I get: SIMPLE-BASE-STRING can't be converted to type (VECTOR CHARACTER 40) ?
2017-12-14T11:38:47Z myrkraverk: Oh, maybe I'm using coerce wrong.
2017-12-14T11:39:22Z jackdaniel: (coerce #(#\a #\b #\c) 'string) ; works for me
2017-12-14T11:39:39Z jackdaniel: but it is simple-vector
2017-12-14T11:40:00Z Younder: A sequence
2017-12-14T11:40:01Z jackdaniel: also, simple-base-string has base-char elements, while there is no guarantee, that character is a base-char
2017-12-14T11:40:31Z myrkraverk: The function I'm trying to feed this accepts simple-string and simple-base-string.
2017-12-14T11:40:44Z myrkraverk: And C strings; but I'd rather avoid that headache.
2017-12-14T11:41:51Z myrkraverk: Now I just get "The value VECTOR is not of type BASE-CHAR"
2017-12-14T11:41:59Z myrkraverk: Some with simple-string
2017-12-14T11:42:40Z myrkraverk: VECTOR is not of type CHARACTER
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2017-12-14T11:42:49Z Younder: BASE-CHAR is configurable. Are you isning SBCL?
2017-12-14T11:42:54Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2017-12-14T11:45:11Z Younder: you might wanna look at: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/reader.lisp
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2017-12-14T11:46:40Z Younder: Rember all functions are over loadable in runtime. But be careful.
2017-12-14T11:46:59Z myrkraverk: I hope I can work around this without messing with SBCL's internals.
2017-12-14T11:47:27Z myrkraverk: Such as custom looping through the vector to create a simple-string, or something.
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2017-12-14T11:49:06Z Shinmera: (replace (make-string (length s)) s)
2017-12-14T11:50:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: cffi = requires some C code.
2017-12-14T11:51:11Z pjb: solene: what about using RET instead of SPC?  Just use (read-line).
2017-12-14T11:52:21Z pjb: solene: if you insist on SPC, have a look at implementation specific features such as #+clisp ext:with-keyboard, or at cl-charms (ncurses).
2017-12-14T11:52:32Z solene: pjb, I would like to be able to use both, I use get-char now and it works well with RET (it's also possible to type others characters in my software)
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2017-12-14T11:52:55Z solene: I think I'm going with a little of C code, I already have an external C library so most of the work is already there
2017-12-14T11:53:03Z pjb: (cl-charms uses cffi).
2017-12-14T11:54:04Z pjb: You may also use termios, with cffi, but I'd be weary of changing the characteristics of the file descriptor under CL streams.
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2017-12-14T12:24:27Z jackdaniel: pjb: cffi = calling foreign code, that's all. You don't have to touch C to use functions using this calling convention
2017-12-14T12:24:56Z jackdaniel: vide: osicat
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2017-12-14T12:55:39Z hajovonta: can I somehow check if a stream is open or is already closed ?
2017-12-14T12:56:05Z jdz: hajovonta: closed on which end?
2017-12-14T12:56:35Z hajovonta: hm, good question
2017-12-14T12:56:48Z hajovonta: on my end
2017-12-14T12:56:52Z jdz: One way is to try to read or write, and handle the errors.
2017-12-14T12:57:05Z hajovonta: yeah, that's what I'm doing now
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2017-12-14T13:04:48Z pjb: jackdaniel: cffi has all the disadvantage of the C code compiled with the C compilers requiring cffi.
2017-12-14T13:04:58Z pjb: namely: crashes.
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2017-12-14T13:05:19Z pjb: hajovonta: open-stream-p
2017-12-14T13:05:30Z pjb: clhs open-stream-p
2017-12-14T13:05:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open_s.htm
2017-12-14T13:05:56Z hajovonta: pjb: thanks
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2017-12-14T13:21:49Z flip214: is Didier here?
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2017-12-14T13:22:25Z beach: Didier who?
2017-12-14T13:22:43Z flip214: Verna
2017-12-14T13:22:45Z beach: Nope!  You will have to send him email.
2017-12-14T13:22:48Z flip214: thanks!
2017-12-14T13:23:24Z beach: Sure.
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2017-12-14T13:32:40Z jdz: Or message him on Twitter.
2017-12-14T13:33:21Z jdz: Email is a better first thing to try, though.
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2017-12-14T13:49:13Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: thank you, that worked.
2017-12-14T13:51:59Z logicmoo: macro-function lambda lists are always  (form env) .. but not (&whole form env) .. right?
2017-12-14T13:52:16Z pjb: right.
2017-12-14T13:52:22Z pjb: &whole is for macro lambda lists.
2017-12-14T13:53:04Z logicmoo: some lisp are naming 'form'  'whole' and it confused me :)
2017-12-14T13:53:12Z logicmoo: lisps plural
2017-12-14T13:53:31Z pjb: logicmoo: because the macro function receives the whole form.
2017-12-14T13:54:22Z logicmoo: *nod*
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2017-12-14T13:54:52Z pjb: It then uses destructuring-bind to split it into the macro lambda list (minus &env which is processed by defmacro and passed as the env argument).
2017-12-14T13:56:45Z logicmoo: this leads me to another question (barely related) nut since you mentioned the destructing-bind was wondering if documentation strings would be left over inside the stored form
2017-12-14T13:57:29Z pjb: I would expect defmacro to handle it.
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2017-12-14T13:58:28Z pjb: destructuring-bind doesn't take a docstring, but it take declarations.  Since declarations may occur after the docstring, it would break  if it was left.
2017-12-14T13:59:06Z logicmoo: good thinking
2017-12-14T13:59:46Z pjb: Notice that it all relies on defmacro, which is what is specified. Your defmacro could very well generate the macro-function differently, not using destructuring-bind.
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2017-12-14T14:00:26Z pjb: But if you assume it, then this gives constraints on defmacro, such as the handling of &env, of the docstring, and of any declaration concerning the &env parameter.
2017-12-14T14:00:39Z pjb: Those elements must be removed from the form passed to the macro-function.
2017-12-14T14:01:02Z logicmoo: right now i am just removing the docstring
2017-12-14T14:01:17Z logicmoo: (in the defmacro (code that is)
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2017-12-14T14:01:27Z beach: logicmoo: What are you working on?
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2017-12-14T14:01:41Z pjb: logicmoo: you must also remove declarations about the &env parameter.
2017-12-14T14:02:17Z logicmoo: i neglected to also synthsize the macro-function though so making sure its proper as one might expect to (macro-function 'symbol)
2017-12-14T14:02:41Z pjb: (defmacro foo (abc &env *env*) (declare (integer abc) (dynamic-extend *env*) (special *env*)) (foo* abc (g env)))
2017-12-14T14:02:47Z logicmoo: pjb: ah
2017-12-14T14:03:03Z logicmoo: beach: dmiles here.. i sometimes rejoin irc with an alt-nick
2017-12-14T14:03:17Z beach: Oh, I see.
2017-12-14T14:03:21Z logicmoo: (so i am working on my usual.. wam-cl)
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2017-12-14T15:07:42Z drmeister: Hey lispers - Xach told me a few weeks ago about a mechanism in quicklisp to bundle systems for deployment.   I'm trying to jog my memory - does anyone know about a quicklisp facility for bundling systems?
2017-12-14T15:08:28Z _death: (apropos "bundle")
2017-12-14T15:08:45Z Xach: drmeister: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
2017-12-14T15:09:36Z drmeister: Xach: Thank you so much!
2017-12-14T15:12:03Z drmeister: Xach: Does this use the asdf monolithic compilation facility in any way?
2017-12-14T15:12:27Z Xach: drmeister: no
2017-12-14T15:13:45Z drmeister: Ok - that's ok - my end goal is to construct a monolithic fasl that contains code from several quicklisp systems, several quicklisp systems that are in my local-projects and several asdf systems that are provided by my source code.
2017-12-14T15:15:14Z drmeister: Along the way I need a list of source files that will serve as dependencies for the build system that will build this monolithic fasl.
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2017-12-14T15:17:27Z drmeister: Currently I use (ql:quickload "main-system-with-many-dependencies") to find all of the asdf .asd files in quicklisp/local-projects and quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software so that I can grovel the "main-system-with-many-dependencies" to build this list of common lisp files that will be the dependencies of the monolithic fasl.
2017-12-14T15:17:43Z drmeister: The problem with this is that this compiles everything as well.
2017-12-14T15:19:46Z drmeister: Is there a way to get quicklisp to find and load all of the .asd files but not compile everything?
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2017-12-14T15:24:22Z drmeister: Sorry if this sounds a bit confused - I'm a bit off the map here - trying to figure out how to properly merge building a monolithic fasl file with our 'waf' build system (written in Python) and get waf to know the dependencies of the monolithic fasl file.
2017-12-14T15:24:28Z dmiles: is it acceptable practice to store important parts of the implementation things in the symbol-plist or should it be kept clear for users?
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2017-12-14T15:25:06Z dmiles: for instance documention and things like setf-expanders
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2017-12-14T15:26:11Z _death: dmiles: acceptable, as long as you use symbols in your implementation package
2017-12-14T15:26:17Z Bike: kind of retro, though.
2017-12-14T15:26:29Z beach: Very much so.
2017-12-14T15:26:49Z Xach: drmeister: maybe (ql:list-local-systems) or (ql:list-local-projects) could help?
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2017-12-14T15:28:38Z dmiles: implementation package makes sense .. i was thinking about though as i am loading a file.. for things like warnings
2017-12-14T15:28:55Z dmiles: (for non-impl based packages)
2017-12-14T15:30:09Z dmiles: oh and ftype info
2017-12-14T15:33:30Z dmiles: oh the plist keys ... yes... ok from my impl pacakge
2017-12-14T15:34:46Z beach: Are you planning to write the compiler in Prolog?
2017-12-14T15:35:09Z dmiles: beach: i already have mostly
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2017-12-14T15:36:23Z dmiles: it transplies the bodys to prolog.. then uses the internal compiler of prolog to make tramploines
2017-12-14T15:37:13Z dmiles: the setf-expanders though i expand from prolog before i compile
2017-12-14T15:37:56Z beach: And this implementation is supposed to become a conforming one?
2017-12-14T15:38:06Z dmiles: meaning i expand all i can before compiling
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2017-12-14T15:38:32Z dmiles: but i also expect macroredefinations and want ot keep there sources arround so i can recmpile as needed
2017-12-14T15:38:40Z dmiles: hrrm i think i do..
2017-12-14T15:38:48Z dmiles: (want it to conform)
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2017-12-14T15:38:56Z beach: OK.
2017-12-14T15:39:07Z dmiles: though that means it easier because i expect users to not poke the bear>?\
2017-12-14T15:39:25Z dmiles: (i expect *them* to be conforming)
2017-12-14T15:39:58Z dmiles: i dont mind giving them lets of workarround and tricks not in the spec
2017-12-14T15:40:41Z dmiles: for exmaple my symbol-function accessor lets them supply an env so they can peer into the flets
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2017-12-14T15:41:20Z dmiles: (just like symbol-macro lets them)
2017-12-14T15:41:29Z thebigj: Friends, I am trying to understand https://dpaste.de/ZRvU/raw this sample common lisp code given as the example in Aspected Oriented Programming ECOOP'97
2017-12-14T15:41:38Z thebigj: I am sorry but I have no experience with lisp based programming languages.
2017-12-14T15:41:46Z thebigj: I need help to understand what to code does.
2017-12-14T15:41:54Z thebigj: From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#Syntax I can understand first line is defining a function named or!
2017-12-14T15:42:07Z thebigj: Here, the ! is part of identifier or it has some special meaning in function name?
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2017-12-14T15:42:29Z beach: thebigj: How come you need to understand Common Lisp code if you hve no experience with it?
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2017-12-14T15:43:24Z thebigj: beach: I have experience with programming. If someone can explain in words I will be able to catch them and understand what the code does.
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2017-12-14T15:43:52Z beach: It does the "or" between two images represented as matrices.
2017-12-14T15:44:05Z beach: But the variables width and height are undefined.
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2017-12-14T15:45:01Z beach: If the image A has a non-nil pixel in it, then that pixel is copied into the image RESULT, otherwise the pixel in image B is copied.
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2017-12-14T15:45:46Z beach: The code is also badly indented, and the naming is bad.  We don't use the SET- and GET- prefixes much.
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2017-12-14T15:46:03Z dmiles: btw i finnaly letting the compiler write the functions for me .. (instead of by hand).. here is one it write:  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/places.pl#L20-L52
2017-12-14T15:46:06Z Bike: i don't see anything about "or!", am i missing something?
2017-12-14T15:46:26Z beach: Bike: The name of the function.
2017-12-14T15:46:40Z beach: thebigj: No, there is nothing special about the ! character.
2017-12-14T15:46:46Z Bike: In the wikipedia article?
2017-12-14T15:46:54Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2017-12-14T15:47:01Z Bike: oh, in the paste, okay.
2017-12-14T15:47:07Z beach: Yes.
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2017-12-14T15:48:23Z beach: thebigj: I still don't understand why you need to understand Common Lisp code when you have no experience with it.  Are you trying to learn Common Lisp?  If so, it is probably better to read a book.
2017-12-14T15:48:33Z Shinmera: "Common List"?
2017-12-14T15:48:40Z _death: the loops are also ordered wrong, unless it's a fortran-ish lisp or something
2017-12-14T15:48:49Z beach: Shinmera: Yea, I saw it.
2017-12-14T15:49:01Z beach: _death: Oh, true.
2017-12-14T15:49:09Z beach: Should be BELOW.
2017-12-14T15:49:16Z beach: and from 0
2017-12-14T15:49:43Z _death: the outer loop should be over rows, the inner over columns
2017-12-14T15:49:50Z beach: Wow, 10 or more problems in 8 lines of code.  Impressive.
2017-12-14T15:50:04Z Bike: the pixel matrices could be something other than the obvious array representation.
2017-12-14T15:50:14Z beach: It could be, sure.
2017-12-14T15:50:24Z beach: Still a bad choice for the indices.
2017-12-14T15:50:26Z Shinmera: Would also be cleaner with dotimes in my opinion
2017-12-14T15:50:42Z Bike: thebigj: so what's this from? some conference you said?
2017-12-14T15:50:56Z Bike: twenty year old conference, now
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2017-12-14T15:51:54Z thebigj: Bike: This paper is referenced at one book I am reading.
2017-12-14T15:51:54Z Bike: ey, they had kiczales
2017-12-14T15:51:56Z _death: OR is a weird operator to use in that context, maybe it should be LOGIOR.. and then, you'd want to generalize it so that it'll be (combine image1 image2 #'logior)
2017-12-14T15:52:05Z thebigj: Bike: And this code is given as the example
2017-12-14T15:52:13Z thebigj: Bike: So trying to understand.
2017-12-14T15:52:27Z thebigj: Bike: Unfortunatiley I am not lisper (a lisp programmer)
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2017-12-14T15:52:52Z _death: and then you'd likely want to be able to pass a result image rather than creating a new one
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2017-12-14T15:53:18Z Bike: Right. Well, the code is ORing two images together in an explicit nested loop like beach said. It's not great code as everybody said, but that's the gist
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2017-12-14T15:59:15Z dmiles: beach: i dont suggest trying it now but here is what was working a few days ago:  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/README.md#howtoquickstart
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2017-12-14T16:00:11Z dmiles: (it makes platform runnable execs)
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2017-12-14T16:01:03Z dmiles: builds images of itself, lets one reattach and debug
2017-12-14T16:01:25Z beach: Thanks, but I think I'll wait.
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2017-12-14T16:03:23Z dmiles: yes, that is what i meant, i doubt i left the repo in a working state
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2017-12-14T16:30:42Z beach: dmiles: I do not use Prolog, so I'll be interested in your implementation only if it has some advantages over what I currently use.  Sorry about that.
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2017-12-14T16:32:50Z beach: dmiles: Interested in using it, that is.  I might be interested in implementation strategies.
2017-12-14T16:33:21Z beach: dmiles: For example, how do you represent standard instances?
2017-12-14T16:35:40Z dmiles: i used a prolog atom (it is a special interned object that acts like aprimary key in the database) .. i record its superclasses and that is it.  i lazily create prolog fields in the 'asserta database' as they are either first read or set
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2017-12-14T16:36:25Z dmiles: irregadless of the class it takes up 14 bytes
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2017-12-14T16:37:14Z dmiles: if someone stores a symbol in one of its fields it uses 6 bytes
2017-12-14T16:37:42Z dmiles: oh i might be inderplaying that .. i am sure its more like 12
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2017-12-14T16:38:40Z dmiles: if someone adds a cons to a field.. i have to create an area that is tracked and modifiable
2017-12-14T16:38:42Z beach: By "standard instance" I meant an instance of a standard class, and not necessarily a class.
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2017-12-14T16:39:02Z beach: Er, what?  Why does it matter what is stored in a slot?
2017-12-14T16:39:26Z dmiles: i meant an instnace .. except i should have not siad superclass.. i should have said one of more classes it is an instance of
2017-12-14T16:39:42Z beach: It is an instance of exactly one class.
2017-12-14T16:40:00Z dmiles: sure .. i have no problem if it is only one class
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2017-12-14T16:40:17Z beach: No, I mean, CLASS-OF is unique on a standard instance.
2017-12-14T16:40:41Z dmiles: yes i only return the first
2017-12-14T16:40:47Z beach: But, again, why does it matter what you store in a slot?  Why is storing a CONS different from storing, say, a symbol?
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2017-12-14T16:41:23Z dmiles: the reason it maters is how constant that boject is
2017-12-14T16:41:38Z beach: I don't understand.
2017-12-14T16:41:41Z dmiles: cons can be modifed.. where symbols will remain
2017-12-14T16:42:06Z dmiles: (symbols properies can change .. but not the refernce)
2017-12-14T16:42:19Z beach: Same with CONS.
2017-12-14T16:42:31Z beach: So, what happens if you do (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (slot-value ....) x))
2017-12-14T16:42:34Z dmiles: conses and things mutable have to be in live memory
2017-12-14T16:42:56Z dmiles: (symbols are not pinned to modifiable memory)
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2017-12-14T16:43:45Z beach: I am sorry, this is not working.  For every question I ask, your answer introduces at least one new term I don't understand.
2017-12-14T16:44:00Z dmiles: (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (slot-value ....) x)) that slot gets created on first use .. in live memory
2017-12-14T16:44:17Z beach: "live memory",  "pinned",  "modifiable memory".
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2017-12-14T16:45:00Z beach: The slot gets created?  It should already be in the class metaobject
2017-12-14T16:45:22Z dmiles: it gets created on the instance
2017-12-14T16:45:33Z dmiles: i dont actualyl allocate space
2017-12-14T16:46:22Z dmiles: until a the slot is needed .. at which time i confirm on the  class metaobject the slot is even valid
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2017-12-14T16:47:52Z beach: I still don't understand why there is a difference in what happens in the standard object (call it obj) when you do (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (slot-value obj ...) x)) compared to (let ((x 'a)) (setf (slot-value obj ...) x))
2017-12-14T16:47:54Z dmiles: this though wasnt a premature optimazion (though it would sound like one) it is that it is to allow a non determistic deductive system
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2017-12-14T16:49:20Z dmiles: whay it maters if it is a cons or array vs a constant because constants are all identically idetified
2017-12-14T16:49:55Z dmiles: so they all can be stored by a single referce to the constant
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2017-12-14T16:49:57Z beach: What is meant by "identically identified"?
2017-12-14T16:50:27Z beach: And, how are you using the word "constant" here?  Certainly not the way it is used in Common Lisp.
2017-12-14T16:51:09Z dmiles: constants are eq to any place they may exist more than once
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2017-12-14T16:51:24Z beach: So are CONS cells.
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2017-12-14T16:52:10Z beach: (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (slot-value obj ...) x) (eq x (slot-value obj ...))) => True
2017-12-14T16:52:13Z dmiles: (not (eq '(a b) '(a b)))  we want o be able to modify them independantly
2017-12-14T16:52:33Z beach: That's a different issue altogether.
2017-12-14T16:52:49Z dmiles: but that is the issue that required me to make my choices
2017-12-14T16:52:50Z beach: I am asking what happens to the CONS cell x when it is stored in OBJ.
2017-12-14T16:53:14Z dmiles: i plut that const cell in heap and make a heap point
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2017-12-14T16:53:25Z dmiles: i plut that cons cell in heap and make a heap pointer ..
2017-12-14T16:53:43Z dmiles: if i put a symbol there.. i put a picture of the symbol
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2017-12-14T16:54:12Z dmiles: (it is the opposite of how its done in other languiages)
2017-12-14T16:55:28Z beach: OK, let's do this instead (defun ff (x) (setf (slot-value obj ...) x)).  Does it matter what type X is what happens in the (setf slot-value)?
2017-12-14T16:55:48Z dmiles: Objects are all inert pictures as well.. so to put something modifiable in it.. i have to make sure i can modify it later without modifying the object
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2017-12-14T16:56:30Z dmiles: yes..for me it does.. it maters if it is a constant on non-constant
2017-12-14T16:56:37Z dmiles: a stream for me is a constant
2017-12-14T16:56:48Z beach: clhs glossary/constant
2017-12-14T16:56:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#constant
2017-12-14T16:56:50Z dmiles: (all standard objects are as well)
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2017-12-14T16:58:00Z dmiles: i'll use rerminolgy from there.. it maters if the object is immutable
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2017-12-14T16:58:31Z beach: So, suppose the function above was called like this one time (ff (cons 1 2)) and like this another time (ff '(1 . 2)).
2017-12-14T16:58:49Z beach: How do you distinguish between the two cases when you do (setf (slot-value ...))?
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2017-12-14T16:59:46Z beach: The result of evaluating (cons 1 2) is mutable, but the result of evaluating '(1 . 2) is not.
2017-12-14T16:59:56Z dmiles: oh my setf to the slot value is neutral what it calls is not neutral
2017-12-14T17:00:28Z dmiles: by the time what setf calls sees the cons.. it has already been created
2017-12-14T17:00:36Z beach: About half an hour I asked whether the (setf slot-value) behaves differently if it is a CONS and if it is a symbol, and you said yes.
2017-12-14T17:00:49Z beach: Now you are saying no.
2017-12-14T17:00:59Z dmiles: yes the code under setf changes drastically
2017-12-14T17:01:09Z dmiles: but not code at the same level of setf
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2017-12-14T17:01:20Z beach: I don't think I'll ever understand what you are saying, so for now, I have to give up.  Sorry.
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2017-12-14T17:01:45Z dmiles: that is ok.. thank you for trying
2017-12-14T17:02:13Z beach: You might want to make sure you use standard terminology if you want people to understand what you are doing.
2017-12-14T17:02:35Z beach: There is no concept of code being "under" some other code in Common Lisp.
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2017-12-14T17:02:53Z beach: And the concept of a "level" of code does not exist either.
2017-12-14T17:02:54Z dmiles: i dont think there are terms for much of what C or Prolog would do
2017-12-14T17:03:06Z beach: Right.
2017-12-14T17:05:16Z dmiles: worse yet, i try (though not even doing that good a job of it) trying to use more C terminology than prolgo since people have more experience in talking about Lisp in C languages
2017-12-14T17:06:55Z dmiles: as far as what my implementation does in general is acts very lazy so i pay penalities at JIT compiler time
2017-12-14T17:07:14Z dmiles: (which applies to Prolog and not C)
2017-12-14T17:07:42Z dmiles: so it perposely acoids all the allocation choioces a C program would do
2017-12-14T17:08:16Z dmiles: as if it made the same choices, it would be a very poor clone of existing lisps
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2017-12-14T17:10:58Z dmiles: there are many optizations that work on the warren abstract machine (wam-cl) that dont work so great on conventional machines .. the warren abstract machine was created to do things lisp coders where doing at the time with expert system
2017-12-14T17:11:11Z dmiles: s
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2017-12-14T17:14:04Z Bike: it seems like you're talking about basic semantics rather than optimizations. and like, "levels", "neutral", none of those are lisp terms or c terms.
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2017-12-14T17:14:36Z beach hopes that Bike has better luck.
2017-12-14T17:15:24Z dmiles: by level i mean down levels of call stack
2017-12-14T17:16:01Z Bike: Then how does code have a level?
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2017-12-14T17:16:42Z dmiles: if c1 calls c2 calls c3.. i can say that c3 is two levels down from c1
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2017-12-14T17:17:14Z Bike: What if c1 calls c1? What level is c1 at?
2017-12-14T17:17:20Z dmiles: setf after its ben resolved to call something, will call something that will have several levles
2017-12-14T17:17:35Z shka: wait
2017-12-14T17:17:41Z dmiles: c1 calls c1 it is still at the same level
2017-12-14T17:17:47Z shka: dmiles: is there open source WAM implementation for CL?
2017-12-14T17:18:20Z Bike: But now there are multiple stack frames.
2017-12-14T17:18:51Z dmiles: Bike: it depends .. you can call c1 from c1 without create stack
2017-12-14T17:19:05Z Bike: I'm talking about a general call that does create a frame.
2017-12-14T17:19:07Z Bike: A non-tail call.
2017-12-14T17:19:47Z Bike: shka: i think sjl was working on one
2017-12-14T17:19:57Z shka: dman
2017-12-14T17:20:02Z shka: *damn
2017-12-14T17:20:32Z shka: WAM is one of the things i really wish to know better
2017-12-14T17:20:50Z Bike: dmiles is rather talking about targeting WAM, using an existing prolog. i... think.
2017-12-14T17:21:09Z Bike: shka: https://github.com/sjl/temperance
2017-12-14T17:21:24Z dmiles: Bike: if it creates a frame than sure i suppose it could be a a differnt level especially if we have differnt shadow bindings in each c1 (even if TC)
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2017-12-14T17:21:47Z Bike: What's a "shadow binding"? And where are these terms coming from.
2017-12-14T17:22:55Z dmiles: a shadow binding is where a dynamic symbol has a value that changes durring child frames
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2017-12-14T17:23:34Z shka: Bike: AWESOME! thanks
2017-12-14T17:23:47Z dmiles: for examples (let ((*sandard-output* (open ... )) (print 1)))
2017-12-14T17:24:18Z Bike: So it's a lisp thing. Where did you get the term "shadow binding" from?
2017-12-14T17:24:18Z dmiles: *standard-output* has a shadow binding durring the call to print
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2017-12-14T17:26:08Z dmiles seeing if the hyperspec has something close
2017-12-14T17:26:21Z Bike: There is such a thing as "shadowing", but it's different.
2017-12-14T17:28:32Z dmiles: hrrm looks like the term is mostly from emacs lisp and scheme
2017-12-14T17:28:50Z dmiles: i see.. it is not common lisp
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2017-12-14T17:32:41Z dmiles: so in emacs lisp shadow binding  is lexical binding in common lisp
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2017-12-14T17:33:53Z dmiles: the problem with the term lexical binding is it is used to not biding both dynamic and non-dynamic variables
2017-12-14T17:34:20Z dmiles: used often (maybe by accident) to refer to any LET vars
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2017-12-14T17:34:47Z dmiles: but since alpha renaming happens its mute.. they are not lexical
2017-12-14T17:35:52Z dmiles: i suppose we could say dynamic bindings
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2017-12-14T17:38:36Z beach: drmeister: You REALLY need to make sure you use standard terminology, or else you won't be understood.  And people might lose interest, the way I did.
2017-12-14T17:38:38Z dmiles: anyhow it is best if i just stick to questions for a while
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2017-12-14T17:39:01Z Bike: harsh to meister, lol
2017-12-14T17:39:47Z beach: Ooops.
2017-12-14T17:39:52Z beach: I meant dmiles.
2017-12-14T17:39:53Z dmiles: i doubt my answering of questions will be helpfull as i may not be able to answer them in the terminaolgy desired
2017-12-14T17:41:41Z beach: dmiles: But, you see, if you don't even know the terminology of Common Lisp semantics, your discourse will make some of us doubt that you are capable of implementing the language at all.
2017-12-14T17:43:29Z dmiles: that would be bad, as sometimes i need advice
2017-12-14T17:45:03Z beach: Now, I am particularly dense, so you may have better luck with others.
2017-12-14T17:46:14Z beach: I think it has to do with my training as an engineer, where every word may have some technical meaning.
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2017-12-14T17:53:59Z dmiles: when answering questions about how i instance a standard object, i assumed it is becasue it was hard to think aobut in a language that doesnt have mutability or objects being able to do so, so i was trying to answer why it wasnt impossible to do in prolog.. thus the hacks and inventions
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2017-12-14T17:55:23Z dmiles: but that was *me* assuming you knew it was impossible
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2017-12-14T18:00:13Z beach: It is safest to assume that the people you are talking to here have very little knowledge about Prolog, especially modern implementations of it.
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2017-12-14T18:13:01Z stylewarning: Hey all, is there documentation anywhere about statically linked C libraries with SBCL/CFFI?
2017-12-14T18:14:39Z Bike: i don't know that sbcl can do that. you could ask #sbcl though.
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2017-12-14T18:24:57Z stylewarning: Maybe it's dynamic library linking with static dumping with ASDF/CFFI?
2017-12-14T18:25:15Z stylewarning: This is so vague to me: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Static-Linking
2017-12-14T18:25:53Z stylewarning: Fare: Do you have some tips?
2017-12-14T18:26:09Z dmiles: I ended up using ECL when i needed to do static linking :P
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2017-12-14T18:27:06Z stylewarning: dmiles: Maybe one day...
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2017-12-14T18:28:11Z Shinmera: Bike: It can
2017-12-14T18:30:08Z Bike: huh. didn't see it in the manual.
2017-12-14T18:30:50Z Bike: the sbcl manual i mean.
2017-12-14T18:30:50Z Shinmera: There was a presentation about it at ELS'16
2017-12-14T18:32:19Z stylewarning: I see slides, I see reference in the CFFI manual. Of course, in usual Lisp tradition, no comprehensive docs, no examples, no warnings, etc.
2017-12-14T18:36:26Z Shinmera: If you people knew just how much undocumented, incomprehensible source was out there in other languages...
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2017-12-14T18:44:23Z stylewarning: :)
2017-12-14T18:45:40Z stylewarning: When I use static-program-op, I get some business about "undefined symbol _main"
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2017-12-14T18:50:15Z stylewarning: Found Fare's static example: https://github.com/fare/workout-timer/blob/master/workout-timer.asd
2017-12-14T18:50:22Z stylewarning: all this ASDF stuff I've never seen before
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2017-12-14T18:59:15Z jeosol: Hi there
2017-12-14T18:59:29Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2017-12-14T18:59:40Z jeosol: Hi, i was not sure if there is any one here
2017-12-14T18:59:43Z jeosol: how are you doing
2017-12-14T18:59:57Z beach: Plenty of people here.  How I am doing is off topic, though. :)
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2017-12-14T19:02:46Z beach: jeosol: So I take it you are new here?  What brings you to #lisp?
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2017-12-14T19:03:49Z beach: jeosol: Maybe you just wanted to know whether there was anyone here?
2017-12-14T19:04:45Z jeosol: CLOS design question here. What is the better way (for maintainability) to combine two methods defined on two classes A and B, with B inheriting from A. I normally add :before qualifiers to the method with A's object and then just call the method on B, which is the primary method. I have cases where the defmethod on A is called in B using (call-next-method) (this does not use :before tag on defmethod on B).
2017-12-14T19:05:03Z jeosol: I hope not too technical, but it's a high level question
2017-12-14T19:05:07Z jeosol: yes, first time using this forum
2017-12-14T19:05:57Z jeosol: typo correction: in the latter, I mean't (this does not use :before qualifier on defmethod on A
2017-12-14T19:06:15Z beach: That will take me a while to decode.
2017-12-14T19:07:20Z jeosol: I am asking to the general forum. It's more of a design consideration. I normally use the option adding :before to the defmethod on the base class, but have seen codes with call-next-method obviously to handle some specially cases down the line
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2017-12-14T19:08:09Z beach: I don't think there is a general answer to your question.  The right answer has to do with the protocol that you are designing.  Specifically how you describe the role of the primary method(s).
2017-12-14T19:09:10Z beach: It would be unusual to have a call to CALL-NEXT-METHOD in a primary method.
2017-12-14T19:09:22Z beach: A better way would then to have a different method combination.
2017-12-14T19:09:40Z beach: I see CALL-NEXT-METHOD calls mostly in :AROUND methods.
2017-12-14T19:09:50Z jeosol: That is right
2017-12-14T19:10:00Z jeosol: That is where I have seen it most, to handle some special case.
2017-12-14T19:10:06Z rpg:  Also, notice that :BEFORE methods are really only done for side-effects, since they don't change what the primary method computes.
2017-12-14T19:10:23Z fourier: is where a tutorial around on how to check some C define with cffi groveller ?
2017-12-14T19:10:41Z rpg: ... and they can't establish a context for computation necessarily because they are not scoped *around* the primary method.
2017-12-14T19:10:53Z rpg: jeosol: Have you looked at Sonia Keene's book?
2017-12-14T19:10:57Z jeosol: In that case, in my case, the method on the base class only sets up things for A, so I think it's better to use :before qualifier and rely on the standard method combination
2017-12-14T19:11:24Z jeosol: Yes, I have read that book. I also recently read Andreas compilation and have seen different paradigms used
2017-12-14T19:11:45Z beach: jeosol: I for one find it hard to find typical use cases from such a general description.  But you are probably right.
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2017-12-14T19:12:22Z jeosol: I do understand how CLOS works, I am just concerned about what makes for better code down the line if I get another developer. The organization of class hierarchy is in my head and the code base is getting fairly large
2017-12-14T19:13:14Z jeosol: thanks for the comments guys, I think it's better to use the :before qualifier on the base class.
2017-12-14T19:13:21Z beach: I understand, and (again) I think the answer depends on the real meaning of the operations in your protocol, and that no general answer exists for all the cases that fit your description.
2017-12-14T19:13:55Z jeosol: I agree <beach>. The relationship right now, is entire linear but it does vary
2017-12-14T19:14:25Z jeosol: The book I was referring to was Objected Oriented Programming: The Clos Perspective Edited by Andreas Paepcke
2017-12-14T19:16:25Z rme: I had never heard about that book until now.
2017-12-14T19:16:36Z fourier: never heard about it, is it worth reading ?
2017-12-14T19:16:39Z jeosol: That is true, I got it a few weeks ago.
2017-12-14T19:17:07Z jeosol: I was lucky to find a copy,
2017-12-14T19:18:07Z jeosol: Chapters 1, and 2 are very good, respectively Introduction to CLOS and CLOS in Context.
2017-12-14T19:18:26Z jeosol: and it also has some information on CLOS use in some large systems.
2017-12-14T19:18:31Z stylewarning: It's a fantastic book.
2017-12-14T19:18:41Z stylewarning: whoops, I mean Sonia's
2017-12-14T19:18:50Z shka: it is good
2017-12-14T19:18:55Z shka: but not perfect
2017-12-14T19:19:08Z rpg: jeosol: What does "CLOS in Context" mean?
2017-12-14T19:19:09Z shka: the best there is though
2017-12-14T19:19:41Z stylewarning: rpg: Do you have some insight as to what this operation actually allows one to do: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Static-Linking.html
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2017-12-14T19:20:30Z jeosol: Apologies for not being specific enough. Those are the names of the first two chapters.
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2017-12-14T19:20:50Z jeosol: The title of the second chapter is "CLOS in Context: The Shape of the Design Space"
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2017-12-14T19:20:53Z rme: I always say "Keene", because I can't ever remember if it's "Sonya" (in the text and on the copyright page), "Sonja" (on the cover), or "Sonia" (just another spelling).
2017-12-14T19:21:35Z jeosol: It is essentially a summary of Keene's book in Chapter, condensed
2017-12-14T19:22:20Z shka: Sonja?
2017-12-14T19:22:37Z shka: i guess they confused books ;-)
2017-12-14T19:22:40Z jeosol: Yes, it is Sonja
2017-12-14T19:22:51Z jeosol: Sonja E Keene
2017-12-14T19:23:12Z jeosol: Thanks for the add <stylewarning>
2017-12-14T19:23:54Z jeosol: I think so too, it's a great book. I like it a lot especially the application of CLOS in real applications.
2017-12-14T19:25:19Z rpg: stylewarning: Not as well as I should: I don't really use the bundle operations myself, and they were added to ASDF without much participation on my part. One thing I do know, though, is that moving images for some lisp implementations from one location to another can fail as they encounter local dynamic libraries that differ from what they "expect."
2017-12-14T19:27:30Z rpg: stylewarning: But to be honest, I don't know if this problem can occur even without FFI -- I.e., we can dump an image onto a lisp that is sitting on an operating system that has different libraries, providing different entry points to the lisp implementation itself.
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2017-12-14T19:28:43Z rpg: I have decidedly mixed feeling about ASDF's mission-creep from loading systems to providing delivery solution.  I believe ASDF kind of slipped into this as it tried to accommodate "compile-to-C" approaches to CL (notably ECL).
2017-12-14T19:29:05Z stylewarning: That
2017-12-14T19:29:19Z stylewarning: s what it seems. Then again, a robust and flexible solution across all implementations seems nice.
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2017-12-14T19:29:47Z rpg: stylewarning: Right, but it's a test and maintenance nightmare.
2017-12-14T19:29:57Z stylewarning: I myself am going through a lot of effort right now to make a command-line program faster to start/stop, and it seems like a major bottleneck is the dlopen-ing of 4 libraries.
2017-12-14T19:30:19Z stylewarning: was looking for inspiration in static linking and the like
2017-12-14T19:30:51Z rpg: stylewarning: So this is for working with FFI?  Or is it just a slowdown when the lisp implementation itself is starting?
2017-12-14T19:31:21Z stylewarning: The Lisp impl itself seems relatively OK. The FFI clocked at about 0.3-0.5s
2017-12-14T19:31:35Z stylewarning: (By FFI, I mean reloading all of the dynamic libs on startup)
2017-12-14T19:34:06Z rpg: stylewarning: then this operation might work for you.  You might well get a more portable application out of it, too.
2017-12-14T19:34:53Z stylewarning: I'm fighting to get it to work. I'm getting some issue where it says it can't find _main when doing some linker operation with "static-runtime_XXXX"
2017-12-14T19:35:23Z rpg: stylewarning: which CL is this?
2017-12-14T19:35:36Z stylewarning: SBCL
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2017-12-14T19:44:41Z rpg: stylewarning: I'm afraid I don't know that much about the internals of SBCL.  But this looks like a problem with CFFI, I think.  Not sure why it's looking for main, or who's doing it.  Do you have some kind of backtrace for this?
2017-12-14T19:44:55Z stylewarning: I'm trying to make a super minimal example now.
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2017-12-14T19:51:27Z stylewarning: rpg: http://codepad.org/dlY8nyFR
2017-12-14T19:51:56Z stylewarning: whoops, didn't in-package
2017-12-14T19:53:24Z rpg: are you sure that "make" maps to the operation you expect?  Looks like it should.  But just in case -- you're also testing with (oos 'static-program-op "static-fire/static")
2017-12-14T19:53:25Z stylewarning: (but it doesn't make a difference)
2017-12-14T19:54:10Z rpg: also, aren't there limitations on static  linking on MacOS?
2017-12-14T19:54:11Z stylewarning: rpg: I'm fairly certain make is doing what it should because it's calling the linker. But yes, in that case, using oos results in the same failure.
2017-12-14T19:54:45Z stylewarning: Possibly; I'm not sure.
2017-12-14T19:55:19Z stylewarning: I poked around in the source and it seemed like MacOS was supported (mostly through the #+bsd feature)
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2017-12-14T19:58:14Z stylewarning: rpg: Further hint: On Linux, at least `make` returned T; not sure if/where it wrote to.
2017-12-14T19:58:18Z rpg: stylewarning: I just don't know what compilers support compiling to .o instead of .dylib on that platform.
2017-12-14T19:59:21Z rpg: stylewarning: on linux you should go and root around in the .cache to see if you can find the compiled output.  There's some way to redirect the output, but it's not very tasty (IMO), again because of the extension from fasl-building to executable-building.
2017-12-14T19:59:39Z rpg: The whole output-translation idea has a different meaning here.
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2017-12-14T20:05:01Z stylewarning: I do seem to get the same error on Linux, actually.
2017-12-14T20:06:02Z stylewarning: Here's the output of that: http://codepad.org/Way5nKXi
2017-12-14T20:06:08Z fourier: whats the easiest way to compare 2 class instances which has only numeric slots without manually comparing slots ? iterate over slots using MOP and compare them?
2017-12-14T20:07:18Z shka: fourier: but what comparasion you will use?
2017-12-14T20:07:31Z shka: each slot may require it's own function
2017-12-14T20:07:32Z stylewarning: fourier: no, manually compare them
2017-12-14T20:07:39Z stylewarning: there is no need for crazy magic here
2017-12-14T20:07:53Z fourier: its just integers
2017-12-14T20:08:09Z fourier: all fields are integers (class generated from posix c struct)
2017-12-14T20:08:11Z shka: well, i did that
2017-12-14T20:08:21Z shka: using MOP
2017-12-14T20:08:24Z shka: not worth it
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2017-12-14T20:10:44Z fourier: ok thanks.. will look at it further
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2017-12-14T20:13:11Z shka: fourier: well, i can give you my code
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2017-12-14T20:13:37Z shka: it works, i don't guaranteeing that it is the best way to do it though
2017-12-14T20:13:52Z stylewarning: No, don't use MOP for things that don't need MOP.
2017-12-14T20:14:10Z stylewarning: What ever happened to writing (defun my-class= (a b) ...)?
2017-12-14T20:14:45Z stylewarning: Is it too hard to write (with-slots ... (with slots ... (and (= a-1 b-1) (= a-2 b-2) ...)))?
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2017-12-14T20:15:23Z shka: stylewarning: well, it was kinda entertaining
2017-12-14T20:15:30Z shka: but not very practical indeed
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2017-12-14T20:16:43Z stylewarning: Unfortunately lots of "kind of entertaining" code makes it into libraries
2017-12-14T20:17:03Z shka: fourier: https://pastebin.com/FyM2a7NJ but disclaimer: it is not practical solution
2017-12-14T20:17:48Z fourier: shka: thanks!
2017-12-14T20:17:59Z Bike: no, don't use it, cripes
2017-12-14T20:18:41Z shka: well, i am glad that i wrote it, for sure
2017-12-14T20:18:48Z shka: even more glad that i didn't use it :D
2017-12-14T20:18:55Z fourier: ill try different ways, maybe endup with just comparing manually
2017-12-14T20:19:28Z shka: fourier: if those are just numbers, stick all of those into vector and use vector= from alexandria
2017-12-14T20:19:41Z shka: or at least i think it is from alexandria
2017-12-14T20:20:09Z Bike: It's easy. You have (defclass foo ...). You write (defun foo= (foo1 foo2) (and (= (foo-a foo1) (foo-a foo2)) (= (foo-b foo1) (foo-b foo2)) ...))
2017-12-14T20:20:29Z shka: yes, that works as well
2017-12-14T20:20:47Z fourier: problem is what i dont know accessors/fields. the struct is generated by cffi's define-c-struct-wrapper
2017-12-14T20:21:38Z Bike: You mean defcstruct?
2017-12-14T20:22:13Z fourier: ah nevermind, found the definition. yes it was sort of defcstruct
2017-12-14T20:22:29Z Bike: "sort of"?
2017-12-14T20:22:44Z Bike: I mean, defcstruct doesn't even make a lisp class you instantiate lisp objects of, does it?
2017-12-14T20:23:10Z fourier: its grovel's cstruct, hard to get dig what it is doing
2017-12-14T20:23:39Z fourier: and define-c-struct-wrapper creates a normal lisp class around it
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2017-12-14T20:24:09Z fourier: instances of which i need to compare :)
2017-12-14T20:24:34Z fourier: cffi:define-c-struct-wrapper
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2017-12-14T20:27:34Z Bike: Maybe, but MOP isn't relevant.
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2017-12-14T20:28:36Z Bike: oh, i see, another undocumented interface
2017-12-14T20:29:58Z Bike: This seems to define a CL class that mirrors a C struct and can be initialized with one (but thereafter loses any connection to any C object)
2017-12-14T20:30:18Z fourier: magic! :)
2017-12-14T20:30:35Z Bike: I'm not sure what the point is, oh well
2017-12-14T20:33:06Z fourier: another question though. is elsconf mailing list dead now or I'm not properly subscribed (resubbed with another email) ?
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2017-12-14T20:38:54Z rumbler31: what was that thing about specifying symbols that are not interned? like if you wanted to ql a package and you didn't want the name you provided to be interned as a symbol.  I'm not sure what to google for that
2017-12-14T20:39:03Z Bike: clhs #:
2017-12-14T20:39:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
2017-12-14T20:39:26Z Bike: though i think for quicklisp they're string designators, so you could just throw it a string.
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2017-12-14T20:40:26Z rumbler31: so (ql:quickload #:quickproject) fails but "quickproject" succeeds...
2017-12-14T20:40:40Z rme: fourier: I don't think there's been any traffic on the ELS mailing list. According to the list archives, the most recent message was sent on November 29th.
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2017-12-14T20:43:48Z Bike: rumbler31: i think quickload is a normal function, so it evaluates its argument (and #:quickproject is an unbound symbol)
2017-12-14T20:44:20Z rumbler31: hmm
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2017-12-14T20:44:42Z rumbler31: I could have sworn that this #: was discussed in the context of quickloading before but
2017-12-14T20:45:02Z rumbler31: Bike: your answer explains the error I see though, so thank you
2017-12-14T20:45:19Z Bike: you can do (ql:quickload '#:quickproject)
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2017-12-14T20:46:20Z rumbler31: so the reader reads #:quickproject, doesn't intern it, it gets passed to quickload as (quote quickproject)
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2017-12-14T20:47:22Z rumbler31: ahh,
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2017-12-14T20:55:54Z Bike: it's nothing special. it's like if you wrote (ql:quickload oiwjefoansd). oiwjefoansd is unbound, so no good
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2017-12-14T21:25:56Z jasom: suggestions for sending structured data over the network?
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2017-12-14T21:27:02Z pjb: sexo
2017-12-14T21:27:03Z pjb: sexp
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2017-12-14T21:28:32Z pjb: jasom: (write (with-standard-io-syntax (prin1-to-string object)) socket)
2017-12-14T21:28:47Z aeth: If you don't need performance, use s-expressions. If you need performance, nothing beats a custom binary format.
2017-12-14T21:28:49Z jmercouris: jasom: it's almost in your name, json
2017-12-14T21:28:55Z pjb: and (with-standard-io-syntax (read socket))
2017-12-14T21:29:00Z jasom: pjb: probably want *print-readably* as well, right?
2017-12-14T21:29:08Z pjb: it's in with-standard-io-syntax.
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2017-12-14T21:29:45Z pjb: You may want: (with-standard-io-syntax (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read socket)))  for more security, but it would be better to authenticate and validate the data otherwise.
2017-12-14T21:29:46Z aeth: json is problematic because the popular libraries are not two-way, i.e. CL -> JSON -> CL could produce different CL than you started with
2017-12-14T21:29:52Z jasom: oh, I didn't realize that one was set there; I knew it did *print-escape*
2017-12-14T21:30:04Z pjb: and because there are limitations that depends on the programming languages on the other side.
2017-12-14T21:30:13Z jasom: aeth: I have a solution for two-way json at least for the subtypes in json
2017-12-14T21:31:02Z aeth: I would generally treat JSON or XML as an external-to-CL interface and use either s-exp or binary serialization for CL-to-CL
2017-12-14T21:31:26Z aeth: Readable xor performant
2017-12-14T21:31:36Z jasom: [] <=> #() ; true <=> T ; false <=> nil ; {} <=> (make-hash-table :test #'equal) ; nil <=> :null
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2017-12-14T21:31:51Z jasom: [] <=> #() ; true <=> T ; false <=> nil ; {} <=> (make-hash-table :test #'equal) ; null <=> :null
2017-12-14T21:32:04Z aeth: jasom: Yes.
2017-12-14T21:32:29Z aeth: The only problem is people want to use lists and that opens up the '() vs false issue.
2017-12-14T21:32:45Z aeth: Use vectors and hash tables and no issue exists at all
2017-12-14T21:32:46Z jasom: aeth: and then they want to use keywords for object keys as well
2017-12-14T21:32:47Z pjb: Otherwise, I may advise ASN.1 (cl-asinine) for example.
2017-12-14T21:33:24Z aeth: jasom: That's not as big of an issue because you can have a prefix for plists where the car is a 'tag' and the cdr is a well-formed plist
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2017-12-14T21:33:42Z aeth: The big issue is disambiguating an empty regular list and false
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2017-12-14T21:34:00Z jasom: aeth: and few libraries actually do this; they rather have () be null false empty-array and empty-object
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2017-12-14T21:34:12Z aeth: Which is stupid
2017-12-14T21:34:20Z aeth: Your mapping makes perfect sense
2017-12-14T21:34:47Z jasom: aeth: to be fair, I would *not* have come up with that mapping before having used a bunch of other mappings for a while first
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2017-12-14T21:35:36Z aeth: That's why you should write real code and not libraries!
2017-12-14T21:35:46Z aeth: Your mapping makes sense with experience.
2017-12-14T21:35:59Z jasom: anyways I was hoping for something *slightly* higher level; like "Send this message and signal some condition if it doesn't get through" which is ... harder than it should be using just sockets.
2017-12-14T21:36:24Z aeth: You can do that with s-expressions as data
2017-12-14T21:36:31Z jasom: right
2017-12-14T21:36:38Z jasom: or json as data, or conspack or whatever
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2017-12-14T21:37:22Z aeth: Never use conspack for this. It's like the Python serialization format. Too powerful so you have to trust it to load it.
2017-12-14T21:37:41Z Fare: pjb: there's uiop:call-with-safe-io-syntax for that
2017-12-14T21:37:45Z aeth: But you shouldn't trust it over the network, even if it's encrypted
2017-12-14T21:38:02Z jasom: aeth: cl-store?
2017-12-14T21:38:26Z aeth: Similarly, don't just eval s-expressions as data, write a mini-eval that only evals what you expect to run
2017-12-14T21:38:53Z aeth: jasom: I'm not sure if cl-store is safe or if it also suffers from serializing too much of the language
2017-12-14T21:39:21Z Fare: stylewarning, hi -- what do you want to know about static linking?
2017-12-14T21:39:43Z jasom: aeth: this is interesting; conspack specifically lists dealing with untrusted peers as a goal, right?
2017-12-14T21:40:03Z aeth: I'm not sure. Perhaps I confused it with another library.
2017-12-14T21:40:28Z aeth: I thought conspack's goal was to serialize just about anything, including objects
2017-12-14T21:40:37Z Fare: it works for things that are declared with e.g. cffi-wrappers; but so far no one has added support for declaring and linking arbitrary C libraries (either statically or dynamically).
2017-12-14T21:41:09Z jasom: aeth: I thought it only deserialized objects that had a method defined
2017-12-14T21:41:10Z rpg: jasom: there are at least a couple of pretty competent JSON libraries for CL.
2017-12-14T21:41:24Z Fare: The heavy lifting was done, but the definition of social standards was too much for me -- I have 0 energy left to fight the CL community.
2017-12-14T21:41:50Z rpg: jasom: They do require you to know a little bit about what you are sending/receiving because of the aforementioned issue of the differences between JSON and CL about what's "truthy"\
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2017-12-14T21:42:31Z aeth: jasom: What you want is a very limited serialization imo. Numerical types, very basic data structures, etc. I personally think attempting objects is too much. Just write a way to handle that manually, on both ends.
2017-12-14T21:42:33Z rpg: I think CL-JSON lets you specify whether you want values to be lists or booleans.  That must be done in the library, since it's not a JSON thing.
2017-12-14T21:43:05Z aeth: rpg: Defaults matter. cl-json makes the wrong decision for defaults.
2017-12-14T21:43:11Z aeth: Very wrong decisions.
2017-12-14T21:43:11Z rpg: We have also used Google protocol buffers successfully.
2017-12-14T21:43:13Z jasom: rpg: I see 3 ways of dealing with json that make sense 1) using non-native data types (I think jonathan does this) 2) Using a reasonable bijective mapping like I proposed 3) Requiring a schema of some sort so that ambiguities can be resolved
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2017-12-14T21:43:59Z rpg: jasom: CL-JSON, IIRC, uses CLOS to specialize the translations for specific situations.  But I haven't used it in years, so I may be misremembering.
2017-12-14T21:44:31Z jasom: rpg: I have gotten cl-json to use the mapping I propose.  I also got yason to do it.  However, they both have poor defaults.
2017-12-14T21:44:41Z rpg: JSON is a weird standard, because JavaScript's notions of truth, falsehood, and equality are insane.
2017-12-14T21:44:45Z jasom: sabra's review has a good table.
2017-12-14T21:45:09Z aeth: jasom: Writing a library with your mappings would be helpful for the CL community imo.
2017-12-14T21:45:10Z rpg: But XML is a PiTA because it doesn't have a general notion of list or vector.
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2017-12-14T21:45:20Z jasom: JSON is not that weird; many languages distinguish between an empty array, a literal false, 0, and null.
2017-12-14T21:45:38Z rpg: JSON is less weird than JS.
2017-12-14T21:45:55Z jmercouris: The one thing that grinds my gears about JSON is that it comes from javascript
2017-12-14T21:46:03Z jmercouris: otherwise, I would be much happier to use it more often
2017-12-14T21:46:03Z jasom: JSON is far less weird than JS
2017-12-14T21:46:33Z rpg: aeth: I think it might be better to simply write a wrapper around the existing libraries that applies a different set of defaults.  On the general rule that we are proliferating more libraries than we (as a community) can maintain
2017-12-14T21:46:54Z aeth: JSON is nice for languages close to JS: Lua, Python, Ruby, Perl, etc. It's tougher when you're in a language that's farther away from the 'scripting languages' family.
2017-12-14T21:47:06Z jasom: Last thing I'll say about JS: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
2017-12-14T21:47:11Z jmercouris: I would saying that python or ruby are anywhere near js
2017-12-14T21:47:14Z Fare: rpg: and yes, the bundle support was born out of the old asdf-ecl + desire to match xcvb in terms of dumping executables.
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2017-12-14T21:47:20Z jmercouris: if anything python is closer to something like lisp
2017-12-14T21:47:46Z jasom: back to the subject; I may use something like zeromq or nanomsg for messaging.  Thoughts?
2017-12-14T21:47:48Z Fare: also merging into what became uiop in the low-level parts of cl-launch
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2017-12-14T21:48:14Z aeth: The languages I listed (mostly) have similar concepts to the subset of JS that's in JSON, e.g. Python "lists" and dictionaries.
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2017-12-14T21:48:46Z aeth: Compare this with CL or C# where which data structures to use are not obvious
2017-12-14T21:48:54Z jmercouris: aeth: "JSON is for languages that have JSON like data structures" :P
2017-12-14T21:48:56Z aeth: Or Java or C++ or Haskell
2017-12-14T21:49:04Z aeth: These have issues
2017-12-14T21:49:16Z jmercouris: ah yes, Java is the master of shitty data structures
2017-12-14T21:49:22Z aeth: CL has added issues with nil being false and '()
2017-12-14T21:49:35Z jmercouris: What's wrong with those truthy values?
2017-12-14T21:49:45Z jmercouris: It makes sense to me that empty list, nil, and false are the same
2017-12-14T21:49:51Z aeth: Java<->JSON is less problematic than CL<->JSON imo
2017-12-14T21:50:02Z jmercouris: Yeah, I don't know about that
2017-12-14T21:50:11Z jmercouris: Java just has a ton of developer time working on some json libs
2017-12-14T21:50:17Z jasom: jmercouris: most languages have more than one false value, rather than having a single value for all falsey things
2017-12-14T21:50:20Z rpg: For CL, you just need to have a sense of when the JSON field is of type boolean and when it's of type list.  You kind of need that for, say C, as well, so I don't think it's a problem.
2017-12-14T21:50:21Z jmercouris: it's not that the language is inherently more suited to handling json
2017-12-14T21:50:55Z jmercouris: jasom: More than one false value? why is that an advantage?
2017-12-14T21:51:31Z jasom: jmercouris: whether it's good or bad is up for debate, but JSON makes the assumption that "No Object" "False" and "Empty" are distinguishable
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2017-12-14T21:52:08Z jasom: jmercouris: there are ergonomic values to having all of them being treated similarly, but you have less information when you cant distinguish them
2017-12-14T21:52:46Z jmercouris: var array = [], indeed it is empty, vs just == false
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2017-12-14T21:53:08Z jmercouris: I can't think of a scenario in which I've needed this distinction, but I'm sure there is one, something to think about I guess
2017-12-14T21:54:08Z jasom: x = []; y = false; x.push(1); y.push(1);
2017-12-14T21:55:28Z jmercouris: I still don't see why I would need to know the type of Y
2017-12-14T21:55:34Z jmercouris: if I want to push something to it, I don't care that it is just false in CL
2017-12-14T21:55:37Z jmercouris: the push will just work
2017-12-14T21:55:45Z Shinmera: Well the point is that it shouldn't
2017-12-14T21:55:57Z jmercouris: But why not?
2017-12-14T21:56:00Z Shinmera: Maybe you want to have it strictly be one of true or false.
2017-12-14T21:56:01Z jmercouris: what is the advantage in this knowledge?
2017-12-14T21:56:04Z Shinmera: Type safety is nice
2017-12-14T21:56:16Z Shinmera: Lets you catch more errors during compilation
2017-12-14T21:56:27Z jmercouris: I think you've been doing a little much java lately Shinmera
2017-12-14T21:56:49Z Shinmera: I don't see how that has anything to do with anything
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2017-12-14T21:57:23Z jmercouris: Shinmera: One of the biggest java proponent arguments for all of this type safety bs, generics etc "Catch the problems during compilation time, save development time"
2017-12-14T21:57:35Z aeth: CL but statically typed would be the ideal programming language imo. Might need to separate '() and #f like Scheme, though
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2017-12-14T21:58:16Z Shinmera: jmercouris: They're not wrong.
2017-12-14T21:58:18Z aeth: jmercouris: Shinmera iirc is working on a game engine. Game engines mostly deal with very well-defined types. Static typing is a huge win here.
2017-12-14T21:58:35Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Yes they are :P
2017-12-14T21:58:43Z Shinmera: The fact that Java sucks balls has very little to do with people finding advantages in strong typing.
2017-12-14T21:58:57Z jmercouris: Otherwise java programs should have considerably less development time over weakly typed languages, but they dont
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2017-12-14T21:59:13Z jmercouris: Especially because of all of this compiler support and IDE support you get in java
2017-12-14T21:59:21Z jmercouris: theoretically it should be so much faster, but I do not see the gains at all
2017-12-14T21:59:23Z Shinmera: A language is more than its type system
2017-12-14T21:59:35Z Shinmera: But whatever, believe what you want, I'm out.
2017-12-14T21:59:38Z aeth: Java sucks because it sets-in-stone 1990s C++ OOP fads while the world has moved on, even the C++ world.
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2017-12-14T21:59:54Z jmercouris: Java has only been stuck due to the death of Sun
2017-12-14T22:00:16Z jmercouris: there had been huge developments in JIT work at Sun, as well as Dtrace, and all sorts of facility integration that would have made java phenomenalj
2017-12-14T22:00:16Z mikecheck: Java will die when the Sun dies
2017-12-14T22:00:31Z jmercouris: I believe that Java could be so much more today if shit didn't hit the fan at sun
2017-12-14T22:00:41Z jmercouris: I mean, the JVM is an absolutely brilliant idea
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2017-12-14T22:02:19Z aeth: Idea? Yes. In practice? The JVM is designed for Java-like languages and the CLR is designed for C#-like languages, and actually-interesting languages can't run on either unless they were designed to make the compromises necessary to run on one or both.
2017-12-14T22:02:40Z aeth: So it's not that much better than what a transpiler would offer.
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2017-12-14T22:03:10Z jmercouris: aeth: Are we getting into this transpiler debate again? Last time I was disparaged as some insane heretic for suggesting the word transpiler exists :D
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2017-12-14T22:03:41Z aeth: I think compiling to CL could support more interesting languages than compiling to the JVM.
2017-12-14T22:03:58Z phoe: In LOOP, can I somehow skip back to the beginning under some condition? Kind of like "continue" in C.
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2017-12-14T22:04:21Z aeth: CL can recompile at runtime. Could you use this to make a JIT language that runs in a CL environment that's not JIT?
2017-12-14T22:04:43Z Bike: phoe: not really. you can use conditionals though.
2017-12-14T22:04:47Z jmercouris: aeth: That's not really the idea behind JIT
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2017-12-14T22:06:33Z jasom: phoe: not really; you just need to have the rest of the loop under a continue, or put the body of the loop in a tagbody and GO to the end
2017-12-14T22:06:58Z jasom: *rest of the loop under a conditinal
2017-12-14T22:07:06Z aeth: jmercouris: I thought you needed two parts: (1) analyze the code and (2) recompile the code at run time. If #1 is sufficient, you could do #2 on a language that runs in CL
2017-12-14T22:07:32Z jmercouris: aeth: You're spot on with your definition, I'm just saying the purpose isn't to have a dynamic system, it's to make compilation quicker
2017-12-14T22:07:49Z jmercouris: that's like literally the only purpose, that and reducing memory footprint
2017-12-14T22:08:04Z Bike: plenty of jit systems take advantage to speed up generated code in ways that would be difficult ahead of time.
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2017-12-14T22:08:14Z jmercouris: that too
2017-12-14T22:08:26Z jmercouris: they can use knowledge of the system state
2017-12-14T22:08:34Z Bike: so not literally the only purpose.
2017-12-14T22:08:48Z jmercouris: Okay, yes, I should avoid speaking in absolutes
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2017-12-14T22:09:44Z stylewarning: Fare: I have a little minimal example that I cannot get to work or that I do not understand.
2017-12-14T22:09:55Z Bike: you could do something dumb like (defmacro defunj (name lambda-list &body body) `(let ((counter 0)) (defun ,name ,lambda-list (when (> (incf counter) 10) (compile ',name)) ,@body))) and then you can define a function that's just interpreted at first and then compiled once it's run a lot.
2017-12-14T22:10:22Z jmercouris: Bike: That's actually a really good idea
2017-12-14T22:10:40Z jmercouris: Could make it even more sophisticated as well
2017-12-14T22:10:55Z jmercouris: have some sort of "probability" that some branch will be executed and compile or not compile different paths
2017-12-14T22:11:13Z stylewarning: why not compile everything
2017-12-14T22:11:19Z jasom: I thought the main reason for JITs is to allow efficient compilation of languages where the types are mostly fixed at runtime, but mostly unknown at compile time
2017-12-14T22:11:44Z jmercouris: jasom: No, the types in java are always known at compile time, so there is your first counter example
2017-12-14T22:11:55Z Bike: doesn't it have polymorphism?
2017-12-14T22:12:13Z jasom: jmercouris: java is polymorphic
2017-12-14T22:12:21Z jmercouris: Bike: True true, this is problematic
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2017-12-14T22:12:43Z jmercouris: Perhaps this is how they support polymorphism, they need JIT
2017-12-14T22:12:57Z jasom: similarly JIT techniques would be one way to make method displatch faster in lisp
2017-12-14T22:12:59Z dmiles: the reason for JVMs JIT i thought was because of limited memory, that it would be too much to compile the entire 9 million classes
2017-12-14T22:13:02Z Bike: you can do polymorphism without jit. it just makes it faster, hopefully. which is what jasom said.
2017-12-14T22:13:03Z aeth: jmercouris: I was more thinking about something like a modern JS-in-CL, which probably requires a fake JIT to support all the magic necessary to have somewhat competitive performance.
2017-12-14T22:13:09Z jmercouris: dmiles: Yes, true
2017-12-14T22:13:15Z Bike: i suppose this means beach's gf dispatch business is jit compilation. that's kind of neat.
2017-12-14T22:13:17Z aeth: JS is a language that simply does not give enough information to produce fast code without a JIT afaik
2017-12-14T22:13:20Z Bike: after a fashion.
2017-12-14T22:13:36Z jmercouris: aeth: Do you mean JS or Java?
2017-12-14T22:13:58Z aeth: JS
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2017-12-14T22:14:35Z dmiles: (the entire JDK and all the classes are "interpreted bytecode" ... some a few other langauges can be that way as well .. even lisp)
2017-12-14T22:14:38Z Bike: doing it for methods themselves would be a little trickier, you'd need to save method body sources, or at least enough of a source.
2017-12-14T22:15:26Z aeth: jmercouris: It's not just types, though, JS JITs take quadratic code and make it not quadratic. https://accidentallyquadratic.tumblr.com/post/142387131042/nodejs-left-pad
2017-12-14T22:16:00Z aeth: JS JITs are what you get when you take very bright minds and put them to work polishing a turd instead of creating the next generation of very high level declarative languages.
2017-12-14T22:16:08Z jasom: Bike: it's not JIT compilation, it's just iterated AOT compilation
2017-12-14T22:16:13Z Fare: stylewarning, what are you trying to do?
2017-12-14T22:16:21Z Bike: jasom: what is?
2017-12-14T22:16:26Z jasom: Bike: beach's GF dispatch
2017-12-14T22:16:41Z jmercouris: aeth: That's a little bit harsh
2017-12-14T22:16:47Z jasom: what SBCL currently does is closer to JIT; it caches calls to e.g. make-instance
2017-12-14T22:16:51Z Bike: the line seems kind of blurry to me.
2017-12-14T22:16:56Z aeth: jmercouris: JavaScript is one of the worst programming languages out there.
2017-12-14T22:16:56Z jmercouris: I have a lot of complaints about java, but it isn't the worst language in the world, it is very consistent for one, very structured
2017-12-14T22:17:05Z aeth: jmercouris: That people have made JavaScript passable is a miracle.
2017-12-14T22:17:11Z Bike: with beach's dispatch, if you call a gf with a combination of classes it's never been called with before, it compiles a new discriminating function.
2017-12-14T22:17:12Z jmercouris: aeth: I would agree with that statement
2017-12-14T22:17:14Z jasom: this is why ltk is way faster to startup if you create and teardown your GUI before saving your image btw
2017-12-14T22:17:20Z aeth: jmercouris: oh, again I was talking about JS's JIT, not Java's
2017-12-14T22:17:25Z jmercouris: Many JS apologists say "have you tried ES6", and the answer is no, nor do I care to
2017-12-14T22:17:30Z Bike: which is something that could definitely happen at runtime.
2017-12-14T22:17:41Z jmercouris: aeth: Ah okay, sorry for the confusion!
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2017-12-14T22:17:56Z stylewarning: Fare: I was trying to compile an application, and I thought static-program-op might do magic to make dynamically loaded libraries load faster. I suspect this isn't true (that would be too magical).
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2017-12-14T22:18:01Z Fare: stylewarning, can you successfully run the make-static.lisp script in workout-timer?
2017-12-14T22:18:06Z jasom: Bike: oh, I missed that part; I was just aware of the part where it used first-class global environments to inline the GF dispatch function and recompile the usage points at redefinition time.
2017-12-14T22:18:07Z stylewarning: Fare: No.
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2017-12-14T22:18:08Z jmercouris: THey should have kept the name as livescript
2017-12-14T22:18:18Z jmercouris: I don't understand how javascript isn't somehow a very blatant copyright infringement
2017-12-14T22:18:33Z Fare: stylewarning, wait --- by default static-program-op will still load your dynamic libraries dynamically
2017-12-14T22:18:33Z jasom: jmercouris: I think you mean trademark
2017-12-14T22:18:38Z Bike: jasom: um, i haven't heard of any such part, actually. that sounds more like sbcl make-instance, actually
2017-12-14T22:18:39Z jmercouris: jasom: Yes, that's what I meant
2017-12-14T22:18:50Z Bike: actually actually actually actually actually
2017-12-14T22:19:01Z Fare: you need to create a new kind of system that represents your C libraries
2017-12-14T22:19:04Z jmercouris: Bike: Did you type it out five times, or coyp and paste it?
2017-12-14T22:19:17Z Bike: i typed it out five times, as penance.
2017-12-14T22:19:23Z stylewarning: Fare: Yeah, I figured as much. In any case, I couldn't get this example to work. is it a non-sense example? I forgot the IN-PACKAGE form.  http://codepad.org/dlY8nyFR
2017-12-14T22:19:38Z jasom: Bike: the general idea was just that you could inline functions without regard to whether or not they might be redefined; GF dispatch is just a special case of this.
2017-12-14T22:19:40Z Fare: such that one of the output-files of compile-bundle-op for them is the .a file
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2017-12-14T22:20:35Z Bike: jasom: i'm referring to http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf which i don't believe involves environments or call sites.
2017-12-14T22:20:39Z aeth: jmercouris: In case I'm unclear, any use of a fake JIT (or would it count as a real JIT?) within CL would be for embedding JavaScript or perhaps Lua or maybe even Python in CL, ideally with competitive performance (probably somewhat slower, but hopefully acceptably slower) to modern JS engines, LuaJIT, or Pypy.
2017-12-14T22:20:52Z aeth: I'm not sure that there would be any use in doing the whole JVM in CL
2017-12-14T22:20:58Z aeth: Or if that would even be possible
2017-12-14T22:21:02Z Fare: was your sbcl compiled with the proper support?
2017-12-14T22:21:22Z Fare: I only just got a PR in CFFI to throw a sensible error message if you didn't
2017-12-14T22:21:26Z jmercouris: aeth: I was about to say "what would the advantage of that be?" then you qualified it at the end :D
2017-12-14T22:21:28Z Bike: jasom: which seems completely different from whatever you're talking about. i'm curious about it; i get the principle of course
2017-12-14T22:21:59Z Fare: if you got your CFFI from QL it quite probably doesn't have that patch yet
2017-12-14T22:22:00Z aeth: jmercouris: Running any one of those three, or all three with a sufficiently clever engine, would be incredibly useful because of how much code is in any of those. (Lua's probably the most obscure but it does have its niches where it is the dominant scripting language, especially games)
2017-12-14T22:22:10Z dmiles: see CLOAK (its a JVM in all Lisp)
2017-12-14T22:22:15Z Fare: I was bitten by that myself :-(
2017-12-14T22:22:41Z jmercouris: aeth: You could just run them in a subprocess and communicate over some IO channel, it'd be much easier than maintaining the spec /runtime for all these languages
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2017-12-14T22:23:39Z Fare: (uiop:featurep :SB-LINKABLE-RUNTIME) ?
2017-12-14T22:23:47Z aeth: jmercouris: A JavaScript JIT in CL with good interoperability with the host CL would be a huge win for any web browsers written in CL. So JS would be the most useful.
2017-12-14T22:24:00Z Fare: if not T, you need to recompile your SBCL.
2017-12-14T22:24:10Z jmercouris: aeth: For any web-browsers written in CL you say :D? You've piqued my interest :D
2017-12-14T22:24:52Z jmercouris: aeth: I mostly communicate with JSON right now, and the only way that I can get a value back from the browser is as a return from a javascript function, JS itself cannot directly invoke CL
2017-12-14T22:25:11Z jasom: There's already a JS 1.4 implementation in lisp
2017-12-14T22:25:18Z stylewarning: Fare, that was NIL. Thanks. I'll give it a try!
2017-12-14T22:25:41Z aeth: The trick would be having a JS engine that can both interoperate with CL and an existing rendering engine (the rendering engine would probably be *far* too complicated to write in CL unless you have VC funding to hire a team)
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2017-12-14T22:26:13Z aeth: jasom: The issue isn't JS, it's JITed JS (or Lua or Python). I know JS and Python both exist in CL, but not fast enough for all uses.
2017-12-14T22:26:40Z jmercouris: aeth: You would neeed A LOT of VC funding
2017-12-14T22:27:11Z jmercouris: aeth: Look at how much servo cost mozilla, and they aren't even close to done
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2017-12-14T22:27:25Z aeth: A fake JITed foo in the CL ecosystem should be somewhere between the actual real JIT and the non-JIT version(s) in performance. e.g. Pypy < some-cl-jit-pthon < Python, or LuaJIT < some-cl-jit-lua < Lua, or modern JS engines < some-cl-jit-js < traditional JS
2017-12-14T22:27:30Z jasom: aeth: yeah, cl-javascript is roughly spidermonkey levels of performance
2017-12-14T22:27:55Z aeth: Although I'm not sure if it is "fake JIT" or actually JIT.
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2017-12-14T22:28:33Z jasom: er TraceMonkey; I guess spidermonkey is the term for all versions
2017-12-14T22:29:27Z aeth: The *extra* problem (past the performance issue) that just applies to the embedded JS is if you can also make it useful for interfacing with non-CL code, i.e. the rendering engine. However that works. I don't really have a deep understanding of browser architecture.
2017-12-14T22:30:27Z aeth: i.e. An acceptable performing JS with JIT-style enhancements through introspection + runtime recompilation could probably work in a JS-to-CL compiler. But can it be used by jmercouris?
2017-12-14T22:30:59Z aeth: The existence of cl-javascript is a great thing, btw, because now that becomes one of the benchmarks to beat.
2017-12-14T22:32:40Z aeth: You probably could actually get comparable performance to a real JS JIT engine in JS-to-CL in SBCL if you write a bunch of SBCL-specific code, potentially including assembly using SBCL's inline assembly (is "inline assembly" the right term in a sexpy language?) extension to CL.
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2017-12-14T22:34:42Z jmercouris: aeth: JS -> CL Compiler, could provide some mild benefit
2017-12-14T22:35:02Z aeth: One of my extremely on-the-side side projects that I come back to every few months is writing a Scheme that compiles to CL. But it would actually be very interesting to instead do something Racket-style and try to embed many languages within a CL environment, rather than just one or a few.
2017-12-14T22:35:11Z jmercouris: I can think of a couple scenarios I have wanted such a behavior, it would allow better interop with existing JS scripts on the web
2017-12-14T22:35:13Z aeth: i.e. I'd like to one day abstract out the common code.
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2017-12-14T22:36:36Z aeth: One of my long term plans, especially for when my game engine doesn't consume almost all of my CL programming time, is to try to build up an interoperable language environment on top of CL. This exists to some limited extent to some limited other languages in implementation-specific ways... frequently just Prolog.
2017-12-14T22:37:16Z jmercouris: Have you made any progress on this?
2017-12-14T22:37:16Z aeth: s/to some limited extent to some limited other languages/to some limited extent, restricted to a few languages,/
2017-12-14T22:38:09Z aeth: jmercouris: I have written about 2/3 of a Scheme and about 90% of a Brainfuck, which has given me ideas. JS, Lua, and Python would be nice, but they're trickier because they'd almost certainly require using advanced CL features to do JIT-like things in order to be fast enough to be interesting implementations of those languages.
2017-12-14T22:38:38Z aeth: Prolog would be nice, too. dmiles (iirc) can tell me why that won't work in existing CL implementations.
2017-12-14T22:39:37Z aeth: A lot of this might just be fast only on SBCL, ideally with a slow path for other implementations (some libraries work like this already). Popularity of even just one of those embedded languages would pressure implementations to catch up with SBCL there.
2017-12-14T22:40:19Z jmercouris: Why do so many people prefer SBCL?
2017-12-14T22:40:48Z Xach: jmercouris: it is fast and actively maintained. it is free.
2017-12-14T22:40:50Z aeth: It would be hilariously meta if some of these languages had acceptable performance in ECL... because then you're embedding languages... in an embedded language. But that's actually what Guile was supposed to do when GNU initially pitched it as the standard GNU scripting language in the 1990s (still waiting on that)
2017-12-14T22:41:05Z dmiles: oh well think the best analogy is i cam up with is "imagine  taking an assembly language program that twiddles bitmasks and using bignum math to emulate the registers of the Intel-4930k CPU. You might just see some performance differences? "
2017-12-14T22:41:52Z dmiles: there has been a long thread on comp.lang.lisp about wanting to store bitmasks
2017-12-14T22:43:00Z dmiles: do this can be an example of where one outsmarted theemselves.. they might be better of just using a bitarray
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2017-12-14T22:43:54Z dmiles: use this as an analogy to trying to emulate the Prolog machine
2017-12-14T22:44:02Z dmiles: (i use)
2017-12-14T22:44:12Z aeth: jmercouris: Ideally, the embedded languages system will run on SBCL, CCL, and ECL acceptably, and in that order of performance (but ECL surprises me all the time when compared to CCL, so there might be a contest for 2nd place in performance). CLISP will probably never run them performantly and ABCL wouldn't be a priority because it can interface with JVM languages.
2017-12-14T22:44:29Z aeth: But I'm going to just start with a Scheme because it doesn't need a JIT, unlike most of the other interesting scripting languages.
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2017-12-14T22:45:12Z jmercouris: What is your end goal in doing this? Do you enjoy the project or do you have some product in mind?
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2017-12-14T22:46:16Z aeth: My primary focus right now is making a game engine that can run in Common Lisp. A long term goal of making implementations of other, potentially more popular, languages that very easily interface with Common Lisp helps that primary objective.
2017-12-14T22:46:26Z aeth: e.g. if you want to mod Minecraft and you hate Java, you have other options.
2017-12-14T22:46:34Z jmercouris: aeth: Are you and shinmera working together?
2017-12-14T22:46:45Z aeth: No, there are about 5 or 6 independent CL engine projects.
2017-12-14T22:46:55Z akkad: like Islisp?
2017-12-14T22:46:57Z jmercouris: Is there a reason you are not working together?
2017-12-14T22:47:02Z antoszka: Are you guys all hanging around #lispgames, though?
2017-12-14T22:47:09Z aeth: Most of us
2017-12-14T22:47:15Z antoszka: cool
2017-12-14T22:47:48Z jmercouris: I'm just saying, instead of 5 or 6 engines, if you all focused your efforts, you might have a very powerful engine
2017-12-14T22:48:11Z jmercouris: of course the different engines will have different strengths, paradigms, philosophies, etc
2017-12-14T22:48:14Z aeth: jmercouris: I started before any other game engines existed except for dto's 2D engines. Also, my approach is very different. e.g. My goal is to have a no-consing game loop so a user of the library could do a call to the GC, disable the GC, and run it between levels on loading screens or whatever, if they choose to (or they can cons in their own code if they choose to, giving them more space on the heap before problems pop up)
2017-12-14T22:49:02Z aeth: My goal for no-consing has required me to reinvent the wheel quite a bit... and I am going to have to eventually replace cl-sdl2 if I am going to reach 0 consing in my game loop. (All of my own code doesn't cons in the game loop)
2017-12-14T22:49:29Z jmercouris: So, all of this to improve performance?
2017-12-14T22:49:53Z aeth: (Note that any implementations of scripting languages will probably cons by their semantics, so the no-consing won't apply to any design of those. And the GC would probably have to be run if you use those.)
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2017-12-14T22:50:44Z aeth: jmercouris: I'm not sure if I have the highest performing code, but it performs pretty fast and makes some unusual decisions in the name of no consing, e.g. I use multiple return values for vectors of size 3 and quaternions. (It'd be a bit too much to use those for 4x4 matrices, so I just declare those dynamic extent and hope for a stack allocation.)
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2017-12-14T22:51:12Z aeth: i.e. during my game loop, I do almost no allocations, except the few cases where I need to do stack allocations (and when I use cl-sdl2 to handle input, which conses, unfortunately)
2017-12-14T22:51:49Z jmercouris: that's pretty impressive
2017-12-14T22:51:54Z aeth: Well, that means I preallocate a lot.
2017-12-14T22:52:01Z jmercouris: This is best
2017-12-14T22:52:09Z jmercouris: I've made a few game engines myself (none in lisp)
2017-12-14T22:52:19Z jmercouris: and I've never had a game loop without allocation
2017-12-14T22:52:35Z jmercouris: of course all assets beforehand, and as much pooling as possible, but nonetheless always some allocation somewhere
2017-12-14T22:53:19Z aeth: The event system is going to be tricky. I'm thinking of using a custom stream that uses a fixed-size byte buffer. So that means I'm *not* going to have the fastest engine if I do that, since there'll be a serialization/deserialization cost. But, on the plus side, that make eventually breaking the code up over the network trivial.
2017-12-14T22:53:41Z aeth: Also, I'm not sure if I cons in CCL and ECL. I don't think they provide enough profiling information as SBCL.
2017-12-14T22:54:07Z aeth: With SBCL, I can be pretty sure that if I didn't accidentally introduce new consing, all of my game loop consing right now is in the cl-sdl2 library, which I will probably have to replace eventually.
2017-12-14T22:54:26Z aeth: That's why SBCL is so powerful. That's some pretty good profiling.
2017-12-14T22:54:37Z aeth: (And disassembly, too, just to be safe.)
2017-12-14T22:55:37Z aeth: I'm not sure if my double-float hack will work on all implementations. In SBCL, I can just work with arrays of double float and as long as I only have constant double floats, double float values stored in an array, or coerce the double floats to something else, then those double floats don't cons! It's surprising to me, actually.
2017-12-14T22:56:04Z Xach: aeth: using preallocated arrays like that is, i believe, an old-ish hack.
2017-12-14T22:56:14Z aeth: I don't use double floats in many places, and I can't generalize my vector math to doubles because I use multiple return values to avoid consing with single-floats, and that won't work with double floats.
2017-12-14T22:56:43Z aeth: Unless I extend my multiple return value system to have stack-allocated "registers" of double-floats
2017-12-14T22:56:46Z aeth: or soething
2017-12-14T22:56:49Z aeth: s/soething/something/
2017-12-14T22:57:04Z Xach: the bit-* functions do something a little along those lines
2017-12-14T22:58:47Z aeth: ah
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2017-12-14T22:59:44Z aeth: One other place that will be tricky, probably is text for the UI. I can't preallocate everything there. Maybe I'll have to use some buffer system.
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2017-12-14T23:44:02Z Fare: stylewarning, all good now?
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2017-12-15T00:06:34Z stylewarning: Fare: I was trying to find in the SBCL docs how to enable the feature.
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2017-12-15T00:18:28Z pillton: jasom: Specialization-store can inline calls to "methods" if there is sufficient type information available.
2017-12-15T00:19:59Z pillton: jasom: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-3:-Compile-Time-Support
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2017-12-15T01:27:57Z jasom: anyone know if cl-sqlite is still being developed, and if so, where to report bugs?  The mailing-list link on the webpage is broken...
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2017-12-15T02:12:54Z Fare: stylewarning, see the mysbcl function in fare-scripts/languages
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2017-12-15T02:13:41Z Fare: basically, when you invoke sh make.sh, pass the argument --with-sb-linkable-runtime
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2017-12-15T02:35:01Z asarch: One very very very stupid question: Is Mr. Peter Seibel around here? (I hope not)
2017-12-15T02:35:09Z asarch hides
2017-12-15T02:36:31Z antonv: Wow, http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ doesn't provide hunchentoot documentation anymore
2017-12-15T02:36:51Z Zhivago: Did he touch you somewhere inappropriate?
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2017-12-15T02:53:06Z myrkraverk: My very first asdf system has a name conflict whenever I re-compile it, when I load it with (ql:quickload) however, on subsequent loads, it succeeds.
2017-12-15T02:53:12Z myrkraverk: Is there a way to fix this?
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2017-12-15T02:54:23Z myrkraverk: That is, I have a name conflict in :common-lisp-user and :my-package when I load it with (ql:quickload :my-package) and it needs to compile source file again.
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2017-12-15T02:57:30Z myrkraverk: I'll try to make a simple example later.
2017-12-15T02:59:16Z Xach: myrkraverk: name conflicts are pretty straightforward to work out up front.
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2017-12-15T03:28:02Z Xach: but
2017-12-15T03:28:15Z Xach: common-lisp-user is a red flag.
2017-12-15T03:28:32Z Xach: it should generally be avoided in source files and user packages
2017-12-15T03:33:40Z Fare: it should probably be avoided everywhere.
2017-12-15T03:34:11Z Fare: except maybe format ~/methods/ ?
2017-12-15T03:34:56Z Fare: asarch, he hasn't been in #lisp in many years. Not sure he uses it much if at all these days.
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2017-12-15T04:06:13Z asarch: Phew!
2017-12-15T04:06:18Z asarch: Thank you Fare
2017-12-15T04:06:25Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2017-12-15T04:06:55Z aeth: Not many years, iirc he was here a few years ago and asked a bunch of questions.
2017-12-15T04:07:06Z aeth: I think mostly about what the interesting libraries are these days
2017-12-15T04:08:03Z asarch: What book is for Common Lisp like the "The C++ Programming Language" is for C++?
2017-12-15T04:08:29Z asarch: A book that you can use as a reference manual (how to open files, how to list directories, etc)
2017-12-15T04:08:30Z asarch: ?
2017-12-15T04:09:35Z aeth: PCL is more of an introduction. Common Lisp Recipes (same publisher, different author) is more of a reference. I don't think it's online. The ebook was on sale for $10 on Black Friday. So... you'd have to wait almost a year
2017-12-15T04:11:42Z asarch: Oh :-(
2017-12-15T04:11:49Z akkad: it's pretty cheap
2017-12-15T04:12:14Z asarch: It's ~$55 on Amazon
2017-12-15T04:12:29Z aeth: $54.99 on the publisher's site (DRM-free)
2017-12-15T04:12:34Z aeth: https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484211779
2017-12-15T04:12:39Z aeth: so... you have to wait for a sale.
2017-12-15T04:13:02Z aeth: 80% off is quite a bit of a difference
2017-12-15T04:13:08Z Fare: asarch, PCL is out-of-date regarding things like "opening files". :-/
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2017-12-15T04:15:31Z asarch: Out of date?!
2017-12-15T04:15:51Z asarch: Then what book should I use?
2017-12-15T04:16:50Z aeth: The core language features of Common Lisp haven't been changed in over two decades. The language extensions are a mix between just as old as the language (things that didn't get in the standard, but could have) and fairly new things. They still move fairly slowly. But everything else is just like any other programming language, and it changes over time.
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2017-12-15T04:17:35Z aeth: PCL, noting where it is out of date, is still probably your best option
2017-12-15T04:17:47Z aeth: There are other books but they're mostly older
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2017-12-15T04:18:32Z asarch: I see
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2017-12-15T04:20:13Z asarch: I found this yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQy22qPH7i4
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2017-12-15T04:50:09Z pierpa: The best reference manual for CL is CLTLII + checking CLHS to be sure particular things haven't changed.
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2017-12-15T04:53:27Z asarch: Thank you pierpa
2017-12-15T04:53:31Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-15T04:53:37Z pierpa: yw :)
2017-12-15T04:53:41Z asarch takes notes...
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2017-12-15T05:20:40Z Fare: asarch, you should know which libraries to use and read their documentation online.
2017-12-15T05:20:54Z Fare: quickref.common-lisp.net is a good starting point.
2017-12-15T05:21:20Z Fare: However, it doesn't properly handle UIOP, at this time.
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2017-12-15T06:03:30Z asarch: I see
2017-12-15T06:03:40Z asarch: Thank you
2017-12-15T06:04:52Z asarch: One stupid question: I start sblc and then type a few expressions, is it possible to save them into a file?
2017-12-15T06:05:04Z asarch: (Save the sbcl history into a file)
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2017-12-15T06:17:42Z myrkraverk: asarch: linedit can do that for you.
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2017-12-15T06:19:12Z myrkraverk: For example I have it configured with :history #p"~/.sbcl.history" ; in my .sbclrc
2017-12-15T06:19:26Z asarch: Thank you myrkraverk
2017-12-15T06:19:31Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2017-12-15T06:25:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-15T06:25:33Z asarch: Bonjour!
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2017-12-15T06:26:23Z asarch: Bonjour monsieur, comment allez-vous?
2017-12-15T06:26:47Z beach: asarch: Good French, but how I am is off topic. :)
2017-12-15T06:29:59Z asarch: Ok. À votre santé! o/
2017-12-15T06:30:08Z beach: Thanks!
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2017-12-15T06:42:30Z asarch: See you!
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2017-12-15T06:52:05Z loke: asarYou should have asked (feeling-good-p bech)
2017-12-15T06:52:16Z loke: I mean (feeling-good-p 'beach)
2017-12-15T06:52:25Z loke: Instantly on-topic.
2017-12-15T06:55:30Z Zhivago: Beach reduced to a mere symbol ...
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2017-12-15T06:57:17Z loke: Zhivago: oops. I never thought abou tit that way
2017-12-15T06:57:31Z loke: But it _is_ interned! Constant. Always there for us.
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2017-12-15T07:17:17Z smokeink: Is there any easy/idiomatic way to find all symbols that are fbound to some function ?
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2017-12-15T07:20:50Z beach: clhs do-all-symbols
2017-12-15T07:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2017-12-15T07:20:56Z beach: clhs fboundp
2017-12-15T07:20:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm
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2017-12-15T07:25:45Z smokeink: yeah that worked http://pastecode.ru/e866d9/   , thanks
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2017-12-15T07:29:20Z loke: Does anyone know of a nice library that can parse infix expressions as strings and evaluate them?
2017-12-15T07:29:37Z loke: Basically, something like "3+5*2" ⇒ 13
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2017-12-15T07:32:12Z myrkraverk: It's basically the tutorial in most compiler books, but I don't know about a library for it.
2017-12-15T07:32:55Z myrkraverk: What I want right now is to test if more than one flag is true.
2017-12-15T07:33:28Z myrkraverk: As in, flag1 flag2 flag3 are meant to be mutually exclusive and so far, each is a simple parameter.
2017-12-15T07:33:33Z loke: Oh, I've done it in the past. And I could easily do it again (and I might).
2017-12-15T07:33:48Z myrkraverk: For two, I can just use (and flag1 flag2) but it gets harder when there are 3 or more.
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2017-12-15T07:34:49Z loke: myrkraverk: (> (count-if-not #'identity THE-LIST) 1)
2017-12-15T07:35:19Z myrkraverk: Of course there's something simple to do it.  I was thinking about rolling my own with LOOP.
2017-12-15T07:35:56Z loke: If you have lots of flags, LOOP witll be more efficient as it will allow you to exit early.
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2017-12-15T07:42:09Z myrkraverk: Right now, only 3
2017-12-15T07:42:20Z myrkraverk: clhs count
2017-12-15T07:42:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm
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2017-12-15T09:00:31Z hajovonta: hi
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2017-12-15T09:09:20Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2017-12-15T10:18:04Z jmercouris: How can I have a macro which defines multiple top level forms?
2017-12-15T10:18:16Z beach: Use PROGN.
2017-12-15T10:18:48Z jmercouris: like this: `(progn (topform1) (topform2)?
2017-12-15T10:18:55Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-15T10:18:58Z shka: yes
2017-12-15T10:19:03Z jmercouris: Ok, thank you
2017-12-15T10:19:04Z shka: hi beach
2017-12-15T10:19:14Z beach: Hello shka.
2017-12-15T10:19:18Z beach: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-12-15T10:19:18Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-12-15T10:19:39Z beach: jmercouris: Item 3 of that ↑ page.
2017-12-15T10:19:47Z jmercouris: Ok, I will take a look, thank you
2017-12-15T10:20:01Z jmercouris: Ah, I see
2017-12-15T10:20:03Z jmercouris: I didn't know that about progn
2017-12-15T10:20:13Z beach: Now you do.
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2017-12-15T11:13:44Z loke wrote a Sexp parser in Eliir.
2017-12-15T11:13:47Z loke: Elixir
2017-12-15T11:14:10Z myrkraverk: I read that as "sex parser" and was intrigued for a little bit.
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2017-12-15T11:16:10Z jackdaniel: elixir? sex parser? hm
2017-12-15T11:16:17Z jackdaniel: let's spread the word ;-)
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2017-12-15T11:18:01Z jack_rabbit: sex parser. spread.
2017-12-15T11:18:09Z jack_rabbit: There's a joke there, I just know it.
2017-12-15T11:18:21Z pjb: myrkraverk: you understand the attrackion of lisp.
2017-12-15T11:19:12Z jmercouris: What's the origin of the term S-exp?
2017-12-15T11:20:01Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression
2017-12-15T11:21:39Z jmercouris: Again though, what is the origin of "sybmolic expression"
2017-12-15T11:21:44Z jmercouris: aren't all expressions symbolic expressions?
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2017-12-15T11:21:56Z jmercouris: Isnt 1+1 a symbolic expression, 1, and + are symbols are they not?
2017-12-15T11:22:03Z jmercouris: Isn't this sentence a symbolic expression?
2017-12-15T11:22:22Z jmercouris: every letter is a symbol, and together they compose words which are also symbols which ultimately express something
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2017-12-15T11:23:38Z jmercouris: not sure what I am getting at here, but the term S-exp has always bothered me
2017-12-15T11:23:44Z jmercouris: Didn't feel like a good name
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2017-12-15T11:24:00Z jmercouris: I would call them N-lists or something instead
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2017-12-15T11:24:48Z jackdaniel: sexp is more sexy
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2017-12-15T11:27:03Z jmercouris: no one could argue that
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2017-12-15T11:30:14Z jmercouris: loke: How is elixir btw, how are you liking it?
2017-12-15T11:30:30Z jmercouris will disconnect shortly, but will check logs
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2017-12-15T11:34:15Z pjb: jmercouris: compare: (red green blue) with {650,540,460}.
2017-12-15T11:34:27Z pjb: jmercouris: the first is a list of symbol, it's a symbolic expression.
2017-12-15T11:34:40Z pjb: jmercouris: the second is a literal vector of int, it's not a symbolic expression.
2017-12-15T11:34:52Z pjb: jmercouris: both represent something similar (three colors).
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2017-12-15T11:36:03Z pjb: jmercouris: I would argue the symbolic expression is more precise, by being more fuzzy on the actual ranges of frequency, and also, ontologically, since an actual perceived color (light frequency) can be different from the actual color of the surface, under light conditions.
2017-12-15T11:36:08Z Zhivago: s-exp describes a particular kind of grammar.
2017-12-15T11:36:44Z Zhivago: It's not a very interesting grammar -- just one composed of atoms and forms, where a form is a list of atoms or forms.
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2017-12-15T11:37:14Z Zhivago: So the examples above, such as 1 + 1 don't qualify.
2017-12-15T11:37:21Z pjb: and 1+1 is a symbol.
2017-12-15T11:37:27Z pjb: (symbolp '1+1) #| --> t |#
2017-12-15T11:37:35Z jackdaniel: what about #'foo ?
2017-12-15T11:37:41Z jackdaniel: or, #' foo
2017-12-15T11:37:45Z Zhivago: #'foo is shorthand for (function foo).
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2017-12-15T11:37:51Z pjb: any lisp data printed readably is a symbolic expression!
2017-12-15T11:38:00Z Zhivago: (function foo) is a s-exp.
2017-12-15T11:38:30Z jackdaniel: my point is exactly that – are shorthands for forms also considered s-expressions?
2017-12-15T11:38:45Z pjb: Sure.
2017-12-15T11:38:49Z Zhivago: No, but what they are converted to may be.
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2017-12-15T11:38:59Z jackdaniel: right
2017-12-15T11:39:20Z jackdaniel: (thanks)
2017-12-15T11:39:25Z pjb: jackdaniel: now you always have the ambiguity between the textual form and the read form.  But formally you can accept the textual form under those definitions.
2017-12-15T11:39:37Z pjb: as long as you take into account the grammar of the reader macros.
2017-12-15T11:39:53Z pjb: Of course, this may be complex, if you redefine reader macros in #.
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2017-12-15T11:40:19Z pjb: (#.(set-macro-character #\/ 'read-something) / what will be read?)
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2017-12-15T11:40:55Z Zhivago: Fortunately, reader macros aren't part of the definition of symbolic expressions, so we can exclude those.
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2017-12-15T11:42:09Z pjb: Then you consider the read form, not the textual form.
2017-12-15T11:42:45Z pjb: the usual definition of sexp := atom | ( sexp… ) . wouldn't take into account circular structures.
2017-12-15T11:43:03Z Zhivago: We must certainly exclude the textual expression of CL from s-exps.
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2017-12-15T11:43:16Z shka: lol
2017-12-15T11:43:25Z shka: i see that channel is as productive as always :D
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2017-12-15T11:43:31Z Zhivago: Nothing prevents cyclic form structures in the basic definition.
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2017-12-15T11:43:42Z pjb: The clhs glossary doesn't have "symbolic expression".
2017-12-15T11:43:46Z kolb: the current onslaught of "let me document all your projects using my $docgenerator" has to stop -.-
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2017-12-15T11:44:18Z jackdaniel: lubie placki ;)
2017-12-15T11:44:50Z kolb: No I have two zombie sites that *mis*-render the polished docs of my projects without me ever having opted in to that, and seemlingly no way to make them *stop*.
2017-12-15T11:44:59Z Zhivago: Just go back to the Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and their Computation by Machine paper. :)
2017-12-15T11:45:07Z kolb: Now*
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2017-12-15T11:45:54Z kolb: quickdocs and quickref are imho the CL equivalent of yellow-pages sites that come up when you google for something. It’s *never* the site you are looking for. They are content mills.
2017-12-15T11:46:16Z kolb is annoyed
2017-12-15T11:46:29Z Zhivago: I suggest writing a stern letter.
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2017-12-15T11:47:39Z kolb: Zhivago: to whom? quickdocs is unmaintained and just a ghost ship floating the S3, quickref probably has way other priorities than me and my polished docs, and was done in an internship
2017-12-15T11:48:00Z Zhivago: To the editor.
2017-12-15T11:48:33Z kolb: There is no editor, that’s the whole point. These projects just blindly scrape quicklisp and dump the result on the net.
2017-12-15T11:48:43Z kolb: There is no QA, or opt-in.
2017-12-15T11:49:00Z kolb: Your project is on QL, well shit out of luck.
2017-12-15T11:49:26Z Zhivago: Someone is paying for them to stay up -- write them a stern letter.
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2017-12-15T11:49:57Z kolb: For quickdocs we have already established that there is noone who will answer you.
2017-12-15T11:50:03Z kolb: See the GH project.
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2017-12-15T11:51:21Z kolb: Also my favourite part of nowadays web: trying to find the email address of someone.
2017-12-15T11:51:24Z Xach: kolb: What is your project?
2017-12-15T11:51:28Z Xach: Or projects?
2017-12-15T11:51:43Z kolb: Xach: how does that matter? There are a few.
2017-12-15T11:51:58Z Zhivago: kolb: Do you want to do a better job, or just not see those results in google searches?
2017-12-15T11:52:07Z Xach: kolb: If you don't wish them to be in quickdocs and quickref, I can help remove them.
2017-12-15T11:52:28Z Fare: kolb: I'm sure Didier Verna, who oversaw quickref, will be glad to accommodate your requests for an API to customize how quickref extracts documentation for you.
2017-12-15T11:52:31Z kolb: Xach: you mean from QuickLisp? Yeah no, thanks.
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2017-12-15T11:55:23Z kolb: Zhivago: I want the announcement of $docportal to include a reasoning of 1) why its supposed to supersede existing broken $docportal, 2) how they deal with the natural issue that there is no defined grammar for docstrings, 3) document a way to opt-in/out (the "I scrape facebook and host profiles" model is not new, and neither are the issues with it)
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2017-12-15T11:55:41Z kolb: Sorry for ranting guys. Obviously I will not write a stern, but friendly letter, detailing my issues.
2017-12-15T11:56:16Z Xach: I think the projects are done in good faith to improve the experience of people trying to find and use documentation. I think shortcomings are worth discussing.
2017-12-15T11:57:14Z kolb: Nobody is saying this is hostile
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2017-12-15T11:57:48Z Zhivago: Perhaps what you rally want is a link from the documentatoin on those sites back to your site?
2017-12-15T11:58:03Z kolb: Zhivago: no I don’t care about that at all
2017-12-15T11:58:11Z Xach: kolb: The way you describe the effort makes it sound maliciously lazy and incompetent.
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2017-12-15T11:58:55Z jmercouris: pjb: But, consider that 650, 540, and 460 are also composed of symbol
2017-12-15T11:59:11Z kolb: Xach: it is objectively neglecting, since these projects expect the content providers to run after the content farm owners to fix issues.
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2017-12-15T11:59:22Z pjb: jmercouris: of course, you can also do numeric computation in lisp :-)
2017-12-15T11:59:24Z jmercouris: pjb: symbol: a mark or character used as a conventional representation of an object
2017-12-15T11:59:36Z Xach: I've found quickdocs pretty helpful in the past. I was under the impression it was actively maintained.
2017-12-15T11:59:46Z Fare: kolb: if you provide a declarative way to specify what documentation convention a given system uses, you can help solve the issue.
2017-12-15T11:59:46Z jmercouris: I don't mean symbol as in the common lisp usage of symbol, but the generic definition of symbol
2017-12-15T11:59:56Z Xach: It's nice to search for e.g. "decode base64" and get a handful of potentially useful results in a single place.
2017-12-15T12:00:00Z jmercouris: unless of course we say that within S-exp, we define symbol to have a meaning specific to the context of common lisp
2017-12-15T12:00:01Z kolb: Xach: quickdocs doesn’t understand encodings
2017-12-15T12:00:03Z Xach: I don't generally use the reference docs there.
2017-12-15T12:00:11Z Zhivago: jmercouris: 650 is an atom, 650 is also a symbol. Why does this matter?
2017-12-15T12:00:21Z Xach: I find it more useful than a google search.
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2017-12-15T12:00:28Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Outside of the context of common lisp exists a definition of symbol, that's the one I'm using
2017-12-15T12:00:38Z jmercouris: On the wiki page, they do not redefine symbol
2017-12-15T12:00:59Z jmercouris: It doesn't really matter, I just thought it was an interesting discussion
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2017-12-15T12:01:40Z kolb: I don’t want to take quickdocs/quickref from you guys. I just don’t want my polished documentation to be mangled by it. I put a lot of work into hosting and working on my docs. And when people find them on quick$foo instead of my site, they will think its broken.
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2017-12-15T12:02:36Z kolb: Fare: how would I do that?
2017-12-15T12:02:40Z Xach: kolb: That sounds pretty reasonable.
2017-12-15T12:03:21Z Zhivago: kolb: So, isn't a link from those entries back to your site the solution?
2017-12-15T12:03:42Z kolb: Xach: my problem is not with the concept, my problem is that its auto-opt-in and now I am forced to run after two projects to fix things. I.e. work out of nowhere.
2017-12-15T12:04:07Z kolb: Zhivago: no its not, since they still have broken renderings of my docs.
2017-12-15T12:04:20Z Xach: kolb: I think that is a consequence of licensing to some degree.
2017-12-15T12:04:21Z Zhivago: jmercouris: Why are you talking about s-exps in terms of symbols rather than atoms?
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2017-12-15T12:04:45Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I'm just taking the name "Symbolic Expression" and saying that all expressions that are communication involve symbols
2017-12-15T12:04:51Z Zhivago: kolb: But they would have a way to find the non-broken docs.
2017-12-15T12:05:02Z jmercouris: We cannot communicate, we cannot speak without symbols of any kind
2017-12-15T12:05:25Z jmercouris: ALL expressions of any kind involve symbols
2017-12-15T12:05:37Z jmercouris: (do not think Lisp symbols when I say symbols)
2017-12-15T12:05:45Z jmercouris: therefore, the term S-EXP, is not a good one
2017-12-15T12:05:46Z pjb: jmercouris: the point is that S-expression is for data, and M-expression is for code.  See http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html
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2017-12-15T12:06:04Z kolb: Xach: the licensing makes this not-illegal, but I am not talking abour prosecuting people. I am asking for decency.
2017-12-15T12:06:06Z jmercouris: pjb: I don't disagree, and I get your guys' point
2017-12-15T12:06:17Z jmercouris: I'm just saying they should be called N-lists
2017-12-15T12:06:25Z Zhivago: Well, that's obviously nonsense -- we can communicate via sound waves. Those don't involve symbols per se.
2017-12-15T12:06:48Z Xach: kolb: right - but I mean that you could also end up with a hundred sites copying your work in bad faith with little recourse.
2017-12-15T12:06:54Z jmercouris: Zhivago: The cumulation of those sound waves over time translate to a symbol
2017-12-15T12:07:09Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Changing the medium does not change the fact that the sound "the" is a symbol for a concept
2017-12-15T12:07:25Z Zhivago: So you listen to music symbolically?
2017-12-15T12:07:27Z pjb: jmercouris: nope, it translates to activated neurons in the brains.
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2017-12-15T12:07:44Z jmercouris: kolb: I would be interested in a grammar for docstrings that was standardized
2017-12-15T12:07:59Z kolb: jmercouris: I wouldn’t
2017-12-15T12:08:04Z jmercouris: pjb: Yes, in a way :P
2017-12-15T12:08:07Z pjb: symbols are elaborated at the conscious level in a later stage.
2017-12-15T12:08:11Z jmercouris: kolb: Can you explain your reasoning?
2017-12-15T12:08:24Z Zhivago: What is the N in N-exp supposed to mean?
2017-12-15T12:08:32Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I said N-lists
2017-12-15T12:08:36Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Nested lists
2017-12-15T12:08:39Z kolb: jmercouris: I probably wouldn’t like the grammar, and I already have a formal language I use in my docstrings
2017-12-15T12:08:57Z jmercouris: kolb: That's honestly not a compelling reason
2017-12-15T12:09:20Z kolb: jmercouris: the parser / renderer are GPLed and on QL, what we are missing imho is a way do say 'render my docs using X' in as ASDF file
2017-12-15T12:09:38Z Zhivago: Nested lists of what?
2017-12-15T12:09:47Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Does it matter what they are composed of?
2017-12-15T12:09:49Z kolb: jmercouris: what makes you say that?
2017-12-15T12:09:59Z jmercouris: kolb: I'm a huge fan of standards :D
2017-12-15T12:10:02Z Zhivago: Sure -- are they lists of cheese or cups of tea?
2017-12-15T12:10:05Z kolb: jmercouris: i.e. why do you think its a good idea to force everyone to use the same language?
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2017-12-15T12:10:10Z jmercouris: Zhivago: If you want, why not?
2017-12-15T12:10:18Z Xach: kolb: it reminds me a little bit of https://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html
2017-12-15T12:10:24Z Zhivago: Then I don't see how they apply to lisp.
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2017-12-15T12:10:38Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Who says S-EXP only apply to lisp?
2017-12-15T12:10:40Z kolb: Xach: just because you can get away with something does not mean its a good idea to do, or that it necessarily has to happen / be the status quo. I don’t do politics in terms of game theory.
2017-12-15T12:10:41Z Zhivago: Lisp doesn't handle cheese or cups or tea -- only symbolic references to such.
2017-12-15T12:10:56Z jmercouris: Zhivago: So in some way, it handles them via a symbol, a reference
2017-12-15T12:11:10Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Why might I not have (cup (milk sugar tea))?
2017-12-15T12:11:11Z Zhivago: Meaning that these are lists of symbols and lists?
2017-12-15T12:11:20Z Xach: kolb: right, i mean your options of reactions and how much they can do are limited by your choice of licensing and the intentions of the people who have done something you don't like.
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2017-12-15T12:11:28Z Zhivago: Bringing us back to s-exps? :)
2017-12-15T12:11:37Z jmercouris: Zhivago: No no no, we call them N-lists now :P
2017-12-15T12:12:07Z Zhivago: I don't know how black people will feel about that.
2017-12-15T12:12:15Z kolb: Xach: well no, fundamentally I am not looking for ways to coerce people to follow my will. I want us to agree on what’s cool and what’s not cool.
2017-12-15T12:12:16Z Xach: kolb: https://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html springs to mind a bit - i understand both positions and which one i find least objectionable depends on my short-term goals in a particular situation
2017-12-15T12:12:47Z Zhivago: kolb: What if everyone agrees on what is cool except for you?
2017-12-15T12:13:11Z jmercouris: Zhivago: what about NestLists, or will have problems with Nestle?
2017-12-15T12:13:20Z kolb: I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t know didier and knew him to be reasonable
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2017-12-15T12:13:40Z kolb: Zhivago: then there is almost concensus
2017-12-15T12:13:45Z kolb: consensus*
2017-12-15T12:14:06Z Zhivago: Being associated with Nestle would probably be bad.
2017-12-15T12:15:51Z jmercouris: Probably :D
2017-12-15T12:16:14Z Zhivago: kolb: How do those projects break your documentation? Do you have a link to one of the breakages?
2017-12-15T12:17:46Z jmercouris: kolb: Whenever you publish your content publicly, on a license that permits access to it, people can do with it as they wish, if you don't want people to reproduce parts of it etc, then write clauses in your license
2017-12-15T12:18:26Z jmercouris: I haven't checked quickref, but I they probably include a link to the source / the license
2017-12-15T12:18:30Z kolb: jmercouris: yes, yes, I know, when we have no rulers everybody will start murdering each other
2017-12-15T12:18:31Z jmercouris: s/i//
2017-12-15T12:19:20Z kolb: Xach: standards can be nice at the edges, but I don’t think how you write your docs is an "edge". There are many reasons why you would want choice in that regard, and I would consider a coercive approach to unifying the CL documentation landscape highly problematic. What you are seeing happening in Quickdocs/Quickref are already sympthoms of ossification.
2017-12-15T12:20:05Z kolb: I love the fact that everyone in the CL world rolls their own documentation solution. I hate the fact that some want to become standard.
2017-12-15T12:20:33Z kolb: I would back a standard interface for converting between languages though, but that is a hard problem.
2017-12-15T12:20:38Z jmercouris: Actually, Xach could pretty much dictate how CL documentation would be since he is the bus-factor 1 of Quicklisp, maybe though if he was too strict people would fork Quicklisp or something
2017-12-15T12:20:54Z Xach: kolb: Do you discuss it here to vent cathartically or is it a real effort to change the minds of the people who work on quickdocs and quickref?
2017-12-15T12:21:30Z kolb: Xach: at this point I am replying to you guys
2017-12-15T12:21:36Z p_l: kolb: I'd argue that quickref, being for reference manuals, is a good idea. Let people write *good* user manual in whatever way they want, and have a slightly advanced variant of docstrings quickly searchable
2017-12-15T12:21:38Z Xach: kolb: how about at the beginning?
2017-12-15T12:21:57Z kolb: Xach: like I said, venting
2017-12-15T12:22:38Z Xach: Ok.
2017-12-15T12:22:42Z kolb: p_l: I repeat again: I don’t want these projects to disappear, I am annoyed by the way they handle some specifics.
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2017-12-15T12:25:00Z myrkraverk: Mostly, what I've been doing lately is undocumented (sb-posix symbols)
2017-12-15T12:25:13Z myrkraverk: Also, py-configparser.
2017-12-15T12:25:49Z kolb: Xach: I would be interested in talking about how we could organize these kinds of things around the common "database" Quicklisp. I.e. I assume there is a way to include metadata in the DB these Quick* projects scrape. We could propose a way to signal a) if you prefefer your proect to be included in Quick* or not, b) i.e. how to produce HTML for you project c) ...
2017-12-15T12:26:01Z myrkraverk: And since I don't have anything on QL (yet) I don't care so much about reference aggregators.
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2017-12-15T12:27:07Z kolb: Xach: i.e. with a way to express opt-in/out of the QL database, it would be easier for consumers of the database to respect their upstreams
2017-12-15T12:28:21Z myrkraverk: I find the idea of specifying what docstring-to-html to use, by aggregators, but I wonder how?  Afaik, QL is just based on ASDF, and that doesn't have anything resembling such custom tags that I know of.
2017-12-15T12:29:15Z Xach: kolb: I can imagine some mechanisms, like creating a file with a special name in the repo or something.
2017-12-15T12:32:03Z jmercouris: that's actually been one of the reasons I have not wrote a single docstring (outside of defparameter defvar) in my project, I don't know which way is the best
2017-12-15T12:32:17Z jmercouris: if there was a dominant way I could be sure will not require me a rewrite in the future, I would do it
2017-12-15T12:32:44Z kolb: jmercouris: that’s crazy
2017-12-15T12:32:51Z myrkraverk: jmercouris: I try to write the docstrings in a way that'll make it useful to use the function; so I don't have to read the source code, possibly years later, to re-use it.
2017-12-15T12:33:21Z jmercouris: myrkraverk: Me too, in other languages :P
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2017-12-15T12:33:21Z myrkraverk: But as I said, I don't care about aggregators (yet).
2017-12-15T12:33:28Z jmercouris: but I would like a standard way to describe args, etc
2017-12-15T12:33:42Z jmercouris: I don't care about aggregators myself, I care about docstring -> reference manual generation tools
2017-12-15T12:33:53Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah.  I tend to use `foo' because that's highlighted differently in [x]emacs.
2017-12-15T12:33:59Z jmercouris: If you write really good docstrings, your manually basically builds itself
2017-12-15T12:34:04Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2017-12-15T12:34:09Z jmercouris: myrkraverk: You actually use xemacs?
2017-12-15T12:34:17Z myrkraverk: jmercouris: yes.
2017-12-15T12:34:29Z jmercouris: myrkraverk: How many of you are there?
2017-12-15T12:34:33Z myrkraverk: And to prove it, I just published this today: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2017/12/xemacs-sorting-key-value-lines-by-value/
2017-12-15T12:34:43Z myrkraverk: jmercouris: My casual count, 2.
2017-12-15T12:34:46Z myrkraverk: *by
2017-12-15T12:35:01Z myrkraverk: Ok, there are probably more, but I've only counted 2 on IRC.
2017-12-15T12:35:08Z jmercouris: That's hilarious :D
2017-12-15T12:35:12Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2017-12-15T12:35:35Z jmercouris: I imagine there are at least a couple dozen users worldwide, if not in the thousands
2017-12-15T12:35:35Z myrkraverk: So I generally refer to "both of us" when I talk about xemacs users; but I know there are more.
2017-12-15T12:35:37Z jmercouris: hard to know though
2017-12-15T12:35:43Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
2017-12-15T12:35:45Z kolb: jmercouris: so as someone who has actually adopted a formal language in docstrings, I say in retrospect this is probably a bad approach. Docstrings are as intended by the standard used for lookup in the lisp IDE, i.e. apropos. Yes, I can now automatically generate my docs, but I also have a markup document for every public symbol in my source code.
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2017-12-15T12:36:31Z jmercouris: kolb: But what about describing argument expectations, is that also not useful for someone in a lisp ide?
2017-12-15T12:36:45Z myrkraverk: And don't forget the return value.
2017-12-15T12:36:55Z Shinmera: kolb: FWIW Staple includes a mechanism to allow extensions of the documentation system per system-being-documented, so you can add new definition types, customise the rendering of the main documentation part, etc.
2017-12-15T12:37:16Z myrkraverk: I find myself often delve into docstrings to figure out the return value.  I personally try to put it in the second paragraph: Returns foo.
2017-12-15T12:37:22Z kolb: jmercouris: it totally is, but I doubt using a formal language/syntax for it is a good compromise between readability and style
2017-12-15T12:37:25Z kolb: see https://github.com/eugeneia/erlangen/blob/master/agent.lisp#L6
2017-12-15T12:37:33Z Shinmera: But as far as I know Staple is the only doc system allowing for something like that
2017-12-15T12:38:08Z kolb: jmercouris: I have a comparatively lightweight syntax, but my public docstrings still have become quite beurocratic
2017-12-15T12:39:09Z kolb: jmercouris: and I guess when standards/non-standards keep you from riting docstrings, its obvious that its better to not think about standards, and just write what you think is useful instead
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2017-12-15T12:40:02Z Shinmera: I've already written too much documentation to be bothered to go back and change it all even in the extremely unlikely situation that a standard for docstrings would be written that I agree with and fills my needs.
2017-12-15T12:40:19Z Zhivago: Perhaps the answer is to use declarations for those things instead?
2017-12-15T12:40:22Z kolb: Shinmera: +1
2017-12-15T12:40:28Z Shinmera: So I agree with the stance that the only way to work with this situation is to offer a customisable way to render the documentation.
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2017-12-15T12:41:07Z kolb: I think the #1 mantra should be that **not everyone fits your shoes**
2017-12-15T12:41:35Z kolb: and work from that, i.e. always have graceful "failure" in mind
2017-12-15T12:41:37Z Shinmera: I also agree that having a central place to discover documentation and projects is invaluable. But perhaps it would be better to simply include or link to the projects' own documentation for those that have it than to try to sledgehammer everything into one package, even if that would incur different looks for different proejcts.
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2017-12-15T12:42:34Z Xach: linking has some perils, like dead hosts on the other end
2017-12-15T12:42:46Z Shinmera: That's why including would be a possibility.
2017-12-15T12:42:55Z kolb: Because people asked: this my the doc I host: http://mr.gy/software/maxpc/api.html this is quickref: http://quickref.common-lisp.net/maxpc.html#The-maxpc-package
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2017-12-15T12:43:51Z kolb: Xach: I find it much more disturbing if Quick* goes down, i.e. single point of failure, compared to when links rot
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2017-12-15T12:44:47Z Xach: kolb: I would really like a way to get good docs locally, as well. even though there are vanishingly few ways to be really offline now.
2017-12-15T12:45:02Z Xach: some used to call it "train hacking" but i think most have wifi now?
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2017-12-15T12:45:32Z kolb: Xach: C-s (i.e. Save as...) HTML pages works well for me, I use an offline index (recoll) to search all my documentation (and system). Its nice.
2017-12-15T12:45:49Z Shinmera: Xach: I include all my docs in the source directory for this reason.
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2017-12-15T12:46:06Z Xach: kolb: cool, new to me
2017-12-15T12:46:46Z kolb: Shinmera: that is the really nice way do it, and much appreciated. I understand that its annoying for maintainers to keep build artifacts in repositories though.
2017-12-15T12:46:52Z Shinmera: Staple also includes a "staple server" system to generate the docs in your browser on the fly.
2017-12-15T12:47:09Z kolb: Xach: the hardest part is converting man and info pages to HTML ;-)
2017-12-15T12:47:15Z Zhivago: kolb: I have to say that putting that kind of mark-up into docstrings seems like it's just begging for terrible things to happen.
2017-12-15T12:47:35Z Shinmera: kolb: I run (staple:generate :foo) that writes the about.html, and then a script to push that to the gh-pages branch. It's really no biggie.
2017-12-15T12:48:11Z kolb: Shinmera: oh ok, I was thinking more in the terms of including a HTML manual in release tarballs
2017-12-15T12:48:29Z Shinmera: Well staple throws the about.html into your source root by default, so
2017-12-15T12:48:57Z kolb: Zhivago: yes, I deserve anything bad that might happen because I like well-typeset documentation
2017-12-15T12:49:13Z Xach: There are some projects that use a toolchain to generate docs that is very hard to acquire and use.
2017-12-15T12:49:28Z kolb: Zhivago: that happens to match the ANSI CL standard’s notation
2017-12-15T12:50:12Z Zhivago: Have you considered a translator from your mark-up to plain-text that would be suitable in docstrings?
2017-12-15T12:50:25Z kolb: Zhivago: this translator already exists
2017-12-15T12:50:53Z myrkraverk: In cases like the cl-ppcre docs disappearing from online, there's also ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-ppcre-2.0.11/doc/index.html
2017-12-15T12:51:01Z kolb: Zhivago: a full suite for my documentation system is on QL, it includes a formal document model based on s-expressions, translators to print, html and plaintext
2017-12-15T12:51:19Z Xach: fewer projects have "release tarballs" these days :~(
2017-12-15T12:51:30Z myrkraverk: True ;c
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2017-12-15T12:52:35Z Zhivago: Yes, and I see weird stuff in the docstrings in the source.
2017-12-15T12:52:51Z Zhivago: Which presumably you expect random implementations to be able to display in some sane fashion.
2017-12-15T12:53:09Z Zhivago: This seems an unreasonable expectation, and the root of the problem you're currently talking about.
2017-12-15T12:53:38Z Zhivago: If the docstrings were plain text this problem wouldn't exist.
2017-12-15T12:53:52Z Shinmera: I keep my docstrings pretty plain for this reason.
2017-12-15T12:55:42Z shka: i stumbled upon this problem before
2017-12-15T12:55:48Z Shinmera: ::look up radiance define-string-route
2017-12-15T12:55:48Z Colleen: Macro radiance-core:define-string-route https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#MACRO%20RADIANCE-CORE%3ADEFINE-STRING-ROUTE
2017-12-15T12:55:56Z shka: i ended up reverting this thing
2017-12-15T12:56:11Z shka: instead of embedding markup in docstring, i generate docstring from sexp
2017-12-15T12:56:14Z Shinmera: ^for instance there's some formatting in there, and some "special" syntax recognised by staple, but it is still well readable from the repl
2017-12-15T12:56:49Z shka: this solves this issue, but now you have extra dependency just for docstrings
2017-12-15T12:56:52Z Zhivago: shka: That sounds like the right thing to do.
2017-12-15T12:56:57Z shka: which kinda sucks
2017-12-15T12:57:33Z Shinmera: shka: I depend on documentation-utils in a lot of my projects for docstring reasons, and don't see the problem.
2017-12-15T12:57:47Z shka: right
2017-12-15T12:57:53Z kolb: Zhivago: the root of the problem is people wanting to decide what’s "right" for everyone else
2017-12-15T12:58:05Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: except for the long line, in case you're actually working on a VT520.
2017-12-15T12:58:22Z myrkraverk: (which I hope no one is, these days)
2017-12-15T12:58:30Z shka: when i have a little bit more time, i will polish this docstring generator
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2017-12-15T12:58:46Z kolb: shka: that’s an interesting approach, will have to look into that.
2017-12-15T12:58:48Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: The first line should describe the overall function in full, which can make it a tad long sometimes, yeah.
2017-12-15T12:58:52Z shka: for instance, remove all pointless dependency
2017-12-15T12:59:21Z Shinmera: shka: I wouldn't mind a "documentation translation" part in documentation-utils.
2017-12-15T12:59:23Z Zhivago: kolb: Yes, you want to decide that weird crap in docstrings is right for everyone else. :)
2017-12-15T12:59:23Z myrkraverk: Shinmera: Yes, I know; I tend to break the first line for my docstrings anyway; but the first line *is special*.
2017-12-15T13:00:06Z kolb: Zhivago: you have no idea what you are talking about, just stop
2017-12-15T13:00:08Z shka: Shinmera: thanks for head up, will look at it
2017-12-15T13:00:13Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils/
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2017-12-15T13:00:54Z myrkraverk: And about long lines; I tend to split my screen horizontally, so I can put two code pages side by side (or manual, page, etc) -- but because most "modern" IDEs don't do that, developers have gotten extremely lazy about shortening long lines.
2017-12-15T13:00:58Z shka: Shinmera: looks more or less what I figured out myself
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2017-12-15T13:01:08Z myrkraverk: Which makes me keep lines <75-ish characters.
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2017-12-15T13:02:05Z shka: Shinmera: i can certainly contribute to that, I agree with this approach
2017-12-15T13:03:00Z Zhivago: kolb: Are you putting weird mark-up into docstrings and expecting random systems to deal with that as you expect or not?
2017-12-15T13:03:43Z kolb: Zhivago: no I am not, now stop talking to me
2017-12-15T13:04:40Z Zhivago: Then why do I asee weird mark-up in the docstrings in your source code?
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2017-12-15T13:46:34Z kolb: Shinmera: Regarding documentation-utils, can I get the untranslated docstring for a a symbol/type  tuple?
2017-12-15T13:46:54Z Shinmera: There's currently no translation going on at all, so just DOCUMENTATION will do  that
2017-12-15T13:47:35Z kolb: Shinmera: yeah but I would use a translator, but still need to get to the original source to generate my HTML docs
2017-12-15T13:48:07Z Shinmera: You're asking me about features that aren't implemented. How am I supposed to know how they would work?
2017-12-15T13:48:25Z kolb: http://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils/#DOCUMENTATION-UTILS:*DOCUMENTATION-TRANSLATORS*
2017-12-15T13:48:43Z kolb: IIUC I could already plug in my own translators?
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2017-12-15T13:48:52Z Shinmera: That translates an expression in define-docs to a (setf documentation) form.
2017-12-15T13:49:00Z kolb: Oh ok
2017-12-15T13:49:03Z Shinmera: or rather a (documentation ..) form that can be read and setf
2017-12-15T13:49:25Z kolb: I see thanks!
2017-12-15T13:49:44Z Shinmera: You COULD output some other place that side-effects documentation and stores the original string somewhere else to do what you want
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2017-12-15T13:49:56Z shka: in fact that's what I am doing
2017-12-15T13:49:56Z kolb: yeah that’s whyt I figured
2017-12-15T13:50:03Z Shinmera: But I'd rather have that kind of facility in documentation-utils native.
2017-12-15T13:50:16Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/docstample
2017-12-15T13:50:18Z kolb: Shinmera: agree, hence my question
2017-12-15T13:50:45Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/api/docstrings.lisp
2017-12-15T13:50:49Z kolb: Shinmera: i.e. a non DOCUMENTATION accessor for the strings to DEFINE-DOCS
2017-12-15T13:51:01Z shka: and then i can take *documentation* because it contains original args
2017-12-15T13:51:15Z shka: but that's ironicly not documented :D
2017-12-15T13:52:42Z kolb is going for a casual bike ride to clear out, bbl
2017-12-15T13:52:52Z shka: bye!
2017-12-15T13:53:03Z Shinmera goes back to wrestling Android
2017-12-15T13:53:10Z shka: oh god
2017-12-15T13:53:18Z shka: Shinmera: i am sorry to hear it!
2017-12-15T13:53:22Z shka: ;-)
2017-12-15T13:56:04Z shka: Shinmera: one more question
2017-12-15T13:56:58Z shka: i don't see need for docstample as a separate project, so i would rather add all features into documentation-utils, should i use github issues to discuss this?
2017-12-15T13:57:07Z Shinmera: Sure.
2017-12-15T13:57:10Z shka: great
2017-12-15T13:57:30Z shka: once i will have a little bit extra time, i will check how your stuff is designed
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2017-12-15T13:59:04Z Shinmera: No rush
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2017-12-15T14:44:54Z lisp_guest: hi guys
2017-12-15T14:45:05Z beach: Hello lisp_guest.
2017-12-15T14:45:35Z lisp_guest: how exactly is LAMBDA as a symbol vs. LAMBDA as a macro differentiated by the evaluator?
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2017-12-15T14:46:11Z shka: lambda is special form, not a macro
2017-12-15T14:46:11Z lisp_guest: are the possible cases where a lambda expression is acceptable just enumerated on a case-by-case basis?
2017-12-15T14:46:20Z beach: shka: It is a macro.
2017-12-15T14:46:22Z lisp_guest: shka: it's a symbol and a macro
2017-12-15T14:46:22Z beach: The macro (lambda (...) ...) expands to (function (lambda (...) ...)
2017-12-15T14:46:28Z shka: what?
2017-12-15T14:46:33Z shka: right
2017-12-15T14:46:36Z shka: this thing…
2017-12-15T14:46:42Z lisp_guest: yes, indeed. so how does the evaluator know when it's a macro and when it's a symbol?
2017-12-15T14:46:44Z shka: i forgot about it
2017-12-15T14:46:53Z beach: lisp_guest: In the expansion, (lambda (...) ...) is no longer a macro call.
2017-12-15T14:46:54Z lisp_guest: does it just depend on what the lambda form finds itself in?
2017-12-15T14:47:21Z beach: lisp_guest: It depends on the occurrence.  If it is in a position where the form is evaluated normally, it is a macro call.
2017-12-15T14:47:22Z Bike: FUNCTION is a special operator. it does not macroexpand its argumenet.
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2017-12-15T14:47:43Z lisp_guest: Bike: right, that's what i'm wondering about. so it's basically hardwired into FUNCTION itself?
2017-12-15T14:47:46Z beach: lisp_guest: Otherwise, it is just a lambda expression starting with the symbol LAMBDA.
2017-12-15T14:47:48Z Bike: yep.
2017-12-15T14:48:03Z lisp_guest: so then you could say it's defined on a case-by-case basis in the standard
2017-12-15T14:48:10Z lisp_guest: well, i'm assuming there are more cases like these, are there really?
2017-12-15T14:48:16Z lisp_guest: i.e. is there anything other than FUNCTION that behaves this way?
2017-12-15T14:48:26Z beach: Yes: ((lambda (...) ...) ...)
2017-12-15T14:48:30Z lisp_guest: ah, right
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2017-12-15T14:48:43Z Bike: there are a few functions that deal with lambda expressions, like COMPILE and COERCE, but they take expressions as quoted data
2017-12-15T14:49:53Z lisp_guest: mhm. so basically, there are few special places when a lambda form has special meaning (like FUNCTION and calling a function), and in all other cases it's treated as a macro
2017-12-15T14:50:03Z Bike: a lambda expression.
2017-12-15T14:50:07Z Bike: but yes.
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2017-12-15T14:50:22Z Bike: it's treated as a macro when it's in a normal evaluation context.
2017-12-15T14:50:32Z beach: lisp_guest: It is not a form there.  A form is an expression that is to be evaluated.
2017-12-15T14:50:42Z Bike: function and lambda forms (which is what you call what beach said) are not normal evaluation contexts
2017-12-15T14:50:58Z lisp_guest: ah right, i mixed up the terminology
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2017-12-15T14:52:00Z TMA: lisp_guest: it is the same as with other symbols designating a macro -- when in normal evaluation context, the list (A ...) is a macro call for any symbol A designating a macro (including the symbol LAMBDA)
2017-12-15T14:53:36Z TMA: lisp_guest: there are special contexts (such as inside (QUOTE ...) or (FUNCTION ...) or other special forms where the context dictates following other rules as specified by that special form.
2017-12-15T14:54:16Z beach: lisp_guest: What TMA said.  For example (let (lambda) ...) is another example.
2017-12-15T14:54:46Z lisp_guest: mhm. so there's really nothing *that* special and black magic about it. the interpretation of the expression depends on the context and that's it
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2017-12-15T14:55:14Z TMA: lisp_guest: additonally the (LAMBDA (...) ...) expression can be used in the operator place in a compound form. this is the only special case for (LAMBDA (...) ...)
2017-12-15T14:56:28Z lisp_guest: TMA: that would be the ((lambda ...) args) example, right?
2017-12-15T14:56:36Z beach: Right.
2017-12-15T14:57:04Z TMA: lisp_guest: so that you can use ((lambda (a) (+ a a)) 1) instead of (funcall (lambda (a) (+ a a)) 1)
2017-12-15T14:57:13Z lisp_guest: ya
2017-12-15T14:57:23Z lisp_guest: nice, thanks beach, Bike, TMA :-)
2017-12-15T14:57:42Z TMA: other than that, no specialness with LAMBDA
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2017-12-15T14:59:28Z lisp_guest: what was weird when i first learned about this is that it seemed like black magic because i couldn't tell when it had its special meaning
2017-12-15T14:59:42Z lisp_guest: fiding out and confirming that it's "hard coded" into the standard makes it very easy to understand
2017-12-15T14:59:47Z lisp_guest: it was just special cased
2017-12-15T14:59:55Z Xach: it's often pretty easy to follow in the core of the evaluator, too
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2017-12-15T15:00:13Z Xach: i.e. there is a visible COND clause that checks for a (lambda ...)
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2017-12-15T15:00:52Z lisp_guest: and nobody really mentions that fact from the explenations of LAMBDA i've read
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2017-12-15T15:01:35Z Bike: it's described on the page for function, and lambda forms are explained in the pages on evaluation semantics.
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2017-12-15T15:02:59Z lisp_guest: Bike: i've read both, but it still took a bit before i truly got what it meant
2017-12-15T15:03:28Z lisp_guest: or maybe it was just because i didn't get used to the terminology yet
2017-12-15T15:03:40Z lisp_guest: for example, FUNCTION says "If name is a lambda expression"
2017-12-15T15:03:53Z lisp_guest: expression here refers to a sexp, right?
2017-12-15T15:04:13Z lisp_guest: i.e. a special sexp with LAMBDA in as the operator and all the other stuff
2017-12-15T15:04:18Z lisp_guest: s/in//
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2017-12-15T15:05:49Z Bike: a lambda expression. a list beginning with LAMBDA. like (lambda (x) x). like we've been talking about.
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2017-12-15T15:08:55Z lisp_guest: Bike: exactly, but when i read "expression" i didn't think of such a list. i guess it's because i got used to what the term meant in other languages
2017-12-15T15:09:55Z beach: clhs glossary/expresssion
2017-12-15T15:09:55Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for glossary/expresssion.
2017-12-15T15:09:59Z beach: Aww.
2017-12-15T15:10:05Z lisp_guest: :D
2017-12-15T15:10:18Z Bike: clhs glossary/lambda expression
2017-12-15T15:10:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#lambda_expression
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2017-12-15T15:10:46Z beach: clhs glossary/expression
2017-12-15T15:10:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#expression
2017-12-15T15:10:57Z beach: Too many #\s-es.
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2017-12-15T16:26:24Z nyef`: Today I learned: The AMOP specification for MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA includes an example which uses FLET to bind CALL-NEXT-METHOD, an action forbidden by CLHS.
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2017-12-15T16:28:35Z beach: I am not sure that's the right interpretation of what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says.
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2017-12-15T16:35:16Z nyef`: CLHS FLET says that it establishes a function binding.  CLHS 11.1.2.1.2 forbids this for external symbols of package COMMON-LISP.  CLHS 11.1.2.1.2.1 provides exceptions for symbols which don't name standardized functions, macros, or special operators.  CLHS CALL-NEXT-METHOD says that the exceptions of CLHS 11.1.2.1.2.1 don't apply.
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2017-12-15T16:58:52Z Bike: make-method-lambda also respecifies call-method and make-method without giving detail on new syntax. it's kind of extracurricular.
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2017-12-15T18:18:41Z akkad: is there any trivial-repl sorts of packages to provide the consistent niceties some repls offer. e.g. :pwd :cd :ls
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2017-12-15T18:20:59Z jackdaniel: I believe pjb has something like that in his informatimago tree
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2017-12-15T18:21:41Z Shinmera: There's prepl, but it kinda blows.
2017-12-15T18:23:36Z nyef`: sb-aclrepl, maybe?
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2017-12-15T18:24:04Z nyef`: (I realize that that doesn't help for non-SBCL use-cases.)
2017-12-15T18:24:21Z jackdaniel: question indicates, that he's looking for portable solution
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2017-12-15T18:27:51Z akkad: no biggy, easy enough to code around
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2017-12-15T18:31:18Z pjb: Yes, there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl
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2017-12-15T18:32:22Z pjb: and there's also a com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:rep if you need to implement the loop yourself.
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2017-12-15T19:07:11Z rpg: sb-aclrepl is nice, but unfortunately, it's not compatible with SLIME.
2017-12-15T19:07:48Z Bike: what would a repl being compatible with slime mean?
2017-12-15T19:09:17Z nyef`: Doesn't SLIME provide its own REPL anyway?
2017-12-15T19:10:41Z jackdaniel: it does, but it doesn't provide any goodies akkad asked for
2017-12-15T19:10:45Z jackdaniel: swank::simple-repl
2017-12-15T19:11:49Z fourier: is where a more/less portable way to get posix file descriptor from open file stream or at least file name? I could get it (filename) relatively easy on LispWorks and apparently on ccl, but dont have sbcl to test...
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2017-12-15T19:13:09Z jackdaniel: fourier: implementation specific, but sbcl has that, same goes for ecl
2017-12-15T19:13:12Z nyef`: clhs namestring
2017-12-15T19:13:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm
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2017-12-15T19:13:47Z nyef`: clhs truename
2017-12-15T19:13:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm
2017-12-15T19:14:07Z nyef`: Also possibly PROBE-FILE.
2017-12-15T19:14:49Z jackdaniel: (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd *standard-output*)
2017-12-15T19:15:08Z nyef`: Admittedly, "implementation-dependent" is by no means "posix compliant".
2017-12-15T19:15:20Z nyef`: (But then, why would it be on a non-posix host OS?)
2017-12-15T19:15:24Z jackdaniel: (EXT:FILE-STREAM-FD *standard-output*) ; ecl
2017-12-15T19:15:38Z fourier: thanks jackdaniel ! nice
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2017-12-15T19:17:19Z jackdaniel: sure
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2017-12-15T19:37:21Z rme: Is stream-device at all portable? It might be a ccl-only thing.
2017-12-15T19:38:06Z rme: e.g., (stream-device *standard-output* :output) => 1 at a ccl tty prompt
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2017-12-15T19:38:35Z fourier: jackdaniel: CCL (ccl::stream-device stream :input)
2017-12-15T19:38:45Z fourier: jackdaniel: lispworks: (slot-value stream 'stream::file-handle)
2017-12-15T19:39:01Z fourier: more/less ok now :)
2017-12-15T19:39:36Z rme: note that ccl:stream-device is external in package ccl.
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2017-12-15T19:43:46Z fourier: indeed
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2017-12-15T20:26:52Z rme: It's probably too late for this year, but I wonder if it would be good to look into having a Lisp room at FOSDEM (which I just learned about).  https://fosdem.org/2018/
2017-12-15T20:28:18Z jackdaniel: I like the idea
2017-12-15T20:29:43Z jackdaniel: never was at fosdem, but I just thought it would be cool to go there in 2019
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2017-12-15T20:31:04Z rme puts that idea on his list
2017-12-15T20:31:51Z rme: I keep talking about moving to France.  If I ever do that, FOSDEM will even be close by.
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2017-12-15T21:09:19Z alandipert: i can't figure out how to use fixnum-only * in this function, anyone have advice on how to type hint? https://gist.github.com/alandipert/f2602716487f29701b94e0db3a628e14 (everything is always fixnum)
2017-12-15T21:09:27Z alandipert: ...and i'm using sbcl
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2017-12-15T21:19:50Z rme: I should submit a talk for ELS 2018.  I need to think of something good.
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2017-12-15T21:24:21Z fourier: alandipert: try (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))and (float 0) (not sure about last one, maybe its lispworks only)
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2017-12-15T21:26:17Z Bike: it is certainly not standard
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2017-12-15T21:41:43Z jasom: ever have one of those moments where sbcl tells you some code is unreachable, and you just can't figure out why?
2017-12-15T21:41:56Z aeth: yes, but it has always been my fault in the end
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2017-12-15T21:52:21Z jasom: I agree; I just can't figure out how...
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2017-12-15T21:54:34Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/jasom/c95e083e4ba7c42e8321ede0e3d12583 if anybody can help
2017-12-15T21:55:55Z Bike: Huh.
2017-12-15T21:56:01Z Bike: prefix-buckets doesn't return a vector? Dunno.
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2017-12-15T21:57:45Z Bike: (expt +hash-tree-exponent+ (1- depth)) is too big to make an array with?
2017-12-15T21:58:09Z jasom: Bike: depth is unknown
2017-12-15T21:58:44Z jasom: plus a 64-bit lisp ought to be able to make (expt 4 31), right?
2017-12-15T21:59:07Z Bike: looks over array-dimension-limit to me, actually.
2017-12-15T21:59:50Z jasom: well changing the type of depth to (mod 16) doesn't change things.  Plus it shouldn't be *unreachable* because clearly if depth is 0 (which it's allowed to be) everything works fine
2017-12-15T22:00:53Z Bike: so prefix-buckets definitely returns a vector?
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2017-12-15T22:01:29Z aeth: rme: One idea would be to do something that can be visualized through computer graphics. There are 6 or so libraries in CL that can handle visualizations, e.g. https://github.com/vydd/sketch
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2017-12-15T22:02:33Z jasom: Bike: let me double check the ftype
2017-12-15T22:02:50Z Bike: Other than that I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.
2017-12-15T22:02:59Z jmercouris: I just implemented imenu in my browser!
2017-12-15T22:03:07Z jmercouris: Except it jumps on headings
2017-12-15T22:03:36Z jmercouris: I feel bad because I use a global var to store completion candidates temporarily, but the whole minibuffer/command system needs an overhaul/rethink anyway
2017-12-15T22:03:49Z jasom: Bike: derived type is just "function"; it returns the result of a map-into which ought always be a vector, but it might not have been able to infer that
2017-12-15T22:03:50Z jmercouris: Something to think about for version 0.07 when GTK people start using it
2017-12-15T22:04:07Z Bike: still, that shouldn't be an unreachable
2017-12-15T22:04:24Z Bike: have you tried macroexpanding the loop? it's ugly, but that tends to help me understand how the compiler is thinking
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2017-12-15T22:05:39Z jasom: yeah.  Also, removing the type declaration for result doesn't change the dead-code note
2017-12-15T22:07:31Z jasom: wtf.  It expands to (let ((new-level nil)) ...)
2017-12-15T22:08:05Z jasom: oh, it does a dsetq later on
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2017-12-15T22:09:57Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/jasom/c95e083e4ba7c42e8321ede0e3d12583 is now updated with the maxroexpansion
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2017-12-15T22:15:59Z Bike: yeah, i hardly see any way the make-array could be dead other than prefix-buckets being weird somehow.
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2017-12-15T22:24:25Z pierpa: doens't the LAMBDA in   (map-into new-level (lambda () (ironclad:make-digest +hash+)))  needs an (ignored) argument?
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2017-12-15T22:25:15Z pierpa: ah. no. Please ignore
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2017-12-15T22:27:28Z pierpa: hmmm...
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2017-12-15T22:41:57Z AeroNotix: yay lisp
2017-12-15T22:42:12Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: what browser are you working on?
2017-12-15T22:42:14Z AeroNotix: got a link?
2017-12-15T22:42:45Z AeroNotix: I wrote a browser with CL/webkit a while back, then real life + job got in the way. I still longingly look at the repo on github sometimes and think what could've been
2017-12-15T22:42:45Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT
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2017-12-15T22:42:54Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Yes, I know
2017-12-15T22:43:00Z jmercouris: I've looked at your source code extensively
2017-12-15T22:43:09Z AeroNotix: Oh ok.
2017-12-15T22:43:17Z AeroNotix: Are you using GTK?
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2017-12-15T22:43:27Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: No, I'm using native where possible,so on OSX I'm using Cocoa
2017-12-15T22:43:41Z AeroNotix: oh that seems like a better option. I got really fed up with using GTK.
2017-12-15T22:43:43Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: I WAS using QT, but now I am working on a GTK port for Linux, better bindings and speed
2017-12-15T22:43:44Z AeroNotix: What are you using on Linux?
2017-12-15T22:43:57Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Yeah, I know, I saw your efforts at refactoring it out :P
2017-12-15T22:44:06Z AeroNotix: I'd use Qt, personally. I keep intending to make lispkit use Qt.
2017-12-15T22:44:19Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: There are no good CL bindings for QT
2017-12-15T22:44:29Z AeroNotix: I found a mixture of GTK, the webkit gtk bindings were just generally crap
2017-12-15T22:44:31Z jmercouris: and Webkit-GTK is way better supported than anything else
2017-12-15T22:44:46Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'll have to work on better Webkit-GTK bindings
2017-12-15T22:44:49Z AeroNotix: interesting. In my research (that I did a while ago) I found that Qt, at least at first, looked better
2017-12-15T22:44:50Z jmercouris: I've already been in touch with Joachim
2017-12-15T22:45:03Z Shinmera: Qtools is good, but Qt4 only so oooold
2017-12-15T22:45:06Z AeroNotix: I want to say Shinmera was working a lot on Qt stuff and did some good things
2017-12-15T22:45:06Z jmercouris: I've already completely implemented it in QT, so I'm very familiar with that path :D
2017-12-15T22:45:09Z AeroNotix: oh there you are Shinmera
2017-12-15T22:45:12Z Shinmera: Hi
2017-12-15T22:45:28Z jmercouris: So, GTK it is :P
2017-12-15T22:45:34Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: fair enough. How did it go? On Linux or Mac with Qt?
2017-12-15T22:45:46Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: I had it compiling with both
2017-12-15T22:46:01Z AeroNotix: if I build next now, will I be able to run it on Linux without any issues?
2017-12-15T22:46:09Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: On OSX the rendering was absymal, not necessarily due to the web-engine, but due to QT limitations, their port of any web engine requires them to do rendering, and that was always too slow
2017-12-15T22:46:23Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: No, I have to complete the GTK port
2017-12-15T22:46:28Z jmercouris: I haven't quite yet started
2017-12-15T22:46:33Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: oh yes I remember that Qt takes over a lot of the webkit APIs
2017-12-15T22:46:36Z jmercouris: I need help because 1. I don't have experience
2017-12-15T22:46:40Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: only ccl?
2017-12-15T22:46:48Z jmercouris: It can be SBCL or anything really
2017-12-15T22:46:52Z AeroNotix: ok
2017-12-15T22:47:01Z jmercouris: I only have CCL specific calls on OSX for the bridge
2017-12-15T22:47:06Z AeroNotix: Did you develop this prior to seeing lispkit?
2017-12-15T22:47:16Z jmercouris: No, I saw what you did and learned from that :P
2017-12-15T22:47:23Z jmercouris: Didn't want to make the same mistakes
2017-12-15T22:47:23Z Shinmera: I think for an application it's fine to only support one impl.
2017-12-15T22:47:35Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: what do you mena?
2017-12-15T22:47:35Z jmercouris: for example, there are literally 0 side effects when loading the code until you hit base.lisp
2017-12-15T22:47:43Z jmercouris: ALL foreign code is isolated in separate interfaces
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2017-12-15T22:47:54Z jmercouris: the system is completely portable
2017-12-15T22:47:59Z AeroNotix: I can't remember exactly but lispkit shouldn't execute anything outside of main
2017-12-15T22:48:15Z jmercouris: There were some other things
2017-12-15T22:48:22Z jmercouris: I noticed you embedding foreign code directly into your lisp code
2017-12-15T22:48:24Z jmercouris: things like that
2017-12-15T22:48:29Z jmercouris: just small stuff really
2017-12-15T22:48:34Z jmercouris: I also stole some of your parenscript for link-hints
2017-12-15T22:48:42Z jmercouris: needs some work to be better integrated into my system, but it works fornow
2017-12-15T22:48:43Z AeroNotix: I didn't write that and it was very buggy for me
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2017-12-15T22:48:56Z jmercouris: well, it works fine, just need to do some stuff to it
2017-12-15T22:49:02Z AeroNotix: I used that parenscript highlighter for a while. Eventually it started crashing a lot on me.
2017-12-15T22:49:22Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Would you be interested in working on the GTK port?
2017-12-15T22:49:29Z jmercouris: I've been asking around a lot to try to find help
2017-12-15T22:49:53Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: I would be interested but my day job is ridiculous (and has been for for 3 years plus)
2017-12-15T22:49:59Z AeroNotix: if it wasn't lispkit would be more finished
2017-12-15T22:50:15Z jmercouris: If you simply complete the GTK port, nEXT is literally ready to use as your daily driver
2017-12-15T22:50:27Z jmercouris: and the interface for completing a port is extremely simple as well
2017-12-15T22:50:40Z jmercouris: I know, because I made the cocoa port :D
2017-12-15T22:51:00Z jmercouris: This is it, all you have to implement: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/next/source/package.lisp
2017-12-15T22:51:05Z AeroNotix: It's interesting but honestly I have practically zero time
2017-12-15T22:51:18Z jmercouris: that's too bad
2017-12-15T22:51:27Z jmercouris: I hope you can find a job that gives you more free time soon
2017-12-15T22:51:29Z AeroNotix: and honestly I would kind of like to finish lispkit one day
2017-12-15T22:51:38Z jmercouris: but why not work on nEXT instead?
2017-12-15T22:51:41Z jmercouris: I am further a long
2017-12-15T22:51:47Z AeroNotix: Because it's my baby :)
2017-12-15T22:52:05Z AeroNotix: If you're full steam ahead though with next I really wish you luck in seeing that idea come to fruition.
2017-12-15T22:52:07Z jmercouris: Hmm, I would rather work together on one project and get farther than divide our efforts
2017-12-15T22:52:14Z AeroNotix: no no, you misunderstand me.
2017-12-15T22:52:26Z AeroNotix: I know that i won't work on lispkit again for a long time :)
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2017-12-15T22:52:41Z AeroNotix: and likely next or some other project will finish that idea before me
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2017-12-15T22:52:57Z jmercouris: That's unfortunate in a way
2017-12-15T22:52:58Z AeroNotix: so having a proper, fully, extensible browser done in The Lisp Way will have been realised.
2017-12-15T22:53:16Z jmercouris: but at least youll have a cool browser ;)
2017-12-15T22:53:20Z AeroNotix: nah it's the lisp way that
2017-12-15T22:53:28Z AeroNotix: people write something, people extend it or the idea
2017-12-15T22:53:52Z jmercouris: It's a shame it doesn't work on Linux yet
2017-12-15T22:54:02Z jmercouris: there's so many people asking me about Linux, I want to see their reactions lol
2017-12-15T22:54:02Z AeroNotix: I'm sure it will eventually
2017-12-15T22:54:10Z jmercouris: Yeah, I need about a month I think
2017-12-15T22:54:16Z AeroNotix: I do think that linux support should be a very primary goal for it
2017-12-15T22:54:27Z jmercouris: it is the next goal of release 0.07
2017-12-15T22:54:37Z jmercouris: 0.06 is complete after I add a single document to the repo
2017-12-15T22:54:41Z AeroNotix: Cool
2017-12-15T22:54:43Z jmercouris: I was about to publish it actually
2017-12-15T22:55:00Z jmercouris: If you're interested in the project goals thery can be seen here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/next#release-timeline
2017-12-15T22:55:44Z jmercouris: I also hope to be able to one day monetize nEXT, make some contributions back to the Lisp community, develop some tools stuff like that
2017-12-15T22:55:52Z jmercouris: I'm not very optimistic, but it would be nice
2017-12-15T22:56:10Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: actually one of the reasons I initially started developing lispkit was because I couldn't ever find a browser that I could regexp search within a page
2017-12-15T22:56:18Z AeroNotix: I got that working with lispkit at one point
2017-12-15T22:56:48Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Hmm, I don't have that working yet, I only JUST added a really basic search
2017-12-15T22:57:06Z AeroNotix: I think actually I was using the webkit APIs for it. I think they genuinely let you use regexp searches on a webkit browser instancce
2017-12-15T22:57:11Z jmercouris: I'm only now really getting to grips with parenscript, but I can already do some cool things
2017-12-15T22:57:13Z AeroNotix: all this is me remembering from years ago
2017-12-15T22:57:17Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Yes they do
2017-12-15T22:57:25Z jmercouris: I am trying to avoid using anything API specific though
2017-12-15T22:57:37Z AeroNotix: I can see the benefit of doing that
2017-12-15T22:57:40Z jmercouris: I literally only need to be able to 1. make a webkit view, 2. set the url, 3. execute JS
2017-12-15T22:57:48Z jmercouris: and my system is infinitely portable
2017-12-15T22:57:56Z AeroNotix: Yeah I can see the drive to want to do that
2017-12-15T22:58:01Z jmercouris: I saw too many people get burned in the past by comitting to a framework
2017-12-15T22:58:07Z AeroNotix: yep, <= this guy
2017-12-15T22:58:15Z jmercouris: That and the Qutebrowser guy as well
2017-12-15T22:58:29Z jmercouris: bought heavily into QT webkit, and the port to QT Webengine took almost like a year or something insane
2017-12-15T22:58:40Z jmercouris: I was able to complete my port in like 3 weeks, and 2 of those weeks were spent learning cocoa
2017-12-15T22:58:55Z AeroNotix: Sounds like fun
2017-12-15T22:59:07Z jmercouris: Yeah, it is fun
2017-12-15T22:59:09Z AeroNotix: What about cookies/profiles?
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2017-12-15T22:59:13Z jmercouris: It's nice to finally have someone else be excited about it
2017-12-15T22:59:22Z jmercouris: So on OSX these are handled natively
2017-12-15T22:59:31Z jmercouris: for the GTK port, I'll have to do some BS I guess
2017-12-15T22:59:40Z AeroNotix: The lisp community was generally quite excited about lispkit/similar things. As much as the lisp community can be. I mean you have 900 stars on github
2017-12-15T22:59:45Z AeroNotix: lispkit still gets 1/2 stars a month
2017-12-15T23:00:01Z AeroNotix: got to remember there really isn't a huge active community behind lisp these days
2017-12-15T23:00:02Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: I have a feeling those are mostly like emacs users/ random programmers
2017-12-15T23:00:07Z AeroNotix: exactly
2017-12-15T23:00:15Z AeroNotix: targeting emacs users was a primary goal for me
2017-12-15T23:00:35Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: did you ever build/run lispkit btw?
2017-12-15T23:00:43Z AeroNotix: I suppose being on a mac it might not have worked :)
2017-12-15T23:00:44Z jmercouris: Nah, I don't run Linux these days
2017-12-15T23:00:49Z AeroNotix: gotcha
2017-12-15T23:00:56Z jmercouris: I only use FreeBSD and MacOS
2017-12-15T23:01:11Z jmercouris: so it will be quite a journey for me to make it work
2017-12-15T23:01:13Z AeroNotix: I did have an ex-colleague who got it working for him
2017-12-15T23:01:26Z jmercouris: I'll probably pilfer a bunch of code from Lispkit for the GTK port, so in a way, it will live on :D
2017-12-15T23:01:27Z AeroNotix: he never sent me a PR though
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2017-12-15T23:01:42Z AeroNotix: well, feel free. I think the license is libre enough right?
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2017-12-15T23:01:51Z jmercouris: Yeah, I don't remember what your license is
2017-12-15T23:01:54Z jmercouris: BSD or something
2017-12-15T23:02:08Z AeroNotix: That works for you?
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2017-12-15T23:02:13Z jmercouris: I am using BSD license
2017-12-15T23:02:19Z AeroNotix: BSD 2-clause apparently.
2017-12-15T23:02:37Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's just fine for me
2017-12-15T23:03:18Z jmercouris: I have your License located here https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/documents/external
2017-12-15T23:03:19Z AeroNotix: Cool. I'll star next and see where it goes. When it gets to the point of `make && make install` I'll probably switch to it. As I said, day job is just too demanding at the minute for anything deep and dark with non-work related programming if you get me
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2017-12-15T23:03:34Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: I gotcha
2017-12-15T23:03:36Z AeroNotix: haha! Man that's crackers :)
2017-12-15T23:03:58Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: but the build script will be more like "ccl -l make.lisp"
2017-12-15T23:04:19Z AeroNotix: yeah same difference :)
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2017-12-15T23:04:52Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Thank you for the star!
2017-12-15T23:05:00Z AeroNotix: np! :)
2017-12-15T23:05:17Z jmercouris: When I make it to 1000 I will celebrate by going to tropical island berlin
2017-12-15T23:05:23Z AeroNotix: haha
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2017-12-15T23:05:36Z jmercouris: I am being completely serious
2017-12-15T23:05:43Z AeroNotix: You're not far from me then
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2017-12-15T23:06:04Z jmercouris: perhaps not, I know you are polish, but poland is like an 8 hour drive or so
2017-12-15T23:06:09Z jmercouris: unless you are in szceczin or something
2017-12-15T23:06:11Z AeroNotix: I am not Polish but I live here
2017-12-15T23:06:20Z jmercouris: Ah, whoops, sorry!
2017-12-15T23:06:31Z jmercouris: If you don't mind me asking then, where are you from?
2017-12-15T23:06:36Z AeroNotix: google maps suggests slightly over 6 hours for berlin => krakow
2017-12-15T23:06:40Z AeroNotix: I am from the UK
2017-12-15T23:07:00Z jmercouris: That's an interesting move, I don't imagine you have a lot of expatriates there
2017-12-15T23:07:17Z AeroNotix: Apparently there are 6,000 registered UK citizens in Poland
2017-12-15T23:07:27Z AeroNotix: so +/- a few thousand on top of that.
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2017-12-15T23:07:36Z AeroNotix: I've met three UK citizens in 10 years here
2017-12-15T23:07:40Z AeroNotix: that live here I mean
2017-12-15T23:07:45Z jmercouris: Lol yeah, I believe it
2017-12-15T23:08:02Z jmercouris: Your last name also didn't seem Polish, but I figured maybe you had ancestors from another country or something
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2017-12-15T23:08:36Z AeroNotix: I am not sure about my surname. My mum did some ancestry stuff a few years ago and couldn't figure it out
2017-12-15T23:08:50Z AeroNotix: I always thought it was an Anglicisation of "Franz" perhaps
2017-12-15T23:09:01Z rme: AeroNotix: were you at the ELS in Krakow a couple of years ago?
2017-12-15T23:09:08Z rme: I don't recognize you from your nick.
2017-12-15T23:09:12Z AeroNotix: rme: remind me what ELS is, please
2017-12-15T23:09:20Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: European lisp symposium
2017-12-15T23:09:21Z AeroNotix: Oh Erlang Lisp Symposium
2017-12-15T23:09:32Z rme: Probably not, then. :-)
2017-12-15T23:09:41Z AeroNotix: rme: I missed it. Not sure if I mentioned but $DAY_JOB is kind of demanding
2017-12-15T23:09:55Z AeroNotix: I really, really wanted to go
2017-12-15T23:10:00Z jmercouris: Do you work at a startup or something?
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2017-12-15T23:10:04Z AeroNotix: No, I wish. :)
2017-12-15T23:10:05Z rme: I just like to try to put names to faces.
2017-12-15T23:10:19Z jmercouris: rme: Same, but I just have your github profile picture
2017-12-15T23:10:32Z AeroNotix: rme: I think we've spoken before though. You
2017-12-15T23:10:40Z AeroNotix: you're in PL right? Somewhere north of Krakow if I remember correctly?
2017-12-15T23:10:41Z rme: I need a better profile picture.  I was trying to be artistic, but now I think it looks dumb.
2017-12-15T23:11:07Z rme: No, I'm currently on the US west coast.
2017-12-15T23:11:13Z jmercouris: Yeah, I was about to say
2017-12-15T23:11:15Z AeroNotix: Oh, wrong person then
2017-12-15T23:11:16Z jmercouris: I think RME is in SF or something
2017-12-15T23:11:27Z rme: Bellevue, Washington.
2017-12-15T23:11:33Z AeroNotix: I remember speaking to someone in here about the Krakow ELS :P
2017-12-15T23:11:34Z jmercouris: Whoopsie daisy :D
2017-12-15T23:12:19Z jmercouris: rme: You know, that's an interesting name, we have a U Bahn Station here in Berlin named "Bellevue" it's pronounced "Bell Voo"
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2017-12-15T23:12:45Z rme: the silly Americans say "bell view"
2017-12-15T23:12:56Z jmercouris: rme: Are you not American?
2017-12-15T23:12:56Z rme: s/the/We/, I guess.
2017-12-15T23:12:57Z AeroNotix: Where I grew up in the UK we have a pub at the bottom of my mum's road called The Bellevue
2017-12-15T23:13:07Z runejuhl: and the Danes say bællevy :)
2017-12-15T23:13:23Z jmercouris: runejuhl: that's not even a real language
2017-12-15T23:13:29Z runejuhl: jmercouris: I agree!
2017-12-15T23:13:31Z rme: hey now
2017-12-15T23:13:41Z runejuhl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
2017-12-15T23:13:49Z jmercouris: Lol I love that video
2017-12-15T23:13:58Z runejuhl: I rarely link to videos, but man.. that one crack me up every time
2017-12-15T23:14:17Z jmercouris: The thing that makes it funny is that it is too real
2017-12-15T23:14:29Z AeroNotix: it literally sounds like English but played backwards
2017-12-15T23:15:40Z runejuhl: Learning it is even worse... And the number system, sigh
2017-12-15T23:16:16Z AeroNotix: You should try Polish :)
2017-12-15T23:16:38Z runejuhl: For numbers 21-99 we say the last digit first, so 21 would be twenty-one in English and en-og-tyve (lit. one and twenty) in Danish
2017-12-15T23:16:49Z AeroNotix: oh I think French is like that
2017-12-15T23:17:00Z jmercouris: Ah, French is legendary for their "number system"
2017-12-15T23:17:05Z runejuhl: AeroNotix: don't know about that, but German is the same
2017-12-15T23:17:11Z jmercouris: though I think calling it a "number system" is too much dignity for that
2017-12-15T23:17:19Z runejuhl: The Swedes were a bit smarter and decided to do it the logic way
2017-12-15T23:17:36Z jmercouris: runejuhl: Yes, German is the same indeed ein und zwanzig
2017-12-15T23:18:07Z runejuhl: jmercouris: the worst thing is that kids in Danish schools have a harder time learning numbers (and math) because of the language
2017-12-15T23:18:16Z jmercouris: Oh, I totally believe it
2017-12-15T23:18:20Z jmercouris: it is a most moronic way of counting
2017-12-15T23:18:41Z jmercouris: In literally every other language I know, numbers are consistent, except for the germanic derivatives
2017-12-15T23:18:46Z runejuhl: I've heard about teachers using the "correct" way of pronuncing numbers even though it's not valid Danish
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2017-12-15T23:19:10Z jmercouris: that's very interesting, maybe it will shift with time
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2017-12-15T23:19:54Z runejuhl: There are a bunch more oddities about numbers in Danish. The system used to be based on multiples of 20, so 60 is "tres" (3 x 20) and 50 is "halvtreds" (2 x 20 + one half 20)
2017-12-15T23:20:28Z jmercouris: I'm getting a headache just thinking about that
2017-12-15T23:20:28Z AeroNotix: What is mayan diaspora
2017-12-15T23:20:34Z runejuhl: hah
2017-12-15T23:20:35Z AeroNotix: apparently danes
2017-12-15T23:20:44Z runejuhl: I remember that from school
2017-12-15T23:20:50Z runejuhl: Something with dots and dashes
2017-12-15T23:20:51Z jmercouris: Danes are definitely not mayan diaspora
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2017-12-15T23:20:58Z AeroNotix: was a joke :)
2017-12-15T23:21:06Z AeroNotix: mayans had a non base 10 counting system.
2017-12-15T23:21:10Z jmercouris: Oh, I see
2017-12-15T23:21:15Z runejuhl: I'd have stayed there, climate is shitty here...
2017-12-15T23:21:36Z jmercouris: true true
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2017-12-15T23:23:05Z runejuhl: I better get to bed and catch a few zzzzs before my fever-ridden offspring decides to wake up and terrorize me...
2017-12-15T23:23:23Z runejuhl: Godnat allesammen
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2017-12-15T23:25:16Z AeroNotix: night
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2017-12-15T23:25:35Z jmercouris: goodnight
2017-12-15T23:28:06Z rme: I seem to talk to more Lispers in Europe than I do in the US.
2017-12-15T23:28:39Z jmercouris: rme: I'm american, so that's +1 for that side
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2017-12-15T23:45:09Z jasom: so that function now works, but it still has the unreachable code note...
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2017-12-15T23:45:59Z AeroNotix: jasom: link code again, please?
2017-12-15T23:47:24Z jasom: AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/jasom/c95e083e4ba7c42e8321ede0e3d12583
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2017-12-16T00:12:49Z nyef`: jasom: Could this be a variant on https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/998946 ?
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2017-12-16T00:46:28Z AeroNotix: jasom: you should really pare that down to a very small example, I can't run that code you've given me without libraries/etc
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2017-12-16T01:21:14Z earl-ducaine: Lisponians!  Re: style (and maybe functionality), is there ever a reason not to use iterate over loop if you're so disposed?
2017-12-16T01:21:15Z earl-ducaine: e.g., iterate no longer mainted, not as reliable, not as fast, some think it looks barbaric, ambigously defined, keeps you from learning loop, as God intended, etc.
2017-12-16T01:22:23Z nyef`: It's an extra dependency.
2017-12-16T01:23:10Z nyef`: If you're willing to pay that price, plus the price of inconveniencing anyone who doesn't use/know/like iterate that might want to hack on your code, feel free.
2017-12-16T01:24:18Z earl-ducaine: nyef`: Which is not trivial issue, as I'm learning trying to get Garnet to work on a second, non-sbcl CL, so I can get it accepted into quicklisp.  Total dependancy hell.
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2017-12-16T02:02:23Z aeth: earl-ducaine: If you want idiomatic Lisp instead of that loop language, what tends to work is to just write macros on top of do, do-foo, etc. Even occasionally mapfoo, e.g. I wrote a do-hash-table on top of maphash.
2017-12-16T02:03:10Z aeth: What I find is that loop is usually only necessary (as in, a fast alternative will be a mess to write) for collect. There are also possibly a handful of other, very rare forms in loop that I've never encountered.
2017-12-16T02:03:59Z aeth: do isn't really that bad, it's basically let with two additions: an optional step clause (which is functional, so use 1+ instead of incf, etc.) and a terminating condition with an optional return clause after that.
2017-12-16T02:04:23Z aeth: Unfortunately, nearly everyone uses loop, so if you directly use do, people will complain, even though do is perfectly readable if you're used to it.
2017-12-16T02:05:22Z aeth: I suspect iterate will be even worse than do in terms of complaints because at least do's built into the language and is in related languages like Scheme, too.
2017-12-16T02:06:28Z basket: DO feels like writing C
2017-12-16T02:06:42Z aeth: Really? do is purely functional, or at least you can model it that way.
2017-12-16T02:06:57Z basket: Not in Common Lisp it isn't
2017-12-16T02:07:12Z basket: In Scheme it's implemented over lambda application, but the CL version is just a C-style for loop
2017-12-16T02:07:27Z basket: It has different semantics in CL and Scheme with regards to closures for that reason
2017-12-16T02:07:42Z aeth: Even though under the hood it is using tagbody with go and setting the step each iteration, it behaves nearly exactly equivalent to Scheme's do form (afaik, the only difference is the implicit tagbody for local gotos, which only exists in CL), which is implemented tail-recursively.
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2017-12-16T02:08:00Z aeth: And, I suppose, a few other edge cases, like apparently closures.
2017-12-16T02:08:06Z nyef`: Mmm. Every time I run into a DO in CL I have to pull up the relevant CLHS page.
2017-12-16T02:08:37Z basket: aeth: It isn't any more 'functional' than a C-style for loop; it's functional to the extent that the C equivalent is
2017-12-16T02:08:38Z aeth: basket: but, anyway, I treat any do without a body (which can easily be half of them, except maybe some type declarations or temporary print statements) as purely functional.
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2017-12-16T02:09:03Z nyef`: On the one hand, clearly I don't use it enough. On the other, clearly its syntax and semantics aren't memorable enough.
2017-12-16T02:09:16Z basket: Do you feel that way about for loops with empty bodies in C?
2017-12-16T02:09:17Z aeth: The macroexpansion of it is irrelevant. It's not actually setting.
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2017-12-16T02:09:28Z aeth: basket: do has a return clause in CL
2017-12-16T02:09:29Z basket: That's a strange opinion, I think
2017-12-16T02:09:39Z aeth: do without a body is used purely for its return value.
2017-12-16T02:09:45Z aeth: because it is an expression.
2017-12-16T02:09:48Z aeth: This is nothing like C.
2017-12-16T02:10:04Z aeth: Ultimately, all functional programming is implemented in an imperative way.
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2017-12-16T02:10:27Z basket: It is 100% like C except it implicitly assigns a single variable for you whereas in C you have to do it explicitly
2017-12-16T02:10:34Z basket: Otherwise there is no difference whatsoever
2017-12-16T02:11:12Z aeth: Imo, this is a pure functional (and inefficient) way to generate the number 43: (do ((i 0 (1+ i))) ((> i 42) i))
2017-12-16T02:11:32Z aeth: There is no explicit setting there, and even though do is implemented imperatively, it could easily be implemented other ways as well. The actual under-the-hood details of the macro don't matter.
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2017-12-16T02:12:25Z basket: It's purely functional to the extent that 'int i; for (i = 0; i <= 42; ++i) ;' is
2017-12-16T02:12:45Z basket: It is working with mutable variables in ways that are a part of its visible semantics
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2017-12-16T02:13:05Z basket: The fact that you can choose not to take advantage of that doesn't make it different
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2017-12-16T02:13:47Z nyef`: int foo (int i) { if (i <= 42) { return foo(i + 1); } else { return i; } }
2017-12-16T02:13:56Z aeth: basket: the difference is that in the C case, you're quite explicitly repeatedly incrementing the variable i. In the CL do case, you're returning the result of an expression.
2017-12-16T02:14:07Z nyef`: Only, you know, as an anonymous function that is immediately called with 0 as a parameter.
2017-12-16T02:14:18Z aeth: basket: and they're not directly equivalent, the scopes are different.
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2017-12-16T02:14:36Z aeth: The i is internal to the do expression, and since it is not being explicitly set, I do not consider that as imperative.
2017-12-16T02:14:58Z basket: aeth: But it is being set as a mutable assignment. That is part of DO's semantics
2017-12-16T02:15:09Z basket: If it worked how it did in Scheme a lot of Lisp programs would break
2017-12-16T02:15:23Z nyef`: ... Somewhere or other there needs to be a paper (or article) titled "The evolution of scopes in Lisp".
2017-12-16T02:15:44Z aeth: basket: But that part is irrelevant if you're not using it.
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2017-12-16T02:16:19Z basket: aeth: Yes, C is the same way
2017-12-16T02:16:26Z aeth: C is not the same way.
2017-12-16T02:16:37Z basket: Why not?
2017-12-16T02:16:39Z aeth: C is explicitly mutable, even in your simple example.
2017-12-16T02:16:54Z basket: I is being mutably reassigned, even in your simple Lisp example
2017-12-16T02:17:07Z basket: It being implicit about it doesn't mean it isn't happening, and it isn't hard to write programs that show it's happening
2017-12-16T02:17:30Z basket: Similarly, it's not hard to write C programs that would work whether or not it worked as in Scheme with rebindings
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2017-12-16T02:19:29Z aeth: If you write a program that shows that it's happening, then you're no longer using do in a functional way.
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2017-12-16T02:20:15Z aeth: It's not hard to produce useful do programs without any visible side effects. Sure, the variables still implicitly mutate, but they mutate in controlled ways, which is pretty much how functional programming works under the hood anyway.
2017-12-16T02:20:24Z basket: Yes, but the fact that DO exposes an imperative interface, and it's your responsibility to only use it in a way that does not take advantage of that, means that calling DO a purely functional operator is nonsense
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2017-12-16T02:20:52Z basket: It is an imperative construct that produces visible side effects as a result of operating on mutable state
2017-12-16T02:20:59Z aeth: That's how you do purely functional programming in CL. You can override it, but you show discipline and don't.
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2017-12-16T02:21:04Z basket: You can use it in a functional way, the same way you can use anything in a functional way
2017-12-16T02:21:11Z basket: Including C
2017-12-16T02:21:20Z basket: aeth: CL has lambda, actually
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2017-12-16T02:22:01Z aeth: You can't really write functional C to any meaningful extent. You'll be combating the langauge every step of the way.
2017-12-16T02:23:16Z aeth: And if you do that by some miracle, it'll be pretty slow because the langauge isn't made for that.
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2017-12-16T02:24:47Z basket: aeth: How is using mutable state purely functional?
2017-12-16T02:25:14Z aeth: Purely functional is an abstraction on top of something that is actually mutable.
2017-12-16T02:25:15Z basket: I thought your argument was that you can use it in such a way that the mutable state is localised and presents an immutable interface, like your specific DO example
2017-12-16T02:25:19Z basket: That's not hard to do in C
2017-12-16T02:25:52Z aeth: It's much harder to do in C than CL.
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2017-12-16T02:27:12Z basket: If you're ok with hiding what's going on in CL, why would you stop at a C-style for loop but with return values?
2017-12-16T02:27:22Z basket: That seems like a very low level interface
2017-12-16T02:27:27Z aeth: How do you do multiple return values in a pure way in C?
2017-12-16T02:27:58Z basket: What do multiple return values have to do with functional programming?
2017-12-16T02:28:24Z aeth: I'm just demonstrating something that you can do trivially in a pure FP way in CL, but afaik cannot do trivially in a pure FP way in C.
2017-12-16T02:28:32Z basket: What?
2017-12-16T02:28:42Z aeth: Multiple return values are quite useful. C idioms to emulate this don't really mix well with FP.
2017-12-16T02:29:08Z basket: It's totally irrelevant to functional programming
2017-12-16T02:29:47Z basket: ML, Erlang, Haskell, most Schemes, etc, don't have multiple return values
2017-12-16T02:29:59Z aeth: Idiomatic C is afaik to do something equivalent to multiple return values is pass by reference and mutate. I suppose a potentially pure alternative is to return a data structure that holds the multiple values, but because C isn't GCed, you now have to manage that.
2017-12-16T02:31:13Z aeth: Actually, I think most Schemes do have multiple return values. And it even made its way into the standard document. It's there in r7rs at the very least.
2017-12-16T02:31:42Z basket: What does it have to do with functional programming?
2017-12-16T02:31:46Z aeth: The specification for Scheme is quite picky about what it lets in because people want it to be minimal.
2017-12-16T02:32:08Z basket: Does the standard include it because you can't implement it with lambda application, then?
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2017-12-16T02:32:53Z aeth: basket: Looks like you can implement it with call/cc in Scheme, apparently.
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2017-12-16T02:33:05Z basket: call/cc isn't functional
2017-12-16T02:35:26Z aeth: Anyway, while FP doesn't require multiple return values, I use multiple return values all the time, *especially* in my functional CL code. If you return multiple non-boxed values (e.g. fixnums or (in 64-bit implementations) single-floats), you don't heap allocate. So it's very useful in CL pure functions.
2017-12-16T02:36:21Z _death: usage of DO constitutes of two styles, those with a body and those without.. the latter is usually functional
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2017-12-16T02:37:54Z aeth: You can technically create side effects in the other forms like the return form or the step parts of the variable bindings. But this is rare, and if you're doing this, you'll probably be better off just making a regular style do with a body.
2017-12-16T02:37:59Z basket: aeth: I would argue that multiple return values are more common in imperative code than functional code, in the form of out parameters. That's certainly an imperative interface, like DO, but you can use it in a functional way, like you can with DO, so I don't see how you could defend DO as functional but object to those as imperative
2017-12-16T02:38:06Z basket: They're useful in either paradigm, though
2017-12-16T02:39:02Z aeth: basket: Multiple return values enforce immutability when you're using them with basic things like numbers.
2017-12-16T02:39:14Z basket: What?
2017-12-16T02:39:20Z aeth: you can't redefine 42f0
2017-12-16T02:39:24Z aeth: you can't mutate parts of it.
2017-12-16T02:39:48Z _death: you can always use LIST instead of multiple values, they are simply for efficiency
2017-12-16T02:40:00Z aeth: If you return (values 42f0 42f0 42f0) it's guaranteed pure. If you return (list 42f0 42f0 42f0) someone can (setf (car l) 41f0) or something once it's returned.
2017-12-16T02:40:21Z basket: aeth: And if you use DO you are mutating the loop variables
2017-12-16T02:40:29Z basket: You're giving DO a pass because you can write code that doesn't
2017-12-16T02:40:38Z basket: You can also be disciplined in your use of out parameters
2017-12-16T02:40:51Z basket: Code that doesn't take advantage of that mutation I mean
2017-12-16T02:41:15Z aeth: basket: You're missing the importance here. If you're returning values, and then using those values in multiple-value-call, etc., you're ensuring that the whole section of code is purely functional because you're not using a data structure where discipline is keeping it from mutating. And, of course, if you're using data structures in CL, mutability will probably be more efficient, too.
2017-12-16T02:41:16Z _death: you can think of DO as a recursive macro that's functional
2017-12-16T02:41:55Z basket: aeth: But you said DO was ok because you can write code that doesn't take advantage of the mutation. DO does not enforce that you don't
2017-12-16T02:42:00Z aeth: An entire section of code that works on multiple values, as returns and as parameters to a new function call, is pure. No way to cheat.
2017-12-16T02:42:11Z _death: (that is, a macro that expands to iteration in the form of self-referncing functional call..)
2017-12-16T02:42:17Z basket: So it has the exact same problems you are now complaining about
2017-12-16T02:44:09Z aeth: If you mean do has problems over using a set of pure functions, yes.
2017-12-16T02:44:17Z aeth: It has advantages, too, though. Usually more efficient.
2017-12-16T02:44:26Z basket: Because it's a for loop
2017-12-16T02:44:31Z basket: They're useful sometimes
2017-12-16T02:44:37Z aeth: Do is not a for loop.
2017-12-16T02:44:40Z basket: I was just objecting to you calling it functional
2017-12-16T02:44:42Z basket: Yes it is
2017-12-16T02:44:54Z aeth: If you think do is a for loop, you haven't seen advanced (ab)uses of do
2017-12-16T02:45:02Z basket: It can return a value
2017-12-16T02:45:10Z basket: That is the only difference
2017-12-16T02:45:25Z basket: It is still an imperative construct built on jumps and mutable assignment, and that mutable assignment is part of its visible semantics
2017-12-16T02:45:25Z aeth: That is a huge difference. for loops statements are necessarily used for their side effects while do is an expression
2017-12-16T02:46:11Z basket: I don't understand how you can defend DO because you can write code that is oblivious to the mutable semantics, but you simultaneously write off out parameters because they allow writing code that takes advantage of it
2017-12-16T02:46:31Z basket: DO also allows writing code that takes advantage of it, and you can also write code that is oblivious to the mutability in out parameters
2017-12-16T02:49:16Z aeth: Using multiple return values of non-mutable objects like numbers enforces purely functional code in that section of the program. The performance overhead isn't high, and afaik most of that performance overhead is already paid for by implementing support for multiple return values in the first place, whether or not you use them. Inline those pure functions and good compiler magic can happen.
2017-12-16T02:49:35Z aeth: That was my argument w.r.t. returning multiple values.
2017-12-16T02:49:49Z basket: Yes, I'm saying it contradicts your point about DO
2017-12-16T02:50:05Z basket: When you were talking about out parameters, you explained why your argument about DO was faulty
2017-12-16T02:50:23Z _death: here is a simplistic functional DO: https://gist.github.com/death/3ca4dab9770ffce2910f853f08ad1b66
2017-12-16T02:50:27Z aeth: Using do directly isn't perfect. It's much better to write a macro on top of do if you can get away with it.
2017-12-16T02:50:31Z _death: (I am a bit drunk, so excuse the code :)
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2017-12-16T02:51:06Z aeth: It's not a contradiction to make different design compromises in different parts of the program. It's idiomatic CL to do so. CL is incredibly multi-paradigm, perhaps the most multi-paradigm language out there.
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2017-12-16T02:51:28Z basket: aeth: But you said it was functional
2017-12-16T02:51:30Z basket: That was your word
2017-12-16T02:52:04Z aeth: do, like many parts of the CL standard, can be used in a functional way but is not required to be used in a functional way. This is especially apparent in iteration, e.g. map.
2017-12-16T02:52:37Z basket: MAP is not required to use visibly imperative semantics
2017-12-16T02:52:46Z aeth: map nil
2017-12-16T02:52:56Z aeth: Do something useful with map nil without side effects :-p
2017-12-16T02:53:09Z basket: That's what the function you give it does, not what MAP does
2017-12-16T02:53:49Z aeth: You're splitting hairs. "map nil" exists because it's a common enough use of map.
2017-12-16T02:54:02Z basket: Mutating the object being traversed in a call to map is explicitly undefined behaviour in the standard
2017-12-16T02:54:17Z basket: DO's imperative semantics are explicitly laid out as its semantics
2017-12-16T02:54:21Z basket: That is not splitting hairs
2017-12-16T02:55:10Z basket: The fact that you can pass an impure function to MAP is not the same thing as MAP's interface *forcing* you to use mutable state
2017-12-16T02:55:40Z aeth: "map nil" pretty much forces you to use a mutable state, just not the sequence(s) being iterated over.
2017-12-16T02:55:57Z basket: That has nothing at all to do with how MAP works, aeth
2017-12-16T02:56:37Z basket: It calls a function that it's passed; the body of that function is not part of MAP's definition
2017-12-16T02:56:48Z aeth: It has everything to do with how map works. "map" provides support for a "nil" return so you can use it for dirty, impure things.
2017-12-16T02:57:25Z basket: And if that function does something mutable that might affect how MAP works, it's UB
2017-12-16T02:57:50Z aeth: UB that usually breaks things
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2017-12-16T02:58:02Z basket: You're confusing MAP with arguments to MAP
2017-12-16T02:58:47Z aeth: map nil is essentially CL's foreach, especially since the other equivalent, dolist, only works on lists, not sequences in general.
2017-12-16T02:59:16Z basket: Again, you're confusing functions with their uses
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2017-12-16T03:01:35Z aeth: Is "for foo in foobar" pure if the language makes it UB if you mutate foobar? And if it's not pure, is there really that much of a difference between a lambda in map nil and a statement body in a for each statement?
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2017-12-16T03:03:54Z basket: aeth: Yes, the specified part of its semantics are pure, provided that `foo` is a fresh binding on each iteration
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2017-12-16T03:04:17Z basket: Because it has no inherently mutable semantics defined for it
2017-12-16T03:04:37Z aeth: okay
2017-12-16T03:04:48Z basket: It could be implemented as a macro on top of pure lambda application; it does not take advantage of mutable state
2017-12-16T03:04:59Z basket: Neither of those are true for Common Lisp's DO operator
2017-12-16T03:05:06Z aeth: correct
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2017-12-16T03:06:09Z aeth: The do operator is more of a super-iteration thing that wants to make everything possible. If you want to build your own iteration, pure or impure, and restrict it, you can directly use do, or use macros that probably directly use do like dotimes or dolist (although they're not required to use do)
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2017-12-16T03:06:45Z aeth: You could write _death's functional-do on top of do.
2017-12-16T03:07:52Z basket: aeth: And you can implement mutable semantics on top of lambdas, too; that's just turing completeness
2017-12-16T03:08:06Z basket: That's the context in which Scheme's do was initially introduced
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2017-12-16T03:10:31Z aeth: CL is basically a language for writing (mostly) efficient declarative languages, while not itself being declarative (which wouldn't really be possible, there are many kinds of declarative languages)
2017-12-16T03:11:08Z aeth: I'm using the definition of declarative that includes FP under declarative. Wikipedia uses this definition.
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2017-12-16T03:12:31Z aeth: Another possible phrase other than 'declarative languages' would be 'fifth-generation programming languages'. This is sufficiently archaic enough that it might have been an explicit goal of CL.
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2017-12-16T03:13:47Z whoman: some people like to work with limbs, some like to play with guys. others prefer the clothings or outer garments, while others yet freely form their style
2017-12-16T03:14:02Z aeth: You want ugly mutability to be possible in something like CL's do because you might need it when writing an interpreter or compile-to-CL compiler or whatever you're writing. If you want it to be functional, either restrict your use of do (through discipline) or build a pure macro on top of do (trivial)
2017-12-16T03:14:06Z whoman: parens are like skeletal ribs,, =P
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2017-12-16T03:15:47Z whoman: when skeleton protrudes flesh, we have horns and other undesirable jagged and bony features. it is good that the system works right all together with itself. CL is ultra-powerful about that
2017-12-16T03:16:01Z whoman: (smalltalk too iircafaik)
2017-12-16T03:16:53Z dmiles: aeth: speaking of mutibility.. i have be struggling within DO deciding between compiling to prolog to use a mutable loop vs a non mutable loop :) non mutable loops are ugly to look at and debug
2017-12-16T03:17:40Z dmiles: right now i doing non-mutable.. but about to change that
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2017-12-16T03:17:58Z aeth: dmiles: that's a good question, and I haven't really found a satisfactory answer
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2017-12-16T03:18:29Z aeth: the mutability often makes it a million times clearer, yes
2017-12-16T03:18:38Z dmiles: oh also non mutable lops secretly make the system slower
2017-12-16T03:18:55Z dmiles: loops*
2017-12-16T03:19:02Z dmiles: at least for mine
2017-12-16T03:19:05Z nyef`: Aww... No bunny jokes?
2017-12-16T03:19:10Z tko: which lisp do you guys prefer , I've been using clojure and at times elisp but I'm about to try common lisp
2017-12-16T03:19:20Z aeth: dmiles: Have you considered writing custom iteration macros?
2017-12-16T03:19:46Z nyef`: tko: This is a Common Lisp channel, so the argument here will be about particular Common Lisp implementations. SBCL being the best, of course. d-:
2017-12-16T03:20:14Z dmiles: aeth: well i started out basing everything on tagbody compiel design for a worsecases jumping arround.. but indeed i might simplify it
2017-12-16T03:20:15Z tko: aha oh ok,  this is about my first time on irc, I'm connecting through emacs and just searched "lisp"
2017-12-16T03:21:04Z aeth: tko: #lisp is for Common Lisp and possibly direct historical precursors to Common Lisp, ##lisp is for the Lisp family of languages.
2017-12-16T03:21:05Z tko: I'm pretty sure sbcl is what I just installed
2017-12-16T03:21:18Z tko: ok, thank you
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2017-12-16T03:21:30Z aeth: dmiles: every time I've started out with tagbody and go, I've found do simplifies it
2017-12-16T03:21:31Z dmiles: aeth: meaning i might need ot make 3-4 idioms that  custom to my ideal
2017-12-16T03:22:22Z dmiles: aeth: *nod* my DO convert to a tagbody
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2017-12-16T03:23:23Z nyef`: tko: Also, whatever version of SBCL you just installed is probably out-of-date already. Last release was SBCL 1.4.2. Current git HEAD is 1.4.2.215 or so.
2017-12-16T03:24:00Z aeth: dmiles: What I personally find useful for advanced things (and Prolog would count) is to write a lot of macros, and perhaps use those macros in other macros.
2017-12-16T03:24:06Z dmiles: not that nayone aked but this is my DO / DO*  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/block.pl#L86-L103
2017-12-16T03:25:02Z aeth: that is... prolog?
2017-12-16T03:25:09Z dmiles: yes
2017-12-16T03:25:25Z nyef`: tko: But don't let that stop you. My primary installed SBCL is 1.3.8.26 or so, and I keep a 1.0.23 around for some things.
2017-12-16T03:25:44Z dmiles: prolog sorta works wonderfully mixed with lisp
2017-12-16T03:26:33Z aeth: That's definitely not the kind of Prolog they teach in schools!
2017-12-16T03:26:35Z dmiles: lines 930-103 is of course lisp fiorms
2017-12-16T03:27:51Z tko: nyef`: oh it won't,  unless it turns out it has some new feature I really need
2017-12-16T03:27:54Z dmiles: aeth: i write in imperative prolog about 50/50 from declarative.. i think they only teach declaritive
2017-12-16T03:29:11Z dmiles: aeth: my favorite cartoon:  http://www.pathwayslms.com/swipltuts/teacher/images/cartoon_08.png
2017-12-16T03:29:38Z nyef`: tko: Fair enough. I'm looking forwards to the 1.4.3 release, as a bug that I really need fixed just got fixed recently. As in within the last twelve hours.
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2017-12-16T03:30:37Z aeth: dmiles: I guess people who learn Lisp in school think it's about purely functionally processing lists (which is wrong on multiple levels) and people who learn Prolog in school probably think it's... sort of like SQL for classical logic, I guess. Define some relations and deduce things in a query.
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2017-12-16T03:31:10Z nyef`: ... Given some of the stunts that I've pulled or seen pulled in SQL...
2017-12-16T03:31:35Z dmiles: aeth: exactly
2017-12-16T03:32:46Z aeth: nyef`: If you like abuse of SQL, wait until I complete the transitioning of my entity-component-system to an in-memory database. Then you'll see some fun abuse of queries.
2017-12-16T03:33:51Z dmiles: i've always wanted to see a OO program be completely backed by a database
2017-12-16T03:34:28Z dmiles: (it is onyl completely natural)
2017-12-16T03:34:51Z aeth: dmiles: Does the MOP let you abstract over the concept of a slot completely? I might make an "ORM" of sorts to make things easier to debug and inspect interactively.
2017-12-16T03:35:46Z dmiles: so far as a can tell so far, it does  let me abstract over the concept of as slot (or field)
2017-12-16T03:36:23Z dmiles: but i'd like to hear opinions as to where our thinking might break downj
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2017-12-16T03:36:58Z aeth: well, if I can just say that the slot foo is really (aref whatever (id-to-index 42)) and slot bar is really (array-row-of-4 something-else (id-to-index 42)) then nothing's stopping me from writing an "ORM" of sorts.
2017-12-16T03:37:38Z dmiles: teh difficult part for me (when putting objects into the cold storage of the database) is when people are messign with cones suppoedly in a slot
2017-12-16T03:37:57Z dmiles: conses at a slot
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2017-12-16T03:38:37Z dmiles: i have to keep such a CONS in warm livving memory.. and make the coldly stored slot value a ppointer to live memory
2017-12-16T03:39:04Z aeth: In case I was unclear, (array-row-of-2 some-array some-index) returns (values (aref some-array some-index 0) (aref some-array some-index 1)) and the setter is similar, except it'll take in n values (2, 3, or 4 depending on which one)
2017-12-16T03:39:25Z aeth: I demonstrated the 2-length one instead of the 4-length one for obvious reasons.
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2017-12-16T03:40:30Z aeth: dmiles: That's not an issue for me, since my "database" is just going to be abstractions over 1D or 2D arrays, depending on what's being stored (i.e. either a simple value or an array row)
2017-12-16T03:41:20Z aeth: It can, of course, be written to disk for persistence, such as saving a game, although maybe save-lisp-and-die should be the only way to save a game :-p
2017-12-16T03:43:17Z aeth: Types will be a bit of a problem because only character and bit arrays are guaranteed. In fact, with my approach, character arrays themselves are problematic.
2017-12-16T03:43:21Z dmiles: what is returned by (values (aref some-array some-index 0) (aref some-array some-index 1))   going to be the values copied over or more liek places?
2017-12-16T03:43:42Z dmiles: (i know in lisp this values copied over)
2017-12-16T03:44:01Z aeth: At the moment, I only put in things that are (probably) specialized arrays so I don't have to worry about it. e.g. single-float or various integers or bits
2017-12-16T03:44:25Z aeth: If I want to support more types, I'll have issues, and I'll also have to wrap around check-type in places etc.
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2017-12-16T03:46:09Z aeth: dmiles: I don't think it copies ever, though.
2017-12-16T03:46:35Z aeth: I'm pretty sure the only time you copy in CL is explicitly, e.g. copy-foo (a struct foo automatically define a copy-foo) or copy-seq
2017-12-16T03:47:50Z dmiles: before you said specialized typed arrays i was sorta was imagining that you were copying a reference .. like a pointer to the nth index of the array
2017-12-16T03:48:47Z dmiles: but that is a whole different concept from what you were taslking about
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2017-12-16T03:49:56Z dmiles: i was thinking about how in some situations seeing what is even there at that refenrce is not needed until it was needed
2017-12-16T03:50:28Z dmiles: (by whatever code used VALUES)
2017-12-16T03:51:05Z Bike: numbers and characters can be copied by the implementation. that's basically it.
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2017-12-16T03:52:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-16T03:52:12Z tko: bood morning
2017-12-16T03:52:17Z dmiles: Bike any thoughts on aeth's and my question?   <aeth> dmiles: Does the MOP let you abstract over the concept of a slot completely?
2017-12-16T03:52:47Z Bike: i'm not sure what that means. you can definie pretty different slot concepts, at least.
2017-12-16T03:52:52Z aeth: Well the actual use right now is to essentially copy with-accessors, but with the addition of an index because the accessors all have an additional index, with three possibilities: (aref foo index) (aref foo index another-index) (array-row-of-n foo index) where n is 2, 3, or 4 at the moment (doing it generally cannot be as efficient). The first two return a value, the third returns n values. The first two set one value, the third sets n val
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2017-12-16T03:53:11Z dmiles: i guess my question actualyl is: "can slots actually be the complete  abstraction?"
2017-12-16T03:53:17Z aeth: the third sets n values. (These are accessors, setf array-row-of-n is defined for sizes 2, 3, and 4)
2017-12-16T03:53:22Z Bike: i have even less idea of what that means, dmiles
2017-12-16T03:54:03Z beach: dmiles: Your recent questions make me more and more convinced that you don't know the semantics of Common Lisp.
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2017-12-16T03:54:28Z dmiles: beach: which question in particualr?
2017-12-16T03:55:23Z beach: Well, not a question this time, but things like "like a pointer to the nth index of the array".
2017-12-16T03:56:04Z dmiles: beach: perhaps aeth and i should discuss this in another channel
2017-12-16T03:56:18Z aeth: an example of my abstraction in its current state: (with-selection ecs (entity-id) ((location (old-location old-location :row-of 3) (location location :row-of 3))) (setf old-location location))
2017-12-16T03:56:43Z beach: dmiles: Whatever.  I am not going to get involved.
2017-12-16T03:57:59Z aeth: accessors can be ":row-of n" where n is 2, 3, or 4. These work with multiple values (either providing them or requiring them in the setf). It can also be e.g. "1" such as (location.y location 1) and it can also be something simple if it's not a 2D array, e.g. (foo? foo?) where foo? is, unfortunately a bit of 1 or 0 instead of a boolean. This is one place where the abstraction leaks. bit arrays are optimized, boolean ones are not.
2017-12-16T03:59:57Z aeth: An object abstraction over this would probably be to get everything that's defined for some ID, and pretend that it's one object so it's easy to do something like e.g. print the object or inspect it in slime. This would be very easy if slots can return and set multiple values. I'm not sure if they can. And if they can, would it break the SLIME inspector?
2017-12-16T04:00:50Z dmiles: aeth: good example
2017-12-16T04:00:58Z Bike: multiple values aren't really a thing that can be stored, or a thing at all
2017-12-16T04:01:14Z Bike: you would just have multiple slots
2017-12-16T04:02:21Z aeth: That's not that big of an issue because there are two ways to access the 2D arrays, either one slot at a time (like my example where I bind a location.y) or as multiple values
2017-12-16T04:03:18Z dmiles: aeth: by multiple values you mean they return the row?
2017-12-16T04:03:53Z dmiles: aeth: by multiple values you mean the row?
2017-12-16T04:04:01Z aeth: I may have to define official names for them, though. At the moment any slot names for a slot in a 2D array are only bound at the accessor level, i.e. (location.y location 1) binds (aref location some-index 1) to location.y in a symbol-macrolet not unlike with-accessors
2017-12-16T04:04:14Z aeth: dmiles: Well, not really, since that would require bounds checking and this is for a game engine.
2017-12-16T04:05:39Z aeth: dmiles: I defined array-row-of-2, array-row-of-3, and array-row-of-4 as accessors (both to get values and set values). You can use them improperly. If you e.g. (setf (array-row-of-2 some-array-with-length-four-rows 42) (values 1f0 2f0)) it'll just set the two fields. If you do the reverse and do array-row-of-4 on something with length-two rows, it will fail with a runtime error unless safety is 0, which no one should ever use.
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2017-12-16T04:07:10Z Bike: i don't understand what multiple values have to do with slots. you defined some multiple value accessors, no big.
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2017-12-16T04:08:10Z dmiles: aeth: oh, i hear you, you are thinking about wether or not it is sensible to create an accessor
2017-12-16T04:08:34Z aeth: Bike: If I can abuse the MOP to work somewhat like this as well, I create an alternative interface into the database that's more first-class within the language, so I could have more debugging power.
2017-12-16T04:08:59Z dmiles: aeth: sensible in the sense that there is at least some translation in which debugging would be livable
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2017-12-16T04:09:15Z aeth: i.e. if slots can simply access into the arrays similar to my accessors
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2017-12-16T04:09:28Z Bike: i don't see what multiple values adds to debugging. they're not fun to debug, in my experience.
2017-12-16T04:09:51Z Bike: if you were dedicated, you could probably define an alternate standard-object with a completely overriden allocate-instance so that slot values are stored in an array or whatever.
2017-12-16T04:10:09Z aeth: well, multiple values allows me to do an easy copy, e.g.: (setf old-location location)
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2017-12-16T04:10:19Z aeth: or (setf location (values x y z)) as a way to initially set location
2017-12-16T04:10:29Z Bike: sure, but that has nothing to do with slots.
2017-12-16T04:10:34Z jasom: anyone know of a decent library for making a fininte state machine in lisp?  something like a LABELS inside LOOP would be nice.  Mutually recursive functions work with proper optimization settings, but I've been told not to do that in common lisp :P
2017-12-16T04:10:56Z jasom: I can write it myself, but trying not to reinvent the wheel too much
2017-12-16T04:11:06Z aeth: Bike: well, I was wondering if I could make a similar interface through CLOS, although I guess I *can*, just as accessors, rather than as slots, and the slots would have to use the direct one-value accessor.
2017-12-16T04:11:31Z Bike: yes. that's what i'm saying. i don't understand why you want multiple value slots when you already have multiple value accessors.
2017-12-16T04:12:23Z nyef`: jasom: Is there some reason that just writing your FSM out longhand is inappropriate?
2017-12-16T04:12:42Z aeth: The main thing I'd want from CLOS is a way to see an ID as an object rather than a bunch of arrays that mostly contain irrelevant values. It doesn't even need to be efficient, since ideally it'd only be used for debugging purposes like defining a print-object.
2017-12-16T04:12:58Z aeth: I would also ideally want to be able to use the SLIME inspector.
2017-12-16T04:13:03Z aeth: Essentially, an alternative way to query.
2017-12-16T04:13:24Z Bike: you have an alternate way to query, with your accessors.
2017-12-16T04:13:48Z jasom: nyef`: well I find tagbody looks good for writing out longhand, but labels with a loop has the logic inside-out and is problematic to indent automatically.
2017-12-16T04:13:51Z Bike: slots are like, the actual storage. you can access it multiple ways.
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2017-12-16T04:14:13Z jasom: but of course tagbody doesn't let you parameterize the states
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2017-12-16T04:14:39Z aeth: Bike: Yes, but what I would want is a CLOS object that can have slots called e.g. location.x, location.y, location.z, etc. And then if I inspect that object, location.x will show the value of (aref location (id-to-index entity-id) 0) and location.y would show the value of (aref location (id-to-index entity-id) 1) etc.
2017-12-16T04:14:45Z nyef`: What's the matter with the mutually-tail-recursive functions?
2017-12-16T04:14:59Z Bike: what is location?
2017-12-16T04:15:12Z aeth: location is more commonly known as position, but that name's taken in CL.
2017-12-16T04:15:24Z Bike: what is it. where is it.
2017-12-16T04:15:30Z aeth: It is an entity's position in the world. 3 single-float values, normally. Some systems use double-float if the worlds are massive.
2017-12-16T04:15:37Z jasom: nyef`: people reading the code complain "This isn't scheme"
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2017-12-16T04:15:52Z jasom: *cough* use integers for coordinates *cough*
2017-12-16T04:15:53Z aeth: What it actually is, in my system, is a row of a 2D array.
2017-12-16T04:16:15Z Bike: so you want an object that doesn't actually store its position, it just stores an index into some global array.
2017-12-16T04:16:26Z aeth: not global
2017-12-16T04:16:38Z aeth: It's an array in a struct in a struct.
2017-12-16T04:16:46Z Bike: multiple objects have indices into this array? global enough.
2017-12-16T04:16:54Z aeth: yeah
2017-12-16T04:17:04Z aeth: At the moment the arbitrary cap is 2500
2017-12-16T04:17:12Z Bike: okay, so, again, why do these need to be actual slots, rather than just accessors?
2017-12-16T04:17:39Z jasom: and you can override print-object to show the actual coordinates ...
2017-12-16T04:17:50Z aeth: I use accessors without having any standard-objects already, and it works fine.
2017-12-16T04:18:04Z aeth: But I would like to be able to use the SLIME inspector, have defined print-objects, etc.
2017-12-16T04:18:19Z dmiles: having slots is so you can at least feel like you are holding an object in your hands?
2017-12-16T04:18:22Z aeth: i.e. I would like to make a CLOS object whose slots are accessors, if that's at all possible
2017-12-16T04:18:24Z Bike: what is preventing you from defining a print object method
2017-12-16T04:18:26Z jasom: structs are also standard-objects btw
2017-12-16T04:18:34Z aeth: Bike: there is no object
2017-12-16T04:18:40Z jasom: structs are also objects rather
2017-12-16T04:18:54Z Bike: uh, so what argument would print-object be getting, exactly
2017-12-16T04:18:58Z jasom: you can specialize print-object for any class, including structs
2017-12-16T04:19:01Z Bike: as its... object
2017-12-16T04:19:54Z jasom: clhs defstruct
2017-12-16T04:19:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2017-12-16T04:19:59Z dmiles: having slots is so you can at least feel like you are holding an object in your hands?  I see yes.. so you can use things like print-object can even change values on the target if needbe
2017-12-16T04:20:06Z jasom: " defstruct without a :type option defines a class with the structure name as its name. The metaclass of structure instances is structure-class. "
2017-12-16T04:20:28Z aeth: Bike: I can have an entity with the label cube which is mapped to the ID 42 which is mapped to the index 37 (well, I haven't written the third part quite yet, but that's coming very soon... at the moment IDs are the indices). The entity doesn't exist. There are many arrays.
2017-12-16T04:20:44Z Bike: that doesn't answer my question
2017-12-16T04:20:49Z aeth: Bike: The entity is index 37 in every array where I say the index 37 is valid.
2017-12-16T04:21:49Z Bike: perhaps i should be more explicit. there is no need for you to use print-object for printing some non-object. you can have your own printing function to print it. this is no loss to you since nothing could possibly call print-object on your object because there is no object.
2017-12-16T04:22:28Z Bike: if you wanted, you could define a kind of proxy object that just stores 37 and defines a bunch of accessors, but you haven't, which presumably you have some reason for.
2017-12-16T04:22:35Z aeth: Well, I could (if I modify my query system to allow for an "all") write something called print-entity that queries all of the places where 37 is a valid index, and prints it as if it's one object.
2017-12-16T04:22:58Z Bike: indeed.
2017-12-16T04:24:58Z aeth: But I'm wondering how deep I can go in making a proxy object, which could have uses where the query macro(s) fail, although the performance would probably not make it anything useful outside of debugging.
2017-12-16T04:25:27Z Bike: you can obviously define a proxy object and define a print object method on it that prints whatever you want, and the object having data in its slots is immaterial.
2017-12-16T04:25:28Z aeth: If I could actually have proxy slots instead of proxy accessors, I could use the SLIME inspector itself.
2017-12-16T04:25:38Z Bike: the inspector is trickier, but the inspector isn't customizable anyway.
2017-12-16T04:25:58Z aeth: So does it not work on non-standard slot definitions?
2017-12-16T04:26:12Z Bike: the inspector? the inspector is wholly implementation defined.
2017-12-16T04:26:40Z Bike: i think swank has some kind of interface you can customize, but it might not be exported.
2017-12-16T04:27:03Z Bike: you can customize describe, if that matters.
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2017-12-16T04:27:38Z tom45: hi
2017-12-16T04:28:00Z aeth: It would be very useful (more useful than just a print, which I can do through a query macro with some small changes) if I could somehow inspect an object and see the slots as if it was an object, even though they're just slots in various arrays.
2017-12-16T04:29:45Z Bike: well, look at swank::inspect-object
2017-12-16T04:30:02Z Bike: that general area
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2017-12-16T04:32:58Z beach: Hello tom45.
2017-12-16T04:33:18Z Bike: swank:emacs-inspect, not that it's intended for you
2017-12-16T04:33:53Z beach: tom45: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-12-16T04:35:10Z aeth: Bike: thanks, looks like going beyond that it's defmethod all-slots-for-inspector ((object standard-object))
2017-12-16T04:35:21Z aeth: in swank-fancy-inspector.lisp
2017-12-16T04:36:06Z Bike: shorter version: if you want to inspect weird things, you don't need to parlay that into sweeping ideas about clos
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2017-12-16T04:38:56Z aeth: It looks like swank uses the MOP, so if the MOP is powerful enough to change the concept of what a slot is, I should be able to make it SLIME inspectable without having to modify swank. i.e. if I can make a slot a call to an accessor (well, actually two since I don't actually know what the index is, only what the ID is)
2017-12-16T04:40:03Z Bike: does this legitimately strike you as more sensible than customizing the inspector
2017-12-16T04:40:59Z aeth: The inspector is just what I know would be useful now. If I use the MOP, it's possible that there's a future use to the object abstraction.
2017-12-16T04:41:36Z aeth: So I'm not sure.
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2017-12-16T04:49:22Z aeth: One thing I could do that's probably easier and even less efficient is to have a query object, i.e. query into an object or something.
2017-12-16T04:49:42Z aeth: This is probably the first thing that I would have thought of in a less powerful language without a MOP
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2017-12-16T04:55:12Z aeth: i.e. instead of having the object constructed via the MOP to directly access the slots, I construct an object in a similar way that I would do something like print-entity, except returning an object with populated slots from the accessors instead of writing to a stream.
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2017-12-16T04:58:36Z tko: hmm I just started CL a few minutes about coming from Clojure but I'm curious what this convo is all about
2017-12-16T04:59:00Z tko: I don't know anything about MOP / CLOS, although CLOS is one of the first things I wanted to look into with common lisp
2017-12-16T04:59:11Z tko: a few minutes ago coming from*
2017-12-16T05:01:24Z aeth: tko: I have a very elaborate data structure. Because it's elaborate, it's not easy to inspect the contents in an intuitive way.
2017-12-16T05:02:09Z aeth: One way to inspect the contents in an intuitive way would be to allocate a temporary standard-object (i.e. an object that's created with a CLOS defclass) that somehow has the same contents because those are trivial to inspect.
2017-12-16T05:03:24Z aeth: Things are inspected through SLIME, the CL IDE for Emacs. swank is the protocol that SLIME uses to talk to a running CL.
2017-12-16T05:04:17Z aeth: Technically, other editors and IDEs can write their own SLIME-like thing using swank, but nearly everyone programs CL in Emacs+SLIME.
2017-12-16T05:05:35Z tko: so the temporary standard object would be like an object that contains all the values of your structure (or less) and that is organized in a way thats easier to read or interpret?
2017-12-16T05:05:44Z aeth: sort of
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2017-12-16T05:06:30Z aeth: It would combine all of the pieces of data that represent an entity into one object. Which would be 1/2500 of the data structure, if it's filled to the arbitrary constant cap I set for it.
2017-12-16T05:06:39Z aeth: Well, worst case 1/2500.
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2017-12-16T05:09:26Z aeth: I think Bike's alternative approach would be to define methods that swank uses that are ultimately used by the SLIME inspector, i.e. create new things that swank will dispatch on as various relevant defmethods
2017-12-16T05:09:41Z nyef`: aeth: Or you could "just" declare for SBCL and unportability and implement an INSPECTED-PARTS method.
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2017-12-16T05:10:54Z Bike: i mean, with the whole novel clos thing you're still relying on the inspector working in some particular way with slots
2017-12-16T05:11:21Z aeth: Would that work, though? I want to inspect one particular ID stored in a large data structure. A simpler example would be e.g. inspecting one node in a tree by providing the tree and what to look up into the tree.
2017-12-16T05:11:57Z Bike: just write your own inspector then, cl's only takes one object
2017-12-16T05:13:11Z aeth: But since it's only used for debugging it doesn't need to be efficient. I could just allocate an object from a query and then inspect that. Although then if I'm inspecting it live I'd have to do some trick to avoid filling the heap.
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2017-12-16T05:15:08Z aeth: Bike: Hmmm... Or... I could be really lazy and make an object that encapsulates two objects...
2017-12-16T05:15:46Z Bike: so that you can take advantage of all the standard customization facilities that arne't real, makes sense to me
2017-12-16T05:15:48Z aeth: i.e. two slots, the data structure and the ID
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2017-12-16T05:16:24Z aeth: Bike: however non-standard things are, my own solution would be even more non-standard and even less supported
2017-12-16T05:17:16Z Bike: well, my main advice is to try something out rather than write a dissertation over the course of two hours, i'd do well to remember that
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2017-12-16T05:24:10Z dmiles: aeth: well i am glad that I was correct in imagining that you were copying a reference setf-able place
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2017-12-16T05:29:36Z aeth: dmiles: Well, I'm making local bindings to arrays (which does not copy the arrays themselves), and then using symbol-macrolet over accessors that are too complicated for with-accessors (such as aref or my custom array-row accessors)
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2017-12-16T05:31:40Z dmiles: you know for these synthesized objects you are thinking about there is a system for synchronising them.. https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives
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2017-12-16T05:32:37Z dmiles: you point the object at your proxy and your real thing.. when your proxy changes.. so does the real thing
2017-12-16T05:33:03Z earl-ducaine: Out of fairness to other CLs and the libraries in the Quicklisp repo, the problem that I described as 'dependancy hell' (for ccl) was only that I was using the wrong CLX library.  Once I installed a compatible one using ASDF everything else worked.
2017-12-16T05:33:04Z dmiles: (the object= the locative)
2017-12-16T05:33:31Z aeth: that looks like that solves a similar problem
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2017-12-16T05:34:01Z aeth: my model is with-accessors, though.
2017-12-16T05:34:28Z aeth: with accessors is the thing that can turn (foo some-object) into foo, so you can (setf foo 42) and it's really (setf (foo some-object) 42)
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2017-12-16T05:36:10Z dmiles: hrrm the package i was thinking of was actually was more in depth.. pjb suggested it to me the other week)
2017-12-16T05:36:47Z aeth: I took the recommended way of implementing with-accessors and modified it to work on (aref a 42) (aref a 42 0) and my custom array row accessors
2017-12-16T05:37:10Z dmiles: of course would still only been  10% of what you would write
2017-12-16T05:38:00Z dmiles: and doing a proxy with-accessors makes good sense instated
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2017-12-16T06:10:05Z aeth: dmiles: proxy with-accessors? as in an object that can call with-accessors (or, actually, with-entity-accessors in this case) on itself every second or something, to keep a somewhat up to date picture of what's going on? Could become a threading mess, though.
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2017-12-16T06:43:52Z dmiles: aeth: though it would update every second :P
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2017-12-16T14:22:57Z ebzzry: I’m trying to automate the installation of Quicklisp
2017-12-16T14:23:04Z ebzzry: I have `sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp --eval '(progn (quicklisp-quickstart:install) (let ((ql-util::*do-not-prompt* t)) (ql:add-to-init-file) (sb-ext:quit))'` but it doesn’t wokr.
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2017-12-16T14:32:05Z scymtym: ebzzry: try sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp --eval '(quicklisp-quickstart:install)' --eval '(let …)' --quit
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2017-12-16T15:01:03Z ebzzry: scymtym: thanks!
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2017-12-16T16:55:37Z Fade: roswell also gives a reasonable installation
2017-12-16T16:55:45Z Fade: I use it with travis to test my stuff.
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2017-12-16T17:34:17Z Xach:  so many picodollars
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2017-12-16T17:45:23Z loke: Hello xach
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2017-12-16T18:38:07Z fourier`: does anyone know if the Prime Time Freeware for AI software collection is available anywhere?
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2017-12-16T18:47:52Z rme: Wasn't PTF for AI just a subset of the CMU AI repository?
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2017-12-16T18:53:03Z fourier`: yep.
2017-12-16T18:53:34Z fourier`: I didn't know it exist.
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2017-12-16T19:20:13Z akkad: when jni to sbcl is faster and less expensive than using abcl...
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2017-12-16T19:46:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispwork's java foreign language interface is pretty nice too
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2017-12-16T19:49:51Z beach strongly recommends that people program in Common Lisp rather than in some other language. 
2017-12-16T19:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I agree generally, but sometimes one has to interoperate with libraries/systems that are impractical to duplicate
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2017-12-16T19:51:16Z beach also thinks that a way-too-high fraction of the utterances in this channel are about languages other than Common Lisp.
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2017-12-16T19:52:39Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I think there is way too much activity aimed at satisfying individual needs for immediate solutions, rather than implementing Common Lisp equivalents for the common good of everyone.
2017-12-16T19:53:51Z jackdaniel: interoperability between Common Lisp and other languages fits the channel topic, doesn't it?
2017-12-16T19:54:01Z beach: Sure.
2017-12-16T19:54:41Z fourier`: beach: cl is dead without interoperability
2017-12-16T19:55:07Z beach: fourier`: That's very harsh.
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2017-12-16T19:56:12Z fourier`: its fun since just today I've read an article by Richard C. Waters "The Survival of Lisp: Either We Share, Or It Dies" dated 1994 where he stated about C taking ground and importance of interoperability with it :)
2017-12-16T19:56:19Z beach: I just think it is sad that so many people just seem to want to further their personal goals when there is so much work to do for the common good.  It would be way much more productive to target common goals first.
2017-12-16T19:58:04Z akkad: that which is common, is of little value. -nietzsche
2017-12-16T19:58:14Z mejja: ;-)
2017-12-16T19:58:56Z beach: fourier`: I think Common Lisp is doing very well now, compared to a few years ago.  But more work is needed.  That's why I am sad that so much energy is spent on other things.
2017-12-16T20:00:08Z fourier`: interoperability is not other thing, is one of the key things to survive. CL community is too small to implement everything on its own, therefore interoperability with languages with bigger ecosystem is crucial for any projects to take off.
2017-12-16T20:00:39Z akkad: sounds like the mission statement of Islisp
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2017-12-16T20:01:35Z fourier`: nah major CLs are good with it now - abcl with java, others with C, LW with both C and Java (and obj-c on osx), ccl with c and obj-c, so we are quite good now ;)
2017-12-16T20:01:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: The other thing is that, if you want convince people to adopt common lisp, you have to provide them with a low-cost way to integrate their lisp code base with their existing software
2017-12-16T20:02:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: fourier`: there's also jfli which, I think, provides portable cl<->jvm interop
2017-12-16T20:02:13Z beach: fourier`: Indeed.  I think that's what I just said.  Most people spend most of their energy on things other than Common Lisp.
2017-12-16T20:02:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, it runs on both LispWorks and CCL
2017-12-16T20:02:40Z jackdaniel: diverse tactics to advance CL sound like a good strategy, I don't think any particular tactic could win on its own
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2017-12-16T20:03:01Z akkad: beach is right. we need to force these other implementations to divert their time and energies to sbcl. the one true lisp :P
2017-12-16T20:03:27Z rme: I'm not ready to give up on CCL just yet.
2017-12-16T20:04:04Z fourier`: i barely use sbcl (only test with compatibility with it), and mainly use LW and CCL which both are real good
2017-12-16T20:04:09Z jackdaniel: testing software on 3 or 4 implementations definetely improves software quality
2017-12-16T20:04:25Z akkad: fouric: you make anything cool with lw yet?
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2017-12-16T20:04:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I bought a lispworks hobbyistdv license just because CAPI is so nice
2017-12-16T20:05:06Z fourier`: akkad: maybe you mean me ? :)
2017-12-16T20:05:20Z akkad: yeah fournier`
2017-12-16T20:05:29Z fourier`: i did this small tool i'm using on a vacation-per-vacation basis https://github.com/fourier/mediaimport
2017-12-16T20:05:34Z akkad: irc is hard
2017-12-16T20:06:11Z fourier`: but generally all other cl development I do in LW since IDE is so nice (but editor is so terrible so quite often I revert to emacs)
2017-12-16T20:06:48Z fouric tried to use lw through the student license but couldn't actually get the dang thing to *run*
2017-12-16T20:06:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: fourier`: have you noticed that slime is a bit slow to respond when connecting to lispworks?
2017-12-16T20:07:07Z fourier`: no i dont use slime with lw, only with sbcl and ccl
2017-12-16T20:07:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I build a console image, it works fine, but if I connect to swank running in the ide, it takes a while to respond
2017-12-16T20:07:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's really hard to give up emacs for lisp development :)
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2017-12-16T20:09:33Z akkad: fourier`: ahh 7.0
2017-12-16T20:10:45Z Xach: lispworks's editor is in the emacs family tree
2017-12-16T20:11:09Z oleo: lispworks editor seems like a more advanced mcclim
2017-12-16T20:11:13Z oleo: lol
2017-12-16T20:11:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but it doesn't have evil-mode :)
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2017-12-16T20:11:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I haven't been able to find something to replace paredit
2017-12-16T20:11:37Z akkad uses slime on lw, no real delay locally
2017-12-16T20:12:08Z akkad: evil-mode is like convincing your new gf, that she should let you call her by your ex-wife's name.
2017-12-16T20:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like telling people that the best vi implementation is written in emacs lisp ;)
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2017-12-16T20:14:15Z akkad: fiddlerwoaroof: the 32bit version of lw is sure a bit slower starting up for me than 64bit was
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2017-12-16T20:16:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: my issue is that when I try to use completion, it takes a significant amount of time for the completion list to appear
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2017-12-16T20:19:08Z akkad: is there a good multithreaded cl benchmark? lparallel-bench seems close, but not quite
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2017-12-16T20:24:13Z fouric: fiddlerwoaroof: have you tried smartparens, out of curiosity?
2017-12-16T20:24:26Z fouric: has *anyone*?
2017-12-16T20:25:06Z fouric: (it's still an emacs-only script, but it ships as the spacemacs default for some reason, and i'm trying to figure out why)
2017-12-16T20:25:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I may have a while ago
2017-12-16T20:26:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it didn't behave like I expected it to, so I switched back to paredit, with some custom keybindings for evil-mode
2017-12-16T20:27:55Z fouric: hm, k
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2017-12-16T20:31:59Z Murii: Can I use dotimes for going from the N element to 0 ?
2017-12-16T20:33:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (dotimes (x n) (let ((x (- n x)
2017-12-16T20:33:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like that might work...
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2017-12-16T20:34:37Z aeth: paredit itself doesn't behave how I expect it to. Its author has something against using # or something. I have to (setq paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates '((lambda (endp delimiter) nil))) so it won't break dispatch reader macros, e.g. #foo() becomes #foo () without it. In fact, I think there's a hardcoded workaround for #() and all other #...() will insert a space before the parens in a very non-idiomatic way.
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2017-12-16T20:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's one of my annoyances with it
2017-12-16T20:35:16Z aeth: e.g. If someone writes #h(...) they're probably using a reader macro literal notation (in this case, probably for hash tables)
2017-12-16T20:35:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The other is that it treats backticks weirdly
2017-12-16T20:36:22Z aeth: iirc, it treats ` as if it's quoted source and ' as if it's quoted data. So if I do macroexpand or macroexpand-1, I actually use ` even though I'm not unquoting, so it's properly indented as quoted source
2017-12-16T20:36:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: if I have `(1 2 3) and I hit paredit-wrap-sexp, it puts the new parens around the backquote, when I'd prefer it to go inside the backquote
2017-12-16T20:36:55Z aeth: oh no wait, that probably wouldn't be paredit, sorry
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2017-12-16T20:37:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, usually, I'm trying to change the quasi-quoted data rather than the macro
2017-12-16T20:37:36Z aeth: I've never encountered that
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2017-12-16T20:38:00Z aeth: can you provide an example?
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2017-12-16T20:42:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://asciinema.org/a/suFZZKTzdLopCnwWQgnTszYw6
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2017-12-16T20:42:58Z rme: Murii: I'd say forget dotimes in the counting down case.  Even if you're a loop hater, (loop for n from 5 downto 0 do (print n)) is pretty clear.
2017-12-16T20:44:09Z Murii: rme: thanks, what's the difference between '+' an 'incf' ?
2017-12-16T20:44:11Z Murii: and*
2017-12-16T20:44:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: incf updates the value of a place, + just adds two numbers
2017-12-16T20:44:41Z Murii: ok
2017-12-16T20:44:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: in other languages, incf would be the += operator
2017-12-16T20:44:45Z Murii: thought so too
2017-12-16T20:45:48Z rme: (setq a (+ a 1)) is just like (incf a).  (setq a (+ a 5)) is just like (incf a 5).
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2017-12-16T21:00:04Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I see
2017-12-16T21:00:44Z whoman: i wonder what 'f' is historically, in setf and incf et al
2017-12-16T21:01:42Z aeth: rme: If you're a loop hater there's always (do ((n 5 (1- n))) ((> 0 n)) (print n))
2017-12-16T21:02:44Z jackdaniel: whoman: set field
2017-12-16T21:03:04Z jackdaniel: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/869529/difference-between-set-setq-and-setf-in-common-lisp ← this talks about history
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2017-12-16T21:17:59Z malice: Hi! Is there some way to *enforce* the type of certain slot, other than adding before/around methods for initialize-instance/setters/etc. ? :type specifier doesn't force implementation to check for the type...
2017-12-16T21:18:44Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/lichat-protocol/blob/master/typed-slot-class.lisp
2017-12-16T21:21:01Z malice: Thanks for the code, Shinmera.
2017-12-16T21:22:04Z malice: I'll take a look at it, thanks!
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2017-12-16T21:47:27Z aeth: My approach is different. When I want to force the type (which still isn't entirely portable), I use structs, which tend to be better at doing that. When I want to force the types and still use standard-objects, I usually can get away with embedding a struct as a slot in a standard-object. Depending on what you're doing, that might be better or worse.
2017-12-16T21:47:58Z aeth: iirc, type-checking is done in CCL for CLOS standard-objects iirc. So it can be used, it's just not standard to check.
2017-12-16T21:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I think you could use the mop to define your own semantics for slot-types, though
2017-12-16T21:49:08Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: that is Shinmera's linked approach afaik
2017-12-16T21:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2017-12-16T21:49:41Z aeth: But if the struct approach is good enough (i.e. the typed thing can easily be thought of as a sub-object) then that saves having to mess with the MOP
2017-12-16T21:49:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to think of structs as deprecated :)
2017-12-16T21:50:24Z aeth: I tend to think of struct objects as static objects and CLOS standard-objects as dynamic objects.
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2017-12-16T21:52:33Z aeth: So structs are good for storing well-defined data that's mostly numbers that's sent to some C library over CFFI (e.g. various OpenGL things) or for a hot loop of things of well-defined and hopefully-optimized types.
2017-12-16T21:53:34Z aeth: And then there's a second, basically different (e.g. if you want the type, you have to deftype the array manually), struct that's used to define convenience accessors on top of a sequence. CL's complicated like that.
2017-12-16T21:55:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I use those occasionally, if I'm using vectors with certain semantics
2017-12-16T21:55:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defstruct (point :type vector) x y)
2017-12-16T21:55:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: etc.
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2017-12-16T22:23:32Z whoman: jackdaniel, ah cool, thanks! going to read thta
2017-12-16T22:23:44Z whoman: (i had thought 'feature' briefly)
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2017-12-16T23:02:29Z malice: Shinmera: in your typed-slot-class, does simply providing :type for slot work?
2017-12-16T23:03:05Z malice: I'm trying to get it to work by copying typed-slot-class and conditions, but my instance raises incompatible type due to the type being NIL, even though I supplied a type.
2017-12-16T23:03:15Z malice: (or so I think)
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2017-12-16T23:03:22Z Shinmera: Just look at the files my dude. https://github.com/Shirakumo/lichat-protocol/blob/master/protocol.lisp#L158
2017-12-16T23:03:38Z malice: Thanks, didn't find that in other files I looked at :p
2017-12-16T23:04:06Z Shinmera: It doesn't use :type to avoid clashing with whatever the implementation does with :type
2017-12-16T23:04:16Z malice: I see.
2017-12-16T23:04:35Z malice: Thanks for help :)
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2017-12-16T23:46:58Z malice: aeth: thanks for your insight
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2017-12-16T23:52:20Z malice: Is there fdefinition for local functions?
2017-12-16T23:52:31Z Shinmera: clhs fdefinition
2017-12-16T23:52:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
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2017-12-16T23:53:15Z Shinmera: clhs flet
2017-12-16T23:53:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2017-12-16T23:54:03Z Shinmera: By nature of the flets being lexical, and thus compile-time, there is no fdefinition to retrieve it at run-time.
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2017-12-16T23:54:35Z Shinmera: You can just use #'foo to get the function object if you know the name at compile-time, though.
2017-12-16T23:54:55Z Shinmera: clhs function
2017-12-16T23:54:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
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2017-12-17T00:00:10Z malice: I was wondering whether you could do something like (flet <definition of function X> (setf (<value of local function> X) <other function>)), but you can't.
2017-12-17T00:00:15Z malice: Am I right?
2017-12-17T00:00:29Z malice: (there's no practical solution or hacking in mind here)
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2017-12-17T00:05:19Z pjb: malice: (flet ((f () 1))  (flet ((f () 2))  (f))) #| --> 2 |#
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2017-12-17T00:06:07Z pjb: malice: (let ((f (lambda () 1))) (flet ((f () (funcall f)))  (list (f) (setf f (lambda () 2)) (f)))) #| --> (1 #<Anonymous Function #x302006D189BF> 2) |#
2017-12-17T00:06:40Z malice: Riiiiight. I was thinking of setf though. Someone asked about defun = setf fdefinition, and I was thinking of ways of rebinding local functions
2017-12-17T00:06:54Z malice: though your example is nice, pjb :)
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2017-12-17T00:15:01Z aeth: Imo, if you don't actually need the features flet offers, consider defining separate functions just for debugging and clarity. e.g. (defun %foo (x y z) "something-internal") or even (declaim (inline %foo)) (defun %foo (x y z) "something-internal")
2017-12-17T00:15:25Z aeth: Pretty much every time I've started with a flet, I wound up later refactoring it out of the function for clarity.
2017-12-17T00:16:01Z aeth: %foo is usually local enough. If people use it, it's their fault, the % is warning them not to use it.
2017-12-17T00:16:56Z malice: not exporting might also be a hint.
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2017-12-17T01:09:03Z Xach: aeth: that rarely happens to me, but i often convert them to labels
2017-12-17T01:09:22Z Xach: i mainly stop with flet when there's only one local function. but even then sometimes it gets recursive and needs a labels.
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2017-12-17T01:43:04Z dmiles: can someone share with me a test case that is an example where alpha renaming is required to make something work?
2017-12-17T01:46:25Z dmiles: often times i notice macros will use a gentemp to avoid problems when used recursively.. i've assumed that was to avoid some renaming that work automatically happen
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2017-12-17T01:47:42Z dmiles: to avoid some renaming that may otherwise not happen automatically
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2017-12-17T01:57:17Z resttime: Any resource/tutorial out there for working with the bytes/bits for numbers like C? I dunno a good way of getting two bytes high/low and combining them to make a signed 16bit integer (short) and vice versa.
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2017-12-17T01:57:45Z resttime: I can think of an explicit solution jsut by reading bits but I'm wondering if there's something more 'built-in'
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2017-12-17T01:58:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: resttime: pcl has a couple chapters on making a binary format parser
2017-12-17T01:59:01Z Zhivago: See LDB?
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2017-12-17T01:59:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: also, this ^
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2017-12-17T02:08:01Z resttime: That works, I can (ldb (byte 15 0) (logior (ash #xFF 8) #x01)) then read the MSB to for the sign
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2017-12-17T02:09:26Z resttime: Is there anything like (coerce combined-bytes '(signed-integer 16)) that exists?
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2017-12-17T02:30:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: resttime: you can do something like (setf (ldb ...) ...)
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2017-12-17T02:46:37Z resttime: fiddlerwoaroof: To replace the ASH and LOGIOR?
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2017-12-17T02:48:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so: if the destination is all zeroes, you can just use #'(setf ldb) to set the appropriate bytes
2017-12-17T02:48:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/bytes/bits/
2017-12-17T02:49:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't really do all that much bit-twiddling in CL
2017-12-17T02:49:19Z resttime: Neither do I :)
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2017-12-17T02:49:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: What are you trying to do?
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2017-12-17T02:51:11Z resttime: Reading in a short integer from a serial device that sends a low byte and high byte
2017-12-17T02:52:19Z resttime: I basically get a byte array so I need to combine the bytes
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2017-12-17T02:57:01Z Zhivago: You could use a bit vector/
2017-12-17T02:57:44Z Zhivago: But it's probably simplest to assemble an integer from the bytes arithmetically and use ldb.
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2017-12-17T03:01:45Z resttime: Sweet, found a function DPB: (dpb (aref byte-vector 0) (byte 8 8) (aref byte-vector 1))
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2017-12-17T03:03:23Z resttime: Then multiply the result (ldb (byte 15 0) combined-bytes) based on the MSB (ldb (byte 1 15) combined-bytes)
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2017-12-17T03:04:52Z resttime: So far this seems to be the best solution, I still wonder though if there's something like (coerce combined-bytes '(signed-integer 16))
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2017-12-17T03:25:39Z binary_: Hey all, this might be a stupid question but does anyone know why learnlispthehardway.org is down?
2017-12-17T03:26:59Z nyef``: resttime: Not easily-and-portably. I typically end up with something like (defun sign-extend (value width) (if (logbitp (1- width) value) (logior (ash -1 width) value) value)).
2017-12-17T03:27:48Z nyef``: resttime: If you're working with machine-native types, you might be able to do something clever with an FFI system.
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2017-12-17T03:32:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: binary_: I've never heard of it before, but it looks like you can find it on github
2017-12-17T03:32:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/LispTO/llthw
2017-12-17T03:32:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, practical common lisp is a good way to learn lisp
2017-12-17T03:33:37Z binary_: I've been using the github, it's just that the hyperlinks are ill-adapted for markdown (read-- it would take a hell of a regex to make them work). I'll check out Practical Common Lisp, thank you!
2017-12-17T03:34:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: tell binary_ about practical common lisp
2017-12-17T03:34:07Z minion: binary_: look at practical common lisp: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-12-17T03:50:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-17T03:53:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach
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2017-12-17T04:04:43Z Fare: Looks like cl-json is also ripe for forking. Sigh.
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2017-12-17T04:06:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fare: yason is pretty good too
2017-12-17T04:07:04Z aeth: There is a correct, lossless default mapping, i.e. going cl <-> json losslessly. Afaik, none of the major libraries do that by default.
2017-12-17T04:07:19Z aeth: This channel was discussing that a couple of days ago
2017-12-17T04:08:51Z nyef``: I've been using st-json. How did that one stack up?
2017-12-17T04:08:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Generally, I don't think that matters
2017-12-17T04:09:01Z aeth: iirc the correct methodology for losslessness is: null <-> :null; false <-> nil; [] <-> #(); {} <-> (make-hash-table)
2017-12-17T04:09:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: If [] <-> #() you can use nil for null
2017-12-17T04:09:37Z aeth: cl-json's default is particularly bad because it doesn't have a :null so it goes null <-> nil and false -> nil
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2017-12-17T04:09:47Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: In Scheme, yes
2017-12-17T04:10:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather booleans turn to keywords
2017-12-17T04:10:25Z aeth: You want to disambiguate between null-as-nil (not very common in CL) and null-as-false (extremely common in CL)
2017-12-17T04:10:25Z nyef``: Hrm. IIRC, st-json uses :false for false and nil for [].
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2017-12-17T04:10:52Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: In cl-scheme, yes, I turn #f into :false, but that's because Scheme has lists, so CL's nil is becoming '() so I can use the built-in list data structure
2017-12-17T04:11:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: to mee (emptyp (parse "null")) should be true
2017-12-17T04:11:07Z aeth: But mapping null, as in the nonsense thing that breaks type symbols, into nil is not a good idea imo
2017-12-17T04:11:09Z nyef``: I like :null as null because I can pass that from JSON straight to the database and back if necessary.
2017-12-17T04:11:18Z aeth: s/breaks type symbols/breaks type systems/
2017-12-17T04:11:39Z aeth: "null" is literally just "the thing that breaks type systems" and there is no direct equivalent in CL, where nil, even when used in a sort of nullish way, is false.
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2017-12-17T04:14:16Z aeth: The only time CL's nil behave sort of like a null is when working with lists because (listp nil) is true. Otherwise, you're only going to get nil as null if you define it as such, e.g. the type definition (or null simple-vector)
2017-12-17T04:14:27Z aeth: And you're probably going to ruin some optimizations by doing so.
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2017-12-17T04:14:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I try not to use null in my json anyways
2017-12-17T04:15:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Generally [] or {} is more meaningful
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2017-12-17T04:16:44Z aeth: an alternative way of dealing with {} is tagged plists.
2017-12-17T04:16:53Z nyef``: Ah, the other thing that I find important is to know when there ISN'T a field by a particular name in a {}.
2017-12-17T04:16:54Z aeth: In fact, it would work with [] as well
2017-12-17T04:17:16Z aeth: an empty tagged plist or tagged list would still not be nil because the cdr would be nil and the car would be the tag
2017-12-17T04:17:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: [] -> vectors and {} -> hash tables seems fine to me
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2017-12-17T04:17:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially in the latter case, where you're probably going to be looking things up by keys
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2017-12-17T04:18:35Z aeth: (:json-list 1 2 3) -> [1, 2, 3] and (:json-object :foo 42 :bar 7) -> {"foo" : 42, "bar" : 7} seems decently sensible, especially if by default it's a one-way mapping and the vector/hash-table thing is the default. I don't think that would cause issues.
2017-12-17T04:19:26Z aeth: Well, besides going from symbol to string, but you get that with hash-tables, too. Treating it in a case insensitive way (i.e. upcase to symbol and downcase to string) would usually work unless you're processing arbitrary JSON from the outside world, which could be an overridable flag.
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2017-12-17T04:20:37Z aeth: Because then an empty list is (:json-list) so the JSON knows to turn nil into false
2017-12-17T04:23:13Z aeth: (And JSON knows which one is a plist and which one is a list)
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2017-12-17T04:34:28Z Fare: fiddlerwoaroof, I just meant that cl-json's maintainer seems to have dropped the ball, so forking is required.
2017-12-17T04:34:57Z Fare: A lot of CL projects seem to be unmaintained.
2017-12-17T04:35:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-12-17T04:35:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, minimally maintained
2017-12-17T04:36:11Z Fare: When simple github PRs that unbreak the build go unanswered after many months, it's time to fork.
2017-12-17T04:36:22Z Fare: but hey, what do I know.
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2017-12-17T04:38:44Z Fare: If I were still actively developing CL code, I'd join sharplispers and fork a lot of stuff...
2017-12-17T04:38:59Z Fare: https://github.com/sharplispers
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2017-12-17T04:47:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: is it conforming to have a while block after a do block in a loop?
2017-12-17T04:47:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. (loop do ... while ...)
2017-12-17T04:48:46Z beach: clhs loop
2017-12-17T04:48:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2017-12-17T04:50:12Z beach: Yes, they are both main clauses.
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2017-12-17T04:58:42Z jackdaniel: Fare: why didn't you fork a lot of stuff when you did actively develop CL code then?
2017-12-17T04:58:46Z jackdaniel: good morning o/
2017-12-17T04:58:55Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2017-12-17T05:01:59Z pjb: (loop do … until … do … while … do … until … do … while … do …)
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2017-12-17T05:02:32Z Fare: jackdaniel, I did fork, take over or helped maintain a few: ASDF, POIU, ASDF-DEPENDENCY-GROVEL, CL-CONTAINERS, CL-PROTOBUFS, LAMBDA-READER -- in addition to those I started.
2017-12-17T05:02:42Z jackdaniel: another thing is that if they work fine and changes to buildsystem make them break, then is it really problem with support or maybe rather ecosystem stability?
2017-12-17T05:02:45Z Fare: And I sent my share of PRs to other projects.
2017-12-17T05:03:42Z Fare: what if they didn't work that fine, but the bugs they had weren't as visible when the build system itself had its own bugs that are now fixed?
2017-12-17T05:03:57Z Fare: All code bitrots, and needs to be maintained.
2017-12-17T05:05:00Z Fare: When I fixed F2CL to work with ASDF 3.3, the code I had to replace was not just bad design that violates the ASDF interfaces, it also had a lot of bugs in corner cases.
2017-12-17T05:05:43Z Fare: the old code that happened to work in the conditions that the original author tried them isn't sacred, and its bugs don't deserve to live forever.
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2017-12-17T05:07:10Z aeth: Does asdf have any support for files that compile to .lisp files?
2017-12-17T05:07:12Z Fare: jackdaniel, another reason I didn't fork as much back in the days was because there were all these other hackers who hadn't quit yet, like I'm doing.
2017-12-17T05:07:12Z jackdaniel: I agree that software has bugs. I disagree with implicit equalizing bugs with buildsystem problems. but what do I know? I need to go and fix bugs in software I maintain before sunset
2017-12-17T05:07:39Z Fare: aeth, yes, see f2cl for instance, or cffi-grovel
2017-12-17T05:07:43Z pjb: As long as you have specifications to sort the bugs from the features…
2017-12-17T05:08:40Z Fare: jackdaniel, going into another project's undocumented internals and expecting it to keep working forever... it's a bug.
2017-12-17T05:09:03Z Fare: pjb: there is a specification, indeed --- the documentation.
2017-12-17T05:09:35Z Fare: ... and even the specification sometimes evolves, to account for previously unforeseen circumstances.
2017-12-17T05:09:39Z nyef``: The traditional stability guarantee for anything using internals of another project, documented or not, is "if it breaks you get to keep both pieces."
2017-12-17T05:10:22Z Fare: ASDF has its share of poking at other project internals, BTW, so will need maintenance when these internals change.
2017-12-17T05:11:02Z aeth: Fare: ah, so you define a custom (:foo-file ...) that goes in :components, like grovel's :cffi-grovel-file and :cffi-wrapper-file here? https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Groveller-ASDF-Integration.html#Groveller-ASDF-Integration
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2017-12-17T05:11:30Z Fare: aeth: yes, and you define new operations to work with it.
2017-12-17T05:12:31Z Fare: you'll need a new operation that compile-op and load-source-op depend on, that creates the .lisp file.
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2017-12-17T05:13:49Z Fare: I saw some horrors that made sense when written for unmaintained 2006 ASDF 1, but don't make sense at all for 2017 ASDF 3.3. Is it a bug to fix them? I say no.
2017-12-17T05:14:52Z Fare: I mean, when ASDF 3 breaks them, 2006 kluges are bugs that need to be fixed, not enshrined with more kluges on the ASDF side.
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2017-12-17T05:57:28Z aeth: Wow, the roswell update process is messy. I basically had to delete both the installed directory and .roswell to get it to run without either segfaulting the C part or erroring in the CL part (which, interestingly, both did and didn't drop me into the debugger depending on how and when it errored in the process)
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2017-12-17T05:59:09Z aeth: but I guess roswell is the way to go to quickly test a library on as many implementations as possible with "ros use foo; ros emacs &"
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2017-12-17T10:00:39Z fourier: anyone uses series package ?
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2017-12-17T10:02:39Z fourier: i did some simple tests against hand-written loops and purely functional approach to the same problems (like sum of squares of a list of numbers) and was surprised what the code generated by series is as performant as hand-written loops and at least twice more performant than pure functional approach with reduce/map
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2017-12-17T10:04:27Z Fare: I have friends who use iterate
2017-12-17T10:04:56Z Fare: I suppose series can do a lot of simplifications and optimizations
2017-12-17T10:05:47Z Fare: whereas naive map/reduce sees its arguments as opaque and must do a lot of "administration" at runtime
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2017-12-17T10:07:32Z fourier: series basically generates loops with (go) out of composition of expressions. cool what it is generate as performant code as hand-written loop while still using functional approach.
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2017-12-17T10:09:48Z fourier: yep functional approach lead to creating intermediate lists after applying remove-if/subseq etc, which definitely hits the performance
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2017-12-17T10:15:01Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I just released version 0.06 of nEXT Browser https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/7kd3xu/next_browser_version_006/
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2017-12-17T10:15:29Z jmercouris: If you like my project, please consider leaving a star, I'll be working on the GTK port in earnst for the next release, so any help in this domain would be greatly appreciated!
2017-12-17T10:16:17Z jmercouris: Thank you for your time
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2017-12-17T10:21:29Z jmercouris: I also would be extremely interested if any users have any feedback, please feel free to contact me via any medium
2017-12-17T10:21:54Z jmercouris: unless it's something like smoke signals, in which case I cannot guarantee reception
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2017-12-17T10:23:17Z beach: Where is the repository?
2017-12-17T10:24:55Z jmercouris: beach: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT
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2017-12-17T10:25:31Z beach: Thanks.
2017-12-17T10:25:41Z jmercouris: np!
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2017-12-17T10:27:57Z beach: I see some code duplication between history-add and history-typed-add.  You might want to create a common abstraction for those.
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2017-12-17T10:28:48Z beach: In fact, (sqlite:connect (truename (probe-file ...))) is repeated several times.
2017-12-17T10:29:08Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, there's some macro that allows you to use the database, but I couldn't figure it out how to work
2017-12-17T10:29:29Z beach: A lot of duplication, in fact.
2017-12-17T10:29:33Z jmercouris: so you can normally do something like (with database ...) and it'll be like a context thing
2017-12-17T10:29:39Z beach: Just create a function already.
2017-12-17T10:30:04Z jmercouris: Maybe, I would like to figure out the proper way actually, the way the lib wants you to do it
2017-12-17T10:30:09Z beach: (defun bla (name) (sqlite:connect (truename (probe-file name))))
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2017-12-17T10:30:30Z beach: Except that you need a better name than BLA.
2017-12-17T10:30:34Z jmercouris: I have to go cook breakfast now, but I'll be back/read anything, thank you for the suggestions thus far
2017-12-17T10:30:44Z jmercouris: It is something I will have to add for release 0.08!
2017-12-17T10:30:49Z jmercouris: Lot of code cleanup
2017-12-17T10:32:59Z jmercouris: beach: One other thing, I wanted to make a (with-new-buffer) macro, but I couldn't think of a good way to do it
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2017-12-17T10:33:08Z beach: What is match-count?
2017-12-17T10:33:12Z jmercouris: a lot of my functions involve acting on the current buffer, and then there is a derivative acting on anew buffer
2017-12-17T10:33:18Z beach: If it is a special variable, it should have earmuffs.
2017-12-17T10:33:20Z jmercouris: match-count is the amount of times a term appears on a page
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2017-12-17T10:33:45Z jmercouris: beach: It is in parenscript, so I'm very hesitant to write earmuffs, not sure if they are supported in JS, but I try
2017-12-17T10:33:48Z beach: Yes, I am not reading the code in order to understand what it does.  Just doing superficial stuff.
2017-12-17T10:34:07Z jmercouris: beach: Fair enough, that is also still very useful to me, I miss a lot of things as you can see :D
2017-12-17T10:34:15Z jmercouris: I get so used to reading my own code, I don't even realize what is wrong
2017-12-17T10:34:47Z Zhivago: Looks like parenscript claims to support special variables in the documentation.
2017-12-17T10:35:58Z beach: (node-children (active-history-node (mode ...))) is also duplicated many times.
2017-12-17T10:36:39Z beach: CHILDREN is a list that might be empty, right?
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2017-12-17T10:37:37Z beach: If so, don't write (WHEN CHILDREN ...) because WHEN suggests that it is a Boolean value.  I would write (UNLESS (NULL CHILDREN) ...) instead, as Norvig and Pitman suggest.
2017-12-17T10:38:21Z beach: And you need to work on your LOOP indentation.  I suggest you use SLIME-INDENTATION to get it right.
2017-12-17T10:39:23Z beach: Furthermore, you have inconsistent LOOP formatting.  Sometimes you have DO at the end of a line, and sometimes at the beginning.  It is best to put it at the beginning of the line that starts the clause.
2017-12-17T10:42:06Z Zhivago: Although to be honest, if you want to talk about a list being empty, I'd write (when (empty children) ...) -- null is quite semantically overloaded, too.
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2017-12-17T10:44:57Z fourier: whats wrong with (when children ..) ? any examples how it could fail
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2017-12-17T10:46:08Z |3b|: fourier: same meaning to lisp implementation, but might be interpreted differently by human readers
2017-12-17T10:46:42Z |3b| personally finds (when x ...) easier to parse than (unless (whatever x) ...) though
2017-12-17T10:46:53Z fourier: same
2017-12-17T10:47:45Z fourier: also lisp-critic will suggest changing that (unless (null ..) ..) to (when ..)
2017-12-17T10:48:05Z Zhivago: fourier: You can think of it (when children ...) being an implied (when (true children) ...).
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2017-12-17T10:48:52Z Zhivago: Personally I think if you're happy with overloading null, then you might as well be happy with overloading it in the opposite direction.
2017-12-17T10:49:06Z fourier: its a common pattern in c as well, so nothing bad here (I guess)
2017-12-17T10:49:12Z Zhivago: But the half-arsed position of doing one but not the other is just silly.
2017-12-17T10:50:26Z |3b|: yeah, i think UNLESS EMPTY is better than UNLESS NULL for me, but still worse than just WHEN
2017-12-17T10:50:41Z Zhivago: In C, I'd certainly prefer to see if (empty_list(list)) than if (list).
2017-12-17T10:50:49Z |3b| probably wouldn't tell people to change any of them though, since that's just 'for me' :)
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2017-12-17T10:51:46Z beach: fourier: It has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the intention as communicated to the reader of the code.
2017-12-17T10:51:53Z |3b|: empty_list(list) in C would suggest a non-null object with no contents to me
2017-12-17T10:52:32Z Zhivago: It might -- but more importantly it abstracts the representation away.
2017-12-17T10:52:54Z Zhivago: And since C has no common list structure this is more important to communicate perhaps than in CL.
2017-12-17T10:53:07Z |3b|: true, if you aren't treating it as aa pointer in general it doesn't matter
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2017-12-17T10:58:19Z beach: Zhivago: Right, it would be better to write (UNLESS (ENDP ...) ...)
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2017-12-17T11:01:28Z borodust: hello #lisp
2017-12-17T11:01:44Z beach: Hello borodust.
2017-12-17T11:02:22Z borodust: indentation in emacs CL (via slime) buffer is often breaks for me if there are docstrings present
2017-12-17T11:02:35Z fourier: i got a feeling what it mostly relevant for string variables,, which could either be null or "". I use alexandria:emptyp for this case then (unless (emptyp arg)..)
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2017-12-17T11:02:48Z beach: borodust: Are you using SLIME-INDENTATION?
2017-12-17T11:02:48Z borodust: did anyone else experience that?
2017-12-17T11:03:06Z borodust: as in emacs package?
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2017-12-17T11:03:19Z beach: borodust: As in a SLIME contribution, yes.
2017-12-17T11:03:48Z borodust: hmm, i'm using 'slime-fancy that includes a bunch of stuff (mb indent one too)
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2017-12-17T11:04:08Z beach: I don't think so.
2017-12-17T11:04:14Z borodust: i see, lemme try
2017-12-17T11:04:51Z beach: Also for docstrings, I use #.(format nil ...) so that I can use ~@ at the end of lines and indent the next line without affecting the docstring.
2017-12-17T11:05:24Z borodust: i'm actually thinking moving all docstrings into separate files
2017-12-17T11:05:53Z beach: Yes, I do that, but I still use #.(format nil ...).
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2017-12-17T11:08:36Z borodust: hmm, i added slime-indentation to slime-setup list but that didn't help :/
2017-12-17T11:09:49Z Shinmera: borodust: Parens at the beginning of lines within strings or comment blocks screw with SLIME
2017-12-17T11:09:59Z Shinmera: Use \( if you have that.
2017-12-17T11:10:21Z borodust: :sigh
2017-12-17T11:10:45Z borodust: thanks Shinmera
2017-12-17T11:11:19Z borodust: that was it
2017-12-17T11:12:05Z Shinmera: Hoorah for regex based matching
2017-12-17T11:14:48Z beach: Wow.
2017-12-17T11:15:17Z beach instantly wants to work on the incremental Common Lisp parser.
2017-12-17T11:15:55Z Shinmera: :)
2017-12-17T11:26:08Z jmercouris: Ok, so I'll always put do on the line with the clause, that's a good rule to have
2017-12-17T11:26:31Z jmercouris: In terms of the when, unless not, I always prefer not using double negatives, so that one I will have to consider for some more time
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2017-12-17T11:26:58Z beach: I am amazed that this issue always gets debated when I bring it up.
2017-12-17T11:26:58Z jmercouris: In terms of indentation, I don't like always what slime is doing for me, especially in parenscript, it has some strange behavior sometimes
2017-12-17T11:27:41Z beach: I take it most people in #lisp are not used to collaborative programming.  I guess that's kind of normal in some way.
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2017-12-17T11:30:15Z jmercouris: I am very used to collaborative programming, that's why I'm such a huge fan of standards
2017-12-17T11:30:25Z jmercouris: it's just that this rule is directly in conflict with another rule in Python
2017-12-17T11:30:41Z beach: That's hilarious.
2017-12-17T11:30:50Z beach: Rules are per-language.
2017-12-17T11:31:06Z jmercouris: In python one should only care about the truthiness, and I think that's a good way of doing things
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2017-12-17T11:31:21Z jmercouris: why should I care if it is a list or not? only that its value is false
2017-12-17T11:31:38Z shka: jmercouris: i don't get ya
2017-12-17T11:32:12Z beach: jmercouris: Notice how you say "I always prefer",  "I don't like", "I think that's a good way".
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2017-12-17T11:33:16Z shka: beach: hello, btw
2017-12-17T11:33:24Z beach: Hello shka.
2017-12-17T11:33:26Z jmercouris: beach: What are you trying to say?
2017-12-17T11:33:27Z shka: have a nice sunday!
2017-12-17T11:34:00Z beach: jmercouris: That you claim to be in favor of standards, but then you have several objections that indicate that your personal preference if more important.
2017-12-17T11:34:35Z jmercouris: beach: I think you're right I should reconsider my objections, thank you for pointing out this inconsistency
2017-12-17T11:34:51Z beach: jmercouris: Look, I don't care how you write your code.  I gave you advice that corresponds to what two great Common Lisp gurus have written.  If you don't want to follow it, then that's fine with me.
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2017-12-17T11:35:20Z jmercouris: beach: I understand you have no stake in it, which is what makes your opinion objective and useful, you don't have to remind me of that
2017-12-17T11:35:30Z beach: OK, good.
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2017-12-17T11:35:54Z jmercouris: I am always ready to admit when I am wrong, which is unfortunately too frequently :D
2017-12-17T11:36:10Z shka: nah
2017-12-17T11:36:14Z shka: being wrong is fine
2017-12-17T11:36:44Z shka: being stubborn is not
2017-12-17T11:37:41Z jmercouris: shka: being wrong is fine, being stubborn is the worst, and being correct is the best ;)
2017-12-17T11:38:19Z shka: sometimes there is no "correct"
2017-12-17T11:38:37Z |3b| thinks being stubborn isn't too bad when you are right, but since you tend to think you are right when you are wrong, any blanket rating of stubbornness isn't much use :)
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2017-12-17T11:44:04Z Zhivago: I think it's simply honest to say, "I prefer X", rather than "X is better".
2017-12-17T11:44:28Z shka: yes, but who cares about that? ;-)
2017-12-17T11:45:02Z jmercouris: Zhivago: that it is, I was not lying about my position :D, but it is true that I should be more open to reconsidering some of my opinions if they conflict with some of the best lisp devs
2017-12-17T11:45:31Z jmercouris: maybe in the end I will not agree, but I should give them a more thorough consideratio
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2017-12-17T11:47:29Z dmiles is now known as dmiles[m]
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2017-12-17T11:53:42Z Tota|Ev613: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ HAPPY NIGGER DAY!! PLEASE SAY HI TO ALL THE DUMB NIGGERS IN #FREENODE...quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697dsyhmwnj: jack_rabbit Fare holycow ericmathison heurist` oleo Zhivago MochaLoca wheelsucker nullman Mon_Ouie davsebamse shka kozy mishoo_ josemanuel d4ryus1 _Trasformatore_ wigust nirved FreeBirdLjj smurfrobot cpape pmetzger damke_ raphaelss nydel nalkri atgree
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2017-12-17T11:53:58Z shka: uhm
2017-12-17T11:54:17Z shka: guy has a problem
2017-12-17T11:54:36Z jackdaniel: bot creator?
2017-12-17T11:54:41Z shka: yes
2017-12-17T11:54:49Z shka: why he would like to do anything like this
2017-12-17T11:55:31Z jackdaniel: there must be systematic problem causing this, becuase number of people loosely called trolls raises and I'm not only talking about the internet
2017-12-17T11:55:56Z jackdaniel: something not quite right with the society directions I'd say, if it were #lispcafe ;)
2017-12-17T11:56:20Z jackdaniel: but since it #lisp, I'll say: PAIP is an amazing book
2017-12-17T11:56:25Z jackdaniel: it's*
2017-12-17T11:56:48Z shka: it certainly is
2017-12-17T11:56:56Z jmercouris: I think it's a spam bot, probably trying to agitate you into clicking the URL
2017-12-17T11:57:05Z jackdaniel: shka: oh, you're reading PAIP too?
2017-12-17T11:57:06Z jmercouris: so it names as many nicks as possible
2017-12-17T11:57:23Z shka: jmercouris: i finished it already
2017-12-17T11:57:30Z shka: i bought book last year
2017-12-17T11:57:36Z shka: so i had a massive head start
2017-12-17T11:58:00Z shka: jmercouris: sorry, tabfail
2017-12-17T11:58:09Z jmercouris: shka: It's okay, I figured as much :)
2017-12-17T11:58:13Z jackdaniel: good for you
2017-12-17T11:58:18Z shka: PAIP was my first contact with prolog
2017-12-17T11:58:40Z shka: i am awed by it
2017-12-17T11:59:29Z shka: there is so much around it that is interesting
2017-12-17T11:59:48Z shka: term indexing, WAM and so on
2017-12-17T12:00:11Z shka: knowledge representation
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2017-12-17T12:02:17Z xenon-: hi
2017-12-17T12:02:34Z xenon-: I think there's a function that does this, but I can't recall its name.
2017-12-17T12:03:20Z jackdaniel: does what?
2017-12-17T12:03:22Z xenon-: (lambda (x) (if (< x 0) -1 1))
2017-12-17T12:03:40Z jackdaniel: signum
2017-12-17T12:04:04Z xenon-: thanks!
2017-12-17T12:04:13Z jackdaniel: sure
2017-12-17T12:05:24Z dmiles[m]: shka: not sure if you heard of CYC?
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2017-12-17T12:06:00Z xenon-: I guess I might as well ask if there's a function that does this? :). (lambda (x) (* (signum x) (floor (+ (abs x) 0.5))))
2017-12-17T12:06:02Z dmiles[m]: shka: have you heard of or studied CYC?
2017-12-17T12:06:36Z xenon-: fround is slightly different
2017-12-17T12:07:59Z |3b|: round towards 0?
2017-12-17T12:08:29Z xenon-: fround rounds toward even. (fround 2.5) => 2. I want 3
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2017-12-17T12:09:36Z |3b|: or rather round away from 0 i guess
2017-12-17T12:09:48Z xenon-: yes
2017-12-17T12:10:31Z |3b| doesn't think so, not sure if (truncate (+ x (* 0.5 (signum x)))) is any better (or whatever it is if i didn't get that right)
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2017-12-17T12:19:12Z xenon-: that works too
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2017-12-17T12:49:13Z xenon-: just noticed that format's ~,1F already does the right thing. good
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2017-12-17T12:49:41Z xenon-: so I pretty much wasted my time writing round-to-places function
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2017-12-17T13:47:53Z jmercouris: This isn't exactly a lisp question, but I've been thinking about how to monetize nEXT so that I can work on it full time, and one idea that I had was this: opt-in crypto mining, something like, "If you want to support nEXT development, please install/configure miner plugin" and I could have a really well made plugin that can be set to use only up to 5% cpu, only during specific times, etc, so that if a user wants to help, they can
2017-12-17T13:47:56Z jmercouris: any thoughts on this?
2017-12-17T13:49:21Z Shinmera: That's not gonna get you any money is my thought
2017-12-17T13:49:41Z jmercouris: Shinmera: It really depends on which coin you are mining and how you are trading things
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2017-12-17T13:50:03Z jmercouris: You are right, if I only have 50 users, it may not make any money, but if I have 1000 users, maybe I can make like 500 a month or something
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2017-12-17T13:53:04Z Zhivago: Well, you're probably just in time to watch bitcoin crash and burn.
2017-12-17T13:54:00Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: I share the same suspition, but I had it 3 years ago or so too
2017-12-17T13:54:02Z jmercouris: Zhivago: :D, there will be a crash as there has been many times before, but I think there is a future in cryptocurrency
2017-12-17T13:54:27Z Zhivago: Sure, just not a completely stupid one.
2017-12-17T13:54:41Z Zhivago: I'd consider tying into the mobile app infrastructure.
2017-12-17T13:54:44Z jmercouris: Yes, bitcoin has a lot of problems, but that is not the essence of my question, I didn't even mention bitcoin
2017-12-17T13:54:54Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Can you please elaborate what you mean?
2017-12-17T13:55:14Z Zhivago: If you had an app which you could buy for $1 which unlocked some features, then that might be below the threshold of annoyance for users.
2017-12-17T13:55:16Z fourier: best way to monetize nEXT is to use it as your cv to get a better job I'm afraid
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2017-12-17T13:55:47Z Zhivago: I'm unlikely to pay money to someone via ebay, but I'm at the point where I don't find it unreasonable to unlock something in an app for $1.
2017-12-17T13:55:54Z Zhivago: er, paypal, rather.
2017-12-17T13:55:58Z jmercouris: fourier: I will at some point, I am trying to get a new contract job soon, but I would like to try to make it work at some point
2017-12-17T13:56:15Z Zhivago: Simply because the infrastructure makes it easy to do so rather than an enormous pain in the arse.
2017-12-17T13:56:20Z pjb: Eventually, 1 BTC = 800,000+ USD; we won't trade in BTC but in Satoshi ≈ 1¢.
2017-12-17T13:56:51Z borodust: Xach: howz your experience with trivial-gamekit so far? was the documentation of any help? any hard edges?
2017-12-17T13:56:53Z Zhivago: If bitcoin gets to that stage, we'll be using all of the planet's power production on bitcoin computation.
2017-12-17T13:57:16Z Zhivago: Which is why bigcoin really can't.
2017-12-17T13:57:17Z pjb: Not really, and you're forgetting to compare the power consumption of the current banking system.
2017-12-17T13:57:23Z jmercouris: Zhivago: I've always felt that crypto was so ecologically irresponsible, we are just wasting cycles on bullshit
2017-12-17T13:57:28Z Shinmera: Can we not turn this into #bitcoin
2017-12-17T13:57:37Z fourier: then think about casual users and not about lispers. what advantages your browser has to someone to donate/pay for it, considering chrome, firefox, opera, etc are widely available
2017-12-17T13:57:39Z drdo: pjb: Damn, I missed your "eventually" when glancing and almost believed you with the crazy growth that has been going on lately
2017-12-17T13:57:40Z pjb: Everything is #bitcoin today :-)
2017-12-17T13:57:46Z Zhivago: jermcouris: Well, it's not the crypto that's the fundamental cost here.
2017-12-17T13:58:15Z jmercouris: fourier: Do you have some ideas?
2017-12-17T13:58:38Z pjb: jmercouris: it's expensive to maintain a distributed network of workers.  Really, it's not that simple.
2017-12-17T13:58:49Z fourier: no, im happy with current state of browsers with their plugins Im afraid again..
2017-12-17T13:58:58Z jmercouris: I have been thinking so far about this: the ability to send pages with marked up to non nEXT users, backups for bookmarks, history etc, synchronization of data across devices
2017-12-17T13:59:21Z jmercouris: pjb: Computationally expensive? or ?
2017-12-17T13:59:25Z fourier: this all already exist in other browsers
2017-12-17T13:59:45Z jmercouris: fourier: no, one cannot send a document with markup to another individual
2017-12-17T13:59:58Z pjb: jmercouris: no, it's a lot of work.
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2017-12-17T14:00:06Z pjb: programming, admin, etc.
2017-12-17T14:00:08Z jmercouris: maybe I should just sell corporate licenses, and hope that people use it in their place of business :D
2017-12-17T14:00:14Z fourier: have you searched for plugins for that for firefox? :)
2017-12-17T14:00:14Z jmercouris: pjb: Ah, yes, definitely
2017-12-17T14:00:20Z jmercouris: fourier: I'm good
2017-12-17T14:00:20Z Zhivago: jermcouris: You could always add loot boxes.
2017-12-17T14:00:25Z jmercouris: Zhivago: lmao
2017-12-17T14:00:47Z jmercouris: Another idea that I had recently was an "opt-in" amazon affiliates, like some simple config you can add so that you are using my amazon affiliates code to support nEXT
2017-12-17T14:00:52Z fourier: should be something distinctive feature, the killer feature
2017-12-17T14:01:21Z jmercouris: fourier: what would be your killer feature? what have you always wanted to do?
2017-12-17T14:01:47Z jmercouris: maybe there is a way to give users a sense of pride and accomplishment?
2017-12-17T14:02:01Z Zhivago: I saw an app like that.
2017-12-17T14:02:04Z fourier: maybe smart tabs/window management. like group all stackoverflow tabs to one window etc
2017-12-17T14:02:35Z fourier: typical problem browser users have is too many open tabs
2017-12-17T14:02:37Z Zhivago: You paid $1000 and could show people an icon of a diamond, which gave users a sense of pride and accomplishment in being rich enough to waste $1000 on an icon of a diamond.
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2017-12-17T14:02:48Z jmercouris: fourier: That would be very simple to implement given my current architecture, anyone could just make a plugin that does it
2017-12-17T14:03:13Z fourier: do it if its simple, dont wait for users
2017-12-17T14:03:27Z jmercouris: Yes, but I can't charge them for something they could make themselves in 10 minutes lol
2017-12-17T14:03:34Z pjb: Also, nowadays people don't use desktop browsers anymore; they browse the web on tablets and handheld computers, where energy consumption is closely watched. If you app drains the battery, it'll get deleted soon.
2017-12-17T14:03:37Z Shinmera: You'd be surprised
2017-12-17T14:03:38Z fourier: and provide this plugin as an example
2017-12-17T14:03:47Z Zhivago: Something they could make themselves in 10 minutes if they were you?
2017-12-17T14:03:56Z jmercouris: pjb: It is a desktop only browser, it is made for actual work, not for "browsing"
2017-12-17T14:03:59Z pjb: ie. you cannot count on a large base of computing node, if you target desktop.
2017-12-17T14:04:13Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Yes, I guess if they were me :D, perhaps a different person would spend a couple days
2017-12-17T14:04:19Z pjb: better spend your time on better browsing features, than on managing mining.
2017-12-17T14:04:36Z pjb: If you want to earn money mining then buy mining hardware.
2017-12-17T14:04:42Z Zhivago: And a couple of days work is a reasonably large opportunity cost.
2017-12-17T14:05:29Z fourier: as for us lisp nerds it would be cool if you build it in as a plugin to say Climacs and Lispworks, to popup and show clhs in it real quick and easy :)
2017-12-17T14:06:17Z fourier: beach: how is Climacs now? is it usable for CL code now, can it replace emacs+slime for simple usage patterns?
2017-12-17T14:07:32Z jmercouris: pjb: I will investigate more
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2017-12-17T14:08:31Z jmercouris: One last final thought I had to sound off you guys, I was considering making "paid plugins" that do things that would mostly only be interesting to someone using nEXT in a corporate environment, things like single sign on integration, VPN integration
2017-12-17T14:09:06Z pjb: This sounds a better idea.
2017-12-17T14:09:15Z pjb: If you can find such a customer.
2017-12-17T14:09:32Z pjb: Ie. you're not selling a browser, you're selling a solution to a specific corporate problem.
2017-12-17T14:09:40Z jmercouris: I was imagining such a customer would be someone who works at a startup that uses my browser
2017-12-17T14:09:40Z fourier: yep that is nice
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2017-12-17T14:09:57Z jmercouris: and they want to use it for all of their stuff at work, so they need some support for a few things
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2017-12-17T14:12:26Z fourier: jmercouris: can I install it from quicklisp and launch off my CL? so I can use my repl to operate/controll it
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2017-12-17T14:13:55Z jmercouris: fourier: Yes, but it isn't in the quicklisp repositories
2017-12-17T14:15:34Z jmercouris: fourier: please note, MacOS only at the moment, I'm learning/working on the GTK port
2017-12-17T14:15:54Z jmercouris: fourier: reading this should give you an idea of how you could run it: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/next#developer-installation
2017-12-17T14:16:17Z jmercouris: fourier: sorry, wrong link, this is what I meant: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/tree/master/next#run-from-source
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2017-12-17T14:28:03Z fourier: jmercouris: on my attempt to load it this way I got an error: Error: Can't create directory "/Applications/Clozure CL.app/Contents/Resources/ccl/mac-ui/".
2017-12-17T14:28:40Z fourier: While executing: ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST
2017-12-17T14:29:01Z pjb: fourier: /Applications is usually owned by root.
2017-12-17T14:29:20Z pjb: Make a local copy of the application ~/Applications/ and proceed from there.
2017-12-17T14:29:48Z pjb: alternatively, patch it to use a different target directory for compilation and generation of temporary files.
2017-12-17T14:29:54Z pjb: cf. #ccl
2017-12-17T14:30:41Z fourier: yep, its rather ccl or some dependency problem.
2017-12-17T14:31:07Z pjb: I would say it's a ccl bug: it generates stuff in its src or installation directory.
2017-12-17T14:32:36Z jmercouris: fourier: You don't actually have to compile it to load and play with it via slime, you can also download the DMG and start a swank server you can connect to: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/blob/master/documents/MANUAL.org#slime-with-a-compiled-version-of-next
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2017-12-17T14:34:21Z fourier: no I was thinking mostly of using browser as a part of lisp image, i.e. to present html documentation in the CL-based app.
2017-12-17T14:34:58Z jmercouris: fourier: then you will probably want to install CCL not with the mac app, but with the "manual" installation
2017-12-17T14:35:23Z Shinmera: Loading a huge system just to show some docs doesn't seem like a great course of action
2017-12-17T14:35:50Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Huge system? I pull in VERY few dependencies, and all the libraries for Cocoa/Webkit exist natively on OSX
2017-12-17T14:36:00Z jmercouris: My binary with a complete CL image, etc, is 15MB
2017-12-17T14:36:44Z jmercouris: Adding nEXT to any existing CCL image will add probably AT MOST a few KB to the image, though I haven't tested it to be sure
2017-12-17T14:37:29Z Shinmera: Huge in terms of functionality being pulled in.
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2017-12-17T14:40:12Z jmercouris: Ah, in that case you are correct!
2017-12-17T14:40:47Z Zhivago: jmercouris: Looking at nEXT, it's not really clear to me what real-world problem it solves.
2017-12-17T14:41:24Z Zhivago: (which makes it hard to see how to market it)
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2017-12-17T14:43:22Z jmercouris: Zhivago: The problem next solves is that it gives power users a way to tailor and extend their browser to their workflow to be more efficient in ways that are currently (and probably never will be) possible in casual browsers meant for general-purpose browsing
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2017-12-17T14:44:12Z Zhivago: So, this is a competitor to javascript?
2017-12-17T14:44:40Z jmercouris: Zhivago: As an example, let's say your job requires you to fill out a web-form with the date all the time, and there are maybe 30 of these web-forms linked from a master page. You could write a plugin that opens 30 new tabs with all of the forms, enters the current date, and then maybe some other functions for populating the forms with data
2017-12-17T14:45:02Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Yes and no, Javascript is limited only in that it can change the web-view itself, nEXT allows you to manipulate and change the Chrome in ways that JS does not
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2017-12-17T14:45:33Z jmercouris: Zhivago: So you might make a plugin that changes the transparency of unrelated windows, or opens up 10 new frames, or executes some lisp code on your machine, etc
2017-12-17T14:45:46Z Zhivago: Ok, although we can already do that using a programmatic browser -- and those are used a lot of scraping.
2017-12-17T14:46:41Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Maybe you could, but this is just the main difference of nEXT, the other great thing is that this environment has enabled me to develop a lot of very cool extensions very quickly to just make one quicker at browser than in general, the combination of all of these plugins together is what makes it better than something like Chrome
2017-12-17T14:47:09Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Additionally, nEXT is not beholden to some arbitrary plugin ecosystem that can decide "NO MORE API FOR YOU!" as we witnessed in the Firefox Apocalpyse
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2017-12-17T14:47:57Z Zhivago: Fair enough. So browser automation, then. I assume that it runs javascript like a proper browser? :)
2017-12-17T14:48:22Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Yes, though I refused to put any JS directly in my codebase, and anything I'm using JS for is written in parenscript macros
2017-12-17T14:48:54Z jmercouris: s/written in parenscript macros/written in macros that generate parenscript from parenscript source
2017-12-17T14:49:18Z Zhivago: I think you need to work on writing this down for your site, since reading it doesn't make it very clear.
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2017-12-17T14:50:18Z jmercouris: Zhivago: The marketing message is a little confused indeed because I am trying to target too many audiences at once, on one hand, I would be very glad to have the support of the lisp community as they will be the chief innovators/users of the product, and on the other hand, I want to make sure that people who haven't used a productivity-centric browser can understand the advantages it may confer to them
2017-12-17T14:51:04Z Zhivago: I'd consider making distinct messages for each group.
2017-12-17T14:51:07Z jmercouris: Zhivago: If you have better ideas for a marketing message, please send me an email or make a pull request, I did have a very nice user contact me the other day with a message, I need to look it up/ will repost it shortly when I find it
2017-12-17T14:52:55Z jmercouris: Zhivago: Here's the message the guy came up with: nEXT is a keyboard-oriented, extensible web-browser inspired by Emacs and designed for power users. The application has familiar key-bindings, is fully configurable and extensible in Lisp, and has powerful features for productive professionals.
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2017-12-17T15:04:50Z Xach: borodust: i have had some trouble
2017-12-17T15:05:46Z Xach: borodust: however, i need to work on having proper expectations and understanding of how things work before reporting things as bugs
2017-12-17T15:06:02Z beach: fourier: (first) Climacs works, but it isn't good enough for what I want.  So I am working on Second Climacs, which will have a much more sophisticated incremental analyzer of Common Lisp code.
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2017-12-17T15:07:36Z borodust: Xach: what was the problem?
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2017-12-17T15:11:11Z Xach: borodust: i started a window with a little demo code that draws a square at the mouse cursor. when i close the window and try to re-start it, i end up in the debugger.
2017-12-17T15:11:51Z Xach: https://gist.github.com/quicklisp/0be462f298eb7af9de03f55f94196224 has the code
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2017-12-17T15:18:38Z borodust: Xach: ah, i see, it isn't quite stable in this regard at this moment and there known problems when engine is restarted several times per image (probably due to a resource leak). Does this still happen if you close window with #'gamekti:stop?
2017-12-17T15:18:52Z Xach: I will try it soon
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2017-12-17T15:19:26Z borodust: Xach: thanks
2017-12-17T15:20:11Z borodust: Xach: also, I recommend binding input inside #'post-initalize function https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/manual/#gamekit-post-initialize
2017-12-17T15:20:23Z Xach: ok
2017-12-17T15:20:24Z borodust: i added it into example recently
2017-12-17T15:20:39Z borodust: *incorporated
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2017-12-17T15:30:56Z Xach: borodust: gamekit:stop allows for restarting. closing the window with the window controls does not. (this is with latest updated dist)
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2017-12-17T15:31:49Z borodust: Xach: what debugger says?
2017-12-17T15:32:43Z borodust: or, like, which error is reported
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2017-12-17T15:35:10Z Xach: Hmm, I can't induce the error now. I'll try harder.
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2017-12-17T15:37:26Z borodust: Xach: it will probably reappear if you try to close window and call #'start around the same time
2017-12-17T15:37:49Z Xach: borodust: ok, i can't seem to get an error right now
2017-12-17T15:38:38Z Xach: which is good!
2017-12-17T15:39:07Z borodust: i'm not sure yet if that's good :) depends on the error
2017-12-17T15:39:42Z borodust: if it was saying smth like "Engine already running" than that's ok
2017-12-17T15:39:58Z Xach: aha, i have just gotten an error. will paste.
2017-12-17T15:40:04Z borodust: it needs some time to shutdown and release everything
2017-12-17T15:40:24Z borodust: cool! lets see
2017-12-17T15:40:38Z Xach: https://gist.github.com/quicklisp/ff3ada01d8efa7cb4ca4ab7c76ae5e74
2017-12-17T15:40:51Z Xach: I got two sldb buffers with the same error
2017-12-17T15:40:59Z borodust: i see
2017-12-17T15:42:23Z borodust: Xach: i fixed related problem recently, updating dist should help
2017-12-17T15:42:44Z borodust only hopes he didn't break anything else :/
2017-12-17T15:42:54Z Xach: borodust: i am using the latest
2017-12-17T15:43:28Z borodust: actually, hold on, i didn't publish those yet
2017-12-17T15:43:29Z borodust: yeah
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2017-12-17T15:45:06Z borodust: Xach: updated dist
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2017-12-17T15:59:26Z jmercouris: Goal: Move element to the beginning of list, What would be the better approach: Make a copy of the list with the element in the first position, Modify list in place with car/cdr, Anything else?
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2017-12-17T16:02:55Z pjb: better for what?
2017-12-17T16:03:31Z jmercouris: That's a good question, I'll give some more specifics, the list is between 0-50 elements, frequently changing in size
2017-12-17T16:03:47Z jmercouris: Which approach would be more readable? more lispy?
2017-12-17T16:03:48Z beach: If the element is already at the beginning, do nothing.  Otherwise, find the CONS cell that precedes the one containing the element.  Short-circuit the list using (setf cdr).  Finally link the unlinked cell to the beginning of the list.
2017-12-17T16:04:35Z pjb: Can it contain duplicates? Is it shared (do you have multiple references to its cells)?  Are there multiple threads accessing it in parallel?
2017-12-17T16:05:28Z jmercouris: pjb: There is only one master reference to this list, no one may delete something from this list without using this lists reference
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2017-12-17T16:05:38Z beach: Or, if you don't care about the order of the remaining elements, swap the first element with the one you want to move.
2017-12-17T16:05:39Z jmercouris: There are multiple thread accessing it in parallel, but they may only read
2017-12-17T16:05:53Z jmercouris: beach: I care about their order
2017-12-17T16:06:09Z jmercouris: I'm trying to remember the term for this kind of stack/structure
2017-12-17T16:06:11Z pjb: do you want the threads to be able to read at the same time you move the element?
2017-12-17T16:06:30Z beach: jmercouris: priority queue.
2017-12-17T16:06:30Z jmercouris: I think the term is something like spatially recent, it's on the tip of my tongue
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2017-12-17T16:07:00Z jmercouris: pjb: The threads have reference to the individual elements, I would rather not create/destroy the elements, only change the list itself
2017-12-17T16:07:00Z beach: Maybe not.
2017-12-17T16:07:18Z jmercouris: Let me look through my notes...
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2017-12-17T16:07:26Z pjb: jmercouris: also, you said that the size changes.  How (what thread) do you remove elements?
2017-12-17T16:07:40Z pjb: (from the head, the middle, the tail?)
2017-12-17T16:07:41Z jmercouris: pjb: Only the main thread may add/delete elements
2017-12-17T16:08:12Z jmercouris: They are always pushed onto the list, and deleted with delete
2017-12-17T16:08:35Z jmercouris: so I always do something like this (setf listy (delete delete-this-element listy))
2017-12-17T16:08:56Z jmercouris: and I add only via (push new-element listy)
2017-12-17T16:09:09Z pjb: If you already use delete to delete them, then (setf list (cons element (delete element list))) would be a consistent way to move it to the front.
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2017-12-17T16:09:20Z beach: jmercouris: You can do that if performance is not a big deal.
2017-12-17T16:09:46Z jmercouris: Well, this operation is not executed more than lets say once a minute, and the list is small
2017-12-17T16:10:01Z beach: No problem then.
2017-12-17T16:10:18Z jmercouris: Ok, I will do this way then
2017-12-17T16:10:22Z pjb: you may want to add :count 1 if you can have multiple occurences.
2017-12-17T16:10:27Z jmercouris: I understand speed is implementation dependent
2017-12-17T16:10:40Z pjb: for delete it'll be O(n).
2017-12-17T16:10:45Z jmercouris: but if the elements within the list are large, does this affect the speed of the creation of the list? I cannot see why it would, but maybe there is something I dont know
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2017-12-17T16:11:03Z pjb: No, it does not.
2017-12-17T16:11:06Z beach: No, it won't.
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2017-12-17T16:11:19Z pjb: What may matter is the test you use. By default it's eql which is O(1).
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2017-12-17T16:11:39Z pjb: But if you use eg. :test 'string= then it becomes O(m), total O(m*n).
2017-12-17T16:11:40Z jmercouris: Yeah, I have a reference always to the item I want to move, so I can leave it at eql
2017-12-17T16:11:45Z pjb: which may be a problem.
2017-12-17T16:11:58Z pjb: good.
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2017-12-17T16:12:40Z jmercouris: beach pjb, thank you for your help!
2017-12-17T16:13:34Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-12-17T17:24:27Z fourier: anyone got to work Lisp syntax highlighting on Github Pages ?
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2017-12-17T17:37:41Z dim: ``` lisp
2017-12-17T17:38:42Z dim: oh, or maybe you mean something else, I use Github Pages but with a local static HTML toolkit: gohugo (used to be home made CL code but I don't care about maintaining that)
2017-12-17T17:38:56Z fourier: ```lisp does not really work for me... maybe theme prevents it ? i'm using minima theme.
2017-12-17T17:39:13Z fourier: yes I'm using Jekyll.
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2017-12-17T17:48:06Z jmercouris: 1. I have a GUI that has a textbox, 2. I can only prompt the textbox for its value, 3. I recieve all keystroke events in my program 4. I want to make a blocking read/input function similar to on a terminal, 5. do you think I should use a semaphore to do this?
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2017-12-17T17:50:46Z shka: jmercouris: you should not
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2017-12-17T17:51:03Z shka: it makes things complicated
2017-12-17T17:51:08Z jmercouris: shka: Ok
2017-12-17T17:51:15Z shka: use event loop if you must
2017-12-17T17:51:19Z jmercouris: let me provide a full context, then, tell me what you think instead
2017-12-17T17:51:33Z jmercouris: One moment please
2017-12-17T17:51:43Z shka: but don't create more threads then you need (that would be one for GUI and one for internal logic)
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2017-12-17T17:52:23Z shka: well, i will be around for two hours
2017-12-17T17:53:21Z jmercouris: Here's what I am doing: https://gist.github.com/944e60992fd391fc9008485788342ce6
2017-12-17T17:53:39Z jmercouris: Tell me if the example doesn't make sense
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2017-12-17T17:55:09Z shka: certainly bad idea
2017-12-17T17:55:18Z jmercouris: So, my current solution is entirely non-blocking because I pass a reference to a function which I call at some point in the future
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2017-12-17T17:55:30Z jmercouris: I think that a blocking input solution is good for a lot of simple little functions
2017-12-17T17:55:41Z shka: i would not do that
2017-12-17T17:55:44Z jmercouris: Otherwise you have to chain your inputs in strange ways
2017-12-17T17:55:48Z shka: yes
2017-12-17T17:56:17Z shka: i would rather focus on make this chaining easier
2017-12-17T17:56:46Z jmercouris: Well, let's consider a very simpel example
2017-12-17T17:57:03Z shka: blocking threads leads to more threads, more threads leads to more locks, more locks lead to problems and performance degradation
2017-12-17T17:57:49Z fourier: should you maintain a stack of ui elements, whoever on top should receiev all events and propagate to the next on stack if they are not consumed?
2017-12-17T17:58:10Z shka: so for GUI apps i rather prefer just two threads
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2017-12-17T17:58:23Z jmercouris: fourier: What?
2017-12-17T17:58:30Z shka: one for GUI, one for everything else that may block
2017-12-17T17:58:40Z shka: or takes time to finish
2017-12-17T17:58:43Z fourier: maybe i dont understand the problem :(
2017-12-17T17:58:44Z jmercouris: shka: Given this very simple function: (defun name-food (name food) (print name) (print food))
2017-12-17T17:59:03Z jmercouris: how would you chain the prompts for both inputs?
2017-12-17T17:59:20Z shka: and where is my gui?
2017-12-17T17:59:53Z shka: i would start with (curry #'name-food name food)
2017-12-17T17:59:54Z jmercouris: What about something like this? (:inputs (:food) (:name) food-name)
2017-12-17T18:00:00Z jmercouris: Lol, THAT'S HILARIOUS!
2017-12-17T18:00:11Z shka: this is not a joke
2017-12-17T18:00:23Z jmercouris: Yeah, I know what currying is, but that's just a hilarious coincidence
2017-12-17T18:00:34Z shka: well
2017-12-17T18:00:39Z shka: ok
2017-12-17T18:00:56Z jmercouris: okay, here's a slightly more tricky scenario
2017-12-17T18:01:08Z jmercouris: You want to get input B, IFF input A is some value
2017-12-17T18:01:17Z jmercouris: I don't see how you could chain asynchronously in this case
2017-12-17T18:01:37Z shka: where is input B?
2017-12-17T18:01:52Z jmercouris: shka: Let me put it as a defun so it makes more sense, one sec
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2017-12-17T18:02:25Z shka: if you have some sort of OK button, i don't see a problem
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2017-12-17T18:04:00Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/5885ae9c12ba3ea3fb4ef6c495fedcf6
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2017-12-17T18:04:35Z shka: i don't see a problem
2017-12-17T18:04:37Z jmercouris: of course this example is quite trivial and doesn't require chaining, but what if the second input depended on the first in some way
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2017-12-17T18:04:57Z shka: minibuffer uses enter for confirmation right?
2017-12-17T18:05:00Z jmercouris: what if the auto-complete suggestions of the second input depend upon the first
2017-12-17T18:05:02Z jmercouris: shka: Yes
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2017-12-17T18:05:46Z shka: then just slap history in the state and be done with it
2017-12-17T18:06:18Z shka: don't make it complicated
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2017-12-17T18:06:32Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make it simple actually :D
2017-12-17T18:06:44Z jmercouris: I'm just thinking about how users may write functions
2017-12-17T18:06:51Z shka: other than that
2017-12-17T18:07:18Z shka: launching name-food first asks about name, then about food, right?
2017-12-17T18:07:26Z jmercouris: shka: that's the idea
2017-12-17T18:07:41Z jmercouris: but the function should be able to be given name and then do any arbitrary processing before asking about food
2017-12-17T18:07:55Z shka: still, don't block
2017-12-17T18:08:13Z shka: use CPS and stuff
2017-12-17T18:08:56Z jmercouris: I mean certainly one could write a function like (defun name (name)) and then (defun name-food (name food)) where after executing name, it would call name-food with the value of name, but passing state between those two defuns would be exceptionally complex
2017-12-17T18:09:06Z jmercouris: shka: CPS?
2017-12-17T18:09:16Z shka: continuation passing style
2017-12-17T18:09:27Z shka: on lisp explains it
2017-12-17T18:10:41Z jmercouris: yeah, I'm looking at the wiki article
2017-12-17T18:10:42Z jmercouris: I get it
2017-12-17T18:11:19Z jmercouris: that seems needless complex
2017-12-17T18:11:39Z shka: oh well
2017-12-17T18:11:47Z jmercouris: I mean compare the left hand side to the right hand side for so many of the examples :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style
2017-12-17T18:12:16Z jmercouris: I feel like this imposes too great a burden upon people using my program
2017-12-17T18:13:01Z jmercouris: maybe there is a way I can write a macro that intelligently breaks apart calls somehow to avoid blocking
2017-12-17T18:13:15Z jmercouris: without putting a huge burden on my end user
2017-12-17T18:13:19Z nyef``: Heh. And the occasionally-tried approach of doing the CPS-conversion automatically has its own drawbacks.
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2017-12-17T18:19:33Z shka: yes
2017-12-17T18:19:48Z shka: in fact i think it is more problem then it is worth
2017-12-17T18:20:06Z shka: on-lisp style macros is as far as i would go
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2017-12-17T18:23:37Z jmercouris: shka: Concurrency is its own kind of bullshit, but maybe I don't have to worry about that, when the system is getting input, maybe it should block
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2017-12-17T18:23:47Z jmercouris: I obviously can't block on the GUI thread, but yeah
2017-12-17T18:23:53Z shka: riiiiiiiiiight
2017-12-17T18:23:55Z shka: :P
2017-12-17T18:24:01Z jmercouris: ah shit, if a function from the GUI thread were to call for input, that would be a disaster
2017-12-17T18:24:17Z jmercouris: one can of worms for another
2017-12-17T18:24:25Z jmercouris: I'm sure you've also seen this right? http://www.cliki.net/CPS
2017-12-17T18:24:33Z shka: sure
2017-12-17T18:25:43Z jmercouris: Maybe I will just focus on making the chaining simpler through the use of some macro
2017-12-17T18:25:58Z jmercouris: it won't attempt to automatically convert the code, but at least make a simpler syntax
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2017-12-17T18:26:24Z jmercouris: this needs more thought
2017-12-17T18:27:51Z fourier: wrote down some of my tests with SERIES package: https://fourier.github.io/lisp/2017/12/17/series.html
2017-12-17T18:28:11Z fourier: actually quite impressed with performance
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2017-12-17T18:29:13Z shka: you should not be
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2017-12-17T18:29:25Z shka: code transformation, lack of buffers
2017-12-17T18:29:26Z shka: it is very fast
2017-12-17T18:29:38Z shka: mostly because there is nothing that can be slow!
2017-12-17T18:29:40Z shka: ;-)
2017-12-17T18:30:30Z fourier: yep, but my point in general that I write in a highlevel functional style and dont give up on performance.
2017-12-17T18:31:36Z fourier: I'll try to rewrite some loops in my libraries with it and see if it makes it more readable and optimization still holds
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2017-12-17T19:43:33Z aeth: fourier: there's definitely room for something like series
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2017-12-17T19:44:36Z aeth: I personally see CL as a language for writing declarative macros.
2017-12-17T19:46:15Z jmercouris: Can someone explain what's wrong with this code? https://gist.github.com/e0f61735782211eae4bd2a512d87269c how is NEXT-APPLICATION undelcared?
2017-12-17T19:46:21Z jmercouris: If I recompile, that warning goes away
2017-12-17T19:47:06Z jmercouris: I am growing more confident of dyslexia with time, s/undelcared/undeclared
2017-12-17T19:47:23Z fourier: im more interested in something like rxjava though, of the same quality. they took it into java9 now. I started to look at series thinking it is something similar but it is not (and cells is a dead project)
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2017-12-17T19:49:10Z aeth: hah, I love the comment "Man, is GCL broken!". https://sourceforge.net/p/series/series/ci/813f28ae2516ed118697bfffeb48d0c52f2eed32/tree/s-code.lisp#l870
2017-12-17T19:50:41Z fourier: jmercouris: because next-application is not a variable?
2017-12-17T19:51:03Z jmercouris: ah yes, indeed, thank you
2017-12-17T19:51:17Z jmercouris: maybe I should spend less hours per day programming
2017-12-17T19:52:53Z aeth: Hmm... looks like on the surface, series conforms to what I think is the way to write efficient CL, i.e. macros, not higher order functions.
2017-12-17T19:53:08Z aeth: Feel free to make the macros look like higher order functions, of course.
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2017-12-17T19:53:53Z aeth: oh, hmm, it can take lambdas
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2017-12-17T19:54:41Z fourier: it depends on a situation I guess, mostly not (hard to debug, etc) but for a general-purpose framework with the focus on optimization is a right way to go.
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2017-12-17T19:55:26Z aeth: Well, I don't think all CL has to be fast CL.
2017-12-17T19:55:58Z akkad: fast is the only measurable item noobs can grok
2017-12-17T19:56:36Z aeth: There are three easily measurable things: speed, consing, and conciseness
2017-12-17T19:56:41Z |3b|: not all code has to be measured for noobs :)
2017-12-17T19:57:12Z aeth: Advanced mode is figuring out cache misses
2017-12-17T19:57:35Z aeth: I don't even know where you'd start, there.
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2017-12-17T20:00:25Z akkad: more like cpi
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2017-12-17T20:29:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: fourier: you might look at cells
2017-12-17T20:30:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might be "dead", but it works pretty well
2017-12-17T20:31:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's more "finished" than "dead": if I'm not mistaken, Kenny Tilton still uses it for things like his algebra-teaching site
2017-12-17T20:31:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The biggest issue with it is that there's little to no documentation
2017-12-17T20:34:11Z fourier: ive seen it, and i wrote about "quality" :)
2017-12-17T20:34:26Z fourier: documentation is a measure of quality for me.
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2017-12-17T20:35:03Z akkad: T
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2017-12-17T20:36:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I disagree, the skills and aptitude for writing documentation are different from the skills necessary to write good software.
2017-12-17T20:38:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have used plenty of good libraries with horrible documentation and plenty of bad libraries with ok documentation
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2017-12-17T20:40:02Z shka: writing documentation is hard
2017-12-17T20:40:05Z shka: really hard
2017-12-17T20:40:42Z jackdaniel: no, it just takes time which people are not willing to spend on writing docs
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2017-12-17T20:40:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is one of the impressive things about Shinmera's libraries: they are pleasant to use, and the documentation is really nice
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2017-12-17T20:41:33Z jackdaniel: it is not hard to write OK documentation when you create a project, it is hard to mobilize yourself to do it
2017-12-17T20:41:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: What makes documentation hard is understanding what newcomers to your project need to know
2017-12-17T20:42:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: For really simple libraries that do one obvious thing, it's not that difficult
2017-12-17T20:42:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But for complicated libraries, it's extremely difficult for someone familiar with the project to understand the perspective of a newcomer.
2017-12-17T20:43:35Z jackdaniel: simply outlining most important concepts and how they fit together makes OK documentation
2017-12-17T20:43:46Z jackdaniel: introduction for beginners makes it better
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2017-12-17T20:44:23Z shka: jackdaniel: it is damn hard for me
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2017-12-17T20:45:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's hard for people who do something well to understand how difficult it is to do what they do :)
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2017-12-17T20:46:35Z jackdaniel: that's why you are not documenting parts you find hard but concepts. but I may be very well wrong, I'm speaking of my intuition (which whispers – it's laziness not a technical problem to write a documentation)
2017-12-17T20:46:38Z jmercouris: Agreed, writing documentation is not hard, it's just hard to do
2017-12-17T20:47:40Z jmercouris: The biggest issue with documentation is forgetting everything you know, but remembering it at the same time so that you can write complete documentation, but understand what your users may be missing
2017-12-17T20:48:17Z jmercouris: You have to be able to paint the whole picture, and make no assumptions about the users' knowledge (except for some basic assumptions, which have to depend on a per project basis/target users)
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2017-12-17T21:12:51Z TMA: jmercouris: it is very hard to make those exceptional assumptions correctly.
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2017-12-17T21:14:40Z aeth: The problem with documentation is that it can easily become considerably out of date.
2017-12-17T21:14:46Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Why thank you
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2017-12-17T21:19:05Z jmercouris: TMA: Yeah, and that's one of the key differences between good/bad documentation, a good way around this is to constantly have noobs proof-read your docs and see where they have problems
2017-12-17T21:19:44Z TMA: good examples are beneficial too -- where "good" means: showcasing the typical usage (if it is typical to have more than one instance of THINGAMAJIC, make the example use at least two, not one. if it is idiomatic to do it one way, do not do it another way in the example); good examples are partially overlapping. (one uses A and B and showcases their interaction, other example showcases A and C)
2017-12-17T21:20:19Z aeth: TMA: That's why I think an examples directory is often better than traditional documentation, as long as the examples are heavily commented
2017-12-17T21:20:50Z jmercouris: aeth: It really depends on the software, whether it is a library or a user-facing GUI application
2017-12-17T21:20:55Z aeth: Not just a documentation example, but something that will break if someone forgot to update it.
2017-12-17T21:21:03Z jmercouris: aeth: It's not easy to convey the workflows of a GUI in plain-text in an exmaples dir
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2017-12-17T21:21:37Z jmercouris: aeth: I would agree though, for libs, I always look at the examples that come with it rather than some terse documentation
2017-12-17T21:21:58Z jmercouris: Or a tutorial, tutorials are always really good, because they are like an example, but with explanations
2017-12-17T21:22:17Z TMA: the examples provide a roadmap. then there needs to be a reference documentation, that can be as dry as required. it is important to document all the dark corners too ("although the type is (unsigned-byte 8) only powers of two are valid values")
2017-12-17T21:22:44Z jmercouris: TMA: The reference code is in the docstrings, hence this big debate yesterday or two days ago about formatting docstrings :D
2017-12-17T21:23:17Z shka: on the other hand
2017-12-17T21:23:57Z shka: I find writing documentation inspiring for design
2017-12-17T21:24:18Z aeth: Sometimes you do need a ton of documentation including a full reference, e.g. if you're writing your own loop-like macro
2017-12-17T21:24:24Z aeth: Because then you're effectively writing your own language
2017-12-17T21:24:26Z jmercouris: shka: Super true, you realize the shortcomings of your API when you are forced to use it as an outsider
2017-12-17T21:24:52Z jmercouris: or rather, forced to talk about it ala rubber duck
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2017-12-17T21:25:12Z shka: and realize that it is just suboptimal?
2017-12-17T21:25:13Z shka: yes
2017-12-17T21:25:19Z aeth: jmercouris: well the examples directory is what being forced to use it as an outsider is
2017-12-17T21:25:22Z shka: i have a lot of that :P
2017-12-17T21:25:26Z aeth: documentation's just describing it to an outsider
2017-12-17T21:25:51Z jmercouris: aeth: I take back what I said, yes I agree more with that
2017-12-17T21:26:21Z aeth: Too many example directories aren't commented, though, because the author thinks they're self-documenting.
2017-12-17T21:26:31Z aeth: Examples are the one case where you want to be as verbose as possible in comments imo
2017-12-17T21:26:35Z shka: someday i will be smart enough to write largeish system without instant urge to scrap everything and start all over again :P
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2017-12-17T21:26:38Z jmercouris: I like the term "self-documenting" that's some good irony right there
2017-12-17T21:26:51Z aeth: Examples should be commented heavily just in case the reader looks nowhere else
2017-12-17T21:26:59Z jmercouris: shka: Nobody is ever that smart, writing a large system involves constant incremental refactoring
2017-12-17T21:27:14Z shka: jmercouris: JUST LET ME BELIEVE!
2017-12-17T21:27:21Z jmercouris: Nobody can make a grand plan for a large piece of software in their heads, in the 90s, big fad of so-called "architects", that didn't pan out so well
2017-12-17T21:27:44Z aeth: You can write a large system, in pieces, without any major refactorings or mistakes if you pick something very well defined, e.g. if you wanted to write your own emacs.
2017-12-17T21:27:53Z jmercouris: Especially because you'd have to nail down the business requirements before you even started programming- which of course will change throughout the course of programming
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2017-12-17T21:28:28Z jmercouris: You might be able to, if your task was very well defined beforehand, but that's so rare
2017-12-17T21:28:31Z TMA: jmercouris: writing a large system involves mainly code duplication (you cannot modify the code, because you do not know which other parts depend on the quirks/bugs contained therein)
2017-12-17T21:29:09Z jmercouris: TMA: Among other things, yeah
2017-12-17T21:29:35Z jmercouris: basically you feel as if you cannot trust any of the existing API (particularly in "legacy" systems)
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2017-12-17T21:30:27Z aeth: all systems are legacy systems except the ones we're writing right now
2017-12-17T21:30:39Z jmercouris: shka: I've decided to try a blocking design btw, I think I will spawn a new thread every time minibuffer input is requested
2017-12-17T21:30:43Z TMA: every system becomes a "legacy" system the next day after it's installed
2017-12-17T21:31:37Z jmercouris: I associate the word "legacy" with "unmaintained" a similarly nebulous term, frequently of debate on this channel :D
2017-12-17T21:31:56Z jmercouris: I'm always imagining some crufty cobol code mixed with perl on some IBM mainframe that some poor developer has to maintain lol
2017-12-17T21:32:19Z aeth: jmercouris: Write a perl->CL compiler!
2017-12-17T21:32:41Z jmercouris: and then on top of that the "front-end" team, has setup a REACT NATIVE application after they rewrote the meteor one, and now they are moving to JS ES6... etc
2017-12-17T21:33:07Z jmercouris: aeth: I luckily don't have this problem, but if I did, I might look at a way to make perl and cl interop lol
2017-12-17T21:33:17Z fourier: i cant believe the necessity of quality documentation is even a topic of discussion
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2017-12-17T21:34:00Z jmercouris: fourier: It's not that there isn't a consensus, it's just a cathartic release, personally it doesn't bother me at all, I prefer the channel to be a little active
2017-12-17T21:34:14Z fourier: for example i never used cells and will never use just because its a) lacks of documentation b) no active community
2017-12-17T21:34:57Z fourier: even if it does the same thing as rxjava does, i have no way to find it out without spending a couple of days digging into its internals.
2017-12-17T21:35:58Z _death: there is a cells tutorial
2017-12-17T21:36:16Z _death: and you shouldn't be afraid of source code :)
2017-12-17T21:36:20Z fourier: on the other side, series, even if it doesnt help in this sense, have 2 papers describing it and a chapter in CLTLv2
2017-12-17T21:36:47Z fourier: if the authers didnt bother with the doc i assume the quality of the source code as well
2017-12-17T21:37:20Z fourier: why the hell you will write explanations and a good design if you can just hack some shit together and live with it ?
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2017-12-17T21:38:10Z fourier: meaning if you dont bother about potential users why should you bother about someone reading your code.
2017-12-17T21:38:21Z _death: on the flip side, writing documentation stabilizes design, even if it's bad
2017-12-17T21:39:07Z fourier: sure but the job is not done if there is no documentation. writing it is a part of getting things done.
2017-12-17T21:39:26Z fourier: otherwise "not stabilized designt
2017-12-17T21:39:43Z fourier: " is not something to be used by other people anyway
2017-12-17T21:40:00Z _death: well, I think Tilton wrote it for his own use
2017-12-17T21:40:09Z aeth: _death: no, writing documentation doesn't stabilize the design. The design can change heavily, and paragraphs can then be completely wrong
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2017-12-17T21:41:43Z _death: aeth: right.. it was more about my attitude towards documentation (and tests..) rather than a general remark on how things are
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2017-12-17T21:42:51Z fourier: thats why it is not widely used. just hacked away. documentation page on tilton-technology.com is 404, and the project is dead when its author lost interest.
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2017-12-17T21:43:36Z _death: fourier: sure.. many projects are like that.. doesn't mean they're useless for everyone
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2017-12-17T21:43:58Z fourier: compare it with http://reactivex.io/
2017-12-17T21:44:19Z jmercouris: Lots of code doesn't need an active community
2017-12-17T21:44:33Z jmercouris: for example, many testing libs do not need to be updated/active
2017-12-17T21:44:35Z fourier: sure there are someone who had started to use it before.
2017-12-17T21:44:38Z jmercouris: it wouldn't make them better or worst
2017-12-17T21:44:45Z jmercouris: s/worst/worse
2017-12-17T21:44:47Z _death: fourier: don't see any CL library there
2017-12-17T21:44:48Z whoman: ^_^
2017-12-17T21:44:58Z fourier: _death: exactly :)
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2017-12-17T21:45:50Z fourier: jmercouris: but they better to be active? i reported a bug bothering me to cl-prove and didnt get any attention, so i just dont use this particular part of functionality
2017-12-17T21:46:35Z fourier: so if things like this continue i'll roll on my own library, fragmenting community even more
2017-12-17T21:46:48Z Shinmera: Or just use Parachute :^) https://shinmera.github.io/parachute/
2017-12-17T21:47:15Z fourier: not one more :)))
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2017-12-17T21:48:02Z Shinmera: I'd like to say that Parachute has a much more justifiable reason to exist than a lot of the others out there
2017-12-17T21:48:10Z jmercouris: Shinmera: What's the reason?
2017-12-17T21:48:44Z fourier: i guess main reason is because Shinmera is an active developer and will probably fix the bugs ;)
2017-12-17T21:48:49Z Shinmera: It's intended to be extensible and all-encompassing.
2017-12-17T21:49:10Z Shinmera: Part of the proof of that is that it has compatibility layers for the syntax and behaviour of other testing frameworks
2017-12-17T21:49:24Z whoman: o jeez abstract that away much, everythings intended extensible and all-encompassing =P
2017-12-17T21:49:27Z jmercouris: A meta testing framework if you will
2017-12-17T21:49:38Z whoman o
2017-12-17T21:49:50Z jmercouris: A framework that can leverage other frameworks
2017-12-17T21:49:59Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Eh, it's more that it just has a protocol for how tests are defined and executed.
2017-12-17T21:50:01Z _death: fourier: personally I took all quicklisp projects I have that have a git repo and cloned them into a third-party directory.. every once in a while I fetch all and review the new commits.. when something isn't right, I just patch it.. so it works for me.. the extra work w/ pull requests and discussion etc. is a different matter with differnet priority
2017-12-17T21:50:05Z jmercouris: interesting
2017-12-17T21:50:20Z jmercouris: I was thinking about using Parachute, but I'm a long way from actually writing tests...
2017-12-17T21:50:42Z whoman: _death, your own projects or in general? why ?
2017-12-17T21:51:10Z jmercouris: I wish that there wre "lisp community owned" projects
2017-12-17T21:51:14Z fourier: _death: maybe you have a full-time lisp job? when having family/kids and having 1-2 hours every other day for some coding its not really a viable option
2017-12-17T21:51:15Z jmercouris: so that we didn't have to rely on maintainers
2017-12-17T21:51:22Z Shinmera: jmercouris: There is no lisp community, so
2017-12-17T21:51:30Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Yes there is
2017-12-17T21:51:37Z jmercouris: What are the people on this channel?
2017-12-17T21:51:39Z _death: whoman: my own projects already live in local-projects, talking about everything else.. why? so that my threshold for patching 3rd party code is basically zero
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2017-12-17T21:52:00Z jmercouris: So every popular quicklisp repo could have a "Lisp community version" which can pull upstream from the official version and accept patches from others
2017-12-17T21:52:06Z jmercouris: maybe maintainers wouldn't like to lose control though
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2017-12-17T21:53:04Z aeth: There are several Lisp community-run groups. I immediately can think of https://github.com/sharplispers/ and https://github.com/lispgames/
2017-12-17T21:53:07Z fourier: I typically just use the stuff from quicklisp, and if have a problem trying to search on github for this project, fork it and suggest a fix. that is why I even reported a feature request to Xach so I can get the source repository url straight away from repl without getting to quickdocs etc.
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2017-12-17T21:53:33Z _death: fourier: right, it works for me..
2017-12-17T21:53:43Z Shinmera: aeth: sharplispers is run by a select few lispers, and lispgames is run by the lisp games channel. Neither are run by "the lisp community."
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2017-12-17T21:54:33Z jmercouris: Is anyone willing to join a Lisp community to fork and maintain orphaned projects? If so, I would volunteer in starting the org and adding members/promoting it etc
2017-12-17T21:54:46Z whoman: _death, ohh, interesting =) going to keep that strategy in mind
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2017-12-17T21:54:53Z fourier: I think people already do it with stuff like zlib etc
2017-12-17T21:55:13Z fourier: are they sharplispers? dont remember
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2017-12-17T21:56:32Z whoman: i am down for that, but hmm
2017-12-17T21:57:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, there is a fairly complete document about cells
2017-12-17T21:57:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/stefano/cells-doc/tree/master
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2017-12-17T21:57:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a pain to find, but it's fairly complete
2017-12-17T21:58:13Z jmercouris: whoman: What's your name on github?
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2017-12-17T21:59:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you look at the cliki page for cells, that documentation is linked
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2017-12-17T22:02:31Z fourier: ok i see
2017-12-17T22:03:01Z whoman: jmercouris, used to be humasect, lost password, now is quakerquickoats
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2017-12-17T22:06:28Z Shinmera: jmercouris: Please take over all my projects now, tia
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2017-12-17T22:26:40Z hobbit|o746: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DID YOU GUYS KNOW TODAY WAS NIGGERS DAY?? SAY HI TO YOUR FAVORITY NIGGER IN #FREENODE!! quicktalkeh676te.onionufpsgdenhk: Intensity pjb mepian turkja attila_lendvai fikka pseudonymous Karl_Dscc damke smurfrobot AntiSpamMeta lagagain red-dot Danishman malcom2073 groovy2shoes jmercouris EvW1 peccu3 Kevslinger Jesin megalography dliot Amplituhedron te
2017-12-17T22:26:40Z hobbit|o746: ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DID YOU GUYS KNOW TODAY WAS NIGGERS DAY?? SAY HI TO YOUR FAVORITY NIGGER IN #FREENODE!! quicktalkeh676te.onionxayskabq: fikka rotty tom34 red-dot attila_lendvai orivej atgreen Bike wigust_ SuperJen damke rpg eudoxia milanj Intensity jmercouris Kevslinger pseudonymous terpri marvin3 josema pmetzger Karl_Dscc Amplituhedron mepian
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2017-12-17T22:31:01Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Lol
2017-12-17T22:31:38Z jmercouris: I hope this spam isn't getting persisted to the IRC Log
2017-12-17T22:31:53Z Shinmera: It is
2017-12-17T22:32:00Z impulse quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2017-12-17T22:32:12Z jmercouris: This kind of thing should be wipable, I don't think this is good content to save
2017-12-17T22:32:20Z pmetzger: Meh, it's obviously spam.
2017-12-17T22:32:27Z Shinmera: I'm fine with it being impartial to what's on the log.
2017-12-17T22:32:40Z pmetzger: The more interesting question is chasing them down and telling the 12 year old's mom what he's been doing online.
2017-12-17T22:32:46Z jmercouris: It is, but it somehow makes my computer feel dirty even having it on my screen
2017-12-17T22:33:02Z Shinmera: There's /clear if you're that sensitive to words
2017-12-17T22:33:25Z pmetzger: isn't that client dependent?
2017-12-17T22:33:33Z Cthulhux` wrote an adiirc/mirc script that can filter lines with certain words 
2017-12-17T22:33:46Z Cthulhux`: (but i seriously wonder if so many people are THAT sensitive)
2017-12-17T22:33:49Z Shinmera: pmetzger: Pretty much every client has a clear command
2017-12-17T22:34:03Z pmetzger: what's the syntax?
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2017-12-17T22:40:00Z jmercouris: whoman: If I make the group, I'll add you
2017-12-17T22:40:33Z whoman: alright thank you :) i hope to have my project(s) cleaned up soon
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2017-12-17T22:41:19Z jmercouris: Lol, that's not the idea I had in mind, it's not to drop off your own projects, I thought we could pick up projects which aren't responding to pull requests etc, and accept/patch them etc
2017-12-17T22:41:33Z jmercouris: someone to review and keep things up to date
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2017-12-17T22:44:43Z _death: (mapc #'jmercouris (sort (remove-if #'maintainedp projects) #'> :key #'num-transitive-dependents))
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2017-12-17T22:48:06Z jmercouris: (defun jmercouris () ;; code for spin lock)
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2017-12-17T22:49:18Z Shinmera: (loop) woulda been shorter
2017-12-17T22:51:17Z lagagain: What's the code want to do ? Use at this chatroom ?
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2017-12-17T22:52:51Z _death: it just suggests an order for considering projects
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2017-12-17T22:54:18Z jmercouris: Shinmera: I know, but spin-lock is funnier, it won't release to any other thread
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2017-12-17T22:56:49Z whoman: jmercouris, sorry i know =) just speaking out loud to remind myself under the pressure of peers
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2017-12-17T23:00:40Z rpg: fourier: ABCL is good for lightweight JVM scripting, but it's too inefficient for use as one's main implementation.
2017-12-17T23:00:57Z rpg: fiddlerwoaroof: AFAIK jfli is unmaintained and bitrotted
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2017-12-17T23:01:33Z rpg has a lot of catching up to do.
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2017-12-17T23:12:54Z earl-ducaine: Lispologists!  q: what are the various opinions on the conventional usage of -p, e.g. blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-p
2017-12-17T23:12:55Z earl-ducaine: *said in the voice of rhiana*
2017-12-17T23:12:59Z earl-ducaine: Should it only be a function, or is it acceptable to use as the name of t/nil variable?
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2017-12-17T23:14:26Z earl-ducaine: I would have thought the former (only as a function, maybe macro), but I've seen many instance of it being used as variable.
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2017-12-17T23:18:05Z fourier: rpg: then lw is a good option, the integration with jvm is real good (for example I was able to use fantastic java joda datetime library from CL in LW)
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2017-12-17T23:19:26Z rpg: fourier: the integration in Allegro is also good.  But, to be honest, integration with the JVM is always going to be nasty -- because it's a virtual machine, and a lisp image is almost a VM itself, the easiest way to integrate is some form of remote procedure call, which is very heavyweight.  I think that's more Java's fault than anyone else's.  It's pretty much the same for .NET
2017-12-17T23:19:39Z _death: earl-ducaine: the P is for predicate.. a boolean variable is not a predicate
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2017-12-17T23:22:03Z earl-ducaine: _death: I'm showing my appalling ignorance... But I've never understood what was 'predicat' about how -p is used. (i.e. how it would be realated to the verb object part of an english sence, the only usage of the word i'm familiar with.)
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2017-12-17T23:22:45Z earl-ducaine: So, perhaps I should clarify my question: how in practice do you use it, or expect it to be used.
2017-12-17T23:23:23Z fourier: rpg: yep but even it is bulky it works, and works pretty well. at least it is integration! Its really sad though what abcl doesn't get much traction, its the reason to choose clojure on jvm as a jvm-compatible lisp. Also there is not much information on how to embed abcl into the java developer's workflow, like ant/maven/gradle integration so I can quickly drop it as a dependency to my say Android project to use it for code 
2017-12-17T23:23:30Z _death: earl-ducaine: it comes from formal logic, meaning a function that maps to a boolean
2017-12-17T23:24:28Z rpg: fourier: I used it quite successfully as a way to explore and then extend a very large Java system.  But I did end up taking the code originally written and tested in ABCL and then translating it into Java with Eclipse.
2017-12-17T23:25:26Z fourier: oh man. why so ?
2017-12-17T23:25:38Z _death: earl-ducaine: you could say the boolean variable is a way to write a nullary function, but I don't see it as good style
2017-12-17T23:28:09Z fourier: also when the #lisp will migrate to mattermost or something modern ? :)
2017-12-17T23:30:15Z earl-ducaine: _death: Thanks.  Reading the wikipedia article on logical predicates (I didn't know, though I should have guessed) that's what they were named from, it seems that both interpretation i.e. a function or variable *could* be justified, at least for a simpleton such as myself.
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2017-12-17T23:30:24Z earl-ducaine: But your preference is noted.
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2017-12-17T23:40:55Z Fare: rpg: I sent another MR on gitlab, for source-location for define-package on SBCL
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2017-12-17T23:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: rpg: hmm, it looked to me like it was semi-maintained, on ccl at least
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2017-12-17T23:54:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll try to revive it: it's interface looks nice
2017-12-17T23:54:35Z rpg: fiddlerwoaroof: That would be awesome!
2017-12-17T23:56:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, integrating ABCL in a java project is pretty straightforward: I spent an hour or so playing around with it, and it wasn't too difficult to figure out how to embed it in a java application.
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2017-12-17T23:57:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll dig my sample out of my work laptop sometime.
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2017-12-18T00:02:13Z dim: ah, abcl, sometimes I'd like to produce a pgloader.jar for the JVM, and in that version use the JDBC drivers
2017-12-18T00:04:32Z Fare: fiddlerwoaroof, a more productive Lisp on the JVM is #clojure.
2017-12-18T00:05:03Z Fare: unless you specifically have a body of CL code to leverage there
2017-12-18T00:05:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I use clojure occasionally
2017-12-18T00:05:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like some of the language decisions, though
2017-12-18T00:05:50Z Fare: yeah, it has great stuff, and more questionable stuff.
2017-12-18T00:06:29Z Fare: Then again, there are JVM backends for Gambit and other well-maintained lisps.
2017-12-18T00:06:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: The company I work for has a significant amount of clojure code, although I'm not on one of the teams that works with it
2017-12-18T00:09:38Z rpg: IIRC there's a Scheme that is designed especially to be compiled into a Java program as an extension language.  Is that maybe Kawa?
2017-12-18T00:09:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-12-18T00:09:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But scheme isn't CL
2017-12-18T00:12:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Among other things, I find Lisp-1s to be really annoying
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2017-12-18T00:14:16Z rpg: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm with you: that's why I used ABCL for my project.
2017-12-18T00:15:44Z aeth: Well, the choice is to either have a lisp-2 and require (funcall #'foo 42) which makes higher order functions less elegant or have a list-1 with tons of name collisions and make naming things less elegant (e.g. (define (foo l1st) ...) or (define (foo lst) ...) or (define (foo l) ...) when you can just (defun foo (list) ...) in CL)
2017-12-18T00:15:58Z marvin3: fiddlerwoaroof why?
2017-12-18T00:16:01Z aeth: s/list-1/lisp-1/
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2017-12-18T00:16:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: marvin3: I don't like having to pick a name for variables/arguments based on whether or not there is already a function by the same name
2017-12-18T00:17:31Z marvin3: unless it is a function you actually use in that scope you can just shadow it with a variable name. so for less commonly used functions it isn't an issue
2017-12-18T00:18:03Z aeth: One possible alternative would be to break the language up into smaller packages, instead of having one big (:use :cl) so you don't have a name conflict
2017-12-18T00:18:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: For me, LIST is the most common instance of this
2017-12-18T00:18:29Z _death: I think this post presents some good arguments: https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/data-hygiene.txt
2017-12-18T00:18:41Z aeth: And yeah the problem mostly shows up with list in Scheme, especially since you use lists in Scheme more than in CL ime
2017-12-18T00:18:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, when I used to write python all the time, I'd frequently have bugs where I had accidentally shadowed a built-in function and then attempted to call it
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2017-12-18T00:20:53Z aeth: Python isn't a good langauge for avoiding bugs.
2017-12-18T00:21:27Z aeth: It doesn't help that idiomatic Python is duck typing, too.
2017-12-18T00:21:37Z rpg: I could really use a common lisp with a type-checker, TBH.  Wouldn't have to be brilliant, but would save me a lot of stupid bug time.
2017-12-18T00:22:13Z aeth: I use type declarations all of the time. Unfortunately, semantically, it won't type check on all implementations and in some implementations it will just type assume. On SBCL, it probably type assumes with (safety 0) but never do that.
2017-12-18T00:22:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are versions of shen written in CL
2017-12-18T00:22:32Z aeth: But at least type declarations help me in SBCL, where I develop
2017-12-18T00:22:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have no idea what cl<->shen interop is like
2017-12-18T00:23:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'd love to have a way to write blocks of code with ML-style type inference that seamlessly interoperate with CL
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2017-12-18T00:23:23Z aeth: The problem with CL, or at least SBCL, is that functions (except when inlined) are basically barriers where all type information is lost unless you declare them all over again, for the most part. (or use the, which is very similar to declaring)
2017-12-18T00:23:47Z aeth: I would love to have full program type checking, that reruns if I change a function's signature in the REPL
2017-12-18T00:24:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are some really nice things in Haskell (e.g. return-type polymorphism) that would be nice to use in CL
2017-12-18T00:24:29Z aeth: I'm not even sure that full program type check warnings and type inference is impossible in CL. Just... track the functions.
2017-12-18T00:24:41Z aeth: Some more runtime overhead, but you kill most bugs
2017-12-18T00:25:01Z rpg: I was just reading an article about Instagram open sourcing some code that auto-generates type declarations from Python.  I was wondering if something like that could be done for CL.  But it actually depends on your code *running*, and if my code runs, then typically I don't have such bugs.
2017-12-18T00:25:08Z aeth: The CL problem is that (foo 42) might return a fixnum now, but it could be redefined in 10 seconds to return a single-float. Or a list.
2017-12-18T00:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are examples of that
2017-12-18T00:25:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: ACL2, for example, does fancy type checking on a subset of common lisp
2017-12-18T00:26:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, you have to treat everything that gets checked as a single compilation unit
2017-12-18T00:26:13Z rpg: Fare: I'm getting the XMLS release fixed up a bit, but I saw your MR.  I am running the ASDF tests now.  If they pass, I will merge.
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2017-12-18T00:27:02Z rpg: aeth: My problem is that I like the SBCL compiler, but I like the ACL debugger.
2017-12-18T00:27:05Z aeth: What stops the implementation from rechecking if a function gets recompiled? It would just need to check users of #'foo when #'foo is recompiled, and then rerun those checks. Obviously, you wouldn't want that in the final program, but it could help before then.
2017-12-18T00:27:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I guess you could do that
2017-12-18T00:27:40Z aeth: I mean, SBCL already can use 100-200 MB, so what's another 100 MB in the era of 8+ GB?
2017-12-18T00:27:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it would mean that you couldn't arbitrarily redefine #'foo
2017-12-18T00:28:02Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: redefine #'foo, the data structure that tracks users of foo is checked, the type signature is found to be incompatible, warning happens
2017-12-18T00:28:26Z aeth: I guess one problem is that you wouldn't be able to use this for type inference in the final program to improve performance (e.g. automatically telling map which sequence it's working on)
2017-12-18T00:28:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, nice type systems allow propagating all sorts of information that makes recompiling parts of the program less useful
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2017-12-18T00:29:28Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: There are some parts of a program where treating every function as a T-returning black box makes sense. And then there are some, particularly in a hot loop, where you probably don't want that behavior.
2017-12-18T00:29:55Z aeth: And at the moment you're probably going to fill that part with the or declare to give type information, anyway.
2017-12-18T00:30:16Z aeth: Type information that could possibly be inferred if functions weren't the boundary for type inference
2017-12-18T00:30:53Z aeth: Types have two uses: catching bugs and performance. Everyone seems to focus on the first use these days.
2017-12-18T00:30:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: To me, the correctness-checking parts are the least interesting parts of a type system
2017-12-18T00:31:18Z aeth: If the compiler knows the types of everything, it can do magical optimizations to really make things run fast
2017-12-18T00:33:34Z aeth: Inferring immutability is probably afaik one of the most important things about a type.
2017-12-18T00:34:24Z _death: to me, types and type systems are something that's overblown to the point of being more harmful than useful
2017-12-18T00:36:00Z aeth: To me, I want software where everything that can be done before runtime is done before runtime. Types are helpful there. As are Lisp-style macros. And especially Lisp-style macros that know the type of things.
2017-12-18T00:36:17Z _death: today's fascination with reminds me of hammers and nails (of type T)
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2017-12-18T00:37:00Z xenon-: _death did you have experience with more modern type systems, with type inference, etc? not the kind of types that exist in java/c++/c and friends
2017-12-18T00:37:09Z aeth: Something like this is pretty neat: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
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2017-12-18T00:38:12Z _death: xenon: sure
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2017-12-18T00:40:30Z _death: xenon: do you have experience with people who used such languages and aren't praying at that particular altar? :)
2017-12-18T00:41:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are a bunch of things I don't like about a language like Haskell, but the way you can use the type system to propagate information about your program at compile time is really cool
2017-12-18T00:41:45Z aeth: _death: It depends on what kind of problem you're solving.
2017-12-18T00:41:54Z xenon-: _death what language did you try and what was your main objection?
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2017-12-18T00:42:08Z _death: aeth: well, I am a bit of a generalist so I solve all kinds of problems :)
2017-12-18T00:42:28Z aeth: _death: If you have a long-running loop, you want all of the work done ahead of time that you can get away with. If you're using the language as a Unix script, it might not be worth the time.
2017-12-18T00:42:34Z _death: xenon: I wouldn't like to discuss it here.. it is off topic anyway
2017-12-18T00:42:41Z rpg: aeth: got to go, but one thing -- I think there are two very different purposes for type systems.  One is to help with correctness, for which you need very thorough type inference, and complex types (or, as in Java, the types don't help you get correctness).  The other is type information to allow the compiler to do magical things. It's not clear to me that there's a type system that gives you both.
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2017-12-18T00:44:13Z aeth: rpg: Well, you give the behavior you want, the compiler (or the macro with type information!) decides the fastest route it knows that produces equivalent results. So you want both a magical compiler and correctness.
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2017-12-18T00:46:45Z aeth: I guess you can have a type system that provides one and not both
2017-12-18T00:47:30Z aeth: In SBCL, what limited type information you can give provdies both afaik. e.g. disassemble something with and without type declarations, especially if it's dealing with numbers or sequences.
2017-12-18T00:48:48Z _death: apropos, I thought Guy Steele made a good joke when he asked about those formalisms type theorists like so much, which are expressed in first-order logic, which is untyped..
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2017-12-18T00:49:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: With a haskell-style type inference, you wouldn't need the result-type argument of map, but (aref (map #'+1 '(1 2 3)) 0) and (car (map #'+1 #(1 2 3))) would both work
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2017-12-18T00:49:54Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: you need the result type in CL because you can say (map 'list #'+ 'some-vector 'another-vector)
2017-12-18T00:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, in haskell the type system would realize that #'aref takes a vector and automatically pick the right implementation of map
2017-12-18T00:51:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: (e.g. the one that returns a vector)
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2017-12-18T00:51:44Z caffe: o/
2017-12-18T00:51:51Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: But aref is generic over all arrays. The compiler will know you want a 1D array, and nothing more. Do you want a T array or an array of the most specific type it can use (e.g. '(unsigned byte 8) or something) or the most general not-T type it can use (e.g. 'fixnum or something)?
2017-12-18T00:52:06Z aeth: Although, if it's discarded right away, I guess it doesn't matter
2017-12-18T00:52:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory, it could pick svref when appropriate
2017-12-18T00:52:21Z aeth: But you could think up an example where you both do the aref and then e.g. return the array too
2017-12-18T00:52:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: The idea is that, since the compiler knows what type your result is supposed to have, it can use that information to do generic function-like dispatch, at compile time
2017-12-18T00:54:04Z marvin3: haskell does the same thing with literals. 1 is of Num a => a type, which can, depending on a context, be Int, Integer, Double, or any other type that implements Num
2017-12-18T00:54:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is why I want to have a little common lisp DSL that does haskell-style type checking
2017-12-18T00:54:38Z _death: meanwhile, if I want fast code I can generate assembly in Lisp, or write opencl code, or write a C module or whatever..
2017-12-18T00:54:42Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I think you can do that in CL, if the macro system knows the type information and you write the right macro. Iirc, type information in macros was proposed but rejected.
2017-12-18T00:54:49Z caffe: i'm having a bit of a stumper regarding sb-ext:run-program... i can get it to run one-liners, but despite :input *standard-input* :output *standard-output*, i can't get it working for anything that has interactive prompts
2017-12-18T00:55:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: yeah, it's perfectly possible to write a macro that embeds such a dsl
2017-12-18T00:55:51Z aeth: _death: Ideally, you don't want to directly write assembly, you want to have a conversation with the compiler to try to produce the correct (disassemble #'foo) result automatically. Then it stays portable, but slow, in other circumstances and you probably save effort anyway.
2017-12-18T00:55:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a friend who did something like that in Racket: https://github.com/lexi-lambda/hackett
2017-12-18T00:56:55Z _death: aeth: see, I care for interface portability, not implementation portability
2017-12-18T00:57:13Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I think (I haven't had the time to look into it) you can do something with this library: https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2017-12-18T00:57:41Z aeth: Unfortunately, it only supports SBCL, CCL, and CMUCL. If ECL supported the ncessary features, too, that would make a huge difference.
2017-12-18T00:58:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think the common lisp type system is too powerful for good type inference :)
2017-12-18T00:58:13Z aeth: _death: A compiler with enough information will generate better assembly than you can write by hand. The problem is when the compiler doesn't have enough information.
2017-12-18T00:58:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: My goal would be to support a useful subset of the type system
2017-12-18T00:58:28Z _death: aeth: sorry, that's wrong
2017-12-18T00:58:41Z aeth: _death: Then you must be a good assembly programmer.
2017-12-18T00:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: compilers can't actually use vector instructions very well, as I understand
2017-12-18T00:58:56Z _death: aeth: it's the myth of the sufficiently-smart compiler
2017-12-18T00:59:36Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I suspect that that's a problem with C being high-level PDP-7 assembly and not really matching modern hardware too well.
2017-12-18T01:00:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think auto-vectorization, like auto-parallelization is a surprisingly hard problem
2017-12-18T01:00:35Z aeth: _death: A compiler can only work with what it's given.
2017-12-18T01:00:45Z _death: aeth: sometimes it's enough just to be able to generate the instructions you need for the particular case..
2017-12-18T01:01:18Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: But in something like Lisp, you don't need auto-vectorization, you can make anything look like it was a built-in part of the language. Auto-vectorization is afaik more like C programmers wanting to stick to their increasingly-outdated for loops.
2017-12-18T01:01:55Z _death: aeth: you have all the control you need then, and an assembler is much faster than an optimizing compiler as well
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2017-12-18T01:02:21Z aeth: Make a language where the problem isn't hard, rather than trying to make C-style semantics do something totally alien to the PDP-7 it was designed for.
2017-12-18T01:04:34Z Xach: caffe: hey! did you have any luck?
2017-12-18T01:06:09Z caffe: not yet, no
2017-12-18T01:08:01Z Xach: caffe: i have had some luck by using a pty
2017-12-18T01:08:16Z Xach: caffe: out of curiosity, what interactive program are you trying to run?
2017-12-18T01:08:19Z caffe: ahh, good idea..
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2017-12-18T01:08:35Z caffe: not any one in particular... mostly a set of bash scripts that prompt for a few lines of input and exit
2017-12-18T01:09:11Z Xach: I'm actually thinking of making something expect-like for sbcl's run-program pty stuff.
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2017-12-18T01:09:29Z Xach: I love running external programs to save time and effort.
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2017-12-18T01:09:42Z caffe: they work similar in fashion to adduser scripts, etc
2017-12-18T01:11:21Z Xach would often rather run an external program than work out C bindings
2017-12-18T01:11:28Z _death: caffe: maybe it's an issue of buffering?
2017-12-18T01:11:41Z caffe: so i need to find a way to identify what pty the user is on, i'm guessing?
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2017-12-18T01:12:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: caffe: no, you need to open a pty and start the interactive program in it
2017-12-18T01:12:06Z caffe: ah, okay.
2017-12-18T01:12:08Z Xach: caffe: no, just use the :pty argument to run-program and you will have a lot lower-level control over input and output of the process
2017-12-18T01:12:20Z Xach: No, sb-ext:run-program shields you from direct pty management.
2017-12-18T01:12:25Z caffe: now here's the tricky part... can this be done in clim-listener?
2017-12-18T01:12:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-12-18T01:13:06Z caffe: awesome, i'll give that a try
2017-12-18T01:13:07Z pjb: type /ignore bubbaw574
2017-12-18T01:13:11Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: you don't need to directly open a pty, run-program does it on your behalf.
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2017-12-18T01:15:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I just meant to say that you don't need to get the user's pty, you just start your own---implicitly or explicitly
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2017-12-18T01:23:34Z caffe: is it just :pty, or do i need an argument/variable after that?
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2017-12-18T01:29:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: caffe: the documentation says "T nil or a stream"
2017-12-18T01:29:39Z caffe: ah, thank you.. can you refer me to this doc?
2017-12-18T01:30:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the docstring
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2017-12-18T01:31:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/f685c4dacde06c9a2bcb2be5f24eca987d4f4188/src/code/run-program.lisp#L708
2017-12-18T01:31:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also available here: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs
2017-12-18T01:33:12Z caffe: thank you :>
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2017-12-18T01:37:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know if lispworks automatically adds (:use :cl) to a defpackage without any (:use...) clause)
2017-12-18T01:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
2017-12-18T01:38:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: (don't have my laptop with lispworks handy)
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2017-12-18T01:41:19Z caffe: ugh, still not having luck with this
2017-12-18T01:42:41Z caffe: (run-program "/bin/program" '() :input *standard-input* :output *standard-output*) gets the farthest, but fails at the first interactive prompt of the program being run
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2017-12-18T01:43:06Z malice: caffe: any interactive program?
2017-12-18T01:43:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you trying to write a terminal caffe?
2017-12-18T01:43:22Z caffe: (run-program "/bin/program" '() :pty t) yields no output at all
2017-12-18T01:43:42Z caffe: as does :pty :stream
2017-12-18T01:43:53Z caffe: i'm not trying to write a terminal, no
2017-12-18T01:45:23Z caffe: malice: yes, any
2017-12-18T01:45:40Z malice: caffe: how are you calling the program?
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2017-12-18T01:46:01Z caffe: i just shared that
2017-12-18T01:46:04Z malice: sorry
2017-12-18T01:46:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can sort of reproduce this
2017-12-18T01:46:36Z malice: ah, clim-listener?
2017-12-18T01:46:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (run-program "/usr/bin/python" '() :pty *terminal-io*)
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2017-12-18T01:46:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Even in the terminal, it shows the output, but doesn't really respond to input
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2017-12-18T01:47:39Z malice: well, for me, if working with sbcl, if I create a code.lisp (run-program "/bin/echo" nil) and then run it like "sbcl --load code.lisp" - it will work
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2017-12-18T01:47:50Z caffe: clim listener or sbcl in a terminal
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2017-12-18T01:48:00Z malice: does this work for you?
2017-12-18T01:48:07Z malice: for clim - I remember trying to debug something in there with *standard-input* and *standard-output*, and it looked like they were changed somehow
2017-12-18T01:48:37Z malice: so e.g. #'print wouldn't print anything to standard-output, at least with slime, but slime changes *standard-output* too
2017-12-18T01:48:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: CLIM-LISTENER probably rebinds them to the listener pane
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2017-12-18T01:49:19Z malice: I mean, if the simple "echo" program works for you in SBCL then other programs should work too
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2017-12-18T01:50:23Z caffe: echo works, but read doesn't seem to
2017-12-18T01:50:44Z malice: caffe: read as in CL's function?
2017-12-18T01:50:50Z malice: could you share the code?
2017-12-18T01:51:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, input doesn't seem to work
2017-12-18T01:51:42Z caffe: no, as in when a bash script i'm trying to execute (or just read itself) just goes nowhere. it doesn't respond to input
2017-12-18T01:52:00Z caffe: codewise, that's it... just that one line
2017-12-18T01:55:30Z caffe: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/python" '() :pty *terminal-io*)
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2017-12-18T01:56:05Z caffe: that's where we're at now
2017-12-18T01:59:55Z malice: well, if I do (run-program "/usr/bin/python" nil :input t :output t) in my terminal, it opens Python interpreter just fine
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2017-12-18T02:00:16Z malice: and I can run Python there just like in normal terminal
2017-12-18T02:00:22Z malice: i.e. interactive prompt works
2017-12-18T02:00:30Z malice: I understand it's not the case for you
2017-12-18T02:00:31Z malice: ?
2017-12-18T02:00:40Z caffe: ahh, let me try
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2017-12-18T02:00:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, that works
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2017-12-18T02:01:44Z malice: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Support-For-Unix
2017-12-18T02:01:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: but this doesn't: sbcl --eval '(run-program "/usr/bin/python" '"'"'() :input *standard-output* :output *standard-input*)'
2017-12-18T02:02:20Z malice: fiddlerwoaroof: aren't input and output switched?
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2017-12-18T02:02:36Z caffe: ahhh, there we go!
2017-12-18T02:02:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ugh, I meant to copy the one where they were opposite
2017-12-18T02:02:48Z malice: caffe: finally works? :)
2017-12-18T02:02:52Z caffe: thanks, those were the missing pieces
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2017-12-18T02:03:01Z malice: Great! Glad you made it
2017-12-18T02:03:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried switching them in case I was thinking about the file handles wrong
2017-12-18T02:03:05Z caffe: nad thank you for linking that doc :)
2017-12-18T02:03:08Z caffe: and*
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2017-12-18T02:03:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: This doesn't work: sbcl --eval '(run-program "/usr/bin/python" '"'"'() :input *standard-input* :output *standard-output*)'
2017-12-18T02:03:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess t does some magic
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2017-12-18T02:03:49Z malice: np
2017-12-18T02:04:15Z malice: fiddlerwoaroof: you can use "nil" or just () instead of this quoting abomination
2017-12-18T02:04:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-12-18T02:04:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do this habitually when using the shell, can't help it :)
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2017-12-18T02:05:13Z caffe: now, one more question... is there a way to do this and have it return to sbcl's prompt upon exiting?
2017-12-18T02:05:32Z caffe: instead of exiting sbcl
2017-12-18T02:06:00Z malice: Hmm.
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2017-12-18T02:06:16Z malice: If I run the bin/python example and then call quit() in Python, it returns to REPL just fine
2017-12-18T02:06:22Z malice: maybe you aren't in a loop or something?
2017-12-18T02:06:40Z malice: fiddlerwoaroof: this *might* have something to do with "If t, the standard output for the current process is inherited." bit (I'm guessing though)
2017-12-18T02:06:49Z caffe: i just started sbcl from the shell
2017-12-18T02:07:02Z caffe: then ran the command, exited the program launched, and got dumped back to bash
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2017-12-18T02:08:15Z caffe: i'll try it in the listener and see what happens
2017-12-18T02:08:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think yeah, there is some magic going on in the source
2017-12-18T02:08:48Z caffe: ah. it started the application in my toplevel
2017-12-18T02:09:05Z caffe: and yeah, kicks me out after exiting that application
2017-12-18T02:10:30Z malice: caffe: then I don't really know what to do. (run-program "usr/bin/python" nil :input t :output t) pasted into SBCL after running "sbcl" command
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2017-12-18T02:10:42Z malice: and then running "quit()" sends me back to CL's REPL just fine
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2017-12-18T02:11:30Z caffe: ahh, caught it
2017-12-18T02:11:37Z caffe: it's because i'm using '() instead of nil
2017-12-18T02:13:17Z malice: :D
2017-12-18T02:13:21Z malice: Told you!
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2017-12-18T02:15:57Z caffe: hm, still kicks me out
2017-12-18T02:16:25Z caffe: that has to be a different problem though
2017-12-18T02:16:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's really annoying to me that the python library cffi interferes with the lisp one in google search results
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2017-12-18T02:18:12Z caffe: yeah, that's not run-program, that's a problem with the script i'm executing
2017-12-18T02:18:26Z caffe: and not a lisp problem
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2017-12-18T02:21:51Z wigust_: fiddlerwoaroof: It's like with C and C++/#/Object.  Maybe -python will help.
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2017-12-18T04:28:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-18T04:46:14Z nydel: morning beach hope you're well
2017-12-18T04:46:39Z beach: Yes, thank you.  You too I hope.
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2017-12-18T06:59:07Z drmeister: ::notify shiho - pull clasp, cando and  the master branch of quicklisp/cl-jupyter and rebuild everything.  I fixed the python crashes when evaluating cells in Jupyter notebooks.  It was a threading problem.
2017-12-18T06:59:07Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let shiho know as soon as possible.
2017-12-18T06:59:19Z drmeister: ::notify Kevslinger -  pull clasp, cando and  the master branch of quicklisp/cl-jupyter and rebuild everything.  I fixed the python crashes when evaluating cells in Jupyter notebooks.  It was a threading problem.
2017-12-18T06:59:19Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let Kevslinger know as soon as possible.
2017-12-18T07:03:11Z beach: Do they come to #lisp?
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2017-12-18T07:32:26Z hajovonta: hello all
2017-12-18T07:35:26Z Shinmera: beach: Notes are per-server, so it doesn't matter.
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2017-12-18T07:56:47Z beach: Shinmera: Got it.
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2017-12-18T10:03:51Z beach had a crap morning, dedicated to admin chores. 
2017-12-18T10:04:19Z loke: beach: !
2017-12-18T10:04:53Z loke misread "dedicated" as "defecated"... Hmm...
2017-12-18T10:05:12Z loke: Puts another spin on a crap morning...
2017-12-18T10:05:38Z loke has been wriing some Elixir this morning.
2017-12-18T10:07:13Z beach: Dr Freud might have something to say about that misreading.
2017-12-18T10:08:32Z loke: beach: No need to invoke him. I'm not ashamed of the fact that I still find toilet umour incredibly funny.
2017-12-18T10:08:37Z loke: humour
2017-12-18T10:09:02Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2017-12-18T10:10:50Z loke: I'm also listening to Swedish metal music now: 𝅘𝅥𝅮 Strykjärn - Länsmansdjävul 𝅘𝅥𝅮
2017-12-18T10:11:06Z beach: That should be good.
2017-12-18T10:11:18Z beach: Let me see if there is anything on YouTube...
2017-12-18T10:11:42Z loke: Here's a good one from them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jBzKg1ZStc
2017-12-18T10:12:39Z beach: Thanks!
2017-12-18T10:13:35Z loke: And here's another swedish metal song, different band, different style and probably more popular, but also good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FSFIOGNYyM
2017-12-18T10:14:36Z beach: You need to let me finish listening to the first one.
2017-12-18T10:14:47Z loke: Sure :-)
2017-12-18T10:17:08Z loke: That first virdeo is so... Swedish :-)
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2017-12-18T10:18:59Z beach: Boy, band members are such good instrumentalists these days.  A few decades ago, they were mostly just bad.
2017-12-18T10:19:58Z beach: Thanks for the links!
2017-12-18T10:20:11Z beach tries to get some useful work done for the rest of the day.
2017-12-18T10:22:15Z dim: well in my experience pop music band players have always been quite good, but you would typically pay no attention to them, only to the front man
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2017-12-18T12:35:39Z Murii: Is there a function for getting a certain value at a index in a list or cons ?
2017-12-18T12:36:03Z Murii: (list 1 2 3 4)   (get list 3) -> 4
2017-12-18T12:36:10Z Murii: ?
2017-12-18T12:36:13Z jackdaniel: nth
2017-12-18T12:36:20Z Murii: thanks
2017-12-18T12:36:34Z Murii: and for length?
2017-12-18T12:36:41Z jackdaniel: if you want something what will work also on strings, go for elt
2017-12-18T12:36:46Z pjb: I would rather use elt, so you can switch easily to vectors.
2017-12-18T12:36:47Z jackdaniel: (length '(1 2 3))
2017-12-18T12:37:03Z jackdaniel: length works both on  vectors and lists
2017-12-18T12:37:10Z Murii: ok
2017-12-18T12:37:16Z pjb: (let ((s (funcall (if (zerop (random 2)) 'list 'vector) 1 2 3 4))) (elt s 2)) #| --> 3 |#
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2017-12-18T12:39:41Z pjb: Murii: the trick is to take the chapters of clhs, and to read all the section but the dictionary.  Just browse the dictionary to have an idea of what's available.  Then when you look for a function, go to the chapters relevant to your question (eg. here, you would search in the Conses, Arrays, Strings and Sequences chapters), and look in their dictionaries for the function you want.
2017-12-18T12:39:48Z pjb: Murii: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
2017-12-18T12:40:15Z Murii: got it
2017-12-18T12:40:17Z Murii: thanks
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2017-12-18T13:21:44Z Fare: Murii: position
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2017-12-18T15:39:46Z dmiles[m]: my favorite way to search the clhs is the http://autocad.xarch.at/lisp/cormanlisp/all-lispchm.zip  (windows chm files)
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2017-12-18T15:40:34Z dmiles[m]: that has CLHS Cttl2 (besides cormqaqn lisp)
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2017-12-18T15:41:34Z dmiles[m]: well what is good is as one is typing in the index box matching text comes up from everywhere
2017-12-18T15:41:35Z Xach: what is cormqaqn lisp?
2017-12-18T15:42:14Z dmiles[m]: cormanlisp (was expecting the typo to be deduced from the url)
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2017-12-18T20:08:38Z jmercouris: I asked yesterday, but I'll ask again, is someone willing to join a group to collectively review PRs for orphaned projects?
2017-12-18T20:08:47Z jmercouris: To basically keep things kind of up to date
2017-12-18T20:09:02Z jmercouris: I would like to get as many individuals as possible in on this group to give it some inertia/carry-over into the future
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2017-12-18T20:10:06Z mfiano: Sure
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2017-12-18T20:12:35Z jmercouris: mfiano: What is your github username?
2017-12-18T20:12:47Z mfiano: mfiano
2017-12-18T20:12:58Z jmercouris: I hvae to go for now, anyone else, I'll check the logs!
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2017-12-18T20:14:53Z warweasle_afk: Question about PIAIP: Can I create a lazy evaluating prolog style language using a topological sort instead of unification?
2017-12-18T20:15:26Z fourier: quicklisp-client has 11 open PRs, some of them without comments, with last update 10 months ago. Consider it as an abandoned project? :)
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2017-12-18T20:19:50Z sjl: minion: memo for jmercouris: I'd join a review group.  sjl on github.
2017-12-18T20:19:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-12-18T20:25:02Z mfiano: Hello sjl. Not sure if you received my message the other day or not.
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2017-12-18T20:28:35Z Xach: 10
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2017-12-18T20:31:12Z shka: 11
2017-12-18T20:31:26Z _death: 100
2017-12-18T20:31:35Z shka: no!
2017-12-18T20:31:41Z shka: 101
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2017-12-18T20:33:31Z fourier: :)
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2017-12-18T20:46:48Z sjl: mfiano: nope
2017-12-18T20:47:02Z sjl: mfiano: sorry, I still need to get an irc bouncer set up properly somewhere
2017-12-18T20:47:14Z mfiano: sjl: Ah, I was just wondering what you use for vim CL development, since you are the only one I know that uses vim.
2017-12-18T20:47:18Z sjl: ah
2017-12-18T20:47:20Z sjl: vlime
2017-12-18T20:47:33Z sjl: https://github.com/l04m33/vlime/
2017-12-18T20:47:41Z mfiano: Aha. Is it true that vlime does not give you a REPL to type into?
2017-12-18T20:48:03Z sjl: correct, you send text from a scratch buffer and review the results in a separate buffer
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2017-12-18T20:48:12Z sjl: I like having a repl, so I use neovim's terminal emulator to launch the lisp process
2017-12-18T20:48:20Z sjl: and use that as my repl
2017-12-18T20:48:27Z mfiano: That is odd.
2017-12-18T20:48:31Z mfiano: Ok.
2017-12-18T20:48:52Z sjl: Vim has never really supported the "some parts of the buffer are modifiable but not others" model
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2017-12-18T20:49:12Z sjl: slimv tried to do that for its lisp repl, but it was a buggy mess
2017-12-18T20:49:37Z sjl: vlime doesn't bother attempting, and instead works with Vim's normal workflow
2017-12-18T20:50:12Z mfiano: I used slimv for about 6 years before I moved to Emacs, but I am getting reacquainted with [n]vim recently.
2017-12-18T20:50:34Z sjl: I've found vlime to work much better than slimv
2017-12-18T20:50:39Z sjl: so it might be worth trying
2017-12-18T20:51:15Z mfiano: I haven't looked into the documentation for nvim's terminal yet, but at quick glance, it doesn't let me enter normal mode
2017-12-18T20:51:48Z mfiano: Which is going to take some getting used to, to perform the usual operators.
2017-12-18T20:51:58Z sjl: It does, it just has a different shortcut
2017-12-18T20:52:21Z sjl: because <esc> is a useful key in many things you might want to run in a terminal
2017-12-18T20:52:32Z sjl: you can bind it back to <esc> if you want (I do)
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2017-12-18T20:53:36Z mfiano: So what do you do to get a terminal running your implementation's REPL in the same context as the code you are sending to vlime's internal REPL?
2017-12-18T20:53:43Z mfiano: or am I misunderstanding?
2017-12-18T20:54:18Z sjl: so, the general idea with SLIME/SWANK is that you run a lisp process and fire up a swank server inside it, which listens for incoming connections
2017-12-18T20:54:31Z sjl: then in your editor, emacs/vim/whatever you connect to that server over tcp or whatever
2017-12-18T20:54:51Z sjl: in my case, I'm doing this, but I happen to be starting the Lisp process from within a Neovim split
2017-12-18T20:55:10Z sjl: instead of in a different terminal window or whatever
2017-12-18T20:55:35Z mfiano: I see. I'll look into this. It's going to take me some getting used to away from Sly though (a more featureful SLIME).
2017-12-18T20:55:55Z sjl: if you're already comfortable in emacs it's probably not worth it
2017-12-18T20:56:27Z sjl: but I can't get Vim out of my fingers at this point (evil mode was a pale imitation last time I tried it) so I make due with vlime
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2017-12-18T20:56:52Z sjl: the real solution would be for me to take a year off and make my own terminal/ncurses editor in CL
2017-12-18T20:57:01Z mfiano: I am, but it's not practical on one of my devices (an old netbook which I don't even like running Xorg on due to the memory restrictions)
2017-12-18T20:57:13Z sjl: ah
2017-12-18T20:57:14Z mfiano: So I have migrated to vim for all other development there.
2017-12-18T20:57:28Z sjl: a/b 4
2017-12-18T20:57:31Z sjl: whops
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2017-12-18T21:00:03Z mfiano: I have a lot of experience developing CL in both editors, but I also prefer vim, mainly because it uses far less resources, and is very snappy on old hardware.
2017-12-18T21:00:23Z mfiano: I just haven't tried vlime, but I am thinking about it now :)
2017-12-18T21:00:36Z rumbler31: hmm
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2017-12-18T21:03:29Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jmercouris: count me in for reviewing
2017-12-18T21:03:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-12-18T21:11:21Z jfb4: sjl: so to deploy in production on a remote server, would you use the same mechanics of having swank running on remote?
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2017-12-18T21:17:49Z jmercouris: mfiano: Any idea for the name of the group?
2017-12-18T21:17:49Z minion: jmercouris, memo from sjl: I'd join a review group.  sjl on github.
2017-12-18T21:17:49Z minion: jmercouris, memo from rumbler31: count me in for reviewing
2017-12-18T21:18:06Z jmercouris: Ok, I will add you two as well
2017-12-18T21:18:28Z mfiano: Nope, I assumed one already existed
2017-12-18T21:18:43Z jmercouris: None exists, I have to think of a good name, marketing is everything :P
2017-12-18T21:19:14Z jmercouris: How about "Common Lisp User Group"?
2017-12-18T21:19:44Z aeth: How does that differ from sharplispers?
2017-12-18T21:19:45Z phoe: jmercouris: which group?
2017-12-18T21:19:48Z jmercouris: CLPRG = Common Lisp PR Group
2017-12-18T21:19:57Z phoe: PR as in public relations?
2017-12-18T21:20:12Z jmercouris: phoe: I'm trying to organize a group of people on github to fork/share responsibility in accepting/reviewing PRs from orphaned repositories
2017-12-18T21:20:24Z phoe: jmercouris: gotcha. why isn't sharplispers good enough?
2017-12-18T21:20:51Z jmercouris: phoe: Perhaps they are, 1. I did not know they exist 2. the more the merrier
2017-12-18T21:21:09Z jmercouris: Is that what sharp lispers does?
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2017-12-18T21:22:55Z jackdaniel: I've never heard that it's an orphanage (until recently)
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2017-12-18T21:24:00Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I assume you are correct about it's purpose, therefore this would seem to serve a different one
2017-12-18T21:24:04Z jmercouris: Name suggestions?
2017-12-18T21:24:20Z jmercouris: so far I am a huge fan of CL User Group
2017-12-18T21:24:22Z jackdaniel: lisp gardeners?
2017-12-18T21:24:40Z jmercouris: gardeneres while accurate, doesn't convey the image we want
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2017-12-18T21:26:56Z Xach: jmercouris: sharplispers is for adopting and maintaining orphaned projects.
2017-12-18T21:27:14Z Xach: We make sure they remain accessible and merge patches and make occasional changes.
2017-12-18T21:27:27Z jmercouris: Xach: I see, so perhaps this is the group to join after all
2017-12-18T21:27:32Z jmercouris: what are your application requirements?
2017-12-18T21:28:15Z jmercouris: Xach: What are your criteria for forking/accepting new projects? What is your process?
2017-12-18T21:28:48Z Xach: jmercouris: if someone notices a project with no maintainer, or a maintainer who is actively giving up maintenance, we will add it to sharplispers on github.
2017-12-18T21:29:02Z Xach: There isn't much process. Sometimes it is done by email. Sometimes it is done through issues or irc.
2017-12-18T21:29:13Z Xach: If someone wants to join and do it, they can do it.
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2017-12-18T21:29:34Z jmercouris: Xach: What is the literal process to join
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2017-12-18T21:29:49Z jmercouris: Xach: Does someone contact you? and then you just add them?
2017-12-18T21:30:06Z Xach: jmercouris: "can i join sharplispers" and i respond "ok, what is your github user id" and then i do it.
2017-12-18T21:30:54Z jmercouris: Xach: can i join sharplispers? can you also make me an admin so that I may add new people?
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2017-12-18T21:31:27Z Xach: In this case, I missed some context. Why do you want to join? Is there a specific project?
2017-12-18T21:31:45Z jmercouris: Xach: I see that there is a need for this project to be bigger
2017-12-18T21:32:00Z jmercouris: It needs more inertia and it needs to be self sustaining
2017-12-18T21:32:08Z phoe: jmercouris: 2) "the more the merrier" doesn't work
2017-12-18T21:32:14Z Xach: jmercouris: what project?
2017-12-18T21:32:22Z jmercouris: Xach: Sharplispers
2017-12-18T21:32:37Z phoe: jmercouris: then come join them and push together with them
2017-12-18T21:32:50Z phoe: creating inertia in project A doesn't happen by pushing projet B
2017-12-18T21:33:05Z jmercouris: phoe: Yes, this is the discussion Xach and I right now, I am asking him to join the group with admin rights so I may add people
2017-12-18T21:33:07Z Xach: jmercouris: Is there a specific orphaned project you wish to maintain via sharplispers?
2017-12-18T21:33:17Z jmercouris: Xach: I can think of one yes, cl-string-match
2017-12-18T21:33:22Z jmercouris: Must I have a specific project in mind though?
2017-12-18T21:34:22Z Xach: jmercouris: It would help. The goal of sharplispers is not to grow and expand sharplispers, but to keep useful things from falling entirely by the wayside into neglect.
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2017-12-18T21:35:22Z jmercouris: Xach: In order to satisfy goal 1: Keep useful things from falling entirely by the wayside into neglect, it is necessary to 2. Have a large community of members that can sustain themselves over time and maintain a consistent knowledge pool
2017-12-18T21:35:42Z jmercouris: When you have such a small group of only 8 people, it only takes the loss of a few members for the percent churn to be so great that so much knowledge is immediately lost
2017-12-18T21:35:48Z galdor: from an outsider who has barely the time to hack some lisp for fun, I'm much more concerned about maintaining quality than having more developers
2017-12-18T21:35:59Z galdor: especially when there are sensible projects such as ironclad
2017-12-18T21:36:23Z jmercouris: galdor: This isn't about expanding and developing new projects, one doesn't need to be an expert Lisper to review PR fixes and tests
2017-12-18T21:36:51Z jmercouris: Of course one must always be careful to avoid misstep, but it is certainly an easier task than programming novel systems
2017-12-18T21:37:55Z jmercouris: Xach: Sharplispers to me sounds more like a guild than anything else the way you are describing it
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2017-12-18T21:38:33Z galdor: of course one can always send PR, as for any other github project
2017-12-18T21:39:01Z sjl: jfb4: if I wanted the thing to be debuggable in production, I could run a swank server in the production process and just make absolutely sure it's only listening on localhost, yes
2017-12-18T21:39:11Z sjl: probably firewall the port with iptables just to be sure
2017-12-18T21:39:23Z jmercouris: galdor: Yes, and what about when users do not respond to PRs as they often do?
2017-12-18T21:40:23Z rumbler31: sjl: I think by default its listening on localhost, you need to explicitly change a global to make swank listen on a specific interfaces
2017-12-18T21:40:47Z sjl: rumbler31: I would hope so, yeah
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2017-12-18T21:41:11Z rumbler31: sjl: I should have said "is" rather than "I think"
2017-12-18T21:41:58Z galdor: jmercouris: been there, done that, this is indeed frustrating
2017-12-18T21:42:16Z sjl: the only stuff I've "deployed" in CL so far has been some games running under a telnet server.  for those I just disable the debugger entirely -- if they crash oh well
2017-12-18T21:42:33Z galdor: I now just fork what I need, and add everything as submodules in my "site-lisp" repository
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2017-12-18T21:42:41Z galdor: as long as the license matches of course
2017-12-18T21:43:00Z Xach: jmercouris: Maybe a guild is a good description. The existing people are those who know and trust each other. People who have asked to join have had a good reputation and history.
2017-12-18T21:43:22Z galdor: in general you cannot really expect your PR to be merged as fast as you need it (i.e. right now), so having your fork and sending the PR separately seems to be a good idea
2017-12-18T21:44:06Z jmercouris: Xach: Then what you have, and what I would like to have are two different concepts, groups with a similar mission, but I would like to be significantly more inclusive
2017-12-18T21:44:21Z Xach: jmercouris: Ok
2017-12-18T21:44:46Z jmercouris: I also don't like the idea of fragmenting the community more though
2017-12-18T21:45:21Z Xach: jmercouris: Would you still like to be added, and add cl-string-match and maintain it?
2017-12-18T21:45:57Z Xach: jmercouris: can you tell me more about the neglect of cl-string-match? Its author seems to be recently active on other projects.
2017-12-18T21:46:02Z jfb4: sjl/rumbler31:thanks!!
2017-12-18T21:46:17Z rumbler31: what did I do
2017-12-18T21:46:37Z jmercouris: Xach: Yeah, there's a several compiler warnings when loaded, and some incomplete sections of the API IIRC
2017-12-18T21:47:02Z jmercouris: Let me gist a compilation log, one second
2017-12-18T21:47:38Z sjl: jmercouris: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/pull-requests/ doesn't have any open PRs I can see
2017-12-18T21:48:10Z jmercouris: sjl: True, it doesn't have any open PRs, but there's a lot of incomplete things
2017-12-18T21:48:24Z jmercouris: and without an update in many many months, I am inclined to believe those things will not be completed
2017-12-18T21:48:29Z sjl: I mean, isn't the solution to that to send PRs?
2017-12-18T21:48:47Z sjl: in the CL world I treat anything that's had commits in the past couple of years as "still active"
2017-12-18T21:48:51Z jmercouris: Yes, that would be a good solution
2017-12-18T21:48:56Z jmercouris: maybe I should submit some PRs
2017-12-18T21:49:14Z sjl: Most CL things don't tend to break every month or two like in some other languages
2017-12-18T21:49:30Z sjl: So if something doesn't have activity for a year or two, it's fine
2017-12-18T21:49:55Z sjl: but yeah, if it's missing stuff you want, the first thing to do would be to PR the original repo
2017-12-18T21:50:35Z sjl: If it turns out that the author doesn't want to maintain it anymore, okay, fork it to an orphanage org (ideally with their blessing)
2017-12-18T21:50:51Z sjl: but you'd need to write the code for the PR anyway, so it doesn't hurt to send it
2017-12-18T21:51:00Z jmercouris: sjl: Yeah, you are correct
2017-12-18T21:51:32Z jmercouris: sjl: What do you think, do you prefer Xach's "guild" approach to a code orphanage, or do you think it should be a larger, growing organization that shares responsibility?
2017-12-18T21:52:21Z jmercouris: I guess one of the issues with github is there doesn't appear to be some sort of democratic pull request review (as far as I can tell) in which a group of people agreeing on consensus could merge changes, this makes it necessary to find "expert, trusted" reviewers
2017-12-18T21:53:35Z jack_rabbit: jmercouris, I think there are add-ons or plug-ins to do that.
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2017-12-18T21:54:20Z sjl: I generally prefer finding a particular person who's interested in a project and passing maintainership off to them
2017-12-18T21:54:41Z jmercouris: sjl: These "project" leaders could emerge in what is part of a project organizations
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2017-12-18T21:54:43Z sjl: having a team of people means no one person owns anything, and there's always an air of "someone else will get around to reviewing it"
2017-12-18T21:54:55Z jmercouris: I think naturally individuals withn an organization will adopt sections of the "codebase" and take ownership
2017-12-18T21:55:13Z jmercouris: but in this case, the unit of granularity would be a "repository" within a group of repositories
2017-12-18T21:55:40Z jmercouris: jack_rabbit: Do you know the names of any?
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2017-12-18T21:56:21Z jmercouris: sjl: After reviewing one or two PRs for a particular repository, I think a user will feel a sense of ownership towards that repository, while at the same time having a group of other individuals to support them
2017-12-18T21:56:35Z sjl: hopefully
2017-12-18T21:56:55Z jmercouris: Plus if there is anything I know about Lisp users, I know they will not hesitate to tell you when they think you are wrong, so maybe the group review thing could work quite well anyway :P
2017-12-18T21:57:42Z jack_rabbit: I do not, but I've seen features like that.
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2017-12-18T22:02:10Z jmercouris: I'm looking here, and there seems to be a few interesting features: https://help.github.com/articles/enabling-required-reviews-for-pull-requests/
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2017-12-18T22:04:19Z jmercouris: More of the same topic: https://help.github.com/articles/defining-the-mergeability-of-pull-requests/
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2017-12-18T22:07:03Z jmercouris: Here's exactly the discussion: https://github.com/isaacs/github/issues/1001
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2017-12-18T22:10:24Z jmercouris: Using this API here: https://developer.github.com/v3/pulls/reviews/ I could program somethig that says something like "when there is 75% agreeance on merging a PR, and min 3 users, allow a merge" or something like that, thoughts?
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2017-12-18T22:26:30Z Xach: jmercouris: To be frank, I think you are cuckoo and your ideas won't work out. But I also felt that way about drmeister when he started making a new CL, and that is proving me wrong for a long time now. So I guess I am more inclined to wait and see and cheer if things work out.
2017-12-18T22:27:08Z Xach: I admire people with ideas who do work
2017-12-18T22:27:21Z Xach: I also thought slime would be a bust. What do I know?
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2017-12-18T22:27:51Z jmercouris: Xach: Perhaps I am a little crazy, :P
2017-12-18T22:29:05Z phoe: jmercouris: good luck!
2017-12-18T22:29:09Z jmercouris: A lot of people already told me that nobody would use my browser, but I discovered somebody with a dot-file for my browser! So at there's at least one person using it :D
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2017-12-18T22:29:28Z jmercouris: phoe: I haven't embarked on this journey quite yet, I am still thinking about it, but thank you nonetheless
2017-12-18T22:29:40Z phoe: Xach: a single person cannot feasibly maintain a central package repository for years with some degree of stability, you are completely bonkers
2017-12-18T22:31:03Z jmercouris: On one hand, I wish for a bigger Lisp community, on the other I like how it seems to be restricted mostly to experts, I don't wish for eternal september
2017-12-18T22:31:36Z jmercouris: However "small" the Lisp community is, I think there are enough members to maintain a core set of useful packages as part of an organization
2017-12-18T22:31:46Z jmercouris: and to pick up orphaned packages as well
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2017-12-18T22:35:39Z fourier: I guess at the end of the day most used packages are maintained by the same group of lisp enthusiast who know each other for years (via internet of course)
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2017-12-18T22:37:56Z fourier: also there were a couple of community-sharing-etc projects, last one I can remember was cl ultraspec
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2017-12-18T22:57:24Z tom34: is 'practical common lisp' a good book to learn from?
2017-12-18T22:57:33Z Shinmera: yes
2017-12-18T23:00:09Z tom34: alright, cool
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2017-12-18T23:16:39Z pjb: tom34: if you're already a programmer. If you're a total newbie, Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2017-12-18T23:17:45Z tom34: <pjb> not a new to programming, just never worked with lisp
2017-12-18T23:17:56Z pjb: then pcl.
2017-12-18T23:18:03Z tom34: i'll look at any and all *good* resources
2017-12-18T23:18:38Z pjb: more resources at http://cliki.net
2017-12-18T23:21:38Z tom34: alright, thanks!
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2017-12-18T23:49:41Z sjl: Is there any standard way to peek at a binary stream in CL?  There's peek-char and unread-char for character streams, but I can't find anything for binary streams
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2017-12-18T23:59:00Z pjb: There is not. You can always read a byte and keep it around.
2017-12-18T23:59:48Z pjb: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.peek-stream
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2017-12-19T00:41:49Z sjl: I think I'll probably end up using flexi-streams.  My next question is how to check whether a stream supports binary i/o.
2017-12-19T00:42:20Z sjl: (subtypep (stream-external-format s) 'integer) is close, but doesn't pick up e.g. SBCL's bivalent streams
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2017-12-19T00:58:58Z Xach: fwiw: binary adj. 1. (of a stream) being a stream that has an element type that is a subtype of type integer.
2017-12-19T00:59:14Z Xach: sjl: no standard way. out of curiosity, what prompts the desire?
2017-12-19T00:59:44Z Xach: i agree that sbcl bivalent streams don't look like they can be sussed out by the element-type
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2017-12-19T01:03:36Z jasom: suggestions for wall-clock profiling of sbcl?  I am getting about a 1:4 ratio of CPU to wall-clock time, and assume it's I/O bound in foreign libraries, but am not sure if there's a better way than manually instrumenting my code.
2017-12-19T01:04:26Z jasom: clhs stream-element-type
2017-12-19T01:04:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stm_el.htm
2017-12-19T01:05:57Z jasom: though again that doesn't pick up SBCL's bivalent streams
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2017-12-19T01:08:48Z Xach: sjl: burning with curiosity!
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2017-12-19T01:13:14Z sjl: Xach: sorry got paged for work, hang on
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2017-12-19T01:41:01Z jasom: blargh.  So sb-sprof has a :mode :time option, which should do what I want.  However, I have 8s of wall-clock time and only ~2s worth of samples.  If I add a (sleep 2) to the main body of my with-profiling, I get ~4s worth of samples.  Anybody know what sorts of thing(s) sb-sprof can't discover runtime from?
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2017-12-19T01:53:34Z sjl: Xach: I'm making a little library that will parse a simple image format
2017-12-19T01:53:54Z sjl: my goal is to have a function users can call which takes a stream and reads the image from it, and returns a Lisp array with the pixel data
2017-12-19T01:54:21Z sjl: ideally I'd like this library to work with both character and binary input streams
2017-12-19T01:54:26Z sjl: but this is proving tricky to do
2017-12-19T01:55:59Z Zhivago: Why would you want to use character input streams?
2017-12-19T01:56:22Z sjl: Zhivago: the image format is PPM, which has an ascii-based format
2017-12-19T01:56:53Z sjl: so if someone wants to type in a simple PPM file to test on stdin, I'd like to let them
2017-12-19T01:57:06Z Xach: sjl: when i am faced with problems like that, i deal only with binary streams but make it easy to express the ascii codes as characters to be translated to code for parsing.
2017-12-19T01:57:19Z sjl: but, I could live with requiring them to supply only binary input streams
2017-12-19T01:57:36Z sjl: or rather, supplying only input streams that support binary operations
2017-12-19T01:57:42Z sjl: e.g. sbcl's standard-input
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2017-12-19T01:58:09Z sjl: which brings me back to my request: how do I detect that they've given me what I've asked for, so I can fail with a nice error message if they don't
2017-12-19T01:58:13Z Xach: i have something like (ascii-code-case ((#\a #\b 12 :cr :lf) ...) ...)
2017-12-19T01:58:44Z Xach: so, a character, a bare code, or a symbolic thingy could match, but obviously only against an integer underneath
2017-12-19T01:58:46Z Zhivago: Well, you can read ascii in binary.
2017-12-19T01:58:49Z sjl: I could live with (assert (stream-supports-binary-ops-p ...) ...) at the beginning of the function
2017-12-19T01:59:13Z sjl: but I don't want someone to pass a character input stream and get a stack trace from wherever the hell my first `read-byte` function call happens to be
2017-12-19T01:59:13Z Xach: sjl: I suspect there isn't a portable way.
2017-12-19T01:59:43Z Xach: The error is too generic for non-binary stream errors.
2017-12-19T01:59:51Z Xach: Specified as too generic, that is.
2017-12-19T02:00:02Z Zhivago: Why not decouple it by removing streams from the equation?
2017-12-19T02:00:04Z sjl: I was hoping either flexi-streams or trivial-gray-streams might have something, but couldn't find anything
2017-12-19T02:00:15Z Zhivago: I assume your code wants to do something like 'read the next byte'?
2017-12-19T02:00:19Z Xach: sjl: this could be a good question for a different audience, like stack overflow.
2017-12-19T02:00:40Z Xach: they have good responses there
2017-12-19T02:00:46Z Xach: pretty often, anyway
2017-12-19T02:00:54Z sjl: I haven't used my SO account in years... I guess I could dust it off
2017-12-19T02:01:16Z Xach: it's basically a way to get rainer joswig to dig into it, or sam steingold, or a handful of other prolific commenters who aren't usually here.
2017-12-19T02:01:42Z Xach: twitter can work sometimes but sometimes you get a really useless peanut gallery
2017-12-19T02:01:45Z Xach: like here!
2017-12-19T02:01:49Z Zhivago: If so, why not just supply the library with a function to get the next byte?
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2017-12-19T02:02:55Z dmiles: well something like a &key next-byte-fn
2017-12-19T02:03:02Z Xach: sjl: i like the noble goal of a nice direct error like "use a binary stream" but it feels somewhat out of reach to me in this situation
2017-12-19T02:03:15Z Xach wonders if he is forgetting something 
2017-12-19T02:03:17Z sjl: Streams are used all over the place in CL -- I don't want to have to force users to figure out how to use some weird byte-reading interface
2017-12-19T02:04:07Z pjb: sjl: this is idiotic. Will you be able to parse the image if the stream is a binary stream of (unsigned-byte 3)?
2017-12-19T02:04:24Z pjb: sjl: what about a stream of (unsigned-byte 36)?
2017-12-19T02:05:00Z Xach: sjl: is this limited to netpbm stuff?
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2017-12-19T02:05:03Z sjl: Xach: yes
2017-12-19T02:05:38Z Xach: sjl: one thought is you could try to read the magic with a read-byte and if it fails, try a read-char, and if that succeeds signal a nice error of some sort.
2017-12-19T02:05:41Z Xach: That is pretty early.
2017-12-19T02:05:59Z dmiles: well one thing that is possible (thinking about what pjb is saying) is that you might be able to create a small sanity test for the stream type you get provided and test if certain bytes come back accurate based on a file that you know what should be therer
2017-12-19T02:06:17Z sjl: that might be an option (getting the magic-byte via read-byte)
2017-12-19T02:06:24Z sjl: and if it fails, just bailing there
2017-12-19T02:07:05Z pjb: sjl: the point is that it's not up to your client to choose the stream type!  You must open the file yourself using the kind of stream you want!
2017-12-19T02:07:17Z Xach: there are a handful of reasons read-byte could fail, so it would be speculative to mention non-binary-ness
2017-12-19T02:07:22Z sjl: pjb: and if they want to read from standard-in?
2017-12-19T02:07:26Z Xach: but it would be early, anyway
2017-12-19T02:07:40Z pjb: sjl: then parse it from a text stream, happily that's ascii files.
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2017-12-19T02:08:18Z pjb: sjl: alternatively, you could parse a in-memory string (or byte vector), and let the client do the I/O.
2017-12-19T02:08:59Z dmiles: ahah, what pjb said is really agood idea.. copy the stream data to a stream you know the details of
2017-12-19T02:09:09Z pjb: It's always a good idea to separate the concerns and avoid doing the I/O in the processing code.
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2017-12-19T02:09:21Z sjl: sure, I could provide alternative interfaces.  But it should also be able to take an input stream.  What if they've implemented their own kind of stream (via trivial-gray-streams) and want to use its functionality?
2017-12-19T02:09:36Z sjl: e.g. the example gray-stream in SBCL's manual
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2017-12-19T02:10:39Z sjl: I can't avoid interleaving the processing and the reading -- I need to know how much data to read, which is encoded partway through the file header
2017-12-19T02:10:54Z dmiles: (though i guess is just getting the stream copied correctly is the basic underlying problem)
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2017-12-19T02:10:57Z sjl: I'm not just gonna copy the entire stream contents into a buffer or something.  There could be more things in the stream after the file
2017-12-19T02:12:08Z Xach: sjl: what prompted the interest in netpbm files?
2017-12-19T02:12:20Z Xach: i used to use them a lot as intermediate formats but haven't in quite a long time
2017-12-19T02:12:40Z dmiles: *not* what i am wondering is if you wanted to copy the data out of the stream is even really possible
2017-12-19T02:12:45Z dmiles: *not*
2017-12-19T02:12:52Z dmiles: oops *nod*
2017-12-19T02:12:53Z Zhivago: sjl: Why not just decouple from the stream via an accessor?
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2017-12-19T02:13:16Z sjl: Xach: I read an article somewhere that mentioned them, and they seem like a simple way to get graphics in/out, using e.g. imagemagic to reencode at the boundaries
2017-12-19T02:13:32Z Xach: they are pretty simple
2017-12-19T02:13:40Z Zhivago: sjl: Presumably you don't care about streams -- just about reading the next N bytes -- so why not just provide a function which does that?
2017-12-19T02:13:44Z Xach: the raytracer in ANSI Common Lisp uses it for output, iirc.
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2017-12-19T02:14:31Z sjl: Zhivago: I care about providing a simple interface to the user, not working around the streams problem by making them provide a function
2017-12-19T02:14:42Z dmiles: Zhivago: i assume slj is wanting to be able to in most cases be able to extract which accessor will make sense
2017-12-19T02:14:59Z sjl: I want them to say (read-ppm-from *standard-input*) not (read-ppm-with (alexandria:curry #'read-byte *standard-input*))
2017-12-19T02:15:01Z Xach: that was a real eye-opener. write some bytes on disk and you get graphics out of it!
2017-12-19T02:15:11Z sjl: Xach: yeah, it's refreshingly simple
2017-12-19T02:15:22Z sjl: Xach: aha, it was http://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/11/03/
2017-12-19T02:15:51Z Xach: cool
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2017-12-19T02:18:11Z Xach: i wrote a flash file format writer :~(
2017-12-19T02:18:21Z Zhivago: sjl: You have stream-element-type which should allow you to automatically select an appropriate accessor, no?
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2017-12-19T02:18:34Z Xach: it was too much work and wasn't easy enough to use for what i wanted.
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2017-12-19T02:19:28Z sjl: Zhivago: I want to ensure binary streams, but not exclude bivalent streams like sbcl's standard-input
2017-12-19T02:19:33Z Xach: it did give me some lemonodor-fame over 10 years ago though! http://lemonodor.com/archives/2004/06/flashy.html
2017-12-19T02:19:35Z sjl: and s-e-t doesn't seem to help with the latter
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2017-12-19T02:22:21Z Zhivago: Ah, well -- bivalent streams were not a very sensible extension, but fair enough.
2017-12-19T02:22:29Z dmiles: actualy what almost sounds reasonable is for the user to &key stream-type for bivaliant streams
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2017-12-19T02:23:12Z sjl: I think Xach's idea of trying to read the magic byte with read-byte first is a good compromise
2017-12-19T02:23:33Z sjl: it's early enough in the process
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2017-12-19T02:32:12Z dmiles: i would have expected the user to use the wrong type of stream even out of no choices so reading for a magic would be required most cases
2017-12-19T02:32:27Z dmiles: (anyways)
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2017-12-19T02:47:59Z dmiles: in a program i work with, a user supplies concatenated ascii and binary mixed from FASLs over a socket opened as either ascii or binary .. so in most transmitions i must change the element types based on some headers  and even then they tend to lie
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2017-12-19T03:03:05Z Zhivago: dmiles: Just imagine how much simpler it would have been if they couldn't do that. :)
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2017-12-19T05:05:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-19T07:18:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach!
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2017-12-19T07:19:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I've noticed there's been a lot of talk about abandoned libraries and libraries that are about to be abandoned.
2017-12-19T07:20:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd love to be able to be able to help maintain some libraries, but I don't have much spare time these days
2017-12-19T07:23:33Z beach: Sounds familiar.
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2017-12-19T07:33:29Z Zhivago: The question probably ought to be how much impact those abandonments would cause.
2017-12-19T07:33:43Z Zhivago: An abandonment with minimal impact is probably a good thing.
2017-12-19T07:33:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, the one that concerns me most is Fare + ASDF
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2017-12-19T07:36:08Z Zhivago: Seems like these days the main impact of ASDF ought to be via QuickLisp.
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2017-12-19T07:44:33Z hooman: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/be-a-coder-books
2017-12-19T07:44:42Z hooman: land of lisp, realm of racket
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2017-12-19T07:55:11Z Fare: ASDF is healthy
2017-12-19T07:55:38Z Fare: and I'll probably stay until all my pending changes are released, hopefully in 3.3.2.
2017-12-19T07:56:33Z Fare: so no big breakage expected. Actually, Xach and stassats will probably be relieved that I'm not there anymore... unless someone even more radical than I replaces me, of course.
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2017-12-19T08:18:11Z Zhivago: It might make sense for the QL maintainers to take ASDF also.
2017-12-19T08:21:42Z Shinmera: I don't think Xach wants to maintain ASDF.
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2017-12-19T08:35:36Z jackdaniel: code doesn't belong to "self-documenting" type either, so maintaining it would require some motivation and time
2017-12-19T08:35:41Z jackdaniel: and sense of purpose ;)
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2017-12-19T10:00:49Z hajovonta: hello
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2017-12-19T10:13:41Z fikka: hajovonta: hi
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2017-12-19T10:43:49Z phoe: Hey hi
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2017-12-19T12:09:30Z dmiles: if someone use LABELS at the toplevel of a file, are these declared in the global environment?
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2017-12-19T12:10:22Z jackdaniel: no
2017-12-19T12:10:46Z dmiles: what level should it be at? just the file?
2017-12-19T12:11:00Z dmiles: or just with eachother?
2017-12-19T12:11:33Z jackdaniel: lexical scope it covers
2017-12-19T12:11:36Z jackdaniel: consider: (labels ((foo () 3)) #'(lambda () (foo)))
2017-12-19T12:11:44Z jackdaniel: then function foo escapes in returned lambda
2017-12-19T12:11:54Z jackdaniel: but name foo is not installed in global environment
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2017-12-19T12:12:29Z jackdaniel: try: (labels ((foo () 3)) (fdefinition 'foo))
2017-12-19T12:12:37Z dmiles: what that be any differnt than flet ?
2017-12-19T12:12:45Z dmiles tries that with both
2017-12-19T12:13:01Z jackdaniel: labels installs names in lexical environment before defining functions
2017-12-19T12:13:05Z jackdaniel: flet does it after that
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2017-12-19T12:13:35Z jackdaniel: so if you define functions A and B in labels and you call B from A, it will call this B you have defined
2017-12-19T12:14:08Z dmiles: ok so in that way it is differnt than flet
2017-12-19T12:14:11Z jackdaniel: if you define them in flet, then it will call B from the environment in which you put flet/labels
2017-12-19T12:15:12Z jackdaniel: try (defun a () (pring "hi!")) ; (labels ((a () (print "hi from labels!")) (b () (a))) (b)) ; (flet ((a () (print "hi from flet!")) (b () (a))) (b))
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2017-12-19T12:16:45Z jackdaniel: of course pring is print
2017-12-19T12:17:27Z dmiles: *nod* i caught that the flet version
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2017-12-19T12:21:09Z dmiles: thank you jackdaniel
2017-12-19T12:21:57Z elonopea: anyone know how to turn off auto-repeat-mode in CLX for the duration the program is running, and then ensure it's turned back on before gracefully exiting?  I currently have the auto-repeat-mode turned off globally before the loop, and turn it back on on a key-release event, but this doesn't work unless I return nil from the key-release clause.  if I close/destroy the window/display within the key-release clause, auto-repeat-mode gets
2017-12-19T12:22:05Z elonopea: me into debugger
2017-12-19T12:23:14Z elonopea: I then issue Abort and get back to REPL with key repeat back on, but how to do this cleanly?
2017-12-19T12:24:03Z elonopea: sorry, auto-repeat-mode gets turned ON if I destroy the screen/display within the clause
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2017-12-19T12:25:43Z elonopea: I thought I could just add the call to turn auto-repeat-mode off into the key-release event clause (within event-case) as that would return T, but although the program exits auto-repeat-mode stays off
2017-12-19T12:25:58Z elonopea: sorry, turn it on...
2017-12-19T12:26:00Z jackdaniel: auto-repeat-mode is local to display, no?
2017-12-19T12:26:15Z jackdaniel: so if you open new display, then you should have previous value
2017-12-19T12:26:26Z elonopea: local to display yes, but the display is basically the X root AFAIUC
2017-12-19T12:27:05Z jackdaniel: you may open another display for new application
2017-12-19T12:27:16Z jackdaniel: display object represent single Xserver client
2017-12-19T12:27:42Z jackdaniel: you should close the display when you dispose it
2017-12-19T12:27:59Z jackdaniel: CLX doesn't maintain state of auto-repeat-mode, it is maintained on server side
2017-12-19T12:28:18Z jackdaniel: we just marshall request to set it on, off or default
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2017-12-19T12:28:57Z elonopea: I'm not sure how to go about this.  yes, key repeat remains off globally in X after the program exits.
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2017-12-19T12:31:31Z jackdaniel: there is no syntactic sugar to ensure it gets back to previous value
2017-12-19T12:31:50Z elonopea: here is the code:  https://pastebin.com/UTq1FXRr  (sorry about horrid indentation, comments and stray parens, I've been moving stuff around in desperate attempt to fix this)
2017-12-19T12:32:36Z jackdaniel: I would appreciate if you could fix the indentation before I try to tread the code
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2017-12-19T12:33:00Z elonopea: alright, will do.
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2017-12-19T12:51:12Z elonopea: jackdaniel: https://pastebin.com/7qLiWsrq - hopefully better, though not necessarily perfect by the book...
2017-12-19T12:54:22Z elonopea: apparently sneaked in an indent inconsistency with the key-repeat declarations.  I've been splitting the keywords on separate lines for clarity, and try to condense when I think I'm done twiddling with them
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2017-12-19T12:55:52Z jackdaniel: OK, I see the code, and what is wrong with it?
2017-12-19T12:56:28Z jackdaniel: if this key closes the application
2017-12-19T12:56:45Z jackdaniel: you may change auto-repeat-mode before you call xlib:close-display
2017-12-19T12:57:52Z elonopea: jackdaniel: when I release key 's', the key-repeat is turned back on, but it throws me into debugger:  https://pastebin.com/Nv6un6Yv
2017-12-19T12:58:31Z elonopea: you mean at the unwind?
2017-12-19T12:59:22Z elonopea: I tried to put it after the event-case form, but it never changed the key-repeat, so when I get back to REPL it's off
2017-12-19T13:00:45Z elonopea: same if I only leave the change-keyboard-control call to turn repeat back on inside the key-release clause within event-case, then the program exits but key-repeat is still off.  I don't get it to be honest.
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2017-12-19T13:02:30Z jackdaniel: btw, what clx do you use? I see `require' call – what is your lisp implementation?
2017-12-19T13:02:41Z jackdaniel: where did you get xembed extension from?
2017-12-19T13:03:27Z elonopea: with the current code, key-repeat is on (as supposed), but it throws me into the debugger.  I don't really understand the event handling well, seems like it's async and I don't know how to bring the whole thing down in controlled manner
2017-12-19T13:04:12Z elonopea: the xembed is for something else entirely, it's from quicklisp.  not sure if I even need it (for something else I'm doing)
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2017-12-19T13:05:00Z elonopea: SBCL 1.3.13, 64bit, threaded, on FreeBSD.  CLX is from quicklisp.
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2017-12-19T13:06:29Z jackdaniel: you should access events with process-event function
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2017-12-19T13:07:19Z jackdaniel: your snippet doesn't even run for me due to async errors
2017-12-19T13:07:52Z jackdaniel: here is the manual: http://hellsgate.pl/files/40ff3ea7
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2017-12-19T13:07:59Z jackdaniel: build from clx repository manual
2017-12-19T13:08:05Z elonopea: oh.  damn.
2017-12-19T13:08:38Z jackdaniel: see chapter for processing-events
2017-12-19T13:08:50Z jackdaniel:  it is 13.2 in this manual version
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2017-12-19T13:15:38Z elonopea: alright, thanks... I've been reading the manual but frankly the lack of examples is killing me.  even google has been quite unhelpful on this particular topic and I've had to resort to somewhat unrewarding studying of random (mostly uncommented) code
2017-12-19T13:16:10Z jackdaniel: there is demo/ directory
2017-12-19T13:16:13Z jackdaniel: with some examples
2017-12-19T13:16:35Z jackdaniel: when you grok it, and if you are willing to spend some time, you could write a tutorial for CLX
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2017-12-19T13:22:14Z elonopea: I glanced at it but often my problem with reading other people's CL sources is the (IMO) over-eager abstraction... people toss way too many layers upon layers of code for the sake of making everything general, tidy and purpose-built, but hiding the simple and obvious logic and structure in the process.  or that's how I often feel.  when I'm trying to get friendly with a new API I appreciate really, really stupid code that I can then h
2017-12-19T13:23:13Z Shinmera: You should look into getting an IRC client that isn't broken.
2017-12-19T13:23:26Z Shinmera: Or in other words, your message cut off after "code that I can then h"
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2017-12-19T13:23:30Z elonopea: anyway I'm going to take a more careful look at the demos now... if I get somewhere with this stuff I'll take the tutorial into consideration :-)
2017-12-19T13:23:44Z elonopea: ... "code that I can then hide under my own pretty wrapping"
2017-12-19T13:24:26Z elonopea: sorry, webchat. :-(  temporary solution..!
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2017-12-19T13:29:25Z pjb: elonopea: on the other hand, I don't find that most lisp code is too high level or abstracted at all; on the contrary, I find it rather rare to find multi-layered abstraction levels.  The reason being that it's costly to produce (in time and IQ).
2017-12-19T13:29:40Z pjb: elonopea: see for example O-META; very rarely used.
2017-12-19T13:29:47Z |3b|: Shinmera: isn't that a protocol problem, so clients can at best be "more conservative" rather than "not broken"?
2017-12-19T13:30:10Z pjb: elonopea: http://www.vpri.org/html/writings.php
2017-12-19T13:30:23Z pjb: elonopea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT4iewOHDs
2017-12-19T13:30:36Z pjb: elonopea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubaX1Smg6pY  etc
2017-12-19T13:30:38Z Shinmera: |3b|: There is a way to make it perfect, but even just having an arbitrary limit that is low enough to not just split your messages is better than trimming your messages and not realising.
2017-12-19T13:30:49Z Shinmera: *to just split your messages
2017-12-19T13:30:58Z pjb: elonopea: you may want to read/study sicp Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs  http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
2017-12-19T13:31:23Z pjb: elonopea: and stuff about DSL.
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2017-12-19T14:11:08Z elonopea: pjb: thanks.  I know SICP but never got around to reading it.  meanwhile I've acquired a ton of other literature on Lisp.
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2017-12-19T14:19:53Z mfiano: It is conforming for a client of IRC to either continue or cut off text consisting of more than 503 characters.
2017-12-19T14:23:34Z pjb: Are irc clients have their standard?
2017-12-19T14:24:02Z pjb: s/Are/Do/
2017-12-19T14:24:42Z mfiano: Not a standard, but an RFC
2017-12-19T14:24:57Z mfiano: IIRC it's 2^9 characters, minus the command length and trailing CRLF
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2017-12-19T14:29:08Z mfiano: Reading it again, it's kind of funny though, because character encoding is not mentioned at all.
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2017-12-19T14:30:21Z |3b| thought  it also includes host names, making it harder to predict where it will be further truncated during transmission
2017-12-19T14:31:19Z mfiano: |3b|: Not only that, but the target (channel or user for PRIVMSG), too.
2017-12-19T14:31:32Z Shinmera: |3b| is correct. You can't know your own hostname because the server might change it somehow
2017-12-19T14:31:33Z |3b|: sure, but source probably knows those :)
2017-12-19T14:31:46Z Bike: i thought the rfc was defined in terms of octets and didn't really mention encoding
2017-12-19T14:31:49Z Shinmera: So you need to first probe for your own hostname, remember that, and then calculate the proper prefix length to split "perfectly".
2017-12-19T14:31:52Z Bike: of course it still defines characters... dunno
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2017-12-19T14:40:11Z pjb: mfiano: and indeed, in practice you have channels using any coding system. Some are ASCII, some are Latin-1, some are utf-8, some are KOI, etc. You can find any encoding.
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2017-12-19T14:41:39Z luis: uei
2017-12-19T14:42:17Z foom: Haha, the IRC protocol RFC is about the least accurate specification ever written.
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2017-12-19T14:43:24Z foom: It's hard to say whether it or HTML4 was worse.
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2017-12-19T15:03:06Z luis: What's new and exciting in the world of Lisp?
2017-12-19T15:03:53Z pjb: sexps
2017-12-19T15:04:14Z luis: How about that CL REPL for Android? That's neat.
2017-12-19T15:04:37Z pjb: Yet another one.
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2017-12-19T17:48:01Z Bike: jasom: you ever figure out that weird code deletion note?
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2017-12-19T17:53:28Z jasom: Bike: nope, it's still being noted, but that line of code is being run as far as I can tell
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2017-12-19T18:00:33Z Bike: wack.
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2017-12-19T18:07:47Z jmercouris: Bike: What does it mean for a line of code to be "noted"?
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2017-12-19T18:14:11Z scymtym: jmercouris: a "note" is the least severe type of condition signaled by SBCL's compiler. more severe ones are style-warning, warning, error
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2017-12-19T18:17:03Z Bike: jmercouris: in this case, sbcl is signaling a(n errant) note that a line of code is being deleted by the compiler.
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2017-12-19T18:25:44Z earl-ducaine: Hi Lispions!  q: about quasiquote syntax -- is the dot notation excatly the same as the at notation, or is there some subtle difference I'm not see?  e.g. https://gist.github.com/earl-ducaine/bce5e27248c806027b824e8162b381c3
2017-12-19T18:27:38Z beach: "Anywhere ``,@'' may be used, the syntax ``,.'' may be used instead to indicate that it is permissible to operate destructively on the list structure produced by the form following the ``,.'' (in effect, to use nconc instead of append). "
2017-12-19T18:27:50Z beach: clhs 2.4.6
2017-12-19T18:27:51Z specbot: Backquote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2017-12-19T18:28:00Z pjb: earl-ducaine: (let ((a '(1 2 3)) (b '(4 5 6))) `(try this with dots > ,@a ,@b <))
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2017-12-19T18:30:35Z earl-ducaine: beach: awsome. That's exactly what i was looking for.  Thanks!
2017-12-19T18:30:44Z earl-ducaine: I was just looking at that page , but got discouraged when trying to do a text search for: .
2017-12-19T18:30:54Z beach: I see, yes.
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2017-12-19T18:34:51Z _death: ,. is a silly and best forgotten ;)
2017-12-19T18:35:18Z |3b| votes use ., instead (where applicable) just to confuse people
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2017-12-19T18:36:58Z _death: the parenthetical remark is also interesting, since just before that paragraph there's an example of building up a vector
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2017-12-19T18:38:06Z |3b|: sure, use nconc then apply #'vector to it
2017-12-19T18:38:48Z |3b| wonders if that interpretation means `# is required to fail when used with more than call-arguments-limit values
2017-12-19T18:38:53Z _death: yeah, that could work
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2017-12-19T18:40:33Z |3b|: actually i guess that applies to ` as well, since it is defined in terms of append
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2017-12-19T18:45:09Z jmercouris: scymtym: Thank you fr the explanation
2017-12-19T18:45:20Z jmercouris: Bike: How can a compiler delete a line of code? what does that mean in practice?
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2017-12-19T18:45:45Z sjl: jmercouris: (if nil (print :foo) (print :bar))
2017-12-19T18:46:00Z Shinmera: If a branch can never be reached, the code is useless and can be deleted to save on code cache.
2017-12-19T18:46:02Z sjl: the first print can never happen, so the compiler might not even compile it into the function at all
2017-12-19T18:46:02Z jmercouris: sjl: You are telling me both branches will be deleted?
2017-12-19T18:46:11Z sjl: jmercouris: no, just the first
2017-12-19T18:46:15Z jmercouris: I'm sorry yes, I forgot about the if /else
2017-12-19T18:46:26Z jmercouris: I keep mixing languages while thinking
2017-12-19T18:47:21Z sjl: another example: (disassemble (lambda (x) (declare (type integer x)) (typecase x (number :foo) (symbol :bar))))
2017-12-19T18:47:39Z sjl: compiles away the :bar branch
2017-12-19T18:47:48Z sjl: on SBCL
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2017-12-19T18:48:34Z jmercouris: sjl: what does declare ignore do from a compiler perspective? does it for example avoid passing that arg?
2017-12-19T18:48:46Z jmercouris: sjl: Or does it just use it only as a sign to not signal a compilation warning?
2017-12-19T18:48:56Z sjl: the latter
2017-12-19T18:49:13Z sjl: the argument is still passed, it just doesn't warn you that you're not using it
2017-12-19T18:49:20Z sjl: or, if you *do* use it, it should warn you
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2017-12-19T18:50:17Z jmercouris: sjl: Do you have a moment to discuss a problem I was having?
2017-12-19T18:50:23Z sjl: sure
2017-12-19T18:51:02Z jmercouris: (Disclaimer: I've already brought this up on this channel before, but the conclusion wasn't a really good one)
2017-12-19T18:51:33Z jmercouris: I have this problem, I want to make a minibuffer input, my GUI does not have a blocking "read" function like a terminal
2017-12-19T18:51:55Z jmercouris: Therefore, I was thinking of using a semaphore to make a sort of blocking read
2017-12-19T18:52:20Z jmercouris: Why do I want to do this? because minibuffer input in my program is kind of strange
2017-12-19T18:52:33Z jmercouris: and one would have to do weird chaining to use multiple inputs in a function
2017-12-19T18:52:33Z sjl: question 1: what is a "minibuffer"
2017-12-19T18:52:49Z jmercouris: sjl: Like an emacs minibuffer
2017-12-19T18:52:55Z jmercouris: Where you input text
2017-12-19T18:52:55Z sjl doesn't use emacs
2017-12-19T18:53:09Z jmercouris: here's a gist illustrating what I'm saying: https://gist.github.com/jmercouris/944e60992fd391fc9008485788342ce6
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2017-12-19T18:53:52Z sjl: so it's some kind of text box UI widget?
2017-12-19T18:53:59Z jmercouris: sjl: Yes
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2017-12-19T18:54:12Z sjl: ok
2017-12-19T18:55:25Z sjl: so you have a widget in the UI the user can put some text into, edit, copy, paste, etc etc
2017-12-19T18:55:33Z jmercouris: Yes
2017-12-19T18:55:40Z sjl: okay, go on
2017-12-19T18:55:49Z jmercouris: sjl: Here's the issue, people can write functions that say "Ask the user for some input"
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2017-12-19T18:55:59Z jmercouris: I want them to be able to do a sort of "blocking" ask
2017-12-19T18:56:08Z jmercouris: instead of asking the user for input, getting the input, and then calling some function with that input
2017-12-19T18:56:50Z jmercouris: the reason being that it makes it much more complex for the end user when they have to consider 2 or more user inputs into a function, they would have to prompt the user and chain several funcetions together
2017-12-19T18:56:55Z jmercouris: does that make sense or no?
2017-12-19T18:57:09Z sjl: you're essentially trying to avoid javascript-style callback hell?
2017-12-19T18:57:24Z jmercouris: sjl: More or less yes, for the person writing plugins for nEXT
2017-12-19T18:57:29Z sjl: right
2017-12-19T18:57:33Z jmercouris: or packages in this case
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2017-12-19T18:58:45Z jmercouris: Anyways, the other user here on #lisp said it was a mistake to use semaphores and to make new threads for for every input, they said it would cause huge problems
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2017-12-19T18:59:04Z beach: It sounds like you need CLIM.  It does a good job of turning event-style backends into stream-style application code.
2017-12-19T18:59:26Z beach: Not that I completely understand the problem.
2017-12-19T18:59:45Z jmercouris: beach: How does it do that? how does it block?
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2017-12-19T19:00:30Z beach: Like I said, I don't quite know what your problem is, so I am not sure how to answer that question.
2017-12-19T19:00:57Z jmercouris: Ok let me place the problem in a context
2017-12-19T19:01:12Z jmercouris: 1. There exists a GUI box on screen that the user can type text into
2017-12-19T19:01:20Z jmercouris: 2. I may ask the GUI box on the screen what are its contents
2017-12-19T19:01:39Z jmercouris: 3. My program detects all keystrokes (RET, Ctrl, A, Q, L, etc)
2017-12-19T19:02:17Z jmercouris: 4. Users of of my program write functions that except the following sequence of events I. Ask user some question II. User types input into GUI Textbox III. User presses the return key
2017-12-19T19:02:26Z jmercouris: s/except/expect
2017-12-19T19:03:17Z jmercouris: 5. Currently users of my program can only get input in the following way (get-input-from-user "Some Prompt Message" function-to-call-with-input)
2017-12-19T19:03:24Z beach: Right, so in CLIM, you would just call an ordinary Common Lisp READ function.  It would work automatically.
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2017-12-19T19:03:43Z jmercouris: 6. So, the program will say to the user "Some Prompt Message", collect their input, then fire off (function-to-call-with-input)
2017-12-19T19:04:43Z sjl: But instead of providing a callback, you'd rather (get-input-from-user) suspend computation at that point, wait for the input to happen, and resume computation once it's ready, with the result value being the input
2017-12-19T19:04:52Z jmercouris: beach: That's the functionality I'm trying to imitate , I can't exactly use CLIM though as I am already using Cocoa/GTK
2017-12-19T19:04:55Z sjl: because it's more natural to read/write that way, right?
2017-12-19T19:05:01Z jmercouris: sjl: Yes, EXACTLY!
2017-12-19T19:05:04Z sjl: that's what you're hoping for?
2017-12-19T19:05:06Z sjl: ok
2017-12-19T19:05:21Z |3b|: is the waiting function running in its own thread already?
2017-12-19T19:05:42Z jmercouris: |3b|: No, but I can create a new thread for it if necessary
2017-12-19T19:05:57Z beach: jmercouris: Sounds like Cocoa/GTK was a bad match for you needs.
2017-12-19T19:06:10Z |3b|: so every other plugin/whatever blocks if it takes a while to do something (including wait for input)?
2017-12-19T19:06:39Z jmercouris: |3b|: There is no function waiting right now, it is on a callback
2017-12-19T19:06:51Z jmercouris: I thought you were talking about a hypothetical waiting function
2017-12-19T19:06:59Z |3b|: i mean in the hypothetical waiting function
2017-12-19T19:07:10Z jackdaniel: then create a channel and enqueue event for it
2017-12-19T19:07:15Z jackdaniel: from the callback
2017-12-19T19:07:23Z jackdaniel: or a thread-safe queue
2017-12-19T19:07:27Z sjl: one option is to write a macro that lets you write code that LOOKS like what you're asking for, but translates into the callback-style code
2017-12-19T19:07:31Z jackdaniel: basically a mailbox
2017-12-19T19:07:52Z jmercouris: sjl: Yeah, there are some things I think (compositors?) that can do this kind of translation but are unreliable or so
2017-12-19T19:08:18Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yeah, it would block while waiting for input, correct
2017-12-19T19:08:29Z |3b|: and it would block all other plugins as well?
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2017-12-19T19:08:57Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: can you expand on that, what do you mean by a channel? each function has it's own channel? how does it prevent code from executing until some evenet?
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2017-12-19T19:09:43Z |3b| is wondering if this is a special case of a problem you would still need to solve (or if already solved could be used here as well)
2017-12-19T19:10:11Z jackdaniel: you have an event-distributing-thread which calls read on a thread-safe queue (blockingly)
2017-12-19T19:10:17Z jackdaniel: and you write to that queue from callbacks
2017-12-19T19:10:44Z jackdaniel: I've used word channel, because lparallel has abstraction for that (with a pool of workers)
2017-12-19T19:11:10Z jackdaniel: but you don't want lparallel (because it requires retrival of results)
2017-12-19T19:11:21Z scymtym: jackdaniel: callbacks are not necessarily like events. they may have to return a value
2017-12-19T19:11:30Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Let me try rephrasing what you said to confirm my understanding
2017-12-19T19:11:39Z shka: channel != queue
2017-12-19T19:12:01Z jmercouris: shka: I think we all know that :), plus we all know what he meant
2017-12-19T19:12:03Z jackdaniel: scymtym: ah, right, then maybe channel could be the right abstraction after all
2017-12-19T19:12:59Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: What's the purpose of the queue?
2017-12-19T19:13:13Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: To make sure events are delivered in-order?
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2017-12-19T19:13:42Z jackdaniel: that's for one, the second is that I had an impression, that you are interested in computation in some kind of singleton loop
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2017-12-19T19:15:56Z jackdaniel: but maybe I misunderstood the problem
2017-12-19T19:16:07Z jmercouris: I'm drawing out a quick sketch one sec
2017-12-19T19:17:53Z sjl: jmercouris: this is the kind of macro I was talking about before: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5a3965b759b43700087a54b5
2017-12-19T19:18:09Z sjl: to be able to write something vaguely normal-looking and have it translated into callback-hell style
2017-12-19T19:18:34Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: https://gist.github.com/a572145629fdb187e5f0b8ac973c5606
2017-12-19T19:19:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I still see an issue though, would the thread with (some-user-function) not freeze?
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2017-12-19T19:20:15Z jmercouris: sjl: You know, that's lookign more appealing, I guess the user is just constrained to using it with a "with-result"
2017-12-19T19:20:31Z jmercouris: It's like a let binding in a way, no?
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2017-12-19T19:21:08Z |3b|: how is some-user-function called?
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2017-12-19T19:21:40Z jmercouris: |3b|: process-keystroke detects a keybinding and does a funcall on it
2017-12-19T19:21:58Z |3b|: and how does waiting for minibuffer input differ from spending 5 seconds doing some image processing or whatever?
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2017-12-19T19:22:22Z |3b|: so if it takes a while without waiting for input your input loop blocks?
2017-12-19T19:22:39Z jmercouris: |3b|: In this hypothetical scenario, yes
2017-12-19T19:22:49Z jmercouris: |3b|: I'll draw another sketch showing how it currently works
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2017-12-19T19:24:23Z |3b|: so minibuffer input is a special case, but some-user-function still needs to be written in CPS if it wants to sleep, read a file from somewhere, etc?
2017-12-19T19:24:38Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yes, I guess so
2017-12-19T19:24:56Z sjl: jmercouris: yes, and you can make it friendlier to allow multiple sequential bindings, e.g. http://paste.stevelosh.com/5a39676a59b43700087a54b6
2017-12-19T19:25:34Z sjl: it's not ideal -- you still have these callback handling things under the hood
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2017-12-19T19:25:37Z jmercouris: |3b|: https://gist.github.com/5466a46071996e3481950f86aa9339c1
2017-12-19T19:25:47Z jmercouris: |3b|: that's the current implementation
2017-12-19T19:25:49Z sjl: but with a threading or nest macro it wouldn't be too horrific
2017-12-19T19:27:06Z jmercouris: I need something more like with-result* so that intermediate results can be used too
2017-12-19T19:27:25Z sjl: I mean, that's what this is.  I just named it without the * for some reason
2017-12-19T19:27:53Z sjl: if you look at the macroexpansion, the second read-from-minibuffer is called with the first result already bound (by the lambda arglist)
2017-12-19T19:27:58Z smurfrobot: Can CL deal with raw memory addresses the way C does? I think I remember someone creating a language like that.
2017-12-19T19:28:32Z beach: No it can't.  Luckily.
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2017-12-19T19:28:48Z beach: I mean, individual implementations can, and FFI can.
2017-12-19T19:29:06Z beach: But there is nothing in the language definition for that.
2017-12-19T19:29:22Z Bike: tying objects to particular addresses would disrupt several gc strategies.
2017-12-19T19:29:28Z fourier: smurfrobot: you can use cffi/your implementation ffi for this.
2017-12-19T19:29:43Z smurfrobot: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/499
2017-12-19T19:29:45Z jmercouris: sjl: Ah shit, I didn't look closely enough, sorry
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2017-12-19T19:29:58Z jmercouris: I'll try using this and see how it comes out, thank you all for your advices
2017-12-19T19:30:27Z smurfrobot: so basically you cannot write stuff like device drivers in CL?
2017-12-19T19:30:31Z fourier: but yes as Bike said do it with only foreign objects, not your lisp objects
2017-12-19T19:30:32Z sjl: jmercouris: though if you want to do non-callback-based stuff in between, you'd need to interleave that with the with-results macros (or use something like fare's nesting macro to flatten it out)
2017-12-19T19:30:57Z fourier: why ? you can of course, using cffi
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2017-12-19T19:31:13Z _death: jmercouris: there are many approaches to this problem.. here's a recent-ish toy https://gist.github.com/death/9ebfb1ae524c9c3dcdf780762ce0362d
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2017-12-19T19:31:36Z jmercouris: _death: I'll check it out later, thank you, I have to go for now!
2017-12-19T19:32:52Z beach: smurfrobot: You can't in C either.
2017-12-19T19:33:14Z smurfrobot: hmm just curious what I could use the language for. I am rather fond of the uniform syntax etc- but interested in problems like binary analysis.
2017-12-19T19:33:33Z beach: smurfrobot: In the case of CL, it requires an extension provided by the implementation.  In the case of C, it requires using unspecified behavior of a particular compiler.
2017-12-19T19:33:51Z fourier: smurfrobot: check this out: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Basic-Pointer-Operations
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2017-12-19T19:34:47Z beach: smurfrobot: What is "binary analysis"?
2017-12-19T19:35:31Z smurfrobot: doing static/dynamic analysis on machine code.
2017-12-19T19:35:51Z Bike: you can do that easy, just read the code into a byte vector or whatever
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2017-12-19T19:35:57Z fourier: ^ exactly
2017-12-19T19:36:07Z fourier: and dont fiddle with ffi then
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2017-12-19T19:36:12Z Bike: well, "easy", a disassembler and so on is nontrivial
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2017-12-19T19:36:35Z smurfrobot: and possibly stuff like instrumentation. i have been looking into stuff like pintools
2017-12-19T19:38:06Z smurfrobot: yeah been looking at tools that do the disassembly for me so i can focus on working on the dataflow etc.
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2017-12-19T19:38:42Z fourier: its too generic. tell exactly what is the problem language-wise you have. there are at least 2 approaches: using ffi to access "foreign" memory and tweak it and 2) read the data into byte-array and do the same stuff as you would do in c/c++ etc
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2017-12-19T19:39:56Z smurfrobot: yeah i think its possible from what you are telling me but might require some effort with ffi and perhaps writing some c code as well.
2017-12-19T19:40:01Z _death: smurfrobot: you can do better than C :)... here's a very recent toy https://gist.github.com/death/5ec259ef473b982898a3c5e36b21b1cd
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2017-12-19T19:41:19Z fourier: smurfrobot: this maybe of interest https://github.com/samanthadoran/potential-disco
2017-12-19T19:41:24Z smurfrobot: i think the CMU guys and berkeley people are doing binary analysis in ML
2017-12-19T19:41:41Z smurfrobot: or ocaml
2017-12-19T19:42:19Z smurfrobot: anyhow thanks.
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2017-12-19T20:01:58Z rpg: smurfrobot: I have definitely seen binary analysis tools in Ocaml.
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2017-12-19T20:29:56Z emaczen: Is pushing a package-name onto *features* a typical practice?
2017-12-19T20:30:14Z emaczen: package/system I guess?
2017-12-19T20:30:43Z XachX: emaczen: I haven't seen it too awful much, but some projects do it.
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2017-12-19T20:32:58Z pjb: emaczen: it is useless: (find-package :name) is already a test for the presence of a package.
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2017-12-19T20:33:40Z pjb: '( #+#.(cl:if (cl:find-package :name) '(:and) '(:or)) name:foo )
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2017-12-19T20:40:44Z |3b|: probably better to use separate files + asdf systems with explicit dependencies rather than enabling optional features at read time anyway... always fun when things behave differently depending on load order
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2017-12-19T20:41:53Z |3b|: some random thing 3 layers deep in the dependency chain from your code decides to add another dependency, and suddenly an unrelated thing loaded later behaves differently, and everything breaks :)
2017-12-19T20:42:49Z |3b|: or gets compiled from a project that uses the optional thing, then you load the fasl from something that doesn't, and again everything breaks
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2017-12-19T20:47:27Z Xach: that happened with wilbur this month
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2017-12-19T20:48:11Z Xach: a dependency loaded cl-ppcre first, and then wilbur, and then when wilbur was loaded solo from fasl, crash with no ppcre package
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2017-12-19T20:48:51Z Xach: not worded quite properly but can explain more if needed
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2017-12-19T20:53:57Z rpg: Xach: I have definitely seen this flavor of error. It's very odd to see code getting failed package errors from systems that (you think) are irrelevant!
2017-12-19T20:55:22Z Xach: rpg: reminds me of an old-school bug that has disappeared. people would sometimes write (in-package foo), and FOO would actually be SOME-PREVIOUSLY-REFERENCED-PACKAGE::FOO, and that would end up in the fasl, and break stuff
2017-12-19T20:55:40Z Xach: now I believe every implementation eagerly stringizes FOO into fasls
2017-12-19T20:56:23Z smurfrobot: the two projects i know of for binary analysis are bap and bitblaze. I think both are written in ML derived languages. I have however been wondering if there are other choices for doing binary analysis. my understanding is that ML is highly regarded in the academic community especially for compiler type stuff. I was wondering if lisp could be adapted for this as well.
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2017-12-19T20:58:08Z |3b|: yeah, looks like wilbur has a read-time optional dep on cl-ppcre
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2017-12-19T20:58:59Z jmercouris: sjl: I know what happened now, I had somehow entered your previous paste in twice, so I didn't see the new one you sent
2017-12-19T20:59:10Z jmercouris: sjl: I'm sorry about that!
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2017-12-19T21:03:02Z jmercouris: _death: That's an interesting example you've got there, I don't understand where you make a new thread though
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2017-12-19T21:06:09Z _death: jmercouris: I don't.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_multitasking
2017-12-19T21:06:49Z jmercouris: _death: So your simply demonstrating a server client setup here?
2017-12-19T21:07:32Z _death: jmercouris: that's one example of communicating processes.. the other I have there is the ping-pong example..
2017-12-19T21:07:39Z jmercouris: My challenge is a little different and as I will have to do something similar, but with threads, or follow sjl's compositor approach
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2017-12-19T21:08:25Z jmercouris: |3b|: The more I think about it, the more I think that all processing should block on user scripts
2017-12-19T21:08:37Z _death: jmercouris: you could have your system schedule another task when one waits for IO
2017-12-19T21:08:37Z jmercouris: |3b|: s/scripts/commands
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2017-12-19T21:09:05Z jmercouris: _death: Yeah, that's why I thought maybe I should just launch all user commands in new threads
2017-12-19T21:09:30Z jmercouris: and then just create a semaphore for user inupt, and then release upon the RET key
2017-12-19T21:09:32Z |3b|: if only 1 can run at once no matter how long it takes, then just having a dedicated thread for them sounds easiest
2017-12-19T21:09:35Z jmercouris: I also really like the with macro though
2017-12-19T21:10:12Z jmercouris: |3b|: What about 1 thread per user invoked command
2017-12-19T21:10:13Z |3b|: then it can just send a request to UI thread and wait for response (with whatever IPC method you prefer)
2017-12-19T21:11:00Z jmercouris: |3b|: So If user type input X -> function Y, it will launch a new thread and execute whatever stack that command invokes in that thread
2017-12-19T21:11:03Z |3b|: depends on whether you already have something for dispatching work to other threads i guess
2017-12-19T21:11:17Z jmercouris: then if user type input Z -> function Q WHILE function Y is still processing, open yet another thread
2017-12-19T21:11:38Z |3b|: if they need to be serialized you would probably still need a separate thread for serializing them
2017-12-19T21:11:46Z jmercouris: |3b|: Is there not an easy way in Cl to say something like (with-new-thread (...))?
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2017-12-19T21:12:07Z |3b|: problem is what happens if you get another request to run a user script while that one is running
2017-12-19T21:12:19Z _death: jmercouris: the point is that you have your own scheduler, not the operating system's, and you don't need threads to achieve multitasking, and this can be simpler for the modules.. even if you actually want preemptive multitasking, threads may be too low-level.. channels/queues have been mentioned..
2017-12-19T21:12:21Z jmercouris: That's fine, it should launch a new thread
2017-12-19T21:12:28Z |3b|: so 2 running at once?
2017-12-19T21:12:38Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yes, why not?
2017-12-19T21:13:24Z |3b|: "the more I think that all processing should block on user scripts" suggests it shouldn't
2017-12-19T21:13:44Z |3b|: script1 thread is running => blocked so don't run script2 yet
2017-12-19T21:13:44Z jmercouris: I'm just afraid of turning into Emacs and being super slow
2017-12-19T21:13:49Z jmercouris: though that is the simplest model to program
2017-12-19T21:14:09Z jmercouris: I just meant that all invokations of some command should be blocking for and serially on their own threads
2017-12-19T21:14:24Z jmercouris: for example if Command A requires some network IO that blocks, fine, no problem, it is on its own thread
2017-12-19T21:14:37Z jmercouris: if command B is simultaneously blocked waiting on user input, again, no problem, on their own threads
2017-12-19T21:15:01Z |3b|: ok, for that you probably want a thread per command (or more likely a thread pool, so you don't create threads for tiny things)
2017-12-19T21:15:16Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yeah, that's what I've been trying to say :D
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2017-12-19T21:15:31Z jmercouris: |3b|: So what do you think though, sjl macro way, or thread pool way?
2017-12-19T21:15:54Z jmercouris: Maybe I'll start with the sjl macro way as it will be easy to integrate into my system, and try the thread pool on an experimental branch after the GTK release
2017-12-19T21:16:36Z jmercouris: _death: Why do you think threads are too low level?
2017-12-19T21:16:49Z jmercouris: _death: Is there a lot of overhead in CL? do lightweight threads exist in CL?
2017-12-19T21:17:05Z |3b|: CL doesn't have a concept of threads (or processes)
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2017-12-19T21:17:21Z |3b|: most implementations use OS threads
2017-12-19T21:17:54Z |3b| thinks cmucl does/did something else, not sure how it compared though
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2017-12-19T21:19:40Z |3b|: macro to do CPS transform seems reasonable though, if it handles your use case
2017-12-19T21:19:43Z jmercouris: _death: On the other hand a scheduler souds like a lot of work
2017-12-19T21:20:23Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yeah, I don't have to cover the general cas at this time with the CPS, just input, if in time I find users writing commands with other blocking operations, then the thread pool solution may make sense
2017-12-19T21:20:48Z |3b|: either way you might need to be careful with any interaction scripts might make with shared state (like page contents), though amount and type of care probably differs
2017-12-19T21:21:19Z _death: jmercouris: oh it's just hard, bitter experience.. there are powerful abstractions that are much simpler to use for most purposes.. see lparallel's for example
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2017-12-19T21:22:53Z |3b|: which now that i think about it might be a problem with hidden CPS transforms, might not interact as expected with specials or with-foo macros
2017-12-19T21:23:43Z jmercouris: |3b|: I was thinking users using that with* macro might make assumptions that don't hold true, consider this example: https://gist.github.com/472724f1e5a11b99dfad3ac3a987538c
2017-12-19T21:23:45Z |3b|: (with-open-file (...) (with-results ...)) for example
2017-12-19T21:24:22Z |3b|: right, or (let ((*global* ...)) (with-results ... *global*))
2017-12-19T21:24:49Z _death: jmercouris: there are libraries like green-threads that use call/cc (in turn implemented using CPS conversion, at least in arnesi)
2017-12-19T21:25:42Z jmercouris: _death: What is cc?
2017-12-19T21:26:12Z _death: call/cc = call-with-current-continuation
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2017-12-19T21:26:58Z jmercouris: |3b|: Maybe best to just publish some disclaimer
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2017-12-19T21:27:11Z jmercouris: about the macro
2017-12-19T21:28:39Z jmercouris: how does emacs read from the minibuffer as a blocking operation in a function without freezing the UI?
2017-12-19T21:28:49Z jmercouris: surely they've solved this issue
2017-12-19T21:29:39Z shka: jmercouris: … with seprate thread for input
2017-12-19T21:29:47Z shka: i already told you so
2017-12-19T21:29:53Z jmercouris: shka: What? when?
2017-12-19T21:29:58Z shka: yesterday!
2017-12-19T21:30:06Z jmercouris: I don't remember that honestly
2017-12-19T21:30:07Z jmercouris: I'm sorry
2017-12-19T21:30:32Z jmercouris: shka: Even so, if the input is a separate thread, all functions are still blocked
2017-12-19T21:30:32Z shka: you don't do logic and user input on the same thread, and you need event loop
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2017-12-19T21:30:45Z jmercouris: shka: That's not possible
2017-12-19T21:30:49Z shka: god dammit
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2017-12-19T21:31:00Z shka: read literally ANY tutorial on gui programming
2017-12-19T21:31:09Z jmercouris: shka: I know several GUI systems
2017-12-19T21:31:28Z shka: everyone with small exception of CLIM is doing it in the same way
2017-12-19T21:31:31Z |3b|: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Recursive-Editing.html ?
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2017-12-19T21:34:16Z jmercouris looking for emacs documentation about input
2017-12-19T21:34:40Z _death: the chapter (command loop) is what you're looking for
2017-12-19T21:34:54Z jmercouris: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Text-from-Minibuffer.html#Text-from-Minibuffer
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2017-12-19T21:35:15Z jmercouris: shka: look for string: read-string prompt initial history default inherit
2017-12-19T21:35:35Z jmercouris: see that? code WITH LOGIC is nested within some code WITH USER INPUT
2017-12-19T21:35:44Z jmercouris: unless there's some deep magic I'm not understanding going on under the hood
2017-12-19T21:35:46Z |3b|: in particular "Minibuffer input is a special kind of recursive editing."
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2017-12-19T21:36:05Z shka: jmercouris: why do you expect gui to freeze?
2017-12-19T21:36:45Z jmercouris: because the statement collecting the input cannot return until the input is satisfied
2017-12-19T21:37:02Z jmercouris: |3b|: Where do you see that line?
2017-12-19T21:37:10Z shka: call-interactively ?
2017-12-19T21:37:32Z |3b|: in the link i pasted to Recursive-Editing page in emacs manual
2017-12-19T21:38:57Z shka: jmercouris: thing is, there is plenty of ways to deal with this issue
2017-12-19T21:39:10Z |3b|: so main loop calls user  elisp code, elisp code calls function to get input from minibuffer, that runs a new copy of the main loop, which runs until it has full input, then exits that instance of main loop back to user function, which does whatever then returns back to outer main loop
2017-12-19T21:40:42Z jmercouris: |3b|: Seems quite convoluted, that also explains the trouble with only having 1 minibuffer at at ime
2017-12-19T21:41:11Z |3b|: yeah, not sure i'd suggest that strategy for new code
2017-12-19T21:41:32Z |3b|: (though not sure if i have any specific objections to it either)
2017-12-19T21:41:50Z jmercouris: I guess for now the macro is okay, with some caution to end users about how it works
2017-12-19T21:42:09Z jmercouris: and still later on move to either thread pool, or self scheduling/event loop stuff
2017-12-19T21:42:28Z jmercouris: I'm sure I will change my mind a million times until then, but the macro is a very good "interim" solution
2017-12-19T21:43:14Z jmercouris: or maybe "green-threads" which _death suggested, if that turns out to be a good idea, not sure
2017-12-19T21:43:43Z |3b|: don't forget to think about what happens if someone hits a hotkey that calls a user script while entering response to a prompt from a user script :)
2017-12-19T21:44:18Z jmercouris: |3b|: Yeah, I haven't tried that yet even in my current implementation, le tme see what happens
2017-12-19T21:44:24Z _death: 3b: I think such manifestation of recursive editing is disabled by default in emacs because it can be confusing, no?
2017-12-19T21:44:39Z |3b|: _death: which?
2017-12-19T21:44:44Z jmercouris: seems my current implementation handles it just fine, it simply "cancels" the previous operation and works on the new one
2017-12-19T21:44:46Z _death: for example M-x M-x
2017-12-19T21:45:04Z jmercouris: Yeah, I will disable that permanently because I think it's a terrible idea
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2017-12-19T21:45:12Z jmercouris: e.g. I will not implement it :D
2017-12-19T21:46:46Z jmercouris: I think the problem/solution space is pretty clear to me now mentally, once again, thank you all for your inputs
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2017-12-19T21:47:55Z _death: did you unblock
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2017-12-19T21:49:46Z jmercouris: _death: Did I unblock what?
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2017-12-19T21:51:55Z _death: yourself, after we entered our inputs to your mind
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2017-12-19T21:53:19Z jmercouris: _death: Ah yes, indeed :)
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2017-12-19T21:54:00Z _death: *mindbuffer
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2017-12-19T21:54:35Z _death: guess it's a M-joke
2017-12-19T21:54:55Z jmercouris: _death: There's no joke key, it'd be more like M-x joke
2017-12-19T21:55:10Z jmercouris: (defun joke () (interactive) (...))
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2017-12-19T22:08:45Z jasom: jmercouris: what lame keyboard are you using that has no joke key?
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2017-12-19T22:25:44Z jmercouris: jasom: some cherry keyboard I found on amazon
2017-12-19T22:25:57Z jmercouris: it was hard finding an american layout keyboard in germany
2017-12-19T22:26:33Z jmercouris: I've remapped M-x to S-SPC
2017-12-19T22:27:06Z jmercouris: I mean s-SPC*
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2017-12-19T22:28:39Z rme: I once had to try to use a French keyboard instead of a US keyboard, and I just could not type at all.
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2017-12-19T22:29:28Z pjb: rme: that said, only A<->Q, W<->Z, and ;<->M are swapped.
2017-12-19T22:30:11Z pjb: rme: that is, for text, you could do it; it's when it comes to programming that it gets harder, with all the special characters and digits in different places.
2017-12-19T22:30:14Z rme: numbers and parens are elsewhere, too
2017-12-19T22:31:06Z rme: right
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2017-12-19T22:33:08Z rme: It'd be nice to have é and è keys when typing French, but using dead keys on a US keyboard is good enough for me.
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2017-12-19T22:44:58Z pjb: rme: not really: you don't type only French; you can type any number of languages, so it's much better to have dead-keys and be able to compose all the accents.  Also, on the AZERTY layout there's this ù key that is used only in ONE word in French! (où = where; ou = or).
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2017-12-19T22:55:54Z rlp10: is there a nice text markup library in CL (similar to scribble in Racket)?
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2017-12-19T22:58:28Z pjb: cf. ccldoc
2017-12-19T22:59:10Z rlp10: pjb: thank you! i'll check it out
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2017-12-19T23:01:35Z pjb: rlp10: and of course: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=markup  but I know you already searched cliki.
2017-12-19T23:02:29Z rlp10: pjb: I'm new here I'm afraid, but I'll search there first next time.
2017-12-19T23:02:52Z pjb: rlp10: well, cliki is mentionned in the /topic, so…
2017-12-19T23:03:23Z rlp10: what's the /topic?
2017-12-19T23:03:30Z pjb: type: /topic RET
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2017-12-19T23:05:17Z rlp10: nothing happens?
2017-12-19T23:05:35Z pjb: Then you have a strange erc client; you should change it.
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2017-12-19T23:05:46Z rlp10: erc?
2017-12-19T23:05:48Z pjb:  /topic would display:    *** Topic for #lisp: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp, http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11
2017-12-19T23:05:48Z pjb:  
2017-12-19T23:06:03Z pjb: Yes, I use erc; there are several irc client for emacs.
2017-12-19T23:07:08Z pjb: also, the topic should be the first thing displayed when you join a new channel…
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2017-12-19T23:11:19Z rlp10: Oh it makes sense now. When you said I had a strange "erc client", you meant that I had a strange "IRC client". You would recommend ERC, which is what you use.
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2017-12-19T23:11:52Z pjb: oh, sorry, yes I meant IRC; but since I use erc, it mistype that often.
2017-12-19T23:12:13Z rme: https://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc talks about ccldoc.  ccldoc's official repository is https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc
2017-12-19T23:12:29Z pjb: and phoe ported it, and it's now in quicklisp.
2017-12-19T23:13:07Z rme: Oh, I didn't know that.
2017-12-19T23:13:20Z rme: (that it had been added to quicklisp, that is)
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2017-12-19T23:17:36Z lerax: Hey guys, how work adding a independent software distribution on QuickLisp? There is some place with this well documented? I didn't find on the main page of quicklisp official website.
2017-12-19T23:18:00Z pjb: There's a blog entry about that somewhere.
2017-12-19T23:18:11Z lerax: https://github.com/borodust/cl-bodge like this
2017-12-19T23:18:21Z lerax: I'm interested where exactly is this 'somewhere'.
2017-12-19T23:18:34Z pjb: I were you, I'd use google.
2017-12-19T23:18:35Z lerax: Would be nice if someone here knows.
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2017-12-19T23:19:26Z pjb: But you can always send me 0.0006 BTC, and I'll do the search for you.
2017-12-19T23:19:31Z lerax: pjb: thanks, this really help a lot.
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2017-12-19T23:20:55Z pjb: Also, there's a #quicklisp
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2017-12-19T23:30:56Z earl-ducaine: Hi lerax: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html   has two important links.
2017-12-19T23:31:22Z lerax: earl-ducaine: thank you for this.
2017-12-19T23:32:08Z lerax: "You will be able to make your own private repositories of Quicklisp software (called dists), but it's not documented right now. "
2017-12-19T23:32:17Z lerax: Well... this doesn't help too much.
2017-12-19T23:32:19Z lerax: But thanks.
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2017-12-19T23:32:56Z earl-ducaine: I think the bigest criteria are: 1) make sure everything is free and you have basic project info set up; 2) make sure that the project build under quicklisp using the :verbose t setting; 3) make sure that it runs under at least 2 (preferably more) Lisps, eg. CCL and SBCL
2017-12-19T23:32:58Z lerax: (I'm no trying publishing a package, but creating a private "channel" distribution of personal softwares)
2017-12-19T23:33:10Z earl-ducaine: Oh... haha... ic.
2017-12-19T23:33:19Z lerax: * I'm not *
2017-12-19T23:33:29Z lerax: Yes, I know.
2017-12-19T23:33:41Z lerax: I have a published package on Quicklisp already. The problem is another thing.
2017-12-19T23:33:47Z earl-ducaine: I thought you were wanting to *add* https://github.com/borodust/cl-bodge  to the main repo.
2017-12-19T23:34:14Z earl-ducaine: You know that you can add a repo locally to quicklisp, right?
2017-12-19T23:34:30Z earl-ducaine: i.e. adding a sym link under quicklisp/local
2017-12-19T23:34:35Z lerax: Not actually, it was just a example that cl-bodge create a distribution as you can see on #Installation. But I didn't find docs about that.
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2017-12-19T23:34:58Z lerax: earl-ducaine: yes, you can. but this is not what I want too.
2017-12-19T23:35:00Z earl-ducaine: Yeah, totally misunderstood.
2017-12-19T23:35:07Z lerax: See the #Installation of cl-bodge
2017-12-19T23:35:11Z lerax: ;; add cl-bodge distribution into quicklisp
2017-12-19T23:35:11Z lerax: (ql-dist:install-dist "http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge.txt")
2017-12-19T23:35:13Z lerax: ^ this
2017-12-19T23:35:20Z earl-ducaine: Just wanted to make sure you weren't missing the easy solution.
2017-12-19T23:35:35Z lerax: Yes, thanks for your attention!
2017-12-19T23:36:03Z lerax: This is just curious for me because I didn't find any documentation about that. There is some blog or repo about that, but completly outdated and obscure.
2017-12-19T23:36:26Z lerax: https://github.com/orivej/quickdist like that
2017-12-19T23:37:12Z lerax: But I was expecting (as always) a better documentation about that. But if doesn't exists, I'm ok with that. There is the reason I asked here instead... well, there is no much choice when you didn't find something.
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2017-12-19T23:38:16Z earl-ducaine: definitely, having experimental/unstable elpa packages has turned out to be very productive for the emacs community.
2017-12-19T23:39:17Z lerax: Yes, like melpa.
2017-12-19T23:40:05Z lerax: I use, I like it.
2017-12-19T23:42:00Z Xach: lerax: i am working on documentation
2017-12-19T23:42:31Z Xach: i think gigamonkey wrote a dist-creating project, too, a few years ago
2017-12-19T23:42:37Z lerax: Xach: good to know! I'll be glad reading it :)
2017-12-19T23:43:04Z lerax: Xach: this is interesting, I'll make a search later.
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2017-12-19T23:44:46Z Xach: it is not super complex (i don't think) but it is not written down anywhere but in code
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2017-12-19T23:51:45Z Shinmera: You can make dists with quickdist.
2017-12-19T23:53:13Z Xach: as previously mentioned
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2017-12-19T23:53:23Z Shinmera: Oh, missed that message. My bad.
2017-12-19T23:53:30Z emaczen: wow, I'm having a horrible day if I couldn't think of #'find-package...
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2017-12-20T00:01:24Z aeth: What's Quicklisp's position on projects that only work with other projects? e.g. climacs, an emacs-like editor, is in Quicklisp so would Quicklisp also host climacs packages if someone ported a bunch of Emacs packages to climacs or something?
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2017-12-20T00:02:20Z aeth: I don't think that particular example is going to happen, but it's definitely possible that some application ecosystem or Rails-like framework ecosystem could happen.
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2017-12-20T00:03:57Z Xach: aeth: like, non-lisp code that loads into climacs?
2017-12-20T00:04:10Z Xach: hang on, got to read
2017-12-20T00:04:26Z aeth: Xach: well, that was going to be my follow up
2017-12-20T00:05:54Z aeth: Something along the lines of: What if someone actually did port Emacs Lisp or Guile plugins to some Common Lisp editor, so the asdf systems were thin wrappers over foreign code?
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2017-12-20T00:08:24Z aeth: I'm not sure if that particular thing is going to happen, but I think it's inevitable that non-CL plugins for CL things is coming. There have been some attempts, just not any particularly notable ones, yet.
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2017-12-20T03:54:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-20T03:56:30Z aeth: oh, wow, it really is hard to do a flet without eventually turning it into labels
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2017-12-20T04:13:23Z earl-ducaine: Aeth: how so?
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2017-12-20T04:59:32Z aeth: earl-ducaine: If you put more than 5 functions in an flet, you probably want to start referring to other functions within that same scope, which labels permits and flet does not
2017-12-20T05:02:00Z jack_rabbit: If you are doing that, is that not usually a use-case for a separate file for organization rather than flet-ing?
2017-12-20T05:04:52Z pjb: Depends. The point of flet and labels is that you actually write closures, not mere functions.
2017-12-20T05:05:43Z jack_rabbit: That's true.
2017-12-20T05:07:02Z aeth: jack_rabbit: Consider repeated calls to a function with a lot of arguments, where a lot of the calls have arguments in common. Creating closures with flet/labels is one way to simplify this code.
2017-12-20T05:08:03Z jack_rabbit: Sure, I understand the usefulness of closures.
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2017-12-20T05:12:58Z aeth: And in this case, labels is better than flet as soon as you have enough to see an even larger pattern.
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2017-12-20T05:47:28Z jack_rabbit: What about passing a data structure around to capture the state rather than relying on closures or passing a bunch of individual values?
2017-12-20T05:47:29Z borodust: lerax: i'm using quickdist for making cl-bodge distribution
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2017-12-20T05:48:00Z borodust: lerax: and, basically, have no idea myself what magic it actually does
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2017-12-20T05:52:25Z aeth: jack_rabbit: That depends entirely on the program.
2017-12-20T05:52:34Z jack_rabbit: sure.
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2017-12-20T06:02:26Z aeth: Common Lisp is definitely a language where there's a dozen roughly equivalent ways to do anything
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2017-12-20T06:14:48Z aeth: In this case, I'm drawing shapes, and I decided in the shape API to go with lots of arguments rather than having lots of temporary point objects.
2017-12-20T06:15:56Z aeth: I probably went overboard and have too *few* objects in the current API, though, so it's a bit messy. I got rid of some of that by using matrices in places.
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2017-12-20T07:11:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a generic way to get a value for CONCATENATE's first argument that matches the type of the first of the sequences you're concatenating?
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2017-12-20T07:12:44Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: type-of?
2017-12-20T07:13:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That doesn't work
2017-12-20T07:13:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. something like (concatenate (type-of seq1) seq1 seq2 seq3)
2017-12-20T07:13:31Z shka: specialized vectors?
2017-12-20T07:14:03Z shka: why it does not work?
2017-12-20T07:14:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, the issue is that the type it gives is too specialized: it includes the length of seq1
2017-12-20T07:14:25Z shka: right
2017-12-20T07:14:37Z shka: well, it is though!
2017-12-20T07:14:52Z shka: depends how specialized your type is supposed to be
2017-12-20T07:15:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: in the case of vectors, it would have to be (vector (+ (length seq1) (length seq2)...))
2017-12-20T07:15:20Z shka: if just list or vector, it is easy to do
2017-12-20T07:15:33Z shka: i see
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2017-12-20T07:15:47Z shka: you will have to do it manually
2017-12-20T07:15:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Obviously, I can just do an ad-hoc typecase or something, but that's ugly
2017-12-20T07:16:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess I could just make my new method include the result-type
2017-12-20T07:16:47Z aeth: Looks like the perfect use for this library: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2017-12-20T07:16:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: And pass it up a level
2017-12-20T07:17:12Z aeth: just have type-based dispatch
2017-12-20T07:17:22Z aeth: no typecase
2017-12-20T07:19:02Z shka: aeth: won't do
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2017-12-20T07:19:08Z aeth: shka: why not?
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2017-12-20T07:19:38Z shka: because variable length of arguments, and he wants to have size in the type
2017-12-20T07:19:48Z shka: imho it is overcomplicated
2017-12-20T07:19:54Z aeth: no, the problem is that he gets the size in type-of
2017-12-20T07:20:05Z aeth: specialization-store can dispatch on e.g. simple-vector
2017-12-20T07:20:53Z aeth: (defspecialization foo ((v1 simple-vector) (v2 simple-vector)) (concatenate 'simple-vector v1 v2))
2017-12-20T07:21:12Z aeth: Well, you probably want that inlined because it's trivial and unchanging and the inline will probably be more efficient.
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2017-12-20T07:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, if I were going to do dispatch, I'd just use generic functions :)
2017-12-20T07:21:24Z shka: (defun foo (seq &rest more-seq))?
2017-12-20T07:21:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: speed doesn't matter too much, and there's a reasonable mapping from class -> result-type
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2017-12-20T07:21:57Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: but CLOS generics do not dispatch on types and the classes aren't (afaik) portable, so that's not useful for numbers or sequences, hence specialization-store
2017-12-20T07:22:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I only really need vector/list/etc.
2017-12-20T07:22:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: And those are portable, afaik
2017-12-20T07:22:33Z aeth: Actually, just noticed, in my foo example, you could probably macroify it to generate all the functions
2017-12-20T07:23:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. LIST is a class: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_list.htm#list
2017-12-20T07:23:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: As is VECTOR: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm#sequence
2017-12-20T07:24:26Z aeth: If they have to match in type (but you'd have to generate a name instead of foo): `(defspecialization (foo :inline t) ((sequence-1 ,sequence-type) (sequence-2 ,sequence-type)) (concatenate ,sequence-type sequence-1 sequence-2)))
2017-12-20T07:24:36Z aeth: Surprisingly concise and elegant in specialization-store.
2017-12-20T07:24:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it makes more sense to me, just to have a simple function that goes from thing -> symbol
2017-12-20T07:24:44Z aeth: Then you'd just run that over a list of sequence types
2017-12-20T07:25:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (concatenate (sequence-type-like seq1) seq1 seq2 seq3...)
2017-12-20T07:25:48Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: all you need to do is replace the length with a wildcard, actually.
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2017-12-20T07:26:31Z aeth: like (simple-vector 3) -> (simple-vector *) and (simple-array single-float (3)) -> (simple-array single-float (*))
2017-12-20T07:26:55Z aeth: So you can parse it in type-of
2017-12-20T07:27:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, on sbcl there is the added wrinkle that it's possible for something besides LIST and VECTOR to extend SEQUENCE
2017-12-20T07:27:38Z aeth: in the latter case it's the caaddr and in the former case it's just the cadr
2017-12-20T07:27:53Z aeth: well
2017-12-20T07:27:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because sbcl implements the extensible sequences proposal
2017-12-20T07:28:05Z aeth: extensible sequences is what should be the case.
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2017-12-20T07:28:43Z aeth: lazy sequences, immutable sequences, very niche sequences like perhaps ordered hash tables or whatever.
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2017-12-20T07:29:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I have a package of my own that allows for some of this
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2017-12-20T07:29:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. rss feeds where you can map/reduce the entries
2017-12-20T07:29:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: etc.
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2017-12-20T07:36:18Z aeth: if you don't need to support custom sequences, though, I wouldn't.
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2017-12-20T07:38:15Z aeth: I think for 1D simple-arrays it's always going to be either the cadr (simple-vector) or the caaddr (everything else) so that's just three cases: list, simple-vector, simple-array
2017-12-20T07:38:26Z aeth: (1D simple-array)
2017-12-20T07:39:43Z aeth: And then I think it's the caddr for the other kinds of vectors (vector whatever-type size)
2017-12-20T07:39:51Z aeth: So actually 4 cases
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2017-12-20T07:42:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool
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2017-12-20T07:42:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I probably should put this into my utility library, because it's something I've often wanted
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2017-12-20T07:44:31Z aeth: whoops, there's also bit vectors
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2017-12-20T07:46:19Z aeth: Something like this: (let ((seq (make-array 2 :element-type 'character :adjustable t))) (etypecase seq (list 'list) (simple-bit-vector '(simple-bit-vector *)) (bit-vector '(bit-vector *)) (simple-vector '(simple-vector *)) (simple-array `(simple-array ,(cadr (type-of seq)) (*))) (vector `(vector ,(cadr (type-of seq)) *))))
2017-12-20T07:47:28Z aeth: the cadr will get the type for simple-array and (not simple) vector, with vector having to come last because of all of the special vectors
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2017-12-20T07:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: there's also simple-string
2017-12-20T07:49:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: and string
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2017-12-20T07:56:23Z aeth: Is it non-portable what you get for those?
2017-12-20T07:56:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, there's a specification
2017-12-20T07:56:53Z aeth: (type-of "hello") => (simple-array character (5)) ; in SBCL with *print-case* as :downcase
2017-12-20T07:57:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I'm going to go the prescriptive way: you do a typecase and put the most specific types first
2017-12-20T07:57:19Z aeth: you should probably handle the strings just in case though
2017-12-20T07:57:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: So that the output of the function can be as interesting as possibe
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2017-12-20T07:59:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could even support extensible sequences by falling back to a generic function call
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2017-12-20T08:02:02Z aeth: Although I think the macro on top of specialization-store implementation quickly becomes more concise than the typecase approach
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2017-12-20T08:13:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh, paste.lisp.org is gone?
2017-12-20T08:15:00Z aeth: unfortunately, yes
2017-12-20T08:15:22Z aeth: github gists or gitlab snippets are probably the way to go for now
2017-12-20T08:15:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: What happened?
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2017-12-20T08:16:17Z aeth: well, someone finally noticed a few months ago that almost every post to paste.lisp.org was spam because the captcha was ridiculously weak, like 012354 in a monospace font you can probably parse automatically.
2017-12-20T08:16:34Z aeth: It was like that for a while.
2017-12-20T08:16:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh
2017-12-20T08:16:57Z aeth: Pretty much every no-registration thing is full of spam, and a lot of registration things, too. e.g. just about any mediawiki has to deal with tons of spam accounts spamming things
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2017-12-20T08:17:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder how much work it would be to plug in a decent captcha
2017-12-20T08:17:38Z aeth: what I think it should do is require bot-based authentication since the main use is for IRC
2017-12-20T08:18:04Z aeth: so /msg some-bot please and it'll give me a URL that creates a session, no registration required, but if I spam they'll trace it to my IRC nick. And it's too complicated for general spam bots to bother with
2017-12-20T08:19:00Z aeth: I think that's simple enough that I could write it in a weekend or so, depending on what system the site uses
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2017-12-20T08:23:24Z aeth: e.g. a link to a page called (format t "~9,'0x~%" (random #x1000000000)) or something
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2017-12-20T09:29:10Z Shinmera: In the meantime there's http://plaster.tymoon.eu for pasting.
2017-12-20T09:29:30Z Shinmera: Beside the brazillion other paste services of course
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2017-12-20T10:00:37Z francogrex: cffi question (also some sqlite)
2017-12-20T10:01:37Z francogrex: https://codepaste.net/56qjnv in that snipper, on line 6 when I (cffi:foreign-free buf) which I suppose I should, the results are not maintained anymore, when I remove that, I have what I need. but
2017-12-20T10:01:45Z francogrex: I am afraid of memory leaks
2017-12-20T10:01:48Z francogrex: how come?
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2017-12-20T10:05:25Z flip214: francogrex: you do know about clsql-sqlite3, right?
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2017-12-20T10:16:04Z francogrex: flip214: yes but it doesn't have the capacity to create_function
2017-12-20T10:16:14Z francogrex: it should be done in C
2017-12-20T10:16:55Z francogrex: hence using ffis
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2017-12-20T10:20:59Z francogrex: sqliteFree() also exists...
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2017-12-20T13:40:00Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/vkcHLRm3
2017-12-20T13:40:12Z phoe: Can someone tell me why Qtools's readtable leaks into LPARALLEL?
2017-12-20T13:41:53Z Shinmera: The only guess I have is if you didn't use in-readtable somewhere and rather setf the readtable. But if I remember correctly ASDF should take care of even that.
2017-12-20T13:42:24Z phoe: No SETF *READTABLE* in my code.
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2017-12-20T13:42:58Z phoe: Also, (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lparallel :force t) succeeds, and afterwards my system loads properly.
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2017-12-20T13:43:26Z phoe: I am now tempted to open up a very clean Lisp environment, try loading Qtools, and then LPARALLEL.
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2017-12-20T13:46:54Z Shinmera: What's stopping you
2017-12-20T13:47:06Z phoe: I'm working.
2017-12-20T13:47:14Z phoe: :(
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2017-12-20T13:49:36Z Xach_: new asdf broke sly, but sly is already fixed, phew.
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2017-12-20T13:51:11Z mfiano: Xach_: I'm still waiting for him to get to this https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/issues/135
2017-12-20T13:52:26Z Xach_: interesting.
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2017-12-20T15:11:09Z papachan: hi, is there something like tensorflow in CL ?
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2017-12-20T15:28:33Z Xach_: papachan: what is tensorflow?
2017-12-20T15:28:59Z Fade: it's google's machine learning library
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2017-12-20T15:34:04Z Xach_: mgl is a machine learning library for lisp
2017-12-20T15:34:23Z papachan: Xach_ ah ok will get a look at it. thanks
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2017-12-20T17:31:57Z osune: Hoi, I want to dispatch by strings of the form "/cmd foo bar" where "cmd" can be any string. Currently I dispatch via cond and predicates returned by a cl-pprce match. Is there a better solution? E.g. In Python I would probably use a dict([('/cmd', cmd_handler_fn)]) to match and dispatch. The cond solution makes me uneasy because, if understood correctly, chls says it evaluates each test-form until one returns true. While the Python
2017-12-20T17:31:57Z osune: solution would be just a hash lookup. I'm sure I could do the same in CL with a hash table using equal as test. But I lack the experience to tell what the better style would be in CL or if I'm missing something entirely.
2017-12-20T17:33:30Z beach: A hash table sounds fine in CL as well.
2017-12-20T17:33:32Z jmercouris: osune: You are trying to take a prefix to a string and use that as a funcall?
2017-12-20T17:33:45Z jmercouris: osune: As beach said, you could also use a hash table
2017-12-20T17:33:58Z warweasle: osune: The has would work fine. You could extend the repl (meta-circular evaluator). Or you can use a stack to collect arguements and then evaluate when you have them all.
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2017-12-20T17:34:33Z jmercouris: osune: Forget my first message, I understood what you were trying to do but express it improperly
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2017-12-20T17:34:59Z jmercouris: What is wrong with me today, "Forget my first message, I understood what you were trying to do but expressed it improperly"
2017-12-20T17:35:22Z jmercouris: Speaking many languages is a double edged sword it seems
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2017-12-20T17:36:08Z osune: jmercouris: I think you are assuming a more complicated problem. Think more of an IRC bot. Sorry, english isn't my native language either; so you meant I worded it improperly ?
2017-12-20T17:36:10Z warweasle: 10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
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2017-12-20T17:37:02Z osune: beach: jmercouris: thanks. I'll go with the hash table then.
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2017-12-20T17:37:21Z tfb: osune: if you have a finite number of commands you know at compile-time (and if you don't want to do some incremental-reading thing) then interning them & CASE / ECASE might be enough
2017-12-20T17:37:55Z tfb: osune: CASE can be fast (can be implemented with a hash table, say)
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2017-12-20T17:39:43Z osune: tfb: It's finite. But I currently I don't know how many. So I would prefer a solution where I can in a central "place" easily add/remove dispatchers I guess. I'll take a look at the CASE variant.
2017-12-20T17:39:53Z warweasle: tfb: There's an old article which compares lists with hash tables. Lists are faster for around 8-12 entries, after which hashes are faster for lookups.
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2017-12-20T17:41:13Z tfb: warweasle: Somewhere I have some code which does this benchmark for the implementation at compile time and then changes representation dynamically...
2017-12-20T17:41:39Z rpg: warweasle: I have heard rumors of implementations natively doing the optimization that tfb refers to.
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2017-12-20T17:42:16Z warweasle: There are so many cool things hidden on people's hard drives.
2017-12-20T17:42:24Z tfb: rpg: pretty sure Genera did that (it made noises which sounded like it did anyway)
2017-12-20T17:43:02Z tfb: warweasle: well, I think the main cool thing is that in Lisp you *can* do tricks like this, because you always have the language to play with
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2017-12-20T17:43:52Z jmercouris: osune: I think you worded it just fine, english is one of my first languages, that's not why I'm having these issues :D
2017-12-20T17:45:27Z rpg: tfb: I have a vague notion that Allegro does this, but could be a faulty memory.
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2017-12-20T17:46:07Z rpg: osune: many lisp implementations offer extensions to the standard for hash-tables that contain strings only.
2017-12-20T17:48:29Z osune: rpg: is this an "out-of-the-box" thing, if I use (declare ...) forms? Or something I have a look at the sbcl manual?
2017-12-20T17:48:53Z Bike: an equal test should be fine, no?
2017-12-20T17:49:05Z tfb: rpg: I wouldn't be surprised if they did
2017-12-20T17:49:43Z rpg: Bike: My impression is that EQUAL hash tables can be inefficient, because you can't exploit features of the data items in the hash function (or if you do, you end up needing some type checking at run time)
2017-12-20T17:50:16Z rpg: But yes, EQUAL is what you want for portable code -- but note that this is case-sensitive matching.  If you want to match FoO and foo, you need EQUALP
2017-12-20T17:50:26Z Shinmera: Surely dispatching a command from a user facing side does not need to be terribly efficient in any case
2017-12-20T17:50:37Z Shinmera: Even a list would be fine.
2017-12-20T17:50:58Z Bike: that's what i was thinking.
2017-12-20T17:51:02Z Shinmera: Beware the optimisation creep.
2017-12-20T17:51:11Z rpg: true
2017-12-20T17:51:12Z Bike: though i'm not sure how much more efficient a more specific string= test would be anyway.
2017-12-20T17:51:25Z Bike: saves you a type check, i guess. hash function would probably be about the same.
2017-12-20T17:51:35Z rpg: depends a lot on how many table entries you have.
2017-12-20T17:52:26Z tfb: rpg: well, really, the test is how fast you can search compared to how fast your users can type
2017-12-20T17:52:27Z Shinmera: Now here's a question about data structures that actually requires performance: if you have a set of strings and would like to do fast fuzzy matching (find all strings for which a given string is a substring), what kind of data structure would be optimal for this?
2017-12-20T17:52:52Z osune: rpg: no fuzzy command-strings in MY interface! :D
2017-12-20T17:53:23Z rpg: Shinmera: I think it depends a lot on the nature of the strings.  This problem arises in DNA/RNA sequencing, and I think there's an extensive literature on that.  But those are long strings.
2017-12-20T17:53:42Z Shinmera: My context is an editor where you suggest completion for symbols.
2017-12-20T17:53:51Z Shinmera: So they're shorter strings, but lots of them.
2017-12-20T17:54:55Z warweasle: Shinmera: If there is a "strcmp" function which returns (-1, 0, 1) then you could create your own tree from sexps.
2017-12-20T17:55:22Z Shinmera: warweasle: The string to match is not known ahead of time
2017-12-20T17:55:30Z Shinmera: Otherwise the problem would be trivial.
2017-12-20T17:55:41Z Bike: bit vectors, like agrep. fo sho.......
2017-12-20T17:56:05Z osune: Shinmera: would I dispatch on the list then with (funcall (find ...)) ?
2017-12-20T17:56:10Z warweasle: Shinmera: Oh, are we into state machines then?
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2017-12-20T17:56:40Z Shinmera: warweasle: I don't know, I'm just asking. Given a set of strings, what data structure would be optimal to retrieve the subset that contains a certain other string.
2017-12-20T17:56:44Z m00natic: suffix tries
2017-12-20T17:56:57Z Shinmera: *the subset of strings that are a superstring of another string
2017-12-20T17:57:16Z m00natic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_trie
2017-12-20T17:57:28Z warweasle: SMUG?
2017-12-20T17:57:47Z Shinmera: osune: If your command list is an alist, you would do (funcall (cdr (assoc command command-list :test #'string-equal)) ..)
2017-12-20T17:58:29Z osune: Shinmera: thanks for the extra bit of information!
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2017-12-20T17:59:25Z Shinmera: m00natic: Oh, nice. I'll take a look, thanks for the hint
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2017-12-20T18:00:21Z Shinmera: So you would compute a suffix-trie for each entry in the set and then just scan through them all?
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2017-12-20T18:01:17Z Shinmera: I'm not sure if that would actually make it fast at all though, as the strings each are relatively short.
2017-12-20T18:02:03Z m00natic: @Shinmera, you'd use a single suffix tree (also look at the radix tree variant) and put all prespecified words in it - then use a single search
2017-12-20T18:02:43Z Shinmera: I see.
2017-12-20T18:02:48Z Shinmera: I'll look into this some more.
2017-12-20T18:02:49Z m00natic: and the scan is linear on the searched word
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2017-12-20T18:03:36Z m00natic: (or it could be made such with proper implementation)
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2017-12-20T18:08:40Z sjl: Shinmera: https://github.com/jhawthorn/fzy/blob/master/ALGORITHM.md might also be interesting
2017-12-20T18:08:58Z sjl: though it sounds like in your case you can do some precomputation on the data to be searched
2017-12-20T18:09:27Z Shinmera: Right. The set of symbols should not change frequently, and typically only ever grows.
2017-12-20T18:09:32Z Shinmera: So precomputation should be possible.
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2017-12-20T18:15:18Z Shinmera: While I'm asking off-topic datastructure questions: any suggestions for edit-distance algorithms for natural language? Levenshtein distance is awful for that, since by its metrics "pear" is closer to "apple" than "apple trees" even though you'd highly likely want the latter to score better.
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2017-12-20T18:15:25Z sjl: some of these fuzzy finders cache results too though, so they may still have helpful things for you
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2017-12-20T18:16:53Z Shinmera: Well, edit distance would be the wrong term for what I want, I suppose. More like similarity scoring.
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2017-12-20T18:21:34Z pjb: Shinmera: sounds like the vector representation of words used in machine learning algorithms would be what you want.
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2017-12-20T18:22:18Z pjb: Shinmera: have a look at https://www.tensorflow.org/tutorials/word2vec
2017-12-20T18:22:34Z rpg: Shinmera: I think there *are* such algorithms, but it's a tricky problem because, for example, you want to know about pronunciation (so that "too", "to" and "two" are similar).  Maybe google for something in the information retrieval literature....
2017-12-20T18:22:43Z Shinmera: pjb: Thanks
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2017-12-20T18:23:18Z rpg: If you were going to do a vector representation, you might as well go ahead and train a NN.... But you would need a source of training data for closeness....
2017-12-20T18:23:22Z Shinmera: rpg: Right, IR should have something about that.
2017-12-20T18:23:57Z Shinmera: Context is commands in a bot with a list of "did you mean" suggestions when you type an unknown command.
2017-12-20T18:24:22Z Shinmera: the commands are strings that are very natural-language-y
2017-12-20T18:24:24Z rpg: Shinmera: Like "fuck" for bash....
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2017-12-20T18:28:32Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Similarity scoring? Perhaps you mean like word trees
2017-12-20T18:29:01Z Shinmera: Not really, no
2017-12-20T18:29:23Z Shinmera: Users are likely to: typo, use a synonym, or forget other parts of the full command (substring)
2017-12-20T18:29:37Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ah, then you need to construct models of the typing paths
2017-12-20T18:29:39Z Shinmera: So ideally it should be able to find "similar" word sequences based on that.
2017-12-20T18:29:51Z jmercouris: Shinmera: markov chains would / could be a good starting point
2017-12-20T18:29:59Z jmercouris: Shinmera: or automata with gates
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2017-12-20T18:30:53Z jmercouris: if you are interested, I can explain more, it will require your own implementation though, there does not exist a library for this
2017-12-20T18:31:22Z Shinmera: Sure. Though maybe another time, I need to leave in a bit.
2017-12-20T18:31:48Z jmercouris: ok, freel free to ping me, I have a lot of experience in this domain
2017-12-20T18:31:53Z Shinmera: Great!
2017-12-20T18:32:18Z _death: Shinmera: there are also classic algorithms like soundex and friends
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2017-12-20T18:33:11Z pjb: Nice NLP user interfaces should be able to ask questions back to the user to clarify requests where some ambiguity exist.
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2017-12-20T18:34:34Z jmercouris: pjb: Another cool thing is using the context of the words around it for guessing, not just what they typed
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2017-12-20T18:35:06Z pjb: Indeed, you can use the history of the user interactions (including a user model) to clarify things.
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2017-12-20T18:35:56Z beach: pjb: I think that's right, and such a model would include the kind of keyboard layout is used.
2017-12-20T18:37:06Z jmercouris: beach: yes, definitely need a per keyboard training, ideally per user training
2017-12-20T18:37:24Z jmercouris: it doesn't have to be a very complex or expensive model though, there are very lightweight ones you can embed into a user distributed application
2017-12-20T18:37:27Z beach: pjb: And a model of me would include the fact that I always invert the h and e in the.  In fact, I have a global emacs abbrev to change "teh" to "the"
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2017-12-20T18:38:01Z jmercouris: beach: C-t
2017-12-20T18:38:12Z beach: jmercouris: You don't get it.
2017-12-20T18:38:24Z beach: jmercouris: I see it way too late.
2017-12-20T18:38:25Z jmercouris: teh -> C-t = the
2017-12-20T18:38:31Z beach: You don't get it.
2017-12-20T18:38:32Z jmercouris: Ah, okay lol
2017-12-20T18:39:22Z beach: It is not as though I do t <lesses, is that right, yes it is> e <now this then, maybe> h <ah, not right, lets do a C-t>
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2017-12-20T18:40:25Z beach: In fact, given the bad typing of some people here, they could learn from what I do.
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2017-12-20T18:41:34Z beach: It is more like "here is teh phrase I want to type <oh, dear, I inverted the e and the h a few words ago>
2017-12-20T18:42:08Z Shinmera: Things would be much easier if people just didn't make mistakes to begin with :^)
2017-12-20T18:42:10Z beach: So auto-correcting from teh to the saves a lot of time, and a lot of burden on the reader.
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2017-12-20T18:48:10Z jackdaniel: teh mistakes are unavoidable
2017-12-20T18:48:28Z beach: No, tehy are not.
2017-12-20T18:48:29Z jackdaniel: (and yes, I know I made 2)
2017-12-20T18:48:54Z cgay: I count 3.
2017-12-20T18:50:02Z beach: 1. inverting e and h.  2. Forgetting final period. 3. Using an article in the first place.
2017-12-20T18:50:32Z beach: But, the native language of jackdaniel makes articles in English hard.
2017-12-20T18:51:01Z cgay: Kentuckian?
2017-12-20T18:51:13Z beach: Close. :)
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2017-12-20T18:51:58Z cgay: Thus ends my contribution to #lisp.
2017-12-20T18:52:20Z beach: Aww!
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2017-12-20T18:52:56Z Shinmera: beach: You forgot capitalising the first letter of the sentence.
2017-12-20T18:53:04Z jackdaniel: I didn't count lack of period since it is internet chat
2017-12-20T18:53:17Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: In that case you could have not counted any of them.
2017-12-20T18:53:58Z jackdaniel: well, bad articles and typos are in the other basket in my eyes
2017-12-20T18:54:11Z beach: Shinmera: My keyboard is acting up.  The shift key seems broken.  Time to change the keyboard.  I have had it for more than a decade.
2017-12-20T18:54:37Z Shinmera: beach: I meant in your enumeration of errors.
2017-12-20T18:54:57Z beach: Yes, I understood (I think).
2017-12-20T18:55:20Z Shinmera: Okey, I meant to say that capitalising the first letter was another mistake in jackdaniel's sentence that you didn't list.
2017-12-20T18:55:39Z beach: Oh, I didn't understand.  Thanks.
2017-12-20T18:55:47Z Shinmera has to hurry off now
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2017-12-20T18:55:56Z beach: See you later.
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2017-12-20T18:57:23Z beach: Ah, my monthly royalties arrived.  5.86 USD.  YAY!
2017-12-20T18:57:36Z warweasle: beach: ?
2017-12-20T18:57:43Z beach: That's twice the average.
2017-12-20T18:57:52Z warweasle: beach: What are you selling?
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2017-12-20T18:58:05Z beach: warweasle: I use CreateSpace self publishing, which is owned by Amazon.
2017-12-20T18:58:09Z beach: Books.
2017-12-20T18:58:33Z warweasle: beach: Land of Lisp? Realm of Racket? Game of Thrones?
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2017-12-20T18:58:55Z beach: Introduction to Computer Science is the only one in English so far.
2017-12-20T18:59:22Z notzmv: simple but refined, guaranteed to blow your mind
2017-12-20T18:59:29Z notzmv: the land of lisp
2017-12-20T18:59:50Z warweasle: notzmv: And now I have that song going through my head...
2017-12-20T19:00:00Z beach: "anytime" (to continue the phrase in the spirit of Queen)
2017-12-20T19:00:10Z warweasle: *Meow!* *Meow!*
2017-12-20T19:00:13Z rme: The thought of a $5.86 monthly royalty is a great incentive for me to get to work on my own book.
2017-12-20T19:00:23Z notzmv: I love that song lmao
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2017-12-20T19:00:34Z beach: rme: Oh, then, by all means, do it.
2017-12-20T19:00:38Z rme: (where's the sarcasm emoji?)
2017-12-20T19:00:43Z notzmv: zo'o
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2017-12-20T19:01:53Z rme: I suspect few people write books expecting to make very much money.
2017-12-20T19:01:54Z warweasle: rme: /s
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2017-12-20T19:02:45Z osune: rme: https://pc.net/emoticons/smiley/sarcastic
2017-12-20T19:03:03Z beach: rme: There are exceptions, like Steven Pinker.
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2017-12-20T19:04:11Z warweasle: "Learn a programming language in 30 days to write a book in 180 days!" - my new book.
2017-12-20T19:04:19Z beach: rme: And it is 10 times better than the book in French that I wrote with my favorite coauthor that give around 2€ per year.
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2017-12-20T19:07:12Z rme: But the fame, and the prestige!
2017-12-20T19:07:23Z beach: Yeah, right. :)
2017-12-20T19:08:07Z shka: $5.86 monthly?
2017-12-20T19:08:34Z beach: It's probably two books sold.
2017-12-20T19:08:51Z rme: Anyway, my proposed title is "Creative Common Lisp" or "Creative Computing in Common Lisp". If anyone writes it before me. let me know so that I can buy it.
2017-12-20T19:08:52Z beach: I could write something more popular. :)
2017-12-20T19:10:23Z pedh joined #lisp
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2017-12-20T19:12:27Z warweasle: "Master programming in two dozen agonizing steps"
2017-12-20T19:13:24Z beach: "Learn to program in Common Lisp in at least 10000 hours."
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2017-12-20T19:13:56Z rme: "Loving the Vampire: a Dangerous Romance".
2017-12-20T19:14:05Z rme: Wrong channel
2017-12-20T19:14:22Z beach: Now that I think about it, "Learn to program in Common Lisp in at least 10000 hours." is a great title.
2017-12-20T19:14:49Z rpg: 	"Loving the Vampire: a Dangerous Romance, or, Java for Fun and Profit."
2017-12-20T19:15:04Z beach: I love it.
2017-12-20T19:15:09Z nonlinear quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2017-12-20T19:15:14Z rme: haha
2017-12-20T19:15:38Z pedh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2017-12-20T19:17:21Z warweasle: "Gay Lisp: The LGBT Programming Book"
2017-12-20T19:17:49Z shka: "Tropic of Lisp: Scandalous Programming"
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2017-12-20T19:18:44Z rpg: "Silence of the Parentheses" -- a lisp-flavored horror/thriller
2017-12-20T19:19:24Z warweasle: (require 'rainbow-delimiters)
2017-12-20T19:19:28Z shka: more like "Silence of lambdas"
2017-12-20T19:19:51Z shka: "Gone with the funcall"
2017-12-20T19:20:10Z shka: "A condition too far"
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2017-12-20T19:20:34Z rpg: shka: 👏👏👏😂
2017-12-20T19:20:51Z rpg: "War and -P"
2017-12-20T19:21:50Z dmiles: (pedantic-extent ..)
2017-12-20T19:22:21Z shka: "Save lisp and die, or how I learned to stop worrying and love SBCL"
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2017-12-20T19:22:46Z rpg: actually, just "Save Lisp and Die" sounds thriller-y enough
2017-12-20T19:23:04Z warweasle: 10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
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2017-12-20T19:30:37Z dmiles: what i am trying to figurte out is if my macro's lambda list has &environment e  in it and if the e is passed to  macroexpand will that cause the same result if i had not passed it e
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2017-12-20T19:32:46Z beach: dmiles: If your macroexpander needs to call another macro expander for a macro defined in its lexical environment, you might get the wrong answer if you don't use the right environment.
2017-12-20T19:33:22Z pjb: dmiles: nope.
2017-12-20T19:33:53Z beach: dmiles: Right, pjb's answer is the short version.
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2017-12-20T19:35:07Z beach: pjb: Are you mellowing with age or something?
2017-12-20T19:35:43Z pjb: dmiles: a simple example: (define-symbol-macro s 42) (defmacro m (x &environment e) `(list ,(macroexpand-1 x e))) (symbol-macrolet ((s 33)) (m s)) --> (33)
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2017-12-20T19:35:53Z dmiles: ok so the '&environment e' that my macro uses is the enviroment beelonging to whom.. the environemnt of my caller or the enviroment i would manipulate from labels?
2017-12-20T19:36:13Z beach: pjb: I find you much more helpful lately, and much less aggressive.  Or maybe it's just my own aging that plays tricks on me. :)
2017-12-20T19:36:16Z pjb: or: (define-symbol-macro s 42) (defmacro m (x &environment e) `(list ,(macroexpand-1 x e) ,(macroexpand-1 x))) (symbol-macrolet ((s 33)) (m s))  --> (33 42)
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2017-12-20T19:36:42Z pjb: beach: it's irregular :-)
2017-12-20T19:36:50Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2017-12-20T19:37:04Z beach: Anyway, hope to see you again at ELS2018.
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2017-12-20T19:37:41Z dmiles: i hired pjb a decade ago to help with a company lisp project :P
2017-12-20T19:37:42Z pjb: We'll see. I need to find a new customer, I don't know if I'll be free then.  I guess for 2 days I could do it.
2017-12-20T19:37:54Z jmercouris: define-symbol-macro is the coolest thing ever! why have I not seen this before?
2017-12-20T19:38:29Z beach: pjb: That would be great!
2017-12-20T19:38:33Z jmercouris: beach: My impression of pjb has been that he's always been helpful, excpet that one time on #ecl where exploded on me telling me to RTFM :D
2017-12-20T19:38:36Z pjb: Of course, macroexpand-1 also expands normal macros (and macrolet), and other functions take an environment argument.
2017-12-20T19:39:15Z beach: jmercouris: You need to meet him in person.  A very sweet person is my impression.
2017-12-20T19:39:23Z pjb: beach: on the contrary, I've got the impression I become more irate with age…
2017-12-20T19:39:39Z beach: GAH, so it's me! :)
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2017-12-20T19:40:35Z pjb: dmiles: there's an interesting application of envionment with CLOS: notice that find-class 1- is an accessor and 2- takes an environment.  This let you define local classes!
2017-12-20T19:41:04Z shka it off to write fanfic about beach and pjb…
2017-12-20T19:41:12Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah, hopefully I can make it to ELS and put some faces to names, would be nice
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2017-12-20T19:41:39Z Bike: it allows for the possibility of local classes, except you can't give an environment to setf find-class.
2017-12-20T19:42:01Z Bike: hm, no, i'm mistaken.
2017-12-20T19:43:46Z dmiles: i been deciding to have a first class environemnt object be passed arround so that such uses can be used on an environments with indefinate extents
2017-12-20T19:44:16Z pjb: dmiles: be careful, you would get the same problem as if implementing continuations.
2017-12-20T19:44:32Z shka: hmm
2017-12-20T19:44:49Z shka: pjb: are you willing to elaborate on that, please?
2017-12-20T19:45:04Z shka: namely, what is the problem you are talking about
2017-12-20T19:45:24Z pjb: dmiles: even if it's not allowed to refer at macroexpand time to lexical variable in a local macro;  local macros can still refer to surrounding local macros.
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2017-12-20T19:46:04Z pjb: shka: if you leak the dynamic environment outside of the blocks where the local macros are defined, and use it, you could expand using local macros that are not active anymore.
2017-12-20T19:46:35Z shka: Shinmera: btw, i hooked docstring formatter into documentation-utils, i have few issues to sort out though
2017-12-20T19:46:37Z pjb: Also, you have to consider that local macros are defined and expanded at compilation time, while the dynamic environment is returned at run-time.
2017-12-20T19:46:48Z dmiles: pjb: heh, i think my impl of continuations is what inspired a willingness to do this with envs
2017-12-20T19:47:16Z pjb: dmiles: right, if you have them. But consider also this compilation-time vs. run-time.
2017-12-20T19:47:21Z shka: pjb: interesting
2017-12-20T19:48:05Z pjb: dmiles: or to make it useful, you could expand the environments to include more.   And letting an environment escape would be equivalent to returning a closure.
2017-12-20T19:48:56Z dmiles: actually yes.. the problem is as pjb points out is do i see function macros i *should* be seeing due to runtime extent or do i see what is overridden
2017-12-20T19:49:28Z dmiles: function (i meant to backspec over the word macros)
2017-12-20T19:49:36Z shka: dmiles: have you figured out some other way to do continuations?
2017-12-20T19:49:42Z shka: somewhat more efficient perhaps?
2017-12-20T19:50:39Z pjb: for example, find-class modifies the environment at run-time.  while defmacro provides a compilation-time environment, and assumedly macroexpand is used at compilation time too (but not necessarily).  So you have the problem of transporting environment (and their enclosed bindings) from compilation time to run-time (possibly thru a FASL, so now you have to be able to write environment and load them!).
2017-12-20T19:50:43Z pjb: Much fun.
2017-12-20T19:50:55Z dmiles: oh yeah and about what pjb is saying.. this is kinda been a big issue.. i currently have to pass two envs to around
2017-12-20T19:51:05Z pjb: But then, if you map them to closures, it should be doable.
2017-12-20T19:51:24Z dmiles: i have a compilations env and a runtimes env :\
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2017-12-20T19:52:27Z dmiles: i been trying to come up with a way to merge them somehow.. its not a big deal for my compiler.. i pass two arround.. i just trying to decide how that will be at runtime
2017-12-20T19:53:10Z dmiles: shka: well i dont know if its any more efficient or not
2017-12-20T19:53:50Z beach: For what it's worth, environments figure more prominently in SICL.  Most (all?) Common Lisp function that take an &optional environment argument dispatch to some SICL-specific generic function that dispatches on that argument.
2017-12-20T19:54:08Z pjb: dmiles: well, they should be merged anyways, because you can also macroexpand at run-time!
2017-12-20T19:54:08Z shka: dmiles: i see
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2017-12-20T19:55:49Z dmiles: pjb: yes .. it turns out the runtime env needs basically almost everythig the compiler env would have had
2017-12-20T19:56:08Z dmiles: the fact that they (should?) scope differntly is all that the problem is
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2017-12-20T19:57:18Z pjb: The thing is rather that the way clhs specifies it (that environment have only dynamic extend, without leaking them), let the compiler optimize out the local macros and symbol-macro, so they don't have to go thru to the run-time environment.
2017-12-20T19:58:14Z dmiles: yeah the whole of what dynamic extent is about ios letting one " optimize out the local macros "
2017-12-20T19:58:43Z dmiles: which i dont even feel entirely confortable with doing
2017-12-20T19:58:59Z dmiles: (i expect they might be overridden somehow later)
2017-12-20T19:59:59Z dmiles: really what i meant it i dont feel comfortable with inlining a local macro that expects to not get what functions it will call overridden
2017-12-20T20:01:04Z dmiles: (meaing i feel safer leaving it for runtime anyways)
2017-12-20T20:01:33Z pjb: As an extension, you will have to document it ;-)
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2017-12-20T20:03:40Z dmiles: pjb: :( ,  that is why whatever i do i have to make sure i dont do something unexepected :)
2017-12-20T20:04:02Z dmiles: (so i can delay documentation for years)
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2017-12-20T20:09:55Z dmiles: shka: i gensym (rename ) everything that everything that is not part of the global environment .. so continuations can be defined and found over a global namepace (i think this is how most impls would have done it) my compilation envinments job is to remember these names durring compilation.. at runtime i have lost all that info
2017-12-20T20:10:32Z shka: i see
2017-12-20T20:10:34Z dmiles: so i am trying to decide if i should not discard it.. i think pjb is talking me into not
2017-12-20T20:11:04Z pjb: If the environment is not leaked, you can discard it; if it is leaked, you need to keep it.
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2017-12-20T20:12:08Z dmiles: yeah i think why i am considering leakjing it is to movtive mysself to wwrite the code arround keeping it
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2017-12-20T20:13:42Z dmiles: i am getting the imporession i might have to write the code for keeping it anyways
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2017-12-20T20:19:23Z dmiles: the only difference between flets and labal in my code is in flets i delete the shadows at line 42     https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/defun.pl#L35-L50
2017-12-20T20:20:03Z dmiles: Ctx = compiler enviroment ment,  Env = runtime environment
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2017-12-20T20:21:52Z dmiles: (if anyone is actualyl reading the code, its line 57 that added the shadows)
2017-12-20T20:22:30Z phoe: I will now try to spin up a brand new Linux container and try to reproduce this Qtools/Lparallel bug on it.
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2017-12-20T20:31:31Z phoe: the fuck
2017-12-20T20:31:36Z phoe: it doesn't reproduce.
2017-12-20T20:31:48Z phoe: Well, that's good! One bug less to report.
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2017-12-20T20:32:19Z beach: "fewer"  Less stuff, fewer things.
2017-12-20T20:32:38Z phoe: One bug fewer.
2017-12-20T20:32:42Z phoe: Thanks. (:
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2017-12-20T20:32:59Z beach: phoe: Your English is already very good.  Just trying to help you perfect is. :)
2017-12-20T20:33:31Z phoe: beach: I know, thanks!
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2017-12-20T20:33:57Z beach: Sure!  So you will be in Marbella?
2017-12-20T20:34:35Z beach: What about your partner (as we now call them)?
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2017-12-20T20:36:51Z phoe: You mean KZiemian?
2017-12-20T20:37:06Z phoe: We both plan to visit this year's ELS.
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2017-12-20T20:38:08Z beach: s/perfect is/perfect it/  The full day cooking for my favorite coauthor, feeding her, and then working on our ELS submission related to partial inlining clearly had some consequences on my typing skills.
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2017-12-20T20:39:25Z beach: phoe: I don't know her IRC nick.  Just her singing. But I believe you.
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2017-12-20T20:40:28Z beach: phoe: Excellent.  I think it will be a great conference.
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2017-12-20T20:47:33Z phoe: beach: oh wait, Nina!
2017-12-20T20:48:23Z phoe: She won't attend. She'll stay in Poland - she had a car accident two years ago, and it still prevents her from travelling far.
2017-12-20T20:48:45Z phoe: KZiemian is my partner-in-CLUS though, and I thought that you had him on mind. He'll probably come to ELS with me.
2017-12-20T20:49:07Z beach: phoe: Oh, shit!  Sorry to hear that.
2017-12-20T20:51:05Z beach: phoe: Sorry, "partner" is the current euphemism for "wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/"  I hate it, but that's the way it is.
2017-12-20T20:53:21Z jmercouris: beach: What don't you like about ambiguity?
2017-12-20T20:53:35Z jmercouris: I'm going to start saying "oracle" instead of partner
2017-12-20T20:53:40Z aeth: "significant other" or "SO" is often used, at least in US English
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2017-12-20T20:54:15Z shka will use word "cucumber" instead
2017-12-20T20:54:21Z shka: it will be hilarious
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2017-12-20T20:55:22Z jmercouris: aeth: Yeah, I see that a lot
2017-12-20T20:55:50Z beach: jmercouris: I consider a "partner" to be an administrative relationship, like me and my wife who married to avoid giving half of the house to our families, or like two people getting together to create a company.
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2017-12-20T20:56:00Z phoe: beach: yes, I see.
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2017-12-20T20:57:02Z jmercouris: beach: Are you listing an example, or are you actually saying you and your wife married for the purposes of not giving your property to other relatives?
2017-12-20T20:57:12Z beach: So phoe had the right interpretation, but one that is losing out in current usage.
2017-12-20T20:57:34Z beach: jmercouris: The latter.
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2017-12-20T20:58:50Z jmercouris: Can't tell if you guys really like each other, or really don't like the relatives, either way, none of my business and off-topic :P
2017-12-20T20:59:22Z aeth: jmercouris: When I hear "oracle" I don't interpret the word as anything other than "give me all of your money, and pay per processor core"
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2017-12-20T20:59:32Z beach: Sure.  We do like each other.  It is all relative to specific French rules.  Nothing to worry about.
2017-12-20T21:01:04Z jmercouris: aeth: Ah yes, the faceless machine that is oracle :D
2017-12-20T21:01:23Z beach: jmercouris: I invite you to come visit us. You wouldn't be the first on #lisp do to that.  And then you can find out for yourself.
2017-12-20T21:01:38Z jmercouris: beach: Ah, interesting! Mayhaps someday I will!
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2017-12-20T21:02:38Z beach: The first week of January is booked by my niece, otherwise nothing planned.
2017-12-20T21:03:05Z jmercouris: Hmm, I'll be in the US for sometime in January, maybe after that
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2017-12-20T21:03:16Z jmercouris: s/sometime/some time
2017-12-20T21:03:27Z osune: beach: Is it true that the PACS is increasingly also used by hetrosexual partners?
2017-12-20T21:03:34Z beach: jmercouris: Sorry to hear that.
2017-12-20T21:03:50Z jmercouris: beach: The US is my home, I like it a lot, :D
2017-12-20T21:04:07Z beach: osune: I don't know.  Sorry.
2017-12-20T21:04:23Z osune: nevermind :)
2017-12-20T21:04:31Z beach: jmercouris: Sorry to hear that. :)
2017-12-20T21:04:49Z jmercouris: lol :D maybe we americans are a little bit strange, I'll admit
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2017-12-20T21:05:16Z beach: "a little".  Hmm
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2017-12-20T21:05:57Z beach: jmercouris: I lived in the US for a total of 5 years.  I still don't understand.
2017-12-20T21:06:21Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, American culture is something complex, and I don't think a non-native can pick it up, because we are also very subtle
2017-12-20T21:06:33Z jmercouris: a huge part of the complexity arises from the mixing of so many cultures I think
2017-12-20T21:06:56Z beach: Good luck.
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2017-12-20T21:07:35Z rpg: somewhere between understanding a nation and understanding all of the EU...
2017-12-20T21:07:45Z jmercouris: I also have another theory, all of the most extreme types of individuals are in the US as those are the types of people that would leave their home country in favor of something new
2017-12-20T21:08:16Z jmercouris: I find europeans to be a lot more moderate than us, always taking a safer route
2017-12-20T21:08:30Z jmercouris: rpg: that's a good analogy
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2017-12-20T21:09:51Z rpg: it's worth remembering that the original model of the confederation was like the EU....  But if this keeps up we need to move to #political-science!
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2017-12-20T21:35:33Z rme: I'm really looking forward to the ELS in Marbella.
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2017-12-20T22:44:57Z emaczen: jmercouris: did you implement copy/paste in your browser with an NSPasteBoard?
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2017-12-20T22:50:21Z jmercouris: emaczen: No, I used a different way
2017-12-20T22:50:35Z jmercouris: emaczen: are you trying to get copy/paste working in a CCL standalone program?
2017-12-20T22:51:13Z jmercouris: emaczen: here's what you need: https://gist.github.com/b0692ae85cfb9151d31e2ec690e51ef1
2017-12-20T22:51:46Z emaczen: jmercouris: I'm just trying to copy something from emacs into a CCL program
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2017-12-20T22:51:50Z jmercouris: emaczen: Note that in the above gist *next-view* is the sender
2017-12-20T22:52:06Z jmercouris: emaczen: The code I pasted into the gist will work for you then
2017-12-20T22:52:35Z jmercouris: emaczen: for the sender you can use your content view (or really another view within your layout I think)
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2017-12-20T22:55:23Z emaczen: why is ccl::*nsapp* always bound?
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2017-12-20T23:15:04Z dmiles: the consequences of symbol-macroletting over a global variable is an error .. with-slot seems to symbol-macrolet.. i guess it is the case that there are typically very few global vars
2017-12-20T23:15:18Z jmercouris: emaczen: I have no idea, it is bound when starting the IDE and should be in your bootstrapping code for standalone
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2017-12-20T23:16:26Z jmercouris: emaczen: if you look in my source cocoa/application.lisp you'll see where I setq *nsapp* as part of the bootstrap/startup of the standalone app
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2017-12-20T23:19:00Z emaczen: jmercouris: I didn't really want to mess with it so I just figured out how to do it with cocoa...
2017-12-20T23:19:52Z emaczen: having to program a little bit with cocoa/objective-c makes me VERY thankful for common-lisp, there is some strange stuff out there
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2017-12-20T23:22:16Z jmercouris: emaczen: objective-c is really quite good when you use it in its normal context
2017-12-20T23:22:40Z jmercouris: emaczen: You can also get access to the shared application via another function called like [sharedApplication] or something, I can't remember
2017-12-20T23:23:50Z jmercouris: emaczen: at any rate, *nsapp* should probably be bound
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2017-12-20T23:27:23Z jmercouris: emaczen: or rather set, in lisp terminology
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2017-12-20T23:30:16Z asarch: Does SBCL interprets the abstract syntax tree or does it compiles it?
2017-12-20T23:31:09Z jmercouris: asarch: Does it not have to do both?
2017-12-20T23:31:20Z jmercouris: at different times?
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2017-12-20T23:32:56Z asarch: I don't know
2017-12-20T23:33:12Z asarch: I just was wondering
2017-12-20T23:33:14Z emaczen: how do we get the current settings of (declaim (optimize ...) ..) with SBCL?
2017-12-20T23:33:47Z asarch: PCL in chapter three says about some implementations compiles the code and other just interpret it
2017-12-20T23:34:24Z jmercouris: asarch: Yeah, but I believe SBCL does both, I'm not an SBCL user though, many people in this channel are though
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2017-12-20T23:35:38Z dmiles: in clisp we have to ectually tell it we want a function compiled.. is that the case in SBCL>
2017-12-20T23:35:53Z dmiles: +?
2017-12-20T23:36:29Z asarch: Thank you jmercouris
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2017-12-20T23:36:34Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-20T23:36:40Z Bike: sbcl pretty much compiles everything. it has an interpreter, but it's more marginal.
2017-12-20T23:36:49Z Shinmera: It has two interpreters, actually.
2017-12-20T23:36:49Z Bike: emaczen: sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy i believe
2017-12-20T23:36:59Z asarch: Wow! Two interpreters!
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2017-12-20T23:37:54Z asarch: I've been reading and I realize that Lisp is actually the language of God
2017-12-20T23:38:01Z Shinmera: I don't think sb-fasteval is activated on standard fancy builds, but that's the more recent and involved interpreter.
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2017-12-20T23:38:34Z asarch: I remember quiet long ago that someone told me that God used Lisp to create the Universe
2017-12-20T23:38:53Z asarch: And also told me there was a song about it
2017-12-20T23:39:25Z notzmv: '(tao)
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2017-12-20T23:47:00Z dmiles: i am calling WAM-CL a compiler since before i run a form at the repl i convert it to prolog source, then on several versions of prolog (especially the one i am using) code is compiled whenever it is called
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2017-12-20T23:50:16Z dmiles: so (disassemble ..) calls clause/2 (which decompiles the Zip-WAM) and prints out what was threre
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2017-12-21T00:02:36Z raynold: Ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-12-21T00:04:26Z pierpa: dmiles: cool!
2017-12-21T00:04:32Z ebrasca: raynold: It is more good nigth here.
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2017-12-21T00:10:07Z rpg: dmiles: WAM-CL is both cool and .... sort of perverted....
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2017-12-21T00:15:43Z dmiles: what is neat is on YAP-Prolog it compiles to the Extended Andorra Model (EAM) https://arxiv.org/pdf/1009.3806.pdf
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2017-12-21T00:17:23Z dmiles: perverted?!
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2017-12-21T01:26:12Z rpg: dmiles: compiling one high level language to another does seem a little perverted. But on the other hand, everyone's compiling stuff to JavaScript these days, so go figure!
2017-12-21T01:27:15Z rpg: dmiles: Once you get WAM-CL done, you can run Peter Norvig's Prolog-in-Lisp on it, which will almost be an MCEscher drawing!
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2017-12-21T01:44:39Z Xach_: that happened with the lisp jvm and abcl, didn't it?
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2017-12-21T01:51:16Z aeth: rpg: I personally see Lisp as more of a platform than a language.
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2017-12-21T01:56:42Z aeth: Compiling things to and from Lisp just seems so natural.
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2017-12-21T02:25:42Z ebzzry: When using S-L-A-D (SBCL), the path /usr/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core is hardcoded inside, right?
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2017-12-21T02:37:46Z loke: ebzzry: What is slad?
2017-12-21T02:37:54Z Bike: save lisp and die.
2017-12-21T02:38:03Z loke: Ah
2017-12-21T02:38:06Z loke: Thanks.
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2017-12-21T02:42:16Z cgay: When using f-m-h-a-d there's always a bjorkenspool in the fingenschartzer, right?
2017-12-21T02:43:06Z loke: cgay: Pretty much, yeah.
2017-12-21T02:43:22Z cgay wipes brow in relief.
2017-12-21T02:45:43Z loke: cgay: Be careful though. Don't forget that f-k-r-t will block the östenfreischer unless the zahnspühle is set to ZWEI
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2017-12-21T02:47:30Z drmeister: If I have a remote swank server and I want to access the file system on the remote server - is there a way to do that through slime?
2017-12-21T02:47:41Z loke: drmeister: Yes.
2017-12-21T02:47:53Z drmeister: How would I go about doing that?
2017-12-21T02:47:54Z loke: drmeister: You configure Slime-Tramp.
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2017-12-21T02:48:24Z loke: drmeister: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html#Setting-up-pathname-translations
2017-12-21T02:49:11Z loke: It can sometimes be a bit finnicky to get right, but when it works, it's beautiful.
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2017-12-21T02:51:31Z cgay remembers using ange-ftp
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2017-12-21T02:53:02Z cgay: ...and is assuming it's completely obsolete but is perhaps wrong.
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2017-12-21T02:54:38Z loke: cgay: It is completely obsolete and has been superseeded by tramp as of 15 years ago.
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2017-12-21T03:06:16Z cgay: It was pretty bloody awesome at the time. Almost as good as LispM file operations!
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2017-12-21T04:22:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-21T05:20:23Z jack_rabbit: playing with lparallel. Anyone know why the pmap* functions seem to be consing up a lot of memory?
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2017-12-21T06:01:39Z ebzzry: Anyone using Nix here?
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2017-12-21T06:24:37Z loke: ebzzry: No.
2017-12-21T06:24:43Z loke: ebzzry: But what is your issue?
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2017-12-21T06:33:56Z ebzzry: loke: I want to build a Nix package that patches a Lisp binary.
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2017-12-21T06:35:25Z loke: ebzzry: That sounds oddly nix-specific.
2017-12-21T06:35:58Z ebzzry: Yes. So maybe there are experts here in that domain.
2017-12-21T06:36:03Z ebzzry: The script is at https://goo.gl/cy3piR
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2017-12-21T06:36:17Z ebzzry: While the Nix expression is at https://goo.gl/UWx3HE
2017-12-21T06:37:51Z loke: I prefer to use Qubes OS
2017-12-21T06:38:05Z ebzzry: loke: Can it run Steam?
2017-12-21T06:38:07Z loke: that allows me to sgregate everything in a less cumbersome way
2017-12-21T06:38:10Z loke: ebzzry: No.
2017-12-21T06:38:59Z ebzzry: One of my uses of Nix is composability.
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2017-12-21T06:40:28Z ebzzry: Anyway, let’s hope someone with the expertise can help.
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2017-12-21T07:59:46Z hajovonta: hello
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2017-12-21T12:35:44Z hajovonta: quicklisp top 10 library usage: https://imgur.com/yQcpIEe
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2017-12-21T12:37:42Z osune_: is it known what caused the short lived spike in October 2015?
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2017-12-21T12:40:09Z hajovonta: unfortunately, I don't know. This is the blog post the data is from: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/08/july-2015-download-stats.html
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2017-12-21T12:40:44Z hajovonta: the dates are for the blog posts, not for the exact months, so there is a little shift, it's a quick glance only
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2017-12-21T12:47:28Z hjudt_: from a library i get the warning message "bare references to struct types are deprecated. please use (:pointer (:struct ...)) or (:struct ...) instead. what are "bare references to struct types", what do they look like?
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2017-12-21T12:48:31Z osune_: hajovonta: I see. Thanks
2017-12-21T12:48:42Z Shinmera: CFFI type specifications that use the struct name symbol directly rather than (:struct foo)
2017-12-21T12:49:22Z hjudt_: Shinmera: thanks. then i probably can narrow down the culprit.
2017-12-21T12:49:32Z hjudt_: nail down
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2017-12-21T14:42:41Z Xach_: Shinmera: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-21/failure-report/qt-libs.html -- getting this today
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2017-12-21T14:48:04Z Xach_: What was the fix for the other qt-related libraries and new asdf?
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2017-12-21T14:49:00Z hajovonta: hi Xach_
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2017-12-21T14:50:19Z mfiano: There is a rather large bug with ASDF that came to realization after a bug report I submitted to a project recently. I hope it doesn't take SBCL a few years to update for a fix once one is available.
2017-12-21T14:50:52Z Shinmera: Xach_: There were changes between commonqt (qt), qtools, and qt-libs. Are all of them up-to-date?
2017-12-21T14:51:38Z Xach_: Shinmera: They were updated all together about four hours ago
2017-12-21T14:51:41Z Xach_: perhaps five
2017-12-21T14:51:44Z Xach_: Should I try again?
2017-12-21T14:51:52Z Shinmera: No, no changes since then
2017-12-21T14:51:55Z Shinmera: hold on
2017-12-21T14:52:17Z Shinmera: The changes were related to ASDF in the sense that I finally decided to incorporate some stuff into CommonQt to get rid of gross hacks in qt-libs.
2017-12-21T14:53:03Z rumbler31: Shinmera: does that have to do with things like shlepping native libs around?
2017-12-21T14:53:13Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Hm?
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2017-12-21T14:53:49Z rumbler31: er, I remember that qt-libs concerned itself with installing native libs, and also for providing that the native libs get shipped with lisp applications, right?
2017-12-21T14:54:47Z Shinmera: Xach_: Try again now, there's a change in qt-libs
2017-12-21T14:55:00Z Shinmera: rumbler31: Yes, so what is your question?
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2017-12-21T14:56:40Z rumbler31: are the changes you're talking about w.r.t. qt-libs and asdf concerned with using asdf to ship the native libraries with applications?
2017-12-21T14:57:07Z Shinmera: No
2017-12-21T14:57:30Z rumbler31: ok, thank you
2017-12-21T14:58:05Z Shinmera: CommonQt's system definition includes a step that builds libcommonqt.so automatically on linux systems. Doing so requires qmake, gcc, and a bunch of foreign libraries. Qt-libs should prevent that, so there was a series of ugly hacks to change the system on the fly to stop it from doing that, and to also jump in between to reroute other loading mechanisms
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2017-12-21T14:58:29Z Shinmera: Now CommonQt includes the capabilities I needed on its own, plus a new system qt+libs that uses qt-libs to deliver the binaries.
2017-12-21T14:58:44Z Shinmera: So the dependency changed from qt-libs => qt to qt+libs => qt-libs
2017-12-21T14:59:05Z rumbler31: ah I see
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2017-12-21T15:01:20Z Xach_: Shinmera: Most things build now, thanks. qsci is still complaining: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-21/failure-report/qt-libs.html#qsci
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2017-12-21T15:03:43Z Shinmera: Agh
2017-12-21T15:03:58Z Shinmera: That one's more annoying
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2017-12-21T15:05:56Z Shinmera: Or not.
2017-12-21T15:07:26Z Shinmera: Should be good now too
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2017-12-21T15:08:46Z Xach_: Shinmera: looks good, thanks
2017-12-21T15:08:50Z Shinmera: Hoorah
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2017-12-21T17:01:41Z KZiemian: Hello World!
2017-12-21T17:01:51Z KZiemian: after yesterday meeting with phoe
2017-12-21T17:02:04Z KZiemian: CLUS project enter new phase
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2017-12-21T17:02:33Z KZiemian: so don't hasitet to writing to me: what are you doing? Why so long?
2017-12-21T17:03:02Z beach: Who are you asking?
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2017-12-21T17:05:52Z dim: I'm not sure how common it is around here (I think not much), I am now publishing my docs for pgloader at http://pgloader.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ ; using a Python based tooling --- that's the end-user docs, that said
2017-12-21T17:06:37Z sebboh: jasom: help! The free code your provided which I used for a local utility stopped working after I apt-get upgrade'd!
2017-12-21T17:06:45Z sebboh: https://github.com/jasom/clinenoise/issues/1
2017-12-21T17:07:56Z sebboh: it's just a little tool that I use to keep track of my timecard. :P
2017-12-21T17:08:04Z pjb: beach: potential users, I'd guess.
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2017-12-21T17:08:41Z KZiemian: beach: anyone that waiting for CLUS to work
2017-12-21T17:09:15Z KZiemian: beach: they should have eye on me
2017-12-21T17:09:24Z beach: KZiemian: Just to tell you what we think you should be doing with CLUS?  OK, I'll give it some thought.
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2017-12-21T17:10:37Z KZiemian: beach: you know, I work better and faster when someone ask: hey when it will be read?
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2017-12-21T17:11:27Z KZiemian: beach: ready not read, I make typo
2017-12-21T17:11:50Z pjb: KZiemian: Ok, then what's your first task?
2017-12-21T17:12:04Z beach: KZiemian: Got it.
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2017-12-21T17:13:56Z KZiemian: pbj: read and understand source code of ccldoc enough that we can rewrite it to suits CLUS
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2017-12-21T17:14:27Z KZiemian: pbj: and if CCL comunity agree make as side effect more documentation for ccldoc
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2017-12-21T17:15:44Z KZiemian: other people in CLUS project works on diffrent things, you must ask them for more information
2017-12-21T17:15:54Z KZiemian: it is now multi threads project
2017-12-21T17:17:37Z pjb: Why the rewrite exactly? Isn't the code good?
2017-12-21T17:18:22Z KZiemian: pbj: we want make a function output-CLUS
2017-12-21T17:18:30Z KZiemian: pbj: or something like that
2017-12-21T17:18:41Z pjb: So, not a rewrite, an add-on.
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2017-12-21T17:19:10Z KZiemian: pbj: yes, that is probbably a better word
2017-12-21T17:19:45Z KZiemian: pbj: we also want make it possible to load not one page but bunch of hyperlinked pages
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2017-12-21T17:20:17Z KZiemian: pbj: so we want to add DOCUMENT-GRAPH class to it
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2017-12-21T17:22:24Z KZiemian: pbj: but this plan was made yesterday, so we just starting
2017-12-21T17:24:05Z pjb: ok
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2017-12-21T17:37:36Z rpg: sebboh: Yes, this is an issue with the new ASDF.
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2017-12-21T17:48:54Z rpg: sebboh: I just checked -- the latest CFFI has this fixed.  So if you get CFFI from git instead of from Quicklisp, you'll be fine.
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2017-12-21T17:57:38Z Xach_:   
2017-12-21T17:57:41Z asarch: Can you create a cons cell pointing its both CAR and CDR pointers to itself? If yes, how?
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2017-12-21T17:59:12Z Xach_: asarch: setf is one way
2017-12-21T17:59:18Z asarch: And if yes, can you mix them (its CAR pointer points to its CDR pointer and viceversa)?
2017-12-21T18:00:30Z pjb: asarch: (setf *print-circle* t) (let ((k (cons nil nil))) (setf (car k) k (cdr k) k)) #| --> #1=(#1# . #1#) |#
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2017-12-21T18:03:47Z dmiles: next asarch wants then pointing cross-eyed?
2017-12-21T18:04:37Z dmiles: to have them point at each other this is where a locative comes in
2017-12-21T18:04:52Z dmiles: like:   (let ((c (cons () ()))(loc (make-locative))) (setf (car c) loc) (setf (cdr c) loc))
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2017-12-21T18:06:07Z asarch: WOW!!!
2017-12-21T18:06:11Z asarch: Thank you!!!
2017-12-21T18:06:16Z asarch: Thank you very much guys :-)
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2017-12-21T18:06:45Z Xach_: asarch: what prompts the question?
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2017-12-21T18:08:49Z asarch: I just was re-reading my logs from the channel when I asked about: (cons '(x y z) 'w)
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2017-12-21T18:16:55Z KZiemian: see you
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2017-12-21T18:35:08Z jasom: sebboh: I'll take a look
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2017-12-21T18:42:13Z jasom: sebboh: it's corrected
2017-12-21T18:43:28Z jasom: rpg: is the "eval-when" that I had in my .asd a no-no?
2017-12-21T18:44:06Z jasom: rpg: I changed it to a defsystem-depends-on and :cffi-grovel-file instead of cffi:grovel-file which seems the "right way"
2017-12-21T18:44:40Z rpg: jasom: I was out to lunch....
2017-12-21T18:45:00Z rpg: what is the specific question?  My laptop went to sleep and i lost some context
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2017-12-21T18:46:01Z jasom: rpg: https://github.com/jasom/clinenoise/commit/c3d3f89f0fe876b2549e28aa1c67a5aa5f6d6b69#diff-13f67aea30a79b6c1016c707babd1dec  This change is the "right way" correct?  Was the old version actually wrong or just frowned upon?
2017-12-21T18:46:12Z rpg: jasom: The change in  https://github.com/jasom/clinenoise/commit/c3d3f89f0fe876b2549e28aa1c67a5aa5f6d6b69 yes, looks like the right way.
2017-12-21T18:46:54Z rpg: The old version wasn't actually wrong (or at least detected as such), but the new one is better because if cffi-grovel changes then ASDF will properly detect that fact -- it wouldn't before.
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2017-12-21T18:48:04Z rpg: I was just confused because before I was looking at the use of MAKE-INSTANCE on OPERATION problem, which was fixed.
2017-12-21T18:49:36Z jasom: rpg: ah
2017-12-21T18:50:00Z jasom: I just saw an ASDF failure then saw an eval-when in the .asd file and got sad.
2017-12-21T18:50:48Z jasom: I think the latest CFFI in QL doesn't have that issue either, so perhaps sebboh needs to update his quicklisp dist
2017-12-21T18:51:58Z rpg: jasom: No, the EVAL-WHEN would not have caused an ASDF failure.  But your change makes things potentially better.
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2017-12-21T19:06:44Z shka: good evening
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2017-12-21T19:19:49Z sebboh: jasom and rpg, thanks!  I'll update and report back. :)
2017-12-21T19:20:23Z jmercouris: xb
2017-12-21T19:20:28Z jmercouris: sorry, trying to switch buffer
2017-12-21T19:23:30Z sebboh: jasom, there's an unused variable warning in the C grovel stuff. Not important to me, only mentioning it because I'm already here. /home/hobbes/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.4.2.debian-linux-x64/home/hobbes/quicklisp/local-projects/clinenoise/termios-grovel__grovel.c:13:7: warning: unused variable ‘autotype_tmp’ [-Wunused-variable]
2017-12-21T19:24:55Z jmercouris: can anyone please tell me how to run a "shell command" in ccl?
2017-12-21T19:25:15Z jmercouris: ccl:run-program?
2017-12-21T19:26:36Z Shinmera: generally just use uiop:run-program
2017-12-21T19:26:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Just for making it cross-implementation?
2017-12-21T19:27:10Z Shinmera: No reason not to
2017-12-21T19:30:07Z emaczen: If slime and SBCL have trouble finding my sources what should I do? I think I've had this problem before and for some odd reason it keeps reoccuring...
2017-12-21T19:30:29Z emaczen: It is having trouble "finding my sources" from the debugger
2017-12-21T19:31:01Z jmercouris: Shinmera: It seems to only get the exit code
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2017-12-21T19:31:16Z Shinmera: Read the docs
2017-12-21T19:31:18Z jmercouris: Shinmera: If I run "ls -la ~/" for example, it doesn't show the contents of my home dir
2017-12-21T19:31:27Z jmercouris: Shinmera: These docs lol? https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/README.md
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2017-12-21T19:31:39Z Shinmera: There's an elaborate docstring
2017-12-21T19:32:08Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Ah, you weren't being ironic, you meant "docstring" not docs :D
2017-12-21T19:32:09Z jmercouris: whoopsie
2017-12-21T19:32:35Z Shinmera: well the docs include docstrings in my opinion
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2017-12-21T19:33:33Z Bike: emaczen: you can set it manually with sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location
2017-12-21T19:33:46Z rme: (ccl:run-program "/bin/ls" '("/bin") :output t)
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2017-12-21T19:34:02Z rme: https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#running-other-programs-as-subprocesses
2017-12-21T19:35:16Z Bike: if you just tried to give it "ls -la ~/" that's not going to work, it's not a shell, yeah?
2017-12-21T19:35:17Z jasom: jmercouris: uiop:run-program has an option for shell processing or not
2017-12-21T19:35:18Z emaczen: Bike: /usr/local/lib/sbcl/ if the binary is at /usr/local/bin/sbcl?
2017-12-21T19:35:46Z Bike: emaczen: doesn't that have the image and stuff?
2017-12-21T19:35:48Z jmercouris: jasom: Cool, thank you
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2017-12-21T19:36:09Z jasom: e.g. (uiop:run-program "ls -la ~/" :force-shell t :output :string)
2017-12-21T19:36:23Z emaczen: Bike: huh?
2017-12-21T19:36:51Z emaczen: Bike: Yes, lib doesn't look like the sources
2017-12-21T19:37:09Z Bike: i don't have an sbcl installed from source on this system, so i can't tell you the directory tree off the top of my head
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2017-12-21T19:38:14Z jasom: jmercouris: contrast with (uiop:run-program `("ls" "-la" ,(uiop:native-namestring (user-homedir-pathname))) :output :string)
2017-12-21T19:38:18Z jasom: which doesn't invoke the shell
2017-12-21T19:38:25Z emaczen: Bike: I think I found something, let me give it a try now
2017-12-21T19:40:40Z emaczen: Bike: Nope, I think it is having trouble finding my sources?
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2017-12-21T19:48:59Z jmercouris: jasom: so which shell does it pick? what if you have several?
2017-12-21T19:49:55Z jasom: jmercouris: it's implementation dependent, but usually /bin/sh on *nix and cmd.exe on windows
2017-12-21T19:50:32Z jmercouris: jasom: I see interesting!
2017-12-21T19:50:45Z jasom: jmercouris: if you want a specific shell then do something like: (uiop:run-program ("/bin/bash" "-c" "ls -la ~/")) ;; though this breaks on e.g. nixos that has no /bin/bash
2017-12-21T19:51:20Z jmercouris: Right, that's fine, just doing this for a demonstrator, it is okay, thank you
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2017-12-21T22:42:33Z sebboh: Where are the McCLIM people at?  Hey, I'm sure you've heard about how BountySource has been eaten by some ICO jerks who apparently think that they now own us "users" of BountySource.  So, are you going to accept donations via some other mechanism?
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2017-12-21T22:54:18Z whoman: #clim
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2017-12-21T22:55:32Z sebboh: oh
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2017-12-21T23:01:29Z whoman: http://readable.sourceforge.net/
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2017-12-21T23:13:14Z sebboh: What were those modern aliases for (car ...) and (cdr ...)?  (first ...) and?  (rest ...)?  Any other convention?
2017-12-21T23:14:07Z Bike: those are the only standard ones.
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2017-12-21T23:14:45Z oleo: try cxr from lol
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2017-12-21T23:15:21Z oleo: if you need to dive deeper....
2017-12-21T23:18:11Z aeth: non-standard, I think you also see "head" and "tail"?
2017-12-21T23:18:48Z sebboh: ok
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2017-12-21T23:18:50Z sebboh: thanks!
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2017-12-21T23:20:32Z whoman: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_firstc.htm
2017-12-21T23:21:51Z whoman: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_last.htm
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2017-12-21T23:24:57Z aeth: I'm not sure there's any other convention other than head/tail (not in standard) and the in-standard car/cdr first/rest. Possibly "next" instead of "tail", but that's more of a doubly linked list thing ("previous" and "next" for the links)
2017-12-21T23:26:30Z aeth: When you use "next" as the convention, you usually use "data" instead of "car" or "head" or "first".
2017-12-21T23:26:54Z aeth: Knowing alternative names can be helpful, e.g. when you want to implement your own doubly linked list or something.
2017-12-21T23:27:00Z Zhivago: head/tail is for recursive decomposition of sequences.
2017-12-21T23:27:41Z Zhivago: first/rest are equivalent.
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2017-12-21T23:52:51Z dmiles: stylewarning: youtube video link again?
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2017-12-22T00:09:00Z stylewarning: dmiles for the talk?
2017-12-22T00:09:26Z stylewarning: https://youtu.be/f9vRcSAneiw
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2017-12-22T00:17:39Z dmiles: thx.. sharing it with someone in ##prolog
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2017-12-22T01:11:06Z peterppp: so I just installed sbcl and usocket on ubuntu and am trying to load usocket with the line (require :usocket)
2017-12-22T01:11:44Z aeth: Why not use Quicklisp?
2017-12-22T01:11:58Z peterppp: sbcl says it doesn't know how to find usocket though
2017-12-22T01:12:05Z peterppp: I don't know? it was recommended?
2017-12-22T01:12:12Z peterppp: it's all the same to me I guess
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2017-12-22T01:12:49Z peterppp: I got the impression that sbcl is the most widely used implementation
2017-12-22T01:12:50Z aeth: ASDF knows where to find usocket, if it's installed in a place where it looks for ASDF system definition files. And Quicklisp uses ASDF to go beyond that, downloading dependencies for you.
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2017-12-22T01:13:02Z aeth: Generally the only reason not to use Quicklisp for handling your dependencies is if you're packaging something.
2017-12-22T01:13:15Z peterppp: ah! thanks
2017-12-22T01:14:03Z peterppp: I guess it's working now
2017-12-22T01:16:00Z aeth: Usually, the way to handle dependencies is to create a your-project.asd file (just look how existing projects set up their ASDF files) at the top level of the directory, and put a link to that directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ so you can treat your project as if it's included in Quicklisp and just (ql:quickload :your-project)
2017-12-22T01:16:26Z peterppp: thanks, that was actually very helpful
2017-12-22T01:16:26Z aeth: There's actually a library that can automate this. https://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/
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2017-12-22T01:16:48Z aeth: Actually, if you use Quickproject, you don't even need to make a link, apparently.
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2017-12-22T01:24:00Z phoe: I only use quickproject.
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2017-12-22T01:30:24Z aeth: I do just this: cp -t . ../some-old-project/LICENSE.txt ../some-old-project/.gitignore ../some-old-project/some-old-project.asd
2017-12-22T01:30:37Z aeth: And base everything on some old project of mine, with edits to update the name, copyright year, etc.
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2017-12-22T03:24:28Z jack_rabbit: Results from a little toy I built in CL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ODLTn3ifk&list=PLvoUoqQqEHItOnsGSmiVDp2iMFyU9yUmK
2017-12-22T03:25:40Z loke: jack_rabbit: second half of the video is the first in reverse?
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2017-12-22T03:27:15Z Xach_: jack_rabbit: nice. reminds me of that xscreensaver smearing hack
2017-12-22T03:27:33Z jack_rabbit: loke, Not quite. The process in the second half is similar to the reverse of the first.
2017-12-22T03:27:38Z jack_rabbit: Xach_, ha! thanks.
2017-12-22T03:28:46Z loke: Xach_: thanks for merging my zs3 fixes. I'm starting to have some concerns that I might have introduced a small bug, and I need your opinion on this:
2017-12-22T03:29:55Z loke: Xach_: Specifically, it's the fix to REGION-ENDPOINT. It now returns *S3-ENDPOINT* if it's set. The question is if this will be a problem if *S3-ENDPOINT* is set to a bucket-domain (such as foo.s3.amazonaws.com)
2017-12-22T03:30:16Z loke: I'm using Wasabi (alternative S3 provider, and all works fine there)
2017-12-22T03:30:55Z Xach_: loke: hmmmmmmmm
2017-12-22T03:31:14Z Xach_: loke: is there any way for you to test it?
2017-12-22T03:31:38Z loke: Xach_: Yes, but I'm not sure I know how to test all permutations. The ones I've tested works fine.
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2017-12-22T03:32:08Z Xach_: you tried it with a bucket-domain?
2017-12-22T03:32:17Z loke: I guess my problem is that I'm not sure about the exact purpose of *S3-ENDPOINT*. When would you need to set it to a name of the form bucketname.s3.amazonaws.com?
2017-12-22T03:32:50Z loke: If you don't do that, obviously everything will work perfectly.
2017-12-22T03:33:03Z loke: (i set it to s3.wasabisys.com for example)
2017-12-22T03:33:14Z Xach_: Hmm, I don't see that it is documented anywhere, so I don't know if anyone is using it except you.
2017-12-22T03:33:28Z Xach_: I'm up for proceeding with the change and adapting quickly if it causes someone harm.
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2017-12-22T03:35:31Z Xach_ will release-wrangle a number of his projects this month
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2017-12-22T03:42:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-22T03:50:18Z loke: Xach_: I'm the only user of zs3? That sounds strange.
2017-12-22T03:52:59Z Xach_: loke: of *s3-endpoint*
2017-12-22T03:53:05Z Xach_: it isn't in the docs
2017-12-22T03:53:05Z loke: Ah, I see.
2017-12-22T03:53:20Z loke: Ok then :-)
2017-12-22T03:53:24Z Xach_: it seems like it should be!
2017-12-22T03:53:43Z loke: It's a very convenient way to use alternative S3 providers though. Google also uses the same API
2017-12-22T03:53:58Z loke: And Wasabi is significantly cheaper than Amazon
2017-12-22T03:54:18Z loke: (also, Amazon sucks, and I don't want to give them my money)
2017-12-22T03:55:31Z Xach_: ok
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2017-12-22T04:03:55Z loke: Xach_: when you implemented *S3-ENDPOINT*, what was the original reason for it?
2017-12-22T04:04:02Z loke: Did you have alternative providers in mind?
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2017-12-22T04:08:50Z Xach_: loke: i think different regions. let me double-check docs.
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2017-12-22T04:11:58Z Xach_: hmm, i don't remember, sorry, and haven't time to dig at the moment.
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2017-12-22T04:14:36Z loke: Xach_: I'll let you know if I find something myself.
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2017-12-22T05:08:26Z drmeister: loke: I use s3 services on AWS
2017-12-22T05:09:54Z drmeister: Xach_: I see your library 'zs3'.
2017-12-22T05:10:14Z drmeister: You use ironclad - do you use many of ironclad's features or just the hashing?
2017-12-22T05:12:46Z Xach_: drmeister: hashing and hmac
2017-12-22T05:12:59Z drmeister: Yeah
2017-12-22T05:13:12Z drmeister: I wish there were a lighter weight library for just those.
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2017-12-22T05:13:46Z Xach_: yes. the structure of ironclad makes it difficult to go a la carte
2017-12-22T05:14:20Z Xach_: i wrote my own sha stuff for quicklisp's pgp verification. have not done hmac. tempted to spin it into its own library.
2017-12-22T05:14:41Z Xach_: it's slower but sufficient for me
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2017-12-22T05:16:36Z drmeister: Clasp struggles mightily to compile ironclad because of terrible scaling in llvm and slowness in the Clasp runtime and Cleavir (working on it).
2017-12-22T05:17:00Z drmeister: I got so desperate I added C++ header libraries for hashing and hmac and exposed those functions.
2017-12-22T05:17:38Z Xach_: drmeister: not a bad approach in a pinch. better than having a terribly slow runtime for those too.
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2017-12-22T05:22:40Z loke: drmeister: What is it about clasp that makes is particularly slow for Ironclad? I mean, Irconclad is always slow to compile, since, as I understand it, it generates a lot of code through macros.
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2017-12-22T05:23:55Z drmeister: I haven't drilled into it carefully to figure it out and so I have to be careful where I attribute blame.   It takes something like 7 hours to compile full ironclad.
2017-12-22T05:24:12Z beach: loke: My personal guess is that the Cleavir-based compiler does not yet implement most of the planned optimizations, so the entire native code base is just not good enough.
2017-12-22T05:24:31Z drmeister: Some of the time is in llvm - we know that it has terrible scaling for large functions.
2017-12-22T05:26:08Z beach: loke: The theory that the Cleavir-based compiler has some bottlenecks because it is using a lot of generic functions might be somewhat true, but I think it would be counterproductive to look for such bottlenecks before the optimizations are implemented.
2017-12-22T05:27:36Z beach: loke: But yeah, there is also the LLVM possibility.  Many compiler optimization techniques require quadratic time in the size of the code, so if code is generated using macros, then that could very well be a big problem.
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2017-12-22T05:28:37Z loke: I thought that ironclad generated massive functions, but I have to admit that I have never actually confirmed the sizes myself. So some of it could be just assumptions.
2017-12-22T05:28:51Z drmeister: It does.
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2017-12-22T05:30:19Z loke: drmeister&beach: How fast is ironclad running in Clasp after this 7 hour compile? Is the generated code any good?
2017-12-22T05:30:55Z drmeister: Yeah - that's fine.  I haven't benchmarked it - but I haven't noticed any problems.
2017-12-22T05:31:05Z beach: loke: Like I said, the code generator of the Cleavir-based compiler is not good enought.
2017-12-22T05:32:02Z beach: loke: So that affects both the execution time of code that is compiled with it, and, of course, the time to execute the compiler itself, because that code is itself compiled with the compiler.
2017-12-22T05:32:08Z drmeister: I dunno beach - this looks like some n^m power scaling with the size of the function.
2017-12-22T05:32:24Z drmeister: It requires more analysis when I can get to it.
2017-12-22T05:32:51Z beach: drmeister: That's fine.  But, we still don't have enough optimizations. :)
2017-12-22T05:33:02Z drmeister: Granted.
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2017-12-22T05:33:56Z drmeister: I've been using it a lot interactively - the performance is good enough for what I've been doing.
2017-12-22T05:34:14Z drmeister: Somewhere between Python and sbcl speed.
2017-12-22T05:34:19Z drmeister: (big range)
2017-12-22T05:34:48Z loke: The SBCL compiler is called Python, isn't it? :-)
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2017-12-22T05:39:38Z drmeister: An unfortunate coincidence.
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2017-12-22T05:44:37Z drmeister: Is it typical for compilers to decide NOT to inline code if the resulting function becomes too large?
2017-12-22T05:44:53Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-22T05:45:59Z beach: Usually, inlining is done against some kind of "budget", and size is one consideration.   In fact, the cost function typically reflects the cost of further optimizations, so it might take the size squared.
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2017-12-22T06:30:52Z Zhivago: Not to mention the anticipated cache pressure.
2017-12-22T06:31:29Z Zhivago: One reason that using a bytecode interpreter can sometimes improve performance.
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2017-12-22T08:05:25Z jasom: drmeister: one amazing optimization if you have whole-program information is to inline all functions that are called exactly once.  It makes the code smaller and run faster.
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2017-12-22T08:07:43Z jasom: drmeister: llvm normalizes code to SSA form.  This can have a quadratic effect on code size.
2017-12-22T08:08:30Z jasom: code size for the intermediate representation that is; it gets reduced to something sane after optimizations, but the optimizations themselves run on the quadratically larger IR stream.
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2017-12-22T08:42:46Z ym: Are cl-json experts around?
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2017-12-22T08:43:00Z ym: I got "Invalid SB-MOP:SLOT-DEFINITION initialization: the initialization argument :NAME was constant: :OK." condition.
2017-12-22T08:43:46Z ym: Should I dig it or this is some sort of known not-a-bug-but-a-feature?
2017-12-22T08:45:08Z ym: Oh, found it.
2017-12-22T08:45:24Z ym: https://github.com/hankhero/cl-json/issues/14
2017-12-22T08:46:01Z ym: SBCL quirk indeed.
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2017-12-22T08:55:23Z beach: It sounds like a very bad idea to have slot names that are keyword symbols, though.
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2017-12-22T08:57:01Z beach: Slot names are implementation details that should be private to the module in question.  By making them keyword symbols, they are automatically exported to the entire world, so that you have no protection against (setf (slot-value obj :OK) ...)
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2017-12-22T08:58:58Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-slot-definition-metaobjects.html
2017-12-22T08:59:28Z beach: The :name argument is a slot name. An error is signaled if this argument is not a symbol which can be used as a variable name.
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2017-12-22T08:59:41Z beach: So, I think SBCL is right.
2017-12-22T08:59:56Z Shinmera: Well not necessarily right, since it errors in an obscure way
2017-12-22T08:59:58Z Shinmera: but it is not wrong.
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2017-12-22T09:40:06Z Fare: Bug in ASDF causes spurious rebuilds in presence of misnamed secondary systems :-(
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2017-12-22T10:17:28Z osune_: Does somebody know who owns cvberry.com ?
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2017-12-22T10:19:22Z lieven: a Mr Currell Berry from Atlanta according to whois.
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2017-12-22T10:20:49Z osune_: lieven: thanks, I meant more in a username way which I can message :)
2017-12-22T10:21:45Z lieven: you can send him an email :)
2017-12-22T10:22:40Z osune_: haw. totally forgot about that
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2017-12-22T12:42:26Z dim: how do you typically add (local) projects to ASDF/QL? I'm used to playing with asdf configuration files, but I'm now wondering if there's an easier way to do it?
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2017-12-22T12:46:40Z pjb: dim: nowadays, the easiest way is to put them (or a symlink) in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2017-12-22T12:47:40Z pjb: Otherwise, as one-shot: (pushnew #P"/path/to/your/project/dir/where/the/asd/file/is/" asdf:*central-registry* :test 'equal) (ql:quickload :your-project)
2017-12-22T12:48:03Z dim: I just added a symlink, to no avail
2017-12-22T12:48:09Z dim: (restarted ccl too)
2017-12-22T12:48:17Z Shinmera: dim: (ql:register-local-projects)
2017-12-22T12:48:22Z dim: thx
2017-12-22T12:48:28Z pjb: yep.
2017-12-22T12:48:37Z pjb: But it should not be needed normally.
2017-12-22T12:48:52Z dim: (ql:where-is-system "pgloader") -- the QL version is still prefered
2017-12-22T12:49:21Z dim: I mean it loads #P"/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/pgloader-v3.4.1/" rather than ~/quicklisp/local-projects/pgloader
2017-12-22T12:49:34Z dim: ok going to edit ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ etc
2017-12-22T12:49:50Z pjb: dim: strange, this is not what I observe here.
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2017-12-22T12:51:30Z dim: ok with a file-based setup it just works
2017-12-22T12:53:25Z dim: pjb: I'm used to asdf needing some convincing
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2017-12-22T13:40:47Z phoe: beach: ping!
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2017-12-22T13:40:58Z phoe: Are you around per chance?
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2017-12-22T13:44:11Z phoe: I have a question regarding protocols, testing, and CLOS. I'll just post it here.
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2017-12-22T13:45:03Z phoe: Let's suppose that I have a protocol, which includes a protocol class. Each class participating in the protocol must subclass this protocol class.
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2017-12-22T13:47:22Z phoe: I have created such a participating class, and I decided to write some tests for it. And, at this point, I had a doubt. Since I will be testing the class's participation in the protocol, this means that my tests will be limited to the operations listed in the protocol, and therefore will not really be specific to this concrete class. They will be testing the protocol itself.
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2017-12-22T13:48:40Z phoe: And this means that these tests should be valid for any class that participates in the protocol. At which point, I wondered - can I just grab all (in)direct subclasses of this protocol class, and run tests on these concrete classes?
2017-12-22T13:48:41Z Xach_: dim: hello
2017-12-22T13:49:06Z Xach_: dim: do you have the quicklisp directory as a tree in your asdf registry config?
2017-12-22T13:49:46Z phoe: I can use CLOS and MOP to grab all (in)direct subclasses of a protocol class, and I can run these protocol tests on each of these classes. My question is - does this approach look sane? Or do I have some error in my thinking somewhere I can't see yet?
2017-12-22T13:51:33Z beach: phoe: Yes, I'm here.
2017-12-22T13:52:09Z dim: Xach_: hi, no I don't think so, not explicitely at least
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2017-12-22T13:54:12Z beach: phoe: The test will be specific, because there will be methods on the operations in the protocol that are specialized to the concrete subclasses.
2017-12-22T13:54:46Z Xach_: dim: because there is normally no way that a quicklisp directory system would take precedence over a local-projects system
2017-12-22T13:55:06Z Xach_: there are some ways to tweak it so it happens but it is not normal
2017-12-22T13:55:08Z beach: phoe: Obviously, if your subclasses participate in other protocols as well, you need to write separate tests for the operations in those other protocols.
2017-12-22T13:55:16Z dim: mmm, it's on a brand new laptop, too
2017-12-22T13:55:29Z dim: I didn't make any setup yet, apart from installing quicklisp and slime
2017-12-22T13:56:30Z Xach_: dim: ok. if it can be recreated i would be very happy to help troubleshoot
2017-12-22T13:57:15Z phoe: beach: I'm still digesting the "there will be methods on the operations in the protocol that are specialized to the concrete subclasses" part.
2017-12-22T13:57:55Z dim: I think it's easy to reproduce. git clone https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader ~/dev/pgloader (or somewhere else), then ln -s ~/dev/pgloader ~/quicklisp/local-projects, then (ql:where-is-system "pgloader")
2017-12-22T13:58:41Z phoe: I have a protocol class FOO, with a method BAR invoked like (BAR FOO). I know that method BAR will always return a string; the contents of that string may vary from concrete class to concrete class, but the protocol says that it will always be a string.
2017-12-22T13:58:44Z dim: (maybe the ln has to be tweaked to work, I did it differently and just wrote the steps from memory, trying to adjust them to another env, etc)
2017-12-22T13:59:53Z beach: phoe: So if you have a concrete subclass of FOO, like BAZ, clearly, you will have a method on BAR that specialized on BAZ, or else you wouldn't need the concrete sublass.
2017-12-22T14:00:01Z phoe: Yes, this is correct.
2017-12-22T14:00:13Z phoe: And therefore my test will apply to the method BAZ.
2017-12-22T14:00:31Z beach: phoe: And this method will be run, i.e. tested, when you execute BAR with a BAZ as its argument.
2017-12-22T14:00:32Z phoe: s/method/subclass/
2017-12-22T14:00:41Z phoe: Yes, this is correct.
2017-12-22T14:01:06Z beach: And that's all that is required when it comes to the participation of BAZ in your protocol, so you are done.
2017-12-22T14:01:15Z phoe: If I have another subclass, QUUX, then (BAR QUUX) should also be tested with this test that I wrote. This is my thinking right now.
2017-12-22T14:01:57Z phoe: Like, if QUUX is a subclass of FOO, then it means that (BAR QUUX) should return a string, therefore the test I wrote before works also for QUUX.
2017-12-22T14:02:00Z beach: Sure, you need to run the tests for all possible subclasses, but that's not something to put in the protocol.  The protocol can't possibly "know" how to create instances of those classes.
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2017-12-22T14:02:16Z phoe: Yes, this is already about tests and less about protocols.
2017-12-22T14:02:19Z beach: That's the responsibility of the client code that creates BAZ and QUUX.
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2017-12-22T14:02:40Z phoe: I see.
2017-12-22T14:03:57Z phoe: So client code can prepare the instances of those classes in any way it wants, and then it can invoke tests that are bundled as a part of the protocol, and pass those instances to the tests as a parameter. Is this correct?
2017-12-22T14:06:18Z beach: That would certainly be possible, yes.  The protocol library can then contain tests that make sure that those classes respect some of the invariants that it defines.
2017-12-22T14:06:32Z beach: Invariants, preconditions, etc.
2017-12-22T14:06:41Z phoe: Yes, that is what I'm thinking.
2017-12-22T14:06:55Z phoe: The concrete classes can contain their own tests for whatever specific functionality the concrete classes provide.
2017-12-22T14:07:12Z phoe: s/contain/provide/
2017-12-22T14:07:17Z beach: Right.
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2017-12-22T14:09:52Z phoe: Hmm. I see.
2017-12-22T14:10:03Z phoe: Thanks!
2017-12-22T14:10:22Z beach: Sure.
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2017-12-22T14:59:04Z Xach_: dim: for me, as soon as the symlink exists, it is found by quicklisp first.
2017-12-22T14:59:08Z Xach_ can discuss later
2017-12-22T15:01:19Z dim: ccl and sbcl alike? (that might be the difference here, otherwise if you're interested I will nuke my asdf setup and reproduce)
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2017-12-22T15:02:03Z Xach_: dim: hmm, only tried sbcl. but last i checked they had the same behavior.
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2017-12-22T17:51:24Z jmarciano: hello
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2017-12-22T17:51:58Z oleo: evening
2017-12-22T17:52:37Z jmarciano: for some reason I cannot connect to #emacs, so maybe here somebody knows how to (read  from file in Emacs?
2017-12-22T17:53:32Z jmarciano: I am doing     (with-temp-file *my-activity-file* (insert (prin1-to-string data))) while data is hash
2017-12-22T17:53:55Z jmarciano: how can I simply read that data from file?
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2017-12-22T17:54:15Z jmarciano: I am needing something like (setf hash-data (read-from-file *my-activity-file*))
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2017-12-22T17:56:58Z Xach_: jmarciano: is that common lisp?
2017-12-22T17:57:09Z Xach_: in cl there is no standard read syntax for a hash table.
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2017-12-22T17:59:01Z Bike: emacs, they said
2017-12-22T17:59:26Z Bike: i didn't know it had prin1-to-string though
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2017-12-22T18:04:52Z Xach_: or *special-variables*
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2017-12-22T18:20:17Z PuercoPope: You can setup delay: /set irc.look.smart_filter_delay 5
2017-12-22T18:20:26Z PuercoPope: ups sorry about that
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2017-12-22T18:45:04Z pfdietz: If you just want to serialize and deserialize lisp objects to/from a file or stream, but not in readable format, then something like cl-store would be what you want.   https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/
2017-12-22T18:45:22Z pfdietz: "readable" as in "human readable, or readtable readable"
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2017-12-22T19:10:40Z jmercouris: Anyone know how to make CCL restarts not crash a compiled application?
2017-12-22T19:10:52Z jmercouris: E.g. maybe show a window to the user with available restarts
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2017-12-22T19:36:51Z jackdaniel: read ccl documentation for the function, which allows you creating binary
2017-12-22T19:37:00Z jackdaniel: save-application afair
2017-12-22T19:37:16Z jackdaniel: it has various options on what to do, when things break
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2017-12-22T20:07:21Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Ok, will do, thanks
2017-12-22T20:09:57Z jmercouris: Interesting, apparently the default behavior is to open a listener
2017-12-22T20:10:05Z jmercouris: but that only works when you launch the application via Terminal
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2017-12-22T20:18:15Z makomo: hi everyone, i'm using SLIME and have an ASDF system that has been loaded (created with quickproject). if i add to DEFPACKAGE a list of nicknames, what's the right thing to do for this change to take effect?
2017-12-22T20:18:56Z makomo: am i supposed to just re-eval the DEFPACKAGE form (not sure if that's legal)? or should i somehow reload the ASDF system?
2017-12-22T20:22:03Z rpg: makomo: You can do either.  re-eval should be sufficient.
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2017-12-22T20:23:24Z makomo: rpg: from what i can see in CLHS "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition."
2017-12-22T20:23:36Z makomo: so does everyone just rely on implementations being sane i guess?
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2017-12-22T20:25:58Z jackdaniel: makomo: since you are in development phase, you may see what implementation does and decide, if this is good enough for you
2017-12-22T20:26:11Z jackdaniel: you won't change package definition in "final" application at runtime
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2017-12-22T20:27:13Z rpg: makomo: I've only ever done this with SBCL and ACL, which both seem to Do The Right Thing.  Note that some changes like *removing* an export might not be reflected properly.  But adding a nickname should not be a "demanding" change for the implementation.
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2017-12-22T20:28:13Z makomo: jackdaniel: ah, fair point
2017-12-22T20:28:44Z makomo: rpg: yeah, i'm using SBCL. i would expect so too.
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2017-12-22T20:29:40Z rpg: Personally, I tend to do a lot of incremental compilation, and avoid full ASDF rebuilds for long periods of time.  Old habits from developing systems that have complicated internal state that I don't like to destroy and rebuild
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2017-12-22T20:43:27Z Fare: rpg: any time to review syntax-control ?
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2017-12-22T20:45:30Z rpg: Fare: I'll try to get to it today.
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2017-12-22T20:49:32Z Fare: thanks
2017-12-22T20:50:26Z Fare: the bug I reported this week (based on a a sly issue) is pretty damning and must be fixed in next release
2017-12-22T20:51:01Z Fare: I'll try to do an interactive session where I reproduce the bug, add a test case, and hopefully fix the bug before I send an MR.
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2017-12-22T21:29:38Z phoe: I like how roswell installs its quicklisp in a hidden directory.
2017-12-22T21:29:51Z phoe: So i no longer have a ~/quicklisp directory lying around after a default installation.
2017-12-22T21:30:32Z phoe: makomo: you can do either in this case. BUT
2017-12-22T21:30:53Z phoe: removing an export causes warnings on SBCL, "package FOO also exports the following symbols: BAR, BAZ, QUUX, ...", and the compilation fails.
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2017-12-22T21:30:58Z phoe: ASDF treats these as errors.
2017-12-22T21:31:08Z phoe: So you need to manually UNEXPORT things.
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2017-12-22T21:56:11Z PuercoPope: phoe in sl{y,ime} you can do C-c x with a negative argument to unexport it automatically (and remove it from the defpackage
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2017-12-22T21:57:13Z whoman: cool , did not know that =)
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2017-12-22T22:01:20Z phoe: PuercoPope: woah
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2017-12-22T22:10:34Z |3b|: is there some way to see if a symbol names a cffi enum or bitfield type?
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2017-12-22T22:11:19Z |3b|: (aside from just trying to use it as one and checking for errors)
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2017-12-22T22:16:45Z Shinmera: |3b|: Digging in the source gives me (typep (cffi::ensure-parsed-base-type 'foo) 'cffi::foreign-enum)
2017-12-22T22:16:51Z Shinmera: Obviously unexported, so
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2017-12-22T22:20:14Z Shinmera: Checking whether a symbol names a certain kind of CFFI type seems like something that would generally be desirable though, so raising an issue/discussion to add that functionality would be worth it
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2017-12-22T22:32:39Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1739837
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2017-12-22T22:34:04Z Shinmera: Great :)
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2017-12-22T23:10:00Z Xach_: fooey, twitter is rejecting my cool animated text gif as invalid
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2017-12-22T23:39:20Z |3b|: does (compile 'foo ...) remove existing compiler macros for FOO ?
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2017-12-23T04:00:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-23T04:05:42Z nydel: morning & good lambda to you
2017-12-23T04:05:53Z beach: Thanks.
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2017-12-23T08:16:09Z whoman: oh boy. "understanding one macro does not yield to understanding all of macrology, any more than understanding a particular formula of a particular theorum yields to understanding the whole of mathematics."
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2017-12-23T08:26:30Z beach: whoman: Where is that quotation from?
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2017-12-23T08:28:23Z antoszka: Book of the Prophets, Ez. 4,1.
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2017-12-23T08:41:08Z whoman: beach, i reworked it from just below here: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap3.html#sec_6
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2017-12-23T08:42:21Z beach: I see.
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2017-12-23T08:44:16Z whoman: kind of also like saying : understanding a programming language, does not mean understanding the program written with it
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2017-12-23T15:28:27Z Posterdati: hi
2017-12-23T15:28:35Z pjb: hi
2017-12-23T15:28:52Z Posterdati: please how can I overwrite a line with format? Thanks
2017-12-23T15:29:05Z pjb: This is not a feature of format.
2017-12-23T15:29:30Z pjb: The best way to do it, would be to use cl-charms (ncurses).
2017-12-23T15:29:51Z pjb: However, in practice, you may also make some implementation dependent assumptions.
2017-12-23T15:30:26Z Posterdati: ok
2017-12-23T15:30:27Z pjb: Like, if your implementation writes ASCII bytes converted from your character, then you could use the semi-standard character name #\return.
2017-12-23T15:30:28Z loke: Posterdati: You _might_ be able to do it by sending a CR.
2017-12-23T15:30:40Z loke: What pjb syas
2017-12-23T15:30:41Z loke: says
2017-12-23T15:30:50Z Posterdati: #\Return ??
2017-12-23T15:30:55Z pjb: (format t "Foo Bar Baz~CBar~%" #\return)
2017-12-23T15:31:07Z pjb: Yes, if it is available, it's its name.
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2017-12-23T15:31:24Z Posterdati: it prints ^M
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2017-12-23T15:31:43Z pjb: #+#.(cl:if (cl:ignore-errors (cl:read-from-string "#\\return")) '(:and) '(:or))  (format t "Foo Bar Baz~CBar~%" #\return)
2017-12-23T15:31:55Z pjb: Posterdati: yes, I forgot to mention the condition: if your terminal interprets it.
2017-12-23T15:32:05Z pjb: Posterdati: ie. not in slime!
2017-12-23T15:32:29Z Posterdati: I am in slime
2017-12-23T15:32:31Z Posterdati: !
2017-12-23T15:32:34Z pjb: For slime have a look at: https://framagit.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/blob/master/src/swank-terminal.lisp
2017-12-23T15:32:43Z Posterdati: ok
2017-12-23T15:32:56Z pjb: Posterdati: So you have to use a I/O layer with #+swank/#-swank
2017-12-23T15:33:08Z pjb: check this nasium-lse project for more example about this.
2017-12-23T15:33:17Z Posterdati: yes
2017-12-23T15:33:20Z Posterdati: thanks
2017-12-23T15:34:18Z pjb: There's also another way: you can open a xterm from a running program. So even if you use swank/slime, you can still open an xterm and send it ECMA-048 control sequences.
2017-12-23T15:34:51Z pjb: But it relies on implementation specific features, to open a pipe to the xterm and make a stream of it.
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2017-12-23T16:53:33Z makomo: is there anything in CL like haskell's mapConcat?
2017-12-23T16:54:00Z makomo: map a function over multiple lists, concatenate the resuting lists and return that
2017-12-23T16:54:34Z jackdaniel: (reduce 'append (mapcar 'foo list-1 list-2)) ;?
2017-12-23T16:55:03Z makomo: err, mapping over one list at a time
2017-12-23T16:55:18Z makomo: unless i'm mistaken about how MAPCAR (& co.) work?
2017-12-23T16:55:52Z makomo: from what i understand, if you give MAPCAR multiple lists it calls the function by passing it all of the current heads at the same time
2017-12-23T16:56:11Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-12-23T16:56:22Z jackdaniel: and what do you want to do? one after another?
2017-12-23T16:56:33Z makomo: an example of what i want would be (map-concat #'1+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) == (2 3 4 5 6 7)
2017-12-23T16:56:38Z makomo: jackdaniel: yes
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2017-12-23T16:59:27Z jackdaniel: I think there isn't something builtin
2017-12-23T16:59:47Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'1+ (flatten list-1 list-2 …))
2017-12-23T17:00:30Z jackdaniel: or not flatten, append rather
2017-12-23T17:01:45Z makomo: jackdaniel: ah that's much nicer, i was going to do it with a loop
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2017-12-23T19:35:39Z alandipert: makomo i think mapcat =~ mapConcat/flatMap
2017-12-23T19:35:43Z alandipert: err, mapcan
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2017-12-23T19:37:09Z alandipert scrolls up and sees thats not exactly what you want though
2017-12-23T19:37:43Z makomo: yeah :-)
2017-12-23T19:38:02Z alandipert: another related thing is the nconc keyword in loop macro
2017-12-23T19:38:22Z alandipert: just ran across it the other day, pretty weird. of course i'm in the loop macro fetish camp, ymmv
2017-12-23T19:39:01Z makomo: hm, coming back to what i said, i think i might have described it in a wrong way
2017-12-23T19:39:07Z makomo: i'll report back soon
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2017-12-23T23:38:19Z Xach_: Well, vecto just grew a bunch of handy but undocumented capability.
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2017-12-23T23:47:30Z Shinmera: Xach_: Making more gif-creator websites?
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2017-12-23T23:48:14Z Xach_: Shinmera: yes. but i want to share the code and it's easier if some unlumped stuff is lumped.
2017-12-23T23:48:53Z jmercouris: Xach_: Why are you working on a gif-creator website?
2017-12-23T23:49:11Z rme: fame and fortune, obviously
2017-12-23T23:49:18Z jmercouris: lol
2017-12-23T23:50:11Z Xach_: jmercouris: I find it fun
2017-12-23T23:50:22Z Xach_: jmercouris: i made one 10 years ago and sold it a couple years ago and i miss making them.
2017-12-23T23:50:56Z jmercouris: If you made one gif making website, why did you make another?
2017-12-23T23:51:03Z jmercouris: are they completely different concepts or just iterations of the same tool?
2017-12-23T23:51:09Z Xach_: https://twitter.com/xach/status/944350894275088391 has some example output
2017-12-23T23:51:15Z Shinmera just realised he doesn't find any of his projects particularly fun and wonders why
2017-12-23T23:51:22Z Shinmera: *of his own
2017-12-23T23:51:41Z Xach_: jmercouris: I had a site that had 10 or so graphics toys on it, and I sold the whole set together, and I've been making smaller new ones since then.
2017-12-23T23:51:43Z rme: jmercouris: I could also ask why are you working on a web browser?
2017-12-23T23:52:00Z Xach_: https://imgur.com/a/Z2WjH too
2017-12-23T23:52:01Z jmercouris: rme: I'm not working on several versions of a web browser though :D
2017-12-23T23:52:20Z Xach_: jmercouris: each gif generator does something different
2017-12-23T23:52:21Z jmercouris: Xach_: So basically it's not about the gif making websites, about making gif effects?
2017-12-23T23:52:29Z jmercouris: Right yeah, that's what I was about to say
2017-12-23T23:53:28Z Xach_: I gave a lightning talk on the topic at ILC 2009. Guy Steele introduced me. Pretty thrilling.
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2017-12-23T23:53:51Z Xach_: (he introduced every lightning talker and knew none of them, but still a thrill)
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2017-12-23T23:54:18Z rme: I was very pleased when he said "good job" to me.
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2017-12-23T23:55:06Z rme: That was a kind gesture.
2017-12-23T23:55:10Z jmercouris: Ok, makes sense
2017-12-23T23:55:20Z jmercouris: I had the impression that you were just making giphy clones over and over again
2017-12-23T23:55:35Z jmercouris: and was wondering what exactly would be interesting about that :D
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2017-12-23T23:55:52Z Xach_: I was pretty close to selling my first generator to icanhazcheezburger.com to power their stuff. that would have been cool.
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2017-12-23T23:56:01Z jmercouris: That would have been pretty cool
2017-12-23T23:56:11Z jmercouris: I think the gif train is over though, these days seems to be moving to gifv
2017-12-23T23:56:20Z jmercouris: have you been playing with mp4s etc?
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2017-12-23T23:56:48Z Shinmera: Format doesn't really matter, you can just throw it through ffmpeg
2017-12-23T23:56:59Z Xach_: i had just read an article about how they were charging something like $1000/week for ad units and they had a lot of ad units, so i asked for a lot of money too. but they didn't want to pay.
2017-12-23T23:57:15Z Xach_ waxes nostalgic
2017-12-23T23:57:18Z rme: It is really satisfying to see people use a tool you have worked on to make something new and cool.
2017-12-23T23:57:24Z lerax: Xach_: a lot of money... how much?
2017-12-23T23:57:45Z lerax: rme: indeed.
2017-12-23T23:58:02Z Xach_: rme: https://twitter.com/inconvergent got me back on the kick. he uses vecto, i think. (in much more arty ways than i ever did)
2017-12-23T23:58:19Z Xach_: lerax: I think I asked for $6,000
2017-12-23T23:58:27Z AJavaIdiot: hi guys
2017-12-23T23:58:35Z rme: He's making great stuff.
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2017-12-23T23:59:17Z AJavaIdiot: Can someone help me understand what fexprs do that a normal expression can't do?
2017-12-23T23:59:24Z AJavaIdiot: pretend I'm living up to my name
2017-12-23T23:59:36Z lerax: Xach_: really this seems a lot of money. xD I'm a poor programmer. With $6.000 where I live I can buy a new house xD
2017-12-23T23:59:54Z lerax: * $6,000 *
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2017-12-24T00:00:20Z AJavaIdiot: A concrete example: (defun (smth) (this-is-a-fexpr (op x y))). How does this differ (aside from syntax) from (defun (smth) (this-is-NOT-a-fexpr '(op x y)))?
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2017-12-24T00:05:01Z earl-ducaine: lerax: where I live $6000 gets you ~2/mo. rent in a not especially nice 1br apt.  Such is the capatalist world we live in.
2017-12-24T00:05:11Z Xach_: AJavaIdiot: this channel is for common lisp, which doesn't have fexprs. maybe someone here can discuss it, but it's not really topical.
2017-12-24T00:05:18Z Xach_ knows nothing of fexprs, still enjoys common lisp
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2017-12-24T00:06:15Z Xach_: lerax: sure. it was a lot at the time. i thought maybe because they were making lots of money they might be wasteful. but they didn't, and they have grown extremely rich and successful, so they probably remain prudent.
2017-12-24T00:07:25Z lerax: Xach_: makes sense.
2017-12-24T00:07:39Z AJavaIdiot: Xach_: yeah, I know cl doesn't have them, but I thought someone might be able to answer my question
2017-12-24T00:08:17Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Format does matter, how you do the transformations and whatever encoding you do can vastly alter the quality of the final image
2017-12-24T00:08:47Z AJavaIdiot: But it is topical in a hamfisted way: not having fexprs in CL was a deliberate decision which can be questioned :d
2017-12-24T00:08:57Z lerax: earl-ducaine: crazy stuff. Where you live? Well, I live in a third-quality country, so this probably makes sense.
2017-12-24T00:09:37Z lerax: earl-ducaine: where I live getting 1000 U$ per month for a junior is ok. "ok".
2017-12-24T00:09:55Z lerax: earl-ducaine: actually this is terrible, but whatever, rules of the local market.
2017-12-24T00:10:13Z rme: AJavaIdiot: have you read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html ?
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2017-12-24T00:10:55Z lerax: AJavaIdiot: Your nickname is nice. I liked it.
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2017-12-24T00:12:00Z AJavaIdiot: rme: yes, but I didn't really understand why fexprs wouldn't work in a lexically scoped lisp
2017-12-24T00:12:23Z AJavaIdiot: lerax: thanks :d
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2017-12-24T00:13:57Z earl-ducaine: lerax: San Francisco.  (median for 1br is actually about $3500/mo)  Not complaining of course, but if a developer is trying to scrape together enough money to put a roof over his head and feed himself, he has to charge, or work it as a hobby, gratus.
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2017-12-24T00:25:06Z jmercouris: rme: Do you have that same satisfaction when people use CCL or no?
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2017-12-24T00:27:18Z rme: That's a big reason why I like to work on it.
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2017-12-24T00:30:10Z rme: Every so often, I find out that someone I've never met or heard from before is using CCL.
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2017-12-24T00:31:07Z rme: That's always a pleasure to hear. I have often wished there were some way to know more about who is using it.
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2017-12-24T00:36:17Z Xach_: When I first added paypal donations to quicklisp.org, I sent a handwritten postcard to a hundred or so initial donors. I wonder if anyone kept the cards.
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2017-12-24T03:43:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-24T03:43:22Z smokeink: morning beach
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2017-12-24T07:31:20Z borei: hi all !
2017-12-24T07:31:42Z borei: need some help with glfw :-(
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2017-12-24T07:38:09Z borei: does anybody has experience with it ?
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2017-12-24T10:03:59Z jackdaniel: borei: its usually more wise to ask the question you have with providing details for the problem – if someone knows the answer he will probably share it with you
2017-12-24T10:04:09Z jackdaniel: asking to ask isn't best strategy here ;-)
2017-12-24T10:04:25Z jackdaniel: you may also try on #lispgames
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2017-12-24T10:08:58Z beach: I agree.  Even if I were familiar with that software, I wouldn't admit that until I know what the problem is.
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2017-12-24T10:10:46Z Shinmera: Having to ask back also makes it a lot more tedious. I often don't answer even if I knew what the solution was or could possibly help simply because I can't seems like too much of an annoyance.
2017-12-24T10:11:02Z Shinmera: *because it seems like too much of an annoyance
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2017-12-24T10:21:57Z Shinmera: In other news, a Portacle release for the Raspberry Pi might happen.
2017-12-24T10:23:57Z Shinmera: I'm saying might because it'll be a while until it finishes compiling and I know for sure if there's any problems.
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2017-12-24T10:38:43Z phoe: borei: ask the question instead of asking about asking the question
2017-12-24T10:38:58Z phoe: this removes one level of meta-discussion and is therefore much more efficient.
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2017-12-24T12:40:00Z razzy: merry christmas everyone :] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V819vqhnkuk
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2017-12-24T12:49:41Z jackdaniel: thanks! you too (and everyone :-)
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2017-12-24T12:56:25Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/2H44CD9
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2017-12-24T13:37:33Z santakolb: GTK3 bindings anyone?
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2017-12-24T14:04:29Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-12-24T14:05:31Z Posterdati: happy Christmas people
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2017-12-24T14:30:26Z oleo: happy happy Posterdati
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2017-12-24T14:50:01Z ym: Is there Lie groups library for Common Lisp?
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2017-12-24T14:57:16Z ym: Found LambdaTensor1.0.1.tar.gz in archive.org.
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2017-12-24T15:00:37Z ym: So the question is - is there alive analogue of this library?
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2017-12-24T15:14:44Z ym: Oh, it has ready to use E8.
2017-12-24T15:14:50Z ym: I love archive.org!
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2017-12-24T15:21:41Z myrkraverk: I went ahead and ordered the dead tree version of CL Recipes.
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2017-12-24T15:21:49Z myrkraverk: I hope it's as good as people here say it is.
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2017-12-24T17:39:31Z makomo: Shinmera: hey, just letting you know plump/clss/lquery are great. used them yesterday to scrape a site and they worked like a charm!
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2017-12-24T17:47:23Z Shinmera: makomo: Glad to hear!
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2017-12-24T17:50:06Z makomo: :-)
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2017-12-24T17:55:22Z makomo: Shinmera: i'm taking a look at plump's source code out of curiosity and have a question. how come all the other asdf systems except for PLUMP don't have any components? what's their purpose then?
2017-12-24T17:55:43Z makomo: i.e. PLUMP-LEXER, PLUMP-DOM and PLUMP-PARSER
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2017-12-24T18:16:09Z mfiano: makomo: In an older revision, everything was split up into separate systems. They are now there solely for backwards compatibility it seems -- so existing reverse dependencies that are using them do not break
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2017-12-24T18:17:54Z makomo: mfiano: ah, that makes sense
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2017-12-24T18:49:40Z borei: hi all, just got tired yesterday, finally found where the problem is but can't solve it. so here is description.
2017-12-24T18:50:11Z borei: i have glfw app. it's 2 threaded - 1 thread REPL, 2nd thread glfw main loop
2017-12-24T18:50:49Z borei: i consider 2nd thread as main glfw thread (not sure if that assumption is valid)
2017-12-24T18:51:11Z borei: in the 2nd thread i do glfw init and create glfw window.
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2017-12-24T18:52:17Z borei: the problem popped up when i do call glfwMakeContextCurrent in the 2nd thread
2017-12-24T18:52:31Z borei: im getting Error code: 10008
2017-12-24T18:52:31Z borei: Error message: GLX: Failed to make context current
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2017-12-24T18:52:37Z borei: in glfw notation
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2017-12-24T18:53:58Z borei: 10008 means GLFW_PLATFORM_ERROR
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2017-12-24T18:54:25Z borei: it's can be configuration (some glfw hints) or im hitting glfw bug
2017-12-24T18:55:04Z borei: when i do call glfwMakeContextCurrent in REPL thread it works fine
2017-12-24T18:55:44Z borei: based on glfw documentation glfwMakeContextCurrent can be used in<any thread
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2017-12-24T18:57:15Z borei: apperantly problem is with glfw+threads+glx, there is nothing do with lisp, but maybe somebody has experience with it
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2017-12-24T19:09:06Z borei: wow
2017-12-24T19:09:11Z borei: solved
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2017-12-24T19:09:26Z borei: it's really true that brain can work in background
2017-12-24T19:09:57Z borei: context need to be released befor it can be used in different thread
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2017-12-24T20:46:02Z makomo: is there anything like CASE but which uses a user-specified comparator instead of EQ?
2017-12-24T20:46:53Z makomo: for example, i want to branch on the values of an integer, but don't want to use COND and always repeat (= myint val)
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2017-12-24T20:47:27Z makomo: instead i would just use "val", as in CASE
2017-12-24T20:47:53Z _death: there's alexandria:switch
2017-12-24T20:48:32Z _death: and CASE uses EQL, not EQ.. so you can use integers
2017-12-24T20:49:00Z makomo: oh, hmm, i must have done something wrong then
2017-12-24T20:50:14Z makomo: _death: yeah, my bad, thanks!
2017-12-24T20:50:21Z _death: it doesn't evaluate the keys, so maybe that's the issue.. alexandria:switch does evaluate
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2017-12-24T21:02:29Z pfdietz: If you have constant special variables you want in a CASE form, you can evaluate them at read time with #.
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2017-12-24T21:03:18Z aeth: Not always.
2017-12-24T21:03:40Z aeth: I had reader macro workarounds for using constants in macros and it worked on SBCL and ECL, but not CCL
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2017-12-24T21:11:34Z _death: the value may not be available during read-time
2017-12-24T21:12:07Z _death: so you'll need eval-when as well
2017-12-24T21:12:29Z rme: :1
2017-12-24T21:12:32Z rme: oops
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2017-12-24T21:16:32Z pjb: aeth: you have to eval-when :compile-toplevel the defconstant for them to be available in the compilation environment, when the remaining forms are read.
2017-12-24T21:16:51Z pjb: aeth: ie. it's not a problem in the forms using the constant variables, it's a problem with defconstant.
2017-12-24T21:17:28Z pjb: clhs defconstant "An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both. "
2017-12-24T21:18:39Z pjb: ALso interesting, the following sentence: "Therefore, users must ensure that the initial-value can be evaluated at compile time (regardless of whether or not references to name appear in the file) and that it always evaluates to the same value."
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2017-12-24T21:20:20Z pjb: Notably, defvar/defparameter don't evaluate at compilation time, so (defparameter *foo* 42) (defconstant +foo+ *foo*) cannot work. (defconstant +foo+ 42) (defparameter *foo* +foo+) will work.
2017-12-24T21:20:59Z _death: alexandria also has define-constant which helps with "evaluates to the same value"
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2017-12-24T21:24:40Z pjb: aeth: so what did you reader macro do?  (+ +bar+ (case foo (#.+foo1+ 1) (#.+foo2+ 2))) is good enough. How do you justify !something(+ +bar+ (case foo (+foo1+ 1) (+foo2+ 2))) and do you avoid expanding +bar+?
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2017-12-24T21:40:39Z aeth: pjb: sorry, I phrased that wrong, I used the read-eval reader macro, I didn't write my own reader macro
2017-12-24T21:40:59Z aeth: And maybe eval-when will fix it. Strange that it works on sbcl anyway.
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2017-12-24T21:42:15Z aeth: iirc (it has been a few months), #.+foo+ didn't work in CCL
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2017-12-24T21:48:10Z aeth: pjb: Something like this: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1690464
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2017-12-24T21:50:01Z pjb: aeth: you don't need #. in this defun.
2017-12-24T21:50:27Z pjb: #. is only needed in case clauses, because they don't evaluate their keys.
2017-12-24T21:50:39Z aeth: Wrapping it in eval-when makes it work in CCL
2017-12-24T21:50:50Z aeth: So that fixes my issues! I can remove magic numbers from my code!
2017-12-24T21:51:08Z aeth: pjb: The problem is when using macros that expect something quoted rather than something evaluated. That's where I need to use #.+foo+
2017-12-24T21:51:14Z aeth: I just wanted to create the simplest way to reproduce it
2017-12-24T21:52:13Z aeth: Apparently defconstant in CCL is treated differently than in SBCL and ECL, and requires that eval-when
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2017-12-24T21:52:46Z pjb: cf. comment https://gitlab.com/snippets/1690464
2017-12-24T21:53:08Z pjb: Yes, combined with macros, this is another thing.
2017-12-24T21:53:28Z aeth: I miss lisp paste
2017-12-24T21:53:31Z pjb: aeth: but it's conforming. As cited above, implementations are allowed.
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2017-12-24T22:02:47Z Shinmera: makomo: What mfiano mentioned is right. Initially there was just PLUMP. Then I split it up into LEXER, DOM, and PARSER as individual systems since it seemed like a good idea. Recently though a new feature required DOM to depend on PARSER and vice-versa, so I had to go back again.
2017-12-24T22:02:54Z Shinmera: See https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/commit/bb8d7111be915f102c6eb2839f50b7328c801f08 https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/commit/89e21c1efe57ab6c9d5df756231fd00ce67a2e84
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2017-12-24T23:30:18Z peterppp: what's the most robust json library for clisp?
2017-12-24T23:33:43Z Xach_: peterppp: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries has some good info
2017-12-24T23:33:54Z Xach_: peterppp: i use yason but might try st-json sometime
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2017-12-24T23:34:41Z peterppp: Xach_, wow that's a great overview, thanks!
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2017-12-24T23:39:02Z Xach_: yes, it's a nice service
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2017-12-25T00:12:41Z aeth: It won't help anyone who needs it right now, but I think I'm going to try writing a JSON library when I need JSON support, which will be when I add support for glTF to my engine. https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/
2017-12-25T00:12:52Z aeth: That's a model format that uses JSON
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2017-12-25T00:21:39Z peterppp: aeth, why write your own?
2017-12-25T00:22:37Z aeth: peterppp: Each JSON library has its flaws. And afaik all of them by default do not use a reasonable round-trip mapping of CL <-> JSON
2017-12-25T00:22:48Z peterppp: aha
2017-12-25T00:23:12Z aeth: e.g. cl-json's default is to go nil <-> null and nil -> false, whereas a better way of dealing with it would be nil <-> false and :null <-> null
2017-12-25T00:24:19Z aeth: Ideally, every arrow should be two-directional, except of course when more than one thing in CL becomes one thing in JSON, but even there, you should just be choosing between which two-directional thing
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2017-12-25T00:26:15Z aeth: e.g. #() <-> [] and '(:json-list) -> [] is fine because you could easily configure it to go #() -> [] and '(:json-list) <-> [] instead. But bare lists shouldn't be supported because then you get the ambiguity of alist (should be JSON object) vs. plist (should be JSON object) vs. list (should be JSON array) vs. nil-as-empty-list (should be false, but some people could also treat this as JSON null, too)
2017-12-25T00:27:24Z aeth: peterppp: Just the nil <-> false fails in literally all of these. https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries#TOC-Mapping-Data-Structures-from-lisp-to-JSON
2017-12-25T00:28:02Z aeth: cl-json and yason choose perhaps the most incorrect choice, of treating nil as null. st-json and jsown and jonathan produces [] and com.gigamonkeys.json produces {}
2017-12-25T00:28:37Z aeth: And some of these are configurable, e.g. cl-json, but defaults matter. And you shouldn't be able to do absolute nonsense like nil -> null or nil <-> null.
2017-12-25T00:29:03Z aeth: I'm surprised literally all of these fail the nil test, though.
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2017-12-25T00:33:07Z aeth: Adding a keyword "tag" to a list isn't hard because you just cons on a :foo tag and then when you're dealing with it as data, take the cdr of it. So that's the approach I'll use for distinguishing alists, plists, and regular lists. But by default I'll have JSON read into hash-tables and vectors because those are unambiguous and don't need to be "tagged".
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2017-12-25T00:36:29Z aeth: I do have a separate false instead of treating nil as false when I work with embedded programming languages within CL, such as my still-incomplete cl-scheme. But that's imo totally unnecessary for JSON when you can just not support bare lists and have a :null keyword.
2017-12-25T00:37:51Z aeth: peterppp: My advice for you if you're not going to make your own JSON parser would be to find a configurable library and configure it to actually have reasonable cl <-> json.
2017-12-25T00:38:18Z aeth: It's unfortunate that none of them have what I would consider reasonable defaults because defaults are extremely important in software, and are often neglected.
2017-12-25T00:39:50Z peterppp: hmm I wasn't going to write my own
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2017-12-25T00:41:23Z aeth: Imo, the best mapping of the difficult parts is #() <-> [] and (make-hash-table) <-> {} and nil <-> false and :null <-> null, if you're willing to work with vectors and hash tables instead of lists for the part that interfaces with JSON.
2017-12-25T00:42:36Z aeth: :false <-> false would be even more unambiguous, but is probably unnecessary as long as you don't serialize plain lists (which create the three-way ambiguity when there's an empty list)
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2017-12-25T00:42:51Z aeth: (four-way, even)
2017-12-25T00:44:10Z aeth: If you can configure that in an existing library, you can go cl -> json -> cl or json -> cl -> json losslessly
2017-12-25T00:45:11Z aeth: (well, except the order of things can change due to the hash table)
2017-12-25T00:46:06Z pjb: Funny that you should mention it.  I can guarantee you that if you change the order, this will break some components somewhere!
2017-12-25T00:46:25Z aeth: probably.
2017-12-25T00:46:43Z pjb: Of course, JSON dictionaries are not ordered, but it's a 100% certainty that some software out there expects entries in a given order.
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2017-12-25T00:48:53Z aeth: When I write my own JSON library, it'll support alists and plists prefixed with :json-object-plist and :json-object-alist and lists prefixed with :json-array. So (:json-array 1 2 3 4) -> [1, 2, 3, 4] and (:json-object-plist :foo 42 :bar 37) -> {"foo" : 42, "bar" : 37} and (:json-object-alist (:foo . 42) (bar . 37)) -> {"foo" : 42, "bar" : 37}
2017-12-25T00:49:13Z aeth: Of course, optionally reading it into alist or plist instead of hash tables in case the order needs to be kept
2017-12-25T00:49:47Z aeth: s/(bar ./(:bar ./
2017-12-25T00:50:23Z aeth: I'll probably have to also have a configuration for how keywords <-> strings is handled. By default, it'd be upcase to CL and downcase to JSON, but I'm sure some JSON is case sensitive and that won't work.
2017-12-25T00:50:40Z aeth: This is making me want to write a quick, inefficient prototype of it now.
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2017-12-25T00:52:52Z aeth: On top of the JSON library, I might want to add some YAML support, too. There are apparently 3 YAML libraries in Quicklisp, but I don't think there were any when I was looking for one years ago. YAML is built on top of JSON. I probably don't need to deal with XML.
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2017-12-25T01:02:38Z pjb: aeth: I already indicated the right way to do it: you need to have a model of the JSON ontology in lisp (implemented eg. with CLOS classes).  Then you can provide niceties such as converting p-list or a-list to and from instances of this JSON model ("DOM").  But at least, the JSON serialization and deserialization between these ontological objects can be done with 100% fidelity and clean roundtrips.
2017-12-25T01:03:16Z pjb: And if your lisp data is not of the kind expected in an application, you can always instanciate those DOM classes to create or parse exactly the JSON you have to process.
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2017-12-25T01:08:56Z aeth: pjb: I was thinking about something more like this: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1690468
2017-12-25T01:10:14Z aeth: And for alists and plists, no need for the overhead of CLOS objects, just make the car :json-object-plist or :json-object-alist, which is just a trivial (cons :json-object-plist some-plist) before passing it into the JSON generator. For nested JSON generation it'd be a bit trickier, though.
2017-12-25T01:10:25Z pjb: The question I ask, is whether a CL hash-table is entirely semantically equivalent to a JSON dictionary?
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2017-12-25T01:10:39Z pjb: aeth: and besides, your code is full of bugs.  eg. line 15 is dead wrong.
2017-12-25T01:11:12Z aeth: pjb: Yes, line 15 is wrong
2017-12-25T01:11:23Z aeth: pjb: But properly handling numbers and strings is where the real complexity is!
2017-12-25T01:11:33Z aeth: And I can handwave that away right now
2017-12-25T01:11:45Z peterppp: has anyone here set up a websocket server with clisp?
2017-12-25T01:12:01Z pjb: Have fun with |foo": 42, "thisIsASymbol|
2017-12-25T01:12:07Z peterppp: I just played around with this library https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver
2017-12-25T01:12:49Z peterppp: but apparently the server has no way of finding out which client an incoming message came from
2017-12-25T01:13:37Z peterppp: then there's clws but the last commit was made 5 years ago
2017-12-25T01:13:39Z aeth: pjb: My current design is assuming that the CL user is going to try to generate sane JSON and that the JSON is where the potential incompatibilities are. Sanitizing the CL symbols, etc., is going to really hurt the performance, so even in the final thing, I'd leave that off by default.
2017-12-25T01:13:47Z pjb: peterppp: what's specific to clisp in your question?
2017-12-25T01:14:24Z peterppp: specific to clist..?
2017-12-25T01:14:27Z peterppp: clisp
2017-12-25T01:14:31Z peterppp: well I'm using that
2017-12-25T01:15:06Z aeth: pjb: I could replace it with a (format t "~S" string), though, and that will escape things automatically afaik. So then the issue is with edge cases in string escaping.
2017-12-25T01:15:25Z pjb: aeth: json specifies java format for floating point numbers!
2017-12-25T01:15:44Z pjb: aeth: before saying that you will write your own buggy implementation, why don't you read the specification for JSON?
2017-12-25T01:15:58Z aeth: I mean this: (format t "~S" (string-downcase (symbol-name key)))
2017-12-25T01:16:12Z aeth: (obviously the stream will be configurable in the final version)
2017-12-25T01:16:14Z pjb: we already have at least 3 different JSON libraries in quicklisp, I don't think it's worth writing yet another one.
2017-12-25T01:16:47Z aeth: pjb: The problem is that all of the JSON libraries' defaults are shit. They all fail the nil test, i.e. nil <-> something-in-json is an absurdly bad choice in all of them. And defaults matter.
2017-12-25T01:17:19Z pjb: peterppp: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/socket.html#sost-hopo
2017-12-25T01:17:40Z pjb: aeth: default don't matter, if the rest is full of bugfs.
2017-12-25T01:18:31Z aeth: pjb: There are almost certainly bugs in all of them if the authors couldn't even be bothered to establish a reasonable cl <-> json mapping in the basic library design, which is the starting point of a JSON library, not some detail to work out later.
2017-12-25T01:18:41Z peterppp: pjb, is this for websockets? I can't tell
2017-12-25T01:19:00Z pjb: peterppp: this is the clisp function to find the IP of the client connected to a socket.
2017-12-25T01:19:15Z pjb: aeth: See above what I said about a JSOM DOM.
2017-12-25T01:22:42Z pjb: peterppp: to find the socket object you will have to navigate thru all the layers…
2017-12-25T01:23:04Z aeth: pjb: That could perhaps produce a cleaner result, but not a faster result. I need JSON support to read in 3D model formats that at least partially use JSON because JSON's trendy at the moment. So I will sacrifice some good design for performance, which seems to be the norm for game engines.
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2017-12-25T01:23:38Z pjb: Oh, in that case I can understand the want for a specific implementation.
2017-12-25T01:23:53Z aeth: My personal design considerations are (1) a better cl <-> json mapping and (2) better performance
2017-12-25T01:24:26Z peterppp: maybe I can modify the library so that an object representing the socket is passed to the message handler
2017-12-25T01:24:30Z pjb: Just serialize directly your model, no need to go thru even lisp generic data structures.
2017-12-25T01:24:48Z aeth: It'll be primarily used for the JSON part of reading/writing glTF for now
2017-12-25T01:25:09Z aeth: So it'll probably have a bunch of optimizations that only make sense for glTF and any other JSON-based model formats that I happen to add support for later
2017-12-25T01:25:40Z aeth: At the moment, I'm going to handle .obj models and glTF models for import/export, in addition to a binary internal 3D format.
2017-12-25T01:26:04Z aeth: For textures, I'm just going to handle PNG because there's a good library for that and I don't have to write my own.
2017-12-25T01:26:48Z pjb: aeth: but if you write floating points, take into account the format specified for json floating point numbers!
2017-12-25T01:26:56Z aeth: The only other media format I think I'll have to support is sound... and I'm not going to even deal with sound yet. I'll probably need to support Opus and OGG Theora and maybe flac.
2017-12-25T01:27:26Z aeth: And the only other data format I'm going to mess with is an s-expressions-as-data format, which is fairly easy.
2017-12-25T01:28:26Z whoman: aeth, why not patch up an existing json lib ?
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2017-12-25T01:28:42Z aeth: whoman: (1) their defaults are bad, (2) they usually focus on flexibility over performance
2017-12-25T01:28:50Z whoman: thanks for the link to glTF btw, seems cool
2017-12-25T01:28:59Z whoman: aeth, ah =)
2017-12-25T01:29:19Z aeth: whoman: I want reasonable defaults and if I control the library, I can cheat and patch the library to meet all of the performance requirements necessary for the particular glTF JSON that I will be dealing with
2017-12-25T01:30:00Z aeth: And I really hope that between OBJ and glTF I don't have to support any other import/export for models... because there are so many 3D model portability formats. More than a dozen.
2017-12-25T01:30:46Z aeth: The older ones tend to use XML because that was trendy at the time. The newer ones tend to use JSON because that's trendy now.
2017-12-25T01:32:08Z whoman: minus the obligatory quotes and semicolons , its a fairly nice generic syntax format
2017-12-25T01:32:27Z whoman: used to basically design software in that syntax anyhow back in the day in C/c++/objc lands
2017-12-25T01:33:03Z whoman loves NSDictionary also. which is also QuakeEd level editor map format and original DoomEd BSP format  ........ so maybe a bit biased
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2017-12-25T01:33:20Z sabrac: Hello all
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2017-12-25T01:33:54Z whoman: hi one
2017-12-25T01:35:05Z aeth: whoman: An id tech 3 (or perhaps earlier) asset importer would be cool. There are a lot of cool maps, etc., in id tech 3. That would be a much lower priority thing to do.
2017-12-25T01:35:28Z aeth: Because, really, "can it run Doom?" should apply to game engines, too. :-p
2017-12-25T01:36:12Z sabrac: Does anyone know who pulled together the unicode data files for cl-l10n-cldr?
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2017-12-25T01:39:49Z aeth: pjb: Does JSON require a more formal specification than the diagrams on its website? I've always just used the diagrams. https://json.org/
2017-12-25T01:39:56Z aeth: so for numbers this: https://json.org/number.gif
2017-12-25T01:40:26Z aeth: They very helpfully suggest how to structure code to read/write JSON
2017-12-25T01:41:26Z aeth: ah, I see, there's an actual PDF. https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-404.pdf
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2017-12-25T01:41:44Z aeth: It doesn't stand out much, I have never noticed it before.
2017-12-25T01:42:10Z aeth: oh, good, it's mostly just those diagrams.
2017-12-25T01:43:08Z pjb: aeth: the diagrams are formal enough for the syntax; remains some elements of the semantics, but since it's a data representation language, there's not too much of it. (like meaning of order in various places, what about duplicates, etc)
2017-12-25T01:44:07Z aeth: great
2017-12-25T01:44:39Z |3b|: sabrac: looks like it is just data files from unicode.org with an asd file so ql can download it. http://cldr.unicode.org/
2017-12-25T01:46:27Z aeth: So what I'm probably going to do is support: data s-expressions (.sxp), json (going to write this with the glTF support in mind), and maybe yaml. For 2D, just PNG for now (fortunately, I don't need to write this, at least for reading PNG files). For 3D, OBJ and glTF (requires JSON). For audio, probably Opus and Ogg Theora and *maybe* Flac. And everything else will be internal custom formats.
2017-12-25T01:47:01Z aeth: Hopefully that's sufficient enough and external conversion tools can handle the rest.
2017-12-25T01:47:04Z sabrac: |3b| yes, that is what it looks like. Just wondering who did it. I like to give credit where credit is due.
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2017-12-25T02:22:58Z Xach_: sabrac: Attila Lendvai did it
2017-12-25T02:23:04Z Xach_: aka attila_lendvai
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2017-12-25T02:27:52Z sabrac: <Xach> Thank you
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2017-12-25T03:57:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-25T04:29:15Z dmiles: whould this be adequate semantically?  (defmacro pushnew (item place &rest rest) `(unless (member ,item ,place ,@rest) (push ,item ,place)))
2017-12-25T04:29:52Z beach: No.
2017-12-25T04:30:27Z dmiles: i am looking at where everyone else passes in an environment.. that is required isnt it?
2017-12-25T04:30:35Z beach: Consider (pushnew (incf *special*) place)
2017-12-25T04:30:50Z beach: Here, INCF will be evaluated twice.
2017-12-25T04:31:04Z dmiles: oh oops
2017-12-25T04:31:25Z beach: Read the book On Lisp.  It discusses this issue.
2017-12-25T04:32:32Z dmiles: i guess i have to gensym and do it right
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2017-12-25T04:34:08Z beach: In this case, you probably also need to use GET-SETF-EXPANDER.
2017-12-25T04:34:41Z beach: Consider (pushnew 234 (aref *vector* (incf *special*)))
2017-12-25T04:39:34Z dmiles: indeed
2017-12-25T04:40:45Z dmiles: https://pastebin.com/trzMmZ6Z  <- many use  get-setf-expander
2017-12-25T04:47:23Z Bike: "Can't specify the actual keywords [in the macro lambda list] since, apparently, non-constant keywords should be accepted." is an interesting if only tangentially related comment
2017-12-25T04:47:33Z Bike: i've been wondering how &key works with compiler macros...
2017-12-25T04:53:07Z dmiles: i see how it is related
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2017-12-25T04:54:17Z dmiles: what makes me slightly crazy is that the package that keys go into or come from is so random
2017-12-25T04:55:30Z beach: Bike: Where is that remark from?
2017-12-25T04:55:54Z Bike: the comment in the sbcl implementation of pushnew in the pastebin.
2017-12-25T04:56:03Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-12-25T04:56:15Z beach: Compiler macros are very tricky.
2017-12-25T04:56:40Z Bike: non constant keyword arguments are tricky too
2017-12-25T04:56:44Z dmiles: sorry SICLS didnt fit into the grep :(
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2017-12-25T04:57:41Z Bike: well, it also uses get setf expansion
2017-12-25T04:59:01Z dmiles: i kinda liek how specializations happen in SICL .. i might end up using that simular trick
2017-12-25T04:59:12Z dmiles: (the |member test=eql key=other|)
2017-12-25T04:59:37Z beach: That code might be obsolete.
2017-12-25T04:59:51Z beach: Are you looking at the sequence functions?
2017-12-25T05:00:34Z dmiles: well that specialization methodolgy seemed to be happening all over the place
2017-12-25T05:00:51Z dmiles: that was in ./reference/SICL/Code/Cons-high/cons-high.lisp
2017-12-25T05:01:03Z beach: That code is also obsolete. :)
2017-12-25T05:01:30Z dmiles: oh and in ./reference/SICL/Code/Cons/pushnew-defmacro
2017-12-25T05:01:57Z beach: OK, that one is not obsolete.
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2017-12-25T05:12:01Z dmiles: i keep meaning to ask.. is there ever a time that "(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) t)"   would not be t?
2017-12-25T05:19:46Z pjb: good question.
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2017-12-25T05:20:00Z pjb: dmiles: it would depend whether the eval-when is a toplevel form or not.
2017-12-25T05:20:32Z pjb: if it's a toplevel form then it always return T, but since it's a toplevel form, this T is just "compiled-in".
2017-12-25T05:22:34Z dmiles: ok so when inside a defun its compiled-in as t   (since it contains :execute) i can get rid of eval-when wrapper?
2017-12-25T05:22:45Z pjb: well, no, it's not exact.
2017-12-25T05:23:02Z pjb: If you compile-file it, as a toplevel form, then it returns nil.
2017-12-25T05:23:02Z dmiles: more like:  ok so when inside a defun its compiled-in as t.  Next since it contains :execute, i can get rid of eval-when wrapper?
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2017-12-25T05:24:02Z dmiles: oh i was reading it as  ?  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (eval-when (:execute) t))
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2017-12-25T05:24:12Z dmiles: oops
2017-12-25T05:24:22Z pjb: yes, but eval-when preserve toplevel-ness.
2017-12-25T05:24:32Z pjb: So the above is equivalent to the body.
2017-12-25T05:26:06Z dmiles: that helps.. thank you
2017-12-25T05:26:10Z pjb: If you compile-file or load the compiled file then a toplevel (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) t) returns t (but as I said, it wouldn't matter);  If you load the source file, then it would return t too.  If it wasn't a toplevel form, then in the first two cases, it would return nil.
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2017-12-25T05:27:38Z dmiles: i'll have to test the:  (defun is-it-t ()  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) t))
2017-12-25T05:28:09Z Bike: at non top level that eval when is just progn
2017-12-25T05:28:59Z dmiles: so that wont be differnt if loaded the file file with #'is-it-t or compiled it?
2017-12-25T05:29:06Z Bike: nope
2017-12-25T05:29:14Z Bike: (defmacro eval-when ((&rest when) &body body) (if (or (member 'eval when) (member ':execute when)) `(progn ,@body) nil)) for non top level
2017-12-25T05:29:43Z pjb: dmiles: https://pastebin.com/nWTQgevn
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2017-12-25T05:33:09Z dmiles: pjb: thank you i kept putting off writting that thiny
2017-12-25T05:33:29Z dmiles: thingy .. though it answers all my questions :P
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2017-12-25T06:41:14Z cryptomarauder: merry christmas everybody
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2017-12-25T06:43:00Z Zhivago: Is that cultural appropriation?
2017-12-25T06:43:12Z cryptomarauder: I don't think that far into it
2017-12-25T06:43:34Z Zhivago: I'll put it down with a side order of white privilege.
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2017-12-25T06:44:35Z JuanDaugherty: fist up festivus!
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2017-12-25T06:45:49Z JuanDaugherty: 'cultural appropriation' is when you hijack somebody else's
2017-12-25T06:46:22Z JuanDaugherty: usually after taking their land and stuff
2017-12-25T06:47:34Z JuanDaugherty: impose your own absurd belief system, etc
2017-12-25T06:48:24Z Zhivago: Pretty sure Christmas qualifies, then.
2017-12-25T06:50:38Z beach: Is it possible to implement the #= and ## reader macros portably?  For standard objects, it is possible to use the MOP to traverse them, but what about structs?
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2017-12-25T06:54:21Z Zhivago: Why do you need traversal for #= and #=#?
2017-12-25T06:54:51Z Zhivago: Wouldn't those take effect at the surface of the syntax of the constructing expression, as they are reader macros?
2017-12-25T06:55:28Z cryptomarauder: when you're far from your loved ones, especially your children, you'll not preocupy about priviledge so much in those moments. Rather christmas becomes something that you wish you could enjoy simply because it's an excuse to step out of the drudgery of apathy and disconnect we generally share most days. To me it's a good thing to practice even if you don't consider yourself a religious person. I for one am not religious.
2017-12-25T06:55:29Z cryptomarauder: I just say merry christmas becasue I hope you guys don't have to live far from your loved ones like I do. Just this.
2017-12-25T06:56:07Z beach: Zhivago: Consider #1=#(1 2 #1#). When you build the vector, you have to stick in a temporary object that you then fix up later, once the vector is built.
2017-12-25T06:56:23Z beach: Zhivago: Now, consider the same scenario for a standard object or a struct.
2017-12-25T06:59:53Z beach: I guess the same problem happens when you have to deal with instances of custom subclasses of CLASS.
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2017-12-25T07:01:39Z beach: Zhivago: Do you see the problem?
2017-12-25T07:03:17Z Zhivago: Yep.
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2017-12-25T07:04:11Z beach: I guess for maximum portability, I could write the fixup routine as a generic function, and have the implementation specialize on their own classes.
2017-12-25T07:05:17Z Zhivago: If you can change the evaluation semantics to include proxies it should be straight-forward.
2017-12-25T07:05:43Z beach: That sounds complicated, though.
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2017-12-25T07:07:42Z Zhivago: I'm trying to remember if load-time-value has the same fundamental problem.
2017-12-25T07:08:22Z beach: I can't see why it would.
2017-12-25T07:08:31Z Zhivago: crypto: Fair enough. My recommendation would be to just skip the drudgery bit in the first place.
2017-12-25T07:10:04Z Zhivago: Ah, it has an opt-out clause -- but other than that it looks like it has the same sub-structural issues.
2017-12-25T07:11:02Z beach: I don't see it.
2017-12-25T07:11:48Z Zhivago: It's implementation defined regarding what happens it you evaluate one twice.
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2017-12-25T09:42:36Z ym: beach, you want portable ring buffers?
2017-12-25T09:43:43Z beach: I don't know.  Do I?
2017-12-25T09:43:47Z ym: I do.
2017-12-25T09:44:08Z ym: And I think there should be standard extension for such things.
2017-12-25T09:44:42Z ym: Ring buffers, self-balancing binary trees, etc.
2017-12-25T09:44:57Z ym: They also could be optimized very well.
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2017-12-25T09:45:56Z beach: What do you mean by a "standard extension"?
2017-12-25T09:46:57Z ym: ANSI Common Lisp Standard extension.
2017-12-25T09:47:11Z ym: Evolution.
2017-12-25T09:47:37Z ym: We need more math in standard.
2017-12-25T09:48:06Z shka: we don't
2017-12-25T09:48:19Z ym: Ok, I want.
2017-12-25T09:48:39Z JuanDaugherty: you want haskell
2017-12-25T09:48:41Z shka: what stops you from writing it yourself?
2017-12-25T09:48:46Z beach: ym: I am sorry to hear that.
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2017-12-25T09:49:36Z ym: I don't want haskell.
2017-12-25T09:50:27Z ym: Well, I could just write my own ring buffers, for example.
2017-12-25T09:50:37Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Does Haskell even have a standard?
2017-12-25T09:50:43Z ym: And that's how I can make it by myself.
2017-12-25T09:51:02Z ym: But I can't extend standard myself.
2017-12-25T09:51:04Z shka: ym: excellent idea, you may contribute to cl-data-structures for instance
2017-12-25T09:51:10Z shka: :P
2017-12-25T09:51:11Z JuanDaugherty: beach, it does but not ANSI
2017-12-25T09:51:22Z JuanDaugherty: haskell98, etc
2017-12-25T09:51:26Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Who published the standard?
2017-12-25T09:51:43Z shka: ym: asdf is not standard for instance!
2017-12-25T09:51:47Z shka: neither quicklisp
2017-12-25T09:51:57Z ym: shka, do you see how optimized ring buffers can be implemented on top of existing standard?
2017-12-25T09:52:10Z JuanDaugherty: microsoft apparently
2017-12-25T09:52:11Z shka: but if it is useful, it can become de facto standard
2017-12-25T09:52:15Z shka: ym: why not?
2017-12-25T09:52:40Z shka: i don't see a problem
2017-12-25T09:53:39Z shka: you have vectors, you have bitwise operations/modulo
2017-12-25T09:53:44Z ym: I can see how it can work as sbcl extension, but on top of existing vectors, for example, this won't be nor portable, nor optimized.
2017-12-25T09:54:09Z shka: vectors are porbable
2017-12-25T09:54:13Z shka: *portable
2017-12-25T09:54:20Z ym: #1=#(1 2 #1#) is not.
2017-12-25T09:54:33Z shka: that is supposed to be optimized ring buffer? :P
2017-12-25T09:54:41Z ym: This is ring buffer.
2017-12-25T09:54:53Z Shinmera: No, that's a vector with three elements, the third of which is a vector.
2017-12-25T09:55:48Z ym: Isn't the third is an address of this vector?
2017-12-25T09:55:49Z shka: ym: i don't see why you even need syntax like this for ring buffer
2017-12-25T09:56:04Z Shinmera: There are no addresses in Lisp
2017-12-25T09:56:12Z shka: (make-ring-buffer 1 2) works fine
2017-12-25T09:56:16Z beach: ym: It looks like you completely misunderstood what I was illustrating.
2017-12-25T09:56:17Z shka: and is more readable
2017-12-25T09:56:40Z ym: I'm talking about lower level.
2017-12-25T09:57:04Z ym: Lack of addressing in standard doesn't mean there is no addressing in compilers.
2017-12-25T09:58:07Z beach: ym: In what way is #1=#(1 2 #1#) not portable?
2017-12-25T09:59:34Z shka: ym: more importantly: there is NOTHING that prevents you from writing optimized ring buffers in common lisp
2017-12-25T10:00:23Z ym: Uh, I see, hash-sign is in hyperspec.
2017-12-25T10:00:36Z beach: *sigh*
2017-12-25T10:00:44Z ym: I thought it's kind of sbcl trick.
2017-12-25T10:01:21Z ym: Ok, sorry my dummyness.
2017-12-25T10:02:38Z shka: common lisp has more low level elements in the standard you may expect anyway
2017-12-25T10:06:34Z shka: ym: i think you misunderstood "high level language" idea
2017-12-25T10:08:55Z ym: I think I don't.
2017-12-25T10:09:14Z shka: anyway
2017-12-25T10:09:33Z shka: ym: when you find something in math department that can't be library let us know
2017-12-25T10:10:29Z Shinmera: lack of float infinities is one thing that has bothered me
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2017-12-25T10:15:16Z ym: I got what bothered me. I want lisp machine reimplemented for FPGA board and able to self-modification. In that way I could build "hardware"-optimized ring buffers.
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2017-12-25T10:16:10Z shka: i wonder how that is supposed to look like…
2017-12-25T10:16:12Z ym: There is attempts to port MIT-CADR on modern FPGA-boards.
2017-12-25T10:16:58Z ym: So it's about LispOS.
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2017-12-25T10:17:25Z beach: ym: What would be the point of such a port.
2017-12-25T10:17:36Z beach: It would be way slower than an implementation on stock hardware.
2017-12-25T10:18:04Z ym: What do you mean by "slower"?
2017-12-25T10:18:34Z beach: As in "less fast".  As in slower execution.
2017-12-25T10:19:14Z ym: In real-time on modern development boards in money-cost context, yes.
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2017-12-25T10:20:01Z ym: But having self-modifiable lisp machine is owesome in many ways.
2017-12-25T10:20:19Z FareTower: ym: with two FPGA chips, you could have a duo-processor where one updates the other at a time.
2017-12-25T10:20:54Z FareTower: ym: at the opposite end, you could have the Green Arrays processor.
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2017-12-25T10:21:31Z ym: FareTower, when you have self-modifiable lisp-machine, you could whatever you want.
2017-12-25T10:21:43Z shka: …
2017-12-25T10:22:45Z ym: Or many such machines could be implemented with 9p support and distribute computing power via network for example.
2017-12-25T10:22:52Z ym: Mad idea, I know.
2017-12-25T10:23:00Z FareTower: ym: for extra fun, read my essay "who (p)owns your computer" http://fare.tunes.org/computing/reclaim_your_computer.html
2017-12-25T10:23:57Z ym: Oh, I see you as mad ad me.
2017-12-25T10:24:10Z ym: s/\ ad/\ as/
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2017-12-25T10:24:53Z shka: FareTower: why you site has not RSS feed?
2017-12-25T10:28:02Z FareTower: shka: too modern for me
2017-12-25T10:28:18Z FareTower: my site predates RSS feeds
2017-12-25T10:29:14Z shka: and retrofitting is out of the question?
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2017-12-25T10:33:34Z FareTower: shka: it's just low on the task list
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2017-12-25T10:38:29Z shka: FareTower: fair enough
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2017-12-25T10:45:19Z Shinmera: For those with a raspberry pi, here's a preview build of Portacle: https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/945243615021977600
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2017-12-25T10:52:54Z FareTower: Shinmera, nice
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2017-12-25T11:36:47Z shka: gosh, i am so glad that flexichain is available
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2017-12-25T11:41:13Z beach: Glad you like it.
2017-12-25T11:46:08Z shka: i actually starting to write my own implementation of double ended queue before i reminded myself that there is very decent implementation just lying around
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2017-12-25T12:21:54Z beach: It is quite well tested, yes.
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2017-12-25T12:23:12Z shka: it saves time
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2017-12-25T12:29:24Z loke: shka: If you need a red-black tree, watch out though. Out of the ones I tried (3 different ones?) none of them were correct.
2017-12-25T12:29:49Z loke: I ported one myself from a reference implementation, and for the longest time it too had a bug (typo on my part), but now I think it's stable.
2017-12-25T12:30:01Z loke: It's currently not on QL though :-(
2017-12-25T12:30:09Z shka: well, perhaps i should add into cl-ds?
2017-12-25T12:31:08Z TMA: red-black trees are notorious for being easy to get wrong, especially when deletion is involved
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2017-12-25T12:33:49Z loke: TMA: True. I was runnin gbroken implementations for months without really noticing the issue, other than random errors at times that I attributed to a broken red-black implementation. Finally, I added code to record every single addition and removal to the tree and stored it in a log so that I could replay it to prove there was a problem.
2017-12-25T12:34:03Z loke: Then run for days until I had a way to reproduce.
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2017-12-25T12:34:58Z loke: I then utterly failed to fix it, because I didn't understand the implementation. So, I deicded to port my own, it worked... Until it didn't. Rinse and repeat and this time I was abel to fix the bug, which was a simple transcription error.
2017-12-25T12:35:22Z loke: But now it's run for well over a year without a single problem, on a heavily modified tree, so I think it works.
2017-12-25T12:35:59Z loke: Here's my implementation by the way: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp
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2017-12-25T12:36:35Z loke: If anyone wants to adapt it into their own library so it can make its way to QL, I'd be pleased.
2017-12-25T12:36:50Z loke: The one in cl-containers is broken by the way. I have a test case to prove it.
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2017-12-25T12:37:39Z makomo: when you redefine a function that was previously loaded using Quicklisp in SLIME, how does it know which package it came from (and which definition to update) if you're not in that particular package (i.e. the current package is CL-USER)?
2017-12-25T12:38:18Z beach: makomo: It looks at (in-package ...) at the beginning of the file.
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2017-12-25T12:38:23Z makomo: i guess it keeps track of which file the eval came from?
2017-12-25T12:38:23Z loke: makomo: SBCL tracks where a function was defined, and SLIME (SWANK, actually) uses that information for code navigation.
2017-12-25T12:38:30Z makomo: ahh
2017-12-25T12:39:01Z makomo: loke: hm yeah, but how does it know i don't want to maybe make a new function with the same name but in a different package
2017-12-25T12:39:05Z loke: I believe Beach has a much better way to handle this in second climacs.
2017-12-25T12:39:17Z TMA: My RB-tree was ok until deletion, after spending a whole day debugging that I have made an AVL tree instead in about an hour
2017-12-25T12:39:30Z beach: loke: Except that I haven't finished it yet.
2017-12-25T12:39:32Z makomo: what beach seems to make the most sense
2017-12-25T12:39:34Z makomo: said*
2017-12-25T12:39:44Z loke: beach: true, but we're academics here, aren't we?
2017-12-25T12:39:52Z loke: (at least I like to pretend I am)
2017-12-25T12:39:56Z beach: Sure, that's fine.
2017-12-25T12:41:05Z loke: shka: what is cl-ds?
2017-12-25T12:44:00Z loke: TMA: I'd like mine to become available on QL. It's currently part of my own container library, but I'm considering extracting it out into its own library.
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2017-12-25T12:49:14Z shka: loke: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
2017-12-25T12:49:32Z shka: my fullish attempt at data structure package
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2017-12-25T12:54:58Z loke: shka: Is it on QL?
2017-12-25T12:55:04Z shka: not yet
2017-12-25T12:55:23Z loke: shka: I'd love to see my red-black implementation on there.
2017-12-25T12:55:40Z shka: i had to figure out iteration method and algorithm interface
2017-12-25T12:55:47Z loke: I don't think the world need my container library. The red-black tree is the only newish part of it anyway
2017-12-25T12:55:53Z shka: but i think that i nailed it
2017-12-25T12:56:45Z loke: shka: If you look at the code from line 302 and below, there is the code that adapts it for my container library. That's the only code you'd need to rewrite:
2017-12-25T12:56:46Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp#L302
2017-12-25T12:57:23Z shka: ok
2017-12-25T12:58:11Z shka: anyway, I wanted something that allow me to write code with R dplyr style group-by
2017-12-25T12:58:20Z shka: and all that jazz
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2017-12-25T12:59:02Z shka: as a result i spent awful lot of time on interface design
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2017-12-25T13:45:08Z dmiles: oh crud this " (defmacro incf (place &optional (delta-form 1)) `(setf ,place (+ ,place ,delta-form)))"   is broken in   "(incf (aref *vector* (incf *special*))) " ?
2017-12-25T13:47:50Z beach: dmiles: I think I told you that.
2017-12-25T13:48:06Z beach: You are evaluating the subforms of the place twice.
2017-12-25T13:48:23Z shka: dmiles: once-only my friend!
2017-12-25T13:50:05Z dmiles: *nod* i just noticed it was laying arround .. i decided to search for such mistakes
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2017-12-25T15:36:03Z _death: no, once-only is not the answer there..
2017-12-25T15:36:31Z _death: for incf you can just use define-modify-macro, but in general you want get-setf-expansion
2017-12-25T15:37:51Z beach: I keep forgetting about DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO.
2017-12-25T15:38:21Z dmiles: heh i was just griping to myself no one seems to make a define-modify-macro
2017-12-25T15:38:35Z dmiles: (they do though.. but often dont trust it)
2017-12-25T15:39:13Z dmiles: (will use it for incf/decf but if it gets complicated they reather write it out all by hand)
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2017-12-25T15:40:03Z _death: there's also defsetf/define-setf-expander, which are used even less
2017-12-25T15:42:12Z dmiles: *nod* i sorta even lumped define-setf-expander into the underutilized category but hadnt get to straight defsetfs
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2017-12-25T15:43:21Z dmiles: hadnt gotten to teh defsetfs.. the defsetfs probly make the best of setf expanders
2017-12-25T15:44:05Z pfdietz: As I recall, ansi-tests has tests that things like INCF don't evaluate things more than once, and also in the right order.
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2017-12-25T15:48:29Z dmiles: looking at some REF POP etc they do start out as if somone macroexpand-1 on define-modify-macro then finish it out
2017-12-25T15:53:28Z dmiles: REF/REMF
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2017-12-25T17:27:57Z asarch: 1) Can you define a function inside the body of a function? 2) If yes, how? 3) Can you return a function a la JavaScript: function point() {... return () => {}};?
2017-12-25T17:28:23Z beach: clhs flet
2017-12-25T17:28:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2017-12-25T17:28:26Z beach: clhs labels
2017-12-25T17:28:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2017-12-25T17:29:38Z beach: asarch: (defun ff (x) (flet ((gg (y) (+ x y))) #'gg))
2017-12-25T17:30:39Z beach: asarch: (funcall (ff 10) 20) => 30
2017-12-25T17:31:31Z beach: Since I don't know JavaScript, I don't know whether this is an answer to question number 3.
2017-12-25T17:31:52Z |3b|: you can also use LAMBDA to create a function without naming it
2017-12-25T17:31:59Z Shinmera: 3 is just (defun point () (lambda ()))
2017-12-25T17:33:35Z beach: That looks kind of useless.
2017-12-25T17:36:13Z beach: asarch: Did you faint?
2017-12-25T17:43:00Z beach: asarch: It is customary to provide some kind of feedback, indicating at least that you received the message, and even better to tell us whether you understood it.
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2017-12-25T18:14:26Z pjb: beach: let's assume overdose of tequila. (for asarch).
2017-12-25T18:15:36Z beach: Sure, that could be.
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2017-12-25T18:17:23Z Th30n: Hello and merry Christmas everyone!
2017-12-25T18:17:42Z beach: Hello Th30n.  Same to you.
2017-12-25T18:18:14Z Th30n: I've come to bring presents... erm I mean, ask questions with lisp related problems :)
2017-12-25T18:19:59Z Th30n: For anyone testing qt, qt-libs and qtools on Windows. Did smoke generation somehow break? It appears that calls for QString related stuff aren't wrapped. All calls to QT API which requires coercion from lisp string to qstring fail.
2017-12-25T18:20:18Z Th30n: This is probably a "present" for Shinmera :(
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2017-12-25T19:02:42Z peterppp: stupid question: how do I make the regexp package available?
2017-12-25T19:02:48Z peterppp: in clisp
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2017-12-25T19:06:30Z beach: (ql:quickload "cl-ppcre") I would assume
2017-12-25T19:06:52Z beach: Unless you mean some other system for handling regular expressions.
2017-12-25T19:07:32Z peterppp: beach, https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/regexp-mod.html
2017-12-25T19:07:49Z peterppp: this page seems to suggest that there's a built in one
2017-12-25T19:07:51Z _death: clisp also has one built in.. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/impnotes/regexp-mod.html
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2017-12-25T19:07:58Z peterppp: I don't know?
2017-12-25T19:08:08Z peterppp: but I guess I'll be using cl-ppcre then
2017-12-25T19:08:20Z _death: hmm you just pasted that link.. so what's the trouble
2017-12-25T19:08:20Z beach: peterppp: Why would you use an implementation-specific one, when you can use a portable one?
2017-12-25T19:08:36Z _death: try (require "REGEXP")
2017-12-25T19:09:21Z pjb: peterppp: in clisp, you compile it with the regex module, and the REGEXP pacakge is always available. No need for require.
2017-12-25T19:09:41Z peterppp: in my case tying it to a platform seems preferable to using additional libraries
2017-12-25T19:09:52Z beach: Wow.
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2017-12-25T19:10:12Z peterppp: hmm but using (regexp:match ...) fails
2017-12-25T19:11:12Z pjb: use clisp --version to see if the C Module regexp is included.
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2017-12-25T19:13:49Z peterppp: pjb, it says yes
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2017-12-25T19:14:15Z pjb: (regexp:match "foo" "bar foo baz") --> #S(REGEXP:MATCH :START 4 :END 7)
2017-12-25T19:14:31Z peterppp: ehem
2017-12-25T19:14:45Z peterppp: on gnu clisp it works, but I normally use sbcl
2017-12-25T19:14:54Z pjb: You asked about clisp.
2017-12-25T19:14:58Z peterppp: ah
2017-12-25T19:15:02Z beach: I am confused.
2017-12-25T19:15:03Z peterppp: my bad...
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2017-12-25T19:15:26Z peterppp: I didn't know that 'clisp' refers to the gnu lisp implementation as is the case apparently?
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2017-12-25T19:15:44Z peterppp: I'm bloody new to lisp, sorry
2017-12-25T19:15:50Z pjb: Common Lisp is COMMON-LISP or CL.
2017-12-25T19:15:54Z peterppp: ahh
2017-12-25T19:16:05Z peterppp: just started out reading paul graham's book the other day
2017-12-25T19:16:15Z pjb: cl-ppcre as indicated above is the common library for most implementations.
2017-12-25T19:16:21Z pjb: Paul Graham used clisp.
2017-12-25T19:16:30Z peterppp: aha
2017-12-25T19:17:33Z |3b|: "clisp" refers to /a/ gnu CL implementation, they have more than one :)
2017-12-25T19:17:39Z pjb: Then he got multi-millionnaire, so he started to write his own lisp named arc, and implemented ycombinator.com with it, and is in the way of becoming billionaire by helping startups.
2017-12-25T19:18:06Z pjb: Yes, there's also gcl, another GNU Common Lisp implementation (eventually).
2017-12-25T19:19:00Z _death: maybe one day he'll go broke and return to writing Lisp books ;)
2017-12-25T19:19:57Z p_l: _death: not sure if good idea, though ;)
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2017-12-25T19:20:11Z p_l: his approach was very opinionated and idiosyncratic, and it shows in Arc :)
2017-12-25T19:20:22Z _death: p_l: so what? I like both his books
2017-12-25T19:20:44Z p_l: Haven't read ANSI CL, towards which most of the complaints are given.
2017-12-25T19:20:57Z p_l: On Lisp is interesting but in the end I never had time nor need for it
2017-12-25T19:21:15Z peterppp: in what way is it idiosyncratic?
2017-12-25T19:21:28Z peterppp: just curious
2017-12-25T19:21:38Z _death: peterppp: https://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
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2017-12-25T19:23:57Z peterppp: _death, thanks! it'll be great to have that available while I go through the book
2017-12-25T19:25:19Z _death: peterppp: have fun.. ACL was my first Lisp book as well.. do all the exercises, preferably in emacs with slime
2017-12-25T19:25:50Z peterppp: _death, I'm doing them with emacs but have yet to use slime
2017-12-25T19:26:00Z peterppp: gonna do that now
2017-12-25T19:26:13Z _death: peterppp: great :)
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2017-12-25T19:33:32Z pfdietz: The Common Lisp spec is quite readable as well.
2017-12-25T19:36:09Z alecigne: Is there some kind of "C for Lisp programmers" book or ressource out there? Maybe knowing Common Lisp is enough to dive in C
2017-12-25T19:37:16Z Bike: i suppose it might help you get a clearer idea of C's scoping, which is badly explained by the average tutorial
2017-12-25T19:37:21Z Bike: but otherwise there aren't a lot of similarities
2017-12-25T19:41:16Z alecigne: Bike: so in your opinion there is no good way to capitalize on my CL knowledge to learn it more easily, the "programming" knowledge by itself is enough
2017-12-25T19:42:27Z Bike: just understanding the basics of programming, you know, the machine does what you tell it too but in a really specific way, what syntax is, stuff like that, is most of what you need to learn a programming language, and passed that the returns diminish pretty fast, imo
2017-12-25T19:42:27Z beach: alecigne: The programming style is completely different, unless you do what I do if I have to program applications in C, namely do everything with pointers and stick the Boehm GC in your application.
2017-12-25T19:42:38Z Bike: what you tell it to*
2017-12-25T19:42:56Z _death: best to learn each language on its own terms.. after you do that, you can move to comparisons and critique
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2017-12-25T19:44:01Z alecigne: Thank you
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2017-12-25T19:58:49Z Shinmera: Th30n: Nothing has changed about it on Windows in recent weeks, so I wouldn't know about it breaking either.
2017-12-25T19:58:59Z Shinmera: Th30n: The smoke bindings in particular have not changed at all in forever.
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2017-12-25T20:03:15Z Th30n: Shinmera: Thanks for the reply. Yes I was going through that, it's rather weird.
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2017-12-25T20:06:16Z Th30n: Shinmera: Basically the problem is, if I try to do to something like (q+:make-qstring "bla") it fails to compile, complains about the function missing. Same thing with (q+:qstring-from-utf-8 "blah"). On the other hand (q+:qfiledialog-get-open-file-name window "blah") crashes when trying to marshal the string to qstring. SBCL reports an error - exception code 0xE06D7363, which signifies that an exception is thrown in C++ code.
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2017-12-25T20:13:19Z Shinmera: Th30n: The Qstring methods are not exported on purpose -- that hasn't changed.
2017-12-25T20:13:30Z Shinmera: However, strings should be properly converted to and fro.
2017-12-25T20:13:36Z Shinmera: automatically, that is
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2017-12-25T20:14:31Z Shinmera: As for the error, that's outside my realm and a CommonQt issue rather than a Qtools one
2017-12-25T20:14:58Z Shinmera: How old is your SBCL, out of curiosity?
2017-12-25T20:15:32Z Th30n: Shinmera: auto conversion used to work. Perhaps it may even be related to cffi, because the call does end up in the C function which returns a QString.
2017-12-25T20:15:44Z Th30n: SBCL is 1.4.2
2017-12-25T20:15:57Z Th30n: (things work as expected on Linux)
2017-12-25T20:16:01Z Shinmera: Hunh. I can't get out of bed to confirm this right now.
2017-12-25T20:16:28Z Th30n: Shinmera: Yeah, no problem, don't bother. It's Christmas, you deserve at least some break :)
2017-12-25T20:17:04Z Shinmera: But if you can open an issue ticket with a minimal snippet to reproduce on https://github.com/commonqt/commonqt/issues I can see what I can do myself (probably not much) or if I can bother Stas about it.
2017-12-25T20:17:42Z Th30n: Ok
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2017-12-25T20:21:26Z Shinmera: Thanks
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2017-12-25T20:24:44Z asarch: Sorry, I ran out of power
2017-12-25T20:24:56Z asarch: Thank you beach
2017-12-25T20:25:03Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-25T20:25:28Z asarch: I usually don't drink Tequila.
2017-12-25T20:25:48Z asarch: Mezcal is better from the place I am (Oaxaca, México)
2017-12-25T20:26:43Z antoszka: I'd love some good Mezcal. Any export brands you can recommend?
2017-12-25T20:27:19Z asarch: BTW, merry christmas to all of you o/
2017-12-25T20:27:51Z asarch: Brand?! I would like to suggest a trip to Santiago Matatlán, Oaxaca, México
2017-12-25T20:28:04Z asarch: The capital of Mezcal in the world
2017-12-25T20:28:44Z asarch: https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=santiago+matatlan&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYr_mSgKbYAhXL54MKHZFJAPYQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=599
2017-12-25T20:31:20Z antoszka: Well, I'd love a trip, but won't be able to affort one anytime soon. I love the cuisine too (as much as I know it). Really a place I want to visit. Let's take this off channel to #lispcafe.
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2017-12-25T20:53:54Z asarch: Yeah! Cheers guys o/
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2017-12-25T21:40:19Z makomo: merry christmas everyone from me too :-)
2017-12-25T21:42:32Z pjb: stylewarning: wrong.  You have to do something like: (let ((lisp-channel (find "#lisp" (channels *connection*) :key (function name))))  (mapc (lambda (user) (privmsg *connection* lisp-channel (format t "Merry Christmas ~A!" (name user)))) (users lisp-channel)))
2017-12-25T21:43:17Z pjb: with (ql:quicklisp :cl-irc) (use-package :cl-irc) and establishing a (defparameter *connection* (connect :nickname "xmasgreater" :server "irc.freenode.org"))
2017-12-25T21:43:22Z stylewarning: Do you have a GPL library for me to run your code with, with a package name that’s ~4,000 characters long
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2017-12-25T21:44:01Z pjb: stylewarning: check https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/small-cl-pgms/botihn/ or https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/small-cl-pgms/botil
2017-12-25T21:44:23Z stylewarning: I knew it!
2017-12-25T21:45:23Z Shinmera: pjb: With Maiden it would be something like (loop with c = (find-channel "#lisp" (consumer "freenode" *core*)) for u in (users c) do (reply c "~a: Merry Christmas!" (username u)))
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2017-12-25T22:00:22Z aeth: Use abstractions! It should be something like this: (do-users (user (users freenode "#lisp")) (message-user user "Merry Christmas!"))
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2017-12-25T22:10:24Z _death: maybe lp:pmapc..
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2017-12-25T23:21:14Z resttime: Is there a simple virtual machine with its own "byte code" written in Common Lisp out there?
2017-12-25T23:21:44Z resttime: I'm hoping to read some source code to understand stuff
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2017-12-25T23:50:46Z Bike: resttime: how about https://github.com/kingcons/cl-6502/blob/master/src/opcodes.lisp
2017-12-25T23:51:01Z aeth: Your question made me realise just how hard it is searching for "Lisp" and "machine" together.
2017-12-25T23:53:03Z aeth: "emulator" is a much better word.
2017-12-25T23:53:08Z aeth: Here's the other one I'm aware of. http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/12/chip8-cpu/
2017-12-25T23:55:09Z resttime: Interesting, I'll check them out thanks.
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2017-12-26T00:02:27Z pjb: resttime: cf. nasium-lse.
2017-12-26T00:02:42Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/nasium-lse/nasium-lse
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2017-12-26T00:15:59Z resttime: Whoa the readme says another programming language too, I wonder how many transpilers there are
2017-12-26T00:16:09Z resttime: I know that's theres one for Python too
2017-12-26T00:16:58Z resttime: Huh there's one for C too https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
2017-12-26T00:18:58Z resttime: Hahaha, figures there'd be one for JS http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
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2017-12-26T00:34:39Z marutk: is it possible to static content and websockets from single server?  I tried https://github.com/fukamachi/clack with Hunchentoot
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2017-12-26T01:11:01Z resttime: The answer to marutk's question is probably yes I think. Create a middleware which redirects a URL to static content and another middleware to the websockets
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2017-12-26T02:51:03Z asarch: SLIME, stable or the bleeding edge version?
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2017-12-26T03:19:26Z Xach_: asarch: there is now only stable
2017-12-26T03:19:39Z Xach_: i know this to be true
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2017-12-26T03:28:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-26T03:33:43Z asarch: Thank you Xach_
2017-12-26T03:33:49Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-26T03:34:03Z asarch: I found this at MELPA's: To use the stable package repository instead of the default “bleeding-edge” repository, use this instead of "melpa":
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2017-12-26T03:39:24Z whoman: the suspense is
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2017-12-26T03:44:45Z asarch: http://melpa.org/#/getting-started
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2017-12-26T04:19:50Z u0_a166: resttime : you wanted to know about lisp bytecode design? https://github.com/HarryR/secdpy/blob/master/README.md https://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~you/courses/325/Mynotes/Fun/SECD-slides.html
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2017-12-26T04:24:02Z u0_a166: i believe there are alternatives to the SECD abstract machine, and needs extentions to be practical, but some interpreters based on it
2017-12-26T04:36:45Z resttime: Neat, I'll definitely check it out. This stuff is pretty much all new to me
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2017-12-26T06:34:55Z oleo: morning
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2017-12-26T07:14:21Z beach: Hello oleo.
2017-12-26T07:16:45Z beach: minion: memo for KZiemian: One item for CLUS.  In the description of the functions for setting macro character or dispatch macro character, the only place to figure out the signature of the function seems to be in the example.  It wouldn't hurt to state that signature explicitly.
2017-12-26T07:16:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell KZiemian when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-12-26T08:10:44Z Shinmera: resttime: Doesn't Clisp implement a bytecode interpreter? Though I don't think t hat'll qualify as simple.
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2017-12-26T08:12:42Z loke did some benchmarks of cl-js some time ago (last year?). For microbenchmarks, it was faster than the latest version (at the time) of V8
2017-12-26T08:12:55Z Shinmera: aeth: The abstractions present in Maiden are sufficient. Your suggested ones don't even make sense anyway.
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2017-12-26T11:12:45Z loke: Man, that spamming session.
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2017-12-26T11:21:49Z flip214: Hi, using the snippet in http://lpaste.net/8485713744523952128 gives a pathname of #P"" on current SBCL. Is that as expected, or a recent change because of ASDF or so?
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2017-12-26T13:35:05Z Xach_: flip214: hello
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2017-12-26T13:35:23Z Xach_: flip214: i usually use *compile-file-truename* there. i'm not sure it is the critical difference though.
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2017-12-26T13:38:59Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/issues/22
2017-12-26T13:39:13Z dim: another ASDF/SBCL issue, around Postmodern again
2017-12-26T13:39:38Z dim: well simple-date-postgres-glue to be accurate
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2017-12-26T14:29:11Z Xach_: dim: fixed in next ql update
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2017-12-26T14:45:56Z beach: What standard containers would be reasonable for an application programmer to invent a reader syntax for?  Clearly lists, arrays, standard objects, and hash-tables are reasonable.  Structs too, but I don't know how to do those portably.  Anything else?  I can't see anyone trying to invent a syntax for packages, for example.
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2017-12-26T14:51:37Z Zhivago: I think that javascript/json hit on the two most important cases -- maps of symbols to values, and contiguous maps of counts from zero to values, and Steele on the third, less important case of maps from arbitrary object to arbitrary object with his xapping syntax. It would be nice to have more consistent syntax using those forms for the various different implementations of mappings in CL.
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2017-12-26T14:52:09Z Zhivago: Given that, everyone seems reasonably happy to build syntaxes for things like packages on top.
2017-12-26T14:53:20Z Zhivago: But modern lisp isn't for reasonable people, so that line of reasoning probably won't work out too well.
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2017-12-26T14:56:34Z beach: So, I'm not planning to invent any input syntax.  But I need to know what kinds of objects to traverse to look for instances of #n# after reading some expression.  I came up with the list that I wrote, and I am wondering whether any other standard containers could apply.  Most application-specific stuff would be in the form of standard-objects, and I can handle those.
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2017-12-26T14:57:05Z jmercouris: can anyone tell me about what it is like to run your own quicklisp server?
2017-12-26T14:57:26Z Xach_: jmercouris: sure! you put up a bunch of .tgz files and some text-based indexes.
2017-12-26T14:57:28Z jmercouris: before this turns into an x-y problem, I was thinking of offering a set of trusted systems/packages for my users via running a quicklisp server for nEXT
2017-12-26T14:57:44Z Xach_: jmercouris: borodust does that for his project via the "quickdist" software.
2017-12-26T14:57:45Z jmercouris: Xach_: So I just need to host these in some www on some web server and it just works?
2017-12-26T14:58:05Z Xach_: jmercouris: yes, the trick is to get the right contents of the text-based index files, which is unfortunately not documented.
2017-12-26T14:58:20Z jmercouris: Xach_: These index files have to be crafted by hand?
2017-12-26T14:58:32Z Xach_: jmercouris: no, but they have to have the correct contents.
2017-12-26T14:58:50Z jmercouris: Xach_: let me take a quick look at quickdist and see if I understand it
2017-12-26T14:59:10Z jmercouris: Is it possible to have two sources for quicklisp at the same time?
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2017-12-26T14:59:41Z jmercouris: Can someone install lets say something available on official quicklisp repository and then on that same image install something from another repository?
2017-12-26T14:59:43Z Xach_: jmercouris: you can have any number of "dists". the one i provide is named "quicklisp". you can add more than one as long as it is named something else.
2017-12-26T14:59:55Z Zhivago: beach: Predicting which kinds of objects might use that syntax seems fraught with exciting possibilities for the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
2017-12-26T15:00:17Z jmercouris: Xach_: Okay, very cool, this is probably the mechanism I will use then for my "package manager"
2017-12-26T15:00:29Z Xach_: jmercouris: when you load a project named "foo", and more than one dist provides it, there is a score system to decide which dist "wins"
2017-12-26T15:00:45Z jmercouris: Is the software you are talking about: https://github.com/orivej/quickdist?
2017-12-26T15:00:51Z beach: Zhivago: Well, I did turn the traversal into a generic function, so anyone who has specific needs can supply a method.  I just want to provide as many cases as I can.
2017-12-26T15:00:57Z Xach_: it is automatically set to the most recently installed dist, but the score can be changed
2017-12-26T15:01:04Z Xach_: jmercouris: I think that is what borodust uses.
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2017-12-26T15:01:17Z jmercouris: Okay, very cool, thank you!
2017-12-26T15:01:27Z jmercouris: I'm glad to know that this is possible
2017-12-26T15:01:38Z Xach_: jmercouris: I use a program called "quicklisp-controller", but it is pretty specific to a number of manual processes I use, so I don't know if it would be good to use directly. it might be good for learning about how things work.
2017-12-26T15:01:44Z jmercouris: It's something I'll be doing in the coming months, I'm sure I'll have more questions, perhaps I can document the index files when I do that
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2017-12-26T15:02:31Z jmercouris: Xach_: I assume you are referring to this: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-controller?
2017-12-26T15:02:45Z Xach_: jmercouris: that's right.
2017-12-26T15:03:43Z pjb: beach: AFAIK, any kind of object can contain #n# in their serialization; standard are lists, vectors and structures (compound objects), but user objects may also have them.  Sometimes, in surprising places.
2017-12-26T15:04:08Z jmercouris: Xach_: Thank you!
2017-12-26T15:04:37Z pjb: beach: eg. one could expect to find them in pathname (I don't think that it's specified that make-pathname copies strings for then components, even if it's probably what it does).
2017-12-26T15:04:40Z beach: pjb: Yes, but like I said, I handle most user object, because I handle STANDARD-OBJECTs.  All I care about now are other standard containers.
2017-12-26T15:05:02Z pjb: hash-table don't have standard serialization format, so we're cool with them.
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2017-12-26T15:05:28Z beach: But someone could very well write a reader macro for a hash table, so I include those.
2017-12-26T15:05:45Z beach: But pathname is a good hint.  I'll look into that.
2017-12-26T15:06:01Z pjb: but pathnames are mostly opaque.
2017-12-26T15:06:19Z beach: If so, I wouldn't know how to traverse one.
2017-12-26T15:06:37Z beach: I don't have pathnames fresh in memory.
2017-12-26T15:06:38Z pjb: Well, there are the functions like pathname-directory pathname-name etc.
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2017-12-26T15:07:05Z pjb: #.(make-pathname :name #1# :directory '(:absolute #2# "foo" #4#))
2017-12-26T15:07:38Z pjb: I don't think that it's expected that #n# work with user defined reader macros and #.
2017-12-26T15:07:43Z beach: I don't think that is valid.  the #. would define a top-level READ.
2017-12-26T15:07:45Z beach: Right.
2017-12-26T15:08:04Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2017-12-26T16:40:17Z jmercouris: What do you guys think of this secondary icon for next: https://imgur.com/a/sXM6M as compared to the original icon: https://next-browser.github.io/assets/icon_512x512.png
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2017-12-26T18:34:33Z flip214: grr, what's the best way to get all entries of a directory?
2017-12-26T18:35:00Z flip214: (DIRECTORY "*") vs. (DIRECTORY "*.*") vs. (DIRECTORY "*.*.*") all return different things...
2017-12-26T18:35:09Z flip214: is there some trivial library in QL?
2017-12-26T18:35:20Z pfdietz: DIRECTORY on a pathname ending in a wildcard, although I don't know that gives subdirectories.
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2017-12-26T18:36:00Z pfdietz: Not well specified in the spec, as I recall.
2017-12-26T18:36:08Z beach: flip214: It's notoriously implementation specific.
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2017-12-26T18:36:18Z beach: There might be something in IOLIB
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2017-12-26T18:39:21Z shka: generic function call in sbcl is less expensive then i would expect
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2017-12-26T18:40:11Z shka: I have protocol for writing aggregation functions in place
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2017-12-26T18:41:19Z beach: And way less expensive if you are using my technique.
2017-12-26T18:42:02Z shka: it consist of a handful generic functions (like make-state) that are called all over again and it turns out whole thing is just around 2.5 times slower then simple reduce
2017-12-26T18:42:12Z shka: beach: i wish i could do that :P
2017-12-26T18:42:15Z flip214: shka: also this might be interesting:  https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function
2017-12-26T18:42:24Z shka: flip214: won't work for me
2017-12-26T18:42:45Z shka: protocol is designed to be extendable
2017-12-26T18:42:54Z flip214: well, bad luck   ;)    if I knew more about your constraints I might be able to offer better ideas
2017-12-26T18:43:31Z shka: i could explain basic problem
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2017-12-26T18:44:51Z shka: it all started with dplyr library for R…
2017-12-26T18:44:57Z shka: ;-)
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2017-12-26T18:48:04Z flip214: thanks  ;)
2017-12-26T18:48:18Z shka: no, really
2017-12-26T18:48:25Z flip214: "I CAN EXPLAIN!!!"  sounds a bit panic-stricken, doesn't it??
2017-12-26T18:48:38Z shka: hehe, no
2017-12-26T18:48:44Z shka: anyway
2017-12-26T18:48:53Z flip214: shka: you can try, but I don't have much time left before having to fetch my loved one.
2017-12-26T18:49:01Z beach: shka: In fact, you could.  Generic functions with the SICL-style dispatch can coexist with native standard generic functions.  But it would take some work on your part. :)
2017-12-26T18:49:38Z shka: in dplyr you can call group-by, and call aggregation on the result to get aggregation for each group
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2017-12-26T18:50:17Z shka: it also can translate sequence of calls into SQL
2017-12-26T18:51:44Z shka: but ofc, because of R is bullshit, whole thing is not extendable
2017-12-26T18:52:23Z shka: so if you want do something that was not already implemented, you are screwed
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2017-12-26T18:54:35Z shka: luckly, i managed to figure out how to do the same without insane memory usage
2017-12-26T18:55:08Z pjb: flip214: cl-fad must have something.
2017-12-26T18:55:36Z shka: beach: heh, i have a lot to do already
2017-12-26T18:55:50Z beach: shka: Welcome to the club.
2017-12-26T18:56:20Z shka: thank you, it is nice to be recognized by the Senior Member of The Club
2017-12-26T18:56:31Z beach: Moi?
2017-12-26T18:56:34Z beach: Nah!
2017-12-26T18:56:51Z beach: Is that possible?
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2017-12-26T18:58:20Z shka: dunno, i thought you are right there with Fare
2017-12-26T18:59:07Z beach: Maybe.  I never think of it.  He is still "Em" to me ("younger sibling" in Vietnamese).
2017-12-26T18:59:11Z flip214: pjb: thanks, looking
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2017-12-26T19:00:13Z flip214: pjb: ah, even WALK-DIRECTORY. excellent!
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2017-12-26T19:42:43Z dim: uiop has also a good api for files/dirs
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2017-12-26T19:44:14Z dim: uiop:directory-files and uiop:collect-sub*directories e.g.
2017-12-26T19:44:36Z dim: I don't like that cl-fad API mostly don't deal with pathnames
2017-12-26T19:44:44Z dim: it makes it really wierd to use IME
2017-12-26T19:44:53Z dim: so I prefer and advice for uiop instead
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2017-12-26T20:38:01Z jasom: uiop makes one decision I really don't like, and that's parsing ".." as :back vs :up in unix namestrings
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2017-12-26T21:09:29Z jmercouris: jasom: why would it do that? do the authors provide any rationale?
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2017-12-26T21:45:17Z jasom: jmercouris: simplicity
2017-12-26T21:45:47Z jasom: jmercouris: different implementations handle symlinks very differently, so uiop, to a certain degree, gives up on portably handling symlinks
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2017-12-26T21:48:29Z jasom: jmercouris: it would be a lot of code to get it right portably and ASDF doesn't rely on :back/:up working differently so it's out of scope to add that much complexity
2017-12-26T21:48:55Z jasom: this is by memory, I can find the actual discussion if you want the definitive answer
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2017-12-26T21:53:18Z jmercouris: Nah, I don't need exact details, I'm not going to make a PR or anything, I was just curious if there was some good reasoning behind it
2017-12-26T21:53:23Z jmercouris: Thanks for the explanation
2017-12-26T21:54:05Z jmercouris: I wish that CL paths weren't so strange, I understand their design and historical significance, but maybe the implementation can be extended with a new way to make and handle paths
2017-12-26T21:54:28Z jmercouris: Of course we can always write a library to do this, so it doesn't truly matter, but yeah
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2017-12-26T22:24:43Z aeth: Shinmera: The advantage of a custom do-foo is that even though it looks like the "for foo in bar" idiom that can be duplicated manually or with loop, it can be made to be non-consing without changing the API because it's a macro. Basically, foo could be iterated over more efficiently. In this case a loop with "in (users ...)" is different than "(do-users (user (users ...)) ...)"
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2017-12-26T22:26:35Z aeth: Initially, they would probably be essentially identical, but because do-users is a custom macro that doesn't have to follow the loop semantics, do-users could be rewritten to essentially lie about calling users (which would cons a list) and instead iterate in a way that doesn't allocate a user list.
2017-12-26T22:27:13Z aeth: There might be no reason to work with a list at all.
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2017-12-26T22:27:26Z aeth: For IRC, probably overkill. For other things, it could be very useful to have this extra layer of abstraction.
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2017-12-26T22:31:00Z aeth: I see no issue with essentially lying about calling an accessor if the API is identical and the macro can handle things more efficiently. setf sort of does this. The foo in the setter (setf (foo 42) 3) has the same API as the getter (foo 42) but doesn't have to. So setf macro is already doing this sort of lie, in the standard language.
2017-12-26T22:35:21Z aeth: Well, what I mean is: setf is a macro, and (setf (foo 42) 3) doesn't evaluate "(foo 42)" and #'(setf foo) doesn't even have to have the same API as #'foo
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2017-12-26T23:47:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Recently, I've been experimenting with logical pathnames, and I find that they are a really nice way of dealing with paths
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2017-12-26T23:47:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: For one thing, they allow for a fairly nice abstraction over the os/implementation-specific details of pathnames
2017-12-26T23:49:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: You just use + document a particular prefix for the files you need, and then the user sets up the translations to point the logical pathnames wherever they please
2017-12-26T23:49:34Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: As much as people complain about the - I love logical pathnames.
2017-12-26T23:49:37Z drmeister: them
2017-12-26T23:49:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, they can specify translations very granularly: e.g. "MYAPP:config;**;*.*" can map one place and "MYAPP:data;**;*.*" can go somewhere else
2017-12-26T23:51:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, sbcl's implementation-specific part is pretty cool: you add a mapping for "SYS:SITE;**;*.*.*" to your .sbclrc and then it looks for files named <HOST>.translations in that directory to auto-load other hosts
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2017-12-27T00:05:07Z didi: How do I configure the printer so (let ((x (cons nil nil))) (setf (car x) x)) prints, without looping forever?
2017-12-27T00:06:22Z jasom: clhs *print-circle*
2017-12-27T00:06:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
2017-12-27T00:06:31Z jasom: didi: ^^^
2017-12-27T00:07:47Z didi: jasom: Thank you, but even after setting *print-circle* to t, it stills loops forever.
2017-12-27T00:08:37Z didi: I suspect it has to do with the self referencing at the car, and not at the cdr.
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2017-12-27T00:12:45Z jasom: didi: which implementation? That's a bug
2017-12-27T00:12:55Z didi: SBCL.
2017-12-27T00:12:58Z didi: jasom: ^
2017-12-27T00:13:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Works for me (sbcl 1.4.1
2017-12-27T00:13:07Z jasom:  (let ((*print-circle* t)) (prog1 nil (print (let ((x (cons nil nil))) (setf (car x) x))))) ;; <-- works for me
2017-12-27T00:13:36Z didi: jasom: Hum. Yours worked.
2017-12-27T00:13:41Z didi: Wait.
2017-12-27T00:14:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Weird, I'd assume that PRINT would be called outside the scope of that let
2017-12-27T00:14:06Z jasom: The REPL will try to print the results of PRINT, after *print-circle* is no longer bound to t, which is why the prog1 nil is there
2017-12-27T00:14:21Z didi: (let ((x (cons nil nil)) (*print-circlke* t)) (setf (car x) x)) loops.
2017-12-27T00:14:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah
2017-12-27T00:14:38Z didi: jasom: oic
2017-12-27T00:14:47Z jasom: didi: indeed because the print happens outside of the dynamic scope of your print-circle binding
2017-12-27T00:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to SETF *print-circle* to make it work in the repl
2017-12-27T00:14:58Z didi: TIL. Thank you, jasom.
2017-12-27T00:15:09Z didi: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks.
2017-12-27T00:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is one of those things that always confuses me :)
2017-12-27T00:22:37Z jasom: dynamic bindings are useful for some things, but it also quickly becomes obvious why lexical bindings are the default
2017-12-27T00:24:11Z jasom: I find myself doing things like (defun foo (arg1 &key (option1 *option1*)) ...) so that I can be explicit when I need it, but not have to have the same 2 arguments passed to every single function everywhere for the common case.
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2017-12-27T00:27:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a generic ASDF way to generate an image?
2017-12-27T00:28:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/generate/dump/
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2017-12-27T00:35:24Z didi: Heh, I've never used #'prog1 to stop the REPL from printing something. Before setting *print-length*, I used to add a final t or nil to form.
2017-12-27T00:37:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit annoying that PROG1 squashes multiple-values
2017-12-27T00:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: And forces you to use the much longer-namd multiple-value-prog1
2017-12-27T00:38:44Z didi: fiddlerwoaroof: Weird.
2017-12-27T00:40:07Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: (uiop:save-image)
2017-12-27T00:41:01Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/jasom/sqlitestore/blob/master/build.lisp <-- here's my current build script, it works on everything that supports images.  A small change can let it work on ECL type lisps as well, but I haven't done that yet.
2017-12-27T00:41:45Z pfdietz: m-v-p1 is a heavier weight thing.  prog1 is just a simple macro.
2017-12-27T00:41:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think (asdf:operate 'program-op :foo)
2017-12-27T00:41:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: is what I want
2017-12-27T00:43:08Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: that will work as long as your asdf file is setup correctly, but it does have the issue of putting it in your asdf cache rather than local.
2017-12-27T00:43:49Z didi: Hum. multiple-value-prog1 doesn't expand here with C-c C-m.
2017-12-27T00:44:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's a special operator, according to the standard
2017-12-27T00:44:15Z didi: oic
2017-12-27T00:44:30Z didi: SBCL defines it using `def-ir1-translator'.
2017-12-27T00:44:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think that means it's ok to implement it as a macro, but that would be implementation-dependent
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2017-12-27T00:44:50Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: in particular see "The pathname of the output of bundle operations is subject to output-translation as usual, unless the operation is equal to the :build-operation argument to defsystem. This behaviour is not very satisfactory and may change in the future. Maybe you have suggestions on how to better configure it? " in the ASDF docs for it
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2017-12-27T00:45:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's a bit annoying
2017-12-27T00:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, since the caches work fairly predictably it's not too bad
2017-12-27T00:45:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like cp $MY_CACHE_DIR/$PWD . (or the equivalent lisp)
2017-12-27T00:46:53Z didi: I wonder if there is a correlation between symbol names and function use.
2017-12-27T00:47:08Z didi: Length of symbol names, I mean.
2017-12-27T00:47:35Z didi: For instance, few use multiple-value-prog1 because it is too long.
2017-12-27T00:48:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, I use DESTRUCTURING-BIND occasionally
2017-12-27T00:48:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: ... quite a bit that is
2017-12-27T00:48:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND
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2017-12-27T00:53:33Z drmeister: Hey folks - I'm adding some optimizations to Clasp and I wanted to check my thinking.
2017-12-27T00:54:27Z drmeister: Currently Clasp's DEFMETHOD works like ECL - it walks the method lambda to determine if the method uses call-next-method or next-method-p and constructs a method function that does or doesn't have those local functions defined.
2017-12-27T00:54:46Z earl-ducaine: Lispiacs!  re: defvar.  I'd like to create a global special variable at run time that is ordinarially not present when the program's compiled files loaded.  The easiest way is just to create a macro like so: (defmacro define-site-variable (variable value) `(defvar ,variable ,value))
2017-12-27T00:54:50Z earl-ducaine: where define-site-variable is obviously just a bit of implementation hiding of calling (defvar variable value)
2017-12-27T00:54:54Z earl-ducaine: The question: is there any reason why it wouldn't be advisable to use defvar in a non-toplevel form, given clhs' warning about compiling that code having no side-effects. (which would appear to be what I want)
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2017-12-27T00:55:47Z drmeister: I think I need to store the result of that walk in the method by adding two new slots to the method class:   method-calls-next-method  and method-calls-next-method-p.
2017-12-27T00:58:02Z drmeister: I think I need to do this so that that I can optimize effective methods for slot accessors.   If a class has an accessor with more than one method if the first method that would be called doesn't call call-next-method or next-method-p I can optimize it as a direct slot access.
2017-12-27T01:00:20Z drmeister: Another optimization is if the first method of the effective method doesn't call call-next-method/next-method-p then I can call the method function passing the arguments directly rather than passing the arguments as a list.
2017-12-27T01:01:06Z drmeister: Adding slots to the method class is kind of drastic but I think that's what needs to be done.
2017-12-27T01:01:11Z drmeister: Any thoughts?
2017-12-27T01:06:52Z drmeister: Not like I'm waiting or anything - I'm proceeding with adding a leaf-method-p slot that is T if the method doesn't call call-next-method or next-method-p.
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2017-12-27T02:40:41Z jmercouris: is there a way to detect OS in ASDF?
2017-12-27T02:41:10Z jmercouris: like something like feature-if :darwin (load files xyz)?
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2017-12-27T02:47:02Z jmercouris: I think for now I'll just define subsystems that load OS specific files
2017-12-27T02:47:26Z loke: jmercouris: #+linux ?
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2017-12-27T03:08:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think the normal thing would be to use a #+ reader conditional
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2017-12-27T03:09:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also do something like (member :darwin *features*) if you need to do something programatically, but you should probably make sure something like trivial-features has been loaded to normalize the features list
2017-12-27T03:13:09Z jmercouris: loke: Perhaps, I'll need to think about it
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2017-12-27T03:13:27Z jmercouris: I'm leaning towards subsystems for now
2017-12-27T03:13:46Z jmercouris: eg. defsystem next, defsystem next/cocoa, defsystem next/gtk
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2017-12-27T03:14:15Z jmercouris: I think it would be nice to be able to load the system without any graphical dependencies
2017-12-27T03:14:50Z jmercouris: especially for the purposes of tests
2017-12-27T03:15:30Z jmercouris: loke, fiddlerwoaroof, thank you for the feedback, I may do it that way yet :D
2017-12-27T03:15:40Z jmercouris: goodnight everyone
2017-12-27T03:15:42Z Zhivago: I think it is always nice to delegate decisions like that to the user rather than to try to detect.
2017-12-27T03:16:01Z Zhivago: Even better if you give them a mechanism by which to automate those policies.
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2017-12-27T04:29:26Z jasom: minion: memo for jmercouris the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
2017-12-27T04:29:27Z minion: buzz off!
2017-12-27T04:29:35Z jasom: minion: memo for jmercouris: the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
2017-12-27T04:29:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-12-27T04:37:54Z asarch: When you do: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") and QuickLisp is doing "[package retrospectiff2]..........................", is it compiling?
2017-12-27T04:38:16Z asarch: Or just loading in memory the package and its dependencies?
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2017-12-27T04:40:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-27T04:40:22Z NoNameWhatAShame: Good 5:40 beach :3
2017-12-27T04:40:49Z NoNameWhatAShame: (I guess you could call that a morning)
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2017-12-27T04:43:15Z beach: Yeah, sorry.  I overslept.
2017-12-27T04:43:32Z beach: NoNameWhatAShame: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2017-12-27T05:04:57Z SaganMan: Morning!
2017-12-27T05:05:05Z loke: Helo
2017-12-27T05:05:15Z SaganMan: hello loke
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2017-12-27T05:19:53Z Fare: beach: chao anh
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2017-12-27T09:00:11Z dmiles: is it acceptable to store :allocation :class slots on the class :prototype?
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2017-12-27T09:02:10Z beach: I don't think that can work.
2017-12-27T09:02:28Z beach: What if you have a subclass that shares the slot with its superclass?
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2017-12-27T09:03:34Z dmiles: good point that would "cover up" the supertypes instnace
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2017-12-27T09:04:05Z loke: dmiles: But it could be stored in the class' metaclass, couldn't it?
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2017-12-27T09:04:26Z beach: I store it in the effective slot metaobject in SICL.
2017-12-27T09:05:07Z loke: Oh here you are... Being all logcal and reasonable again. How are the rest of us going to be able to look smart? :-)
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2017-12-27T09:05:22Z beach: Sorry!
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2017-12-27T09:08:40Z beach: dmiles: More to the point, if you assign to that slot in one class, it would not change in the other.
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2017-12-27T09:14:04Z dmiles: well you mean in the case the subclasses allocation (on its prototype) is differnt than the superclasses's allocation?
2017-12-27T09:14:45Z beach: No, when they are the same.  There will be one prototype for each class, so there would be two places to store the shared slot.
2017-12-27T09:16:03Z dmiles: Ah, ok, that makes sense.
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2017-12-27T11:32:01Z veckon: Has anyone here ever used Genera?
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2017-12-27T11:34:30Z dim: yes (but not me)
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2017-12-27T11:36:28Z veckon: Do you know if there are any manuals for the 3D design/rendering software the Symbolics Graphics Divison created?
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2017-12-27T11:54:27Z Cymew: Probably. Were they included in the Genera distriubution? If not, you probably need to get them from the same source as the software.
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2017-12-27T11:54:53Z veckon: I don't think they were included in the Genera distribution, actually, but I am not sure
2017-12-27T11:56:20Z Cymew: veckon: What's the name of that rendering software?
2017-12-27T11:56:37Z veckon: S-Graphics (S-Dynamics, S-Render, S-Paint, S-Geometry)
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2017-12-27T12:07:36Z Cymew: Thanks. I have never inventoried what Genera software I have available.
2017-12-27T12:09:17Z dmiles: ty for suggerstions .. i am making it all the way thru https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/t/sanity-test-1.lisp#L158
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2017-12-27T12:44:25Z phoe: I have a string like ":FOO :BAR :BAZ :QUUX". Is there a function that will read it as a list?
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2017-12-27T12:44:54Z phoe: Like, I want something better than to define my own function that does (READ-FROM-STRING (CONCATENATE 'STRING "(" STRING ")")).
2017-12-27T12:45:08Z phoe: Since I have a feeling there's a library function for it somewhere.
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2017-12-27T12:49:10Z antoszka: phoe: (map 'list #'read-from-string (split-sequence ":FOO :BAR"))
2017-12-27T12:49:16Z antoszka: (using split-sequence)
2017-12-27T12:50:30Z phoe: antoszka: good enough. Thanks!
2017-12-27T12:50:55Z antoszka: can't think of anything simpler
2017-12-27T12:50:57Z oleo: (with-input-from-string (s ":FOO :BAR :BAZ :QUUX") (loop for i in s collect i)) ?
2017-12-27T12:51:09Z antoszka: yeah, loop with collect was another thought I had
2017-12-27T12:51:22Z antoszka: doesn't use external libraries
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2017-12-27T12:53:14Z pfdietz: Can also use the second return value of READ-FROM-STRING, which is the position of the first character not read.  Also, the :START keyword parameter of READ-FROM-STRING.
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2017-12-27T12:54:00Z antoszka: oleo: but you'd still need to split-sequence S
2017-12-27T12:54:01Z phoe: oleo: "for i in s"? does LOOP work with streams like that?
2017-12-27T12:54:06Z antoszka: nope :)
2017-12-27T12:54:12Z antoszka: At least it doesn't for me :)
2017-12-27T12:54:15Z phoe: because I don't think so, S is expected to be a list in this case AFAIK
2017-12-27T12:54:18Z oleo: no it does not
2017-12-27T12:54:20Z oleo: meh
2017-12-27T12:54:42Z antoszka: phoe: UGLY solution, wrap your string in () and just read-from-string :)
2017-12-27T12:55:11Z pfdietz: You would need to read from S, with eof-error-p false, and a distinct eof-value you'd check for to terminate the loop.
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2017-12-27T12:56:05Z phoe: antoszka: read a little bit higher
2017-12-27T12:56:17Z phoe: 13:44 < phoe> Like, I want something better than to define my own function that does (READ-FROM-STRING (CONCATENATE 'STRING "(" STRING ")")).
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2017-12-27T12:57:33Z phoe: (:
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2017-12-27T12:58:31Z Zhivago: (with-input-from-string (s ":foo :bar") (loop for x = (read s nil) until (null x) collect x)) ; like this, surely?
2017-12-27T12:59:43Z antoszka: phoe: ah, ok
2017-12-27T12:59:44Z pfdietz: (read (apply #'make-concatenated-stream (mapcar #'make-string-input-stream (list "(" string ")"))))
2017-12-27T12:59:47Z antoszka: pfdietz: well, that's UGLY
2017-12-27T13:00:17Z antoszka: s/pfdietz/phoe/
2017-12-27T13:00:52Z pfdietz: Zhivago: that's fine unless the list has a NIL in it.
2017-12-27T13:01:10Z Zhivago: Easy to avoid -- use a cons as the sentinel.
2017-12-27T13:02:02Z pfdietz: And if you have concern about consing on the heap make it dynamic-extent.
2017-12-27T13:02:22Z Zhivago: Ah, the stream, of course.
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2017-12-27T13:03:09Z Zhivago: (with-input-from-string (s ":foo :bar") (loop for x = (read s nil s) until (eql x s) collect x))
2017-12-27T13:03:25Z pfdietz: That works too.
2017-12-27T13:03:31Z Zhivago: But preferably with sensible identifiers.
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2017-12-27T13:04:27Z oleo: * (with-input-from-string (s ":FOO :BAR :BAZ :QUUX") (loop repeat 4 collect (read s)))
2017-12-27T13:04:36Z oleo: that was it
2017-12-27T13:05:01Z Zhivago: If you know how many there will be, certainly.
2017-12-27T13:05:06Z antoszka: what if there are N elements
2017-12-27T13:05:31Z z0d: you just put N instead of 4. oh wait..
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2017-12-27T13:09:46Z antoszka: how about just catching the END-OF-FILE condition and not specifying the number of repetitions?
2017-12-27T13:09:54Z oleo: you can use two loops one for counting how many reads it does that will determine the length of the string
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2017-12-27T13:11:36Z Zhivago: antoszka: That is what (with-input-from-string (s ":foo :bar") (loop for x = (read s nil s) until (eql x s) collect x)) does.
2017-12-27T13:12:24Z antoszka: oh, cool
2017-12-27T13:12:30Z antoszka: didn't understand that
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2017-12-27T13:24:42Z oleo: works even with eq
2017-12-27T13:25:21Z oleo: when the end is reached x's value is the whole of s
2017-12-27T13:25:26Z oleo: heh
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2017-12-27T13:31:28Z oleo: (with-input-from-string (s ":FOO :BAR :BAZ :QUUX") (loop as x = (read s nil s) while (not (eql x s)) collect x))
2017-12-27T13:31:44Z oleo: however it does not work with the with keyword
2017-12-27T13:31:55Z oleo: and i'm not sure when "with" is used actually
2017-12-27T13:32:04Z oleo: loop with x = is a no go
2017-12-27T13:32:27Z phoe: "with x =" is equivalent to a LET* binding
2017-12-27T13:32:43Z oleo: is that an additional keyword after some variable is already used ?
2017-12-27T13:32:53Z oleo: as in (loop as x = bla with y =....
2017-12-27T13:32:57Z oleo: ?
2017-12-27T13:34:30Z beach: oleo: (loop as x = bla for y = (f x) do...)
2017-12-27T13:34:59Z oleo: btw x= does not work
2017-12-27T13:35:05Z oleo: but x =(bla) does
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2017-12-27T13:35:14Z beach: sure x= is a symbol
2017-12-27T13:35:19Z oleo: ok
2017-12-27T13:36:12Z oleo: what's the difference between as and for ?
2017-12-27T13:36:19Z beach: None
2017-12-27T13:36:22Z oleo: ok
2017-12-27T13:36:41Z oleo: and when do you use then ?
2017-12-27T13:36:53Z oleo: and next ?
2017-12-27T13:37:19Z beach: (loop for x = 1 then (f x) ...)
2017-12-27T13:37:39Z beach: Turns x into 1, (f 1), (f (f 1)) ..
2017-12-27T13:38:06Z oleo: ah
2017-12-27T13:38:15Z beach: There is no next loop keyword that I can remember.
2017-12-27T13:38:22Z oleo: ok
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2017-12-27T14:11:07Z dmiles: is there not some default macro for (equalp (symbol-name x) (symbol-name y))  ?
2017-12-27T14:11:45Z beach: No.
2017-12-27T14:11:50Z beach: What do you need it for?
2017-12-27T14:11:54Z dmiles: (matching keywords symbols)
2017-12-27T14:11:57Z phoe: dmiles: use STRING=
2017-12-27T14:12:01Z dmiles: (matching keywords to symbols)
2017-12-27T14:12:09Z phoe: (string= :foo 'foo) ;=> T
2017-12-27T14:12:22Z beach: Ah, forgot about that one.
2017-12-27T14:12:29Z dmiles: thank you.. yup that worked
2017-12-27T14:12:36Z beach: dmiles: What kind of keywords?
2017-12-27T14:12:50Z phoe: I have been committing a lot of sins related to comparing symbol names of symbols from different packages.
2017-12-27T14:12:54Z dmiles: to bad this returns true (STRING= '#:a "A")
2017-12-27T14:13:03Z phoe: dmiles: no, why?
2017-12-27T14:13:16Z phoe: #:a is naturally upcased as all symbols are by default
2017-12-27T14:13:17Z phoe: use
2017-12-27T14:13:20Z beach: dmiles: Can you explain more about what you need it for?
2017-12-27T14:13:35Z phoe: '#:|a| instead to make sure the "a" is escaped and therefore not upcased.
2017-12-27T14:13:37Z dmiles: phoe: its fine that it returns true .. just hoping i dont miss an error
2017-12-27T14:14:03Z phoe: anyway
2017-12-27T14:14:11Z phoe: dmiles: what beach said, what do you need it for?
2017-12-27T14:14:11Z dmiles: beach: well when compiling lambda keywords
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2017-12-27T14:14:28Z beach: Lambda-list keywords are symbols in the Common Lisp package.
2017-12-27T14:14:44Z beach: You should not use the name for those.  You should compare symbols using EQ.
2017-12-27T14:14:52Z phoe: like &rest?
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2017-12-27T14:14:58Z beach: clhs &rest
2017-12-27T14:14:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2017-12-27T14:15:02Z phoe: this is a symbol, you can (eq '&rest somethnig)
2017-12-27T14:15:25Z beach: Not only can, but should.
2017-12-27T14:15:33Z phoe: yup
2017-12-27T14:18:55Z dmiles: sorry keys.. not keywords.  &key test    with user supplied :test
2017-12-27T14:19:04Z phoe: dmiles: I still don't get iet
2017-12-27T14:19:10Z phoe: test should be a function designator
2017-12-27T14:19:19Z phoe: so something funcallable
2017-12-27T14:19:26Z phoe: so either a function object, or a symbol that is a function name
2017-12-27T14:19:54Z phoe: still can't see anything STRING=able
2017-12-27T14:21:15Z beach: dmiles: Those should also be compared as symbols.
2017-12-27T14:21:20Z dmiles: matching  "(member 1 '(1 2 3) :test #'=)"   to   (defun member (item list &key test test-not key) .. )
2017-12-27T14:21:44Z beach: dmiles: Those should also be compared as symbols, not just the names.
2017-12-27T14:21:46Z dmiles: (eql cl::test :test) ==> nil
2017-12-27T14:21:56Z beach: *sigh*
2017-12-27T14:22:07Z phoe: dmiles: wait a second, are you matching what to what?
2017-12-27T14:22:16Z phoe: "(member ...)" is a string
2017-12-27T14:22:23Z phoe: (defun member ...) is a macro call
2017-12-27T14:22:44Z Zhivago: dmiles: Is there a reason that you want to ignore the package in this comparison?
2017-12-27T14:22:57Z beach: dmiles: (eq keyword:test :test) => T
2017-12-27T14:23:28Z dmiles: i am catching errors like:    (member 1 '(1 2 3) 'test #'=)
2017-12-27T14:23:49Z phoe: dmiles: why are you trying to catch these errors instead of letting Lisp catch them?
2017-12-27T14:23:54Z beach: dmiles: You should compare the SYMBOLS using EQ.
2017-12-27T14:24:06Z beach: phoe: He is implementing a Common Lisp system.
2017-12-27T14:24:23Z phoe: beach: ooh, I see.
2017-12-27T14:24:50Z dmiles: i do alwasy compare symbols with eq once compiled
2017-12-27T14:25:19Z beach: Once compiled?  Not before?
2017-12-27T14:25:21Z dmiles: (even before compiled #'eq is fine)
2017-12-27T14:25:21Z beach: So why do you need string comparison?
2017-12-27T14:25:30Z phoe: Then you will want to match only *the* symbol :TEST and not any other symbol like FOO:TEST.
2017-12-27T14:26:23Z dmiles: whnen i am returning the error message i would like to let the user know that they should have used a keyword
2017-12-27T14:28:00Z phoe: So, from what I understand, you want to catch three cases.
2017-12-27T14:28:09Z phoe: 1) when the user uses :TEST - everything is okay, the function call is made.
2017-12-27T14:28:34Z phoe: 2) when the user uses 'TEST which is not a keyword but is STRING= to a valid keyword - you want to inform the user that there is a keyword available that perhaps should have been used.
2017-12-27T14:29:00Z phoe: 3) when the user uses a thing like 'KJAFKJHF that is not EQ or STRING= to anything - you just want to err out.
2017-12-27T14:29:08Z phoe: Do I understand this correctly?
2017-12-27T14:29:26Z dmiles: phone: exactly :)
2017-12-27T14:29:59Z phoe: In this case, STRING=. (:
2017-12-27T14:30:14Z dmiles: *nod* yeah i agree
2017-12-27T14:35:47Z pjb: (defun foo (&key test ((test #:bad-test) nil bad-test-p))  (when bad-test-p (error "You should have used :test not 'test")))
2017-12-27T14:37:01Z pjb: But the question is why you want to test those cases?  a bad keyword is a bad keyword, the lisp system already reports them.
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2017-12-27T14:38:01Z dmiles: i understand it is wrong heads to ever compare symbols by name.. that anyone doing that is obviously doing something wrong
2017-12-27T14:38:26Z pjb: dmiles: the implicit point here being that 'test might be exactly what the keyword should be, if the user programmed it so!
2017-12-27T14:38:45Z phoe: dmiles: not really.
2017-12-27T14:38:51Z pjb: dmiles: there's only one place where you need to compare symbols by name, it's with LOOP keywords.
2017-12-27T14:38:52Z phoe: LOOP compiles symbols by name, internally.
2017-12-27T14:39:00Z phoe: so when you write (loop for ...), the FOR can come from any package.
2017-12-27T14:39:06Z phoe: s/compiles/compares/
2017-12-27T14:39:10Z dmiles: pjb: yes indeed that is what is happening in 44mb of work code.. we dont have to actually use keyword names in cyc.. we have to use the right key from the right package is all
2017-12-27T14:39:30Z pjb: (loop #:for i :in '(1 2 3) collect i) #| --> (1 2 3) |#
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2017-12-27T14:40:11Z pjb: But strangely, (loop "FOR" i "IN" '(1 2) "COLLET" i) doesn't work :-)
2017-12-27T14:40:25Z joga: off-topic but quite beautiful... https://github.com/fergusq/tampio
2017-12-27T14:40:30Z pjb: ie. you cannot just compare with string=, you have to compare with (and symbolp string=)
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2017-12-27T14:42:56Z dmiles: pjb: makes sense
2017-12-27T14:51:18Z dmiles: my other usecase i am setting up for is durring make-isntance that i respect slots from differnt classes that came from differnt packages
2017-12-27T14:51:28Z dmiles: in the initialization argument list
2017-12-27T14:52:17Z dmiles: (when classes have been synthesized from differnt packages)
2017-12-27T14:53:31Z dmiles: his::name "Joe" orm::name "o1111"  since  :name would be ambiguous
2017-12-27T14:54:10Z loke: pjb: Wouldn't you say that in the following, the symbol is compared by name?
2017-12-27T14:54:23Z loke: pjb: (defun foo (&key x) ...)
2017-12-27T14:54:40Z loke: X is a local symbol, but later looked up by name in the KEYWORD package
2017-12-27T14:55:23Z dmiles: loke: i was going to make that argument.. but technically we can compile  :x in the parse and have it bind to foo:x in the body
2017-12-27T14:55:28Z loke: It really should be (&key :x) ...
2017-12-27T14:55:59Z dmiles: so it becomes..  (&key (:x foo:x))
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2017-12-27T14:56:17Z dmiles: oops  (&key ((:x foo:x)..) )
2017-12-27T14:56:58Z loke: The interesting thing is that :INITARG for DEFCLASS is indeed processed that way. You can specify an initarg in any package, not just KEYWORD:
2017-12-27T14:57:20Z loke: (defclass bar () ((val :initarg z))) (slot-value (make-instance 'bar 'z 10) 'val) ⇒ 10
2017-12-27T14:57:44Z dmiles: exactly
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2017-12-27T14:59:13Z loke: Plenty of times have I forgot to add the colon in front of an INITARG argument. Annoying :-)
2017-12-27T14:59:35Z dmiles: parsing initargs i have to pass once over wwith #'eq then again over with (equal (symbol-name their-keyword)(symbol-name read-symbol-not-in-keyword))
2017-12-27T15:00:06Z dmiles: s/read-symbol-not-in-keyword/real-symbol-not-in-keyword/g
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2017-12-27T15:01:19Z dmiles: any initargs left over i'd liek to print to loke
2017-12-27T15:03:24Z dmiles: i think it is nice to allow:  (make-instance 'bar 'z 10)  or  (make-instance 'bar :z 10)
2017-12-27T15:03:41Z dmiles: it might even be required?
2017-12-27T15:03:55Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-27T15:04:43Z dmiles: if 'z came from the wrong package it is nice to issue a small worning?
2017-12-27T15:04:56Z dmiles: (or can that be an error?)
2017-12-27T15:05:06Z phoe: dmiles: that's an error
2017-12-27T15:05:32Z dmiles: ok good.. that way people can keep members private that way
2017-12-27T15:05:42Z phoe: you can have (make-instance 'bar 'foo:z 1 'baz:z 2 'quux:z 3), too
2017-12-27T15:05:51Z phoe: so it stops being trivial
2017-12-27T15:06:24Z dmiles: yeah.. that is exactly the tests i am working on
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2017-12-27T15:11:24Z dmiles: many serialized objects in cyc have  "defun based constructors" that mimic the init slots using (foo:make-foo &key foo::z baz::z quux::z ) ...
2017-12-27T15:12:29Z dmiles: (secretly i thought that was standard until a couple years ago.. and was slightly surprised)
2017-12-27T15:12:56Z dmiles: but Cyc is a differnt dialect of lisp
2017-12-27T15:13:22Z jmercouris: I've defined the following asd: https://gist.github.com/8c7ff859c3b6b4fc51c44c1a48188321 how do I load my subsystem?
2017-12-27T15:13:23Z minion: jmercouris, memo from jasom: the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
2017-12-27T15:13:53Z jmercouris: it doesn't appear anywhere in slime-load-system, it only shows the parent system
2017-12-27T15:14:15Z phoe: jmercouris: do you use Quicklisp or plain ASDF?
2017-12-27T15:14:20Z jmercouris: phoe: quicklisp
2017-12-27T15:14:39Z phoe: jmercouris: (ql:register-local-projects) first
2017-12-27T15:14:42Z phoe: and then try quickloading
2017-12-27T15:14:59Z jmercouris: phoe: I've never had to do that though, I've set up my config file to look
2017-12-27T15:15:24Z jmercouris: e.g. I have setup ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf
2017-12-27T15:15:43Z jmercouris: to point to the directory that contains my lisp source code
2017-12-27T15:15:51Z phoe: jmercouris: my knowledge might not be enough in this case. I'm no good with more complex ASDF setups.
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2017-12-27T15:16:25Z jmercouris: you know what is really interesting, I typed in the string, and it worked
2017-12-27T15:16:38Z jmercouris: but it did not come up in my auto suggest :|
2017-12-27T15:17:06Z jmercouris: Now that I loaded one of the systems from the file, it now comes up in IVY
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2017-12-27T15:17:21Z jmercouris: probably some sort of emacs cache issue
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2017-12-27T15:33:48Z Xach_: What does not come up in auto suggest?
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2017-12-27T15:36:13Z jmercouris: Xach_: Systems declared in the same asd file
2017-12-27T15:36:47Z jmercouris: so if you look at the gist I posted earlier https://gist.github.com/8c7ff859c3b6b4fc51c44c1a48188321, next/cocoa doesn't come up in slime-load-system, but next does
2017-12-27T15:37:01Z Xach_: oh. slime-load-system is something that works only in a limited set of circumstances.
2017-12-27T15:37:22Z jmercouris: yeah, it does completely work actually
2017-12-27T15:37:28Z jmercouris: I can slime-load-system and type the full string
2017-12-27T15:37:35Z jmercouris: but it does not suggest it to me
2017-12-27T15:37:36Z Xach_: I mean for completion.
2017-12-27T15:37:40Z jmercouris: ah, okay :D
2017-12-27T15:37:41Z jmercouris: then yes
2017-12-27T15:37:55Z Xach_: There is no way to know in advance the lst of strings that will return a good result for find-system.
2017-12-27T15:38:29Z jmercouris: What do you mean? can you expand on that please?
2017-12-27T15:39:00Z Xach_: jmercouris: when you do (asdf:find-system "foo") -- a precursor to loading a system -- asdf consults a number of functions to convert the string "foo" into a path to a system file (or a system object)
2017-12-27T15:39:12Z Xach_: This mapping is very handy and is one of the reasons why quicklsp caan do what it does.
2017-12-27T15:39:36Z Xach_: But it does mean that, when doing auto-complete, there's no easy way to say "give me a list of all systems that start with 's'" for completion purposes.
2017-12-27T15:40:03Z Xach_: But there is one built-in, standard function that is not so hard to use like that, because it maps from strings to files in the registry config.
2017-12-27T15:40:18Z Xach_: So you could consult the file system to say "which *.asd files in the registry start with 'f'?"
2017-12-27T15:40:41Z Xach_: but it can't tell you anything about the subsystems defined in one of those *.asd files.
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2017-12-27T15:43:18Z jmercouris: I see but you could traverse those returned files and pass them to the other function that finds systems right?
2017-12-27T15:44:06Z jmercouris: Ah, find-system only returns if the system exists
2017-12-27T15:44:14Z jmercouris: it doesn't list the systems in a given file
2017-12-27T15:44:17Z jmercouris: I misunderstood that function
2017-12-27T15:44:34Z jmercouris: Okay yes, I see now why that is impossible to solve :D
2017-12-27T15:44:55Z Xach_: jmercouris: if you load the system file, you could have more information to use for completion. but loading system files is a pretty heavyweight operation. it could load dozens of supporting systems.
2017-12-27T15:45:23Z Xach_: a new system should make it easier to explore the mapping without doing an unpredictable amount of work.
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2017-12-27T15:46:02Z jmercouris: Xach_: You could just write a simple parser that looks for defsystem + some string in each of those asd files
2017-12-27T15:46:07Z jmercouris: and use that as your source of completion
2017-12-27T15:46:20Z jmercouris: it's not necessary to know anything about the system or it's location as asdf:find-system can do that for you later, right?
2017-12-27T15:46:33Z Xach_: ha ha ha
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2017-12-27T15:46:41Z jmercouris: Why is that so funny?
2017-12-27T15:46:55Z Xach_: I think "just" and "simple" are inappropriate there.
2017-12-27T15:47:14Z jmercouris: I mean it doesn't sound like the most complex string parser in the world
2017-12-27T15:47:22Z jmercouris: it's just look for defsystem, then next token is the system name
2017-12-27T15:47:28Z phoe: the trouble is, these files can contain arbitrary code.
2017-12-27T15:47:39Z phoe: and sometimes they do.
2017-12-27T15:47:42Z jmercouris: I'm of course extremely ignorant about what this requires, but I thought that defsystem was ALWAYS followed by the system name
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2017-12-27T15:49:54Z beach: (#.(intern (concatenate 'string "DEF" "SYSTEM") (find-package "ASDF_USER")) name-of-system ...)
2017-12-27T15:50:08Z beach: ASDF-USER
2017-12-27T15:50:48Z jmercouris: I guess, but why would somebody obfuscate their declaration?
2017-12-27T15:51:10Z phoe: jmercouris: someone could write a macro for generating multiple systems.
2017-12-27T15:51:17Z phoe: that will expand into a PROGN of DEFSYSTEMs.
2017-12-27T15:51:18Z jmercouris: It at least seems a better solution than the current one
2017-12-27T15:51:53Z phoe: just a hypothesis, but generally, parsing Lisp isn't as trivial as it seems.
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2017-12-27T15:54:42Z beach: In fact, it requires the Common Lisp reader, which in turn requires a running Common Lisp system.
2017-12-27T15:54:47Z whoman: (case ('(' recurse/push-stack) (x read-symbol) (')' pop-stack)
2017-12-27T15:54:49Z whoman: )
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2017-12-27T16:01:47Z phoe: whoman: as long as you have a default reader, sure
2017-12-27T16:02:03Z phoe: a person might have shadowed their #\( and #\) symbol macros
2017-12-27T16:04:07Z whoman: ehe
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2017-12-27T16:04:50Z whoman: hmm eye of the beholder. as is life, readers are subjectively processed =) who knows what a person will feel when i wear a shirt consisting of the color Red
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2017-12-27T16:05:40Z phoe: I will feel #ff0000
2017-12-27T16:06:22Z jmercouris: phoe: there will probably be a few other colors in there as well
2017-12-27T16:07:39Z pfdietz: I liked Scalzi's book _Redshirts_, but as a general rule I like metafiction.
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2017-12-27T16:12:05Z Xach_: pfdietz: ok
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2017-12-27T16:14:04Z jmercouris: So now that Fare is leaving the community, who will further the development of ASDF?
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2017-12-27T16:14:28Z trafaret1: hi there
2017-12-27T16:14:47Z jmercouris: hello
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2017-12-27T16:17:51Z trafaret1: jmercouris: can I ask you common questoin about programming in lisp?
2017-12-27T16:18:15Z jmercouris: trafaret1: Of course, I may not be able to answer it, though someone else will, in IRC the etiquette is generally to just ask your question
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2017-12-27T16:19:40Z trafaret1: jmercouris: I not a programmer but I want to be, is it good choise to starte learning programing from lisp or it's bad idea?
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2017-12-27T16:20:22Z beach: It's an excellent idea.
2017-12-27T16:20:42Z beach: It is a much simpler language than (say) C++, Java, or C.
2017-12-27T16:20:47Z jmercouris: trafaret1: That is a difficult question, it depends, do you wish to make money as a programmer? What are your constraints in life, etc?
2017-12-27T16:21:03Z jmercouris: trafaret1: You'll have to tell us your motivations for learning programming before we can give a conclusive answer
2017-12-27T16:22:07Z jmercouris: trafaret1: What beach says is true about the simplicity of the language, the question is, can you afford to learn lisp and then another language for employment
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2017-12-27T16:22:46Z beach: jmercouris: I think every programmer should know Common Lisp, whether they actually need it in their job or not.
2017-12-27T16:25:02Z trafaret1: I have recently installed emacs and to be honest I fall in love with it, some ppl in interat says that lisp hard to learn but easy to write same things than in for example c/c++, java
2017-12-27T16:25:23Z uuplusu: I suggest starting from Python
2017-12-27T16:25:27Z trafaret1: I want to deal with web/game/math_calculus
2017-12-27T16:25:33Z beach: trafaret1: Every language is hard to learn well.
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2017-12-27T16:26:29Z jmercouris: beach: It is a luxury not all can afford
2017-12-27T16:26:56Z jmercouris: trafaret1: It sounds like you've already made up your mind, might as well learn lisp :)
2017-12-27T16:27:30Z beach: jmercouris: It is definitely not a luxury.  It is a necessity in order to be a good programmer.  Well, not necessarily Common Lisp, but some Lisp dialect.
2017-12-27T16:28:06Z beach: jmercouris: Granted, the industry if full of incompetent programmers, but that's not some advice I would like to give, i.e. to remain incompetent.
2017-12-27T16:28:27Z jmercouris: beach: If you were in some poor country and had to provide for your family asap, you'd learn whatever language pays money, and common lisp rarely pays money
2017-12-27T16:29:23Z jmercouris: I'm not promoting incompetency myself :D, but I do believe it is a luxry to become competent, imagine just struggling to survive and provide for you and your family, you will do the minimum you can do to get by, because you have so many other problems going on in your life that you have to manage
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2017-12-27T16:30:55Z Xach_: eschulte: looks like GRAPH is broken at the moment
2017-12-27T16:31:48Z jasom: jmercouris: also, the only supported subsytem syntax in foo.asd would be something like foo/bar (i.e. the prefix is the name of the .asd file, followed by a slash)
2017-12-27T16:32:10Z jmercouris: jasom: That's the syntax I am using
2017-12-27T16:32:16Z jmercouris: jasom: I saw that fare reccomends that
2017-12-27T16:32:33Z jasom: jmercouris: but yeah, slime won't autocomplete subsystems (finishing up reading backlog now)
2017-12-27T16:32:39Z jmercouris: jasom: ah okay :)
2017-12-27T16:32:45Z jmercouris: jasom: Thanks for your memo anyway
2017-12-27T16:32:51Z jasom: IMO it should fix that though
2017-12-27T16:33:00Z jmercouris: jasom: I agree
2017-12-27T16:33:02Z jasom: foo/<TAB> should load the foo.asd for completion
2017-12-27T16:33:19Z jasom: but foo<TAB> maybe not
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2017-12-27T16:46:46Z eschulte: Xach_: ah, thanks!  I made a breaking change to curry-compose-reader-macros and hadn't updated graph... should be fixed now
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2017-12-27T16:57:42Z Xach_: thanks!
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2017-12-27T17:05:26Z jasom: Xach_: how does one submit a system for QL?
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2017-12-27T17:07:12Z Xach_: jasom: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html has some ideas
2017-12-27T17:07:21Z jasom: Xach_: thanks
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2017-12-27T18:16:45Z Xach_: jasom: what delight awaits future quicklisp dists?
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2017-12-27T18:21:54Z stylewarning: jmercouris: I’m pretty sure that if you can afford to be somewhat competent enough to become an industry programmer, you can fit Lisp in with it.
2017-12-27T18:22:38Z stylewarning: I am baffled when there’s this implication that folks are able to really only learn a single language or they must somehow make a presumably lifelong choice and dedication to some single language
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2017-12-27T18:23:42Z rme: I seem to be semi-dedicated to CL.
2017-12-27T18:24:29Z stylewarning: rme: but I’ll suppose on the outset that you didn’t think “well, I’ve got one language to learn in my life, which should it be?”
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2017-12-27T18:24:52Z stylewarning: Or “I can only afford to learn one thing, I guess I’ll choose CL”
2017-12-27T18:25:10Z beach: stylewarning: Well said.
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2017-12-27T18:27:21Z beach: stylewarning: Will you submit a paper to ELS2018?
2017-12-27T18:27:38Z stylewarning: Yes!
2017-12-27T18:27:47Z beach: Excellent!
2017-12-27T18:27:52Z stylewarning: Likewise with a few of my coworkers
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2017-12-27T18:27:54Z dmiles: jmercouris: knowing and doing Prolog and/or Lisp work has always paid way more than C#,Java,Scala and ASP comvined
2017-12-27T18:28:15Z beach: stylewarning: I'll be happy to review drafts of it, if you think that would be advantageous.
2017-12-27T18:28:53Z dmiles: jmercouris: mostly due to being able to work in markets that are starved of programmers
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2017-12-27T18:29:08Z beach: I will do what I usually do, namely submit links to drafts here, so that anyone who wants can review the paper(s).
2017-12-27T18:29:15Z stylewarning: beach: I’d love that. I’m hoping I can publish about some of this quantum simulation business. We will probably be writing our drafts in a few weeks
2017-12-27T18:29:28Z beach: Sounds good.
2017-12-27T18:29:33Z dmiles: oh sorry to rme :P
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2017-12-27T18:30:18Z dmiles: (or whomever is affraid to take the time)
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2017-12-27T18:32:23Z shka: good evening
2017-12-27T18:32:59Z beach: Hello shka.
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2017-12-27T18:42:46Z rme: I've mostly been successful in earning a living with CL, though there are rough spots from time to time.
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2017-12-27T18:46:53Z jmercouris: stylewarning: The point is that you'll learn one language in your life, I myself have learned dozens of languages for different purposes at different times
2017-12-27T18:47:05Z jmercouris: the point is, that someone learning to program, as an absolute beginner should only learn one language
2017-12-27T18:47:19Z jmercouris: they don't have infinity time at their disposal, and they will have to make money with that language, so they better be good at it
2017-12-27T18:47:58Z stylewarning: Reasonable
2017-12-27T18:48:09Z stylewarning: Hopefully they’ll eventually learn Lisp ;)
2017-12-27T18:48:10Z jmercouris: stylewarning: s/is that you'll/is that you won't
2017-12-27T18:48:45Z jmercouris: I am just trying to imagine that guys life situation
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2017-12-27T18:49:06Z jmercouris: maybe I am making too many assumptions about it
2017-12-27T18:49:18Z jmercouris: stylewarning: Absolutely agreed, learning lisp has changed how I think about programming
2017-12-27T18:49:37Z jmercouris: I wouldn't say I have "learned" lisp, but I've learned some, and already so many of my old opinions have changed
2017-12-27T18:50:09Z jmercouris: dmiles: These types of jobs can be very highly paid, IFF they can be found, and that you must admit is more difficult than finding a job in Ruby or Python or some .NET technology
2017-12-27T18:50:57Z jmercouris: dmiles: rme even provides evidence for my claim, an excellent developer claiming there are rough spots
2017-12-27T18:51:13Z rme: I'm just a dumb hacker.
2017-12-27T18:51:25Z jmercouris: whatever you'd like to call yourself, I think your work is great
2017-12-27T18:51:34Z jmercouris: I'm a huge fan of CCL
2017-12-27T18:51:42Z jmercouris: I know you didn't create it solo or anything, but yeah
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2017-12-27T18:53:05Z rme: I'm nowhere near as good as Gary Byers, but thanks.
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2017-12-27T18:54:42Z jmercouris: You shouldn't compare yourself to the best when judging yourself
2017-12-27T18:54:48Z jmercouris: or what you think is the best
2017-12-27T18:55:03Z jmercouris: because by that same logic, whenever you are happy, you should be less happy, because no doubt someone is happier
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2017-12-27T18:55:17Z dmiles: jmercouris: oh definatley, there is probably aobut 1 or 2 lisp/prolog job openings per month that I see :P  verses 100s per week of everyhitng else.
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2017-12-27T18:55:26Z KZiemian: hello world!
2017-12-27T18:55:26Z minion: KZiemian, memo from beach: One item for CLUS.  In the description of the functions for setting macro character or dispatch macro character, the only place to figure out the signature of the function seems to be in the example.  It wouldn't hurt to state that signature explicitly.
2017-12-27T18:55:54Z shrdlu68: KZiemian: Hello!
2017-12-27T18:55:56Z stylewarning: We are hiring Lisp programmers!
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2017-12-27T18:56:01Z jmercouris: stylewarning: remote?
2017-12-27T18:56:06Z stylewarning: No remote.
2017-12-27T18:56:10Z jmercouris: :'(
2017-12-27T18:56:17Z jmercouris weeps softly
2017-12-27T18:56:22Z shrdlu68: stylewarning: Where?
2017-12-27T18:56:28Z KZiemian: stylewarning: for what kind of job?
2017-12-27T18:56:33Z stylewarning: Coolifornia
2017-12-27T18:56:46Z jmercouris laughs maniacally
2017-12-27T18:56:54Z dmiles: Palo Alto?
2017-12-27T18:57:05Z stylewarning: Berkeley
2017-12-27T18:57:31Z shka: great
2017-12-27T18:57:36Z shka: just one ocean away!
2017-12-27T18:58:07Z stylewarning: KZiemian: quantum computing but knowledge of that isn’t necessary. See this video sometime https://youtu.be/f9vRcSAneiw the email to email is at the end (:
2017-12-27T18:58:11Z fiddlerwoaroof wishes there were more remote lisp jobs and/or jobs in Ventur County, ca
2017-12-27T19:00:13Z dmiles would only look for a job that is allowing opensource and letting me work on what i work on
2017-12-27T19:00:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The company I work for is hiring senior engineers and we have opportunities to use clojure
2017-12-27T19:00:38Z stylewarning: dmiles that basically goes entirely against what jobs exist for, for the most part
2017-12-27T19:01:01Z stylewarning: (Fortunately we do open source. But it’s not a free for all.)
2017-12-27T19:01:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I haven't yet convinced them to allow CL yet: they would be willing if someone could present a compelling business case
2017-12-27T19:01:13Z dmiles: stylewarning: oh the incentive is that I'd get two or three people to do the things i dont like doing
2017-12-27T19:01:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: stylewarning: it sort of depends on the relationship of your company to the technology
2017-12-27T19:01:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: In places where network effects matter, e.g. advertising and social media, it's fairly risk-free to opensource your technology
2017-12-27T19:01:47Z shrdlu68: Eh, I can't be hired anyway-no formal education in CS.
2017-12-27T19:01:55Z rme: dmiles: haha, I just had a one-year gig doing the opposite of that . :-)
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2017-12-27T19:02:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: that's not an obstacle for good jobs
2017-12-27T19:02:57Z dmiles: rme: opposite? (you had to do the work of three people?)
2017-12-27T19:03:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most places you want to work will take demonstrated talent over formal CS education
2017-12-27T19:03:11Z stylewarning: shrdlu68: it’s not an issue
2017-12-27T19:03:18Z AeroNotix: A remote CL/Clojure job would be ideal
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2017-12-27T19:03:57Z rme: No, I was joking. I had to work on stuff I didn't want to and it was closed source.
2017-12-27T19:04:09Z mlius: opposite? (you had to do the work of three people?)
2017-12-27T19:04:09Z mlius: 21:03 < fiddlerwoaroof> Most places you want to work will take demonstrated talent over formal CS education
2017-12-27T19:04:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I work with a brilliant person who only has a highschool education
2017-12-27T19:04:12Z mlius: 21:03 < stylewarning> shrdlu68: it’s not an issue
2017-12-27T19:04:16Z stylewarning: dmiles it sounds like you should work as a grad student :)
2017-12-27T19:04:46Z KZiemian: stylewarning: quantum computing, nice
2017-12-27T19:06:03Z shrdlu68: Glad to know. I'll take a stab at getting a job.
2017-12-27T19:07:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu68: if you are interested in living in the LA area, PM me your contact info and I can send your resume to our internal recruiter
2017-12-27T19:08:47Z shrdlu68: fiddlerwoaroof: Hehe, I appreciate that, but I'm not in the U.S
2017-12-27T19:09:06Z KZiemian: stylewarning: thank you for wideo
2017-12-27T19:10:13Z rme: I'm living in the Seattle area at the moment, but if anyone wants me in a French-speaking country, let me know.
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2017-12-27T19:10:26Z KZiemian: stylewarning: intersting, extremly interesting
2017-12-27T19:10:49Z sjl: some day I'll find a remote CL job
2017-12-27T19:10:51Z sjl dreams
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2017-12-27T19:12:39Z KZiemian: one question
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2017-12-27T19:13:08Z KZiemian: how is the best way to learn ASDF (or easiest beetwen best)
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2017-12-27T19:13:23Z KZiemian: if I need to read documentation
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2017-12-27T19:13:28Z AeroNotix: "learn" in what way?
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2017-12-27T19:13:33Z AeroNotix: What do you want to do with it?
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2017-12-27T19:13:42Z KZiemian: I think I try to work some times without it
2017-12-27T19:13:50Z sjl: I printed and read the manual.  It's something like 90 pages total.
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2017-12-27T19:14:09Z KZiemian: slj: you mean for ASDF?
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2017-12-27T19:14:15Z sjl: KZiemian: Yes
2017-12-27T19:14:22Z KZiemian: slj: thanks
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2017-12-27T19:14:42Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: for CLUS project we need to makes add-on to CCLDoc
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2017-12-27T19:14:58Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: my job is to figure out how CCLDoc works
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2017-12-27T19:15:07Z AeroNotix: Oh right
2017-12-27T19:15:08Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: and CCLDoc use ASDF
2017-12-27T19:15:26Z AeroNotix: Just seemed a bit weird want to "learn" ASDF without a goal or issue in hnd
2017-12-27T19:15:28Z AeroNotix: hand
2017-12-27T19:16:41Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: issuie is to add-on to CCLDoc
2017-12-27T19:16:49Z AeroNotix: OK. Fair enough
2017-12-27T19:16:59Z AeroNotix: I just thought you literally wanted to "learn" ASDF in isolation to anything.
2017-12-27T19:17:08Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: and I wondering can I do it without knowledge of ASDF or not?
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2017-12-27T19:17:51Z AeroNotix: Probably. In all honesty ASDF has always lurked in the background of any lisp hacking I've ever done. I've rarely had to use its APIs directly and instead used Quicklisp which works on top of it.
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2017-12-27T19:18:05Z AeroNotix: Unsure how CCLDoc is built/organized, can go take a quick look
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2017-12-27T19:18:52Z AeroNotix: Found your ticket on ccldoc: https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc/issues/14
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2017-12-27T19:20:05Z AeroNotix: I don't get exactly what you're talking about here but from the sounds of it you've decided to use CCLDoc in another project and therefore also wanted to document CCLDoc in the process?
2017-12-27T19:21:17Z AeroNotix: Lots of Poles getting into CL recently. I should go to a meetup if I have time
2017-12-27T19:22:24Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: my english is a bit crap I know
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2017-12-27T19:22:28Z AeroNotix: It's fine.
2017-12-27T19:22:40Z AeroNotix: arguably better than my polish :)
2017-12-27T19:22:59Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: definitly :)
2017-12-27T19:23:07Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: okey
2017-12-27T19:23:37Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: I don't know all detailes because I was working on diffs between CLUS and CLHS when they are debating
2017-12-27T19:23:58Z AeroNotix: I'm reading about CLUS now. This is a new kind of be-all/end-all documentation project?
2017-12-27T19:24:18Z AeroNotix: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo seemingly with some kind of interactive UI/webpage aspect
2017-12-27T19:24:44Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: but when I come back to project at the second half of November
2017-12-27T19:25:06Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: they decided to write CLUS not in DokuWiki but in CCLDoc
2017-12-27T19:25:14Z AeroNotix: Who are "they"?
2017-12-27T19:25:43Z AeroNotix: Is there a page that explains what CLUS is and why it should exist?
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2017-12-27T19:25:59Z AeroNotix: aside from "This is Common Lisp UltraSpec, a community project to create a contemporary and unified documentation file for the whole modern Common Lisp universe."
2017-12-27T19:26:18Z AeroNotix: http://quickdocs.org/ exists
2017-12-27T19:26:27Z AeroNotix: http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/Contents.htm exists
2017-12-27T19:26:42Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: phoe, TeMPOraL, bugrum, mfiano and all other folks on Discord clus-general
2017-12-27T19:26:52Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: a good starting point perhaps could be to add some nicer CSS/formatting to the clhs?
2017-12-27T19:27:03Z AeroNotix: gah discord.
2017-12-27T19:27:14Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: they are "they"
2017-12-27T19:27:24Z KZiemian: gah discord? What you mean?
2017-12-27T19:27:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a #lisp discord bridge?
2017-12-27T19:27:48Z mfiano: Discord is horrible, but it happens to have a large Lisp community
2017-12-27T19:28:06Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: yes of course
2017-12-27T19:28:06Z AeroNotix: it's so damn slow and resource hungry to run it in the browser and "natively", though
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2017-12-27T19:28:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not really a fan of closed protocol chat systems
2017-12-27T19:30:20Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: if you want know what CLUS is about you must ask phoe, mfiano or some other big folk. Or read this https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/375
2017-12-27T19:31:25Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: I just quit my embrioning state as CL user and most things about documentation are beyond me
2017-12-27T19:32:38Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: project menager of CLUS is my bud from kraklisp, which is lisp community now in coma of people living in Cracow, Poland
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2017-12-27T19:33:47Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: and he start looking for help about weeks or so when I uderstand that I never left lisp embrionig state if I not find good project to work
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2017-12-27T19:34:44Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: 2 + 2 = 4 so I ask him that can I join and get deeper knowledge about CL working on CLUS
2017-12-27T19:35:17Z oleo: frigging thing
2017-12-27T19:35:36Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: so I get in and being in strange position of one of top contributors and at the same worst lispers of all members
2017-12-27T19:35:49Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: I understand
2017-12-27T19:35:54Z oleo: i have edited a definition of a library function from within my init file,but when i load it it does not take effect even tho it shows it as being redefined
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2017-12-27T19:36:29Z mfiano: What is an init file in this context?
2017-12-27T19:36:57Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: that good because situation is strange
2017-12-27T19:37:10Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: I wouldn't worry about it
2017-12-27T19:37:22Z AeroNotix: just contribute as you can and see where it goes. Not everything has to be perfect.
2017-12-27T19:37:24Z oleo: something which gets loaded via --load
2017-12-27T19:37:42Z AeroNotix: oleo: yeah but what? Who is calling that? What is the --load file? Can you share code?
2017-12-27T19:37:58Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: yes, Lisp is strange, as my life achivments. This is way I start my journey with this language
2017-12-27T19:38:10Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/2PENCQP
2017-12-27T19:38:17Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/26RK569
2017-12-27T19:38:28Z oleo: http://dpaste.com/3N9D3VS
2017-12-27T19:38:47Z oleo: sbcl version 1.4.2
2017-12-27T19:39:06Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: I hope you understand why I can't answer you question why CLUS? But phoe is near so you can ask him if some question left.
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2017-12-27T19:39:21Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: sure.
2017-12-27T19:39:28Z AeroNotix: oleo: which function are you redefining?
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2017-12-27T19:40:13Z oleo: parenthesis-highlighter from package drei-lisp-syntax
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2017-12-27T19:40:32Z oleo: that package is already loaded when i create the image
2017-12-27T19:40:40Z oleo: which then loads the init file
2017-12-27T19:41:09Z AeroNotix: http://dpaste.com/2PENCQP so line 30 here?
2017-12-27T19:41:41Z oleo: yes
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2017-12-27T19:41:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: i
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2017-12-27T19:42:20Z AeroNotix: oleo: both functions are the same in the init file
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2017-12-27T19:42:34Z oleo: i only see an effect when i edit the source file in place but not when i try to override it from my init file
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2017-12-27T19:42:57Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: about CSS I ask CLUS community that question
2017-12-27T19:43:01Z oleo: AeroNotix, yes i thought maybe i can already put the definition into the image
2017-12-27T19:43:20Z oleo: but to be sure i also defined it in my init file
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2017-12-27T19:43:42Z oleo: but it does not work neither way, the only solution seems to be to edit the source file, then i see an effect otherwise not
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2017-12-27T19:43:51Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: they said: Contetn is the king, don't worry about it for now
2017-12-27T19:43:52Z oleo: and i wonder why
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2017-12-27T19:44:31Z AeroNotix: oleo: interesting, unsure why that happens.
2017-12-27T19:44:37Z AeroNotix: or why it doesn't happen, rather.
2017-12-27T19:44:38Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: and because I the lowest in CL ranks among them I said: ok, I go to CCLDoc
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2017-12-27T19:45:02Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: ok
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2017-12-27T19:46:04Z mfiano: KZiemian: In case you are wondering, you are actually the only one doing work on CLUS. phoe took time off some months ago because life is getting in the way, and I was never part of the project really, just offered suggestions to get it rolling, but it stopped rolling again months ago.
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2017-12-27T19:46:51Z AeroNotix: Hence why I mentioned to stop worrying and just contribute where you can. Stop caring about "CL ranks" whatever that means. :)
2017-12-27T19:46:53Z AeroNotix: enjoy yourself :)
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2017-12-27T19:48:41Z KZiemian: mfiano: I know that untile phoe comeback keeping CLUS alife is my job
2017-12-27T19:49:02Z AeroNotix: as in literally being paid to do it?
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2017-12-27T19:49:36Z KZiemian: mfiano: the only things that is pain in the back for me is that, when I talk about it
2017-12-27T19:50:18Z emma is now known as em
2017-12-27T19:50:42Z KZiemian: mfiano: one ask question: So what is a state, where you are going, why you do it that way? And only answer I can get is: ask phoe or some other folk
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2017-12-27T19:51:30Z KZiemian: mfiano: I always feel bad in all are of my life, when I can't answer directly such basic question
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2017-12-27T19:51:45Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: PM.
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2017-12-27T19:52:00Z AeroNotix: as in read your pms :)
2017-12-27T19:52:05Z mfiano: There are no answers because there is no support of the project from anyone other than yourself. This may be a sign
2017-12-27T19:52:33Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: job = it is my duty, but my check is not in dollars but in Lisp knowldge and good words from community
2017-12-27T19:52:59Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: PM?
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2017-12-27T19:53:23Z pjb: KZiemian: there are only two ranks: lurkers, and heroes.
2017-12-27T19:53:37Z pjb: KZiemian: either you don't do anything and you're a lurker, or you do something and you're a hero.
2017-12-27T19:54:24Z pjb: KZiemian: PM = Private Messages.
2017-12-27T19:54:28Z KZiemian: mfiano: not quite true, there is a reson for using CCLDoc and not cearing about CSS, but I don't know either
2017-12-27T19:55:06Z AeroNotix: think a large amount of chilling needs to happen :)
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2017-12-27T19:55:19Z rme: KZiemian: Try starting out with something simple:  write some documentation in ccldoc format.
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2017-12-27T19:56:44Z rme: Use output-html to format and view it, and iterate from there.
2017-12-27T19:57:23Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: I still don't get what you mean by privite message
2017-12-27T19:57:40Z AeroNotix: Nevermind I just meant I sent you a private message on IRC
2017-12-27T19:57:41Z pjb: KZiemian: type: /msg pjb Here is a private message
2017-12-27T19:57:41Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: should I tell more thing on private waves?
2017-12-27T19:57:57Z KZiemian: how send privite masseg on IRC?
2017-12-27T19:58:03Z pjb: KZiemian: type: /msg pjb Here is a private message
2017-12-27T19:58:25Z AeroNotix: KZiemian: Which IRC client are you using?
2017-12-27T19:58:26Z KZiemian: pjb: you answer befor I ask :)
2017-12-27T19:59:13Z pjb: The thing is that receiving a private message should open a new window to dialog with the correspondant, and depending on the IRC client, this can be more or less conspicuous.
2017-12-27T19:59:18Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: GoogleChrome, I don't have enough energy to learn something more sophisticated
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2017-12-27T19:59:27Z AeroNotix: Sure. Like I said, never mind. It's not hugely important
2017-12-27T19:59:38Z pjb: KZiemian: I'd advice one of the emacs IRC clients, such as erc or beirc.
2017-12-27T19:59:42Z KZiemian: Now I try to end 1000 open projects in my life
2017-12-27T19:59:59Z pjb: KZiemian: do everything in emacs, you'll be happier (even if you don't realize it).
2017-12-27T20:00:18Z KZiemian: so don't want to start learning to much new things
2017-12-27T20:00:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only thing I don't do in emacs is writing Java/Scala
2017-12-27T20:00:32Z KZiemian: rme: I already do something like that
2017-12-27T20:00:44Z KZiemian: rme: https://github.com/KZiemian/Notes-on-and-examples-CCLDoc
2017-12-27T20:01:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because they need fancy IDE support to be even slightly bearable... and no one I work with wants to learn emacs :)
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2017-12-27T20:01:41Z KZiemian: I make Christmas break from working on CLUS
2017-12-27T20:02:00Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: I say, more code generation!  Write emacs lisp to generate parts of your programs; this is the killing feature of emacs.
2017-12-27T20:02:30Z KZiemian: and my starting question flow from my trying to get on the CLUS track again
2017-12-27T20:02:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've been really tempted to use ABCL to write some boilerplate-generators
2017-12-27T20:02:48Z KZiemian: this question was about ASDF
2017-12-27T20:03:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: What was the question, it's been a while
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2017-12-27T20:03:29Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: not important in this moment
2017-12-27T20:03:43Z pjb: KZiemian: about asdf, just take a simple project asd file, copy it, and modify it for your needs.
2017-12-27T20:04:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you use emacs, I've written a couple skeletons to generate .asd files
2017-12-27T20:04:41Z pjb: KZiemian: eg. https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/mclgui.asd
2017-12-27T20:04:43Z rme: ccldoc's .asd file is quite simple.
2017-12-27T20:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g.: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/dotfiles/blob/9abf345f72f6754bcc84ac807802ec0126d84895/emacs.d/lisp/lisp-skeletons.el#L108
2017-12-27T20:05:00Z pjb: There's very little reason to over do it.
2017-12-27T20:05:21Z KZiemian: pbj: open project number 734: learn more elisp to the point you can configure Emacs as you need
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2017-12-27T20:06:17Z KZiemian: If you want know what I more or less know about Lisp and Common Lisp in particular
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2017-12-27T20:06:21Z KZiemian: the answer is
2017-12-27T20:06:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to make an add-on to ccldoc, you probably just want to make a new system that depends on ccldoc
2017-12-27T20:06:28Z KZiemian: 18 first chapters of PCL http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2017-12-27T20:06:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then have whatever processes the documentation depend on both ccldoc and your new system
2017-12-27T20:07:07Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: like I say, you must ask phoe
2017-12-27T20:07:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, if ccldoc isn't designed to be extensible, this might not be feasible
2017-12-27T20:07:32Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: if you want know the answer
2017-12-27T20:07:49Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: we meet in real world on 18 December
2017-12-27T20:07:56Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: he told me his plan
2017-12-27T20:08:13Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: and we make two threads
2017-12-27T20:08:32Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: he work on his idea of extending CCLDoc
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2017-12-27T20:08:49Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: I seet on CCLDoc and try to understand and documented it
2017-12-27T20:08:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I thought you wanted to make an extension
2017-12-27T20:09:10Z jasom: Xach_: clinenoise (my port of linenoise from C to lisp).  I just had a bug filed against it so apparently someone other than I has already found it useful
2017-12-27T20:09:24Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: phoe is a brain of CLUS, I am the fingers that write code
2017-12-27T20:09:54Z jasom: Xach_: I'm doing things like docstrings and actually exporting symbols right now before I file the PR
2017-12-27T20:09:56Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: I apologized, if you want reason you must ask the true brain
2017-12-27T20:10:58Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: main point is that, when we both end we marge our threads and make add-ons to CCLDoc
2017-12-27T20:11:08Z Xach_: What is linenoise?
2017-12-27T20:11:17Z KZiemian: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know much more about it
2017-12-27T20:11:18Z pjb: noise on the line.
2017-12-27T20:11:23Z KZiemian: phoe: are you here
2017-12-27T20:11:35Z AeroNotix: You've tagged him a few times, I doubt he is
2017-12-27T20:11:38Z KZiemian: phoe: we need some of your thougths
2017-12-27T20:12:08Z KZiemian: AeroNotix: I catch him on Discord 30 minuts ago
2017-12-27T20:12:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach_:  looks like a readline alternative: https://github.com/antirez/linenoise
2017-12-27T20:12:29Z jasom: Xach_: a braindead Vt-100 line input
2017-12-27T20:13:33Z KZiemian: I'm sorry, from CLUS project I understand my thread and some of main idea what happens in other areas
2017-12-27T20:13:55Z jasom: Xach_: It occupies the same space roughly as linedit in the lisp world.
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2017-12-27T20:14:45Z KZiemian: so If you want to know big picture, I just not person to ask
2017-12-27T20:15:19Z jasom: It sits somewhere between cl:read-line and the GNU readline library in terms of features and complexity
2017-12-27T20:16:28Z jasom: I wrote it to use as the input for my toy shell, as I was dissatisfied with the existing options in various ways
2017-12-27T20:19:59Z KZiemian: okey, thank you for help
2017-12-27T20:21:28Z KZiemian: I try to read all Issue of CLUS on GitHub today
2017-12-27T20:21:44Z KZiemian: and make them comeback from river of Oblivion
2017-12-27T20:21:49Z KZiemian: see you
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2017-12-27T20:26:42Z rpg: In SLIME is there anything I can do to resync buffer position, so that warnings, etc. show up in the right place? I find that they drift from their proper position over time.
2017-12-27T20:27:05Z rpg: over time as I interactively compile expressions, that is.
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2017-12-27T20:29:18Z jmercouris: not that I know of, but you can always clear the screen
2017-12-27T20:29:34Z jmercouris: slime-repl-clear-output
2017-12-27T20:32:09Z rpg: jmercouris: It's not the REPL screen position, it's where SLIME "thinks" the defuns are in a lisp file, versus where they actually are.
2017-12-27T20:32:40Z rpg: If I do slime-compile-defun (I think that's the name) a few times, SLIME loses track of where to place the underlines for the warnings.
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2017-12-27T21:07:18Z Xach_: rpg: I hate to offer a guess, but it's the best I can do right now - maybe try recompiling the whole file? C-c C-k usually.
2017-12-27T21:07:47Z rpg: Xach_: That's probably right, but if I do that, I think I end up with a fasl pooped out into the source directory, instead of the cache :-/
2017-12-27T21:09:21Z rpg: I should probably just rerun the ASDF build when I need it. But the conclusion might be that -- despite the fact that it probably was a pretty challenging hack -- putting the warnings on the code, instead of in the minibuffer is a waste of time, at least when you're compiling interactively.
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2017-12-27T21:09:35Z rpg: It looks cool, but it's not functional
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2017-12-27T21:10:55Z rpg is dashing out to the coffee house -- cleaning staff with vacuums have arrived!
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2017-12-27T21:18:31Z _death: you can also load a file with C-c C-l
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2017-12-27T21:18:45Z jasom: _death beat me to saying it
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2017-12-27T21:21:00Z _death: also you could hack a C-c C-k -like command that write to the cached fasls dir
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2017-12-27T21:27:32Z pfdietz: jasom: while catching up on iRC archives, I noticed you asked about lisp compiler fuzzing.
2017-12-27T21:28:49Z pfdietz: I sent a flurry of bug reports (mostly fixed now) to sbcl recently that were generated by various kinds of that.
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2017-12-27T21:30:04Z jasom: pfdietz: nice!
2017-12-27T21:34:08Z jasom: pfdietz: One of the great wins when I last fuzzed a compiler was how many bugs in a short time could be uncovered, which allowed for finding patterns with just short-term data.  e.g. one class of optimizations was found to be a large source of bugs, so those were removed or rewritten in a different style.  Perhaps 10 years of organic bug reports could have been aggregated to find such a pattern, but having 30
2017-12-27T21:34:10Z jasom: or so bugs in a few months made it obvious just by "wait, didn't I just fix a bug like this"
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2017-12-27T21:36:49Z pfdietz: I think it's important to keep fuzzing, because development introduces new bugs, but also exposes old bugs.  Still finding bugs that go back to CMUCL.
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2017-12-27T22:31:34Z makomo: anyone know if there's a way to make cl-json use hashtables instead of alists?
2017-12-27T22:31:44Z makomo: for representing objects
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2017-12-27T22:32:57Z jasom: makomo: 1 sec, I think I have done that
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2017-12-27T22:34:30Z jasom: makomo: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/e01f45a00577c22200ffdf8113efc421d3f00e10/src/util.lisp#L25
2017-12-27T22:35:12Z makomo: ah, so custom handlers
2017-12-27T22:35:14Z jasom: makomo: that assumes you want to use keywords for keys
2017-12-27T22:36:01Z jasom: makomo: also note that I use vectors for json lists as well, so nil is unambigously false.
2017-12-27T22:37:15Z makomo: jasom: aha, got it, thanks :-)
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2017-12-27T22:39:37Z jasom: actually null would also decode to nil, but my data shouldn't have nulls in it for this case.
2017-12-27T22:41:37Z jasom: makomo: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries#TOC-Quick-JSON-syntax-refresher cl-json decodes 4! JSON types to something that could be nil by default :(
2017-12-27T22:43:29Z jasom: com.gigamonkeys.json is the only one on the list with a JSON->lisp->JSON that can survive a round-trip by default.
2017-12-27T22:44:44Z makomo: hm yeah, i only thought about the false/null case, but object/arrays could ofc be empty
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2017-12-27T22:46:15Z jasom: the number of times that I've needed to distinguish betwenn "false" and "null" in javascript code is approximately zero, so that one is the most forgivable.
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2017-12-27T22:49:30Z jasom: hmm, I was bad and didn't use safe-json-intern for making the keyword there though...
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2017-12-27T23:11:05Z stylewarning: I started writing a JSON representation using algebraic data types
2017-12-27T23:11:10Z stylewarning: But never followed through
2017-12-27T23:14:33Z _death: jasom: this is why I always use com.gigamonkeys.json
2017-12-27T23:16:03Z stylewarning: An idea I’ve had is to have a JSON parser compiler
2017-12-27T23:16:22Z stylewarning: So you could product efficient parsers into whatever data structure you prefer
2017-12-27T23:16:23Z _death: schema -> parser?
2017-12-27T23:16:46Z stylewarning: Not anything related to schemes
2017-12-27T23:16:52Z stylewarning: Schemas ^
2017-12-27T23:19:12Z _death: maybe https://github.com/rotatef/json-streams could be useful
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2017-12-27T23:26:37Z makomo: is there an idiomatic way to convert between a generalized boolean and a boolean?
2017-12-27T23:27:13Z _death: (defun bool (x) (if x t nil))
2017-12-27T23:28:26Z makomo: yeah, that's what i thought. thought there might be some neat way using and/or or something, but they both return either nil or the last value/the first non-nil value
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2017-12-27T23:29:45Z _death: "neat" is not how I would describe it, but you can always (and x t)
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2017-12-27T23:31:55Z makomo: ah yeah, not sure why that didn't cross my mind lol
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2017-12-27T23:35:37Z aeth: If you're going to be unclear and use (and x t), you could still use if's implicit nil else and just say (if x t)
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2017-12-27T23:36:54Z aeth: All three should have identical disassemblies with a sufficiently smart compiler. Works in SBCL.
2017-12-27T23:37:45Z oleo: (when x t) ?
2017-12-27T23:37:57Z oleo: if you want to prevent the nil branch
2017-12-27T23:38:01Z makomo: i agree it's not very clear so i probably won't use it. i was wondering whether a clever trick like that is idiomatic or not.
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2017-12-27T23:38:53Z aeth: s/still use if's implicit nil else/still use if, with if's implicit nil else,/
2017-12-27T23:39:00Z _death: can take a C idiom and use (not (not x))
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2017-12-27T23:40:44Z jasom: (not (null x))
2017-12-27T23:40:49Z aeth: Still identical disassembly in SBCL. In fact, all four functions (I called them foo, bar, foobar, and barfoo) have 100% identical disassemblies in SBCL.
2017-12-27T23:41:17Z _death: (not (eq x nil))
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2017-12-27T23:41:45Z aeth: Wow, not one of these has outsmarted SBCL so far.
2017-12-27T23:42:10Z aeth: Some of them might mess with other compilers, though.
2017-12-27T23:43:08Z makomo: nice
2017-12-27T23:43:33Z aeth: for the lazy: (if x t nil) (and x t) (if x t) (when x t) (not (not x)) (not (null x)) (not (eq x nil))
2017-12-27T23:43:58Z aeth: with the first being idiomatic
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2017-12-27T23:44:28Z _death: (let ((m (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash nil m) nil) (defun bool (x) (values (gethash x m t))))
2017-12-27T23:45:15Z aeth: That's going to fool SBCL because you're using a mutable data structure and it's not that sophisticated... I think. Let's see
2017-12-27T23:45:51Z Fare: rme: not CL, but OCaml, but Tezos FRANCE is recruiting.
2017-12-27T23:47:06Z Fare: sjl: ASDF needs a new maintainer... but I don't know anyone paying for ASDF maintenance at the moment.
2017-12-27T23:47:19Z mfiano: Fare: He's not here
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2017-12-27T23:48:09Z _death: aeth: (defun bool (x) (case x ((nil) nil) (t t))) seems to give slightly worse results
2017-12-27T23:48:47Z aeth: _death: I get identical results. Which CL are you using?
2017-12-27T23:48:57Z _death: "1.4.2.279-50cfd41e0"
2017-12-27T23:49:01Z aeth: I'm on SBCL 1.3.18 atm
2017-12-27T23:49:05Z aeth: did SBCL regress?
2017-12-27T23:49:22Z _death: aeth: it's one more instruction
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2017-12-27T23:50:04Z aeth: _death: I get identical results, as in 100% identical except "disassembly for BOOL" instead of "disassembly for FOO" and a different origin
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2017-12-27T23:51:25Z _death: aeth: https://gist.github.com/death/665262a6585d68356095adc28c094f26
2017-12-27T23:53:17Z oleo: (nil) is not the same as nil
2017-12-27T23:53:33Z _death: oleo: right, that's why I use (nil)..
2017-12-27T23:53:35Z aeth: _death: I always get the long one, and in fact have 39 bytes
2017-12-27T23:54:03Z aeth: So you have an optimization that I don't have, I guess
2017-12-27T23:54:04Z _death: aeth: so it got better, but not for all CASEs :)
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2017-12-27T23:54:36Z aeth: MOV MOV CMP MOV MOV CMOVEQ MOV CLC POP RET BREAK
2017-12-27T23:55:06Z oleo: dramatic dance
2017-12-27T23:55:07Z aeth: Similar to your long one's MOV MOV MOV CMP MOV CMOVEQ MOV CLC POP RET BREAK
2017-12-27T23:55:08Z jasom: CMP MOV CMOVEQ MOV MOV CLC POP RET BREAK
2017-12-27T23:55:09Z oleo: lol
2017-12-27T23:55:56Z jasom: (disassemble (lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3)))(when x t))) is what you want, I think
2017-12-27T23:56:27Z aeth: 32 bytes
2017-12-27T23:56:43Z aeth: CMP MOV MOV CMOVEQ MOV MOV CLC POP RET BREAK
2017-12-27T23:56:59Z aeth: So... a MOV got eliminated after 1.3.18
2017-12-27T23:57:00Z mfiano: aeth, no regression: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/20b05bed9fe971de14085b89e13a9de6
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2017-12-27T23:57:45Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/death/665262a6585d68356095adc28c094f26#gistcomment-2305646
2017-12-27T23:58:17Z aeth: switching to roswell so I can use the latest SBCL...
2017-12-27T23:58:20Z _death: with speed 3 it's seemingly worse for bool-if :/
2017-12-27T23:58:46Z aeth: definitely shorter. CMP MOV CMOVEQ MOV MOV CLC POP RET BREAK and 26 bytes with the disassemble lambda version
2017-12-27T23:58:47Z jasom: mfiano: that diassemble will discard all but the last calculation, I think, right?
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2017-12-27T23:59:34Z jasom: 26 bytes for (disassemble (lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3)))(if x t nil))) here
2017-12-28T00:00:14Z _death: 35 bytes.. oh, I forgot that I also have (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3))) in .sbclrc
2017-12-28T00:00:35Z aeth: ah
2017-12-28T00:02:31Z _death: it doesn't matter much anyway, since you'd likely also want to declaim that function inline
2017-12-28T00:03:00Z jasom: _death: I think we were using the disassembly of the lambda for a proxy of the inline code that would be generated
2017-12-28T00:03:17Z jasom: obv. if it can determine that x is non-nill, then it should be even shorter
2017-12-28T00:04:03Z jasom: 13 bytes in that case
2017-12-28T00:04:05Z _death: jasom: I'm thinking about some peephole optimizer or something mutilating it into something better
2017-12-28T00:04:29Z jasom: 11 bytes with safety-0 and (type (not null) x)
2017-12-28T00:04:35Z jasom: MOV MOV CLC POP RET
2017-12-28T00:05:14Z jasom: the CLC would probably go away when inlined
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2017-12-28T00:05:29Z _death: the POP/RET as well..
2017-12-28T00:05:38Z aeth: nice
2017-12-28T00:06:22Z aeth: one way to benchmark more directly would be to compare two functions, one that calls an inline version and one that calls a notinline version
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2017-12-28T00:25:58Z pfdietz: When I want to convert generalized boolean to actual boolean I use (not (not ...))
2017-12-28T00:26:14Z Xach_: same
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2017-12-28T00:28:37Z pjb: I use (bool generalized-boolean).
2017-12-28T00:29:13Z pjb: or I use negative logic: (defun equiv (a b) (eq (not a) (not b)))
2017-12-28T00:29:37Z dlowe: I use (not (null ...))
2017-12-28T00:30:14Z pjb: (declaim (inline bool)) (defun bool (x) (if x 'nil 't))
2017-12-28T00:30:28Z pjb: Using not or null is relying on the compiler to optimize it out.
2017-12-28T00:31:15Z dlowe: so is using an inline declaration. ;) but yes, that's less smarts required.
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2017-12-28T00:36:11Z _death: aeth: https://gist.github.com/death/665262a6585d68356095adc28c094f26#gistcomment-2305664 silly code for comparing functions :)
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2017-12-28T00:41:22Z _death: pjb: your consequent and alternative are reversed ;)
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2017-12-28T00:43:53Z jasom: oh, if anybody has tips for getting SBCL to generate CMOV rather than CMP/JNE, let me know.  I have a portable utf-8 decoder that is slower than SBCL's built-in only because of that difference.
2017-12-28T00:45:06Z _death: bet #sbcl can help ;)
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2017-12-28T00:55:06Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Are you still awake?
2017-12-28T00:55:18Z jmercouris: Can someone please remind me what the memo syntax is?
2017-12-28T00:55:39Z _death: /msg minion help
2017-12-28T00:55:40Z pjb: _death: oops;
2017-12-28T00:56:05Z pjb: -->  minion: memo for foo: message
2017-12-28T00:56:27Z AeroNotix: jmercouris: yes
2017-12-28T00:56:29Z jmercouris: minion: memo for AeroNotix: Is javascript execution working within cl-webkit-2?
2017-12-28T00:56:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell AeroNotix when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-12-28T00:56:36Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Ah, there you are :D
2017-12-28T00:56:46Z AeroNotix: I was able to execute javascript yes
2017-12-28T00:56:46Z minion: AeroNotix, memo from jmercouris: Is javascript execution working within cl-webkit-2?
2017-12-28T00:56:49Z jmercouris: well, you see the message, I'm getting really close to completing the GTK port, looking at your code has been very enlightening
2017-12-28T00:56:58Z AeroNotix: Glad to hear :)
2017-12-28T00:57:02Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Ok, great, thank you
2017-12-28T00:57:07Z AeroNotix: I remember I had JS execution working yes
2017-12-28T00:57:16Z jmercouris: I hope to have an alpha ready within the week, so get ready :)
2017-12-28T00:57:26Z AeroNotix: wow that's awesome!
2017-12-28T00:57:29Z AeroNotix: nice
2017-12-28T00:57:35Z jmercouris: I'm brimming with ideas, I just wish I had more energy
2017-12-28T00:57:44Z AeroNotix: post christmas lethargy?
2017-12-28T00:57:46Z jmercouris: Also, GTK is really easy compared to Cocoa, just sayin :P
2017-12-28T00:57:59Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: No, I just don't have a lot of energy in general, I sleep like 10 hours a day or so
2017-12-28T00:58:22Z AeroNotix: Just not a fan of GTK in all honesty. I think it's because of the heavy old style C naming conventions and (IMHO) crappy docs that continually put me off it
2017-12-28T00:58:30Z AeroNotix: and strange conventions for doing simple operations
2017-12-28T00:58:33Z jmercouris: The docs are really shitty, I'll give you that
2017-12-28T00:58:36Z jmercouris: the conventions are strange
2017-12-28T00:58:40Z jmercouris: but nothing next to cocoa lol
2017-12-28T00:58:42Z AeroNotix: again, probably stemming from the fact it's written in C
2017-12-28T00:58:46Z jmercouris: btw, I saw that you use a notebook for the tabs
2017-12-28T00:58:55Z AeroNotix: I can't remember now, notebook sounds familiar though
2017-12-28T00:59:02Z jmercouris: can one easily add and remove views from GTK without redrawing the whole display?
2017-12-28T00:59:14Z jmercouris: Like I want to make a sort of container view to house the active buffer
2017-12-28T00:59:23Z AeroNotix: hmm, I think I've dropped any associated memory with that :)
2017-12-28T00:59:27Z jmercouris: but I don't want to have to add all buffers beforehand to the view, it should be possible to add and rmove them right?
2017-12-28T00:59:39Z jmercouris: Ah, well, I'll find out soon enough then :D
2017-12-28T00:59:46Z jmercouris: I'm really excited
2017-12-28T01:00:01Z jmercouris: I was worried that GTK was going to be a huge pain, and it is because I'm developing in a VM, but programmatically speaking it is quite okay
2017-12-28T01:00:06Z AeroNotix: You can dynamically add new webkit views to anything really. I think there's a way to hide them from being drawn as well, but it's all long old memory
2017-12-28T01:00:09Z jmercouris: Keep in mind, what will be ready in a week will likely be VERY alpha
2017-12-28T01:00:13Z AeroNotix: I get that ;)
2017-12-28T01:00:23Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: Yeah, they can be hidden automagically, they must be told to be rendered
2017-12-28T01:00:29Z AeroNotix: something like that
2017-12-28T01:00:47Z jmercouris: I guess it is not such a big deal if I have to add new webviews to some magic container, I'm just worried about removing them later
2017-12-28T01:00:50Z jmercouris: and garbage collection
2017-12-28T01:00:57Z jmercouris: I guess when that bridge comes, some linux user can debug it for me :P
2017-12-28T01:01:10Z AeroNotix: Yes, I had issues with garbage collection and doing dynamic allocation of webkit views
2017-12-28T01:01:18Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's what I'm worried about
2017-12-28T01:01:21Z AeroNotix: and moving them/keeping them in a continuous buffer.
2017-12-28T01:01:30Z jmercouris: the bindings for cl-webkit-2 are of course incomplete in this regard
2017-12-28T01:01:35Z jmercouris: there is supposed to be some sort of cleanup functionality
2017-12-28T01:01:50Z jmercouris: like "prepare-to-close" where it collects system resources, and then some call to dealloc or whatever
2017-12-28T01:01:54Z AeroNotix: I don't recall now but I seem to remember coming across a more automatically generated set of bindings for webkit-2
2017-12-28T01:02:09Z AeroNotix: which was far more complete than the partially manual set of bindings
2017-12-28T01:02:10Z jmercouris: yeah, joachim was talking about some generation tools for making the bindings actually
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2017-12-28T01:02:29Z jmercouris: there was an issue opened, and when I emailed him, he mentioned it again, so it is probably a good path
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2017-12-28T01:02:40Z AeroNotix: I remember joachim being very busy with school though
2017-12-28T01:02:45Z jmercouris: or at least, he believes it is a good path, and I trust him
2017-12-28T01:03:01Z jmercouris: yeah, he is quite busy, but if he can just give me some guidance, I might be able to pick it up
2017-12-28T01:03:20Z jmercouris: At any rate, memory leaks or not, I think I'll have an alpha VERY soon
2017-12-28T01:03:26Z jmercouris: *fingers crossed/knock on wood*
2017-12-28T01:03:33Z AeroNotix: I can handle memory leaks :)
2017-12-28T01:03:45Z AeroNotix: right now I'm balls deep in a memory leak with Erlang
2017-12-28T01:03:53Z jmercouris: I could have a webkit pool or something, at least as an interim solution
2017-12-28T01:04:08Z jmercouris: the implementation of the GTK stuff is opaque to nEXT via an API, so it can be  improved REALLY easily
2017-12-28T01:04:18Z jmercouris: Ah, Erlang, the language that I'm not sure how to pronounce in real life
2017-12-28T01:04:23Z AeroNotix: good hide away the gtk
2017-12-28T01:04:27Z AeroNotix: just like "er lang"
2017-12-28T01:04:35Z jmercouris: Yeah but what does "er" sound like?
2017-12-28T01:04:35Z AeroNotix: er as in ergo
2017-12-28T01:04:42Z jmercouris: That carries multiple pronounciations as well
2017-12-28T01:04:51Z AeroNotix: er as in her
2017-12-28T01:04:51Z jmercouris: some people say orgo, airgo, urgo
2017-12-28T01:04:52Z jmercouris: etc
2017-12-28T01:05:00Z AeroNotix: no, Americans pronounce it a million different ways :)
2017-12-28T01:05:14Z jmercouris: Cogito ergo sum
2017-12-28T01:05:22Z jmercouris: Anyways, thanks for your quick feedback
2017-12-28T01:05:31Z jmercouris: What's generally a good time to find you on IRC?
2017-12-28T01:05:31Z AeroNotix: no worries, I was awake any way
2017-12-28T01:05:43Z AeroNotix: well, sometimes I don't glance over at the tab for a couple of hours/days
2017-12-28T01:05:55Z AeroNotix: oh twitter or email is better
2017-12-28T01:05:58Z AeroNotix: @AeroNotix on twitter
2017-12-28T01:07:33Z jmercouris: pjb: Thanks for the syntax example
2017-12-28T01:07:44Z jmercouris: _death: didn't know it was a full help prompt and everything, useful to know as well, thank you
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2017-12-28T01:08:50Z jmercouris: Is there an index of the minion advice numbers?
2017-12-28T01:09:02Z pjb: AFAIK, only in the sources.
2017-12-28T01:09:49Z jmercouris: hmm, ok
2017-12-28T01:11:34Z jmercouris: Any reason they start at such a high number?
2017-12-28T01:11:49Z earl-ducaine: Hi Lisponians!  I'm remembering that it's a bad idea to use defun in a non-toplevel form.  But I'm not remember why or what I should use instead.  Anyone have anything thoughts?  CLHS doesn't seem to have anything to say about it directly.
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2017-12-28T01:12:13Z jmercouris: earl-ducaine: Is it even possible to use defun in a non-toplevel form?
2017-12-28T01:12:18Z Bike: it is.
2017-12-28T01:12:21Z jmercouris: I guess one could use it in a progn
2017-12-28T01:12:27Z jmercouris: but I mean can one nest defun?
2017-12-28T01:12:34Z Bike: sure.
2017-12-28T01:12:36Z pjb: earl-ducaine: you can use it, but if it's not in toplevel, then the compiler cannot notice that you defined a function. This is the main drawback.
2017-12-28T01:12:41Z Bike: being in a progn is still top level.
2017-12-28T01:12:43Z pjb: earl-ducaine: so you can declare it yourself.
2017-12-28T01:12:55Z jmercouris: (defun funcy (a b c) (defun funcx (b c a) (funcx a b c)))?
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2017-12-28T01:13:04Z Bike: but yeah, earl-ducaine, e.g. later code might not be aware that there was a function defined earlier so you get an undefined function warning, kind of thing.
2017-12-28T01:13:06Z pjb: (declaim (function foo)) (let ((x 0)) (defun foo () (incf x)))  (defun g () (list (foo) (foo) (foo)))
2017-12-28T01:13:07Z Bike: jmercouris: yeah that's fine.
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2017-12-28T01:13:13Z Bike: jmercouris: kind of weird, obviously.
2017-12-28T01:13:32Z jmercouris: Bike: Interesting, then why do lambdas exist?
2017-12-28T01:13:51Z Bike: because you don't always need or want functions to be globally accessible through names
2017-12-28T01:14:04Z jmercouris: Why not just use a throwaway name?
2017-12-28T01:14:12Z AeroNotix: It'll still be accessible by that name
2017-12-28T01:14:12Z jmercouris: Seems like redundant functionality to me
2017-12-28T01:14:12Z Bike: why use a throwaway name?
2017-12-28T01:14:32Z jmercouris: I feel like it should be part of the defun spec that you can declare anonymous functions
2017-12-28T01:14:41Z Bike: what would that even mean?
2017-12-28T01:14:42Z jmercouris: like it should just be (defun (arg1 arg2))
2017-12-28T01:14:44Z jmercouris: instead of lambda
2017-12-28T01:14:46Z Bike: how are you supposed to call it?
2017-12-28T01:14:54Z jmercouris: A function without a name
2017-12-28T01:14:57Z jmercouris: an anonymous function
2017-12-28T01:15:02Z Bike: what defun does is make a binding from a name to a function.
2017-12-28T01:15:04Z jmercouris: is that not effectively what a lambda is?
2017-12-28T01:15:07Z Bike: would this make some kind of binding with no name?
2017-12-28T01:15:24Z jmercouris: what does defun stand for? define function?
2017-12-28T01:15:25Z Bike: and if so, what's the point of having such a binding
2017-12-28T01:15:29Z Bike: define function, yes.
2017-12-28T01:15:30Z jmercouris: maybe I misunderstand the point of defun
2017-12-28T01:15:32Z earl-ducaine: Ah, basically the same answer as for my question yesterday regarding defvar.
2017-12-28T01:15:38Z pfdietz: DEF... operators create connections between names and things.
2017-12-28T01:15:44Z jmercouris: so if you define a function with no name, is that not effectively a lambda?
2017-12-28T01:15:55Z Bike: You're not thinking about what "define" means.
2017-12-28T01:16:20Z Bike: For defun as exists, "define" means that some name is associated with some function.
2017-12-28T01:16:29Z Bike: If you remove the name, what do you have left? No "definition" per se.
2017-12-28T01:16:30Z jmercouris: So anytime we are doing defining, we are doing assignment?
2017-12-28T01:16:45Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/f5ab0a063a7fe8953178d1b569587a96
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2017-12-28T01:16:55Z Bike: Yes, the minimum functionality of defun is basically (defun foo (x) x) => (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda (x) x))
2017-12-28T01:17:05Z earl-ducaine: Bike: it's a poor mans objects system, i.e. create the binding at run-time based on whether you're running in a Uinx env (CLX) or in an Mac env.
2017-12-28T01:17:06Z Bike: => being macroexpansion
2017-12-28T01:17:17Z pjb: jmercouris: actually (defmacro defun (name lambda-list &body declarations-and-body) `(progn (setf (fdefinition ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list (block ,name ,@declarations-and-body))) (declaim (function ,name)) ',name))
2017-12-28T01:17:24Z pjb: jmercouris: defun is defined using lambda!
2017-12-28T01:17:35Z AeroNotix: earl-ducaine: there are reader macros to define functions based on platform
2017-12-28T01:17:39Z Bike: oh, yes, it returns the name too
2017-12-28T01:17:42Z jmercouris: pjb: That absolutely blows my mind
2017-12-28T01:17:58Z jmercouris: but it makes complete sense now that I'm thinking about it for the first time
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2017-12-28T01:18:44Z jmercouris: I always envisioned defun as a special form for declaring a function, but now I see that it is for associating a lambda with a name
2017-12-28T01:19:31Z jmercouris: Bike: pjb: As always, thank you for the education
2017-12-28T01:19:42Z Bike: mhm
2017-12-28T01:19:44Z aeth: It's more obvious in Scheme, where (define (foo x) x) is just syntactic sugar over (define foo (lambda (x) x))
2017-12-28T01:19:53Z aeth: CL... adds a few more complicating factors there
2017-12-28T01:20:37Z aeth: I think most of it is because it's a lisp-2
2017-12-28T01:21:04Z AeroNotix: I actually thought lambda would be a special form
2017-12-28T01:21:08Z AeroNotix: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm#clspecialops
2017-12-28T01:22:57Z dmiles: is it just awol?
2017-12-28T01:23:09Z aeth: hmm... it's implementation-specific, e.g. (macroexpand-1 `(defun foo (x) x))
2017-12-28T01:23:58Z AeroNotix: ,(+ 1 1)
2017-12-28T01:24:05Z AeroNotix: oh that bot is in #clojure
2017-12-28T01:24:24Z AeroNotix: anyway, back to beating erlang around the head with gdb
2017-12-28T01:24:26Z dmiles: and backquote might be missing from that list?
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2017-12-28T01:29:51Z Bike: backquote is not a special operator.
2017-12-28T01:30:09Z Bike: it's not even an operator, necessarily
2017-12-28T01:30:34Z Bike: and while lambda isn't a special operator, the symbol LAMBDA has a special meaning to the FUNCTION special operator in a way that can be conceptualized as a kind of special operator.
2017-12-28T01:30:59Z jmercouris: Everytime you guys talk, I remember how little I know
2017-12-28T01:31:41Z dmiles: backquote would not have entered my mind had quote not been an been a special operator
2017-12-28T01:42:13Z jasom: man read-byte is poorly optimized on sbcl; slurping a stream with read-byte is slower than slurping a utf-8 stream with read-char...
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2017-12-28T01:46:10Z earl-ducaine: It's been up for a while.  (last April) But in case you haven't seen it, the old GigaMos k-machine emulator along with all the associated LMI branch Lisp Machine code has been posted on bitsavers
2017-12-28T01:46:11Z earl-ducaine: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/LMI/
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2017-12-28T01:47:32Z jasom: If anybody hasn't been able to figure out how to do X with clack, PRs and Feature requests for my tutorial are accepted here: https://github.com/jasom/clack-tutorial/blob/src/pages/getting-started-with-clack.org
2017-12-28T01:47:53Z jasom: (pretty version here: https://jasom.github.io/clack-tutorial/pages/getting-started-with-clack/)
2017-12-28T01:49:25Z AeroNotix: Is it just me who isn't a fan of multiple values
2017-12-28T01:49:41Z AeroNotix: Why isn't env a class
2017-12-28T01:49:55Z AeroNotix: rather than just a blob of VALUES
2017-12-28T01:50:07Z jasom: AeroNotix: it's a plist, not multiple values, FWIW
2017-12-28T01:50:51Z jasom: There is zero good reason that I can think of for it to be a class, since there is an infinite variation in which keys might be present in it...
2017-12-28T01:51:07Z jasom: and middle-ware may add or remove "slots"
2017-12-28T01:51:34Z AeroNotix: oh missed the &keys
2017-12-28T01:51:40Z AeroNotix: &key*
2017-12-28T01:52:16Z jasom: plus right above, it has a print of the environment and calls it a plist ...
2017-12-28T01:52:51Z AeroNotix: local time: 3am :)
2017-12-28T01:53:00Z jasom: AeroNotix: fair enough :)
2017-12-28T01:54:02Z jasom: but yes a list of values with no structure is stupid, particularly since defstruct lets you define a tagged list of values...
2017-12-28T01:54:52Z AeroNotix: I've used bare VALUES before but always felt odd using it.
2017-12-28T01:55:04Z AeroNotix: It doesn't seem useful compared to other similar features
2017-12-28T01:57:15Z jasom: values *is* useful
2017-12-28T01:57:19Z jasom: e.g. like what floor does
2017-12-28T01:57:41Z jasom: where there is one value that you will almost always want, but a second value that you only sometimes want.  Plus it avoids consing on most implementations
2017-12-28T01:58:11Z aeth: values is a nice way to write pure functions where you would otherwise use a very short list or vector that conses to do the same thing, evne if you need the 2nd, 3rd, etc., values.
2017-12-28T01:58:15Z aeth: s/evne/even/
2017-12-28T01:58:55Z aeth: Using it a lot will probably add an overhead of maybe one instruction, but it gives you pure functions for "free"
2017-12-28T01:59:35Z jasom: did they ever figure out a way to implement it efficiently in wasm?  There was a tempest in a teapot about that a few years back...
2017-12-28T01:59:49Z aeth: (It's not really free, but afaik you pay the cost for efficient multiple return values whether you use them or not. But you do need to implement support for them at the compiler level.)
2017-12-28T01:59:56Z aeth: jasom: Probably not. wasm is for C++
2017-12-28T02:00:08Z aeth: If something isn't C++, people don't care.
2017-12-28T02:00:32Z aeth: There are lots of cool things you can do in languages that C++ can't do... good luck getting those efficiently implemented in wasm.
2017-12-28T02:03:20Z mfiano: Can anyone tell me why uiop:safe-read-file-form coerces floats to doubles (d0 suffix), as compared to uiop:read-file-form which does not?
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2017-12-28T02:06:55Z mfiano: Looks like it's binding *read-default-float-format* 'double-float, but why is it 'unsafe' not to?
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2017-12-28T02:09:54Z Bike: perhaps it's part of the standardized syntax.
2017-12-28T02:09:56Z mfiano: I mean it doesn't stop the reader from coming across something like 1d999
2017-12-28T02:11:56Z mfiano: I just tracked down a bug that stems from this function coercing all my floats to doubles. Looks like I'll have to just safely read on my own. I just don't understand how not coercing is unsafe
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2017-12-28T02:13:17Z Bike: wait, coercing?
2017-12-28T02:13:32Z Bike: i don't think i understand. do you need long floats or something?
2017-12-28T02:13:37Z aeth: if *read-default-float-format* is 'double-float, you can still get single-float from 1.0f0, 2.0f0, etc.
2017-12-28T02:14:07Z mfiano: No, I need my floats read verbatim from a DSL file, and 1.0 not changed to 1.0d0
2017-12-28T02:14:30Z aeth: I never assume *read-default-float-format* because that has bitten me before, in source code!
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2017-12-28T02:14:44Z Bike: there is no "verbatim". 1.0 can mean any one depending on how it's read. single-float is just the default binding.
2017-12-28T02:15:01Z Bike: perhaps you could petition fare or whoever mantains uiop to let you provide the float format yourself, though.
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2017-12-28T02:15:40Z mfiano: Is 'the default binding' part of the standard, or most implementations?
2017-12-28T02:16:02Z aeth: It's always single-float initially. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm
2017-12-28T02:16:08Z aeth: But it's a global so you can't rely on it always being single-float
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2017-12-28T02:18:18Z mfiano: Thanks. I guess it makes sense to change my machine-generated dsl data format over using my own reader function.
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2017-12-28T02:19:42Z aeth: If I had to read numbers as single-float without the "f0" suffix, I'd probably do what they do in the example to make sure it's single-float and then read it, i.e. (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'single-float)) ...)
2017-12-28T02:19:57Z aeth: Unless the numbers have a different syntax than CL's
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2017-12-28T02:20:33Z Bike: the issue is that this uiop function specificaklly binds it to double.
2017-12-28T02:20:41Z aeth: yes, that won't fix that for uiop
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2017-12-28T02:20:45Z aeth: It should be configurable
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2017-12-28T02:21:03Z mfiano: It makes total sense to change the file data instead, since these files may be used by other developers too.
2017-12-28T02:21:14Z aeth: e.g. I turn off *read-eval* but I make it configurable just in case someone is using that feature for some reason.
2017-12-28T02:21:54Z mfiano: ie; unless i write a user api for parsing these files, rather than just provide them for users to do whatever, i should encode the data in an unambiguous method
2017-12-28T02:21:55Z aeth: s/I turn off/I always turn off/
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2017-12-28T02:26:31Z Fare: Bike,  discussed changing the *read-default-float-format* in 2014 or so, and the overwhelming reaction was that ASDF should stick to the standard.
2017-12-28T02:26:48Z Fare: That said, see the document in my "syntax-control" branch
2017-12-28T02:27:17Z Fare: rpg, do you have time to review the syntax-control branch?
2017-12-28T02:27:29Z mfiano: The question is, what would be the best way to write out 1.0f0 to a file, such that it is not read and then written as 1.0 ?
2017-12-28T02:27:46Z Fare: rpg, after it gets merged (or rejected), the document should be updated to reflect the current situation and current plans.
2017-12-28T02:28:22Z Fare: mfiano, bind *read-default-float-format* yourself inside a with-{safe,standard}-io-syntax
2017-12-28T02:29:09Z mfiano: I am talking about writing literally 1.0f0 to an output stream.
2017-12-28T02:29:17Z Fare: what about it?
2017-12-28T02:29:28Z Fare: which do you want? make it happen with suitable bindings
2017-12-28T02:29:31Z mfiano: When I tried, it just writes 1.0
2017-12-28T02:29:36Z Fare: and?
2017-12-28T02:29:48Z mfiano: and I want the file to contain the explicit f0 suffices
2017-12-28T02:29:56Z Fare: until you state what you want, no one (not even yourself) can help you achieve it.
2017-12-28T02:29:58Z aeth: mfiano: You could change the default float format to double-float before writing
2017-12-28T02:30:04Z aeth: mfiano: that will force 1.0f0
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2017-12-28T02:30:31Z aeth: (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'double-float)) (write 1.0)) => 1.0f0
2017-12-28T02:30:35Z aeth: If you're not mixing floats, it will work
2017-12-28T02:30:50Z aeth: The only time it won't work is when single-float is double-float.
2017-12-28T02:31:03Z aeth: (or if you have double-floats in your code, too)
2017-12-28T02:32:32Z Fare: see also long-float
2017-12-28T02:32:44Z Fare: and short-float
2017-12-28T02:32:47Z aeth: I tend to just write my own custom writer, though. It's hard to get the output just the way I want it.
2017-12-28T02:32:54Z Fare: which may or may not be supported by your implementation.
2017-12-28T02:33:29Z Fare: READ and WRITE are very cool, but ultimately are not portable.
2017-12-28T02:33:37Z aeth: Fare: If short-float is single-float, then it'll write as 1.0, not 1.0f0. It's probably safe to assume a separate single-float and double-float. Conforming implementations that don't do this will probably be broken by some dependency before they get to the unique code.
2017-12-28T02:34:16Z Fare: too many knobs end up being not so nice :-/
2017-12-28T02:34:20Z aeth: It's very easy for some niche Lisp to be broken by a dependency or a dependency's dependency.
2017-12-28T02:36:15Z aeth: As far as read and write not being portable... ime read tends to work more or less as I want it, but write is trickier because of where it decides to newline long s-expressions.
2017-12-28T02:40:44Z aeth: Often when I write a custom reader, I'll try to rely on the built-in read where I can get away with using it.
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2017-12-28T03:06:46Z Fare: aeth, builtin read is ok for things you trust 100%
2017-12-28T03:06:59Z Fare: horrible to expose to user input
2017-12-28T03:07:09Z Fare: not just #.
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2017-12-28T03:19:42Z aeth: Fair point. I've mostly used read for things like configuration files and programming languages, where the user is essentially trusted.
2017-12-28T03:20:28Z aeth: I guess for things like an IRC bot, you'd need to be really careful
2017-12-28T03:22:23Z mfiano: How does careful prevent reading something like 1d999 ?
2017-12-28T03:22:55Z mfiano: I don't think even with-default-io-syntax will help there
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2017-12-28T03:23:37Z mfiano: Also sorry...connection issues, so I missed some of the conversation I prompted.
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2017-12-28T03:26:20Z aeth: "1d999" doesn't seem problematic. It should error on all popular implementations.
2017-12-28T03:27:51Z jasom: aeth: almost all architectures introduced after 1990 support at least 3 return values with zero overhead (and 8 is not unusual) in hardware; there is no cost to the caller if it doesn't use them, and the cost to the callee is only an extra register store (to marke the RV count)
2017-12-28T03:28:21Z aeth: jasom: unfortunately, I often use 4.
2017-12-28T03:28:34Z aeth: that is nice to know, though
2017-12-28T03:29:24Z jasom: aeth: well Power, ARM and MIPS can each do at least 8 (though the common ABIs often don't define that many, it is 100% compatible to use all caller-save registers)
2017-12-28T03:30:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-28T03:32:33Z jasom: x86-64 ABI specifies 7 volatile registers, so 6 return values could be done cheaply; I'm not sure if sbcl does this though...
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2017-12-28T03:34:24Z jasom: looks like SBCL on'y uses 4 of them for return values, and one is a count, so 4 will require stack access
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2017-12-28T03:53:51Z cryptomarauder: Hey beach
2017-12-28T03:59:15Z cryptomarauder: mfiano: I am a string whore myself which may not work on some systems applications but for keeping the format good on something like 1.0f0 unaltered I throw it in a string like a do tortillas. Otherwise if it's not dealing with standardized definitions which would endure the data integrity in your output you just can't be sure in a portable way.
2017-12-28T04:00:24Z cryptomarauder: Luckily cl isn't as dogmatic as scheme etc about types and mutability
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2017-12-28T04:02:19Z lildragon: Hello
2017-12-28T04:02:42Z lildragon: Is there a good book/guide to learn (Common ?) Lisp that is straight to the point?
2017-12-28T04:02:55Z lildragon: Learn Lisp The Hard Way seems to be down.
2017-12-28T04:03:12Z mfiano: minion: tell lildragon about PCL
2017-12-28T04:03:12Z minion: lildragon: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-12-28T04:03:22Z lildragon: And Practical Common Lisp is too verbose. I don't care about your dad, I don't need you to repeat the same idea five times for me to learn how a list works.
2017-12-28T04:03:25Z mfiano: cryptomarauder: thanks. solved
2017-12-28T04:03:28Z lildragon: I want something concise and on point. :)
2017-12-28T04:03:32Z parjanya: what’s the smart way of getting just some values that get-decoded-time outputs? if I use multiple-value-bind it gives me a warning if I don’t use all the variables... I thought of using multiple-value-list and then selecting just the parts I want, but isn’t there a better way? something like (grab (0 2 4) (get-decoded-time)) to output only the first, the third and the fifth values
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2017-12-28T04:03:48Z lildragon: mfiano: Thanks, see my problem with the book, two chapters in and I am already bored. :P
2017-12-28T04:04:21Z mfiano: lildragon: That's ok, because the book is very short, and you won't find another like it.
2017-12-28T04:04:46Z lildragon: mfiano: *sigh* I guess I have to deal with it then
2017-12-28T04:04:55Z lildragon: too chatty for my liking. Just give me the bloody meat.
2017-12-28T04:05:22Z lildragon: "A single record, however, does not a database make. You need some larger construct to hold the records. Again, for simplicity's sake, a list seems like a good choice."
2017-12-28T04:05:27Z mfiano: You could start with Common Lisp Recipes, which is a bunch of concise "recipes", but it is designed to be a companion to PCL.
2017-12-28T04:05:33Z mfiano: So not sure how well that will go :)
2017-12-28T04:05:47Z lildragon: So many words, so completely useless for anyone worth their salt.
2017-12-28T04:06:02Z cadence: any thoughts on starting with land of lisp?
2017-12-28T04:06:12Z lildragon: ^ interested too.
2017-12-28T04:06:15Z beach: clhs nth-value
2017-12-28T04:06:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2017-12-28T04:06:27Z beach: parjanya: ↑
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2017-12-28T04:11:14Z beach: lildragon: Just read the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2017-12-28T04:12:52Z parjanya: beach: thanks! is this decent, (list (nth-value 5 (get-decoded-time)) (nth-value 4 (get-decoded-time)) (nth-value 3 (get-decoded-time))), or would be better to collect the values in a list and then extracting what I want from it?
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2017-12-28T04:13:16Z beach: parjanya: The latter.
2017-12-28T04:13:49Z aeth: parjanya: Why not use multiple-value-bind?
2017-12-28T04:14:00Z pfdietz: Was going to say.
2017-12-28T04:14:19Z parjanya: aeth: I would bind some variables and not use them, and get a warning
2017-12-28T04:14:22Z aeth: And for the things you don't use, just do this so the compiler doesn't warn you: (declare (ignore foo bar baz))
2017-12-28T04:14:34Z beach: parjanya: Declare them IGNORE.
2017-12-28T04:14:42Z parjanya: ohh, that exists
2017-12-28T04:14:48Z beach: clhs ignore
2017-12-28T04:14:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm
2017-12-28T04:14:50Z parjanya: I tried nil :-$
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2017-12-28T04:16:11Z pfdietz: Also IGNORABLE, but that's mostly for macro writers.
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2017-12-28T04:16:48Z aeth: Is there a legitimate use for ignorable outside of a macro?
2017-12-28T04:16:57Z parjanya: thanks : )
2017-12-28T04:18:33Z pfdietz: Might use it for variables that will just be used in, say, debugging or logging statements that may or not actually be compiled (due to #-/#+ or macros).
2017-12-28T04:19:14Z aeth: good point
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2017-12-28T04:43:29Z lildragon: beach: It looks really good in terms of the content, the user interface is monstrosity though.
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2017-12-28T04:45:18Z lildragon: beach: Couple of hours into finally committing to learn Lisp I see a common pattern across everything lisp related, there is a strong commitment in the early ages of computer human interaction (I avoid the term UX because that is too modern). :P
2017-12-28T04:56:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: lildragon: CLHS looks better when viewed with lynx ;)
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2017-12-28T05:05:28Z lildragon: fiddlerwoaroof: hahaha, only validating my point. :)
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2017-12-28T05:25:03Z lildragon: beach: I think it is not that bad after all, thanks for reminding me that it is not that long.
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2017-12-28T07:16:38Z cryptomarauder: Nice chat. You guys never quit being eager to help. I am such a lurker but I get so much with virtually no snark. Golden lol
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2017-12-28T09:58:18Z phoe: Can I trace (SETF FOO)? if yes, how?
2017-12-28T09:58:29Z beach: (trace (setf foo))
2017-12-28T09:59:25Z phoe: On SBCL: (trace (setf config)) ;;=> WARNING: (SETF CONFIG) is not a valid function name, not tracing.
2017-12-28T09:59:58Z phoe: where #'(setf config) ;;=> #<FUNCTION (COMMON-LISP:SETF CONFIG)>
2017-12-28T10:00:41Z beach: Works for me.
2017-12-28T10:01:06Z phoe: What is your SBCL version?
2017-12-28T10:01:43Z beach: 1.4.0
2017-12-28T10:01:49Z phoe: I'm on 1.4.2.
2017-12-28T10:01:56Z phoe: One second, I'll try to double-check.
2017-12-28T10:02:26Z Shinmera: phoe: Are you perchance in a cl+qt package?
2017-12-28T10:02:40Z Shinmera: because remember, CL+QT:SETF is not eq to CL:SETF
2017-12-28T10:02:47Z phoe: Shinmera: dlskgfjdlsgkj
2017-12-28T10:02:48Z phoe: thanks.
2017-12-28T10:03:34Z phoe: there, (trace (cl:setf config)) worked.
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2017-12-28T10:05:31Z beach: Why is it not the Common Lisp SETF?
2017-12-28T10:06:18Z Shinmera: It's been a while since I implemented it,  but I remember discussing the available options at the time and coming to the begrudging conclusion that a SETF "pre-processor" is the best way to go
2017-12-28T10:06:27Z Shinmera: Discussing them with you, that is
2017-12-28T10:06:41Z beach: What memory.
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2017-12-28T10:06:55Z Shinmera: It was something about the SETF facility not giving you access to a variable amount of multiple values, which I needed.
2017-12-28T10:07:06Z beach: I see.
2017-12-28T10:07:06Z phoe: AFAIK needs to be a custom one because of how Qtools hacks around the reader - only the symbols requested by the client code are generated, et cetera.
2017-12-28T10:07:16Z Shinmera: phoe: Nah
2017-12-28T10:07:21Z phoe: But again, it's compli---
2017-12-28T10:07:23Z phoe: Exactly.
2017-12-28T10:09:33Z Shinmera: Essentially (setf (q+:size foo) (values 400 500)) is read as (setf (q+ set-size foo) (values 400 500)), so in that case it needs two values, but let's say (setf (q+:rect foo) (values a b c d)) needs four and so forth.
2017-12-28T10:10:14Z Shinmera: Err, it's read as (setf (q+ size foo) (values 400 500))
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2017-12-28T10:10:35Z Shinmera: Anyhoot, the SETF wrapper turns that into (q+ set-size foo 400 500) or whatever else depending on the VALUES form.
2017-12-28T10:10:46Z Shinmera: Which is a gross workaround, but I still can't think of anything better.
2017-12-28T10:11:34Z Shinmera: You might think I could just specify like a hundred values or something expecting that no function call will ever need that many, but then you also never get any information from SETF about which values were actually passed and which weren't, so you can't compose the proper call.
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2017-12-28T11:01:09Z makomo: jasom: regarding that cl-json hash table thing from yesterday, are you sure that works?
2017-12-28T11:01:35Z makomo: because i keep getting an error from the internals of cl-json when the body of my *beginning-of-object-handler* is run
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2017-12-28T11:04:03Z makomo: "The value NIL is not of type CONS", in JSON::ACCUMULATOR-ADD-KEY
2017-12-28T11:04:28Z makomo: ohh hmm, i think i see why
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2017-12-28T11:13:01Z beach: I just hate that kind of error message.  It contains absolutely no information that is of value to even the most novice Common Lisp programmer.
2017-12-28T11:13:29Z phoe: Haha, I just got hit by a similar message an hour ago and spent thirty minutes debugging it.
2017-12-28T11:14:23Z Shinmera: Rust's compiler is pretty nice about error messages, but I don't know if you could replicate that kind of experience for run-time errors.
2017-12-28T11:14:32Z makomo: jasom: yup, my bad. i delayed the writing of your "to-keyword" and in *object-key-handler* just forwarded the call to the original handler, but that makes no sense because that handler expects all sorts of internal state to be already built (set up by *beginning-of-object-handler*, etc.)
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2017-12-28T11:16:16Z phoe: Roses are red,
2017-12-28T11:16:19Z phoe: A bird flaps its wing,
2017-12-28T11:16:28Z phoe: The value 14 is not of type STRING.
2017-12-28T11:16:30Z phoe ducks
2017-12-28T11:16:48Z beach: Ducks are birds, yes.
2017-12-28T11:17:06Z makomo: haha
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2017-12-28T15:22:35Z Xach_: Shinmera: i'm having an odd issue where i can't build qtools from a warm fasl cache due to VERBOSE symbol issues. i suspect it's a case where something builds the fasl with :verbose but then a subsequent load of the fasl is done without verbose.
2017-12-28T15:22:55Z Xach_: Shinmera: i can work around it on the build side, but wanted to let you know
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2017-12-28T15:24:37Z Shinmera: Yeah, I know
2017-12-28T15:24:57Z Shinmera: It's been a problem in the past, I still don't know of a good solution
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2017-12-28T15:27:17Z Shinmera once again wishes for optional dependencies
2017-12-28T15:27:31Z Xach_: I just updated my stuff to flag certain projects as requiring a cold fasl cache
2017-12-28T15:27:44Z Xach_: this is the second project that needs it recently
2017-12-28T15:28:08Z Shinmera: I can get rid of the Verbose uses, I think.
2017-12-28T15:28:34Z Shinmera: I doubt anyone but me ever actively used it
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2017-12-28T15:39:37Z Shinmera: I'll do that later tonight
2017-12-28T15:43:44Z pjb: phoe: (defmethod ensure-string ((x integer)) (prin1-to-string x))
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2017-12-28T15:48:43Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: magical optional dependencies are dangerous
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2017-12-28T15:49:04Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: In this case they just provide some debug info if a logging system is present
2017-12-28T15:49:08Z Shinmera: which seems perfectly fine to me
2017-12-28T15:49:39Z fe[nl]ix: since Quicklisp makes it easy to download all dependencies it makes no sense to resort to that kind of optimization
2017-12-28T15:49:47Z dim: make verbose into a proper feature, #+qtools-verbose or something?
2017-12-28T15:50:12Z dim: maybe feature names beling into packages even?
2017-12-28T15:50:14Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I don't want to force a dep that launches threads and stuff onto people that don't need it.
2017-12-28T15:51:21Z fe[nl]ix: then make it explicit
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2017-12-28T16:41:31Z antoszka: Guys, trying to fire up sbcl in shell with linedit (which I do sometimes, nvm the reasons), I'm now getting: http://wklej.org/id/3330582/ ← any hints where to look for problems? madeira-port quickloads without any issues in Slime.
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2017-12-28T16:44:08Z Xach_: antoszka: incompatible with latest asdf which is what sbcl 1.4.2 now ships
2017-12-28T16:44:13Z Xach_: antoszka: work in progress to fix
2017-12-28T16:44:24Z antoszka: ah, okay, I'll wait then, thanks.
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2017-12-28T16:46:24Z makomo_: what does "expanded" mean in "If the backquote syntax is nested, the innermost backquoted form should be expanded first."? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2017-12-28T16:46:58Z Zhivago: Consider (let ((a 1)) `(x ,a)) -> (x 1)
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2017-12-28T16:50:49Z makomo: Zhivago: is that all?
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2017-12-28T16:51:10Z Zhivago: Pretty much -- it's a form of substitution into a templae.
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2017-12-28T16:54:32Z makomo: Zhivago: so "expansion" here refers just to the process of "substitution". whether any substitutions are made or not is a matter of the level of quoting/unquoting done, right?
2017-12-28T16:55:15Z makomo: for example, ``(,,a2); (,a2) is the "innermost backquoted form" but the substitution process doesn't actually substitute any values
2017-12-28T16:55:18Z Zhivago: Yes, but you also have splices -- (let ((a '(1 2))) `(x ,@a)) -> (x 1 2)
2017-12-28T16:56:16Z makomo: true, but i thought "substitution" is somehow more clear, however "substitution" is also used only once on that page
2017-12-28T16:57:03Z Zhivago: Lisp also talks about macros in terms of expansion.
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2017-12-28T17:08:46Z rpg: Does anyone know how to refer to the currently inspected object using slime-inspector-eval?
2017-12-28T17:09:12Z rpg: The docstring isn't very helpful: "Evaluate an expression in the context of the inspected object."
2017-12-28T17:09:28Z rpg: is the inspected object bound to some name that I can use?
2017-12-28T17:09:56Z rpg: Looks like * is bound to the currently inspected object.
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2017-12-28T17:20:06Z rpg: I suppose I should submit a manual patch....
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2017-12-28T17:32:07Z jmercouris: rpg: You mean a patch to the manual?
2017-12-28T17:35:36Z rpg: jmercouris: yes!
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2017-12-28T17:37:46Z ebrasca: What type is for bit array?
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2017-12-28T17:41:42Z Bike: (array bit)
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2017-12-28T17:44:04Z ebrasca: Bike: In structure is it like (nanme nil :type (array bit)) ?
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2017-12-28T17:44:40Z Bike: I think that's fine, yes.
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2017-12-28T17:50:36Z peterpp: I'm new to lisp and am about to use s-expressions for the first time as a configuration file format... I'm wondering if there's anything I should watch out for
2017-12-28T17:51:17Z peterpp: my understanding is that using s-expressions for this purpose is a rather common thing to do?
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2017-12-28T17:52:15Z mejja: watch out for square brackets.. :-)
2017-12-28T17:52:44Z peterpp: if this is an inside joke then it's lost on me :(
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2017-12-28T17:55:37Z ebrasca: peterpp: What else do you like to use?
2017-12-28T17:55:46Z peterpp: you mean for config files?
2017-12-28T17:55:48Z peterpp: usually yaml
2017-12-28T17:55:56Z peterpp: before I began using lisp
2017-12-28T17:57:04Z shka: good evening all
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2017-12-28T17:57:12Z shka: Shinmera: you there?
2017-12-28T17:57:13Z peterpp: ebrasca, what about you?
2017-12-28T17:57:16Z ebrasca: peterpp: I like to use s-expressions , you can use what you like more.
2017-12-28T17:57:38Z Shinmera: shka: I am, but tied up. Should be free in some hours.
2017-12-28T17:57:50Z shka: oh, i will be asleep then
2017-12-28T17:57:56Z shka: well, carry on
2017-12-28T17:57:57Z Shinmera: shka: Just write to #shirakumo and I'll get back to you later.
2017-12-28T17:58:47Z shka: it is not urgent, just regarding documentation-utils -- i think that we don't connect perfectly
2017-12-28T17:59:21Z peterpp: ebrasca, do you happen to have an example of a config file that uses s-epxrs that you could show me?
2017-12-28T17:59:31Z peterpp: may sound stupid...
2017-12-28T17:59:37Z peterpp: but I'd really like to see an example
2017-12-28T18:00:27Z ebrasca: peterpp: I have stumpwm with config/code in s-expressions.
2017-12-28T18:00:45Z peterpp: haha I also used stumpwm before I switched to ratpoison :-)
2017-12-28T18:00:59Z peterpp: good idea actually
2017-12-28T18:01:52Z peterpp: are there a lot of stumpwm users around here? never met one before
2017-12-28T18:02:05Z Xach_: Shinmera: hmm, it's not sufficient just to rebuild qtools with fresh fasls, it seems that other projects that require qtools will trigger the fasl symbol issue.
2017-12-28T18:02:16Z ebrasca: peterpp: I have emacs style . All my configs are in ~/.stumpwm.d
2017-12-28T18:02:19Z Xach_: i can build more with fresh fasls, but it does increase the build time quite a bit.
2017-12-28T18:02:38Z ebrasca: peterpp: I am stumpwm user.
2017-12-28T18:03:05Z peterpp: oh man I had no idea stumpwm is so well maintained... I just looked at the recent commit history on github
2017-12-28T18:03:41Z sjl: peterpp: if you're using READ to parse the config file, be aware that it can execute arbitrary code, e.g. (:username #.(run-program "rm -rf /")
2017-12-28T18:03:42Z __sigjuice__: peterpp: you could take a look at people's .sbclrc files?
2017-12-28T18:03:57Z peterpp: good idea thanks
2017-12-28T18:04:12Z __sigjuice__: or did you want stumpwm config files in particular?
2017-12-28T18:04:36Z peterpp: no, just generally wanted to take inspiration from config file formats that rely on s-expressions
2017-12-28T18:05:00Z __sigjuice__: or .emacs files
2017-12-28T18:05:40Z sjl: so if you want to use untrusted config files, you'll probably want something like cl-secure-read
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2017-12-28T18:06:10Z peterpp: ah thanks
2017-12-28T18:07:04Z __sigjuice__: .swank.lisp is another example that comes to mind. https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Other-configurables.html#Other-configurables
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2017-12-28T18:12:43Z __sigjuice__: peterpp: my imagination should be considered very limited, but I can't envision needing anything more complicated than a pile of special variables
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2017-12-28T18:30:28Z peterpp: has anyone here looked into shen?
2017-12-28T18:31:01Z peterpp: I read the author's essay on 'bipolar lisp programmers' today oO
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2017-12-28T18:32:10Z ebrasca: peterpp: "bipolar"?
2017-12-28T18:32:15Z peterpp: yeah
2017-12-28T18:32:17Z peterpp: wait
2017-12-28T18:32:34Z peterpp: http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html
2017-12-28T18:33:25Z sjl: I've looked at Shen a little bit, but the development environment isn't nearly as mature as something like CL+Slime
2017-12-28T18:33:31Z sjl: so I mostly stick to CL
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2017-12-28T18:34:45Z jasom: makomo: cool, also note cl-json ships with two different ways of generating keywords from strings, one of which will refuse to intern new symbols (which is good if you're concerned about someone sending you a billion different keywords to use up all your server RAM)
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2017-12-28T18:37:48Z peterpp: I'm struggling with how lisp-mode indents my source code: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/d87c3cf2a2c4fc85e0ee60b12e71f183
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2017-12-28T18:39:37Z jasom: peterpp: that would be code that is calling the function named :foo with the arguments :bar :baz :boom
2017-12-28T18:40:11Z peterpp: say it occurs somewhere in a list with '(...)
2017-12-28T18:40:18Z jasom: i.e. the first expample is correct without any further context.
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2017-12-28T18:41:18Z jasom: peterpp: see my content; it "works on my machine"
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2017-12-28T18:41:26Z jasom: s/content/comment on the gist/
2017-12-28T18:42:20Z jasom: though I'm not in pure lisp-mode, I'm running slime, I don't think it makes a difference for this case, but I can try in a bit
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2017-12-28T18:42:38Z peterpp: hmm for me lisp-mode still indents the wrong way... good to know it works on your machine though, I guess I messed something up
2017-12-28T18:42:40Z peterpp: thank you
2017-12-28T18:42:53Z peterpp: I'm also running slime
2017-12-28T18:42:58Z peterpp: anyways I'll find out
2017-12-28T18:43:41Z parjanya: peterpp: ouch, that "bipolar" text
2017-12-28T18:44:07Z peterpp: I personally don't know lisp's culture well enough to evaluate it
2017-12-28T18:44:10Z peterpp: what do you think?
2017-12-28T18:44:24Z peterpp: neither its culture nor history
2017-12-28T18:46:02Z jasom: hmm, bare lisp-mode does seem to do it the way you see (e.g. *scratch* indents my example wrongly)
2017-12-28T18:46:08Z parjanya: parjanya: I’m a newcomer (too?), but I’ve seen a good chunk of that attitude of melancholia and lack of interaction with other people
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2017-12-28T18:46:20Z parjanya: ... peterpp ↑
2017-12-28T18:47:06Z __sigjuice__: peterpp: what other cultures have you evaluated?
2017-12-28T18:47:59Z peterpp: I don't think I've even been a close insider in any programming-related 'culture'
2017-12-28T18:48:03Z peterpp: ever
2017-12-28T18:48:07Z peterpp: not even
2017-12-28T18:48:25Z jasom: peterpp: can you paste the output of C-h m
2017-12-28T18:48:35Z jasom: peterpp: do it with the file that is indenting wrongly open
2017-12-28T18:49:37Z peterpp: jasom, https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8e64b410480f4d48005ccfe671f132b1
2017-12-28T18:50:43Z peterpp: jasom, err... now it works
2017-12-28T18:51:00Z peterpp: I just opened another new buffer and now it gets indented correctly
2017-12-28T18:51:07Z peterpp: sorry if I wasted your time :(
2017-12-28T18:51:41Z jasom: peterpp: don't worry about it.  That sounds like a problem with emacs or slime.  If you figure out how to reproduce it, let me know
2017-12-28T18:51:51Z peterpp: I will, thanks, are you a maintainer?
2017-12-28T18:54:52Z jasom: parjanya: Taver's essay is problematic, if for no other reason than that the symptoms described are not bipolar.
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2017-12-28T19:00:33Z peterpp: I must say... you folks are a lot more enjoyable to talk to than the folks I met in most other programming-related irc channels
2017-12-28T19:00:54Z Xach_: peterpp: it helps if you stay on topic and show an interest in learning
2017-12-28T19:04:05Z parjanya: jasom: yes, it’s quite an imprecise use of the term... I don’t know enough about lispers to say anything meaningful, but I know plenty of the kind of people he describes, from school on
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2017-12-28T19:06:11Z mlau: : don't worry about it.  That sounds like a problem with emacs or slime.  If you figure out how
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2017-12-28T19:20:17Z makomo: jasom: mhm, i remember you mentioned that. however, cl-json:*identifier-name-to-key* isn't mentioned anywhere in the docs
2017-12-28T19:20:33Z makomo: the variable holds the function which turns a string into an object that will be used as the key
2017-12-28T19:20:45Z makomo: by default it's CL-JSON:JSON-INTERN
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2017-12-28T19:21:29Z makomo: there's just a little note somewhere about JSON-INTERN and JSON-SAFE-INTERN, but no mention of how to actually swap one with the other (or use your own version)
2017-12-28T19:21:53Z makomo: i.e. *IDENTIFIER-NAME-TO-KEY* isn't documented, at least not in https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-json/
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2017-12-28T19:22:20Z makomo: hah, it's documented here http://quickdocs.org/cl-json/api
2017-12-28T19:22:48Z pjb: You can measure how bad a system is by measuring how much it's talked about in help channels.  JSON is very bad.  Why don't you just use SEXPS?
2017-12-28T19:23:29Z makomo: well, the data i pulled from the web is in JSON, so i have no other choice right now
2017-12-28T19:23:42Z makomo: however, i was thinking of switching the data over to either sexps or into an SQL database
2017-12-28T19:24:03Z makomo: still, i don't find json *that* horrible
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2017-12-28T19:24:21Z pjb: Granted, there are worst things.
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2017-12-28T19:30:46Z jasom: makomo: also, you can just use strings and change the make-hash-table to use #'equal
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2017-12-28T19:31:21Z jasom: pjb: part of it is just that it's really easy to write bad JSON libraries
2017-12-28T19:32:17Z peterpp: pjb, in what way do you consider s-expressions superior to json for this purpose? (genuine question from a lisp newbie)
2017-12-28T19:35:41Z dmiles: JSON implies an exact structural meaning.  whereas s-expressions (depending on the content can have differnt meanings beyond structure)
2017-12-28T19:36:18Z rme: Of course, s-expressions are very easy to print and read from lisp (just like json is in javascript).
2017-12-28T19:36:20Z dmiles: for example: (loves john martha) ,, how do you say that in JSON?
2017-12-28T19:36:32Z jasom: dmiles: [loves john martha]
2017-12-28T19:36:49Z jasom: dmiles: ["loves", "john", "martha"] rather
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2017-12-28T19:37:52Z dmiles: jasom: yeah true JSON-LD (link data) encourages such meanings to be preformed based on operators
2017-12-28T19:38:30Z jasom: obviously there are things that you can represent in JSON that are harder to represent in sexps and vice-versa
2017-12-28T19:38:49Z jasom: How do you represent this in JSON, for example? [null, false]
2017-12-28T19:38:53Z jasom: s/JSON/sexp
2017-12-28T19:39:20Z dmiles: *nod* secretly JSON has more structual freedoms that just conses
2017-12-28T19:39:52Z jasom: but sexps have strings and symbols as distinct entities
2017-12-28T19:39:53Z dmiles: *nod* secretly JSON has more structual freedoms than *just* conses
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2017-12-28T19:40:41Z jasom: and is nil a boolean false, an empty list, an empty alist, or an empty plist?
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2017-12-28T19:42:03Z dmiles: oh true i see what you mean .. if we wanted to we could even have multiple types of nils
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2017-12-28T19:42:20Z jasom: communicating between two lisp programs with JSON is rather silly, but JSON isn't inherently worse or better than sexps for other cases.
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2017-12-28T19:43:19Z pjb: peterpp: the superiority of sexp is that it's designed for lisp objects (mind you, not all of them, but a sizeable subset of them). So it works well to communicate between lisp processes.
2017-12-28T19:44:07Z pjb: (loves john martha) may mean something different from (loves john "Martha")
2017-12-28T19:44:29Z pjb: John hated Martha, however he named his daughter "Martha" since he loved that name.
2017-12-28T19:44:48Z pjb: But then you can always write more complex json to encode it.
2017-12-28T19:44:55Z jasom: peterpp: I'm not necessarily recommending this, but here's an example of me using an actual lisp file for configuration; I just LOAD it: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/config.lisp
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2017-12-28T19:48:09Z dmiles: yeah the point of json-ld is to document the various complex meaning-rich json encodings, just like IKL (Icarus language) document the various complex meaning-rich s-expressions
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2017-12-28T19:48:31Z caffe: o/
2017-12-28T19:50:00Z dmiles: IKL Guide = https://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes/IKL/GUIDE/GUIDE.html#id33G
2017-12-28T19:51:02Z caffe: silly question.. i've been playing around, and noticed that things like :foo do not result in a debugger prompt or error. is there a use for this, or some way i can define a function to those symbols(?)
2017-12-28T19:51:48Z caffe: that is, just something like * :foo, not contained in an s-expression
2017-12-28T19:52:05Z shka: caffe: those are keyword symbols and you can't
2017-12-28T19:52:27Z caffe: so all they can ever do is just repeat :FOO back to you?
2017-12-28T19:54:51Z rpg: dmiles: I thought json-ld was just to let people smear JSON data across different documents?
2017-12-28T19:55:01Z shka: caffe: they have uses
2017-12-28T19:56:13Z dmiles: rpg: yes, though in a way that we can know what the data meant postmortum
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2017-12-28T19:57:08Z rpg: dmiles: post mortem?
2017-12-28T19:57:24Z rpg: Is it supposed to somehow be like OWL?
2017-12-28T19:57:38Z caffe: reading up more on them now, and yeah.. this isn't what i was looking for.
2017-12-28T19:58:24Z caffe: what i was hoping for was a way to define a shorthand command to be used in the repl, similar to commands in the lisp listener prefixed with a colon
2017-12-28T19:58:34Z caffe: er, a comma.. not a colon
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2017-12-28T19:59:08Z rpg: caffe: those commands are defined using special facilities that are not the same as DEFUN.
2017-12-28T19:59:27Z dmiles: analysis for after the json object is plastered to the page ["loves", "john", "martha"] .. ahah there was a loveful event involving john towards something
2017-12-28T19:59:54Z rpg: caffe: The :-commands used in ACL's repl or SBCL's ACLREPL are defined with a special defining macro.
2017-12-28T20:00:08Z dmiles: rpg: yes, json-ld sort of replaces owl for many users
2017-12-28T20:00:13Z rpg: Similarly, the comma-commands in SLIME's repl are defined in a special way.
2017-12-28T20:00:35Z caffe: so are those methods unique to their environments?
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2017-12-28T20:01:25Z rpg: dmiles: OWL was intended to be able to say what a particular data item "means", but has been less than satisfactory for a number of reasons.  IMNSHO the use of description logic for its semantics was a total disaster.
2017-12-28T20:01:58Z dmiles: it was a disaster due to the "rule of least power"
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2017-12-28T20:02:50Z rpg: Not only the rule of least power, but also because it's a *logical* notation that *looks like* an object-oriented notation, meaning that the vast majority of people -- even very sophisticated people -- who use it don't understand what it means.
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2017-12-28T20:03:26Z rpg: The essence of OO programming is mutation, so giving people a notation that looks like OO, but in which mutation is forbidden is nutso.
2017-12-28T20:03:33Z caffe: or rather, are the facilities for defining those macros unique to their implementations? (clim listener, slime, etc)
2017-12-28T20:03:51Z dmiles: haha, true
2017-12-28T20:03:58Z rpg: caffe: Yes.
2017-12-28T20:04:23Z dmiles: (true about what you said is nutso)
2017-12-28T20:04:38Z caffe: well, thank you. now i have a better idea on what i need to read up on next.
2017-12-28T20:04:43Z dmiles: instead of description logic, we should have used situatation/fluent calculus which is what congress paid for in funding the research
2017-12-28T20:04:52Z rpg: dmiles: the notation is a "false friend" like "he" in hebrew (which means "she")
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2017-12-28T20:06:05Z rpg: dmiles: Worked on a project where we tried to use OWL-S (the OWL-based webservices markup language).  Wow!  Having a language for describing computation that has no provision for state change or for the concept of "variable" was a total trainwreck.
2017-12-28T20:06:34Z rpg: oh yeah, and it couldn't deal with the fact that web services often produce *knowledge* about things in the world.
2017-12-28T20:06:37Z dmiles: (congress was sold on the abilites of inference engines that used dynamicly mutating situations that transacted using inferred states)
2017-12-28T20:07:29Z dmiles: (for your usecase even!)
2017-12-28T20:07:33Z rpg: In my experience there are now tons of systems that use the *syntax* of OWL, but that have widely diverging semantics, or no semantics at all.
2017-12-28T20:08:11Z rpg: (for those who have heard the "Car Talk" radio show, I should have said "don't get me stahted!")
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2017-12-28T20:08:58Z dmiles: rpg: i am glad you might be a kindered soul whom is angry as hell at the debacle)
2017-12-28T20:09:30Z dmiles: because how much time you had to waste
2017-12-28T20:09:34Z rpg: dmiles: sounds like it.
2017-12-28T20:10:03Z rpg: caffe: I don't fully understand the comma commands for SLIME because they seem somewhat awkwardly split across emacs-lisp and common lisp.
2017-12-28T20:10:43Z dmiles: rpg: what relaly bugs me is for 5 years prior to the semantic web, myself and many people were doing all the things the semantic web dreammed of
2017-12-28T20:11:25Z rpg: what really bugs *me* is that it's clear that no one could have tried to use OWL-S or DAML seriously before trying to foist it on the world at large.
2017-12-28T20:11:30Z dmiles: the semantic web was created so we didnt have to do those things secretly anymore
2017-12-28T20:11:34Z caffe: i don't personally use SLIME much. i'm more familiar with them in clim-listener, but i'd like to hack together something similar that works in a plain sbcl repl just the same as it would in the listener, or slime, etc
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2017-12-28T20:12:41Z dmiles: (yet the semaantic web *prevented* specifically the logical representations required to perform those tasks)
2017-12-28T20:13:37Z rpg: caffe: I think that would be pretty hard, at least for SLIME, because of the way that its commands must be written in elisp.  Also, for reasons I'm too lazy to understand, SLIME and (SB-ACLREPL and ACL's REPL) are incompatible.  I think it's probably because SLIME has to parse all the stuff that goes into the repl itself, so commands that are programmed into the underlying lisp aren't understandable
2017-12-28T20:14:12Z rpg: dmiles: It's afternoon here and I *must* eat or I will start  chewing my keyboard.  TTYL, I hope.
2017-12-28T20:14:17Z caffe: i'm not too worried about it working in SLIME
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2017-12-28T20:14:33Z dmiles: rpg: one day i was translating English to KIF and then back to English (round tripping), my supervisor told me to start billing DAML project
2017-12-28T20:14:54Z dmiles: and to round trip in DAML-OIL instead
2017-12-28T20:15:02Z dmiles: i couldnt do it :(
2017-12-28T20:15:11Z dmiles: so i wasted a year
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2017-12-28T20:15:50Z dmiles: then i watch everyone else melt away in the same pain
2017-12-28T20:16:59Z caffe: i'll start by picking apart SB-ACLREPL to get a better understanding of what i'm dealing with, and/or see if that's something i could make use of
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2017-12-28T20:53:57Z didi: What problems should I expect by setting *print-circle* to t inside my .sbclrc?
2017-12-28T20:54:25Z antoszka: I haven't really noticed any serious issues.
2017-12-28T20:54:36Z didi: antoszka: Thanks.
2017-12-28T20:54:47Z antoszka: It may actually give you additional insight into the way your structures actually *reuse* data.
2017-12-28T20:55:10Z antoszka: Using the #N# notation.
2017-12-28T20:55:23Z didi: Hum, interesting.
2017-12-28T20:56:57Z antoszka: (not only for truly circular structures)
2017-12-28T20:59:48Z rpg: dmiles: Hi.  Sorry about running off...
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2017-12-28T21:59:30Z jmercouris: jasom: +1 That essay was not even close to describing what bipolar is
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2017-12-28T23:02:49Z le4fy: jmercouris: definitely sub-optimal word choice w/ "bipolar". but if you're a little forgiving i think it is still a decent point
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2017-12-28T23:03:36Z le4fy: the point being "lispers" tend to work hard on interesting problems, and can easily lack motivation when forced to do something they don't believe in
2017-12-28T23:03:50Z le4fy: "bimodal" might be better
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2017-12-28T23:14:57Z jasom: le4fy: I'll have to reread that essay, because that's a much kinder interpretation than I remember getting
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2017-12-28T23:18:26Z le4fy: jason: was your interpretation one that was unkind to the lisper?
2017-12-28T23:19:08Z le4fy: mine was one that was relatively kind to the lisper, but understood the lisper as being stuck in a world of bullshit
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2017-12-28T23:21:06Z le4fy: i read this essay (a couple years ago) at the same time i read this one (http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html)
2017-12-28T23:21:10Z le4fy: i felt they are related
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2017-12-28T23:27:50Z _death: essays about lispers are easier to write than essays about lisp
2017-12-28T23:30:25Z fe[nl]ix: :D
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2017-12-28T23:51:30Z aeth: I personally see Lisp as just another language (1) that is more multiparadigm than most languages (to make up numbers, you can do 45% of the paradigms in most languages and 84% in CL) and (2) where it is much easier to control when non-runtime evaluation happens than with most languages (lots of ways to do it, too).
2017-12-28T23:52:05Z aeth: I think essays about how Lisp is some special magic language and Lispers are rare geniuses aren't productive.
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2017-12-28T23:53:17Z drdo: I can write lisp macros, that means I'm a genius of the highest calibre!
2017-12-28T23:53:45Z aeth: Oh #2 is far more than just the defmacro macros.
2017-12-28T23:54:16Z aeth: And if you're willing to give up portability to all implementations, there are some extensions that give even more power than CLHS offers.
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2017-12-28T23:54:42Z aeth: (A new standard would be great to make all the popular and very useful extensions standard.)
2017-12-28T23:55:40Z rme: more lisp, fewer essays
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2017-12-28T23:57:49Z aeth: Ironically, there probably needs to be an essay about how all the popular essays are wrong.
2017-12-28T23:58:12Z drdo: I would welcome a new standard, but don't go around saying that, they'll shoot you
2017-12-28T23:58:41Z aeth: drdo: I always sneak in "there should be a new standard" as often as possible, in hopes that I can gradually get people used to the idea. Subtle propaganda.
2017-12-28T23:59:04Z aeth: Right now the ideology is that (1) there shouldn't be a new standard and (2) it's impossible to do one even if people wanted one
2017-12-28T23:59:57Z aeth: And, yeah, #2 is true if you're going for an ANSI or ISO or whatever standard. But no one cares about those anymore for programming languages. Scheme gets by fine with its rnrs.
2017-12-29T00:01:04Z drdo: scheme gets by fine you say?
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2017-12-29T00:01:11Z drdo: Except nobody cares about scheme standards
2017-12-29T00:01:32Z aeth: Actually, the de facto Scheme standards are the SRFIs, and Schemes care about (some of) those.
2017-12-29T00:01:44Z aeth: Which is strange because it's the opposite in the CL world, where the CL equivalent of SRFIs are pretty much entirely ignored
2017-12-29T00:02:38Z aeth: But I would disagree about no one caring about the rnrs. People care about the r5rs so much that r6rs was rejected and r7rs has to basically be compatible with r5rs.
2017-12-29T00:03:51Z aeth: A modern Scheme is essentially extensions to r5rs or r7rs-small (and r7rs-small contains an r5rs compatibility mode... so I can just say "extensions to r5rs")
2017-12-29T00:04:01Z _death: in the unlikely case of a new CL "standard", I'd give up programming
2017-12-29T00:04:37Z aeth: _death: The only way a new standard would work is if it took things that basically every popular implementation has and standardized them. e.g. gray streams.
2017-12-29T00:04:47Z aeth: It would have to be very conservative.
2017-12-29T00:05:09Z Xach:  /win 3
2017-12-29T00:05:17Z _death: aeth: then there's no point to it
2017-12-29T00:05:29Z aeth: _death: It would be useful to have a new baseline for a standard CL, though. Because a "standard CL" without support for the de facto standards is useless.
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2017-12-29T00:05:45Z _death: besides, Gray streams suck
2017-12-29T00:06:40Z aeth: _death: But it would also be nice to up the minimums, and to have set minimums for each bit size. e.g. fixnums for 64-bit implementations should be at a minimum 60-bit signed-byte integers. Nearly every implementation will pass this. I think CLISP's is 48 or something, and only it will fail.
2017-12-29T00:06:55Z aeth: It would enable assumptions that probably every makes to actually be portable.
2017-12-29T00:07:59Z aeth: Afaik, CL standard sizes for things are made to be safe for 16 bit implementations. So... keep those for 16-31 bit implementations, have new minimums for 32-63 bit implementations, and have new minimums for 64+ bit implementations. Now you can make assumptions.
2017-12-29T00:08:29Z aeth: Right now, any CL application with strings longer than 1024 is technically not going to run on every possible standard CL implementation.
2017-12-29T00:09:03Z aeth: (any array at all, actually)
2017-12-29T00:10:08Z _death: I don't think you appreciate the weight of my statement.. since you seem to throw technical arguments at me :)
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2017-12-29T00:10:36Z aeth: For the most part, no implementation would have to change except for ones that really go out of their way to not follow de facto standards, like CLISP. e.g. single-float and double-float and (unsigned-byte 8) arrays aren't guaranteed to exist. Only bit and character. But almost every implementation has these. (CLISP doesn't have them for floats, though.)
2017-12-29T00:11:23Z aeth: A ton of libraries assume these de facto standards that are technically not required by the standard.
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2017-12-29T00:14:01Z aeth: Depending on how conservative the extensions part is (not the same as the minimums part), SBCL might not have to change at all. It has almost all of them already.
2017-12-29T00:15:19Z aeth: Other implementations would benefit, though, because they could rely on programs that are essentially written on and for SBCL.
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2017-12-29T00:25:05Z Xach: aeth: I was thinking of documenting some of those de facto standards
2017-12-29T00:25:21Z Xach: aeth: like that writing (unsigned-byte 8) stuff does what you expect
2017-12-29T00:25:37Z aeth: Xach: That would be a useful project.
2017-12-29T00:26:15Z _death: CL is a haven of stability, where not only your programs will still work in 20 years, but also the values and aesthetics of fellow programmers will remain palatable.. your code, way of writing code, way of thinking about problems won't turn "legacy" just because some committee out there put out a new document, or some dude made a bunch of commits.. CL is flexible enough to remain relevant without change.. that is why CL will never be
2017-12-29T00:26:15Z _death: successful in the professional world of programming
2017-12-29T00:26:21Z aeth: Sizes of things (e.g. fixnum size), which specialized arrays are supported, which extensions are supported, etc., would make a useful table. Perhaps also some popular library support as well (e.g. bordeaux-threads, cffi, etc.)
2017-12-29T00:27:28Z aeth: _death: A successful extension to the CL standard makes new paradigms implementable in libraries, rather than directly implementing those new paradigms. e.g. things like this should stay as libraries: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
2017-12-29T00:27:39Z aeth: But making sure that things like that *can* be implemented as libraries would be good
2017-12-29T00:27:55Z Xach: sbcl and asdf will break your code in a few months
2017-12-29T00:28:45Z _death: Xach: asdf is one thing and sbcl is another.. in sbcl we trust; in asdf, not so much
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2017-12-29T00:33:50Z _death: (to clarify, I meant "successful" in the usual way it is used by professionals, i.e. "popular")
2017-12-29T00:35:00Z aeth: _death: Popularity doesn't have anything to do with quality, or really anything that a language can control. Languages have network effects, just like Facebook does. You can make a better social network, but that doesn't mean people will go there.
2017-12-29T00:35:50Z aeth: _death: But on the flip side, that doesn't mean CL will never be popular among programmers. What tends to work with programming languages is the "killer app" concept that works with platforms in general, except instead of "app" it's more about the ecosystem. e.g. Rails is the reason why most people use Ruby (or at least initially used Ruby, even if they switched to something else later)
2017-12-29T00:35:52Z Xach: _death: I feel the same way but I'm not sure why.
2017-12-29T00:36:17Z Xach: _death: is it because the priests of SBCL are interpreting the oracular utterances of the spec?
2017-12-29T00:37:21Z aeth: Unfortunately for Lisp, the killer "app" that drove its use was traditional-style AI.
2017-12-29T00:40:04Z aeth: (The really healthy languages like C++ and Python have multiple, very different things that draw people to the language.)
2017-12-29T00:41:59Z _death: Xach: they are also guardians of the Common Lisp Law
2017-12-29T00:43:30Z _death: aeth: I think we're miscommunicating..
2017-12-29T00:43:38Z aeth: _death: probably
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2017-12-29T00:45:49Z __sigjuice__: what drives the disruptive changes in crucial things like asdf?
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2017-12-29T00:47:30Z _death: I think it's sufficient to consider just the age of SBCL (incl. its origin) vs. the age of ASDF
2017-12-29T00:47:39Z |3b| suspects most of it is difficult problem domain
2017-12-29T00:48:01Z stylewarning: __sigjuice__: every so often asdf is made “better” by introducing a small backwards incompatibility that fundamentally breaks 1–2% of the ecosystem but propagates transitively to a larger percentage.
2017-12-29T00:48:43Z aeth: Ah, I think I have the right way to get fixnum size. (integer-length (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum))
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2017-12-29T00:49:07Z aeth: (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) should be a bunch of 1s, and integer-length should give the exact length of that bunch of 1s
2017-12-29T00:49:24Z aeth: CLISP's is 49, not 48
2017-12-29T00:49:45Z |3b|: aeth: should be able to just use positive or negative instead of both
2017-12-29T00:49:52Z __sigjuice__: stylewarning: are these sorts of breaking changes known ahead of time via cl-test-grid perhaps?
2017-12-29T00:50:10Z |3b|: if you need both, the configuration is probably odd enough that a single 'size' number would be misleading anyway
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2017-12-29T00:50:17Z aeth: |3b|: well 1+
2017-12-29T00:50:17Z stylewarning: __sigjuice__: Xach has been a great defender. He sees all of QL breaks.
2017-12-29T00:50:34Z aeth: |3b|: (1+ (integer-length most-positive-fixnum)) should give the same number
2017-12-29T00:50:41Z |3b|: right
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2017-12-29T01:25:54Z rme: The last time we (ccl hackers) talked about an ARM64 port, we were considering using high tags.  This would mean a fixnum would be a (signed-byte 56).
2017-12-29T01:27:34Z |3b|: could you still do the usual trick of dedicating 1/2 or whatever of the tags to fixnums to get some of the bits back?
2017-12-29T01:30:06Z rme: I think we were talking about tagging fixnums with sign extension so that fixnump would be quick (like 3 instructions).
2017-12-29T01:31:29Z |3b|: though fixnum size matters much less on 64bit than on 32... 24-bit fixnum is small enough to limit the size of bit-arrays on a reasonable system, 56 probably isn't :)
2017-12-29T01:32:28Z |3b|: seems like most of the time i get close to 64 bits i need all 64 bits, so doesn't really matter if fixnum is 56 or 63
2017-12-29T01:33:08Z rme: array-total-size-limit is already 56 on 64-bit ccl, so that wouldn't be a change
2017-12-29T01:37:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there someway to do something like an "integer pool" so that integers don't need to be tagged?
2017-12-29T01:38:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. something like setting aside a certain chunk of memory for integers and telling the garbage collector to ignore addresses in that area?
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2017-12-29T01:43:43Z Bike: that would depend on a lot of implementation details
2017-12-29T01:43:44Z |3b|: fiddlerwoaroof: doesn't help with putting them in registers
2017-12-29T01:44:05Z Bike: tags aren't only used by the garbage collector, either
2017-12-29T01:44:47Z |3b|: and pretty much the point of a fixnum is that you /don't/ put it in some separate memory
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2017-12-29T01:45:41Z |3b|: though if that was just a general question unrelated to fixnums, specialized arrays are pretty much that
2017-12-29T01:45:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: didn't think of that, I was just wondering if there was some way to use all 64 bits without running into problems like integers being mistaken for pointers
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2017-12-29T01:46:04Z Bike_: it's possible, but usually it would be in some dynamic extent
2017-12-29T01:46:36Z Bike_: like if you had (let ((x (the (unsigned-byte 64) whatever))) ...) and x doesn't escape, sbcl can maybe do that, like it does for floats
2017-12-29T01:46:52Z |3b|: bignums let you use 64bits inefficiently, declared types let some compilers deal with 64-bit values directly, usually within some limited scope (like you probably still have to tag/box them to pass between functions)
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2017-12-29T01:49:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: bignums are boxed, right?
2017-12-29T01:49:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: + have magic to combine several words into a single number?
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2017-12-29T01:51:07Z pransninja: Hello
2017-12-29T01:51:22Z pransninja: is there a version of hyperspec somewhere that doesn't look like a joke?
2017-12-29T01:51:40Z pransninja: Or maybe you have a userstyle script that you don't mind sharing?
2017-12-29T01:51:55Z pransninja: might have to write one, if there isn't any.
2017-12-29T01:52:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's this: https://franz.com/support/documentation/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf
2017-12-29T01:53:10Z _death: pransninja: does text look like a joke to you?
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2017-12-29T01:53:49Z pransninja: _death: Are you kidding me, right? it is the interface, the content seems okay from a lisp novice point of view.
2017-12-29T01:53:58Z _death: try Common Lisp, the Picture Book
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2017-12-29T01:54:45Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: yes re bignums
2017-12-29T01:54:50Z Bike: though it's not very magical
2017-12-29T01:54:53Z _death: pransninja: do you think I'm kidding you because IRC is text? :)
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2017-12-29T01:55:30Z pransninja: _death: Haha, come on, those script text in pictures and a layout that I still haven't figured out after two days of clicking around is absurd.
2017-12-29T01:55:51Z _death: pransninja: do you use emacs?
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2017-12-29T01:56:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: franz has a different version: https://franz.com/support/documentation/10.1/ansicl/ansicl.htm
2017-12-29T01:56:39Z pransninja: The documents also lack a clear structure, not arguing that it is not there, typography that needs decipher defeats the purpose of typography.
2017-12-29T01:56:45Z pransninja: _death: VIM.
2017-12-29T01:56:45Z Bike: what layout is there to figure out? you get to the table of contents and click chapter titles
2017-12-29T01:56:48Z pransninja hides away
2017-12-29T01:56:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a standard, not novice documentation
2017-12-29T01:56:57Z pransninja: neovim actually, but the point stands.
2017-12-29T01:57:30Z Bike: neo new vim
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2017-12-29T01:57:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you use mac/linux, something like Dash or Velocity makes it easier to refer to the relevant sections, but CLHS's license prevents people from modifying it.
2017-12-29T01:57:55Z pransninja: Bike: neo Improved Vi.
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2017-12-29T01:58:14Z parjanya: don’t you say
2017-12-29T01:58:15Z pransninja: Neo Vi Improved, actually.
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2017-12-29T01:58:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: This has a bunch of the same info, but it's very much a work in progress: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-12-29T01:59:02Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: Thank you, the franz one is much better.
2017-12-29T01:59:20Z pransninja: I like that it makes sense, you go to index, you go to articles, you repeat. No other nonsense.
2017-12-29T01:59:29Z _death: pransninja: so when you pick up emacs, you can download an offline copy of the clhs and just use eww or emacs-w3m to browse it, and your concerns about typography and pictures will evaporate
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2017-12-29T02:00:14Z pransninja: _death: If my uncle had some extra bits she would be an alien.
2017-12-29T02:00:27Z pransninja: But I should give Emacs try sometime, for now, I am more keen to learn lisp.
2017-12-29T02:00:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to learn CL, it's probably better to start with something like Practical Common Lisp, Gentle or some other document
2017-12-29T02:00:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: tell pransninja about pcl
2017-12-29T02:00:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: tell pransninja about pcl
2017-12-29T02:00:49Z minion: pransninja: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-12-29T02:00:52Z pransninja: Yeah, reading that just about now.
2017-12-29T02:00:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: tell pransninja about gentle
2017-12-29T02:00:55Z minion: pransninja: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2017-12-29T02:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think PCL is one of the best introductions to a programming language that I've read, but some people have found it too verbose and its tone irritating
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2017-12-29T02:03:05Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: I am on the second bandwagon, the core content is pretty good so far though.
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2017-12-29T02:03:28Z pransninja: Really like that it is "practical" but there is something about the language that makes me want to chew my nails.
2017-12-29T02:03:45Z pransninja: the language of the book, not lisp.
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2017-12-29T02:06:29Z pransninja: So far I love the whole idea of "live" programming with a REPL along with your text editor.
2017-12-29T02:06:45Z pransninja: Makes iterative programming so much nicer.
2017-12-29T02:07:10Z pransninja: I am already worried how bad going back to my "everyday" language would feel like. lol
2017-12-29T02:07:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I find CL so much nicer than other environments: and very few other programming languages have a similar experience: of the popular ones, only Clojure comes close and it's a bit annoying in some respects.
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2017-12-29T02:10:41Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: I am on learn languages journey, after finishing PCL I will finish Real World OCaml, then learn F# maybe, or possibly Clojure.
2017-12-29T02:11:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've finished that journey :), I think I'd suggest Haskell rather than ocaml, but this is getting off-topic;
2017-12-29T02:11:51Z _death: the "mainstream" CL environment is still a long way from satisfactory in many ways.. there are lessons from emacs, jupyter, R, matlab.. but that requires a ton of work, and we're all busy doing Something Else(TM)
2017-12-29T02:13:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, beach and froggey sometimes seem like the only people doing something about that.
2017-12-29T02:13:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've wanted to, but it doesn't really pay the bills, and I don't have much free time :(
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2017-12-29T02:16:22Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: I like the idea of Haskell, trust me it is on my list of to learn languages, but probably right before I want to learn Rust properly.'
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2017-12-29T02:17:21Z _death: pransninja: reading a book is one thing and learning a language is another..
2017-12-29T02:17:21Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: I want to learn OCaml becuase I think ReasonML is going to be big in my industry.
2017-12-29T02:17:26Z pjb: caffe: have a look at: https://pastebin.com/f5JZfpwZ
2017-12-29T02:17:49Z pransninja: _death: Sure, but I can say with utmost certainty that reading a book is part of learning a language.
2017-12-29T02:18:33Z pransninja: But feel free to correct me if I am wrong; I will eat my cucumber if I am wrong.
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2017-12-29T02:19:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's often better to have some moderately complicated project to do in each language you learn and then use books and other materials to help you to implement your project in the language
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2017-12-29T02:20:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I learned CL by reading like 2/3rds of PCL and then trying to implement a RSS reader in CL
2017-12-29T02:20:58Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: For sure, I have some ideas in my mind, I actually have a project in back of my mind for years that requires understanding multiple languages to execute it well, along with a solid understanding of type theory.
2017-12-29T02:21:21Z pransninja: But back to lisp, given things like `(with-open-file (out filename ....))` how do I differentiate a function call from a list passed as a parameter?
2017-12-29T02:21:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can't in the general case: a macro determines the semantics of its arguments
2017-12-29T02:21:48Z pransninja: For a second I thought out was a function called with filename.
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2017-12-29T02:22:02Z pransninja: That makes sense, thought I was missing something obvious.
2017-12-29T02:22:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you have to read the documentation for the macro
2017-12-29T02:22:20Z pransninja: Makes sense, thanks.
2017-12-29T02:23:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Generally, there are two or three common macro patterns: with-* define-*/def* and do* and, within each pattern, the arguments are treated in fairly consistent ways.
2017-12-29T02:24:12Z _death: you always need the context... (+ 3 5) may look like a function call, but it's not, because surrounding that form is (quote ...)
2017-12-29T02:24:29Z pransninja: good hint. so `with-*` generally takes a list?
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2017-12-29T02:25:09Z pransninja: _death: Hmmm, I thought + operand was a function, what is it?
2017-12-29T02:25:25Z pjb: it's a symbol.
2017-12-29T02:25:42Z pjb: (type-of '+) #| --> symbol |#
2017-12-29T02:26:25Z pjb: The context is not only the surronding form, when you read it, it's the *readtable*, the *package* and other *read-…* variales.
2017-12-29T02:26:27Z pjb: +b
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2017-12-29T02:27:23Z pransninja: well, if I do `(defun x ())` then `(type-of 'x)` gives me symbol too.
2017-12-29T02:27:26Z pransninja: I don't understand.
2017-12-29T02:28:00Z pjb: (defun x ())  (list (quote x) (function x)) #| --> (x #<Compiled-function x #x302002FFC72F>) |#
2017-12-29T02:28:06Z pjb: (mapcar 'type-of (list (quote x) (function x))) #| --> (symbol function) |#
2017-12-29T02:30:14Z pransninja: I am none the wiser, still/
2017-12-29T02:30:21Z _death: try (describe 'x)
2017-12-29T02:30:22Z pransninja: \o/
2017-12-29T02:30:48Z pjb: pransninja: symbol is a type of lisp objects.
2017-12-29T02:30:54Z pjb: function is another type of lisp objects.
2017-12-29T02:31:01Z pjb: Some functions can be named with symbols.
2017-12-29T02:31:27Z pjb: Some other functions are named with lists of 2 symbols, the first being CL:SETF, and some functions are unnamed.
2017-12-29T02:31:35Z pransninja: Cool.
2017-12-29T02:31:47Z pransninja: What I want to understand is that if `(+ 1 2) is not a function call, then what it is?
2017-12-29T02:31:55Z pjb: In general, some objects can be used to name some other objects.
2017-12-29T02:31:58Z pransninja: I understand that + is a symbol tho.
2017-12-29T02:32:04Z pjb: It is a symbolic expression.
2017-12-29T02:32:20Z pjb: (type-of '(+ 1 2)) #| --> cons |#
2017-12-29T02:32:35Z pransninja: But isn't it still a function?
2017-12-29T02:32:38Z pransninja: What does "  Declared type: (FUNCTION (&REST NUMBER) (VALUES NUMBER &OPTIONAL))" means?
2017-12-29T02:32:51Z pransninja: I would have thought that it is a FUNCTION.
2017-12-29T02:33:02Z pjb: It's the type of a function that takes 0 or more numbers and returns a number and perhaps something else.
2017-12-29T02:33:16Z pransninja: Yeah, that is from (describe '+)
2017-12-29T02:33:18Z pransninja: :)
2017-12-29T02:33:39Z _death: pransninja: so + _names_ a function, but it is not a function
2017-12-29T02:34:01Z pransninja: yeah, of course.
2017-12-29T02:35:58Z _death: pransninja: and what `(+ 1 2)` is depends on the context.. it can be a function call, or it can be a list of 3 elements, or it can be the textual description of such a structure, for example..
2017-12-29T02:36:33Z pjb: pransninja: there are a lot of levels here, and some abuse of speech.
2017-12-29T02:37:44Z pransninja: I think I get it now.
2017-12-29T02:37:56Z pjb: pransninja: (+ 1 2) is a sequence of character. This is represented as a string in lisp, and a string is represented with the sequence of characters "(+ 1 2)"  `(+ 1 2)` doesn't represent anything in lisp.  More precisely, it is read as   `(+ 1 2)   and  `  the later being incomplete and provoking an end-of-file error
2017-12-29T02:38:00Z pransninja: Given the flexibility of lisp and the fact that is uber-meta, anything could be anything?
2017-12-29T02:38:26Z pjb: "(+ 1 2)" is a string, it is also a sexp.  It is read as the sexp (+ 1 2) : (read-from-string "(+ 1 2)") #| --> (+ 1 2) ; 7 |#
2017-12-29T02:38:53Z pransninja: But I suspect like how overloading could be abused in C++, it is likewise froward upon in Lisp to redefine "common sense" semantics?
2017-12-29T02:38:58Z pjb: Then the sexp (+ 1 2) can be processed by various functions.  When it is processed by EVAL, it is interpreted as a function call: (eval '(+ 1 2)) #| --> 3 |#
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2017-12-29T02:39:26Z pjb: But if it is present in the context of other sexps, it can be interpreted differently: (eval '(quote (+ 1 2)))  #| --> (+ 1 2) |#
2017-12-29T02:40:00Z pransninja: I think I will come back to this convo once I am done with PLC.
2017-12-29T02:40:07Z pransninja: PCL even.
2017-12-29T02:40:11Z pransninja: I must forge about PLCs for now.
2017-12-29T02:41:43Z pjb: (defpackage "ADD" (:use "CL") (:shadow "+")) (defun add::+ (&rest args) `'(let us add ,@args and have fun))  (let ((*package* (find-package "ADD"))) (eval (read-from-string "(+ 1 2)")))  #| --> '(let us add 1 2 and have fun) |#
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2017-12-29T02:45:24Z pjb: pransninja: (setf *read-base* 2.) (let (+ 3 4) (setf + 1 3 1 4 1) (+ + 3 4)) #| --> 3 |#
2017-12-29T02:46:02Z pjb: In that context, + is just a symbol, and is interpreted by the macro LET as the name of a variable. (3 and 4 too, since the current read base is two).
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2017-12-29T02:46:54Z pjb: But notice that in (+ + 3 4)  the first occurence of the symbol + is interpreted as the name of the function +, while the second occurence is interpreted as the name of the variable + bound by the surrounding LET form.
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2017-12-29T02:47:28Z _death: + is also a fixed-point function when used in the repl... to see that, type + RET a few times and see how it converges
2017-12-29T02:47:40Z pjb: pransninja: everything is explained in chapter 2 and 3.
2017-12-29T02:48:14Z pjb: That's because it's defined to be a special variable that is bound to the last form that is evaluated in the REPL.
2017-12-29T02:48:30Z pjb: See also ++ +++ * ** *** / // /// and -
2017-12-29T02:50:43Z parjanya: is there a way to mark if I want a symbol to be interpreted either as a variable or a function?
2017-12-29T02:51:23Z parjanya: or is it just based on the syntax?
2017-12-29T02:52:18Z _death: you can have a symbol be interpreted as any form using symbol macros
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2017-12-29T02:52:48Z _death: (define-symbol-macro now (get-universal-time)) then type now RET a few times
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2017-12-29T02:54:18Z pjb: parjanya: it's based on the syntax.  In the first position of an applicative list, it's interpreted as the name of an operator (function, macro or special operator).  In other positions, as the name of a variable (or depending on the macro or special operator).
2017-12-29T02:54:28Z parjanya: I mean, if I (defun a-test (lalala) lalala) and (defparameter a-test "a string") and do (a-test a-test)
2017-12-29T02:54:56Z pjb: And then of course, as mentionned by _death, there are symbol macros, but also reader macros that can distort your senses.
2017-12-29T02:55:16Z parjanya: if I do (a-test a-test) the first one will be the function, the other one the variable, but I wonder if there is a way to say that explicitly, like when one uses 'a-test to just get the symbol
2017-12-29T02:55:39Z parjanya: pjb: I see!
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2017-12-29T02:56:02Z _death: you can use the FUNCTION operator to designate a function.. (function +) ... a shorthand for this operator is the reader macro #' .. so #'+ will also work
2017-12-29T02:56:33Z _death: so try (a-test #'a-test)
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2017-12-29T02:56:36Z pjb: parjanya: not really in general. In the case of global special variables, you can get the value with (symbol-value 'a-test)  and for global functions, you can get it with (symbol-function 'a-test), so in that specific case, (a-test a-test) can be replaced by (funcall (symbol-function 'a-test) (symbol-value 'a-test))
2017-12-29T02:56:48Z pjb: But this wouldn't work for local lexical functions and variables.
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2017-12-29T02:58:12Z parjanya: that’s so neat
2017-12-29T02:58:39Z parjanya: I’m still to understand *why* I do like lisp this much, hah
2017-12-29T02:59:22Z pransninja: Talking to a friend about lisp and he ask "does it has  a GC?" har har har.
2017-12-29T03:00:05Z pransninja: Yeah, it sure does. John McCarthy is OG GC.
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2017-12-29T03:03:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisp, for me, was eye-opening because it disabused me of two things: (1) compiled languages need to be statically typed and (2) compiled languages have to have a slow feedback loop.
2017-12-29T03:04:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: It was also very satisfying to find a language where I could actually write concurrent programs, since most of the other languages I've used have some form of GIL to make one's life difficutl
2017-12-29T03:05:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: <C-e><C-t>
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2017-12-29T03:05:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-29T03:05:48Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: There is no such thing as a "compiled language".
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2017-12-29T03:06:07Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And it is a bad idea to pretend there is, because it gives people the wrong idea.
2017-12-29T03:06:37Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Then they will think like this: Lisp => interactive => interpreted => slow.
2017-12-29T03:06:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I should have put that in my list of things :)
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2017-12-29T03:07:43Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It is very important to let people (especially your typical ignorant programmers) that most modern Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so that the resulting speed is comparable to that of compiled C.
2017-12-29T03:08:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I like taking something like (defun foo (a b) (+ a b))
2017-12-29T03:08:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then disassembling it for someone
2017-12-29T03:08:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then I recompile the function with (declare (speed 3) (safety 0)) and show the difference in the disassembly
2017-12-29T03:08:53Z beach: Those ignorant programmers will of course always have an excuse to stay away from Common Lisp, but making sure they understand this issue gives them one fewer reasons to do so.
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2017-12-29T03:09:28Z _death: you can also mention printf vs. FORMAT, and C's lack of compiler macros and of FORMATTER :)
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2017-12-29T03:10:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, emacs macrostep expander is pretty cool when people complain about debugging macros
2017-12-29T03:11:13Z pransninja: beach: Compile on the fly is called JIT and it is not exactly on par with native code.
2017-12-29T03:11:18Z pransninja: There is still compiling involved.
2017-12-29T03:11:26Z pransninja: It is really fast, true, but it is no native code.
2017-12-29T03:11:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, this is different
2017-12-29T03:11:58Z pransninja: Please explain? :)
2017-12-29T03:12:00Z beach: pransninja: Most modern Common Lisp systems compile to native code.
2017-12-29T03:12:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Common Lisp implementations generally have a compiler that turns your lisp code into machine code
2017-12-29T03:12:24Z pransninja: right
2017-12-29T03:12:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: In fact, sbcl has its own assembler and disassembler
2017-12-29T03:12:27Z pransninja: then it is not on the fly?
2017-12-29T03:12:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, when you evaluate something in a REPL, it's compiled and executed
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2017-12-29T03:13:05Z _death: pransninja: you can also compile things on the fly, the language is available at all times..
2017-12-29T03:13:07Z pransninja: What does on the fly means?
2017-12-29T03:13:13Z beach: pransninja: Perhaps you are one of those programmers I referred to who think that interactive implies interpreted.
2017-12-29T03:13:22Z pransninja: Huh?
2017-12-29T03:13:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: So it's "on the fly", but not in the way a tracing JIT compiles on the fly: e.g. it doesn't take execution patterns into account to determine the compilation
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2017-12-29T03:13:29Z pransninja: no need to get personal, buddy.
2017-12-29T03:13:31Z loke: pransninja: It means "automatically when needed". As opposed to the user having to go through a manual compilation phase.
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2017-12-29T03:14:05Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: Right, but does every JIT has to be tracing JIT?
2017-12-29T03:14:13Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: That definition does get a bit muddy in the case of ABCL though. :-)
2017-12-29T03:14:15Z beach: pransninja: It means that between the time you validate an input expression and the time you see the result of executing it, the Common Lisp system has turned it into real native code.
2017-12-29T03:14:54Z pransninja: So it is compiled, what does "on the fly" technically means?
2017-12-29T03:14:59Z beach: Since it *IS* native code, it is by definition "on par" with native code.
2017-12-29T03:15:06Z pransninja: I understand that REPL is powerful, but if it compiles, then it compiles.
2017-12-29T03:15:13Z beach: It does.
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2017-12-29T03:15:24Z beach: ... in most modern Common Lisp implementations.
2017-12-29T03:15:25Z pransninja: So "on the fly" means nothing?
2017-12-29T03:15:42Z beach: pransninja: It means that between the time you validate an input expression and the time you see the result of executing it, the Common Lisp system has turned it into real native code.
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2017-12-29T03:16:03Z _death: pransninja: (let ((code (progn (print "Enter code: ") (read)))) (disassemble (compile nil `(lambda () ,code))))
2017-12-29T03:16:15Z pransninja: And how is that different than "offline compiling"? in contrast to your "on the fly"?
2017-12-29T03:16:35Z pransninja: Just trying to understand here.
2017-12-29T03:16:57Z beach: pransninja: If you define "offline compiling" I may try to explain.
2017-12-29T03:17:16Z pransninja: it means nothing.
2017-12-29T03:17:20Z pransninja: It just means compiling.
2017-12-29T03:17:26Z beach: Then I can't explain the difference.
2017-12-29T03:17:32Z pransninja: I just wanted to see how "on the fly" is different than your standard compiling.
2017-12-29T03:17:53Z pransninja: Look, I think REPL is sexy, I am loving it, this is my first experience with such a "live" coding way.
2017-12-29T03:18:10Z pransninja: I have used REPLs before, but this level of integration with text editor and such is dope.
2017-12-29T03:18:11Z Bike: using a repl is a different way to program from writing a program and throwing it at gcc or whatever, as you've already seen
2017-12-29T03:18:11Z _death: pransninja: port my program to C
2017-12-29T03:18:13Z Bike: that's about it, probably
2017-12-29T03:18:16Z beach: pransninja: Most people think of compilation as a batch compiler producing files containing object code that then has to be linked in order to produce an executable.  I use "on the fly" as a contrast to that.
2017-12-29T03:18:18Z pransninja: I just want to understand what "on the fly" means?
2017-12-29T03:19:09Z beach: pransninja: I am more interested in why you think the Common Lisp compiler produces something that is not "on par" with native code.  Can you elaborate on that?
2017-12-29T03:19:11Z loke: pransninja: As I said earlier, "on the fly" means that it's done automagically, without you having to go through a compilation phase (like in C, when you have to run "make" separately before testing the program)
2017-12-29T03:20:03Z pransninja: beach: The common meaning of "on the fly" is JIT, which is on par with native code, but not quite.
2017-12-29T03:20:25Z beach: What makes it not on par with it?
2017-12-29T03:20:34Z pransninja: JIT is not free.
2017-12-29T03:20:45Z pransninja: The compiling, and often the tracing involved, takes CPU cycles.
2017-12-29T03:20:49Z beach: pransninja: Maybe you have a different concept of "native code" that most people here do.
2017-12-29T03:21:02Z loke: pransninja: Actually, JIT can (and has been shown to) produce more efficient code than static compilation. That said, most Common Lisp implementations does not use a JIT (only ABCL does, as far as I know)
2017-12-29T03:21:06Z beach: pransninja: That is why what the Common Lisp compiler does is not JIT as you were told.
2017-12-29T03:21:10Z pransninja: In contrast to "offline" compiling where you just have native program, and maybe a runtime, and you CPU just deals with that.
2017-12-29T03:21:23Z _death: pransninja: in Lisp we can have things compiled JIT or AOT, as we please
2017-12-29T03:21:27Z pransninja: loke: "efficient" doesn't mean fast.
2017-12-29T03:21:31Z beach: pransninja: What is your definition of "native code"?
2017-12-29T03:21:35Z loke: pransninja: I meant fast.
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2017-12-29T03:21:36Z pransninja: loke: For some problems JIT can be faster, but JIT is not free.
2017-12-29T03:21:45Z pransninja: beach: CPU native instruction sets? huh.
2017-12-29T03:22:01Z loke: pransninja: True. But it's mostly irrelavent in the discussion of Common Lisp, since most CL's does not use a JIT anyway.
2017-12-29T03:22:03Z beach: pransninja: Then, the Common Lisp compiler produced native code.
2017-12-29T03:22:15Z pransninja: loke: Yeah, so calling it "on the fly" compile is bullcrap.
2017-12-29T03:22:27Z pransninja: It is compiled. simple stuff. :)
2017-12-29T03:22:29Z loke: pransninja: Not really... Let me show you. Do you have SBCL in front of you?
2017-12-29T03:22:34Z beach just lost interest in this discussion. 
2017-12-29T03:22:49Z pransninja: I am actually running it with vlime to go through PCL book.
2017-12-29T03:22:50Z pransninja: So yes.
2017-12-29T03:23:15Z pransninja: If it is not JIT it is not "On the fly".
2017-12-29T03:23:22Z loke: pransninja: OK, type the following into the REPL: (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (1+ x))
2017-12-29T03:23:40Z loke: pransninja: Then type the following:
2017-12-29T03:23:45Z loke: pransninja: (disassemble #'foo)
2017-12-29T03:23:47Z pransninja: Is that a fork bomb? lel.
2017-12-29T03:24:00Z loke: pransninja: No. it just declares a function which adds 1 to the argument.
2017-12-29T03:24:14Z loke: The decond command prints the code that the compiler generated.
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2017-12-29T03:24:27Z pransninja: loke: Yeah, so I got to run disassemble with my text editor, I see the disassemble.
2017-12-29T03:24:35Z pransninja: disassembly.
2017-12-29T03:24:42Z loke: pransninja: Exactly. But you never invoked the COMPILE function, did you?
2017-12-29T03:24:48Z pransninja: lol
2017-12-29T03:24:52Z pransninja: That doesn't make a difference.
2017-12-29T03:24:56Z loke: pransninja: That's what "on the fly" means.
2017-12-29T03:24:58Z pransninja: It is still compiled and not JITed.
2017-12-29T03:25:04Z pransninja: What is so confusing about that?
2017-12-29T03:25:08Z loke: pransninja: Correct. No one said it's JIT'ed
2017-12-29T03:25:21Z _death: pransninja: you can have it JITed if you want
2017-12-29T03:25:21Z parjanya: what’s difficult about "on the fly" meaning "without having to invoke make and then execute"?
2017-12-29T03:25:29Z pransninja: Many IDEs allows you to do see "disassembly" or even "run" compiled languages with "invoking compile" directly.
2017-12-29T03:25:45Z pransninja: That doesn't change the fact that the language you're using is compiled.
2017-12-29T03:26:00Z loke: pransninja: Indeede. But none (or at least very few) of those languages allow you to recompile code _while_the_program_is_running_
2017-12-29T03:26:03Z parjanya: why should it "change that fact"?
2017-12-29T03:26:09Z pransninja: loke: Shall I repeat, "on the fly compile" means "JIT".
2017-12-29T03:26:19Z beach: There is no such thing as a "compiled language".  That has to do with the implementation strategy.
2017-12-29T03:26:19Z parjanya: to whom?
2017-12-29T03:27:02Z pransninja: beach: Yeah, which is why I said "the language is compiled" not that "you're using a compiled language".
2017-12-29T03:27:03Z pransninja: Huh?
2017-12-29T03:27:18Z pransninja: parjanya: To whom it does not mean JIT?
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2017-12-29T03:27:44Z pransninja: Searching for "on the fly compiler" and see what your fav' search engine brings up: Just-in-time Compiling.
2017-12-29T03:27:57Z pransninja: You guys are ludicrous.
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2017-12-29T03:28:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: pransninja: languages aren't compiled. Almost any language can be implemented by a compiler or an interpreter
2017-12-29T03:28:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: for example, there are C interpreters that execute C without compiling it
2017-12-29T03:29:02Z pransninja: Let's not split hair please.
2017-12-29T03:29:13Z pransninja: You could argue the semantics of English with me and I will lose.
2017-12-29T03:29:13Z beach: Oh, that's a good one.
2017-12-29T03:29:20Z _death: pransninja: here is a program: (defvar *program* '(lambda (x) (1+ x))) .. it is not yet compiled
2017-12-29T03:29:22Z loke: pransninja: You're arguing sematics now. You have some very specific definitions of certain words that does not exactly match the definitions everybody else is using. Now, you may think that our definitions are wrong, but that doesn't matter. I think you have a rough uinderstanding of the way Lisp does things, and it doesn't matter what you or I call it, no?
2017-12-29T03:29:33Z pransninja: But calling anything "on the fly compile" that is not "JIT" is bullshit.
2017-12-29T03:29:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: This isn't, though, gcc is a compiler, but C isn't a "compiled language"
2017-12-29T03:29:35Z pransninja: I am done. :)
2017-12-29T03:29:40Z pransninja: I will come back if I have lisp question tho.
2017-12-29T03:29:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: havefun :)
2017-12-29T03:30:06Z _death: pransninja: now we have arrived at the moment to compile it, so we compile it, just in time: (compile nil *program*) and call it (funcall * 123)
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2017-12-29T03:31:17Z pransninja: _death: It doesn't matter what. On The Fly Compile is a synonym for JIT, and JIT is basically dynamic translation, if you're not doing  dynamic translation, you're not compiling on the fly.
2017-12-29T03:31:28Z pransninja: What is so hard to understand about that sentence?
2017-12-29T03:31:38Z loke: pransninja: OK, fine. But what would you call the SBCL method then?
2017-12-29T03:31:42Z _death: pransninja: you seem to be hung up on your own private language
2017-12-29T03:31:53Z loke: pransninja: We need to call it SOMETHING, and if you're not happy with our definition, what do you suggest instead?
2017-12-29T03:32:19Z pransninja: _death: I said, search for "on fly compiler" in whatever search engine you like and see what the first result is. If it is not JIT, I will eat my banana.
2017-12-29T03:32:29Z pransninja: loke: It is called REPL?
2017-12-29T03:32:41Z parjanya: the funny thing is you decreeing the meaning of an expression and saying that we shouldn’t argue semantics ; )
2017-12-29T03:33:36Z pransninja: I am not decreeing, I have read "on fly compile" refereed JIT that I struggle to see how anyone would think it could mean anything else. :P
2017-12-29T03:33:46Z loke: pransninja: No. The REPL means read-eval-print-loop. It's just the commandline interface. Even fully interpreted implementations have a REPL.
2017-12-29T03:34:04Z beach: loke: I admire your patience.
2017-12-29T03:34:10Z loke: pransninja: The first non-Java-related hit for on-the-fyl compilation was this article: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/abhinaba/2006/02/09/c-writing-extendable-applications-using-on-the-fly-compilation/
2017-12-29T03:34:13Z pjb: and even fully compiled implementations have a REPL.
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2017-12-29T03:34:33Z pransninja: now we have a new term "fully compiled".
2017-12-29T03:34:38Z pransninja: Jebus Cries.
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2017-12-29T03:34:59Z pjb: Some implementation compile when load but not in the repl.
2017-12-29T03:35:05Z loke: pransninja: That artcile discusses calling the C# compiler dynamically, in a way that is not too disimilar from the Common Lisp way of doing it.
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2017-12-29T03:35:19Z pjb: Some implementation just perform minimal compilation, not "full" compilation.
2017-12-29T03:35:24Z _death: pransninja: there is ambiguity in the world
2017-12-29T03:35:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: "on the fly" is sort of a colloquialism, so one generally figures out what it means by looking at the context it's used in, not by forcing a certain meaning onto the phrase wherever you find it.
2017-12-29T03:35:45Z pjb: A minimal compilation still involves an "source-level" interpreter for execution.
2017-12-29T03:36:11Z pjb: A compiler may still involve a byte-code interpreter or some other form of interpreting for execution.
2017-12-29T03:37:42Z pransninja: loke: I somehow feel like "Just-in-time compilation" Article on wikipedia is also not "Java" related.
2017-12-29T03:37:43Z _death: pransninja: but you're a programmer! so we can resolve the ambiguity using code.. so please, tell us what you mean using code
2017-12-29T03:37:45Z pransninja: But whatever floats your goat.
2017-12-29T03:37:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Common Lisp implementations will often call the compiler "automatically" when trying to evaluate a chunk of code and, on the fly is a reasonable way of talking about this.  In a JIT, the compiler is called at runtime in response to observed patterns of execution, which is another thing to reasonably call "on the fly" compilation.
2017-12-29T03:37:59Z loke: pransninja: I added -java to the google search term
2017-12-29T03:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, whatever :)
2017-12-29T03:38:21Z whoman: ^_^
2017-12-29T03:38:49Z loke: pransninja: But this all very “whatever” since you have made your point clear, and while we don't agree with you, I think we understand what you mean.
2017-12-29T03:40:18Z loke: pransninja: Perhaps after using Lisp for a while, you can start to understand why we feel it's important to make these distinctions. Even if you refuse to use our terminology, it will help you explain things to us.
2017-12-29T03:40:54Z pransninja: Look, my first comment after asking a question when I got here was that I love this whole "live" programming with a REPL + editor setup.
2017-12-29T03:40:58Z pransninja: So it is not that I don't see the value;.
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2017-12-29T03:41:25Z pransninja: I even expressed my concerns about how my everyday programming language envs would feel like after this.
2017-12-29T03:41:32Z pransninja: So not arguing that.
2017-12-29T03:42:03Z pransninja: But there is no point in repeating that "on the fly" means JIT pretty much just about anywhere I have read it.
2017-12-29T03:42:07Z loke: pransninja: All right. So let's just drop the terminology discussion, and focus on the important points: How to ensure that you feel confortable with Lisp.
2017-12-29T03:42:12Z pransninja: If lispers have a different meaning, all good with me.
2017-12-29T03:42:43Z loke: pransninja: I wouldn't say Lispers have a very “different” definition. More nuanced perhaps.
2017-12-29T03:43:03Z pransninja: fair enough
2017-12-29T03:43:27Z whoman: nevermind lisp, english is all macros
2017-12-29T03:43:57Z loke: pransninja: And if you want to twist your head even further, remember that ABCL is an implementation of Common Lisp whose compiler generates Java bytecodes, at runtime.
2017-12-29T03:44:07Z aeth: "on the fly" can be used to implement JIT, right? Is it possible that a language that compiles to CL could be JIT even when the implementation itself is AOT? Or do CL implementations not have enough introspection?
2017-12-29T03:44:12Z loke: pransninja: ...which is then executed by the JVM which does... well... JIT. :-)
2017-12-29T03:44:38Z whoman: how many wings are on the fly
2017-12-29T03:45:11Z _death: JIT flies like an arrow
2017-12-29T03:45:22Z loke: pransninja: So as you can see, at that point it simply doesn't make sense to even talk about the distinction, because ABCL is pretty much “all of the above”.
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2017-12-29T03:46:45Z aeth: Fruit flies like a banana
2017-12-29T03:46:51Z whoman: for each dictionary entry linking to other entries, forever. how do we even resolve that macro ?
2017-12-29T03:47:36Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-12-29T03:48:03Z _death: whoman: it's a trilemma..
2017-12-29T03:49:53Z _death: whoman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippan_Trilemma
2017-12-29T03:50:02Z whoman: let's evaluate in one dimension =)
2017-12-29T03:51:01Z whoman: ah
2017-12-29T03:54:16Z _death: wikipedia is terrible at explaining things.. but you have a starting point :)
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2017-12-29T03:56:11Z whoman: it is all good, i am a starting point
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2017-12-29T04:01:50Z pjb: (defun eval (expr) (funcall (coerce `(lambda () ,expr) 'function))) is a valid CL:EVAL implementation.
2017-12-29T04:02:27Z pjb: Notice it doesn't imply compilation.  Coercing to the type function doesn't imply anything about interpretation or compilation.
2017-12-29T04:03:08Z pjb: (defun eval (expr) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () ,expr))))  is another implementation that explicitely invokes the compiler.
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2017-12-29T04:05:56Z whoman: why not just (defmacro eval (expr) ..)? =)
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2017-12-29T04:29:10Z pjb: whoman: (funcall (function eval) '(+ 1 2)) #| --> 3 |#
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2017-12-29T04:29:27Z pjb: whoman: (mapcar 'eval '((+ 1 2) (* 3 4))) #| --> (3 12) |#
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2017-12-29T04:31:08Z aeth: _death: Ime, for technical subjects Wikipedia is good at explaining things, but bad at teaching things. It's okay to read the article on Foo if you already learned about Foo from somewhere else.
2017-12-29T04:31:35Z PuercoPop: oi, I'm having trouble writing to an unix socket. I've disabled buffering and send finish-output jic. Am I missing something else? https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/709ac450430cc7097d50d4c02554d304
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2017-12-29T04:46:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the best way to get bindings for a C library? wrapping the types with the groveler than manually writing bindings for the functions?
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2017-12-29T04:55:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, is it possible to extend slime-selector?
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2017-12-29T04:57:07Z beach: Or you can write a Common Lisp version of the library that would then benefit the entire Common Lisp community.
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2017-12-29T05:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm experimenting with osx, so that would sort of defeat the purpose
2017-12-29T05:09:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: My goal is to figure out the objective-c runtime well enough that I can fix the beagle backend for clim
2017-12-29T05:09:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/clim/mcclim/
2017-12-29T05:09:37Z beach: I see.
2017-12-29T05:09:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, hopefully, remove the dependency on CCL
2017-12-29T05:10:24Z whoman: i would imagine at least most of slime is extensible
2017-12-29T05:11:01Z beach: whoman: Is that a new discussion topic, or is it somehow related to what fiddlerwoaroof is doing?
2017-12-29T05:11:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I just discovered slime-selector-methods
2017-12-29T05:11:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: no, I asked if slime-selector is extensible
2017-12-29T05:11:27Z beach: Oh, right, missed it.
2017-12-29T05:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: because I wanted an easy way to jump to the asd file
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2017-12-29T05:14:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I came up with this which seems to do the trick: http://termbin.com/la0b
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2017-12-29T06:53:03Z shka: good morning
2017-12-29T06:53:27Z shka: i need boxed value, what is the smallest box possible?
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2017-12-29T06:55:13Z shka: would that be cons cell?
2017-12-29T06:55:52Z Bike: you could make a struct with one slot.
2017-12-29T06:57:08Z shka: would that be smaller?
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2017-12-29T06:59:17Z Bike: maybe
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2017-12-29T06:59:32Z beach: shka: I am pretty sure that depends on the implementation.  What do you need it for?
2017-12-29T06:59:40Z Bike: but maybe not, who knows
2017-12-29T06:59:51Z shka: Bike: right
2017-12-29T07:00:09Z White_Flame: I've used the cons cell for the purpose.  It tends not to be just the smallest in memory footprint, but in code too
2017-12-29T07:00:45Z White_Flame: used it for a locative slot container, basically
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2017-12-29T07:02:54Z shka: beach: i need to track ownership for shared objects, owner can mutate his object, rest has to copy, i figured that i can stick gensym into box and then add this box to every object. Finalizer of owner will set content of box to nil to indicate that ownership can be taken by any other object.
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2017-12-29T07:04:20Z shka: act of ownership acquisition should be atomic
2017-12-29T07:05:10Z beach: Sounds complicated, but a CONS cell should do.
2017-12-29T07:05:26Z beach: You probably need either CAS or a lock for that.
2017-12-29T07:05:55Z shka: yeah, i would use CAS
2017-12-29T07:06:14Z shka: and OFC there is no trivial-atomic-ops
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2017-12-29T07:09:46Z shka: beach: anyway, it is not that complicated, and all it boils down is to side effect containment. Combined with lazy approach it gives optimized functional containers.
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2017-12-29T07:10:59Z shka: anyway, i got to go
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2017-12-29T07:11:42Z shka: beach: if you are interested in this: http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-clojure-transients
2017-12-29T07:12:18Z beach: shka: Thanks.  Some other time.  I am busy right now.
2017-12-29T07:12:26Z shka: cl-ds has something like this, but my current approach is semi-broken
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2017-12-29T07:13:27Z shka: (that is: it does not prevent code from working, but it is a little bit pointless at certain point)
2017-12-29T07:13:54Z shka: beach: by right now, you meant all the time? :D
2017-12-29T07:14:12Z shka: anyway, i really need to go
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2017-12-29T09:24:17Z codesine: Hi all
2017-12-29T09:24:29Z beach: Hello codesine.
2017-12-29T09:26:35Z codesine: Anyone here atm?
2017-12-29T09:26:48Z beach: Of course.  Plenty.
2017-12-29T09:27:33Z codesine: What’s a good book or single point of entry for Common Lisp programming especially from a math background
2017-12-29T09:28:21Z beach: It depends on whether the person already knows some other programming language.
2017-12-29T09:28:49Z codesine: C++ / matlab
2017-12-29T09:29:15Z beach: Most people here would recommend PCL then.
2017-12-29T09:29:19Z codesine: Especially from a functional aspect
2017-12-29T09:29:26Z beach: minion: Please tell codesine about PCL.
2017-12-29T09:29:26Z minion: codesine: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-12-29T09:29:43Z beach: codesine: Common Lisp is not considered a particularly function language in that sense.
2017-12-29T09:30:07Z beach: codesine: So you are going to have a hard time finding a book that does functional programming only in Common Lisp.
2017-12-29T09:32:14Z beach: "functional programming only" as opposed to "both functional, imperative, and object-oriented programming"
2017-12-29T09:33:21Z beach: codesine: I should have said: Common Lisp is not considered a particularly functionAL language in that sense.
2017-12-29T09:33:31Z codesine: Ah
2017-12-29T09:33:45Z beach: codesine: Modern Common Lisp code uses CLOS-style object-oriented programming a lot.
2017-12-29T09:33:50Z codesine: Friend with heavy mah background interested in lisp or scheme maybe
2017-12-29T09:33:55Z Zhivago: CL is procedural. :)
2017-12-29T09:33:58Z codesine: math*
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2017-12-29T09:34:37Z beach: codesine: Well, since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, the opinions here are biased.
2017-12-29T09:35:47Z beach: codesine: Functional programming is one of the paradigms that Common Lisp supports, but I think it will be hard to find a book that uses Common Lisp and that is all or even mostly about functional programming.
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2017-12-29T09:38:39Z beach: codesine: One important use of functional programming in Common Lisp is in macro expanders, because you typically don't want macro expanders to have side effects.  Therefore, a book like On Lisp mostly uses functional programming, but it is a very special use case for that style.
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2017-12-29T09:41:17Z beach: Scheme is also not particularly functional, but maybe Scheme books emphasize that style more often.
2017-12-29T09:44:58Z Zhivago: I think it's more that recursion looks more functional than iteration, to people who don't realize that iteration is recursion.
2017-12-29T09:47:44Z _death: that cons is a recursive data structure helps
2017-12-29T09:48:25Z Zhivago: Well, by that token, so are C strings.
2017-12-29T09:50:27Z _death: but those are bounded
2017-12-29T09:50:53Z Shinmera: What's a little buffer overrun between friends
2017-12-29T09:51:33Z Zhivago: Doesn't change that you can recursively decompose them by pointer arithmetic.
2017-12-29T09:52:25Z _death: and char needs to be your main data type then
2017-12-29T09:52:49Z Zhivago: Well, you can generalize it to sequences of data within arrays.
2017-12-29T09:52:49Z _death: and you can't use 0 without breaking that abstraction
2017-12-29T09:53:14Z Zhivago: And since all data in C is effectively in arrays ...
2017-12-29T09:54:03Z _death: and since you have to maintain explicit ownership of objects..
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2017-12-29T09:54:17Z _death: C isn't terribly convenient for such style
2017-12-29T09:55:15Z loke: s/ for such style//
2017-12-29T09:55:16Z Zhivago: Well, C isn't convenient for anything, so ...
2017-12-29T09:55:49Z Shinmera: It's somewhat convenient for getting a simple app running "directly" on every major OS
2017-12-29T09:56:13Z _death: C is great for greeting worlds
2017-12-29T09:56:29Z _death: plus it's another language whose community cares about stability
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2017-12-29T09:59:45Z sigjuice: C is syntactic sugar for memory :p
2017-12-29T10:00:06Z Shinmera: So's everything in the end
2017-12-29T10:02:32Z _death: it's useful in helping (read "practically forcing") people think about representations that may not be immediately obvious
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2017-12-29T10:04:36Z _death: especially in comparison to Lisp..
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2017-12-29T10:15:38Z whoman: C is close to the ... von neu? wait.. asm? x86? way of doing things. close to how the machine works, more so with our current machines than lisp afaik
2017-12-29T10:17:11Z _death: maybe it's close to how really old machines used to work
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2017-12-29T10:18:14Z whoman: C or Lisp ?
2017-12-29T10:18:29Z _death: which one do you think
2017-12-29T10:18:39Z whoman: well lisp is older, and it needs a vm.
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2017-12-29T10:23:05Z p_l: C requires a VM that simulates PDP-11 ;)
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2017-12-29T10:24:45Z p_l: VM is just a catch-all for the environment specified to be used by language so you have simple replicated target to write your applications against
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2017-12-29T10:25:21Z whoman: or could i say, the unoptimized disasm of C more closely resembles the machines instructions than for Lisp ?
2017-12-29T10:25:44Z _death: maybe these machines were more optimized towards C..
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2017-12-29T10:25:59Z whoman: yea..
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2017-12-29T10:26:23Z whoman: would that be the same for GPUs as their shading languages are kinda like C?
2017-12-29T10:26:48Z whoman knowns nothing of their disasm, stuck on opengl 2.1 for life 
2017-12-29T10:27:40Z whoman: no lambda cpu or cons chips ?
2017-12-29T10:27:43Z p_l: nope. unoptimized output of C also tends to not look very modern, though compilers kinda cheat there by not implementing truly unoptimized form in output
2017-12-29T10:28:39Z whoman: yea ? cuz that part is a bit of an obstacle for me with lisp as i grew up with C, but i really dont see how lisp is any different, if i grew up on that instead
2017-12-29T10:30:22Z p_l: C gives an illusion of being very low level, but I think it hasn't been true since it left PDP-11
2017-12-29T10:30:48Z p_l: "standard" C, among other things, disallows direct access to memory
2017-12-29T10:31:21Z _death: that's why no one wrote "standard" C
2017-12-29T10:31:45Z p_l: _death: I know one person who trolled C programmers with standard-compliant C-in-Perl implementation
2017-12-29T10:31:52Z p_l: quite a lot of software even ran on it
2017-12-29T10:32:53Z _death: unsigned char far *screen = (unsigned char far *)0xB800; // fun times
2017-12-29T10:33:06Z beach: So in fact, for applications, C is inconvenient, and for "system programming", you have to write nonconforming code to do what you want.
2017-12-29T10:33:22Z p_l: yeah, also known as "UB" and "compiler is allowed to do anything, including murdering your pet goat, upon encountering that line"
2017-12-29T10:34:10Z whoman: hmm. c is still a bit low level though ?
2017-12-29T10:35:03Z p_l: It's low level in the sense of making you worry about irrelevant (to application you're writing) concerns
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2017-12-29T10:35:19Z p_l: which is, I think, best description of what low-level is
2017-12-29T10:35:42Z _death: beach: the code can be conforming but still use implementation defined behavior
2017-12-29T10:36:42Z whoman ruminates on that 
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2017-12-29T10:37:15Z p_l: for popular definition of "systems programming", the code is pretty much always full of non-conforming bits, or at least "uses a VM implemented in nonconforming code" as runtime
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2017-12-29T10:41:09Z _death: I think C, Forth, and assembly are prime candidates for an embedded program.. of course, you could use Lisp to generate the code ;)
2017-12-29T10:42:35Z beach: _death: Fair enough.
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2017-12-29T10:43:59Z p_l points to Roomba
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2017-12-29T10:44:33Z p_l: _death: assembly doesn't count, since it's essentially an intermediate form of a program generated by something else
2017-12-29T10:44:54Z JuanDaugherty: it is?
2017-12-29T10:44:55Z Shinmera: hand_written.asm
2017-12-29T10:45:15Z _death: p_l: I generated a lot of assembly by myself
2017-12-29T10:45:42Z p_l: _death: yeah, but you weren't writing opcodes manually to be executed :)
2017-12-29T10:45:48Z JuanDaugherty: i know it seems that way these days
2017-12-29T10:45:57Z _death: p_l: I sure did..
2017-12-29T10:46:22Z p_l: that's not assembly then, just programming the way before assemblers gave us useful intermediate
2017-12-29T10:46:23Z _death: p_l: especially when the assembler didn't support some new instructions :)
2017-12-29T10:47:39Z p_l: I mean that assembler, in its typical form, doesn't count as essentially an intermediate for talking native language of the chip
2017-12-29T10:47:57Z p_l: Yes, you can handwrite it
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2017-12-29T10:48:28Z p_l: hell, PDP-10 bootstrap was handled by handwriting opcodes into registers then swapping them with memory
2017-12-29T10:48:38Z _death: p_l: right.. you could use Lisp to generate the machine code, not the assembly text
2017-12-29T10:49:20Z p_l: _death: and arguably every lisp compiler that generates native code does something like that, though they sometimes happen to not show it directly
2017-12-29T10:49:20Z _death: usually by writing an assembler..
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2017-12-29T10:50:23Z _death: p_l: yep.. the other day I pasted https://gist.github.com/death/5ec259ef473b982898a3c5e36b21b1cd
2017-12-29T10:50:40Z p_l: even Lisp Machines had assembly program, though it was quite integrated into language
2017-12-29T10:53:14Z p_l: (in the form of "subprimitives")
2017-12-29T10:53:43Z Shinmera: beach: Do you have an assembler for SICL yet?
2017-12-29T10:54:12Z phoe: isn't that more of a Cleavir question rather than a SICL one?
2017-12-29T10:54:19Z Shinmera: Not really
2017-12-29T10:54:45Z phoe: oh wait, assembler, as in something that allows you to play with assembly directly?
2017-12-29T10:54:58Z phoe: and not as something that compiles higher-level code into machine code?
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2017-12-29T10:55:14Z Shinmera: An assembler as in, something that takes asm and turns it into machine code.
2017-12-29T10:55:16Z p_l: well, Cleavir could use said assembler to generate specific machine code
2017-12-29T10:55:35Z phoe: I see.
2017-12-29T10:56:34Z _death: p_l: I also found Kragen Sitaker's urscheme implementation, which generates assembly text, to be very neat.. http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/urscheme/compiler.scm.html
2017-12-29T10:59:15Z p_l: I'd love to get my hands on the lisp subsumption architecture compilers
2017-12-29T11:00:11Z p_l: like the one that runs Roomba
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2017-12-29T11:05:34Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, it's an independent repository: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluster
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2017-12-29T11:05:58Z Shinmera: Ah, nice
2017-12-29T11:06:20Z beach: If anyone wants to help out with the machine description(s), feel free.
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2017-12-29T11:06:54Z p_l: btw, does anyone know a single place where I could read about R. Scott McIntyre's CL libs?
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2017-12-29T11:46:17Z phoe: What's the standard function for checking if STRING1 is a continuous part of STRING2?
2017-12-29T11:46:35Z phoe: SEARCH. Thanks.
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2017-12-29T11:55:48Z cess11:   '''''''''''''''
2017-12-29T11:56:12Z cess11: Right, cat talk.
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2017-12-29T15:49:17Z jmercouris: Is it more expensive to pass around a large list as an arugment instead of a boolean? or is the cost the same?
2017-12-29T15:50:02Z Xach: jmercouris: it is the same.
2017-12-29T15:50:23Z jmercouris: Xach: Ok, good to know, thank you
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2017-12-29T15:50:59Z Shinmera: Why would anything cost more to pass than anything else
2017-12-29T15:51:12Z jmercouris: Shinmera: You should question all assumptions
2017-12-29T15:51:22Z jmercouris: Otherwise you'll never be good at debugging :)
2017-12-29T15:51:31Z Shinmera: You should also try to answer your own questions
2017-12-29T15:51:49Z jmercouris: Shinmera: IIRC this is a community designed to help and support each other
2017-12-29T15:52:06Z jmercouris: Whenever someone has a question here that they ask, I always answer, refraining from saying RTFM
2017-12-29T15:52:22Z jmercouris: Additionally, my question is complex and implementation dependent, what am I to do, spin up an instance of each implementation and test it?
2017-12-29T15:52:46Z jmercouris: I don't pretend to be an expert, and I know when it is smarter to ask, rather than to fumble around
2017-12-29T15:52:47Z Shinmera: You still haven't answered my question
2017-12-29T15:53:12Z jmercouris: Shinmera: If you want to be real smart about it, consider an implementation that copies memory addresses when making a new caller
2017-12-29T15:53:26Z jmercouris: s/memory addresses/the contents of memory at addresses
2017-12-29T15:53:36Z beach: jmercouris: That would not be allowed.
2017-12-29T15:54:20Z jmercouris: beach: Well, I have no way of knowing that as I've never implemented a CL system from scratch
2017-12-29T15:54:52Z beach: You need to know that in order to be an application programmer.
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2017-12-29T15:55:24Z jmercouris: beach: There are most definitely implementations of programming languages that copy the contents of memory when making a call
2017-12-29T15:55:25Z beach: You need to know when EQ must return true.
2017-12-29T15:55:42Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, but the Common Lisp standard is very precise about it.
2017-12-29T15:56:08Z jmercouris: Well, this is just one example of how it MAY be more expensive, I see now very obviously why that is not the case in CL, but there are other scenarios I can think of
2017-12-29T15:56:25Z beach: Name two.
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2017-12-29T15:57:00Z Shinmera: There are cases when passing a value /at all/ is more expensive than not passing it. Such as when a value can be immediate within a block, but needs to be boxed across boundaries.
2017-12-29T15:57:11Z jmercouris: Consider an implementation that does some checking of the contents of arguments before calling them in a new function
2017-12-29T15:57:22Z jmercouris: This would likely increase with the size of the data structure being sent
2017-12-29T15:58:01Z jmercouris: Why might it be checking the arguments? Maybe it is checking that they have not been corrupted, perhaps the code is running on some lunar probe that is subject to solar radiation
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2017-12-29T15:59:06Z dim: it's ok to be lost in your own code and ask “stupid” questions to help debugging, we can be your rubber duck!
2017-12-29T15:59:20Z jmercouris: Consider a situation in which invoking a new caller will require the machine to begin paging memory on the hard disk, this means that now some amount of memory, entirely OS and implementation dependent will have to be moved to the HDD, how does the system decide? will one of the arguments be on disk while another is still in ram?
2017-12-29T15:59:23Z dim: (I know I tend to use this channel as a rubber duck, and hope that's still ok)
2017-12-29T16:00:06Z jmercouris: beach: I have provided two very plausible scenarios in which the size of the argument may cause strange behavior depending on the caching strategy of the implementation
2017-12-29T16:00:50Z jmercouris: The CL implementation is supposed to be a black box as far as I am concerned, I'm fairly confident that the spec does not say something along the lines of "function calling execution time shall not depend on the size of the arguments contained within the call"
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2017-12-29T16:01:20Z beach: jmercouris: With few exception, all arguments are the same size in Common Lisp.
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2017-12-29T16:01:50Z beach: jmercouris: Otherwise, you couldn't store them in a simple vector.
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2017-12-29T16:03:08Z jmercouris: beach: So, my situations are plausible then :P
2017-12-29T16:03:32Z beach: No, you keep referring to the size of the argument as being variable.  But it isn't.
2017-12-29T16:04:06Z jmercouris: Ok, let me rephrase, the size of the data represented by the argument
2017-12-29T16:04:19Z beach: But that data is not sent as an argument.
2017-12-29T16:04:31Z jmercouris: It is not, hence why no "performance" impact
2017-12-29T16:04:44Z jmercouris: But! We do not know what the implementation is doing with that data
2017-12-29T16:04:57Z jmercouris: Why might it not be doing parity checks as I suggested above?
2017-12-29T16:05:21Z jmercouris: If the safety of the system is important, and there is random solar radiation, it may be important
2017-12-29T16:05:31Z Shinmera: For all we know an implementation might just randomly insert SLEEP wherever it wants just to screw with you. How are we supposed to answer your question?
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2017-12-29T16:05:58Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Xach answered it just fine, in a practical manner, effectively he said "no, it will not cause a slow down"
2017-12-29T16:06:10Z jmercouris: if there was some catch, like "on ECL it will be slow due to some xyz" he would have said it I assume
2017-12-29T16:06:39Z jmercouris: I'm not asking about the CL spec, I'm asking about a reasonable CL implementation whether it will have an impact in real life
2017-12-29T16:07:10Z jmercouris: These questions might seem stupid, but I've seen a lot of counter-intuitive things that have made me question my sanity, so I prefer to be safe than sorry
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2017-12-29T16:09:48Z jmercouris: sorry for the off-topic rant
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2017-12-29T16:11:56Z Xach: jmercouris: it's not a stupid question, but one that displays deep ignorance.
2017-12-29T16:12:10Z Xach: An ignorance that needs correcting if progress is to continue.
2017-12-29T16:13:19Z Xach: And it has everything to do with the CL spec and the semantics of CL.
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2017-12-29T16:17:46Z Xach: Not every question is so revealing.
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2017-12-29T16:26:10Z ebrasca: Hi, how to decode 2-byte characters from octet array?
2017-12-29T16:27:41Z Xach: ebrasca: there are several ways. i like to use (logior (ash (aref array i) 8) (aref array (1+ i)))))
2017-12-29T16:27:49Z Xach: swapped if necessary.
2017-12-29T16:28:35Z warweasle: Xach: Is that better than parse-integer?
2017-12-29T16:29:13Z ebrasca: I like to get text from it.
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2017-12-29T16:29:23Z ebrasca: Sori for not writing it.
2017-12-29T16:29:44Z ebrasca: #(208 182 208 181 208 189 208 176) to string
2017-12-29T16:29:45Z Xach: ebrasca: ok, then perhaps babel or similar would be better, with the appropriate encoding.
2017-12-29T16:30:01Z Xach: warweasle: parse-integer seems like it is for a different purpose to me.
2017-12-29T16:30:33Z Xach: ebrasca: but underneath, babel or anything else will take two octets, create a 16-bit integer from it, and look up that integer in a table that maps to characters. you can do the steps yourself if you wish.
2017-12-29T16:31:10Z Xach: code-char is the table lookup function in CL. it will de facto (but not de jure) do what you want.
2017-12-29T16:31:12Z ebrasca: I am implementing fat32 for mezzano OS.
2017-12-29T16:31:26Z Xach: In that case, you may need to provide your own table.
2017-12-29T16:32:00Z warweasle might play code golf later.
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2017-12-29T16:32:01Z ebrasca: Xach: with code-char give someting like "l
2017-12-29T16:32:32Z Xach: ebrasca: code-char returns a single character
2017-12-29T16:32:40Z Xach: you can accumulate those into a string.
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2017-12-29T16:35:16Z ebrasca: mezzano have babal and flexi-streams
2017-12-29T16:38:57Z Xach: ebrasca: what is the encoding of the 16-bit character codes?
2017-12-29T16:39:27Z Xach: To what characters does it map?
2017-12-29T16:41:30Z ebrasca: Xach: " The first 5, 2-byte characters of this entry. " in link http://wiki.osdev.org/FAT
2017-12-29T16:41:50Z ebrasca: Xach: I am not sure what it is.
2017-12-29T16:42:14Z ebrasca: Xach: I know I get it in octets.
2017-12-29T16:43:17Z Shinmera: UTF-16, probably.
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2017-12-29T16:45:21Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Thanks , it is UTF-16.
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2017-12-29T16:59:13Z pjb: (string (code-char 65)) #| --> "A" |#
2017-12-29T17:00:52Z ebrasca: pjb: Is code-char only for 1 octet character?
2017-12-29T17:01:04Z pjb: Nope.
2017-12-29T17:01:44Z pjb: (string (code-char 8712)) #| --> "∈" |#
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2017-12-29T17:03:58Z ebrasca: pjb: I have 2 octet numbers, I have do it with (flexi-streams:octets-to-string vector :external-format :utf16)
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2017-12-29T17:35:57Z ebrasca: Xach: Are you Zach Beane?
2017-12-29T17:36:22Z beach: ebrasca: He is.
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2017-12-29T17:37:58Z ebrasca: Xach: Do plan to make suport for mezzano in quicklisp?
2017-12-29T17:38:12Z jmercouris: Xach: I've only been working with CL for about 6 months now, it's not that I did not assume the answer to my question, it is rather that I do not want to assume anything
2017-12-29T17:38:32Z jmercouris: Xach: So no, it is not a deep ignorance, merely ignorance :D
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2017-12-29T17:38:42Z Xach: jmercouris: Your defensiveness displays many assumptions about the types of answers that you consider acceptable.
2017-12-29T17:38:54Z Xach: ebrasca: No. But I would gladly accept patches to support it.
2017-12-29T17:39:12Z Xach: ebrasca: I don't think it's too hard to do - there are example patch sets in older pull requests.
2017-12-29T17:39:14Z jmercouris: Xach: I will admit, I am defensive, but that's because I don't like feeling like an idiot all the time
2017-12-29T17:39:42Z Xach: ebrasca: for e.g. clasp or mkcl
2017-12-29T17:40:00Z beach: jmercouris: That is part of the learning process.  You might as well get used to it.
2017-12-29T17:40:07Z ebrasca: Xach: Maybe I make it after I end making fat32 suport
2017-12-29T17:40:46Z jmercouris: beach: The docs do it for me already, more than enough :D it is rather that I don't wish it from others. There are good and bad ways of instructing, and maybe I took things the wrong as is the nature of written text, but I felt attacked
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2017-12-29T17:41:41Z beach: jmercouris: You are also observing the fact that IRC must necessarily be brief and to the point.  It's the nature of the medium.  That can be interpreted the wrong way sometimes.
2017-12-29T17:42:15Z pjb: It can help, but it's been observed too that some discussion last days.
2017-12-29T17:42:47Z whoman: mental brain spam filter is useful for the outside world anyway
2017-12-29T17:42:56Z whoman: so lvl that skil'
2017-12-29T17:43:02Z jmercouris: pjb: Can you rephrase? I'm not sure what you are trying to say
2017-12-29T17:43:48Z pjb: It may start like this, and we could still be at it next year.
2017-12-29T17:44:14Z beach: You mean Monday?
2017-12-29T17:44:18Z jmercouris: I still don't get what you are trying to say
2017-12-29T17:44:18Z pjb: Yes.
2017-12-29T17:44:26Z jmercouris: What happened on Monday?
2017-12-29T17:44:38Z pjb: Next year.
2017-12-29T17:44:52Z jmercouris: Still be at what? What do you mean?
2017-12-29T17:44:59Z beach: jmercouris: You are not being attacked.  It is all for the purpose of making you understand.  Don't take it the wrong way.
2017-12-29T17:45:07Z pjb: jmercouris: The opposite of being brief and to the point.
2017-12-29T17:45:09Z jmercouris: beach: I'll try to keep this in mind
2017-12-29T17:45:11Z Xach: ebrasca: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/pull/60 has an example to follow in the future
2017-12-29T17:46:47Z jmercouris: Shinmera: Sorry for assuming your meaning
2017-12-29T17:47:23Z beach: jmercouris: Oh, another problem.  You have not been to ELS, so you have not met Shinmera.  If you did, you would know.
2017-12-29T17:48:20Z jmercouris: beach: Hopefully this year, if I can save enough money up
2017-12-29T17:48:38Z jmercouris: From Berlin to Spain is not far for me, it's just the cost of staying somewhere
2017-12-29T17:49:11Z beach: There is bound to be some AirBnB in Marbella.
2017-12-29T17:49:37Z jmercouris: Yeah, definitely
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2017-12-29T18:27:41Z jmercouris: anyone know what the correct way to print to slime from cl-cffi-gtk is?
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2017-12-29T18:29:39Z jasom: jmercouris: print should go to the inferior-lisp buffer if you launched the lisp image from slime
2017-12-29T18:30:18Z jmercouris: jasom: That does not appear to work on my system for some reason
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2017-12-29T18:31:00Z random-nick: are you sure you're looking at *inferior-lisp* and to at the SLIME buffer?
2017-12-29T18:31:18Z jmercouris: random-nick: I am completely sure
2017-12-29T18:31:33Z jmercouris: if I invoke a function that prints from slime e.g. (my-function-that-has-a-print-in-it) it will print
2017-12-29T18:31:46Z jmercouris: but when I have a GTK event call a function, print does not work
2017-12-29T18:31:50Z random-nick: well, I don't think gtk redirects stdout
2017-12-29T18:31:52Z jmercouris: is this some sort of context issue?
2017-12-29T18:31:52Z jasom: jmercouris: that goes to the REPL buffer ususally, not *inferior-lisp*
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2017-12-29T18:32:12Z jasom: slime by default does not redirect output for threads not under its control
2017-12-29T18:32:28Z jasom: so if the gui is running in a separate thread it should go to *inferior-lisp* rather than the REPL
2017-12-29T18:32:33Z jmercouris: Ah yeah, I see that now
2017-12-29T18:32:46Z jmercouris: Thank you
2017-12-29T18:32:51Z jasom: there is an option or a command or something to change that, but I can't recall it
2017-12-29T18:33:20Z jmercouris: random-nick: You were right, I was looking at the slime buffer :D
2017-12-29T18:34:23Z random-nick: slime redirects stdout to the *inferior-lisp* but rebinds *standard-output* to a stream that goes into the SLIME buffer
2017-12-29T18:35:46Z random-nick: s/the *inferior-lisp*/the *inferior-lisp* buffer/
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2017-12-29T18:38:35Z random-nick: on some implementations, like SBCL, you can see that by looking at printed representation of *standard-output* with and without SLIME
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2017-12-29T18:54:58Z jmercouris: interesting, good to know
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2017-12-29T19:05:54Z beach: jmercouris: Now here is the thing I found the most amazing:  If you treat the ignorant person with great respect, then learning does not seem to progress very quickly, but if you are a bit harsh (not insulting) I have discovered that newbies here stick around more often.
2017-12-29T19:06:08Z beach: Not a very scientific study, I admit.
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2017-12-29T19:07:22Z beach: To a professional educator like me, that observation is a bit strange.  I don't know how to incorporate it into my teaching.
2017-12-29T19:09:21Z Xach: beach: I have observed that as well, but also mixed in with pointless or destructive harshness - it seems like a fine line that attracts sadists too
2017-12-29T19:09:43Z beach: I totally agree.
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2017-12-29T19:10:44Z Xach: In a controlled, supportive environment it seems much safer to apply harsh lessons than in an open environment where people view it as license to abuse
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2017-12-29T19:12:26Z Xach: This is applicable to lisp in the sense that lisp has attracted its share of helpful and hurtful harshness
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2017-12-29T19:16:27Z beach: Fair enough.
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2017-12-29T19:24:16Z Xach: Why does sbcl have size hints in make-package? Inherited from cmucl?
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2017-12-29T19:32:59Z beach: Could be.  The optimization considerations were so different at the time.
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2017-12-29T19:36:09Z Xach: there are no comments in dpans sources discussing the options
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2017-12-29T19:41:02Z dmiles: ABCL makes hints as to how many symbols will exist
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2017-12-29T19:57:02Z jasom: a form of harshness that I deem unnecessary that I've seen particularly in the lisp community is to leave no mistake uncorrected.  Someone new will ask an imprecise question and get told that their question is wrong, when it should be obvious what the question meant.  Even just reversing the order of CORRECTION, ANSWER to ANSWER, CORRECTION would soften things up quite a bit.
2017-12-29T19:58:53Z parjanya: on the other hand, some people ask basic questions and still manage to be quite arrogant... the discussion about "on the fly" yesterdey shocked me a bit
2017-12-29T19:59:38Z parjanya: s/dey/day/, urgh
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2017-12-29T20:02:32Z jasom: parjanya: I missed that one, just read through the logs and ... wow
2017-12-29T20:02:38Z dmiles: I try to not talk down to people... If my explaination leads to more questions then i expect to have to answer those questions as well.
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2017-12-29T20:03:22Z parjanya: jasom: if there ever was a pointless discussion ; ))
2017-12-29T20:05:33Z warweasle: parjanya: What's this?
2017-12-29T20:05:38Z warweasle is curious now.
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2017-12-29T20:07:23Z Xach: warweasle: check past logs for pransninja
2017-12-29T20:08:04Z dmiles: The other day someone asked me a question that was to tesg my knowledge of common lisp "How much do you know about how common lisp does make-instance?" I had know idea that was their agenda ..  I thought they were asking me "what do you do differntly from common lisp?"
2017-12-29T20:08:17Z dmiles: know/no
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2017-12-29T20:10:04Z dmiles: well i thought the question was "how does your implementation vary from the normal ways impls make an instance and set slots?"
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2017-12-29T20:13:17Z dmiles: (rather than a basic IQ test)
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2017-12-29T20:14:41Z stylewarning: Are any folks in here generally interested in topics like writing, documentation, and community involvement; sort of like Steve Klabnik?
2017-12-29T20:15:42Z Xach: stylewarning: i don't know who steve klabnik is, but i am generally interested in those things
2017-12-29T20:17:19Z stylewarning: He's the Rust guy
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2017-12-29T20:19:36Z warweasle: I usually only interested in documentation when I need it.
2017-12-29T20:22:04Z dmiles: for a shop to run well oiled it usualy takes two non-programmer people to document and interface to the community per programmer
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2017-12-29T20:26:03Z dmiles: i had a programming job where one day a week i had to be interviewed by someone who wrote documentation and translated what i did to english, we had annother person who would get on a mailing list and fight for the design him and i agreed on.  i am sure they wished i was all three people.
2017-12-29T20:26:36Z dmiles: but then the project would have taken 6-7 years instead of 3
2017-12-29T20:26:52Z dmiles: oops instead of 2
2017-12-29T20:29:10Z dmiles: however in the end, there other two people became the only two experts anyone ever heard of
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2017-12-29T20:30:50Z warweasle: dmiles: That reminds me of an incident I had a few years ago. I had done pretty much all the work a part of a project, and I had another programmer who insisted it would not work because it wasn't object oriented. She said "I've worked on billion dollar projects..." I wish I had said: "I work on thousand dollar projects."
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2017-12-29T20:32:23Z warweasle: dmiles: Anyway, I need to get my projects done quickly too.
2017-12-29T20:32:48Z dmiles: warweasle.  hah  "worked" vs working on
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2017-12-29T20:33:22Z warweasle: dmiles: I've heard that "perfect" is the enemy of "done" but I think that "done" is the enemy of "profit".
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2017-12-29T20:35:14Z dmiles: warweasle: admittedly since we adopting the comprimise bettween perfection and getting it done.. we tend to take on much bigger and complex projects (so they might still seem to take a longer time.
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2017-12-29T20:35:49Z dmiles: a longer time than would have been obvious)
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2017-12-29T20:37:29Z warweasle: dmiles: I found the system from "Thinking Forth" works best for me. I create a dictionary of Nouns and Verbs. (Functions and data structures). Then I create a library of functions and tools to solve similar problems to what I am eventually going to solve.
2017-12-29T20:38:29Z dmiles: warweasle: that is kind of brilliant
2017-12-29T20:39:12Z warweasle: dmiles: I learned that from learning lisp.
2017-12-29T20:39:35Z warweasle: I can "walk through" a problem and figure it out.
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2017-12-29T20:40:06Z warweasle: No need to plan it out ahead of time. Soon I have something to copy to C.
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2017-12-29T20:43:31Z dmiles: planning things out ahead of time exposes a problem i had (I dont know if i still have, i wont tempt fate to find out either).. When i was very young i'd make text adventure games.. I'd get out graph paper and design the dungions and mazes first. all the neat riddles.. then all was left was boring grunt work i didnt feel like doing
2017-12-29T20:43:33Z White_Flame: sure, do it "on the fly" ;)
2017-12-29T20:44:18Z dmiles: So now i realize i have to do the design *durring* in order to have the mental orgasms to keep the work going
2017-12-29T20:44:55Z warweasle: dmiles: What's fun is doing it backwards..."RunTheProgram()" -> "Step01() && Step02() && ..." -> "TurnServoMotor(degrees);"
2017-12-29T20:45:31Z warweasle: dmiles: I think that's using the computer to help write the code. You can't keep it all in your head.
2017-12-29T20:45:45Z warweasle: dmiles: And you can't anticpate all the roadblocks.
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2017-12-29T20:46:00Z parjanya: hah, that reminds me of a friend who wrote his entire programs before testing anything... he gave up programming quite quickly
2017-12-29T20:47:10Z warweasle: parjanya: There are two ways to write bug free code: 1) Test until there are no obvious bugs or 2) Make it so simple there are obviously no bugs.
2017-12-29T20:47:33Z warweasle: I'm lazy so I just use other people's code.
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2017-12-29T20:50:51Z dmiles: warweasle: indeed, "using the computer to help write the code" :)
2017-12-29T20:51:48Z warweasle: dmiles: One time I used flex and bison to do a large portion of my project. They hated the code it produced...but other than that there were no issues.
2017-12-29T20:52:22Z aeth: parjanya: That can sometimes work, even in CL. "Okay, now let's see what the compiler tells me I need to fix." followed by "Okay, now let's see what the runtime errors are."
2017-12-29T20:52:35Z aeth: You need to know what you're doing ahead of time, though.
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2017-12-29T20:55:46Z White_Flame: regarding the text adventure stuff, that's where data-driven programming is nice
2017-12-29T20:56:02Z dmiles: the approach i use to avoid ever having to feel like i am doing "testing" is to use test driven development..  For every functionality i need i start a loop that continually (brutally) calls on what i need to happen but in a differnt window .. as i am typing the code out.. that test window is griping at me
2017-12-29T20:56:03Z White_Flame: simple code, all the craft goes into the data
2017-12-29T20:56:41Z warweasle: White_Flame: Isn't that similar to prolog?
2017-12-29T20:56:56Z White_Flame: sometimes, but not necessarily
2017-12-29T20:57:13Z White_Flame: it's basically DSL without a language
2017-12-29T20:57:51Z dmiles: what White_Flame is saying sounds very simular to "Thinking Forth"
2017-12-29T20:57:51Z White_Flame: literal data structures to define your world, then code which defers to the data
2017-12-29T20:58:58Z dmiles: (Like in prolog, we write in our Noun/Verb language, sometimes going in and explaining (in code) what we meant with our noun/verbs)
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2017-12-29T20:59:41Z dmiles: (the DSL is that noun/verb description)
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2017-12-29T21:00:48Z dmiles: (oops, that data is encoded in that DSL which was from the noun/verbs)
2017-12-29T21:01:35Z dmiles: keeping as much design/redesign possible for the data phases
2017-12-29T21:02:02Z White_Flame: for games, nested lists of strings & magic enums can go a long way
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2017-12-29T21:03:03Z White_Flame: magic keys for when to perform tests on which game item, etc, and you can do your game logic right in the literal data without any hoops, just a few extra tests in the data processor
2017-12-29T21:03:32Z dmiles: So in other words "nested lists of strings & magic enums" and then making sure the interpreter you are writting supports all the features that you have been backfilling
2017-12-29T21:04:06Z White_Flame: I would consider it more of a world description graph than a programming language.
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2017-12-29T21:04:37Z White_Flame: while there's not much of a techincal difference there, the view on it keeps it well contained and avoids general purpose programming feature sprawl
2017-12-29T21:06:35Z dmiles: as someone writting in prolog 24/7 i do see what you mean
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2017-12-29T21:08:37Z dmiles: i think lisp is the only other language that i can do that comfortably in.  Though i used to try to do that still in several other languages.  It just becomes crazy with all the extra typing
2017-12-29T21:09:21Z White_Flame buries dmiles in a pile of BASIC DATA statements
2017-12-29T21:09:49Z dmiles: "Typing" was a double entendre
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2017-12-29T21:13:34Z dmiles: White_Flame: indeed, now i am burried in these data statements https://github.com/TeamSPoon/prologmud/blob/master/prolog/prologmud/mud_builtin.pfc.pl#L600-L873
2017-12-29T21:13:35Z emaczen: given a C pointer ptr what would be the equivalent CFFI call to pass &ptr as an argument to a function?
2017-12-29T21:14:26Z White_Flame: dmiles: very boilerplatey
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2017-12-29T21:14:40Z |3b|: (with-foreign-object (p :pointer) (... p ...))?
2017-12-29T21:15:41Z White_Flame: dmiles: I'm sure you could either generate or infer all that from within prolog, from much simpler & more straightforward representations
2017-12-29T21:16:27Z emaczen: |3b|: will p be a pointer to a pointer then? Like (type** p) ?
2017-12-29T21:17:23Z dmiles: White_Flame: well that is what Prolog uses to generate the program ..    the program is redesigned from that file
2017-12-29T21:17:43Z White_Flame throws an Inception DVD at dmiles
2017-12-29T21:17:55Z |3b|: more like void**, though you could replace :pointer with (:pointer type) if you wanted... cffi will currently completely ignore it either way as far as i know though :)
2017-12-29T21:18:13Z emaczen: |3b|: Cool, I'll try this out
2017-12-29T21:18:30Z |3b|: as far as cffi cares, P is a pointer to a pointer-sized chunk of foreign memory. any further interpretation happens on access
2017-12-29T21:19:39Z |3b|: (and even knowing it is pointer-sized only really applies to the allocation, it doesn't keep it around to range check your accesses)
2017-12-29T21:20:14Z dmiles: stuff like "completelyAssertedCollection(tRegion)." means the program should forward chain (pre-create) the world map
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2017-12-29T21:25:07Z dmiles: though what i am saying is that when you mix data with your programming language you get an exponential number of features for free
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2017-12-29T21:28:07Z dmiles: and the nice thing happens that stylewarning says in his video about somone complaining about his code: "I cant look at your code and see that it is doing anything"
2017-12-29T21:28:29Z dmiles: That is exactly the point!
2017-12-29T21:28:38Z dmiles: (his reply)
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2017-12-29T22:30:08Z alandipert: is the 'lambda macro in ZetaLisp' referred to in http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html a compiler macro in modern parlance?
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2017-12-29T22:38:59Z fdund: hi, does anybody know approx. how much an allegro CL license will cost for a SaaS app?
2017-12-29T22:39:30Z dmiles: alandipert, i think LAMBDA-MACRO is different
2017-12-29T22:40:26Z dmiles is allowing ZetaLisp's LAMBDA-MACRO to be used in WAM-CL
2017-12-29T22:40:58Z dmiles: not sure any other lisps allow it
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2017-12-29T23:01:17Z pagnol: fdund, why would you like to use allegro?
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2017-12-29T23:10:56Z fdund: pagnol: allegrocache
2017-12-29T23:11:35Z fdund: the open source alternatives seems bitrotted
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2017-12-29T23:12:19Z fdund: err seem
2017-12-29T23:14:25Z pagnol: I didn't know about allegrocache but it sure looks cool
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2017-12-29T23:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: fdund: sbcl and ccl are actively developed
2017-12-29T23:19:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl generally performs about as well as the commercial implementations
2017-12-29T23:19:48Z pagnol: but is there something like allegrocache?
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2017-12-29T23:19:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: manardb works ok, in my experience
2017-12-29T23:20:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are some issues on osx, but it's pretty straightforward on linux
2017-12-29T23:21:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: On the other hand, allegrocache probably is easier to use: for pricing information, you'd have to talk to Franz's sales team
2017-12-29T23:21:29Z fdund: i somehow missed manard, i was looking at rucksack, elephant etc
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2017-12-29T23:22:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think they charge a percentage of the sale price for apps you distribute, but I don't know how this transfers to SaaS
2017-12-29T23:22:34Z fdund: yeah i sent them an email
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2017-12-29T23:52:14Z Xach: pagnol: vivace graph is alive
2017-12-29T23:52:20Z Xach: oops. fdund rather
2017-12-29T23:52:25Z Xach too slow
2017-12-29T23:57:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: That looks cool, I should find some time to play with it
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2017-12-30T02:40:43Z dalkire: is anyone familiar with socket programming using usocket? i'm trying to connect to a server, but i'm having some difficulties and i don't exactly know how to go about debugging.
2017-12-30T02:41:54Z dalkire: (setf *socket* (usocket:socket-connect "freechess.org" 5000 :protocol :datagram :timeout 5))
2017-12-30T02:42:46Z dalkire: i'd like to inspect the usocket:datagram-usocket i get back, but i get an error trying (slot-value *socket* 'connected-p)
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2017-12-30T02:57:07Z pagnol: dalkire, what about using wireshark?
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2017-12-30T03:36:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-12-30T03:37:15Z JuanDaugherty: moin beach
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2017-12-30T03:38:01Z JuanDaugherty: does your ISP assign a v6 address?
2017-12-30T03:38:11Z beach: Maybe so.
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2017-12-30T05:14:48Z JJBby: I am just getting started on learning programing and Lisp seems very interesting any good reads on why to try list?
2017-12-30T05:14:53Z JJBby: lisp*
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2017-12-30T05:15:59Z beach: I don't understand.  Do you want a book to learn Common Lisp?
2017-12-30T05:16:20Z beach: If so, and if you already know some other programming language, then most people here recommend PCL.
2017-12-30T05:16:28Z beach: minion: Please tell JJBby about PCL.
2017-12-30T05:16:28Z minion: JJBby: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-12-30T05:18:23Z JJBby: beach, i think i was looking more for something explaining lisp and its uses. or an overview of lisp
2017-12-30T05:18:37Z beach: Yes, I see.
2017-12-30T05:18:41Z parjanya: he seems to be just starting programming at all, and asks why Lisp would be a good one to start with
2017-12-30T05:19:08Z beach: There must be stuff on the net, but nothing comes to mind right now.
2017-12-30T05:19:36Z JJBby: whats your experience and thoughts on lisp?
2017-12-30T05:19:50Z beach: JJBby: Otherwise, Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language that supports multiple paradigms, so you can use it for basically anything.
2017-12-30T05:19:59Z JJBby: and PCL has the first chapet called "why lisp"
2017-12-30T05:20:11Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-12-30T05:20:46Z parjanya: it’s quite a broad question, JJBby :) most languages do things more or less the same, they differ in small details; lisp is quite different overall, and people tend to say that lisp teaches one to think about programming in a better way
2017-12-30T05:21:43Z parjanya: I would start reading the Practical Common Lisp and see how that feels... try it, nothing anyone says will replace you trying
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2017-12-30T05:23:56Z JJBby: yeah diving into that first chapter now
2017-12-30T05:24:29Z beach: Yes, it looks pretty good for what you are looking for.
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2017-12-30T06:01:44Z beach: JJBby: I just finished reading that chapter of PCL, and it is quite complete.
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2017-12-30T06:31:08Z jasom: minion: message for dalkire: UDP sockets are connectionless
2017-12-30T06:31:08Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2017-12-30T06:31:21Z jasom: minion: memo for dalkire: UDP sockets are connectionless
2017-12-30T06:31:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dalkire when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-12-30T06:31:47Z jasom: minion: your strictness in grammar and syntax is annoying
2017-12-30T06:31:47Z minion: what's up?
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2017-12-30T06:58:32Z eviltofu: Hello
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2017-12-30T07:02:11Z beach: Hello eviltofu.
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2017-12-30T07:06:08Z waynecolvin: do CL floating point numbers need to be binary, rather than BCD or something else? what if a system doesn't have a FPU?
2017-12-30T07:07:58Z beach: You can still implement the operations in software, even if it is binary.  I haven't thought much of your question.  But it looks pretty tied to binary.
2017-12-30T07:11:24Z eviltofu: In CLOS, can we specify a slot and limit its type to a class? (defclass tag () (value :initarg :value)) I want value to be symbol only.
2017-12-30T07:11:34Z eviltofu: I just started Common Lisp last week.
2017-12-30T07:11:39Z beach: waynecolvin: Maybe not.  I suggest you read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for decode-float and see what you conclude.
2017-12-30T07:11:46Z beach: clhs decode-float
2017-12-30T07:11:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
2017-12-30T07:11:58Z beach: waynecolvin: ↑
2017-12-30T07:12:22Z beach: eviltofu: Yes, there is a :TYPE option to the slot specifier.
2017-12-30T07:12:48Z beach: eviltofu: The implementation may not check it for you though.  SBCL does if you have a high enough DEBUG setting.
2017-12-30T07:13:15Z beach: clhs defclass
2017-12-30T07:13:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2017-12-30T07:13:42Z beach: See (:TYPE TYPE-SPECIFIER) in the slot options.
2017-12-30T07:13:54Z eviltofu: Thanks
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2017-12-30T07:14:00Z beach: Anytime.
2017-12-30T07:15:57Z eviltofu: "The consequences of attempting to store in a slot a value that does not satisfy the type of the slot are undefined."
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2017-12-30T07:16:03Z eviltofu: Ha ha
2017-12-30T07:16:10Z beach: Why is that funny?
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2017-12-30T07:18:19Z eviltofu: so how do I know if :type is violated?
2017-12-30T07:19:40Z beach: It is typical for a language definition to have unspecified behavior.  You must either choose an implementation (and a DEBUG setting) that you know will verify it for you, or else, you check it yourself in a :BEFORE method on the setter.
2017-12-30T07:21:07Z eviltofu: ok I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do the :before method.
2017-12-30T07:21:14Z beach: (defmethod (setf thing) :before (new-value (object my-object)) (check-type object symbol))
2017-12-30T07:22:00Z eviltofu: (defmethod self (thing) :before ... ) ?
2017-12-30T07:22:08Z eviltofu: doh autocorrect.
2017-12-30T07:22:22Z beach: eviltofu: If you are new to Common Lisp, you should know that it is much less common to use type declarations than it is in other languages.
2017-12-30T07:22:41Z rme: eviltofu: You're so new to CL that you probably shouldn't even worry about this.
2017-12-30T07:23:31Z beach: eviltofu: In fact, many people think that providing type information early on in a project is detrimental to productivity, because you are forced to specify too early what types you want.
2017-12-30T07:26:04Z eviltofu: Well, it's a bit much learning emacs, slime, paredit, etc
2017-12-30T07:26:18Z beach: Definitely.
2017-12-30T07:26:50Z beach: But you can trust us on this one.  Forget about it until much later in your project.
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2017-12-30T07:30:01Z eviltofu: Besides :Prove is there another unit testing package?
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2017-12-30T07:34:59Z beach: Plenty.
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2017-12-30T07:36:48Z beach: I don't use any myself, because using ASSERT is enough, and the type of tests that the typical testing framework allows is often not what I want.
2017-12-30T07:39:27Z beach: Perhaps the proliferation of testing frameworks is an indication that it is hard to write one that satisfies the needs of all projects.
2017-12-30T07:39:36Z eviltofu: I'm testing the logic of my code so ... I don't know if assert is enough.
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2017-12-30T07:40:05Z beach: I don't see why not.
2017-12-30T07:41:46Z beach: For example, when I implement a data structure, I often write a second, trivial and slow, implementation of it.  Then I generate random operations on both of them and use ASSERT to check that they behave the same way.
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2017-12-30T07:44:51Z beach: eviltofu: Do you care to share with us the type of application you are writing?
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2017-12-30T07:48:10Z eviltofu: Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant assert alone in the code was enough. You are still writing tests but using assert instead of a test frame work.
2017-12-30T07:48:20Z beach: Correct.
2017-12-30T07:49:50Z eviltofu: I'm just putting around and exploring Common Lisp.
2017-12-30T07:50:26Z beach: I understand.
2017-12-30T07:55:14Z shaftoe: im writing some code, and there's a bunch of validations i want to perform before executing a function... but i don't want a whole bunch of nested if tests
2017-12-30T07:55:40Z shaftoe: atm im using a longer chain of tests in a (cond)
2017-12-30T07:55:52Z shaftoe: wondering if there's another approach worth considering
2017-12-30T07:56:40Z beach: You could put the tests in a separate function.  Or you can use a :BEFORE method.  But I can't see how you can avoid executing every validation.
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2017-12-30T07:57:50Z shaftoe: ok
2017-12-30T07:57:57Z waynecolvin: maybe use a short circuit (or ...)
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2017-12-30T07:58:13Z shaftoe: if i do an or, it's harder to send the error back up the chain
2017-12-30T07:58:25Z waynecolvin: oh
2017-12-30T07:58:35Z shaftoe: i started with something like that
2017-12-30T07:58:45Z shaftoe: but it was unclear why a validation failed
2017-12-30T07:59:01Z shaftoe: because my tests are just boolean results atm
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2017-12-30T08:03:51Z beach: eviltofu: So what is it that you are working on?
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2017-12-30T08:15:46Z beach: Oh well.
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2017-12-30T09:02:16Z shka: good day
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2017-12-30T09:05:47Z beach: Hello shka.
2017-12-30T09:09:26Z waynecolvin: shaftoe : is this lame? (defun try-test (expr) (if (eval expr) nil t)) ~> (assoc-if #try-test '( (test-1 . 'fail-report-1) ... ))
2017-12-30T09:09:42Z shka: don't use EVAL!
2017-12-30T09:09:50Z shka: that's one
2017-12-30T09:09:51Z shka: besides
2017-12-30T09:10:03Z shka: expr is not expression, it i evaluated variable
2017-12-30T09:10:11Z waynecolvin: sorry, no eval
2017-12-30T09:10:13Z shka: common lisp is strict language
2017-12-30T09:10:28Z shka: there is no point in eval
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2017-12-30T09:10:42Z beach: Also, (if ... nil t) is the same as (not ...).
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2017-12-30T09:14:20Z shka: and about '((test-1 . 'fail-report-1))
2017-12-30T09:14:34Z shka: there is double quote for fail-report-1
2017-12-30T09:14:42Z shka: most likely not what you want!
2017-12-30T09:15:23Z waynecolvin: i did get an extra quote when trying it
2017-12-30T09:16:23Z shka: that's because '(a b c) is like (list 'a 'b 'c)
2017-12-30T09:17:25Z Shinmera: It's not, though.
2017-12-30T09:18:12Z shka: Shinmera: hi, do you have time for documentation-utils discussion now?
2017-12-30T09:18:14Z aeth: It's not? It's immutable, any other difference?
2017-12-30T09:18:48Z Shinmera: Quote makes it a read-time literal. That's quite an important difference.
2017-12-30T09:18:55Z Shinmera: Err, compile-time literal
2017-12-30T09:19:22Z Shinmera: It is still mutable, but the consequences may be surprising.
2017-12-30T09:19:28Z Shinmera: shka: Sure
2017-12-30T09:19:33Z shka: query?
2017-12-30T09:19:43Z aeth: Well, in practice immutable.
2017-12-30T09:20:04Z aeth: 'literal' is more accurate, I couldn't think of that word for some reason
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2017-12-30T09:20:30Z Shinmera: shka: What?
2017-12-30T09:20:47Z shka: can i use irc query?
2017-12-30T09:20:54Z Shinmera: Uh, if you want?
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2017-12-30T09:38:41Z Shinmera: Xach: I removed the Verbose kludge stuff from Qtools, so you should be able to cache fasls normally now
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2017-12-30T10:58:46Z waynecolvin: is this less bad than using eval? http://lpaste.net/6726387104474988544 inverse-cond.lisp
2017-12-30T11:00:14Z beach: In recursive code like that, I always handle the base case first, i.e. if there are no clauses.
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2017-12-30T11:00:37Z beach: Otherwise, you have your reader hold his or her breath until the end of the macro to see whether you actually plan to take care of that case.
2017-12-30T11:01:43Z beach: And I don't see why you handle the second clause specially.
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2017-12-30T11:03:44Z beach: And your indentation is off.  It looks like you are using Emacs Lisp mode.  Use the slime-indentation contribution.
2017-12-30T11:04:08Z beach: The `else' part of an IF should be indented just like the `then' clause.
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2017-12-30T11:09:09Z waynecolvin: how do you install slime? better look that up...
2017-12-30T11:09:20Z beach: Use quicklisp.
2017-12-30T11:09:28Z beach: The name of the system is slime-helper (I think).
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2017-12-30T11:11:16Z waynecolvin: i just found out emacs has a builtin package manager! gotta try this
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2017-12-30T11:15:24Z beach: For SLIME, you are better off with Quicklisp.
2017-12-30T11:15:59Z beach: It will give you instructions for putting additional forms in your .emacs.
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2017-12-30T11:46:47Z phoe: waynecolvin: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2017-12-30T11:46:55Z phoe: That is if you are using vanilla emacs.
2017-12-30T11:47:19Z phoe: If you are using spacemacs, slime is already integrated in spacemacs's common-lisp layer - I am using this configuration at the moment.
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2017-12-30T11:54:02Z Xach: Shinmera: cool, i'll give it a shot.
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2017-12-30T12:50:18Z toppler: Is there a library anyone can recommend for immutable b, persistent data structures in CL?
2017-12-30T12:51:06Z shka: toppler: fset is good and stable
2017-12-30T12:51:12Z toppler: Cheers!
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2017-12-30T12:52:18Z shka: if you like adventures, cl-data-structures: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures but it is not stable, well tested on all platforms and documentation is fragmented
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2017-12-30T12:53:35Z toppler: Will have a look.
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2017-12-30T13:04:40Z dmiles: SBCL has #!+(or x86 x86-64 arm arm64)   what does the "#!+" mean?
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2017-12-30T13:05:53Z dmiles: does that still search features?
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2017-12-30T13:09:41Z beach: Looks like one of their bootstrapping tricks.
2017-12-30T13:09:49Z Shinmera: Their ! stuff is part of the cross-compilation phase
2017-12-30T13:10:18Z Shinmera: So #!+ is equivalent to #+ but using the target *features* rather than the host lisp's *features*.
2017-12-30T13:10:46Z dmiles: ah that makes sense now
2017-12-30T13:11:06Z dmiles: so the packages "SB!SYS" is that the targets SYS ?
2017-12-30T13:11:16Z Shinmera: the target sb-sys
2017-12-30T13:11:34Z dmiles: aha
2017-12-30T13:11:35Z Shinmera: The bang is there because if you're compiling from sbcl, the sb-sys package already exists
2017-12-30T13:11:42Z Shinmera: so you don't want to clobber that
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2017-12-30T13:12:47Z beach: And, of course, they don't have first-class global environments, so that can't do it that way either. :)
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2017-12-30T13:13:13Z dmiles: well at this phase they are not yet SBCL.. they are whichever minimal lisp they are hosted on
2017-12-30T13:13:39Z beach: They use a full Common Lisp implementation as the host.
2017-12-30T13:15:45Z dmiles: (well i mentioned that since to they'd need everyone elses lisp to have first class envs :P)
2017-12-30T13:15:55Z beach: Nope.
2017-12-30T13:16:05Z beach: I use first-class global environments to compile SICL code using SBCL as a host.
2017-12-30T13:16:53Z dmiles: oh, becasue SICL emulates such envs immedately displite what the host is missing?
2017-12-30T13:17:08Z Shinmera: SICL is built entirely using standard CL
2017-12-30T13:17:16Z Shinmera: So if you can run CL you can build SICL
2017-12-30T13:17:19Z Shinmera: Or at least that's the idea
2017-12-30T13:17:32Z beach: There is no emulation involved.  It is just a data structure from a library that the SICL compiler is able to use.
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2017-12-30T13:17:59Z dmiles: *nod*
2017-12-30T13:18:02Z beach: Shinmera: Once it's done, yes.  But you also need CLOSER-MOP.
2017-12-30T13:18:34Z Shinmera: beach: Can't wait for all sorts of host weirdnesses to start becoming an actual problem building SICL :^)
2017-12-30T13:19:09Z beach: I haven't encountered any such problems, except the bug in SBCL that bit me and that had to do with funcallable-standard-object.
2017-12-30T13:19:30Z Shinmera: It took SBCL's devs quite a long while to get the resulting files to be binary-identical regardless of the host.
2017-12-30T13:19:48Z beach: That I can imagine, sure.
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2017-12-30T15:13:13Z pagnol: am I blind or does sbcl really not show line numbers when an error occurs?
2017-12-30T15:14:45Z cess11: Not so sure it has line numbers.
2017-12-30T15:14:56Z beach: What do you need them for?  You just type `v' in front of the stack frame shown in SLIME.
2017-12-30T15:15:34Z beach: That will load the file and position the cursor on the problem.
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2017-12-30T15:28:08Z beach: pagnol: Hello?  Did you faint?
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2017-12-30T15:30:08Z pagnol: beach, ah I didn't know that, thanks
2017-12-30T15:30:22Z beach: Sure.
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2017-12-30T15:40:45Z Xach: Shinmera: hmm, did you push your changes?
2017-12-30T15:41:17Z Shinmera: Xach: Yes. https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/commit/551bb9f6332eff4e16b99bfd83f50a94f65962af
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2017-12-30T15:41:47Z Shinmera: Ah, damn, I somehow missed one instance
2017-12-30T15:41:49Z Shinmera: one second
2017-12-30T15:42:13Z Shinmera: Should be fixed now.
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2017-12-30T15:45:31Z Xach: Thanks, I'll try
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2017-12-30T16:18:04Z flip214: I've got (ITER outer ... (iter inner ...) ... (finally (return (values x y z))))
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2017-12-30T16:18:08Z flip214: but iterate tells me
2017-12-30T16:18:29Z flip214: (resp. SBCL)
2017-12-30T16:18:48Z flip214:    return for unknown block: NIL
2017-12-30T16:19:16Z flip214: the (finally (return ...)) gets transformed to (return-from nil ...)
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2017-12-30T16:20:37Z flip214: is that an iterate bug, or do I have to tell the outermost iterate explicitly which block to return from?
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2017-12-30T16:24:34Z beach: It looks like you gave the block an explicit name, distinct from nil, so then yes, you have to name it.
2017-12-30T16:25:17Z beach: clhs return
2017-12-30T16:25:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_return.htm
2017-12-30T16:25:59Z beach: (RETURN ...) always expands to (RETURN-FROM NIL ...)
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2017-12-30T16:29:36Z beach: flip214: I take it you are not satisfied with that answer.
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2017-12-30T16:30:36Z flip214: beach: yeah, well, no, that's good enough...
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2017-12-30T16:30:51Z flip214: seems that RETURN simply isn't parsed (like COLLECT etc.) by ITERATE
2017-12-30T16:30:56Z fourier: what is the config file for ecl?
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2017-12-30T16:31:00Z flip214: and so of course the wrong block name is used.
2017-12-30T16:31:05Z beach: flip214: Correct, it's a normal macro.
2017-12-30T16:31:06Z flip214: so thanks once more!
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2017-12-30T16:31:17Z beach: Sure.
2017-12-30T16:32:03Z pagnol: beach, when I try to jump to my code from the backtrace I get an error 'unhandled DEBUG-CONDITION: #<SB-DI::COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN MINROOT> has no debug-block information.'
2017-12-30T16:32:42Z beach: pagnol: Did you compile your code with a high DEBUG setting?
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2017-12-30T16:33:03Z beach: pagnol: I have this in my .sbclrc: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2017-12-30T16:33:24Z beach: pagnol: I regret to tell you that those are not the default values.
2017-12-30T16:33:40Z pagnol: previously I only had (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3)
2017-12-30T16:34:09Z beach: It could be something else.  I am just guessing.
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2017-12-30T16:40:00Z phoe: pagnol: this sounds very implementation-specific, I advise you ask on #sbcl.
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2017-12-30T16:40:39Z phoe: Unrelated: my life became so much nicer when I realized that I can (funcall (fdefinition (list 'setf FOO)) ...) where FOO is a symbol of my choosing.
2017-12-30T16:41:01Z beach: Or just '(setf foo).
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2017-12-30T16:41:23Z phoe: beach: yes yes, except FOO is variable in there.
2017-12-30T16:41:31Z beach: `(setf ,foo) then
2017-12-30T16:41:49Z phoe: Correct. It's a bit shorter than (list 'setf foo).
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2017-12-30T16:43:22Z Shinmera: It's a bit weird actually that function designators do not contain '(setf foo) despite '(setf foo) being a valid function name.
2017-12-30T16:43:45Z beach: Indeed.  Sounds like an omission.
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2017-12-30T16:50:08Z phoe: yep
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2017-12-30T16:54:31Z phoe: CLOS question - when I have class FOO, class BAR subclassing FOO, class BAZ subclassing BAR, and all three classes have INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER methods - when I make an instance of BAR, do all three methods get called by default?
2017-12-30T16:54:35Z beach: phoe: Speaking of which, KZiemian asked for input to CLUS, and I gave some, but then KZiemian has not been seen.  This function designator could also deserve a not in there.
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2017-12-30T16:55:11Z beach: phoe: No, the :AFTER method on BAZ is not applicable then.
2017-12-30T16:55:27Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues/32 thanks!
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2017-12-30T16:55:58Z phoe: beach: uhhh, typo on my side, I meant instance of BAZ.
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2017-12-30T16:56:04Z beach: Then yes.
2017-12-30T16:56:12Z beach: The are all executed.
2017-12-30T16:56:28Z beach: There is nothing particular about initialize-instance here.
2017-12-30T16:56:36Z beach: It works like any other generic function.
2017-12-30T16:57:27Z phoe: It calls CALL-NEXT-METHOD internally to take other constructors into account?
2017-12-30T16:57:50Z beach: No, :BEFORE and :AFTER methods don't even support call-next-method.
2017-12-30T16:58:22Z beach: The method combination builds an effective method that systematically calls all the application :BEFORE and :AFTER methods.
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2017-12-30T16:59:26Z beach: clhs 7.6.6.2
2017-12-30T16:59:26Z specbot: Standard Method Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
2017-12-30T17:01:10Z phoe: I see. Thanks!
2017-12-30T17:02:05Z phoe: So INITIALIZE-INSTANCE uses a method combination to take other constructors into account? Like, in case of BAZ, constructors for classes BAR and FOO.
2017-12-30T17:02:38Z phoe: Or does INITIALIZE-INSTANCE call CALL-NEXT-METHOD directly?
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2017-12-30T17:02:49Z beach: It has nothing to do with constructors.  ALLOCATE-INSTANCE is first called, then INITIALIZE-INSTANCE is called with the allocated instance.
2017-12-30T17:03:24Z beach: When the effective method is computed, all applicable methods are first determined...
2017-12-30T17:03:26Z phoe: Oh wait.
2017-12-30T17:03:28Z phoe: "All the after methods are called in most-specific-last order."
2017-12-30T17:03:31Z phoe: This answers my question.
2017-12-30T17:03:40Z beach: OK.
2017-12-30T17:04:06Z phoe: CLOS really is amazing.
2017-12-30T17:04:30Z beach: I agree.
2017-12-30T17:05:40Z Shinmera: You could always do the same thing done in other OOP styles by defining a primary method and calling CALL-NEXT-METHOD.
2017-12-30T17:06:40Z Shinmera: But :after is more convenient.
2017-12-30T17:07:09Z beach: Shinmera: The point is that doing so after the fact might change the protocol, so that client software needs to be rewritten.  I asked that question in a course I held in New Zealand once.  And they suggested exactly that.  When I explained the maintenance problem, they immediately got it.
2017-12-30T17:07:56Z fourier: at some point Stroustrup wanted to add :before and :after into C++, and even had a prototype but then the community has decided it makes it too complex though
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2017-12-30T17:08:18Z beach: Heh, that's a good one.
2017-12-30T17:08:27Z beach: As if it isn't already too complex.
2017-12-30T17:09:22Z fourier: there was quite an opposition from compiler vendors
2017-12-30T17:09:53Z Shinmera: Woulda preferred he had added a specified ABI instead
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2017-12-30T17:13:27Z fourier: it was not really an option, for performance reasons iirc
2017-12-30T17:13:31Z jmercouris: fourier: Is he the only one who decides the evolution of the language? is there not some sort of community?
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2017-12-30T17:14:16Z fourier: no it was a commitee gathering like once a year. mainly lead devs, compiler devs and vendors
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2017-12-30T17:15:32Z jmercouris: So he's just a member of that community then
2017-12-30T17:15:34Z jmercouris: I see
2017-12-30T17:16:00Z fourier: but until like 85-88 he had some freedom. then the language started to started to spread and he got bounded by "customers" and developers, hence all the stuff which is hard to remove/change
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2017-12-30T17:18:05Z jmercouris: I wonder what it is like to work on one language your whole life
2017-12-30T17:18:09Z fourier: he has a huge influence on the language though, like he solely practically force commetee to accept STL - the part with iterators/containers/algorithms into the standard practically last moments after 2 days of discussions with Alex Stepanov who has implemented STL, then Stroustrup got the concept of it.
2017-12-30T17:22:42Z fourier: heh at least it evolves and into the good direction. it is so much easier to write code in c++ now after c++11/14. feels almost like a new language.
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2017-12-30T17:24:54Z Shinmera: Can't wait for C++ to grow a GC :^)
2017-12-30T17:25:06Z fourier: it was available like from day 1
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2017-12-30T17:25:52Z fourier: the language itself designed so you can use external gc, nothing to prevent it. the problem is no one needs it - people do manual memory management for reason.
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2017-12-30T17:30:36Z fourier: http://www.stroustrup.com/bs_faq.html#garbage-collection
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2017-12-30T17:36:27Z fourier: can anyone explain what is the fundamental difference between Verna's quickref and quickdocs ?
2017-12-30T17:38:01Z Shinmera: Verna's generates texinfo rather than HTML
2017-12-30T17:38:08Z Shinmera: That's about all I can figure
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2017-12-30T17:46:37Z jmercouris: fourier: I like that the title of the doc is "bs_faq" :D
2017-12-30T17:46:56Z jmercouris: very informative, actually cleared up many misconceptions I had about C++
2017-12-30T17:47:19Z jmercouris: I guess it's easy to get caught up in the echo chambers of the programming community sometimes
2017-12-30T17:48:00Z shka: oh, there are so many misconceptions about C++
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2017-12-30T18:27:15Z fourier: is where in CL or alexandria some function to create a sequence by repeating some element N times ? like (repeat "a" 3) => '("a" "a" "a")
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2017-12-30T18:27:35Z flip214: in case someone is interested: quickdocs references https://common-lisp.net/project/quux-hunchentoot, but that is a 404.
2017-12-30T18:27:42Z beach: (loop repeat 3 collect "a")
2017-12-30T18:27:50Z flip214: http://quickref.common-lisp.net/quux-hunchentoot.html does work
2017-12-30T18:28:01Z flip214: fourier: (make-list 3 :initial-element "a")
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2017-12-30T18:28:31Z beach: That too.
2017-12-30T18:28:45Z Shinmera: And make-array, since vectors are sequences too
2017-12-30T18:29:22Z fourier: op make-list is nice, always forget about it :)
2017-12-30T18:29:29Z fourier: thanks for suggestions!
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2017-12-30T19:31:43Z phoe: What is a proper way to curry/rcurry something like (lambda (x y) (make-instance x :name y)) ?
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2017-12-30T19:44:46Z shka: phoe: no clever way to do it in alexandria, i suggest to define constructor!
2017-12-30T19:44:59Z shka: i have a macro for that, though
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2017-12-30T19:48:37Z Shinmera: (defmacro define-constructor (class lambda-list) `(defun ,(intern (format NIL "~a-~a" 'make class)) ,lambda-list (make-instance ',class ,@(loop for v in (lambda-fiddle:extract-lambda-vars lambda-list) collect (intern (string v) :keyword) collect v))))
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2017-12-30T19:48:58Z shka: something like that
2017-12-30T19:49:04Z shka: not worth it in general :-)
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2017-12-30T20:01:02Z makomo: does anyone have any recommendations where to look for good implementations of combinatorial algorithms?
2017-12-30T20:01:18Z makomo: bonus points if the implementation language is CL :D
2017-12-30T20:02:10Z makomo: algorithms such as generating all of the permutations, n-tuples, combinations (all w/ or w/o repetition), etc.
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2017-12-30T20:10:21Z JuanDaugherty would have made one but for the bonus
2017-12-30T20:11:54Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly Rosetta Code has some stuff, but I'm not sure if it's been translated to CL yet
2017-12-30T20:12:13Z phoe: ^
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2017-12-30T20:17:22Z _death: alexandria also has a few
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2017-12-30T20:33:32Z makomo: if i have nested LOOPs, what's the best way to just forward the result of one of the the inner LOOPs
2017-12-30T20:33:59Z makomo: i.e. i have (LOOP ... :do (LOOP ... :collect ...))
2017-12-30T20:34:14Z makomo: the inner LOOP returns the collected items. how do i just forward those out from the outer LOOP?
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2017-12-30T20:34:56Z makomo: or do i have to do something like (LOOP ... :for res = (LOOP ... :collect ...) :finally (return res))
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2017-12-30T20:35:52Z _death: you can use an nconc clause.. or just use push/nreverse
2017-12-30T20:36:10Z _death: or collect and flatten..
2017-12-30T20:37:01Z _death: or do you mean that you want to return early?
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2017-12-30T20:39:50Z makomo: erm, nvm, i mixed something up, sorry. however, is there a way for LOOP to return the result of the last executed form in its DO block?
2017-12-30T20:40:09Z makomo: assuming all the LOOP has is an arithmetic FOR clause, and a DO clause
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2017-12-30T20:43:03Z makomo: e.g. i would like for (LOOP :for i :from 1 :to 10 :do (list i)) to return (10), instead of the usual NIL
2017-12-30T20:43:31Z _death: if you use DO, then the you're signaling that the form's result is irrelevant
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2017-12-30T20:45:09Z _death: a less silly example would make what you're actually trying to do clearer
2017-12-30T20:45:21Z makomo: i see, so that's just how DO is supposed to be used. what would be the best solution then? maybe a :with, a setf, and then a :finally (return)?
2017-12-30T20:45:54Z makomo: yeah i don't really have a non-silly example. i'm just wondering what's the most elegant way to do something like that
2017-12-30T20:46:53Z makomo: i thought i had a non-silly one a few moments ago but i was wrong
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2017-12-30T20:47:23Z _death: the thing is, GIGO also applies to such considerations..
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2017-12-30T20:47:49Z makomo: hm, fair point
2017-12-30T20:48:02Z _death: sometimes it's better to try doing what you want without the long form of LOOP
2017-12-30T20:48:19Z _death: this can expose underlying control structure that's easier to abstract
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2017-12-30T20:56:17Z _death: makomo: but you can do better than with/setf even here.. (loop for i from 1 to 10 for thing = (list i) finally (return thing))
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2017-12-30T21:11:20Z makomo: _death: yup, true, recalled that a few moments later
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2017-12-30T21:16:02Z pjb: makomo: (LOOP :for i :from 1 :to 10 :do (list i) :finally (return '(10))) #| --> (10) |#
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2017-12-30T21:31:24Z Xach: Baggers: http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-30/failure-report/cepl.sdl2-ttf.html#cepl.sdl2-ttf
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2017-12-30T21:53:22Z pagnol: is there something like the `test` macro that lets me supply an equality predicate?
2017-12-30T21:53:30Z pagnol: err I mean `case` macro
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2017-12-30T21:54:24Z Shinmera: No, but you can make your own with COND easy.
2017-12-30T21:56:08Z pagnol: good idea, I'll give that a try
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2017-12-30T22:07:12Z White_Flame: LET + COND is basically CASE with full test evaluation
2017-12-30T22:07:27Z White_Flame: with the LET ensuring the value to be tested is only evaluated once at the top
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2017-12-30T22:10:27Z LexLeoGryfon: heyy
2017-12-30T22:10:30Z LexLeoGryfon: whats up?
2017-12-30T22:10:35Z LexLeoGryfon: any python devs here?
2017-12-30T22:10:46Z Shinmera: This is not #python
2017-12-30T22:10:59Z LexLeoGryfon: just want to chat with python dev about lisp
2017-12-30T22:11:14Z LexLeoGryfon: the lisp vs python actually
2017-12-30T22:12:20Z LexLeoGryfon: Shinmera: oh i know u !
2017-12-30T22:12:27Z Shinmera: Do you now
2017-12-30T22:13:12Z LexLeoGryfon: u are the swiss guy who gave talk and have few post in lisp magazine or smthn, and have really beautiful homepage with arts n stuff
2017-12-30T22:13:48Z pierpa: Lisp magazines?
2017-12-30T22:13:53Z Shinmera: I don't know about a lisp magazine
2017-12-30T22:14:05Z Shinmera: But thanks for the compliment on the homepage, I suppose.
2017-12-30T22:14:37Z Shinmera: Anyway, what in specific were you looking for comparing python and lisp?
2017-12-30T22:15:27Z LexLeoGryfon: u are a cool dude :) but I have personal ( i think) problem with lisp, so I came here to discuss it shortly and confront interests n ideas of this channel...
2017-12-30T22:15:35Z phoe: ask your question then
2017-12-30T22:15:36Z mfiano: Which Lisp?
2017-12-30T22:15:41Z LexLeoGryfon: let me try to describe it briefly...
2017-12-30T22:15:49Z mfiano: This channel is for that of the Common Lisp variety
2017-12-30T22:15:52Z phoe: oh right, mfiano is right
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2017-12-30T22:17:58Z papachan: LexLeoGryfon just curious what is your question?
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2017-12-30T22:21:04Z LexLeoGryfon: i'm mainly a python dev. And I like python very much because of following things: readability, simplicity, dynamism, metaprogramming, ability to write kinda functional style, etc. My problem with lisp is that I made somewhat huge research(in my sense) about it, even tried to code in it (hylang), and for me all this hype around lisp makes no sense, and I find it bullshit.
2017-12-30T22:21:36Z LexLeoGryfon: I tried to discover advantages of lisps over ruby\python, and found none , practical n useful.
2017-12-30T22:21:51Z mfiano: I came from Python a decade or so ago, and I can say that all of those are better with Lisp, with the addition of the surprising rapid prototyping aspect.
2017-12-30T22:22:19Z LexLeoGryfon: there are advantages over languages like C\Java, maybe for their devs LISPS could be mind blowing. but not for python\ruby devs
2017-12-30T22:22:24Z random-nick: python's meta-programming is a joke compared to most lisps, including common lisp
2017-12-30T22:22:40Z pierpa: what code speed, once written?
2017-12-30T22:22:48Z pierpa: *what about
2017-12-30T22:22:52Z loli: Python is rather annoying to write in the functional style, where as CL is rather agnostic when it comes to the functional style
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2017-12-30T22:23:36Z White_Flame: and of course, languages like Python and Ruby are their own spin on Lisp-isms, so looking at Lisp will seem kind of old hat, but you won't realize the depth vs shallowness of those featues between languages yet
2017-12-30T22:24:17Z White_Flame: I'm curious to see an example of Python metaprogramming, if the word even means the same thing
2017-12-30T22:24:52Z mfiano: I think that means that to do anything fast in Python involves writing ffi
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2017-12-30T22:25:26Z LexLeoGryfon: I wrote two pieces of code to calculate prime number, one in python https://paste.simplylinux.ch/view/88ca76fa which seems ok for me, and one in lisp hylang https://paste.simplylinux.ch/view/9956c6e3 which seems fucking unreadable for me
2017-12-30T22:26:01Z random-nick: I think the most important meta-programming feature in python is decorators
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2017-12-30T22:26:48Z LexLeoGryfon: pierpa: I don't have issues with perfomance in python world with pypy+cython for cpu-bound, and asyncio+uvloop for io-bound tasks
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2017-12-30T22:27:23Z White_Flame: LexLeoGryfon: lisp is a very, very syntactically regular language.  That makes complex code much easier to read than the traditional infix/postfix/prefix mix of other languages
2017-12-30T22:27:47Z White_Flame: of course, the hylang example doesn't seem to follow quite the same level of regularity, combining both [] and ()
2017-12-30T22:28:16Z phoe gently, geeeently nudges the discussion towards #lispcafe
2017-12-30T22:28:25Z White_Flame: and in metaprogramming and many other features, the benefits of the design decisions behind Lisp emerge when you start writing complex stuff
2017-12-30T22:28:28Z mfiano: Just read the Hylang README. "It's [Python] really awesome. Oh, and lisps are neat.". Heh
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2017-12-30T22:28:41Z mfiano: That says a lot.
2017-12-30T22:29:17Z White_Flame: many modern languages optimize for succinct code golfing
2017-12-30T22:29:34Z pjb: We don't eat of that bread here.
2017-12-30T22:29:40Z pierpa: OTOH if you are happy with python, don't see any benefit in Lisp, then it's not mandatory to like Lisp. Use Python and be happy.
2017-12-30T22:29:41Z random-nick: LexLeoGryfon: you should probably try using Common Lisp instead of hylang
2017-12-30T22:30:05Z random-nick: hylang is not very representative of the lisp family
2017-12-30T22:30:19Z LexLeoGryfon: can anyone propose me in real world practical daily example of the thing that syntactically looks better in lisp rather than in python? not some rare-meta-bs case that occurs in 1 of 100 days, but something that could occur daily in life of web\script\dev lets say?
2017-12-30T22:30:27Z loli: pattern matching
2017-12-30T22:30:29Z White_Flame: and the "Common" part of Common Lisp was a reuniting of an entire family of commercially used, mature Lisps
2017-12-30T22:30:41Z White_Flame: "looks" is 100% subjective
2017-12-30T22:31:17Z White_Flame: but any time you create a project-specific macro, your use of it will look better than a macro-less language calling functions & object interfaces to do the boilerplate manually
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2017-12-30T22:32:17Z LexLeoGryfon: loli: show me the code
2017-12-30T22:32:32Z loli: here is an example of pattern matching for a functional insertion sort
2017-12-30T22:32:34Z loli: http://lpaste.net/1085864266113744896
2017-12-30T22:32:43Z |3b|: LexLeoGryfon: pretty much anything looks better in cl to me :)
2017-12-30T22:32:45Z loli: I've also used it to make red black tree, it is in all my code
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2017-12-30T22:32:59Z Baggers: Xach: thanks. on it
2017-12-30T22:33:08Z loli: https://github.com/mariari/Misc-Lisp-Scripts/blob/master/books/Purely-Functional/chapter-3/red-black.lisp#L54
2017-12-30T22:33:15Z loli: another example of a long pattern match
2017-12-30T22:33:39Z LexLeoGryfon: White_Flame: there are macroses in python . however why not to be happy to insert boilerplate in to functions?
2017-12-30T22:33:40Z loli: Also most things written in the functional style aren't too well supported in Python due to the lack of a proper list
2017-12-30T22:33:50Z random-nick: there's also the binary file parsing example
2017-12-30T22:34:23Z White_Flame: LexLeoGryfon: because your boilerplate might change, you might typo/forget it, and it creates more inertia to get over to put a new thing into your code
2017-12-30T22:35:19Z White_Flame: also with pattern matching, lisp macros can reach into your code and extract instances of variables to use for pattern matching directly, reducing the amount of configuration you need to set up to use it
2017-12-30T22:36:00Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: The practical use for Lisp over something like Python is controlling when something is evaluated.
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2017-12-30T22:36:22Z White_Flame: a practical use for Lisp over anything is super-easy internal code generation
2017-12-30T22:36:58Z aeth: There are lots of ways to control when something is evaluated in Common Lisp. read-eval, reader macros, defmacro macros, modify-macros, symbol macros, inline functions, etc.
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2017-12-30T22:37:23Z White_Flame: as I've said elsewhere, you tend not to even think of those sorts of solutions in other languages, because the tools & work to get there are too complex.  But when code generation & transformation is so easy, you're way more empowered even though it's technically feasible elsewhere
2017-12-30T22:37:26Z LexLeoGryfon: White_Flame: I beleive we can do introspection and change code\instances in runtime too https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4407907/python-how-to-change-functionality-of-a-method-during-runtime#4408225 1-1 lisp vs python
2017-12-30T22:37:31Z Baggers: Xach: ugh I hadnt pushed the release branch. I'll check the others to see if I have slipped up elsewhere. Is it possible to subscribe to these test results so I see the failures (and hopefully fix them) without bothering you?
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2017-12-30T22:38:08Z aeth: s/when something/when and how something/
2017-12-30T22:38:15Z White_Flame: LexLeoGryfon: I suggest, if you really want to know the differences, to go through actual Lisp learning/tutorial material to evaluate the differences between the macro systems
2017-12-30T22:38:47Z random-nick: LexLeoGryfon: but can you easily create a new statement which is just like if but binds the test to a variable?
2017-12-30T22:38:50Z White_Flame: because no, that's not metaprogramming; that's simply having slots to place function objects
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2017-12-30T22:38:56Z random-nick: s/test/test result/
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2017-12-30T22:39:05Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: You can do most of the things that Common Lisp can do in other languages, but (1) usually it's much harder and (2) you will need to use several very different languages to exactly match the feature set of CL because it's ridiculously multiparadigm
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2017-12-30T22:39:15Z aeth: s/most of the things/all of the things/
2017-12-30T22:40:14Z random-nick: yes, since most programming languages are turing-complete
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2017-12-30T22:40:42Z aeth: random-nick: But not every paradigm is efficient in every language.
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2017-12-30T22:41:04Z White_Flame: "efficient" in the amount of programmer work, especially
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2017-12-30T22:41:48Z White_Flame: I tend to point to PCRE
2017-12-30T22:42:30Z White_Flame: in C, you either need to interpret runtime data (massive slowdown in CLIPS expressions), or do all sorts of massive architecture to get JIT code generation (PCRE)
2017-12-30T22:43:03Z White_Flame: in Lisp, you can simply generate new code in basically AST form, using literal templates and such right in-language, and have it be machine-code compiled transparently
2017-12-30T22:43:21Z White_Flame: those sorts of leaps are all over the place in Lisp usage
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2017-12-30T22:44:06Z LexLeoGryfon: random-nick: thats FUN point regarding creation of new syntax\statements , yes we can create macro in python with that https://github.com/lihaoyi/macropy and similiar libs. But for which task do we really need to create DSL? I beleive we could get away with simple functions\classes. even this https://amoffat.github.io/sh/ looks OK fine for me, even without new DSL.
2017-12-30T22:44:21Z White_Flame: and anybody who's ever built up code in eval(string) oriented languages knows the pain of not having a proper AST form of code available
2017-12-30T22:44:53Z White_Flame: LexLeoGryfon: again, regular functions/classes are fine for basic code
2017-12-30T22:45:02Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: A macro is the last level of abstraction, above functions and objects.
2017-12-30T22:45:11Z White_Flame: once you increase the level of complexity, modification becomes difficult without things like DSLs
2017-12-30T22:45:14Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: You need full syntactic control to get declarative end results.
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2017-12-30T22:46:26Z aeth: Macros have an advantage over functions because you can control exactly when and how they evaluate things, so you can produce better high level abstractions.
2017-12-30T22:47:03Z White_Flame: if you haven't said to yourself "Ugh, I wish Python would do X for me, it would make things so much easier", then you're just either not aware of the slow rate of development you're enduring, or your projects are simple enough not to hit the boundaries of your environment
2017-12-30T22:47:07Z aeth: Common Lisp is a language for writing inline declarative languages that look like they were part of the main language the whole time.
2017-12-30T22:47:42Z aeth: Some things simply cannot be abstracted with functions, but they can almost always be abstracted with macros. Macros are for when functions fail.
2017-12-30T22:47:45Z random-nick: even if you ignore the whole macro machinery, common lisp is a pretty good language
2017-12-30T22:47:49Z random-nick: especially CLOS
2017-12-30T22:48:20Z Shinmera: I really hate the "DSL" description in relation to Lisp since usually people think of DSLs as entirely separate things like ini files or whatever that share close to nothing with the "host" language.
2017-12-30T22:48:36Z White_Flame: good point
2017-12-30T22:49:34Z Shinmera: And if you think about macros creating DSLs that are very constrained in what they can do, it's easy to think there isn't much use for them.
2017-12-30T22:50:04Z Shinmera: The whole point of macros is that they extend the language, not create "sub-languages"
2017-12-30T22:50:49Z aeth: You have full control in CL how to embed the language. A string? format does this. cl-ppcre does this. A fancy macro? loop does this. A syntactically regular macro? do does this. A reader macro? I'm sure that's used somewhere. A separate file? Probably been done. And *separate* from this, you have control over when and how it's evaluated. Some of them can be fully compile time.
2017-12-30T22:51:19Z aeth: e.g. I generate GLSL shader strings at compile time, and SBCL produces the output as constant strings in the FASL file when I compile them. And it's not any harder than doing it with functions.
2017-12-30T22:52:02Z aeth: A language as a string, reader macro, or separate files can all be implemented the exact same way, with a stream.
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2017-12-30T22:52:09Z Shinmera: aeth: Embedding a language isn't very interesting. People can do that elsewhere with strings and extra files too. The interesting use is things that extend and integrate seamlessly like ITERATE, CLOS, etc.
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2017-12-30T22:52:40Z aeth: Shinmera: People do that elsewhere with other people's libraries because it's a hard problem in most other languages.
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2017-12-30T22:53:04Z pagnol: is anyone here aware of a cl library similar in spirit to https://construct.readthedocs.io/en/latest/# ?
2017-12-30T22:53:21Z aeth: Working with mini-languages in CL is trivial, especially if you keep them as s-expressions.
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2017-12-30T22:54:04Z White_Flame: pagnol: I started on one, but went on to other things.  I got it to the point where it could parse java .class files including disassembling the byte codes & deferring through the constant tables
2017-12-30T22:54:12Z Shinmera: pagnol: Have a look at binary-types
2017-12-30T22:54:18Z random-nick: also, looks like that macropy doesn't really let you create macros that really fit into the language
2017-12-30T22:54:36Z random-nick: there doesn't seem to be a way to create new statements
2017-12-30T22:54:39Z pagnol: White_Flame, I'm not familiar with the format used by class files but sounds like you got rather far?
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2017-12-30T22:54:58Z Baggers: LexLeoGryfon: I'll just nip into this discussion to say that I feel this stuff is part of the spectrum of dynamic & static code. Why emulate/interpret/jit something when you dont need to? macros can be about more than just syntax (although they get used for this too). Why dynamically dispatch when the function to call is absolutely known at compile time? Macros can let you provide insights to compilation that would
2017-12-30T22:54:58Z Baggers: be too hard or too expensive for the compiler to reason about itself. I love python myself, but IIRC transforming the ast at compile time stuff isnt integrated into the standard build flow. There is, I agree, a good deal of BS around lisps (no syntax and that nonsense) and thats a shame as some damn enjoyable aspects in these languages
2017-12-30T22:55:07Z LexLeoGryfon: we can make DSL in Python https://dbader.org/blog/writing-a-dsl-with-python
2017-12-30T22:55:22Z White_Flame: pagnol: yeah, but many of its features were implemented a little too specific for their particular use case in that instance, so it's not generalized enough to be a general tool
2017-12-30T22:55:47Z pagnol: White_Flame, if it's on github, mind if I take a look nevertheless?
2017-12-30T22:55:56Z White_Flame: not on github unfortunately
2017-12-30T22:56:43Z Xach: Baggers: did you see my link from earlier?
2017-12-30T22:57:28Z random-nick: LexLeoGryfon: that's not what the Common Lisp community thinks when they say "DSL"
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2017-12-30T22:57:33Z Baggers: Xach: yes thankyou. I replied a little way up too. I had forgotten to push the latest from that repo
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2017-12-30T22:58:18Z Shinmera: My new year's wish is for people to stop using "DSL" to try to describe macros
2017-12-30T22:58:22Z Baggers: Xach: just checking the others now. Is it possible to subscribe to these test results so I see the failures (and hopefully fix them) without bothering you?
2017-12-30T22:58:31Z random-nick: iirc the clojure community uses the abbrevation "eDSL" for "embedded Domain Specific Language"
2017-12-30T22:58:44Z random-nick: which is a lot more clear
2017-12-30T22:58:54Z Shinmera: Not really
2017-12-30T22:59:14Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: In Common Lisp, you can use reader macros to embed a syntactically different DSL directly into the source code of the .lisp file, no separate file necessary. And it will be compiled ahead of time with the .lisp file. No interpreter necessary.
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2017-12-30T23:00:16Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: e.g. here is some inline brainfuck as a reader macro that's compiled to Common Lisp and then compiled to a FASL, as if it was just written in Common Lisp in the first place. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/blob/72d8cf45a14f0e09429a3a20a84a865b95b50f22/brainfuck-examples.lisp#L21-23
2017-12-30T23:00:39Z aeth: if you don't want to follow the link, it's just  #4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.)
2017-12-30T23:00:51Z aeth: No separate file. No string. It looks like it's part of the language, sort of.
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2017-12-30T23:01:02Z Shinmera: Again that's not really interesting because what's the point of doing that when a string works just as well
2017-12-30T23:01:22Z pagnol: White_Flame, out of curiosity: what were you going to do with the class files?
2017-12-30T23:01:26Z White_Flame: I think the best simple example of reader macros is adding full datetime "primitives" to the language
2017-12-30T23:01:39Z White_Flame: pagnol: java-in-lisp stuff
2017-12-30T23:01:41Z aeth: Shinmera: Inline Scheme would be a better example. A language that uses s-expressions but has subtle differences in syntax that would necessitate a reader macro to properly do the inline Scheme.
2017-12-30T23:01:57Z aeth: CL is perfectly capable of doing that.
2017-12-30T23:02:06Z aeth: Shinmera: Also, most languages would probably interpret the string, this is compiled as CL.
2017-12-30T23:02:26Z Shinmera: Much simpler example: Allowing the use of {}[] as regular parens
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2017-12-30T23:02:52Z Shinmera: You can do that with four lines of code
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2017-12-30T23:04:11Z LexLeoGryfon: k, maybe you have some points :) i'm sleepy, going to bed (EU time), have a good night, thank you for your time
2017-12-30T23:04:25Z Baggers: sleep well
2017-12-30T23:04:27Z aeth: Although, really, the #1 reason is that the SBCL compiler is about 10x faster than the Python interpreter.
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2017-12-30T23:04:38Z aeth: 10x speedup is enough to be noticable, even without any feature benefits.
2017-12-30T23:05:07Z LexLeoGryfon: aeth: dude I have C like perfomance of my code with cython+pypy ;)
2017-12-30T23:05:12Z aeth: What that means is that it takes a lot more performance requirements before we have to resort to C or C++ or Fortran libraries.
2017-12-30T23:05:19Z aeth: So we can keep everything in one language for longer.
2017-12-30T23:05:33Z White_Flame: ugh, somebody abused away paste.lisp.org? lame
2017-12-30T23:05:42Z aeth: Obviously if you're going to be calling into the same C libraries, there's not as big of a difference.
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2017-12-30T23:06:39Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: The problem is that most of the Python ecosystem is mostly around the slowest popular programming language implementation in existence.
2017-12-30T23:06:53Z aeth: Most of the CL ecosystem is (mostly) portable, so we can choose the fast implementation with essentially no ecosystem penalties.
2017-12-30T23:07:04Z Baggers: LexLeoGryfon: ignore aeth, hes talking shit again
2017-12-30T23:07:10Z Shinmera: White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ might be a usable alternative in the interim.
2017-12-30T23:07:26Z aeth: Sorry, Lua's slower
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2017-12-30T23:07:35Z LexLeoGryfon: aeth: bs, we have a lot major projects in pypy fast runtime, like Django, etc n stuff
2017-12-30T23:07:53Z aeth: LexLeoGryfon: And I hope the Python community moves to Pypy
2017-12-30T23:08:03Z aeth: Please.
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2017-12-30T23:08:21Z aeth: Pypy is a major improvement.
2017-12-30T23:08:24Z White_Flame: pagnol: found my syntax file for .class, though the bytecodes are in another one: https://pastebin.com/raw/U0mpKpr7
2017-12-30T23:08:47Z pagnol: White_Flame, thanks, I'll take a look :)
2017-12-30T23:09:03Z White_Flame: and heck, LexLeoGryfon should look at that as an example of DSL'ing right in the language
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2017-12-30T23:09:52Z LexLeoGryfon looking
2017-12-30T23:10:15Z aeth: Okay, it looks like Pypy isn't as far behind the main implementation as it used to be.
2017-12-30T23:10:21Z White_Flame: even the "def" itself is custom code, and the entire system to consume that spec and give a fully broken down AST of a java .class file is only 415 lines of code
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2017-12-30T23:11:00Z aeth: For a very long time, PyPy was this cool, fast thing that you could basically not use for most Python projects.
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2017-12-30T23:11:09Z LexLeoGryfon: White_Flame: crazy neat
2017-12-30T23:11:12Z White_Flame: (:find <table> <index> <value>) can even dereference pointers/indexes/offsets between items in the file
2017-12-30T23:11:30Z White_Flame: again, 415 lines to implement all that
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2017-12-30T23:12:53Z White_Flame: I'm technically a big fan of data-driven programming, which I guess might be a subset of DSLs in general
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2017-12-30T23:13:17Z LexLeoGryfon: aeth: 3.5 latest supported version. cpython stable currently at 3.6 . pypy now have better support of c-extension, numpy, etc, and  lotsa major projects.
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2017-12-30T23:20:50Z _death: this isn't a channel for discussing python
2017-12-30T23:20:58Z _death: unless it's the python compiler
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2017-12-30T23:21:34Z White_Flame: (spoiler: the compiler tech inside SBCL & CMUCL is called "Python", and existed long before python the language)
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2017-12-30T23:25:02Z Baggers: White_Flame: was it using the name python during the Spice project?
2017-12-30T23:26:18Z White_Flame: spece as in the circuit emulator?
2017-12-30T23:26:20Z White_Flame: *spice
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2017-12-30T23:27:00Z Baggers: White_Flame: nah, early days of cmucl https://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/cmucl-history.html I was wondering when they started using the name python
2017-12-30T23:27:29Z Baggers: ah wait 'It was in 1985 that I [Rob MacLachlan] started work on Python.'
2017-12-30T23:27:42Z Baggers: so 4 years before python the language
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2017-12-30T23:34:13Z Xach: Baggers: I'd like to make something like that (subscribe to bug reports)
2017-12-30T23:34:16Z Xach: Build failures
2017-12-30T23:34:40Z Xach: You can visit http://report.quicklisp.org/ but that shows everything, would be nice to have individual feeds for individual projects
2017-12-30T23:34:53Z Xach will think about publishing rss for each alongside
2017-12-30T23:35:40Z Xach: Baggers: is that what you meant by feed?
2017-12-30T23:36:47Z Baggers: Xach: absolutely, rss sounds like it would do perfectly
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2017-12-30T23:42:06Z mfiano: Xach: That would be a killer feature to subscriber to individual projects so you can get next day fixes ready without tracking us down
2017-12-30T23:42:16Z mfiano: subscribe*
2017-12-30T23:42:52Z Shinmera gets ready to subscribe to ~70 feeds
2017-12-30T23:43:14Z Xach: ok, i will whip something up
2017-12-30T23:43:26Z _death: can have a bot that creates issues for failing projects
2017-12-30T23:43:27Z Baggers: Shinmera: serves you right for making useful stuff :)
2017-12-30T23:43:42Z Xach: _death: I hesitate to go that far
2017-12-30T23:43:55Z Shinmera: _death: Spamming issues for projects that are temporarily in flux doesn't sound great
2017-12-30T23:44:06Z Xach: That's partly my worry
2017-12-30T23:44:29Z _death: Shinmera: it be smarter than a dumb failure->action
2017-12-30T23:45:28Z _death: ah, my broken english suggests that it may be time to sleep ;)
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2017-12-30T23:49:30Z Shinmera: _death: How would it be able to discern whether a failure is just temporary or unintended?
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2017-12-30T23:54:04Z _death: Shinmera: it could for example delay its response.. maybe also take into account the time of a new quicklisp dist upgrade.. and there could also be an interface for project authors where they could tweak things, perhaps disabling it entirely..
2017-12-30T23:54:39Z Shinmera: Well now we're getting into the territory of "a lot of effort"
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2017-12-31T00:00:29Z Shinmera: If I wasn't tied up with ELS, my thesis, exams, and Lichat, I'd offer to help out with such an infrastructure
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2017-12-31T00:00:40Z Shinmera: But for now I have too much in the cooker
2017-12-31T00:00:49Z Xach: I think I can crank out an rss feed per project within a few hours. (I can recycle some podcast rss code.)
2017-12-31T00:01:22Z Shinmera: Well, I was referring to _death's advanced suggestions
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2017-12-31T00:01:51Z Shinmera: But yeah, feeds would already go a long way
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2017-12-31T00:02:18Z _death: it's just an idea :).. low hanging fruit is great as well
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2017-12-31T00:51:19Z mfiano: Is there anything in alexandria similar to this, but which will allow duplicating elements to find all combinations as well, such as (X X X) '(X X Y) etc? (let ((results)) (alexandria:map-permutations (lambda (x) (push x results)) '(x y z) :length 3) results) => ((Z Y X) (Y Z X) (X Z Y) (Z X Y) (Y X Z) (X Y Z))
2017-12-31T00:51:48Z mfiano: Or how would you normally go about this with a mapping idiom?
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2017-12-31T00:54:20Z Xach: Well
2017-12-31T00:54:31Z Xach: I could group together feeds based on github username prefixes
2017-12-31T00:54:40Z Xach: That could help limit the amount of subscriptions needed
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2017-12-31T01:08:24Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: The more I work with this API, the more I realize how strange some things are
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2017-12-31T01:09:10Z jmercouris: AeroNotix: You can't even get the length of a gtk-list-store!
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2017-12-31T01:10:31Z ykoda: jmercouris: Which API?
2017-12-31T01:10:45Z jmercouris: ykoda: GTK
2017-12-31T01:11:03Z jmercouris: I'm working with cl-cffi-gtk which is a relatively thin layer over GTK
2017-12-31T01:11:21Z jmercouris: At least it feels thin, feels like I'm doing C programming in Lisp
2017-12-31T01:11:22Z mfiano: Actually, what I need is the "power set", but with repetitions allowed. This is the standard power set. https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Power_set#Common_Lisp Does anyone know if my requirements has a name?
2017-12-31T01:11:39Z ykoda: Oh cool!
2017-12-31T01:11:53Z jmercouris: ykoda: Definitely not cool :D more like frustrating
2017-12-31T01:12:32Z ykoda: lol! Yeah, I played around with a gtk library at one point but gave up. Since then I've been working on ECL + Cpp + QT
2017-12-31T01:13:13Z jmercouris: ykoda: Ah yeah, that is a very good combination, very easy, though deployment is a nightmare
2017-12-31T01:13:14Z ykoda: Something like this: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-Quarterly-Volume-V.html#orgheadline10
2017-12-31T01:13:19Z ykoda: Ohhh is it?
2017-12-31T01:13:36Z jmercouris: ykoda: I'm very familiar with the technology :)
2017-12-31T01:13:48Z jmercouris: I worked quite a bit with it and developed the deployment for MacOS
2017-12-31T01:13:59Z jmercouris: I can help you with it if you have any problems
2017-12-31T01:14:21Z ykoda: I've primarily been a Xamarin guy for cross platform / mobile, so it's a crazy different world
2017-12-31T01:14:50Z jmercouris: Hmm yeah, Xamarin is something else entirely
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2017-12-31T01:16:03Z ykoda: Oh definitely, it's just a nice way to get at the native stuff through .Net (unless you use Xamarin forms)
2017-12-31T01:17:02Z ykoda: What about QT/ECL deployment sucks?
2017-12-31T01:17:29Z ykoda: I'm thinking about using that combo for a project, but if it's going to be pain I'll find another way
2017-12-31T01:17:33Z jmercouris: ykoda: When deploying QT applications you usually want to bundle in a standalone app your users can double click, this is problematic because of some strange linking that occurs within EQL
2017-12-31T01:18:05Z jmercouris: Some modules are dynamically loaded, and this involves attempting to load the shared lib, which of course does not exist on every users' computer
2017-12-31T01:18:15Z jmercouris: so you want to force loading of the libs located within your application bundle
2017-12-31T01:19:26Z ykoda: Hmmm, do they have an installer creator tool that will bundle dependencies?
2017-12-31T01:19:57Z jmercouris: ykoda: There is something like that called macdeployqt
2017-12-31T01:20:12Z jmercouris: but unfortunately it is a garbage tool that only works on the most standard of applications, and even then it doesn't work
2017-12-31T01:20:32Z ykoda: Oh joy
2017-12-31T01:20:37Z jmercouris: The real question is what is your deployment strategy, and on which platforms do you wish to deploy
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2017-12-31T01:22:29Z ykoda: Just getting into it, so I don't have good answers. Mac/Linux/Windows for sure
2017-12-31T01:22:53Z jmercouris: I see, well when you get closer to deployment, feel free to reach out to me
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2017-12-31T01:23:45Z ykoda: Thanks, man! With lisp I've only ever built cli tools, never had any success with guis. I end up going back to C#
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2017-12-31T01:24:25Z ykoda: I write enterprise crap all day at work, so it feels natural to use C#, sadly
2017-12-31T01:24:31Z jmercouris: ykoda: Yeah, it is a challenge, you can try MCClim as well, I've heard good things about it
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2017-12-31T01:25:29Z ykoda: I'll give that a look. A guy who I'm working with uses python + qt at work, so he's interested in using qt, but I might be able to talk him out of it
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2017-12-31T01:26:49Z ykoda: McCLIM ui looks dated but solid. I can dig it
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2017-12-31T01:27:05Z jmercouris: ykoda: There's a lot of work being put into it recently
2017-12-31T01:27:16Z jmercouris: I mean if you are going to use lisp, might as well go all the way lol
2017-12-31T01:27:28Z jmercouris: It'll make it easier to embrace the technology
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2017-12-31T01:28:36Z ykoda: Definitely. And yeah, the repo's super active for a lisp repo
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2017-12-31T01:30:39Z ykoda: This looks pretty rad, thanks man
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2017-12-31T01:33:04Z jmercouris: ykoda: No problem :)
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2017-12-31T02:08:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: ykoda: the only problem with mcclim is that it only works on Linux or Mac with XQuartz
2017-12-31T02:08:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: (although someone was working on a Windows backend, and I'm interested in fixing an old Mac backend)
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2017-12-31T02:11:44Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Writing a backend for cl-sdl2+cl-opengl could help with portability
2017-12-31T02:12:02Z ykoda: Yeah, I noticed the bit about it being able to run on systems that can run X11
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2017-12-31T02:23:31Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof: You are going to work on beagle?
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2017-12-31T02:40:36Z asarch: Languages with similar syntax: '(Haskell Elm Erlang OCaml Caml), '(C C++ C## Java Go C# Vala)
2017-12-31T02:40:59Z asarch: While in Lisp: "Macros are what make lisp the greatest programming language in the world. When used properly, macros enable amazing feats of abstraction, programmer productivity, and code efficiency and security that are unheard of elsewhere. Macros let you do things you simply cannot do in other languages." -- From Let Over Lambda from Doug Hoyte
2017-12-31T02:41:06Z asarch: So, why to bother?
2017-12-31T02:41:35Z parjanya: why bother with the other ones? ; )
2017-12-31T02:41:42Z asarch: Yeah!
2017-12-31T02:42:19Z asarch: I was reading about the development process from Naughty Dog and its GOAL implementation, is it available?
2017-12-31T02:43:20Z Bike: sort of doubt it
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2017-12-31T02:44:41Z aeth: Most gamedev stuff never gets open sourced. Id's classic engines are the most notable exceptions.
2017-12-31T02:44:49Z asarch: Oh :-(
2017-12-31T02:45:11Z aeth: Sometimes it's impossible because of commercial middleware
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2017-12-31T02:46:00Z mfiano: It would be nice if Mirai was though
2017-12-31T02:48:38Z asarch: Sadly, "geniuses" at Google don't do Lisp
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2017-12-31T02:49:12Z Bike: what, the worm?
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2017-12-31T02:52:22Z asarch: Is there any shell interpreter that understands Lisp?
2017-12-31T02:52:33Z presiden: eshell
2017-12-31T02:52:40Z asarch: Thank you!
2017-12-31T02:52:48Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2017-12-31T02:53:03Z presiden: it's Elisp tho
2017-12-31T02:53:28Z asarch: From Emacs?
2017-12-31T02:53:52Z presiden: yes
2017-12-31T02:55:52Z asarch: Is there any outside it?
2017-12-31T02:59:37Z aeth: asarch: I am considering writing one. An eshell-like shell requires only several parts. (1) Turn the line "foo bar baz" into "(foo bar baz)" if the function foo exists, (2) if the function foo does not exist, use UIOP to call the external program "foo" with the arguments "bar baz", (3) implement piping, output/input redirection, etc., with gray streams or some other approach, ...
2017-12-31T02:59:42Z aeth: ..., (4) gradually implement the basic shell commands like mv and rm as built-in CL functions with the POSIX API
2017-12-31T02:59:52Z ykoda: asarch: there is this https://clisp.sourceforge.io/clash.html
2017-12-31T02:59:56Z aeth: And that, afaik, is all you need to clone eshell.
2017-12-31T03:00:30Z aeth: There might be some trickier parts like the shell ";" and the shell "&&" and the shell "||"
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2017-12-31T03:02:09Z mfiano thinks "requires only several parts" reads as "doable in X amount of time", coupled with an 'etcetera', that doesn't really say much :)
2017-12-31T03:02:11Z aeth: I don't think anyone has specifically attempted an eshell clone in CL, though.
2017-12-31T03:02:42Z aeth: mfiano: The etc is just to cover up for anything I missed. Is there anything other than |, >, >>, <, &>, etc.?
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2017-12-31T03:02:53Z aeth: Although I guess that still doesn't help :-p
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2017-12-31T03:03:54Z aeth: I actually wonder how many of those eshell itself implements
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2017-12-31T03:04:57Z asarch: What about pipes?
2017-12-31T03:06:32Z aeth: mfiano: But, you've caught me, I tend to implement the easiest 60% of something and then move on, so I'd probably stop half way through step 3 and leave it half-finished
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2017-12-31T03:07:01Z mfiano: Moreso, I just didn't think 'several' belongs next to 'only' if you want to convey any meaning whatsoever :)
2017-12-31T03:08:40Z aeth: well, afaik the design for cloning eshell is just (1) execute CL commands at the top level if the function exists, (2) call external programs like a shell if the function does not exist, (3) implement shell redirection in CL, (4) reimplement the core shell functionality in CL so #1 is actually useful.
2017-12-31T03:08:49Z aeth: It really is just those 4 steps unless I'm missing a feature
2017-12-31T03:10:02Z aeth: e.g. "+ 1 1" yields the same thing as "(+ 1 1)" and "ls -l" uses its own internal ls ("which ls" tells you that it uses a function in em-ls.el)
2017-12-31T03:10:23Z aeth: Strangely, (ls) isn't valid, so it isn't quite as simple as I thought.
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2017-12-31T03:11:11Z aeth: It looks like there's a third category of commands, Lisp functions with shell APIs and only shell APIs.
2017-12-31T03:11:59Z aeth: ah, it's (eshell/ls)
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2017-12-31T03:13:15Z aeth: It's also a really good clone of ls's functionality
2017-12-31T03:14:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: hopefully, I need to learn more about the low-level details of osx first because there are some weird issues with the current library.
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2017-12-31T03:25:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there something that makes it so that the results of reader-macros don't get macroexpanded?
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2017-12-31T03:27:34Z |3b|: they are completely unrelated
2017-12-31T03:28:14Z |3b|: things that would expand macros have no idea how the things they would expand were created, whether it involved reader macros or not
2017-12-31T03:28:34Z White_Flame: the reader macro could expand into a quoted something
2017-12-31T03:28:38Z |3b|: so anything that would prevent that expansion would do so regardless of source as well
2017-12-31T03:29:19Z White_Flame: but an automatically quoted expansion wouldn't do well in '(foo #reader-macro-thing bar), as the quotes would then nest
2017-12-31T03:29:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Weird, that's what I thought, but I'm getting function undefined errors because some macro doesn't seem to be getting expanded
2017-12-31T03:30:12Z |3b|: well, /when/ things are READ/expanded/evaluated might also matter for that
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2017-12-31T03:31:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm
2017-12-31T03:32:13Z White_Flame: have you tried manually macroexpanding the output of the reader function?
2017-12-31T03:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, I'm getting the same error
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2017-12-31T03:32:48Z Bike: package issue?
2017-12-31T03:33:09Z |3b|: also try manually READing the source and make sure that looks right?
2017-12-31T03:33:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-12-31T03:34:30Z White_Flame: if you're getting an error macroexpanding the reader macro, that smells like the error is happening during the reader macro processing itself, before its result is passed on
2017-12-31T03:34:54Z White_Flame: what happens if you just quote it?
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2017-12-31T03:35:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: It comes out right
2017-12-31T03:36:09Z White_Flame: ok, then yeah it might be a package error or something
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2017-12-31T03:36:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: and (macroexpand-1 '[ns-application shared-application]) even expands the macro
2017-12-31T03:36:21Z White_Flame: need something more specific to debug any furthe
2017-12-31T03:36:34Z Bike: well, that last is pretty weird.
2017-12-31T03:36:54Z Bike: i'm guessing some package problem because that's how it is like half the time
2017-12-31T03:37:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm going to try starting from scratch :)
2017-12-31T03:38:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-12-31T03:41:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
2017-12-31T03:43:27Z presiden: morning beach
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2017-12-31T03:44:17Z pransninja: Hello
2017-12-31T03:44:19Z pransninja: How does the sbcl and other REPL works?
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2017-12-31T03:44:43Z pransninja: As in, how does the compile and run code works?
2017-12-31T03:44:59Z aeth: I think the SBCL REPL works by writing the expression to /tmp/ and then compiling that temporary file.
2017-12-31T03:45:01Z pransninja: How is the same "thread" and "contexts" are kept?
2017-12-31T03:45:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: They Read the input, Evaluate the read form, Print the result and then Loop back to the Read
2017-12-31T03:45:04Z beach: The first READ the expression.  Then they EVAL what they read, and finally, they PRINT the result.
2017-12-31T03:45:23Z pransninja: So every "run" compiles and reruns the whole thing?
2017-12-31T03:45:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (loop (print (eval (read *standard-input*))))
2017-12-31T03:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: It can, that's unspecified
2017-12-31T03:45:37Z rme: aeth; I don't think that's true. It's certainly not true for CCL.
2017-12-31T03:45:39Z aeth: Some Lisps, like SBCL, compile the expression in the REPL. Other Lisps evaluate things in the REPL.
2017-12-31T03:45:46Z pransninja: I don't think that is true either
2017-12-31T03:45:49Z pransninja: I am making some changes to fs
2017-12-31T03:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: pransninja: sbcl can switch to interpreted mode
2017-12-31T03:46:01Z beach: pransninja: A modern implementation will just compile the code, stick it somewhere in memory as a function, and then call that function.
2017-12-31T03:46:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, by default, I think sbcl does what beach says
2017-12-31T03:46:23Z pransninja: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh My God. So it is JIT? please tell me it is not.
2017-12-31T03:46:25Z aeth: Lisps have a compiler and an interpreter (actually, I think SBCL has several interpreters iirc). By default, SBCL compiles everything, even things at the REPL. Some Lisps might use their interpreter at the REPL
2017-12-31T03:46:30Z pransninja: I really want it to be some other cool thing.
2017-12-31T03:46:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: not this again...
2017-12-31T03:46:42Z Bike: it compiles when you put a form in
2017-12-31T03:46:46Z Bike: if that means jit to you, it's jit
2017-12-31T03:47:15Z aeth: Lisps have runtime compilation of functions, but they lack the whole continually analyzing the execution to recompile it more efficiently that people normally think of when they think of JITs.
2017-12-31T03:47:23Z |3b|: most CL implementations are run-time AOT compilers
2017-12-31T03:47:33Z Bike: it's not magic or anything. you put something in it compiles it. easy to understand
2017-12-31T03:47:35Z pransninja: So not tracing, but it is actually JIT?
2017-12-31T03:47:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (setf sb-ext:*evalutator-mode* :interpret) makes sbcl into an intepreter, I think
2017-12-31T03:47:45Z aeth: Lisps are usually AOT-compilation where you can (re)compile a function at runtime before calling it.
2017-12-31T03:47:47Z pransninja: As in, compile, put it on memory, mark it executable thing?
2017-12-31T03:47:53Z Bike: It does that, yes.
2017-12-31T03:47:58Z pransninja: Does that means in envs like iOS you can't have a lisp REPL? :(((
2017-12-31T03:48:14Z Bike: i think it's kind of annoying on iOS, yeah.
2017-12-31T03:48:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, you can implement eval with an interpreter, which would be allowed on iOS
2017-12-31T03:48:27Z pransninja: Or can you actually have a common lisp interpreter?
2017-12-31T03:48:30Z Bike: you can still have an evaluator though.
2017-12-31T03:48:37Z pransninja: Cool, thanks!
2017-12-31T03:48:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: ECL also has an interpreter, iirc
2017-12-31T03:49:07Z Bike: iiiii wanna say it compiles to bitcode and interprets that
2017-12-31T03:49:08Z Bike: not sure
2017-12-31T03:49:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, not sure either, but I remember being surprised by how it works
2017-12-31T03:49:51Z Bike: on clasp, which uses llvm, to do this repl compilation stuff it uses llvm's "JIT" thing, because llvm is otherwise based on serializing compiled code rather than running it, i guess.
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2017-12-31T03:50:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, ECL does have a bytecode interpreter or something
2017-12-31T03:50:27Z pransninja: this is interesting
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2017-12-31T03:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: As we were saying the other day, "compiled language" and "interpreted language" are phrases that don't mean anything :)
2017-12-31T03:53:17Z pransninja: At the end of the day it all boils down to a few instruction ;)
2017-12-31T03:53:24Z pransninja: or a simple movie if you're very evil https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
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2017-12-31T03:53:46Z |3b|: if i remember right, clisp can either evaluate directly, compile to bytecode and interpret that, or JIT the bytecode (last is experimental feature i think, not sure if it got released)
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2017-12-31T03:55:27Z |3b|: who needs instructions, isn't the MMU turing complete? :p
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2017-12-31T04:03:59Z pransninja: The more I learn lisp, the more I see how it is super primitive, even simpler than ASM, yet so powerful.
2017-12-31T04:04:12Z pransninja: It is kind of majestic.
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2017-12-31T04:10:32Z pransninja: "And because NIL, as I mentioned previously, is the name of a constant variable with the symbol NIL as its value, the expressions nil, (), 'nil, and '() all evaluate to the same thing--the unquoted forms are evaluated as a reference to the constant variable whose value is the symbol NIL, but in the quoted forms the QUOTE special operator evaluates to the symbol directly. "
2017-12-31T04:10:39Z pransninja: My head hurts. What does that means?
2017-12-31T04:11:08Z antonv: if I want with hunchentoot to set the session cookie to both 'www.mydomain.net' and 'mydomain.net', how whould I do that?
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2017-12-31T04:11:10Z pransninja: So '() is the same as 'nil which is to say Symbol of nil which is the same as nil value?
2017-12-31T04:12:08Z Bike: (symbol-value 'nil) => NIL. it's a constant variable bound to itself
2017-12-31T04:12:14Z Bike: () also reads as nil
2017-12-31T04:12:17Z antonv: pransninja: yes, in CL symbols have value, and some symbols refer themselves as the value
2017-12-31T04:12:35Z Bike: and '() is just the same as () since nil is self evaluating
2017-12-31T04:12:49Z antonv: so about hunchtood and sessions for both www.domain and just doman, how to do that?
2017-12-31T04:12:56Z pransninja: Let's take a step back.
2017-12-31T04:13:03Z pransninja: What does 'x exactly means in contrast to x?
2017-12-31T04:13:12Z pransninja: I understand it is to say "the symbol of x".
2017-12-31T04:13:18Z pransninja: As in, contrast to the value of x?
2017-12-31T04:13:38Z antonv: pransninja: do you know C?
2017-12-31T04:13:55Z Bike: 'x is reader syntax for (quote x)
2017-12-31T04:14:01Z beach: pransninja: '<anything> is a reader macro that generates (quote <anything>) and QUOTE is a special operator that returns the argument unevaluated.
2017-12-31T04:14:03Z Bike: quote is a special operator
2017-12-31T04:15:02Z pransninja: antonv: Set the doamin to mydomain.net, or perhaps .mydomain because of RFC2109, but RFC6265 is mostly implemented everywhere
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2017-12-31T04:15:34Z pransninja: antonv: Yes, a lil here and there.
2017-12-31T04:15:45Z pransninja: So how come 'nil and nil is the same thing?
2017-12-31T04:16:03Z pransninja: Oh, because nil evaluated is still nil?
2017-12-31T04:16:08Z Bike: right, it evaluates to itself.
2017-12-31T04:16:27Z pransninja: as if (defavr lol "lol"), where lol and 'lol is the same?
2017-12-31T04:16:41Z Bike: no, "lol" is a string, not a symbol
2017-12-31T04:16:43Z |3b|: nil and 'nil are different things that evaluate to the same thing
2017-12-31T04:17:00Z pransninja: So more like (defvar lol 'lol)?
2017-12-31T04:17:11Z antonv: presiden: can you have in C a pointer variable? and then set the value of that pointer variable to it's own address? The same with NIL - it's a symbol whose value is itself
2017-12-31T04:17:29Z Bike: pransninja: like that, yes.
2017-12-31T04:17:41Z pransninja: Bike: Okay, now I understand. Thanks everyone.
2017-12-31T04:17:42Z antonv: The problem with hunchentoot sessions - I see no API to specify domain
2017-12-31T04:17:57Z Bike: couldn't you only do that with a void*? it seems kind of weird
2017-12-31T04:18:01Z pransninja: antonv: That is a crazy example, but I see it. :)
2017-12-31T04:18:11Z |3b|: so can be distinguished if you don't evaluate them. for example (mapcar 'length '(nil () 'nil (quote nil))) -> (0 0 2 2)
2017-12-31T04:18:55Z pransninja: antonv: You just set the :name of cookie to '.mydomain.net' and it will be sent with every subdomain too.
2017-12-31T04:19:40Z pransninja: cool beans
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2017-12-31T04:51:30Z pransninja: .
2017-12-31T04:52:18Z pjb: antonv: in C, it is not really possible, because of the type system.
2017-12-31T04:53:23Z pjb: antonv: eg.  void* p=&p; is wrong on some level, because &p is of type void** not void*.  Now of course, given the rules of void*, it will be accepted.  But is it acceptable?
2017-12-31T04:53:48Z pjb: antonv: and lisp symbols are not pointers.
2017-12-31T04:54:58Z pjb: To do the equivalent in C, you need a more complex structure, with struct, union, etc; basically you need to implement symbols in C.
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2017-12-31T04:56:04Z antonv: pjb: right, I just wanted to explain the idea
2017-12-31T04:56:10Z antonv: a reference referencing to itself
2017-12-31T04:56:15Z antonv: it's not a precise analogy
2017-12-31T04:56:17Z pjb: Don't use C to explain lisp.
2017-12-31T04:56:23Z pjb: Use lisp to explain lisp.
2017-12-31T04:57:08Z antonv: pjb, I can explain lisp in many ways :)
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2017-12-31T04:57:29Z pransninja: I use my lips to explain lisp.
2017-12-31T04:57:33Z pransninja: But that is a different story.
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2017-12-31T07:15:20Z earl-ducaine: Hey Lisponauts!  Trying to determine what the potential difference might be between sb-int:fixnump and a naively defined (defun fixnump (object) (typep object 'fixnum))
2017-12-31T07:16:22Z earl-ducaine: I looked at the SBCL code, but it's not easy to decern what it accomplished appart from the usual SBCL coldboot-ish machinery.
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2017-12-31T07:17:42Z |3b|: probably mostly speed, particularly if you don't inline your function
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2017-12-31T07:19:32Z beach: earl-ducaine: TYPEP can be quite expensive.  FIXNUMP is just a matter of testing the last bit of the work and return true if it is 0.
2017-12-31T07:20:18Z |3b|: built-in one is also more likely to take advantage of type-inference in surrounding code, which would be lost by full function call
2017-12-31T07:20:20Z earl-ducaine: Ah, that makes sense.  Thanks beach |3b|
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2017-12-31T07:21:07Z |3b|: (probably smart enough to use it if the typep was inlined though)
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2017-12-31T07:21:22Z beach: Inlined or even just a compiler macro.
2017-12-31T07:22:15Z beach: Either way, (TYPEP OBJECT 'FIXNUM) will ultimately have to do what FIXNUMP does.
2017-12-31T07:23:08Z |3b|: also whether the compiler knows if it can skip the call entirely if you ignore the results, since it has no side effects, and some things like that
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2017-12-31T07:30:14Z |3b|: probably most important difference is that typep is a supported function, so less likely to be randomly changed/removed by sbcl devs :)
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2017-12-31T07:48:46Z beach: Hmm, I should learn to use reader conditionals.  I mean, I know the way they work, but I don't naturally think of them for structuring my code.
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2017-12-31T07:50:07Z beach: For example, I need to test SICL systems implementing things like the package dictionary, but I want to test it in some host environment like SBCL.  Obviously, there are tons of package-lock violations then.  I think perhaps reader conditional can help here.
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2017-12-31T07:52:21Z beach: Even doing something like (defpackage package (...) (:metaclass built-in-class)) won't work in a host environment, but I can wrap the :metaclass part in a reader conditional.
2017-12-31T07:52:47Z beach: Er, DEFCLASS, not DEFPACKAGE.  Sorry.
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2017-12-31T08:23:10Z beach: If I have an ASFD system for the SYMBOL dictionary and another for the PACKAGE dictionary, then invariably, they are going to depend on each other.  I think I'll make a common system for both.  Does that seem like a good idea?
2017-12-31T08:24:04Z Shinmera: Well you can't have cyclic dependencies, so what other choice do you have?
2017-12-31T08:24:27Z beach: Yeah, exactly my conclusion.  Thanks for confirming.
2017-12-31T08:24:48Z beach: I have a cold, so I am not necessarily thinking clearly. :)
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2017-12-31T08:28:38Z mfiano: Is it good practice to use EXPORT in a macro which generates hundreds of functions that you want external?
2017-12-31T08:28:49Z mfiano: I have never used it manually before :)
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2017-12-31T08:29:21Z Shinmera: mfiano: https://github.com/Shinmera/3d-vectors/blob/master/ops.lisp#L567
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2017-12-31T08:29:50Z mfiano: Shinmera: That's quite funny actually, because I am using it for the exact same thing.
2017-12-31T08:29:53Z mfiano: swizzles
2017-12-31T08:30:12Z Shinmera: I still don't understand why you're replicating my library instead of extending it
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2017-12-31T08:30:36Z mfiano: Serves different purpose, and was born before yours
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2017-12-31T08:32:32Z Shinmera: Don't see why it couldn't be extended to serve your purpose too
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2017-12-31T08:33:02Z mfiano: It's not about extension, it's about implementation.
2017-12-31T08:33:23Z Shinmera: Meaning what?
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2017-12-31T08:37:26Z mfiano: It was implemented almost 2 years before your first commit, and was designed for critical physics simulations outside of game development until it was renamed and served as part of my game development toolbox. Afterwards a few such as yours and Baggers' rtg-math showed up.
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2017-12-31T08:38:24Z mfiano: I am only now adding swizzling because I am removing a custom accessor system I've been using, and wanted to integrate it into varjo to have the same API on the CPU and GPU
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2017-12-31T08:38:52Z Shinmera: I see.
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2017-12-31T08:39:57Z parjanya: shouldn’t (describe 'x) always give the docstring of a function?
2017-12-31T08:40:28Z Shinmera: There's more things that can be named by symbols than functions.
2017-12-31T08:41:33Z parjanya: I would hope my question to presuppose 'x to be a function
2017-12-31T08:41:46Z dmiles: well all the docs related to the symbol is always nice (varible, function, class, etc)
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2017-12-31T08:42:35Z Shinmera: Also, describe can do pretty much whatever it wants.
2017-12-31T08:42:40Z parjanya: how odd, sometimes it does show the docstring, sometimes not
2017-12-31T08:43:01Z parjanya: is there a way to squeeze the docstring out by force? : o )
2017-12-31T08:43:10Z Shinmera: Why not just use DOCUMENTATION
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2017-12-31T08:44:26Z parjanya: that does work, tx Shinmera
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2017-12-31T08:47:24Z mfiano: Shinmera: I will give you some feedback though. It would be nice if you also defined SETF swizzles (or maybe I'm just blind), and you also support the other 2 GLSL masks.
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2017-12-31T08:48:18Z Shinmera: mfiano: Right, places are missing. What do you mean by the other 2 masks?
2017-12-31T08:48:26Z mfiano: "there are 3 sets of swizzle masks. You can use xyzw, rgba (for colors), or stpq (for texture coordinates)."
2017-12-31T08:48:32Z Shinmera: Ah
2017-12-31T08:48:39Z Shinmera: I avoided those on purpose
2017-12-31T08:49:30Z mfiano: I am avoiding SETF too, I think. I don't really need it, and it has some additional tricky bits
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2017-12-31T10:32:49Z dmiles: am i correct to assume most compiled lisp programs do not need eval or macroexpansion at runtime ?
2017-12-31T10:33:11Z dmiles: That is, the compiler eliminates the need to do that
2017-12-31T10:33:56Z Shinmera: Yes
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2017-12-31T10:34:33Z Shinmera: Well, it's less that the compiler eliminates the need to do that, it's more that the cases where using eval or compile at runtime are hard to justify.
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2017-12-31T10:34:54Z Shinmera: In the overwhelming majority of cases there are better ways to solve the problem than eval.
2017-12-31T10:35:37Z dmiles: Well assuming user code uses eval.. most of the time the compiler can still eliminate if in the end
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2017-12-31T10:36:12Z dmiles: (appart from the obvious eval from string)
2017-12-31T10:37:37Z Shinmera: Huh?
2017-12-31T10:38:06Z Shinmera: No it cannot?
2017-12-31T10:38:47Z beach: dmiles: If the application calls EVAL, it's because the code to be evaluated is not known at compile time, so it has to happen at run time.
2017-12-31T10:38:57Z dmiles: well forget that last question it is probably a red herring.  the real reason i am asking to is if after compiling i should be able to expect that i can completely macroexpect things away at compile time
2017-12-31T10:39:23Z Shinmera: What?
2017-12-31T10:39:24Z dmiles: macroepect/macroexpand
2017-12-31T10:39:31Z beach: dmiles: You are confused.
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2017-12-31T10:41:13Z dmiles: on the side eliminating eval is not any more special than eliminating funcall or apply in most cases outside of (evaluating a string supplied by a user)
2017-12-31T10:41:28Z beach: It has nothing to do with a string.
2017-12-31T10:41:45Z dmiles: i know that obviously
2017-12-31T10:41:47Z beach: EVAL takes a Common Lisp expression and that expression can be built at run time without any strings involved.
2017-12-31T10:42:39Z dmiles: the string case would be the exception to my question
2017-12-31T10:43:42Z dmiles: i am asking "outside of some program that wanted to read a string with a lisp reader and eval it"
2017-12-31T10:43:59Z beach: Yes, and I am telling you that strings have nothing to do with it.
2017-12-31T10:44:28Z dmiles: good, so do you understand what i am asking then?
2017-12-31T10:44:31Z beach: An expression can be constructed at run time without any strings, and if the application programmer needs to evaluate such an expression, then it must happen at run time.
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2017-12-31T10:45:08Z phoe: (let ((expr (list (read) (read) (read)))) (eval expr))
2017-12-31T10:45:18Z aeth: eval(foo) in languages with eval() is like (eval (read-from-string foo)) in Lisp
2017-12-31T10:45:42Z phoe: that's simple, because READ reads bytes from standard-input, so, technically, from streams
2017-12-31T10:45:46Z beach: The answer to your question is "no".  It is not just in the case of a string that the evaluation must happen at run time, simply because there are other ways of building expressions at run time, and if they are not known at compile time, they must be evaluated at run time.
2017-12-31T10:45:54Z random-nick: dmiles: well, it is common for people to include a Read Eval Print Loop in their program, so some programs do use "eval"
2017-12-31T10:46:40Z dmiles: beach: good example, indeed it may not be possible to eliminate
2017-12-31T10:46:47Z phoe: but (let ((expr (list (random-operator) (random-argument) (random-argument)))) (eval expr))
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2017-12-31T10:47:02Z Shinmera: Eliminating eval is a pointless optimisation anyway
2017-12-31T10:47:39Z Shinmera: Either the user knows what they're doing and it has to happen at runtime, or they don't and they should eat the slowdown.
2017-12-31T10:47:40Z phoe: where random-operator can have arbitrary side effects
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2017-12-31T10:48:39Z dmiles: many case i do eliminate eval like  (eval (cons 'fn args))
2017-12-31T10:48:50Z phoe: that's funcall
2017-12-31T10:48:53Z phoe: or rather, apply
2017-12-31T10:49:14Z dmiles: right its an apply that ends up gettign eliminated
2017-12-31T10:49:31Z Shinmera: But whatever for
2017-12-31T10:49:33Z Shinmera: What's the point
2017-12-31T10:49:39Z phoe: ...but hey hey hey
2017-12-31T10:49:42Z beach: dmiles: No sane application programmer would write that, so it is pointless (as Shinmera says) to optimize it.
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2017-12-31T10:49:47Z dmiles: the point is there is not reason to nnot eliminate it
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2017-12-31T10:49:54Z phoe: FN doesn't need to be a function
2017-12-31T10:49:55Z Shinmera: There is, it's a waste of your time
2017-12-31T10:50:01Z phoe: it can be a macro or worse, a special operator
2017-12-31T10:50:08Z Shinmera: Also, EVAL has to happen in a null-lexenv
2017-12-31T10:50:17Z beach: dmiles: Yes, there is.  It is called "software maintenance".  The more pointless code you have, the harder it is to maintain.
2017-12-31T10:50:18Z Shinmera: So if you try to "inline" the expression you're compiling wrong
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2017-12-31T10:51:00Z phoe: dmiles: you basically need to have a really damn good reason to call EVAL in runtime
2017-12-31T10:51:05Z dmiles: i already have the code that eliminates that (time is done) .. what i am trying to decide is if i can expect that i will not need to macroexpand as well
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2017-12-31T10:51:25Z phoe: a REPL or RPC inside your program is such a reason.
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2017-12-31T10:51:33Z phoe: why would you write EVAL in your code in the first place?
2017-12-31T10:51:37Z Shinmera: eval needs to do minimal compilation, which includes macroexpansion
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2017-12-31T10:52:06Z phoe: also https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=EVAL#EVAL
2017-12-31T10:52:48Z dmiles: phoe i dont have eval but i have funcall and apply..
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2017-12-31T10:53:06Z dmiles: i eliminate them with 4 lines of code: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/funcall.pl#L140-L143
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2017-12-31T10:53:52Z phoe: oooooh, you're implementing CL.
2017-12-31T10:54:09Z phoe: There's no simple and easy way of implementing EVAL via FUNCALL and APPLY.
2017-12-31T10:54:34Z phoe: to sum things up really fast and messy, you need to have the compiler at your disposal to properly implement EVAL.
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2017-12-31T10:54:57Z Shinmera: What was the reason that eval is different from (compile NIL `(lambda () () ,expr))?
2017-12-31T10:54:57Z phoe: because of macros and special operators that may appear in the eval'd expression.
2017-12-31T10:55:12Z Shinmera: Err (funcall (compile NIL `(lambda () () ,expr)))
2017-12-31T10:55:28Z phoe: Shinmera: why the double () ()?
2017-12-31T10:55:40Z Shinmera: phoe: Avoid code being interpreted as a declaration
2017-12-31T10:55:49Z phoe: also, you may have closures in there that COMPILE will catch
2017-12-31T10:55:49Z dmiles: right Shinmera, makes my point that eval is not that special
2017-12-31T10:55:51Z Shinmera: I remember there being a subtle difference.
2017-12-31T10:55:58Z phoe: Shinmera: thanks, you're correct.
2017-12-31T10:56:02Z beach: dmiles: It is very special indeed.
2017-12-31T10:56:19Z beach: And your optimization won't work.
2017-12-31T10:56:31Z Shinmera: dmiles: I made no such point
2017-12-31T10:57:08Z dmiles: the orignal question was "outside of the case of EVAL and some whereness of trying to eval at runtime" .. x y z
2017-12-31T10:57:09Z beach: dmiles: Because the arguments can contain arbitrary expressions that need to be evaluated before the function can be applied.  This is elementary in implementing Common Lisp.  You really should have a look at Lisp in Small Pieces.
2017-12-31T10:57:47Z dmiles: i was trying to avoid discussing eval :P but i accidently brought it upo in the question
2017-12-31T10:58:53Z dmiles: the question was "outside the case of EVAL, is there a reason one might have to macroexpand at runtime"
2017-12-31T10:59:10Z random-nick: well using LOAD usually leads to evaluation
2017-12-31T10:59:44Z Shinmera: dmiles: Someone calls macroexpand
2017-12-31T10:59:44Z beach: dmiles: Yes, when the programmer calls MACROEXPAND.
2017-12-31T10:59:50Z beach: Heh!
2017-12-31T11:00:05Z dmiles: beach: true!
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2017-12-31T11:00:41Z Shinmera: Alternatively if someone manually calls the macro function of a macro definition.
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2017-12-31T11:01:13Z phoe: ^
2017-12-31T11:01:52Z phoe: also the reader's #.
2017-12-31T11:01:58Z phoe: although this directly calls eval
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2017-12-31T11:04:11Z dmiles: phoe: yeah, though mostly i make a little lambda that returns that experession with load-time-value for things liek that if they dont seem constant
2017-12-31T11:04:55Z dmiles: like a #.(random 666)
2017-12-31T11:05:27Z beach: That is perfectly constant at compile-time.
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2017-12-31T11:07:11Z dmiles: yeah, though perhaps two #.(make-string )s
2017-12-31T11:07:53Z dmiles: (that make the same string bu the programmer expects them to not be 'eq)
2017-12-31T11:16:07Z beach: So #.(random 666) is first an example of something that is NOT constant at compile time, and then you agree that it IS?
2017-12-31T11:16:19Z dmiles: ok so i think the answer to my question is: "except in the cases that the programmer is forcing the need for eval, (yet they can still use apply/funcall), except the case the programmer is using macroexpand (or  evaluating the macroexpransion with hopes of evaluating it next), you should be able able to complle programs well enough that you will not need to relly on preserving your enviroment
2017-12-31T11:16:20Z dmiles: you compiled with"
2017-12-31T11:16:55Z random-nick: shouldn't everything evaluated with #. be constant at compile-time since it is evaluated at read-time?
2017-12-31T11:17:12Z beach: dmiles: Oh, you never have to do that.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec says so.
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2017-12-31T11:17:45Z dmiles: beach: really i assumed the lisp reader gave me a random number and i compile things never knowing the number ws random
2017-12-31T11:18:36Z beach: It gives you one number.  So it is constant.  But you gave this as an example of something that is NOT constant.  And then you changed your mind.
2017-12-31T11:19:57Z dmiles: i was under the assumption it related to load-time-value (but i think that assumption was wrong)
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2017-12-31T11:21:38Z dmiles: if the users code contained  (read-from-string ".(random 666) ")  that might be differnt
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2017-12-31T11:21:44Z beach: Maybe you don't care whether your implementation is conforming or not, but if you do, I think you are in for A LOT of work.
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2017-12-31T11:24:22Z dmiles: well i been working for 3 months  it.. i have one month left in budget to be able to run 2 differnt applications.. then if i can get that done i get 2 more months to run/compile 2 more applications.. then after that i get to worry about conformance and passing the ansi-tests
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2017-12-31T11:30:32Z dmiles: so my intial goal is compile and run "DAYDREAMER" and (PTTP or "Knowledge Machine")   by end of January
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2017-12-31T11:31:55Z dmiles: conformance, maybe by end of year
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2017-12-31T11:39:18Z flip214: Xach's report of ASDF 3.3.1 breakage in newer SBCL includes a few non-ASDF related things, AFAICT.
2017-12-31T11:39:23Z flip214: for example, http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-25/failure-report/cl-sendmail.html#cl-sendmail says
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2017-12-31T11:39:44Z flip214: ;   Derived type of CHILD is (VALUES LIST &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type XMLS:NODE.
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2017-12-31T11:41:24Z beach: dmiles: Are you saying that someone is paying you to do this?
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2017-12-31T11:45:13Z dmiles: yes but C.O.D. only
2017-12-31T11:45:29Z dmiles: (cash on delivery)
2017-12-31T11:47:02Z Xach: flip214: that is due to xmls updates
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2017-12-31T11:51:39Z flip214: Xach: yeah. so QL tries to build systems even if any of the dependencies are known broken?
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2017-12-31T11:51:57Z Xach: flip214: yes.
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2017-12-31T11:52:36Z flip214: and re http://lispblog.xach.com/post/169109562413/fasl-package-pitfall: is the right solution a   (:depends-on #+project-b :project-b)  in the ASDF?
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2017-12-31T11:54:37Z dmiles: beach: i brought that up to say intitial priority is a little scewed
2017-12-31T11:57:44Z dmiles: but i am doing it backwards in hopes of being able to get paid durring the time of "A LOT of work"
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2017-12-31T12:01:22Z Xach: flip214: that's one option
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2017-12-31T12:09:25Z Xach: flip214: but then there's no point in conditionalizing
2017-12-31T12:09:33Z Xach: flip214: it's better to wholly commit or wholly abandon
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2017-12-31T12:58:55Z flip214: well, the idea is that if it existed during compilation, it'll do so after reloading the FASLs too
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2017-12-31T13:16:07Z Shinmera: flip214: That doesn't work
2017-12-31T13:16:12Z Shinmera: ASD files are not compiled.
2017-12-31T13:16:36Z Shinmera: So if you load b, load a, restart, load a, then a contains fasls with b in it, but the asd won't load b.
2017-12-31T13:19:14Z Shinmera: A "solution" would be to put #+b (ql:quickload :b) into the source files, except that'll give you nasal demons because recursive loading in ASDF is bad juju.
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2017-12-31T13:21:30Z jackdaniel: :weakly-depends-on was deprecated hm?
2017-12-31T13:22:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: I'm not sure, but I don't think it would help.
2017-12-31T13:23:16Z jackdaniel: ah, I've noticed the link right now, reading
2017-12-31T13:23:58Z Shinmera: More than weakly-depends-on, you'd need to be able to say that a component only gets loaded/compiled in the presence of a certain system.
2017-12-31T13:24:01Z Xach: flip214: I was wrong earlier, I didn't read your question right.
2017-12-31T13:24:36Z Xach: And the cache is only valid in the presence, too.
2017-12-31T13:25:05Z Xach: Similar to *features* issues
2017-12-31T13:25:14Z Xach: other *features* issues
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2017-12-31T13:26:57Z jackdaniel: well, I agree there is no good solution for that. If anything, before first use of b putting #+project-b (eval-when (…) (asdf:load-system :project-b))
2017-12-31T13:27:36Z jackdaniel: (not in asd file of course, but in dependencies.lisp or something like that
2017-12-31T13:27:38Z jackdaniel: )
2017-12-31T13:27:43Z Xach: jackdaniel: that seems like it would only load project-b when project-b is already loaded?
2017-12-31T13:27:44Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Except that's not a good idea either
2017-12-31T13:27:57Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: See what I wrote above
2017-12-31T13:28:17Z Shinmera: Xach: The idea of the snippet is to encode the fact that it was compiled with b in the fasl.
2017-12-31T13:28:19Z jackdaniel: Xach: no, because this form is READ during first load, so load-system
2017-12-31T13:28:43Z jackdaniel: is "saved" in fasl
2017-12-31T13:29:10Z Xach: jackdaniel: How does project-b get added to *features*? In my example, it is added by loading project-b.
2017-12-31T13:29:24Z Xach: that is, project-b adds itself.
2017-12-31T13:29:33Z jackdaniel: yes, it is added by loading project-b, which prepends :project-b to features
2017-12-31T13:29:42Z jackdaniel: then you load project-a, which has project-b in features (and compiles it)
2017-12-31T13:29:55Z Xach: Oh, I see now, thanks.
2017-12-31T13:29:57Z jackdaniel: during compiling project-a source code, it reads #+project-b form
2017-12-31T13:29:59Z jackdaniel: OK
2017-12-31T13:30:10Z Xach: So if project-b is coincidentally loaded, it becomes explicit.
2017-12-31T13:30:40Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: if you grok asdf enough you start to understand, that it's nasal deamons even without recursive load (as in – it does what it does)
2017-12-31T13:31:28Z Shinmera: There's a lesser and greater demons
2017-12-31T13:32:08Z jackdaniel: actually undefined consequences are always undefined, that was at least claim in the original article
2017-12-31T13:32:22Z jackdaniel: but yes, more "common" settings are more frequntly tested and hack-patched
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2017-12-31T13:42:44Z jackdaniel: Xach: fwiw, if you consider loading fasls that way, you may want to put (require 'asdf) before asdf:load-system in this chunk
2017-12-31T13:44:05Z Xach: I wouldn't consider it!! I depend on everything all the time!!
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2017-12-31T13:46:12Z Shinmera: Xach: Do you have info on which systems conflict with each other? As in, they can't both be loaded in the same instance
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2017-12-31T14:39:27Z scymtym: Xach: are you aware of any progress regarding cxml? i didn't hear back from dlichteblau yet (sent mail mid November, CCed you)
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2017-12-31T14:50:00Z beach: clhs export
2017-12-31T14:50:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2017-12-31T14:50:48Z beach: So export takes a designator for a list of symbols.  According to the glossary, that excludes a string or a list of strings if I read it correctly.  Am I right?
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2017-12-31T14:57:46Z scymtym: beach: assuming you mean the "designator" glossary entry, which part of the entry lets you conclude that?
2017-12-31T15:00:11Z beach: The "list designator" entry.
2017-12-31T15:00:19Z beach: clhs glossary/list designator
2017-12-31T15:00:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list_designator
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2017-12-31T15:01:57Z beach: So if I substitute SYMBOL for OBJECT, I get "a non-nil symbol (denoting a singleton list whose element is that non-nil symbol) or a proper list (denoting itself)".
2017-12-31T15:04:36Z scymtym: wouldn't that contradict the example (non-normative, of course)?
2017-12-31T15:04:53Z Bike: none of the examples pass export a string
2017-12-31T15:04:55Z beach: I guess I am on the right track, because SBCL rejects a string (which would be a symbol DESIGNATOR, but not a symbol, of course).
2017-12-31T15:05:14Z scymtym: sorry, misread the example
2017-12-31T15:05:38Z beach: What example?
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2017-12-31T15:05:57Z beach: Yes, I see.
2017-12-31T15:06:18Z beach: OK, thanks for the help.
2017-12-31T15:06:25Z scymtym: the EXPORT example. i thought it used a string which would become a singleton list containing a string. thus the question
2017-12-31T15:06:33Z beach: Yes, I got it.
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2017-12-31T15:08:34Z beach: By the way, I found a cute way of checking if something is a proper list.  No doubt I am not the first one to do that, but it's simple: (integerp (ignore-error (list-length list)))
2017-12-31T15:08:49Z beach: IGNORE-ERRORS
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2017-12-31T15:11:30Z beach now thinks he must be the only one who finds this cute.
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2017-12-31T15:12:14Z _death: list=3
2017-12-31T15:14:34Z Shinmera: beach: Why not just (null (cdr (last list)))
2017-12-31T15:14:37Z _death: (it works)
2017-12-31T15:14:45Z _death: Shinmera: circular lists
2017-12-31T15:15:03Z beach: clhs last
2017-12-31T15:15:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm
2017-12-31T15:15:12Z Shinmera: Ah.
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2017-12-31T15:15:56Z Shinmera: list-length having to track circular lists is indeed an interesting tidbit
2017-12-31T15:16:18Z beach: Yes, exactly.
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2017-12-31T15:43:50Z KZiemian: hello world
2017-12-31T15:43:59Z KZiemian: last time someone ask me
2017-12-31T15:44:11Z KZiemian: what is realy going on with this CLUS
2017-12-31T15:44:26Z KZiemian: why we try to make it, in other words
2017-12-31T15:44:50Z KZiemian: I forget that is much outdated mafiest paper
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2017-12-31T15:44:52Z beach: Now who would question that?
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2017-12-31T15:45:14Z beach: KZiemian: I am more interested in whether you received my suggestion.
2017-12-31T15:45:19Z KZiemian: beach: I don't reameber full nickname
2017-12-31T15:45:38Z KZiemian: beach: yes it is now Issue on GitHub
2017-12-31T15:45:52Z beach: OK.
2017-12-31T15:45:52Z KZiemian: beach: I recently read most of Issue
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2017-12-31T15:46:13Z KZiemian: beach: so I try to prevent it going to Oblivion
2017-12-31T15:46:27Z beach: OK.  It's the one about the reader macros.
2017-12-31T15:47:06Z KZiemian: beach: setting macro character, you mean?
2017-12-31T15:47:12Z beach: Yes.
2017-12-31T15:47:25Z beach: The fact that the function signature is barely mentioned.
2017-12-31T15:47:40Z KZiemian: beach: good, it is on GitHub and I try to put some flesh to it
2017-12-31T15:47:51Z beach: Great!
2017-12-31T15:47:52Z KZiemian: okey
2017-12-31T15:48:38Z KZiemian: CLUS manifesto is here (outdated in many points after a year)
2017-12-31T15:48:45Z KZiemian: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/blob/master/paper.pdf
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2017-12-31T15:59:25Z beach: KZiemian: I don't know if you have thought about this issue yet:  There is a general explanation in the Common Lisp HyperSpec that if a dictionary page mentions an object type, and nothing explicit is said on that page about what happens if the type is violated, then the consequences are undefined (or perhaps unspecified, I don't remember) if it is.
2017-12-31T15:59:27Z beach: I think many people incorrectly assume that en error will be signaled.  It would be worthwhile to remind the reader of such dictionary pages of these consequences.  It could be in the form of a link to the general page (with an appropriate text), or a direct statement of what happens if the type is violated.
2017-12-31T16:02:17Z beach: clhs append
2017-12-31T16:02:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
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2017-12-31T16:02:51Z beach: Take that one for example.  It says "Exceptional Situations: None".
2017-12-31T16:03:23Z beach: But if the arguments are not proper lists, then the consequences are undefined.
2017-12-31T16:04:34Z beach: clhs 1.4.4.3
2017-12-31T16:04:34Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2017-12-31T16:04:55Z beach: Notice: "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
2017-12-31T16:04:58Z KZiemian: beach: I had no idea about it
2017-12-31T16:05:03Z beach: There you go.
2017-12-31T16:06:33Z KZiemian: beach: If I had time, I put today some explenation about CLUS current aims and problem
2017-12-31T16:07:12Z KZiemian: beach: to make today state more clear
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2017-12-31T16:07:35Z KZiemian: beach: I maked note about this problem from you statement
2017-12-31T16:07:42Z beach: Great!
2017-12-31T16:08:09Z KZiemian: beach: I make GitHub or send to community, whatever will see more appropriate
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2017-12-31T16:11:26Z beach: KZiemian: If you want to make a specific note on each entry concerned, I can help you with the text for that.  Like, for this one, I would say something like:
2017-12-31T16:11:35Z beach: Note from the CLUS maintainer:  While this page explicitly says that there are no exceptional situations, notice that section 1.4.4.3 implies that, if the lists (all arguments except the last) are not proper lists, the consequences are undefined.
2017-12-31T16:12:13Z KZiemian: beach: Thank you :)
2017-12-31T16:13:28Z beach: ... and if you compile a list of dictionary entries that need to be amended, I can work on such a list, and create specific notes.
2017-12-31T16:13:51Z beach: What I won't do is the markup. :)
2017-12-31T16:15:21Z KZiemian: beach: When I start to understand direction in which CLUS is going now enough to make this come true I will contact you
2017-12-31T16:15:48Z KZiemian: beach: now CLUS is for me like a maze, which have one path that I more or less understand
2017-12-31T16:16:37Z KZiemian: beach: I walk that path and clean some mess but don't deare to probe others
2017-12-31T16:16:51Z KZiemian: that will be my new year resolution
2017-12-31T16:16:59Z KZiemian: understand CLUS more
2017-12-31T16:18:26Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2017-12-31T16:21:52Z loke: Happy newyear Lisp!
2017-12-31T16:23:51Z beach: You too loke.
2017-12-31T16:24:07Z KZiemian: okey
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2017-12-31T16:24:41Z KZiemian: I put the best explenation of CLUS state that I can
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2017-12-31T16:25:20Z KZiemian: on the Issue of CCLDoc, to make it more clear to CCL people
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2017-12-31T16:25:21Z beach: loke: Oh, it's already past midnight where you are!  Nice!
2017-12-31T16:25:28Z KZiemian: https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc/issues/14
2017-12-31T16:27:23Z beach: KZiemian: Before you put any of your own notes into the CLUS, you should have them reviewed by some native speakers of English, or possibly by me.
2017-12-31T16:28:01Z beach: phoe would go a good job as well.  And flip214, and ...
2017-12-31T16:28:14Z beach: would DO a good job.
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2017-12-31T16:30:12Z KZiemian: beach: you mean true CLUS, not GitHub Issue?
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2017-12-31T16:30:24Z beach: Yes.  I don't care about the issues.
2017-12-31T16:31:19Z KZiemian: beach: I don't care too much about it too. Yes CLUS is serious matter, I don't dare put notes in it without chacking
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2017-12-31T16:31:33Z beach: Good.
2017-12-31T16:32:00Z KZiemian: half serious, we need now member of CLUS colaboration
2017-12-31T16:32:22Z beach: I thought I was trying to help.  No?
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2017-12-31T16:32:37Z KZiemian: English checker for polish-like input ;)
2017-12-31T16:33:13Z KZiemian: beach: if you will have time that will be great :)
2017-12-31T16:33:32Z KZiemian: beach: unfortunetly I don't know when CLUS will be back on the track
2017-12-31T16:33:38Z beach: I can't be a regular contributor, but certainly if you ask for specific help, I'll help out.
2017-12-31T16:33:52Z KZiemian: beach: enough to start adding some notes
2017-12-31T16:34:20Z KZiemian: beach: yes I know, but every bit of help is enough
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2017-12-31T16:38:53Z KZiemian: happy new year!
2017-12-31T16:39:11Z KZiemian: this will be a 60 year of Lisp!
2017-12-31T16:39:29Z beach: It's off to a bad start here, though, with storm Carmen coming in.
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2017-12-31T16:41:32Z KZiemian: beach: ouu, I don't notice that. Here our main problem is that roads are wet.
2017-12-31T16:42:00Z beach: Yeah, well, you are a bit further away from the Atlantic.
2017-12-31T16:42:15Z KZiemian: hopefully 60 bitrhday of Lisp be a good year to it :)
2017-12-31T16:42:32Z beach: Let's hope so.
2017-12-31T16:43:22Z KZiemian: beach: hope that you will be ok after Carmen go out
2017-12-31T16:43:30Z KZiemian: happy new year all!
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2017-12-31T19:45:15Z ebrasca: phoe: Happhy new year.
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2017-12-31T19:47:44Z ebrasca: I have added initial for fat32 reading in mezzano.
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2017-12-31T19:52:42Z shka: ebrasca: cheers!
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2017-12-31T20:06:29Z earl-ducaine: ebrasca: just saw the fat32 commit.  Looks quite awesome!
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2017-12-31T20:07:30Z shka: who knows how to extend metabang-bind ?
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2017-12-31T20:15:55Z phoe: ebrasca: congrats!
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2017-12-31T20:25:40Z phoe: Is there any CL library for parsing Javascript source?
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2017-12-31T20:26:30Z phoe: Googling tells me that https://github.com/akapav/js is rather popular.
2017-12-31T20:27:36Z phoe: And I think I'll try using it.
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2017-12-31T20:29:56Z phoe: Yes, it seems to work.
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2017-12-31T20:36:17Z ebrasca: Is it hard to make one assambler for some CPU architecture like POWER9?
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2017-12-31T20:38:55Z shka: ebrasca: it seems that it is job that single person can handle, but i am no expert whatsoever
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2017-12-31T20:42:30Z ebrasca: shka: I like to have mezzano with talos2 suport.
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2017-12-31T20:43:34Z shka: talos2 being…?
2017-12-31T20:43:42Z ebrasca: POWER9 cpu
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2017-12-31T20:44:32Z ebrasca: https://raptorcs.com/content/TL2B02/intro.html
2017-12-31T20:45:11Z ebrasca: I have buy 1 with 2cpu 8 cores each
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2017-12-31T20:56:36Z shka: ebrasca: i really can't help, but i love the idea
2017-12-31T20:56:46Z shka: power is currently the open architecture
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2017-12-31T20:57:05Z shka: that alone makes it interesting
2017-12-31T20:57:24Z ebrasca: It have some cpu GC.
2017-12-31T20:58:58Z ebrasca: shka: Maybe you can help me with fat32 suport in mezzano.
2017-12-31T20:59:33Z ebrasca: I have low experience with big projects.
2017-12-31T20:59:45Z shka: busy with other stuff, but that cpu GC is fascinating
2017-12-31T21:00:01Z shka: i thought that those ideas are long gone
2017-12-31T21:00:44Z ebrasca: I only have found 1 line referencing GC in IBM documentation.
2017-12-31T21:03:14Z ebrasca: shka: What project are you working on?
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2017-12-31T21:03:55Z shka: cl-ds, mostly, i am trying to contribute to documentation-utils
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2017-12-31T21:08:56Z borodust: 'happy-new-year!
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2017-12-31T21:11:49Z ebrasca don't understand how to write documentation.
2017-12-31T21:12:06Z shka: don't ask me about it…
2017-12-31T21:14:00Z ebrasca: shka: If you like I can ask you about documentation.
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2017-12-31T21:14:10Z shka: no
2017-12-31T21:14:11Z shka: just no
2017-12-31T21:14:29Z ebrasca: lol
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2017-12-31T21:14:52Z ebrasca: ok
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2017-12-31T21:15:50Z pjb: Write documentation like programs.  Write down specifications for the documentation, make an analysis, and write the implementation.  Test it on real programmers.
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2017-12-31T21:20:58Z ebrasca only understand to write , eval and loop.
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2017-12-31T21:22:10Z pjb: You have a programmer process that needs to take specifications and module documentations as input, and produce code as output.  You need to write the documentations. The specification of the documentation is that it provides good data to the programmer process so he's able to produce good code from the specifications.
2017-12-31T21:22:19Z pjb: It's a trivial meta-programming problem.
2017-12-31T21:22:23Z pjb: (trivial for a lisper).
2017-12-31T21:22:46Z phoe: (make-instance 'standard-programmer)
2017-12-31T21:23:03Z shka: architecture is very poorly designed and not portable at all!
2017-12-31T21:23:16Z phoe: shka: you mean power9?
2017-12-31T21:23:21Z shka: no
2017-12-31T21:23:21Z ebrasca: (make-documentation scr-code)
2017-12-31T21:23:30Z shka: i mean humans!
2017-12-31T21:23:43Z phoe: :D
2017-12-31T21:23:55Z shka: you can't write reliable code for that platform
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2017-12-31T21:24:11Z pjb: You can aim.
2017-12-31T21:24:44Z pjb: it is even possible to write code that will produce correct results when run on buggy and failing processors.
2017-12-31T21:25:05Z ebrasca: pjb: do you mean human brain architecture?
2017-12-31T21:25:14Z pjb: Even human brains, yes.
2017-12-31T21:25:31Z pjb: For human brains, there's even an easy solution:  take a statistical approach.
2017-12-31T21:25:45Z pjb: Then you just let HR to prune the incompetent programmers.
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2017-12-31T21:27:39Z pjb: The lesson here is that programming doesn't involve computers at all.  The job of programmers can be applied on any kind of systems, everywhere.
2017-12-31T21:29:32Z shka: well, i always argue that programming is very much humanist job
2017-12-31T21:30:15Z ebrasca: I think it is more math job.
2017-12-31T21:30:22Z shka: besides
2017-12-31T21:30:37Z shka: pjb: what if YOU are faulty processor as well? :-)
2017-12-31T21:30:57Z shka: ebrasca: it is, sometimes
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2017-12-31T21:31:24Z pjb: Of course, there's a tendency to move processes to hardware computers, and the more so when AI increases.  But you can do your job with people when you don't have hardware, or when you need more human intelligence (cf. eg. the Mechanical Turk).
2017-12-31T21:31:40Z pjb: shka: that's why you need to write tests!
2017-12-31T21:31:58Z pjb: You don't test the program you write, you test your understanding of the problem!
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2017-12-31T21:32:30Z shka: well, regarding lisp
2017-12-31T21:32:56Z shka: is there some sort of hook that can launch function on system loading?
2017-12-31T21:33:09Z pjb: depending on the implementation.
2017-12-31T21:33:16Z pjb: ccl has several of them.
2017-12-31T21:33:23Z p_l: shka: ASDF has hooks, rest is implementation-dependant
2017-12-31T21:33:24Z ebrasca: shka: sbcl have some script mode.
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2017-12-31T21:33:45Z shka: ok, whatever
2017-12-31T21:33:53Z shka: i can live without
2017-12-31T21:34:32Z ebrasca: You can install stumpwm and start all your lisp code with it.
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2017-12-31T22:23:01Z cryptomarauder: happy new years everybody
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2017-12-31T22:33:12Z parjanya: happy new year :)
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2017-12-31T22:43:08Z phoe: gaaaah, I love dealing with things like (mapcar #'cadr (caddr (caadr foo)))
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2017-12-31T22:44:25Z pierpa: (NREVERSE (LIST 'YEAR 'NEW (IF (OR (EVENP (NTH-VALUE 5 (GET-DECODED-TIME))) T) 'HAPPY 'SO-SO) 'A 'HAVE))
2017-12-31T22:45:15Z Shinmera: No need to scream
2017-12-31T22:45:44Z pierpa: it's not me, my CL screams all the time
2017-12-31T22:46:23Z Shinmera: There's *print-case*
2017-12-31T22:46:39Z pierpa: but I like it natural
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2017-12-31T22:53:45Z phoe: any case is natural case
2017-12-31T22:53:50Z phoe: since CL by default upcases anything
2017-12-31T22:54:07Z phoe: unless, uh, you know
2017-12-31T22:54:08Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/string-pokemonize
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2017-12-31T23:00:15Z Bike: good job writing the source code like that
2017-12-31T23:01:29Z oleo: happy new year all
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2017-12-31T23:08:05Z Xach: Shinmera: conflict as in package names?
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2017-12-31T23:18:43Z Shinmera: Xach: Yes
2017-12-31T23:19:05Z Shinmera: Also, I hope everyone will have a good year.
2017-12-31T23:19:30Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't keep track of that right now. I think it would be useful and interesting, though.
2017-12-31T23:19:35Z Xach: I think qlmapper could help anyone try to do it.
2017-12-31T23:19:42Z phoe: Bike: I didn't write it like that
2017-12-31T23:19:52Z phoe: it was ran through string-pokemonize
2017-12-31T23:20:02Z phoe: s/ran/run
2017-12-31T23:20:10Z Shinmera: Xach: Don't you run into that problem when you test-compile stuff?
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2017-12-31T23:24:35Z Bike: writing, having ghostwritten, whichever
2017-12-31T23:25:16Z phoe: Bike: well, thanks
2017-12-31T23:25:38Z phoe: though anyone can now run their source code through string-pokemonize and only make minor modifications to compatibility
2017-12-31T23:25:41Z phoe: and it should work
2017-12-31T23:26:33Z krwq: Hey, does anyone know if there is an easy way to uninstall sbcl installed from sources?
2017-12-31T23:26:53Z Shinmera: krwq: it's called `rm -r`
2017-12-31T23:27:27Z krwq: Shinmera: do i just remove /usr/local/bin/sbcl* or anything else?
2017-12-31T23:28:23Z Shinmera: lib/sbcl as well
2017-12-31T23:28:46Z Shinmera: and share/man/man1/sbcl.1
2017-12-31T23:29:52Z krwq: thank you Shinmera
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2017-12-31T23:36:53Z Xach: Shinmera: no
2017-12-31T23:37:01Z Xach: Shinmera: I load each thing one at a time in its own session
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2017-12-31T23:37:16Z Xach: in a freshly spawned sbcl subprocess
2017-12-31T23:37:23Z Xach: so fresh so clean
2017-12-31T23:38:06Z Shinmera: Xach: Oh, alright. For some reason I remembered that you loaded everything at once somehow
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2017-12-31T23:41:16Z Xach: Shinmera: I think I tried that once and it doesn't get very far.
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2017-12-31T23:48:58Z phoe: oh god
2017-12-31T23:49:04Z phoe: (mapcar (lambda (y) (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons (car x) (cddr x))) y)) (mapcar #'cadr (caddr (caadr list))))
2017-12-31T23:49:07Z phoe: time to go to sleep
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2017-12-31T23:52:27Z Shinmera: TBH I almost never find mapcar+lambda easier to read than loop
2017-12-31T23:54:52Z phoe: Shinmera: I got a parse tree from parse-js and this line above is meant to remove all the unnecessary trash from it, leaving just a list of lists containing the data I seek.
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2017-12-31T23:58:55Z TMA: OTOH writing mapcar+lambda is easier. I do not need to reread the hyperspec to find out whether I should use OF, ON, OVER, IN, ACROSS, or FORTHWITH-WHEREAS-NOTWITHSTANDING :)
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2017-12-31T23:59:58Z Shinmera: TMA: I don't need to do that either